So it is Tuesday, May 23rd, 539 p.m. And we'll call this joint meeting of the Ordinance and Charter Change Committees to order. I am co-chairing this committee, Ben Travers with Councillor Bergman. We also have with us here this evening from the Charter Change Committee, Councillor Doherty online and Councillor Carpenter from the Ordinance Committee. We have Councillor Hightower as well. I know Councillor Shannon is out of town and will not be here this evening but can appreciate your recording the meeting as I know Councillor Shannon will want to tune into it. I think based on our last meeting, the meeting plan for this evening as well as the meeting on the 30th are largely intended still as information gathering meetings. We have an agenda which we'll turn to approving momentarily, but it begins with a slightly deeper overview of some of the documents that are before the committee that Councillor Bergman will run us through. We're expecting HR Director Karen Durfey to come and provide a presentation on discipline and appeals process for other city municipal employees. And we will then turn to a review of the CNA report and to the consultants and their recommendations. Councillor Hightower, I know that you may be available to provide some feedback on that and we may have Councillor Paul in attendance for that too. That's just general overview though of the meeting. I think the expectation is at the end of each of our agenda items, if there's any public comment or questions rather than are having a dedicated public comment period up at the beginning, we'll have an opportunity for public comment after each of our agenda items and ask that folks, at least from my perspective, keep their comments and questions specific to the agenda item. But of course, as we go through the draft proposals and documents before the committee, that's pretty broad. So I think that would be a good opportunity for general public comment as well. So with that overview, I think the first item on our agenda is the adoption of the agenda. Is there a motion to adopt the agenda? I'll move. Second. I would second that. All in favor, any further discussion on the agenda? All in favor. Sorry, Councilor Hightower. No. Okay. Yeah, that's okay. No, all in favor. Yeah, aye. Aye. Any opposed? That's unanimous. And next item on our agenda is the adoption of our minutes from our May 4th meeting. Is there a motion to adopt the minutes from May 4th? I would move that or? I'll second. Okay. Is there any discussion on the minutes? All in favor of approving our May 4th minutes, aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? That is unanimous, which takes us to item 3.01, which is a review of the draft proposals that are before the committee. And for that, Council Bergman, I understand that you have prepared a little bit of a deeper synopsis. I know that we would be here for quite some time if we took a deep, deep dive on each of the items, but I'll turn the floor to you. Yes. You will see a lot of documents on the, posted on board docs, and it would really take several meetings of many hours to go through each one and then get public comments. So let me just say that, first, the charge of the committee has been, according to the resolution that created us, looking at the ballot initiative that just failed, the Charter Amendment that was proposed by the administration on December 7th, 2020, and then the Council's October 18th, 2021 resolution and the associated ordinance proposal, and we're to do this for a robust review. And you will see that it's posted, those documents that I've just referred to are posted on there. And so that's what we're gonna do. I decided that it would make sense since we're talking about oversight, and oversight involves, if we look at what the NACO format is, it involves both an investigatory function and that is the discipline process. It also includes reviewing and auditing and monitoring. They sort of use those, they're somewhat different, but they're fairly well lumped together into a different way of looking at them. So when we look at the documents that we have on our agenda today, and we look at it from the standpoint of the investigative function of a community oversight body, you will see that the December 7th, 2020, Mayor's Memo on the Charter Change Committee's proposal and then the Mayor's Proposed Charter Change in that has an investigatory function that PDF on pages three through six. So if you're looking to sort of like, okay, I'm gonna put these things in the baskets, that document you can look at for the Mayor's Proposed Charter Change at that time for the investigative function on PDF pages three through six. The next document is a February 9th, 2022 draft ordinance. It's called draft ordinance police commission oversight. And if you look at that document, part five, which is found on the PDF pages five through six is where the investigative function is located. And then there's another document which has, which is from April 4th, April, no, April 22nd, 2022. It's a police commission memo and a draft and related to the draft ordinance with their comments. And the part five, which is about investigation and discipline is found on page 12 of that document. We've got several other documents that seem fully within that function. The, I'm just gonna read it the 2022, October 20th, citizens complete process flowchart is the department's flowchart on citizen complaints. The 2023, January 26th use of force flowchart is the department's flowchart on the use of force. Those are all clearly within the context of discipline. The 082520 Burlington Police Commission policy on the role of the commission in the review of complaints against employees is also related to this function. And finally, the 101821 signed council resolution on the police oversight and accountability, the very foundational resolution. In that document, lines 78 through 90 and 106 through 111 are where the investigative functions are located. So there are three other documents that relate very, very specifically to the vetoed and defeated ballot items, those two items. That is the December 6th, 2020, police commissioners comments on the draft charter changes charter change committee's proposal for civilian oversight of police. Then the December 31st, 2020 mayor's veto of that oversight proposal. And then the March 7th, 2023 revised official copy of the official charter change. So you can see the veto message. You can see the police commission's comments on that earlier proposal from the charter change committee. And then you can see what was just voted on and was defeated this past March. And those are the documents that relate to investigations. And then there are three documents that relate to the auditing and monitoring and review function, the 020922 draft ordinance of the police commission oversight, except for parts XX5, which was found on, like I said, pages five and six. And then the other, the police commission's memo has their comments on everything. And most of those two documents relate to the auditing, monitoring and review function. And then finally, you've got that resolution from October 18th, 2021. And the resolve clauses in line 63 through 77, 90 through 95, and 103 through 105 deal with this auditing, monitoring and review function. So you can see that the documents that we've got cover the full panoply of the functions that a community oversight body would have with their police department. And I invite folks to look over them. I'm sure that we will delve into some of them, but I will spare you trying to do that. Because this was enough of a mouthful. Thank you, Jean. I think that that was a good review. I think, again, just as a reminder to folks, tonight's meeting actually unfortunately has a conflict with the police commission's meeting. And so we don't have representatives from the police commission here tonight, but we do have them coming in at our meeting on May 30th to as a body provide feedback on some of the documents you just went over. I'm mindful of the fact that the draft ordinance and the police commission's response to that draft were from that group of the police commission from last year or 2021. Of course, there's a number of new members in the commission. So we'll look forward to hearing their feedback at our next meeting. We do have a period of public comment after each of our agenda items here. And then we'll turn to Director Durfee. Thank you for being here. Karen, who no doubt will be able to provide some further context and insight into how the different proposals that we've seen as a committee play into the existing processes that are available, not only to employees, the police department, but other municipal employees as well. But turning now to public comment, is there any member of the public, I suppose we'll look here in person first that has any feedback or thoughts. We started this discussion in our last meeting, but we'll continue it now on some of the proposals that have been put before the committee or more general thoughts in the direction that they'd like the committee to go in. Yeah, go ahead. If you could just state your name again for the records. Yeah. Hello, my name's Dave Maher. I've lived in Burlington area for nearly 50 years. This is my first time in this room. Kind of a cool room here. Just want to say that I appreciate your efforts to improve police oversight, but I urge you to pursue an approach that doesn't hinder effective policing. As you all know, we have a problem in Burlington, and I have to believe that it's at least in part due to the reduced size of our police force. Last year in Burlington, we had five homicides and 26 gunfire incidents. I believe that's a record. We also have skyrocketing drug overdoses. So we need an oversight process that will help efforts to rebuild our police force so that they have adequate staffing to address these issues. And I think we need buy-in from the police department into whatever oversight approach we end up pursuing. I think the best way to get buy-in is to involve the police department in developing and implementing this new oversight process. I previously recommended a peer review process within the police department as a first step in any disciplinary action. That's one approach, but there might be others that are equally good and maybe even better. Whatever process we pursue, we need input from the police department and we need to take that input seriously. That way, I think we can have a win-win situation with better oversight and more effective policing. Thank you. Thank you, Dave. I suppose we'll go around for public comment, but then before we get off this agenda item, if there's any counselors on the committee that have any questions or comments with respect to the items, we'll certainly go to the counselors on the committee as well. But are there any other members of the public that have public comment at this point in time? Yep, Lee. And thank you very much to channel 17, time meeting TV for being here. Again, I live in Ward 7. Really excited about this process in taking public input. So something I really think where a new oversight formula could be super helpful is in the issue of public trust or lack of trust with the police department. I think this is where a really well thought out oversight could be incredibly helpful. I think a huge barrier to trust is... I can be loud. An element of the current model, I think is a huge barrier to trust, is regarding discipline because the only discipline we hear about is things that are so nuclear. They reach the public. So if that's the only items that the public has to be able to judge if they trust the disciplinary perspective of the chief, I mean, it's just kind of setting up both sides for failure. I think it is just as important for the public to see disciplinary outcomes that they feel good about. And there may be a lot of those. The negative ones or the ones people feel are inequitable may in fact be a very small percentage. And I think it would be helpful for whoever is chief for the public to be able to gauge their assessment and appraisal of where discipline's at with that. And I think, so the argument to that is the police union and right to employee confidentiality with discipline, and I think there's, I don't think it has to be an all or nothing thing and I think there is a way to disaggregate or aggregate data in a way where you can inform the public of discipline and also still have it be anonymized to meet the police union and the privacy that employees are entitled to. And I just think there's a creative solution. I think it's totally possible. And I just think I would really like to see more transparency around discipline outcomes. I really don't think you can realistically have a lot of public trust without it. Thanks. So we're in public comment right now on generally some of the proposals that are here before the committee. Yeah, Romeo, if we could turn to you now, that would be great. Thank you. My name is Romeo, I am a ward aid resident. I also work for Green Mountain Transit and do have a almost daily interaction with law enforcement for them to, who respond to our help when we need them the most. One of the things that