Right, we're gonna assume this works. Hello everybody if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer And that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly joining me as always Is somebody who I personally think is underrated. It's Tom. How you doing, buddy? Hello friends Thanks Tom this was a nice week I could have said I could have said overrated, but I didn't you did you did I appreciate that I have to be nice to you being that you're driving way out of your way and like a day and a half to come get me and And take me to this tournament because then I this tournament that I'm not even gonna be able to play all five games with you Because I have to fly right to go to work. Yeah, and then I have to drive home alone. That is true I am really leaving you in the lurch here. It's uh, it's unfortunate You'll be happy to know though that this is the last year that's going to happen Because because schedules of this thing that has gotten us the past two years is changing It's moving and it's time in the year So it will no longer conflict with holy havoc and there is much rejoicing Because it is awful to not be able to relax and enjoy myself the entire Wonderful holy havoc weekend something I look forward to all year Indeed indeed it's going to be a fantastic weekend. It's going to be real good I'm very much looking forward to it for all of you out there who are going to see at Holy havoc. I can't wait. It's going to be a lot of fun I figured out a different way to mute my mic tonight, by the way, tom where I muted it So if you couldn't hear me they couldn't hear me So I would know in the pre-show when I was talking to you So that way there was no risk. See I'm figuring things out Someday we'll get like an overlay or something. Won't that be neat? But you know I mean Sure that seems like work that does seem like work At any rate, we've got some news You know, this is going to be kind of a quiet week But actually we got some exciting news here kind of middish in the weekend and even some today So Rumor engine it's already up on the screen. Yeah, we'll start there. It's so beautiful. Um I've been looking forward to the Freemasons being a part of this. Sure. Sure.  Yeah Sure. Yeah, it's just evolution or something Illuminati confirmed. Yes, correct Um, yeah, uh So What do you think this is? Uh, I think it is a little waystone Yeah, that is Uh Part of a base that somebody is like leaping or jumping off of I guess or flying off of like this is a like we always put We always with with our flying models.  This is the base to one of the flying angel elves And they're feedy or they're wingies or they're whatever whatever their mystical toilet paper is that they have floating behind them Sure, sure is attached to this Sure, everybody who flies has some kind of mystical toilet paper to attach them to things You can see it in a little bit in the back Yeah, looks like something's yes hanging off the wood person I mean, I think it's elves of some sort. I don't know what kind but I do I agree. I think it is elves Um, can I can I ask a question? Yeah, man. Um, is that wheat? It looks like wheat. Yeah. Yeah, yeah Can I ask something else? Sure Could that be arrows? I don't think so. They're kind of they're kind of blowy and they're all moving in the same direction Like they're they have this swoop of we have, you know, wheat in the wind, right? Right and I thought so too, but then I got to looking at it and I'm like, I wonder if these are Um, like it could be arrows is the other thing that I thought when I thought again I think it's probably wheat. All right. Let me ask you a question We're always the eternal question of aos is what are the farmers doing? Right? That's just forever the question Sure. Okay. What color is heish? Yellow, right? I I agree yellowy amber, right? Ambers a fair color amber waves of grain boom Solved it right there wheat grows in heish. Hence this is the light elves We've done it get out my board. It's it's uh, pepe silvia all the way Yep, there you go nailed it I I think we've solved this mystery So really one more down Continuing our hundred percent accuracy rating on rumor engines Forens actual accuracy may be different than stated amount. Uh, yeah close friends. Um So that's not really what people want to talk about. Um Let's talk about, um, like bone daddies went up this week for pre-order Um, we had the the box set and then we're gonna have the rest of the stuff next week. It looks like Um, and uh, we had like man reads book happened this week. Sure. Um So what what have your thoughts been? Uh, yeah, I mean, I think they're a good army. I think they've got I think they're a good Uh, I think they'll have a good place in the meta against some of the stronger armies out there Like I think in general they're Depending on the force, uh, quite well predisposed against armies like slanesh Yep, um, like I I I think it will be very hard Depending on the build If you're if you're in one of the sort of higher armor type of builds, you know, one of the more immovable object builds Yeah, they'll bounce a lot slanesh. Yeah, slanesh won't stand a chance. I mean, you'll just wipe the table with them Um, I think that they're well, they'll be an interesting matchup for stuff like iron jaws Which is also not a bunch of super high rend But does manufacture a lot of just attacks and offensive power, but doesn't have a ton of mortal wounds Um, they do seem weak largely to Like much like storm cast or something like that, right? Like if you have a highly mortal wound focused force Uh, you'll you'll peel these guys at a rate that they can't handle in attrition wise, right? These are all just initial suspicions. I obviously there's still a lot more I don't have the book in hand and we won't be doing the review show for this We're gonna do maw tribes first just so everybody understands because I like this is a very complicated new book And like the internet is full of hot takes. It's the best thing ever. It's the worst thing ever. It's s tier. It's garbo right just like It's it's all over the shop and uh, I feel like there's so many new mechanics and so much, uh Detail and complexity to this army that I would like some time to actually ingest it and give people like An intelligent readout on it and also re-rolling ones jack bone daddy's bone daddy's get into it Don't fight it. You and the rest of the washington crew.  It's what they are. They're bone daddy's I mean, they're led by the ultimate daddy. Okay. They are bone daddy's Yeah, he literally has his like You know Krakatoa is a daddy. Don't tell me otherwise. Look at that, dude He is at any rate Uh, yeah, so I mean, I think they've got a lot of potential Uh, you know, obviously there's a couple janky things coming out like the commandability spam writer list that would just like Keep piling in and and dealing mortal wounds and stuff. So they ended up shooting like nine inches past I don't know if that's a proper read on how it works I wouldn't I wouldn't if that's the army you're thinking of I wouldn't go buy a bunch of boxes of writers If if that's what you're being dependent on right like if that's if that goes away, you no longer like the army Yeah, I would uh I would wait on the faq if you think that those writers look awesome, which by the way The mounted dudes are the only figs in the army that I like Now like I've gone all the way around and I love how you like you've done your full journey Besides krakatoa himself, right the big boy. He's obviously like He's obviously amazing But like the the of the of the infantry the only thing I actually enjoy is the is that the knights who I think look I I love your journey. It's been quite a journey of the aesthetics of these guys. They're so different Yeah Uh, so but yeah, I I'm interested to get into them in more detail Uh, it seems that they are often very hard pressed on bodies. They are in fact a pretty darn elite force Yeah, I think what you're gonna find so like my call on these guys is that these guys are are going to suffer from all of the strengths and weaknesses of storm cast So if you like storm cast and what they have like like their initial outing not like expanded storm cast year five No, but like high bodies Low you mean high high armor bodies like high armor bodies low model count Super tough low mobility a couple standout mobile units some strong not so mobile shooting like um Yeah, there's a lot of similarities to like a refined early storm cast here Yep, um with the exception obviously that they have very good access. Well, I shouldn't say very good. They have Some decent to very good access to returning healing forces, right? Which which could be the lever that differentiates them because if it was just Uh, the fact that they're ultra high armor alone like it's not that's not enough Right, right. No, I agree with that. They would they would underperform even existing storm cast if they didn't have the return mechanics Yep, and but I think and I think that some of those return mechanics are going to be quite compelling No, I agree. They're powerful.  Yeah, I'm gonna continue to say his name wrong because it's funny to me With catacross Sure. Um, what I would say is that I mean, I agree with that even though like that's still the list I would play Like it's just it has it does the things I want it to do. Um but it's interesting to me because Like I'm going to be watching the FAQs real closely because those harvesters the way that are worded Like one dying model if those three inch bubbles overlap. Yeah, sure you get Two Two like one model generates two healing Um, which means that like on on averages on the numbers you will never lose models Right. Yeah, sure. Assuming you roll statistically.  Of troops like and you and you push that forward it'd be like good 12 Probably a good 16 inches across just pushing it forward. Um, like every all the skeletons would be immune to damage Like they would always return because you could always remove them from that that hole and then immediately replace them, right? Yeah, yeah It's gonna be a question of does that trigger is it one of those single replacement effects, right? Like they have answered that things like that can only trigger once before like a a single trigger can only be Answered by one thing like it has also been answered. Yes in the reverse before There are conflicting answers as to how much you can respond to a single trigger Yes, yes, so Time will tell if it's too. Yeah, exactly. It's gonna be super interesting Um, like where this stuff lands honestly Um, yeah, I'm uh, I'm I'm anxious um to see um, I'm not gonna buy this army as I've stated But I may I have a conversion concept for a nice little tight 2000 points Yeah, sure of this again full review will be in coming in a couple weeks It's gonna be a little while because next weekend the book comes out then Though that week will basically be maw tribes and then like the week after because they're both that in the We'll do that in the maw tribes book and then The week after that once we have time to actually ingest everything is probably when we'll do Bone daddies. Um, both of which I suspect are gonna be shows on the road So how fun will that be? Huh? Sounds terrible hotel shows for the newest and most important book reviews. Hey This is this is the schedule folks. I don't make it. This is the quality that we offer you No, uh, but yeah, I'm interested and and some people people have been praising more tech guard in the in the comments And I do agree with that. They are one of the more compelling like basic battle lines.  They're You know reasonably well-costed have a have an obvious achilles heel and sort of mortal wounds But can be sort of mitigated in a few ways if you can get your spell off or have Harvesters around. So this is a nice. It's a nice give and take there feels pretty feels pretty right on Uh, that would be amazing Um, I agree and mandalas.  Um, uh The resolution was for this year and this year is swiftly coming to an end Now if somebody wants me to do that, they can start a go fund me to all of my armies I think uh, please don't do that. That's $1,500 an army. Sure And and no do not do that. That's a bad idea. Um, because I can't paint all that come on now That's the reason why not because people shouldn't throw good money at you And you're perfectly capable of purchasing your own things No, as we know go fund me's are for healthcare in america at any rate. That's okay I mean, you're not wrong. Um, okay, uh Other news. Uh, we had the spire tyrants reveal at spiel. Um So we found vences leather daddies kind of yeah a little bit. They were kind of Did you see the mankini? Yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, well, he looks like that. He looks like I don't have the photo for him. Oh, sorry Uh, but yes, he looks like he looks like the muppet He looks like I don't remember the muppet's name and it's killing me I don't remember his name, but he was the one who who was like who sold him a car in the original muppet movie He was like, come on guys, wait up. I want to go to hollywood, too He has a funny name, but I cannot remember his name and it's going to bother me Um, hold on. I gotta do this That's fine. So, yes, we had that reveal I was kind of hoping for more chaos warrior-ish style I mean But I mean, you know, but there there it is. It is like They're marauder. They're marauder war man. Yeah Yeah, there you go. Um, man Look at that mankini right here in the middle. