It starts with the players. They do a good job. Well, I'll start back. Defense making a stop to give us the opportunity to go on punt return, because you're guaranteed zero-punt returns each game. So defense getting the stop, and then players doing a great job of bringing the call to life. The scheme is irrelevant unless the players buy into what we're doing, and they go out there and they execute the assignment. So Hajj did a great job winning up with speed and getting vertical, and then it created the opportunity for Richie to come free and take the ball off the punter's foot. So big credit to those guys going out there and being able to execute the plan at the high level and giving our offense great field position. That's a coordinate. How does it feel to have your units contributing this type of first with two black punts in the league? For us, one, it feels good for our players, because we're being able to, we're in a position where we can help with field position. We're a direct reflection and correlation of our offense and defense. Any opportunity that we get delet on the field to help our offense and defense with field position or creating an extra possession or putting points on the board is critical for us. And that's what we look at day in and day out. What can we do to help our team? Being the best position, if we could do that, each and every play that we get, having that one down mentality delet, we're gonna like the outcome. So it's a big credit to our players and how they go about their business. And also, you talk about Terry and Coach Smith bringing in the type of players that come in and help us on those phases and those downs. And they understand whether we're talking about starters on offense and defense, backup players, those guys understand that that play is important to helping our team win games and putting our team in the best position to win games. How do you... I mean, honestly, this last one, we're gonna see you for a while. How do you judge how you guys did this year, special teams-wise? You know, after the season, we'll get an opportunity to go back and watch film and just looking at situational downs, various plays that we could win, whether it's in all six phases. We're always looking to improve. And our challenge this week is to play our best game of the season, which it is each and every week. We're looking to play our best game. So that'll be something that we'll look at this offseason when we're looking at our techniques, our fundamentals, personnel, schemes, all those different things. And we'll kind of tie that all together, moving forward when we get into the offseason. But again, Mike, our number one goal is to go out there and put together our best game as a team versus Tampa Bay this weekend. I understand that, and I respect that. But I mean, you look at where you guys were last year, special teams-wise-to-where you were this year. Is there enough prog... Have you seen enough progress? You believe that there's been enough progress made with what you're trying to build with that unit? Yes, in order to change your culture and change the mindset of special teams, it doesn't happen overnight. And you only get better with reps. And we don't get a lot of reps on special teams in correlation to offense and defense. So the biggest thing for myself and for our coaching staff on special teams and our players is just to be consistent, stay disciplined, and just trust the overall process of what we're doing. And you expect everybody... A lot of times you see people, they want instant success, instant growth. Well, for us in our room, we want gradual success and gradual growth. And sometimes it's hard to take it that, go that direction, but it makes it worth it in the overall process. So we do like our growth and our process and how we've grown on special teams, but we're still not where we need to be to answer your question. Where, how do you get... It starts with me doing the... I gotta do a better job coaching special teams, coaching techniques, having our guys have a better understanding of situational ball and the importance of that one down mentality. Not saying that it's not fair, but we can always get better at it. And that's the mindset that we have. Yes, there are some results that we had on special teams that are very positive. We talk about block punts, touchdowns, big returns, but we don't get fixated on the results. It's all the little things, the process, the techniques, our alignment, assignment, pad level, all those little things will add to better results. So those are things I have to do a better job of teaching and I wanna continue to do a better job in our staff and then getting our guys to understand it and execute those techniques and fundamentals and understand situational football better. Some of your key guys on special teams are on expiring contracts, something in a podge and my board and Brad's opinion. Are those, whoever you think fits in this system, is that something where you'll make your voice heard? It would be great if we could get these guys back because whoever they are, I'm not asking you to name names, but is that something that during the off season that you might go and do if you... The answer to that question, it's whoever can help us on special teams and they're in that room or they could be in that room to help us on special teams and they could be an impact player for us and help us in a positive impact. Of course, I'm gonna go fight for those guys because we're looking at putting the best players on the field. Just no different than what we're doing on offense, no different than what we're doing on defense. We're looking for guys that can help us be in the best position to win football games. So yes, the answer to your question, if there's guys that we're looking at personnel-wise and they can help us on special teams, I will do whatever I can to help put those guys in the best light possible because I know that they can help our team win ball games. When you're looking at, if I can try to separate what I just asked to this, I'm not trying to link them together, I swear. I got you. But when you look at what Bradley's been able to do for you and he was the last he made that punt that bounced out at the one, it just seems like he's been a really impactful player in that battle for field position.  I try not to grade players right now because we haven't finished our season yet, but he continues to get better. And I appreciate his process and how he goes about his business and how professional he is and what he brings to the table as a leader and the weapons that he brings to the table as a kickoff guy for us and a punter and a holder. So he has multiple roles that he has and he's done a really good job for us. And I'm excited to see him go out there this weekend to perform really well versus Tampa Bay. And then once the season ends, that'll be something that we'll look at is overall grade. And not like we're not grading guys now, we're not evaluating each and every week we are, but that's something I wanna let him get his full body of work. Because remember, he's only been here since what, July, August? So he hasn't been here that long, but it feels like when you're getting to the season, he's been here for a while. So those are things we'll look at after the season and continue to work on that overall evaluation process moving forward. Here we go. Pittsburgh, they have that one guy. That's like, special teams guy. I mean, do you envision Mike being that for you potentially long term? Like is that how you see it? I just see Mike as a player that plays with great energy, effort, he's passionate, plays with, he has a measurable speed when he's out in the field and he's a selfless player that looks to help the team in any way possible. And just so happens, special teams right now is this platform that he's using because that's where he plays all his reps on his own special teams. So that's how I view Mike as a overall player and how he is as a leader in that special teams room. Lead him by example, being vocal, being selfless like I said before, and he is an impact player in that way when it comes to special teams.  