Welcome back to The Breakfast on PLOS TV Africa. Our next conversation this morning is going to be with, once again, presidential aspirant and former deputy president of the Central Bank of Nigeria, Kingsley Mogalu, deputy governor, I beg your pardon, of the Central Bank of Nigeria, Kingsley Mogalu. Good morning. Thanks for joining us, sir. Good morning. Good morning. Good to see you. I'm going to start with, first of all, it's interesting times across Nigeria today. It's been a couple of years gone since the administration started. But I want to also start with your take on the state of Nigeria today. What do you think we are currently dealing with and where do you think we currently are as a nation? Well, we are in the state of ferment at this moment, but dealing with a number of issues. We are dealing with a very high-level insecurity brought about by terrorism. We are dealing with poverty. We are dealing with fractal national vision and unity. But most importantly, we are dealing with leadership failure, which is what has brought all this about. Okay. And all of this... So one question that I always ask is, when the current administration came into power, were they unprepared or overwhelmed? Which word would you describe it perfectly with? Unprepared or overwhelmed? I think they were unprepared. I think they were unprepared. As a result, they are overwhelmed. But most importantly, they were unprepared. Okay. So still talking about the state of Nigeria. We know that your presidential aspirants, former presidential candidate, what would you do differently from the present administration? Well, I would... First of all, if I am coming to the presidency or am aspiring to the presidency with a real vision for what Nigeria should look like as a nation, with a view that Nigeria needs to be governed as a modern 21st century country. I am coming to the presidency if they understand that Nigeria needs to be fundamentally, constitutionally structured. Otherwise, its problems will be very difficult to address effectively. So I have a clear vision, which I articulated in my assessment with the acronym SWAG. And that is security and work against poverty, accelerated educational health reform, and good governance. So there is a very clear vision in my mind. And I would be coming with a team of a dream team of very highly different countries to work with me around and reposition Nigeria for the 21st century, especially in its economy. And of course, I would build a real nation by handling governance, by providing inclusion, justice, and equity for every part of the country. Because that's one of the big problems we are facing today, that many parts of the country are disaffected and feel marginalized. And I would run a very inclusive government with very happy talented people. I think this will make a big difference.  Has this crossed your mind? And how do you think that we maybe can defeat that thinking? Yes, on this thinking, and we have a strategy to address that challenge.  So I think the fact that you didn't win the first time doesn't mean that you possibly cannot win the second time. I want to let you know that some very important shifts that have taken place in Nigeria between the last election and today. The security crisis the country is facing, and the crisis of poverty that Nigerians are facing today. You know, the woman in the market who cannot, you know, buy foodstuff for her family because it has doubled in price over the past one year. You know, the man who is afraid to get on the road from Abuja to Kaduna because he's worried about kidnappers. The student or the young man who has not had a job for the past five years since living in the university, all this has brought a shift in the mindsets of Nigerians today. I think that at no point in history, in our recent history, since 1999, have the PDP at the APC, which are the parties that have either been backed by the car bowels, at no point have they been as vulnerable as they are today. Nigerians are looking for something different and something new. The suffering is just too much, and I think the time is right for a possible disruption. We're also working to get the support of various parts of the country and various, you know, forces. But most importantly is the people themselves. We need to aid people to vote right when the time comes. Okay. May I ask if you'd still be running for president under the platform of the Young Progressives Party, the YPP? I have not made a decision on what platform I will be running. I resigned from the YPP a few months after the 2019 elections, and I have not been, I did not join any party because I wanted to take a break from partisan politics and pursue the matter of electoral reforms from a non-partisan standpoint, and that's one of the things that has engaged me over the past year and a half. So I will be making a decision along with, you know, all the members of our movement, because I'm only a face of a movement. I'm only a face of millions of people who are faceless, but are disaffected and disenchanted. So we will together make a decision as to what party platform we will pursue within the next few months, and we will be communicating that. Because what we want is not just for Kingsley Morgan who to run for president. We want very capable Nigerians who will run to be governors in their states. We want those who will run to be senators, members of the House of Representatives, members of state houses of assembly, local government councillors. That's what we are thinking about. So it's not just about me. This is going to be a package involving a lot of Nigerians who have something to offer our country. All right, Mr. Mogulou, would your choice of party be anywhere between the APC and the PDP? We cannot rule out anything. We are open. We will be consulting with ourselves if the APC and the PDP are prepared for fundamental reform and decide that they would like to offer their platform to someone like myself, which would be a big thing for each of those parties to do. Why should we take it off the table? We are also looking at other parties as well as