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, he's got the full v going on the full v Yeah Just delightful. Uh, the other thing I loved is like Oh, where'd he go? Look at that eye Mm-hmm goat man there It looks like a fisheye. That's what I was gonna say. It looks like a fisheye Through a fisheye lens. No, it's not fozzy bear Sean. I would know who fozzy bear is I'm like one of the biggest fans of the muppets in the world Okay Yeah, uh, and like it is bothering the I'm gonna google this while you're showing this thing because this is killing me Okay, well, I remember this muppet name. I'm done. So Regardless, it's uh I you know, I don't know how to what to think about the spired hirants. Um Yep, they're coming uh We had um We had a leak drop this week of um Of the december 12th Ship like release schedule Right and it had Yes, that has now been confirmed. I mean, that's real like All of the darkness coming. Yes. The slaves to darkness release. We had it confirmed because We also got the release for the battle tote for the battle boxes, whatever Information and those all then got announced. Yes So that's exciting. Yeah Uh, which would you like to talk about what those four battle boxes are? Sure, that was quite surprising. It was uh, these got announced today. Uh, storm cast, uh, sacrosanct chamber night haunt, um a scaven and Um, I'm blinking on earth.  Hey, look, there it is gloomsplay gets. Yeah, I did it all from memory.  It's swedoms That's the name of the muppet Good lord at any rate. I had to go all the way down to minor characters Which I take offense to swedoms is a pivotal character in the original movie at any rate Continue slays the original 14th four battle force boxes. Are you done? Okay. Um, the uh, yeah So I was like I was not real taken by any of the battle force boxes So they're interesting. So the storm cast as you mentioned is sacrosanct and it's like 22 minis or something like that because it's 10 sec es five evos The foot arcanum Six skittigator and six skittigators, right Yep, these are all by the way, uh one What did I say they were 185 175 they're 185 except for the scaven one was just 200 Yeah, it's actually this Well the scaven one is is is pretty good as a base for a scaven army. Let's not lie Night haunt is just like have a unit of everything just just right It's literally just like one of all of the like all of the non push to fit units Yeah, some chain wraps some blade geists some of those not Banshees the other ones the The heritance to the dress. Thank you. Yeah the craven king guy is there right dude on the throne. Yeah Yeah, uh, it's just it's just all the ghosts just all your ghosty boys Well, I mean it's just oh and there's uh, there's some uh, there's some x-rays in there too, right? Yeah, and then five x-rays. Yeah That's right. It's all it's just it is an incredible selection of all the ghosty boys uh the um The gits one I actually liked a lot Thank you I did because I think it's actually a fun base for like if you've been wanting to get into the gits But you didn't have a good way to get all those new kits if you want to get them gits, but you can't get them kits This is a good. This is a good base for it. Like if you like the new stuff Yeah, 10 It's 10 of the boingy boys 10 of the boing grew up bounders or the regular hoppers because you get whatever Yeah, it's um Three of the rock cut trolls. Yep. Okay Five of the five fanatics. Yep And uh a mangler squig which is cool because obviously you could build that as the loon boss on mangler squig And the regular loon boss on fit. Uh, I just think it's a cool base for A sort of squiggy based army like if that's your jam, right? If you've been wanting to put which a lot of those kits were new they're kind of expensive It's actually not a bad deal cost-wise what you get savings. I would have rather seen all squigs You're saying like squig herd type of thing. Like, yeah, like, uh, Did I mention the three trolls? You have three rock cut trolls in there, too. I know. Yeah, you got that. Like mangler boingers the The snufflers and the herders Yeah, like just give me all the squigs like that box would have sold I don't know that this one will sell. I don't know fair enough I think it's the most appealing parts of the army that appeals to like just people who legitimately love the army Sure, right. Like and and that's ultimately what you want this for because remember these are there as Christmas gifts Right.  Like there's a different market here Right as your primary. We're secondary. Yeah, I don't I don't disagree with that And then the scaven winds incredible because it's like a warplighting cannon, which could also be a plague claw It's one of the vermin lords which can be any vermin lord, right? Right. It's the uh screaming bell which can also be the uh the um The pestilence one name name leading me at the moment It's 20 clan rats and 20 plague monks and a gracier They just might as well call it like the filth. I think it does have like filth in the name somewhere Uh, I really think it does which is funny because it might as well just be like your filth starter pack Hey, you want all the filthiest stuff? Here's one box with all of it. You got your 20 clan rat screen You got your plague monk base to get started.  Thank you, autumn It was it was the name was alluding me. Um, like it's a it's a pretty great scaven box Uh, I don't disagree. I don't disagree. Um, which is probably why it's more right. Yeah Yeah, I mean clearly because it has three decent sized models like the screaming bell the the canon and the um The canon's obviously more of like a chariot-sized thing, but it's bigger, right and the vermin lord. Yeah Yeah, it makes me think though like Oh, that's what his corruption war swarm was his name should have had filth in the title Should have been like the filth war swarm All the filth you could want But I wonder like is it is it? I mean, it's a good deal because of the like the vermin lord itself makes it a good deal But um, it just makes me wonder like a double Like a double starter box Gets you quite a bit of that. Sure, right. Yeah. Yeah um You're talking about like the the pestilence starter box the one that has like plaguey monks. Sure. Sure. Sure Because the because you get both the like you get the two of those are double dual kits. Yeah, um So anyways, I mean I like two of these as a base because that's actually a pretty solid base Two vermin lords is not that uncommon two warp lightning cannons cool. You're set on where you want to be there You could build one as the the uh one as the furnace and one as the bell Awesome You got two little gray seers on foot you could convert one of them to be an engineer if you wanted Hey, there's that solved and you got a full 40 or of clan rats and a full 40 or of plate monks, right? Like right It's truly the filth Yeah, so, you know, I don't know. They're interesting. That's what I'll say Somebody asked do we think we're gonna see start collecting for the individual sides of feast of bones and my answer to that is I mean no not yet, but like On a long enough time frame. Sure come talk to me like fall to christmas next year and yeah You'll probably see some start collecting in the in the third and fourth quarter of next year Yeah, yeah, I mean eventually like I'm still waiting on clan pack. Uh, I'm still waiting on like plastic Uh Get like a loon boss on on squig on giant squig and yeah, I get it like all of those heroes were still waiting on so um That's a good point and coach mentioned it. Yeah, it would have been cool to get the Those rare heroes in these battle force boxes But at the same time would that have just made everybody insane Really think about what you're saying there. Okay, let's imagine. I understand that like it seems like the kind of thing where you're like Oh, wouldn't that have been nice to do that? No No, you would have been like You would have been angry. Why do they have it in here? No, you can put it in this But I can't get it on its own like it would have sent people over the edge Not having it at all is like annoying But if you had included it in like a hundred eighty two hundred dollar box basically people would have lost their minds They're mine I mean it already was in a 180 dollar box Again, if you continue to make that the only deployable mention of it, right? Sure. So, uh, my point is like Be careful what you ask for because I don't think you're right coach The more I think about that the more I think that's a dubious ask The internet would not have been pleased with that that the modal outcome of that is twitter anger Not that that's reality. It would have been funny Would have happened Yes So, yeah, it would not boxes are good Yeah, yeah, I I'm a fan of cheap models And uh, and they deliver sure the 40k one's got announced too, but whatever it's fine. They'll be good. They all seem whatever They're a little cheaper because they're they they some of them didn't have as much stuff, but that's fine um Painting stuff man. Oh We can't escape the new product release without mentioning all the painting stuff You mean the new red handle? Yes So Speed sure, uh, we got a new painting handle that's red Okay, sure. I guess why not fine. It's the same cost as the other one. So Fine, but it's red. So you paint faster Sure, you could also just like airbrush your existing paint handle or something and that would be fine Uh, but whatever you like. That's it's nice Uh, they have a they have like a a bundle pack for paint handles because they realized people don't buy just one of those Uh, they buy Multiples so now you can get five in a pack at a cheaper price. Uh, it's a start collecting get it right Sure start collecting paint handles Uh, they got they they added The funniest one to me was the priming handle.  We got to sell them something that they like that's healthy and we got all this tap water We use it our plants to bottle or whatever, right? And they were like, why no Well, I don't know. This is the case for sure, but it feels like it's true They're like, I know we'll just bottle up all this water and sell it to them And so we like when I was young I was like, I would never buy a bottle of water That is insane to me who would buy just water, right? And now everybody buys water the answer is everybody apparently we all we've all been tricked into buying water.  Maybe for hours Right, and like this is actually really relevant. You don't want to be I see people hold the fig in their hand And I just want to go up and smack the fig out of their hand Because you're going to get a worse paint job. Your hand is not meant to have that kind of stress on it for a lengthy period of time It's actually just that's legitimately bad for you Keeping your hand in a low stress position like this is important, right?  I'm just saying Well, they wanted to see how far they could go Uh, I guess it's it's day. I mean look Congratulations gw you win people probably buy it I guess so Yep, there you go. I mean, yeah, I'll I somebody I think really and it said this won't replace my empty pizza boxes I appreciate that attitude. I haven't primed anything besides terrain with a rattle can in years So I don't intend to start anytime soon. This is not a product for me.  Sure You know what would also prevent that? Better design Bottle pots. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah proper bottles. Yeah. I mean, there's no like Drop bottles for people would this is the one product people wouldn't want in dropper bottles Like I'm sure if gw said tomorrow we've put all our normal base and layer paints in dropper bottles The response would be like largely positive. There would be a vocal Minority of my minority. I mean something less than 50 right, um That that doesn't like that because there are people who legitimately like pots Whatever fine. You like whatever you like Um, but the shades are the one thing where people would actually I think revolt if they put those in dropper bottles Sure Because like people like to just crack open the thing take a little out and apply the wash They don't want to like put it out onto a pallet or something like like you see dunk and do by the way in every video Right Right Yeah There you go But yeah, maybe just they have products for those things now It's it's the best solution to a problem they caused Yes Like you have this problem. Let us give you a solution. It's fantastic Their design has a fatal flaw Right that these things are easy to knock over. Yes but even though they Even though they could potentially fix the flaw itself instead Where's the money in that? Just make a second product to fix the first product Oh, yeah It's so great like this is the world we live in. This is genius. I've got to say I saw that and I was like Taste the marketing it's good And that's not a slam on gw.  