And we're live. I'm Anthony dream Johnson founder of 21 Studios and the 21 convention today It's a special interview and special edition of 21 live starings to fan Molly new From YouTube and Twitter known around the world for his philosophy show He's an upcoming speaker at the 21 convention this October in Florida and Richard granite from Spartan life coach on YouTube I'm the big youtuber He focuses on toxic relationships healing from them and abuse and he's also an alumni speaker of the 21 convention He first spoke at our poem event Recently about a month and a half ago in Warsaw, Poland Gentlemen, thanks for joining me on today's show. Well, thanks. I just wanted to point out given that your middle name is dream and Spartans Is life I feel my middle name is is lacking in something so You can just refer to me as Stefan daydream hunkasaurus Molly you I feel that's a that's a Latin a way of describing me And I think that'll work now to work. Yeah, it's an old for me It's an old pickup community thing and my middle name is actually not dream yet, but it will be soon for now It's Paul So but I know I'm by you know, whatever Now are we are we gonna take some calls today or most of your questions? Yeah, mostly my questions, but we'll take questions from the not live on the phone or anything We'll take it from the chat. I can pop them up on the screen like this and that way the whole audience can see them Yes, so guys for those of you watching as we go through the show if you have questions Just type them up and make it clear and simple and I'll post it up on the screen and we'll get to them So today's interview in this show I want to focus on is on parenting and abuse and how that affects men and masculinity and the man is for itself And how it's even developed this whole community of men the migthow community That's a part of that the pickup artists community the red pill community and even the men's rights activists How parenting and abuse and spanking have affected men in the culture over time over recent decades? Spartan life coach here Richard gran and does a really good job as well on his channel of focusing on toxic Relationships and abuse and how that helps or affects men and women over time how they can heal from that What's the fun though? We did a show obviously in the red man group just a couple weeks ago And it was a big splash to even discuss this topic at all I was surprised in that Stefan specifically you've probably seen this a lot, but any discussion of parenting like this It's taken it's super controversial I mean it easily ranks up there with you know religion and politics if not even more abrasive So it's fun to see that but obviously we tried to get off that for the rest of the show and get back to other topics on men masculinity So Stefan the first thing I wanted to ask you How does peaceful parenting help boys become men? Why can't we just all be masculine fathers and beat the crap out of our kids and spank them as we need to and all that You know why is peaceful parenting peaceful parenting useful for that? Well, I mean I think that really goes into the heart of the question, which is what is masculinity? Well masculinity is provision and protection, right? So what have men historically done for us to become the apex predators top of the food chain is men have provided For women because of course women were at least economically largely disabled through constant Pregnancies and and childbirth and breastfeeding and healing and pregnancy of this kind of cycle and women did contribute something to food Production in sort of ancient societies, but it was mostly the men who provided the calories. So provision is How men are defined and protection, right? Because it's sort of like the male lions that circle the perimeter of the pride group and make sure that no other competing lions Come in and rip apart the tribe or so on so provision and protection defines us as men Not violence now violence and self-defense. That's one thing right protecting your family protecting your community protecting your tribe From people who would usually men who'd want to come in and do you harm Well, that's that's an important part of masculinity not so much in the modern world, right? So how do we best provide and how do we best protect our communities? Well, we provide for our communities by advocating for free markets because free markets allow for the allocation of resources To accrue to those who are the most expert at increasing them Like if you if you have a business idea that people perceive as twice as valuable as mine You're probably going to get twice the investment If they're accurate in their assessment, you're going to produce twice twice the wealth and I will so The way that we provision for society as a whole is to advocate for free markets now How do we protect society as a whole?  That is brutalization and of course we all know I've gotta remember when I was 11 or 12 was hiking the woods with a friend of mine and some 17 year old older boys You know, and that's quite a span when you're a kid, you know Bullied us for like an hour or two and and then eventually let us go and so on. Well, that was you know, pretty mean and negative thing I wouldn't say that that had anything to do with masculinity because we'd look and I said to one of the guys Why don't you pick on someone your own size because that's kind of gross when you if you're a man And you say well, I'm gonna prove my manhood by going and punching a girl guide It's like I don't really think that's proofing your manhood. Yes Provision and protection is important the most helpless and dependent and and weak so to speak members of society are our children and we do not serve provision or protection by hitting our children We should save any capacity for aggression that we have in the protection of free markets and the protection of our Geographical territory in the form of national defense now, obviously, there's a huge difference Well, at least this is what most people would say in response to part of that there's a huge difference between really severe domestic violence and Spanking like a three-year-old. So what do you say to those people who draw? They're trying to draw a distinction between that they don't they want to knee-jerk and say no, it's not abuse.  Well, of course there are differing levels of abuse But they're all still on the continuum of abuse and the simple answer to that It's somebody says I hit a three-year-old. Okay, I Mean, I don't even know what to say about that other than this The pain there's the surprise the shock and the pain has to be great enough To be aversive to the three-year-old in other words, let's say the old traditional example The kid is reaching for a boiling pot of water or the kid is running towards the road, you know, like in the Stephen King Movie and and so what do you do?  Well, it has to be Enough of a shock surprise and pain that it is supposed to alter the child's behavior So saying well, it's just a little light tap on the butt That's not what spanking is spanking is the infliction of aversive pain to fundamentally change behavior There's elements of intimidation and fear in that too, right? It is something that the child like if the child's running towards the road Pet symmetry I couldn't if the child is running towards the road.  I mean it has to be something that's really big and life-threatening for you to spank At least that's a general idea and what if you taught your child?   No You simply taught the child that daddy can unpredictably from the child's perspective and randomly Explode in rage and inflict pain for no comprehensible reason to the child So that is not protecting a child that is abuse and of course the law You know if you say Well That look if you're you beat up your girlfriend, but you only spank her right or or you don't hit her Open face or you try that at a mall or you try that with a boss or a co-worker The law is going to say well, I guess it's not egregious bodily harm, but it's still pretty bloody illegal So the law of course does recognize different degrees of abuse But it doesn't take the lesser forms of abuse and transform them into virtue And why should why should adults have infinitely greater protection from the law than children? So my next question is what do you say to the The response and the criticism that different communities do different things I'm not an expert on this but from what I understand for example Asian parents and culture they're more prone to spanking and hitting their children things like that I could be wrong on that specifically, but this is something I've heard I know that from culture to culture the Norm for this kind of discipline and this kind of spanking and abuse and stuff it differs So what do you say to the kind of relative this argument that well my culture does this this is how I was raised This is where I came from I do different culture aren't all cultures equal or isn't everything the exact same right? Well, the principles are equal and my memory of the data is that east asian spank the least white spank a little bit more Hispanic spank a little bit more and I think black spank the most And so but the morals are the same we don't have For the most part different standards of law based upon racial or ethnic origins, right? Like we don't say well, you know east asians can shop lifts, but Hispanics do it It's really really bad We have principles and the principle the foundational principle Of morality is the non-aggression principle, which is you shall not initiate force Responding to force in self-defense is perfectly appropriate and actually I think quite moral But you can't initiate force against others Again, except in an extremity of self-defense, which is not an initiation now clearly spanking Is not self-defense, you know that the child we assume the three-year-old is not running at you with some flame thrower And and so it's not self-defense It is the initiation of force against disarmed and helpless and dependent opponents Which is it's bullying that that's all it is and it's very very clear that it doesn't work Right, this is the thing if spanking works. Why do you have to keep doing it? You know 40 percent of parents even when their kids hit their tweens are still spanking It's like well if you've now been spanking For 12 or 13 years and you still have to spank clearly clearly empirically factually From a data standpoint, it ain't working and the studies are very very clear That you will get short-term compliance with long-term resentment and undermining of your authority hitting children does not Give you authority. It does not give you respect. It does not give you love. In fact, it's quite the opposite Damn, it sounds like something rich granite. I'm sure is chewing on right now I am Different things that I could see I could see it on your face. Yeah. Yeah. So it's coming through The psycho the psychoanalytic perspective from gegec on spanking was that effectively by choosing to hit You're actually not asserting power and dominance and potency.  Not your fists. I mean talk about a mind Frack of the first order. Oh, you know, you can't you can't if you want something You can't use violence to get what you want. I want you to change your behavior. Whack I mean, it's completely incomprehensible to children That adults are allowed to do things that are expressly forbidden To children and not only is it forbidden to children It's wrong for children to use force to get what they want But apparently it's perfectly fine for adults to use force to get what they want That is not how you get respect out of a child if you want your child to Obey norms, which we do and children shouldn't be completely running wild I don't like the lord of the flies unparenting stuff But you model better behavior you model reasoning with other people you model Negotiation with your spouse you model all of this kind of stuff and you model negotiation With the child or with the children if they're having disputes with each other you model all of that And then they will inherit that behavior of reasoning with people as surely as they inherit the language they they grow up This is a question of both of you So I agree with what Stefan what you're saying that it's confusing and hypocritical to hit your children Especially when it doesn't work over time and you should be a parent through the data You're getting back from the child who doesn't respond to it in the short term compliance and all that My question is how does being a hypocritical parent? Through this model, how does that confuse and disorient the child through the development of the childhood? How they've been chatting a lot to a Spartan life coach. Do you want to take this one? Yeah Yes, I do and it ties in with the last point the stuff I made about the double bind that children have put in if you hit them Whilst in a heightened state of emotion and you've lost your impulse control And you're just going i'm going to hit you now because I've run out of words and then say use your words Don't hit another kid at school. You put them in a double bind to answer your question Anthony That warps the child that breaks their boundaries because that now they have to live in this cat's 22 It's wrong to hit unless it's wrong to hit unless and they come on that that creates cognitive dissonance Which is extremely stressful. It also disempowers them because you're saying don't act when on the threat you Both broken their boundaries and asked them to carry a burden that's too much to carry It's very very warping. There's going to have a warping effect on the kids perception on the kids boundaries That would be my short answer to that question. Yeah, yeah, both of you are good at uh, you know extended answers you on this stuff. I love it My next question then is going to be let's take a step back Uh, why is it so controversial to have any serious discussion or debate over spanking or any kind of physical discipline of children?  