If you feel like you're spreading yourself too thin or wrestling with the idea that you're doing too many things, you're going to want to listen to this episode. Today, we are talking with Grant Riven-Yun, who is a b-boy, a digital artist, an NFT creator, and a medical student at the University of Wisconsin. This man is insane, and in this episode, we talk about how he balances breaking and exercising five to six times a day, still being able to compete and qualify at an international level, still being a medical school student at the same time, and all while doing that being a digital artist, creating NFTs, which are non-fungible tokens, sort of like a cryptocurrency, but for arts, and how he's managed to still be so good at his craft in art, managing to be featured in NBC News, Vox, San Francisco Museum of Modern Art, and all of these insane places, all doing these things at the same time. So before you tell yourself that you can't do multiple things or that you have to stick to one.  Welcome to the Movement Media Mentor Podcast, the show where we help movement artists, dancers, and creators share their greatest movements through advice and stories on media and video creation. Dude. Oh, oh, wait, before we start, how do I, how do you like to be referred to? What do you think is the best way? You like Riven-Yun, Grant? It's kind of on you, I go by both, but I think recently a lot of people have been calling me Riven more than Grant. Really? The only people that call me Grant are my family, my girlfriend's family, and some students at school, but most people call me Riven. So. Okay, got you, got you. Sounds good, man. Okay. How did you get that name? Where did Riven come from? Oh, yo, that's a, so that name actually, there's like no meaning behind that name really. Basically, when I started off break, like there's no like big meaning behind that name. When I started off breaking, I started breaking for like four or five years before I even entered a jam. Right. So I was just training. And I remember I was just trying to figure out a name.  And sure, there's like a lot of problems with that and biting and stuff. But, you know, I grew up, you know, watching YouTube and clips like that. And so like, I just wanted to find a name. I was training by myself because no one else at school was really training or anything. And I came across, I was like reading the Lord of the Rings and I came across Rivendell. So I came, so I actually went with that for like a couple of years. But then when I met Crumbles and a couple other people out here in Wisconsin, they were like, Oh, you should just shorten it to Rivendell. And so that's all it's been. That's cool, man. That's awesome. I like that name a lot. Actually happened to play League by chance. Do you? I used to, but I never played Rivendell. I always played, well, I played top, but I never played Rivendell. Okay. Yeah. Rivendell was one of my mains. So I was like, that's dope. Okay. Rivendell. Wow. Okay, man. Well, okay. Thank you for letting me know that. So I'll refer to you as Rivendell. It's really cool to have you on. And I appreciate your time. Once again, I think you're going to have a lot of interesting, like just awesome things to say just because I don't know how it feels from the inside, like looking out, you know, as who you are, but from what I've seen and continued to see you posting online, you are a very, what's the word multifaceted individual, right? Because you're in a breaking scene. You're currently studying for your MD, right? You're in med school right now. And you also are an artist and not just any artist. We're going to get more into that. But you, you've kind of been pioneering almost the digital realm as we know it, like things are changing and you're kind of exploring that space. So I guess we'll talk about first the common ground that we share because I want to kind of get to know you from that point. I'm assuming one of the first things you started doing of those three was dance and breaking, right? So you want to let me know like how that kind of, how you got into that and how that potentially influenced the other things you're doing right now? Yeah, yeah. So I started out breaking in middle school. So I'm 25 right now. So that was like 11, 12 years ago. And, you know, this is funny because I actually was talking to someone about this recently. I remember in middle school when I had an iPod nano or iPod classic, I can't know it wasn't a classic. It was a nano because there was no memory on there. And I remember I didn't have any space for music because the only thing I had on my iPod nano was the Ivy 2005 clip of Korea versus USA. Oh my gosh.  Wow. Yo, I think I remember like the first time I saw breaking, it was just like some random guys were doing it. In middle school. And I was like, this is crazy. So I looked it up and, you know, the rest is history.   Um, and that was in California. I'm from San Jose, California. Oh, okay. Yeah. So like once I like graduated high school, I kind of got to know like East side union and stuff. Um, and some, some, you know, cats from that area, you know, from my area, but I didn't have that much time. And I went to college at the University of Wisconsin. So that's kind of where I really found myself as a B boy. And I think I was really wack. Um, just until I got more exposure and like an actual dancing and like learn from people and really kind of like. Yeah. So I, I just really, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just took the time to go out and travel, right. Um, And I'm sure like all B boys know, like that's, you know, like the first jam they went to, or like the first like trip, they went on the first like flight, they wanted to a jam and stuff. So, you know, I have all those stories here and there, but yeah, man, it's just been a long journey. But I think, uh, I've done a lot of growing. And I never had any huge goals as a B boy. So I think I've achieved everything I wanted to from breaking and, you know, of course I'm still going to be pushing, but I think a lot of people talk about like, you have to set a goal for yourself, whether it's like school or whether it's, you know, like in the creative space or something. But I think as long as you have a drive to keep going, like you'll always, you know, be hungry for something. That's really cool, man. I want to keep, I want to touch back on that because I think that's, um, really interesting and important, uh, how, you know, maybe you don't necessarily need a goal to be driven. And so I do want to touch back on that in a second, but before we keep going on that, I want to also know, I remember listening, um, recently you got featured on NBC news, right? And so congratulations on that. That's really cool. Now it's for your art stuff. Um, and not only that, but it was also related to your field as, you know, as med student. So, um, you want to tell me how that journey started for you, how the whole art thing did and how, if that at all touched or intertwined with breaking it all or, or what you're doing now. Um, what type of art, like, um, like my whole art journey or just that new segment that I did? Oh no, definitely, definitely your journey. Like how did you even like, Oh, my whole journey first place. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, my mom is used to be an art teacher. She got her master's in art and my aunt used to be an art teacher. And so I think I always grew up just in a house. Hold of just like artists. And so as an art, like growing up, I remember I would love drawing. And to this day, I have this binder that has all the illustrations I've done since like I was five or four years old. I just keep them, then keep them in this binder. And yeah, I think I've always wanted to be an artist. And I remember I told my parents when I was five or six, I remember I told them when I grow up, I wanted to be a photographer because they're really like shooting photos. So I've always had this creative passion in me. And it's almost not even a passion because it'd be silly to say, like drinking water as a passion or eating food as a passion. Um, because it's just second nature. Right. So I'm always looking to create stuff and, um, and always like whether it's photography, drawing, um, whatever. Right. And so I've always been a photographer. Um, whatever. Right. And so I've always been drawing my whole life, but then in, uh, in college, I remember I, I had this anthropology class and they gave me the task to do like a logo. Um, and I don't think they knew that I was like an artist or anything, but I was like, okay, I got to make this logo and I've never done digital before. So what I did was I took out PowerPoint and PowerPoint has those shapes. You can like drag, right? Like squares and circles and stuff. And to make like basic arrows. And so I remember I traced like this dog because Madison, Wisconsin is called Dane County. It's in Dane County. So like the great Dane. So I was drawing the dog and I was like, wow, this is kind of sick. So from that point on, which was my freshman year of college, which was like six, seven years ago, I took a couple of years to really just kind of like use PowerPoint and illustrate and it was really rudimentary where it was like, distract shapes, stack them on top of one another, whether it's circles or triangles and make like silhouettes and like, kind of like very rudimentary shapes. And that's kind of how I got this really geometric style.  So I moved over to Adobe illustrator and I did my first illustration. I remember I had no idea how to use the entire application and I used it the same way I use PowerPoint where I would drag the shapes and kind of move them and kind of move the edges one by one. And I made this illustration and it's called Sunrise City Blues. And I remember I submitted that to this art gallery competition at my school where they would vote for like one piece to get exhibited and then that person would get a scholarship. And I remember I won that. I won a $500 scholarship off of my first illustration. And I went to the gallery and they like exhibited a lot of people's work, but my work was at the very front and it like said I was a winner. And as I walked through the halls, I noticed that everyone else's work was from like an art student or a design student or someone.  And so I think it's what I illustrate now comes from a combination of my love for like photography. I know I didn't talk about this, but I really love photography. And so, and I like a specific type of photography. And so I have like this passion for like landscapes and architecture, plus like my inability to draw digitally that I've kind of honed in on and developed into my into a style of my own words, geometric and I utilize a lot of negative space and kind of all those things together kind of came into this one kind of culmination of a style that you know, I'm really proud of. And so that's kind of where I'm at right now. That's so cool. You can say that man. It's I feel like this is something that is a lifelong journey, but I can see and I can also affirm you that you do have a very specific style. You know, and I think everyone can see that. And that's the reason why you're able to be able to do what you're doing right now with your art as well, which is crazy because honestly, like throughout last story, you didn't even mention breaking one. So it's like a whole another pathway. You're taking alongside that as well.  