I will get the meeting of the select board called to order for Thursday, January 10th. Recording in progress. 15. And as Mike is joining us virtually, I'll go ahead and meet us through the meeting this evening. And our first order of business is to approve the agenda. I'll move to approve the agenda. Second. Moved in second. Any further discussion on today's agenda? All those in favor? Aye. Aye. Aye. Thank you. Next up is the consent agenda items. I'll move to approve the consent agenda. I'll second it. Anything further? Excellent. All in favor? Aye. Aye. Fantastic. Thank you. We have some members of the public. It looks like we assume and in the audience. So anything that isn't on the agenda now, the time, your time to speak, whether virtually or in the room. I'm gonna give them a second too. Sorry, I'm admitting two people. Thank you. That's okay. Oh yeah, I'll give them a second. Then we need to hear the- Perfect. So for those just joining, we are in the public comment section. So if you have something that you'd like to speak to that is not on today's agenda, now's the time. You can either raise your hand or unmute. I think we're all right there. So we'll move forward to select board items. The first is Down Street Housing and the ARCA funding class. We'll invite you on up. Thank you. Hi everyone. Just want me to stand here for a second. You can take a second. Perfect. You don't have to be into like- Awesome. Okay. So good evening everyone. Nice to see everyone again. So to introduce myself, I'm Nicola Anderson and the director of real estate development for Down Street Housing and Community Development. I'm here with a request for $100,000 from the town of Waterbury and ARCA funding for our project. I did provide a memo and a budget of where we're at right now with the project. But I just kind of wanted to provide a little bit more of an update too. I think a project update would be really helpful. Since the public hearing and vote that we had in October, we truly have been full steam ahead in this project, which is really exciting. And at this time, we are preparing to submit our first funding application February 4th and then our second one is February 13th. Those are two largest funding applications where we're hoping to secure most of our funding. That's our tax credit, which is from BHFA and our BHCB, Vermont Housing Conservation Board funding. So we're finalizing our design at this time, and then we are working to get an actual construction cost estimate by the end of the month. So the budget that I've submitted is not our final budget that we'll be submitting our applications with. There could be a larger gap. Right now we've kind of done at 300,000 per square foot construction cost. And we are seeing prices come in over, sorry, 400 per square foot construction cost. And we are seeing like, so we're seeing 400 per square feet, but we put 300 per square feet in our budget. But part of the funding applications too is that they have one of their questions and something that strengthens our application is actually receiving like financial support from the town in regards to their ARPA funding. They do ask that we go to the communities that we're developing in and ask for ARPA dollars. And if we do receive ARPA dollars, it just strengthens our applications. And I think it's just with this part, the funders are looking to see that the communities are understanding that housing need as well and that how the projects will be benefiting the communities that we're developing in. So a little bit about the project. We have, it is gonna be 26 units. We did do a lot of outreach regarding a possible commercial space. We designed it that way. We've not heard any feedback. We've not had any interest whatsoever. So we have to take, we can't plan for that moving forward. So we're taking that commercial space out. However, we're creating a workable office space in there that service providers for the community will be able to use that space as well. They're working with residents in our all over buildings in the community. So it is like where it's not gonna be a unit right there, but in a way that they're still giving back to the residents that we're serving. So you're not reducing it from the footprint of the project? No, it's the same. It's just about the same footprint. Would you rent it to somebody from a commercial aspect if somebody was interested down the road later? I don't. I think that we're working on getting a service plan with different service agencies to be using that office space. So as long as we have an MOU for services, for instance, so we're really the key that we're working for is workforce housing. So we've actually partnering with higher ability, which is a statewide agency that provides different resources for different employment opportunities, like classes and sitting down with residents to talk them through, like helping them fill out applications. So we were creating this MOU for services for that space be able to use for meetings like that. So those services stop in the future, which I don't really foresee happening. That's definitely an option, but at this time, I don't see another commercial tenant using that space. Would those services be for residents only or would there be a scenario in which they would be open to other members of the community as well? There could be opportunity. I know, like I think that higher ability does work with outside residents. So I do foresee them using that space to work with other people as well that they're serving. Yeah. And would you just provide that space or do we have to pay for it? We're, so we're actually providing that. The service providers are going to be paying like utility costs through the MOU for services, but we're in order to be providing the services that we think the residents need. We're providing that as a meeting space. And is there any further input from the community on the design? I know, I mean, it was fairly contentious, particularly during the first meeting about the size of the footprint and proximity to the dumpster and all those good things. Yeah, so we, I mean, we're still finalizing that design right now for what we're getting a cost estimate on. I think that once we are at more of a final design, we do intend to hold like a public hearing. We definitely are going to have the opportunity during permitting, but we want to share that information before we get to the permitting stage as well. We do the hand raised. Oh, thank you. I don't know if I've got to unmute that person. Yeah, oh, it's my turn. It's my turn. That's me. Thanks, Mike. Yeah, just in full disclosure, I used to be a program director at USDA of Rural Development and a former board member for, well, back then it was central Vermont community land trust now downstream. I'm just curious with that $100,000 number, you know, most of your money for housing projects like this are raised via tax credits. $100,000 is a scheme of things. It's not a lot of money. Does the town's $100,000 make some difference with your housing credit application? So I agree like $100,000 and a $12.5 million project is not a lot, but I don't want to come here and ask for like a third of the budget, you know, that like that's I'm trying to, what my, I really wanted to ask for realistic ask from the town regarding, so truthfully, it does actually make a huge impact because we're at a point where we, the project and the operating budget can only handle a certain amount of debt. So like we, something that we are also going to do is to ask you the utility district for a UDAG loan as well because that is a lower interest loan from other opportunities that we would have because the debt that the project can handle, like truly it can only handle $100,000 in debt. So at this time, the way that the, like even this budget that provided, I think it says that the debt is $186,000. That's still too much debt right now. So we are, there's other options like we could go to and apply for CDBG funding that also flows through the town, but that funding is extremely competitive as well and pushes out the schedule, but that's kind of a backup plan for us to ask for if we need additional funding as we look at our cost estimate. But this $100,000, just saying it does actually really help us because it means that we are taking on less debt for the project and the project can only handle a certain amount of debt. So I know you are looking for, we have heard all kinds of numbers. We've heard of significantly higher amounts and I know that kind of, probably concerning me some members of the board, but would I guess that is kind of a fixed number that you're not going to come back and ask the municipality for more.  You know, we have said in our long-term municipal plan that affordable housing is a real important. So it's not like it's going on deaf ears, but, you know, like everything, you know, we have a municipal budget that's, you know, we have to keep ranks down for municipal players and everyone sees ARPA funds being, you know, everyone wants to dip into that big pot of ARPA funds and, you know, we'd like to see a lot of good projects and, you know, just if we had some reasonable assurance that that's going to be the amount that you're going to be asking for, I'd be much more vote affirmatively for that, thanks. Yeah, we definitely wouldn't come back and ask for more. Like we would take, you know, and any receiving support from the town of Waterbury is really important to us and receiving that financial support through the ARPA funds is what I'm here for today and that's our budget we can make happen with 100,000. You know, if there is opportunity for more, our budget would appreciate it.  Like this project budget in 2020 developing early 2020 would have been like 8.7 million and now it's 12.5 and our fund, we've spent that like through the state, those additional housing dollars have been spent. So we're back to our pre-COVID budget for housing development. It's really competitive for us to be able to move a project forward. We do feel like we have a really strong project. You know, everyone is really excited in the state about this project, but the opportunity for like 200,000, yes, but I would be super grateful just to receive that 100,000 as well. A couple of questions if I may. Yeah. The first is assume for a minute that this is approved by the board and approved by the voters. Why don't you seek the funds? So we would be closing. I would say we think if all lines up, if things go perfectly, I hope to close like November 2023. So when I say close, that's our financial closing. So ideally we would like to requisition those funds then. If that's not feasible, with the way I think we can push that, we can requisition it later in the project, but right now the timeline for us if funding decisions line up, like our board, the applications are due February, the board meetings are April, May, possibly another one in the summer depending. It would be a closing in November breaking ground. Horrible time of the year for that, but early 2023. You say closing. 2024. 2024, yes. Closing that financial closing, which is then starts our construction. I'm sorry, bringing the ground up. In the early winter, the winter, yeah.  