And we're live everyone. My name is Anthony Johnson Founder and CEO of 21 studios and the 21 convention Proudly hosting the red man group today on 21 live formerly known as the red pill mafia. I Have with me, of course, not only myself Anthony Johnson I have Carl from black label logic thought of in sharp roll of tamasi from the rational male and rhinestone Rolo and rhinestone are also alumni speakers of the 21 convention Gentlemen, thanks for helping on Thanks for having me once again So before we get into today's two main Themes and topics which are gonna be red pill theory to practice or application of the ideas and then later purple pill Profiteering I want to check in with each of you and see what you guys have going on in terms of projects recent blog posts or issues that you guys wanted to kind of bring up and Clear the field with so to speak Fields open to anyone who kind of wants to kick off on that Okay, I guess I'll go first Yeah, I just I just wrapped up a long-term relationship week on the sharp reality my thanks goes out to Rolo to Massey Of course, so Ryan stone you but you guys both came on and dropped gems The reason I did that is because a lot of guys don't really want to go out and slay sluts forever And so bringing these guys on I thought brought a very unique insight to this as a matter of fact, Ryan The solo show that I did yesterday was based very loosely on the 12 levels of dread which which which went off very well The listeners certainly appreciated that Projects I've got going on. I'm working on you know getting Getting a mixer hooked up to my to my computer and start to take calls So that should liven up the show a little bit and we'll be able to curse out haters and things a lot things of that nature So that's that's what's going on here sounds like fun I'm looking forward to the same thing too at some point for this show We'll get live in Collins that we've talked about Rolo, what do you have going on lately? Um, well, let's see. I'm still making the rounds With regards to doing some live radio right now. I'm still doing Pat Campbell's show. I wish I could give somebody like a You know an actual time, you know when I'm on usually I'm on once a week But what that day ends up being I'm not really sure and then I went on A Jesse Peterson's show on Wednesday morning, which was pretty interesting I think it's one thing that's happening right now in the mainstream is the idea of Masculinity being toxic or masculinity being lacking is something that's that's that's really starting to hit the mainstream right now And I think you know Jesse has already always, you know had an interest in you know talking about that stuff but I'm finding that a lot of a lot of the people Who are hitting me up for interviews? I want to talk about my third book, which is positive masculinity Jesse Peterson is the really old black guy, right? Yeah. Yeah, he's he's in his he's in his 60s for sure But really really interesting. Did I mean? Oh, yeah, you can tell he's a you can tell he's a Professional interviewer because he knows he knows the questions to ask and he knows how to you know work with you as a as an Interviewee I guess yeah, I've got another interview coming up on Monday With a guy whose name I just can't recall at the top of my right now But Rich Cooper had him on his show and then this guy has a show as well And he you know, of course they all they did was talk about me on riches show So he's like well, we should just get him on my show. So I'm like so I agreed to that So on Monday morning, I'll post it out. You know, everybody know what I'm doing So pretty much just making the rounds right now I am still deep in the weeds with with the fourth book and doing the research for that I actually finally got in touch with Dalrock and we're bouncing ideas off of each other I'll still be the author of the book But at least you know now he's involved and I've got probably like three or four other guys involved in that project Which is book for the rational male, which is gonna focus mostly on religion and then the book I'm reading right now is this one right here. You can see This is hormone. Oh, yeah, okay. This is hormonal Hormonal is the first and only book I know by dr. Marty Hasselton and anybody who knows who she is she is the UCLA evolutionary psychologist that I quote quite a bit You know for her research and her colleagues research as well And I think a lot of people don't understand they think that all roll to Massey all he does is just throw out his opinion It's all anecdotal. He doesn't know it You know, he never gives you any peer reviewed studies and I'm like, no I do quite a bit It's just people don't people are too intellectually lazy to look up the you know the sources that I do cite She happens to be one of them Now I was going to write a like a full book review on this But I'm kind of deciding that I'm not gonna do that now because the the book is great It's chock full of information That I've been quoting really for the last almost 10 or 12 years on my blog and way back I'm so swap, but the book is really written for you know, hey as nicely as I can put this it's written for an eighth grade reading level and It's written to women and I love Marty Hasselton, but she feels the need to You know establish her feminist cred every, you know every introduction to every chapter And I think maybe she's worried that feminists are going to take this and they're gonna You know string her up for it kind of like they did with Cassie J And and so I'm not I'm just gonna leave it alone I still think it's a great book and I still think if you if you can get past her, you know Her feminism her yeah, I don't even I really never even thought of her as a feminist I just thought of her as a research scientist But you know, she seems to want to promote that idea and I really think that's more for book sales than anything else And it's there's a lot of really kind of silly asides and and you know Non-information that you have to sort of wade through to get to the real information But basically I think she's appeasing the feminists throughout the book Yeah, and I know she's done that before because she's been called to the carpet quite a bit With regard to some of her research because women simply don't like to have this Information out in the wild and so whenever she gives a talk or whenever she puts out a new you know a new Research of some sorts. It's the first thing the first people that have come in and refute her are feminists And then it's somebody else and and everybody piles on and it's it's basically feminism that wants us to all believe that there's a blank slate and Because that's where feminism thrives is on a blank slate and with this book and with her research There's just no denying that there's no such thing as a blank slate. So that's what I've been doing. Cool. Cool Ryan, what have you been up to? Well, the boys at MRP have a pretty simple plan right now every once a year We like to go back to the very basics. We call them the 60 days of dread We're starting those up pretty soon. We just had an ask me anything from one of the no more mr. Nice guy core group there Which is pretty neat. He's kind of Cross-posting that between the no more mr. Nice guy sub as well as the married red pill 60 days of dread is essentially just the very simple stuff I know why I talked with thought of it about the 12 days of dread how first step is to build a frame Start lifting start dressing better and we just hit all the basics up We find that if you leave guys to talk amongst themselves They start getting a little abstract and so we kind of like to bring it back to well Yeah, but are you lifting weights? Are you dressing?  So Yeah, on top of that did the podcast with Donovan that was a lot of fun. He's got a really cool audience Where's that podcast that is that on YouTube and guys check that out Yeah, yeah, I'll go ahead and put the well, yeah I'll put the link in here for you Anthony and you can you can tweet that out. Yeah, so I'll put it I'm under the I'll put actually underneath this video to another description Podcast so 100% yeah Yeah, and then I'll just end it off with one of your readers said after I was talking about the girls I was dating in my single days. They said I was probably gonna end up divorced by the end of the show I'll have you know everything's going well fine. She gave me a big hug when I got done She made me a coffee. She's pretty sweet and that's it for me Cool. Oh, I'm getting out of scotch Okay Carl you've had you've had a couple blog posts come out one or two since the last show, right? Well, I happen to actually had any because a while back I wrote five or six part essay called on value where I went through the Entire chain of different value judgment we can make there's sexual market value objective value subjective value Etc. And I started another post where I'm trying to write an Essay that puts that into kind of a macro perspective linked up towards the current trends of virtue The performance burden and a few other things and trying to link that up to the bigger picture in our economy So I'm currently It's probably gonna be a three-parter and I have two other parts done But I want to be able to post them rapidly after each other and make sure they're all Linked together. So that's what I'm working on Cool. Cool. Good shit So in terms of the show itself We decided on two main topics to kind of split up the show and the haves with the first one is gonna be red pill theory to practice In the sense of applying red pill theories and ideas to actual game and intersexual dynamics. I Can speak from personal experience that since finding the red pill that it's absolutely been a huge It's like steroids for game Like I was literally banging a porn star right before I found the red pill like a famous one And I can say that since finding the red pill my game has gotten like way better Because I actually have an idea of like why these tactics and techniques are working Whether it's dark triad traits that are being used on purpose or more specific Openers and things like that So Rolo, do you want to kick this off in terms of how the red pill actually applies to game and why it's why it's Very complimentary and compatible and not just like some random theory Well, I've always told anybody who's ever read my books, you know, a lot of people will criticize me for saying Well, it's all theory and no practice and I think I think that's kind of unfair because a lot of the especially my earlier work was based on sort of You know dissecting old game practices So like if I was gonna read Neil Strauss if I was reading mystery method or if I was reading even some of the guys from RSD from the old stuff that they did It was me Applying my understanding of behavioral psychology to you know the dynamics and the things that they were they were teaching as practice and I thought that that was really interesting because a lot I think one of the one of the things that really got me was I remember mystery was saying something about how comfort How do you use comfort and in game? was saying something about how like I think if he read something about how airline airline path, you know the psychology of putting Passengers on an airline and making them comfortable is making them less Uncomfortable and I thought that was really interesting because at the same time I was sort of reading about you know pleasure and pain and stuff like that and I think that when people when When people enter into a particular environment or a particular context and in this case Let's just say it's you know You're gonna you bought a ticket to go on an airplane and you know You're gonna be uncomfortable because you you bought the coach tickets and you saw you could afford you're gonna sit there And you're gonna be as comfortable as you possibly can in an uncomfortable environment and something that you were you know You were planning to be uncomfortable. So when you're planning ahead to be uncomfortable you You look at any little bit of comfort as some kind of good feeling or some kind of positive You know positive stroke I guess at that particular time and mystery at that time was trying to apply that principle to gain So if you got me when you look at game and you look at seduction You're you have to have a willing participant in the first place You've got to have somebody who wants to be seduced But that person who is in that position who wants to be in this case You know the chicks that are that are the women that you want to get with They they have to want to be seduced first of all but they also have committed themselves to a particular environment where they're open to being seduced and So when I started teasing that out and I started, you know dissecting, you know, just how You know what the psychology was behind that. I thought it was actually really brilliant I don't really think that you know any of the older guys like you know like mystery or Certainly not Neil Strauss, but some of the older, you know the older guys from you know the early 2000s I don't think that they realized what it was they were doing They were just out there doing it and they didn't know why things worked It just did work and so they were comparing notes Remember, this is in the early days of the of the internet really I mean when when you know We don't even have Facebook at this time. We have Forums like alt fast seduction and some of these other and even so swap was one of those forums back then And so that was really the only way you could you could you know bounce ideas off each other Because we didn't have WordPress back then or we did but it was very you know very You know early version of WordPress, but so blogs weren't even that big a deal And if you wanted to do a blog you had to do it yourself. You had to know something about web design I had to do all that so you've only got just these these forums that are facilitating these guys getting together and just basically comparing notes as guys and I was in I was in college at the time and and you know, I was studying, you know psychology as well as you know a Bachelor of Fine Arts and One of the reasons I decided to double major was because I was starting to apply all of these what I thought at the time were novel ideas towards seduction and From a psychological standpoint and I knew about you know evolutionary psychology back then But it wasn't that big a deal because it was all There's different schools of psychology And so I started applying what the one that I knew that I always thought was the most rational version of psychology Which was behavioral psychology So I started applying that to it and that from that and from game really game informed my theory at those times And so game informs theory and then theory goes back and informs game So I've always said this on my on my my site where I say that you know the red pill and game are mutual like we have a mutual Relationship so guys go out there and they want to get laid and they want to you know They want to see what's