It's 7 o'clock, so I'll call the community of the whole meeting to order and I will ask for a roll call President Berg Thank you, Mr. Chairman Boren Berg here Serta Davis graph Hanham Kittleston Clayunas Nanny excused Meyer Montenegro Radke Ryan Shusha Vanderwheel here 15 present one excused. Thank you President Berg Then I'll ask for approval of minutes of last meeting held September 11th 2006 there was a mistake on your agenda. It was September 11th of our last meeting And I will note that all member hassles here Thank you I have a motion do I have a second of approval of the minutes motion a second all in favor signify by saying aye Chair votes aye motion passes We're gonna begin with discussion regarding the various aspects of tasers and their use and I will start off with our Our chief chief Kirk Thank You mr. Chairman Tonight I wish to thank the Committee of the Whole For allowing us to be here to present to you information and mainly or more effective I believe is to answer questions that you may have I Wish to say thank you to this Common Council for last year providing the funding for these tasers I wish to thank the mayor for his initial support of this and a continued support of tasers I know they there have been some questions that have raised or some issues that seem to constantly Surround this issue so What I did was in speaking with the administrative staff we came up with who who do we know who can best answer these? We talked to President Silas Vander wheel to What would it be the best format to determine? What's the best format to answer these questions to pose or provide this information to you? And I believe what we did here tonight was we created probably the best panel that I have ever seen to address the taser issue and it's it's not necessarily this side It's really the members on this panel on this side who have very very graciously Given of themselves to come to Shboygan to explain taser its use its weaknesses its strengths and whatever questions you have So here tonight. I would say tonight. We have lieutenant Tim Ierick who is The lieutenant in charge of our training in the sense of tasers. He voluntarily gave himself took on the training And then has trained our department That training took place on shifts. No overtime was paid for this He he worked day shift afternoons and midnight's and he gave himself and and his off time to To come and train the officers and of course deputy chief Sherman the next person we have is Lieutenant David Nichols. He's from the Appleton Police Department. He is the one who has trained lieutenant Tim Ierick He is probably one of the regional He's deemed one of the experts in the region He is highly sought after to explain and to train others and I thank you David for being here today And then we also have officer and attorney Michael brave Michael's from the western portion of the state of Wisconsin I will allow them both of them as we go on later to give just a brief Biography of them and what what their expertise is to start. We've addressed tasers in its use Several times now for the city. I think we certainly understand that the police department police officers have a unique role in society That we must respond to resistance or it's that of its threat of resistance when we place individuals or people under arrest So with that It's probably tasers is probably one of the most effective tools. I've ever seen in policing. I've been in policing now Just under 30 years It I have seen nothing like it. I attended probably three or four of Lieutenant Nichols presentation at various locations before I became Just attached to the issue that we should have tasers it not only reduces the officers injuries But it reduces the injuries of the public and it's very very important that If you have any questions here tonight, please don't walk away from this presentation or answer it And question session without your your answers To your questions, so please take advantage of this tonight. We wish to partner Not only with the common council, but we want to partner with the community in the sense that let's provide The answers the best we can to come to the the resolution on this matter so that when we Provide you the information There's I've been at different meetings and people have questions and the last public protection of safety meeting There were there was questions posed of me and and some of my staff and I didn't have the answers But tonight we do in these two experts. So with them I would just finish by saying we I believe There's approximately 4,000 police departments that use tasers And it's demonstrated to be one of the safest methods to control people and without causing injury So with that I'll give it back to the president Thank You chief Do we wanted to start with questions or would you I Mean I just give you a brief history of my involvement with electronic control devices In Wisconsin, we're trying to move away from calling them by the corporate name taser is a name of a company The device that they make is an electronic control device I'll trip over my tongue a few times trying to call it an electronic control device because it's been a product of its success I've been associated with electronic control devices for the city of Appleton police department since late 2000 in January of 2001 the city of Appleton police department moved forward with a electronic control device program And we've been deploying them with our patrol officers since January of 2001 now. We have learned a lot from our program We have seen a lot of success tremendous success. We've also seen failures We've learned from our failures. We've Looked at our training and looked at our policies And and it's kind of a a work in progress What my involvement has been early on was to research the device research the technology and then make some determinations on was this going to be an acceptable use of force tool for the city of Appleton police department and I will refer to it that way throughout the evening. It is just another tool. It's another option. It does not replace other tools and other techniques it supplements it Used in the right set of circumstances. It is a tremendous tool for law enforcement But there are issues like with any tool Where there's got to be accountability to the way that the device is used there's got to be In my belief and what we looked at the city of Appleton police department was this There are five things that will make a successful program whether we're dealing with tasers Electronic control devices or whether we're dealing with other use of force tools I think first you have to have good policy You have to very firm good policy within your agency on how you're going to use a device The second thing that you need is good training and sometimes in law enforcement when we When we have tools and devices we spend more time Training our people on how to use the tool instead of how to apply the policy and then correctly use the tool So a big part of it is is good training along with your policy The third key and I think very important regardless of the use of force tool that you're going to use Is you must review every incident in which you use the device Whether it be OC pepper spray whether it be batons beanbag rounds whether you use an elbow strike or a knee strike When you're using force against a person you should review each one of those use of force Incidents to find out do they comply with your policy and do they comply with your training and if not number four accountability accountability If you have if you review one of these incidents And you determine that it's outside of your policy and it's outside of your training you must hold people accountable for that And that may mean retraining modifying your policy. It may mean discipline, but if you're not looking at each incident How do you know whether you're complying with your policy and your training the you know the last piece and I think a very important piece is You must educate and engage the community engage forums like this to educate people on what this device is There's a lot of people out there that think they know what this thing is And really it don't have a lot of Idea of what it is So you must educate your community leaders you must educate your administrators in the media because if you don't There's going to be misinformation So my involvement has been to start our program Grow our program and modify it as needed and we've had tremendous success and we've had some failures And I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to be here Great evening and I too am very happy to be here first the disclaimer in addition to being a Wisconsin attorney Wisconsin police officer trainer Etc. I am also National Litigation Counsel for taser. So like I said what Dave and I are here for tonight and by the way I Personally believe Dave is the best master taser instructor that exists today So he's trying to turn bright red on me here, but I truly believe that but anyway What we really want to do is we could talk about this subject for a month and I know you don't want to do that So what I'd like to do is just give you a little bit to get you away from the electrocophobia The irrational fear of electricity Just in about two minutes and then just answering questions that you've got no matter what they may be if you've got a question In any way shape or form revolves around taser Use of force use of force in Wisconsin Federal constitutional parameters and use force whatever it may be we'd like to address those so first you don't mind I'll stand up to do this a couple of things about electrocophobia a lot of people are scared of tasers because they've heard 50,000 volts You've heard that right? Do you realize that over a one-second baseline the number of volts that actually goes into a person from an x26 taser is Only 0.76 volts However, the media would not get a good headline if they said at 0.76 volts used to take a person to the ground So just a couple of things to put this in perspective. First of all This is what powers an x26 taser These are photo batteries. It does there are two of them There are three volts a piece and you can buy these at best buy However, these are the ones I'll pass them around just so you can look at them But that's what powers them now when you start looking at this and putting in a perspective I want to give you some numbers here By if my cord will reach First a taser puts out Generates 19 pulses per second. They're very short pulses, which I'll describe in a minute, but it's 19 pulses per second That's how many it puts out then If you hold the trigger back it will this if rephrase if you pull the trigger let it go will discharge for five seconds So here's your math question for the night the first one If you multiply those two things out 19 pulses per second times five seconds, how many pulses are there in five seconds? 195 very good That is that right? No, it's not right. No hundred ninety five Okay, I'm an attorney not an accountant. Sorry now, so there's 95 95 pulses in five seconds now One set of batteries in a taser one set will discharge this number this amount of times one hundred and ninety five times Thus, what's the number there Dave 18 525? Thus our eighteen thousand five hundred twenty five pulses of electricity coming out of those two little three volt batteries That's it. Therefore the question to you is how many how much current could be in any one pulse? Okay, now as far as duration you'll see the stack of paper here. We use this for a reason There's 10,000 sheets of paper here a taser pulse is 100 microseconds thus one of night he's 19 pulses lasts if this one if he's this 10,000 sheets represents one second of time as an example out of that electric socket wherever they are is The power on continuously for that full one second. Yes, it is out of a taser if this represents one second of time One piece of paper equals one pulse in time That's it So that one pulse equals one piece of paper out of 10,000 for one second So therefore for a full one second, how many pieces of paper would represent how much a taser is discharging? 19 pulses per second if one piece of paper equals one pulse then how many pieces of paper would be for one full second? 19 you got it. It's that simple So the short version is if I were to take 18 more pieces of paper off of this if that represented one second all The rest of that time that taser is not discharging any electricity at all now one more thing This is going to get interesting for the night's over Everybody's heard this 50,000 volts Put this in a perspective. Here's why the taser does have 50,000 volts peak arcing voltage. It's real simple Because we want the taser to be able to jump through up to two inches of clothing That's why if that if the taser would go directly into the body every single time and actually penetrate into the body You would not need this. This is arcing voltage. This is not what enters the body 50,000 volts something else to remember go back to your high school electricity classes If I were to shuffle my feet across this floor and touch something metal how many volts of electricity is in a static electricity charge? 30,000 to 50,000 a static electricity charge left 30 to 50,000 volts Secondly does anybody know what a van to graph generator is remember going to museum when you were a kid You put your hand on the van to graph generator and your hair stands up. How many volts is that up to? 25 million so when you hear this 50,000 volt thing that really doesn't mean much all that 50,000 volts is is it takes approximately 1,000 volts of pressure To jump one millimeter and therefore 50,000 volts equals about two inches That's all it is the amount of electricity the amount of voltage actually enters the body is only 1200 That's what actually enters the body, but remember static electricity is 30,000 volts and then when you average over to one second baseline Remember it's a very short amount of time the taser is actually on that means the amount of voltage going into the body Over one second is only zero point seven six volts So what's important to think about here is it's incredible these these are not believe it or not These are not nuclear power cells if they were doing it as a lot of media thinks we can generate which we can't We could power your house with these things. That's not what it is. These are camera batteries. That's all they put out They're over 18,000 pulses out of these two little batteries. They're very low current They're very low voltage that actually enters and goes through the body and it has very little effect on the body Okay, so that kind of hopefully puts a little perspective for you as to how it works now How does it work on the body? The old taser device the old stun devices from ten years ago What they would do is Anybody here in their hands have heat sensors. They've got touch. They've got feel they have pressure all those little nerves inside your hands How do those new nerves work with your brain? The nerves work by changing their electrical polarity Sending a signal to your brain which says either temperature pressure cold whatever it is whatever that nerve is sensing So what is like when electricity hits that what does the electricity do it causes them? What causes them all to fire at the exact same time? That's why the sensation taser is perceived as pain now coming the other way. How do your muscles work? If you tell your brain, I want my arm to move now. How does that work? It sends a signal from your brain Down to the motor neuron that motor neuron through electricity through chemicals Then tells your muscle to contract the old stun devices from 10 15 years ago All they did was cause the pain sensation to go from the nerves to the brain. That's why they would not stop everyone who was who encountered it However, the taser is finally tuned. It's