At Audiology Associates of Prestonsburg, you can live your life the way you want and find the freedom of better hearing. You'll experience patient care that is specific to you with exceptional follow-up care that ensures your hearing and balance needs are being met. Audiology Associates at 1428 Northlake Drive in Prestonsburg. A warm lunch can touch someone's day and the volunteers at Grace Fellowship Church in Pikeville have made it part of their mission to provide that warm meal to people who may need it. Well, every Monday and every Thursday we serve free meals to the community between 11 and 1. So today we're having a delicious meal of potato soup, homemade grilled cheese sandwiches, homemade cookie bars and a drink. But we do this every week, every Monday and Thursday, serving a free meal to our community. Bailey says that people wishing to get the free lunches for themselves and their families must visit the church because currently they don't have the amount of volunteers that would be needed for delivery services. We're always in need of volunteers. It's multifold what the need is. You know, there's need on the day of to come and actually serve the meals between 11 and 1. There's prep work that's involved, you know, setting up the tables. You know, there's a cleanup afterwards. They're preparing meals. So there's a lot that's involved in serving a free community meal. I think sometimes the misconception is you come in at 11 o'clock, you start volunteering, you leave at 1 and that's it. And that's great, but there are much greater needs beyond that. So if someone is interested and they feel drawn, called to want to volunteer and be a part, you can private message me and we'll go from there and discuss how we can get you plugged in. For questions about the lunch or to reach out if you want to volunteer, you can message Grace Fellowship Church on Facebook, or you can visit the church at 115 Wilford Street in Pikeville. With Mountain Top News, I'm Cody Davis.


It's important to stay hydrated when you're doing a marathon. Drink to thirst. Take a drink when you need to. You don't need to guzzle it. Carry with you, take a few sips. Then when you're done, carefully get rid of it.


ond 5 alcohol support service, supporting 5ers for 40 years. The debate will be concluded without any questions being put, and I would ask those who wish to speak in the debate to press the requested speak buttons now. I call on David Torrance to open the debate for around seven minutes, please, Mr Torrance. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I would like to thank my colleagues who have supported the motion, allowing the invaluable work of 5 alcohol support services over the last 40 years to be debated today. I would also like to congratulate Fass on reaching this significant milestone and to welcome board members, staff and volunteers who have travelled through to Parliament today to join us here in the public gallery. Alcohol and drug issues are ingrained in our lifestyles and are part by a result of social changes and modern day pressures. Addictions and abuses are not the same thing, and addiction to alcohol is a physiological dependence on alcohol that consists of continued compulsive drinking, with individuals becoming physically dependent. Alcohol abusers, on the other hand, are typically heavy drinkers who may not drink consistently, but when they do, the effects from such a high level of consumption can have serious consequences on their own personal safety and their relationships with loved ones and families. Alcohol abuse can, however, lead to dependency. According to the Scottish Health Survey from 2017, one in four people drink that hards at this or harmful levels. That is defined as drinking more than 14 units or roughly seven pints per week. In over two-fifths, 42 per cent of violent crime, the victim says that the offender was under the influence of alcohol. There were 36,235 alcohol-related hospital stays in 2016-17, and 24,060 people in Scotland had at least one admission in hospital with alcohol-related condition. In 2017, alcohol caused 1,235 deaths, a reduction of 2 per cent from 2016. However, despite the decrease, 2017 had the third highest annual total since 2010. The facts and figures relating to economic and human cost of alcohol, misuse within Fife, are also startling. 2,344 hospital stays last year, with the rates of stays being six times greater among those living in the most deprived areas, and the average of 62 deaths a year, with the rates being three times greater among the most living in deprived areas. In total, alcohol-related harm is estimated to cost Fife £130 million per year. As the figures show, there is a never-increasing need for alcohol and drug support within Fife, and the role of alcohol in our society and our relationship continues to change. Fife Alcohol Support Services Fast, based in Kirkcaldy, was established in 1977 to provide a community-based alcohol counselling service for individuals, family and friends who are affected by alcohol problems. Back then, FFAS was a council on alcohol, one of the 30 or so similar organisations that spans Scotland, each with a mission to address the health and social consequences of excessive alcohol use. The original councils on alcohol were founded during the 60s in Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee. Recognition must be given to the late John Balfour, who was instrumental in the creation of FFAS. In 1973, John joined the newly formed Scottish Council for Alcohol, for which he served as an office bearer for many years and is better known today as Alcohol Folk of Scotland. The charity, known in 1977 as a local council for alcohol for Fife, broke new ground by setting up counselling and support for the use of alcohol problems for many years and was the only service available outside Alcohol Anonymous that provided for the needs of vulnerable adults suffering from the effects of alcohol, misuse and addiction. John Balfour's involvement with FFAS continued until his passing in May 2009. He served as a chairman for 25 years until he retired in 2002 and then became the only president for the charity. Staff and volunteers remember him fondly and attest to his great dignity and humanity and his strong belief to always do the right thing, especially when times are difficult. Since its inception in 1977, the amazing staff and volunteers of FFAS have observed John's principles and have continued to progress the charity by responding to a changing role and influence of alcohol within our society. In 1995, FFAS was supported by NHS Fife and introduced its alcohol counselling service in primary care. The charity was one of the very first services to do so. The event marked the beginning of a considerable growth for the counselling service as it responded to awareness of extent and damage of alcohol related problems and the community need for a reliable source of help. Over the years, working in partnership with organising, including many third sector organisations, Police Scotland, Fife division, NHS services and Fife community drug service, with which it merged within 