Hey everyone, thanks. We're back here after lunch in Austin. Well after lunch for some of us some of us still didn't eat lunch but We're in Austin at the Linux Foundation open security summit and I want to introduce you to a Gentleman named Jonathan Lightchew and I'm really proud to say that Jonathan is the first recipient of the Dan Dan Kaminsky's fellowship fellowship From the folks at human security, which of course was Dan's company and you know as someone who knew Dan for many many years I Don't know It's kind of bittersweet to tell I got to be honest. It's a little bittersweet, you know Unfortunately Dan passed away way way way too young and his 42. Yeah, and But I'm glad to see You know his name carried on and someone doing good work anyway, Jonathan welcome and thanks for joining us on TechStruck TV absolutely, so Well, let's let's kick this off first the Dan Kaminsky fellowship. What is it? so it was created after Dan's passing by human security to commemorate Dan's memory to allow an individual or group of individuals to Do work in open source that helps improve the the you know does something good for the world and helps improve and hopefully helps Improve the security the internet Dan was well known for his kindness and his giving back to the community He was also very well known for some of his really famous security research like the DNS vulnerability that you know He silently fixed by spending I think a lot of his own time to go to every single vendor and say this is a massive vulnerability Let's get this fixed and so to commemorate his memory human created a fellowship to try to Encourage and support someone going out into the world and making some positive change in the security internet. So good And congratulations to you for winning it Jonathan just some way of background. We spoke a bit off-camera You've been doing security research now for about four years four plus years three four years. Yeah, I found some Some some whoppers one of which was was the zoom. Yeah Vulnerability that came out. It was during COVID. I remember no no This is the one the year before COVID. Oh the year before cove. Yes. Yes. Yes. There was another one There was another one. Yeah, yeah, that was a couple of ones for COVID No, I know no knock on zoom it can happen to anyone. Obviously they're during COVID They experienced ten years worth of growth and ten years worth of vulnerabilities in a week Yeah, yeah a lot of people do yeah, but Anyway But you're also working with the Linux Foundation a little bit now and and why don't you tell our Yeah, so a little bit about that. I've been very passionate about vulnerability disclosure I do open-source security research. I find vulnerabilities. I'm not doing that very actively now I've the Dan Kaminsky Fellowship. I've pivoted slightly and I'm doing more Finding widespread common security vulnerabilities and then generating thousands of pull requests to fix those vulnerabilities But I have in the past. I have something like I Think 40 is low I think I have more like CVE numbers that I've had assigned for vulnerabilities that I've worked on and so I have some experience with Getting vulnerabilities found and fixed And I'm also working with someone named Madison. She works at github. She formally worked at cert at Carnegie Mellon and There's some other people together were working as a part of the vulnerability disclosure working group as part of the Open-source Security Foundation Linux group to come up with a guide for People who have found vulnerabilities either with intention or accidentally to help guide them through okay What is vulnerability disclosure? How do you do it? What's the like? What are the norms not like, you know, you must do this But like these are the norms and this is maybe some of the history as to why these norms exist This is what coordinated vulnerability disclosure is. This is what full disclosure is This is why you might want to use these disclosure methodologies, you know The suggestion that we're putting forward at least we're putting I'm putting forward is use coordinated vulnerability disclosure first If that doesn't work, you know, here are some escalation Patterns you or escalation paths you can go down if all us fails full disclosure At least it'll get it the information out there into the world so that people know they need to mitigate this vulnerability or remove Some vulnerable package or fix it in some way. So So look our audience is pretty sophisticated. Yep, but for those of you who are not familiar with vulnerability disclosure Protocol, right the idea here and you're an extra correct me if I'm wrong But I've been out doing this a long time the idea here is if you find a vulnerability And you want to just you know can't wait to tell the world that you as a researcher found a vulnerability You probably compounded that vulnerability by a thousand fold by just announcing it and putting it out there in the public Because now every bad guy in the world who maybe didn't know about that vulnerability is gonna say oh, there's a vulnerability here Let's find an exploit before these guys patch it. Yeah, so the concept of responsible vulnerability disclosure probably started in the early 2000s, maybe even before yeah, and and It basically back then it was much simpler than it is now But basically back then it was the idea of hey let the owner of the code the owner of you know Who has the vulnerability know about it give them a reasonable amount of time to get a fix out there? So that by the time this thing goes public or is announced publicly there is a fix in place and and you know these You know newly announced vulnerabilities are not exploited.  That's why the term Responsible disclosures will been dropped from a lot of the common discourse and we've turned to the term coordinated vulnerability disclosure because the researchers are saying You know a lot of develop a lot of maintainers are saying well It's responsible if you disclose to us, and we're not going to give any information out and the rate researchers like no That's not responsible, and so there's this whole like the word responsibility and So coordinated vulnerability disclosure is the idea that researchers will come and say here's a vulnerability Here's a deadline that I'm going to disclose by we should have a fix out by then please If you don't okay, it's going to go public. You know if you want to fix protect your users This is the but you should work with me within this time frame, and that has had a Google project zero has a lot of statistics around That when you have a fixed deadline for a coordinated vulnerability disclosure that it actually has a very positive impact around getting fixes done In a very condensed amount of time and actually getting those out to users Would that being said there are? You know certain You know certain Situations where they just can't get the fix done in time and they'll work with the researcher and so okay We're gonna wait 120 days instead of 90 or whatever it is to give them time to get it out and get it out to the channel so to speak um You know and then and then of course there's the the announcement of it And then you know the good news is is over the years This has become a little bit more. I don't want to say codified But normalize which is healthy to be normalized You run into a lot of bug bounty programs and a lot of vulnerability disclosure programs that still have NDAs associated with them where they say if you disclose to our program You're not allowed to disclose unless you get permission from us And that's been a difficulty and that's one of things that I am warning people about in this guide is if you're engaged in a Vulnerability disclosure program or a bug bounty program where you found a vulnerability like a lot of the times I find vulnerabilities unintentionally or intentionally, but I'm There are a lot of bug bounty researchers or bug bounty hackers that look for Programs that have money to do the disclosure right. I'm going the other way I'm looking for vulnerabilities and then saying I found a vulnerability here It is right but when you run into these programs a lot of them have non disclosure agreements and you have to get agreement from the maintainer to disclose and You have to be really careful about that because a lot of the times when I'm looking at vulnerabilities No one saw software you need a CVE number you need disclosure and so you have to Articulate that potentially beforehand you have to say to the person. Hey, I'm not going to disclose this vulnerability to you under these terms First you need to be you need to intentionally you need to waive these terms for me before I'm willing to give you the details of the vulnerability because you can set yourself up for potential legal issues or if you're on bug crowd or hacker one You can potentially get thrown off the platform Which means that you can't make money off of other research that you're doing potentially so there's a lot of pitfalls And so communicating those pitfalls in these guides to make sure that people are making an informed decision about how they're doing vulnerability disclosure Let me just play devil's advocate. Yes So the flip side of this is if you speak to many maintainers and you say hey man What's the deal the researcher found the bug? Fix it. Yeah, you got 90 days. That's an eternity fix it. Yep You know that they're come back to you is well He only really gave us or they only gave us 45 days Or they threatened unless we give them an exorbitant amount of money, you know, that's extortion That's not that's called extortion. Yes, and and that's you know in a nice way what they're saying or You know this security researcher is so A publicity hounded yep that they just want to get it out there to get their name with it They don't care about the security implications involved in doing the responsible disclosure or coordinated disclosure. Yeah, so You know Jonathan's presenting the security researcher side But all I'm saying is you know how life is I've lived long enough to know that there's always a Million sites to every story. There's the black the white and the gray and there's a lot of gray in between Yeah, but the good news is as we sit here today. It's a lot better than I was coming up I mean I've heard a lot of the stories from previous companies and like you do any security research and you just get chased by lawyers Right Microsoft everybody. They were really really bad about that in the past and it's it is has got seen seemingly more normalized now The DOJ security researching. Yes general security researchers went You know you either a black hat.  