possibilities. So, you know, all options are open to be very frank to you. All right, so we know that the APC and the PDP are basically the ruling parties of the country. They have basically shared political power. What do you think would need to be done to create its thought force? I think what is necessary is funding is very important. Let me tell you why funding is very important. Funding is important to conduct education programs for our people, for Nigerians, because the minds of Nigerians have been captured and enslaved by these two parties. Because what they offer Nigerians is politics without governance. They win elections, but they cannot govern. So, we need to educate Nigerians on how to select their leaders, what to look for, and what Nigerians need now. Vote for a person, not party. Don't vote for a party structure. Look for an individual that you think has the capacity and the vision to drive Nigeria forward as far as the presidency is concerned. And then vote for the party platform that person is on. So, if you can get people to think a little bit differently this time, you have a chance of breaking that hold of the two parties. And the soft that is going on right now creates a very distinct possibility. People are not happy with those two parties today. I can tell you that.  You know, you said that you would be an asset, even if you agree. The reason I say so is because any one of them giving me the platform would be a very fundamental reform because they know that I'm coming from a very different place and in a different way, with a different way of thinking and doing things. So, this is just the point I was trying to make. That would constitute a massive reform for any one of those two parties. But, you know, in politics, you cannot rule anything out. I'm just, you know, I've learned lessons from 2019. You have to be very practical. You have to be open-minded. As you pursue your goals and you have to be maintaining a focus on your vision. Okay. So, I want you to tell us a bit about what you offer as a presidential aspirant in Nigeria and in terms of security, open-grazing, you know, security of lives and property, protection of schools, our roads and, you know, just all of all the security concerns. Yes, I think that would be primary, of course. The first thing, you know, in my mind that needs to be done is that we need to go to our borders. There are more than a hundred, you know, perhaps hundreds of border crossings between Nigeria and various countries in West Africa. You've got to close all those borders. When I say close, I mean we have to control them. Because that's the first thing. If you do not control who comes into your country and goes out, all sorts of criminal elements may come in from outside, perpetrate these acts of terrorism. So, that's number one. Number two, we will reform the military establishment. We will look at what is lacking. It's not just about equipment, it's about leadership. I will provide the leadership that will renew the confidence of the military. I will have to tackle corruption in the military and the power of sorts in some places, divided loyalty. These are issues that have to be tackled before you can bring terrorism under control in Nigeria. And we are going to use technology a lot. We're going to professionalize the national security architecture. It's not going to be everybody who matters in the security architecture will have to come from the part of the country that I come from, which is what you have today. And that's one of the reasons Nigeria is insecure. Because one thing is that you create, you know, regime protection, but not the protection of Nigerians. I'm more focused on the protection of Nigerians. So, we will professionalize the security architecture. Okay. What's your stance on open grazing and payment of ransom to bandits and kidnappers? I don't believe in the payment of ransom to bandits and kidnappers. I think, you know, my attitude to those kinds of crimes would be to take out those criminal elements proactively.  That is what, as president, I will do. So, I'm not going to be waiting for them to kidnap people so that I'll come and pay ransom. We're going to go to them where they are and we're going to wipe out. Period. That's just a second. And the open grazing issue, it's one of the biggest issues in the country? Yes. Open grazing, it's very clear that open grazing is going out of favor. Nobody wants it anymore. Even the North and Governors, everybody recognizes that it is just not the thing to continue to do in this country. So, I believe in ranching modern 20th century methods of rearing cattle. It's more economically productive. It enables security because you cannot have open grazing when people are using that as a cover to perpetrate acts of terrorism. That's just not, that's just not something that we should allow. So, I would discourage it, certainly, as president. All right. I want us to move to the southeast, where you're from. The last few weeks and months, it's been chaos with regard to security and attacks on security outfits, attacks on INEC offices and the likes. The IPOB, the ESN, have seemingly become more violent than they used to be. So, I want your thoughts on what's been going on in the southeast and the approach that the current administration has taken with regards bringing calm and peace to that region? Yeah. I think what is happening in the southeast is very unfortunate and I condemn and I have condemned unequivocally acts of violence on all sides. I condemn attacks on Nigerian government institutions or Nigerian security forces. I condemn it without reservation. We don't want anarchy. I have condemned the killing of Ahmed Gulak. And I condemn also reported extrajudicial killings by security forces in the southeast. We've got reports that people are being, young men are being singled out and shot or treated impure mainly because of suspicions that they belong to IPOB. This is extrajudicial law enforcement and that is just not right also. So, the problem with the southeast is that it was aton some of them, not all. I would believe that majority of people in the region believe in remaining part of Nigeria, but there are those who don't. And so, some people aton between the emotional appeal of Biafra and the reality of the Nigerian states that they believe is not treating them fairly. So, what is the solution to this? I believe the solution is that people from the south need to engage far more actively, far more robustly in the Nigerian political process and find their place in it and fight for their place in it through the ballot box. That's what they should do. This notion is romantic, but it's not easy to secede.  