This is September 4th September 4th. We're in the OBJ library and the subject today is Sherwood Martin Hello, Harry. Okay. That's up to you Tell us start out Sherwood by telling how you got involved in the Johnson White House to begin with and What's your duties were and then go on? Okay? Well, how I got involved In the White House I guess depends on who Answers that question There are about three or four strings to that bow, and I've never quite sure which one is the accurate one. I had been When I graduated from Yale Law School I had listened to the to the Dean there who said that the purpose of that great law school was not to just fund the The great law firms of Washington in New York City, but go home young men So I went back to where I had been born and raised which is Iowa Okay, all right Well, Harry you asked me how I got to To Washington and how I got to the White House and that depends on who is answering that question I've heard three or four different versions. I've never been quite sure Which one is true? But My own background is that when I graduated from the Yale Law School, I listened to the Dean there who advised The members of our very small class to that they didn't intend to just fund the law Large law firms of New York and Washington, but go home young men so I went back to where I've been born and raised which was Iowa and began the practice of law there and and Became quite active in Democratic politics had become state president of the young Democrats of Iowa and generally had I'd attended as a delegate the conventions of 1956 and 1960 and In 1960 and this is relevant to answering your question I served an Adelaide Stevenson staff and was very much deeply involved in the last gasp effort on behalf of the Stevenson people who were working in alliance with the Lyndon Johnson people to keep John Kennedy from being nominated on the first ballot under the theory Which I think was accurate that if he didn't win on the first ballot. He wouldn't be nominated and And so we were working very hard together and I was very deeply involved in that and The contacts I made from the Stevenson staff Resulted in Tom Finney who was Clark Clifford's law partner who was general counsel in 1964 to the Credentials committee which was considering the problem the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party Well, that's a string that I'll come back to At the same time back in Iowa had become I guess you would call it a protege a young man Who was being looked after very closely by our then governor Harold Hughes who was later senator from Iowa and Governor Hughes Was very much a father figure to me and I helped him in every possible way including I was his campaign manager back in 1964 and and that those days governor Hughes and Lyndon Johnson were close friends and the 1964 Democratic National Convention was coming up and As I understood it from Governor Hughes the president wanted the convention to go perfectly smoothly Because the president was greatly concerned if there was any great incident at the convention that disrupted it it would give an opening to Robert Kennedy Who the president believed was looking for an opening to displace President Johnson and Assumed the legitimacy of the mantle of the presidential Candidate see whether true or not. I don't know but in any event that was my understanding is conveyed to me by governor Hughes Well coming up from Mississippi at the time was a great problem the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party was black and wanted to be seated at the convention and the president wanted that fight that Desire Somehow solved by a compromise that would be acceptable to Joe Rao who represented the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party and Walter Ruther and the northern liberal wing of the Democratic Party and the southern Establishment of the Democratic Party. He didn't know the president didn't know according to Hughes how or what? Compromise could be reached but he wanted it done So as I understood it from Hughes The president wanted from Hughes the name of somebody that could go to the convention and help work out that compromise somebody who was I guess he was looking for a lawyer and Hughes had suggested my name and That was acceptable and I was instructed to go to the convention and work through Walter Jenkins to try to work out that compromise and the president had also posed the same question to To to Senator Humphrey is sort of the price for his being selected as vice president and Humphrey had suggested that then Attorney General of Minnesota Walter Mondale So Fritz and I went to the convention as two of the five people on the Subcommittee of the Credentials Committee charged with the idea of working out a compromise and Fritz representing Humphrey and I understood I was representing the president since I was dealing with Jenkins and any event without going into all of the details We did work out a compromise which surprised and pleased the president and the convention went smoothly and both Fritz Mondale and I got our rewards Fritz was greater than mine because he took Humphrey's place in the United States Senate Mine was to get a call from water from Marvin Watson to come to Washington and see the president and at which time I was Asked to come to Washington and help out the administration and I didn't want to come. I was very happy in Iowa pleased with my life there, but As anyone who knows Lyndon Johnson Contestify when he sits there and says your president needs you It's virtually impossible to say no, so I didn't say no and I came That's my version of the story Marvin Watson. However, that's a third version of the story and that is that Cliff Carter Who actually was the president's man on the Democratic National Committee and was an old old friend of the presidents Had seen me try a lawsuit in front of the state Senate of Iowa where I'd actually caused the Republican majority to turn tail and run and Carter This is Marvin's story was sufficiently impressed that he told Marvin in the president that you got to get this guy and That's how I got there. So that's One of those stories is true or maybe all of them as far as I know any event I came and in in the spring of 1965 and The rest your question I forget was what what did I do then? Well, I didn't know anything about Washington DC that's for sure or the federal government and I think one of the first Experiences I had which was both was kind of frightening to me was My friend Nick Cots who all of them only won a Pulitzer Prize Called me and said This is the summer in 1965 and said Do you know that senator Kennedy he was then senator from New York is about to give a speech Really laying it into the president on Vietnam and that is a real 180-degree Change in Kennedy's position and I thought and he's going to give that speech tomorrow morning And I thought you'd like to have a heads up on it because he's already released the advanced text of the speech So I thank Nick and Saw Marvin and told him that story and Marvin saw the president and the Came back to me and said the president wants you to go up to the Capitol Hill and Convince Kennedy not to give that speech And I said what about Marvin? I said I said he's already released an exact advanced text of it and If I go up and do that Won't that put our put us in here's hands He can say whatever he wants and then also add the White House pressured him into trying not to give that speech So I was told that that they had complete confidence that I could avoid that problems successfully and any man I trotted up to Capitol Hill and It was around six or seven o'clock in the evening and When the Kennedy's office and he saw me and I told him that we Got word of this speech and wondered if there's any way that We could I could convince him to moderate it and the hook I used actually was it his friend David Bell who was Then director of the agency for international development was going to be on the platform with him And it would be embarrassing to bail Not to speak of the reaction of the president and any of that surprisingly enough Kennedy was receptive. He called in his two speechwriters Peter Edelman and Adam Walensky and There began a negotiation that took a good power to the night Going through that speech line by line word by word In the middle of that negotiation Kennedy excused himself went back to his home in Virginia To some party and then came back and anyway at the end of the night. He had actually changed the speech to to take away this stuff that was so objectionable and I had only one final question of him and that was senator Since the advanced text is so different from the one we've just agreed on Exactly and somebody is bound to ask you about it exactly What are you going to say as to the reason why you're giving a changed speech and? He has answered to me was I'm going to lie mr. Markman. I'm going to say that the only speech that counts is the one I give and The next day I managed to be there when he gave the speech He gave it exactly as we'd agreed to and then afterwards I happened to be close enough to hear the press ask him that question and he gave exactly the answer. He told me he would give Which was my introduction into the affairs of state at the White House after that I continued on in my little office up on the second floor of the West Wing and President sometimes called me as utility infielder because He finally came to the conclusion that I could More or less handle things whether I was competent to or trained to or not and I'd be given Whatever job happened to be at hand looking at you Harry. I Remember my one and only and thankfully last Experiences a speechwriter for some reason that he got the idea that I could write and and we were flying somewhere or another on Air Force one and Whatever you guys had prepared for him for that speech. He decided on the airplane. He didn't like and So he Comes up. He says Markman. I hear you can write. He says here. I want you to change this speech I want this that and the other thing in it and you get go ahead and rewrite it right now and Just have it ready to me. We have it ready for me when we land so I take the speech and get on one of our the typewriter's on the airplane and You've probably had this experience But here I am trying to rewrite it and Lyndon Johnson is standing over my shoulder Watching me word for word as I try to prepare it Making comments and suggestions all the way Well needless to say when we landed it was a dedication of a dam or something Ah The speech wasn't ready. So he went off to the dedication. I'm still in the airplane typing array So he left a police escort for me in the speech and fortunately I arrived at the place of the speech with the With the draft in tow just in time to hand it to him before he gave it and He hadn't had a chance to read it except when he gave it and Believe me after that. I appreciated what guys like you were doing and never wanted any part of it again But I did Many many things I think the thing that That I'm proudest of that maybe I had Where I really feel that I had some impact on things was One Christmas time when he asked me into the office and said I Decided I want to have somebody like you go into the black ghettos of the United States and find out What's happening?  