Hello and welcome to the applicant webinar for the regional genomic medicine consult services funding opportunities. There we go. First, I just wanted to share a quick agenda of what we'll be covering today. First, we'll do some welcome and introductions. Then I'm going to be giving you some general information about the three different funding opportunities that we're talking about today. Then we'll specifically be talking about the RFA that is the U of 1 RFA that is, I'll give an overview on it, talk about the eligibility criteria, then we'll do questions and answers. After that, we'll then talk about these small business TARs. Again, an overview, eligibility criteria and questions and answers. The reason we're doing those separately is that we do want to make sure that if you're getting an answer, you know exactly which opportunity it applies to. So, first, for a welcome and introductions, my name is Renee Ryder and I'm the program officer for these. You can see that we also have a couple of other people joining us today. Jessica Chong is a fellow who's been working with us. She'll be answering questions in the chat and the questions and answer. And then Nephi Walton is another person here at NHGRI will be working on these funding opportunities. I have gotten some questions on whether or not this webinar is being recorded. It is being recorded. We will be posting it. It will be posted on the event page, which I put the address for the event page on this slide. But you can also just Google NHGRI e-console webinar and it is the first search result that will come up. So, if you ever want to look at the facts, that's where you can find it. That's also as a link to all three of the funding opportunities. The first thing that I think is really important to know is that these are separate opportunity that you'll one RFA those sites do not need to use the solutions that are developed under the small business TARs. And small businesses can create solutions that may not be used in the UL1 RFA site. The applicants, if they want, they can develop complimentary applications so UL1 RFA site can choose to work with a small business to create complimentary sites. However, if we fund one, we may not fund the other. So please have backup plans in case one of them is not funded. The other thing that's important to know is that there is just a single receipt date and I did get a question about that date. These are not the standard receipt dates. It is special for this funding opportunity. So look at that date and the announcement. There will be no option to revise and resubmit under this funding opportunity since it is a single receipt date. The important dates for this. Letters of intent are due by April 30th. Someone did ask if they could put them in earlier. We're accepting them at any time. We just would like to receive them by April 30th if possible. Applications are due by May 30th. Scientific merit review will occur in November of 2024. Approximately give or take a little bit. And then advisory council reviews will happen in February of 2025. And then we expect award notices to go out in about March or April of 2025. As far as application tips go, we really do recommend that you go to the how to apply application guide on the NIH website that link is at the bottom of this slide. We do recommend that you schedule a meeting to discuss a potential application with me, the program officer for these funding opportunities. And when you're writing the application, make sure that you give as much detail as possible because reviewers may not have the same knowledge base as you. So just make sure that you explain things so that they can understand it. Make sure that all of the required components that are listed in the RFA are addressed in your application. Pay attention to those review criteria as you develop your application. And then finally, we do recommend that you have someone from outside of your team review your application just to make sure that they can understand it and that you've addressed all of the required elements. So now I'd like to talk specifically about the U01 RFA. This particular RFA invites applications for sites to participate in the Genomic Medicine E-Consult Research Network. Awarded sites under this RFA will conduct research on the impact of and methods for implementing regional clinician to clinician Genomic Medicine E-Consult Services. And we are requiring that they respond to questions from the whole breadth of specialties that utilize Genomic Medicine and advise on a wide range of topics. So from what test should I order to what do my test results mean to what do I do next? We have found some people who have sent in questions asking if they can limit their service to just cancer or just metabolic disease. And the answer to that is no. We do want to create services that encompass all of those specialties and more. The mechanism that this award will be given under is a cooperative agreement and each awardee will have separate projects that test diverse service models and local barriers. That we've gotten some questions of whether or not we expect the different awardees to collaborate together to create one model and that's not what we're doing. Instead, each can propose their own models to test. Where they come together and why this is a cooperative agreement is that there will be network meetings monthly for the first 6 to 12 months and then quarterly to discuss progress and to discuss barriers and to brainstorm solution. So, I do see that there is a question in the the chat that says, would pharmacogenetic testing and consultation be included? Absolutely. We would be expecting that there would be some questions about that. So that would be something that you should make sure that you have expertise to answer those questions. We also have a question on the small business. I'll answer that when we get to the small business section. As far as the budget goes for the UL 1 RFA, these are the maximum allowable direct costs. So, starting in FY 25 to 870,000, going up to 1.02 million in the final year, that does not include indirect costs. And the direct costs are exclusive of indirects on any subcontracts. As far as the eligibility criteria for applying to the UL 1 RFA, it's really unlimited that higher education institutions, nonprofits, for-profits, small governments, small businesses can apply to the UL 1 RFA if they want, what is ineligible for applying for non-domestic or non-U.S. entities? So, do we have any questions about the UL 1 RFA? Please put them in the question and answer. I have gotten before this some emails with questions, so I'll just go through those really fast. The first one is does NHGRI have its own IRB process to use by outside agencies? And the answer to that is no, we don't have an IRB for you to use. You would need to use one at your institution or a partner institution. The next question is if an organization already has its e-consult service, would their model have to change or could funds be used to assess the efficiency of the existing model? You can absolutely adapt models that you already have in process at your own organizations, but it would need to be adapted to meet all of the components of this RFA. So, it needs to not just be your organization, but it needs to be an outside or outside. It needs to be a regional model. It needs to have genomic medicine. So, as long as it hits all of the components of the RFA, that's fine. As far as using funds to assess the efficiency of the existing model, this is to find methods for making them. And part of that is assessing the model. So, absolutely, you can use funds for that. But also do look at the RFA because there are a lot of other components like making implementation tools that would also need to be addressed. Can you give an estimate of the time commitment which might be involved? I can't give an exact estimate because it's going to really depend on how you set up your service, but this is a large project and will need to have a lot of time committed to it. If you look at the RFA, we do say that at full capacity, the service needs to expect a minimum of 1,000 consults a year. That equates to approximately 20 consults a week. So, it's going to take a bit of time for answering those and to have all of the infrastructure needed to create the service. And then you also are going to need to have time allotted for actually doing research on the service and making implementation tools. The next one is could funds be utilized to support development of infrastructure such as training and purpose of equipment software for clients and to upgrade equipment by consultants if necessary. Absolutely, you can use some of the funds for development of that infrastructure. Let's see. The next question is, do you have information available on reporting requirements and metrics? That's really something that we want each of the site to propose and this is part of the e-console network. Once we have the e-console network, we will be coming together to standardize some metrics. So, we're not giving you any reporting requirements or metrics right now. We're looking for you to propose those and then we'll agree on them in that work. The next one is can more than 1 organization collaborate on a single application? Absolutely, you can have multiple collaborators. The next question is, are there any restrictions about billing for services which will be provided during the course of the research? There are no restrictions. We're not preventing you from billing for services. If anything, we're encouraging you to bill for services. We are really trying to find out what models work and what models importantly are sustainable and part of that is probably going to be billing. So, we are going to ask our, we would imagine the applicants would want to bill for their services to create that sustainable model. Okay, those are all those questions. Let's look at the chat to see if there are questions. Yeah, Renee, there's a couple of questions. I think these can both be addressed together. So, there's one question asking, who can be involved in e-consults? I assume it includes genetic counselors too, although this is not reimbursed. And then does clinician to clinician, including genetic counselors. So this funding opportunity doesn't specify who can or can't respond to the e-consult requests. We just make sure that or ask the applicants that you make sure that your plans comply with any applicable laws or regulations such as state licensure laws that can potentially impact who could or cannot respond to those e-consult requests. Thank you very much, Jessica. Okay. Are there any other questions about the U01 RFA? The question, sorry. Okay, so there's another question of what is the definition of regional? So this doesn't have to be defined by geography necessarily. Services must meet the other criteria, though, specified in the funding opportunity. So, such as serving multiple unaffiliated healthcare organizations and large enough to expect at least, I believe it's 1000 e-consult requests per year when it's at full capacity. And actually, we did get an email question about that asking if a regional service could all be within one state and it can be within one state. We do want applicants to look at the barriers to creating these services. Having a patient's population or providers in multiple states is a known barrier. It's not a barrier you have to address. It's just a barrier that you can't address. And then I think the next question also answers that. Are there any geographical requirements for what is considered regional or is this defined only as being unaffiliated healthcare organizations? Yes, it's really just looking at unaffiliated healthcare organizations. So that could be defined regionally. So you could say, you know, any healthcare provider in this area can use this service. That's one way to define it. Or you could select a selection of unaffiliated federally qualified healthcare organizations. It's really up to you how you define. And then the next question is, does cancer genomics have to have to be part of this? I would say no, it doesn't have to. Cancer does need to be part of it. You need to expect questions from the complete breadth of what we would expect. And looking at the literature, we expect most general genetics, e-consult services get a good healthy proportion of cancer genomics. So you cannot say no cancer. I don't limit it to cancer. Sorry, go ahead, Jessica. Yep. And then can we review the award amount again? Okay. And let's see. So here is the direct costs that are limited to. This is also in the RFA. So you can look at it there. These are the direct costs. Obviously, you also have your budget will include those indirect costs. Okay. So this is another billing