Quietest opening. I guess if I don't say something everybody has waiting for me to say some hi. Hi with life Hello, oh should I play a sting? I don't know. I'm a little worried on the on the live video if it gets us killed by the bot or not I just never know Do you have a radio Holland claims this music? Can you tell how long there? 75 degrees in Los Angeles mostly scunny skies. We're dipping down to 66 tonight Scott Johnson to Tom Merritt with you along the way this afternoon getting you through getting you home with the traffic report Coming up from 15 minutes from Roger Chang in the meantime. Let's get into the music here the Ramones man Schools out for summer Now you really that's really stuck with you probably that was probably really in uh Heavy influence, right? Like I mean 16 when I started doing oh, yeah stuff like that. Well, yeah, I just Absolutely That's why I could still quote Chaucer and Shakespeare that the stuff that I learned in high school I can't tell you what I had for breakfast yesterday. Well, I can because I have the same thing every day, but What do you eat every day? What's your what's your go-to lately? I have changed from yogurt to kefir But it is generally a muesli and kefir Uh with some blueberries and bananas That is some smarty That is some california bread Hi What did I have? Oh, I had eggs and toast I made eggs. I made eggs in a in a pyrex Got a container That's that's that's a real breakfast right there. That's a man. That sounds good. I'm coming to your house for breakfast from now I toasted it and added butter and ate it because I was hungry. Yeah I did uh Something similar except it wasn't eggs. It was toast and bacon. I skipped the eggs all together Yeah, I'm trying to avoid um the red meats Like I know I'll get enough of it in my in my in my diet So there's no need to go out of my way to add it. Yeah, I do the bacon on the weekend mostly I Just I would I would eat bacon every day for breakfast if someone made it for me. I just don't want to go to the trouble I couldn't I'm just making a lot. What are you at for breakfast Scott?  Is that oh, yeah, it depends I mean kim's always trying to get me to eat the stuff you're eating So I'll just start doing that But right now I'm kind of it's just easy Eileen has pretty much the same thing hers is yogurt not kefir and granola not muesli. She doesn't like to muesli It's a little bits and muesli that bugged me. I mean It's like eating dirt. Yeah, what do you eat? That twinks Wikipedia didn't work I sometimes will be bold and have a bowl of cereal where I mix in three cereals because I I'm running low on all of them and they don't want to bite you Is a mixture of roasted barley rye oat and pea flour I've never peed in flour Don't pee in the flour I used to get bob's red mill muesli fire dog, but I stopped buying and I started making my own muesli Because then I can vary up the the dried fruits in it. It's cheaper You can decide how much mues and how much What's the difference in that mueslicks? Is mueslicks just somebody's version of muesli? Mueslicks is a cereal based on muesli. Okay, although So what's the what's the laxative one? No, I'm not muslin x. Um, that's what a muesl Meta muesl. I also Every morning a little bit of muesl Uh, no, I was oh, I was not muesli. Oh, what was it? Oh, man, I totally spit. Oh, no what I do. I still have my magic bullet So I'll take whatever remaining frozen food I have in the freezer and I'll take the Head of kale that I buy once every two weeks and shove it in there and drink it All right, well Scott Johnson. Yeah, that's me. You are prepared Hmm. I don't care what Billy didn't says I don't care what he says either. He's never I I had the person who voices it might care very much Oh, we love Liam's great, but Illidan himself. I forget it. All right hiding Roger's hiding Roger partying stories loading Intro ready The daily tech news shows brought to you by listeners just like me and you not outside organizations to find out how you can contribute Visit daily tech news show dot com forward slash support This is the daily tech news for wednesday july 19th 2017. I'm top merit scott johnson along this afternoon getting you home On a wednesday afternoon everybody Actually, a lot of people listen to this in the morning so it doesn't work Yeah, you were uh earlier doing an incredible throwback to like some old school radio technique And I think it's gonna bleed through today's episode. It's gonna happen again. I can feel it It might we're gonna kick off 30 minutes of commercial free technology news Doesn't have the same ring does it no, but I love it because it's a it's a I think it's a thing that probably Benefited you like turns you into like a real capable radio dude And now you've got this refined thing that doesn't need that kind of right zoo tone anymore But you don't have a rock block of tech news though That's right. We're gonna spin the hits until the next eight hour commercial break everybody Let's start off with a few tech things you should know The us college board reports more than 29 700 female students took advanced placement tests in computer science in 2017 Up 135 percent from last year a new ap course designed to introduce principles of computer science was introduced And may have aided that jump college board also noted an increase of 170 percent among black and latino students in the us To 22,000. I think that's awesome. I I want to see I was telling you this morning on the morning show I want to see what this workforce is in five years I think that sounds super interesting and like a very diverse workforce in a place that Is going to make the tech sector a little more vibrant. I'm stoked about that Uh samsung launched its bixby voice assistant You know the one I hate and I would never say out loud But i'm going to do it for this show in the us for galaxy s8 users So if you're one of those users you've likely already got it if you desire to use it the second market To get bixby after south korea users can activate bixby by pressing its dedicated button and installing an update Press that button. We actually have somebody who tried this out already and emailed about it We'll talk about that a little later. I hear some other top stories apple wireless software engineering leader isabel gay may Will move to shanghai to take on a new role as vp a managing director of apple's greater china business She'll report to ceo tim cook and c o o jeff williams. She is a native of china She was born there and then went to college in canada and the us She's worked on key products like apple pay home kit carplay as well as some of the china focused ios features like qr Code support apple's china business. It has experienced five straight quarters of declining revenue and it is Still a potentially huge market for them. They have a lot of room to grow if they can figure it out Yeah, I think she sounds like a great a great pick She certainly has a bunch of experience in the apple stuff. That's what you want But you also probably aren't gonna be harmed by having somebody who understands the culture Understands the business culture and understands the way the laws and cultures work there in general You need more of that to break into china in ways that are more meaningful and certainly apple among others Are a company that want to do that more and better Nintendo released its switch app for android and ios. So this is ahead of the launch of splatoon 2 on friday We knew that this was probably going to happen But everybody kind of assumed that the app would come out day in day I think they're maybe doing some early load testing or you know just generally get it out there So it's one less thing to sort of worry about on the big launch Things will be nuts as it is But anyway, the app will allow features like voice chat and game invites This all starts with splatoon 2 and more games down the road There are some concerns that appears for example When you use the app and you want to use the voice functionality you have to have the app open and on The entire time that you're using it won't work in the background. Is that it? Yeah, and that's obnoxious. So they need to fix that. That's easily fixable. There are plenty of apps will work in the background I hear here's my guess on that one engineer says well, why would you need to do anything else on the phone? You're playing the game. Yeah, right? No that i'm and and sure, but i'm gonna say They didn't ask gamers how they use voice tech yep And they're their game they'll use the phone when it makes sense to use the phone But an on all the time thing is not what people are going to look for while they're playing the game They want to connect with their friends like they do already with discord or other services They want to start those voice channels and they want to turn it off and have it happen in the background If it's on a phone if it's on the console itself Like all this does in my opinion Is make it harder for Nintendo to explain themselves about having to have this separate app and not having this functionality through the console itself Well, and that's the thing, right? I mean think about it If you want to be able to hear your game sounds and talk on this app and hear people talk back You need a splitter because you got audio coming from two places now. You could use speakerphone. I suppose But that's not ideal. There's a lot of people who really want to hear really well have it in their headphones, right? there there is a Game headset built for this that you can get but not everybody wants to spend more money To buy another piece of equipment if they don't already have that And the other thing is well, if you're going to go to all that trouble anyway, why not just use skype Which can you work in the background? You know, yeah, I mean you discord right now I could use discord with 30 of my friends or discord. Yeah, absolutely Whatever and and not have to worry about this so it to me it just feels like they're not paying attention to what people already do in 100 cases on pc on other console platforms Like there's data out there that would help you know how to design this and I'm not sure they know what they're doing yet But that being said, I think the app has potential. I like their idea of Every game kind of gets its own part part of the app That's the plan anyway I think that's interesting It'll make more sense once more features besides the chat and more games show up there I'll grant you that. Yeah, and we can't judge it on this first week is no way. It's too early, but Yeah, just Sawyer She's she's got some opinions I I hope that Friday when that when the actual game comes out, which is now what two days away That they're ready enough though to handle the load that Splatoon 2 is expected to be a big hit and they need to be You know as ready as they can be Facebook's Campbell Brown told the digital publishing innovation summit Tuesday that facebook may begin testing a paywall for news stories as early as October Plan is still being developed but a source told tech crunch it would be along the lines of giving users 10 free articles a month Before requiring them to purchase a subscription or at least authenticate one they already had To be clear it would be a subscription with the publisher So if you want to read your 11th wall street journal article or your 11th new york times article For example, you would need to log in with your subscription for those publishers Facebook isn't selling these subscriptions In fact, facebook doesn't really want to do this from from what I can tell They're only doing it to keep the publishers happy. I know the exact comparison here and it's uh, it's what prime video is doing for amazon Started out as their content license