gonna work and they they apply themselves and I picked out the you know The psychological aspects of that and then I kind of gave it back to them And then once I started digging more into evolutionary psychology psychology and then an ego bio You start using those principles then you can sort of build on that I think one one of the reasons that what I do is so effective is I'm just able to articulate that a little bit better It's not like like I was just showing you a minute ago There's you know Marty Hassleton has all this great Research on you know why women go into obulatory shift and what it you know What the behaviors are that they do during you know their their peak fertility window, you know dressing up more You know more more sensitive to masculinization of faces and there's a whole I mean if you want to you could read my blog Or you can read her research, but there's a whole just Laundry list of behaviors that women go into when they get to this this brings it up an interesting question So you said that the relationship between the red pill and game is Mutual when you say it's also reciprocal the way they feed into each other. Yeah now now. Yes In the early days probably not as much as they do now That's because we now recognize that there's the symbiotic relationship between Game and the red pill and that's why I'll never throw You know pick up artists under the bus. I'll never throw migtails under the bus I'll never throw even even MRAs have something to add to it as much as I disagree with a lot of their you know They're founding principles. I think that a lot of the information they put out there is definitely accurate And we need people to do that. I just think that what they do with that information I disagree with their their practice to change Well, here's a point that I want to make and first we'll go with Rolo and then it's open open the floor for anyone I'll stand sir You know Rolo and the red pill all of you guys usually will not throw pick up artists and migtail under the bus For the most part, but they will happily throw the red pill under the bus a good example Be pick up artists who are very successful with women can really go out and like you know like Donovan said just slice Let's really kill it, but then they will happily throw the red pill under the bus say you don't need it and in a sense they are Explicitly they're trying to discard the red pill, but implicitly they're using it and applying it in ways. They probably don't realize So what do you say to those guys Rolo and to anyone else after that? Who will happily practice game and get laid and truly actually be successful at some point and then just totally Discard the red pill and say it's trash. It's a bunch of haters and nonsense I'll tell you this right now It's in the first book and one of my one of my essays is it's called the the evolution of game And it basically goes through what I just told you how it was game and then it went to red pill and then the red pill has sort of Compartmentalized itself into Interests for different guys. So like for instance, we have the married red pill forum right now Why because guys are awakened well married and they want to know how can they apply this to their to their lives? Same thing I would say it goes for I'm your pickup artists have always been there So they've always been a subset of the red pill even though they didn't know they were subset of the red pill then and You have a pillar of the man is for you mean well master and the red pill too They were using red pill what I would say red pill awareness in game But they didn't really make the connection. They just knew what worked, right? I mean they just turned the key on the car and the ignition and it goes I don't care where these lines the car works, right? That was me a hundred percent. Yeah, and then there's MRAs who you know Have their own interest and I would say MRA guys the majority of them are definitely red pill aware I just don't think that they that they apply them apply that knowledge in a way that is beneficial to them And I don't think that they really understand that you know There are a lot of that information that they take they apply it in a way that is egalitarian Equalism and that's where I disagree with with them They retain elements of the blue pill you're saying. Oh, absolutely But they retain the parts of the blue pill the bats feminism has sort of indoctrinated them into like if I talk to a guy like Dr. Warren Farrell who I I attribute this guy for my own unplugging a long time ago, but he's still Unwilling to make that that jump he's unwilling to make that leap into You know truly understanding the red pill and understanding what it does for him because he still believes that He still believes the lie that feminists have been selling which is we can all be equal We can have this gender parody and I I totally disregard that I totally don't think that there's going to be anything like equality And I think equality between the sexes has always been sort of this red herring, you know It's been this cover story for you know female supremacism. That's enough. That's a whole nother show We could probably too but oh yeah, but I think that all of these These subsets of the red pill are just natural progressions.  I'm out. I don't want to deal with the with the women anymore And I mean the most extreme ones there's also I think a lot of people really don't understand mig tau as they believe That it's just a bunch of bitter guys who are just checking out of the game And they're trying to get other guys to check out of the game too, and that's what really upsets really blue pill Tragcon mindsets is that they think that they're promoting this idea of This disengagement with women and to an extent they're right, but they're not that's not the entire story of mig tau But again, it's they're red pill aware, but once they're aware what do they do with it? What do pick up artists do with it? What do you mig tau's do with it? What do MRAs do with it? What do you you know married red pill guys do with it? And I think there needs to be an understanding that you can be red pill aware and Still be blue pill really you're still be you know locked into locked into your blue pill Understandings so I read some of them read some of the questions here. Just cracking up.  You're going so anyways I Think that we need to understand that there's going to be subsets and particularly what we were talking about earlier is that When when red pill moves into the mainstream a little bit more we need to have an accurate representation of that and getting back to your question like when I see a Documentary called the the red pill by Cassie J That has nothing to do with the red pill and has really very very little to do with men's rights It has everything to do about her own personal story of you know personal discovery and it's all about her and even to this day You know here. We are almost like two years after the release of it and I was saying this before I said this story is going to be all about her and it still is all about her her Ted Taugh's all about her has nothing to do with the guys I mean there they're just there's a vehicle the MRA is happy to use feminists as a vehicle for their own message, but a Smart feminist like say Christina Hoff Summers or Cassie J Sees them and manipulates and uses them to advance their own career to advance their own stories And you know all we have all we're left with is a Dean Esme and a Paul Elam crying on some Documentary somewhere Imagine my shock that they use that they use men. Yeah, well and then just what you were saying before now I'll finish up here is that I think that Red pill is a brand name right now that people want to apply and bastardize and use for their own ideologies and MRAs were are a good example of that because when Elliott Rogers shot up Santa Barbara Nobody wanted to have anything to do with the red pill because he was talking about how he was red pill And he left just a tons and tons of YouTube videos about you know how he hated alpha males And he was part of pickup artist hate and the guy was you know, he was anything but red He was red pill aware, but what did he do with that? He took it and he used it to self-destruct and to kill other people by the way, too But during that time look who threw the red pill under the bus. Well, it's the MRA So we're the first ones out the gate to throw throw red pill under the bus And I will say this and I probably won't get asked on his show now if I'm not saying this But Joe Rogan threw the red pill under the bus at that time because he didn't have anything to do with those guys because that was in a you know that There's this Stupid idea that red pill guys are just these angry bitter Massageness who are there comparing notes with each other to be better angry better massageness I has nothing it has absolutely nothing to do the anger is definitely a phase of the red pill but as You know as a praxology and as a I don't even call it a movement But just as an awareness and an understanding of intersexual dynamics Yes, anger is going to be part of that but that anger is usually directed at from within not without yeah from your own past mistakes Carl, did you want to hop in on this too? Yeah, I just started thinking about the first piece of game advice I ever read back in like 2002 2003 and it was one sentence attraction isn't a choice and What that kind of led me into was If you look at it this way that nobody makes a constant choice to be attracted to anyone else then you have to start looking at You have the Corvettes, which is what everyone wants and then you have a Toyota Prius Which is a car about as masculine as a bus feed rider Nobody would pick Pick the Prius if they could pick any car without having to be sensible about it And that made me think fitness cues are not really pragmatic to carry an extra 20 pounds of muscle Means you have less calories to survive you require more calories every day your immune system suffers Maybe a little bit because you have less energy to fight up bacteria and this led me to mysteries peacocking Which was essentially him Putting himself out there and taking a risk in that attack me go ahead I can defend myself and my frame will be stronger for it and my value goes up and When you start looking at it this way you have the pickup artists who work on those fitness cues the non-pragmatic fitness cues to the point where Women are attracted to them no matter what the women are not making the choice They're just simply are then you have the mig towel We're saying we're either unable or unwilling to do those fitness cues So we're gonna put our resources towards another end and then you have the MRAs who are taking the position Hey, you know what? I don't want to waste a lot of time lifting weights and eating protein Can't we just watch Netflix chill and eat pizza together? So you have three different strategies based on your own Let's call it competitive advantage and all of these are based on the same underlying theory that is the red pill and In the since the PUA's until now that's gone from here is what you're supposed to do and here is why it works and The interesting thing is if you start to tell someone how to fish he can feed himself forever But if you only fish for him every day, then once you go away, then he's going to starve again and if you're selling product based on continuing to supply people with Various scripts and techniques and gambits then you end up with someone who's dependent on you Whereas if you tell him here's how you come up with your own shit, then he doesn't have to pay you anymore Okay Don event and you want to hop on this as well. Yeah, I actually had a few a few points to make with regards to what you said Anthony when you first found the red pill You said it was like you had like a superpower or something like that It was an exterior. It was like steroids steroids, right? We're right. I equate I equate the when a man first finds the red pill just like Rollo said you go through all kinds of stages But there is that one moment where things just snap like all of a sudden everything Everything comes into focus like just like listen just like the the matrix the one of the very last scenes on the matrix Where Keanu Reeves character Neo looks down the hallway and he sees all of the agents in code He now understands, you know the matrix. Well, I Equate finding the red pill and everything snapping It's almost like having x-ray vision Because you pick up on when everything just falls into place you pick up on nuance You pick up on verbal cues non-verbal cues slut tells Undercover slut tells and like I tell my view I tell my listeners this all the time when you have true red pill awareness and red pill knowledge When a girl is talking to you It's as though you're watching like one of those Japanese kung-fu flicks kung-fu flicks Like they're talking and saying one thing, but you're seeing the subtitle on the bottom So when a girl says to you yeah, I used to be married and kids, but I decided to get had You know, I wasn't where I wanted to be in life So I got a divorce and you know, I got on a reality show what you're saying is that you cheated on your husband Took him for all he was worth because you got selfish and wanted to do something selfish, you know regardless This is how it goes. So that's good. Would you say that? Red pill awareness helps you see past the behaviors into the motivations of why would say and do what they do absolutely and Thought something else the red pill teaches you is that women aren't complicated at all Women on honestly women are as simple as a white door They're not in the way women have been sort of packaged to us since birth is that women are these complex creatures They're mysterious and how to understand women and there's a book as thick as the Bible. No women are simple They're they're very simple to understand and it's very simple to find out what motivates them Which is which is basically them women are women are inherently selfish just like men are but Figuring out women is not that hard. You just have to understand what makes them tick and why they do what they do On Cassie J's the red pill I actually remember seeing seeing a guy who was being interviewed by some chick on the news About about some guy renouncing the red pill this guy went on and said yes I wasn't doing that well with women and I looked up the red pill and I tried the strategies and it didn't work This goes exactly to what Carlos said about teaching a man to fish and he can feed himself for life What a lot of men do they make the mistake of learning pickup lines and strategies and techniques and learning to become a Pua instead of cultivating their lifestyle to live the rest the red pill lifestyle Teaching a man to fish is exactly the same thing as lifting weights getting your financial house in order learning how learning what women learning what? What makes a woman tick the red pill is not a strategy It's a lifestyle and by virtue of just sheer human behavior The more the higher your value is by cultivating all of these other things other than getting laid the more attractive You're gonna be with women again.  