ues. Chancellor Hales will remember the situation where a development had to be forced to be unoccupied because the foul system could not cope with the extra demand. And this is a persistent problem. The angliam water system is obliged to take flood water overflows. They can't deny it. But that occasionally causes problems as it did in December 2019 with backflow so that people are getting horrible situations arising through their toilet sewage systems. Chancellor Hales. I didn't expect to be that quick. I'm surprised, Chair, that we have a system that is alleged by the parish council that has an S-bend in such a short distance to the main that it connects to. It would be interesting to see if there's any pictorial evidence for that because why would you put in an S-bend pipe which is under pressure, it's daft. And if anything out of any of this I would ask that the angliam water or the developer comes back and they find the straight route to the drains rather than anything else. Because you have resistance. The minute you put a bend in a pipe you've got resistance on a pipe. As I said, the likelihood of blockage is much greater. Chancellor Martin Cym. It's a loss to really to have to respond to this because as has been said frequently, angliam water never objects, it always has to accept. It's clear there are problems with the sewage system in Linton that generally is being overcharged. Yet in a sense the decision whether we're going to have a problem on the general sewage system was taken when the original application was approved because it's inevitable you're going to have to put sewage in the system. And it's going to work. Presumably the system is designed as we've been told. You won't have surface water going on to the system in the new development. So you're just adding foul sewage into a system which is overloaded. It's not going to help. So what do we do? Do we refuse the system whether or not do they do? Are we going to put in a massive septic tank to deal with it? How are we going to handle it? I don't really. So I find I find myself in a quandary because obviously there is a happiness about it, but I don't really know what happens if we refuse. So I express just express my concern about the conundrum that we put in a quandary we put in. Right. No other speakers before we come to a conclusion. Oh, yes. Yeah, thank you. Well, just quickly, I think I do share some of the concerns of some of the speakers today as someone who has lived in the area. I do know that that foul water system does take water from elsewhere, not just the foul system. So I appreciate we that is not what we can judge it on. And obviously Anglian water only based their calculations on foul water, even though they in our own documents do accept that the one of the reasons for the flooding is because other water got into their system. But I appreciate from a planning point of view. It's very difficult to to go against that go against what our statute consultees are saying. But as someone who does know the area on a personal level, I mean, I can't hear any good conscience vote for something I know is unlikely to be fit for purpose. So in my I'm sure I'll be in the minority, but I will either be abstaining or voting against you. Thank you. I would add my my own comments here. Our only statutory consultees on this are of course Anglian water. I accept the reservations about their previous advice that have been made by a number of councillors here today. But I still think we have to take very seriously what they say. They have confirmed that there is adequate capacity within the system for the foul water flows from development to this site. The proposal would not be detrimental to the foul sewage network or the local area. And it's also been confirmed that the combined impact of foul drainage from this site and the Barlow Road site has been taken into consideration. Now, do we therefore accept the officer's recommendation that the planning committee accept the following the foul drainage details, not formally discharged? Or do we reject this in which case we have to ask ourselves what is to happen in the absence of a drainage system that has been approved? We have some more speakers. Right. So I gather that the first was councillor, the Williams, please. Thank you, chair. I'll keep it brief. So this is the situation we often find ourselves in, isn't it? That we have technical advice, we have Anglian water, we know we're obliged to do something and then we have local knowledge, local experts that have seen it and events have happened. And we seem to be always in this sort of battle of wills of almost mind over heart. And maybe it's the time of day, chair, but I've become a little bit impatient of this battle between us and having the responses and then not going with the local views and local expertise. So on this application, we've done it on one other, I'm willing to give my balance in favour of local people who have seen the damage I've heard from both local members and I'm going to vote against. Right. I think we still have other speakers. Councillor Bradlin, you have spoken before, do you have something you need to add? Yes, please. Thank you, chair. I am looking at the drainage plan and I remember the case officer showed us very briefly on her laptop yesterday when we were on site. And the best bend people are referring to is that the plan takes the sewage directly, this plan is running north, north up the main access road, west between two properties, then north again to the rear of the garden of Plot 35 and then into the manhole at Lonsdale. Now I have local, immediate and experience of this sort of right angle bend getting blocked in sewers and I'm just wondering if there's any room to ask the developer to recreate those corners. I know that there are people already on site, there's already usage of this, but I'm just wondering if there's any mileage in which we could ask for those right angle bends to be made gentler curves so that they don't block. Question. And it's already in use. Chair, you're right. The scheme before you is the one that you need to consider if you're unhappy with the orientation and alignment of the drainage system and you need to express that view by not supporting the proposals. I would just add that the system has been inspected by the building control team, but obviously I can't comment on individual, very localised elements of that drainage scheme, but I don't think it's within the gift of the committee to condition effectively an adjustment to a very specific element of the scheme in front of you right now. You'd need to reject the proposal. So the proposal we are now about to vote on is the recommendation. Does Councillor Hales want to speak again? Super quick chair, it was something you said earlier when you were reading out the Anglian water. So there was plenty of capacity or slack in the system. The same thing happened in Melbourne. Anglian water said exactly the same thing. They said there was 50% slack in the system. When they did the hydraulic test that we held them to account, there was the system at 100% capacity and therefore they added capacity to the system. I would probably say no more other than I think we have another similar situation. OK. Well, I think we now proceed to the formal vote. If you could set it up for us. Usual thing, if we accept the recommendation of paragraph 40, then we vote green. If we reject it, then we vote red. Well, that is clearly six to one on water vote. Yes, that is clearly refused by seven votes to two one abstaining. So we now move on to, I promise we would get there in the end. Chair, can I just clarify for the committee the reason for refusal of the drainage, the foul drainage scheme? Because I've heard two broad threads. The first one relates to capacity in the local network to receive the foul drainage detail, the effluent from the site. And then I've also heard a conversation around the alignment of the foul drainage system on site. But it would be helpful to clarify. My only concern is that obviously any planning inspector looking at this is going to ask the foul water receiving authority for a position in respect of the foul sewer and you have that in front of you. But is it that the alignment of the foul water sewer on site is the reason for your rejection or is it both? And I'd be grateful if you could clarify that for me please. I think it is both, isn't it? Let's see who put, I think, Councillor Bradner me with one who was concerned particularly about the alignment. And I think others, let's not debate it, but I think others were concerned about the capacity. If you remember, Chair, I did make a point that you might find useful. One of them was the alignment of the sewer and the suggestion that it looks wise to maybe make sure that right-angled bends are made so that they're not right-angled so that they're small curved and they're less likely to block. That's my personal view, I'm not a sewage expert. Are we talking about the reasons for refusal here? Yes, that's what I'm doing. The second one is that Anglian Water admit at paragraph number 11, second part of it, that surface water enters our foul only network. And that I think they should be required to address that. I would say you cannot cite Anglian Water as a reason for refusal when they have not objected and indicated that they have no objection to the proposals. So you are, I'm afraid, you cannot cite a statutory consultee saying something that he's not saying. Excuse me, director. What I was saying was that they have, I quite take your point, they have not objected to the, you know, they've proposed the application, so of course they've worked. But they are saying that surface water enters their foul only network. And I'm just saying it would seem wise to ask them to address the matter of surface water entering their foul water network. OK, I'm not proposing to open a debate here. All we're seeking to do is to find for the director one or two reasons which he can cite as the reason for refusal. The decision has already been taken on this one. And I think so far as is possible the director has a clear understanding of our reasons for refusing this. I think if you can delegate to me, I think there are two elements. You're not cite, but you are maintaining a concern which the parish council have identified about the ability of the foul drainage in Linton to receive the outputs from this site. I mean, that is a problematical reason for refusal because it's got planning permission as I think council can't highlight it. But then the other element is that the horizontal and vertical alignment of the foul sewer detailed in the drawings gives rise to a concern in terms of potential for blockages. Can we delegate it to the director to describe it in broadly those terms? We don't need to dictate the exact wording to him. We can then move on to the next item. Is that OK? Is the director is at? Well, that's my next point is. We're now at five past five. I believe our legal advisor has kindly agreed to defer some other matter so that he can stay with us. And I believe our director is able to stay with us. We have no further meetings until June. I think it is important that we deal with the matters before us. So if we could respond to the chapter that effect and if members will agree, we proceed. Thank you. So we come to list as items seven land to the northeast of Children Farm Children Estate. Page one, two, three in your papers. It's renewable energy led generation station. Applicant Mr Hawkins on the half of solar century. The recommendation is approval. The presenting officer Tom Gray is Tom Gray still with us or? Yes. Tom, sorry to have