2015, FFAS has delivered a number of key initiatives such as projects and treatment programmes that have been hugely influential and extremely effective in helping to tackle the ever-increasing problems that are faced by the result of alcohol and drug related problems. The measure of the partnership between FFAS and FCDS created an organisation with scope to serve the needs of an ever-increasing range of issues, with even greater organisational efficiency and increased capacity for responsive improvement and changes. These days, FFAS has a multifaceted, comprehensive approach to addressing the tackle and tackling alcohol and drug harm through the four main services, alcohol support services, community drug services, adapt substance recovery, and the current club network. Each of those high-quality and professional services provides a vital and unique approach that serves to complement and enhance. The alcohol support service provides specialist alcohol counselling, and the work is facilitated by counsellors who are predominantly volunteers, six staff and 15 volunteers dealt with 616 referrals during 2017-18. The community drug service provides specialist help for both individuals and families concerned about the use of substances, ranging from cocaine and ecstasy to new psychoactive substances, NPS or legal highs. Outreach support is provided through crisis counselling, advocacy and mentoring. Adapt substance recovery is a main drug and alcohol triage service in Fife, providing assessment for need and referral to specialist drug and alcohol services, with the most significant number of referrals to the service being self-referos by clients and family members. The newest addition to the network is the current club, introduced in 2016 and funded by a national lottery through a big lottery fund. Its groups provide support to people who have become socially isolated as a result of living with a range of challenging issues. The club runs throughout Fife and offers a supportive environment for people who are isolated or lonely, while acting as a partner organisation to front-line services such as mental health and drugs and alcohol services. Loneliness and isolation have been an emerging social issues over recent years and have isolated their very different issues. It is very important to recognise and understand the differences between them to ensure that appropriate support is given as it can both have a huge adept mental effect on individuals' physical health and mental wellbeing. It was a fantastic to learn that only last month the project secured funding of £350,000 from the big lottery funds and proving life programmes. The funding will allow a group to further develop their work and expand into other areas in Fife. In conclusion, Presiding Officer, I believe that the importance of FFAS and the work we do day in and day out cannot be overstated. On behalf of the 23,000 Fifers and their families whose lives have been so greatly impacted by the wonderful work of FFAS staff and volunteers, both past and present, I would like to offer my heartfelt thanks for a 40-year-long life-changing contribution to a local community. I look forward to coming to work with them and wishing them a happy birthday and every success in continuing to create positive pathways for many more Fifers in the future. We move now to the open debate and speeches of around four minutes, please. Claire Baker followed by Annabelle Ewing. Thank you for calling me at this time, Presiding Officer. It is a pleasure to recognise the work of Fife alcohol support service this evening, recognising that this is their 40th year of service, and I thank David Torrance for securing the debate. I wish to apologise for having to leave the chamber early due to a family commitment, but I will look at the official report tomorrow with interest, particularly the minister's response. For many years, FFAS has been a leading provider of counselling and psychotherapy for people in Fife with alcohol-related problems. Following a merger with Fife community drug service in 2015, FFAS provide a community drug service that offers outreach support in the community for people with drug-related problems. As well as providing support for people struggling with addiction and working with them to address underlying causes and consequences, FFAS can provide support to families and friends who are trying to cope. Too often, people struggling with alcohol and substance abuse do not receive much public sympathy. They can be isolated as family networks are damaged by their addiction, and it can often take a while for them to acknowledge that they have a problem. Organisations like FFAS provide a valuable service to often very vulnerable people. Their ADAPT service is a triage service supporting those struggling with alcohol or substance misuse issues into the best treatment that is available in Fife, supporting people to change their lives. They also offer a focus on encouraging rehabilitation and expanding carny clubs, as referred to by David Torrance, to help people who are suffering social isolation to find their way back into community life. It is good to see their recent award from the big lottery fund. I recently attended the Fife alcohol support service AGM at the townhouse in Cacodau. That was an opportunity to reflect on the past 40 years, and Jim Bet, the service manager at FFAS, highlighted the importance of the charities' volunteer counsellors, who have been serving the people of Fife for 40 years. During this time, the service has trained 200 volunteer counsellors. Jim highlighted that more than 23,000 Fifers have approached FFAS's counselling services for help, since it began operating. The AGM concluded with a very moving personal experience from a former client, who recounted his harrowing journey of a drug addiction that has almost resulted in his death and his journey to recovery with the help of the charities' community drug service. His story highlighted the devastating impact that drug and alcohol abuse has had on so many families, resulting in often lifelong and lasting issues. I want to go back to the number of users who have access to the service, 23,000. 