finally tuned to disrupt Your mental processes from going down through your motor neuron to your muscles That's how it works example if this gentleman and I were having a phone conversation And he came on it was screaming as loud as he could over the telephone. How well would we be able to communicate? We wouldn't but as soon as he is done yelling will we be able to communicate again and answers? Yes, that's what the taser does it causes the nerve cells to basically fire and basically come up as discomfort It also disrupts your ability to volitionally control your muscles by causing disturbance on the motor neurons That's how it works. So it's really a very simple process takes a very little Electricity to make that happen and it's very finely tuned to cause that to occur simple example Why is it taser at 19 pulses per second give you one example? Originally when the x-26 came out in 2003 that's the one your officers are carrying That's what Dave has on they were set it with a five-second cycle You pull the trigger goes for five seconds the first two seconds were at 19 pulses per second The next three seconds dropped to 15 why number one so the person would not have so many contractions And number two to save on the batteries because even they can get expensive However in Colorado Springs a couple of years ago when they still had 19 pulses for the first two seconds then dropped to 15 for the next three They had a suicidal male with a gun. They hit him with the taser He's got the gun in his hand for the first two seconds. It locked him up When it dropped from 19 cycles per second 19 pulses to 15 He was able to muscle that gun up to his chest shoot and kill himself That's why the tasers today all the x-26s are set at 19 pulses per second to prevent that kind of thing from happening So the 19 pulses are designed to lock the person up But no more than necessary and to prevent them from harming themselves or others So again what I'm trying to point out here is number one don't have electrical phobia and unreasonable fear of electricity This device puts out very little actual current electricity number two understand those pulses per second are very short 100 microseconds each that's it There's only 19 of them the vast majority of the time the taser is not even on and number three Everything that taser put into this weapon into this device There's a reason for and if you have any questions Dave or I or whoever else is up here be more than happy to answer them Thank you before we get the questions. I want to have Deputy Chief Sherman Speak a little bit about it One of the things that lieutenant Nichols had mentioned was these things were addressed in policy and training and Our shawagan police department policy does address the tasers. There's nine points that it gives There also is a review process for any time that the the taser is deployed One other thing to bear in mind is the shawagan police department is an accredited agency that fits state Certifications and this would apply to the to the taser to the taser also all of our officers in the shawagan police department Have gone through a state-approved Recruit school all of our officers are certified The policy that we that we use the use of force policy or the force continuum policy is identical to that of the state the tasers come under the same use of force as the OC and Our officers do follow the the use of force policy The OC has been utilized for a number of years sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't at times the officers That when they use the OC if the person is a very motivated individual it won't have effect I can tell from my own personal experiences that the taser does work. You cannot do anything But I reckon myself have been tased and you are not able to fight or resist. So I support the taser for the safety of our officers All right Alderman Montemure Thank You Chairman Vanderwill Mr. Brave, I have this right. You're the National Litigation Council for the taser company Yes, I am I'm also a master taser instructor and legal advisor at the taser training board and I've been teaching electronic control devices since the early 90s Now we got the impression that it can't do any electrical harm But it certainly gives extreme pain. I Think nobody can argue with that but it does inflict extreme pain And I think I got the information that in order for it to immobilize It has to have the pain not that the pain immobilizes it but it has to in order for it to work It it's dual. It's pain and immobilization Not purposefully pain, but the pain must be there in order to immobilize since the pain the short answers Yes, since the pain is a lower threshold than activating the motor neurons. That is why you have to go there first It's interesting though is the chief and I were discussing before we came here tonight Both Dave and I know a couple of gentlemen one Hans Marrero and another one for Peter Boatman from the United Kingdom They've both been hit between 300 and 500 times and they will tell you that once you get beyond Whenever your cost not be able to control your body There's a little bit of panic involved and once you get beyond that they describe it as a sensation other than pain But the vast majority of people that are hit only once etc. It is considered extreme pain and number two They don't want it again. I Remember we did see one little video Last year before and it was a little blurb in there. It was a chief from someplace in Florida and I do remember clearly him bragging that The the criminals on the street are behaving because they yell to each other behave they've got the chair Meaning, you know, that's what the criminals meant now It works or it doesn't work, but evidently it does work for you It does seem barbaric to to expose people to such extreme pain and most most of them don't Give you trouble because it hurts so much Now how about a special needs person especially the one here? It had to be tased repeatedly So the pain certainly didn't stop him and it took many times before He was immobilized Am I correct? I'll let David just second sorry a couple of things first Some of the best statistics we are getting now is once an agency has had taser devices on the road for a while We're finding that out of five times. It's pulled and the lasers put on someone the laser light Four times out of that five. They don't have to pull the trigger because people are now complying Secondly with the incidents you're talking about Just so you know, I'm also a police officer. I'm also certified to teach me to do this real quick Just because there's no point to it other than just let you know I am certified to teach handgun shotgun rifles a machine gun chemical irritant chemical inflammatory chemical aerosol chemical munitions Pepper spray from Fyder and schools spontaneous knife defense little basket neck restraint unilateral neck restraint weapon is Discerned retention defensive tactics distraction device electronic control devices. So in other words, I've certified to teach almost any use of force It's out there Now I also have reviewed the report of the one that you're referring to the gentleman was 210 pounds He was causing a disturbance. He could not be controlled Let's for a minute go through the tools that law enforcement officers have at their disposal to try to control him One of them of course is their firearm which of course we never we never want to do except as a last resort That's just we just don't The other devices other than the electronic control device either a cause intense pain or be break things Such as a baton either a I hit you to hurt you cause you pain or I hit you intentionally to break of A knee a thigh etc. And still if the person is not feeling pain that still may not control them Pepper spray like I said, I've read the report and the officers state that When the gentleman as I understand his name was Brian was going one direction There were numerous other residents of the home right there when he went back the other way There were numerous residents there if they had used pepper spray, which is all the resin capsicum in that environment They would have contaminated everyone and the second thing is you want to talk about pain I've been hit with pepper spray five times because I'm instructed from five schools It teaches you two things. I wanted to know was there a difference between the various sprays number one There isn't number two it proves. I'm stupid and number three I will never get hit with pepper spray again because you want to feel pain Hit you'd have pepper spray, but so therefore pepper spray two things first It would not have worked in that environment because it was enclosed and because someone else would have been contaminated Probably a lot of people Secondly, it is not the taser that discomfort the pain stops the minute the power is off Pepper spray will go on for 30 to 45 minutes or longer Also on someone who is having mental health issues that person in at least 20 percent of time the pepper spray will have no Effect on them whatsoever. I've also done over a hundred and forty expert witness cases across the country and Involving use of force and law enforcement, and I have numerous cases especially one including one up in Michigan Where they use pepper spray on them? It had no effect at all and therefore would not have been a viable tool So the next issue is okay, then we have physical well this gentleman was out of control He was hitting people he weighed 210 pounds That is exactly the type of event that the electronic control device was designed to be used because it is the key is to electronic control device is not to control them It's not to restrain them is to get them captured long enough to get them in the handcuffs, etc And secondly, there's a document I brought with me There was a study completed about three months ago on Use of a electronic control device taser on mental health people and the document shows that in the short amount of time Since the taser has been out which is since 1999 there have been documented over 1,100 People who the taser was used on in mental health cases where had they not used the taser They would have resorted to deadly force and basically shot the person or wounded them so it has saved at least that many lives So on the Brian case while it is unfortunate that he had no experience to pain that was actually the least Harmful especially long-term device or tactic they could have used for everyone concerned And it's the only one that was even practical in the circumstances Dave So is there a special training for special needs people? I'll comment on that that is a screen that I have up. I was involved in Assisting taser in writing the newest version of their training program And there are some issues that we've addressed in there some things that That we've been training at our agency for a while and the slide that I actually have up in front of me And I want to comment a little bit also on what you had asked mr. Brave earlier There's a slide here within our training of the city of Appleton where I call I call it Elevated justification based on societal perceptions. That's a lot of words, which really means this We have to Understand and accept in law enforcement that society provides people in certain groups greater protection from police tactics And whether we like that or not that that is a fact a couple of the examples that I give our officers in In people within these groups or similar groups our children the elderly Mentally challenged and people who are restrained It's not to say that you cannot use a device on someone who fits into one of those categories But the threat to the officer and the threat to the others should be Correspondingly high in most cases should be elevated there is probably no one in Certainly in the state of Wisconsin that believes more in this device if used properly is a tremendous law enforcement tool But if someone from the Appleton police department or the Sheboygan police department uses an ecd on my 14-year-old child You better have a good explanation for me Okay, and that's the mindset That the officers need to have and that comes through proper policy and proper training now I was involved in using this device on a 13-year-old Mung child okay now in This particular situation she had a sword Okay, and had we not used the device on her we may have had to use deadly force It doesn't replace deadly force, but if we can do it safely With lethal cover we will try that I was also involved in it being used on a 21-year-old girl with Down syndrome And in that particular case she had a knife had assaulted her case worker Who's there to visitor and charged at our officers with that knife now? Can you use it on a mentally? challenged person Absolutely, but that threat that the officer should be facing must be correspondingly high If you use it on my 14-year-old child it better not be because they didn't cooperate with you to go to the office Okay, it better be that there was more to it the second piece is When you asked before about pain Mr.. Brave is is He is a fantastic Person explaining the technical aspects of all this. I've been hit I'm gonna tell you more from a just my common perspective of what it feels like I've been hit six times with the device that I Can tell you that for me it is not painful It is the most overwhelming sensation and I just want it to stop, but it's not like I hit my thumb with a hammer It's not pain like that and as soon as it is off. It's gone and you can and you can recover I've been sprayed by pepper spray all other tools and techniques in law enforcement work in one way shape or form off of pain That that that's how they're designed the ecd Takes it a step further and as he was describing before for me. This is the way it works Okay, have any of you ever had the reason that people yell out and scream? Have you ever had in the middle of the night or while you're driving a car?   It's not pain I've exposed at least several hundred probably a thousand people to the device About 50 to 75 percent of people will say you're lying that hurt Okay, but the way it works is this Your nervous system the whole system is designed to keep you alive and keep you safe And it has three components. You have sensory nerves as mr.  