held you up so long. Thank you for joining us. Please give us your presentation. Bear in mind that we have seen the papers before us. OK, I'll keep it short. Thank you. Just a couple of things in terms of clarification. The first point is in paragraph one of the report. It refers to solar arrays and ancillary structures covering an area of approximately 80 hectares. It should refer to 23.6 hectares of land. That is the area of land covered by the structures. The 80 hectares of land actually refers to the red line area of the site, which also includes landscaping, enhancements and biodiversity enhancements. A couple of updates. Recently, the plan portal has been updated with new plans just clarifying the CCTV layout of the proposal in addition to the inclusion of the AC combiners within the energy farm compound. This is just a matter of clarification. A third party representation has been received in the last couple of days. I can summarise what they said. They are strongly in favour of the proposal. They live fairly close to the application site along Battlegate Road. There's a limited number of places where solar farms of this size can be located, because of the limitations and the location of the power line infrastructure. The loss of the agricultural output from these eight hectares of land will be outweighed, but they are used to land in meeting the urgent need to cut CO2 emissions. It would also enable diversification of the farm business. This third party representation is available on the website. I will now go into my presentation. Can you confirm that you can see my screen, chair? Thank you. The proposal is for a solar farm and then solutions structures located to the north of the Children's Estate, which is going to change my pointer. This is the Village of Children and the estate here. To the north of that is the application site. The site access is gained from the A428 to the south via an access road. The proposal seeks a 37-year temporary consent for the solar farm. This is 50 megawatts of power generated, which could power up to 14,200 homes. In terms of site constraints, the site is bounded on three sides by public right of ways. To the east is a bridleway and the other is a footpath. There is also a historic park and garden to the south and also listed buildings, which are displayed on your screen now, these hatched pink lines. As a previous application for the site is for 2015, there are two reasons for refusal, the first one being the size and scale of the development and the impact upon the landscape character and the visual impact upon the footpaths, and the other one being the lack of evidence. The proposal is for a solar farm, as I just mentioned, with solar arrays and a solar generation generating and solar structures here. The point of connection would be to the west and it would only be 0.7 kilometres away. The solar arrays would have a height of approximately three metres in height with a gap of approximately 3.5 metres between the arrays. The ancillary structures would be quite modest structures. I would range from about three metres to up to 6.75 metres in height, but there would be a significant distance from any public right of ways. The landscape impact has been a lot of work done in terms of the mitigation of landscaping. The landscape officer is content that there is enough planting along the footpaths to mitigate any impact. And substantial biodiversity improvements. In terms of the landscape visual impact, the top image shows it currently, what it looks like. After one year, the middle picture shows what it would look like. And then after ten years, that is the bottom picture. And this is from the northeast of the application site. Again, the same sort of pictures. This is from the southwest of the site. And this is from the south of the site. And these are some other photos and some photos of my site visit. In terms of the agricultural land use classification of the area, as the members would know from previous committee items that South Cambridgeshire has good high quality agricultural land. And this picture, this is from the DEFRA land classification website, which demonstrates that there is a lot of grade two agricultural land, which is described as very good quality. In terms of the grid connection, it would be connected to the grid, to the grid line between Little Barford and the Houston point to connection at a point, as I said, of 0.7 kilometres away from the application site. So the actual site itself is a mixture of mainly grade, subgrade 3a, which is regarded as good quality land. There is some grade two, very good quality land, and also some subgrade 3b, moderate quality. So grades one to subgrade 3a are regarded as the best and most versatile agricultural land, or BMVAL for short. Anything below subgrade 3b is regarded as non BMVAL land. So in total the area has 83% of the land as BMVAL. There has been considered alternative sites using the provider sequential analysis, showing that there is no better developed land, previously developed land, as well as no poorer quality land available for the photolith arm. So officers considered the compelling evidence test has been met in this instance. The key differences between this and the previously refused application, you see the site area has been reduced. The grades two land, the quantity of that has been reduced a portion of that down to from 37% to 22%. The area of land developed, actually developed is from 90 hectares down to 23 hectares. There's more planting and there's actually a reduction in solar arrays due to technological advances during the recent years, and also more setback distances from the past itself. So the top image here shows the previous application. So this is the field to the east, which is included in this application. And you can see that the northern area has been emitted from the most recent application. So in terms of the planning balance, although there would be some landscape character impacts, with a loss of arable farming, this is obviously for a temporary period of 37 years. There would be some minor harm to the heritage assets during construction operation phase, but officers consider the public benefits outweith this. There would be a temporary loss of best and most first agricultural land in terms of food production. But given that the area, the farm, it only contributes 4.8% of the agricultural, of the actual land in possession of the applicant. This is considered to be fairly minor. The benefits, obviously, of the renewable energy considerations, continued agricultural use being the sheep grazing that the applicant intends to utilise, and biodiversity enhancements of approximately 141% by diversity net gain. The key considerations as far as principal development impact upon heritage assets and natural assets, the impact upon the agricultural land itself, on the countryside, landscape character, and cumulative impact of other solar farm developments in the area. A bod yn cael ei strydiadau o bobl, a'r rhai oedd y bydd y cyfnodau yma, a'r rhai o altru'r rhaid o'r bach o'u gwaith. Ddiolch i'n gofynol. Ddiolch i'n gofynol. I'm not keen that we take questions in view of the hour, but Councillor Bradlin. Chairman, thank you. It just occurred to me that I was on the planning committee that refused this on a previous occasion, gan gweithdifetig y pihaeth eich gŵr i gylech gan gydweithio eu maes, a oeddwn ni'n ddod ein ysgol y byrdd. Roeddwn ni'n gweithredu i'r maes o anghylchau eto newid i gydweithio'r maes. Roedden nhw'n meddwl. Roeddwch yn cyhoed. Roeddwn ni'n gweithredu i'r meddwl i'r bobl. Roeddwn ni'n gweithredu i'r bobl. Roeddwn ni'n gweithredu i'r bobl. Roeddwn ni'n gweithredu i'r bobl. We had a comparison slide of the key differences between the previous application and this one with a diagrammatic plan. The difference in area is mirrored in the update that the case officer gave us in paragraph 1, where it went from 80 hectares down to 23.6 hectares. ond mae'r reoedd ffaintllig yn ystod o'r 90 hektarau a 23. Rydyn ni'n gwybod i mi, mae'n fawr o'r cyfle oherwydd y maen nhw'n ysgrifennu'n rhai ddweud y gwrdd newydd. Felly y reoedd ychydig yn ystod o'r gwrdd newydd. Rydyn ni'n ddweud, rydyn ni'n gweithio'n meddwl i'r mwyaf? Yes, it's understood that because I've been using less solar arrays, almost half the amount there of solar arrays, so the actual distances between the solar arrays would be more in this application compared to the previous application. So, that didn't look like it from the proposal, the actual area that's covered the gaps would be more. All kind of acknowledging that it doesn't actually look like it's late. Could we have some explanations? I think, Chair, that the site area is the same, but the actual area of coverage, effectively the surface area of the panels is 23 hectares, rather than 80, the site area is 80 or so, I think is the point. And as a consequence of the density of the panels being reduced, there is less site coverage. So, Mr Kelly, are you saying there are bigger gaps between the panels? I think that's the point, and obviously the scheme also provides for grazing, I'm sure the applicant can actually clarify this point. The two pictures didn't seem to marry up with the two, 90 and 23. It may become clearer. Councillor Hales. Thank you, Chair. Just a quick question. Is there an S106 agreement attached to this tool which would benefit the local community, as has happened in other schemes? Thanks. No, there isn't one. Is there consideration for one then? Perhaps Stephen can answer that question. Thank you for that, Tom. I don't think the proposal attracts an obligation in particular through policies, my understanding at this moment in time, and that's why there isn't a S106 obligation for community payments. Well, recently there's been judicial reviews challenging the veracity of local community cash payments effectively in lieu of wind generation schemes on the principle that it's not mitigating the impact of the development. And indeed, regardless of the Secretary of State's position on that matter, it cannot, the Secretary of State's statement on that cannot replace government policy, as we've all read in recent case law in the last few weeks on the point. So I don't think it's necessary to mitigate the impact of the development, and therefore it's not quite. So if we were to agree to the recommendation and approve this, would it then not be possible to negotiate S106, even if it was shown to be benefiting the community affected? You couldn't give any weight to a S106 agreement. Purposes of S106 agreements in accordance with the SIL regulations are to mitigate the impact of the development. And the courts have determined that cash payments to local residents is not a mitigation for the planning impact of the development, even though you will be familiar with the Secretary of State has advocated that approach in previous cases. Right. Should we have another? Councillor Cym, quick question. It talks about generating and storing electricity, 50 megawatts. Well, megawatts is a power, it's not a quantity. How much actual quantity of electricity will be able to be stored, and what sort of delay will it use? Is that perhaps a question for more than a day's use of? Perhaps you could hold on to that question and see if you, try your luck later, see if you can get that answered. I don't guarantee an answer, but it may be something that can be dealt with. On that basis, I'd like to proceed to our public speakers, who have been extremely patient in waiting for us a long debate earlier on, which we are most appreciative. So first of all, we have Mike Barnard. Mr Barnard, you have... Right, we don't have