Matt Tergert will be here presenting a talk about Phosology and Debian. Matt Tergert is a developer, an upstream developer of Phosology and also the package maintainer in Debian. And he works as assistant administrator in RiseUp, doesn't it? Please welcome Matt Tergert. Can you hear me yet? There we go, great. First I would like a volunteer to someone please give me the name of a small package that you maintain. We're going to use it for a demonstration in a minute. What's the name? Okay, it doesn't have too many directories or files. It's not very big. Okay. I think this will be okay. So bear with me a minute here. I'm just going to get the source and upload it. Okay, sorry for the delay. Now that's processing and we'll take a look at it in a few minutes. As was said, my name is Matt Tergert. I work for RiseUp Networks and I also work on the upstream Phosology project and then the Phosology maintainer. So about 10 years ago, HP had a problem. They had teams of engineers that were working on building devices and they wanted to use Phos software to be able to derive those devices. They also had people working on software products that wanted to use Phos libraries. And also lots of people including a lot of us in this room were asking them to ship Linux distributions because we wanted to be able to run Linux on their hardware. However, they had a problem. Sorry, technical difficulties here. I have to get my notes. At the time, HP was a $40 billion company and when you're that large, you have special problems that other people don't have. When you're that large, you're quite a very large target for lawsuits. The product teams at HP wanted to ship Phos software, but HP's lawyers were really afraid of shipping anything that might cause them liability. So finally, there was lots of debate among the engineers and the product teams wanting to ship things. The lawyers agreed if the software that was being shipped could be scanned in some way and they could assess the risks of what risks this was going to present for the company and then they could sign off on those risks. They would allow it. So there was work started on a scanner to begin scanning for risks. Okay, so how do you determine the risks? HP was actually okay with shipping copy left, you know, GPL type code. They just wanted to know exactly when they were doing it and make sure that they were ready to fulfill the source obligations and other aspects of licenses. What they didn't want was to accidentally ship some GPL code and have that come out and, you know, it would be a PR disaster, but then also they may have to begin shipping source or something they didn't want to. So in order to help determine these things, work was started on a tool that would automate the process of scanning software to look for these problems. The tool would look through the software, report things that the lawyers didn't like and flag them for the lawyers to look at. Now depending on the product that they were talking about within HP, they might be scanning source code that was used to generate a firmware image that was going to go on some hardware device or they might be scanning a package piece of VOS software that was a library they were going to use in some application. Or the biggest thing is they might be scanning an ISO image of a Linux distribution that they intended to ship on their hardware. This is the ISO images of distributions that really scared the lawyers the most because there's so many packages they were really worried that somewhere hidden down in the inside of this Linux distribution was going to be some license that told them they had to give away HP proprietary technology or something like that. So they were terrified of that idea. Okay, so the first thing the tool had to be able to do was recursively drill down through whatever it was given and pick it apart at the lowest level. In the case of a Linux distribution you normally start with an ISO image that you would be giving to someone and then you start unpacking that and inside that you have a whole directory hierarchy and you have files that are compressed and zipped and tarred up and B zipped and 7 zipped and every possible kind of format you can think of. This tool needs to be able to find these things.  So the scanning evolved over time based on the requirements from the lawyers. They would have things that they knew about that they wanted to make sure that the company wouldn't do.  So it would scan through everything and at the end it would produce a PDF document that could be given to the lawyers and then they could review any problems that it found. So this fulfilled what the lawyers wanted which was to be able to review everything and so HP using this process began to ship for software. But now there was another problem. It was kind of a mess. When adding new things to look for and adding support for new file types, that sort of thing, first of all you had to rerun the entire analysis to get a new report because it was pretty stupid about how it just scanned through things and did it report as it went. And the code was really just this huge monolithic mess that was primarily written by one person and only that person knew how to understand it. So it had worked well and it let HP ship file software for quite a while but it was time to redesign. So work was started on a new design. The various different functions that existed in the previous tool were split into different components. Before the unpacker used to unpack things on every run. Instead the decision was made. It would unpack things and put them into a file repository. The things that did the scanning would be split out into a pluggable architecture and we refer to those as agents and then you can plug in whatever kind of scans you want. It's very modular. The agents after they scan the files produce results that they put into a database. There's a scheduler that kind of sits in the middle of everything and controls how everything runs and then there's a couple different user interfaces. Primarily a web interface is the main way you interact with it but there's also some command line tools to help you automate doing uploads. And some examples of agents. I mentioned the primary reason the tool was written originally was to fulfill the legal obligations. And so a couple of the agents there's a license scanning agent. There's actually several different types of license scanning agents now. The scan and look for license text and boiler plates and source files and that sort of thing. There's also a separate agent that looks explicitly for copyright declarations. Thank you. Another interesting one that we have is a metadata agent that knows about metadata contained in files and so when it encounters files it knows about like for example JPEGs have metadata tags and then it can scan those and make those available in the database which is kind of interesting because you know sometimes somebody might put some text in there like this JPEG is copyright so and so and the license under these terms. That's something that the software agents would like to be able to determine. So I'd like to talk in particular about this unpacking thing we talked about a minute ago and in particular talking about unpacking Debian software packages. We're all pretty familiar with the basic upstream software package and of course there's new source package formats but so originally when the unpacker tool was set up if it encountered a Debian source package within an ISO or within a directory that you had uploaded it would run the scan on the files in the source package and that's good. It would encounter the RIDG-TAR-GZ and it would uncompress and it would untar it and it would go through all that and it would run its scans on there. It would also encounter the DiffGZ and unzip it and look at that. But one thing to think about is suppose you have somewhere in the RIDG-TAR-Z you have a license declaration that says this is GPL v2 and say in the diff you have a patch that applies to that that says oh yeah we're going to adjust that and say no it's not GPL v2 it's GPL v2 or later. Or we're going to put the word not somewhere in the middle of the license that's going to totally negate what it means or we're going to change copyright dates or in terms of other agents that you might do scanning with you might patch C files and say you have an agent that's scanning for a particular software vulnerability and now in the Debian Diff you just added interval vulnerability before it wouldn't find that. So just recently the Unpacker was extended to know about Debian source packages and can treat them as a container and so when it encounters a DSC file it looks to make sure the other things are there does the unpack of the source and then it scans the unpacked Debian source package which is pretty nice. So I mentioned I'm the Phosology Maintainer in Debian and it's in unstable right now I think one most recent uploads is about to move into testing. If you want to play with Phosology it's just a matter of app get install Phosology once it's installed it sets up most things on its own. The only thing it doesn't do is you need to set up the Apache configuration there's examples in the package but really that's kind of a site specific thing so we leave that to the user to set up. Okay so here's this picture again of the new structure. One of the neat things about the way Phosology is structured when this rewrite was done was we knew that potentially in scanning large amounts of software and having things that are very computation intensive that you might actually want to run some of these things on separate machines and so everything was designed from the ground up to allow these things to be on separate machines and likewise when I packaged the Debian package I built it such that individual components could go on separate machines and that would work just fine so if you app get install Phosology that's actually a meta package that pulls on everything you need to make it run on one system but if you want and you have the need to scan lots of software or run lots of computational intensive agents you can do things like have a whole cluster of machines running as agents one separate database machine, have a separate machine running say the scheduler and the user interface. The other nice thing is that the way everything communicates is over SSH and just uses the normal file system for the repository so for example we use NFS for the file repository. So if you do want to set something up in a cluster situation in the readme.debian file there's instructions in there about how to go about doing that. So I mentioned some of the existing agents, the license agent, the copyright agent that sort of thing but now that this is written as a generic framework pretty much anything that you could use to scan software you can write an agent for that would plug into Phosology and so we've had a lot of ideas of other things that we could do. Some of the biggest users of Phosology so far are people that are producing firmware for embedded devices and they're using Linux and they need to make sure that they know about the licenses so they were, you know, most people are attracted because of the license scanning right now but really this could be used for doing any sort of software analysis and some of the things that we thought of in particular would also be interesting to the same people that are doing embedded systems one that seems to pop up in the news from time to time as you often hear about people shipping some sort of device that makes it out the door with a virus on it so you have this new embedded device and people plug it into their home computer or, you know, whatever it is and it ends up infecting things. There's no reason you couldn't take, you know, say the clam antivirus tool and write an agent that went around it and then before people ship software as part of their quality assurance process they could run Phosology on it with all about licenses, we could do scans like search for viruses search for, I guess you could run spam assassin and search for spams if there's any spam in their source code or something like that but likewise you could run all sorts of software analysis tools, you could run, you know, C tools like Lint or compiler preprocessors that look for compiler warnings or all sorts of things and there's no reason you couldn't scan binaries as well I mean we can upload things to Phosology and generally we're wanting to upload source code but it doesn't have to be source code you could upload binaries and if you had something that was able to analyze binaries and look for particular sets of instructions I guess that you wouldn't want I could flag those as well so one of the things I want to talk about in this talk is how we can use Phosology and Debian in particular and I've thought of, you know, we talked a little bit about how Phosology is able to unpack Debian's source packages now which is nice but we could probably write all sorts of agents that would do Debian specific kind of scanning the first couple that I thought of is we could write a Lintian agent that when people upload things if you encountered a Debian package you say great send it off to Lintian, get the results back, put them in the database make those results available through the user interface we could also do PU parts, there's a bunch of other things right now I have been scanning squeeze source DVDs, currently the CD image team produces weekly updates of squeeze DVDs and I've been taking those and uploading them to Phosology and doing the scanning and making the results available and I'll show you that in a few minutes here but potentially there's lots of other things we could do, one thing that might be kind of interesting