I wanted to say and the best, not necessarily the best, but the best way to have a decent oversight body is to have an oversight that is separate, independent, that is able to make a decision without having to worry about them being looked over their shoulders all the time, provide adequate resources that can help and alleviate the fact that we don't have the resource that's not available to that specific department. Also access to critical pieces that is needed to resolve any outstanding issues for that specific oversight future agency or even the current police commission that we have if they end up taking that critical role down the line. Also another thing that I was thinking was within the talent and fairness having to recruit the right officers in the department. So that way that when oversight is done, that we have the right people who are leading the department also working with the public directly and as well as the ability to create a better trust format between the community and the public. So thank you. Thank you, Romeo. Anyone else here in the Fletcher room with public comment and then would be happy to turn to folks online as well if you'd like to give a public comment, please go ahead and use the raise hand function. Anyone else? I think this is right. We have some sort of influence in the city of Tennessee. I'm a future attorney myself. So I'd like to connect with my people. My name is Karen. People know me for a lot of things. The mayor knows me, the president knows me, everyone knows me. I'm known for being myself but I'm also Ms. Black Vermont back in the day. So black women with crowns, that is a thing in Vermont. I'm here for many things but I guess we're talking just about the police, right? Okay, so Mirad, I know Mirad very well. Apparently the man is a psychopedic mind. I told him, you know, he can quote Shakespeare allegedly. I would love to hear that. Anyways, my problem with John Mirad is that he is a man seeking power because I don't know if that acting career has really done a lot on him. You know, he wasn't JC, Mirad, like he wanted to be on the Hollywood stars and now he's back here being cop. You know, he was on 90210 if he's in the episodes as cops and now he's playing it in real life. And I just think that you're playing with people's real life so as long as you are reporting the truth, as long as he is not him and Mirad or not doing this bromance, that's all stay in power. You know, I do, and I'm a pretty girl so I don't fight. I like no violence. I prefer a peaceful environment. You know, women, real women enjoy peace and quiet and serenity and stuff like that. So I'm hoping that for this, I guess this new wave that's happening in Burlington, this new wave that's happening in Vermont, this change, this freedom, this opportunity for growth that we'll look at people who really just want to seek how they can aid others and not how they can seek power, how they can seek how to show others that they're so great because those people will become like I predicted, who is his name Del Poso? Unforgettable man, a forgettable man, sorry. Anyways, Del Poso, I predicted that he was gonna be gone by the facts. Everybody looked at me like I was crazy when I told him to resign and then a couple years later he was resigning. So when I told y'all he was crazy, no one listened to me and now look at where we are. So I just think that we need to really start listening to people when they start saying their opinions because sometimes like everything I've said have come to life, it's real. And then you guys realize you guys have problems in your police department and we're out of the police department so I'm willing to give John Mira a chance as long as it's not a power hungry grab. Anyone else? Thank you. Is there? Just to note that it's really hard for us to hear some of the folks who were earlier with us. Everybody who's turned our way, great. Like Ben and Sarah. Where's Ben? Look right at you. Hey Zora, you home? How's your tall girl looking husband or man? Nice to see you girl. Could you see me? I want her to see me. I don't know, I think. Oh okay, well did you hear me? Are the channel 17 microphones being fed to the Zoom or is it just this microphone? Oh okay. Maybe let's. Well pretty much I was saying Zora that when you see the chief and the mayor kekeying make sure it's not some power hungry thing that they have going on, that they're really, oh here I am, all right great. Make sure it's not some power hungry, I'm a little, there's black people here, gotta get some light. Anyways, make sure it's not a power hungry thing and it's real desire, real intention to aid others, real intention to see what is the need in the community and not just hey, I had power and this acting career and now I no longer have power but I want to sustain power and that means we all have to suffer because of that. We don't want that. And that's the way to shorten up what I said. But go back and listen to it again cause it was worth listening to. Thank you. Thank you. I thought I did this too. Well let's see, is there anyone else here in the Fletcher room in public house? This isn't here? No, I don't think. Okay great. And then we'll, okay great, I don't think there's anyone else at this point in time as public comment, I see online, Andy you have your hand raised if you wanna go ahead and just unmute yourself, thank you. I don't know the name but kind of call on the same lines as that speaker, the name's Fletcher which was brought up years ago as well. Like in my mind, what is beneficial to having some form of oversight is that we don't have what isn't looking like funnel to one or two people making a decision about what is impacting the entire community. So just referencing the citizens from the Fletcher that's affected to create their idea of meeting, where is that we need to move from and have needed to move from? So I just wanted to bring some attention to that little chart that's on the hand. Thanks Andy. Anyone else online with a public comment? Then we can turn back to the counselors on the committee. Please go ahead and use the raise hand function if you have a comment. Okay, while we're still on this agenda item which is sort of the number of proposals over the last couple of years that have wound up before this committee. Do any counselors have any questions or comments or thoughts at the moment with direction as to where we go from here on those proposals? Personally I think I'll have more thoughts after we've sort of heard from some of the other folks that are here, particularly after we hear from the police commission at our next meeting on the 30th but certainly I think any comments that folks have now would help potentially guide the discussion going forward from here. I don't know if any counselors have any comments or questions right now. Sarah? This is more on the question side and I'm looking at the flow chart. I don't know who produced it. I think that is as it is, which we know has a lot of issues but I just had, we have heard reference. There's no internal affairs function which I know some departments have and I don't even know what that means and I'm only just sort of sticking a pin in it because I would like. Oh, is yours, can we get an agenda? No, these are, I mean it's not an agenda but it's just if I print it off. Just because I don't understand what that function means and people bring it up. The other thing at the sort of bottom of the flow chart is the mention of the Vermont Criminal Justice Council and again, I don't really know what that is. So again, stick a pin in it. I don't know that those are, either of those are things we want to pursue. I just need to understand what they are. Tim or Zariah, any comments at this point Tom? Okay. Just Tim. Tim, if you have any comment. Tim is just, Tim is. I have no comments. Okay, thanks. Jean? For me, the proposal by the mayor on December 7th, 2020 is pretty different than the proposed ordinance that was put forward on February 9th, 2022. And I would like for the commission to comment about that December 7th, 2020 memo as well as to hear comments about, we also have their comments about the Charter Change Committee's proposal that was vetoed. We have not gotten any comments about the proposal that went on the ballot by petition but and was defeated. But we do know that some commissioners, not the least of whom is now on the city council, councilor Grant, supported the most recent proposal that was on the ballot. And so I would, I hear we have on them on record for the initial proposal. It would be great to get reflections from the commission about the defeated proposal as well. And it's sort of wide open. Things that they liked about it or areas that need attention but they wouldn't do it in the same way. Things that they liked and would really like to have put in place. Things that they absolutely think was the worst thing since sliced bread. So yeah, I'd like their reflections on that. And that's a lot. And I know they're meeting tonight and we are meeting again next week so it may not be possible for them to do it in one week. And I think that that is fine. But as we decide how to craft a change their perspective, because it seems to me that there is a desire which would be, I think there's a majority desire to put all or most of the functions in the commission. Whether it is as constituted now or in some other fashion, maybe numbers would be changed. But given that, I think it would be really helpful to get folks to weigh in on those. Yep. I agree with that. I think there's two things that I'm aware of that are happening at the police commission's meeting tonight. One is that I believe they are selecting a dedicated member or members who will continuously and consistently come to this committee's meeting. So I'm really grateful for the police commission participating in that way. And the other, as mentioned before, is I do think a good chunk of our agenda on May 30th is gonna be dedicated to the police commission and their feedback on a number of the items that you've discussed there, Jane. I think absent objection from anyone else in this committee, I think in addition to what we've already related to them, I think it makes sense for us to relate to them specifically your wanting feedback on those items you just referenced. Unless again, any counselor has any objection to that. Sorry, can we get the list of items again? I think generally speaking, what we've already relayed to the police commission is that we have their memo that at least that version of the police commission had sent in response to the draft ordinance. And there's some understanding that they'll be here to speak on that and how, if at all, the commission has shifted from the feedback that they gave at that point in time the notes that I have here on what Jean raised are sort of further directing them to provide feedback on the mayor's memorandum from December of 2020 and any position that they may have on the extent to which that memo differs from the ordinance that was then drafted by the city attorney's office. There's a proposed charter change that was put out on the table that I would like to hear their comments about. And then to the extent they have it, any reflections or feedback they have on question seven in particular from the last town meeting day. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, I guess I just don't want us to get too theoretical on what's happened historically. Like ultimately, I guess I'm as investigatory authority. Like I feel like just getting feedback on what that looks like rather than like the memo on this veto and the memo, like what they think about the ordinance. Like I don't think, I mean, that's fine. But ultimately, I think we're probably gonna do something which we, you know, the mayor's veto of the board who said like best investigatory authority within the commission and leave everything else aside.  