I think, I don't know, I think it will be better to, you go first, huh? Yeah, yeah. Hello, can you hear me? I think, okay. Hi everyone, my name is Dominika Lesota, I'm a 20 year old climate justice activist from Poland. And as a member of the global youth movement Fridays for Future, together with my friends from across Europe, I used to fight for a safe and just future. But on 24th of February we stopped fighting for a future. Because when your friend from Kharkiv goes to you to say that he is running down to a bomb shelter, because as I quote, it all started Dominika. And he promises to call you soon, whatever that means, you know that this fight is no longer for any hopeful tomorrow. It is about survival, and it is about now. From that paralyzing Thursday morning in the cold February, the Russian aggression became the new daily reality for us. And what came to light is that the addiction of our societies to the fossil fuels, most importantly, Putin's fossil fuels, was making the unspeakable possible. Each day, with nearly a billion euros spent on gas, oil and coal by the European Union to Putin. Every single day. And so in the times of a fossil fuel driven climate crisis, here we are facing a fossil fuel war in the continent that for decades has been repeating its promise that no such brutality would ever happen again. But to say that all of this was unpredictable wouldn't be true. Because as Marian Turski, a very, very renowned Polish survivor of Auschwitz, once said, wars do not fall from the sky. And the current war did not fall from the sky either, but it is a result of a political and economic system that is designed by those in power for crises and for wars to happen. We have been betrayed, and I as a young person, especially if you'll be betrayed having to repeat for all of those years at school in Poland that we will never make this happen again, I feel betrayed by the politicians who for decades have been choosing profits and friendship with dictators over people, over our lives, over my life, over the lives of my Ukrainian friends. And so what we are left with now is a world in which my friend in Ukraine needs to hide in a basement to survive, a world in which a friend from India texts me that thousands of the people in her town suffer from un-livable heat waves, a world in which my friends in Uganda have to worry if they wouldn't be forced out from their houses so that another oil pipeline can be built or a gas infrastructure as happens in Senegal right now, a world in which ordinary citizens are left with a choice of either financing fossil fuels and Putin's war or running into energy poverty, and at the same time, a world in which oligarchs, politicians, and fossil fuel CEOs can reap record profits because of the crises, the wars, and human tragedies. To them, all of these are financial opportunities. I do not want to live in a world like this. I think none of us deserves to live in a world like this, especially because there is an alternative. In Fridays for Future and in many indigenous communities and many resistant movements, there is a very famous slogan that another world is possible because it is. Our economies do not have to run on energy that is stained with the blood of people or distractions of ecosystems worldwide. Our political systems can be something more than a TV show featuring old white men addicted to money and power. They really can be something more than that. Our societies are more than ready for a transformation towards a fossil-free reality that puts people first and leaves no one, and I mean no one, behind. This other reality is within reach. But until it becomes real, we fight. I, as a climate activist since 24th of February, together with my friends from Ukraine and across the world, we have been fighting daily to demand those in power to stop betraying us, to stop their political theater, because what they do is a theater. It's not the duty that they were hired by citizens to serve. So we've been all over the place. We've been across Europe and Poland, Germany, Belgium, France, Italy. Everywhere we could go we went and we've been fighting and the fight and the resistance is growing. Because if you hear any opinions that because of the war we have to sacrifice climate policy, you have to realize that you're talking to a very cynical person or someone that is completely not aware of how these things are connected because they are, and especially us people who care, who have the sensitivity and who have the energy and power to change things, we have to do our best to do so. And so I urge you to fight, because every degree of the warming matters. Every degree, every fraction of a degree that we're able to limit matters. Every million of euros that we're able to divert from Putin matters. Every infrastructure, every oil cargo, every gas pipeline, every coal exploitation we are able to stop matters. During this war I think I realized finally that it's not that the end of the world is coming up. It's that ends of multiple worlds are happening right now and we might not even be aware of it. Because my friend who had to run down to the basement and then run away from Kharkiv and move away from his home, he lost his world. Because the friends in Uganda that I very, you know, gratefully have whose villages, whose communities have to be completely destroyed because total energies from France comes there to build their eco pipeline, the world's longest pipeline. They are already losing a world. Many of the worlds have been lost and we might not even be aware of it. And so I think the times that we're living in, you know, we are not able to save everything. But there are many worlds that we are able to save. But there are many worlds that we are able to treasure. And I think given the fact that some people in this world are so obsessed of sending the human to Mars, maybe instead of, you know, building alternative realities somewhere outside in the universe, we have to see the universe that we have in front of our eyes and make sure it's safe. On a final note, I know we're in Poland, we're in a country that has been, you know, for decades faced enormous challenges when it comes to transition away from fossil fuels. I think I, as a young person, to meet the transition isn't an option. And I think this war and the climate crisis that we're living in really made me aware that the fossil fuel phase out is not a nice to have. It's our only option to have any kind of livable future or a livable present. And so we need to fight for the just transition as if our lives depend on it because they do. And so I urge you to fight. I'm glad I'm not alone because sometimes during this period, which has been extremely dark for the past months, it felt as if the world is collapsing and I have nothing, no space to do anything. And I'm alone in that, but I'm not. And so I'm glad you're here, but we have a big job to do. But I'm happy we are in this together and I hope that from today we can leave this place and save some worlds that are left still. Thank you. Thank you. Summertime in Europe. People enjoying their vacation. Talking about fun activities, sometimes being afraid of the new COVID-19 variation. The war in Ukraine captures our attention. But what about the climate crisis in this hot summer? This matter still seems for too many people not urgent. The climate crisis is more critical than ever. Canyon families, for example, can no longer produce food after years of drought. People from Bangladesh are increasingly falling prey to cyclones and tidal waves. Residents from Belgium and Germany, whose homes were completely destroyed exactly a year ago, still don't have new housing. Why are still so many people neglecting these facts and our actions not taken? Climate change is about more than just nature. It's about justice and the future of humanity. More specifically, that one of my peers, young people who today often send the strongest signals and come together in the streets to demand action. If real action is not following, children and teenagers will be the biggest victims. Isn't this convincing enough to take action? There's a lot of talk about global warming, but pertinent change is yet to come. And meanwhile, time is ticking away. This leaves many young people together with me speechless. It seems that many adults do not take responsibility for the generation that will come after them and that only the short-term perspectives attract their attention. Are people really only thinking about money and about the short-term? Why is this? Surely the climate is well reported in the media. Global warming can no longer be denied. I suspect adults are interested in the future of us, their children and grandchildren. I assume a lot has to do with the lack of accurate information. Real change will only come if we are all properly informed. Top scientists are still too often ignored. Information changes our mindset. And that in turn changes our behavior. That's the power of information. That's how we have impact. Information too and unite behind the science. Riding our bikes, more isolating our homes, eating less meat and changing our consumption patterns have a real direct impact and also save money. To get accurate information, the importance of collective education is crucial. It should be there for everyone. After all, a school is a place where you can learn a lot, where you make friends for life and hopefully every young person should have equal opportunities. I really do wish for every child to have a good education and a living environment. Also girls in Kabul, students in Kiev or young people in Palestine. It is a very foundation to provide equal opportunities. Together we must cost the strong base of information. The business leaders of tomorrow are in school today. This is a prerequisite to work on the climate crisis. On our earth we are also all connected to each other. We all share the same planet and the climate crisis makes it clear that everything is connected. Climate, education, social justice, oil, war and our behavior cannot be separated.  