Mae'r ydych chi'n chael dyma i ddweud gwrth bwysig oherwydd yr oedd gallwn nhw i'w hynny ymwneud iawn, ac efallai'n ni wneud i'r cyfryd i'w sefydliol yn dweud yr ysbytech syniadau am ni oherwydd gyda'r ysbytech ffordd gwn i'n ei ddweud o'r mlynedd, i wneud wereth ar y dw i'r rhaid. A oes wedi cael ei ddweud ar y peth oedd. Mae rhaid i'w wneud â chyfyrdd i chi'n ei ddweud, sydd yn fawr cyfwyrwyrrwyr yna? Ieithio chi'n gweithio ito'n gweithio'n gweithio'r ffordd honno? Rwy'n gweithio'n gweithio, yn gyfyrdd, a'r TV? Well, gallwch chi'n wneud rhywbeth. Gallwch chi'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gwneud o'r blynydd ymddangos cyfnod ar ystod, sydd ymddiad yn ei wneud o'r byd i'ch gwybod y Pasysgwrth a'r bobl. that was interesting. I mean, fact as a kind of technology provider had a fair amount of resource at its hands in terms of what it can building the platform, providing services to film events, record events. But yeah, I think probably finding the right partners is the key thing, like, as in life. We got into Zen philosophy, that was good. So how do you go about it then? Well we looked around, really. I mean obviously the first port of call is to see what people are doing with their own websites. We wanted to keep it local as well, initially in the first phase. As I said the art player platform sort of spread over three phases. The third phase being sort of very reasonably big, well established national organisations. The second phase being organisations that are creating content, a fair amount of content, but not necessarily with some where it's put it. But the first phase being keep it local, keep it a good spread of activity, keep and go out and meet and make sure you get on. Okay, so I think that's probably one for you isn't it? Major challenge? I think I emphasised it a little bit in the presentation, but I think with the stakeholders we have we all have very different interests. We have different core competencies and I think we need to lean, we need to learn when to lean on the other partner for information, especially bridging a big gap between what we can do technologically, as well as what the arts and cultural organisations are about. I mean that was a big learning I think for both of us, to be able to appreciate what both bring to the table and you're really bridging a gap of knowledge. So I think that's why communication is important. Okay, so dig into that a bit further then. So you're bridging a gap. My personal view on this is that generally speaking the technology is the enabler and in this particular context it's all about taking the art form and all the artistic mission or whatever it is to a wider audience or developing it in new ways. Was it a vocabulary thing? Did you not know how to talk to each other? What were the symptoms of the problem? I definitely say vocabulary is one thing. I mean we seem to have to explain ourselves two or three times and that's absolutely fine. Because you're not very good at explaining yourself. No, I think it's because we have a different language and we refer to things. Sorry, you're being flippant. No, it's the same thing with content. I think when I talk about content is that we can refer to accession numbers maybe four or five different ways and how is it that we're going to represent this content if we don't understand where it's coming from or what it was supposed to do from the very beginning. It can be as simple as let's just put that up there. Do you need it? We have it. No, no, it's really what was the purpose of having it in there at the first place. Is the right users accessing it or is it behind the scenes type of enabler? So really having the technology help means understanding comprehensively what we need to do from the very beginning. How do you go about working to develop the trust that sounds like you need in the relationship? I've got 15 years of experience and scalls on my back from digital projects but how do you build them on? The same way you do with everybody.  What I was going to add to what was just said was that actually there are quite a lot now of opportunities for people to go out and meet other people from different backgrounds in terms of technology backgrounds. So for example, the work that the TSB do in terms of the consortium building projects and the work that the Northwest Vision Media do in terms of events that they do, I went to one recently with a presentation by Pact who's a very interesting bridge between, in fact I know you're involved with it, a bridge between producers and distributors and they're very good to do great advocacy work for the sector as well. So they'll just find us, I mean it's a short notice now and obviously we're entering into the kind of August period too, where everybody's going to be away and I know in some of the other research projects I'm working on, it's a real problem actually in the August period, but essentially just get yourself out there and go and meet people, see who you get on with, see where the gaps are in terms of your knowledge and see who you can find to fill those gaps. So how do you find, Prasilyr and Alexandra, how do you find a person to fill the gaps? Project managers, producers, do you suddenly all have to become sort of pocket geeks? I mean how do you actually do it in practice? If I may take this one. Well I think that actually you do end up doing a little bit of everything and I think it is extremely important to actually put yourself in the position of your partners. And I mean one of the ways I think we sort of started bridging this gap is that coming from very different points of expertise, when you talk about visuals, there's nothing like being able to show somebody something and have them tell us it's wrong and that's really one of our approaches in the beginning if we realized it's a lot of work but it actually will save you time to just say look just let's try something and then you can tell us whether or not this is the way you want your work to represent it, this is the way you want things to actually function and your user experience. Going back to what Prasilyr said earlier about learning from the expertise of your partners I think that's really how we do it and that involves having a project management plan but also making it flexible because at the end of the day, there's a lot of coming back and forth and the more we do it, the better we are at doing it. So there's a huge learning curve on our side as well. Definitely, I mean the milestones and scheduling are really important but you've got to keep flexible. You have to have an aim, steps you want to reach, milestones you want to reach but I mean for example with our, we've had to kind of pour our back end redevelop it basically because it wasn't reaching the kind of quality standards that we needed it to do so that was a milestone we had for July but we've kind of had to buy another couple of weeks in terms of our scheduling time to sort of fix that. So create milestones, create schedules, sure but don't get too sweaty about sort of sitting and fix it on that. Okay, I'm going to come to a question at the back in a second but just to close off this. Prasilyr, you mentioned sprints. That's a project management methodology called ADJAR, isn't it? Where in which you operate in a weekly or bi-weekly, very rapid, you show the thing you've made, you look at it, you reiterate it, you do some more work on it and another couple of weeks you do it again because people may have a different experience of waiting nine months for a website and then one being sort of born fully formed in a sort of bloody mess. How are sprints different? I mean is that the way you would advise people on a structured model? Well, it's worked for us and I think it goes back to having a tool that gives you kind of a structure but realising that things do change and adapt to and that we can iterate and that's the key part, that your process allows you to iterate, allows you to put some feedback in there so it's not so rigid. So yes, it absolutely works for us but I'm sure there are other methods as well. Okay, so I've got a question up at the back, I think. Thank you. Hi, Fiona Gasparole, Exchange Theatre. Hi Fiona. I'm going back to what you said earlier which was how do you make sure the audience has find it? I mean that seems to be the bit for me that's missing really that there's more and more platforms to show work in different ways and share work in different ways but actually then how do you really make them useful? How do you make sure people go to that? What's the sort of marketing strategy around that platform, I suppose? It's a really good question and it's a really big question as well because it's how in some ways what we're doing with the art player platform as a whole is to try and create another platform where people can let's go to and have some of the rambloing there, I think. Ask a different way around, might help you. How do you differentiate it from YouTube and Vimeo? Because people already go to YouTube. So why are they not going for art? I had an interesting chat with Tate Online a group and basically a lot of the traffic to their site comes from YouTube and Uview so that is actually where the traffic is directed to their site from. We are not building a marketing strategy to help increase audiences for the whole sector we're just trying to create a site where people can put their content on and we will look at how other marketing strategies might work around that but effectively I don't have an answer to that question. How are you doing it? I'm guessing eventually you are breaking through into commercial at some point so how do you generate traffic for both art finder of the site and the apps and things that you create for individual galleries? What are the tips and techniques do you think? Say that with your teeth in. Then I'm coming to a question. It goes back to partnerships because we talk about driving traffic not just physical footfall but we have a lot of backlinks. I know Alex went through our slides very quickly but making sure we have those backlinks and actually pulling from this I'm an idiot, tell me what a backlink is again. It's basically a hyperlink that takes you to directs you to the right places it's also how pages are ranked in priority for Google to bring in all those resources and leverage each other so that traffic comes from different places and that's a good thing as long as you're giving people a place to go and knowing that they have all these options and that same for the apps I think we're very lucky to have extremely engaged and enthusiastic partners and again we sort of have this expertise that goes into a much wider and diverse audience but we also acknowledge that our partners already have an audience in place and there's no reason why we shouldn't engage them as well so there is a lot of communication going