All right. Hello, Randy. How are you doing today? We vote Chris. Great to be with you.  And we're going to be talking about good reasons for bad feelings. When I came across your book, it was it just blew my mind because I ever since I got sober nine years ago and, you know, my addiction started with, you know, self-medicating depression and anxiety. I was like trying to figure out ways to manage my mental health and all these other things. And your book was the first one why I came across. I'm like, Oh, like it really got me interested in evolutionary psychology and kind of what your book title is. I think that's the perfect book title. Good reasons for bad feelings. So can you know, Chris, I wish I just called it evolutionary psychiatry. Because people, you know, it's kind of a long title and people like short titles. But really what it is is trying to put psychiatry in a solid scientific foundation. Yeah, you started like your book before that, which I apologize. I have not read yet because biology books are difficult for me. But you started with evolutionary biology. What what led you to getting ideas for just even researching this and writing about it? You know, it was originally after I had been on the psychiatry faculty at University of Michigan for about 10 years, I was frustrated. Well, I wanted to find some kind of solid scientific foundation. It didn't seem to me that people all had brain diseases. And it didn't seem to me that cyclonellysis would be all and then though I did lots of behavior therapy and I wanted something where I could integrate all these different ways of helping people and trying to understand. So I wandered over to the museum of all places where there were a bunch of Greek biologists and they they basically said, what?  You don't know about how evolution explains behavior. How is that possible? And I spent basically the rest of my life trying to help everybody explain that. But I took a big side trip for about 25 years because before explaining mental disorders, you got to explain disease in general. Why the heck did natural selection leave us so vulnerable to cancer and heart disease and hemorrhoids and acne? Yeah, all those were big. Yeah. Yeah. And I and I did get a better understanding of it. Like it it helped me get it because, you know, a lot of us who struggle with mental illness were like, why? Why me and all these other things?  Is that safe to say? The meaning of this gets such a simplistic view, isn't it? There's something wrong with the with the mechanism, you know? I'm interested, Deirey, more from you, Chris, about your own experiences and how they fit with all this. But let me just emphasize what I think you grasped. We're asking an entirely different question here. We had almost all research and all the self-help books say, what's wrong with this person? How can they be fixed quick? And I'm taking two steps back from that and asking, how come we all are vulnerable to depression? How can we all are vulnerable to addiction? Why didn't natural selection make us more robust and more happy? And why don't we all just cooperate in little happy lives, you know? And those questions have to be answered by asking how natural selection shaped us and why it didn't do a better job. Yeah, yeah. And by the way, feel free to ask me whatever you like because I love learning about me and I'm probably going to ask you some questions about my personal experience. But I guess a good place to start because I feel it was very enlightening to me. And as I mentioned, when we first started talking, I my audience was largely a mental health audience. And I explained to him, like, hey, check out this guy's book, you know? But when you started talking with, you know, clients, patients about some of these ideas of how we evolve, like you have some little stories in there, like, how does it help people to understand like the root causes and why why we evolved this way? You know, already we're going to how does it help? And we're going to go there in great depth in a little while. But I just want to pause again for a second and say, you know, everybody wants to figure out how can I get help right now? Please. And doctors and therapists.  And, you know, I've been there. I did that for 40 years and you got to do whatever is going to work. You got to figure out what can I do to help this person right now or at least over the next few months or or whatever. So I don't think I have any quick fixes, Chris. Yeah. So there are there are ways for, I mean, both therapists and patients to stepping back and asking, so why does the capacity for low motor exists at all? And that's for emotional problems, which is mostly what we treat in psychotherapy and in psychiatry and psychology. I mean, I think the usual approach is, hey, what made this person have problems? Yeah. And my approach is, gosh, let's if this person is having low mode, let's pause and say, in what situations is low mode useful? Is that situation present? And if it is, what can we maybe do to get rid of that situation instead of just jumping in and trying to, you know, get rid of it? You know, yeah. So let's yeah, let's let's discuss that a little bit and kind of like how it takes a while because, for example, with my with my personal experience, you know, before getting sober, finally, I had multiple relapses and I had this idea like, you know, for example, you get you get sober and the clouds are supposed to part angels saying and everything. But, you know, I was I was in my 20s.  And and things weren't fixed immediately. So I would turn back to the substances or whatever. But only when I got sober in 2012, I realized like, Chris, there was a lot of things. There's a lot of there's so many things going on from my childhood to my current circumstances. For example, in 2012, I wasn't even allowed to see my son anymore. You know what I mean? Like there were multiple things and you discuss this in the book, how we have to kind of get the broader picture. But anyways, in so since then, I've been trying to help people. I've worked with people in 12 step meetings. I ended up working at a treatment center where we help where we were dual diagnosis of mental illness as well as addiction. And I see this all the time, right? Like, hey, it's not I mean, one thing it's a I think you really realize that some people it's not the same for everybody. Mm hmm. We mean, you know, there's some people whose grandfather and father and brothers all took one drink and that was the other lives.   And and it's it's really different. We've got to understand people one by one. Why no simple kind of thing can work. But addiction is so fascinating. I just got an invitation to talk with a group of Italians about why addiction exists. Yeah.  I think, Chris, let me know. We believe in a free will.  No, everybody says, I can stop anytime I want. Right.  Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.  And then you stopped for a little bit. Mm hmm. Yeah. And kind of bad for myself. Right. And then it came back, right? Mm hmm. And we think we can control ourselves completely. And we can solve. People do decide to stop drinking and stop drinking. But it's not so simple as just I decide, you know, are these mechanisms and I say, get us to keep doing things that do those dopaminergic systems. And we got to ask, well, why is that?  And it's once we could really distill alcohol. And once we could have less potent substances available 24 seven, that's what it really becomes a problem. But if you can only get drunk once a month, because, hey, the yeast didn't ferment. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, I it's it's interesting because, you know, just going back to the topic of like quick fixes, that's that's kind of what my problem was. I, you know, if I if I had low mood, right, I was like, I want to get rid of this now. I couldn't sit with it. I didn't want to, you know, I didn't want to feel it. Anxiety, I would struggle with that. And I didn't want my racing thoughts and my worries. So I wanted to numb it. And so even the substance use was this kind of quick fix that I was trying to do when I was trying to get better. It was I was searching for more quick fixes. But do you what are your thoughts on the whole behavioralist idea, like be a skinner? Like, do you think we evolve for the, you know, trigger behavior reward? And then in what? Why does the capacity for learning exist at all? Mm hmm. And the answer is because those animals that had a capacity for learning did better than others. But the system is somewhat different to different people. And here is, I think, an unanswered question about substance use and abuse. There are people who can drink and not be bothered by it. And there are people even who can take heroin. Apparently, most people who try heroin can even enjoy it some and then just not keep doing it. Other people, they take one hit and that's it in their life, you know, these stuff. And there's a lot of evidence that the difference is genetic. So does this mean some people have abnormal genes that makes them vulnerable and going back to this idea that these are new problems in the last few hundred years or thousand years? I don't think it means that at all. I think it means that people's brains are a little bit different and probably people foraged for food a little bit differently because that's what those mechanisms are for, you know, that are take us back to the good nut tree again or had different hunting strategy or or different social strategies. And for some people, the mechanism is wired. So once you get that kind of reward, it just kicks in and sticks there. For other people on the system isn't nearly so rigid. And I think it's just bad luck that some people have systems that get get trapped. I mean, alcohol hijacks the system and just takes control of it. I bet if we go to other planets, we find other species. If their motivation systems are run by chemicals, they're going to have big problems with substance abuse, just like we do because good feelings you get when you start using substances in that. I mean, why does why does it feel good? Yeah. And the other part of it is why does feeling bad feel so bad? What is it just hurt?  Yeah. Yeah. And and that's what's what's so interesting about it. And if we if we could, let's talk about, you know, some of those underlying bad feelings and like depression, for example, or low mood, rather, right? I'm just going to pause for a minute. I'm so glad you gave both of those, right?  But with all the ads on TV and everything about depression and drugs and stuff, everybody assumes that depression is an abnormal state. Yeah, I finally decided to just go along with that. And instead I say low mood is kind of like depression when it might be normal. Yeah, as we all know, there are times when feeling blue and low and unenthusiastic about stuff and kind of pessimistic might be appropriate. Yeah, let's let's let's sit on that for a second before we we dive specifically to the page because I've been dying to ask you, do you think do you think that we're we're pathologizing too much in 2021 or in recent years? Like you've been doing this for a while. Has has this become a problem where where it's just like, oh, everybody, you know, like the I see the the depression and the and anxiety rates going up and all these diagnosis, people are like, something's wrong. Something's wrong with people. Something's wrong with our kids. And I'm like, is it or are we just throwing more labels on it? Because even with the DSM five, you know, there's so many people that get into these vague descriptions. So based on your years in this, like, has this become a problem over time? We know there sure are a lot of people who have mental disorders who won't acknowledge it or won't accept it and they could be helped a lot. So we've got to start with that. But then there's so many people who start to interpret their own lives as mental problems and say, for instance, that you're an Olympic superstar and you're going in there and everybody expects you to win gold. And you kind of know that you're not going to be able to do it again. And that is going to arouse perfectly normal, awful, anxious feelings. And you also feel like, hey, if I don't get gold, I'm going to lose, I'm going to drag my whole team down. And that's the bad thing, but everybody expects it.  