It's going to be very difficult. Now, in terms of the referendum, it's not contained in the constitution, but if you go through the political process, you may be able to achieve what you want from the Nigerian political process. You can, we can fight for a change of the constitution and you can have that as one of the articles of a new constitution. So, there are many ways to engage. And I'm telling Igbo's that by putting themselves more and more out of the political process, when you're not at the table, you're on the menu. And so, the people from the region are not doing themselves any service by not engaging according to their numbers. The Igbo's are the third largest ethnic group in this country. But if you look at the electoral numbers, you would not know that. And some people are beginning to think of Igbo's as a minority, which is such a laughable concept when it's one of the biggest countries, at least one of the biggest ethnic groups, at least 40 billion people. So, I think people in the South East need to understand where their interests actually lie. And I think they lie in fighting for justice and equity within the Nigerian state. And that's my position. And that can be only through constitutional restructuring. That's why I believe that a new constitution as a basis for a structured Nigeria is the political fight of the decade. And you know, I also mentioned, you know, the reaction of the current administration to the Igbo's. If you, of course, I saw that you had spoken, but I would like you to once again speak on that. The statements by the president with regards dealing with persons in the language that they understand. And also, even prior to, you know, those statements, you know, there has been this feel like the current administration doesn't have a lot of tolerance for people from the Southeast, hasn't brought them into governance, hasn't, you know, welcomed South Easterners. Do you agree with that? And do you think that the government maybe has failed in that regard? Yeah, I think it's obvious. I think it's obvious that the current administration is a very sectional administration. I think it's also quite obvious that they are not particularly fond of the Southeast. Perhaps because the Southeast did not vote for them in large numbers in 2015 and 2019. But you know, when you're president, a president of the whole country, you're not the president only of those who voted for you. That's not leadership. And that's the kind of difference I would bring to leading this country, because whether you vote for me or not, if I'm president of Nigeria, your welfare is my number one priority. I don't care about your ethnic group. I don't care about your religion.  That's the way I will proceed. That's what's lacking here. The government has tended to be very heavy-handed. Once there are threats or issues in the Southeast, but they're not as heavy-handed with the real terrorism that is going on in the Northeast or the northern parts of the country. So there is clearly a double standard in the security post-job of this government. And I don't think that's correct. That's not good at all. And you know, I also think I'd shared this yesterday of semi-militarization of the Southeast. There's videos that you can see online where people have to lift their hands up when they walk past checkpoints and stuff like that, which doesn't in any way look good. So share your thoughts on that one. Of course, I have criticized the excessive militarization of the Southeast because you are dealing with a political problem in the wrong manner. You don't want to deal with it politically. You want to deal with it with force.  But I think that's just not the right approach. These are political issues. And I think the government should engage politically with these dissidents or people who are disaffected. And you know, look, stop this. We can unite. I would look as president of Nigeria, I will unite Nigeria. And people are going to be surprised at how well the country will function just because of the different posture that I would bring to leadership.  If people, they're due and things will flow along fairly well. So that's yes. I don't agree with the excessive militarization of the Southeast, but of course, I understand that the government has to play its role in maintaining order within the territory of the Nigerian state. The problem is that you have failed to do that in the Northeast and increasing in the Northwest, but you're only trying to do that in the Southeast. And you're even going about it the wrong way. You know, so that's the problem. So therefore, there is a crisis of legitimacy that the Nigerian government and the Nigerian state is facing today. But I think that as difficult as these problems are, I think we can overcome them. And that is why I made myself available as a potential president of the country come 2023 so that we can give people hope in the season of hopelessness, make them see the solution to the problem lies in leadership selection because fundamentally, what we're going through is a leadership problem. All right. We know that one of the root causes of insecurity is poverty. So looking at the economy holistically, what's your plan for it regarding taking Nigerians out of poverty and the poverty capital of the world regarding fuel, what's your stance on fuel subsidies, petrol refining, and just all of these economic issues that are important in our country today. Yeah. See, I mean, obviously, you know that I have a background in economic management as a former