between us when we make apps when we actually have more content coming in from partners to have them help us get the word out that these new products are available and if their general audience is interested then they can access it easily and is it paid for marketing this or are you doing it using clever internet techniques? We didn't really emphasize the social media aspect and again it's all over our pages but Facebook and Twitter being able to allow our users to actually share that content is a large part of how the word gets out so we use Facebook a lot in terms of if you log in by your Facebook account and we all know how people are using that a lot lately but we make sure that our message gets out to the platform we have Facebook commenting that's also shared on their platform so you can see that it just reaches out to various methods so I think it's important that we test and try out those social media and let the users drive some of that That's exactly the approach that we're taking with the art player platform as well I mean essentially the partners in this project are all of the organizations in the art sector who have their own marketing strategies the site is an aggregator for the content they're creating so what I want to see really at the end of the project is Twitter, Facebook and art player embedded into their own websites and platforms so it forms a part of the general marketing strategy across the sector to engage people or traffic people to the art player platform OK You'll be very patient in the middle, thank you My question was similar to Fiona's actually, my name's Emma Parsons I'm a freelance consultant I've heard a lot of case studies recently from museums and galleries who are using YouTube and their decision was based on that's where the audiences are now rather than creating a new platform use the platform where audiences are already going to for instance the Brooklyn Museum and the Guggenheim in New York have been creating their own channels on YouTube I'm just interested in what the panel think about using existing channels that are already massively used by audiences Absolutely, you've got to absolutely exploit those as well I mean most the feedback we got from the Tate when we were looking into research in this was that most of their international traffic their new international traffic is diverted to their website through YouTube so actually people looking for content go to YouTube first outside of the UK and we're not going to change that no matter how much you throw out a marketing strategy for emerging products you can't change the habits that people have created so OK, so why try to create a platform then coming from the floor well the platform is one place for all content to get put so it's a store effectively or an archive oh yeah no you would use that as well OK, let me repeat that for the camera why create a place for people to go to a new place when they're going somewhere else why well because we think it's needed because the sector doesn't really support doesn't really have as I was showing in my presentation there isn't really everybody is not capable of actually doing that so we are creating a platform but as I was saying we're also creating services to help create content to support that platform OK I'm going to come down here somebody waving a little orange pencil it has been for some time if you've got the mic go on you go and then I'll come down here let me direct the mic if you would guys rather than just positive Tekin Suleiman from Crowd FM I'm just wondering if you could tell us a bit about any difficulties you had in convincing partners to get involved with your projects particularly museums and galleries I mean what your platform obviously has benefits but the level of engagement and the level of work required to add all the content must be quite large how easy was it to convince them to be involved before you start within that can you talk about rights please I think it was incredibly difficult especially when we started the project we didn't have something to show and I think Alex brought that up in that everything is nice conceptually but it was very difficult to kind of persuade so there has been situations where a lot harder we put the idea we plant the seed and it takes a lot longer for that to kind of materialize then you'll find partners that are willing to take that leap and that chance and I think that's just trying to find the right fit and then what happens is once we've got now our platform we've got our apps I can tell you it's a lot easier to say this is what I'm talking about and play with it and that's why I definitely encourage you guys to just touch and feel and see it so I definitely wouldn't discount the fact it is very difficult in the beginning but I think you'll find partners that are also willing to take the leap because there's nothing out there or that they are looking for the same kind of synergies as you are and I think not to kind of take a leap forward just for the sake of having a partner really thinking it through because that's a long term relationship or at least you want it to be So how does it work on the specifics of rights then because from my experience you would tumble over a moment where everybody tried to decide who owned what you put on the screen how do the deals work without giving emotionally confidential things away I think with image rights I mean we deal with picture libraries museums galleries and artists so you can imagine that it's different for each stakeholder so some of them will say that the rights belong to me the rights belong to a third party you'll need to contact them so I think it's a matter of just understanding the landscape enough to say okay this is where we'll need this particular piece of information these are the rights how it's managed and again making sure that we respect the rights exactly the way that they've shared it with us Have you found they've fallen into categories are they falling into their three or four different groups of the ways you deal with this one in which you pay a sort of core rights holder one in which you revenue share there are various different models presumably down the line Yeah there are various different yeah I would say a mixture yeah Okay so that's a useful learning go to think about people who've learnt about rights Okay down here please Denise Farme Arts Council England Hello Denise I think what is very exciting about art player TV is that it does provide a editorial quality level that I don't think you can achieve through YouTube but the other exciting area around it is that it also provides you with a production team and skilled production team that can work with your organisation to develop that content and that's what we found through the research that Fact Under Talk is lacking in arts organisations current profile web profiles but what I don't quite understand is presumably you can't apply a licence fee to develop art player TV and you can't generate huge advertising revenues so what is the business model to continue art player as a service for the arts The business well effectively the business model is not defined so we are still in the process of defining what that could be but where we kind of started with this process of an art player TV platform was with emerging opportunities to disseminate content so effectively IPTV platforms I think it's in the brochure as well at the time we started investigating or building the model around how we might actually go forward with a platform we you view was very much in the public consciousness at that time it was called a project canvas which was an emerging as I say internet television protocol platform which would require new content so around that we thought well why not use the great kind of work which is being created across the sector capture it, edit it post it publish it and have that as a kind of repository for some of the content that could be used to create program for IPTV platforms for emerging to create content for emerging platforms that opens up a kind of Pandora's box of activities and shared you know partnerships with creative industry sector to production companies local to the area of the kind of organisations that maybe have a channel on the art player platform to create content around packages that could be useful for broadcast purposes that's going to start that's going to form the backbone of our business package in some ways OK we've got lots of people I've got somebody sort of three calls of the way back I think Andrew I have her yeah hello Hi claymackenzie, claymackenzie.com questions kind of for Roger but also I hope you don't think I'm being facetious perhaps a bit of a lifeline as well because everybody's sort of getting stuck on this YouTube thing obviously they are owned by the biggest search engine in the world so it's going to be very difficult for art player to compete in that capacity I think the training side of it will be very very useful because through experience people tend to be very very unsure of what to do and how to upload content so I think the strength for you will lie in the training side of it I also think you'll need to be careful about what content they're uploading in terms of perhaps advising them and guiding them on that I think if they just put up kind of sections of performances or whatever their sort of activities might be and dance I don't think that's going to particularly serve them very well online plus you have a limit for how long they can have the films and the videos for what I do think people will be interested in is not overly produced material that shows what goes on behind the scenes in terms of rehearsals directors, choreography and I think there's an opportunity perhaps there Absolutely, I totally agree with that I mean it's effectively what we're providing is an assisted service which is self-managed so the fact is sorry, the Art Player TV administrative team if you like if this rolls out further is not going to babysit every channel or every organisation that's kind of submitting content to their channel within the site but we will we will be offering assistance around production, around dissemination around the relationships we have with other production companies to help them create that content I do think the YouTube thing is a bit of a red herring because I think that's going to happen kind of anyway and as I said the the Tate will get a lot of their new traffic through that kind of route so yeah it's that, it's an assisted service which is self-managed because no one organisation could oversee the entire sector in terms of what content they publish that's impossible just here Manus Cary from Camerato again I have kind of a two-part question just to pick up on the whole business plan thing we do a lot of live streaming ourselves and it's incredibly expensive and