Does this mean that that person, and you know who I'm talking about, right? Yeah, yeah. Does this mean that person has a mental disorder and that dropping out is taking care of her mental health? Or is this a person who's having feelings and coping with a difficult situation? And I think calling all of these things mental health problems implies that there's something wrong with the person. And I think very often there's nothing wrong with the person. They're having normal, very difficult, painful feelings that are as normal as they could be.  He's 12 years old. He's about to hit the beauty of teenage years. And I get worried because I think about, you know, my my younger experience, but mainly like relationships and breakups, but something that I plan on teaching him that I've tried to help others understand, too, is exactly what you're saying. Like I've worked with so many people where, you know, or even friends where they're with somebody for three, four, five years in a relationship and they break up and they're sad. And I'm like, you're supposed to feel sad. Like you're this is this is normal, right? If I'm about to give a huge presentation in front of thousands of people, something might be wrong if I'm not nervous, if I don't care how I'm perceived. So I don't know, how do we, how do we kind of ship? Because here's my issue ready. I used to think we didn't talk about mental health enough. And now I almost feel like we're talking about it too much. So do you see any solutions to kind of balance it and bring people back towards the middle? You know, I think one of the really valuable things about an evolutionary perspective, Tris, is it encourages us to respect our feelings as a starting point and to examine and see is this feeling actually likely normal and useful for me? Or, and I like to talk about this more with you, is it normal but useless? I think most feeling, most bad feelings we have are normal, but useless. Well, that's been true. That's what I want to hear about. What's a little bit useless? Why do I have that?  I mean, I think the fundamental schema, the fundamental idea people have about mental problems is if you're having bad feelings, there's got to be something wrong, right? And especially if it's something like, you know, unjustified anxiety or low mood, it doesn't seem to be justified. People say, hey, I'm having these bad feelings. And the doctor or clinician says this person's having bad feelings that are interfering with their ability to do everything they want and pleasure in life. So it must be there's something wrong with this person. But if you step back to an evolutionary view about why these feelings exist at all, there are five other reasons. Why normal bad feelings are usually useless. I'll go through them one by one. Okay. Yeah, I'm going to learn. Yeah. I mean, the first thing we have to ask is, I mean, why do these bad feelings exist at all for any of us? And the reason for that is that individuals whose whose whole system goes into a special state in certain kinds of situations, they get a big advantage. I mean, for instance, you suddenly hear behind you on the African savanna.  If your experience is the emotion of, oh, wow, this is so cool. Yeah, there were there were people like that. And they didn't pass on any genes, right? Yeah, yeah, we don't have their ancestors around.  And then not thinking about anything else until you're a mile away. Those people survive. That's a panic attack, basically. And that's a useful thing. But anxiety is it's kind of easy to see high anxiety. It's useful. But let's go now into in what situation is low mood you useful? Have you thought about that? Yeah, it's it's something it's something I'm curious about, even with anxiety. And I want to I want to have some time to a little bit talk about I was diagnosed with a generalized anxiety disorder. And I have some specific experiences that I want to go back to. I'm like, that was completely useless. But low mood when you when you talk about it and and I feel like I'd never explain it right because you use this like very picking analogy and kind of like this optimal like very picking time deal for low mood. And but you explain depression and low mood as kind of the body or the mind's signal like, hey, maybe it's time to give up and move on. And I'm like, wait a second, wait a second, right? Like if I just went I live in Las Vegas, I went down to the strip and you know, people are probably having fun, but there's a lot of people out there. I said, what's the most depressing thing in her life? And they're like, my job, my relationship. And I'm like, well, are you clinging on it too hard? Like, are you clinging on it too long? Are you not giving up when you should, right? And and that's so when you when I read that in your book, I was like, brain exploded. So in my first 20 years of psychiatric practice, I saw thousands of patients and and for everybody who was depressed, I told them, you know, I'm sorry you feel pessimistic, but don't it's your depression talking. Keep trying. Keep trying. There's another way. Keep trying, keep trying, keep trying. And then I got older and I watched my own life and I and I saw people living over decades and I got to know some patients over decades. And I realized that there were a whole lot of people I was seeing who were never ever going to be able to succeed at the thing they were so committed to. Yeah, the simple one is some kid trying to get to medical school for the fourth time and another one is somebody in love desperately with somebody who won't talk with them for 10 years. Well, and there's a lot of parents trying to get their kids to stop drinking and they can't do it.  And they're depressed about it or and I saw lots of patients. What do you do if you have cancer? I mean, obviously, your goal is to get rid of the cancer, but what if you can? I mean, these are really poignant, personal, awful kind of situations.  You've got to understand people one by one.  So just quit. No, you know, the person would just quit themselves. On the other hand, once I figured this out, I could have much deeper conversations with my patients about. Let's try to ask, is there something you're trying to do in life that seems overwhelmingly important and you can't give it up, even though you kind of know you're not going to succeed. And then they talk. Yeah, I have a long conversation. I might. I really hope I'm not thinking of a completely different book. But I believe in the book, you discuss the story of a college student and a relationship, something like that. And then there was a little break and you you saw him later and he was just glorious. Did can you can you kind of I can read that that is from good reasons for bad feelings. I love it. I love it. And it really made an impression on me, actually. This was a time when I was supervised in the work of other psychiatry residents and the like. And and this kid comes in and he says, my life is fine, but I'm depressed. Can you help me? I'm in junior college and I'm looking out because I'm, you know, not doing my work. I don't feel like anything. I feel like a failure. And we say, well, how's the rest of your life? Because I got a great girlfriend. Oh, she's wonderful. I'm never going to get a girl that great. She's so smart and pretty and and gosh, she's fabulous. But she says they got a good college the other way. She's going to leave me. And we say, well, that's good. But good relationship, good relationship. Yeah, I'm going to just have to get rid of this depression. So we gave him medications. We gave him cognitive behavioral therapy. Um, I talked to the resident and month later, he says, well, kid, isn't it really any better? Um, and then I went back and saw him with the resident a few months later and the guys ask him, how are you doing? And he says, well, fine. Yes, I stopped my meds. I don't need them anymore. I said, well, what about that girl? But what about everything? And he says, oh, my girlfriend, I really enjoy my girlfriend. So really, I thought like she was going to go off to that college at East, a place called Bassar. Yeah. He says, oh, that girlfriend. No, she was too uppity for me. I decided to quit her and quit that college stuff. And I'm working with my dad now and I've got another girl. I mean, it's kind of a sexist and classist kind of story. But it's the reality for a lot of people of trying to do things that they kind of know are never going to work, but they don't want to give them up because we all pursue big goals. Yeah, it's it's interesting, too, because I've been reading a lot and talking with different authors about this kind of a we've kind of moved into this idea of like individualism and just like you work hard, you know, that kind of like hustle culture and entrepreneurial mindset. Like if you work hard, you can make anything happen. And that's kind of, you know, that's kind of like how I live my life. Like I can do anything I put my mind to. But then like now that I have this new kind of just even way to look at things, I can sit back and assess and say, OK, because because like you keep saying, like it's situational, like I don't always give up and I don't want to teach my son like, oh, it's a little hard to give up. You know what I mean? But there's a certain time where it feels like we have to pause and look look at the situation at a wider angle and say, is this coming from my my my fear of letting go? Is that what you would say? Like, is there a time where we should like assess it? So I've even wondered, Gresson, this is something that really needs study. It was sort of that it's hard to get support from the government to study about whether part of the reason people are so it. Why are depressed people so pessimistic? I mean, you would think if things were really going badly, people would think, hey, this isn't working. I'm a good person. I can get out of here and do better elsewhere. You know, and a lot of people do that and it doesn't work very well because your marriage isn't going well this week and you leave it.  So I better stick around here. That's probably a better thing. You know, being somewhat pessimistic, unrealistically pessimistic in that circumstance keeps you in a relationship that probably is going to be valuable in the long run so long as you don't bag it too quickly. But this problem with the same thing is it does keep you in a relationship or a job or some giant pursuit you're after.  And, you know, it's only one out of a hundred people or one out of a thousand who even gets to the Olympic tryouts and then some of them get to the Olympic tryouts and some of them get to the Olympics. There's only one person who gets gold. We should be talking more with the people who didn't even get browns. Yeah. And and and all the decisions they make about do you want to try again next time? Hmm. And and it's it's just so hard. And and I think mass society and mass media, in spite you were saying this a minute ago, inspires everybody to go for the big time. And the people who really win big are the people who do that. But I think a lot of them also are prone to mood problems. As you know, the people who are just committed to succeeding at all costs, I think are also the people who are especially vulnerable to persisting in the unreachable goals of college's depression. Yeah, I that's pure speculation on my part. I wish the studies could be done. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Like I 1000 percent agree because I am just a curious guy. And I read all sorts of books and like with what you're talking about. Like I dove into a bunch of books about success versus luck.  And there's kind of a almost a selection bias, right? Where we're focusing on the people who get to that platform. But like you mentioned, there's thousands who didn't.  Sometimes we have to say, I'm going to be the one who gets that goal because that's that's advantageous to keep moving us forward. You know what I mean?  Um, it's because there have been big payoffs. But I want to go back for a minute to these reasons why bad feelings are usually. Oh, yes, yes, useless. I mean, that's kind of a cool and useful thing for people to take a back. Well, in the first thing is the smoke detector principle. Oh, yes.  And it's something called signal detection theory, if you want to get into the fancy math. But the basics are, hey, the cost of a false alarm is small and the cost of not having the alarm when you need one could be death. And this is why my patients with panic disorder, even though they've been in the grocery store five times and never had a lion chase them, even so, they still keep having panic attacks because what if it was a one percent chance there was a lion or some other bad threat back there? And what really happens with those folks with panic disorder is the panic attacks themselves become the source of danger, especially if some well-meaning doctor said, oh, I don't think it's your heart. Yeah, thank you very much, doctor. So I think for a lot of emotional problems, the smoke detector principle explains why we those protective mechanisms, anxiety and low mood, they go off just like a smoke detector. Because the normal system has to have a lot of false alarms to function optimally. Yeah, I think that's a cool idea. You know, it's very useful. Yeah, yeah. The way you you explained that. I'm like, yeah, I guess I'd rather have it accidentally going off than me not freaking out because Randy, trust me, I look around. My girlfriend and I, we often talk about this. I feel like there's so many people who don't have that. The smoke detector is malfunctioning, right? They're they're just like, you know what, there's a global pandemic, but I don't need a mask. I don't need a bad thing. Like they don't have enough worries. I live in Las Vegas. If you go down to the strip, there's no regard for like street lights and signs and I'm just like, we need to fix your smoke detector. So so now I kind of look at it and I get grateful. I'm like, OK, it goes off a little. It's a little too sensitive sometimes, but I'd rather have that than doing these crazy, reckless things. You know, go ahead and opportunity to work with the world's real expert on anxiety, Isaac March, for several years. And then our big paper called fear and fitness. We recognize a new anxiety disorder that nobody was identifying or treating. You realize that we and other anxiety disorders doctors have always been treating people who had too much anxiety. But there are a whole lot of people who just don't have enough anxiety.  They're not wearing masks. They're driving too fast. They think being drunk and driving isn't going to all be careful, you know. And yes, but I'm not going to set up a clinic for hypophobia. Right. Yeah. Not a good business proposition. I couldn't imagine those people ever wanting to get help because the optimism is just off the charts. Right. Like I've never nothing's ever going to happen to me. I'm invincible. I could drive 100 miles an hour. I could do whatever I want. So at what point would that person even say, you know what? Maybe I need help for this. But but it's kind of like people who can't sense pain, right? Like we have to be able to feel pain.  Right. I mean, I always thought that pain was a problem, right? Because what we do in medicine, if somebody comes in with pain, we try to figure out what's causing it, except on psychiatry. Try to figure what's causing it and try to relieve it, right? But but there are these people who are born without the ability to experience pain and their bodies fall apart. And most of them are dead by middle age. Capacity for pain is useful, but the ability to ignore it. And it's essential. Well, the experience of pain means something was wrong. But the pain isn't the problem. The pain is part of the solution. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So so we talked about low mood and the smoke detector. And I think one more. You said there was five. I'm going to go over four other reasons real quickly. OK, why bad feelings can be normal but used and by normal.  So the next one is that the whole system wasn't shaped to benefit us. Shaped to benefit our genes.   It's good for our genes. Yeah, yeah. Alma, what proportion of problems in life are caused by sex and wanting it, not being able to get it? Though, whoa, and a different version of that, though, is caring about what happens with our kids. I mean, people so often are just in tizzy because they're desperate to help their kids, whether it's to get into the right school or to stop drinking or to get away from the bad partner or something. You know, those are normal, useful, good, bad feelings, right? On the other hand, those are good for our genes, not for us as our individuals. Another is very interesting. It's called sensitization. I mean, many of these mechanisms are designed by natural selection. To get more sensitive if they go off repeatedly. That doesn't make any sense, does it? Right? It's just, but think about pain, for instance, if you constantly are smashing your finger, that means that you're not having enough pain to be a sensible person. So let me pause you right there real quick because something might have just clicked for me. So for example, trauma. Is this something that we're kind of talking about? Because I've seen some research and studies, like, for example, like the ACEs test, like adverse childhood experiences. Like, like the adverse childhood experiences, right? Or there's like complex PTSD, and it's people with repeated trauma and things can start to be really triggering. So like, for example, I grew up, my mom got sober when I was 20. So my entire childhood was living in a very crazy, chaotic household, right? Then in my 20s after I got sober and stopped self-medicating with drugs and alcohol, I started having realizing I had symptoms of anxiety. So is that kind of something that, like, I was in an environment where being on the alert constantly was advantageous for me? Is that what I'm getting from you? You know, kids who grew up with alcoholic parents are never quite certain what's going to happen next, at least a lot of them.  Is my mom going to be coming out and screaming at me? Is she going to leave me alone? I mean, it's just that kind of uncertainty. These people, you just, like you say, always on alert. You get the experience of the world being unpredictable. Yeah. So is that kind of like the thumb smashing? Like, yeah, that the whole system becomes more sensitive.  If you keep smashing your thumb, it turns out that there's a built in mechanisms for making the pain system more sensitive.  Just as big as chronic depression. And I think a lot for the same reason.  And it's it's it's a useful system, but it is prone to run away in an in a vicious cycle. And I think depression, too, is prone to run away in a vicious cycle and anxiety where, especially for anxiety, I mean, the more anxiety you get, the more you start avoiding things. And the more you think that the world is. Yeah. And every time you run out of the grocery store because you're having a panic deck.  And it's so hard to help patients understand that you have to do things that seem really abnormal, like staying in a place where you're having a panic attack to get over it. But an evolutionary perspective helps them enormously. And once instead of telling people you have panic disorder, it's a problem in your brain. Do this exercise, but that's that doesn't help them. That helps some. But yeah, you tell them that panic attack you're having would be very useful to save your life if you are in life threatening danger. And your system is going off with false alarms. And all of a sudden they can make sense of all of their symptoms that fast breathing is so you can run fast and the sweating is so you're slippery and and your heart pounding is so you can run fast. Well, once they make sense of those symptoms, they're not as frightened of them anymore. And once you explain that staying in this situation when you're having that anxiety naturally down regulates the anxiety. It just helps them do the exercises that they need to do to get over it. Yeah, I yeah, something I think about all the time. One of the reasons I, you know, like to write about it and help others is my life is pretty great today, right? Like my anxiety is very minimum. And a lot of it's just because I learned I learned, you know, the evolutionary reasons for it and different techniques to kind of manage it. And now it's just I can I can go through it, right? And I've had conversations with people, you know, I'm nine years sober and it's like, oh, do you think you're ever going to drink again or use a substance again? And I'm like, I don't really have a reason to anymore because I've learned to cope with these things and realize like, hey, this is a low mood, probably for a good reason. Or, you know, there's all these things that I've kind of, I don't know, maybe conditioned myself to. So I think you're putting a finger on the most central important thing that evolutionary psychiatry offers, along with lots of other things. But the most central one is, you know, these bad feelings exist for good reasons. And while we should work to get rid of them, we should work to get rid of them in the right way by looking to see if there's something we can do to get out of the bad situation that's causing them or and the best thing to do, Chris, very often.  And I kept if you could only help them to see, excuse me, in two years, you're going to look back with this and make jokes about it. But for right now, it seems like the end of your life. Can we please help you? And of course, despite my best wishes that hardly ever worked because, you know, people are not rational in those. Yeah. Right. One of the most beneficial things I learned about it, I'm curious your thoughts, because this is kind of a theory of adaptation is, you know, hedonic adaptation, right? Like basically the idea, and if I explain this one, please correct me, but we are we evolved for to kind of reach back to this kind of baseline. So if we get too happy, if I get a million dollars tomorrow in a few months, I'm going to kind of level back out. If I get extremely sad, it's not great for me to stay down there. So eventually I'm going to come back up and we're kind of designed to reach this like homeostasis. And that's about interest. That is so profound. And I think it has a lot to do with what's wrong in people who have bipolar disorder and kind of, I mean, we've been talking about how bad feelings can be useful. But there sure are a lot of people whose brains just are not working right.  