Our next speaker is going to be Dr. Jerry Stucca. Jerry, I'm not sure how much of an introduction I dare give. I'd like to just continue on and say that Dr. Stucca is a native of North Dakota from Cooperstown, North Dakota. Practitioner in the Cooperstown Veterinary Clinic for quite a few years, Extension Veterinarian for Kansas State University, and now more recently a Senior Technical Veterinarian for Pfizer. Jerry's been very good in sharing knowledge and information and we just really appreciate him coming to date and speaking to us about vaccination strategies for cattle. So, Charlie, I mean, Jerry, for that, will you lead us off now? Very good, Carl. Thank you very much. I noticed, Carl, we have you on camera as we're sitting here and I noticed that you un-picked up a cookie, okay? And it was really good. I will tell you that Linda provided me with coffee here, but there was one little protocol break, I think. Carl comes over with a donut and doesn't share it with the rest of us. So all we have is coffee with no donuts. So anyway, somebody let me down on this deal, Carl. I just wanted you to know. So let's begin with a discussion. What I've tried to do here is be very focused on the topic. And you'll see as we go through this, I want to leave some time at the end for some perhaps specific questions. My first slide here, though, is just to remind me of a couple things. Number one, and I could ask this question, but because we're not in a live audience, I won't, but just to remind me that not every facility that is used for cattle is the same, okay? So this is a picture of an East River portable corral that sometimes we get faced with. Now, can they work? Yes, they can. But when we're vaccinating cattle, sometimes we need something that's even more secure and a little bit less stressful to the cattle. So I thought I'd begin there. Okay. What I've done here is title this vaccination colon.  Because I did this because I think this tends to be one of the most confusing topics for our producers that there is. And at times I would argue it's confusing for veterinarians. It can be confusing for me. Just simply because of the number of different products, the number of different infectious diseases that we're trying to prevent. And sometimes we ask ourselves, what am I doing? Do I need to do anything at all? And is there actually a little bit of a logic thought process to this whole thing? So that's what we're going to try and do. So we're going to talk about vaccinology and we're going to talk at the end a little bit about the applied side of this vaccination business. I'm going to start with this slide and I do this almost all the time. And it's to remind and Charlie referred to this too when he was talking about bedding. This idea of the herds that we have are under our care and we're responsible for taking care of them. And actually vaccination fits under this stewardship responsibility. So I just wanted to put that in there and remind everybody this is not just simply something we do that makes us feel better. It's something that we do to take care of our animals. All right. Okay. I've also put this slide in there to remind everybody of the priorities of vaccination. If we simply are looking to vaccination to provide us protection against infectious diseases and our cattle will always be healthy, we are sadly mistaken because on the priority scale, vaccination for me fits at the bottom. Unless I pay attention to all these other things in terms of herd health and my herd, I'm going to fail. If I haven't paid attention to genetics as applies to health, to nutrition as it applies to health, to this whole colostrogenesis, passive transfer immunity from cow to calf, and the other stressors that can occur on my operation and simply depend on vaccination, I'm going to be really, really disappointed. Okay. This next set of pictures is just to kind of give you a feel for what that previous slide might look like. Okay. I have to pay attention to the body conditions score that cow that's going through gestation. I need to be aware of how much stress is on those calves when they're born. I need to be aware, Charlie referred to this earlier, of the weather stress on critters. Can that make a difference in herd health programs? Absolutely it can. And many of us have changed our calving seasons to a time that's less stressful for those cows when they're calving. Is there a stress at weaning? Absolutely. Is there a stress at transportation? Absolutely. Is there a huge stress when we put different groups of cattle together that sometimes we don't think about at the ranch level? Absolutely there is. Okay. Is there a stress when we talk about specific pathogens like BVD and persistently infected cattle? Yes there is. Can there be a stress on animals in the way we actually process them and handle them? Yes there can be. And all of those things, it's just simply a collage of pictures to remind us that vaccination doesn't cover some of those things. It simply doesn't. And if we ignore them we're going to be disappointed with our herd health programs because we can end up with calves that somehow look like this at a young age. Or sometimes even more importantly they end up in the feed yard and those are the ones that get sick. So vaccination is an important piece but unless we're focused on the rest of this herd health program we're going to be disappointed. Okay. So what I'm going to do for the next few minutes is talk about three things. I'm going to talk about the philosophy of vaccination. I'm going to talk about the science of vaccination and we're going to end up with a little bit of the logic or the applied side of vaccination. I only have one slide that deals with the philosophy of vaccination and I've tried to keep it very simple. And if you'd asked me this 25 years ago I'm not sure I could have lined this out for you. It really comes down to three questions. It comes down to is vaccination necessary. In other words is there a reasonable risk that a pathogen exposure might occur that's going to result in either clinical disease to my cattle or some type of economic loss to me. And a lot of times I'll pick anthrax for example. Does every animal in North Dakota need an anthrax vaccine? Well probably not. In herds where there's a risk of anthrax is there enough of a risk to my herd that I need to employ anthrax vaccine? Absolutely. So that's the first question we have to ask ourselves. Is there a reasonable risk to my herd of a pathogen exposure that results in an economic loss. Number two and this is where your veterinarian in this whole philosophy of vaccination. This is why your veterinarian is so important to you because he helps determine what's necessary. He also helps to determine this next bullet point. Is there a vaccine that's actually been demonstrated to work? There are I would say literally a thousand different vaccines on the market. Do they all have the same effectiveness? Actually they don't. Your veterinarian helps you in deciding what's the most effective vaccine to use for a risk that I think it's necessary to vaccinate against. There's a little bit of an addendum to that effective part. And all of us end up in this thought process. There is best. There is less than best and there's better than nothing. And I'll share with you a trial after just a little bit that helps to illustrate this. You know the best vaccination strategy in many cases is one where we give a primary vaccine and then 21 days later give or take. We boost those cattle with a second vaccine. Do we always do that? No we don't. So sometimes we settle for less than best and actually sometimes we settle for better than nothing. But we have to be aware that we've perhaps increased the risk of economic loss when we choose better than nothing rather than best. The third question that we have to ask ourselves is there a safety issue? In other words, does the vaccine that we're injecting into these cattle, at least the ones that go under the scanner in the muscle, does it produce minimal tissue reactivity and is there minimum systemic reactions to the vaccine? So number one, is it necessary? Number two, is it effective? And number three, is it safe to use? Okay. Switch a little bit gears and talk about the science part of this. The term vaccination is an interesting term in itself. And it was derived from some of the first vaccine that was used in humans against smallpox. And the reason this term came to be was that they actually used cowpox virus to vaccinate humans against smallpox. And the Latin term for cow was vaca. So that's how we've arrived at this vaccination term. And really what we're trying to do with the use of this term and the use of vaccination is to expose that immune system to a disease causing pathogen. It might be a virus, it might be a bacteria, it might actually be something else like a protozoan organism. So that the immune system learns to recognize it more quickly and with greater immune activity that had not been previously exposed. That's all we're trying to do. And if I need to say something now so I don't forget to say it later on. Most of the time a vaccination or an animal that's been immunized is not protected against infection. But what we're hoping for is that it's protected against clinical disease, or sometimes even subclinical disease, or that we're reducing the amount of bugs it might be spreading to another animal in the herd. Okay. So when we inject an animal with a vaccine we call that vaccination. It's really important for us to remember that vaccination does not necessarily mean immunization. Okay. There's two things that are required for immunization to occur. And by immunization I'm talking about the idea that the immune system has responded and we're providing some level of protection to that animal against that specific organism. Immunization requires, and this goes back to philosophy, an actual effective vaccine, number one, and then it requires an animal that's what we call immunocompetent. And maybe a better term would be immunocapable. In other words capable of responding to that vaccine that I've put into that animal. Okay. So just because I vaccinate, just because I inject doesn't mean that immunization has occurred. So in order, like I said before, for vaccination to equal immunization it actually requires an immune response. And an easy way to think about this is that really there's three things that has to happen in that animal, in that animal's immune system, in order for this immunization or an immune response to occur. The animal has to actually recognize, and that's what that cognition means, has to recognize that there is a pathogen, either a pathogen has infected the animal, or that we've exposed that animal to a vaccine that has a pathogen at it.  