There is no debate on it. Everyone's shut up We're not allowed to talk about it. It's it's in my opinion. It's even worse. I think than a religion in politics There's there's a few things above it and like, you know parenting abuse and sex seem to be the only things that surpass those So why is that? Why can't we talk about it? Well, because we're complicit for the most part, you know people people don't like to have moral rules imposed that show them In a bad light we always we all want to be the moral heroes in our own life And we can either do the high hard road of actually becoming moral heroes Or we can just redefine morality to justify anything that we ever did and when you start poking around with that kind of stuff It's tough people have a lot of regret They have a lot of regret about this stuff It's like the stuff that I post on twitter about women when I say to them, listen, you're gonna live for 80 plus years What are you gonna do with the last 40 when you're no longer sexually it nearly is sexually attractive to men That's a lot of time to fill with you know volunteering at the old cash shelter And so when when I started this show with the non-aggression principle and all of that I mean it was not that complicated a question. I said, okay, I want philosophy To have the most impact on where people Live how they actually act now. I mean there's things I really really don't like Central banking foreign policy and wars and so on But I don't have any particular direct levers to change those things I can't snap my fingers and get rid of central banking and have a rational economic system again But when it comes to the non-aggression principle Most of us have not been beaten up in an alleyway at least as adults at least I hope most of us have not been Too prison most of most of us have not necessarily been in a whole bunch of street fights in our 40s But where is it that we enact the most violence? As human beings well unless we're part of ms 13 It's in the home and it's against their own children And that's where most people are morally compromised and they're morally compromised the most and it's even worse because In their minds not only do they think well, you know, I lost my temper, but it's part of parenting They think it's a good thing.  Of course the rod refers to instruction not to beating Uh someone with a stick. So this is where people have had the most Violations of a moral rule in their life both as victims and often as an actor So when you start talking about a moral rule That is not abstract But is where people have put most of their hands and fists to work People get very very uncomfortable and that's why it's so hard to progress in society because there's so many people Who react so strongly to regret and shame that rather than say, you know, I did the wrong thing man I really should have read more. I really should have learned more. I really should have had empathized more They say oh, you're a bad guy for bringing this topic up because apparently evil is just whatever makes heat in us feel bad these days Yeah, yeah Then we have a questionnaire by the way, it's uh, I think it's related enough to bring on the show It was from uh, charles ven ducan on youtube Hi, i'm a fan of staphon ba political philosophy made a career in it kids now out of the house Curious to hear you guys discuss the origins of and reason for male circumcision in western society This seems similar to me in that it's a physical intrusion on a child I know the circumcision is a whole fucking issue we could get into and I don't think we need to do a half hour on it But i'm curious about your your thoughts on it in relation to things like spanking and abuse It's evil evil totally wrong totally immoral and needs to be stopped today Well, and the origins are very simple, right, which is it was an anti masturbatory device Wow, and no i'm not after you can look all this stuff up I think that's all it is it's to stop pleasure. That's what it's for. Yeah, it's it's uh, simply, you know when when they couldn't Demonize human sexuality through religion.    Would that be would that be something we could do? Yeah, it's it's almost as if the way you're born is fine assuming you don't have any genetic defects, right? So just to be clear here, you both view it as conceptually related to things like spanking and childhood abuse This is an intrusion. It's almost like the same mechanisms that parents are going through in their head with us It's like all this child. It's it's even worse. It's worse It's worse. So being beaten is is bad.  It's certainly as bad But as a child it doesn't permanently alter your physiology I mean assuming that the beating is not completely psychotic, right?  Penis is half of them. I mean that that's just completely strange completely So real and it's one of these things like they look back through the tunnel of time in the future And they'll say what I'm all for you people thinking that that's good because I'm There is a can I hit that with a slightly conspiracy theory angle Anthony? Absolutely. It relates to Hey host Epstein man. There is no such thing as a conspiracy anymore that that term. It's going to be completely discredited So yes, yesterday I went through the full red man group video and I was Listening to what Stefan was saying. There's something that Stefan said that I don't think people heard Well, perhaps this is my reinterpretation correct me if I'm wrong, please Stefan Was that when you spank children? You're breaking their boundaries in such a way as that means they're more likely to be submissive to state control Did I just hear that was that you said? Yeah, I mean just very very briefly You're bigger than the child So all you're teaching the child is might makes right and then you are wonder why the child becomes a bully when the child gets older You've taught the whole lesson the biggest person willing to use the most violence gets his way So then the genital mutilation at birth of children I would say looks an awful lot like an attempt to bind people Psychologically and emotionally to the big You know the big state the big authority figure, you know you submit or else I mean originally this was the type of thing that would be done to genital mutilation was done to slaves historically before it was done to Civilized people, you know, that's sorry civilized people in there in the eyes of the people at that time They would say okay, you're a slave. You're lesser than me. This is where the genital mutilation comes in It seems to me like it could be a kind of way of binding people to state submissive mindset Stefan is there any data on how children come out as adults in terms of their political leanings with regard to spanking and abuse and things like that? Uh, that's a that's a good question. Um, I don't know. Yeah, I don't I don't have to write Yeah, so the the first thing to to recognize just in general is that the political spectrum I mean it's kind of narrow left right is kind of inhibitory But you know, nonetheless, we'll use it as sort of common colloquialism I agree that political beliefs are significantly genetic And and this so this sort of democrat republican left right labor conservative and so on these are genetic battles As furious they would be racial battles in are you referring to rk selection theory or something? Yeah, well, it's not just it's not the rk selection theory Which I've got a whole series on which people should definitely check out it called gene wars gne wars Okay, but even among sort of mainstream psychologists. There are massive predictors of political leanings based upon The genetics of twin studies you name it, right? So that's certainly something that is important to understand. I would say that spanking condition conditions children to Well, both submit to and thirst for authority, right?  And so is spanking teaches children that you're either going to get spanked or you're going to be doing the spanking And so that either makes them sort of blindly dumbly compliant and avoidant of society because it's just a Hitfest so to speak or It provokes this bonobo brain Dopamine hunting sociopathic lust for power, which is like, hey man, if there's going to be hitting in the society I'm not going to be on the receiving end. I'm going to be on the dealing end And I think that's where a lot of political ambition comes from So you're saying it basically results in codependency and counterdependency as I think richard, that's what that week called Yes Yeah, either codependency or counterdependency. I was thinking about the effect of of hitting in myself and there's codependent traits in me But then there's objects rejecting of any authority and being a you know, rebellious But in a very as an infantile defense in a very infantile way of their rebellion And I do think I would directly relate that not just to the hitting But to the atmosphere of terror in which I was raised So there was hitting and then there was interrogations And then there was insinuations and there was like religious stuff there as well All of that I think has a massive impact on how people are going to Believe politics should be played out because it is really we're just when we're arguing politics We're only really discussing how should power be used. That's it. There isn't really much else there And let me just jump in here real quick Which is to point out something that I think is underappreciated in society as a whole That the presence of biological fathers is the greatest antidote to child abuse That is known in society So studies are very very clear on this that when a non related Adult male is in the household Children are 40 times Not 40 40 times more likely to be physically and or sexually abused. Wow That's called. It's called the boyfriend abuser effect And and this is so single motherhood where you often will get a whole sort of conveyor belt of low rent trashy guys Roman through the bedroom and snarling at the children In you know, this very sort of wolf pack kind of mentality It is incredibly dangerous. It is this I think it's as far as I understand it It is the biggest single risk factor for children is having a non related Biological adult male in the household not only are children 40 times more likely to be physically or sexually abused There are 50 times 50 times More likely to be killed Wow, and so The presence of biologically related males to their children in the household Is the greatest Protector of children, which is why I say men should embrace their roles as providers and Protectors. So this is something that the fragmentation of the family the rise of single motherhood and so on This is where the snowflake generation comes from This is where the hysterical reactive trigger generation comes from first They're dumped in daycares and then often they're preyed upon Or abused by men roaming through their single moms household We've just created a whole generation of incredibly traumatized Children and the you know, it's a lot easier to break someone that it is to fix them Yeah, I was gonna say too now We're creating a multi-generational cycle of trauma that's just repeating itself and getting worse over time And obviously we're trying to break that with youtube channels and media and events and things like that But it's fucking tough stuff the nails We have a question from one of the viewers here Here it is Awesome stream guys is from brian perriera Awesome stream guys. I would love to hear your thoughts on mother versus father abuse on kids How they differ in the varying effects? We'll ignore single motherhood and single parenting for a minute and just focus on You know biologically intact family Stefan do you have