create issues elsewhere I'm saying like either way it would create big problems yeah I'm saying I don't think it's reasonable to assume they have that technology on them they're in like they're on the run they haven't prepared they have it once they get to fury safe house of course but uh yeah they have to have me to get the wings which is a little bit of a it's so funny in the film they're like we need to get past like three gated doors loads of guards it's like no problem it's like no no no no problem like this is a problem they've got like barely any resources and they can't trust anyone yeah but they can just go get that it's like okay yeah what if someone like snapped the photo with um the power of editing I don't even know that they can get in I don't know what their plan would be mm-hmm um and uh so then they they go to get sit well um which is something that wouldn't afford off of Zola and tell them anything so um I feel like it's time to bring in uh since they're at falcon's place falcon is intrinsically important to this plotline for many reasons many points and he met him the day the plotline kicked off that's incredibly coincidental I think that is Zola here without him they couldn't have won several times over he does a lot of things for him so there's that um they go to get sit well and so sit well told his bodyguards to leave which is super helpful because if they had stayed they wouldn't have been able to trick him into uh going up to the roof and so they do and they have the whole scene where they like oh Zola's algorithm you know evaluates people's past to determine their future targets their biometrics basically and kills them that's a little stupid um but you know what again it's done though like science fiction stuff um and so then that's all we get to we get to the highway fight scene um so Sam is in the so Sam is in the car first and foremost the wings are in the trunk um everything happens afterwards I guess the wings are gone where's it gonna get the wings did they bring them with them the strike guys in the same van that they eventually couched them in the wings without that the whole movie doesn't happen the wings are gone yeah yeah and just just I just want to make sure right four targets in a car we want to kill them all that is and we know where they are yep so we're Hydra and we're willing to blow the fuck out of this highway in public we don't care if people see this so he's that magnificent explosive disc launcher uh you know what I'll do you one better use a ballistic missile blow them up from space Predator missiles yeah like you know you know the thing that it uses to try to blow up uh black window you could just use that if you broken you broke the window and then tossed it in yep so so it's over that they're all dead all four of them it's over Hydra wins 20 million people dead several times over um Whitsa soldier picks the worst thing to do which is to kill sit well the defenseless one rather than like Sam or uh Steve or Nat by throwing them in front of the car or just taking the wheel out if he doesn't want to blow them all up for whatever reason we ignore if we ignore all of the other ways that he could kill them he chooses the one person he chooses the worst but like all of them want Hydra destroyed one of them is being held hostage so like if you're going to nail any one of them probably not that guy yeah element of surprise blown so he picks the worst one that's pretty catastrophic for a guy who is um the you know the the greatest assassin right who's ever lived um so we have all that and then uh yeah the fight takes place he pulls out the grenade launcher now wait so he takes two shots one through the car into Cap's head but Cap ducks and one into Falcon's head that's his hope he doesn't shoot where he cannot miss he shoots where he can miss if he had shot center of mass on the seat there's nothing they can do they're dead Will's greatest assassin but yeah he gets flying off and then they crash into the back of their car which knocks the gun out of Black Widow's hands rips the wheel out and then they crash um I'm gonna just totally disregard that Sam's he has no skin left on his arms when he's rolling across the road yeah whatever's bothering me yeah so that happened Cap gets up grabs the shield gets blasted by uh a grenade launcher from um Winter Soldier he goes flying into a truck his shield is gone elsewhere truck flips over as it keeps driving a little bit so he's out of the fight for a little bit you've got it pulled up there that shield is flying real far away from where he is keep that in mind um and so then they're doing their cool little slow walk on the highway trying to kill that awesome music kicks in because the soundtrack is awesome the soundtrack is great in this movie yeah it's really great from home too though um like Mysterio's theme being uh just changed the key signal not the key signature uh sorry yes changed the from major to minor and then it gives a completely different feel pretty cool like uh Vulture's being the inversion of the Avengers theme pretty cool it's um it's interesting how the music seems to carry the action sequences in this movie yeah well that and the editing I think it's the the editing yeah the editing the pacing yeah not not just a bunch of explosions gets down on the road whatever she probably should be dead from the from that but whatever um she runs down um she somehow manages to get an angle to shoot Bucky in the eyes uh that smashes glasses um but and then there's all that stuff and then she runs away and for whatever reason Winter Soldier says you guys kill Captain America I'll kill Black Widow I'm not sure why it isn't the other way around but um whatever you know he's he's not very smart um and so now we get now we get the the kind of kind of just highlight it's a bit of a nitpick I just think it's amusing these people who obviously the bus things happened cap for some reason takes longer than anyone else to get up I guess because he smashed through whatever they don't help him they just leave but yeah so he's in that van and the four bad guys jump down one of them with the minigun unload into the bus all of the bullets miss him now I don't know I don't know what to tell you about that that is unreal but anyway he runs out jumps out his shield is there which it shouldn't be it's either incredibly convenient or it shouldn't be there at all that landed that close to him it saves his life and again the cap dies 20 million people die so that is it's absurdly convenient for him um and so he he like cowers and tries to block him off um and he reflects bullets into one of the dudes which is that um and so the big part though is he charges the guy with the minigun and the guy with the minigun doesn't think you know what maybe I'll go for the legs like he just shoots at the shield as he keeps running at him this is the most famous floor of the film that most people know about yeah shoot him with the legs why you should have given the shield you can't possibly miss if you're hitting if you're aiming for the legs with the minigun it feels so frustrated to watch as well because it's just like it looks so easy that he could just tilt it a little bit down and then he's dead that's all you gotta do and then of course you know nat fights um winter soldier narrowly gets away and she gets hit and that's fine but man if cap was 5 seconds like a 2 seconds later she's dead if he was 2 seconds later she's dead very lucky that he gets there in time to save her um now I don't know if you want to talk about the fight scene more if you want to um I will so because we're at 4 hours 15 minutes right now so I'm not saying that well we're reaching our cap I for all I know we're halfway through um but I'm not going to go through every single thing I think that um uh the major one for me is the uh well I don't know if you want to you seem you seem into it Frank you go right ahead so do you guys remember a little movie called The Last Jedi uh yeah no what's that one about yeah so so there was this fight scene that I already thought was really cool where um where where they're in a big red room and they're fighting each other uh the little problem with that was that there was a knife uh or a lightsaber that um they could have used to kill rave but when they when it's when it's when they need it it just disappears it's gone it's just proof magic it's gone um so Winston soldier has three guns uh generally on him and a knife so he has an assault rifle he had the two knives yes so he has uh the the rifle with the grenade launcher uh and he has a machine pistol and just a you know semi automatic pistol so when he fights cap he starts shooting at him uh with the rifle he drops the rifle grabs his machine pistol um starts shooting at him and then uh cap leaps over the the car kicks that machine pistol away so two guns down he grabs his pistol and they they start shooting at each other uh no he starts shooting him so one thing I want to clarify right uh the entire scene we we assume he he uh he came here fully loaded right so mm-hmm he pulls out the scorpion go shoot shoot shoot shoot and then he has to reload there are uh fires like jam oh it was a jam oh either way either way by american yeah whether or not he's out of ammo or he's jammed just like really convenient um so yeah he shoots the pistol and then the pistol is just kind of not present now you have it pulled up what exactly does it look like for people there so you can see him with the pistol he gets punched and then yes the pistol is gone it looks so all we can assume is it's back in its holster or he's lost it but then there is no no evidence of the pistol on him throughout the scene yeah it's like uh must be gone then mm-hmm it must be gone yeah and here's the thing here's how we know it must be gone because there is when when he catches the shield that uh the cap throws at him that is your peak opportunity to get out that gun that you definitely have and shoot him as he runs and close the distance cap's dead yeah he's dead yeah like uh they have well go ahead uh so i'm sorry i just want to say the only uh fixed for the pistol that i can think of is they explicitly show like with a great camera angle cap clearly smacking the pistol out of bucky's hand and the pistol goes flying off and then he collects it later well that's the idea yeah like i i i am against guns just being knocked out people's hands and i agree with you and i think if if we were simply shown enough evidence that he might have picked it up at some point would be okay i don't know how well so the way to do it right i'll i'll tell you it would have been really convenient but they didn't even do it it's just a hole you see this part where he's thrown by cap if we could see evidence of a pistol on the floor anywhere around here it would turn into a dramatic convenience but instead it's just a hole he just somehow has a gun materializes one and you see this yeah can i quickly just point out a movie with a really great fight scene that accounts for like the one gun that is in the fight mission impossible fallout the bathroom fight oh yeah man balls out of the asian man's holster wow to the ground next like in the bathroom stall next to them so it's not in there with them they simply don't see it because they're focused on getting into the bathroom stall because they hear guys coming and the gun doesn't really ever come into play until the asian guy ends up near that stall where the gun fell down and he reaches for it and almost kills Ethan yeah um i actually think you know the part with a knife fight it's pretty pretty awesome it's still awesome uh it's just looks really cool yeah shame the stakes of this fight are fucked with though surrounding it he doesn't have it you see full body shots where there is no pistol on him at all it's he doesn't have it it's gone um but yeah when he needs it to do like oh who the hell's bucky gun suddenly appears um and that leads i don't know i don't know yeah that leads directly into the police forces they're willing to gun fury down in the road there's an active war zone type thing going on here but they all decide now we will arrest these guys we won't shoot them on sight that's how the action scene ends it's a big old slab but also we can't gloss over the fact that winter soldier was a split second away from putting a bullet in cat's and america's head and sam just shows up just in time to save them and he's about to do it again but just in time black widow's got the grenade launcher scares him off just in time at least he has the shield at that point yes that's true but still god damn he was not ready for that even before that it's i find it weird that bucky was just like after he was unmasked because like you know you want to get that mask up back on right away you don't want people knowing who you are um so he's just he's just like standing in front of captain america just staring at him as cap is staring back it's like shoot him yeah no he doesn't um and then that leads us right into the arrest scene where all four heroes are putting the same truck and it is the last truck in the convoy i just want to make sure we reiterate they could have shot them on site it was an active war zone these people are attacking like their men quote-unquote they're all fugitives they've done but they just don't and it's weird because rumlow it's almost like they've all agreed to arrest them they all come in like oh stop freeze freeze freeze wait don't kill him here and it's like wait if the orders were killed then why weren't you shooting at him yeah i don't know oh not here not here but we'll do it to nick fury in the middle of the city in front of everybody and this whole yeah and we'll do it to cap and in front of like and cap is currently a wanted man like he's they got a manhunt active for him and he's been fighting like they had all the excuses they needed yeah um but no they put him in the last truck the convoy and they don't kill a mother in the truck and wouldn't luck have it maria hill is on this truck and saves their lives with the light saber to dig the hole out at the bottom which would have been impossible if they were in different trucks or alternatively if they were all in one truck but it was in the middle instead of the back imagine rumlow was just like nah i'll go with them with my guys you can go in a different one random person i don't know yeah um and and again if they stopped 20 million people dead so yeah just just to remind me of another one of those things and yeah like it would have been fantastic it would have been grim as fuck but can you imagine that he gets into the thing they're all trapped and he just slices all of their throats one by one as they can't move and he's just like yeah this is the way to get it done because they apparently plan to dig their graves at this like this random site they had done that and they approach the back truck with their guns drawn as if something has already gone wrong it's like why did you put them in the back like the convoy i love the editing though it's like there's been a lightsaber so they're gone there's no way it's a lightsaber so you're done just teleport a device yeah there's a bit of a concern i have with that as well it's like so they say three holes start digging but there's one hole so like i don't know no what do you mean he sank three holes to bury them in like to kill them in the one hole in the back i thought you're gonna highlight