Okay. Thank you. My name is Hueslipen. I'm a Debian developer and I'm talking about multimedia assets that are licensed under the new general public license. And why am I giving this talk today? Well as a Debian developer I package some software including a few games and there were two games called Blobars and Starfighter that I packaged for Debian and all as well for some time and then suddenly someone found out hey this game it's in the Debian main repository so it should be all free and open source and swan. But there's some music and images that are being used in the game and they are actually not free. And then you can talk about oh what is free and not free. Well it was so bad that there was some music for example that explicitly had a copyright headset all rights reserved nothing. So you didn't have any license to spread around the music for example. That's a big problem if you have this in a distribution because you are spreading it around so you're liable then. So I started walking together with my wife to replace music and sound for these games from free sources. Nowadays you can get many creative commons licensed multimedia from like OpenGameArts.org it's a nice website. But the game engines are usually written well they are licensed under the GPL it's very common. So I thought why not use the GPL for the multimedia as well. So in my outline of the talk I will talk a little bit about the GPL itself and then what do we have to think about when you GPL multimedia. I will give you an example of some GPL music and then we'll give some conclusions. But first I will tell you why do we want to use the GPL as a license. It's very nice because it ensures first that everybody can spread around your work and they can use it freely. It's a very basic thing. Second of all everybody is allowed to make changes and redistribute them so they can fix bugs they can add features they can help out in other ways and spread out their results. What's also very nice is that the GPL enforces people who do this to distribute their change sources under the same license. So it's not that these nice properties the first two are taken away. So there are other licenses for example BC license maybe even Creative Commons by license that allow you to take a work modify it and then give the result of that but not give the original sources back to the community. And the reason why we have these properties is what I already said is that the source code must be made available. Okay now you think okay your source code what is source code I know source code for programs but let's have a look at the GPL license and I've taken two small pieces out of it. The first is the definition of what is source code. So if you have a work then the source code is the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it. So if I'm making an image and I have I do it in Inkscape for example I have some vector graphics program then as the designer of some of the image the vector graphics is the source code whereas the object code or any non-source source form of the work is any results you create from this for example if you export your vector graphics as a bitmap image then that is a non-source form of the work. Later it says that you also have corresponding source code for work meaning everything that you need to generate install run modify the things that you do because if for example you make an image you have some vector graphics in this SVG but if Inkscape itself would not be free software then it's certainly very difficult for for me to pass this to someone else and have them have the ability to change your vector graphics. So everything you need to go from source code to end results should be free as well and preferably have this source code available for that. So okay now we have this definition of source code from a GPL how can we apply this to multimedia so it's actually very easy you just have to make the preferred form of modification available you have to ensure that the file final project product can be made with free and open source products. So you have to include all the scripts and tools that you use to make final products so that's it easy right? Well then you start thinking and I think well let's say I have an image I took with my camera from some scene outside what is the source of that is that the scene outside well no no no we we are only concerned with the digital world so once you take the image the the image file that your camera produces is the source the same thing with music for example if you make a recording of a live band and you get permission from them to redistribute your work under the GPL for example then the recording is the source and not the band themselves. We also don't require perfect fidelity if you think oh I have the source code it must be the the originals then you think well if I take an image with my camera should it be the raws or the JPEGs if you have music should it be the original WAF files or maybe the flag compressed the lossless compressed sound or can I just distribute an ORC for this file well we don't really care that much as long as you can still modify it in a very easy way we also don't require the whole history think if you you take some GPL to work for someone else like they made a movie for example and you just want one frame from this movie because you don't use this as the backdrop for your game for example do you have to include the whole movie as the source code for your game no it's it's fine to take an excerpt of a larger work you don't have to have the whole and do history for example of some file and because then it would quickly become unreasonable so use common sense in doubt you can look at how we do it for source code of programs because we have so much experience with that and then some things that you should not to do oh wait where is that one sorry sorry I first some examples of source code so for images if you have a vector art then for example the SVG files can be the source files if you have a pixel art then try if you use the GIMP for example you have the native GIMP file format XCF which preserves all the layers that you have and and things like that if you have a computer rendered art then for example if you make it in Blender or Poffrey then use all the source files for these programs if you have photographs then of course it's preferable if you have the raw files because you can do much more of them if this is the preferred way of working with it as you as an artist then yes this is definitely the source otherwise I mean there are cameras for example that cannot produce raw files and original JPEGs are fine as well for sound and music well if you have for example a band that is playing a number then you have different microphones and so on you do a multi track recording then you would say okay it's maybe all the original tracks that is the source because that is what you then work on you mix everything together you cut things as one but nowadays a lot of music is made on computers so you have software synthesizers you have sample libraries as one so this is what is the source if you have a digital Linux audio workstation setup there are some files that describe how all your components are linked together and how they view sound this is what is what should be included as source code but then you think okay for example you said I have a multi track audio recording well this can easily be many gigabytes of data if you have a movie this is even more so sometimes you think oh this is too big to distribute or sometimes it will take a very long time to for example render a movie this will take months on a computer cluster for example then try to find some reasonable solutions to solve this problem one of them for example is that you can make use of the written offer clause of the GPL that says oh you don't have to really always make the source available online but you can also make an offer available for someone to get the source from you for a reasonable cost so if you have gigabytes of data then you can say okay I can give you a cd via a post office post system for example maybe if it's computationally many can point them to the company or institute where you render the stuff so then they also have the ability to go there and do the same thing you did pay some money and have them render for example your files and now I will give an example oh oh what not to do yeah that's first so you should not provide source code in a proprietary format I have seen a documentation for example for an open source project where the documentation was written in a word well nowadays we have open office which can maybe read it but this is not really the preferred thing also don't do anything that requires proprietary programs to to process so you have maybe open