The TV man is not your friend. Notes from the Edge of the Narrative Matrix. It's very cute how Empire Apologists talk about driving Putin from Ukraine so there can be peace, like that's a real thing. Like if it happened, the war would just stop and the US Alliance wouldn't with absolute certainty continue the attack and work to topple Moscow by any means necessary.  But even if that did happen, there'd be less than zero reason to believe the fighting would stop there. If anything, it would get much more dangerous from that point. This doesn't end with Russia leaving Ukraine. It ends with Putin being replaced with a Yeltsin-like US vassal and the eventual Balkanization of the Russian Federation. Really, it doesn't end until Beijing has been subverted and the US Empire secures total global hegemony or when the Empire collapses or when we all get nuked and die. Empire apologists don't even really deny this. There's a tweet by NATO think tanker Anders Ostland. When the war is over, there will be no Russia. Marjorie Taylor Greene being better than progressive Democrats on Ukraine is noteworthy not because it makes Greene look good but because it makes those progressive Democrats look really, really, really bad. People who think Tucker Carlson is fighting the establishment are exactly the same as people who think the squad is fighting the establishment. Exactly the same. Same people, slightly different bumper stickers. It's obvious that every member of the quote populist right who's now getting praise for being correct about Ukraine will function as a virulent Empire Apologist once the imperial crosshairs inevitably move from Moscow to Beijing. We know this because of their rhetoric about China today. Do you know what happens to mainstream media figures who provide real resistance to Empire agendas? They get fired. Ask Phil Donahue or Chris Hedges. The fact that Tucker Carlson is a top pundit on Imperial media, Murdoch media no less, means he's an agent of the Empire. This belief that there are factions of the mainstream media working against the Empire is as naive as the belief that there are factions of mainstream US politicians working against the Empire. The Empire doesn't platform people who pose a threat to it. This isn't complicated. The TV man is not your friend. I run into far too many people who oppose war and can't understand why I'm saying things about issues like China, which disagree with what they're being told by their populist anti-war hero. The propaganda campaign against China isn't going to get better. It's going to get much much worse and it's important to start fighting it early because it's going to be bad. They're not worried about the spread of disinformation. They're worried about the spread of information. Your rulers are not concerned that you'll start learning wrong things about COVID or Ukraine. They are worried you'll start learning true things about your rulers. The Imperial power structure, which runs Silicon Valley and which is imprisoning Julian Assange and which literally just admitted it's circulating disinformation about Russia, is not worried about disinformation and it's hilarious that anyone is pretending otherwise. Oh, no, no, you don't understand. If the US and its allies didn't give weapons to al-Qaeda and Nazi militias, the bad guys might win. The one single time the US had a monopoly on nuclear weapons at the same time it was at war, it used them. Not because it needed to, but as a show of force. That was the dawn of the modern US Empire. That's how it was born and it never got any saner from there. There is a kind of poetic beauty, I guess, in the way the US Empire was birthed onto the world stage by a nuclear blast. And will probably die in the same way. Psychological abuse is still abuse. Psychological tyranny is still tyranny. The fact that a large amount of the tyranny in so-called free democracies expresses as mass-scale psychological manipulation does not make it less tyrannical. It just makes it more photogenic. All of religion and almost all spirituality is glorified escapism at best and tyrannical psychological domination at worst and humanity would be better off without it. But what remains just might save the world.


Guess it's close enough the time to start Hey everybody, my name is not Richard unfortunately if you guys came here to see Richard Maynard He couldn't make it so I won't be offended if you leave My name is Kevin Bringard and today we're gonna talk about Infrastructure is cattle or herding the service cloud for fun and for profit It's sort of a You know before ironic and it's it's sort of a custom implementation if you will of open stack on open stack or triple O That we're doing at Cisco where I work and I think it's a lot of fun Hopefully you will as well and we shall see how it goes So everybody tells me that I should start off up from a presentation with either a joke or a quote so the joke is neutron and the Just kidding just kidding. I work a lot on neutron. I love neutron, but oh my goodness The quote however is this what the hell is a service cloud and that's a tribute to everyone I've ever talked to about service cloud You may have also heard of it as under cloud or something like that Basically, it's just clouds all the way down We're creating small footprint sort of lowest common denominator simple basic virtualization orchestrator Sort of a hybrid cloud that's running all of your tenant services So you've got some things that are bare metal and we'll get into this a little bit Just because they don't make sense to put on to They don't make sense to put into VMs or it would just be a really bad idea And then coupled with a lot of services that are actually running on VMs and it allows you to really scale out horizontally In a pretty great way, and we've leveraged it to a lot of success So another way it's a cloud to run your cloud and that's me. I said that So I want to start off by saying I think virtualizing infrastructure makes a lot of sense So, you know as purveyors of cloud here We all love open stack and we love to sell it and tell everybody how amazing it is and you know How you like you don't have to worry about your VMs and they die whatever it you can scale out.  Don't care if it dies sort of thing and yet then at least in a lot of places where I've been we continue to Deploy all of our stuff on bare metal and continue to try to scale out on metal And I think that if we take that, you know that the concepts that we're selling our tenants and we we apply them to ourselves It creates a nice a nice symbiotic relationship there So and obviously the concept of open stack on open stack and bare metal is a service. That's not new You know people are working towards that. There's obviously an entire project dedicated towards it and I think at least in my experience deploying to metal is time-consuming even if you get it to the point where you can Do it really quickly it still takes time to like install the packages and you know Like bootstrap your your hardware and do all of these things It still takes, you know Maybe a half an hour to get a piece of metal provisioned even if you've got it like push button deploy ready Where's a VM you spin it up 30 seconds later VM is up, you know exactly what the hardware is going to look like You know what the profiles going to look like and you're totally good to go Then you start applying your puppet