23,000 people in Fife who have needed support and help from this service. Those people often identified as vulnerable, with a high percentage of those suffering with poor mental ill health, who often come from underlying traumas. I would like to highlight the pressures that the wider mental health services in Fife are facing. I know that Fife health and social care partnership work extremely hard and our developing programmes focus on early intervention, on group therapy programmes and additional clinical time. However, the services are stretched, with people having to wait too long for the help that they need, and too often the voluntary sector is left to pick up the pieces of strained NHS services. It is clear that there is an urgent need for a centralised, joined-up approach, and a solution that could possibly be is the addition of a mental health centre in Fife, where those who are suffering with mental health issues can be properly assessed and referred to the appropriate services. Often, the voluntary sector provision is the correct response, but, like the NHS, it is one that needs to be provided with the funding that reflects their crucial role and makes sure that it can deliver the service to everyone who needs it. This week, the focus for FFAS is promoting safe drinking through the festive season. The service has issued guidelines with advice on practical steps to ensure that those who are drinking throughout the party season take the necessary steps to stay safe, demonstrating their commitment to promoting prevention and awareness. FFAS is a valuable service for people in Fife, treating everyone as a valued human being and supporting people through difficult times in their life. I would like to thank them for all the work that they do and I am pleased to see it being recognised in Parliament this afternoon. Annabelle Ewing, followed by Alexander Stewart. Thank you, Presiding Officer, and I would like to congratulate my colleague David Torrance at MSP on securing this important debate this afternoon, for which this gives us the opportunity in our Parliament to shine a light on the important work that the Fife Alcohol Support Service carries out right across Fife, including in my constituency of Cowdenbeath. As we have heard, there are a number of important strands to the work of FFAS, and it has its roots as a provider of volunteer alcohol counselling services dating back to 1978. FFAS has seen, as we have heard, some 200 volunteer alcohol counsellors over that period with some of those counsellors going on to become leading figures in alcohol and drug service delivery in Fife and beyond. To this day, FFAS maintains a team of some 15 volunteers who all receive extensive training and support that can take up to some three years to complete. Those skilled volunteers deliver effective interventions for vulnerable people, suffering from a range of alcohol-related problems. As we have heard since 1995, FFAS has also provided alcohol counselling services in primary care across Fife. It started out its important involvement in primary care with participation in just some six practices, and now FFAS provides alcohol and substance misuse counselling in some 30 surgeries, health centres and hospitals throughout Fife. FFAS added substance misuse services to its co-activities, further to partnering with the five community drug services in a project in 2011 called ADAT. The project provided a range of supportive help for people in need, including access to services through recovery clinics, structured alcohol or drug counselling and through diversion from prosecution, a scheme that ran until 2017, with more than 6,500 referrals being received from Police Scotland. I would probably like to know why the scheme is not still running, and I will be seeking to find that out, because it sounds to me that that scheme was doing a very good job indeed. As we have also heard FFAS in the five community drug service merit in 2015, and the ADAT service continues, and is indeed the primary alcohol and drug triage service in Fife for people with opiate recreational drug and alcohol problems. In the round, some 850 vulnerable people each year are helped, and its success lies, I believe, in the fact that FFAS recognises the complex needs of individuals, perhaps living chaotic lifestyles with no family or particular professional support. A recent development has seen FFAS introduce, as David Torrance says, what are called Kearney clubs, which are designed to help people who are suffering from isolation and loneliness, perhaps due to health issues, including alcohol and drug problems, or perhaps due to bereavement, or perhaps due to unemployment, or perhaps due to all three of them. Kearney club support workers help people to build social skills and confidence, and so far over 240 people have been helped. I am pleased to know that there is a Kearney club in Cowdenbeath, and that FFAS is supporting and has been supporting an excellent new initiative called Our We Cafe in Kelty, which I had the pleasure to visit some weeks ago. It is perhaps worth noting that Kearney clubs were recognised by Fife Voluntary Action this year with a super start-up award. As we have heard, happily in November, a further three years funding was received from the big lottery, so I would like to say, Presiding Officer, I am very well done to all involved in securing such funding. It is not an easy task, and it really is a credit to all involved. Is it clear that the Fife alcohol support service plays a pivotal role in tackling alcohol and drug problems in Fife and has done for many years? It is a great credit to the founders of this charity and to the current board, staff and volunteers that their interventions have made such a difference to so many people who were in need of a bit of help. I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to each and every one of them and to thank them for all that they have done. I wish FFAS continuing success and to stand ready as MSP for Cowdenbeath to help in any way that I can to ensure that this important work can continue to make a difference to so many individuals and families right across Fife. I am delighted to have the opportunity to take part in today's debate and pay tribute to David Torrance for bringing this debate to the chamber this evening. As we have already heard, Fife alcohol support services provide a Fife-wide community-based confidential one-to-one alcohol counseling service for individuals and their families who are affected by alcohol problems. For 40 years, FFAS has delivered this counseling and also provided psychotherapy services for individuals across that. I welcome those who have turned out today to be part of the debate and are here in the chamber to support it and also in the gallery. The charity provides specialist help for people with a drink problem related to issues that may be underlying and that could be having a regular or a binge drinking issue. We have already heard some of the facts and figures about what happens in Fife and the difficulties that some of those individuals are encountering and the trauma that leads them to some of that drink problem. The charity is there to extend a helping hand on a personal level, on a family level, on a social level, on an employment level and a lifestyle issues level. Those are all vitally important to identify and try to ensure that the individuals are given the support that they require. The counseling and the information provided is there to maintain effective relationships with relevant organisations to ensure that they get the support that they require across the piece. They also provide community-based counseling services designed to meet special needs of those affected by alcohol-related problems. Moreover, as you have already heard, there is a large number of volunteers who have given of their time and their talent to ensure that counseling is taking place. That is providing the information, the education, the training and the research with regard to prevention and early diagnosis that gives individuals the best opportunity for them