All his reps are on special teams. I know teams do have those like special teams corner, Slater's special teams receiver. Me as a coach, I don't try to limit guys to they're just a special teams individual when it comes to the answer your question. So I don't wanna put that title and I won't put titles on players saying he's a special teams corner. He's just a special teams player because he's a player that just so happens. He's playing on offense and defensive phases on special teams. That's those are his reps. I guess what I was getting at more is that like with the Matthew Slater or whatever, like that gets burned into their, like their football identity will call it as well. I mean, if we're talking to Mike, it seems like he's good with that. Like I was just wondering if that, he's the type of guy that you could see being, you know, a guy that can be around for a while in that role for you as, as that type of leader. It goes back to guys can help us on special teams and they're impactful in that way on special teams, which that's what I coordinate. Yes, I love to have players like that that are impactful and they play with great energy and they understand the importance of special teams. But I'm never gonna limit and label a player to, this is what he does and this is all that he does. Cause if he gets the opportunity to play on defense, I know he's gonna play with great effort and technique and fundamentals and high energy. But that's not my call. My call is that coach, if he's on special teams, I'm gonna put the best 11 guys out there. Do you have a rooting interest for Devin Hester in the Hall of Fame? Say that one more time. Do you feel like you have a rooting interest for Devin Hester's Hall of Fame candidates? It like, am I rooting for him? Yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah, one of the best to ever do it, if not the best to ever do it. He changed the game of special teams. He really changed the way people view special teams in the return game and how the coverage, a particular player, you had a game plan, offense and defense of you game plan based on if Devin Hester was on that team. When you talk about the Chicago Bears, even when he's playing for Atlanta, even when he's playing for Baltimore, those were things where as a returner, where you're trying to limit reps of him touching the football based on offense and defense, correlating that to special teams, like teams would change how they attack certain defenses and move the change based on not putting themself in a position to punt the ball to 23. So I'm rooting for him and I wish him nothing but the best because he changed the game as a returner and that's very, very hard to do and that's a rare trait to have. Do you consider it a mark of progress for the special teams community for lack of a better term if he or for the respect that special team gets if he does get in? I think it is. It brings awareness to the special teams world of you can change the game based on one play and it goes back to you're only guaranteed to kick off and kick off return and for an individual to change the game in that way with limited reps because you could go and punt return but there's various different types of punt returns. Are you pun the ball from the 50 where it's gonna be an inside the 10 punt or you pun the ball from fourth and 20 where it could be a flip the field and the ball's on a minus two and you have opportunity. Then it's the coach giving the call. Is he calling the return? Is he calling the rush? So there's a lot of different variables and for a guy like Devin Hester to still execute and go out there and be an impact player in that way. Yes. I mean, it brings a lot of awareness to one player being able how long we have players to help them but a player to have the ball in his hands and to make plays like that and change the game. I think it brings a lot of awareness. Do you think that if Hester gets in that opens the door for Cordero? Yeah, I think it's the opportunity for it does open. He's the all-time leading kickoff returner. I think it does open the door for special teams players in general when it comes to a guy like Hester. I mean, doing what he's done for the years that he did it for and I'm excited and hopefully he does get in. Right, I guess it's maybe a little more specific. Just for the returners. Because of the returns and kind of how both their careers happen. When it's all said and done, when CP decides to hang it up down the road, those are things that, yeah, of course, we like to see him, I'm rooting for him as well, down the road. Coach, the 22 categories that we rate at the end of the year, I haven't gotten through all of them, but I'm expecting that you all will be a lot better than 23 this year. Where are you since that you all might come out on the special teams rankings for the year? No.  Start position is one, but yeah, the ones I've checked you. Because you're on a mall right now. Oh no, I got them, I got them out here, but I haven't checked all 22, but everything is up. Rankings, to me rankings, that's irrelevant. Wins and losses. Can we help our team win games? Did we win that down? So at the end of the season, when we're looking at evaluating our special teams plays, how many plays did we win? How many plays did we lose? And how can we win the plays that we lost? Those are things that we're looking at. Not fixated on rankings, not fixated on stats. I mean, we do look at certain stats that help us, like we talk about returns, 10 or more yards, 20 or more yards and how that correlates to us scoring points. Those are things that we look at. Yeah, but don't, no, that's, there's some things that are correlated to winning, but you could have a top rated, I've been on teams that have top rated special teams and we won four games. But what can we do better on special teams to help that team, help the offense, help the defense? There's strong correlations to that. And it's our job as special teams coaches and the special teams players that do a better job and that's gonna be our goal this week and moving forward. And then on the rookies, A.K., Troy and Malone, can you speak to their contributions to your units this year? It's been great having all those young men on our special teams. They've been working their tail off day in and day out, being detailed. There's no shortcuts on success. They come in, they get an extra time, extra film session, techniques before or after practice, during practice and it's a big compliment to those guys because they're working at it and you can only get better reps and there's no shortcuts like I said before. So they continue to lead by example. In our room, whether you're a rookie, first year player, eighth year player, leaders build leaders and we look at all those guys that lead them by example and they're doing a good job of that. Compared to a season ago, what are the specific adjustments that you've seen Avery Williams make as a player that's like so efficient in the pompous arm game? I think it's decision making. Overall decision making, not swinging at every pitch. You could return every single ball but you're probably gonna put your offense in bad field position or probably put your defense back on the field. So I think his overall decision making and his overall understanding of what the punter and what the coordinator or the punt team is trying to execute or what they're having, being a step ahead of what they're trying to do that particular week. You look at the return that he had for 56 yards versus Cincinnati. He did a great job of fielding the short punt. It was a bad punt down the middle of 37 yards low hang time. Urgency to go catch the ball so he could go make a play.  