Hey everybody, tonight we are debating whether or not demons exist and we are starting right now. Ladies and gentlemen, thrilled to have you here. This is going to be an epic one. Want to let you know if it's your first time here at Modern Day Debate, we are a non-partisan channel who focused on hosting debates on science, religion and politics. And so we want to let you know, no matter what walk of life you come from, we really do hope you feel welcome. If you love juicy debates on controversial topics, we want to let you know this coming Friday we will have the Flat Earth Debate to end all Flat Earth Debates as Aaron Raw and Nathan Thompson will be going one-on-one, so that should be an epic one. And hey, if you want reminders of debates like that, hit that subscribe button as we have many more debates to come. So with that, let me get rolling on this one. Very exciting stuff. I want to let you know first. We are thrilled to have our guests here. We really appreciate these guys and amazingly, though being regulars on the channel, we've been having you guys on for over, it's got to be over a year, could it be two years? So it's going on two years I think. So they've never actually crossed swords before. They've never debated, which I'm like, how is that? Okay, for tonight, we're going to have a fairly flexible format, namely about five to ten minutes. And that's up to the speakers and whether or not they want to use that five to ten minutes for their kind of open position statement and then open dialogue followed by Q&A. So if you happen to have a question, feel free to fire that question into the old live chat. If you tag me with At Modern Day Debate, it makes it easier for me to get every question in the list that we'll try to work through before we run out of time. So we can't guarantee that we'll get to read everything, but just tag me with At Modern Day Debate if you'd like to enter a question. The UberChat is also an option in which case it'll push your question to the top of the list and we appreciate that support. Really does mean a lot, folks. We are excited about the future as we have a lot of epic stuff planned. Once this pandemic starts to loosen up, we really do have a lot of plans for traveling debates. So kind of like going on tour, you could say, down to, you know, maybe even the Texas Oklahoma area you never know. So anyway, I want to say thanks so much to our guests. They are linked in the description. I'm a little bit behind. I've got a double check to be sure that it's in there. If it's not, I'm going to be putting their links in right now so that if you would like to hear more from either Jim or Praise, you can hear more by clicking on those links during the debate. And with that, thanks so much, though, guys, for being with us. Glad to have you back. Likewise. This is going to be a good discussion, Jim. Looking forward to it. Yeah. I'm happy to be here. Absolutely. The pleasure is all you all are. So thanks so much. Anyway, I mean, I mean, I'm happy to be here. Thank you so much. And yeah, we really appreciate you going the extra mile for this debate in that epic costume. I mean, it's the least that I could do, you know, being the heathen that I am. I had to, you know, just give it a little effort.  All right. So with that, we're very excited to give it over to Praise to make his opening statement. So with that praise, the floor is all yours. I'm getting ready to get this rocking here. So how do I share the screen thingy, James? There's a green button, bottom middle of the zoom window. Okay. And once you click that. Boom. All right. So here it is demons in the contents of this presentation is evidence for demonology and PSI evidence for demons and angels and documented miracles. So to get started, we're going to start with PSI. What is PSI? So PSI is parapsychology in the peer reviewed paper we reference below what's I'm going to blow up for everyone provides extensive evidence for PSI and known as parapsychology. What does PSI consist of the definition straight from Webster dictionary is as follows a field of study concerned with investigation of evidence from the paranormal telepathy clairvoyance psychokinesis the paranormal by definition means supernatural or beyond science. However, what's incredible is the amount of evidence for PSI is paralleled with the field of general psychology, which means there's thousands upon thousands of papers as outlined below in this paper is the experimental evidence for parapsychological phenomenon review. I'm going to show this nice and big for everyone. Here is the paper right here in this journal is a peer reviewed journal. This is a this is a valid genuine arena of when it comes to the academia. So this is a valid, I would say, classification. So I want to just want to highlight this the evidence for PSI is comparable to that for established phenomenon, psychology and other disciplines. So I'm going to go to now a quick video clip from Edsel Cardenia. He is the Thurston chair in psychology, one university in Sweden where he directs the center of research for consciousness and anomalous psychology. So I'm going to display a few minutes here and then we're going. We're talking about the number of experiments overall that were incorporated into your study well over a thousand, as I recall, and yes. And also, do you hear that over a thousand experiments confirming PSI? So PSI has apparitions that has psychokinesis, telekinesis. And this is actually validated through several experiments. And what are these experiments? We have psychokinesis on random number generators, psychokinesis on living systems, ESP in the Gansfield, remote viewing, presentment studies. So what is psychokinesis in the Greek? I mean, soul and movement, telekinesis from far off and movement. So this has been established for so long and it has extensive, again, extensive citation and documentation, experimentation for this. So this was posted in the Washington Post. As a psychiatrist, I diagnosed mental illness also helps spot demonic possession. So I'm not going to read the whole article, but what's interesting is this psychologist, he knows he can determine the difference between someone is mentally ill and someone that is demonically possessed. And he goes into languages. That's several people have that he's diagnosed and he's helped. And he's actually he's actually when his people speak like 20 different languages at once. And I think that goes beyond the human scope. And this just doesn't happen on the whim. There's no naturalistic explanation. So that is the paranormal. And it's again, the definition of paranormal means supernatural. So, yeah, here are just people to check the sound. I'm not going to go through the whole thing again, because I never limited time and I don't want to waste everyone's time. But there it is and make sure to move this over. Here we go. And now here is another journal, demonic possession in parapsychology. So I'm just showing you the literature that's out there. Surveys selected possession cases and list few features commonly present. These include such parapsychological phenomenon as levitation and the ability to use to use unlearned languages, the vicious and violent, violent psychokinetic and ESP manifestations make it doubtful that the phenomenon is a conventional poltergeist or any other general manifestation of psychic ability or due suggestion. Although these possible explanations are related to possession. So I'm going to go back to this. This is this was presented on Ted talk. Parapsychology. Fierce poltergeist. Whoops, I'm going to get in nice and big for when to look at.  So he has background. He's one of the most well-known people. I'll get his name after this. I'll let him play the clip here and I want to see. Very fierce poltergeist and the lady solved it. Well, I instructed her at the telephone and she wrote me an email and described how she got rid of the poltergeist simply by knowing what I just told you. So can we get. I think that I can make the fortunate report that the poltergeist has vanished. My first assumption after the telephone conversation was that the house does not like me and I do not like the house. But since the phenomenon did not disappear, I thought that this cannot be the problem. And besides, this would have been a known problem. When I looked. When I looked. Oops. Very good. Fierce. Very good. Fierce poltergeist. Oh, well, but this guy is Raymond Walter von the Kudu. Fierce poltergeist and the lady solved it.  So, I mean, there's just so much evidence that we can go to experimentation. So this isn't like some type of who science or some type of thing that people make up like conspiracy theories like flat earth. There's not even comparable. And I want to go into near death experiences evidence for their reality. So this again is another peer review journal. It's a NBC I in near death experiences report about 17% of those people that nearly died. But see, here's what I like about this, this paper here, this journal is he goes into the line of evidence is where it eliminates naturalistic phenomenon being the case. So number one, the read the number one evident line of evidence is lucid organized experiences while unconscious comet cometos clinically dead near death experiences occur at a time when a person is so physically compromised, they are typically unconscious. Cometos are clinically dead, considering NDE's from a both medical perspective and logically, it should be not possible for the unconscious people to often report highly lucid experiences. And there's another, there's one paper people can look at. It was by Jeffrey long, but here's the major one that I really wanted to focus on is Bruce Grayson. He's been in this field for over 25 years and has thousands of accounts. And he, he has a thorough debunking of every possible explanation, natural explanation, birth memories, ultra blood gases, toxic for metaphoelucination. So that's a, that's a typical explanation. That's what skeptics like to say they're hallucinations, but he goes through and completely obliterates that idea, neurochemistry. So he goes through that, he goes through neuroanatomy positive. So we can go to all this stuff, but here's the thing though, that if you, most of these cases of, of these internet experiences, they have people that have unaccountable information that from the past of past relatives and information that cannot be attained through natural means. So, and then there's blind people that were born, that were born blind at death. I mean, I'm sorry, born blind at birth. So, and then they, they, they explained the, the color of snow. They, they, they, uh, described trains outside. They're explaining people and what they look like. And these are blind people. So these, you can't just write it off and hand wave it off and say, oh, we, let's just, let's just add a nature of the gaps. And no, there's, there's a point where it does become parapsychology there or paranormal, which means beyond science or supernatural. But here's the thing that clout, here's another thing I'd like to show that just even in general positive psychology, there's a six things that are virtues. And one of them is transcendence. And I want to show the definition of transcendence here. So here's some of the APA dictionary of psychology, transcendence. Transcendence is a metaphysics in the study of consciousness, a state of existence, a perception that is not definable in terms of normal understanding or experience. The term may imply a state that goes beyond conventional conceptions of the natural world. I mean, this is just in general psychology. So, um, I think, I think that's pretty much all I had to show is we