To some extent, I feel like we're looking for just like a similar between those two things for investigatory authority. And maybe that's the simpler way to raise the question and maybe then doing a lot of feedback on things we've just had in the past. I don't know, that's a fair way. I know that Gene's been a lot of time on that. And I know that folks are aware of like what that was. And I don't know what he means, but particularly rather than like figure out at least to be raised by too much time on debating the fine points of a lot of things that we're not gonna really even go in. Good, Sarah. And then once Councilor Comments are done, we'll turn to Councilor Grant and then Jordan if that works, okay. I agree with Councilor Hightower. I think we could spend a long time looking backwards and we need to look forward. On the charter change in that particular memo, it's good to brush up on it, but it seems to me we first need to spend time on sort of the model process. We know, well, I shouldn't say we know, I believe we need a charter change at the end of the day and spending a lot of time on the words of a charter change before we know we wanna change. I just don't want us to spend a lot of time until we're agreed upon what we wanna recommend. There's a big nut which is changing the Chief's authority and we should have that conversation and then below it, and you'll know better than I do, are lots of nuts and bolts, but we need to agree on the big nut and then decide how much we wanna spend now on words of the charter or get to the model or the process that we want and then what do we gotta change to make it happen? Do you need to do some of them? Yeah, I mean, let me just say, my suggestion is not for them to go, to dissect it line by line. My is that there are big concepts in both of those documents that they should identify for us, make sense or don't make sense and then let us know that. And it's their reflections on those that are going to color. So it is that bigger concept. In a way, it's not a lot different than what you're suggesting, Zariah, but what it is doing is taking those specific ideas and getting their comments about them, right? Because at the end of the day, we gotta come up with specific ideas for change and we've heard new positions here and so we wanna be able to get their best understanding and position about these ideas that are out there. These are not ideas that because they're a year or two or we're defeated a few months ago, are like disappeared. They're live ideas and maybe not in full cloth. I'm not suggesting that, but we ought to get their perspective on that just like we're gonna get their perspective on the draft ordinance. That's all I'm asking. So not a line by line thing. Great, so sorry, I've got one more comment. Just because I feel like I've seen, like, to some extent, as much as like it was a painful process, I think the just preservation process was actually one of the best processes that we had in terms of getting to the thing just because very early on, we very quickly came to like, and this is the draft language and then we spent months arguing about it and I would much rather we get to like, either like a list of like, here's the decision points we need to make, which I think is what you're getting at, Jean, but I would just be much, I would want us to be much more concrete about like, here's what we're trying to make a decision on, like, okay, it must be toward a literary ABCD, like who is invested with, like what does that make for a living? What else do we have to change? Like to, you know, to start to have the outline, because I think we're underestimating how much time we're going to need to argue about it afterwards and to get public input about it afterwards and to think that's where the big work happens, that's where we get to compromise, that's where we get to like, things that we didn't think about and the longer we spent up front, just being like, what are we talking about? Like, why are we talking about it? What should we, the less time we're going to have to do the important work? And so the sooner we can get to, okay, here's the outline, you have to get to authority, ABCD, what are the points that we want to make decisions on that need to be an award, the points that we need to make decisions on that are the charter change, the faster we will get to like, here's what we agree on, what we don't agree on and the more public input we get on what we don't agree on. And so, I know that I said this really last time, but I really want us to get to like, what do we agree on? Like, what are the things we're making decisions on? What do we agree on? So we don't even need to worry about it that much, what do we disagree on? Because they feel like again, in the disagreement and getting to agreement is where our best work is going to be. And so, I'm cautioned us to be very, very clear on what we want in them. So I completely agree with everything that you've said here, Zariah, and based on my own review of the materials, I have my own thoughts on it. I'm eager to get to those decision points as well, but I'm also hard pressed to jump into that quite yet until we have the police commission here and an opportunity to hear from them probably at our next meeting. And so, I think my suggestion would be sort of after we hear from the police commission, and I agree we should ask them for sort of more specifics rather than sort of going on theoretically as to their thoughts on different pieces. As Jean put it, sort of what works from their perspective, what doesn't work from their perspective to the extent they're able to speak to it as a body, and then maybe our committee has a more sort of direct agenda item at our next meeting to talk about exactly what you're talking about here, Zariah, which is sort of building out that question list. So, I think this item, two chairs can get together, and I think make me outline of what we want decisions on before the police commission meeting. I would rather have them amend it and answer the points than us come up with it afterwards. So, if we can, if you two can make decision points, we think they are, then at least I think we'll have a little bit of a clearer framework for discussion and clearer framework for what our questions are, and I would want that before we bring in more folks. So, yes, we should have a police commission at the next meeting, but I hope that you all can work on that and then present that to the police commission. And again, that's not exclusive than anything else that you all maybe didn't put on it, but I think it's at least here's what we're trying to do. I'm resistant to doing that before, in the next week and before I hear from the commission. I would like to hear from the commission. I would like this public process to happen. I'm more than happy, because I think that Ben said clearly, which is we get the information from folks, at least at this level. And then we can start to focus more. So, I'm not adverse to doing that after that meeting, but I- I'll do respect Gene as a professional facilitator, if you're wrong, telling people, I just want your feedback is not more helpful than telling them I want your feedback on this and getting it, because it's fine, but that's just not like best, I think too often we get feedback at the very beginning and then to make a whole bunch of decisions and then we say, well, we made this decision, based on initial feedback, it's too late now for additional feedback, and we really should be getting feedback in the middle. But that's my philosophy on public engagement, but I think we do it wrong most of the time. We won't fight in public here, Zariah. We'll fight in private. Well, and just to sort of go back to it, and then happy to turn to Councilor Grant. I mean, my own thoughts on what the Police Commission would present on at our next meeting is I do think that, and again, we'll see if they're still in the same place as they were. What's the date of this memo? April of 2022. But I do think their feedback on the draft ordinance that was put together is pretty specific in a way that I think will be helpful for the purposes of our discussion. It starts with at the very beginning, to the extent the Police Commission is set up with some investigatory authority, what should the breadth of that authority be? Does it cover all complaints, including internal complaints? Does it only cover external complaints that are filed by residents, or would it cover internal complaints from other officers as well? It talks about the size of the Police Commission and whether or not terms should be staggered. It talks about the type of authority the Police Commission would have to say, issue subpoenas and gather additional information. So I'm hopeful that they will get into the weeds a little bit and perhaps we can be a little bit more pointed between now and May 30th as to sort of where they are on the specific proposals that were put on the table on some of these other items. Do they ever do any such? Who? Do they? Who's they? The Police Commission people. Because you know that's the thing that they have found the police is that they do stuff on it in darkness. Well, sorry, I'm sorry to interrupt. The Police Commission is not the police. The Police Commission is. Right, so, okay. All right, thank you. Yeah, do you want to turn to Councilor Grant first or do you want to go? Jordan? I'll just be really brief, which is that I know I committed at the last meeting that we would have a memo prepared by this meeting on the mayor's position with respect to police oversight charter change. And we are still working on that document. But as we consider feedback, I want to make sure that we are giving the Police Commission and the committee the correct position to respond to in the mayor's most recent position. And it has evolved and gotten more specific since the veto memo. So that is forthcoming. And I just want to, I would ask that we not ask people to the Police Commission to respond to the veto memo because the mayor's position has refined more so after a year of working through police disciplinary processes.  It was, I said that the mayor's position on what a charter change should include has evolved since he wrote his veto memo after we've spent a year working under the new Police Commission complaint policy and the mayor's executive order about reviewing use of force incidents. I totally support getting all that stuff. I think the ideas in the, and it's not the veto memo, but the memo before that a couple of days, well, a few weeks before, are worthy of looking at. There's good ideas. I'm not saying that these are the mayor's position now and that should be acknowledged by everybody. I acknowledge that, that you all have evolved, but there are important ideas in here that should be looked at or integrated or people should do what Zariah is suggesting at some point in time. Just one more thing that I want to say. I hate to add one more document to the list of documents, but something that we in the mayor's office have found to be very useful and I would advise, and I'll circulate it amongst the committee. I would advise all committee members to review is a memo that then city attorney Eileen Blackwood wrote describing police oversight models in several different cities and how they worked. It was very comprehensive and useful and I think it would be helpful to the committee to understand what different models and other cities have looked like and the mayor has based his position in part after considering those models and other cities. I think it's a point that's well taken, Jordan and Cam, are you able to add attorney Blackwood's memo to board docs for that purpose, okay, thank you. And the latest iteration of that because there are three or four different versions of that based on the conversation at the Charter Change Committee, which I have somewhere buried in some folder here. I think it's a good point that's well taken, I have somewhere buried in some folder here. So I know we have Director Durfee here for our next item. I see Councillor Grant as her hand up. Milo, do you have a comment? Yes, so some of the things that were on my mind were said and I kind of come down in the middle as someone who's been living this, breathing this for almost four years. We definitely want to get the police commissions kind of opinion in terms of what they want to see in an oversight model. And the reason we want to do this is because we have all of these documents and while they have the mixture of some good ideas, there's also ideas in there that's meant to suppress oversight. So we really want to be careful to believe that anyone who's not read through these that's on this committee should and should be going through the CNA is a lot work but in order to be fully informed and to avoid and talked about over and over again. We're dealing with a topic that there have been some who have been very, very engaged and are very well aware of the progression of the conversation in this community and the progression of the work on the police commission and then there have been others who have been the exact opposite. So everybody's got to kind of comment a little bit because I get a little bit frustrated and I don't speak because once again I've been reading this that, oh, we got to talk about this again. We've already gone over this how many times but I'm trying to make sure because I understand okay, now we're getting to the point where the city council made a promise to come back to this after something quite frankly was abandoned because they saw that this was still an issue in the community and this issue was not going to go away. Other thing I want to make sure is that in our overall understanding that this is about protecting the residents of the city. The police department has its own process and they make their decisions and the citizen oversight board is there to help protect residents and they can't lose sight of that. And I feel that that gets muddled sometimes. I don't go back and I'll look at that document from Eileen Blackwood but I'd prefer to use examples like the commission and oversight board and be a dedicated, I think that's something we should really be looking at. At times, I have respect for attorney Blackwood but her opinions were sometimes very, very conservative and didn't really address what was happening in our city and didn't really address the changes that our society, not just in Burlington or Vermont but in our country