Who can understand English? Can you raise your hands? Okay. Who can understand Spanish? Because we'll have both. Tendremos ambos lenguajes en esta charla. I'm going to talk in English, and then Fred is going to give his testimonial in Spanish. Así que yo hablaré en inglés, y Fred luego va a hablar en español su testimonial. Así que this is a bilingual talk. Así que va a ser un poco de bien. My name is Karen. I am from Women's Technology Peru. I work at Bermont Source, and this is the unicorn talk. So I know that it's important for women to get into technology, and this is a talk I wanted to get out there to encourage more women to do something in our industry. So basically, where does the name come from? It comes from my first days at Bermont Source. I was talking to one of my colleagues, female developer, and we were talking, yes, I do project management, but I also code, and I like, I do troupon, and I also do Ruby and things like that, and she was like, oh my God, you are a unicorn. You are not supposed to exist, you know? And that's where the unicorn name comes from, and I'm supposed to, I was challenged to have a unicorn hat for this talk, but I couldn't get it, so sorry. That's my Twitter handle and my Drupaloric name. If you want to contact me, that's my email as well. Like I said, I work at Bermont Source, which is a very diverse company. There is so many women in there, and from all ages, it's great. So my story begins where I bet most of your stories begins if you are female, I know.  No, you just choose because you like it, it's your passion, and day one on the classes, you find out that there is only like six women in the room from 30 people.  So this is my story, this is why I got into this cause, you could say, this is my cause, I wanted to make for more women to get into these events to feel safe, to feel encouraged, so they could participate and be more visible. And this is why we decided to form a community, we started as a community, we are now going ahead of that, but we started as a community, and we did the first women branded event in Peru. I know this is a thing in the United States and Europe, but this is not so known in Latin America, and two years ago, this was the first we did in Peru. We didn't think it was going to be like that much accepted because you know, the first comment you get from the guys is, is it only for women, why cannot participate, why is it pink, you know, things like that, but we got around 70 people attendance, and it was really good. The main commentary on this event was, I didn't know we were so many, you know, it's good to talk to other women and to talk about discuss the confrontations we have at work or how to solve the problems we each one have. So it was a good first experiment, and we decided that we needed to do more of that. So that's how women in technology Peru was born, and I'm going to give a summary of events we've done, so you can get an idea. This is the first women in Drupal event we did in 2014. It was done, it was really funny because we decided to do it on a Saturday and then one week later we found out that Drupal camp was on that same Saturday. So we decided to join both events, that the guys from the Peru community were all passing through the classroom because they wanted to meet girls. It was funny. I mean, they also helped us do the installation because it was sometimes, you know, per computer it's different and so they help us a lot. But that was the first one. And so on the right you have the women in Drupal event we did in Bolivia. I'm going to talk more about that later. But we also have other technologies. We not only do Drupal, which I'll talk more about. But so the first question that comes to mind is, why is it important to bring more women into our industry? We know we are low on the numbers because we see them.  So why is this important? I don't know if you're familiar with the programmer culture. Brogrammer, it is the macho programmer culture. Alguna es familiar con la cultura de los programmers, los machos y los desarrolladores, no? Okay, so I'm going to show you a little bit of Dutch culture just so you can get your rage going on. This is, I don't know if you've known this site.   I know, so what's the first thing that comes to mind? This is a joke, right? This is not supposed to be real, right? I mean, I guess the guys who created this startup thought of it as a joke first and then they decided, well, no, it's about a business model, right? We should go ahead and do it. So it's an actual business if you go and Google it. So the thing is, why is this acceptable in our industry? Why is this not something that gets shut down, basically? And what can we do to make it different? And this is what the whole movement of getting more women into technology is about because it has become so mainstream that it's not only on the tech industry, it's getting known across all the different areas and media, so this is like a cover that was, I think, last week or a couple of weeks ago on the news week and basically repeats itself. There is a change that needs to go on, right? Something needs to change. And it's not something that only happens in the adult or professional business, but it gets shown across also educational, instructional children, for example. So this is an example of a Barbie book which teaches that women can also, the girls can also be a computer engineer by telling them that if they want to program, they need to involve their male programmers friends because the Barbie is not good enough to go on her own. So things like these slips through the cracks. Sometimes we don't see them, but this is something really important because girls who read this story are not in an age that can judge whether or not they're good or not. So this basically propagates the same stereotypes that we have currently in the industry. But talking more about serious reasons why it needs to be changed is the rise of the she economy which means that women are getting more and more power to purchase or acquire products in the economy. And what happens if more than 50% or the growing power that decides which products to buy isn't involved in the process of building them? So you have an issue where you're building products for to cater or to market to a particular industry or sector and it doesn't sometimes have the same vision. It's not aligned. So that's one of the things. And also it's because it's important to have diversity and I was talking with Nick about this yesterday and he would mention this example of in Drupal Beach they went to heard about the constellations, how they inca saw the constellations in history and it was like usual traditional cultures see the stars and they form pictures with the stars and that's constellations. But for the inca culture it was the opposite. They didn't see the stars. They saw the black spots or the dark clouds. So they actually saw images in the dark areas of the sky and so it was opposite than the traditional. So it is important to have these different approaches or different visions of things of the world. And so I did this quick review of the speakers in the Drupal Con. We have six sessions lead by women from 36 sessions I got. So around 17% of the speakers are female or sessions lead by female. So it means that this should be around 50% or at least 30%, right? This needs to grow up more. And so I encourage the women in the room who haven't given a talk probably in the future to try to do that as well. So I'm gonna show you a video of why this is economically important. Not only, you know, on philosophy, why? So it's a great opportunity right now, right? If the number of jobs in the tech industry is tripling and we don't have enough workflow, workforce, it means that there is an option for us to grow quicker and accelerate our professional growth, right? If we get more women into this field as well. So we need to encourage outreach not only to women who are already in the industry but to schools and high school girls who are about to choose a career. So they can also think of the technical field as an option for them. So what we've done on with Peru is basically we focus on four pillars, four columns. We do tech training, we do teach them how to code, HTML, drew up another technical field. But we also focus on networking and entrepreneurship because sometimes we need that human side as well for us to connect and collaborate. And we also do outreach teaching kids how to code so they can embrace a new culture basically. This is the prayer that started it all. We went to Kahanmaraka, which is in the mountains of Peru, teaching for a whole weekend girls how to do their web pages. Mind you, this is an area where the internet is not good so we had to do a lot of offline processes. But so there's the girls doing their mock-ups or their wireframes for their sites. We've also done startup weekends, events where they're encouraged to fund their own tech company which is also important because the tech funders, they're not main tech funders females so we need more of them. We've also done Rails girls, I know. We've done the women tech makers which was the first big event we did. We had over 300 people attending. We also participate in international panels like in Grace