Brave and pinch him in the back of the arm sensory nerves are going to send signals to his brain to tell him that hurts It's a painful stimulus His brain central nervous system makes a decision about it and says I I don't like that make it stop It sends signals out to the third component his motor nerves that control his muscle movement to tell him How to make it stop to move his arm? The ecd works not only on pain and not to someone who has a mind-body disconnect someone who's very agitated Very intoxicated and emotionally disturbed person Many of them are impervious to pain They don't stop because it hurts we train our police officers to get sprayed with pepper spray I've been sprayed multiple times of pepper spray You'll never do that to me again on purpose because to me it lasts 45 minutes to an hour But we teach our police officers after they get sprayed to fight because you can fight through pain and soak in the bad guys We've all been you know in a fight with our brother or sister or a neighbor and suffered an injury during the fight the pain doesn't well most people have the The pain doesn't stop you daring the fight It affects you after the fight and that's the big difference with this device because it causes the muscle contraction To not Caused you to want to stop fighting because it hurts you stop because you get the muscle cramp Okay, so I don't know the case of the mentally challenged individual Probably the multiple cycles where there were not officers available immediately to get him restrained And he wasn't going to stop with pain because of Being an emotionally disturbed person, but yes, it can be used on someone in those groups But your policy and your debrief of that incident Incident should show that that threat level was correspondingly high much like someone in restraints handcuffs Can you use it on somebody that's in handcuffs my answer to that is it depends tell me about it You can only use force in my opinion to establish and maintain control not to punish people Establish and maintain control and that should be the purpose of your use of force if you have a person that's in handcuffs and They you know for instance spit at you or call you a bunch of names You can't justify using an ecd on that person for that reason If you're trying to get them out of the squad car and they kick you and you try and come from the other side of The squad car and they try and headbutt you and they're biting could you use it then to establish control? I think you could but you can't use it to punish and that is a that is a critical issue Thank you. I'm gonna chief crook wants to make a comment If if we get back to the RCS situation We must remember that a special needs adult Was an adult and it was Six foot two hundred ten pounds You have to also remember that there were ten People who were trained to work with and to care for Those special needs adults when something went wrong when that special needs adult was out of control They called the police department When that officer arrived it was one officer who arrived now you already had ten People who were trained as supervisors or help workers or what have you they're all specially trained to deal with that special Group of people and bless their soul because I don't believe I could do that job. I really don't believe I could However, when they could not control the situation they called upon the police department one officer arrived at that time There was another officer in route, but one officer arrived that officer was being charged by this person We have to remember and we put the policy. I believe everyone got the policy on the use of force The absolutely right we need to establish and or maintain control of that person to avoid any injury of the officer involved of the person Who is also the person who's having the attention drawn to and to those bystanders or those co-employees who are there? special needs people at times have a disconnect between cause and effect the pain and what's causing the pain and It's an unfortunate set of circumstances that occurred at that location However, when you have one officer there until his backup gets there in order to maintain control They will be given another Tazing so to speak until that person understands they must comply with the lawful orders of the police officer I wanted to just make one further comment on accountability Lieutenant Nichols touched on it We hold our officers Accountable to a very high standard. We are an accredited agency. I take great pride in the effort of our officers our employees I take great pride in being an agency that has tasers and once again I thank this common council for providing those tasers to us It is one tool of many that we use for our saw our officer safety and the safety of The public we deal with we'll get into some injuries later some statistics on injuries as far as last year We had 18 officer injured during the same time of the taser use From April until now. We had nine inches off nine officers that were injured It's reduced our officers injuries and it also I believe would correspondingly reflect that the Public's injuries were also Reduced Thank You chief all the much more did you have anything to add? I'm sure I will later. Okay. Thank you Could you also provide her with the sheet on the mental health study, please? She might like to look at that? And all the men born Thank You mr. Chairman in in the Desk that have occurred Supposedly having to do with tasers around the country Are there any underlying medical conditions? Of course the officers on the scene wouldn't be able to identify these But are there any underlying medical conditions that have been shown up in autopsies that perhaps made the heart go into Ventricular fibrillation where just it's not beating properly Are there any street drugs that perhaps raised blood pressure or make the person more agitated that would perhaps? Cause a fatal event if you could just comment on that, please The short answer is yes in other words if you first let's put this in a perspective Excited delirium sudden custody deaths are not new as a matter of fact the earliest Medical journal article I know of that exists is from the Journal of Insanity by dr. Luther Bell was published in 1849 which by the way was a little bit before tasers came into being Additionally, they it's been widely reported on since the early 1980s during the cocaine epidemic especially down in Miami But if you check with pub med on doing research on this issue, there's over 68 published articles on this condition now When you look at this they almost all have the same phenomenon. It's called in custody death excited delirium sudden death, etc As far as the taser application What without going through a four-hour explanation of this the things that can happen to these people either because of drugs or because of past Mental illness or because of neuro leptic drugs. It's often called neuro leptic malignant syndrome syndrome excited delirium Agitated delirium building that hyperthermia metal block acidosis Elevated potassium Rhabdomyolysis, etc when you take all of these things into consideration what it basically means is the person is Acting bizarre in a number of ways, which normally means there they have elevated body temperature Which means they will be stripping off their clothing or they'll be nude and sheboygan in January They will be very paranoid. They will usually be breaking glass. They may be attacking people for no reason There's a whole bunch of symptoms go along with this and what is basically happening is they are exhausting themselves to death When you look at the autopsies on these people after they do die You will you will normally find or oftentimes find in a large heart or you may find a heart defect And you will also usually find either a high level of stimulants or what really causes them is chronic stimulant abuse now The as far as the electronic control device that pertains these people There are really only three that I know of where the taser was the listed as a direct cause of death One of them was a Hasse case out of Chicago and in that one Our experts including the head of cardiology for John Hopkins Hospital say it's impossible could not have happened because He actually was tasered and then it wasn't for a couple of minutes later that he succumbed to his problem He also did have a lethal dose of methamphetamine on board a second one was a detention person in jail detention down in the Carolinas He sharpened pencils and attacked one detention officer shoved the pencil into their skull and a second one put into their eyeball So they were now very short on staff They finally hit him with a taser and the person had holding the taser had it locked on Finger pulled for a total 167 continuous seconds. They blamed that one on the taser as well That one is not going to litigation. Yes. I don't know where it is So when you look at the current matter of fact another article just came out on this yesterday Michael Curtis here in Wisconsin and other doctors are telling you when these people are exhausting themselves to death It's like if you if you were not if you were I were to run a marathon Our bodies would shut down before we could exhaust ourselves to death these people that are on the slope Their dopamine receptors in their brain are damaged to the point They will no longer stop their body from letting them exhaust themselves to death So therefore they're on this slippery slope and what a lot of people are saying now is look You've got to get them captured and unconscious as quickly as possible But that I mean medically sedate to in order to shut their body down to help save their lives That's the best shot you've got now as far as what you're going to find In almost every one of these like I said, you'll find when you do the neurochemistry Analysis the brain you'll find the damage that the dopamine receptors But a lot of times you will not even find current drugs in the system. Here's an example for you This is a document a case in the medical literature a high school basketball star player all of a sudden dropped dead on the basketball floor They did an autopsy they did a complete toxicology screen. They found nothing. They couldn't find anything So they buried him no cause of death about six months later one of his teammates went to the counselor and said, you know He'd been doing cocaine every day for months They wouldn't exhume the body. They did a hair analysis His hair was about four or five inches long your hairs like rings on a tree if you've done drugs during the length of The hair you can see it sure enough.  You'll see it, etc. If it's collected properly example on cocaine I've got one case right now where he died from cocaine, but they did not adequately preserve his blood They did the autopsy four days later The problem is the body will continue to metabolize cocaine after death. So they lost that evidence, but anyway, so It's the chronic abuse that causes them to go into the spell And that's why they could have stopped using meth or coke six months a year earlier and they can still have this excited Delirium episode and that's becoming more and well more and more well proven now. There's books out on it There's over 300 articles that I've collected on it from medical journals. It's a well proven fact And if anybody is truly interested the Institute for the Prevention of Incustody Deaths is doing a two-day symposium in Las Vegas in November 16th and 17th and to my knowledge every one of the top Researchers not just in the u.s. But also in Canada are going to be there speaking and they're going to talk about excited delirium Sudden death suicide by police officer They're going to talk about a whole range of things including metabolic acidosis methamphetamine, etc. So I hope that answers your question Thank you. Oh, I'm in Hanna Thank You Chairman First off, I like very much the five keys to success you later. I think that's that's very helpful Have you had the opportunity to review our special needs policy? within our police department for the use of electronic control devices I Have not second question What do you recommend for ongoing? Education of our officers in the use of the electronic control device and finally when an officer uses a taser or electronic control device What old device most often does it replace might meaning firearm baton or pepper spray? Okay, I have I have not had the opportunity to Review even your policy which which was kind of interesting for me And I think a good thing because I'm coming in here with no preconceived ideas about what is happening here Even what your policy says I can tell you what my recommendation would be is this There are a tremendous amount of good policies in the state of Wisconsin that I have cataloged many agencies have used Our policy as a model and then have modified it. They will then send that policy back to me I look at it I review it make some suggestions send it back and then I get to keep copy of it So our policy keeps keeps getting better as we go a lot of things have changed in terms of what? Taser the company and what their training lesson plan is incorporating right now? I would strongly encourage you that as you continue to move forward if that's what you choose to do That you get your training or maintain your training as current as possible a lot of things have changed in the last two years I was involved in writing the latest version as I said before of the training manual And there are a lot of things that we've changed one of them speaks a little bit To to your Point earlier one of the the options are modes that you can use this device And it's called the stun mode where the only thing that the person gets is the pain-compliance portion of it And it was a technique that was in my opinion overemphasized in taser training in years past where they would take the cartridge off and touch it to the person The only thing that you get is the pain you don't get the muscle contraction So an officer has a person that's resisting and I think I'm going to sidetrack one one other thing Your policy should also say not just active resistance or threat of active resistance It should your policy or your training should say and there should be some Describable threat to you or someone else there's got to be something more than they just don't want to do what you want Them to do there should be some Describable threat to you or someone else so you have this person that is fighting with you It's some type of a domestic arrest and the person is actively fighting with you And you can articulate that threat if you take that cartridge off of the device And you touch the weapon to them without shooting the probes the only thing you get is the pain-compliance portion So the officer touches it on him and if you touch I teach our officers this with that cartridge removed Think of that device as a blowtorch. Okay. Now if you stick a blowtorch in the middle of somebody's back What are they going to do? They're gonna fight to get away from it. So what does the officer perceive that as? More resistance. So what does the officer do? Applies it again and applies it again. So To answer your question. What are one of the things that have been changed? What I see around the country when I do training is agencies that have had the devices for approximately two years Will have about 50% of their deployments will be drive stunts and that was a problem with the training So we've changed a lot of that We've talked about a normal cycle is one five-second cycle and then reevaluate the threat or the need for another cycle So you don't have these multiple or continuous cycles The other key is a very important training item is to teach your officers Not to be afraid of the electricity and that they can move in and control the person while the device is on Thus reducing the need for multiple cycles So the the key in this is maintaining your your agency Keeping them up to speed on the most current training. There's a few ways that that can be done Taser recommends the company recommends that the instructors be updated every two years And I can tell you a lot of things have changed in the last two years and the last point sir I I got rambling so I forgot last point. Oh, what does it replace? Yes? What is it replaced most often? In my opinion, it shouldn't replace anything. It should supplement However, there comes a point where we can't carry everything on our bat belt. Okay, there's only so much that you can fit on there What the state of Wisconsin is doing they are placing the ecd within our use of force model And they are placing it at the same level of resistance the the levels of resistance that would justify us to use OC spray pepper spray is the same level that would justify us to use the ecd That's where the current state model is they are also Mandating training on excited delirium to speak to that so what many agencies are doing many agencies are going back to do What us old guys did before the expandable baton is we carry a baton ring on the belt If I need more room and I carry a solid baton in my car So if I'm getting out on the type of call I think that I may need a baton as opposed to you know other tools I may then put that baton in help me understand the Rank the devices that are that are available to police officers from Most extreme to police extreme so we all understand sure There is a myriad of options out there and you don't need to have every