So actually in my presentation as a little bit of the background I will briefly introduce about C4 and our global comparative study on red gloss So I think that like most of you here today know more or less about C4 but just let to But just to give you an update on what we are doing and where we are working now With C4, so C4 is Center for International Fortune Research and we were established in 1993 and our headquarter is in Bogo and at C4 we mostly carry our international research on 4-3 and Most of our research are focusing on Pressing challenges on forest and landscape management around the world with the hope that with our information Analyze this we will inform the policies in all of the study countries with their policy designs and policies implementation At the moment C4 is working from in more than 40 countries And it is a little bit of background on where we work and what topic that we are working in different countries and in different continent As C4 in 2015 we have the new research strategies and we Retreat us ourself across being to the sustainable development goal and as C4 we have six thematic research related to forest and Some of the topic is on forest and human well-being the other is on more on the forest government topic where we focus on equal opportunity gender Unjusted and the global comparative study on red gloss and most of the fighting today We present in this presentation is belong to the thematic research on plummet chain energies and local bond development So let me just come back to the reason why we are doing our global comparative study on red plus and this slide is actually give us And also give you a website where you can actually looking for all information related to our project But the whole ration now why we wanted to do the global comparative study on red plus in the first place It because at the beginning when red plus were proposed It's all come up as a very nice idea, and it's a dream that we can do the plummet chain mitigation With red plus and then chief quick and easy solution But soon after the red plus hit on the ground there was so many challenges that different country face And it's actually a common challenges such as like the the dominant of political and economic interests that are under Underlying and and undermining the drivers of the first station We talk a lot about the week coordination among sector and also among different government agency And it is something that all of the country facing when they are designing and implementing red plus We also have to face the problem of intangible Securities and the safeguard is not in place and the transparencies at the Paris Agreement Kayap highlights in the document transparencies and also a comfortable Governance and legitimacies in this isn't making is something that all of the countries are facing And and also it one of the major barrier for hindering the actual implementation of red plus in most of the country With that a challenge is that most of the countries are sharing and also facings when they are designing and Implementing the red plus policies in 2009 C4 had a Funding from Norat and together with many other donor to carry our global competitive study on red plus and if you can see now It is a very long-term project and we have a longitudinal data from 2009 And we are now in the first phase and our project will last until 2020 and the whole objective of our C4 global comparative study on red plus is to support red plus policies arena and also red plus communities and practitioners with information analysis and tune To inform all of the key stakeholders and countries so that when they designs or implement a red plus To ensure that the red plus policy will have the 3e outcome and in this framework What we mean with effectiveness efficiencies and equities is with the effectiveness How effective the policy can tackle the drivers of deforestation and degradation? Efficiencies refer to how red plus policies can actually implemented in a cost efficient way and with equity and Co-benefit to what I stand and how red plus can be implemented Taking into account the fairness and also equitable outcome for all stakeholders involving in the process and As again our project could not have been done with all of the financial support from different donor But so far Nora is our biggest donor. So we express our strength of thanks to the donor Let me quickly introduce about the C4 global comparative study and the three phases of our project from 2009 and in 2012 most of our research focus on the overall designs of red plus So when the country's designing red plus what? What factors and what issue that need to be taken into account they are now a previous Knowledge and also research in in phase two from 2015 our research focus on the evolving of the policies process So actually where red plus were designed in the first phase how it's actually implemented actually is on the ground And what are the challenges that all of the country face? Also in this particular phase from 2016 to 2020 our research will focus mainly on the assessment of the policy design to actually Hopefully being able to measure some of the actual outcome in the record policies arena and with our global comparative study on red plus then in in overall we have been working in more than 17 countries crossing through from Southeast Asia to Latin America and Africa and more or less All of these countries in our continent as in our active countries, but in this phase Three we have two new countries Myanmar and Myanmar Because Myanmar is a very interesting study and we are very lucky to have a partnership with The ministries of policies in Myanmar and the forest research Institute To engage in this study. We also have a new countries Yeah, ma because among all of the countries to date. Yeah, now is the First and also perhaps the only one to date receive the payment from Norway and our college from Guiana can update to us more. Hopefully during the panel discussion In terms of the how we structures our research With the GCSE global comparative study on red plus we basically have five work package in our project The first work package is on M1 where we're looking at the national policies and and process and we try to Understanding how different country designing red plus policies whether or not is successful is any encounter policies Amateurs of policy that actually hinder or enable red blood policies work in certain context In order to complement with our first component where we're looking at the national level we have model to where we're looking at different type of red plus pilot projects across the world and Hopefully to inform the lesson learn how these red blood Pilot projects can offer to the national policies making what are the lesson learned and and how actually The rare plus activities implemented on the ground We have the third model models, which is lit by Nikki who is wearing here. She's waving hand and That particular model is more on the technical side of of a pre plus where we are working on mv and and Designing it and let us like we can talk more about that We have another models calling multi-level governance where different research Try to understanding how red unfold at different levels of governance And also we're looking at the possibility to draw a bit in mitigation and adaptation in red plus policies and Fostery policies in S overall and the final component, which is we have Christie at the back here It's more on the knowledge sharing kind of work package where we hopefully to be able to pull out information from different models and Disseminate and communicate and share With different stakeholder and we're also doing a lot of training on CSO and also media on What would be the interesting topic and relevant topic related to red plus? So just to give a little bit of quick Information on some of the research fighting that different work package Have had to date and of course over the course of today We will be more than happy to share in detail if you are interested in any Research component within our project But just again with the model one where we're looking at the national policies process one of the interesting work Which is led by Maria who is sitting over there She can waving and also Kaisa's over there is on our comparisons on the red plus policies and progress in 13 countries from 2012 until 2006 and Basically the latest findings from 2006 where you see different progress in different countries where we're working with and In this QCA paper They also identifies a numbering of factors and a combination of factor Why in some of the countries they make a very good progress on red plus and some in other countries the progress is not yet there And if you're looking at the list of the 13 countries some of the countries make a very good progress Such as Brazil Guiana's and also to some extent the RC We don't I mean it is very unfortunate that we don't have an expert from the RC today But some of our college can also explain on the case of the RC and I mean with our analysis Among the 13 countries we also see some of the countries such as like in Vietnam in Tanzania Where they are a little bit back and forth with the red plus policies and there's a lot of challenges There was a whole document and also the reference at the end and if you are interested to know more about The paper and our actual work we have the two lead author here, and we are more than happy to share our paper in hard copy or electric version with M1 on national policy process over the year we also doing a different kind of angles on on on red plus policy Some of the thing we working we're looking at specific lesson learned from different Beneficiary mechanism in different countries for example in the case of Vietnam We're looking at the payment for environmental services, which is considered by the government of Vietnam at the backbone for their Red plus beneficiary mechanism. We also have a latest document led by Kaiser where we're looking at red plus as a form of experiment for Transformation the chain in term of governance. We also have a comparative paper looking at what are the risks for red plus When you are actually implementing red plus in different countries and with different context and the paper is up there We also looking at Institutional and also behavior change and also discourse and that is some of the paper here So just to get you a flavor of what we are actually doing at what M1 and what are the potential output based on our research today With the model to where where my college a midu shell She could not hear today But we are more than happy to give her contact if you are particularly interested on the sub-national implementation of Red plus initiative and project so in this one we have the countries of the red plus project and initiative in six countries and here is the map and We actually covering the 22 initiative and we have the database form More than hundred and fifty villages and the database that we collected for the last seven and eight years is Is quite large with four thousand household and in this particular model my college at M2 They was actually measuring the actual impact of red plus using the before-after control in intervention methodology and Some of the key fighting to date which is now pulling out from our Study at the sub-national level is if you're looking in term of the impact in term of red plus impact on forest Based on our sampling as six countries and 23 initiative We see a very minimum reduced in three cover loss at different red plus size And but actually if you compare between the side where we have red plus and the side where we don't have red plus then the performance appears worst in the case without any controls and At least if you can see in the impact of forest based on the household surveys a result to third of the household at the red side subject to intervention and 65% of them actually reported on changes in land use and I think we have Mela here And also some of the college from C4 here working on M2 that can also explain In detail if you are interested in that particular component in Indonesia there was also a study conducted by our college under M2 where they pull out whether or not the red plus project initiative had any positive impact on Biodiversity and they're using the case studies of Indonesia at one of the example and Basically with the study to we with the fighting to date We found that red blood initiative in Indonesia Located in high biodiversity area, but with lower than average carbon density So it has a whole implication whether or not red blood can actually Generate any positive impact on biodiversity In term of the impact on red plus on people with the fighting to death We see no negative impact on well in common well-being, but also no evidence on core benefit We also see that there is a very little advancement on tenure Even those different type of project and different initiative in six countries put the tenure Securities improvement as one of their objective We also see with our sub-national level initiative is the the existing incentive had to alleviate negative well-being impact of Regulation alone and there won't be more people coming out and if you are interested in that fighting And I said I would be more than happy to put you in contact with my college Amy who are leading that's component On the model 3's on MLV just to give you an idea of what we are exactly doing We're doing a lot of assessment on existing capacity of the national capacity in Designing and implementing MLV in terms of the technologies and the middle design We're also working on to the monitoring concept try to understand different drivers of deforestation and degradation in different countries. We're working with also Rapid emission level and and some of our college also supporting many governments in developing their MLV system Like for example in the case of Yana and we also have some testing on communities based monitoring method and if you are interested in this particular Work package we have Nikki here, and I think that Nikki can explain more and sharing to us the more update fighting with model 4 we Did he the type of question that we wanted to ask ourselves and also together with the national partner in different countries? We try to understanding how red glass has been interpreted and has been implemented at different Governance level and with that sky in mind We asked several key critical question who make the season and how the season are made from international national sub-national level and also try to understanding the complexity of Relationship between actors at multiple level and this whole package is led by And last time she's not here today, but again if you are interested in the research methodology And also the research fighting to date. We are more than happy to provide the contact and and also Connect you to and last and Some of the multi-level Challenges that we found in all of the countries that we are working is actually in all of the countries Maybe that's not new to most of us