Well, is the red pill really real? What am I really here for so it's important for men to understand that yes Most men find the red pill because of sexual frustration and or heartbreak But the deeper they dive in the more the more they find that it's more important to develop yourself And listen Ryan says this about about married red pill the other day on my show He says listen, they don't talk about women. They talk about yourself the 12 levels of dread has little to do with the woman It's all about your behavior. What you're doing. What you're thinking With regards to what Rolo said about people who have red pill awareness and people who actually put it into practice I called those guys 5%ers I would go as far as to say I don't know because of the internet anywhere between 75 and 80 percent of men walking around in the United States in the UK They probably have red pill awareness, but 5% of those people actually put it into practice It's one thing to read Rolo to Massey and you know, listen to 21 studios or watch Donovan sharp It's another thing to go out and actually do these things And you know, they're different sex of the red pill, right? We have the puas the migtails the MRAs I'm not gonna get into that Migtails are there are many levels to the migtails as far as I know But the ones that I absolutely cannot stand are the low-level migtails the guys who do nothing but complain Okay, everything that everything that low-level migtails is predicated on is complaining. There's no solution guys Listen man being good with women. It's not easy. Okay being good with women The funny thing is is you have to untrain yourself to to you have to untrain yourself to untrain yourself to do And be everything that society has told you not to be look if you buy my $5,000 boot camp I'll make it easy for you. There you go But but again if you buy the $5,000 boot camp just like Carlos said you're paying a fisherman to fish for you You need you need I don't want to call it a life coach But you need red pill mentors you need to consume red pill content every day because we are only human listen man I'm in a long-term relationship myself.  I shouldn't have said that I shouldn't have I shouldn't have done this This is how it happens. This is why you listen to guys like Rollo and Anthony Sometimes I go back and watch episodes myself and say goddamn I need to practice a little bit more of what I preach a man's natural instinct is to take care of women But it would seem that the better we treat them the worse they treat us That's what makes the red pill so hard to digest. Everybody swallows the red pill when they get it digesting it That's a whole nother ballgame Just a couple more quick things. I remember somebody was talking about Not needing the red pill right like they they find the PUA sites. They become good with women, etc Then they say yeah, I was bringing that up a lot of pickup artists are like that They'll find the red pill and be like yeah, you don't need this shit Just do it.       You're just right algae here. I haven't heard anything that good in a couple in days.   He had the red pill reddit on his computer.    So The way I describe it is when I used to work at Fleet School Naval Fleet School and I was a first-generation teacher. No idea what I'm doing. I had a six-month course. Whatever That's the pickup stuff But every time we were having problems with our class We had a bullpen of about 20 or 30 other instructors and hey, I just had this with my students How do you fix that and everybody just swaps notes and then we all became very good instructors? We all got on the same page our students were kept in line and that's all that it is like you can make it about I don't know why people think that it's like a white F. Donovan and I do you really think we're in for like Hey a white ethno state in the States.  There's no more men's clubs.  It's not superpowers.  He doesn't have the whole thing So I'll have like let's say being generous. I got 90 of my game down. There's a 10. I don't know Say rollo overlaps with that 10. So we start swapping some notes between each other We teach each other this we teach each other that all of a sudden we're both at 102 Fucking awesome That's all we have to worry about as far as My red pilling it was and uh back to donovan's thing where he was talking about the mig towels and that I we always call them mig towel second wave kind of like a tip of the hat towards feminism They aren't the I got burned by a woman and i'm out. They are the uh, you can't fire me.   Absolutely. Absolutely Yeah, you read his book.    Like I was Yeah, I know the feeling. Hey rollo. Let's get uh, you have something you want to say Yeah, I just wanted I just wanted to back up here a little bit It was um, and I'll just hit on this this last topic here is um, and I've said this before I really believe that the red pill as a theory as a praxeology as an aggregate of men's experiences It needs to be open source. It needs to be everybody contributes to it and it needs to be decentralized I'm I'm happy that a lot of people see me as you know, a godfather of the manager fear. I'm one of One of the three r's that I'm glad. Thank thank you. It's it's humbling and and you know At least it means that my message is getting out there. But honestly, I see the The red the red pill as open source. I think everybody has every guy even even the worst mig towel Who you know wants to give up on life? It can still have something to contribute, you know And I think that we do ourselves a disservice when we When we discriminate and that's one of the reasons why I really hate the idea that the alt-right is trying to co-brand The red pill with their ideology because you know, anybody knows me You know, I have a very large, you know black following for for the rational male and I have a really multi cultural multi-ethnic readership for For what I do and I'm glad for that because I want religious too. You have christians Yeah, and that just shows you the Shows you the the breadth of what the red pill can really be But when we co-brand it with an ideology, that's when It's it it becomes part of that and just like what what um, what ryan was saying is that if we if we co-brand it with with a particular political set or We co-brand it with a religion then it becomes just a part of that ideology rather than You know be separated away from You know from what it should be which is to be as rationalist and as Objectivist as it can possibly be That's why I don't like when people say, oh, it's you know, red pill is an ideology.  It is a praxeology first and then what you do with that information You can apply that to your ideology.  Okay. That doesn't make me a doctor. That doesn't make me You know, that doesn't put me on the same level as say somebody like jordan peterson But I do think I have something to contribute to that So that was one thing. The other thing that you guys were also getting back to was um internalizing Game and internalizing the red pill at red pill awareness Just like what donovan was saying, you know, maybe there's five 10 to five to 10 percent of guys who Are applying Red pill in their in their lives They they know it and then but they don't get out there and they don't do anything And I have gotten into it with um, you some of my own commenters.   It's game. Here's let me show you how game And it's all about game.  It's it's not a disadvantage It's not a disadvantage in game to be good-looking. Okay.  Well, I was gonna say um Everybody always asks me assist.  When can I stop? You know with the burden of performance when can I you know catch a break right?   I I I know I recognize it and I respond to it as a red pill aware guy would respond to it Because it's who I have become now and therefore you don't you don't feel like an anxiety about it It's just even internalized it Donovan real quick Yeah, real quick. Um, just to piggyback off of what rola was talking about about about game detractors talking about It's a numbers game. I totally agree.  Yeah, you approach two girls and they blew you out Like that listen. That's the game man. Like this is how it goes Well, you know the other hard to uh shoot yourself in the foot if you don't if you don't load the gun That's right. That's exactly right.  It's a it's a continuity game. Okay. So what I tell him I says How many guys well if you went out and you made one approach every weekend for a year That is 52 approaches you have made in one year Now that's persistence. Okay and 52 approaches is probably more approaches than the average guy Living today does in his lifetime, right? Yep So if you're persistent about it and you you learn from those mistakes and something sticks and something does it It's about being persistent. It's not about, you know, a machine gun effect of just approach approach approach approach And I know that there are some Pickup artists who who say that you just got to keep going you got to keep going and you go out there and be a Machine you don't learn anything from that. There's there's two kinds of learning There's a kind of learning where you internalize it and it becomes a part of who you are And then there's rote memorization And a lot of what I see guys who have are the biggest critics of pickup artistry Are not a critic of pickup artistry. They're a critic of rote memorization. It's an act It's not who they are It's the script that they're supposed to be reading from at a particular time Yeah, and it's like I was I was carless was saying if you teach a man or if you If you buy a man a whore you get him laid for a night But if you teach a man game you get him laid for a lifetime. There we go Carl uh, you're you're up, buddy Yeah, I wanted to add to go back to what rala was saying that Ideas can actually be poisoned and ideas can be termed toxic If you look at our current situation Just saying men and women are biologically different and therefore they behave differently and they act differently in a certain context Is politically incorrect Because some guys in germany back in the 20s 30s and 40s took the whole biological determinism thing way too far So we got the pendulum swung to the blank slate where oh, there's no biological differences between anyone And the only difference is what we raised what culture what parents we have and so on The idea that we were biologically different was poisoned and just to handle that in public has become toxic If we mix up the red pill with All the other aspects religions politics economics anything else You eliminate Some of the potential market for it because the market is everyone Everyone would be better off if they internalized red pill theory But you're not going to get everyone if the theory is seen as excluding someone by default If it's seen as excluding black people or Jews or whatever They're not going to go in and read and give it a chance because they know oh, they don't like me to begin with I'm not going to listen to those bastards Uh, Ryan, you're up.  They met him.  It'll usually then kind of broaden out Well, again, this goes this goes to what I was talking about earlier.  It's going to be a goddamn dumpster fire every time Now one of the one of the things that I I use as an example here and I I don't think it's any secret really um because if you've read the game the book the game Which came out in what 2000 strife doesn't fall straight out. Yeah Um, even back then as far back as then mystery was suicidal he was suicidal because he could not make his his game Fulfill his blue pill idealism and his blue pill fantasies I I've got a post and a in a chapter in preventive medicine That's called a new hope And I constantly get these guys telling me.  It was only possible in that fantasy land It was only possible if the blue pill was the right way of thinking and it's not we already know that We break away from that and you cut away from all that old idealism But what these guys want to do is they want to cling back to that they want to say well I know how to pick up chicks and in fact I I wrote a post called Um children with dynamite or was it dream girls and children with dynamite and I quoted uh ross jeffreys in that I said you know what?  It's like giving you know dynamite to children And uh and sure enough. I mean that's that's what you see in a lot of the old The old rsd guys, um you see certainly with mystery mystery I you know again, I don't want to pick on him But the guy has been you know on suicide watch for a very long time now Most of the reason is because he knows the game And he knows how to get late and he knows how to get women But he doesn't know what to do with them He doesn't know that the the goals that he has that he wants to apply all this red pill knowledge to Are false and they're not possible. Can we just pause in that for a second because I agree with you Mystery knows how to get women, but he doesn't know what to do with them He doesn't know Yeah, yeah, because he's never he's never killed that blue pill beta part of himself And the same thing really if you go and you look at some of these guys like And we're going to get into the purple pill side of things here in a bit But if you look at guys like tucker max or if you look at a guy like uh neil strecker neil strauss is is He's basically I don't even want to call him Purple pill the guy has gone fully blue pill and has From what I know after reading what he he got into In the game and reading him now It's like reading two different people and it's like you should know better than this and he does know better than this He's just a chosen to put himself into denial because he can profit from that denial So if you look at those guys you look at those guys who They learn Red pill like when I was when I was first Talking to guys on so swab way back in the day The reason I wrote children with dynamite is because these guys would come up to me and say Okay, um, teach me how to get chicks teach me how to do cocky funny teach me how to do peacocking teach me how to do Amuse mastery teach me how you know tell me what I need to know tell me why it works Okay, so that's that's fine But teach me all that stuff and then when you do and they start getting laid they go. Okay. I got it from here man Thanks a lot, you know, I'm out and what they're doing is they're applying game without Understanding red pill and there's a separation between the two and I think that's a very very dangerous separation Just to have just to have on what just to have red pill awareness is not enough And just to have game is not enough You have to bring the two of them together to live a better more You know internalizing both sides of this to have a better life because once you get past the i'm getting laid What do you what then where do you go people always say what's yeah, what's next? What's after the red pill, right? Uh carl, did you want to hop in it's been a couple minutes there Yeah Well in the end a woman fucks a man for two reasons As a means to an end or an end in itself She wants to get fucked or she wants to get something else Now the first case is a non-zero sum game both people gain because it's a transaction of I want to get laid with you You want to get laid with me?   