content and prime subscription Soon it became a place to go get an add-on subscription to hbo and showtime and stars and everybody else And they've they've done this now For a while, but they nobody's ever accused amazon of being of you know, they're not telling you to be yeah, but the The analogy breaks down when you think about history We are historically accustomed to only getting to watch cable television that we pay for You pay for the amazon video Even if it's part of your prime subscription and then you're used to like oh, if and I want to watch stars I pay extra watch stars, right? We're not we're not accustomed to that with reading stories on the web reading stories on the web is free We're used to just going to a website and going free and anything outside of big mainstream organizations, uh, like technology news or or entertainment blogs Those are all free. So it's an entirely different expectation, especially in facebook where up until now Everything has been free. You never hit a paywall in facebook. So I'm not saying it won't work Wall Street Journal has made a very successful paywall if they if anybody can make it work in facebook. It's the wall street journal Uh, but it is definitely counterculture to what people are used to I wonder if it would drive though any new wall street journal subscriptions Which I would think would be the idea otherwise just send people off to the wall street journal like normal You know what I mean like if i'm on facebook and i'm presented with an article it says wall street journal requires a subscription I'm either I already already or either already have that or I already don't want that So right so i'm kind of with you on that point and and the analogy isn't really one to one and certainly But I think it's going to be there's going to be some brand confusion where people are going to think that this is facebook saying We're going to start charging for access to internet articles and that's bad They do not want that because there's there's been that that ridiculous rumor For decades now practically that facebook was going to start charging you next week, right? Like that's a meme on the internet And this is going to feed the fears of people who don't pay attention closely and think that that might be true On the other hand if you're a wall street journal subscriber and you pay for it This is nice because you you're saying you're you're going to see it as oh, wow This is more value from my subscription. I can now log in and still read these right here on facebook But most people aren't So so it's just going to be Of reason for them not to read that article If the if they hit the 10 limit, which is why they do 10 free Because you know that that keeps that limit from being hit hard and it only Hits the people who are reading a lot of your articles who might say, uh, well, you know what I read a lot of their stuff It's worth paying for you think it's worth do you think amazon or amazon keep saying amazon Do you think facebook's benefit here is that they're keeping people in the wall in other words For sure they don't want people to leave and go law wall street journal It'd be fine with people go into the wall street journal's website and log it in Then they get to capture that entire relationship Yeah, because it doesn't sound like they're actually a benefit monetarily other than they're going to keep eyeballs where they want them Yeah, uh, what's app users in china have reported an inability to use the messaging app without vpn for photos and videos Uh, simple text messages still seem to get through bloomberg reports. What's app is not responsible for the outage the thinking is that China and isps controlled or influenced by the state are doing that however Um, I just want to say real quick. I have I've got I'm in a I said this yesterday on as a guest on tnt I am I'm in a relationship with with what's app now I don't know when it happened or how it happened, but My international friends and some family members Have all kind of glommed on to it as the go-to For sort of cross-continental communication and I was scoffing at it originally didn't think it was going to be that Big a deal just yet another messaging app. I thought it would be cluttered. It wasn't I thought it'd be a pain. It's not Um, I wanted desktop they have it like all of that stuff is there and I really like it So I kind of feel bad that people in china can't use it the way they want to because I think it's a pretty tight app I know facebook owns it, but they haven't meddled with it in the way that they've meddled with like I don't know well message because facebook is not allowed in china But but apparently what's app kind of skated in under that because they they were operating before facebook bought them and My guess is with the the passing of the the recent dissident china is cracking down on the sharing of images and videos specifically about that person so That may be what's going on here and it may be temporary. It'll be interesting to see Yeah, but there's still ways around it like said vpn and things like that Although I guess use that stuff at your own risk cracking out on vpn too requiring The isp is not to pass along vpn traffic unless it's from an authorized corporate agency So I haven't looked this up, but I assume you can't even get like signal in china right because signals like Has to be the biggest no-no ever it's end-to-end encryption Least trackable I don't know that they could stop someone from using it through a vpn if they could get a vpn That's a that's a fair question though is like how how easy or hard is it to use signal in china? I mean you can use tor in china, but again, you have to you have to work around some some blocks to do it yep security software company avast has acquired Puriform That's a uk company and if you're like, I don't know that is maybe you do because they make c cleaner C cleaner is probably the most popular way to get temporary files cleaned up off your windows your mac your android system C cleaner has 130 million users been around forever We were talking about c cleaner on tech tv back in the day They are now part of avast which by the way just bought avg last year In fact now i'm thinking about it when I used to do top fives at c net a lot of times I'd do top five downloads and the top five downloads would be a vast avg and c cleaner So they're all all in one I don't remember what the other two might have been Puriform employees will join avast consumer business unit and c cleaner will continue as a standalone product Nice, I always wonder if those things are doing anything for me. I have a couple of them. I run them They're cool I feel like they're telling me that memories being freed up or Some dead disk space drive that wasn't being used or has old files that we can purge that they're being removed but I never really noticed any kind of like Huge boost so i'm not actually sure why this stuff is successful that it is I wonder if it just makes people feel better about other machines running and and that's enough Well at the very least it'll free up space If you've got a smaller hard drive you're getting towards your limit I've used c cleaner for exactly that that reason in the past And what's funny is avast and navi g also have competing software That does exactly this and it doesn't look like they're going to get rid of any of them They're just going to let all three continue for now. Wow. I wonder if they I mean, will they benefit each other? Will there be shared technology, you know Good question Share things until the three pieces of software start to mimic each other Or will it be like ways and google maps where they just sort of let them go their own way? We'll see. Oh, it's funny. You brought that up because maybe there's a transition there after this Yeah Folks if you want to get all the tech headlines each day in about five minutes subscribe to daily tech headlines.com It's a podcast. It's an amazon echo flash briefing and good news uk users Tinvec is on the case We got an answer out of amazon finally and I think we figured out how to get this thing in the uk amazon Echo store I was under the misimpression previously that Setting it for global distribution meant everybody could get it but apparently you have to resubmit it to each country store Anyway, long story short Hopefully coming to the uk amazon echoes soon and available on the anchor app at anchor dot fm and that Is our top stories Now you may wonder like tom tom tom. What about that google the big google news i'm seeing it everywhere Well, google has added its feed of personalized information cards to the home screen of its android And ios apps it was there for android users since december But it's even been tweaked a little for those users as well A lot of what used to be called google now is there. So you have cards But the cards that are about your appointments and stuff those are now in a separate tab The main tab is very news based. It gives feedback Or i'm sorry It gives you news that it thinks you're interested in based on what it knows about you So if you use search use calendar use gmail all that stuff You can adjust what is shown So you can tap on a card or visit the settings to unfollow a topic or a publisher Or you can even just say i'm not interested in this and it'll stop It'll stop doing it search results will include follow buttons when you're using these apps For some types of results not all results, but they showed stranger things with a follow button to say Hey, i like stranger things i did a search for it. I want that to show up in my feed And news results will offer alternative sources in fact checking from time to time as well So this is basically google now with news And google now updates move to the tab called updates And there's talk that this might actually end up on the google home page right now if you go to google.com You get the logo and the search box as you always have and you get a few stories along the bottom Those aren't necessarily customized the way these will be customized. This would be an entire feed Basically a news feed Yeah, they I mean, I don't want to go too far out on a limb here, but I think it's like Weirdly the yahooization of google and I brought that up this morning and you immediately made a really good point The blank google page Doesn't get used very much. I mean i'd not using it I use the search or the the actual address window to do most of my searches on a browser When it comes to mobile same thing I'm using the you know the search either in safari or chrome or wherever I'm at I'm just going straight in there. That's the standard now So how many people are actually ending up on this page that has the multicolored google name a single Uh space to put in your question or your search and a little microphone off to the right It doesn't I don't think people are going there anymore. It's like wasted real estate That's the that's the big gamble right google saying okay tom We're going to tell you it's 75 degrees in la we're going to give you the game of thrones news We know you like game of thrones Uh netflix releases the punisher teaser. Okay. I'm interested in that cardinals scores with the mats. Here's the standings Here's some washington post news euro gamer news quartz news. I mean twin peaks news It's not bad But am I going to open this thing up and go there on purpose even when it's on the web Am I going to go to the home page on purpose to look at this? That's what google's gambling on Is that i'll find this so useful? I want to check in with it everyone's normal well So let's go back to the original point if people aren't already going to google.com as their home page If they don't have that set in their browser as the default