I've put an image in the lower left-hand corner of that slide. It's actually a highly magnified electron micrograph picture of a dendritic cell, or what we would call a, I'll just call it a vaccine recognizing and activation cell. So when I give a vaccine to an animal, it's a cell like that, that all of you that are listening here today have those cells in your own body. That cell is critical to that animal that I pictured on the right being able to amount an immune response. If that animal is undergoing some type of stress in its life, whether it be heat stress, whether it be weather stress, whether it be commingling stress, whether it be BVD stress, that cell that's pictured in the lower left-hand corner does not perform as well as it needs to. And my immune response is going to be much less productive or much less protective than it should be. So another important little principle to remember in this science discussion is that it's complicated. I have made it sound pretty simple and it's actually much more complicated than that, obviously. And it takes some time. There are occasions where we might be able to get a somewhat of a protective immune response in as short as three days with certain modified live vaccines given in certain places. But ordinarily it's going to take longer than that, maybe seven to ten days and longer with naive animals. And by just using the term naive, it tells you that that's an animal that's not been exposed before. And really in order to hit peak immune response or peak protection, perhaps, it may take as long as two to four weeks. And this is why when we talk about animal health and immunization and vaccination, we desperately want those vaccines to be put into those animals two to four weeks at least prior to when we think some of this exposure may actually take place.  But what we're trying to do is protect those animals that perhaps haven't been exposed yet and we might be able to kind of shut down that outbreak of maybe pneumonia that's actually occurring. But in truth, you're a little late, okay? All right. Sometimes we talk about these, and I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time on it, of giving multiple doses of vaccines. I mentioned earlier that we talk about booster doses of vaccines. When we're talking about booster doses, we, in many cases, we'll talk about a certain interval of time. It might be 14 days, might be 21, might be 28 days. And what we're simply trying to do is utilize that second dose to build that immune response to higher level and thus logically then perhaps providing a greater level of protection than simply that first dose can supply. And this is really critical when we're talking about killed vaccines. Most of the time we need that second dose to provide the level of protection that we're after, okay? And that second dose shortens the time and raises the level and hopefully reduces the amount of shedding that's occurring. There's one other dose of vaccine that we sometimes talk about, and that's just talking about revaccination, okay? I don't want to confuse the term booster dose and revaccination because sometimes they're a different thing. Sometimes we'll come into a group of calves maybe seven days after they've received the first dose. And especially in feedlot cattle, we might do this. We don't do it all the time, but we might. And that's what we're trying to do is provide a dose of vaccine to an animal that maybe didn't respond the first time because of too much stress in its system or because its nutritional level wasn't what it should be. And so we're just giving that animal a first chance to respond to a vaccine. So there's two different terminologies I'm using. One is revaccination, one is booster dose. And I think it's important to understand that there's a distinction between the two. Okay. So lastly, on this scientific discussion of immunology, immunization requires an effective vaccine and an animal that is capable of responding. We don't always follow that second one. If you read the label on vaccines, what do they talk about? Give this vaccine to what kind of an animal? Healthy animals, healthy, non-stressed animals. In many cases, we're giving it to animals on arrival at the feedlot and that's not what they are. They're stressed and they may not be all that healthy, okay? Okay. The next two slides kind of fits the second part of that philosophy discussion that we had. And I've just chosen this one trial to give you an idea of what an effective vaccine trial looks like. There have been many vaccine trials that have been done. Many of them are not very good. They're not very well-designed. They're not very applied necessarily. They don't always give us a good idea of whether a vaccine is effective or not. This one is very specific. This one is done to evaluate the effectiveness of different vaccines in pregnant animals and assessing whether that pregnant animal can be protected against BVD virus, okay? This is very specific, but I like this one because it was well done and gives us an idea of non-vaccinated versus three different vaccines, okay? Okay, so there's in this particular study, there's a control and those cattle receive no vaccines. The second treatment is a modified live. The third treatment is a modified, another modified live. And the fourth one was a killed vaccine. The second bullet point there where calves are vaccinated four times, that relates a little bit to best, less and best, and better than nothing. I would say this probably fits in the best vaccination strategy. If you follow along with the points here, these calves are vaccinated, weaning. And then four weeks later, it's what we call a booster dose. And then they were vaccinated again at a year of age and then again boostered four weeks later, okay? What they're trying to do in this trial is give the vaccines the very best chance of succeeding, all right? The next bullet point talks about how they, what we would call challenge the animals. How do they give BVD to these cattle? What they did is they found three persistently infected calves and for those of you that don't know what that means, it means that those calves have BVD in their system. They spread it, they shed it, and they're able to infect other animals that are pastured with them or housed with them and they will just spread that virus within that population. So they found three PI calves and they were infected with different strains of BVD and they put those calves in with those now pregnant heifers from day 68 to 126 days of gestation, okay? That's a perfect time to create what we would call a fetal infection in that pregnant animal that may result in a persistently infected calf or actually may result in an abortion. So let's just take a look at what happened with these pregnant heifers. The first thing they did was measure antibodies. And antibodies can tell us some things but there's some things that can't tell us. An antibody is just simply a way of sticking, I'll use this term, sticking a dipstick into an animal and kind of gives us an idea of whether the immune response or whether the immune system responded or not, okay? So what they did, they stuck the dipstick in these animals and they measured whether the animals responded or not. And sometimes companies can play games with this stuff and they'll tell you that if they have higher antibodies there's more protection versus those that have lower antibodies. It can work for some things, but for some viral infections it doesn't work very well because there's another arm of the immune system that this antibody-tighter test doesn't really tell us about. But let's look at this anyway. In this particular study, the Modified Live 2 group actually had the highest dipstick levels, if you will. The kill vaccine was second with the Modified Live 1 third in terms of ranking. Obviously the control cattle had no response at all because they weren't vaccinated. And that's well and good. It surprised me a little bit. I would have assumed that the kill vaccine was going to be actually number one. But let's perhaps look at some things that are more important to us. There's two things I want us to understand here. I already addressed this PI issue. When pregnant cows are infected with a virus, with a BVD virus, there are certain stages of gestation that calf now becomes infected and may actually be born alive and become what we've just talked about, this persistently infected calf. The viremia that they're talking about here, anytime you see the term emia, it means something's in the blood. So when we talk about a term called anemia or anemia, it means we're a little bit short of red blood cells. When we talk about viremia, we're talking about virus in the blood. So what they did, they measured whether PIs were produced out of these pregnant animals, and then they took a number of samples from these pregnant females and measured whether there was actually virus in the blood or not. Virus in the blood tells you that those animals were actually infected and so that the chances of a fetal infection increases quite a bit when you actually have virus in the blood. It doesn't always guarantee it, but it increases the risk to those fetuses that are developing inside that pregnant animal that an infection is going to incur. A couple really important things to look at here. Look at that control group. 10 out of 10 of those pregnant females, these were heifers, were viremic. In other words, they had virus in the blood which tells us that they're infected. And this tells us also that this was really a good test to indicate whether a vaccine was effective or not. There was also 10 PIs produced in that control group. Again, it gives us an idea of the amount of challenge and whether this is a good trial or not. In the killed vaccine group, there was 10 out of 20 of those females that were viremic. In other words, half of them. And that other stuff behind that 10 out of 20 just tells you what type of viruses they found. There were two animals produced that were PIs and two abortions. In the modified live two group, interestingly enough, that had the highest neutralizing antibody titer, there was one out of 20 that were viremic and there were two abortions. In the last modified live group, there were zero out of 20 that were viremic and that one abortion. What I understand from this study is that one abortion, they couldn't figure it, they were never able to determine what that abortion was due to, whether it was due to BVD or not. So, this is one of those studies that gives us this sense or gives us an idea of effectiveness of vaccine. If I didn't vaccinate for BVD in this particular situation, would I be in trouble? Yeah, it would be. If I use a kill, is that better than nothing? Yeah, it is. It absolutely is. But if I really want protection against BVD, I'm probably looking at this type of research, probably going to choose to give the modified live. Okay. To provide the best level of protection. So that, again, this kind of fits that, not necessarily the philosophy part, but the effectiveness part of a vaccine. Okay. There's one other thing I need to mention about this, because this can be so easily overlooked. And I'm convinced that sometimes even myself can become a little bit complacent about this. If somehow we abuse vaccines in terms of handling, if somehow we've maybe haven't checked the refrigerator temperature, or we're using them when it's too warm, or we're leaving some modified lives in direct sunlight, or we're still might be using disinfectants to wash out syringes that we use for modified live vaccines, we may have, instead of dealing with an immunocompetent animal, we have rendered the vaccine ineffective ourselves. So never forget this little detail that is so easily overlooked. Okay. What I want to finish with is just maybe