Yeah um The ryan did you want to hop in or did donovan? It ties into the children with dynamite. It's a concept and it came from Glover's work actually It's called a covert contract and it's exactly the same thing The guy thinks in his head if I learn this game then she will turn into mommy wife But you don't actually tell her that you just expect her to get with the program It's a it's probably the biggest psychological hang-up that I ever see on the married red pill so And it has to do with congruence That which just means acting in the way That aligns with what you're trying to do So I'll use an example here one of our guys for the last seven months He's wanted to have his wife with him not had sex like once a year something Insane amount like that Shit Yeah, just let that sink in for a minute.  I'm out of the mood If he was doing that for like nine months just yeah, she's trying something new. Is this alpha. Is this okay?   He doesn't want to get laid He wants her to desire him so you find out that it's that validation thing And that's what i'm talking about with congruence.      I'm gonna read a couple Yeah, believe it or not. There are some naysayers out here the purple pill says quote I think it's projection to say women like us based on our charm It's also very blue pill women are cold and calculating especially in the club in the bar scene Dude And this is funny. I love it when people come in here and they think they know more than we do Right like they give us all of these theories dude You think it's projection to say women like us based on our charm. Guess what? No, it's not We don't want a woman who is charming in the way. They want us charming. All right Like let's not let's not try Let's not try to outsmart the room here He also said something Yeah, yeah, he also said here. I studied game for two years. It did nothing for my results You are watching the wrong dudes my friend. Yeah, that's that's just all there is to well Him studying game for two years means he never went out and did anything Right like dude, like I took a class in psychology It never did shit for me.  The reason and not to shameless plug here The reason why my show is called the sharp reality is that 95 of the stories that I tell are based on anecdotal evidence I don't it's not I don't talk about well ryan stone said xyz and wrote no This is what happened. I tried this on xyz girl and she blew me out xyz girl cheated on me because I did xyz This guy again, uh, there was one more thing I wanted to wanted to point out He didn't say he practiced. Oh, he practiced. Oh, here. He went out to Here he comes. Here he comes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so basically, yeah This guy is one of these. I call these guys, uh internet gangsters, right? Like I don't seriously like he's all big and bad and confrontational with within the context of chatting But you can't come on here in this forum and debate in real time Like you can't you can't do that and I'm gonna go ahead and I'm gonna go ahead and take my walk to first base I got carlos in the on deck circle. You're up Oh, yeah, carl jude pile on no, I just wanted to comment because I mean if someone's saying women are cold and calculating You're giving them way too much credit That's like saying a drug dealer on the corner is a great financier Right. No. No, he's not He's got he's got an enforcer waiting in the wings to take you out when you leave the room Uh, women are well cunning is is a better word because they have this Built in Machiavellian type deal because they like to communicate correctly They tend to have plausible deniability Anything you the 48 laws of power tells you to do women tend to do automatically Well, carl, I I have a question I don't want to cut carl Guys, that is hanging so carl, would you say that women unlike men Lack significantly the ability to exert physical force into the world So they have to figure out another way to exert force to survive and replicate Is that a long lens of what you're getting at?    Oh, you're projecting No, well, okay, great fine end of discussion.  Listen to me.  So it's not working for me. I don't know. I'm doomed. I'm gonna go mig town I'm going monk mode, you know, okay fine if that's what you need to do great But don't go and narrow it down to just well, you just got to be good looking you just got to be hot Yeah, you do that's looks count. Okay, but game counts too and even affluence counts to a small degree I would say um, but knowing, you know Knowing game and understanding intersexual dynamics. There's still a it's it's good to know Even if you're not even if you say, you know what? I'm gonna be a celibate monk It's still good to know red pill awareness and have that because you still have to deal with women I tell migtals this all the time. I say, you know what?  You still have to deal with your aunt or these women at work or whatever Yeah, your daughter, you're not exiting the game. You still need to know how these how this works Now unless you want to go live in a shack somewhere like, you know, the unabomber, I don't see Well, Rola, I was just gonna say that based on what I've seen you tweet.  I don't look like, uh, you know, Chris Hemsworth. I'm never gonna get laid, right? And they don't see they don't see that there's more to it than just good looks.  I'm not telling you not to I'm saying go live be be the best you you could possibly be But don't shoot yourself in the foot.  You're disqualifying yourself from ever having any success to begin with And I can see it. I've seen these guys do this and they get they just get nihilistic about it And there's definitely a nihilistic part of unplugging because once again You're pulling yourself out of that blue pill idealism and these guys who now have this red pill awareness they get suicidal they get nihilistic or they get angry and sometimes I would say most of the time that anger is directed at themselves But that nihilism is usually a sense of hopelessness for themselves But that hope the reason that they're hopeless is because the hope they had from the blue pill is gone now And so here they are left alone in a red pill reality and they they've got a first of all They got to figure it out and the second of all How are they going to thrive in this and what kind of new goals are they going to create for themselves? And a lot of guys never push past looking at that abyss and that sounds like what this guy is doing right here Is he's just not understanding that there's more to it than just that there's more to first of all There's more to think he's just getting laid, but if the guy is out to just get laid It's not that the red pill is not going to work for him It's just that he hasn't figured out what is going to work Just for him with that knowledge and then within a red pill context I'll tell you what else he was doing. He was trying to get uh, he basically hijacked the chat and um Not anymore. He's he's got it right. I was gonna say he's he's got his own channel He's in here.  No, I know who that was I was Steve hoca and he's got that's what I said, dude That's what I thought it was Steve hoca.  Oh, it's not going to work for me You know and these are the dudes and I'm I'm going to throw this out there But have you any of you guys ever heard of the true force loneliness guys you want to talk about another? It's true for us tfl.  I don't think it's nihilism Technically red pilling is nihilism where you kill the old god to make a new one I'm going to call it narcissism It's that they have a script in their head that nothing I do and the world is against me And it doesn't matter if it's a good script or a bad script. It's just that's what they're latching onto and it's fucking horrible Well, that's the perfect nihilism would be awesome Uh gentlemen before we get into I want to ship the conversation in a minute to purple pill profiteers and profiteering But before we do that, I want to spend a good 10 minutes or 15 on questions from the audience Uh, the first one I saw earlier in the chat was actually related to the medusa speech I gave back in 2016 and the work of rollo tamasi the rational male The question was essentially I think it's actually gone at this point the track gets deleted after a while The question is uh, what I have married or even dated medusa how I found the rational male before I met her Uh, medusa being a chick with a number of personality disorders, uh cluster b The answer is I very much doubt I would have dated her Uh, because I think one of the key elements to spotting predatory woman Woman with a dangerous personality or cluster b personality disorder Is red pill awareness because cluster b disorders or any mental health issue Can and will often exaggerate uh hypergamy and female behaviors So red pill awareness is a very good in my opinion and I like the herolas take on this too But red pill awareness is a very good, uh way to avoid dangerous and toxic relationships In addition to things like studying personality disorders, uh mental illness things like that So rollo, did you have any comments on that too? Well, I will say this and and this is Nothing new between yourself and myself When you asked me to go and be a speaker at the 21 convention I turned you down initially because I felt that your Your whole outfit was very much purple pill and this can sort of segue into the the next topic But I felt it was very very purple pill and then when I watched your video on medusa Um, I once I saw it and once I did a little bit of research And I I watched some of her videos that you you guys had done with her and socrates or whoever the interviews Yeah, and those interviews and I'm like how the hell are these guys not seeing this How is it because it's I have a I would I call a red pill lens I think pretty much anybody who becomes red pill aware Can't help but see the outside world You know their old world in that lens and see what's going on around them Whether it's with women or it's work or whatever Willful ignorance Yeah, willful ignorance and then so I'm looking at this and I'm thinking well, why are these guys not sick, you know Picking this out. Well, they they don't want to they want to have their theories Validated and if this hot girl who looks like a porn star is You know patting them on the back and saying yes, good boy. Yeah, you're right 100% and and is is giving you all of this positive You know feedback What are you going to do you don't have any incentive to really look at it in any other way in fact You'll defend it because because a hot chick has just you know verified what you're saying Whether she's manipulating you or she's not now. I told I told anthony back in the early days I said I would have picked this out in a heartbeat I was said this this chick is doing something or something wrong with this girl In fact, I think a lot of the criticism that's leveled at anthony is and is rightfully so is he should have seen this He should have seen it coming now. I can't and I don't really hold men's You know mistakes to them once they recognize those mistakes and they they make a you know a u-turn from what they were doing And they you know they acknowledge that and certainly anthony has but I didn't want to have anything to do with this outfit because i'm like if if this chick can Put one past you guys can put one past your best speakers And you know go up there and be a part of the show I don't want anything to do with that and this was a time when he had just broken up with her And he was reading my book and he was sort of coming into being truly red pill aware and I was telling I was so look I'll do your I'll do your speaking spot because I know tanner guzzi had done it I said well, I'll do it if I can get you know tanner and I can get Goldman and I can get christian mcqueen and I can get some of these other guys on there Even ryan was one of those guys and I said we need to turn this into a real red pill Convention but i'm not going to do it if there's going to be purple if it's going to be you know Just about selling the next guy's dating coaching or selling the next guy's you know programming I I really want you know a lot of people and I'll say this for the record right now because we're on a live podcast here, you know live Yes, this is live I'm gonna I'm gonna say this is that I don't do this for a fucking living. Okay. I don't I'm I work in the liquor industry. Okay I I go and I have a life outside of these four walls in here and I write books because I'm passionate about it And when I first wrote the first book and I put it out as a self-publishing, you know Still a fiasco to this day really But when I was doing that it was with the intent of collecting all of this knowledge that people were telling me that I needed to collect and codify and put it out there And I'm glad it's sort of become the red pill, you know Bible for now because I Ended up being the book that I wanted to read that I couldn't find anywhere else And so I started writing it and you know, I kind of got into it But you have to understand that I don't monetize my site. I've never monetized my site Um people keep saying you need to monetize your site. You're you're missing out on so much money I'm like, no, I don't want to do that. You need your own channel. You need your own channel Yeah, exactly. You need your own YouTube channel. I don't I don't you need your own patreon. I don't need that I make before I even started all of this. I made quite quite a bit of money. I'm good with that All right, I do this because I feel like there's a necessity for it and that money in this anyway. Yeah, really Um, but I want to have money sell makeup tutorials. Well, you know, and I tell guys this all the time I says I always push the printed version of the book because I want guys to Discuss it and they want to have a you know A chat about or somebody sees this is what they what's the rational mail? I want them to have that in your face kind of exchange and engagement And I make the least amount of royalties on my book On the the printed version of my book But that's the one that I push the most because I think that that has the most interpersonal intercommunication You know value value one or more serious note Kind of dark, but it's very hard to ban a physical book unless you're going to burn it Kick it out bookstores, which is a real possibility About doing that to you last month there. Rollo No, what's funny is like I my my books are only available through amazon and then ebay second hand if people want to buy them off the ebay Um sooner or later. I'm going to have a hardback version. I'm going through barns and nobles So maybe you'll see it on barns and noble Bookshelf assuming they don't go bankrupt before that happens Until an employee cracks it