By joining hands we can meet these challenges. All people are connected. So let's not polarize and instead focus on what unites us. Let's commit to accurate information and constantly put those sustainable glasses on. Working together to minimalize climate change can be an invitation to dream together about the desired future of young people. About quality of education, about equality about how we want to live and interact with our planet in the future. It is a positive invitation that we can embrace together. I came here two days ago from Brussels to Warsaw and I didn't want to take a plane because it had all fuels of war and the climate crisis. Still, the train hours and prices were far higher than those of the plane. So I came by bus, 23 hours long. In the durable Europe of tomorrow we really need to invest more in night trains and other public transports to avoid these irrationally long sustainable journeys. To connect and inspire over the world these investments are really necessary. Finally, it is important to include many young people in our search for solutions. So I thank the Green European Foundation for inviting young activists for this keynote speech. After all, the climate story is about our future so we have the right to be taken seriously and to have a seat at the table at every level.  Will you join us in this positive story connected to a brighter future? The youth will be grateful to you. Hello everyone. My name is Maria Kurina. I'm a human rights defender from Ukraine. I was raised and born in Lugansk. It's eastern parts of Ukraine and I haven't been at home for eight years as well as my family. I came from a political opposition, pro-Ukrainian opposition in eastern Ukraine and it meant not to fight peacefully, it meant to survive every day. I'm really, really grateful to be here in Warsaw especially because here I feel through solidarity, sincere solidarity and sincere understanding what is going on now in the European continent. In my peaceful life, I've been teaching Japanese language in my alma mater university, Lugansk National University, and been dreaming about international relations career. I wouldn't have thought in even my nightmare probably to stand in front of audience convincing that Ukrainians have right to live free, have right to choose their own future and have right to be democratic, transparent country with rule of law and human rights priorities. I'm really grateful for all the support which Europe has shown already. I'm grateful for the fight which Europe joined and I would like to express my gratitude but I also would like to talk more about what is going on every day, every second in my own country.  I would like to be a voice of all those who are silenced now in Ukraine, all those who have been fighting for Ukraine and with colonial Russia, not even these last eight years with the start of occupation of Crimea and war in my homeland, Donbas. This colonial war, this colonial resistance has been going for 300 years. Unfortunately, taking the best and the most prominent active representatives of my nation and currently all my friends are fighting. Some are fighting, women and men are fighting in front line from the very first day of the full-scale invasion. Some are fighting the way they can, finding their abilities to advocate. I can tell three little stories about three different generations of Ukrainians and different gender and different background. Those three are Roman Ratushny, Irina Danilovich and Maxim Butkevich. Roman Ratushny was a young underaged person when the revolution of dignity started. He was one of those beaten in the middle of Kiev in the heart of Europe as a student, a schoolboy during the revolution of dignity first days. Roman was fighting big infrastructural monsters who wanted to build high-rise residential buildings in the middle of Kiev in a very great natural area. He has been persecuted by the government and he was hiding, but he fought this war. Now this land is not occupied by some residential buildings. Roman decided to join Ukrainian armed forces at the beginning in February of the full-scale invasion. Roman had a birthday lately. He could have been 25 only last days. He laid his life in Kharkiv region. And we have to continue to fight for these kind of people because such a person like Roman could have been the leader of our democracy in Ukraine. He could be a role model for other European nations and he paid the highest price for all of us, for my nation and for European values. Irina Danilovich is a nurse in Crimea who have been fighting with COVID inequality in labor and also she was contributing to our media as a citizen journalist. You know that journalism was suppressed in Crimea for all these years, media were attacked and expelled, free media was expelled from Crimea. She was contributing, not disclosing her surname and name. We have been searching for Irina for 13 days. She was kept in communicator in Crimea. We have been searching in every detention center in Russia and in Crimea. And only when we made outcry publicly internationally we found out that she has been held in local FSB building in Crimea for eight days. She was exposed to ill treatment. She was taken to the bathroom once a day and threatened to be taken to Mariupol where high hostilities were taking place or to the local forest if she wouldn't say what those so-called law enforcement were asking her to say. She went through lie detector and she was forced to sign blank papers, blank white papers in potential exchange for freedom. Once she has done this, she was told that some 200 explosives in her bag were found. Now she is facing political prosecution, criminal motivated prosecution and she can face six years of imprisonment just because being vocal telling the truth what atrocious human rights gross violations are happening independently. And the last story is a story about very prominent and very special human right defender and a friend of mine and a colleague of all human rights community in Ukraine, Maxim Butkevich. All his life, he is older than me, all his life he was there to help those left behind. He was one of the most sincere anti-fascism activists in Ukraine. He was helping migrants and those persecuted. He was a BBC journalist and also contributing to different local medias in Ukraine. Maxim told in his Facebook that he put on hold all his human rights defense activities and he joined territorial defense and later the armed forces of Ukraine. 24th of June when I had to speak in UN about atrocities Russia is doing in Ukraine, I got the message with telegram video where Maxim was kept by Russian forces. Maxim and his soldiers, he was a commander and now Russian propaganda is telling worldwide that Maxim is commander of Nazi regiment, Nazi division in the Ukrainian armed forces. Can you believe in such perverted reality? The person who was finding peace, a pacifist, sincere true pacifist for all his life now is threatened. We don't know about his whereabouts, his family hasn't been contacted even once for all these two weeks and we can of course unfortunately think that he can be tortured. We saw some signs of bruises on his face, no matter he was saying he's okay on this video and we also can predict that they can create some a bad scenario for example to prosecute him for terror or whatever. The person who spent all his life protecting those left behind, the person who was promoting peace in Europe, he's known in Eastern Europe and in every corner. We ask for public international outcry for Maxim and his soldiers. Yes, he is prisoners of war and prisoners of war can be kept and we ask for them to be released and for international humanitarian law to be protecting them. What else can I say? My reality is war balance, work reality, work war reality. Every day I'm exposed to monitoring and advocating about forced mobilization of my compatriots in the compatriots and forced deportation and separation of families about silencing and threatening thousands of Ukrainian active local communities, teachers, journalists, human rights defenders, activists, cultural actors and even religious leaders in the occupied territories. My reality is listening to some evidences of children who were taken to Russia and their grandparents have no idea where they are. My reality is watching the hundreds of square kilometers of my land with grain and with wheat being burned now just because we are fighting for our democracy, just because we are fighting for international rule of law for our future. My reality is facing the threat of global hunger and my friends around the world from Africa, from South America contacting me and asking is it possible to export grain from Ukraine where the Black Sea will be unblocked and I have no answers now. My reality is seeing medical facilities or shopping malls or business centers targeted specifically during the day where there are a lot of people, civilians, innocent children there and my reality is to know that my family is under constant threat and my friends are also under constant threat. Europe has shown immense leadership during the global pandemic. We were all united and those who had to receive vaccination who were left behind, they received it. I believe that this authoritarian dictatorship regime is a new plague, is a new virus in European continent that is already spreading around to other continents and I believe that European Greens, which are the most progressive part of society in Europe can take leadership and start to fight together with us in this battle to fight this virus. If we can unite, we can fight it and we can stop this plague spreading around the world. My colleague who invited me to this event once asked me where do you find the energy to fight when every day you receive news from the front line, you receive news about the deaths of civilians, you receive news that your parents are listening to air raid alarms or have to hide, they don't have energy now to hide in basement, they hide in the bathroom because there are two wall rule now in Ukraine is the priority. I find my energy because I cannot betray those generations fighting before us and fighting now. I cannot betray this generation fighting for climate and we cannot deliver climate changes, we cannot deliver women rights empowerment, we cannot deliver human rights defense if there is not peace in this continent and unfortunately peace has to be armed better than dictatorship. In my nightmare only I can imagine that I will say it as a human rights defender where human life is a priority but unfortunately Maxim Budkevich, Roman Radushny also were not prepared to take arms in their hands being journalists or activists but they had to do it. I can finish with one song that also inspires me always with Nina Simone, American African singer and civil rights activist. I wish I could share all the love that's in my heart, remove all the bars that keep us apart. I wish you could know what it means to be me then you'd see and agree that every man should be free. Let's make Europe and world free from dictatorship. Thank you very much. Thank you Dominika, Simon and Maria for your speeches. Hopefully people will listen, hopefully inspiring. So thank you very much and in a minute we will change the