So how did you end up deciding to do that route? Because you don't just go through college as a, you know, it's a lot of work to do any type of STEM or pre-med degree and go beyond that. So where did that interest and drive for you come from to want to do that for school? Yeah. So I always associated school as separate from my creative passions. And I'm not saying that it was a mistake to think like that. But now that I'm more serious into my artwork, especially this year and last year, and also now that I'm in medical school. And now that like I have almost absolutely no time to do anything else. I imagine it's kind of coming to a point where maybe I shouldn't have thought that my creative passions and my academic passions had to be separated. But at the time when I was a in college, I wanted to do something science-based because I always liked science just in high school and middle school. And those were the subjects. I was just best at math science, et cetera. I, you know, like I'm terrible at reading. I'm terrible at, you know, whatever, right? And so I like biochemistry, but I did want to be a doctor just throughout high school and college. I wouldn't say there was necessarily a point in time where like I had an aha moment where I was like, I need to be a doctor. I need to do pre-med. But I always enjoyed like doing medical research and, you know, volunteering and stuff. And it's kind of a passion. It's kind of, to be honest, it's something that like I've slowly developed. Maybe it was a journey that was like, to be completely honest, maybe it was also a journey that was motivated by the encouragement of my parents. Of course, like, like it would be a lie to say like your parents won't encourage you to be a doctor or be some other profession, right? Yes, there was some like encouragement from my parents and from my family to be a doctor when I mentioned it. And of course, there's job stability, which is something that like you can't ignore as well. And so on top of that, of course, like I think working in the healthcare industry is great. Of course, there are a lot of things that need to be addressed in America's healthcare system. But yeah, it's just something that I've always enjoyed. I've always loved science and I don't think I could have picked another career path in academia besides that. It's incredible. Wow. Yeah, man. So you didn't mention something that I'm, I want to touch on a little bit more, which is when you first started and continue to do it, you first initially chose not to associate, you know, like your passion, your art with academics. So you said your opinion of that and your association of that is starting to change a little bit. So how would you say that's changing for you now? So I would say that first off, I think there's a lot of different ways you can integrate all your interests together. And I think a lot of people who are probably young, whoever watched this video, whether they're like in high school, middle school or even in college, or maybe even after associate, like, okay, I have to, I can be an artist, but I want to do law school or I want to do med school. And I have to be a lawyer or, you know, I have to do, I have to do medicine or something. But take for example, this scenario, which actually is my scenario. I also minored in religious studies. Wow. So I got my minor in religious studies and in religious studies actually, if I had to do it again, I would actually major in religious studies and minor in biochemistry. Wow. But anyways, there was a class in religious studies that talked about how the way hospitals are like architecturally structured is in a way where windows are strategically placed so that light shines in from a particular way. Every hospital room has a window. And then of course, like the artwork that's on hospitals are always associated with nature or something positive. And so, for me, that kind of was like a calling like, I need to do, I need to make art for the hospital. I mean, that's like, that's like, that's like a no brainer, right? I'm an artist and I like medicine. That's actually how I started my Midwest series. I wanted to do a series that was for inpatients at the hospital. I guess not inpatients, just anyone who's at the hospital, whether it's workers, doctors, whatever, right? Health care workers or patients. And I actually achieved that goal. So I have a couple pieces at UW Health Hospital in Madison right now. And I have yet to go see it, but the pieces are up somewhere in the hospital. It's a huge hospital. So I definitely need to look for hours and hours. But yeah, so like there is like, when you go into medicine, you never think like, oh, I can like mix my interest for art to, you know, as a doctor or as a nurse or as whatever, as a medical assistant or anything really. Right. But the more you dig deep, the more you realize there is like different avenues they take.  There's always a scale that of interest that you can kind of like integrate into anything that you want to do. Oh man, that is super important advice that I think all of us could use, especially in our space as dancers or anybody who's in a culture who feels like they have to follow a certain path. Like, for example, I know a lot of people like us growing up, maybe not the case for you, but a lot of people when they start raking or start doing something competitive. It's like a dream, right. And like one of the most obvious dreams is like, okay, like, now that I'm in this space as a B boy and the most obvious place to showcase my skills as jams. The thing for me to achieve and to be to make the most of my experiences to win jams and become like a world class B boy. Right. And I think that is a goal that is easy to come across right because it's right in front of us. And I think that this pattern emerges a lot in different types of cultures right like if I go to school then I get a degree and then I get the job based off my major, or if I go to med school you know become a doctor. But sometimes it's not that clear cut and there's a lot of ways that you can mix things around. And your story is really inspiring to that because it makes sense how you came across this where you took these different points in your life that were at first glance don't have much of a resemblance. But as you continue to do it, you know you you you were able to find a way so that was really cool to hear. I am also, I do want to hear a little bit more though. As you continued that journey. Was there ever any points or are there any points where you still feel like you struggle with that same problem as well where you're like dang like I'm putting a lot of time into this and this. And I don't necessarily know how I'm eventually going to do them in harmony, or do them together. Whether it's a past story where you struggle with that to find your balance or whether you're still finding your balance like I'd love to hear more about that. So the outlier of my entire life is breaking basically. And it's strange because I, I absolutely hate telling people that don't break that like that I break really because they're always be like, can you like X been or can I see a clip of you or they'll say some random stuff like that. Like, I personally don't ever care about I think like of course, when you're middle school in high school you want to like show off like windmills and head spins and stuff but like, I'm at this point where I only break for myself. And I don't integrate it into medicine I don't integrate it into art of course breaking is art, but I just mean like my digital art and stuff. You'll never see me draw like a breaker or you won't you want to see me do like, yeah, and you don't want to see me do like doing like a performance like performative art kind of integration of medicine and breaking and stuff like I'll never integrate breaking and all my other passions.  Because it's kind of that place I go when I'm stressed, or when I'm feeling a certain way, and I just forget about it. So, I think there's definitely, it's important to integrate stuff when you want to but it's important to kind of like separate things when you need to. That's a really important lesson actually, because I guess yeah, not everything has to go together.  Like, what do you think life would be like for you without breaking. If I wasn't a man, I don't know. I always I always think about this because I'm like, people would never go to a jam and never hear their favorite song at a jam. And jam out to their favorite song at a jam. I don't know what it's like to have that experience and that's a very special unique experience that only dancers have where, especially freestyle dancers which are like the boys poppers lockers, whackers, you know, etc. And it's just a feeling that you really can't capture and you can't explain to anyone. And the closest that I would imagine this feeling to be is when musicians play together and they really go off. And so if I didn't have breaking I'd probably be a musician. Oh, interesting. Okay. Have you ever explored music like playing instrument or anything like that. Yeah, I played oboe in middle school and high school for the longest time. I played piano. Yeah. Okay, it's not my it's not my favorite but I've done it before. Yeah. Got you. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. But what you said about how, you know, it's, it's just such a special experience. And so you would just want to have that rather than not, you know, especially with your, your skills.  You're still, you know, selling it and making it and doing it for the hospitals and all these things. So what type of when do you decide to break and how do you schedule breaking into your life. And if I want to go into like the details, I, I exercise at least five times a week, sometimes six. I'll have one to two days of just session and I'll session for about an at least an hour and 15 but up to two hours. And I try to go as hard as I can because all day I'm sitting right and that's like the worst thing you can do to your body. At least that's what we're told so you should always be active you should always be standing but if you can't then I try to make up for that when I'm at session. And then the other four days what I do is I'll warm up with breaking for like 3040 minutes and then I'll go to the gym for about an hour hour and a half. And while I'm at the gym. I'm listening to lectures. So I'm listening to lectures or I'm doing quizzes because I like I need that time to like study like I literally can't afford to lose that time. So I have to be multitasking at that point, which has been working for me for the past year and a half that I've been in school so it's not a bad thing. But yeah, I'll be breaking. I'll be breaking like for dedicated session twice once or twice a week of like an hour to two hours and then I'll use it as a warm up four days a week, just for like 3040 minutes and I always make sure to like go as hard as I can just because I'm pretty I mean like I'm in medical school but you know it's easier said than done but I'm pretty aware of my health and like I just want to, you know, be healthy be a healthy person and maintain like a like a good lifestyle. And so I've just been trying to break as much as I can keep my cardiovascular health up. Yeah. That's fair man. That's cool. Okay, that's cool here. I know maybe it's not in the cards right now but I know you have a lot of talent and I hope you don't close the door to ever exploring how you could potentially mix that in because you're a really dope breaker like I've seen yourself.  So like like a lots of props to you you've got a lot of discipline and a lot of work ethic so I got to give it up to you for that and yeah of course and so in the future you know if you ever end up doing something like breaking art related I'd love to see that just throwing it out there. Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah for sure whatever happens and but on that topic of your art so you mentioned digital art is kind of like that that transition you made was around college and since then you also do photography. So I do want to explore that later but on the digital art thing that's kind of what your profile is a majority of right like you're showcasing your art. So I know the reason why you came up in conversation was because Daniel mentioned you from stance who is our previous guest and also tech from stance I'm not sure if you've talked to him before. I don't. He's in the Bay. Yeah. Yeah. He's in LA now but he's been really big over the last few years talking about you know NFTs and and blockchain and stuff like that. And so it looks like you have begun to explore and take advantage of the space. So what is your experience been with that like word. Yeah. Yeah so So they often say that you are the average of the five people you hang around the most with. So if you're looking for a community of people who will push you who will help you grow keep you accountable and give you advice on career advancement dance professionalism media creation video production any of that. I would highly recommend you check out our movement media makers discord group. The link will be in the show notes of whatever video you're watching or if you're listening on podcast it'll be in the show notes description. Take a look and I hope to see you in there. Now back to the show. So I do know who Kinect she is. He goes by pineapple. Yes. Okay. I know Kinect. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So he and I are in the crew capital square rockers. Actually we're also the Bronx boys. We're also on TVV. You're on TVV. Oh yeah. But yeah we started this crew called capital square rockers. It's not like a real crew. It's just really close friends from Madison. Because he used to live there for for for work. He's working that big. So anyways, he he and I what we do is so he doesn't have he's a pharmacist. Right. So he doesn't have a background in photography, but he's a photographer. I don't have a background in art, but I'm an artist like like academic background. Right. So we're severely disadvantaged in terms of resources because well, that's what I think at least because I never in college, I'll still try to figure out how I can even draw to begin with, let alone like not being in like art school design school. And so I never had any resources to like guide me or mentors to guide me like what to do to get myself out there. And I think one of the biggest mentalities that I have that I live by definitely is like no one's going to just find you and you're never going to have overnight success if you don't put yourself out there. And you're never going to be successful if you don't put yourself out there. And I think a lot of people are arrogant and try to hold themselves up to a standard where they're like, I don't promote myself. People are going to find me. And I just look at that and I'm like, maybe, but for the most part, no one's going to find you. And you're not going to make it because of a mentality that you want to hold or like just a persona you want to hold. So what we do is every month we have this spreadsheet that we have this huge long ass spreadsheet of every email, every application, like magazine, gallery, whatever, like news article, every gallery, like exhibition that we could possibly apply to online. And we just go through it like we send like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of like emails out. And of course, like 99.999% of them are going to come back as rejected or we're just never going to get a reply at all. And so we just blindly just send out stuff.  And the only way I got any of those is just because I applied to them. And so I don't know if you know who Nardward is, but yeah, he did a TED talk and he's like, if you want to know something about someone, just ask. And so all we do is ask, we just ask, like, can we do, can we be featured? And can we do this? And can we do that? And so one, so one day I came across like what NFTs even are last year. And I saw the applications for all the websites and I applied to every single one of them. And I luckily a couple months later, I didn't even remember that I applied a couple months later in February, I got accepted to super rare, which is there's a lot of stuff. There's a lot of different like categories of NFTs. I didn't know you had to be accepted to, you know, wow. So actually, I didn't even know that it was a big deal, but I guess super rare is the number one, one of one NFT platform. So it's very sought out and people like it's a big deal to get accepted, but I just had no idea at the time. And I didn't even have a Twitter and that's where everyone talks about NFTs and crypto. So I didn't have a Twitter. I was just completely dissociated from that world until I got accepted. And then my, my Genesis, which was Genesis as in like my first drop on as an NFT. I actually made a post about this on Twitter recently because someone bought that piece on the secondary market. So that week I got accepted to super rare. I got hacked and I lost all my money. What the heck. And I was left with $200 in my bank account before and this was like on Monday, right? In February. And then a couple of days later, I got accepted to super rare. So I had a couple of hundred dollars left in my bank account. And for those who don't know, if you want to put something up as an NFT, it costs gas. It's something called gas and think of it just as like a transaction fee. And those transaction fees in February cost around a couple hundred dollars. So I literally took a leap of faith. And I used the rest of my money to mint my first NFT. And then a couple of days later, I got an offer for around eight, $700. And I took it and everything, you know, from there is history, but that was kind of the beginning of how I got into it in February. And it's been a, it's been a good journey ever since then. Wow, man. That's, yeah. That's a crazy story. You got hacked. And then you spent like the last of your money to mint that.  That's crazy. Yeah. Like congratulations for all of that, you know, like for getting accepted super rare. I've heard the name before. So, and I think I remember tech mentioning that super rare is like one of the top ones. So that's, that's already so cool. So since then, um, how many things have you published and how many things have you sold? Uh, so I'm actually in a pretty good place right now. I just minted something new yesterday. But before that, I had 49 stuff on my super rare and all 49 were sold out. Wow. And so I'm kind of in this place. I don't want to like, you know, brag or boast or anything, but I'm in this place where I have a market for my art, but there's not enough demand. Oh, sorry. There's not enough supply. So there's a lot of demand. Um, and so, um, it's been good. It's been really good. Um, I've, uh, I've been able to talk to a lot of collectors and a lot of big people in the space, um, who have a big voice. So it's just been a really nice time connecting with people just on the internet and really getting to know about NFTs. And I'm kind of in this tunnel vision. Um, I'm kind of in tunnel vision right now where I really do think that NFTs are the future, but I'm sure that kind of comes with bias because I am an artist and collector into space. It's, I mean, it does come with bias, but I'll tell you from like the outside looking in, like it was, there was a lot of talk going on about it. And I don't think anybody can deny the impact that just any type of blockchain technology has had on society, you know, in the last few years. So NFTs are just like another iteration of that. Right. So I see it going a long way. And I mean, hopefully like that success continues, but even so like you're making so many valuable like transactions and connections. As of now, I'm sure like through what you're doing. Um, so I guess like how, how many hours a week would you say you spend on, on this art sector of your life?   Uh, yeah. What's that time commitment like it's, it's really tricky. And, um, so I don't know if I'm allowed to, so I won't, but if you were to look at my medical school calendar and my schedule, every day of every week is different. I don't have a regular schedule. So like, I can't say, oh yeah, I can plan this, um, next month at this day at this time. Yeah. Because like every day of every week is completely different. Um, so it's really variable on how much time I have. Um, but I, I, I like have, once I'm seated with an idea, I really can't let it go. And it really just takes my mind over. And sometimes it is like, I need to just do this art piece really quick. Um, because it's like killing me. Like I can't study. I can do anything. So sometimes it might be like several hours in a day and then I'll go like a whole week without illustrating other day, other weeks. It might be like, I'll study from, uh, like, I'll be doing school and like studying from like, I wake up at like 630, 645 every day. So I'll go from that until like 930, 10 PM, 1030 PM. And then I'll have about an hour left. Uh, where I'll try to do some illustrating or brain storming or whatnot. Um, but yeah, it really depends. Like some, sometimes I have commissions I need to do. And so those might, I might need to like prioritize those. And, um, I have like some art books next to me that like, I use as inspiration and like, I'll be reading those sometimes. And recently I've been taking a lot of CBD to go to sleep because I've, I've been like, okay, maybe if I study all day and I don't have time, maybe at least I can like think of stuff, why I'm trying to go to sleep, but then I can't go to sleep because I'm like so focused on that. So I don't know. I just, it's, it's like a really tough balancing act, but, um, I try to make it work. Crazy man. Yeah. It's like, you ever feel like there's not enough hours in a day. Oh yeah. Yeah. All the time. I, I always tell my girlfriend, like, if only I had one less lecture every week, then I could probably do like 20 times more stuff, but I just can't. That's wild. No, seriously, dude. I, I am so curious about your schedule. Do you have a morning routine or anything like that? Do you start your morning off in a specific way? Or do you kind of just get to it? I, uh, my morning routine is like, I think I like, I think I have some mild OCD. I, my mom definitely has a little bit of OCD. So it might be like genetic or something where like, I definitely work in patterns. Um, and, and I'm very rhythmic in my like, in, in how I work. And so every morning I'll, I'll wake up even without an alarm. I'll wake unless I'm super tired. I'll probably wake up around six 30, six 45. I have to have my coffee and I have to have like cereal or something for breakfast. I'll wake up around next week, I used to go to the office at work, but, but during that, so like the time it takes for my carry to like work and then for the coffee, the cooldown for me to drink it is about like 45 minutes. And then I'll shower and then shower is like the signal to like, all right, I need to get my day started and then and then everything else can is all up in the air. I might have to drive to school, go to work or like just get down to studying and whatever, you know, but definitely like first 30 minutes. It's for myself really. That's good to hear. I feel like from what I've learned, just like looking at the patterns and like habits of other like high performers. It always really helps to have that priming moment, you know, where, you know, so you don't just jump into the frame and then everything's all over the place.  So it sounds like you're doing that too. It's really cool to hear. Wait, you said you're working too. Are you working at a, where are you working right now? Oh, well, so I'm doing a medical research. So I guess I'm not working because I'm not getting paid for it, but I work in a lab. And so, man, I just finished up this research project where like Labor Day weekend, I was in lab for 30, 32 hours like three weekend.  