Hopper. And the problem that we are doing right now that it's the first one we are doing. It's eight weeks, we are teaching high school girls how to do web development. It's an eight week program with three times a week classes where we teach not only HTML and CSS but who go through the whole arrangement of how to program, how to do Arduino and get their first line of code out there. So those are the girls getting excited because they got Hello World on the screen for the first time. We are also doing activities with kids teaching them how to go in scratch and how to play games that help them see a picture of a more logical perspective. And also we do Women in Drupal which is events trying to get more women into our community basically. This is the first Women in Drupal panel we had in Drupal, Pichu. This was a great opportunity to get the world out there that the Drupal community was encouraging women and welcoming them into our sector. And on the right, this is the event we did in Bolivia where we talk a workshop and inviting women to learn about Drupal and get their first website up and running. What's important on this is that not the women that come to our events are not only technical women, sometimes they come from the marketing side or the journalism side. And it's important for them to be as welcoming as easy to teach this workshop so they can get their own website going on without having to do a lot of coding experience for the first time. These workshops are aimed at getting the basics done, the site building and putting the theme out there so they can get at least started with a basic configuration for their site. So main point for this is don't stay silent, do something. If you think we are in a bad situation or we can improve a lot, I mean do something about it. If you wait for someone else to do something, nothing will get done. So that's what we learned. We were talking about doing events for women for two or three years previously before we decided to do something. So my encouragement for you is to do something and also to raise your voice because sometimes when we are in a team that's full of other developers that have a more competitive attitude, it is easy to stay silent and not share your ideas, not share your thoughts. This has happened to me and other women that I've talked to where they have the typical horror story. They were in a meeting with managers and their team and they were discussing how to get a solution, how to implement a solution. And they gave an idea, they were just starting, they shyly gave their own idea of how they could fix the problem but she wasn't hurt. Like everyone ignore her because she's just starting. And 15 minutes later another guy says the same thing and that's the solution that gets decided on to try and implement. So it's important for us to be more confident. When we propose solutions, when we share ideas, when we share thoughts, we need to be confident in what we do. Even if we don't really feel it inside, there is a saying that says, fake it, do you make it? So you need to do that exactly. So sometimes I joke that it feels like we are battling with dragons because the guys can be so demanding and they have their own culture and they're different bonding than us. But it's important to be as well as a strong person even if you don't feel it really inside. Try to fake it and feel secure and confident out there. So there's a name for this and it's called imposter syndrome and it happens to everyone of, well not everyone but most of us, for example, I'm an introvert even if it doesn't look like it, I'm an introvert. So I have trouble with this. I battle with this every day. You have no idea how much it took me for me to stand up here and talk to you and present and share and this is how I convinced myself to go out and do these things is because I tell other girls to do it so I cannot be shy and I cannot stay silent and I cannot do nothing because if I tell or teach to other girls to do it, I should do it as well. So and it happens not only in the tech industry but it also happens in other areas and I don't know if you know Lupita Nyong'o, she won an Oscar, it happened to her as well. So it is important for us to get the support of other people telling us that the work or the ideas we have are important and we need to share them with the world and that is why I have my co-presenter with me which is Freddy, he is an amazing guy. He was the guy who brought me into Drupal. He brought me into the mid-apps and he is also the guy who helps us in women engineering, all you prove, encouraging us and preparing the curriculums and everything we need to do. So I'm going to ask him to share his testimonial of what he thinks from a male's perspective of why this is important and this is going to be in Spanish, so I'm sorry. Hi, yeah. Entonces para mí dejar las cosas para mañana si no importa mucho hay cosas que uno tiene que a veces hacer. Entonces, advertencia, este es un poco utópico, loco y un poco de cosas así. Yo soy un poco loco, no muchas cosas locas, me tides, pero bueno, alguna vez cuando yo estuve estudiando cuando estaba estudiando en el instituto me hablaron de Drupal para hacer webs y yo preguntaba qué es Drupal y no sabía qué era Drupal. Después al tiempo me hablaron de Linux y empezaron a hablar un montón de términos y cosas más que me imagino que muchos de ustedes se han encontrado. Okay? Y entonces uno empieza a buscar en Internet contenido para aprender o para entender. Y entonces se cruza con un montón de locos que dicen que hacen eventos, charlas, comunidad, que hacen talleres atuitos, imprimen libros y todo lo hacen free y se reúnen y los fines de semana van a una provincia e intentan difundir con más gente esto que los tiene medio locos. Y entonces uno se pregunta qué cosa es esto, y en qué uno se está metiendo o incluso para los que han venido primero a este evento dirán, oye, hay tantas cosas aquí que hablan cosas raras, quiénes son, toda esta gente que habla sobre cosas que a veces uno normalmente no está acostumbrado a escuchar y parece como si uno dijera, esto se ve raro. Y entonces uno termina cayendo en una especie de cosas emocionantes y lo quieren ver así, intensas. Encuentra gente uno que les sorprende y a veces uno piensa si esto es real, ok? Pero al final uno termina siendo feliz. Yo mucho de lo que sé o lo que he aprendido lo tengo gracias a la comunidad. Básicamente eso cambió mucho mis perspectivas desde muchas maneras, conocer mucha gente de diferentes países, culturas, mucha gente de este mundo open source y de la comunidad en sí, es como una fantasía, pero aún uno lo termina siendo feliz. Al punto que uno termina viviendo de esto y es, haces su vida con esto y trabajas en esto y lo que comenzó como un hobby terminó siendo tu manera de vivir. Y entonces intentas invitar amigos, amigas, a gente con quien compartir lo que estás viviendo. O a veces algunas personas te dicen oye, qué es tu fin de semana que estás en cosas raras o qué estás publicando en tu Facebook, qué es eso de Drupal, qué es eso de PHP, qué es eso de enseñar programación.  Pero en un salón normal de programación en Perú casi todos somos hombres y a veces somos un poco rudos es decir, que somos un poco demasiado testosterones, ¿no?  Entonces, en el equipo incluso cuando yo conocía Karen, trabajaron en Drupal la primera vez que la conocí el equipo damos todos chicos y Karen era la problema en ello y para nosotros Karen no programaba porque en Perú se asume que las chicas no programaban por más que estudien ingeniería solo hacen QA o clicks y ya está y entonces bueno, como que le dices bueno, ya eso lo haré cuando pueda y después descubres que ellas también quieren aprender o hacer más cosas y entonces uno empieza a intentar cambiar las cosas tienen que mejorar de alguna manera y entonces empiezan ellas a hacer eventos a reunirse, a juntarse y muchos de los chicos que estamos metidos en esto de la comunidad y en estas cosas fantasiosas del open source y de crecer juntos e intentamos apoyar desde donde tenemos y entonces se han hecho muchas cosas durante los últimos dos años que hemos estado apoyando las chicas y la pregunta que siempre me hacen porque es raro siempre que me dicen a veces en algunas presentaciones cuando ellas no pueden ir y entonces la gente me mira raro porque piensan que de repente puedo hacer que ello estoy en algún tipo de trastorno pero no es eso, simplemente es que me apasiona el tema de poder aprender y crecer entonces uno evoluciona y quizás uno lo ve distinto cuando se vuelve padre de niñas entonces ahí la cosa cambia un poco y entonces ellas o ellos te preguntan, tus hijos te preguntan en que trabajas y vuelve la misma pregunta qué es lo que estás haciendo y vuelve lo mismo como les dije, papá que es Drupal papá que es Linus, papá que estás haciendo con esa gente y entonces viene el tema de querer acompañarlo a uno siempre los niños quieren acompañarlo y contigo y todo lo demás o incluso te quiere ayudar porque a veces no sé esas cosas suelen pasar con los niños y entonces uno recuerda este mundo un poco agresivo y se pone a pensar qué tan buena es la cultura o el entorno que me rodea si es que a mi hijo a mi hijo o a mi familia le termina gustando el tema de la tecnología entonces igual