the FTP master team is eventually if we get this automated well enough it would be kind of nice if when things get stuck in the new queue they could automatically be uploaded to Phosology and then the FTP master team would be able to go and scan the results and look and see if there's any license problems or weird copyright issues or any other kind of quality issues that whatever agents we have installed determine the other thing that would be kind of nice to be able to do in addition to just doing it for new packages is we should be able to audit the entire archive for particular licenses and copyrights that we're interested in currently we have the copyright file on Debian packages that is kind of a pseudo standard format where you indicate copyrights and licenses I think there's been some people talking about making that a more standard format that would be machine readable, eventually we could do something like have Phosology do a scan, compare with what's already listed in the source package and report any differences and so the maintainer may have put stuff in a copyright file that says here's what licenses this package is under but if Phosology finds something hidden in one of the files way down it would be nice to know about that I also wanted to comment that there's a couple other projects within Debian that are doing very Phosology like things like what's it called UDD, ultimate Debian database or something like that and trying to integrate those things and Phosology isn't necessarily a replacement for that it could probably eventually be made to do things but it's designed at kind of a higher level it's not Debian specific so I think some of those other projects are nice in that because they're Debian specific they can present information in a more Debian specific way so just about two weeks ago I set up Phosology.Debian.Net and this is a Phosology install that we can use to analyze things and previous to this I had been running some of this analysis on one of the upstream installs but this is one that specifically that we can use for Debian and I'd like to eventually automate and have things get scanned there on a regular basis in a minute here I'll take a look at that I can find my web browser hopefully our analysis from earlier has completed okay so this is the Phosology user interface and this is what it looks like when you're logged in this is kind of the main landing page if you want to upload files I mentioned there's a command line user interface but you can also go to this upload directory and you can upload it via your web browser you can give it a URL that it can pull it from or you can give it a local path on the server that it can grab things from which is pretty nice when you're doing DVD sized ISOs as you don't want to try and upload those via your web browser after you've done the upload there is a job queue let's go see let's go see if our job that we uploaded earlier is there time out so here's a job that I ran earlier we'll get the whole I bet you our job earlier already finished this is a Debian DVD that's still running there it is okay so a lot of second I'll go back and look it looks like everything finished on that job so now we can click on it it'll take us to the browse section and we see we have this directory and I uploaded the source package and here's the the different files so now within the UI you can drill down within these files and start looking for things by default you're just looking at the directory view up here you can turn on different features depending on what you want to be looking for so what we'll go ahead and do is we'll click on there and we're in there and we'll turn on the license scan there's two currently two license scanning agents one's called NOMOS the other is called Bsam was the original one and it's very thorough but it's kind of slow it's based on some algorithms that were used for matching DNA sequence sequences and I think it's a some algorithm from the 80s or something and people have figured out some faster things since then but this is the one that we had up and was the primary one up until the most recent release okay so we clicked on that and now what it's doing is it's showing us okay in this directory I found these are all the different licenses that I found and the count of what I found and then we can as we drill down through the through the directories it will start you know showing us fewer amounts here we can also do things like for example let's do GPIL of exception we'll click on show there that will give us a list of all the licenses of that category and what files they're in we can also say see if I remember how to do this right if you click on the license name it will highlight it in the category over here in which files it's in we can also click on view to view the file and now we have the file down below us and you'll see that it's highlighted here with the bits that it found so there's query and FSF license there there's a GPL down there so that's the BSAM scanning NOMOS is very similar we'll do copyright as well here's a copyright scan the copyright scan there's a disclaimer here right now the person that wrote this agent put this in here but basically said there's a lot of false positives right now but it was determined still to be useful enough to be included you know so it looks for these sorts of strings and some in particular that it knows might show up that have a certain set of dates that you might be interested in and it's very similar to the other one you can click on it it will take you to the file and show you where that was one other thing I hadn't had a chance to talk about yet is this concept of a bucket browser that's a new feature that was added in the most recent release so we have a couple license scanners and they know about lots of different licenses so what the bucket browser allows you to do is it allows you to sort those licenses into categories that you care about and so for example we could make a OK for Debian category and a not OK for Debian category and we could put the licenses into that and then that makes it really easy if we upload a Debian source DVD and run the scan we can just say show me everything that's not OK for Debian and it will highlight and pop everything out and show us if there's anything in there I would like to do this as far as I know there doesn't exist a canonical list of which licenses are OK and which licenses aren't there's something in the wiki but it was written by a developer not by FTP master I think FTP master probably has their own list of requirements somewhere but I don't know where it is the Fedora project has done a really good job on their wiki documenting the licenses and the ones that are acceptable and the ones that they don't and so I think we have a set of bucket lists for Fedora and so it's real easy not to look at Fedora and be able to click on something there's a developer in Fedora, Tom Calloway I think that's done a really good job on that because they were doing some auditing a while back where they were auditing for GPL v3 also I think they made the decision not to include any proprietary codecs they have done a good job of figuring this out and I'd like to start pushing this in Debian trying to get the Debian legal team, FTP master everybody else who cares together and come up with some canonical lists of these are things we think OK and these are things that we don't and they don't have to be definitive we can just say these are the things we're sure are OK and these are the things we're sure or not they don't have to list everything but it would at least be a good start I want to go back to the license scan here and go up to a slightly higher level so a minute ago I talked about unpacking Debian source packages you can see we have three different files that are in the source package but it was also smart enough to say oh yeah this is a source package unpack it and then you can drill down and look at that view as well so just see if we can embarrass Eric here I think all these licenses look OK I don't see anything that pops out as being particularly bad for Debian it's hoping we'd find a well actually I wasn't hoping but I was worried we were going to find some nasty license in there so anyway that's a short demo of how it looks I'm welcome to I'd be happy to go through and show you other stuff in here if you have other questions go ahead Bido do we have a mic? the first thing is I wanted to comment that while new processing is sort of an obvious place to use this the place I've always been more concerned about are just sort of random uploads of packages that have already been accepted into the archive where upstream makes some license revision one of the ones the lawyers really want to understand they're not afraid of it they just want to understand it is when a GPL version changes whether that's two to two or any later to three or any later and that sort of thing so it seems to me that if we get an instance of this that's running well enough plugging it in so that it actually watches every source package upload would be in some way reports anything that looks like it's changed on that upload would be really interesting the second thing I wanted to comment on is that I think the easiest way to get to a bucketized list would be to start by taking a scan of everything that's in Maine that's in non-free and using the licenses found to seed the two and my suspicion is that in the process anything that comes up in the Maine scan that somebody freaks out about will be easy to notice and handle and that actually led me to the last thing I wanted to ask you about I know that when we first agreed to open source this code base out of HP and seed the community there was intense concern about what happens if we start just publishing the results of scanning major released commercial Linux distributions and stuff like that from who's going to be embarrassed at what they weren't paying attention to standpoint do you think enough times gone by enough things have gotten addressed already and so forth that major embarrassments are not likely to happen here or do you have any sense from the scans you've been doing of squeeze DVDs of it how we stand with Devian just a few words on that would be interesting. I mentioned that because Fedora already had good lists it was pretty easy to scan and look and see if they were compliant with their own restrictions and I think when we did that we didn't find anything major popping out but one thing that's kind of interesting is that for the public repositories that we have set up to do the sort of thing we've only been doing things that we can freely distribute and so that means you know Devian and Fedora sort of thing but it doesn't mean Red Hat Enterprise Linux or doesn't mean some of these other things because one thing that's kind of interesting is that you know within the UI here you can click on things and download them and so in a lot of ways I mean it would take you forever but you could get all the software you know via this web interface and so the decision was made that yeah we can't really scan Red Hat Enterprise Linux although I guess presumably you could do CentOS and that would be kind of the same thing and that might be kind of interesting we haven't done a scan on CentOS but that would be nice to do yeah obviously I'm not interested in embarrassing anybody I didn't mean to point to any particular company or anything like that it's just that I remember there was a lot of discussion about you want a tool like this to be perceived as adding value to the community's processes and not sort of destroying the community in the process yeah not giving lawyers just ammunition to go after them yeah you know I obviously you know I had some small role in helping to get people convinced that you know this is something A that we should do and B that we should open source so I'm really tickled to see you talking about it here and I hope folks in Debian will take advantage of this you know our FTP masters already do all of this work they just do it by hand where they've written some other little tools to help and I think the same thing is true with things like the Lintian Lab you know a lot of people have done a lot of things to write code to iterate over source packages and all if this ends up being a good infrastructure for making those things easier to maintain and use going forward that's cool so now you are doing these analysis on the complete Debian distribution with I don't know 15,000 source packages so how do you actually proceed from all these very detailed listings to find out what are the problematic cases that's the first question excuse me and the second question is do you actually plan to include some logic in this which for instance would find out which license is compatible which other license because for instance on this approach I see many different license so maybe you would like to find out one when they are not compatible yeah definitely that would be a good idea and I think that's been talked about I think it's on the list of desirable things to be able to do because obviously you have a lot of licenses that aren't GPL compatible and it would, what you need I think is a concept of at what granularity is a conflict bad you know when they are in the same directory I guess you could do it at the directory level and see like okay below this directory we know we have two things and one of them is GPL and one of them is non-GPL compatible and have it flag that that would be cool what was your first question again how do you actually do data mining on all this data that you get say on 15,000 source packages to find the problematic cases? I think the bucket browser is one attempt at helping you to find those