standards file formats but then the tools actually make use of them are not free I avoid using commercial fonts for example or image and sound libraries for which we have to pay to get it and also what I've seen sometimes is that people say ah I made some music with some software synthesizers and I have the corpus file as a result and yeah no you want the original source files no because I say the corpus files are the source it's not the preferred form of modification so that's a bit strange so if you think about doing anything of the above then maybe the gpl is not for you but I will give you an example of how to write music that can be gpld because we have the source code available and also I made this myself and I'm more of a programmer so while you could perfectly do it with graphical user interfaces like the rose garden for example to write your score and to well render it via software synthesizer I decided well can you also write music completely with a text editor so I will give three slides and in these three slides I will show you the complete source code of a piece of music and I'll try to play it as well I use some components because well I have some compires I'm going from abc midi of a music notation format to a midi file I use c sound to as a software synthesizer to render the midi file I use the fluid synth library and a general midi sound font for samples I process the resulting WAF file to an old corpus file I use a make file script to automate everything and I have two resulting object codes from this source code it's the soundtrack itself but they also get a pdf with the sheet music so what does it look like well this is the score of a small song I made I don't have that much time but if you can look at it you see you have like bar notation more or less you have letters from a to through g for the note and some numbers they didn't are durations of notes so this is my music notation and then this is my c sound software what is it software synthesizer definition it's also very short because I cheat a little bit normally you can build complex instruments from scratch from this but actually I'm using the fluid sound font engine that just loads some samples and uses that to render the music and then I have a make file that automates everything and one of the products that the make file makes is the pdf files with the sheet music that's for example this but now I will try to give a demonstration so I have a directory with my make file actually I have two songs but let's just build it so let's see if the sound works so you can forward one in the background that's a much longer one but unfortunately the source code of that one was too big for the slides so so these this music was made for a game a space game where you fly around in a starfighter and have to shoot down the baddies so this was a nice example can you find more examples of this online well I'm afraid I couldn't find that much which is actually licensed under the gpl but there is a lot of multimedia around with source code so the bender projects for example organize this once in every few years they create a movie and they make available all the sources for this movie so you can recreate it yourself or you can make changes to it buffray is a ray tracer they have a gallery where people can submit their source code and you can see the rendered image there's a website called shader toys dot com I think where people program openGL shaders and have that produce nice images and everything runs in the browser I just have a look at it tracker modules so for music that is very interesting because tracker modules are their own source code it's basically a combination of the music score and some samples and some fixed set of rules to play it and I guess there are many more examples and hopefully this will inspire you to produce some gpl multimedia of your own and then I look forward to seeing it yeah so final words it's certainly possible and even if you're not a person who is used to multimedia the way artists make it then there are still ways to make them make music and images in the programmer style okay thank you time for questions yeah yeah this is the first time you've worked with music no no I so I've been playing keyboards and pianos since I was five years old or so I wrote programs to produce music on in basic when I was very young even so the question was is this the first time I wrote music uh so no but uh this is actually the first time I wrote it as a source code this way so yeah yeah so that's a good question what if my source code is very big I have this I can make use of this clause to make it only available upon request but then all my heart I this question and I lost all my sources yeah this has happened before there are examples out there of people who did this uh and then yeah you cannot fulfill your promise anymore uh but you're the copyright holder so you're a bit special um but anybody else who has your end results and want to redistribute them under the same license they now have a problem um in that case I would say okay go to the original author uh and uh yeah make the the result available under a different license I mean then it's maybe the cc by license or maybe a public domain because then there's not much else that you can do yeah so I have a question about the um is there a relationship between gpl and creative comments or are they completely separate yeah that's a good question is the is a relationship between a gpl and the creative commons uh I think uh well the gpl was very old already um but the cc by s a license the uh shared alike uh and attribution license is the most similar to the gpl and I think uh it is inspired by uh people who already know the gpl I wanted something similar in the creative commons the only problem with it is that it doesn't make a distinction between source code and object code so it's easy to make some music and publish the mp3 files under the cc by s a license but you cannot really modify it anymore maybe you can make cut something or change the pitch or that's it but you cannot change some chords in the middle of the song for some it's more related to intellectual property as such if the creative commons licenses are more related to intellectual property um no I I wouldn't say so at least not more or less than the gpl is okay so yeah um so if let's say our our artists and our content creators use some proprietary tools for maybe like tile sets they use Photoshop because they knew it and it was quicker whatever um short of extracting those assets and different repository like hide them is there any other way we can distribute them in some way yeah so the question is if you have artists who use proprietary libraries or software to to produce the end results is the is there a way to extract everything you need so as someone who receives the work that you can still do everything that the original artist did that's hard to say because there are many libraries with samples for example or images out there with clip art that say okay you you can use this in your work if you pay for it but you're not allowed to reduce with the the library itself without any changes and actually maybe you you really want to have the original library to be able to do the same thing that the original artist did um but maybe there are situations where indeed you can use excerpts from this library and make them available under the gpl I don't know this is a case by case thing I would say that particular instances it's it's a tad hard even if like you will have your your artists yes that's a good question and I want to say something about that as well so what if you have artists they are used to their proprietary tools how can you convince them to switch to some free tools um well some of them might want to do it but one thing is that it's not always the case that if they use proprietary tools that you cannot distribute it as under the gpl because maybe there are free tools that can do exactly the same thing and then it's not a problem I mean if someone somebody does something in Photoshop then someone else can most likely edit everything in a very nice convenient way in the game for example um maybe not everything but uh maybe it's good enough okay I think I have to stop there thank you so much


