I'm delighted to be here, and I just want to welcome the panelists and our moderator, and thank them for participating. And at the IIA, we're engaged in a three-year project on the future of Europe. And these public debates are taking place around the country, and they're part of that project. And it's really looking at Ireland's role in the changing working union once the UK needs. So this is the fourth event. We've had ones in Cork, Dundalk, Maneuth, and now we're delighted to be in Waterford tonight. I'm going to put you on the go for Damon to take you through. And we hope you enjoy the discussion and take part in the Q&A afterwards. Thanks very much. Can all of you set the back? All right. My name's Damon King. I present the day-to-day program on WLR. And we have assembled, I think, some really, really interesting minds with different opinions, which I think is essential. And the format tonight, basically, I'm going to give each of the speakers between three and five minutes, as opposed to lay out the stock, if I may, because it's particularly important in relation to our topic tonight. Which is, if I have to try to sum it up, would be, how are you affected? Because you're all the citizens of this country. How are you affected in a post-Brexit work? What do you normally like? And we get a nice span of both experience. My great sitting beside me, Sandra Grace-O'Feltman, led to the Shannon 2016, as many of you would know, has been a number of key office committees, but the environment and the ecology. And I was thinking this morning as I was driving over, and I often staff up at A Beach and there's been a plastic watch stuff. I was thinking, yeah, this is relevant for tonight. New directors on single-use plastic and different things like that. It hits every bit of our lives, so tonight's not going to be an intellectual discussion. It's going to be about how are your lives affected. And we thank the Institute for allowing us to do it that way, and they were keen to do it that way too. So Grace will be looking at that from a number of fronts. We have the President of the Water Management Technology, so Willie Donnie, really good to have you on board. We've had many debates in the very old strong ones, combative ones, and we're here again. And I think it's worth remembering as well that Willie is on the European Member State Future Internet Forum. He's also a founding member of the European Digital Enlightenment Forum, and he's a member of the European Research Innovation and Science Policy Experts High-Level Group. So we'll accept Willie C.B. tonight, I think. I think he gets the gig. We also have Greg Barford Mann, and for the likes of Kieran Barges, Managing Director of the Fantastic Newspaper The Monster Express, one which we frequently use as a source. I hope they all have his credit. It's a great newspaper. He's 20 years senior management experience. But also, Kieran has many different hats for those of you who know him. He's Director of Water, Chamber of Commerce since 2012, and he sits on the Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation Policy Advisory Panel. But he also has a lower of knowledge, which is just beyond any C.B. And then, I'd like to have Kean Stepping and Kean McCarthy, a senior researcher with the Institute. I was talking to Kean earlier about Europe, and you know we all see things like American Stepping down or what's going to happen with trees in May, which you get it truly and on. Talk to Kean beforehand. He's able to marry the wider policy things happening in Europe in different countries, your skeptics, with that down-to-earth real politic as well. So I'd be fascinated to hear what he has to say as well. When they've finished giving their opening address to you, about three to five minutes, we'll then have a discussion among the panel, between 25 minutes maybe half an hour. And then we're trying it out to you. So if anything comes up, as we're speaking, if there may be something which you've talked about long before this, do you know why I really want to raise this about the European project or whatever it is, do feel free to put your hand up and we bring the microphone around. Is that okay? All right. So I'm going to begin, and I'm going to ask Grace to begin her address here at the European Institute tonight. Thank you very much, and thank you to the Institute for giving me the opportunity to speak tonight. And most of all, thank you to you for coming to this event. I'm taking an interest. As it happens, I'm a Green Party candidate for the European elections that will take place in May 2019. I'm the only candidate, so the nomination has taken place and next Saturday I will receive the nomination of the Green Party. So with that in mind, I feel it's a really good time for me to be here to speak about European affairs and community involvement and Europe in an Irish context. Europe, I suppose for me, I stood in the 2014 European elections and it was like a baptism of fire. It was a very, like a crash course in trying to learn what the European Union is, how it functions. And that in itself was an absolutely fascinating process. But it is something that I wish everyone and every citizen and people debating would have a run at the European elections in order to get your head around what it means and what the opportunities are for us here in Ireland. So actually Europe has the primary body which Ireland can have its voice heard on a European and a global level and in Europe and in addition in the United Nations. So we are a relatively small country in terms of population size. We're also an island nation which makes us somewhat different to a number of other European countries and countries in continent Europe. But I feel that together we're stronger. So I would be someone who sees the opportunity of being part of the European project or the European Union as something where we as a nation add value to who we are and that we get a return in cooperation, collaboration and in knowledge transfer and so forth. So for me I would be seeing myself as a strong component of our membership of the European Union. That's not to say that I'm not listening and I'm not aware of the concerns of European citizens but particularly people that I meet here who work with Tremor around the south-east and in my job as a Green Party senator. And what I hear is that people feel that disconnection with Europe and that's a problem in terms of how we in Ireland communicate with regards to Europe and what it offers but also from a European Union perspective I would say that there is a problem in terms of communicating what can be done as partners in this big project of 28 currently and possibly 27 within a few weeks. And the Greens have always been a strong and coherent force out of the European level pushing for change for a more democratic Union that listens to the voices of the citizens and involves citizens in the daily work of the Parliament. So this has meant pushing for increasing the power and influence of the European Parliament for opening up legislation and decision-making processes of the EU to be more transparent and that we have greater scrutiny. And it means seeing the Union more than just the sum of its parts not just being a group of governments coming together to make trade deals but rather 500 million citizens sharing in advancing common beliefs and ideas in terms of democracy, inclusion, reason and peace and the Green Division is one of Europe as a force for good whether it's improving environmental sustainability, tackling climate change, advancing disarmament or promoting peace internationally and that is not the reality of the EU entirely as yet but it is the aspiration and the dream and the vision. And then the EU is currently at a crossroad and the elections next year threaten to see potentially a generation of extremists who won't do much of what the European Union has done thus far since the end of World War II. So participation in the European elections has declined over many years but in fact in 2004 there was a tiny recovery which is positive but it was more. The challenges is to communicate what I see and it's a complicated process because of the size of the European Union and the different countries and the complexity of language and that so it isn't an easy task but it isn't unsurmountable. So just as opposed to Samo, for me it is the European community of people, of citizens and that if we can work collaboratively and work well together also as Ireland in the European context then globally we create a better environment already. Right, thanks to Grace and Sullivan and I'd also like to welcome tonight we have our Mayor, is that the Mayor? Is that the Mayor? Yes, I can see it. And we might hear from the Secretary of State of Africa as well. Thank you Mayor for coming tonight. One of the big things I suppose about Europe is someone putting me truly in the shop like why are we getting out of it? Why are we getting out of it? I suppose one area maybe where we've gotten something is funding for research and we've seen here in Europe particularly Crystal Valley and some of the success of the companies from WIT that can have huge benefits for everybody and I think it's appropriate that we have as Willie Dunning with us tonight who might look at some of those aspects particularly what's coming down the road for us and can be drawn more from that horizon and things like that, Willie. Well you're making the point that when Europe began the number of years ago in 1989 and the time was up there it was called home but then I started in 1989 and it was actually on a European research programme and the fact was that we had very little money in 1989 and we relied on Europe and most of the research funding that came to Ireland during that period of two about two thousand and two