That was one thing that was pretty cool when I did a training camp in 2013 with the Bears. Watching how Devin Hester had urgency to get underneath the football, to catch the ball, to be in a position where he could be a triple threat. And those are things that Avery continues to work on day in and day out. And that's not a surprise on why he's averaging that many yards on a punt return. Okay, I'm just checking in on what we're not gonna see next week on, you know, the rookie's not named Desmond Ritter, that playoff is, that's Drayton Tyler. How have their seasons been for the 16 games? Yeah, what I think, you know, since I've been up here all season about the different processes of young players and veteran players, but for us, right, it's the maturation process of the player. And it's just not the physical. It's the ability for them day in, day out, and it is a grind for young guys to come in, it's a grind for older players. All right, you know, if you went back to when we first even started OTAs, then you get the break and then training camp. I'm not mistaken, we started training camp July 25th, and we're in January of the next year. And so with us, for the players, it's making sure they understand that once you feel a certain level of resistance, either physically or mentally, there's a push-through point. And once you get through that, you're just building essentially your stamina.  And it's us as coaches making sure that we explain the whys to them, continue to push them. And you can see with the young players that we have, just like whoever lines up for us in offense, we count on them. No different than this Sunday. And Schaefer and Fitz, they've been, you know, just, you know, practicing and so forth. Have you seen anything? Yeah, I mean, coming back in, being able to practice with us, you know, we got to stop having them wear their Georgia Bulldogs outfits instead of the Falcon sometimes, but reminding them they're in the NFL. But no, they've been good about that. The reality is, right, those guys are coming in there, every time they line up, right, do let's experience. Regardless of its game or practice, no different for those two. And hopefully this week continues for them, and we see progress for the remainder of the season.  Hold on, D-leg, is that it for 2022? Oh, no, no, I might have got to let the rules go. You're catching the breath. My goodness, man. That was a swan song right there. Final question. I would not, I lost the... Clay Will and others here. Okay. You guys haven't over-undered one. No, no, I just thought, like, okay, what's the final D-leg question? Schaefer, Fitz, Patrick, I didn't see it coming. I wasn't sure if your team and art had, like, an over-undered public question. No, no, no. Okay, no, no. Do you feel like your evaluation of Desmond was hurt or taken away from by, in any way, because Kyle wasn't here, he's been such a big part of what you do, you haven't been able to see them again? That's a good question. I don't think we looked at it. I can't speak for anybody else but myself, right, from the evaluation process for Desmond. It's, like I said before, it's not just, hey, how are we operating at the visitor stadium on third down? It's, how are we operating on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday of the practice week and the Friday? How are you handling your body? What is your communication with your teammates? And so for me, regardless of who's out there, right, we run a lot of personnel as regardless of who's healthy and who's not. All right, we try to put maximum stress pre-snap on the defense to allow the offense to have an advantage before the ball snap. And so for us, and for myself in particular, with Desmond, any young players, you wanna see their ability to handle as much mentally as possible. Physically, right, that's what the fundamental periods are for in practice, right, to push these guys physically through. But again, you don't know a guy's capacity until you push it mentally and specifically at the quarterback spot, right. You like to think that guys can handle a lot but the reality is most feel comfortable in a certain amount and then once you push them over that, they may never have been pushed that hard mentally and therefore there's pushback. But you have to find that out as a coach because the further you can stretch a quarterback's mind in terms of pushing them mentally and what he's seeing and how he's gonna react to something, typically the further you can push them physically because now, right, there's no resistance because sometimes the mind takes over, right. And it's the same telling the body, hey, we're good, I'm overloaded. But you have to get to that point, right, with every quarterback regardless of experience to see exactly where you can go with them. And then once you realize that as a coach, you have to make the declaration as a coach, can I go further, right, I used to have been, I was told this as long time ago as a player, right. A coach's responsibility when he becomes a coach is to push a player further mentally or physically than that player thinks he can go. Then you accomplish your job as a coach. So that is always, right, the testament.  And that's the finding out process with any of our players regardless of age, no different than the quarterback if we're talking about the left tackle. So that's also part of his evaluation as well for us. Do you want him thinking this is option A, B, C, and B, or does he, do you want him understanding that's Kyle Pitts on my second read or that's Drake London and there are certain guys. Sure, I think when you put together the plan in mind, right, there's obviously for us, we wanna see what guys do well, highlight that, put those guys in those positions. In terms of the reads of the quarterback, in my history, one man's opinion, when you begin to force an outcome, which means I'm only gonna throw it to this guy or I'm only gonna look for this guy, what typically happens, not a hundred percent, D-led, you're gonna get me on this, but what typically happens is you become tunneled. And so now, right, instead of seeing a lot, you see very little and then all your forcing things and nothing natural is happening within the system. What you love to see is when the ball is being spread out and then all of a sudden, right, for instance, like on that Cordell Patterson play last week, where he throws what I consider the best ball of the game for him, which was the back shoulder throw, now I know it didn't go our way, but what he saw there, right, on the same page with a veteran player to be able to diagnose, right, has a read here, has an overriding read here and takes it and then knows what kind of ball of throw, that's not a forced outcome. That was, hey, that situation, the appearance I got from the defense told me, hey, that's a pretty good look. And then he was able to go there and try to make a play there. To me, that's good quarterback play. Just to go back and say, hey, I'm gonna throw it to this guy only, I think you get in trouble. Now, people will argue in critical situations, I was told this by another longtime coach, in times of crisis, think players not plays. And that is real, right? When you're sitting there going, all right, man, I need to make a play here, right? Critical situation.  