are demanding. So we have to be honest about these conversations as well. And I think one of the core reasons why having a lawyer has been so helpful is the lawyer is there for the work of the commission as an oversight body and is there for the residents of Burlington whereas the city attorney's office has been there for the city and for the police department and somehow we are going to have to understand why it has to be kept separate so the city hasn't always been there for the residents. Thank you. Thanks Milo. Any other comments, questions from counselors? All right. Director Durfee, thank you very much for your patience. Appreciate your being here. Why don't we move this mic down in your direction a little bit further? I know you had prepared a presentation. If someone, what would you want someone to do? Yeah, I sent it to you and attorney, someone, not you. The wrong, I didn't know you'd be here. Hi Kim. Hi everybody. Kim, I'm just going to forward it to you if you're able to share it on this screen. So hi Zariah. Zariah serves on the HR committee too. So we hope to, it's a great group here to talk about internal discipline. I'm just going to go over the city's process about this is what we do internally. So that, cause I find I was police commissioner too with commissioner Grant honored to serve alongside of her was appointed by the mayor in 2021 right directly after that work. You know, I'm here directly as a result of that work and doing work internally. So I think it's really important and one of the things that I found valuable as a police commissioner was what's the internal process? What does the contract say? What happens inside? Because to me as a person, you need to know that. That's something that we need to let folks know and get that information out to the community because we as the administration take feedback too. And I am part of the administration now but I also, and I'm a Brolin Tonian. I live on North Avenue and I'm very invested in this topic. So thanks for having me. And as soon as we can share screen, I will, my presentation is not riveting but I think it's really makes, I think it makes sense to share with the public and everyone who's commented what can happen? What, to what extent is the city involved? Because the police do have, as you'll see in my presentation, some differentiations. The city has four unions. BPOA is one of them. It's the, that is the police union and I'm just stalling as I try to wait for the screen. Did you get it? I did. Okay, great. And so, oh good. And so just talk about this really quickly for my portion of the meetings. This has been asked of me from the police commission and I did not know they weren't gonna be here. So I think it's really important. I wish they were here. I kind of wanted to like whisper to somebody. I should leave and come back for the next one but hopefully there's a time when this information can be shared. And I speak with Stephanie Seguino quite often. So she has asked just to be clear the police commission would like to see this too. So you can go to the next slide. So as I said, we have four contracts which include discipline clauses. We also have a comprehensive personnel policy manual that applies to all city employees. Can you minimize that window? Oh, you're trapped. Let me, let me, I'll get it. You keep going. The world of hybrid meetings is challenging. Okay, great. So thank you, Kim and Ben. So the city has four contracts and I think the one we're focused on is the police contract here. The personnel policy manual applies to all city employees. So if there's an infraction, it governs those infractions. The police are not exempt from that manual. Department of Directives, the only department that has directives is the Burlington Police Department. They have 29 directives and that hyperlink goes right to the website. Anything I say here can be found on the city's website including the contracts. The contracts are on the human resources page and you can download a PDF and read through those. The personnel policy is also on the city's website and the police directives are also on the website. So I'm really happy to hear about transparency and the need for transparency because we do try to put this out here. We just need to talk to the people about them. So next slide. So the policy manual, the purpose of the policy manual is to combine in one place personnel policies and benefits applicable to city employees with the exception of the school department. It says they're covered under a collective bargaining agreement. Not everybody is. That's sort of incorrect. But if these policies conflict with any other policies contained in a contract or any bargaining unit recognizing the city, the contract shall supersede these policies for any member of that union. Now when I got here in 2021, I read the police contract. Milo and I read the police contract and there isn't anything that is conflicting in the BPOA contract. I really worked hard to make sure that that is aligned and we should be making sure that's the truth in all contracts. Next slide. We have three policy violations. Just wanna cover. So we're talking about the policy manual. There's two primary sections in the policy manual if you're referencing it. And again, this is gonna be a document of the committee, I know. But please give these a look. The most prevalent section is section eight, which outlines the expectations around employee behavior and section 12, which outlines policies pertinent to the use of city property. So any violation of policy can be grounds for progressive discipline for anybody.  It's for everybody. Next slide. And I think most folks in this room have read the department directives. AFSCME recognizes these directives. The departments may, this is our policy manual. So departments may develop their own department directives for the administration of their department and encouraged to use a similar employee involvement process. I'm not gonna read this whole thing. It's right on the website. You can see the rules, the directives. In that way, there's an extra level of behavior that's expected. And so some of the directives would include conduct unbecoming. So that's the one that I see. And I do see all of it, just to let you know. But I do think that's a good example of a rule. That they might have. And I encourage everyone to really look at those rules on the website. The contracts and progressive discipline. These are just all of our unions. These are, and I think this is posted, but so for your reference, I wanted to put here that you can look at all of the discipline that's contractual on the city's website. Just wanna point that out, because I know when I was on the police commission, this was really of great interest to me. How does this compare to that? Is there just equity among all of these? And I find them to be very similar, but I encourage you to take a look at that next slide. And then this is specific to police contract. Their discipline clause is the Article 15, quality control performance counseling and discipline. And it just, there's a little blurb under here talking about lower level infractions of policy and procedure typically result in a coaching. That is the same for all employees, training or counseling. This would be something like I, my uniform is dirty, they can't, they have protocols around their uniforms. My paperwork is late, I'm not doing some low level tasks. Maybe I'm not getting along with a coworker at a very low level. Mid to high level, mid level infractions are repetitive lower level infractions are generally handled at the lowest possible level. But again, I want folks in this room to know, to your point, Chief Mirad, I've worked hard to have a relationship with the chief. And I really do want to be involved in everything. I think this environment, the moment that we're in is really critical. And so I do appreciate the level of transparency that I enjoy as director of human resources in the city of Burlington. So we'll go to the next slide and we'll talk about higher level infractions. Yep, just, I don't know if it's probably here or later. If you let me go to the slides, I promise I'll answer your question. Okay. Because it might be later. Okay, higher level infractions could result in more substantial discipline. These could be a variety of issues. I could see I spelled veracity, good spell check, Karen, as the variety of issues. Harassment, excessive use of force. These are the ones that, there are laws that govern excessive use of force, known associations with targets of investigations or criminals, abusive authority, failure to follow orders. Again, this is all online and you can read this, but you need to really familiarize yourselves with what is considered a higher level infraction. And actually there's a big list on our website and in the policy manual. This is abbreviated for this meeting. Mid and high level infractions can result in a written reprimand. That process is a process that involves me by the contract and can involve the mayor. If we're talking about reassignment to motion, unpaid suspension, dismissal, things of that nature, it does involve me and a lot of other people. I like to be involved in, I mean, I don't enjoy discipline, but I do think, again, the moment that we're in it's important. Right, next slide. The discipline process for everyone, and this is more broad for city employees. I already talked about lower level infractions. Discharge, if someone's gonna be leaving, that definitely involves the HR director's city attorney's office and the department head, and it can involve the mayor's office. All employees are entitled to an appeal discipline and through a grievance process. It does depend on what union you're in, but those processes go to the next slide. So just so everyone knows the differences, I think it's just as important to have facts about the differences. If I'm in AFSCME, and I know we have AFSCME representation here on the call, if something can't be resolved on a step one grievance, if something is not, a grievance is when someone thinks there's a violation of contract and it's brought up by an employee, so I can grieve the contract. And I think this is really important because these are processes that all city employees go through. Agreements is sustained when an article of any contract is perceived. Again, that thing is in my way, but that's okay. As a contract violation, for example, step one grievance is sent to a supervisor or manager. It might be like a scheduling issue or a seniority issue. These are lower level infractions. We expect them to be resolved at the department head or manager level. But if there's a step two grievance, and I think this is what's really important about oversight and transparency, AFSCME and IBEW are two unions. If the issue cannot be resolved, it does go to the HR director and HR policy committee, which Sarah is here tonight. Sarah is the chair of that committee. Zariah is a member of the committee and Hannah King is a member of that committee. So if there's a grievance, the union will come. I'll be there. The committee will be there. And the committee will be asked to make a decision on the grievance. The police commission hears step two grievances for the BPOA. And as a police commissioner, I always thought this was really important. If there is something internal going on and there's a grievance against the chief or the administration of the police department, that police officer can say, and the union can say, okay, no, we want to take it to a step two and it will go before the police commission and the police commission will be involved in that decision process. The fire department takes their step two grievances to the fire commission. And I think step two grievances are so important because these are internal issues, but I think the public deserves to know, like public bodies preside over these. And so whenever we take something, we can't resolve something. The public is invited. Nobody comes to our committee meetings, but they are 8.30 on Friday mornings. But if we have a grievance, we warn them just like any public meeting. And so this can be seen. And I think I'm not sure I'll have to ask the attorney's sort of input. The police commission, when they preside, or Milo, when they preside over step two, that is a closed meeting or is it, yeah, it's closed. Yeah. And there's the city attorneys there. And so that's a process that, again, police commission as the oversight body gets to hear that process. If it can't be resolved, the issue could go to arbitration. So again, as a member of the public, I'm really interested in this kind of stuff. Who hears it? Who sees it? It is an employee issue, but it could involve another employee. It involves a work environment. And I think that's all important when we think about the police as a body. Next slide. Sorry, can we send this thing just by a clarification question? I didn't answer Sarah's question. So, no, I'm kidding. Go ahead. I have a question. This is just a clarification question. So two treatments is not necessarily a higher level of fraction, but can you just talk a little bit more between a step one and a step two? Sure. What kinds