and a half years ago Europe also invested investment in our current level institutions and people who have graduated particularly from the Institute of Technology got grants from Europe so the European impact on this country in particular and in the evolution of this country from being a low cause manufacturing economy to what we are today Europe has played a major role in that and one of the areas I'm looking at at the moment is the whole idea of where did Europe go in terms of economic convergence because this was part of European policy for economic convergence and the great success story for Europe has been that through structure from from economic convergence but Europe has done a bit of crossroads now and the reason is that the Ireland as a model as an ideal model for the success of the European investment and then we have the new countries in Eastern Europe coming in, the problem is that the models that were used in the old economy if I can call it that don't apply to the modern economy because today what we have is a digital economy and in the digital economy it's a global economy so protectionism that would allow we say peripheral regions in Europe to slowly grow and take investment in Europe they don't have that opportunity anymore so really from a European perspective there's a shift and this shift is causing huge destructive effects in Europe because the answers now has not to be on investment in physical infrastructure but investment in knowledge infrastructure and research is a key part of that so what we're looking at now what Europe is trying to deal with is how do you move forward to peripheral regions in a globalised economy how do you invest in economies that can transform them from the old manufacturing to the knowledge economies and this takes a new way of thinking and a new approach but it also takes and maybe this is the difference that we're seeing in terms of our own relationship with Europe it also takes a shift in the way we do business at the country so we're very well used to the idea of innovation and economic innovation but in this new digital economy we need to balance economic and social innovation to create a more sustainable society and that requires and I'm really turning in the binocular sense if we are successful going forward in Europe the thing is our own structures in terms of how we view government how industry and education engages has to be much more open so what I would say is this kind of new destructive economy the globalisation of this economy a lot of this sort of has been seen in Europe in the rise of the rise of kind of the frustration from the new emerging states are coming from that so what I would say is Europe in a globalised economy it's important that the government is at the heart of this new economy and I'll talk after about some ways that that's impacting on us and some ways for instance that we need to respond as well my open statement is that the European model has changed and has been changed because of the nature of the type of economy we live in and that creates challenges not only for Eastern Europe and other areas but even for us and the sustainability of our own society OK, thank you Willy for that next we have Cure and Watch Imagine director of the Monster Express I was talking to Cure beforehand against thing in our program post-Brexit we thought all of there would be huge turnout and the text flooded in and people are going I mean we wanted from producer food producer more what's going to happen to me and when you read the Monster Express and some of the stories they cover and they celebrate some of those people but there are implications in this New European order if you want so I say I guess we've got to keep relationships going post-Brexit and particularly with our neighbours in the Northern Ireland and the South Wales and so on it's not going to help relationships but we still have friends and neighbours who need it and say we're in and we need to stay friends but we also need to build relationships more with minority countries with our own former allies and friends in Spain who helped us in the past in history and struggles in the UK in the past but I just thought maybe we could have a new type of economy here like we had in 2011-12 where we get people to come and do business in America because we get the chapters here and maybe we might get more support it's just a bit of an unusual idea but who knows we could appeal to the US on this one we could also encourage the Americans to come over and maybe trade with us more and help us out in these service centres and they might prefer us more than based on themselves in the UK it's a cultural release point and perhaps we need to engage more with European projects that is over there in October and the Commission to be the same and have a planning of funding projects research it could be the carbon economy climate change the smart economy, smart agriculture the Irish government isn't putting enough emphasis on it and they're just only available but they have to match it so maybe they're still in the recession taking a little bit of a save on all the time but they could be doing more and we also probably have to know the full situation Britain has been in great place for selling our dairy and beef but we might be able to sell as much in the future and then we get fully into the States or Canada and so where are we going to sell our food checker might be a seller but we could sell our beef at premium prices so we could do more there here in Marlborough we have a port and perhaps we need to be thinking about linking up with France and Holland just like bell lines in the past is that container ships going from Marlborough to La Havre to rather than other places and apparently there's going to have to support Sparta if we do it and it would mean by passing the UK as at a truck has to be in twice water I was on duty to get a truck and it could be a danger of double tariffs with a truck went from Ireland to England and then out of France or Belgium or Holland they might end up paying twice if they had to pay the work not an order so a lot of time could be lost then it is an extra travel time it takes 20 hours nearly to get to Sherwood but it's faster if you go to England you could have a lot of homeless there so the land bridge could be like a higher credit for us and get a double of money there and there could be a rising wear in our space in our future so maybe we need to build more wear as possibly we need to engage we need to engage more and have partnerships with our fellow European countries and have more cooperation and working business together but there was that kind of economics there two weeks ago and it was said by Manly Wright that the National Planters were going to raise it guys it really came to it and the two weeks of chaos went over they swiftly changed their tune and they'd be voting to continue business as normal and the hard men would have it back down a bit like the trade issue so that was one point made maybe there's something in that another thing that could happen as well the Scots would be in the jealous of what we're doing and all in Ireland in their position we need the UK so there's a lot of state there the farm lobby in Northern Ireland and Scotland are already trying to support Mr May at the moment so there we go we could have a situation as well there could be migration towards instead of going to the UK for jobs from Eastern Europe or elsewhere they might want to come here they're not really prepared for that but it could happen education is another area perhaps we need to learn more European languages if we want to be in this new sense and maybe we should start from primary school and they do a bit of life over there with a German teacher in Waterford she talked about St Paul's Primary School so maybe it does apply to projects but we're considering again so twinnings is another area where we have languages and languages in France and also there are a lot of other languages which have been used in the past 100 years perhaps in Europe and maybe that's what continues so that's kind of a few other points to make thank you for your discussion thanks for that next we've got Keene McCartney who I just met tonight he was a senior researcher with the Institute and we were discussing about each of our three speakers have said so far you might remember here our referendum our original vote for this is there such a thing as a European dream and talk about the rise of populism and right wingers and so forth and I know that's some of the things that Keene may address as well thanks Aaron I think the idea of our referendum is interesting because one of the questions you kind of said at the outset here is what does the EU effect us but I think an important question as well is how can we affect the EU and another question you asked is what are we getting out of the EU but equally it is important to ask what we're putting into it and I don't just mean in terms of money or resources but also in terms of ideas and stuff and that's what we're trying to do at the moment at the Institute of International and European Affairs this project is supposed to be what the actual people want from the EU because it's one thing to say what politicians want or what economists believe in the EU but that's not always the same what the people want and it's really important to have that to date and I've actually been doing part of the project of also being knowing each other EU countries taking part in these kind of events and talking to each other think times and people and it's been really interesting and really what I found is there's two types of debates that are going on at the moment in the EU one is what basically happened in the UK and that's the question of do we want to be part of this