Okay, so in this problem, we're wondering, what's the mass of zinc hydroxide? We know the mass of zinc oxide and, or zinc 2 oxide, I should say, and zinc 2 hydroxide, and water here. So the mass of water is 6.3 grams, the mass of zinc 2 oxide is 28.4 grams, okay? So if we know the law of conservation of mass, okay, the law of conservation of mass states that everything on one side of the reaction equation has to weigh the same amount as everything on the other side of the reaction equation. So all the reactants must equal, the mass of the reactants must equal to the mass of A, in this case, must equal the mass of B, okay? If not, what's happened? You've either created or destroyed mass, and of course, if you know Dalton's atomic theory, you can't do that, okay? So in this case, all we need to know is that the mass of zinc oxide plus the mass of water should equal the mass of zinc hydroxide, zinc 2 hydroxide. So this is a fairly straightforward problem because it gives you this mass and this mass. If one of these masses wasn't given and it asked you to figure out the mass of zinc hydroxide, you would actually have to do what we did in the last problem, change this to moles, go to moles of zinc hydroxide and then go back to grams of zinc hydroxide. But since we've got both of the masses of the reactants, we don't have to do that. All we've got to do is plug in values to this equation. So we've got 28.4 grams plus 6.3 grams that equals the mass of zinc hydroxide, zinc 2 hydroxide, so the mass of zinc hydroxide is 0.7. So hopefully that number is different than what you were putting on the computer and it'll work out the way.


ployment's made and folks come through, all right. You're all welcome to the Montpelier Police Department. We just need to help you through the process, not look to defeat you through that process. So this just gives a breakdown of where we're at. Again, please see the attached information to the packets, that's where we are on a police app. We also have things on there that talk about what our culture is, what my leadership philosophy is, because when I bring folks in, I want you to ask me about anything. What's my favorite color? Cats, what do I stand on this? Where I stand on that? Because if you're gonna work with me, you need to know that the person who is in charge of the department is going to meet your expectations. And I always tell folks that you don't work for me. I work for you. My responsibility is to get you everything you need to do your job and to trust you to do your job correctly. And to trust folks to be autonomous, I need to send them through a very rigorous hiring process. So again, and then there's another document for the states recruiting and hiring practices. Again, critical hires there. And the NDI, so there's some participation in some states and some municipalities across the country that folks who have been decertified in other states, they collect this information, but it's like anything else. It's like Niber's data or uniform crime reporting data with the FBI, you have to participate to be in it. So this is something that Vermont's looking to do with a lot of like Act 56 and other things that are coming down within law. How do we know that if there's a person in department A who's decertified for something, how do we make sure that person doesn't jump ship from this department and then come over to another community and start that same thing?  We've worked too hard to make sure we have a very good culture here. And then one of the other recent things that we're doing is with the Air National Guard now that they have a system that we've become a partner with them. So when folks join the Air National Guard and they're looking for like full-time work or other things like that, there's a list of other places, like I think the Vermont Teddy Bear Company, several other places, and the Montpelier Police Department's on their website, get ahold of us. There are personal emails are right there. You can email sergeants, the deputy chief, the chief and say, hey, tell me what this business is about. What's your culture like? So I'd like to, this is not directly related to the PRC. This is just, I wanted to take the opportunity since we're talking about recruiting and retention, I wanted to give the council a transition into the state of things right now within law enforcement. So I say this not to pile onto anything or to rebut anything that the PRC comes. This is entirely separate to give the background because things have changed even substantially since the PRC partnered with us to give us their feedback and their recommendations and advice. So since implementing police app, and that happened back in December 17th of 2020, we've only had 53 submissions to that. And we've only had five hires from that.  I make the joke, but anytime somebody's realistically inquires about the Montpelier Police Department, I'm gonna go after them like a pitfall. I'm gonna tell you everything that we have to offer, but ultimately, me taking from South Burlington, Burlington, Essex, any other place, it's the same problem statewide. I'm just taking, we're just robbing Peter to pay Paul. So I'm very cognizant and respectful of that, but three of those people have come from other agencies. So traditional ways of people coming in has only been two. And so basically that's a 3.77 on-board rate of already low numbers that are applying for the department. And then I also wanna take this opportunity to tick off whoever may be ticked off by it, but to honestly think or to say like Jeanette White in the state Senate has been talking about regionalization. A lot of folks have been talking about regionalization. I think we're at the point that serious discussions have to be had at municipal levels and at state levels regarding regionalization of law enforcement services. And well, I'll tell you why I mean that. So the national and state trends, PERF, the Police Executive Research Forum, which is one of the foremost experts on studying law enforcement, did a survey, 194 law enforcement agencies responded on workforce trends, and they found that only 93% of authorized on average of authorized numbers are being filled. Fewer officers are hired. Resignations and retirements have decreased substantially. 5% overall decrease in hiring rate from the previous years. Resignations saw an 18% increase from previous years and a 35% increase in a retirement rate. This is consistent with what we're seeing in Vermont, except for our numbers are worse than that with our percentages and hiring rates. And I say this is truth. I'm not saying this to throw bars because anyone who's entering into this conversation and pointing fingers is not helping anything whatsoever. We need to deal with where we're at. We need to partnership, be respectful of one another and move forward. But I'd be remiss if I didn't say that amongst unofficial law enforcement circles, people that I know from other places, people that I've been trying to recruit to come into the state of Vermont, Vermont is not a state that law enforcement want, that folks who already have certification want to come to. And there's a myriad of reasons for that. Housing, taxes, a lot of things that the council is struggling with on a day-to-day basis. But there's also a perception issue with relation to Vermont. And I tell them, I'm fine, we're where I'm at because my council supports me. And my council holds me accountable. My city manager supports me, but they hold me accountable. They have expectations as they should. They're a very, very significant job. But we have support. And that's what a lot of places can't say. So that's one of my selling points when I talk to people, I let them know what that is. So with this, the commissioner of public safety, a commissioner, Mike Shirling, had a memo back in 2021. And in that memo, we voiced concern about a staffing crisis within law enforcement in Vermont. And I'm here to tell you, there is a significant staffing crisis, not only here, but in the academy as well, who's probably down about 50%. They were understaffed to begin with, not about 50%. So with all due respect with everything they're struggling with, if I get somebody bringing to the academy, how am I gonna know that there's gonna be an academy class? We have, they're always sending out emails saying, we don't have an instructor to do this. Can someone come down and teach us or teach this course? So the crisis is real. The current level of hiring does not keep pace with our reported departures and the obstacles in hiring where a lack of qualified applicants and a dwindling number of applicants. And there's several different reasons why. So some numbers on that is this year, I'm sorry, in 2021, I believe the number I had, 75 retirees and only 23 people who entered in into law enforcement in the state of Vermont were coming out of that class at the time that I got that statistic. Looking at, in last year, there was a projected 102 people to retire, resigned. This year is a projected of 168 retiring and resigned. The average class is looking at about 25 people, if we can get them into the academy. So again, the academy's doing their best to work through this and we're all trying to rally around each other and trying