Hello everyone. Well, there's so many of you. This is our very first time in Chicago. We took more than 20 hours flight from our hometown in Jakarta, Indonesia to be here. A bit of a jet lag, but we are very excited to share today what we learned on growing our internal developer platform for companies, inside companies. My name is Geary, and here's my colleague Joshua. Both of us are infrastructure engineers from GoToFinancial. GoToFinancial is a financial arm of GoToGroup, the leading digital ecosystem in Indonesia. Our ecosystem provides various service offerings from ride-hailing service using motorcycle, bike taxi service, foot delivery service, package delivery service, e-commerce, and many others. For today, we are focusing mostly on the GoToFinancial case study. When the company was just started, we created a product called GoPay from the ground up. This GoPay is a digital payment product to serve the use case of our customers, to enable them to pay cashless when they order services in our ecosystem. GoPay right now is one of the largest payment companies in Southeast Asia. As the business grows, the GoPay engineering organization grows to more than 230 plus developers. Spread across 30 different teams, we maintain 30 different Kubernetes clusters across multiple cloud providers and data centers. These clusters became the foundation of our cloud-native infrastructure. As our team grows, the scale grows, and the cloud-native community is moving really, really fast. As an infrastructure team, we always want to introduce something new that we learn from the community to our infrastructure. This makes our infrastructure more and more complex every day, and developers suffer from the things that we ask them to. Let's say bumping their hem charts. There was a time when we asked them to bump hem charts like three times a day to prepare for, let's say, 1.16 Kubernetes might upgrade and so on. It took us a few years to realize that we had to create a platform to abstract this complex infrastructure. We started building this abstraction three years back with two purposes. The first purpose was we wanted to shield the developers from learning curve of Kubernetes and its ecosystem. And on the other side, we as an infrastructure team would want to maintain and govern infrastructure to easily cross our plate of Kubernetes clusters. So how does our platform abstraction look like? We expose an interface that developers or product engineers use on daily basis. This is nothing but a UI portal, a simple interface, and we expose only what the product engineers need instead of exposing entire Kubernetes yamls for them to configure and apply in our clusters. On the other side, we, the infra engineers or platform engineers, maintain a set of standardized Kubernetes templates for our use case. We maintain a couple of hem charts that are standard across our infrastructure. This creates separation of concern between what matters to product engineers and what matters to infrastructure engineers. The platform then orchestrates the inputs that product engineers have provided us using the UI portal, combined with the standard helm charts that we have. We generate the Kubernetes manifest, push it in our central GitOps repository, and leverage our GoCD to sync applications across the clusters that we have. Through this abstraction, this platform, the product engineers are able to run their applications, scale the replicas of their workloads, routing canary traffic to their workloads, adjusting CPU memory size, without writing single yamls or modifying single yamls. So we only expose what matters to product engineers through this UI portal. The impact of this abstraction for the past two, three years, we were able to roll out Istio that we learned, I think, two years back, to 100% of our services in infrastructure, which is around 1,000 applications, within only a year. We were able to remove deprecated Kubernetes APIs prepared for our upgrades when there's a breaking change. The community deprecate beta APIs easily without developers knowing. So we are more disciplined in upgrading our clusters regularly. We were able to schedule to move the workloads to on-demand instances to our pull-off spot instances. We made this self-service through our platform, so it becomes easy for developers to make it more efficient in running their application. And finally, we were able to improve the utilization of our clusters through automating resource adjustments regularly in our infrastructure. This abstraction, this platform grows into a developer platform inside our company. We call this internally as GOPSH developer platform. The platform consists of five different planes in our architecture. First plane is what we call developer control plane. This is the main interface, the gateway for product engines to interact with our infrastructure and set of toolings. This is nothing but a common UI portal where developers can configure their application and associated components. The second plane is integration and delivery plane. This plane is responsible for building the application code into image, container image artifact, push it to image registry that we maintain, and then first our GOCD to roll out those images across the environments and clusters that we maintain in our infrastructure. The third plane is monitoring and logging plane. This helps developers in debugging, troubleshooting, and monitoring their running applications across the environments. And the fourth plane is security plane. This plane is responsible, help us in governing resources access across the infrastructure that we maintain and managing our secrets. These four planes are working, collaborate closely together, making it a management plane, management layer, which eventually creates edits and sometimes delete the real resources in our infrastructure across Kubernetes spots and virtual machines. We make our platform extensible through implementation of Open Service Broker API specification. We have a concept called add-on marketplace. Each add-on is maintained by different infrastructure teams across the organizations, and sometimes product engineers also contribute to this add-ons that they want to make it available across the organizations. With this concept, they don't need to make changes to our front-end code base, and because there's a JSON schema concept provided from the backend, we could generate the UI form in the portal without asking them to contribute to our common code base. And then through this add-ons marketplace, product engineers are able to do anything beyond Kubernetes deployments, so things like provisioning red dates, provisioning database, resizing their dates, day-to-operations, configuring logging and exposing domain to public, sometimes exposing domain to our third-party partners. They are able to do everything from this UI portal without knowing too much details. And we are able to separate the lifecycle between the core platform and each of the add-ons lifecycle because of this extension mechanism. As the business grows and to support the business expansion, we acquired multiple companies. We acquired a company called Mid-Trans. This is an online payment gateway company to support our online payment use cases. We acquired Mocha. This is a point-of-sale system company to support our offline integrations across merchants in Indonesia, the whole Indonesia. We acquired multiple lending companies to support our GoPay later, the lending business installment features in our app, and we acquired a few other companies and made tight integration strategic partnerships with other institutions, and these are becoming go-to financial family. While these acquired companies provide critical contributions to our business, they gave us a challenge, each of these acquired companies has their own independent infrastructure team, or platform team. What are the problems with this independent infrastructure team? There's a couple of problems. First, there's a very high variance of our infrastructure stack and tools that are used across go-to financial, despite we are working closely together, collaborate together to maintain the products. So, for instance, some companies use Helm and Customize to deploy their Kubernetes manifest. Some are using Flux CD, and for us, we are leveraging Argo CD a lot as a standard. This creates unnecessary frictions to collaborate across engineering organizations. Imagine the monitoring dashboards are very fragmented. Company A has their own monitoring dashboard. The other companies have their own monitoring dashboards. So, it's very hard to correlate when there's an incident, and it's very hard to correlate one service to another service if the services are spread across engineering organizations. We identify these infra teams are redundant. They are trying to achieve the same thing, to serve and help making product engineers life better. And these redundant tools provide us with cost-saving opportunities. So, to solve these problems, we decided to consolidate the infrastructure team. From each independent infra team, we consolidate to be one infra or platform team, common shared team that serves not only one product, not only one engineering organization, but supports the entire engineering organizations across go-to financial. So, we tried to do more with less. However, again, consolidation gives us challenges. So, when we talk to many engineers in each of the organizations, we learn what are the differences in their practices, what are the gaps, what are the use cases that we haven't covered yet in our platform. We had a dilemma. The dilemma was this. Whether we extend our developer platform to support their new use cases or negotiate, ask them to deprecate their existing tools, existing practice, and adopt what we have at the moment. Another challenge is that because we are running in a very highly regulated industry, the financial industry, each company must comply to different set of regulations. So, for instance, for our payment business, we need to comply with the Central Bank of Indonesia regulations. For our lending business, we need to comply with financial services authority, which gives sometimes set of different compliance requirements from the Central Bank. And for our payment gateway, we need to comply with the PCI DSS standards. We got lucky. All of these acquired companies are already running on Kubernetes. They have containers, their applications completely. So, this makes them a good candidate to onboard to our developer platform. And their Kubernetes clusters are running across the GCP AWS and private DNS center. Next, Joshua is going to share our consolidation journey and how we onboard these acquired companies to our developer platform. Okay. Thank you, Giri, for the great introduction. So, what do we mean by when we say that we are going to onboard the workloads of the other team to our platform? Giri has just mentioned that, fortunately, all of the companies that we are going to onboard are already using Kubernetes, right? So, this means that the respective companies and team has made sure that their workloads