to have intervention-related problems with rape. We have also heard that 23,000 fifers have had the support from that. That is an enormous amount of individuals. In each case, it is quite tragic in some ways that the individuals found themselves at that situation and needing that support, but they were given that support by the organisation and that has helped them to get back on the right path. That is, in itself, a huge contribution to the community. It was three years ago that the drug services embraced and they became part of that process, where they joined forces together to tackle alcohol and substance misuse problems. We have already heard about the current clubs that they have within and that FAS has employed dedicated project workers to identify loneliness and isolation. Both of those conditions make individuals sometimes turn to the drink or have the opportunity to find themselves at a loeb, and that seems to be a release for them. It is worth mentioning that the exceptional work that they have had has been awarded by the national lottery. In 2016, they received £149,750 from the big lottery, a massive amount of money for them to help to set up network for adults to help them to connect with their local communities through their conny clubs. That was followed in October when they received more than £350,000. Those amounts of money that have already been mentioned are hard to obtain, but for them to obtain such large sums proves that they are hitting the mark and getting the opportunity to fund and be funded by organisations to ensure that they are given something back to the communities that they represent. By setting up action plans and making sure that they are realistic, that they can be achievable and the regular monitoring that goes on, FAS has done a huge amount of work, and they have punched above their weight. In conclusion, Fife Alcohol Support Services has been an invaluable resource to Fife, as well as a great help to many individuals. I commend and congratulate all who are making such an effort and such a difference in supporting individuals who are at risk. The organisation goes the extra mile, it has gone the extra mile and it deserves the accolades and recognition of a debate in the chamber this afternoon. The last of the open debate contributions is from Brian Whittle. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I add my thanks to David Torrance for bringing this debate to the chamber. I will make it once again to shine a light on what is a very important subject, especially at this time of year. I mentioned before that earlier on in my time in this place, I had to spend some time with that action looking to see if I could speak with some of their service users as part of that initial preventative health investigation, sort of early intervention. I wanted to look at what had to get back to the sort of brass tax of what maybe had set them along that path and maybe what other choices had been available to them at that time. Let me tell you, Deputy Presiding Officer, that was a real eye opener. Those in recovery had suggested to me that I was under the misapprehension that they would have had a really terrible time. On the contrary, to start with, they said that they were having a great time. They were down the pub with their mates. Mary was maybe not the exact word that they used, but I am sure that you get the gist, Deputy Presiding Officer. That could go on for as much as a few years before their life really started to unravel—losing their job, their family, their house and finally their so-called friends down the pub. Where they got their next drink became the real driving force in their lives to the exclusion of everything else. That, Deputy Presiding Officer, is a very isolated and lonely place to be, and once in that cycle it is extremely difficult to break. With addiction comes not only the mental health issues associated with it, said addiction, but more often than not there is an underlying mental health issue that takes them down that path in the first place. However, another issue that arose consistently was that some mental health services would not engage with those still in the grips of their addiction, so that is sent to the third sector agencies tasked with tackling that addiction. The problem of that, of course, is that addiction agencies are generally not equipped to deal with complex mental health problems, and although they will never turn those cases away, the chances of successful outcomes without the mental health intervention alongside the addiction services are much reduced. Many of those cases are people who are struggling because of trauma and poor mental health, and without that multi-agency support for the individual plan, conversion rates can be poor. For rural areas such as the constituencies that I represent, that trauma can go unseen until it becomes a major issue. The other issue that I wanted to mention was the recent reports that the lowering of the alcohol limit for driving has initially, at least, not had the results that we had all hoped. I do not necessarily think that that should come as a surprise, but I think that reducing the alcohol drink limit to people who would be most affected by the policy are likely to be those who would be considering popping into the pub for a swift pint or a glass of wine after work with colleagues. They would recognise that the new laws would likely put them close to it or beyond the legal limit and would most likely just forgo that afterward drink or at least replace it with a soft drink. However, for those who would get behind the wheel of a car after a few drinks, they are highly unlikely to pay attention to any change in that legal limit. Those who would have been caught by the police for drink driving prior to the tightening up of the laws would still be prepared to take that risk. Reducing the legal driving limits in itself is not enough. To be effective, a long-term public campaign needs to accompany that change in legislation. Furthermore, an on-going educational programme with policies to tackle the underlying drivers of alcohol and substance abuse needs to be in evidence. We had a debate in this place on drug and alcohol strategy recently with some very good inputs from across the chamber. I think that conversation needs to continue and to evolve into positive action. I have long been an advocate of the need to support the third sector in a more collaborative approach alongside the NHS and council-led services. David Torrance rightly highlights the great work that is going on in his constituency. I would like to thank the fantastic work that is being done in East Ayrshire by many third sector agencies and our NHS against a backdrop of limited resource. To conclude, I suggest that addiction is a health issue and that I know that we will continue to get support from across the chamber. I call Joe FitzPatrick to respond to the debate for around seven minutes, please. First of all, I can add my congratulations to David Torrance for securing tonight's debate and taking the opportunity to place on record my thanks to FAS and all their staff who have