uno piensa siempre en cambiar las cosas a mi me gusta contarles a mis hijos cuentos antes de dormir o me gusta contarles historias porque pienso que eso los motiva y les desarrolla la creatividad y entonces yo me imagino que cuando ellos estén más grande como todos tendremos preguntas y haremos lo mismo si tenemos alguna duda buscamos información buscamos algo que nos diga cómo comenzar sin los como ayer yo soy nuevo en Mac y estoy tratando de instalar algunas cosas entonces busco en internet y encuentro algún post algo que alguien hizo que yo puedo hacer o que puedo replicar y para mí es importante que existan historias de este tipo para mí es importante por ejemplo que hayan historias como la de Karen la de Andrea la de Steph la de Jessica y entonces eso hace incluso que la gente se motive más a sentir que no es una realidad extranjera o que es una realidad de otro país sino que son chicas que viven en la misma realidad que muchas de las chicas de ahora son en Perú y entonces sienten que no es tan lejano o tan distante hacerlo o aventarse o decir bueno conocerlas y entonces ocurre algo mágico ahí que es como que yo te puedo presentar Steph o la puedes conocer entonces este tema de tener a veces ídolos de barro o el estar que está muy lejos se disminuye y eso hace que la gente sienta una empatía un tema de crecimiento y entonces hacemos un montón de cosas locas y ahora bueno le estamos enseñando a niñas a programar y para mí eso es súper emocionante porque es como que sientes que de repente no estás cambiando todo el mundo pero en el ecosistema o en el entorno que te estás moviendo estás creando una cultura diferente quizás que en algún momento estas niñas cuando estés más grandes puedan ser ejemplos de otras niñas como lo que están haciendo Karen estas niñas le enseñarán a otras niñas y yo espero que eso pase con mis hijas y entonces yo me imagino que Mika se preguntará que cosa salvadora es esta por el tema de lo que yo no me he pido en todo este tema y quizás igual con miedos y todos se lance y descubra que no es tan imposible hacer algunas cosas y un bonus track como esto que les contaba yo me gusta lo que están haciendo las chicas y intentamos apoyarlas los chicos que estamos metidos en el tema para que hayan más historias de estas más chicas se motiven eso nos asegure a muchos de los padres que estamos metidos en temas de tecnología y tenemos hijas que el ecosistema en algún futuro o poco a poco sea más diverso y la diversidad nos ayude a todos a crecer y bueno como no nos pudimos esperar empezamos a hacer cosas con niños y estamos haciéndole enseñar a los niños a programar igual con la ayuda de las chicas con los chicos y bueno, es otra historia que en algún momento les terminaré de contar pero es muy emocionante como termina todo simplemente empezando a buscar y encontrando gente con quien conectar y con esto las cosas empiezan a cambiar gracias Freddy so yes, he jumped up the rabbit hole so what can you do if this is important to have what can you do and how can you improve our own community first thing is to start a small to start even at all and to join powers with other people and this is how it's important to have a team it's important not to do it alone it's important to talk to other people who have already been down that road to get information of how tips and recommendations how to do it and this is Veronica with she decided to do Women in Drupal event and she wanted some kind of guidance because she was so afraid of public speaking she was not sure to be able to do it alone and so I said to her ok let's I promise to you that I will be there so whatever the day that that Drupal camp in Bolivia it's going to be just share it with me in advance and I will travel to Bolivia with you and we'll do the workshop together and you'll see it's not that difficult it's going to be fun and you're going to enjoy it and you're going to be able to teach more of this and share more of these workshops and so we did the night before we were still working on the slides because you're always working on the slides until five minutes before the presentation and she was she was scared to death and I was telling her you know Veronica forget about this let's forget about the workshop tomorrow let's go have let's go and eat have dinner talk about it laugh about it there's no point in worrying about now because there is going to be issues there are always going to be issues you are not going to you are not going to be able to resolve everything right now you cannot imagine all these scenarios that are going to appear so we'll just deal with them as they come just put your armor and grab your sword and we'll fight it together once we get there so the main question that once comes when we start doing these events is do we do it only for girls or do we accept boys to come and this is the old dilemma because you want more girls to come but you have limited space and if you open it for everyone sometimes the boys can take more space and you want to encourage women to come so it's like a circle and the answer we have to approaches right the first one is we do it for everyone we put a lot of pink in it like the registration landing page everything is pink and pink and girly and boys just gets scared of that it's like pink will kill them so they decide not to participate or decide if they really really really want to go there so that's one of the approaches we have the other one is with the one we started with okay you can come a boy can come to the event but please invite a friend and that friend needs to be you know one girl's friend so she can learn with you as well and that was especially helpful when we just started because war didn't get out as quickly that we were doing this kind of events so as always our friends which are mostly male they get information much faster and they also want to participate so this encourage them to bring their friends, their girlfriends their sisters, cousins another thing is like freddy said the guys in the community are always always willing to help you so if you think that this is going to be a greater greater task and you are not alone please, please, please ask for help we are not supposed to we are not supposed to stop doing something just because we think we are alone this is the guys in the bolivia community helping us set up the computers for the servers this is the guys helping us in the python camp this is the guys teaching us in the ruby community every community in the technology is willing to help you especially, especially in the durable community so don't be afraid to reach out and ask for help even if you just want to ask for teachers because you may not feel like you are ready to teach you can also ask for someone else help and you can help them facilitate everything that's a good way to start the important thing is to start so what needs to happen right now you need to raise awareness of Drupal because most people know about WordPress and other platforms out there but not everyone know about Drupal so especially through with the female gender so you try to reach out to them and teach them about that so make sure you market your events or your workshops to that particular to that particular sector that they need not be from the technology industry just overcome the fear not everyone is out there to troll you they they are considerate people so if you make a mistake like if you are doing a demo and I don't know the server crashes or there is no internet people you understand that so it doesn't have to be perfect you just have to do it so always money always helps right so there are ways to get funding especially if you are just starting alone or with a small group first option is crowdfunding the community is always willing to put their own money in there I don't know how to say this in English but at least in Peru we would say that chanchita so you can get enough money to at least cover coffee breaks or like they need to have group subscription things like that you know it was really really really great to have the support of the community in the first time also reach out to companies because there are companies that want to get they are also caring about the diversity so you can reach out to companies and you can reach out to universities for the education so and there are also grants the group association has grants for encouraging these kind of events so if you feel like you need to have more money to support you in your event please ask for a grant and try to do something at least what we are used to say in the we maintain all of you Peru group is that we are so used to bootstrapping I cannot tell you how much money I want or what I want you tell me what you want to give me and I will tell you what I can make with it so it is not the best way but we've been used to that and so it's always important to start with what you have even if it's just ten dollars you know maybe that coffee break is not that necessary to have in your event so during the women in Drupal group where women all around the world share their stories and they have communications about things that are going in the community and if you have a local group that's dedicated to raising awareness to this issue also join it participate and if you say that you