And truthfully, even like winter conditions prices don't affect project budgets as much as you would think at this time, interestingly. Yeah. So that's our... Can you do the site work with the frozen ground? Yeah. Doesn't pretty still have you on anymore, do I? Yeah. Yeah. Where's that? Yeah. Sorry, not me. Question for the board to consider is if you're comfortable with the closing and paying the funds to closing, which I think actually sounds quite reasonable, but I think whether it's somehow phrased in the warning or whether it's a separate MOU, we should make that clear just in the event that... The closing is delayed? The closing is delayed. We don't wanna... I don't think the board wants to pay, the town wants to pay for things like soft costs and then if the product is delayed... Yeah, let's sit there. It's not happening in general for Seattle, but... So I think closing is a good benchmark. Yeah. When we close, that is all of our ducks in a row. That is, we've got the construction contract, everything is signed and we've gone out to bed, gotten the pricing, that's the construction contract and we have a start date set. And then sometimes ducks get out of line along the way, which is to this point... So, Nicola, would you say for closing, are you talking about paying the village at that time too, November, or is that beforehand? Paying the fee from... Are you done? Yeah. Yeah, sorry. I'm sorry. Cash will go to the bank. Yes, that's when we would do that too, like the full acquisition, yeah. Okay, that's fine. I have a question as well. So we, as we've already talked about, we have made some funding allocations with ARPA, but wanted to let the voters be much more involved in approving things. So, we as a board might decide in advance of town meeting to say, we want this on the ballot, but the voters won't vote until, of course, town meeting. So would that still help strengthen your applications knowing they're doing February, even if it's not necessarily a done deal? Like, is that... Yeah, our board meetings, the first one is in April. So that's after town meeting day. So then that helps. I can, you know, we, through applications, like applications, I'm gonna put this $100,000 in the budget, but it's just unclear. And I will like put the date of knowing town meeting day. Yeah. I think it does strengthen knowing that I've come and met with the town, you know, we're doing that. But we will at least have that decision by the board meeting, which will be helpful. Typical unit, square foot, right? All right, the square foot size. Yeah, so we're gonna have studio, we're gonna have like five, I should have brought this. There's five studios, like 17 one bedrooms and then the rest are two bedrooms. The studios, so the one bedrooms are about like 750 square feet. The studios are definitely less than that in the 600s. And then the one bedrooms about 950 square feet. I don't know. Two bedrooms, yeah. Two bedrooms. Two bedrooms, so I see 17 plus. I think it's four or five, four or five, two bedrooms. Because here's sales before. Residential development cost per unit is around 480,000. Yeah, so then that's the, is that square feet or unit price? Per unit price. Yeah, that's per unit price. Yeah. So that's, that's pretty low. That's a lot more than, square. It's closer to $500 a square foot or more. It's going 459. 459. So the per unit, okay, so this square foot actually puts 459, so that's actually, sorry, I thought we had kept us at 300. So this is actually a little bit more realistic. I will say I just got construction cost pricing on another project, and the per unit cost was 530,000, which is just unbelievable. But I actually feel more comfortable with these budgets about the construction price, like not being, we still, we don't know what's gonna happen, but I do know it's very common when prices go up, rarely do they come down. But I think this is, we've really tried to buffer in our budget as much as possible to plan for this construction, for a construction estimate, and be prepared that we're asking for as much as we do need to ask. I mean, this is flashbacks of the fire station issue. For me, I've been in building trades for my entire working career, self-employed, and back then, almost $6 million budget, fortunately, was overturned by the voters and the recidivist were able to get the two projects done. And I've said it before, and I'll continue to say it, that when it comes to taxpayers' dollars, it's a free-for-all. When it comes to pricing, I know pricing is somewhat high now. I just had a gentleman build a garage with an apartment over the top, energy efficient in every sense. I forget the size, 30 by 32, something like that. That was half a million dollars. We're talking each one of these units, being close to that, it seems a little excessive. I know there are other issues in play here, meeting code and fire hazard, whatnot. So one of my questions is to the board, how will this have gone if there were no ARPA funds, along with so many other people that have come to the table for ARPA funds? And I've expressed my concern before that the time the town gets around to use these ARPA funds for the entire municipality, it may be much less, much less. So I'm sure the board's cognizant of that. In this discussion. And we got two state representatives here in Waterbury. Is there something that they can do to help assist this project from the state level, as opposed to pulling ARPA funds again? So I will just say, the BHCB ask that state funding. So that's allocation from state, from the, that's Vermont Housing Conservation. So the state allocation of funds. And I don't know if you've been following at this state, but usually, you can see that that's a huge ask for BHCB, but usually the yearly allocation from them for housing development is about 30 to 40 million. We as a statewide, statewide, all housing developers have come together and got, and it's been in the news about the presenting that we're gonna be doing for the state budget is to ask for the full allocation of the need for what we're trying to develop this year, which is $179 million. Like that's where, so for all of the projects, everything that's trying to get developed for the BHCB allocation in each project around the state in order to fund all the projects that are coming that we have developed, that we are planning to develop. We need $179 million this year to award every single project. So usually, so think about, usually it's 40 million. And that then 25% of that is taken to conservation. So that's 30 million that is allocated to housing projects in a year. So we, they are, I mean, Tom Stevens, thank goodness was nominated again to the housing committee at the state. So he is allocating for housing, especially for Waterbury. So lucky that he lives in the town of Waterbury, but that $100,000 that we could possibly get, $100,000 will then make sure that this project can operate in a positive, you know, that we can afford the maintenance, afford, it's all the operating budget operate well. Also, the need that Waterbury has said each year, especially now is we know we need the housing units, right? Like Waterbury, there's a 1.5 vacancy rate, I think, or less that workforce housing, that's what we've really committed to. We're bringing in services to help with that workforce housing if needed to make sure that we've got people that are either looking for jobs or those resources to help with their taxes, things like that. I totally get it. I mean, I understand, I can't imagine how many asks that you're getting in ARPA, because I know that everyone, you know, any grants, anyone's going out there, but it is really, this is really important to us too, and I don't see us, like we are maxing out the ask from Vermont Housing Conservation from our tax credits already in this project. So if we don't get that, then we have to start cutting things from our budget too. So that might mean that we have a less durable something in there, less energy efficient something, but we can't, because we have to develop to these standards too. Well, the problem for me is that the town, you know, I've been on the board for 10 years now, and when I got on the board originally, the town was woefully behind on infrastructure programs, projects back then, and you know, we're gaining ground slowly, but we're still woefully behind, and the more of this money we give up to, you know, new projects is gonna just take away from our ability to get caught up on simply what we should be responsible for now that we've already got in our lab, let alone just, you know, excluding, taking on anything new, and it's our one, probably our one chance at this point, unless there's some of this build back, better plan money coming down the road. I disagree with all of it. In fact, if I had my drafters, I'd use that money to pay off the national debt, because all they're doing is drowning us all, but that conversation, another time, and probably another place, but anyway, that's my two cents. Do you know before ARPA, did they ask on applications if the town had financially contributed? No. So I guess, and that's, I take your point really seriously, Chris, which is if this wasn't ARPA funding, would we be having this conversation because using the Bill Shepaleck, a penny on the tax rate is 70,000, I would not propose a 1.3% tax increase to give down street $100,000. Personally, I would not support that proposal. I think somewhat akin to the conversation you had around WASI and the new building, you know, it is this gift. I was awkwardly gesturing at Tom if anyone saw because I made the point you just said to ARPA and that I made from the beginning, which is a little ARPA here, a little ARPA here and the ARPA is gone. And so Tom sent a spreadsheet, this hasn't been sent to the whole board, but we can pass around. Tom, is this okay? I mean, it's public, but just walking through like what we've already spent, you know, that we already outlined, ice center, blah, blah, and there is a balance. I mean, this, and this was including his full proposal for town bridges that we're talking later. This was every request we've had, plus some other things with reappraisal. So it's a ballpark number like who knows. Plus the E-Fub board is meeting tomorrow. Plus the E-Fub board is meeting tomorrow. So I'm not discounting a request. I guess my questions, I think it is, my bottom line is I think it is really important we as a town show support for the project. I think we don't always have tangible projects, particularly in housing. So the fact that we can take a dollar and move it directly into a project to me is a positive. This also I want to give Tom credit for, but like for example, we did allocate ARPA funding to CD fiber that was particularly tied to serving the community and being used for like specific costs to connect folks in Waterbury. I recognize and appreciate that $100,000 is a pretty number and I would personally like reasonable starting number for us. Is there a way to tie it to some component of the project costs as opposed to just it being like a line in the budget? I recognize that's not totally right for this project. I don't know how you structure like we've had some numbers that are just kind of like out of the air and I just didn't knowing that you developed these types of projects. Is there a cost that sometimes feels like? I mean, we can restrict it to actual construction costs. Like of that instead of it being like a soft cost that's paying for like, you know, the architect and engineering fees, you know, which are $350,000. But I think that we can definitely redo that to restrict it to the actual construction. And to be clear, I'm not suggesting that we need to see specific invoices, but the closing is a good milestone. Another milestone is just a shovel on the ground. Physical shovel on the ground, that could be the point at which a check is issued. At that point, it's going. Yeah, oh, definitely. Like that's like, I don't, I agree with that. I think we'd want, we, I mean, obviously people work on legality how to do that, but we want to put restrictions in that way. I think that's totally fair. That might also be good for the voters to see exactly what they're, what the dollars are doing. Yes. For specifically for something like construction costs.  