I want to know what? programs are working and what programs aren't working and I want to know who the good people are who aren't and so I decided that Somebody like you ought to do that And I said well, mr. President, you know, how am I supposed to do this? I mean I'm white I'm from Iowa. I don't know anything about Intercity problems and that's exactly why I Ask you to do this because I want to have a completely Unsullied view of what happened and I said well, how am I supposed to do these things? Well, you're a bright boy I think you can figure that out. So I Went back and once again, I called on my dear friend Nick Katz it was in with the Washington Post I think and Confide with him off the record because the president but also added he didn't want me to get in trouble or get my name in the newspapers or anything like that and I Decided the only way I could do this is to find somebody who was black Who could keep his mouth shut and who could keep me out of trouble and show me around so? We found Nick had this friend of his who had been born raised in the Chicago ghetto, which was the place we decided to go to and Named Ken Valles. So Kenny Introduced me to Kenny and I like Kenny and so Kenny and I went into First the south side of Chicago and then the west side of Chicago was the middle of winter. It was cold We lived in rooming houses We walked the streets at night we Stayed there for ten days to two weeks and I came back full of so many reactions and feelings and thoughts I couldn't contain myself and So I wrote my report to the president, which I knew he wanted one page reports But I couldn't stop and it ended up I forget what the length of it But it's something like 10 or 15 single space pages law, but I set it in Figuring he's just going to just rip it rip me up for it. And as it turned out he liked it and It also turned out that I found out At least one of the reasons he wanted the reports because I was several times I would be sitting in a meeting with the president and members of Congress and talking about one or another of his Poverty program bills and in the middle of all that he'd reach into his pocket and he'd pull out my memo and He'd say I have this young man. He's no different than any of you men. He's he's no screaming liberal He's from Iowa and let me just read you a part of what he found and then he'd read it and just use it as a tool of persuasion Which of course made me very proud and happy and that trip to the ghetto led as it often did with Lyndon Johnson to Many other trips of the ghettos by me Six or seven or eight, I don't remember how many each followed by a report and He liked it and I thought I was doing something of use I guess the other part of it that I thought was extremely useful was when I went into the Philadelphia ghetto Again it was a terribly cold and sleazy night Sunday and The man who was escorting me the black man who was escorting me Introduced me to took me to church to see this Reverend Leon Sullivan who nobody had heard of at the time and He was the church. I thought would be half empty because of the awful weather was just jammed Sullivan was extraordinarily effective a very charismatic man and That wasn't the reason why I was being introduced to him It was because Sullivan had this job training program called OIC as I remember and the next day I spent the whole day with Reverend Sullivan. He showed me his job training program Which was very very impressive and I came back to the White House and and actually strongly urged the president if he could all if he could have at all do it to go to Philadelphia into that ghetto and meet Sullivan and and and See what his programs What his program is because I thought that was the way we ought to be going and The president bought that idea and the Secret Service did not want him to go into the ghetto I remember that he had to overrule the Secret Service and anyway He went in Matt Sullivan was impressed with Sullivan then we got back to Washington He asked Sullivan to to To come to the White House and he spent considerable time with Sullivan at the end of what she called me in and Cliff Alexander and He told the two of us to go Go see Sergeant Shriver right now and tell Shriver to get this man some more money And it was sometimes I remember it was like a Saturday late Saturday afternoon a Shriver So we went out to the Shriver's house and Shriver's having this big lawn party We called him out of the party and gave him the direction to get Sullivan money. Well as you as the world now knows Sullivan became a very very famous fellow and Developed the Sullivan principles which were very very important and in our relationship with South Africa went on the board of Chrysler corporation and I was very very proud of that piece of work for the president You mentioned before you wanted me to talk about two other Incidents one was what? Glassboro Yeah, there was a The summit conference at Glassboro, New Jersey in June 1967 there was a that was just a couple weeks after the six-day war between Israel and the Arab nations and a premier Kosigan of the Soviet Union was coming to speak to the United Nations and President Johnson wanted to take that opportunity to invite Kosigan down to Washington because you very much wanted the Russians to Intervene with North Vietnam to bring him to the peace table and So we extended the invitation to Kosigan because Seagans response was That he's not visiting the United States. He's been visiting the United Nations And so it would not be proper for him Not be appropriate for him to come to Washington rather Johnson should come to the UN Well Johnson wasn't buying that either And so it remained deadlocked like that for The better part of a day when somebody came up at the State Department came up with an idea of Laying a string between the White House and the United Nations Headquarter and marking the point that's precisely halfway between it and that happened to be Glassboro New Jersey, which is a home of glass what was then known as Glassboro State Teachers College and That proposal was accepted by the Russians and this was at five o'clock in the afternoon and and they agreed to meet at Right at two o'clock. I think the next afternoon and I was then told to assemble a team get on an airplane and go Find a place for them to meet make the place ready and have it all set by two o'clock Yeah, and the next afternoon so I had a plane load of Secret Service State Department's communications press you name it dick moose, I remember from the National Security Council and We went up there and Knocked on the door of the president of Glassboro State Teachers College Dr. Robinson and By this time he knew we were coming because it leaked out of the press But we didn't we told him I had a bunch of direction for the president He wanted to have a large meeting room a place for lunch place where they could meet privately and We had to find a we had to find the locale so with the Dr. Robinson we walked all over that campus and He kept suggesting the student union the auditorium this or that Classroom and none of it. I knew right away the only place that we could do it was the Robinson's house and Finally I did make that suggestion the Robinson's Reluctantly accepted it and we spent the whole night Refurbishing that house there wasn't there was a hot june day the house wasn't even air-conditioned it didn't have the power To be air-conditioned So we had to have the power company put in transformers. We had to buy air-conditioning units We had to get new furniture. We had to get draperies. We had to get kitchen equipment You can't believe what we went through but we got it ready and at at Just before Kosigin arrived the president arrived in his helicopter and Got off of it and said to be okay now What am I supposed to do now and I started rattling it off and he said to me I don't like it and I said Stammered really but but mr. President Kosigin's gonna be here in five minutes and at that point I I Always thought it was mrs. Johnson, but it might have been Marvin somebody stepped between us and said We have to do it Markman's way And he shrugged and we did and it went off fine and the summit conference lasted for that day and then reconvene two days later and We have down in the first floor of this library the Table and two chairs that they sat in and Which is in a story in itself, which I would briefly relate is the president wanted those for the library and Directed me to go talk to mrs. Robinson to buy them And mrs. Robinson said to me well mr. Markman You can have the chair and one of the you can have the table in one of the chairs But the other chair is a family heirloom and I don't want to give that away and I don't want to sell it and I said, but well, I'll make sure that somebody duplicates it Precisely and she said well mr. Markman in that case you take the duplicate and put it the library And I said that isn't go to work mrs. Robinson. We want the real thing and any event she wouldn't give way so I finally in desperation called the governor of New Jersey Who's asked him if he would help help help and he did and she agreed and now you have the table in the Two chairs and I think the other story you wanted me to Incident you wanted to mention is Williamsburg Which happened later that same year. I think it was in October of 1967 The president was under great great pressure at that time and It's the and wanted to get away for a weekend and a relaxation where he could play golf with Chuck Robb who was about to be married to Linda. I think was married