Yeah, right? You know, what do you make a money at and so now you make a lot more money as a right is that doing stuff for the good Yeah, you could be you could be a white hat security researcher and make a living And it's thanks to Dan and people like that really who made that possible Watching one of his talks he's like, you know talking about research and stuff like that And he's like can my hat be any more white? Yeah, he was one of the good guys with it I mean because back then like with the DNS thing He literally had to go after all these vendors and say please please please. He said I think he had he said So I went to get the DEF CON group held a funeral for him And somebody told a story about he's like like somebody asked him Like do you what would you do if you found another one of those types of vulnerability? He said I wish I hope I know he said I hope I never do Because it was so much work right because he did the not that he would he would have done the work again I think but he has like it was broke well But yeah, he felt a moral obligation to work Yeah, and so he was like I just hope I don't find another one like that because it's it's it's a lot of work It's a lot of work to do that sort of coordination and and though I think it would be easier today than it was. Oh, absolutely. I think so. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I don't think that I could be wrong, but it was back in 2008 They were still cert and a lot of those things either were either didn't exist or were in very early in their maturity and stuff I think it might have been earlier. It was yeah, I was around away. I'm gonna fit. All right. Yeah I'm still secure. Yeah, that was that was when DEF CON the I think that was the year I could be completely wrong. I think it was around away. Yeah So yeah, I still secure as a company I co-founded I left in a way don't mind After DEF CON that summer. Yeah It's around that. Yeah. Anyway, um, I Wanted to go back to what you do with Linux Foundation. Yes, you work in with a bunch of folks and org and orgs. Yeah So um So Primarily the work that I'm I'm attending a lot of the different meetings the other interesting discussions that are going on I've been particularly passionate about security of repositories the repository security I Formerly worked for Gradle and Gradle is a build tool used to build 90 it's built used to build 50% of all Java applications and 99% of all Android applications So if you have an Android device you are you are you? Well, you're not running Gradle, but you are your Yeah, the app that's on running on your phone got there because Gradle was used to build it. So And so I've been very passionate about the security of the supply chain and vulnerabilities in that area and I've been kind of hoping for a group to come together to discuss the security and the risks and the Like hopefully long-term sharing threat intel around these things in this space And so I'm really glad to see that there's finally a like a grounding broad a place for like in our Community circle to for these conversations to like finally come together and have discussions around You know, what are the things that we're doing to secure these things? What are the good like controls that we can put into place to protect our end users and protect the supply chain that like is feeding you know Multi-billion-dollar companies and you know small projects, right? Like how do we protect this stuff, right? And Gradle is used to build signal, right, which is a very important Like security app, right like so how do we protect all these things? And so I'm really glad to see that these conversations are finally happening. I know it's a long time coming. Yeah Anyway, hey Jonathan, we're probably way over time and I know you supposed you supposed to get lunch lunch.  Yeah, congratulations. Thank you be proud. Thank you keep up the great work and and stay in touch


Hi everyone and welcome back to a new art journal project today I'm going to use a new set of ties to create your very own art journal This is a mini one and it is about five by five if you are wondering on the size Without taking in consideration that pointy top It's from her new collection Which is called a Archie Arabia and there is one more set of ties to help you create mini argenals Which is more square So for today I'm going to work with this one and let's take a look at the ties This is the cover one And it gives you that lovely shape You can fold it and create your cover And there are also little holes here where you can thread through your elastic In this die set you will find another big die Which is similar to the shape but without the holes and slightly smaller This is meant to use to cut out your pages And the set comes with even more dies These are two ties that you can place one inside the other to create a window And I will be working with them today There are some decorative elements like borders and different shapes And this is a big one that is going to create a lovely window It fits lovely inside It doesn't cut out all around But if you want to create a panel that you can use the other die All the die sets by Art by Marlene that create mini argenals sell out super quickly So if you like this one take it out and grab it as soon as you can Now I am going to use four leather by Art by Marlene Again it comes in different colors And I will be working with the golden one And there is another pack with three more colors Depending on what you like to do These are really easy to die cut I will be using these thin dies to round them through my die cutting machine And you will see that it's going to cut it out like butter I believe this four leather creates the perfect cover for your art journals And you will see how I'm going to work with it today Now I'm going to use my Gemini for cutting out the four leather Just because the die is quite big However if you do have a basic spell binder or Cizic's die cutting machine Fear not, the die is going to fit just fine All you have to do is to lay the material and the die like this Once you run it through then move them together And run it one more time So I'm going to bring in my Gemini platform Lay on top the golden four leather and then on top the die I'm quite frugal with this page So I am arranging it all the way to the left This way I will have enough area on the right If I want to die cut something extra Now I'm playing with the different elements from the die To try and decide what I want to use on the front to decorate it I finally went with this one to create a lovely window I'm going to secure everything on top with some wash tape Running through my die cutting machine And here is the outcome Now that I have the cover I'm going to use the other die Which is slightly smaller to die cut my pages For that I'm going with heavy watercolor paper The one that I like to use is by Arteza And you will find it linked down below I like it because it's quite thick It takes water and lots of different mediums nicely And it doesn't warp And now I'm ready to assemble my book Here is my front cover And I did use the other die four times Which means that once I put everything together I will end up having 16 pages front and back Before I put it together Notice that the cover is quite flimsy And I want to stabilize it somehow So I die cut one more time the pages I'm going to cut it in two separate pieces And I'm going to use them as a backing Stick it at the back of the cover Front and back This way I will not have a soft cover But it really depends on what you want your book to look like And since I'm going to stick one of those pages At the back of my front cover Then that gives me the opportunity To create a little scene that you can see Through the window at the front So I'm using my pencil Just to make a mark on where this window is going to fall Once I stick it And now I know exactly where I need to create my little scene Now you can work with any medium that you like Since I made all these pages out of watercolor paper I can go with acrylics I can go with inks I can go with anything I like With sprays I decided to go with my distest oxide inks here And I'm mixing three different colors In a shade of blue Plus a little bit of black towards the top I'm going for a night sky Which is going to show through that window After some quick blending I'm going to lay on top the cover And see how it