They won't buy it if people like them They will it's just the funny It's just a funny sequence of events to me, right Uh, yeah Yes So yes, that's the world we live in sure sure sure It would be like if your screen that you bought for your computer was overly bright And instead of just fixing the screen in a later model they sold you like a serene dimmer filter to put over the front Like a mask if you're screen too bright. Here's a mask to reduce the uh the lumens. Yeah It's pretty great. It's pretty great. It's a magical world we live in. Uh, but hey, there you go. Uh, all right So what else did do we have anything else in news? Is that a lot? I don't think so. I mean nothing. That's important. Uh, like I said slaves of darkness is coming That we don't know what this means for zinch We had called we had heard that zinch got moved up bumped up to the end of the year And if this is going to sit in that December slot, uh, that could mean that zinch has been pushed off into the new year Yeah, sure um Yeah, I mean I would say that's highly likely because they didn't show the 7th to the 14th and they don't have a release window really on the 21st Let's hope that you uh, bought your feast of bones. Let's say that. Oh, because they're like gone. Yeah, they're gone sure I mean all these box sets have sold super fast and this was a hot new army and this was your chance to get it So before a week before the rest of the army came out So, okay Yep thing At least this hero seems to not be very good Yeah, yeah, he's like the low tan of the army. So like, uh, nobody's gonna be really hurting. He's not an arch region Nobody's that broken up about not getting him. Although the battalion is not terrible. It lets you return more, uh More gas to the their unit Sure But you can refill more gas units. I was like, oh, hi You could uh, you could also just take like It's one of your dudes and uh Put something put a tombstone on his back and done Sure, sure. I feel like you just You just you got that covered Uh, indeed indeed. Yeah Uh Brilliant said look he isn't good, but low tan. You're right.    All right Uh, so That's our news Uh, let's talk about some pick of the week man. What do you got? Um, yeah, uh, I'm gonna spruke uh honest wargamer show just simply because I watched their ocr phone reapers review before the book's been released And uh and enjoyed it. It was a good uh couple hour they they took a uh, um, rob did did a uh rebuttal a Return a affirmation of your shelf slanish. Sure. Um, and embraced your calling him a terrorist. Yes Um, I knew he would take that the right way. That's why it wasn't indeed. He's a good guy indeed, um But I mean, he's right.  Yeah, I know Yeah, okay That's my pick go watch that. It's pretty fun. Sure It's at 47 30. I think is where it's at from last week's episode if you're curious. So there you go Um, and yes, I did see that seraphon they seraphon technically went four and one They did get a minor loss because they were they thought seraphon at bloodshed in the shires was five and oh But then when they actually looked and recalculated the points They there was a mistake in their tracking of the points and the seraphon There was actually a tie and seraphon had long lost on kill points, which I mean Like kill points is not a thing that seraphon want to be you know, battle over, right? Um, but still incredibly impressive performance by terra dam Who took the double he had double shadow strike or whatever it's called Yeah So yes, and and that was actually I'll tell you right now. Yes. I saw that w soren It's one of the things that inspired me to do this show this week and talk about underrated Uh lists because seeing that performance was really I was like that's Amazing. That's what a cool off-metal list Piloted by somebody who? uh Piloted by somebody who who really has like a knowledge and a care and a love of the force and what you can accomplish Right. It was that plus tom crafted a list that I think is very off-center on Cities, which I don't know if he's going to share tonight or not because he's mr. Secret with his Oh, I'll share it like uh the lists that we're going to cover tonight By the way aren't like the ones that I've shared are all my real lists that I've either taken to local events Or have like or looking at potentially taking at actual like 2k events So like these are my lists not like theory crafted Um, like wild lists all mine are just wild lists that I theory crafted. Absolutely uh, but at any rates the uh It was it was one of the things that inspired me to talk about this this week because I I think that there's There's always so much more space to explore in a lot of these armies That doesn't get touched because we all like net listing has become not only easy But just subconsciously what we all do we hear certain people talk about things and just go well That's the only way to play the thing Right, and we don't bother to go play games and test if there are other alternatives until somebody who actually is an innovator Like taradan comes in and goes no no look at this I can I can bring this thing back out and it's really good in the current meta It's not like he found something that nobody knew about people knew that Formation existed it's just people hadn't been piloting it or didn't think of that guess he recognized it in the current meta It was actually a powerful play right So, uh Yeah, so so that was part of it, uh, my shout out is going to be to our buddy doom and darkness Who did a four and a half? Yes, my wife is home Who did a four and a half hour? review with hey woe twitch the maw tribes My dogs are barking now. Yes. Hello dear. How you doing good? I'm in the show. Okay. Okay. I just got home from Honor flight training. Yes Okay. All right. I love you all right Uh, all right, so You know, I'm always like it's not that those lists that become popular in the meta aren't good They are obviously that's how they sort of became popular and approved themselves in event after event, right? They're not the only thing that's out there. Exactly. It's easy to think that That because they are good and seen a lot they have this sort of self-fulfilling prophecy that they're the only thing of quality but uh speaking of things that a lot of people have Uh, have poo pooed but actually probably have quality Is the maw tribes which is hence the doom and darkness review so go watch four and a half hours The two of these gentlemen Both talking about an army that they really love you've got a great coverage there Because you've got uh, you know doom and darkness is bringing the the gut busters Hey woe is bringing the bcr these these people these are people who've put a lot of time into these two armies And you can see their thoughts Yeah, I'm I'm very excited to review the maw tribes book. I think it's gonna be Yep All right So, uh, I'll link both of those down below Uh, but let's talk about some hobby time. What are you working on tom? Is your army done? You got another day? You have 24 hours Uh, I like I realized I looked up and I saw that my uh, my my purple sun Didn't have its base for him painted So apparently I need to do that tonight I should be bringing no unpainted base and trying to put it on my my my board tom that is Uncheptable. Well, like like just the rim wasn't painted. So get to rimming tom. I will I will do that Uh vociferously tonight. I'm sure you've got a job to do Okay, and it's getting something on the rim of that base I'm just saying get it done. I will take care of it. Good. Good. Good Is your army packed up other than that? No, it's like right there and I'm not gonna have time tomorrow So like I realized that I have to like make sure everything's magnetized and pack everything up tonight Yeah, sure. Yeah, I've got everything packed up And ready to go uh because I have to pack for like the whole week since I'm flying directly from uh Just painted the hotel jake. I mean tom. Yes, very nice. Thanks. Thanks Uh, I have to fly directly from the tournament to uh, you know for for a business trip for the week So I have to pack for like A while I gotta get everything together for both for very different very different trips. So uh, but I Say all that to say uh my uh, but that's not what I'm working on right now. Um, I've been working on my uh, my city's uh death cult army um, and so I've been um I'm doing lots of kit bashing right now and doing some magnetizing nice Yeah, nice. Uh, phoenix card. In fact So despite what we're gonna talk about Still a slave to that filth No, so the irony being I I am I am converting phoenix card to be executioners Okay So I'm using so you guys want to know where all those Where like all those phoenix card are that everybody's like whining about because they're not at the gw store I have like five boxes and I'm converting uh 20 so you're chopping them to turn into executioners Right, that's exactly right Phoenix guard a much a much uh inferior unit Hey, whatever Uh, I am working on my larissa shadow strike the that for um So she's right here.  She's in separate. Uh She's beautiful. This is the this is the store anniversary Like knight questor or whatever, right? Yep. Yep. She's gorgeous. She's one of the best models I've ever seen to make just in in craft And what I mean by that is like she has very easy sub assemblies And when you put the pieces back together all the gaps are hidden Nice Her she doesn't have any cracked shoulders like you can assemble the shoulder Completely on the cloak and then her lower body just slides right up underneath It's fantastic um So i'm working on her For I was hoping to get a little farther along with her before I had to leave for a week But sadly I will not be doing that Because I mean she's she's a golden demon project. So she's gonna take a long time um But we'll we'll you know, we'll get there with her we'll get there I'm excited. I got a lot more stuff in the cities to work on but the way I've decided for my for my tempest eye army um The way I've decided to do this is I'll do like one of my golden demon projects and then I'll do a couple units of cities And then one of the golden demon projects and then a couple units of cities and it'll be a nice, uh It'll be a nice mix to help me like to prevent burnout And stuff like that. So it'll also give me time to gather up all the bits I need from various places for all the prototypes. So I'm not rushed on that I know all about that and I'm happy to play my like iron jaws or or beasts or something like that in the interim or apparently My uh my zinch slaves to darkness since I'll be able to get those back out soon. Hopefully so Zang um, all right So come right What's that? So they just come right back around they come right back around. Yeah, absolutely I'm I mean I'm I still love that army that that zinch std force that I put together years back Is is I actually haven't grown to hate it. So that's weird Because normally that's what I do. I grow to hate a thing that I created or painted Over time, but I still like them. So that's fun All right, Tom. So let's talk about underrated lists units We're gonna both go through some lists, but also just talk about other underrated forces in general So at a high level you already mentioned a little bit of this But I think there is a bit of an echo chamber effect. Yep in the Right in the in the world. I've become more sensitive to this the farther we have went Like in our show. Sure. Um, just recognizing Like Is it the chicken or the egg type of thing? Like we talk about things things succeed and then is it because we talked about it or because we have You know a higher than average call ratio. It's probably because It's really gonna bake your noodle later. Would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything? Yeah Indeed. Um, and so I uh, so we wanted to to push against Um The standard narrative which is to say that um, like the broken thing is the thing Um, like that you should be taking Um, because in fact, um, and as people have kind of joked with me before like most of the time the lists that I talk about on our show Um, aren't the lists I actually gravitate towards so like the really powerful things are often not the things that I take Um And for me, there's a reason there's a couple different reasons for that But uh, so we want to just kind of push against The standard narratives of like what is like the go-to choice for example um phoenix card Right, like everybody's like phoenix card phoenix card phoenix card Um, and I'm gonna talk about a city's list today that doesn't have phoenix card I also happened to do we didn't talk before we made our list We just went off and and made three like interesting different lists and we both made a city's list So there you go. That's that's when without phoenix card without phoenix card. Yes. I have zero in mine either Mine is really off the wall though. So, you know, sure I mean, it's yeah I went I went all in on on wacky time adventure um the um The yeah, I agree like to me there's a lot of fun by the way, too In in playing a bit of that kind of counter meta or off kilter or slightly non-metallist. This is a thing you've done every year No, I'm not here. I'll ask you what you what you say Oh, that's your you had your daughters. Let's ask you went you went straight in You were right in the pocket running filth hagnar But many of the two years before that you were very much doing this I was but and even this year like I I We locked into hagnar before the book was out or not hagnar, but we locked into daughters before the book was out so like um Yeah, like I didn't change. I just didn't realize how mainstream it would become um so uh yeah, um But uh, but I I often go for off um For abnormalists, uh, and part of the reason is because in addition to like I think there's power in those other areas um But there's also value in not doing the thing that everybody knows about Oh, sure. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. So like when I go to a tournament I will have thought in any list that I've created. I will have thought what do I do when I play slinash What do I do if I run against hagnar daughters? What do I do if I run against? Ida neth eels Yep And like so I will have ran through all the standard armies and have a have a response to those scenarios Right. Sure. But like if somebody rolled up on me with like, um With something very counter meta not one of the things you would consider like night haunt I'd be like, okay. So how does this work again? Right? Sure. You can't just deploy one of your standard strategies, right? Right because like there it's not gonna be it's not gonna be the thing that I expect right and so, um So there's value in doing the not normal thing Yeah, absolutely. And by the way, that's true at all levels of sort of the the the table Yes, there are some expert players who really really really know every army and every unit and every synergy But even against, you know, you're even against your more elite players being something they haven't played 30 times before being something they're only familiar with the rules on and have maybe played once Yeah, still has value right because it's easy to forget things and by the way This happens like this is gonna happen left right and center with things like Uh, and you see this all the time when books just come out and rules are new You saw this on the stream games, uh for the honest wargamer with people running ironson stuff And like people forgetting that ironsons can charge you in your charge phase Which is like the most Powerful ability It's so powerful. They're like, nope. You stay there Yeah, because how often tom have you moved a unit up to like Some number of inches away But not charged just to chaff them for the next turn right like you have a unit on an objective You move a chaff line up and you put them in the way, right? Okay, well, that doesn't work against iron jaws and ironsons, right because they're just gonna like Okay, fine. I'll just charge your chaff wall and clear it now on your turn Thanks. Thanks for giving me the free kill right um So like that kind of stuff is what'll catch people out Um, obviously iron jaws is not a counter meta pick not anymore. They are here and for real son They got they got real real, uh, and that was a great final game watching them steamroll slanesh By the way, iron jaws beats slanesh in game five on the honest wargamer. So clearly everything's fine. Um But no, I mean it was a good game and very well played by leo who did a great job with his jaws Like using all those abilities in in really like really really smart ways. I loved watching those plays I will also say it was in heish and they had like the speed of light Commandability, which is a really great like equalizer against slanesh Slanesh if if slanesh isn't running invaders super command point time adventure. Yay Because like I've I've played that in a tournament where I end up in heish with that and let me tell you what Go ahead all you want like you're you're going to move yourself back to normal And I'm going to go first right because I'm going to I have enough command points to just when I'm at 11 command points I'll outspend you Sure Sure. So there you go I agree rally and I agree completely you got a couple weeks and we're back on the menu. Um So, uh, the Uh, I think that's why this is fun So let's jump right into some lists and then at the end Well, we're going to go through these six lists and then I want to have a conversation about Just some other elements out there too, right? Because there there are some other ones that we don't have full list of support but just kind of like little power pairs or or list nodules list nougat the creamy center of the list but not the whole list All right, shall we Sure. All right. So let's begin with your night haunt list to do That is now up on the screen and our Our viewers can't see it or they will see it in just a moment once the The thing catches up. So this is a night haunt 2k. This is one you've been a fan of for a while Yeah, like I've been waiting like I had this one in the hopper for the last ghb If like depending on how points change and it kind of they changed in my favor Yep, sure. Um, and so this is one that like I have In what I'm considering for future like events um And you know it's in So tom Where did tom go? Tom has left the call. All right, folks.  I'll all vamp while tom's gone and I'll talk about his ghosty list here uh tom loves his night haunt and for a long time. He's been talking about this kind of a death writers list uh, and Uh, this is finally that thing Oh, that's awesome.  He just texted me that an automatic update decided to install So since that might take him a minute, I'm going to go to one of my lists. All right Let's do that. I'll start from the opposite side And I'll talk for a moment since we lost tom And I actually use a real program not this nonsense. Tom puts his lists in just randomly Scrawling down things on Word or whatever tom's doing Uh, okay, so I'm going to talk about my slaves to darkness list, uh, with his intelligence And why I like this so much and by the way, I think this list will only get more interesting, uh, when the Uh, when the std book comes out in a month and a half or whatever All right, so a much a much has been made of the, um Uh, much has been made of the bone daddy's ability to have very high armor and or you know, very tough saves And, uh, this is the thing I've always loved about zinchi slaves to darkness So this is uh, this is my zinch slaves to darkness list And I think this is actually a pretty haas fun list with a lot of uh, interesting capabilities So just kind of I'll talk it through here real quick. We got our ks lord on demonic mounts We got our ks lord on foot who's got the thermal rider cloak So he's actually fast enough to keep up with everything We've got a ks orc lord and sail the faithless. I'll talk about what these what these years are going to do in a minute Got 10 cast nights five cast nights a big 40 pack of marauders So we've got bodies a big a big giant screen or a big pack of bodies to sit on stuff You know, whatever we need to do Constring them out and have some of the models attached to one objective and some of the models attached to the other one We can we can use those 40 to spread them way out and block part of the board against ambushing and blocking and stuff like that We've got a fiver of warriors and a tenor of warriors We got a war shrine We got three zangor sky fires because I like a little bit of range support to pick out a little problem Or to remove some unstick somebody. They're also quite fast and we've got an extra command point um so What are our so what are the sort of things going on here that I really like The important part to understand is that This whole army all of your your your main troops that is to say like your warriors and your knights And uh, your your many of your lords Are running around with a yes, tom. I know. Thank you He I've told him before that when he does that it's gonna It's gonna pop up on screen Okay so, uh The all these guys are on pretty decent saves and Hold on to answer tom Like all these guys are on pretty decent saves They've all got a five up against mortal wounds because of their chaos shields And they have a lot of capabilities to reroll saves So that is to say maybe sometimes it's reroll ones. Maybe sometimes it's reroll all for example the war shrine can Put out a buff to let people reroll all saves So you can take your tenor of chaos knights and they can actually become a nice Quick mobile anvil so you can charge them in pin somebody down give them reroll saves and then they're like four of rerolling Uh with a five up against mortals pretty nice and decent uh Like I I don't hate that at all uh the Chaos lord on demonic mount himself Uh, these guys already and the lord of chaos They already have sort of built in Uh save rerolls a bit save a reroll abilities Which is pretty awesome. Like this army is just all about being durable. It's a it's a fun take on on zinch because um Because you don't normally see you don't normally think of zinch as like the super durable force But like the chaos lord on demonic mount already has a reroll to all saves And he already has a You know a five up save against Uh mortal wounds pretty great Yes, you could so somebody had mentioned like you might want to put an ethereal amnit on the chaos lord on demonic mount It's to me. It's over investing in him. I don't care that much if he dies Like his command ability is cool because it get it turns that it makes the knights hit on two up Which is great and lets them reroll charges, which is also good, but if he dies is not the end of the world He's tough enough My real thing that I want to have happen is I need the lord of chaos to stay with them because the lord of chaos His zinch uh his zinch power is reroll save rolls of one and he can just go ahead and broadcast that out, right?   Sorry.  Like I love that they change that guy.  Is that what you're doing? I am. Okay. That's fine. People can't see you anyway So we'll go to your list in a moment. I'm just I'm doing my zinch slaves to darkness list Yep You've got sale to toss people around all of these slaves to darkness units can be thrown around by sale Very useless when you can start to run around cast knights The sorg lord has all sorts of reroll one shenanigans one that he can do automatically and one that he can cast out of a spell Which I like quite a bit Uh And of course the sky fires are just there to like If something's got a wound left or there's a hero they can just pop them off the table So there you go. That's what it is. It ends up being like a really grindy attrition based Uh zinch list of course you're in zinch allegiance. So you still like your sorg lord gets to pick off of the um Sale should technically be an ally by the way.  So Yeah, there you go So I think it's a fun list Um, and you know 10 cast knights if you don't there's a couple other versions of this list by the way There's other things you can mess around with Uh, so for example, you could uh add in like right now in 2000 even but there's lots of little changes you could make like you could um ally in some furries right and uh You could use those as mobile pin and retreat chaff because furries are just chaos skinks Um, so those are pretty cool like another good like Great chaff unit that when you know, they get chosen to activate they can just retreat Uh, and actually quite immune by the way to the iron sun's counter charge Right because iron suns will charge them at the end of your charge phase And you'll just retreat back a few inches when you activate your guys And then you'll rob their ability to fight. So it's actually quite a fun thing Well, like if they charge they still get to pile in even if they're if you're out of combat, but yeah Yeah, sure. Sure. Oh, it doesn't matter. You can back up enough. Like sure. Let them come forward three inches I don't care. Yeah, like I would the key is you just go back 4.1 inches Sure, right like most most of their units have a one-inch reach. So yes, enjoy moving forward Nothing happened. Right like okay Um, I just realized that you had knocked off my image there. You need to put back up the little little thing. There it is um Yeah, so I think this is just a nice mix the furies would be a fun addition Uh, you know, there's other interesting zinchi heroes You could also use here since you're in zinchi legions Like I don't have the curse laying or people like that But there's lots of lots of different twists on this you can take with your hero selection But I wanted to really focus on like being able to buff the warriors the knights Make them be able to get in and just become these anvils There's other things you could do that could also up your number of cast warriors If you want like a block of 15 or 20 so they're much more resilient because if you get like 20 cast warriors re-rolling all saves With a five up against mortals. They're actually pretty darn hard to shift, right? It's 40 wounds. That's pretty hard to move. So yeah There you go. That's my list lots of ways to that there's lots of changes you