question. There are currently CMS coding guidelines for e-consult for both what is billable and who can bill. Are we suggesting we can bill outside of these definitions? We are not. So as we said that the RFA itself is not saying what you can or can't bill. It's really saying that you need to figure out what you can and can't bill. You can figure out alternate ways to get money. It's really up to you and that's part of the research is figuring out how to do this. I hope that answered the question. Okay. The next one is, can this be for just pediatricers that considered two specific specialized that is two specific specialized for this? Let's see. Can you define e-consult as you envision, not patient interaction. Okay. So as far as the definition of an e-consult that's really just clinician to clinician communication. What you're really trying to exclude is referrals. This is not a referral service where a primary care physician sends a patient to see a geneticist and then the geneticist takes care of it. This is really about just as an example, a primary care physician asking a question, that question being answered so that the primary care physician can take care of their patient. This also reminds me we did get an email question that asked if the consultant, so once the e-consult is the consultant puts in an e-consult to the consultant. The consultant is maybe the geneticist specialist. Because if that consultant is the one who will order the genetic testing and that would not fit what we're talking about for an e-consult. An e-consult is where the original consultant is the one who takes care of the patient, not the consultant. Okay. Let's see. The next question is 1,000 consults outside of the health system or including within the health system. We did not put a limit on the number that could come from within and without that 1,000 is including both in and outside. We did not put an exact proportion of how many need to be inside or outside. Just know that when the reviewers review it, they want to make sure that a proportion is coming from the outside. Let's see. And you define un-affiliated healthcare organization. So that is just a healthcare organization that is not owned by the original organization. That's not something that we have a definition, so I can't just quickly grab it. But what we're really talking about are, you know, an academic medical center might be the one providing the e-consults and they will provide those e-consults to a private practice physician who is not part of their organization. We're really looking at trying to get information to the groups that may not have that information within their own organization. So maybe a pediatrician practice does not have a geneticist that they don't have a geneticist to ask a question to, so they can go outside of their own organization to another one to get that question answered. Can consults be limited to all clinical areas in pediatrics? So it must include adult care too. Can it include somatic cancer testing? Absolutely. If you want to answer those questions, if you expect to get those questions on somatic cancer testing, we would want you to answer those. Let's see. Do we need to name the clinicians that would be providing e-consult services or can we generally just talk about the topics that would be covered? For the application, you can be at this point a little more general and say we will have, you know, a cancer specialist, a metabolic specialist at this point, you don't need to have them name. Let's see. Any requirements reserving pediatricians? We've got that already. It seems like education should be a significant part of responding to the e-consult. Do you agree and can you describe what might be expected? There are lots of different types of education. Absolutely. Any e-consult is going to require some education. We expect that these e-consults will allow the primary care physician to take care of their own patients. So you would need to have enough information that they could do that. Part of this is a research project. So one of the questions that you could propose to answer would be how much education is needed. You know, maybe there are some types of questions that need less information than others. So that is one of the things that you can talk about in your application. As far as describing what might be expected, we're not placing any expectations because we do think that this is an area of research. Let's see. Confirming that a GC could provide the answer. So I am not going to say that GCs can provide answers. What I'm saying is that NHGRI is not restricting it. You need to look at your own state laws. If your state allows GCs to answer, that's fine. And we're not going to prevent that, but if you're in a state that would not allow GCs to answer e-consults, being part of this research project does not change your state law. So that's, for us, it's fine, but look at your own state laws. Let's see. The next one is sometimes the correct response to an e-consult will be to make a referral to a specialist. Ideally, there are a subset of questions that can be addressed by an ordering provider, but could this be one of the metrics that is evaluated? Absolutely. So there are some indications that do need a specialist. There are some genetic syndromes that you absolutely need a specialist to do an examination, in which case we would expect you to refer to that specialist. As far as that being a metric, that is a metric that I think would be a great one for you to propose. The number of e-consults that can be resolved by the ordering provider versus the number that need to be sent onto a specialist. And if you look at the literature, that's actually a very common metric that is measured in genetic e-consults. So that is perfect. Let's see. The next question is, can funds be used for marketing? Yes, we would expect you to need to do some marketing because you need to let people know about this service. So we do expect some of it to be used for marketing. The next question is requesting clarification on your prior comment. The testing should be ordered by the primary care, indeed, not the e-consultant. Yes, that is correct. You can do a referral to a specialist. And if you do a referral to a specialist, then they would possibly do the genetic testing, but that would be outside of the e-consult system. For the actual e-consult system, we're providing answers back to the ordering provider. They would be the ones doing the care, which might be them placing a test or it might be them doing a referral. But actually within the e-consult, the consultant would not be doing testing. Okay, I hope that answered that. The next question, another billing question, this grant isn't meant to be direct billed for e-consult. Is that correct? This isn't a line item in the grant's budget. I'm not too sure what you mean by direct billed. If you can put some more information, because if you mean billing the patient, that's not the intent. So just if you could tell me a little bit more, what you mean by direct bill, that would be great. The next question is what types of consults must be included, for example, diagnosis versus treatment? Yes, both of those would need to be included in this. Those would be the first types of questions. When I think about what types of questions are you going to get, those are them. A primary care physician wants to know, how do I diagnose this? They're going to ask you. And then my patient has EDS, what do I do? Those are the types of questions you should expect. Is pharmacodynamics part of the spectrum of e-consults that would be expected? So that is really, you know, I think that you will, we can expect to get questions from primary care physicians asking, you know, things like my patient has depression and this hasn't worked. What tests can I order? Those are the types of questions that we would expect. I don't think we need to have a lot of detail. I see that Terry just came on. So Terry, would you like to talk about this? Sure. So just jumping down to his next what he meant, pharmacogenetics. Oh, okay. Yeah, so that's in. Sorry. Because I was, okay. Yes, so pharmacogenetics, we would expect to be some of the questions we would expect. Do you have guidance about logistics of documentation of the e-consult from the consultant's perspective? We do not have guidance. I think that this is one of the things that you can propose an idea. We looked at a lot of the different e-consult systems that are out there and there are a lot that work through the EHRs. So they're heavily documented in the medical chart and then there are some that are telephone hotlines that are very light on documentation. So we would expect you to think about the needs of all the clinicians involved and propose a system that you think best fits those needs. And that can also be a research question. The next question is what kind of tool development do you envision to support this long term? So long term as far as tools we were discussing in the RFA that we would want you to develop implementation tools. And those are really, you know, again, it's up to your creative minds to figure out what types of tools they are needed. You know, it could just be tools could be things like a set of templated responses for very common questions. A tool could be education and educational module that you go to different community providers in your region and give them the education. So there are lots of tools that could be developed. Let's see the next question is could the program provide education tools to the PCP for their patient to use? Absolutely. And that is, you know, again, these are questions on how do we best do e-consults? And these are things that aren't answered. It might be that the best thing to do, you know, if somebody asks about their patient with BRCA, it might be best for you to refer them to the NCCN site, or maybe it's best for you to give that provider an education sheet for them. So, again, this is for you to figure out how to best serve the patient's needs and then to test the implementation of that. Let's see. How many projects will be funded? Now we're planning on funding two to three of the U01 RFAs. Let's see. Is this considered a QIQC project and therefore no need for IRB? That completely depends on how you set it up. And I would talk to your IRB at your institution to find out what they think. Let's see. The next question is, is the IT platform included in the grants budget slash cost? The big lift is getting these requests back and forth between organizations. Yes, the IT platform is included in the budgeting costs. We know that there are some institutions that already have platforms. There are also some ones that can be purchased or were used. So that is in the cost. Let's see. The next question. The academic medical center has many small primary practices and clinics. They are owned by the parent organization but operate independently. They do not have access to genetic services at their location. Would you consider these to be affiliated locations? As written, if they are owned by the parent organization, I would say they're probably not unaffiliated that they are affiliated. If you want to talk more about this, why don't you reach out to me and we can talk about your particular situation. But if they're owned by them, right now, by definition, we would say that they are affiliated. The next question is, is there any concern that PCPs are not interested in doing this? We have found that they are very busy and want someone to do this for them, e.g. a referral. That is a great metric and this is part of the whole point of the research project is we are trying to find out the best ways to implement it. But yes, there are some, and we've looked at a lot of literature on that there are some PCPs out there who want to refer and there are other PCPs out there who realize that there are not enough specialists to refer to. And they are, these are needed. So, but, you know, the key to this particular RFA is finding out the best way to do it. Let's see the next question is should non-affiliated sites be named and included as subsites as part of the proposal. So you do not need to name all unaffiliated sites. You know, particularly if you're saying it's all anyone in the state of, what is it, North Carolina is part of, can use this service then you do not need to name every single site in North Carolina that that really does let us know who it is you're talking about. But if, if you are doing a collection of federally qualified health centers, then you just need to give us enough information so that we know exactly who it is you're talking about and how large that patient population is. Let's see the next question is I apologize if this is repetitive and RFA for the U01 it's specified