don't want to organize events there is also options that are not not necessary for you to start the group you can always mentor someone there are always people who need help or encouragement so you can always mentor your friends and try to get them to be to achieve a higher standard of what they think you can also volunteer for many of the events or many of the organizations from groups that are already doing something so that's also important I cannot tell you how many how much work there is in organizing an event or organizing groups there is so much going on all the time if someone volunteers just to move stuff from one room to the next one that's a big relief so everyone is welcome to help and if you don't want to spend your time you can always spend your money so look for your local groups people that are trying to do this and if you cannot spend time you can also donate this is part of the crowdfunding we are talking about and that's it this is a picture of me and Freddy no he's actually Freddy so I don't know if you have any questions or questions or comments, feedback, anything so this was to favor more women's events we are doing an event a normal Drupal Camp what are the best ways to invite women to have a women's track or just put it on the page that we are to put a code of conduct or what things favor that in our regular event of Drupal Camp there are more women it's a very good question we for example what we did in the last Drupal Camp was to do a basic introduction because many women don't know that there is a community so that's important marketing a track, even if it's just a session so that awakens the interest that there is a world beyond that bubble and can help one of the main things for a woman or in my particular case with my colleagues you arrive at the event or you see only photos of the events where there are only pure men and then you say this is not for me because I'm going to be there and I'm going to have to face with the massive testosterone that I mentioned, Freddy that sometimes it's very complicated and then you decide it's important to have the code of conduct and to let everyone know that it's a safe environment and that no kind of and respect respect or action respect or understanding is going to be ignored because it's also important for women to feel safe sometimes even the location of the event is important you have to think about what you're going to do because it's not the same for a woman to be mobile with the laptop in a zone that is sometimes for the baron so they are things that sometimes you have details that you have to take into account only for the girl to say yes, it's an event that could go I really liked the presentation I wanted to get involved from very young to the children because many times the children come with the initiative of the children and there comes a moment when they are cut and the children are playing next to the children with the cars or something, no, you don't play with that play better with the doll I don't know what so it's that break in the scheme on the other hand very short, my experience in the group of work I am the team leader in addition to programming I am the one who does the work interviews for the people who enter my team I am not the super girl nor the super programmer and my colleagues enter in very sophisticated debates sometimes and you can put medium-aggressive between them to find the best way to solve a problem but nevertheless I am the one through the observation who can do better the work or who is good to enter our team and who gives us the best skills while on the other hand my partner, my father whenever we do the interviews he does all the technical questions south javascript versioning this, that questions about his behavior of team work and for now it went well so many times we have to contribute we also have to put our boots after the night eat sometimes bad follow the law and all those things we have to show that we are in peace but we also have skills sometimes they don't have because we observe more about the behavior and that is very important to have a good work in the team I totally agree with that in fact today we were talking with Miriam with a team that brought her she is the only woman or you are the mother chicken or you are the witch of 71 or one or the other exactly the mother chicken they are skills sometimes complementary that we have and I think it's great that your father does the work and you do the other work because also the team collaboration the culture if it goes well in the team culture all that is important and sometimes one Hello, how are you? I am Maria Aurelia I come from Panama I have been very excited about what you have said about this honestly in my case I am a little different I have always worked with men and I have always been led by them I have always been a coach and all that and something I would like to contribute is that this is not just a matter of women everyone is afraid I have had to attend to boys from both sides in fact, girls are more kissing I think it is one thing that we have to break this that there is a lot of difference between women for me the truth is that it is like a breakfast, as we say I think we should focus a little more on the skills of one as a person not as if we are women or men or of some minority as a person we are brave men or women I think that is the most important it is great that they start from little because it is true one has to break from little the rules of the game that parents try to teach one that no, women fall thank God I did not have that differentiation my father actually treated me like my brother and in the same way I got to work in everything hey, we are human beings we have to contribute in everything we have to work together we have to do, some have more skills than others in certain things others are more technical others are more empathetic there is everything but if we start to break those barriers I think that as a whole community we will go much better it is the same dilemma that sometimes we find it is not about and that we are going to close it is only women it is about giving a safe environment of confidence to start and after you start you are already able to have more confidence in yourself it is not much about confidence and sometimes a group where only or the majority or is made women are more confident in the girls to be in a group where the majority is not and that is more or less it is not that we focus on you are a man, you are a woman this is different no, because in fact men are involved in the event they go to the event we have made events for girls where 70% were barons and these are things that happen but it is also something that is advancing the idea is that they participate more they are more visible they are more leaders so all kinds of help can improve there is one thing that I think it is also where the people feel comfortable today in Drupal it is no longer a place it is really a development process and as such here in Colombia, in my experience many women prefer not so much in terms of teaming or in terms of backend but prefer to do quality or marketing that will finally impact what is going to be implemented so finally I think that each one where they feel more comfortable is where to participate certainly bringing women will surely have a value because women are more oriented to details and other things for example in terms of usability or testing so I really I think that and it is that there is no difference between men and women for me it is simply a work team and as such we all work to get the best result I agree Hello, how are you? My name is Miriam something very important that I would like to highlight this part of breaking barriers the important thing is how to get to know what we know and express it with the men normally in a medical company precisely because of these details the visual part the part that the client will love so normally they say it looks nice and then you arrive with the client and they tell you that color was not so we see those details in a good way this has been an advantage for the company the fact of having women who are doing teaming because then they become a little more detail naturally we bring it then this reinforces the skills and well makes the interaction with the boys more comfortable because you explain to them what you need to look like this and you explain those details that later they can see and say ok I agree with you right now I met with many people who at the moment very few people know that I do front end but when you start to talk what you know and the techniques that you start to use and you share them then they show interest until then it's like they say hey what do you do how do you work and what process do you take but if you don't break that barrier of communication and the fear of trying to say what you know and the skills that you are developing or what you have then until that moment no one sees you then I think the important thing would be to break that communication barrier dare to say things and well share them with someone else because it really serves you knowledge here if you stay is to share it as well as we do with the community and I think we are already in time so thank you very much for being here and after that thank you


