So with that said we're going to be looking today at Romans chapter 8 verses 28 to the end of the chapter to verse 39. So I'll begin reading in Romans 8 at verse 28 and I'll read to verse 30 and we'll get into our study developing an introduction bringing a review of some of the things we've seen here in the eighth chapter and then moving through the chapter. So beginning at verse 28 reading to verse 30 Paul writes, and we know that all things work together for good to those who love God to those or the called according to his purpose for whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son that he might be the firstborn among many brethren more over whom he predestined these he also called whom he called these he also justified and whom he justified these he also glorified. Now as we've been going through chapter 8 remember with me that Paul had just written that nature Christians and the Holy Spirit all grown in verse 22 he had said nature groans for the revelation of the sons of God in verse 23 he had said Christians grown as we wait for redemption to be completed and in verse 26 he had said the Holy Spirit groans as he makes intercession on our behalf and so because of this Paul has is giving encouragement he's giving an encouragement we'll see this in a moment he's giving encouragement to believers in other words no matter what they're enduring no matter what they will endure God is working with them and no matter how it may appear God is in and remains in total control now he's already been alluding to troubles in the believer's life including himself his own life he had said in chapter 8 verse 18 I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us and so he spoke concerning troubles afflictions problems sufferings and persecutions and afflictions he's saying are part of the walk that we have with the Lord so believers including himself are not excluded from these kinds of things Peter says it like this in 1 Peter chapter 4 verse 12 when the apostle Peter was writing he said beloved do not think it's strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you as though some strange thing happened to you so when he said do not think it's strange that word strange speaks of being startled don't be startled by so don't think it to be strange concerning the fiery trial that is trying you as though some strange use the word strange again but this time it meant unusual so don't think it's strange don't be startled concerning the fiery trial which is to try you as though some strange or some unusual thing happened to you in other words trials afflictions persecutions difficulties are just part of being alive it's just part of being a believer it's just part of life itself you see when enduring those kinds of things it is easy to lose hope that's why he said that believers are to remain faithful trusting in the Lord and so as he's been developing this Paul is now giving a deeper word of encouragement and he does so in verse 28 he begins there and this is what he says again verse 28 we know that all things work together for good to those who love God to those who are the called according to his purpose in spite of how it may appear at the moment where you can know one thing God is at work you know there are advantages to being a Christian for a long time I've been a Christian for a while now a long time comparatively I've been a Christian since 1970 I'm going on 53 years 53 years of walking with the Lord and you know that that there's advantage to that there's an advantage to growing older in Christ mellowing out in Jesus if you will and I've shared this I was sharing this recently with uh with a younger member of the body of Christ here I was sharing that just this recent just recently and I said just that I said there's a good thing getting older is a good thing and I said let me tell you why because when you're younger as I have been you think that things have to change right now or they never will I said the fact of the matter is is that you give it time and everything works out for the good you have to give it time I think that sometimes we can be anxious we want things done now we want changes now we want to be delivered now and sometimes the work that God is doing in us is going to take a little bit of time and so it's better to remain still awaiting the Lord to do his work than it is to be moving around and hindering it when I was 14 I got my appendix removed I was there laying on that operating table they had given me some uh you know anesthesia and as I was laying there I still remember very vividly all these years later how the doctor who was above right here above me said scalpel and I awakened when he said scalpel and I saw the nurse hand him the scalpel and I saw him plunge it in my side yeah I fainted I mean I didn't stay awake the second I saw him plunge it now one of the things I learned through that is you never move during an operation right you don't move during an operation but we like to move when the Holy Spirit operates on us when the Lord brings out his scalpel to remove something that's going to kill us or is dangerous to us we like to move all over dodging it it's I learned a long time ago remain still while the surgeon does his work remain still be still and know that I am God allow God to do his work all things work together for the good of those who love God to those who are the called according to his purpose they do work together and Paul is speaking concerning those things and so in spite of how it may appear at the moment you know one thing now when he says we know that all things that word no again I did a little little more looking at the Greek the original language I want to get more precise understanding that word no says it is translated that we can have absolute certainty you can know with absolute certainty you can know one thing God is in control he is saying God causes everything that we experience to produce good results in our lives it's hard to believe sometimes isn't it but it's true he allows everything we experience to ultimately produce good now he had just written in verse 26 that we don't always know how to pray but in spite of this we can know that all things are working together for good now when he says all things work together for good he's pointing to life in general he's not giving us permission to go out and sin expecting good to be the result he isn't saying that willful sinning will result in good he is saying that in our lives as we live for the Lord that he cares for us and even when things are working against us he is working on our behalf you see God would never permit evil if he could not bring good out of it so whatever we encounter God can redeem in Psalm 46 verses 1 and 2 God is our refuge and strength a very present help and trouble therefore we will not fear even though the earth be removed and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea we will not fear that's something to remember isn't it because i believe that the enemy uses fear to capture people and manipulate people constantly we've gone through a season of that haven't we with the covid thing and all the false reporting and the various things that kept us confused and controlled that's what happened there was a very real virus but what was being said wasn't accurate and we discovered that over time and so he can't be controlled by fear all things do work together now when he says all things work together i look that up but what does work together it's a it's a word that we are we are familiar with synergy synergize it speaks of cooperation so working together is synergy he's saying all things combine to produce good now this is not good produced by the events alone the events occur but the Lord causes them to bring about good there's an example and i wrote this down because i want to read this to make sure that i don't be labor this so i'll just read it an example of this is found in the book of genesis in reference to a joseph who was the son of jacob joseph was born of jacob and rachel he was jacob's favorite causing his brothers to become jealous of him now he had two dreams and after having those dreams and sharing them with the family his brothers out of hatred had sold him into slavery and he was taken to egypt well in egypt he was sold to a eunuch named potifer potifer's wife attempted to seduce joseph and joseph was imprisoned falsely while imprisoned he had the opportunity of interpreting two dreams one for a butler the other for the baker two years later he was released from prison he was made pharaoh's prime minister well he was in that office he was reunited with his brothers and when he revealed himself to his brothers they became afraid because they had sold him and they thought that he would take revenge on them we all know that story but genesis chapter 50 verses 18 through 20 says it like this his brothers also went and fell down before his face and they said behold we are your servants and joseph said to them do not be afraid for am i in the place of god but as for you this is beautiful you meant evil against me but god meant it for good in order to bring it about as it is this day to save many people alive he was falsely imprisoned spent 13 years in prison from the time he was 17 till he was 30 years of age he was elevated to a position of authority ultimately the brothers who sold him into slavery came needing help he could have taken revenge but he didn't because he had an eternal framework he said you meant it for evil but god intended it for good keep that in mind keep that in mind because there are times in our lives there are circumstances we will endure things that occur that we could wonder how could we ever see any good come out of this but all things work together for good to those who love the lord remember that you may need to know that on the way home tonight you may need to know that tomorrow next week just remember that all things work together what they intended for evil god intended for good so he says all things work together for good all things working together can produce blessings why well they can refine us and they also cause us to grow in our understanding of god's mercy we learn the ways of the lord as we go through things and sometimes those lessons that we learn well they do take some time and so where they're crying out to the lord i don't know how to pray god i'm making groanings the spirit is interceding i don't know what to expect and god says all things will work together for good if you love me so they work together and they give us insight into god's goodness they bring us into a much clearer perspective understanding it's like what jobe said in chapter 42 verses five and six when he had said i i have heard of you by the hearing of the ear but now my eye sees you therefore i abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes when you look at job you see that job is in chapter one chapter two he has spoken of as being a righteous man a very very righteous man and yet this is a man that is a picture of walking by faith and not by sight i've heard of you with the hearing of my ear and out of what i knew of you and had learned of you i was obedient too