like the consults cannot be clinically specialty based I need not just answer genetics. However, I don't see any directions about, okay, this is the pediatric adult question again. We do need to have it also covering adult. Is the expectation that the test costs are covered under usual medical care. Yes, this would be usual medical care if there are tests because that would be done outside the E consult the E consult itself is really just that communication between the providers. Any medical care that happens after it would be that usual care. Let's see. You mentioned that telephone consults could be an option wanted to verify technically that's not an console. We, yes, we debated that most telephone lines are electronic so they're technically covered by consults because it's an electronic communication so we are including telephones. Obviously that's debatable on whose definition you're using but we are including telephone consults. Let's see is building required can we provide the service free to the patient. If that is how you want to do it you can do that. I again, one of the major things that this study is looking at is how we can create sustainable services. So as long as you're doing some research that shows how what you're doing can be sustainable. It's acceptable, but I see Terry's got something to say about that. Yeah, so, so let's be really clear here. This is not a console to a patient. This is to another provider. So you wouldn't be billing a patient. I don't know if you can bill a provider you can try. But, but it's not for the patient. I also have a couple of clarifications, Renee, when you're finished, you're doing a fabulous job. I think we've had the end of the list to definitely do some clarifications. Oh, great. No, no, this was, this was terrific. And we will price for those that are a little bit came up a, you know, more than once we'll be sure to put them in an FAQ document a frequently asked questions document so that you, you have it. Early on there was asked about the need to collaborate among the sites we're not expecting the sites to do exactly the same things but it we will, you know, have meetings periodically and we would expect you to share, you know, different techniques tools, etc. debate, you know, approaches that sort of thing so it's a loose collaboration you don't have to be in lockstep but you do need to work together. There was a question about, you know, could we bill for the service if a referring provider was willing to pay you. You know, that would be acceptable but you need to make it very clear that you wouldn't be double billing so you wouldn't be then charging for the consultant's time if you're billing for it. And that's, that's important to be clear on on the definition of unaffiliated let us give that a little bit more thought and put that into into an FAQ so that everybody sees the same thing and we're all in agreement on it. So the question about should, should we name clinicians versus you know specific clinicians versus topics that can be be covered. Remember that you have to convince reviewers that you can do this and so think about, you know, if you don't have anybody named, they may be a little bit skeptical. You don't have to name everyone but you want to convince, you know, a peer reviewer that that you have a reasonable group of people with reasonable letters of, you know, commitment who would be willing to work with you on this. Similarly for naming the sites as Renee said you don't have to name every single site, but you need to show some evidence that you do have access to those sites and that they can produce the thousand consults per year that that she talked about.  So, you would probably stated more more courteously than that but, but yes there's some, some information, you need to explain your response. And on the, on the ordering there was a question about can you provide a referral well you wouldn't provide a referral to the patient again this is you would recommend a referral and could you know would be more helpful. Presumably if you can actually name a specialist that they could reach out to, but you would be recommending this to the provider you're not doing direct patient care. Those were all the things I picked up Renee so did I say anything wrong. No, the only other thing I wanted to add on billing. You know just that this is your time to think creatively we did see some consult services that were actually being funded through health insurance plan. So, you know, they're, I think they, you know, just don't, don't box yourself in when you think about ways to tip on these. Yeah, there was another question about can you build providers but not patients or their insurance. I think that's sort of up to the way you have interactions with providers right. Well, and, you know, just remember though that one of the, one of the requirements of this. What I would say is that you include underserved areas too. Don't. I don't think it would review well if you were saying that you have an underserved area that's included, but possibly you might propose a billing mechanism that would make the service unusable to them so just all those issues are things that you need to think about when creating your service model. Okay. I'm going to count to 10. And if we don't get any more questions and kind of go to the next set of RFAs. Okay, no more questions. So let's go to the next set of our actually started the next set of the small business. So, these are different. These invite applications from eligible small businesses. And what we're really asking these small businesses to do is to develop solutions that can be used to enable regional clinician to clinician genomic medicine. Services. So the other RFA was creating services. And this is just creating things for those services to you. Examples of potential projects are creating solutions that enable the HR data transmission. I'm not going to read through all of these, but you can also look at the RFA. So this is a funding opportunity. Those do have some examples of things that would be considered acceptable. It's not an exclusive list. They're just to get your minds thinking. These pairs, as I said, they are separate from the one RFA. So I found some email questions asking about requirements. We're not specifying requirements such as how the data is captured or transmitted. So looking at the purpose of the NIH small business program, it's really to give small businesses grants to do research and development for them to create their own small business line. So they really need to consider the broader commercial potential when developing solutions. So if you think that one option has more commercial potential, then that's the option you should do. But you shouldn't be asking what the eCounsel network is doing. You should be asking what is commercial. As far as the small business PARs, there is only one receipt date for those, as we said before. However, if a small business wants to, if you don't get funded in that one receipt date, you could always resubmit under the omnibus SBIR STTR funding opportunity. So while the UO1s, they will not have an opportunity for resubmission. You could resubmit under a different opportunity if you're a small business looking at the small business PAR. As far as the budget goes, for those who aren't very familiar with small businesses budgets, they're divided into two different phases. There's a phase one and a phase two. Both of these phases include both direct and indirect costs. So when we say that the limit is 400,000 for phase one, that is looking at the whole of phase one, not per year. And that does include both the direct and indirect costs. For this particular funding announcement, it's not the standard timelines or the standard budgets. We do have our own budget that 400,000 in phase one, 2.15 million in phase two. For this announcement, phase one can last up to two years and phase two can last up to three years. As far as eligibility criteria for these small business PARs, we accept applications from any United States small business concern. And a small business concern is a for profit. It's small business, so it has not more than 500 employees. There are some particular requirements about who owns them that if they're not directly owned or controlled by private individuals, if it's like a venture, joint venture capitalists or capital investing. You really should look at the regulations. I put that link to that on the website or on that slide. But if you have a question as to whether or not your small business is eligible, feel free to contact me and we can make sure that you get the information that you need on eligibility. So now we're going to open it up for questions about the small business PARs. I have gotten a couple of emailed ones, so I will start to go over those while people ask questions in the question answer. So the first question is, would the consultant order the genetics test? Again, this is small business, so it is a little bit different. This is really about creating solutions like software or something like that for enabling e-consults. In our definition in e-consult is not where a consultant orders the test that would be a referral. So under this opportunity, no. Where would the application revenue come from? This again, it's small business.  It is generally how that happens, so you need to figure out what your market is and who you can market it to. The next question is, would the developer market to the consultant organizations and or PCPs? And that really depends on what it is you're creating. Most of the tools that I can think of that you would want to develop, you'd probably market to the consultant organizations, but you might come up with ones that would go to the PCPs. So that's really something that you'll need to do your own market research on. And then this was how early can we send the letters of intent? We can send them today if you want. They just need to be here by that. April 30 deadline. Okay, so going to our question and answers. The consult consult often poses the dual questions of what should I do myself and worth that I refer with a system for addressing. What should I do myself that uses decision support to get clinician to provide current information, view a differential diagnosis and get human advice based on this information be discouraged. Passing along that computable information and the referral. That was a really long question. I want to make sure that I'm understanding the question. Properly. View it. So, I think what you're asking is, should we be. I guess. What I would say here is that this is, I think is a place where those clinicians are going to need to use their, their clinical, their best clinical judgment that they're definitely going to be some where they should refer. And there are going to be somewhere, you know, primary care physician should be empowered to do the do it themselves and that that's really clinical judgment so I think that this is, this is where those consultants are going to have to use their clinical judgment unless I'm misunderstanding the question. And that's a really good question. This next one is at risk of sounding dumb. What does they are stand for? So that is P stands for program is announcement. So that's program announcements. So the R is actually with special. Receipt review. So it's just, it's a particular type of funding opportunity. The other ones that are phase are.  So that that's what it stands for. Let's see. The next question is, can one apply for phase one and phase two together at milestones are clear. That is what we call the fast track mechanism that you apply for both phase one and phase two. And fast track is allowable on these. So yes, you can apply for phase one and phase two. Let's see. Are there any other questions? Okay. So we had questions about the, the U of one RFA first, and even though we're on the small business PR is I'm going to open it up now if anybody has questions about either of those or general questions now would be the time to ask. Otherwise, it does not look like we're getting any other questions. So I really want to thank all of you for attending today. And again, as Terry said, we will be putting this up as after this, we will be putting up a frequently asked questions. The one major thing that we are going to be putting into that is the, the definition of affiliated. So we will be discussing that and putting that in there. So please do expect if that was one of your questions, please go to the FAQ. And if other questions come up, please feel to reach out to me and we can talk more. And if you're planning to submit something just reach out to me and we can talk a little bit about your submission. Okay. That is it for today. Thank you very much for joining us. Bye bye.