I mean, I can allocate it to say work, but. I just didn't know it was more like if you were like, and again, I personally don't feel that strong. I really wanted to raise it because I thought it was an interesting point just around like, oh, well, we know that the water sewer connection portion is going to be 76,000 and to me, you know, we're going to have a conversation about like, oh, is that. With, when we have our construction cost, obviously we do. And so we can definitely do something like that to be creative as well. Like about like, especially with something, that's it, like utilities connecting to the town. If we think like that's going to be stronger or something for the town to understand that something more unique in that way, we could allocate it in that way too. I mean, personally, I think it's really important that we support out of minimum. I mean, if they're asking the question, I would say out of minimum, like we should give them 10 or 20. I think it's really important that we as a board. I think, I mean, we supported once Skip came here and said, do you support the sale of 51 South Main Street? We did all agree with that. And so if then there's a question of if the town supports that, I think putting some money where our mouth is, being that it's ARPA money is really important. I think we as a board can have a discussion, personally thought is around like number. And Danny also raised this point that I think is interesting about having it as a question. Cause that's also a precedent you all set before I was on the board with the ice center and others. And when you asked, was it a question before about the communities supporting financially? No, but communities have and it's made it a much stronger application. So like for instance, our front block project in Montpelier where it was the first floor is Albichon hardware and it was two floors vacant. The city Montpelier gave us $400,000 from their housing fund. So, and that was huge. And you know, like our funders at that time were very, were a little bit wary in the project and that was huge and that support as well. But I also, I totally understand that your concerns infrastructure, like believe me and that's a conversation that I've been going through with every community. I was at very city asking for them for money too. And there was, they had 18 community asks at this public hearing, 18. And you know, after everyone presented their idea all the community said, we need infrastructure. Luckily, we were funded as well at that. Cause I think it was a brand really, I think we were one of the only projects that were funded other than the infrastructure just needing that housing need as well. And not to compare apples to apples. I'm fairly sure berries should be allocated 250,000 in nine units. Yeah, they did. And so just in terms of also unit being per box, 26 is pretty significant. And I ask that. Yeah, I also recognize Chris's concern and I am prepared to support a much larger allocation for infrastructural projects that need attention now. But in this case, I think we've had people come before us indicating that there is no worker housing available in Waterbury. People can't find lodging here to work in our restaurants and some of the lower paying jobs here. And I think $100,000 is a relatively small contribution to a $12 million effort. And so I'm gonna support this. A question and a comment. You said, you keep talking about workforce housing. And I think at the last public meeting, you said that there's no requirement to be workforce housing. Is that not the case? So it's, there's not like workforce housing in regards to the incomes that we're serving. You know, so it's not market rate units. So these units are not going to be, it's not going to be $1,500 for a one bedroom unit. So people with the area of medium income, it's restrictive for how much they make in the community. Truthfully, and the numbers that we presented, like people that work in the restaurants can afford and like teacher, if it says teacher and a child, they'll be able to live in our, you have to, you can only make a certain amount of money to live in the unit. I guess my question more is, so is, is it one of the qualifications that you actually are holding a job? No, we can't do that for housing regulations. Take that away. But we have to have like service providers in our units and we have to, so 25% of our units have to be our lower income. And with that, we have service partners. So we're working with agencies to locate people that for low income units, for people that you actually, so for instance, we have someone that works in Waterbury that lives in middle sex in their car that we already, there's working with a service provider that's been trying to get into an apartment would love to work, live where they work. And so that's what their salary, they could live in one of our units. So what we've been doing is working, our plan is to work with service providers to be more pointed as to the people that we do accept. So we can't say you're required to have a job, but we can say, you have to be working with these service providers who are then looking for this type of population to be living in the housing as well. Okay, my comment is, I'm going out on a limb here. Is there any benefit or consideration that E-Fund might just donate the land and allow us the 100,000 to stay in our butt and use it for something else? So please, on an earlier call down the street, ask that question and correct me if I'm wrong and think you're wrong on the call. I suppose E-Fund could donate the land, but we actually talked about it with respect to a loan and Bill made the point rather than paying for the property would help advance the project if the purchase price about 140,000 as I recall was just a mortgage. And they said it couldn't be that they had to buy it now, they could buy it at a reduced price. So yes. Well, I think the village- Could we vote it on it to buy it at that price? So I just, like, the mass of it. The village voted to sell it. Yeah, yeah. You need to buy it. Sorry. And I think there was, I think it was even more that people were concerned about the idea of donating. Like, and that's what I think we were concerned about how that would come across as well as the idea of donating it. So he said like paying for it, I agree with you, I like that. Right. I already said that. I was going out. No, I know. I was going out. Yeah, I know. I get it, I get it. I don't know about it. Keep selling it. It's not a great idea. Why should only the people who live in, only live in, leave it like that? I knew you were going to say that. So my comment to that is $100,000 would go towards infrastructure that benefits everybody in the town, not just E-fund. It's, yeah. I guess that's why. So just think about 26 people working in the community will benefit the town too. The other point, so E-fund is meeting tomorrow at 11 and they're meeting because they asked us to calculate their rate reduction during COVID and how much lost revenue that was to E-fund. And that's public information. That's about 3,000 or 10,000. So the purpose of tomorrow's meeting is to ask how much of that is any should E-fund purchase like word for for our phones for reimbursement? Sorry. We got another limb to go out on now. I just got to tree down, get it over with. Other questions for Nicola?  I don't want to say intentionally in because that's not the message. I don't say you were trying to be really respectful, which I really appreciate about what was both a piece of your project and felt like a reasonable ask. Yeah, I don't know. So I'll move to appropriate, or is that going to go on warrant for the townee? That's a question for you. And I think that's a question that we're also going to get to pretty soon. But would that be embedded in your budget or separately warrant? I would think it sounds like from what I'm hearing separately warrant. Yeah. And the question would essentially say do appropriate $100,000 when construction begins? You warned the $700,000 for E-fund that they ended up not taking. Right. Well, that was actually the budget. I'm sorry. I know. I'm sorry. $100,000 for the Ice Center was born. That's not it. I just don't know. You've talked about with Wassie as I understand it, that's more. So it seems like this. That was budgeted, I think. I think the difference was CD5. Didn't we put the Wassie at some level? CD5 or was, you already paid that. No, I know. Sorry, but I meant for Wassie, we put that in the budget. Or did they have my misunderstanding? I guess we haven't made that. There's nothing finalized, right? I don't believe, I think if you look back at the minutes. Yeah. You told Wassie that you were. Appending. Yeah. That was our town, so. Mike, you have your hand up. Yes. Just a procedural question for Tom. I was a board member for Down Street and I am a computer. So I should probably abstain from voting. You were a board member? Yes, I was. If you remember a number of years ago. Down Street. If that's what you feel most comfortable doing, Mike, that's fine. I feel, I feel just more transparent to abstain from voting. That's fine. Someone else has their hand up on Zoom. If you could let us know who you are. She's from Middlestick. See she. Oh. Good evening. This is Cheryl Bloor. I'm a resident of Waterbury. So thank you for letting me out. My concern really is really about the fun leaving the town of Waterbury.  But I am concerned that, you know, a private business and a developer that is located in the city of Berry is asking for funds that are really designated federally designated for the city of Berry. For our infrastructure, which we've all been discussing tonight. We have had issues for quite a long time. We have a lot of projects, you know, bridges, sidewalks, roads. We have, I think a hundred thousand dollars could go pretty far in marking the lines of the new pavement. I guess my concern is, is, you know, once we lose that money, it's gone. Down Street has more than a hundred thousand dollars. It's gone. Down Street has many other avenues to get money as it has been discussed tonight. But once those ARPA funds are gone for the town of Waterbury, that's it. We don't have a lot of other avenues except for taxpayer money to build up that budget again for the infrastructure. My other concern is, if this was going to be voted on tonight or if you are going to bring this to town meeting, I couldn't quite get the vibe on whether this is going to be a town meeting vote or not. I would ask that we would deny the request only because I would rather have that be used for the infrastructure that we've all been trying to fix within the village and Waterbury Center as a whole. But if we're not going to, at least that give the, all the voters of the village a vote at town meeting. Thank you. Thank you. So a couple of notes. It will go to the voters. Our vote tonight will be to, whether to put it on the ballot or not. So it will go to the voters and it will either be in the budget or as a separate item, but we will decide that shortly. And just a clarification that the money would go directly to the project in Waterbury. So I'm not sure if that was unclear, but I think that the money would come from the housing here on Main Street and would be directly for the construction of housing for Waterbury residents. So I just wanted to clear that up for you. I also just wanted to clear up that Down Street's not a private developer. We're actually the local nonprofit developer that's for the, for the town of Waterbury. We also have three other buildings that we operate in Waterbury. Yes. Our offices in Barry, understand that I was just what I was alluding to is perhaps asking the city area where your business is located and I say business because I know you must pay salaries I'm pretty sure and everybody works for free so I know that your location your business is in Barry and I wasn't sure if you already talked to them about funding for your non-profit. Barry did we develop so we're developing a housing project in Barry and Barry has very city allocated funding for that project in Barry but the expectation would be is that we would come to the local community that we're developing the housing task that are for dollars it wouldn't where our office is located. Yes and I think to be clear as you can correct me if I'm wrong Michael I thought the money that you're talking about here a hundred thousand dollars while it's paid to downspeed it's doesn't pay your salaries or rent or anything it goes into the project that is going to be built at 51 cell industry in this town. I mean don't get me wrong here one last comment I understand I get it I understand that the town will benefit in different ways from this project as to Cheryl's point you know once the ARF is gone that's that's it and the infrastructure issue will be back in our lab and have to be paid for through taxes and it's the cost keep escalating when they're like we're all seeing that's all going to just be worse down the road. One quick point I just want to make is that the funds do come back to us it's 12 million dollar building to build and I know low-income housing is not taxed at the full rate but if it's taxed at a million it's 5300 dollars but a year based on our current tax rate for every million so if it's taxed at 2 million bucks it's about a 10-year payback so it that in government terms a 10-year payback is is not bad so it's it is going to grow the grand list I can't I don't have that number for you but it's it's going to be significant. Yeah I think he said so the motion is to put it on the warrant either through the budget or some warning item at town meeting the voters vote on $100,000 allocation for down street project in one cell in the street down to the housing so you want to wait to decide to a later meeting whether it's in the budget yeah I think we want to talk about that another and just so people are aware Monday's meeting we should be completely through the budget including all the special articles and so the goal by the end of Monday is to have not the warning written but I can take after that meeting go back and work with Aaron and get the warning out to very quickly after that so you could meet on the 30th but it would be hopefully to just approve the warning yeah that's if it goes important to say that whether it's in the morning on the budget yeah I don't think so you could decide it tonight but you'll need to decide it pretty soon yeah maybe