but now i see you with the seeing of my eye now i see what you really are like in the midst of all the sufferings and losses that joe went through he says i've discovered that you're good and i didn't realize that until i went through affliction until i went through the things that i've gone through and so all things are working together for good to those notice who love god so in life there are basically two categories of people those who love god and those who don't you need to know that there isn't a place of neutrality either you're for him or you're against him there are people who think that they can be kind of spiritual switzerland's neutral and and you can't be jesus said it like this in matthew 12 verse 30 he said he who is not with me is against me he who gathers not with me scatters abroad he didn't leave any gap he said either you are or you're not like a man could say to a woman will say you're not a little pregnant either you are or you're not but if a man does say that to a woman you better be sure she is because i remember when our church was very young i was standing in the back and people were filing out and i used to say hi how are you and this and that and here comes a woman i knew kind of and i never did it before i promise i never have done it again but i padded her tummy yeah i did and i said and when are you do i'm not pregnant uh anyway see never sorry again yeah so be careful but with that said we better get back to the to the bible study to those who love god how do we know we love him how can you know this love isn't simply an emotion we know that love is a decision of the will love isn't based on how i'm feeling at the moment love is based on a variety of things but it's usually my it's a decision you make the decision to love and then you act out those things that you've decided to do so how can i know how can i know that i have love for god let me give you a few things one how do i know that i love god one is i'm obedient to him i'm obedient to him jesus said in john 14 15 if you love me what keep my commandments if you love me keep my commandments and so in first john five verse three john said this is love for god to obey his commands and his commands are not burdensome they're not grievous they're not hard to bear when you're in love love makes things light when you love the lord you are obedient to him another thing second thing is you desire close fellowship with him it's like what it says in psalm 63 verse one you god are my god earnestly i seek you i thirst for you i hold bean longs for you in a dry and parched land where there's no water so i long for you i have a relationship with you i have fellowship with you i love you i want to obey you and i long for you i enjoy my fellowship with you a third thing is we love his word like it says in psalm 119 verse 97 oh how i love your law it is my meditation all the day i love your word i long for it i thirst for it i love fellowship with you and i love your word a fourth thing is is we love people ah it's easy to love those who love you isn't it it really is it's difficult to show love to those who mock you some of you were how many of you may i ask this before i give this uh how many of you were in first services and just if you were here would you raise your hand so i kind of know okay first service i'm assuming that others if you came to church went to second service and if you didn't come to church but anyway we had people who were out there who were kind of harassing you know so we went i went out in between first and second and i spoke to him and uh he put me on his uh his little uh feed and uh just blurred out i guess the things i was telling him and i was telling second service that i that i went and shared the gospel with him i went spoke to him and we had people from our church some of the guys who came and gave him water because it was hot so he drank that's what you do you know if you and we'll see this in in romans but if you're if you're if you're enemy and he's an enemy to us apparently is thirsty you give him something to drink it's hot you know here here's some water drink i hope you drown on it but we love you as we're giving it to you but do you love people do you love people do you love people yeah by this shall all men know you are my disciples if you have love one for another jesus said it's not uh it's not where i serve and it's how many things i do it's do i love people and so that's something that you pray for i i pray that quite a not quite often because those are things that are evidences that you that you love the lord you know so those who love god these are things that that demonstrate that there's a love in their heart for him so he says that in verse 28 he says to those who love god to those he says who are called according to his purpose so god is the one who has called us he he called us by the gospel the preaching and proclamation of of salvation through christ we heard it outwardly and we inwardly obeyed it he called us according to his purpose when it says according to his purpose that speaks of his plan his divine plan and so he called us according to his purpose his divine plan so the question is what's the divine plan what is his purpose well verse 29 whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son that he might be the first born among many brethren so for whom he foreknew and a foreknew can speak of prior knowledge obviously that's what the word would be defined foreknew prior knowledge but it doesn't speak simply of a prior knowledge because the word no can be used in in in reference to an intimacy adam knew his wife and she conceived so they're they're speaking of more than prior knowledge it can be used to also describe um an intimacy and so god has an intimate knowledge of us it would speak of his his love that he has for us as his children that he's had from the beginning again the the word carries the sense of intimacy in amos chapter 3 verse 9 you only have a known of all the families of the earth the lord speaks and says to the nation of israel and second timothy 2 19 nevertheless the foundation of god stands sure having the seal the lord knows those who are his there's an intimacy he has a knowledge and so those whom he foreknew those who he has relationship with prior and loves deeply and then he speaks of those whom he has predestined the word predestined speaks of appointing determining beforehand it speaks of marking out and so the word predestined is looking to the end of his purpose and what is his purpose verse 29 to be conformed into the image of his son his plan for the believer is that we'll be like him that we will be like jesus he's to be the first born among many brethren verse 29 what is he doing he's creating a family a community he's bringing about a community of people who glorify him and titus 2 14 paul said who gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purifying to himself a peculiar a different a unique people who are zealous for good works first peter 2 verse 9 says you are a chosen people a royal priesthood holy nation god's special possession that you may declare the praise of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light why were you saved to praise him who called you out of darkness out of spiritual darkness the life that we lived without him he saved us and and we are lights now in a very dark world and he created a new community that we might glorify him and this new community is being conformed into the image of christ you see ultimately we're going to have glorified bodies every day i look forward to that more and more glorified body i groan already but not in the biblical way i just groan but we're gonna have bodies that are suitable for heaven in Philippians 3 20 and 21 it says our citizenship is in heaven we eagerly await a savior from there the lord jesus christ who by the power that enables him to subject all things to himself will transform our lowly bodies to be like his glories body you see while on earth our lives are being transformed in heaven we ultimately have that that glory on earth we'll see this in romans 12 paul said it like this in verse 2 he said be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind that you may prove but is that good acceptable and perfect will of god and so on earth we're being transformed because no longer will we be conformed to this age we're being transformed by the renewing of our mind so here on earth that's taking place but in heaven that'll be completed so in the new community he's saying that jesus is the firstborn meaning when he says firstborn he is the one who is preeminent he is the firstborn so it's not speaking of the birth order it's speaking of the honor you see jesus is the unique son of god and has favored status in matthew 3 17 a voice from heaven said this is my son whom i love with him i am well pleased so there are those who will say well jesus is firstborn and speak of him as if he was a human being created uh and the first born in terms of uh um you know as a human being it's a cultic way to think because jesus christ is god and the flesh incarnated and so it speaks of his his preeminence is what it's referring to it's not speaking of the fact that he is a first but it's speaking in terms of his honor and glory that he has as the firstborn in clausians 1 it says it a little more clearly in verses 15 through 20 he is the image of the invisible god the firstborn of all creation for by him all things were created in heaven and on earth visible and invisible whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things were created through him and for him he is before all things and in him all things hold together he is the head of the body of the church he is the beginning the firstborn from the dead that in everything he might be preeminent for in him all the fullness of god was pleased to dwell and through him to reconcile to himself all things whether on earth or in heaven making peace by the blood of his cross so he is the firstborn and so he is the preeminent one we're only adopted children into the family of god so our purpose is to worship him now in verse 30 continues and he says more over whom he predestined these he also called whom he called these he also justified whom he justified these he also glorified and so he's speaking concerning those who have been called and all predestined those who are called and so those of us who have been called it speaks of how we received christ through hearing the word of the gospel so he called us through the proclamation of the gospel again that's one of the reasons guys remember this always that it's very important for us as believers to center our attention on the proclamation of god's word i don't know how us to say that any more plain than that i think that today what we have is a lot of distractions even in the church that people people can go to church services for the wrong reasons i'll say this very quickly if i can um when i first got saved i didn't go to church for entertainment i didn't go to church services bible studies to to do anything other than to learn about jesus christ that's i figured if i'm going to live for christ i need to know