have near death experiences that show angels after life. We also have demonology and parapsychology. We have, it's just an abundance and abundance of citations in journals. So with that, I end my time and I can see to Jim. Thanks so much. Praise. We will kick it over to Jim majors. So what I'm going to do is just put in, there you go. Thanks so much. Praise. You already got it before I could. So we're going to kick it over to Jim majors. Thanks so much, Jim, for being here. The floor is all yours. All right, give him a horn straight, man. All right. Uh, thanks, praise for that. Uh, appreciate your, uh, your opening. And again, thanks for this, uh, this debate. Let's see. Okay. So when it comes to demons first, we need to establish what we're talking about. I think we all know what praise is talking about. He's talking about your typical Emily Rose, uh, demonic or spirit possession, uh, foaming at the mouth, convulsing, uh, um, uh, a clear ed aversion to, uh, to religious, uh, religious, uh, artifacts, religious trinkets. Um, so I mean, as far as demons go, do demons exist in short? No, uh, the long parts, a little bit more complicated. So demons exist in the same way that angels exist or, uh, Satan exists or, um, the, the fallen angels or the, the Nephilim, uh, exist. And that is, they exist in concept alone. And those concepts are ambiguous and they change over time. Um, for instance, uh, demon or in the Greek, um, uh, uh, diamone, diamones, diamoneon, um, did not always have a negative connotation. Did not always have a dualistic connotation. In fact, the earliest, uh, concepts of a demon were, um, not good, not bad, could be either, or could be a little bit of one and a little bit of the other, but very rarely did you see any demon that was just pure evil or a, an agent of evil. Um, in, in fact, in the, uh, in the Old Testament, by and large, God is the source of all things. He's the source of, uh, of evil. Uh, you can see that in, uh, uh, in Isaiah 45. Um, but in the New Testament, um, demons are the source of evil. They are co-conspirators with the evil archetype, uh, Satan. Uh, they are the, the source of disease. Uh, now that's, that's always been, been the case. Demons have always been identified as these things, but not just these things, not just negative things. They were also, um, uh, they were also credited with things like lightning, um, uh, earthquakes, um, people like Plato and Socrates, um, uh, thought of, of demons like that. Uh, in fact, it wasn't up until somewhere in, in second to bull Judaism, somewhere between the fifth century BCE and the first century CE, when we see this rise in Jewish Greek literature, uh, especially, um, especially apocrypha, especially these, these extra canonical books, these books that were, were, that we're seeing as later as, as no goes. Um, this is when we first start to see this dualistic interpretation of the Greek terms, Daimon and Daimonion. Um, but not exclusively dualistic. In fact, it wasn't until the church fathers got ahold of it and got ahold of some, uh, some extra biblical literature, um, most likely some, uh, Inokian literature probably had some, uh, Zoroastrian, um, uh, influence and Persian, uh, um, religion influence as far as like the dualistic nature there. Um, so it's not until like the second or third century that when the church fathers start associating the fallen angels, their spawn, the, uh, their, uh, their, their souls or the, so to speak that, that, uh, roamed the earth after they were, after they were were killed. The, there were several different interpretations. It demons have evolved a lot up until now. In fact, there's no word for demon in the Hebrew. Um, there are several words, five or six. I believe there's six words that are translated from the Hebrew into diamonies or diamonion, um, in, uh, in the Septuagint. Um, and the closest one, I guess the one that, that's that the modernly we associate with a demon would probably be the Shaddim. Um, or the, the, like the, the shades, but they were, um, to, I guess best we explain it would be like lesser, lesser gods or yeah. And this is about the same time that we see the rise of, uh, Satan as an actual entity, as an actual one angel instead of just a general, uh, rebellious adversary. Um, and we see Satan getting cast out of heaven with the angels that followed him and in the Christian mind, those are the demons, um, usually in, in most interpretations. Um, so what is the evidence for these demons? Now we've kind of established what they are. We know that there are these evil, uh, little agents of bad agents of Satan that are, uh, that can possess us. They can take over our, our body. They don't have any form themselves, even though they're often, uh, they're often, you know, characterized, uh, they're often personified and, uh, anthropomorphized as, you know, having horns, wings. I left, left my wings in the closet. Um, actually don't have wings, uh, but that'd be cool if I did. So it's the, it's usually identified in, like praise said, uh, in demonic possession or in cases of exorcism. Um, but there's a huge problem with, with exorcism, a huge problem. Um, it's actually funny that praise mentioned, uh, Richard, Richard Gallagher. Uh, he's a, a psychiatrist. Um, he's, but, and he's also called the world's leading expert on demonic possession. He wrote a book called, uh, demonic foes. It's all about exorcisms in his 25 years as a, as an exorcist. Um, but there's no evidence for these incredible events for all these things that he's, he's seeing. There is no evidence. There's no video, uh, then these are fairly modern, you know, um, uh, events, but Gallagher has an answer for that. He says that the demons won't submit to lab studies or allow themselves to be easily recorded by video equipment. Uh, he says that they want to sow doubt and not confirm their existence and the church will not compromise the privacy of a person suffering from possession just to provide film to skeptics in quote. So that, I mean, that's, that's really con, really convenient. Um, so is demonic possession demonstrable? Well, according to Gallagher, the world's leading expert on, uh, on demonic possession, no, because the demons are clever and tricky. Um, many psychologists in his field have spoken out against him.  And some of the, the psychologists in his field even go as far to say that he, uh, his grasp of science is troubling. Uh, in fact, there's been many reports, uh, out against him. One was done by three clinical psychologists, one or professor. Uh, and they say that, uh, talking about one particular, uh, exorcism, they say that, uh, they, they, they quote them. They say, quote, she could tell some people their secret weaknesses such as undue pride, she knew how individuals she'd never known had died, including my mother and her fatal case of ovarian cancer. Six people later vouched to me that during her exorcisms, they heard her speaking multiple languages, including Latin, completely unfamiliar to her outside her trances. Okay. So apparently she could only speak these languages inside of her trances and he only knows this because six people later told him that. Uh, and because she could tell some people their secret weaknesses, like undue pride, whatever kind of weakness that is. Um, and she knew how his mother died. First of all, you can find out how somebody's mother died online. Uh, it's called hot reading. Um, they, uh, could have gotten, um, uh, could use cold reading for, for some of those things as well. Um, he also assumes that one that these, uh, these anecdotes of supposed eyewitnesses, uh, who already have a belief in demonic possession are reporting it accurately. He's not seeing this for himself. He's not, he has no, no verifiable evidence, the same amount of evidence that you and I have. And he's just saying, yeah, okay. Yeah, I'm going to write that down. That sounds good. Uh, he also assumes that the patient could already speak these languages while, uh, while in a trance. Um, but he fails to entertain the possibility that she already knew these languages that she was speaking, um, talks about the displays, the extraordinary strength, which is not something unheard of, uh, for people who are, uh, in extreme situations, uh, and under the influence of, of adrenaline. Um, the, the levitation would be something awesome. That would be something really, really great to know, but Gallagher himself says, quote, I have not witnessed a levitation myself, but half a dozen people I work with, the vow that they've seen it in the course of their exorcisms. He is the world's leading expert on demonic possession. And he is not seen in all his 25 years of depossessing, repossessing bodies, depossessing demons, exercising demons has never seen a levitation, but six people that he's worked with, who I assume aren't the leading expert in demonic possession have seen it. Um, in many cases of this exorcism, uh, supposed demonic possession, it's, uh, it's, it can be faked. It can be something, uh, learned and mimicked, um, in order to fulfill a certain agenda, um, whatever that may be. Um, Robert Baker in 1992, uh, and his, uh, in his book, Kid and Memories, he, uh, talks about how there were nuns who used to act possessed. Oh, I'm a unicorn. Shit. There were nuns who used to act possessed.  So they could just blame it on the demonic possession. They could get the rocks off and then, you know, they could, uh, get exercise and then get to go because, you know, people can be possessed over and over again, or it might take somebody's 62 times to, uh, be, uh, be exercised. How much time do I have left? Okay. If we're about to the end and, uh, uh, can get one more minute. Sure. Okay. And just one more point that I want to touch on is parapsychology. Yes. There are many, many studies in parapsychology, but there's no way to determine a causal mechanism for any of these, these things for ESP, for telekinesis, any of that. Um, and, and the, the causal mechanisms that are, that are posited are wildly speculated and the speculation is demonstrable in the sheer lack of agreement amongst the people, uh, who are positing these, these, uh, potential causes. Uh, there are so many problems. Uh, the law, second law of thermo, of thermodynamics, uh, that there's so many issues with parapsychology and it hasn't moved. It hasn't advanced at all in its understanding of quote, unquote parapsychology or the, or the side since the late 1800s has not moved at all. Uh, and with that, I, uh, surrendered the few seconds that I have. Thanks. You got it. Thanks so much. Appreciate it. Oh yeah. Um, demons don't exist. Yeah. Thanks so much. And we will kick it into open conversation mode. Praise. Are you convinced? Are you ready to just lay it down and move on? Oh yeah. Give it to me, man. Um, so there's a couple of things that I think you misrepresented and that's parapsychology at the end.  