it's an incredibly expensive thing to set up websites and to do all the work and create all the partnerships and I was just wondering are you both trying to create websites platforms that stand alone for themselves or that are there to lead on to the organisations involved and if the second is the case how do you do that so if I'm a gallery or whatever how can I ensure that if I'm involved that your website leads to me and then the second question is do either of you have any interest in creating any kind of income because there must be a massive amount of cost have you discussed ways to generate any income okay let's do our finder on those questions so how do you drive traffic back to people's websites or is it just about you and then where does the money come into this so the first part driving traffic we talked about that and I think one of the ways of attracting our partners is to say that we're going to give you the stats behind that because we can say where and how we're directing people to the site and actually in particular so I think giving those insights as to who's coming to the site what are they looking at that's valuable customer information and being able to share that with them and then we're directing them from our previous discussions to maybe your print on demand we'll do an affiliate link there or do you want them to go towards the exhibition and I guess again being nimble enough to understand where the traffic is really flowing and adjusting it so that it's actually what you want or best for the user information is definitely something we work with our partners to provide so I hope you like that if I can actually add to that as well I mean our entire concept of being able to explore art and share art includes exactly linking people to our partners I mean you have no other way of experience live art until you actually go to an exhibition, go to a museum so that is at the very core of what we're trying to do with our website is it too early to know whether that's actually working so the Constable app how would you track whether or not people have downloaded the app and then showed up more to the National Gallery for instance I know it's quite early but how would you theoretically how would you go about it I mean we can track these things and there are ways to track it through the people we've built and saw the apps through but it is very early so you could for instance give a special access code or a discount voucher you'd give a free cup of coffee to people who showed up for instance to track so you could be slightly counterintuitive about it and we are trying very different things I mean we have apps that are we have different well I'll speak to apps because I know more about that but we have different models as to how we create them and depending on your exhibition and not a content that you want to put in an app some of our partners for example have decided that well we'll do sort of a sample app that opens up your taste to the full thing and we have a promotional giveaways so it's really I mean as a company that's all very old we are still sort of testing which one of these strategies work best I think that the key part of the benefit of the digitisation putting that stuff on the web gives you insights deeper insights and you would having to measure people coming into your gallery and museum and they've looked at something you don't know what they've looked at whereas let's say we have our smart phone image recognition you take you know what that image is and it's a profile now you can go back and revisit it you can look at that one image ten more times and we know you've seen it like 20 times and maybe you're interested in that particular artist and so that's really valuable insights to recommending and directing users where they want to go so yeah I think definitely crucial and when building a plan it's important to have those metrics OK and how does money get made any of this and would you revenue share it or what would happen if there is any I'm assuming that it should must be at some point because you're going to be receiving grants for a long time well we talked about print on demand and that definitely there's some revenue sharing involved in that and we talked about of the apps as well Alex mentions taste or apps as well as let's say you get a taste of it you want let's say more images, higher resolution apps nowadays are not expensive so especially when you're going to museum and gallery and buying a guide you might just want that guide on your handheld versus trying to peer through and finding that place card information at your fingertips so there's in various ways I would say so a partner might pay you for an app or you might share the revenue from creating one together OK I've got a question waiting here and then I'm going to do one more and then we're done Joe Biccato from anti-limited just coming back to the commercials that's what I've been most interested in because probably everybody in the room here has got great ideas or great needs but one of the things at the beginning of this session was we were told about innovation in terms of income generation in terms of revenue streaming and I've been struggling to understand exactly how some of the people that you're providing products or services to will help you to derive revenue beyond being self funded or grant funded we've just touched upon it in some of the answers but I'm still struggling to understand how there is necessarily a viable scalable business model with the great ideas that you have so how do you convert an idea into something sorry from our point the business model is the only really exploitable business model asset that we have is the content that we create the things that we do and the more things that we do the better we do it the more likely we can redeploy that content elsewhere for our because we're creating new content possibly also posting up existing content through people's archives we're able to start looking at building models around as I said before around production services creative industries that create program for broadcast for distribution so those are the models that we're looking at I think hooking up with local as I said earlier local production houses organisations in the area of the organisations that have got the channels on the site you have to say redeploying it to create a good quality program which can then be sold locally, nationally, globally wherever we can that's going to form the basis of our business modelling around it I think I get that but do you have high overheads if you're looking at hosting, streaming video content how do you amortise the high overheads you may have in one side of the business against the knowledge economy or the service provision that you're tending to offer we're not intending to do streaming through the site that's not one of our aims although the broadcast group who are one of our partners are looking at models around streaming there are organisations within the UK and groupings of organisations and the cross art form venue network is one of them and they're looking at ways to distribute content through digital cinema networks so ticket and sales for new content that's emerging out of these developing platforms in some ways that CAVN network grew out of the work that the anti-live project indicated and the revenue models that they published around that as far as I could gather really actually very successful so there are new emerging distribution models for creative content and programme which I think are exploitable Okay so with you guys I think I'm spotting various models I'm spotting a kind of white label apps development this is for you as opposed to your partners so I've got a white label you make apps and then you can sell them into partners or revenue share on apps you've got traffic coming through your website which is potentially if you wanted to you've got advertising value you've got various referral revenue tell me if I'm wrong like print on demand you may have even ticketing on demand for big events that sort of stuff your partners are getting what they're getting their shares of that they're potentially getting more full through the gallery where they might charge or they might be able to measure against their grant funding applications what have I missed I'm just trying to get through this quickly okay there you go that's how art finder works when I should be investing later okay but I think these what's very interesting about both they're coming from different places to the same set of questions because you're I think I'm right in saying you had an R&D innovation grant initially and the plan is to become a commercialised entity whereas you're living more in the public public sector space to some degree so you can't kind of expect them to be the same particularly okay I've got one last question and then we're going to have our lunch because I have one need a sandwich this is kind of to art finder my question is in terms of would you partner up with maybe private gallery spaces or groups of artists and would they then be able to sell their products within the platform because I would really like to do that okay so we've got a business deal going on across the area okay so that's a kind of we didn't get that one thank you very much so can you do that will you do that is that a good idea so there's a really long answer to that we have the really short version of the really long one because I really do need a sandwich there goes yes I mean and we spoke a little bit about great so lunch no let's take the private conversation offline the answer is clearly yes and it's a really important sort of area but let's let them have their quiet conversation we are running a little bit later and I hate that in conferences there we go thank you so much to Roger, to Priscilla, to Alexandra for I think a very illuminating session