to figure out how do we get through this? So of the commissioners in his report, I've cut, I've clipped some of the arts, some of the graphs here to give you a visualization, authorized versus actual officer staffing. This is back in April of 2021, is when this information was taken. The one in the bottom left talks about those who responded to the survey, what the staffing totals are, authorized funded positions, actual positions and who's actually available. So I can have 17 authorized positions funded. I can actually have say, I'm down two people. So now I have 15 people and of those two people, one person's down, one person's on maternity leave. So now I'm really only working with 13 officers in the department, which coincidentally, we don't have anybody who's out on medical or anything, but with folks who we do have level two and folks who just got out of the academy and still through the probationary program, we are realistically at 13 officers, including me, who's still a level two officer and I can't go out by myself and Nord keeps me on a choke chain so I don't get out the car. Does he have a pay, a low or just pay? He's only a two. I'm only a level two. So then the last graph talks about the available officer attrition by year. So these are some very obviously concerning trends and how do we as leaders in the state tackle this? So the next step just talks about some obstacles in attracting and retaining officers. We did a study, the Vermont chiefs of police did a survey of the estimated if you look like under Wikipedia or some other places, just like an unofficial number, 1300 law enforcement officers for the state of Vermont. I don't know how old that number is, but I think we have an estimated back then when we did it in 2021, 1100 officers. Of the 1100 officers in Vermont, no one in VSP participated in the study if I recall correctly, but 330 law enforcement officers took the survey. They were motivated enough to take a survey and they highlighted the following that only 28% of the respondents felt that they were supported. And again, this study is part of that part of the packet that only 28 respondents felt that they were supported a great deal or a lot by their respective communities. 65% felt little to no support by locally elected officials. Nearly 87% felt little to no support by statewide elected officials and nearly 89% felt little to no support by nationally elected representatives. So whether it's true or not, there's a perception problem. And as we are all in the public eye, perception is unfortunately something we have to combat what. So 95% felt that their concerns and voices were not being heard or respected in conversations regarding changes in policing. Nearly 50% believed their agencies provided little to no training, nor the resources or equipment needed to perform their duties and meet their responsibilities. 80% described overall morale and law enforcement is moderately low or low. 75% of respondents said they would not recommend policing to anyone as a career. Law enforcement used to be legacy. It used to be my grandfather with a cop, my dad was a cop, my mom was a cop. Now I'm gonna be, it's the legacies are saying no, don't go into the job. And nearly 72% stated that they've had conversations in their household or their support systems of whether they should remain in law enforcement because of the current climate. That's them going to family and that's family saying, I think you need to get out. So why are people leaving the Montpelier Police Department? In 2021, we implemented an exit interview program. Of this report, three staff members provide the report since then four members have resigned or retired from the positions and only one of those four participated in the exit interview program. His feedback is exactly consistent with the numbers that I'm going to discuss with you here. And I'll list a few things but the working conditions, they said our working conditions is good. Again, our council supports us, our community supports us, we're good to go. Salary, they listed it as poor. I want to say that the union said big kudos to Bill and Cameron and to the city council for stepping up and for making us competitive. And when I put this slide show together, it was stressed to me to make sure that the council knows that we appreciate what the council did and the value that the council is putting in to law enforcement. So I want to make sure that you all know, this didn't come from Brian, this came from other people. So communication with management was listed as either outstanding or good. Career advancement was listed as poor or that 33% is good. There's some things beyond our control that we can't deal with that. We're a small agency. But that again makes the case. Regionalization, how can I get somebody in succession planning? How can I get somebody promoted? How can I give somebody different responsibilities? How can I have a traffic? If somebody, if that's their spin is traffic, if somebody's spin is crisis intervention team, if somebody's spin is I want to go after people who do narcotics, drug dealers, how can I get them and funnel them and keep that fire lit on why they came into law enforcement? So benefits were listed as good. Again, this is, but now there's, in an environment that municipalities are looking to poach other municipalities, that's difficult. Since we've had our contracts, it spread like wildfire. I had chiefs saying, hey, I'm getting a whole bunch of feedback here. Everybody's saying that Montpelier really hooked up a very good contract with the union. Can I have it? Can I see yours? Send them there? I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm proud of where we're at. Then come to find out that those SOBs are like at the starting numbers or at the starting salaries, they're beating us on the salaries. So now we're right back again behind the eight ball because they're trying to out salary us again. So, it's public knowledge. I had to give it to them, but now I'll be a little bit more reluctant next time I do it. So the workload is again, it's good. We make sure again, that there's something to be said that every day I'm out there, I get a chance to interact with my community. I get a chance to help people and I also get a chance to make a difference. But not every night I'm dealing with somebody being shot. Not every night I'm dealing with parties from one end of the street to the other. So the workload here is great. Training opportunities and then work culture and morale. So moving forward, so I would say with this one, the only thing at this point that we can control for this solution is our ability to attract officers and keep them here based on our culture. So our current staffing numbers were a lot at 17. This is pretty much, again, this is what we're at. Realistically, we have two folks who are coming on. They're currently in level two training right now. I think they have one more week to go and that's another thing. It takes two weeks. You come out as a level two officer, two weeks. I can't be a gun, two weeks. But so again, this is an older slide. So while it takes time to fill these positions, then it takes time to get folks trained up to the point that they can go out there and work. So I will tell you for that second bullet there, our OT budget, this is the numbers have changed since I've done this slide. This is a regurgitation of the slide. Our budget is $123,000. For overtime as of April, we had spent $183 on the budget. Numbers we pulled earlier this week, we're at $212,495.29 in our overtime budget. And that's for a myriad of different reasons, but the officers are burned out. And we're trying to deal with that. And then there may be some reimbursement in those numbers because we do have officers on task force and we get reimbursed through the federal government. Just to be clear for people watching that, the largest part of that is for, because officers are filling shifts because we don't have the people. It's not above and beyond a full compliment of officers is people working overtime to make up for the lack of officers. Yes. And it's mutual aid assistance and it's also the academy needs somebody down there to teach now. For better or for worse, we're better off in a lot of other departments. I can name them, Hinesburg, Norwich, Battleboro, Berlin, Hartford, Burlington. They are very much worse. So I honestly don't think, in my opinion, I don't think that there are gonna be some places that are gonna survive within the next year or two with law enforcement, which is why mutual aid is gonna be so important. VSP is just not in the position. You've got captains now who are working patrol. I'm on patrol. You got captains who are on patrol and streets and working cases and investigations. And it's legit. And I'm not trying to be an alarmist, but I'm just trying to say it's legit. So again, I would encourage some serious conversations. I don't necessarily know if I have the right answers to those, but I would encourage some serious conversations and looking at what regionalization may look like and what mutual aid assistance may look like. Because sooner or later, we're gonna end up burdening a lot of help to neighboring communities. And that's where our budgets are gonna end up going to. Because Montpelier is not the type of place that's gonna say, ah, you're on your own. We don't do, especially in law enforcement, we don't do that. So again, I apologize. I kind of, not kind of, I rambled on a lot, but thank you all very much for your time and your attention with this one. And I stand ready to answer any questions. Or unless there's anything burning right now, I do wanna go to Alyssa.  