project at all and do we want to give up a little bit of our sovereignty which is the control of your ability to govern yourself are we willing to give that up for the benefits and that's an important question that the UK has grappled with a lot and they decided 52% of them anyway decided not to leave and some other countries in Europe are taking that question so you'll see the moment and Ireland doesn't seem to be having quite that debate there seems to be consensus that our place is within the EU most surveys put that number more than 90% of Irish people believe that membership of the EU is a good thing but there's another really important debate that we need to have in Ireland and that the IAA is trying to we're part of this union but what kind of EU do we want how much integration do we want along a lot of policy areas and it's a question that's going to be really important after Brexit because we've had a lot of support from the other EU from the seven members about the Brexit table and that's great but there's going to be some difficult conversations coming down the line for Ireland and I think it's really important that the government consult people on these issues and I've had a couple of these one of them is in the area of defence you mentioned there a little bit about the idea of more defence cooperation and Angela Merkel the German Chancellor was quoted from saying she has this vision of the European army and that brings a lot of the arm bells in Ireland and I think we do have to have the question if that project is going towards defence how are we going to fit our own national interests into this and it will be interesting to find out because there is a lot to be said for cooperating with other countries to keep our conscience safe but also we have to look at how it affects the neutrality that we hold very dear the other question is on the issue of taxation the politicians in Ireland are very consistent the tricky government politicians about the importance of having a loan out of the corporate tax rate and there is a lot to be said for it there is a lot for bringing in foreign direct investment and everything I don't think it should be assumed that there is a consensus among all the people but that is the kind of economy we want to have and at the citizens dialogues which were organised by the government I think there was a surprising number of people particularly young people who said why are people expected to pay certain amount of taxes and companies pay less and it is important that we have this debate to decide what kind of Europe we want and those debates are also going to affect Ireland's place within Europe because we could say we are pro-European but if the rest of the EU is integrating in a battle that is much different than what we are looking for we have to see how we fit in but I do think it is going to mention Ireland's places within Europe personally and I think that Brexit actually, if anything a lot of people have talked about this idea maybe Brexit will lead to a domino effect and other countries will start leaving and make our base more within Europe and because even though British nationalism is very much around the idea of the old empire and English nationalism if anything Irish nationalism is about being not British and if anything now defined as not being British it is being European so I think it will be much better in the future to see Ireland and the EU has done that before we entered the EU 66% of our trade was with the UK now it is down to about 13% and the EU has given us the ability to branch out to build relationships with other countries and I just think that is going to get stronger after Brexit but I really do think it is important that events like this we ask the questions well, if we are in this project what kind of project do we want it to be OK Key and thanks to me now before we go into this question and if our mayor would mind saying a few words thank you thank you so much for inviting me to see Ireland and it is an interesting copy especially for the last couple of months for the last couple of months of the base regarding the Brexit between England and Saga where they came from and where they are going to it is a question we should ask it is quite a day of work to get out I think we should get that message to the government as well the biggest I would say temptation to vote for England to get out was you are too inquisitive they have to know too much about our business it is where I come from a family back home I have and some people they will actually hold where and be aware of how the family some other people and how the farm and I don't feel it in yet but performance people play if you are looking at him that you I mentioned there they are very complicated bureaucracy is ridiculous if we are sharing if we are going to be members of Europe it must be more simplistic I think it is mentioned there seem to be it is another question of mine I was in 1999 I was in Sydney where the family they were plastic containers and and that is not impossible the Chinese market that is the warm prices from a very popular population to zero that can't be so easy Europe with no interest and the bar I mentioned about I got back to the signal if Germany went east with a different model definitely with a different movement so maybe our road fantasy deal is very important and I was in I had a place shop in Vienna for the weekend I was in Europe in Europe in the innovation and the second European they are second in top language it makes me float there we were in Austria Germany but they spoke English and they have French they have other languages so that's very important that we would in primary school we were in first year we had a chance to study French or German but in Vienna you would be a child a computer they could teach us basically to capture us but we are students what can we do what is I don't think we can afford we can't afford not to cooperate with you this week now on my a cultural background cap there's a single found payments and subsidies coming and every bank in Ireland and merchants depending on new checks to pay accounts so our families can't do well for coins now the huge expense in Ireland mentioned a huge cost I see across the back in 1970s we were all official we were families we would be across like a public land than any other country and our fishing it appeases and we are processing human data but as much as possible we can't do all of this that's an old saying so I would like to talk about they are only my company and I have an interest which some of us right now and manufacturing we need to be able to export and our company in our city we had a high stock in 2018 they were all fascinated what has been produced and manufactured in our industrial states and you and I have already thought into manufacturing operations that are exporting most of what they are producing so we can't do we can't do without you thank you very much and thanks to our mayor I think he raised a lot of very interesting points which I'm sure would be interesting for the panel so what we want to do now for the next 20-25 minutes I've made a few notes there as well there's a few things said there which we might have a look at but I'm going to be over to you as well so you can make your notes and take in what's been said there was so much if I might begin if I can begin with you and you were making the point that the protectionism that there was for countries in the early days so that if you're subsumed at this huge market we remind you to a degree but because now of a digital economy such protectionism it's not going to exist anymore and you say well maybe later I'll explain how we might do something what can be done about that I think there's a key point there's a nature of the economy it's changed fundamentally globalization is the key driver at the moment we're no longer competing in a small economy we're no longer competing just with the UK they are driving the new economic economy the new economy and they are our competitors the same is happening the US etc and the challenge really is that we're a very small country, a small number of people on a rock at the edge of Europe and we need to be part of a larger community because we can't do anything ourselves so if you look at technology this is my background in the whole area of technology and research and innovation the drivers that are needed the disruptive element of technology and our ability to both respond to that disruptive environment and utilize the knowledge that we need to be creative we need to be part of a bigger community and Europe gives us that larger platform in which we can engage how do we like, we're a country we're a city here in Warford who in Europe is going to listen to us how do we get them to listen well I mean we are a small city we're a city that's well educated we're a city that have hugely innovative people which city that have this industry instead of grown up I mean if you look at you mentioned and you look at the IT industry in Warford there's a hundred companies here that were not here kind of years ago all exporting internationally so we have the intellectual capacity we have the innovative capacity but the point is not so much that the point is that in the global the focus now is on sustainable societies when we joined the EU it was all about economic development as long as you had a good job that was it but now it's about how society organises itself and the quality of life of that society now we don't just treat million people capacity to solve all those problems on our own and I give an example one of the areas I was working in in Europe was in the area of smart cities and most of the development in smart cities now we should be consumers of those of that knowledge and not always see ourselves