are able to run on top of Kubernetes. And most importantly, containerized. We had an experience back then where we had to onboard workloads from VM to Kubernetes, and it was way more painful indeed. This means that there's already a running Kubernetes cluster with live workloads, with incoming production traffic. And we were thinking, in order to make the process faster and more efficient, why don't we just use this existing cluster rather than creating new ones from scratch? So, the first thing that we do to enable and unlock the features of GOPSH on a particular Kubernetes cluster is that we are installing several operator, controller, and agent that is needed on the cluster and correspond to our product offerings. Each of these clusters is, interestingly, managed as its own ARGO CD application. We then define several namespaces that we label as GOPSH Manage. So, let's say for the workloads that are going to be deployed to this GOPSH namespace, they will be auto-injected with Istio Sidecar. Namespace, in our use case, are mapped to the structure of the team for the visibility of cost, versioning, resource tagging, and other. And if possible, if we see a potential of clusters being merged, we merge them. So, let's say that there were no blocker of compliance and turns out that services from the different companies are serving the same purposes than less cluster to manage. The second thing is the theme itself. We define particular Google groups where the infra team and developers are part of it, and then we add them to the larger Google group as the users of our platform. We proceed with the creation of the namespace, and then we define our back. So, let's say product engineers will have limited just view-only access to the Kubernetes cluster, no edit, no delete. On a default scenario, they can see they're running workloads on our ARGO CD dashboard that we exposed, and they can also file just-in-time access requests for emergency. While the infra team will have the privileged access for the clusters. Currently, the way that product engineers use GoPSH as their deployment tool is that they copy a deployment script that will be available on the UI portal to their repository pipeline configuration, which will trigger a GoPSH client binary that we'll call our deployment API. This call will retrieve and pass several metadata, like what's the name of the surfaces, in which cluster and namespaces that they want to deploy this to. And most importantly is the URL of the content image from an artifact registry. And since that has been mentioned that all the companies are already using Kubernetes, these info of... They already have their own way to build and containerize their application. Thus, their repository will already have this information of this content image that we can just utilize. If they want to create a new application, they can also create new one from scratch, and we also provide a uniform way to build, like let's say with predefined base image. So the gap usually lies and is covered in the structure of HelmChart because this usually reflects the nuts and bolts of the running surfaces. These differences to the one that we centrally manage by our infra team. So for example, we found that in other companies, they are using the deployment with the type of stateful set for their corresponding use cases. Or on others, their services need file mount for their Java application for its startup configuration process. We knew that there won't be any workaround or other approach for this kind of needs and use cases. Thus, we need to extend our support of our platform to be able to accommodate this scenario. Monitoring, logging, and alerting, this is essential for product engineers to enable them to analyze the health of their running surfaces and debug when there's any kind of production issue. On our side, our infrastructure team hosted our in-house ELQ stack. For custom metrics, since we have already supported either the push method of StatsV Explorer to Victoria metrics or the pull method where developers can send data to, let's say, a particular slash metrics endpoint in which then it will be scraped by an agent. Hence, developers from the other team can just use either of these methods according to their needs, whichever they find the most comfortable to. And one of the interesting things that we encounter on this onboarding journey is that some of the companies need to comply to a certain regulation as has been mentioned, right? In which we will have to make sure that all of the data, including the metrics data, to be located locally in Indonesia. So we make changes that previously our agent pushed the metrics data to our central infrastructure cluster, but now we reverse it to the VM cluster data on the respective local cluster. So metrics data can stay there, but monitoring dashboards are still intact and accessible. For logging, we found some companies that are writing their application log-to files, so we encourage them to write to STD out instead, as favorable by the 12-factor app standards. Some are having their own log parser, the app as a sidecar. So in case rather than we try to extend our support to be able to add another sidecar other than the STO-injected one, we port these log parser to our existing TD agent Daemon set. So there are some considerations that we can abide by if we encounter these kind of gaps and differences in this onboarding journey. The first one is that if there's already a guideline that if not all, perhaps most of the developer, members of the developer community has agreed that it has indeed some upsides and benefits, there seem to be no reason as why not to follow this existing so-called golden path. The second one is definitely compliance. FinTech is a highly-regulated one, as has been mentioned, so if there's a need for that, we definitely can't say no to putting effort in making that to comply, because or else, our company can't operate. The third one, if we found a discrepancy, which means changes need to be made either on our side as a platform or on their side, both in terms of their workloads and infrastructure, we only need to be aware that we should keep it to the minimum, because we assure that other than consolidation, they already have and busy with developing and supporting their business as usual processes. And the last one, I think, is the big theme that is applicable to most companies in recent times that I think most of us in the room, the infrastructure team can relate to. This kind of consolidation event or even if there isn't any that is currently going on in your company. If your company has scaled to a point where silos are likely to happen across teams, it might be a good reason, it might be a good opportunity to audit and recap once in a while what are the technologies and the engineering culture that is happening across teams. Even if autonomy is a good thing, that everything has its own flavor, of way of doing things, it surely has to support a bigger goal and backed by a strong reason. So let's say productivity and redundancy or contact switching, it's not one of them. I want to mention that either the decision to support or deprecate these technologies are sometimes, and especially in our case, highly contextual. It is definitely not a testament to the quality of the services and the products that we mentioned in itself, but more often than not, is about the capacity, the bandwidth, the familiarity and experiences that the teams already had. So how are we making this consolidation to happen? The first thing that we do is that we create a task force that comprises of the one to two members of each of the smaller team in our infrastructure department, in which they will be responsible for the whole consolidation journey and will have regular cadences with the engineering representative for each of their respective companies. We knew that if we want to go far, we need to go together. So finding allies and having their buy-ins are playing a big part in making this consolidation successful. One thing that we learned is buy-in needs to work both ways through the leadership and also to the engineering teams. We want to make sure that this long process of consolidation will, at the very end, have the goal to benefit all of the parties. And for that to be able to be understood, we need to talk in their languages. Even to the most technically proficient management, if they understand how it works, they're less likely to be able to convince, let's say, the upper leadership or C-level if we weren't talking about, perhaps, cost or better productivity these will benefit the company going forward. For other product engineers and infra teams, this happened with making sure that they are convinced that their lives are to be made easier, both in the process of onboarding itself and also after. We are achieving this by several things like finding the right balance on how we cover the gap and making sure that the product offerings of our infra team is something that will be useful for them all. For example, we found that the product engineers of the onboarded teams, they are highly interested in our future of canary deployment with the traffic weight and routing that will be able to be used by every users of our platform out of the box once they are getting onboarded. And for the infra team, they even admit that it is painful in creating and managing certificates manually. They are drawn to our centralized cert management. The vertical cooperation to leadership is what we call mandate, and the horizontal one to the engineers is what we call movements. Sometimes we tend to just focus on one, thinking that winning one side will help us to win the other side, which might not be the case. In our scenario, we found that winning both of them are equally important. Along the journey, we found several people that I'm going to borrow this term. We could call allies, people that are convinced by the vision and the goal of this consolidation that shows enthusiasm and are willing to help. We found them both in leadership when we present to them, which later they help us by giving guidance and alignment to the engineering team that they manage. We found them in engineers and infra team that they can see the benefit from this consolidation as well. We do these over impromptu lunches, sharing sessions, and whatnot. Usually onboarding of these companies are done in several steps. We start with discovery analysis of what gaps are there, between what our infrastructure can serve and what they're expecting. We pick two to three surfaces and try to onboard them to our platform as the proof of concept. Then we proceed with the preparation for the platform and the cluster as has been mentioned. Planning is done by picking the least critical surfaces, educating the service owner and the infra team, and then we estimate the duration of how long the onboarding process might take. When we onboard the workload, this is done by creating the exact copy of the running workloads to the GoPaySH Managed Namespace, which can be easily be achieved by our GoPaySH platform UI portal. We then check