Mike Barnard, but what we have instead is, OK, a short statement, which I shall read to you, as to what he would have said, and he will certainly not get a chance to ask any questions of this one. Right, I object to this planning application on the grounds that it runs counter to national policy, which for large-scale solar farms clearly states that best and most versatile agricultural land should not be used unless there is the most compelling evidence that justifies the selection of the site. This is a very high planning hurdle. The consequences of allowing it to be circumvented means that the thrust of government policy for solar generation to be on roofs, brownfield land, and lower-grade agricultural land is completely compromised. Why have a national planning policy if you're going to ignore it? If this application is allowed, it will be quoted as a precedent in all future solar farm planning applications on best and most vertical on BMAV, justifying future breaches of the national planning policy. What am I doing on time? Ask yourselves if the applicant has shown the most compelling evidence that this site is vital. The argument that Cambridgeshire has very little low-grade agricultural land and therefore high-grade agricultural land must be used is spurious. If there is little low-grade land in Cambridgeshire, then the potential for large-scale solar farms in the county will be limited, and that is perfectly acceptable. Not every council will be able to accommodate every source of renewable energy to the same extent. The lack of alternative sites was justified on a limited appraisal that only looked along the line of the overhead power lines, because the only reason this site has been put forward is that commercially it makes more money to be closer to the grid. And so what if there are limited local alternative sites? Renewable energy can be generated nationally, not along one power line. The other argument put forward was the fact that although the land is classified as mainly grade 2 and grade 3A, it's not that good really. But no evidence was provided. This is good arable land, and the current situation in Ukraine shows that food security is just as important as energy security. So no most compelling evidence has been provided, and the planning application must fail. In addition, a previous application was unanimously refused by the authority on the grounds of the impact on landscaping community and character. Whilst the size of the farm has been reduced slightly, this proposal introduces large shipping container-sized energy storage units into a highly attractive landscape. This represents significant industrialisation and much greater visual impact than the previous scheme. So if that was unacceptable then this scheme must by definition be more so. Mr Barnard says he has been told by the applicant that the scheme is commercially viable without the energy storage. In other words, the electricity provided, produced, flows straight into the grid. The reason for storage is so that the developer can maximise income by supplying electricity when the wholesale price is high. If you are minded to approve, I ask that you do so without the storage element to reduce visual impact. And he concludes, he refused a similar scheme before, and now with much greater visual intrusion I ask you to make the same decision again. So that is from Mr Barnard who wasn't able to stay on and present that in person. We now proceed to Gareth Hawkins, who is the applicant who is here with us today. Thank you. Please, the floor is yours for three minutes. Thank you, Chairman. My name is Gareth Hawkins. I'm a UK business development manager with StackCraft. StackCraft acquired Solar Century in 2021, and that was to add the solar expertise to StackCraft's 100 years of hydro, decades of wind, and newer technologies like hydrogen and green grid. StackCraft is actually the largest renewable energy producer in Europe at the moment. We're at the forefront of a low energy economy. We currently have investment plans of something around 670 million in the UK for clean energy projects. We're just trying, you know, the two things really are energy security and trying to achieve net zero in carbon. So this project, which we call Stargoos, is 50 megawatts of solar coupled with 40 megawatts of batteries. And it's one of the first co-located projects, batteries and solar in the UK. These are sort of complementary technologies. It allows us to create electricity from the solar, put it into the batteries, and then put the batteries into the grid because the demands in the UK grid are in early in the morning and early in the evening. It's just a smart move. We at StackCraft, I realise there's no section 106, but we do do a community benefit fund, and we do try and separate ourselves for that. And I understand Cambridgeshire has some kind of facility for dealing with that kind of distribution to worthy causes. The sizes of the site, we are much, much smaller than the 2015 application because where as they use three full fields, we are now using two part fields. We've actually given 26 hectares that we are leasing from the landowner and the 26 hectares are just for biodiversity. So I think there's, if you lose a field, you put the 26 hectares on, the modules have moved from 250 watts to 620 watts, so you've reduced the number of panels on site, then a bit more spread out, and I think that's where you see the difference in those hectares. I think the big thing is why have we chosen this site? People think it's great agricultural land. If you speak to the farmer, the fields on these two fields is terrible. The actual farming operation at Shilderley is over 4,000 acres. We're taking less than 4% of that entire farming business. Martin Jenkins, the landowner, will tell you that these are his two worst fields. The fact that we can put the solar on it, leave it fallow for 37 years, grey sheep on it in the summer will probably do more good to the land and try and to farm it and eat every last half a tonne of grain out of it for the next 40 years. The other reason we are there is the pylon line that crosses the site is the Burwell little barfed line. It's a 1-3-2 line, and there's capacity there. It's the reason there was an application in 2015. It's an application now. There's always going to be an application to try and do something with that line because grid capacity is very, very difficult to find. We're trying to get to net zero. I'll wind it up now. I'm trying to get to net zero. There's no one big switch, one magic bullet. This, to get there, is lots and lots of steps, big steps and small steps. I think this project is just another step to get to net zero, and I hope you can approve it. Thank you. Thank you. Yes, I'll probably let the time go over there, but in going on a bit longer, you've answered some of the questions as well. We have no representation here from the Parish Council. We could, if necessary, take additional questions in addition to those already answered. Okay, I have additional. Sorry, we haven't got to that yet. So we have, I think, some questions for the applicant from... I'm going to start with Councillor Hales, who's first to ask. If we could keep the questions brief, that would be helpful given the time date. Thank you. It's just very, very quick. The applicant made Mr Hawking to make reference to making a contribution to the local grant funding thing in Cambridge here. Is that right? Yeah, I'm sorry. I can't remember the name of the Cambridge facility that... CCF, I think, is the usual one. I think it's a community fund, yeah. I'm just interested to know what kind of level of contribution that might be. Particularly from this side. Sorry, it's not material consideration. Okay, then we have Councillor Milt. Yeah, just a couple of quick questions on the battery technology. Lithium is problematic for fire causes. Several instances where they've been causing problems and whether you've considered alternative storage such as the iron batteries that have just been recently introduced. And then just a question on the variance, so a 50 megawatt capacity, what was the variance between summer and winter outputs, please? Sorry, this is the last part of your question. Yeah, I'm just interested in understanding how the capacity of the site would change between summer and winter. Take account of obviously the greater server in summer. I suspect that that is probably also not a material consideration. I suspect probably that one or two of us ought to email you afterwards with interesting questions that maybe will not enable us to determine this application. Is that fair, Councillor Milt? The safety of the insulation certainly is... Can you deal with the safety question that was raised by Councillor Milt in relation to possible fire risk? Sorry, I'm not getting the question. Yes, the fire safety.  The technology has moved on from that and the battery is now an inherently safe. I don't know the chemical composition of them but I know it's not the original lithium-ion. Obviously, you can imagine that there's huge safety considerations when we build these sites. We're dealing with 132,000 volts of electricity. We're dealing with quite a large number of batteries. There's fire safety. There's an awful lot of HSSE stuff that goes into this that I'm not qualified to discuss to be honest. Thank you. I think Councillor Radden, you had a question. Thank you, Chair. Thank you. So, Mr Hawkins, one of the reasons the previous application was refused was because there wasn't sufficient evidence of the sequential test which is required in order to justify putting this sort of development in the green belt and I have the sequential report prepared by Isabel Holland. I note in that under two material alterations compared to the previous application, there is again this comparator between the two site, the two applications, the 2015 one and the 2021 one. If the officer would kindly put back on the stream that comparison of the key differences in the material alterations in the sequential site analysis, but not on this one, it says that the original area of land proposed by the panels in the 2015 application was 90.78 hectares and the area of land used by panels in the 2021 proposal is 62.93 hectares, whereas here it says 90 and 23. It reiterates my question earlier on that the areas that are being displayed on our screen here, the reduction in area, part of the reason that was a reason for objection was because of the huge impact on three public rights of way which run across the southern boundary, the eastern boundary and close by, and yet this current application, although it purports to be a third of the size, it still covers pretty much a very similar area compared to the previous application and I just don't understand how those numbers work out. I just wondered if you could, sorry, I have asked a question of Mr Hawkins. If you look at the figure for 23 hectares against the figure for 62 hectares, the 62 hectares would be the land encompassed by the fence line, the 23 hectares is the developed land which would be the net footprint of the equipment, the roads, the HV compound, the transformers and the footprint they take up which is a measure that's normally used in a planning application for a built environment like this. Right, are you satisfied with that answer? I hear the answer. Okay, that's the best we can hope for I think. Then we have a question from Councillor Carn. I come back again to the issue of power and capacity of the batteries. You said batteries have 40 megawatts, that's a power. Is that the power they're giving out? How much are they going to store and how much time? I mean there's