can do to it And I think it's still very much works, but There you go All right, Tom, would you like to go back to talking about your knight hunt now that you're back with us? Yeah, sorry about that. Um, I had a An install that decided it had to be re in it had to be installed You need to shut those off by the way when you know the automating I quick like uh, check it with me in an hour or so. I thought and it was like installing an hour Then so it forced install Um Okay, so death riders, um, I we've both been uh, you've been a proponent of death riders longer than I have Um, but we've both been uh proponents of death riders. Um, and so this is basically an all-in-death riders list Yep, um for those that don't know knight haunt Have a have an ability that they gain um We if you all attend a charge, um, most people don't know this because almost all of the quote knight haunt lists They're running against our legion grief. Uh, but actually knight haunt you all attend a charge you get to pile in Those are very strange statement people know that that's the basic ability of knight haunt It just doesn't often happen when people see ghosty boys on the table because they've either been an lol or legion of grief. Yes Sure indeed um and so uh What death riders does is it gives the entire battalion plus one to charge And it moves that target number from of the of the double pile in Piling in at the end of the charge phase by the way, which means that they get their um Like all the like start of the combat phase turn stuff. They like preempt that with this You'll also go before you can be like locust and stuff If you if it's your turn right because your end of charge phase stuff will happen first. Yes. Yep. Um, and then And so they're doing all this on a nine everybody that's in the battalion um And so the core of this army is basically two blocks of 10 hex race and a black coach Um that have a pretty high mobility and we're going to talk about this. Um, they're um on base. They're not like super uh They're not like super optimized as the unit like hex race hat are um are not uh the best unit like i'm not gonna I'm not going to uh to paint a picture where they're just beautiful. Um, but they are four attacks a model And um, and when you get plus one to attack they double benefit from that perk Because both the horse and the rider are getting plus one to attack And so for example, I have a vampire lord in here. So 10 block Quickly goes jumps to 60 attacks with half of those doing mortals on sixes um And then with the ability to double pile in gives me a decent chance of of um of Popping 120 attacks off of a 10 tenor of a pex race No, hold on. No, ryan in in death riders It turns the 10 unmodified to a nine unmodified. That's the advantage of it and the mathematical difference of that is massive massive Averages and the the reason like stuff like cogs is stuff is still there It's because you still want to land those charges, right? Like why now you want to hit and i'm going to talk about this because What this list it sells at is mobility, right? It doesn't look like a lot and it and it will fold if you just play it as a straight set up in charge But that's not what it is Because in addition to the plus one charge and i'm getting from the italian Obviously, I have cog for another plus two charge And so i'm still only triggering on natural rolls of nine or like, uh, like Yeah, natural rolls of nine, but um Your landowner charge on a nine inch charge is on sixes And the advantage here for those that have played night haunt is um the combination of the dread blade hero Which um at the start of every movement phase you can pick them up and put them in it down anywhere else on the table Like every turn um and both of these in fact you can do that with Nine inches away, but yes, so they can really just redeploy they can reset up somewhere else nine inches Yeah, so the two heroes redeploy one of them being the general you spend a command point We've talked about this synergy before you spend a command point allows you to pick up any other unit Of night haunt off of wherever there's a table. It can be in combat. It could be doing whatever You can pick it up and redeploy it around the uh the hero farther than nine from the enemy. Yep Um for a command point And so basically the hero has the ability to pick up any unit on the table and redeploy it around him And so every turn I have the option of picking up the hero and putting him where I want and then redeploying a unit around it Um And then just set up for another charge and so functionally it gives me a retreat and charge an army that does not actually have that Um, well, and there's a there's so much a bigger psychological impact to that I want everybody to really contemplate what has just been described So every turn that that every it's it's during your turn. Yes, like yeah during my turn Yeah, yeah every movement phase you have you have the ability to pull your general in a unit Well, no, I I will move. I will always move two heroes no matter what at no cost, right? Right? Yes, they The but specifically the threat here is like you're getting your hero Who is probably your general but maybe maybe not right one of those guys and a unit Up and just anywhere on the board. This just keeps happening Yeah, right And they're going to then run around and land charges on sixes like in the the more Objectives there are like the amount of space that the opponent then has to be trying to block off and screen They're going to have openings like armies can't Completely screen themselves. It's really hard all the way in like especially in spread out objective games, right? If you've got five six eight objective missions, this is a nightmare Right literally night on a nightmare. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Uh and with that like so the ability to just pick up 30 or chain rafts and set them out nine inches On a on a seven charge. Um, they won't be out. They won't have the six charge, but um, or you know 12 banshees You know buffed by vampire lord are going to do a lot of damage And like the one interesting thing about this teleport and move is like it's not limited to one unit So if I have multiple command points, um, I can teleport multiple units So that's also an option. I can I don't have to pull one unit. I can pull multiple units And there's a lot of regen here as well So like replacing so I'll be replacing whole hex wraith models Both from the black coach and then also from the black coach the vampire lord and from the the heroes Like the general's command ability So like if you don't kill out those hex wraiths, I'll likely just teleport them away and refill them, right? Um And uh, the other hero carries the pendant of the fell wind And the reason why I put that on him originally it was either the spell book Or the pendant and what I like about the pendant is um, that lets me teleport him wherever I want on the table And give any other unit plus three move, right? So if I'm not going to move a unit I can just move the the pendant of the fell wind near another unit And if they're near the pendant of the fell wind at the start of their uh, at the start of their movement Which is to tell what's happening at the beginning of the movement phase. Um, they're going to aim plus three movement They're also going to gain plus two movement from the cogs Right. Um, and so like whatever their moves are i'm an increased movement by five here Which should also be stated that then you have a much easier ability to make your hex wraiths Like when they have plus five to move to just like run over people and do their little burn thing Well and still then charge them or whatever right just stuff like that becomes actually possible The whole like hex hex wraiths, you know run over people and do damage or whatever It's just not used to that very often. It's just not one. It's not super good But it too It's just actually very hard to execute because they just don't have enough move to actually do that But when you give them an extra like five inches of movement All of a sudden that actually becomes quite doable, right? Yep So why not splash some extra mortals before you then charge them Hopefully fight them at the end of your charge phase and and on and on and on, right? Yep, and um, like the grave tide's there just to gum up the battlefield Right to put body you put things on the table the maelstrom's there because I had 10 points and I have a pretty painted one um for night haunt um And so like this is just a lot of mobility and a lot of tricksy-ness and I can bubble wrap and I can deploy off the table Like if you have I'm facing a really ridiculous gunline I'll backboard my army, which does not hinder my army at all because remember I'm going to be teleporting Half of my army will backboard the other half of the army will just set up off table Right Yeah, the goal here is to have like serif on levels of just repositioning units, but but even more so, right? Yeah, but with actual punch with actual punch, right? Exactly, right? Yep. Um, yeah So it's um, it's a fun little night haunt list it plays in the you know in the um the activation awards It has soul cage And so it has an option in that world Eighth or croat quartz brooch obviously is to try to get some of those command points back because it's going to be a command point heavy army um Yeah, I mean it's just a nice, um It's I think it at all for some really interesting options um And I think it can be competitive in the right hands Um, and it's not going to play like it doesn't matter what you think it plays like it's not like when you experience it It's not going to be what you're expecting. Yeah, sure It's a very or it's very orthogonal to like how people expect armies to kind of move and act And I think there's a lot of power in that. Yes Yep, agreed. All right. Cool. We'll go back and forth. So I'll do another list now. Yep All right. So, uh, I want to talk about clan scryer um I feel like I feel like clan scryer has some interesting potential an important part about my list is that like these didn't have a Tremendous amount of thought so there's definitely room to improve on them So consider these all like advisory and you make your own changes Uh, but at any rate in the last general's handbook a lot of the, um The like warp cog stuff got cheaper because it was just previously like priced into the stratosphere So the general's handbook did two things that I thought made a pure scryer army kind of fun and interesting again okay The first was it gave us, uh You have better prices on the warp cog complication. Okay. And the second thing it did was give us the uh mercenaries Sure, sure And one of the big problems of scryer is that they have a a body's problem, right? Yep So instead we're gonna get some chaos marauders. Of course you are. Yeah, boy. Yeah, boy Uh, so here we have a Dargo the war queen I took the queen just because whatever you take you can take either either one because you have to take either the war queen Or the or the war chief doesn't really matter. They're both terrible And uh, you have to take then the units of marauders, right? And uh So that's that's my allies. But what I did here is I went for the gas cloud and the uh, and the arch spark I by the way, autumn I very much thought about a moldar list too I just tryer is closer to my heart I'll I'll talk about moldar a little bit because I think you could do the same thing with moldar I think there is a a flesh meld menagerie out there. That's that's also fun But at any rate, I like the tricks this one has So, um Basically, we've got sort of a uh, a very cheap arch spark voltic Which is the one that turns your warp lightning cannon and a bomb and a bombardier. You only need one lightning cannon to fill it Uh, but it makes it so that thing just is hot death, right because you can roll 12 dice and you get minus one Yep, to what you roll. So a full third of your shots are potential 12 mortals, right? Yep Uh, and then you've got the gas cloud which gives you Uh, a really nice ability on storm fiends with wind launchers, which is obviously what we're doing Um, as well as the acolytes and the nice part about gas cloud is it is your battle line inscrier Because it's two units of acolytes and a unit of storm fiends which are all battle line inscrier, right? And uh, you know what you've got here, and then we've got bridge which could come out of any of our casters, right? Because I think bridge is essential to move around like the acolytes or to move around the storm fiends or whatever just get things repositioned Uh, and yeah, you've got your marauders to screen now. This still has a body's problem It certainly does like you just you know, it is what it is With this, but I think it made the list more interesting because at least I can get a nice pack of 40 on the table Um, there are some minor changes you could do this by the way to make it, uh, a 20 and a 20 as well If you wanted to go that direction Um, so there are there are other things you can do.   