with the service owner and the infra team whether the onboard service already meets their expectations, like whether the connectivity is already there, whether one service could already talk to one another, logging and monitoring our presence on the dashboard or not. Then we cut over by routing the call destination of the client, removing the workload, deprecating the older pipeline. Then the last, we make sure that handover of all process and components managed and all the informations related to it are being documented well so that it can be passed to the respective team later. We make the workload onboarding very easy with just several steps and clicks through our UI portal. They can just input the running workload name. The portal will call the Kubernetes API that will retrieve the object-related data and specification, so let's say expose application port or probe configuration, CPU memory resources. We'll sorry on our end, and then this will generate the deployment script on the UI portal, and then they can just copy-paste this script to be triggered later from the repository for the deployment of their workload. So an interesting story here, as has been mentioned, the initial motivation in us building the GoPay HH platform is for us to be able to onboard the existing GoPay workloads that was already on Kubernetes to be using service mesh with Istio. We're trying to onboard live production workloads of product engineers serving live traffic with zero downtime, which was why we also made the onboarding really easy as have shown on the previous slide. Giri and my other colleague, Imre, was talking about this in-depth in the previous Qtcon LA. We tried this manual way of tracking all of the services and spreadsheet and circulating info and guidance to the product engineers, and after a painful 12 months, that will be failed because it got stopped, which turns out that it's bound to happen again. So none of the companies that we are currently onboard, none of them are using Istio. And the initial reaction is that they are hesitant to it. They were asking, what will happen to their workloads? Will there be any downtime? More cost. And if we try to think from their perspective and try to pour ourselves in their shoes, that is very understandable to change the way how a running workload, which must be up 24-7, that serves millions how they are running is to be changed. Our journey with leveraging Istio in production of three years might not be long compared to others, but through the experience, we embodied this in the way we are onboarding them to our surface mesh-enabled platform. We picked a surface and made them SPOC, and then they can see the benefits and upsides that they can get. We pair with them through regular cadence. We also use data-backed arguments in response to their inquiries. So the two most... The two questions that we get the most is that if we introduce more components, wouldn't that mean that it will have more infra cost? And the second one is that if we introduce a proxy in front of their layer, doesn't it mean more latency? From our experience, these two are negligible, and the benefits of using Istio weigh outweights these two concerns. So let's say they will have a leaner code that their application code does not have to handle all the things related to network and security. They can have canary deployment that will route a smaller percentage of their production traffic. They will have the surface graph of Keali and Yeager to visualize the surfaces call and the other mountains of wealth of metrics generated by Istio and Anavoy in regards to the application. All of these doesn't even exist in their setup and application earlier, but they can get these out of the box by just getting on a virtual platform. Now, Giri will continue the story with the current result of the consolidation that is still in progress. So how did we do with the consolidation so far? We are still in the middle of consolidation. We are currently migrating... We have migrated more than 700 services to our platform including 11 clusters and eight teams across the required companies. We have started this consolidation activity since the middle 2023 this year. We have deprecated 10 redundant tools and we have identified, discovered 50 more tools can be deprecated. We have deprecated more than 20 health charts and before this we have deprecated more than 100 charts. We have freed up 30 developers across these companies so they get more bandwidth to prioritize working on their product features. And because we were able to deprecate redundant tools, we have seen the reduction in our license spending collectively under the go-to financial family. This consolidation activity adds more workloads and responsibility to our infra team. Right now we maintain around 50 Kubernetes clusters across AWS, GCP and private data center in Singapore and Indonesia region. This consists more than 700 compute notes of 3,000 pods. This adds extra workload to our ArgoCD. Currently our ArgoCD is centralized. Single instance ArgoCD which obviously hits the scalability issue. We have to tune the performance of our ArgoCD along the way. Right now our central ArgoCD is responsible for 11,000 applications, 6,000 repositories, around 60 projects and watching more than 380,000 objects. I'll be talking more about this with my other colleague tomorrow. How we tune our central ArgoCD instance. If you are interested, please come to our talk at 11 a.m. tomorrow. To recap, there are three takeaways from our talk today. First, consolidating tools, whether it's teams or acquired companies definitely bring cost benefits. We were able to recover productivity by freeing up developers to work on what matters to them and improve collaboration through utilizing the shared toolings and shared dashboards across engineering organizations. Second, finding allies were very, very helpful across the companies and engineering organizations. So we were able to address the gaps early and getting the requirements before we start the project and decide whether to add support to our platform or ask them to deprecate. And these allies are helping us in advocating for adoption within their respective engineering organization. Finally, we favor rolling this out consolidation through movements. As we've seen how we rolled out platform for the first time organically within the organization because of the simplicity that we offered. But sometimes there are teams or organizations, they are a bit hesitant that are a bit unconvinced. We had to ask the leadership for sponsorship and mandates to at least speed up this alignment during the discussions. We are heavily inspired by similar journey in Expedia and we refer a lot to guidance by Elastic, JFrog and Google. Thank you for having us. We are happy to take questions. We still have five minutes. Please scan the QR to leave the feedback for our session. Thank you. Yeah, so I was wondering if you can talk a little bit more about how you manage app developers code versus the configuration you're managing for all the infrastructure that backs it. I think you mentioned a single repository or something. Is all the configuration actually centralized across all those applications or how are you organizing that? Does the question make sense? Yeah, good question. I'll repeat the question. How do we manage the configuration for each application? Whether it's one big monoripo or separate repository, we use a kind of mix of them so because through this portal, this portal we have let's say users want to create an application through our platform. We usually generate the repository for one application. This one repository application is nothing but a GitOps repository which can contain multiple sub-directories to multiple target clusters that they want to connect to. Let's say there's a staging cluster, production cluster, production Singapore, production Indonesia. Smaller, smaller directory structures within the application. This application repository we generate the manifest and push it to this repository. These are the ones that our GoCID applications get seen to. Similarly, if we have, let's say, 1,000 applications, there will be 1,000 repositories to manage the GitOps repository. On the other side, in an earlier slide, there was a cluster runtime standardization. For the cluster runtime standardization, we use MonoRepo. One repo for the base layer of the layer's components in order for cluster runtime to work on. That we do MonoRepo. Tomorrow, there's a technique. How do we tune performance for our GoCID in MonoRepo and also multiple repos? It's a different problem that they give us. Hope that answers your question. Any other questions? You can use the mic. Great talk. How are you guys managing environment promotion? Do you guys visualize that for developers in your UI portal and maybe a little bit more information around that? The question is, how do we manage promotion across environments? So far, we haven't abstracted our pipelines yet. So we leverage a lot in existing pipelines. Some of the teams are using GitLab runners. Some are using GitHub actions. So as long as they have a job that fetches our GoPlace's binary which runs and call our APIs, that's good for now. But the next roadmap we're planning to bring that into our platform because it's getting harder to control the flows and standardize the flows. That's our next plan. Thank you. Have you run into an issue with offering multiple networks with the acquisition of customers? For instance, with the PCI, I know that was a big issue we had to deal with with that network segmentation with on-prem and cloud. How are you dealing with that? That's a very great question. How do we manage network connectivity across the cloud? For us, one of the companies require PCI-DSS. For the ones who require PCI-DSS, for now we don't touch the network. So they stay as is. We haven't solidated networking yet. So for how do our single-incense ArgoCD connect to those target clusters? And obviously if we create tunnels to each, tunnel mesh to each of the target clusters, it's a headache. There's no guarantee their cyber network ranges are unique to what we already have. So far, right now we prefer public network over MTLS because we don't need to ensure the unique network to connect between them. MTLS makes it very easy for us to connect to target clusters. And because we are already running Istio in Istio, it's very easy to manage the MTLS connectivity with outdoor UL certificates and so on. I hope that answers your question. Next question. I'm just curious. One of your slides you mentioned saving 30 developers by migrating onto your development platform. I'm just curious how you quantified that. Well, it's quite easy. In each of the acquired company, they have their infrastructure teams. Like, certain numbers are there, 30 infra-engineered spread across acquired companies. We don't take them into our common team. So they get to work on focus on the product works on their group. That's basically how we do it. Alright, I think the time is up. We'll continue questions in Hallway Track. Thank you so much.