been providing treatment and support services to the people right across FIFERS as we have heard for over 40 years. I add my welcome to those from FAS who are in the gallery with us tonight. The motion specifically focuses on FAS, but it would be remiss of me if I didn't also draw attention to the many other organisations that are working across Scotland who undertake similar work. There is excellent work taking place in communities right across Scotland to support those who are among the most vulnerable in our society. I haven't yet had a chance to visit FAS, but I'm sure that any of the FIF members might have an invite coming in the post soon, and I'd be keen to take that up if so invited. However, I have had the opportunity to meet and been fortunate enough to meet, of course. I thought that you were going to refuse, minister. I would say that I better not try that on all the FIFers. I do believe that FAS is AGM—I do believe that FAS is AGM is on 29 August next year, and they would like you to be a guest speaker. I'm sure that you've put the invite through the usual methods. If that's an invitation that comes in and I'm able to take it up, depending on other diary commitments, then it would be something that I'd be keen to do. However, whether it's at the AGM or another opportunity, I'd be keen to visit FAS and see first-hand the work that they are doing first-hand. I have had the opportunity, however, to visit a number of other organisations across Scotland who are to speak to the staff and to people who are benefiting from treatment and support services. A couple that I particularly want to talk about today have recently visited the Cairn Centre in Dundee, which is where we launched the drug and alcohol strategy. It was refreshing to speak to individuals who benefited directly from that service. I was able to also speak to some parents and partners of people who benefited from the service to see just how important that support had been for them. Another group that I was particularly impressed with—I have met several other groups—was the family addiction support service in Glasgow. It was really powerful to hear directly from parents and partners who had been in the main lost family members or who had family members who were still receiving treatment from various addictions, whether alcohol or drugs. It is really powerful for me, as Minister, to be able to get those first-hand experiences so that I can make sure—and we always, as MSPs, can make sure that our policies are fit for purpose. The one message that I have taken back from visiting those organisations is that those services are really important and the importance of those services cannot be underestimated. The role that they play is crucial in providing vital support for people in our communities that need it most. As I mentioned, when I visited the Cairn Centre just over two weeks ago, it was to launch the Scottish Government's new alcohol and drug strategy. A key aspect of that strategy recognises that in general services, services need to do more to better meet the needs of those who are most at risk. That will, in part, involve taking a person-centred approach so that treatment and support addresses people's wider needs. There has been some talk from Clare Baker and Brian Whittle about why high addiction is very often not an isolated issue that people have to deal with. Mental health, isolation, employability and homelessness are all issues that are there as well. I was particularly interested to hear from Alexander Stewart that the service in Fife had extended to start looking at isolation and loneliness and helping people to reconnect with their communities. I think that that is really important. I recently took part in the sleep in the park in Dundee at Sleisher Gardens, and I was able to spend some time speaking to Addaction, which Brian Whittle has also mentioned. To hear about the complexities of addictions, it is clear that homelessness is something that goes hand-in-hand and it can be very difficult for people to start to challenge addictions if they do not have a regular place to lay their head at night. It is refreshing that we have the opportunity to reflect on the positive work that is going on in Fife alcohol support services and elsewhere as they work to support vulnerable individuals struggling with drug and alcohol use. The aspects of the work that focus on addressing loneliness and social isolation, which we know, as I have said, go hand-in-hand with harmful drug and alcohol use. Through the debate, it was really interesting. A number of people, David Torrance first and others mentioned the huge number of people that was supported by 23,000 people. David put it in that life-changing contribution from the service in FAS. Claire Baker also mentioned the fact that she had moved into extending the services to include drug services, which I think is really important because a lot of the challenges in relation to addiction are very similar, whether it is drug or alcohol. Importantly, Claire Baker also mentioned that for many people who are suffering from addiction, there is a lack of sympathy from the public. That is one of the things that, from speaking from people who are currently or previously going through addiction, the stigma that is attached is such a barrier to people being able to seek the help and support. That means that people at FAS have to go that step further to try to find people to be able to provide that support. I guess that my message from today would be to people as we move into the festive season, just to try and be a little bit more human. If someone has an addiction, just try and see them as a human being and just a little bit of loving compassion can go an awful long way. We see that with the 200 volunteer counsellors that Annabelle Ewing talked about working out of over 30 locations right across Fife. Those are people who are giving of their own time as we heard in order to help others, and that is really important. I was interested here from Annabelle Ewing that the number of people who have helped each year has gone up to something like around 850 people. That is a lot of people every year, and I am sure that that is making a real difference. This is a topic that I am sure we will come back to on many occasions. Today's debate was about recognising the work that has taken place in Fife over the past 40 years and highlighting some good examples or good practice across the chamber. As I have said two weeks ago when we talked about the drug and alcohol partnership, that is something that we should be working together on. I am very pleased to work with people across the chamber. If there are MSPs who want to meet me to discuss how we can work together on this, please make contact. I am really keen to do that and to take that forward so that we can make a difference for so many vulnerable people across Scotland. In conclusion, I want to again congratulate David Torrance on securing this debate and fast on providing over 40 years vital treatment and support services and wish them a very happy birthday. That concludes the debate, and this meeting is closed.