And I think that develops with trust and over time. But I think if you go and approach that all the time, I think that becomes where quarterbacks all of a sudden lose their way. And therefore, when you lose your vision as a quarterback and you become like this, like it's really hard to find it back. So the guy is no different than when you have an aggressive mindset as a quarterback. And all of a sudden we tell you to be conservative all the time, like it's hard to play both. No different than when you're a really conservative quarterback and we're telling you to take shots all the time. It's hard to reprogram. So you just have to be careful from the programming standpoint. And you want guys to have a natural feel for it. And you don't want to take that away. Because I do think at times at the position, you can overcoach it. You can play in the position since whatever age, there's instincts that go with the position. You can be coached out of instinct and become robotic. And that's a goal specifically for myself. And I never want to, I know no coach would want to do that, but for me in particular, I don't want to make a guy non-instinctual. I don't know how to answer that. I mean, it's a long winded eye going. People are falling asleep in the back, which I appreciate, but yeah. Whatever you can take. That might have been the longest answer of the season. You think so? I think it might have been. End of the year, I'm just letting it all out. Let's keep going. Last question, were you good? Here we go. In all seriousness, have you seen enough from Desmond to know? Well, I think we have another game, right? And I think what we have is, when you look at sample size of the players, look, I don't know if there's a perfect science to, hey, he played this many snaps, he's played this many games. Oh, I've got the evaluations. I think guys grow at different rates. I've been around young quarterbacks that it clicked right away. I've been around young quarterbacks that it clicked later and been around young quarterbacks that it never clicked at all, but you keep waiting because you're like, hey, there's this amount of games, just no different than when you're evaluating a quarterback coming to our college. What's the right number of games you're supposed to be playing? Is he a one-year, two-year, three-year, four-year starter? Oh, that's the key, right? There's metrics for everything, but there's always outliers. And so, for Desmond, what I see is this. First start, away, division, rival, at New Orleans, chance to go win it in an environment we have to go win. Next game, at Baltimore, playoff team, right? Ball in his hand. We have four opportunities in the red area. We obviously did not do what we needed to do, but kept us in a football game towards the end. Last week against another very good defense. When you look at these defense, they're all presenting different challenges now. And what they do in Arizona, I have a lot of respect for, because they do try to make it hard on the quarterback. They do try to feel like he's got pressure coming at him, and how does he handle that? Now, it's no different this week now, right? He's going into an environment. Todd Bowles is a guy I played probably six times in the last four years. And he's a guy who has his defense, regardless of who's out there and who's not. He adds different pieces each year, but you can see the intent and the style in which they play. It's not easy on a quarterback. They're a top 10 pass defense for a reason, regardless of who he puts out there.  And again, I think when you look at evaluations, there's always variables that you take into consideration, and there's always weights that you put on them. But for me, what you wanna see is, how is he gonna handle the week? How is he gonna handle the final week of the season? How is he gonna handle his teammates in terms of communication?   And then, obviously, the evaluations will occur. But for me, right now, the focus has been on, let's go out, let's put your best foot forward and understand your issues this week. And after a walkthrough right now, it seemed like he's there, but again, there's a lot more practice to be had. What do you need to see from Drake in the offseason? Like, when he leaves next week to go back to California or wherever, what do you see in the car? Hey, by May, we wanna see, we want or need to see X for you to take the step that you believe in. Right, I think when it comes to a player's first offseason, and I'll just go back to my experience, right? Since when guys declare, think about the process they go through.   And that takes you into OTAs, and then you have a time off and takes you to training camp. It is an absolute sprint your first year. And then the season stops, and then you're gone, right? And you have a break. So for Drake, right, or any young player, there's gonna be a process in which he probably needs to step away, right? He's been going. And then when he comes back or when he's able to start getting himself going again in terms of getting himself in shape and everything else, right, what you wanna be able to do when he comes back is watch the tape with him. And let's truly evaluate the routes. And it's gonna be our job as coaches, right? What does he do well? Where does he need to improve? Where can we help him schematically? And then fundamentally. But I think more than anything else to answer your question, take a breath. Take a breath, and then when you come back in, like let's work together, like we'll have a plan, right? You obviously will come up with things you wanna work on, and then let's make sure that we reach those goals after we've been together now for a year. I think that's the most important thing is communication. But to say, hey, you're only gonna do this because I told you, I don't think that's fair to the player because I mean a player knows themselves better than some coaches think. And so it is part of that evaluation and communication. Gosh. I can always tell by your line language, you're like, hey, wrap it up, kid. I mean, I already got this one. Two years now. Two years, like Robin is, like, it's, all right, now I'm just gonna speak out. You think so? Could be anything. Right? You think so? Well, look, I'm an Italian way. We talk with our hands. I'm holding here like, I don't know what to do. Right? I wanna move and it's like, yeah. Let me evaluate the offseason. Right? Do you think that Caleb's play is elevated this year? And if so, what has caused that? Sure. Yeah, I think with, you know, you look at Caleb and I know his answer in questions last year about the offensive line and run game and everything else. And I think what you've seen this year and what makes you so excited about what they were able to do and still have a game left here, right? Is the way they're in sync with each other. So the nonverbal communication and the way they're coming off the ball, but more importantly, the why. I think when you put a new system in and you have a new position coach and they're trying to feel those things out and then when I know where they stand, I think there is a feeling out process. What I see up front regardless of position is I see a trust in their position coach in the scheme. And when you see that, you get guys to play fast regardless of what position you're coaching. If that player believes in what they're doing, ultimately you see guys play fast. And it's no different from the right tackle to whoever's been at left guard to obviously the other adjustments we've made up front. And for Caleb's standpoint, you love the way he comes off the ball, the physicality, his mindset. And there's always room for improvement, not just for him, but for everybody else, but you see a willingness to want to work. I think that's the one thing that goes sometimes on said in the NFL