It's, it's not, it's not only a, it's ongoing thing. It's exploding right now. So that's, I think that's a mischaracterization of the field of PSI. I'm going to share that real quick. What was like, what was the, the latest discovery or the latest breakthrough that they've had? Uh, with psychokinesis and I'm here, I'm going to actually show that as well, like the experiments. We have psychokinesis on random number generators. And we can go into that. We can go to each thing here. Um, but through popular books for trails. Hold on. That's not that I'm trying to get to my internet. Oh well, but I, it's not good. It's not connecting right now, but we have five classifications of experimental evidence. And so you can't, we just can't decide. Oh, yeah, there's no evidence. But yet we have thousands upon thousands as I showed in the beginning of my presentation from ETSL that it's, it's, uh, over an abundance amount of experimentation for PSI. And another thing I wanted to address you with is, you said there's no mechanism for the paranormal. Well, that's, that's, well, that's what you would expect if there is a supernatural dimension. It's not, that's assuming that there are, it is mechanistic or God is a mechanistic God or the supernatural realm is mechanistic. So no, I think that is, um, an argument from ignorance. Well, it doesn't have to be mechanistic. It just has to be causal. There just has to be some sort of causal link that you can establish other than speculation. Well, see is, but you, but it's, I mean, that's close to being back in the question though, because are you assuming that there's a material causation? Are you looking and what would a supernatural material one? It just has to be a demonstrable, uh, one that can be repeated. That's what experimental evidence is for is so that it can be repeated. Okay. Um, but here's another thing too, the growing evidence for demonic possession. This is in Springer. Would you say Springer is a, uh, trustable syndication or you think that's a bias source or, um, no, I've, I've actually, actually read the, the one that you're talking about. So, um, there is evidence in, in this arena of, uh, demonology. And so what did, what did you get out of Betty Stafford's, um, slightly, or her favorite? So I'll, I'll, I'll answer that, but, but I don't, I kind of, I think I might give away something. So can you, if I ask you a real quick question? Okay. Easy, easy answer for this one. Um, how are demons exercised? Yeah, through the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Is that the only way? Yes. Okay. Um, did you know that in this study, it talks about the, a, a Chinese Taoist abbot, um, who walked up to the person who was, uh, who was possessed, holding an ivory tab, a tabulate, which is essentially like an amulet. It's been around since like Mesopotamian times, uh, which to the, the Taoist was a symbol of, uh, wisdom and authority. Uh, it's called a, a, a, a who or a hue. Uh, I think it's just who, um, and prayed in the name of Shangdi, their, uh, their, their deity. And he was cured. It also speaks about a, a, an Indian Baba, uh, or a, a Baba is like a, like a, a Hindu, uh, a Hindu holy man. Um, he was holding an arty, which is essentially like a little metal tray with, uh, uh, this is called like a tray of lights, but it's like, it has like a, it's like a votive candle or candle on it and some other elemental representations, fire, water, earth, uh, whatever. Um, and in, in Hinduism, the demons fear the name of the Lord Hanuman, uh, Hanuman's the, the son of the, the wind, God value. Uh, and guess what? They were cured. Uh, so it seems like you travel from culture to culture. And it depends on the person's belief. And oftentimes when the person is exercised, uh, it's, it's not a cure. And one has to, well, at one, at that point, one, one woman has to wonder, okay, well, well, what is it? Um, is it, uh, is it, like, do I need to resort to, uh, to conventional medicine and, uh, psychiatry first? Well, of course that's, that's, that's a given, but sometimes medication doesn't work. And, uh, for like, for, for schizophrenia patients, uh, the medicine works for them. I believe only 20 or 30% of, uh, of people who have, uh, schizophrenia, um, there are some people for whom, we, we cannot help or we cannot cure with medicine. We cannot get it down to a maintainable level. But the fact of the matter is, is that exorcism has been shown to do nothing. But with all of these supposed claims of demon possession, one, there is still so, there's zero evidence. There's some hoax videos on online. There are some, I just want to respond to East Clean because I don't want to lie. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah. So number one, I think the, the Chinese Abbott and the, uh, yeah, uh, Hindu Baba. Yeah. I think Jesus made it clear Satan cannot cast, or Satan doesn't cast out Satan. And you're talking about healings. I wouldn't call that a, uh, demonic exorcism. Exorcism is getting rid of, uh, or, um, expulsion of a demon from a person. And if you look at the Bible, they had demons. No, what I'm saying though, but we, can you say healed? Does that mean like a physical healing or what does that mean? Well, spiritual healing, that's essentially what an exorcism is. Is it not? Um, well, I mean, so when Jesus exercised demons, he was said to have healed them. Yeah, but I would say that the word there heal is a buzzword. I think we, we have to unpack that a little bit. So yeah, I mean, it's an ambiguous term, but, but it is accurate. Um, they, they had an affliction, which was the demonic possession and it was cured. Okay. So I think the biblical perspective of an exorcism is a little bit different because Jesus says that they, when, when, when, when a spirit is, uh, exercised that seven others are seven times those are looking forward to come back into that without the gospel preaching to them. Right. Without being replaced by God. Right. So you have to fill them with some type of spiritual, uh, gospel or some type of, right, um, principle, you know, some type of teaching or something. So, and, and, and that belief is common in Islam, in, in Buddhism, in, uh, in Hinduism, uh, in Judaism, uh, where, where, yeah, where the demons do have an opportunity to, to come back. That's why I can, in, uh, Jewish mythology, uh, in like, uh, in the second temple, uh, Greek Jewish literature, um, you have, uh, like this idea of banishing a demon to, uh, to Tartarus, uh, like down to the, the underworld, uh, where, where they, where they come from. But if you leave yourself open to it, it's not always seven, you know, but it is, uh, the, the theme of a demon being able to re-enter you is very common. And that's, that's, uh, I think that's just a, a, a practical, um, uh, piece of theology to explain why people aren't healed by these, uh, by these demons. I mean, like, you got to admit, like the best potential cases of demonic possession that we know of, um, with the most, uh, what you could say, uh, quote, unquote, evidence for, they, it takes months, sometimes years, uh, people die from it, um, uh, Annalise, uh, Annalise Michelle, uh, little German girl, uh, she, she died weighing 68 pounds at 20 something years old and with her knees broken because she was, uh, being forced to kneel so many times for the exorcism. I think she was exercised some 60 something times.  That what that you said, a girl, uh, Lisa, I believe her name was, uh, Annalise, uh, Annalise Michelle. Yeah. Let me make sure I got that right. Want to let you know, folks, while Jim is looking that up, we, if you have not heard, if you have been living in a cave on Mars with your fingers in your ears, we, at modern day debate, have invaded the podcast world. So we're very excited about that. You can find us on all of your favorite podcasts, including Google podcasts and the iTunes store. So very excited about that. Check us out and rate us. That helps a lot. So we'll kick it back over to James Majors. Uh, Jim, yeah, our name was, was, uh, um, Anna Elizabeth, but she went by Annalise, uh, Michelle. She was a German girl. She died in 1976 at the age of 23. Uh, the cause of death was determined to be malnutrition. Um, because after the 67, uh, um, uh, exorcisms, um, at some point she had stopped eating. Um, she was malnourished, dehydrated. Uh, she only, uh, she weighed much less than she should have. Like I said, she had, she had broken knees from, from, uh, from genie flexing, uh, for the, the exorcism rights. Uh, and her parents were actually, uh, uh, found guilty of negligent homicide. Um, which is right. Yeah, I would agree with that. And I think that's the issue. Like you have to have spiritual discernment. I mean, Richard Gallagher, you're bringing up him. I think he does have very, I think, um, valid spiritual discernment. So it's, and this is where we have to know the difference between, um, something someone, someone who is possessed and someone who's not someone that is going sick and then Bible makes it clear there is a distinction there between someone who is sick and possessed. So, um, you have to, I think this is also the Bible makes it clear that only a few people have this spiritual discernment or ability. Like it has to be a gift. And even the apostles messed up a couple of times with their, uh, when they're trying to exercise demons. So it's, it should be much more treaded cautiously. And unfortunately people don't do that. And, um, so I would say that account really is just an account of negligence on religious people. And let's say that doesn't mean that they don't exist, though. It just means that there's negligent people out there. Sure. But these negligent people, um, are what account for so much, uh, um, so much child abuse being connected with this, um, the Department of Education in the United Kingdom saw an 11% rise, um, in between 2017 and 2018, uh, there were some 1800, um, abuse cases that were linked to demonic possession just in England. Um, and it was like 14, uh, 1400 or 1500 in 2016. Um, so it's, it's, it's on the rise and it's because, you know, they, there is no discernment. First of all, that, I mean, sure, if you want to say that there needs to be spiritual discernment, that's fine, but there needs to be first a rational, uh, natural discernment, first a scientific discernment. Um, dissociative, uh, identity disorder, uh, epilepsy, um, uh, schizophrenia, um, I mean, the Tourette syndrome. There, there are so many explanations for these things and it's demonstrable by the, by the incredibly small number that the, the church actually exercises in comparison to the request to be exercised. Uh, it's, it's so much, it's so astronomically small. In fact, it's, it's so embarrassing. I, I'd wager it's embarrassing to them is the reason that they don't even, uh, even list it. They don't, they don't publicize any of their, uh, their exorcisms until years and years later, and then still with very spurious evidence. So let me, let me read a couple of points up to you. So I agree with Richard Gallagher that these demons are not going to try to advance the kingdom of having the kingdom of light and they are going to try to do season of doubt. Why would they manifest themselves to in front of the world for everyone to see? Do you know what that would cause? It would cause people to leave their doubt and, and, uh, stay in skepticism and into atheism. And why would they expose themselves to a priest that can exercise them? Because that's their, that's their realm where they can operate, where they can, um, at least, uh, not be scrutinized and it's into a, um, a way to be exposed into it's because they're compelled to write through holy water or, uh, Latin chants or whatever that's just religious shenanigans to me. The Bible is, is much, it's drastically different. There's nothing about holy water. It's always about faith and it's, and it's a high level of faith too. Where do demons always present themselves? No, they won't and they will not do that. And so why don't, so why do they present themselves to somebody who can, um, exercise them? Because I think there's a dynamic there with, with Jesus Christ. I think that is the, um, I would say that's the underpinning of why there is exorcism because of Jesus Christ. They recognize his authority just like the book of Acts and they said, we know Paul.  He, he wanted to be, I think, uh, buried in the ground. He thinks he thought he was going to resurrect or something and like some idiotic, uh, belief. And that's the problem.  