Call the meeting to order. This is the 21st Regular meeting of the 2009 2010 Common Council and as is customary our city clerk Sue Richards will read the quote of the evening Thank You mayor. You see it's never the environment It's never the events of our lives But the meaning we attach to the events how we interpret them that shapes who we are today and who will become tomorrow Thank You sue roll call, please Born here bauke Bowers Decker Gisha Hanna hide him here Okay, I don't mean Kittleson Clowness Montemay or Rinflaish Suric Vanderweal excused and Wongamon 15 present we have a quorum if Alderman Gisha can please lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance. I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands One nation under God Indivisible with liberty and justice for all Thank You Jim We're looking for approval of the minutes of the prior council meeting Motion in a second to approve the minutes under discussion There's no discussion all in favor say aye Opposed motion carries resignations attorney McLean Thank You, Mary Ann have a letter to the mayor dated today From William Nyhouse advising that he's resigning from the senior activity Center Commission as he's been unable to attend the meetings We have a motion to accept and file in a second under discussion There's no discussion all in favor say aye opposed Motion carries Public form sue All right this evening. We have three people first on the list would be Richard Susha If you could please come up to the mic Richard, can I have your home address, please? 15 North Point Drive Sheboygan And you will have five minutes or thank you I'm here on behalf of the Sheboygan County Taxpayers Alliance this evening But they had asked me to make an announcement first that before the primary election SCTA will be sponsoring a meet the candidates night February 9th, that's next Tuesday at 6 o'clock at the Meade library in the Rooker room So all the candidates have been invited Please come and then meet your candidates I was in attendance at the recent committee of the whole meeting where the fire department paramedic ambulance was discussed with figures thrown around Marginal cost basis was touted and MBAs were bragged about and At the end of the evening most all of them still had that glazed look in their eyes They remember one figure $400,000 profit That figure is still debatable But what is not debatable is a terrible collection percentage I'm very happy to see the council going out on bids for a new firm that will not only be a billing agency But hopefully also a collection agency The public takeover of the ambulance service was a mistake and remains a mistake This issue is not going away You can have all the audits you want and you can have all those figures say what you want them to Now you want more firemen paramedics You want to unfreeze the hiring freeze? You threaten to close the station or two With the union head pushing for closure of the downtown station, which would be foolhardy All this rhetoric is tied in with the ambulance issue One of the previous chiefs stated if this doesn't make money you can take the money out of the fire budget and The council and mayor fell for that line Very few knew what a marginal cost basis was Now the new chief wants to expand transports because it is a moneymaker. That's true But he doesn't feel they should expand service beyond our city limits He says that now The system we have Where new chiefs stay for about three years to boost their retirement fund Makes it very difficult to have any continuity of ideas or management. I Know this is a state issue But our past police chiefs have had more longevity and that is good While a response time is good So is orange crosses While there is professionalism So is their professionalism with orange cross Privatization did and would better serve our citizens. It's not too late to unload this Albatross. Thank you you do Thank you Mayor Susha. Yes. I said, thank you, sir Next on the list would be Ed Wachowski 2632 North A Street 2632 North 8 and you will have five minutes sir I will be very brief and I won't need five minutes tonight. Okay. First of all, I'd like to thank Alderman Hannah for accepting my letter and referring it to common counsel and having it put on the committee of the whole Meeting for discussion. I am also requesting this evening That item number 21 dash 50 21 dash 50 is an ordinance change being requested by the transit commission Also be referred to the committee the whole for discussion enlightenment and Information that you will receive Before you vote on the issue to change the ordinance to take time and discuss it this evening Would be inappropriate in my opinion for two reasons First of all, I don't think Valuable time from the common council meeting should be devoted to this type of discussion and more time can be devoted to Discussion at the committee of a whole also it will give the transit commission chairman vice chairman and Transit director an opportunity to address the issues of why they want this to be done both both issues 2150 and 2122 are related and I want to thank you in advance for Moving or referring 2150 to the committee the whole for discussion and I made under five minutes. Did I not show? Yes, you did. Thank you. Thank you Thank you, red And last on our list would be Delcey Johnson Delcey, can I have your home address, please 1306 North 3rd Street, Sheboygan and You will have five minutes. Mayor Ryan Alderman and citizens I attended the salaries and grievances committee meeting last Monday night Chief Herman was present to discuss his request for promotions and pay increases for the positions of six fire department retirees and To ask that the council lift the hiring freeze to hire three more firefighter paramedics Chief Herman wants to expand the ambulance service and provide Transports to Milwaukee Fond du Lac in Green Bay, and he stated that he cannot do transports without the three new hires Alderman Heidemann Kittles and Balkan geisha voted to lift the hiring freeze Alderman Kath voted against it Pertonites council agenda the issue is being referred to the finance committee to find funds for these potential new hires Because they are not funded in the 2010 budget The mayor and council accomplished a zero percent tax increase by eliminating 21 public works positions as well as personnel from other Departments, and there are four unfilled positions in the police department Should the fire department be exempt from making sacrifices, too Where will the money come from to amend the 2010 budget and add three new firefighter paramedics? I thought the council had passed a bare bones budget and Monday night's meeting Alderman geisha asked chief Herman if he would be making the same request if the department was not doing ambulance services Chief Herman answered yes, you will remember that the city hired four fire pedder firefighter paramedics specifically So the department could provide ambulance service So I was struggling to understand why the four would be needed if the city was not in the ambulance service business I emailed Alderman geisha hoping he could explain this for me. He responded by saying good question I believe I understand the answer to this However, I feel it only correct and proper procedure that chief Herman answered this for you in greater detail than I could So I emailed chief Herman who responded that if the city was not providing the ambulance service We would only need to hire two because the department was down six Due to retirements, and if you take away the four we hired and when we started up the service We still need two to get back to where we are Also at Monday night's meeting truth chief Herman said that the department had received an inquiry from a person at Rocky Noel Who would like the department to transport them to Milwaukee wait while they receive care and then return them to Rocky Noel? Chief Herman said this could take six hours and depending on other demands for ambulance service might necessitate bringing in on-call persons at overtime wages Do the citizens of Shiboygan want their fireman paramedics spending six or more hours out of this city? Transporting people to Milwaukee and paying overtime wages for on-call personnel when orange cross is very capable of providing this service The fire union already feels that they do not have a man enough men to safely respond to fires and Sunday mornings fire on 8th Street is a good example of why we should not be sending firefighters out of the city doing Transports there is no need for the city to do transports government should not be doing what the private sector can do Chief Herman also said that the city is considering expanding service into the town of Wilson When asked how the answer was and I do not know who responded, but the answer was annexation. I Would of course support annexation, but would strongly oppose extending any service without annexation Chief Herman is also requesting a new pumper truck to replace two vehicles housed at the downtown station In his email to me this morning chief Herman said that if we bought the rescue pumper and did not provide ambulance service We would not have to hire any more people, but the city would be short six firefighters and fire protection would be impacted the cost of this truck is estimated to be $475,000 and although there has not been a single document introduced in any committee or to the council at Monday nights meeting Chief Herman said that another fire department has already offered $70,000 for one of the existing vehicles Evidently word travels fast between fire departments and it sounds like a phase a complete as was the case with another issue involving the fire department and Yes, I am referring to the way the ambulance deal came down in 2007 when the votes were already cast before the public had any knowledge of what was being discussed behind closed doors and Before the council before the issue reached the council agenda Finally, I would like to share with you information from the fire department ambulance service Financial and activity report for the first six months of 2009 which I received on January 19th in response to a freedom of information Act request Page 5 of this report states By allocating the cost of Sheboygan fire department personnel by the number of calls it responds to the ambulance fund has Significantly more costs the report shows a marginal cost analysis profit of $17,805 for the first six months of 2009. Excuse me. Dulcy. Would you like an extra minute, please? Thank you The report shows a marginal cost analysis profit of $17,805 for the first six months of 2009 and a deficit of two million two hundred and seventy seven thousand one hundred and seventy dollars When pro rated with the Sheboygan fire department, which includes sixty eight percent of the Sheboygan fire department general fund personnel costs This is not my arithmetic, but it's taken directly from the report for the first six months of 2009 which I have right here Candidates seeking election in April have discovered that the ambulance issue is the issue most often raised by Sheboygan citizens I urge citizens