open starts reading it right exactly Well, it's the same thing that happened with milo's book, you know, they they didn't want to keep it on the shelves They just wanted to say well, you can order it special order and we'll get it for you Which you could just do from amazon anyway But anyway, I was just gonna say is that as far as a purple pill goes and as far as Medusa goes. Yeah, I mean I could I I could see that and I thought Basically, if he's not seeing it and the rest of these guys aren't seeing it It's like this big, you know Manipulative swindle is this really something that I wanted to be a part of and so I think I told you this I said that right there should show you the Quality of the people that you have as your speakers And I mean this is a cut on anybody in particular. I'm just saying that if she was able to Put it past all these guys who are out there What does that say about them? What does that say about the nine years of the convention that you did before? Before I came along, you know before we change things out to your point rollo I would say this You've pointed out that the purple pill is very toxic and very dangerous I would also say that the convention being so Intensively purple pill was very fertile breeding ground for a cluster b and for a woman who was really dedicated to manipulation like that So it was really like we set the stage and then eventually she just came along On a personal level I did that and then with the company Unfortunately, well one thing that women like that will do and women in general too I mean we're going to talk about trad tots one time and I think you know ruche probably picked up that one picked up that ball and ran with it but Women will find ways to create niche Sexual marketplaces So if you have gamer girls or nerd girls or cosplay girls all of that sprang up because those girls could not compete in a more general Mainstream sexual marketplace. You're not going to see them at the clubs, but their clubs ended up being like comic con They're bitching about trad con exactly and and it's like first of all Why are you why are you arguing with these children and second of all you have to yeah? He hasn't understood he doesn't understand yet that women will create their own niche marketplaces and that's what Medusa did for you guys and that's what I see happen in the the traditional conservative arena right now and Guys for the most part eat it up because of the thirsty Yeah, uh, carl did you want to comment on cluster B disorders and the previous discussion we just said? Yeah, I did because actually we met for the first time because I wrote a long series on various cluster B disorders and how they manifest in women And when I first saw the video, I think Rallo is referring to my radar went off and I have a very tuned radar because I've been on more crazy bitches than tramp stamps But the thing that happens with it Imagine a guy who's never gotten laid before and he goes on the red pill reddit He finds Rallo's books or he buys one of bruce's books And he goes out and he starts applying this and here comes this chick who's hotter than any chick he's ever fucked before and she's receptive to it And this tells him. Oh what I've been doing is working. This is all me But in reality, she just latches on to the fact that he's doing something and this is not something he's used to And she's reinforcing that behavior in him as a control mechanism And that makes him double down on it because he sees he thinks it's working But in reality, she's running a long-term confidence scheme on him because that's all it is. It's a confidence game He puts her on the pedestal He views any feedback he gets from her as a validation of himself Which causes him to repeat the behavior towards her and slowly she'll Whittle it down or until she has complete control over Don avenge you want to hop in on that too? Forgot to unmute buddy. We're got there. There we go. Got it. Uh, just real quick. I was um with regards to this whole Medusa situation. I don't know anything about it. Um, I've actually I've got a consult at the top of the hour But after that I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna definitely check that out I think that there is tremendous value in telling your viewership about your failures And like I've had like I've had epic epic failures. Man. I fell in love with a girl who Anyway, I have some I have some epic epic failures But I think that when people see that because rola you weren't you haven't always been good with women carlos anthony You know right? I mean listen, we weren't we didn't come out of the womb with all this red pill awareness and this red pill knowledge A lot of lessons can be taught true enough But most of them have to be learned and this is why men who go out men who read about the red pill They learn they they teach themselves the red pill, but they you don't learn it until you actually go out there So I think I think there's I think there's a lot of value when it comes to When it comes to knowing that hey, we as men we also have weaknesses too, but the red pill I think is is an essence learning to Learning to mitigate those weaknesses accentuating Accentuating your strengths, you know having your strengths play to you as far as i'm concerned the purple pill is a compromise The purple pill is for is for men who have red pill awareness Who are just too scared to go? They're just too scared to go red pill. They're they're scared to go all the way They're worried about failure and maybe getting outed You know coming out of the closet as red pill as they as they like to call it I think that I mean this is this is how it is.   That's exactly right That's really you wanted to happen. Well, I was gonna say is I mean this sort of opens up the the purple pill discussion here I have written quite a bit about purple pill guys mostly from the Mostly from the aspect of guys, you know using this Ideology as some sort of advancement Of the red pill as if they can learn red pill and then be nice guys You know, they can go and you know, I know all this red pill stuff But I still want to make my blue pill idealisms come true. So And and you should too and so here's a here's life coaching Opportunity for you know for guys to go and learn to be the nice the good kind of red pill And I've written quite a bit about this where it's like once A guy becomes red pill or once a woman really Understands that the guy gets it then she throws the morality on him.  You know this red pill stuff. It's true. We're not denying it Now it's your responsibility to use it ethically And I think that that's that's one part of the whole the whole purple pill side of things is trying to say Well, you should use this ethically well that those ethics and that morality and everything that proceeds from that is all blue pill And it is all entirely initiated and Serves the feminine imperative. These are mechanisms to shut down red pill awareness Right, and then so the other thing I was going to say is that when it comes to purple pill Let's not even let's not even talk about the guys who are life coaches just yet But what I see the purple pill is I see these guys who get cut away from the blue pill And they learn about red pill and they accept it for the for the you know, a larger degree And They get to the point where they can't go all the way just like what donovan was saying They they can't quite commit entirely over to it because they're afraid that they're going to end up, you know being permanent assholes or they think they're going to be They're going to be turn themselves into men who resent women so much because they've all heard about this, of course You know because red pills are all about hate and it's all about anger and everything It has nothing to do with that is truthful anger. You know, I can tell you right now If you think it's truthful anger, there's a lot more to it that you're not getting so what I was gonna say is that Purple pill is basically these guys trying to capture that blue pill idealism with red pill Yes, red pill awareness and so they want to go back to that and they never want to cross that abyss like the abyss We were just talking about a little bit and you know You know Ryan wants to call it a narcissism. Okay, I'll accept that I'll accept that as an answer And but I you know, I think a lot of guys end up becoming very nihilistic And they don't see anything hopeful for themselves and I keep telling them I said look There's a there's so much more hope on on the side and on red pill awareness than there is in You know keeping yourself deluded or sticking your head back in the sand and living in denial about that And that's one of the reasons I have a real problem with purple pill guys is because they find reasons To stick their heads back in the sand they find reasons to go into denial So like I said the guys that I talk about Um, if I'm talking about Tucker max is a great example of this and you look at the stuff he wrote when he was single And you know, I hope they serve beer and hell and everybody followed him all through their college years And thought he was great and then suddenly he goes and he realizes he can't make a living at this anymore And he has to go on national tv and renounce himself as this This uh player and this pickup artist and and everything and oh, I just didn't see the light I'm sorry. I was so manipulative of women and I saw all this stuff I said never mind about that now I'm a relationship guru and I'm going to tell you how to You know how to get into a healthy relationship and what's happened is he's gotten married and how to kid in that time And so his incentive is life back I don't know man. I think she was kind of like a bodybuilder or something like But she was but what if you I have a um, I have a post on my site called the purple pill And I I sort of did this comparison and what it is is it's if you look at Uh, Tucker max's first book. It's a picture of him and some random blonde chick on the cover with her name Or with her face completely blanked out and it says your name here on it That was the cover of his first book the cover of his most recent book It shows himself his little baby, you know, kid I don't know what it was and his wife and his face is the one that is blanked out And it's it's called mating or mate or something like that but that pretty much You know encapsulates the transition from going red pill to back sliding into Uh red to purple pill, but what should it really blue pill if you think about it Now here's a question, uh open to rollo first and then the whole floor with anybody wants to get into it How does this compare this kind of uh, you know, disingenuous transition for Tucker max from, you know Just slaying pussy left and right to oh, I see the light. Oh, and now I'm going to be all this nice guy It reminds me a lot and how does it compare to women hitting the wall the epiphany phase hitting the wall and all of a sudden The party years are in the past. I've found myself I'm going to go like an a little e-price slut tour or whatever they're going to do now Like does that is there a comparison there to be made? I I think so in a way. Um How a guy comes to that transition Is really what's debatable Does the guy coming to that transition? From a position of red pill awareness or is he doing it just because you know He knew a lot of game and he happened to knock up the wrong girl And he has a lot of money because he's a guru or he's a life coach or he's an rsd instructor or whatever And now suddenly his his tune has it has to change it has to change because What he was selling before is no longer hot when the guy is married with a kid And you know people always ask me that too. They say well, you know, uh, roly you're married You have a kid. I'm like, yeah, but you gotta understand that I was red pill while I was married You know, it's not like I I got red pill and then I went. Oh, I'm gonna get married now Um All of the stuff that I've everything I've written has been From after my, you know, rock star party years when I was, you know, 20 to 26 27 um, and you know, so I can I can sort of relate to that but Um getting into a position. I think there's a lot of guys A good example and I hate to use this because I don't want to see anything bad about him right now But like ruche is a good example of this right now because ruche was very much red pill and he wrote layguides left and right and Um decided that at some point he didn't want to do that anymore whether it was unprofitable for him or You know, maybe he was having a personal change, you know change in his life I don't know but it turns out that two years ago He happened to get into to what I think is his first serious long-term relationship Okay, and so he gets into that and what is what happens his narrative changes now He's all about the political stuff now. He's all about the spiritual stuff now He's all about uh to a lesser extent, you know, I mean he was, you know Hitting on evolution because he was reading a lot of religion at the time So he had to be anti-revolution he goes through this phase where he's you know touching on all these bases And then now recently he's broken up with his girlfriend I think he's probably about six months to a year afterwards and now he's going back to Being red pill and that's what his show is about right now. It's a he's helping guys. I'm glad for him Like that's I said I don't want to say anything bad about him because he's finally sort of come back to the fold You know, he's he's starting to help dudes from a red pill perspective and you know And owning his his rejection with this girl that he thought he was going to end up marrying And so that is definite I have this this post called the script and there's a script for guys who are these incorrigible bachelors They're the Tucker maxes of their time and this is this is something that's been going on since Shakespeare's time Okay This is guys I'm going to be a bachelor for life and I'm never going to get married because this is the life for me and yada yada yada And then suddenly they meet the one they make the girl that contain them. It's like the beauty and the beast thing You know, it's like the guy's a horrible beast until this one special snowflake comes along and she she turns him around and he's never known love before until he has Uh gotten in touch with her and she solves all of his problems and she's you know tames the savage beast and Now he goes from being red pill You know player To being a guy who wants to tell everybody how they ought to be living their lives how they should have been doing this all along Instead of Understanding that as soon as that girl that's why I say I got guys get really pissed off at me for this But they I always say that there's no such thing as a quality woman. There's only women Okay, there are good. There are good women and there are bad women.   