set. We will have a debate. As Maria said peace basically needs better weapons and dictatorships. So this is I guess what will be discussed next here. It will be Polish and Ukrainian perspectives on the security, European idea for security and peace, green security and peace. So thank you very much again and I would like to welcome now Melanie Fogel, co-chair of European Greens here to the floor. Are you around? Okay, she's coming. She will moderate a discussion as I said on Polish and Ukrainian perspectives on the security, European vision for security, green peace on the continent. Oh, you're here, sorry. So Melanie Fogel, the floor is yours. And maybe you could welcome the... Are they here? Yes, they're all here. Okay. Yeah, sure. So hello everyone, hope you're doing fine. We are not going to start the session on peace and security. As you know obviously because of what is happening in Ukraine but also because we are having this event in Poland and Polish perspective is very important to what is happening in Ukraine but also to us Greens. So the title of the session is What do Polish and Ukrainian perspective mean for the debate on the green European vision for security? As you know, the war in Ukraine shaped a lot of what were Greens certainties and positions on certain things and we did a lot of work to, let's say, move on certain debates. So we have four speakers today. Sofia, I don't know if she is there. Yeah, please. Nice to see you. So you're the coordinator seat wherever you like. You're the coordinator of the program Democracy Support and Human Security of the HBS in Ukraine. So by definition you became a very qualified expert on what is happening on the ground. Then we have Agnieszka who is here. Hello. Nice to meet you. Agnieszka is a scientist. She graduated from the Institute of International Relations at the Faculty of Journalism and Political Science at the University of Warsaw. Then she did her PhD in the field of political science specialized in international relations. And then we have Lena who is the leader of the Polish Young Greens. Hello. So she's the co-chair of the Polish Young Greens. As I just said, and then we have Gwendolyn Delboscarfield who is a member of the European Parliament who is notably working a lot on the issue of rule of law, especially in Hungary. She's the European Parliament reporter on the Article 7 procedure on Hungary. But she also knows a lot of things about the European Greens because she was in the Committee of the European Green Party for seven years and about basically what is happening with the Greens. In the European Parliament. So, Sofia, if that's okay, we are going to start with you with basically the main question being what is happening in Ukraine? What is the state of play right now? And how do you see the Polish perspective and how what is happening in Ukraine is now shifting the debate in the EU, especially with the Polish angle? Thank you, Melanie. Good morning, everyone. And it's a great pleasure being here, but it's even the greatest pleasure seeing so many Ukrainian speakers and so many questions touching war in Ukraine and how it has an impact on the Greens, on the Green agenda and not only Ukraine but everything beyond Ukraine. What is happening in Ukraine?  I'm starting my morning, every morning preparing daily brief for shared the truth project that we started on the third day of the war and this lasts for nearly 140 days that I have these mornings. Reading the news and living with the news and what's happening around my country. One of the latest things, let's start with data. That was yesterday or day before the Deputy Minister of Internal Affairs said there were 17,000 strikes on civilian objects in Ukraine done by Russians. Daily we read about the human rights violations. Recently OSCE reported on 18 filtration camps in Ukraine. You learn about Ukrainian cities, not just because of their amazing architecture or the development ideas, but we learn about Ukrainian cities and the fact where the shelling has taken place. This week we've learned about Vinnytsia, which is central Ukraine, relatively safe city. We now call everything relatively safe. Nowhere safe and nothing is safe. Vinnytsia was relatively safe city. In the end we have 23 people killed and among them three kids. That was heartbreaking. When I found this news I was standing and crossing the road in Brussels. Being safe in Brussels there were news happening in Ukraine. In relatively safe Vinnytsia. We know about Mariupol, about Buche, Kyiv, Yerpin and dozens of other cities. Mykolaev and other case. Two universities, relatively short, the premises which meant about educating people, about educating the next generation. It's again civilian object. What do we have? We have destroyed the institutions. If I live there, I would like to attend this university. But most likely there is no longer a chance to do that. Last but not least, the article from the Guardian, from yesterday, 1400 new graves identified in Mariupol. Mariupol is a city, you know, and now everyone knows about it, where I was planning to have one of my projects this autumn. The idea was to bring some students to show this how the cities relive. In the end of the day now, the project is not going to take place because there was no word to bring them. And this is how we live, and this is what's happening in the end of the day. It's another Saturday morning. For me it's 143rd day of the war. What's coming next? These were the data and the latest news. But what's coming next? We got the candidate status and I very much appreciate this because this is quite a big push and recognition also of what Ukraine has done over the last couple of years of this transition and readiness to go. But, again, just coming back from Brussels, what we see clearly, it's not going to be a fast track, it's not going to be easy, everyone's telling us, that's quite a hard work that you have to do. That's reforms, these are the conditions that you have to work. This is anti-corruption, media law, national minorities law. And this is just the beginning of the long run. The long run, which we have to implement, having shellings all across the country. So on the one hand, we still have to push the reform agenda. And it's, we passed the law, one of the biggest achievements the civil society community has been celebrating was finally the ratification of Istanbul Convention. But this all goes, this reform agenda, which I would like to carry out in a peaceful times, it goes along with air raid alarms. And that's, that's pretty much as it is in the end of the day. We were recently asked, so most likely you have a war in Ukraine so you don't have to like, you don't have conditions to work and the civil society can't work at this moment. We said like, no, actually, everyone works like three times more, because you have to be safe and to save your clothes once. You volunteer or support any kind of humanitarian aid efforts military and you have to run your projects. So you have like three front lines, you care about your life, you care about your community and you have to care about your work. So the burden, the workload that everyone is carrying is a lot. And the crucial thing is I work with civil society activists and NGOs. My two fantastic colleagues are here in the room. Olana is the founder of Green Academy and partner and director of Cycling Association of Ukraine. None of them and none of my partners who are remaining in Kyiv or in Ukraine overall didn't stop working. And the idea is all of us, we were all pretty much the first pacifist, the first calling for non-violence and speaking about this during our Green Academy is that we organize every year in Ukraine. But now, now we are fundraising for bulletproof advice year for our friends. We check who is safe, who is not. I'm sorry for bringing up your case but it was 33 days in occupation. But now, she didn't give up and now we are all fighting and we are having all of our front lines. And we share the green values but we reconsider these green values. I'm a democracy coordinator I very much push for democracy agenda and I see how this group is operating and the civil society contributes. It's amazing. On the other hand, I feel like I want the democracy to be armed and this is what makes me, my daily work and what I see makes me reconsider the green agenda the values that I see in my country and also motivates me not to stop and I see the same about the civil society that I work with, they do not stop because they know that it's like now having war around we talk about already now on the day 140 days, we talk about reconstruction already because we know we cannot stop because we cannot wait until the end when the war will be over. Therefore we have already the eco activists and energy activists are talking about what's going to be the next reconstruction projects to make the cities better. Urban development activists are now discussing what are the needs and checking the needs how to reconstruct cities better. So already now no one is waiting people literally are already now talking about reconstruction and how to make the country liveable and to work further. But the crucial thing for this that actually to implement these projects is to be that the country starts to be safe at least a little bit. And another idea is that to create these conditions that people return we very much appreciate how Poland and many of other EU countries hosted Ukrainians from the very first day. I admire how literally the Polish borders were open for crossing for people and people were leaving on the very first days of the war. But also we want to create these conditions in our country that people return and they want and feel that it's safe enough to return and for this this requires quite a lot of immobilization. As I said the EU is clearly saying there will be no shortcut to get membership which means there should be work from the both sides. Ukrainian community as I see as I work I see they are ready to do this but it's also essential that there is support from the other side because as soon as we stop this the sooner people will return and also the cost of the war will be smaller for the rest. We see now the feedback we start receiving is well there is certain war fatigue that is coming winter is coming the gas prices and the prices people will start receiving bills pretty high bills and we'll pay it with our bank cards, with our cash literally from our pockets and then this is where all of us no matter where we live we will feel this war in our pockets super close. The second thing is so we talk about the fatigue we talk about the cost of this and also the third