And that's what it's like. What, like, like, I mean, like what advances have been made in Paris psychology? Um, we have quantum mechanics. I think the observer effect. We have the quantum mechanics absolutely fails, uh, uh, Paris psychology. Once you, it just shows a, a misunderstanding of, of, uh, of quantum mechanics. Um, they, they proposed this, uh, this, this, uh, this universe model, uh, or that this, uh, the, the block model, um, that's, uh, um, that where, where time is simultaneous where all time at one time is, is existing at one time past, present, future, it's all one big, one big, big mashup. Uh, it, it just shows a, a, a complete misunderstanding of a, of, uh, the second law of thermodynamics, of, uh, of the law relativity, of causality, uh, of, uh, of, um, inverse square law. It's, um, yeah, I would see the thermodynamics to actually support our point because, uh, where it shows that there was a definite beginning time. It shows that there is, you know, beginning, and then there has to begin or that began this reality. And I would see also quantum mechanics. I mean, I can show you like 25 different things in there that show that reality is not real. It's, it's, it's a fabrication. It's a simulation. If you want to call it a simulation. So thermodynamics. But you understand that the energy cannot be created or destroyed. So in something like, like precognition in this block model universe that they propose, um, they, that violates the thermodynamic principle because the future cannot affect the past without there being some energy created or destroyed. Oh, that's assuming there is a future. And I would say that time is relative. And now, and now, that could just be present. This is another present time moment. See, we're going to argue over what time is. In the block model, it's all on the same thing, but that doesn't change the fact that we have our perception of that and whatever precognition that we're using, whatever, um, uh, whatever parapsychological, uh, um, attribute where we're, we're employing telepathy, what, whatever it, it requires acting with, within our framework. Right? Well, no, that's assuming that is material, though. What if we are the mental, what if we're in an idealistic type of reality? Like what? Um, so idealism is meant, it's fundamentally mental, we live in, we live in a mental reality or dimension, if you want to call it that. Okay, but I don't, I don't see how that, that gets you away from, or gets you to be, uh, to be allowed to violate the law of thermodynamics. Well, it's, it's mental causation. Well, mental, so I would say thermodynamics is, uh, fluid. It could change with the mind. So the mind is the most fundamental force in reality, and I can show you so many different citations. Parapsychology confirms this. In our perception of reality. Yeah. Yeah, our perception of reality. Right. That's just neuroscience. So that's not parapsychology. No, uh, no, it goes into quantum mechanics too, because, and when we go down to subatomic particles, that they don't exist without mental observation. Right. And so if that is fundamental, then the mind is, um, reality. Okay, but what about causality? So causality would just be something that would be pertinent to us, not necessarily the supernatural realm. So in this, No, it would be pertinent, effects need, need to have causes necessarily, right? Um, well, with God, no. And with the universe? Well, with the universe, um, are you saying that the universe is not contingent? I would say it's emergent. I wouldn't say that it was, I wouldn't say that there was a ex nihilo event or something like that. I'm not talking about ex nihilo. I'm just simply talking about a causal chain, a causal event. Mm hmm. So, uh, yeah, we can go the principle of sufficient reason. I think that would secure that, uh, belief or hypothesis. Yeah. Okay. So there should be some sort of causal link for what we observe in a demonic possession, right? Um, not necessarily, maybe just with the background. I would say that things with the background, the universe and things, things that are material, we perceive as physical material are just a fabrication. They don't really exist. I think you're gonna bring up on me a little bit my connection to yours. I think it's my connection.  Is it me, James? Or is it Jim? I think it's more Jim's, uh, connection. I hear praise pretty clearly, but you've been going on those websites. I told you not to go on Jim. It's a little bit hard to hear you. So, let's see. Well, I don't remind you folks. We, yeah, it looks like we might, he might, no, it's having a good convo, man. I was, I was getting right into a good one. Wait, he might just be standing still. Jim? Oh, I think he's frozen. Okay. So I want to let you know, folks, I'm sure he'll be back in just a second. I hope. Hey, a lot of, sometimes I think he's got storms where he is. Uh, whether or not that's true tonight, I don't know. It is Halloween. Spooky, hopefully he's okay, but want to let you know we're confident he'll be right back and also want to let you know, folks, as always. Oh, I think, yeah, I think we're getting back. Yeah. Can you hear us, Jim? Yeah, can you hear me? Yes. Yeah, well, you're cracking up a little bit, but yeah, so we were talking about the second law of thermodynamics, wanting to get back into that. So I guess my point is that it's still mental causation, so we can have a series or a chain of mental observers, and I think that fits fine with what you were bringing up. Yeah, can Jim hear me? Jim, can you hear us? Very spooky. Yeah, I'm drinking on my phone. Okay, and we are going to want to give you a reminder, folks, we're going to go to Q&A in maybe about five minutes here, so do want to let you know if you have a question fired into the live chat at this point. We've got a good amount of questions, so there's no guarantee that we'll get through all of them. So heads up, sorry about that, if we don't get to read your question, but yeah, we will go into the Q&A about five minutes, and Jim, can you hear us now? Is Jim in the house? Want to let you know, folks, though, you'll see at the bottom right of your screen, we are very excited as this Friday.  We know how much you love Flat Earth debates, folks. I just, I don't know, you guys, a lot of you seem to love them, but we are excited as this one will for sure be an epic one. As any time you have Nathan Thompson and Aaron together, it's going to be nuts, believe me. So we're very excited. That should be a lot of fun. Nathan Thompson is in the chat right now, folks.  If you want to do us a favor, I totally cool if you want to basically, if you want to attack people's arguments, feel free. We encourage you, no problemo. We do want to ask that you'd be your regular, friendly selves, though. And so we do want to ask you, not harass people, even if it's Nathan Thompson. Yo, what's up, Nathan? What's going on, buddy? That's right. Praise has debated Nathan in the past. That was an exciting one. I got wrecked. And we, yes, we are very excited about that. Also, though, folks, you've not seen this. I think in terms of debates, that we've had, you know, we usually put out the event. I mean, sometimes it's a couple hours before, like tonight. But we oftentimes, we try to put out the event. If it's going to be a big event, we try to put the page up early. And I don't know if we have ever gotten as many likes on an event before it started as the one that is currently on the bottom right of your screen saying Marxist versus capitalist. Namely, this is going to be Dr. Wolf, who you see on the left taking on Dr. Friedman. This is honestly going to be so you, if you don't know who these gentlemen are, Dr. Wolf has been on, I think like Fox News, CNN. So big time economists that's been interviewed. I mean, at really high levels. And David Friedman, brilliant, absolutely brilliant as well. And so as a side note, too, by the way, David Friedman, the son of Milton Friedman. So the famous libertarian economist. So that is going to be honestly, unbelievable. That's this Thursday. So we have this week is honestly going to be, as I think Tioga says, off the hook. It is going to be so great, you guys. I am dead serious. I'm so excited for it. And so seriously, it is really cool. Want to let you know about that. And we hope you make it. And so that should be a lot of fun. So let's see. That'll be Thursday. If I remember right, it's in the afternoon. So it's not actually during the middle of the basically, it's not during the evening as we usually do. So if you're from Europe and some other parts of the world, you will still be hopefully plausibly awake at that time. And so that should be something folks. We were honestly so excited. And so Polska bear. Thanks so much for your kind words. Appreciate that. Nathan Thompson says hashtag flat gang. I'm a little bit worried, Jim. Where are you? We might go to the questions for a bit, just because I would guess a number of them are going to be for praise. And those we can wait until Jim gets back. Oh, let me just check really quick. There he is. So we are thrilled to have you back, Jim. Thanks so much, buddy. To Jim's. Oh, no. Let's see. What we will do is thanks so much. I'll let you guys continue. It's all good. Can you guys hear me now? Yeah. Actually, you're fairly clear. Okay. Okay. So just to go back to my my opening statement, just so we can establish something like, I don't want to go into this like with like, as like a black swan fallacy. Say, well, because I've never seen demons that means that they don't exist or whatever. I'm willing to grant that. Yeah, sure. There's there's possible. There's these parapsychological phenomenon that just happened to be similar to actual psychiatric psychological disorders. But but the when you combine the fact that this this dualistic notion of demons and the misuse of them and the lack of them in the Old Testament and the development of them in the New Testament. From like Inokian literature and this second temple Hellenized Jewish literature. I mean, it leads me more and the fact that within Hinduism, and I'm a unicorn again, that within Hinduism and within Judaism and within Taoism, you know, you have these all of these different ceremonies is different. Different exorcism rituals that are done and they all lead to the same conclusion about the same success rate. In fact, the in in in Hinduism, it the the exorcism rate for their rituals, they say is almost 100 percent. That's completely unverifiable. But the fact matter is, is that people believe, you know, whether or not it is the case, they believe that it causes the healing. It causes a cessation of the the the symptoms, the maladies. I tend to believe it's mostly for attention or to promote some sort of personal agenda. And and more times than not an actual personality disorder or an actual mental illness. Many clinical psychologists, like I said, that they take issue with with with Gallagher in his his methodology, because he like he does use spiritual discernment. But the problem is that he uses it first. Even the the the Catholic Church doesn't do that.  It's been the same for, you know, 400 years but they've had to update it because they have acknowledged the the prevalence and the not and the the understanding that we have in our modern world. Like demons used to be responsible for things like tummy aches, swimmers ear for for rotten teeth, for stuttering for all different kinds of things that we understand now. So it's it's essentially a demons of the gap fallacy. The the demons used to be this big. They used to be explain everything that we couldn't explain anything that we didn't have an explanation for. It was a demon of some of some sort. A diamond or a a a lesser deity. It's not quite a god, but it's greater than man. It's somewhere in between. It's it's those those those ethereal beings that just float amongst us. And that's kind of along the same lines that people like, you know, like Plato and and and Socrates and even up all the way up until like origin and Tertullian, you know, thought of it.   