and I don't even think chrome comes that way I think chrome's default is just A version of that but with your most recent open pages below it I think that's how well i can tell you right now like do a tab. Yeah, so you've got a google search window And it looks like eight eight small versions of things i've been too recently So I have trending stories from pocket on mine. Oh, so well that's an extension So that's the other thing is maybe it gets weird and extensions change that and everything else And that's a whole another whole another bag of tricks for these guys But it it doesn't feel like it's going to drive more people to google.com the domain I already go to google news all the time. I'm already getting this from a thousand other sources I think if i'm an android user, I probably really appreciate this because this is a destination for where I am And if i'm using the the the app on ios, well, then you'll probably benefit here as well But I think on desktop I'm not going there every day even if I knew it was good and it was great I don't think I'd remember I just have too many other ways I get around now I go to google news for that Right and I know it's not customized for me, but I kind of don't want it to be Yeah And I think I think there's something to the fact that the people who like to use facebook for this or twitter Like it because they are Seeing other people tell them interesting things, right? I can either go to google news or tech meme Or or just my favorite news outlet, you know the wall street journal or weekly standard or something and get the news I want I use I'm when I say I I'm not talking about myself here people use facebook and twitter to say What what are other people interested in let me see what else is out there I get what google's doing and like you say this is very yahoo yahoo used to do exactly this It's possible that we don't want that that we don't want to customize election as and there are people in the chat room saying I use this every day So I'm not saying nobody wants it and definitely just now when I looked at mine. I'm like that's pretty useful actually It's got it's got the things I'm interested in but maybe not all the things I'm interested in to me It's like what I've done to netflix. I virtually ruined it And I know I can fix that with accounts and stuff, but I'm too lazy right now to do it But uh netflix has destroyed my queue It's just it's made it seem that all I want is clowns from outer space and terrible horror movies And that is in the case the things I watch for fun and they aren't part of that show or you need to set up a film Zach profile I totally do. Yeah, the problem is the damage is done. I needed to really set up a scott johnson profile Yeah, exactly. I need to call that one the film Zach file. Yeah I'll do the other one But like this news it's serving up to me today. I think it thinks I'm really interested in things like this one family tossed from jet blue flight after toddler kicks a seat Something about r kelly and a Madonna story I mean anybody listens to tms is nodding right now going. Yep. That sounds like that sounds like the right stuff So I know that I'm kind of special case in this scenario And I don't want that to color my opinion and it may well be doing that but uh It just seems like and I'm gonna mainly frankly talk about desktop if it's on my phone Sure It's a matter of just flipping around and cool whatever I see something I like and I go It's very casual very simple that desktop option though is going to take work and I just don't think I'm interested So what's funny is it's really no extra work on it's actually more work on mobile Because you have to find the app and launch it whereas you're probably already in the browser and you can just quick You know control t open tab and you're there but Yeah, uh, it's not something I'm going to remember to do like let me check my google feed I mean famous last words right and five years We may all be like talking about our google feeds every day and and what we saw on them But what I really miss or what I wish they would do google reader Was awesome for a reason and the reason it was awesome is I could go find my favorite reddit page I could then go find my favorite IGN articles or the RSS feed for my favorite tech blog or whatever and I could integrate this stuff all in a way I wanted to get And then they could still pepper that with well, here's what we think you want But also here's all the things you said that's what they're doing here They're saying here's what we think you want you can remove things But you can't and you can follow things sometimes by topic You can't add a particular publisher yet. That's not like it. Yeah, and that's frustrating So I don't know I think good luck to him It does feel like it's sort of anti the old simplicity of google a page with a search and a logo I always kind of like that admired that it's like we don't need all that extra stuff We have what you need here because you're going to search and find it This feels like that's not that anymore and that's okay. We've come we've come a long way since that was important So overall i'm fine with it, but I I just wonder how much use it's just going to get and yeah You don't even have to tell us that's the thing about google they've working on 4 000 things at a time iterate change tweak At the whim of whatever and it's because that's not their business model Their business model is made in other places so they can be experimental and in some ways I love that I'd love the apps that I use the most from google But they have got a lot of clutter in there man a lot of stuff No one's using any more apps that have been deprecated for years like That that's the only concern I have is that are they really committed to this and if they are What does that mean? Does it make them any money? Does it not do they care? Like there's always that hovering around google stuff like this. Yeah, whenever you're like Well, I'm going to make this my new thing Uh that that's in the back of your mind. I I think it's a great implementation I think it's better than google now, which was good I just I wonder I'm not saying it won't but I wonder if it will get pick up if people will use it So you're out there saying I already use it or I'm definitely using it then I'm wondering how many of you there are that's all there may be a lot. I don't know Hey, thanks everybody participates in our subreddit you can get over there and submit stories and vote on on the daily tech news Show dot reddit dot com you can also participate in our facebook page facebook.com slash daily tech news show or facebook.com slash groups slash daily tech news show Get to some emails here someone who wished to remain anonymous not Ebenezer Scrooge Claimed they worked with glass In an enterprise setting and wrote in to say they think the wired article Oversold the new version of glass the person cites the following companies need to find a partner for software to make it usable in their setting And google gives it with an operating system, but not the software you need to make it work in your warehouse or factory or whatever Prison display size is still tiny and according to this person you need to refocus on it Which disconnects you from anyone you are interacting with Called battery power laughable in this email complained of normal wi-fi connectivity issues And said voice command reminded them of original seri in conclusion So it really all comes down to how much time effort and money a company is willing to spend on this and it must be an application That makes sense for the limiting factors i mentioned above I don't want people to think this new version is some grand turnkey redesign that organizations will be grabbing off the shelf And using right away. So this person does not like using glass in the workplace very much I'm curious if there's anybody else out there who's been using glass in enterprise I've been a big defender of the fact that hey glass didn't die It just found a home on the factory floor and this person's saying well It sort of did but I don't know how how useful it really is I uh Have only one question about it and I made an assumption that was probably an improper one I when I was reading about getting all this in my head yesterday I assume The glass 2.0 for lack of a better way of saying it Would address most of the what he's got on his list So for example, it doesn't really address the companies need to find a partner with software But one would assume things have gotten more robust. So, you know, perhaps it's easier to get there But the display size the disconnects the battery power stuff Wi-Fi connectivity and voice command My assumption is all that stuff needs to be and has to be better for them to do this initiative at all So if they're not doing that if it's just going to be straight up the old glass you were using And it's very prototypical $1,500 form Then yeah, I share his concerns, but is it wrong for me to assume google has addressed all those things because I don't see How they move forward if they don't Yeah, and that's why I'm curious. This is one person One person's opinion, and I'm not saying they're wrong. I'm not saying they're right I'm just curious if there's anybody else out there who has been using glass Victor also wrote in good to hear from victor said I don't know if this is dts worthy But last night I got an update to my samsung s8 with bixby I played around with it for about an hour updating apps Which is required for all apps that bixby can interact with training the voice recognition Which isn't bad overall and trying to get it to do things here are my first impressions and same goes as with the last email This is one person's impressions victor says the fact that I can only launch apps that it can interact with is annoying I don't use samsung's calendar email, etc. So I can't even open the calendar app I use for instance voice recognition isn't bad not on par with google or amazon voice services But acceptable they're trying to get people to use it by providing experience points towards levels And even samsung points which it seems can be converted to money or prizes And early access to new features like beta testing access. So that's good I suppose funny thing when I asked it to do one thing it responded with I couldn't understand that But it pronounced couldn't as couldn't tea Which made me a laugh made me laugh So it still has a little way to go There also doesn't seem to be a way to tell samsung about these issues so they could fix them if you care I will continue to write about my experiences. Well, thank you victor and Same with this if anybody else is using bixby and has had a different experience from victor Let us know as well feedback at daily tech news show com I agree by the way I think it's impossible to release a new voice assistant on the market without having all kinds of trouble for at least the first six months Yeah, my my opinion after experience with all these devices doing that They kind of suck at first and it's okay It's okay And then finally we'll have the full email from bruce in our show notes But bruce wrote in in response to the fireman talking about the knocks box Yesterday the knocks box being a box that has keys to your place and only firemen are supposed to be able to get the key Some years ago His office building was broken into and the thieves made off with all of the racked hardware in their server room Including their exchange server dev and qa resources and network storage The way they got in was breaking open the knocks box somehow They're not easy to break into but these guys figured it out He says I know other versions of the knocks box have compensating tech including alarms