Do you think somewhere in the world, there's a guy with the last name, Sung? And he named his kid, Sam?  Please follow us on Instagram! And Twitter! There was something else I wanted to tell you. What? Then were me. Oh, ring the bell. BAM! Hashtag notification squad. Um, today... We'll be reacting to, uh, another Samsung ad. We've reacted to one before. We haven't. I thought it said Samsung baby voice. Samsung baby! I'll link our, uh, our other Samsung ad right here. Woo! How did you do it? You sound like Almono. It's Bobby. It's, it's, it's, it's Bobby. I don't know who Bobby is. Bobby? Every time I sit on the pow. But this one's called the Samsung Bixby? Bixby voice assistant. Okay, so kind of like Siri, but the brother. This one is three minutes. And we now understand, because I asked this question before. These aren't commercials on television. These are the ads that are like thrown up on... Yeah, we all knew this.  Here we go! Is it going to make us cry? Kill a milling machine.  Her voice. Yeah, so I'm guessing that's real. And that mom really can't talk now. Did she still alive? Or did she? She went to the point where she can't talk, if that's really her. She had like a trait. Like eosophagus cancer or something like that. Yeah. Remove it. Wow. The film is inspired by the life of Miss Sonja, a patient suffering from a modern disease. Lose ability to move and speak. So she did all this in anticipation. Yeah, knowing it was coming. Kind of like Lou Gehrig's disease. Yeah. Yes, that's heavy. Wow. Wow. Yeah, that's... Yeah. And it also touches on something that is... This is better than your other sample. Yeah, it is the best one. Yeah, I mean, your other sample was very good. It was. But this one is... And this touches on something that is so... I'm so interested in. A lot of movies have touched upon this where we're talking about artificial intelligence and the line between things having a level of consciousness and our connectivity to things that...  From her mother. And what does that do to a human being emotionally, particularly, for example, in a grieving process? Yeah. When you... It's that mixed bag of if someone I loved, like if it was my dad, for example, who I want to hear his voice, but when he's gone, if I continue to hear his voice, especially not just a recording of it, this is like she's become Siri. You know, so you can ask fresh things and get fresh answers in the voice of the person who's no longer there to speak into your life. I love the potential challenges that brings up. Yeah, I would like to know if she's still around. Yeah. I'd also like to know how common this has become, how prevalent people are using this now, because ultimately, I think it's pretty freaking awesome. Yeah, it's great that you... Especially for a kid. A little. She can speak like that, which is great. I'm sure that she learned, they both learned sign language and stuff like that so they could communicate like that, but that was the fact that, which is a true story, Sam's like did help them out with this so she can still speak to her child and their child could hear her voice. Right. It's beautiful. Beautiful. It's a great ad. Great, great ad. And yeah, I'm about that close to getting the tissues. I mean, the tears are there, but I'm... Yeah. Because I would, with my... If I had that kind of a disease and that technology was around, I would absolutely take advantage of it so that my kids could hear my voice. Yeah. You guys. You know, it's funny. I would do the opposite because I wouldn't want to hear your voice. Ha ha ha!


Let's get going. For yours. All right. Hello, everyone. Thank you for joining. This is the TSE weekly call. This is an open call. Anybody can join, listen in or participate. There are two conditions to requirements to doing so. The first one is to be aware of the antitrust policy. The notice of which is being displayed on the screen. If you're online using the client. Some client. And the other piece is the code of conduct. So just behave. Being a decent human being and everything will be fine. But do not be shy if you have things to say. This is really meant to be inclusive and as people join in and participate. So. With that being said, let's get going. So we have an announcement. Somebody added this. I have to, I don't. Dan added that. I just happened to come across it. Well, I was finding something else in the community calendar. So this is something that the marketing committee does to reach out to our projects. And this was in response to. Some maintainers feeling disconnected from how their projects were being marketed by hyper ledger. But I think after Jessica got this call going, there hasn't been a lot of participation. So I think it's really in the project's best interests, the maintainers in particular to help guide how their projects are being marketed. I know that. Stereotypically a lot of developers don't want to engage in that project. They want to prioritize it, but then it seems like they still feel welcome to. Feel disenfranchised by not showing up. So do yourself a favor and show up and explain what you think is cool about your project in that call. Yep. So this has been mentioned a few times. The ideal scenario is for each project to identify one person, at least to represent them as much as possible. So we can leave it to each project to figure this out, but I agree with Dan. I second this motion to get people engaged. And I find it quite interesting for that matter. So. I don't think people should see that as a boring task to do. All right. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, so you can see that as a boring task to do. All right, thanks. Okay. Quality reports. There is hyperledge IND was submitted last week, barely before the call. People didn't have much chance to review it, but I haven't seen any issues being raised. So I'll just pass it unless somebody wants to say anything about it right now. project for the borough project, the report for the borough project. So please keep an eye on the project update calendar and fill out your reports in due time. So with that being done, we don't have much to discuss, but the first item is the common maintainers management policy item. Following up the discussion, Tracy did submit a PR against the Hyperledger repo, the TSE repo, and with a proposal on the guidelines on what could be expected to be found in the maintainers file. Some of us have been commenting and I would strongly encourage all the TSE members to carefully look at it and approve if they are okay with it so that we can merge it and call it done. I don't know if anybody wants to discuss any of it now. I mean, Tracy, you have the pen, maybe you want to say something? So I just I took an attempt at putting this together, tried to not be too prescriptive in what the document should say and contain. So the only thing that is really a must is the fact that you have a maintainers file at the top level of the project. That maintainers file could be a markdown or a rest file. So I just shortened it to maintainers in this document, which you can see kind of reflected at the very top. And then everything else in here is really a should and guidelines around how the format should look and those sorts of things. I just saw your comment come in on GitHub. I'll update this table here to reflect that your LFID is not necessarily your chat ID, which surprises me, but good for you that you managed to get that changed. So yeah, really, I think the only piece that may be something for us to discuss at this moment is whether or not we want to be more prescriptive around the how to become a maintainer section. Arno, I think you were mentioning that this seems like something that every maintainers file should have. And I had made it as a should. So I guess just some some requests for feedback from the rest of the TSE on this particular section, whether or not we want the how to become a maintainer as part of the maintainers file. Yeah, so let me clarify my position on that particular point.  