as being the producers of it so what I would say is first and foremost is that as part of this European Union from a knowledge perspective from a quality of life from an economic development by participating in the European platform like Horizon 2020 by partnering with other industries and research centres across Europe we have access to the knowledge and the knowledge through the 315 million people as opposed to 5 million people so the way I see it is in a globalised economy we have to be part of the archival it was interesting Grace because there is some disarising from that and Grace and Keir and Karen and the audience at the moment is at the first one point the EU ruled that Apple should pay us back 13, 14, 15 million whatever and the Irish government said no, it sounds strange we don't want that money but because for reasons this tax advantage and you talk about protecting the economic model that was coming to a business here at a very low rate and Grace I want to ask you as a member of the Green Party based on what Keir said these meeting young people who were saying why are they going to tax less than us why don't we go back to our industry he was a member of the Green Party should we take that money instead of fighting and appealing the EU decision I feel that in terms of tax in large corporate corporations they have a tax advantage that's why they come here and whether from a quality point of view that's fair across Europe that's the question they come in here because they have that advantage and in addition they have good knowledge they have high intelligent human resources available to them but in addition they have that tax advantage to my mind we should take whatever we can and use it in the green economy and the green economy in terms of smart cities take the best of the intelligence in terms of circular economy green economy so let's say the new age the word will bring us into true sustainability so that we are smart in how we are living in terms of our housing in terms of transport we're smart in how we deliver people might say grace we're not going to be smart if we lose our competitive advantage and despite the climate we still rely to a degree on foreign direct investment and if we alienate those companies how smart is that? but I'm wondering if we do that I do wonder would they actually be game heroes because we still are offering the lifestyle quality we're still offering what we have to offer these businesses isn't within that so I think that we can play with the level I mean at the moment it's very attractive to the foreign direct investment coming to the country so the ink comes forward it says it's harmonizing there's a point made which is this that while we have a very obvious tax base for primal geniuses the French and other countries they give their incentives in more slur in more subtle ways I think at 13 billion we could put away half the money for rainy day or you might have to give it a process for all of Europe but you could put another half of money to invest in education because that's with the tech universe that happens very rarely it seems to me we're lucky to spend money this month it's in a very complicated it's quite a complex but it could be a choice but it seems to be enough Keen just now on my second set as well this idea of EU out there this bureaucracy now they want to come and take our tax as it was maybe we could remind them upstairs we're a part of the radio because it's going to be difficult to broadcast and Keen how would you square that circle how would you do that on one hand in the city or region why would anybody listen to them but I think it's important to see that not to see the EU as this very foreign one group of people around the table that is NAPs who are going and representing their people so people do have voices at the European table and a lot of the time voices in the EU who aren't actually engaging are you saying some of our NAPs are not using their voices I'm saying that people aren't engaging I don't see people don't engage in European politics for example to the level in which we engage in national politics most people probably are more likely to be able to name their TVs and they are either NAPs how have you failed to set it I think there's a two way thing in terms of responsibility there I do agree that the EU has huge communication problems that have a lot to do with climate, size, remoteness absolutely and we still can't get disclosure on expenses people do have problems with it yeah I don't disagree with all the problems in the EU as far from perfect but fundamentally I still think that if people don't engage and hold their TVs they're what's expected of course politicians are also going to do whatever they want there's nobody holding their hands on them but people can hold their politicians and the civil servants in the EU it's really important that people don't engage you mentioned defence do you think we should be more integrated and being able to be criticised in terms of European defence forces and it's not really that we call it something else do you think we should be more integrated in a defence capacity that's the right bit of the question really because it is about priorities on one hand if we do integrate more and a lot of people say a lot of people say that the neutrality we have is kind of a little bit fanciful because really we would expect to be protected if for example an aggressive country came and invades are and tomorrow we would probably expect that our European partners would have to say it Kenny would never do that and that's like that again our neutrality does give us a huge global thing of the UN especially if you look at the role that Ireland has played in peacekeeping we're a very trusted broker we play a lot of roles both in peace deals around the world and Colombia and Israel and Palestine and a lot of that is because of being a fairer neutral country so I think fundamentally I know it doesn't sound like a real answer but this is a little bit of a question it's about finding balance between those two things and Kieran and Grace again something that Deccan raised you know and for farming community here in France is the single Plastic Cubes directive this is impossible the Chinese market's gone that this is your imposing piece which if not bankrupting some people makes a working life impossible for that we also have for instance the issue of emissions and the bogey word fines rather than compliance how do you as a Green member and Kieran is the main director of the paper which many farmers read here what do you say to that farming community when they go here's what the EU is trying to do to me now there's two things one is the emissions and we do have we have signed up to the Paris Agreement so we do have obligations and it's not it's not just for the local community and the national it's an international agreement so we have an obligation and we have to meet that obligation how we do it to me is a matter of communication so the different sectors there has to be engagement so farming community which is a huge community in hand and very important to our family they have to be involved in the the innovative techniques to offset so you're saying to a farmer you might use this but we're going to give you something else here I was thinking like Rob Castle sort of engine for that area last time it was asked to the AGM and farmers there are saying to me that they recognise that at the moment their heart is active and they do recognise it and the difficulty with regard to having supplied farmers and they're recognising the drought they're recognising the rains they're recognising the changing environment and they are saying to me that they're on raised the bottom so I'm then turning to the government and saying how are we going to square this up how are we going to make this work for a farm and how are we going to make it work for the economy and then in terms of in terms of plastic I mean you you addressed it in your opening statement about seeing the plastic on the beach you know there is for instance this huge community involvement in the whole plastic dilemma that's out there at the moment because we have created I mean we've an industry has created manufacturers have created environmental crisis in terms of plastic we really think of a problem in our houses and when we have an industry at the moment you have the Greenswoods project so it's working in building awareness and building some grassroots up but we do have a problem there's no doubt about it why should we be nice when there's 25 million people in China and they do it and they say listen we ain't buying into that stuff we keep producing really yeah look I mean we used to film plastics on China, China's becoming more advanced rapidly growing economy and they've got to respond saying no we don't want to be plastic so if you look at the technique Europe has invested in is what they call the global challenges like trying to change our environment, try to plan you can look at these positively or negatively you can look at them in the case out this isn't preventing us from doing what we used to do or you can look at them as an opportunity at the moment these directives put the focus on how we do research and innovation and how we find new solutions and alternatives to plastic is something we have to do but there's another more important debate if you look at emissions, if you look at environmental and environmental impact there's really a huge opportunity in farming and agriculture of becoming a green agricultural country the one challenge globally is the challenge of producing sufficient high quality food and food security and we're in a country that has more cows than we have humans and maybe when we went into Europe in the beginning we were focusing on