any further ado I am really psyched to have the TIA folks here and Jaya who has been working with TIA to talk about policy management and how they're leveraging that in their cloud security services our ADNA thank you very much for your patience with our process and everybody in the audience please take it away introduce yourselves and I will go off camera for now. Thank you Diane good afternoon all my name is the Radna Chital I am senior director execs of cloud security at TIA I'm also co-chair for CNCF tax security and cloud security alliance server last working group Jaya. Thank you Aradhana for joining this session. Hi everyone I'm Jaya Ramanathan I'm the chief security and governance architect within Red Hat and also a distinguished engineer my passion right now is policy based governance and policy management and such which is what we're going to talk about today. Go ahead Aradhana. Sure so let's step back and look at an enterprise today especially a regulated financial enterprise we have some traditional applications right every regulated entity or traditional enterprise has all those applications which have grown over time and then they have cloud platforms possibly multi-cloud every enterprises multi-cloud literally now and then there are efforts going on where you have to refactor your traditional applications into containers so you can increase the velocity of deployment at the same time there are challenges from a security and compliance perspective because you have all these different flavors of cloud platforms and container platforms and your traditional enterprise IT where the existing tools may not work in another cloud environment or may not work in a container platform so the the retooling of all the security controls etc is quite an amount of work and a challenge and then having security seamlessly deployed with consistent policies across your IT estate is another big challenge for enterprises today and let's talk about regulatory compliance and not only do we have internal auditors that is the second and third line of defense who are auditing our environments constantly and identifying any gaps or risks that we need to mitigate but then we have external entities like OCC and FRBV and all those entities who want to look at our platforms and making sure that we are meeting all the regulatory compliance that we need to meet so that was an overview of any any traditional financial organization or any regulated body and we are no different at TIAA so we are also multi-cloud we have leverage open-shift as our on-prem private cloud where we are using it as a playground for our developers to go ahead and refactor our enterprise applications into microservices so we can do digital transformation at the same time achieve the velocity of deployment right because financial applications they change very quickly to meet the customer needs so we need these applications to be microservices we today today it's a private cloud but we are looking to a future roadmap item where we will be hybrid open-shift cloud platform as well container platform so roughly we have about 42 clusters about 750 odd applications which are contained right now running in an open-shift platform the main features of open-shift that we are using are we recently migrated to 4.7 which provides CoraOS as the operating system and it can be deployed on bare metal so we wanted to get the cost efficiencies and that you can get with deployment on bare metal at the same time we wanted automation of configurations and policies that can be deployed on our container platform across the state and use Istio you know to build micro segmentation between applications as another layer of defense so we can reduce our attack surface and give developers the freedom to go do their development and explore changes within their own little micro segment so that that is pretty much a high level summary of what we use open-shift for today and what our journey has been for open-shift thank you over to you Jaya thank you Aradhana so I think as Aradhana highlighted right if you look at any customer who is adopting cloud they are typically moving toward a hybrid model and they also have to meet various enterprise standards both internal as well as external regulatory compliance and so on so then if you think about how customers are achieving these goals right they have to worry about every layer of the stack so they have to start at the operating system level then the container platform then the middleware then their applications and typically you know they have to make sure that all these layers are configured properly to meet their enterprise standards and external regulatory compliance requirements and also successfully pass audits so really if you think about a person who is managing this environment right the side reliability engineer or the ops person they are really not experts in every aspect of even security or resiliency or software engineering and if you consider all those aspects that a customer needs to think about they are not experts in everything right so the idea here is in order for them to really meet all these requirements and do it in a cost effective manner really what needs to happen is we need to make this easy for them using automation and tools right and and the way to make it easy is to codify those best practices policies and manage policies just like you'd manage source code so that's the whole premise behind policy based governance so from a red hat point of view this is an initiative that we have been pushing for a while and we have this capability available today as part of our red hat advanced cluster management for Kubernetes product offering it is also available in our red hat open shift plus bundle which bundles ACM and also includes advanced cluster security which is a recent acquisition of stack rocks which is now rebranded as ACS and quay so this policy based governance capability is available through these product offerings and I also have links here on various blogs we have on this topic as well as we also have a CNCF Sandpack project submitted for this as well that is slated to be reviewed in November this year so let me highlight a little bit about what are the key capabilities of policy based governance what are the things you need first if you think about any customer including TIA right they're not just managing one cluster they're typically managing multi cluster so really your policy management approach has to be multi cluster and if you look at some of the community policy engines that are out there like gatekeeper cover and so on they are single cluster engines which are very powerful in their own right but really what we want to do is to enable a multi cluster framework that allows you to shift policies to all those engines and manage them in a scalable manner secondly the policy framework has to be extensible because I don't think we are going to have one policy language policy engine agreed upon across the planet right so they're going to be multiple so you need a policy framework that can integrate multiple policy engines so that's very important and that's what we have in ACM and that allows you to integrate with both red hat and third party policy enforcement points and these policy enforcement points could be examples of the open shift compliance operator which comes as part of open shift ACS which is the Advanced Cluster Security Strat Cross product it could be you know third party vendors such as CISDAG and and also community technologies like you were known gatekeeper etc the third thing is as I mentioned earlier you need this policy based governance applied across the entire stack across all the controls so that definitely requires a collaborative development of best practices and policies so an upstream active extreme community is very important and we started one in the policy collection repo and one of the things we're also looking at in the Kubernetes policy workgroup that both Aradhana and I are part of is to bring that to that workgroup and you know foster more industry collaboration in that in their space so here's