sorts of things right now a lot of it's very verbose and I think would require post-processing of some of the results if you're scanning something very large and you're trying to find some things and so some of the great here you can with that link there you can download the results dump them to a file and do some post-processing and that sort of thing the UI could be extended to do that it just hasn't been yet it's pretty crude and just letting you browse the results that are in there but the UI is written to be pluggable as well just like the agents are and so you can drop in an agent that does a particular kind of scanning and then you can also drop in some PHP files that then present the UI for your particular agent you know so eventually I would like to do you know if we did a lintian agent whenever the scheduler encountered devian packages it would fire off the lintian agent that would scan it put the results in the database and then somewhere in the UI here we would have something that was smart enough about lintian to let you browse the results one of the tricks about automating this and I think that BDale's idea of automatically analyzing the uploaded source packages is a great one I'll probably write in with continuous testing is that we're going to be making this transition from manual inspection to automatic inspection has a risk about the quality of this I mean obviously we could talk about the quality of manual inspection and the consistency of that but how can we measure the degree of trust that we can have in these tools yeah I don't know the answer to that I mean I think first off we need to look at it as this is a not a crutch this is a tool to help us do the stuff that we're doing by hand easier and help make our time more efficient but you know we're still going to be on the hook to make sure that that everything gets done properly and so yeah so I'm not sure how you avoid falling into that trap maybe a year or two ago that they were trying to get a machine readable copyright project going yeah that was the thing I mentioned earlier and I'm not sure what the status of that is and I've heard there's something going on even upstream as well to do I don't know if it's a machine readable copyright but it's more just like maybe a standard boilerplate for what you put on the top here C files that makes it a little more machine parsable I was just going to comment in response to Tom's query that I think one of the things that I find most interesting about this and it's actually one of the ways that I sit on HP's internal open source review and one of the ways this gets used a lot is we look at the deltas between previous and current runs so there's still this notion that at some point you have to decide that you've got a clean archive and you can use tools like this to help but the reality is I think if you asked our FTP masters they would feel pretty good about their current W&M main archive so the question then becomes there's always the possibility you discover something that got missed in the process of scanning a lot of it but the more interesting thing is what changed on this upload? Did the list of licenses found in the tree change and if so is that worth a quick look by a human right now today we do a lot of manual inspection of what we do and we expect package maintainers to not be idiots about things they upload and occasionally people go and do some try to rebuild, hold archive, they do various processing things and often these are done by people who are not core deviant developers but they're people outside the project studying the project and various people at different times look at it it's not like we have any systematic analysis of license changes or copyright reassertions or bug fixes in the text of a copyright from an upstream maintainer we know these things happen, we see them happening, those of us who maintain packages have had to deal with this stuff over and over and over again over the years and I would think anything that helps us observe deltas in the same way that Lintian for example helps us understand if some policy has changed and we haven't been paying attention and our package is no longer compliant this could help a lot with that sort of routine analysis and this actually reminds me of something I wanted to mention and that is when the change to the new architecture was made when the unpacker is going through things every time it encounters a file it puts it in the file repository and the way it does that is it uses a hashed directory scheme where it's the first bits of the hash are split into directories and then the file name is a combination it's a SHA-1 and MD-5 and a size or something to make sure that there's absolutely no possibility of collisions. Anytime it encounters a file it puts it in the repository with that name but then all the agent analysis is also driven off of that ID and so if an agent has already run on that ID if it encounters it multiple times in the scan that's just fine so what that means is that we can do something like upload this week, squeeze DVD, source 1 DVD it does all the analysis. When we upload next weeks as it's picking everything apart it only has to rerun the analysis on the files that have actually changed which is pretty cool and your comment about wanting to know about the deltas reminded me about that you know, Phosology kind of inherently already knows about when files change or when there are new files and so it should be possible in the UI to be able to say like oh hey look you know these files changed and here's the new results as opposed to all the ones you've already spent a lot of time going over and looking at. Right there's been some work funded by the EU looking at automatic assessment of quality in software and I was wondering if people have been thinking about plugging filters into quality and stuff. The other thing that occurs to me is that we had a talk about automatic textual analysis of mailing lists a couple of days ago from Hannah and that was really interesting and I was we've got a lot of data in the bug tracking system about how good or bad the code is. Yeah, someone just I was in a sort of Bayesian filtering between the uploads that introduced what was later found to be an RC bug and then work out sort of things that tend to introduce RC bugs and some of the time that's going to be just pointing at difficult code but some of the time it's going to be saying this particular structure in C is really dodgy. Yeah, I was in another session at the time but somebody else also already mentioned to me that about Hannah's talk about this could potentially be applied in Phosology as well. What was the last bit you just said because it reminded me of something? Matching RC bugs back to where they were introduced and therefore using the Bayesian analysis. Yeah, anything you could think of, any sort of scan you could think of that you could run to be able to do such things should be easy to wrap an agent around it and in some cases that's stuff at looking at changes over time as well so some of that would have to be at a deeper level. Any other questions? I should actually defer most of these questions to Daniel because he's the expert on this. Yeah, so something I would say is that the people who run the license identification might not be the people who are capable of understanding the licensing constraints. For example, when you show UCARP, there's actually some GPL with exceptions. Those are actually install SH if I think it's part of the autocom, auto make system. And get text. And essentially this system I don't even think that is GPL, it's just basically that it has some embedded components that they are copied by the configuration management system that do not impose conditions on this code. So I think it's actually very tricky and I think it might sound wrong but I think that this is actually to be done by somebody who really understand licensing. Because otherwise you can actually have this explosion of people worried about things that they should not worry or do the way around which is people that think that things are okay and they are actually wrong. Yeah, and the original tool that I mentioned that HP wrote as they encountered things that were giving those sorts of false positives they just coded in weird exceptions into the tool to tell it, oh yeah, I just ignore config sub and config guest because we know that's probably okay. But that's what I mean. They're not errors, they're not false positives, they're there. It's just that the conditions allow you to use them in such a way. So they shouldn't be ignored by the tool, they should be reported. But the problem is that the interconnections of the different files make them difficult from the licensing point of view. And I think that's actually why we shouldn't use the term false positive. It's just that it's a true positive but in the way that the system is built it is okay. Yeah, but at the same time usability wise if you want to make it easy for people to do things that we need some sort of system that allows you to have categories of things that, yeah, yeah, I know about that, that's fine. But I don't want to see it, I want to see the more important thing. That's actually way better than to embed into the tool saying I don't care to see this one. What you should be able to say is that some people might care to see this one. And I totally agree with the idea that the lawyers are the ones who actually want to say I want to be notified when something strange happens. And so my time is actually dedicated to that. And in many cases like config.h.n, those are files that you will always find with GPL version 2. But those will really not affect your code. As a full up to that question was that tool meant for lawyers to have a look at? I mean I'm just trying to understand the process that they would go through to approve something. Were they actually looking at physiology or were they relying on a scale developer going through using physiology and producing a report saying that it was okay? I can give a quick summary or be able to give more notes. But the way it worked was HP had an internal process they called the open source review board and that had, was a team of lawyers but also technical people that anytime anybody in the company wanted to do something. Yeah so very early the idea was that we needed to have a review board that represented all interest. So in addition to legal folks and technical people understood the software and HP's patent portfolio and all of that, there were also people representing open source community interest and people representing the business interest of the different HP businesses. So the idea was let's take a holistic view of each proposed interaction between open source software and some HP proprietary software content and ensure that the decisions we're making about what we contribute into the community, what we perhaps entangle ourselves in with licenses like the GPL and where we are willing to take things in and use them in products are all conscious decisions. And over time a set of heuristics sort of evolved about what makes a good decision and what should we use. And one of the things we realized is we were spending a lot of time staring at source code in these weekly review meetings and that was fine when we had one or two proposals a week but when we had 20 or 30 proposals a week that fell apart. So we started creating tools like this today. Lawyers don't tend on a daily basis to go look at these results themselves. There are people who are part of a team that prepares proposals for review in our weekly review meetings who use these tools to generate what amounts to a, it's kind of like I don't know what to call them, the folks who help lawyers do stuff. But anyway, it's like a paralegal kind of activity in that they are, there are people who are really experts in this kind of stuff who use this tool to help prepare an analysis. And still there are times when we look at something and go this is a little confusing. Let's go look at the actual source code. Let's go talk to the people who are actually doing the work and make sure. But in a typical week when we're reviewing somewhere between one and two dozen proposals all but one or two of them end up, we look at it and go yep that's easy, yep that's easy, okay that's cool, we can do that. Gee this one sounds like a great idea but our IP licensing folks need to review this and make sure they're comfortable with our giving away that piece of quote, intellectual property, unquote. And that's how the process works and no, average lawyers don't read this. We do have some non-average lawyers though. They're the ones I really like working with. I think Moritz had a question and that's probably about all we'll have time for. Well at first I left the initial question whether it's Phosology, Debbie and Ned Wyatt up to Debbie and Ella, can any DD lock into it? It's not yet, we just set it up a couple weeks ago and so far only I have an account but if people are interested, I think the first thing we need to do is sit down guidelines and structure about where people can do things but probably we'll create a user's directory and then each user can have an area where they upload and other things. I'm hoping to have a public part of the archive where we have all the snapshots of the distro and I guess we'll have, yeah we can talk about it but I think it's definitely possible. There's no way to tie it in right now to Debbie and her authentication system where we can just give everybody one. So right now it would be a special case kind of thing where it's like, yeah I'll create you an account. So if you want to do that, just let me know. And I think we're out of time. Thank you very much.