here, but a horizon to cross sector or coordination Either or not whether it's cross sector of coordination or within sector of coordination has been quite Quite challenging and it's actually very limited in in in most of the countries and and it's also very interesting because for the last Since 2009 every years we have an hour annual meeting where different countries team member like many of them are here Update to us about the red plus policies and progress and surprisingly for so many years Like two days ago when we have the update information for most of the countries Coordination and collaboration is still one of the biggest challenges in in most of the countries where we're working with And also we we also Doing a little bit of analysis again on the complexity of relationship among different Level and and we see the whole findings coming out from the analysis is the central government Overrides sub-national government decision and at the same time in many countries the sub-national government ignore the central government So there was a very weak linkage between central government and and and sub-national and Also, if you're looking at the project per se then most of the project that are working on red plus Often the target, you know procemet, but not the underlying drivers of deforestation and degradation So it's also questioning a little bit about their effectiveness in tackle the rivals of deforestation and degradation Just one again I wanted to highlight this this is like which is the Our happiest moment of all of the year is because our work cannot be done in the 13 countries or 17 countries And now eight countries in the third row Without a large number of National partners and research who are Happy notes and have been together with us in this journey and one is again Taken this opportunity. I would like to express our special Thanks again to all of our partner who are here and being with us since 2009 and just to say that The C4 projects in this way is a very collaborative efforts We're doing it together with country partners and our national partner So that on the one hand we be able to generate a global lesson learn But at the same time we we want to make sure that whatever we produce with our research are useful and can Inform some of the lesson learn for the country's partner and the policies maker in the countries that we are studying so again, it is just a victim and Today we only able to have seven team come because so many reasons but just to saying that There is a incredible collaboration effort and thanks again everyone from all the team who are here with us today and Again, that is the finest lie I don't want to take a lot of the time because I understanding that the panel discussion would be the highlight for today, but just again Thank you everyone for coming and you have all of the contact person from C4 Global comparative study project with different component and if you have any question or if you have any interest, please let us know and Again, thank you. Thank you very much. We maybe any follow-up questions or clarification otherwise, I will invite Bethany Daphis our moderator for the session and also our country expert to come to the stage and We can start the talk show this this talk show is also accessible online through a webinar So we will have our online Participants who will send us questions. Thanks Cynthia. Good morning everybody. My name is Bethany Davies I work with C4 My role this morning is simply to moderate. So I would like to invite all of our country representatives to join me Upstage if we could seat ourselves in order from this side through so Myanmar and Ethiopia Could sit down this end and Guyana and Brazil on that side Excuse us while we got organized Okay, I think we're ready to get started so as To be pointed out this morning what we have done is invited seven of our research Collaborators from the seven different countries. We've been working well from seven of the 13 different countries We've been working with over the last several years Who've been collaborating with us to analyze how different countries are approaching planning and implementing Red plus in in very different contexts So we've asked them this morning to try and distill these very complex and nuanced Experiences into some some key insights that they can share with us By focusing on a couple of highlights So highlighting the key areas of progress that each country has made in their implementation So the first half of this forum this morning will ask them to share a very brief highlight from the the implementation in each of their countries and then Explore some of the the drivers and constraints that have helped and hindered the the achievement of this progress We're going to then take a short coffee break and then afterwards will reconvene the panel and we'll be interested in having a Participant driven discussion will be your opportunity to to drill into the details and explore some of the Experiences of each of these countries And each of these countries is at very different stages in their their journey of red plus implementation from some countries that are in the early stages or later stages of red plus readiness some that are more progressed into the development of policies and measures and Some of our colleagues are more in the stage of already receiving their results based payments So we'll work through those sequentially this morning and We have very limited time and a very full panel So we've actually decided to dispense with a few of the formalities We're not going to spend a lot of time introducing people and where they're from or where they're working with If you're interested in that level of detail those details are in the agenda Or we'll refer you to the C4 website so without Further ado, I might begin with our colleagues from Ethiopia So Lam Lam is joining us from Ethiopia And I was wondering if you could start by sharing some of the key areas of progress that your music spirit You've observed in your country study Thanks so much and Good morning everybody So I am so excited by being the first speaker among all these countries and let me update you about Some of the policy progress that my country just made by the way my country is in the finalization of this the readiness process in the finalization in the finalization stage So there are some policies which are conducted after 1050. So let me update you about the Country profile and some of the policies which are changing after 1050 So some of the policy changes are one of the major change that's considered to be that is a major in Ethiopia is that is a revision of the first Proclamation that is the one in the most important thing in Previous period the forest was owned by the state in the private sector however in the same page The forest is going to become owned by It's said it is just put it in the proclamation to be owned by the communities in association So this one is one of the great change in Ethiopia. So the inclusion of this one is one of the cooking and the other one is just the development of MR review unit at the Ministry of Environment Forest and Climate Change that is one of the other good Change in my country and the development of forest reference emission level in the same it just a mission to UN FCC is that is the other important issue and the other one is also in order to Just conduct the MR review the redefinition of the forest is also as an important issue which is conducted in Ethiopia and Ethiopia is just That is the first from Africa that it the first to submit the forest Refers the forest reference emission level to UN FCC and also it appears also the first to develop the biocarbon thing in the fund which is obtained from the World Bank and It is the first country in Africa to submit the forest reference level in the UN FC and It appears also the first from the few countries implementing the landscape the landscape level biocarbon Program in oral marriages for sending through the fund which is obtained from the World Bank So these are some of the achievements which obtained from Ethiopia regarding the risk plus issue Thank you We might pass on now to our colleague speaking from Myanmar So Yia is joining us with me from Myanmar who's and Myanmar is probably at the earliest stage of red plus development of anybody Speaking today, would you like to share the progress that you've made so far? Yeah, my mind is just like our Initial state like a preparation state of the world bless So we start to be a robust partner country in the UN red and 2011 stuff from the time We start to promote the robust roadmap and then we form the technical working group at the time And so we we just start the two Subnation of labor project Just only two and then we start to do the capacity building program and updated our stuff from 2015 and 2016 we have a UN red target support. So the time we start to prepare the Strategy and FIO so currently we are submitted the draft of the FIO to the university in 2018 just in in January so and then regarding the Strategy we just finished the draft and that is like a consolidation meeting around the country. So Yeah, that one will be Validate validation washout will be in June. So after that we were complete in the rubber strategy Now we have a maybe four or five rubles Project are running in Yema. So we just we are just very yeah Thank you and moving on to our colleagues from Indonesia, Vietnam and Peru You've been working on these these countries have been working on these issues for a while longer and have made some significant development In laying the groundwork and creating the enabling environment for red plus to be implemented might begin with Ibu Moira from the Indonesia study team. Could you provide us with an update on where things are at in Indonesia? Okay in Indonesia after an early start White Initiatives for for RDD in the earlier government in 2015 a change in government has put RDD back in the box. So basically Everything that's happening now is happening in the Ministry of Environmental Forestry. There have been some Progress, but basically Indonesia is hovering between different stages and on the threshold of implementation but Lifting the feet to implement it has been very difficult So there have been recently some new regulations which Establish the general mechanism for RDD the registration system the MRV and Infantarization of greenhouse gases new regulations within the Ministry of Forestry and Outside the RDD there has been the continuation of moratorium for new licenses. There has been a big effort to Rehabilitate restore peatlands and with that also attention to Diminish fires which all affect how RDD can operate later on and then there is the map one map policy So that's in a nutshell. Thank you Yeah, so also lies in Indonesia Vietnam is quite In what was one of the pioneer countries in Southeast Asia because we have already the national red blood strategies in 2011 and 2012 And last year we have a revised version of the national red blood strategies in the previous version We had a very general commitment to red bloods But the national red blood strategies didn't tackle to the drivers of deforestation and with the revised version Which were published last year Last year the new and rub and the new national red blood strategies directly tackle to the drivers of deforestation and degradation, which is a major achievement in the countries like in Vietnam in Vietnam we submitted the Emission level to the event processes already in the early of 2017 and where do you finalize the beneficiary mechanism Through red bloods fun and now we are now in the state of finalizing the safeguard framework and It is expected that by the end of this year the national safety system will be operationalized in Vietnam I think that one of the highlight that we would like to share is that If you can see in my earlier slide among of the 13 countries, Vietnam and Tanzania is a little bit of Backward in term of red bloods because we were very active in red bloods in the first face But over the time the political commitment and the political interests of the government on red bloods has been reduced and Just two weeks ago Even though in the past we have the national red blood steering committee chaired by the prime minister and with the participant from all of the ministries Actually supposed to be coordinating red bloods policies in Vietnam a few weeks ago that red blood steering committee has been dissolved and Even though two weeks ago we still have the independent and standing red bloods office two weeks ago We don't have any more the the red bloods office because that red bloods office has been merged Again into another department under the ministries of poetry so in the previous way we wanted to go out of the sector approach and we wanted to have a multi-sector approach in addressing red bloods and now we're going back to the starting point where red bloods is going back to the ministries of our account to Andrew development and only under the department of poetry So we are not yet quite sure what would be the future of red bloods, but there is a challenge is definitely in actually Translating our national commitment and the red bloods policies on the ground Thanks, and have a year from Peru. Would you like to give us a little bit of an update? Thank you. Good morning Good morning Have you ever tried to put an elephant inside a bottle? I feel like this and because I just have two minutes to explain like 10 years of red in my country I'm going to try to do a short brief about my country. I Had been working in red for more than 10 years and summarize the Peruvian experience very hard In fact now I have just one and a half minutes As you know, Paris in South America is a big country Indonesia is 1.4 times bigger than Peru we have 128 million of echorias, and you have 181 million and 56 of our country's forest We have dry forest highland forest and rain forest Rain forest represent more than 94 percent of our forest Five 51 of our yes G emission are in land use and land use chain forestry sector However, our forest sector just mean one percent of our GDP That's some strange because in some countries that has like a lot of GsG emission in energy the GDP increase But in our country 51 percent is land use and let's use change emission and just 1% of our GDP We started to talk about red 10 years ago and Peru is part of a lot of different process in forest carbon partnership facility Feeb the forest investment program on red and some key actors are warband IDP Norway Germany Now we have a climate change policy since March two months ago. It's like a new wall and our NDC 30% according with the business as usual scenario and 67% of our CO2 GsG reduction are in forest and Also, we have a national strategy of forest and climate change In just another 30 seconds, could you talk a little bit about The progress that Peru is making in terms of red plus specifically When we started talk about red Imagine like the three phases like readiness implementation and resolvers payment In fact now nowadays in