thing the spending, the military spending and defence spending. These costs of course could go for capacity development projects for development ideas for building industrial parks or just beautiful parks outside. I mean I see how the territory next to the river has changed a lot. This is all taxpayers' money and these taxpayers' money will now have to go for defence sector because now the whole Europe the concept of Europe has to reconsider how to protect itself because at the moment the military activities the physical threat is on the territory of Ukraine and Ukrainians are pretty much standing to keep it there and to end it as soon as possible but we need support we don't ask to come and to fight what at the moment everyone is asking stop buying Russian gas go with Embergo sanctions get rid of Russian media or not Russian media but fight this disinformation this is what's crucial because it's very well integrated in different spheres. There are a number of things to be done but it's essential to stop it as soon as possible because as I said winter is coming we start getting tired talking about war and reading about war crimes but it's also the money what could go for amazing parks around would rather go for defence sector for all of us or to support Ukraine in the end of the day and I would love to have amazing projects and run seminars on green values in Ukraine but at the moment if we don't protect if we don't provide enough arms no one for whom to deliver these projects and people who are right now displaced those millions, 7 millions or something people who are right now all across the Europe will be the cost to everyone and they will not return and even more people will start coming and it's essential that we create these safe preconditions for people and save to ensure that people are willing to return but this is as I said I'm saying this first of all as Ukrainian not as a program coordinator or as founder of the Green Assurance Project I'm saying it as Ukrainian what we need at the moment we need first of all arms we need further support and not fatigue because we are not tired as Maria said as others are saying we are not tired we are doing three times more now so we don't give up and we also ask everyone beyond Ukraine to stop on us even if it's going to be a bit costly because the cost will be it will increase but if we don't stop it now if we don't cut it now it will take for long and we drowsy prefer having it to stop it as soon as possible thank you thank you I'm now going to I hope your mic is open now I'm going to ask you so your specialist of EU-Russia relationship so if you can talk about this but also give us your view on the role that Poland is playing right now in this and also maybe how you feel the positioning of EU member states towards Poland and the Polish society has changed during the conflict and what impact it has on the Polish civil society and on the fight for rule of law in Poland etc I think your mic is working yeah it is thank you very much it's a huge pleasure to be with you here because I have a strong feeling that we have always to repeat our message that I have also the feeling that I have been doing this since the February 2022 and I'm going to I'm going to do the same today so once again I will explain why we as Europe and especially also as Poland we cannot give up our solidarity with Ukraine we have to improve our politics because we still have much to do but talking about Polish perspective I was thinking what to share with you because I know that I have only 10 minutes and it's always too short but I decided to share with you my free conclusions because talking about Poland we of course my start with great compliment that Poland was the main supporter of Ukraine we are still very solidar towards our Ukrainian colleagues and friends and families in fact but please remember this is mostly because of Polish people Polish government has made much but not enough and this is why we should remember that all these gestures of solidarity and absolute support for Ukrainian people this is because of Polish people because of grassroots movements people were going on to the border were taking the random family and giving them the shelter so this we should divide what is let's say what is the success of the government and what is the success of Polish society we should remember this because this is very important from my perspective so let's start I think that we should remember and we should underline that we as Poland we have to stress free elements and let's say free conclusions we have we have let's say in July after half a year of the war in Ukraine the first consequence for Poland is the security first yes this is the first what we have changed in Poland Poland turned out to be a front line country and because of this we turned out also to be a neighbor to an aggressive country to an aggressor which doesn't hesitate to violate the UN charter we are next to an aggressor which doesn't hesitate to commit war crimes like Bucza which doesn't hesitate to use terror methods like a few days ago in Vinica because bombing universities and bombing civil let's say some brandings this is terrorism and we should call Russia a rogue state finally don't be afraid to use proper terms so this is very important and for the very immediate change is the militarization and I am going to expect more militarization in public more militarization of public language more militarization in let's say Polish politics that's more than sure then today we spent 2% of GDP on our armies and it's going to be even more next year so we have a very populist government so we are going to have a populist and militarized government next year so we have to be afraid that Poland will have such a face very soon but of course we also should remember that next year we are just having military elections so there is a very small chance for a new government so this is the first consequence the second one is that alliances do matter because in Poland for a long time we had very long lasting discussions what to do with Polish security whether to organize our defense on ourselves like Israel but luckily because of war in Ukraine now we as the society understood that this is very naive to think about building our security only independently without further integration with European Union so for me this is the very positive consequence that we understood that Poland is not a lonely boat on the ocean on the global ocean so we have to be more integrated with NATO and we have to think twice what to do with our European policy because this is the problem our government is facing now what to do to give up the conflict with European Union because of violating rule of law in Poland or to go on and here I am not so optimistic so this is the second conclusion that in Poland we have finally understood that international cooperation really matters and it doesn't mean that we are losing our independence as many of our politicians claim and the second lesson learned is unfortunately very pessimistic and this is what I am afraid of that however we are facing the war the next door it doesn't impact our populist government that means that Putin's aggression on Ukraine has become the perfect cover for populist government and today we have the problem that for example the next year we are going to have the highest inflation in Europe and what is our government explaining this is because of Putin not because of our policy failures of our wrong decisions this is because of Putin's aggression what's more we are just waiting we are expecting new prices increases on electricity for example and what is our government talking to Polish people this is not because of us this is not because we have wasted millions of euros for green transition but this is because of Putin so that's this is why I am absolutely afraid that instead of instead of starting to think about country instead of starting to think about security and how to defend Poland from economic crisis we are just going on into more populism into more demagogy in Polish politics and these are free conclusions regarding to Polish Polish let's say agenda and let's say Polish politics vis-à-vis war in Ukraine and I was thinking also what is important to what the message as Poland we should give to our European colleagues how they should understand what's going on in Poland and I think that what is very important and this is also and this is also how we in Poland understand the war in Ukraine we stress that and we have noticed that our European colleagues have divided into two camps the first camp is the peace camp and the second one is the victory camp and Poland belongs to the victory camp that camp understands that the most important is to allow Ukraine to win not to stop the war immediately but to win because Polish diagnosis on Russia was not naive it was not Russophobia but it was absolutely based on our historical experience and we as Lithuania as Baltic countries we understand Russian nature of aggressive politics and we understand in opposition to some of our European colleagues that we have to bring Russia to how to say to have two defeats the first one in the military and the second one to make Russia collapse economically because only this way we we are able to avoid the situation when Russia a few years later will go back with a feels and with the strong feeling that it has survived spectacular historical sanctions and nothing and no one will be able to stop it so that's why we in Poland and in Eastern flank understand that peace for Europe security, European security are absolutely dependent on what we will do now with Russia either we will make Russia collapse military and economically or we will give Russia time to the wounds and go back with the feeling that no one might stop it so this is very important lesson not only to Poland but to our European colleagues and now I'm just finishing the second and third lessons are important but the first one was the basic one so also as Europe we should understand that the illusion that Russia might be a reliable partner has ended it's no more time to it's no more time for Russia first policy we have to invest our money, time and energy to strengthen post-soviet republics democratization in integration with Europe just to give them chance to be a part of the western world not a part of Russia's close neighborhood so and this is our role to do this and the last message is that this is also for us and I was talking this with Maria in Berlin last time this is side guys we should we should take this occasion just to make a huge step forward as Europe I understand and everyone who is