I was going every one Caleb here with late and sports cards next night. We're gonna be working on the 2022 tops definitive baseball three-box case break number 22 random division style. I have the results for you guys right here You go best of luck here See what we can find and always do appreciate you guys joining these breaks I'm on it. I'm on it. I'm on it. I'm on it. I'm on it. All right, here we go Thank you as always everyone. Appreciate you filling up these breaks so we can move right along All evening for you just the wizards like I said, I did Lincoln in the chat. That's the only Basketball spot remaining tonight prison basketball just the wizards Good luck everyone Division style as well here. It looks perfect Good luck the last of the definitive this evening in the round of prison basketball. All right first up here is a patch card Justin Verlander 24 30 On the Verlander AL West Al West get ready for the next card Mike trout name or a letter patch boom Al West That's the you right I mean, it would be a really skinny. Oh, but I think it's the you Nice Trouty There you go. Usually we leave these for forest, but suppose I'll take one Nice AL West it can crats there next up here Roderoo patch autograph to 40 Another one right away for you AL West want to start all the cards Yeah, it's a great letterman patch letter patch. Yeah, nice Roderoo to 40 Oh Beautiful one here six of 15 on the patch autograph Ronald Acunha, Jr Congrats on that. What a start to the break And at least getting in on the fun. Congratulations We'll mag that one That's awesome. Check the results on this one. This is gonna be a duel Patch autograph five of ten Vladdie Guerrero, Jr. And Juan Soto boom Very very nice it congrats there. Yes, NLE East AL East Okay, this is a pretty borderline one I'm gonna shoot a message on this one This is a really this is much more borderline than the previous ones. I will shoot a message I don't know if we're gonna random this one or not quite yet If you could mag it though, please and I can take a picture Also, Lane if you're listening right now if you wanted to make the call feel free Otherwise, I'll shoot a message over to rich quick. It's a pretty borderline one there reds here gonna be to 30 On the gold frame auto Joey Vada Yeah, we're not gonna random that one. We'll wait on that. We'll wait on that and email the owners It's kind of what I was leaning towards as well That will be weighted on him Like I said, we will email the owners that will be random at a later time Or it will potentially be sold on eBay as a auction and they will split the profits You go reds and L central Continuing on here. We have a Matt Manning rookie autograph to 25 There you go on the Matt Manning Al central So that random will be held off on until we know further and we've got a will Clark auto three of 25 on the will Clark You go in our West Xbox up to great hit though and congrats, of course the both teams Good luck on that if you do decide to random it be on the lookout, of course for an email. Once again, it was Tom B And what was the other name? John a yeah, John Tom B and John a Be on the lookout for an email Thank you as always for turning the brakes Great to appreciate it So you can find here in the next box guys. Yeah, we got it on actually Patch your 8 of 30 for the AL East John Carlos Stanton Stanton there Yeah, I know this is actually quite the this is quite the game phone. I've been staring up at it every now and then There's been some alright plays. There's also been some really bad plays. I'll be honest I haven't really commented on that, but it's okay And now West here on the Dodgers hit mookie bets Patch to 50 Definitely, it's just like straight airballs. Honestly, so it's pretty easy to evaluate And L central to a five Sammy Sosa awesome And L central there you go very very nice And it's gonna be here for the AL East JD Martinez nice one there JD Martinez patch autograph AL East AL East again Lattie Guerrero Jr. George Springer tool patch auto 14 of 35 boom Congrats blue jays AL East. That's awesome Nice one there the rights We have gold frame Bryce Harper three of ten on the auto great hits Three of ten NL East Congrats there. That's nice one bag the Harper Yeah, at least you're gonna be a 17 to 25 rookie autograph Shane Boz AL East And closing it out with one of the not numbered defining images autographs Manny Machado There he is and L West Manny One more guys Yeah, not bad indeed good stack of mags starting to accumulate over there. Oh, yeah See we got here Hatch guard here to 50 Buster Posey And L West Nice Posey definitive helmet relic card 14 of 35 rookie Brandon Marsh, that's cool there AL West The helmet one of the first helmet cards I have pulled from this. That's a nice hit there Brandon Marsh cool helmet relic Very nice go AL West This is gonna be Paul Molliter patch autograph here number to 40. That's gonna be a twins Paul Molliter Twins that time so that goes to AL Central AL Central another one right away this time. It's gonna be Patch autograph to 50 Miguel Cabrera Not bad and next up we have NL central to a lot of graph Ryan Sandburg Andre Dawson to 35 NL central NL East gold frame autograph 11 of 30 Peter Lonzo Current home run leader. I believe in the NL There he is PD polar bear Peter Lonzo To 30 on the gold frame Rookie autograph is Seth beer numbered one of 50 rookie auto there Seth beer There he is NL West Closer now here one of 25 after the Braves Tom Glavin One of 25 on the auto there the Glavin There you go Closer now with the hit for the NL East. I appreciate you guys joining as always We're gonna go recap here of the hits. Thank you as always for joining the race Really really do appreciate it All right, so I'll start out here with the patch cards Patch cards. We do have Buster Posey, Mookie Betts, John Carlos Stanton Justin Verlander the one-of-one Mike Trout Sick one there the Brandon March to 35 on the helmet relic Very cool card once again Autograph cards. Okay. Thanks We've got autograph cards here Tom Glavin Seth beer Peter Lonzo gold frame Andre Dawson Ryan Sandberg Miguel Cabrera Paul Molleter Manny Machado Shane Baz JD Martinez Will Clark Matt Manning Joey Vado in rod career Magged hits here autographs Brice Harper to 10 gold frame George Springer and Vladigroup junior round of the cunea junior big one there in the patch auto This year is the Vladigroup junior and Juan Soto this year. We're gonna contact the owners John a and Tom B I believe it was and we will Be sending you an email begin to look out for that in the for the decision of this car and Then the Sammy Sosa. Thank you again so much everyone. Hope you did enjoy the break there We'll have them all well protected up and right out to you


COP26 climate talks will be a key moment to limit catastrophic climate change. And because they're held in Glasgow, the UK government has an extra large responsibility to make sure they go to plan. Alok Sharma is the Tory minister in charge. And this weekend, he gave an interview to the observer in the interview. Sharma told the paper that the consequences of failure of COP26 would be catastrophic. He said, I don't think there's any other word for it. You're seeing on a daily basis what is happening across the world. Last year was the hottest on record, the last decade, the hottest decade on record. On the eve of the release of the latest IPCC report, which was when he was speaking, Sharma said, this is going to be the starkest warning yet that human behavior is alarmingly accelerating global warming. And this is why COP26 has to be the moment we get this right. We can't afford to wait two years, five years, 10 years. This is the moment. I don't think we're out of time, but I think we're getting dangerously close to when we might be out of time. We will see from the IPCC a very, very clear warning that unless we act now, we will unfortunately be out of time. These are all very strong words from the minister who has been put in charge of COP26. They're good to hear. This is what you would want a minister in charge of COP26 to be saying. There is a problem with Alok Sharma though, and it was evident in that interview. The position he is putting forward for the government is completely incoherent. The observer headline, credit to the headline writers, made this clear. So you can see here we're on the brink of catastrophe warns Tory climate chief. COP26 meeting his last chance says Alok Sharma as he backs UK's plan for new oil and gas fields. Yes, while Sharma believes climate change could be catastrophic, he also backs UK plans to have new fossil fuel projects. This is the last thing you should be doing if you're serious about climate change. The defence offered by Alok Sharma isn't particularly persuasive. So this is what he said on the plan to open new oil fields in the North Sea. He said future fossil fuel licenses are going to have to adhere to the fact that we have committed to go to net zero by 2050 in legislation. There will be a climate check on any licenses. We must act now to avoid catastrophe. Oh, but not quite yet. We're still going to allow this new oil field. Now, it's controversial to say new oil field. I mean, it is a new oil field, but the government's excuse they're opt out is to say, oh, no, this isn't a new oil field. This is an extension of an existing one. And they say because it's an extension of an existing one, it doesn't have to meet the supposedly stringent requirements that the government have set for new oil fields. So it's going ahead. Anyway, also important to know it's not just lefties like us at Navarra Media who are opposing this, the international energy agencies, that's the global energy watchdog has said that all fossil fuel exploration and development must cease this year to have a chance of limiting warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius. We've got a government who is saying we need to take climate change seriously. Otherwise, we're facing catastrophe. Also, we are going to allow a new oil field to be developed in the North Sea. The ongoing role and response of the UK and other countries in Europe and North America to climate breakdown is, has been the biggest scandal of the 20th and the 21st century. And the issue here is not a deficit of scientific knowledge. The IPCC told us in 2018 that we have 12 years to limit climate catastrophe, which I think is probably quite a generous number. And we are a quarter of the way through those 12 years now. And what do we have to show for it? Ken Sarawiwa knew in the 1990s that the lack of political action and the ongoing chokehold that the fossil fuel industry has over our political processes is an urgent emergency. So the issue isn't lack of reports. It's not a lack of understanding. It's a deficit of political strength and it's a deficit of political will. And that is what we see by the kind of giving with one hand and taking with the other that we're seeing with Alok Sharma. And what he's giving is very minute. What he's taking is very, very considerable. And that deficit of political strength is in the face of, you know, it doesn't just exist because there's a kind of cozy relationship between the fossil fuel industry and our political classes. But it's because there is an overall investment in the broader system in which the fossil fuel industry exists. So things like our insurance company system, our insurance systems, our financial systems, even us, the state actors within the UK government that all facilitate the existence of a fossil fuel industry and the fossil fuel economy, as well as investment in the broader economic system that sort of demands growth at all and any costs, you know, you can't even slow down long enough to consider what it could mean to transition to a different energy system or to transition to a more sustainable way of living. And that is the contradiction that ultimately lies at the heart of existing state power. And it's not just in the UK, it's across Europe, it's in North America. And it's why within our current political system, we're going to keep losing the very precious years that we have left in order to take the necessary and urgent action.  