thoughts on this or data? Well, the data is that women abuse children more than men do Okay, I mean so so that that's fairly uncontroversial. I mean there's been some studies where Women are are hitting their children Five ten twelve times a day and what's the uh, what's your theory on the reason for that? Is it the inability to properly like Uh, let's see parent or dominate in a non-abusive way not dominate, but um, I mean I can go to yeah I can go to so so, um Men in general have a little bit more That's funny because I don't want to say intimidation like we glower and we growl Our voices deeper and we're larger voices deeper being being larger See, I mean as you know this whole concept of neotony that women retain childlike characteristics throughout their life Right, they don't lose their hair. Uh, they're facially hairless like little boys. They have higher voices Like children. They're smaller just like children So it's harder for little kids to look at moms and differentiate them from as clearly from Children as men as adult males with deep voices and sometimes facial hair or baldness or You know physical size and all that kind of stuff And so because men kind of have an implicit authority, you know, the old wait till your father gets home kind of thing They generally don't have to escalate. I mean, I've never raised my voice at my daughter I've never called her a name. I've certainly never hit her not that my wife has either of course I'm really cute about that But we just have a kind of natural and easy authority and I think there's something else too because we don't carry the child This just speculation but because we don't carry the child in our womb Women take it much more personally when their children are different from themselves Because this carrying the child in the womb giving birth to it breastfeeding holding it for the first year or two of its life There's kind of a fusion there which is very healthy and very appropriate and serves to protect and nurture the child But when the children begin to resist the mother's Personality and identity which is a natural part of growing up and a very healthy part of growing up The women sometimes take it a little bit more personally than the men and the men are like, yeah You know disagree with me fantastic. Let's learn how to disagree productively and so on Whereas men kind of women kind of take it as a well, you're rejecting me, you know, like you're you're you're not part of me anymore You're you're against me and and I think that can Serve to escalate and then of course, you know, particularly I know we didn't Single moms or divorced moms. That's really bad. How is Just talking about the son. How on earth is the son supposed to respect the single mother? Because the single mother has two possibilities as to why dad ain't around number one He was a bad guy He was a bad guy and and okay if he was a bad guy Then the single mom when she was far older than the child made a terrible decision about the most important decision in her life Which is who you have kids with it's the most important decision you're ever going to make So how on earth is the child supposed to respect the mother who chose a bad man to be the father of her children because clearly she has It's not even bad judgment. It's like negative judgment. It's catastrophic It's the opposite of any kind So how on earth is she supposed to teach you how to live when her life is one big advertisement for everything to do That's that's wrong or or see here's the other thing other possibility He was a good man And she drove him away or she left him in which case I don't know which is worse It's kind of hard to say both of them Indicate to the child that the single mother and this could be true for single fathers too But there's such a tiny percentage we've got to deal with the majority Yeah, that she has such bad decision-making skills That it's inevitable that he's going to turn to the peer group.   No, that's a widow. That's not a thing. Yeah, I know it's a various and people people like to say Oh, she's a single mother too and she's it's not it's fundamentally different Yeah, that's a very small percentage of how mothers end up single as a way Yeah, you wouldn't want to confer you wouldn't want to confuse an accident with a suicide Like one is willed and one is not and and you wouldn't want to confuse a widow with a single mother One is willed and one is not so to be clear when you're talking about single mothers talking about how her choices Are relate we're directly related to that happening in her life or that result. Okay. Yeah So I wanted to take a step back on this too or continue on this topic actually So how does childhood abuse and spanking in these things? How does that affect uh boys and girls differently? Independent of which parent or both parents doing it? How do how do little girls and little boys respond to this over time as they develop into teenagers and adults? Obviously men and women are different. We have different, uh, we have different brains We have different responses to life. We have different behavior patterns So how does this happen or how does this uh change over time or evolve through childhood? Boys and girls spot in life coach you want to take that one? Yeah, I I think the uh the stats on this if I stay within my wheelhouse with the cluster B personality disorders are That you'll have a ptsd style response to the trauma which will be for men Narcissism for women for like personality disorder and histrionic personality disorder of which they're crossovers I think it's a it's a power thing. So these children are looking going my god I'm overwhelmed with this authoritarian tyrannical abuse. How am I going to regain some kind of power? I know I'll withdraw into an infantile defensive shame based story of who I am I'll pretend I'm infinitely beautiful or infinitely sexually desirable or infinitely powerful in other ways Whatever it is, whatever the story is Women will tend to have a story that leans in one direction men will have a story that leans in another direction So that's probably where you would you would say it manifests That's why we get higher stats for men with narcissistic personality disorder Higher stats for women with borderline personality disorder Can I get where I want to get by being direct by being aggressive or do I need to be covert? Do I need to be more manipulative work behind the scenes blur the boundaries that kind of thing? So yeah, I think we say it then Well, the other thing too and and this is related to both abuse and father absence is that Our genes aren't done when we're born, right? Our genes continue to look at the environment and attempt to adapt ourselves to the greatest or best survival strategy in the environment Now if you are in a two-parent stable household where people are reasonable that indicates to your genes that Civilization is is around you, you know, things are predictable. You you can make plans and what that does is it promotes um Sexual control control over your sexuality. It promotes the deferral of gratification and impulse control And all these kinds of good things that we kind of need for there to be a society that we can sustain On the other hand father absence tells Children boys and girls that there's probably war or famine or some sort of chaos or some sort of instability Which is I mean why why would men get killed in general in histories because there's a war now in a war You have a very different reproductive strategy Which is spray and pray, right? This is the r versus k selection which I've talked about before So if there's father absence if there's violence if there's chaos in the environment You get programmed to be all rabbit and no wolf in other words You have high aggression low impulse control Rampant promiscuity, right? I mean because our genes have not adapted to the fact that there's birth control Because that's your best survival strategy when there's random predation and chaos Then your best reproductive strategy is just try and have as many kids as possible invest into them as little As possible and just cross your fingers that one of them makes it somehow to adulthood where the cycle repeats And so we have two societies In the west we have the society of the stable middle class household where they're being programmed for civilization And then we have this sort of chaotic single mother various alex and promiscuity and and often poverty which is programming people for A very very different kind of society and this tension is really growing in society between the left and the right yeah So I want to get to some more viewer questions here One here is from dalton c. He actually gave super chat as well a few minutes ago. Thanks dalton So this question is where does the nuclear family versus community come into play? For most videos we see on tribes. They all call each other family And even breastfeed different kids and seem to be more healthy and happy So what are your thoughts to fawn and richard both on? You know community versus nuclear family in terms of parenting and abuse and things like that And they like how does it even happen? For example, like why doesn't that why doesn't a community stop and why and I feel like today obviously your local community is dying off I'm not one of the first people to talk about that But in the past they used to step in and put a stop to this or put a like push it down Hmm I'll defer to you on that. All right. All right. So I'll have a go of after you've done it Okay, so a high investment in offspring Is what drives evolution, right? So if you have tribes and I haven't heard of these tribes But you know, they say it takes a village to satisfy bilklint. Sorry to satisfy to raise a child and so If you have well, you know, I'll just breastfeed anyone and it doesn't matter about my own genes Then you're just you're not going to get any particular kind of evolution because there's no positive selection for child Investment in your own offspring. That's very rare. I mean in in nature In general particularly about mammals You know the the males don't particularly like to invest in in other males offspring because those who do their genes Are going to die out and the other genes offspring. So there's this tension, right? So I think that we should focus on our own offspring We should focus on I mean, it's again, it's a weird thing to say so like I If there's some stranger's kid in a boat that boat is sinking and I can only save one kid and there's my kid in there It's like, hey man, like I'm sorry, but you know, that's my kid in there I would expect you to do the same with your kid. That's just the way and you know The people who are secularists and atheists and people who are into evolution so on kind of deny this kind of things Oh diversity no problem It's like but but the whole point of evolution is you prefer genetic proximity to genetic distance Evolution can't work in any conceivable way without that So they're kind of pillaging a theory to get rid of god while at the same time opposing that theory to promote this rampant multiculturalism, so Yeah, I do think that local communities are important We kind of program to deal with 100 to 150 people after that ideology takes over because we can't keep that many social balls in the air Jen I I'd like to see the citation for the tribe where they're breastfeeding other people's kids I I that's that I've not heard of that Um, there is a there is a little bit of false dichotomy there where it's presented as we can either have a community Or a nuclear family where there's been more of leaning on a nuclear family. It's probably economic It's probably the way we developed consumerism materialism individualism people spend more if they're more individualistic and the community As stephan just said that's what we're evolved for we're evolved to be tribal We're evolved to know each other within a community I can see a lot of reasons for a lot of ways in which would be helpful To live in a more community based society You can take up the slack in childrearing that probably lead to less stress or probably lead to less abuse It would also expose the children to more role models different role models who are experts in different fields of life That seems to be useful but a lot of it is Freeing up the the parents the biological parents time and stress levels so they're less likely to engage in spanking which I would suspect in the real world Is more about impatience and frustration than it is about actual discipline You know teaching some moral truth. I I don't think it happens like that right after I think it's usually just Frustration I haven't got the mental or psychological resources for this. I'm going to hit you There's also the elephant in the room is what happened in the extended family We talk about the nuclear