what his word says that made sense to me see so we had an amazing thing going in in this when i was saved obviously a movie was it was made about that and greg was sharing those things greg lory you know about this revolution but it was true i what was what we what our lives were built on was not entertainment our lives were built on jesus christ and we went to church as young i was 20 years old went to church services not because they had great bands and they did and not because they had a great speakers lani frisbee and chuck smith they were very very amazing communicators and and and all of that but that's not why i went i went because i wanted to know god i want now how am i going to know god if i don't hear the bible how am i how am i going to know him and i'm telling you and and i say this with with sorrow and i guess i can say it with some authority and experience i've been around for a while now i can say this um there are quite a number of places that may be filled with people but they're not filled with the things of the lord they're they're there for the the exciting um music and maybe the exciting speech and all that happens all over you see it on tv all the time and what has happened is bible studies have been turned into entertainment and churches are entertainment centers and and that doesn't build you up because you can get just so hyped you know and so excited then you climb in your car and you drive home and you go back to regular life and it's you haven't been helped but when you know that all things work together for the good of those who love god when you know that and you go home and you enter back into a situation that is difficult you can have hope because you know god's in control that comes not through a pep talk and that comes not through exciting worship i thank god for for great exhortation and and spiritual worship of course of course but that's not what my life was built on and so for the time i was 22 where i'm at right now it's been built on the solid rock of the word of god which is giving me the ability to go through the times that sometimes are rough and sometimes it's like you're you're trying to walk on water but the wind is blowing and the waves are are crashing and i don't know what i'm and then you say no all things are working together god is going to do something marvelous through this just be still know that he's god don't try and save yourself out of this let him do the work he wants and you'll see god will move and so he's calling us he calls us by the word and then he justifies us that word justify he declares us to be not guilty we're not guilty he is already he's taken it upon himself our sin has been paid for he's declared that we've been justified we've already seen that in chapter five he had said in verse one having been justified by faith we have peace with god through our lord jesus christ he goes on in verse 30 whom he justified he also glorified i want you to notice that that the what he's he's using past tense glorified as a past tense thing he's saying it's it's this way in god's sight this is already done he looks at it as something already done i was standing in line years ago and there were two kids in front of me were marie and i were going to a movie and and these kids were having an argument i just happened to be standing there they were like 10 or 11 years old and they were just arguing about a sports event that had taken place and one was saying this particular team's going to win and the other one was saying no this team's going to win and they were arguing i mean they were very serious and it's kind of fun to watch a kid argue like that and and so as i was watching them arguing i already knew the score of the game so i turned to one of the kids and i whispered to him and i said bet on the rams they want it was something already done and in and our lives are like a dream that's already been had the events have already taken place in the mind of god he's justified you he's already this is so heavy i can't explain it i don't even grab how deeply deep this is he sees us already this is so hopeful as glorified the work in his sight you love god you're called according to his purpose he's glorified it is an event in his mind that is complete so don't live as if you've got it's already in his sight done just live in that way give yourself a little bit of grace i guess god is at work so he goes on and he says what then verse 31 what then shall we say to these things if god is for us who can be against us if god is for us who can be so goliath and david nine foot nine versus five foot five maybe little david at that time was the average height of the average jewish man of his day thousand years before christ five five they say maybe five six nine foot nine and he comes upon this giant who's challenging the armies of israel who is this uncircumcised pagan what an attitude he's nothing you know just allow me to take care of him because when he approaches david and the scriptures interest to him it says and david ran to him david was anxious and he ran to him and i'm paraphrasing obviously but he said he says there you are with your with your weapons of war you know your sword and javelin your spear you've got all those things yeah but i come to you in the name of god and you have defied him and i'm gonna cut your head off now that's david so what he saw was not the giant he said i come to you in the name of the lord what he saw was the one who gives him victory see so keep that in mind because when you face your giant obstacles you're not coming against him in your own strength because i promise you you'll lose you're coming in the strength of the lord and if you understand that victory is assured if god is for us who can be against us what more can be said we're conformed we're being conformed into his image we're called justified we're glorified if god is for us well what's going to frustrate his plan you see god is the omnipotent king of the universe and this this king is on our side it's like what it says in psalm 18 verse 6 the lord is on my side i will not be afraid what could man do to me the lord is on my side i will not be afraid i say a 41 10 do not fear i am with you do not be afraid i am your god i will strengthen you i will surely help you i will uphold you with my right hand of righteousness just hang on god is for us he's saying no one can stand in his way he says in verse 32 he who did not spare his own son but delivered him up for us all how shall he not with him also freely give us all things god did not withhold his son from the anguish and the humiliation and the death instead god yielded him he did not hold back according to verse 32 he delivered him up he surrendered that word delivered means to surrender or yield he he delivered him up to custody so that he'd be judged condemned punished scourge tormented and finally put to death he delivered him up so how shall he not with him also free freely give us all things you see with him we receive all things that he freely and graciously gives in Ephesians 1 3 paul says blessed be the god and father of our lord jesus christ who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in christ peter said in second peter 1 verse 3 according as his as his divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of him who has called us to glory and virtue what am i lack what am i lacking am i lacking anything the bible says no you have all things god is giving you all that is necessary and again sometimes we say if we only had a little more a little more what a little more what no he's already given us all things in christ what we need to do is we need to learn how to just exercise those things that he's given to us it's like that lady who had her son had been in the military for many years and he finally got out he hadn't been home he got out and he went to his mom's house and as he went to the house he he goes to the picket fence there then the and the the door was off the the the the gate was off its hinge and and he walks in and he sees the grasses died and weeds and plants and the screen door is is the screen is rusted and peeling out he enters into the house and it's dingy and and mama what do you mean what happened i don't have any money this is what happens when you have no money so what are you talking about i said mama i i've been sending you money orders for the last several years to support you she's money orders what's that money orders you don't know what a money mama no what is that he said i've been oh you mean those pieces of paper he goes what are you talking about she says coming she walks into one of the rooms and she had wallpapered the room with money orders she wallpapered the room with the money orders with his the money that he had sent her god has given to us access to his blessings and we put them on the wall we kind of look at them every once in a while paul is saying that isn't what it's for god has given you these blessings and you come behind in no gift exercise those things understand those things you've been justified he sees you as glorified if he's for you who can be against you so live as the one who is victorious not the one who is wondering how this is going to end and so who can condemn the one that god has declared to be not guilty and first john too paul said it like this uh rather john said it he said in verse one my little children these things i write into you that you sin not and if any man sin we have an advocate with the father jesus christ the righteous so he asks in verse 34 and i'll read to verse 39 in synopsis that who is he who condemns it is christ who died furthermore is also risen who is even at the right hand of god who also makes intercession for us who shall separate us from the love of christ shall tribulation or distress persecution or famine nakedness peril sword as it is written for your sake we are killed all day long we are counted as sheep for the slaughter yet in all these things we're more than conquerors through him who loved us i'm persuaded that neither death nor life nor angel nor principalities nor powers nor things present nor things to come nor height nor depth nor any other created things shall be able to separate us from the love of god which is in christ jesus our lord and so who can verse 33 i jumped over that but who can bring a charge against god's elect we know that satan accuses us we know our heart can accuse us but god has already forgiven us who is the one who can condemn the one that god has declared to be not guilty no one and so jesus is the one verse 34 who makes intercession for us and then the question is asked who shall separate us from the love of christ who and what can separate us from the love that christ has for us who can do that who can come between christ and his bride who can take the love of christ the love he has for me who can take that away from me who's able to do that who can separate me and my my master who can separate us from the love that christ jesus has for us and and now he begins to speak about the things that that people would say well i used to love jesus but this happened so he he speaks about tribulation can tribulation