Climate change is already underway. It's about mitigating the impact that, you know, and many ways are already underway, but also mitigating against worsening those impacts. That requires action that strikes ultimately the very heart of capitalism. It requires not only ending the fossil fuel industry, but it also requires things like abolishing intellectual property regimes that, you know, stop us from widely sharing technologies that can lead us to a more sustainable future. It requires overhauling our food and agricultural system. It requires transforming our, how we relate to land, you know, how we, how we conceptualize our relationship to land and our political classes, even if they might consider themselves to be, you know, invested in the environment because of the, how embedded they are in reproducing those broader systems. That is why when we have these incredibly profound and urgent moments such as this IPCC report, we are met with it.  Or what I think is even more absurd, which is Alec Sharma saying, oh, it's okay that we're cushioning new fossil fuel projects because we're having climate checks on them. Like how can you put a climate check on a fossil fuel project? But, you know, this is kind of going to be this sort of them virtue signalling. And I think it's funny because virtue signalling is often whenever virtue signalling is used, it's normally done in a very meaningless way. But it's actually the only way that you can accurately describe the UK government's approach to climate breakdown because it's signalling that there's an issue as if all that is at stake is, you know, ticking the box on the political sound by checklist. And then behind closed doors, literally making the problem worse and not only making it worse by commissioning new fossil fuel projects within the UK, but making it worse by enabling the financial and political infrastructure that makes the fossil fuel industry possible, much of which is located within the UK. So even if the fossil fuel projects themselves aren't necessarily taking place within the UK, which of course we know they still are, the decisions and the political ability and the financial ability to do so is taking place on UK land and within UK jurisdiction.


Like how do people see are we live? Oh, yeah, we're live so Greetings, welcome to Boku on air. I'm Jory. Hi Hi, Jory. Hi, Ben. We're not we're totally not sitting side by side Okay, so maybe we are um That's okay. It's cuz we like each other. You don't want to go. Oh look. I'm watching the video of us right now You're watching okay Good, that's great. So it's working. Can they hear us wait on this sheet? Yeah Good, that's great. Okay. Yeah, it works. Okay. All right. So um for for those of you who are into a book who on air situation What we do is basically we have a conversation with you guys in IRC and if possible live So what you need to do is follow along on the YouTube link that Isaac Durazo just posted in IRC And click that link you should be seeing us Live with maybe a few seconds delay But we've confirmed that it is broadcasting And then of course post questions to us either on the Google plus page or in IRC and we'll just uh You know take it from there. So Ben, hi big news this week, huh? Yeah Little thing happened with grunt something. I uh I was forced to release finally release version 0.4 of grunt Everyone in the office said that I just had no choice anymore and I had to go and do that. So So yay grunt 04 is released website and all So that's uh That's super cool where I've been working on it since well o3 Was announced at the end of march last year And then I pretty much started right away into well I mean the whole idea with o3 Was it was like let's get something out there for people to try out it was I'd Just reached the point where it was good enough to share Uh, and then but it wasn't done and it's still not done. It was uh, you know, I just continued immediately on to more development and uh Yes, it took a while to get where I am right now. I mean Some people were thinking that 04 was going to come out very quickly. I actually thought a number of times that it was going to come out prematurely, but the thing is Uh, I we tried a lot of different things And a lot of we threw away a lot of stuff And so what what we ended up releasing for 04 was like Really the culmination of a ton of trial and error if you if you used the beta While we were like developing it you would see it break from bill to bill because we kept trying tons of different things out But 04 is like We feel really really good about it Well, I mean you guys put in a lot of hard work and um, you know, I think the whole office. Yeah We've teased you a little bit about come on then win, but you know, I think everything comes into time and you know I think another Thing that came up was just the issue of using some of these tools before their In production before like, you know where you're you're necessarily ready for that so well, it was it was cool though because like so You know a lot of people are using grunt now and we're using grunt before so grunt 0.3. I mean it got downloaded quite a lot a lot of people were using even though I mean this is beta software like we feel really good about it. We test a lot of it a lot of the stuff Um, that's internal to it. We can't we haven't tested everything but a lot of it's tested And we're really striving to test there like all the things in there. Um We got a lot of people using it which gave us a lot of really really good feedback. I mean it wasn't perfect But that's how we make it better. Um, we're calling it a beta because more like To set people's expectations that it's not final and that we're going to keep adjusting it until we really really like it But that being said we use it a lot and tested a lot and You know on windows and os 10 and lenex and stuff like that to make sure that it's just reliable It's like as reliable as we can get it for a beta. It's just not Fine that being said whatever we have is in npm And you'll be able to I mean if you still wanted to use grunt 0.3.1 You could install that and use it. I mean knock yourself out Uh So, you know and when we release another version in the future grunt 0.5 You'll be able to continue to use grunt 0.4 as long as you want With whatever plugins happen to be compatible with it. So you definitely have a lot of options We don't like throw away the old version. It's just the new version has so much cool stuff that we've added in That you want to migrate and like You know, I think on that note it'd be interesting to hear. I know we did have tyler Callan wrote a blog post for booku.com About some of those changes and stuff But I'd be cool to hear you talk about some of the new apis and stuff that Yeah, um, let's uh, so Let me think about this for a sec. I've I've uh My brain has been in a lot of different places over the last few months And i'm trying to think of like and some of the stuff we added in very recently Some of the stuff we added in a long time ago Um, so for example, one of the things we really wanted to do with 0.4 Was make it so that people who are writing. Um, we wanted to make it easier for people who are writing grunt plugins um We realized that a lot of the plugins Tended to do some of the same things like there was there it was very easy to say like, okay, I want to Minify this file to this file or I want to take a bunch of files and concatenate them to this output file But there was no really elegant way For people to say okay. I want to compile All the folders in this directory To like the same named files in another directory with a different extension For example, if you're compiling coffee script to javascript or compiling less to css Or markdown files to html or whatever there was no really elegant way to specify that And so what would happen is that every different plugin author would have to write their own version of how you would specify that in options So we took all of that out of the plugin author's hands and we built it into grunt and as a standard you can actually Define these kind of one-to-one file mappings or Pretty much anything you'd want that we've been able to think of that you'd want to do with files You can specify in a consistent way across all Tasks all plugins. They don't have to care about that anymore grunt just gives them the files already processed So we'd started doing that before but we like went all the way with it this time We actually have we're going to break it out in a separate library And make it available to anyone to use for that kind of stuff. So that's that's that was a really big change another one was We have a standard way across tasks of specifying options and files. So You know you have inside of your task. You've got your target And then inside of that you have an options object that was have options and inside of the task The task author can specify defaults and then you can override them at the task level and then at the target level So we've that's like we've standardized that we've taken all the built-in tasks We've pulled them out of grunt and now they're all separately maintained plugins Some people have complained about that Because they want to just install grunt and then have all these things for them conveniently built in But the thing is like a The stuff that's built into grunt was stuff that I needed for me personally and most other people need other stuff on top of that So you're going to be installing plugins anyways for most of the things that you're going to do But in addition to that like we were running into problems Where um If we wanted to update jshint to have the latest version of jshint Well because the jshint task was built into grunt We'd actually have to release a whole new version of grunt just to update the jshint internally Now because jshint is a separate plugin. We just update the plugin release a new plugin grunt has nothing to do with that We only have to release grunt really release a new version when we're like fixing bugs in grunt itself Which is uh, that's that's really awesome And we've actually gotten a ton more contributions on those core tasks because they're broken out of separate things Which has been awesome like uglify was completely rewritten to support uglify 2 the source maps and all that kind of stuff too Um, and and then you guys also on the site speaking of the plugins Have been sort of maintaining somewhat of a plugin like repository and and stuff too And there's some officially supported plugins that you and and the team are working on. Yeah. Um, so tyler callan. He's like He's in charge of maintaining all of the contrib Uh, uh repositories if I if I'll screen share my chrome right now. I'll show you guys Um, let's see if this will work Whoa It's gruntjs.com if I go to the plugins page by the way isaac dorasso Here at boku and vlad filipov Have worked to make a really awesome website with all kinds of cool stuff on it So that's gruntjs.com and we actually are replicating all the content from our wiki over there with some believe it or not custom grunt tasks So the gruntjs.com website is just another repo in grunt You can it's kind of a mess because we were just really rushing to get it done But you could actually see how it's built with crazy grunt tasks and stuff, but um We're not proud of that code. It's it was just like let's get it done So we'll have to clean it up later But if you click on plugins there and go to this list it's actually uh pulled in by a plugin site generator That was I think it was contributed by cinder soros who's also working on yeoman and uh does a lot And bowler and some other cool stuff. Uh, he wrote I think it was him He wrote the code that like pulls all this stuff down from the npm repository. So grunt is an npm module um, what that means is there's a Node js is how you run javascript like in your command line or on the server and npm is their package manager That's how you install node modules and grunt Requires node and is an npm module. So you'd install it with npm like npm install grunt, etc And uh, all the plugins are actually installed via npm as well And so what we we do is actually query all query npm for everything that's published with a keyword of grunt plugin And that gives a list and we've got a lot of stuff and honestly a lot of these things are like modified eight months ago I mean, this is this is pretty ancient. So we're not really expecting that to work But there's a lot that are much more recent you can sort by uh by the date and stuff But the ones that go to the top by default are the contriplugins and those are the ones we officially maintain And there's like 20 of them or something.  