it is an incredibly fucking bizarre place to dig graves because i was gonna say wait so if that's what that line meant then that's a really stupid place look at it it's like why would you dig graves here can you dig graves here well you can have some strong shovels maybe they have a lightsaber i don't know question did they escape once the trucks had stopped or while they were moving if it's while they were moving that's gonna kill them probably and if not that it'll separate the fuck out of them and the driver should probably notice something shitty but if it's while they were stopped they had seconds to get through that hole before they would have been found i don't even know that they could get all four of them through that hole before they check the back well three of them no four of them yeah it's four yeah so um that doesn't work i know you think it works but it doesn't work so many times the editing saves these characters oh yes um do we want to switch over there you go i'm from home what you got uh so okay so there's this funny line from Mysterio he says more casualties more coverage i gotta cut to the static London is a beautiful city they can recover whatever and then he says when its new savior descends all those casualties will be forgotten okay in a post-Sacovia towards the world those casualties will not be forgotten um i so if so your concern is like when you say casualties i don't think he's so casualty means like injured person you can say collateral right um oh he's told like uh this is gonna cause a lot of casualties more casualties more coverage that's a big threat just to make sure i'm not sure if we're on different so uh the way i understand the line is that he's saying a lot of people are gonna die for our illusion and then his people are like that's kind of fucked up isn't it we don't have to kill people then he's like don't worry they'll be forgotten what he's referring to is that this horrible monster demon is going to kill people when it's actually him but nobody's gonna know that it's just gonna look like he's not doing it he's saying it to his team and of course he's the hero right so everybody's gonna be like what a hero he saved the world yeah like we're not dealing with um a wonder situation in Lagos we're dealing with he's an enemy comes up it's hurting people he stops it there is no he wouldn't have caused any collateral because he's just firing lasers directly at it like this i doubt because it's his illusion i doubt he's gonna have a moment where he like pushes it into a bunch of a school bus full of children you know what i mean yeah unlikely um he's like reassuring his team is what i'm saying i'm not sure about the whole like all those casualties will be forgotten because um well it's interesting that you say that because there are casualties that have been forgotten by people who watch some of these movies it is kind of ironic but like the sycobia chord still exists in this universe well but i'm confused how does this what do you what do you think like my brain is struggling with this one i'm like so you're saying that the chords would be like hey misterio the horrible monster killed people you have to answer for that it's like well they wouldn't know it was his well yeah but like they would still care about the fact that like all those people died and he seems to i mean people will care but the idea is they're not going to blame him and they'll be like well you saved the world like good job you saved the world so yeah people did die but you saved the world i've always seen it as a really cool character moment so they're like this is sad and bad well he's like no one's gonna remember him once we get x him out forward that's not the point they're saying like it's immoral and he's like nana we won't remember it at the same point yeah but wouldn't it be more impressive like if he wants to impress people so much wouldn't it be more impressive if he was able to take out this monster with minimal casualties more casualties in the case how big of a threat it is yeah i think obviously yeah the idea being like this was this was a world-ending threat that he single-handedly destroyed and the more death count there is probably defines the bigger impact if this thing attacked all of london it was like no one died be like wow okay so really that wasn't so bad but again like that that then just results in the question of like where are the other avengers which again we'll have to see like the other movies that are coming out yes i suppose to account for this but i will go as far as saying like i think far from home does better than the other two shows being like i think so i mean one division i mean at least they are garbage like complete your well i meant in this regard they do give a shot in those other two shows i think one division tries right it says like they can't get a hold of don't they suggest i fucking don't want to remember that i don't even remember they do i don't think they do in that case yeah okay ignore that they're all garbage this this film at least has spider-man asking about them and that they're unavailable or otherwise like at least they tried and yeah i want a good justification of doctor strange i hope they take care of that i wouldn't rely on it though um another thing so with uh um with mysterio uh figuring out that peter and mj figured out that his whole thing was fake so at that point he would have um he would have figured out okay i need to tap their phones and see who he told um and i'm pretty sure like the scene with ned finding out about mysterio um when he gets told about that uh i'm pretty sure mysterio would have tapped their phones to make sure like uh you know who is peter telling um so it's like okay if you could tap their phones and i assume he would tap their phones at this point then why didn't you just kill all of them right there you already know who he told you want to make sure you can't leave any loose ends so he's going to put peter in a really tough position where he's like absolutely going to give him the truth as soon as he gets because i i think you're right i think he's probably got a lot of evidence of who he has told um but he doesn't know if that's all of them yet and of course they're surrounded by the other school people so he's probably going to try and figure out a way to kill all of the suspects once he can yeah so i guess he just wanted to just to make sure uh later on because uh you know there might be people that he's missing out he seems pretty elated in his fake fury once he finds out uh what peter like who peter's actually told he's like haha you're so fucking stupid yeah um another thing so um when uh when mysterio is like pretending to be nick fury um and he says who else did you tell he notices something is off like why would you reveal that it's an illusion that's a pretty bad idea well so it's um i would say that it's a it's a double bluff right and i thought it was pretty clever because it only just occurred to me right when um he asked him again who did you tell i was like oh fuck this could be fake too uh i don't know and um that's part of what he destroys peter with he makes him question his perception of deciding things between real and reality and so he's stressed the fuck out at the end of that scene um and then of course fury is just like just tell me and he's like yeah yeah yeah okay okay uh so i told this like he's the point is to just completely overload him and that's that's kind of what the whole part of the illusion scene is it's just it's it's an overload of like information input obviously re-referencing his father figure's death yeah sure but like you'd think that after that entire sequence that would only give him more reason to believe that anything that he sees isn't is not real no because the big thing why does he fall so the whole thing with the illusion scene is okay so you make him not trust reality and it's like oh but Mysterio has just been and oh nick fury's here who to tell who's you tell and just yells at him it's like well i can understand especially given the arc that he is going on at the moment if you keep an eye on the scene it's obviously attempt one is point blank he tries and then he sees Peter's like something's wrong and so plan B is okay he's figuring out that there's an illusion what we'll do is reveal that everything is fake except himself ignore me a fury and so he's like i'll kill fury quote-unquote and he shoots him and it's believable for Peter that he's been shot with something that he can survive because of his body armor and he's gonna turn up later and back stab back because back didn't account for it he's just like oh fuck i'm out i'm out of the fucking nightmare illusion sequence and then he's like Peter we need to know we gotta save him who did you tell his men are on the way i think he says we gotta look after him he says the men are tracking down anybody who might know what he's up to so who'd you tell yeah i think that back notices it's not gonna work this way so it's like a plan B of trying to convince him with a double bluff yeah and i think it's really effective double bluff because if fury gets shot at that moment Peter's not gonna be able to put together oh this probably isn't fury either like so much is happening that he can't latch on to anything at the moment but it's enough it's enough to like whittle down his defense i think um i don't know because even then like with uh with the whole okay Mysterio got shot and uh Nick Fury's asking who you told like even that could be fake of course that could be fake but Peter's like confused um i just i mean you would think that sorry go on so um i don't want to repeat it all but like so you just to take every single element of what's just happened and his mental state is almost destroyed and then he's got someone yelling at him to save his friends and he's like yeah yeah yeah i gotta say their names yeah but like his mental state i think would give him even more reason not to trust him because again he doesn't he can't tell what's real what's not right remember central arc of this film that is reinforced consistently is that Peter does not trust himself or does not have confidence in himself so i think it's really sound that somebody who is really lacking in a confidence and belief in himself and his abilities who believes he's already screwed up badly would immediately buckle if nick fury was who he believes to be nick fury is yelling at him remember it's we need to save your friends it's pretty convincing it's um he's back to reality the reality news that existed from a little bit earlier when you saw it briefly before it recovered and then fury's got the wound or at least the thing and to be like yeah that fucking shot me and it's like we did it though and he's limping as well it's just like it's really good like i could totally see spider-man folding on this being like oh thank fuck you save me i don't know i still don't buy it i guess we're not gonna agree i guess my question would be why not well it sounds like from what you said you just you think that he would have clued on right yeah because like again he knows like what the illusion tech can do he knows this is something mysterious probably i would argue that that is that you're right it's a complete stalemate because like this is a state of mind thing and like we think that all the resources the references point to it but you think that there's a chance he probably should have seen it and there is more of a chance of it so this i don't think anyone can prove anything definitively here sure yeah that's fine yeah this is another thing where it's just chats just gonna have to decide who they believe more mm-hmm cool mm-hmm okay do you want to do you got something else that you want to do with the train that i find weird so did he plan for the for the train to show up like at that exact time or did he just oh there's a train i'll just utilize it like he has drawings with cameras so i imagine that he yeah sees the thing coming i picture it's on a set runtime so he knows when the next ones are writing in and you just have to delay picture enough to get on the i think i'm gonna guess lamb early in has a really effective it's germans you know like really really uh good traffic management system and like infrastructure that train probably comes fairly frequently it was one of zola's algorithms that yeah yeah i'm i'm surprised i'm surprised that that's the Nazi train a joke that you came up with rags what a well i i have no idea what you could possibly be referred referencing i think i had a solid joke racism in any other direction i can think so there are six million different examples of better jokes i could have told but i think i settled on a good one um what was i gonna say oh yeah so okay with that let's say um let's say he told uh he told him who he who he told uh after the train has already passed so what was he gonna do was he gonna kill him with the drones oh so you're asking if the train wasn't an option what would you have done yeah that's what i'm saying i'm assuming he's planned so that the train will be the option but i i would yeah i picture he can kill him with the drones yeah okay so what i'm saying here is like so if he uses the train to like if he uh gets the information out of him at a time where the train isn't there for him to kill him and that's pretty lucky because with the train he assumed i would kill him but it didn't kill him which i'm fine with yeah i would assume that if i if i didn't know the full extent of his abilities i would assume the bullet train would have killed him so that's fine but like if it was not in an instance where he was he could use the train and if he had just used the drones then that's game over well he has full control over the illusions so he got to pick the time when the illusion ends yeah two two things to clarify is one if the train wasn't coming for another two minutes he can just toy with peter and the illusions until it gets here um secondly if he kills him with his drones it looks like peter spiderman spider monkey whatever he's been shot to death while instead he's in an accident where he got hit by a train i think the train is easy to cover up then we don't have to do anything he's gone well i mean yeah i guess like with the train um yeah you can just because here's the thing what i'm what i'm thinking about right now is like okay if he shoots him with the drones i guess he'd have to he'd have to dump the body somewhere which i i know the edith drones they probably can't just pick people up like that he'd have to pick him up himself and he'd probably have to walk to um i don't know wherever he's gonna dump him um so yeah i would imagine that would take a longer than just waiting for the train so yeah that's fair shall we um um come back or do you want to keep going yeah let's let's fly back to winner soldier okay okay uh so we got up to the part where it is the well they've gone back and met fury well friend take that one well yeah we get a little bit of a flashback set while we're getting told that he's about to get his mind wiped old bucky and this right here this little shot has reminded me of something that i definitely want to make sure we mention uh i i'm not saying this to southpaw all to sk okay night this is not directed at either of you i don't give a fuck if this happened in the comics okay just putting that out there so it's pretty convenient that in the first avenger bucky falls