So I mean, it's been interpreted so many different ways. So for you to assert that they're that demons are real, but that they are agents of Satan, who is also a second temple construction. It's not found in the Old Testament, not as a being anyways. Not until you you you use extra biblical literature, can you associate the serpent in Genesis or the the the Hashatan or whatever. So out of all the concepts of demons around the world, out of all of the the evidences quote unquote for exorcism and all these other cultures, we're still expected to believe that the Christian dualistic interpretation of a demon as evil agents of Satan, that can only be cast out in Jesus's name and Hindu gods names and Taoist gods names and you know, and it's et cetera, et cetera Islam. It it just gets harder and harder to believe. It's like saying I want you to believe in unicorns, but you have to believe in my unicorn. It's shaggy. It's got green eyes and it's got three horns we still call it a unicorn because the horns are really grouped together. So from far away, it looks like one horn, but not any of the others. So unicorns do exist, but just my interpretation. Can I have a just a quick conclusion there, James? Of course. Oh, sweet. So there's a couple of things I want to I want to conclusion tonight. I with I love I love talk with Jimmy's a great interlocutor, but with all due respect, James or Jim, he didn't respond to my peer review literature that I showed that.  I responded to to both of them. Well, I mean, no, I had I had the parapsychology meta analyses and that means that there's an abundance of analysis. And now Nicole, so I go ahead. But he didn't give me any examples. All you said was that there are over a thousand experiments that were that were done. Any specifics? Well, I did, though, as a as a a a pseudoscience. I gave you five of them and I outlined each one. I couldn't. I was trying to click on one, but my my link wasn't going there. But you can we can be wanting to look at that. Can you give me an example and refresh it? Or was it in the video? It's in the video, but I'll I'll pull it up. Give me one second here. OK, what do you what do you think is like the is the is the best one? So we don't have to go through all of them. Well, psychokinesis, I think that's a really good one. Yeah. OK, well, what and just for for the for the audience and and for me, just so I understand what you're what you're what you're trying to convey. What is what is that? So psychokinesis is the ability to transcend physical or what we would what you would call natural reality, which I would probably have a different definition of that or a different understanding of that. So it's by definition, it transcends. It's it's in what they call supernatural. And they've shown this on different different experiments. A hundred or at least a thousand. And so and I think what kind of experience you're talking like are we are they used like like repeated experiments? Or yeah. Yeah. I'm just going to pull it up because I actually exited that so I thought the debate. Hold on. Here we go. I'm pulling up right now. Or hopefully. So. But psychokinesis again, there's no way to establish any causal mechanism, right? Well, we could say mental causation. I think that fits well along with idealism and quantum mechanics. I would say yeah, I would say sure. Right. But in order to repeat the experiment, it would have to be something that is observable and well, it is an actual event that we can observe. Well, it is. There's plenty of experimental, repeatable evidence as we have. And I outlined them still trying to I think my Internet's going slow for some reason. Here we go. So PK. So psychokinesis on random number generators, psychokinesis on living systems, ESP in the GANS field, remote viewing, presentiment studies. So which one do you mean to go into? And I'll go. There's a whole. You said psychokinesis was the best that you believe. Yeah. Okay. That's like telekinesis, right? Same thing. Oh, it's in that same realm. Yeah. Okay. Are you good? Let's go with that. All right. This my thing's going to kind of slow right now. Apologize for that. But that's fine. But it was. But you know like the things like telekinesis like they're they're they're they're seen as pseudoscience largely in the relative field, right? Relevant fields. Right. And we have professionals that are we're in those other fields and they say those are mischaracterizations of of science that they. So we have people like our cardani or etsel cardania and he goes into extensive. He has a whole paper on this how they it is valid science that's repeatable. I could I put the paper up. It's called just one study like that that shows it being like repeated with a good control. Well, etsel cardania and the one I outlined it's a meta analysis and it has it's it's it's it's a whole load of stuff you can check out. And so that is valid. It's it's valid science. Yeah. What kind of control are we talking about though? Oh, that's a good question. I'm not sure. I haven't really studied that. So maybe that's something I would need to get into more deeper. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, is that I think that's something that's like paramount when we're talking about like studies of of any kind or when we're trying to to assess the the actuality of this this telekinetic ability. Because I mean there's like Chris Angel, you know, hovers people back in the in the old days to read fortunes have a crystal ball and they would make the table float. You know, the magic tricks exist. But we can determine that those are magic tricks because we can establish a causal link. We can see what causes this what causes that and it's because investigative studies are done into it to determine what the cause is, whether out of genuine curiosity or whether out of the desire to debunk them and expose them or what have you. But in order to say that it is truly telekinesis or psychokinesis, I mean, we have to establish that that is what's going on and not some magic trick or not some mentalism trick. Or we'd see somebody just, you know, going to Vegas and hitting hitting the the the roulette wheel and just staying there. Yeah. So do you see this?  Yes. So here's observation of psychonetic effect under highly controlled conditions by Helmut Schmidt. Yeah. This is a journal. So you can see the random here. Here's the you said with the control conditions. Well, here's even a visual a visual of it. And they go through. So it's formal lab.ch.  But here's the paper, though. Observation of a psychokinetic effect under highly controlled conditions. So anyone can look this up. It's also in the journal Parapsychology in 1993. So this has been out in a while. And this is legitimate science. I don't see how you could not deem this not legitimate science. I mean, I'm seeing stuff in the 70s and 80s. But I, of course, I can't can't read it scrolling. But what is the what is the the conclusion of the of the experiment? I'm willing to to grant that the methodology and everything is is is up to snuff. What's the what is the conclusion? So the conclusion is that we have experimental data for for psychokinesis or parapsychological phenomena. And has it been repeated? Yes, this is repeatable. We have again, thousands of experiments showing this. Do you have anything since the 80s? Yeah. And if you like for some reason that sites down, but it goes through the most recent ones, we have during the most presidency present to present mint studies. So this is on the parapsychological parapsychological association. People can check it out right now. I think it's down, though. So I was I mean, I was wanted to go there. But unfortunately, we couldn't. But I want to I just want to address one quick real something you've mentioned about people getting healed in with these demonic possessions. That's not that's not necessarily the case. Healings don't go with it. It's just superhuman powers. And we have documented evidences from so many police organizations at when it's a full moon out, when people are getting caught at doing criminal activity, especially when they are influenced with drugs. They have superhuman ability. And it goes beyond just adrenaline. And I highly recommend to check through your talk about drugs. I mean, it's not just adrenaline. I mean, you're introducing a chemical into your body, which can have adverse reactions. Yeah, but there's there's a point though when you have five or six cops on you for one man. And like PCP, like it's it's well known, especially in drug PCP.  They they're resisting. They're running away. Who knows what they're they're thinking that they're that's happening to them.  Who knows? All right. Yeah, well, I think that's and I think that to me is just maybe shifting the goalpost because if that was true, then the world's strongest men would be doing drugs to to get the highest weight and they don't do that. So that's not true.   No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't think that's why I think that's I think that's a gross distortion. No, there's actual recorded cases where they took six cops to with their with their brute strength to to to keep down someone that was on with some type of PCP, whatever it was, whatever drug and they're saying there's just no physical possibility of that. We're talking over 2000 pounds of strength like bench pressing that that that much of strength that just goes beyond limits of of physical morality. So right, because it that and that and to go along with like the the increased strength, I wouldn't call it superhuman strength because you're not talking about anybody. You don't have any stories about people flipping cars or like throwing buses or anything like that. It's always struggling against cops. But I mean, like I said, I mean it's it it's common with drug PCP. I mean, it's so common that whenever something like that happens, they can pinpoint it.  Well, no, they can have access to the demonic realm. And I'm saying that, yeah, drugs is a gateway to the demonic realm and there's just you got to have a little bit of spiritual. It's hard to talk to materialists because when you try. I mean, I've I've tripped balls. I've I've taken acid. I've taken shrimps. I've entered what I would consider the the spirit realm where I am no longer no longer in my shoes, so to speak. Was that was I possessed then? Could have. Yeah. And see, that's the that's the problem. And I don't even know people realize they are when they so I'm willing to bet that we could have. How do you go about establishing whether or not I was? That's really not established. Although I can only refer to the biblical literature and that means like cutting yourself and things like that. You mean depression? No, I wouldn't say depression. I'm saying it's it's like a mania. It goes beyond mania. The the biblical account refers to a if I remember an inconsolable man sitting down who is cutting himself with a stone, right? I don't know if that indicates some type of depression, though. I think that's sure it does. Of course it does. If if if not an indicator, it's certainly enough of an indicator that you would explore that is your first option or should. Yeah, I mean, it could it could have it could it could reference that. But I don't know if it actually is though. So instead of using spiritual discernment with my LSD experience, for example, I can just say well, whenever I came down off LSD, I was no longer in the spirit realm. Therefore, it probably wasn't demonic possession. Yeah, but I see I don't know. I was I can't really establish because I wasn't there or no professional was there. So it's it's hard to give some type of diagnosis on that. I don't know. I can promise you if I was tripping balls, I wouldn't be able to operate the computer. Yeah, but another thing is there's a difference between supernatural and superhuman too. I think that was maybe you were mischaracterizing that a little bit, but that's fine.  