I've just been working on something um In the last couple days like okay, so I've been working on grunt for a long time And we've been using grunt internally to test grunt And to test grunt plugins and I've I've released a jQuery plugin the other day that uses grunt internally um And so uh, I haven't really actually used grunt to build any kind of website I've just been using it to like do little javascript very javascript head Yeah, Tyler, he's been well he he actually builds websites, right? Like I spend all of my time writing javascript tools and so the other day I was like, you know, I've had this project I want to do for a whole long time. I've wanted to take Uh, that's not it. I've wanted to take my website and uh, we do it instead of being in the horrible Well, I don't like it movable type cms, which is all pearl and php crazy stuff I want to migrate that out to just markdown files and have a static site I mean, they're so easy to build and so like I actually sat down and uh Let's say I have to actually shoot this separately, right? Um screen share Go back to this guy This is a repo in my github So, uh, let's see. I was over here And I've got uh I I just sat down and I created a grunt file I exported all the content from my website, uh, like if I take a look in, uh 10 V8 export you can see there's like A ton of posts here. Uh, there's like 177 of them, you know, like my articles everything And so I went through I started writing some grunt tasks to say, okay, all this stuff that's exported in this format programmatically go and modify to clean it up take all the markdown files and then like build them to a site and uh, like I'm in the process of testing and breaking things right now But it actually goes through all my markdown and debugging some stuff. It builds the whole site out into this using less internally and if I say like, uh I'd have to find a link to it. I could actually open that thing up and see like some A rough version of what I'm actually doing with the site right now Uh, let's see that's not it Then I have to take out take a look and find it But I'm like debugging my own site using grunt to build it dynamically And 177 pages builds it like A second or something. It's super fast. Um, I know it is just really fast. So it's like about that Um, so it's actually using it. Yay So, um, we have a couple of questions in, um, What is the channel about one about contributing to grunt, which I think that yeah uh, and the other let's see Hcab net tech I feel like I'm a star around Um about windows I'm gonna take a take a crack. Um, how can people help with grunt? Well, we have a grunt IRC channel. So it's uh So, let's see hold on a second. I think I actually have this somewhere on uh, website Say documentation We get going on there We've got some contributing like a contributing guide down here Where we talk about if you want to contribute code Uh, you can actually uh, there's a handful of grunt projects the website the grunt itself All the grunt plugins Uh, and this the grunt in it it used to be a task now It's a standalone tool for doing project scaffolding if you want to contribute to those there's actually a whole guide Um for doing that We actually have an IRC channel which let's see. I'm in the process We're in the process of updating all this stuff, but it's just pound grunt So if you're already in uh IRC just go to the pound grunt channel We don't have forums or a mailing list right now because We none of us have the time or inclination to run it, but if someone wanted to run a forum Or moderate like a stack overflow. There's there's a bunch of things posted with tags with grunt j s Um or forums we or mailing list. We would definitely Be more than happy to allow someone to help us out in that way We're we're kind of stretched a little thin so we don't have a ton of time to be able to manage those things We use IRC and the issues tracker On all the grunt repositories a lot. So we've got that going that's that's one way that people can contribute. Um The best thing to do would be to to actually take a look at plugins that you think Could use extra functionality or whatever or or have existing issues and try to Close them work with us We we monitor the the issues all the time work with us to help write code and tests unit test someone Just uh just today. I think someone contributed a whole ton of unit tests for like the one of the template Uh plugins that we have which was Super helpful I don't remember Which one it was Wait a bit contribute jst Let's see go here go to the bugs tracker for that particular thing closed I mean you can see we've got 17 closed issues. We've got five Open like there's there's a lot of activity. This is just in one if I was to go to like the entire I think I think I have a way to see all of the issues that are open and all of these things There's a lot and then I think the other thing that's helpful for you guys too It's just to to learn more about how developers are using grunt because you know like The more sort of like feedback you get how people are using the tool That's that's helpful too. So yeah It's it's funny. We've got we've got some really good feedback. We get some Not good you feedback from people who aren't really paying attention to what we've been doing But it gives us an opportunity to like help Uh revise our documentation if nothing else. I mean if you have trouble finding something And uh let it let us know because well not only help you figure out how to do it, but You can help us fix our documentation by telling us how to make it better Never underestimate the importance of that. Yeah, we're going to separate out the documentation a separate repository So people can file pull requests against the tools to make it easy for updates. Oh, awesome There's a couple questions I see about windows. Oh, yeah, well grunt works, uh in windows fine. So, um We've designed windows We've designed grunt to work in windows it everything internally all of its dependencies are pure java script Um and grunt will like you can install load in windows. You'll get npm and you can install grunt there as well I tested it just yesterday In a vm just to kind of mess around. I don't use windows. None of us use windows But we do test it in windows and we have a lot of windows users So it definitely works in windows the only things that you have to be careful of windows are things like line endings Like windows has a different line ending than mac or unix And so if you were to download grunt depending on how you have your git set to like clone it The some of the unit tests could fail because you might have line ending differences but other than that like Once you're using in a project, you shouldn't have any problems. We've got a lot of windows users Uh now someone asked about visual visual studio People have written grunt plugins like uh like for sublime and things like that You can actually use grunt internally when it works on the command line If you didn't want it to work on the command line, you can use it programmatically as a library although We're working on a new version starting Starting now pretty much where I already started working on a new version It'll make it much easier to use grunt as a library. It kind of works now Some as we like it to be so You know it's it's pros and OS 10 and linux for them and they have no problem using it people have used it in power shell in windows And also in like a git bash In windows, so it it does work in her awesome Um, and again if you guys have questions as you're watching feel free to pop those either on the google class page Or in irc we're wondering or not Pretty Someone's asking you grunt o4 is their way to automatically download dependent task modules So can you can you explain more? what what you mean by that because The one thing that grunt doesn't do is any kind of dependency management There's no way to say like inside of a task Make sure this other task runs first Now tasks can say hey if this other task hasn't run. Sorry this task will fail We just don't want to get into dependency management and and if you're talking about installing tasks Well, if it's in a plugin And your plugin has requires like certain features Like you know, you've got the uglify plugin for example or this grunt can trip jst Let's take a look at this one if we look at the code for this Um And say like in its package jason, we've actually got is my screen still shared Yeah, oh, oh infinity again. Okay, totally And so many was saying too like we could make that bigger a little bit that's hard. They're on 480p on youtube So it's hard to oh my god. Okay. Well, you can see in the package jason files that big enough That there are dependencies like in a in a plugin's dependencies or your project's dependencies Um If you're dealing with a plugin you'd use the dependencies This says whenever someone actually just uses the plugin these things will get installed So load ash would get installed and this other thing that a bunch of our plugins Actually share get installed if you're actually developing or you have a project or something dev dependencies Is where you put your stuff So if in your project in your website and whatever you'd specify grunt at whatever version you want And all the plugins at whatever versions you want for all those things And pure dependency is a new thing that npm has that allows us to specify In a grunt plugin what versions of grunt that it's compatible with Which is great that if you try to install a grunt o4 plugin with grunt o3 npm will complain about that for you So Yeah, so it package jason with npm will help you Manage your dependencies. So I see another question Regarding the split in a global grunt cli and local to project grunt any reason you didn't just include Dot slash node modules slash dot bin in your path. Okay, so To preface this let me explain