But Alyssa, would you like to add anything at this point? Yeah, thank you for that presentation, Chief Pete. And I do appreciate the department's rigorous hiring process. I know it from being invited to sit on a hiring panel and hire two of your corporals, I believe. So I've seen it up close and personal and appreciate the rigor and thought and community orientation that goes into it.  I think the PRC's recommendation, I guess I will say here, in no way is an attempt to indicate that the hiring process happening right now isn't rigorous. So I'll just start with that. It was more the conversation, the thinking around the conversation was to allow flexibility to the department, which is why we didn't require an education. We agree that there shouldn't have been an education standard and that that could be difficult in terms of the recruitment. And so that's why we have the or in there where we say one year post-secondary education or life experience or internship experience. And I think the conversation was such that we wanted to create a broad tent, but we also appreciated some experience outside of, the idea that the brain is like fully developed at age 18 to come straight out of school and straight into a police force. And on patrol, we had done some research that indicated that life experience or the further any type of experience whatsoever, whether it be like life or community orientation, life on the job or community orientation or education, all of that led to a more resilient officer. And so we were, when we talked with some of the officers to get feedback on this proposal, I did personally talked with, I think it was four or five. And folks, we're torn saying like, yeah, I know we don't wanna close the door on we don't wanna make any recruitment any harder than it already is. And of course, if someone has a couple of years of life experience or community orientation or internship experience, they're gonna be a better officer, like without a doubt, but should we have that standard here? So I guess I'd leave that in your hands so the city council to figure out what to do with, but that was the sentiment behind, we know we want our officers to have a community orientation. We know that we don't want them, we know we want a resilience and judgment in that process. And thinking about having one year out of college, I mean, one year out of high school, maybe isn't such a far stretch around as a standard, but at the same time, we don't wanna be, we don't wanna be so restrictive that it causes recruitment problems in this current context. So I'll leave it to others to weigh in here. I know I have a couple other committee members, maybe they're members of the public, but the gist was we wanted the officers to have a community orientation have better judgment through some life community oriented experience or education and be equipped for the kind of the stresses that they're gonna experience on the job. Thank you. Questions for either Chief Pete or Alyssa or comments. Jack, go ahead. Thanks, Chief. There's a great, very interesting presentation. I just first I'll observe that regionalization is a whole different conversation. And I just have to say that I approach it with some trepidation, because in our work with the Police Review Commission and talking to members of the community and people who deal professionally with the Montpelier Police Department is that we look very good when we look at how our police interact with the public and our police force and our values are really very positive and what I wanna see out of the Montpelier Police Department and that's not true of every other police department that some of the people we heard from interact with and so was one of the real pressures or tensions I think is gonna be how do we preserve the values that we've tried to have our police department embody if our police department becomes part of a regional force. And so I'm sure you're thinking about that same question with regard to this particular issue of hiring qualifications. There was a lot, as you know, there's a lot of discussion about, well, how, what are the qualifications? How should we, how should we determine what should we be looking for? And I know that I went to the police app, the Montpelier Police Department police app page today and when we talk about our qualifications, we have high school diploma or equivalent as a minimum and then we have completion of college courses, military duty or relevant work experience desirable but not required. And so I'm just curious of the 53 people that we've had apply in the last couple of years. Are most of the people coming in with just a high school education or most people coming in with qualifications above that either a bachelor's or an associate's degree or other of the kinds of experience that we're talking about? Yes, sir, it's a very good question. I'll definitely be able to get you the correct percentage and statistic but I venture to say I think that the majority of applicants that we're having coming in do not have a college degree. There may be some with some college, there are a couple that I've specifically seen that do have college, but Sergeant Moulton and Chief Nortonson have been doing that pre-screening and seeing what those backgrounds look like primarily and normally when I see them or see what their backgrounds look like and what their education level was is normally when they get a little bit further throughout the process. So you think that having any kind of requirement for post-secondary education would screen out people that we want to at least be able to consider hiring? Yes, I think that there's that potential unintended consequence and like Alyssa was saying, there is no substitute for life experience.  I look at it from the same point. Who is gonna come to my house if I need some help or my wife, my daughter needs some help and where is that judgment level gonna be? Is this person going to be able to treat the community members like they would treat their own family and there's gonna be no substitute for that experience. So there is a legitimate concern there, there is a legitimate concern bringing somebody on and it's scary when I hear some of the old stories, oh yeah, I went through one day of an in-processing class, they gave me a gun and told me to go patrol the street.  But in looking and answering that question, I think that there may be a potential unintended consequence. I think by saying that we do prefer that and that's something that as long as that's in the back of our mind and we're looking for that because that does equate to life experience, that does equate to the ability to have a more sound judgment and to adhere to the culture that we're trying to set. So that is definitely a preference and I can tell you that if we're getting somebody who's coming in at a very, very young age, we take very due care and diligence and looking at that person's level of judgment. One of the people who must have been a defense attorney, one of the things he observed is within the Montpelier Police Department, we're not seeing a lot of angry young guys who are on the police department, which is obviously a very good thing. It's good, Trevor Whipple came two weeks ago to the office and gave me the, Brian, let's look at your liability, let's look at how many use of force instances have you been in, how many injuries, how many lawsuits and everything and we look pretty good. And he said, you guys are doing very well and especially that there's a difference in what I can see and I give that to the sergeants and the corpals and to the officers and staff and dispatchers themselves because they're policing that culture. It's not, I'm along for the ride. They're establishing that culture. That'd be a really interesting thing for us to see, I think just what's our track record, how many claims are made