Peru. We have the three phases at the same time We have like working in the readiness process We have some projects and some companies both like carbon credits now and that's interesting because When it's like when you design a process you can imagine like readiness implementation work like this, but It's hard coordinate between different stakeholders and The reality is different Thank you. So everything happening all at once in a very challenging situation. Thank you And our last two country Pleasure to be here So Brazil is advanced in the implementation of red plus in a way that we that Brazil has already Launched its national strategy on red plus since 2015 Red plus was also included in the NDC And red plus is framed in Brazil under Under all our policies that are already in place So for example the national policy on climate change and the new forest code from 2012 So in this sense the enforcement of forest code is really important For the country. I was also asked to talk a little bit about commanding control Why because basically inside the forest code the the plans on combat to of the forest stations Is based on the command control approach? But in Brazil the control part the follow-up of policies is really difficult Sure, there are some Estimatives and calculations that shows that the commanding control approach Play in place a real a big role in In the decryption of the forest station But some specialists as myself do not believe this is the only reason so for example some economic instruments or Like market fluctuations have also influenced in this context And this put the effectiveness of commanding control on check especially in the long term so Surely we have achieved a Level of success in decreasing the forest station, but for how long we have been deforestation much longer Then we have like decreasing the deforestation rates So the deforestation rates in Brazil are increasing again since 2013 Many argue that's happened because of some changes in the first code That weakened the commanding control approach in the country but on the other hand that also some evidence that that is a change of behavior in the deforestation activities and However For example, the deforestation rates are happening in small patches nowadays but There are also evidence that is not happening because of a higher number of small holders But because larger land owners have learned to trick the monitor systems They they even develop some techniques as for example to make an inventory of the area But to cut the shorter trees and leave the first code there So since the monitor systems is based on the canopy the canopy is still there and also another evidence from the commanding control Approach is that usually the small holders they pay the bill because since we have a Large or high level of corruption in the country the large land owners. They just bribe the system. Thank you Thank you, and just finally Vanessa who will be speaking to us from Guyana Thank you and good morning. I'm very happy for this opportunity to speak about my country, Guyana So Guyana is is on the same continent sister country to the Brazil and lies on the north of the South American mainland We are a highly forested country over 75 percent Foresting with very low deforestation Historic low deforestation of less than 1% Country as well that we're our main economic centers are two meters below sea level and so climate change and they You know the consequences of climate change are key to to Guyana's future Also a country that has 14 percent of our land mass Is you this title is excuse Actually owned as a type of deed by the indigenous peoples of our country. So that helps to give a context our Our involvement with red plus builds on the Tradition in our country of having sustainable forest management and including the aspects of reductive impact logging etc. So you have You know a very low impact on the forest as best as possible But you know listening to my colleagues from from Brazil and from Peru About the impacts of what is causing deforestation as I mentioned You know we have over 75 percent of our forest of our land mass that is forest cover but where the emissions are deriving from and where the Deforestation and forest degradation is occurring is within the forest estate as well But not because of forestry primarily because of mining and gold mining in that aspect With regard to the results based payment system I was asked to speak about we have had a Policy in the country from 2009 where the president at that time launched what was called a low-carbon development strategy it The intention the initiative was to transform the country's economy to a low-carbon pathway and to ensure that as part of that Transformation that the citizens were able to benefit and that it would not come at a cost of affecting the livelihoods of the people You know who depended on on the on those natural resources With regard to the opt-in mechanism. I think I was asked to speak about as well So, let me back up a bit. So we have since 2009 this climate policy that is that is nationally applied the low-carbon development strategy and out of that we were Successful in having an agreement signed with the Kingdom of Norway for an agreement for five years of up to a payment of 250 million US dollars for the Ensured that our deforestation rate did not raise above a particular reference level a particular benchmark We have been successful in implementing that project over the years. It ended in 2015. I believe a five-year project We are in the stage where we have a kind of a low cost no no no cost extension for that agreement so that we can continue to Implement the actions of it, but our current government is also in discussion with Norway on you know prospects of having a new agreement etc With regard to what payments we have received thus far we have received about 190 million US dollars over over the years How it is assessed we have we've been using wall-to-wall assessment of satellite imagery To assess the land use changes and that is matched with ground-truthing particularly with the support of Indigenous communities who have been involved in a CMRV have I gone over time? I hope no But yes, who have been involved in community monitoring? reporting and verification and so that has helped the the MRVs to become more credible more robust I Believe I should close here. Thank you Thank you so much for each of you for those those brief overviews Also quite interested in hearing from each of you we might begin with you and maybe work backwards down the panel in the In the context in which you're working in order to achieve what you've achieved so far What are some of the the drivers that have supported that achievement? What are some of the complications that you've experienced? I guess this study particularly uses red plus as the The target for the study, but what it's really discussing is how do you policy and practice changes occur in these very highly Contested very complex spaces, so we're really interested in understanding some more detail about What drives and enables and constrains some of these transitions within different countries in different contexts? One of the things to the key things would be in the leadership at the level of the government you know and the policy in that matched with stakeholder involvement and building awareness of of the of the citizens to understand why the country is engaged in these in these kinds of Arrangements, so for instance a country like a Anna that has such high You know high forested cover and very low deforestation rates You would have had to address issues that why are we worried about climate change where we are maintaining our forest Other countries haven't so why do we continually have to do things and perhaps you know cartel some of our activities So quite a lot of Consultations have been held and continue to be held Across the country. There is also what is called a multi-stakeholder stare committee and an expert group That helps to inform the process that helps address perceptions and misconceptions and build people's understanding This all of this covered with building A Capacity and institutional capacity human and institutional capacity in those agencies that are involved in the process So it's there's not one answer It is just a kind of coordinated effort that is within the structures the government structures But also very key in involving all the stakeholders across the country So those are some of the features that have enabled have you run into particular challenges as well in terms of Progressing to the point that you have and actually being able to achieve those targets and receive the payments from your one and where I should start Not not particularly in a negative way, but as in my view I'm not speaking on behalf of the government in my view a kind of a learning process And that's why I see the value of this engagement because it helps us to share and to learn what experiences are So for instance as part of the agreement we've had with Norway And you know Giana being kind of a guinea pig sticking his neck out and getting into this arrangement I'm not really having examples to learn from and so Giana has Through its partnership with Norway and the support of you know international organizations and both local and overseas and so on Giana has been able to Kind of balance itself for the want of a better description to deal with the issues that May not have been considered at the inception of the agreement. So for instance while we have you know, the forest laws are continually being revised over a periodic process and You know, you look at the policies and so on and all the other things that match it There was a kind of a surprise perhaps In my view that there was a necessity to go towards the EU flecked VPA process So that was one of the requirements It is not a negative because I think it's I know that this help in the country to improve The issues related to logging and compliance with with not only national but international You know, no conditions but how How does this help the country to achieve the The arrangement as part of the agreement and what other perhaps surprises for the want of a better description that may have come along So for instance As part of this agreement as well the payment system So it is continually being discussed that the arrangement the agreement with Norway is not Kind of like an ODA. It is not a grant It is a service is a country that is providing a service and being paid by the other partner And so how can you know this experience be managed in a way that you don't have You know, there are additionalities for compliances that are not necessarily within the original agreement So in our instance, you have the World Bank And you have the IDB who are now, you know The World Bank is a trustee as part of the arrangement and you have the IDB as well of a partner entity who are involved in the process and As part when Norway releases the payment for the year is a kind of an annualized payment When Norway releases the payment based on the opinion of independent forest monitors You know, and it says you've done the auditing We've gone into the country. We've checked based on the reports When that money is released by Norway, then the World Bank, that's their hearts and the IDB Adds, you know, oh, but you know, we think that you should also comply with this and you haven't really made enough progress on this So, you know, there's a bit of a hold and so that can That can cause a bit of frustration to a certain extent And kind of affect some expectations But to a certain extent you understand where these international, you know, partners are coming from. So how do we strike the balance? I think that's that's one of the interesting aspects to me that we have experienced in the country Thank you. So just one more final question for you before we move on and I'm sorry I haven't really prepped you for this one But if you think about red plus as a model that has a certain theory of change that is driving it There's some assumptions about the model Assumptions made in the model that there are some things some incentives and some principles that are incorporated that will make it a transformative framework You've touched on a few of those in your presentations. You've spoken about this idea of incentive space payments But also the principles of equity and participation as core parts of the model I was just wondering if you could give some reflections about how These Principles and theories have played out and whether you believe that they are going to lay the groundwork for Sustainable or transformational change within your context and if not, why not? Again, I don't know where to start. There's so many things happening in Ghana at the current moment, but Going back to the the context I gave you at the beginning. I did not Mention that one of the greatest contributors to our GDP is gold mining and mining in particular And when you compare the earnings and the contribution to the economy from mining compared to what the country Has earned and can earn through, you know, arrangements with with our international partners There is this this this case of how can we really have that transformation that moves from the business as usual? Where you have oh, but I am you know, our sector is really contributing a larger share than perhaps and and we are more guaranteed In terms of the contribution to the economy than well what guarantees do you have to have another agreement? What else is out there on the next international scale? So those are those are aspects that we have been trying to you know balance and manage as as we progress The other aspect now is that since 2015 There has been a very large discovery of oil and gas of Geyana's shore so that kind of puts kind of a spanner in the works because it is a Totally kind of paradigm shift that I knew that I mentioned that was not really considered as part of this process The extent of that reserve is huge I was reading I mentioned to my colleagues as I was reading a reference from from the Bloomberg report Which reference the kind of flows that Geyana can derive from his oil reserves to be like drinking water from a fire hose So kind of like a lot more that you can take on and so while we talk about, you know How you know the incentives can work and equity and so on I think one of the things that we are also trying to grapple with and to prepare ourselves for is how can we maintain these Transformations that we have achieved the process the progress that we have achieved in this new dimension. I think that is that that Kind of you know presents a larger consideration that normally we would not have had when we started this engagement with C4 and this project Thank you I'll come back to produce here to Discuss similar issues soon in your experience you began to touch on this in your earlier presentation There's already been some significant Challenges that Brazil is experiencing despite being able to demonstrate that you are achieving the reductions and being able