It's Gabriela, but it's kind of hard to speak my name in English, so Gabi's fine. I'm Brazilian. I came from São Paulo. I was the only dot on the word map from Jackie's talk, from Brazil there, so that's me. I would like first to thank the organizers for being so aware of the diversity that they bring me here to help you to improve the discussion. I must say I'm pretty impressed about the amount of women that I saw on this conference. I used to see 10 women out of 200 in some conference that I went to, and Jeff just showed me that we have almost 21% of women. I think it's almost 90 women here, so that's nice. Just to see there. So thank you again, and congratulations for the effort. A little bit about me, you don't know me. I'm not a jungle developer, not a python developer. I'm a PHP developer. I work sometimes with Node, too. I also don't have a degree in women's studies or anthropology. All of this is my own interest in the subject. I have a passion in technology. I'm majoring in digital game development, but I don't work with that. I'm a web developer, as I said, and I usually, in my spare time, I play with Legos. I have like 25,000 pieces, so, yeah, yeah, that's a lot. I know I'm a little overboard on that, but there's this new Lego set that's a Qwik in March from Simpsons. I want to buy it, but trying not to. It's hard, but let's see. So what do we expect from this talk? I want to talk about diversity and how bias can influence our decisions and what do I mean like a girl? Some companies diversity reports and how diversity is important to a company is some initiatives that are made and to some or sponsored by other companies. I don't want to talk about how one gender is different from another. That's not what this is about. And this is about how both genders working together can make a better workplace. So diversity. When I was a teenager in my biology class, one of the few things I learned because I'm not really going in biology was about DNA diversity. You see, species that have the most diverse DNA have better chance of survival. You can see that in bacteria, for instance, where they can appropriate other DNA from other bacterias to improve their own survivability. Although this is not 100% analogy, I think the idea is the same. The more diverse you are, the more chance you have to do something great. You have different types of diversity. You have gender diversity, you have racial. In general, I don't just mean male or female, you have a lot of transgender people, too.  I was at Apple Store last year, and I saw a girl working there. I think she was Muslim. She was using the hijab, I think that's the name. And I thought, that's awesome because they're not discriminating her because she's female and not because of her religion. She's just working there like anyone else. And I think that's great because you're not limiting someone in what they believe or what they are but in what they can do to help you. I think that's the thing that people should look for. What you can do to achieve to help you improve. Bias is the, we all have it. It's the notion that what we believe that people shouldn't or shouldn't do. We have this set of parameters that we built through our life experience. And sometimes if a person doesn't see the parameters, sometimes you get like confrontational or even get anger towards someone or get some kind of hatred. This, it is in a fundamental level what prejudice is like. You get, your bias can cause you prejudice. And these preconcepts, concepts that determines your actions.  And you don't even notice it. You just do it without noticing. Some, some time ago, someone, I noticed that people wouldn't sit down to me on the train. At the time, I was weighing way more than I do today. But because I was fat, nobody would sit down next to me on the train. And I noticed when I lost weight that people now sit down next to me. But I don't think they were like, I'm not going to sit next to the fat girl. I think maybe they did, but okay, some people don't even think. And you can maybe do that people of color or people from other religions, for instance. And sometimes it's so deep inside us that it makes these guys as a compliment. You know, you're pretty competent for a developer girl. The person who said that they're trying to make a compliment, but why? Because I'm a developer girl?  What do you mean? So because of that, there is this project for Harvard University called Project Implicit. They researched the gap between intentions and actions by measuring the response time between proposed situations. For instance, they have a task that you can measure the gender versus the science to see where your inclinations are. So they put a couple of words that are female or male and a couple of words that are science or liberal arts. And you have to associate them. And according to your time response, they will tell you how aligned you are. For instance, these are the kind of tasks they have. They have a lot more. And this is the one that fits these slides. And I did this last one. I did this talk last year. And I did this test today again. And these were my results. Last year, I were more inclined to the 6% of the population that did this test. I had more associated more women to science than female, than male. There is some explanation for that. In my case, for instance, I studied some since I was 12 in high school, where STEM area were more focused. So we had a lot of women there. So for me, it's more natural to have more women. But for the majority of people, it is. This is what you can see to the 26% and 28% of the majority that associates men with science than women. And today, I did the test again. And I was like, yay, I got the neutral position. That's what usually should be. Everyone should be that one. You shouldn't have any kind of association between gender and academic domains. But I think that's more because I am more involved in community now, more aware of people's needs. So you kind of get sensitive to what people can say, and you change that. I think if you care, you start to change. So why like a girl? To have something to do with a story that happened to me two years ago, I was working in a company. That's why I bought so many Legos. They made me work like 16 hours a day. And when I get home, I didn't want even to look at a computer. I just wanted to do something that had enough to do a computer. So Legos. And we were having this problem. It affected about 60% of our customer base. And the problem involved money. So every time that a problem involves money, a lot of people gets running after you for you to solve. And my colleague was working. He was responsible for fixing because this was a part of the project that only he had work. I didn't have any knowledge of it. So every five minutes, someone would go through the door and ask, did you solve it yet? And every time, every five minutes, people from financial, from HR, from every single part of the company. So we closed the conference room, turned on the big TV, and we started debugging the code. After eight hours debugging together, we fixed the problem, tested, patched, and deployed it to the production servers. Everything was working good as new. I was tired. I couldn't see more code in front of me for like two days. It wouldn't be enough if I had to see it again.  And I was like, I beg your pardon? He was serious. He wasn't joking. He really thought it was a compliment. Because he's my friend, I had some liberties with him. I could say some stuff. I can't tell now because of the time. But I wasn't mad at him because I knew he meant wow. I knew what his intations were. I like him very much. And in many cases, he stood up for me, helped me. So I didn't take offense. But it really stunned me. It was the first time that anybody had said that to me.  But it's like they weren't trying to compliment me. They weren't just trying to offend me. Just the first time that someone tried to compliment me and they offended me. So that got me thinking. As women, we can't fail. We don't have the luxury of fail.  That's why you made that mistake. And how many times have you got so worried about doing something so wrong? And after just paranoid, you notice there was just paranoia. And how many times have you heard women can drive? Like, I'm Brazilian. People that just scream on the street all the time, women can drive. Like, oh, they're pretty vocal about that. And they're pretty vocal about this, too, in the IT industry.  So you get paranoid. Because you can't fail, you work harder.  That's cool. What do you do, testing or customer support? OK. There's a lot of quality assurance people that I know they're really, really good at what they do. I can't do what they do. I'm not, like, discriminating them. But you have more racial women working there. Same goes to front-end. A guy once, when I told him I was a developer, the first thing he asked me, are you a front-end developer? Like, the first response I ever seen was, no, I'm a back-end developer. But why did you think I'm a front-end developer? Oh, because design and stuff. Oh, see. I think that he doesn't angle or react yes. Because I don't know that stuff. I wish I knew, but I don't.   And they really can have a weight on your shoulders for working in this field. And I think that for the past three years, you see more companies worrying about that. And they started to release these diversity reports. I'm going to talk next. And I think this culture is more common here in America. Everything's like a girl.   And it's the same thing as calling someone like a girl here. That's the same effect here. As a matter of fact, I do everything like a girl, because I am a girl.  Because I am a girl.  But another impact here is, where's the male lead developer in your industry can be demanding or perfectionists? We women, if we are demanding or perfectionists, we are bossy. And to put it mildly, I heard other stuff, but usually bossy, they tell. And I was working at this company. I was the only female interviewee developers. And she said, I had a coach, and she said to me, you know, you have a great responsibility here. I always said, also, as the only female on the team, you need to become part of it without losing your identity. So they can learn how to work with women without treating you like a man. And how many times have you heard a sexist joke and just ignored it?  Or you don't want to be that girl, the girl that complains, the girl that makes everything for a case. But this isn't healthy. So what she was saying to me is, I need to make my colleagues respect me because I'm a woman and treat me like a woman. And I said to her, this is a lot of responsibility. I can't do that. It's more easy for me to just let it go. And now you have to do that.  They treat me very well. Sometimes they do a joke or another that's out of place. But I don't know. They are too young. I think that's more because of their age but then because of their gender. Yeah, like 20, 21, they don't know. And most of the diversity reports I'm going to show here are from Google, Apple, Google, Apple, Facebook, and Twitter. I forgot it. I had Yahoo, but they didn't release their 2015 diversity reports. If anything about Yahoo, they count transgender people separately because that's not just binary. I find that cool because you have a different statistic there. You can see that nothing changed, really. But the good news is nothing got worse, so that's OK. Yeah, it's no worse, so that's improvement. You see that Twitter has four points more. And percentage is such a relative measurement because if you have one person and you have got two person, you got 10% improvement.  