the overall architecture so you have the management hub this is the central multi cluster management hub that allows you to manage all the different managed clusters so policies get deployed here and the policies can be either authored through UI or CLI or GitOps GitOps is the preferred methodology because then you manage policies just like you might source code and then the policies get deployed to manage clusters based on a concept or placement the placement could be based on various criteria so you could say for example you could assign labels to your clusters for production and development and say you know apply all these policies to my dev clusters or all all these policies to my prod clusters or you could also have uh application of policies based on the type of cluster whether you know whether it's an open ship cluster running on amazon versus open ship cluster running on google etc so on the managed clusters you have various policy enforcement points and these um provide one or more controls and these technical controls then map to compliance standards as listed here so that's the whole idea here and then on the right hand side we are integrating with traditional enterprise um IT tools whether it is for instant management or enterprise governance system compliance tools or uh sims for security operation center so because like Arthur pointed out um customers are looking at adopting um container platforms as an extension to the existing IT infrastructure right so their existing IT infrastructure as well as IT processes and tools are things that you see on the right hand side and we want to make sure that as they adopt cloud they can easily integrate with those as well so i'm going to take a few minutes to just do a quick demo uh just to give you a flavor of how these things work so here is the console for the acm uh product and uh so you can see that the acm product provides various capabilities it provides cluster lifecycle which allows you to provision clusters as well as discover clusters and bring it uh into acm for management it has uh end to end visibility which is observability layer that allows you to monitor the performance characteristics compliance characteristics etc it has an application lifecycle that allows you to define applications and then deploy them across a set of clusters and also easily move up move pieces of the app as needed and it has this governance risk and compliance piece which is the one i'm going to focus on so in the governance uh compliance please when you go to this panel what you see here is at the top you see a summary view the summary view is based on the various standards so when you define a policy the acm you can say which standards it applies to and policy can apply to multiple standards both internal and external so that's what you're seeing here and then we have a set of policies defined here and you can see that we have policies for a wide variety of controls so we have policies to and for it's the encryption policies to deploy various enforcement points like gatekeeper the compliance operator as well as qerno and we also have policies that gatekeeper can enforce as well as qerno can enforce as well in addition we have policies for checking on certificate expiration for example etc now the open shift compliance operator which is a single cluster feature that comes as part of open shift allows you to specify various security profiles and you can it will then do checks on the managed cluster for those profiles so here is an example so cis is one security profile it supports and you can see that we have used acm to configure the compliance operator to this security profile and then it can return results which you can view centrally from acm and you can see that it returns back all for all the rules it checks the things that are not compliant it can return back those results the other thing I wanted to highlight here is when you look at the various policies they can be deployed either in enforce mode or in form mode enforce mode is basically the policy will drive the configuration to the desired state that is specified in the policy whereas in inform mode it is more an audit kind of mode where if the policy is not compliant it's just going to flag a violation so here as an example the certificate policy we have set it in inform mode so in that case when the violation occurs one of the things you can also do is you can configure automation so in this case this automation is specifying an ansible playbook and this ansible playbook is generating a slack notification so by doing this we are able to trigger notifications this is the in the architecture chart I showed you on the right hand side where we can integrate with enterprise processes so for policy violations now you can generate you can open tickets for example we also have integration with service now or you can generate a slack message this then allows you to action those things per the enterprise processes so this is what I refer to as automated governance so not only can you trigger automation to get to the desired configuration state for the controls by deploying policies in enforce mode you can also do the same thing using automation that you're defined with a policy in inform mode and that allows you to also ensure that you are complying to the enterprise id processes let me just quickly highlight one more thing and before I turn it back to Aradhana so one of the things you see here is the advanced managed cluster security as well as the advanced advanced cluster security operator these are the components of the advanced cluster security which is the stack rock acquisition so you can see that we can actually use ACM to actually deploy the stack rock central component as well as the stack rocks individual agents on the stack rock clusters and you can see that the cluster names here are exactly the same names that ACM knows about because ACM is basically determining the inventory and then it is ensuring that stack rocks is it placed on those clusters and so the as I mentioned earlier the open shift bundle open shift plus bundle includes ACM ACS it also includes quay and you can see here we also have integration with quay from ACM where we can use this policy the image manifest vulnerability policy to detect vulnerabilities from quay so so that's kind of a little demo and then let me conclude by showing you our GitHub so this is the policy collection repo where we have policies both in the stable and community folders and we also have a lot of blogs that you can go and read about back to you Aradhana can you hear me and Aradhana seems to have dropped so if you could go back to the slides Jaya sorry about that she's we've had some little technical snafus and you may have to talk through the slides for not sure whether she ran out of time because I know she's a very very busy person um so yeah I can definitely talk to this so the rest of the presentation we were planning to focus on the work that we are doing in the Kubernetes policy work group that both Aradhana and I are part of as well as a few others so this in this work group we are focused on two efforts in recent times one is this policy report custom resource definition so this is a standard that we have defined for returning policy violations and this is supported by multiple enforcement points such as the file cooperator the Q and O policy engine etc so this allows from a management point of view a standard way to be able to collate the results and then integrate with enterprise tools the second work piece of work that we are focused on is the Kubernetes policy management white paper and so we we had published it out there for review received a bunch of comments if i've incorporated all those comments and now we are ready to commit the papers so you can actually see it here um this is the policy management white paper um so that is another really good effort from this work group um and then the other thing I wanted to point out is that we have a policy management panel coming up tomorrow um in um in this conference in the conference that Aradhana and I will be part of as well as Jim and Robert as well uh please join us there uh so we can continue the discussion in terms of uh the what why and how policy management for Kubernetes Dan I don't know how much time I have at this point so at this point um we have hit the end of your half an hour um considering all of our wonderful snafus okay and technical things so we're going to ask our next speaker to join us um it was John Fortin and so um thank you Jaya and please um thank Aradhana for um for taking time today as well um if you can stay around in um hop in for a few minutes um Jaya um there may be some questions there and just um maybe add the links in hop in to um your events that are happening for the rest of the week of Kukan so if people want to join there um and come to those that will be great awesome sounds good thank you very much for the opportunity here thank you