family. We talk about the local community. What happened to your grandparents uncles cousins aunts things like that I did a stream of ddj uh earlier this year or late last year not too long ago on my channel And it was the fall the extended family how this too has gotten uh, you know killed off And then in some ways it's even more important than your nuclear than your nuclear family And it might not take a village to raise a child But it does usually take it helps a lot to have uh people around you family that you can trust People are related by blood and people that show your genetic legacy or some component of it Well, I mean that's that's peak boomer right peak boomer is the the 60s generation and sort of there there on Follow your bliss man. Be a hedonist. Don't let anything interfere with your pleasure You know if you want to go get a job dump your kids in in daycare Don't really focus on the quality of the kids education and just you know Follow your own thing you want to move to get a new job and more pay just move It doesn't matter what your kids need or their circle of friends or anything like that Just focus on your own pleasure and drag everyone's misery along behind you like Dead rats tied to a kite, you know, I mean this this peak boomer stuff, right? And so the extended family, you know, my daughter grows up. She has kids and so on I'll just move to where she is. I want to spend time with my grandkids You know, I mean just just find a way to it's not even a sacrifice in my mind, you know So of course so so now the the blowback is happening to the boomers where the boomers are getting old And the kids are saying well, we don't have any real connections So I just put you in a home and the boomers are like well, that's terrible. It's like well, yeah, but You did it to me when I was six months old So I think it's fair to do it when you're 70 because you have had a whole life to show me who you are But you did for me before I was even formed So we have another question from a viewer that I think it's worth taking here and that's from Charles van Dussen Can you guys discuss how it was that the ancient philosophers thought it best to raise children? I recall an extensive dialogue between Plato Socrates basically enumerated how Greek society should should do some I know both of you are fans of Greek philosophy as far as I know So uh to both of you that's open I wouldn't claim enough expertise in Greek philosophy of child rearing to have too much intelligence to say Okay rich Yeah, no me neither because um, it's a great topic though. Really. It's it's a fantastic topic I don't know about and I've not read that. I've not read the advice given on on child rearing or anything like that from From a greek standpoint I can tell you how the Spartans did it and we can have a full insight We know that we know how to abuse kids thoroughly into murder psychopath But that's probably outside the realms of this.  So let's go So Mike what let's move on back to the monastery a little bit Stefan you have you have some familiarity with the monastery obviously You're obviously where the pickup artist community the red pill community the migtails obviously the men's rights to The monastery itself has this large loosely organized collection of men now these different groups Do you have thoughts on how the single motherhood generation? And childhood abuse and spanking How the infeminism the rise of feminism over the past you know several decades How this has affected and resulted in the formation of this large online community of men the numbers in the millions For example the pickup artist community is known for not just picking up women But at least trying to help men understand social skills dating skills sexual skills Like why did these men lack that by the millions just just to focus on them never mind the migtails who are in much higher numbers You know leaving the sexual marketplace and dating marketplace completely So how does childhood abuse and spanking and these things how does it affect young men Becoming men that are growing up at the young men and then you know being dysfunctional in these ways You know the sex it is so all this stuff well, so I think it all circulates around this central concept of the demon female Now the demon female is not that all females are demons of course I'm happily married of a wonderful daughter and so on but women's capacity for evil Which used to be very well known throughout society.  So women's capacity for evil used to be well known and balanced things in society now With rank sentimentalism and feminism coming along women were always portrayed as victims and now it's Metastasized into a genuine psychological phenomenon called women are wonderful Women are always wonderful. Women are always great. They're always thoughtful and caring and nurturing and and if anything bad happens They're always bleating victims being towered over by some a nasty neanderthal Man specimen right so so we've lost the capacity to recognize women's capacity for evil Now that is a very very bad thing in society because if women can't do any wrong Then all of the wrongs in society must accrue to men And if all the wrongs in society must accrue to men But men are not responsible for all the wrongs in society Then men are being given a sisyphean task that they can't achieve which is to rid the world of evil Or or to break the cycle of violence And so because we've lost what jung would call the shadow right our own capacity for immorality sultry needs and talked about this Of course, it's a very very important part of of modern psychological literature That if we completely deny to go back to spot and life coaches point narcissism believe that they can't ever do anything wrong So they end up doing a whole lot of wrong because they could just justify everything they do if it's impossible for me to do Wrong it's sort of like saying well, it's impossible for me to eat me to eat badly So I unearth what I need the science of nutrition And so we've lost our capacity to recognize that women are as capable of great evils of great immoralities as men are And so we've completely lopsided the conversation We provoked both guilt and helplessness in men guilt because men feel or they're told we're responsible for all the world's evils And helplessness because we're denying the the demonic female and therefore we can't Fix society any more than you know If you've got a big plank that takes two people to lift and you try and lift one end of it You can't lift it off the ground because you're missing the other half And so by demonizing men and turning women into angels We've completely broken our capacity to break the cycle of violence And this is why violence in in the family is it remains such a core Issue because once we start to understand that that women are human beings women have a wonderful side They have a dark side. They have a good side. They have an evil side. They're as tempted into as great a set of immoralities as men We can't have a productive conversation Because it's pretty narcissistic for women to just say well We're always perfect and anything that goes wrong is the man's fault And you see this in online debates all the time you can see this on my twitter feed right I point out something about women and what's the first thing you hear? Well, what about men and it's like hey, man, we've been talking about men for the last 50 years You know, okay, can we just what cassie jay said in her Interview about the red pills a great documentary people should check out She said, you know, can we can we talk about men's issues for fight? No, we cannot talk about men's issues men's vulnerabilities we can't talk about high male suicide rates We can't talk about how divorce courts destroy men. We can't talk about high high male death rates in dangerous Occupations we can't talk about male depression or anxiety. We can't talk about any of that because Women are wonderful and anything bad that happens to men is all men's fault And it's a pathological place to to pretend to have a discussion Yeah, and I've seen this, you know in real life countless times when I wear my hat, you know make women great again When people actually realize it's not a maga hat. It's a make women great again hat They're just a lot of them are shocked especially women Yeah, our women are already great. What's why are they not great? I'm like, yeah, I have criticisms Like are you okay with that and they can't deal with it? Uh, you know, even if I don't say anything to stare at them.  It's so sexist to say Men can handle being foundationally criticized for well over half a century But you point out that lipstick is sexually manipulative on the part of women and everybody loses their minds Yeah, it's it's it's extremely narcissistic to have that split between angels and demons men infinitely evil Men women are infinitely good. They're blameless. You must never say anything about them And I'd never thought about it that way before but actually what we've done societally is is is engaged in splitting So we're going everything that is bad project that into men everything that is good preserve that in women Of course, you're going to end up with men completely frustrated completely lost As Stefan just said this the double binders men are told eradicate evil in the world And then we say to men do you want to know where the evil is then you make you're the problem So then what do they do? They're depressed. They're frustrated. They're anxious. They have no place They can't move forward because they're stuck in this double bind.  They're screamed at that.  Yeah Well, here's here's the thing too I mean when you say That women are wonderful the great female weakness is vanity, right great The great male weakness is status and aggression right status and aggression is is the great male weaknesses But not to say that the status is bad or aggression is always bad and so on But that's where we have our greatest susceptibility. That's why we can be goaded into this heroic war fighting for for useless ends but women's great weakness is vanity And so when men get pumped up for status and aggression We really have to be careful of that because that's how we can be manipulated by the elites, right?  We're not bad.  This almost never seems to happen And so we have to remind women listen you have a weakness and that weakness is called vanity And it's used to control you and by putting all of the ills on men And all of the virtues on women the elites the media the you name it They are robbing you of your capacity for love And connection and commitment and succor and comfort and companionship in your old age So you can be pumped full of vanity And you can be told that you're wonderful And everything that's twigs and berries is the root of all evil. There's no eve.  You know the old thing in in a in a in a infidelity situation, you know if the man is unfaithful It's because he's a bad man And if the woman is unfaithful, it's because the man wasn't fulfilling her emotional needs and he's a great man We all know this so women can get all of this vanity and they could be controlled and manipulated through their vanity And they lose the greatest treasures in life. So what do they get a box of cats that is going to eat them after they die The kingdom of cats I actually saw study to about a year ago, and I I think it's still you know research or a topic that continues Alcoholism is skyrocketing for women in the 50s, which she knows no surprise I'm probably going to see that dip in a woman in their 40s along with psychiatric medications too And they call it wine aunts, right that especially the powerless women You know, hey, wait, wait a minute. My my peak sexual market value doesn't Doesn't survive menopause.  They're fed at that for life and There's no safety now afterwards. They're just abandoned to it. They're like, well, I thought I thought it was infinitely Good infinitely beautiful and perfect. What where have I gone wrong? It's like, no, you didn't go wrong You were lied to your whole life and resting that ideology from women Well, yeah, they went wrong by accepting the lie like there is some responsibility there. They were lied to and they're not responsible for that I'm 31 years old. I'm not responsible for the existence of feminism But I am responsible in my youth for accepting these kind of lies that I was told by society and things like that And it's hard to see through that especially when you're young and you've been You know, if you don't have like a strong family culture around you positive parents healthy parenting and stuff Yeah, that's it's really it's in the culture as a whole But the other thing too, of course is that the pickup artistry community is kind of a feminist factory as well Right because the pickup artist community by pursuing the pump and dump mechanism is just creating a lot of bitter women Who hate men and then they're just creating this open wound through which the virus of feminism can infect The female nature. So I don't like the pump and dump stuff. You know, I have a daughter Don't don't do it to my daughter, man. I'll find you.  