is these guys, regardless of paid or not, their capacity don't want to get better. And it's no different from other positions, but really the guys up front, you can see it every day. You can see in their individual, you can see in their meeting rooms, you can see the way they play. And there's definitely a prod in which, the intent in which they play. And you appreciate that as, from my position or if I was a position coach to see that group. What's the one thing that stands out the most about Chris Litchford? Well, I think the speed in which he plays. I mean, he's a very good athlete, but he has not just quickness off the ball, but he can strike you. He understands what we're trying to accomplish. He also understands the intent of the play and he'll understand the weakness of what he's trying to protect in terms of the play scheme. And so smart football player plays the right way in terms of his physicality and intent. And yeah, I have just like the rest of the guys from Jake, to Drew, to Caleb, to anybody who's played left guard for us, you love the way that they play for each other up front and they play for the other players in the offense. Cause they also know, right? They'll be the first to tell you when it comes to run game and pass pro, I guarantee if you ask them, they'll say it takes all 11. And they really appreciate that. And it takes, and they take that motto and they have pride in it. Well, I mean, he's kind of, you talk about playing free with quarterback. Sure.  Knowing when to be aggressive. Is that just a product of time? Yeah, I think it's a product of time, experience and confidence, right? Going out there, continue to do it. Realizing that every time he steps on the field, he has a chance to improve. I love his mindset, just like the other young players that we have. And I don't see any reason why he wouldn't continue to improve. Is this it, D-Led? You dropped the ball right here? They're already talking about meeting and working out together, Fitz and Tyler and Desmond. And I guess Draco joined at some point. Do y'all give them like, hey, we work on slants, work on nine routes? I think what you want, that's a good question. They want to work on what they want to, I guess. Yeah, I think what in my experience, when those work the best is when it's organic. Where whoever's the leader, let's say it's a quarterback and he has the reason why. And then therefore, right, he comes up with it, it's because of him and those guys gravitate towards, no different than what we want guys to do during the season. Take it over, own the offense, be an extension of the coaching, but really that would be in a perfect scheme, perfect world, that would be the situation there. We'll see after the season, but be between me and my wife. He played one of the best defensive back games I've been around.  He signed the sack, a tackle for a loss, a couple of PBU's.  I told him the other day, I said, I've obviously been around a long time. I had a lot of DB's and stuff. That was as good a performance as a defensive back as I've been around in a long, long time. It's really proud of him, especially from where coming back from injury and stuff like that just couldn't be prouder of the guy. You have a lot of guys who are coming up on expiring contracts. Isaiah is an example.  Are there guys that you may go to personnel in the front office and say, hey, this guy fits. Let's consider him for a longer term? Well, I think that's something personnel come to me about, not me going to them. I don't, first of all, I don't know anything about contracts. I don't know who's in their last year of contracts. I don't know how much they're getting paid. I don't know if they're minimum contracts or a lot. I don't know, don't care, never have. So I couldn't even tell you who's in the last year of the contract or who's gonna be restricted or unrestricted. I just really have no idea. So basically, usually at the end of the season you get together afterwards. Coach will make that decision. Coach Smith, Terry, and those guys will decide, okay, then give us, and we'll make an evaluation of, we'll write up an evaluation at the end of the season on every player, what I think and goods, bads and different. And then they usually will come to you and say, is this a guy that still fits what you wanna do and all this kind of stuff, and then it's A or an A. So it really isn't on me or any of the coaches, it's up to us to give our evaluation after they determine. Cause they, you know, there's money involved and so there may be, we don't want this guy back because of the money situation. I don't know, but to me, that's something I never want ever, my opinion to ever be based on that. I don't care whether you're getting paid $200,000 or you're getting paid $2 million or $20 million. I don't care that that is not my job. My job is how do you fit, how do you play and how do you fit in the system? That's, I don't care if you were a seventh round pick, free agent, first round pick. That should never be anything that I have anything to do with or care about. Got a ton of free agents, college free agents play for me and start and play well. And so it's my job to just evaluate them and how they fit in the scheme and do they fit in the scheme and do you think they played well enough to get you to where you wanna go? That's my evaluation. Coach, could you discuss the development of the rookies? Arnold, Troy, Malone and Horne? I think all of them have done well. Is there anybody that's quite great? No, but they're in the, I am coach grade either. So it's just, I'm saying none of us have done great or we wouldn't be sick wins. So, but I think they've all done well as rookies. I think they all have developed. I think they've all gotten better and that's what you're asking for you. Are they better now than they were at the end of the season? And I think you can see that. I think that's indicative of the defense. I would think you would say that the defense is playing better now than we did at the beginning of the season. So that's indicative. And we're playing the same guys. So I think they've all improved rookies and just defense in general have improved. Absolutely. Yeah, they're all good draft picks and some of them won't even draft pick, I think. So, but I think whether they were draft picks or whether they were free agent signings, they were all well done by our pro department, scouting department, and Terry and the administrative guys, they all did a good job of picking good players. Soon after Arthur got here, part of what you and Arthur were trying to do was build the culture and builds kind of a basis for this defense. How do you feel like that? Two years out, two years out now, how do you feel like that's gone? Oh, I think it's gone well. I think it's indicative. Again, I think if we were playing the same now as we played at the beginning of the year or last year, then I would say then it hasn't gone like expected. But you guys tell me if you think we're playing better, we're not playing better. In my eyes, we're playing a lot better than we played first half of the year, a lot better. So it's trending in the right direction and that what you want. You know, if it's not trending at all, that's not good. And if it's trending in the opposite, that's bad. So I'm just saying I think it's trending in the right direction. And so when that is the case, I think, yeah, the culture, I love the way our guys play, our guys prepare. That's part of the culture. You want guys that take it serious, it means a lot to them. They practice hard, they play hard. Do I always have the most ability? Maybe not. Doesn't really matter.   