to attract those payments What are some of the challenges that you're experiencing? But also what are some of the things that have supported Brazil to get to the point where they are? I Think as all other countries and the implementation of red plus in Brazil has Positive and also negative aspects, but I also think Brazil has learned a lot during this process but as also is shown in the in our research like one of the biggest problem in Brazil is about coordination and Interaction among sectors mainly among agriculture mining energy also the alignment between sub-national policies with under the national umbrella Another issue is participation is in the country continue to be implemented like a top-down decision-making process and Another big issue is to tackle and the first station drivers one of the reasons is because The the larger land owners in Brazil are also The biggest part of the political arena So the decision-makers are their own Who owns the land and are benefited from the economic land users? And so in your estimation How given all of those factors? How comfortable are you that some of the progress that Brazil has? Observed is going to be sustainable in the longer term. I Think what is positive in Brazil is that Brazil is working with red plus under the logic of a public policy That try to compensate who actually is try is trying Towards first conservation, but how confident I am This is difficult to say because I think the country at this moment Is facing like a really political crisis? We have elections in October and this is difficult to know which directions We are going and also since this new first code in 2012 Like the environmental arena in Brazil is really weak in it in the moment. So it seems that It will be really complicated for Brazil to comply with to be in line with the climate targets and to really achieve sustainable development or Be a sustainable country or to to protect the forest Thank you to both of you. Those are some really interesting reflections on Even when you've made some very significant progress and you've been able to establish a system and trapped investment So reminder that we are subject to very dynamic circumstances and some very significant external drivers that can Have a real really big impact on how it is that those systems are managed I might Pass over to our colleagues from Peru It's heavy of when you're reflecting on Peru's experience so far What are some of the things that have enabled you to to make the progress that you have but also complicated that As I said, we have like rain is implementation and resolve based payment at the same time That means that we have like a national approach, but also a project approach I think one and some of these projects are like with a very five carbon standards and Climate community and biodiversity alliance standard. They're like This project started like six maybe eight years ago This is very very good because we the projects Permit that some people like them Capacity building process to manage some software like the dynamic and some support to Develop the MRB system, but just in a in a project level the challenge is how we can match the national process with the project process because it the Reference level is it's hard to match to much it I can say good night because in Peru is like 12 hours of different despite of that We have the same problems like the coordination problem within money mining transfer agriculture is like it's the same It's the same problem in all the countries for that. I think like See for a lot of positive study and this kind of platform is like Allow us to share our problem because sometimes we feel like how we have like big problems in our country and Are the same problem we we think like share our knowledge like easy to find better solution And I think another Important thing is like we we are working like in a flexible process like learning by doing in Peru And in the past when we talk about red always talk about grants like warband IDB is like Like free money, you know grant but nowadays like the the forest investment probably means 50 million dollar and One 50% of that is is grant and the 50% part is long I mean that we we have to pay and that's that is interesting because some new stakeholders like Economic and finance minister start to ask what red means, you know, and we have a new a new a new player in the arena and And Economic and financial minister is key stakeholder because is the the focal point For like Just before we pass that on I'm just curious to explore that a little bit further So if you've got these new players coming in there has that been something that has pushed the momentum for red Or is that making it more complicated? I need a ball to see the future. I don't know. I feel it's interesting when new stakeholders enter and start to talk about red because In fact red is like a new name to call Sustainable forest management in the negotiation. They create every week new Words to negotiate but it's like in the in the roots. It's like sustainable forest management. I think it's interesting because I said like 56% of our country's forest and just contribute with 1% of the GDP We need like use better our Mining is like 35% of the GDP How we can when how we can change in the process to use natural resources? Because we know that And other insights that you've seen in the experience of setting up red plus that might provide some guidance and some insights in how to Develop those natural resources in a more sustainable manner Are there some transferable policy lessons? I guess that we've been able to see and within the the red plus study that might inform some of those processes I Think one of the key actor that is very important is the private sector Who is private private sector here? Can we write them? I got sector When we talk about red always Where is the private sector? I work in a consulting company? I can write my hand because I am But I feel it's not long. I Think one of the challenge is how we can include Private sector in the in the arena because they they are but when because you know the People if you if you study the the the first station driver, the private sector is Part of the driver always because it's about about money And I think we have to develop a special strategy to introduce private sector in the Yeah, thank you. It's a really timely reminder Colleague has recently shared with us some graphic illustrations of how much investment is going into the Amazon base And how much of that is public sector money versus private sector money and then of that public sector money How much of that is actually red plus related and it's a minute amount So I guess that's the real importance and interest in highlighting. What are the transferable lessons that we can take from this to inform? Strategies beyond just implementation of red plus Thank you very much. I'm Tui. Do you want to speak to us from the Vietnam experience? would have been some of the The things that have enabled the progress to be made within Vietnam and some of the challenges that you've experienced as well Yes, I think that in Vietnam we had a quite unique political context and also government reaching And I think that's one of the major and key important fighters that make all of the thing with red plus possible is a Political world and government commitment to it because if you're looking at the drivers of deforestation and the degradation In Vietnam most of it related to actually the national development goal because it's actually our There was a lot of inconsistencies among different policy because for example on the one hand You have the national commitment on red plus to reduce deforestation and degradation and last year The prime minister also announced the National Bank on locking and we totally closed our forest Yeah, throughout the countries at the same time we still have the sector of development strategies For example, we have to maintain our a coffee sector as the second largest coffee producers in the world We also have the national development goal to be one of the top three or five on dry Exporters and agriculture community exporter Then all of the inconsistent amount of policy for the significant challenges for at plus But I think that my few years ago when we observe and doing a lot of studies on red plus and other Cross-free policies in Vietnam is actually very sensitive to talk about the underlying drivers of deforestation and Deforestation because the state agency was actually behind of the drivers not the small holder and Individual indigenous communities who are blamed on doing student and in certain cultivation But I said earlier The fact that in the revised National Report strategy last year The government acknowledged the drivers of deforestation and have the policies and measure Proposed to address the drivers. I think that was one of the significant changes At least there was some sheep in the paradigm and also, you know The government views on if they really wanted to commit to redo deforestation What has to be included in their policy in the first step? Yeah, but also Why we are moving ahead the red plus in Vietnam Not just only the political agenda and also the national development goal can influence the whole Visibilities of red plus within the factory sector per se. We have many new policy initiative And the question is whether or not red plus should be the government priorities also put on the table and Receive a lot of discussion from the government And apparently the one of the reason why the political commitment and interest on red plus has been reduced over time Because at the same time we have the domestic policies payment for environmental services where they had a fully command and control system and you know kind of run by the government and Every year we generous about 150 million US dollar just with our own domestic policy and In contrast where you comply with a lot of requirement international requirement and you expecting a lot from red plus But Vietnam has not received any Payment from the dollar and obviously comparing between the domestic policies where you can take a full you know operationals and Generates already or demonstrates already some effectiveness versus the red plus where you will have to comply a lot with international requirement, but very uncertain futures on the potentials of benefit and last year the government During one of the national workshop that we host together with the government It made it's very clear that red plus will not be the political priorities and concern of the governments of Vietnam so In the context like this But I think that for the last few years we observed many positive changes in Vietnam as well Because in the past in 2012 we carry our study on safeguards and and free prior informant consent and epic and basically at that step The government almost didn't want to talk about that and epic and indigenous right were treated as one of the most sensitive issues in our debate and for a moment many researchers and also There was a great concern from from Norway's and also for many donors about the fact that we didn't tackle into that kind of indigenous people and Equity aspect, but over the time I think that with a lot of consultation with a lot of You know a change and also with a loss of when it raising it was very great to see that last year with our For three law revision is the very first time that indigenous and community rise were mentioned in our forest law, which is Also showing a little bit of change in terms of policies and also political views. Yep Thank you touch on some really interesting issues there and raising the dimensions of power and also that Complementarity, but also tensions between nationally driven processes and internationally driven processes I'm sure that they will all get picked up on and discussed further might move on to hearing from you the more about the the Indonesian experience Would you like to discuss some of the the drivers and constraints that you've observed in the Indonesia context? Okay, Malaysia RADD started at a time when there was a realization of That the underlying causes of deforestation are beyond the forestry sector so the first task forces and the red agency really did a multi-stakeholder and had a national strategy, but when it was put back in the box it became a forestry issue so all these External drivers then are beyond the control of the Department of the Ministry of Forestry to actually I wouldn't say tackle but there are Contextual issues which make the implementation of RADD more complicated than it was when it was a more general issue for example at the time when RADD became Within the Ministry of Forestry so a forestry issue there is also the new law on Recentralization of and this especially affect the forestry sector because it was at the district level now It's pulled back to the provincial level. So all this this earlier talk of where RADD should be located Is now up in the air again because this law although it was issued in 2014 has still not been completely implemented at the same time. There's a new law on Village autonomy. So now villages have the right to Manage their assets and the discussion is is forest in the village territory an asset of the village Officially legally it's still for Ministry of Forestry. So it's legally it's State forest but in the practice there are all these people living in the forest So do they have the right to manage their forest or not? so Then there is also the agenda on agrarian and forest and your reform which led to the big program of social forestry social forestry is not an Acknowledge of rights. It's more or less a small concession because it you Request the rights to manage and you are given the rights to manage under a lot of requirements so Some groups of people do not really want to accept the social forest program because it doesn't really accept their rights at the same time there's also a new law a new instruction that Indigenous communities territory are recognized which is Theoretically about 40 to 60 million hectare of the 90 90 million hectare of forest but in the practice only So far I think 16 community Communities have been recognized that they have the right to their territories. So all these other millions are still in dispute So there are a lot of There is a lot of Attention on rights of local communities There is also attention of forest so the Department of Interior Affairs and the Department of Finance are now Involved in in talks about forestry. They have a separate section which really tries to help coordinate issues on forestry like How do you integrate forestry affairs in the in the local Planning system. So it was because of the dispute where who is actually managing the forest Who has the right and who has the authority local governments? Have often not not have Local governments do not have the interest to govern Forest because it's after all the central government is responsible So now they are trying to make local governments more responsible and in this case It is at the provincial