He's you know, he's got a he's got a wife. He's he's got a kid on the way You know provision and protection is not just about dropping your load in random holes in the world You know that that's that's not healthy and that's not good for men and it's really really bad for women Yeah, before we move on there's a couple of viewer questions, including a super chat I want to get to rich. You've been talking with me and observing the manisphere for a while now And you first about recently at the 21 convention The manisphere summit of the world right in poland So what are your thoughts on childhood abuse and the resulting, you know, cptsd and trauma and things like that Resulting in the formation of the manisphere over the past say 20 years since the late 90s Do you think there's a connection there and what have you seen? By observing me and the speakers and what we do Our relation to what you do you want me to talk about your psychological profiling thing? Let's let's let's open pandora's box They get born in four of my notes rich rich granted has been super helpful in a personal level to me in my life Coming out of my the relationship that or the marriage I had years ago As well as like whole childhood of like extreme domestic violence and all kinds of crazy shit He's one of the best guys I've ever found for that And I'm sorry for that. I'm Anthony. I just I feel for your brother.  I'm really really sorry about that Thanks on the positive side. I've built this entire company in response to it. So there you go I wouldn't be as good a parent if I didn't have as bad a mom That's just the weird thing that happens in life. It's like that. Isn't that? I mean, I wouldn't I wouldn't bother doing what I do if I hadn't felt that kind of pain and suffering and the You know feeling entrapped and imprisoned in In childhood Yeah, most most people like they have a fork like this, right? It's like and it ends up like this is good and evil, right? So most people if they don't have a lot of trauma when they're kids they have a fork like this And it's kind of easy to miss the the turnoff, right? It's kind of easy to oh Well, you know, I can still see this side from this side and eventually you but we have forks like like this Right, it's like this way or this way. There's no thing We're gonna be you get you get horns or feathered wings. There's there's nothing if the angel or devil That's your only choice, man. It's like, okay. Well, that sucks But it's not that complicated a choice to make whereas this kind of goofy stuff where you chisel away stuff You know, it's the boiling frog thing, you know So I don't know it's kind of like I don't want the abuse But I kind of want to give people that fork in the road stuff before it's too late It's very unambitious very You're given a great opportunity and it can go really positive or really bad I like the way you put it last time stiff on in the red man group You said uh people go through really rough childhoods You come out gods or devils and I never heard that before thought that was really good But rich to give you a little more direction and juice to the question too And the man in the manus for I've seen I've been a part of it for 13 years now Literally in my entire adult life since I was 17 years old still a teenager I've been involved with it almost every day on a personal level as well as a business level What I've seen over the years whether it's the pick up artist community or the red poke community The two that I'm most familiar with of the four major groups Any discussion of like childhood abuse and parenting and these kinds of things It gets immediately disregarded and disrespected.  It's not a big deal get over it. It was in the past all these things The knee jerk response is really strong to it basically regardless of what the focus of that particular sub community is Yeah, so I was just I just kind of want to hear you speak about like what your thoughts are in relation to the man's There's a line I think from the last Christopher Nolan Batman movie where somebody's trying to take out Bruce Wayne And they they say to him so you're trying to take out a guy who's a multi-millionaire martial arts expert vigilante who beats people up for living really other guys. Actually, yeah, that's not such a good idea So I'm aware within this community that there are serious elements like psychopathic elements potentially violent elements So I will moderate my risk. I have a lot to say But I genuinely Genuinely being concerned like I'm like, okay. I better be careful with this. So what I've seen is sliding off the scale from borderline personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder to full-blown Psychopathy, that's the part of the community that that concerns me. So you asked how does it relate to childhood trauma? I've seen evidence of guys in the community who clearly have antisocial personality disorder They're only within the community to express childhood trauma create chaos and stop other people from recovering Now the red pill community in the manifest doesn't exist to use words like recovery and healing But it does you know, they are that's what they need Essentially, that's what a lot of it should be is about recovery from pain recovery from trauma and healing from abuse There's nobody there who hasn't been Really badly hurt at some point in their lives. I can see it even with your speakers. They're excellent at this They're excellent at that They're exceeding there are elite levels for you name it all kinds of weird and wonderful things You don't do that unless you're highly motivated and that's usually from pain and childhood Yeah, I can say in particular the red the red pill community more than the others It's a result of men men find it as a result of toxic relationships Specifically the cluster b things like that which is eventually how I found it I gave a speech on my experience with that on youtube and stuff now And one of the audience members actually saw live wanted me to find this community immediately In response to the ideas I was kind of tackling and and chewing on at the time and I have found it really useful But at the same time I know it is every community is going to have people cluster cluster b Personality disorders, but yeah, man is fear ones in particular the red pill. I think that's a higher percentage of that so We can get to some questions here from the audience again. There was a super chat I wanted to hit What did that go? So whilst you're looking for a question the thing I wanted to add to that is the The resentment towards women as just an idea of Women is what that is an elephant in the room. We're not allowed to talk about rich. What are you talking about? That doesn't exist, dude Right, you're not. Yeah, exactly And that that's where the ideology started to frighten me a little bit because it felt At times at the red pill end of the swimming pool stylistic There are certain words that aren't used. You'll be denounced. You'll be accused of failing purity tests Of being A heretic against the orthodoxy then you're due to be burned at the stake and it's like wow guys Aren't we men together, you know, like brotherhood and help each other out here have a sense of humor, you know Be cheerful. I didn't get that vibe from them at all. Yeah, I mean, this is one of the big chat This is um, I think it's warren warren feral statement. So he's got many great statements and one of them is a woman's strength is her pretense of weakness Women's strength is her pretense of weakness a man's weakness is his pretense of strength Oh, that's good, right? You can ponder that for a week and it's a very very powerful statement that he makes and It's hard for a man to say I've really been harmed by women Right and and there's reasons for that sort of historical and and all of that But it's first of all, it's not women in particular. It's women plus the state, right?  I'm in a nagged free of marriage and all that but it happens But you unite women's romantic power with their voting power And that is the big problem and this is why I focus on reducing state power We won't know what female nature is In a state of freedom until we can decouple femininity from the power of the state And the only way to do that is to reduce the size and power of the state because women Their negative behavior the tendency towards abuse or or nagging and so on was limited By the fact that if they got divorced in the past, well oftentimes they didn't get much right if anything And so women had to choose well And they had to provide value in a marriage and so did men get please understand me I'm just not one sided thing, right?  You get the resources anyway and women don't have to provide much value to society other than voting once every couple of years In order to get the precious resources out of the man's wallet at the point of a gun held by the state And specifically you mean both like welfare queens like single mothers who are you know Deliberately abusing the system getting as much stuff as they can As well as things like divorce court that are a little bit separated from voting But are still systemically biased against men and fathers And employment and government employment and if you look at government workers, you know in particular sectors It looks like your average hr department, right? I mean I worked briefly at the Department of Education in Canada in the canadian city And they were like two guys And it was like a sort of a taxpayer teat sucking coven as far as the eye could see and and so this this whole cropping up our female income through Through laws that forbid any kind of differentiation between males and females despite the fact that Women go off and have kids and sometimes don't come back and women don't work as many hours and don't have as much Just tests drawn and all these kinds of things which make women wonderful But not always as productive as men in the economic sphere So you've got all of these government laws propping up female income which draw and the purpose of that is obviously five votes But it's also to draw women out of the household Into the workforce so that the children can be separated from the parents and programmed by the state I mean this is just population control 101 separate children from the parents And have them thrown into state institutions where they can be subject to propaganda and drag queen dances I mean this is this is basic and of course the other thing too drawing women into the workforce with artificially high wages Also drives down wages from it because you know when women all swarmed into the workforce all they did was you know supply and demand They depressed wages for men And of course they were a tax base that hugely profited the state right stay at home moms don't pay taxes But if a woman goes to work then she consumes more she pays taxes while she's at work and also You have to pay taxes or or income to pay for the people who are taking care of the children who aren't the parents And so it's a huge clusterfract that benefits the elite and again feeds into the vanity of women And then is there some Battlestar galactic of terminology here? Yeah, I I have imbibed both theories although I didn't finish the second but uh Yeah, so so this this kind of stuff is really really important. We we're not looking at female nature In the current system.  They're just responding like we all do most of us do to particular incentives So thinking that female nature is somehow defined by the current incredibly corrupt System is uh unjust and unfair again. It's like calling Cuban factory workers lazy because they don't seem to want to you know do overtime It's not the case the system is wrong Stefan have a specific question Is it your opinion that uh welfare for single mothers and children and things like this? Is it harmful to children and that it enables uh single mothers to and women everywhere everywhere to make bad decisions and to You know disregard consequences for those decisions or basically offsets them is how I see it Well, we with regards to the welfare state We can certainly argue consequences But the problem of consequences is you can always find someone who's benefiting from it and reasonably so right so The question with the welfare state again goes right back to the beginning of her conversation Anthony Which is the non-aggression principle how is the welfare state funded?  