It is officially move out day and my friends are having like a little mini beach trip.  Hey guys. Happy Saturday. It is officially move out day Like this is the last day. I gotta go buy like new niche and it is 11 right now I don't have that much more stuff to like pack up I just have some stuff that I have to take to my storage unit And then just like some stuff. I need to put in my car. My car is literally Packed right now and I really like tried really really hard not to make it packed But it sucks because I have to take like home all my winter clothes and like I want to leave it there You know and like I feel like next year I shouldn't even like bring it back because it never even gets that cold and I end up bringing like 15 sweaters that Take up so much room in my closet I'm really not sure when the last time I vlogged was but I got hair cut and I mean some people are like it's not even that short and like yeah It's really not that short but to me. I feel like I say that every time, but I got like a lot of layers And if you guys are in the UCF area, I Go to Floyd's and I go to a girl named in a coal She actually just transferred to the newer Floyd's in Oviedo And I got half off my haircut because it's like new and they're having like a grand opening So it's like literally a $15 haircut and it's so like it's so nice. All right I'm gonna get back to packing. I just have a few more things to go and then I'm done So I'm gonna get to it I just went to my storage unit and I did my last load there, but my car is like Insanely full. I still need to like trash some things and like the passenger seat I just like threw everything that was in my car like there before I started putting stuff in But I'm actually leaving Orlando at 2 o'clock to go to St. Augustine because me and my friends are having like a little mini beach trip Before we like part ways for the summer. So I'm really really excited for that. Hey guys It is 2 40 p.m. And I'm officially driving to St. Augustine. Hey guys, I have about 10 minutes left in my drive I'm actually gonna go to Kaylin's house so we can carpool to Charlotte's house Charlotte's dad is having like a derby day like bourbon tasting kind of party And I'm really excited because now that I'm 21 I want to try every single drink that there is to try Including a mint julep and I guess that's made with bourbon which doesn't sound like it would be right like it sounds more like refreshing I don't know not like a hard like brown liquor But I'm very excited to try it because I definitely want to have like a bucket list of drinks I need to try within this year and hopefully I'll find something I like I'd rather have like my Mojito's version and like my pita-guana's version I honestly think they taste a lot better obviously, but I'm trying to adult here So hopefully it tastes good. I'm like Megan now We just changed at Kaylin's and I forgot my camera So we had to go back and get it but now we are on our way to Charlotte's and we're gonna go to the derby party Me and Kaylin are straight matching I should have I should have picked something else I don't have many options. I like to be matching. It's so cute. We're cute.  It's just so perfect, you know this view. Yeah I know it looks so like America. Yeah Yeah Towards the back Door Yeah, yeah, it's beach time Hey guys, it is May 6th.  I'm like going all up in my head, but It's so pretty we're about to get groceries Oh Look how cute this is and we got strawberry daiquiri one Pretty the sunset is All right, it's red bucks time guys.  We are starting the day off by making breakfast. We're gonna make some What's this this quick? This quick pancakes. Oh, this is the street is where we are Again, which isn't like too bad. This is our outfit Want to do a little outfit of the day. I got the shirt from Tillie's I got the skirt from Lulu's and The shoes are the same I'm pretty sure I got this romper at Henry girl on like a liquidation sale sale these sunglasses. Oh These sunglasses are key sunglasses and then the shoes are the same Lauren Conrad little patent leather kind of things Unfortunately, I don't think I'm gonna bring my camera in because I don't think they'll allow it But it's okay. I'll try to get like a lot of so we'll be good Your face Oh, we need to put on lipstick by Kailin's condominium We are gonna go to Kailin's hometown best friend's house and then we're gonna go to TPC and It's me and Megan's first time going to TPC. So we don't really know what to expect Apparently Kailin and Charlotte's like whole senior class is gonna be there. So that will be very interesting Did you get my bug spray? That's where I got eaten for like 2.2 seconds. What should I expect for TPC? We're gonna see everyone wait. I have a question for Charlotte. What is TPC Sam for? The players champion shirt? Nice Oh, I said what did I say? The conference. No, we said the tournament players Like course or yeah, yeah, yeah, she's like course. No, it's at Sawgrass like the golf course is called Sawgrass It's really nice. I got to play there once. Oh Not really. Charlotte played golf in high school. I Never played in college. The first time I was in the team. My coach asked me one time and I said I don't feel comfortable with that Just getting my dog fixin Guys, I'm afraid if I don't eat my sandwich, I'm gonna be starving Oh, it's a video? So you've been to TPC and you have too. I've never been actually Wait, are you serious? I did go last year when you guys went. You're dedicated So you saw like Sam Hunt and everyone like that? Yeah, did you see Sam Hunt here? Okay, true.  I wore flats, so Pro tip give Sonali an hour for pictures. Don't get here late I said an hour for pics and no one listened to me and now Sonali wants to take an hour of pics And who's surprised? Not this girl Not me. Pro tip. This was eight dollars I'll let you make your own pro tip from that The dress keys today, which is so fun and this was like literally so unplanned Unless you like no Like I walked out and then Kailin's wearing a black swimsuit to it. So cute I bought this little waterproof necklace for spring break and I never got to use it today It's coming in handy