So let's take our first official look at GenoPet, a new move to earn game that's basically a mix of Pokemon Go and a Tamagotchi. If you grew up in the 90s, then you know what I am talking about. Once you get an access code, you can basically mint one GenoPet for free. You have to answer a series of questions which helps create the personality of your GenoPet with your own psyche. Once that is completed, then your free unique GenoPet is ready to hatch. You will be then prompted to name your pet and use the bank your steps function for the first time. You must bank your steps every day before 12am local time or it gets reset and you lose them. Are you going to be playing GenoPet? Let me know in the comments if you need an invite code.


Welcome. I welcome you all to this lecture in the course Samasa in Paninian Grammar 2. As is our practice, we begin our lecture with the recitation of the Mangala Charana. In this course, we are studying the three important types of Samasas. In this lecture, we are focused on the Bahu Vrihi Samasa and an aspect of it. The structure of the Bahu Vrihi Samasa can be shown in brief by this particular equation on the slide, where we have x and y two independent entities in terms of the word form, the meaning and the accent, and they are semantically interrelated as is indicated by the plus sign. And then the speaker of Sanskrit decides to merge them together and generates an output in the form of x, y, which is one unit. The features of this x, y are Aikarthya or Aikarthatha, Aikapadya or Aikapadatha and Aikasvarya or Aikasvaratha. This is one unit. Now the head of this unit as far as the Bahu Vrihi Samasa is concerned is neither x nor y. That's why none of them is put in the bold characters. The head of this Bahu Vrihi Samasa lies outside of the compound that is z somewhere. So this x, y qualifies that z. So in the Avaibhava Samasa when the first member of the compound becomes the head, x was shown in the bold characters and in the Tathpurusha Samasa where y or the second member or the final member of the compound becomes the head, y was shown in the bold characters. Nothing of that sort happens in the Bahu Vrihi. Therefore none of the x and y is put in the bold characters. In the Ashtadhyayi, the Bahu Vrihi Samasa is dealt with at different places. So the Samasa Vidhyayaka Sutras are stated from 2 to 23 onwards up to 228. 223 is Shesho Bahu Vrihi and 228 is Tenasaheti Tulya Yoga. Samasanta Prateja Vidhyayaka Sutras are stated from 54113 onwards up to 5.4.160 and the Swara Vidhyayaka Sutras are stated in 6.2. Currently we are studying the section from 5.4.113 onwards up to 5.4.160. In this section the elements that are added or substituted at the end of the Samasa are stated with reference to the Bahu Vrihi Samasa. So far we have studied the Samasanta Prateyas. Now we from this lecture study the Samasanta Adeshas that are stated within this particular section. Samasanta Adeshas are stated from 5.4.129 up to 5.4.150. Let us study them one by one. The first of these Samasanta Adeshas is stated by the Sutra 5.4.129 which is Prasambhyam Janunor Gnyu. And the meaning of the Sutra is at the end of the Bahu Vrihi Samasa the word Janun which comes immediately after the words Pr and Sam is substituted by Gnyu. I repeat at the end of the Bahu Vrihi Samasa the word Janun which comes immediately after the words Pr and Sam is substituted by Gnyu. The Bahu Vrihi Samasa in this case is stated by So when the meaning to be conveyed is one whose knees are long the Laukika Vigraha is So here we have the Laukika Vigraha Then we have the Laukika Vigraha namely Pr plus Au plus Janu plus Au Then the Samasa Saudnia takes place and then the Prativedika Saudnia takes place Then we apply Supodhatup Prativedika Yoho So we have Pr plus 0 plus Janu plus 0 And now we substitute this Janu coming at the end of the Bahu Vrihi Samasa by Gnyu by this present Sutra <IP_ADDRESS> So we get the form Pradnyu which is the finally derived Bahu Vrihi Samasa output Pradnyu And then we add the suffix Su Pradnyu plus Su And then we get the form Pradnyu when the Samasa qualifies a masculine entity Similarly, when the meaning to be conveyed is one whose knees are together Sangate, Januni, Yes, Yes, This is the Laukika Vigraha And by doing the same process we derive the finally derived Bahu Vrihi Samasa output namely Saudnia And then the Prativedika Vigraha would be Saudnia The next Sutra <IP_ADDRESS> is Urdhvat Vibhasa What this means is at the end of the Bahu Vrihi Samasa the word Janu Which comes immediately after the word Urdhva is substituted by Gnyu optionally I repeat at the end of the Bahu Vrihi Samasa the word Janu Which comes immediately after the word Urdhva is substituted by Gnyu optionally So we have Urdhva Januni, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes And we do the same process and substitute Janu by Gnyu optionally So we get the Samasa output as Urdhva Gnyu with the Gnyu substitution And Urdhva Janu in the absence of the Gnyu substitution That is the optional application of the substitution of Gnyu Urdhva Gnyu and Urdhva Janu This is the finally derived Bahu Vrihi Samasa output in accordance with 5.4.130 And the Prativedika Vigraha would be Urdhva Gnyu and Urdhva Janu Let us now go to 5.4.131 This is Udhaso Anang Now the meaning of the sutra is at the end of the Bahu Vrihi Samasa The word Udhas is substituted by Anang I repeat at the end of the Bahu Vrihi Samasa The word Udhas is substituted by Anang Anang is An, having the marker N which has got a very peculiar function Now here there is a Vartika statement which says Udhaso Anang is Trigrahanam Kartavyam This substitution takes place when the intended meaning has femininity in part So meaning one, a cow whose bosom is like a pitcher And this meaning is to be conveyed The following derivation happens and the finally derived Bahu Vrihi Samasa output takes place And then there are these two sutras which play a crucial role in such a derivation Namely Bahu Vrihi Udhaso Gnyu This adds the suffix Gnyu indicating the femininity After the word Udhas which is part of the Bahu Vrihi compound And this sutra is 4.1.25 And then we delete the U of the An in accordance with 64134 Namely Allopo Naham Let us look at the derivation So the Laugika Vigraha is Kondam Iva Udha Ha Ya Sya Ha Sa So now the Laugika Vigraha would be Kunda plus Su plus Udhas plus Su Then we apply the Samasa Saudhna then we apply the Pratimidika Saudhna Then Supodhatup Pratimidika Yoho applies So you have Kunda plus Zero plus Udhas plus Zero When we join them together we get the form Kundo Dhas Now Kundo Dhas we add the Pratimidika Vigraha to it So we have Kundo Dhas plus Su and then we add the femininity suffix Kundo Dhas plus Gnyu plus Su caused by the sutra Bahu Vrihi Udhaso Gnyu And then we have the sutra Udhaso Nang applying And so we have Kundo Dha An plus Gnyu plus Su So Kundo Dhan plus Gnyu plus Su And then we have the Su Pratyayagetting drop So Kundo Dhan plus Gnyu By the sutra Halgnya Abhyodir Ghat And now we have Kundo Dhan plus E So E is the actual Pratyayagetting Now because E is the beginning Pratyayagetting So we apply the sutra Alloponaha And so this E in Dhan gets deleted So we have Kundo Dha Nha plus E And finally when we join these together We get the form Kundo Dni A cow whose bosom is like a pitcher Kundo Dni Similarly Ghatodni will also be derived in the similar fashion Where the Samas output would be Ghatodhan An important sutra which plays an important role over here Is Nyitcha which says that even though the adesha is anekal But if it has the marker G Then this adesha must substitute the final element of the substituent Nyitcha 1153 Then we go to the next sutra 5.4.132 Which is Dhanushascha This sutra means that at the end of the Bahu Vrihi Samasa The word Dhanush is substituted by Anang Anang means An Now here the following sutras play a crucial role Sarvanamasthana Icha Sambuddhau in Lendening Halgyam Bhavdirga Suthisa Prattam Hal In terms of the deletion of the Su And Nalopapratibhadi Gantasya in order to delete the final Nha And we get the examples like Pushpa Dhanva and Gandhi Vadhanva Let us look at the example The meaning to be conveyed is one whose Bahu is made out of a horn One whose Bahu is made out of a horn Sarangam Dhanuhu Yesyasaha Sarangam Dhanuhu Yesyasaha This is the Laukika Vigraha And the Laukika Vigraha would be Sarangha plus Su plus Dhanush plus Su So the Samasa Saudhna takes place And so the Prathipadika Saudhna takes place So we apply the sutras upodhatup Prathipadika Yoho And delete both the sups So we have Sarangha plus Zero plus Dhanush plus Zero And then when we bring them together We get Sarangha Dhanush And then now we apply this sutra Dhanushascha And so apply the substitute Anang at the end of Dhanush That is Sir, so we have Sarangha Dhanu An And then because of this An Ecoenergy applies So we have Sarangha Dhanva An And when we join them together We get the form Sarangha Dhanvan Now in order to use it in the sentence We add the suffix Su after it So we have Sarangha Dhanvan plus Su Then we apply the sutra Sarvanamasthane Chasambuddhau And lengthen the penultimate vowel So we have Sarangha Dhanvan plus Su And then finally we delete Su By the sutra Halgnya Bhyodirga Suti Sapratamhal And so what remains is Sarangha Dhanvan And then we delete this final note By the sutra Nalopap Prathipadika And so we get the form Sarangha Dhanva As the Prathama Ekavachana Sarangha Dhanva Sarangham Dhanuhu Yastasaha Isthalavkika Vigraha And Sarangha Dhanva is the Prathama Ekavachana Of the compound Sarangha Dhanvan Similarly Adhijjam Dhanuhu Yastasaha Isthalavkika Vigraha And we get the finally derived compound output Namely Adhijya Dhanvan By substituting Su by An By this sutra Dhanushascha And the Prathama Ekavachana would be Adhijya Dhanva One whose bow has the bow string on That means one who is ready Always ready He is called Adhijya Dhanvan Or Adhijya Dhanva Its Prathama Ekavachana Then the next sutra is 5.4.133 Which is Vah Saudnyayam What this sutra means is that Is that At the end of the Bahuvrihi Samasa Which denotes a term The word Dhanush is substituted by Anang Optionally So when you have the meaning One who has 100 bows Shatam Dhanuhu Yastasaha The Optional application of the Substitution