the first Week in December and generally wanted to relax and He wanted to do all that. Oh, they were going to have the gridiron dinner I think on Saturday night in Williamsburg and he was going to stay there and then he wanted to go to church on Sunday and so he sent me down there to Find him a place to stay which was easy to do the Rockefeller family actually owned that Williamsburg Or controlled it and I called governor went to Rockefeller of Arkansas and and I asked him Arrange for a place for the president to stay and the golfing and all of that and then mentioned church And he said well, there's only one church that he should go to there's one at colonial Williams were called Bruton Parish It's an Episcopal church and That's where he should attend and Being a foresightful young man, I said but what about the minister? Is he going to be okay? And the governor said no problem about him He's a great supporter of the president. No problem at all about him Nonetheless I still being Innately somewhat suspicious. I decided that maybe I ought to go chat with the minister myself and I didn't want to do it myself Still mindful what at what risk I'd run with senator Kennedy. I decided I would should have a witness there and Talked to one of the Secret Service agents. I think it was Clint Hill and That there would be a they agree there might be a general The security justification for this Secret Service to accompany me to talk to the minister Because the president be trapped in his church and all of that so the two of us went to talk to the minister and I told him that the president is considering coming to your church on Sunday and and We're just curious of what your sermon is going to be and He said no problem with that. I have never copy of it right here. You can look at it You can see it's something that the president would very much enjoy hearing and so we sat there and read it it was innocuous a Good piscopal sermon if I ever read one in my life and and We thanked him and went back and I report back to the president that all is in order and all is safe Well, the president came down and the And then the point of time he went into the church with mrs. Johnson and I stayed outside and About two minutes before the Church Service was over the doors burst open all the press that was part of the press pool Came running out yelling. You never believe what just happened in there and I knew instantly what had just happened in there and I Went walked to the very end of this long motorcade To try to hide myself and the president walked out of the church.  Oh, by the way the When the right after president walked out the minister walked out and he had prepared copies of the sermon He had actually given the one which had oh by the way He had spent the sermon just berating the president on Vietnam. That's what had happened in there And he had copies of it that he was handing out to the press That's what a false Man he had been in any event the president wouldn't hear of any of my explanations nor would he stop Stop berating me for it. He went off to play golf. He directed me to stay there Till he got back when he got back. He continued on Then I had intended to drive back to Washington with a secret service He wouldn't let me do that. He made me fly back with him on the helicopter where he continued Above the noise of the helicopter when we got to the White House. I thought I could go home. He wouldn't permit that Brought me up to the second floor of the mansion and continued it I Tried to quit resign. He wouldn't hear of that and The next morning I Told Marvin bag my what am I to do? He won't let me quit and he won't stop He says why don't you write a memo we'll put it in his night reading So I wrote a memo we put it in his night reading the president obviously read it because he initialed it but And he never said another word And this is typical of Lyndon Johnson and he never apologized to me Of course as far as I know Lyndon Johnson didn't apologize But it wasn't maybe a week or ten days later I was invited to a White House a Party for a foreign head of state and as you remember you go through the receiving line When they got to me He put his arm around me the president did to the whoever the head of state was and said I just want you to meet one of the most Brightest most competent most trustworthy Assistants any president could ever add at that moment. I could I knew I'd been forgiven which reminds me of the story I know that Wilkins tells the story about the same kind of thing where he asked Wilkins after he used the n-word in Wilkins Presence you've heard that story. I'm sure that he asked Wilkins back in the Oval Office. He didn't apologize to him but he Talked about everything under the Sun, but enough so that Wilkins knew that the president was sorry Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it What was your overall impression of President Johnson I Thought he was an extraordinary man a prodigious memory the likes of which I have never ever seen His ability to communicate was extraordinary. He had a sense of How to persuade people as anyone who dealt with him knows he had no compunction against invading your personal space a famous picture of him which is in your book Leaning over justice for this is a great example.  He could communicate brilliantly In person and not only just person to person Or in a small group, but even in larger groups. There was just something about the electronic media that interfered with his ability to communicate and which As all of us know Endless efforts were made to try to solve that problem all of which Failed he could not communicate through television. He just couldn't do it and yet In person the man was fearless He preferred communicating that way but time being a very precious commodity to him he So often used the telephone people say he loved the telephone and he did he was very good on the telephone and he did use it Immensely but he much much preferred Communicating in person to a person the advantage the telephone gave him was that he could cut somebody off. I Mean when it was over it was over Whereas if you're face-to-face with somebody it could sometimes drag on but I thought the man was a great man his Beliefs in his programs were totally kids His belief in his civil rights Program goes back to his very roots all of his speeches Prove that It's been said and I think accurately so that in the field of civil rights he accomplished more than any president of the United States since Abraham Lincoln and I think his belief in the poverty program and his dream for Have every American be able to have housing and Education at a job was that came from his very soul He believed that as he once said in one of his I think it was his next to last speech Did he gave in his lifetime not the famous one here at the library? that If his time on earth is to be judged He would like it to be judged by the programs he saw and acted your own personal


e October and November data. I mean, one of the things that we are working on and hopefully we will continue to work on is, which I believe from my perspective is true is for us, these use of force reports are not sufficient. We would like to continue to convince BPD and the BPOA to release the body worn camera footage to us along with the use of force reports. So Commissioner Hanson, that's what we are hoping to achieve in the next few months is that we negotiate that and we have access to that. Otherwise for me, these use of force reports are really, I'm reading them. They make perfect sense. They're well written, they're well presented but I really, from my personal point of view, need more information. So that's something I just wanted to tell you about that because that's what we are hoping to get. We used to have those, but we lost access to that information and we would like to have that information back. But anyone else has any thoughts? So Chief, I thought your hand went up. It did, and I raised it electronically as well. Just as a point of information. So for, and welcome, Commissioner Hanson, thank you for joining. What I'd like to sort of clarify is that any incident that involves a citizen complaint would involve a review and this body would be able to see anything it wants that is not otherwise protected by law, like a juvenile or something that has a matter of that. When there was a period in which only a handful of uses of force were being requested, there wasn't an objection to that. It was when the body began to ask for all of them just as a blanket and say, we wanna see all of them, that there was an objection raised by the union that it constituted an audit, a random audit because it wasn't anything about the uses of force that was driving the request for the video. It was just all and any and they had an objection to that. We were working through that and I'm hopeful that we can come back to a place where everybody's able to see what they need to see in order to understand and have confidence that our written reporting is accurate and fair too. That behooves all of us ultimately because I certainly don't want, I want a representative body of neighbors to be able to say, yeah, we do not see discrepancies between these written reports and the things that we're allowed to see even if everybody else can't see them. Some incidents do get reported, do get released online via Nvidia but only those that have certain parameters, certain things, so it's not random. It's specific incidents that involve either the use of a tool like a firearm being pointed or pepper spray being deployed or that involve a serious injury to the person or that are for whatever reason believed to be to have significant public concern. And so those get released online for anybody to view and in any of those instances if the commission were to want to see other things other than what's online, I don't think that we would have an issue with that but it was sort of the request for all body camera that caused this new ripple that is being worked out with the BPOA and the city attorney and the commission. Thank you, Chief, Commissioner Cox. Yeah, I was wondering, we don't currently do this and I don't know that there's a mechanism for doing this but I've been pretty concerned every time that an officer gets injured during the course of interacting with a suspect or in an incident. And so I'm always like rushing to send emails off to Sarah, Tims and say