to speak at the public forum and Call or write the mayor and your alderman get involved. Thank you. Thank you Thank you, Dulcy It is all for public forum Moving on to my favorite part of the evening the mayor's announcements. I know it is Thank you On behalf of Alderperson Clioness the committee of the whole meeting scheduled for this Wednesday February 3rd will not be held in the council chambers. It will be held at the North 25th Street fire station at 515 by the reason for this is it's a regarding Firefighting demonstration, which is a heck of a lot easier to do in a fire department than it is here in the council chambers So that is that it's an announcement. So 515 it is open to the public at the North 25th Street firehouse Also all of the alderman you have on your desk and I've announced this before we still have our sister city Estling and tour coming up May 17th Through the 29th. We do still have a few spots available. This is open to the general public. I know I'm going Alderperson kiddison is going. I don't know if anybody else from the council is going yet I believe we still have about a half a dozen spots open for this trip And if you can bring an extra 30 people we can get another bus. We'll have 36 open so No, it'll be it'll be a good time. I get to lead it up even though don't worry I'm not actually organizing it. So it'll it'll come off without a hitch One thing I would like to talk about this evening regardless of how you feel About the ambulance service and adding or or Eliminating staff. I'd like to commend the fire department on the job. They did this weekend In the early morning hours of our late late night Saturday early morning hours of Sunday the downtown fire We had just a block away from here at the Slice Midtown Saloon building Regardless of how you feel about the staffing of the fire department. I want to commend the our firefighters for the fine job They did this building is very similar in structure in the layout to what the pizza man building was in Milwaukee That building was a total loss. This was limited to the one structure. I understand that it was a very dangerous fire to fight We had a couple of firefighters that were in a precarious situation Luckily everything came out Everybody came out unharmed and the adjoining structures were saved That's why we that's why we have a fire department and that's why we we pay taxes to support our fire department So regardless of which side you are on on the ambulance issue I think everybody should be grateful that we do have a professional fire department That they could have built burnt down half a city block and and they did their job I'd also like to thank some of the People who helped out we had the town of Sheboygan came in with their with their ladder And assisted we'd like to thank them also. I'd like to thank out some of the Establishments that were open at that hour of a of a Saturday night, namely being the Penn Avenue Pub legend Larry's and GM's who I guess helped firefighters out by providing hot chocolate and coffee and Some food and everything else and it's good to see that our our local establishments helped out in the effort So if you happen to see a firefighter, thank them for the job. They do That's all I have Thank you, everybody The Consent Agenda President Kisha Thank you, your honor. I moved to accept and file all reports of officers accept and adopt all reports of committees and pass all resolutions and ordinances We have a motion and a second under discussion. We have Alderman boring Thank You Mayor Ryan. I've got some questions on three different documents. I'll take number 2110 first and the question I have on 2110 that these are these are Documents that came to public works that the committee moved to file and I have a question on number one and for the people watching that was a Communication from Stevie B's landscaping LLC regarding his offer of the free tree removal tree removal program in exchange that he received all wood Associated with the removal. I understand from talking to the chairperson of the committee all our men all our person Kittleson that this is now going this is now going out for RFP. I'm wondering if Besides tree removal whether the RFPs are going to include stump removal so that this Operation could all be done in one day. The tree comes down the stump comes out. Is that under consideration? On the person Kittleson. Thank You Mayor We can certainly put it under consideration. I think Director Bittner I don't know if you see her this evening, but I do believe you'll be working on on on something and and we'll keep this all in mind as we put a Proposal together to send that out bill if you'd like to Thank you Thank you all the person Kittleson. We have a Director of Public Works bill Bittner Coming to the front It's a pretty straightforward We like to get most of the trees taken down during the winter months Stump removal is really a yard finishing seating black dirt thing so it needs to be done after the the spring thaw so The normal process is try to get as many trees as you can during the winter months If we don't have bad snow and then do all the yard replacements right away in the spring Thank You bill Alderman born Thank You again, Mayor Ran, and then the second the second one And on this one twenty one nineteen. I would like a separate vote on this one and this one has to do with the Proposed ordinance on the smoke detectors. I've got a couple questions for Alderman Hanna and then possibly Chief Herman All of them Alderman Hanna did your committee consider how this ordinance is going to increase compliance of people that have smoke alarms To me this is just another intrusion on you know trying to order the public what to do And I've had several phone calls on it, and I'm wondering if if the approach of Educating the public on possibly this type of a smoke detector might be Advantages over some battery operated ones Could you just tell me how the discussion went and committee please Alderman Hanna? I Couldn't agree with you more all been born, and I am recommending That's get referred back to public protection and safety. I think it needs more public input I spent about eight hours this weekend Walking in my district talking to people that are in full compliance with our court ordinance I feel that this ordinance is really directed at a relatively small percentage of folks That are historically out of compliance, and so my recommendation is for it to go back to public protection and safety I think we need public input and education I sent a note today to chief Herman that I believe this is a matter of educating people that These are state-of-the-art Smoke detectors. I know my family's gonna make the choice to use them. I think they're a wonderful device But I also think these oversteps are bounds So I agree with you completely Would you'd like to motion make a motion to that I'd like to make a motion to refer 21 19 Back to public protection safety for further discussion and to allow for public input Okay, we have a motion and a second under discussion on referring back Would anybody like to discuss referring this back? Alderman Bowers Discussion on referring it back to committee I'm on that committee, and I was definitely in favor of the the new ordinance What we have here is people that have fire alarms, but they're removing batteries But this new ordinance the batteries cannot be removed And I received the phone calls to not a lot, but I've received and they're all against it and the reason for being is cost What is the cost of a human life? Now if people are taking batteries out and not replacing them or leaving them in over the period That's defeating the purpose Sooner or later. We have to have this ordinance and they have five years to implement it So I definitely in favor of what we passed in the committee Thank you all the more Bowers Any other discussion on referring it back? Okay, just on the motion to refer this back to committee all in favor say aye opposed We have alderman bowers opposed yep Motion carries it will be referred back to committee in 21 19 Back to public protection and safety Alderman longerman. Thank you. I was going to ask the same thing alderman Hannah beat me to it. Okay very good Alderman boy Thank you again, Mary Ann and then the final one that was on the consent agenda was document number 21 20 and For the people watching that has to do with reducing the number of required fire quote inspections to one per calendar year So long as the interval between those inspections does not exceed 15 months Recommends that the ordinance be passed again Alderman Hannah was wondering if you could enlighten the council and the citizens the for the rationale behind this and also, I may be wrong, but I thought that the that the Doing fire inspections is a is a revenue source for the city. I might be wrong on that Alderman Hannah, please enlighten us Thank you my understanding Alderman born and council members Is that this will allow the fire inspector to spend more time on those areas that have been identified as problem areas? They go to the same buildings again and again They pass with flying colors So this just allows him to focus more on those buildings that are viewed as as out of compliance and Need more of our attention and I don't know the answer to your question of whether this is revenue source or not Chief Herman chief Herman, I think will address address the revenue issue Thank you Alderman Hannah Very enlightening Approximately eighty seven thousand dollars a year back from the state It's a two percent dues payback for doing fire inspections. This will not affect that we will still get the same amount back Thank you chief Herman any other questions regarding the consent agenda We have Alderman Vue. Thank you mayor. Just have a question on on 21 17 number two about the Rental inspection program just would like to to be clear on that if it's still on the If this program is still in place or has it been canceled? 