Thank you everyone for joining us in person and for everyone who's joining us online. We are really thrilled to have you here. Welcome to the master class in activism, a conversation on social justice activism in the digital age, hosted by the Center for Racial Justice at the Gerald R. Ford School of Public Policy at the University of Michigan. I am Mara Cecilia Asfeld. I'm the research director here at the Center for Racial Justice. At the Ford School and at the Center for Racial Justice, we seek a world in which people are able to achieve their full human potential, regardless of race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, class, and other categories that have been used to divide and systematically marginalize people. We train leaders here who understand the critical role of public policy in improving our world. We recognize the power of public policy to bolster or undercut our life opportunities and experiences. And we see policy analysis as a critically important tool for us to measure, reflect, and historically examine and help us define the way we move forward. As we examine the fraught histories and consequences of some of our policies and the transformative power of others, we learn a valuable lesson. Effective and just public policy can only be achieved if we bring together diverse perspectives to the table. Today we have the great honor and privilege of hosting a masterclass in activism conversation with Chloe Cheyenne and Dr. Christian Davenport on social justice activism in the digital age. A little bit about each of our amazing speakers today, Chloe Cheyenne is a tech innovator who is passionate about social change. She graduated from the Howard University School of Business Honors program in 2013 and quickly received a job offer at Google. After spending some time working there, she decided to venture out and form her own company, Community X, the social network for social change. Community X connects like-minded change makers to take collective action on issues they care about. It's an app that addresses the gap between information and action by creating a space where people can talk about real issues that matter and mobilize people to actually do something about them all in one space. Since creating this innovative space, Chloe has earned major accolades such as Forbes 30 under 30 and Black Enterprises 40 under 40. Community X has been covered by a wide range of outlets including Forbes, Cheddar, MSNBC, Fast Company, Apple News, Black Enterprise and a million more, far more than I can list in this brief intro. So we are so grateful to have you here today, Chloe. Moderating today's panel is Christian Davenport, a professor of political science at the University of Michigan as well as a faculty associate at the Center for Political Studies and a research center at the Peace Research Institute in Oslo. His research primarily focuses on political conflict such as human rights violations, genocide, torture, political surveillance, civil war and social movements. He is the author of a million articles, again far more than I can list, and six incredible books including two of my favorites, How Social Movements Die published by Cambridge University Press and Media Bias, Perspective and State Repression, The Black Panther Party, also published by Cambridge University Press. So we are really okay with having you here too. He's like a brother to me so you can make fun of him as much as you want over the course of this panel. Quick note on how this will proceed, we're going to turn it over to Chloe and Christian to have a conversation. We'll then open it up to some comments and questions and then we'll spill out into a really nice little reception in the lobby outside. So please join me in welcoming Christian and Chloe. Hello everybody. So let's kind of dive in a little bit but as many people might think of activism and kind of engagement and advocacy in specific ways, how do you think of activism generally and then specifically this idea of digital activism, how would you kind of characterize or define that? I would say well as far as activism, I would say that firstly activists are descendants of revolutionaries and so in that sense activists pretty much work within the systems that exist today in order to try and create change. And what was the second part of it? So part of your hook, part of the interest is on digital activism. So how would you conceptualize or define for folks that aren't familiar with it the idea of digital activism? How do you think of that? Well I think pretty much everyone here at this point is familiar with online activism because a lot of it happens through existing social media platforms. It really started on Twitter during uprisings in the Middle East like years ago and then trickled over to Instagram, Facebook and other platforms. So yeah I'm sure everybody here is familiar with that and how people are trying to use existing platforms to advocate and build awareness around certain causes. So yeah. Okay so let me ask the kind of like what kind of activists are you type of question right? So some activists are concerned with like completely transforming something, some are more reformist in orientation but then also some focus on politics in particular, some focus on economics, some focus on social cultural issues. How would you characterize what it is you work on? I mean yes I would call myself an activist but that's not my ultimate goal. I don't think like I would like to ultimately do something that is revolutionary. I don't want to continue to stay in this activist lane because I don't think that it's enough. But how do I define myself in this current state as an activist? I mean we work in tech so as a tech activist but as a platform we're agnostic to all causes so we support hundreds of causes and internationally. So as far as like focusing on a specific movement or effort we don't do that. We try and support as much as we can. I mean to give some sense of the range. So Chloe and I first come across one another when Paul was just a beginner who was basically kidnapped from Texas, taken to Rwanda. The daughters and myself and a bunch of other people from around the world were trying to get Paul out and so we connected with Chloe and her app and technique and her group in order to try to figure out exactly how to work that particular thing. So the range of causes that they work on is quite large and so I wanted to give some sense of that orientation as we were thinking about stuff. The master class concept is partly a way of kind of like reflecting on change makers and change making but I think one thing that we kind of also are curious about in many respects is this idea of the path to change making and change makers. So I think in the social movement literature we might think of this as kind of like nature or nurture, right? Some just have a predisposition towards rebelliousness, right? There's a great Dave Chappelle episode where he's basically making a comment that he's like a chronic dissenter or you have this nurturing kind of element like if you think of Malcolm X being born to parents that are part of the Garry movement and then subsequently he becomes aware of all these other movements and then he becomes an activist or some kind of combination or some precipitous event or circumstance but what would describe your pathway to activism? Yeah, for me I definitely had no choice. I'm from Chicago, south side of Chicago and it's, you know, my family's direct experiences that led me to do what I'm doing today.  