All right, here we go.  One of the best ways to do it is with high intensity interval training, but hold on, hold on, don't leave just yet. You're probably doing it wrong. Everybody does it wrong. So in today's episode, we talk all about the ways to do it right, the reasons why a lot of people do it wrong. Also, I'm giving away our version of hit training maps it. Of course, this is hit training done right because we wrote it and we know what we're doing. So here's how you can win free access to maps hit. Leave a comment below in the first 24 hours that we drop this episode. Subscribe to this channel and turn on your notifications. Got to do all those things. If we like your comment, we'll notify you and you'll get free access to map set. Also, we're going to do a sale on maps hit because that's what we talk about in today's episode. So we're going to put it as 50% off. So very short sale. We'll do it maybe for a little while, but it will end. So it's 50% off maps hit. Here's how you can get that half off. Go to maps hit.com. That's M-A-P-S-H-I-I-T dot com and then use the code. Let's see here. Oh, there it is. Hit 2022. So H-I-I-T two zero two two for that 50% off discount. So there you go. Enjoy the show.  Do you guys want to guess what's on there? It's been on there probably for the last five years as the next, you know, big fitness trend or here's where we're going to see lots of growth and excitement. You guys want to guess? Yeah. Has it changed at all? Is it the same exact thing? There's one thing. Okay. Skip it in particular. What? Skip it. What's that? Skip it. You don't remember skip it? I do. Skip it. Skip it. Yeah. Yeah. That was brilliant. I remember that. I don't know why I even brought that back, dude. Have you ever tried it? Huh? Yeah. No, it was legit. Did you like it? Yeah. I loved it as a kid. No, I remember. I remember. Dude, no, I didn't have to skip it. Yes, I did. You made your own. Wow, I had to skip it. Yeah, we were rocking it. We were pouring a can. It was a can in a state of fishy wine. Yeah, it was your other shoe. You tied your shoe next to it. No, no, what? Mine doesn't work well. No, when I was like, we got to skip it at home. No, no, what I always see is, is hit training. High intensity training. That's been on there for a long time. Every year, it's always one of the top, it's like top two or three as fitness trends. And again, for 2022, it's like they're predicting it to be a huge, another huge fitness trend. So what do you guys think? I think because in my own head, I can think of many reasons why that may be true and also why that might not be so true. And we are in January. So this is when everybody's really looking up, you know, new ways to work out or whatever. I mean, I think we learned this when we launched it, what, two years ago or three years ago now. How long has it been, Doug? Three? Probably at least three. Yeah. So three years ago when we launched it, um, when it was like the fifth program or so that we launched. So we'd already done quite a few programs before it. And it was the largest launch that we've ever had. So, uh, and I mean, and for a long time, we actually talked about all the bad things around here for a long time. So I didn't anticipate it to sell as well, but it still did. I just think that, uh, it's, it's trendy because there are a lot of benefits too. So it's not, it's not a trendy thing that's trash, right? It's not the shake weight.  Like there's tremendous value in hit training. And so I think the, the things that are compelling about it, right? Some of the benefits from hit, uh, is really compelling for a lot of people. And so I think it'll continue to be one of the hottest trends for quite some time. I first heard about, I mean, cause that kind of interval training had been around for a long time, but in the way that they, we talk about it now. I first started hearing about it in the early 2000s and it was, and we've talked about this on the show, I don't know how many times there were studies that came out showing how effective high intensity interval training was in comparison to the traditional form of cardio, which was always steady state. So for people who don't know, steady state cardio is the kind that you're probably used to where you get on a bike or a treadmill and you're just going the same the whole time. Hit training involves intervals of maximal, you know, intensity or exertion followed by periods of, you know, rest recovery type of, type of deal, but not full rest like you would with traditional resistance training, but a slower pace. So it's like going hard, going easy, going hard. Now I'm oversimplifying it, but that's kind of the two, two things. That's, that's kind of what separates them. I think it's, it's popular because even like a lot of fitness, you know, people in the industry have been trying to figure out how to meet these consumer demands as they first come in. And you know, it's, it's a real tall task for the fitness professional to really draw up this long journey that it's really going to take, you know, in terms of having a long-term success versus something that they could show them quickly that's going to benefit them. And, you know, hit is one of those type of methods that you can see benefit like pretty, pretty quickly from, obviously, there's some things to consider that, you know, may not last very long, but this is something that could at least like jumpstart people. Oh, that's an interesting theory. So your theory is that it, because it fits like the, you know, January narrative of get fit in 30 days or try to kind of get, yeah, like meet the demand of the hype. I can get behind that. I think that's an interesting reason.  Yeah, it's fun. It's fun, right? Yeah. It's, um, so here's, here's something that I've communicated before. I think it's kind of interesting that, you know, uh, cardio and resistance training, both forms of activity, both very different in terms of the adaptations. Cardio teaches your body to build more stamina and endurance to become more efficient. It can cause metabolism to slow down. And when it's the only form of exercise in combination with diet tends to result in a significant amount of muscle loss, uh, and that's the body adapting to the cardio to get better at the cardio resistance, training tells your body to build muscle, doesn't burn as many calories, but you get this metabolism boosting effect, uh, from it, of course, body sculpting and strengthening a lot of stuff. And so that's always been the comparison. Now just using weights doesn't mean you're doing resistance training. I can take weights and I can turn it into steady state cardio. Right.  And I'm still doing like a cardio version of resistance training. Here's what's interesting about high intensity interval training done properly. It's a, it's almost like a resistance training form of cardio. Right. So as weird as that sounds, it takes some of the effects of resistance training and it brings it over to, uh, a type of cardio and primarily what it does is when you compare high intensity interval training to steady state cardio, when they're the sole form of exercise, that's important to say, because if you throw resistance training into a routine, then it negates a lot of the effects of even steady state cardio, but if it's just, if that's all you do, it's got a very, um, profound muscle preserving effect, right? So the fat loss in the studies on HIIT training is, is a higher percentage of the weight loss than you find in steady state cardio. So to put it more plainly, if you lost 10 pounds on the scale and steady state cardio was your primary form of cardio, five of it could come from muscle, whereas from HIIT, maybe none of it comes from muscle, right? Almost all body fat. That's a very, very good pro. It's still providing that signal, uh, you know, to your body that, uh, you have to consider load and you have to consider strength as being something that is necessary by, you know, incorporating that where you, but by doing it in a form, like a, a type of a cardiovascular pace, you do receive some of those benefits, you know, the cardiovascular benefits from it as well. So it's, it's kind of an interesting hybrid in terms of like, uh, you know, both of those different methods. It's like it's not the best of both worlds, but you get the benefits from both. Yeah, you get some of the benefits, right? So you're getting, you're getting this, this, the cardiovascular endurance, right? This, the strengthening of your heart from the, the repetitions being so high, the low rest periods. And so the, the heart's getting strengthened by doing that, but because you're actually weight training, you're also getting some of the strength benefits. But again, I also think that it's, uh, it's not the best of both worlds. It's just benefits from both worlds, you know, because them by themselves, I think are superior. For the right person who, whose goal is to be lean, uh, have a good metabolism, maybe build some muscle and they want to throw in some type of conditioning to improve their cardiovascular stamina and endurance, their VO two max, maybe burn more body fat in a short period of time. It's it for the right person, it's a great