level another complication is of course the forest management units, which is a new Construct which is supposed to manage the forest at the at the site level But where is this located at the district level or at the provincial level now? It's somewhere hanging in between because the decision is still made at the central level So there is this 90 million hectares of forest estate Officially gasseted or maybe a large area of that is gasseted as forest estate For which the minister of environmental forestry is responsible But there's all these other layers in between who are not responsible, but Are there using the forest or influenced by the forest? so This question then becomes very difficult because then where is should red be located Should be should it be managed through the minister of forestry like it's now set in law or should it also be default to the local government then 90 million hectare of official forest estate But there is also a debate a discussion or a discourse of what is actually comes forest and what is a and whether RDD then should also Be aligned to the new definition and it's not settled yet, but there was a question Saying is all that is green now in Indonesia forest including I don't know how many million of oil palm and the new regulation on RDD at the Minister of Forestry actually says all all Land covered by forest and we still do not really know whether the forest is then defined according to law Like what it said now forest is an area covered by trees Designated by the Ministry of Forestry as forest or is it the biological unit of land covered by forest? Or is it the the backyard of people where they have planted forest as their as their safety box because Selling a tree when your child is going to school has always been traditional way of Ensuring your future. So there is all these questions on the one hand the rat is still there. It's still being discussed It's still being developed on the other hand there's all these other developments going on so we don't know where it's going Hope for the best thank you Manager it's all very key and common. I think we've heard across a number of the country contexts. Thank you Yeah, would you like to discuss some of the the challenges and Enabling factors that you have even in this readiness stage what has created the momentum for the investment and development of the Preparation in red plus so far Yeah, we have some some of the issue that to implement the replace in the in the readiness is also So one of the issues is coordination issue among the relevant stakeholder, especially in the relevant ministry so it made the rep less progress slow and then Yeah, the inconsistent of the rep less vocal person in each ministry So it's the changing of the focus person or it is difficult to continue to the decision-making process Or they just these change you And then did the deforestation in rating number is 1.7 percent according to the fi 2015 especially in the agriculture sector and it is not not Agriculture sector the driver is not under the forestry sector and outside the forestry sector So we need to negotiate with the another ministry in order to address this kind of the driver. So there is the issue and then Currently many rep less project are implementing forest department and Another donor country and then and you and CSU The rep less project are implementing Most of the rep less project are sponsored by the Indonesian adorners. So there is no private involvement in the rep less so so in the We form the rep less test force for the first time we invite all of the line ministry after that According to their recommendation. We invite the Second test for meeting. We also invite the rep less vocal person in each rep less project from the NGO and in the forest department as well in order to Provide the guiding and cooperation among the rep less project But that does hold we also invite the other NGO and CSU project. There are many projects in order to Know that what they are going on and in line with the mission roadmap Robless roadmap. So in the full Testful will be in June. So that time we will invite the private sector and then they will become The member of the rep less test force. So maybe that stuff from that time the private sector might be involved in the Robless So and then we we have a test for after above the test book we have a National Environmental Conservation and Climate Change Committee. There is a ministry level. So we also Report that what is the rep less is going on to the minister level another for the line ministry and Then we have if we also made a commitment in the NDC that to extend the forest area up to 30% 30% of the Razzle forest and 10 up to 10% of the Protective area protected area system will be a stand up to 10% of the total land area. So currently that is just only the Around 30% but we will Extend the 40% so there is a commitment from the forestry center So in the NDC we commit only the forestry center and the energy center So it means that in in order to address the climate change and Myanmar Commit, just only the forestry center and the energy center so forestry center play the important role in the NDC And then yeah after the Paris Agreement. Yeah, we have a some policy changes. We have First apartment issue the log-in ban stuff from 2016 to 2017 the whole year For the whole country just one year So car and then the bugle region that is the high deforestation area So we issue the log-in ban for the 10 years that from 2016 to 2026 and then We initiated the reforestation program Myanmar reforestation every habilitation program for 10 years that from 2016 and 2020 so in the reforestation program also we not only the reforestation but also the Assisting the nature region region and then yeah other forest-related activity in order to increase the forest cover and Then we also made that amendment the forest law now since drug is complete, but it's not the finalized yet so the We think that the illegal login is the one of the driver of deforestation so The in the forest law days a week in like a punishment days The forest law is issue in the 1992 so maybe but the punishment the like in term of the Finance I mean like it's quite low So it because of that maybe the illegal cutter is not Respect to the forest law. So maybe that that's why we amend the forest law But it's not yet issue, but just since drug Finish and then we also Do the Community forestry instruction we amend that that one also issue in the do 1995 but now yeah in order to Have fit with the current situation. So we revise it So now we have a many initiated and for the world bless UNR program is Start from the 2016 and 2020 there is a phase one preparation of the full element after the 2020 we will have a phase two like a same demonstration activity in some area and yeah So we have a commit we also commit in the NTC and then many initiated in stuff after the 2016 and so We hope that replacements will be a more active in the future Great, thanks. So there's been a transition in some of the policy priorities within the country That's really raised some of these issues to it to a higher level of prominence nationally Combined with the international processes and the commitments that Myanmar's made to NDCs have been sort of crucial in Creating the momentum towards Having a readiness in place Great. Thank you. Finally from Ethiopia Would have been some of the The things that have driven Success so far and also constrained some of the achievements Okay, thank you so much. So I think it's better to start with some of the strategies the developmental strategies that's my country that Ethiopia is doing so far my country already develops the climate resilient green economy strategy since 2011 and This one is starts to be conducted at the sectoral level and the government give and interesting Just give an interesting attention to the thought of the forestry sector and the different sectors or the different pillars Who are going to implement the CRG strategy are divided into four the first one is agriculture The second one is forestry the third one is energy the fourth one is That of the industry transport in the buildings So the forestry sector is getting an interesting attention from the government besides in order to implement this strategy the government Besides that of the green growing transformation in the growth in transformation plan the second one that is the second one Which is a start in 2015 and we're going to finalize in 2021 so in the field the government plan to plant by refrostation and prostitution activity in to increase the size of the forest area from 15.5 million when it was started in 2015 Currently the forest size is about 17.7 Million hectare of land is in Ethiopia is already covered by the course So to increase from 15.5 during that study was conducted into 2015 to 20 percent so which implied that the government have Just already has a high interest in this a forestry sector and in 2013 the Ministry of Environment forest and climate is by the way the forestry sector was in the minister of agriculture in a trice was However, just separating the forestry sector from minister of agriculture So there is an independent any situation the minister of environmental forest and climate change established in 2030 and in this minister of environment forest and climate change that is replaced secretive and rare plus secretaries is in order to you know do the readiness phase doing a lot of stuff in order to Comes to the finalization stage of this readiness steps capacity building stuff Just opening of different coordination unit in different subregions like to gray Amohara southern nation nationality and Oromia and also currently it is planned to Open the replace coordination unit in the benchmark right now So we're going to have five coordination unit in Ethiopia So we can say that Ethiopia has you know a high interest in this forestry issues In the CRG strategy it is seriously put that One of the great emitters in the country by the way agriculture and forest area the Great contribution for the carbon dioxide emission porosity from porosity sir 7% and from agriculture it is about 50% of Greenhouse gas it is emitted and from certain percent it is from the industry transport and other stuffs Because the country is in the developing country So in the CRG strategy is also explained that by our first issue for station activities Believed that the country going to read with this carbon dioxide emission by 50% It's expected a lot of things from this forestry sector. So We can see that there is a lot of initiation by the government to you know develop this forestry and rare plus issue So the other interesting issue from my country that of the issue of social forestry or participatory force management issue so this participatory forest management was Just established 20 years 20 years back by that of the NGOs by a farm Africa and SOS and There was there was an interesting their Activities was conducted in the Oro marriage and that is in the Bali ecology Which is consists of greater than half a million hectare of land So before the government identifies before the government identifies and knows appreciate the Issue of this community forestry stuff. This NGOs was implemented that so from The revision of the new forest proclamation as I said before just the government ownership of the forest was given to state and private so as My colleague from Peru said that the you know the activities of the private sector into a base not as much and Still the bullies as I said the bullies in the hands of the government It was however in the reverse forest proclamation The government wants to include the community forest is and also the association foresters So I think it is one of the breakthrough in the forestry sector for in the future because the government include these community developers and Association for us developers by giving some incentives They can say and they're carbon, you know, they they can benefit they give a carbon tenure, right? They all the right in the certification right by the way There was no insert that mission that was there is no land type given to the community foresters The land was just given as assigned by stating assigned to the state and private So I think these are some of the breakthrough and some of the workers which are conducted regarding the forestry sector in my country Thank you I might leave that Discussion there for the moment, but there's plenty there that we can follow up within the discussions after the break I'd I'd like to thank each of our panelists for their insights and reflections I think it's quite interesting that despite the fact we come from very very different country contexts There are actually some very significant similarities in both the enabling factors and the constraints that you're all Experiencing you some of the common enabling factors that we touched on there were things like the the necessity of political will and commitment The requirement or the value of having multi-stakeholder engagement involving private sector and also successfully integrating multi levels of governance in Addressing some of these issues And the importance of deliberately investing in capacity to support the implementation of some of these Changes these policy developments Before we move on to the the coffee break which is coming up quite shortly I'd like to invite one of our colleagues and long-term collaborators on this research project professor Maria Brockhouse who is a professor of international forestry policy at Helsinki University To just provide some reflections and comments on what you've heard so far this morning Thank you very much Bethany. Good morning everybody or good noon. I could say as well Super honor to be here now I have one minute and the honor to kind of putting in a nutshell what you guys were all saying and to summarize the research We have done over the past decade on red plus Comparatively across the globe. I'm shaking a little bit because that's such a big task, but Perhaps the first thing I want to start with is by basically standing here and saying we are in the honeymoon phase If we look at the early beginners the red plus beginners. It's still honeymoon People happily flock together under this umbrella of red plus Because the conflict starts and you start to talk about policies and measures and they really get hard when you talk about results-based finance and That has something to do with power and politics that are really challenging and these Political struggles we heard from all of you. I think in your contributions right now, but we also see in our comparative research And these political struggles are of course not unexpected because Deforestation is driven very strongly by vested interests that are very established And that have a lot to do with a private sector Perhaps you had not in mind as we were calling for the private sector But that is very prominent and very much entangled with interest within bureaucratic systems also something we heard For example also from Brazil these struggles around the