one of them What the basic model taught in the state of Wisconsin is you have basically a five-tier system? presence dialogue Empty hand control which are your techniques of pain compliance techniques Putting pressure on pressure points that causes pain. You can use joint manipulation. You can use Punches and kicks and knees and elbow strikes things like that You can use pepper spray and then there's an intermediate weapon which in the state of Wisconsin That is the impact weapon the police baton And then deadly force Certainly, there are many other options that other agencies will incorporate mine included Canine units more where does that fit? It's not in the state model But you can add additional things and that's called advanced standing training your agency has to research it and have policy on it And basically that's what it is. So you have multiple multiple options available to you You should have you should have a variety you should outfit your officers with as many acceptable force options That have a good balance between effectiveness and propensity to cause injury and when you look at effectiveness and propensity to cause injury the ECD is probably one of the best choices that you can that you can have it is Mike Just two more aspects as far as to address the last one first If you want it one of the things I have I don't have it with me But I can email to you enough is a risk reduction PowerPoint What this is a collection of police agencies from across the country and the? Statistical analyses that they've done based upon what they saw in their experience with electronic control devices So from my perspective based upon your question by use of the ECD what they've seen is a decrease in suspect injury Officer injury, etc. But they've also seen example in Miami Miami prior to use of the control a taser had 19 deaths by firearms for a 16th month period They had zero deaths by firearms just a huge difference But they see basically the agencies that adopted see decreases in death by firearm death or canine Batons pepper spray and physical force as you what you basically see is all of those beginning to decrease That's what they've seen as far as training. I do want to hype taser training a little bit because Dave's been through a lot. There's a number of people in here that have To me taser has the absolute best training in the world. There are hierarchies as follows There's a there's a lead instructor who's the former head of defensive tactics training for the US Marine Corps hand-to-hand combat There's a vice president of training who has a staff then there are the training board which Dave has been One of the people who's given huge amount of impact to this then their senior master instructors master instructors Advanced instructors instructors and then users and right now there's over 22,000 instructors So taser in just the last six years has put out Over 16 different training versions which keeps getting better and better and better as far as training as Dave said instructors Have to go back through the two days of instructor training every two years and taser recommends that the user of training is every year That's for six hours per year. Thank you very much Deputy Chief Sherman had something to add Just in response to all the person Hannah's question and what the lieutenant done Nichols Mentioned is our policy does address some of the same things as far as it being articulated Number three it states an officer shall not brandish display or threaten the use of a taser unless he she can reasonably conclude its use may become justified as and anticipated after its use or display the Supervisor will fill out a use of force form one of the things on that form says subjects action Now we just had one just the other day where an officer was attacked by three people and two people were were tased states here Officer assaulted during our arrest by another party and then another individual jumped in so this does have our policy does address Articulable action on the part of the subject to justify the action I'd also like to respond to Alderman Hannah's question Just to give you an in-house explanation of what we provide we provide OC spray a Paton and a collapsible baton when they use the taser if you're trained. It's a mandatory wear taser Except unless and you're in administrative position where you have some reason where you may not Especially when we don't have one for each officer. We'd rather have those tasers on the street now as we look at You have to carry OC Or baton with a taser, so I think we have about a 50-50 mix some carry OC some carry a baton with their taser Thank You chief Alderman Susha Thank You mr. Chairman. I do want to thank you for putting this panel together I think it might have benefited us more if we would have had this type of panel Maybe about a year ago before we bought the tasers because I think we could have learned a lot And I just want to clarify now mr. Mr. Bray.  I'm also a sworn police officer state of Wisconsin have been since 1976 I'm also certified by the Wisconsin State Post Board to teach 22 different subjects here in the state of Wisconsin I also have been doing law enforcement risk management liability management litigation after witness work for the last two decades I'm also the former chief of intelligence and investigative operations for the office enforcement operations US Department of Justice in Washington as well as former deputy director of the federal witness protection program for international ops. I Have a lot of weird hobbies. Okay, so I'll take that note of the physician part You're not a physician, correct physician is in medical. No, how I am not a physician as in a medical doctor I am the person though for the last three years who has been Working with and providing expert reports in cases where we have where taser has been sued on these issues And I'm the person who retains the expert reviews the reports, etc And also works with an example in the Holcomb case in Ohio We just had 15 expert reports that we filed with that case Including the head of cardiology from Johns Hopkins the number one electrophysiologist in the United States Etc. But no, I am not a medical doctor right and I um I think that what would have been beneficial perhaps a year ago is now that we've got representation from the police and good Representation from taser with two people on this panel representing someone who helped write the training manual And then also the lawyer that helps defend tasers It would be nice if we could have had another panel following with a like what you said an electrophysiologist A cardiologist an obstetrician a psychiatrist maybe a nephrologist so they could come in and start talking about You know, what does a diabetic patient look like when they're heading into diabetic shock? And how does that differ from a criminal? And and probably work through some of those issues because that is the part that concerns me the most is the lack Of good medical studies in pregnant women medical studies with patients with cardiac conditions And and I think that is a component and it's also very difficult for an officer to identify I mean unless you're maybe five months or longer in your pregnancy You know the officer's not going to know that or heart conditions You're not going to necessarily know that and you know it goes down back to what elder person montemare was saying with The mentally handicapped person There you may have known it But what what are the interactions with some of the medication that they're on? And I would think that the psychiatry world would sure have some information that The rest of us could benefit from Because they have used electric shock and it sure would be interested I've got mostly medical questions that you're not qualified to answer But just this meeting could go on until midnight and I think my questions focus more so locally And I'm going to try to kind of turn the conversation even though I appreciate the background you've given us I'd like to turn the conversation into some things That are more relevant. I think to what's going on here. My first question I have two of them one is I've never received a copy of shabuigan's taser policy even though we've asked for it in public protection and safety last December I know that the new public protection safety committee did go over it But it would have been nice to have that on our desk tonight, but the most Pressing question in my mind is why have not why haven't we implemented the taser cameras yet? I can discuss that It hasn't been till recently that the cameras have been out on the market. They've been ordered That they're coming in Part of the problem was taser I think had some problems with getting them out But the camera, I'm not sure where you want to go with the camera, but the the camera is not the end all to the Use of the force because part of the problem with the camera is is that the camera is not activated until the officer places the taser From a safe mode to an active mode And part of the problem is is you don't put you don't withdraw a taser Which is a a weapon until you're about ready to use it So that that is a problem because Leading up to these situations. Sometimes these situations are so fluid That you're not going to bring a weapon out and run the camera So that you can catch the whole action prior to the deployment of this So that you can get a whole feel as to what that female or male officer are entailing before they deploy it That is a problem. So are you telling me that the city of shabuigan has ordered taser cameras? Yes, we have I did today Today yes And could you explain why they weren't ordered two months ago when they became available on the market? I don't know exactly when they became available on the market when we initially ordered the tasers They were put in With the taser there was actually a two bid process on it. It was a a bid for the tasers that we needed the x26's And then also the camera system And the camera system at that time We were told that it was not in not on the market yet and Chief crook has something to add to that I think probably I should answer this question in a sense that uh When we received the funding for the tasers, we purchased the tasers. We also received fund funding for cameras When those cameras were known to us to be available We then placed that order that order has been sitting for the cameras There's been a discussion in with kim And our department as to when should we place the the camera purchase as soon as we find out that those cameras are available You place the order the the order We talked about this last week kim was not working last week. I believe that's the case when we found out those cameras were available That's when we placed the order Thank you chief and that is something that we had brought up in public protection safety also and uh, we were kind of on top of that Just to address a couple things First If you like I will put I can put you in touch with at no cost to you A number of medical doctors and you can talk to them at your To get your answers to any questions you may have Secondly, just so you know taser since december of 2005 has been running about one a month What we call a taser chiefs risk managers and attorneys program We've done them. We just did one in chicago It seems like a year ago was last week But anyway, we had about 150 people in attendance at those programs. It's a two-day program We had dr. Jeff ho who's a medical emergency room doctor who's also done the latest leading research on electronic control devices and the effects on the human human being over the last Two years. We also had dr. Mark Krull who dr. Mark Krull is a phd But he holds over 200 patents on cardiac electrical devices He is the man in the world for that subject. We also had scott greenwood. Who's an acl to aclu attorney out of Ohio We also had a representative from the institute for the benchman custody desk So we do put on these programs the next one is scheduled for Oakland california november, but we do do that but as far as any medical questions you might have whether it be on excited delirium Effects of electricity on the body effects of electricity on the heart I will be more than happy if you wish i'll give you a selection to choose from And you tell me which ones you want to contact or even don't and i'll pave the way And you can talk to as many of them as you want and i'll rephrase i can't say that I know about 40 to 50 of them and you can have your pickers. Whichever ones interest you the most Thank you all in association. Did you have anything to add? I would just like to say thank you for that opportunity, but i have spoken to several local physicians and they are Not as positive and optimistic as you and the other paid employees by taser international So but thank you for the offer I do need to respond to that I understand that however, I just to put it in perspective I have deposed four medical examiners in the last month And it's interesting after they make certain statements on autopsies, etc They know nothing about electricity. They know nothing about how electricity affects the body other than extreme electrocution They know nothing about it very little about excited allureum sudden death metabolic acidosis all these other issues They don't know those and I If you want the depositions, I'll even provide them to you and example one in the holcomb case down in Ohio medical examiner said two of them said taser Was a contributory cause of death in the holcomb case even put in a press release The taser would not have killed him had it not been for the meth on board. I'll be more than happy to provide you with dr. Deans and dr Whatever the other one was with both of their depositions. They know nothing about electricity They know nothing about the effect on the body. They knew nothing about tasers. They knew nothing about excited allureum They did not do a neurochemistry exam when asked. Okay. What was the mechanism by which the taser device contributed? I don't know What is the lowest percentage you would give us on how much you believe the taser contributed? Zero point zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero one percent The bottom line is Local positions unless they've studied this topic in depth do not know it and I would I would bet that against almost any of them And like I said, I can provide the depositions the expert reports the transcripts whatever you need aluminum wire Thank you, mr. Chairman And I think what the problem is here is that these electrical devices have not been studied to the full extent I think they were put on the streets too soon In this country we have 150 people that have died since june of 01 after being taser We have a man in mcquanago that died in in may It turned out he was tasered 12 times the autopsies showed he had no medication of any kind in his system Right now we have researchers in madison Using pigs as their subjects and in may one did die Now amnesty international has asked that law enforcement pull these devices these 50 000 volt electrical charge devices Off the streets until all this research can come in and we will be having educated Something to base things on and if they are so safe Why has taser international settled 20 million dollars in lawsuits as of today? Thank you Okay ready Number one. Let me address the researcher in madison. That is dr. John webster He's a very knowledgeable man. He's a very good man. We deposed him last thursday Here is Here is what he said and I will be more than happy to provide you with his deposition I have a rough draft of it. Now if you want the phone, I'll give it to you His latest research report said the chance of causing vf ventricular fibrillation from a taser x26 is 0.0014 No, I'm sorry. There's four zeros zero zero zero four one four That is the chance of getting vf from