Dr. John Yuen. Dr. Yuen is an assistant professor of medicine here at the University of Chicago and a faculty member in the McLean Center for Clinical Medical Ethics. Dr. Yuen received his MD from the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School. He then completed residency in internal medicine and fellowship training at the University of Chicago. Dr. Yuen's research focuses on the field of virtue ethics, moral psychology, and moral and professional formation in medical education. He is currently co-investigator on the project on the good physician, a longitudinal study of medical students funded by the New Science of Virtues Project at the University of Chicago. He's also interested in the role of burnout and a sense of calling in physicians' work, motivation, and career retention. Let's welcome Dr. Yuen. Okay. Despite widespread efforts in medical schools to form good physicians through courses in ethics and professionalism, a recurring question arises, and I believe our previous speaker, Dr. Lycombe, brought it up very nicely. This question, what are the primary goals of this education? The responses to this question tend to reflect two prevailing perspectives that dominate the medical education literature. These two perspectives constitute what is sometimes referred to as the virtue-skill dichotomy. In this paper, I argue that medical ethics and professionalism education may be enriched by insights from the rationalist intuitions debate in contemporary moral psychology. After outlining this debate, I'll then briefly discuss the implications that this debate has in teaching ethics and professionalism for medical education. And I should note that this talk is a summary of a paper that we recently published last month under the same title in the Journal of Advances in Health Sciences Education. I turned it off. Okay. What are the central goals of a medical ethics and professionalism education? Opinions vary on this subject, but in our review, two perspectives dominate the literature. As I said, the first argues that teaching ethics is a means of providing physicians with a skill set for analyzing and resolving ethical dilemmas. This perspective relies on the teaching of analytical skills related to the learning of explicit ethical rules or principles in the clinical context, traditionally based on a rules and results based approach, deontological and consequentialist ethics. The second perspective suggests that teaching ethics is a means of creating virtuous physicians. This relies on creating relationship centered mentoring training experiences through a character oriented virtues focused approach. The dichotomy constituted by these two perspectives, again referred to as a virtue skilled economy appears to be firmly entrenched in the medical education literature. And despite attempts to bridge the two perspectives, I argue that medical ethics and professions education in many ways mirrors aspects of the rationalist intuitions to be in moral psychology. In moral psychology today, approaches to moral development and education are divided into two opposing camps that are rooted in different philosophical paradigms. The rationalist camp conceptualizes moral development in a similar way as skill-based theories of ethical training in the medical literature. Both focus on the deliberate use of rationally acquired moral and ethical systems with the rationalist camp of moral psychology focused emphasizing the centrality of conscious moral values driven by moral willpower producing moral action. In general, the rationalist approach follows the Kantian-Colbergian assumption that good moral judgment and behavior are achieved primarily through the process of conscious language-based reasoning and reflection. Most famously, Kolberg emphasized language-based deliberative moral reasoning and its advancement through discussion of moral dilemmas. This approach to moral education is generally referred to as moral reasoning education that intentionally target in psychological terms the use of cold cognitive processes. According to this approach, morality is about resolving dilemmas involving competing interests of people. And the moral philosopher Edmund Pincoffs has ruthfully called this modern approach to moral education quandary ethics. The rationalist paradigm with his emphasis on moral reasoning has undergirded the traditional educational approach toward the teaching of ethics in medical schools which seek to equip physicians in training with an ethical skill set for analyzing and resolving ethical dilemmas. In contrast, the recent intuitionist paradigm, like the Aristotelian virtual approach in the medical literature, posits a different kind of moral competence, one in which moral motivation, not moral reasoning, as the central focus of character posits it to be the central focus of character education. In this approach, reasoning and deliberation remain important. Part of being a virtuous person is being able to reason in the right way about difficult and problematic situations. But intuitionist virtue theory is nevertheless a departure from quandary-based ethics, which considers moral reasoning the central psychological mechanism of moral action. Rather, intuitionist models highlight the centrality of rapid, implicit, habituated moral actions that are activated more by innate moral intuitions, emotions, and virtues than by rational deliberation. According to this paradigm, moral development is primarily about the cultivation of virtue, and this approach to moral education is generally referred to as character education, one that in psychological terms intentionally targets the hot, affective processes. In this approach, it is understood that different models of character education reflect divergent, cultural, philosophical, and or religious preferences for those virtues held to be most important. In effect, what I've introduced to you in a small nutshell is a great debate of moral psychology, namely what really motivates moral action, the head or the heart. Cold cognitions are hot, affective processes. Indeed, should medical educators be signing books more along the lines of Jerome Grootman's book, How Doctors Think, or more along the lines of Danielle Ofri's book, What Doctors Feel. To put it another way, I'll frame for you two predominant answers that have been given by moral psychologists. The first, the rationalist model. Most contemporary moral psychologists agree that any good moral psychological theory should be able to answer the question of moral motivation. In other words, it should be able to predict when a particular person in a particular situation will behave morally or prosocially. The rationalist model drawing on the philosophical heritage of Immanuel Kant would suggest that a person must first assess the eliciting situation, reason through a variety of values at stake, and then make a conscious judgment as to the correct course of behavior. Once they recognize this course and acknowledge their duty to behave morally, they draw upon an act of the will to carry out the behavior. Overall, the process is believed to draw heavily upon cold, calculated reasoning. Indeed, to the extent that affect is seen to be part of moral motivation at all, it is merely as one of the inputs into the reasoning process and it remains the job of conscious reasoning to objectively weigh its merits against other considerations. It is this model of moral decision making that serves as the basis for many professionalism and ethics courses traditionally. Learn the codes, ponder the ethical dilemmas to which they apply, deliberate over the prioritization of one or more values, make a judgment, and do the right thing. However, this theory has now received three decades of critique largely due to its inability to reliably predict actual moral behaviors and judgments. In contrast to this theory is the intuitionist model. In this model, the first step of moral decision making is not reasoning, but it is instead the triggering of a moral intuition. Moral psychologist Jonathan Haig defines a moral intuition as, quote, the sudden appearance in consciousness of an evaluative feeling, like or dislike, good, bad, disgust, admiration, about the character of or actions of a person without any conscious awareness of having gone through the steps of a search, weighing evidence, or inferring a conclusion, end quote. Such intuitions can be thought of as sort of a moral radar which scans the environment for a morally relevant stimuli and which typically bypass systems of higher level thinking. These intuitions then typically give rise to more robust moral emotions, the affect, which in turn provide the motivational force in triggering moral behaviors. Furthermore, intuitionists suggest that these moral behaviors are less like the duty bound, willed behavior of Immanuel Kant, and are more like the reflexive habituated virtues discussed by Aristotle in the virtue ethicists. In contrast to rationalist models, intuitionists suggest that it is these non-conscious moral intuitions and not reasoning that go on to trigger more judgments and further behaviors. And indeed, if reasoning is involved at all, it is usually after the fact to provide a post-talk explanation for one's moral decision making. Intuitionists would admit that while private reasoning can influence judgment under circumstances, such circumstances are both unusual and infrequent in their view. Perhaps one exception from the medical field might be the thoughtfully deliberative and reflective debates that occur on the ethics case conferences here at the University of Chicago. And yet in contrast, most of the daily decisions of the medical practitioner are of an entirely different nature, how to respond to a patient in crisis, when to slow down and spend time with the patient, when to speed up to manage the next crisis. These are fast, intuitive, relationship centered responses to patients and co-workers that occur rapidly and often without significant deliberate thought, at least on our words. Over the past 15 years, there has been a growing body of evidence to suggest that this intuitionist model explains a great deal of our moral decision