dealing with Russia understands that Russia is afraid of only of a naked power instead of a stronger and more powerful partners so in our interest is to strengthen European Union to improve decision making in European Union and to go further with green transition because Russia depending on oil and gas has wasted the occasion to modernize instead of modernizing Russia has chosen the path of militarization so that's why cutting all these ties in energy with Russia we can Russia very successfully and this is the first step to our security and the first step to independence and sovereignty of Ukraine thank you very much thank you very much I think indeed it's very interesting that you show this paradox between a situation that is actually unifying Europe but at the same time strengthening a government that is participating to the weakening of the user it's a paradox that I think we have to think about Lena I'm going to give you the floor now basically the question I hope it still works yes cool what we would like to hear from you is what is the perspective of the youth and how you are politically active in this moment in Poland but also between different young green movement across the EU so give you the floor you also have 10 minutes but it's pretty fine to monitor the planet with women only because they more or less keep their time so that's cool yes I will try to stick to the 10 minutes or less good morning everybody so to answer the question the perspective of the youth on the situation on what security actually means when it comes to European youth and our Polish perspective definitely I think this analogy of this or this term that was said today so the victory camp and the peace camp definitely we can also see it among the green youth of course Poland also Polish we belong to this victory camp but the discussions on security because the discussions on the European level about security are we see the same division as we see when it comes to just green politics in general so we discuss what security actually means how we should approach it and I think when I realized there is this big division once we started discussing among the green European youth the question of NATO whether we are for or against because as greens in principle we are pacifists and NATO for many countries represents war and aggression which we as Poles I don't think Polish people look at it this way because to us alliances international cooperation equals security this is the certainty that we won't be left alone and that there will be a bigger brother to just help us defend in case for instance Russia decides to attack us next and I think I was really it really stroke me when I learned the arguments of the Western youth when we were discussing NATO because to me it was always obvious that I wish we had the world without armies without weapons but it's impossible and we see war in Ukraine really show that it is impossible to just pretend we can live without defense and investing into armies because yes there is a need for defending ourselves and I feel that being anti-NATO is a sign of privilege which on one hand I wish Polish young youth could also have because that would mean that we are strong on our own and we don't need to worry about defending ourselves just in case and I think that yes as I mentioned already for Polish people and for Polish youth security means cooperation on the international level unification and setting specific boundaries not passivism at all costs because as I said we are realists and we realize that it's not possible to just close our eyes and say yes we are we won't fight we don't want any armies we don't want any weapons because yeah it's we can just deal without it no we don't since the world broke out there are multiple times myself I was worried that what would happen in case I would wake up just as I did on the 24th of February and I learned that something happened in Poland I live in Germany right now and I cannot count how many times I was trying to come up with a plan what if what if it happens how I can get my family my parents to me to Germany because I have also this privilege I could quickly just arrange transport and they would be safe but so of course this is not comparable to the stress that the Ukrainian nation goes through but the threat is very close to us as well and this is something that is not reflected in the opinions and arguments that you have presented which is understandable again the threat is farther away but when we are discussing and somebody is questioning my stand or the stand of Polish Young Greens on this I just I cannot help but just think this is privilege which nobody should be shamed for but at the same time when you are privileged you need to realize that you need to understand your privilege you need to know what it entails and why you should listen to others who might understand the situation a bit better and this is something I wish we could I think on all levels not only among youth but also just in the general discussion international discussion to just say that what you can do is just listen and rely on our translation of the situation because we are closer we understand this better and I keep stressing this every single time when we are discussing this on the European level among the youth that we need to not disclose your eyes and tell us you know better because for you this NATO is a sign of this and that but you don't have to worry you don't have to come up with this plan how to transport your parents away from the war and what you would do in just in case so that's the message I think Polish and Greens would like to send to just please listen and realize what we are saying because the threat is just it's close and without essentially just without the victory of Ukraine we won't be able to have peace in Europe at all and then there won't be question whether we should have NATO or whether we should have armies there will be just a question who can survive Pathways that youth could explore exert pressure on the politics and the general status quo is a very difficult point and question to answer because if we knew I think we will be in a different place right now but there are a lot of youth movements that are very vocal right now and are just trying to push a change and they are mostly as I see activist based movements usually I mean political movements are also pretty prominent and we are trying to do our best but of course at the forefront are the activists who are usually climate activists or just young people who are fed up and I trust trying to do just unite and and just change by doing and at first I was very skeptical because there's always this debate whether activists should be or whether we should politics should be concerned with activism and activists should be concerned with politics and of course things are not always black and white there's always this gray area and things are intertwined in many ways but I was wondering because there's this debate whether we should change how politics is done because activism is about getting a hundred percent if you're asking for something and you're not looking for a middle ground you just want it because you understand the sort of pressure and I think the best example to illustrate this is the climate climate movements they ask for a hundred percent they are not trying to ask for fifty as politicians often do and so the question is whether we can actually do politics asking for a hundred percent even if we have this sort of choice and privileged actually still talk about fifty percent if we our houses on fire as is often said very critical because I thought that many activists even though they are quite effective they are not they often turn out not to be great politicians and it comes down to preparation I feel but I'm also I personally have a very idealistic outlook on politics from this as a service and many people who just get into politics they execute their own vision and sometimes it's very hard for them to function in the system where we have to compromise and but we see that this is not helping and even this fifty percent creates tensions and creates conflicts and that means that the system is stubborn to work and I think soon we will have to decide and reevaluate whether politics as it is done right now can even function and I think from my generation it cannot because we already expect different things and we are already asking for the hundred percent we are trying to do more radical politics and we use this word radical but in a very positive sense here so I think we will see big shift and maybe this is also in the context of security of this situation of this war in Ukraine maybe this is like another push to just to a change and at the end of the day I wish we didn't have to have this situation but it might just turn our politics and on a different path which might be more effective for the future because the world as I see it is just only getting worse and we have more and more complications and my generation might change it but we need different tools and different setups and what the youth can also do and I wish it would is just to prepare again if we are going to do activist politics and I really hope we do because again we cannot be asking for fifty percent anymore the youth to do it well needs to learn learn and learn needs to learn new skills and prepare for being a politician just being this greater every generation says that they will be a better one than the previous one and it's usually not the case because we are all just repeating the same mistakes but I really hope that if not my generation my children will be those who actually do things the right way in the better way and not repeat the mistakes we've been making and I think that my generation that's why I'm still hopeful even though I'm just very critical when it comes to this idealistic ideas is that my generation we have this very natural way of just grouping and associating ourselves and I think that the way we can win is just to stand together and not just play everybody for themselves so and we do it very well as the climate strikes as different movements shown that we are very good at organizing ourselves and asking for what we want and we can exert pressure so this is definitely how we can move forward and again I wish we didn't have to do it right now and I wish so many young people didn't have to sacrifice so much to just basically ask for security and for air to breathe in the future also for their children but if this is needed we will do it together in a group and hopefully this will just change how everything is done in 50 years if I will be ever sitting in a panel