that Before we used to say hey everyone install grunt globally In npm that would put it in your system path and that would allow you to just type grunt to run it from anywhere Which was great until we realized actually very shortly thereafter That it's probably not a good idea for you to install grunt globally because what if you know I was saying we release a new version of grunt back with the way we used to do it If we updated jas hint and so you'd have grunt installed globally And you have one project using that and then you create another project and you wanted to use the latest grunt So you'd update your global grunt to be the latest version you specify You know you use that in your project And then when you go back to the other project to use it it's you it's expecting the older version of grunt But you've got the latest one installed globally and maybe the jas hint built in task can change since then and all of a sudden Things are breaking. We actually ran into this a few times So we realized that because you can only have one version installed globally at a time you can't Then all of your projects have to be on the same version all the time, which is not practical So we realized that just like what npm Officially recommends they say you should install all of your stuff locally to your project and that way It's like your version is locked in when you go to a new project It just uses that version the one that's installed locally, etc so grunt gets installed locally to your project now Same with all the plugins So if like this project uses grunt 0.40 and grunt can trip jas hint 0 1 1 But another project uses grunt 0 3 17 and a different version of jas hinder the one that's built in Each one will have their own dev dependencies and you will never run into any conflicts And so the problem is is like when you install grunt Locally, then you don't get grunt in your path. You can't just go to the command line and type grunt And so we created a separate tool called grunt cli and all that does is if you're in a project folder It finds the local grunt And runs it That's all it does and so i'll just show an example of this just so you can see and i'll make my terminal super big although there's a limit to how big I can make it because Okay, so if I actually i'll go over to grunt folder itself of a few grunt plugins here, okay, so So Someone said like oh, why don't you add a at some of your path that would just load the locally installed grunt and From where it is locally and that's a people recommend that the problem is is uh If you're in a sub directory like let's just say the grunt binary was installed in like dot slash Node module slash bin slash grunt So if i'm in the root directory of my folder, I could actually do this and it would work just fine But what if I was in a sub directory if I was in like CD test I was in there now in order to to run that the same relative command would be uh dot dot Slash node module slash bin slash grunt So it'd be that and so if I wanted to handle all the Possibilities of all the sub directors I might want to be and I'd have to prepend a lot of things to my path to make sure That the correct the the binary would work Um, and so instead of that we made this grunt thing that goes in your path everywhere That no matter where you run a phone if I type grunt it's going to work if I go into a sub folder, you know, uh Let's see fixtures Expand I run grunt from here It's going to work if you wanted that kind of functionality with prepending that path Dot slash node module slash dot bin to your path you'd actually need to specify Like dot slash node modules and dot dot slash node modules and dot dot slash dot dot slash and it would be ridiculous And so I haven't seen anyone else do this approach what we're doing with grunt cli But we love it. I mean it's awesome because it it's it just allows that to be smart We don't have to muck around with our path. It works on windows and os 10 and linux. It's just I don't know and all the cli does if you look at the source code. It's very simple It just finds uses nodes on require system to find the local grunt and just runs that grunt from the from the root directory Someone's also asking about grant in it and uh, you know, I think You've been working with the yeoman team too on that Do you have a problem with grunt? Yeah, well, so first of all grunt in it if I go in one new folder here And so I've already got grunt dash in it installed globally. I did an npm install dash g grunt in it. Uh, and so if I uh make the sample Thing Okay, and I type grunt dash knit and I'll choose. Uh, I've actually got a number of plugins grunt in it templates installed um Which you can see on my grunt init folder Okay, I've got common j s Points these are there's sim links point to where I developed them so that I don't have to worry about you could just clone them directly into this Folder that all the readings show exactly what to do. But so like the jQuery one. I'll make a jQuery plugin Right, so I'll do inside of my folder glint init uh jQuery And it's going to ask me some questions. It's going to give me some text. It will look much better if you're, uh I don't know normal size It's kind of meant to work with ad columns So I'm just not going to answer these questions. I'll use the defaults And what it's going to do Is it's going to generate some files and then it's going to say initialize from template You should now install project dependencies with npm install after that you can run grunt if I run grunt right now It's going to say I can't find the local grunt That's because when I look in this project folder I haven't run npm install. There's no node modules, right?  So npm install dash dash silent Yeah, yeah, I don't really recommend that because I want people to see the errors If they happen, but so it's it's installing everything. It's downloading phantom j s which the jQuery plugin template uses Um, and so you can see that it's installed grunt all the plugins and if we look In the node modules folder, we can see that all those guys are installed there now when I run grunt It's going to do everything it needed to do now if I were to edit The grunt file I'll do it in nano right now just because uh, I don't want to have to switch to a different screen And go down here and I like it's not so excited just comment out one of these like I'll comment out concat And when I run grunt, it's going to say warning task concat not found And so if if you uh That's that would that's what would happen if you don't specify you've got the local npm module not found that would uh I mean possibly if I were to try to like just in here their foo equals require foo which doesn't exist and then uh Glunt So cannot find module foo, uh, you know, if you don't have it specified inside of your package json Let's see The package json we can see that depth dependencies here are specified If you're if your foo thing isn't specified as a depth dependency when you do npm Assault won't be downloaded and you'll get an error about npm modules not being able to be found so Uh, you have to tell npm what to install in the package json file and this is all like we wrote a whole Getting started guide for grunt which talks about all of these things as well So Hopefully hopefully that helps answer those questions about npm and it and uh, yeah yeoman those guys are working on new version Yeoman used to be kind of a lightweight wrapper around glunt and its Old init task with some fancy ascii art that looked like a butler attached to it And uh, we've been talking the grunt team and yeoman team been talking about how we can make it Make things more intrapable operable moving forward and uh, so what we've done is uh Yeoman is no longer wrapping grunts. It's a whole separate thing You don't run yeoman to like run your tasks in your project. You just use grunt. So you use yeoman I think they have a tool called yo now. I haven't actually had time to look at it They're just releasing their latest beta out there You use the yo tool and give it like the name of a template or generator that they're calling them to build out Your project structure and then once that's done that will build on a package json in the grunt file for you And then you would do an npm install just like grunting it grunting it builds all that stuff out for you Then you do an npm install then you use grunt And so if a yeoman generator Uses npm and grunt then it'll create a package json file and a grunt file for you and you run npm install If it doesn't Then you will Use something else whatever that particular generator records Um, it seems like a good time to kind of start talking a little bit more about though the future of grunt Point about yeoman and how this would have like Changing some things up and obviously at o4 grunt's not and you not finished. So like what's next? You've already had a pretty big release, but you know, it's not too early to Kind of give us a hint about what's coming for the future. Yeah, what's next we've actually This has been kind of spearheaded by tyler a little bit. We've been Working on trying to create a more standard Specification that's not grunt specific Called a node task and the idea is that There's a Right now we've got grunt. We've got all these contra plugins that we need to maintain And so like let's just say you use jshint On the command line you can npm install dash g jshint and you can use jshint to uh To to linch your files and then you can jshint also has a little uh a lib that you could Programmatically use it like this is what grunt does is programmatically uses the jshint lib to lend files You know in javascript to run it so the thing is like jshint maintains the lib But like we maintain the grunt task and they maintain the cli it used to actually be a separate project Uh, it's there's it there's a lot of different people maintaining a lot of different things. And so using jshint for example um we want to We want to not be the people maintaining The thing that is effectively the grunt plugin. We want to just maintain grunt And also we want to allow other tools than grunt to be able to use these uh plugins And so we don't the grunt grunt plugins. They're too heavily tied into grunt what we've been working on is creating a standard for uh, basically like interoperability between these common things where like you say If your jshint task was something you passed it a list of files and some options Then it would just do what it needed to do with those. Um, and then if your uh Coffee script compilation task is you pass it a list of files But instead of just a list of source files to do it You pass it a list of like objects where each object had a source and a destination property And so it would know hey compile this source to this destination Then compile this source to this destination go through the list and you can specify options there and we find most of time it's really like a list of files And some options sometimes there is no list of files Sometimes it's a list of just source files. Sometimes it's source and destination But either way we found a lot of similarities in these common things And so if we can come up with a standard specification for how people can actually pass in the list of files and the options and then uh come up with a standard specification for how um, these tasks Can communicate with the thing that's running them like admitting events in a standard way like grunt might take those events That are admitted and use them to log output for example And then throwing exceptions and doing stuff like