of people move on to step two? Why they move on to step two? Sure. And what your, like, how the process changes at that? Yes, yes, and it's a good point. So, you know, if a person, if the union wants to move right to the step two process, it can do that. For example, I mean, I don't have a really good example because, again, I'm not in with the police commission. But if the step two grievances that I would get, maybe from an absolute member, would involve, you know, something maybe that's repetitive that they feel the committee should adjudicate. So, say, for example, it's an article that keeps coming up, filling positions over time, something that has come up again and again. And, you know, the union for whatever reason feels that they have not gotten the resolve, they may escalate it. AFSCME does a really good job of having conversations with people. They really want to, you know, talk it through and resolve it at the lowest level. So, you can move around to your point, Councilor Hightower, the unions can move around if they want to elevate something. And, you know, just like anybody, it's because an issue, they want a bigger body to hear the issue. When the police, you know, grieve, and it goes to the police commission, you know, they're asking the commission to make a decision on something that internally they feel as employees may or may not have been fair. Does that answer your question, Councilor Hightower? That does answer the question. And then I don't know if you have a sense of, like, it seems like group step one is pretty normal, I guess, every day. Like, what is the level, like, how often do we see things go to a group as like step two across the city? Because you're always involved in step two, right? Is that true? I am notified of step two, and I do try to attend police commission meetings. If there is a step two, there's been one since I've been here in the police department, and I did intend attend if I don't get an invite, I invite myself. And I stepped, when I first, Sarah, Sarah and I first got together, the city was coming back from COVID, workers had been essential, and so as people started coming back, there was natural conflict beyond a step one. You know, folks really needed to learn how to talk to each other, but by and large, I grievance that step two that goes to the committee is rare. I'm gonna go ahead and knock on some plastic here because I'm gonna jinx myself as soon as I say that, but it is very rare, and again, arbitration is something that's even rare. That's, and sorry, so you said only one went to the HR policy committee, and you know, one went to the police commission? No, when we first started, we had about three. Yeah, at least three, and they all actually were resolved at that level. You know, it's again, people wanting to be heard, people wanting to make sure that, you know, and a new director will do that too, right? Like a new HR director, we want to bring these issues to you, and I think that is a fair and really good public process, I was impressed by it, and it really taught me a lot about the city right away. Good things. Thank you. Thank you. So, is there one more slide here? One more, we're wrapping up Sarah, is there? Okay, so the discipline process, this talks about discharge. All union and non-union employees are entitled to a pre-termination hearing. If the union, in the union it's often called a louder mill hearing, which is part of the due process. That's for everybody. The requirement that must be provided to a public employee prior to removing or impacting the employment of property right. In such a hearing, the employee has a chance to provide additional details prior to termination, and I think this is really important that the public knows that this exists. This is a mechanism that is extended to everyone, including the police, it is in their contract, it's also in the policy manual. If and when an employee is involuntary discharged or terminated, they have the right to appeal the decision under the section 9.4 or 9.5 of the police manual. Ask me, raise their hand, okay. I'm reading the screen, because I can't really see anybody anymore. So the appeal is heard by the Human Resource Policy Committee. So if I'm discharged, even after I'm discharged, I have the right to appeal that. And I can, if I'm an employee and I say, you know, hey, I want to go in front of the committee, which is an arm of the city council, you have that right, so. And that's gonna conclude, I see a lot of questions that concludes my presentation. And I think Councilor Carpenter wanted to make a comment. If I have this right. I know that you have staff, liaisons in your office that work with each of the different departments, like DPW, and I presume part of their role is if a manager is having an issue with an employee, they would consult and talk about what do I do next? Do you have that kind of relationship with the police department? So you have an employee that could meet with the supervisor or manager of the police departments before level one, or after level one, or level two, to talk about like what to do next and get coaching on, yeah, like management issues. We could talk about management for a long time here tonight. But I would say that it became clear to me very early on that I wanted to be involved in the police discipline. So the folks who report to me who cover the departments, who are liaisons to the departments, they will handle things like how to do a coaching, administrative forms, they might come and talk to me about something low level, but if it is a discipline matter with police, it is always me. It should be the director only because no one, I mean, we all know that I wanna be involved in these high level things, but it could be as simple as just calling me and saying, and the chief is good about this, he'll call and say, I have something, let me run it by you. And so I have really been the liaison for the most part, myself, my assistant director, currently Tim Clancy, who worked for the state of Vermont, is handling, and I think it's the same for AFSCME too, IBW is sort of silent because it's sort of its own entity, but if it's something that we need, if it's impacting work culture and people's, I haven't been here long enough to let those go beyond my desk and I wanna get involved. If it's more than a coaching, more than a conversation, and I wanna mention too, that as people come back to work in person, there are what we might have considered before COVID, lower level things that people, that I think healing the work culture and getting everybody working together and making sure that people are on the same page. I don't think there is a high, high level. I wanna be at that level with the employees. My duty is to the employees. So I tend to get involved in anything that I think needs my attention.  No, but I'd like to be involved. I hope that answers, okay. There were three folks that had their hand raised, not on the committee, so why don't we turn there and then we can come back to see if there's any questions from the council. Bruce, you had your hand raised first, then we'll go Romeo and then Andy online. So, Bruce. Hello, City Councilor. Hello, Honorable City Councilors. HR. Chief. Zariak needs you to, do you need him to turn to the camera or? You want him to come over here? I don't know. Is it the disc? This is the microphone, I believe. Okay, this is the microphone. Bruce, take that microphone there. Oh, take this one? Don't, it's not very long, so you might wanna come over here. Oh, that microphone. Oh, don't unplug yourself. Don't unplug it. Speak. Now you got two microphones. Two microphones. And like I was saying, hello Honorable City Council peoples. Thank you for allowing me to ask this one question. HR and Honorable in the Mayor's Office. Thank you. So, I looked over to Burlington Police. Well, first of all, I sit on a lot of boards and commissions. One thing, one commission I'm very proud of, I'm a commissioner for the Human Rights Commission for the State of Vermont. And so, I looked over, and I'm not actually really proud of this one, but I am one of Vermont State Police, Fair and Partial Policing and Community. But when I look over to the Burlington Police Department's website, I see nothing about Fair and Partial Policing. So I wonder, do you have a Fair and Partial Policing policy? Do they have one, should I say? You know, we do. You know, I don't have, there is no policy in the documents that I've reviewed, Bruce. Thanks for your question. I have not, that is not a part of, I'm sorry. Yes. It's in the directives. It's kind of HR policy. I'm talking about the stuff that I went over. So, did you want to answer that question for Bruce? It's not a personnel policy. It's part of the police department policies. We do have a Fair and Partial Policing policy. And it was on their website, when I was a police commissioner, I don't know where to direct you to, but I just, I thought maybe you were asking questions of, is it in any of the things that I presented. So. I was just, I thought you was going to get to it, you know what I mean? I thought you was going to say something about FIP. And other things. So since they do have a FIP policy, Fair and Partial Policing policy, then I guess they follow. How did they get trained and where, and how long was it? On the policy? The Fair and Partial Policing policy. How long was the training? I don't know. Bruce, I wonder if your questions are more appropriate for the police chief. I think Karen's talking about employee discipline. Speaking about directives and policies, procedures, and how HR operates. And so I thought that question might be put. I think that's the feedback Bruce mentioned. I get it. I understand. I understand, Jordan. I think I should know the answer to that question. No, it's okay. It's nothing hard here against you or anything. It's just that I work with chiefs around the state. I wasn't going to ask this certain police department about their Fair and Partial Policing policy. I just was going in, we was learning about community. You know, what you're doing in the community. How do you act with the community? What do you do for the community? How do you work with the community? And so I thought, I'm going to ask them. So I asked them, do you have a Fair and Partial Policing policy? They say, yeah. I said, wow, that's awesome. How long was your training?  They said, we took our training online. It was probably about a half an hour. And so I just threw me like for a loop, you know what I mean? And so I think that that's why I asked how long it was and where was it? Because I think any type of Fair and Partial Policing training should be between a facilitator and not just online because I don't think probably maybe a person who don't look like me might have created the training. And so they don't look like me. Then I don't think that, or something like me, I think that they should get somebody who looks like me or somebody who have experience like I do. But it was no good to get you. I looked at that website. I didn't see it at all. I didn't see FIP. Like you go from our state police, give it to them. They got FIP, soft broke it. They got FIP. They got policy. Right there you see it. And Burlington Police, being our largest police force in the state, I don't see it.  And then one year we did it and it was bad, pitiful. And then the next time we did it, it was still pitiful. I mean, how can you stop people who look like me, 85%. And 85% of people who look at me, you stop. And it's only like 0.1% of people who look like me in the state. So to me, there is, there's no, there's no really, there's no directives. There's no, it's just, do what you think. So that's what I like to say. I think that's really good feedback. And I think if you're gonna talk about policy, you should be talking about all the policies. So that is well, well said. And I do think I should know the answers of how long the training takes because these are city employees. So thank you for that. The next time I see you, I'll have those answers. No, it's okay. You know, if you can sit in my ear, I'm easy to find. It's just Google my name.  I know, I know. But you are correct. And I really do appreciate that feedback. I know Mila's got her hand up now, but she could probably speak to it. But go ahead, please. Yeah, sorry. Yes. Go ahead. Yeah, please. So my question was a specific presentation. Would it be available to the public as well as PDF format? We can just go online and download it or? We should post the presentation to board docs. Okay. So that page I just navigated to, it should be posted there. And I know you're speaking specifically to personnel situation, not necessarily like if the public have say, submit a complaint. It's like there's a tier to go through like grievance one, grievance two, the public that can go through, like say if somebody submitted a complaint about a police officer or anybody within the city personnel as well. So I don't know if this pertains to you as the HR director, but in terms of like. Sorry, but we're really here. It's okay. We'll repeat. Thank you. We'll repeat the question once. Romeo, why don't you go ahead and then we can repeat the question. Okay. I wanted to find out if there was like a, there's tier process to go through where the public, they say like submit a complaint to the city, either the police department through the police commission or directly to the chief or directly to you. And then there's a like a tier to go through where they find out where that situation is. Or this only just applies to the personnel based on. No, I think that's a good. Sorry, thank you. Folks online, could you repeat the question as you? So the question is, is there a tiered system to report complaints? So I have that right Romeo.  