I mean, that's that goes beyond the normal range of human strength. It does go beyond the normal range, because normally we aren't we don't have our pain receptors blocked. We don't have this increase in serotonin and dopamine and and norepinephrine and and epinephrine and adrenaline coursing through our body. Those are not normal doses for our body. Those are abnormal, extra normal doses, of course. But you have to account that the other people that are trying to hold them down also had their own adrenaline. So it wasn't like they were just well, sure, but they're not on PCP. Yeah, but it's just I'm just saying, like to me, like you are trying to shift the goal post a little bit there, maybe, but because when you have six men holding down a fugitive or whatever and they still can't even do it. It's it's almost a futile task at that point. Then you have to start questioning things. I'm just saying, like I don't maybe we can put in the real question or police force. Stop weaponizing them and start making them work out. Yeah, maybe we'll go. I'll just leave it there. I'll leave it there. This might be a good opportunity to jump into the Q&A. Want to say thanks so much for your questions, folks. Thanks so much to our speakers. And we're going to grill them now with your questions. So we appreciate all of these. First up, appreciate your question when I'm done. This one comes from club as he likes to be called. Caleb, thanks for your question. He says congratulations on the win praise. Looks like you're trolling a good gym. All right. Next up. Oh, we got a lot of trolls, but God's servant. Thanks for your questions. Said good show is always moderated debate. The real question. Who cares about slime? Praise God instead. Thanks. Appreciate it. Glad you enjoyed tonight's show. I couldn't agree more. It's been an interesting one. Thank you for your question. Said Jim's giving a bad in all caps name to Psy, a.k.a. PSI research by Cardina, Broad, Storm, etc. Psy effects are established beyond doubt by experiments, but demons are not anomalous in format. Information acquisition is not demonic. Stop. What? No, it's not for you. Praise their well. Actually, no, it is kind of for you too. I honestly don't know. I'm just going to say past whatever it is. But so they're saying, hey, praise this if people have some sort of clairvoyance like if they're able to know something that's in natural methods, you could say they wouldn't be able to know. They're saying it doesn't mean it's demonic praise. What's your response? No, I never said that. And I was saying my argument is that if if the paranormal is demonstrable, then that would also validate that demonology that would that would justify it or everyone to call it. Yeah, you got it. And thanks for your question. This one comes from meow meow meow is back saying follow up on my super chat. I meant praise not Jim. That's embarrassing. OK, I didn't know that. So PS, I may ask to come on to debate. Cybelievers and doubters alike get so much wrong in terms of the literature and unjustified inferences. Gotcha. Thanks for that. Yeah, I I don't take any claim to knowing anything about parapsychology. I am a a one hour layman in that. Yeah, so Jim, if you do me a favorstone time, look up Dean Raiden with parapsychology. You might be surprised. You got I read him. I read Cardenia and I read. What is this other one? Um, that's that's a Cardenia already read that one. Gotcha. Alcock and child and BIM. Those ones I read. Gotcha. Thanks so much. And thanks for your question. By the way, thanks. Someone put a poll up on Twitter asking whether or not you believe in demons. I think that was you, Robert. I got it. It's hard for me to remember already, but I retweeted it. So that's a good idea, folks. If you ever want to have a poll about one of the topics of our debates, feel free to because sometimes it's just hard for me. I'm I'm rough. I'm kind of who kind of run and ragged with very little time. And so if you do make a poll, feel free to tag us just at us at modern day bait. And we will retweet that as we get a kick out of those. Germania. Thanks for your question said question for praise. Why did God make demons? If they're fallen angels, why did God make angels that he knew would rebel? Why give them free will if he could have made them with love and knowledge of his goodness? Well, they see. Yeah, that is. He did give him knowledge of his goodness. It's called the conscience. Romans 2 14 through 15. He wrote his he wrote his moral law and in our hearts. So yes, we have knowledge of his goodness. And yeah, free will is that I call the that would be your explanation for that. Yeah, I got you. Thanks. And by the way, is daylight savings tonight? Um, no, let's trick or treat. I think I can't remember. Um, let me know. Chat. Thanks for your question. Haven girl lemon. Appreciate it. That says I think this is a Gavin. This is Gavin Herlman's alter ego. So that's great question for Jim majors. If the devil can quote scripture, how can we know for sure? He didn't write it. Sir. What leads you to believe that the devil can quote scripture? Gotcha. I suspect that was a troll question. I think they're probably like the tempting of Jesus in the wilderness. Some guests are referring to. Well, yeah, I think that's probably what they're referring to. Although I think they're also not asking it sincerely. I think it's meant to be a Poe Poe question. They say question for praise according to the Bible. When did God create demons? And what plan for them do you think he had? So in the beginning, so I have a different perspective than the young earth creationists who have what they call the gap there is for you. And I do believe that we all pre existed. In a path or it was a past earth age or world age. If you want to call it that in if you read Proverbs a 30 and I think it's joke 38 seven that we all lived in harmony with God. We all love God. And then Satan was. He was elevated to a higher rank in front of the angel the kingdom there. So there was some type of rebellion and that that at that rebellion. Revelation 12 for that. They became demons at that point. So there's all of us are children of God. We call them the best way to explain is angels. But you can call them super human entity or super natural entities whatever. But yeah. Gotcha. And let's see. Albert Bitcoin is allegedly a bot according to Andrew Handelsman. I think Albert is. That does look a little bit like what a bot would say. Maybe.  So thanks for your question. This one comes in from you guessed it. Nathan Thompson. He says demons are real. They reside inside of globe zombies. Oh my goodness. Jim and praise. Are you guys going to take that? Last I checked you guys both believe that the the earth is a ball. Yeah. But the demon realm is flat. There you go. Gotcha. Well thanks for that. And this we do have other questions. Let me pull these up right here. Thanks so much for M. Empatocles. Let me know if I mispronounce that says for praise neuroscience and psychology can explain all the quote unquote evidence for demons and possession. Why do you still believe? I would see. Yeah. But it has nothing to do with materialism. I think that neuroscience has actually have a maybe have a debate in the making with Leo Phyllis on this. Is the mind immaterial or physical? I have so much good evidence that it is immaterial. So thank you for making my point. Yeah. It is evidence for the demonic. Gotcha. And meow meow meow. Thanks for your other question set Jim. Your skepticism of demons is clouding judgments on sigh research. Read Cardina 2018 for starters. Starters all at caps. They say I lack. Pronounce Cardania James. Thank you. Cardania. Cardania. News. Yeah. Cardania. Let's get a little over the end. Cardania. Cardania. They said I lack just Cardania. There you go. I don't see an I here. No, no there's not. It's it's a it's a Hispanically implied, implied A. Oh, I see you. Gotcha. I just want to Even if if we can establish that sigh does occur I can I can can see that right now In fact, I will can see that right now because I honestly don't frickin know I haven't done done enough research into it but drawing the line between sigh is Probable or possible or even does exist or is actual Drawing the line to demons exists There's not there's nothing that can connect that there. There's there's just empty open space with no justification Gotcha, and thanks so much appreciate your question from see Michael Dresden, I will humor you despite your typical trollish nature says for Jim you keep bringing up the potential for abuse But are the negative consequences of an idea evidence that it isn't true No, it is just evidence that That other possibilities need to be ruled out before quote-unquote spiritually discerning Whether it is or is not Demonic possession in fact even the the Catholics concede it they revised their rights of of exorcism in 1999 to Modernize their their rituals and and part of their exorcism is first establishing beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is not a mental affliction in fact the the priest is supposed to have in an accompaniment of Of a psychologist psych psychiatrist of People who actually know what they're looking at Gotcha can briefly just respond to Jim's I need to do it But just because I just because we do want to get through as many questions as possible I hope you forgive me for that. We do have another one. This one comes in from Samuel little Ha home. Let me know if I mispronounce it friend. They said you did modern-day debate Let's see is not your average court case method functional for determining whether or not there is any natural phenomenon For the things the quote-unquote beings say or do via eyewitness and cross-examination Etc. I Think there may be I Earlier question they gave it made me think that like court cases. They were trying to argue like can't court cases a Verdict in it count for evidence. I think that's something to what they're doing now Are they saying that I'm not allowed to ask for evidence? Let's see It's alright. We can we can go. I'm not fully sure what it means to be honest Meow meow meow. Thanks for your question again. So that by the way you should pronounce sigh sigh, okay? Great things next up. Let's see Carnivorous ape get everybody correcting my pronunciation so carnivorous ape says Can you as praise my only religious people seem to get possessed by demons? Well, I think that's a good point. Maybe a lot of people don't realize they're possessed and they like it and Maybe that's another whole another realm to go or another path to go down to but it's usually the people that have spiritual discernment or Religious people that know God they know light and darkness and there's something wrong and they seek to get a change So maybe that's a good Explanation for that. God wouldn't think they'd be able to under the influence of a demon Yeah, well, I mean some people like it like said people like drugs. So if it drugs in you know I mean seeking help under the influence of an