that green element and that high quality food production we went the other way so I think the industry in Ireland understands talking to I mean I have a research project which is all around smart agriculture and addressing these areas and I think there's a realisation now that we can produce high quality milk, high quality meat on green over there which factory farms can't produce and this is what the only people are looking for we're going to have to scale down I mean Ray Robinson saying the huge green production and Grace mentioned the earth size and we did see the product crisis so Farham is bringing it to the show saying excuse me we're screwed here what are we going to do admitting there was some kind of agreement but how do you square that sir? well you see the part of what we're trying to do we're planning about knowing in advance what you need it's about investing in you know in advance the thing about the last year being a particularly good frontier in terms of the climate and the sunshine I mean you talked to farmers over the farmers they didn't tell you that that happened well 30 years ago definitely so sometimes we look at and we say oh this is this is a change that's happening and that we're going to have to deal with it permanently the whole idea behind what we're trying to do is to use science to give us special tools to manage the agriculture and economy so that means looking at ways in which you can have less emissions by changing the type of things you give animals by looking at how you use water more effectively so what I'm trying to say is that this is a challenge which Europe is addressing and you know, through science and innovation there's a huge advantage for our because we are a green economy but you know we need to shift towards a situation where we're using the knowledge to become a green economy okay, I'll do that I'll do that I want to come into care now I've heard of people on piltons a lot of families here have their own water they couldn't depend on meat for the moment they also maybe need to create their own energy a lot of families could maybe become self-sustaining in a number of ways and it's done a lot of work it needs to be invested Keenan want to put something to you before we go to Argentina I was reading different comments by some of the leaders in Europe and the President of the European Council Donald Tusk who was saying these fantasists, naïve he called them, who had an idea about European integration that's poppycock the greats mentioned there do you know the EU shouldn't be just a collection of trade agreements but Tusk, the President seems to be saying that so what I hope is there for this great European dream and we're going to apply to this homogenous unit that they're all together when you've tossed on the east and I think particularly what you mentioned about the EU is not having protection and the rise of right wingers the rise of populism there isn't really any great EU there's been such a question because a lot of people when they're talking about this question there's such a thing as a real EU identity or the European people citizens for example where you have a group of states that came together built a federal government and people say why can't don't we work like that, why are they so cohesive, you don't hear that much about states saying do we really want to be part of America that doesn't happen in the United States but you have to really think about it in terms of the time frame the EU as we know it was only set up in 1972 it's 25 years old the United States was set up over 250 years ago and in that meantime they had a civil war over this very question of the rights of states versus the national rights and it was about 100 years before the Americans accepted the dollar to be their currency they still have debates over the idea of a national language in the United States and they've been doing this for 250 years you know so I think that the EU needs to be careful to not get ahead of itself and think that you know we have an end goal which is more of a harmonized and cooperative union and therefore we should do it today you know it has to be done in steps and it has to be done at a level that people are comfortable with but it also then people need to be patient and find a level of integration that works for the people because the change happens too quickly as we've seen with a lot of things whether it be agriculture, whether it be trade in Greece most people agree but it happens too quickly in her people and there was a great question raised earlier you know why did and it's easy to say which I do sometimes always the old empire mentality but large Swedes are thinking of Northern England in certain constituencies people dis-possessed, disenfranchised and that's true in Greece they must have had a reason to vote in Italy well personally I think they were calmed by mostly the British press also a little bit of British government but there is there is terrible in all of the Indian and Kingdom and that's an issue of government policy that's fiscal policy and structure the UK was the company or one of the countries that was most against the idea of having more integration of fiscal policy and there was an unequal government countries in the EU so I really think that's scapegoating of the EU by British government so this stage the EU seems to be a proper time right this stage I want to open it up to our audience we'll be recording this for those who are on the stage today we record the program and anybody who wants to come in there and if you just give your name and if you represent a part of your group you'd have to know too thank you and my little legions I'm hoping to get a nomination for the election I suppose I want to make a couple of points and if you keep it short we don't have time for it and I'll get it to be talked to you but I also am chairman of an organization and just to make a few points on the agriculture back in 1998 we had 7.6 million livestock in the country today up until the start of 2018 we had 6.7 sorry it's not the fact that we've changed livestock in the country it's consolidated in areas the other point of that is we have 25,000 farmers in this country who have some apart and those farmers have been treated disgracefully by this country and by you because the designations have been chased on their land back we say go back to the the parliament in 1992 all up to the kinhari area which could be 169 house takers of land and so on the point I want to make is basically when we're looking at climate change when we're looking at our environment and how things have coincided with your land then we can't we have to start reinforcing money for farmers in these margarine areas to mitigate against the climate change because they can't compete on the markets of producing livestock and stuff like that I thought on the other area just one question I thought was the key in regard to the overall European area we have yet to see as a result of the elections over the last five years what shape the European Parliament's going to take in different groupings and we've sent the tree seeds and if he's going to move from Britain and there are three different parties main tree different parties and 68 so it's just what it is to do with the configuration it's actually very interesting and Arden's actually getting two of those seeds which is a bit... we're going up from 11 to 13 but the European Parliament elections are really interesting and it's something that is going to be one to watch and one big question is how French President Emmanuel Macron aligns himself within the party structure and it is very interesting but I think that you're going to see probably the most likely thing is it's going to be a more divided Parliament thirdly I think it's going to be a bit more of the left and right and a bit more division but it creates the point what they haven't had to act just destroying and so destructive it's interesting you mentioned the Burn area because that is one of the areas Burn Rio and Kevin Delford from Don Gavine did the research and created a great opportunity for the farmers in the Burn region recognising the constraint of their land they actually turned the whole situation and created new business small business like the perfume they created true sustainability in the Burn so that's one that's one area that's a bit it's kind of horrifying over 50% of the Burn is not eligible for payments on the can there we say if you talk to them if you talk to them probably they're getting is great and it's an incident the overall amount of money they're getting is very industry compared to the challenges they face that's something to report reflection I just want to make a point when you talk about the habitat and you talk about the impact of farming on the environment we have benefited from the fact that the Chinese have something important leaving formula from New Zealand because of the impact that farming on the environment and the direct beneficiary of that is down the road is Glambia so we have to remember we are part of the global economy people want to know where the food is coming from people want to know what the impact is having on the environment and you know if we don't try to find some through technology and through science somewhere balancing the habitat with food production the rest of the world won't buy our products who's next here if you want to be and again just try to keep it short maybe in the form of a new question thanks thank you thank you very much I have no comments on the power inside of this I think back into what I would call a brass axe the ordinary man and woman in the street and we talk about Europe and this great European project and we have free movement and free movement of labour and some of the key payers yet in Ireland