I went back and forth Actually, somebody said they like warp lightning shield more on the arch warlock I went back and forth a lot again. Yeah, I could see that like warp lightning shield is a bit interesting Chain warp lightning is horrendously underwhelming. I don't disagree. It's just I I took one of the two I I the the shield has a list right yeah, um It has it has like a it It has a limit and it can blow your dude up if you're not careful But then everything in scryer blows up if you're not careful. So who cares? But yes, that's the same reason I gave the arch warlock ignaxus scales because he's already on quite a good save Like he is a you know dudes in power armor So, I mean he's rolling around a three up normally four up against mortals actually makes him quite quite tough, right?  So that's that's my scryer list. I think it's fun. I think it's interesting that the warp cog is back on the table I think things like the bridge the marauder mercenaries and The drop of those points makes this an interesting list storm feeds are in there. They're right there six six storm fiends 520 points Who boy are those guys expensive? A lot of people have been doing heavy heavy storm fiends recently Um, and they've been and they've been removing Pieces a lot of people have been complaining about them at the big events in the uk Sure. I mean, I think storm fiends are pretty solid like obviously I would go for the you know the sort of wind launcher one melee You know kind of build like I think that's the the the wind launcher gun One melee build. I think that's the right answer Um, but I mean these guys are they're so expensive and they're a dangerous piece if they get removed If you know if you if you let them get exposed like I said everything in this army is writing a knife edge If you let it get if you if you if it gets exposed and you're not like Absolutely aware of what's happening. Uh, you're gonna get your stuff blown up I will say the big downside of this army is it is very susceptible to the double turn So, you know be thinking about that Uh, shooting armies normally are sure sure absolutely this one even more so because it's a it's a very glass canony shooting army So but there you go all right uh And yes, as always if you like different command traits or artifacts or anything like that season to taste That's the paprika that goes on in the end All right, uh Let's talk about tom your other list, which is fire slayers, but calm down everybody calm down All right tom explain to us why a fire slayers list Is off meta I already yelled at him for this before we started, but i'm willing to let this go. All right talk to me So because i'm still seeing 15 hearth guard berserkers here tom Sure, but what you're not seeing is you're not seeing lords with lodge and you're also not seeing 30 blocks Got it. Uh, or you're not seeing like three 15 blocks like I've also seen you know or um Or what was it 30 10 10 that that jack took this last weekend or something. Um And so what I so I went with um something what I consider off meta Um, I haven't seen anything like this place. Well anywhere. Um, I took this to a local I did some local games with it and I've I've performed fairly well with it um And so let's just talk about the the core of what's here So forge rutheran makes up the backbone of this battalion. It has a rune smiter in it It has three units of five or a hearth guard The neat interesting ability that the battalion grants is that um at the start of the enemy hero phase so Um at the start of your enemy's turn You can choose one of your units within 18 inches of one of these are a court or a hearth guard units And give one of your units uh plus one to save okay And so and then in this last until your next hero phase So that means if you get doubled you you're actually going to have a floating plus two at the units that need That save bonus by the way is not um contingent on fire slayer units It's any of your units in your army, which means that allies can benefit from it as well. We'll talk about that um And so uh and then or a hearth guard actually like um They're really good shooters They benefit from your runes and they're on fours and threes um against uh monsters like you know keepers of secrets They're um, they're ten attacks do two damage each So they're four threes neg one rend one damage two damage against monsters um And so they're just a really and so they they serve a dual purpose of both shooting support and Anti monster while buffing They also if you guys don't know or a hearth guard If they're near one of your heroes for fire slayers a foot hero, they will intercept hits on a four plus And then the hearth guard unit will take that damage Meaning that all of these foot heroes the smiter the rune master and the battle smith all um are like Functionally have 12 12 wounds instead of six Because they like the the hearth guard can absorb that some of those hits right um With this I also have um uh supporting uh So then I have the uh hearth guard berserker block the 15 block pretty standard Um, I'm really hot on like 15 hearth guard berserkers right because it's not too much It's not too unwieldy and yet it's just pure murder Um, and so like if anything gets into combat, this is hermdar, which means that I have like I can spend a command point and strike first being in combat um So like whatever they get into a fight with if I'm afraid that they may take significant damage, I'll just fight first um with that I also have a and so they have a base uh save of of uh They are sorry. Let me pull it up real quick. It's uh, they're a base uh save um of five and But you got to remember so the uh battle smiths are going to project a plus one save Right um hit like so he projects a 12 inch bubble of plus one save Um, I also have a plus one save sitting in my prayers And I can pull plus one save or possibly plus two save from um My rune smiter so it's like it's not impossible to move even my hearth guard berserkers to like a two plus four plus um If I pop my uh My forge they go to two up reroll ones if I need them to um Likewise the woke up berserkers run of fives a four plus um In melee and then they can benefit from any of these save bonuses And so like wherever I need save bonuses wherever the fighting is going on I have two very hard blocks that can take hits um And then on top of all that I have this is the secret sauce here is the nine engine rigors um because Uh, they're amazing. They do everything that you need them to do in this army Um because when they have the the three athermatics So they don't have the droke anons, but they have the three athermatic guns, which are the the 24 inch six shot guns right um, which means that uh There I have 18 shots at 24 inches And the other six models then have a collective 18 shots at 12 inches um And so like if I they these guys have a 12 inch move so that I can move them I have a 24 inch threat on my range, which means on all of my range Um, which means that I have like uh 36 shots Um hit most of it hitting on either threes or fours wounding on fours neg one rend Um, and so I have a quite a bit of punch that I they can put in and shooting and they're mobile So I can get them to objective something that fire slayers can't do Um, I if I get them into combat they have seven attacks at you know They still have saws seven attacks threes and twos neg two rend d three damage Um, and I can push their save to to to a two plus Because all the armor saves buff the uh buff allies in this army nice um, not the battle smith but the both the the forge brethren and the prayer of ash And then finally, uh the runic firewall to gum up the board to give reroll saves of one Because uh, I I will want that reroll saves and then also if you have a small unit, um of like 32 mil bases within um Uh with like on base to base with the firewall They can't be targeted by spells or range because of the wording on the firewall So you can completely hide like like cut off all line of sight Even if there seems to be direct line of sight to even any of my heroes on objectives because of this Nice because of the way rune rune uh the runic firewall works. Sure. Oh, yeah, I mean, it's uh, it's uh One of the things that this army struggles with is units like just like objective holding units And what this allows me to do is to lay down, you know, like Or a hearth guard in my back field to zone and hold objectives push for these two very large blocks back by a high mobility unit Um and it like I can deep strike anything that I want So if I you know because I have that smiter if I want a deep strike Um, so I can put 20 volkites in your back field or I can put the hearth or berserkers or whatever So there's just a lot of flexibility to it despite the fact that um firesliders in general have struggled with like mobility Have struggled with uh, like objective holding units and stuff like that Yeah, nice All right, dig it. So the next one is my most experimental of lists It needs a lot of work, but it's fun So I think there's potential here, but I wanted to just kind of talk about some elements that I think are interesting This one's called living city madness Okay All right So we have an assassin that's our general Okay The assassin as a general makes shadow warriors battle line and dark writers battle line right and He's and then he has an anointed following him around as his adjutant, right? Okay Uh So that way because we want the command point thing We this is like command point command point command point stuff So we got a fiber of dark writers for fast chaff and then we got a three by ten of shadow warriors And I love shadow warriors a lot in their new form. I don't think I need to state again Why I think shadow warriors are good, right? Obviously one of the powers of living city is that after things shoot you can command point them to go move, right? And they can pop away Yeah Uh, so then we've got three scourge runner chariots Getting that sweet horror discount on the chariots that can also shoot and then move Which by the way for them is like a heck of a lot of movement because they're very fast Okay And their shooting is decent enough And we've got three gyrocopters Uh who can also shoot and then move away Which actually like the steam guns on gyrocopters are really really really powerful against low armor hordes All right But the problem is is that to get that steam gun in enough range to actually do a thing Right.  Got it. I'm talking about moving after you shoot Got it. Okay. So you're saying you move up and then you can run away. Yeah. Yeah, exactly I'm using it for what it's I think supposed to be used for which is to like Fade or whatever the ability I know in our first discussion of this every talk of it was like You know moving up dirt through and hitting them and then charging them on a six or whatever, right?  That's what it's, you know, like hit them and hit them harder Like that's what it's for, right? Yeah I wanted to actually explore like what you could do with just It reminds me of how wonders like what you know, what elves I guess it would be You know way back in the day used to play where they were just a very frustrating force Because they would constantly be very mobile and just have this high mobility and run around And actually like gyrocopters very much fill that role because they can sort of steam gun the the living bejesers out of a horde And and again like to relatively low armor hordes They do an outrageous amount of damage. Okay, right, right and then they can just zip away 16 inches Yeah, like that could very easily pull them out of that hordes range to to get to in any, you know Or if they do they've got a way commit to it, right? So like sure. Let's let's imagine it's like a six inch move thing Right, you fired from three inches Okay, you move away 16.  