a great use in me because sometimes only discharge or renewable energy which is variable in this generation into a very useful time when it's covering peaking but I want to know exactly how effective that will be because 40 megawatts tells me just what you can generate not how much you can store and how long it's going to last for. I think it's a difficult one Battery financial modelling is quite complex and what you might do is start off with 20 megawatts for two hours and then you may convert that at a later date to 40 megawatts for an hour and it all runs around whether you're doing frequency response or arbitrage or just playing the markets. It's a difficult thing to predict and what we're applying for planning permission for is essentially the number of containers rather than the amount of power. But the usefulness to us from a point of view is the extent to which you can actually provide electricity at the most useful time so it's useful to know that. So you're basically saying it's 40 megawatt hours that it stores or how much does it actually store? Yes, essentially 40 megawatt hours but it's 40 megawatts for one hour so you could use it for 20 megawatts for two hours. Councillor Cahn, do you note that answer? Yes, thank you. Right, I think that is thank you very much, not only for your presentation for your patience and for answering our questions in such detail and we will in a moment start to consider this we have one more speaker to hear. So thank you. We have no representation from the parish councils but I note that you'll see section 13, page 125. Dry Drakeon supports the application but they want to limit the development to the scale proposed by he'll take the same view. Children, there's no parish council, no comments received there. Broadly support the application. But in any case, I'm glad to say we have also the local member online who will now be able to tell us about local views. Councillor Nick Wright, again thank you for your patience and you know the rules. The floor is yours. Thank you Chairman and before I start can I declare a non-cunary interest in that I know the landowners and that I attended the open meeting that box with parish council through for the developers to speak. So let me note that before I start. I think this is a really difficult position for the planning committee. Like all these, there's a difficult balance here between the need for power and power security and the need for food and food security. The report deals very well with the power issues and we've heard a lot about that. I'm more concerned with the loss of agricultural land, 80 hectares, make no bones about this. This is taking 80 hectares out of agricultural production. We saw some pictures of the land which contrary to the landowners views showed some very good high quality crops on the land at the time they were photographed. We need to be aware that this land is best and most versatile of some of our most uncultural land. It's the best quality and it is the best quality grade 1, sorry grade 2 and grade 3 A and B for growing wheat on. It's particular importance. It's not grade 1 because that's vegetables and that sort of thing. This is some of the best land we have in South Wales. The reason this site is chosen is because the power line goes across the site and it doesn't cost so much to get the power to the grid, the national grid. We don't have to have this site because we have a national grid. We have a lot of land in this country of lower grades that could be used for this and the power brought to us by the national grid. Food security, I've said, is so important to us. Within a 50 mile radius of Cambridge we produce at least 50% of the wheat that's needed for the UK. We need to think in South Cams already. We've lost 600 hectares to the A14 upgrade. We're going to lose a lot more than that to the A428 upgrade and that's before we even think of the Oxford Cambridge Ark and the amount of land lost there. When you put house building on top of that you see the large amounts of agricultural land that we're consistently losing in the bread basket of this country. Land is a diminishing resource that we have and as I said before, this application is 80 hectares. We need to look at what that 80 hectares can produce and it is for, if you look at the average human consumption of wheat it's about £150 a year would be sufficient. So on my rough calculations I would say that we would be losing enough wheat to feed 10,500 people. So it's again this need, the balance between food and the need for energy. Also I would like to add that we have seen energy prices over the crisis months that we've had recently increased substantially but we've also seen food prices increased substantially and the price of wheat... That's all right, could you start to wrap up please? I'm getting there, I'm getting there but I'm aware you've been slightly generous to some of the others. I thought I'd have noticed. So the price of wheat has doubled since last harvest and that hasn't reached the food chain probably yet and the reason it's doubled is because it's in short supply. Russia and Ukraine produce 25% of the world's exportable wheat and we need to import 40% of bar food into this country because we can only produce 60% among our farming stock. So my concerns are the loss of our cultural land. There's nothing in this for the local community on offer apart from a vague promise but I would like to see something as the government are recommending for the local community. It's against national policy on this high quality land. It's in the green belt which is there to protect our cultural land and I would like the committee to take note of those comments. Thank you very much everyone. Right, thank you very much. We have of course some questions and if you could keep it brief because we appreciated who we are starting with Councillor Hawkins. It's another question. I'm sorry, I made a mistake. I had a thought that Councillor Wright was the local member. My sincere apologies, Councillor Hawkins is the local member. Do you want to start the debate and would you like to ask any questions of your neighbouring member? I'm the local member for Boxwood. Ah, you see. So we have two local members, we often have this. Did you want to ask any questions as well or we'll come to you as a local member in a minute. Can we just take questions to this local member then? Councillor Cun. Actually all I wanted to comment is to Felicitor Councillor Wright for attending who has been a long time member. This will be his last appearance at committee and I want to thank him for his service over the years. So Councillor Toomey Hawkins, would you like to kick off the debate as local member? Actually before you do that, can I just make a personal statement which is that I am aware that the consortium of which I'm a member does occasionally give advice to farmers on renewable energy issues. I'm not currently involved in that and indeed I don't think we have any projects underway and therefore I propose to carry on in the chair but I will not vote. So Councillor Toomey Hawkins. Thank you very much chair and through you. I just want to say yeah thank you to Councillor Nick Wright for his views and I appreciate his concerns about the amount of land production of weeds that might be lost but I'm coming to this from the opposite viewpoint and actually I have concerns about that. I will be supporting this because for me looking at the information that we've got the land that's been used for this is as I understand it about 5% of children farm estate really so it's not that big a loss. Now I'm not sure how the quality of the production is less than average with that.


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Okay, thanks for staying with us. Now it's time for a second hot topic and we just say the courage and drive to challenge for Guinness World Record. We're being joined by someone who is trying to do that, the delectable Clara Cheeser-Bakronberg, a media and social entrepreneur, CEO of CCK Ventures and Entertainment Ltd. Good morning and welcome to the program, Clara. Thank you. Good morning. Let's get to meet with this Clara. Tell us a little bit about yourself before we go into the meat of the matter. Well, like you said, my name is Clara Cheeser-Bakronberg. I'm an Nigerian born media and social entrepreneur. I live in Mavias, Spain. I used to live in Denmark and now moved to the sunny city of Costa del Sol. So more about me is that I've always been a TV talk show host. I have my own TV talk show, Women's Work Show, and I'm a producer as well. I have my own production company, creating content and creating commercials as well for other brands and companies as well here in Spain.   And it's always been a thing for me. I'm a mom, so that's a bit of a bit about me. But I'm from Anambra State, by the way. I wanted to ask that. Cheeser-Bakronberg is from Anambra State. Okay, now you're in Spain. That's good. But what gives you the drive as a person?  I mean, I'm always very keen about, I'm always curious about how do people get from point A to point B. This is, first of all, my favorite drive because when I see somebody that is successful, I always ask, like, how did you do that? How did you get from here to there? Because I recall when I was growing up in Anfra Street in Anicha, by the way, I would see, we were living in the face-me-face house. And then I would see the skyscrapers when they start building the foster rebuilding, rather not skyscrapers, but foster rebuilding. And I've always seen those people that live in that flat that have their own bathroom, do they have two heads that are not sharing bathrooms or things like that? Do they have two heads? So it's always been a question, like, how did you get to be able to live in that particular place where you have your own private bathroom? So from that movement, it becomes like, okay, how can I do that? So I'm always curious to ask, what's your story? What's your secret? What did you do? Can you teach me? So it's always the drive to be better. It's always the drive, the curiosity to learn from people. You know, I always aspire to be like, wow, did you do that? Maybe I too can do it.  Oh my God. When I see women who thrive, who do everything, like, I mean, who go on the right path to succeed, it blows my mind. Like, I'm very inspired. I'm applauding. I'm clapping. I'm a biggest woman, surely, that literally is like, this is me clapping for anybody who is going after their dream in the right way. So yes, people inspire me, their journey, their challenges, and just the, you know, the zeal to keep going regardless.   I think I am in a stage of gratitude. That's a good question you ask there, but I am feeling very grateful for grace, for opportunities, for things I'm able to do. But, you know, I want more. I'm hungry. Yes, of course. Okay. You want to, is it break Guinness World Record or just set a Guinness World Record, but you want to be in the books as the person who has interviewed the longest, I think 58 hours or so? No, I'm going for 55 hours. 55, okay, 55 hours. That's quite a number. So let's just begin with what gave you, what informed this? And like you, like I mentioned earlier, again, I'm always driving for more to be better, to push myself beyond my comfort zone, beyond my limit. And I remember over past years, when I was in Nigeria, I had the privilege to speak with Honorable Sen, Honorable Senator Natacha Akwati, and her story really blew me away and had tenacity. I watched her persist and I watched her worked hard and really go after what she wanted. For me, that's a success story, you know, like just go for it regardless.  How did you do that?  