we find that our banks charge interest rates and mortgages way above what happens in Europe and we find that very hard to take and the ordinary people have to accept what our council represents we also have the current insurance and so on we can't pay it like that so it seems to me and it seems to lots of people have said we are there we are obliged to follow the whole of European rules when it suits Europe but it doesn't suit we can't pay the money to benefit such as the ones that just know me and this is just for ordinary people that have grown a little trying to manage, trying to manage that I have said to me the Europe project in their ways is a failure because we take all of the rules but we don't do a simple kind of balance there's a very good question which maybe we can put right across the panel if we take for instance the issue of banks and interest rates where we get huge and the giant value is over and made the point and a temperate psyche carry on and so forth yeah, yeah is that cured and we come to our premise but is that a failure of the Europe or is it a failure of Irish governance or regulation state policy they're trying to protect the weak banks and give them better margins because of all the bad debts are these the weak banks that made billions of profits this year no, they're the weak banks from 10 years ago but anyway, they're trying to protect a bit of it can I have a minute Rob Cass and that because you will make the points with that as well just get a microphone there Rob Cass, I have a question on Marthi that state policy and interest rates are set by the Irish Central Bank it's not the EU so EU's borrowing rate is 0.4% it's Irish Central Bank policy with a rate of 2.5% so Irish banks and Irish profit in Europe and at a 2.2 billion profits in Europe and it's a state policy now EU policy and it's also state policy Irish state policy common interesting that the EU regulatory divisions came over here and made the offices of the Irish insurance companies when our own regulators did not do that I think that's credited to the EU that's a communication which has been perceived that when you are enforcing these policies in fact it's Irish state policy I think the insurance is where you have the common culture here you wouldn't be editing that but here's something about the common culture though here and it does very briefly that when you look at the profits of the insurance companies here and I looked over this part of the new period I posted research on this and it goes into billions and that the common culture, those awards yes they're hard and they're restrictions but there hasn't been a massive increase in the total amount and yes insurance companies had a huge increase in profits huge increase in premiums I think there's a bit more to the spring which a lot of media buy bolts down to the quick flash why wouldn't they, the blue book why wouldn't the central bank see those figures in ordinary insurance companies are obliged to publish them here they're not I think it's an easy one for both to get on that this is the second lot of players they don't really fight the problem there's some pro-reses too Keen you want to commend, yeah at that point I would say that's just kind of a typical example of it's easier to name people than organized industries but yes there isn't the same idea of a consumer or a citizen group that just goes to the policy level with the problem of bodies who are of I think charity is the only reserve to try to do that I have a big question there when we think of the EU and I'm a big fan of the environment in 12 countries in 20 years time our kids are going to be impacted by these policies that we choose so when Willy talks about the digital economy I want more talk time on blockchain because that's going to be blockchain blockchain is essentially solved with the problem that you've got obviously the paperwork actually makes it all digital and it's going to be estimate so it's going to be about 30% of trade by 2030 which is three times the size of the agriculture community for today in Ireland so that's when we talk about opportunities and risk the opportunities we're all seeing the awkward to lead on through what Willy does on the digital and then to how do we apply it first to ourselves to help Deckey and our own businesses and the farms that are here the second is they have to do the largest trading group in block that is the world which is the EU and then compete start to compete internationally against China against the US because that's collaboration and competition we can do that so I would like to say how do we apply those ideas like blockchain and then I want to say the poor farmers that have me communication that in the EU they will fund renewable energy John, Kenny, MEP came here and very impressive made loans available for farmers to invest renewable energy we haven't taken them up we, Ireland, haven't taken up those loans because currently right now in the south-east there's about a billion of solar pipeline to be executed a billion of investment for and the south-east that isn't being connected that's not the EU that's Ireland that billion of investment is 4,000 jobs in the south-east that is not the EU policy that is the state's policy so if I turn around to Deccan he said would you like 4,000 extra jobs and would you like this is education on renewables Deccan would you like 10 grand a NECA from a renewable solar pipeline because the EU is backing that and the EU is funding that 10,000 a NECA Deccan would you like that would you take this I should apply that, that's right now all right, okay, I just want to go Willie, how do you plan that? yeah, I think we're a smaller country we're the most open economy in Europe and we've the young population one of the great decisions this government did make was when the European countries came into Europe we opened our borders for access to new emerging countries we benefited from that and the UK did the opposite so coming back to Brexit it's laying the suspicion of foreign and suspicion of these hordes and masses coming from the EU so what I'm going to say is we have a huge advantage and we're not everything in Europe Europe are giving example very few people know this but Irish indigenous companies imply more people in the US than the US companies apply in Ireland that's right so we're hugely innovative we've great started companies but why are they all going to US why aren't they going to Europe why aren't they now at the EU because it's difficult and Europe is trying to address this at the moment true it's policy on open innovation it's very complex to set up a branch of a company across Europe and different countries the fact is that we do have a market now with over 300 million people we are a small economy we're a highly educated economy and I think that we have to protect against replicating the UK models we've got people all over the world we have to embrace your needs who want to come here there's 190 different nationalities that's amazing and others so what I would say is yes Rob we should be early adopters that's the other thing I'd be trying to say why aren't we early adopters of technology why don't we imply them in our community beforehand and you know I'm going to talk about Waterford and the future becoming the best small indigenous city in Europe okay all right John there at the back there John there I was just thinking with the capacity of the First World War the hearts of everyone's ways and I was thinking about 20 odd years when we were canising in the drone and the house we slept in had a steam full of dollars on the windows had a cage on the stairs we went up on the attic and we stepped on the beds and under the beds there were sheets of steam because the company was so big that's how we had to leave to kept safe and we had to be brought from the centre so we could be zipped so we wouldn't be given no and it might be more easy to borrow the farmers don't want to borrow the businessmen don't want to borrow the actions don't want to borrow and a lot of them the owners don't want to borrow and I think to see the the things that the UK kind of drags back that they want to put a barber post I can't see any scenario if you put a barber post or you put it close to those people or you start going with the ropes and stuff you can cross them I can't see any scenario where you won't have trouble there but I think it's an ultimate way John, do you not think that when you take someone like Martin McGinnis who had the ability to form alliances with the likes of Ian Paisley I think that Sinn Féin has suffered from not having a McGinnis who might step in and say we need some form of confidence here we've got people here at the most critical time we don't even have our assembly working isn't there someone but I brought the DEP and that's been hiding but I'm Sinn Féin to step into, John just to make my own work in the city here I was at the one British Canadian white man I went down to see him I was a very good friend of Martin McGinnis and his policy always was politics is very simple everything is to take your people to a better place and I can't see this whole project of the EU taking us back to anything but a worse place and the other issues I have on this that's a big statement to me I can't see anything this EU project how can the EU project which has support for the normal I mean the re-imposition of bars and divisions John, you didn't ask my question which was this is that why doesn't Sinn Féin make an effort to fill that factor to put aside, you know which McGinnis and Giannis did to degrees to put aside huge resentment to whatever against the other community for the safety of people this is what we need to do now get some form of government going in Northern Ireland and we could see the Brexit now