a taser device now that also assumes a it's an incredibly thin individual There's no one in this room that has a thinner. No, I'm not saying you're heavy. That's not what I'm saying But the problem is that the the barb on the taser is nine millimeters. It's about three three eighths of an inch It has to penetrate all the way through has to be at a direct direct angle It has to go between the ribs It has to go between the cartilage between the ribs and then it has to be at the bottom of the respiratory cycle Dr. Webster To put this into perspective as far as nationwide in nationwide as far as potential for death He said in his deposition In order for someone in the us to get vf from a taser. It is point zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero that's that's eight zeros one four that is 1.4 out of 100 million Now and that that assumes that the taser goes Totally into the body no clothing it assumes it goes straight in not at an angle It assumes it goes all the way into the nine millimeter mark that's in his testimony in his deposition from last week now 150 people died since 91 or since 90 that number comes from the arizona republic and the actual number is 167 However, when you do the analysis what it says is 167 people died after being tasered If you look at some of the statistics that the chief has on the studies that have been done People have been dying from excited to learn type events for many years and a 12 month study that was done Whatever 160 whatever that was checked there was only 30 of the times that taser was even present that taser is not killing these people If you look at those 167 here's what you'll find out of that 167 one One was the direct cause of death 18 it was listed as contributory now. Let's talk about contributory The two medical examiners we deposed two weeks ago one of them. Dr. Haynes said yes I listed as a contributory because it also included stress So therefore the stress contributed to the death And this is someone who his father called the police because he was high on meth Actually, he had a toxic level on board He had been throwing their furniture out of the house including up on the roof in other people's neighborhoods, etc So and then also if you look at 167 there are approximately 10 where they said they couldn't rule out the taser Couldn't rule it in they couldn't rule it out. There's a study that has been done It has not been published yet that will basically show there's only out of that 167 There's only two that are even in question Now as far as studies No other law enforcement devices ever been studied as much as taser and if you talk to the medical professionals They will tell you medical devices are not tested as much as taser If you wish it, I can provide you with over 3 000 pages just on taser testing from multiple countries The home office in the united kingdom, which unlike here in the states in in britain There's one office that controls all the police They spent over 4.5 million dollars testing tasers and they basically said they are safe for their intended purpose The canadian police research center their two last reports that came out in june and august of 2005 They both said there's absolutely no causal link between the taser and death We have over 80 such studies in our possession. I can provide it to a electronic format be happy to do so Also, we have over 300 articles on excited delirium methamphetamine cocaine Toxicity chronic and acute etc that do cause death. I can provide those to you as well The bottom line is there's absolutely no causal connection between tasers and death period If you if the homework is done and if all the facts actually come out That's why as far as lawsuits we're at 23 and 0 now the 20 million dollar settlement Where that came from was because Back in january of 05 The stock was manipulated in order to cover shorts what a short is you know how we all bet on stock In other words, I buy stock. We hope it goes up. We sell it What a short does is buys high or borrows it high and then hopes it goes down and it takes a profit in the meantime What happened was information was inappropriately leaked to the new york times That got a front page article in january of 05 that article eight months later They denounced it and said it never should have been published But that started the u.s. Department of justice to start investigation Within one day after that was announced taser was sued by a group of 61 different attorneys across the country In a securities and exchange class action lawsuit on two issues issue one was the medical safety of tasers Issue two was the immense drop in the taser stock On the medical issue of tasers the u.s. Department of justice in december of 05 said No further action because we sent over a hundred thousand pages of documentation proof etc No further action the arizona attorney general said the same thing the 20 million dollars. It was real simple They went into a settlement conference approximately two months ago Planiffs all these plaintiffs attorneys from across the country wanted 320 million They walked out with 20 Why'd they walk out with 20 because they were threatening five years of litigation They were going to go to every one of our customers and drag the chief and others into litigation and force them into deposition Everything else and we weren't about to let our customers go through that So that's what that was that wasn't to settle taser injury cases That was to settle the securities and exchange commission litigation was brought forth in january of 05 That all got started by the new york times that was later denounced that the u.s. Department of justice even said There's no basis for any further action. That's where all that flowed from Thank you element kiddleton Thank you, mr. Chair Um, I I don't know if there are people who would like to respond to that But I wanted to go on to a different uh topic with the I wanted to ask chief kirk about the policies and procedures I I think we were given a manual that was put on our desk And I wondered if this is the current policy and procedure manual and how often is that reviewed and have there Any changes been made it was dated um april third of this year and that was I believe put on our desk You're absolutely right. Uh, there should have been a manual or policies placed on everyone's desk. They were asked and we we were People were told to place them on the desk as far as other committees that received these we provided policies whenever asked The reevaluation date is an annual note on the policy It was put into effect in april on april third of this year and on an annual basis Any other issues as far as policy and the development? As was stated before We are accredited agency. We do Policy development and we ask those who are knowledgeable in the area to go out and seek other policies I am sure we have used applesons policy We conform with the state of wisconsin's defense and arrest tactics policy. So we We do not try to reinvent the wheel We certainly grab any policies from any agencies that apply and then we sit down with those knowledgeable For example tim irrick was it was a huge role in the policy development of tasers Thank you. Just so everybody knows I got I've always had like five lights here. I'm just taking them as people People ask so all of them are Thank you. Chairman van der wilk This shabuagan police department directive is what is policy? Okay. So that's what you're talking about I thank lieutenant nickles for giving us some good information about policies and things How close is this directive to the policy business that you were talking about? Can you speak to me ma'am? Yes. Yes, please I haven't had a chance to review it. I can look at it very quickly. However, the language that he read to you before about the Shall not be brandish or displayed as directly the same language is out of our policy So i'm assuming it's it's based heavily on ours, but I will I will review it very quickly I appreciate that because I like The things that you were saying that um It should be used When it's necessary Not for punishment. Absolutely and and um I would hope that you know after you look at that and I would guess there would be some more things that we'd need to add to that or review or Newer things that we should add to that I would like to the committee would recommend that Our police department do that within the next 30 days get an up-to-date comprehensive Policy that would meet all that criteria and maybe also in include in that Some of the continuing education things that that our officers may be going through when it comes to the use of tasers And maybe not I don't know well if I want to use the word sensitivity training But the training of special needs people which are varieties of special needs I'd be more than more than willing to provide I have five or six policies that I consider model policies From around the state. Um, they'd be happy to share. I also have a A I think a very good power point program on The medical emergencies as uh as was brought up before recognizing that some of these incidents are not criminal behavior It's medical emergency and they need to be traded that way be happy to share that information as I get it and I you can look at your policy and update it as as necessary one of the key elements that many agencies missed early on was simply having a policy that said Active resistance or a threat of active resistance and and I'll give you one example. I think we're you end up with Kind of a term that we've coined or I've coined in the training. I do if you just simply say Resistance or threat of active resistance You end up with lawful, but awful uses of the device Um, what you need to do is have a policy that not only spells out what active resistance or threat is But that you must describe Some type of threat of harm to you or someone else if you have for instance a Uh, a person who a police officer goes and says sir, you're under arrest for this warrant And that person slams his fist on the table and use some Expletives and says I'm not going with you and if you attempt to take me I'm gonna gonna hurt you um And he's that size and you know these kind of factors I think that we can certainly articulate a physical fight is a threat of harm in wisconsin We don't have to and we're directed to always maintain a position of advantage if the person wants to wrestle with us We aren't supposed to wrestle with them. Okay the second situation and could we use it on that person? According to your policy. Yes, and I think it would be appropriate now you get sent to the Elementary school to the fifth grade emotional disabilities class And johnny needs to go see a social worker and you say johnny come with me and he slams his fist on the table Uses expletives to you and says that he's going to hurt you if you try and do that If your policy simply says threat of active resistance is that by definition of threat of active resistance My I think by definition it is but where is there a describable threat of harm to you or anyone else? So, I mean that's where your training and your and your uh policy must be very clear So I'd be happy to provide that Just one minute deputy sherman you had something to add Another person want uh, what uh, uh, lieutenant nickels was talking about is we can address that Exactly in what we have in our policy the taser is analogous to oc spray on the disturbance resolution model And may be used by trained officers when a subject is threatening to actively resist Or is actively resisting an officer and the subject pose an articulable threat of harm to an officer or to another person It may also be used when a subject pose a threat of harm to himself or herself as inflicting injury Or a suicide attempt. So I believe that addresses it Exactly what lieutenant nickels was talking about and that's the exact language from our policy But could I make a recommendation that or a motion to recommend that this committee asked To have up to date very up to date and with all sort of policy Maybe with a little more language in that what and there's a lot of language here But even with a little bit more language in that we have than we have here Specifically addressed to the special needs people Second I guess I guess I like to address that it's part of public the special needs In this particular case that we keep coming back at the rehabilitation center where there's this concern There was 10 professionals there. They couldn't handle the person They're not going to they're they're calling the police because they've got to deal with the violence The police aren't going to be able to have all this training Combined that these special professionals are going to have and not have an all-knowing answer They have to be the police are there to protect the safety of everyone including the the individual himself And I think we have to keep that in mind when we're addressing the special needs I understand that and I meant other special needs like like alderman sushi said Pregnant or other things and I would guess that in your training. I would hope That you have addressed those things other than just the bad guys out on the street that give you a lot of trouble Yes, we have our officers are first responders medically Their first responders medically they they have the cpr training They have medical training and how to deal with with things uh diabetes things on that order We have some officers that were were emergency medical medical technicians when we used to have the ambulance service So officers do have training as far as as far as medical needs first responding training I meant in relation to taser use the excuse me the lesson plan from For your instructors does include a very significant in length power point presentation that deals with Deploying the device on subjects who are pregnant on things like that that is addressed in training. I would You know that the policy development is certainly Up to the the people from the department here But you want to be careful not to make your policy a training manual Otherwise, you'll be it'll be very difficult to Um to comply with your own policy But that I they can provide you with that power point which addresses much of what you're talking about They they do get that information in their training session Thank you Um, we'll vote on that motion But first I'd like to get everybody else who's waiting here uh alderman ryan Thank you, mr. Chairman First of all, I'd like to thank lieutenant nickels and lieutenant bray for being here today. I think both of you gentlemen are uh Very well qualified in your field And I think your knowledge uh your your education in the use of tasers is uh beyond question First of all, I think what we need to point out here is a taser is part of the police departments array of weapons It's not a something that is used first Um, basically what it is. It's another deterrent to violence If I look here on our stats uh Over 50 of the times that a taser was displayed it wasn't used And it was only displayed When there was a threat To a bodily harm for the officer or another person that that is policy along with Other weapons that the police department has um I would think the the Next day after an incident the average person would rather uh wake up Um with the memory a bad memory of being tased rather than waking up with a lump on their head From being struck with a baton Or worse wake up with a uh or not wake up after uh use of deadly force So I think what we need to to really look at is Is what the weapon is all about and how it's being used And uh, I think that this this panel is telling us that it is being used properly And professionally in our police department um It is a deterrent It is it is not It is it is meant as a deterrent as as alderman Older person not to may or sad When people see it they generally comply and I I