And I'm not complaining. I'm not saying it's a bad thing or anything. I'm just saying like it took up a lot of my time and it was really tiring. But yeah, I guess it's work, but I'm not getting paid for it. Yeah. That's crazy. Is it mandatory for your med school? It's not necessary mandatory, but it definitely will help me in the future when I apply to residencies. And I did some medical research for four years in college and it's kind of an extension of that. So I'm kind of like well equipped to do what I do right now and I'm like well versed in the, in the field. So that's kind of why I'm going. Yeah. Okay, I see. Yeah, I was looking at your link, your link tree.  Oh yeah, my link tree. Yeah, you've got your website and after that you've got your super rare, you've got NFTs, then you've got your research gate. Oh yeah. So yeah, there's like a lot going on. If anyone wants to see how diverse, you know, Riven is just fricking click on his link tree on his Instagram.  All right, man. I had another thing I want to touch on. Oh, so I really want to ask you this question because I don't know anyone else. Like I literally don't think I am in touch with anyone. There's not many people or artists that are currently like, not to say successfully because you know, I don't want to, I don't want to step on your definition. But yeah, I would say like successfully in my, you know, from my observation, making this artist thing online NFT. You know, I don't know if you guys have a name for yourselves. Like is there like an artist for, okay, exactly. It's like such a new space. And I haven't seen people who have made this work often, even though it is a space and I've heard it talked about a lot more than in proportion to people I see actually being practitioners of the space. You know, so what do you think in your since from your observation will like separate somebody who is able to do this and is able to create art that can be sold as these like high value items versus, you know, like an online artist or someone who just draws, you know, conventionally as we've known over the last 10 years like has a Patreon does commissions, you know, where is what is that what separates these two. And what do you think can qualify someone to become something like that. Um, I think it all comes down. Well, okay, not all comes out but a very, very big part of it comes down to your style. And so I graduated college in 2018 and I spent two years applying to medical school because I got rejected the first year. So the second year I applied I moved to Connecticut with my girlfriend because she started at Yale for her nurse practitioners over there, a couple years ago. And when I was over in Connecticut, I basically could do anything right like I just had a year to apply to medical school I could do anything so that's when I really traveled and like, like for breaking I went to like every jam and like I try to make a name for myself in that tiny window of time. But what I really wanted to talk about in that time when I was in Connecticut for about eight nine months was that I had a decision that I could make where it was. I could find a job that was like a nine to five whatever it was working at a restaurant or someone who are like, a job that would like hire me really quickly a place out hire me really quickly so I can work for nine months, or I could just work off of commissions and whatever I won from going to these random jams that I went to, and I chose a ladder.  And so I, that's what I did, I really spent like the entire time, entire eight nine months I was in New Haven applying to medical school doing interviews, breaking, going to battles and just doing commissions and just really focusing down on my style and my art. And I remember when I was in Connecticut, I didn't even have a website back then, and I was like, Oh man, it's like 120, 140 bucks for a square space and then the main name. And I was like, All right, I'm finally going to do it. And so I think making a website was probably the best thing I've ever done for my entire art career. And it all came down. And so the point of the story is that had I not had I just worked a nine to five or whatever just a job instead of focusing those six, eight, nine hours a day on art, I wouldn't have this art style that I have now, because I wouldn't have that on a daily basis. And I think I'm not going to lie, I don't think I see any art on the internet that looks like my art. And one thing that separates my art from a lot of different art pieces that a lot of people will never pick up on unless I say it is the grain on every piece. So there's a fine texture that is on every illustration that looks like film grain. And I really like film grain, I know a lot of people I know it's overdone in photography and it's like at the retro look right but I really, I really enjoy film grain. And so all of my illustrations have a level of have a little touch of grain on it. And I wish I could show you the difference between what the same exact illustration looks like with grain and without grain, it's like night and day there's like no, like, it's so clear like this is an illustration and this is like an incomplete thought. And so, and from that and from like negative space and kind of like color picking I'm so picky with like picking colors from illustrations and stuff but I think it all comes down to space and and talk going back to my Genesis piece that I minted so I minted that for $700 or so. And then, a couple days ago, it got picked up for around, I think 10 or $12,000 from secondary market so I didn't make that much money I got the royalties which is 10% of that Yeah, but whoever sold it got that much money. That's crazy. That guy, his name is he doesn't like he hasn't like doxxed himself aka like he hasn't given his actual ID, but he has a Twitter handle and it's called batsup yum. And he's like one of the biggest collectors in this space and he was telling me that even on Super Rare, I have one of the most iconic styles just out there in the space. And I might not be the most profitable or the most successful NFT artists out there. But I'm really proud to have a style that like people can look at and be like okay I know who did this one right. And like NFT spaces also work in trends right so like there's a lot of 3D artists and there's a lot of like there's a lot of like cartoons and 8 bit kind of illustrations and memes and like I think all of those are great. I'm just saying like I think mine is different from that and I'm glad that I don't ever like try to do what other people are doing. I think when I got in this space I definitely had an imposter syndrome I had like the biggest imposter syndrome. So I try I was like what do I need to do to be successful. And then someone reached out to me a collector reached out to me and said, you need to pick one style because like you're showing too many styles. And so I was like all right I'm going to pick this one style that I really love and that most of my artwork is in. And so that's kind of what I do now. And so if I had to give advice for anyone who really wanted to get into like selling NFTs. It's first like don't like identify yourself as an NFT artist I think most artists never identify themselves as NFT artists. They're just artists who also happen to have NFTs that they sell. And also don't have any FOMO as much as you can and don't have imposter syndrome where you think like, alright, this person sold an NFT for $100,000 which is this 3D animation. I don't have any computing power to like even render a frame of what this person has right. And so like I obviously can't like illustrate like that so I shouldn't even try. And it's really about like being confident in what you create being confident in your own style. And so if I have to give an advice it just be like have your own style. People always reach out to me and are like how can I make this much money how can I sell NFTs and stuff. And there's always people that are like NFTs like it looks so easy to do, but then people don't realize like I have a whole 25 years of illustrating. And so it's not overnight success. It's more like a culmination of 25 years of artwork that finally have paid off to something right. And so a lot of artists in the space and photographers in the space share the very that very same view where it's like it's not overnight success we worked all these years to create this style. So if you're not an artist and you want to make NFTs like, I don't think you have the credentials that people want to actually buy an NFT right like, this is really a space where we're rewarding artists for the work that they've put in from previous years. It's not just like a pump and dump or like a scheme to get rich really quickly right so focus on your style and take the time that you need to really just like figure out your own personal voice in this space. Yeah, that's that's a really, really great piece of advice. Thank you so much. And yeah, I love how it kind of cascaded into this because you mentioned already ahead of time that it wasn't just like you started and know you saw this because I think that's what most people assume since, you know, it's like that Yeah, we see something and like, Oh, okay, like this NFT thinking I know where and people are making millions of dollars off of this. So how do I best capitalize on on this situation. And it feels like pretty much a get rich quick scheme the same way. I think a lot of creators can relate to when they go on YouTube where they go on their favorite social media platform, and they see people like kids and people younger than them or just these random people who are just, you know, having like this huge amount of success. One of two things could be happening there like one it could be like a unicorn effect where, you know, maybe you know someone got lucky and they did were able they just had everything they needed the right time right place right circumstances to to be able to get this in such short The reality is that's like the top point zero something 1% you just happen to be seeing them because that's how the algorithm works right like you see the most successful people, even though the most successful people are like the least common people like by far.  