tribulation speaks of intense pressure can distress the word distress speaks of somebody who is hemmed in and helpless can persecution and when people revolve you to your face or physically attack you or speak evil of you can that separate you from christ's love for you no can can famine famine results very often from persecution can famine separate me from the love of christ no can nakedness destitution or poverty no can peril danger in general no can the sword can can someone attempt to take my life and thus make jesus no longer love me and he's saying no in verse 36 he says it like this and he's actually quoting a psalm psalm 44 verse 22 he says for your sake we're killed all day long we're accounted as sheep for the slaughter as believers we're exposed to danger and we're exposed to to to the potential for death constantly yet verse 37 and all of these things were more than conquerors in and through all of these things we remain overwhelmingly victorious so instead of losing hope we can come out of trouble stronger than ever before because he said i'm persuaded that nothing can separate me nothing in existence can separate me and of this he's saying i'm persuaded he's saying i am thoroughly convinced death is nothing i fear because it's been defeated by jesus life with all its tribulation and trials cannot separate me angels whether good or fallen cannot principalities it speaks of the government of angels including the fallen angels things present things to come everything we ever experience including all disasters powers which speak of governmental authority but also demonic the height or the depth the fact is and this will close with this thought the love of christ covers everything from the beginning to the end of our relationship with him nothing can separate you from the love of jesus christ when you leave tonight please if anything sticks with you may that stick with you nothing can separate you from his love his love is everlasting everlasting and you can feel bad yes and you can feel so many different things if your heart condemns you and it can god is greater than your heart he knows all things the enemy would like to whisper in your your ear and i know some of you know what i'm saying when i say this he would like to whisper in your ear and he does it in a variety of ways you're gone too far he can't possibly love you look at you look at you you've gone too far i was in insinada 1973 sinko de mayo weekend i was drunk for two days two friends and i had polished off two cases of beer between newport beach and the border tijuana and then for two days i backslid and drank myself into oblivion for two days i was an alcoholic before i got saved alcohol was a very tempting thing for me and so we went crazy for two days and yet i was there on the street and somebody handed me a track actually i found it on the ground it was in spanish but i knew it was a bible track and i handed it to somebody for them to read and the guy said something very vulgar to me as i handed it to him but it was that reaction that made me think what am i doing i'm not you know pigs will go back to the to the mud that they've been washed from dogs do return to their vomit but a son of god or daughter of god doesn't you may you may be tempted to and maybe even start splashing around a little bit but that isn't you don't go back why because because a pig is a pig and a dog is a dog and you're neither a pig nor a dog you're a child of the king and the lord has a way of reminding you and it was through his mercy and his compassion and i came home and my my sister madeline said well you were gone for three days did you have a good time and that i said yeah i had a blast we did this we did that and i started crying i said remember i was there at the kitchen table with my sister madeline and i wept and i said i've walked away from jesus and i got to come home i can't do this i went to church that night and the the evangelist that was at the church gave an invitation if you backslidden he said standing get right with god and i stood there with all these other people i still remember it i stood up and i said i'm not going back i'm going to follow jesus that was may and a couple months later i i enrolled at biola university it was called biola college at that time became a bible major and a history major and then a psychology major but and i i didn't turn back because if god is for you who can be against you because what shall separate you from the love of christ tell your sin no he loves you and he gives you hope and he forgives you and all you need to do is say god be merciful to me i am so sorry i haven't been what i should be the enemy says he doesn't love you but paul says oh yes he does with a never-lasting love he laid his life down for us god didn't spare his own son how shall he not with him give us all things that pertain to life keep that in mind because your god loves you and some of you think he doesn't well let me remind you today he does


The start to this new league year has been crazy and I mean the craziness started before the new league year even began It started even before the legal tampering period of free agency began and it started even before The official free agency began. It's just been an ongoing thing for like these past Seven days it has been crazy with big signings big trades big all of this and we've been trying to keep up with everything And it's been a lot it's been fun, but it's been a lot and the Ravens have been part of it too Of course with them stepping way out of their comfort zone and signing a young player In his prime who didn't play for the Ravens an outside player And Marcus Williams to a big big money significant deal like that's not very Raven like they don't do that type of stuff now the Moses the Morgan Moses deal that that's a Ravens deal. The uh, the Michael Pierce deal That's a Ravens deal as well. But and we still appreciate that they were making these moves. This is Darius Smith when that was like I guess that's that was a Ravens deal too because it was a cheaper deal Uh, wasn't market value and since it wasn't market value. That was a Darius Smith said I'm out doing this but anyway, um If I take you back a little bit We talked about um months ago how we felt like the Ravens just this offseason They really needed to change a lot with their philosophy Uh, a lot needed to just be different if they were gonna have some significant success And I still do stand by that. Uh, I still been talking about that. I talked about how they should they need to be quality over quantity Uh, I talked about how they just just how they approach the offseason in general It just needs to be a lot different I talked about how they need to stop and again in my opinion They need to stop wanting to keep every single last draft picking rack up on draft pick traffic No, it's okay to come out come off of some of those But my my thing with them in the offseason is that I just felt like they needed to be more Aggressive you do not have to reach the level of ram style aggressive because I feel like with a lot of Ravens fans When you talk about the Ravens being more aggressive The first thing they think about is the Rams and I can understand why but it's like with Ravens fans They they think to an extreme. Usually it's an extreme negative. Uh, we were in the spaces yesterday Skepticoke brought out such a great point and it's so true Ravens fans have been conditioned to think that the Ravens really going all in for a player really getting those Significant players in their primes really getting those key different difference makers Ravens fans have been conditioned to think that it's going to be a bad thing that it's not going to work out That that player is going to get hurt that that player is not worth it Oh, what about the salary cap that Ravens fans have been so conditioned to think the worst and think so negative When it comes to acquiring significant talent to really make a difference on the roster And I think Ravens fans have been thinking that way because it seems as if the front office has sort of operated that way They they they will have a lot of draft picks. They'll sign some players now. Don't get me wrong. They'll sign some players Um, but they don't really make those they don't they don't really get the big difference makers like that like that for the significant money And you know, you can't get huge difference makers at every single position You know that well unless you the Rams Rams could do it, but you know, you know, you can't really do it at every single position but Just doing it more just really getting after because right now like the Ravens they stepped out of their comfort zone this off season They did some some things was like, oh Okay, Raven. I see. Well, mainly the markets Williams deal the rest of the deal. They were pretty Raven like um, but They got to do more. They got to play catch up now Ravens got to play catch up now because it was looking like and we know that their roster even with all the guys that they got Coming back. Yeah, they're gonna be straight They're gonna be straight and I expect them to be in the playoff even though Hey, you know, Joe Burrow and then Bengals they were working on the offensive line and they still got a whole draft to do too Uh, you know, the Browns, they just got to Sean Watson And even if he gets suspended for half a long He'll be back and he'll have some games against the Ravens And then the Steelers, yeah, they got Mr. Biscay, but you know Steelers, they always messing around But I don't expect them to do anything significant right here right now, but it's still early in the off season so we'll see but Just within their own division Ravens they gonna they're gonna have a whole lot of work to do like a whole lot But then you think about outside the division too Teams are really like showing. Hey, no, no, no, we are not messing around We're not taking this patient approach. We're not taking a oh Let's wait and see and I hear another thing that I hear a lot from a lot of Ravens fans Oh, man, y'all y'all want the Ravens to play the short game Oh, y'all y'all want to win and go all in right here right now, but what about 10 to 12 years down the road? Why do we have this like this thinking to where 10 to 12 years down the road We're not talking about your personal savings account or something like that We're not talking about sending your kids to cotton. No, no, no We're talking about the Ravens competing for Super Bowls Not just being a competitive team not just being a team that oh, well, they tried they were in a figure thing Well, at least they made it to the play. No, no, no I I feel like the goal should be for the Ravens to win Super Bowls Super Bowls not just be around not just Here but we're in the playoff. We made the play. No, no, no the goal is to win is to win The NFL is much different than it used to be Ravens approach It worked back then it worked in 2012 It worked back then it worked in two that well, it was a different approach back in 2000 But their approach is not with the current times And that's one of the philosophies that I talked about I felt needed to change big time Their approach It should be different They gotta get with the times one of those philosophies that I feel should change is the way that they run their offense Now last year it looked like it was starting to change But I think that was because it was really they were forced to change it do the injuries They lost all that running backs the offensive line was banged up.  