against us, that kind of thing. I don't think we, I don't recall seeing that as part of the police review process, but anytime they have a chance to see, well, what's the actual performance, which I'm sure we will look pretty good. Thanks, yes sir. Other comments or thoughts? Connor, go ahead. I would just like great presentation. It was good to hear from Alyssa too, because I think I got a better sense of the intent of the language. And I think, we'll probably agree with staff recommendations in some cases disagree in other cases. In this case, I think the language is a bit problematic there because it does seem like it's focused on the educational piece of it. And I definitely think a couple of things Chief is saying, bad outcomes when we overwork our force and bad outcomes when we limit the hiring pool there. So I would probably oppose this particular recommendation. I know like I hire a lot of campaign operatives, right? And you get some folks like with policy side degrees, some great universities and everything. The best ones I hire are like, ones who delivered pizzas like our bartenders because they do have that life experience. And I think that's getting to the root of like with the deputy Chief was saying there with, you can't make a bad person a good person, but I think you've shown that you've done a lot with people with limited experience who come on and become fantastic police officers. So I think that's just where my head's on this one. Carrie. Yeah, thank you so much Chief. This is a really great presentation, really informative. And I want to thank Alyssa as well for all the information that you provided. And my heart really agrees with the idea that we want to have those well qualified people as we can and the arguments for life experience and for a little bit of age. And I mean, I have an 18 year old son, I'm not sure I'd want him on protecting the public safety. He has lots of other gifts, but maybe not that one. And so I appreciate the sentiment of where this recommendation has come from. Yeah, it's gonna be always a very, very tough argument to make to me as a city counselor to convince me to step into a city agency, a city department and tell them something so specific as a hiring requirement. That feels like there may be times when it's appropriate for us to do that but would have to be under pretty extreme circumstances. I think that the police department knows what it needs in its officers. It knows the way to get that much better than I think that we do. So I'm not inclined to support this recommendation just on that basis alone. But also the information that we've received here is very compelling that even though there may be, there can potentially be some benefits to this additional education requirement. It sounds like they're probably fairly limited in a realistic sense. I've worked a lot in higher education including in the school that had a criminal justice program. And so I know that there's a huge variety of what comes out of that. There's no guarantees. And it seems like the potential drawbacks that you've described are very, very compelling. And so I am also not leaning in favor of supporting this recommendation. Alyssa does have her hand up. Alyssa, go ahead. Thanks. I was hoping to drop the language into the chat because I'm hearing from council members that you're taking away that there's an education requirement and that's not in the language. And so I want to just be really clear on that. And I would love to draft. I would just love to show you the language. And is there any way for me to drop it in there? Can I activate that? Or can we not do that? Unfortunately, we can't activate the chat. Okay. Would it be okay if I just read you the two sentences that is the recommendation just so people have it in their mind? And I understand the sentiment and I have a suggestion that I think kind of threads a needle here that for Chief Pete to consider, but I do just want you to know what the recommendation is before you vote on it. Okay. So let me just read that to you. It says, the Montpelier City Council should authorize revisions of the MPD minimum requirements for hiring officers to include one, a minimum of one year of post-secondary education or equivalent life or internship experience. And to a demonstrated commitment to volunteer or paid community service, and that's the recommendation. So you can see it's either education or life experience that would be relevant to the profession or an internship because we were trying to marry some experience that would gain judgment outside of high school, either education, life or internship. And also a indication of community care and orientation. So I just wanted to make sure you saw that before you voted and I hear what you're saying, but I just wanted to make sure that language is clear. And then the other thing is, if the council isn't interested in getting involved with this, I mean, Chief Pete, what you have on your website that Jack read earlier is very similar to the sentiment that we were already saying at the PRC, you're basically saying, you need to have a high school education plus you'd love for them to either have some other education or some other life or internship type experience or community engagement. Like it feels like what you already have written is really close to what the recommendation is. And so I almost wonder if it's worth just a follow-up conversation around that paragraph that you have to kind of get at that sentiment as a preferred or option and if that's just worth another conversation. But I'll leave it at that. Thanks. May I respond? Oh, for sure, go ahead. I would say that, yes, and again, we do internships now and guess where some of that motivation came from? So we acknowledge the partnership and the strength of bringing ideas. We can't see the trees or the forest from the trees. And so that is another way that we're looking at it. The pipeline is getting folks to come in, do internships and move forward from there. So again, I think that our spirit is definitely in cohesion. We have partners in this and we're definitely, and I know that the council doesn't have that sentiment but I just wanted to put it out there for everybody who's watching us that the PRC and Montpelier Police Department are very much in sync, especially with the spirit of the recommendations because we're all trying to tackle the same concerns that have universally plagued our profession. All right, go ahead. Yeah, thanks. I love the idea of looking at that line because that strikes me too as it's trying to get at the same sentiment and really appreciate the presentation and walking through. And I know it came out in the PRC process, the challenges with law enforcement hiring right now and it sounds like it's gotten even worse since then. So I mean, to me, I think in large part, even just sparking the conversation we're having tonight and putting a spotlight on the sentiment and how this feeds into the culture and hearing how you're working to kind of embody this in the hiring practices. I mean, I think that's going a long way to getting at what the PRC and having that as part of the recommendation to kind of live on in that document as kind of a placeholder for continuing this conversation and making sure we're keeping an eye on hiring practices and all that. So I mean, to me, I think I love the idea of trying to just see if there's a way of, you know, any tweaking of that language that you already have as a, you know, however it's preferred but not required or whatever. But I don't think we need to adopt a policy tonight. I think that seems like a great approach to me. Yeah, you know, one of the things that you said, Chief, that is sort of sticking with me is that if there was a position that needed to be filled and you didn't find someone that you felt was the right fit, then you just wouldn't fill it. Did I am I, is that accurate? It's very accurate. And it's also something that the officers themselves. Right. And they understand that they tell us all the time, don't put another body in here just to put a body in here. Right. Somebody in here is going to do the work. And that to me is a really hard thing to capture because what I feel like I heard, well, what I think is hard to capture actually is this sentiment that Connor referenced about like you can't teach him necessarily a bad person, be a good person. And then like how, but what does that mean? And how do, like, I feel like it relates to the process that you talked about, like with the polygraph and with the emotional quality testing. Is that, it's EQ. Is that? Emotional intelligence. Oh, emotional intelligence. Okay, cool. Right, so, there are ways to try to get at that but then like how do you turn that into a policy? And I'm