And I think we indeed should have that documented and fairly easy to find. And it's, you know, I think there are two ways to get that done. One is to document it within the maintainers file directly. Or as some projects have it today, I think most projects have it elsewhere today, is to simply add a link in the maintainers file that points to where your policy is. But I do think we need to be transparent about what the process is and not make it hard to find. Because, you know, even when I was, I started on this, this task, I was just trying to figure out what the different projects were doing. And some projects I couldn't even figure it out. And I was like, where is that documented? And then, you know, I know Dan was of the opinion that, well, people get to the point where this becomes relevant should be familiar enough with the repository structure, they would figure out where it is. But I'm not really happy with that answer. I have to admit. Anybody? I just want to express my appreciation that this is put together and has the company affiliation column. And I'm interested in how many projects are using scope. I know Fabric has people who are maintainers only for docs, for example. I know that Sawtooth has some, they don't use formal scopes. I'm interested in like how much or how important that is. So, Raya, I'll say that Ursa also uses scope and we use it for our review policies too. So we denote people that have like, you know, mathematical background. And so we have, you know, special policies for reviews that sort of edit the math of crypto. They have to get, you know, extra reviewers. And they have to get reviewers that are like mathematical cryptographers. So we definitely use the scope. Okay. I think I was thinking too formally. As in like the GitHub's scoping feature. So I understand. Oh, sure. Okay. Yeah. So the scope here would be expressed as like a cryptographer or documentation, not as like a subdirectory of a thing. Generally, yes. Okay. Sorry, I misunderstood you there. No, no, I think I misunderstood Tracy. Yeah, but I think it's a good point to clarify. And maybe the document should be made so that it's clear what is meant that, you know, I think we can be fairly flexible again on this. And I, you know, from that point of view, I tend to agree with the, you know, the general direction Tracy took, which is really about, you know, providing guidelines as opposed to being really mandatory. And so this is an area where we could, you know, say, well, you could have a column that scope and then it's a bit up to its project to define how they use it. I don't think that hurts. Okay. But I suppose I could agree with that. I mean, if you don't use it, then do you need the column, I guess is the question, but no, the thing that I wanted to poke on though was this within the fabric project, we actually have, I think three or four different identifiers, you have your LF ID, you have your chat ID, you have your email, right, and your GitHub ID. And the reason that we have those is because essentially it's a means of figuring out how do I get to this person, right. And so LF ID is not chat ID. I want to make that clear. They're completely different. I don't know. I mean, Rai, you can weigh in on that. But as far as I know, there's no connection between the two at all. That was one question we were having. By default, it's the same. And this has led to issues like people with spaces in their names. But it is, it's related, it's not orthogonal. So, well, mine is my initials and my initials are not even represented in my LF ID. So, my guess is that in San Francisco, when we were sitting down in the lobby, you said change my name and I went in and changed it because I'm the person that's done all that. If you want your name changed, if anyone wants their name changed, you know, get in contact with me and I'll make it happen. So, I will make that change to include LF ID, chat ID and email columns. Obviously, they're optional, but we should have a mechanism for being able to contact said maintainer. Right. And that was, you know, when we were last, you know, last year, Salone brought up the issue that she couldn't find any maintainers and didn't know how to contact them. And it was because there was no record of what their email was, so. Yeah. But I agree with Chris on the gist of this. I mean, I have also found difficult sometimes to figure out how to contact people and not everybody gives you a contact info on their GitHub page, which is often the only thing you have. And then it's like, well, where do I go now? So, sorry, my connection dropped, so I missed some of Chris's comments, but I'm not a big fan for putting email lists and where they can just be harvested. Well, if you had been in the open source, open standards arena for longer, you would not care about this anymore. Has been out there for so many years. If outlook was better at filtering junk mail, then I would care less. That should sound. Well, so, I mean, I kind of don't think this matters because if you're using DCO, which you should be, your email address is right there. Yeah, there's lots of ways for people to get email addresses even off responses to the mail list and stuff, but I don't know. Something about just putting a list in the repo just feels more accessible to lazier people. But that's not how you find the list. Yeah, my thought was to set it up such that there must be at least one mechanism to contact the maintainer, whether or not that's an email address or your chat ID. I don't care. Okay. So, I'm not trying to make it required, if you will. I just want to make sure that the maintainer can be contacted. I agree with that. I actually put that in a comment, I believe that, you know, at least one or the other should be there because, you know, if you have one, you can at least use that. You get really in trouble if all you have is the GitHub ID and the person didn't put any contact info on their GitHub page because that's the data and then you have nothing to contact them. Well, then you have to go fish for those sign-offs and stuff like that, but it's a bit more convoluted than it ought to be. All right. Anything else? Any more general comments on the direction? Do people feel like this is going in the right direction? Because if not, you should speak up. Yeah. No, I think, don't get me wrong. I think this is great. I think, again, you know, as we were discussing, getting to some sort of consistency is a good thing. I just, I do think that we need to make sure that we provide a means for people to be contacted. And so, that's what should be written. Not a chat person, but I'm sure Brian also agree. Yeah, I'm with you, but Tracy, maybe we can put in the text that, you know, a reliable way of contacting maintainers should be documented, whether it's the, you know, chat ID or email. So that people understand this is what we really want that info. Contacting, being able to contact the maintainers is important. Yeah, so I'm going to add a note that says there must be at least one reliable mechanism to contact the maintainer or chat ID or email. There you go. Sounds good. Thanks. So there's a lot of shoulds in here. And should to me means totally optional. One of the things that you have as should is outlining how people get added to the list or removed from the list. Wouldn't that be considered something further required for the governance of a project? Yeah, I think that's where we actually started the conversation. Right, but I'm assuming to capitalize the should that you mean it in the RC 2119 sense of the term, which means you have to have a damn good reason not to. Doesn't mean totally optional. It means you need to have a really good reason why you wouldn't. Right. And then the other part is should this list be machine parsable? It's okay to have random text in these files, as long as sort of this list of information from these of these maintainers can be plucked out and fed into, I don't know, YAML parser or whatever. And the only reason, I mean, this maybe highlights Dan's concern, right? It would make it even easier. But the ultimate goal here is to make a lot of the maintenance, then the governance enforcement automatic through get hooks. So like updates to the maintainer lists should be signed off by multiple maintainers, whatever your threshold is, right? That kind of stuff. We can we will eventually be able to automate this. I mean, I guess maybe it's that would be optimizing too early, because we're not there yet. But that would be my only concern. I know that Ryan, I both work on a lot of tools that are meant to go through these repos and pull out relevant information. So I think that's a must. This is our chance, right? But what is a must? The machine parsable list. Yeah. So this is our chance to get it right. I mean, when I say our, of course, I mean, your, I don't have any say in this, but, right? No, but I'm listening. I just don't know. So how do we do this? What would it take? What kind of tool do we want to parse this is another thing. Because we also want this to be really, I mean, human readable, right? Currently, these are like markdown files or rest, and it's like, you can just, you know, GitHub has built in support for those. Did you see, I made a change, I think, to the fabric maintainers file a few iterations ago, where I added a section of links at the bottom for the GitHub links. So that was my first step towards making this machine parsable. Okay. So that I was wondering what that. Well, for one, it makes it easier to, you know, by having it by reference, right? You don't have to sit there and look at all the things. Yeah. Yeah, no, I just, I just noticed that I didn't realize you had gone through and done that. So thank you. And I agree. I think using hyperlinks certainly would make it possible. Right. And then the next step would be to add, like, instead of, like, all of those are GitHub links, because those were really easy to do with Ock. The next step would be, like, if you were going to have email links to have a tkirt-email or, you know, lower-whatever, company, you know, company affiliation, whatever those, whatever those are, to use tags and links as opposed to just text in a NIC grid. I mean, to be fair, to be honest, I can write a parser that will pull these out in this grid format. That's not a problem. I just don't like handwriting parsers anymore, especially when we've solved this problem a half dozen times with JSON