I don't have, I can't, a lot of times I just listen, but the police department has a very specific process and that is the portal. And that is very helpful. That was developed so that people could anonymously if they wanted to and they didn't have to call the police department and I've used the portal. And so that's the tool that a police complaint from the public about the police comes through. Does that answer your question, Romeo? Yes, yes. If another city employee, like say for example, somebody goes into city hall and is not treated appropriately by a staff member. You know, there's, there isn't a public complaint portal, but we do, I would address those complaints as if it was a complaint from another employee.  If there is something like that, we take those very seriously. But mostly the police portal is what, that is the tool that is used to give feedback on those individuals. I just have one last question. Sure. Regarding diversity, equity and inclusion, how does that translate to the entire, I guess you are the director of the entire city, I guess, right? I was wondering in terms of DEI training, how does that training work in relation to the presentation that you just did? Yeah, so the question is for people online, how does DEI training work? And so the racial equity and inclusion and belonging department facilitated from 2020, I think 2021 they implemented a process. There is a new director. There was a search. So director Kim Carson will be taking over and facilitating that training in conjunction with human resources. So we will do that together, but we're really excited about that. She just completed her reorganization and so we will move forward with that. In terms of onboarding though, we do have an extensive onboarding where we do cover a lot of ground when it comes to diversity, equity and inclusion. Vanessa Santos-Unennio is our talent and recruitment manager and she was the director of inclusive excellence at UVM and she does the onboarding with an extensive piece on that so that when people come in the door, they understand what we're asking for in terms of diversity, equity and inclusion. Great. Thank you, Romeo. We have Andy and then Milo and then I think a couple other comments here in the room. I'll just say I'm mindful that we have another agenda item and want to talk about some of the CNA items and the library closes at eight o'clock so we need to give ourselves some buffer here on our agenda, but want to make sure we get around to everyone. Andy, you had your hand raised next and then we'll go to council grant. Great. Thanks. So I just too, I want to make a couple of comments and I have Joe's questions. First, I just want to be very clear that the Ask Me Local 1674 meeting and also fellow rank and file member here in all of the city who work for our center so for all that asking and what the workers that are 1343, but that's not us. And I just kind of want to make as clear as possible that what would be an escalated grievance for a city worker, most likely in some situations they're not going to look the same as a PPOA, escalation to a step to grievance. And I'm sure that there are examples where there are similarities. I'm also sure that there are differences. And I'd also like to point out that when we're looking at discipline for PPOA employees or since the Ask Me City employees, those situations that we're talking about looking at food sober study, it's very different than what city workers may be complaining about not in public, right? Like city workers who work in front of desks over there are not going to tackle somebody. Like that is not part of what their job is and it's also not something that they have the ability to do on the job. And what we're here for is to look at those high, I can't remember if I put it on the slide, but those cases where things go up, they're escalated. And I just kind of want to bring that focus there that like when we're talking about unions and we're talking about workers, that workers for the city and all those other unions are very different than the PPOA. And we really appreciate it if people complain like them as the exact same type of worker union as they are different. And I just want to make that clear. The questions that I had were, at one point we talked about how for high level of fractions for, I think it was PPOA there being a lot of unions, he said that a lot of people will be involved. Were you just referring to when it goes to the police commission or to the HR commission or were you talking about that there are other votes involved in it? So who are those votes? Yeah, go ahead, sorry. So the HR committee is comprised of three. First of all, to your point, I'm asked to come here and report on what happens in the city for everyone. So I wasn't asked to come and have a specific police focus. I know 1674 is different than 1343, but AFSCME93 is, I apologize for not making that distinction. Secondly, when we talk about looking at high level infractions, city government has the HR committee so that our counselors are aware. So there can be in executive session the three counselors, myself, any leadership of AFSCME can be there including the treasurer. So that can equate to a lot of people and then there's the person who is grieving. So those meetings can get pretty large. If the PPOA has a step two, there's the entire commission, myself, city attorney, and then whoever is making the grievance or complaint. So there are a lot of people when something, and I think the point I'm trying to make about that is that this is not happening in a vacuum. I feel really good as a black woman who lives in Burlington to know that there's a lot of people listening to these conversations because these conversations do happen in executive session and it's important to me to make sure that the counselors that were elected that I voted for are in on these decisions. A case, obviously, with people's information protected but an example of something that goes to step two if you are a city employee under AFSCME or IBW or as compared to a step two might look like if you're in PPOA. Sure, I can give a really good example and I can tell you the grievance that went to a step two in the police department was over, the employee did not believe that they should be disciplined for not completing paperwork and that was a grievance and that was what the grievance was about. Similarly, an AFSCME or IBW may grieve the same thing. I think my point is, and that's a good distinction to make here is that when a grievance happens it's really about the contract. So if you didn't, a lot of times it's about accrued time, scheduling. I have not witnessed a high level infraction where there was excessive use of force and what have you. I've been with the city for two years and I'm not trying to say at all and I want everybody to hear me loud and clear that there's no reason and everybody's the same. People have different jobs but I think it is okay for me to say that high level infractions that I've witnessed and seen in the time that I've been the director have been across the board. It could be in any sector. I have not been, when I was on the police commission, yes and those are executive session issues but not as the director of HR. Have I seen, it's really, I think I joined at a time where police oversight was on the table and the police force was small and we're rebuilding, right? And I think there are members of the police department and there are members of the city who would really like to see that be successful and so I'm very fortunate to not have seen anything rise to the level where I would have to be deeply concerned or ethically conflicted. I hope that answers your question, Andy. No worries, no worries, I really appreciate it. I appreciate it, I appreciate it, ask me. No matter what the number. Milo, can we turn to you now? Question first thing, so I agree with Andy's comments. I just want to bring some of them up myself. They're really strong points. One of the things that's really difficult is that our officers want to be treated like other employees until they don't. And that has been an ongoing issue and that's something that we have to really have and honestly, that has to be part of the honesty of these conversations. They aren't like other importance because of the powers that they have. I will also say that the grievance process as it currently works is not really the issue to be tinkered with because it's actually the process that works. The process that has not worked and has continued to be very adversarial is when it comes to issues of protecting the residents of Portland, that's when we get to the leadership. Other issue, regarding the department's website, it's terrible, the city's website is terrible. Just accessing information in general can be very, very difficult. And ever since I started being part of this, I've brought up a number of issues about the city's website and the police departments in particular, how you can't access certain information or information that is there is extremely outdated. I've also brought up some of that information with the mayor as well. I'm thinking that benefit from an overall, just starting to do it a little bit at a time. And this issues were brought up when they still had the staff. So that is definitely a fair point about trying to prime some information on some policies and trying to get information on training is very, very difficult as well. It was also difficult during the CNA of their process of getting information. And the issue of the track about fair and partial policing, that has some good points. The recommendation, there was a recommendation that was made to embrace the process and let the process work. That didn't quite happen. They did an online training. I first came trying to get some more specific information about that training. Arya, the director, Kim Carson, she basically spoke about that training. She thought it was a good training. So I would like the department to be willing to open itself up to a process that involves review of the data. They continue to block that. But there was a good review on the recent training from the R&D director. And those are just the comments that were made on what was recently said. Thank you. Thank you, Milo. Before bringing it back to the room here, is Arya, did you have a comment? Yeah, it was just to say that to be clear, I think everybody was on the call this time, but still to say, I was the one who asked for us to look at some of the other, what happens in the rest of the city for discipline and partially, that's also because sometimes I think the police department has actually held to a lower standard than some of the other employees, like a prime example being the chiefs and one chief having a pay account and getting suspension for another chief being really template and getting fired for it, not a chief, but a department head. So I just, I actually think, I think one of the comparisons has added minimum, we should be willing to the department, which has so much more power in authority to the same standard as some of the other employees, and then I'm not sure right now that I see consistency across our city staff. Yeah, I think that is, I think having the police commission is a start. I think having the police commission involved on the first level complaints that come through the portal and having them have access to it is a start. I think that's really, that's been a good process from my opinion, but also, again, reporting just internally, the police commission. I think that what the ask is, is to understand what the processes are, just to be clear, I think there is some equity but there's also citizens are on, police commission is made up of citizens, so citizens do get to see the complaints first and they get to give their feedback in that process. So I'm feeling, I feel better internally knowing that I've seen the process from beginning to end. Can we do more? That's why we're here, so. Great, and then thank you, Karen. And the second comment is the, sorry, is a little bit of just like, so like changing the processes. So just wanting us to think about that, I think, and I know this is true, but I think that if we put investigatory authority into the police commission, which is something we're talking about, that I think they can't also be the level, like the step two, because that to some extent is an appeal process. So that means we have to have a new appeal process and Karen will let you confirm that. But then I'll just finish my last point.  