And some bad feelings are just abnormal. Yeah, because the brain is not working right. But you have to ask in control theory, they go, what's gone wrong with the people who slip into excessively high moods and excessively low moods? And I think what you just said is the answer about why most of us are not bipolar. Most of us have some great success. And we say, well, fabulous, you did it. Yeah.  Did you experience it? Oh, yeah. I talk to people all the time, like people who are just like, this job doesn't pay me enough and they're so mad and they go into work. And then they get that raise and they're just ecstatic. I'm like, how long does it take for you to start wanting even more? Right. And but I think it's more than that. I think for most people after a great success, they feel bad and pessimistic and feel bad about themselves. And and I think that's the perfect. That's the system stopping itself from running away. Oh, OK. Because a lot of what what positive mood is for is to give you more energy to try harder and do more while times are good, right?  But if that runs away, then you slip into a bipolar manic episode and you're doing well and crazy stuff and spending your money and alienating your friends and all the rest. Yeah. For most of us, we have a built-in safety valve for that. You have a governor that turns off the high mood just when it's starting to feel really great. Yeah. And we wonder, how come I'm feeling bad now? Well, I think that is a natural governor. And most of us have one on the way down as well. And some happens and a few days later we think, gosh, I thought that was end of everything. And actually, life is continuing. And I feel okay. But but people with bipolar disorder, those natural control systems are not there. Yeah. The high mood leads to more high mood and more optimism and more energy until the whole system collapses with 48 hours without sleep. And then they flip into a depressed state and stay there. Yeah. And Randy, see, just right there, you're reminding me why I read your book twice. And I love it so much because it makes sense like going back to when we were talking about people who don't have enough anxiety, right? It would not be beneficial for me to barely escape death and then just keep doing it because of that high I got. Or if I want a million dollars and then I spent it and, you know, I stayed up there, I'm going to start feeling too confident, too invincible. And so we need to be able to come back down. So so that's that's interesting. That's really interesting. I hadn't even thought about that one. So is it was there one more thing too that you were that was on your list? Yeah, all the assistance were shaped based on the kinds of experiences we used to have and how to get our lifestyles, right? And we're not there anymore. We're so far away from that.  So yeah, you're going to be desirable because and you're going to not have that much choice with other people.  I mean, everybody puts their best stuff on Facebook and makes their lives seem super duper and they're very attractive and stuff. And so we all compare ourselves to that. And guess what? Nobody measures up. So it's this illusory world where people naturally try to put forward their best selves and their most attractive selves and the paradox is that it makes most of us feel bad about ourselves. Yeah. So let me let me ask you that because that's something I'm always just thinking about is, you know, we've been evolving for for just so many years, right? And now and then like the technology boom, you know, just how it's just like kind of with what you're saying within a group of 30 people, there's a limited amount of competition, right? But now with dating apps are now that if I'm a if I'm mad, let's say I'm out at company and we have locations all over the country, I'm no longer in competition with the people in my building. I'm in competition with people over there. And then there's the the hierarchy. So do you think like we just we haven't been able to catch up? Do you think like what hopefully the world doesn't explode, but in a thousand years we will catch up? I don't know. Like, you know, things are competitive enough when I was a kid, but I feel bad for kids now.  I went for a semester where they just to find back, right?  Yeah, well, but the process of trying to get in now is just brutal.  Of course, you could try to break into the country music scene or you were she at rock and roll.  And you're probably not going to make it, but you got to try. Yeah, if you don't try now, now's the time. Yeah, I think what's, you know, what's been beneficial for me and something I try to teach my son is, you know, it's about more of the way, especially when it comes to competitive aspects, like it's more about the effort than the results. You know what I mean? Because like I recently did a couple of episodes with about like college and college admissions and things like that. Like if you if you like the best application or like college essay, if the person reading it has a bad day, they might totally see it wrong or not like it or you don't know the other underlying circumstances. So it's helped me just kind of deal with life as it goes. Realizing my limited amount of control. Right. And our minds were shaped on the assumption that judgments people made about us had a lot to do with us. But I talked with my academic colleagues often and the young young colleagues, when they're submitting their papers, most papers get turned down, right? And most grants get turned down. You know how how likely you are to get a grant that you submit to the federal government to work on mental health problems? No, I heard it. I heard it slow, but tell me the numbers. It's something like 10%. Wow. How do you are getting submitted like quantity wise? That means not out of 10 people stayed up late for months working on a grant. And the answer is no. Yeah. What a tease. Yeah. And we're just talking about how hard life is, but we all have to cope with it. And technology is here. And that kind of competition is here. And I think your attitude of doing it for doing it, you know, in my goal has been to bring evolutionary biology to medicine and to psychiatry because these are fundamental missing scientific foundations that can help both all of medicine and especially psychiatry and do their jobs better. And I've been frankly only modestly successful in that because these structures of those fields, you know, are not just based on, you know, what's interesting and true, that they're based on people trying to help patients right now and pharmaceutical companies wanting to make money and the like. And you can't blame them. That's just the way the world is. Yeah. So it might take a little. So and I think your attitude is the one I try to adopt. You know, I just do what I do and I say what seems sensible and a lot of people seem to appreciate it and I appreciate it when they appreciate it. In the meanwhile, I'll write more papers and write more books and try to make them interesting for people. Yeah. Yeah, no, I love it. Yeah, we got to at least try to have that attitude and you talk about this. And this is something I'm curious about. Like my mom, she's a psychologist clinical director at a rehab. It's something I was considering pursuing, but I've worked with a lot of therapists. I talked to a lot of therapists and psychologists. My girlfriend, actually, she's currently in a master's program for social work, right? And so just the field as a whole, like in the book, you talk about, I believe it's called the fundamental attribution error. Yes, right. So my memory is pretty good. And and so and basically, I'll have you explain it in just a second. But like, do you think this is something that should be trained like, like do colleges need to start making this part of the curriculum like an evolutionary aspect? Or is it just such a perfect thing you bring up, Chris? The fundamental, a Kurt Lewin was the father of social psychology, a German fellow who moved to the United States. And he pointed out that all feelings and behavior were products of the person in the situation. And he further pointed out that most people assume that a person's behavior is explained by that person. But they don't pay much attention to the situation. And social psychologists have done all kinds of sly and beautiful experiments to demonstrate that situations hugely affect what people actually do. One of my favorites is it took a bunch of seminary students and they had them in a seminar about what the Good Samaritan. Yeah, the Good Samaritan study. Yeah, yeah, go ahead. And so they had them do that. And then they had them walk across campus to another meeting.  If you're late, it's going to be real trouble. And the others were not told anything about that. And guess what? The ones who weren't rushing at all stopped and helped this poor guy who was lying on the ground to hurting him. Sorry, it hurt because he fell down. But the other seminary students who had just had a seminar about the Good Samaritan walked right past quickly averting their gaze because they were going to get in trouble if they weren't on time for the next seminar. I've grossly simplified a whole bunch of stuff there. But but we all are profoundly influenced by the situation we're in. Those are short term situations. But I think larger term situations like being in a job where the bosses are asking you, but you don't have another job and you hope that he's going to retire soon or she's going to retire soon. And we are in these longer term life situations. And this is what's missing from psychiatric research. Chris, we measure life events because they're tangible and you can say did get a divorce didn't get a divorce. It didn't get pregnant, didn't get pregnant. But the life situation of trying to get pregnant and thinking you really want to get pregnant and it's really difficult and you're already 40 years old. A marvelous bunch of studies related to this are done by a woman out in California named Jutta Heckhausen. Previously she did her studies in Germany and she talked about women who wanted to get pregnant and they were approaching menopause. Guess what? They all were very upset and very pessimistic and trying. But you know, is it going to work? It's probably not going to work. And then she followed them after menopause and found that for the vast majority of them, once they gave up on that goal, yeah, those bad feelings went away. And then they started telling themselves of why the heck did I ever want to have kids anyhow? They're a lot of trouble.  This is, I mean, everybody wants quick solutions now on the newest thing.  I mean, the problem of how to manage desire is right at the base of all of these bad feelings. And the main solutions have been there all the time. One is to go for it, you know, go try to get as much pleasure educated right now because life is short. Those are the hedonists, right? Yeah. And that leads to trouble and suffering of its own sort. But a lot of good times in the meanwhile. And then the Stoics are the opposite of that. They say, um, do your responsibility. Don't pursue pleasure.  