My dad was getting ready to work a night shift and Chicago police raided my grandmother's town home and opened fire on him over 12 times and as they further searched my grandmother's home they realized that they had the wrong address and it was a case of mistaken identity. They planted drugs in my grandmother's home in an effort to cover up the mistake they realized they made, did not call an ambulance and physically assaulted my dad as he was bleeding to death in the hallway of my grandmother's home. My mom was hiding and was able to rush him to the nearest hospital which thankfully had a trauma unit and the doctors there, although very skeptical, agreed to operate on him and ended up stabilizing him and saving his life but yeah, for the first 12 years of my life I was like, we was taking my dad to rehab where he was learning how to walk again, regain all of his motor skills and taking him to trial where he was facing 20 years in prison for something that he didn't do and then throughout that time, at that time I lost two cousins to gun violence both under the age of 21, my uncle was also gunned down on his front doorstep by Chicago police and so yeah, the interactions that my family has had with the police and prison systems have not been great and they definitely had an extreme effect on my childhood and as a result developed the way I think and the way I relate to the world. I'm not going to lie, I was supposed to switch lives, so that's my dad and that's my grandma, yeah. And then this is one of my cousins who we lost a few years ago in the city, so... No, that's all good? I think, so like you describe that and I'm like, it seems like that's an incredibly important inflection point, right? But from that point you could become a healthcare worker, you could become a lawyer, you could say I won't become a cop because I want to stop this from happening so it seems like the choice activists, I'm curious, did you consider these other options or for you it was kind of clear something's wrong, I wish to intervene into something and that needs to be done in some uninstitutionalized, non-straightforward, non-sanction kind of pattern that involves kind of like activism, was that clear to you then? No, because the whole time, while all this was happening and while I was being raised by my parents and my grandma, like again, we're from Chicago, so Elijah Muhammad is a really controversial person but was very close with my family, my grandma was giving me close signs. For those that might not know, please explain who he is, you just presume everyone knows. I'm like, how many people know who Elijah Muhammad is? Right. Less than half. So I'm like, you know. Someone else should explain. What? Yeah, audience, tap in. Leader of the Nation of Islam prior to Malcolm X. Right. So, yeah, giving me books about Malcolm X, like talking about Bobby Seale, so like, this is like, you know, who my family is and so, yeah, it was never even a thought for me to be like, oh yeah, I'm going to join the system to fight the system. Like, that wasn't it for me, so. Okay. And so was the problem that you thought that kind of needed addressing and the thing that you wanted to change? Was it specifically police violence, state violence more broadly? Was it conflict in society? What was that problem set that you saw, the things that you wanted to address? It started out as like, police and prisons and like, you know, education system. And then when I went to, you know, university and then went to go work for Google, everything just evolved. And, you know, now again, we don't focus on one thing specifically. We just try and help as many people as we can. Okay, hold it before we have the jump. So we go from police violence to Google. So I'm thinking police violence, sociology, or police violence, political science, maybe loosely defined. We don't really study police violence or police activity. But explain that move from interest and concern with police violence to Google, just to be clear with trajectory. Yeah, as much as it is clear, right? It's just like, some things just happen, but I don't think that was the case.  And I'm like, okay, first of all, like, I am the least smart person in this room. I already know this, like, all y'all are like, amazing. So yeah, it makes sense to me, but I'll try and explain it. I did not work with Google. I don't know what you're talking about, but yes. I mean, yeah, so like I went to Howard. I went to Howard because it was my only option. My mama told me, you'll go to community college. And my grandma told me she was like, you can do much better than that. And I just didn't know how. So one of my advisors, like, had me apply and I ended up getting like a full ride and just going. I'd never been to DC before. I just went. And then from there, I was just like hustling on campus, like meeting every recruiter, like going to every info session, like being there, sitting in the front, like just really hustling because I knew I could not go back. Were you doing student activism while you were at Howard? Yes. Okay. What kind of stuff? My freshman year, I got there and I was in the school of business and we had like an honors program or whatever. And I got the school to like invest in creating this like community service director role, which they have, I don't know why, but they didn't have it. So I got them to invest in creating that. And I was like, well, like, can I be the first person in that role? And they were like, you know, had us do this whole election thing, but we did that. And so I did that for like three years. And then by my senior year, I was the president of the school. Yeah. Okay. And it gave me the Google. So as I said, I was like, recruiters would come on campus and I would be like hounding them and following up with them and, you know, just like. And you just so happened to have some computer skills that landed you on Google. Or maybe I'm holding Google in too high esteem. And it's just like, I imagine it's just this creative incubator of intelligence and innovation. And they're looking for like, it's like Top Gun, they're looking for like the people who can like help generate a tremendous amount of money for them or something. And then they bring them to campus and then they show them all the wondrous things that maybe I saw the Steve Jobs movie too many times, but I'm just like, I just have a. I think that's what happens when you're like too smart. Like, I hope no one here does. That because I think that's what happens when you're like way too smart. Like you start looking at things and like over complicating it or like thinking about it like way too deeply like like my the way my grandma raised me like, I don't look at things through that lens. Like I look at things and I'm like, oh yeah, I could do that truthfully. I'm going to be honest. Like when I when I'm like the Google recruiter, I treated her like anybody else because I was like cool Google, whatever. Like I need a job. You know what I mean? So but I tried hard for every job that I applied to. But yeah, I didn't really look at it like that.  Like I did all of the things I was supposed to do to have the resume to be considered. And then yeah, I just kept following up with her until she like gave me the opportunity. So with an eye to building the digital activism start stuff. Were you thinking digital activism? No, not even. I was not thinking about anything like that. When I was still in college, I was like, again, I need a job.  So no, I didn't start thinking about that until I got to Google, like a year and so part of my reason for kind of like pushing in this domain is a lot of the social movement literature characterizes activists and social movement organizations as being incredibly instrumental with regards to how they think about what they're doing. They're thinking about, OK, what are the objectives I'm trying to achieve? What are the what's the repertoire of activities I have available to me? What resources or particular predispositions do I have to kind of use these particular tactics? How who can I recruit? Where can I find some youth to manipulate? How can I use some marketing things? So it's very it's very instrumental. What we forget in many respects is this human connection, this element of opportunism, this element of just happened to be in a spot for something to take place and then proceeding with it. But OK, now we're at Google. Yeah, activism. So how do we get back to activism? We get back to activism because, shoot, I was working there. I was I was there from the time the doors open until they would like kick me out the office like. And yeah, I was like doing all the amenities to like I was like doing the massages and like I was eating every meal on campus and like riding the bikes and all that stuff, too. But I was working really hard and I gave like so much to that organization that it just couldn't sit right with me that after I did all that and like my peers who like we only made up one percent of the company or less than one percent of the company, but we was still there and we was still like giving our all. It just didn't sit right with me that like even after all that. Like even even after like all we did, like that people around us could be like looking at that image of like Mike Brown laying in the street and be like, it's so what's for lunch. You know what I mean? It was just.  It's like less than point two percent of people that are like women and women of color that actually get venture capital to go and start companies. It's, you know, it's not an HBC. Yeah. So, um, yeah. But that's how because that happened and people were just so easily to like move beyond it and move past it. And once I saw that, I was like, boom, like we're not just going to sit here. And so I just started mobilizing people across the company. So that was the start of the end of my career.  