21 17 these are for This is to file it in other words it is it will not be enacted Correct correct. Yes, this is just filing the document in other words this foot this will not be acted up Thank you. Thank you Any other questions? President Gisha, thank you your honor. I refer please to document 21 18 from public works and this is gonna be a happy note And I'd like to thank the public works committee all our city engineers city development In working if I can refer the document has to do with the Execution of participation agreement for Eisner Avenue reconstruction project and that not only required a lot of work by the city But coordination from our staff with the state as well as our neighboring partners and the townships Because Eisner running up on the north side of Shiboygan touches you know goes city towns and it's very Confusing border up there, and I wanted to thank the public works committee And in finally getting this Rolling I think the neighbors up in that area would be grateful. It's definitely a project worth doing Thank You President Gisha Okay, if there is no further discussion We are looking 21 19 has been referred back to public protection and safety. We are looking at passing the consent agenda, which is 21 1 through 21 18 and 21 20 and 21 roll call, please boron bauke Bowers Decker Gisha Hannah Heidemann Cough Kittleson Myunas Montemay or Rindflash Suric Voo and Wongamon 15 eyes motion carries 21 22 and 21 23 to be referred 21 Report of officers to 21 24 By the city clerk submitting the mayor's proposed table of organization for the city of Shiboygan President Gisha Thank You your honor. I move that the the RO be accepted and adopted We have a motion Do we have a second? Oh? It's an RO. Oh, except an adopt except in place on fire. Pardon me except in place on file On file We have a motion and a second under discussion President Gisha. Thank you if I could continue the Committee the whole met and gave the task to prong task one is a long-term vision from the new newly reef Juvenated government structure committee and then the Strategic Fiscal Planning Committee was looking at a short term The short term issue that was presented to the Committee of the whole Strategic Fiscal Planning Committee met numerous times on the issue Because there is some urgency With this looked at the finite the budget neutral regarding it and the structure and I believe the Seller and grievance committee will also meet on the final job descriptions tomorrow, so a lot of work went into Working out the kinks in this and I think it is certainly a worthwhile short-term solution Thank You President Gisha Alderman sir Think I know a lot of work from put in this organizational chart. I was hoping that Before when this thing is finalized that the discounts will receive a complete copy of job descriptions and hopefully the job description will contain a Report of the relationships with within the the organization itself that it shows all the duties that the individuals involved will be having their report to and I think more important the minimum requirements for the candidates Whether we're going to require a municipal experience or private experience whether we require the person to have an MBA or perhaps or a master's degree in public administration and Lastly, I hope we would include The salary ranges and the anticipated starting rate for these positions when they are created. Thank you Well Alderman sir, the the job descriptions are presently in salary and grievances They have been there come we're having another salary and grievance meeting tomorrow. I believe President Gisha if I may thank you your honor I concur with Alderman sir, and I can tell him that because I wrote several of them Regarding the qualifications portions of it and updated those qualifications the qualifications came from five specific cities around the state of Wisconsin of similar duties Municipal experience Everything he has to say and furthermore the council will have full view of these because it will go to salary grievance tomorrow And then the council will then have an opportunity to view those before coming back and voting on them and have ample time for inputting questions Thank You President Gisha any further discussion If there is none we have a motion on the floor 21 24 to accept and file roll call, please bulk Bowers Decker Gisha Hannah Heidemann Kittleson Clayunas Montemay or Rinfleshe Siruk Voo Wongman and Boran 15 eyes motion carries 21 25 through 35 to be referred Resolutions introduced three 21 36 by Alderman Gisha authorizing retaining outside legal counsel to represent the city in the matter of Aletta G Holloway James B. Holloway and Aletta M. Holloway et al against the city and authorizing payment for said services President Gisha, I'd like to ask for suspension of the rules and I'd be happy to give an explanation Motion in a second on suspending the rules. Thank you. This is obviously a legal matter that the outside counsel per the recommendation of our city attorney has specific Experience in and we were anticipating this Coming up and now apparently it's time and need for that outside counsel to take action on the city's behalf Thank You president Gisha on suspension of the rules. Is anybody opposed to suspending the rules? Nobody is opposed rules are suspended Your honor I move that the Resolution be accepted and adopted And passed. Thank you Motion in a second to pass the resolution under discussion There is none roll call, please Bowers Decker Gisha Hanna Heidemann Cough Kittleson Clayunas Montemay or Rindfleisch Suric Voo Wonkerman Boran and bulk 15 eyes motion carries 2137 by Alderperson Kittleson authorizing the purchasing agent to issue requests for proposals For the purchase of lighting fixtures and related equipment and for the installation of same at City Hall and the Municipal Service Building Alderperson Kittleson. Thank You mayor. I would ask for a Motion to put the resolution upon its passage, please Have a motion in the second under discussion Alderperson Kittleson Thank You mayor. This is an RFP as it says to to put out a request for proposal To assure that the city receives the goods and services at the lowest cost of course and that should satisfy all the Requirements for receiving the federal grant money if there are any further questions about this Chad Peleshech is here to explain but I think it's quite Self-explanatory here to buy the fixtures the this lighting project that will be Under this federal grant money, thank you all the plan is any discussion If there is none roll call, please Decker Alderperson Kittleson, excuse me. I'm sorry Decker Gisha Hanna Heidemann Cuff Kittleson Clowness Montemay or Rinfleshe Suric Voo Wongamun Warren Bulk and Bowers 15 eyes motion carries 21-38 by Alderperson Kisha Hanna Born and Kittleson approving the fiscal year 2010 one-year annual action plan for the community development block grant Program submission also known as CDBG President Kisha. Thank you your honor. I think this is the last one of the evening I'm asking for suspension of the rules If there's some explanation of need for suspension besides the timing of getting this report in for the government so that we're eligible for our Dollars, I think Paulette Inters is in the audience this evening Is there any discussion on suspension of the rules is anybody opposed to suspension of the rules? Nobody's opposed if not then your honor. I move that the resolution be put upon its passage We have a motion in a second to put the resolution upon its passage under discussion Alderman Bowers If I understand this correctly, this was voted on by the strategic committee Strategic Fiscal Planning Committee, correct Now I notice there's a total of a million forty three thousand two hundred and eighty five 208,000 goes for administration is that to allocate to sending out checks or what? Now if I can have a director of development Paulette Inters come up. She will explain it Thank You mayor and common council what that essentially is is 15% of the total anticipated Dollars that will be coming in and it covers the cost of staff Materials There's actually a variety of staff that's included in that it's fully fund funding several positions in addition to some dollars that are paid to The city attorney to building inspection Now there's actually a person that's being covered in engineering and mapping all Activities that are eligible under planning and administration of the funds That answer your question Alderman Bowers One question I noticed and I don't have it in front of me, but I believe 53,000 was allocated for the fire department Transit oh Okay, now was that 53,000 included in the original budget or is this something that was added afterwards? No, they went through transit went through the application project process along with the other Public service agencies So there was a night that we spent approximately three hours going through all of the applications for public service And that's actually 15% can be allotted to that. That's a maximum and the administration is 20% so I was incorrect initially Alderman Bowers if I may answer that question the 53,000 for transit was figured into transit's budget Also on that 53,000 dollars for transit we get 73,000 dollars in matching federal funds So if we did not authorize the 53,000 for transit We would actually be a hundred and twenty six thousand dollars plus in the hole Because we would not get the the federal matching funds of seventy three thousand dollars if that answers your question Yeah, some more government accounting No, it's it's it's reality if we did not authorize the money we would not receive the money from the feds So unless we can come up with a hundred and twenty six thousand bucks out of thin air That's the way it is Alderman red flesh. Thank you, Mr. Mer Many years ago when I first saw the community development block rents I two questioned program administration costs But as it turns out it's actually one of those few times that the feds seem to have it right Because they understand in this case that there's cost involved and actually Spending the money they tried to give to us and without that they would give us one point whatever million In funds, but we would have our own costs spend that money then our own staff that would actually cost the taxpayers So well that percentage seems high to me initially It actually is the case where they understand that we have staff that will operate on There we have the giving of the block rent So I do originally did question that but it doesn't make sense to me now And I actually thank them for including that within the budgets that we don't our taxpayers don't have to pay for that Good point alderman renflation. We have to remember that in Madison. They're going rate is 40% for administration. So Alderman Hannah well, thank you. This is one of the few times that we Receive a funded mandate So often we get unfunded mandates. So this is a this is actually one where they they do get it, right? I would ask perhaps If Ron McDonald could tell us what he uses the 53,000 for plus the additional 73 I think people should be aware that we're able to add some Some good services. Thank you. Alderman Hannah. Does anybody have any additional questions for? All that enters Alderman Vu For these allocations when are they scheduled to be distributed to these agencies? When will the dollars go out to the particular agencies is that what you're asking what what typically happens is after we submit our annual plan and The federal government has a time has time to take a look at it We've typically been allocated those funds in July and August this year It was actually September so it was late and then what happens after that is we then execute contracts with the particular agencies so there is a lag in time and It it essentially has to do with when how long it takes for the federal government to review our application for that funding and So the the agencies once they're awarded the dollars by the Common Council that gets submitted to the federal government they it then you know once we we get final approval, so they're actually in a little bit of a Time of limbo between April and when we're funded. That's our our year is actually April 1st until the end of March But typically they're aware of it and you know, they're they're pretty sure that