looks And I was super happy with that So I'm going to move on and do some die cutting Now this is a little mini art journal book That I am creating For playing with the new collection By Art by Marlene The Archie Arabia Collection So that's why I love Absolutely love that shape And for the front I'm going to use a die set That gives you all those little houses There are even palm trees That you can mix and match There is a moon stars So finally I picked one palace A palm tree That I die cut from black cardstock And then the moon and the stars That I die cut from yellow cardstock Now I'm going to use some glue at the back And stick them down Making sure that they show through the window This way I am creating a night scene And I'm going to embarrass it With the stars and the moon on my sky Now if you notice this die cuts out the windows As well as the doors If you are going with a colorful color scheme Then of course you can use multiple colors To put this little palace together Since I'm going for a night scene I decided to use just yellow For some of the windows And the rest of them I just filled them in with black The moon has some tiny stars hanging from it I'm not going to use them So I just chopped them with my scissors Now I'm going to put my moon down As well as a few of the stars And if you are new to Argyllling I think that this size of mini Argyllnas Is perfect for you Just because you don't have to cover up a big area You can be creative every day By creating something small Especially if you come from the card making world Then you do have whatever you need The supplies, the stamps, the inks To create little projects just for you Now on the pages that I die cut I went with black gesso at the back And I'm using some double-sided tape all around So that I can stick them together You can use any type of glue I just found that this double-sided tape Worked just fine And keep in mind that the back of this Four leather feels like felt So here it is nice and sturdy as you can see It's not flimsy at all So I ended up having a hard cover Now all I need to do is to thread the elastic And I think black would go perfectly with my color scheme However, I didn't have any Make sure that this doesn't end up too tight Since you need to be able To put the pages in and out easily To finish off my front I'm going to use a phrase from the sticker book That says this is where magic happens I'm going to stick it on top of black cardstock Just to make it more sturdy This way I can glue it down on the faux leather And finally I did use my white gel pen to add some details Both on the phrase As well as on the shape of the actual book Now I have my mini journal ready to go And I can create a little page Anytime I have some time However, I will show into it When I created the book That I couldn't help it And I went ahead and created Two pages for the inside So I'm going to share them with you today I'm working on four pages at the same time For this one I'm going to work with gloss spray by Dina Weekly This is acrylic paint So it dries permanent And I find that these sprays are slightly clogged But they still work I was too lazy to go to the sink And clean up the nozzles So just went with it And I think that they looked just fine Here I'm spraying some water To help them move and blend together And I will repeat the same thing on the back So I will end up having four pages with backgrounds On one go So I'm going to work on one of them And I'm bringing in one of the newest stencils That gives you this lovely design I'm going to place it on one side And I will go over it with black soot I usually like to frame my adjournals By having some darker sides I usually like to frame my journal somehow By having darker edges And that's what I'm going for here However, you will see that later on I will change my mind And I do change my mind many times While I am creating my original pages And this is where you will be able to see The beauty of working on top of glossy sprays So anyway, I will come back to that later I'm just continuing adding bits and pieces On the background This time I'm working with a white pen And this is acrylic paint marker I'm going through some of the designs From the stencil I'm not going to go over the whole design I'm just picking bits and pieces here and there So now this is where I remove the stencil And I like how that white stencil areas look And I didn't like the black one Now from the die cut booklets from this collection I picked a couple of palm trees as well as the palace And if you notice the shape of this palace Is the exact same one As the one that I have on the front cover But however this is enlarged And already colored There is also a stencil that gives you this So that you can customize it and make it your own Now I'm creating my little scene With the palace, the couple of palm trees And I'm really happy with the outcome Nice and colorful I'm sticking everything down with my nouveau de luxe glue But again, use whatever glue you like And now let's go ahead and remove that black That I didn't like I'm working with a baby wipe And I can just wipe off all that black Suit that I have there That's because the background is a non porous surface And it is kind of glossy I did use Gloss Acrylics by Dina Weekly Which is actually acrylic paint So it is really easy to remove it Now bringing in some more elements That I popped out from those Arce Arabia booklets And I'm sticking down a couple of borders Just to make everything nice and neat I'm using my scissors to cut off any excess paper And I did pop out some lovely dots In different colors and shapes They look like small mandalas And I think that they are going to add Something whimsical on my page I made sure that all of them are in different color And I love this collection so much The design makes me feel as if Aladdin with his flying carpet Is going to pop out of my page at any moment Like always I'm going to add some highlights here and there And I'm not using any black lines around the design There are black lines already And before I stick them down I forgot to show that on camera I did go around the edges With a black pen, a black marker Which is something that I like to do To get rid of that white edge I'm adding some white highlights here and there And I'm using a white paint marker This is from the Jane Davenport collection I did use it previously in another video And I loved them So I'm going to keep using them a lot And you will see them popping in my videos Again and again And now it's time for the quote For that again I'm picking one of the stickers From the sticker book And I went with stop to see the beauty Along the way I like to chop it in smaller parts And stick it down And then I go all around it With a black marker Again the black pen that I'm using here Comes from a set that includes 10 different black pens These are the Fine Liners By Jane Davenport Love them And I will keep using them So here is the one with the black and white paint markers This is the one with the 10 different nibs That I'm talking about And you can see here Some close up photos on the first page for today Now today I'm going to share one more page From my mini art journal And if you want to see even more Archie Arabia Pages for this book Let me know in the comments below So this time I went with my Distress Oxide Inks For a completely different look This is going to be more muted Although I'm using very bright colors Remember Distress Oxide sprays Never dry as bright as you see them now They are going to be very muted And they will have that chalky finish Once they dry out If you want to keep that vibrancy Go with dilution sprays for example These are going to stay nice and bright Now I'm working on the back Again with the same colors These are Fired Brick and Spiced Marmalade And once again with one go I end up having four backgrounds Now I'm going to spray on top with Wild Honey And I'm bringing in this lovely design This is a new stencil I believe it's number 14 They don't have names They do have just numbers But you will find linked everything down below So check them out At one go I am adding stenciling on both pages So I have something ready to go for another day And I am going to add some splashes Just to add some more interest on the background And I'm using for that both Fired Brick As well as Spiced Marmalade Which are the colors that I used for the background So for this page I decided to have those lanterns As my focal point I'm going to pop out some of them And when you are using those die-cut booklets You cannot have a quicker and easier Arginal page Just pick different bits and pieces They are guaranteed too much together Since they are made from the same designer Same color combos And they work lovely together Before I go ahead and stick everything down I am repeating the same technique that I did for the first page So I am using again the same stencil And I am going over it with a thin white gel pen I love having white details on my background And I usually add them by adding some white splashes For this page I decided not to add white splashes However I do add some white through those stencils And now it's time to stick all my lanterns down For that again I am using Manuvo Deluxe Glue I am making sure that they are not all in a row Some are up and some are down Just to make it look more interesting And once everything is down I am going to use a ruler And draw some strings with my black thin pen And if you want to add extra texture on your page