forest code So perhaps the private sector is already in the room even without waving their hand when you ask for it So political power struggles and then I found very fascinating and Concerning also that this kind of a red plus idea has been pushed back into a little box Which is a project box, which is Perhaps a forest sector box even though everybody knows you cannot tackle deforestation Within the forest sector because it's driven by drivers beyond the forest sector So what does that mean if it gets pushed back in this little box? What does that tell us is that part of this political struggle? That's also to really undermine efforts to hold deforestation and red plus is not the first effort that has been undertaken To hold deforestation, so it seems it gets really hard at the moment where you move out of this very easy to see technical Changes and really progress that is possible in this capacity Area when you move into policies and measures Implementation where we then really see that it hurts perhaps those interests That really don't want to change and that moves me also out of this kind of domestic Can't read is not a domestic problem as such. It's not a problem of forest-rich countries Who benefits from deforestation? Who are those that benefit and? Who are those that keep investing in activities that drive deforestation? So why this is also somewhat depressing? I think what we also heard is there are new coalitions These technical advances have brought new information that can help civil society Which I think came also through here To really hold state and private sector that made commitments a bit more accountable But that makes investments and I hope here in the room is civil society. Who is civil society? Research by the way is civil society as well Thank you. I think this makes it so important and that gives all of us also a responsibility I think to engage in this process and Contribute to holding accountable states countries forest-rich countries that committed in their NDCs But also I think and me myself coming from the north also coming from Germany living now in Finland since one year and a half Hello there who benefits again is the question so holding accountable I think Norway did that very interestingly and that is this kind of Norwegian pension fund If I'm not mistaken where they realized on the one hand we invest big time into Halting deforestation on the other hand we are investing in private sector activities and Benefiting from that in that drives deforestation So they kind of revised but only because civil society was pushing for that they revised Their investment strategies. This is homework for countries beyond the forest-rich countries that are sitting here And I think that's very important this whole accountability stuff as a way forward and My last point and then I stop and I think I've used my two minutes, but I would like to challenge not only have ye But perhaps nearly everybody in this room because we are using the term private sector so lightly Who is that? I think you are talking about green investors I'm talking about deeply vested interests driving deforestation. My private sector is looking very different than yours My private sector looks a little bit like the private sector Patricia meant that was very busy with the Brazilian parliament I think in 2011-12 and I think we have to be more specific when we talk about private sector. I think it's a must to think That the private sector is not in the room and I'm saying that based on many years of research where we looked at Who is speaking and representing what interests? And what we found is that which is also the role of the state of course to some extent state actors do Represent business interests and living in Finland The whole development agencies ministries are representing home countries business interests I'm not sure if there are any representatives here From donor countries for example or payment countries, but this is a reality and I think we have to be very careful when we use this term private sector and I do think that this wave of calling for the private sector who seems to be not in the room It's a total illusion. Yes. The private sector is in the room and that's Something that has to get out. We need transparency and we need specificity about who is this private sector And with that I stop and I could go on and on Because it's ten years of comparative research with all of you guys. So really an honor to be here Thanks so much Maria for weaving those threads together and also laying down those challenges We look forward to exploring some of these ideas with all of you here after our coffee break We're going to conclude the first half of this forum here We'll have a coffee break quite quickly if we don't mind maybe 10 15 minutes And then we'll reconvene and over that time. Please feel free to approach our panel and Get some contact details to follow up further speak to you all again in about 10 or 15 minutes the involvement and inclusion of These multi stakeholders must go beyond participation in meetings and sharing information like that they must be involved in the decision-making process so it will be true engagement and also those persons who are representing their various Constituencies whether you come from private sector indigenous communities or you know, wherever that that those persons must Have the ownership and responsibility to report to their constituents so that they truly represent their constituents You know and keep them informed and the process of identifying those stakeholders and stakeholder representatives is important And so you need that kind of scoping process for the water of better description to identify who are the stakeholders? Who needs to be engaged who is involved and ensure that the process works truly for the benefit of all Thank you. I know that there's been some interesting multi-stakeholder initiatives Functioning in Brazil at the sub-national level. I'm not sure if Patricia is in a position to comment on those But I might throw to you yourself and then to Peru Yeah, as Vanessa said, multi-stakeholder is really important In Brazil like the super national Level they are invited to participate also inside the federal level. There are like the national commission on red plus Where they have a place? to talk but still there's some deficiencies as I said before but also not only about the stakeholders also about The levels and you can find synergies. The problem is to apply this in the long term. So usually as such Platforms are applied only in the short term and this makes the implementation of the red plus process difficult And just before you move on and Patricia you said that they often work in the short term But not the long term. Why is that? Is that because they're a donor driven or a projectized? Kind of intervention or where some of the reasons they haven't endured. Yes Like you're saying because to change the political process is really difficult So such measures will be only applied in the short term because And this also take time You have to is a long process to to implement Polis as red plus is not from today to tomorrow So in doing this process you have many changes as in our case the government change So they have other priorities They try to do other things and this is put behind other things are Come first and so this get is in the middle the middle of the process I think the multi stakeholder commitment I believe my participation is not the final objective It's just a part of the process to have a better governance in our in our first in our experience as a consultant company we help some like banks and insurance company to to to have the GSG inventory and then we show that they can be like a neutral carbon and It's very very interesting when you teach to the CFO or CEO how red projects works like You know the CEO of the company start to ask if if they can like neutralize the carbon footprints and sometimes when the company is very interesting we Invite the company to To the field to see the project to talk with native communities and I think this This is a part of the process when each company Entering the in the new arena and we have like a very very good experience with one company and they they pay like $100,000 for a red project and then they like create a commercial in the TV and million of Rubians see like this company like have the carbon footprints and then they there are like neutral carbon and The the the people like my mother start to talk carbon footprints like neutral carbon footprints It's a very good way to do business and another company start to ask if this one do that Can I do that and you know, it's like the participation is it's not the final object is it just Part of the process to have a better government. It was clear I Just wanted to add a little bit about the case studies in Vietnam because in Vietnam we have to parallel multi government multi stakeholder forum One is actually established it by the UN right together with the government of Vietnam under the Vietnam Red Cross network and basically we have the multi stakeholder forum where actually you have the sub Take a working group Under the national network and each of the network you will chair between one of the government agency and another CSO so if you have a beneficiary Mechanism under red gloss then you have a chairman or co-chairman one is from the government and one from the CSO and actually this model work pretty well for the first few years from 2012 and 2013 because not just only a Why variety of stakeholder was invited in that workshop? But the most important thing is there was the key government agency will be there And then they actually take into account all of the things stakeholder talk and then they report back to the party and they But then since from 2013 and 2016 you see the decline in the interest of both private sector and also Actors in that forum because first of all the government is no longer interested in red plus so there was not there So even though the stakeholder discuss a lot about the policy issue and they come up with a lot of proposals Nobody actually be there to you know kind of take taken it up and then actually transform it into a meaningful outcome So even though the activity is ongoing But basically the whole multi stakeholder forum kind of deactivates in 2013 now And the government and also both the state but also the non-selectors are not willing to participate in it We have another multi stakeholder forum Which is that the Vietnam NGO kind of network under the Fleti And in contrast to the other event we just don't know driven It's were actually established by the national CSO themselves And they was actually also doing the same format inviting many stakeholders from different group private sector international angel download come And that network doesn't require any kind of financial resource to sustain And then the CSO themselves organize that activities and then they're actually very strong in bringing all stakeholders together and Provide a lot of input for the law revision And they kind of connecting it to Governments so you see up to parallel initiative and one work very well and the other doesn't So I think that is realized a lot on how you structure that multi stakeholder forum But also it's just not only about you go there But every single one who participates in this forum wanted to see their input Can lead to something and that the network, you know didn't fulfill their commitment So in our Surveys over the time Which is one of the most disappointment according to the people Is that that multi stakeholder forum under red plus doesn't fulfill its mission And therefore nobody are interested in it and in a way that is very sad because In term of the legal framework This multi stakeholder forum is the only window opportunities That by law that CSO are invited and then you can actually contribute to the policies making But with the arrangement and with the structures and how it run Yeah, it didn't make to the finer way. Yeah Okay, thanks twi I know that it's a slightly frustrating answer to a question But I would also highlight the fact that there is an entire module in this research program that is studying these multi stakeholder initiatives So in two or three years we'd be much better positioned to provide a really concise answer to that But I would encourage you to get in touch with Ann Larson and her team and track some of the the progress around those multi stakeholder initiative studies as well And the might move on to the the second slightly challenging question we have here about does red plus work full stop I I'm going to preface The response by saying I guess it really does depend on how you define red But given the limitations Just a very quick response from everyone on the panel gut instinct in your country in your context Would you say that to date Where you are Is red plus working Yeah, actually robler is not new It is the mechanism that in order to achieve the sustainability of forest management Because they in the rob plus also read is a deforestation degradation So it's trying to reduce the emission from the deforestation degradation and plus activity also the conservation and enhancement of our carbon start So that is not new just change the name So so I I I would say that red plus is working Because our country already Is start the forest management system to achieve the sustainable forest management So So robless have a incentive mechanism it is based on the performance performance So we can get a indonesian example based on our performance So it means that so robless is not new so it is working You wanted a simple answer I don't know because it's actually not right yet because we are still Doing a lot of the definitions the preparation and so so in fact It's not as it is efficient. It hasn't been really tried yet But I think as an idea it really works because it is raised a lot of Issues which otherwise would have been buried in the overall discussions So in the issue of gross sectoral issue by the way red plus without You know precipitating different stakeholders red plus cannot achieve its objective overall So in order to achieve its objective red plus must you know Must precipitate different stakeholders who are really who are really relevant for these red plus objectives So in my country, there is there is gross sectoral I mean the multi stakeholder are precipitated in the red plus issues and contributes their parts who make it sustainable, you know All the inputs all those Activates all the results which is obtained by The red plus it is going to be presented to all the stream committee and all Necessary partners who are part of the red plus committee. So the second one is that the red plus work You said that it is a simple question, but it is not a simple question by the way. Yeah So to say yes, I have to say something and to say I have to put something but it really needs The government effort to make this happen, you know to work The red plus to become effective to become equitable to become efficient all