And that's another strategy of deny your or inhibit your impulses and desires. And that is the Epicureans. And those are folks who thoughtfully pursue desires in order to get the best without too much of the suffering that comes from going overboard. And finally, I think there's a fourth one which is more congruent with an evolutionary view. And that's the Buddhist view is to realize that all these things are basically, you know, illusions. And the natural selection has shaped us to want desperately all these things. And we can't stop those desires. And we can't just tell ourselves it's all silly. But it is kind of, you know, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, just kind of my path and journey to my own, you know, just personal development because I got really into mindfulness and meditation. And then I'm like, I want to learn more about Buddhist philosophy. And I read Robert Wright's Why Buddhist, why Buddhism is true. Isn't that a wonderful book? Robert Wright and that book is a masterpiece. Yeah. And and yet like it helps me and it's these things. And I recently had a guess because there's kind of like this aspect of people are trying to make a lot of money off of like Buddhist philosophy. But but it's helped me so much when I'm talking like I do. I have talks with authors about they write books about political polarization and you know, just all these things. And I'm like, man, I'm so glad that on my journey, I started with mindfulness because it's helped me pause. It's helped me kind of look back and realize like, Hey, maybe I'm perceiving this wrong. I've got another good book for you along these lines. Oh, let it on.  But how's this for a book title? How to want what you have. Oh, I'm writing it down. Isn't that lovely? It's about evolution and Buddhism and the same things we're talking about here. I love it. And yeah, it's so helpful. And I don't know, I'm obsessed with the idea of just learning why we evolved in these ways, you know, for this, because it's helped me. I think it's helped me cut cut myself and my emotions some slack. And that's why I try to teach people about it.  And it's like, okay, who should we try to get to change? Because for example, we're living in this fast paced society. And on your phone, you can download 50 meditation apps. So that quick fix idea, it's everywhere, right? People are coming, they're like, Hey, sniff this essential oil, it'll get rid of your anxiety like that, you know, and we all want that because we have stuff to do. You know, I got a job, I got kids, I'm yeah, fix me now. So I can go do that. And I'm like, okay, so do we try to change the people who are putting this message out? Or do we try to reach the masses and say, Hey, it's okay if these things take time, you know, when and now we come back to the fundamental attribution error that you mentioned, because, you know, the assumption with all of these things is there's something wrong with the person that's making this, they should be meditating, they should be doing this, they should be doing that. I'm stepping back and looking in more depth at the situation, and helping people to choose thoughtfully their situations, I think is just as important. And and when they had bad feelings pausing and not just saying, what's wrong with me? I'm having this bad feeling. How can I think different?  And if it's normal, is it useful might not be useful even though it's normal. But it just allows you to step back. Yeah, I think I think that if I if I had a magic wand right now, anybody listening to this, I would just, you know, I would just put a sign in their house or something like that. Is this useful? Right? Is there a reason for this? Or is this is this a normal response? Right? Like, if if so, but when the hooker here is a turkey is a lot of normal responses are not good for us. They're either good for our genes or they're disposed or their sensitization. And it doesn't mean there's something wrong with your brain, just because you're having useless bad feelings. Sometimes it's up wrong with your brain. But I think in pharmacologically interventions, this is another way that evolutionary approaches is very useful. People say to me often, oh, Dr. Nessie, you think that a bad emotions are useful. Therefore, you must think that using drugs is never smart to treat them. Absolutely not. I mean, I'm a doctor, I treat pain. And when you can relieve pain safely, do it for goodness sakes. Medicine is for and likewise, if you can relieve mental pain safely, either with medications or with other kinds of psychotherapy, do it. But don't ignore possible causes of pain. I actually wrote a tweet just yesterday about an article in this week's New England Journal of Medicine. The article is all about all depression in adolescence and what doctors should do about it. It's a very influential article because it'll guide general physicians and what they do. And it gives a very nice summary of how to diagnose depression and different scales you can use. And it gives you know, some evidence that drugs can be useful and cognitive behavioral therapy can be useful. And it talks about assessing the patient and saying and checking to see if these adolescents are using drugs, which is a huge problem, causing depression. But you know what, Tris? It said nothing at all about talking with that teenager about what their life is like. Nothing. Nothing about whether their parents are alcoholics, nothing about whether they're failing in school, nothing about whether their girlfriend left them for another guy or boyfriend left them for another cow. Nothing about whether they are their parents are desperate for them to get into a fancy college and actually they'd rather not. We should be talking with people one by one about what they're trying to do in life and how it's going. And this business of just assuming that the symptoms are the disease. Sometimes they are. But we shouldn't just assume that bad feelings are a disease. A lot of times they're normal, even if they're not useful. Yeah, it's it's interesting because I feel that's what we want. At least that's my experience. I used to eight doctors and anybody else because it felt like they were just trying to figure it out and move on to the next one, right? They would come in, talk to me and trust me like because when I got sober, I had congestive heart failure at the right age of 27. So I've seen a lot of specialists and I saw this a lot just, you know, and they'll throw out them like you're not even talking to me, right? But I've had this primary care doctor for the last few years. And I love this woman. If I if I moved across town, oh, I actually did move across town. I still go see her because she takes the time. She will sit there, talk to me, ask me questions, answer any and she goes you as an individual. And it's just it's amazing. And I'm like, if we had more people like that because it just feels like, you know, and there's there's a lot of things going on in different systems, like, you know, where people are understaffed and they got to move to the next person. And so I empathize with that. All right, ready. So on these kind of topics about, you know, you're not against medication. And there's there's kind of debates that go on. And I don't want to dive like all the way into all the research. But there's the idea of like chemical imbalances, right?  But I'll use myself as a primary example. I was on Lexapro for four or five years. Then I switched to Prozac, which I've been on and because of, you know, learning more and coping better and learning all these other skills. There's been a few times, and I always emphasize this, with a doctor supervision, I have weaned off of that. But it seems like it comes back, right, the depression or anxiety or whatever it is. And I look at my situations and I'm like my situations are fine. So am I not just am I just not getting enough serotonin or do I need these medications? So that's I'm curious like now now when when is medical intervention necessary? So the first principle is that we humans are simplistic thinkers, all of us. And both doctors and patients want a simple way of understanding these disorders. And it's so attractive to think of depression in particular as being a serotonin deficiency or something like that. I mean, there's no evidence for that whatsoever. Yeah, I mean, the way these drugs work is the same way that aspirin works for pain. In pain is a normal, useful response. And you can use medications that interrupt various parts of the mechanism to relieve pain. And that's a wonderful thing. So long as the pain isn't really necessary. And usually it isn't really necessary, you know, even when you break your leg, once you've got it in a cast, relieve the pain, you don't need that much pain to keep the person for moving around. So pain is usually normal, but useless, or at least excessive, just like it. So I think it's important to think about how these medications work. The simplistic idea of everything is caused by the brain, therefore it must be caused by brain abnormality. I mean, give me a break. That's just not right. Once you start recognizing that these emotions are there for good reasons, and the mechanisms are there for good reasons, you realize that the medications can disrupt the normal mechanisms. And that's a good thing. So long as you're looking carefully for what might actually be arousing the problem in the first place. But then we have to be more careful about the practicalities of it, Chris. What about the long term effects? Yeah. I mean, this article in the New England Journal this week highlighted the idea that, you know, 63% of kids got benefit compared with 37% was their approximations of those on the placebo kind of treatment. But they were cherry picking, you know. Yeah, no, yeah. Other studies that make it much less good. And they didn't mention in that study that they quoted at 32 weeks out, the cognitive behavioral therapy kids were doing exactly as well as the ones who had been on medications.  On the other hand, an individual decision that a patient and doctor make together about is this medication worthwhile for this person at this time given side effects and the like, this needs to be done individually. Yeah. Yeah.  I kind of take it as I go and I communicate with my doctor. I'm like, Hey, for example, I've been feeling great. I'm gonna, what do you think about me trying to wean down right and then I'll do follow ups. One thing I do to is I let my girlfriend know I'm like, Hey, this is what I'm doing with my medication. So I started acting weird. Let me know because I might not realize it and I communicate that in that it's, you know, it's something I've learned to cut myself some slack for because I, you know, even working with people, I think there's a lot of just like, I wish I didn't have to take these or I didn't need to need to do these and it's like, you know, whatever, like if you had diabetes and you had to take insulin, like it would, you know, so, but, but I because of all the things that you mentioned, these side effects that come along with it, like in a perfect world, I'd be fine and just never need to. So I'd go in months and stuff and just been fine. And I don't know. You know, I found half of my job in psychiatry was trying to help people accept that they needed medications and the other half was trying to help people stop medications that they were taking that they probably didn't need. And I got good experience with that. And I think what you are describing of telling people that you're going off meds, principle one, do it very, very slowly.  