Anang gives us two forms Shatadhanush Where there is no substitution And the form remains as it is Shatadhanush But when you add Anang The form Shatadhanvan Which is the Samasa output So you have Shatadhanuhu And Shatadhanva As the Prathama Ekavachana Derived from these two samasas Shatadhanuhu and Shatadhanva This is in fact the name of a king In the Samantaka Upakkhana As the commentators have provided The information to explicate How this word denotes a Saudnyayam Now we move towards the next sutra By point four point one thirty four Which is Jaya-ya-ning Jaya-ya-ning The meaning of this sutra is At the end of the Bahuvrihi Samasa The word Jaya is substituted by Ning that is ni Once again the sutra nitcha Applies one one fifty three And says that even if the substitute Is Anikal If it is added with the marker N which it is in this case Then the substitute Substitutes the final Bahuvel And not the entire substitute So in case of Jaya A is the final sound And that A is substituted by Ni So the word Jaya means wife And its traditional explanation Is as follows She is called Jaya In which he is reborn Jaya that is wife So here is the derivation Of the Samasa Whose meaning is one whose wife Is a young woman This is the meaning to be Intended to be conveyed So you have the laukika vigraha Yuvati hi jaya yasya sahah Yuvati hi jaya yasya sahah So now the laukika vigraha Is yuvati plus su Plus jaya plus su And then the samasa saudhnya Takes place Then the prathipadi ka saudhnya Takes place So supadhatup prathipadi ka yoho Uplies And we get the form Yuvati plus zero Plus jaya plus zero Now here we apply the Umbadbhava operation And we get the form Yuvati plus zero Plus jaya plus zero And then we have Yuvati plus zero Plus jaya as the Finally derived compound As the finally derived output And now here we apply The sutra jaya Ning which substitutes A at the end of jaya Then we get Yuvati jay me Then this year gets deleted Because of Lopovirvari So we have Yuvati jay me And now we have The finally derived Bahurihi Samasa output Yuvajani Then we add The suffix Su to it We get the form Yuvajani heen So in this case Lopovirvali 6166 Uplies And deletes Yur in jay And then also The sutra 6334 Surya pumbat Bhashita pumbas ka danoom Samana dhikarade Surya apurali priyadishu Which we have already Studied in detail This applies At the stage of Yuvajani And substitutes This year by Zero And we get the form Therefore Yuvajani Let us now proceed further And study The next sutra 5.4.135 Which is Gandhasya itt Uth puti su surabhibhyaha I repeat Gandhasya itt Uth puti su surabhibhyaha The meaning is The one That follows At the end of the Bahuvrihi samasa The word gandha When comes immediately After the words Uth puti su and surabhibhyaha Is substituted by itt That is i I repeat At the end of the Bahuvrihi samasa The word gandha When comes immediately After the words Uth puti su and surabhibhyaha Is substituted by itt That is i Here we apply the sutra Alone thesya 1152 Where the Substitution is made in place Of the final element Of the substitute end So final U in gandha Is substituted by i There is a statement Which says Gandhasya ittve Tadeikanthagrahanam What it means is that The saint Or gandha A guna Should be a part Of the denoted Meaning namely Gunin Or drabhya Pushpam Salilam Vayu Etc And not Apanaha Sugandha Shobhanaha Gandha Dravvayani That is not The meaning intended Over here So The meaning to be conveyed Is One who has good scent And this is Referring to a flower And not to The shop In which The flowers Are kept For sale So one who has good scent Shobhanaha Gandha Yes This is the Laokika Vigraha And then the Laokika Vigraha is Su plus Su Plus gandha plus Su Samasa saudhna takes place Pratipati ka saudhna takes place So we apply Supodhatup Pratipati ka yoho So we have Su plus zero Plus gandha plus zero Then when we Join them together We get the form Sugandha And here we Substitute this final U by E In accordance with The present sutra So we get The form Sugandhi Sugandhi As the Finally derived Bahubrihi Samasa output Then we have Sugandhi plus Su And this Su is deleted And this Su is substituted By the Visargha So we get The form Sugandhi As the Pratama Ekavachana Of Sugandhi Similarly we get Uddhgandhi Putigandhi And Surabhigandhi As the Other forms Of the Pratama Ekavachana Of these compounds Derived by This particular sutra Substituting U at the end By E Then let us Go to the next sutra That is 5.4.136 Which is Alpakhyayam What it means is At the end Of the Bahubrihi Samasa The word gandha Which means Small amount Is substituted By E That is Ith There The tradition says Alpakhyayogandha Shabdha Alpakhyayogandha Shabdha So when the meaning is The food in which Ghee Soup Or milk Is in small quantity Alpam Asmin Bhujane Gratam Or Supaha Or Kshiram And then we get Samasa Gratagandhi Supagandhi And Kshiragandhi Pitta Addition of the Samasanta Adesha E at the end Gratagandhi Supagandhi And Kshiragandhi Let us Go to the next sutra 5.4.137 Which is Upamanaachya The meaning of this Sutra is At the end Of the Bahubrihi Samasa The word gandha Which comes Immediately after A word Denoting the Standard of comparison Is substituted By E I repeat At the end Of the Bahubrihi Samasa The word gandha Which comes Immediately after A word Denoting the Standard of comparison Is substituted By Ith Or E So when The meaning To be Conveyed Is One whose Is like that Of the cow dung So we have Padmasya Gandhaha Iwagandha Yastya Saha Or Karishastya Gandhaha Iwagandha Yastya Saha And then Padma and Karisha Being the Standard of comparison Or Upamana We At The Samasanta Adesha E In place of Final E in gandha And we get the Finally derived Samasa Output Gandhi And Padmagandhi And Karishagandhi Will be the Prathama Ekavachanas Let us proceed Further To the Sutra 5.4.138 The sutra Is Padashya Lopo Ahasthya Deepbhaha Padashya Lopaha Ahasthya Deepbhaha Meaning is At the End of the Bahuvrihi Samasa The word Denoting the Standard of comparison Different Than a list of words Beginning with Hastin Is substituted By Dilishan I repeat At the End of the Bahuvrihi Samasa The word Padha Which comes immediately After a word Denoting The standard of Comparison Different Than a list of Words Beginning with Hastin Is substituted By Dilishan 152 And The final Ur In Padha Is deleted Here Is an example One whose feet are Like that of a tiger When this meaning is To be conveyed Where we have The Laukika Vigraha Vyagrasya Padau Ivapada Yasyasaha Vyagrasya Ivapada Yasyasaha This is The Laukika Vigraha And the Laukika Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Vyagraha Now here, we apply the sutra 5, 4, 1, 38 and delete the final a in paadha. So we have vyagra paadha as the finally derived bhavvrihi samasa output, vyagra paadha. And then we add the supratyaja after it. So we have vyagra paadha plus su, then the su gets deleted because of the sutra, then we apply vavasane and then we get both the forms, vyagra paadha ending in dha as well as vyagra paadha ending in tha. Similarly, we have su muha paadha and su muha paadha on whose feet are like that of a lion, su muha paadha and su muha paadha. What is this list beginning with hastin? So when the standard of comparison is elephant etc, the bhavvrihi samasa output is hasti paadha and the prathamaika vachana is hasti paadha. No deletion takes place. This sutra 5, 4, 1, 38 does not apply. Now here is a list of words which are part of this hastyadi. Hastin, katola, gandola, gandola ka, mahi la, dasi, ghanika and kusula. Let's go to the next sutra 5, 4, 1, 39. kumbhapadi su chha. The meaning of the sutra is the bhavvrihi samasas mentioned in the group of words that begin with kumbhapadi are grammatical. I repeat, the bhavvrihi samasas mentioned in the group of words that begin with kumbhapadi are grammatical. These words have the final vowel deleted kumbhapadi. They also have a feminine suffix added to them without option. The words are always in feminine gender. These are the features of these words. So we have the words kumbhapadi, shatapadi, ashtaapadi, jaalapadi, ekapadi, malapadi, munipadi, godapadi, gopadi, kalashipadi, grtapadi, dasipadi, nishpadi, ardrapadi, krkunaapadi, krsnapadi, dronapadi, drupadi, shakritpadi, supapadi, panchapadi, arvapadi and sthanapadi. In all these words, the final er is deleted and the feminine suffix is added at the end. Also, pada has become padd over here. Let us now go to the next sutra, 5.4.140, which is sankhyasupurvasya. What it means is, at the end of the bhuvvrihi samasa, the word pada, which comes immediately after a word denoting number as well as su, is substituted by delisham. I repeat, at the end of the bhuvvrihi samasa, the word pada, which comes immediately after a word denoting number as well as su, is substituted by delisham. This takes place at the end. So, aloanthyasya 1152 applies and the final er is deleted. So, when the laukika vigraha is, when the meaning to be conveyed is one who has two legs, the laukika vigraha is dvaupadau or trayahapadaha yasya sahah, one who has two or three legs. That is the meaning intended. And the laukika vigraha is dvaupadau, trayahapadaha yasya sahah. And then the finally derived samasa output is dvipadha and tripadha. Here, sankhyas is the purvapada. So, we delete the final er in padha by the application of this particular sutra. Similarly, one whose legs are good. When this meaning is to be conveyed, the laukika vigraha is shobhanaupadau yasya sahah. And so, the finally derived compound output is supadha, where su is the purvapada. And by the application of this particular sutra, we delete the final er in padha. So, we have supadha as the finally derived bahuvrihi samasa output. To summarize, the samasanta adesha is a peculiar operation stated to the bahuvrihi samasa. It is stated to specific words with specific formal conditions as well as certain semantic conditions. It is also stated optionally after some words and always after some other words. The samasanta adesha stated to the bahuvrihi samasa has several functions. It changes the final form of the compound from vowel ending to consonant ending etc. It also acts as a condition for particular accent. It also acts as a condition for addition of feminine suffix. And the important point to be noted over here is that it is stated in the same adhikara as samasanta pratyayya. And it remains a puzzle as to why panini did not stated separately. These are the references. We continue studying some more samasanta adeshas in the next lecture as well. Thank you very much.