God gave you the ability to do all those. God granted some people more ability athletically than others. I was one of those guys he was looking at when he granted, when he was handing that stuff out. So, but the one thing I've always done is pride myself in and it was working hard, giving the greatest effort I could, knowing what to do, trying to do the right thing, and giving it everything I have and be loyal. And that's what you wanna look for in a player. Now, when you get that, plus a guy that's got great ability, you got a Hall of Famer or a Pro Bowler. That's what you got. So, I have no complaints about these guys. I think culture is definitely going in the right direction. Same with me, by the way, I left a list of athletic ability chart. You know, we all are, that's why we're doing what we're doing. Kind of following that though, as you said, just see after the season, and you're gonna talk with your wife. How much does where this defense is now play into some of that, whether you decide to come back or not? At this point in time, I'm happy with the way the defense is playing. That won't, it'll be, there's a lot of things. There's a lot of things, it's hard to say. When you're 73 years old, there's a lot of things at play. So, we'll make that decision, and it will not be just my decision, it'll be a family decision. When you look at how AJ has played this year, how do you judge that? I think, good, that's why we match him up on some of the best receivers every week. You know, if we didn't think he was playing at that level, we wouldn't do that, and the thing of it is with that, there's sometimes you're looking, he doesn't get targeted as much, but then when he does get targeted, it's like, let's say he only gets targeted three times in a game, but one of them's a catch, so it looks like percentage wise, well, geez, you know, it doesn't look as good, but he's always playing on the best receiver. So, you always got to weigh that stuff into account, that yeah, he didn't get targeted a lot in this, sometimes we didn't match him up, whatever, but I think he's played well. I think he's played well, and when you're asking a guy to take on the best guys, what I like is the fact that he longs for that assignment, he likes it, he wants to be that guy, and that's what you want, you want a corner, hey yeah, give me that dude, so we do. With Rashon, you brought him in this off season, he knows your defense very well, how do you feel like he's fit into what you guys asked him? Absolutely great, you know, I love Foyer, thought he did a great job for learning a new system, and it obviously paid off for him financially, but Rashon came in and not missing a beat, felt like we had the same thing, and I think we've even taken a step ahead, and he's, I love Rashon, he's everything that I knew I had in Tennessee, and he was everything when he got here, I'm not the least bit disappointed in him whatsoever, I'm very, very proud of him. This is kind of a hypothetical, go back to the evaluation process, if personnel comes to you, and they may or may not do this, and say okay, I've got the perfect player at all three levels, I've got a perfect defensive lineman, I can take a perfect linebacker or a perfect DV, what do you want? What's your answer to that question? Yeah, all three. It's really always hard to say, because the two areas that you're, it's hard for me to say which one, but you always want to pass rusher, because it's a passing league, you're always gonna want to pass rusher, but you also gotta be able to cover them back there, and if you can't play man coverage, it gets old after a while trying to play all these different zones to cover up because you can't play man. So in some ways to me, I'd rather have a cover guy, I can manufacture some pressures, not that I want to, I'd rather four man rush and sack the quarterback, but if I have to manufacture something, I can manufacture pass rusher in some ways, better than I can manufacture a guy covering, and you know, it's just, but that's it's really arbitrary, I mean, I'm not, certainly wouldn't pass up a dynamic pass rusher, or dynamic defense alignment either. You know, if you got a guy like a JJ Watt, or somebody like that that also can, or you know, Aaron Donald or a guy like that that can just wreck havoc inside, that's the same as an outside, everybody thinks outside pass rusher, well those two guys wreak havoc inside just as much. Any of those guys, it's just, it's hard to say, but the problem with part of the question is that you got two different facets that you're dealing with, you got draft and you got free agency. So what you should be able to do both because one of them hopefully, one side of it you can get in the draft, and one side of it maybe you can get free agency, so it's not like, okay, well you only got one choice. That's, it was the choice in this last two years with the cap problem. That's really is not, to me, should not be the problem necessarily going forward because you still got a draft and we're gonna have a fairly high pick, doesn't mean we're gonna take a defensive guy first round, but you're gonna have some high picks and then the other thing is now you got a little bit of cap money, now you got a chance to maybe go get it free agent. So if you don't get the one and one, hopefully you can get the one and the other, so you can get two. The problem that Art had and Terry had to me in the last couple of years and you had one and it was probably gonna be draft because you didn't have any money to go get a free agent, so hopefully that's not the case. Past rushers that were finalists for the Hall of Fame name yesterday, Freenie Allen and DeMarcus Ware, Robert Madison. Which one do you wanna pick? Yeah. They're all gonna end up in some day. Usually those nominations are, one guy's gonna get in but usually that's a hint that somebody's gonna get in. Who was the other one? You had Freenie. You had Freenie Jared Allen and Freenie first time Allen and Ware returning. Boy, they're all. The group and outside of John Abraham. Yeah, both. I mean those guys are all great dudes. I put Suggs in that category too. But yeah, once he's done it, so I'm just saying that there's some guys. The guy that always got me about Mathis was how small he was and how little he was but that's the way Harrison was too.  You couldn't, you know, it was hard for, actually the tackles were so big that those guys were underneath them all the time and could turn the corner. And I mean, I went against him all the time when he was in the Indy. I mean, I didn't on offense but I'm just saying I watched him and holy smoke. You know what Bill used to do with him? In practice, he'd let him line up off sides.  So like if you're the tackle, I mean they come guys right there. He's so fast because you couldn't simulate it in practice. I thought it was smart as hell because you couldn't really simulate anybody on the car team coming off the edge that fast.  I thought that was one of the things Bill did.  They didn't rush but they'd stand with tennis rackets like this and move wherever Tom moved because he had to figure out to throw it in between them because it simulated getting guys hands up. That's smart stuff. It's common sense stuff but it's really smart. That's why Bill is Bill. I think maybe those two things. I mean it just made sense. You couldn't simulate it so how can I best simulate it? And a couple of things like that. I mean Bill always had something that he would do and everybody would look at it like what? And then all of a sudden you look at it and go jeez, that's really smart. That's really smart. That's why he is who he is. So those are both pretty innovative I thought. I think other than those two that you're like, oh yeah, like this guy did this. That was like. No, those are probably the most two. So, guys good? Yeah. All right.