Well, guess what? There's going to be bad weeks or even months while you're tapering your meds. So don't just assume that those bad feelings are caused by withdrawal effects. Sometimes they are withdrawal effects. Sometimes there are the problem coming back again. And sometimes it's just what happens, you know? Yeah, it really takes a lot of patience and doctors and patients working together over the long term to to see what's best for an individual, the proportion of people who are on antidepressants now in this country. I keep looking up the number. It blows my mind that it's more than 25 percent of middle to upper age women. Maybe you have more data on that than I know. Yeah, it's it's it's something that I'm really curious, but I actually got an early copy of a book where it's kind of addressing this. Why are so many people, you know, depressed or struggling or suffering or whatever it is? And we touched on this earlier in the conversation. It's like because I see these statistics of, oh, more people are on antidepressants. I'm like, but that doesn't necessarily mean that more people had this chemical imbalance type depression, you know, it could and even the idea that depression is a new epidemic with covid and other kind of stuff. Maybe. But everybody always thinks that now things are worse than they used to be, you know, in ancient Rome, read Libby and somebody's ancient Roman authors, they talk about the problem now is modern times. Chariots are just too fast. Life is just too fast, you know. Probably it was. Yeah. So I think we should pause and not just assume that things are worse now. On the other hand, I think no, like you were saying there's new technology and new media that set expectations that are not achievable for most of us. And we may be creating a mental space for the whole world that is toxic for our evolved minds. So I think we need an open mind about that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And just keep, you know, learning and talking and researching and and all this kind of stuff. And I appreciate it so much, Randy, this made this made my week being able to sit here and talk with yourself. I tried talking with Chris. It's great to have somebody who's been there, done that. And he was trying so hard to help other people to understand how they can cope. Yeah, basics are for all of this. Absolutely. So so let me let me know. I found you. I can't on Twitter. But is there anywhere else people could find you and like the research of you? Yeah, I mean, the book is Good Reasons.info and it's an easy reading fun book with lots of cases. Although I put a lot of kind of basic new science in there as well for psychiatrists and and clinicians. I really enjoyed writing it and gotten great reviews and stuff. So Good Reasons.info. My website is nasi.us and and there's a couple you know, scores of papers there for people who want the more academic versions of these kinds of things. And I actually am very deep into the evolutionary medicine movement. Really, I got this field of evolutionary medicine started because I was so frustrated with psychiatry. And so anybody who's interested in evolutionary medicine more generally can just go to evolutionarymedicine.org or just look up evolutionary medicine. It'll take you to our scientific society. Awesome. Last quick question. You any books planned for the future? Or we're taking a break.  A book for psychiatrists and clinicians just called evolutionary psychiatry. OK, and not provide quite so many interesting things that I did in this last book and just put it in people's face that we're missing a whole foundation for understanding behavior. It all the rest of evolutionary study of studies and behavior based on evolution. Yeah. Let's psychiatrists and clinical psychologists never have an opportunity to learn that, at least very few of them do. And I'm hoping that once once people do have a chance to learn that, it'll make the world better, at least a little. Absolutely. Yeah. I would love that to get more an academic circle. So again, Randy, thank you so much. It's a good conversation, Chris. Talk to you another time, perhaps. You too.


josh would if i pull the super auto instead of doing the tattoo will you do uh vanilla eye style will you shave blades on the fade uh kevin parada aqua refractor insert 125 josh young aria alamonte neon green 399 reds b a two packs to go was a hobby box knife yeah i'm looking forward to ripping some hobby raffaella brandy to hasus yusha lunar crater refractor and williams all right last pack well let's finish strong here the philly that's a good philly that's a good card wow one of 150 first moment blue refractor auto justin crawford um as i was saying that i see there's a big smudge on the auto there i don't know if that's something that can be replaced we will send you an empty box and wrapper so if you want to initiate a replacement request very nice card first moment blue refractor auto justin crawford shave a line your eyebrow are people doing that again justin crawford on the back let's see if that last spot's gone i looked in like 20 minutes nope still have the red socks left in the next break want to go there's a link all right base autos we had cubs jackson ferris orials rookie kyle stowers oh sorry we're good uh pod rays nick boat reds aria alamonte cubs moises fire staros blue jays hayden younger refractor autos 499 um orials adam crampon blue jays hayden younger marlins troi johnston guardians george bergos or jorge bergos um speckle autos 299 angels randy dehaysus orials braylon tovera purple refractor autos 250 that's cubs moises fire staros and then we had blue jays blue lunar crater refractor auto to 150 munwell bell tray tigers atomic refractor auto to 100 abel bastidas yankies greengrass refractor auto to 99 won karella that is such a wacky i like a wacky concept who it works it's really awesome yeah uh nationals insert auto to 99 robber hasaw angels yellow refractor auto 75 yadiel sanchez um royals gold shimmer auto to 50 austin charles billy's gold refractor auto to 50 a marion void and then before we get to get into the uh mags here a few parallels we had marlins lava refractor to 399 jacob berry debacks lava refractor auto to 399 drew jones reds purple paper to 250 cam collier and red socks uh aqua lunar refractor 125 roman anthony our mags we had dodgers auto osway de pala reds auto cam collier marlins refractor auto jacob berry and fillies blue refractor auto to 150 justin crawford that does it for the break thank you everybody uh case 32 we'll close this out next all right gonna take just a few minutes here get up stretch out grab a coffee um give this last spot some time to fill up one spot left for the day all right i'll be back in just a couple minutes here's a link one more time somebody wants to close out that last break of the day let me get it yeah you better then all right be right back it's rookie auto blue to 25 o'neill cruise nice hit pittsburgh that is that is dual autograph jumbo lumber bat relics andre dawson and vlad guerrero senior that is expose goes to the nationals in l east shawnti one of one is awesome that's the first one of these i've seen look at that logo man one of one dj lamehu there you go somal one of one logo man patch bobby witt junior that is rookie gold foil there you go royals and ooh this is nice to 71 rookie black paper seah sazuki nice card chicago cubs lemons and there he is angels auto 10 of 125 mitre out nice hit congrats angels this is cardinals one of one event worn patch ryan helsley that is all star stitches one of one patch grats cardinals will magnus one for you that is going to be an original sketch book wow jackie robinson wow dodgers brian pelman nice that is shohei otani rookie variation ends in 93 just for comparison in 79 so there you go short print shohei otani rookie variation yankees one of one bat knob derrick jeeter there you go j kim awesome hit this is just what i do this is what i do royals rookie auto red to 50 bobby witt jr nice hit kc congrats this is wow look at this one of one catcher patches buster posi yadiyar molina jt real muto and salvador perez giants cardinals fillies and royals just double check i don't think anybody has enough teams to have majority brandon s has the giants uh michael l cardinals furhan a fillies and andrew s royals that is awesome patch auto eight of ten derrick jeeter and silver framed auto to 15 angels shohei otani congrats angels that is jake c nine of 15 no reds or supers today um yeah let's change that here in this last break we are sold out for the day thank you everybody much appreciated grab up your spots for tonight's breaks and i will be back tomorrow with more late in baseball breaks starting at 10 a.m eastern zack s close us out for the day appreciate that zack um i don't know i know that i have some mixers uh some four box bowman mixers two boxes each of jumbo and hobby i don't know that we have any full case hot or full hobby case is scheduled this one upside down like that let's get the last case of the day going finish with our best case of the day my coffee cup has a hole in it now that's all right hey everybody matt here for late in sports cards ripping 2023 bowman baseball jumbo full case number 32 pick your team we have alvin s yankees m o d fillies anton h guardians chris f giants christopher j astros uh david h rockies david f blue j's edward p nationals eric w reds eric m podre's ebb and r white socks a's gabriel c dongers mariners rays uh hung c metz james j rangers jed b tigers jeffrey h orials cubs marlins angels brewers twins joshua b pirates lauren e uh d backs mallory m braves ryan s cardinals wyming h royals and zack s red socks all right here we go oh it's 9 30 your time i used to be a sucker too when i was younger i'll recap but the recap's just gonna be all the Yankees from the bridge yeah there you go there you go okay three Yankees that's it that's it that's all all right here we go start hot and stay hot here yeah that'll work mariners blue lunar crater refractor auto to 150 lazaro montez are you go seattle great way to start off the break mag that one for you there's blonde grissom that was gabriel c with the uh mariners drew jones post some Montgomery and brady house drew jones atomic refractor and victor to 150 d backs there you go nice one arizona drew jones third drew of the first one kenderson and or a pega davis and call your ryan cliford speckle all gorman rookie spotlight Elijah green susan lunar glow matt mervis or hey ruiz lava d backs speckle auto it's 299 dominant conzone siano arigas gabin cross riley green rookie spotlight olas arigas bargus sky blue rikardo perez 499 proffered rue jones brooksley and barnett giants auto bond brown coming narrow for the first box i don't know that we pulled any of his autos today but we pulled a decent parallel i think it was maybe an aquilunar crater refractor or something i don't think some sort heli de la cruz atomic purple paper jason dominguez yanks 250 epala montez and guanzalas sort of strawman bias spencer jones tigers auto a bell bastitas Detroit oh did you really all your daily cruises did you get anything sadly lies your green nice that is aqua lunar crater refractor to 125 lazaro montez mariners nice first box here sorry this is the second box ignore what i said i don't know anything guardians refractor auto 499 on helge now you're now in chesnarias are the alamonte um i don't think he's like a big name prospect but i don't know reds a lot of really good prospects so maybe he's just overshadowed drew jones spotlight jet williams guardians that's two cars there we go purple refractor auto 250 or hey bergos go cleveland tristan casas ace and win so then let's go here at coal gold paper to 50 yanks yeah pretty much here at mitchell samuel muñoz i remember ripping uh and bowman and pulling a shane beaver gold auto i know it's not like giant car but i was like they gotta get a fitcher you know probably just gave it away or something lara polton couser refractor extensurio spotlight rafiella ponte that was uh lunar glow oh has it really wow well i don't think spargus purple pattern paper 199 eric brown robbery is oh no kidding that's interesting couser justina crawford imagine mike piazza being drafted