We got to pass heavy our running game is Lamar Jackson And I mean you really look at the past couple years It Lamar Jackson has always been a Ravens run game as long as he's been here He has been like I saw one of my guys. I think it was time to fly He put it on twitter He put up the numbers when he put up the Ravens Russian numbers and Ravens have obviously been one of the best Russian teams in the league over the past couple of years I mean if you put all the years Lamar Jackson's been here together and been starting They've been the number one Russian team, I believe But then he put up the numbers with Lamar Jackson Russian then he put up the numbers without Lamar Jackson Right. He took away Lamar Jackson's Russian yards and then it was like, oh, okay. All right. Well Why are they that great of a Russian team? But you can't take away Lamar Jackson's Russian yards But the point in that is that Lamar jack that that just increases Lamar Jackson's value because a lot of people have been saying They make the jokes about him being rb1 a lot of outside teams and some inside fans too They make the joke about Lamar Jackson being running back one, but in all actuality Ravens asked him with how much he runs and how much he contributes to the run game Especially a lot of a lot of these runs are designed And that's a part of the philosophy I would love for them to change too. Take away a lot of them design runs if Lamar takes off Let him take off. Those would be some of the best takeoffs. Anyway, when he decides. All right, you know what?  It's so many designs So many oh my goodness. It's so many and some of them are just so cringy They come at the worst times and it it seems like it's like when all else fails This is another part of the philosophy change that we talked about again This is nothing new But it seems a lot of times when all else fails with uh with the offense they like all right, Lamar Just run we'll do a design run And this is why again a lot of us have been saying Hey, go all in like look look at the past couple of Super Bowl winners And look at the people who have really been like in in the thick of things till the very end We look at the Rams You know their approach You know their approach is a let's get it We we going for it all the time and they stick with that That's them forget those draft picks as you all know they go all in and look at look By golly gee they won a Super Bowl that way and they were just in a Super Bowl a couple years back Even though they weren't supposed to be there now the whole little passing interference thing, but they won it this year And then with the bingles with the bingles is different because the bingles they did uh Well the bingles they changed their approach to now Because the bingles they it was a mix of a couple of things one Is something that you don't want the Ravens to go through because one was the bingles They will be losing losing losing so they get all these super high draft picks That was one part, but then last year they were like hold up We we got wow. We got the special guy in Jamar Chase, but you know what? Let's go out and actually really spend some money in free agent like let's really spend some money In free agency And they went out and did that boom Super Bowl They got to the Super Bowl Then we go to the previous year the the Bucks The Bucks and it's like with the Bucks. I I feel like I don't hear people talk about this enough The Bucks went all in to build a roster and get a Super Bowl They signed Tom Brady. Of course, you know, you signing Tom Brady. You signing the referees. You signing the NFL You signing the league too. So you gotta look so but still they signed Tom Brady They went, you know what? We got some real good. We got Mike Evans. We got Chris Galvin Let's get Antonio Brown too Come on, bring him. You know what? Let's trade for Rob Gronkowski. Bring him You know what? Let's get for for that too bring them They still went all in with and there was other guys too, but they still went all in with building that roster You see look at them there with Brady coming back. They lost a couple guys But they like, you know what? Let's let's trade for one of the better guards in the league from the Patriots I don't know what Brady got. Well, he obviously got something on the Patriots because he was there for the longest So he got plenty on him. He said give me shack loss. Give me him Give me him. Give me him now So it's like these guys These teams and then you can go to the chiefs too chiefs They they they'll just sign juju They still got Tyreek Hill. They still got Travis Kelsley. Still got McCall Harbor. They still signed juju And I know as much as you're Ravens fan, that's fine. You probably like juju. Sorry No, he's not And and chiefs are always looking to get better especially on office They always looking to sign playmakers if somebody comes available chiefs are always looking at them Always every time never fails ever They always like and y'all know too any time you see a significant player released Uh, they they're a free agent chiefs always. Oh, hey, we interested And a lot of time they try to make a move and that's on defense too Now they look for them playmakers on defense like they really try to build up the office But they look for significant playmakers on defense as well So but when you look at that you look at the guys and then look at the bills too Look at the bills The bills signed Josh Allen. They brought in Stefan They do just they they all that stuff about oh man If you sign a quarterback to a long-term deal, then you're not going to be able to build around them That's garbage. That's false. That is not true That's not true Because Josh Allen he he doesn't he doesn't he have a big deal? Yeah, he does I think so These dudes just signed Varmilla to the what the Joe Flacco contract six years 120 mil It's two 32 years old got a six year 120 mil contract And I know he's not going to get a full 120 mil, but it's still a lot of money Still a lot of money and the bills stay continuing to build up that roster around Josh Allen Bill's roster is nice. They did just finally get rid of cold bees. You know, they've been want to get rid of cold Beesie for a long time, but they just got rid of cold Beesie But you know, they're going to replace him with something nice They I remember when they signed Emmanuel Sanders, of course, they drafted Gabe Davis and we know about Stefan But the bills they've been doing this thing too, man And look where it took them Look look where it got them. Oh To the uh, wow, they they got that foreign to play. Oh, wow A couple times tuna past couple years And it it did end in heartbreak, but They got this somebody gotta lose everybody can't win every year But then then you look at the writers that look at the whole afc. Oh my goodness. Look at the whole afc West. Look what they are doing to go all the the Broncos Broncos brought on Russell Wilson. They, um, They got the pass rusher from the Cowboys. I always forget whether it's Randy Gregory or Demarcus Lawrence. I think it's Randy Gregory though either way. Um, so they they've been doing this What they doing that thing this all season? Uh, the chiefs we talked about them already the charges. Oh, we got a joey bolster So it's like they have a quality pass rusher who has been producing. You know what? Let's get another one Let's get another one. They will out go out and get Khalil Mack Signed Mike Williams to his huge deal like and they they are really taking significant advantage of Justin Herbert being on his rookie deal. They're really taking significant advantage. It's too late for the Ravens to do that That that's that's long gone Lamar boom 23 mil right right up right right now Right now and now Lamar Jackson probably looking at you.  Oh fully But my jacks gonna be like don't talk to me Don't talk to me unless that's where you start but anyway, um So they going in and then the Raiders Raiders bring on Chandler Jones for 17 mil per they just signed Max Crosby. Look at it. See this is what I'm talking about You see teams they have quality already They have they had Max Crosby. They just signed him to that big deal. They said, you know what? No Bringing more quality bringing more high quality Chandler Jones 17 mil per brought him on men on a big deal too Got ready in the king gateway, but brought in Chandler Jones Then they like oh they getting ready to pay Derek Carr too by the way, but now they bringing in uh davante Adams It's like man What like And they got they got some decent receivers now and they got Darren Waller But they like no no no no we are gonna keep trying to add more high quality players because we trying to win And that's what I'm talking. That's why I feel like the Ravens are behind They're behind And it's like it's crazy how behind I feel like they are because They actually did step out of their comfort zone a little bit this offseason, but Right now it's still not enough now. I'm not saying oh man off season is over. Oh, that's terrible, but The Ravens got to step up They got to step up in a major major major major way because they are far behind right now A lot of Ravens fans when you think about when you talk about them adding more quality players to the team Like we talk about adding a quality wide receiver to the team That's a conversation that we've had a lot of times And I've been saying I feel like they're gonna do it through the draft this year But even if they did it through like a guy that was like that Do it whether it be trade whether it's a well free agency It could do some stuff there, but whether it be trade if they acquired a guy who is like that Like really like that and it could be a rookie too now, but either way And some people say oh, whoa, what about Bateman? What about Hollywood? Yeah, we have quality guys already. Why not add more? Why not add more a lot of Ravens fans just want to Settle they they don't they want they don't want everybody's job to be made easier That's something that we talked about earlier this offseason two make everybody's job easier Make Lamar Jackson's job easier build up the offensive line Make Hollywood's job easier have other significant wide receivers make Michelle Bateman's job easier have other significant wide receivers Make Mark Andrews job easier have other significant tight ends of wide receivers and pass catchers Make jk's make Gus Edwards make all of their jobs easier from having other building up the offensive line Defense get an interior pass rusher make Patrick Queen's job easier Get another linebacker make Patrick Queen's job easier have an interior pass rush and make the cornerbacks the secondary the linebacker's job easier Have a pass rush You see what i'm saying The the job should be to make everybody's job easier. How do you do that by making the opponent's job harder?