But let's say it is just for the sake of argument. And so in our areas, most companies have the same. You can grab these reports directly from their company's web pages. It will have not only gender reports, but race and ethnicity too, so it's nice to see. In fact, things got worse. Twitter had 10% before, and they got 13%. Now, I just read an article today from Intel. They double the number of minority hires there. But they got a program where if you refer someone that is from a minority and that person gets hired, you get $4,000. So money is a good incentive. But OK, they had results. And I think that these companies in general have really hard process of admission.  So that's OK. From the Apple perspective, the number is curious because Apple counts a little differently. Every female saleswoman on the Apple store is counted as a tech hire. I'm not going to discuss if it is or is not a tech hire because I try to see here as a software engineer, as a database specialist, stuff like that, not like salesperson. But it's their right to count as that, I think. But that's why their number is higher than the others. No fact, it's more balanced except for Apple. You see Facebook got 5% more hires from last year for this year. And to be honest, I don't think that 50% to 50% it's tangible. I think you should aim at that. But you won't be able to get that. And if you do, it's more of a casualty than a result of your efforts because it's just such a magical number. And I think if you aim it between 45% to 55% ratio, I think it's a good thing because 10% it's not a high off difference from one another. And about high level, high level they call senior hires are people managers, CEOs, CEOs, people like that. A study for Anita Bork shows that companies that have more women on top positions, they have better working environment for women on entry levels because women that are managers know how hard it is to be new at the company or be inexperienced. So they try to create a better path for women to follow. Not as a mentor, but just in general because they went through that, they know how that works. And you can see that from Google and Twitter have 1% more and the others have the same amount. Bottom line is it's more the same from one company to another. It doesn't change much. You don't have a company with 50% women and another with 10%. So you could say, this is a problem in your company. But what companies usually do is to blame on the pipeline because you don't have enough women doing STEM courses at college. I mean, it may be true, but you can only blame on that. There are women that are available for hire to be promoted and you're not promoting them and you're not hiring them. You can't maybe achieve 50% from one year to another, but you can achieve 55% to 30%. It's not impossible. But I only see company complaining about that. I don't see company doing anything to further that, to make it better. But why women aren't as much promoted as men are? You see, may have 2.7 more chances to be promoted to a high-level position than women. Because of that, I can see that I am one of these persons. I don't see IT as a meritocracy. Women usually don't, according to the study. That's not me that I'm saying that's the study. But I agree with that because I don't see as a meritocracy either. I see much about nepotism and favoritism. I saw someone before being offered a lead position because he plays soccer with the boss. And I'm a girl, I don't play soccer, I don't like it. And so, since it was an all-boys activity on the company and I don't like soccer, and they said to me, oh, you can go to the soccer game. You can make a barbecue just because I'm the women, again. Yeah. But he was hired, I mean, and I got mad and just left the company. Because it wouldn't make it better. He wouldn't change his mind. And I would be so frustrated to continue to work there, it's just better to leave. Companies that already have women benefit from the fact that more women wants to come to work for them. Because when I see a company that has someone that I respect from the community working there, I see they are friendly. I want to work there also. Are you hiring? It's the first thing I ask. And so they have this advantage from other companies because of that. And the lack of role models that was found on the study, it's not like we don't have female developers. There aren't role models. We do. I can't say about the Python jungle community, but I know a lot of good female developers in the PHP community, and they are my role models. But what the study means, it's inside the company. You don't have a role model inside your company. So if you don't have a role model inside your company, you don't know how far you can get. If it is possible for you to get there and to improve your path and improve your technical education because as IT, we never stop studying. We are always learning something. And in this case, the study shows that the lack of role model are seen as a problem from men and women also agrees that is a problem. But companies itself don't see that as a problem. Also, they don't see the lack of mentoring as a problem. But both male and female people see. Women values more flexibility than men. That has an explanation pretty obvious. This may fall under that category that women have two jobs. You work at a regular job, and you work at home. And I heard that it's a third job that is where you make yourself pretty because you need to be pretty. So you have three jobs. There is a book on that. I don't remember the name, a friend of mine said. But this report shows the majority of women that works in tech have a partner that also works in tech. And I think that it's like when you see a doctor dating another doctor. It's because the other doctor knows how crazy the hours are, how you have to pick up the phone and run away to attend a patient. And I think as we, our developers, are also like doctors. If something fails, you need to stop what you're doing and go there and fix it. Because it's not people's lives, but it's people's money. And you know, capitalism. But the same men that work in IT have four times more chances of having women having their partner being responsible for the primary responsibility for childcare. So the male here, they're here, have four times more chances to have their female or male partners, I don't know, taking care of their child. So if the majority of females have a male partner in IT, so yes, you have two jobs there. So that's why women value more flexibility than men. And men value more money than women. And this leads to a factor that's women living the workforce because of that. Not just because of that, but this is a contributing factor. You don't have flexibility. You have a job that's hard to be successful because you have less chance than a man to get a better position. And you also have the responsibility of taking care of your family at the same time. Another article I read today, it was about Apple and Facebook. They were offering to freeze women's eggs. Yeah. So they can work now and get work to be pregnant later. I was like, OK, I don't know what to think about it. But I think this is more a reflection of America culture because you have, Lacey was talking to me, you have 12 weeks of unpaid maternity leave. In Brazil, you can have two, four to six months of paid maternity leave. And you can be fired if you're pregnant. If you are, the company has to hire you or to restructure you with money for all the months you're losing from jobs.   So I think that's why they offer this kind of things because you don't have a good working law for mothers to take care of their child. So the more time you put off to have a child, more successful, you will be in the company and more indispensable. You will be so you can have a child later and don't have your career staying from that. And but I think it's one of those ideas that are a good idea in the surface. But usually it's not. In the inside, it's like someone's trying to make you a compliment in actually offending you. I think it's found the same category because this is my choice. OK, it's a benefit. You do what if you want. But if everyone is doing it, why you get pregnant now? Some expectations come.  You will judge you because you're going to demand yourself to be better. That's why. And I don't think that it's a good idea on the long run because of that. The same study shows that you have twice as many men in the proportionally, of course, in the high level positions than women. Because of this family and because of work frustration, women tend to leave when they are the mid-level. And you have more women on the entry level than men. Women leave mid-level positions as twice as much as the men. What does this mean? If you have five men living in the company every month, you will have 10 women living in the company every month. Because another symptom of that can be the tokenism. That means, I don't know if you heard the word, it means to have every women stereotype embedded into you and have people expecting you to behave like that. For instance, that workplace where I said about the guy playing soccer, we were doing a commerce, Magento. Every time the phone was ringing, I had to be the one to pick it up because I was the female.  I was like, OK, but I don't like talking to them. I don't want to talk to them. I work in IT. I don't like talking to people. I don't like people. So that wasn't the only time, but it was only one of the contributing factors for me to live the company tokenism. And if that happens to me, it probably happens to any other women there. Since I have a low patience, so it doesn't need much for me to just live it at it and go do anything that I want. I just don't get confrontational. It isn't worth it, usually. So why diversity matters? I said before about DNA diversity. And some studies show that the companies that have women in the board of directors get the return of equity or return of investment as high as 35%. Yeah, it's a lot. 35% is a lot. Again, depends how much you're investing, but it's a huge number, 35%. This study was made at Carnegie Mellon University. And another study was made to see how groups reacted when solving puzzles and doing collaborative tasks. They created groups from three to five people. Often, they are all males or all females. And they put only one male or one female in each group to see how people would respond. And every time a test was done, they would measure their IQs separately and sum it up to see how much the collective IQ from the group was. They discovered that diversity increases group performance. How? The collective intelligence is increased because of that. And when they increase, you have a team that are more effective. And they come with better problem solving and find better innovative solutions. How they did that? So groups were supposed to talk about a problem or interact during the puzzle solving. And they saw that groups were one person nominated. That group was less intelligent than the group where people were more collaborative to solve the problem. So groups with a better conversation turn-taking perform better than groups that were individuals were the majority of the problem. This is what they got. They're not saying that because there are women there, they are dumber. That's not what this is. Please don't interpret that way. What this means is it's the following.  