the dollars will be coming in But they are taking some risk as they operate Okay Did we want do you have another question for? Director Enders Alderman Bowers The amounts That were indicated for the various organizations is that set upon by the organizations or by the strategic planning Commission What what happens is the organization submitting application for a particular amount of funding that they would like to receive and Then the strategic fiscal planning Commission listen to their presentations and then made a determination and how much they would be funded and That some of that Would say all of it was also based on need in the community and some of the planning that we had the fire five-year Consolidated plan for the spending of CDBG funds Okay, so each organization presented a plan and then the members of this Commission Voted to accept it or adjust it one way or the other. That's correct. Okay. Thank you Thank you, Alderman Bowers President Gisha Thank you your honor. I'm chairman of the strategic fiscal planning committee and I can tell you It was first of all staff does a tremendous amount of jobs and sent the job work rather and sending out these packets to various Organizations you're just seeing the ones that are receiving funds. I don't know how many they sent out It had to be dozens Those that returned them in then became part of the process We spent roughly three plus hours meeting with each one of these individual groups in which they gave presentations To us and at that time and let me tell you that's pretty depressing Right elder person Kittleson it it can be because there are If you didn't know it before you knew it after that three hours There's a tremendous amount of need in this community during the times that we're in now Our only concern I think I can speak for the committee was we wish we had more money to target these things The staff puts verifies all these applications are in place a representative from each of these organizations speaks to us for about 10 minutes prior to that we set a basic mission statement for the Commission on what we wanted to accomplish as we went through these and at the end it's a matter of of Discussion and allocation. I can tell you most groups received less I think we have less money this year to give out than other years and It's I'll tell you it's no fun doing that particular job Staff does a tremendous job and making it as easy as possible But you've come away rather depressed But at the same time you're a little uplifted because you're going to try to help in a few ways But there's many people we turned away and I wish we didn't have to but the dollars are only so many dollars a difficult task And it's comprised of the five members The five chairman of all the each standing committee So there's five people plus staff and if anybody's interested in joining that process or at least sitting in any alderman was welcome to be there Thank You president Gisha being present at that meeting. I concur a hundred percent It's a it was a very Thought-provoking process to say the least and I think everybody came out of this feeling a lot more Like the Grinch than the Santa Claus so it was It was definitely an eye-opening experience at the amount of requests and need out there in the community any other questions for director renders we can have Ron McDonald director of transit come up and explain what those transit dollars are exactly used for thank you Thank you, Paula Thank You your honor and counsel The block grant money is used by a Chewbacca transit to provide our evening in Saturday bus service One of the criteria or the major criteria for the block grants is to benefit low to moderate income individuals And what we found out is about 90 89 and a half percent of our ridership fulfills the low to moderate income ratio and With without this service they can't get can't meet their most basic needs whether it's getting to Medical appointments to gain nutrition to get to employment As I said one of their most basic needs and I think this is the seventh or eighth year We've participated in the block grant program and and without it We wouldn't have evening or hard daytime service and really what it boils down to is is Transportation being viewed at as one of their most basic needs They can't participate in many of the other programs that are available to them including going to work If we don't provide transportation and we're really trying to allow these individuals to remain independent and work for whatever jobs they can find rather than becoming dependent on the citizens and You know, I guess another thing that I'd like to mention is We've also founders. There's been studies done. This has every one dollar We invest locally in transit we receive about three dollars in socioeconomic benefit by keeping these individuals independent And I also want to expand on the the funding We are hoping to receive fifty three thousand dollars and Our request last year was for sixty three thousand and we were bumped down to fifty three thousand. We are able to Receive an additional Approximately seventy three thousand dollars to leverage to the federal and state government to help us with that program So if we don't receive the fifty three thousand will be out about over hundred and twenty Fifty thousand dollars in our budget. So it's kind of the basics of it. If anybody has any questions It's good math run. Thank you Okay, if there is no further discussion if I can remember where this conversation started here I Believe we are on the CDBG twenty one dash thirty eight Roll call, please Gisha Hannah Heidemann Kath Kittleson Clayunas Montemayor Rindfleisch Suric Vu Wongamun Boran Bauck Bowers Bowers and Decker We've got two abstentions and we have thirteen eyes Motion carries Twenty one dash thirty nine and forty lie over Twenty one forty one to be referred We are going to hold twenty one forty two four twenty one forty four reports of committee six We're talking here We have twenty one forty three by law and licensing recommending design denying beverage operators license number 2630 based upon failure to include all relevant convictions on the application His status as an habitual law violator and his failure to cooperate with the committee Alderman Boran Thank you, Mayor Ryan I move that the report of committee be accepted and adopted Second We have a motion and a second under discussion Under discussion Mayor as Andrew like is here tonight He's not here mayor Please continue Mr. Like has had two opportunities to appear before the committee one on January 12th and then by certified mail on January 26th And he didn't show up for either meeting so based on the lack of cooperation and his revelant Revolent convictions the committee voted unanimously not to grant the license Thank you Any further discussion? There's no discussion roll call please Hannah Heidemann Koth Kittleson Cleanness Montemayor Rindflash Sirak Vu Wangaman Boran Bauch Bowers Decker and Gisha Fifteen eyes Motion carries now we have twenty one forty two by public works recommending filing documents submitting a member memorandum from the wastewater superintendent regarding the amendment to the engineering agreement for digester mixing and solids thickening improvements and approving the amendment and we have twenty one forty four by public works recommending entering into a contract for digestions and solids thickening improvements to the Sheboygan regional wastewater treatment facility and passing the attached substitute resolution Alderperson Kittleson Thank you mayor I would ask for a motion to accept and adopt resolution twenty one dash forty two We have a motion in a second to accept and adopt Okay, and then I would ask for a motion to recommend that the report of officer twenty one dash forty four be accepted and adopted and that we pass the substitute resolution And a motion in a second under discussion Under discussion Bids for the improvements and the equipment to assure continued proper operations at our wastewater treatment facility Thank you Alderperson Kittleson Any further discussion? If there is none, roll call please Heidemann Heidemann Heidemann Koff Kittleson Heidemann Kallunas Heidemann Montemayor Heidemann Rindfleisch Heidemann Sirek Heidemann Voo Heidemann Wangeman Heidemann Boran Heidemann Bauk Heidemann Powers Heidemann Decker Heidemann Regarding the same issue, President Gisha As it is a duplicate dual referral, I make a motion to file item twenty one forty five Motion in a second to file because it is a duplicate Any discussion? All in favor say aye Opposed? Motion carries Twenty one dash forty six by finance recommending executing a contract with the state of Wisconsin to provide weights and measures Inspections for the period January one twenty ten through June thirty twenty ten at eleven thousand dollars and for the period July one twenty ten through June thirty twenty eleven at a rate of twenty two thousand dollars President Gisha Thank you. We kind of the same situation here only a little bit in reverse because forty seven twenty one forty seven will be a duplicate of this. So I move to The report of committee be accepted and adopted and that the resolutions as there's two be put upon its passage and we then file twenty one forty seven. Motion to Pass twenty one forty six one and two and file twenty one forty seven. We have a motion and a second under discussion If there is no discussion roll call, please Cut Kittleson Clowness Montemayor Rindflash Cirque Vu Wongamon Boren Bauck Bowers Decker Gisha Hannah and Heidemann Fifteen Eyes Motion carries Twenty one forty eight To be referred Report of committee nine Oh, I've got a light Alderman Hannah. Well, thank you, Mr. Mayor I think this is a an opportunity. I'm opposed to Going into the transportation business I think the fire we saw the other night was evidence that we need all the firemen that we have in town Focused on that job I'm calling for the finance committee to do a thorough examination of the appropriate staffing For the rigs in the city and and to come back to us So the wheat know Is our city safe? Do we have the appropriate number of firemen? And I just wanted to go on record that That part of this Study is critical to me And I don't think it's the time to be looking at Transportation that could take firemen that are very much needed like Saturday night away from the city Thank you Alderman Hannah Any further discussion on this issue? President Gisha What the heck that's what we're here for right? I appreciate the words of Of Alderman Hannah and I can tell you that that's exactly what the finance committee is going to do We're going to look at those levels as we have looked at all levels There was some discussion here this evening that Oh I thought we had a bare bones budget and where's the money going to come from well If you're part of the process and you do your homework it's really easy Call to the finance department We'll tell you that the money for these three firemen first of all are is in the budget Doesn't necessarily have to be in the fire department's budget When in December when some final change arounds were done in the budget