You pull people out of Google with you. No, I tried doing I mobilized people internally first. Yeah, to do what? We was trying to do anything at that point. Honestly, like get them to make a donation, get them to make a statement, get them to do all of the most basic things that that any company should do in a moment like that. And yeah, like we built a team of like basically almost every like black and brown Googler, like across the company. And we were having meetings like weekly, just trying to think of different programming and all these different things that we could do. And ultimately, like some of it got done. They ended up making like some type of donation. The group for Google. It's Sergei, Sergei and Larry. But yeah, it didn't end well. I want to ask about that. OK, so OK, so so you're in you're nested within Google with a variety of individuals who have been shaken as many people in the country and around the world from police violence. And how is Google responding to you? Well, that's what I mean. If you talk about that, OK, that's what I mean. Yeah, the company response was just really poor. David Drummond was still the who's that? So it's like Elijah Muhammad. I'm just like, let's presume no knowledge.  And he's a black man. And so became like their chief legal officer, general counsel for the company. And he was one of my mentors while I was there. So thank God I had him. And he was like our executive sponsor for everything that we were doing. But yeah, they had me like. Speak at an all hands, a company all hands next to Larry and Sergei and David was there, but he was not on stage. And the head of YouTube, which was Sergei's former spouse.  Like that work for Google was like tuning in. And just the company response was horrible. Like the following day, like people were all over like the internal like chat systems and everything, like basically just tearing down the movement, tearing down the cause, saying that we don't have a place to even be talking about this, like we're a search company, like all of that stuff and attacking me personally. And that was like probably like my last week there. OK, so then Community Exkis started then? No. OK, what happens? So my dad, so my family's from the south side of Chicago. My dad grew up with Arnie Duncan, who is the former US Secretary of Education and President Obama's cabinet. And so when I left there, I hit Arnie and I was like, you know, I needed somewhere to go, like I just need somewhere to go. And at the same time, like while we were doing all of that internal organizing, like the thing was it was like we were able to like map the ocean floors, but we didn't have like simple police data and that didn't make sense to me. And so it was actually like very simple things that we were asking for. We were asking for resources for that we just couldn't get. So I took that when I left and I was like, you know, there's this thing, like there's this thing of like everyone that I was cool with at the company wanted to be able to connect with with one another. They had things that they cared about. They wanted to be able to connect and there's this clear like very important like data set that's missing from like all of this. And I was like, do you have any opportunities? And he had just happened to like leave DC to go work for Lorraine Jobs, who is Steve Jobs Widow. And he hooked me up with like a fellowship for them. So I actually went from out of you to Hawaii and I was working out of Oahu doing like a fellowship for Lorraine. And then that's where I, you know, really started to dig deeper into, like, what could this be, really develop like a problem statement, start to like talk to other people, test out different ideas. And what did you think it could be? I mean, like literally take us to that kind of like thought process. What was the what was the problem? Was this was this back to the police violence? Yeah, it started out as just like a mapping project. Yeah. And then I was talking to my grandma one day. But different from like this Dorae McKesson thing, right? No, not different. OK. Yeah, like that was something that we were trying to do like before. OK. Um, no, not different. Describe the mapping project for folks. Yeah, it's just like crowdsourcing, like that. Well, in this case, police data from different people across the community. And I think they took in data from like people who are directly impacted or just were reporting instances. So data integrity, not super high. But anyways, that was the project simply because it didn't exist. And like we had also, yeah, it didn't exist. Like we also talk with people in D.C. To see if they had anything like it that they were and there was nothing. So it started out as that. But then I was talking with my grandma and she was like, you know, there's a bigger opportunity to like help more people than just like those that you can relate to. And that really, like she'd be saying, like the most profound things.   You ready to talk about what it is? Yeah. So, yeah. So, so Community X. I want to see the slides too. So Community X is what we call an app for change. And basically what we did is like the core algorithm aims to understand who a person is, where they are, and what specific causes they care about. And then we take those data points about a person and use it to help them build connections locally within their own community and around the world. So people are able to create these like online, cause-based communities. And then from there, we rethink the way content happens across like traditional social media. So like a lot of like hashtag activism and all of these things was like, because people were so limited in the types of content that they were able to share on these social media platforms up until like the last two years. Because Instagram started to do more and Facebook started to do more. But anyhow, we basically launched the first platform that really was like a one stop shop for any kind of like digital activism, online activism tool, whether it's fundraisers, petitions, events, whatever you want to do. So you basically build these communities. And then from within that same environment, you can post these different calls to action and have a feed that's like you're posting CTAs, people in your community are posting CTAs. And it's the same like easy interactions, just double tapping to like, boom, petition sign, donation made, all this stuff.  OK, that was a lot. We will post we will post a slower version of that somewhere. So someone could follow because that was there was a lot of information embedded in there. I want to start from like I want to start from the name and then go back to some of the functions, right? So I'm just like, why not like Activist X or Interaction X? What was it about community that you wanted to kind of like harping on? Well, I just didn't think community. I didn't believe that community existed. Real community existed online. And I also didn't believe that it existed in a lot of like real world situations that I was. So that's why community and then X like, you know, Malcolm X. So I thought it was kind of like community. Insert your community X could be that. OK, but it's but that's not my intention. But OK, I like Malcolm X. So so in again, in the literature, there's a there's a lot of discussion about the social movement efficacy, like what works? How do you think about works? How do you think about the social movements matter? How can they matter? When do they matter? You all have embedded within your app direct mechanisms to measure success or your conception of it. So what is your what is your conception? And this gets to the kind of discussions of digital activism. What is your sense of a successful digital campaign or digital activist campaign or an activist campaign as launched through community X? What what is what is a successful campaign look like? Yeah. And this is again where the road. It just diverges because you're so like intellectual and like I want to stop people from getting a shot. I'm not an intellectual in my house intellectual. I'm like, so we can measure that and you all you all offer an app that says that you're able to track different types of metrics, which one could think of as being a measure of success. Right. So if you think of reaching people as a manifestation of success for an awareness campaign or a petition is supposed to have some kind of end product, but at the same time is raising awareness. So your app is raising awareness is facilitating mobilization. So those could be indicators of success and also stop in the police violence could be an indicator of success. And so you had an interest in mapping the police violence. You have a measure that can capture contact people passing on information. People click and on stuff.  