believe that I don't think that As a counsel We should Second guess our police department on this issue When and I I believe it has been used Properly and I believe it should be used properly in the future. Thank you Thank you alderman ryan alderman susha Thank you, mr. Chairman. Um I was just looking at some of the statistical reports that were placed on our desk And um, there's a one page summary from april 22nd through october 8th And I'm assuming this is the most up-to-date one compared to the other two reports that we have Would that be accurate? The uh lengthy document there is provided by the police department the condensed version comes out of the mayor's office Okay All right, um Well, thank you for providing this I guess one of my one of my concerns is that we have one of the reports is dated September 7th, and then we have another one It doesn't have a date on it But it's stamped that it was received in the mayor's office on october 9th And from what I can tell it looks like Just based on that we we're almost using it the taser every other day Are there any statistics showing how that compares to other communities of our size? Is that normal to be using it every other day? Is that less often than other communities or is that moral? First off if I could just One of the things that we've seen on a national basis is that a lot of times the taser is deployed in approximately One percent or less of the arrests So what I would like to see too is how many incidents of arrest as the agency had over the same time frame But it's just as a guide And then I have another question about the reports on our desk If I may follow up Three children under the age of 16. How old were the kids when you taste them? Once again that comes out of the mayor's office that that I'd have to Reflect that one to lieutenant Eric I would show that There was a 15 year old asian male that the weapon was displayed at but was never deployed There was a 15 year old hispanic male That the weapon was displayed at But it was never deployed And the other one was a 14 year old white male Where the weapon was uh used in a drive stun without the cartridge By an officer Thank you Thank you, mr. Chairman I guess and I'd like to see and look at these statistics here And first off, what's the difference between the asian male or hispanic male or white male if they're people I mean women men doesn't make any difference to me But when I take a look at this, I'd like to see Statistics from last year before the tasers on what type of force or whatever you need to do to Take somebody to custody. So whether it was a baton or pepper spray You know kind of a year today for the same period and then compare that to the taser And to just as a comparison Because I think that might shed a little bit more light onto this For me as to what what these actually You know the situations of course probably a little bit different from time to time But at least there's something to compare it to how many times to use a baton or pepper spray at the same period last You were using the tasers this year. That's something that I would like to see On this and then the other question they would have would be for the lieutenant Um With the cameras on the tasers when we finally get them Would that be a training tool for for the future to go back and Take those cameras into the training room show these officers that this is the situation Whatever we have on the camera, of course, I mean you're not going to get the full incident up there Would that be a good training tool? First off I can address some of those issues. Uh, this taser report statistics form This came out of conversations that the mayor and I have had It's been revised multiple times In this data It takes either the lieutenant the deputy chief or our secretaries To read these documents to determine And provide you this information. So some of this information Please allow us some time and please provide us what you want Because this this has been changed numerous times And we attempt to provide as much information on there and as we were looking at this tonight before the meeting We notice that we don't even have the date of incident on here, which may be I mean another piece of information that could be of of importance. Um so with that this as Alderman susha has indicated there. She's got different dates on some of the reports. Well, that's been a work in progress Um changing what's needed. What would you like next things of that nature? Uh second off uh with cameras on tasers, of course, it could be a training tool And if I could just say I've had uh quite a few alderman call me and ask me to put certain things on the agenda questions they have for uh The police department or chief kurik and and I put them on the agenda and if you ever have any questions, just give me a call I'll respond real quickly to your question about the camera Um, and all you're going to get is an opinion because and you know, I mean, it's debatable The city of appleton chose not to go with the cameras and that was mainly because of my input um the lieutenant, uh Probably used the exact words that I would have used when describing the camera systems The problem with the camera system is it is not activated until the weapon is turned on and pointed at the person Our agency provides uh in car camera systems and an audio system to our officers And I don't want our officers using a weapon as a camera Um, I was concerned with that the one advantage that I think it will provide though Is the follow through procedures and the necessity for multiple cycles and things like that So I think it has significant value We so it really provides it's a decision that you need to need to make Our agency chose not to do it the other thing that I was concerned with is Things happen very quickly as the lieutenant said and sometimes you are You're the recipient of a sudden assault the person's talking to you and the next thing they're coming at you You get it out of the holster turn it on There's a short delay before it even starts to record And the only thing you're going to see for justification for that officer deploying the device It may be a half second window of a person coming at them without all the words that preceded it Or what we call pre-attack postures and things like that and and that can be an issue But I think it does um, it does provide some great benefit for Was their necessity for multiple cycles and and how could we do this better? So that That's kind of a both ways answer on it I would ask that We agreed to to buy cameras for these items to get them on the road We have purchased or we have ordered these cameras if in fact You want to listen to lieutenant nickels and not go with the cameras because of some of the concerns and flaws That we allow that dollar amount eight thousand dollars To be used to purchase approximately nine more units or nine more tasers So we have more tasers available to our officers on the road the ones that need them Thank you chief crook Alderman serda Thank you, mr. Chairman I just have two questions, um, which I think will address the real reason why we're here tonight is concerning this one incident Number one does our current policy? address or sensitive to individuals which, um, Elder person montemare has cited and secondly did we adhere to that policy in this incident? Um, I will be voting against this motion I think there's a danger that we can become emotional given Each particular incident that we use a taser in and try to gear it towards such I would be much more comfortable comfortable than having um lieutenant nickels provide More than five minutes of looking over our policy and if you see any suggestions offering that to our department Could I just address several issues here? First on the policy Our policy is as current as it's going to be for the time being and if anything new does come out We immediately address it and it's immediately given out to all officers And right now I don't know if there's anything When I put the policy together, I think I read nine different policies throughout the state And appleton was one and I believe I stole a lot of this information out of there like the chief said I don't want to remake the wheel Um, so I would have to say ours is right now is the most current it is In this form that doesn't mean that next week something doesn't come out or something new doesn't come out from the state That we won't immediately put into our policy um as it has to do with this incident with the, um Incident rcs. I want to be a little careful because this is still an open case It still has to go to court to be adjudicated um but When this incident occurred it occurred on my shift. It was on of my officers um The officer that was involved is one of the finer street officers we have on this department um When he arrived at this scene, he did not immediately draw that taser And shoot the individual to put him into compliance that officer Talked to the people that were there Found out what the situation was He was told that if you try to talk to the individual calmly you might be able to calm him down The officer immediately went over to him and talked to him calmly try Addressed him by his first name told me he was a police officer He was there to try to help him he needed to calm down and we needed to rectify the situation He talked to him for some period of time I can't tell you exactly how long but it was a normal tried conversation at that point The individual then spit in the officer's face The officer still remained calm He still tried to settle him down tried to talk to him the taser didn't even enter his Thought process at this point. It wasn't until that individual started directing his behavior not towards the officer But started directing it towards other individuals within the rcs building Understand that this individual did not belong at the rcs building. He was not a member of rcs He was there with another Caretaker who I believe was picking up another member So rcs doesn't even have him as a client At that point the officer felt for the safety of individuals and you got to remember that some of these individuals that were at rcs Our wheel bone chair people who cannot defend themselves This individual was striking out at everything and anything that he could get at It lay it did not give the officer any opportunity other than what he felt was to use a taser You can argue that maybe we could have used pepper spray But pepper spray in a lot of these situations like uh previously stated was not a good option Using a night stick was not a good option And it lay it gave the officer Only one option the problem is one officer was initially sent there The other officers that were assisting coming to help him were minutes out He had to act in that situation Otherwise, I think without due diligence someone else would have been injured and that in and that person couldn't have defended themselves And and therefore he selected the best option he had at that time And you remember these situations are Are very fast We can now sit back and we can sit here and dissect the singing every which way we can figure out because we got time But in those types of situations they happen so rapidly The officer doesn't have a lot of time. He has to work on his experience and what he knows is in front of him Thank you. Is there any other questions for the panel? With that, I'd like to thank lieutenant Nichols and mr. Brave for coming here and sharing their their knowledge and time. Thank you very much And uh, so we have a motion on the floor and um, all of them on tomorrow could repeat the motion and Tell us where you want to go a policy issue discussing policies should go to public protection safety. I believe Well, I would make I would like that it would go to council We would have a favorable recommendation We're going to council that the policy be brought very much up to date have lieutenant Nichols help with that and then it also in that policy address the Address the the issue of maybe not hate the word sensitivity training But you know what i'm talking about in continuing education if the special needs people not just this one gentleman at rcs but Diabetic or anything like that when it comes to use of taser because it's going to be those odd problems where there's going to be a True damage not the regular tough guy on the street. It's going to be the The problems that you don't see every day that the the people who have have special needs I hope you'll recognize you figure it out or something Um a policy that we'll talk about that and I don't know maybe work together with the mayor or something to put together That's an awfully long motion, but you know what i'm trying to say thank you Chief cricket something to say I guess as far as the the motion is concerned I think you have to look at and what lieutenant eric has indicated lieutenant eric indicated He's reviewed nine different policies from around the state. He's been trained by lieutenant Nichols We did look at appletons policies Our policies are updated on a regular basis. This is which it's reviewed annually by our staff We've had it now for about six months Any time that there are changes they are addressed immediately When possible in policy? I think first stated that uh as lieutenant eric indicated This is as current as possible at the present time Will we address these changes that need to be addressed? Well, certainly we will We have a policy book that contains approximately i'm guessing now but a hundred policies So there's this is not the only policy that we have and medical issues and concerns are addressed in other policies So is lieutenant Nichols recognized as one of the regional best? Well, yes, of course That's why we ask him to come here today. That's why we sent our lieutenant to him to be trained He's a product of lieutenant Nichols That's why we had uh Mike brave come here today to provide you any answers now. I would also address If you have any questions as far as the heart the pacemaker things of this nature These issues have been brazed before please address those before we go tonight Thank you chief elman ryan Thank you, mr. Chairman I don't believe it's necessary to change a policy or to update a policy that is already current Is lieutenant irick said this policy is less than six months old. He studied policies from all over the place the the policy regarding use of force Is not only Dealing with tasers it's dealing with with all levels of force and i'm sure that the police department Has addressed Special needs people People with medical conditions. Um, I I I know that the average officer would recognize if a a woman was x amount of months pregnant and Act accordingly So I do not believe at this point To try to change the police department's policy when it doesn't need to be changed Is nothing more than an opportunity for for this council to grill our police department once again So i'm going to vote against this Thank you all and ryan, uh, mayor pres Thank you, mr. Chairman. I just wanted to ask Lieutenant nickles as elmer month in my order was saying That perhaps she feels quite strongly that our policy Although some refer to it as current that it should be it should include some sort of Standards for for for not only detecting no notice and are dealing with people with the special needs, etc I notice you're not in your head. I would take that that was an agreement Is there anything wrong? First of all, that's a true problem question. Does your policy in appleton have anything like that? Secondly, if it does or doesn't Is there anything wrong with a policy addressing that issue? It's not asking for a lot at least in my mind to to uh to ease the public as to the uh the The coverage so to speak that our policy would provide To uh people who who aren't particularly identified in the policy My answer my