But our landlord hadn't kept up with the improvements much like happens and software Yeah, I don't trust those things physical box to get my keys in nope Well, thank you everybody for writing in and sharing your experiences with us It helps make the show better and as I always say we have the smartest Awesomest Audience in all of podcasting so it's great to hear from you and thank you scott johnson for joining us as always Thank you I would the nice thing about what you just said is that I often sometimes get to share some of those same people so I get the Backdraft effect of of your awesome listeners sometimes meander over to my weird mom and pop show and it's great So big thanks to all those who do that. I love that. We kind of have some shared space With our audiences and thanks for having me on if you guys want to find more of me all the time You can find me at on twitter at scott johnson some new projects coming up that will show up at frogpants.com as well So keep your eyes peeled Thanks everybody who supports this show. We are only supported by our listeners not by advertisers It's an ad it's a value for value model instead of us Hoping that you spend money with someone else who will keep most of the money and throw a few cents our way We just say hey, you spend less money We'll keep more of it and everybody wins So if that sounds good to you and you want to support the show There's some perks that go along with it too like early access to stuff or or special pre and post show things It's all at patreon.com Slash d t n s thank to nick dryfus ron yankowski matt shaney and everybody who supports us over there Our email address is feedback at dailytechnewshow.com. We're live monday through friday for 30 p.m. Eastern 2030 use tc at alphankeekradio.com and diamondclub.tv Or at facebook.com slash dailytechnewshow and our website is dailytechnewshow.com back tomorrow with mr. Justin robber young talk to you then This show is part of the frog pants network Get more at frogpants.com Club hopes you have enjoyed this bro Oh my gosh, you nailed The half hour mark. I know Right on the dot, dude It's the radio in him Yeah, you got me thinking all radio like earlier like oh the time's coming. I gotta hit the post That was a show 30 minutes 37 seconds total Sure, that's all right. You'd run a shorter ps a about the local puppy shelter. It'll be fine. Yeah That's funny that you know, I noticed that too Right on I mean as while you were reading that tail end I watched the clock turn over and I got all excited I never hit anything on time. So that was cool That's so funny All right, roger. What are you up titles? Fight the brand that feeds Feed me see more nintendo apostrophe o Google feeds us info nintendo switches update Tears oh tears for feeders Ha ha get it i er Yes Tears for fears. I like that. No Uh, what's what's up china question mark? A vast cleaner oh wait Oh, this one's good from dr. Deemer vast has a piriform victory. Yeah, I like that one Like pyrrhic Feed us google the yahoozation the yahoozation of google right I'm sure that slash is supposed to be in there on purpose. Yeah, I might be in the typo feed us go Oh, you said feed us google never mind Feed me I'll stop that right now Tears for fears feed me see i like tears for fears tears for fears is really good. That's pretty good I think that's a pretty funny ingenious one Ignis one it's an igneous. I used to think it igneous rock was an ingenious rock.  I'm gonna let him out. Yeah Because he doesn't do anything except what are the tears that we're referring to in this title though Yeah, what's with the facebook? Yeah, so I need to add that to the snot Are you gonna get the little mini snes when it comes out? Uh, yeah, probably if I get my hands on it. I think that thing looks great and I love the Well, but the thing I was most impressed with or one of the things that I'm impressed with at the NES one was the controllers are Exactly like the originals. I have an original and I put them next to each other and the way they feel push The release on the buttons all of it is like identical So I love snes controllers and I really want those controllers. That seems like a weird thing But I totally want them So, yeah, who my kid and I totally want Are you gonna Um, yeah, I mean well I know we can get the job But can he do the job? You know if I can get if someone has stock on the damn thing Somewhere somebody and then we got my NES with some fan got an extra one and gave it to me So I or sold it to me. So that was good So maybe that'll happen again. I don't know I got to play with the NES because my brother-in-law Went to all the trouble to buy one and then brought it to our house Great They came to all the work. Yeah So John Do it again went through all the trouble didn't you just order it online like everyone else? You didn't try did you? Yeah, you couldn't just order it. You had to work at it. Yeah, and I didn't know how to get it either I have to admit I was kind of wimpy about it I was kind of like well if I do I do if I don't I don't they'll probably make you forever and then that changed no Just wait give it a couple of months and then I'm sure the chinese factory that cranked them out We'll make them out again under a different name. Yeah I was about to disagree with you like no nintendo is not and then I'm like, oh under a different name. Yeah They call it the oes system Oriental entertainment system the oriental entertainment system They just have to change one letter. That's it terrible idea Uh No nintendo you've never seen the poly station. Oh no, I've seen that stuff the poly station. I was great It'll be the nintendo any ss Yeah Yeah But see okay, the whole point of buying this thing is not to play the games you can play the games in an emulator right now The point of it is to have the little miniature version of it and get the whole nostalgia burst So if you're getting one that says nintendo nests does that still have the same nostalgia punch I don't know like See this is the thing knockoffs used to be kind of sneered at as something you would get because you were too poor to get The actual thing but there is a market for those dark knockoffs. Believe it or not like oh, yeah Yeah, I think in the 70s and 60s that was the case roger, but yeah, I think in the past I wasn't around then tom so No, I mean, I think that's been true for a long time that people like knockoffs are funny. Let's get the knockoff Yeah, but I think um, yeah people collect them because because what it's interesting because it's sort of the cottage industry around the main product in the same way that You have so many Apple related products. You just have all these other products. I bought a knockoff tog watch in new york city once uh Because I just thought it was funny and it was like 15 dollars, right? It was called tap. It was You know, I think this one just didn't have the name on it It was all other ways identical, but it just they just didn't put a name on it if I remember right anyway I wore that thing for a year and a half for 15 bucks. It was a pretty decent one That's right. It's uh, yeah Took me forever to stop looking at my wrist when I stopped wearing watches I could be oh, I don't have a watch Now I just look at my phone You want to wear a watch scut? Uh, I do it's a well, it's a fit bit charge to Oh But it's basically a fit bit charge First thing it does when I lift it up to my face.  So I went to Uh amazon or yeah amazon and found this 10 metal Magnetic clasp one stainless steel one for 10 bucks and it's awesome Fits perfectly locked right in no issues. I can get it wet It's great feed it after midnight Yeah, don't do that though because then becomes mug why or no mug why became a gremlin. That's how yeah No, the mug why no his name was gizmo But the creature is the mug why why? He was gizmo the mug why and if you got them wet They would be gremlins But you came with a free frogert or I might be confusing a simpsons episode with it No, because the frogert was also haunted Homer said that was bad, but it comes with your choice of free topping. That's good, but the toppings are also haunted Yeah, I think he said cursed the hot the toppings are cursed That's a classic So you know so many classic ones at the beginning And there's so many other ones that they kind of recycled throughout this the series I i'm waiting for the trend to come back of quoting the simpsons Like current episodes it because it seems to go in cycles It does I think they've been killing it lately I mean, I don't know how much of it was quotable but the writing I haven't seen any of the recent ones in the past two years They've been good And I but I haven't heard anybody talking about them No, I mean, I don't know It's such an anomaly the fact that it's even anything still Is so weird Been talking about this a lot lately. I wonder why The simpsons Yeah Because we all grew up with it and we all were alive and remember when it started But there's so many other things that fit that definition. Why why the symptoms Why the symptoms of talking about the simpsons because it's it's it's impacted. It's weird because it's an odd Yet It's an oddly comical yet. Also extremely relevant reflection of american family life I mean It was it was that was true of it a year ago and we weren't talking about it all the time You know what i'm saying? I'm like, why has it come up recently so much? I don't know Maybe we're coming back around like you said You know these things come in cycles and maybe we've always talked about it, but just never on the stream Hmm I think of all the I'm trying to think like do I talk about it outside and maybe I do I mean we use catchphrases, right? We say meh remember before lisa said meh When did people say like you go, huh? Right and then she had they added the m each And what's the other one that? David spade used in the award show.  Oh, I'm so I am so smart smrt. I mean smart Good one. Uh, yeah And you know what it's such a rich vein of syndicated syndicatable material That anyone would pay for because it's a known quantity of people watching it Right. You can now I was thinking the other day. Why do we not have all 26 seasons or whatever it is now on some service? And I realized it's probably because you're talking about literally 26 seasons of 24 episode seasons Like they are they're all on fx. Are they on fx? Yeah But I wonder if anyone's done like the streaming encoding work that has to be done to get it ready for something like, you know Probably no, I mean you can go to the fx app if you subscribe to a service that lets you log in and watch all the subsets Oh Well, they should put it on hulu like they do Futurama. They just moved that way you don't have to pay for another service Yeah, and bob's burgers and stuff they put all that over there. Let's do it Bob's burgers, but yeah, but those are huh. Hmm. Yeah, burgers is a national treasure You're a national treasure Well get a room you too That is the least offensive, uh, uh, thing anyone's ever said to me. Your mom's a national treasure Doesn't have quite the same steam. I really don't it doesn't does it? That's not what she referred to me last night. Whoa Zing bam zing by the big All right, I love this check it out. I am uh, I am in my podcast app right now. Yeah, and Oh my gosh Daily tech news show is just downloaded This episode. Yep. Oh my gosh. That was quick Support How do you hear podcast this way? I can't fathom it. It's crazy to me Well, I don't know what you mean scott. I you know what I mean. I you know what I think it is. I think it's just I don't know how fast does that sped up like 30% two and a quarter? He's like He's like data looking at screens trying to get all the info about the crystalline entity before the card That's crazy it does cause issues sometimes when I hear you talking real life Well, I am I apologize for the how slow I am normally You know, you know who are really uh, I because I do this every week with you When I do Let's talk about star wars with garret after hearing him at two and a quarter speed on on angry chicken I'm just like Man, why is carrot talking so slow and then I have to remind myself. Oh, right. He he's talking at normal speed I think that's so funny.  That's why I do it Yeah, I don't think you should go changing. You should do what works for you Don't go singing All right, folks. Well, thank you all for hanging out with us You are our bestest friends.  I'm all right, but uh, Nicholas cage told me once