like, are they okay? And like what happened? I don't ask really what happened but I ask like, are they okay? But I was wondering if you would have any motivation towards reporting on, it's not use of force incidents but it's incidents where use of force, someone else use some force or against an officer. Do you see what I'm saying? What the difference is? I don't know if you had ever thought about that or? Yeah, I mean, I think certainly anytime an officer has significant injury, I tend to make that a press release of that. I'm grateful that that doesn't happen very often but I mean, I receive anytime an officer is injured I receive something called a first report. Well, if the officer does one and every officer is supposed to. So if an officer is injured, even in a very minor way they are supposed to do a first report of injury that goes to our insurer so that we can begin the process should a claim ultimately become necessary. The vast, vast majority of the time that is not the case but I see those and I respond to every single one to the officer double checking with whether or not they're okay. If you would like some sort of report from me about incidents in which officers were injured that didn't necessarily use involve force on the part of the officer. So they therefore are not captured in our monthly use of force reports and did not rise to a level that occasion to press release. I could try to endeavor to do that. I certainly wouldn't be doing every single one but I mean, I could inform you of things. One of our brand new officers was he was spat on by a subject in brightness face in his eyes that's a crummy thing, it's no fun. It happens to police officers and firefighters. I could report on something like that if it were of interest to you because I don't believe that incident. I don't remember for sure but I don't believe that incident involved any use of force on the part of the officers and rise to a level of injury. Yeah, I'd hate to like add anything to your workload but if you capture that anyway then maybe like at the end of the year, something like to say, oh, we had so many incidents of whatever, if you're already capturing that data I don't want you to have to start a new data capture. Well, we captured, as I said, there are these first reports of injury. There must be some way for us to sort of say how many have come in and I certainly could add that. I have been expecting sort of to try to in addition to doing the data that we do on a monthly basis and coming up with a final year tally so that we know exactly how many mental health issue calls there were this year and how many total incidents there were this year. I was also gonna try to come up with some other categories of incident and this not rather categories of data and this might be one such category, first report. So I'll see if that's something that I can find over the next couple of days and give you a sort of a tally for how many first reports of injury officers did and then I'll see whether or not it can be disaggregated with regard to things that are sort of on duty and operational versus things that are on duty but we're training or officer stubs his toe inside the precinct as opposed to getting spat on by a subject. I don't know if I can, but I'll take a look. Thank you. Okay, thank you all for, so if I'm hearing it correctly, one has any concerns or questions about the use of force reports so we will continue for next month. We also did not receive any commendations from the citizens. So I don't know if we received any or not. We haven't, they were not forwarded to us chief. And of course we are happy to read any commendations but we didn't receive any. So just to let you know, so. I'm not certain, I didn't, I don't recall seeing anything direct to me. I'm not certain if Shannon saw anything or sometimes come to Sarah Treve and or to Sarah Tim. And so I'll see whether that happened but I don't have any for you right now. Right, and we did not receive one directly either because sometimes we do receive it directly but we didn't receive any. Okay, that concludes our general meeting. Is there a motion to move into executive session? Yes. Commissioner Oskie. I move that the commission find that premature general knowledge of grievance pertaining to the Burlington Police Department would clearly place the commission in a substantial disadvantage because the commission risks disclosing confidential information relating to potential disciplinary action if it discusses the grievance in public. Is there a second to that? Well, can I make a friendly amendment? Or is that before or after the second? Because this doesn't have to do with the grievance. This just has to do with hearing a complaint. That's under the statute. That's what we have to work with. Grievance is one of the reasons for there's complaint under the statute is not a reason to go into executive session. So I thought it would be discipline. It's a grievance. Okay. Okay. Is there a second? I'll second. Okay, all in favor. Going into executive session. Place your hand. Commissioner Garrison. All right. The motion passes. We will be entering executive session. No, no, no. Now I move that based on that finding of substantial disadvantage, the commission enter into executive session to discuss grievances under the provisions of one VSA section 313A1D and one VSA section 313A2. Okay. Is there a second to that? I second. All in favor. Say aye or raise your hand. Okay. Motion passes. We will enter executive session now. Am I correct, Commissioner Oskie? Yes. Can we take a five minute break? Yeah, we will not return. I just want to make sure we will not return to the public meeting after executive session. Is the link in email? I didn't see it before we started. Yes, it is. It's right after, it follows the public meeting link. So we'll see everybody there in five minutes. Thank you so much, everyone. Okay, bye.


What are Europeans interested in? Certainly not dealing with their past or taking responsibility for their future. So that leaves us with... Chargers. I guess we all love a good standardized charger, don't we? I do not wake up every day and I think, what people would like to click in like? But I ask myself the question like, but what people are looking for? One never knows what the audience is going to find interesting. We're a cultural journal. So we're not doing politics. What our role is to go behind the political topics and talk about the cultural topics, the underlying... News readers or media consumers, audiences are looking for opportunities to engage. They don't just want to read. They don't just want to have information come to them. The paradox is that we have so many information, but we are not informed better. Welcome to Standard Time, a Eurozone production. This is a talk show with guests from all over Europe. Today we have them join forces in our special episode where we bring you the folks behind Display Europe to talk about the house, what's and who's of European interests. I'm Reiko Kingapop, editor-in-chief of Eurozone, the magazine presenting this show. Eurozone is also a co-founder of Display Europe, a new platform bringing together different European topics through community media. Whether GMT, CET or EET, since this is a digital production, you get to watch it on your own respective European Standard Time. One day on a beach, the other day skiing in the Alps. The fantasy of the European Haven guarantees you open markets, political stability and work permits. You get to live and study in 27 different countries. All you have to do is have a stable functioning democratic economy and be there at the right time in the right geopolitical space. It's kind of like the Eurovision, where some countries just make no sense but are still there anyways. And it gets even better.  Now, speaking of Eurovision, the Song Contest is turning heads amongst young Europeans. And if there's anything that brings them all together, it's that they all agreed that Monoskin, a band whose pronunciation I had to look up because I'm too old to know what that is, so they were very hot back in 2021 when I was already old for this. But they were hot so much so that they may be enlisted to encourage young voters to vote in the upcoming European Parliamentary elections this spring. Besides Monoskin, more lighthearted topics such as the environment, housing, digitalization, the labor market and rising right-wing fascism seem to occupy the anxieties of most of the upcoming European generation, but of course, to varying degrees. While the EU promises sociopolitical cohesion across the continent, the problems arising from each of its member states pose a huge threat to its structure. Islamophobia in France, the repression of LGBTQIA rights in Poland and refugees being pushed back into the sea on the Italian border are only a small sample of the topics currently defining the European sphere. And ever since the deep insanity of Brexit took root, the United Kingdom's poorly strategized separation has resulted in a rise of Euroscepticism, including amongst Europeans themselves. Integration for EU citizens entails having a broader form of communication between them. Yet, if we are not all collectively facing the same issues, could we still be interested in the same things? How do international expats affect gentrification in Athens? How do Swedish people live? And why do they sell, in their convenience stores, Austrian goulash of all things? Alongside some founding members of the Display Europe platform, we discuss European sentiment and interests and delve into the strategies of bringing them closer together through accessible platforms for a wider audience. Agnieszka Wyszniewska is the editor-in-chief of Kritika Polityczna, a Polish opinion daily. Chicago raised Sarah Elizabeth Cooper of My Country Talks, facilitates a political dialogue and engagement journalism program for Germanist site online. Last but not least, our very own senior editor at Eurozine, Simon Garnett joins us to round out the show. Hello and very welcome. We are all Display Europe founders. One thing we talk a lot about amongst ourselves and we thought to bring in front of an audience is what are the common themes that Europeans are interested in? But Sarah, you are an initiator of a very direct intervention in this space with My Country Talks. Would you tell us about them and also what you have found in the iterations so far? What