if we can take a look at some of the other other funding activities so that we want to fund them in this budget here yeah we'll see what that looks like I think this is general about how that is going to be set up in the budget okay I'll second what you are second since all of that further discussion should have happened after a second which is what I was trying to facilitate um so we have a motion and a second it was not just you because um motion the second we've had some further discussion is there any more all in favor hi hi any problems and Mike you look same thank you thank you thank you thank you so much everyone for actually here I know you've been here I've been in other versions support people thank you definitely thanks all right next up we have property for the ice under a long time west though it's under select board items sure so at your last meeting I believe maybe in two meetings ago you accepted the properties that if I did transfer to essentially all the parks this one was was held up in reviewing the deed skipped it is full history review and and needed some extra time so so at ifa's meeting skip table this they've now approved it so this would be the final of the e-flood properties to transfer to the town sky center property skip has reviewed it he's the de facto attorney emeritus I think the legal team has reviewed it skip hasn't been in to sign it yet but that's perfunctory that'll happen um so you need to accept the deed property so this is the 40 acres of land one of which you want to set a six of five you like to set a six on one acre of this well that's why most people actually recently gone but there's no stupid bug site over there yeah somewhere in the bottom is all the things we're going to need to accept all those in favor right Just a quick question. I know in the warranty deed, it refers to a memorandum I assume that's all been crafted, but I know I haven't received a copy of that. Hang on. What do you 40 acres? Yes, that's all recorded already. So I didn't provide a copy of that with you, but that was crafted and recorded earlier this year. That was something that you, the two boards agreed on that MOU to start this process. Right. I just would like final copy. I don't know if any of the other board members would too. Oh, yeah. So I believe Rachel was going to be here, but we're a little ahead of schedule. So I can skip. If it's okay, I think an easy one to cover is the fire protection contract. So this is. It's identical to prior years. It's been in place for some time. It's a formula contract based on a percent of our costs, and then it's adjusted based on. Our percent of the grand list versus their percent of the grand list. And our assessor actually did an analysis and did a parcel by parcel analysis to make sure that that 76% is correct. So I think it's a fair contract, essentially, you know, almost 15% of our fire budget is defrayed upon another town for a fair service. Yeah. So I think that's, I think that's great. The one, the one thing I want to think about, not for this year, but very long term and I haven't done this yet is I've gone back and pulled the contracts for the last five years Karen, I shouldn't say that Karen pulled the contracts for the last five years for me, I sent an email. I want to look forward long term because on a micro level every year our grand list is growing a little faster than theirs, which means every year they'll pay a tiny bit. The percentage, the cost will go up, but they'll pay a smaller percentage and so maybe not this year, but maybe not next year but maybe in 2025 or 2026 we want to think about a fixed price with an inflator and enter into a three or five year agreement if we can way to think of it as every new development on route 100 reduces us a little bit. Maybe we can. I think for this year it's a fair number. And they've, they've seen this. And I believe they intend to approve it too. So we need to approve us. Yes. You can approve it you can just pass one around get signatures before you go. We have a motion and a second, any further discussion. We've said yes. Yeah. Okay, all those in favor. It's Rachel here. I'm going to give Rachel a few more minutes and leave on move on to the other ends I believe Karen now is zoomed in. Karen are you there. I'm hoping Karen's iPad is, is our town works. She may be putting a kid to bed. Oh, here she is. No, Karen needed to figure out how to use her iPad. Hi everybody. Good are you. So Karen run the town meeting day update. So the house house bill that we forwarded to you. Yeah. So the house and a Senate. So it's on the governor's test for signature. So it, it essentially gives you the ability to move to the COVID rules for town meeting day, both this year and next year. And so, really from Karen's perspective, doesn't impact me a whole lot. From Karen's perspective, to some extent from my perspective. Assuming that this bill is signed into law. We'd like to get some direction on whether or not you would essentially have a full Australian ballot town meeting or have a traditional town meeting. We'll just point out that we're just watering our understanding of the program. So we're trying not to think about what cities like and everything like that. What are you talking about? What are you talking about? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mike. I'm just, I know a lot of people who I've spoken with definitely would like to see going back to water buries. Connections a little tough. I don't know if it's your microphone, but maybe move it away from something touching something, but we're having a little public hearing. Not really very scratching. Yeah, I'm getting the same because I'm having a little hard time hearing as well. So I don't know if it's my device. It's better now.   You know, but I think it's people's choice. You know, I think you, you may see more people mask, even we may want to provide people with masks and how maybe encourage people to pass it. I don't know. We don't get a discussion of town business via Australian ballot, especially that we have pretty significant, you know, articles that will be on the agenda. That's my personal opinion, and from people who I have spoken to bring for a total Australian ballot. Okay, we just keep losing you, but I think that we got your sentiment and appreciated. And then if you don't mind, like, will you mute in between when you're speaking. Okay, thank you. Question, if we make a decision this year, can we revisit next year, since it looks like it's a two year like we don't decide right now for two years. Because I, it's a conversation that I love to have with the board, I think it even could warrant half or a whole meeting but you know you see other towns making changes as well and while the nostalgia of town meeting is really important to a lot of people and it is a big conversation. It's not all inclusive and it does exclude a lot of folks and is a big ask for for people in the town and I would love to have a bigger conversation, both with the board and the whole community and get input and a lot of what we can do here is anecdotal because we all have different folks in the town and it's a good mix but it's not actual specific data that, you know, has numbers, quality, you know, qualitative numbers attached to it so I know that it's a really hard ask for a lot of people who have to work families, et cetera, and, you know, just because some people have no competition doesn't mean everyone gets to so it might be too big of a decision for, you know, so close to this year's town meeting but that's a strong feeling but I have that if we decide to keep doing it because we really visited all of the reasons why and it's best for our community, not just because that's the way it's always been done so it's one of the voices that For the reasons you just cited particularly that it's not a day off for most working people and they can't afford to take that four hours of discussion off to participate. My preference would be to have all voting measures on Australian ballot, but to continue having that public discussion for those who can for this day, and that process to go forward, but have all voting measures on the ballot. So, you do understand that if you have Australian ballot for town meeting, you're required to have a public information, prior to that, which can be in public by zero. That can be a hybrid meeting. Town meeting itself cannot be hybrid because the voting going on, there's no way to be able to check the conventions of voting, registered voters who are on Zoom. So if you're going to have town meeting by Australian ballot, you would have to have public information meeting. It usually is a week before it's really done it. My only comment is that, you know, I'm not up on the bill but you said it's for two years. Yeah, it's your summer of next next summer. So, unless the legislature takes some action to change it to make this emergency measure permanent to go to what you want to do. So, is there going to be any more participation at next year's town meeting than this year's town meeting? I think if you want to talk to the voters about going to Australian ballot format, have a town meeting and do it. Because if you're just doing this year and next year because the legislature says so, the year after you have to come back and have town meeting. Because the voters have to, without the emergency measures, the way you move from an open town meeting to an Australian ballot, you have to have an open town meeting where it's on the morning, stay on the voters vote. So it couldn't be done via this bill in, let's say we decided this year to go to Australian ballot. It couldn't be on that ballot. It couldn't be. Right, so we don't have to. I don't know. Because it seems kind of genuine to have a town meeting and ask if people want a town meeting. We have to decide this special legislation. That's a good question. Because without this emergency measure, you have to have an open town meeting to make a decision to go to. I think within this, these two years that we're able to that would be the most equitable way to get feedback from the community. I think I would love to know what our options are for an advisory question. I'm going to say I'm here with Danny and Robert saying so much and I think this is something where I might need to change my mind because I recognize what you're saying about access inclusive and I grew up with town meeting and I'm an absolute sucker for it. I think the hardest part of I think this conversation is that we don't have it. And I agree that I work. I've worked but I still work for number. I couldn't take time meeting up a holiday last year because our personnel policy reads. I think that's all besides the point. I think it is tough to go from having to have our last one in 2020. And never have an in person family again before we leave this at the question. So I just, I don't know what I'm deciding for this year. I just either is a loss to say that we never knew it was our last thing. I still have a large in person informational meeting. This would be the voting piece of that in a meeting. And my questions that I think we're not going to resolve tonight that we want to think about is how we create states so that is well attended. I've attended the virtual one before you people and it feels like we're going to have a special meeting for the fire department or something, which is fine. But in my mind, honestly, yes, you get more voters and I do fundamentally agree that is more participation. And so maybe again, this is where I need to change and get on board with that. But I mean, and also before you last time meeting because it's how many anyone can stand up and ask any question and I just think. I'm not anyone, the people who. And I came to you I posted a years ago I posted something on Facebook about how I love telling you because I had a holiday for my job and I posted this like heartfelt, beautiful thing on Facebook, and immediately, 70 responses. That's like, that's a really exciting point of view for you and all these people telling me their stories about how they can't understand how they feel. So to say I'm commiserating because I change my thinking as well. And now I see it that way, but just moving forward. So the question bill had that we need to be would need to answer this. Are there any specific legal hurdles we need to cross if you were going to formally warrant change or format but if you wanted to ask an advisory question. That would just be part of your warning. I think at this minimum, it's a really good idea to ask a question about is that's going to be data for the future. We're going to simply decide about this. Well, that's very just moving forward to complete Australia. You talk about inclusive inclusivity. There's so many variables in this question. I'm going to go from one point to the other. Say people can't show up because they're working. If they were given the day off with pay, would they show up anyway. Australian ballot, how many people are actually informed about the issues they're voting on, because you don't ever see them at these meetings. And the paper is only able to provide them with so much information. So what, what real, what's the right word.  