making in practice. In the context of this rationalist intuitions debate, our colleague Michael Leffold has developed a moral intuitionist model for medical education. In this model, he suggests several practical implications, specifically for the teaching of medical ethics and professionalism. And this approach proposes that character development is best accomplished not so much by learning explicit rules and principles in the formal curricula. Rather, he argues that character development is best accomplished by tuning up moral intuitions, amplifying moral emotions, and strengthening moral virtues. And moral development of this sort calls for the immersion of persons in environments rich in exemplars and in narratives that embody the intuitions that persons wish to habituate. Applied to medical ethics and professionalism education, this would suggest that training programs might consider designing curricula and training experiences that intentionally target the activation and repetition of moral intuitions. This would likewise suggest that programs pay particular attention to the institutional culture in order to mitigate the insidious and often negative emotional experiences in the training environment, otherwise known as the hidden curriculum. The hidden curriculum is often perpetuated by negative role models that inhibit the experiences of positive moral emotions at work in their trainees. This would suggest that programs should consider designing practices and experiences that intentionally expose trainees to exemplars in an attempt to facilitate virtue mimesis. For example, some have argued for an educational model formation in which lives of service are created and sustained in intentional learning communities that link the lived experiences of mentors and learners with an interdisciplinary set of didactic materials. Schools which have adopted a similar model of moral formation tend to emphasize the use of narrative, the creation of a rich community of learners, both with faculty and students, and intentional reflective processes in a longitudinal curricula that foster an apprenticeship model of medical education, perhaps something similar to what's going on in Nepal. Having sketched the relevance of the rationalist intuitions debate for medical education, I therefore make the argument that this education could be enriched by the incorporation of theoretical insights and empirical findings from contemporary moral psychology. Future studies should establish the validity of this virtue-centered approach to ethics and professionals in education, and this research should explore whether character formation is indeed best accomplished by tuning up moral intuitions, amplifying moral emotions, and strengthening moral virtues. Such an approach posits that intuitions, emotions, and virtues, and not necessarily ethical principles and moral reasoning, are the central mechanisms of moral action, and therefore perhaps it could be the focus of education in medical ethics and professionalism in medical schools in the years to come. Thank you. Hi, Mary Mahowald. I guess I don't see your presentation, which I thank you for. It was very thorough and helpful, but I don't see it as an either or. Yes, I would agree. Neither do I see even both of those orientations as adequate to link between thinking and feeling, which I don't think are really separable in human beings, and action. Morality is action. Ethics is intellectual or cognitive. Teaching is a cognitive enterprise, and what really dawned on me as absent in both models is what we keep emphasizing as a community, autonomy. When I used to teach ethics even to undergraduates, sometimes I used to say, now look, you can ace this course and go out and be more of a moral scrounge than you used to be, because now you've thought about what you're doing and you choose to not do it or do it. So it seems to me either model. I guess maybe what I'm saying is maybe we can teach ethics, but we can't just teach morality or autonomy is the crucial link between what we think and feel and what we choose to do. Right. I would say I fully agree with you. I guess in some ways, when a dominant paradigm is sort of occupied by the educational curricula for many years, sometimes the other paradigm that tries to also offer critique tends to be overshadowing. But in any case, I would agree with you. In some ways, there are folks who are trying to bridge the two perspectives together rather than see it as either or, but at both end. I'm just curious about whether educators in their particular medical schools feel that a particular paradigm is sort of shaping their curricula. That would be interesting to know. I would guess that perhaps the rationalist paradigm tends to be at least historically shaping the curricula. But I would agree with you. I think in my clinical ethics training here, I felt like I was getting both perspectives. So that's just sort of something that I've been noticing. But I appreciate that observation. Yeah. Excuse me. Thanks for the clear articulation of the position. And I'm going to leave aside concerns I have about the idea that character is something stable people have because that's just assumed for the talks. I'll let it go. But my concern is actually about sort of even if we adopt the sort of Aristotelian character perspective, Aristotle is very clear about how moral education is important, which I think you're emphasizing. But he wants, he argues that it has to start at a young age, which is something I think we have lots of evidence for, is that in order for this character to develop, the moral education starts with the community at a very young age. And since we're talking about people who are in their 20s typically, by the time they're there, is there a question of, is it too late? That is, if the character hasn't been developed by then, is there even really an opportunity to develop character in this time span given where it sits in the life plan? And so, you know, I don't know, I guess I wonder how you'd respond to that. Well, you highlighted the, I guess the key holy grail question in medical education like this, you know, can character change in medical school? My reading of the literature is that there's sort of a general assumption that it doesn't change. So all we can do is sort of change professional behaviors, alter attitudes a bit, but not necessarily get at character. I don't, I'm curious to hear what other people think. Can adults change? I mean, is that an ethical question or is that from a different period of discipline that we should be talking about this, but. Hi, Dan Broadney, University of Chicago. John, thanks for a lovely talk. I think what puzzled me about it, and I just hoped you'd say more, is that I would have thought both Kant and Aristotle would be on the character side of the dichotomy, but they would have different visions of what a person of good character would be like. And this may have relevance to the previous question. For Kant, it would not, good character, although there's currently debate in the literature about this, but it was standardly thought that a Kantian person of good character doesn't require a set of affective characteristics, but does require a settled commitment of the reason to act out of respect for the moral law. And this is something that presumably could be done lightning fast. They don't need to go through each time a long bit of celebration. And what would count as a good character is someone whose will is of a certain kind and reliably always of a certain kind. Whereas Aristotle does demand something more robust in terms of having certain kinds of feelings, certain kinds of responses, and so forth. And so that's for him the difference between someone who is merely, as he puts it, continent and someone who's really virtuous. But each thinker is, in their different ways, focusing on the thought that what's crucial is to be a person of good character. And so I would sort of think that those who want to develop physicians of good character need to try to specify as the content of a good character what they mean by that. And that would go to the issue of whether what counts on this view of a good character is the sort of thing that can still be taught to 20-somethings. Well, since I would say everything that I know about Kant and Aristotle came from you, since you're my teacher, I'll just defer to that and appreciate that observation. Just to say that if I were to summarize maybe how I feel about the whole moral psychology literature, it seems to me that people are more likely to say that moral psychology, I mean, more reasoning can be taught to a certain extent, but more intuitions are more caught than taught. So I have like a hundred questions buzzing around in my head. I'm wondering about the role of larger narratives rather than the case studies in the kind of education you're talking about. And if I don't think Aristotle was this pessimistic about adults being changed, and that's probably the reason he spent so much time talking about friendship and things like that. But I wonder about things like not just mentors, but narrative display and how that would work out. And I'm also wondering about some of the thinking and virtue that emotions are actually themselves judgments of fact, or at least partially that that's partially what they are, it's their judgments of fact. And so that emotions are changeable, educational, educatable, because they are at least in part judgments about what's happening. And so that would at least suggest that adult education is possible, even if it's slower than childhood education. So I wonder about all that stuff, but I also would just wonder, does some of this then suggest that these criteria should be part of the mission process? That is that we're looking more seriously at the character of people who are admitting and the formability of their character. Those are good points. In terms of the admissions process, I don't think I would qualify to say whether emotional intelligence should be part of the admissions criteria, but I appreciate your thoughts. I'll probably have to talk to you afterwards in the conversation. Thank you very much.