I actually want to play more with like gyrocopters in living city And like really see about a complete smash and grab list, but this was a fun inclusion to just like give Uh to give some options for it, right? Yeah Um The um Yeah, oh, yeah, you can't fade by the way that that's a good call, uh, Daniel You can't fade if you're within nine inches of nine inches of the enemy Oh, does that mean nine inches away? Yeah I thought yeah, I thought you just had to be out of combat with them. I have to go look at it again Okay, fair enough I don't have the book right in front of me At any rate the chariots can do it the shadowers can do it the dark writers can do it Um at any so that's all good gyrocopters. That's fine They can just be sacrificial or you could give them their other guns and that's cool too Uh, then they could do it too My ambushing thing here is three lumen arcs of heich You you really like this idea? I do. I really do. Uh, it's funny to me Uh in a lot of ways like first of all, there's a lot of units in this army, right? Yeah, like I very much went for uh for an msu thing Yeah, and that was intentional because I wanted to have lots of options for Keep what I could keep for sort of half my army Whatever whatever's an ambush, whatever's not, you know that kind of thing, right? Yep um So there's and I bought the extra command point because uh, I want to be able to strike and melt away a lot. Um the The advantage here is that What I'm what I'm going to do is this is this is the old laser beam strike. This is the akira strike Yeah, the only thing I really need to have an ambush is those three lumen arcs or even two of the lumen arcs, right? So I can I can mix and match But they all march on the board Uh on the side This is especially deadly when people set up on a line horizontally A good player is going to know that you have this capability by the by And just try to disperse their forces great to minimize. Yeah. Yeah, great. Okay. Cool Like I don't care I I still accomplished a goal there, you know what I mean? And then I can just I can just bring those lumen arcs on from anywhere I want And I'm still going to put three laser beams through one or two characters that I absolutely want dead And incidentally get a couple other units And get a ton of mortal wounds on those things, right? Like if I can get your whole army with that 30 inch beam because you didn't pay any attention and set up wrong That's a giant win, but even if I made you set up poorly Right because you tried to screen me out completely and took your things and you couldn't set up on the line And you want to become uh fast and so on and so forth Um That's a win. That's a win exactly And yeah, there's a there's a there was a question here that I knew was going to be asked that I'll that I'll answer Which is if half the units in your living city army is shadow warriors assassins Could you start with no units on the battlefield and the answer is no because living cities isn't half your units It's one for every unit on the board and and that's right Um and and that's absolutely correct, right? So I'm not I'm not trying to do like a null deployment here. Everybody just let's be super clear, right? I I gave myself enough msu that I can do things like take the lumen arcs off and still set the shadow warriors up and that's fine Right um because the assassin will be off. Let's say I put some shadow warriors off. I still need to have enough things on the board Yeah, so six go on five go off is the general way this works, right? And what those five are can vary Um Yeah So there you go. That's the list I missed the I apologize everybody that I missed the you had to be nine inches away on the melting fade for the gyrocopter We'll shoot darn it all I'll I still think they're a solid pick. I love them in this list.  Yeah, you got a lot of different d3 mortal wound splashes happening The 30 long beards are the final part because I completely believe in 30 long beards Like I think they're outrageously good for 270 points right now They don't need to be fast. They just need to be 30 tough little stunties to go stand on objectives Right and they have all the chaff in the world. I have I have nothing but chaff in this army There's just chaff upon chaff upon chaff, right? So there you go. That's the army Uh could clearly use some refinement. This is my first take on it as tom will know, you know, it's list list Especially off-middle list building is a lot about like constant refinement movements is my first take But I think there's a core of a really good idea here of just like playing an old school Wood Elf strike and fade type of army where you've got just a lot of command points And uh, and you're using it to constantly move things way out of range, right? Yeah Chariots moving and popping things and then zooming way back far again Uh shadow warriors popping up and being successive chaff rows that kind of stuff So just you're you're constantly boxing and stopping their movement from getting where they want to be While you take objectives with other stuff in the background Okay So laser beams go. All right, tom you went for a you also had a city's army to finish off on and uh, you know, everybody's running around Talking about phoenix guard talking about how the dwarves got the short shrift or whatever whatever In the in cities and you and I both strongly disagree with this, right? Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that I think that dwarf lists or mixed dwarf lists are Arguably some of the most powerful lists in cities Yeah, I don't see a lot of people talking about the power that dwarves got In the new book and I think there's a lot of hot picks in here I already talked about why I think long beard just so good Right. No, I didn't I didn't have the units to like fully turn them on because I can't they're grumbling can't affect other nearby Units and stuff like it can in yours, but they can still eat endless spells in my list. Yeah They're so good, but anyway, take us through this because I think this is just like Shockingly good for a bunch of stunties Uh, so let me start with so vince and I were were I was list crafting and throwing lists at him And it was like a very standard like hollow heart like mixed elf list And and I said that was boring Well, and he was looking at it. He's like, yeah, yeah, but this and this and this and this and then I threw a dwarf list at him He's like, whoa left turn um and uh But I think that there's some gas here. So let me talk about it This is a variant of my mixed dwarf list So like I ran a couple years ago mixed order list It was just a bunch of dwarves and this is like my updated version of that But with all the new tech And so let me talk about Like I'm real big into power bears. We've talked about this And so let's talk through what we have in this army We have a warden king for those that don't know the warden king He Is a nice, uh, like durable little Dwarden Six wounds three up save He has the ability to um if he chooses not to move he broadcast an 18 inch, uh, battle shock immunity bubble Um And in this army, I've given him the hawkeye trait from tempest eye Which uh nets him a uh, he projects also a plus one to wound bubble for uh ranged attacks So you can already begin to guess where this guy's sitting in the on the battlefield um And the other thing that's with this guy is he um his new command ability It used to be like choose an enemy all enemy or all your units get plus one to wound against that enemy unit No longer. Uh, this one now is choosing a unit. Uh, I spent a command point Uh all your dispossessed units gain plus one attack against that enemy unit Um in melee but plus one attack. So that's pretty good. Um Um The uh rune lord, uh Everybody knows what the rune lord does the rune lord the most pious of all priests because his stuff goes on two up It all goes on two ups no mortal wounds on ones. Um, he can increase the rend of one of any of the dwarf units. Um I mean that's good. It's it's really good Um, he has the six up ward save that he can hand out if he doesn't want to do the rend which I almost never do and then um What really matters now is that he packs a um a free unbind and dispel at plus two. Yeah, he does Um, and so just every every hero every one of your hero phases. He can he can get rid of a endless spell plus two We'll talk about that. Um, and then the aether chemist. Um, everybody knows the the chaos chemist. Um here the chemist this aether chemist is running around with a thermal writer cloak So that he can keep up with his power pair everybody's favorite cloak Everybody's favorite cloak. Exactly. Um, his power pair obviously is with the nine skywardens here I've done the athermatics and the drills So I they're gonna have 18 shots at 24 inches. Oh like I talked about with the end and rigors They're also gonna have uh eight drill. I'm sorry. I'm sorry six drill attacks um And what's interesting about this combo is that uh, well, let me jump back up So the hurricanum is obviously going to be out there as well Everybody knows hurricanum bubble plus one to hit projecting a bubble around it Um, and the ore of glorie spell either him or the ger battle mage can project a plus one attack Uh melee attack bubble around them. Yep So Let's talk about what this ends up looking like. Um, that means that all of my shooters Have plus one to hit plus one to win And all of my melee guys if they're within the bubble have plus one to hit and then plus one or plus two attacks Yep, um, and uh The skywardens one of the interesting synergies here is that um because they're included in The cities they gain the city's keyword. They can actually pick up a plus wound buff. They haven't been able to do that yet Which means that until their war scrolls updated they can splash mortals on fives instead of sixes Yep Because they it's six or six plus for their gun splashing mortals. Um, so six attacks splashing mortals on fives. I'll take that um The other interesting synergies here. I also have a ger battle mage For the plus two to run run in charge buff And where this really hit where the rubber meets road here, obviously is the soul screen bridge Um, we've talked about the soul screen bridge and how just sexy it is Um, especially with shooting Um, and what it allows me to do with all this small base shooting that I have is Basically push forward in whatever direction that I want with the bridge That plus one to cast from either the battle the hurricane or the girl battle mage If I hit my um, if I just I can come out and teleport a bunch of shooters Those iron drakes are going to be on twos and twos In this army, uh neg one to hit since they don't move Since setting up is not a move. They're also going to be at two attacks a model So each of those ten iron drakes has 20 attacks at twos and twos And uh, I can get uh, re-roll ones to hit from um From the generic command ability, so um, yeah, they're really good. Um, the uh, the hammers Are a really neat punchy unit now. Um, they're also going to be at twos and twos with, um Four attacks a model when I have them buffed up At neg two rend And they're they're hitting mortals on On sixes. Yeah. Yep And also they have a native like plus one run in charge Which means that if the girl battle mage hits them on the other side of that soul screen bridge They have six in charges The long beards are the the old faithful like screen here But what's interesting is this is in temp aside, which means in turn one everything has plus one save right It puts those long beards on a two up reroll ones if I spend a command point in turn one It's a very like alpha. It's a very hard army to alpha You have very strong screens You have shooting to back it up So if it doesn't work, you're going to blow them off the table if they try to if they try to get into you And it doesn't work Which it won't by the way because like your whole army is going to be on two and three ups with multiple Like successive screens of two and three up dudes Yeah, um, they're going to just eat it because all of your shooting comes online Yeah, and at the same time Yeah, like what's going to happen is they're going to probably give you turn one right because obviously again You have lots of units the traditional problem of city's armies But if they do that you you can read okay fine You can respond well to it and you can like move out strong with that plus three to move Potentially add a plus two to run whatever whatever you can soul scream somebody out right get them reset Or I can go free basically the entire army Well, you can soul scream a lot of people Yes, because you can fit a lot of you can fit a lot of these little dudes within six inches of uh These huge chariot bases. Yeah. Yeah um And so you can you can scream out of a big section of your bridge and by the way remember the bridge goes far too way Oh, yeah, it goes 24 inches. Yes, right because because this is a city's army And even my point is whether you move your plus three inches to move with potential bonus to run Yeah, the soul scream lets you get way out. So like if they give you first turn And it's the type of scenario where The objectives can be alpha bunkered Yeah, you know that's going to happen all of a sudden you are going to have a nightmare of like Chaffy walls and big blobs of very hard to kill dwarves that are very high save Because it'll still be about around one when it passes to their turn And if they come try to peel you off that point all them long beards are still on two ups potentially re-rolling ones right like that's tough Yep, yep and backed by shooting Um, and then on top of that I have a as if you know, it wasn't bad enough I have a life swarm to re restore a d6 models um Per turn for the long beards and the hammers and iron drakes and all that other fun stuff So, um, this is a this is a swiss like army knife style army Um in in that it it has a lot of tools. It can do alpha. It can do alpha blocking It can do shooting. It can do melee Um, and it can do high rend. It can do mortal wounds um There's not a lot that it can't do right Yep. Yeah, I like this one a lot. Uh, I think this is fun Uh, I I think like it's it's It's surprising how punchy it is. It has everything I like in army That's what I didn't mention that that was the other piece of the puzzle that I had mentioned Thank you. Oh stone. Um, the other part of this that long beards changed And this is what vince was talking about about not having it pop off. Yeah