the policies must be okay All the policies must be you know work in the element with the sustainable forest management issue. So I'm different To say yes and to say no, but the government needs to work more and more to You know to Improve its policy, which is a letter to the red plus. So it needs some research investigation I have to say that I love your question I think it's like The same question that a hammer works. You can use a hammer to put a needle in the wool And also you can break someone's head, you know, it depends how you use red and For me, it's like sustainable forest management. We we create electric car. We went to the moon. We can manage the forest It's not too easy. I think yes red works No, just great Yeah, I think that I I wouldn't agree with Moira's at least in Vietnam context Red does a lot of things it doesn't work well But one of the things it worked very well is because many issues without red It will never be brought up to the table For example, the topic of indigenous people, you know, transparencies in government it will never be giving given a space to talk about that in many You know kind of sensitive political context and that is the thing that we should not forget about that Also, I think that by on our research when we asked the converter seen 2011 until now What have they seen at the biggest achievement on red plus and what red plus work? And I think that's in vietnam context the stakeholder Defined that the abilities of red plus to open up new topic And also Contribute directly to the forest government improvement is one of the things that they see red group very well In term of the impact on forest and people livelihood. I think that we have an earlier slide We got based on our preliminary findings from model two On the actual impact or whether or not red work to improve forest Cover and forest qualities and also the local livelihood And we have some evidence over there and if you need more information on that sub-national level Again, we would be more than happy to contact you with our college in Medusa Okay, sorry. I totally agree with tui because in brazil was more or less the same Such issues as synergies between agriculture and conservation and forestry was never spoken before And through red plus You have this channel to try to bring such issues together and this opens a communication Between such sectors and that never having spoke before. Of course, there are some issues They still have to be deal with but I think Depending on your perspective and from this perspective. Yeah Red plus is working Love your question Value of us take hold the question a lot of times we don't take into consideration skeptics I'm really glad you asked the question in the context of giana. Yes. I'm very happy to tell you why She said short answer All right, thank you So it seems that there's a bit of a consensus that red has been a way of building on some existing knowledge And giving it some real momentum and direction But there is some some questions about how it's being used and how it's going to address some of the challenges But overall a fairly optimistic response that red holds some some real potential to make a difference I'm going to go back to the audience now. Is there a second round of questions? Yes, gentlemen in the middle Thank you. My name uh zulfira from double lbf indonesia My question is uh, yeah from the lesson from the the vietnam Yeah, I see that that red now blend it into the ps. Yeah, uh, could you tell a little bit more? idea Work blend into the And the second question is on the I think they're the brazil. Yeah, I think one of the successful of red Intermentation in brazil because of involvement of the indigenous people. Yeah by getting their What indigenous people territories recognizing around that? Yeah And how do you think if it is the applicability of That's approach to other country and what uh, perhaps require To make it possible in other country that also have the indigenous people or something like that. Thank you Thank you. Are there any other questions at this point or should we yes just at the frontier? Hi, um, I'm natalie cambell from rights and resources initiative I um Well, I was curious to hear And and we're kind of familiar and some of you mentioned tenure issues So I'm curious to hear how All of your different country platforms engage with carbon rights within the broader context of tenure issues Um, also within the broader context of payments for results based services um, but I also wanted to ask maybe another broader harder question to answer Which would be what is your opinion on the question should tenure be a precondition to red and to red plus. Thank you There's a three fairly gc questions to get on with so we have two specific ones one to um, directed to Tui about the relationship between Red plus and the payment for environmental services in vietnam Tui, do you want to address that first? Uh, yes, so um, actually, let me come back a little bit. Um, in In vietnam We had a national payment for forest environmental services way before red plus Because the national policies on payment for environmental services already established it in 2008 And since 2008 until now, we already developed the whole food system of payment distribution, but also the monitoring evaluation on It cannot be called a result based payment like red plus But basically the whole idea is that is similar context That of the service providers can only be paid if they demonstrate that they doing some good for environmental services And when red plus were first brought up to to vietnam case and over the time The government actually doesn't consider red plus at one separate National project, but it has always been seen at one of the Component of the national payment for environmental services And if you're looking at how the government designing its payment distribution At with red plus it's actually primarily based on the existing payment distribution That the government already developed for payment for environmental services And that's how it's actually evolved over time um, I think that lays Nowadays we have the red fund we We're supposed to receive our of the payment from donors and also private sector to pay for red plus activity And at the moment the government have the national pass fund and the The red plus fund is just a sub account of that one only And it is in a discussion whether or not you need to harmonize a protocol because basically with the domestic PFAS policy, you don't have to provide the whole transparency And external kind of auditor But with the the red funds because it's actually follow the international protocol There was a tension whether or not, you know that actually a lie And and how it's worked out But the fact is now and I said before we don't have any more red funds because Of uncertainties about the funding I'm on steam not quite sure But in the law by itself Red plus is defy at one type of sub component under the national payment for environmental services Thank you, and patricia we're inviting you to share some lessons and insights from brazil's experience in working with their indigenous territories Okay, so in in the amazon 44 percent of the amazon is declared From the brazilian amazon is declared as an indigenous territory what I think is To highlight something from the indigenous people in brazil is that they are quite Really organized and supported by the civil society as well They have fought really hard to be involved in this context of red plus And they even got a place inside the national commission on red plus So I think this is the differential About indigenous organizations or community in brazil But of course, it's still there is It's still a lot to to be done in this context there because even In the last years there was like an increase of threatening of the human rights from indigenous peoples with An increase of rate of murders and death Because of dispute of of land so Yeah, I think this is One of the the aspect why we could be a little bit successful in treating Involving the indigenous people inside the context of red Great, thank you. Can I pass on to venezia to have a first gold addressing the question in relation to to tenure and its Place in red plus so how How does tenure relate to carbon rights and whether tenure is a necessary precondition? I guess in a way for red plus So in gaiana the the policy Addressing climate change and going along a green path has been using the The forest estate that is considered is the national patrimony And so any funds derived from you know, p.s Have been applied for national benefit So there's no precondition for You know tenure rights before you can benefit from from the funds earned. However There's this I think I alluded earlier What is referred to in my country is an opt-in mechanism Where the indigenous communities That have title to their lands Can derive funds, you know additional funds so additional additional benefit If they were to include their lands into the you know, the the the the area that is assessed For deforestation and forest degradation Yeah Does anyone else want to address that question of tenure and red plus In indonesia in the beginning carbon rights was really tied to Red plus but then the issue of tenure itself is so complicated that by now We forget to talk about carbon carbon rights also because carbon rights are then tied to the trees and trees are from the state forest estate so The state will have the right to it. But there is In the already the discussion itself tenure is Put as a precondition to red because it's basically who is again who will be responsible in the end So the government can say it's all state forest land But Unless they sort out the tenure issues nobody will actually be responsible So then if nobody is responsible for land or the forest on it then nobody can actually implement redd So that is basically the issue. So unlike uyana We don't really have indigenous communities already having title although we are talking to it But unless we sort that out, there is still going to be dispute on and on and on so in Ethiopia the issue of carbon rights the issue of carbon tenure is it's integrated in the new forest proclamation again And the government that is what I said you before there are the government divided the ownership right into four the private states Community and association And the government starts to give the carbon right the carbon right and land insatiable land title Which was not there in the previous period So the carbon tenure issue is it is coming to consideration by the young government in the carbon tenure You know when if somebody had the land so the benefit it is not only from the tree but the People's starts starts to gain This carbon the income from the carbon so the carbon tenure is very important So the second question is carbon tenure issue Tenure should be a precondition for it plus. I think it's yes. Yes people, you know, you know in order to invest much of your time with this red plus issue you have to gain something So the benefit of getting something it is not from you know from not the trace But carbon plus non-carbon benefit must be benefited from the tree. So the carbon tenure issue It must be the precondition for it plus achievement setting. So it's my opinion actually precondition I believe when when a baby start to to work The precondition is you know, it's going to fall I think the red process is it's the same. It's like Learning by doing is you if we want to design like a perfect process for red We we we never can try if it's it works I think we have to try and the process we we are like modifying the process to to have a Better in our case in Peru. We have like Like national approach and also project approach and that means that We use like international protocols like both a carbon standard and They check the I think in Vietnam it was similar to in Vietnam is When we first had the discussion on red plus the carbon right topic is very hard and it's almost in Central discussion in every meeting that we have but soon realizing of how complex it is and You know the mismatch between different type of tenure or system and the complex within even our own law Then the discussion on carbon right has not been evolved for the last five years at least in vietnam But I think that like if you wanted to learn more we have a published paper Which actually looking at the carbon right issue and also analyze the Politicians and legal framework in seven countries not with some of the countries we are having here But we will be more than happy to share that paper with you if you are interested I think like If it's a precondition, I'm not sure but of course tenure is fundamental Because in the end tenure is totally related with beneficiary So If you see in brazil 27 of the amazon is still in dispute So it's really difficult to to implement such approach as red plus in a situation like this so What else As the government in brazil are not trying to deal with red plus is a at the the project level This makes even more complicated Because then the government is delaying Even more and more and more to talk about To talk about that they try to implement first like to to establish the framework And we don't know when they they would like to talk about that But um, for example, one of the proposals of the civil society in brazil and they Try to do a systems in stock influx Of carbon to try to to to be like to find an equity between the federal and the sub-national But this is only a proposal and it's not yet adopted Between the red plus framework If I if I can just Okay, listen to my colleagues. I've it makes me think of of the approach to giana in in giana. So in giana the Funds that are being derived from, you know, the Pest is seen as another income stream into the country's GDP Just as when we export sugar and we earn from it or timber or whatever and those earnings are for the benefit of all the people So it's the same concept with what is derived from from, you know from red So lentino issue is very complicated in yama So we we are revising the land use policy in order to address that that issue So but yeah, and then because of the red plus we have a many state holder consultation meeting in the In order to do the safeguard process. So the time we address the lentino issue in that Time but but through the consultation meeting it can be improved. Thank you. Um, maria Would you like to put a question or share a comment or a reflection? Just also to comment from a more global perspective perhaps on this question of Rise as a precondition to start this red plus I do have to say the first time I think this question was asked that I heard it was 2007 in bali at every single cop ever since maybe tin This question was raised but actually the issue here. I think which also came out of these countries is that Actually, we have a chicken and egg problem red plus is supposed to bring Transformational change as an idea as a concept and really change away from business as usual of deforestation At the same time it needs major change So