Hello everyone, welcome to another Thought Leadership session powered by Voice of Healthcare. My name is Kaustubh Chatterjee. I'm working as a principal with Frostman Sullivan's Global Healthcare and Life Sciences team. And today I have with me an esteemed guest from one of the leading hospitals in India, is Deepak Venugopalan. He has over 23 years of experience in healthcare business management, the last eight years of which has been in senior management and leadership roles. Directly, he has worked with proprietors and board of directors. He has gained a substantial experience across all functions, functional areas of management, including enterprise-wide B&L management, green and brown-fill initiatives and public-private partnerships between leading private hospitals and large and government agencies. He has worked across different healthcare markets of the country. In fact, he has traveled all over India. He has experience working in Bangalore, Chennai, Hyderabad, Maharashtra, Goa, Gujarat, NCHH, Kolkata. So East-West, North-South, he has been everywhere. So he's basically at the center of everything happening in the private side of healthcare today. Right now, he's working as a chief operating officer regionally for Manipal hospitals.  So Deepak, thank you very much for your time today. I formally welcome you to the conversation. Thanks so much, Kasta, and thanks for the introduction. And thank you to the Voice of Healthcare team also to get me on this program. So looking forward to spend some quality time with you. The pleasure is all ours. So let's start with COVID-19. We have done a lot of webinars already around COVID-19 and what COVID-19 has changed in the hospital operation side. As we are slowly moving past this deadly pandemic, we now need to know how hospitals are fundamentally changing their healthcare operations and restructuring their cost frameworks to ensure that they stay resilient and sustain the momentum of high growth in the next three to five years. So the first question to you is, you're managing a pretty large hospital, one of the fairly well-known hospitals in India, Manipal hospitals in Bangalore. How have you steered the ship during this huge pandemic and disruptions in elective surgeries and obviously fluctuation in inflows of patients?  So that's an interesting question, Kasta, especially as I say, the human memory typically is quite short-lived and it's not even a year since, I think it was March 21st when the honorable Prime Minister called for this Janta curfew, right? And then there was this period of lockdown which was in 24th of March. So as healthcare professionals, I would say that it's been a roller coaster ride for all of us. And I remember the 22nd of March when the PM asked everybody to come out and clap for the healthcare providers. And there were these emotional videos flowing around how doctor mothers could not come back home for Diwali. There were multiple stories of heroism that I think as healthcare players have gotten to displaying. There were also the downsides where I think the industry was subjected to some media trials for COVID billing, as they said. There were South societies where doctors and nurses were asked to move on because of risk of infection. So I would still say that for us, it has been this model of Kavikushika become exactly going to this last one, one year almost, which is going to be concluding now. But I think some three broad learnings that definitely came out was dealing with uncertainty for sure. Because we did not know what we were dealing with. I think number two was developing a protocol around that to kind of deal with these uncertainties and also be very nimble and on the ground because it was constantly evolving parameters. And for Manipal Hospital, I think the core was around our people, first philosophy, cross the river to summarize it in a way that we felt that our employees are most important to us. We ensure that their health was taken care of. I'm proud to say that we didn't have a single layer of a single person who was asked to leave. It's a large financial distress that happened in the quarter one, quarter two. We did go through our little pressures and funds. But I think the philosophy from the senior leadership team was very clear that let's stay together, take care of each other. And I think that set the ground to deal with this pandemic that you were specifically asking. The second part was of course, the human part of healthcare brought out because we started working very closely with the government missionaries. The stakeholders from the communities got together. So there was a lot of team mystifying healthcare, if I could use the word just to kind of get closer to the reality on the ground with people and their emotions. And the second part was about building clinical predictability. So I think the disease began to evolve and doctors began to understand what's working on them from tablet protocols to egg mowers to pro-ventilation. I think the clinical predictability is something which kind of made us very distinct from a lot of other hospitals, especially treating patients and creating a brand loyalist out of that because people who got treated with us when they were most vulnerable, if you would imagine for the fear of losing their lives and then coming out of a hospital safe. I think has created a very new band of loyalists to our brand because they believe that this was a place where they kind of caught a second life to that extent. So that was the second part which kind of became a cold focus. And then specifically to your question on cost research, I mean, there have been a restructuring that we have built into a system in terms of more efficient consumption handling, doctors restructuring in terms of helping them and us kind of ensure that these costs are better managed. Infrastructure also cost a lot of changes in terms of dealing with fibril as a disease, right? Fibril clinics, respiratory ICUs, especially like ENT, octel, dental again, very close proximity to treatment plan. So I think what we realized is we have modified behavior as a new normal as we kept using the word has definitely got reinstated in our system now and it's much more robust and strong to deal with this. So I think that's broadly what it is. And specifically to your question again, people did delay their healthcare buying behavior. So the complexity of care and kind of bent up. So somebody who was dealing with an acute abdomen not coming to a hospital got into a few complications because he or she had to stay back at home with the fear of not coming to the hospital. So we went through that exercise, but I think the last quarter and the quarter for the bent up demand is beginning to come out into the hospital and people are visiting it more, you know, bolder to believe that the hospital is better to handle their emergency. So if I could quickly ask you about the role of technology in reimagining healthcare operations for you post COVID-19. We briefly chatted before the discussion about the role of artificial intelligence and other progressive technologies for you to deliver healthcare at scale and also approach every patient individually based on their, you know, individual health history. So could you talk about a little bit more about the technology, appetite, manipul hospitals have right now post COVID-19? Do you believe that COVID-19 was really an accelerator for higher adoption of progressive technologies across all departments within a hospital? I think that's a great question, Gospa, because I think all of us as healthcare managers have never put on a hat of a data scientist, right? I mean, we're all being running hospitals on a very brick and mortar model and believing that we need to be on the ground. But I think the moment we put in this and you have a vast experience in this area because of the digital practice that you have. So, you know, all of us need to start visualizing the power of data and begin to realize that how do you use it on a daily basis? So to give you an example, I mean, in my 23 years as I've been building my career in healthcare, initially I never visualized a quality video consultation happening with a patient and his doctor where they could make meaningful diagnosis and which is exactly what happened on those April, May, June where almost 100% of our opiaries were actually being video-concerted, you know? So the doctor and the patient had a very meaningful transaction. The EMR was getting built in, you know? And that EMR began to get into a longitudinal flow across the period of his stay or his hospitalization with us. So I think that was a major breakthrough in our minds when people began to consult through a video consultation and also pediatric cases, you know? We had dermatology issues, we had, again, cardiology, follow-ups, so the continuum of care was very strongly put around this. Yeah, so I think that has been a major change which we have been noticing and rest of them are evolving. So, you know, the artificial intelligence we used in terms of having a disease management program, a chronic disease management program, again, are, again, evolving. And I think we are partnering with a lot of like-minded players in the field which have their core competence in these areas because we are a healthcare delivery company. We are not technically an information technology company, but one of our cornerstones for the next years of growth is the digital transformation. So the entire team is oriented to it and it's working well for us, yes. Speaking about digital transformation, let me quickly share findings of a consumer survey we did among the top CEOs globally, not only in India. And almost 65 to 75% of them mentioned that yes, digital transformation is their core agenda and they're actively placing strategic bets towards making their infrastructure more digitally savvy and they're also making investment towards external collaborations. They're beefing up their own internal IT teams to ensure that they can