and was it the 61st round or something isn't that nuts it was basically a um a favor yeah ace auto column halouse it's like a nepotism pick almost yeah things would 60 second round what year was he drafted like 88 89 orman and lawler muñoz and berry you imagine the person that picked him probably looked like a genius too astros speckle auto 299 she would come go houston yeah lasorda was friends of piazza's dad i remember right matt mervis i think they just kind of grabbed him just as a a favor that goes on to become a hall of famer cabrera polton couser lava to 399 and then i guess that reminds you two favors for people blue jays blue refractor out to 150 hayden junger you go to rano color match um i don't know have you heard anything about sgc brakes shipping uh i do not sorry daniel montecino purple refractor to 250 yeah i'm not sure on that job i would think now ish you see alamonte little nara's or henderson caminero davis pastas rookie spotlight or nanda's and call your junior caminero winner glow comes box four yeah coming our was on the list of like we're uploading all of this chrome base and everything matt speckle auto 299 junior tillian nolyn gorman i'll be male ever tell you about the tattoo i want to get now i only have one i want to get another one of the grim reaper holding a pinwheel this thing would be hilarious i don't know like no nobody else it would probably repel people but dipala i don't care it says through jones and bulky process marcus lee sang refractor dale cruz gumry i agree for big carol it's rookie spotlight drew jones modern prospects or hey eric brown winner glow are you starting to feel old now yeah oh my god yeah no the first time i ever felt old was 2017 number one pilot prospect was rachan gary oh that is mariners auto las romantes once again there you go mariners mag that for you very nice was uh it was rachan gary and same age as me for the same year like 70 d1 offers he's like six feet your muscle your athlete and i was like dude and stuff that's romantes spotlight just wait till the guys who like you remember their dad being a rookie yeah oh yeah be like like you remember a player and then his son starts playing and then his son retires and the son becomes a manager that we're already getting there with all the juniors you know stir jones that's all that yeah jonathan may hea purple pattern paper just in crawford no not really really i mean he's not not one of the big names i mean lower tier probably but yay ladies jordan back to the first half of the case braves purple refractor auto 250 on bioris tavarez yeah i figured now i think josh was just wanting a uh just going to low number part of this at the pirates all day sisco avarez zack jello sky blue montez i'm only two years younger than these that i can't feel what there's stuff i've never heard of like i was what year were you born 99 all right i didn't see i was it was barely like halfway through the first month of 2000 when i was holding up the drink really yeah spencer jones the table you know what i did on my 21st birthday watched off the space oh yeah pirates auto brail and bishop that is here i graduated zack nito through jones they seem to come in like they're kind of like pockets of them like i pulled a ton of mervis over like a i think it was thursday and friday yeah you're really pretty free and drew jones yeah louder and burnable 93 all right let's see a big card here that is atomic refractor first bowman auto debacks drew jones congrats arizona awesome hit debacks that's the lowest number drew jones auto i pulled so far this year big hit i think that was lauren right there you go lauren e it's been i've been a little while since lauren's been in a break with me jacob barry and her hinderson rookie spotlight or hey nortega there's cubs blue lunar crater refractor auto to 150 matt mervis awesome hit cubs the color match adly bam coyer very force what a box i know logo and young it is i think the club and auto's coming too logo no hop that is rookie fuchsia paper to 299 nice one angels i'm samania opson brady house lana lanzo yellow refractor 75 dodgers yeah me too i like the better one i just called in pages i've been told that i had something it's um anthony gutierrez spotlight i'll suede palla linear glow would have to zero on a box i don't know i'd find a choice i'd probably pass on that one my clears ooh nice billy's red paper three of five justin crawford our first red of the day red paper but still at red crawford that's awesome little white in that lower left corner in the top right here that won't gem if you grade it but still awesome case here i know we're you know what we should do right here we should get a baseball magician like on the wall right here a baseball magician you know like magic map but he has to yeah but he has to be like out of your bite put like have a bat with a little magic sparkle gimmicks coming off his bat find out where and how much light if shan do it he's there you know he's free to call up right oh the pain of credit can cause me you should yeah oh man there's no way there's absolutely no way i'd be able to hold on to that rambello sky blue 499 dodgers auto yiner fernandez yeah me too zavier isaac old young radian pulmenara's brew jones did they specify yeah that's actually that's actually a good point did they specify that it had to be as a player it's pirates rookie refractor auto 499 leo verpegero like 40 years down the line here as a manager yeah or a commentator an umpire all day passing it down through your family's territory spotlight i remember me and my buddy made that joke though it was like the funniest thing in middle school it's like you got five and two until well 2199999 and my buddy's like i'm gonna set this down through my family to generate to get the pump in angels green grass refractor auto to 99 randy dehesus nice hit for the angels we'll mag this one for you congrats angels reino 345 that'll be our sixth mag yeah that's true never know and imagine people that were ripping like oh nine bulman they're like mad that they got a trout all you know like yeah i've already seen uh the bridge for his video though hitting the orange he's like who's that i don't know if he's good or not yeah he might be good i love that video yeah i like you i think that is asus jordan lawlor blue refractor to 150 yep given my uh medical history my love for potato chips probably not me corbin carol and chariot logan wagner polpi sedanio and priestard red baby spotlight lasia green lunar glow if the doctor told me i could live to be 100 i'd just stop eating potato chips say let's not live in doctor say why she might have me or carol neon green paper to 399 mara schindrick martinis dodgers cam collier please jordan jason domingas purple ray wave blue watson i know that's i'm so tired of people dismissing delicious vegetables the starchy vegetables the corner start it's a vegetable potato chips made potatoes then dipped in ketchup that's not a Jackson holiday you dip your chips in ketchup no i'm saying like potato if you have french fries spencer jones but there's certain chips i do this maybe if you had like fresh like fried chips from a fair like yeah that's speck a lot of 299 junior tillion needle and colos did you know sam was once kicked out of texas roadhouse for asking for this day baked like baked fries true big big potato chips i love the i love the i do too the problem is it's like seven chips like only a hundred calories well yeah it's only one mouthful let's just not let it come back yeah blue jays auto louise garcia nice g7 yeah baked chips are all right you know it's really good put tortilla chips in the oven and especially if you just like burn them just a little bit rosa rookie silver hot light on taz peanuts yep blue jays auto and well bell tray out he ordered a steak there's riley green hey well done suit like shoe leather yep well done with ketchup he eats pizza with a fork too marcello meyer you shall lunar crater refractor to 199 what what is your limit on what you'll eat off the floor if nobody's around off the floor pretty much do you want to eat off the floor yeah maybe smile in your house yeah any day on friday in victor that's jj bladay purple pattern paper to 199 mariner marlins man i'm telling you the burgers of the food truck near my house are so good yeah yeah if a corporation didn't own it i would probably ask if they'd let me invest Henry davis bowen and bean we're at six mags right now see if we can finish with a cossus rookie spotlight lake blue b.a lunar glow red socks don't have a $5,000 bounty out for his super fractor rich will buy that super for $5,000 um so for me andy it depends on the steak if it's a really big steak sometimes i have to order a medium uh just regular medium because by the time i get through the uh like last third of a really big steak it's pretty much cooled off the steak's about to your method you know take your time and enjoy it you pull the lava refractor if it's that's awesome so if it's a really big steak i might order a medium just to make sure it's not like gross by the time i get to that last third samuels avala purple paper to 250 spencer jones and peraza the lowest number of like i've pulled so far was a yellow paper to 75 it was 25 away from a manufactured boom choreo justin henry maloy that is yellow lunar crater refractor 75 yeah but yeah if it's just a normal sized steak like 12 ounces or less definitely medium rare this is cardinals hono samiel delarosa and roheal yeah see i would air on the side of like ordering medium rare and getting medium rather than ordering rare and accidentally getting rare here's riley in holiday monos and berry steak tartar what is that i don't even know what that is i've heard of it like uh blue jays purple refractor on up to 250 menwell bell tray i've had it before i've what is it kind of like i don't know what you explain test oh raw steak yeah yeah i might be able to eat it not terrible this is go albarez brookie spotlight brooksley that's gonna go right here out to she feels all right rory just ruined it all the old re-stream over there the old re-stream this is rays refractor auto 499 rock jones i normally get my uh chicken steak rare it is chicken tartar chicken tartar chicken sashimi jesson paid earlier if you could give up if you had to give up either beef or chicken progressive your life what would it be chicken oh man but then you'd never be able to eat like wings again yeah i eat steak less i eat that less i'd rather give up like wings over like steak burger or anything you know whatever but burgers are fine but like that's not what i would miss what are you gonna do in the interim all right let me if you didn't give up want to give up that's your life chicken or beef oh beef very yeah well they need to take a hundred seven nights but hey for me that's a very bad question but i don't have a shot at least i believe like what would i give up like posture or cheap lean has first thing like a year and a half ago she's from the main guest aquilunar crater refractor to celebrate the anniversary of the national yeah every national celebrating my first day the anniversary of my first state buffalo you just see buffalo wings since they're from buffalos tomorrow so yeah i'm also that weird guy that doesn't like sauce yeah lane doesn't no condiments right and monthly last pack of the day bison burgers johnson silhouette men are way more than that if you're in congress michael royal lunar glow and manzardo that will do it for the case let's do a recap all right once again look at that stack let's save this to i don't know i'm just guessing here all right oh he left the room no i don't think he likes flavor no i don't