All right guys, here we go. Oh, baby. Just keep spinning. Just keep spinning, spinning, spinning. All right, guys, final reveal. This is what it looks like. It looks so sick. Yo, all these. Look at all this. Just all this going on. Let's go.


Everybody, we're back. This is Dave Vellante at wikibon.org and I'm here with my co-host, David Floyer. This is theCUBE, SiliconANGLE's continuous production of EMC World 2013. This is our fourth year here. This is day two for us. We are unpacking Viper. We're going deep with the technical folks within the EMC's Advanced Software Division. And we're going to have the business outcome as well. But we're here with Manuvir Das who is the Vice President of Engineering for the Advanced Software Division and with a focus on the object parts of the portfolio. Manuvir, welcome to theCUBE. Thank you, it's great to be here. Yeah, so object is an interesting topic, right? It's one that people get excited about. There was a lot of interest in the industry and then a lot of starts and stops, but nonetheless the object train keeps moving on. I mean, people believe it's the future of the business. Before we get into it, first of all I want to say congratulations on getting Viper out. Thank you. A lot of your work is yet to be done based on what you heard today from David Gouldin. Yes. But nonetheless the covers are off and now you're feeder to the fire and it's good, right? I mean it's all goodness. So talk a little bit about your role and then I want to really get into the object piece. Right, so I'm basically responsible for the object products of the EMC which includes the platforms that we already have which is Atmos and Centera which are being used fairly widely by our customers today as well as the data services in Viper which is object and HDFS that David Gouldin and Amitabh talked about. Yeah, so let's take it back. I mean, Centera's been around forever and of course post-NRON, it got a nice boost when people had to deal with compliance and things of that nature and so I was to say object's been around for a while but can we do a little object 101 for people that might not be familiar with it? This is a complicated situation for a lot of people who might be new to this business or the sort of Wall Street Journal CNBC crowd. So yeah, you got file, you got blog, you got object. Give us the object basics. Right, so I think a good reference point for object is actually file. So folks are familiar with file. Object is at a high level, it's very similar to file. The difference is basically that if you think about file systems, right, they were built with a certain envelope in mind as to directory structures, how many items you would have, what the sizes of these items would be. If you look at the semantics of files, it's very much about you do a sequence of operations where you go down the directory structure, you keep locking directories as you go down and so the whole notion of files is basically comes with certain limits to it as to how much you can do, how many things you can do. The whole idea of object was when things like video, et cetera, started to proliferate, right? What you found was firstly you had variety because you had really big things like gigabyte size things, terabyte size things and then you had large numbers of things like billions of objects in one people. If you think about in a file system putting billions of files in one directory, it's just not what you do, right? So object was really designed for a world of limitless scale. That is, I've got a bag of things I want to store, there is no deep structure to them, it's just one massive pool of things. I want to spread it across the globe, I want them to be always available, accessible from anywhere, I want to access them over the web, which means it's not about RPC and NFS and those kinds of interfaces, it's about rest and marshaling things through XML, right? So it's a different design point but at the end of the day, it's still your stuff, right? Can we talk about rest? I mean, that simplifies things, right? So again, for the audience that might not be familiar with it, we'll be talking about this big bag of stuff, you put it and you'll get it. There's basically two things you do, put and get and you do it, the simple way of thinking about a rest is just think HTTP, right? Instead of FTP or TCP, yeah, exactly. And it's just as you said, basically at the heart of it, there's two things, you put objects and you get objects, right? And all the details are about how you do this at scale, how you do large numbers of small things and small numbers of big things all at the same time, right? That's sort of the trend. So a lot of people think, you know, object is the future of storage. Why do people think that? And is that a valid thing to think? Yeah, I think the reason people say that is because the way object systems are designed, if you look at the semantics of object, they are quite relaxed compared to the semantics of file, okay? Firstly, with file, you have this assumption that many parties are going to write the data at the same time, you have contention, you random access into a file and write it at different points, right? So in the object world, you don't have that restriction. The other thing is in the file world, typically you expect really good performance, really low latency. And that's where a lot of the secret sources, if you look at our Isilon product, for instance, which is a scale out NAS, the trick really there is at some level of scale, how do I give you really low latency access to your data so your tier one applications can run? Object lives in a world of HTTP and the web where inherently the latencies you live with are much larger. You're not talking about single unit milliseconds, you're talking about 100 milliseconds. 