answer to that question was would be this I think it is very important to address it But not necessarily in policy I believe that what you're talking about is a training issue and needs to be you need to have the most current and up-to-date Training and taser has updated their training in the last couple of years And there are some significant changes that have occurred and some of those things like like in my training as I shared with you earlier We added to taser's training to deal with Elevated justification when you're dealing with an emotionally disturbed person when you're dealing with somebody in a medical crisis that That type of thing should be addressed in Training not necessarily policy. I've read your policy and and I think it's a good policy I haven't studied it for an hour, but I think it is a very good and current policy There may be some other changes that there may be some other Pieces of information from other policies that I have from around the state that maybe the lieutenant didn't have He can look at and consider those but I think you have a very solid policy I think the issues the main issues i'm hearing here are critical training issues not necessarily policy issues It's very difficult to put in policy an all exclusive list or all inclusive list, excuse me Of special needs or of medical conditions and I think that that's more training issue than a policy issue I I think what I gather from the the motion here though is they would like The alderman would like for you to take a look at it make the recommendations if you have not fine But if you do and those recommendations would be incorporated into the policy It stands now and perhaps make it better if there aren't any all that's required to say to me it's okay But to vote a motion down simply because we're assuming already And we have you haven't had an opportunity to look at it Not only have you not had an opportunity to look at it. You're very willing to help us out And I really appreciate that because I'm really impressed with your knowledge And and your your open mind is about situations that deal with the use and non use of tasers. So There's nothing wrong With asking you this council asking you take a look at it You may come back and say perfectly all right But I had plenty of time to look at it or you may come back and say you know what Maybe if you add just this one thing it'll make it a lot better I would be happy to do that. I'd be honored to do that and I would Certainly also invite the opportunity to look at the training lesson plan That's currently being used to train the officers and and make some recommendations at that. Thank you Thank you Alderman bro President bro. Yes. Thank you. Mr. Chairman. I guess a couple thoughts I Given that we've gotten an agreement of Evaluating policies. I guess I don't know that that needs the formal motion of the council It seems like that seems to be reasonable due diligence. I guess the problem I have with the Motion relates in many ways. We spent a lot of time talking about training My training is that is as a psychologist For many years, my primary job function was management and supervision of public sector mental health services specifically dealing with individuals who would Be confronted by the police under chapter 51 20 or chapter 55 In other words an individual who presented with behavior such that they were dangerous to themselves or others In our state and virtually all states the only individual who can take Such an individual into protective custody is a sworn officer Psychologists can't do it social worker can't do it a psychiatrist can't do it. We need a police officer. I guess in my Several years of experience in doing that. I've always been impressed with the sensitivity Of all of the local departments and how they've approached situations like that If there were situations where danger presented either to that individual or to the officer Typically I felt that their use of force was appropriate and measured and that they use whatever verbal techniques they could to try and if you would Deal with the situation before moving up the continuum of force The difficulty I find is defining. What is special needs? You need to look at the behavior of the individual and what they're presenting not their diagnosis Because the diagnosis is something you may not have available And I think it still comes down to what behavior does the officer or the individual confront when they see the individual And over I guess my time in public sector mental health. I've again Been impressed and trusted the sensitivity that law enforcement has shown to situations where an individual May be under extreme stress or duress or experiencing a significant mental health problem So again, I I don't see the need to address that in policy. Thank you Thank you president berg all the men for hassle. Thank you, mr Chair I can't speak for those making the motion however. I guess myself after looking at the policy I wouldn't mind a little bit more detail a little bit more comprehensive detail For instance, do we shoot the taser at fleeing suspects? Yes or no, do we shoot the taser at pregnant suspects? Yes or no, you know, what is Of course, we can't hit every possibility like element berg said that's a pretty broad range when we talk about special needs But if we could address some of the obvious and more common possibilities, I think that is something I'd feel more comfortable with To me, I mean it was suggested earlier that Putting too much information there. I guess it was suggested that every time we look at an incident We're revisiting this whole emotional roller coaster of How how we used it or not? And I guess if we do have a more comprehensive policy to me That takes the emotion out of the entire argument the more detail the more that's in writing The less we're there to you know be suspicious about So I think it would be who the department maybe to have a little bit more detail in there and take the emotion out of it And the argument out of it Thank you all the member hassle when when we start talking about policy and looking into it having people review it is one thing But when we need to be careful, we want to start micromanaging and say this is what you need This is what you need because that is what our department heads are for Alderman henna Thank you, gentlemen A couple things I last week I shared with the with the mayor an article from the wall street journal, which indicated that unfortunately there's a growing trend For special needs individuals to be out and about in the community So I do support that the we need to increase our training to recognize behaviors and respond appropriately And again also let's make sure the policies Comprehensive and up to date I agree. I don't want to micromanage policies. I am actually more concerned that training is At the peak level Thank you. Alderman henna. Alderman susha Thank you, mr. Chairman When you look at the the training section, I mean, I just am borrowing Alderman person month Myers document right now You know, I see an awful lot about force it talks about use of force firearm proficiency firearm training You know certified weapons instructor what I think is missing in the training is Something relating to interpersonal skills. I mean, you do have it on the continuum that you do talk about dialogue and Things like that, but it's not in the training You're not getting into the interpersonal skills where you actually talk to the people to try to work through their issues It does sound like the example that a lieutenant irrick talked about that with the rcs person that they did do a very good job Of communicating with them, but alderman henna is correct We're trying to mainstream a lot more of these folks that weren't on the street five years ago And I think as as society is changing we have to take that into account and you know Putting it in the training for the tasers would be a good place and perhaps in in other different Segments we could also do more training in addition to working on interpersonal skills perhaps even bringing in a psychiatrist to address the officers to talk about psychotic behavior and Some of the the things that might set people off or the do's and don'ts and things like that that might also be Beneficial um, whether that specific needs to be put into the taser training I'm not sure, but I really think that some interpersonal skills training would be warranted and it would be just one little sentence that they could add to training Um, I'm gonna get a little turn irrick first and then I'll I'll give you I guess um when you talk about interpersonal training I'm not sure what you're getting at because You're looking at right now. We started discussing tasers here tonight and you're looking at a List of about 50 deployments But I think you're missing the big picture here and the big picture is is that the schwing police officers Have roughly about 70 000 complaints. We handle a year. That's not including all the non Stamp complaints we go to so if you're talking about interpersonal skills You get some of the finest officers in the state here talking to people not using force Using nothing but their dialogue and and getting people to comply And I it's an ongoing process that all officers go through in interpersonal skills. Um, It's called experience. It's called maturity. It's called learning from your partners What works good and what doesn't work good? We do do they do do a lot of training. It's my understanding at the um in Recruit school level. We do some training at in-service on on a Yearly basis so the officers are ongoing. I I guess I'm I'm a little lost because For the vast majority the vast majority of the times the officers are are using outstanding skills as interpersonal skills But you're just looking at a very very small piece of the puzzle that the officers are dealing with These are the highly charged highly emotional situations that the officers are dealing with and they have actually gone through a list They've tried to calm the person down. They've tried to talk them down. They've tried to Do other things um, and it gets to a point that They have nothing else to use but the other tools they have on their belt Um, so for to give officers more training at that training is always good But I I hope this council doesn't come away with this attitude that the shiboy and police officers do not have Any interpersonal skills or aren't ongoingly trained in interpersonal skills because they are Thank you, mr. Greg just very briefly I don't know if you're aware of this or not But about 20 years ago a man by the name of mr. George Thompson started verbal judo for law enforcement Was the state of wisconsin has dramatically taken that to a hugely higher level I don't know if you're aware, but they now have a professional communications instructor course This is taught throughout the state as part of their tactics training and also all recruits today go through professional communications And inside those professional communications. They do address the special needs the emotionally disturbed and there's actually simulation training On helping the officers who go through that interact with those people much much better So that is something that wisconsin has actually taken from what I work I do this stuff nationally They have actually taken as far as i'm concerned the leading role in the united states in that area And i'm sure that your training staff can get you their lesson plan their communication book And they also have videos available as well at no charge the department or anyone else Also for the gentleman over here just so you know in the taser training It specifically does address in quite some depth where there's elevated Risk to individuals such as the one you brought up which is fleeing That is an elevated risk because of the forward momentum Another one is if they are in water because of the risk that they could drown because they can't catch themselves One of those is because if the person is obviously frail another one of course is a pregnant female The principal fear there is from falling all of those things are addressed in the training within the taser And the things that you guys are really concerned about and I agree with your concern Again wisconsin as far as I know is the number one place in the country for that type of training as we sit here today And wisconsin is also leading and developing the excited delirium program, which i'm sure dave nickles is very much a part of Thank you Alderman brahassel. Thank you, mr. Chair I just on the you know on the issue of micromanaging I agree with you 100 there is a point that you can go too far and would become ineffective But i'm sure you'll also agree that taking a broad stroke approach to something can be equally as ineffective You know to the point that there's no direction or very little direction So I guess having been you know in the business professional for the last 15 years I've seen both sides of it and I think maybe somewhere in between maybe a little bit more comprehensive detail It might be both good for both sides Thank you. Alderman brahassel. I I agree with you alderman ryan Thank you, mr. Chairman our police department are professionals highly trained professional Dedicated lieutenant iraq writes the the the policies the training etc He's a professional doing what he does It's not the job of this council to micromanage our police department these gentlemen know a lot more about what they're doing Then we do that's why they're the police officers and we're not At this point I'd like to call the question And The question has been called So there will be no other discussion And I will ask president berg to do the role Yes, please um Alderman montaner, could you repeat the motion? Okay Here we go I make a motion The committee of the whole recommend to the council or recommend to the police department or whichever is the appropriate Way to go to put together Completely comprehensive policy Regarding the taser use in shabuagan have lieutenant nickles look at it closely get that to you to us To see if he has any suggestions about things that maybe we should add perhaps more detail as Alderman verhasel had said so that The training the This policy this directive or policy is completely up to date and comprehensive as it possibly can be Thank you, and special needs especially Alderman sushi you have second that motion Okay Go ahead alderman burg with the roll born burg no Surdom davis rock hannah kittleston plahunas mire monta meore radke ryan sushi van der wheel no perhaps let Worship fails Thank you president burge Alderman graph Thank you Mr. Chairman The discussion tonight and everything that happened tonight was was very good, but I do believe that overseeing the policy and possibly some training procedures and and so forth is really the responsibility of the public protection and safety committee The standing committee that the the police and fire and so forth report to I think a lot of information was was given to the chairman tonight seeing You're the chairman of public protection and safety and something like that could be brought up and discussed at Connects public protection and safety me and then whatever comes out of that can be reported to councilor as a report of committee And I think that's the way it should be done and and needs to be done and with that being said Regarding item number five on our agenda, which is the rc 171 and The rl 146 so 607 I would move that both those documents be placed on our recommended to be placed on file Second I have a motion to second The roll call again Moran Here bird here sardar here gavis graph Hanna kittleston plihunas nanny excused Meyer Montemayor Radke Ryan Shusha for haslett 15 present One excused and I'm here. You didn't call me yourself We have a quorum next on the agenda's RC number 541 