It is the closing minutes of an April in 1970 evening in California and two men are being pulled over in their red Pontiac along the Old Road and Henry Mayo Drive in Valencia, California. The traffic stop is in connection with an earlier road rage incident, what would be considered a misdemeanor offence, but this pullover would result in one of the bloodiest days in California law enforcement history and in just five minutes, four people would be dead. Today I'm covering the Newhall incident and welcome to Plainly Difficult. Two Men Our story starts with two men renting an apartment in Long Beach, California. Nothing out of the ordinary, friends share apartments to keep down the cost of living. But these two men had met somewhere slightly different than most. Prison. These two new flatmates were Jack Wright Twinning and Bobby Augusta Davis. Both had been in and out of prison for most of their lives. After their original meeting in prison, the duo met up in Houston, Texas and set out for California. The year was 1969 and both men had failed to re-enter society with jobs and as such, they sought out to continue their life of crime. A half an hour drive away from their apartment in Long Beach was Santa Anita Park. The two men, whilst there, had noticed an armoured money car. These seemingly tough targets filled with thousands of dollars were to these two at least attempting a juicy target. But how to successfully defeat such a vehicle? Well the two men had seen something on their journey to California, a construction site that had been using explosives to clear land. Twinning and Davis thought that if they had explosives, then they would be able to blow the doors off the armoured car and get that sweet, sweet cash inside. You know as I write this, this kind of makes me think that they had actually got the idea from the Italian job. Anyways, the two set out on the 5th of April 1970 to procure some explosives. Davis dropped off Twinning to make his way to the construction site and Davis would meet him later on. The car the two had was a red 1964 Pontiac Grand Prix. And oh boy, this vehicle was loaded up with some guns. The two men had a Smith & Wesson Model 39, 9mm semi-automatic pistol, a 6-inch Colt Python 357 magnum revolver, two snub-nosed Colt Detective Special 38 caliber revolvers, a Model 1903 Springfield bolt action, a Sawanoff 12 gauge shotgun, a Remington Model 5 72.22 caliber pump action rifle and a .44 Magnum Ruger Model 44 semi-automatic carbine. Now later on in the evening, Davis would set off the chain of events that would result in a lot of deaths and his own incarceration. When driving along Interstate 5, Davis decided to do an illegal U-turn. This involved him crossing across the highway medium. Pretty dodgy, but the manoeuvre also nearly caused a crash with another car. Driven by Ivory Jack Tidewell, with his wife Viola Bernice White as a passenger. Some horn honking and arguing between the two drivers ensued, which resulted in both cars coming to a stop on the highway. An argument broke out between the two drivers. Davis pulled out a gun and threatened Tidewell. Thinking on his feet, the innocent motorist convinced Davis that the police were in the area and the armed assailant fled in his car. Tidewell and his wife then immediately drove to near his phone box to report the incident, in doing so giving the description of the crazy driver and his car. This incident happened at roughly 11.20 in the evening and the call was put out to all California highway patrol vehicles in the area to pull over a red Pontiac to discuss the dangerous driving and gun wieldiness of its driver. At some point, over the next 20 minutes or so, Davis had collected twinning and the two continued their drive, which would involve passing a CHP patrol car manned by officers Walt Frago and Roger Gore. They lit up the lights and followed the red Pontiac. It pulled off the freeway at the exit for Henry Mayo Drive, after which it pulled into a car park next to a Jay's coffee shop adjacent to a standard gas station. Twinning and Davis at this point decided that they were not going to submit to the police and try their luck shooting their way out. The two officers followed in a 1969 Dodge Parola patrol car. Two more officers in another patrol car were not far away and were ready to jump in if backup was needed. Clearly officers Frago and Roger Gore were not prepared for what was about to unfold as they pulled in behind that red Pontiac. The police car pulled up to the rear of the Pontiac and the officers used their car as a cover. The officers used the spotlight on their car to light up the suspects, illuminating Davis and twinning. The order to leave the vehicle with their hands up was shouted three times. Davis, the driver, complied. He got out of the Pontiac and after another order to raise his arms from Gore put both arms in the air. The next order was to spread his legs and put his hands on the car's rear fender. Davis also did this. With one suspect seemingly compliant and Frago with his shotgun raised in the air or the stock of his hip approached Twinning, who was still in the passenger seat and their passenger door was still closed. As Frago went to open the door, Twinning flung opened the car door with a revolver in his hand. Frago shouted hold it and lowered the shotgun but Twinning had the drop and fatally shot Officer Frago. As soon as Officer Frago hit the floor, Twinning jumped out of the passenger seat and started shooting at Gore across the rear of the Pontiac. Gore turned and shot back, missing Twinning hitting the Pontiac and a Mustang parked near the coffee shop. Davis used this distraction to pull a two inch revolver from his belt. In an instant he fired two shots, almost point blank at Gore, killing him instantly. Two officers were now dead. Officer James Pence and George Allen pulled up in their dodge patrol car alongside Gore and Frago's vehicle. As soon as the car stopped, both officers were met with gunfire from both assailants. The revolvers both Davis and Twinning had were now out of ammo and retreated back to their car to retrieve some more of the guns that they had. Davis grabbed out a sorenoff 12 gauge shotgun. Twinning pulled out a 1911 pistol. Twinning fired one shot from this but it jammed. He discarded it and grabbed another from the car. Pence and Allen radioed into CHP that shots had been fired and officers were down. Allen emerged and moved to the right hand side of the two patrol cars and emptied his Remington model 870 shotgun at the Pontiac. He then retreated back behind and in between the patrol cars. He pulled his service revolver and emptied it into the suspect's car. As to this volley, only a superficial wound was received by Twinning.  