good morning everybody we're locked and loaded just got to get some of the snow off of here and then we'll hit the road it is uh both 6 30 am right now got in here first thing in the morning showed up to the very nice driver over there he uh i was parked right here right and my light's off because i was waiting for 6 am to go in they told me i should only go in at 6 am apparently i can go in at 5 well he came in he blew past me and cut in front of me in the line got ready get loaded and i got on the radio and i'm like hey hey hey wait a second hey hey excuse me you cut the line bud and i wasn't expecting a response right it's usually out here drivers will just sort of ignore you and you know cut in line and get loaded and be gone they'll never see you again right this guy was super nice he responded he apologized i'm so sorry man i i misunderstood why you were parked there i wasn't trying to cut in front of you he let me back in front of him he he came out of there went around and let me go in front of him get loaded first and now i'm loaded ready to go because i've been waiting here 15 hours and he just got here so very nice to see that there is some courtesy and some respectful drivers out there still was on a mistake and he corrected it and uh took his place in the line so i was encouraging it was really nice put me in a good mood first thing this morning telling if there's still drivers out there who care so start to vlog off on a good note i'm gonna get some of the snow off of here first because they loaded a little bit of snow in here i don't want that flying into traffic and got my tarps back here i've sent in my paperwork already everything is tight tight tight tight tight tight tight tight tight tight tight tight tight and tight and now for the obligatory that ain't going nowhere except with me let's go good morning to you too karen feel a kind of chipper today are you so i don't know if i'm going home tonight or if there's going to be another load for me i'm going to be begging for uh for freight all the way back today i want to keep working but seeing as it's new year's holidays and it's a long weekend there may not be anywhere for me to pick up or to deliver everything's going to be closed so we'll see what happens i'm probably going to be going home tonight i'm going to say through all my years experience i'm pretty certain i'm going to be going home but i'm hoping i can leave this weekend to deliver somewhere right after new year's now we'll see what they got for me i will use my trucker drosh persuasion voice and ask them pretty pretty please a nickel for me please could you spare a nickel i just opened his door right into traffic right in front of me you see that it's a beautiful day to be trucking in minnesota look at this it's almost like a christmas highway still stuck on christmas i'm not letting it go yet i'm not in where you are my voice can be a little quieter i'm further away from the mic all i use for a microphone usually is the microphone built right into the gopro i'm using my gopro hero eight at the moment i have a gopro hero 10 as well which has similar quality microphone so i sort of have to shout and sometimes i forget to shout and then in the editing it's hard to adjust the volume so i got a couple of comments on yesterday's video about that my apologies i i tried to level out the audio but i am aware of it and uh keep an extra close ear on it sometimes if i boost the audio so you can hear my voice it also boosts the audio of the truck sound and my truck's a little loud and then sometimes that can be overbearing we'll get it we'll get it you know i'm not a professional videographer or anything i'm not a hollywood producer i'm just a truck driver just doing what he does out here trying to share my life with you highway two it's going to take us all the way to grand forks north dakota from there we're going to take interstate 29 north into manitoba rolled through grand forks north dakota going to do today what i said that i uh don't usually do i've had a lot of time to fuel prices are in the u.s compared to canada fuel prices spiked around the world canada went along with everybody else now the united states has dropped back down to an all-right level it could still go down a lot further if you ask me but it's gone down quite a bit our gas our fuel prices for diesel in manitoba have stayed the same haven't budged they're still sitting at two dollars and six cents per liter i'm gonna stop at loves just south of the canadian border in the u.s on i-29 fuel prices at loves are four dollars 35 cents us per us gallon translation to canadian money that's five dollars and 89 cents per us gallon translate the us gallons into liters that's a dollar 56 canadian per liter a whole 50 cents cheaper than just 30 miles up the road in canada 50 cents per liter i'm running at about a quarter tank right now i'm going to probably put in about 600 liters today that's a savings of over 330 dollars over 300 dollars right now so forgive me if my math isn't perfect math is accurate because i stopped and checked that out before it's a dollar 56 per liter here 30 miles up the up the road across the border at flying j it's two dollars and six cents why why has canadian diesel prices not dropped along with us diesel prices we're right here same region so i'm going to save myself over 300 dollars yes i'm putting in us fuel into my tanks which means i'm probably going to have to consider adding in some anti-gel additive at least consider it but even that that's a 20 dollar jug i'm still saving 280 dollars plus close to 300 dollars even with the power service anti-gel in my tanks like that's huge difference that's where i'm headed to now so you know i've always said i don't fuel in the us in the winter time well you know the weather's going to be mild the next few days for the next week if i have to i can still add that power service anti-gel and it'll keep my fuel from gelling i just thought that that was an extra added unnecessary expense right why would i buy additives when i can just go up and up to canada and buy the diesel fuel that doesn't gel why would i spend that extra 20 bucks a tank great or a fill up this is actually a brand new truck stop here came up in the last couple of years it's probably taking quite a bit of business away from the flying jay and grand forks five cents us per gallon here five dollars what did i say before five dollars 68 cents canadian per gallon dollar 56 per liter can't argue with that it's still too expensive but i'll take it i've actually never been to this loves i don't think i don't think i've actually been here interesting i thought mcdonald's was usually associated with loves i guess it's different for every location number one over here or the first one let's save 300 dollars right here how about that i'm gonna keep that money okay so we filled for 166 us gallons that equals 628.378 liters i was pretty much bang on i thought about 600 liters i know my truck 628 liters so the price was four dollars and 34 34.349 i'm just gonna round it up four dollars 35 cents us per gallon that equaled out to a dollar 56 per liter canadian cost me 721 93 us dollars or 977 76 canadian dollars it's the first fill up that i've had under a thousand dollars in quite some time now remember just down the road they're paying two dollars five five cents point nine so two dollars and six cents per liter subtract a dollar 56 exactly 50 cents more per liter 30 miles that way so you times that by the amount of liters we bought and just by fueling up here today instead of just over there i saved myself 314 dollars and 19 cents canadian isn't that crazy how big of a gap that is like i know fuel in canada is always more expensive than in the us that's a given but i've never seen the gap this wide this is wild 314 dollars i kept in my pocket just now one fill up i burnt that in two days and i didn't even it wasn't even two full days like i burned that in pretty much a little over a day usually like almost every day so almost 300 dollars every day i could be saving you get it right i still don't get it i still can't get that in my head that gap is huge why aren't our fuel prices going down right i know they're going to be more expensive than the us regardless but 50 cents a liter more in canada okay i'm done i'm done otherwise i'm going to get too many comments you're complaining again trigger josh all you do is complain i know i know i know i complain i'm right here i hear it too i'm gonna move up here and quickly run inside uh then we'll be off to the races so i told you yesterday right i got to replace that uh my taillights and license plate holder on the back of my truck it started to crack and break off from my frame right but i got a strapped on there and put on there right now so it's not going anywhere it's still on there but it will need to be replaced very soon right the piece that i want is a big square chrome piece with a whole bunch of lights on it and i'm gonna go pick it up when i'm at home next it's about 400 dollars i believe so just this one fuel up deciding to fuel up in the us instead of in canada almost paid for that whole thing i will be eyeing this us fuel a whole lot more in the future even in the cold of winter i'll find a way to make it work i'm just gonna have to be very careful about uh fuel additives and anti-gel to make sure it doesn't gel up on me but i don't know we can make it work for 300 savings every day we can make it work we will find a way money is a great motivator we're here at our yard and we've moved my freight off of my trailer onto that super b over there and they're going to continue on with it from here he is i think two of our loads onto the super b they can carry a lot more weight than these trailers uh here's a rush this rush the guy was waiting here for me already when i got here oh we got it i got it unloaded he's got his stuff he's got his paperwork i've got mine signed all set finished now we're on to our next assignment already i'm taking the same trailer back down to thief river falls gonna sleep there tonight and then tomorrow we're trading it off for a loaded trailer and i'm gonna bring that one back here and we might go back for another one yet and do two of those loads tomorrow that should keep me busy all day that's good going i have just barely enough time on my clock to get back to thief river falls still seems like it's so much later than it is right it's only 20 after five in the afternoon the lights are still purple just pointing it out anyone keeping track of how long we've been waiting for those to be replaced oh and it's busy everyone's going home from work and i'm going to work or i'm still working with high beams on sitting on trucker josh's nerves drive down the highway with your high beams on or no lights at all well there you go now we got them we made it to thief river falls with 31 minutes left on my 14 hour clock so i dipped back into canada dropped off that load it got reloaded onto that super b like you saw