and YAML and whatnot. Right. But if the TSC is going to take a stab at this, this is, this is their chance. And I just, you know, let's, yeah, let me, let's do it really easily, right? Let's, let's not make it harder. Let me get more clarification in the justification. Okay. Get hooks are things that can be run when you get a pull request or when you do a merge. And there are certain kinds of governance rules that we must follow when we are accepting patches and merges. And right now they're done at human scale, meaning the merger, the, the merging maintainer has to verify it manually. Okay. But there's no reason why it couldn't be automatic. And what I mean by that is things like the DCO sign-off. Right now it's just the sign-off line. But in the future, and I mean very soon, near future, after this summer's mentorship, hopefully, we'll be in a position to have our own signing tool that uses our own identity systems, namely decentralized identity, self-sorbent identity. And we'll be able to then start enforcing, A, you have to park your identity somewhere where we can resolve it. So either in the repo itself or, you know, anchored in some identity tool that uses sovereign or whatever. Right. And B, that all of your commits have to be, all the inbound commits to a project have to be signed by an identity that the project already knows about because then we can write scripts that enforce governance things. And specifically on the maintainers file, each project can say, you know, to add a new maintainer, this has to be digitally signed. The commit that actually changes the file has to be digitally signed by, you know, a quorum of maintainers, three of the five maintainers or whatever. Right. And that it would actually be machine enforceable. It could be a get hook script that checks the signatures, resolves them using Aries. Aries knows how to resolve dids to did documents now and get public keys out of them. And could then decide, right? Like it's part of sort of the build pass, right? The CICD, right? It's like first thing to do is to check the digital signatures on the code before we even spin up the pipeline. Anyway, that's sort of the grand vision. Something we've been heading towards since self sovereign identity became a thing and we started dogfooding. So if we do take the time now to just make a slight tweak here and say, look, this table just needs to be a YAML table or whatever, whatever you choose. It can both be human readable and easily machine parsable. And that would also then feed into this, this future that I envision that Rai, I don't know how he feels about it, but you know, it's like, yeah, we could totally do that. It would solve a lot of things going forward in the terms of having airtight regimes around a lot of the legal and governance rules that we have to maintain and enforce. All right. So thanks for the explanation. I wasn't sure we were going with this, but I think I understand a bit better. I don't know that this is the best way to do that. But one thing I see, one issue that you have right now with the way like the fabric maintenance file has been set up is you have even after what Rai did is you have a whole list of GitHub ideas, but you don't know, you can differentiate the current ones from the retired ones to start with. So it will require a bit more massaging to be able to get it to suit this kind of needs. Yeah, you're right. I mean, the ideal scenario here is that your maintainer status is actually in the form of a verifiable proof. Right. That is the ultimate way to go here. Okay. But listen, guys, and I wanted to react also, you know, Rai said twice at least, this is our chance to do it right. I'm like, come on, let's not be so dramatic. We can always improve on this, right? Right now we have nothing. We are talking about developing a guidelines to, you know, a set of guidelines for people to follow and improve the overall, you know, status of what we have across the different projects. If, you know, it takes a month or two and we say, hey, if we did this little tweak, we can make it possible more easily or whatever, we can also agree to do that. And it's not like we'll say, no, sorry, you missed the opportunity when we did the guidelines. So let's, let's. Well, yes, you're right. That's right. But maybe there are some immediate short-term gains, like we can easily measure the contributions of maintainers, if we could easily grab the maintainers list and then map it to their contributions in the mailing list and in the repo itself. Okay. But my point was, you know, I don't think this, I mean, this could be like a side project. And, you know, if Rai already has some ideas that we can easily document and say, hey, by the way, if you could do it this way, it'll make things much easier for everybody. I think we can do that. I wouldn't necessarily want to delay this task of setting up the guidelines, you know, for too long before, you know, because we're trying to figure something much more fancy. That's all. Yeah. Okay, less is more. Keep it simple. So instead of the line with pluses and dashes, can you just go left bracket, left bracket, maintainers, right bracket, right bracket, that makes it a YAML table. And don't know. Okay, you guys can figure this out offline. You can discuss the tricks that could be used on improving the format. I'm happy with that. I don't want to spend more time now on discussing different hacks we could use at the formatting level. Let's go back to the substance. There was one point I wanted to go back to, and I agree with Chris's point on the meaning of should. There's a difference in standards world, right? We use must, should, or may. Optional things you say may. Should is not completely optional. But I do wonder if we shouldn't make the documentation of the policy, I think, is important again, and I would make that a must. I don't really care where it is, and we have a lot of should about what the policy should contain, but I think it's a must to have the policy documented. You have to have one. So it has to be, it should be written down, and we should have that documented, and it should be readily available. Anybody disagrees with that? No. Just a note there in all the standards work we've been doing, should is something really not desirable, because people don't know if they need to or not, and they usually just ignore it. You want to make the requirement a hard requirement, and then explain when it's not a hard requirement. So I like this change. Okay. I like should, because I like the light touch on this. I think we're kind of close to this space where we're, we have the potential to just start creating rules, because we've run on of other things to do usefully as technical governance. So, you know, particularly for like smaller projects that have a single maintainer or something like that, having them author a maintainer policy and go through a bunch of stuff when they're kind of maybe struggling to keep the basics of the project going. Do we have a project with a single maintainer? I don't know how many maintainers we're up to on Quilt, but at one point that had a single maintainer. I also think it's not uncommon to have a project that has four or five maintainers, but where one guy's doing the bulk of the maintenance work. Yeah. This is I because I'm going stir crazy looking at all of the GitHub repos. There are a lot, there's a lot of abandonware and this is a topic I was going to bring up later. Once I was able to more carefully characterize that, but you know, Aroha and Sawtooth and well, those two in particular have a bunch of repos that were created, populated and haven't been touched in a long, long time. And that was a question, I guess from me to you, is that okay or not? Okay. Okay. So let's not get into this now, but I think it is an important question. So we should definitely have that on the agenda for later. But so, okay, I take your point though, maybe should is reasonable enough. It achieves the main goal to provide direction without being too draconian and start dictating everything. So anything else? Otherwise, I'm happy to leave it at this. And then I think we can finish it off through PR comments and whatnot on the proposal that Tracy has been working on. Yeah, I just wanted to let you guys know that I did just do a push to add the stuff around having a reliable mechanism to contact the maintainer and then short kind of description of what scope might look like if it existed. So that those things have been pushed already. Okay. If I could ask the TSC, for this repo, how many votes do you want before merge? I mean, I could make that zero or I could make that like 10, right? What's the number that you want? It should be a quorum. It should be the, you know, majority at quorum. I don't know how that works, but... So not to open a whole other dialogue on it. But that should normally be the case. We know getting people's engagement can be a problem. So another policy I'll just float is that you have the kind of two plus one policy that we use in a lot of the projects with the caveat that it can't be merged within a week of being submitted. That way, everybody's had a chance to put their input in. All right. I mean, of course, for something like this, I think it's totally fine. The reality is if we were changing something much more important, I'm not sure you would feel that way. No, no, I wouldn't. So I'm fine with sticking with the quorum voting rules and just moving that over to GitHub. But let's keep an eye if people aren't engaged, then we might have to loosen them. I'm not completely opposed to what you were saying.  