Hi Amy. Thanks for coming, at least your voice. And I can mark her as here, right? So I'll start with public comments since there's no public, we'll skip right to approval of the minutes and we can put that, let's, we won't do that this meeting. Any city updates? Just, I was just gonna talk about the Halloween event and just recap that. We brought the poster that we had at the meeting where we had people writing on stuff, so feel free to look at that, but that was the only update that I had on your city updates. Okay, so then let's get right to the draft bastard plan. I'll just turn it over to Regina at this point. I think the draft was sent out via a link to an FTP site, so it's a much cleaner version I think than the last draft you saw. It's pretty fairly well polished. There's a few just minor things I think that need to be cleaned up, but nothing of any significance that I saw, so I know Regina has a few things to add, but we'll go with that. Yeah, so there were a couple of things I was gonna walk us through, but I don't know, none of the things I was gonna walk us through needed to be decided or anything tonight. I was just gonna sort of give a few highlights so I can do that quickly, but essentially I think what we want to decide is whether this is ready to at least warn as a public hearing for December 13th, and essentially that does not mean we're saying we're 100% satisfied with this plan and sending it to city council. It simply means you're putting it out there for public comment, and all comments that you get at the public hearing we then essentially have another month to incorporate those into the plan before it goes off to city council. So there just to highlight a few things that are different since the last time you saw the plan. There's a decent section in there about river corridors which were not in there before. This is essentially something that the planning commission more than likely should think about once this plan is done because some emergency relief funds are sort of tied to this new concept of river corridors. Put some other natural resource information in there mostly to satisfy some planned requirements from a habitat wildlife perspective, and essentially what we're basically saying is the places that are important to Winnieski from a natural resources perspective is the riparian areas essentially along the river and the river itself and Gilbert natural area for for the most part in terms of a kind of natural space. We simplified the implementation program to really identify what gets done on an annual basis and really explain that the city will work on annual work programs to kind of get through the goals and decide exactly what what you want to do on an annual basis. We've just at the RPC yesterday reviewed Shelburne's plan and the committee that reviews plans was perfectly fine with that approach that Shelburne is using as well. So just so you folks know that. So there is precedent now for that type of implementation program that we're not we're not going through and identifying specific tasks and specific timelines and specific individuals or groups that would fulfill those obligations in the plan. We would do that as a separate kind of work plan for the planning commission that we can then update and amend as needed based on either the council priorities or planning priorities or just community priorities in general. Page 34 in your version that's the economic section that was really kind of reworked quite a bit so I think that gets hopefully it gets to a better place of what you folks were hoping to see in that section. Page 48 in your draft there's quite a bit more in the plan on energy and essentially what the city is already doing in terms of meeting energy reduction, energy use reduction, renewable energy generation and then just general what you're doing from sort of a transportation perspective which is a huge energy use in our sectors. So that stuff is there's a good summary in the plan itself and then the other PDF that you folks were sent is a whole appendix of energy data and information that we can include as an appendix of the plan. Can I ask you a quick question? Sure. Page 48 you've got the MG goals you've got reducing greenhouse gas by 50% from 1990 levels and by 75% from 1990 levels by 2050 should that be like 2000 instead of the first 1990 should it be 48? I wonder if it's a different page. No it should be 48 still. It isn't well it's 48 in my draft. Okay sorry so which bullet? The first bullet. This first one right here? Yeah. Reducing greenhouse gases by 50% from 1990 and 75% from 1990 levels. By 2050. I think oh maybe that yeah no by it says by 50% from 1990 then by 75% from 1990. So something's missing I think there's a date that's missing the 50% from 1990 should be by a date. By 2020 maybe. Yeah okay. Because 1990 is the baseline right? Yeah. We're reducing from so yeah. And then the ultimate goal is to reduce it by 75% by 2050. Maybe it was 2025. Yeah most of the goals are either 2025, 2035 or 2050 so it's got to be one of those. Awesome thanks for noticing that. Okay so we could probably we don't have enough folks here to really get into this but we really have two options on the energy front which is whether we want to go for the enhanced energy planning or you just want to go for the basic energy planning but we can talk about that next time because it's a little bit complicated and it not needed to be decided tonight. I think though we were discussing including the energy information as the appendix to the plan and not try to weave that data into the document directly because I think of some of the mapping that's required it may kind of it may construe because the mapping is related specifically to energy we don't want it to reflect that it's related to the entire plan necessarily. Yeah and there are so that other document that was in the FTP site is the energy appendix. It didn't have the maps associated with it so we will add those maps to it for the public here in draft so they'll just be out there for folks to review. Page 52 so Amy sorry you're not going to be able to physically see this but just wanted just wanted folks to see so Amy what I'm handing out is a sample of what Page 52 will evolve to so it's a sample of what the actual design layout of the final draft version of the plan will look like it uses the city's new branding format I guess colors fonts and all that kind of stuff because they are style guide for the new brand so we can also take some time again probably not super helpful tonight to think about this but any feedback thoughts on this this doesn't have to be the way it is but the colors and the fonts will probably stay relatively the same but the layout we could do all kinds of different things with it um but just wanted to give you that as a sample um my first when I looked at it I looked at that that um storm water pipe with the muddy water coming out it can sort of better yeah both of those pictures actually we will find a better a better thing for um the other one's okay I mean it shows that is that is that what it is the picture about storm water yeah the intent is that this goes with goal number two which is really how to address storm water um just have a nice picture of the river since it all goes there anyway that's what I was thinking too it would be interesting to just have yeah I think you're it's probably earlier in the plan in your draft version that you have there is a photo of the river and a photo of some girls with their brain barrel they're painting a rain barrel that's so that's what I was thinking I was trying to find something like that but so yeah so we can we could figure that stuff out um one thing I just want to point out is is the level of work of doing this is just not efficient to do it until the content's pretty well set so we're not going to warn the public hearing draft is not going to look like this it's going to look like the pdf that you guys got in your packet last week but this is to let you know that ultimately the plan will evolve to something that looks much more like this once we really have the content set okay um page 56 in your draft reworked the public health um section with a little less emphasis on opioids not that that is not important but it's not the only important thing from a public health perspective so the planning commission talked about that at the last meeting so I reworked that um page 61 plus the community connections and the safety section is reworked quite a bit based on discussions from here and some of that was a little bit placeholder-y so that's filled in um page 72 the housing introduction was reworked quite a bit and then the key issues and insights kind of reorganized and reworked a bit to really follow the format that we have eventually landed on for each chapter um then uh on page 80 goal 1 still needs some editing but um we can uh kind of take that note out for the public hearing draft and then figure out where we want to land on that um I was going to ask you about that because there's a few places in here where there's no still a note yeah so I'll probably pull all of those out for the public hearing draft um and yeah so that's it in terms of what I wanted to highlight um I did want to let folks know that Jesse had a chance to review um the previous draft two nights ago last night yeah something like that um and so she's got a lot of really great feedback and comments on the plan which is super helpful um so we'll be able to look at that at the public hearing and be able to incorporate that in the next version okay and in the meantime assuming we warn this for next month in the meantime do you want us to get back to you with any comments that we have that would be huge like if you folks could take if the whole planning commission could take the month and really look at it that would be super super helpful okay um and the other thing that we might be able to do we haven't figured this out um is if any of the other commissions want me to come and talk to them yeah we can do that too in the in between what I was going to do is once we were comfortable and set it for for public hearing I was going to forward the draft to all the other commissions so that they could take a look at it again to see where we landed Amy do you have something want to add well I thought I heard you start to say something oh maybe not maybe not maybe it was a yawn I don't know yes yeah thank you yeah Regina said cool okay any further discussion about this and if not I'd entertain a motion one of the two of you to warn a public hearing on December 13th I make a motion to to warn a public hearing for the draft on December 13th okay is there any further discussion so it should the draft should I mean the motion should also include an approval of the written report so the written report is just very simply you can hand this out um a summary of what the plan entails and an acknowledgement that the plan meets the state's planning goals okay um so so I'm assuming you're going to amend your motion to that oh I was typing can you repeat that please just just include the what is it just the reporting the written report yeah okay it's it's in here yes so on December 13th your what that is is basically going to be um a meeting where we gather public comment either from anybody who wants to show up and give you comment or we were likely receive lots of comment via email or thoughts from the other commissions or each of you should be coming with comments and you're more than welcome to send them to me beforehand um but essentially on the 13th you won't have a new draft to look at because we're really just going to be like taking comments and then from December 13th to I think it ends up being January 3rd or something like that um that's when we I will be incorporating all the changes into a new draft um that you all see before you move it on to the city council and that's going to include this kind of you don't see it any but but um she gave us uh a sample of what the design is going to be like yep yeah so the hope is that it'll be pretty well incorporated into something like that um we'll set we'll have to figure out if it will be by January 10th or if it'll come later in the process but it'll be it'll be much clearer by December 13th okay so in the meantime Eric can you scan I was going to say what I'll do is what I'll do is send out the report and the I'll call it the the the draft style sheet for the plan to the commission members uh the other thing that it's this though isn't it well I'll send this just so folks can see folks that aren't here but you want us to just look at correct this is what we have okay because it's easier for me to look at this than to look at