Some people out of here inspectors all sorts of stuff originally at that time There were going to be six firefighters rehired because there were six firefighters retiring it went down to three So the staffing level was approved via the budget process The funds just didn't get moved via the transfer process so I get a little concerned when people throw around Ridiculous things to incite rather than to inform and I think that's what our job is to do here Is to inform with facts rather than then cause negative public discord with falsehoods So with that being said I agree with you and I and I can tell you that the fireman's department will Do such as such we will not have a meeting on Monday We'll give the fire department time to prepare their Presentation chief Herman did an excellent presentation at the seller and grievance committee It was phenomenal I thought I explained things very well Explained the staffing levels and the coordination between ambulance folks People think that ambulance folks just ride an ambulance that's not true Those same ambulance people were pulling hoses at Sly's restaurant in the middle of the cold and freezing So it's time that a little not only clarity but honesty enters this debate And I think the finance committee will take it upon itself to do just that Thank You president Kisha If there is no further discussion 2148 will be referred to finance Report of committee number 9 2149 by public protection and safety Recommending amending portions of chapter 138-12 of the municipal code Relating to establishment of new fees for weighing and measuring device licenses Issued by the building inspector division of the city of Sheboygan Public protection and safety Alderman Hanna Thank You mr. Mayor I move that the report of committee be accepted and placed on file And that the general ordinance be put upon its passage We have a motion and a second under discussion If there is none roll call please Kittleson Clayunas Montemayor Rinfleisch Zurich Vu Wangaman Boran Bauck Bowers Decker Gisha Hanna Heidemann and Koth 15 eyes Motion carries Ordinance introduced 10 21-50 By Alderpersons Kittleson Hanna And Gisha Repealing and recreating section 2-5 Oh, I take that back That lies over anyway However, we do have people beeping in So I might as well finish reading it Section 2-563 of the municipal code Relating to fiscal control of transit commission expenditures So as to conform with current practices We have Alderman Bauck Thank you, Mr. Mayor Because this is connected to the spirit of document 21-22 Which is a referral back to the committee of the whole I would move that this document not lie over But that it be forwarded to the committee of the whole For the same discussion that 21-22 will be part of Okay, the committee of the whole I believe the other one is also going to transit Yes Then I would refer back to both We have a motion and a second to refer this to transit And the committee of the whole under discussion If there is no discussion all in favor of referring say aye Aye Opposed? It is referred Matters laid over 11 20-42 Resolution number 171-09-10 By Alderpersons Gisha Bourne Heidemann Kleinis And Montemayor Resending 2009 real estate taxes for assessment number<PHONE_NUMBER>4 President Gisha Thank you, Your Honor I move that the resolution be put upon its passage We have a motion and a second under discussion Just your honor so everybody knows this is just Making a correction in the real estate tax bills that went out You do that sometimes at the end of the year Thank you Very good Thank you President Gisha Alderman Bourne Thank you Mayor Ryan Alderman Gisha wasn't this the one that was a church that was built in the air? Was that the one? Because I know I got an email from somebody on this wanting to know why We were sending the taxes while it was a church And churches are exempt from property taxes And that's why Thank you Thank you Alderman Bourne There is no further discussion roll call please Montemayor Aye Rinflesh Aye Surik Aye Vu Wangeman Aye Bourne Aye Bauch Bowers Aye Decker Gisha Aye Hannah Heidemann Aye Koth Aye Kielsen Aye And Kleinis Aye 15 Ayes And Kleinis and Montemayor Authorizing the use of contingency funds for appraisal services President Gisha Thank you Your Honor I move that the resolution be put upon its passage We have a motion to second under discussion Just so everyone's aware these funds as it says come of our contingency Which isn't real large And I would hope we are very careful about considering using that Quite often through the year But this would be for the appraisal of our engineering building Across the street Thank you President Gisha We have Alderman Rinflesh Thank you Mr. Mayor I agree the contingency fund is awfully small And I'm actually not quite sure why we have the need to take $2,100 of that If we are interested in selling the building let's list it And we'll pay off the listing the fee As it is if we get appraisal we decide to sell it And list it we'll still pay the commission and the appraisal fee So I would just rather just go ahead and if we want to sell it let's list it And I'll vote no on this funding of $2,100 Thank you Thank you Alderman Rinflesh We have President Gisha once again I think it's an excellent question Normally in the real estate process You establish it based on market value But in residential and commercial You very often have an appraisal done ahead of time So you can set the price Perhaps someone from building use Which I believe this sprung from I don't remember which Alderman's on it I apologize Could probably fill us in on what they're thinking was Very good Thank you President Gisha Alderman Bowers Couldn't we have the city assessor established the value Because he's the one who established his values And the city to begin with This is an appraisal not an assessment I understand that But in making the assessment You take different values Cost approach Income approach And things like that So if we have an appraisal And it comes in And the billing Whatever it sells for Is probably going to be the assessment Thank you Alderman Bowers As they say ask a realtor Alderperson Kauff Thank you Mayor Ryan I sit on the building use committee And it's my understanding that We are not hiring a realtor And we do need an appraisal Someone who's versed in commercial real Commercial appraisals And Paulette Maybe it would be a good time to call her Thank you Alderperson Kauff Being an individual who has bought And sold commercial property in the past I've never tried to buy Nor sell a property without an appraisal I think a proper appraisal is very important For listing a property For what you want to get out of it And not number one Listing it for more than it's worth And having it sit on the market until it rots Or even worse Listing it for significantly less than What it's worth And missing an opportunity to maximize What you can get out of a property That's my own personal opinion Alderman Sir Thank you Mayor I'm chairman of the building use committee And we had long discussion regarding The engineering building there And the community came up with the idea I believe you were there too That the first step would be to You know we want to make certain That we're getting our money's worth In terms of the building And what its use would be And that first step would actually have To be an appraisal Thank you Very good Thank you Alderman Sir Any further discussion? If there is none roll call please Rin Flesch No Siruk Aye Vu Aye Wangeman Aye Boran Aye Boke Aye Bowers No Dekker Aye Gisha Aye Clayunas Aye Montemayor Aye Thirteen Ayes Two Noes Motion carries 20-44 resolution number 173-09-10 By Alderpersons Gisha Boran Heidemann Clayunas and Montemayor Establishing a deferred compensation plan With nationwide retirement solutions President Gisha Thank you Your Honor I move that the resolution Be put upon its passage Second We have a motion in a second Under discussion Thank you I believe this came out of contract negotiations This was an additional option That one of our bargaining units wished to have There's no cost to the city This is just authorizing the opening up Of a relationship with them In case those individuals wish to use them As their provider for deferred comp holdings Thank you President Gisha Attorney McLean would like to weigh in I would just make a suggestion That there be an amendment on the Hereby resolved With the council meeting and regular scheduled session Says the 18th day of January 2010 That's when the document was brought in But you're adopting it February 1 So moved Second Motion in a second on the amendment And we are going to Put it up on its I move that the resolution as amended Be put upon the passage Okay We have a motion in a second to put the Resolution upon its passage as amended By the suggestion of Attorney McLean Any further discussion? If there is none, roll call please Sir Aye Voo Aye Wangeman Aye Boran Aye Bauch Bowers Aye Gisha Aye Hanna Aye Heidemann Aye Koth Aye Kittleson Aye Clayunas Aye Montemayor Aye I'm sorry Aye Thank you Ann Rindfleisch Aye 15 ayes Motion carries 20-45 Resolution number 174-09-10 By Alderman Wangeman Designating certain sites within Make a motion to resolution be put upon its passage We have a motion in a second under discussion This goes back quite a few years actually because For a long time the city of Sheboygan had no Really set plans for these Preserving buildings That everyone knows we've lost a lot of buildings Downtown that probably we shouldn't have lost And some years ago we received the grant To do a survey of the city And the city was surveyed from one side to the other And over the years we've worked on this survey And we developed a list of buildings And the way it works is if your home for instance Is designated or we attempt to designate it As a historic building The owner of course has full input Neighbors 100 feet on either side of the building Are notified A public hearing is held And this was done with the six properties That are listed here And objections were received And so hopefully this resolution will be passed And we can continue on and continue to Conserve what's so valuable to Sheboygan And that's her real estate Or I should say historic past of her buildings As a person that served on the Historic Preservation Committee For two or three years I agree 100 percent And one thing that Alderman Wangeman did not say Is that when your home is designated You receive a very cool brass plaque To put on the front of it Thank you Alderman Wangeman Alderman Boehm Thank you Mr. Mayor I just wanted to thank publicly Alderman Wangeman And you Mr. Mayor For your previous time on that committee You designated a lot of great buildings I know for some owners they worry about Does this mean the city is going to tell me What color I got to paint my porch and stuff It's not that at all It's about protecting these buildings And making sure that they're treated with the respect Due to their historic Potential historic value to the city And I appreciate his work in this effort Thank you Alderman Boehm Any further questions? If there is none, roll call please Vu I Wangeman I Born I Bauch I