there that one took off to wherever it was going i didn't even look i knew where i had to bring it and that's all i cared about i brought it there job done job complete but uh i kept the same step deck it's empty and i brought it back down here to thief river falls and tomorrow morning around the corner here i have a trailer that's waiting for me it's already preloaded so i just got to tie it down and uh bring it back up to canadia with me so thanks for hanging out with me today guys thanks for watching we uh got a full day out of it drove about 991 kilometers or about 600 miles or so it was a full day felt good tomorrow i think we're gonna do two of these that's why i came down here to thief river tonight already because i had the hours to do so i'm getting a little bit of a head start on tomorrow i think i'm doing two loads of the thief river back to our yard because that's a really full day if you uh that's a that's a decently full day if you start at our yard but me i'm getting a head start i'm starting in thief river so i'll grab the load bring it back to the yard bring the empty trailer back down here switch for another loaded trailer bring it back i think that's the plan so i should get back at a decent time tomorrow night and i made myself available through the weekend i will see if they have anything for me i did throw a not so subtle hint just threw it in there to the lord god saying hey i need to keep busy for the next two and a half months um whatever you got for me and uh i haven't seen any palm trees in a while i hope they got my message i was trying to be subtle but it came out more like he sent me to the palm trees to the land of palm trees just once i mean at least maybe a little new year's treat in january get me away from the cold a little bit i do have to stay close to home because my wife is in her third trimester well almost in her third trimester and uh once the baby's born i'm gonna have to i keep doing what i'm doing now i'm very happy in the position i'm in now what i'm doing now with all this stuff so things are going good but every now and then i wouldn't mind seeing some palm trees just saying i haven't hugged a palm tree in years and that's a problem it's a palm tree problem so we'll see doesn't mean they're gonna send me down there uh they got drivers that are already dedicated to that right they they're the ones that go down there all the time i would just like to snag one of those loads for myself let me check out the great state of florida or arizona i'd even go to utah i mean if you go to st george utah there's some palm trees there right that's kind of deserty nevada and yeah is anyone out there not california though no not california god bless you guys living in california there i couldn't do it but hey somehow you're managing to do it and uh my truck doesn't go to california uh it's too old so palm trees we go right up to the border maybe los vegas phoenix new mexico haven't been there in very very long time if he sent me to georgia though it's got to be like south george like savannah george or something otherwise there's not going to be palm trees and i want palm trees i will see what happens beggars can't be choosers right and i'm just begging for anything they can throw at me if i don't get to see palm trees i don't get to see palm trees that's okay it's more important for me to be uh be around for the important uh stuff that's coming there's a baby have you noticed have i mentioned it 10 times today yet there's a baby coming all right that's enough chatting for today uh i'll see you in tomorrow's vlog if you haven't already still according to my analytics 41 percent of you that aren't that that are watching my video right now 41 percent of you are not subscribed so i challenge you now all 41 percent of you if you haven't subscribed yet and you're watching my channel go hit that subscribe button it's free it's super easy it helps me out a lot and i'd love you forever i promise i'll see you tomorrow i'll see you here as a new subscriber right huh see now i put the pressure on you now now you're gonna feel bad if you don't right is it working


Okay, so our next talk is like Cat Joyce since who watches the watches in WebPKI? Hi! Yeah, I'm Cat. It's great to be here. Today I'm mostly going to be talking to you about something called certificate transparency. So, yeah, before we get on to what certificate transparency itself is, I want to sort of start off by talking a little bit about, oh, wait, how do I get it to change? Hold on a second. There we go. I want to start off by talking a little bit about the problem that certificate transparency was sort of intended to help with when it was sort of dreamt up. So I want to start with an example, and this is where I have to put my hands up and say, I do work at Google. The example is a Google example. It was the only way I could get my slides approved. Please bear with it. So we're going to start off. Say you are a Gmail user and you want to log into your email. What are you going to do? You're going to go to mail.google.com, hit enter, and type in your login details, and a web page is going to appear that probably looks something a little bit like this. Now, the more observant of you will notice that up in the top left-hand corner, the beginning of the URL has gone green, and there's this very reassuring little padlock symbol and the word secure. And what this means is that you have connected to the Google's web servers securely, so everything is encrypted. And so that anyone listening in on the connection can't tell what's being said. Okay, great. So you've got this secure connection. Yay. But what happens, you know, how do you know that it's actually Google you're talking to on the other end of this connection? How do you know it's not someone just pretending to be Google? How can you be sure that when you type in your login details, you're not actually sending them to an impersonator? Well, this is where we start talking about certificates. A certificate is a thing that a web browser sends to a web client, sorry, that a web server sends to a web client to prove that they are who they say they are. And a certificate contains two things. It contains a public key and it contains a domain name or a web address. And what a certificate means is that if you use this public key to set up a secure connection, you can be sure that you're talking to the real version of this web address. Now, for a certificate to be accepted by a browser, the certificate has to be signed by one of these trusted entities that we call Certificate Authorities or CAs.  You're going to need a certificate to be able to present to your users when they try to connect.  I've got this website, mail.google.com, and here's my public key. Please, can you issue a certificate to me? The Certificate Authority will take this information, they'll take a look at it, and they'll run a bunch of checks to convince itself that, first of all, this is actually Google it's talking to, and that all of the information provided is both correct and truthful. And if the CA is happy with this information, it'll sign a certificate, issue the certificate, and send it back to Google for them to use. Now, this is the point in, you know, WebPKI where there's trust. We trust Certificate Authorities to get this right. We trust CAs not to issue certificates to the wrong people. Okay, so now, you know, you're on your browser, you're trying to check your email. When you go to mail.google.com, Google will then respond with the certificate. It'll send through the certificate that it's had issued. And your browser will check the certificate and see that it's been signed by a trusted Certificate Authority and set up a secure connection so that you can then check your email. Okay, so that's all fine. That's sort of how the system was intended to work. But then what happens if a bad guy comes along and says, you know, goes to the Certificate Authority and says, hi, I'm Google. I've got this website mail.google.com. Here's my public key. Please, can you issue a certificate for me? Like I said, we trust Certificate Authorities to do the right thing here. We trust CAs not to issue certificates to, you know, to the wrong people. We trust CAs to be able to tell that this isn't actually Google they're speaking to and not to sign anything. But what if, for whatever reason, you know, say maybe the CA is hacked or they make a mistake, say they issue a certificate that they shouldn't? Well then, when you go to connect to mail.google.com, the attacker could respond with their certificate instead. And your browser has no way of telling that this is a fraudulent certificate. You know, it's still signed by a trusted Certificate Authority. So your browser will set up a secure connection. But this time, when you send your login details, you'll actually be sending them to an attacker. Okay, so this sounds bad, right? You know, you might be thinking, okay, this isn't great, but is it something that really happens? Is this really something we have to worry about? Unfortunately it is. There are a number of examples that I could have used here. The one I've chosen is the one that was like one of the real sort of inspiring incidents that sort of set off certificate transparency. So it's one of the sort of more relevant ones to us. Back in 2011, there was a Certificate Authority called DigiNotar. And what happened here was they were hacked. And the attackers managed to issue a wildcard Google.com certificate. And yeah, so what actually happened here was DigiNotar apparently actually detected the breach when it happened, but you know, being hacked is bad for business. So they decided not to tell anyone. They thought they had contained it. And it was actually something like three months later that a user sort of noticed this fraudulent certificate floating around and being used and then reported it back. And then after some investigation, it turned out that the attackers had actually got hold of not just one, but something like a hundred fraudulent certificates for a number of like, you know, big name domains. And yeah, the, well, DigiNotar's no longer a CA. Let's put it that way. So, okay, so we've got, you know, there's clearly a problem here. The problem is this blind trust we have in CAs to just do the right thing and not miss issue certificates. But what this example really shows is the problem is actually more than that. It's if a CA does miss issue a certificate, we have no way of telling that that's happened without them sort of owning up and saying, look, we did this. And there's actually no guarantee that they necessarily know this has happened. So what do we, what can we do about that? Well, this is where I bring up certificate transparency. This is enter certificate transparency. Um, what is certificate transparency? So it's an ecosystem to detect certificate miss issuance. Now I emphasize the word detect because we're not preventing certificate miss issuance. And it turns out that's actually a much harder problem. Um, within certificate transparency, there is this, this core concept, this idea of a certificate transparency log. And what that is is a publicly auditable, append only certificate store. So that means it's just essentially a big repository of certificates that anyone can access. Anyone can add to anyone can go and see what's in there. Um, there are certificate transparency logs already in existence. Um, and they, they current, you know, they can be run by anyone with the technical capacity. They can be run by anyone with the technical capacity to, to sort of keep them up and running. Um, currently they're mostly run by large tech companies and certificate authorities, but really they could be run by anyone who has a sort of a vested interest in the security of the internet. Um, in fact, there was actually a guy, uh, who we met up with. He was super enthusiastic about certificate transparency and, uh, he told us, he was like, yeah, I'm running this CT log. It's called behind the sofa. We were like, what? And, and it was literally running behind the sofa.  