like that again I will be just talking and reflecting back on how certain bad events in the 20s or 21st century actually created a situation that we are living in a better world right now, better because finally somebody put their foot down and created a different infrastructure for how politics and activism is done yes I think this is, I hope I answered the question on the perspective of the youth thank you very much so that's good that you also talked about the debate on NATO that's I think something that came across all different youth organizations out of the Greens but also Green Parties in general and that you talked about how we do politics and whether we are to what extent we can continue to try to compromise and what is the price for this because now I'm going to give the floor to someone who first had to discuss about all this thing including NATO in the European Parliament which is a place where you can ask for 100% but you always get something around 50 because that's the place for compromise so basically the question is when can you tell us all the, like when the war started it obviously shaped a lot of positions of the Greens and I guess there were a lot of debates inside of the group on sending weapons on spending suddenly a lot of money on military expenditures on NATO so could you explain us how how it went the debates inside of the Green Family in the European Parliament and maybe also if you could tell us what impact this debate had on other issues like what we do with the rule of law what we do with the enlargement procedure like how this situation when it comes to the war also impacted the way we deal with other topics we were already dealing before I think you have a mic Yes, thank you Hello everyone Yeah indeed the Ukraine war of course was something that triggered new debates accelerated some degraded some in our group in the parliament and then into institutional discussion between the three institutions of course for our group I think that the first thing that has to be said is that there are a number of positions that we had already and that we then pushed even more and on these aspects there were basically no debate but there was even more the wish to push on this of course it's the idea of cooperation the idea of unity and the idea of political coordination because if you are to put more money for military at least you want a European coordination and not a 27 national coordination it comes back to something that you talked about about every country thinking it's defending itself and for once there was this idea of a European defense of course it strengthens unity I will come back on some aspects that have been said maybe sometimes with the sacrifice of some foolish specific debates for example and it and we ask for even more cooperation we also of course used the situation to focus on the fact that we needed transparency every time we needed scrutiny of parliament on how the money is used and how these military aspects come in and control of arms and of course we always say that even in war human rights are a fundamental thing it also of course comes without saying it also of course strengthens our debate on climate issues and energy and it has the paradox that it has brought back some call to be functioning again in Germany in France and the winter is coming and we will not exactly know how it will turn but it had the effect that suddenly everyone was saying we need to get out more quickly from fossil fuels so this is of course it made our discourse relevant also on autonomous energy and all of this and then of course it strengthens our positions on the enlargement the question of the Balkans the fact that they had been put on the side for a long time and with Ukraine asking for a quicker European Union it allowed us greens to recall that we needed to address the situation of Montenegro and of Macedonia which are two member states that are fully complying with a number of what we are asking and are still not seeing their path to European Union's going speedy so these are the main things where we were basically just reinforcing and enriching our positions and then of course they are those topics where it was more difficult it doesn't mean that we were fighting or anything but it did make us debate the first one and I think it was really the sentence Maria said was very nice all of the question of arming peace indeed history of green parties in a number of our member state is from pacifist parties a very common history of our parties in France, in Netherland, in Germany I mean very very often and it is one of our main trends and it doesn't mean that it's a naive way of seeing peace and it doesn't mean that we haven't had for years discussions about wars because wars have been happening everywhere sadly on the planet we had to decide what we would do about it in each of our parties but of course for the first time it became very relevant and very close and very urgent to take decisions which we could have always a bit put on the side and having a very ferritic way for the first time it was no more ferritic honestly it didn't make that debate much debate in the group it is it was very clear for everyone that the situation meant that we had to put more money for arms and for security and it's not indeed what we think is the priority in time of peace we always defend other means of other use for money but this was a particular moment and once again we would always say but this means first that we need political coordination second that we want not France to go on increasing its own budget but it's a more coordinated money and free of course parliamentary scrutiny but we had to come to this very difficult realistic consideration that we had to arm peace yes it happens we had the discussion on NATO there again on a geopolitical debate we often have these different point of views in France and in certain country as you said in a very nice way we have this privileged way of things that America is not a protection and we have been always very criticizing America and then you might have heard of some of important French member politics members from all political sides in France being very sort of in a defiant position towards USA for years now and NATO is symbolizing the domination of USA for a lot of our green or leftist people in France and a number of other member states so this is indeed a complicated discussion we always have very prudent words on NATO even today when we did our last paper on security and peace that was the major discussion days you have to not forget also that we have member states that are still not wanting to align in any way yes Finland has changed its position for example Denmark but it's not the case of Austria for example which is still a country that doesn't want to align and our Austrian greens are very close to this position so the wording that we use for NATO is always very prudent but there again I don't think it stirred that much disagreement we just needed to find the prudent wording and I think we acknowledge the fact that it is a privileged way of saying things that as you said we shouldn't be ashamed but we should enlarge it that it's because we could see things like that for years and hopefully this debate will always exist because it's healthy that the debate exists now the third issue which was not a debate between us at all but is a difficult situation for us greens in the European Union debate and the inter-institution discussion is the rule of law issue this is an issue where we greens have been at the forefront a lot we have the reports on that we have the pressuring commission, council we are the group really always fighting on Hungary and Polish and trying to be the voice other groups are but we even more than others are trying to be the voice of Polish and Hungarian society and of course in this debate in this very specific moment since you quinoa the Polish situation has considerably changed on the European Union stage when I became a member of the European Parliament in 2019, it's my first term Poland was very very isolated it was the isolated member state all the groups would be very unhappy with Poland except from ICA the group where the government party is in council I would always hear a very bad thing about the Polish government and basically it was the the isolated government and Hungary was not because at the time Fidesz Orbán's party was still in the big group in Parliament there was still a lot of chief of government would have good relationship with him even Angela Merkel was a bit sometimes prudent with Viktor Orbán and basically he was very good in dealing with things so he would be still in the big group and in three years we have been seeing a complete shift now Hungary is very isolated and Poland is no more and in fact even Poland government has managed to be a bit in the centre of things these last month and this is of course very very concerning for us and dangerous to deal with this how do we do when we also know all the hypocrisy that's behind it I mean in the month it was one month after the beginning of the war when all the refugees were coming in Poland and we had this discussion with lawyers and judges these very lawyer judges that have been fired by the government or so sanctioned that their life is so hard and all of these lawyers that are fighting and you know they were the ones saying I have a family in each of the rooms of my house the government is not doing anything about the refugees and we are being told yes but we should basically be indulgent with your government because now you are welcoming all these refugees so we should do something about you and we were in this very bizarre situation where in fact the government it was instrumentalising a very specific situation and there was sort of a double punishment for the leftist activists at the same time the one fighting the government and at the same time the more fighting next to the refugees and on this so this is something we have to be very careful of we have a real threat that civil society in Poland would be sacrificed in the name of unity in the name of facing the Russian Putinisation and the Russian fight against rule of law which is as you said very paradox so this is one of our big threat and this is a debate we have a lot how do we greens be careful in this debate to find the path where indeed we work with we need Poland to go on being this fighter against Russia at least in the symbols and the values and all of this and what they say but we still go on criticising what is happening very strongly and we are not indulgent and we are not giving money to a government if it's for them to badly use