some logic and application behind this whole thing. And this fits with the necessary part, I guess, of the philosophy of vaccination. What's really necessary in many beefers today? And I've listed some things here, some of which may or may not be necessary. From my viewpoint, the first two are necessary. In my mind, remember that the vaccines, it's very difficult to show or return on investment for vaccines. What they are really is crop insurance. Okay. And many guys that are involved in farming understand crop insurance better than I do. But vaccines tend to be the crop insurance for us in the beef business. I am willing to spend a little money to buy crop insurance for IBR and BVD. Those are my top two. Okay. Lepto. I'm still going to put Lepto in most of my cow vaccines because it's really difficult to control Lepto because it can be spread by other animals. Okay. Trick is very specific to certain areas. We can talk about tricking my eyes to the vaccine and I'd probably ask Neil a little bit more about that. And Vibriosis is one of those diseases, infectious diseases that we very rarely see anymore. The question becomes, if we all stop doing it, would it show up again? My answer is probably yes. Okay. So there's a little wobble here for me, but if you had me pick out the two most important, it's those top two. The three most important would be the top three. Okay. So how do we do this? And this goes again back to the best, less and best and better than nothing. So I'm talking about in Heffer's Modified Life Vaccination for IBR, BVD, pre-weening, weaning and pre-breeding. Seems like a lot. Okay. But remember in some cases, Heffer's are carrying some maternal immunity from the mother and maybe some of those doses that were given may not be as effective as they need to be. Lepto pre-breeding following a priming dose is the same with Vibrio. I'll go through these kind of rapidly. I think you guys have these slides. And your veterinary may not agree with me on this and that's certainly okay. I think I've tried to be pretty conservative in what I'm talking about here. Cowherd annual pre-breeding vaccinations with Modified Life, IBR, BVD, and that again inactivated Lepto and Vibrio. The only thing I'm going to mention here is some have adopted vaccination at PregCheck, okay, with Modified Lives. And what I should have done here is follow label recommendations and then had the exclamation point go off the page. Don't do anything other than follow label recommendations here because there is a risk if you don't of actually inducing abortions with those Modified Life IBR vaccines, okay. Many herds have gone to this and they've done so very successfully. But don't go off any label recommendations. Don't even go from one Modified Life to another, okay. And the same holds true if I've been on a kill program to a Modified Life. You have to go, you have to give those cattle and a pre-breeding vaccination with a Modified Life. We can talk about that later if we need to because that can be a little bit confusing, but please follow label recommendations. Herd bowls just kind of treat them like you would the cowherd. We get a little complacent with this, but herd bowls can be a source of some of these pathogens as well. Just finish up with the calves here. And I've tried to be pretty conservative here as well. Many of us vaccinate calves at branding. You know, and years ago, we just used to use 7-way clostridials or even just a 2-way clostridials. Most of us, because of some issues perhaps with some monies, have chosen to go with a Modified Life Respiratory Virus. In some cases, it can be an intranasal or perinatal. Pre-breeding, we come back perhaps with that same Modified Life Respiratory Virus, clostridial again and may or may not use manhimi and hemolytica. And there are some optional ones in here. I've listed histophilus, which used to be called hemophilus. In fact, it's histophilus somni instead of histophilus somnis. And then at weaning, come back again with that Modified Life. And you say, well, that's three Modified Life Respiratories. Yeah, but we're never sure of the percent of animals that have actually responded for various reasons. So it's maybe, I don't believe it's overkill. I believe many of these calves at that age need that type of protection. So it's pretty simple, pretty straightforward. What I've tried to do is think about things that I think are necessary. Think about vaccines that are effective and then apply some logic to this whole arena. Just finished with this summary slide and I'll just make one comment about the picture in the lower right hand corner. The title of what we've talked about today is Vaccination, What the heck am I doing? And I hope this makes a little bit of sense to it. The other thing I'm going to mention about this though is that those of us in the beef industry, I think we know it already. We're enjoying some really good prices for our product that we produce and it's a tremendous product. We also have to remember that we're in competition. We're in competition these days with the crop side of the business. And every acre that can be farmed in grown corn or soybeans and or weed on is going to be grown corn soybeans or wheat. We have to have this idea that we're good stewards but that we're also in a very competitive business, not just with other animal proteins, but with other crops as well. So we have to be as savvy as we can be. We have to be business minded. We have to be willing to adopt technology that we think can keep us in the game. So I hope this discussion was beneficial, Carl. And I'd be happy to take some questions. I probably went a little longer than I should have. Thanks, Carl. Thank you, Jerry. I have a quick question on... I'm a big fan of the intranasal vaccines but if you're giving the three-way intranasal vaccine and a modified live, is that duplicity or is that better than nothing? What's your viewpoint? So I think what you're asking me, Carl, is if I give the intranasal vaccine and then I give a five-way at the same time with some of the same antigens in that vaccine? Yeah, in my mind, it's a great question and I don't have a really good answer for you today. A number of people have done that and have not experienced any safety issues that I'm aware of. It makes me just a little bit goosey, okay? Because what you're actually doing, you're doubling up at least two pathogens at the same time in a dose of vaccine. Is it necessary, okay? I think that's the question to ask yourself. Is this absolutely necessary that I do this? No, I would say it's not. I would say most of the time we're doing this is a matter of convenience rather than whether it's necessary because the one part of that vaccine that's missing in that intranasal is BVD. If I feel strongly that those calves need that BVD, I can provide BVD all by itself. So sometimes it's a matter of convenience based on where we're getting the vaccine because they may not carry that straight BVD vaccine. Or sometimes, I don't know. It doesn't really fit my philosophy as being necessary is what I'm saying, Carl. Now, maybe a little bit twist on that would be can I give that intranasal vaccine and then come back sometime later with a booster dose on some of those antigens in a five-way. Yeah, I can do that. And then they might get the BVD at that time. This can be kind of a, not a complicated issue, but one that takes some explaining. But we actually did a trial at NDSU Streeter Station where we kind of did this. I'm talking about the booster side of it. Where we gave the intranasal of those calves at branding aids and then we came back 90 days later with a pre-weening vaccine and gave the five-way. And at least in terms of one of those antigens that we are interested in, the BRSV fraction, we saw a nice booster effect 90 days later from that first dose that they got at branding. So two different things, maybe, but personally, I would, if I wanted to give the BVD, I would give it individually. Waiting for questions from other locations, I'll ask another one. If you've got a producer that would normally have, they've vaccinated the calves at weaning time, it's January, it's time to booster them because they're not selling the calves until they're backgrounded, until maybe February or March. But the market price for calves are so good right now. The question is, rather than boosting them in February and January, they might just sell them. Where are they better off? To booster the cattle now before they go to market, they let the feedlot do the boosting. Yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of things wrapped up in your question there because we know, if you look at, if you look at these market data, when are the added values recognized for calves going to the marketplace? It's recognized primarily in the fall for calves that are fresh weaned or maybe not weaned. That's where those value-added vaccination programs come in. When we get with those same calves in January and February, they're older, they presumably, I can't remember the first part of your question, those calves are already weaned and been fed for some time. They've been vaccinated once already. Yeah, and they've been fed for some time or not. Yes, a month. They've been weaned. Yes, a month. So once you, if you look at the market data, at least that we have, once you get into that January, February, those calves almost get into a different category. It's not that they're yearlings yet, but they start reaching that yearling category and you don't see those same premiums that you saw earlier in the fall. So in that case, would it pay for him to vaccinate and realize a dollar or two per hundred weight over what he would get ordinarily? I think that's a stretch to be honest with you. I'm just kind of giving you my opinion on this one. Yeah, most of the time when those calves have been weaned at least 45 days, they're relatively bulletproof. And when they're older like that, they're even more bulletproof. Okay. Yeah, another question here. Is there a age requirement for the internasal at birth or three days, five days? We've heard different things. Yeah, that's an interesting question. And this vaccine that you're talking about, I think the one that you're talking about is IBR, PI3 and BRSP. There actually is no age requirement or restriction on that particular vaccine. Some, because of early respiratory issues, have actually chosen to give a vaccine at birth, recognize that in big herds, that's actually quite a bit of work, I mean, to get that accomplished, but some herds are actually doing it. And it's perhaps done more on the dairy side in some of these dairies where they've gone in right when they're born. There is no age restriction to your question. On the internasal, too? On the internasal. I was speaking strictly on the internasal product. Okay. Yup. If I had my choice between doing it right at birth within six hours or three days later, which would you prefer with the internasal? Or do I want to make it easier? Well, I would do it at birth. On a beef operation, I'd do it at birth. I wouldn't catch them anyway, but... Okay, give it two days because they're inside the barn because they wanted to run them to the barn. This relates actually back to the stress issue. When a calf is born, he's got a certain amount of