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There's an art to fitting a sail horse. So I've come to two of the best in our business, Justin Cunningham from Weatherford, Texas and Melanie Smith from White's Bottle. Welcome. Justin, I'll start with you. How many horses would you fit every year? I think the numbers last year were like 175. And they're all yearlings? Yes, sir. A couple of broodmires. Right. And Mel, how many do you guys fit here at Solo, silly? Well, we'll sell close to 1,000 a year, but we will probably fit from start to finish maybe a hundred a year. A lot of them come to us ready. We'll sell them fit and ready. When would you advise owners to send a horse? I would like, you would like them preferably. You can do a ton in 45 days, but to really do a great job, I think you need 60 to, I mean, 120 as a really long time, I feel, but 90 days would be ideal. A horse turns up, Mel, to your place, and let's say the sale is in 50 days. What's the first week of their schedule, I guess? We would, let's just say you get one that is a little long-haired out of the pasture, okay? We want to sell in 50 days. We would start with the day they get here. I say power pack, but when we tube them with EPM medicine, it actually has warmer in it. So a lot of times if that looks like it's gonna go ahead and make them start turning loose with their hair and all that, that's all we'll do. And then if we feel like that we need additional worvings, then we will run that full power pack through. But we will do that, and we will transition them from grass hay to alfalfa over a couple of days usually. They usually take that pretty good. It's the grain that you can get in a bind on, that if you just throw it to them, sometimes they'll tie up or they just call, you know, whatever it may be. So we will get them on that alfalfa first and start adding that grain and bathe them in hot water is a good way to start getting their coats laid down. When you put that, the blanket and slinky on them, that starts encouraging that hair to come off, you know, when they have that. So we put them, we have a pretty strict protocol. What hand do you normally start to look at putting slinkies or shapes and nice things on? So the winter months are different to me, you know, or when it comes in the summer and it's going into cool, it's not as, it's frigid to me, you know, you have to be real careful. So I try around 60, I start putting the slinkies on, but then it just depends on how tight your barn is, like my barn isn't as tight as this barn. So then you put your slinkies on a little different and then once they're really on. What about the slinky, if it's a full body and can you just rub the mine out? The biggest thing is making sure you have one that's big enough. If you put, and slinkies, I feel like if you're not used to sizing them, you want to order a medium for your quarter horse and it's going to be too small, probably. We would almost always use largest and extra-largest too and also making sure that if you're a horse, to me, like when they're just standing there, if that neck part is tight on their main just standing there, that slinky's too small. Like it should be a little loose so that way when they put their head down, it is maybe tight-ish, you know, but if they're just standing there like this and it's clean to the top of their main, it's going to rub some of their main out. It's too small. Yeah. So. What is the secret to a nice producing a very thick and healthy mane and tail? I think contrary to popular belief, people thinking, the less you brush them or maintain them or take care of them, or, you know, you just leave them alone, which I don't, like I feel like you're going to pull less out. If you- When I say your tail is up, we braid it, have a little deal, we'll re-loop it through itself and wrap it. So it's pretty clean when we take it out of that, but we still will do it once a week. So we pull all that out, shampoo and condition it with warm water, let it completely dry. Like it has to be completely dry. Know not what at all. And then we'll go through and braid their mane. And when you do their mane, you have to make sure that it's not too tight at the top or they're going to rip it out. It's a little like that, slinky. Like if they're just standing there like- And Justin, you and your father, Bob, have a very good reputation of thoroughbred business. So you would have learned a lot of this from pin-hooking and also just prepping horses for thoroughbred business? Yeah, cause I helped him. We helped vet year-lands to go to the sales in Keeneland and stuff. So a different discipline, but the same common denominators for fitting a horse, do you think, a thoroughbred? Yeah, but just- To me, I guess it would just be about the amount of feet, like your concentrated feed per, like those horses need more in general cause they just burn it up so fast to me. But it's just your exercise, what you decide on your exercise program. Well, and I think the round pen's a little like how he says that they walk the thoroughbred so that they have probably confidence in their steps that they know kind of about, that sounds funny, but walking in a straight line when people want to view them, no different than the round pen, like when we would go to Justin's to look at year-lings, we want to see them in the round pen. We don't want to see them on the walker. We don't get a whole lot out of seeing them in a stall. We want to see them in the round pen. So it's a process for those cults to learn to travel in the round pen. And there's a lot of horses, in my opinion, at the sales that don't probably bring what they should have because people that don't understand how to work a yearling in the round pen have been working them. So A, they don't know about taking their leads both ways. They don't travel good around there. They're a little scared going in there because they- So let's get on to the very debatable topic of nutrition and diet because I'm sure this is everyone who's got an own personal opinion. What do you like to do for your yearlings? Well, we do our alfalfa, which I honestly think the alfalfa is probably the single most important thing. Like, we can grain all we want. And there's a lot of different grain that I think is equally as strong between brands. I think that there's a lot of good products. But the bottom line is if you have bad alfalfa, your horses aren't gonna look good. So in my opinion, it starts with the alfalfa getting good, leafy, horse quality alfalfa. And that's hard to find right now and it's double hard to afford because it's high, you know? So if you cheat on the alfalfa, it's, I mean, I don't know what Justin thinks of this, but I think if you cheat on the alfalfa, your grain isn't gonna make that big difference. If you have a good alfalfa, that's when your grain is gonna come in and make the extra difference.  You know, we would, I would say count on our alfalfa more than our grain, but Justin does a lot more like chemist work with his grain and his supplements and all that than we do. We rely more on my house at our alfalfa. So just different ways of doing it. So Justin, just let us know about your chemistry. Say what formula. So the alfalfa like start, I mean, that's number one and then they need it. I try to keep something in front of them all day long unless they're just.