I think that's one of the issues like with her here tonight, explaining to us what she talked about and how we arrived at. At least at town meeting, you can ask the question, you can challenge the budget, you can do whatever you want to do. At least it seems like there's more of a honest representation of at least the votes that are there. As far as knowing the background or knowing answering their questions. I don't know if Karen knows the last two years through the Australian ballot, oh, the attendance. We're significantly higher. Aaron, just a little question. I don't believe cold is ever going away. So, I mean, so either going to, I think that's part of the reason for the state doing what they did, right, because now they're being faced with what they're claiming is an uptick in COVID cases. So they're implementing this. They're doing the options. Yeah, it's been an option for the next couple of years and I believe that they'll probably make it better. I'll say come up with some new local cure and they certainly haven't done that yet. No, no, no, it was answered. It was answered. Thank you. Yeah, so I guess the question is what do we want to resolve today. You don't have to resolve anything today the bill is not passed. We're proceeding internally as town meeting. I think we just know if there's if there's support for just continuing that path and I think we're we're all set. I guess how do we then ask the question to more, you know, if it's an advisory question but at town meeting. How do we reach the people who are at town meeting. I don't know that we. Yeah, is it a special. The question was if it can be one that's on ballot on town meeting day, not on board, or on people. In the room, we can come to the room again is not right. Right. And I think on this problem. I just remember there are, there are many options and I've worked in other times. And it doesn't seem to matter when you have your open town meeting, you kind of get the same number of people, it's just different. So the state law already allows you in towns like Waterbury where you can like all your business by Australia, I mean, all your business by four votes, except for the election of officers. And any ballot item that would be following books and things like that all day on Tuesday. But there's a meeting for the open questions, you can do it the night before, or you can do it on the Saturday. I mean, I kind of agree with what Chris said in that, you know, open town meeting is, is a tradition. It's a function. You don't have to have the open town meeting at nine o'clock in the morning on Tuesday, you can have it at some o'clock that night on Monday. You can have it at nine o'clock in the morning or noon time or three o'clock in the afternoon on a Saturday. You can already have those options available to all of them required to count to make a decision when it's going to be done. And except for this quirky special provision right now, it all requires an open town meeting vote to go with something different. And, you know, if it's that important, maybe people will come out to an open town meeting to say, this should be the last one. Well, people will spoken then if we do that, right. I need to see the door. Are you proposing a form of this year? Because I guess I believe you have a question. I'm sorry. Thank you for just one second. It seems like your hands raised and I can come back to you. I didn't think of trying. I'll still turn it down to today. Right. Give us. Yes, I do. I'm kind of want to piggyback on what both Chris and Bill had said. I think it's really important, the discussion of the budget. I think that's one of the most by town meeting. I think to do the town. I think both of them. Should we? What's that? Can you work while you're telling us if you could shorten what you want to say we might have. Yeah, I'm having audios going in and out on my connection as well. So it sounds like the gist of you. You want to let folks have your foot on particularly the budget. Get more participation. I don't know, but I do think by not having discussion of town budgets. I think we lose something in the town. Personal opinion and I'll leave it at that. Thank you. Would you, would you please mute when you are talking like thank you so much. I mean, assuming everybody works there in a week. We could try a Saturday that way. It gives one parent. I mean, the reality is that the people that do get the day off the county. I mean, it's, I'm not sure that this is a new phenomenon. I think if you go back to 1935 and look at the population of the town, the number of people that come to town. That doesn't mean we don't want to look at it and do the best we can for the most people. So I think the conversations healthy whether we change anything or not is almost irrelevant. But hearing feedback from people in our town it's our responsibility to have a conversation, see what works the most for the most people and maybe we change nothing but maybe we do. I'm not, I'm not comfortable saying what's how we've always done it and nobody else will come let's just do it. I think it's important that we all have our points of view but that we ask for input from the town as well. I think the conversation. You can't have the conversation if it's just an Australian ballot vote. What does it mean. Are we going to do. It's just yes or no. It's not. Well, isn't there another way that we can do it. I mean in Luxbury they had a meeting. The people came to a special town meeting and open special town meeting. They've talked about what they wanted, why they wanted to change it, what the programs were, what the options were to make it better and they came up with, we're going to go to the meeting and we're going to have a meeting in January and we're going to all bring pie to the meeting. I mean, that couldn't have happened if you just had an Australian ballot vote. I can't have a similar meeting and the rules would allow us to have a hybrid meeting in that case, as well as far as I understand, right to have an open meeting to have a conversation. It doesn't have to be information to have to get input. It doesn't have to just be a yes and no on a ballot. We can also have a meeting to solicit input just like that's great. I don't, you know, an option for us as well. I think that two years ago they had a town meeting. Yeah. I think that's interesting in this right assuming it costs is in some ways I think it's right because bought for this being here. Correct. But without doing it. So if you have the option to do that for you, that we sort of have. Or. Yeah. For art and. Monday. Yeah. I was going to get how you put the district fields. Fire safety. Yeah. Yeah. You have to do that to vote. And we've heard a lot of feedback from someone doing outreach around that saying, well, I can't go in person to vote for that. So I don't know if we're in a position to vote on this tonight. I guess I would support trying to meet this year. But that would be a Monday information. Right. No, actually. Find out. So I think this gives us, we want to double check, but this says we can move the date. Correct. I think if the time has changed that legal, like we want to just double check, but this gives us flexibility and changing the. Yeah. So what does that do some of the voting. Aspect of it. Well, for this one, we will have to be there. Just. Just. Just. I'm going to worry about logistics right now. So how meeting day is Tuesday. And it's a lot easier to have a meeting when school is close to everything else. If you're going to move it through a Monday and you're still going to try to have it in the school. Well, we don't know what's going on in school. So we have to get. Is that an issue. Because if you move it to a Monday later than. Then you're going to be asking for the school staff to set up. After school is done. So an open town meeting, if you're going to do that. If you want to. If you want to have an Australian ballot meeting. And if you find out whether we can. Do away with open town meeting. Is not about questions often. That answer from somewhere. Yeah. Yeah, we're just thinking if you're going to actually hold town meeting on a Monday evening. That have voting booths set up. Some people may not. So the voting, if you had it on Monday evening. Good. We have a bunch of chairs on it. After the meeting ended.  Which is.  One day afternoon when school is closed and Woody and the highway crew or water department people. You know, you know, I don't know if I can help Carla or in this case, I'll Karen get the gym ready. So Monday night. Then all the voting on Tuesday. The next day is a little bit of a challenge. That's what I was getting. All of that part of it. You know, because if you're going to vote on everything too on Monday, but it sounds like. The night meeting Monday. It requires people to come. It's just the downside. That's why a lot of towns. A lot of race. We're going to have a meeting. We'll just have a Tuesday morning. And you can be there once and vote. And in the meeting. So there's. Pluses and minuses. Questions and calls to everything. There's no perfect solution. So we can talk about this more on Monday. All right. Let's go. She must have forgotten. I can present it. Woody's waiting here. So. Move on to public works. And I can. I'm not sure if he went home or if he's down the hall, but. He's on zoom. Let me hit the highlights and let, let Woody fill in the, fill in the numerous gaps. I'll leave. Maybe. Maybe him. Yeah. I'm patiently waiting in his office. Wait, how are you here and still on zoom? I'm not sure if he went home or if he's down the hall, but he's on zoom. Let me hit the highlights and let, let Woody fill in the, fill in the numerous gaps I'll leave. Maybe. Maybe him or. I'll leave him. I'll leave him. I'll leave him. I'll leave him here and still on zoom. Be aware. So. Okay. Well, I might just stay. So. Looking at the very top line, which is property taxes. Pretty substantial. Increase. Compared to last year. Driven by three big things. The first is. In 2022, the, the select board. The voters approved $95,000 and ARPA funds to. I'll set the property taxes going into the highway fund. So yeah. You use one shot revenue and you got to make up for it the next year. So we. We're making up for that. The second piece is. In the highway budget, we. We're making up for that. We've all battled with the auditors a little bit. And I've had this battle in St. Alvin's too, where. There's, there's an accounting goal that. You're not supposed to budget for debt in your capital project funds. Traditionally, that's the way it was done here. And so. I've just decided that. I don't want to fight with the auditors over that. So the debt is out of those funds and all consolidated here. I don't want to fight with the auditors I'm sure, but. This is an easy one I can, we can fix by just moving the fund, the money one spot. So that. Has a little impact here. Part of it is the highway fund. You carry fund balance forward. And last year there was fund balance to carry forward and reduce taxes. And this year it's in the red. So. Starting off a little bit. I think we're going to have a little bit of fuel labor. A bit of everything. So we're starting off with a few challenges, but I think we make up for them. Okay. And really aside from taxes and the ARPA funds, there's not much on the revenue side to talk about for highway. The rest is pretty small and pretty comparable to prior years. If you go down to line 32, which is the pay, it's pretty small. So. Part of that is we gave the crew a raise in, I believe, November. That's part of a retention strategy and to keep up with all the other neighboring towns. And part of that assumes another 5% raise. If the budget's approved. And again, that's just to keep up with. What we're seeing in the market. And if you've got a CDL right now, it's, you know, you can see that the regular pay line. You see the budgeted 409. 10,000. And our actual was basically running on park. And that looks like everything is all right. But we had some vacancies. Yeah. And we should have had. In a, in a year we, where we didn't have to make.  