are the things that interest very different people across Europe? Yeah, so My Country Talks is a political dialogue program from the German newspaper, it's site online and it started off as a small program in just Germany where we said, hey everybody, would you like to talk to somebody who thinks differently from you? Our societies are disconnected. We feel like we have less and less opportunities to break out of our filter bubbles and our echo chambers. People don't have uncles anymore or what? But they do not talk with them. Okay, Sarah, Sarah. And also just provide maybe a lower stakes environment in which you can understand where people are coming from outside of the Christmas dinner table. Slowly expanded since 2017 when we launched to a global format and a pan-European format. So we've done now our fourth edition of Europe Talks that is a pan-European program where we say, hey Europeans, do you wanna meet someone who lives in a different country from you and also thinks differently from you and talk about these issues that don't stop at the borders like climate change and well obviously migration and other things like social values, European values and where we want our future to go. And people can participate in this year's iteration through display as well. So what are the mutual interests that they actually share? I think that everything that is on the ballot right now for the parliament elections for the EU, the issues and themes that we see coming up don't have a lot of variation. How are we gonna spend our money? Who are we as a people and what does that mean for who lives in our country and how do we see ourselves? What do we do about climate change and infrastructure and adapting to the future? How do we wanna raise our kids and what values and under which system should they be educated? Those, I wouldn't call them basic things but those are kind of universal themes. It's not just about how I might feel about those issues in Germany or in France but it's about how Germans feel about what's happening in France and having that kind of discussion as well. It's actually very rare that we have native English speakers on the show. So I apologize to everyone for having two at this time at the same time. But Simon, we are, of course, colleagues, we talk about this all the time. We know what we think is important but we don't always have an easy time identifying what an existing audience is already interested in, right? If we've learned anything, it's that one never knows what the audience is going to find interesting. So one's always surprised we're a cultural journal. So we're not doing politics or we obviously do that but we're not doing current affairs-type politics. What our role is is actually to go behind the political topics and talk about the cultural topics of the underlying when it comes to learning about the cultural debates in other European countries. I think that's something that interests people and there's a debate about how does Europe, as our kind of entity, respond and react to the Ukraine war, European foreign policy, the development of European defense policy, European army, et cetera. Less obvious ones would be... We've recently done a quite extensive focus on food and water politics. It's less obvious because who needs food and water? Well, yeah. And just today, in fact, we've published a piece on the history of fertilizers and I can tell you that this is absolutely fascinating and it's something one has to know. We get to Agnieszka finally. Kritika politichna is an opinion daily.  I don't know people who have that many opinions and you have always worked with a regional scope at least, right? So you have built a network of your own and you have always worked across borders. Why was that so important to Kritika politichna in a European media sphere where most of the media are stuck in national silos? In Poland, I think most of the media stuck in the capital city. Why this is important to write what is going on around because people want to know that because we do not only publish like opinion, what do we think, what this person, another person think. We very often publish some explanations and this is something people are looking for because there is lots of information. Like there's too many information and the paradox is that we have so many information but we are not informed better. We are political magazine but political means we focus on cultural issues, social issues. Culture is very popular on our website. You ask like, you know, what are people interested in in Europe? I think they are interested in understanding. I think for years we were focused on the fact checking. There is too many information and we need to fact check everything. Like who is checking fact check websites? Like no one is doing this. Like so this... This is what I've been banging on about for such a long time. Like fact checking is really important but it's not content in and of itself. Fact checking is a tool but this is a tool to show what is happening. The huge topic in Poland, especially for young people, is like where can I live? Like if I will not gonna live with my parents, like how can I afford to rent a flat? Housing is a huge topic like everywhere. But this is something we can follow how other people are doing this, like how they do this in Vienna, how they do this in this city, why this solution is like not the best solution and so on. Admittedly the whole crisis is a very international one so the causes of the housing crisis are cross-border. That's why this topic is very interesting because it's really connected with each person. Like it doesn't matter if you're interested in politics, no interest, like it doesn't matter what your opinion or your right, left, whatever. Yeah but that's only part of the story. Join the Display Article Club, a community space to exchange ideas and talk about the hard topics. Each month we host a discussion about the articles which are featured here on Standard Time, moderated by a journalist or editor. Everyone is invited to share their opinion, ask questions and offer critique. The Article Club is also an open space to discuss culture, politics and more with people all around Europe and around the world. The Display Article Club is hosted on LinkedIn Spaces and you can join us at the URL below, on the Display Portal or you'll also find the link in Display Newsletters. Yeah but now you're stealing my thunder so let's get back to the conversation. I think this is part of this digital disease, publishing in and of itself is so much more fragmented than just 25 years ago. Sometimes I feel like there's, you know, now we talk about investigative journalism, being the solution to everything, but nobody reads investigative pieces all day, every day either, right? Nobody reads Eurazine only every day. Or if you do, let us know. Simon, how do you feel about this fragmentation? What do you think that culture journals or magazines actually offer in this space? Cultural journals are tended to be generalist so that they can include the investigative type journalism, they can include literary work, literary criticism, theory, social matters, cultural matters, etc. Eurazine takes its network and brings it onto a European level and there tries to form connections. And I think that's also part of the attraction of a cultural journalist to actually have this kind of sheer eclecticism. I just want to direct to your initial question about fragmentation and I see it happening as well. Media, as we know, is in crisis, financial crisis. They're not getting funded from public institutions. They're not getting funded from ad revenue or subscriptions. And so many media are finding that long reads, for example, or investigative journalism or essays that are over 5,000 words tend to drive the most subscriptions and the most reader engagement and loyalties. It's supposed to be an ecosystem with a lot of very different players. One-on-one of business management is that multiple contestants in the same field up to a certain level, until a monopoly arises, they actually strengthen each other. Within these talks that you facilitate, is there something that comes through about what they want to read or watch or listen to? Is there a tendency for certain types of readers to engage more or less? It really depends on where we're working and which media we're partnering with. For example, in Europe talks that we're building a pan-European coalition, we try and get a very good mix of countries and also political perspectives, large and small, indie news readers or media consumers, audiences are looking for opportunities to engage. They don't just want to read. They don't just want to have information come to them. There's this idea of journalism as a service that journalism is not just publishing information but it's creating an ecosystem for one person to understand what's happening and then understand how to make better choices in their life or find spaces for community around the topics that they're consuming information around. So I think that the people who join our programs like Europe talks or the country talks, they're relieved to have one more opportunity to actually get more information on a one-to-one level through direct exchange or talk to a journalist or just have a sounding board with somebody else to say, this is what I understand. Is it right or do you understand something different? Today we come to you from Café Disco, a cool small café here in the Zonwenviertel in Vienna, Austria. This is part of Bikes and Rails. It's a housing project whose units can never be monetized. Check out our episode on housing to learn more about it. It also houses a bike repair shop. You can hear them in the background. But now, back to where we were before. It's not very professional for an editor but I will confess that my perpetual habit of consuming news has always relied on other people's recommendations. So I've never been the kind of newspaper reader who opens it and reads it, either physically existing paper or online, just go through the whole thing. Social media now is, I see as a map, you see what my friends are reading, they like it, they recommend it, so maybe it's interesting, and what the person, I think they had a different opinion if they like it, so why they like it. So on one hand, social media can really destroy media, and we can see this. But on the other hand, this is the