And you know it's it's not like it's not like you can't like follow trends at all, especially if you're not you're starting out because you kind of need a place to like explore, figure out what you need but then as you continue. If you want to stand out as an artist, and you know you want to be specialized and known for you and yourself, then eventually you're going to have to start to sit in and and do what Riven did which is you know, make the most of his time actually going out for hours a day taking photos. You know and then doing a drawing a day like pushing himself to fulfill that quota, and intentionally like trying to push his craft and his art, then that is something that you definitely we're going to have to do and invest that time into whether it's on your own or learning and asking questions right like you said the nerd war thing. If there's ever something you ever want to know then you got to ask you got to put yourself out there. Yeah, I mean like think about it like, like, just to put it into an analogy or a comparison like flip side Lego like Lego has been dancing longer than I've been dancing or I've been alive right. And so when people try to like look like him and dance like him. They're not going to find success because this person has been dancing longer than probably you've been alive right and so it's like, you got to pay your dues you got to create a style and develop skills. And you just can't expect that overnight success or or like feel entitled to success in any way like just put in the work and you know as if you put it in for long enough, then you know you'll find some reward here and there. Yes, exactly. And I also wanted to touch a little bit more as like when you're starting out or for you as well because I know a lot of it is coming from you, but I am curious. Are there anybody, is there anybody or other artists whether they're, let's talk about art because I'm curious about that world and your side of things. Maybe not even if it's an artist like it could be drawing from another pool of inspiration. But what are your, what would you say are like some of what were or are still some of your biggest inspirations growing into your style. Yeah, so actually, here's my illustration that I did that I told you I won. That's the one. Yeah, this is the one. Wait, that was your first time using illustrator. Yeah, this is the first time. Are you kidding me? Oh my God. I spent a long time doing that one. So, so in terms of like my inspirations, I think some of my biggest inspirations come from science fiction actually. So I'm a huge Star Wars fan. I'm a huge and I can list a ton of movies like the one the thing alien like like the list goes on and on. Especially so prior to like this year and last year I really did a ton of science fiction illustrations and that's why I showed you this because my first illustration on illustrator was a science fiction illustration. And I, you know, I try to do a lot of science fiction related stuff. But recently it's really been focusing on kind of like real world like landscapes interior design, kind of mid century stuff and that's kind of where the Stanley Kubrick 2001 kind of inspirations come from and there's actually this thesis that he got his inspiration from the 19th is an art style, which is a modern art style that started in like the 30s and 20s 1930s 1920s, where it's kind of like that meme that's like, it's just like a white on white canvas, like, you know, like white paint on white canvas but it's kind of that form of art where it's like just a square on a canvas or something. But that type of art really inspires me a lot. And also a lot of people, which I didn't get this, I didn't get inspiration from him, but I guess retro like kind of just looking back like I can't see a lot of the similarities and now I do get some inspiration. And that person is Edward Hopper so he's the one that did like Nighthawks, and like so many other amazing illustrations and paintings, and then the biggest my biggest inspiration probably right now for my style of illustrating that I currently do is grant would. And he did like American Gothic. That's his most famous piece. My favorite piece from him from him is the midnight right midnight right of Paul Revere. And I actually got to see Grant was gallery when I was in Manhattan one year and I went to the Whitney and there was like the whole floor like the second floor was just dedicated to his exhibition. And so I saw American Gothic and I saw like all these other paintings and I remember I was just staring at the midnight right of Paul Revere for like 20 minutes while all my friends were like just looking at other stuff. And there was something that just caught my eyes just like, like I knew like that was my favorite painting, and that still is my favorite painting to this day. And so I think there's a lot of like to give like technical terms like American regionalism and realism is definitely my biggest inspirations right now. But just growing up, I love science fiction, like books science fiction movies, just all of it and so there's been a lot of like mix and match that have come and gone and so my most recent series called space really explores all those different things just kind of in one. Oh so the space is that the one, the most recent series we're seeing with a lot of the Midwest. Oh no here let me just a newer one. It's a newer one where it's kind of like, um, I'm take what I'm doing is I'm taking. Is it kind of like this one with the guy with the spaceman. Yeah yeah yeah it's this one over here. Yeah it's kind of like a culmination of my love for mid century modern interior design kind of minimalism and then of course like, you know science fiction. Yeah it's it's incredible man I can see when you explain it. Yeah, it's when you told me your story and all these things that have inspired you that you enjoy and you love and may not have necessarily been a thing before. But I look at your art and like okay yeah that's like a really crazy combination of how you were able to fuse those together. So that is that is some awesome stuff thank you for sharing that and we're reaching an hour soon so we'll close up in a little bit. I think one thing that if you want to leave one question I want to ask you before you go and I think something that would be super valuable for a lot of people listening to this, which are, I think a lot of people here are not primarily coming from one specific space of passion, because this is kind of like a hybrid right. Yeah, they're hybrid members they come from either like dance or movement, but they also want to combine it with some other thing. Right and I think that's the hardest part, not the hardest part but it's a it's a very common challenge is finding their own way to to kind of fuse that so I know you kind of gave a little bit of advice already and touching back on that is like, you know just just keep like diving into it right and as you go deeper you'll find your craft but is there anything else you'd want to say to someone who is struggling with you know trying to combine their their interests or their their current crafts like what would you say to them. Yeah, so I think you're struggling with whatever creative passions that you have or whatever it is in life, whether it's academic professional or you know creative or mix of any of them. I think the biggest thing is to look towards people who are more successful in the space that you're trying to go into. And all you have to do, like I said before is just ask and like reaching out to people sending an email. Like doesn't take takes maybe two minutes right to just ask a random question or a question about how they got a certain exhibition in a gallery or how they got into law school or medical school how they became a doctor, or how they want to jam or how you know they became a famous B boy what was their like first big win or, or basically anything really like, what was their breakthrough moment, or even like small questions like, like, do you want to do a collaboration or something random. I think when you dive into a space when you're passionate about an interest, you really have to dive into the space and see what other people are doing because everyone has like their own kind of story. And like, for example, we're all B boys in the space, but every B boy has something outside of breaking that they do that is that you know you could potentially learn from. And eventually you'll come across someone who has similar interests as you. And maybe they're doing it better than you are. And maybe it's important to just learn from that person. So for example, like, I have a friend out here, his name's Al Grande, and he is an emergency medicine doctor. And he's originally from the crew crooks. And so he's a breaker and dancer. Oh, sorry, he's a breaker and doctor. And of course, there's session, who's a psychiatrist and hobby court legendary hobby Coro right. And so there's people out there who are doing it better than I am. And it just doesn't hurt to reach out and ask and so I've talked to both of them. And, you know, I've just had meaningful discussions. And when it comes to artwork, you know, I'm always talking to people, whether it's on Twitter, whether it's Instagram, I'm sending emails, whether I'm talking to, like, gallery, people who are in galleries, people who run magazines, or just collectors, or even other artists. I think I can take something from everyone. Even if they're not more successful than I am just anyone has, everyone has like a unique story, and always just be humble about it. I think a lot of people are too quick to be arrogant and put themselves kind of like above others. And that's just the biggest fault that I've seen a lot of people because you're probably not going to make it if that's how you hold yourself. And so just always learn from everyone and just like take that opportunity to really listen to people, and you'll find something that's like a common interest in anyone you talk to, and there's always something to learn. It's really good advice. Yeah. And that's one of the big reasons why I think it was a good decision of mine to talk to you and have you on this, because I think you've provided a lot of value for, well, myself. And, and most definitely actually anybody who ends up listening to this so thank you so much for sharing your experience and your very unique story and I wish, and I hope and I, and I believe we will get the chance to talk more in the future. Oh, yeah, yeah. In person, if you're ever coming down to California, or if I find myself in Wisconsin. Where are you in San Diego? I'm in San Diego. Yeah. Okay, okay. Yeah, I mean, if I'm ever down in San Diego, I'll let you know for sure. I'm in a freestyle session, man. Oh, man. I went to the, I went to the Florida one. I think that was like, after that, I was like, oh man, no more Jams for the year. No worries, man. Yeah, we'll catch you soon at some point. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And where's a good place for people to find you? What are, what are some plugs or resources you'd like to shed out if we will check you out on? Um, so I think the best way to find me is just on Instagram. That's because I think I have a catchy handle, no time to burn, no caps, no underscore, no space, no periods, just no time to burn. I'm also on Twitter at GrantYUN2, but that's really just for like crypto NFT art stuff. And if you wanted to go to my website, it's ribbonriven.com. Awesome. Yeah, I get why that's your name now. No time to burn. It just, yeah, after talking to him, like, all right, yep. All right, man. Well, dude, thank you, ribbon. This has been an amazing talk. And yeah, I hope you guys check him out on his Instagram and his website and check out his art.  So check it out. All right. Thank you so much, man. Thanks, man. See you. Hello, my friend. It is Kai again. And thank you so much for watching another episode of the Movement Media Mentor podcast. I genuinely hope that this episode brought you a lot of value you can implement into sharing your greatest movements. And if you liked it, or if you have any feedback, I would highly, highly appreciate it. If you take a look at whatever platform you're listening to on, whether it's YouTube or Spotify, Apple Podcast, Anker, you name it, leave a feedback, leave comments, review it, rid five stars, all of it helps. And if you are interested in pushing your Movement Media journey forward, whether that is creating a career as a dancer or making more films or finding your way into the industry or building your own platform, I would highly recommend you check out our Movement Media Mentorship. And this is where you will get one-on-one guidance from myself and other students and teachers and professionals in the industry who will give you one-on-one pointers, as well as a full course database on a bunch of topics that you can learn from, including if you are interested, then take a look at MovementMediaMentor.com. I would love to see you in there. If not, thank you for listening and I will see you in the next one. Take care.