it and not use it for the welcoming of the refugees and for restricting things and for recovery etc etc free quick issues that I wanted to focus on is the issue I think that how rape in Ukraine was used once again and it's we know that it's for centuries millionaires been uninhabited but how rape has been used as a war weapon has not made I feel enough debate in France and has not been used and also how immediately women and children came to all of our countries and then men stayed and how women are facing and coping with the situation I think that this gender issue is not working enough on it women in war how do we deal with this I think it's even more relevant to talk about this topic in Poland where the attack against women the worst attacks on human rights of this government and how they are the one really being sacrificed I just wanted to also tackle the issue of very bizarre dynamics at the moment in all member states we are in a moment where discussions are going to be different and situations are going to be strange we have all the full goal countries they don't want to put money anymore in European Union and how are they going to deal with this situation we have indeed the reinforcement of the discussion of we need to open our arms to Balkans and Europe is also there and we need to protect them from a version it has also meant that countries like the Baltic countries have step in the debate much more than they had always been the Baltic countries would be very silent in most of the debates in council, in commission and all this and the Baltic countries are really speaking up much more so we are seeing an involvement of these free countries that I think is very interesting and will maybe also help shaping things with the eastern countries and then the last thing I wanted to signal is of course the discussion on refugees we manage with this crisis to use this thing that existed for a long time in our text the temporary protection we had not managed to use it for the Syrian people we left them on the side for the Ukrainian we managed it's absolutely amazing you have to in a country like France there is one place where Ukrainian refugee will arrive all in four and these in four goes not only from how do you do your papers but how you can find a job how we can help you with housing how can we send your children to school how can we help you with benefits welfare benefits and all this something that we have never been able in this European Union to provide to any refugees before even those that manage they manage after 20 years of very hard difficult situations for the Ukrainian we used it I do hope that this will be an example that we can and that it facilitates everyone's life in fact it's not that difficult and that we should use it more often thank you thank you very much to the four of you I'm now opening the floor for questions we are basically on time I mean we kept our time people before us were late but yeah so if anyone has questions I see a lot of people that's cool so maybe I will collect three maybe and then we take another round okay could you introduce hi I'm Tomasz Genow from Poznań in Poland as on an occasion of talking about the rule of law I have my remark that we should not understand it in a narrow sense that it's only about Kurds and tribunals because if we treat it seriously we see that in Poland because I know this politics the best better than other countries so in Poland I see that the ignorance of rule of law is not only in the governing party but also in the biggest oppositional party like it's platform because the European programs like infrastructure and environment have certain goals and we can't complain that these goals are not enough green and we think about new programs but the practice was that even such minimum green program which is included in this big operational programs they are just ignored and the European Union believes that the people on the place care about this program and control does not exist because this documents for money are accepted by the ministry or province governance and in Poland they are just happy that the capital is coming to the country and they don't care about development they care about the growth so the local companies are happy because they build something but they build for example city highways and the projects are done with the pretext so we improve a little bit a tram truck but we have a huge highway and so this is like this thank you thanks a lot for the floor my name is Efthymios Raphael Angelis and I live in Athens in Greece so I would like to state that even if I acknowledge the need that the eastern countries have for NATO I would like to state that it's not a privilege for some countries it's also like NATO criticism it's not a privilege because for example in Greece when both Greece and Turkey are in NATO and NATO funds for weaponry in both countries and actually it's NATO behind the tension and Greece like spends a lot of partition of the GTP for weaponry when we could invest the same money in alternative in sustainable resources in sustainability in this case it's not that we criticize NATO because we have anti-USA narrative it's just that we criticize NATO because for us it causes a problem because if there is an invasion of Turkey in Greece no one is going to help us from NATO and I think that this criticism is more than like it's you can use it in order to find alternatives as an alternative might be a European army or common safety policy but in a real pan-European federalistic level and not just creating mechanisms like front-ext for example front-ext is a mechanism that violates human rights in borders like front-ext participates in push-backs of refugees so instead of in European level creating useless mechanisms we might use the anti-NATO criticism in order to improve our union and find common realistic solutions to our problems for all European countries in a pan-European level. Thanks a lot. First of all I'm very happy to have 100% female debate on this issue because I believe that we have some issues and topics and positions and lights that we probably would not have if we had 100% male debates as it's usually the case in this topic so I have just one question for Gwendolyn and one question for Lena. For Gwendolyn what do you think about European defence if there is some progress because we are there are so many years that we are speaking about this European defence is it still a new topia or are we a little bit going progress on this topic and to Lena I know that you are interested and you work on digital security and we have this digital war of information and we have a lot of articles in Poland about the ideology of Dugin, Alexander Dugin who is one of advisers of putting on this how to use this digital war of information in this cold war or war for power what do you think about this protection, about this disinformation and using the internet for that thank you. And one more here sorry I don't remember who is first thank you my name is Evadrija I come from Warsaw I would like to comment about Ukraine and Russia that if obvious if you observed the history and the moves of Russia the aggression will be just going forward so since the Chechen wars, since the aggression on Georgia and then the Crimea and there was this famous letter of the Polish intellectuals including Professor Bartoszewski which was warning the west so as not to repeat the mistake which was made towards Hitler so they were warning not to appease Russia because it will end like this that Russia will move forward with this aggression so I would like to turn your attention to the fact that European companies despite all this hostile acts of Russia and aggression on the neighboring countries they pursued with making business and I mean not only gas but also in very sensitive areas like the fence and even now this year after the start of the war they say ok we will not make interest like business in gas but why not make some nuclear deal I mean one of the French companies I think our task now is to make this huge pressure on the politicians and on business and on the companies so as not to make this happen again that we have such ties of the companies and so on and when the crisis comes they say oh we cannot afford to cut connections with Russia because we are so financially dependent and the other issue I would like to rise here is the issue of human rights and in the context of the Covid so I see this huge threat that the vaccine mandates how there is such a big risk of human rights violations and they took place in European countries and also in other democracies like Canada and Australia and I think that our biggest strength and the future of the citizens of Europe is the human rights and is the main value which we should defend so we should take care of that thank you thank you I'll be very quick ok so hello my name is Jun otherwise so apologies for my pronunciation but to Anjeska you were talking a lot about how for example governments like to push the blame on external factors such as the war in Ukraine and then they abandon their responsibility for citizens because I feel about the situation in the UK because we had a lot of corruption with covid scandals and spending 33 billion contract tracing system that didn't work, for example, and that is a factor in inflation. So my question would be like, how do we get governments to take responsibility to care for their citizens while also keeping support for Ukraine as well and not just blaming Russia as the boogeyman and actually doing something about it rather than just blaming it? Okay, thank you very much. I propose that we start the other way around. So I'm going to first maybe give you the floor, Sofia, for the, I think, the question before the last question on whether it's actually accurate to say that the aggression was obviously coming and that we had elements to foresee it. Which one do you prefer? Well, that's a very fair point because in 2014, we saw that how it all started. Then we had Minsk agreements and there was sort of a, there are going to be a ceasefire, but ceasefire never happened. That was like constantly violations of the ceasefire and that was like literally believing Russia that they will stop at one point. No, that's quite a risky business. But it's not only about that it was, indeed it was clear something like this is going to come. Me personally, I would still trying to deny the fact that they will attack Kiev. Like maybe it's my tunnel vision, but I was still like trying like, I didn't want to accept this fact, but it happened. And now I know like, yes, it was pretty clear that they will never allow and they will