Bowers I Decker Yesha I Montemayor I Rindflash I And Siruk I 15 I Motion carries 20-60 General Ordinance number 50-09-10 by Alderman Gisha Obligating the city to pay all taxes Required by law to be paid by the Finance Director To the County Treasurer President Gisha Thank you Your Honor I move that the general ordinance Be put upon its passage We have a motion and a second under discussion Your Honor This is somewhat of a mop-up item In compliance with state statute 7067 Having to do with bonding And basically guaranteeing specific Payments to make its way back to the Specific governmental body that it's intended To get to Is that accurate Steve? Yes And this is something we haven't done And hasn't been requested to do for The last 20 years But somebody caught it at the county and said We should be doing this And so this document You've got two options One is to purchase a bond The other is to have the city guarantee Basically the payments of the taxes that The city collects to the county And that's what you're doing here is Avoiding having to buy the bond And just obligating the city to make sure That the payments get made to the county Thank you, Attorney McLean And President Gisha Any further discussion? If there is none, roll call, please Wongamun Aye Boran Aye Bauch Bowers Decker Aye Gisha Aye Hanna Aye Heidemann Aye Koth Aye Kittleson Aye Klayunas I Motion carries O2, gaugees 2 O 2, vergegas 10 O 2 9 o 10 O 2 Hmm Thank you, good That for now Thank you Maybe one more? Move. as ordinance came out of salary and grievance was a number it was quite a bit of discussion and I'm also going to need a motion to amend this document I'm I'm motion to amend this ordinance general ordinance okay your amendment amendment is my amendment is that we have to remove section part of section one notwithstanding the provisions of the city compensation program for non representative employees subsection general ordinance number 141 97 98 as amended we don't have a pay plan for the non non bargaining reps okay do we have a second on the amendment we have a motion in the second on the amendment and that is to it's to just take out the section in section one that first part of the sentence notwithstanding all the way through amended that refers to the pay plan okay so we're the first line after section one with starting with notwithstanding all the way through the second line and to as amended so we're section one the starting salary for the position of police chief effect in January 19 we have a motion in a second on the amendment discussion on the amendment only amendment amendment okay on the amendment only all in favor say aye opposed the document is amended now if we can have a motion to put motion to put the the amendment resolution on his passage motion in a second to pass the amended general ordinance under discussion Alderman board thank you Mayor Ryan I'm not going to be supporting either 2062 or 2063 tonight actually I support part of it and support another part I don't support first of all I don't really have a problem with the salary for the police chief in fact with the fact that he's very shortly going to have his master's degree I wouldn't even have a problem of bumping up that 99 910 to his starting salary the problem with this document that I that I do have a problem with is that is the 12% raise which would which would be a 12% raise if we did part of the raise on July 1st instead of right away but I have a problem with a 9% raise without any performance goals by the department tied to those tied to those raises we we recently well first of all our non-represented employees that work for the city have not gotten a raise in two years we just went through negotiating with all of our unions for a pay freeze in 2010 we've also laid off I think over 20 people in public works and other employees I I just I just can't support giving these kind of raises in this type of economic climate I was going to make a motion I was going to make a motion to go ahead and pass the starting salaries and send the the additional raises back to salary and grievances but I'm not going to make that motion because I think we would be reneging on promises that we made to the put to both the police chief and the fire chief but again I don't have a problem with the starting salaries but I cannot support the raises in this economic climate and based on what our other city employees have given up and are going to give up so therefore I will not be supporting either document tonight thank you thank you Alderman Boran we next have flashing president Gishit thank you the police chief and by the way it's the same 12% with the fire chief aren't getting 12% raises they should be starting based on what police and fire chiefs are paid all over the state we aren't high we aren't low we're right in the middle the research was done by the human resources department at the end of the day our police chief and fire chief will be making less than the predecessors at the end of this deal the 12% step as you're seeing that you have in front of you is a benefit to the city because of those budget issues we should be paying him a hundred nine one oh one today because that's what police chiefs are getting paid in cities of 50,000 across the state of Wisconsin actually that's the middle range it's middle to low it's not the high so what you're seeing here is a is a budget benefit to the city to take some time and step the individual into those those those additional wages so this is a positive for the city you can say oh he's getting a 12% increase if somebody would have came in here said we're paying him 109 101 nobody would have nobody would have griped but instead we're getting some benefits starting them off at 97 and moving to 109 I find it actually even a little unseemly that we're talking about this in this manner but I understand I think it's fair and certainly appropriate but I find it difficult personally the process for measurables is pretty interesting we had a lot of discussion of that in salary and grievance first the police and fire chief report to the mayor that's our ordinance the mayor sets goals and objectives of police and firemen we don't have any right to hire fire or discipline police and fire chiefs in the city of Shavuigan the mayor does salary or does reviews in the past our police and fire chiefs or anybody else in these areas receive not only increases like you're seeing here but they also receive non rep increases when we were giving non rep increases of about 3% per year we ended that process we built those percentages into this rather than the double whammy and double dip for budget purposes so let's let's just walk through a measurable let's say we want the police chief to have 20% or 20% more burglary cases cleared but if murders up 50% did he do his job if he cleared the 20% it's ridiculous that's ridiculous you fire the mayor and you fire the common council if we're not doing our job and holding our department heads of the feet to the fire that's the way it works so to say they're getting 12% raise it's it's it's not accurate it's accurate if you're looking at the paper but if you look at what's actually going on that we are starting lower and ranging into an area where we probably should be starting to begin with I think people are a little touchy with the oh look at its 12% for both all the way up but that's a benefit to the city it's a budgetary not favor I'd say accommodation to the city so the police and fire chiefs out of the whole everybody in the city every employee of the city it's probably the least measurable jobs you can put measurements on I haven't heard one person come up with any measures we had discussions about it at the salary grievance committee nobody came up with any measurement ideas because you can't 20% less fires 30% more education 10% less murders what do you do that's why by ordinance the report to the mayor and he makes those judgment calls and determines and by the way we can't even if they were horrible that's the truth they're not gonna be horrible they're gonna be great officers and the great representatives of the city I've every faith in that but please don't look at it that they're gonna get 12% raised they're taking less upfront and growing into it as a budget accommodation to the citizens of Sheboyga thank you president Gisha I do agree I mean we have professionals that have been have been hired by our police fire commission to perform these duties both of these salaries when they are at the end of their raises are below their predecessors they're below their predecessors we have to remember that they accepted these positions based upon these pay ranges now of course the council can go no you're not getting any raises however if I'm if I'm the chief of police sitting back here that is ready to uproot my family from Milwaukee and move them up here I would think twice about taking that job thank you president Gisha Alderman sir thank you mayor I don't disagree with probably both these arguments here the problem I have with this but I will vote for it is that we if we did have a pay plan existing this is a severe violation of the pay plan in the past before and off was extended to anyone I don't care any department had it was clear through salary agreements at certain levels and came to the common console in this case here we have two individuals that have been off the position they've actually been sworn into position and now we're talking about their salaries I think it's a poor way this was handled and I agree thank you Alderman sir Alderman born thank you mayor I don't want to beat a dead horse but I think I think there's very definite ways that you can come up with performance goals and for both the fire and police department I know Alderman bulk at in salary and grievances I had the same concern I did as performance goals I don't know if he wants to expound on it and do a better job of expounding on it than I do but I know in the private sector you can call them raises or you can't call them raises but you're not going to get these these kind of increases without without having to meet some standards for for your particular job so again I don't want to beat a dead horse but I can't I just simply I can't I can't support these kinds of increases even if even at the end of the day they're going to be less than their predecessors that's the way it should be they should be the rage their raises should be based on individuals not what's been done in the past or what the previous chiefs got and I think the salary and grievance committee missed missed a great opportunity before the salaries were approved to to probably prolong this another meeting with more discussion and come up with some performance goals for both of these individuals thank you thank you Alderman Bowen and no I believe this is a very civil and very civil discussion here and I also believe in performance goals earlier in the evening we we all are you all voted to pass this table of organization in this table of organization there is something called the director of operations the director of operations is one of his major tasks is going to be measurements