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Alrighty, let's play this through once here. There's sound So as I was emailing you I like the idea of someone screen testing and Because of that you have the license to overact because he's just a bad actor The the what I was saying here that I wasn't a massive fan of the sound like generally I'm a fan of using sound effects because it's kind of it's not done enough usually just lip-sync with with Someone saying a line. So I do like that. I would probably just take this out I'm thinking if you have this in there, I'm gonna wait for something very Tarantino-esque Not there has to be any violence in there But something with very specific dialogue and and interesting, you know, it's big gestures and hand movements and something like that I don't there's something that comes with that name. I would just take that out and I would just probably do Where is this here somewhere where you can change in your in your clapper here like screen test or something Now because you have green screen. There's something where I thought, hmm What we could probably do something more also in terms of contrast and performance So I'm not sure if my drawings are gonna be clear, but this is kind of what I meant when I was emailing you So what if you take the sound out and this could be This I know I was saying like since there's room here You could have kind of a robot in there and I'm thinking very old school This is weird head and it could be springs, you know, something with springs And you got all buttons there and maybe there's some wheels and you're like very very bad animatronic type of thing and to me it's more like he is kind of a Kind of like a space man because got his ray gun and it's kind of his his overacted Oh, there is there is this villain next to me and I need to shoot it or there's just some line You can you can make this where it's it's an action thing or maybe it's there They're almost friends like that's his his bodyguards type of robot and he's there and they're kind of looking You can have his hand on him. They're doing something together So I mean, I don't want to dictate the acting choices, but something where it's an overacted almost sci-fi-esque Type of thing he says his line Maybe he's looking over here and then he waits because he realizes wait. Why is the robot not?  So meaning that he is overacting. He is in this environment. It's very cheesy old school You know sci-fi type of thing with where they're gonna comp in some cheesy backgrounds paper backgrounds and stuff But what I'm basically what I'm saying about my rambling note here is that I'm thinking of he is in one acting mode Which is over the top old school with his ray gun Oh, we got to do something and then he realizes why is the robot not doing something and robot could just have very Slight movements and some blinking lights then he breaks character goes. Oh, what's going on again? Turns around has this angry look and then maybe you know knocks knocks on to the the hull of the robot it's been this very Very frustrated like ah, why are you not working me a little bit of a punch It could be a little bit of a kick with his foot and then because This is what I was saying because of like those springs with his weird head again Make it like super super Again this could be wheels so that he just kind of turns in why like a y-rotation just kind of moves around So it's very cheap looking and after his kick with the leg or or punch or whatever he does with his arms or legs There could be You know, there could be a panel or something in there that that opens up and and the and the thing breaks So imagine I'm gonna change this again with my horrible drawings, but imagine and suddenly malfunctions and the wheels buckle and It falls to the ground because of that you have a nice drag on the head and that goes door the arms go dooring and Stuff breaks and you know panels open with burning more springs and stuff coming out and their bigger piece that comes out Damn that hits him on the head Don't turn the sound off and then you still have this Where he gets hit But it's not slapsticky it's more him and you can have a funny Fainting type of thing where it falls this way or he turns around a 180 or something and still falls this way That's the end of the shot And the reason I'm saying this because I would this seems all one note Like there's a clap and then he yells he yells shooting And fall apart from maybe this moment here It's just there's constant sound and energy and to me there's not that much contrast and he doesn't do much besides Going into different poses and then falling so it's almost more of a Pose body mechanic shop, and I'm again. You can absolutely ignore everything I said my thought is just how can we make this? Where there's more thought process in the character While retaining your idea and not scrapping everything so the overacting aspect would still be there with him You know however he is in his in his thing where he has his ray gun or whatever And he does this cheesy looking around me. You could even have some cheesy Rocks and props here in the back and they're just going to fill in you know Like a planet whatever in blue screen or green screen as you will imagine this But he does his overacting Then stops and has a complete change of acting where first he was acting now It's real and I just annoyed that his cheap prop partner is malfunctioning So that thought process like a gear change type of thing would be already more interesting to me Then you can have a 180 turn so interesting mechanics And how does he turn is it a slow turn because this is the hundredth time this has happened And he is just so frustrated that it's the slow simmering rage build-up turn where he looks and the face gets And then he finally kicks him where it's almost like this bringing up the reel of Gherm's demo reel here with where you look at I'm gonna leave the sound on but look at the The chef's build of an explosion So that type of thing of where he goes And then explodes and even the head turns Red different moment or am I imagining this I am imagining this maybe Maybe maybe not anyway that explosion there So that's what I'm imagining where he has his overacting change race just disappointed thought process Gear change turns around with his build-up and then finally either it's a punch or a kick and Then because things fall apart again emphasizing how cheap this is things hit him and then you still have a fall Right, so it's still a fall that you can do so I'm not you know eliminating everything that you did So that is my thought process that could be fun to do you have more range You can absolutely overact and do some horrible acting on purpose And then you can show the switch where it's more natural and an actual real Performance and then back into I can also show body mechanics and physics of hierarchy falls and when he falls I wouldn't do this Land where besides the kind of a really twin pose there Funny how both are so so Rotate it up there, but this feels like it's peeling onto the surface like Where I will make this more Like a bit of a bit more of a bouncing and some more complexities in that in that drop But that's it that is my thought and you can even potentially keep this you can just make this white Make this white with a cool red belt and maybe red boots and you can just have I don't know Something you can a red patches me like you can you can still have a cool outfit Maybe like a red shirt underneath so have this very bold colors cheesy outfit I mean you could almost add a bit of a hat with a little bit of a Spring and the thing so there's a spring and there's a spring here mimics this but then you have a lot of interesting Right, you know secondary action stuff there on on some overlapping and bouncy Spring Prop accessory type of thing. Anyway, that's me rambling. That's my thought on this shot and Then you have this one. So again, let's play this which I thought was really cool Cuz every now and then I thought the timing could be tweaked a bit and then the end pose So if you come in here, dude, dude, it's almost like Since you are so stylized I wish you would hold This moment I be careful with your spacing to your you're starting to ease in a bit But then you got this this pop forward and then this freeze here and then that I would watch out watch out for the spacing It's a bit more he you know Explodes up has more of a hold and then out but speaking of hold I would probably have a moment through there where I would hold something like this maybe for a frame or two more I know this is picky, but just a frame or two, but since he comes in It could have been what took to a bit of a snappy to hold out their timing And I will probably come out With more broader poses and hold them a bit longer and then snap into this Only because we are stuck in this not so great silhouette here where there's an overlap and there are also connections there Where I could try to put this a bit more Silhouetted even this you could probably push this arm forward a bit more. I know it's like trying some pushed Silhouettes there even through here to get a bit more negative space in this guy That being said right after this There's something Yeah, we're feeling like a little bit more of a hold there just a little bit and then the jump is too fast So he comes into this it's a bit tricky because That's all cool. I wish there was something where He stops and then here we have You can almost have one leg here and then somehow Find another leg room for the leg back there, and I'm cheating a bit with my drawing and then We're getting ready with arms and not having arms either arms back there on This I don't feel like we can get a bit of a stronger silhouette there But then the thing is that this seems too fast Yeah, I feel like you want to go just add a couple more frames to this there's something that feels too Too poppy also watch out Probably as you swing so quickly forward You can look at the body here here here Bam, and then it just locks even if you lock it. I would have a bit of overshoot on the head Because it seems more like a hiccup because you're stopping but then you're continuing here And then I would I would give this one more frame of a full extension on the leg here And then extend this leg out for cleaner silhouette You only have one frame of full extension every back to being bent I think that's where it would help you to give this a frame or two For all of this again as I watch this It just seems there's something fast, and it's almost I Don't know how you can do this. I don't want to destroy your shop But it's almost as if you want this here So it's not just bam, but it's Something like this Where there's a feeling of of whole So you have a bit of a that's the feeling right? Right now it's just something I know this I know it doesn't make