And he was like, okay, so what's this about? So why don't you do it if it's that intriguing to him? I was like, it's not my thing. But somehow a seed has been planted. And, you know, months past, somehow, somehow I start like, okay, maybe this is actually a thing that could be done. So that's how I got into researching, doing some due diligence. And yeah, I am. So what do you mean? Women like her and the others inspire me to be honest. And I give her flowers. She's a pioneer in this. I mean, when it comes to Nigeria, yes. What really do you intend to achieve with this? How is it going to make you better? Because you're craving for more always. So how is this going to be part of you and the world? I mean, okay, I need to correct something. Yes, I crave for more. However, again, I am in a state of gratitude. I always take a moment to say, gracias a Dios. Thank God for now. Inasmuch as I want more or and I want to inspire and empower people. So what do I intend to achieve with this is for me to be able to be in a place where the hunger to keep empowering other women. I will be able to do it. It will put me in the place where my voice is heard enough where I, you know, as an African, I'm gonna use this as an African black woman living in diaspora in Europe, diaspora is not as easy as you know, we see it back home for you to, you know, leave a landmark and say, I am capable. I am capable. This project, I can deliver it. So for me, this is a way to pave way for myself and for many others, especially those who are African African women, you know, living in diaspora or who intend to move to diaspora? Because next time the next person wants to do something, they know, Oh, they can't, they should somebody has paved the way for them. And this I mean, again, it's gonna be a great deal for my career. And for all the, you know, the dreams I have to empower and inspire as many people as possible. Because this is my part, the empowerment part to support the next woman. So it's gonna do a lot for me for people out if a lot of people out there and at the same time, especially African black women living in diaspora. Yes. Two days and seven hours is quite some time without rest, without food. I don't know. Let me not say without food. That's not fasting. You must have. No, no, no, no, I'm eating of course. I'll be eating and talking to you. Once you say Guinness World Records, I'm just like, okay, will she feeding? Will she be resting and all that? But you know, a very critical thing when you're talking about Guinness World Records is that whatever you're going to do has to matter. Especially, okay, for instance, if you have to cook, it wouldn't just be that you will you will boil water and you say, have you seen my boiled water? It's so nice. It has to be something that can be enjoyed by the next person. So what are some of the topics you will be addressing in this your interviews in the course of the two days and seven hours? Yes, that's a very good question. Because again, the audience has to be engaged and engaged and they want they should want to be part of it. We should wish I hope they will be. So how do I intend to drive the audience to be this? I always say that it's an akin to masterclass. See it as a masterclass that you are coming to take in to take in over 50 people, successful people across the globe, their success stories, their journey of becoming of how they have come to be. I'm talking about people who are shakers and breakers in their industries.  And for me, I believe that it again, it drives me to know people's journey. And I feel that in this modern day and time, where social media has been an appeal of, you know, so depending on the eye where you see it, I love social media. Don't get me wrong. But we are some people just get carried away with the finished work they see, not knowing that there's the journey, maybe the person you're comparing yourself to the 10 years has been a 10 years or over decades of sacrifice and hard work. So this is a masterclass for you to come and take in and learn that from point A, it takes XYZ to get to point C that you don't just jump. It's a process. It's just a process.  It's going to be inspiring. It's going to be empowering. So, so what are some of the people we're expecting? What are some of the people we're expecting in this masterclass? The likes of people that you know across the globe, it goes all the way from Nigeria, Uganda, US, because of the nighttime, daytime I tap into Europe and Nigeria and Africa. In the nighttime, we go to US and Canada and all that. So and what are the people who are the people you just have to engage and come and see from them. But then absolutely people watching against successful people in different sectors. Please engage on Clara from and platform and use the hashtag that we have you will see everyone being redone. Okay, for whoever you're going to interview, I'm sure that there's a plethora of people of that nature in the world, if not in the same locality even. So what informed your choice of particular people? Because if it is in the oil and gas industry, for instance, you want to interview someone, it must be something that marks out a particular person, even though there are so many of them in that industry. So what are some of the things that informed your selection of these people? Again, you have to you have to we did our duty to the gents, you know, we have to go through the person's profile and make sure that again, you know, you want again, this is a masterclass and if anyone wants to learn from it, it has to be story that, you know, a person whose story would inspire other people. So what are the criterias?  Exactly. That's what I mean. As long as you're not a criminal, you've not done anything discriminatory, you're not you're not you're not in anywhere, you know, working against humanity, humanity again. So it's all about making sure that these criteria success stories are aligning on the right path and everybody has a story but who what's your story and how can it inspire the next person. So we make sure we stick on the right path because hey, this is open for even young people and we want it to be right. Yes. This is quite a peculiar task. It's not like, okay, who pops the eyeballs more. That would be an individual thing that can be done within one minute and who skips the rope more. It can't be done in it shouldn't be done in days and all that but this one will require a lot. So are you collaborating with other people? Are you going solo with your partner who inspired it or who planted the seed? Let me say so. Oh no, no, no, I'm collaborating with I'm collaborating with other people. Absolutely. This is a team effort. It's not Clara Chisabakrumbak just breaking the world record. This is a team effort. It is you that is watching, that is engaging. Yes, it's collaboration, collaboration, sponsorship. This cannot be achieved alone by myself, no way. As you can see or can tell from production alone is massive. Then you now talk about location. I'm also working with the town hall here. The local, the mayor will be there. The Port of Annuance is one of the biggest harbour in Mabia, like it's the heart of Mabia. I'm collaborating with literally every business people that I can imagine to make this happen because it's absolutely impossible to do it by myself. So it's not just about me. I might be the one being named Clara Chisabakrumbak. However, it's a project for all of us and a lot of people. I am so grateful for everyone who have trusted in this vision and are telling along and people who also wants to come along. So you're welcome to join us. We might be fighting back home, but when we say this is in Naijabib doing this, we rally around Naijabib people.  Join me as I do this and that. So how can people join you? We've said something about it, but work us through again briefly how we can join you to make this a success story. We like our own. Whenever we're doing something and putting Nigeria in the spotlight, we like our own. So how do we join you? Yes, so I beg Nigerian people to join me. Join me. Join me. That's a home girl. That's a home girl. Join me. Say you can join me through internet and we get our own personal hashtag. Maybe use that. It's cckshogwr, Clara Chisabakrumbak, GWR. Go use them, use them online. As they talk, so that live stream that for internet, they happen. So you go watch them for YouTube, go to Women's Watch Show TV, and there they happen now. You go watch them for Instagram, you go see them for TikTok. Clara Chisabakrumbak, go watch and go tap out. And you know what? Make you the shareer. As you the shareer, make you the comment. As you the comment, may you just the shares. In fact, gather your friends, sit down, chop up on the watch distance. Again, a master class. So you know, go take this one alone. I beg. Now, all these places where you can see them. In fact, if you had, send me email. We go answer you immediately. Info at cckjwr.com. Now, so we did. Okay. We hear you. It's sweet, my belly. Say a broad lady. They talk like this. Okay. Okay, now, just to just to round off what we are doing now. It's the main thing is that we're talking about the courage and drive to challenge for Guinness World Record. Courage and drive are the key words. This is what makes a lot of people not to grow as much as they can because they don't have the courage, they don't have the drive. So we'd like you to just talk to, since you have passion for the women and maybe youths, just talk to the women and the youths about courage in a very brief moment that you can because our time is really up to talk about courage and drive and how it can get you to wherever you want to get. Absolutely. I can say that I can sing with this topic, but I can tell you that whatever you do, first of all, go with passion. I know that they say your passion cannot always pay your bills, which is true. I would like to you, however, go with the passion because that's the only way that you can go against all of us. That's the only way you wake up in the morning and your heart is still beating. I will tell you one thing. So many times I've tried to run away from those parts of really empowerment and inspiring and using success stories to inspire people, but I always find myself back again and again and again because, hey, you want to go back and make it realistic money and take care of your family. However, the passion keep calling and I tell you, pick up the courage and it will be hard to go back to that passion. Let your heart beat because this heart beats when you wake up in the money is the only drive that you use to get what you want. It will be tough, but your passion will see you through. So this is the courage that you need, your passion, your heart beat and it gets better, it gets better, I promise you it gets better. It is hard, but and it's scary. Wow, it's scary, but go for it. Go for it. Thank you very much Chisoba. Let me remain with Chisoba. Thank you so much for being a part of our program and we wish you luck in this drive to clinch this record. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. Welcome. We've been talking with Clara Chisoba Krumberg, a media and social entrepreneur, CEO of CCK Ventures and Entertainment Limited. She wants to get a Guinness World Record from the 8th of March. We're hoping that you're going to join her. From the 8th of March it would be 55 hours. Well, we'd like to rally around our own people. We'll do the same for her, I'm sure. But this is where we draw the curtain on today's production or today's edition of the program. Do join us again tomorrow for another edition. My name is Nyangu and I'll catch you. Have a lovely midweek.