cortisol. We'll just use cortisol as a proxy for stress. There's cortisol in that calf system. And so when he's actually born, the effects of that cortisol are at the actually lowest level, if you will. And for the next week or so, by seven days, he's kind of recovered. So if I just use that parameter in my decision-making model, I'd probably rather give it just right at birth. Okay. Once you start the one, two-day, three-days, that level of stress on his system becomes more profound, and he's actually less able to respond, is what I'm saying. Thank you. In that logic, that's my answer. From a practical standpoint, it wouldn't be, but... We had another question out in the... from another location, and the question... it kind of follows with this right after calving thing is... and maybe Charlie, if he hasn't left, he can answer it too, but how much claustrum is needed in a calf that hasn't had the opportunity to nurse? Say its mother died. How much claustrum should he get, and how late is too late before it's not worth it? Maybe you can summarize it quickly. I know it's a big question. It's actually one of my favorite topics. Have you got a couple hours? Is that a presentation? No, I'll try and answer this. We've got a whole box of cookies here. Let me try and put this in units that are maybe a little easier to understand, because we always think of volume. How much claustrum does it need? Well, within a certain volume of claustrum, in other words, the first milk that a beef cow produces, there's a certain amount of immunity laying in that volume. Okay? Mm-hmm. And it so depends on what the concentration of that immunity is within that certain volume. Do all cows have the same concentration of immunity in that volume? No, they don't. Tremendous variability. And there's tremendous variability depending on how that cow was handled. And then there's tremendous variability in the amount that the calf can absorb depending on how much stress is in the system. Okay? So it's been estimated that a calf needs somewhere between around 200 to 400 grams. So 400 grams would be approaching a pound of immunity, 200 would be about half of that much. Okay? Let's just use those numbers and think about this whole situation. Let's say that I've got a cow that within a leader or within a quart of claustrum has 50 grams of immunity. Okay? Well, if that calf needs 200 grams and everything is absorbed, he'd need what? Four quarts, right? That's kind of the really easy math of this thing. But what happens with those calves is that even though that cow has 50 grams in a quart, the absorption, the efficiency of absorption of that calf is not 100%. In fact, it may only be 35%. Or if you've got a lot of stress, it may be 20% or 10%. So that's why this question is really difficult to answer. Suffice it to say that in most calves, in most cases, a calf needs all it can get. In order to reduce the risk of that calf later in life becoming ill. All right? So, you know, what we sometimes get ourselves into, let's say the mother died and I've got a bag of whatever, you know, of the freeze-dried stuff. Okay? I'm going to mix that stuff up. One thing you've got to mix up the right amount at the right temperature. And in most of those bags of that stuff, you get what you pay for. The higher-priced stuff has approaching 100 grams. You've got to have something that's at least 100 grams. Some of it has even more, up to 125 or more. So if you've got a cow that's died and you have nothing else, don't go in and buy the stuff that's $8 to $10 a bag. Buy the stuff that's $20 a bag. You're at least giving yourself that calf a fighting chance of surviving. And actually I have some confidence in those products because I'm pretty certain they've saved calves' lives. Okay? But it just gives you an idea when I use that 200 and 400 gram thing of the fact that you're still short. Okay? But are they better than nothing? Darn right they are. Are they better than fresh colostrum that you might get from a cow that's in the same herd? Probably not. But they actually can be used as a supplement as well. So I know that's not the exact precise answer you're looking for, but it gives you an idea of trying to get that calf to the level where he needs to be so that he's not at as much risk of getting sick later on. Well now I just have to give you a choice, Jerry. We got a cow that just lost her calf. I mean the calf, excuse me, the cow died. The calf's alive. Do we give them a bag of this artificial colostrum mix of the high dollar 20 stuff right now when the calf is still wet at about 30 minutes of age, or do we wait six hours to milk out a cow because it's going to take me that long to find the cow that's got some colostrum and milk her out and share half and get it into the calf? Which is a better way to go? Yeah, from a very practical pragmatic standpoint you give that calf that high dollar mix is what you do. Right away. Yeah, yep. And then should you follow up another six hours? Sure. Yeah, I really would. This answer is depending on what the situation is. If he's able to get a cow with fresh colostrum, yeah that works too. But yes, in most cases you need to follow up with more because it's usually not enough. I know that's kind of a complicated answer and sometimes it requires a specific case with a very specific management to give you a specific answer. Carl, this is another answer that requires a dipstick answer. Because you can actually stick a dipstick into a calf and measure the amount of immunity he's absorbed. And what this literature kind of tells us that unless that calf is at the full mark, he's at a greater risk of getting sick later on. That's why this is such an important issue. Yep. From the immunological standpoint, not to mention the nutrients needed just to keep the animal alive growing. You have a couple of questions. Good. The first question is concerning the cow herd. If you have a producer who has had, say a closed cow herd for the past 10 years, meaning through the use of AI, we haven't brought any new cattle in, new cows or bulls. Are breeding vaccinations, are they still necessary or are important to give to the cow herd? Remember that you're buying crop insurance. Is there a chance that even, unless you have a cow herd into a barn and have biosecurities coming in and going out, I'm not sure there is such a thing as a closed herd. It really isn't. Now, perhaps some places in the country where we have no animals close by, you could argue that there is. Would I still think in a closed herd situation there is a risk of IBR and BBD? And certainly, lepto, I don't know how you keep transmission of lepto out. So in your specific case, I would still be willing to buy crop insurance. I really would, because I don't know what the downside is because the price of crop insurance for those pathogens is pretty darn cheap. It's probably around $1.50 maybe per cow per year, maybe $2.00, I don't know exactly, but that's pretty cheap crop insurance. Okay, then I've got one more question here. When is the best time to give seven-way shots to calves? Is it at birth or two to three months of age? And does it stress the calf too much to give it at birth or within a few days of birth? This goes back to the first part of that philosophy. Is it necessary? The only way I would say it's necessary to give a calf a vaccine at birth is because I've had a specific issue with a specific pathogen early in that life of that calf that doesn't allow me to come in there later on and vaccinate for that very specific issue. Some guys vaccinate with seven-ways of birth because they have an issue with an organism called clostridium perfringence early in the calf's life. And so sometimes they've adopted that strategy and that makes sense to me because anecdotally and observationally it seems like it's made a difference in some of those herds. On the other hand, if I'm really trying to protect against what we would call black lake diseases that occur most often in pasture situations, I would say, I'm going to wait a little bit later in that calf's life when it's better able to respond to that vaccine. It's not a... that's kind of a general answer to your question, but I'm going to try and time that vaccine to when it's most necessary to give when I can get the greatest protection. If I'm putting a vaccine into a calf at birth and expecting that protection to last me for several months, maybe even as long as six months, I think that's asking too much. Carl, we have one quick question here at LeMore since you seem to have kind of taken up all of our time. No. I want Jerry to answer or make the decisions for you on your own herd there, but no, actually the question we had is like on the modified live. Now, you fill up a syringe. You're doing a number of cows, you know, eight, ten at a time. You lay it down on the back of the tailgate of the pickup or whatever, and it's in the direct sunlight. How long will that virus stay alive in a scenario like that? You know, and Neil may actually have a better answer than I do, but just remember that it's not like it's zapped with a radiation where it kills everything all of a sudden. Okay? You're just slowly... Even if I take virus and mix it up into a vial and have it in a cooler, am I losing live viral particles? Yeah, I am. And we hasten the survival... We hasten the demise of those viral particles when we put it in the sunlight.  And I don't know... Yeah, I think that's right. It's a gradual thing. Yeah. So the answer is don't do that, okay? Mix up what you need for no more than an hour at a time. I know it's kind of... We all get in this situation when we're rolling through the cattle. The guy's bringing the cattle up, seeing you mixing up vaccine. They start grousing at you a little bit. But don't mix up so much just to stay over lunch or stay... You know, just don't do that. And this sunlight issue is a big deal. Have that Styrofoam cooler with holes in the top, so you can stick the syringe in there and protect it from sunlight. It's not that difficult to do. Thanks. One more question? Okay. Once you mix up about a 50-dose vial of modified live, how long should it be until it's used up? And most of the time that works. Most of us would, unless you've got facilities like I showed you at the front there, we should be able to work 50 head in an hour.  If you end up with an hour and a half or two hours and you've kept it cool, it's still going to be okay. But just kind of a rule of thumb, use what you can in an hour. What's stuck inside your shirt pocket, though? It depends on how cold you are. Good point.   What am I trying to say here? Those little bags. Just to keep it at a temperature that's more conducive to that vaccine. When it's warm out, we put cooler packs inside there. It's not difficult, and it's not like if it reaches 50 degrees or 60 degrees inside, all of a sudden everything's dead. That's not the case, but just the idea of controlling temperature to maximize the survivability of those viral particles until you get them into the animal. The same holds true on killed vaccines as well, though. If he's a killed vaccine, is that vaccine still good? Probably not. Because we've kind of broken those antigens up into different pieces. It's a different vaccine going into that animal than if it had not been frozen. So, yeah.