not sure that that is something that's so easy to just say that, you know, that's our standard, right? Like I'm not sure that I've mixed feelings about that as well rather than even just, you know, like life experience might lend towards that or, you know, college experience might lend towards that but not necessarily kind of what you were saying, Carrie, about how, you know, you can go through an experience and get all kinds of outcomes of folks, you know, at the end. So I guess all that is to say, I'm also not in a place where I'm ready to, you know, adopt policy, different minimum standards right now but, you know, if we do, it feels like there's something there beyond like education or experience that is what I heard you say. Which I feel like was clear from the presentation but anyway, I guess I'm gonna stop talking at this point. Donna, yeah, I think some of what you're trying to get at is that whole subjective aspect and you can't put it there and that's why you hire and put confidence in your chief or your city manager who does hiring and that's where you let go of it. So I don't think we need to change what's there, we can modify it but I think we do our due diligence with our city manager and with hiring my chief. I'm getting the sense that we're probably not gonna change things tonight. And if folks wanna have more conversation about like what's on the website, I mean, certainly open to revisiting this at some other time, if that's what folks wanna do but I'll leave that to the police review committee to work with the chief on. Is that sufficient? Okay, thank you. Thank you chief for this great presentation. Thank you, Alyssa and please pass on our gratitude to the police review committee, you know, at this, it's, yeah, I appreciate that the sentiment that this suggestion encapsulated was also sort of very close to what was on the website. So yes, Donna, go ahead. One of the pieces, you sent us a lot of material which was made a great picture but the one that I really was impressed with that you shared evaluations of people who exit. And I think you almost need to require people to do an exit form, really some sort of enticement because it's so helpful to hear those comments. So thank you, it was very helpful. Yes, ma'am and thank you for that. And if I may, the city already has an account with Polko who reached out to me again today. They also have another tool that will help us not only reach out to the community to find out where we can, you know, improve our communications and legitimacy but there's also an internal component that we can send out random polls that are anonymous that fill this out and how are we doing? And they can track me, they can track chief Norton and the Sardons and we all track each other to keep ourselves accountable to make sure that we are leaning into a direction that we're not hemorrhaging talent. And I think that's extraordinarily valuable to us because I'd rather know before you walk out that door how I'm screwing up and how I can fix it. So that's something that we're actively looking into right now. Thank you. Lauren, did you have anything you want to add? Just really briefly, it came up earlier, gratitude for the public meeting that you're convening tomorrow night. And I just wanted to, I mean, very much in line with other recommendations of the police review committee and the spirit of how, you know, and things that are kind of traumatizing for the community are happening, how we're engaging. And so just grateful that's happening and, you know, we'll be interested to hear how it goes and if there's ongoing, but I think, you know, in terms of just, yeah, kind of best practices for how we're actually responding and giving people a venue to talk through and process together as a community. So I'm really happy that's happening. Yeah, I agree. Okay, thank you. All right, no, I just want to acknowledge that it is quarter after 10. I would like to do this next item. Is that okay? Yeah, how fast? You mind if I skip it, Mike? Okay, ha-ho. This is gonna be fast. It's so big, sorry, half time. And I'm smart enough to know I'm not turning these lights out for a PowerPoint presentation. So Mike Miller, Planning Director. So you have in your packet the proposed fee schedule and the existing fee schedule. And I'm just gonna go really quickly through some of the reasons why we're, I'm here needing to update the fee schedule. And this really comes back to 2018, the zoning update that we did and one of the major goals of the 2018 zoning update was to streamline the permitting process. And the numbers you saw that were in your packet which had the numbers was, in 2017, the DRB had 74 hearings and we issued 74 administrative permits, pretty much 50-50. 2021, there were 19 DRB hearings and 124 administrative permits. Why that's important is that the DRB hearings, not only do they take a lot longer but they also cost people a lot more money. There's a lot more fees involved. So in 2017, we collected $30,000 in fees. And in 2020, we collected 13,000, 21,000, 15,000, I think we're about 16,000 right now. So pretty much we cut our fees in half. The other change that happened from 2018 is the amount of support that we provide applicants through the process. Our staff works very hard. Meredith came on board in 2018 and so she provides a lot more and we encourage a lot more hand-holding for applicants. If you come in, you don't need to know the zoning and a lot of it was new zoning. So we told people, don't learn the zoning, we know the zoning, just email Audra and we'll hand-hold you through the process. And we pretty much have continued to do that. That's our policy now is you don't have to fill out applications and bring them to us and we review them. You email us and you say, I've got an idea, I wanna put a deck or I wanna put a shed or I wanna open a new business. Here's my address. Can you tell me what I need to do? We read all the zoning, we send you all the documents, we tell you whether you can or can't. And so we really that, so the amount of work we do for each project is much more than it used to be. So those are the things, we're collecting less money and we're doing more work. In the fee schedule, the things that are not changing, so we have building fees and we have zoning fees, the building fees portion isn't changing. That's pegged to the state. We have a contract with the state. If we weren't doing building permits, the state would be. So Chris Lumber does the building permits and we charge the same fees that the state does. And the overall structure of our zoning fees hasn't really changed. That's the layout is all still there. Some things moved around, but overall it really hasn't changed. So what has changed is some of the quick highlights, the idea is a new construction previously had really been tied to use and how it was calculated varied and it was really kind of all over the map. And what we've done is kind of simplified everything to a square footage. So all building construction is 30 cents a square foot with a couple of different minimums for accessory because accessory structures don't take as much work. So they'll have a less minimum. And non-building construction is a flat rate $50. So a building is anything on four walls and a roof. So non-building is something that misses one of those. So a porch, a deck, a swimming pool, offense, non-buildings, those would be a flat $50. Changes of use stayed the same. We increased fees from minor site plans and design review. And this really is because of the amount of work that we do. The staff does a lot of work. These were completely new. Previously, there were no minor site plans. Every site plan went to the DRB. And now what we did with the 2018 rules is said some of these don't need to go to the DRB. We can do these administratively, but we really weren't charging enough for the amount of work we were doing. In the flood hazard permits, we added a new category for minimal, which we've made cheaper. So we tried to just reflect the amount of work that we have to do with the amount of the proposal. So we actually made those cheaper, but increased the fees for the other ones, which we do a lot of work for. So if you're in the flood hazard area, we help you because the NFIP rules, National Flood Insurance Program rules, are very complicated. And again, Audra's a certified floodplain manager. She helps people through those process and spends a lot of time working on those. So we should increase the fees a little bit. Some other changes, when you go to the DRB, we now provide much more assistance. We write much more complete staff reports. Meredith does a lot more work than previous zoning administrators did in that realm. So we've increased the fees from $50 to $100. I would note on the new zoning fee schedule under appeals, I'd like to recommend that there be a reimbursement of fees for an appellant if they win.   