never recognize Ukraine as an independent state and moving into European Union direction or any other direction than Russia. Another aspect was crucial to talk about today's war is colonial ambitions that Russia had. And now we understand that what's happening in the moment, this is this imperialist approach that Russia was having for years, literally for years. So we talk here from 1990 and even before because we talk about how Russia was fostering this energy dependence, industrial dependence, how they were eradicating any signs of identity. Even in art, you will often see Russian artists but rarely said saying Ukrainian artists. So now when we look today, we see what we have the situation they attack is something that was happening already preparing for many, many years because again, Russia would never, would like to accept or take any other direction that Ukraine would take than Russia. And therefore indeed it is. One maybe more remark, this is also to the panelists because we talk about this, we cannot sacrifice right now the civil society and the human rights. Indeed, I mean, sacrificing many, making any concessions in terms of land, of human rights equals the same. If we say like we give up on human rights, it's a victory to Russia. If we give up on civil society, it's a victory for Russia. If we give up on Ukraine, I mean, this is a victory for Russia but a big loss for everyone. Therefore here I would say like we should be really having this unity as it is at the moment but rather than divide because the divide will mean, again, this is a victory for Russia but a loss for all of us. Thank you. Thank you very much. I'm now going to give the photo to Aniashka. I think basically the first and the last questions were more for you, so. More or less. Full of flow. But the last one was absolutely for you. Yeah. But let's start with Poznan question. You know, what you were mentioning, it's absolutely a very important issue for Poland because just imagine, when Poland was joining European Union in 2004, we were believing that this is the end of history. Yes, that we are just stepping the heaven and our life will be good for the rest of our life. Our life. So what we have wasted, this is an occasion to work on civic education. Yeah, we forgot to teach our young generation that European Union is not only money. This is not only about, let's say, comfort life but this is, these are human rights. This is, let's say, rule of law. And we spoiled that occasion. Yes, I do not blame exactly only peace government but I blame all our governments that were ruling our country for so many years. Since 2004, they were talking about everything but about education, about critical thinking. You know, this is the problem. We have to go back to the roots and start talking about not only about constitution but also about basic rights, basic human rights and our obligation as citizen. So this is the problem. This is the failure we have to make up very quickly because if not, we have to be ready for more populism, for more right-wing parties, for more, let's say, radicals. Yeah, I am really afraid of our next elections because I predict that peace government will win but not with the majority in the parliament but I am afraid about the support for our extra, our alt-right party, which is confederacja and confederacja, this is absolutely, not only these are not only populist but these are very dangerous people because they are very influenced by Dugin, by Kremlin, they are talking about more, not only conservatism, they are talking about making Russia in Poland, yes, about making Russia be similar to, let's say, yes, Aga is, yeah, yeah. Okay, it was not a very, yeah. That was a pretty large question. Okay, so this is one thing and another thing is, the answer to you is that I am asking the same question because I would like my government, okay, these are right-wing politicians but they should think about people and the country and I think that they should take responsibility in our upcoming elections. So we have to vote, let's say like, do you remember Navalny's intelligent, smart voting? Yes, we have to vote smart. You know, the idea of Navalny is very actual in Poland so I think that this is one thing but- Don't vote for the Tories. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the solution. And you know, these both answers are combined because without civic education, Polish people very often, they are not prepared for voting. We don't read programs, political programs. We do not understand what is the left and what is the difference between the left and the right. What does it mean, peace government? Whether it is not only conservative but these are much more than conservative. They are ready to implement traditional values like in the past, President Putin was implementing in Russia, peace government is ready to violate human rights, to fight opposition, to close independent media. Of course, I do not expect that we will have Navalny and such activists will end up in a jail but we are very close to Russian path and this is why I am absolutely afraid and I am calling my Polish colleagues, my Polish friends and Polish generally to vote smartly next year. Yeah, thank you. Lena, I'm going now to ask you if I think the question on NATO and Greece was directly directed to you and then the question on digital security and the role of internet in peace and security. Yes, so when it comes to NATO and the Greek-Turkish conflict I think of course the situation is very complex and saying that every single country that's anti-NATO has the same sort of reasoning would be oversimplifying it and but it's still I think that of course even though there are different reasons still in this debate right now when we are talking about the defense and defending Ukraine and Baltic countries, Poland, it's still a privilege to say that we can do without it. Of course, I agree with you that we should be looking for better solutions and maybe have European army, maybe just find another way and ideally find a way so that we never have to have this debate again but I think right now we cannot, I think it would be very irrational or irresponsible to spend time looking for new solutions when we need to act now and we need to take certain steps right now and again, I'm not saying NATO is an ideal organization and I love everything about this but it's a promise of security for me as a Polish citizen so that's I think even though I agree with you and this is not as simple as we can just put into a word privilege, it is still a privileged position in a way to just maybe not be aware of certain reasons and certain phenomena and to say no, we don't want it and but then we do instead. NATO is currently supporting the war efforts or the defense of Ukraine and saying no to it and just cancel it is wrong. In Germany for instance, I live in a fairly political city and there's a lot of students who are interested in politics it's mostly green, mostly leftist options and I see a lot of banners saying the legalized NATO, fact NATO, different things and for me it's just very interesting to see just after the war broke out. The banners weren't there or maybe they weren't so prominent before and they're there now and we're talking about defending a country in Europe which is very close to Germany. So this is the big dissonance I see and something I just don't understand because maybe I'm just aware of too many things and I have to be aware of too many things. That's what I mean by privilege. And when it comes to disinformation this is a very interesting topic. First of all, there's a difference between disinformation and misinformation. Disinformation is spreading purposefully information that is wrong for different purposes whereas misinformation is spreading information that is wrong but by accident, by believing that for instance something is this or that but it's actually not that but you just haven't checked or you haven't done your research and you're just passing the information on. Russia has been excellent at spreading disinformation for years and it was mostly visible in the Balkans where there was this big full-fledged campaign on an anti-EU essentially. So there was a big infiltration of information just spreading anti-EU communications and information and it was working. There are studies done, it was working. It was really changing the narrative and the public view on the EU. And right now during this war, disinformation is essentially one of the bigger weapons because it influences our responses all around the globe and we can see it in the changes also Polish debate. There's a lot of disinformation that people believe in because it's usually very black or white, very simple messaging, something that it's easy to fall for and people just don't have this sort of tools to distinguish what's right or wrong and they're just too lazy to do their research but of course like if we have media, we want to just get the information from there. Not everybody has time to do some research and I think the key here and that's what the EU has been doing for years as well is to just educate people on critical thinking and on finding information that's correct. Yes. Thank you. I've just learned that we really have to finish soon so Gwen, if you can answer in one sentence about the European Defence Union in one sentence. Okay, there was a few other questions but I can answer only this one. We're not advancing that well, no it's still more about just adding money to buy weapons, a bit of thinking of autonomous supply chains and all of this and a bit of thinking about coordination but then we would go in a lot of discussion on unanimity and all of this but of course what happened with the Hungarian government especially on the sanctions and all of this I think is on the other hand opening the mind of a lot of governments on the fact that we need to advance on some political coordination that are not threatened by one member state when it wants to take a stage topic so this is, I think that we have hope on a work that would be holistic with a lot of criterias of human rights and all of this thinking behind it but for the moment honestly it's more just about adding money. Thank you very much. That's, yeah you won't say, it's all right. Thank you very much all of you, thank you. I just wanted to say that we will adjust our plans a bit so let's make a very short break till 12. At 12 the streams will start so be please a bit disciplined I know it's very tense but there are very interesting streams waiting at 12 and then 1.30 we will be back here for the discussion with a green European member of parliament so this is the plan.