how to measure performance how to set goals right now we don't have those in the city and not many municipalities do unfortunately private sector has them all the time in order to have performance measurements first of all you have to have a baseline you're working off right now we don't have we don't have that baseline one thing I can assure you is that all of our department heads and all of our our workers in the city in general will have performance goals in the future now will they be tied directly to salary increases that is to be seen but I can guarantee you that every department head and every employee of the city will have performance goals in the future in the future to meet and if that is any concession I don't believe that in two weeks period you can prolong something and all of a sudden come up with a baseline of measurement and here's what we're going to be measuring it's a bit more complicated than that so that's but I can I can guarantee you there will be performance measurements built into our into our operations of the city in the future thank you all the board all the man powers thank you this entire process deserves me because I attended salary and grievances and I saw the discussion that went on and I asked the question don't we get a chance as a council to vote on this and I was in the impression that we weren't by arm and get you but I guess I meant he misunderstood my question the process is backwards you people in Saudi agreements almost told the police chief and the fire chief this is the money you're getting now we're asked to approve it what happens if we don't we go back well we're our backs are against the wall as a council we should have been brought in in this process before and I guess it hasn't been done that way or it can't be done I don't understand after salary agreements I would think that you would come to the council and say this is what we proposed not after these people have been sworn in now if we don't approve it tonight what happens do we unswear these people where do we go would someone if this was not approved this evening this would go back to salary and grievances but they remain sworn in yes I would they would right unless they decided to resign all right yes so you see where I'm coming from in the first year in a council now we're up against what if we don't approve it we got a dilemma in our hands so why not somehow can it be amended or brought into like a committee of the whole meeting where this is discussed and then we approve it and then everybody knows what's going on committee of the whole does not actually committee of the whole only makes recommendations right but at least everyone on the council would know already been passed by salary and grievances that's right this has been passed by salary and grievances and brought forth to the common council for a vote isn't this kind of backwards the backwards part of it was the swearing in before the vote by the common council on the selfies is this normal so don't get me in the well is a police and fire are kind of anomalies in the in the whole system so can we unanomalyze these people no you can't unanomalyze them because they are both controlled by the police and fire commission they are hired by the police and fire commission what we get it what we get is the mayor and the council is we get the individual that we then discuss the discuss the salary with with our HR director goes to salary and grievances you know on the whole swearing in process there there were a couple of factors that figured into this we had the fire chief where we had our our former fire chief retired and that is why the fire chief new fire chief was sworn in who was appointed by the PFC on our police chief we had a an interesting situation because we had an interim police chief who was a former lieutenant who applied for the position of police chief and then was not selected by the police and fire commission even though he was interim police chief for a year when your boss for a year and then you are moved into a position of being a lame duck and knowing that you will be under ranked you will be overranked by the people that you were in charge of for the last year again it was another unique situation so what we which could have caused a lot of discord in the police department therefore we went ahead with the swearing into the police chief okay I guess if you want to blame somebody for it go ahead and blame me okay but right now we have what we have and here we are we have two professionals that are ready to do the job that are being paid less than their predecessors even at the end of their the raises in this pay schedule I guarantee you that these individuals these chiefs will be accountable for the performance of their departments because they answer to me now if we're going to kick their salaries around through committees for another month you as a council can go ahead and do that but we are where we are so if I understand the procedure we have the police and fire commission human resource director salary and grievance and finally it comes to the council correct and that's the way it would always work that's the way it's always work it can it be changed anything can be changed except for the hiring by the police and fire commission well to say the least I'm very disappointed how the system works that's the way that's the way the system is and you know unfortunately we had some unique circumstances and a lot of this was the timing by the police and fire commission I hate to say it but that's the police the fire chief was hired very quickly and the police chief took a year so that's that's where we are that's what we have those are the cards were dealt right now and here we are under further discussion all the person client is thank you mayor I don't want to belabor this anymore I do think that the fact that these chiefs are under what their predecessors finished at is okay I think that's part of when you change over people have to prove their experience and have to come on the job and function and show that they are worth a higher salary and I think that's part of this probationary period so I'm not ashamed of that at all thank you just so your phone doesn't start ringing off the hook tomorrow I'm going to try and help you out you miss spoken said that we had approved your table of organization just for the people out in TV land what we did was accept that diagram with thanks but we didn't approve anything right so that's that I would offer that I suspect what happened and I echo Alderman Bowers disappointment everybody's disappointment there was a disappointing lack of communication between the police and fire commission and our and our HR director and the salary and grievance committee that's what has caused this sort of backward approval of salary and it is unfortunate but it is what it is my my good friend and colleague Alderperson Chairman President Gisha worries that this controversy I think may make Sheboygan look a little disorganized and unprofessional to the outside people looking in on this process he even used the term on seemingly I think he's uncomfortable talking about people's pay in public I would suggest that like Alderperson client is the fact that they're making less than their predecessors is absolutely appropriate they're on the freshman the great chiefs their noble decent guys but they're untested their freshman they should be in a lot less than an outgoing top of the top of the earning curve outgoing chief what's unseemly in my mind are the comparables we use the comparables are what the comparables are but for those comparables to be so disconnected from the economic reality of what's going on in the state of Wisconsin it's really unfortunate and that's rooted in what is truly unseemly about this whole process which is that it is connected to a self-inflating pay-and-benefit cycle that begins the first time they're a represented fireman for that for the entire career in the fire department you have a self-inflating pay-and-benefit cycle that culminates in certain expectations when you become chief certain senses of entitlement to certain pay and stuff so I think this is a robust debate I think it's handled it completely backwards but the conversation that all the person born is brought up and many other good people here the way these these pay scales are I don't think it's unseemly to talk about and I'm going to vote against them thank you mr. mayor okay any further discussion if there is none we are voting on 20-62 roll call please this is the ordinance as amended taking up at non rep part okay boring bulk this is this is on the amended documents Bowers Decker Gisha Hannah Heidemann I'm sorry thank you Kittleson Clayunas Montemay or Rindflash Sirich Voo and Wongaman eight eyes seven nose motion carries 20-63 general ordinance number 52-09-10 by all the persons Heidemann Kittleson Bowers Decker Gisha and Kath establishing the salary for the promoted fire chief Alderman Heidemann thank you mayor I move that the general ordinance be put upon his passage again this motion in a second under discussion this again this ordinance has to do with the compensation for the fire chief and I will be amending it the same as the other resolution you have an amendment same as the other resolution 20-62 right to leading that portion of section number one very good on the amendment only everybody know what we're doing on the amendment taking out that one part taking out the first line same as the other on the amendment only all in favor say aye aye opposed the document is amended all the person Heidemann I move that the general ordinance be put upon a passage as amended as amended under discussion if there is no discussion roll call please bow bowers Decker Gisha Hannah Heidemann Kath Kittleson Clayunas Montemay or Rinfleshe Sirich Vu Wongamun boron no eight eyes seven nose a real nail biter motion carries oh yes Sue would like to I think I need to interrupt here after Alderman Belk's comment you if could we go back to 2124 please 2124 is regarding the table of organization Alderman Belk when the motion to accept and file I am under the impression that the council is accepting and filing and this is in place and we're waiting for the job descriptions now if that's not correct we need to go after this again that would be how I would take what the council did understand what I'm saying that's where I'm asking the question I need to know that because I've accepted five we need a motion to reconsider that document motion and a second to reconsider 2124 by the city clerk submitting the mayor's proposed table of organization for the city of Sheboygan who seconded I'm sorry sir thank you Alderman sir yeah thank him here what I would when we were initially talked about this I was playing to ask that we held a document until it had gone through the job description gone through salary and grievance and had gone through the regular procedures and then bring it back to council at the time that's with my original thought when we were discussing this issue so I moved to hold the table of organization has been Steve Steve would like to speak this isn't on the