So I'm just like, what what's your take on efficacy and success? And for me, it's like. When so, we have like 750,000 monthly active users. We have our mobile app and we have the website, community.com. We're heavily like our users are like 90 percent on the web app. So anyhow, what we do as a company, as far as like growth and marketing is very different than what like TikTok and Instagram and Facebook and Twitter or whatever. Eggs, they copied us like for real. We came out of that. So, but yeah, it's very different because like TikTok will spend millions of dollars a day just trying to get y'all to like download their app. And for us, we put zero dollars into like actual acquisition marketing. So like in our space, it's like our called a cat like customer acquisition cost. And we have a zero dollar customer acquisition cost. And the reason why is because we took our entire like, well, so our most our latest round of funding was a seed round that was like one point five million dollar around. And all of that marketing budget we took and we put it back into the community. And we did that by going to people who were coming to the website or whatever app and posting calls to action like, hey, help get my relative out of prison, like help me get my indigenous child, you know, return back to her tribe or help raise money for my family because my brother was just killed by police in Jackson, Mississippi. So we go to these we go to these people who are posting these actions on our app. And we help them build more robust marketing campaigns around their cause and their movement. And then we go into the community and like, we'll have like media conferences and like bring the family. And like, I'll be with them and we'll talk to the media to help get their message out even more. And that's where we put our money.  Like be, you know, with a family that like needs support and like wouldn't be heard otherwise because all these other platforms are just so noisy and like, how are you going to hear about everything? So yeah, like we have metrics. We have stuff we look at. We have DAUs, MAUs, like all that stuff. But like nothing's more important than being able to like actually interact with someone and like let them know like you're there to help. So I mean, the pushback to some of this instrumentalist kind of research, there's a pleasure activism, I'm forgetting. Does anyone remember her name? Yeah, I think she's from Detroit, actually. So it's just like so she's a pleasure activism is we actually derive something. We feel something as you as you identified sitting with the mother or ample the pleasure you receive from amplifying a particular message. All these things are things that should count as well as people are counting these other things. And so the folks like myself that are like, OK, we should stop. We should stop this violence business. And so the violence should go down. That's one way to look at it. Being there for the mother is another way to look at it. Being in the community and being with other people who are concerned. That's another way to look at it. And so that's a broader conception of it. So yeah, I think the campaigns, they touch on all the things, but it's just that's what's most important to me. And I think that that's just also is what's lacking in like leadership across every industry. But anyways, yeah, like we'll have can't like for a campaign we did in Hawaii around like this leaking fuel bunker, this leaking Navy owned fuel bunker that was poisoning indigenous communities and military families in Hawaii. You know, we worked on that campaign and we supported like dozens of families and we sent a briefing to POTUS who sent it to the DOD who then announced a shutdown. So like we'll work at that level, too. But, you know, if you ask me what's like most important to me that, you know. No, that's good to hear. So you zipped. You guys slow down. I think I think you're going really fast. But some of the examples, right, the one you just gave. So it's like how did that start? How were you contacted? What did what did you then do? You seem to have this iterative interaction with the communities that you're working with or the grieved. And so it seems to kind of go back and forth like it did with the Lucisa Pagina case. And then you're developing stuff in-house and then you're showing it to the people you're working with. Then it's trotted out. Individuals are working with it. Could you take us through another example, maybe? So, well, for us, we started focused on atomic networks. And I think for any consumer technology or consumer-focused anything, atomic networks are crucial. And so for us, we built atomic networks within a core set of like across a core set of causes.  Atomic network is just like a core tight group of people who are like very focused on something. And those ended up being like what we would call power users in the tech space. So yeah, so we built those like atomic networks across a few different causes and then built trust within them and then started, they would bring stuff to us. They would be like, you know, this is this, we just got in contact with this family. This is what's happening over here and then that's how we get a lot of like in-bounds, like campaign requests. What do you all, what do you think that you are like not touching on at all or could do better? Because it seems like you have an element of what you're able to do is amplification. What other things do you think that you all could do? But you're also present, right? So you've now shifted, you've now shifted my conception of how we could think about efficacy, right? So being present is incredibly important in addition to amplification, in addition to addressing the reason why you showed up in the first place. But clearly, as you kind of identified, one is other people in this marketplace of change-making and two, there's certain things that might not be achievable with the way that you're approaching it. So it's kind of like, it's kind of hard to see one's blind spot or where you might not be as strong as you'd like to be. But is there a spot? Yeah, I mean, I think we can, you can always do more, we can do more in terms of the families that we help. We can go deeper into, you know, different causes that we support. We could be, like, on more campuses, like, there's a lot of things that we could, you know, be doing more of, yeah. There was another slide. Yes. Yeah. Did you walk through that one? No. So this is just like the, this is like the FTU, which is like the first time user flow for, like, any sign-up flow or whatever. Just showing, like, how you can, there's a screen before this where it's like you enter in all the basic information. And then this is a, like, static list that we serve to our users. So we curate the causes that are available on the platform, but you can always, like, suggest ones to us that you think are missing. And then that goes into a whole database and gets upvotes and stuff, and that's how we decide what gets added as new stuff to the platform. But yeah, once you do that, like, you're in, and this is kind of just showing, like, the functionality of the app. So, like, this is a petition post where you'll see it kind of just populates in the feed like any other post would, but instead of, like, a heart, there's, like, a take action button, so you would press the take action button, press sign, and then keeps scrolling.  And then we also have the causes for you, so, like, you can tap into each of your causes and communicate with those communities and then see everything you've posted. Fun fact, we released, and I'm not lying, like, hopefully you know by now, I'm not lying. We released the pinning feature, like, eight months before Instagram released the pinning feature. Like, look it up. Like, we did. And so that really upset me. But anyways, I think, because these two posts are pinned, so I just thought about that. But, yeah, those are, like, kind of, like, the main screens. Okay, so you offer, kind of, a co-evolutionary model where someone can approach you and they're just, like, I don't see this particular aspect of civil rights that you have up there. You can then add that. And then they say, I don't see the actions that we'd like to take up there. And then you could add that. And so the app is interactive in the sense that it could work with individuals. As we were talking about this earlier, right, so, imagine Ford.  I don't know what you all care about or what you'd be willing or interested in doing. So then we could send this app or invitation out to everybody that's connected here. Everybody can then fill these things out. They'd have the thing on the far right. But then what you'd be able to do is click on racial justice and then find everybody else in Ford that has that particular interest in racial justice. And then you could also look at what interests they might have or what tactics they might think might be most applicable. And so this basically is true to form. It helps you find community. I mean, so that, and this is a very Michigan problem in many respects, right? We are so large that we lose ourselves within the mix, but this could help us find who we are and what we're willing to do and what we care about, which is the weirdest thing.  