It's like thou shalt not steal Cool. Let's get to some of the of your questions. This was a ten dollar super chat from Darius Thurman How should a young man who was abandoned by his father and has developed a void and attachment style cure his transient sense of self-worth And constant need for validation. How does he become secure? Well, first of all, you'd recognize that it's not that you were abandoned by your father That again that we earlier all the problems are defined as male problems, right? You were not abandoned by your father. That certainly happened, but you're missing Excuse me.  Listen, we don't need any more pressure to look at bad actions of man We've had that hammered into us like nails into a palm for the past 50 60 years So we don't need more characterizations of Bad men, you know, if you have a seesaw and there's like 50 pounds of rocks or 50 tons of rocks on one side You've got to stop putting some rocks on the other side people say well, what about this side? It's like well, this side already has 50 tons of rocks on it. We got to put some on the other side to balance it out So I am for maximum female responsibility at the moment maximum female responsibility. Look, we all know how the game works Men ask women out and women get to choose from any number of waving penises that are floating around She can grab, you know, it's like somebody in the titanic and they've got like 600 pieces of wood around them If they drown, it's their own fault. They get out, right? And so women have like it's this weird madam two swords world, right?  Absolutely. Is he responsible for that? He sure is But who's the most responsible? Your mom for choosing a guy Who abandoned you?  You're going to internalize that and you can feel like crack And don't do it man focus on female responsibility. Hey, they wanted equality I'm giving it to them. Yeah, what it sounds like to me is you're telling him to focus on what's being hidden from him in the world right now Yeah, he knows he father abandoned him. What he's missing is the female Engineering of that situation. I haven't mean to socially and culturally like we're told to just completely ignore and avoid at all costs Any discussion of female responsibility? Like calling a woman a deadbeat mother is just like heinous right now Whereas deadbeat fathers you see literally on billboards in america and stuff like that Well, you know war is characterized as a male endeavor, but female rulers throughout history have started more wars For capita than men ever had So again one of these says and that women are part of the cycle of violence and they're foundational to the cycle of violence Because women raise children. You got single moms. You got dance working You've got primary school teachers the vast majority of them are women most Boys who don't have a father in the house don't meet a male authority figure till they're in junior high or high school You know, so now we're talking the women control The environment of the children for at least the first 10 years of most children's lives And then women say well the world is terrible You know, it's it's a bizarre I mean if i'm the farmer do I get to blame my crops for not growing rights?  Okay fine. I don't agree with it But you've got it and stop complaining about the world that you made If I carve a statue and I say well this statue is incomprehensibly ugly. I don't know what happened People would look at me like I was insane So women It's like you're it's like they're gas lighting themselves. There's gas lighting rich. Do you have any do you have any thoughts on this rich? Yeah, I I think given given the context of when this conversation has taken place like There are psychological solutions to this but also from a philosophical point of view To see things clearly to see the truth as it is and to accept it all as Stefan and Anthony just said you've got to look at what is not there So you frame the question in a certain way and there's things missing from the terrain Once you've seen the terrain fully you've got a much better chance of having a full recovery You want to secure? attachedly attached securely safely sorry to A partner we all want that for you every man sat here is like great mate. Please do that You're only going to be able to do that once you've recovered from the pain that you're already Experiencing because you're going to end up projecting and it's going to skew your perspectives So actually seeing the situation as it is is going to help having a good Philosophical stance on this being able to think critically critique your own thoughts critique your own thinking your own decision making your selection process of women Is going to be very very important in the years ahead last thing I wanted to mention sorry for jumping in again, but People men say they don't trust women and that's not the accurate statement The accurate statement is you don't trust your judgment of women There are good women out there and there are bad women out there if you can differentiate between the two Then you can trust women It's it's not because if you can't trust women because you don't know how to differentiate a good woman from a bad woman Then you're going to say well women are untrustworthy. It's like no no no It's your judgment that is untrustworthy and I said this to women said I don't trust men It's like no you don't trust your judgment of men Because if women or men are just bad then you're helpless again You're helpless and powerless and you can't get love You can't have a family and you can't maintain civilization and you can't give the gift of life that was bestowed upon you by the universe It's terrible If you learn how to differentiate a good woman from a bad woman a good man from a bad man, then you can trust Not a gender in abstract but specific individuals and their own moral qualities And then you get the aforementioned love and family and continuation of the four billion year journey of life itself That said I want to move on to my some my original questions here from before the show So how does childhood abuse affect long-term pair long-term pair bonding and mate selection specifically in men? Let's focus on men Manusphere or not like how do men who are abused and grow up in these kind of really traumatic environments How do they end up choosing mates and things like this? How does pair bonding effect? We just talked about attachment disorder and things like that But any further thoughts on that SLC go sounds like you're a lingo lane It is my That's a big topic. So you would end up With a propensity towards a certain because it's a highly traumatic environment child of abuse as you facing being beaten or Questioned by or shouted out by these huge gods and goddesses They're so much taller than you it has a massive impact on the central nervous system Like npds npds end up with bpds a lot of the time right and I'm sticking They do a hundred percent because more I think more so see we talk about it in the narcissistic abuse community As though there's you know codependence with narcissistic people and actually cost the bees end up together with each other Because it's repetition compulsion. They're the victims of childhood abuse.  Some days. They'll be the prey that tends to be the thick end of the wedge You respond in a primary biological way. You will either tend towards fighting Fawning freezing or flighting running away. That's how it's going to manifest in your in your adult But yeah, if you think that abuse is somehow endemic to the human condition, you'll end up repeating it Right. I mean if you think that a woman has to be a mammal, you're going to end up dating mammals I mean just by definition, right? So what you have to do is you have to Denormalize the abuse that you suffered But that's a hard thing to do because then you have to say my parents did some pretty evil stuff And and that's hard, you know, we're we're wired to bond with our parents We want, you know, you you in history if your parents didn't like you they'd leave you on a Freakin iceberg or something or just wouldn't give you enough food or just abandon you in the forest So we bond with our parents so that the challenge of denormalizing abuse means that we have to run Right up against the most primal guards of our entire existence Which is our parents when we're young and we have to say, you know what my mom my dad They did some really evil stuff. They may not be irredeembly evil. Maybe I can talk to them I hope that you people can talk to their parents about this kind of stuff and achieve some kind of resolution But you have to call a spade a spade you have to call immorality immorality You have to clearly separate it from morality that gives you choice about who you date in the future You know, if everyone's abusive and your parents are just doing the best they could with the knowledge They had and they had the best of intentions and so on you can't ever find a good person because you've just defined them out of existence Any more than you can say well, I'm only going to date women with three heads. Okay We'll just be a monk, right? So if all people are corrupt if female nature is evil if men are just predators and rape Then you've just defined your capacity to find a good partner right out of existence So you have to go through that Valley of the shadow of death of ascribing moral responsibility to your parents Who may have done some really really bad stuff What you're just going through that process then you can open up the possibility of finding someone better Yeah, what you're just saying like the shadow of the valley of death and all that it reminds me of like a grieving process Yeah, when some traumatic event happens It's almost like men and even women too and the you know, they come out of these Childhoods they're stuck in a grieving process. They make rationalizations and excuses for their parents and see how they did the best They could yet be okay without all this bullshit And sometimes you do and sometimes you don't and so sometimes you don't people get really upset with because there's blood ties Well, you know, you know, you know, you learn a lot about society If you criticize your parents in a foundational moral fashion, which is necessary for progress You find out a lot of ugly stuff about society and its collusion with parents in child abuse Because why do parents abuse children? Because they can get away with it And why can they get away with it because they know They know but damn well certain that society when you grow up is going to rush to their defense and abuse and ostracize you For questioning the ethics of your parents They rely upon this massive groundswell of support and enablement for child abusers And that you are going to be the one attacked for pointing out that your parents were abusive if they were abusive Yeah, and as long as we continue to enable that all we're doing is subsidizing evil And then we sub whatever you subsidize you just you get more on Yep Richard get something Yeah, just that like what Stefan's just said, I think um Is a very very nuanced point not everybody's going to get it the first time around They're going to have to go back and listen to it again You're talking about here.   He did the best he could I don't like if you hold that you're going to drown Well, you know blub blub blub blub because I'm not letting go of it. It's really important Why do people hold on to it though?  He wasn't a very nice guy. They lose him I'm taking daddy away.  I don't want to downplay that But it's also like you don't want to reveal The natures of the people around you who are going to rush to the defense of someone who abused you And escalate the abuse against you for bringing up such a taboo topic You don't want to turn the light on and see where you're actually living It's much better to live in dream world for a lot of people at least in the short run Nice I have a questionnaire that I think will be a lot of fun A lot of fun for us in a way to discuss and that's a fun to be to grow up around So we're talking about spanking. We've been talking about circumcision. Obviously, you know domestic violence any kind of childhood abuse and stuff That's physical But what about nonviolent abuse things like emotional neglect and other forms of Say, let's call it passive abuse for lack of a better term right now I'm coming up with how serious is non How serious is non-peaceful parenting so spanking and things like that compared to Less obvious forms of abuse that some people Especially they didn't grow up around it would not even regard as abuse.  But when my daughter like she's older now But when she was you know, many way to go what's she gonna do? Uber up to some other place and you know hang out with uh with Drake. I mean come on. It's not gonna happen.  