off a train into a chasm like a pure like to find that body to even know that he fell or where he fell pretty intense but they found him before he died they dragged him all the way to hydra dot com wherever they live they gave him they gave they gave him an enemy soldier the most impressive prosthetic arm i've ever seen and then they they go to the lengths of brainwashing him instead of and giving him a super soldier serum which by the way they were unable to replicate successfully he's the only one that they were successful with and he happens to be steve's best friend which is something that is really useful to this film in terms of saving steve again and again however had this been anyone else let's say someone they could control fully because they're a hydra agent it would have been over there is a lot in that that's incredibly convenient to this plotline what do you think yeah i don't disagree yeah someone's gonna say but bucky was with the soldier in the comics and i just i just wanted to bucky was winter soldier in the comics well then find a more logical way to have bucky become winter soldier in the movie you yeah you want to know something funny in the comics of what is it amazing spider-man issue 13 you want to know how the conflict with mysterio gets resolved how he flat out just tells him his whole plan he tells him that it's all illusions he tells him that it's all fake because oh he thinks he can kill spider-man anyway even though you've just told him very useful vulnerabilities to take you down i don't yeah so it's like if it's in the comics like that doesn't mean it's a good thing yeah we're i think that we should have clarified this or disclosed this at the very beginning of of the discussion as kid i have a strict buck the comics policy oh beautiful especially when especially when a lot of them are really stupid like the a lot of the older comics they have a lot of really crappy writing it's not like i've presented panels of real spider-man comics in the text chats here or bringie or rags and mawler to read out together that's never happened on that ever i think they're great so bringie carry right along so we get the part where we find out that fury's alive and we kind of covered that so we get the big plan which is that they are going to use these little cards to put them into the hella carrier and fury is under the belief that these cards can be used to bring the hella carriers down safely he says that they can salvage them um that's really important keep that in mind so uh oh well i guess it would be relevant now to which uh captain america says no we're gonna destroy the hella carriers we're destroying shield shield is corrupt we need to take them down um and we're gonna get them to blow themselves up everybody unanimously agrees on this nobody has a conversation about whether or not there's a lot of collateral damage that they should be worried about or even whether or not cap is even right on principle about the idea of getting rid of the hella carriers rather than salvaging them and it makes you wonder if cap is aware of nukes yes because he says that nobody should be allowed to have hella carriers and as it turns out hella carriers saved the day and age of ultron and avengers and avengers that's true um but ultimately yeah his decision is nobody gets to have these we destroy these instead of bringing them down um now i suppose we'll get back to the consequences of that decision but i think it's important to note that there was no discussion about the necessity of bringing them down like that we must that we only have a short window of time to take them down um and if they do have a short window of time then fury's an idiot who doesn't even know what his own tech does to uh to bring it down um or it's it's the other problem where he just committed to that choice um and the consequences of that choice well i suppose we'll get back to those later um however before they go to do their mission which is pending there's not a lot of time before insight launches cap thinks it's a good idea to snake into the museum and steal his suit um man talk about priorities he would rather steal his old suit when we watched and e-fat fans you'll know this batwoman i believe the reaction to episode three season one uh we took major issue with batwoman deciding which by the way really cool idea you're trapped in a building with loads of civilians that need your help but you're not in your suit so what do you do she goes home redesigns the whole suit and then comes back and helps them uh nowhere near as bad in this but holy fuck this is not what cap would do yeah this is really not what cap would do um you start adding up these makes you think um so anyway um they get they managed to break into shoe and headquarters whatever they they somehow did that uh without anybody noticing them or stopping them um and then he starts up oh wait so he needs to walk it back yeah i don't know exactly where you're going with it but if we were to with the information we have that they have what's the plan now i can think of a pretty good one i'm gonna go with this okay so everybody gets their super spy coverage face things we take the positions of all of the members of the board because apparently they're able to do that which by the way i think is a problem but i'm gonna let it go because uh you know they're just that good and they've got all the resources um you know and so you you do that you go up to the room with pierce any one of you can just either knock him out or whatever you want you then pose as pierce because they can do that with this technology and you just order a delay on insight you're like nah gotta be delaying it in fact we're gonna be sending down the the board members for an inspection and then they go down to the the areas specifically the areas with the blades and then they're just like yeah we're just gonna have a look oh yeah we're your bosses you can't do anything about this and so yeah um nobody dies the neutralized all the tech and if fucking cap wants to destroy them i'm sure we can find a way to do it without killing many civilians but nobody cares to try this plan out because there's not enough action in it no that's right they need to do a one where the the broadcast could be shut down immediately but they just don't um but yeah um uh in terms of like uh now we we already talked about because when i look at my notes all i've got is cap on the helicarrier is pink plot armor but then i also write falcon dodging all of the helicarrier ammo stuff is complete plot armor so like we already covered that um so i guess it would be going back to the the pierce part where they've gone upstairs strike team goes in they're like who we bad guys we're not gonna arrest pierce we're gonna arrest you um and so yeah and then they have then there's all that stuff happening outside and he's like oh you know if you could if you could kill these bad guys would you do it with a flick of a switch he says no and pierce grabs his pistol to shoot him but then black widow jumps in now she punches him and for the next 10 15 seconds while the action scene is happening he is standing there with his phone he could press the button because she is wearing the little tag to burn a hole in all of their sternums it's over it's done um and it's just want to highlight the hilarity of this image yeah yeah you got you got that it's uh man oh really bad um and i mean we didn't talk about this with the plot armor but having the control center of the helicarriers unguarded at the bottom protected by glass what the hell is that about some of the stupidest ship design i think we've ever come across that's really bad and there's no no people defending it either what no well but this is interesting i got lost when i was thinking about this by watching this film again so winter soldier knows to go down there to protect it how does he know that without hydra also knowing meaning they should have people defending it yeah problem big problem yeah well uh because that's when i was the whole final battle scene to happen yeah i mean out of curiosity how do you guys feel about winter soldier right now just getting a barometer um yeah i think i might lower it to possibly a two um i don't because i haven't noticed like a lot of the stuff that's being pointed out right now it's like goodness gracious yeah i think that was so where was spotting man for you guys but you know where was that um for now you said i want to two yeah so what i want to do is take all of what was said into account reassess it and see do all of these hold and when i revisit it whenever i revisit it um but for now i'm sticking with like yeah a two yeah okay i want to rewatch i want to rewatch the movies after the debate to yeah come to a full termination um i suppose because we kind of covered the plot i was just going to say why is it that natasha romanoff's alpha access past both exists and hasn't been removed uh so basically she said she was he says you have to have two alpha passes and she's like yeah i got few reasons like why is yours on the record why wouldn't they've removed it also why do you have alpha level access you're a soldier your spy like why would you have alpha alpha level is presumably from the top yeah well it gives you the power to dump all secrets online there's no fucking way she has that power so oh by the way clarified terms of the 20 million debt we've been saying the 20 million debt by the way for anybody who that's pierce he says they're gonna give 20 million on screen we see like 700 he says 20 million anyway it's still a lot of people law we're gonna say about the alpha level thing oh so i guess it seems that they need fury and pierce to uh both like do some sort of confirmation before uh getting access to like the the files but it's like how did fury sneak in his like they cleared all his access they got rid of his clearance it's like how did how was that possible i don't know oh wait sorry if i made a mistake is it is it the two alphas are fury and pierce because in that case that's even worse how come it's only an eye scan well yeah it should just check and see if they have a face i i'm more so just like jesus christ what if you're under duress like there's no proof you just you wanted eye scan and that's you like authorize we need to alphas get your eyes and like i don't know that surely there's passwords there's further like yeah friends guys so i've always had this this issue so he says you need to look with both eyes open so and like that's how they're able to do this is they apparently didn't erase uh right right nick fury's biometric for his his left eye which is it i was gonna so that's the thing that was where we're gonna go next i sorry just to clarify so it's not black widows it's it's pierces but the requirement to use it is literally just his eye it didn't actually like you don't need anything else i just i'm sorry i just didn't think they would have shitty security uh but secondly the scan was literally for his patch so now you have the the right dimensions for this patch i think um i think we'll all agree alpha level access that's going to be limited to a very select few like and i'm glad that it's only fury and pierce these are very high ranking members now if you think of the pool of alpha level access as possibly like 20 registered one of them is going to be wonky eye you know like what the fuck is this and it's like this is someone who has access to this apparently and it's like not get off the system who is that it's like registered to it has to be it can't just be wonky i it has to be registered to something but yeah that would have to be registered to fury like or unless he calls it like you know rumsfeld and he just like who the fuck is rumsfeld i think the computer said hey nicholas j fury i think the computer says nicholas j fury that's fucking dumb yeah so it's like in another thing that comes to mind it's like a dead person has alpha level access i think that's funny yeah i i've never understood this part and it's crazy because obviously it enables the rest of the plotlines to come nice one went to soldier i guess you did it i think oh they could have hydra could have shot down fury's helicopter as it was landing and then that would be the end of the movie too because it would obviously be identified as non-friendly yeah yeah the thing is like so this is the thing about having stakes this high right it becomes really really important to make sure that you don't have issues like this present in your story because every time because you keep on mentioning 20 million people die if this doesn't happen right every time that there's an issue like this it's very consequential there's like yes sort of a you need like the higher the stakes in your story the like the higher the stakes the writing of that story should be just a little general solidity well fun just to make it clear everybody the higher the stakes are for you to make sure that that story is airtight that's the point i was trying to get but you know just for the sake of clarity there are more of these in winter soldier there are more i don't know the big list of these look i am all in favor of exploring all of them you see because again you know what i said about earlier about how i don't really care for hot takes oh my god my goodness gracious are you an illusion oh um yeah sure uh i'm just trying to keep track because um because i know where a lot of this leads um in terms of we talked about bumping into and then um oh do we want to do we want to talk about how the final fight scene is like absurd let's do it yeah oh fuck you not crushing the blade i mean i mean there's that that's not even it but there's that you're right because if he crushes that blade the movie's over i'm just saying i've noticed that from day one there's there's a plenty of these things that i trust me i've noticed these from day one yeah um it should yeah uh so he could have crushed it um they're having a little fight he has two guns uh when they're both getting knocked away one of them is just out for the rest of the movie the other one is there but only when convenient even though i think it's sitting on top of the railing well i have no idea how they're getting around to where they go i'll just um a quick guide to the life of this pistol uh in your own copies i can't give you the timeline but uh it's just the typing this is so loud so uh he obviously attacks with the two pistols they both get knocked out of his hands and we see one of them fall and settle on the railing it's just chilling out there it's right there for those at home just chilling out next shot that you see of the railing it's gone you can't see that pistol again it's just out um the next time we see it is when they both fall into the ground and winsel just picks it off the ground um but luckily for him it not only managed to teleport because it was settled it manages to get to the exact place that he ended up falling down after this fight and if it wasn't just you know sometimes you wish you're like if only it was that silly but um cap shield is knocked out of his hand and it happens to fall right in the place that winter soldier ends up falling and so you can pick it up now you might be thinking yourself guys you might be thinking well that's useful for winter soldier and you're like no no it's not useful no because it the shield the shield tricked winter soldier it made him think that it would be useful but instead he