Okay, they don't know This is not something that they you know, I think of it. It's it's there It's their internalized Reflexive understanding because that is what has been a part of the human race for a hundred thousand years Got to pause you donovan's got to hop off in a minute donovan. You want to get in point? Yeah, just um What rola was talking about like women aren't smart, right?  I'm myself included man. Like I get blinded by this stuff all the time. So women aren't This is how it works, man. Women aren't smart. They're just women. This is just how they this is how they are Um, a woman is only as good as the man. She's with just like rola just said it's not I found a good woman, you know, you found a canvas that's probably a little bit more willing than another Women come up with women come from all walks of life And a woman's upbringing has a lot to do with whether or not she's ready to be a quality woman or not There are many women out there who will never ever be quality women But if a woman is a quality woman, it's not on her own Listen, man, men are made women are born. This is how this works in order And yes, if you understand this for a man to be attractive to women, we have to be proactive We have to lift weights get our financial house in order. We have to learn what makes women tick We have to have backbone. We have to make ourselves into men All a woman has to do to be considered a quality woman is to refrain from certain activities And there are only two activities. They have to refrain from don't eat.  That's it If you it honestly if you stop eating and stop taking random dicks, you are automatically a quality woman That's this is the masculine burden and I'm glad that we have this burden But the final thing that I want to say here is and by the way, the purple pill subreddit invites, uh, it welcomes men It invites men and women so already they're they're already fucking cancer. Why did you bring that up?  I'm about to hit the wall or I hit the wall time to get serious Women decide to get serious about relationships because they need to time is running out When men decide to play it straight is because we want to the reason we renounce the player lifestyle Is because we're tired of the same rinse and repeat negative. You got a tattoo.  We listen no matter what we talk about here in the red pill We all want something we all want a woman. We have a deeper connection with other than just sex So uh, so on that note guys, I'm gonna go ahead and hop off once again guys It was great being with you guys My thanks to the audience thanks aj for bringing me on man. Appreciate it. Thanks for helping on man. Appreciate it Take care Always fun to chat with you. Take care So speaking of the purple pill guys Let's better define it before continuing on The way some of the way I think people see it is they see it as a synthesis or combination of competing ideas or conflicting ideas Being red pill ideas and blue pill ideas Is that accurate or is it more accurate to say that it's more like bipolar disorder? Like a constant switching between two ideas like oil and water that just don't mix Christopher Hitchens has a great book on this life of a contrarian And I can't remember he puts it all wordy the way he does but You talk about a light bulb the heat and like oh, you don't want to be too hot like don't be too angry. Don't be too pissed off Well, that's the problem is that most light comes from heat And it's a very he put it way more eloquently than I can but yeah, no it's it's where you just try to water everything down and meet in the middle and there is Between truth and lies. There is no middle ground And that's the only difference is purple pill are the ones that try to temper the truth with more palatability Which is ridiculous. So all you're saying is you want to feel better It's very dangerous too. Yeah. Well, I look at it. I look at it in this in these terms. Okay is there's the purple pill is meant to be sort of this amalgam or this mixing of blue pill A bit of blue pill with a bit of red pill What parts are you trying to mix? Because whenever I analyze these guys who want to tell me well, you know, uh, here's why red pill is wrong x y and z and Because it's wrong these parts of blue pill are are you know that you learned are have more Validity than you thought they did and I will tell you right now.   They say it's there But they don't think that is that it's impactful and the reason they say that is because they want Really desperately want parts of their blue pill idealism that they've been taught since the time they were five years old To be true. They want that they want that uh, perfect girl Like when I a good example of this is when I say um Men and women have differing concepts of love. Okay men see love Idealistically and women see love in an opportunistic fashion because hypergamy pushes them into Being more opportunistic. I don't mean that in a bad way Opportunism, you know, women's opportunism when it comes to hypergamy Has been something that has benefited the human race up to this point, but it can be pretty fucked Okay, it can be very unethical and very immoral, which is why we try to control for hypergamy But by my saying that there are two different concepts of love what I'm saying is that Is this is a red pill idea that there are two different concepts of love and they're unique to either or the sexist Whereas a blue pill idea says no, no, no There's only one and I hope that I can find a woman who loves me as much as I love her, you know And it's this disney-esque Mutual understanding of what love is between the sexes I never said that men and women cannot love each other They can they do and the best time when when that comes together. I'm going to use my myself and my wife I understand her concept of love. She understands my concept of love and more importantly I understand my own concept of love and I understand the limitations of what can what it can and cannot be With a woman who I've spent 21 years with right now and had a great I've had a great time. I love my wife. Don't everybody says. Oh, you must have a problem with his wife. No Not at all It sounds like the blue pill is uh, it's like a forced homogenization of two concepts of love That you're all you're doing all you're doing is specifying it to each biology Actually, just totally that's that's one that's one example of many like they want to go back to that because the idea of a mutual concept of love is Very appealing and very comforting. In fact, all of the stuff that I would say purple pill guys want to re-embrace Is Stuff that is so comforting to them that they cannot let it go. It's like a safety blanket They don't want to let go that they Now I always say they don't want to look across the abyss But what they really won't don't want to do is they don't want to let go of the safety blanket that the Blue pill represents because it means they're going to have to recreate themselves It means that they're going to have to at least in their mind in their personalities They're going to have to zero themselves out and they're going to have to rebuild from scratch and when you get a guy who has Lived his entire life in the blue pill and suddenly he becomes red pill aware What's he going to want to do rebuild himself in a red pill way? Or is he going to want to try to find ways to make his old blue pill idealism's work for him? and I really think that that's where Where I I separate the most from purple pill guys And it's because they'll get married just like we were talking about I always say 90% of these guys either are in a long-term relationship Or they were married and it's very very few purple pill guys Aren't married or aren't in a long-term relationship And I think that what they're trying to do is they're trying to justify and legitimize and validate their Relationship with their wives or their girlfriends and sort of make it palatable to the girl Okay, so if you got a guy like Tucker max is a good one, but there's a lot of other examples. I could use mark manston Mark manston. Todd valentine is another one all the guys who all the guys who want to say that Rolo's work is truthful anger all of these dudes fit the same fucking profile and that profile is they were players Or they were instructors or they were you know game practitioners who either got a woman pregnant accidentally or Met the one because they remember they never really let go of all those blue pill idealizations They met the one and now they've got a force fit all of that stuff all that game ideology into their Their relationship and they have to make it work. So the only thing they can do at that point is you know Because they can't go out to the clubs anymore They've got a kid waiting at home or if they do if they make a living off of doing that It's can only be to a certain extent Or if they do that it's their job But if you look at guys like i'm just going to throw out rsd here for a second if you look at rsd rsd right now Has changed their tune. There's a lot of good old stuff on there I'm not i'm not bad mouthing anybody in particular, but they have gone from a narrative of game and infield videos and really helping guys out to This power of positive thinking and they've changed the the dynamic of it. It's no longer it's no longer about You know teaching guys to to get laid. It's how guys can live this, you know positive You know successful. It's like it's like the zig-ziggler tony robbins kind of message now Well with reverend reverend julian. I mean, why not, you know, every exactly And it's it's this hippie-dippy new age idea that you know We're all friends and it's all good and nobody's out to get you and i'm like i'm like okay fine But nobody's saying they're going they're out to get you the problem that they have right now Particularly purple pill guys the biggest problem that they have with me is that I am out there telling guys what's up I'm telling guys here's in no uncertain terms. Here are the here's the definition of hypergamy Here's the definition of what women are doing. Here's how it translates from the Personal level all the way up to the political level and i'm saying i'm not saying it's right or wrong You guys can make that that decision I I think I got a good idea of what you're gonna say because I think you know, I see how this works out I'm not trying to make anybody paranoid. I'm not even saying it should make you angry I'm just saying this is how it is but by me doing that it goes counter to this positive thinking Uh, you know personal improvement mantra that they're selling, you know $3,000 seminars to and and so there's that element of it right there because if i'm out there putting this truth out there And it goes counter to what it is that they're trying to to sell.  It's always been the same Same criticism. It's always oh, it's truthful angles. Well, yeah, it's truthful And yeah, you will get angry because that's a part of the phase But they never see anything past that because if they did then they would have to Recognize that, you know, what I write Saves lives they'd have to recognize that Guys see the red pill as a safety net for themselves to go out and try things and not to be worried about getting zeroed out because they're now All of their Idealism is based in a red pill paradigm and not in a blue pill paradigm anymore. So for me to say that it's dangerous to them It's dangerous to their revenue. It's dangerous for me to say no, I disagree with that And let me tell you why you're gonna get you're not only are you gonna get raked over the coals You're teaching other guys to get raked over the coals at a later time Carl, did you want to add to that? Well, I just thought about the distinction between the red pill and the purple pill and the best analogy I can come up with is in genderomics, I describe a man as a company And a big problem that many companies have is they have a way that they make money Which is their core business and they have a lot of what they call corporate social responsibility like diversity initiatives training schooling etc and You have to strike a balance between those two because If your focus goes away from the way your company makes money Over to the corporate social responsibility like with the delta nra thing last week You actually hurt your core business through your focus on something that's not your core business And that's the problem with the purple pill. It's Saying that your core business, which should be the red pill Is sidelined with this corporate social responsibility bit, which is the blue pill And we're trying to balance these two against each other But the reality is sooner or later one will Get more focused than the other, which is usually the one that makes you feel good Which is this corporate social responsibility if you're exporting weapons to libya, you're not going to feel good about Being a war profiteer, but you're going to feel good about the meals you're sending out to inner city schools So you're going to put more resources into that And the best I think bill marr had a joke years ago that kind of highlights this because he read a sex therapist who said couples should focus on their mutual sexual fantasies and he responded that There is no such thing yours bore us and ours offend you There is no such thing as A sexual scenario where a woman is being chased by a dragon a man kills the dragon and then Tenderly makes love to her in a field of roses and then comes on her face It's gonna also just sort of Dovetail into what what carl saying here is that and anthony you already know that this this is no secret between us But I I have really strong reservations about socrates because I really think that a lot of his stuff sort of traverses over into The purple pill and the reason I say that is because you know, he proudly announces that you know, he has more Female readers than he has male readers. I say that's that's not a good sign man And I think that when guys go from that red pill dynamic to wanting to appeal to to women In you know, in particular I think that you're going to water down your message You're you're not going to be as honest as you probably should be because you're trying to to cater to women's Uh women's sensibilities now the guy who really did this was apple k for married man sex life and the married man sex life Forums and I I can give him shit because I used to I used to talk with him when he just had a blog And he didn't have a book and he didn't have a a forum or anything, but he essentially Had a pretty red pill message for for married men with his married man primer his his first book I thought it was great Then he comes out with the Mindful attraction plan for men and you can see the influence of his wife because now his wife is part of the The coaching team and he's allowed women to pretty much take over his forums And you you see this influence of you know, women's sensibilities and you know women love The parts of the red pill That serve them best if they want a a really masculine guy or they you know, they're looking for the right guy They're looking for these you know That's why red pill for for women has become such a niche marketplace because the guys there are attractive to them They are these guys who are interested in self and self-improvement They're interested in understanding, you know, the truth about intersexual dynamics and they want to get at that and they want to be You know, uh for the most part want to be masculine guys who are going to be dominant and who are going to take over the You know, they're going to be like guys that these women are not used to seeing they're not used to Being around and attracted to and so consequently what they do is they insert themselves into these forums And they completely change the entire dynamic and that's one of the reasons why married man sex life forms are gone now Because it had become such a bitch fest for these guys' wives You know that uh that had Involved themselves in their man's recon red pill reconstruction, which is in no way authentic And that's one of the reasons why it's gone But you have this influence is the you know, this this idea that you have to cater to women's Sensibilities and just on a final note here I just want to say that one of the reasons that I don't do this for a living Is because it would remove me from my element. I don't want to ever have to depend On being rolo tomasi for my income. Okay. I don't want to ever have to worry about Uh, you know selling x amount of books or whatever.  