200 milliseconds is quite acceptable because if you think about a website, say you're an eBay or a Facebook and you're accessing an image which is stored as an object one coast to another coast, you're already talking about 80 milliseconds or whatever round trip, right? So because you live in this world where the semantics are relaxed and the restrictions on latency, et cetera are weaker, you are potentially able to build systems that are much cheaper, right? And so that's really the value of object to provide you humongous amounts of storage at a much lower price point and a much simpler level of management complexity than you have with traditional files. So it's really the only way to deal with this massive amount of storage. It's really the only way to deal with, when you're talking about exabytes and zettabytes of data, yeah, that's the only way. But the disadvantage of that is that it restricts you into the types of application you can write. So it seems on the face of it that it's mainly archiving systems and backup systems and things like that. Is that correct or is it moving in more into the main stream? I'm happy to say that's not correct if you don't mind my saying so, right? So it certainly started that way, right? And that's how people saw it. And then over time as web applications like your e-bays and your Facebooks, et cetera, started using object, they're basically using it as a backing store for tier one applications, right? Now, what you have pointed out though is there's a significant issue here, right? And it's twofold. Number one, the performance of object in terms of latency, et cetera, does not match the performance of file. The second thing is think about traditional applications that have been written to access file data, right? And we know that most of the applications out there in the world today were written before the advent of object, right? So the whole trick here is how do I build a system which can give you two views at the same time? If you're building a next generation application and you want to see the object view, you get that. But if you've got a traditional application that wants to process file, you get that in the same place. So if I can give you the canonical scenario of that, right?  And then I make them available to the community. But my job as the service provider is I have to curate these in some fashion. I have to normalize them to the same size. I have to put watermarks on. You know, I have to do filtering for unacceptable content, et cetera, right? And there's a lot of applications out there. The developers who wrote these applications are actually gone. And the way these applications work is you point it at a file share and they hit that set of files and do curation one after the other, right? Okay, so the kind of workflow you're talking about here is I have a website where users upload their content. That's a page on the web, right? It's HTML. And what I want is an object store, as a backing store, to upload all those videos in, okay? The next step I want to do to all those videos is I want to do this curation. But in order for doing that, I have to turn this set of objects into a file share with a set of files on an NFS device so that my existing applications can run and do the curation. And then after that's done, I'm going to convert this all back into objects and make it available on my website so that people can access. And if you look at even our customers who use our existing object systems today who have this kind of workflow, they literally have two storage silos. They have a storage silo where they have all the object data. That is where they ingest all the user content. Then they run these jobs where they copy all the data into the file store. They run the curation. When it's done, they copy it all back, right? Some people have actually written papers about languages they've invented to control this copy back and forth because it's so complex. And what we've done with Viper is we've said, you know, you just make one API call to Viper saying I want to view this object data as a file share. And we give you an endpoint that you can mount as an NFS endpoint and it's a file share, right? Now the beautiful thing about this, if I can take another minute, is there are certainly object systems out there that give you a file interface that is compatible with NFS. But the problem is all the data is actually going through the object head. There's just sort of a shim on top that makes it look like file, right? So it's really not performant. You can't actually sit there and curate 10,000 files overnight, right? Because of the approach we've taken in Viper where the object layer actually runs on top of a file array underneath. When we expose an object, a set of objects as a file share, it's actually exposed as a native endpoint on the device below that you connect to directly without coming through our object head at all. And so now when you've got a file share and you're accessing those files, you've got blazing performance, right? Whether it's an Icelon or VNX or whatever underneath, you're accessing that array directly. So you're solving the problem, the object problem of having to go and find that object in different places. You're forcing it to be as part of a file system. Yes, and so you get a lot of benefits of the file system, right? With respect to indexing and all. Now, having said that, again, because objects are designed for this geo-scale world where you have trillions of objects and billions of directories and things, at the object level, we have an index structure and a namespace that spreads across the globe, right? And that is beyond the scale limits of what a traditional file system would do. But then once you get the file view and you choose to get the file view, it looks like a traditional file system and all the file level indexing and all the things you do on files just kick in. Right, excellent. So that's why you combine the two together on the Icelon and the Icelon is the file system and then you put the object together. That's right. And I think I'll, Icelon actually fits very well because it is a scale out file system. So it pairs very naturally with Viper. Having said that, we run on actually any file array, right? So whether it's an Icelon or a VNX or even a NetApp device or it doesn't have to be an EMC array. If you've got an NFS endpoint, then Viper object will run on top of it. Okay, and from an object standpoint, you're talking HDFS, S3, and Centera, right? Yes. So talk about those choices a little bit. Yes. So S3 is, I guess more and more people have been using that kind of model, that kind of API model. So we have an API that's compatible with S3, primarily to make sure that the application ecosystem that has been developed already, investments people have made, they don't have to re-target that workload. It can apply directly. We support the Atmos API for the customers out there that are using our own Appmas product. We will support the Centera API. It's a slightly different model because the Centera model is