form of exercise because it's, it's muscle preserving. Whereas other forms of cardio, you have to be very careful because if you do too much of them, you start to send competing signals with, uh, resistance training because it's the adaptation required or how it causes your body to adapt. Isn't, uh, isn't it a work as well, uh, with resistance training because it's trying to make you more smaller, burn less calories, more efficient metabolism, less muscle. Whereas with HIIT training, there's more of an anaerobic component. So, so for people who don't know what that means, right? There's aerobic, which literally means with oxygen, anaerobic means without oxygen. Aerobic activity would be, uh, running for five miles at a steady state, right? Anaerobic form of running would be a short sprint. Yeah. You're running for short distance, really fast, intensively bouts. Yes. And if you look at the, if you look at sprinters versus long distance runners, that's kind of a stark comparison, but it's a, it's a clear example of the difference of the types of bodies that anaerobic versus aerobic will build, right? Long distance runners are smaller, skinnier, less muscle sprinters, also lean, but way more muscle, way more muscular. Well, they need to produce more force. Yes. And, and, you know, when your body gets that signal that you need to produce more force, uh, you know, you need to make sure that you have the muscle mass to be able to, to generate it. You think it's the load or the rest periods that's preserving the muscle or the combination of both. It's the short anaerobic exertion explosive because you could do it without load technically, like sprinting and running long distance using the same load, my body. Right. But sprinting is anaerobic. I'm going as fast as I can for 50 yards or a hundred yards, right? And that requires big, it's okay.  You want to go 600 miles. You need a small engine. So do you think it's the, again, the, the actual sprinting part of it and the explosiveness of that or the, the resting and recovering and allowing the right heart rate to come back down? It's both. Yeah. Yeah. It's got to be both because if sprinting for 10 miles is no longer sprinting. And I imagine this is a spectrum too. When you talk about load, rest periods, explosiveness, that like there's a better way of doing this and then there's a less effective way of doing this based off of how close you're leaning to more anaerobic versus how close you're leaning towards aerobic. Now, one of the other challenges with steady state cardio is like what we're talking about was just kind of this metabolic adaptation, which happens kind of quickly. Like if, let's say you, let's say you restrict your calories because you want to lose weight. So you cut your calories and then you're doing lots of traditional steady state cardio. Your metabolism starts to adapt to meet the new demands, meaning it actually will slow down. The, and part of the way it slows down is it reduces muscle mass. We said that earlier, but that metabolic adaptation is a real thing. So for anybody watching or listening to this who's ever lost weight with that method, which is most people when they try to lose weight, that's the approach. What they'll notice is this weight loss that's initial. And then they start to hit this plateau, like what's going on. And then to get it to move even further. Oh my God, I got to do more cardio or I got to cut my calories even more. And then they get more results and then it plateaus again. And it's called metabolic adaptation. And each time you go down, you're at metabolism adapts to that and makes it more challenging. You get far less of that with high intensity interval training because hit training is also sending a signal that says we need strength and power. In order to have strength and power, you need to have muscle. And so you get less of that metabolic adaptation. And there are studies that show that comparing hit to steady state where the metabolic adaptation is not, you know, not nearly as bad. Well, and because of the intensity to your burning more calories to in a shorter period of time. Yeah, that's the big selling point, right? It's like, oh, 15 minutes of hit training will burn as many calories as 30 minutes of steady state, right? And that meeting consumer demand because everybody's a busy person. I have no time. Like that is the number one excuse for the majority of people that come to the gym. I just don't have the time, you know, to a lot to because it always seems like it has to be an hour or more, you know, that they devote towards, you know, physical activity. Yeah. So people would rather go really hard for 15 minutes than then be stuck for 45 minutes doing something. So that's a huge selling point. And I get it. Look, I get it. I think especially if you're doing other modalities of exercise and you're trying to add an extra calorie burn, you're looking at your schedule like I'm already working out for an hour, like I don't want to add another 40 minutes of exercise that can I do this in a more effective way or at least more efficient in terms of time? And hit training does that. And that's the biggest selling point. That was one of the studies. Those were some of the first studies I saw. We're like, oh, it has the same effects with half the time. Well, geez, when when trainers and clients saw that, I remember in the gyms, it was like, all of a sudden overnight people stopped doing traditional cardio and everybody started doing hit training. And that was the reason why it sold itself. Well, I think the other reason is because the results come fast, too. Very quick because when you when you are training that intensely right out the gates, your body's burning a ton of calories and the calorie deficit that you're probably creating by doing that results in dramatic results in you dropping body fat or dropping weight relatively quick in comparison to a more traditional slow paced type of training. And so I think that was the big selling point that I remember seeing a lot of is the how quick you could transform and change the body. Yeah, I could for me personally, I could drop and I want to be clear when we say that it gives you faster results. It's not like there's no miracles with exercise at all. Right. So it's not fast results like you lose 30 pounds in a week. It's really great. It doesn't work that way. But I could drop if I wanted to drop a couple percent body fat and I wanted to do it in a few weeks and I wanted to do it through exercise, not just through diet. Hit training will do that very quickly for me. It's like within three weeks, I could drop two or three percent body fat through hit training. Other forms of exercise, not really. I would have to really be more stringent with my diet in order to do that. But with hit training, I could do a little bit of diet, hit training and I'd see fast, you know, fat loss. Especially if you have a good foundation to work with. Totally. It's something that like you could just interrupt your normal strength training and, you know, power out some hit training for a few weeks. It really has a significant impact on your body fat. Yeah, I know it's not sold this way, but I I like to use it as an interrupting my normal training or on the times when I just I don't have the time because it's designed to be a short 15 to 30 minute type of a routine. Well, there's times in my life when I only have 15 or 30 minutes. And to me, I find that's the best time to insert this versus me getting stuck in this hit training all the time. So I like to do that. Or if I've been on this kind of, you know, traditional strength training, you know, straight sets, long rest period, I've been running a, you know, program to program that looks similar to that. Here, this is a great way to interrupt that and then go back to training that way. That's personally how I like to use it versus like following straight through for six to eight weeks of training. No, I'm I'm with you with that, you know, and all the stuff that we just said, I think is probably why it stays at the top of fitness trends and why people, you know, gravitate towards it.  