You can of course use some thread Instead of those black lines And here is another idea You can make something similar Christmas themed If you have some different stamps With ornaments, Christmas ornaments That you can hang from the top of your art journal page Now it's time for my favorite highlights I am going to add them here and there I just like the whimsical look that they use And they look as if they are shining In the sticker book there is a phrase that says Keep looking where the light push in And I think that is the perfect sentiment To go with a page with lanterns So again I am going to cut it smaller And stick it down Now since the background on this sticker is black I am going to highlight it with white all around And I am going to call this page done Both pages for today are really quick and simple to create But you will have lots of fun making them So it's time to put my little book together I am going to place one inside the other As well as the two other empty pages And then thread them through the elastic Below in the description area You will find links to everything I used The whole Art by Marlene Archie Arabia collection Is available at Chogles at the moment And here is a quick flip through on my mini art journal Where you can see the finished pages As well as the six more backgrounds That I have ready to go for another creative session So I hope that you had fun today That you got inspired Let me know in the comments If you want to see the rest of the pages That I will create for this mini art journal book Thank you all so much for spending some time with me today And I hope you will all have a lovely week


Certainly for me when I started vegetarian journey, like that wasn't easy. To me it was like, oh it's easy to just take out meat, but like keep the rest of the things. In my mind that's already good enough to transition to vegetarianism. Why wouldn't you just eat the dairy cows and their egg-laying hens? They get slaughtered, do you know that? The point is, change is very difficult. I have to push back on that. You're talking about moving your hand to the plant milk. You're talking about moving from the eggs to the tofu. I didn't really think more so into these practices into what actually happens. Well you know what happens to fish. No of course. So we know what happens to fish.  No no no, please don't. It will put you on the hook and maybe you'll have some empathy. What I'm doing now, and I'm very much aware of it, is it goes against my values. Are you setting an example you'd want others to follow? I have a cod here. Yeah. And there, should we give them a name? No we've been not giving them a name because I'm about to torture them in this tank. Please don't. So what's your name bro? My name is Misha. Misha, nice to meet you. I'm Belly. So on the side here says Wyatt New Vegan. And I want to discuss ethical veganism with the people who aren't vegan. Are you vegan? I am not vegan. I've been vegetarian for about eight years. Until very recently actually, this summer I started eating fish. So I'm now a pescetarian. Yeah, but I do understand the moral implications and also the environmental effects of veganism. And it is very good for plants overall. What do you think the moral arguments for veganism are? Well, in terms of morality, I think what is happening overall is very horrific. If you think about it, billions of cows are murdered every year and billions of chickens are murdered every year among other animals. If you think about it, like every life is precious and every animal deserves to live.  We are born equal, I believe. And we adjust the same where we are just the other animals as well. Just because we are on some sort of intellectual pedestal above those animals doesn't mean that we get to decide who deserves to live and who doesn't. We're equal and we shouldn't decide to kill them, I think. So should I go vegan now or something? Is that a great speech? So that's interesting that you say that because the reason I'm vegan, I'm concerned with animal rights. And animal rights are the way that some people get tripped out when I say animal rights because they think that I'm expecting rights for chickens to vote or something like this. But really we're talking about they're right not to be interfered with, enslaved and murdered, things like this, things like negative rights like don't do this to them. It's really easy to draw this parallel when you put humans in place of the animals and fundamental human rights. So what I would like to get into is why you are eating fish and dairy and eggs because in those industries animals have their rights violated and they also have their welfare violated in a horrible way. But the reason they have their welfare violated for the most part legally is because they don't have rights. I believe they're born with moral rights because of their inherent value just like you and I. We're born with our sentience, consciousness and what happens to us matters to us so we have inherent value. And I believe animals share that property with us so it's wrong to violate their rights for our own interests. I mean truly like it's comparably you could compare this to slavery and genocide what is happening to them on the farms realistically. It is a truly horrific sight if you've ever watched those videos what how these productions work. It is truly horrific and if you compare with if you think of it in a human context it's just so so so disgusting. Yet many people are I think blind to what is happening because we don't get to expose to it that much right. You got to supermarket and you just see meat and you kind of disconnected with that product. And I think that's why for a lot of people actually that they continue eating meat, fish and consuming animal products. Is that true for you because it feels to me like because you're doing the dairy and eggs and the fish.  But it's a lot more disconnect with milk and eggs and maybe even the fish because they're like not a they're not a mammal. Yeah certainly when I started when I just turned vegetarian about eight years ago for me certainly it was a moral reason to do so more than environmental. But consuming animal products seemed better. It seemed like dietary wasn't much of a change for me. It was just literally taken out meat products out of my meals. But the animal products were kind of still there and it was just easy transitionarily it was quite easy in terms of my diet and also the disconnect. It seemed that the animal products they are more humane derivative you know instead of slaughtering animals. When you're talking about animal products you're talking about animal byproducts like milk and eggs you're talking about. Milk and eggs but all that stuff right so it seems that those products can certainly be derived in a more humane way. What is your definition of humane so I know what you're talking about. So the organic and free range stuff like when you know the basically when animals are treated well and they're not sort of caged in a very like small spaces and they're looked at generally really well. So when you say looked after really well. Yeah. What is your metric here you're talking about in what are you comparing well to are you comparing it to factory farms or some other horrible torture or. Well yeah basically traditional farming that has been in place for for hundreds of years compared to that. Yeah.  Right. Do you believe that I have moral culpability and putting in demand that tortured that dog meat because obviously you buy these animal products right. And obviously you've justified it to yourself or maybe you haven't I'm just trying to get to the bottom of that. Yeah. I believe in that that me creating a demand for a certain thing. I have culpability in creating that demand. Yeah certainly. I mean if there was no demand there would not be an industry for it. Yeah. That is that is exactly what what happens and that's how economy runs really. Yeah. Right. So indeed if more people turned away from consuming those products there will be less less off the strain on animals and less of those of those inhumane practices. I would like to know what you believe happens to these animals in the dairy and egg industries that you support. Right. I mean I do not know too well what exactly is happening. And again I guess it's more so a place of comfort. You know if you don't know exactly what's happening morally it is easier to consume those products. I guess. And in day to day life you don't really think about it as well. So you know it's kind of and you can make the same argument for eating meat as well I guess. You know you don't really think about it. Why wouldn't you just eat animals? Why wouldn't you just eat the dairy cows and the egg laying hens? They get slaughtered. Do you know that? Yeah I know. So why wouldn't you just eat them if you're paying for the dairy and the eggs? I know. I mean my grandfather he had a farm and I used to see chickens and goats getting slaughtered. And I think for me that was that was what ingrained in me that sort of the picture of murder and suffering of those animals. And to me I've always viewed them sort of similar to us. I don't consider humans to be of any different to any animal right. There's differences but we share some valuable things in common. Indeed. It's consciousness and you know we're animals. Yeah exactly. So to me that always was like a huge thing. Like animal life was precious to me and I whenever I can I try not to impose any harm. Even on like you know small insects and stuff like that whenever I can I could I try to you know save them if I like find a spider or something in my shower or something like that you know. But let's focus on like you know you don't eat slaughtered animals because you have a preference not to because of your witness. Yeah. The egg and dairy the egg and dairy cows or the egg laying hens and the dairy cows will go to the slaughterhouse to even in a free range situation they do. So yeah and you believe they're having their rights to life violated when they go to that slaughterhouse. Yeah. Yeah. I mean certainly certainly. So you're feeding people who eat these dairy cows. You're basically putting into demand an industry that slaughtered dairy cows and puts them in burgers for McDonald's. Yeah. I mean. Or whatever mints product they go into. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I do not deny that fact. Yeah. Certainly by just merely consuming it I create those demand that demand and. So where's the line. So what I'm trying to figure out. Yeah. Like is now you've got dairy and eggs here and fish here. Yeah. And you've got slaughtered animal bodies and factory farms over here where you don't you don't want to support. Yeah. So why is it why have you made this distinction here. Again so for me it was it was more so the ease of the transition between the meat eating and the other side to the more sort of moral and more environmentally friendly side. To me it was like oh it's easy to just take out meat but like keep the rest of the things. Yeah. It was it was not it was not based on a complete morality but more so on the comfortable transition between the two because I initially I did not think I would be able to. To make a successful transition to a completely vegetarian diet. I thought it would be too difficult so. So you could step and you stayed there and you've taken a step back and started eating fish again. Yes indeed indeed. Yeah. So because there's a bit to unpack here. Yeah. Because like basically if you haven't if you have a essentially if you had a in a human rights position you wouldn't allow free range. Trade equalized human beings to go to the slaughterhouse so you could take milk from them or you know if you treated the human beings like property is that essentially so you could get some products from them. I don't think you would you probably have a hard line against that. Yeah. I assume you've got a soft line here that sort of leaks into these other industries that you don't mind supporting or that you feel is justified or you have like you feel like you're doing enough maybe because you know a lot of vegetarians feel like well this is my line. You know I'm comfortable with eggs and dairy. I'm not comfortable there. And you've got fish there too. Yeah. Do you believe fish are sentient? I do not know and I do not have the answer in that way but I do believe that they deserve to live and they deserve to not have that those rights violated not the freedom of movement or their life. They deserve to be free as any other animal. Well they have to be sentient if you believe that. Otherwise if they're not sentient why would you why would I care. I suppose. Yeah. They have to be sentient basically conscious of their experience aware of what happens to them. They can feel pain things like this. They have a brain. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean because you're in line with the consensus they're not all see animals are sentient like oysters and things like this. Obviously I don't really give a damn if they're not sentient if they don't have awareness or you know so animals sentient animals deserve the rights. Definitely. But then there is also the circle of life and like the food chain. Like are you going to impose moral implications on say a predator for eating its prey. Right. I mean that's a separate question. I mean omnivorous animals. Right.  Of course they do. And so do humans. Why is there a difference. Why is there a difference. Yeah. Obviously animals kill each other in nature too. And we would say in human civilization that's an immoral thing to do. And you know we wouldn't say because of our omnivores we have carte blanche to act how animals act in nature. Obviously we've developed ethics and morals in order to function in civilized society to point to nature and say that animals eat other animals.  We wouldn't you would never apply that out to our own race to other people. We wouldn't say oh yeah well I can do this because lions kill each other's babies and things like this. Yeah.  And they're obligate carnivores. Obviously when we're talking about ethics and morality we obviously we have a good fundamentals for that already. And we basically we have human rights already. So why are you putting into demand industries that clearly violate the rights of these sentient animals. And would you would you do it if they were trade equalized kind of human beings. Because you believe we're equal. You said you went as far as to say we're equal. I don't believe we're equal. Right. I believe we share properties in common like sentience that make us both have inherent value. But I think we're very different. But you said we're equal. Right. So if we're equal and this fish is going to be dragged out the ocean suffer and die.  Then you wouldn't eat a human. No. Clearly. Definitely not. So we're not that equal. I guess so. Right. But like going back to what we were saying morality is very I mean it's a very human centric thing. It has been developed by us. It's not an absolute rule. It is subjective. It is very subjective to human experience. So the morality and the rights that we have developed those are very human centric. And they will always be that. Well, I would still say like even though we created this concept of morality, which is very, you know, it's great that we have this. I mean, you know, but we can't just your morality shouldn't contradict itself.  Otherwise you have a clear contradiction there. Like I can't say like I value you as a human being, but the camera woman there like I don't value her because I have made this arbitrary decision to. Violate her rights. And I like you quite a lot or something like this. You would say, well, why you're basically arbitrarily selecting who deserves rights and who doesn't.  So who cares? Like who said, what is it grounded in? We made it so I can just pick and choose. Well, no, it should be consistent. Okay. Yes. So when we have these animals over here, we have these eggs and dairy, which is the rights violations of these animals. And over this side, you've basically drawn an arbitrary line. I mean, yeah, exactly. Exactly. But then is that justified though? Is that justified? I don't know. I get what I'm doing now and I'm very much aware of it is what it goes against my values. But changing things is sometimes difficult, even though you're aware of these moral choices. I mean, if you even for some immediate eaters, right? I'm sure some of them would agree that that is probably against their moral compass, right? Of course. But these changes are not always easy. And certainly for me, when I started vegetarian journey, like that wasn't easy. And now I'm very painfully aware even more so than I was before of the morality of killing the sentient beings and violating their rights. But also the environmental impact, which is also quite massive. Of course. That's a separate, that's a whole separate, that is a separate discussion because it's not to do with vegan ethics. It's to do with there are some, there are some places where environment and animal rights might intersect in some way. But that's a completely different topic because you can violate animal rights and it'd be good for the environment like hunting. And I'm not for hunting. I think it's murder. So the most environmentally friendly thing to do would be to, I mean, you could think of human beings with the most environmentally destructive human animal on Earth. You know, if you can think of killing human beings would be very good for carbon footprint. It would still be a human rights violation. You see how these two topics, they clash. Yeah. Certainly. But like it's the point is change is very difficult. Wait a second. I have to push back on that because because buying an egg or buying some milk at the shops, like you're talking about moving your hand to the plant milk. You're talking about moving from the eggs to the tofu. No, but it's the fundamental change in your diet. It's every single meal you have.  So that's different. That's a taste preference. Yeah. So that's not a practical argument. When you say difficult, what do you mean by difficult? Well, you get used to a certain way of life, right? When you wake up, you do certain things in a day that are habitual, right? And certainly something like eating meat and eating dairy and milk products and all that, right? That is like you've grown up a certain way and the further you go along in life, like the more deeply rooted that kind of way of life is. And so making certain changes would be arguably a little bit more difficult later on in life than earlier. I get you. I get you. I feel you. It's like a habit that you've developed over time. Yeah.  I used to be a violent gang member like 10 years ago. And I went to prison. I got sober and I turned my life around. Now, where I'm from, I spent 12 years in a very violent environment. Like, I mean, incredibly violent and violence was like a way that we communicated. Stay away from me. Don't steal that off me.  