We're, we're hopeful we can find a mechanic. Budgeted that at about three quarter salary. We're talking to someone now and hoping to get someone signed on. That would be full time. So that would increase that wouldn't impact this year because they wouldn't start till the center of the first quarter is over. So we'd be fine in 2023, but in 2024 we have a. A little bit of an extra job because of that. But I'm. I'm talking to, to Woody and Celia and Gary. I'm really convinced the mechanics of good investment. We've had a lot of people who traditionally had it and we thought about going to pay one way or the other. Mechanic can also drive and has a CDL. So when there's a big snow event, we've got that person there. Moving down to the second page. Couple of things I want to, I want to highlight. First one is small, but I just want to point it out. But line 52 is rent. It's been put here historically that. Through the, and it's just been put here, but. There's been a rent charge, which is funds paid to EFUD. But you now on the property. Going down. A little further that equipment maintenance line, which is line 58. Of 37 500. That's a little decline from last year. And part of that is. The mechanic part of that is that last year was really the high year. And we've got a. A truck that we sank a bunch of money into in 2022 to. Keep running and it's finally, finally hit its end. And then the other piece down in line 59 and vehicle maintenance. Budgeted as the same amount as last year. We were pretty good this year. And then right at the end, because we were pretty good in the budget, we. We spent about $10,000 and bought new tires for the greater, which needed them. It's originally envisioned as part of 2023, but. We were just able to execute in 2022 and make 2023 a bit easier. Yeah. We could get them. Yeah. Line 61. Yeah. Line 61 is diesel that one is what it is. I think it's a pretty reasonable number that assumes that we don't get worse. But that's, you know, 30. A third of a penny, I guess in the tax rate just for fuel. Line 72. Just want to point out salt. So that's level funding. Compared to last year's budget within the actual for this year. Salt is $88 a ton now. So. So, yeah, I had really wanted about 700 tons. But we massaged it a bit in part because we really haven't used it this year so far. Next week looks a little more like a normal winter in terms of the snow. And I guess right now. So we've been talking to, to Woody and talking to Celia. They've heard the message from the board over the years to try to conserve salt and use less. So we're going to try to do that. And we've been pretty lucky the first few weeks of January. While you're on that subject, I'll bring up. The incident that I just witnessed yesterday. Wasn't in this town is another town close by. Second, a big road. 90% bear. A few patches. Besides that one table in the middle. Every so often down the road. It were dumping salt on each and every one of them. Just blew my mind that they were in the temperature was going up. And I'm glad to see the salt reduction. But bear in mind, Chris, if the winter is really back loaded and we need to spend 55, we'll have to spend 55. Were you ever able to get in touch with the manager. No, I did not. It slipped my mind. It was a note I made, but I talked to him about other things, but not salt from Montreal. Well, just to begin with, was buffered from the institution. So they will pass by the lack of the bill bill. It comes in by rail. Yeah, because it gets it off of a barge. They have storage. That's part of our county. And then the other question is, and Chris doesn't want to hear this, but I feel like if you've human nature, if you've got a really large salt stockpile, it's, it's a bit easier to look at it and use it. And then you recognize. And I want to go down a little further line 76 gravel resurfacing so some of that is here. And it's here because I envision this budget as almost like the emergency gravel resurfacing that they've got to do in months. But that wine historically is not just materials, but we've historically. And last year was an example we rented an excavator for about $20,000 to help do some of that work. And so, when we get to the highway vehicles plan is to buy an excavator because we can essentially pay for itself in five years, which I think is a pretty good time. But is this the one where you budgeted 36 and the cost of 217. Yeah, but but if you look above in line 70, we had that emergency road repairs, which was the mud season. Okay, separately tracked. Oh, right. Yeah. And then line 83 is a big number. But the transfer so mechanically, taxes go to the highway fund and then the highway fund transfers funds to the capital funds. And Bill and I at an earlier meeting, and the board accepted the idea of consolidating the capital funds. Which we will do. In the interest of time, I'm, I'd really like to get it done in this budget but it might not just might not happen mechanically. But at a minimum, we'll work on that with the auditors to and have that in 2024 I'd like to do in 2023 but I just want to don't want 100% promise, but it's the way we think of them as a combined. I'm going to ask you a quick question anyone over my head there why is it down to 100,000. Just budgeting less this year. If you look at line 81 the debt. So the debt used to be in those capital funds. So we had to transfer more to those funds. So the debt now is here. Still down a little bit. If you add that one 6025 and 4732 which is interest so they got 165 and add that to the 190. It's pretty comfortable 755 so it's about $40,000 down from the last year. And I think the hope was because what you've been talking about the one pancreas. We've got infrastructure issues. I think the idea was if we can transfer the same capital funds without impacting the tax rate dramatically we'd still do that but right now. We're still working towards a particular tax rate. And right now it's $45,000 down in terms of the transfer. But there's that that's going away as well. Yeah, the paving that for us to have slept. Yeah. So in 2022, the debt that's going away in 2020. This year we started the budget in essence in the whole 95,000 because of the ARPA funds used next year we'll start to zero in 2025 about about 55,000 I believe in debt goes away. So we're not facing any headwind in the next few years. Onto the next page which is fun 70 the paving fund. I just want to talk about this in broad strokes so there's $405,000 going into here which would pay for the same amount of paving and for now we mimic the last year with class three and class two but there yet in terms of the paving plan mean, you know, what he can can talk with the contractors and give you $2 million in paving to do in a heartbeat, but the the intent for tonight I think is to endorse the amount the 405,000. And then he'll come back to you and in pretty soon I think in a couple months and he can break that $405,000 down into particular roads. One challenge we're working through internally is. And what do you get help me with the road names you've told me this 10 times by members bed but we, there's a waterline we'd like to repair. Yeah, just a main waterline. Yeah, so that you're getting a preview you're ahead of the EFUD commissioners but the EFUD budget for water will have a half million dollars to do that line. But the last we heard is if we order the pipe today what's the what's the time frame 40 weeks or so. Yeah, some sizes. So we'd really like to do that this calendar year but it may be difficult. Yeah supply chain issues. Right. Can we pay in November. So I don't know. I don't know what if we can't get the waterline done is there anything we can do this year to just improve the road a little bit. The waterline as design wouldn't necessarily affect a lot of Kennedy Drive so we could kind of be drives but Ashford Lane and we'll move about back there when we're going to destroy that. And I need a little bit of concern for them to put the traffic over the new part of the payment to fix. Yeah, so. I mean it's a terrible shape now. I don't know if we're going to get one year on it. When I think you know, either my first or second day bill drew me down that road. So this is a priority. So we're working on it. So what it would come to you with the bathing plan in a couple months. And you can massage it as desired. On the highway infrastructure fund. This is a lot of mean potatoes. There's some not in here but it won't impact the bottom line or taxes but still new information that I'm gathering but there's some leftover Main Street grant project. So it's grant funded so maybe as soon as Monday I'll have some different numbers in here related to that but it's doesn't impact any taxes. The big ask of the ARPA bridge projects. So I put that in the request to you. In part I had a conversation with Alec. I think I said a little bit before the meeting, but I want to give him kudos like I get in here every morning at usually five or 10 after eight and an allocus here waiting for me. Or what he needs, you know, he's the retired guy, but he's still showing up and every day I sit down and he educates me about something and so a few weeks ago he educated me about the bridges and he'd put together a bridge plan. Back in October that I sent out. Now talking to Woody $400,000 for those two bridges would have a pretty big impact on the capital budget, wherever we plugged it in it'd be it'd be enough that it have, you know pretty big one time impact on the tax rate, or we have to for a year sacrifice something like paving which I know no one wants to do so I feel like if we're talking about one time funds that are for one time uses. Those are life expectancy. Um, what was your bridges and quick again, I'm read drive bridge 33 was built in 1960. So that's still in service. So I went up on a couple road bridge number four was built in 53 or something like that. And so the bridges falling in right now, but there's 70 years. Yeah, so these completely. No, no it's that repair apply a membrane paint the beams to guard rail work and Alex said it's probably say. Yeah, this would be enough that you know I'd be retired by the time. These again. Number three that looks like it's a little shape. The little one right here. We've done a lot of work on that. Yeah. That's on the list of bridge. And that I believe Alex number for that bridge was much smaller. Yeah. So it's narrow. It just looks like it's degrading. But I may be wrong. Bridge quarter. I've always been a little confused as to what are going to be done when we do painting projects together. Well, you can sometimes bridge for. It's just a question of adding that static load to the bridge, the number of times. So, I guess looking long term here is your goal to six the bridges on the road and then that road. Before we drop that down a little bit and taper back both ways. So that when the paving ever happens. He'll run across there. So they won't. So, so they'll just blend to it instead of. Yeah, yeah, they'll fight to whatever the bridge. I read through the notes here. What's his name there. Oh, no, we got it. It's done the work in the past. Some of the work on bridge. So I think it's a great use of the arrow for money. Bridges, you know, that bridge 36 at the top of snow street coming up. That's state paint. We're just paying a small portion of that. Bridges are millions of dollars. We do a little bit. Keep them up. Now these dollars doesn't follow us. I mean, you're saving the interest on having. So we're paid more by a higher tax rate than there would be any interest, but if you had to bond for it. You can certainly bond for it and it's $400,000. You wouldn't need to. You could bond for it over 20 years, but it wouldn't have that big an impact if you did shorter. But I think. Why pay interest. The cash is here. So.  So we're paid more by a higher tax rate than there wouldn't be any interest. But if you had to bond for it. You can certainly bond for it. And it's $400,000. You wouldn't need to. You could bond for it over 20 years, but it wouldn't have that big an impact if you did shorter. So. You could bond for it over 20 years. But I think the cash is here. And so. Of all the, of all the projects I've been confronted with and the concepts. I think. Quite frankly, the bridges are the best. No offense to downstream or any other priorities. But I think it's a really good use of. Take this liability off the box for. Perceivable future. And then I just want to talk about the. The gravel resurfacing. So. I put it here because it's conceptually a little bit different. Not that the town has never fully resurfaced gravel roads, but this is. You know, in essence some activation, but down new roads have it material. I guess it's an acknowledgement in my mind that. Winters in general are going to be warmer and that means more free stall cycles and these roads will take a bit more maintenance. Can't afford to pay them all. So I'm, so my thought was to. In essence, in a small way pivot. And create the line here. And then. Ideally each year grow it a bit. In the same way, we will try to grow the payment budget. So in year one, I proposed to fund half of it with our. To get us started. 