the screen yes absolutely but what I'll do is and if you want hard copies I can do that but because it sounds like there's some of the notes and things will be taken out of this version um is that yeah there's just a few yeah there's a few notes that'll be removed that I can clean up and give you a new draft if you want or you can just take that graph that you have printed and use that but we will send a I'll say slightly updated draft for the public hearing and announce when we announce it because we have to send it to all the adjacent municipalities we send it to the state that draft will get the slight polish from this meeting no it's not going to be in the design format that you don't have the privilege of seeing right now right it's going to be it's going to look very similar to the pdf that came in your email last Friday I mean for all intents and purposes Amy the pdf that I sent out with the agenda is basically what it's going to be okay I can share it with you tomorrow if you'd like the hard copy yeah I can't wait even though I do have other plans but we'll do it tomorrow okay any further comments or discussion hearing none all in favor of the motion to warn the hearing please say aye aye that's what I thought I heard that I coming over the phone got stuck someplace between Boston here opposed motion carries okay so I think uh is there anything else on the agenda that you wanted to discuss while we're here or the only other thing that I want to just get on a record on with since we have Amy on the phone is canceling next the next meeting which would fall that on Thanksgiving Day so that's under the schedule yeah that's under the the discussion of dates and schedules just to formally cancel that meeting unless we want to postpone it to another date but I don't know when else we would have it before the 13th so I think it'd be best to formally cancel that meeting so December 13th okay so I guess I should take a motion to to cancel the meeting on the 27th I'm not sure if we have to but since we've been a quarrel as well so I I think I heard Amy say I make a motion to cancel the November 27th meeting I did I did say I thought so the Thanksgiving Day that is yeah and I think I heard Terry second I second that all in favor I opposed all right so the next meeting is the 13th motion to adjourn motion to adjourn it's tough one is just you too they have to make motions in second because I don't even adjourning isn't even on the agenda it's really that's okay we I I'll put it under other business this should be easy enough to to record just kidding and I heard Terry second that motion so all in favor I I hi we are adjourned thank you thank you thank you yeah it's just two of us and you on the phone sorry I had to call you


part with the demobilization of the paramilitaries in the medium commands and the threat with the FARC can be effectively in the medium commands that they will not find a way of integration or efficient there we have a point of important vulnerability we also ask in the recommendations that there are experiences of public policy that we will have to review again in Colombia and at the beginning of the 90s many victims have a very positive memory of the National Rehabilitation Plan which was an attempt of public policy that recognized the need to develop investments of economic type infrastructure of social type of community organization for the territories that were more abandoned or disintegrated that experience even people feel today because it says it lasted very little and also was part of the interlocution with the state that we lost the Colombian rural country claims that after 1990 when the economic opening began the state dismantled all the institutionality that it had to dialogue with the rural country we had a very strong institutionality around the National Rehabilitation Plan there was a series of institutions that people said I know I have an interlocutor there and after the economic opening all of that was dismantled and the rural country was abandoned so that is part of the wide range of recommendations we do self-criticism and we made the recommendations we need more productivity to follow them because the victims tell us at the end of the testimony and it is about the follow-up and the implementation of them that we consider that our testimony has value thank you let's open it to the floor yes back and then in front thank you Santiago I'm going to make this question in Spanish since it's directed to Marta Nubia previously you spoke of that clamour of the victims of calling things by their names the attack along with the preparation of the report and the attack of course do you think that the director of President Juan Manuel Santos called the language contradicts it in some way for example the idea to stop calling international, conventional acts of terrorism as a terrorist let's do several Natalia or do you have one over there Toni's on that side while she's going down Natalia Tejada from the World Bank since the question is for Marta Nubia and Andrés I'm going to formulate it in Spanish we've talked about a type of justice a particular type of justice that's why we call it transitional that definitely looks for something looks for something beyond the punishment looks for something beyond the punishment and looks to give clearly a reparative intention to that justice that satisfies the victims and that allows us to deal with the past to leave it in the past and in that apparently reconciliation and all the mechanisms of transitional justice existing and reconciliation as if they didn't take very well that word that almost didn't like within the context of the scenario for all the difficulty of defining it to put it into practice but it's so necessary to name something that the country also asks and then I wanted to suddenly that you commented about what is that potential because evidently apparently what we've touched on so much is that there is a potential to create conditions of coexistence call that political reconciliation national, interpersonal there are some potentialities in the mechanisms of transitional justice what we've talked about here of the real commissions how to potentialize the possibility of reconciliation in the practices of the mechanisms of transitional justice what happens there what would we have to do in terms of speeches what type of communication what type of interaction what type of relationship allows us to increase that potential for coexistence and reconciliation of transitional justice Thank you Thank you for the question I think that when we talked about the symbolic force of naming things and the power of some kind of moral justice that it has we attended a clamor of the victims to confront the deep stigmatization of the victims and I think that was basically the search In the process of mobilization of the paramilitaries a lot of things are worth having as an example of the power of language I remember in an audience in a free version that there was a judge one of the paramilitaries said down to the bandit and the judge forced him to say I murdered a person in a state of indefense very, very important when I talk about the power of naming things by their name is forcing them to recognize that there was violence forcing them not to justify themselves or to blame the victim and that is a huge effort sometimes the same mobilized need to say it, repeat it so that they fall into account of what they are doing in a sexual way with, for example, the declarations of Hernán Giraldo in Magdalena he did not admit that they called rape to the sexual practices that he committed with nine years, eleven years and he did not admit that they called rape because the children had been recognized by him so it was hard to admit it these are cultural patterns of a long time we all have fallen in justifications in banalizations we do not condemn a murder but depending on who is the victim there is no radical condemnation if I condemn death I condemn murder if it depends on who killed him and why he killed him then I pronounce or I shut up and I think that is what we refer to the language the specific question that you I think it has to do with try to decrease the social polarization with try to decrease at this moment also the exacerbation that has the use of certain terms towards violence and I think it is necessary and that does not imply to disguise things that does not imply false languages I think it is necessary in this country and it is necessary for me for teachers, for all citizens for the armed actors we have a deeply warrior language we have a deeply polarizing language so that call not only for the armed actors it is for all of us who are involved in the war and I would say a little bit in front of your question that seems so important to me communities give us impressive lessons if you really have the capacity the possibility to open your ears to lower the arrogance that sometimes gives us the academy the measures we go to the communities saying that's how it was done in South Africa that's how it can be done here the communities propose not only the video that was invited to see Andrés the wisdom that is there in the proposals of coexistence because the people in the last identify the suffering that they have lived and in the fan as I say to live to be able to live I would say that in Colombia there is the treatment of the past that the indigenous communities do they tell us that the past is gone to close to close and to heal sometimes we don't even think about it so this possibility of opening to listen in a society that is deeply diverse in the cultural avoid importing un-contextualized proposals I mean a proposal if you don't recognize the cultural marks then listen with a certain sensitivity also all in perspective of that cultural characteristic can be very useful to think of a transitional justice to the Colombian as such I would know what to think sorry I would add about the concern that we have about the language I would say that we have to have some considerations the euphemisms not only have been used by the paramilitaries or state agents, they have also been used by guerrillas it is clear that a kidnapping is a kidnapping and a retention for example that when there is an interpellation because the guerrilla says I used the cylinder bomb and my intention was not to give it to the community but to reach the objective that it was a police station then I call it collateral we say those are issues when you name something as collateral you are saluting the responsibility or the intentionality and you can interpell saying the use of a non-conventional weapon that had precision problems is enough to tell you you can't tell me that in your calculation it wasn't that that could happen it could be that that wasn't your objective but you can't deny me for having made use of the medium that wasn't my final objective when we made the Bojaya report what we noticed with great horror was to realize that it wasn't a pipeta that falls in the wrong place but had been launched two before and after that other and the interception of the communications the guerriller that was with the platform was telling the commander commander, if you are in the middle of the civil population it doesn't matter the priority is the military the priority is keep doing it so even in those cases those are the examples for the collateral damage that you can't hide in terms of recognition of responsibility the same thing that happens with the retention when mentioned I say retention instead of kidnapping I'm hurting the dignity of the victim because they are making me they are decorating me something that doesn't have to do with what happened with the issue of terrorism in the great difficulty that we found is that when I think in the way in which the general situation of the violence of the armed actors in the year in the 2000s when they called a terrorist threat what happened in Colombia instead of armed conflict the practical effect that occurred was that there were only victims of the guerrilla and there were no victims of the others and the notion of terrorism also ended up having a use more than to capture concrete phenomena of reality to escalate, because someone told us with all reason, terrorism is also a massacre and terrorism are also other forms of violence so the political use of the concept of terrorism itself has contributed the same to draw situations or capture situations and that specific effect in the 2000s of the denial of a fact that we later recognized that it is the fact that in the conflict there is the state that there is the military group that there are the guerrillas so about that topic of language those are my considerations about