successfully collaborate with a lot of third-party players to ensure that the care continuum is completely digitized and their patients receive care in equal standard when the patients are in the hospital and when the patients are moving away from that hospital. And we'll talk about the aspect of care delivered beyond hospitals, but right now one key question I wanted to ask around digital transformation is although 75% mentioned that they're eager to invest towards digital transformation, all of them also believe almost 90% of them believed that it's not an easy task to do and it's a long-term game, three to five years is the timeframe they have in mind before they can completely digitize their entire healthcare ecosystem within the hospital and outside. And some of the challenges they're facing is obviously centered around interoperability. Interoperability is one of the core issues that these large hospitals are facing. And when I talk about interoperability, it doesn't mean always the fact that a hospital is not able to collaborate or exchange information with another hospital outside its network. In many cases, even in India, we found that some large hospitals, these are integrated delivery networks which were not able to exchange information within their own hospital from one department to another department. So if a pharmacy within a large hospital system would like to send some information to the lab or the physician directly through our central EMR portal or HIS portal, many large fairly well-known hospitals in India are not able to do that. So speaking about your experience dealing with progressive technologies in Manipal Hospital, have you faced any such challenges of, first of all, establishing seamless interoperability across all the departments and second, dealing with external health systems to exchange information or share information? I think there's a concept of a unique health identifier number, the UHID, as we have for last 10 to 15 years. I mean, very early part of our careers, there was a concept that one UHID, that UHID stacks the medical record with the patient and the patient can flow from one hospital to the next and is seamless. But I think that cost of is a change in mindset where every one of us, including say the nursing, the lab technician, the nursing doctors, your paramedical staff, everybody starts contributing in building that digital story, right? And what happens is, this interoperability does fail when the chain starts getting broken out because there is a paper pen that comes to the table and the paper is scanned, that the data can be mined forward. So honestly, we wouldn't want to claim that we have really mastered this art, we are going through the transition and the senior leadership team again is believing that it must become a way of their daily life. For example, if I start interviewing a candidate without getting them to fill up a paper pen and get everything digitized, the person has a form to fill up a CV and we start practicing digitization in various aspects of hospital operation, not just the clinical part. I think we are going to start walking the first journey. So computer on wheels, point of care devices which can kind of capture the vitals of a patient directly from the monitors and start building that electronic record is the start point. And I think in our context, we have a fairly robust IT system which has stabilized for last many years and that has helped at least, as they say, the health level, the staging. So we would definitely be in a stage where our lab diagnostics in the back systems are all now kind of interoperable. The gap still remains around capturing that core clinical histories at the bedside because or the OPD desk because the doctor would prefer to have a dialogue and still have a pen and paper written which is the journey we are trying to now cross. I think it has to be where the users see value in why they're doing it. And I don't think it can really be enforced in a way that they are forced to do with the single key typing which kind of takes away the charm of it. So even today we are doing this chat on an online platform and it's as meaningful as it would have been if you were face to face. I think that evolution is more of a change in our behavior as a daily transaction with digitization, which will then go into your operational transactions at the workplace too. So I think that's the way I would look at it. We are walking towards it. It's not easy, but for sure as we are moving along we're beginning to realize that it has to be around the daily lives. So it has to be as seamless in terms of applying for my leave on my app which has been developed. Now we were Dr. App which is fairly robust. We have a patient app which is robust. So I think when people can transact their banking on an app, why not healthcare, right? So we need to start moving that journey and I think we're making some first steps there for sure. Thank you for that insight. Deepak, let's now touch upon the other aspect we briefly talked about prior to this question which is how care is delivered outside hospitals and how hospitals are playing an increasingly important role to make that happen on behalf of patients. And also I wanted to understand from your standpoint if you're delivering care outside your hospitals and basically bridging the gap that we are witnessing across India when they leave their health systems and go to their homes or go to another hospital. So what role Manipal is playing to ensure that the gap is mitigated and second how Manipal is collaborating with other stakeholders, be it in terms of M health companies, digital therapeutics companies, or even payers that are responsible to reimburse the hospital expenses on behalf of their patients. Yeah, yeah. So Kosta, I think again one reality check that has come to us is that we are a part of a larger ecosystem and there are players across different spectrum of care where there's a primary care, the diagnostic teams that are doing diagnostic labs, the pharmaceutical companies and pharmaceutical retail outlets, you know, the kind of care at home through physiotherapies and people going to their home. We are beginning to realize that the ecosystem is becoming larger and much more better wired and connected because that is the transition which we have to realize earlier. They were silos, the hospital believed that they can manage on their own. And also I'm saying it is much smarter now for us to kind of decongest our hospitals and eventually focus on surgical work, focus on critical care admissions, or make hospital as a destination for doing only those kind of works which typically cannot happen at home, you know. To the extent that there are now models of care at home where even ICU can be created at the house but I'm saying we don't want to go that far but definitely if we focus as a tertiary care, quarterly care player where our focus would be to do a high end surgical work. We take in patients with high comorbidities and acuity of care to do critical care work, then a lot of other activities can be decongested from the hospital's portfolio. So I think that's one way going forward and we have definitely evolved very strongly in that segment. You know, we have a team now which does a lot of work in terms of post-reader consultations ensuring the drugs are delivered at home. We have a team of laboratories to go down and collect samples. We were the first few who actually did even sample collection for COVID-19 from home because the inertia of not coming out of the house was almost six months to nine months as elderly patients, pediatric patients, they didn't want to come home, so come out of their homes, right? So they finally had to reach out to us and we developed a system around that, payment gateways are interfaced so that the work is seamless. So it has been a very, very satisfying journey in that fact. I think right from delivery of drugs at home to samples being collected because we have an advantage of closing the loop from the doctor perspective, doctor doing the consult, he advising what tests to be done, the test reports come back into his portal for him to use the values and then he has a follow-up consultation with the recommendation of medication. So I think as a healthcare player which is into delivery of healthcare, we have integrated the other streams quite well. Sure. Deepak, let's talk about various other initiatives, other hospitals are taking to ensure that they stay in touch with their patients. We are aware of a few large hospital systems in Northern India that are now delivering medicines on their patients we have and there are multiple implications to that strategy. One strategy is definitely as COVID-19 has put a break in international patient inflow, these hospitals are trying to capture the most of the local patients and the only way of doing it is to offer incremental value-added services to local patients. Second, as you bridge that gap and continue to stay in touch with your patients, you capture data which is essential for you to train progressive technologies that these hospitals are building right now in-house or they're procuring from Western markets or even local markets. So from Manipal Hospital standpoint, I'm just trying to understand in terms of rehabilitation services, some of the progressive IT companies are terming this service as cardio rehab or on-core rehab services and the services are delivered completely online through digital enablers and developed in consent with senior positions of a large hospital along with senior technicians from all over the world. So from Manipal Hospital standpoint, just trying to understand, would you be willing to experiment with such rehabilitation technologies that can be offered to a patient population both within India and outside? Yeah, absolutely. I think you somewhere mentioned that there has to be a clinical ownership and buy-in. I mean, if there are a set of physicians and doctors who believe that a lot of their care pathways and protocols can be managed remotely, it works well for us. I mean, to give an example, we have been doing this where we partnered with the government of Karnataka to do the E rounds, you know. So our super specialists who were managing