even I Gotta give praise the last word here. Then I got it with the next question. Yep. Sorry James. No problem Yeah, so I think yeah when it comes to supernatural phenomenon that most people don't understand it and that's unfortunate Gotcha meow meow meow. Thanks for your super jet just came in said I've been studying sigh literature since 2005 is ESP is like a normal part of human and non-human animal life Jim is right that sigh doesn't imply Super natural Boom praise So yeah, well, that's not that's not congruent with what the the peers in the where what they're saying within their what amongst their peers and in that in that Communication of science so I would say that's not necessarily consistent with what he claims. Well, there's no consistency in peri-psychology Next up Ellie Tamborini, thanks for your question says to Jim majors. Do you consider beyond the data? Like if you have no experience if you have not experienced it, maybe it's beyond the scope If you're asking do I speculate I try not to Gotcha next. Thanks for your question from Sahi Luke. Oh Yeah, for a number of days. He said James You don't read my questions. What's going on? We do it's just that Sometimes they come at the last minute and want to let you know folks if we ever I do really I hate doing that to you Though because I know that sometimes we do miss questions And so forgive me folks. We're trying our best Sahi Luke. Thanks for your question said what is your main argument against? praises case that included peer reviewed supporting evidence and then in parentheses. They said exorcism in general Different definitions of demon quote-unquote is irrelevant No, it's absolutely not irrelevant because the the different classifications and the different descriptions of Demons it changes across the culture. Some of them anthropomorphize them. Some of them keep them as penuma just as this as As as these these spirits Some of them classify them as just lesser deities the the Hebrew Bible the closest thing, you know to to two demons is foreign gods or idols the gods of The Moabites the Ammonites the Moshek, it's I'm sorry, Malik it's There's the only consistency there is is after the established dualism and negative connotation of demons in the second to third century CE this is this is not some some ancient Held belief it's a a a borrowing and a Redacting of of a previously owned concept Gotcha, and karag night wolf. Thanks for your question longtime viewer of modernity debate says Do demons make anyone do anything impressive such as fly or breathe fire and not just beat up Cops, I actually read a story about a demon possession as my was possessed by four demons and he masturbated furiously for four days straight Praise that's an admirable thing there Pretty amazing Some demonic stamina Master debater enough of your guys's Demon stories a master Demonabater praise this question is for you. They're making fun of you praise. What's your answer? No, we're not. We love praise Yeah, likewise No, I haven't really seen that guess that's partly I mean, maybe I should do more Accounts and what's going on with the stories out there? I only know a few of them. I do know one though where Where they came in as aliens or grave people or great or where they call slimy great people and they lifted They lifted actually lifted them up and and they pray the name of Jesus and they felt they came back down in the bed They left so I do know a couple of them, but I need to go into more of them though Gotcha. Thanks so much. I love mad ask. Can you ask if praise believes that Jin's exist? Jin's are the Islamic version of demons Sure, I just because There are other accounts out there means me doesn't mean we shouldn't discount them. They could be somehow correlated and maybe even so I would say maybe the The the Islamic What does they call that's the Quran that maybe the Quran was actually a fabrication, but the stuff in there could be real So this it's good to have an open mind Gotcha want to say thanks so much folks. We are thrilled. Let's see Okay, Samuel little home says basically isn't the method namely a Jury let's say finding a making a conclusion based on the evidence in court So a court case isn't the method a completely reasonable method to use for this Subject Jim and if not then why? Sure, yeah, it absolutely is but part of evidence being supporting court is being able to establish a causal link from your evidence to the the the defendant or the the The prosecution you know, well whatever your Whatever you're trying trying to prove whether innocence or the guilt whatever you have to you can't just say I found this knife Therefore, he's he's guilty. You have to establish a link and there is no link between Parapsychology and demons there's no link between Between claimed exorcisms and and demons I've already established that there is a a a a universalist like Concept of of Possession and a concept of exercising these demons that are that that differ with the With the desired result. Gotcha, and Andrew Handelsman. I think we did not get to read his super chat from the other night He insists we read it now. So we'll read it. I'm confused. I He says it's about something about beta or soy, but he's the only one I Only one I see here Andrew is it says Austin? I said I saw you leave the dollar store with a NASA shirt What's up with that? So I think that was your trolling Austin wits. It gets it. I'm trying to figure it Where is Andrew? I wish I could get a NASA shirt for a dollar point me to that third store, baby. I Have no idea Andrew what you're you're are you trolling me Andrew? He's he's trolling you in your schnitz. He says beta But yes, thank you for that and we I have no idea but want to say thanks so much everybody We are thrilled. We appreciate our guests. Thanks so much to Jim and praise. It's been a true pleasure You can find them linked in the description to click and find them and also want to let you know We are very excited folks to let you know that we will be back this week. You will see I think it's like there's Jim Majors is is major is is is is twin brother John Maddox will be back Tomorrow night, it'll be a tag team debate. It's going to be tremendous folks. Believe me You are going to enjoy it. That should be a lot of fun Then Wednesday Erika gut-sick Gibbon will be returning as moderator for an epic debate between her good friend Walker and Texas Ranger it could be I command you in the name of modern-day debate to subscribe and like Thank you very much. Both of you are demonic guests. We appreciate these guys and want to let you know happy Halloween folks We hope you've had a great day and night Also, though. Yes, this Thursday bottom of your screen Marxist versus capitalist that should be a juicy one And so Andrew Handelsman, thanks so much for your support in the chat says hit that like button on the way out Please do folks that does mean a lot and so thanks so much. We will see you next time which Monday, that's right. So thanks so much and have a great rest of your night folks Thanks so much for hanging out with us. It's all gonna kick out of it So want to say a huge thank you. We really do appreciate you for hanging out here. It's always fun And so happy Halloween Also, we are very excited folks We have some big big news coming out in the next month in terms of an epic debate a Ground-shaking debate that'll take place in January as well That's we were talking to Michael Schermer about an epic one with basically him and inspiring philosophy Debating whether or not Christianity is dangerous. So that should be a really fun one But yeah, we've got a lot. I think November on like some of the debates we've got scheduled already are just Amazing and so we are really pumped about that we let's see I'm trying to think of any others that we might have down kind of coming down the tube in November we're hoping we're gonna invite cosmic skeptic back and That will be for a debate on veganism probably so that'd be epic and we're also excited to host Hopefully this is we're thinking maybe well, that's right. November starts tomorrow. Oh my gosh That's that came quick. We are hoping Yes, Andrew Handelsman. Thanks for your question. We are hoping we do have an Agreement from Aaron and Nathan Thompson. So that one's actually happening. I can't believe it myself to be honest I'm like is this for real and Mank Dean says is Michael Schermer the bike rider That yeah, that is actually true. He used to be a professional bike rider. I'm pretty sure he was like a professional like he was like pretty much, you know It's hard to Let's see It's hard to overstate how good a bike a biker he was so on the old bicycle great athlete so really cool and Now the basically the if I remember right the term would be founder and president of Skeptic magazine you guys have seen Michael Schermer I would think by now I'd be like super surprised if you didn't if you don't know who Michael Schermer is Does anybody you know like let me know in the chat if you guys don't know but want to say thanks so much Lily, Ajah, or Ajay Thanks so much for all your support. Totally appreciate it. Thanks for let's see the night life NJ1 Emma, I feel like this is the first time I've seen you in chat So welcome if you've if you've been here before forgive my terrible memory Brett katula. Thanks for being here. You seem kind of new too, but I don't get to moderate all the time So if you've been here before forgive me Renee NME glad to see you back. Thanks so much for partying with us and Metal jacket good to see you again always a pleasure. So yes, we are pumped though folks it's gonna be a lot of fun and Master off ticks. Yeah, glad you're here. I remember saying hi to you earlier in chat is I always do appreciate it's nice to get to actually talk to people and Lily Ajah says like and subscribe cuties Cuties That's right. So for example like Nephilim free type cuties, you know, so we are pumped though you guys I It's been so crazy lately, and I honestly I wish that I got to moderate more often You've probably noticed like Monday Wednesday. It's usually instead of me. I'm gone I'm it's out with the old and in with the new and so you don't see me on Mondays and Wednesdays very often anymore and we are thrilled and thankful to have Carissa who does a great job she usually helps out on Mondays sometimes Wednesdays and then Erica and a Ka gut-sick Gibbon, they do a tremendous job So we're really thankful if they just love to help and we it really does mean a lot that that kind of support really does Go a long way. So Der Weasel says howdy Howdy back friend glad you're here. Lily. I just says you always struggle with my name. It is pronounced like Asia Oh, Lily Asia. Thanks so much for glad you're here I'm so glad you let me know that because I would not have known otherwise So the Lions of the Lord says demons Yes Lions of the Lord. We are pumped that you were here for real. I mean that we really do appreciate it Lily Asia says I love Carissa Amazing. Yes, we do. She's tremendous. She really is cool and Andrew says any news regarding Mark Drizdeal coming back. He doesn't live too far from me. Yes We we're talking I've got to reach out to Mark because we do we are gonna try to set up a like kind of a final round between Mark and Kent Hovind This Thursday or not this Thursday. Sorry folks this November. I've got November and Thursday mixed up in my mind That's how you know, it's bad. I'm I'm sleepy. I'm fading here and Master Optic says by the way, can we have Aaron's idea of a debate between Hovind and Nathan about Flat Earth. I Could not agree more. We've tried One it's hard to get Hovind on for any topic anymore It's it's pretty tough, but especially I've