doesn't fuck i don't know how to just it's just so annoying he thought he's you know what it's cap's property he figured he should have it back so he threw it out of him so that he could then use it to block all of the bullets that he fired at him so for cause and effect here he throws the shield and it bounces up and then down to cap which is very rare people who throw that shield usually bounces back to him but this time it went straight to cap if only just he had shot at him instead of using the shield would have killed him in the back sad you win game over again but it gets worse gentlemen we have two shots he shoots later at least so he still got shots in that gun the shield is thrown at him he boops it away and then he goes in for the knife attack you have a gun he has no shield you got him and then possibly the funniest part i get if you guys can pull up your copies because i just want to do this for the people at home i'm doing it this way okay so people at home can you see winter soldier right there he's like yeah i got him he stabbed cap he's tossed him into that wall he's got most advantage right now it's going great you see that right there that's where the card is it's right there it's like two feet away from winter soldier next time we see him boom he's on the ground oh no he's fallen over he slips over well he was trying to get the thing and then by grabbing it which by the way crush it obviously went over that it's done so but it gives up his leverage and caps got him and it leads to cap neutralizing him he slipped on a banana peel unfortunately and he lost him the fight yeah well he could have so pulled it back with the clutch victory when cap's trying to climb up to put the thing in the little chip thing but he's shooting at him and he just are you talking about the time when winter soldier disappears for 40 seconds yes that's yeah the movie that saves the lives of all the people in the last few seconds wait no before that while he's climbing up to put the chip back in because he isn't gone for 40 seconds quite yet he's shooting at him he's not landing the shots but somehow from an angle where he shouldn't have been able to hit cap he hits him and that incapacitates cap nearly until the end of the countdown but just make sure we got the shot right so he's shooting at cap from very far below here once cap gets above that railing he's got no shot but somehow magically he still does but and then and it's funny it's funny how it just flips that the problems to stack on he doesn't have a shot here but for the next 40 seconds he doesn't make any attempt to get up there to stop cap for sure he just stays on the bottom until the helicopter starts shooting at each other and then he gets crushed with the soldiers literally teleported out of the film to prevent the hero from winning the day yeah fascinating pretty dumb now you know what that's a lot that was a lot of recovery and you know what you guys have talked and I know you have before focused much on the main star of the show Peter Parker do you guys have any thoughts on the boy Pete can we go over that yeah we'd like to go over that later first I wanted to say as an update of what I think of it right here so after going over all the instances of the plot armor I'm gonna be like yeah it is way worse and way worse significantly worse okay so what you got then if you don't want to talk about Peter Parker um alright so do you want to talk about shield now no you're talking now what do you got oh I was talking to them so oh yeah let's talk about shield that's okay alright so with shield they don't seem to run a background check on Quentin Beck I'm so glad you asked that you know what I'm so glad you asked that do you just know what I'm saying right here and you want to just uh move go for it though explain your full okay okay so the thing about the scrolls is like oh sorry about shield is like okay if they ran a background check on him it's like okay Quentin there's a Quentin Beck in this world so that's something that keep in mind you monitor his home and he's just suspiciously never home it's like okay that's another reason for suspicion to be raised another thing we know about the scrolls is that in Captain Marvel they've established that the scrolls are capable of seeming like recent memories of their host bodies so that like is the ultimate lie detector so if they had that then yeah they could just turn into Mysterio at some point find out if he's telling the truth and they would know oh this guy isn't telling the truth if they were to turn into Mysterio they basically had access to recent memories which would pretty much guarantee that they like he'd have recent memories of him interacting with his team and plotting basically um the scrolls are able to imitate the memories of the people that they is that recent memories yes that is established in Captain Marvel what does recent memories mean um so I guess I'll give an example because I watched it recently um so Captain Marvel aww um so like Carol says to a scroll did you know the password and I guess it's like something like a password would be recent enough for them to be aware of um I guess that's how far it goes when they were given the passcode um so I don't know recent I guess within like the day I guess I don't it's I hate how they settled the rules it's just it's not clear it can actually make them empty sorry can we so you had the two points right the first one of the background check the second one of the scroll so with the first one there was a quote that Quentin Beck says when he's talking about his plan with his buddies the story you created of a super soldier from another earth named Quentin fighting space monsters in Europe what do you think you can infer from that sentence uh that possibly his name isn't actually Quentin Beck um so is that like what you what you're implying here so that's how that's our first thing first right with the background check this could very well be an alias in which case it's going to be a lot harder for them to be able to verify who he is mm-hmm um so about that so that creates a question it's like okay so then if that's not actually his name then how did he how did Peter transfer control over to him what do we know about either well I mean if Peter Parker was going to transfer ownership over to John Smith I don't know do we do we just imagine that Edith has some sort of way of like it was registered name will be registered now because that's what they call him it's like if you know Edith will know him at the Quentin Beck he means that creature in front of him the Quentin Beck right in front of him whether or not he's named Quentin um but is there no recognition for uh back given he's like a start that there would be other people who live in this world who because if we imagine that like the idea of people from multiple dimensions that there could well be people who look like other people the question is what cause would you have to check if you've seen this dude fly in doing crazy magic so we're like let me double check the stock database or you know it's a see if Quentin if ever guy who might not even be named Quentin Beck who looks similar to you know it's a matter of when Peter's got the Edith glasses on and looks at Beck yeah cause it would show like the names they would pop up would it show his name doesn't that stuff show up when you like turned it on to ask about information uh no it does show the name it shows uh like for example yeah when it's on right when it's on right what if Shield said hey Peter can you check uh if this guy can you use Edith to check if this dude is telling the truth that screenshot doesn't help you though when it's on is it on in the scene where he's with Beck also wait why he didn't know why wouldn't this be answered by the multiverse oh yeah and of course cause the registry now of like Beck this is Beck Quentin Beck right and if they're right and to verify if he's actually telling the truth they can check like like for example his home if he's suspiciously does not have home so can we just are we are we gonna drop the Edith part cause they can't use it the only Peter can use it at this point in time what you were saying like oh with the glasses they can check to see if if uh if it's uh no no I said they could ask him to check they could say hey can you do this man I feel like at this point it's not even something they're even considering anymore he's already helped them out so many times what and he says he's from a different dimension so why would you even believe that like by scanning the glasses that you'd be able to figure anything out about Beck if you believe now that he is from another dimension to come to fight uh aliens and plus if we already have now that this face Quentin Beck whatever this guy is who they can assign the glasses to that he has his own file of like this is Mysterio why would they even be a problem with the name that shows up would be Quentin Beck um hmm I don't know because isn't this the thing that shield tries to do typically in verifying uh people's stories especially like even if they come from other well I mean we keep saying shield is this shield this is like fury and hill and their like thing that they're doing we keep calling them shield but what are they well yeah but they I guess they're like shield agents and you're right obviously what I mean it seemed to me what we saw of them might actually be their team and that they have some kind of access or coordination with possibly other groups but that's the problem so little world building is done in anything post game now that we don't really know what everyone's capabilities are yeah um I don't know how much credence you want to give the uh the Marvel cinematic universe wiki but they do refer to the um the the lady that tells Peter to take off his clothes is a shield agent okay yeah I mean it's it's it's not big deal it's just the idea of like what what is shield at this point in time yeah sure there's there's there's a pretty big difference if it's just like some private outfit by Nick fury and if it's shield yeah um yeah uh so I guess I guess the the broader thing was Peter the glasses are not on in that scene so he wouldn't see his name and even if he did I don't see why it wouldn't be the file that he probably has now that is I am Quentin Beck and fury did not have access to either so he couldn't have used that to uh to to get that information and as for whether or not he would feel compelled to I mean Mysterio has already come in saved his life and Maria's life and Talos she's not quite as distrusting as a fury I can believe we have real fury would be super hardcore like doing that but Talos has demonstrated to be a little less smart than fury sure but if you think that um if sorry if Talos was being sent by Nick fury to literally pretend to be him then don't you think that he would uh train him or prepare him in some way to act to react in situations the way that he would react it's kind of um I don't know how much he could prepare someone for that yeah let's say how much how much could you do and uh unfortunately we don't know the nature of fury's uh leaving we don't know if it was rushed well what what I would go with is like okay so if the scrolls are this like aren't as competent if they're just this incompetent then I don't know that this is incompetence I don't know that fury could have possibly known that they would have to deal with a guy who could do this it seemed to be that they were more so a stand-in yeah not that they had to do something like this it's better for them to be there to have a certain presence in the world than for no fury at all to be around fury's eyes and ears on earth while he's doing cosmic stuff and of course you need somebody to give Peter the glasses right and you need somebody to be to be doing that right now yeah so that that would be what I would say about all of that I don't know because with with how shield works like especially as we see in the first Avengers movie the thing that they consistently do is that they run background checks on their heroes they even keep tabs on them like you know in Winter Soldier, Nick Fury was he tells him that the place was bugged and then Pierce later on says did fury tell you that he was the one who bugged it it's like so he does keep tabs on the heroes that that are on his team because he's not entirely trusting of them real fury so we're dealing with we're in post end game and they've got nothing to really work with in Mysterio like does he have an apartment they can bugs probably not he's probably got way he probably goes invisible before he ever goes back to his layer sort of thing and as even if they did the background check and found out that there was a guy who looks like him who worked for Tony Stark I don't know if that's even and even if you knew that he worked on buff I don't even know if that's enough for you to be like maybe he's creating illusions to trick us because that was specifically like holograms to be used in like like a setup like as a projectors to for a stage not like that you would be able to use that text create these incredibly brilliant illusions and even then seems like he's helping you so I don't know what a background check would necessarily yield for him especially if Quint Beck is in his name which I think it's reasonable to infer that it's not right but yeah but the thing about you know oh well he's helping you like you can say this about Hydra as well because Hydra the situation with Hydra is literally bad guys pretending to be good guys so they even have president for the fact that just because someone's helping you doesn't mean you should just fully trust them I mean I imagine that Fury wouldn't have but this is Talos he's not quite the same as Fury trying to keep up with Mysterio in a way I have a question he was sending so I guess the idea is he only sent Talos to to give the glasses to Peter and like that's it right nothing else I would say that the broader objective the problem is that we don't fully know what he's doing so it's hard to say the soundness of his plan but based on what we have all I can imagine is it's better for people to think that I'm around even if it's a slightly inferior version of me then it would be for me to not exist in this world but this is subject to change depending on how future MCU projects yeah sure I mean it depends on what the explanation is it could be stronger or weaker it could be stronger or weaker it depends we'll have to see what comes of it in future I think all of this helps in explaining why Fury is behaving in ways that are a little out of character throughout the movie he's a little bit harsher he's a little bit meaner more standoffish the thing that gave it away to me was Fury's one of his traits is really good at dare I say manipulating slash accounting for his heroes emotional states he knows how to do it and he fumbles it with Peter and I was like he wouldn't have fumbled it that's ridiculous and it's not him okay I was just when I was first seeing it it was the fact that he just he acted a little bit more bumbling this time around than he usually does it's a way where you watch his behavior and it's like I can believe that that's the guy from Captain Marvel not Nick Fury you know I think that Samuel L. Jackson does a decent job at playing Ben Mendelsohn so so what else do you have? so if you're sending him to ensure to the world yeah we do have Nick Fury is still