But I thought that was an incredibly important aspect of this particular program in the app and Chloe as an individual and thought that that would be something that we would just thrive with in our community go blue mode. But questions. It seems like a good time to kind of open it up. Well, I did have a couple of cases. How are we on time? Are we like... I have no idea about time, but I'm just like, I'm like, I figure Marl would signal to me that something is off. Okay. Examples. Perfect. Yes. Perfect. Thank you. Okay. Yes. I am going to highlight a few campaigns that we've worked on and there are images. So if you're sensitive, I'm not offended if you don't want to view these slides. But so this is one of the campaigns that we did that I kind of referenced earlier. It's called Bring Chanel Home. And this is an active campaign. So anyone who cares about Indigenous rights in this room, please go to the site and take the action because this family really needs the support. So basically what happened with this case is an Indigenous woman was murdered by her spouse and left behind a four-year-old baby. And the spouse, because of the court system's lack of everything, ended up with custody of the child while he was also being charged for murder. And then gave custody over to a friend of a friend who was just a totally random person and wasn't within the tribe. This is in Alaska, by the way. So the maternal grandmother would like custody of her granddaughter, but is having to go through the Selewik tribal courts to try and get that custody back from, again, a non-tribal white family in Alaska that's refusing to give the baby back. And they don't even have what's called temporary custody of the child. They're just basically glorified babysitters because, again, the dad is on trial for murder. And he kind of just passed the baby over before he went to prison.  And the maternal grandmother is perfectly capable of taking care of her. When we got this case, there was like no coverage about it. No one knew about it. I think the petition now has like, shoot, I want to say, I know over 60,000 petition signatures, but I want to say like 70,000. And we raised tens and thousands of dollars for the grandmother. So hopefully when the child is returned, she does have the funds that she needs in order to support a healthy transition for this baby. But yeah, and then this is like, we got, we did a whole press thing for the family and we got People Magazine to cover the story to just continue to help raise national awareness around what was going on with the family. So yeah, that's bringing it all home. I don't think I'm going to have enough time to do every case. So I'm going to do the active ones because this one's definitely an active campaign. This is Red Hill Crisis, which has been much harder to get people to care about. And I don't know why because what's happening, like what happened to these families on Red Hill and on a Wahoo in Hawaii is just horrifying. And I mentioned this is like there was just a decrepit, just extremely old bunker, fuel bunker that contained jet fuel owned by the Navy that was just sitting there and just was never maintained and started leaking this jet fuel into the main Aquafire, not only for the surrounding indigenous community but also even like the military families.  And the children got poisoned. The adults got poisoned. They were not able to work. These are two of the families that I went I went out there last year in May to meet with them. And so these are two of the families, Noreen and Amanda, who both have children. And yeah, Amanda's daughter, she'll just get like these spontaneous nosebleeds. And also like speaking your language a little bit there's very little data on jet fuel poisoning because it happens so rarely. And so doctors are not only like sort of unsure on how to like diagnose and handle and treat stuff like this. But also because the hospital that they were forced to go to because these are actually two military families was a military hospital. And they weren't getting properly diagnosed because they didn't want to be culpable. So Amanda's daughter gets like these crazy spontaneous nosebleeds. She has migrated. She missed like months of school.  And Amanda developed like tumors in her brain that's just at this point now she's like written when we did this press conference she was able to like move around but she can't get out of bed. And Noreen has just been so busy taking care of her kids that she hasn't been able to work. This was a really hard one. And one of the things that we do that we've done well is like build partnerships across different spaces. So we work with a lot of athletes and we work with a lot of like entertainers who actually like care about these issues. And thankfully for this campaign I was able to get Kyrie to do to make a donation to this family. So he made a donation of Irving basketball player Kyrie Irving. Just Elijah Muhammad. He paid for like four months rent for like Noreen and Amanda. And then we gave them an extra like 10 or $15,000 to be able to help with medical bills and stuff. So he definitely stepped into support but this is something that families are still going through. There has been no justice. No one's been held accountable. They had to, Amanda had to move her family like off the island to get the proper care that she needed on the mainland. And it's just been horrible and it's something that we are still working on and trying to help with every day. We did again send that letter to like Biden and whatever and they announced the shutdown. But that has only just begun and we've been working on this for two years now, almost two and a half years now. So yeah, I'm not going to have time to go through everything. I think just those two but yeah. Cool. Thank you. The next, the next case. Okay. Okay. So this is justice for native kids. I also do a lot of human and sex trafficking cases, which I don't know how much I'll know about that particular issue. But right now it's a really big issue and I've been working specifically in Atlanta and San Diego where it's gotten in really, really bad. And this was a case where a native girl was basically sex trafficked and sex trafficked into Camp Pendleton. You're probably not familiar with that base, but she was sex trafficked into Camp Pendleton and her family did not know where she was for like weeks. And then had seen her like on a site. And then, yeah, investigators like were not helping with the case and the family wasn't sure why only to find out that she was on Camp Pendleton and authorities had actually known that. And so when we first got this case, the family was like, it was very much the beginning. Thankfully, we've made progress like the girl was released. And she was brought home. The person who she was with was arrested and taken off base. But at this point, we're still trying to figure out, you know, the impossible. So, yeah, we're not still sure exactly how that happened. But I will say that in cities where like human and sex trafficking is like getting really bad.  It's a very serious problem. So, yeah, that's just this for Native kids. This person is a minor, so we didn't release any information about the minor themselves. This is her aunt that was representing her at the press conference that we did. Turn it on or it's on. Thank you for coming in. One of the questions I had about community access an app is I think a lot of the things you've mentioned have been petitions or donations or stuff like that. How does the does the app connect people to in person actions or different like community organizing networks where they can like directly get involved in their community one and then two. Is it an app that mainly individuals use to get their cases out or issues out or is it being used by nonprofits community organizing or organizations or other like schools for example could use it or who's it being used by. Yeah, so there's there's a thank you for the question and there's a user flow for individuals and organizations. So you can sign up as either and then. What was the first part of your question in person mobilization. Oh, yes, so there's an event CTA as well. So our our set right now is events petitions and fundraisers we're building out a boycott feature, which I'm excited about. And yeah, we'll continue to build out our feature set in that regard because ultimately we want to be like an end to end toolkit for any action. But yes, our event feature has like, you can RSVP to ground actions and all that stuff so yeah. Tell us a little bit more about creating the different websites for these causes and also when people donate how much of that goes