And another group with only one women and they sum it up to 405. If you're like, OK, they're dumber than the other. But the only one women perform better than the group with all males there. That's because women have something called social sensitivity. It's higher than men's. So if you get the group that had the better score from all males and the group that had at least one women with the worst score, that group was even better than the one with the best score, all male. So you only need one woman to make things change there. This social sensitivity is a trigger for the number of speaking members. What this means is not because women talk more. That's not what they are meaning. They're saying that women are more engaged to have other people participating in this problem solving. So as women and women, we tend to have more, if we see six people and only one is talking, we go there and say something. We usually are more preoccupied with that, men are not that preoccupied usually. That's what they are saying on their study. So more ideas were exchanged, so they got a better problem solve skills. They also discovered the diversity powers innovation. In your field, innovation is like key for success. You see a lot of IT companies, when they don't innovate, they get behind. You see, for instance, Blackberry. But many people think there is a link between women and innovation. I think they don't know the cause yet, but they think there is a link. There is the center of talent for innovation. They found this correlation, but some things that can be sad are competitive advantage. Because diversity trumps individual ability. Company, there are more diverse, they are ahead of other companies. Diverse groups have outstanding performance. And for instance, in the academic field, since this is an university, patents and other studies that have mixed gender on it are cited 30% to 40% more often than only all males or all females studies. And it's called a page from the University of Michigan said, if people think alike, then no matter how smart they are, they are most likely will get stuck at the same locally optimal solutions. Innovating requires thinking differently. That's why diversity powers innovation. And it makes sense. If you're all women, you're going to think that way. If all Black males are going to think away, if all white mayors are going to think away. So the more diverse group of people you have, the more all the box ideas you have, it makes sense. But people usually choose to ignore it. Another studies from London Business School concluded that the optimal representation is 50-50. But it depends on the task they are doing. For knowledge transfer, experimentation, and task performance, it's 50-50%. But for self-confidence, it's 60%. That I think, and this is me thinking, that's not on the study, just me conjecturing something. That's when you're on a crowd and there are more women there, you feel more safe. Because I don't know where I saw this, but men are the first cause of women's death. If you count domestic violence and stuff like that, I think it's more about our limbic system that is made to protect us.  It only has two responses. And if you have more females, the limbic system responds, you don't need to attack. You can't be there, cool. It's more like a primitive response than a conscious response. That's what I think, but you can't spook that. That's OK. And I want to talk about this guy. Black-sized dude, the guy who does Cosmos, the web series. He has 17 honorary doctorates.  There is a conference in New York where people were talking, I don't know about what, but someone asked, what about chicas in science? And the mediator said, oh, someone he wants to talk about the generic difference between women and men. And he was like, hi, I want to talk. I never been female, but I have been black all my life. He starts. And he starts to say that working as a nurse or physicist was the path of most resistance to him. And I can relate to that, because when I told my mom, I would like to do electrical engineering. I did two years of electrical engineering. And my family were all like, don't you want to do business administration or nursing school? I was like, no, I don't. And he was told the same. So every time people would take you down to, they were trying to minimize your dream, to say it's not possible.  And there is a link I'm going to leave there. You're going to see. And he ends with that. Before we start talking about generic differences, you got to come up with a system that's equal opportunity. Then we can have that conversation. So it doesn't matter we are generic or different. We have different opportunities. A guy has two points, seven more chances to be promoted. And we don't have the same chance. So we can't talk about generic difference if you don't offer me the same chance as you do the other guy. So how can we, as a community, help to improve diversity? I want to talk about this. This is a project from a female called Developer at the PHP community, Kayla Daniels. But it's pretty generic. It's not just for women. It's for everything. I think it's an ecosystem to empower developers. And you have discrimination. You shouldn't discriminate someone because of what they believe or what they are. Boundaries, it's like your comfort levels are different than mine. So you need to learn to respect that. We are our biggest assets. None of us learned when we were born knowing everything. We all learned from doing our lives. So because of that, we are our biggest assets. So he turned the favor, teach someone, respect the finance, treat others like you wish to be treated. That's like everyone should think like that. I don't want to be mistreated, so I want to mistreat others. Just as simple as that. Respect the reactions require grace. As I heard my male colleague saying that I was pretty intelligent for a while, I wanted to punch him. But it wouldn't service anything. It wasn't worth it. So to think better how to respond to stuff like that. And opinions are just that, opinions. If you respect your own opinions, you should respect the opinion of others. So even though you don't agree, you should respect their opinion. And sure, it's human. So you need to tolerate human, honest mistakes. Sometimes people will say something they don't mean. And you should learn to not take offense on it. Because you're probably going to do it sometime, at some point. So that's my description there on the website. And you can help. Last year, we only had seven items. The tour is human. It's new. So you can always contribute not only for PHP developers, it's for the whole developer community. The other one is this one. I saw people talk about mentoring. This is the example we have in the PHP community. So people who have time available are listed there to help someone that doesn't know much. And this is not only for minorities. It is for everyone. So everyone can help someone. And there is an IRC channel on Free Notes at the case for PHP Mentoring. It's the same name. So I think you can take this as an example and took what is best and fit it in your community. It's just for that. It works. I have a mentor. And he helped me a lot to improve my performance, to improve my code. And I think people should. And I am mentoring someone else. So it's like you learn when you teach. So you should give back to others. And other programs that's more focusing on women. I can talk about the other ones, only from PHP women. But we don't only have women there. We have a lot of men there, too. It's all inclusive. Everyone can participate. We don't discriminate anyone. There's a lot of white males there, too. And they help us. And we accept any help. There is any help is welcome. And I think I don't know about the others. But I think the idea is the same. It's to be inclusive, not exclusive. Questions? Can the women who have had that question that she brought up a couple times, or this compliment, you are very talented for a woman? Can you raise your hands? To summarize, I think that was every woman in the room. I would encourage that discussion. And we could just keep going with our experiences as women. But I would love to hear more about positive forward specific steps that you've experienced. You said that you left a company. Have you had to confront anyone? And what was that like for you? Or something along those lines? I actually have a very confrontational spirit. But I learned that at work doesn't bode well to do that. But at the beginning of my career, I would say that for people's face. And it would mean usually me getting fired. Or people not talking to me for a while. Because I had a lot of anger, because I didn't understand why people were that way. And after a while, I learned why people are that way. And how can I? And I learned that being confrontational, it doesn't help. You need to be more, and don't mean for you to run away from it. But you need to show some thought about it. You need to show some data, because all of the stuff I told you here are from studies. Some stuff on another were my opinions. Because usually, from people from our industry, people rely on data, and much less on the opinion. So if you confront people with facts and not just opinions, it may be a little go better than just, why did you tell that to me? Maybe that I think it works better. But usually, me getting away from a company, it was me running away from it, from the problem, because I couldn't deal with it. And now I know a little more how to deal with that.  I live in Sao Paulo. It's the biggest city in Brazil. So there's a lot of jobs there. So OK, are you going to treat me that way? There's another company I can go. And that was more that way.  Yeah, I wasn't feeling like it. It's hard to explain, because usually, the people from HR doesn't know how it is to be a woman in the industry.  And you have to lie, because if you tell the truth that you left there, because you were treated badly, they didn't treat you with respect, they are going to say, this girl is problematic. People don't get that. Usually, unfortunately, I mean, there in Brazil, it's like that. So I had to say, yeah, the crisis, I don't know, the economy, it's something like that. Unfortunately, you have to go with that, because everybody goes with that. So they won't dispute that. But that's OK. Well, Red Hat has an office in Sao Paulo, and we would love to have you. I just got a job, but no, I can't change it. Well, thank you again, and.