around it's like okay then you would want him to be prepared to physically be qualified to be like Nick Fury because if you don't do that then that can I thought we didn't talk about the whole thing of just like whatever training you give I'm not sure that Talos could have ever been prepared for the role of Nick Fury or yeah fully even the role of Nick Fury yeah like you knew your parents but if that would be no one at all I guess is the question then somebody who just isn't as good as you at it I guess like with the whole they need to give Peter the glasses thing like would it that's one reason why you might want to have Fury around a fake Fury what if crazy things are happening on Earth and you need someone to let you know but hey you can have that guy double up and pretend to be you and keep a tab on things because I mean if there's no Nick Fury hmm make sure wonder about how like much easier it might be to be able to get away with certain things well the thing is for me I guess it's that um if someone that's impersonating Nick Fury fucks up um as impersonating as Nick Fury um that could basically fall back on Nick Fury like Fury is basically taking a risk by having anyone impersonate him and essentially take it to mantle he's taking a risk if there's nobody around at all yeah and it seems to me that Talos is like his secretary almost his eyes and he is yeah and he owes him big time well because when he called he's like oh hey so you know things didn't go as plans and you know people wonder where the events are it's like yeah it seems almost like that's his role he's like hey so if the happening's on earth yes he does like oh or maybe he's I mean I don't know what that means other than he might be working on it like he's got the information he needs hmm uh see ya yeah I'll think on that one I think that could work I don't know I'm gonna check on them when I when I rewatch uh see what else okay so um right before the prog fight they say like you know they still won't evacuate the city right so why is that the case if shield has proof of the elementals being real as we like we have president of this from the three other elementals and they have proof of when they'll be there and that they will be there with satellites so why don't they evacuate prog uh I don't know that proof is substantial enough picture yourself as prog you're like we have footage of this weird rock monster another one's gonna come in your city he's like the fuck is any of oh also we got like a giant festival that makes us a shit ton of money so um yeah but the thing is it's like um was that it's like the Jaws thing right where it's like oh they're sharks well this is like our biggest day of the year so fuck that it's kind of the same situation I'm guessing and yeah I just I don't know that they have enough reason to believe it will be like well it has happened three times and mysterio knows mysterio and shield knew that this stuff would happen so but like this is prog and who was shield to them you know again you gotta remember post end game this is a different build like I could just totally picture them being like fuck off um would they would they believe mysterio though this isn't the whole point like um but they believe that these things are real he's from an alternate dimension um they would have mysterio vouch for them to well mysterio is brand new on the theme at this point this is part of the thing he's still got work to do to really establish himself as like the hero that everybody should listen to yeah because they haven't even heard of him until Venice right our characters well doesn't know who he is yet until Venice that's right yeah that's where mysterio comes from man of mystery me okay um yeah I think that's fair enough uh the last thing I think we touched upon this briefly but um Taylor says like you know people are asking where the avengers are and I don't know what to say to that um but it's like okay so did he know where they were um this whole time or what what what's the what's the situation here I'm gonna go ahead I would just assume like he has no way to contact doctor strange doesn't even know where to begin with contacting someone who's in a different dimension um and then well it's like wonder is best bet is those people what were they called in uh were they shield in in one division that's what so you might be able to get a line with sword and then they're not going to tell them anything about what's happening in Westview like yeah okay I wouldn't even and we can we could safely assume that they're factoring in one division when writing this right um maybe well so let's pretend for a second that one division doesn't exist then I would be saying I guess he has no way of contacting wander she must be up to something and that we'll find out what it is in a later installment which technically one division does account for that despite it's shittiness she's off the grid yeah you know and and yeah in another dimension it's just like this is stuff that fury would find hard I imagine and so he's he's especially out of his depth uh he's doing the best he can alright um I don't know I'll think about that when I when I go back to it I think that that could be valid um when I head back to um soldier we're um we're at a point now we can start doing some summarizing for total damage like you guys still have some points left to make oh yeah um I guess with with you want to go with Peter Parker you know what sure when it's let's do it we are being southpaw about that well I mean that's case the one that's uh you know more qualified to handle this I think sure therefore so um stereo says that him and his whole battalion could not stop the fire elemental right um and he's also told that nobody else is available to help right yeah oh why is it that he's just like no I'm not going to do anything I'm going to go on vacation so you know what I feel like there's a lot of context that you've left out in that summary of a of that scene that's just happened you know what I just want to go on vacation so he starts with a lot of things when he gets explained this first he's like oh you know like I just I'm just friendly neighborhood spider-man's like why is this relevant well remember his frame of mind he's just come back from going on a massive war and died he died which is the important thing as well and his mentor died and he's been doing stuff for a while said nobody to talk to he has no confidence in himself he doesn't actually think that he's in a position to help and he's kind of right because he can't help nearly as much as Mario can deal with this situation and every person that he lists who could help out is more qualified than him now as you said he's that they're not available so it's like oh there is that to which he immediately moves on to he's worried about the consequences of revealing himself to the world and the damage that that's going to have on his life that's a thought that he has whether or not that's relevant or like whether or not that is broadly relevant to the case that he's trying to make whether or not he think like whether or not that's a really good point is not what matters what matters is what does he think is a good point what's his frame of mind but I feel like the big thing that really helps out in terms of sort of demonstrating what position Peter is in in terms of his character is fury says alright you can leave why would fury let him leave if it was a world-ending threats Peter must be thinking so firstly I would like to go through like the whole yeah point by point sure yeah yeah so the one word like you mentioned he died and that Tony died and I'll start there so here's the thing despite that he's still willing to help out the water monster yeah his god instinct is to help that's who Peter Parker is good guy right but I think with that saying that that gives I don't think the whole well Tony died and he died is enough to stop him from saving people if he's if he was willing to help out in that situation especially if this is why I buy that especially this time around you have a you know a monster that's probably going to destroy the world so what people do out of instinct tends to tell you a lot about who that person is Peter when he sees a threat and sees the people are in danger in front of him immediately jumps in without any regard for his safety or even his secret identity he just jumps in he helps because that's who he is when he's in a situation where his brain can start telling him things like he's overthinking things which we know he's doing you can start to trick yourself and say things that you don't really believe or things that you don't actually fully sort of subscribe to a like things that things that don't really hit home to who you really are and I think here's the big thing if fury had pushed back on Peter more do you think he would have like run off like run away do you think that's what would have happened at the end of that scene what do you think he would have helped I think he would have he would have helped from the start I don't see any reason you think he would have helped from the start you do from well if he if once he's told that nobody can help in that Mysterio couldn't handle it's like yeah from there he would have helped he was told that Mysterio couldn't handle it even though he saw Mysterio handle it they're asking for his help that's true but what do you mean the reason I say it's different is because the fire elemental was said to be the most powerful one and that's the one that destroyed his world it wasn't it wasn't the one but you know what Peter got pushed back Peter expected pushback when he talked about a secret entity thing and then he didn't and then he left if he got pushed back he definitely would have helped he would have he wouldn't have run away like if Fury said nah you're helping us like you are you're not leaving Peter's not running away he's gonna help yeah that's because he's surprised like oh what I was trying to do actually work like he was like he's trying to get out of it with fake excuses fake excuses these are legitimate points we can we can go over that well we're on the whole like Tony died he died do you agree like that would not be enough for him to not be willing to help people to help people when he sees that there's somebody else who can help and it's not right in front of his eyes because and I feel like just immaturity is an element that needs to be remembered he's a kid like why do you why do we believe that he would be totally in the right frame of mind to be able to jump in and help and just be so eager when we already know that he's not doing well because he does that in Homecoming he does that in Infinity War he did before he died yeah before he died but he did it in this movie when the thing was right in front of him when the thing was right in front of him yeah he did but all those other ones out before he died okay would you be happier if in the scene with the water monster he turned his back and walked away no because that would be character assassination oh so it's not then right so he actually did help when he saw that monster in front of him right but I don't have an issue with that one I'm talking about the one at Prague yeah but you're saying that this supports the idea that he would immediately jump into it like that he would presented with the choice of hey we you know help us with this one that that just immediately supports the idea that he would if the states are they let him leave though so what are the stakes if they let him leave if you try to make it so if fury if fury says this is like a big deal and then he says no I know sorry no I'm not I know and then furious like okay furious clearly not concerned that this is like gonna end the world at least from Peter's perspective no he that was his whole plan he was trying to make fake excuse no so they're not fake excuses you keep saying that but they're not well I mean we can get into that but we're just hold on yeah okay so point by point in terms of like the things that he says so number one I'm a friendly neighborhood Spider-Man this is like beyond me do you think that that's an illegitimate point for him to bring up that is an illegitimate point because why why be a friendly neighborhood Spider-Man if there's no neighborhood yeah that was before he died right but we already brought up the fact okay he died and Tony died he was still willing to help out with the water monster yeah that's one right in front of him that didn't seem like a world ending threat so so so the thing that he does I feel like it's really important to make this distinction do you think that there is no difference between the thing that you do out of instinct and the thing that you do when your brain is starting to talk for you um one thing out of instinct out of instinct you have less time to think and understand what yeah it's more true to what you actually believe I would say what you do out of instinct right but when you contribute and I think I think that I don't think that this is I think that this might just be a difference of perspective but you know what you can overthink things you can just have irrational things pop into your head that misleads you that is entirely possible when you have more time to think than when you have less time to think less time generally it is the thing that is your gut reaction of like this is right this is what I need to do and that's what Peter does the gut reaction is help when his mind starts playing tricks on him it's like oh wait no I'm not I can't help here no I I'm worried about my secret identity no I I don't want to get my friends in trouble or when he's told that the stakes are the like the entire world and yeah but then they let him leave they let him leave he was expecting to be fine he doesn't know that they were going to let him leave though he was expecting more pushback from fury he was shocked that he didn't get more pushback from fury and that leaves me to believe that yeah but here's the important part if he got pushed more do you think that he would have stayed and helped I don't know um what do you mean you don't know you think he would have run away you really would have run away the answer is yes I'm not saying that he would have definitively run away I don't know how he would have reacted back I don't know how much more pushback he would have had to have gotten because you can see that oh fury fury says this will end the world we need you we need you you're coming you think that Peter would have run away if fury said that no so then I think we can agree that this is not character assassination then because it means that when push comes to shove he's going to help in that immediate moment he won't run away he will not run away he's not going to turn his back like if the fire element popped up before him he wouldn't have run away if he hadn't gone to Prague well the problem is that we're dealing with a hypothetical of well if if fury did something differently than he did in this yeah so fury did something differently that's right the point the point is making if fury did anything differently the impression Peter is given is that he's not needed but that's not true because again he was just told that you can't say that no one because he can't go no that's that's after he already tries to give excuses to get out of it it doesn't matter he is let go that's after he tried to get out of it he is let go he is let go so he doesn't