and we played the long game like we always do and we can't see a time when we should tell our own sisters in the arts or our own brothers or our own sisters that they shouldn't have their rights to a bar and we can't ever stand by any bar and say you can't be a second-class citizen and that's why I think it can unravel and I think if the peace unravels I think our children's industry will unravel I think the investment will unravel and that's the EU spot I have with it I think we made all the stories I think people see for what it is now people who didn't want peace in the first place are now in this position where the only project they have is a... three times I've said and it's a very simple question we're not one person with ancient fame where it's Mary Lou and where it's Michelle and say you know what we've huge problems with the GUP the Irish Times, the various things but we need to be governing an ordinary now we need a strong voice we need an ascending at this critical time and the very very point of the housing is at this critical time we don't have a problem with the GUP we don't have a problem with the GUP the SDMP have a problem with the GUP everybody in the world has a problem with the GUP they set the GUP and that's the problem the problem is the GUP that they won't put it on there's a thing called pinky outside the box door if you stay in that paradigm I better move it on a bit thanks for that just because it's time but thanks for your contribution gentlemen here I was just wondering we thought about the lack of engagement of maybe the average citizen with the European Union and I was thinking in terms of elections we do have the European Parliament elections and they are important but like you say people know their TV they wouldn't be able to name their MEP and I was thinking is there any scope in the future kind of across pan-European election of the type like we have the European Council President he's talking Dr. Thurston he's the European Council President so that rule could be filled by popular election it was possible to have obviously in terms of someone with a multilingual skills who could campaign across different countries okay let's put that to key just wanted to get to you they're trying to do that at the moment but it's for the European Commission President of the European Council the current European Commission President was the first time they did it and basically the European parties which are kind of collections of the national party so each national party is a member of the European party and they select a candidate a lead candidate and they it's not a popular election in the same way you know a presidential vote would be it's maybe a little bit closer to an election for a prime minister where the the person you vote for selects their candidate but you already mentioned maybe a couple of issues with this although there are a lot of things to be said an issue of violence for example is there any one person that can speak the 30 languages and the EU is a big problem and will somebody realistically vote for somebody that can't speak their languages could that be a representative so those foundations are really important but I think what the EU is doing right now is actually really great which is just experimenting and seeing what kind of model is working and not to be afraid to say okay this element of it worked in the last election and so but this didn't work so let's see how we can rearrange the experiment, the EU in a lot of ways but I think you're asking the right question about how can we get people more engaged and the EU isn't afraid to say that last elections weren't good enough so let's do it in a different way Ciarán Pena-Ciñera doesn't John Haran make a very good point to that you have this whole EU system and that one I suppose a minority like the DUP can hold the whole thing off what does that say about the system itself the whole thing in fact the EU in the way it's predicated and the EU was trying to do conservatism is different factions and SNP and so forth but for all the grandeur and the might of the EU that this one group can hold it up I think you've got to tease out their arguments I mean Ciarán Pena-Ciñera with the farms voted for and you've got to bring logic to their faces put them on the spot and not to have them just pump out the rhetoric that's what you've got to do that's what you've got to do okay anybody else we have the front and we and the lady over here and we'll make those last three now because I know we're approaching finish time my name is Ciarán Avery I'm Ciarán Pena-Ciñera thank you very much but based on my own personal experience I say two things I say it is sad news that Brexit looks like it's going to happen we're actually going to lose an ally and friend and we're going to have an inter-trading relationship with Britain and there are also risks down the line about the way in which the calm travel area has worked up to now there's been a huge safety balance historically during bad times here think of people like that we want to keep these things so I say that one of the things we need to do with the future is rebuild the relationship with the British I think there are a lot of feelings over there maybe it was on my mind but I think we need to look to that Sean do you think the abrap was a bit triumphalist when he came up saying that I don't think he tends to be triumphalist but it certainly played a way for the British to have that but to be fair to him they never missed a chance to do that so I'll pass on with that I wanted to talk about an opportunity to talk about something to the panel I think the superpower of today the economy is still in the States but the emerging superpower of the nation we're talking China Japan even though it's an 80s society but it has huge economic power and demand potential for us Indonesia vast populations of people hungry for education and other products to learn I'd like to ask the panel can this region capitalize on this emerging superpower and pull some of that power in our direction and in that specific regard I would suggest that the single thing that this region could do is secure university status to pull in students and academics formation and China is not afraid OK, thank you OK, thanks for being Sean and your great experience it's nice to have that few Mr. John Hannigan was in my program last week making the point that there's about 3,000 Chinese students some of whom, and again really we have to look into the facility and the infrastructure and the support you need great to answer Sean's question there how do we pull that and get into that massive market I suppose one is the pulling and one is the advantage of Europe in terms of Erasmus projects and Science Foundation we export our own people to Asian countries to bring home the knowledge let's say to get the experience but obviously if we have the university status it will be more interesting for students to come here because the IOT we're doing really well in terms of competency and there's a huge where it's a knowledge drain really it's true now true now too long and too short and I say that carefully because I came to Waterford in 1996 so I've been fighting for university status since I've been there and started before me and we know how that battle has been but let's be very, very, very careful I am 100% behind the university 100% permitted but unless we have the investment that goes with the university we're on the road to failure to be caught the reality is we are in a student technology and we perform the way of our position in terms of our research in terms of ventilation in terms of monthly credit and you saw over the summer times you're the head of at least one university but once you're a university you have to be a university of international standing to attract the type of companies to attract the type of students I've just come back from China what I was doing over there I was visiting universities and those universities choose their partners based on the picking order and we are very, very lucky because we punch it over ways in the partnerships we have because we were one of the first people to China so what I would say is the university is something that we hear clearly loud and clear we are working hard to deliver the university delivering it in a timely fashion but if the investment does not come following that or even before, right we are going to experience what the UK experience the UK converted all of the students into universities and now we have good universities and we have poor universities the regions that have poor universities are suffering economically and a lot of them are in regions where people voted no so be very clear and we should be clear to this government and other governments a university what comes to the university is responsibility to the government to provide the type of investment that will allow the university to be the university otherwise I guarantee I am doing all that is required from the press is there not a case like Keen and others and we said about access and we mentioned the rising fund and if our own culture is dodgering or is not are there any European avenues in Keen is that an area where we are not giving a competitive advantage where we can get more EU investment I think it is important you know the China for example and some of the digital issues let's take one of the biggest growing technologies which is the idea of artificial intelligence and there is a big race at the moment between the United States and China to become leaders in artificial intelligence and the criticism of the EU is falling behind because there is an important response and I think the EU still even though it doesn't have nearly the same number of people and hence data as China and even to some sense is the