reality. You cannot say that I don't like this reality. I think the trick is also, and the challenge for the media, is how to use these tools to have a contact with your audience and to really have the discussion and the real conversation. I do not wake up every day and I think, what people would like to click in? But I ask myself the question, what people are looking for right now, why the most popular article right now on the website is very long interview about the sex work. And I read it and I see, because this is very complex, because there are different perspectives. We can present and we can give the very complex picture. And the contact with the audience can give you the opportunity to rethink the role of the media. Another thing I'd like to just bring up again, in connection with what you just said, is that I think that small media also have a very important role actually in this community building type function. So the advantage of a small journal, of a small website, what have you, as a media organization, is that one has the ability to access the readership or the audience, however you want to put it. And in return one gains the trust of a readership. And actually if you look at how cultural journals particularly have evolved over time, they've always been like this. They've always been communities of intellectuals and a wider readership with relatively small subcultures who have grouped around these journals. And if we look at particularly the history of journals in the Eastern part of Europe, they've had much of them have come precisely from these kind of distant miliars. It's kind of an intimate publicity and in an environment where so much is measured by the sheer number of clicks that you can generate. These publicities I think are criminally underrated because you meet your audience in a point where they are much more receptive to new ideas. For instance, for the feminist movement journals have always been crucial. These are the public spheres when you can actually make your case and establish ideas before they get to a more superficial platform and before they get disseminated to more people. But I wonder how much inserting these topics works with an intervention program like yours. Can you inject the topics in there? Do people receive it or perceive it as well as once that they would pose or what is the mixture of topics that you come up with? How do you define them? Well, first of all, the conversations are completely private. So what people actually talk about when they're discussing across these political topics is it's up to them. But the questions that we land on the discussion questions are quite varied and general. We try and pick around eight questions that cover a range of usually policy topics that are causing polarization or causing division in the society that we're working in. But everybody obviously brings their own perspective to those topics, and that's why this format seems to work so well is that what we promise you is a one-on-one conversation with one other person. And that person will come with everything that they've read and everything that they know about this topic. These are not experts. These are not academics or journalists. I think that's kind of what you're alluding to with these journals, that an idea comes and kind of takes root and then gets processed into the wider society. And I think that happens to all of us at an individual level as well. And each person meets the other person in all of their perspectives to talk about these broad issues. Hey there!  Someone who has a personal favorite of mine, easily the favorite podcaster of mine in the whole wild world. She's a colleague and a partner, Claire Potter, a professor emeritus of history from the New School for Social Research in New York. She was the co-founder of Public Seminar, one of our partners in the URZ Network and her sub-stack called Political Junkie and her podcast called Why Now Are Fantastic. So if you like these kinds of in-depth and entertaining conversations, you're going to love everything that Claire does.  Now back to the program. Cultural exchange, the model idea that I got as a child seemed like a one-way thing that ideas are going from west to the east and the east is going to have to adopt things. This model very spectacularly collapsed quite some time ago. Agnieszka, you guys have always focused on your broader region, Europe as well and general international news but on the broader region, which Eastern European or Central European countries in the former Eastern Bloc don't really like to do. Kritika Poeticzna started in 2002. I mentioned this because there was the moment not so like 10 years, 14 years after the transition, after 1989 and the main narration was the narration that now the Eastern Europe joined the Europe. Now we need to be focused and almost many NGOs, many people like were focused on west. In Kritika Poeticzna, this Eastern tradition, this Eastern history was very important. The moment when we started was important but also that when we grown up we started to cooperate with some magazines, with some media from the region, from Eastern Europe, Central Eastern Europe. We tried to support each other. Even what we talked about the smaller media, as a smaller media we could exchange knowledge. We could ask even the simple question like, how do you do this? Working in the region and thinking that these cooperations are important, was important when we also cooperated with the magazines, organization, NGOs, cultural centers, cultural institutions from the Western Europe. I can use this experience when I think about how the bigger media work and the smaller media. How the media or the organization in capital city work or smaller cities work. When you are big you don't think maybe a lot about your audience, you need the audience to sell the commercials. When you are the smaller medium or medium size medium, you don't have this kind of challenges.  Readers of Kritika Poeticzna, they also want to engage in something and they look for information in your media. For me it's much more interesting to work on this kind of media and with this kind of community around. There are moments when the challenges we have like the money and how we can grown up and so on, how we can be sustainable. These challenges and these problems can be also the moment of finding completely new solutions. Big Kritika Poeticzna is an institution. I am a chief editor of online daily magazine but we also run publishing house. So we publish the book. So we are also part of the book market. We also run the institute. We run the social cultural centers and the possibility to use the knowledge from this different part of the institution gives us the chance to see really different perspectives. It can be inspiring for many, many people. There is an audience that are looking for that. Just to do like a closing ground I want to ask all of you whether you have one topic or one perspective that you would wish to put in front of every European to think about. I think I'm from Poland. For me this question is very simple. So for me the each time the perspective of young women this is the perspective I think like I always think about. I mentioned young because of the because of the demography right now in Poland the younger generation is like the smallest group let's say politicians are not very interested in them because they do not give them lots of votes and the women because women's right is still something we need to fight for. From my perspective I would like to see more outside Europe what's happening beyond the limits of Europe however you define it so that means more engagement, cultural engagement with Middle East, more cultural engagement with North Africa more cultural engagement with South Caucasus and Central Asia for example. All the Caucasus let's go crazy. Well let's bring them all in. And to me that's really interesting that's something that I hope we'll be pushing this year and moving forward. I guess just staying with the theme of elections or voting or politicians I'm very interested also coming from the US as I am of this idea of people voting against their own interests how the housing crisis which is affecting mostly capital cities is caused by investors coming in and kind of buying this up conflated with migration if there's too many people and not enough houses and then you see people coming in we could go one level deeper or maybe understand like root causes of things because I think many people might be surprised that the root causes not what they assume it would be for most of the problems we're facing. So the one topic that I would like to put in front of everyone it's many topics but the one that I would insist is housing, housing all over the place everything I have ever reported on regarding social issues always boils down to housing sex work boils down to housing access to housing affordability of housing homelessness well do I have to tell you about the demography at the same time so it's all over the place and this is somehow so criminally under reported in its actual depth I think we're all doing our worth in this field but it must be much higher on the agenda and of course it also has to do with climate thank you so much and you can see publishing from all of the guests and so many more on Display Europe and you can join my country talks and our article club as well. This program is presented by Eurazine an online magazine bringing you reads from more than a hundred partner publications and across dozens of European languages this talk show is a Display Europe production a content sharing platform which brings you content on politics in your community and so much more and somehow miraculously also doesn't abuse your user data shocker now if you want us to show you more of these cute animations or just like what you see and wish to support our work please go to patreon.com that is Eurazine the magazine presenting this show you can pledge as little as five euros a month or whatever you can afford and I promise we won't buy pickles from it instead you'll get access to bonus materials invitations to the taping of the show and even get to suggest topics and questions this program is co-funded by the Creative Europe program of the European Union and the European Cultural Foundation importantly views and opinions expressed here are those of the authors and the speakers they do not necessarily reflect those of the European Union or even the European Education and Culture Executive Agency neither the European Union or the EACEA can be held responsible for them I mean I do wish they took advice from us but apparently they just don't don't just see something online and start immediately touting it it's probably for the better