believe he's not he's needed if he was needed he wouldn't have been let go hang on hang on so here's the thing he is told that the world will that when Mysterio and a battalion mind you went against the fire elemental they lost and they have nobody else to help them at that point he should know that he's needed except they let him go and in an isolated situation I think you would be right but now you have to factor in every single other mental position he has as well as well just to run down them again right desperate for a break wants to live a normal life is experiencing significant PTSD survived a war died watched his mentor died doesn't believe he's the right person to be the saviour of the world he wants to hang out with MJ and his friends he's lost literally the person who was guiding him on all things related to superheroes he thinks he's going to blow his cover and put everyone he loves in danger he thinks they're going to be able to handle it he's told he can leave yeah but why would he think that when he's just told that because he's a 6 ton year old who is going through extremely tough shit this is the most stress most like I don't even know how many characters experience more than this in the MCU what are you talking about just because he's a 16 year old that doesn't negate the fact that he was no so that so critical is what it's not about whether he's right it's about whether he believes this to be true yeah but he wouldn't believe this to be true why though because he's just told like once again him mysterious and a battalion could not stop the fire on the mental and he's told nobody else is available so you're going to tell me that he just but then they wouldn't believe me I don't know hang on they don't need him but you're citing a scene that happens you're citing a line that happens afterwards so here's the thing he still tries to push back yes but that doesn't I have a better question though if those excuses are like fake excuses if they're fake excuses would you agree that it is against this character but you're never going to get me on them being fake positions because these are legitimate points to bring up well I'm asking if that was the case would you well what do you mean by fake do you mean like fake is in he doesn't actually believe in them and he's just trying to get out of getting in danger what do you mean yeah well either he wouldn't believe in them or it's out of character to believe in them then how would that be a lie yeah well because I have I have a couple things to say about that and itself so firstly um letting people die just to keep your secret identity um like is Jonathan Kent his Uncle Ben or something like for Man of Steel it's like this is what this sounds like here no you've completely reframed what we're talking about here like you've gone off the rails so this is a reason for him to not want to get involved if he is told that's not a good enough reason then he's just going to do it that's the whole point of this scene he's told that it's chill and he can leave yeah um to be to be analogous with the Jonathan Kent scene it would be like if Spider-Man saw the water elemental walked away and then Jonathan Kent was like good job Peter that was the right thing to do right but he's basically doing this right here except he's just it's just prolonged until like there's more time he has to prepare for the fire elemental and he's doing nothing um well how far do you want to extend this there's a lot of things that heroes don't do anything about in the world they're not constantly active this is a kid who's desperate for a break but here's the thing you can't have a break if the world gets destroyed yeah but remember he doesn't think the world is going to get destroyed that's the key part he doesn't believe the world is going to be destroyed without him after being told that Mysterio and his entire battalion couldn't stop it and that no one else is available he thinks that the world won't get destroyed and the fire elemental shows up the most so they let him go no they don't okay not right away yes from his perspective they do yes they do they let him go no no hang on hang on so hang on hang on hang on so he says um when he says uh what about this uh this person that person and they say no he he makes the excuse oh but my identity yes that worked so there's many things he could have said he was trying to guys already gone I said there's plenty of things he could have said there's all kinds of reasons he could have brought up but none of them are going to be good enough if the threat is truly for the world but to his surprise Yuri concedes he's like yeah you know what you're right you can you can actually set this one out right but he does like well here's the thing his plan going into the um this conversation was to try to find excuses not to do anything about it um no his his plan was not to do that was not his plan he wasn't walking into that bunker immediately like oh what what well no no no I mean like afterwards like after being told the information yeah when he's told hey this is like you know that we you need to come help us do this mission but they don't need him because that's ultimately the important or moreover it's not that they don't need him it's that Peter believes that they don't need him to because they let him leave and you have to remember he also thinks he's kind of useless right now and he thinks he shouldn't be involved in world saving events and that again super stressed out he's terrified I think it's it's so important not to underplay that he is not in a good frame of mind this is what the film's about is getting back up on his feet after he's died and lost the person who's guiding him on being a superhero so I'd like to get back to one of the things that so what the whole identity thing and he says you know I gotta keep my secret identity what good is a secret identity if the world is destroyed I feel like you didn't listen to anything we just said yeah um well I mean I want to go point by point on this because there's a lot of a lot to break down here well the problem is that whatever you want to break down if we can't get past this fundamental point which is not going to agree on this one well I mean the problem with this point is like oh well he doesn't think he'd be useful it's like well he was useful he saved people's lives with the with the water elemental because again we see that what is it like an orphanage nearly gets destroyed by collateral damage and he saves them there so whether or not he is capable of saving them doesn't mean that he would necessarily believe how useful he is people can be incredibly talented at things and believe that they suck that is entirely possible whether or not there's evidence to prove one way or another wait what sorry I was just like he has more reason to believe that if he doesn't show up then people are going to get hurt because again this is totally rational agent yes if he is a 100% rational agent zero stress or anything you don't need to be 100% you don't need to be 100% rational to know this he could believe that he could cause more harm that is not that he caused more harm it's not about whether or not how it's whether or not he believes that it's possible that he could cause more harm right I'm asking why does he believe that what if he fucks up like what if he makes a mistake that would have been better if he wasn't there at all I was gonna say why do we why would you need a specific reference this whole film is self-doubt he just he also doesn't want to die again yes there's that as well and he's a 16 year old kid so you know what right you're gonna die anyway if you don't he doesn't believe that he doesn't believe that like you keep using the reference yeah we keep responding with he doesn't believe that that he has no reason to believe that there's plenty of reason to believe I would believe it I was surprised when they let him go I was like oh I'll be that serious mm-hmm yeah what what a character believes is in discussions like these often in fact it is more important than what the actual case is especially if they're being deceived or if they're not thinking clearly that's the the frame you have to look at things because yeah it's not about whether or not he's totally rational or whether or not he's 100% correct it's about what's in character for him to think what or what anybody sure right but I'm just basing it off the information that he's been told and what you're saying that he believes contradicts what he's been told well it except it doesn't because they let him go so clearly he isn't that important we're talking even after like he's told the information he still tries to weasel out of it yeah but remember remember the first instance where he says I can't help his immediate thought is what about all these other people so it's not like he's just running away from them like his immediate thought is there's gotta be someone else who's better qualified right so how do you paint that as like a full out character assassination that Peter would be like hey maybe Thor would be more useful which is true Thor would be more useful well that's not the issue I take with it the issue I take with it is that he's told that no one else is available he's told that Mysterio couldn't handle it yet he's still trying to get out of it he still plans to do nothing about it under the belief that plans to do nothing is a bit of a jump because again the reason why we keep bringing this up is if Fury had said mother fucker you are working with us to save the world I guarantee you he would have been like okay okay yeah and that's that's the important part how do you run away then I would agree that that's character assassination but that's not what would have happened well what information does would he get out of fury saying that so Fury is just putting the foot down like you are necessary in no uncertain terms but he needs to be told that to understand he's a kid he's literally a kid okay just because you're a kid doesn't mean like it also doesn't mean it's not that way dude he died okay and what's your point here do you think he's not in a good frame of mind yeah like he died he his mentor died in front of him right and he was still willing to help with the water monster so I don't think that holds so do you do you just totally disagree with the idea that what people do out of instincts is like that that is there is a difference between that and what people do when their brain is in play well if he has more time to process and understand the stakes in the situation you would think he'd be more willing to help out so there's something called catastrophizing which is where you just run away with your thoughts and it makes everything seem catastrophic when in reality thinking won't help you you just need to slow down and not be overwhelmed by your thoughts but the things you do out of instinct I think that speaks very true to who you are as a person like if you see somebody in trouble and you run in straight away to help that might not have been something you'd have done if somebody came up to you and said hey we need your help in like another day to come along and help us out with this thing so you don't go on waste to talk your way out of it because you know scared or whatever but like maybe in that moment you run in and help I think that means that you're the type of person who's going to run in and help I think that's an easy thing to pull away from that it kind of goes both ways in that there's people out there that would assume that they would come in and help someone and they wouldn't exactly and I mean there's a personal experience like I had involving someone getting kind of assaulted or abused in a public parking lot without even thinking about starting coming over there to try to stop but the guy got away surely you can see what I mean where if you had more time to think you might rationalize reasons why you shouldn't help that there is a negative thinking going on well yeah I was really thinking about how dangerous it could have been for me it wasn't something I really thought I would ever do because I don't like to be of the mindset where yeah if this thing were to happen in real life and I were to witness it I would totally take action something that's really relatable for a lot of people is when you're a kid and you go to the swimming pool and you're on the diving board or the high dive like one of the things that you pretty much everyone gets told is don't think about it just do it the more you sit up there staring down at the water think about how terrifying and awful it'll be the more hesitant you'll be if you push them in and they're in and they're like oh it wasn't so bad actually yeah and it's kind of like what May said you know don't overthink it just trust your instincts you'll be fine it's like a microcosm for everything that's going on with Peter in that movie yeah and it's happening now because of everything that just happened to him in the timeline yes and I think it's bold and we see that in the instance where he didn't have time to think he just runs it go ahead and more I was just going to say it's bold of them to explore this because I think it's not something that we like to have to rationalize that like we like to think of our heroes as basically perfect a lot of them in terms of their desire to just run out and help it's like this is totally a real thing where he's like Jesus Christ like what am I doing I'm way over my head and it's like we've got another will to save it's like I can't like I don't know and then just throwing out reasons because he's beyond exploding in his head yeah at the beginning of the movie with that interview he's like hey do we have any questions about the neighborhood it's like yeah he's trying to keep it down but they keep asking like what if aliens come back what are you going to do it's like dude he's not in a position to be like dealing with this I'm not sure how I know about it because there's there's just two different brain waves for me happening here one is just the fact that he's being told that there's this imminent potentially world ending threat coming to Prague but then of course there is the trauma that he's experienced because and the fact that he is what 16 17 he's more he's 16 okay it's a little confusing to me because of that homecoming took like he was 15 in civil war and homecoming I thought he was 14 in civil war actually maybe I'm wrong but he's still a teenager he's under 18 yeah whatever age he is it's like you know your brain chemistry is going to be even more volatile and your emotional health at the same time at that age then you will as an adult and so that's the thing to factor in as well I'm just I'm having a difficult time like reconciling those two different things here so I think it's just a disconnect maybe of like the fully rational perspective is you know help but from Peter's perspective there's a lot of conflicting thoughts and a lot of reasons why those thoughts are there it's not unsupported is the big part we have references in the movie that tell us what frame of mind and you know just in the other movies he did die he fought in a massive battle and he nearly got blown up by the reigning fire and then he sure his mentor would die it's a lot to go through especially when you have no one to talk to about it it's why it's why Beck is so able to so easily able to manipulate him because it's like that's exactly what he