Yeah, so let's rumble. Okay, absolutely special. Thank you for having us here. We bring a AR and AI to industry 4.0 We come from Poland. We work in three main areas. So we make human work more efficient We improve the education and we enhance remote communications in all of these three areas We are game changers not disruptors, which means that we rather improve than disrupt. Well, that's it for now So far we have developed a sophisticated framework that enables quick a quick application production You can see three examples of the application for example the one for designing the interiors of the car with a collision check the one for teaching the engine assembly the one for Helping workers to complete the electrical installation within the body of the car We did it with our customers not to let these applications and we have several Already not to let them rot in projects managers. Drawers just as prototypes We provided our customers with management system for these applications that enables Managing devices users and also the holographic assets within the applications And this is why we generated more than half a million euro income this year only with our customers the future for us something we want to do is we want to provide the industry with the most Powerful framework for a our AI and VR applications and one platform to rule them all Okay, why are we the right people for the job? We take good selfies as you might see Okay, we've got skillful developers. That's number one. Yeah, we were selected as just one of five Companies from all over the world for a Siemens and Volkswagen hackathon this year's and the secret hackathon not so secret now Generally we are successful entrepreneurs We have one wolf summit industry lab start up spark and we have the experience sales force Believe me like you know acquiring Volkswagen Ericsson and Zeta or be brown as customers is not an easy thing to do Okay, and we have plans to grow. We have already exceeded our own expectations As you might see we wanted to do like 15 apps this year. We did like 18 at the moment the platform Has more than 50 users now. We are planning to have 2,000 users In two years, of course, these are two different things. Yeah apps is something that everybody's Allowed to do platform is something that everybody's allowed to use but only by us. Okay You can make your 4.0 come true with the Bizumi. Thank you very much. I'm waiting for your questions Thank you Pa. Well, so what makes your platform unique and what does it actually do? I believe that the first thing that makes it unique is that it exists already and that it's implemented in Volkswagen for example, which means that People can use prototypes not only our prototypes, but also other startups third-party users They can use the prototypes in 120 plants are over the world. Yeah, they are able to test them around them and change the holographic Assets within them, which is kind of revolutionary and the only one in the world at the moment. I believe Thank you so much a good very good speech Two questions here. So one what do you think will take you to succeed in this market? I understand that now you are in the proof-of-concept space or Right project not exactly. Well, you can explain But so what does it take really to become a standard de facto platform? This is number one question and number two. What is the sales cycle? How long would it take you to win other customers in this space? Thank you So Some of our projects are POCs, but we have three implementations already that run globally within the Volkswagen infrastructure when it comes to How we want to develop we need new customers. We need new knowledge from you from new customers So this is something we really need and the sales cycle is quite quick like I'm back from Ingolstadt I had a meeting yesterday with Aldi And so we are implementing the platform there in January. So, you know, the first thing was The most difficult one to start Yeah, it took us like half a year to get the first automotive customer Which was Volkswagen at the moment we are running in the synergy group, which they provided us to and so on and so forth So this is mostly BTL Actions and they are totally effective. We have good sales force. We want to improve. We want to go to other customers too, right One quick question How much do you have so recurring revenue out of the revenue you currently have and how much is that this project? Several thousands euro a month. Yeah at the moment Yeah, this is because of the platform users because the applications are license-based. Yeah and user-based also Thank you. Thank you for the very good pitch and sorry for the hassle


I think it's more likely to cause permanent hearing loss rather than like Reduce sensory input. I suppose that might reduce sensory input At the cost of your hearing if that's that's a reasonable suggestion But actually like this is quite a common thing that people say to autistic people actually who struggle with sensory difficulties Just get used to it


So next, let's get ahead a little bit of the news and think what could be a next step. So I'm very happy to be joined on the panel by Professor Jiro Temura from Keio University. He's a specialist on negotiation, trade law, and Tim Stratford, partner at Comington and Burlington here in China, and a former assistant of the US Trade Representative Office. So I would like to start with a little bit of the concepts around this. We're talking about beyond tariffs. So we already have tariffs. How could it go further? How could it escalate? So when we use that word escalate in negotiations, Jiro, what does that mean? And what happens in this kind of context when you escalate? Let me talk about the Japanese experience what we are having with President Trump's trade negotiation. One key word is he uses the word free, fair, and reciprocal. Free and fair, as you know, is a very common word already used. And the world has a pretty much good understanding of what it should mean. But reciprocal is a word already used in trade terms in the World Trade Organization. Reciprocal means it should have this same opportunity. In Japan's market, President Trump thinks it is very close. So he wants Japan to buy products. But this is giving the chance the opportunity the same and not expecting for results. But of course, President Trump wants the results there. So there, he's like raising tariffs. And in the negotiation logic, which is another expertise that I have, he would raise tariffs as if he would do a during-the-face type of tactic. It's a very simple negotiation tactic where you kind of bring a factor or a card in front of you and say, OK, you have to negotiate from there. So Japan is really having a hard time there. But since we have this free, fair, and reciprocal notion there, I think Japan should really focus on that kind of negotiation. And now China is facing a similar problem of that. And trade, as you know, once you have higher tariffs, then if you get into this kind of race of raising tariffs and on, you will come to a point where the other side has to either give up or make concessions. And it would never be good for the actual trade. There would be never not a good development from there. So I think what we should do is to make sure that we should not just fall into a negotiation tactics used by President Trump and get into a real focus on how trade should be, and it should be a multilateral and free and fair trade. Thanks, Joe. Tim, how do things look from China? Well, I think in China, the first challenge has been to figure out what does the US really want. And it's taken a while, I think, for the administration to communicate that in a way that the Chinese side has understood, because there have been different voices coming from the US government. But I think now, particularly because of the recent visit of vice ministers to the United States, China has a clear idea that the real issues are not the bilateral trade deficit, but the real issues are some systemic differences between the US economic system and the Chinese system. And the US view is that China has embarked on a path where they have state-led economic development in many key sectors of the economy and that this is against the fundamental underlying assumptions of the WTO and that, therefore, this is causing harm. The analogy I use is football. And one team shows up on one side of the field. They're the World Cup champions. And on the other side of the field, you have the Super Bowl champions. And they're both there to play football, but they have very different ideas. And each team plays a very good game, but the rules that they play are designed to showcase different skill sets. The World Cup football team is very agile. They move very quickly. They adjust rapidly. The American football team is more deliberate. Every play is planned. Every player on the team has a coordinated role. They have protective gear. And basically, the US and Chinese economies are sort of like these two teams playing on the same field. So the question is, how do you deal with that? And the US side, by putting down tariffs, is trying to pressure the Chinese government to change to play more our style of football. And by the way, in my analogy, I think the Chinese economy is more like American style football, right? But the US government wants China to move more in a market-oriented development model. And the Chinese government believes that what they're doing now is in their own best interests. And in fact, they're concerned that perhaps the US motivation is wanting to keep China down and wanting to suppress their growth, wanting to contain China. And so as China is responding to these tariffs, they don't want to make the changes the US is asking for and they're suspicious of US motivations. So you actually have a very big gap between the US side and the Chinese side. I expect, therefore, that we're going to have a deadlock for quite some time. Because the issues are very complicated. And neither side wants to change its point of view. And the fallback position for some in the United States is that if the Chinese economic system is putting harm on the US economy and on US companies, the next best thing to agree to solve the problem is to have a gradual decoupling.  