So we'll get started in a minute here. Hello, everybody. My name's Rodney Peck. I'm here from eBay. We're working on a project, eBay PayPal. And as part of that project, we're moving a lot of virtual machines into PayPal. So we've brought this information to you guys talking about how to move virtual machines in an efficient manner. My colleague, Darshan, is back at the office working. So he's not here to take up his part. So I'll do that for him. So the problem is, if you're running a large cloud, eventually, you've got to move some virtual machines. And why? Maybe you have added hardware or done a large open stack upgrade, and you can't do a minor version change. So you have to move the whole machine to a new hypervisor. Or maybe you've got a new data center, and you've got to move all of your machines to that new data center. Seems like a simple problem. But it turns out it's not so simple. First thing you'd try and do, use an open stack, is just make a snapshot. Use Glance, download your snapshot, copy it to the other server, upload it into Glance on the other side, and boot your machine. But the problem with that, I'll try and slow down so I don't go through the whole talk in 10 minutes. But the problem with doing that is, say you have 100 machines, and each one's got a 30 gigabyte disk. 30 gigabyte disk. You download that, that's going to take quite a bit of time. Even over a 10 gig link, 30 gigabytes takes some time. So you download that to your machine, and then you upload it to Glance on the other side. You've taken a snapshot of a machine that was taking no space in Glance other than the original image to boot it. And now you've made 30 gigabytes on your target Glance. You multiply that by 100 or 1,000 machines, and soon you've run out of space. You've got 30, 40 terabytes of snapshots on your target Glance server. And that's pretty expensive. And worse, every time you want to boot a machine on the target Glance server, it has to download the entire image just to boot it. So that's going to take forever. And it's going to use all of your network bandwidth. And it's going to be very expensive. So we thought about it for a while and came up with an alternate plan that we had used several years ago to upgrade from Essex to Folsom. And we took that plan and added more features to it so that we can do more than just VM booting. So as I said in the previous slide, moving all those images, you have an enormous amount of data. You're at QCal. If you look at how the images are stored in Nova, in Varlib Nova instances, the instance name, there's a disk file. And then next to that, it has a backing file. The backing file is your base image, and it's stored in a different place. All the VMs, my iPhone is syncing its photos. I don't know why. It just decided it was time. All your VMs will lose all of their overlay efficiencies. So on the target system, for example, where normally you say booted and booted base image of a gigabyte or so, and then you have your local disk overlay. If you copy all of these to the target, it will, you don't want to see my beach photos, I'm sure. OK. It will use all your space. And the image will be flattened. You'll have the base image overlaid with your data, and then it will upload that every single time to your target. So you'll lose all your efficiencies and overlays. On the hypervisors, where you're booting from, the base directory will be full of all of the base images instead of just the one tiny Ubuntu image, and then all of your overlays. So all in all, it's just not a good situation. What else did I add here? Users' roles and quotas. That's an important point that I added at the last minute, is using Flyway, it'll copy all of your user information. The tenant, the members of the tenant, their roles in the tenant, the quota of the tenant, all of that gets copied over. If you just snapshot, none of that happens. You'd have to do it all yourself. So Flyway, it copies VMs between clouds. It's designed around a message bus queue, and it copies directly between the hypervisors. So I can kind of go into the architecture a little bit here. You can see over on the far left, there's an API server. A user might enter, I want to migrate a tenant from this zone to this zone. And then that goes into the Flyway queue, which is a list of tenants to be processed. And it gets picked up out of the active MQ by an agent who's listening for messages. So that agent will start the process of initiating the users and the roles in the target based on the source. And then it'll send a special message to the hypervisor over here in Cloud B to rsync its data from the hypervisor in Cloud A. So what that's doing, and that's sort of the secret sauce in Flyway that makes it better than just doing a snapshot. What it'll do, it'll take the base image, it'll synchronize it to the other side, and then boot a VM and shut it down. So you'll have a same-sized flavor on the other side, but the data will be just the base image. So then it shuts down the source as well for consistency, and it tells the hypervisor to rsync the data file to the other directory. So now you've got the overlay disk and the original backing file, but it's a different UUID. So it does a backing store, stitches it together so that the new Kukau image is exactly the same data as the source. So what we've done is we only copy the base image, which is very small, maybe a gigabyte of Ubuntu. And then the file's written to the VM in the overlay data file, which is much, much smaller than the overall image. So that's what gets synced between the two. And then in your glance, all you have is the base image. You don't have all of the flattened images. And that's basically all there is to it. And then this sort of shows the progression as it goes through the queue. At any of these times, something might go wrong and it falls into an error state, and we have a database that collects the status. So that's basically the structure of it. And what we're looking to do is we'll be putting this in open source. Hopefully people will pick it up and be able to add additional features and things. The idea is that it's a framework, and we've added in Cinder, we've added in Trove, and Load Balancer as a service that migrates all of them. So if somebody had some other kind of feature that they wanted, it should be pretty simple to add that. Basically, there's some pre-staging, staging, and post-wrap-up. You make a class and add it to it. So just to go through some of the features, Flyway, it makes the migration as transparent as possible. And it copies all of these things. I don't really need to read them again. But essentially, what we're trying to do is if you're a user of the one cloud and you have to move to another cloud, it's transparent to the users as much as possible. I have another section about FlyView, but maybe we could do questions and answers. It's not Flyway. Does anyone have any questions? Yes. There's a microphone if you want to so the other people can hear. Or you can just say it you're close. I can repeat it. Yes. Right. Yes. So in order to make this work, this question is what do you have to do to make the R-sync between the two VMs or the hypervisors work? What sort of setups are required? It's quite a bit. So in order for this to work, in our case, we have a lot of security and firewalls. So we have to open the firewall between the hypervisors in the zones. So in order for the performance, you have to do that. So we open port 22 between our production zones in order for that to be allowed. We also open Keystone, Nova, Cinder, Trove, all of the open stack services between the two zones so that the agent can talk to them. So there's quite a bit of firewall setup that you would have to do. It's true. Yes, sir. So I have a question about the VMs. When you migrate them over to the VIP them because they're in a different cloud? Excellent question. Yes. So what it does, it saves the original name when you Nova boot. Our system will assign a four-digit number to the prefix name and then the local domain name. When you migrate to the other cloud, it's got a different domain name. It's got a different network and all of that. It takes that initial name and uses it to Nova boot again. So you'll get, say, your host was Rodney11111. It'll come out Rodney2516 or something, some other number in the other cloud. But it'll have the same prefix. And we also keep a mapping in the database of source UUIDs to target UUIDs. And that's used by Trove and other parts of Flyway to know how the VMs they use are used in the other cloud. So the users could do that too. They can look up and find out, I had a server I used in the source cloud. What's its new name? They can look that up and it'll show them. But definitely, they don't keep the same IP address. They don't keep the same domain name. It reruns cloud in it. When the machine comes up, it has a new UUID. So we leveraged that to use cloud in it to set the domain, the DNS, the resolver, the LDAP, all the localized variables. But the content of the disk is saved. Yes, you can go ahead here. What do you think? Is it doable to do it live without turning off the VM? Yeah, so it's not live migration, like VMware. But it's snapshot point-in-time migration, I would call it, I guess. The source VM has to be shut down for data consistency. If you were feeling risky, you could try and migrate them when they're idle. But the problem is the source VM might have data in its memory that hasn't been flushed to disk. So if that were to happen and you synchronize it over to the other side and try and boot it, it'll just fsck and crash horribly. So in order for consistency, we shut down the source VMs. You might be able to do something like inject a sink and halt it, suspend it. Some sort of way to make the data consistent. But for reliability, for the number of machines we're doing, we decided that we'll just tell users we're going to shut down your machine and then reboot it for you. And so it's not really live, because it does have an impact on the users. Sure, second question here? Yes, I will. I