So we don't have that ability right now. So that is in here as one of the notes on the side. The recording fees are set by the clerk's office. They were most recently updated in 2019. So those are all accurate at this time. And then what we did to kind of ground truth these is we ran a couple of recent permits through some small like a fence and a deck permit. Right now that would cost you about $130. Under the new system, it would cost you $130. We really weren't looking to increase the cost of these small permits. But as you get to the ones that take more work by staff, conditional use, DRC review, currently it would cost 425. Under the new system, it would cost 550. A new accessory structure being to a commercial use. So a commercial business is adding an accessory structure in the design review district. That's $340 today, 430 under the new rules. So it goes up about 90. And then application four is a big project, 10,000 square foot residential project in the design review district, major site plan, waiver, river hazard. Currently we charged $1,530. That would go up to $3,900. As much as $3,990 sounds like a lot of money. That particular project is about a $6 million project. So adding an extra couple of thousand for the amount of work that our staff has put into that to make that project get to the finish line. That isn't unreasonable. We also compared these to similar sized communities and these were comparable to or less than most of the other communities. Like our 30 cent per square foot rate in Heinsberg, it's 50 cents. So we're significantly less than Heinsberg if you were doing a similar project in Heinsberg and in Montpelier, you'd pay significantly less here. Our goal wasn't necessarily to drive up to fully replace that 50% loss. We just wanted to recapture more funds. And if we have to, we can come back next year and keep kind of adjusting things a little bit. So our goal really wasn't to kind of come through with a wholesale, let's really jump up the rates. We just wanted to go through and kind of make a tweak, get some things. Some of the things in our fee schedule were missing. Some of them really weren't classified right. We really wanted to kind of make things fairer. So these small projects occasionally will get a thing like a flagpole for a business that'll cost somebody $500 for a permit. We're like, that doesn't make any sense. They're $500 for that, but this person over here is building a huge building for 330, which we spent a lot of time working on. So we really just tried to balance a few of these things out and that's what you have before you. And if you've got any questions, I will take them. Thank you. I particularly appreciate that these rates are not as much as surrounding communities. That's great. And that it's important that we get paid for time spent. So I'm in favor of approving this. Would anybody like to discuss it or make a motion? I'll make a motion that we approve the amended zoning and building the schedule as proposed. Second. Further discussion. Yes, Don. Just to comment. I mean, it really is more than just the time of night.  But you sent it all to us. Thank you very much.  Agreed. Okay. Anyone online, wish to make a comment. Okay. Any further discussion? Okay. All in favor. Oh, okay. Yes, Jack. I just. Want to say that, you know, for years, you know, and I was on the barriers to housing development committee, which was. 10 or. 15 years ago, I'm not sure exactly how far, but Montpelier has always had this reputation as being. Hard to work with the can't get approved to do anything. You can't build anything in Montpelier. And, and the fact that you're. The, the evidence shows the opposite. And the fact that you're doing all these permits administratively without making people go through. DRB is. Is, is really. One, it shows that the changes we made to the zoning ordinance a few years ago, it really worked. So it really shows that Montpelier wants to do exactly that wants to. Make it easier for people to. To put their property to, to productive use. And so I think this is a good reflection on. On the department. Thank you. Yeah. I agree. Further discussion. Okay. All in favor. Please say aye. Aye. And opposed. Okay. Thank you very much. Yeah. Okay. We are up to council reports. Donna. You want to commend your mayor Watson. I thought you handled yourself extremely well tonight. And it was not a meeting. I hope to repeat because it really stayed with me. But on the lighter note, I want to encourage people to go to the Mountaineer games. They've started. And I also want to give people a heads up that the Berry street bike path. That's going in temporarily with lines and some. Very tall white cone like things will. We'll be starting at the end of June 1st of July. We're having a little bit of issue as to when they're exactly going to get the lines painted. But the intention is to have it operating and through July and August into September. So heads up that's happening. Letters are going to be written to go to the neighbors and the businesses. Thank you. Thank you. Carrie. I don't have to. Okay. Just a plug for this Saturday. Gun sense for month and March for our lives. And mom's band action. We're hosting the March for our lives. Rally that'll be on the state house lawn. Two o'clock. Good lineup of speakers there. Thanks. Jack. Thank you. I just. Want to comment briefly on the events of earlier. This evening. Because we've heard repeatedly that. Our time limits are illegal and. With this or that thing that we do is illegal. It's true that. The city council is required to hold. Public meetings that are public and that are open to the public. However, I want to. Point out from the statute. It says at an open meeting. The public shall be given a reasonable opportunity to express its opinions. The opinion on matters considered by the public body during the meeting. As long as order is maintained. Public comment shall be subject to reasonable rules established by the chairperson. And. It's just essential that we be able to have a. Public meeting doing the public business. And. Be permitted to proceed through. The course of our agenda. Without unreasonable disruption. I. Support the action the mayor took tonight. Thank you. I'm going. Okay. I want to acknowledge that graduation is happening on Friday. So congratulations to all the graduates. It's very exciting. And. Yeah. I think I'll, I think I'll leave it at that tonight. It's been. An interesting evening. Yeah. Thank you. Good. I will just remind people that water and serve those I'll do next week. And I was going to pass, but I do feel I'm, I've already sent this out to you, but we did get an appeal of a violation of the open meeting law that the two minute. Rule is. A violation and also. An alleged illegal gathering of a quorum of the council outside of council chambers. I'm warned. So we will have to, there's. Respond to that within this, you know, we'll probably have to call a special meeting some sort within a certain number of days. Okay. I've already forwarded it all to our attorney, but. Okay. And what theoretically would we do at that, at such a meeting? Well, we've had a couple of these already. So we would have a finding. Yeah. You know, I don't want to prejudice what the finding. Okay. Okay. But for example, we would hypothetically. If we adopted what council member McCulloch just said, we would say we denied that. Okay. Two minute. Is a violation. And we would say something potentially of the effect of. Yes, there was a quorum of the council gathered for a personal reason. Yeah. One of the council members. And no discussion. Okay. Was held and no discussion with chief Pete was held because that was the allegation. And. Yes, we did inadvertently. Okay. Okay. Theoretically. Theoretically, that could be an answer. Okay. Or, or. Yeah, go ahead and make another example. I think one. There was a challenge to. For someone pointed out that. We had an electronic meeting and not everybody had to introduce themselves at the beginning of the meeting. And so we just. Held the meeting and pointed and. Issued a statement. Yes, that's true. We overlooked that requirement. So that's the kind of, that's the kind of thing that we might do. Okay. But I think it, you know. Well, we can talk about, I think it would be important to emphasize no city business was being conducted. So inadvertently more than four people gathered. Okay. Talk to one council member, but it's personal. Okay. Okay. Thank you, everybody. I appreciate you all. And thank you all who are still here and still with us online. Very grateful. Okay. With that, we will consider the meeting adjourned 1031.