0506 and then our old number 1510607 alderman graph Thank you, mr. Chairman I would move at this time that the rc number 541 And the the to the roe and the general ordinance that is attached to that And our own number 150607 That all those documents be placed on file I have a motion to second under discussion under discussion. Mr. Chairman The reason I'm doing this is as it's been pointed out several times this document Is some of these documents are almost 11 months old if not longer older and It may be a great idea to do this But there's half the council that was just elected Prior or after this document came to be and many of them probably don't even have copies of What the the resolution stated and what was needed? And I feel if if there is a need for this committee To be formed that the the original drafters or maybe new drafters of it can Can resubmit it and bring it back into the new council and we can act on it On a much much faster basis and in addition to that This is something that should have been discussed. I think in in either A strategic fiscal planning commission or in one of the other committees prior to being discussed at the committee of the whole Thank you. Alderman gruff alderman montemarer Thank you chairman bandy will I can understand what alderman gruff is talking about as one of the authors of this And I understand most of you don't have this I brought my copy along and The intent and purpose of the community relations is an advisory board and shall study analyze recommend solutions for discrimination in housing employment and public accommodations And facilities on the basis of sex class Race age religion sexual orientation or ethnic or minority status It goes on to appointments and the terms the duties and the authorities Equal housing accommodations and to enjoy equal employment opportunities Examine the need for initiate participate and promote publicly and privately sponsored studies and programs and human relationship fields And so far so I think Even if we file this tonight I think it would be a good thing to bring forward because it would then be another Board commission to look at those sorts of things in the community that wouldn't be us. It wouldn't be The police it would be a separate group looking at these sorts of things because I know in my neighborhood there was a A landlord at one time that refused to Rent to anything other than white Thank you. Thank you. Alderman montemarer Alderman Meyer Thank you. Mr. Chairman. I would like to take all these items and vote on them separately. All right. Alderman montemarer Meyer We will do that Is there any other discussion on the motion? Alderman susha Thank you, mr. Chairman. I'm not sure how the vote is going to go on the community relations Commission, I do think that we should consider Putting that in place I'm not sure if the public is aware that that the police and fire commission does have the authority to listen to Police complaints separate from an internal investigation And I think at this point in time and tell whatever we do whatever we decide to do with the community relations If anybody does have a serious concern I would recommend that they contact the city attorney's office and perhaps he can give them some guidance on The proper form that we may already have in place that needs to be filled out And that would give us some time because even if we pass this tonight, it's going to take Probably a couple months before we get this commission in place and up and running So I guess in the meantime if anybody wants to file a complaint, I would suggest that they contact the city attorney's office in the meantime Thank you. Alderman susha. Is there any other discussion on the motion? Hearing none. Alderman burg could you call the roll? The dividing the question between The Communication from captain Wallace and the ordinance I would be I believe that was I believe all of them broth's original motion Was to take all the documents and file them that was second. So that's so that's the motion. We are currently considering We're voting to file all the communications Alderman Meyer asked for a division of the question therefore separate rolls need to be called on each item Thank you. Alderman graff All women in cleveness That was my question That was my question to be sure that we split it and Thank you. So we'll vote on item number six First and then item number seven is is that what you meant. Alderman Meyer No, um, thank you, mr. Chairman. I would like to vote on item number six one separately and then item six two separately and then item seven All right. Thank you Alderman born Alderman Meyer just answered my question. Thank you Okay, so We're going to vote on RC number five four one oh five oh six Our own number two three five oh five oh six to file that Alderman burg with the roll call Burg I Serta Davis I graph Hannah Kittleston Cleveness Meyer Montemayor Radke Ryan Shusha Vanderwheel hi for haslett 15 eyes Thank you, Alderman born motion passes And we will vote on RC number five four one oh five oh six general ordinance number 26 oh five oh six Alderman born or sorry, Alderman burg if you could call the roll Serta Davis I graph Hannah Kittleston Cleveness no Meyer Montemayor Radke Ryan Shusha Vanderwheel hi for hassel Warren Burg No more Kathy Motion fails Thank you Alderman burg Long and Racky Can I make a motion to send the stands of the council the favorable recommendation then? Motion a second to send the council with a favorable recommendation Any discussion Alderman Hannah Thank you chairman. It's my understanding that this is this is a commission that would be Would be no cost to the city to operate You know and I granted I've not had a lot of time to review it, but I think in in general I think it's heading in the right direction Thank you, Alderman Hannah. Is there any other discussion on the motion? Alderman born I didn't understand thank you, mr. Chairman I didn't understand what Alderman Racky is asking Could you clarify Alderman Racky well the motion to file it failed So I made a motion to send this on to council the favorable recommendation Correct. Is there any other discussion? Attorney Could you step up and uh And make a comment Is this on It should be Or maybe you got to turn on sounds like it's on Thank you, mr. Chairman. I just Have a couple comments about the document. I think the concept is good there's a statute that is on point that Authorizes municipalities to establish commissions on community relations And in fact the statute that uses language that encourages municipalities to do so um The section is cited in The first section 2-808. That's section 66.0125 of the wisconsin statutes I guess the concern I have is that the document that's Before you doesn't Doesn't track the the statutory authority as closely as I think it should and I think the The the biggest concern I have is in the complaint section that You've got current statutory procedures to deal with complaints against city employees. You've got the Civil service commission. You've got the police and fire commission. You've got the ethics board that deals ethics complaints against the city employees You've got the fair housing commission the statute that That this is derived from Doesn't have any provision in there for This commission having authority to hear disciplinary complaints against anyone what it is is Nonpartisan advisory body and the statutory language says To study analyze and recommend solutions For the major social economic and cultural problems which affect people residing or working within the local government or unit including Without restriction because of enumeration problems of the Of the family youth education the aging juvenile delinquency health and zoning standards and discrimination on housing employment public accommodations and facilities on the basis of sex and other prohibited basis of discrimination It doesn't provide for a complaint process. It does authorize this body to the whole public hearings But it's not public hearings to the extent that they're disciplinary hearings. In other words, there's no subpoena power given to this commission under the statute They do have the power to hold public hearings and the intent is to get input and and to discuss sort of broad Issues affecting the community that relate to Relationships in the community. It's not In my view, it's not the intent of this statutory body to be a complaint mechanism for Allegations of wrongdoing by city employees So that's the concern I have specifically with this document. I think a lot of it is is laudable and and Very good and I think Should be should be established if that's what the council wishes to do but Much of this I think Is is dealt with by other statutes is dealt with As a supervisory issue for employee complaints or citizen complaints about employees should be dealt with As a supervisory issue To the extent they aren't being addressed then department heads need to deal with that and The mayor and perhaps the council at that point but to authorize a forum for people to file complaints without Any provision in here that they be Notarized or sworn statements or anything like that. I think you're just opening up an area that is going to have Potential for a lot of problems so I guess My suggestion if If I would have one would be to Perhaps have a committee, you know look at this more carefully and Perhaps rework it and come back to the council with something else. That's my opinion you can do As you wish but As I say the provisions in here for complaints And disciplinary hearings is not Part of the contemplation of the statute. Thank you Thank you attorney mclean Deputy chief sherman could you come forward you have something to add Thank you. I'd like to address the council as far as the police department's position on this. We are We're definitely against this We're committed to the fair and equitable treatment of all of our citizens We're concerned about the well-being and the in the fairness of all the citizens in our community We already have a mechanism to address this. This is 62 13. This would be to the Through the police and fire commission if there's any problem with discipline This would be one unnecessary level of additional Scrutiny there's a lot of unanswered questions with this Our officer is entitled to legal representation is the city exposing itself to unnecessary litigation How will it affect the ongoing criminal or internal investigations? We just feel that it Opens a city to unnecessary legal problems A couple of other points the police department has been the victim of false accusations in the past We've been officers of there's been false Impressions of impoliteness Impressions of false impressions of dirty looks even the chief has been Accused falsely accused Iran doing the closure of 21st street and north avenue Police departments deal with confrontations all the time They don't call the police when things are going good We feel that this is arbitrary and broad and it should be rejected. Thank you Thank you. Thank you chief Thank you, mr. Chair Just a question for attorney mclean You were mentioning state statute does state statute prohibit shabuagan from establishing A committee that's being suggested by this resolution that would be able to hear complaints Is it does it prohibit us from doing so? Doesn't specifically prohibit that no, but it does say In section two of 6601 25 Uh an ordinance or resolution establishing a commission shall substantially embody the language of subsection three and subsection three gives The purpose of functions of the commission Which as I say does not include The complaint mechanism that Is in the proposed ordinance The city of shabuagan is well within their bounds of establishing a community relations Committee that would be able to hear complaints It's well within our boundaries to do what to establish a committee that would be able to hear complaints as is being suggested Well, we can do that as I say you can do anything you want But you've got to run into conflicting statutes discipline of police officers firefighters is exclusively the jurisdiction of the police and fire commission under 62 13 Uh civil service commission has authority to hear employee grievances if they employees Have an issue with uh discipline so we can appeal to the civil service commission They've got jurisdiction on employee discipline and employee complaints There's certainly nothing wrong with people with having a mechanism for people to make complaints against Uh city employees. I'm not suggesting that you can't do that or you shouldn't do that But what I'm suggesting is that I don't think that this is the appropriate vehicle for A resolution of complaints of discrimination That are alleged against city employees The uh The ordinance doesn't even address city employees Uh, it was only Newspaper articles subsequent to when this was introduced that there was an indication that this was going to be used or potentially used As a vehicle to hear complaints of discrimination against city employees. There's nothing in the language of the The ordinance that even talks about them Just to clarify if there were a An alleged complaint against a fireman for instance or a policeman Whatever the matter the police and fire commission would have authority to hear that complaint Yes, so this committee or this human relations committee would be A moot point when it comes to that specific type of situation Well, it wouldn't be a moot point if somebody filed a complaint with the commission and the issue is what do they do with But they wouldn't be able to weigh in on such a matter the police and fire commission would take over and well Under your ordinance, they would be able to it would be like a a dual recommendation or a dual No, how would that work? I don't think it would that's that's the problem. I see as a potential difficulty in administration Thank you. Thank you, uh, mayor press Thank you, mr. Chairman I guess I'm having a little difficulty going from a to z and not without the other 24 letters being there um This commission is not Legis being legislator or attempted to be legislated for the purpose of administering Disciplinar action against anybody. We all know Who can do that? uh this this commission is being put together to address public issues Big public public issues at this council nor the mayor nor some committees have the manpower to do the leg work or the research That's that's uh, just needed I'm not quite sure where attorney mclean is coming from because he had two times to to review this Himself and we both talked about it back and forth But somebody's trying to tell me that there's something in there that isn't I'm not seeing what what they're saying is that there's no There's no provision here to discipline Or to usurp I should say the power statutory power of the police and fire commission or the civil service commission or a department head But the only way a commission of this of this nature can address Public policy and make recommendations to the council is to have something before it And that's something before it has to be something that's credible And that's called a complaint Now that complaint can go somewhere or it can go nowhere But it will never go according to this it's never going to go And then to an attempt to try to administer disciplinary action against anybody we have entities for that purpose So to try to stretch it from A to Z without telling me where the other 24 letters are I don't know where that's going, but this is a very badly needed commission that addressed that will deal and tackle Severe issues and I'll give you a real good example of the reekie case with the nine dogs and the one cat and the Iwana I don't have the manpower. I don't have that You know the the the knowledge and the time to go and research that we had to do it We had to come up wit