Welcome back to the breakfast on plus TV Africa Our next conversation is moving to the southeast where president Muhammad a Bowery is Expected to visit emo states tomorrow and of course commissioned some projects. He's been welcomed by the state governor But there is a little bit of controversy with the IPO be putting out statements saying that the president is not welcome And of course at the same time declaring once again a sit-at-home order in the southeast or in the most state We're joined this morning by the deputy president of Oh, and as in the world wide team, which is cool. Good morning. Thanks for joining us, sir Good morning. I'm very grateful. I'll thank you. All right. So I'm gonna start with asking For first of all, oh, and as in the world wide is it? It's the same with our nezzan D. Bo it does it represent the voices of the whole of the southeast So is it a totally different body? Organization of our social cultural organization of from D. Bo all over the world Okay, is it normal is normal the president general Is thermal and that's on January 9 2021 Okay, is it is it is this different from on as in D. Bo which is led by John Obie also by chief John Obie also No, he's not the chief Professor I beg your pardon. Yes. Is this is this a different body from it? Okay, all right, so now let's we might come back to this Well, let's now get to your views on the president's visit to emo state and the IPO be Saying that present moment of our is not welcome And there would be another sit at home on Thursday quickly share your thoughts concerning that Allegedly shoot a statement that The present is not welcome to Ebo land the position of our needs is different well said the president Is the president and commander in chief of the federal Republic of Nigeria? Nobody can stop the order the Constitution is the chief executive Achieve secret office of the control So, Mr. Okoku, what does the on is the indigo plan to do beyond issuing a press statement? To make the people of the southeast, you know, actually disregard this sit at home order What you plan to do to ensure that this sit at home order does not take place Are you engaging with the people? What exactly like what actions is on is it taking beyond releasing a press statement? Well, the truth we are there Caution in the past I pop an ESM to be peaceful more violent democratic and accommodating Without some sort of violence in any form and in any way All right, but but you know, I think that the question really is, you know, who really has the ears Of the southeast is it's on as any but worldwide? Is it the Governors of the southeast is it's the on there's any boy headed by professor. Be also, or is it the IPOB? nations in Igbo land under our hands, and there are some organizations who must admit that have told a different path that The ideology the press post the conditions and the ideas are not being pursued by the junctives in the wall Mr. O'Cuckoo in the press statements that you can hear me, Mr. O'Cuckoo Yes, in the press statement that you released you basically went on to say that The president really is an Igbo loving man, you know He's someone who has put Igbo people in his cabinet, but if you know what she says true Why do you think there's such an opposition by I pop to the president's visit? Why are they so against the president's coming to the southeast? Why do we Why do you think the IPOB is against having the president set foot in Igbo state? Why is that you opposing the president coming to you must be yes, please when the IPOB Had said that they are desirous to get an independent state of Biafra. That's what they said at once With a lot of the Igbo's majority of Igbo's don't subscribe to Biafra ideals They don't majority of people's believes that they're Nigerians IPOB is in the minority Igbo land So how can we explain in minority being able to have such control over a whole people in the southeast? Where the issue goes Mondays and then people obey and people who don't get punished their goods get destroyed So how do we explain that and who really holds the power in Igbo state on the southeast? Or you they don't control the body and soul of Igbo land You are aware of that it is the To some extent The the terminate the social media to say that I control there are said many things that did not come to pass In Anambra Three four years ago. They said I'll be the election. I was a lesson. I don't want to double inch I don't want to discuss that my concern is that the president is welcome to Igbo land Yeah, but but this is why we're asking these questions because for Successive Mondays the IPOB has you know declared a seat at home And of course the people in the southeast mostly have respected that seat at home order, you know No, respect is please, please, please Yeah Yes, great You must be careful not to eat for it to be destroyed if you So the issue is that mentally let go that you're going to destroy goods Marcus will not be open not because the people obey you Yeah, but whatever reason it there is for obeying either out of fear or because they believe in the cause of Great Mr. Uncle could the point here is regardless of what the reason is People have continuously stayed indoors on Mondays in the southeast No, I didn't but miss how cool there's a state government in the southeast I get I get your point. I completely get your point with your cuckoo, but I'm saying that there still is The state governments in the southeast that have given We lost miss. I'll cook who there It's unfortunate that our interview had to end that way Because that's exactly why we've brought you up on the show so that you can explain what the situation is in the southeast It's it's a I find that quite, you know absurd that Rather than come out to explain to the people of Nigeria. What exactly is going on in the southeast He chose to end that interview that way Well people of the southeast that's exactly what it is. He's saying the Cititum order is not voluntary He's basically, you know, you heard, you know, his points regarding that But we wish that we can get all the people from the side of the on is indigo to collect things out for us regarding What would happen in Imo State on Thursday and regarding the cracks in the Ones indigo as well as a whole. Yeah, but I think it has been established over time that it's not necessarily voluntary There are people when you've said it over and over that people sit at home Not because they necessarily so really it's not even about the reason it's regardless of they continue to sit Why do we have a police? Why do we have law enforcement agencies? I mean, that's why they exist. They exist to check crime. They exist to checkmate and Disruptions to law and order so when disruptions to law and order come up Then the police should swing into action because that's why you were constituted in the first place Absolutely And remember one of the questions that I asked with your cocoa this morning is who really has the ears of the people of the Southeast because if you say that the IPO be given these orders and people are respecting them out of fear There is a government that should be able to say no, you know We are the government in the south is not the IPO be you've called them a minority which is fair But there is a government that should say we are the government We are the ones who make the laws in the southeast. There should be honest in the boat now He mentioned and then you know, that's one thing I've always known that there are two factions There's the honest indigo that is led by professor Obyoso and then there's also the honest indigo worldwide which he is a deputy president of so there are different bodies That should have the ears of the people of the southeast and be able to give them You know some orders that people should have trust in and these things Over time people have said that these things point out Failure of proper leadership of the southeast either traditional leadership Social-cultural leadership Or government leadership in the southeast and that's the place that these Minority IPO be have taken to be able to tell people to sit at home. So what do you expect? This is why that question is critical If so sexist Mondays have happened and people have actually stayed at home I'd out of fear or because they love the IPO be or because they don't feel like walking on Mondays because they had a stressful Sunday What of the reason is what do you think would happen if the same order comes on Thursday? Who then is the other people of the South is going to listen to is it the same IPO be that you said they fear? Or is it the government who says the president is coming so everybody should come out? See Osara gay, you see what just happened now. Well, we're trying to have a conversation We have no stakes in this matter. We're trying to have a conversation with the Stakeholder the deputy president of the harness in the Indigo and worldwide. Yes, and He didn't have the patience. He says it's not a patient man. He didn't have the patient to have a Balance objective fair conversation with journalists now imagine what the scenario would look like When it comes to speaking with IPOB members because I asked this because we talk about Communication and conversation and dialogue been the answer We just attempted one and it failed. So we hear from people governors in the Southeast We hear from the over instead governor David do her mahi We hear from governor saying or what are you when journalists ask them? What are you doing about the IPOB situation? What he said or what they say is that they are conversing Collaborating working with the IPOB working with on his indigo to communicate and dialogue with the IPOB to make sure That is resolved now if a representative of the on here The on is a indigo worldwide cannot have a simple phone interview with a TV station to clear this so you can then imagine What a disaster communication or conversation or dialogue would be? With the people with the stakeholders that are involved. I really don't see any headway really, you know From such conversations or such gatherings because if it was a physical meeting We can imagine him just walking up and leaving and that really doesn't take us forward.  