Like if I was a fast resolved short amount of time, less muscle loss, right? So if I was a consumer and I didn't know fitness like I know now, I would be like, I'm doing that. That's what I want to do. That's what I want right now. Now here's the problem. And this is just there's actually more than one problem. But here's the big one for me is it's there's a high rate of injury and it's simply not appropriate for a lot of people. Like if the majority. Yeah, I was just going to say, like, you know, I train people one on one and then I manage gyms and I had trainers that train people under me and I train the trainer. So either directly or by proxy, these are talking about hundreds or maybe thousand clients, right? One way or another. And, you know, ask me what percentage of those people I would say hit training was appropriate for, right? Very small, 10 percent. Yeah, I'd say about 10. That's the most good number. Now, the truth is probably 90 percent of them were put on hit training by other trainers and stuff. When I got when I knew what I was doing, I didn't have any almost any of my clients to hit training.  Speed it up. Yeah, that's like that's like taking something that's hard with a risk injury and injury risk of five. And now let's go fast. Well, now we've just made it, you know, a 20 with this with the risk of injury. But that's not it, right? There's also the high stress at places on the body. 15 minutes of hit is more stressful on your body than 40 minutes of low intensity cardio. It's just bottom line. Well, it calls for high intensity. It does.  Right, right. No, I think in part of it, too, I think that it's it's worse too, because when you see people doing in the gym, it's it's applied incorrectly. Like you. Well, that's a big one. Rarely ever do I see I feel the right people doing it.  And it's just that's a wrong client at the wrong time in their training phase to be doing something like this. Like there's so many other prerequisites that client should be doing before they even consider doing something like it. And so that's the biggest bone I have to pick with hit training is that the people I see doing it shouldn't be doing it or normally not the people that should be doing it. And it's just so heavily motivated to buy fatigue, like how, you know, quickly we can get you to fatigue. And then my biggest bone is that the the form and, you know, the way that these these clients are performing the exercise just gets thrown to the wayside because at least they're moving at least they're, you know, getting to that state where they're so fatigued that they could barely even move their body to endure through the workout. And this becomes sort of that badge of honor thing and that martyr kind of syndrome around it, where, you know, the client feels like they're making progress because they just go to generally they get beat up and they feel like just sweating that amount, like, you know, move them forward towards their goal, when in fact they're it's probably deterring them significantly from their goal. Yeah. So first off, even if even if it was you could move properly, OK? Let's say you live a high stress life or your sleep is off or you're doing a lot of other workouts and so you're pushing your body. It's also not appropriate because it's less restorative than steady state cardio. So steady state cardio, like I could have I could have most people go for a 30 minute walk. However, decondition they are, we could walk comfortably slow and that's a form of steady state cardio. I could not take anybody, most people and have them do just seven minutes of real high intensity interval training. It's just too much tax on the body.  We it's all about fatiguing intensity and at all costs, meaning, you know, here we have a form of exercise that's were intensities in the name that's part of its values, part of the reason why it produces the results that it does and why it can be valuable. But we forget that form, technique and control have to be present because without those, yeah, even in that setting, especially, especially in that setting, like to give another example, right? If you look at all the traditional exercises that exist, they all have a risk versus reward on them, right? Some exercises, very low risk. Like if you do a dumbbell curl, your risk of injuries way lower than if you do a an Olympic clean, right? An Olympic clean is super technical. So what happens if I take someone with a dumbbell curl and I make him go until they can't move anymore? Well, the risk of injury goes up a little bit, but it's not nearly as high as if I take that person have them do Olympic cleans or jump boxes or yeah, right? Because there's so much involved.  And by the way, we when we did ours, we placed a heavy emphasis on this because this is what we saw. Nobody places any time at all or at all or any programming on priming or mobility or connection or movement. So which makes no sense to me because you're doing a form of exercise where the risk of injury is just higher, much higher and you're not prioritizing it? Yeah, especially how high impact it has on your joints and your ligaments and all the connective tissue and not even considering that by trying to do these restorative type of workouts in between to make sure that you still have good stability, function, control out of your joints to withstand a lot of this high impact. It's vital in my opinion. And this is where some of these bad habits that you see with performing the exercises incorrectly or like through fatigue, they carry with clients. I'd have to like address those things later on because when you're doing just regular strength phase, a lot of times some of these habits of just trying to get through the exercise carries along with them.  Well, and I remember when we wrote this, it brought me back to when I used to write these types of workouts for clients in my early 20s and all the things that we were considering, you know, just a few years ago when we wrote this, nothing like the things I was considering when I was writing it when I was 22. Totally true. What I looked at, nothing to do with mobility or exercise selection as far as order of operation.  Yeah, exactly.  And then I can do these other like auxiliary movements. Lunge depress. Yeah. Do something that's hard to get the heart rate up and get it pumping so that I know that they're going to be sweating and killing themselves on the other four to five exercise that I'm going to put with it. And that was the depth of thought that went into actually writing this. And I think that's what I still see today when I see clients training with trainers in the gym doing these type of routines. I see one or two of these either plyometrics or compound or lunge depress to reverse curl, you know, type of movements, all, you know, ten in one. And it's really designed just to get the client's heart rate pumping like crazy.  