For this week's Golden Apple, we go on a field trip with Lowell Elementary School into the forest. The Kindergarteners planted a tree and went on an exciting nature walk. Our Logan Gaye has more. Every year the Lowell Elementary Kindergarteners make a trip to the forest to learn about nature. Beginning of the school year we studied trees for our science unit. And so as kind of a ending project we come here. The kids have been taking care of a classroom learning about it, parts about it, and so it's kind of a fun way to end it. The Kindergarteners have been caring for a baby tree named Porky! While on the trip they dug a permanent home for Porky in the Kindergarten Grove. So they come here, they get to plant the tree in the Kindergarten Grove, and they revisit it when they're here for middle school. The Nature Field trip is part of a school district tradition. All the Kindergarteners classes in the Brainerd School District get to take a field trip here and they each have their own little section of the Kindergarten Grove so you can look back at years past and see the trees growing. And if students like the Lowell Elementary Kindergarteners continue the fun activity of planting a tree each year, one day they will repopulate this forest. Kind of a win-win. They get to kind of complete their learning with the trees and help out the environment at the same time. Taking students out of the classroom and exposing them to the outdoors is vital to their education. There's so much to learn from the outdoors. Kids are always very curious. And so the learning is endless out here so it's a great opportunity for them. And the Kindergarteners were overflowing with excitement of the day. Win, how trees grow. Because they have this soil that makes them grow very tall. Tall than us. And Baxter, Logan Gay, Lakeland News.


Okay, we're back real live, and that is Carlos Suarez right there, and he's at the University of America, the Americas Puebla, which is 20 miles southeast of Mexico City, am I right? Okay. Well, if you're walking, if you're walking, it's a big difference. Yeah. They're calling this show NAFTA 2.0, Renegotiating Free Trade, Trump Style, uh-oh. So can you tell our listeners exactly what the North American Free Trade Agreement is, and who it used to involve, and what it used to say before he pulled the plug on it? Let me unpack some of that with you, see that's a lot of information, Carlos. So just for me. So we had a trade agreement between the U.S., and Canada, and Mexico that was in place a long time. And it's still in place. This is that Trump has been attacking it, is that right? Did he effectively terminate the agreement? No. So his remarks have only been a statement of intention, and in fact the earlier agreement day-to-day still exists, is still there, is still binding on the parties. Okay, the other thing is, you've been following this year into international law, and in fact you're the director of the International Diplomacy School at the university in Puebla. You know, I, in my youth, and I'm still very young, in my youth I had never heard that the president would go out and negotiate or make threats to terminate or reorganize trade agreements, and that there was a whole, you know, group of agencies in the United States and in most countries that went and did this. The president himself would not do this, but, and I'm thinking, and I'd like you to just tell me yes or no, I'm thinking this is quite remarkable where Trump as president all of a sudden, without the benefit of those agencies, decides he wants to change it all, terminate it, modify it, whatnot. Is that usually the president's role, or have I just not been following it? Well, in a nutshell, at least in the United States, foreign economic policy, trade policy is divided, so the president does negotiate, and he is the lead, he's the head of state, so he can initiate a process of negotiating this treaty. It does not become law until the U.S. Senate ratifies it, so the Senate has the powers and the needs to ratify the treaty, and that's why, again, this is going to sometime well into the year where there will be a negotiation in the Congress to decide whether they accept the terms of this treaty or whether they want to be a work in progress, although the parliamentary system there, the prime minister does control the majority of the parliament, and so, you know, he can get it through easier. In our case, the president's going to have to negotiate. We will see what happens with the Senate. The House will have a say, but they do not actually ratify it. They can articulate their interest. Okay, the other thing that I thought I heard say was that the deal with Mexico was, at least for a time, going to be a separate deal, and the deal with Canada was going to be a separate deal, and it was not going to be like the NAFTA of the old time was going to be U.S., Mexico, and then another one for U.S., Canada. Where are we now on that? Are we back together in a three-party deal? The provisions, well, over the last five to six months, the U.S. has put the Canadians in the U.S. Each of them have their own different interests in a way that didn't exist 25 years ago, protection over pharmaceuticals and patents and digital, in some ways, just upgraded it to the moderate. It's not remarkably different than it was when he came into office, though, huh? A car can be assembled here in Mexico. So what about Canada versus Mexico? I mean, is the deal, say, on cars, on cars that's being made now that Trump is making with Mexico the same, the 60 percent rule, as a deal with Canada? Or is it different? Yeah, yeah. Also, Canadian workers, is it now a higher percentage, something like 40 to 45 percent of the cars assembled by workers who earn $16 an hour or more? And what that really means is that, you know, might be given some incentive to manufacture more. And here again, it's not an alternative to pay a two and a half percent tariff if you have, let's say, more workers from Mexico and fewer workers. They could do, for example, Mexico really is one of the main manufacturers to be redirected to Asia or Europe and simply go to a different market. Or some of them may choose that manufacturer in the U.S. or in Mexico. There's here in Pueblo. There's an Audi factory. I'm going to direct some of their... Yeah, I just wonder, I mean, what's the reason for insisting on a $16 an hour wage? Is that supposed to help Mexico? Is it because he wants to help Mexico? The workforce comes from the U.S. It's not clear that's going to translate to more in the U.S., because the U.S. itself is becoming a more robot-oriented manufacturing, more to support the workers in the U.S. and vehicles. So if it's being made more in the U.S. or Canada, the cost is going to go on the consumer. So again, who wins? Weapon, those costs to the consumers, and so it kind of washes out. Yeah, you know, before we take this break, Carlos, I just want to offer a thought I've had and see what you think about it. So, you know, Trump has been embroiled in the Kavanaugh confirmation, in fact, a country, if not the world. I'm sure people in Mexico watch the hearings just the way we do. And so the United States government is all distracted into this Kavanaugh confirmation. And all of a sudden, in the middle of that, we get the good news about NAFTA. And my reaction, my reaction is, well, this is a distraction from the distraction. In other words, this is only so he can say that he did something and get people's attention off this failing nomination. What do you think? What are the people around you think? The Greek or the president. Now, mind you, the way we got there was a pretty nasty one. So while the outcome at the end is okay, look back at the 13 months in which there was this nastiness towards the very strong partner to the considerable credibility of the U.S. The way we can't forget it was a pretty ugly process. Yeah, it leaves a scar somehow. And I guess I take it from what you say is that, you know, and you're into international diplomacy, international relations, and this kind of negotiation. The United States could have, let's assume this is a good result, and we'll evaluate that some more after the break, but let's assume this is a good result. We, the United States, could have gotten to this result without any acrimony. It would have evolved by itself with gentlemen sitting at a table, am I right? And that's what traditionally happens. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And again, because in many ways, even the way the U.S. came into this at the beginning, they were demanding some very just, you know, non-starters, some unrealistic, for example, wanted a punch, and you need certainty, you need predictability, and so I didn't see about these things. So that was just one example where the U.S. was very unrealistic. The other, and we can talk more about this after the break, is, you know, for example, the dairy industry in Canada, the president was obsessed with all this, I think, as a way of making it sound like he was going to somehow break open this massive market.  