COVID in terms of a pharmacist, a critical care team, the infectious disease specialist, all of them formed a panel for the government and we used to do these E rounds to monitor beds in the rest of Karnataka region in smaller towns and cities where the access to super specialists was limited. So it worked well. I mean, they were predefined time into the round. The parameters were predefined as to what you need to look for and the advice was definitely given and documented. So I think that's been a great example. We have also adopted a lot of smaller nursing homes, critical care beds. So a lot of these ICUs are three to four in structure. They have two to three beds with them. They have a good team there, but they are teams trying to be around the top supporting the care. So again, we have taken the EIC as a model where through technology partners, it's worked well for us. So as a receptiveness for the idea, we have already been doing it. Definitely the cornerstone for its success would depend on how the clinicians adopted because they are the ones who have to deliver. So to give you another spectrum, a few specialty like the spine surgeries or the orthopedics, you know, you really can't make a meaningful diagnosis unless you don't kind of examine and see the range of movements in a little touch and feel pattern, right? So if you do this smartly, look at those specialties which can be done easily to a remote monitoring, especially the rehab example you gave in, I think it's definitely doable, of course. And I think we have had a track record of successfully implementing some of them as well. Yes. Okay. We also briefly touched on international patient populations and their impact in the Indian healthcare business. I was interacting with a senior bureaucrat recently and he was concerned about the fact that although medical tourism was promoted hugely by the government of India a few years ago when we had specific provisions in the healthcare budget to promote a higher traction in the medical tourism industry, but the reality, especially due to COVID-19 is a little different. We are basically slipping off that list of being the number one destination of quality and affordable care in a global healthcare scene. We're just trying to understand Manipal historically has catered to a lot of international patients and that continue to happen, but because you're managing this from the front end and you're dealing with a lot of international patients probably you have been interacting with them as well. What has been your experience in understanding their evolving needs, especially in the context of COVID-19 to come to India for quality and affordable care? Yes. I think that's a great question, Kaskar, and I'm even trying to figure out answers to that, but one core area which has definitely come out is that we need to watch which India against some of the competition in terms of the other healthcare destination. So there are markets like Turkey, South Africa now, for example, with its strain of virus there. So there would be a general hesitant behavior in terms of the international patients to go to some of these regions which traditionally they went and as a country we need to start positioning that look, we are now manufacturing vaccines, we are vaccinating our team and the communities with a much safer place to come and this could not be done by one hospital but it has to be an industry movement. Like you said, we have also been in touch with a lot of government missionaries including the foreign ministries, et cetera, so that they also help us communicate the right message out there to know that the India's safe destination to travel now. And of course with that remises, you also are trying to look at options where we can send teams out there to do surgeries abroad as a program which we have been successfully doing where a team of doctors and nurses go from here in time because beyond the point you really can't delay your pain in the knees or a liver surgery or cardiac procedure because you have to get it operated on time. So maybe in air bubble, special provisions for medical travelers just to come in and out because I think honestly, it's all a question of knowing that RTPCRs are done, patients are being identified as negative for COVID and then you just operate them and get them back on the feet. So I think it does need a little bit of an industry push, I think we all need to step up on that direction but we are seeing some trickle coming in now and I think that's a great sign. Yeah, I'm really excited to know that and to continue on that note, let's again come back to the initial conversation around the role of information technology in delivering superior care to patients who are undergoing treatment right now and patients will probably come to the hospital system in near term. From Prostin Sullivan's standpoint, we always try to stratify the application of technology in healthcare in three ways. First one, as you've already mentioned, is the clinical domain where AI is directly used to diagnose what would be the underlying conditions and where is the affected area? I'm talking about the role of AI in tele radiology now and definitely there are other areas where AI is used extensively in ICU's and other critical healthcare systems. However, the application of AI in the clinical domain in India has not been great because of various issues, but one of the key issues that I faced dealing with a lot of hospital systems in India is the concern senior physicians have regarding the authenticity and the accuracy of this technologies in diagnosing this patient's condition. But there are other areas, as I said, the first one is clinical and there are areas such as financial and operational domains where technology can be equally used to ensure that the revenues are optimized and you also kind of reduce the inefficiency you see in gaps in the revenue cycles that you manage in the hospital system. And finally, you have the operations where AI can be directly used in supply chain analytics and other aggressive technologies can be equally used to ensure that patients are educated on their conditions and they stay on course with their care plan and medications after the surgery is done. Now, I'm just trying to get your point of view around this notion of technology being used across different departments in India. Do you believe, do you agree that yes, in India technology vendors should look out for more opportunities beyond the clinical domain to get immediate traction across large hospital system? Or do you think no, we should continue to build technologies for the clinical side of things and not only make it for the Indian audience but also we make it here and then we outsource it to the Western market the way we did it in the ICT technology domain? Right, I would, in my opinion, think that we must focus in terms of a technology working around the clinical domain first and it must come across more as an augmented care rather than a replacement of care. So, I'm saying like you said, if a Delirio.org report has a machine learning capability to read thousands of CD scans and they realize whether a scan needs an intervention, those kind of cues is when it's augmenting the clinical judgment and also trying to make life easier for a doctor. So, now with my 23 years in the industry I realized that what can we do to make the life easy for that core of the hospital to the doctor is what starts technology adoption much better. So, histopath reports getting read to a machine learning option, at least flag off the normals if that's a start of things that if there are normal reports you don't really need to spend time on reading them and flag off the abnormalities which need human intervention or the clinical brain as we call it is when I think technology adoption will do better and second would be the whole story around the patient's life cycle in terms of reminding them of the medicines to take, reminding them of the doctor visits, getting a trend on their blood parameters. We have done this very strongly in our on our money-part patient app and we keep encouraging our teams to keep downloading this but at the end of the day you have the doctor component and the patient component which is married through the technology in the right way. The third component would be what you brought out in terms of running the hospitals better or cost efficiency which are derivatives in my view because if you do the first two correctly the third would obviously flow out. I think if you go forward in that mindset and take small steps maybe ensure that people find the joy of doing this right because like I said a lot of times it is enforced the nurses forced to make those entries the doctor's forced to make those entries and it just kills the joy. So if you tell the doctor look I can give you this patient's diabetic HP1AC for last six months on a graph to you would that help you? You'll say yes it does. Can you help me record this when you are talking to the patient? And can you use this app which does that? I think those are conversations which are better for us and honestly with the kind of pedigree of doctors we have in the system they are looking forward to it as long as you know it doesn't kill the joy of a consultation is true sense because that's where the heart of the hospital lies. Right and speaking about physician burden I think we need another half an hour to talk about the burden of clinical documentation on physicians. I did a lot of reports around that fact and what's going on in the Western market in terms of clinical documentation, improvement technology and how those technologies are automating the process of clinical documentation at scale. Yeah so we'll do another call on that aspect alone but then we're going over time and I would like to thank you Deepak for your time today. It was a great learning experience to be and for everyone who is watching the video today and I hope in a smaller hospitals TA2, TA3 hospitals also get a lot of inspiration from you as they start to manage their hospital operations during this pandemic and after it. So with that note, thank you so much everyone for joining and hopefully we'll connect again soon. Thank you. Thanks so much Krestav. Thanks.