Hey, John Crestani here, tech entrepreneur, sales and marketing expert. I'm going to be going over how you close a deal in sales. So really important thing. This is where the money, right? This is where the big money comes in if you close deals. And I'm going to be going over exactly how to do this using the BANT framework. B-A-N-T, buyer authority, need timeframe. And I'm also going to go over a few different closes such as the takeaway, as well as one of my best kept secrets. One of my best methods for doing sales and a framework so that the person can't say anything but yes, if they've reached the end of your sales pitch. This is a pretty exciting presentation, done a lot of sales in my time. I'm looking forward to helping you close more deals, make more money. Let's get into this video. Hey, John Crestani here, online marketer, tech entrepreneur. And my first job was actually doing sales. I was working in a boiler room with mostly guys. Our quota was minimum 100 calls a day. So every day I was pumping out 150 calls a day, right? I'm an overachiever.   If you're watching this video on your phone, portrait style, and you're sitting there scrolling through the comments, type in I got you. If I got you, flip the phone to landscape mode. Give it your full focus if you really want to learn this information the most. Type in I got you.  Let's get into this. So first off, buyer. Okay, this is the Bant framework. Once again, and you can search this online Bant. But what Bant is, buyer authority need timeframe. Why is this important? Well, these are the 4 main things you need to find out from somebody in order to close them. First off, you need to know does this person have the money, right? You know, I used to work in investment marketing. The company didn't want to do deals that were under $25,000. Or another way of phrasing that is they only wanted people who could move over at least $25,000 into an investment. So I needed to make sure that the people I was marketing to could spend more than that. If they couldn't spend more than that, it doesn't even matter. So if people don't have the money to spend on your product or service, it doesn't even matter if you're pitching them. If they want it or anything else, they just are disqualified immediately. So always qualify based on money. Another thing is authority. So you want to make sure that somebody has the authority to actually make a decision. Now, for many purchase decisions, we're talking about small beans. Now, if you're selling consumer items online like this hat, which is, you know, $25,000, then most people have the authority to purchase it. You know, all they need to do is have a credit card. Authority becomes an issue is if you're selling a business product or if you're selling a more expensive product, you need to make sure that you're selling to somebody who can actually sign on the dotted line, fill out their credit card information if they're interested. So expensive products, this also matters if you are marketing to a broad audience. So for instance, if I'm marketing people on YouTube, many of the people that are viewing my videos are under the age of 18. So they can't buy anything. Most of them don't have credit cards. If you are under the age of 18, let me know if you have a credit card in the comments. Type in, you know, your age and yes, if you have a credit card or your age and no. If you don't have a credit card, I'd be interested in knowing how many people under 18 have credit cards. But that's a real thing. Do you have the authority to buy? Next item is the need. Does the person actually need the product you are selling? Do they need it? Do they want it? They don't have any desire for whatever you're selling somebody. If you're in sales, oftentimes maybe you're talking to a gatekeeper type of person, right? First off, a gatekeeper doesn't have authority to make a buying decision. Maybe you're talking to some sort of employee. Maybe they're just wasting time.  And they don't actually care about purchasing your product or solution that you offer. So you always make sure that they have the need, the want, the desire to use your product. And if they don't, you have to create it. You have to either create that want or desire or you have to move on quickly. And oftentimes in sales, the best thing is to just move on quickly to somebody who does have the need. Now, the fourth factor is the T. And that means timeframe. Is the person interested in buying this now? Or is it just something that's interesting to them in the future? Because we want to earn commissions to close a sale. We need to make sure that the person is looking for our product, our solution now. And a good way to figure that out is simply ask the person when are you looking to buy this product? When are you looking to make this decision buy? If this is something that the person is saying, I'm really interested. I'm totally willing to buy your product, but it's just not the right time. You know, I'm going to do it by the end of the year. I'm going to do it a month from now. Either you haven't done your job of creating enough desire for that. Or you haven't shown them why they need it now. Now, once you've qualified people on all of these things, they are a buyer, check. They have the authority to buy, check. They have the need, want or desire check. And they're willing to do it in a reasonable timeframe. You are ready to go. Now, if the person still doesn't buy, there's a bunch of different closing techniques. You can Google it. You can Google the term closes, right? Sales closes. But I'm going to only go over one sales close right here. Which I believe is the most effective and the least scammy of them all. And it's just the takeaway. I don't like pressure tactics. But the point being, if somebody wants your product, you can just say, okay, maybe it's not a good fit for you. You aren't interested in doing this in the next month. I'm going to work with your competitor or something like that. Just take it away. Say, okay, sir, I'll let you figure it out. I found just when I was doing sales because I do marketing, I focus on marketing.  I'll just take away. What I love about takeaways is usually sorts the wheat from the shaft. It gets rid of the people who aren't actually interested in the product or who would be bad customers. But the people who are interested in being customers, it attracts them to you because they realize you are a figure of an abundance mindset. You don't need their business. And showing a customer that you don't need their business, that you want to find business just on your own. It actually makes them more attracted to you. So that's a great method. And the other sort of secret tactic that I'm going to go over that has helped me just do sales amazingly well. I call it the box. And the box is when you're doing sales is making sure you answer every single question and concern that the customer can possibly have before they even bring it up. So if the customer has anything other to say to you, then yes, it's a deal.  Now, how do we create a box where literally every single reason that a customer can think of is addressed? And the way we do that is we simply address every single objection that the customer can think of. Now, what are reasons why customers don't buy a product or service? Well, we might have, you know, time's not right. We might have customers saying it's too expensive. Down here, you know, we might have another objection that it takes too much time. And what's another objection why people might not buy a typical product or service? They might say they don't trust you. They don't know you well enough yet. So all of these objections and there could be many more objections in buying a product or service. But these are sort of broad objections that apply to anything somebody might purchase. You can find ways to address every single one of these objections if you've worked in an industry long enough. They don't trust you. How would you address that objection? Well, you can address that objection by a number of different things. You can block that objection off. You're building a little wall. Block that objection off by talking about your credibility. You can talk about your testimonial. So one thing I do, for instance, in my program is people might say, well, they don't know if the product actually works. They don't know if my training course is actually really good. And what I'll do is I'll actually just say, don't listen to me. If you don't trust me, that's fine. But trust the results and I show them testimonials of some of my students. For instance, just now, check out some of these testimonials of some of my students. That's pretty powerful, right? I have so many students at this point who have gone through my program and making money. It's almost a non-issue. And I've been featured on the news, on Forbes, on Fast Company. I'm a credible person. But again, people don't know that if they've never been exposed to you. Now, if this is your first time being exposed to me, make sure you click the subscribe button, hit the notification bell so you can be aware of future videos. All I talk about is sales and marketing on this channel. Now, another objection you might get for many products is that it's too expensive. And if people are saying that your product is too expensive, then they likely don't know about the other more expensive ways of solving that problem. An example might be for a weight loss pill, right? There are a lot of natural weight loss remedies that work very well. But the public doesn't know about them too well. Most of the public thinks that getting surgery, liposuction or some sort of lap band or some sort of thing like that, which is very expensive, hundreds or thousands of dollars is a better solution. You can combat this by giving people evidence that your product is actually very cheap. So just say, hey, my product may cost $100. But if you were to get liposuction surgery, that costs $10,000. Or you could say my product costs $100. But if you were to actually go to a gym and hire a personal trainer, you're going to be spending $200 a month, which is thousands of dollars a year. So you give people comparisons and you say, instead of spending $200 a month, just spend $100 with my company. You need to give people reasons to show them to combat whatever their objections are. Too expensive, give people examples of why your products not expensive. Compare it to the competition. Compare it to other solutions that are more expensive to show people. So as you see, we're starting to build a box here. Now, let's go on. So we could talk about the timings not right. You know, whatever product or service you're selling, you can give evidence for why the timing is right. And if people think it takes too much time to use your product or service, once again, you build a box and you show them why the time is right now. And I always tell people for my product, which is my training course, if you want to do affiliate marketing, you're saying, I'm too late, affiliate marketing's been around for 20 years now. I got in, you know, eight years ago full-time, right? I was late to the party. But the best time to start is now. Some people compare it to the gold rush. It's not like the gold rush. The gold rush, there's a finite amount of money in the earth and you have to be the first one to get it out. This is more like the invention of electricity. Electricity was invented 100 years ago and companies are still using electricity, right? All new companies use electricity now. Isn't that interesting, right?  How are they able to compete? Because it just takes over everything. Electricity is a foundational element for business now and so is the internet. And the best time to get in the internet is right now today. It's only going up, it's only gonna get harder. You have so many advantages right now. So, get started with affiliate marketing, subscribe to this channel, join these communities. If you're ready, type in I'm ready in the comments below and join our community. We have a Discord channel now so you can like chat with other people. We have a subreddit and we have a Facebook group because I get about a two million messages every single day from people asking me to mentor them or like help them or like hold their hand and hug them and tell them like, they're like a beautiful little snowflake of a human being. And you know what? I can't respond to two million people every day. So that's why we created communities where we can all help each other learn and grow, watch my videos, subscribe to my channel and talk to you soon.