30 of ARPA and 30 of town money. And then. We talked about internally sweet road initially and.  And so. Similar to the paving where we bring you a plan later in the year. I think the concept is to. Get through mud season and that might give us some new information about what needs to be done. And maybe it's not all one road. From talking to Celia and Woody. We don't want to, you know, you have a cost issue. If you try to spread this out in 10 different places, you want to be linear. But really mud season might. Redetermine your priorities a bit. So not asking for you to endorse sweet road or Perry Hill road today, but the. The funding, the concept to think about. Yeah. Yeah. So hopefully we could chip away at that and. Just make some school progress. And then you'll see the sweet road quarry. That's town funds on ARPA funds. So. I've got our attorney Joe McClain working on in essence, a legal slash permitting roadmap. As to. What are the steps we'd have to take assuming the state. Is interested in either. Giving us that property or we sing it. Woody is met with McCullough, I believe. And visit the site. So we're trying to work on some. Estimate of yard or cubic yards of rabble that are, that's there to be crushed. And from that we can. In essence, build a performer and build a plan and build a feasibility plan. So that's what that $20,000 is for. It's really for professional services, but the concept would be. Assuming the state and there's right now, I don't believe there's a department head of forest and parks. I know we just retired. So I don't think the governor's appointed yet. But assuming. Yeah, but I don't think an acting director is going to. A huge amount of interest. But assuming the state gives us some. Is willing to sit down and we have, we can develop some sort of a plan and assuming. That Joe McClain. Can give us some understanding of the legal hurdles, how, how they are, how costly they are. And then we can go back to the federal government. And we can get back to the federal government. And then we can go back to the federal government. And then we can go back to the federal government. And then we can go back to the federal government. I guess I was assuming that the pro forma. Makes sense. Then we can come back to you. At some point, I hope later this year, but it's going to take some time to get there. And we can come back to you and say. We think there's X number of yards of. Good gravel here for our purposes central to our. We think you should either hit the green light or not. And. Go from there. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Tom, I think that. I'm very much in favor. Of the quarry project. Can you try again? Better. Good job. Good job. Hey, Mike. Yeah. Try. Try muting your zoom and calling my cell phone and I'll put you on speaker. I'm missing something. I'm sure. But I've seen 495. It should be 465. What? Where's that? So my, my issue. Let me get Mike. Mike, you there. Using the phone versus. Yeah. I'm missing something. I'm sure. But I'm seeing 495. Yeah. So am I missing something? No, I made it. I'll adjust that. Well, so then 495. It should be 465. What? Where's that? So my, my issue. Why is that? I'm not trying. I'm seeing that the issue is the. What? The 495. That's the issue. I'm trying to get pictures by. It's created a lot more challenges, but my question is much as I am a firm believer in this potential quarry project. I assume that's going to have to go through a full act. He flipped you. No necessarily, Mike. When that standing top to me about it. There's some. Eight years ago, you said. Good part about it. Is great. was yesterday. I think regardless the step that Tom is proposing we got a permitting road map seems like a great step.  No I think I'm just because I know if we get into an active 50 I think that's gonna you know with especially with we know all few neighbors who are going to be pretty belligerent about this whole thing you know this could get into a very expensive project. Sure. Just my thoughts. Thanks. Thank you. Yeah so look at that. Yeah so this is this is a Tom lights 1130 at night issue and talking to Alec about contingencies so I'm actually asking for Alex number was 403 for the roads and bridges but that was an October of 2022 number and so with some additional contention for those for those two bridges so with some additional contingency the final number will be a bit more so that so 435 for the bridges and then 30 for the 30 for the road and one of the other challenge with the bridges is and Woody can speak to this is that the bridges may not be a 2023 project and maybe they will be. Yeah we now spoke with the contractor we use George Austin and it might be it might not we meet again with the next and we may have a fine tune number. There's no materials or anything that are long long need times it's all simple concrete and membranes and work. Yes yeah so there's a chance you know of course he's tapping almost but yeah there's advances here we'll see we'll know more next year. Yeah so so those are the big conceptual numbers and I can fine tune that for Monday. He took a sample of the rock with him he said it is his experience the rock appears to be very hard very hard rock very abrasive which is good and bad and that it's good material but it cost you more to crush it. Yes yes yeah so pretty cool. Yeah yeah it's technically a calcareous greenstone with port site glass so and I confirmed that with a geologist not that I trust red but it was nice to get a second opinion on that and he confirmed the same thing hard stone very abrasive he thought there's a lot of material there you know getting in there they overburden off blasting if you have to the proximity of the neighbor's houses. The Ethan water source right across the road. Yeah you know but he said you know place that has been stones worth money you know so and he see if he didn't treat by it.  Have you seen any ideas of how they bust that up? Yeah they probably have not tried to rock hammer it and see if they could make it into a manageable size. Take it from there. It would only be worth this while if he came in for say 10 to 15,000 yards or so we've been here for a year and how many years we did that might be up to I guess how much we want to use. What do you want me to go for? We would go for that. The only thing he's going to make for us is he's just going to make a piece of stone or make a plant mix but he's on the road so we wouldn't have a problem with what he did to get him in there for 10 or 15,000 yards. We wouldn't have a problem with that. We will say how long it takes to make it. Yeah we could do 10 to 15,000 yards in thanks in four or five weeks of work. Yeah yeah yeah that's a good question. I think the general hope here is to just tell you at some point this year are the hurdles and surmountable. If they're if they're not what's the cost to get over them? That was like the best source of aggregate. And then moving on to highway vehicles. A couple significant items here to talk about. The first one is actually towards the bottom of the page and that's the excavator. It's part of the gravel road strategy that we've rented an excavator and spent around $20,000 the last two years so to buy it for less than a hundred seems like a pretty sound investment. So the budget? No. We've always had one. It's a second one. We've always had one. I don't know how many hours that one has on and off hand. I don't think it's old Woody. No. The one that we got now. That's a Volvo company. Yes. And yeah and it is old. No it's just the three years. Yeah. It's both of them so why once a second? Because we've been we've been renting one during the summer. No I didn't get that. And part of it's I didn't budget for this. I wanted to we monitor the actuals but if EFUD uses it of course they'll pay their fair share for it. So does that mean we're going to have an additional person allowed to operate it? That's a different conversation. Yeah okay. So the proposal would be to pay cash for that and then there's the above that there's the one ton dump truck for $140,000 so that's not a that's a replacement plan a standard replacement plan. And the reality is in 2022 we ordered the truck for $110,000 and we'll pay for it in 2023 when it actually arrives we hope. And in 2023 we we've already ordered this truck for $140,000. We'd pay for it essentially when it would arrive in 2024 and the reason we ordered it is because there's such a long lead time and if the budget's not approved the vendor will have no problem selling it so there's no liability to us to say sorry voters didn't approve it in town meeting day. This reef time has been growing. We used to be you know we would go to buy a truck at town meeting and we could have the truck by June the line and even before COVID it was starting to be well and get the select board to optimize the just the full town meeting because it's going to take X amount of time and we might get it by November and we started doing that and now it's moving by these vehicles and 12 or 15 months go by together. So it's really put a whole different standard on that you know we've got vehicles that we plan six or seven year life for and then you go ahead and buy it but another year and a half those we're having to rework the whole schedule. It's challenging. One more question for getting you know an idea how many tonne that excavators. It's similar in size to the one we have now. That's going to be a lot. The other thing I want to point out in the highway budget and meeting with Celia and Woody the detail they gave me behind you know each budget line at them they had just spreadsheet upon spreadsheet and so and working in other places and being in this business for a while that's just the most particular best work I've I've ever seen on that side of things so I really need to commend them for for that you know when you when you ask when you ask them for a budget you know there's a $10,000 line that we see but behind it you know they've got everything that adds up to that in just extreme detail so it was great. Well and then a small thing I just want to point out here and you'll see this on Monday the cemetery we talked we spent some time with them talking about a vehicle and we settled and they would pay for it with a transfer but we settled on in essence these they call them side by sides but these gators with a dump head that that they would use for maintaining cemeteries and doing some light work and they're about $15,000 it's not a super fancy big vehicle but that's a purchase they push for so they they're actually transferring money into into here a few thousand dollars we just paid off over a few years I wouldn't and that'd be an internal loan with probably the tax stabilization fund I would normally just tell them to pay for it um since they've got their own funds but like everything else the market's down so maybe if the market recovers next year I'll tell them well you know your your funds grew so let's just pay it off and be done with it but for now it's just finance over a few years so that's the the highway and the equipment highlights hold on or close to that we have a library but oh go ahead so I'll present the library but that's fine no I wanted I don't want to take up anybody's too much of anybody's time um that's pretty excellent um no I wanted to speak about MLK Day as you may or may not know we work under about a 30-plus year old personnel policy here we do not get and as employees we do not get MLK Day off and I was somewhat in the in the world now um MLK Day has been a federal holiday since Reagan was president in Reagan was president somewhere yeah and Vermont recognizes it as the holiday and I think when you folks defer your meeting from MLK Day I think that said something to me that in deference to the holiday going to treat it as a holiday um I loosely kept track of who came in the office on Monday and it was two um two yeah two two two yes yes so um I think um I just wanted to get that out if you want to ask Bill Shackle, how many times I've asked him when the personnel policy was done, you don't know where I'm doing it, the answer is the same but it's it's all ready here