In the right context, what are we really talking about for the U.S. and Canada? So yeah, we'll talk about that. I also want to talk about the relationship, if any, between the negotiations around NAFTA and immigration and the wall, whether that played any role at all. We'll be right back with Carlos Suarez in Mexico right after this break. This is Think Tech Hawaii, raising public awareness. It's choose to treat it with the help of a physical therapist. Treat pain through movement and exercise. No warning labels required, and you get to actively participate in your care. Choose to improve your health without the risks of opioids. Choose physical therapy. To talk story with John Wahee every other Monday here at Think Tech Hawaii, and we have special guests like Professor Colin Moore from the University of Hawaii who joins us from time to time, who talk about the political happenings in this state. Please join us every other Monday. Aloha. Okay, we're back with Carlos Suarez, and he is in the University of, let's see, of Pueblo in Mexico. Of the America. Of the America. Of the America. Yes. And I will come down to say hi. Many of us really enjoy these conversations, and he runs the International Diplomacy School, International Relations School at that university. So he's in a perfect position to look at this objectively from Mexico. Yeah, so let me go with my question first, and we can go with what you were talking about over dairy and other specific terms that came out of it in a tripartite agreement. What about, you know, I mean, Trump came into office on the wall and being up on Mexican immigrants. So where was that, if this was such a reflection of Mexican-American relations I didn't hear anything about inclusion of the terms related to immigration of the wall or estranged children, you know, in connection with NAFTA. What happened? Yeah. Well, in effect they were delinked. They were not really part of the negotiation over this trade agreement. And maybe it's a good way of contrasting NAFTA with what you might see in the case of the European Union, which is a deeper level of integration. It is a trade agreement, a customs union, but it's also integrating social, political, foreign policy. You know, trying to create a, you know, immigration policy. Mexico, the United Canada do not have that. So this is really a focused trade agreement on trade and good. So much about these others. And, you know, Mexico will remind in efforts to address, and not just Mexicans, but Central Americans that come through Mexico. Again, they have been delinked. They are not part of this. The decision of the agreement is labor and some issues related to environment in ways that it didn't not sufficient or not. But it is important that we have to at least note that there was some. The question earlier I talked about the percentage that has to be, you know, assembled by workers that make $22 an hour. The way of trying to stimulate maybe some more production in the U.S. whether that'll happen is another question.  Yeah, looking at the dark side of the negotiation, suppose no deal had been reached. Suppose we were left with an angry Trump. Well, I suppose he's angry all the time anyway. But, you know, and no deal. And so he would go to Congress and or the Senate. He would say, I want to pull it. I want to terminate the whole thing. I don't want to nafta. I don't want to nafta with Mexico. And I don't like Canada either. No agreement. What would happen? And you can tell me about all three countries, but make sure to tell me about what would happen to the U.S.  And here, you know, a very complex set of issues. And, you know, for Trump and maybe those who see the world in this very simplistic black-and-white view, you want a simple answer to everything.  And so we have to, let me just show quickly one chart. I have the second one, which is a look at the, you know, pros and cons of free trade. Obviously trade affects different groups differently. There are winners and losers. In society, we tend to win from trade, but there are always losers. And they tend to be weaker. They tend to be marginalized, et cetera. And finally, the third graph I have here is a map that illustrates the trade itself that happens between these three countries. You know, a trillion plus a year. And in general, again, the short answer is that Canada sells more to the U.S. than Mexico. I'm sorry, than Mexico, of course it does. The trade from Canada to the U.S. is 20 billion a year. And from the U.S. to Canada, 280. So there is a slight deficit. Canada does sell us more than we, you know, U.S. sells them. With Mexico, it's also the case. Mexico will sell 300 plus billion to the U.S., and the U.S. will sell 250. So what we've heard a lot from Trump is that these deficits are just bad and simple because those deficits also mean that as consumers in the U.S., you can go to Costco and buy a refrigerator or a television or, you know, some nice vegetables at a price that would be doubled if you had to assemble that in the U.S. So consumers get benefits from it, obviously, and others who then begin to import it. I mean, even Costco has benefited from this trade in ways that are quite dramatic both ways. Costco in Mexico, Costco in the U.S., whatever. The manufacturing industry, they've all benefited substantially from it. It has shifted trade, no doubt, and there are jobs that have come south. But that's the nature of the global economy. The markets go where the trade will push them. Do you like this deal, Carlos? Yeah. Do you like this deal? I'm sorry, what? Do you like this deal?  Would you have done it this way? In substance, in terms? Or would you have done it another way? Do you like it? That's maybe some, you know, with Trump we've seen just a very different style that is both not just the changing of the norm. The United States in this partnership is clearly the U.S. has tended to kind of bully us. For example, one of the provisions that the U.S. wanted, which it did not get, it had to give up, was there is a dispute settlement mechanism in NAFTA. Whenever one of the countries feels they're being cheated or, you know, dumped a tribunal and basically challenged it, the U.S. wanted to get away with that completely, and that is the bigger bully partner. So, NAFTA was able to maintain this in the new agreement. They did not get rid of it despite what the U.S. was trying. And this gives Canada and Mexico still a remarkable way in which the Trump administration treated Canada in the last few days. We don't like that trade negotiator. The foreign minister of Canada, Christian Freeland, you know, just saying we don't like her as a person. I mean, they're very personal attacks in a way that you just, you know, it doesn't win you brownie points. It may with your base sour taste. Carlos, does this bring the negotiators for Mexico and Canada closer together? In other words, do they share ideas, do they share notes and share strategies against the U.S.? Oh, absolutely. And when, for example, when Canada was not included in, you know, six weeks ago, Mexico was very much saying, well, we want them, and every chance he could get, you may recall there was a strange press conference about them, you know, normally you don't do that, but again, everything is, not forget about Canada, and you know, this is a, and so they do partner and they help support each other. They have different interests, but in general they are very good relations. Yeah, and congenial, yeah. So one last thing is where are we going from here? You mentioned early on that not all the terms had been agreed and certainly none of it has been ratified by the United States Senate. So where are we going from here? Are there going to be hiccups going forward, even in settling this down? You know, he said, well, he made a deal, but maybe the deal isn't really made yet and maybe there'll be problems in completing it, am I right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, each of the three respective countries have, because of the parliamentary system, it tends to be a little bit easier. The majority controls the parliament, the prime minister is a member of the parliament, so he will put it through. Now it won't be without its own turmoil and discussion, and it is an election year for the next year too. With the U.S. Congress, again, the Senate, we don't know today what the outcome will be after the midterm, but today it's a very closely divided, you know, camp. The Senate must ratify it and that means there will be a discussion, a debate, a dialogue, and you know, there will be strongest because there's a very powerful support for it in general. And the same in Mexico. And Mexico has its own dynamic. December 1, so far he has been in terms of the agreement itself, but people will have interest in maybe wanting to fine tune aspects of it. So all three countries are likely to want to tinker with it a little bit, perhaps trying to keep the overall framework, but there will be a continued dialogue, continued negotiations. So suppose I represent, I'm a lobbyist, I represent an American company which doesn't feel it got a good shake in what Trump negotiated, say, with Mexico. I can go to my favorite senator now after whatever he negotiated is delivered to the Senate for approval. I can go to my favorite senator and try to change that and say, my favorite senator, don't approve that. Change that. I still want what I wanted before. And you can override Trump on that. This is possible, right? Yes, absolutely. Of course. So there will be, again, and like everything, it always comes down to a few key people, the sort of the swing vote that might be in the electoral districts, the cultural interests that want more. But I think my sense is that overall the agreement that has been, you know, outlined now, and we're just looking at the fine details, but overall it is not the, when Trump was announcing, we're going to do away with it, close it, you know, revoke it. That hasn't happened. And so that's why I go back to, really, this is a NAFTA 2.0. It may have a new name, but that's just changing the color of your tie. It remains a trade agreement between these three countries that simply fine-tuned parts of it on the margins. And it does add some new importance to McGottas there. So we might like the outcome. We have to be wary of how we got there. Yeah. And it sounds to me, we're out of time here, but it sounds to me like, that is the upshot of this, that the relations between the United States and Mexico, for that matter, Canada, have been damaged in the process. That's what we have at the end of this long-term and acrimonious negotiation. Well, thank you, Carlos. You know, I would just say, interestingly, with Mexico, it wasn't quite as acrimonious in some ways. It represents actually a cooperation, because looking before this, the U.S.-Mexico relationship has been very nasty and ugly. So a very different outcome. But with Canada, where the real naff team has occurred. Thank you, Carlos Juarez. The University of the Americas in Puebla, which is 60 miles southeast of Mexico City. Are you going to write? Straight East. Straight East. Straight East. I'm making a map. Thank you so much, Carlos. We'll see you in two weeks. Thank you. Aloha. Aloha.