How reliable they are. That's a different question. Um, so the goal with, with these logs is to get all of the certificates that are used on the web into certificate transparency logs, so that then if you're a domain owner, you can monitor these logs. You know, I mentioned there, they're publicly auditable, so you can monitor them and keep an eye out for certificates for your domain. And if you see a certificate for your domain that either you didn't ask for or that doesn't contain your public key, you can then take the necessary steps to get it revoked. Okay, so, before we had this system where, uh, you know, CAs were just blindly trusted to, to not to miss issue certificates. Now we have a system where certificate transparency logs will publicly publish all of the, uh, certificates that certificate authorities are issuing. But what if a certificate transparency log lies about what's in it? What if a CT log says it's going to, uh, store and then publish a certificate and actually doesn't? What if a CT log does store and publish a certificate for a short amount of time but then deletes it and stops publishing it? Haven't we just moved the trust from CAs to certificate transparency logs? No. Uh, it actually turns out we can, we can verify that certificate transparency logs are behaving correctly. And the reason we can do that is because of the cryptographic data structure that is used by certificate transparency logs to store, uh, certificates. And that data structure is a Merkle tree. Now, um, the Merkle tree that you can see up on the screen is just one containing seven certificates. So this represents a CT log containing seven certificates, very, very small. Um, and what a Merkle tree is, it's very simple. It's, um, it's just a binary tree where the leaves are the hashes of the things that are containing it, in our case certificates. So if you look at the, uh, at the slide, you know, A is the hash of certificate one, B is the hash of certificate two, C is the hash of certificate three, etc. Um, and the intermediate nodes of the tree are the hash of the concatenation of the two children of that node.  And then K is the hash of G concatenated with H. And that trickles all the way up to the top where you get the root of the tree or what we call the tree head. Now upon request certificate transparency logs are required to publish these, these, these tree heads. And those published tree heads, um, in conjunction with this data structure means that we can actually prove and we can check, like cryptographically check that certificate transparency logs are behaving. So one example that I mentioned of like, you know, dodgy things that a CT log could do was what if a CT log said, you know, accepts the certificate, says, yeah, I'm going to add it, I'm going to publish it, and that actually doesn't. Well, you know, if we, if we take that example, okay, what if we wanted to be able to check, you know, we've submitted certificate three to a certificate transparency log, and we want to be able to check that C3 has actually been included in the log. How could we do that? Well, we know C is just the hash of C3, so we can calculate C. Um, and then if we could calculate H and then calculate K and then calculate the tree head, we could compare the tree head with the tree head that the log is reporting. And if they're the same, we know the log is behaving, it's incorporated our certificate into its tree. Wonderful. But in order to get H, we need D. And in order to calculate K, we need G. And in order to calculate the tree head, we need L. So in order to, to, in order for a CT log to prove that it has included a certificate, all it has to do is provide those three intermediate notes. Um, now as a CT log grows, as more certificates are added to it, that this internal Merkle tree is going to grow as well. And so the tree head, that, you know, the root of the tree is going to, is going to change, the value of it's going to change. And so there's a second proof mechanism that's similar to this one, but a bit more complicated, that I'm not going to go over right now, um, you know, for time, um, that proves that, given two of these tree heads, it proves that they're consistent. And what I mean by consistent is that, uh, the sort of larger of the two tree heads was obtained only by appending, only by adding certificates to the previous tree head. So I mentioned CT logs are meant to be appended only. This is how you can check it, given, given two sort of tree tree heads, uh, with associated tree sizes. And those two proof techniques are actually all you need to be able to check that a certificate transparency log is behaving correctly. Does it work? Yes, it does. Um, we have the certificate transparency ecosystem, the sort of wider ecosystem, has successfully detected, uh, a number of, uh, misbehaving certificate transparency logs, using these, these checking mechanisms. Uh, one of the logs, what happened here was they used the same public key to run both a production and a test log. Now in this, in certificate transparency world, CT logs are identified based on their public key. So by using the same key for two logs, any tree heads issued by either of those logs were considered to be from the, from a single log. So what happened in this case was their production log issued a tree head, their test log issued a tree head for a different set of certificates because it contained a different set of certificates. And then the, and then, you know, when we, when asked, the production log couldn't produce one of these consistency proofs between these two tree heads. And that was when we sort of started figuring out something funny was going on. In the second instance, this log was actually running on, I believe, uh, the, on Amazon, the AWS S3, uh, it was running on S3 when the outage happened towards the beginning of last year. Um, and what happened here was so they issued a tree head and then S3 went down and, you know, in the panic of, oh no, all our data, you know, everything's down, they, um, they restored from an older backup that didn't contain all of the certificates. And then a bunch of new certificates came in and was added to this older version of the tree. And they issued another tree head and those two tree heads were then inconsistent because there were some certificates missing from, from the second one that were in the first one. Um, now in this case, actually it was, although okay, you know, they messed up it, the tree became inconsistent. Um, we were, it was really, really impressive how the log operators dealt with it. The inconsistent tree head was only actually sort of being reported for something like two minutes and the log operators very, very quickly produced a very detailed post-mortem of everything that had gone wrong. And there was a lot of public discussion on, on, on sort of everything that had happened here. Um, so it was just the way that they dealt with this, this sort of failure was, was absolutely fantastic. Um, and, you know, one of the things with certificate transparency is that we, we sort of pride ourselves on being transparent. So whenever something does go wrong, all of the discussion does happen in public. And because CT is, you know, it's still, it's still quite new, it's still quite young, we're still learning. And so every single one of these war stories, although something did go wrong, we learned something from it and, and, and, and, you know, something good came from it and we learned how not to mess up in the future. So that's, you know, pros and cons. Okay. So, sorry. Um, we, we have, you know, certificate transparency sounds like a great idea, right? I'm biased, but yay. Um, but how do we actually incentivize people to use these logs with, you know, when we've got them spun up? How do we, how do we incentivize people to put certificates into certificate transparency logs? Why would they want to do it other than sort of, like, for the good of the internet? Well, the answer to that is browsers. Um, so as of April 30th, this year, um, Chrome started, back in April, Chrome started requiring that all newly issued certificates have to be present within multiple trusted certificate transparency logs to be accepted. Safari currently requires this for a specific subset of certificates. So Safari requires this for something called extended validation certificates or EV certificates. And EV certificates are basically the ones that make your sort of URL bar look like this. Yeah. Um, but as of October this year, Safari will also require that all newly issued certificates be present in multiple trusted certificate transparency logs to be accepted. So, you know, this is, this is becoming part, certificate transparency has basically become part of the web, web PKI. And, you know, there have been a number of discussions with the other major browser vendors, you know, about supporting certificate transparency too. So, that's great. Now, I've mentioned a couple of times this, okay, on the previous slide we had these, these certificates have to be present in trusted certificate transparency logs. What do we mean by trusted? You know, I said, oh, you don't have to trust them, so what does that mean? And what trusted really means is that certificate transparency logs are, city logs that are behaving correctly. Now, Chrome specifically has a log policy that dictates what its perception of behaving correctly is. And it includes things like conforming to the certificate transparency RFC, maintaining 99% uptime so that, you know, you can access it to actually monitor and check for domains. And, you know, there's a, there's a handful of other things in there, but one particular one is that when a certificate is submitted to a log, it has to be, the log has to incorporate it into its Merkle tree within 24 hours. Now, the point of this requirement is that is to sort of minimize the amount of time that it takes, the amount of time between when a certificate is submitted to a log and when it's then publicly accessible for monitoring. But then at the same time it's trying to balance that with operationally allowing enough time to incorporate the certificate into this property structure. Now, moving 24 hours quite a long time, right? Like how long can it take to actually add a certificate to a Merkle tree? That doesn't sound that hard. But in reality what this 24 hours is, is the amount of time a log operator has to recover or to handle things when something goes wrong with the log. And, you know, we saw from the Amazon S3 outage in that war story that with certificate transparency logs recovering from failure isn't as simple as restoring from a backup. Usually there's some sort of like manual intervention needed. And trust me, if the thing that goes wrong is at 3 a.m. on a Sunday, your log monitoring your log maintaining team are going to be really thankful they have 24 hours to handle it. That being said 24 hours is not long enough for all logs. So one log did actually manage to incorporate a certificate into its tree within 24 hours. But it was actually having problems with the external APIs. Although it was technically in the tree within 24 hours the certificate wasn't publicly accessible until 36 hours after being submitted. So that was technically counted as going against the behavior of the log policy. Another log, which was actually one of our logs, simply failed to