Um was that now those iron the long beards project a re-roll ones to wound bubble within 12 inches of the 30 man block Yep, um, which means that all of my shooting is like for I can get all of my iron drakes on twos and twos re-roll ones on both Yeah Yeah Yeah, it's like the hitting power Or I'll go ahead and minimize our list because we're done with all our our sample list here. Oops. Tom went away. There he is Um, the hitting power is surprising, right? It's like it has everything I like in a list You have like those hammers. I mean you mentioned the stats, but like two up two up re-rolling ones neg one or two rend You know one damage mortals on sixes mortals on sixes like that is So much damage coming out of those 25 mil bases like those guys are on itty-bitty baby bases Yeah, like they're gonna get in there because you're gonna you're like 20 is my perfect sauce number two You and I talked about this like I love 20 of those guys Because I feel like that you're gonna get in many to most cases you will actually get all 20 in because you can Fight over the top the other guy's base, right? And like just that's outrageous when you consider what that boils down to right so that's that's like Yeah, it's 80 attacks You're hitting on let's be friendly college. They're on twos and threes. Sorry. They're not on twos and twos They're on twos and threes. Oh, yeah threes re-rolling ones, right? Yeah, yeah Yep, so, you know, you're you're hitting with let's say 65 fair enough Which will be very conservative. You're hitting with 65. You're wounding with Let's call it. Let's again. Let's be very conservative 40 and then and then plus 10 mortal wounds. Yeah, sure sure Yep at negative red 60 of them you're gonna have 10 of those will be sixes. Yeah, right And then that's all at negative red like yeah splat goes most anything Even things that you pilot even things that you plow into that are like on three up saves are just gonna eat it Like that is so crushing Right because in that suddenly goes to like, okay, cool. I still got almost 30 wounds in 10 mortals through Yeah, right like that's that is bone crushing effectiveness out of those little dudes Uh, so yeah, I dig them and again nothing about the buff just can't mean it's got the power It has buffs that can be placed in different units. It's got all the different power pairs You got mobile stuff. We didn't mention the skywardens too much But they're like those skywarden shooting capability their movement capability is great Right like again, and they can get in they can get stuck in You know like and those those three melee guys There's only three melee guys are still gonna have seven attacks. Right. Um, and then or or 10 attacks, um at uh with the buff threes and threes neg one d3, right Like yeah, yeah, no, I mean it's still it's still good Somebody asked about what we thought about drakespawn knights in tempest I honestly I still like they're okay I think a problem with drakespawn knights right now is they're still just a little bit too expensive Because they don't compare super favorably with demigriffs No, I I agree with that. Um, let me just say this though, uh, mike. I've actually looked at it For my one k like for a teams event coming up I looked at it for a one k tempest I basically full drakespawn list like drakespawn.  Yep, and you give him the run in charge and so all the toys Um, so he's always striking first Um, and then you have a bunch of the knights and you run everybody up the table and smash them Yeah So there might be something there if if they got a little bit cheaper. I would find them more compelling right now They only have like a two body advantage You know over like uh over demigriffs and demigriffs just have more Like they're just a harder hitting. They're a heavier hitting unit Yeah, um, if drakespawn were like 20 points cheaper, I'd probably be suddenly much more interested in them, especially in tempestine So I would do that Yeah, um, hey ghb 2020 Or or end of the year. I don't know if I don't know if cities will fall into the end of the year points update or not, but Yeah, I mean like are we are we actually doing like full on points updates? Yeah, yeah, it'll be the the winter f aq will have points updates for like everything from slanesh Or maybe fire slayers forward. I don't remember where the start point is. Whatever didn't get updated in the ghb Will come forward But like into this half year thing, but I don't I don't know where that I don't remember where that cut point was Um, I know so then I shall be in there and I fully expect the kicking Um, but the but like I don't know where the cut point is on the other side of that Right, like because I know they want to collect a certain amount of data and not have it be kind of you know Reactive reactionary. Yeah. Yeah, so I don't know if like maybe cities and uh Maybe cities and oryx are like the one that makes it in and then mottribes and OBR skate Yeah, I don't know Not sure So, uh, any other like is there any other small mentions we want to make here because like we gave some examples Obviously a lot of stuff. I don't know that there's much undervalued like when you look at destruction almost as a whole right now Yeah, uh, I think that's a lot of there's not a huge amount of armies and it's all pretty well trod territory Right, like we saw some squig lists do pretty like do interesting stuff over the weekend at bloodshed I think people are aware of that and know that like squig lists are can be Interesting, but they're dangerous again. They're glass cannons.  Everybody knows is good Uh iron jaws and bone split is obviously have gas in the in the tank Duh after their new books and like mottribes is just brand new So there's nothing underrated or overrated about them yet, right? They're just it's too new to really People haven't gotten into it yet and that's basically instruction Um same probably with death, frankly, right where like we all know what fec is capable of Here's what I would say If there's anything underrated in death. I think it's all the non gristlegore stuff in fec Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that somebody did really well over the weekend with a morgon list Okay, which you and I talked about morgon And just sort of like ghoul just like the slammin ghoul rave where it's just just ghouls for days, buddy Just multi attacking just warming the board with just tons of attacks And I think there is a lot of interest in that one I I haven't really looked deeply enough at it to know how I build that list Yeah, but I think there's definite exploration there and look Ghouls are really easy to paint I mean tom was on tom was on top tables at uh at acon last year with a morgon list Sure, most most of uh the championship. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean There's something to be said for being able to swarm the board with an outrageous amount of like very high damaging multi-attacking models. Yeah, it's an unbelievable weight of dice. They have behind them, right? The board control that they generate is outrageous Um And and and they can afford to take losses, right, right? Uh, so that would be my like sort of mini pick that I don't really I don't know enough about it to make a list out of it But I think that's my mini pick and death Um, yeah, um for chaos, uh, I'm gonna give a shout out to I think nervel has some gas You know, we talked about this a little bit before the show. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah The the beast grave guy is The beast grave guy has a a spell that at the he can hand out plus one to hit Yeah, um, and you did a little it's like you pick a unit And now you get plus one hit against that unit, right? Your people, right? Anybody attacking that unit gets plus one to hit. Yeah, and you combine that with like the um, like all of the nervel triggers Like the to hit triggers. Um, so You do the mortals on sixes. Um, you do like blakings Um, I think also with that the other you know kind of other neat tool that you can um that you can play with there is Um, I I've always thought that like the chaos lord on demonic steed Um with the chaos knights obviously is is a good play because he adds plus one to hit At least for right now until the new book comes out that could change. He was in my list I I really hope they don't get rid of that guy Um, like I don't think they will but gosh, I hope he stays around He was always like he's just a cool concept and cool model Like I fully expect the chaos sorcerer guy his steed option is gone in the new book. That's dead water Yes, it's now sorcerer lord on foot or manic or and that's what you got because those are both plastic kits Those are sticking. All right. Yep. Yep, but like I the chaos lord is uh on demonic mount as a fine cast dude But I really hope he sticks around. Um, I just think he's always I've always learned the idea It's a it's a cool sculpt. It actually held up. I've actually uh, you I made one of them before Even for fine cast. I thought he was actually pretty good because he's a big thick model Yeah, right So he was one of the better Yeah, he's hard to ruin Yeah, um, so yeah, I I agree like that grass rack dude his ability to just sort of like Wax somebody do a couple mortal wounds and then hand out plus one to hit for the for the inevitable blight king assault Yeah, right or the or the night charge with uh, the the but the mortal wound trigger. Oh, sure. Sure. Sure. Absolutely. Yep Yeah, yeah, like there's there's a lot of potential there I mean nergal's not in a super great spot, but I'm not sure there's not some interesting combinations And I'm not sure grass rack can't be a fun part of that to be like sometimes really takes a little bit of an extra power pair to make things go from like and to to to You know viable if played and piloted well, right? Now you have my attention Yes, Steve earner said that was my warlord of havoc year one. That's absolutely correct It was my that was my year one warlord of havoc where I had built like this Ridiculous base like he's because that was the year steve had limited us to a 60 mil And I had him up on a whole like diorama I think it was a 50 I I don't know what it was It was a very small base and I had him on a diorama with a chaos portal and lightning shooting out and stuff like He was way up in the air He was there you go I still like that dude a lot. Maybe that's one of the reasons I really like that zinch army Because part of it was like designed for reasons like that Uh, but I don't know. I just I like the color scheme. I like zinch. What can I say?  Any other any other mentions? We good? I think I think we covered a lot of stuff Hopefully we've given people some ideas. I think the idea is uh go out there explore Look at some other things think about some interesting ways to put power pairs together Where you still have the fundamentals like that like I mentioned the thing I loved about tom's list Was it still at all the fundamentals? Right strong mobility good anvils good chaff good hammers Yep, it was a 50. Wow boy. Did I boy did I over build that? I love it. Um Um So, you know, I think that uh I think that when you if you can check those boxes you don't have to be best in class in all of those You have to be good enough. Yeah, you just have to be like an army that's good Not great good in all four of those if piloted well Will do well Yeah, right You don't need to have the absolute best in class because oftentimes what happens is a lot of people with some of their lists end up sacrificing one or two of those things to get the best in class in one of them and And you can outplay them and you can outplay them exactly. Yep. I agree All right. Well, there we go. That brings us to the end of the show. So, uh, like I said, uh Books and stuff reviews will be coming. Don't worry. We'll be talking more tribes schedule tbd We will get to both of them. I am on the road the next two weeks So it's going to be kind of annoying. I will do what I can with guests that we can it's all kind of more difficult to schedule Uh, but I promise we will we will be talking about them and as usual we will try to go um We will try to go in depth and hopefully we'll we'll make the best use of our of the time I promise to like hopefully provide some insight into the book and be more than uh Be more than man who reads book man who reads book is valuable I'm happy man who reads book reads book. That's not what we're on about Yep Yep, but uh as it is we thank you very much for watching tom. I'll see you in less than 24 hours So we can uh, so you can get up here so we can head to uh, to holy havoc very much looking forward to everybody We're going to see there. We appreciate you watching very much Uh, no the salarie video is not this week. It's going to be way out Like sorry man Uh, I had to preach I like I mentioned I'm on the road for like the next two weeks I had to pre-record a lot of videos and I didn't have that down yet, but I promise it will be around. It's coming Uh, at any rate, thank you very much for watching as always. We appreciate it and we'll see you next wednesday Bye. Bye