can't really see you guys over there. There's a really bright light over your head. So if I'm looking at you, but I can't, yeah. OK, I won't throw it. What about if your VM got the back-and-file in RBD? I mean, Seth, do you do RBD export and import on the other side, or just don't care this case? What was the first part? The export what? RBD export. I mean, your VM got a disk in Seth, as RBD image. Oh, boot from volume, we mean. Not the volume, just the normal disk. In Seth? In Seth. Well, we don't do that. But I can maybe talk about boot from net, which we do do, where we have a Cinder volume, and that's the VDA root disk. That's sort of a weird situation, because it copies the VM, and then it does the volumes afterwards. In the case of boot from volume, you have to copy the volume first, and then boot it. So I have to write that code this afternoon. But yeah, so we're adding edge cases, and that's one of them. Is there a way to map the users from one cloud to the other? Yes. So when it migrates the tenant, the tenant, it'll look up in Keystone and find all the users in that tenant, and it'll check to see if they exist on the target. If they don't, it creates them, and then adds them to the tenant that it creates on the target. Also the roles. So if you're a member or admin, it also copies that. Well, we don't map it to other users. We try and keep it the same, but you could change the code a little bit, but it's certainly doable. You just replace the target name with whatever you want it to be when you create it. It's possible. Right. Not yet. Yeah. Those are the sort of things that are really interesting that would be extensions that are not that difficult, but don't really fit our use case. So that's an interesting thing. Yes. Yes. That's exactly what we're doing. So the question was, does it do volumes? Does it do Cinder? And yes, absolutely. In fact, it does any Cinder. It's based on a particular vendor of Cinder right now, but it's Cinder Cinder, so it'll copy any volumes between. So in fact, we built it because we have a particular application for it, so eBay. And we're doing thousands of VM migrations for exactly that thing. Because there's so many, we can't be individually checking them, so we need it to just be as transparent as possible. No, no, you could, but that would be pretty aggressive. So we migrate everybody, let them boot them, and then come June 15th, we'll delete the sources as the plan. So I wanted to, if there's not another quick question, the other half of this is about Fly View, which is a tool we invented to help visualize a cloud. So this is one of my tenants, and you can see the yellow things are Cinder volumes, and the blue are VMs of different flavors. So one of my Cinder volumes is attached to my VM. So that's one tenant. And then you can take that bigger into a zone, and these are each kind of a blow-up of a particular cloud zone. The big red ones are half a hypervisor. Those are 16 processor virtual machines that we use for our stages. And then the little ones are mediums and larges over there. And then this is like a zoomed in section of a larger cloud. So that's over on the left again, and this is one of our data centers here on the right. You can see the stage tenant on the bottom left is really, really big. And then there's some small, bigger ones.  It's an interesting thing, and we have a movie showing the life of the cloud. It turns out from the NOVA records, every time a VM is booted, it's logged a date and time. And then when it's deleted, it's logged. So if you go into MySQL, you can actually make, I wasn't going to show this, but why not. You can make a movie of a growth of a zone over time. So this is one of our data centers, and you can see each frame is a week. And you can see that one's one tenant getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. So that was several months of that one. No, it's just I didn't think it would go so high. I didn't know how many we'd have. So questions or anything? We have 10 minutes or so? Yes. Yeah, that's a very good question. The way that the main issue that we would have is volume transfer. If we do too many tenants at the same time, we'll be pushing too much data maybe from eight or 10 hypervisors simultaneously at 10 gig rates through our switch. And that would saturate the connection between the two. So it uses AMQ, and it has an agent that listens to the queue, and we can have any number of messages in the queue, and then tune the agent so that there's only 5, 10, whatever number we want running at once. And that's how we can control the process. So right now, we're running with 32 servers at the same time. I need to talk to our legal team to find out what we need to do to vet it, but I would expect in the next month or two, we'll have it online. PayPal and eBay have a GitHub that's available publicly, and I think that's what it would be. And of course, if people are interested in working with it, we can. It would be great if somebody were interested and could take it to the next level here. I don't think our team has time for that. Yes? Yes? Right, there could be firewall issues. There could be database access issues. So the question is, like, how do you tell the users? What do they have to do when they migrate, and how long do you wait before you delete their source? And the answer is, we'll migrate them, and the VMs are left unbooted, so they will boot them up, and then they'll go and look at them. So if they've just migrated a big MongoDB database, it's not going to work. It's just the data's not going to be in the right format. So what we recommend in that case is they boot it, erase all the data, and then use whatever data transfer mechanism is there, like MySQL dump, copy it, and restore it to the other side. They're MongoDB, the same sort of thing. But in general, the checkout process, what we're planning to do is we give them some time to work on it, and if there's a problem, we'll help them with it. But we don't want to just delete their source. In this particular case, though, Paypal is going to be its own company, so at some point. Yeah, we also do update DNS, because we have our designate and new DNS service. Yeah, we can. We can change their C names to point to the new one. We can make it as seamless as they like. It doesn't look like a lot, too, that you do all that. Right, so we don't want to just make it hot, because there's too many teams.  But we can't deal with 800 people asking questions at the same time, so we'll let them change it when they're ready, because they understand the application's better than we do. They could, you could, this is for DR. So for disaster recovery, say you already have an application running, and you want to make a DR of it. Yes, you could snapshot and clone it with this tool, which kind of brings up the philosophy cloud related. This is pretty anti-cloud in a lot of ways, so we're kind of hesitant to put this out there, because it encourages people to make one, and then just rubber stamp it, which isn't what we recommend. We want you to use a base image, and then use Puppet or some sort of source code management to boot a base image, and then run your stuff on it. In reality, that doesn't happen. And in this case, we need to move all of these quickly, so we're trying to make it transparent. But that said, you could use it for a feature to move it to another cloud very quickly for DR, if you wanted to. I don't know. We're kind of flipping back and forth internally as to whether we'll keep this around after we do the migration, because of that reason, because it encourages people not to use cloud techniques. He's the first. Is it possible to just move to different hypervisors? Yes. Do you mean in the same cloud? In the same cloud? Sure. Yeah, if you give the target cloud of the same as the source, it'll just do exactly that. It doesn't know that it's the same cloud. So that would be another application where you've bought new hardware, and you want to move to the new hardware. Maybe you just migrate everybody to the new, bigger hardware, and then retire the old hardware. You had a question? It was like, can you migrate to the same cloud? That was a question, sorry. You can't all hear him. About security groups, is it also migrated? No. We didn't migrate the security groups. It's very simple to do. In our case, we have default security group that's open for everybody. So we're a private network. So yeah, RVMs boot up with open 0, 0, 0, 0, slash 32. But it's a relatively simple thing. And in the framework, it's any sort of open stack service. We could add a module to it where it says, all right, query it from this side, massage it to whatever we need to do, and then apply it to the other side. So we could do security groups. We also do key pairs. So that's, thank you, so your head, yes. Right, so the question is like, let me see. Would you use this with public, without the rsync trick, if you can't get to the hypervisors between the two clouds? Say you're migrating from Amazon to your private cloud, how would that work? We thought about that. You could have multiple ways to do the migration and use the one that's ranked highest. Like if you can connect, do that. If you can't, then use our SSH. You know, if you, there's ideas on that. We don't have any solution for that though. But as we were toying around thinking about what would be interesting to people in open stack summit about this talk, which is really focused on what we do, we're thinking, you know, you could add an abstraction layer where you just plug in, this is for Amazon and this is for this other cloud and this is, and then migrate it. Use it as a tool to migrate between public clouds, private clouds, things like that. It wouldn't be that difficult to add that abstraction layer on. Then you might need to figure out some other way. Possibly, right. So like for volume copy, the same sort of thing. If you have a backend service that has some fast way of moving the compressed data between the nodes, you'd want to use that. But you could also just use DD to copy the entire data from one disk to the other, but you're a lot slower. Yeah, I don't think it's open. Yeah, so in that case, you may have to instantiate a socks tunnel on either end or something like that. You know, it's hard to say. I don't know how much time we have. Six, maybe 10 minutes. It's good questions. Thank you everybody, if there's no more questions.