what we call content addressable storage, where the path name of the object is actually an encoding of the data that's in the object itself, right? And that's done for compliance. So we support that model. So those are sort of the models where you think of put get object. And then HDFS is a slightly different model where it feels more like a file, right? And you do read and write the way you do files, but it's a pain only. So you don't do accesses within the middle of the file. It's not what you call the full blown POSIX semantics that you have with NFS. So it's the same data underneath, but HDFS is more like a file system model on objects. Yeah. Okay, and then you'll roll these out later this year, right? Second half of this year. That's right, that's right. So, yes, as soon as I'm done with this interview, you know what I'm doing, back to the code. So what's the reaction been from customers that you've talked to here at the show or otherwise? I think so, we've talked to a number and they're really excited. And I'll tell you a couple reasons why. Number one, I think we have a really clear roadmap of how we take you forward. And that means two things. For folks who have file storage today, how we bring you to the cloud world, like the Isilon customer. You put this layer on top and now you got both worlds. You can be file and you can be object. As well as for existing object customers, folks who are on Centera, Atmos, folks who are using public clouds like S3 or Microsoft's Azure, Viper object is compatible with all of that. And it's a layer that sits on top of that, right? So to give you an example, right? Viper object says, you put as many arrays as you want underneath me and I will spread your object set across those. And an array can be a physical array like an Isilon. It can be an object array like an Atmos. It can be your account in the public cloud, like your Amazon S3 account, right? So you can say, create me a bucket full of objects where part of it is on this on-prem array that I've got in my building. Part of it is in my Amazon S3 account. And you can set policy and our layer, our engine will automatically spread the data across. So you can see how this opens up hybrid tiering kind of scenarios. And to your question about the customer, what has resonated the most with people is anybody who's got a production system, right? And we have this experience also in a past life when we moved production customers to storage, they want an A-B model, right? You don't put all your eggs in the new basket on day one. So I want a model where here's all my existing data. On day one, just take my friends and family. The 100 people who won't care if the data gets lost and just redirect them to the new system. When that's done, I'm going to click the button to say move on. Then the next thing is go to 1%, 5%, 10%, right? So that's sort of built in to how we've designed Viper. And that's really resonated with the customers we've talked to because it gives them a sort of pragmatic path forward. They care about how do I get from A to B? Yes, in a reasonable way, right? Anybody who's migrated data knows it's not a fun job. So one last question for me. What about geographically distributed data? There seem to be a number of models out there, the erasure coding and things like that. Is that where you're going with this? Or is that too early to say? It's too early to be particularly specific, but here's what I would tell you, okay? Definitely built into our system is a geo-replication model that is asynchronous, which basically says, for every piece of data, your master copy is in a particular zone, and then our system takes care of making replicas in other zones so that in case you have an outage of a data center or a zone, your data is available from other places, right? Now, so that system is built in now under the covers of the next level of detail, you have different trade-off points as to how efficient you want to be in storage versus the latency, right? So if I do something like geo-erasure coding, which we do in our Atmos product today, which we could certainly do in Viper, that model basically says no single data center has a complete copy of the data. I actually take the data and I spread it across the sites, right? So it's, I mean, in computer science terms, it's the most efficient way of storing the data. On the other hand, whenever you want to retrieve the data, you are forced to make multiple hops across data centers to collapse that, right? So that's sort of the game you have to play, right? And I think the model we followed with Atmos is we've allowed the customer to set a policy model which says, I want to start with full replicas and then over time do this erasure coding in the background and spread me out. Because really data is hot data and cold data, right? And I think for hot data, you probably don't want to do the geo-erasure coding because you want fast response when there's an access. For really cold data, that's a better model, right? So Viper will support that full spectrum as we go. So a question I just got on Twitter is, so how are you protecting the data today? Right, that's a great question. So one of the benefits we have is that we are piggybacking on the arrays. And if you look at the arrays that we're running on, they provide a lot of protection out of the box. So we run an ISALON. And ISALON has an erasure coding model that goes across an ISALON cluster and basically does at an overhead of 1.3x which is very efficient. It gives you protection from this failure, node failure, et cetera, right? So that's a level of protection we sort of get for free from the arrays. And then at the object level itself, we have a production model based on replication where we make copies of the object as they come in. So we have a pretty good story for production here. All right, Manu Virat, thanks very much for coming on theCUBE. Again, congratulations on getting the platform out and unveiled and good luck with the rollout and really appreciate your time. Thank you, I appreciate the opportunity to come out here and talk to you. All right, excellent, again, more great data hanging with the key technical leads of the Advanced Software Division at EMC, Unpacking, Viper. We've got more to come, keep it right there. This is theCUBE, Silicon Angles Flagship, coverage of EMC World 2013. It will be right back. This is Dave Vellante with David Floyer. Keep it right there.