how do you get that and I think to put one Whore to to put in there a sequence might be dangerous as we heard also from gravier from peru This baby might be never born and never walk at all. So Also one has to say and I think we forget that here a little bit. We have the wash off framework And their safeguards are explicit now the country reality is that the safeguards reporting Are very small and very unsatisfactory So perhaps we have to change these questions and really help You know if you want to it's a country question if you want to do red plus, but how to do it equitably needs these kind of Points but not as do you need it as a precondition? But how do you make it good and how do you realize it within and I think the Indonesian example flexed a little bit also some other countries that tenure came really to the forefront And red plus enabled this kind of platform to discuss these issues But making something out of it seeing this really major change in the governance frameworks for our for your forests Is I think the next step and that is where again these questions might help but not as a sequence. I would say Let's make this wash off framework and to safeguards requirements really strong and alive and not just an ocean Open up for another round of questions. Are there other questions from the floor? Maybe it's a reflective question. I think I've had this question for a long time How do we make sure that red plus agenda targets all the good intentions withstand the different election cycles or different government regimes so Maybe All of you can share what happens with the civil society movement. How united are there in the in this front? We are thinking about for example here in Indonesia in approaching Different candidates or even the electoral committee to make sure that this agenda is in the political debates. It's in the Debates between candidates either be climate change if you want to make it general Whether it is red plus and forestry But how do we make sure that agenda stays even we have different politicians or different people in power Thank you Any other questions at this point? No, well people are thinking we may as well get started on that one. So How do you how you've seen that we can ensure continuity across political changes? And what is the role of civil society in keeping that focus on this transformational change agenda? See this is the key function in taking multiple questions. It gives people a chance to collect their thoughts Thanks, Vanessa. Yeah, perhaps I can stick my neck out here Going back to the question You asked about stakeholders and stakeholder involvement To me in the in the in the in the in the context of Gaia and it has built national ownership So it not only the political will because when you think of transitions from one government to the next You know, you have the concept of you know, with it will it remain within the policy interests? Moving from one political party to the next or one regime to the next But if you have great interest naturally from all the various groups and Going back as well in terms of the composition of your your stakeholder committee if it also includes You know members of parliament and and persons from political parties Then that helps in the transition or at least I can say it has helped in the instance of gaiana So far because In the instance of gaiana you had You know the president at that time who piloted the low carbon development strategy and this you know Got to the nori agreement and was out there You know Advocating and pushing and so on and then in 2015 you had this transition to a new government Which was not in office kind of a coalition government, but which was not in office for over 20 years And so there was a kind of a you know kind of a waiting period nationally to see what direction The country would take And the direction we are going to know is that we now have a successor to the low carbon development strategy In the form of the green state development strategy a lot of terms and acronyms and so on but along the same pathway So I guess in the instance to answer your question in the instance of you know, how do you bridge that transition? It goes back to you know, how how the civil society organizations and all the various stakeholders how involved engaged Interests that they are and how they can push Thank you. And does anybody else want to comment on that one? I I know peru has gone through multiple changes in government over recent years Is there something you'd like to add? We have like president election each five years and Each five years our company looks for fans to put climate change in the in the arena. And it's very hard because One of each three Peruvian lives in a city and they never Walk around the forest and don't know nothing about real trees and monkeys It's hard to put the the climate change debate in in the political arena and I don't know really the people doesn't matter about climate change And I believe like the the transform much Change Is like when not just the NGOs and companies talk about climate change and forest is when Each person when want to buy like a table or a chair as if this would is from like sustainable forest management and I think we are like in we are beginning this process when the people are like the millennials and are more like conscious about the the environmental impacts and For people who do research I think you have to put like 50 percent of your energy in your research And the other 50 percent in how you can communicate these to really Be useful for the other person because if you put 100 percent of your energy just in the paper I Think even even though with a lot of political instability For example, not one way, but it could be like one Yeah, one way is to keep the civil society Strong at the moment in brazil That the civil society started like to move Themselves and start to push the government to try to deal with climate change and deforestation Things start to happen. And even though it came another government red went through these That's why we have a red Decree in a National strategy established, but Um What I think also like uh under the framework of red plus what it was Good is because although most of the attention for example is paid to the amazon We started also to to look at the other biomes that we have Uh in the country So for example, brazil released in 2017 the reference level for the sejado biome so I don't know if you read is capable of assure really to To bring zero deforestation, but I think it's a we could get there and the red plus Discussion is Make a lot of differences because we as we said before we're talking about Issues we paying attention in the other issues Even like the the population in brazil is seeing that it will not only the amazon We have other biomes. We have other Biodiversity hotspots that should also be protected Yeah, I think that uh The forestry center has uh, I would say that red plus has got more attention In discover in the new government So it's depend on the government transition, of course, but As long as we try we Suffer from the climate change impact The government also think about the forestry center is how important in the climate change So we suffer from the landslide and then flood even in the capital city So they think about the how important of the Forestry so it could say that red plus because red plus also more focus on the forestry for deforestation So yeah, so of course I They have a many challenges the man the other center if government transition But as long as I think that as long as we suffer from the climate change The rub less can walk in Myanmar even And do the government transition Answer from Indonesia, of course, we have Experienced how a change in government has sort of put red back in the box of forestry Instead of the multi stack stakeholder Almost movement. It was but we might learn from the tenure movement Because in 98 there was a call for overall reform in the tenure And by the time it was allowed by the government there was the The The Representative council decision for agrarian reform the symbols of society was not ready So there was an opening but civil society was not ready to use that opening On the other hand Aman has been pushing for indigenous rights And already they provide an opening so it took this opening and it moved its agenda forward So I guess in order to make sure that our RID or climate change agenda and the tenure reform agenda Will survive changes in government civil society should stay involved and engage despite the disappointments Of of progress and be prepared So we should we need to understand the changing situations and Take the opportunity when it arrives Are there any other final burning questions from our our audience? Yes, a colleague for me. I'm Thank you very much. I want to follow up about the preconditions for 10 length tenure I think it is very important in our country and also To Be conditioned for land tenure issue is so important to achieve the three In the future and also to achieve participation, especially for the indigenous people Even though in our country national land use policy 2016 Recognize the right of indigenous people at this moment community forestry is only the legal tenure To recognize the community rights But for the people who live in the mountainous area as for example in chainstay, they don't want to Establish the community forest Rather than that they get their tenure. They want to get the another tenure So for me, I think the diversification of tenure To be in line with the current land use condition is very important It should be precondition for the replers So I would like to know the our penis idea from other countries the question you're posing to the panel was Sorry, what specifically that you would like their reflections on Pre-conditions Pre-conditions for replers. So diversification of tenure is very important To achieve the three in through people participation Maybe it's a final conclusion for each of our panelists. What do you see as being the important Pre-conditions of features of successful red class I think we don't have enough time we have just to start and Yes, we have to start and and try and try and find the best answer I think it's like it just bring back to me one of the one of the project that we are doing now with Myra is live on the asian social policy working group in vietnam and I think that like over the time Sometime the land you rise certificate at least in vietnam context is the document to prove that you have some sort of cq 10 tenurities and in fact in many student communities where we work They don't want to have that type of land you rise certificate because as you said it didn't come with the benefit Because for example in in in our countries most of the bad land and degraded land and they so isolated and it's difficult to assess Then the government aside for the student community and now I give you the Degraded land and then eat your responsibility to We grow and we greening the land So actually from the perspective of many student community is a burden rather than the benefit because what can actually you benefit from that land And also in many communities where we're working with particularly close to the national park Like in the past they are really trying to discuss with the provincial government to give them a piece of land you rise certificate But when it come it's come with so many Restriction for example if you have this land you are not allowed to do so you cannot go into your own forest and doing You are not allowed to go to your traditional forest and continue doing the practice that we used before So it's come to the question. Maybe like a ask, you know, whether or not the condition of the tenure security comes Exactly what the local people want and it is come with just only benefit and rise But also the burden and a lot of responsibility that May not be exactly what you know, the local communities want. So these are very complex issues. I think yeah What is preconditions for red plus? I think one of the most important Is political will and really to recognize that the first station is a problem so I think also To recognize it to understand that without to use the network source in a proper and intelligent way We're not going to survive. I think it's pretty clear, but I think it's It's difficult It's only difficult to recognize this. We know the answer, but We know also how to do it, but we don't want to do it probably For fear of not repeating myself with regard to the need for tenure Tenure rights in the context of Guyana So our main economic earners and the funds derived from those Are used to improve the services and facilities across the country like any other You know any other country and so And and the ability to be able to earn that finance Is lies in the responsibility of the government and the regulatory agencies ensure the necessary policies and enforcement and so are in place But not having Title to the land does not preclude you from being able to derive benefits I mean to also think of what benefits are you talking about if it's benefits that you get cash That you put in your money in your in your pocket or if it's a benefit that you know improves Other aspects your livelihood and so on However indeed as we said If communities that have tenure Can in our instance opt in to The scheme that you can earn You know, you know more finance for your community It comes with the ability and the need to meet the requirements That you can monitor you can maintain you can verify if you can report And so communities will need to have that ability and that willingness to comply one aspect of what we have been doing in Guyana is Doing what we call a CMR the community monitoring reporting and verification in the communities and helping to improve their own capacity So that when they are ready and based on f pic And based on their own decisions, they can decide whether they want to be included in this process And have the capacity to be included or not I think for the LED what Maria said was In order to forget to be To be implemented it needs change. So there is need for change to push for change. So if tenure means That the right or the ability to To obtain benefits from red that we should We should work to make the change to allow tenure change, but if If sorting out the tenure just means that we shift the responsibility Over the governance of forest to local communities Maybe we shouldn't talk tenure. We should talk What what change needs to be for the good governance To allow A good governance for it Thank you All right, I'd like to thank all of our panel for your Your insights and reflections today and to our to our audience for posing challenging and stimulating questions We're breaking now for lunch. So please feel free to continue the dialogue Overlunch before you leave. Please take a moment to fill in the evaluation forms that are on your Your tables. We do take that stuff quite seriously And again, thank you so much for participating and please give our panel a warm. Thank you