It's just inevitable consequence, right? So if you are ignored by your parents and and you're trapped with your parents, which we all are when we're very little in particular That's really harmful. It's really harmful. It's the difference between if you teach a child Curse words versus don't teach them any language at all You know the second is worse because then you grow up feeling like an alien in your own Country and the other thing too is that if parents neglect their children It's not like their children's needs for companionship suddenly vanish It's just that they become incredibly vulnerable to other people mostly predators who will Satisfy their emotional hunger for connection usually an enormously great cost to themselves It lends them to be susceptible to bullying bullying occurs against children who do not have a strong bond with parents even a negative one And it of course lets them be far more easily groomed by predators Jesus rich, do you have any thoughts on On this, you know, how does it affect the brain? How does it affect your psychology as you develop to be neglected and not even maybe not even loved by your own parents? I'll give you a very straight answer to that, which is unusual for me Um, so if you have two gulags and a gulag number one We beat you every day.   We whip you and we beat you and say antony. We love you But you have perverted thoughts in your mind and brother we need to draw them out We need to reeducate you need to wash your heart and make it clean again You'll become a forenign codependent At least in one scenario Stefan just as you couldn't say these guys abused me I know that they did I have the scar I can say I'm me They're then they did a thing to me at least you could say well, thank you for that in in scenario number two You'll never know you'll never be sure. Maybe some type of training is just extra hard Dude, maybe tough love is a thing that you I don't know Maybe you did have perverted thoughts in your mind. There's a much more insidious boundary breaking way Of torturing somebody and you know which political regimes favored which methodology And you know which one was called the fatherland and which one was called the motherland And the reason for that is probably that there's multiple layers of abuse going on or multiple layers of thinking to deal with it As it comes to my mom you're talking about it Or yeah, the physical scars are obvious some b year over the head or you know, broke your face You know it it's the most messed up kid. I'm sorry. Just thinking of the movie the breakfast club I'm sure you've seen it. I should write and I guess it's now considered to be a classic because I'm old but In the movie That the most messed up kid was the one Whose parents dropped her off and she turned to wave goodbye to them and they just drove off No no contact no connection. They would just they just you know It could drop her off like a sack of groceries or potatoes or a mail And and then just move on.  He created you essentially Exactly. You must be seen. It's better to be in pain than to be nothing It's better to be in pain than to be nothing. That's the pain is is still part of existence. Nothingness is death in life Dem So staphon, I wanted to ask you this at the beginning, but we'll get to it now What is the goal promoting uh peaceful parenting Other than some of the obvious benefits of children not being abused Is the goal to affect the entire culture and influence it in this direction? Is it to get 80 of it? Is it Just to promote it in general and just get as many as you can like what is kind of the long range say 30 your goal this Well, um The long-term goal is a free society and a free society is a state of society That's a big topic. So I don't expect that you everyone can recoil as much as they want I completely understand it I did when I first thought of it and was exposed to the ideas But in the long run governments initiate the use of force the initiation of use of force is evil And therefore we need to have a state of society in the same way that we have a slave free society and so on right Now, how do you how do you get there? Well, when children are traumatized They end up being dependent on the state quite a bit Right because they make bad decisions because they don't take care of their health Child abuse takes an average of 20 years off people's lifespan Child abuse contributes to the growth of cancer. It can throw contributes to um drug abuse promiscuity nicotine addiction alcoholism ischemic heart disease you name it And I've got a whole series called the bomb in the brain going into the science and the data and an interview with the guy who ran the biggest study on this dr. Vincent Feliti and If people are traumatized They don't end up usually independent. They repeat cycles of violence and they need a lot of health care They need a lot of welfare. They need a lot of propping up So if we can grow a stronger and more healthy and more independent and more reasonable society Not least of which why why do people run to the state because they're afraid of criminals? Well, where do criminals come from criminals come from child abuse? Almost exclusively there. There are boys who have a particular gene and if those boys are physically abused 100% of them become criminals 100% of them become criminals If they are physically abused so Criminality and I'm not just talking about the obvious guy in the alley with a knife But you know all the way up to to politicians central bankers you name it right this kind of predation Comes from child abuse. So if we can reduce the prevalence of child abuse We end up with independent people who can negotiate. We end up a fewer criminals and at some point we'll look at the state Like a rocket looks at the base when it's out of fuel like we don't need this anymore. It's time to jettison So what I hear from all this is that foundationally A peaceful parenting is extremely important to living in a free and rational society The only way we can get there man. It's the only way we can get there. Okay Rich you have some questions for staphon. You wanted to hit Definitely do. Um watching the red man group Discussion again yesterday. There was a point where you were chatting to uh, steve steve the dean um, and There was an issue where you said He brought up spare the rod and spoiled the child and you said that's actually not Doesn't mean hit them with a rod Can you expand on that because it kind of got moved passed very quickly and it felt like what you were saying There was a lot to be said like you weren't soft You weren't for softballing children You weren't like what he was saying what steve the dean was saying was well then you end up with kids with no boundaries And I didn't get from what you were saying that they would end up with no boundaries What what would it mean to you to enforce the rod in that situation? so boundaries a very very interesting point And boundaries Only exist when there are two people in the room When you're beating someone you're erasing them When you use violence against someone It's a hundred percent you and zero percent them you are erasing their existence in the equation because you're not negotiating with them They're running. They're cowering. They're hiding. They're curled up in a ball. They're crying. They desperately don't want to be there There are no boundaries in violence. I mean when you think about a knife going into someone's body, that's foundational to a boundary violation, which is a physical skin boundary violation The only way that there is boundaries the only way that you can have boundaries is when you're negotiating When two people are bringing their needs and trying to find a win-win situation to a particular conflict So when you're hitting a child you're not teaching the child boundaries You're teaching the child that the child does not exist in the face of superior power That's not boundaries. That's a complete erasure of another personality Which is really what violence is supposed to do and and have also neglect sort of by the by So we are and I think this was more my generation. I was born in 66 I think this is more my generation than most of the generations that came before We were incredibly untutored by our parents and untutored by society And all of these basic facts about men and women and monogamy and sex and and responsibility and mature None of that existed in my upbringing. The church had been abandoned Sexual education was simply about don't get pregnant and crabs can out Outlast you in the bathtub. There was nothing particularly and so we we were kind of Abandoned to our animalistic natures, which is where you know promiscuity and a lot of hedonism and so on We were taken from human to monkey in in like one generation So spare the rod spoil the child means the rod is the rod of instruction. It's it's of wisdom It's of passing down the accumulated knowledge painfully extracted from millions of years of evolution You know 150,000 years of humanity existing massive amounts of trial and error We've gotten some pretty basic and important principles, you know, volunteerism is better than violence pair bonding Is better than single parenting a massive income transfers are incredibly destructive to society It ran their run by the state like freedom is important freedom of speech is important The right to own arms is important like we've kind of extracted Horrible blood-soaked lessons from history and then like one post-war generation that all evaporated that all vanished It was the great undoing of the west and we were abandoned to our mirror base mammalian animal fight sex food Lust distraction just we would reduce to the animal in one generation. It all just evaporated now the rod You know, if you think of a shepherd was a shepherd do well He uses the rod he goes ahead and the sheep follow him Why because not because he beats doesn't beat them with the rod like I've never seen that I've spent some time on farms. You don't see the shepherd out Hammering away on his sheep with the rod. He's not hitting them. He's leading them somewhere And the rod is the rod of instruction of wisdom of knowledge Now the funny thing is we lost that for like two generations But now because of the internet Man is coming back It's coming back. We now have elders. We now mean you guys get called internet dad I'm I do all the time too. Like we now have the capacity To refill the cup of wisdom and pass it down to the next generation because of the internet It wasn't going to happen in the home single moms can't teach you anything Single dads usually kind of teach you anything other than don't do what I did which is, you know Okay, great. There's a couple of things I shouldn't do doesn't help me with all the things I should do Like don't go to hawaii. Okay. Well, I don't know where I'm supposed to go other than not to hawaii, right? So now we have this resurrection like this coming back to life Of the great golem of wisdom of history And so all the people who wanted to scrub knowledge out of the Intergenerational transfer of wisdom they don't like the internet why all this censorship is happening because we're resurrecting and retransmitting essential truths about the world about society And we are way out competing the propagandist Which is why stuff like this does better than most mainstream media shows Which is why I have over 600 million views and downloads because we're resurrecting We're like shocking back to life The golem of wisdom that used to instruct the young and all the people who need us dumb and easily controllable Well, they they don't like it too much lovely, lovely, I mean he's particularly I only met Steve Warsaw in Warsaw recently I love the guy and he he seemed to be relating it to criminality and the idea that without that they kids would Grow up criminals, but you're talking about quite a rigorous system of instruction of wisdom with boundaries where you know This is not some airy fairy like oh just let them do whatever they want, right? Oh gosh. No, listen. Look all kids experiment with lying my daughter was no You you did I did everyone does the experiment with lying, right? So I catch my daughter in a lie like what am I going to do yell at her? No It's very easy. I just say oh, is that what we're doing now? We don't have to tell the truth in the family anymore So I can make a commitment to you to take you to a playground But take you to Chuck E cheese or whatever it is and then I can just Not follow through in it. Is that like is that what we're doing? She's like no, no, no, I don't want that It's like Yeah, okay, that's so it's it's really not that complicated. All you do is universalize what the children do Right and and and they don't they don't want it to be universalized and I'm like, yeah, okay Well, so let's not do that then and she's like, okay, you know, and so it's it's not it's not hugely complicated, right? I mean, uh, you know not that she ever has but if she ever I don't know took five bucks