Now, it was actually quite difficult for me to change right now. It's almost all out of me. Like, unless it's in a self-defense situation, obviously I can switch it on if I need to. I mean, I don't use that as my way of going through civilization or society anymore because I'd be an outcast. Wouldn't I? Yeah. I'd be put in prison. Yeah. Now, I've learned that. Now, that was difficult, but that doesn't justify me going around punching people because that's how we used to do it back in where I'm from. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.   I'm sure you would say, oh, it's a little bit hard to choose something else, but I'm going to because that's too much for me, human beings. No way. I'm not doing that. Okay. I mean, the way I view it, the mass murder and the mass exploitation of animals is definitely horrific and it definitely has to stop. I mean, the numbers are absolutely huge. And if you think of just the sheer number of it, I mean, there are billions of individuals, individual animals, you know, being slaughtered and being exploited. That is a huge number. I mean, just to think of it, like that's, it's just massive. Think of sea animals, it's trillions. Yeah. Absolutely. Masses and masses and masses. So definitely when we're talking about the mass murder and like with the increase of human population and increase, increase in demand will rise ever so even more and more at the time. So definitely these practices that we have now, they are unsustainable and immoral and we cannot continue them. We agree on that. So what I'm trying to find out, right? We agree. Yeah. You're very, you're well-versed on this and you're educated on the topic. But what we haven't got to the bottom of, which is what I'm really interested in is undoing why you've made this arbitrary line. Yeah.  Do you buy free-range eggs? I do. Yeah. Okay. Do you know much about free, I can just educate you on free-range eggs. Yes. I mean, but this is a welfare risk argument. But the, but you know, you can't actually buy a free-range egg in the UK right now. Actually, they're all barn eggs because they're, or bird flu they've been left inside. But even if they are let out, free-range egg barns, there are 16,000 birds in a barn. So they're essentially a factory farm without cages in there. And there's no way for them to develop normal hierarchies and pecking orders. And the animals are bred, a certain breed of animal, selectively bred over time to produce egg after egg after egg after egg.  And then it's basically just full on like animal slavery. I don't know how else to explain it. They're machines to lay eggs. Yeah. And they are all sent to a gas chamber to be slaughtered and their bodies eaten, not necessarily by human beings, pet food, this and that. But you know, I've got a suspicion they're going to human food. But that's prolonged suffering and yeah, for eggs. So that's a free-range situation. Well, that is absolutely horrifying. The description and the imagery, it is absolutely horrifying. Truly. Well, this is common. This is common practice because most of the eggs in the UK, I think 50% are classified as free-range. So it's basically we're taking away these cage scenarios and we're just putting all of our demand into free-range and they need to meet that demand. So they have to have mass production.  Almost everyone. Do you ask almost everyone that eats eggs? Always get free-range, man. Always get free-range. Well, then you're creating a demand for factory farmed free-range eggs. Yeah. No, you're right. You're right. I don't think I've created personally that line on... No, you haven't created that. No, no, no. You're not really responsible, honestly not. No, no, I think I haven't created that line with a very deep thought. Okay. You know what I mean? It was at one point, for me more so, it was like at one point, I want to make that change. And in my mind, that's already good enough to transition to vegetarianism. But then beyond that, I didn't really think more so into these practices, into exactly how we get these animal products and what exactly, what actually happens.  No, of course. So we know what happens to fish. No, of course.  No, no, no. No pun intended. Please don't. No pun intended. It will put you on the hook. Maybe you have some empathy straight away. No. But you know what happens to fish. What happens to the fish that you eat? Let's just talk about that. Well, I mean, there are various ways in which they are caught. Some are more sustainable and some are more humane than others. But let's talk about the more humane ones.  What's going on there? I do not, I'm not well versed on that topic at all actually. But like, but I know there are various practices. Sustainable doesn't mean humane.  They birth more humans every year. So like, I mean, I'm not really concerned with what's sustainable. Yeah. But I might not be as well. Like, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Murder can be sustainable if there's enough population growth. Certainly. Certainly. Yes. Yeah. I guess because of the demand. I think there is, there is like that demand needs to be met. And so there are either sustainable ways to meet the demand or not. And so in the world where we are looking to increase sustainability, those practices are better. That might not be our goal though. I mean, certainly. There are certain things that are incredibly egregious, that cut against, that might actually be sustainable. So I'm more concerned with the rights violation of the fish. And if they're sentient, they obviously deserve some fundamental rights. So I want to know how these fish are being humanely killed. I actually do not know. I say I do not know exactly. I don't think it exists for fish. You know, there's no slaughter guidelines on fishing boats. No. I mean, even if you go into like a UK slaughterhouse, at least they got guidelines. Whether or not they're adhered to or not, I mean, that's a different story. But they got guidelines. I don't think kit murder can be humane anyway, because they don't want to die. And it's not our, it's not our, who are we to dictate who lives and who dies so we can eat them? I don't see a justification for it. But, but with fish, are they suffer the most in terms of if you're just concerned with welfare, like fish are, fish are suffering in horrible ways, suffocating to death on the, on the boat decks. And. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely a lot to think about. I think more so for me to research about, I don't think again, like these like the questions of morality and the questions of rights, like if you don't research them, and if you don't think about them, certainly it's easier, it's easier to go on along with the, with the practices you, you, you've put in habit, right? Put in place. And so because, because I haven't properly thought of it, it for me, it doesn't, it doesn't seem like a question, and a very deep question for me, whether to eat or not. But you went back to fish, right? So I want to know, because a lot of people do go back to fish. And I think it's, it's because they are different to mammals and they're, they're, they're so far away from us, like in terms of the anatomy, and you look at a fish and there's no expression in their face. And it's like, how do I empathize with a fish kind of thing? Yeah. I think more so for me, it was, it was that, like it was, that they're a little bit different to other animals. But at the same time, not. I don't know.  So I've had a fish right here, right? Let's do this thought experiment. I have a fish here. They're in a tank. What kind of fish do you eat? Just out of curiosity, because I want to put that fish in a tank right here. Let's just say cod. A cod. Okay, I have a cod here. Yeah. And there, should we give them a name? No, better not give them a name, because I'm about to torture them in this tank. Please don't. So there's a cod in the tank. Yeah.  And I'm, and I'm the, the cod is like moving around and showing to us with their behavior that they're, they're being caused pain. Would you try to stop me? Yes. Why? It's just horrible. Like you're literally just torturing an animal, right in front of them. What is torturing an animal matter? Again, because it goes back to believing that they are saying sentient, right? Someone in there, basically that I'm torturing. Yeah, you're causing suffering. Okay. Okay. What about this? I've got a gun and I'm going to shoot them directly through the brain, right?  I don't know what cod preferences are, but I've got a gun now.  I'm going to shoot this cod. Would you allow me to do that? Provided it went straight through their brain, didn't cause them any suffering. I think not. No. Why do you care? It's just a cod. For me personally, I don't want to see the suffering and the killing. Well, the killing isn't suffering. It's murder. So I prefer not to see that, you know what I mean? And even though I do eat it, I don't see it. Well, you pay someone to do the same thing. Well, it's not even that situation. It's actually the other situation where they're being tortured first for fish. But obviously as an animal rights activist, I'm always just concerned with torture. I'm also concerned with the fish's right to exist without us being interfered with. You're paying someone to do that exact thing almost. You know, the torturing and the killing. True. So you talked about disconnect at the side of the conversation. What would it take to connect the dots and make that decision? Because, you know, like your actions have ripple effects.  