But I just don't know if we're going to regret if we just say in general, this is the repo where we're supposed to document everything right forward, where we're going to converge all the rules and decisions we've made over the years. So there won't be all these documents on the weekies and whatnot. And so I'm wondering, you know, when talking about the project life cycle, does it only take three people to say, yes, let's change the life cycle? Maybe not.  My part is that we keep the GitHub repository just a minimal review, and then we let things be reversible on the call. It makes it so that things like, you know, minor text edits, like if Dave comes up with an improvement on the formatting, don't require a full discussion every time. Yeah, that's not a bad idea, actually. That's kind of the way weekies work too. You allow people to make changes.  And you say, no, you can see who's done what and reverse it if needed. And in practice, it works much better than people expect. So I think that's a reasonable proposal. And I, you know, I trust the TSE members would not go crazy and change the project life cycle really nearly for that matter. So it's really rhetorical. All right, so based on that, I made my mind, I agree with the simple rule of like, what was it? Two plus one or something like this? As I just discovered, you can only set it to six. That's the max. So you could set it from zero to six. So no, no, but let's not even go that far. Okay, two is enough.  And then you'll see what the policy is. Yeah, I hope so. I know it's not there yet, but Dan, I guess that's your job now. You know, on that line, in that line, I have to tell you the repo linter repo is not also is not compliant either, which is kind of funny. I've been trying to address some of that. All right, I think we're done with this. So the last agenda item for today is the frequency of those TSC calls. So Dan sent an email saying, Hey, how about we switch to every other week? Seems like this should be enough. I'm not opposed to it.  And in reality, we use most of the time on the calls all the time. And so maybe we will miss something. And things tend not to move between calls. The calls tend to keep a heartbeat, force people to pay attention, you know, do their reviews of the reports and that kind of stuff. There is a risk if we make it two weeks, that for two weeks, almost nothing happens until the call finally comes in. And things will slow down as a result. And, you know, for proof, I think you can ask Tracy, when did she got the comments from people like myself and others on the, on these guidelines we just talked about, you know, it happens at the last moment before the call. And so that's my concern. But you know, I'm not opposed to it. So I'm bringing it up for the group to discuss. I can't do it though. This is Chris. You know, I respond to saying, I don't know that we're there yet, where we only need to meet once every other week.  But I don't think we have a shortage of things to work on. And I'd like to keep moving in this direction where we're getting a lot more engaged, and we're working towards trying to bring a little bit more collaboration and so forth. I think we have a lot of work to do in that regard. And so I'm not a fan of cutting back. So you had said something in your note about project collaboration. And I was wondering after the fact, wonder if there was a different forum for that, where we got the maintainers in on a recurring basis. Because I still don't know that the maintainers generally are well engaged with what happens here. So our ability to affect that inner project collaboration has always been kind of limited. There is a maintainer's email list, which is basically unused. What more would the TSC like in terms of fostering communication and collaboration? Yeah, and when I said forum, I meant discussion like this TSC call. So if we were to alternate weeks with the TSC meeting and a maintainers meeting or something like that. I don't know if there's interest in that. But my point was that for us to meet as a TSC on a weekly basis doesn't necessarily solve the issue that Chris was pointing to. Anyone else who hasn't heard from a lot of people on something that should matter to everybody? Sure. I see arguments for both ways.  And I think to Chris's point, if we can use the TSC meetings to sort of push more inter-project cooperation, that would be fantastic. So in my experience, for this to happen, somebody has to make concrete proposals or something, you know, put on the agenda. And you know, I always call for agenda items. The reality is, you know, pretty much nobody ever suggests any agenda item. It's very rare, right? Yeah. No, that's that. Go ahead, Tracy. Sorry. No, I'm sorry. So I was just going to say that, I mean, I feel like we can keep them that weekly. And if we don't have something we can cancel, which is what we normally do, especially like around the holidays and those sorts of things. But like today, a short agenda, right? We're currently at 15 minutes still, right? We spend a lot of time on that pull request, which I think is great. I think having the discussion is good. Obviously, I'd love to have more discussion offline. But, you know, I do think that we're, we have the opportunity to make some progress on different sorts of things. I look at, you know, the fact that we want to bring over all of the current governance documents to this repo, right? Are we going to have conversations when we do that? Or are we going to bring it over as it is and then make the changes? But at some point, I think there's going to be a lot of discussion around even that governance documentation. So my, I guess my recommendation is keep them weekly. And if we don't need to have it, we cancel. All right. Thank you. Anyone else? Nathan, for instance? I think we need to, instead of reducing the number of meetings, we need to work at filling the means with better content, I think we still have some unresolved things about how we help people engage with one another and cross project collaboration. You have some things about how the architecture of, you know, community events works, which is hard to talk about right now while everyone's kind of locked down at home. But there's, there's a lot of those issues that we just haven't really taken the time to address. And I agree with Arno that a lot of that's going to take initiative on our part to propose them and put together something to actually completely discuss. But we don't, we don't do that by having less time to discuss them. We do that by having more things to discuss and pushing the cream to the top. All right. Thank you. Anyone else? All right. So I'm not hearing much support for switching to every other week. So we're going to keep it weekly for now. I can, you know, commit to canceling maybe less, you know, with less hesitation than maybe I normally do if I feel like the agenda is too light to be worthy. And by the way, feel free to respond in that, you know, in that way if you feel like, hey, I'm not sure this is worth having a call this week. Let's postpone to next week. And, you know, I'm definitely welcoming input on that. And I think we can go from there. But I have also no problem. I don't know how other people feel. But for me, it's easier to hold this on my calendar on a weekly basis and cancel or keep them short. You know, if the call we're only half an hour, I'm totally fine with this. I can use the other half hour very quickly for something else. It's not going to be a problem. So while, you know, creating a new, inserting new agenda, new invites is always much harder. So can you find no comments or reactions? This is not a great fun of meetings in general. So for me, it would be nice. It would be fine even once per month, as long as there is enough to discuss and something important to discuss. Personally, that's my usual approach also for work for inside my company. Because most of the time we, it's a waste of time. So that's my, not to refer into these meetings, but in general, the less meetings, the better. I would say because there's work to do. That's, that's also the thing. So that's my personal opinion. I understand. Anyone else? All right. If not, then is there anything else anybody wants to bring up now before we close the call? All right, hearing none. I don't see any hands raised either. So I take it we're all good with calling it today. So well, thank you all for joining today. I think we had a good conversation and I think it was helpful in moving forward this issue on the guidelines. So I think it was time well spent personally. But let's keep the discussion going offline. And we'll talk again next week then, although I take it from what you said, Dan, you won't be able to join us, right? So yeah, I'm on vacation too. All right. So we'll have so few people missing, but that's all right.


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