that and uh, we want to implement it with promises And we've just been talking about like just a general specification that and then then The jshint guys could actually maintain their the jshint Node tags if they wanted to and then anybody grunt anyone else could just use them We don't have to maintain it and it's a standard way like I mean There's a lot of standards in node that we use but there isn't like a standard for defining how All of these things communicate with each other like grunt as a task runner. How does grunt actually Use jshint or every single thing is implemented differently. So we have to code a lot of stuff around it And that's why grunt plugins exist. So that's a really big thing. We're talking about we want to make grunt simpler If people can uh create instead of grunt plugins create node tasks Then they're not tied to grunt. They can work with anything which means when we update to a new version of grunt People don't have to rewrite their task Uh, a lot of people building plugins Had pretty much everyone building a plugin for grunt o3 had to update it for o4 And the next version of grunt the next major version Uh, so I say major but it's really the minor but we're pretty 1.0. So 0.5 or something like that There will be another update. Um, that being said if we do it right this time Uh, the way we want to do it, uh now like I say this time hindsight is 2020 If we do that right then You won't ever have to update it again after that. So we're really pushing to create this, uh, node task spec. It's I think it's uh, we have I think under github it might be actually under node task and we're still really just flashing it out right now So if I say github.com slash node task, so this is the or This is the or we don't really have anything super fancy going on right now But and we we're definitely we've Tyler literally just started throwing some ideas together. We've got a lot of talking to you because uh, I've been calling over a lot of things in my mind as I've been working on grunt. Um, so That's that's a really huge thing that we want to do We want to make it easier for people to create these and then you could use them with whatever you want Or just call them programmatically It'll be much easier to test them because you're just calling it passing in arbitrary options Like instead of having to rely on the grunt system to do your testing Like there's so many things like we've learned it's it's funny because nobody had done this in a javascript space Before us and now other people are starting to and we've we've learned a lot So we're trying to work with those people to to figure out how we Do all that make it awesome. By the way, the ll command is an alias that I have set up in my terminal To do an ls-al. It's a long long directory lesson with colors I see that keep seeing the questions coming. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, I keep the questions coming and people will probably Stick around another 15 minutes or so as long as people are curious about what's going on That's so trippy. You see this. I can just I can just share my desktop like why Why wasn't I just sharing my desktop the whole time? Yeah That's so cool So you start by you know Using grunt and creating a grunt file for your project and getting to understand that so the getting started guide on the grunt website is going to get Uh Get you a long way there because we talk about installing the cli If you're working with an existing project right here if you're doing a new project, there's a handful of steps and we explain all Um after that there's a configuring tasks guide, which is the next thing on the list Which is like if you want to actually specify files in a million different ways you can run has you covered Um, and we've even got a sample grunt file. This is something I need to go through I mean we've literally like we needed to release on monday We're still going through the documentation cleaning stuff up So like a sample grunt file will kind of give you a little bit more information about how grunt files are structured Now we've got a guide that we're fleshing out still about creating tasks Uh, we've updated it as much as we can for 0.4, but I think we need to take another pass It gives you a lot of general ideas for creating tasks and some options Um some examples and stuff like that Once you've created a task you're probably creating in your grunt file After that you can actually go um Into like you could break them out in a separate file and use the Use the load tasks uh command in the api docs and take a look uh grunt There's like grunt load tasks and load mpm tasks. So load tasks is an alias For grunt task load tasks and it just tells you it this loads all task files from the specified directory And so you could break stuff out of your grunt file and put it in js files in a tasks directory You've called whatever you want and then just Call this method and it will load them in as if they were plugins Uh, if they're plugins, they actually need to have a specific directory structure and be formatted a certain way Uh, and then you would load them with load npm tasks and you'd install them with npm Now the easiest way to create plugins we we've actually I'll go back to the documentation The creating plugins guide needs to be updated. This is uh, this is kind of old So because uh This documentation is is is a little out of date. So if you look there's a grunt init Grunt plugin template. You just have to install it first. I need to add that into the guide Um, when you install the grunt plugin template, you can create a new plugin. Like I'll go back over here Um, let's see this rm dash rf all this stuff Okay, so uh grunt init Grunt plugin now I've already have the latest grunt plugin thing installed because I wrote it I need to do that for testing do this. It's going to ask a bunch of questions about your your grunt plugin Please don't name your grunt plugin grunt can trip something because those are reserved from our from internal things Um, but anyways, you do that. No, you just do an npm install Oh, I didn't do silence. So you're going to see a lot of stuff um And run grunt Here and it'll actually test the plugin now. There's a very simple sample plugin and all it does is like concatenating some stuff but the whole idea is uh We can see that all right. I've got a whole lot of extra stuff. Um We can see that we've got like our task directory The file in the task directory Uh sample thing would be exactly what you would specify in a task directory in your project So that you could run it with a load tasks Instead of load npm tasks, but sample thing is just the task file I mean you can you'd go in and edit it the sample thing is based off of the name of the folder It's in but if you create a grunt plugin uses the grunt plugin template Um, it would just create the whole structure for you. You've edited to actually make it make sense and then you would You know Commit all that stuff to github and publish it to npm and it would show up the next time Our plugin listing is refreshed from the uh on the website. That's awesome. That's amazingly simple It's very very so I mean the hard part is you writing the code and your unit tests and stuff like that But we've built it out to be really simple in the future um We're planning on getting the uh getting it all ported over to yeoman our our goal is once yeoman is is stable And uh, we get some time to really look at it. Um, we're going to port all of our grunt Init things over to yeoman and deprecate grunt in it. It'll it'll still exist You'll still be able to use it and if someone actually wants to take old take it over and maintain it. That's great but uh You know we're we're trying to put more of our effort into The task stuff and less of our effort into the scaffolding stuff and yeoman They're really working on the scaffolding stuff So it just kind of makes sense for uh for us to get these things ported over there But it's not ready yet and so we needed to launch on monday and so grunting it totally works for them Yeah, and especially if you're creating a new grunt plugin or jQuery plugin also because I do a lot of those There are really great grunting templates for those Well, this seems like a good time to to plug on that. Um, you'll be talking with um, paul irish and jade of thorton at south by southwest about this very thing. Um, yeoman our grunt And that wonderful relationship between the the three The shall we call it the unholy trinity of javascript? Yeah, I uh, I'm not yeah, I know those guys and I've talked to them and I'm not sure like Uh, what exactly we're going to do, but I know we're going to be demoing some of our tools. I'll be demoing grunt there I have no idea where I don't know if you guys have worked at the south by southwest site But if you go to it, there's like literally an excel spreadsheet of things to do every single day. It's like insane Well, I just popped a link into uh into iris if you're interested and um, you know, you're going to be an awesome for the festival and you want to um, see those guys talk about this subject some more and see demos of yeoman and bower and Grunt and you should totally I'll check that out but Well, I think we've been yapping for for a while then I could keep going forever You guys all have to like, you know, do other things Supposedly That's what they do work day for for some people. Yeah, I guess it's not not everybody gets to just hang out on the internet and chat like us Yeah, yeah, like we do this all the time like, you know, whatever um, so anyways like if you guys want to get involved uh with grunt development or plugins or want to be involved in node task or anything Come to the grunt channel in irc. So irc.freenode.net pound grunt is the channel the official grunt channel um, we have a bot there that that every time there's an issue posted or a commit Sometimes it gets a little busy, but we actually see it in the channel. So we know what's going on A lot of people helping out And there it's not just me. So don't like private message me like There are like, I don't even touch the contrip plugins. Honestly other than to give my feedback Those are maintained by tyler and uh, his group uh, cal robinson, cindersoras, jared overton We've got A lot a lot of people helping out Yeah, the the the the the grunt helper guys all the all the people that seriously make it possible for me to not go completely insane Like it's I did that you you do on a boku level that those guys do on a grunt level Um, so check out the website if you notice any issues in the documentation There certainly are some we we're working on the docs file file a pull request or an issue or something like that And we'll fix the docs like uh, so just contribute however you can The only thing I ask is that just please be nice Because uh, because mean people suck.  I think yeah, totally and um, also as a matter of course you can always hang out with us in I receive because you know, just we're encouraging people to talk with us here today But we're there all the time. So anytime you have a question Together on one screen. Yeah, look it. I'm over here now. Hi everyone. See how that happened. I know it's like That was technology. We're we're actually different Over here. Yeah, we're we're in totally different Countries right now Uh, so thanks again for joining us. Um, we do boku on here every, you know, three or four weeks or so And some things it's a lot of fun. Hope you enjoyed it. Um, and we will uh See you next time. Thanks Ben. Thank you. Jory. Yay. Bye. Bye