sense but the feel is that it's so straight and with a sudden turn and given that you have all those Nice lines, and we're looking at you know lots of Curvature in your posing. I'm feeling that there's something we can do in the In the path as well to reflect that right now it feels like that's okay And then it's very straight and then back into Into you know nicer curvature flow and pass so Yeah, there's something where this just feels too fast and by adding two frames. I'm curious if you add more frames I'd say two frames to all of this Where you just change your your spacing a bit and this could be potentially maybe not going as far here And maybe I'm not sure if you add more poses how this will look like where it's just it's just a slow straight line And that's why I'm imagining you might have to move it over to give this more room to add more time But then to add to that curvature. I mean he is He's doing this right so then you have That type of feel and then here what I would do is you Do this in a in a tight curve here, right? That's all cool And then he goes out and there's something where to me you almost want like to me at least I would stretch this and almost wait a bit and Then get into the bent legs And I know if you need to add one more frame or you can You can break this up a bit because then you have a stretch here And the reason why I'm saying this because when I watch this in real time What I'm seeing here is That's around the shape that he's in and when he goes back down. It's again kind of the same the same shapes Size and I'm looking at what if you go? Jump into this where this is fast and the shape is small So there's there's less friction in the air and there's faster travel Possibilities there, but then he holds a bit here And then he wants to go row with that big swing up and there's something to me visually where I feel like we could stretch this more again because of the sudden speed up and then You can go up there. I know that you're squashing for a For a stretch here, but to me this feels like this would work if there is maybe a flatter wall And then he's pushing himself off if that makes sense versus Versus a swing if you would do this then to me it would be a swing like this where he he contract and squashes to then Stretch out to get somewhere But again, this feels just like a swing up that goes directly to that new target And that's why I feel like we could do through there even we can start elongating and then you can always get smaller Into this Again, I think that pauses good there Even through here, I feel like we can Here there's something where we're coming off of here I feel like we want to do one more pose Where this is your origin and the point the foot still points at origin you can still have that other leg here and Then you get into this higher thing and that's still just like here on this jump I feel like we can exaggerate and hold this here ease into this section a bit more to then snap down into this and What could we do here? I think once you get to here. I feel like this is always the same Pose and no arms are changing a little bit especially through here other than that the upper body feels a bit similar there Yeah, it was a bit fast I Feel like you want to do Lands like this I mean you might explore Not that you want to go into spider Spider-man territory since it's not a spider-man shock, but where he could do this With that hold here and change posture and then do a reverse C curve there where then he gets into You know where something is suddenly a bit more like that so that he would land Foot first to or leg first in my horrible drawing, right? So it's kind of the legs are cushioning that impact the boom and then that's so that's first And then the body comes down into this pose I'm only saying this just because that might force a character to change direction here Which give this more of a silhouette change because I'm kind of reacting to this so that being the same for so long Then the other thing the last thing is that after all of this right all of this energy of You Then it's okay So, I don't know if that's planned if you want that casual contrast Of all this action suddenly, huh? But I don't know for some reason I was expecting after this to do kind of a push-off Where he arms are stretched out Shoulders down head looking up, you know pushed off and it's just any lands there With a bit of a one to bounce Action and then he he is you know, I know there's something where He's more standing there like like a superhero But this is this seems to me it just comes out of nowhere. This is weird I wouldn't say emotional change out there This is a crazy emotional shot But there's something where the feeling and energy is all my action and then it's all like all right I don't know how you do it type of thing So personally I would tweak it like that Like I said where it's kind of a Jump up and a pound like a nice nice energetic athletic bounce and then he has a cool pose at the end that's more kind of a you know, like puffy chest out stretched out leg Where it's just more of a hero pose and arms back and not that my pose is great, but that that's kind of the Feeling that I have for the end of the shot, which of course you can totally disagree. It's your shot But these are just my thoughts. All right. Thank you All right, there's an email you can sign up you can start whenever you want you can submit whatever you want You get 16 submissions either way like and subscribe would be awesome. All right. Thank you


Oh Man doesn't look great, you know a shout out to Enterprise that dropped me off so I didn't have to uber. That was great, but uh Let's give you guys what you've been waiting for. There it is guys. What you guys think of the wheels? Looks good man. It looks like it didn't even happen boom Yeah, could I saw it the other day and I was just like damn y'all did they just like swap it out? Looks good, man. That's a really hard color to match to yeah the reason why that color doesn't have any variations in it So most colors let's just say for instance red blue yellow. There's 10 different blues 15 different reds, you know this in the In the software for everything that mixes the colors. There's no variation of it So it's only that one singular color so you can't play with it You can't make it you can't make it darker on the computer. You got to do it by hand. So you spray it out See if it matches remix spray it out. See if it matches remixes. It's a tough one to pick Thank God, there's no metallic in it. That would have made it even harder. Wow. Yeah As you can see guys, this is where the damage was and basically rear bumper and driver quarter repair We'll swap down hubs painted I really the hubs that it looks awesome Appreciate that it'll be so much easier to clean it now. Yeah You got that nice pop from white caliper to black of the black wheel Yeah, the hub and the wheel match pretty much perfect and as far as like satin Yeah, the sheen of it. Yeah, I like it man. You did you did a damn good job, man The other wheels they weren't as wide, right? No, no, no. Yeah, these are three 15s in the back. I had two 75 in the back So it's 275 up front and then three 15 in the back. So you took your spacers when you grab the other wheel Yeah, yeah, you might be able to still put them on. I mean really I Don't I forget how wide it was, but you might be able to play with it I mean, yeah, at least, you know, put it on and try it out. Yeah, I Think it's fairly flush right now. Yeah I mean, you might be able to squeeze a little bit of extra earth down there, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, I Like these walls better now that I'm looking at it. Yeah, yeah Yeah, I think it I think it gives the car more of a good look Are these not a stock option wheel? Um, they're replicas So there is Dodge does make a wheel that looks like that. Got it.  The these are what you call German spun forage. So these are actually lighter than the stock wheels and they're and they're stronger Yeah, so I'm hoping that a transfer well when I Put the power down But yeah, I Yeah, but yeah, man, you did an awesome job, man Yeah, then I also saw that um, you was able to I guess address that issue I was talking about We clean it up. It's really tough with this because if I get too involved with it, what happens is it starts to turn white It'll start to lose color Okay, I see it's tough because it's not like clear coat where clear coat I can remove You know, so if there's a water spot or a scratch, I can remove clear coat From the surface to remove that spot or that that scratch on this I can't the further I go into it Yeah, the more it loses its color. I see it's tough. Yeah all the plastic Everything all the way around it's something. Keep that stuff really really tight Well, if you guys want your car looking like this, just be sure to hit up my guy anthony a first class detailer, man Yeah, man this uh The car looks better than it came in honestly Yeah, me too, what you guys think of the new girth I'm staggered now I'm 10 and a half in the back 9 and a half in the front 315s in the back right here 275 up front Wacking the stance on it What's going on guys at paul's house? Once again, shout out to uh sinice daytona On instagram travis appreciate the wheels. We swap wheels You know, they look amazing man. Everybody's liking them. I broke a couple necks on the way over here It was great man as you can see It's a mo par situation right now You know, we got No mo pars over here Check that out right there see that Mo par situation man. We're just chilling, you know right now. We uh, you know, it's just been a long day So, you know, I'm just hanging out with some friends and uh You know, let's go check out some of the cars real quick. We got fast miles dorango we got a Straight up mo par from instagram make sure you go follow You got paul's nasty bag charger right here. Look at the stance on that thing man. We got savage 392 underscore 392 forgive me Looking pretty good line-ups looking pretty good right here Yeah, man looking really good man. We're just chilling. I didn't get to show you guys You know the stance on this car. I'm probably going to remove the uh The uh the mud guards because they're kind of useless now And it just hides how thick these wheels are.    Should look good Did this thing man I'll put his description I mean, I'll put his information on the screen and also in the description as well Yeah, man. This looks great Yeah, guys, this is the end of this video. My name is jordan. I'm modern day muscle I'm also Yeah, guys, this is the end of this video. My name is jordan. This is modern day muscle You know, please subscribe also hit the like button and comment and share I would greatly appreciate that I'm modern day underscore muscle on instagram It's gonna pop up on the screen. I'll catch you guys in the next video