reconsideration but it is on the table of organization all that is is a chart in my view that's not the table of organization that needs to be done by general ordinance there needs to be a textual document coming in and if it's patterned off of the chart that's that's fine I think that's what you're talking about doing but that changes the table of organization where you delete this position create this position amend that position create this position with these job descriptions that is the formal change to the table of organization anything short of that is not a formal change of the table of organization it's some sort of expression of intent from the council that this is kind of how you want to go and and the formal document is going to have to follow on the circuit you're still on thank you well I would still move to hold I like to see this this whole issue come to the council as a package you know with complete job description with salary ranges reporting responsibilities and duties and then we look at as a package right now it seemed to be got we got part of the answer but not the whole answer so I still move to hold thank you we have a motion to hold we have a vote on reconsideration you know in my opinion this thing has been kicked around now I think it was at the committee of the whole back at the beginning of October we're into February and it seems that everything every time this thing comes forward somebody wants to send it to another committee put it on holders and in a different direction we also on the on the positions the three positions the job descriptions in the salaries are in salary and grievances and salary and grievances right now they've been in salary and grievances I believe coming up on the third meeting on the also we have now the government structure committee who wants to discuss the cheap operations officer salary and job requirements in the government structure committee what this has to do with the government structure committee is a mystery to me what I'm seeing here is a pattern of let's just keep sending this thing around in circles truthfully I'm getting rather frustrated with the whole thing but I'm not giving up on it I've been working on it for six months and I'm going to keep going at it this is basically as the training McLean said not in a approval not changing the table of organization it's introducing the chart and if we're going to continue to send this thing from committee to committee and put it on hold and hold and hold we're never going to get a thing done in the city so I'm reconsidering the vote we have did we have a motion to reconsider and a second discussion on reconsidering the vote only all are first reconsidering the vote only President Gish on reconsidering the vote yes based on the what Steve what attorney McLean said it's kind of a moot point to reconsider the vote if in fact it has to come through in a general ordinance anyway I agree that I think the vote of the council was giving direction that they've looked at this chart they understand the chart nobody voted against it so that kind of gives a signal to put in the rest of the work and that is completing the job descriptions completing the work from the strategic fiscal planning committee completing the work in salary agreements if the council would have voted no on it I know I don't want to spend a bunch of more time in a bunch more committee time and many more evenings or daytime meetings or whatever it is rewriting job descriptions and things like that so if the intent of the council was to give a tacit nudge however Steve McLean put it move forward then there really is no need to reckon to reconciliation and so I see you're not a reconsideration because we're doing just that so it will come back to the committee with job descriptions as alderman siric suggesting correct just the only reason I brought it up is because after you said that it just set up a flag for me saying there's some confusion as to what we just did I just wanted to make sure that everybody's clear and attorney McLean is absolutely right it can't this is the concept it's got to be changed by ordinance it has to be so can I can I make clear also that all committee meetings are open to all alderman and the public when these issues are discussed in committee meetings it's not just the people that are on the committee that are there to discuss it it's it is committee meetings are open to all members of the council and the public and and for people to to jump in after the fact with their billion questions when they don't attend the committee meetings where this is being discussed in detail and is disheartening sometimes all the person want to be our thank you mr. Mayor I also thought we were accepting this chart as it says submitting the mayor's proposed table of organization for the city of Shebraga we're accepting the chart not the action of doing it yet accepting the chart right thank you all the person not to me well I'm more mixed up now than when we started but anyway I would like to like all of them said have it in place so we don't have another fire chief police chief situation I think it's a good idea now if we're just passing something of a chart that's one thing but that seems like to me you're putting one foot in the door why not have a complete document in front of us so that we can act on this and as far as attending all these meetings I myself can attend a lot more but a lot of these people work and they can't attend every meeting that there is and believe me there are a lot of meetings in this this city next we have Alderman Boak thank you mr. Mayor no just to be clear my intention is not to frustrate you or this process or anything I appreciate your clarification sue and if through attorney mclean and president Gisha if what president Gisha said is true and I think he's right if this was a tacit nudge that says we are interested in learning more than I would withdraw my my motion to reconsider I was just based on Sue's coaching I was afraid we may have approved more than what I thought we approved but it sounds like after this conversation we didn't so I withdraw my motion to reconsider thank you Alderman Bob we have a second we have a second on the withdrawn okay so now we are just back all the person kettleson you're not he withdrew I think now Alderman sir I have gone to these meetings sorry agreement spending and this quite frank sir agreements committee has not agreed to what the job description say what the requirements are or who's reporting to what I mean to me we're still in the middle of assessing this thing and I really like to emphasize that that things begin in these committees like salary agreements and once they're they're solidified in sorry greens then they're brought to the council what a nice clear explanation or recommendation I don't think we have that yet and I think that before we approve or even accept the organization at the stands we need the background as to what we're really accepting thank you the chart itself did not come out of a salary agreements as it came out of the strategic fiscal planning committee all the more in flesh thank you mr. my impression was because of some of the cities where it's from the city clerk that this was the chart that continue to discuss and create a job for this one I think it is worth knowing that 15 of us said keep going I know it's getting frustrated but you know it's pretty unanimous it says we're still very interested in hearing what the plan is let's keep keep pushing on so my hope was that actually took it as a strong recommendation of support to keep moving forward I did not realize that it would become in this sense the bigger issue that I should have been but we're interested in hearing that more thank you all remember one question one light left president geisha thank you I I probably could have made myself a little clearer earlier I agree with Alderman suric that that it's time for salary and grievance to do its work it has been so the grievances already started this process teller give us didn't have to create from scratch the job descriptions the strategic fiscal planning committee made job description recommendations then they went to salary and grievance for changes to be made what will come out of salary and grievance with general ordinance etc is specific pay specific duties the reporting is all been worked out clerk Richards is nodding her head that was one of the things we had tremendous amount of discussions about it should be very clear had great input from all the person kittleson on the structure of the job description so that you can match them up real nice and easy the actual duties are are spelled out very clearly at some of the better job descriptions coming out of HR that I've seen so it will come in as a package it there will be no ambiguity regarding structure pay and all that it'll be all nice and neat and clear the only thing I ask is and I appreciate Alderman ren flesher's comments regarding keep the process going that should be viewed as that is just that there's six months worth of work minimum in this process if you have concerns if you have problems with the concept let them be heard because the vote unanimous earlier was not was was doing just as alderman ren flesher suggested the night's working on job descriptions the reworking of stuff through salary and grievance the working up of these charts the dozens of meetings having to do with this this structure and there's more of that to go on so if you have some comments that would cause us to pause please do because because there's a lot of work yet to be done on that so we're I guess we're taking the strategic fiscal planning committee and I think the mayor and other members of the seller and grievances taking this as being just that let's see a complete package because we are interested because if you're not what let us know thank you president Gisha okay I don't think we had anything to vote on there very good sorry lively discussion novel nonetheless other matters attorney McLean 2151 is communication from Keith Bruner requesting removal of the one-way sign on the east side of the corner at New York Avenue and North Fifth Street because of safety concerns that will go to public protection and safety 2152 is an RO by the board of contractors examiners submitting applications for building contractors license already granted that will go to oh that will lie over 2153 is submitting a claim from Blue Harbor Resorts Roygan LLC for excessive assessment risk management 2154 is submitting 64 claims from Blue Harbor condominium owners for excessive assessment risk management 2155 is submitting a claim from Jay Mackey for alleged damages to his vehicle when a city garbage truck struck his car knocking off the driver side mirror and that will be referred to risk management 2156 is an RO by the city clerk submitting various license applications for the period ending June 30 2010 and June 30 2011 and that will go to Alderman Warren and his law and licensing committee we have a motion to adjourn do we have a second all in favor say aye anybody opposed to adjourning the night I think we're adjourned thank you