United States and I think what the EU can do and what our needs to be involved in straight away is having a coordinated set of standards and that's where the EU is actually quite good at leading things with trade policy and with even agriculture and environment policy the EU will not always allow short term economic gains to be at the expense of having high standards for citizens, for workers and I think it is really important that we are part of the coordinate of your response because we can actually be leaders because you will know this I guarantee in 40-50 years, countries like China and hopefully when they democratize a little bit the people say ok we actually want to be our government to be high standard and the EU will be the leader of that and we already are and in a lot of data protection issues with our new data protection other countries are copying the EU regulations even I am conscious of the time we have there was a lady over here and then a gentleman there and we finished up with the two of them Thanks Anna, my name is Cleo Ruffin and I am the Green Party and I was also glad to hear you kick off with the plastics and I am very glad to Europe for a point that I just want to bring the balancing of these plastics because governments we don't seem to have the political will for it in this country but my question is if we go around to functions like this why or why or why are we presented with plastic bottles of water? not at all I was at a function in America and I gave him an earful about it because we had plastic bottles and plastic and the receptors and that one the one work center here in Waterford ran a really good campaign on value plastics and reducing plastics in the businesses in town they got everybody on board they got a 5 point plan passed by the council to reduce the use of plastics at the risk of sounding immigration it was very nice to come in on such a quote and I would be grateful with a heart probability but please can we get rid of the plastic bottles and such a question Ok, we would say that's the museum from Piper's right are those gases plastic? I don't know Yeah, Kessie I have a question Just go back to Sean's question there if they got more foreign students somebody's investment to get a return if they go more prepared they could sell 100 million to get a lot of foreign students to get a return but sometimes the model is the government says that cardiac here shows the demand and then we give them money with nervous people if your institute or university has not got the infrastructure, the capacity the staff, the funding and you bring people over to Woody's Punch you would go back, you would fail so surely we do need the money first if we go a bit there's a gentleman here just to finish off nice to meet you my name is Raul I'm Spanish so I do like the opinion and I myself I am used to the three movements right and left Raul, how did you come to Waterford? tell me, how many people can tell us what brought you to Waterford? I'm a medical device engineer working in the medical device industry probably that's yes I have a question that I do recognize that some regulations is needed to keep everything working but is there a party in Ireland asking itself is how much integration is too much? how much regulation is too much? integration integration, sorry well, relations are a consequence of integration I think so you're saying Spain has had a migrant crisis you know on your shores and so forth what's your point what are you actually saying, are you saying there's too many immigrants coming in because I'm not quite sure what you're saying again how much integration is too much? maybe there is no right answer to this question but maybe the answer is in the middle of Europe in a country that doesn't belong to the European Union Switzerland, I mean they have 26 cantons and each one of them has some autonomy maybe there will be some kind of something of their system maybe the answer will come by itself if you ask me about the immigration I would say who is coming in which numbers and why because what we don't have actually maybe 20% of the Spanish population right now is immigrants and most of them the country is working for them and the people working for the country no problem most of them but some of them can't integrate into the country they don't speak the language they don't have any skills and they're coming in a huge number that it's impossible to integrate so that would be my answer because you said integration and I push you in immigration because I think there are intrinsically things and sometimes the question that's put as a different theme underneath it and I think immigration might be one of those can you would you like to address that I'm not ready we'll be back after the answer I think that's up to how much it's not beneficial anymore the point of EU integration is really touching on a few times it's about doing things together that we just can't do by ourselves and there are so many issues but that is important for and in terms of digital but also in terms of climate change in terms of some people saying in terms of defence cooperation and when we started trading the things that actually you could do better by having different different countries doing their own policy that's the level of interest but is this essential does the role make a very good point when we look at right wing or when we look at the faith that's going to fall on Angela Merkel and her policy in immigration is that not a threat to this again this European dream idea that we have and it's the elephant of the year no actually I think but if you look at immigration it's not a threat to the European Union but all it is is the European dream and it's not working though is it which one is that okay it's also a share in the burden so in terms of migrants that were coming through to Italy into Greece into northern Morocco and still in place and maybe that the way it's being done is creating the problem so that's where you share the burden so that we in the other countries instead of having holding tanks on our holding areas those who need the support we need the employment but they can't be growing and we need the skills they're very important and it's very interesting because if you pay wage inflation and since they cut less people coming in and wages are going up and the farmers are giving out a case they're on it Ireland is a successful example of immigration because people come with skill sets and they're continuing to do that but wouldn't people in direct provision camps living off of that and that's a different question I think this is the problem is that we need to solve most people want to live in the wrong country they don't want to come to a place where they don't speak the language where they feel alienated the problem with the migration is the cause of that globalization is a cause and we need to address globalization in the negative sense globalization as a positive sense but what I mean is that we've got to look at how to create employment in those countries create sustainable society the very same thing that Europe is trying to take for Europe the second thing is when the direct direct provision is the pollination because you have people spending years and years and years I mean we get an example we get every week requests from people who are in deep care centers who can't go to third level education they can't take their child so but Europe cannot solve problems of the world or what Europe can do in the US and other areas is to look at how we address the cause of this mass migration because it's an economic migration in the name and what globalization has failed to do is to create sustainable societies and other business war so Europe has to be much more let's say play a much stronger role at addressing some of these key problems so you care yeah there was that I say it was over had a fallen population perpetrated down and Germany took in a lot of heat because they really needed increased skill and they needed to work for sure so if had dollars to be in anything absolutely okay and I have a very different conflict a lot of people didn't try to use humans so do you mind if we just get the microphone because we'll record this and we're going to get to you oh sorry we're not going to bring in children and students and help them be out of our economy but the last couple of years and plus French students and Spanish students come in here for the summer in the early English just as good to our economy I mean I know certain families depend on it to call we have to afford to send our kids back to school and send them back so it's income to all of them even from the city's point of view here every Saturday if anyone had lost you I had a message for years in Austria and there were a pleasure to have them for a pleasure though we're still in contact with some of them someone called back and said this is my way of life I need but a power for that from the city's point of view we'd send every Saturday all of them and it's fantastic to see them at the kids buses, the students come at every Saturday to spend their time in the city we're doing this for a living and it's helping to ensure that you don't benefit the families and why you're sitting and for the world to come it's essential to keep that work and support the cause of everything alright we're going to wrap it up I want to thank as well everybody who found the Institute of International and European Affairs particularly Stephanie the last one thank you very much a big thanks to our panel it's been a long evening but I think it certainly has opened my mind up to a lot of different things I want to thank the big thanks to Darren, Mary, Artie and indeed all the guys here from the Institute who made this possible tonight and thank you for joining us