Okay, but it still doesn't take away You know the details of the actual conversation But it shows the fact that dialogue over this issue would seem like a very tough thing to do obviously and you know It probably is the reason Things have turned out this way because for a long time for years. They have been these agitations They have been these, you know conversations springing up here and there, you know right from my sob to you know Namdee Kano led IPOB to of course the springing up of ESN here and there and to you know What we have today they have there's been enough time from the rough or rough was a decade period, you know Of my sob to where we are today for them to have an actual conversation. Yes You may not be able to get, you know, the restructuring or to get your behalf right immediately but there has been enough time for Conversations and I'm not saying that they haven't tried because I've spent time in the southeast and I know that they've they have tried Government has tried traditional leadership has tried their certain personalities professor Ben I think it's been one way say who's a Constitutional lawyer professor question of constitutional law has been in the forefront of these conversations with the state governments even the morning The very morning that IPOB was prescribed. There was a meeting at the new state government house that Somehow somewhere in the country didn't show up for that meeting, but I was I was aware of these things happening here and there How successful have these conversations been obviously not very very successful How have they been able to establish themselves as one body walking for the same goal? not very successful and and in what ways has the traditional leadership and the The government leadership in the south is been able to establish yourself as the main Voice of the southeast and that includes our nezzan able There's obviously now two factions at is picking the same voice and that's the reason I started the conversation We'd help with asking him to identify or to clarify for us if professor John Obie also and the leadership of the current Mohandes and Igbo worldwide as speaking in the same voice I just begin the same language today believing the same things are they both, you know, do they have the same? Ideas or views concerning IPOB's agitation Do they have the same views concerning present mama Dubuari's and efforts, you know with the southeast these are very very when two different organizations Who claim to want the unity of the southeast? I'm not to be unified within themselves I live it of that. Oh, well, that's it. Well, even in party congresses. There's factions. I just live that happens with politics but anyway The conversation has been on tomorrow's visit of president mama Dubuari to the southeast we must state ways, you know When to commission some projects and of course the state government has put out a message saying he's very very much welcome But the IPOB thinks entirely different and we initially had tried to have conversation with President us present deputy president of our nezzar indigo worldwide to understand what tomorrow might play out like Does you know the points that which are who made in his press release? Do those things really really? Matter with regards the views Consent in the southeast we'll take a short break now and of course we will be back right after yes Look, we're ending the conversation now But what sees indefinitely to this as part of our CSR would be educating you on road signs in Nigeria And so when you drive around the city of Lagos when you drive around the country Do watch out for those road signs and obey them obey traffic rules and save lives Thank you very much for joining us on the breakfast this morning. I am a netta Felix, and I am also gay Oh boy, we show very interesting that Wednesday ahead


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The sharp contrast between modern Europe and age-old Africa becomes most evident perhaps at the Algiers Airport, where the deeming strata liners from France are loaded by air of the stressed in loin clouds and sandals, cut to the same pattern as those once worn in ancient coffee. At the moment, one such plane with its cargo and passengers aboard moves out onto the flight strip and is quickly airborne and bound for Paris. Mile after mile it wings westward over the rich coastal belt climbing steadily. Finally, it turns into a long sweeping bank and heads out over the blue Mediterranean. And suddenly, where the plane was flying, there is nothing. Scattered pieces of blasted wreckage drop from the sky and fall into the sea. The streets of Algiers see the anger and hatred and messages pour out by wire and radio to Paris, London and New York. On a floor of offices high above Manhattan streets, the messages come flooding into the teletype room of the Bureau, where trained specialists take them line by line, decode and analyze them and send them on their way. And eventually, at the end of a long hall on the same floor, the report from Algiers arrives at the office of the Chief.  Well, you've worked closer with him than anyone else. Well, all I know about it is what I got from the newspapers on the way up here, Chief, and that wasn't much. You don't have much more ourselves, Joe. But Sir Hartley Manning was on board that plane. And that's reason enough to drop everything else. You and advisor on North African affairs, the only man who's ever shown a chance of bringing about some permanent agreement between the Arabs and the French. Yeah. He was supposed to give his decision on the Arab farm loan in Paris today. That's why the lids ready to blow off over there. You see, nobody knows for sure what his decision is going to be. And each side's blaming the other for his murder. I suppose there's no doubt that it was murder. No, the plane was literally blown to bits. It couldn't have been an accident. Joe, somebody put a time bomb aboard. Well, one thing, certain Chief, it's got to be solved fast or there's no point in solving it at all. I know LG is pretty well. One spark and start a blaze. There's a plane standing by. It's ready to leave whenever you are. Yes, I'd better start. Oh, Joe, there's one other thing. I don't know exactly how to say it. And I'd rather the Ken Thurston wasn't told just. Joe, I just got the full passenger list a little while ago, the victims of that explosion. And well, oh, what? One of the names was Pagans Elschmidt. Pagans? Yeah, no. I've always been pretty rough on the Elschmidt, but I'm sorry. Pagans. Well, all of us here in the Bureau have been pretty rough on him. You come right down to it underneath it all. Well, the chief, I'll call you from LG. If you would be so kind as to sign the register here, Monsieur Kendall, thanks. I do hope that you will find our services adequate. We are somewhat disorganized, you understand, because of the tragedy. You mean so hardly manning that? Oui, Monsieur. Oui. He was staying here in the hotel. I watched him walk out through his very lobby on his way to the airfield. Too bad. Only Abben Ahmed was with him and a boy who was carrying the large box which Monsieur Manning was taking with him on the plane. Lides box? Oui, Monsieur. I am told to contain wine from the Arab vineyards. I don't know why I give from Abben Ahmed. I see. Tell me, who is this Abben Ahmed? I believe he is a leader of the Arab Union. He maintains an office somewhere in the Casbah. Casbah, huh? I beg your pardon. Are there any messages for me? Monsieur? No, Monsieur, there is nothing. Thank you. Monsieur Garmatzia was the only lucky passenger on that plane. Lucky. Yes, I was already aboard when a business call over the loudspeakers calls me to leave the plane less than five minutes before take off. You were lucky. Very much so. I don't believe I've had the pleasure. Oh, Joe Kendall, I'm a new arrival, Mr. Garmatz. Well, in that case, welcome to our guest, Mr. Kendall. Now, if you will excuse me, thank you very wealthy man, Monsieur Garmatz, most influential. Well, now, if you'll excuse me, uh, well, hey, just a moment there. What do you mean, Justin? Oh, hello, Mr. Kendall. Hey, Garn, I thought you were dead. Me? I never felt better in my life. Your name was on the passenger list of that plane that exploded.  