It's a nice side gig. Okay, but I never want to be dependent on it Because the moment I am dependent on it is the moment I would start having to cater to my reader's Sensibilities, I need to tell people what they don't want to hear I need to tell them stuff that's going to piss them off It's going to kick them in their ass and that's going to challenge Their ego investments that they've had that the blue pill is put into them for a very very long time And I can't do that if I'm trying to hold their hands and trying to play patsey and saying yes The red pill will make you angry, but it's okay because in the end you're going to be able to uh Achieve these blue pill ideals and you're going to live happily ever after with your wife Who's going to love you and want to fuck you like a porn star and be a great mother to your kids And it's just yeah exactly and it's it's what it's what's called the feel good red pill right now And I'm never going to do that and I never want to be in that position to have to do that I don't think you would have to necessarily but you would be confronted with the choice And the consequence has to either choice to be pretty severe And I think I think in my opinion, that's what uh rsd is facing and they're failing to make a good choice And i'm saying that openly and as as a ceo and founder of the 21 studios like I think they I think you know tyler and all these guys are very familiar with your work They've talked about it openly at some point snow for a while. I talk to oh and a lot Yeah, they they know They have an idea I think of what direction they could take their company and they're not they're taking it instead in the pop thinking Power positive thinking everything's positive. Everybody gets along Because it makes them more money And then look at this I mean the last time we were talking with two two shows ago We were talking about jordan peterson and everything and how there's this there's this generation of lost boys out there Who want some kind of direction? Okay? They want to have somebody tell them to clean up their room They want somebody to say, you know, suddenly this is a radical idea right now because this generation never had positive masculine dominant fathers to kick them in the ass and teach them discipline and teach them how to come back From defeat and teach them all of these conventionally masculine traits and skills We don't have that anymore But we do have a generation of kids who are happy to jerk off the porn smoke pot and order pizza You know or whatever they have to do and not have to really do anything and again, I understand the The incentives behind that are then the lack of incentives to do anything more than that But it doesn't eliminate it doesn't eliminate the fact that we have a very large Group of boys and men in this country and even just young men even men under just under 30 Are still this sort of lost generation and they're looking for somebody to to You know tell them the truth and tell them where that where to go and give them some kind of direction So they look for a guy like tony robbins. They look for a guy like like That's okay like peterson and they look for yeah like they're looking for or they look for somebody like rola tomasi The rsd guys too and the rsd guys and rsd guys know this. That's why when you see all of their Their videos these days. It's like a pep rally.  I mean really what's rsd selling that that peterson isn't peterson is telling me, you know get get your act together and Make your bed and and pretty much selling the same thing that tony robbins is selling and selling or it's I should say The product is the same so peterson selling his thing or tony robbins selling his thing rsd selling his thing these purple pill life coaches who've decided that You know the the most profitable way to go is to teach these guys to say look Here's some red pill stuff But it'll help you be a better person and that better person is who the blue pill told you to be when you are five Fucking years old. Well, I loved um chris shepherd is uh, he's an instructor at love systems formerly mystery method And I believe actually he's one of the people running Uh love systems at this point like actually has command over what they do and we you've seen them on twitter You've gone back and forth with them as of I He actually looked at your blog and looked at your posts and ideas on hypergamy He actually seemed to look at them And his response to hypergamy In your sense and the entire red pill was trust Like this the simplistic Childish blue pill bullshit It I was I was appalled. I have talked to this guy for chris shepherd. I was just fucking appalled at like the level of like Just no depth to it Like didn't even take the time Like has the awareness has the game experience has banged the chicks has been an instructor for years and years and years And his only response to the to the issue of hypergamy is Find a good trust It's like and this guy's selling workshops for five thousand dollars a whack and stuff like that Yeah, it's insane Good I was like it's funny you mentioned that because we were talking about the mindful action plan before and I think it's a perfect Metaphor for this entire thing. It used to be called the male action plan So they literally took mail Out of the red pill and it ties into the purple pill You never notice it's always about tempering it. It's meeting in the middle It's never actually like well, we'll take half of your things half of mine. I'll temper mine You temper yours.   We were when we were 21 That's a part of life, but it doesn't mean you turn into a giant pussy And it's that's supposed to show you yeah, that's the male problem. It's not about direction. It's about frame They can make their own direction, but they don't even try Well earlier on we were talking about how you know Is there a point where guys have a wall where they want to settle down and have kids and and i would say that For most guys there is a desire to see their own kids and to have their own kids In fact, i've written a post called uh the war on paternity right now and how just from a bio law an evo bio Perspective how important paternity is for guys. So if it's something that's part of our mental firmware I would definitely say that there is definitely something as part of guys that wants to have that one on one You know, even if it's just temporary we want to have that one on one Uh relationship with a woman and if you can make that last for a lifetime great, you know I mean here. I am married for 21 years. I'm not going to tell you not to get married But I will tell you not to get married from the perspective of that You shouldn't get married because of all the risks and everything that goes along with it today's modern marriage I can't I cannot endorse modern marriage today because the risks are just too high And you know what there's generations of actually two or three generations of guys who agree with me That's why we have this war or this uh boycotting marriage or this uh men on strike kind of thing the sex Divorce of the new lung cancer. Do you remember that everybody used to know somebody who died from smoking? Now it's everybody knows somebody who died from divorce, right? Well, and so what happens then is like, okay, so how do you deal with that from a rep perspective? How do you say well, um, I know that i'm gonna want kids I know i'm gonna want to have a wife at some point even if the risks are high I want kids bad enough that i'm willing to take that risk Well, there's ways to mitigate that there's ways to to protect yourself before you get into that long-term relationship Okay, first of those is you need to be 100 Red pill aware you need to have that internalized as part of who you are And you need to have the most dominant frame that you possibly can before you go into the relationship You need to give up on all of that, uh, blue pill idealistic hope and you need to replace that with a more, uh Self-centered self important red pill paradigm goals and up, you know Set out goals and set out ambitions that you want to achieve for yourself That are realistically possible within a red pill context have that for yourself as well Understand and accept the fact that you are going to get into a position where you will likely lose half of your Shit, you know and you might lose all of your kids. Yeah Well, you're I mean, it's dangerous and we all we talk about this all the time on the married red pill Just how dangerous that is But if your only option to have kids and to have a good healthy family is to have a wife At least go in with your eyes open and understanding what you've got because if you look at these guys If you look at what are the commonalities between tucker max mark manson, uh, this guy shepherd Um, uh, evan mark cats, uh, all these guys Simplen. Yeah, rst. Todd, uh Yeah, well, you know, I mean now RSD Todd is now You know at least before got kicked I shouldn't call him rsd. Todd anymore because you got kicked out rsd because he got into some sort of fight with papa But he's no longer part of that. But what is he what is he selling now? He's selling a program on how to get a girlfriend and what this is is it's literally a blueprint of what I outlined in dream girls And children with dynamite. He's giving dynamite to kids because they don't know what to expect They he's just showing you here's how you get a great girlfriend, right? But at the end of that if you're not red pill aware, you're gonna end up like mystery Suicidal because you can't make your blue pill dreams a reality and I think that selling that to guys especially a generation of guys who are desperately looking for this stuff and they want that they want that Their loneliness and their their their want to to be in a relationship is sort of like a fat woman wanting a magic pill To make her skinny again.  He's just a popular youtuber and former rsd instructor That's the quality of advice that guys will pay money for is basically, you know, some of your blog posts put into a product But compare that to what they see in the mainstream your average guy He sees cnn promoting cuckolding as an improvement to your like literal Evo bio cuckolding as an improvement to your fucking relationship Yeah, and that was how far that's how far the environment has fallen for advice and And that's all and that's only one of many Articles written about that. I was talking about that with ham pack Campbell's show We were talking about open cuckoldry, which you know, we've gone we've progressed from open hypergamy all the way to open Cuckoldry and again if you are A purple pill life coach you can't help but want to write For someone, you know, you're not trying to tell them what they need to hear You're telling them what they want to hear because that is what's going to sell your seminars and sell your books and sell your your client some time to to do that, I'm not I'm I gotta make a distinction here because I still get I can get behind guys Like goldman or I can get behind guys like christian mcqueen because I know these dudes and I know that they're red pill And I know what they're about and I know that they're I know what their their gig is and I know I know what their Their incentives are but So I have to make a distinction between those guys and like say but the mark manson or the evan mark cats are these guys and They all follow the same template. They all follow the same commonalities. They all have the same like what you're talking about What's about comfort? They all have these preak these blue pill preconceptions. No, it's all about it's all about trust role It's false. Yeah, well and that's funny. You should say that because like what is that? That's negotiation. You're negotiating the desire with that woman It's like even even even Peterson even Dr. Peterson is talking about. Oh, you need to negotiate things with your wife and you need to do this It's like and then you'll have a happy relationship And I'm just a dominant hierarchies have existed for 300 million years. Yeah, so he ends up I know he ends up contradicting himself in those But uh, it's like there's it follows that plan and you're forget who said it But there's maybe maybe carl knows this is famous quote of this guy is that you you cannot teach somebody You know a lesson if their Revenue depends on them not learning that lesson. I forget who said that but Yeah, it's very simple. You're not going to teach these guys anything because they're Their livelihood is invested in other people not getting it Yeah, and I think that's why roller you mentioned very explicitly when you uh, Recently we're talking about the convention on your blog. I took a pretty big risk a real big risk and Fundamentally, you know, like you mentioned making a u-turn in a lot of ways But even more broadly fundamentally shifting the direction of the convention Towards the red pill. I did take a big risk with that I just I I was willing to do that though because it to me it's it's what's true That what's what matters not uh all the money and stuff like that the company.  I mean we we've needed uh A convention like this. We've needed a summit what I call a red pill summit We've needed that for a long time now and this is at least, you know some Some step towards that and I really I mean you've got some other ideas that you're going to be introducing pretty soon That it will be made public and I'm not going to reveal those at this point But um, there's a lot of things that you are talking about that that I could certainly get on board with I'm you know A lot of like I keep telling guys is I'm not going to do this for a living I don't have any real interest to do in this for a living But I will say that I would definitely want to be a part of whatever you have, you know coming up Thank you. Thank you.   