And already companies have to factor this into their planning. There was a survey done by Amcham China and by Amcham Shanghai last week. The results were issued on Thursday. And it showed that more than, well, a very large percentage of the companies are looking at resourcing supplies, looking at investment decisions, and so on. So already this is taking place. So for the Chinese government, it's going to take you a while to figure out what is the proper response. You're not going to want to make major changes to your economic system if you have no other choice. So it's going to take a while to assess is the US really going to impose all these tariffs? And if so, how big of a hit are we really going to take? And will the US side back away because of domestic pressures? And until some time has passed, they're not going to be able to make that judgment. And so we're going to have to be in a deadlock for a period of time. Thank you. Just one quick note to what Tim said. Japan went through the same experience about 30 years ago on the structural impediments initiative, which I think Tim was involved on. This actually meant that the US system and the Japanese system is different. And one key word to that was the competition. Do you have the competition law that really works and actually make the firms compete free and fairly inside the country? That is like the football rule that you have mentioned. And Japan has made that effort to change. And that is something I think is a very important point that you have to also send a message to China because China is more bound for trade-oriented probably structure, where maybe subsidies might be still be there with the national institutions having a strong effect. And that will lead to trade imbalances. So I think there should be an understanding of, I would say, the word that Sir Leon Britton has said about 30 years ago about trade and competition. Trade and competition, both rules should converge to a certain level so that there would be a better understanding of what competition rules should be in a capitalist world. Thank you, George. I'd like to go out to some questions in a couple of minutes. But first, I just want to orientate the discussion a little bit towards the future. And get some comments from, start with Jiro. Where do you think this can go next? Deadlock is the word Tim used for a period. But then if the teams can't play by the same rules, or if they decide to go home, then how could this bleed over into other areas of the economy for these countries involved, but also for the rest of us? Well, this is a very tough question. It's up to what President Trump is thinking. President Trump, as you know, is a businessman who did very well in his business strategy, business type of negotiation, which is, again, like using the door in the face or anchoring highball. All these type of negotiation tactics he's using in politics. I don't think ever in history the United States President has ever done this. But usually these tactics will work because the other side will give in in the end. And so you're just actually doing a race. And usually he knows that his President Trump probably knows that time is short. It can't be a long run thing. So at a certain level, he's going to really try to figure out how to get out of this by having their staffs negotiate with the Chinese experts to come with some kind of understanding. And that's the way I see it. I don't think he is going to just keep on going until the other side, I mean, the both sides would kind of come into a big disagreement and get into a real serious situation. Well, if you have the view that the Chinese economic system is causing harm on the US economic system, which I think some important leaders in the US government have, then you're not going to be in a hurry to increase the engagement if it's going to be on the old terms. And therefore, you're going to think that the deadlock is a better long-term approach than going back to the status quo before. But you're not going to want the retaliation to keep going indefinitely because complete decoupling between the two economies is definitely not an optimum result for either one. So what you're going to want to do is cause the economies to restructure the way they do business with each other.  So President Trump has said he's imposing this next $200 billion. He's also said that if China retaliates, he'll impose another $267,000,000 tariffs on $267 billion goods on top of that. We hope that we don't get that far. And my expectation is that we'll arrive at a kind of a stasis and we'll be in that for a period of time where both sides will be able to think deeply about what is the best path forward. And then they'll gradually be able to approach each other with a different mindset than we have today. Do you see it going outside of the tariffs area? Well, it already has. In the survey that I've mentioned, over half of the American companies doing business in China that respond to the survey say that they're already experiencing some sort of pressure, maybe increased inspections, maybe goods are slower going through customs, maybe investment decisions or approvals by the Chinese government are being withheld. And this is a very complicated situation because on the one hand, the Chinese government would like to convey the message that we need to treat China properly or they can respond and it won't be good for us. On the other hand, they don't want to scare away the American companies doing business in China. So trying to find that right line has been very tricky. And I think what we're seeing is assurances and also retaliation happening at the same time. Jerry, could you just briefly say from a negotiations point of view, what happens when negotiation kind of goes from one issue to bundle or package up with other issues? Well, it really depends. I mean, bundling is one way of negotiation because when negotiation comes to a really deadlock, what happens is you kind of barter one thing with the other. And I can only speak for the Japanese case. When the Japanese case, there's a North Korean abductee issue, the defense treaty with the United States where US is defending the Japanese territory. So all these things, the past president has never done this to link with trade, these kind of issues. But President Trump seems to be like bundling these issues, although not really that much in the public. But it seems like with the negotiation with Prime Minister Abe and Japanese government, those type of things are actually put in there. It seems like the Japanese government is buying more military products from the United States. And Prime Minister Abe is very happy that North abductee issue is one of the top issues for President Trump. The abduction issue. Abduction issue, which sounds a little bit strange, but I'm sure there's that kind of a bundling negotiation like Philip you have mentioned, yeah. Thank you very much. It might work in that way. What I'd like to do now is go out to the audience and give an opportunity for some questions. If you could, please identify yourself and keep the questions short. And then we'll get through as many as we can in the remainder of the time. Yes, sir, please. Yes, I'm Bruce. I'm from Zhejiang Daily News Agency. I think most of her countries will support open world trade, but is there anything countries will get benefits from on China, US trade dispute? Sorry, sir, you're asking about the benefits? Is there anything countries can get benefits or can sometimes make more income or more benefits from if US and China have the trade dispute? Who could benefit? Any countries or sectors could benefit? Trade friction. Tim, do you want to go first with that? Well, I think if the US doesn't sell soy beans to China, for example, you look at other soy producers. And so there may be some possibilities of some people to fill in some gaps by the same token American companies that were sourcing some products from China are looking at other countries. And the AMTAM survey I mentioned talks about what are some of the other alternative suppliers that are American companies are referring to Vietnam, Malaysia, some other countries. So there will be some opportunities. The biggest question is whether the EU and Japan, which actually share exactly the same concerns about the Chinese system that the US has, whether they will end up supporting the basic positions that the US is taking, or whether they will see opportunities to benefit from a split between the US and China. And so I think that's one of the things that everybody is watching very carefully. Let me talk more from the country and country type of benefit. Like I mentioned earlier, US and Japan 30 years ago had a big conflict over how the system should be. And that actually affected the Japanese to really think about more competition internally, and not just export-oriented type of country style. And that's also what's in a different way maybe, but President Trump is doing to China. So you see China as a country that's quite export-oriented right now. Now you have a big domestic market.  If that happens, then it would be beneficial for many other countries, including China in the end. But unfortunately, it doesn't seem like that's the approach he's taking. But this conflict may lead to that kind of result, because of the word that I use, fee, fair, and reciprocal. If that works in the right manner, then it would be good for the whole capitalism world. So it would be a good thing if that happens. So I think there was a question here in the front, please. So do you see a challenge with the globalization that if the US continues to do this, then I see a challenge of their currency strengthening a lot. So their export will become less competitive. And is it going to force other countries to start looking inwards? And countries like India or others who are largely dependent on import, they're also going into the similar trade wars. I think right now there are a lot of, there's a lot of thinking and soul searching being done about the global trading system. If you look at the assumptions that underlie the World Trade Organization, for example, certainly the global GDP has improved because of free and open trade. But I think a lot of people are seeing, for example, that the benefits and the dislocations from global trade were not always allocated equitably in our various countries. And so you have populist movements that are challenging the global trading system. You have Brexit, you have American political candidates who were against TPP and who are saying, disparaging things about trade and about WTO. We see similar challenges in Europe. So I think some of the assumptions that were behind the foundation of the World Trade Organization are being challenged. If you look at US-China relations, China intervenes in their economy in ways that were not contemplated when the WTO was formed. Every country intervenes to a certain extent, but they don't have economies the size of China's and they don't intervene in as many different trade sectors as China does. I mean, the EU and the US are always fighting about commercial aircraft, Airbus, Boeing. But in China, we could potentially have 50 of those kinds of disputes going on across a big range. And that's not the way that you can really have a trading