needs right now do you want to keep going on this one or okay I guess we're just going to we might have to call the stalemate yeah sure and I also I also want to I also want to eat well all right well well it's time I think for my nuclear take I suppose now I'm assuming you guys have been curious about how we so just definitively call that one is worse than the other when you might say if you categorize the issues like what exactly are the issues with the Winter Soldier for character now we've given a pretty strong inkling we are not happy with Zola we're very not happy with Fury we're very not happy with Winter Soldier these are serious damage to all of them but Steve Rogers is thoroughly assassinated in Winter Soldier wait hold on to Claire I think I said earlier that you were happy with Natasha and you were happy with Winter Soldier no I'm definitely not happy with Winter Soldier if I said that that was there's misspeak yeah so if you were happy with Natasha and who else that's it that's it yeah gotcha okay it's inexcusable what they did to cap in Winter Soldier and it's something I felt for a while but just keep quiet on because I know that it's one of the most unpopular opinions in history I kind of gave it away where I've talked about Civil War fixing Winter Soldier many times being that they hold him accountable for the damage he did and I do maybe I do love Civil War a little bit for that because it really helps rescue this film but cap is stupid selfish and insane like psychopathic and he's been destroyed by Winter Soldier but I'd say the other movies in the franchise kind of heal him up until he hits endgame and then he's destroyed again and then he's destroyed again so it's trophic yeah where to begin I suppose by other movies in the franchise you also include Age of Ultron I guess yes I like him in Age of Ultron quite a bit okay in fact I honestly think Age of Ultron compensates quite a bit for this film they take they push him all the way back into being what I think cap is where he's not willing to leave the rock without every single civilian getting off there with him I think that's awesome and totally what cap would say I don't think what he does in this fucking movies anything close to what cap would do so the most important reference will come I guess second the first one we mentioned it but now I want to really hit home how fucking dumb it is he decides to get his suit from I assume the Smithsonian instead of heading to project insight that is set to kill a million well 700,000 people every second counts and he fucks off to get his suit it's not even bulletproof by the way yeah that is painful to watch it actually really cool to see him like take this on in a street clothes if they're going to go head on like this you know no he needs to get his suit all right it's for the it's simple he needs to inspire the people in the shield Triskelion who turn and help him out the people in that building who come to his aid in his moment of need so from what we understand he has decided on his up by the way the theme I I've seen people celebrate winter soldier for its approach of the theme of security versus freedom and I think that's laughable they do nothing with it they literally like hey you know what's better than freedom having a gun to everybody on it so we can kill them before they even commit the crime they literally do fucking minority report and it's like they brush that off real quick caps like I don't like that I think that's bad and no one should have the power to just have a whole handgun to the world and it's like cap we have more than enough of arms of this already I don't know where you've been so it's like really weird but also these things are the very things we need to fight off stuff like Loki like without super heroes this is humanity's best option doesn't get none of this is discussed he just throws it out he's like nah bad idea okay that's nuance and by the end of the film they basically say yeah freedoms better than security we're done it's like what no you didn't answer you didn't explore any of this one of the big frustrations for me is the cap never gives a fuck about why anybody in the world is a part of Hydra why Hydra exists why everyone's ideology is this way he's just like nah you're the bad guys I'm gonna beat you and maybe you might say like well does he need to and it's like I think if you're gonna be trying to broach the subject you should try and get to know the people who are like security first freedom last it's like at least talk about it the film is literally like freedoms the best woohoo let's let's kill everyone it's fucking absurd but putting that aside he's like no one should have the helicarious we blow them up and now if you can see this is where they are cap knows this these motherfuckers could land anywhere look how close we are to civilian populations this is insane cap would never do this we have them neutralized we can land them and he refuses and says no blow them up and it's so funny this film is like but cap if we blow them up while you're on it you might not make it it's like yeah he might not make it all the people who gave their lives to fucking fight for him and the triskelion might not make it all the ones that are still alive all the civilians running around having their day to day might not make it not a single tear shed for any of them don't give a fuck and the trade lives the sad part is nobody else brings it up at least if I was just him and everyone else is like how can we do it it's not it's still catastrophic but having every other character be like yeah this is fine and no he nearly kills falcon and nobody mentions it yeah and but even though he nearly kills falcon we know that he killed innocent people in the triskelion people on his side because there are a lot of target thoughts in the triskelion when they're about to fight that building was not evacuated and that's again it doesn't even matter because it could have crashed into Washington DC what if they went to the to the right or to the left where all the buildings are look at that this is inexcusable this is absurd and it's so fucking funny to watch cap grandstand Tony in age of ultron when he's done this like oh you're a fucking you're a legend aren't you boy you're the one with a clean slate and yeah it's so cool when civil war just shows the people screaming as these things land it's like yeah you did that cap you fucker it's like the biggest floor in his character but it's too much for me I don't believe cap would have done this and if he did do it you have to have him incredibly regretful of the decision but they don't they don't even acknowledge it the ending is like we did it everyone we beat the bad guys like mother fuck what you did he saved us he saved us it's just amusing because like even if no civilians died they could have but shield people died absolutely he traded those lives he doesn't shed a tear for the people who risked their lives to help him out because nobody should have this technology and that's for cats in America alone to decide which is another knock against the theme the messages hopefully one man will decide whether or not we're allowed to protect ourselves as a as a state it's like fuck off mm-hmm the Triskelians and remember the Triskelians are such useful weapons not the Triskelians but the Helicariers the Helicariers are so effective as weapons that at 3,000 feet they can kill people in New York this is really useful weapons well yeah it makes you wonder for whatever issues anybody could pull from the drones the fact that apparently these things are so good that they can kill people 400 kilometers away at 3,000 feet they have guns that can exist I guess they can account for 4,000, do you say 400 or 4,000 miles sorry I think it was 400 miles or 400 kilometers to New York which is part of this the target area to shoot someone from where you are 400 miles away or whatever do you understand how much you have to account for to be able to nail that shot apparently they can shoot it as far west as Columbus or higher for Maryland at 3,000 feet and anybody's gonna bring up any issues to do with how the drones work compared to this so first of all Hydra start World War 3 straight away there is no economy it's over they plan to wipe out 20 million Americans they think this is a good plan and they believe from Zola's algorithm which holy fuck if it said this was the plan I'd be like guys maybe don't trust the 70s AI German I don't know I feel like this is a bit sus but you kill 20 million Americans and the rest of them will submit you know this to be true if you're accounted for the rest of the world if you're accounted for how China launched one nuke and knock out your three helicarriers Russia or the United Kingdom or France as if all of the world is gonna watch you wipe out even the rest of the United States military apparatus yeah they're not just gonna you know you have people who are timid right and they're like oh I'll stay under the boot of Hydra yeah they have the whole family killed they're like okay I'm feeling a little bit different about this now I feel does the algorithm account for this like how everyone's gonna behave after all of their family is killed like I wonder yeah and all of this is for control that's Hydra's ultimate goal because chaos is bad it's not like anything chaotic will happen with half of the people who died in World War 2 dying in a couple of days well to bolster as well again with the theme it's like you see full security they kill everyone it's like what the fuck are you talking about Hydra represents security god to the extremes of murdering 20 million people you're like fuck off that's so stupid how could this ever benefit them really really stupid and again they would have succeeded if Winter Soldier wasn't so fucking stupid that he made all of the worst possible decisions when it comes to assassinating people which assassinates him because we're told yes he assassinates himself the world's greatest assassin of all time he's passed through 50 years he's done all kinds of amazing jobs he's not known by any intelligence agencies he's a buffoon in the entire fucking movie makes all of the wrong decisions I mean and you know he nearly killed Fury at least he's got that he nearly killed him and that's okay because Fury helps finish him off himself off there's a lot of little bonus information coming out here but every time on eFap where I say Winter Soldier is super intimidating in his two movies it's like nah I just met Civil War not Winter Soldier that's right it's not even close he is such an idiot in this movie now can you at least at this point appreciate I felt like mostly this way about Winter Soldier from fucking ages and all I get told by most people is it's the best movie in the MCU the little bit frustrated you know what it's really amusing because when I re-watched Winter Soldier I wasn't paying as much attention as I needed to I arrived it's it's catastrophic yeah I mean here's the thing I didn't think about most of these issues when I first saw the movie I spotted some spotted others over time spotted a lot when re-watching Miss of Heaven but there's quite a bit that you guys are pointing out that I missed too but yet everybody was so sure it was so sure that Far From Harm was so much worse than Winter Soldier do you guys feel any differently on that or are you still undecided um so undecided right now but I think both of them are pretty weak yeah I just like forgive me but I just feel like they're so clear cut the insane issues in Winter Soldier there's so many of them cause it's just you stack them up plot armor and Far From Harm it's like that but more characters were I feel like more characters were assassinated more clearly well yeah Hydra has way more resources than Mysterio for sure and villains as far as villains go holy shit Hydra is fucking stupid completely squandered I think with Zola after this stuff we went over with Zola it seems like yeah they've pretty much assassinated Zola he's a totally he's a very different person that's for sure I was one of the things that I noticed when I first watched the movie was like I don't remember Zola being like this in the first Avenger but see when I first saw it I was like whatever cause 2014 it's like I wasn't pretty really consistent in this stuff all I remember is like seeing shit like Dark Knight Rises that was the first one where I'm like holy shit this plot complete garbage but yeah so when we look at this in totality it's like so Winter Soldier plot garbage it breaks significantly at several points it catastrophically characters is like hey we've got Black Widow but like everybody else it's not even that they're static it's that they're significantly damaged if not destroyed theme really simplistic and not supported by the the text itself like it's not in this it's actually absurd like it believes we should destroy the helicarious that is the correct answer even though that's just so not true and they save Cap's life in Age of Ultron proved them wrong eventually well he was already wrong cause it's just Earth needs defences Cap like are you nuts when you draw the light and they don't address any of this they don't talk about any of it it's simple that's right but like far from home talking about like what is it where do you sit in the world what should you do when everything's like falling apart around you I just I like the the plane scene I think it's fucking fantastic good good stuff great character yeah it's great it's on theme and it's on character and and then it's like world-building far from home doesn't do a great job this movie just Iron Man doesn't exist all of these other entities don't exist it doesn't take account of anything that came before and it certainly can't really factor in as well into what comes afterwards it absolutely fucked Joss Whedon up he didn't even know that we were going to get rid of Shield yeah why do people like this movie so much as the thing why is this movie so popular I think I can tell you go for it I think firstly it's well-paced and as a movie in terms of things are constantly kind of happening you never really I think it's paced well for general audiences to reach onto it and keep with it there's not really many scenes that I think most people would go oh can this get over so we can go to the next thing it has that vibe of a action spy thriller almost it's very it's one of those surface in terms of movie this is very much a Hollywood look at the heroes fighting the evil bad guys actions, suspense, explosions gunshots a little bit of character sprinkled in super interesting thing to figure out what people do like about it ok rags was almost a test subject for this and I didn't blame him whatsoever the only time I've remembered this was in prep for this debate I said to rags how did they get to the Nazi AI I was like oh you know they arrived by car no no no what led them to the Nazi AI and it's like I don't remember I couldn't remember I tried to remember and I couldn't what took them where did they go after the Nazi AI what was the information they gained where did they go and it's like I don't know if you so people who've seen this movie really hard to recall how everything connects but you don't care because the action scenes are really cool and uh you really like like all the actors are on point and it's really a big action and the stakes are so high and you get loads of revelations stakes are high it's a