It's going to trigger the shit out of people And they need they need to be triggered to I still think it needs to you know, I would love to have I mean if I'm already helping you, you know sort of figure out who the next speakers are going to be but um, I think that uh, We need to have a good depth and breadth because like what we're talking about in the in the beginning of this show was about how different Applications of different people's stories and different people's experiences and their messages crosses over into sort of this whole Cloth of the red pill so like when I was watching the the videos from From the convention, um, you know, there's stuff in there like I would go What am I ever going to need this for but like something that like say christian or or Goldman or ryan or something they might say something and then that might cross over into something I've said And written about and then that might trigger something in someone else To say well, I got it.  Oh, yeah I've called her for years. It's the cross contamination or sex between ideas of what's what's happening cross pollination, man Yeah, and it's uh, and the other thing is and I found this out and I kind of wanted to bring this up with you but Just because I don't agree with the guy doesn't mean you shouldn't have him there because I think that that also provides A counterbalance to say, okay.  That's how we grow things. I've had there are many many That I've been wrong about that guys have corrected me on and I go, yeah, you know, you're right I need to I need to go revise that in my personal in my personal opinion guys, I think there is a difference between purple pill Uh, maybe not coaches, but just purple pill individuals and purple pill profiteers And the difference is like in 10 the purple pill profiteers I think have a lot more awareness Not only of why are they wrong, but they're willing to leverage that to make money and that to me is sick If someone's purple pill and they genuinely believe in what they believe and it's a purple pill idea I don't have a huge problem with that because like you're saying it brings discourse discussion and debate Which if both people are honest then you know rationality, I think will win out in a long enough time span But when you involve like money and like this hunger for it and dependent like a dependency on it like an addiction I think that's what you guys are really are when your next meal is coming from the paycheck of your your Blue pill life coaching business then yeah, you don't have really any incentive to do anything otherwise and I think that The guys who are the profiteers are playing on this This insecurity that guys have when they're crossing over and they're unplugging from You know from being blue pill to being red pill and then like they get angry or they get upset because of something that I had said And so these guys jump in they go. Oh, no, no, no, no. Rollo. He's he's great But he's wrong about this and let me tell you why and then they basically play on the insecurity that would Really benefit a guy to push past If you would just they would just listen to what i'm talking about and really internalize that And make it a part of who they are and learn how to find hope like I said in the red pill paradigm But they never get to that point because the guy says well, uh, they most purple pill coaches They recognize that insecurity in that guy and they recognize that that guy really wants to hang on to his dream girl Idealization he really wants to to you know to make all of his disney dreams come true and these guys go Yeah, these guys say oh, well, he's good But let me tell you why you can still have those blue pill Those blue pill ideals and it never works out.  Who are you gonna listen to?  Well I just found myself thinking a little bit about the blue pill elution versus delusion because I've written about both sides of it And it's one thing if it's like you said if it's a guy who genuinely believes his blue pill perspective or his purple pill perspective But it's another thing if they're Either actively engaging in self-deception or they're having someone else deceive them with malicious intent either Consciously or subconsciously Like if I try to sell snake oil to ryan and say it's 21 year old scotch then That's That's immoral to do If I buy a bottle of whiskey from rollo or rollo told me it's whiskey and I try to sell that to ryan as whiskey And turns out it's naco ill then I can't be held morally liable for believing what rollo told me We can't be friends anymore, man Yeah, it's going to be a problem Oh, who said we were friends to begin with? Oh Burned burned dude the same advice I gave the purple pill there six sticks Only six All right guys, we uh, we don't need to close up immediately, but let's start kind of winding this down What are the closing thoughts on purple pill profiteering specifically? Like guys who are coaches in some respect life coaches dating coaches, whatever the fuck four men That have red pill awareness and deliberately in some way and for some reason water it down and then sell it I mean you can name names like we have we've talked about a number of them Some of which have been speakers like mark manson as a former speaker at the convention Um, I mean, yeah, so you guys closing thoughts on this How dangerous is it what to be aware of why it's why is it bad?  Um I think that I have skin in the game I really do I honestly have skin in the game when it comes to this kind of stuff Especially with what I do as you know in my own business and personal life as well as you know What I've what I've learned for a long time, but my My skin in the game isn't dependent upon a paycheck. Okay, so I don't have to worry about you know, where my next meal is going to come from if all of my books stop selling tomorrow, right? And I think that that puts me in a position to really I don't want to call out these guys but also to to Say it like it is and not have to worry about offending, you know Worry about offending people and so it's like they say, you know, you need to be Was it I think it's talib says you have to be anti fragile. Well, I'm about as anti fragile as I can be right now I don't entirely believe in anti fragility because there's always something that is That your your revenue is going to be dependent upon so like for instance, if I just started Talking if I if I suddenly went purple pill or I suddenly went blue pill and I went on opera and I said Oh, those guys are bullshit. You know, I just completely sold out that the red pill community You know, I would lose a lot of a lot of people, you know I would lose a lot of people and maybe for a temporary gain or maybe for no gain at all But I I think that you have to watch for guys like that.  They're selling you on your insecurities, but they're also Solving those insecurities with their own ideals And I think that if you're at that point And you need somebody like I I'm not above like talking to people on the phone and you know helping them out And that's one of the reasons why when I do that I say, you know what? I'll take your money, but you pay what you want, you know It's it's like a pay what you want kind of thing because that The next guy who can't who needs help from me and he can't pay well that pays it forward for that guy as well So that's why I read that's one way I work at it, but I think that you need to Dissect and look at these guys messages from a red pill perspective. That's one of the reasons. I sort of even came up with Purple pill as a as a designation Because you know people think it's it's an epithet.  No, there's a reason I'm calling you purple pill I'm calling you purple pill because of everything we've just talked about you've but you've gone back to these blue pill ideals And you're selling yourself and other guys On an idealism that you should have killed you should have killed that beta You should have unlearned the blue pill, you know parts that or the blue pill entirely Oh, and you're conditioning and uncanny, you know, do your best to uncondition yourself So when I hear like blue pill life coach is talking about how great oneitis is or finding your soulmate That's I mean that is literally a few of these guys is They're they're they're podcasts and they're they're you know, they're videos on youtube They're saying here's how to get your your one and here's how to find your quality girl and make it last and it's like Christopher has that on the front of his website when you How is that any different than like what dr. Phil is selling or oprah or anything? They're just telling you what sounds right to them, right? It's it's like that's why people love on on Jordan Peterson when he's talking about negotiating desire with your wife and it's like It's like no, I mean this is this is negotiating desire. We've gone through these are some pretty, you know red pill 101 concepts where it's like the The soulmate myth if somebody's telling you the soulmate myth is something that's achievable You're dealing with a guy who is purple pill. Okay. Those are basics so if a guy is trying to go back And reimagine the basics here and you've got a good red pill lens You can pretty much tell if that person is purple pill or not and I also want to leave everybody with this Is that those guys when they go and they try to Re-institute some of these blue pill ideals remember the reason you were going to unlearn them in the first place You're unlearning them because it's dangerous Because all these guys who are putting nooses around their necks and putting a gun in their mouth Are the same guys who believed that they're white. They couldn't live without their wife or they couldn't live without their Their oneitis, you know long-term relationship They believed that to the point where they were going to kill themselves because of it So yes purple pill can be very very dangerous and that's one of the reasons I like to come out against it a little bit Probably more, you know enthusiastically than I I should sometimes but it is dangerous to follow these guys I agree with you and it actually reminds me of things that uh would probably be Maybe a prior or future blog post on carl's blog But the purple pill seems like a very unstable combination of ideas and personality Directions to take I speak from personal experience trying to unknowingly interplaying red pill and blue pill ideas Uh, but also seeing it like you're saying with dating coaches and stuff who I know one in particular one of our speakers Who had a very legitimate cluster B experience But is so purple slash blue pill he refuses to fucking learn from the experience Even though he openly publicly stated he almost killed himself Took himself to the edge of a fucking cliff in Asia somewhere to the point where his friends I'd actually find him and pull him back literally from the ledge of depth So I don't know if carl is the kind of any uh additional commentary on that but it reminds me of like a mental illness Like it's a very it's a very unstable combination of uh Qualities for I I compare it to a mental illness in the first book actually oneitis. Okay. Okay. Yeah Yeah, do you have any input on that I've written a couple of blog posts that kind of cover it but not completely but I I wrote a blog post where I kind of outlined the cluster of symptoms. I just can't remember if I published it or not I have a draft folder in the 600s now Wow But I'll I'll look it up and I'll if I well when I find it I'll make sure I post it just for you Anthony. I'll even title it for Anthony. Okay. Cool.   You can come back whenever you want Honestly, and like Rolo said, it's not a job for us. It's a hobby. It's something we have interest in You don't have to buy it. You don't have to believe it. This is the complete anti sales pitch When you're ready if you're ready come on down the material is all there.   I think that needs to be part of the learning experience for some guys They need to get pissed off and they need to go and try to do things on their own In fact, I I'm always said that I'm not in the business of making Rolo Tomasi clones. I'm in the business of Helping guys make themselves better guys that they want to do it. They're on their own I don't want anybody to say yeah, I'm a Rolo Tomasi guy. I don't want that I want you to say I I made myself because of what I learned from You know from Rolo and from ruche and from Royce and from whoever else, you know And I I think that we also need to be welcoming These guys back instead of like, you know reading in the riot act for for talking shit when they when they decide that they want to come around And that's again, that's part of the red pill being a an open source kind of community I'll tell you right now I've seen attendees and fans of 21 studios in the convention over the past year year and a half do that They were initially in some cases they'll stay that way But in a lot of cases they're not they're getting they were initially very very annoyed or triggered with my change in tune With the convention with the women with the red pill with all these surrounding issues But they stick around because they followed the convention for so long that now they're changing the tune So those guys are welcome back if they're actually willing to make it a legitimate legitimate turnaround I have no problem with that 100% Whether it's an attendee or whatever else or a you know, it's a fan With that said gentlemen, we've been going for about uh, two and a half hours now I wanted to thank all of you guys for hopping on live obviously you carl rollo and ryan and then donovan earlier Everyone tuning in live. We had over a thousand people tune in which is pretty badass. Oh nice That's about 1100 this time pretty sweet And we gotta we also we should also say that we're Now are we official? We've named this the red man group. Are we good with that? I yeah Yeah Because I was I was coming I think by next time we do this I'll have a logo up and we'll we'll actually make this a real I just like we're pulling up like minecraft. Let's play numbers here. That's pretty impressive Another thing too for everyone listening guys We're planning to do this like we have been every other week. So bi-weekly So the next time we do this should be in march. It'll be march, uh, 24th Yeah, stay tuned on march 24th at about the same time 1 p.m. Eastern tune in live And we would also like to get some other guys in too. We want to I want to see if we can probably get, you know Christian and and golden I would love to get ed latimore on here. That'd be awesome Plenty of Plenty of opportunity Everyone thanks for tuning in live I will put in the description links to donovan's channel and everyone else's twitter accounts Blogs websites things like that Appreciate it. Appreciate you guys support especially the super chats. Appreciate that mula mutual denaro Should ain't free Gentlemen, thanks for your time and stay on the line. I'm gonna end the broadcast now. See you guys