Anybody that says I'm dead is nuts. Crazy, even. Well, thank you. I was supposed to be on the plane, you understand? Only, only I run into an old friend of mine at the airport, and he tipped me off. What do you mean tipped you off? Well, he said he had a hunch. I, I hadn't ought to take that plane, so I did it. Yes, he was psychic. Yeah, that's one explanation. Do you know where he is now? Not exactly. I know a couple of joints he hangs out in, though. Find him, Pagon, and try to find out why he had that hunch. But I haven't got time. I'm working. Working. It'd be easier to believe you were dead. But I am, I mean, working. I'm here buying Persian drugs for my Uncle Ahmed. In Algiers? All right, they're Algierians, so we get them cheaper. Who knows the difference? It's too bad you're tied up, Pagon. I figured it might be worth, I'll say, around a hundred bucks to find out. I'll have the dob in an hour. Where are you going to be? Back here probably right now. I'm going up to the Caspar. Ah, going to see the dancing girls, eh? No. I'm going to look for a killer. Huh? More tea, Mr. Kindle. No, thanks, Adam, have a good one. Mr. Kindle, this exchange of pleasantries has been most agreeable. But this old one has the feeling that you'll come to Abanameed with more in mind than a mere social visit. And this old one has probably guessed what I have in mind. One assumes that a man from the bureau would be investigating the tragedy of Sir Hartley Manning's death. And if I were, would you know anything about it? Only that his death was also tragedy for my people. It is possible that the loan to the farmers may not be granted now. Well, according to the rumors around the city, Manning had decided not to recommend the loan. The rumors are false. Oh. Yes. Sir Hartley stated on the way to the airport that he had decided to urge granting of the loan with all the influence at his command. I see. Aban, I'm told that you gave Manning an unusually heavy case of wine to take with him on the plane. That is true, but I have no idea how the explosive was put aboard the plane, Mr. Kindle. But I assure you that the case of wine contained only wine. There would be no reason. I'm sorry, I thought you were alone. It is well, Mary. This is Mr. Kindle, my daughter, Mary. Mr. Kindle is investigating Sir Hartley's death. You mean his assassination? I hope you find a murderer, Mr. Kindle. And I hope that when you do, the crowd in the streets cares him to pieces. You must forgive her violence. Mary is a modern young woman in most ways, but her blood still remembers the glint of knives in the moonlight. Yes. And I know where I would like to bury that knife. Mary, stop it. I'm sorry, Father. Mr. Kindle. I understand. But you see, hundreds of farms will go into bankruptcy and then revolt, perhaps, and military rule, perhaps. The grim picture, all right. Mass bankruptcy alone is bad enough, except for the person who profits by it. Gromit. Gromit. He holds nearly all the mortgages on our plans, Mr. Kindle. See. Oh, I will get it. Yes. Oh, just a moment. It is for you, Mr. Kindle. No, thanks, sir. Let me have it. Yes. Hello? I've been hunting all over for you, Mr. Kindle. The hotel manager finally said to try this number. Are you at the hotel now, Pagan? No. I'm down at the harbor. But I'm going there. What are you doing so long out there in Kazba? Drinking tea. Tea? Did you locate your friend? Oh, sure. He says he's got the tip about that plane from his boss. His boss? Uh-huh. What has he worked for? Oh, some Arab character by the name of Abin Hamid. Good evening, Mr. Kindle. Oh, hello, Mr. Gollitz. I phoned your room a while ago, but you weren't in. I was wondering if you would care to have dinner with me. Well, thanks, sir. Glad to have you. You'd see in about half an hour, Mr. Kindle. Fine. I'll meet you in the lobby. Three things.  Right. I have just taken a friend of yours up, Mr. Kindle. Oh? I think he's very sick or something. Something is bad wrong. We can floor three. Thanks. Devil could... What? Oh, Pagan. Pagan, what's wrong? Here. Have a look. Forgive me, Mr. Kindle, for getting blood all over your floor. Easy, easy now. I've got a doctor up here right away. Just lie back there. Pagan. Pagan. We will continue with the man called X in just a moment. Here's a word from RCA Victor. The RCA Victor Factory Service Contract is practical and reliable, as the owner of an RCA Victor television set, you can enjoy the protection of an RCA Victor Factory Service Contract. You can depend on it to keep your RCA Victor Television Receiver in perfect condition at all times in all ways. And you always are sure to receive prompt courteous and expert service by RCA's own factory train technicians. Think of it, hours and hours of uninterrupted pleasure, no unnecessary expense for repairs or parts. And service is available with or without a contract, only to RCA Victor Television owners. So make yours an RCA Victor Television Set. And if you're planning on buying a new one, be sure to hear and see the incomparable Regency, a magnificent television console. It's America's favorite television, featuring a big 17-inch screen in a matchless setting. And inquire about RCA Victor's factory service contract when you buy the Regency. And now to continue with the man called X, tonight starring Joseph Cotton with Leon Balasco as Pagan Zelschmidt. A plane explodes in mid-air over the Mediterranean and Sir Hartley Manning, whose decision would have determined the fate of the Arab farm loan for North Africa, dies in the explosion, leaving his decision unknown. Algiers is seething with growing tension and the threat of violence. And now Joe Kendall returns to his hotel room to find Pagan, knifed in the back and lying in a pool of blood. Now let me clip the ends of this bandage. There. I guess that's about the best I can do, Mr. Kendall. Still unconscious, Doctor? Well, he seems to be stirring a pit now. Wouldn't it be a good idea to move him to a hospital? No, there's really no point in it. I'll be in room 110 if you need me, Mr. Kendall. Thank you, Doctor. It's killing me. How ya, Pagan? I don't really mind dying. You understand, but I want you to know that I'm sorry for all the bad things I've done. What things? Oh, I want you to forgive me. Ask Mr. Thurston to forgive me, too. You can even forget that $100 you owe. Now that is repented. When you come right down to it, underneath it all, I'm your friend. Yeah, I know that. Who was it, Pagan? Who stabbed you? I don't know. It was dark. I know one thing, though. It was a girl. A girl? The perfume she was wearing. It was subtle, but exciting, like voodoo, or saboon, or... A connoisseur to the last, huh? Please. Your dear old friend is dying. Oh, snap out of it, Pagan. You're all right. Don't lie to me. I can take it. That doctor said there wasn't even any point in taking me to the hospital. Because there's no need to. That knife glanced along one of your ribs. You've got a bad surface cut. That's all. You're not going to die? I'm not. No. Well, in that case, where's my hundred bucks? Arabs have always been their own worst enemies, Mr. Kendall, and this manning affair has proved to be not acceptable. How do you mean, Mr. Grommet? Well, I mean they antagonized manning in every way possible, in spite of the efforts of some of us to get a favorable decision for the loan. And then when it became known that manning would oppose the loan, they killed him. Do you think, then, that the Arabs were responsible for the plane explosion? I believe it is the only explanation that fits the fact. Provided, of course, that the main fact you're referring to is correct, that manning had decided to refuse the loan. As far as I know, that's only a rumor. I can confirm it, Mr. Kendall. Yes. I talked with manning here at the hotel only two hours before he went to the airfield. He told me he was turning down the loan. I tried to reason with him, but it was no use. Mr. Grommet, it would seem to me that your own interests might be better advanced if the loan were refused. Because of mass bankrupts, you mean? On the contrary, I have lost money on every foreclosure I have been forced to make. And you claim to be as disappointed as the Arabs over manning's decision? Yes, but not disappointed enough to murder. Oh, I'm glad you're that.  The airline officials tell me that you had nearly 200 pounds of baggage on the plane that blew up. Why, yes, I had to leave the plane so early that there was no time to remove it. They also tell me you've made no claim for reimbursement. Well, I've been so shaken by the narrow escape that I can't deny completely forgot about it. A little shack right ahead, Mr. Kendall, on this side of the fishing wall. And next to the cannery, big guy and your friend seems to go in for atmosphere. Oh, Billy is not particular. Billy? Yeah, that's his name. Why? Because it's also the name of a man, Abin Hamid's daughter mentioned. She was going to see him and give him some money. Oh, that figures. Billy said he worked for Abin Hamid. I know. Come on, let's go. The part I don't get, Mr. Kendall, is how come some character wants to kill me? I didn't do that. No, but you could do something. Why? You could testify that you were warned ahead of time that the plane was in danger. Yeah, but, huh? And the man who warned you probably knows who caused the explosion. Oh, maybe Billy just had a hunch. Maybe, maybe. I suppose we asked him. We can go right in. Billy never likes his dog. See? Well, you ought to know he's your friend. That's funny. Must have gone off somewhere and left all the lights burnt. Hey, look. I guess we're a little late. Somebody stuck a knife in Billy, too. And they did a better job this time. He's dead. But, but why did they kill him? Why not? He served his purpose and there was no use taking a chance on it. Huh? What did you find? A couple of bank drafts in his coat pocket. Signed by Abin Hamid. Well. But, but who's behind all this stuff? Blowing up airplanes, killing people. We've got two good possibilities on all sides of the fence. This business of the Arab farm loan. Abin Hamid. The man named Gromis. They both claim to know Manning's decision and their claims disagree. I got it. What of them is lying? Question is which one. What was Manning's decision? Well, I, I guess that's, that's something we'll never know. Maybe not, Pagan. But we can pretend to know. Oh, oh. Come in, Pagan. Boy, for a lousy hundred bucks, I sure had to do a lot of running around. And me, sick men besides. Did you get that rumor started? Oh, sure. I'm an old hand at that racket. I planted it with the bellhop, taxi drivers, Arab guys. You know, the usual grapes one. Exactly. What did you plan? Oh, I just, what you told me too, that before he went to the airport, this Manning guy had mailed a report with his decision about that Arab loan thing. And that the post office turned it over to you. And you're holding it unopened here in your room. Hey, are you? Of course not. I didn't think so, no, I didn't. Well, what do we do now? Nothing. We wait. You mean to see which one of those two guys tries to, hey, hey, there's a third one. You forgot about that daughter of Abin Hammett's. Oh, no, I didn't. It's after midnight. I don't think anybody is going to come here at all. Well, it could be right. Why I'm always getting myself mixed up with this messess anyhow. Hey, Gunn, I often wonder. Here I am peacefully buying Persian rugs and algeas, strictly legitimate. And what happens? You nearly got blown up in an airplane. Oh, that was an accident. What I mean is I run into you and three hours later I get knifed in the bag. That's friendship for you. Friend wouldn't make a wounded man sit up all night. You don't have to. Go on down to your room. You get stabbed again? That's the kind of dilemma I always get myself into when the smell is here somewhere. Hey, Gunn, you may... Oh, gentlemen, don't move. Put up your hands, please.  