I think we're talking both about oversight, and then I think there's some other things that we're starting to talk about, which is transparency, which are related, but not necessarily the same.  And then there's also a lot of data, and I feel like we've heard a lot of things around like, even just with the data that the police commission, the police department is collecting, a lot of like narrative around it, that it's like the men in this problem. And so just having some transparency around like, I mean, I don't even know that, but I think that there's two conversations that are happening right now. And I think they're related, but I also just want to flag that. So many things we're talking about oversight, and I think to be addressed with transparency issues, which may or may not be in the same body of the police commission, depending on what makes no sense for us. Thank you. Forgive me for piping in, because I want to just quickly say that that is such an important point because I said over and over again, this is not always about discipline. This is about knowing that something happened and to prevent it from happening again, there may be the need to do additional training. And that is where most of this adversarial relationship in the habits is because there's this fundamental disagreement about what is adequate training. That's a big part of it. So we're looking at these big things that I'm not sure are the main problems, right? That's my concern. Thank you. Thank you, Milo Zariab. Just bringing it back to the room, are there any quick comments or questions from anyone who hasn't spoken yet? Okay, thank you. Sarah. Just to be quick, and at some point I need to understand the process of the police portal and how those complaints get traveled through the process because our big part of our charge is to look at the process and make it work better than it has been. I think it's important for us to focus on that and a lot of the issues which are so critical like training and communication aren't gonna get fixed by fixing the discipline process. I think the Public Safety Committee has a lot of work to do on all of the work from the CNA report and ongoing. So I just wanna make sure that we kind of understand that, that whatever process we agree on and whatever process might need the tweak of an ordinance and a charter change doesn't in whole cloth fix the culture problems that we may need to work on. So I just wanna make sure we kind of focus on that. So if I, so the flow chart should be an accurate description of the process and that is included in all the documents that we've got tonight. So you should take a look at that. We've had criticism tonight that it funnels power and that what we need is actually a broader review and power. So there's already been comments that we've taken with relationship to the flow chart. And there are references to other documents in here that can be linked to that. So let me just, you know, for your edification. It's available and it's available for everybody, right? Cause y'all can get this, this is, that's the idea. I just had a couple quick questions, Karen, and thanks for a great presentation. So for a termination, the Loudermill hearing, does that happen before any grievance process would begin? And then do you grieve the outcome of the Loudermill hearing or does the Loudermill hearing happen in the context of the grievance process? That's just a high level view. Loudermill is the end of the grievance process. So I grieve or, I mean, it doesn't even, you know, a Loudermill can be, happen, a Loudermill just happens to an employee that is facing termination can have a chance to speak. So it's really not the part of the, it can happen in any part of the process. And then there's an appeal process that after termination, an employee has 15 days to decide if they want to appeal. And that, you know, again, I'm just, I was asked to report on internal processes, so that would not apply to something like excessive use of force or anything like that with the police department. That would be law, the violation of. Right, okay. And is all discipline within the police department grievable? So if, you know, it's something like a written warning, for example, that's placed into a police officer's personnel file, is that grievable or does it have to be higher level for it to go through the grievance process? No, it's grievable, but it has to be a violation of contract for it to sustain the grievance. Okay. Could you just deny the grievance if it's not a violation of contract? Okay. And my last question brings us back to this question of transparency. So I think we all have some sense as to what happens from with external citizen complaints, the process that goes forward and Jean just cited to it. And we've talked some now about if an internal complaint is raised, something that perhaps triggers an investigation within the police department, where they review it, can you, and I think you touched on this a little bit, but can you confirm to what extent is your office brought in on something like that? If there is an internal complaint and the department decides that they're going to investigate it internally, to what extent is your office brought in on it? And then I think the follow-up question of that is, of course, we're talking about grievances here. First, the only way we hear about a grievance is if the union decides to appeal something, if discipline is issued that is not grieved, can you speak to the extent to which your office is informed of discipline generally? So two questions there. When, if at all brought in on the investigation, when, if at all are you informed about discipline that's not grieved? I am brought in on any internal investigation. I do hear, you know, I hear it, I review the documents, I sit at the table, through that process. And in terms of, if it was, if a grievance happened, you know, when the grievous process starts, I'm informed right away. Okay, but if it's not grieved, if discipline is issued by the police department that does not go through the grievance process, is your office informed of that? Or is it just put in the police officer's personnel file and it sort of stays internal to the department? Yeah, if it's a violation of directives, if it's, you know, uniform or something, you know, very low level, I wouldn't be informed. If it's high level, mid to high level, I'm informed. Okay. Very, I'm informed. Chief consults you through the process of making that decision. It's not just you're informed of it, you're involved in the process as the chief makes a decision. Yes. I can confirm that is true. Okay. Okay, I just ask, is that by the executive order, by practice, by what, how does that happen? It's just, I mean, it's my role and it's outlined in, you know, policy procedure. I mean, I, sorry. Is there a practice in the mayor's expectation that the chief work with the HR director when any deposition. Myself, though, that I do, you know, I really would, you know, thank you, Jordan, but maybe I'm not using the correct language here, but I am involved and informed on everything. I mean, I did not come here to not be involved and informed on every, the mayor does expect me to be involved, he expects the chief to work with me. I think that was one of the reasons that I was appointed off the commission. So I am involved. So it would be really helpful to get all the documents related to the disciplinary process so that we can see what may need to be, what desire to be codified in ordinance or charter, because the union contract, I got it right up here to the current one, is very specific about the discipline process and also the grievance process. And the charter is supplementary to the contract and everything else is sort of over arches, but you read that in concert and it doesn't have any of this process, except it says that there's a hearing. So any relationship in terms of the police discipline process with HR is got to be done through something else than these two documents, because there might have been one thing that I saw in reading this that relates to HR, but it would be very helpful for this committee, this joint committee, to get those documents so that we can get that out to the public if you've done it already. I don't think that there's a specific document. I think it's just the practice of this administration that. It would be great to get, I appreciate that, but if there is no document, right, then we should be told there is no document because that might be fine for this administration, but y'all are humans and therefore you will all be dead sometime and somebody else will take over and therefore the corporate body, that's the beauty of institutions, they go on until somebody kills them. I understand that you're saying that perhaps the HR's role in the disciplinary process should be codified and there's not a specific directive or policy that articulates the way in which the police department is to engage HR, but the practice of this administration has been that department heads are expected to engage HR on employee disciplinary matters because of HR's expertise on those issues. Except the first year I was a counselor, we didn't have an HR director, so there was a big gap and so I just, I think the concept of. You had an interim HR director. Well, you had an interim, yes we did, but the conversation about codifying it, I think is just where, that's why I asked the question and I think is worth exploring. And what I would like is documentary proof of the status quo and it's either in, and there may be a document, there may not be, if there isn't a document, y'all just send us saying, there is no document, but this is our practice and lay it all out and then actually then you got a document. I think just last week, Director Derpy, Chief Murad and the mayor met on a potential police disciplinary issue, we had a, so it is part of our routine practice to include people. It is, but I do hear, as a commissioner, when I was a police commissioner, the codification, we really do, people leave, I'm appointed, I get it, I understand and I think there was a specific reason, right? Moreau was very confident and in the fact that I was not going to, I was gonna be involved and he's always had that as a practice so I do agree that it should be written down, right? I make this formal request for this document, please. I think you're gonna write that, Councilor Berkman. I'm not gonna, I'm making the request, I'm not gonna write the response to my request because it's not my request. Yeah, I think there's, yeah, go ahead. There is one document, Councilor Berkman, which is the mayor's executive order about reviewing use of force incidents and the HR directors formally included in that specific process. Send it our way, please. Okay. Great. Thank you for the great presentation, Karen. Appreciate it, no doubt we'll continue to be in touch. Again, I'm mindful of the time and the library's closure and are needing to give ourselves some buffer to wrap up things here. I think we lost Councilor Paul as well, who was online to potentially talk about CNA so Councilor Hightower, I think to the extent we have some time to discuss it. I think it perhaps falls on you and sort of defer to you as to the best way to do this, but with the limited time we have, I'm wondering if there's a way to perhaps frame your know-how on CNA and to lead the consultants in the context that you've been looking for here, which is sort of how it should direct the discussion of our committee. But I completely defer to you in the best way to approach it. Karen said she was willing to help with that I was opening to Lisa and was mostly ready to talk about the Tlitha report, but I feel like the CNA report in many ways is the more important than not, but I said I'll try to come up with a book on how to say it without the CNA report to talk about it. We're going to have to prepare a summary in just like two seconds, but I can talk through both and how much time do you want me to take? I don't really like your stuff. Well, it's 7.34 right now, and I mean, this may need more time. I don't know. I mean, is 10 minutes enough times or for now? Okay. I am, I'm going to say one of the three breakouts, like I said, I think that's fine. Great, so I'll start with the CNA report just because, and I will say, maybe it was probably at this point, maybe not, the report better than I do. So feel free to jump in with anything that you want. So I'll basically just go over the key findings of the report, and I really encourage folks to look at the report itself because it is, I think it's very good. There are a lot of conditions, but I think it gives a good sense of where we are and so I think the first finding essentially is that disparities exist. We'll just end there. The second finding is it says there does not seem to be bias in terms of it's geographic and socioeconomic, have the department in response to geographic and socioeconomic things. The third thing is that you could use community when an outreach is under-resourced and generally lacking, which leads to a lack of trust. We are not calling this practices when it comes to training, so there's some topics that are not covered, not required or insufficiently, especially a lot of things around internal