so no no but when you folks defer your meeting Thursday night and I said to myself somebody said to me you know what's good for the goose it's good for the gander and the few people at the booths on the gander so I think one of the lists of the movement to say we're highly aware and sorry and actively trying to do our best but it's being worked it's actively being worked on obviously you're a hundred percent correct and hopefully that is the job yeah and you know the there's a chance you're highway guys if you want to work in MLK Day but it can be and you're right and sometimes there are exceptions but it's uh it's being actively worked on and you're absolutely right do we expect for the best left or do we want to go there's one section that's so between now and then meeting that that's what you want no I don't want to hold anybody I just um yeah I was just closing this is Monday and then I went oh well the truth be told I was what I was Friday afternoon I was talking to Karen and I was saying you know well well well you know let's finalize the meeting the agenda now for the for the Thursday meeting um just thinking we were close and she said well I'll be here Monday to finalize it and I said oh you're not you're not taking the day off she said no we're open and I said I didn't know that so veteran stay yeah so yeah well you can find what you want yeah skip send an email on what they was at um Tuesday I think so and said uh said uh I had no idea you guys were didn't have the MLP day off and during our hiring process we've met with a lot of folks and I'm not like yeah we get 14 holidays a year or 10 and it's not a number of days it's the spirit of the holiday and yeah it's supposed to be thank you all right thank you for walking trust me salt down for us yep sure um do you want to go back to the library a bunch of sure um so couple thank you couple significant items here um the first is incurring your taxes which is really the number that should matter to you and I would tell you that if whether it's this year or some future year if you ever tell me that the tax rate is too high I wouldn't advise you to line by line say cut this cut that I'd advise you to tell me to say here's what we need to get to and I would go back to the budget and the library and other organizations um but the library this year has a six percent increase in the taxes they're asking for from town taxpayers um part of that is the fund balance issue similar to highway last year the library had about fifteen thousand dollars in funds to carry over and this year it's essentially zero which is what we budget and then we budget to use the funds that's that's how you do it that's how you're supposed to do it so it's not an essence one-time funds it should you have a surplus you use it um and then the other piece is the pay is up for the library um that assumes that the five percent raise for employees on April 1st and then there also there's an employee that is uh 35 hours a week that they're seeking to increase I think the 37 and a half but it that adds up um the library has been a little bit of a different world when it comes to attracting staff and that they haven't had the challenges town has had it seems like library staff in general um it's uh seems to be a robust labor market it's the best way to put it um you know that being said you know Stowe is advertising for an assistant director and guess what makes more than our director so we've got to keep up I think um and I also just my experience as someone who's borrowed a bunch of books already it's a pretty awesome library really welcoming environment when you go there um and that's really where the action is in the payroll numbers if you look down um there's nothing else huge in fact there's a reduction to the mbo left the municipal building operations fund and that's because the debt is down a little bit and some expenses are down a little bit but really um there's some increase some overall increase in spending and a part of it is that there's less money to carry over um you know but in general I think it's a pretty good defensible budget the library also has um its own investment fund its own endowment in essence and that's an excess of a half million dollars um so every and there's and there's there's that endowment and then there's a secondary room yeah bottom line at the top from the trust fund so the library has some resources for the future so they're in a pretty good financial position overall so why does the five percent raise because in addition to that there's the staff person that they're ending hours too so that that's what gets you there overall I don't know if there were other raises during the course of 2022 that were not budgeted um no I mean make that we could make a slight adjustment for everybody at one point so and they and they had a similar situation in that their 2022 budget and their actual is pretty much spot-on that they have some basic needs but because it will raise the year um you know kind of eat all that vacancy yeah and the other piece they're seeing which is great is and I think this is a bit of a statewide trend is that um libraries have gotten more popular lately which is a great thing but their their memberships are up and you see that even in the the non-resident fees which are up and that's just more people from out of town paying their dues there's one kind of wild kind right now well the person that just hired just left right how many hours a week was that not very many okay so in the library um there are three people that are eligible for health insurance but only one case which you know so that that's a nominal money but in the past we've had one of those people who didn't take it they leave the year then you hire a new person and they do take it so you know that line is uh it's kind of a volatile line the three people that are in those positions right now I think are pretty solid in there unless there's some major family of that I don't see anything leaving but that is a little bit of a tricky line compared to town yeah and the other thing I see working in this building there's just a lot of vibrancy in there there's all sorts of activities in the evening which is great to see and then they have um they have a program um teenagers and they actually get a fair number of teenagers in here a lot of days after school which astounds me that that's a demographic that strikes me is really tough to get into a library so I I think they're doing good work just want to be a little conservative on the revenue side and that's it for the for the library budget answers any questions so the tentative plan for Monday is that I will have in front of you the the few dangling participles um you haven't seen the cemetery uh which is not a huge number um I think the cemetery is $15,000 in property taxes going into it and then we haven't talked about the health budget which oh sorry um let me just finish the thought really so there's there's the health budget which would which had that community service officer in this current year but those are fairly minimal and then I'll present to you um any significant items that have had to sort of get tweaked as we've gone on and we're new information which is not really much at all and then we'll have the tax rate and and hopefully um and then the review of the um all the small things that go in the warning the the thousand dollars a year thousand dollars there um we haven't heard any new information from anyone except in the senior center accepting the road rate request uh I've not heard anything no I I I do think that there are $25,000 for the commercial kitchen is vastly understated just my opinion but I don't think I can remodel my kitchen for $25,000 so a commercial kitchen equipment I think is at least double that is my guess I don't you might have a better opinion well speaking of that um I did touch base with a friend of mine who's probably one of the most qualified contractors on this area he built most of the houses and the last subcommittee I had I went to our mansion I asked him if he had any interest in uh pursuing that estimate for that for the senior center and he said he wanted to do it good so he was supposed to be giving me his contact information for the people that would supply the kitchen itself and uh in fact I'm not sending the text here at my point I've heard from a guy maybe he's already contacted it but most of the people get back in touch with him so that I can hook them up forward okay please use some type of an estimate for that okay so between Monday's meeting we'll have in essence we'll pull it all together and then hopefully we'll finish Monday the goal will be to finish it and and based on that we'll we'll be able to write the warning so in the 30th well goes well you won't you'll be proving the warning and hopefully not doing a whole lot of other work okay there we have are you thinking of budgeting anything for the uh my senator um projected funds they have not made a request um well you're talking about when the sub yeah starting oh sorry recreation no not yet um I think we're we're it's not quite done and we and we had some new information today that impacts the road just just to say differently one thing I mentioned the and on that I want to see some of the projects report is that we do did approve transfer to the recreation to the IP which obviously is for recreation projects but in the past there is some funding sources for specifically out for recreation projects which we don't apply for them unsuccessfully but we've been able to say we have money you know in the raxi I believe that you know you're going to set anything on something we consider that and and some of the some of the conceptual plans in essence in essence have us building fields and that doesn't strike me as something that's going to require a ton of money but I appreciate your point on that you do now it's coming soon I guess that's I pushed on me this part of the raxi is where I thought I'd like parking in so sweet but um okay that was cool and I'll I'll have that for everyone at the next meeting but and that's and part of that is because if it is meeting tomorrow um and then I I guess I think we're on the Karen's item that's we're ready 6.7 left 6.7 left here I think here's about 6.7 and the property taxes she's uh she's uh unmuted are you waiting for me I'm sorry no we weren't waiting now we are now ready for you okay um I would like to ask the board if you would be willing to consider placing an article on the warning at this year's town meeting to change the term for town clerk and treasurer from a one-year term to a three-year term so the the voters would be asked to change it this year for the following year this year than yes for the following yeah so she's running she's running from one year this year and then the voters would approve a three-year term for the following what they've asked the last one's I'm at full support I'm not allowed but there's other questions she's with it uh well I don't think it was the entire time Karla was here was there any but ever anybody that proposed it no one in that position anybody that ran against her yeah and Mike has his hand raised Mike I'm gonna call you and quick so you'll be on speakerphone Mike this works better because after the last phone call I almost lost all audio so let's hope that doesn't happen again very much a favor I know I have spoken to Aaron about this this week and I think it's just it's just something that we've always done it's been a one-year term but just you know it takes the burden off the tongue to get voters signatures and I think the reason why it's always been a one-year term is this because the town clerk is not doing a good job they're going to you know if there's a chance to vote that person out you know I have no confidence in Aaron and I think that uh you know if she's not been doing the job you know the job properly you know that's up to select board to basically you know what the terminator agreement would probably be thanks Mike thanks Mike um any other discussion or question otherwise we can change the motion yeah I would support the caring request that's my motion yes I would need to leave that there in the first outside any further discussion I just know how hard it is for you all in favor hi hi thank you so you're locked in the waiting room are we do you need to revisit this sound meetings discussion I've already had some thoughts and have the conversation out loud so where it works so you can go straight to my default certified yeah that's what I'm going to do thank you uh that said I will move to adjourns so thank you Karen thank you drive careful get well Mike