I was afraid you might be expecting someone by way of the door, Mr. Kendall. Hey, it's the Gromitz guy. That's right. Who did you expect? But that perfume, I thought... He wears it when he's here. I know. I noticed it at dinner.  Certainly. After I had him tell your friend he worked for Abin Hammett, I wanted to make sure he wouldn't change the story. And I imagine the explosives were planted in the luggage you left aboard the plane. Of course. When Manning told me he was going to recommend the loan, I decided to eliminate him. It was really too easy. But Mr. Kendall, what about those bank grafts and billies from Abin Hammett? Interest payments on mortgages, I suppose, right, Gromitz? I really did not come here for a question-and-answer session, Mr. Kendall. I would like to have that report of Manning's. Oh.  Because I wanted him to admit a few things in front of witnesses. Witnesses? That's right. Come on in, Abin Hammett. You will drop that gun, Mr. Gromitz. I will drop nothing. Watch him! He's going out the window! Gromitz! Stop! Don't try to stop me or I will...  He fell clear to the pavement. Yeah. But at least there'll be enough evidence to ensure a passage of the Arab loan. May Allah be thanked. My people have a saying, Mr. Kendall, that he who steals the water from his neighbor's well will fall someday from a high place. Never have I seen the same more amazingly fulfilled. It's a true saying. He who steals the water from his neighbor's well. That's exactly what's going on today all over the world, stealing water from a neighbor's well, trying to win at somebody else's expense. And the water's always lost, nobody gains. Why don't they dig their own wells? Our star for tonight, Mr. Joseph Cotton, will return in just a moment. And now here's Ben Crosby with the word about vacations. Oh, Ken, when you mention vacations, it brings a tear to my eye and a lump in my throat. Poor Uncle Herbert. Well, what happened to your Uncle Herbert? Uncle Herbert loves to fish. So on his vacation, he hide himself off all alone to a secluded spot way back in the woods. Poor Uncle Herbert. He forgot his fishing pole? He forgot his Chesterfield. So friends, take a tip from me, whether you're packing to take off for the weekend or for that long anticipated vacation. Pack a couple of cartons of those milder Chesterfield. When you take off on a trip like that, you like to go where you want and do what you want. So tick along the cigarette that gives you what you want. Chesterfield. Chesterfield gives you its famous ABCs, always milder, better tasting, cooler smoking, plus no unpleasant aftertaste. Yep, the country's first and only cigarette taste panel reported of all brands tested. Only Chesterfield leaves no unpleasant aftertaste. Vacation time, anytime. Take Chesterfields with you. Now, here again is our star for tonight, Mr. Joseph Cotton. As Herbert Marshall would say, thanks for being with us. My thanks to Lucille Meredith, Will Wright, Stan Waxman, Polly Bear, and Harry Bartel. Next week, a flying trip to Indonesia. And of course, Leon Velasco will be along as Pagan. So listen, won't you, when Herbert Marshall returns as the man called X. Good night. Joseph Cotton may currently be seen in the Hal Wallace production, Peaky and Express. The Man Called X is the Friday Night feature on NBC's five-show festival of comedy, music, mystery, and drama. Brought to you by the makers of Anderson for fast relief from the pain of headache, new writers, new Roger. By RCA Victor, world leader in radio first in recorded music first in television. And by Chesterfield, always milder, better tasting, cooler smoking, plus no unpleasant aftertaste. The Man Called X is a J. Richard Kennedy production with music by Milton Charles. The night story was written by Les Crutchfield. All characters and incidents on this program are fictitious, and any resemblance to actual characters or incidents is purely coincidental. Be sure to hear the magnificent Montague with Monty Woolley, formerly heard on Friday, now brought to you as a Saturday Night feature of NBC's All Star Festival. And until next week, same time and station, this is Jack Latham saying good night for The Man Called X. Next, join Roy Shield on NBC.


I remember seeing Batman Forever in theaters when I was a kid, and it was a good time. The Batman movies back then had kind of a sillier vibe to them back when Joel Schumacher was the director, and they were much different than the Christopher Nolan Batman films that came later. They weren't as ridiculous as, say, the 1960s Batman TV show, but they were decidedly, eh, I'll say less serious than what we're used to now. Sadly, Batman Forever's accompanying video games for Super Nintendo and Sega Genesis did not match the vibe of the movie at all. Instead, they were a dark, dreary, unintuitive mess of a game that's easily one of the ten worst games on the Super Nintendo in particular. What I did not know until recently is that there was a completely different Batman Forever game simply titled Batman Forever the Arcade Game made by Probe Entertainment and Iguana Entertainment, the latter being best known for the mega popular NBA Jam series. It's yet another arcade game I had never seen before, and yeah, as you can clearly see, this game is what the Super Nintendo and Sega Genesis games should have been from the get-go, just a simple beat-em-up, kinda like what Batman Returns was, just set in the Batman Forever universe, so to speak. You can play as Batman or as Robin, and you walk to the right and smash bad guys on a playthrough that lasts eight levels, and of course, this being an arcade beat-em-up, this game is two-player co-off, and you can both play as either Batman or Robin at the same time, which is kinda cool. This game features typical beat-em-up controls, punch, kick, jump, land consecutive hits to do a combo, and yeah, I get it, some folks may think that's a bit boring, but Batman Returns Arcade does put its own unique spin on things. I like the interactive backgrounds, like being able to smash enemies into windows, or having wrecking balls drop down from nowhere to smash you or an enemy, then that same wrecking ball can also smash stuff in the background that falls on you. There's also hilariously goofy power-ups here, the same you'd find in most other beat-em-ups at the time, but I guess it's just kinda funny to be seeing them used on photodigitized characters like this. Hey, what the heck happened, I shrunk? What, did somebody use the lightning bolt from Mario Kart or something? I love that he's tiny and can still unleash tons of damage. It's like watching Frank Reynolds in a Batman costume go to town on some goons. And it's not just you that shrinks, you can also shrink enemies if you find a certain power-up. Now, that's funny.  I mean, it's fine if a game wants to be this fast and this crazy, but what makes it kind of a bummer for me is the constant camera shaking. It makes me feel like my eyeballs are gonna come loose from my skull and just fall out. It just really gets old. Still, I do appreciate the ridiculousness this game brings to the table, like throwing this guy into the background and, uh, did he just explode?  In the fourth level, you can send dudes flying out the window, wee! I also love how some of the enemies talk. I can't speak to how closely this game follows Batman lore, occasionally you do hear what sounds like Tommy Lee Jones as Two-Face. I know a little bit about Batman, but not that much, and when I got to the third level boss here named Tassel, I googled Batman Tassel to see if this was someone from the comics or the movies, and all I could find were actual Batman Tassels. Oh well. What's interesting here is that for each token, you get not one life, but three lives, and that's because this game is absolutely positively brutally difficult. Classic arcade cheesing for quarters.  If you're gonna play this one, you're gonna have a way better time with the second player, just because you have a much better chance of seeing more of the game that way. Plus, with two players, you can do some pretty cool combo attacks that are a lot of fun. Batman Forever Arcade was developed on Sega's Titan technology, which was essentially the basis of the hardware for the Sega Saturn, so naturally this game did receive a Saturn port, as well as ports to PlayStation and DOS, but as usual, the best way to play this one is gonna be the original arcade version. So yeah, ultimately, Batman Forever Arcade is pretty good, but not nearly as good as some of the other arcade beat-em-ups I've touched on over the past few months. To put it simply, this one's just not as fun. It definitely has fun moments, but this game's difficulty is absurd.  Still, this can be a pretty fun one with the second player, and yeah, I would recommend other games ahead of this one, but if you played all those games to death and you're really into arcade beat-em-ups, then this one is still worth checking out any way you can. Alright, I want to thank you for watching, and I hope you have a great rest of your day.