affairs are tracking investigatory processes and then for resolution pursuits and complaints, which we will address as we talk to you about here, is, again, not in line with best practice nor as a follow-up or as a discipline. Then of course, BPD has to find a more realm and there's general frustration around the lack of consensus around what BPD should be doing and a lot of mixed desires. Then we had the number of sworn officers which was addressed by the city council resolution in terms of what they think was the ideal number, so those were the last two recommendations or the last two findings. The recommendations were that some of them should be, some calls for service should be transitioned to CSOs and CSLs, which is the thing we've done. Then again, a staffing plan for our shifts with some decent thing officers that we've authorized. Capturing better data, especially around traffic stops, so that capturing better data. The number four is BPD commissions that are possibly that is very spouted or by bias. Number five is investigating use of force incidences more thoroughly and again, consider it that the possibility that the disparities are driven by bias. Priority, number six is prior to that is the review of department policies, so that's a lot of the work that in the following CNA report, that care has been to folks, kind of like what we should be doing around policies and then having it come in seven is establishing even community mental health advisory committee. So that's the CNA report. I really just read the executive summary, which I hadn't heard everybody read through anyway, but I think I won't summarize any further, but that was the CNA report, which I encourage folks to look at and I'm also happy to answer any questions around it. And then the Talika report was a lot of community engagement and they focused on three questions, which I'm not necessarily sure are the right questions, but it's what does the CNA report mean to you? What are the three most important actions and the effort to make it safer for your community? And is around BPD, is the current public input process and the form of common suggestion which concerns easy to access and understand? And I guess to focus on some key highlights, the, of all the things that folks asked us to have additional investments, and so this is a much broader look, right? So we went beyond BPD, so it's much more on public safety, so maybe less into the conversation we're talking about now, but of all the things that folks asked us to invest in across the board, it didn't matter what you were, it was mental health emergencies, which is indicative of what this was, you know, done after the start of COVID, I think, especially. And then residents, really, when they thought about what made us take the healthy community, they talked about sidewalks, speeding, vandalism, and housing affordability. Business owners talked about public urination, amplification, vandalism, and housing affordability. So that's just something to know. I guess one of the interesting things of talking about satisfaction, 9-11 response, 80% of people were satisfied or extremely satisfied out of 439, the biggest predictor of how satisfied folks are with the 9-11 response is home ownership and income. So that's something for us to note. And then there was something else that I meant to pull in terms of like how much folks trust the different services and folks, especially, trust EMS, the most trusted service at 59%, then the fire department, which ties with friend and family at 46%, and then police officers at 42%. So that's just a very high level of context from that to leave it at that. Thanks, Zariah. Thanks for the 10 minutes, I tell you. Yeah, that was good. I'm gonna fill in my time. Oh, I had a question. Can you just tap the screen? Is there something that needs to be read? I mean, there is no way it would literally take hours just to be, you can take out. So what am I talking about? It took meetings once a week that were at minimum two hours for like a month, month and a half to review and prioritize a site who's going to be working on it, policy reviews with the police commission, other types of things, how they're being worked on in the department, it's really, it's expansive. And I just gave everyone who's involved in this process a task to read it. The summary doesn't do it just, it's important to see what they were talking about. And once again, that term, uncomfortable truths. We hit these uncomfortable truths that set up this wall between making progress. So one of the things that I found the most frustrating about it was like, hey, I don't know what this stuff, I know what the experiences were people in the community. We know that people don't feel like they're released and that shows the different responses of issues of home ownership and income. This is people's experiences that they talked about and continue to talk about. So obviously they are, I just can't stress enough, it's really important for someone who's not dating to the CNA report to do the digging, to look at it, to see what was suggested, to read the contract, to see what contract ended up with because there were a number of items related to the contract and it, you know, we toured community oversight and we just didn't get some of those items. So now we're locked into another contract in 2025. Yeah, we did do the best we could and that's what it kind of did in our process too because we're gonna have this contract that doesn't have best practice on some items and that's sort of what we can do with it, thank you. And just to, I know that I was like, I was in a crazy about telling you that's a consultancy, but there is, I still encourage you to read the report. I don't feel like this is more the facilitator than commonness to me being like it's not clear like how much of their data is like statistically significant and like they don't, they didn't really, I think it's not as good for reporting it in a report, but they also have all of the raw data from all of the things that they got in there. So it's a good, if you have the time, it's also just like I don't think they did a great job of summarizing it but there's a lot of information in there. So. The raw data is very interesting because this is the responses from the public. It's the responses from people who came to the community engagement and I think, I definitely had issues with the final report as well. I think they got overwhelmed. First of all, our community already moved away with much higher than average response from. Responsories for these things are generally low. And I thought our response was low, apparently it's much higher than they were accustomed to see and the diversity of the comments from people made it very hard to just do these general categories and that may have been a little overwhelming. I don't know, I'm just speculating on that part, but the raw data is as interesting because I was at those engagements and I also, I've spent a lot of time with the raw data. Thank you. I don't mean to cut the conversation short but I'm mindful of the library and the need to get out here. And also we have channel 17 here and I know they need some time to pack up before the library closes but are there any other counselors that have comments on this agenda item? I was just, and it's been a while since I have read it but wanting to know if there were sort of in the engagement of this process, things directed specifically as recommendations or best practice around the discipline process current or future. And I guess I'm directing that to both of you who work or are more familiar. Yeah, well it's not just, this one's again, it's not just discipline, it's the oversight too. We've had to train it a lot tonight on discipline but the need of it, and I understand everyone has to understand the discipline process, but it oversights the need of the issue and then a lot of the recommendations refer to that. And I just think it's important reading for anyone who's interested in our department. I think it is. I think that sometimes people don't understand, I get a question a lot about opinions and not even opinions. It's like, oh, that's not my opinion. It is, but it is. It's not an opinion. And reading that report helps people understand what's happening. Can we get both those reports posted as part of the next agenda and then everybody has got the opportunity and for those of us who have seen them and have lost them, we can get them again. For those of us who have never seen them, we can get them. For those of us who are so familiar with them, we just pull them right up. That would be helpful, that. Yes. Do you have ready access to those, Kim? Yeah, okay, great. Yeah. I don't know if it's time to be done. Yeah, I think it will be. I'll just, on that point, I always mentioned in the last meeting about the idea of having a website specifically dedicated to the workflow of this committee that the public can easily access. And then when the meetings are on time, they can see the recordings and access these documents. I also imagine in a wonderful process of the prior hour we were mentioning that there's a specific thing for we watch on a meeting over time with feedback from the community that's actually really useful to all of my moments. I just also wanted to know if that happened or if it's already happening. We're working on that, so. There we go. Or at least we're working on, well, we started also with the new civic, so we're working with Scott about how to do all this. Great, do you have a rough sense of when you might get a product? Don't, I will talk to you over tomorrow. I'll let you know. Please don't. I think that most importantly is getting clarity about when it could be up in relationship to this whole process. So some information is much better than none. So it's almost 10 o'clock. I know other folks may have questions or comments, but I do think we probably need to wrap if you're in agreement. I am, I think that you and I can meet and figure out how to make the next meeting very productive. Okay. Are there any other comments from counselors, sort of other business, or thinking about the next meeting? We could also email Jean and I about it as well. Just, you do the less. Yeah, I'll send an email about around. I just received Joan's responses. So I think we have some dates that we may be able to settle on for next meetings. Yeah. Great, thanks. Well, also, Councillor Grant mentioned the new meeting that could follow. I don't know if there's any specific documents from that. I don't know if it's argumentation or a document that we all look at. Yeah, yeah. Councillor Grant, I was gonna reach out to you actually severally to see if you had any specific documents about the New Haven model that you could send along to the committee. We could post those materials as well. I'll put something together. I had this little bit ago. I had sent commissioners to we know some information after that event at Flynn. And one of the speakers, I can't remember who the last name personally is Tracy, but she serves on the New Haven Police Commission and she also served on the committee to reduce pillars of Obama's 21st century policing. So she was extremely interesting. And I think I mentioned before, after the event, so many people walked up and said, oh, why can't we do that?  So it's really important. And I found how they codify what they do. Now New Haven is a nice example because they're a New England city. They are bigger than we are. They're a little smaller by city because they have a separate commission and a separate oversight fund. But I will organize the links a little bit better. I also found their minutes to be really interesting reading. For example, when they review a complaint, they need the report to the complaintants. So even in that, their report discusses the department's report of the complaintants sees what the oversight body discussed. They also discuss these things in open meetings. They do not mention the name of the complaintants. They do not mention the name of the officers, but they review the incidents. So there's a lot of things that were, there's a lot of things that the collector made. Oh, nobody does that. Well, this is actually not true with this particular. And they have the type of commission also firing. They work with the hiring on the time. So I will get something together. And so that was into the whole council. And for any of the public entities, if you're interested in getting the information, you can send me an email in the grantnetfermentant.gov. And I'd be happy to send you comments with that information as well. Right, you can also Google New Haven Police Review Board, which I just did, and it pops up. And so we should take a look at it. Yeah, I don't want that. I'm sorry, Milo. I'm sorry to cut it short, Milo. But we really have to get out of the library. So I'm sorry to cut it short. Great. Thank you so much, Milo. Is there any other business from folks in the committee? I moved to adjourn. All right, second. All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Meeting is adjourned. That clock is fast on the screen, actually. So we have a few more minutes left. At 7.53, so thank you.