relationship. So that's one challenge. Another challenge is that China has decided that they should be self-sufficient in certain industry sectors, semiconductors. They feel threatened. The recent ZTE case was an example of that vulnerability. Now whether you agree with that assessment or not, if a country decides it wants to be self-sufficient, then you're throwing the principle of comparative advantage out the window. And the trade rules that are based on comparative advantage don't apply. So that's another challenge. The third challenge is national security. Every country has a right to protect its national security. Now we have more and more technologies that are not originally developed from defense industries, but from the private sector. And these technologies go across many different industry sectors, but they also have national security implications. So how do you protect your national security, which is a very legitimate objective, and look at these technologies that are going across so many different industry sectors? These are all new challenges that we have to think through as we look at how we continue to have the benefits of free and open trade and reciprocal trade in an evolving global system. Just one more, I agree with what Tim said. We should keep in mind that the World Trade Organization is definitely one very important institution that we have to keep maintaining because most of the free trade agreements, regional arrangements actually will have to try to abide by what the WTO does. So they call it WTO plus. Now if you don't have that kind of institution anymore, then these free trade agreements, if it's like a big agreement like TPP, that might be better. But if like President Trump is saying bilateral, bilateral, then you only have the two countries' interests involved and the political interests would overpower free and fair type of notion of trade. So it would be better to have the World Trade Organization govern the whole system and then have the regional trades that would comply within those boundaries and move on. And that would be a better way for all of us, yeah. Thank you very much. I think there's a question here first, please. Thank you, Andy from Institute of Chartered Accountant. So Professor, do you expect that China will retaliate and what are the measures? Because my understanding that China is going to be running out of reciprocal procedures if it's purely on tariff. The government is talking about quantitative as well as qualitative measures and what do you expect that to be or those to be? And we don't expect the last tranche to be implemented as soon as this, but it is happening. So what do you think the future will be for us? Thank you. I think Tim Goodman answered that better. China issues is more of the excellent question. Well, China has said that if the US imposed this set of tariffs on 200 billion of China's products that they would impose tariffs on another 60 billion of US products. And so we can certainly expect that China will carry out what it said. But you're right, because of the imbalance and imports and exports between the two countries, there are a lot more imports that the US can impose tariffs on than China can. And so China has talked about qualitative measures, but this comes back to what I said a moment ago. At times they have said qualitative measures and at other times they have said, don't worry, we're not gonna retaliate against American companies doing business here, because they don't wanna add to the incentive of American companies to be looking at investing elsewhere into source products elsewhere. So it's a very difficult policy decision on China's part to find just the right touch to do this. And I think we're still seeing this sort itself out. But I don't think that China is going, I mean, they're gonna try to show that they will stand up to the US and not just be pushed around. But I don't think they wanna be seen as escalating things.  And I think that would be very bad for both countries. And so I think China is properly being very cautious about that. Thanks, Tim. Yes, I think just behind, there's a question there. I'm from Phoenix Finance. And I'm from Phoenix Finance. And from Tamura, Mr. Tamura, you talked about Japan 30 years ago. You talked about Japan 30 years ago, 30 years ago in Japan. And it's very similar to what it is like now in China. It's not only about the trade wars, but China is facing the problems of this aging, population aging and the economic growth coming to a plateau. And those three things connected, trade wars, population aging and economic growth coming to a plateau. Thank you very much for the question. Well, you're right, Japan's also aging population, I think is a very serious problem. And Japan is trying to figure out a way to get out of that. I think you asked a very interesting question because aging population and economic growth is not going to be always increasing. I mean, always heading for the better. It's gonna become a more serious problem. Aging population, economic growth coming down. Again, the only way to get out of that is to really have a sound economic system, which I think the United States was right in the sense that you have to have competition rules, domestically, not just internationally. Just say the other party is not trading fairly, is not the important thing. The important thing is whether you have free and fair competition within. So that is if you allow foreign competitors to come in and also try to compete in a fair manner. Why? Because that will strengthen your own industry as well. If you're protecting your own industry and if you have these aging problem or growth problem, you're just gonna have a very sad end at the end. And Japan has made the effort to really allow competition rules to really have a big say in our system. And that's why we're having good competition from outside coming in. So we're really keeping our economy at a fairly low, not a good level because of this new good competition rule. So that's why, as I said before, trade and competition should go in line together. And unfortunately, the WTO and most of the rules have stayed away from bringing in competition rules because that will not help domestic industries in the short run, but in the long run, you should have competition rules that will make your own country's strength much better. You know, along the same lines, I had a conversation with the Chinese official last week and he told me that his private opinion was that if China accepted every one of the demands that the US is putting on the table right now, that the Chinese economy would turn out to be much stronger. And so his private view was sort of similar to your view. Private view, private view. Very much a private view. Any more questions here? Lady in the front row, please. Thanks very much. I can see that this is rhetorically popular in the United States, but just looking at the domestic pressures on Trump with the midterms coming up, he's effectively put a tax on American consumers. He's certainly damaged soy farmers and Canada's hanging tough. He's kind of declared war on everyone, not obviously China's the biggest foe, but he's also declared war on EU and on Canada. Do you think he needs a victory before the midterms? And do you think that therefore it's in China's interest to make sure that he doesn't get one? I actually think that the midterms are not a material factor in this discussion. I think that it's completely implausible to me that we could have a victory between now and the midterms. As I've said, the challenges, the gap between the US position and the Chinese position is simply too great. And China's not gonna be prepared to put on the table the sorts of things they would need to in order to have a deal because they don't wanna do those things. They don't particularly trust US motivations. They don't think they're in China's own interests and they would have to be squeezed a lot more and be persuaded that China's, or that the tariffs are gonna continue to be imposed by the US before they would be willing to put something so meaningful on the table. So I don't think the midterms are a significant factor in what we're seeing between the US and China right now. We have time for one last question. Yes, please. I'm Lee from the Wall Street Journal. I have a question for Tim. Could you talk a bit more about the short-term impact of the 200 billion tariffs on China's economy and China's role in the global supply chain? And how long do you think the debt log period will last? Thank you. A majority of the American companies in the survey said that they're looking at changing some of their sourcing decisions from China. So that's gotta be having an impact. I think it's gonna take some time to see what the real impact is as this next 200 billion of products are subject to tariffs. That's gonna accelerate the effort. And I think President Trump said that if China retaliates against that, he's gonna impose them on the next 267 billion. So I think that companies really have to be looking at supply chains. If it's still, if you can absorb a 25% tariff, then you'll keep it where it is. But if not, then you're gonna look at change. So I think it really is having an impact. And the United States as a supplier to Chinese companies is also affected because the Chinese products, I mean, the US products coming to China are also gonna be subjected to these tariffs. So I think this really is having a significant disruptive impact upon companies planning. Thanks. Jonah, any final comments? Well, I would like to repeat the same thing. I'm a scholar. I think what should be right should be right. So what I'd like to say is the free and fair trade is something you can only achieve with a multilateral approach. And that's why WTO is important. And also the keyword trade and competition. This has been a word that has been said for a long time but the world has been divided in these arena. And that's why many countries just focus on trade only. But like the United States focus a lot on competition, that's why US is very strong competition trade. There was a balance there. And Japan is learning from that and I think China should learn from that. And the more you do competition within, then you will have a very strong economy and you will have good strong trade as well. And that's how the world should be. And I think that should be the answer that China and US should come to agree in the end. Thank you. So there we are. Thank you very much everyone for your great questions. Tim Stratford coming to Berlin. Thank you very much for all the answers and the explanation you give. Jira Tamura, K-University, thank you very much. These issues will be taken up in many of the sessions we have coming up in the next couple of days. So please.