deputy governor of the central bank, as a professor of international business and public policy. So my approach to the economy will be one that begins with a fundamental philosophical foundation, which is what is lacking. That is this, that the state should provide an enabling environment for the private sector and for private sector entrepreneurs. But the state cannot replace the market based, which is what you see this government trying to do. And it is creating so much poverty. Now, all these subsidies distort the economy. They may be and the reason people of course do not want an increase in the price of well, the government is giving them nothing else. The government is not giving them, you know, good education. The government is not giving them good health care. But I would say remove those subsidies and invest more in health care and in education, giving young people skills. That's how I'll take millions of people out of poverty. If you improve the additional system, you give people skills that are very practical to create jobs for themselves. And then you provide finance to young people coming out of the university to be able to set up on enterprises is the approach I would take to eradicating poverty in Nigeria. Of course, we're going to run an innovation economy. Yes, innovation is important to creating the wealth of nations. And that's what we will do in Nigeria. Nigeria give us the opportunity.  But we know that talk is cheap. Just a minute, please. We know that talk is cheap. And we know that when politicians make promises, not all of them follow through. So how do you intend to convince Nigeria and say your political promises are going to be the same thing with the realities if you are elected president? Yes, you know, my track record is one of the things you should also look at. You know, anybody can say anything, but I have a track record of reform, you know, whether it's in the United Nations or in the Central Bank, I have achieved things that are very concrete, helping rebuild filled nations like Angola, like Somalia, Rwanda, former Yugoslavia, whether, you know, in the Central Bank, reforming the banking system, making sure that no bank failed and no Nigerian depositor lost any money in the banks. I led that process. I led the team that developed and introduced the bank verification number, the BBN, which has smoothened the lot banking transactions and helps to create an enabling environment for financial technology firms, FinTech. You know, so I have a track record. That's one. Two, actually, what other politicians are saying is not what I'm saying. Some of them are copying me. They copy what I'm saying, but they don't have the ideas that I have. That's the truth. So it's not actually accurate that they're saying what I'm saying. They're just saying, oh, we'll build road here. We'll build a hospital there.  There is no vision. I am coming with a vision. That's the distinguishing factor between me and the other politicians. The third thing I'll tell you is that we will make sure that these promises do not go to waste. How? As president of Nigeria, there are going to be four important offices in my office of the president, which will drive the governance reforms that we need in this country. One, we're going to have an office of national strategy. Two, we're going to have a national office of risk management. Three, we're going to have a performance management office. Four, we're going to have a talent management and leadership development office in the presidency. These four offices will be very critical to my administration because they will be the wheels. They will give wheels to the vision. You know, you have to have a strategy, professionally, properly developed strategy with timelines for execution and strategy evaluation. We will manage the risks that many governments fail to deliver their promises. We will manage those risks consciously. We will evaluate performance. Every minister that I appoint, will be on probation for six months. And if you do not perform, you know, because there will be evaluations every three months or every six months.  So by the time I have fired a couple of ministers, I think people will understand that we're very serious. We're not going to have to play. And then we're going to have to find talent. That's the job of the office of talent management and develop leaders. Then there's huge talents, numbers of talents in Nigeria and in the diaspora. We will consciously look for them and position them to help us govern Nigeria. All right. In 30 seconds, please respond to this.  What have you done, you know, since 2019? Statements like that. How do you respond to them? 30 seconds, please. Yes, bear wrong. I think Nigerians need to take their destiny in their hands and stop being slaves to their captors, the traditional politicians. That's what I would say. Many people suffer from a Stockholm syndrome. They're fallen in love with their oppressors and they've begun to see, you know, there's a Turkish proverb that the tree kept voting for the axe because the axe, part of the axe was made of wood. The tree thought that the axe was part of them. So this is what is happening in Nigeria. We must change our mindset entirely. We need governments, not just politics. Politics without governance does us no good and we should stop being a country that, after 60 years of independence, has only 5,000 megawatts of electricity. That's a shame. Thank you very much, Mr. Kingsley Margalew, former presidential candidate and current presidential aspirant for the 2023 elections. We appreciate your time and your thoughts on these national issues. Have a great day. Thank you, you too. Thank you for having me. All right. That's where we, of course, wrap up the discussion for today. This Thursday morning, thank you for staying with us all through. We, of course, wish you a very beautiful and swell day ahead. If you missed out on any of these conversations, check us out on our social media platforms at Plus TV Africa on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. I am Osaogi Oboa. And I am Annette Felix. Bye-bye.