directly to the people that are donating to the cause. How much of the recipients get from that like is it like a go fund me where they take a percentage out. Yeah, so. Okay, so as far as the sites, our team like internally we build those out for families. And so we work hand in hand with them to get the copy right to make sure the images are right. All that stuff. And then for the for our fundraiser feature. Basically, we built that feature out ourselves as far as the code but we use the stripe API to process transactions. And so we take we basically stripes fees to us get covered, but we don't get any like profit or anything beyond that. And there's also when a user posts a fundraiser, they get that notice that the stripe fees will be deducted but everything else goes to that individual or organization. Yeah, there's no profit that we make off of it. Yeah, thank you for this. Oh, fantastic. Thank you. This has been very, very interesting and everything that you're talking about is super important. And I think also super heartbreaking. And I think being so close to these issues, I know you described like it feels good to be able to work with these people to talk to people to kind of help console families and like have this direct action. But what do you do if anything to kind of protect yourself and to sort of maintain like this sort of level of mental health whenever you're constantly involved in these things that I think are really heartbreaking. Thank you for your question. Girl, I don't know. But you on it though. That's a great question. I don't do. I'll send you some resources. Yeah.  If you remember the organization witness, it's like they basically deal with people who are documenting these abuses around the globe, but the people who are witnessing these violations are themselves going through all types of mental health issues. And so there needs to be some greater connection. Or if you know somebody who's like the International Red Cross or Human Rights Watch or Amnesty, they talk about these issues quite frequently. But part of the resiliency, I mean, taking Chloe as an example, just what she's talking about here. Part of her recovery was the joy on thinking about having some issue being brought to light, right? And so that becomes part of the healing process itself where you realize that you're going through some horrible encounters with some folks. But what they want is the thing that you're actually delivering for them. And so you're able to kind of like find the resiliency and find your kind of like your health in that space. And so there's a little bit of discussion about that in various literatures, but not nearly enough, right? And so this is where the whole every research project that goes to some like conflict zone around the globe needs to have built into it some element of mental health. We're not as good with that as we need to be. And definitely following up on the scholars that do that type of work or the activists that are engaging in that work. But it's clearly an issue that some folks have paid attention to. And I will say that as far as like how we run the company, anyone can take a mental health day at any time on our team. I just don't. But people do.  But yeah, so we don't do that here. Although, you know, it's like those of us that do study these these horrible things that happen to be at this institution is more like good luck with that. There's very little and it's funny, right? Not funny, funny, funny in the sad way, not funny in the kind of humorous way. It's like, you know, I have a list of things that I'm supposed to give to a student that is having these types of issues. But other scholars or graduate students that are engaging in similar kind of like research. It's like, you know, I've contacted a couple of these things on behalf of some people and they weren't exactly the most helpful things either, right? So I'm like, I don't know that I would necessarily refer to the list that I'm supposed to give to refer somebody. So I'm like, okay, but then what am I supposed to do? So not clear. So then it becomes this open conversation between folks like, oh, remember when you were dealing with that mass rape in Serbia? Okay, yes. Well, how'd you deal with it? Sometimes just talking about it with these other people has served as a resource I found. But Chloe has her way. Just not clear yet. Thanks so much for all these stories. It's really incredible. I want to give you permission to just say no to my question. But I think about the history of the Internet and like it kind of reinvents itself every five years.  And then like we had Vine and then Vine didn't take off, but TikTok just reinvented it. And it's exactly the same thing, but it took off. And so I definitely hear you when you say you developed Pin Before Instagram and Elon stole your name. And I think he should pay you for it. But I also wonder what you think about kind of the role of your app in the space over time, right? Like is it like I think it would be great if you just kind of stuck with it and kind of kept doing like however many of these issues you can do a year and then move forward with that, right? And in a lot of ways that's a more human approach to the Internet, right? So I'm just going to use this tool. I'm just going to use it to do some stuff. But what do you think about like in terms of scalability or in terms of like what if a whole bunch of people come on to your tool and like you need to moderate the hack out of everything you're getting? So anything in that that you'd respond to would be great. Well, what will I respond to? I think moderation is something we've talked about already. So we're aware and like my CTO is also we met at Google. So he has his own thoughts on how he wants to approach that. I think as far as like innovating on what we've already built. I can say that I think like either it's either like nuclear energy or like AI that will destroy the planet. And I think AI is much more likely because it's so unrestricted and people who are really unqualified to have access to something so powerful. Have access to it. And so I think that's really dangerous. And we don't like from my perspective we don't need to hop on trends just to hop on trends like everyone across the valley is talking about it now. How can we use it? I don't think we need to do all that because that's not what like we're focused on the impact. So yeah, there's a lot I could say about that. I got a quick spin on that. So it's like have any hate groups used your app? They need community too, right? Not yet. Okay.  Well, when you sign up they would have to choose the wrong causes. Like they would have to. So they couldn't lobby you for like a cause. Yeah. Okay. But they would have to. I mean they could. I mean you might not approve it. Yeah. Okay. I'm just trying to figure out how this works. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, any consumer application on the internet is going to have to face moderation issues at some point. And you know, my CTL is going to handle it. No, I'm just kidding. It's something we take seriously and user safety is something that we take very seriously. And so, yeah, we're at, I think I mentioned, we're at 750,000 monthly site visitors now. We have not had any real problems. But you know, when it happens, we are going to, you know, deal with it in ethical and responsible way. Okay. How many cases have you dealt with? So you have users, but how many of like individuals, so you call this a case, right? Yeah. How many cases have you had go through the site? So last year, we helped like almost 15% of the like CTAs, like campaigns that got posted on the platform, which ended up being like to like 75. And, yeah. Do you feel like you could do more? I felt like we could do so more, but I was home for like two days a month. Like, yeah, I was home for two days a month, like up until October. So, I mean, okay, so maybe that's something that wasn't communicated properly. Right. So initially we talked, we discussed the app as if something that's out there on the internet that anybody could use. Yeah, it is. But you actually travel a great deal to deal with a lot of these cases in person. Yeah. So there's a hybrid component. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, it's got to be like, we're not just putting something out on the internet just to like do it like at all. So like you're really important because you're going into these places? I think, I don't think, I don't know, I can't answer that question. I mean, yes, I understand if anyone needs to leave, but this is another case. It's Justice for Damien. Again, content warning. This is took place in a little bit outside of Jackson, Mississippi. And we got this case from local activists in Mississippi who, this is just one of many cases that we're actually working on in that area right now. And the activists there are just having a lot of help building awareness around what's happening as far as like excessive police force and brutality. And just like heavy mass incarceration across like Jackson and the neighboring like towns. And in this specific case, Damien Cameron was murdered by police. This is his family that I'm sitting with his grandmother, his mother, his brother, his cousin, and two activists that we were working with. Yeah, police, they showed up to Mrs. Cameron's home and began pursuing or chasing. Damien was like in the house. They like came out, answered the door. They were like chasing him around the home and they just, yeah. So we started working on this case at the beginning and it's been two years now. And nothing has happened as far at like locally or federally for this case until, well, so, okay, so when we did this press conference, we got the autopsy report, like the day before we went to press. And the only reason why we got the autopsy report is because it had been 18 months with them withholding the report and we came in and they hadn't had anybody because like Jackson's really like not enough people caring about Jackson. So not a lot of outside people come into the community. So once they found out we were coming in to do this press conference, they're like, okay, well, we're going to at least just release the autopsy report. So we got that the day before and we actually presented it at the press conference but still like no charges have been filed against the police officers and there has just been no accountability. But you were there for them, so be careful. Yeah. Your own metric of success. Monica, who's right here, I talked to her like once a week and she's just like, you know, she lost her son. So yeah, it's just a really, it's just a really tough spot and getting accountability for this case just continues to be really hard because of everything that's happening politically in Mississippi. I'm not sure how much I'll know about Mississippi, but everyone from like camp down and then what they're doing to Jackson like just last year they basically gave like a neighboring predominantly white city dominion over Jackson so that they were able to like basically elect like the police chief and like other like officials for Jackson. So they basically like it's crazy what's happening down there. So we're fighting against multiple things as far as this case and it's probably just gonna, it's just gonna continue to take time for us to advocate for this family. But yeah, that's, that's, that's Damien Cameron. I think we have time for one more question. Were you raising your hand over here? A little bit, you were, okay. Hi, thank you for coming in and speaking to us. So I have a question related to like when you come in to these cases, how do you prepare to come in and enter this community? Like are you doing research? If it's a topic that you're not really that familiar about so you can best impact the community or are you really relying on the community to like tell you what they need and just go off that I'm sure maybe a mix of both but like what does it look like if you're preparing to enter into a community and make an impact? Yeah, that's like the biggest question for me every time we get a case is like how do we do our best here? And yeah, I mean you mentioned a couple of the things like one, we always try and have a community partner. Like when we did like, you know, Christian was our partner when we were helping with the Lucisa Vigina case. Like we always try and have a community partner that can inform us beyond what the family is able to tell us or what the affected person's able to tell us because these spaces are really tricky and you know being an outsider when it comes to these things is really hard. So it's a great point. Like so yeah, why don't we always try and have a community partner whether it's an org, an activist, a community leader like Walt and Flo here who helped us with this case and we'll work together. We'll just have, you know, meeting after meeting just talking through different things trying to figure out, you know, where the city is politically what this judge be on, who this police chief is like all the different things and then we of course talk with the affected person or family and learn everything that we can from them. Sometimes there's an attorney involved. A lot of times, like we'll only take cases if there's an attorney involved. If it's like an attorney we know. Like we work a lot with attorney Crump. So like the Tyree Nichols case last year, we ran that for him. But anyhow, we'll make sure to align with the attorney because that just complicates everything tenfold when there's an attorney involved. And then we'll do media prep with the family just to make sure that they're ready and we kind of go over like, you know, this is what we're going to talk about. These are the sensitive case details that we absolutely cannot talk about. If they ask this, I'll step in and I'll give, you know, a non-response on your behalf like be on the same page about everything. And then, yeah, our team is really great at just making sure that everything, you know, runs smoothly and we're able to, you know, do our best for the family. So, yeah. That's a really, that's what I ask myself every time. Well, I just want to thank you again for coming, for sharing all of this, for sharing your journey, some of these really personal narratives and the inspiration that you've provided us all with. Thank you all for joining us. Thank you Katrina and Angela for organizing all of this stuff, for Christian, for moderating. And I hope you guys will all join us outside in the lobby for some refreshments. Thank you guys. Thank you.


All right, this is one of my favorite demonstrations, showing you the power of Knative plus Kafka on OpenShift. And we're gonna walk you through the key capabilities of it. Keep in mind, we do document this particular demonstration. You'll see that in the notes below. But for now, we're just gonna kind of show you the highlights of how the basics are set up. Okay, so I have my OpenShift project here and I have an OpenShift project called Kafka. So let's kind of check that out, Kafka right there. And in it, of course, is running my operator, my installed operator for MQ Streams, which gives me the Kafka broker itself. Okay, so that's one thing that's already out there. And actually, let's go ahead and click on Kafka here. And you can see there's my cluster, which has been created. Also, let me check out Kafka topic and there is the my topic that's been created. You'll notice that the topic has 100 partitions. That's kind of important for this particular demonstration. That's the concurrency factor, right? You wanna have a great concurrency rolling through that Kafka topic. So 100 partitions is important there.  Okay, some things that are gonna help us do this particular demonstration. Let me now come in into the developer console and show you what we can do. We have the Kafka broker up and running. So my zookeepers, my Kafka brokers. Again, there's the service known as the bootstrap service for come say, CUBE CTL get services. You'll see there's the bootstrap service. So there's a lot of components already in place. I'm not gonna walk you through all the details here, but what I wanna show you is what it means to add a new Knative component to this. So this is standard Kafka on Kubernetes, standard Kafka with StrumZ on OpenShift using OpenShift operators there. But let me come in here and hit add container image. And then now I gotta remember the actual name of my image. So I think it was 101, nope, not quite. Sync, I think is what I call that image. Okay, fantastic. We're gonna put this in an unassigned application. That's just a grouping, a visual grouping on screen there. My Knative sync here, that looks good from that perspective. We're gonna call this a Knative service. And then let's click on the scaling factor down here. I wanna have it a concurrency target of one, concurrency limit of one. What this means is for every one message, you have one pod. So while it's processing one message, it can only process one message and therefore one pod. That becomes more interesting when we really hammer it with a bunch of messages. So let's hit create. All right, there it is. My Knative service coming to life. If I come back to my command line, I do a lot of checking at the command line for things. So I like doing that. So get Knative service, case service there. And again, the Knative capability is due to get pods in Knative serving. This is what happens when you install that OpenShift serverless operator and Knative eventing. This was part of it as well. So that's the two namespaces that have the Knative infrastructure in it. And of course, if