The exercises are interchangeable and don't matter. That's right. It does. There's no jump around and swing their arms. Yeah, there's no rhyme or reason you could do jumping jacks as hard as you want as fast as you can. And you'll get the same benefit that you'll get from doing these some of these workout programs, which which is part of the reason why hit is so unsustainable. This is why I think it may not be a trend or an actual trend. I know they predicted to be a trend, but why it might not actually be a trend is because it's unsustainable for most people. People do it and they either burn out or they hurt themselves and why for the reasons that we're talking about. And so they get these results for three weeks, four weeks. Maybe they're lucky they can make it eight, you know, eight weeks. And then one of those things happens, I hurt my back, my knees bothering me. I oh my God, I can't do any of these exercise anymore or or you just lose motivation because you're fried. You're just fried and you're like, can I really come back to the gym and repeat this? I also think that it's it's it's applied incorrectly a lot of times too, right? So it reminds me when I was teaching at Orange Theory and, you know, at Orange Theory, you have like the the cardio session and then you go over the weights and these guys would go over to the weights and, you know, up on the screen shows you the exercises and they're straight sets. But people get in this this competitive circuit mindset of like trying to get through it. It turns into like and it's just and it's almost like natural. So maybe it's not even being coached by the trainers. But the client just knows I got to do this one, this one, this one, this one. And so they just go from exercise to exercise to exercise, never letting their heart rate come back down, you know, and and recover so then they can go all at it. So instead of it being like like hit trainings designed to go as hard as you can for a very short period of time and then recover hard as you can then recover. There's none of that. It's just like this. I'm just going trying to get through it as much as I can with no rest periods and it looks more like cardio than it actually looks like weight training. And so I think part of the reason why it's not sustainable. They don't they don't continue to see results from it because it's also being applied incorrectly. Yeah, like the example I gave earlier, you could sprint for 50 yards and that would be considered anaerobic. That would be considered kind of hit. So like a sprint 50 yards and then walk back and then sprint walk back type of deal, right? Or I could sprint for five miles. Now I'm going to be trying to sprint for five miles, but after I burn up my anaerobic energy. Yeah, this is what happened to the body. It becomes aerobic. So it doesn't matter how hard I try to sprint. The first 50 yards is effective. The other, the other four and a half miles. That's right. And here's what's interesting about about exercise in general. And you see this a lot with hit training. We judge it. We tend to judge workouts by the effort or the exertion while we're doing it rather than the results. Now I know we all say we want results, but it's very strange, right? Like if you see two people working out, now unless you're an educated trainer or experienced coach, I can look at two people and be like, oh, that person is working out smart. That person's working out effectively. And I can look at this, but that person's sweating and they're definitely breathing hard, but they're not working very effectively. Most people would look at those same two people and think- Get them mixed up. And mix them up, right? It's like this, right? It's like if I had a competition with two people and I said, dig me a 50 foot hole. And one guy uses his hands, the other person uses a big shovel. And me saying that the person using their hands is doing a better job because they're working way harder. You would never say that. The person using the shovel is doing a better job because they're digging a deeper hole faster. If the goal is to get results, it's about doing it smart. Not about doing it hard. Now, hard is part of the formula, but that's not the only part of the formula. If it's the only part of the formula, then you're not gonna get results.  It's not gonna be sustainable. It's not gonna work. And if it was that easy, everybody would get great results with exercise and yet they don't. And it's because they are judging things based off of exertion. And that's part of the reasons why it's not sustainable because you keep going and you keep trying to match that exertion each time. And if you don't hurt yourself, you end up burning out. And what people say is they end up saying, I lost motivation. Well, yeah, because at some point, your body is now trying as hard as it can to get you to not do it because things are breaking down. I also don't think that it's designed or was created to do for extended periods of time. I don't think that it's something that someone should. That's a good point. I don't think that it was written with the intent of, you should do this all year long. Run this type of style of training. Is there exceptions to the rule? Yeah, absolutely. There's always a case where, okay, I could see where someone would apply that for a very specific reason, but that's such a small fraction of the population. Most people that are doing it for overall weight loss or health or also want to build muscle, all the general population. It's part of the recipe, but it's not the whole. Yeah, no, it's a very small. I mean, there's a reason why the program that we wrote is only, what, six weeks long? It's not even that long. It's the shortest maps program. Yeah, it's not designed to be something that you follow for three, four months at a time.  You get the great benefits of it and then you move out of it and you move into something more traditional. Yeah, I guess the biggest reason why I could see HIIT training not being an actual trend is I have yet to see, the vast majority is haphazard programming at best. It's literally what you said, Adam. They are people who put out HIIT programs are picking exercises that are hard and at the most what they'll consider is be like, oh, we need a back one. We need one for legs. But they still don't understand programming and it's just exercises thrown in there because they're hard and they'll make you sweat and it doesn't work that way. And I've always, I've told people this before, like I could take your HIIT program that you bought on the internet, that's crap, and I could take all the exercises, mix them up in a hat, have you pick five and there's your new workout and it does, it's same effectiveness as the other one because the programming's so bad it doesn't matter what you do. In fact, I could throw all this out and just tell you to do the same thing with hard jumping jacks and you would get the same crappy results. Yeah, or I mean, there's just stuff as trainers will see that you're setting your client up for failure because of how you stacked the exercises together and what parts of the body you know are gonna fatigue and start to give way and then you stack something else right behind that that's super explosive that's gonna really reveal that the core is fatigued right now but now we're just gonna intensify everything and you don't have the spinal support which then leads you susceptible to injury. Oh, hammer the core and then go right to jump boxes or something like that, right? Or start with dead lifts and then work your way through all these like explosive jumps. Here's another thing about the programming is that it's about the time, not about the form. So here's what I mean by that. So with most HIIT programs, it's like do this exercise for 45 seconds like as hard as you can, right? And then what they'll say is, and this is how they try to remedy is they'll say, pick a weight that you can get through 45 seconds with or a minute with. So what a person does is they pick a weight that they could survive for 45 seconds. And when you watch this person, the only reason why they'll pick a lighter weight to do their exercise is because they had to drop the weight or they couldn't move anymore. The real way to do HIIT training is to do the exercise until your form is no longer perfect. Now you're done. Not until you can't move anymore. That's not when you stop. Again, now why would we do it that way? Because form not only is one of the most important things with all resistance training because that's what kind of determines what muscles you're developing, how you're developing your muscle recruitment patterns and all that stuff, but all that plus the risk of injury. If you're going fast and hard and your form breaks down a little bit, I cannot explain enough how much of an increase in the risk of injury that that produces. Like walking lunges with any exercise actually with perfect control and stability is very safe. Any exercise where the form and stability is off becomes dangerous and depending on the exercise, it goes from like squats, like barbell squats done with really good form and stability and good connection, perfectly safe. You take that and you move at five degrees towards bad form and it went from safe to actually a kind of a dangerous