like i i prefer a good burger with no ketchup on it and really good fries with no ketchup there's uh mariners aqua lunar crater refractor to 125 lazaro montez debacks atomic refractor and victor to 150 drew jones base autos cardinals simile de la rosa blue jays manuel bel tray dodgers yanna yanna franandes pirates grail and bishop aiz column tigers abel abel bastidas giants von brown rays refractor brock jones guardians refractor on hell's jet canal pirates rookie refractor leo virguero metz speckle junior tilian astros speckle shea wittcom metz speckle junior tilian deback speckle dominican zone and then purple refractor autos to 250 blue jays manuel bel tray braves ambiori's tavarez guardians jorge bergos blue jays blue uh blue refractor autos 150 hayden junger choked on my words there and then our mags mariners auto lazaro montez angels green grass refractor auto to 99 randy de hasus billy's red paper to five justin crawford that also has a little ding in the top edge there yeah that won't grade very well but still very nice card mariners blue lunar crater refractor auto to 150 lazaro montez cubs blue lunar crater refractor auto to 150 matt mervis and debacks that's atomic refractor auto to 100 drew jones i'll do it for the break thank you everybody i'll wrap it up in a minute all right that is it for me today um really that's interesting if all of that was super thinly sliced i would absolutely maybe be on board absolutely maybe um grab up your spots for tonight on the main channel also kenzie will be live at five on drip doing personal box breaks so um yeah have a good time with everybody tonight don't forget there is that big uh 50 box bowman through the years mixer 13 spots left i'm gonna drop a link for you here in case you'd like to take a look at the lineup or grab your spots 13 to go on that um but yeah have a great night everybody and i'll see you in the morning awesome appreciate it


With Evil Dead Rise just a few days away, I thought it would be fun to look back on the franchise as a whole at some of the movie posters, the iconic and not so iconic ones, and see how they shake out in 2023. You might wanna grab a loved one or a blanket because things are about to get scary. Let's dive in. ["Dive In"] All right, we're starting with the first, oh my gosh, Bruce Campbell's here, off camera where you can't see him. Bruce, say hi so they can Yeah, groovy, he said groovy, so clearly he's here. What's that, Bruce? That's a good point. He said you should subscribe to the channel Adam Does Movies because they do poster breakdown videos every week and we have to have people here. I also put out tons of movie related content, movie reviews, rants, news stories, just, I mean, it's all things movies. It's called Adam Does Movies. We'd love to have you. Thanks, Bruce. Yep, you can show yourself out. Yep. Okay. The first poster is from the classic Evil Dead all the way back in 1981. Directed by Sam Raimi, it stars Bruce Campbell. Fantastic film. Nice start to this property. This is a wonderful poster designed by Graham Humphries, a dude that's been in the industry for over 40 years. He did iconic posters such as Nightmare on Elm Street, House of a Thousand Corpses, and here we are with the Evil Dead. Look at this beautiful display. I'm a big fan of Les's More and here we have just one central character reaching up to the sky with what presumably will be her last breath. While another undead zombie reaches up from the grave parallel to hers, you have a nice tracking point from the top left all the way down to the center. This leads your eyes right to the central figure and it tells you a tale. A tale that's grim, a tale that's disturbing.  The most ferociously original horror film of the year.  So naturally this is an attractive looking woman and they went out of their way. This artist went out of his way to rip some of the key areas of her nightgown so it reveals a little skin.  Sadly, men are simple creatures. We see scary things. We see horror elements. We see a good looking woman. We're going to the theater. I also love the amount of detail in this poster. The painting is beautiful. You have little silhouettes here and there. You have these cool reflections off the fleshless skin rising up from the ground. And then you have this unique typography very different than most of the stuff you see in the horror genre. It's got a rock and roll aesthetic to it which is also telling audiences this is not your traditional horror film and it certainly wasn't. Sam Raimi moves that camera everywhere. Like it's on a roller coaster. It's zooming in, it's pulling out. It's very shocking with this guy and I love it. I love this poster. Look how he even puts the strap down on the side showing off that shoulder, that beautiful shoulder. It's just, you want to take a bite out of it yourself. It's like you're the zombie in this situation. Let's move on. And here we have the poster for Evil Dead 2, Dead by Dawn. I can't say I love it. I really can't. It's different than the first one. Maybe two different than the previous entry. They removed the logo treatment. Now we have a totally different typography. It's a little bit more standard. What you come to expect from a scary movie. It's almost got that dripping blood look to it. Everything's kind of oozing away from the lettering. It's punchier with the color. It's not in white anymore. There's still good negative space. I like the black off to the left side which draws you down to the title. And this poster communicates a couple things to me. One, it's creepy. Two, it's also playful.  It's impressive. You have human eyes looking out of a hollowed out face. Just the skull remains, but then those eyes are clearly still alive. It's pretty creative. I will give it that. I just don't like the inconsistency from the first movie to the second movie poster treatment. It does make good use of shadow and lighting. It's a very nice render of the skull. I will say that. Easily my favorite of this Evil Dead franchise is the army of darkness poster and movie.  You have Ash front and center in a power stance. The hot chick by his side, cleavage out of course. Because again, we have to get people into the theater. Oh yeah, and the dude's rocking a chainsaw for a hand. Now anybody that's seen these movies knows army of darkness is far sillier than the previous two entries. This one's a full blown comedy. Also, there's horror elements, sure. But it's not scary. It's full on camp in the best way possible. And I think that's what the poster's trying to convey. There's lots of references to the movie itself. You have the little versions of Ash stabbing him with the fork. You have the undead army behind him, flags and all. And you have skeleton warriors up front hidden behind a vehicle. The same vehicle that will crash land at the beginning of this picture. This has that classic fantasy feel to it too. You think Star Wars when you look at something like this. The hero is standing larger than life, standing tall over all the surrounding commotion. The woman's hiding behind her man, hoping that he's gonna save the day. He's got the chest out kind of like me, but a lot more aggressive. He's a lot more powerful, a lot more proud, I think of as physique. And the way the painter lights this poster up is just brilliant. You have these reds and oranges illuminating everything. They start at the bottom. They work their way up through the chainsaw and the legs. They come off the side of the abs. And you even see some faint glowing in the castle behind which ties it all together really well up to the orange font above which oddly says from the director of Darkman. Not from the director of Evil Dead which makes me think Sam Raimi wants this to feel standalone-ish. He doesn't want you to think scary Evil Dead. He wants you to think something a little lighter. It's also got a hilarious tagline, trapped in time, surrounded by evil, low on gas. It's just nonsense. And that's the army of darkness in a nutshell. We have a nice Sarah Fonteer too with really sharp points. Look at that A, look at that R. They're dangerous. It's a really cool font. It almost looks like Dracula style. Like those are teeth ready to strike. It works so well with this. I mean, the overall painting is just gorgeous. Huge fan of this. I could easily put this one up in the room. Last but not least, we have the new poster for Evil Dead Rise. This one's got your standard modern Photoshop treatment to it. Not a bad poster. It's kind of cool. It's kind of different. I do like how it has the old school typography for the Evil Dead Rise title going all the way back to the first Evil Dead film. Obviously it's been spruced up a little bit. I do like how they handle this treatment. In super duper tiny font above the title, it says from the visionary producer of the original classic, the producer. That says so little. It says so little. And they're doing that because this director has really nothing to his name. Only a few very small indie projects. So this is really the first time he's getting to step up and show his stuff. And it's kind of bizarre because this is a property that's very well-beloved. From the looks of the trailer, it looks like they did a damn good job. But it remains to be seen. As far as this poster goes, it certainly looks like a scene from the film. It's very focused on this mom that apparently loves her children to death.  This is not a healthy situation that we're living in right now. The mom's got some scrapes. She's got some cuts and bruises, clearly been weathered by, from whatever disease is running through her body or demonic possession is probably more likely. Notice she has a tattoo on the hand. Now I wanna know if that was pre-demonic possession or post.  That's okay, that's fine. No judgment there. I will say she's got some pretty nice teeth. They look, I mean, very, very nicely aligned. She's probably had Invisalign at some point in time. She's a redhead. I appreciate that. We don't see a lot of that in cinema. It's good representation. Overall, this is a very clean, solid poster. I don't think it's anything too amazing by any means. Certainly not as great as that classic painting from the first film or the incredibly good artwork that we saw in Army of Darkness. This is just kind of a standard, solid movie poster. Now because it's 2023 and I have a hard time figuring out what movie posters are coming from actual studios and what movie posters are coming from fans because fans have gotten so good at this now or other smaller shops that are trying to make a name for themselves. Maybe they were outsourced. Some piece of artwork to do but I will throw up a few more that are really well executed just so you can see there is a lot of creativity left in the art department. And oftentimes unfortunately, it's not coming from the big studios. It's not coming from those big pipelines. It's from the little guy working out of his house. Well, there you have it. Evil Dead posters. You gotta love them. You gotta love this movie franchise. Let me know your thoughts in the comments. Are you excited for the new movie?  I'm like 80% confident it's gonna be good. That's a nice place to be in 2023. Let me know in the comments. What's your favorite movie poster? And I would love to know if there's any you wanna see me do next. Maybe Indiana Jones, Back to the Future. What's on the horizon for movies that we can talk about? Let me know. All right, make sure to subscribe if you haven't. Like the video if you had a good time. Hit the notification bell. That's a big one. I always forget to tell people, hit that bell we have to. And then I'll see you next time for sure. Take care.