if it's in mixed case and hope in PGP if it's all lowercase. So I was told I needed to have something about me so if you don't know who I am I'm the guy giving the talk. And apparently I started this back in March 2012 because I wanted to use OpenPGP with TLS and it seemed like it would be easiest to do both client and server in Haskell and I was not aware of any options other than one set of findings to GPG me and GPG me was suboptimal for various reasons and even though there's there's now a better set of bindings for GPG me it's it's still got the limitations of GPG me itself and I think it's still useful to have a separate implementation so in 2011 two different people independently started writing OpenPGP implementations one of whom actually wanted to do the same stuff with RFC 6.091 and that's that's how we found out about our competing projects and we've made a slight effort to merge our code bases but it's proven to be difficult for various reasons and basically we now just share a test suite and it's possible that will be improved in future so it's really difficult to have a program make use of OpenPGP because you either have to shell out to GNU PG itself or you use GPG me which is a library that shells out to GNU PG with a different API and I think that's why there's like 15 different Python libraries for OpenPGP and only two of them use GPG me and the rest call GPG directly so one of the problems or what one of the frequent complaints about GNU PG is that it's difficult to use so a library that's not difficult to use would theoretically be useful for making easier to use interfaces and of course I enjoy threads on Debian project about key size and hash algorithms and having a library to facilitate that is it's pretty great so there are three components in the suite. OpenPGP and OpenPGP ASCII armor are libraries and OpenPGP tools are the tools they're available from Hackage, Zackage and Debian and nowhere else that I'm aware of. OpenPGP ASCII armor is pretty boring it's the ASCII armor codec it's been unchanged since sometime in 2012 I think and it is I think the only Haskell implementation everybody else just uses it and even though it could be improved nobody has pushed for it to be changed so maybe that will happen in future. HOpenPGP is more interesting it does the rest of RFC 4880 compression signatures it's it's kind of a beast it's not entirely portable because it uses Haskell features that are not present on all of Debian's architectures and the API keeps changing and is going to keep changing for the foreseeable future. So yesterday Zack asked me if I was going into the internals and I said I wasn't because I hadn't thought of a good way to do that but since this is the functional programming track and it's about Haskell I'm now going to show you how some of this works so this is a data type called TK. TK stands for transferable key it represents a transferable public or secret key as defined by RFC 4880 and the it mostly mirrors the binary structure of such a series of packets which is the public or secret key represented by the pair on top any number of replication signatures any number of UIDs and their corresponding certifications any number of user attribute sets and their corresponding certifications and any sub keys so probably some of these should be non-empty lists instead of lists the brackets represent lists of whatever types inside and the parentheses and commas represent tuples which in this case are all pairs so we could with the type system actually say that some of these are not allowed to be empty they need at least one element so at some point in the future I'll probably do that for correctness sake and the last line of the the data declaration which is in record syntax is for automatically deriving instances of type classes so the eck and show type classes allow you to compare for equality and convert to string respectively and GHC will derive those automatically if it knows how and in this case it does because each of the types contained within this structure also have the corresponding instances but for ORD which is a class that allows you to see whether something is less than greater than or equal we're defining this by hand and so we're saying that a transformable key gets ordered solely on the basis of the contents of the public or secret key so that may not be the best idea but that's what's happening now did any of the non-haskelers understand any of that okay so we're also defining an instance for indexable which is how I've chosen to represent key rings for now so we make an indexable set of all the keys you insert and then we have an index for the UIDs the 20 octet fingerprints the 8 octet key IDs and the entire public key payload itself which is probably the cause of DKG's laptop heating up and spinning for 90 minutes at a time but we can work on that later and then this is the semi-group instance this is a semi-group is a set with an associative binary operator for a long time I wanted to make a monoid but I couldn't figure out how to do the identity element so I made a semi-group instead so this says how to basically merge two keys so if you have key A and key B we're gonna take the public or secret key from key A and we're just gonna throw away the that part from key B and then for the revocations UIDs UIDs and subkeys we're just gonna merge them together with the functions at the bottom in the work laws there and so right so that's just an abbreviation for no sort of pen we need more conspiracy theories it's true so the this this is gonna be theoretically useful for if somebody wants to build the tool to fetch keys from a key server and then just merge the new signatures onto an existing key or something like that and so the very first thing I had to do after defining a bunch of types was serialization so actually the serialization was less important than the parsing part which is the next slide but so this expresses how to write out a public key payload which is most of the public key to a byte string and so on on top we have a v3 key so it outputs the octet 3 to show that it's v3 key and then it has a big endian creation time and the v3 expiration and the public key algorithm and the public key itself and the reason we do put pka a instead of more specialized function is that there is a put instance for a public key algorithms already and so we can just use that and on the bottom it's a v4 key and we're just throwing away the v3 expiration field because it's not relevant so that helps produce a byte string from a key and this is the other direction this will parse a public key payload so this is using the serial library and if the binary library continues to improve it might be good to switch to that instead so this yes I'm curious about why you have the public key algorithm separate from the public key object given that it seems like the public key object could know its own algorithm or would that so the way the the the types are so somewhat of a rats nest the you're as what are you asking is I'm not I'm not a Haskell programmer okay how about we come back to that at the end or something so this is the inverse operation we're grabbing an octet to find out the version then we're grabbing the creation time and then depending on the value of the version we either read a v3 or v4 key I had to change it to accept a version of 2 because there's all kinds of weird things on the key servers and I was trying to parse as much of it as possible and there are a lot of keys with that value and they seem to be exactly like v3 keys but I'm not sure so that might be something to figure out later and at the end it it's gonna come back with either a v3 or a v4 key or or fail entirely because it's a new or invalid key format so now we segue into the command line tools themselves which some of you have been using and maybe of more general interest so HKT is the H open PGP key ring tool and right now you can export keys list them and then you can also graph certifications and find paths between keys this is something DAV asked me about at Hope and it was easier than I thought to implement so an example of HKT is we can take the debbing key ring and list all keys with a creation time I greater than January 1st of this year so you can see all the keys in the debbing key ring that were created this year so there's two different ways to specify keys with this tool well you can either do a long key ID full fingerprint a user ID substring or a filter expression which is this basically a DSL I wrote that needs to be totally overhauled but lets you do things like a numeric compare on the timestamp so probably the the most popular tool right now is Hokie which has one sub command which is linked and that aims to let you know how you're doing with regard to the open PGP best practices document published by rise up so you can either use HKT to export a key and pipe it to Hokie or you can use GPG it takes a transferable key in RFC 4880 format in in open PGP packets so any compliant tool that exports a key in that format can be used as a source and you can get output with with pretty colors or you can get it in JSON or YAML if you change the output format and so if you read any of the messages on Debian project where I posted some statistics that came from the JSON output and post processing with the JQ so this example will export all RSA keys greater than 8k from the Debian key ring which I think is just one or two one and complain about how his expiration date is too far in the future so now there's hot which is meant to operate on either ASCII armor or individual open PGP packets so there's a filtering here that operates without context so and the syntax is also suboptimal for historical reasons that should be fixed so if we do the same export again to get the person with the big key and we pipe it to hot filter we have to specify filters for pub keys signatures and other packets which is really not ideal but if you don't do that it's gonna just let them all through and in this example I want only signature packets that are positive certifications and I want to dump them to the screen so this this also probably needs an overhaul so you can specify that filter without three different command-line switches so I talked briefly about the graphing done by HKT so this is the KSP key ring built by an e-ball prior to the conference and you can't really see what's going on here but so the the graph command outputs a file in or not a fallen outputs dot or I don't I don't really know the difference between dot and graph is formats so perhaps they're the same but okay all right so it outputs something that can be rendered by dot and then you can convert it into an image and so this is a small key ring if you try to do this on the debbing key ring or your personal key ring you're gonna be in a lot of pain but we might be able to optimize that so the other thing is that this is purely a self-contained operation it's verifying signatures on this key ring from this key ring so anybody not in the cure the KSP West is not gonna be used as a connector so this this is all pretty self-connected and then this stuff up here well actually I so I had to zoom in here so you could see so this is this is each arrow represents a certification that's verified and valid according to the the logic we're currently using which may be flawed and so number 23 up there is unevolves I forget which key but one of him and I guess that should be pretty self-explanatory and yes yes this specific image not this one the full image I mean you could you could generate it yourself what versions of hope and PGT tools are your examples drawing from what they were in diversions that are Jesse so unfortunately just yes so these these are from the Jesse version I'm using an unreleased version for pathfinding a little bit later because I am apparently a hypocrite and can't release early and release often so so that's that's nice healthy connections and then the upper right is people who are in either solo or pairs and you can see that the pairs on the right side are bidirectionally certified