And you can be part of that change. And I'm wondering if you've got this, if you're like, I don't eat these animals, but I eat these animals and these animal products, which go, they go to the slaughterhouse, they get tortured and killed. You really don't have a consistent ethical framework. You're really not doing, because for these animals here, it's just as bad for them as it is for these animals here that you've arbitrarily selected not to contribute to that. Yeah, you're right. You're right. The original consistent framework, moral framework in this, I think some choices are better than others, obviously. Of course. Because only because some choices are much worse than others. Yeah. And comparing it to something that's like, was so bad, then anything's better than that. Then that's not very good. Let's compare it to best case scenario. Not killing, living vegan, respecting animal rights. Obviously, shooting animals in the head without them suffering is still horrible compared to that. Yeah. No, truly. Yeah. It is just a very, very tough thing. One thing from one side is personal preference, whether to not eat or not. And a lot of people, I'm sure wouldn't have thought precisely on the implications of their choices, that their choices make on other people around them. But certainly that is, it is quite huge. And especially when we're talking about families, say, you know, parents would be eating fish and meat and all that, that would transpire into the lives of their family and their relatives. Are you setting an example you'd want others to follow? So I'm saying, if you said to me, Joey, this is how I want you to live. Just eat fish, dairy and eggs. And then I said, okay, everyone in the world, if I could click my fingers, everyone just kill the fish, the dairy cows and the egg layers. So see, as I started this conversation, I was aware of that these choices are not great in terms of moral reasons, nor in terms of the environmental reasons, which we haven't discussed, but they are huge as well. Of course. That's not the question. I'm aware of these practices. That's not good. But for me, I guess, again, this is deeper rooted in disconnect, right? That I have not thought about these things. And I don't think about these things on a daily basis. But things like that, what you do, these discussions, they matter. That's why this matters.  Even though I eat fish, to me that is an unbearable image. That's crazy, isn't it? It is. But because of that disconnect, my day-to-day life, I don't really think about that. I use animal products and I just go along with my day as if nothing happened. From the standpoint of consumerism, you're already disconnected from it. That's how the industry runs. I think if we were presented more with these images, with this information, I think people would be thinking more about it. But that's not the case. It's not the case. And also, I think with something like fish, you obviously know there's a fish chopped up on a plate there. Yes, it's disconnect, but obviously it's a chopped up fish. True. So obviously they were murdered and chopped up into pieces. Whether they suffered or not, they mostly suffer. They're mostly tortures.  So fish is a bad example because the welfare is so bad for fish that they're really, all the time, there's some horrible torture going on to them. But what I'm saying is, when you look at the plate, you see a chopped up animal. You see them chopped up. Like if there was a chopped up human, okay, so there was a human arm on the plate, you wouldn't have to question how that arm got there. Yeah, but if you see like a steak, it's not like a whole fish, right? If you see like a steak, right? That is a little bit different to seeing like an actual, like full-on animal, right? Like an actual fish in front of you. You can walk through a butcher and not picture an animal and just see me because the animal heads have been removed and it's been taken away from what they were. But if you look like fish in the eye, right? If you see like the actual dead fish, right? And you just see, like, look at it in an eye, it's a much different experience to looking at a steak. Have you seen fish be eaten alive? No. In our banks and things like this? No. Do people do that? Yeah, yeah, they eat fish alive or they put fish on a plate. The fish will still be kind of conscious and then they'll pour like hot oil over the fish's body. The fish will kind of be half-scaled and then the fish will still be like moving their mouth. That is horrific. That is... It is horrific, but I mean, I don't see the symmetry break and like I don't see how that's different to dragging fish off the ship of a boat. It might be... Okay, yeah, it might be marginally more suffering involved, but suffocating to death under a group of your friends, slowly dying of like, I don't know, not being able to breathe seems pretty horrible too. I just don't see why that would be much more horrible. I mean... I mean, at the end of the day, it is literally just murder and mass suffering that we're causing. There is...  If you said to me, look, Joey, look, I don't really have a rights position. I mean, if it was humans, I wouldn't care if it was dogs. I wouldn't care if it was pigs. I wouldn't care if it was... I just don't care.  You actually called us equal and then you said all these things like, you know, so you do have this value.  And yes, morality is subjective like we said, but your subjective morality is completely contradictory. It's not even... I very much agree. It's very arbitrary. Yeah, I very much agree. There is no hard line because I've never defined a hard line in my set of principles, right? So where are you at now? Like, where are you at now with this? Because obviously fish share the value... share the property sentience. The egg and dairy cows, the egg-laying hens and dairy cows, they obviously share this value of sentience. They go to the slaughterhouse, get chopped up, same thing. Rights violated. So where are you now?  Yeah. So how are you still drawing the line? Are you gonna start moving the line over? I think so. I think in this time that I was vegetarian, I think I hadn't really thought once properly about what it is. And, you know, I sort of researched it initially and then I was, you know, I saw the suffering and all of that. But then as I went along, that was just the practice that I got used to. And that was just it. That was just a thing that is happening. But there wasn't much thought behind it. And so over the years, I haven't developed that hard line. And there wasn't a deeper understanding of what it is that I'm doing and why am I doing it. So that's why there was never a hard line. But now that we had this discussion, I think it's opened my eyes a little bit more to think deeper about these things. So what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna research a bit more about these practices, about what is happening in fishing industries and in industries to drive milk and eggs and all of that. And I think I'm gonna be moving line over. Because the practical argument, right, that's easily solved, how to go vegan, there's so many resources and like really right now, it's so, like really, but when I went vegan, there was less. I had to really look. I went vegan 10 years ago. Now for you right now, it's like they're handing it to you on a plate. It's very, very simple. It's a small habit change and like once you know how to replace the eggs and the milk is just, there's so many different plant milks now. You're right. You know, oat milk and soy milk and things like this. So really, I mean, you're just in a really good position here in the UK. You can make it cheap as well, cheap as you want to eat basically or as expensive as you want to eat, same with any other diet. No, you're so, so right. Yeah, I haven't thought about it like that deeply and I'm very glad I've had this chat with you actually. Yeah, I do think I want to move that, make that move.  That's what I felt from you. Like you have values. You're straight away. Boom. We're equal with this. You know, you speak like that. You have empathy. You care. Not everyone speaks like that. Most people I speak to actually don't speak like that straight off the bat. So you already care. I'm just showing where like, you know, you could just extend that line over and have this principle that kind of encompasses it. Like it's more consistent, encompasses everything. All the sentient animals, you know what I mean? And humans as well. You just draw the line across. You could just go all the way across your moral system and it's like really consistent and you're good. No, you don't have a justification. Yeah. Now there are times when humans and animals die in civilization and it's like these are incidents or things like this or as a result of plant farming or things like this where these aren't clear but rights violations. They're not grabbing them, enslaving them, breeding them into existence, chucking them into slaughterhouses, cutting their heads off just for their eggs in their dairy and things like this.  