very cleared good it's bad music is good and again like someone who says like this is their favorite MCU movie I would have loved to have asked them those questions it's like what do they get from the USP they'll be like oh sorry that's already giving them too much information they'll be like oh yeah I think they found it because you know they yeah they you know they were looking for uh they're vaguely recalling the actual plot points they just get lost in the movie as they as they watch it yeah things move really quickly and to be honest with you I'm pretty sure it was only within the last couple of days the USP scene was something that I was like I need to actually listen to this because I've never really listened to it like how did they get it and it's just really strange you try and figure out what even they're saying that happened and it's very very like movies full of it and um yeah I think they did a fantastic job of sort of it's kind of like Spider-Man 2 I think it's um it's that elusive elusive element I don't know what we'll call it but a movie if they has that element with all kinds of shit is it called fun? could be entertainment it's like it's a fun movie to watch there are so many ways to um to essentially capture fun because like a lot of us can get a lot of fun out of stuff making sense someone else might be bored by that and they just want to see the silver ball roll across and then blow up and Natasha jump on top of Bucky and try and try and kill him with her wire your fights well uh yeah I don't know obviously there's probably more details both sides could go over with both movies but I feel like the case has been made like my goal like I said was to really gun through a lot of what's wrong with Winter Soldier I feel like at this point there could be extra things that Mean Fringon could mention to hurt it more and more but uh the the the number for me is it's a 2 and it's it's just it's sitting like a sad clown on a 2 it's a really low it's really low in the MCU oh yeah this is the MCU and it's worse and people are like what this is worse than I thought I remember when I I don't know it's just it's a lot worse than I thought even after my my role watch for the endgame video it's probably only going to get worse over time because speaking from experience with Spider-Man 2 there's been like more and more discussions that me and Eskimo have had about that movie and how inconsistent it's like so Harry thinks that Spider-Man Kill is dad he knows that there's this newspaper called The Daily Bugle with an anti Spider-Man bias why don't you go to the Daily Bugle but it's that sort of thing right there's implications about the first movie's ending sets up that's completely ignored in the second movie and I like completely missed that shit while I was like gunning for that film I was gunning for it hard and it's like it's one of the things where when there's this many things when there's this many central fundamental issues with the story it's only going to like multiply over time it's like the last Jedi I'm excited to revisit it and you know it's it's people when you hear like oh Far From Homes like Winter Soldier is worse than Far From Home it's one of those things where it's like nah come on nah no way do you mind if I yes why indeed you start sir do you mind if I publicly drop my current take on it right now well you guys welcome to do whatever you want yeah wait let me clarify are all five people here happy for this to go out I'm totally happy with this to go out yeah I am absolutely yeah well Rags you're the last one yeah well I suppose it's okay if everybody learns about EFAP's newest incredible hot take why not we do have a reputation to keep dude it'll happen someone will see a new take we happen to go these are the guys that hate Winter Soldier by the way I don't know if I agree with you guys on everything you've said about Far From Home but I don't have particularly any disagreements to voice about the Winter Soldier it's garbage like I mean there's a couple things where I was able to push back but you know I'll be curious I'm assuming you guys possibly feel that Far From Home is in the two categories while would you at least say it's like a 2.5 compared to this is a 2.2 or something yeah honestly I would say yeah like gun in my head like yeah 2.1 or 2 for Winter Soldier 2.5 or 6 for Far From Home what about you yeah yeah probably the same thing it's like given what you guys have given me again without rewatching the movies with all the all the stuff that you've said in mind right I'd go yeah there seems to be a difference in quality between these two movies yeah that's cool I'd be down like you know after not today obviously but at some point like if you want to talk more about the movie and you know in preparation for a little video on making that'd be cool yeah you know what shoot me a message if you want to talk about it it's going to have to be sooner rather than later because this is soon to be flushed out of my brain yeah like I'm happy to not have to look at these notes ever again really revisit these movies but I mean you know what I'm so glad to hear that however if I were to tell you my perspective is that I think that there is a reasonably noticeable difference between these two films I don't think that it's close though I wouldn't call Far From Home a good movie I'm not even sure that I could be pushed up too I think that there are problems for sure and like the way that things hang together yeah but I mean Winter Soldier what score would you catastrophic it would be between 3 and 4 for me with Far From Home but this is just categorically a 2 hey I mean I'm glad that we at least got you guys down to a 4 or 3 but yeah that's that's cool Winter Soldier is worse though that's the worst one I'm just glad that we could drag you down to a 6 yeah yeah and I'm glad that we could finally talk about how Winter Soldier it's not good I do feel a little like a weight is off I could finally be open about what you said I feel like this might be the best debate that you guys have done on your show they're gonna say you buy a South Pole because you're in it cause you're on it yeah even though I'm like on the losing side but like, I don't know we came together we share a very similar standard and all parties involved came away with new information and developed their opinions a little differently I guess we all are different people now than we were when we entered the ball now I really like this I think this is a good format we actually got what we were gunning for this should come out next Sunday Saturday so the week's time they'll see it the tummy is grumbling right now well, if you guys want to do me, Rax and Fran can skip this but if you guys would like to talk about your channels why people should subscribe, they'll find a link in the description tell them what you do I'm gonna destroy the Winter Soldier in like an hour in 30 minutes or however long it is gonna be I don't know how long it's gonna be good luck that's why there you go you gotta talk in like movie bob speed if you're gonna do that well I'm assuming you do breakdowns of media on your channel just to give them a sense of what the fuck's going on here I don't know this is your time to sell yourself oh yeah yeah, I do stuff yeah, that's cool nailed it alright south, pull what you up to yeah, I'm gonna go eat now see ya wow so there's a lot of stuff that's been happening lately a lot of calls I've been in with Evan we've been watching through a show together um and I've been sitting on this for a while I think I'm ready to go ahead and announce it Mahler this is the hot take that I've been teasing on Twitter for months now and people are getting really annoyed by what it is it's like why do you keep on teasing your hot take instead of just dropping it um and the reason is because of everything I went through with the Spire N2 saga, right how EFAP chat reacted to that it was really funny um but I guess I'll go ahead and drop it now um so a long time ago and maybe some of you guys have figured this out already because I've been dropping hints here and there especially in this little debate once upon a time I was recommended by many many people especially in this community to check out this little show called Batman the Animated Series I watched a couple of episodes oh no they weren't very good and then I watched about a dozen episodes and they weren't very good and those episodes included POV which people are like oh yeah it's like a Rashomon it's half ass Rashomon Evan and I rewatched it just to be sure it's bad Evan and I watched through most of the show together Evan had seen the show when he was a kid he grew up on it and I didn't and I um I was going in mostly blind I'd seen some episodes a while ago but I didn't grow up on it like Evan did and I made Evan rewatch it with me and most episodes are not scraping above a 4 out of 10 as it stands episodes and that's including the Sub-Zero movie so it's 19 episodes from the show and the Sub-Zero movie that's a 6 out of 10 or above and guess what? Hard of Ice it ain't one of them and um yeah I am working on a video about that show I'm going to rip it to shreds I am not sorry at all you guys really should not have recommended me to watch the show and the stuff that I've been saying on Twitter about hey should I check out Batman the Animated Series here's the plot twist I had already seen the entire show um there's recordings of me and Evan reacting to it and I even recorded some of you reacting to some clips smaller I don't know what you mean I've never heard of any of this I haven't seen hundreds of clips of funny things you've shown me from that show what are you talking about what you didn't say that far so maybe people will be wondering what are some problems with Batman the Animated Series like um just little patterns to look out for I don't know how much time you guys have for me to talk about those because I feel like I'm going on for quite a while um couple things Batman is really fucking incompetent in the show gets taken out by goons super easily gets snuck up on super easily um he will frequently get knocked out and then tied up and people will sometimes um not take out the utility belt when that's like the first thing that you do when you tie up Batman um but what they always do is they keep his mask on they keep the cow on they do not want to unmask Batman which is strange because if you've got Batman tied up um you think you'd want to know who Batman is right it's kind of a common point of intrigue amongst the people of Gotham um but man so many people in this show they they get Batman they have him tied up they have him dead to rights and they don't give a fuck um there's so many instances of like aim that would make some troopers from the Mandalorian look competent um from various thugs in the show um um I'm trying to think oh and then you've got just amazingly uh lame payoffs to things like you know episodes like Heart of Ice where Mr. Freeze is taken out because Batman has a thermos of chicken soup in a pocket in his cape that he pulls out and he smashes it over Mr. Freeze's helmet and in the that chicken soup makes the glass on his helmet explode and in the four other instances that Batman goes up against Mr. Freeze they never use this trick again it's it's like it is dire just go into the show and really think about it the way that we look at stuff like the Mandalorian I mean I call it the Batman Mandalorian that's what he is well here's the thing Southport it's a cartoon have you thought about that yeah I've thought about that and I've really thought about how this cartoon that's trying to be mature and serious and have this like very serious tone most of the time it also completely deflate shit like there's a fucking scene there's a okay so there's an episode where Batman gets knocked out by penguins um penguins got this umbrella that shoots out a gas that knocks out Batman it's like a nerve gas of sorts it's like okay so penguin better use this in all of the subsequent appearances guess how many of the subsequent appearances he uses that in negative one none none at all and so Batman has to be saved by a couple of dollar store encyclopedia brown children that are investigating they see a condor they see a rare condor in Gotham there they follow the condor on their bicycles because they figured that's something worth investigating the condor takes them to a bird seed factory that's where the penguin is hiding out and that's how they run into Batman and Batman gets knocked out they're able to save Batman that way through insane contrived bullshit with how they like these kids drive the Batmobile they have Batman like they they they take him in bring him to the basement they have something called I've got Batman on my basement and um it culminates in Batman being revived at just the right time to fight penguin and him and penguin have I swear to God a sword fight where Batman is holding a screwdriver and penguins holding a small knife and I'm just like why is Batman engaging with the penguin like this with a fucking screwdriver given everything in his arsenal it's so bad it not all the skills like just him grabbing a screwdriver is fucking insane and people go oh but Southpaw that's that's one of the bad Batman the animated series episodes like yes but that's the problem 90 episodes of the show are bad there are 4 out of 10 or below assuming so you're probably going to do a full breakdown that they can get excited for right yes um yes so don't fret that is his take everyone will disagree with that from what I understand I never watched it as a kid so I got no connection you just showed me funny clips out of context they're going to hate you for that you're a tainted molar away from it don't worry guys it's fine I don't know that I was going to watch it anyway but it's okay I'll watch his video when he breaks it down and then I'll never see that show it'll be like nice it's okay I'm just kidding it's gonna be fine I'm not going to be happy about this but that's okay because here on EFAP we just look at stuff and we go you know what that didn't make sense and that's it that's what we did today now is and I feel like that's probably a really good place to say goodbye especially on that hot take don't you think let them stew over that thank you all so much for watching hope you enjoyed it I haven't lost I hope I see at least one comment saying you know what the debate format maybe it can work maybe it can work you know nine failures at least there's one that can't work I don't even know if it's that bad thank you all for listening thank you Southbourne SK for coming on rags for mediating and free and myself for doing what we did I guess you've got to make sure I was involved it's all happy families we did it anything else you guys want to say before we sign off I mean well does someone else have something to say you know what you know what I think the points have been made and the points down people can and they won about these two movies that's totally fine you know what because the points are out there you listen to them think about them and then you know we go from there yeah man hot take overdose this this episode I don't know if they can handle it we'll find out on Saturday we will they will also it'll be a Saturday it'll make sense thank you all for watching good night everybody see you next time bye bye feel so desperately that you're right yet to fail nonetheless