and on the left they're just one way so you can also find paths in this key ring and it uses a dykstra path finding algorithm to determine the shortest paths and so the there were four paths that were seven hops and they all start with key 118 which in this case is one of each one's keys and you can see the path from him to the four people on the right so and for some reason a lot tech lets me do unicode characters for for some things and not for others so this has been sanitized a little question so could you use this to figure out which the most advantageous mutual key signings yes sorry dad asked that if you could use this to see what the most advantageous key signings would be and I think so and I've actually been specifically specifically targeting people here if they are at maximum hops for me you can also use it to find your path to someone else for the the usual reasons I guess so you can also use the same output to see the the nexus is of pads and so this is as of this morning which all of these numbers have gone up since the beginning of the conference and actually T marble and tumbleweed at switched places just this morning so it's a race what are those numbers mean yet so the number on the left is the it's an ID number it's the same as in the previous slides it's just a arbitrary ID after whatever ordering was done to make the graph and it it's static within this hearing and then the right side is how many of the paths from everybody or from each person to each other person contained that key as a middle hop so so that there are 592 paths from eat someone to someone else that go through all tag shortest pads or just pads in general shortest paths how does it deal with equally equal length pads does count twice it is repeat Daniel asked how it deals with two equally long paths and I believe it should give you both but I am not sure so these should look a little more familiar if you read Devin project so there were a hundred twenty three K's in the KSP key ring one of them's DSA two of them are 8k one of them 16k two of them have what rise up considers a weak cash with a higher preference on the hash preferences sub packet and there's there's still controversy about expiration times but according to the guidelines this is how they stack up and this is about user IDs and user attributes and someone is using rife MD 160 for self sigs and most people are not and this is more than there are keys is that because it's per self-sig on each this is as well as usually yes this is each each valid certification for each UID or UIT so if you have not not for some use yes not for some use so there's that and so with the with the tools you can also do what if scenarios so the top is the strong connectivity of the KSP key ring on August 21st and so there's 87 people in a strong set and two pairs which I think are probably just one person each with two keys that are cross-signed but might not be and if you filter out all ripe MD 160 and sha one signatures that strong set drops down to 69 keys so you can see how the web of trust might be strengthened or weakened by various operations and so over the conference I think each of those top numbers has gone up by about eight and the one of one of the two clusters has disappeared entirely so we're we're gaining strong connectivity throughout the the conference so all right so there's there's someone working on using the H open PGP and open PGP ask your armor libraries in the hackage server and cabal I don't know how that'll turn out but there's there's a branch you can look at it if you're interested I would like to see more yes Eric oh so hackage is a software distribution system for Haskell it's like c-pan or the cheese shop or whatever Ruby has and then cabal is the tool equivalent to pip or gem or c-pan or what have you to fetch and build and install so I'd like to to see further work trying to reduce duplicated effort with the open PGP library Daniel has asked for some sort of key cannot localizer so keys can be dipped more easily the API needs improvements we have the potential for other language bindings because Haskell has a bidirectional foreign function interface so we can come up with a C API for the Haskell library and then any other language with a C API FFI can theoretically bind to H open PGP through that the hard part I believe will be coming up with APIs that make sense so if anybody has any ideas about that that'd be great people want to make GUIs I'd be happy about that key ring operations are a pain so if somebody can come up with a better way to store keys on disk so that they're easily no okay yes so we were playing around with the PGPG 2.1 this week and it's got a new disk format called keybox which I'm guessing this is your tool doesn't support yet yeah that's right I looked at keybox a little and I forget well I forget the details but it seemed like it wouldn't help but maybe I misunderstood it the well so so yeah yeah yeah so the difficulty is the performance problem I'm alluding to is with indexing a whole bunch of keys and then retrieving them from wherever they're indexed so another idea Daniel had was validating key server that would only accept valid keys and signatures through cryptographic verification just just accept SKS which will then screw it up right right so yes there there are problems if you want to gossip with the SKS protocol but for background none of the public key servers do any cryptographic verification of keys at all no they don't I actually run one of the SKS key servers on the network yep and none of them do cryptographic verification so the idea here is that maybe we could think about setting up key servers that did that and then they would not actually probably gossip with SKS because they wouldn't have they wouldn't be able to accept some of the things that are on the SKS key servers right so so I do very limited hash verification in my key server not before validating the signature but making sure that the there's a two bytes which basically say the hash function that then you can use to say yes this hash is actually valid and throw away a signature that is obviously not the right one and particularly that's useful for the subkey damage that PKS used to do so it's why I've got there but my main issue with doing validating key servers is how do you then form a key server network where the keys are different on different key servers and that's already causing me problems as someone running a known SKS key server if you talk loudly the room like should pick up and notice you didn't talk about implementing a GPG compatible interface on the previous slide are you interested in doing that is that something that might happen I say this particularly because you for hypothetically it would be good if something like the GPG extensions for Thunderbird would use open PGP instead so my focus thus far has been to try to do things that GPG can't do or doesn't do well I have no objection to people trying to write a GPG clone but for now it's it's more interesting for me to have a tool that can do something I can't do Joey yeah have you looked into how well you handle encryption and decryption right to some extent yeah I mean have you looked at are there incompatibilities I don't know how good a standard open PGP is standards go so so far so the there's a there's a test suite which needs needs more tests but much of the data in the test suite has been produced by canoe PG and then there's stuff pulled off the key servers so I'm there's there's a lot of sanity checking against the real-world data I forgot the original questions I was wondering you're clearly using it a lot for key management analysis but what about actually using it to encrypt and involve yeah other other than test cases I haven't really done that so there was a little while I was working on secret key decryption because I wanted to use a stronger cipher for my secret key and I thought I couldn't redo a cipher with GPG but then it turned out I could so so the decryption support is there but not the re-encryption and for mostly for fear reasons I haven't really been doing anything that's not read only so if you if you want to modify files you have to redirect to to another file and do it yourself so yeah if anyone would like to help contribute there's some ideas and I guess we can we can continue with questions now or if anyone wants me to demo something maybe I could try that Micah yes sir can you show how you generated that set of keys that would make it would be ideal to track down inside here yep if I can figure out X-Rander No. No. All right. Yeah. All right. That's the stop. OK. So you wanted the paths. The paths that you were using to track down the people to sign. OK. So that's the command I used. And so find paths, keyring. So there's three key selection things we're doing. The first is what subset of the keyring to use for pathfinding. And then the next one is which keys to use as a starting point and then which keys to use as an ending point. So if we do any, any, any, we're using the entire keyring and finding paths from every person to every other person. But if you were just interested in your own key to somewhere else, you could, to slow that down. And this takes like a couple minutes. So I'm not going to do it again. Can you do it from your key as a starting point? Yeah. So are these slower still foot? Yeah. It's going to be quicker for me to just use right now. So which one of those any do you put go the second one? But there's a problem with the syntax right now that won't let you do that. Does the any, any, any work with what's out there and Jesse now? No, this is, you can see the first word is I'm using a but if you all nag me, I will upload. Please do it. Not right now. You're live. Can you use the PGP to sign your changes file and just upload it right now? No. So, um, actually, so, okay, so I should show you the output first. So this makes sense. Okay. So and the left. Um, gee. Wow. That's engineering. Okay. So, uh, so each line is a tuple of so the, the first number before the comma is the length of the path. This is just so I could sort. And then after the comma is a list of the shortest path, um, the shortest path as, as determined. So, um, so the first line is one to one, which is zero hops because it's self signed. And then the second one is from one to two, which is achieved by traversing key number five. And then so on and so forth. And then at the bottom of the file, there's a mapping of the key number to the fingerprint. So you have some idea who those people might be. Um, and obviously this could be made a lot more user friendly if you wanted. Um, so if you grip. So I'm number six. Um, so if you grep for any path that starts with six or ends with six, uh, you're going to get. Thank you. So, uh, so now I have all the paths from me or to me, uh, ordered by hops. So, uh, at the bottom, uh, you can see that, uh, Gua Yixuan and I are, uh, furthest from each other. Um, and then some other people are, are slightly closer. And so if you, if you want to find who's farthest from you, that's how you do it. But currently there's no way for me to do it or everybody leaves because this is not yet committed. Um, it's committed. You can build it yourself. You can, you, the current version will give you those numbers. Uh, it won't give you the length and it won't give you the finger print. So, um, yes and no. If you can figure out who those people are, you can do it. Or actually the, the changes in the get repose. So you can, you can build it yourself instead of waiting for me to upload the package. Anything else? The, the, the source code is, is in git and the packaging is in darks. That's, that's true. This is a bit... Just to keep us on our toes. Sadly, Yohim, uh, went home. Uh, or you could troll him about that right now. But yeah, everything we package in the, uh, Debian Haskell Group is, that has the Debian directory in darks. Almost everything. Eric. Are there PHP bindings? Uh, not yet, but I'm aware of, uh... Anyway, else? Thanks for working on this, man. Yeah, thank you. Yeah! Okay, well then, thank you.