exercise. Now this is why you see people who are afraid of squats. Oh, it hurt my back or my buddy hurt his knee or I can't do those anymore. So how they explain going to failure or intensity is so wrong. It should be when your form is no longer perfect. It should not be when you can no longer move or you're about to throw up. That's the big difference. Yeah, and it's almost completely the opposite of what we're trying, what they're actually like marketing is in terms of like trying to turn off sort of those signals your body's giving you to be able to like endure through this crazy gauntlet of a workout versus being hypersensitive to what your body's giving you as feedback in order to then be aware of your form breakdown and know that, okay, I'm done with that exercise and move on really the reps are somewhat insignificant. It's more about trying to ramp up that intensity and definitely get through a good amount of reps but they have to be quality. And then I move on and I repeat the quality in the form of that particular movement I'm trying to do. Well, there's very little effort put towards modifying this for people, right? In other words, oh, we know squats are hard and it's a compound movement or the lunge to the bicep curl to the shoulder press gets the heart rate going. So it's like that and I'm guilty of this, right? So like I would write that into every program. It doesn't matter if Susie was a beginner, intermediate or advanced, I knew that got the heart rate up. So therefore it just made its way into the programming versus understanding that shit, bicep curls and some light dumbbell shoulder presses for some person could be definitely a hit program. It could be in there and be- Super intense for some people. Yeah, challenging enough for that person for them to get their heart rate up, get the benefits of hit training without taking the risk and doing something like squats or a movement that they're not even ready to do. And so that was one of the things I remember when we wrote it that we wanted to take into consideration. It's like, hey, we have to understand that because this is going to appeal to the masses and the people that are just getting started and even for sure the advanced people, we've got to have some way to scale this to where it's like, okay, if you're a beginner, follow this way. If you're someone who's advanced then you're doing these movements and we took that into consideration and just I don't remember ever seeing anybody else do that when I looked at other hit programs. Well, no, that's like a marketing nightmare. What do you mean you're giving people all these, like just be straight, it's one program, here you go, don't confuse people. Simplify it. Yeah, and it's like, no, I can't do that with all honesty and integrity. Like I can't just throw that out there and I know people want that, but no, there should be, you should have options for beginners, intermediate and advanced and hit training does have a formula but that does not mean that it looks the same for you or someone else. The formula essentially is this. It's high intensity exertion for a short period of time followed by low intensity movement for a longer period of time and then you go back to the shorter high intensity movement. So it's not like traditional resistance training where I do a bench press, 12 reps and then I rest for two minutes. It's more like I'm going to a very high intense place with the bench press and then I move while I'm moving across the gym to another exercise, I kind of let my heart rate drop a little bit. Now I'm doing another exercise that's complimentary which, you know, back to the programming. The exercises, you're not just looking at each exercise, you're looking at the exercises that follow that exercise, the exercises that precede that exercise and how they all work together in a workout and then how those workouts work with the next workout and so on. All of it makes, all of it is something you need to consider. That's what programming is all about. That's why it's so important. If you just throw a bunch of exercises together, you can have exercises that precede or follow an exercise that dramatically increase the risk of injury or dramatically reduce the effectiveness of the programming or you could start a workout with exercises that make the second half of the workout far less effective or far more dangerous or you cannot prime properly and increase. So there's all these factors that need to be considered. And an example of that is somebody fatiguing like your core or your low back and then going doing a squatting exercise. Or deadlifts.  I saw somebody doing, this is no joke. Like Olympic lifts? No, that's the word. I saw someone do kettlebell swings, hit style. So the kettlebell swings, hit style, barbell squats, deadlifts, jump boxes. And I'm like, if this person hasn't hurt their back, then they're very lucky to not hurt their back. Now to the average person, oh, that's an intense workout, right? You're going from those, but to an experienced trainer, you know that that's a bad string of exercises in a combination, probably don't belong, maybe not even in the same workout or if they do, you have to program them a little differently. So I think hit training has got so much allure and so much potential, but like many things in the fitness space, things that actually work, get bastardized or watered down or turned into something else because they sell. And you know, you can sell things in the fitness space kind of sideways. So you can't blatantly lie. I guess nowadays, if you blatantly lie and you get caught, you get in big trouble, but you can do it in a way to where you can prove it. So I can say burns faster than any of the form of exercise. Well, I guess I could show studies that that'll show that. It's like best coffee in the world. You know, when you see those signs, world's best coffee. Yeah, world's best coffee. According to a few people told us that, okay. The guy that works there, I'm the one that's in front of you. Is that what you think? That's what I think a hard time I see like claims like that. It's like, oh yeah, world's best pizza, right?  That's that scene in Elf. Remember he walks in the coffee place? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Congratulations. Growny, if you want the thing you love, you did it! Congratulations! World's best cup of coffee. Great job everybody. That's it. But no, it's totally true. They could say all the stuff like, you know, more effective or less time. You don't lose any muscle. You might even build muscle speeds up. Like these are all true, but the caveat is must be done properly, must be done appropriately for the right person. If none of those things are met, then what you're doing is a very risky, dangerous form of exercise that will give you terrible results and will result in crazy plateaus.  Yeah, you're on the right side. So consider those things when you're doing your hit workouts. They should probably be done for short periods of time, you know, between four to eight weeks at most. And if you're looking for everything to be mapped out and written out for you so you don't have to do all the work yourself, you just like, look, I just want to follow something and you trust us because you listen to our podcast. We have a program called Maps Hit and I believe we are putting it on sale. Doug, what is the sale on Maps Hit? Is it, is it half off? It's half off. It's a code is hit 2022. So H-I-I-T 2022. And you can go to mapshit.com.  So mapshit.com and then hit 2022. All right, so do that and follow that. And also if you like our information, we have a lot of free stuff too. So if you want more information, you're not sure if you want to get a program or you just want to learn more, go to mapsfree.com. We've compiled lots of guides that can help you with almost any fitness goal. If you want to find us on social media, you can find us on Instagram. Justin is at Mind Pump Justin. Adam and I have been shadow banned by Instagram because we get a little controversial but I think you can still find us. I'm Mind Pump Sal and he is Mind Pump Adam.