from me Well, she's got she's got she's saved some money from her allowance. I'm like, oh Okay, we can just take from each other now. Is that that's the plan? Okay, because you know there's times when I need money and I know you've got money in the house So no, no, no, I don't want that. You know, it's it's really not it's not that complicated And you don't need to be a bully about it. You just need to say, okay It this is a Kantian rule, right? This is the categorical imperative act as if your action created a general rule that everyone had to follow And I mean, I have my own theory of ethics called upb, which is I think better, but this is a pretty good one for kids Oh, we can lie to each other now. We can just steal from each other now. Whoo. You know, I'm I'm okay great I didn't think we had to and I don't want that right. It's a great way to teach empathy and just basic ethics Thank you. Thank you Richard, do you have additional questions for staphon? Uh, that was that was the big one because I you know, I worked in the education system in the uk for about five years And not only was that not present. I saw people actively trying to erode them So if you actually offered the kids guidance leadership Any sort of a sense of wisdom they really hated it. They actually actively fought against me trying to trying to do that Jesus we have another viewer questionnaire that before we wind down This one is from chas Staphon this one's probably for you. Is there an IQ component to peaceful parenting or low IQ parents capable of it? Will low IQ kids respond to it? Yeah, of course the low IQ parents are capable of it. I mean what I just talked about Is something that just about everyone can do now. Okay. I mean if starting talking about 70 IQ Maybe you've got some challenges, but you know, that's not the vast majority of people in the west so You you need to make philosophical principles user-friendly Which means they can't be overly complicated.  They're just throwing sand in everyone's eyes They're peeing in the swimming pool of wisdom that we all have to swim in it from time to time So you just got to make things comprehensible, right? So I have this Wild ability to take very complex abstractions and translate them into actionable items I'm like, I'm a boiled-down kind of guy. Think of all the engineering That goes into yourself Now when I first started programming computers when I started first started working with computers, you got like a black screen And a flashing cursor and that was your like now you've got icons and you go buy You know buy things and you sit up email with one click and also so you've made the technology user-friendly to the point You know, it takes an iq of 140 to design and build a cell phone But you can use one with an iq of 80 because they've made it user-friendly And that's my purpose with philosophy and this is why the academic philosophers really don't like me so much Because you know i'm actually doing what they claim to do that's back to socrates versus this office, right? So just make things comprehensible make things Easy for people to understand. That's really the goal of those of us who have wisdom The most important thing to do is to make it as user-friendly as humanly possible Socrates never used the word epistemology. He never used the word metaphysics Right and it gets nothing wrong with those terms. They're fine for technical discussions and so on But you know, I wrote a book called the out of the argument and some people were crabbing at me It's like well, you didn't have the proper distinction in this particular case Possibly between valid and sound and blah blah blah. It's like dudes It's called the art of the argument You know, it's supposed to be user-friendly to help people win arguments to save the world Not hair split over logical terms that logicians have had 2,000 years to instruct the general public on but have failed to Do so so just make things user-friendly make things actionable and that's why Economics is fascinating, but we can't do much to change it When it comes to violations of the non-aggression principle, the most prevalent by far Is child abuse and by that I include spanking that we can do something about that's where philosophy Can actually gain traction and change things for the better in your actual life As opposed to being an abstract discipline that distracts you from things that you might do I want to change what people put into their bodies not their abstract definitions of carbohydrates Got it Closing thoughts guys to round this down or close down the interview today What are your thoughts on young adults who survived a violent? Visa childhood male or female? What can they do best to recover from that to heal and to grow? Aside from studying the issues and understanding them intellectually and things like that You know just watching videos like what can they specifically? What is most important for them to focus on to do an action to heal and this is open to both of you I would I would suggest that They've got to deal with some of the biological effects You've got to get into some sort of a tactic that allows you to reregulate the emotional system If you're extremely emotionally dysregulated your perceptions are faulty your decisions will be bad You will create bad states in yourself and in other people and people make even worse decisions when they're in a bad state So that will be part of it and They should develop some kind of a philosophical perspective that allows them to live a life Because they if it's intense childhood abuse all of that will have been smashed apart Developing some kind of moral philosophy allows you to construct internal boundaries. And that's where a lot of problems lie. I think I would say that wisdom Moral wisdom in particular It's really important to think of it sort of like the antibody system In your in your body now the antibody system can go bad in one of two ways either a it attacks healthy tissue Which is bad or b it fails to attack destructive cells like cancer, right And and so if you look at the fact that you were attacked by A foreign entity called evil as a child if you suffered this kind of abuse for which I have enormous enormous bottomless empathy So the question is given that you were attacked, but you weren't allowed to fight back. I think that Your self protective mechanisms get disrupted in the same way that Your antibody system can get disrupted in in In your body So either you end up attacking Healthy tissue so to speak so you end up getting mad at healthy people and you can see this all the time You know, I'm out there on twitter people should follow my twitter feed. I think it's really great You would also mean like so self sabotage in this case too, right? Well, so we'll get to that so You can end up attacking healthy people So I bring up provocative topics and people get all kinds of mad at me It's like no, no, these are facts. These are reasons these are arguments people get mad at me This is an example of their antibodies attacking Something that's healthy, which you don't want your antibodies to do you can get you killed, right? Now the other thing, of course, and I just saw this There was a something that came out of time magazine this morning I didn't read the whole article because I just saw it before this but Robert Mugabe multi-decade brutal murdered tens of thousands of people dictator of Zimbabwe died, I think just today, right? and Time magazine referred to him as controversial Controversy there's controversy, you know, hey, believe it or not. There's controversy about hitler, but nobody calls hitler just So this I mean this guy destroys Zimbabwe half-starved his population produced A life expectancy from one of the highest in Africa to the lowest actual in the world in the 30s A brutal dictator who tortured and imprisoned and slaughtered tens of thousands of opponents and so on so he's just controversial Now look up what the mainstream media says about me They refer to me in far more negative terms than a multi-decade brutal murderous dictator Yes, I have been amazed at what bringing you on as a speaker has done to the 21 convention. I knew it would be a big deal But it's been like huge. Yeah, I know I get all of that right and and so that's an example of Not only attacking healthy tissues me but failing to attack Cancers like Robert Mugabe. Yeah, all right. So so How do you fix this problem where you're it, you know hatred of the good for being the good, right? And and love of the evil for opposing the good. This is the great satanic Pit that the modern world is is being lowered into it. Well You got to get you want your antibodies to get mad at the cancer and you want it to not get mad at the healthy stuff So how do you get mad at the cancer?  We must both love virtue and we must hate evil now hate evil again. It's not violence.  It's not anything like that. It's just having a very clear moral knowledge About evil and I'm not talking about people who've done something wrong or who've done something bad We've all done that I mean people who are committed to it and and won't ever admit it and double down whenever confronted People who are just committed to evil So if you can hate evil and you can love virtue Then you can end up with happiness and pair bonding in a stable relationship because your antibodies keep the bad people away And draw the good people Closer and that's the closest thing to paradise I found in this existence Well put Yeah, and that's why people are getting mad at you for having become a speaker. I'm sorry It's just the way like I interviewed this this this guy who's the minister of the environment In brazil right to get some facts out about this amazonian thing, right? and you know people just they get hysterical and You know being hated by bad people, you know Good, I mean the cancer hates the antibody so to speak right and and that's I i'm sorry I don't really care that much about the feelings of the cancer No, I say it as a very positive thing that uh, I love it the guy that's getting so much Well the controversy is one thing but really the heat it's a positive thing.    I hate it, right?   Well, I'll tell you this too. I mean They're not my enemies because they're just enemies of philosophy The enemy is a truth of reason and evidence. I mean that they personalize it and me just shows how immature they are There is a hate what you represent and what you do It's not about me and of course the whole job of a philosopher is like being a good coach You know being a good coach is man. I hate that coach in the moment And and man that coach saved my life later, right? I mean so The job description of philosopher is hate me now love me later, right?  Oh, I'm so mad at you though They're so terrible and then like six 12 months later. It's like here's a picture of my baby I thank you so much for you know, this just it's the job.  That's you know like it or not That's job description. I'm happy to accept that that's been the case for all good philosophers around human history And there won't be any exception for me, but I'll tell you this man My enemies light a giant runway for my friends to find me and this is sort of what you're talking about It's like, oh man. I'm lost. Oh my gosh. There's a huge amount of fire and flurry and activity over there I wonder what's going on and then they find out that you know bad It's just they're clearing the woods.  I appreciate both your time today and your input I love doing it So around on the interview today, you guys can meet myself and stifon molyneux at the 21 convention 2019 of rland of florida This october 24th to the 27th and special announcement. I'll be making separately later today All tickets bought before october 1st are buy one get one free So you bring a friend to the conference if you buy before the end of this month if you buy in september A link to buy tickets will probably be beneath the video description other places in the chat things like that And you can always just google 21 convention and you'll find everything you need right away Stefan richard. Thanks for your time today. Appreciate it. Thanks. I just wanted to mention that if you're coming If you're watching this on my channel, uh, click on my affiliate link below I'm not getting paid for all of this but we do want to check sort of how many people come in through What it is that i'm doing so i'll put an affiliate link Below this in the video and into the podcast and just if you're going to buy Click on that link. It would be really really helpful. It doesn't enrich me But it certainly enriches the data that these guys can work with regarding me Cool All right guys, i'm gonna end it down. I really appreciate it. I'll see you next month in uh in florida Absolutely, we'll stay on private the element broadcast now Sure And it's about offline