what you propose of reconciliation with the topic of reconciliation it happens that the expression has been very immediate by the religious topic so the religious topic puts a load that links a lot the reconciliation to forgiveness and it links it in a way in which the load ends up in the victim in what sense? in the sense that the religious construction that is made of the term makes the victim two things one, when they ask you for forgiveness your act of generosity is to give it so the victim should be able to do what he wants forgive me the expression and decide because what is forgiven are crimes it is a family that lost it is a missing there is something in forgiveness when you have that religious connotation is that when they put the load as a victim it is impossible or in some way they force you to renounce something that is normal you can already feel anger pain there is a series of emotions that contain you when they ask you for forgiveness and the second is what Marta said who better to ask for forgiveness that's where it starts and the third very important with reconciliation is that many times it has been founded if we do not recognize what has happened and the idea of reconciliation is very impregnated by the idea of having to go through that violent past to overcome it without recognizing it and there is a dimension of invisibilization that is also a very hard path to travel for the victim because sometimes in the notion of reconciliation you forget that the human drama that is behind and to deny to the victim the expression of a set of emotions to which he has the right I think the subject we like to talk more about coexistence because as Juan said in his intervention Juan Mendes with a lot to be true reconciliation is not that we all love each other it is the possibility that the perpetrator can recognize the facts that the perpetrator should do something of the importance of the perspective of restorative justice to prepare the damage and that we can continue in the social scene dialogando sin matarnos but do not ask the victim an act let's say of detachment because the victim is the one who has lost everything in fact one in many spaces with reflection we said the surprising that it is often to see how the victims are able to pass the fastest page of what the victims do someone said but how can they do it and for me the answer is obvious someone heard him fighting and it seemed obvious to me at the end of the day he gave me a blow and I gave him another we were hit in the war both of us we washed our sins with blood the victim does not have how to return the blow he received then the victim what he expects is a symbolic gesture and his great bet is precisely when I talk about recovering the word and there is the importance and how do you pray? if I do not return the blow with blood I return it with the word what is your gesture? it has to be the word it has to be an act of moral subordination so that we can continue then I think all those elements are marked around the subject of that's why we talk about coexistence it seems a little better than reconciliation the subject of memory and in fact part of our challenges as a center have been to make the Colombian society understand that memory is an ally for peace we can not find peace about negation or the occult but it has to be about recognition in some dialogue that we had about the Bastalla in Switzerland a French academic said something that seemed very revealing to us and he said try to hide the memory and she will return then face it because she will return she will return sooner or later then there is in it a work of the expression of recognition if one manages to take the component of forgiveness the notion of reconciliation or of oblivion I think it opens a different path but those charges are already part of the assumptions let's say how the society moves and the Colombian society as it has shown many of its work Gonzalo Sánchez always resolved many of those violent conflicts from the idea of very broad mystias and very broad oblivion I think that is also in the political culture in the Colombian culture it remains and installed in a very strong way an autobiography and she wrote I think that the power of memory to create change is kind of laid out in that quote so I just wanted to read that I'm going to try and this is a very to try, and this is a very humble attempt, to summarize just a few of the challenges that have come out during the day today. And what I would ask is that you each think about what the takeaways are that you found in today. And I'll start out and then I'll open it to the floor and maybe just do a quick round of what are the challenges that you see, and I'm sure I'll have missed a lot of them so there'd be a lot left for you to say as well. I think one challenge we've heard is truth telling is that truth telling in Columbia has been an experience of denunciation and polarization and the need to rethink the conceptualization of truth telling as something, there was a book I remember that was called Memoria Consentil de Futuro. How do you channel these memories and these truth telling efforts toward the future? Toward a future that the word reconciliation we've talked about is very debatable. But how do you think about it in a positive frame as leading the society toward a place where violence is not going to return? The importance of language and words, that's come out, the inadequacies of the categories that we have to describe victims, to describe descapacitados. I mean all the kind of negative images that we have, the negative words that we have to describe people whose rights have been violated. But somehow the words that we have leave the person to blame and we need new language for these things. We need to be aware of our blind spots and I think this is a real challenge and the willingness to engage in public debates and to hear critiques is one way that we can come to recognize what our blind spots are and I really admire in that sense, the work and the approach of the historical memory group and center in their willingness, in their seeking out actively constructive criticism. I mean they don't just say okay we have blind spots and keep going, they say okay here it is tell us where the blind spots are and I think they invite the academic community in particular to assist them in seeing where they're not getting it right and trying to do better. I think the erasures that Kimberly talked about are a major challenge. The violence against men, the violence against women and children, the next generation of children that have been completely absent from all of the discussions around transitional justice. The question of coding, as you think about a truth commission's work, how do you make sure you're coding it in a way that you can recapture what those trends are? The question of protections, we had a wonderful question and I would have loved to have more time to get answers from the audience about what protective measures have been set up in other contexts for human rights defenders, for people who come forward to testify, for those who try to claim their rights or their lands. The challenge of how to keep transitional justice from being just a legal mechanistic process, how do you integrate what David called active social forces into the process from the beginning? In memory projects, monuments, memorialization, truth commissions, education, culture in the arts as well as trials. The challenge of whether you might need different kinds of truth telling processes for different kinds of crimes and I think the issue of sexual violence and gender based violence as well are areas where perhaps the public scenarios to tell your story may not be adequate, they may not do anything for the victims, they may create new victimizations. It may be that the kind of reconciliation as well will need to be different for different crimes. Who needs to be reconciled with whom? I think that's often a really big question for women victims of sexual violence. It may be that they need to be reconciled with their families because the stigmatization against them is so strong and so powerful that it really has less to do about confronting a perpetrator and more to do about how can I recapture my life and my dignity and move forward. I think the challenge of raised expectations is one that we're going to be seeing emerge more and more as those who are invited to share their testimonies believe that maybe they're being heard sometimes for the first time and have certain expectations of what that means in terms of practical reparations or some sort of remedy for what they've been through. A huge challenge for Columbia is the implementation in general. Implementation of recommendations and follow-up we've seen with the victims and land restitution law has been far from successful. Recommendations made in the Bastilla, the lack of follow-through, the lack of mechanisms for advocacy to make sure that follow-through takes place, the lack of monitoring to see where progress is being made. I think that those are very worrisome indicators for what we have to expect from a peace accord. Implementation of a peace accord, if we haven't been able to get it on the victims and land restitution, we haven't been able to get it on the different historical memory projects, how can we expect that magically we're going to get it on peace accords? That's an area that really needs to be worked and civil society groups need to really get themselves together. It's rather ironic because for the last three years, society has been saying it's not going fast enough. We need an accord and now we find ourselves potentially at six months from having an accord and people are not ready. There's so much work to be done to get ready for the accord and to be ready to make sure that it's implemented. I think also a challenge is for the Truth Commission, maybe a lesson learned from the experience of the Historical Memory Center is the importance of having some sort of a plan of distribution and thinking about organizational advocacy structures that can help move those recommendations but also get the information and the analysis out into the public more quickly and more deeply. And that raises I think another challenge that we haven't talked about today which is the challenge of saturation. How do you ensure that these stories are heard and that people don't either move and you may be able to move past denial but how do you make sure that people don't just close their ears to it because they've heard it all before.  You can't be moved over and over and over and over and over again without it having some impact. So how do you deal with the psychological impact of just the vastness of the violations that have been committed? And I think David also laid out a number of political and moral challenges of public deliberation and a number of our speakers today have underscored the importance of having spaces where people can talk about these things. And this also has to do with I think one of Michael's points that there's a certain self-censorship that has taken place because of fear. How do you begin to get people to allow themselves to think more freely and then express themselves as well? And some of that is creating a safe environment. And I think Juan's comments about the integral nature of human rights and peace kind of speak to that point. If you have an environment where people aren't afraid that they're going to be carted off to jail or attacked or killed or receive death threats for speaking out when something's not right, you need that kind of environment to be able to sustain the peace. So I would like to maybe open it to gaps that I've left out or other comments that anyone would like to make about takeaways that you have or new things that you've heard today that you haven't heard before that have either changed your thinking process or given you something new to think about. Actually, I'm afraid I have been instructed that we go into overtime at five o'clock and we don't have a budget to pay for the overtime. So with that, I think I will call that the closure for the day and invite you to go out in the halls and talk out there. I'd like to really thank all of our speakers and particularly our guests from the Historical Memory Center for a really stimulating day. And I'd like to thank all of you who have been here for hours throughout the day listening and asking questions and thinking for your presence here and your participation. And we all hope that the Peace Accord in Columbia is signed soon and that it actually translates into real change on the ground. Thank you very much for coming.


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