He then made his way back to the Pontiac, picked up Frago's shotgun and after trying to operate it, accidentally discharged it into the air. This was then discarded and Davis took the downed officer's service revolver. Now every story needs a mad lad and this would come from a passerby, Gary Dean Ness, H-31 and a former US Marine. He saw the gunfight between the CHP and the suspects. After Allen was downed, rather than running away, Ness thought I'll have some of that and charged him behind the patrol cars in an attempt to drag Allen's body to safety. Ness, upon not being able to drag Allen, picked up the CHP shotgun and tried to return fire at Davis. But Ness was unaware the shotgun was empty. Next Ness, under fire from Davis, took Allen's revolver and fired a single shot, lodging a fragment into Davis's chest. The revolver now too was empty. Meanwhile, Officer Pence's revolver was also empty. He knelt down to reload behind his patrol car. Twinning flanked him by running out from behind the left side of the Pontiac, firing four shots at the officer, hitting Pence in the chest and in both legs, sending him to the ground. Pence on the ground was still frantically trying to reload his revolver. At the time, officers were not issued with quick reloaders and as such he had to load one round at a time. In the absolute pain and confusion of the situation, Pence didn't notice Twinning approaching. At point blank he said, I've got you now and fired two shots into the back of Pence's head. Seeing this, Ness retreated and sought cover in a ditch. A third police car approached the scene and Ness ran up to the vehicle. The car was carrying Sergeant Harry Ingold and officers Roger Palmer, Ed Holmes and Richard Robinson. More firing erupted and Twinning and Davis fled into the night, taking with them several guns and dispersed into two different directions. Meanwhile, the police scoured the area for the two and began to piece together the shootout. The empty Pontiac was approached and searched, but both men had slipped away into the night. But our story isn't over yet. Davis stumbled about in the night and at roughly 3.25 am came across a camper parked up with 40-old Daniel James Schwartz inside. A gunfight ensued between Schwartz and Davis, with Schwartz firing his Lee-Enfield rifle. Both men ran out of bullets and Davis overpowered Schwartz, hitting him with his pistol. With the owner subdued, Davis fled in the camper. Some time later, Schwartz managed to report the theft to the police. A couple of hours later, he was pulled over and Davis now out of ammunition, surrendered to the police. He was claiming he was a hitchhiker that had only stolen the camper and was in fact just an innocent bystander to the police slaying earlier on in the evening, stating he was just a passenger, not the driver of the Pontiac. But this was obviously all rubbish, but we'll come back to him in a little bit. Now, Twinning was still on the loose, the hostage. Twinning fled the scene across US-99 and covered roughly 3 miles. Eventually reaching Lyons Avenue, he broke into the house of Glenn S. Hogue, and in the chaos, Twinning took Glenn hostage, but his wife and son thankfully escaped, alerting the police and doing so. This was around 4.30 in the morning. Police quickly surrounded the house and a standoff ensued. A police negotiator would chat to the suspect over the telephone and during the conversations, he would brag about the death of Frago by saying his mistake was carrying his gun at port. He got careless so I wasted him. The police issued an ultimatum at 9am. Twinning released his hostage and tear gas was thrown into the house. As the police entered, a single shotgun blast rang out. The suspect had taken the easy way out. Aftermath So back to Davis, his story was about as believable as the use of a chocolate teat pot, and it was quickly found out that he was one of the two men who committed the massacre. He was convicted and sentenced to death for the murders of the four CHP officers, but luckily, or not, Davis' sentence was commuted to life in prison without parole. This was after the US Supreme Court ruling on Furman v Georgia, where the death penalty was deemed unconstitutional. He would last until 16th August 2009, when he would also take the easy way out. The shootout would be dissected as to how four police were killed in just five minutes. Well, there was one startling similarity. All men had under two years service and all were between the ages of 23 and 24. None had ballistic vests, but although not standard issue, three of the men would have likely survived their wounds if they had been issued them. Speed of reloading was also an issue, as well as their pistols being different from which they had been trained on. As a result, the CHP standardised their weaponry and training. The event would help push forward better training procedures in police stops, especially when dealing with armed individuals. And as such, I'm going to give this tragedy a legacy rating of a seven. I'd like to thank my Patreons and YouTube members for your financial support, and the rest of you for tuning in every week to watch your weekly dose of me talking. I have a second channel, called Made By John. I also have an Instagram and Twitter, if you want to see other random pictures I put out. And all that's left to say is, thank you for watching, and Mr Music, play us out please.


Hello, my name is Iain Putnam. I'm 11 years old and I love Frankfurt. My name is Angela Yang from Beijing, China. Welcome to my studio in Santa Barbara, California. And over here is my vocal booth, which I use for narrating audiobooks. This is one of my cats. Her name is Arisa, and she often listens to me. Good additions, they should have clarity in the score, which leaves imagination to the performer. I love quality paper. I love the way it looks, the way it feels. The soft color of the pages, easy on the eyes. For me, it's actually a collection. It's not just music that I want to learn and play, but this is an important part of my life. And I'm also discovering the new functions of the app. I love the function with the metronome, the markings, and the recording function.  Then you can enjoy your drink. It doesn't rain often in Santa Barbara, but what we do have a lot of is sun. And so this would be, in fact, a great hat. Happy Birthday!


You know, it's been said that to love someone long-term is to attend a thousand funerals of who they used to be. And I think it's very true, I know it's very true. This applies to loving yourself long-term too and attending multiple funerals of previous versions of you. We have to draw a line on a version of us that no longer serves as well and of others. And then we have to have some kind of closure in our hearts and minds about that version of us or someone else. So maybe today you need to find the courage to attend that funeral and say goodbye to an old version of someone who you love and want to do life within longevity, but they're not the same person, but neither are you either. And that's how life is supposed to unfold.