you say get CRDs, grep Knative, you'll see these extra types that we're working with here. So like you can see ping sources, you'll see Kafka sources. And the Kafka source came because I installed this additional operator. Let's go back over here to show you the additional operator. Let's go here, operators, installed operators. And then right here, the Knative Apache Kafka operator. That's what gave me the Knative event source for Kafka. That's how that came to be. A lot of words here. But let's go into the developer console warm time. So there's my Knative service. You notice that it has nice blue ring. That's because a pod came to life and now it just went dark because the pod just scaled down. So the pod scaled down based on the fact no one's interacting with it. So let's go and do this. See this little blue arrow right here? Actually, let me move things around a little bit, make it a little bit easier to see, move that over here. We don't need to worry about the Kafka broker. Make this a little bit bigger. Move it over, there we go. I'm gonna see this little blue arrow. I'm gonna click on it. And if I do this right, I'm gonna say from event source. So this is an event trigger for this Knative serving service. So by default, a Knative serving service responds to HTTP events. I wanna make it respond to Kafka events. So I'm gonna say event source. And then I can say a Kafka source here. When I do that, it wants me to pick my bootstrap server. And remember the bootstrap server, we could basically say kubectl get services. And there it is, my cluster bootstrap right there. So let's put that in. And it's actually in the Kafka namespace and it's gonna be 8082. So let's, if we can go back over here. Yeah, did I do, maybe it's not 8082. Maybe it's 9092. How about we do it correctly with 9092. Nearly messed that one up. But there is the service. So it's just like any other service in Knative, or sorry, in Kubernetes LAN. What topic do we want here? We're gonna go with the my topic. Okay, so again, I can double check that by saying kubectl get Kafka topics. There we go, my topic right there. And again, I have my Kafka itself get Kafka's. Again, these are all customer resource definitions. Okay, so got those two things answered. Just call this my group for now. And if I did that correctly, my Knative sync service name Kafka source, let's hit create here. And that component shows up right there. Okay, there it is. And if I come over and say kubectl get Kafka source, and we can double check some things, kubectl describe Kafka source, Kafka source with the dash. And it, and we can kind of look in here and we can see, okay, Knative sync, that looks right there. My Knative sync there, that looks okay. My group is fine. And where is the, oh yeah, my cluster Kafka bootstrap Kafka. So if we've done everything correctly, when we start shoving messages into this Kafka broker, specifically into the my topic, okay, my topic, it'll then route those messages into the Knative serving service, known as my Knative sync. All right, so let's see if we can kind of make that magic happen here. So we got that working. It's auto-scaled. Okay, that looks good. Okay, and let's kind of, we'll watch this and then move it over here. Make it so easier to see. Move this over here. Okay, right there. All right, that guy right there. That's the guy we wanna see auto-scale based on Kafka messages. Now I have another component here I call the Kafka spammer. It's just another image that I have created that basically blast messages into a particular topic. In this case, it's gonna look for my topic, looking for my cluster, and I'm just gonna exec into it. Let's see Kafka spammer. Okay. I know this deprecated, but at some point I'll learn the new command. And I'm gonna say curl localhost 8080 and I want one message to show up. So let's send in one message and there it is, my Knative sync coming to life at this point. And actually two pods in this case. So the algorithm is not exactly deterministic, if you will. So if you send one message in, you might get two pods. If you send 20 messages in, you might get 24 pods, something of that nature. Basically, since we're auto-scaled to zero, this burst of message activity will cause the upscaling from a Knative standpoint, but that algorithm is gonna be looking at a couple different factors. It essentially is trying to figure out, oh my God, messages have come in. How do I get a pod to respond to it? In this case, there is two pods possibly responding to that one message. So if I come over here and actually say stern, my Knative sync, and we're viewing the logs of that pod, you will see a message that's showing up here. So if I say see user container, so we can see what those messages are and all those messages have gone through already. Okay, if I push another one in, we should see another message show up here and we'll keep that pod alive. But you will notice as Knative realizes it doesn't need these pods anymore, it'll start downscaling. So we're already one is terminating. And then we'll see the next one terminate based on the fact that there is no additional message, new event to keep it alive. So if we watch it for about 60 seconds since our last transaction, you'll see it downscale automatically. In this case, it did make my Knative sync a Quarkus-based application. It is Java, but it is gonna, because it's compiled in native, it's gonna boot up real fast, be very small, supersonic subatomic Java, that's kind of the point. And therefore it'll respond quickly. A lot of people think for these use cases, you have to have something like Go or C++ or Node.js or Python, but we're kind of demonstrating that you can do this with Java-based applications also. So there it is, it's gonna be downscaling here momentarily. We did touch it again by sending one more message in and therefore it'll have a new 60 second lease on life. You can of course override that parameter and actually determine if in fact, the lifespan of the pod that's not really doing anything is 60 seconds or maybe it might be 15 seconds, 20 seconds, 30 seconds. You can kind of change that interval. Right now I have it set for the default 60. It is terminating now, if we look at our console, you'll see it's auto-scaled to zero. So it's in terminating mode, which simply means that LCD and of course, the Kubernetes cluster are basically kind of communicating with each other and going, okay, is that pod still alive? Is that process still running in that worker node? And then LCD has to update its database and of course, the user interface gets updated, the API gets updated and now you can see it's gone. But let's do something really crazy. Let's really hammer it. Let's push in 50 messages. Oh, well let's just go for it. Let's just push in 100 messages and let's see what happens. Let's see if we can really make this thing panic and freak out and really go into overdrive mode. So there you go, it's container creating, pending, pending, meaning it's gotta schedule it across my worker nodes.  I get of course, you can see it's trying to scale up to 143 pods right now. So that's a four pod, six pods. So these pods are coming online. If I wanted to, I could go add machine sets or have some other form of outer scaler based on worker nodes to also scale up my worker nodes, make them either bigger or more of them. But it's just kind of fun to watch what it's trying to do. It's trying to schedule the pods in question across the different worker nodes that I have. You can see 45 are running out, 46 are running. But this is also pretty telling. That's essentially 50 application servers springing to life in response to all these messages. So I can now start processing those messages as they show up in our system. But that is really the power of what you see with Knative, Knative eventing, Knative event source based on Kafka and of course Kafka being the message back plane in this case. So if you want more information about this particular demonstration, you'll have to kind of check out our master course materials, our tutorials around Kafka and Knative and this particular use cases also exposed there and demonstrated there. You can see right now it's dynamically downscaling based on the fact that I'm not entering new load. Those hundred messages are already in the system. They've been consumed and it's now terminating all those pods and it's scaled to zero again. So that's the beauty of Knative. You only pay for what you use meaning I'm only paying for that memory in CPU while there's actual traffic, in this case, events driving the system load and causing it to scale out or in this case, scale back down. Thank you for your time. We're gonna have more videos based on neat capabilities and components of Knative and Kafka and Istio and OpenShift and Kubernetes in just a few more moments. Thank you.