asked him for Flat Earth before and even before we ever had kind of like a little bit of the where it was kind of tough to get him to come back on and He just he doesn't really seem to want to debate Flat Earth He would he'd always refer me to somebody else and so I think it'd be great I actually do think it would just be hilarious and awesome But I just don't know. I don't see it happening. I wish we could though and so Michael McGillicuddy says Amazing thanks so much Michael. I couldn't agree more the night life and J1 says hey James keep it up. The channel is doing well. Thanks so much friend. Really do appreciate that We're glad you're here. We're it's exciting man having Bart Ehrman on was a true Honor like that was something that was like I I just didn't really see that ever happening So last night's debate was 100% epic. So it really did enjoy that and Let's see metal jacket says good show, but got a little repetitive, but I was enjoying proving unicorns in the chat Thank you and big daddy sheep and Z thanks so much for being here with us. Glad to see you back says today was deep, huh? Ha ha It was an interesting one to be sure to be honest. I'm glad that praise Like took the route. He did there are way worse routes that you can try to take in terms of like trying to are you for demons? I think that there are worse ones and so I I'm kind of like glad that It was better. It's not that I didn't expect it to be It's not that I expected it to be bad I didn't expect it to be bad, but I you know as a tough topic to defend and so I Didn't expect it to be quite as good as it was. I think it was better than I expected so thanks for praise for that and Thanks, Andrew Handelsman says James. I I was sad you didn't host Austin in Surveyor Me too. I was originally scheduled for that Andrew and I had no joke I think it was like either the night before or the day of I was so just Lat this most recent week was the worst in a long time I basically I Think it was Wednesday night. I didn't sleep. I just to catch up on work. I worked through the night So that I'm so thankful that Someone was able to take that's right. It was a praise who who'd moderated that some that's who it was Because I remember I think I asked him like the day of it was it maybe even like three in the afternoon He's like hey, and he was like totally old moderated so we appreciate that praise and then big daddy sheep and Zee says was Amazing Couldn't agree more and they said are you hosting Nathan and are in rock? Yes. We are folks. Take a look at this You don't believe me. I mean I want you to see here You see that praise is still pictured in the top right of the screen And he's just standing really still crazy. Are you still there to your camera freeze or something? Basically, let me go change it to the other border. Hold on this debate honestly that you're seeing in the bottom right of your screen Aron raw and Nathan Thompson seriously That is scheduled for this Friday. Aron has agreed Nathan has agreed Unless something crazy comes up. Hopefully that the election goes smoothly and doesn't interfere with our debate That will honestly be so cool and then Lily Asia says did you see the destiny debate moderated by Jesse Lee Peterson the other night? No, I didn't are you serious? That's funny. Let me see if I can find that. There's a destiny debate moderated by Jesse Lee Peterson That's so cool that's I think they both live in Los Angeles and That's cool, and it's also it would just be funny to see them destiny debate Let's see if there's something recent One day ago. Okay in election debate. I'm looking at it right now. Oh Okay, so I see destiny there. I see Wow, this looks pretty fancy and well done. Good for them. That's awesome Excited for them and how awesome this looks I love it. That's something we really want to do a lot more in-person debates in the future Oh, they have a is it Andrew claiming. I can't remember his name from the daily. Yeah, Andrew claiming Okay, I don't know the other fellows, but it looks epic. So encourage people to check that out I'll put that in the live chat right now if you guys want to peek and see that we always want to Spread the word about debates no matter where they are We want to give you guys the option the info to consider it and and that way you can consider watching it So I just put that debate in the live chat. Lily Asia says it was three versus one and it was epic Amazing. I'm so glad to hear that. That's so cool. Oh Yeah, big daddy sheep New Zealand. I personally will be moderating the Aron and Nathan Thompson debate So that'll be at 9 p.m. This coming Friday and yeah, I'm pumped that I'll actually get to do that Fridays and Saturdays I'm like almost always able to moderate which is cool and then Aron and Nathan that's going to be fire I couldn't agree more Andrew and so want to say Mank Deem says Jordan Peterson versus Jesse Lee Peterson that would be epic I think they agree on an awful lot, but it would be epic indeed We do this is like, you know, who knows how it goes. We don't there's no guarantee But we would my hope is to get to host Jordan Peterson this summer. That's a huge lofty goal Lord willing. We'll have it happen, but there's no guarantee So that would be epic and so do appreciate you guys for hanging out here though And yeah, we do really plan on putting together some huge awesome epic in-person debates over the summer That should be a lot of fun for you guys and Yes, why don't let you know We appreciate you for real. Thanks for hanging out here. I'm gonna go to bed. And so our Rattah Rattah Zala Thanks for your hanging out with us says beta and then Georgie George Georgie says guys, thank you for existing keep safe and catch you next week. Thanks so much friend We appreciate that and so we we love you. We appreciate you. Thanks guys. Love you guys and gals It's always a pleasure. I hope you know if I ever use the word guys I mean it in a gender neutral way So it's like just where I came from up in good old, Wisconsin We say guys all the time like hey guys And it could be like the whole group is a mix of men and women so in case anybody's triggered by that Not my goal, but thanks so much. Lily Asia for your positive positivity kind words. Thanks so much Andrew Thanks so much for everybody else appreciate you and we hope you have a great rest of your Halloween Happy Halloween. Don't forget to turn your clocks back. That's right. We get an hour back. That's awesome Master optic says keep the awesome channel being awesome James. See you. Thanks so much, brother Appreciate that or sister. I don't know who if it's a brother or sister, but big daddy Sheep New Zealand. Thanks so much says would you ever consider doing a special show just showcasing your views on a lot of these issues? Not on this channel because we always promise we would always do just nothing but debates other than you know Once I will put out a video that's like thank you or you know something like that But unless it's a moderated debate I don't really want to put out my views because I feel like I want it to be like if I'm gonna put out my views At least on these particular topics like if I took a political stance or something like that I would want it to be a moderated debate. So it's like just you know, so I'm basically a debater like everybody else is and the only thing that I will like personally advocate for or Proclaim and you could say be nonpartisan about is the value of debates, you know We've we've always said that we think debates are absolutely essential We think that in a lot of places in society whether it be It could be anywhere theoretically right and I think you guys have probably experienced it in different places Maybe sometimes you've experienced it in like a religious institution. Maybe you've experienced it at the University Maybe you've even experienced it at like a skeptic group or something like it could be anywhere It's just human nature sometimes humans want to shut down debate and I don't think it's good I think that it's there's just too big of a value to debate and so that's something we I will be willing to you know Take a stance on but want to say thanks so much Appreciate you always fun. I would be willing to go on other channels though So once in a while you'll see me I get invited to go on another channel and do like a little discussion or debate Which is fun and I'll like you know take a hard, you know a firm position there So that's cool. And then but yeah, Anthony. Thanks for hanging out here as well Amazing so thanks so much everybody. We hope you have a great rest of your night and happy Halloween very spooky. Take care Thanks so much


Ah, hey Facebook, I messed up. I'm back. I'm not gonna go into it tonight, but I gotta check this out, see if it works. I tried something new, it didn't work. I apologize.  Oh boy, I'm gonna stay on the personal lane, just go to my page and see if it's working. It is, this is cool though. This StreamYard is pretty cool. I mean, how neat is this? Cool beans. Hey guys, I'm outta here, goodnight. I'll hit you next time.


And the tiger financial news network. Good morning, everybody. I'm Tommy O'Brien, coming to you live from TFNN 10 a.m. Eastern Time Thursday morning. We're 30 minutes into the trading day and you got markets accelerating right now off of a low of just above 3940 in the S&Ps. And we are now positive by eight points in the futures. And you're talking about a pop right now approaching almost a full 1% from where we were. The lows just after the open were now charging higher. Solid 35 points off of that low. We made just 25 minutes ago. S&Ps up by about 10 points on the session or a quarter percent. Nasdaq 100 barely in the green, but the Nasdaq 100. You just traded from a price point of 12,110. You're up 100 and 10 points or so from that level. You're talking about almost a 1% pop. We got volatility everywhere. The Dow charges higher by 116 points. Look at the Russell. Look at the Russell move from 1832. This is all on the open, man. We're going to go over. We got a lot of economic numbers before the open retail sales. Initial jobless claims out as well. But boy, this market rocketing off the open right now. Bitcoin up 200 bucks. Ethereum completes their merger up $11. Gold having a tough one right now under 1700. But gold catching a little bit of a bid with the market over the last 20 or 25 minutes. Silver is flat at 1956. And we jump to notes and bonds. The lower price, higher yield, folks. You got the tenure right now. 3.44% 3.44% just off of the lows made earlier. We jump over to some of those headline numbers. Retail sales out this morning. Overall numbers rising 0.3% in August. I think they were looking for a decline of 0.1%. July retail retail sales revised a bit lower to a 0.4% decline. Eight of the 13 retail categories grew last month, including a surge in sales at auto dealers. When you talk about declines, you saw furniture stores, health and personal care stores and non-store retailers decline. The value of sales at gas stations slumped again. Excuse me, not too surprising there. We jump over to the other employment number out today. Initial jobless claims. You're talking about 213,000. The market was looking for about 227,000. Healthy economy. People got jobs, man. You can't deny that one. That number out at 830 as well. It's going to be an interesting one, folks. Markets in positive territory. We got two-way moves. Our man Basil Chapman's out today. Send him some white light, folks. He's feeling a little bit under the weather. He hopes to be back even tomorrow. But Jacob Shu, he is filling in for Basil. Coming up live next for the Tiger Technicians Hour. Stay tuned, folks. Have a great one.