I mean slowly, if more people are getting to choose this, these practices, the better practices of veganism, the demand is going to go away and these practices will be almost non-existent. But looking into the future as well, even people who do wish to eat meat, I feel like that will change, those practices will change as well because of the lab grown meat. So looking into the future, I think even for the people who do not want to make those changes still in the future, we will see that the shift to more moral ways of... The people that don't want to, I'd still say that if they care about, you know, if they have any care whatsoever, they should boycott industries that do this, because there's no other, we're not doing this to, this kind of thing, breeding human beings into existence to cut their heads off of, but we're not doing that. We're not doing that. That's an egregious moral crime if we were to do this to human beings. We have a clear double standard here as a world. I don't think the world will ever be nonviolent if while we continue to do this to animals, I think there will always be violence. I think this violence emanates out. The way we look at animals as inferior, as we bring them down to this level where we're like, your property to me and we can chop you up and eat you, even if it's not morally justified. I don't care while I draw an arbitrary line. This moral schizophrenia we have as a society emanates out to us as people and how we treat each other and I just think it's a cancer on us as a human race. So the way that you live, the principles that you have, they emanate out to others and you can be part of that change or you can be someone who's just like, apathy and I don't care, I'm gonna do this is my line and I don't really care or you can really be part of something and I think that you can be part of something. But do you think enough people are going to care to change the industries? No, and not everyone wanted slavery abolished or I'm sure the Nazis didn't want the Holocaust to end and I'm sure there's always gonna be pushback but obviously like we hope to get enough people on the side that animals deserve rights and don't deserve this to happen to them for our trivial interests enough to be able to change culture and change laws and once the laws are in place then animals have I wanna see animals with personhood. Do you think that will ever be able that will be the case? I think it's possible. I think it's much more possible, I think it's much more probable that animals will have rights way before people stop killing them because people still kill each other and we have human rights so people will still breach that but there's at least some legal framework protecting human beings and I want some legal framework actually protecting animals and not just protecting some type of welfare guideline giving them some welfare guideline while we chop their head off I wanna see them being not treated as property and having... Would you agree that majority of people would have to be on this side of things for the shift towards the animal rights to happen? Not the majority, no. A significant amount of the population, yes. So why do you think we're at right now in terms of that? We're in the early stages of changing the minds of consciousness, I think there's a lot of work to do. With the amount of people you've spoken to, right? What is the percentage of people that actually agree with this set of values that you... I couldn't tell you. The ones who don't agree end up contradicting themselves quite... The ones who defend the animal agriculture industry kind of end up looking like heartless in a way they look like they're defending the indefensible and they really can't argue their way around it without contradicting themselves and so I put that out there for people to make their own mind up about and I think most people... the people who care about animals actually agree but they just can't put it into practice for some reason. Maybe they don't have the willpower or something like this when it really is not... the practical point is really easy to address. I mean, it's not that hard. Yeah, no, certainly. It's just for me like the word is we both agree that this is immoral and these practices... we can't continue doing this, right? Animals should have rights and there's killings and suffering that should just be stopped but my worry is that there will not be enough people to make that shift. Well, if you haven't yet, I can see why you worry. Because the first step to change is to change yourself and then you can be lead by example and change others, right? But if you haven't lived consistent yet yourself then how would you expect others to make that change, you know? But I think when you realise that... So me, I've been a vegan 10 years and I really do believe that animals can have rights because it's stupid for them not to. They share the property of sentience with us. They have inherent value. Human rights are based off of inherent value. They share that property with us. Why don't they have rights? And it's because there's industry behind it. People want to eat meat.  There's a lot of financial interest behind it as well and people don't want to give up their burgers. Simple. It's too hard. They don't want to. I like my burgers. I like my cheese. I don't want to eat vegan burgers or whatever I like. Certainly. But then there's so many other implications as well in terms of the economical impact of this because that is a huge part of economy, right? Of course. So that massive shift in these practices would cause a very, very huge... So yeah, it has to be... It would be gradual because change doesn't happen like that. Yeah, it does. They don't like it too. Economy too bad because it's not a justification to do this to human beings, the economy. The economical argument was deployed during the times of slavery in America as well. They said, what are we going to do with our industry? It's not a reason to keep things, you know, to violate animal human rights, the economy argument. Yeah. Well, a lot to think for me about, really. And I'm very, very glad I had this conversation with you, I think. Appreciate it. What really stuck out to me is, yes, I think having that personal power of impact, I think is huge. And I think having had this conversation with you, I think now I will think more about these practices, about what is happening behind these industries and choose better choices, I think. I'll make better choices in my diet. You're right, it's just so easy. There's no reason not to.  I like these vegan alternatives. It really is just such not a difficult decision at all. You may be just a little compelled to. You didn't feel motivated to. You didn't see the reasons for it at all. Exactly, exactly. You go along with your life, not really thinking about these things, but it really is not that difficult. And it means the world. This isn't a trivial change. It is for you and your practices, but on the other end of it, you've really made a political statement here. I don't want to be a part of this. I don't want to be a part of this. And in the future, when I'm talking to my grandchildren, I'll say to them, I boycotted that madness back then. I was one of the people who stood up and said, I don't want to be a part of torturing and murdering and robbing the rights of these animals. You said to me at the start of this conversation, case closed, they are valuable beings. They are equal to us. I think we share equal property. Or maybe if they have sentience, it's a little less. Who cares?  I just don't think you can do that. You can trade equal as a human to the mind of a cow and cutting their head off and eating them for a steak is still completely morally unjustifiable. So you can be part of something big. Well, thanks so much for this conversation. It was really, really insightful and helpful in so many ways. Yeah, there's a lot to think about.  Also, good talking to you. Thank you very much. Good talking to you. And how to go vegan, just look it up on our line. I mean, I usually give out pamphlets, but we're not allowed to right now. Where's the website? Do you have online resources? I do on my channel, but you can just look at any YouTube video, How to Go Vegan, and it will give you all the practical tips you need. I do a thing called Challenge 22. I'm involved with a thing called Challenge 22, where you sign in on a Facebook group and they give you support. There's Veganuary. They're always there to give support. There's many different... I mean, you choose the one that you like the best, but it's really just... You just got to replace fish and eggs and dairy and things like that. I start thinking about other ways humans exploit animals, but I think you're almost there. So, no worries. Take care. I think a lot of people might find themselves in his position where they agree with it, but they don't feel compelled to kick those other products and a lot of people who are vegetarian think like this, too. They don't think it's a moral urgency to remove the eggs and dairy. But from the animal's perspective and from an animal rights perspective, those animals having their rights violated, just like the pig in the gas chamber is just... The suffering... Maybe the suffering is not equal in all cases, but the rights violations are very clear. It's the fact that the animals are treated as property and will be decapitated in the slaughterhouse because they're treated as property. And I do believe it's a moral obligation. If you care about rights of animals and if you care about the inherent value we share, then it's a moral obligation to boycott those industries as well. So, I think he got the picture. I think he saw that his moral system was contradicting itself and he just had an arbitrary line. I think he saw the inconsistency with just drawing an arbitrary line where he decides. I hope he goes home and makes a change.