incorporate certificates within 24 hours. Turns out it's not that long after all. What happened in this instance was a specific person who we are good friends with now from the University of Michigan came across so they had been accumulating a large corpus of certificates themselves and they realized a large number of them, like talking about 6 million of them, weren't present in any certificate transparency and they thought, oh these guys their goal is to get all of the certificates used on the web into these logs. Let's help them out. Let's help them achieve their goal by submitting these to our logs and they submitted all 6 million of them at once. Pretty safe to say this was the largest load test we have had to date. So what this resulted in was this huge backlog of certificates to be sequenced and then stored. And because of the level of consistency required when storing certificates in certificate transparency logs 24 hours later this was still chugging along some of the certificates hadn't been incorporated so that was the end of that. But most logs don't have a problem with this 24 hour limit and are still very happily pottering along. The big question does certificate transparency actually work? Well I like to think that I wouldn't go around doing talks like this about it if we built the system and it was kind of failing at life so yes it does. Proof that it works. So we run a monitor for all of the certificate transparency logs that are out there for Google-owned domains and we discovered that a specific certificate authority had issued a certificate for www.google.com that we hadn't asked for. Now we went and spoke to this CA and it turns out they would like one of their test engineers needed a certificate for testing and they were like oh I need a domain for my certificate, what shall I use? Oh I know www.google.com No, bad! Do not issue certificates for domains you don't own, just like not okay. And so you know while it was a testing certificate so it was only actually valid for something like two days so you know the risk was kind of much lower, they did say they were like oh yeah no it's okay, it's okay it never left our test environment. We found this in the Google certificate transparency log and we were like yes it did, yes it did, you're wrong. Anyway, they are no longer a CA. Another example of the benefit of certificate transparency is something from that was in a Facebook blog post so Facebook also run a CT monitor for Facebook owned domains I assume and this while this wasn't a malicious thing they the benefit they got was one of their internal teams had used a CA to issue certificates that wasn't one of their like accepted CA vendors and so this CT helped them detect that and get the certificates revoked and reissued by a by an accepted CA so we got a thumbs up from them which is always nice the blog post if you want to know more okay so before I can tell you sort of what the current state and what sort of like in the near future for CT I need to start out by just saying how things started going back in the beginning in the beginning we wanted to you know we had this idea for CT and we wanted to show that it was possible to run reliable certificate transparency logs because we wanted to convince everyone to adopt this new idea and so we needed to show to them that it can be done and so the initial implementation of CT logs was designed to be extremely extremely reliable and extremely robust to infrastructure failure and what that resulted in was a design that essentially stored the entire Merkle tree in memory and that was kind of fine you know back when logs were maybe a couple of million certificates but you know recently everyone's switching to HTTPS which is great and you know there's this sort of rising popularity of much shorter live certificates which is also great but that does mean that there are a lot more certificates out there big sort of shout out to Let's Encrypt at this point and yeah so the current largest certificate transparency log is now sitting at about 400 million certificates it's not so feasible to store in memory so what this kind of led to when we saw this coming it wasn't like now ah what are we going to do and so what this led to was me and a bunch of the guys that I work with have developed this thing called Trillion and what Trillion is it's a scalable Merkle tree implementation and we use this scalable Merkle tree implementation to back our certificate transparency logs now the difference with Trillion is that the Merkle tree contents are actually stored from a database instead of being stored from memory Trillion is open source so you can go and check it out if you're interested we've tested it in a bunch of different ways and we've seen that it can sort of take roughly 2000 QPS is sort of heading up towards its top limit so you know potentially up to 2000 certificates being submitted per second that's quite a lot right we've tested it, we tested the size of it obviously size was an issue, 400 million certificates seemed like a lot this has now been tested to for a single log 13 billion certificates so you know that's way in the future Trillion is actually multi-tenanted which means that one Trillion instance can contain multiple Merkle trees so what that's sort of there are a few different benefits with that like the main one being for each new log you want to spin up you don't actually have to go through all of the setup process for that log you can just spin, you can just you know in one Trillion instance you can just provision a new log in there and it's much much simpler and much faster so there's sort of an ease thing with the multi-tenancy we've tested it to the point where it says it on the slide you can read it but we've got 10 tenants and across shared between those 10 tenants there are 42 billion entries or more big numbers that's fun one of the really key things with Trillion is it's not specific to certificates so it's more of a general transparency concept like it's just the Merkle tree implementation you can give it like blobs of whatever and it will store them and this is kind of great because it gives you all those potential all those verifiable properties you know with the two proofs that I mentioned potentially for other applications and Trillion provides both the log mode which is used for certificate transparency and what we call a verifiable map mode now the verifiable map mode is essentially a verifiable key value store the way that is actually from a Merkle tree point of view is this is a Merkle tree with two to the 256 leaves most of which are empty which is how it's sort of doable and if you want to add a key value pair to the Merkle tree you use the key the hash of the key to find which leaf to store it in which is the value and this is sort of great because then you can use these two proof mechanisms that Merkle trees provide again for a key value store to prove either existence or non-existence of specific values which is quite fun and has a use that I'm going to mention in a minute okay so Trillion I mentioned it's not just for certificates it can be used for wider things as well it is used for certificates that's one thing we're using it for to back CT logs a number of other I think a couple of CAs are also using it to back their CT logs which is great it's being used at the moment for something called key transparency key transparency actually uses both modes it uses the log mode and the map mode and the goal with well the idea with key transparency is to target secure end-to-end messaging so that's fun it's also being used by DeepMind are using it to DeepMind is doing a lot of work at the moment with health data, with NHS health data you may have read about it in the news and obviously health data is very sensitive and people accessing health data when they shouldn't be is bad so DeepMind are going to be using Trillion to keep a sort of verifiable log of all the data accesses that they have so then if someone does access the data in a way that they shouldn't at least they'll know they can't go back in Tampa with the access log and then there have been a number of other ideas for what to do with Trillion that have been floated so there have been some chat about binary transparency, there have been discussions about firmware transparency there was some discussion in sort of the early days of Trillion with the UK government about using it to help prove the integrity of a bunch of the registers that they maintain so things like the register of countries like register of land that the land registry keeps there's also apparently a register of all the cows in the UK which was news to me this actually made me laugh a little bit because I believe like a few years ago I someone was telling me about the old school like tech interview questions that were really abstract like oh yeah you know if you had to calculate how many cows that were in the UK how would you do it there's a register that's how I would do it yeah and so you know if any of you guys have any more sort of ideas for uses of Trillion or anything like that come and chat to us like I'm here a bunch of the guys from the team I'm on are here we would love to talk to you about your ideas that would be great and that's it thanks very much we've got time for really brief questions I think one in the middle he was first I think hello there was fantastic talk I was just wondering so when you've got billions of things in a tree and I want to calculate whether the tree head is actually accurate how fast is that because you were talking about sort of six million going in was quite slow to calculate if I want to prove that the city is accurate is that something I can do or so what do you mean do you mean like check that the whole tree is I guess so yeah if I've downloaded a certificate transparency log from semantic or whoever how how hard is it for me to prove that it is build it all the way so hard so there are so basically it currently in certificate transparency there are a number of like monitors that are doing exactly what you're saying like downloading the whole tree and building it up to calculating every single in between hash to check that that final hash like meets the one that the logs reporting and those monitors are very good at if it doesn't they will like they will get in touch with that well it's all on public mailing list I'll say look it's not in terms of like what it depends what you want to do it depends what your use case is for sort of like site owners they maybe don't care as much about that they sort of they're just like you know other people can be checking the integrity of it if Chrome trusts it then I you know kind of thing but in terms of the two proofs that I showed so if you know if you're say you're a CA and you submit a certificate to it and then you want to check that that certificate has definitely been included the number of nodes you need is log n because it's a tree so that's much quicker you know very quick verifying the whole tree can take a bit more time and all but actually the sort of challenge there is downloading the whole tree so that there's sort of different different different things okay this chap and then I think other questions will have to be offline I'm afraid yeah come and come and find us after happy to talk yeah so I was just wondering you said the tree is currently at 400 million certificates how big is that in terms of like gigabytes I don't know does anyone do you guys know how big that is in terms of gigabytes I'm getting a from my boss so we don't know no we haven't looked I can look we can look and we can we can tell you yeah okay thanks very much that's our appreciation


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