and stuff like that, but I mean at that point That's that's a different part of deploying to metal. So Keeping that much extra capacity laying around isn't cheap So if you've got tons and tons of physical hardware laying around, you know If you want to if you want to be able to just deploy quickly, you know You have to have hardware to deploy to you otherwise, you know, you have to go through you have to purchase it You have to get it installed to get a wired up and racked and all those different things and either that or you just keep it laying Around and it's not cheap to keep it laying around So you either are over capacity or you're under capacity you you spending a lot of money It's just not really a great way of doing things and again, I mean this is exactly what we tell our tenants We say guys you don't have to have capacity spin it up as you need it run heat You know apply a profile when you when you get close to your capacity, whatever it may be your thresholds So what we want to do is just again virtualize as much tenant infrastructure as we can But isn't that what ironic is for kind of I mean ironic is partly for doing bare metal as a service towards Like if tenants actually need to deploy Something on bare metal and and there's absolutely a place for that and so I'm not necessarily belittling that there Again sort of more looking at as people who are running clouds. How can we how can we how can we virtualize our control plane infrastructure? So To take a little bit of a side a side note here on the on the ironic thing So the way that I've always explained open stack to people so like I my parents love to ask me questions about what I do But my parents are very very old and they don't get it at all So so I try to explain to them what I do and and they're like wait so like it has to do with computers, right? So but the way that I've often explained to tenants, right as I say, you know Even people who are in technology who who aren't necessarily old or who kind of do get it Often cloud confuses them a little bit partly because there's tons of different clouds, you know Whether it's Dropbox cloud or Amazon cloud or you know Apple cloud or whatever but um? Also, it's you know, they just they just it's hard to it's hard to get a tenant to think about well I've got my server and I've got my cage So how do I take that and put that into a cloud? so I Always try to describe it as like cage robots So, you know if you think about a co-located data center you walk into the data center You've got your key which could be your credentials or your API key or whatever But you know your physical key in a data center it unlocks your cage There's cages everywhere, but you only have access to the one that you have access to and when you first get there And when when you first set up a cage in a data center, it's empty They give you basically a drop that gives you internet access and beyond that it's your cage You do whatever you want with it so you go in there and you install some routers and you configure the routers And so you know you're doing your neutron here your neutron router create You know that's akin to racking a new router and you do like a nova boot That's akin to racking a new server so if we think about cage robots and Virtualizing our infrastructure in these terminology and this terminology instead of deploying new servers and racking new servers Again, we just do this exact same thing, but with our infrastructure So open stack are like these little robots that you send into your cage to do your bidding you say I need a new server I need a new router. I need a grouter configured this way. I need whatever you need Robots go into your stuff. So I think that Google and Elon Musk may not be happy about that, but I like robots I think they're cool. So deploying straight to bare metal. It's it's logically identical It just uses a slightly different cage robot. So that's what ironic is for it's a different cage robot And there's totally you know, there's totally a market for that and a place for that But I don't really think in our infrastructure. That's what it's for. So and here's some other reasons I'm personally I'm opinionated. I like to do things the way that I like to do things I already know how to do things the way I want to do them and I don't particularly want to change How I do them. So, you know, I use cobbler. I love cobbler. It's awesome So, you know, I want to keep using I use Puffett You know, maybe you use chef or Ansible or whatever you use You know some pearl scripts that you wrote when you in university, whatever it is You've got your way of doing things and you don't necessarily want to change. So Are we sure that it's actually going to that it's actually going to work and you know, why should we change what works, right? If it works for us, then why introduce a whole new workflow into what we're doing? So if we use our existing tooling, we know how to configure an API server We know how to configure an algea server. We know how to deploy new compute nodes even like the physical thing We've got our way of doing it. So we don't have to don't have to integrate a thing. You know, do we know if these are going to work? I don't know So basically service cloud is logically the same thing that you're doing today You get to going back to the cage robots. You get a new server. It's there. It's virtual everything's good to go and Then you just configure it using your existing tooling. You don't have to change anything So What are sorts of things that we put on VM? So it's Cisco. These are some of the things we put on VMs Obviously your opinion may differ and that's totally cool. You can do it how you want We put API endpoints on VMs. So, you know, Nova Neutron glance heat, etc. All of the all of the different services We put DNS servers into into VMs. So we have like, you know, tenant-facing public-facing, etc. DNS We put our MX servers or SMTP servers all that goes into all that goes into VMs as well our message bus so like Nagios goes in there or sorry rabbit goes in there and We do monitoring in there. I guess I didn't put it up there But so things that don't like obviously compute nodes If you want to try virtualization on virtualization, that's up to you. I personally don't want to do that So we have physical compute nodes. We put our network nodes and agents Directly on bare metal because I don't want to deal with trying to go through 500 tap devices to get to another 500 tap devices So that sounds pretty nasty to me. So maybe we do put database servers into into VMs Logging servers. I don't know depends on how much you need what you need out of it You know your server profile stuff like that if you can get it out of a VM your storage I mean if you want to try to run Seth on VMs that might be a fun project. I don't know if anybody's doing that or not Abe is Saying no so it's probably not a good idea, but you know maybe I don't know that's sort of up to you But this is kind of a little bit of a profile about what we put on VM So obviously this is a hybrid cloud, you know, we've got something on physical servers some things on virtual servers Standard of what? so Could you imagine a world where all of your servers were the same like and so Many many moons ago. I worked at an ISP called Earthlink and my friend Abe over here did as well and my buddy John Dewey and so Dewey and I had this idea that At Earthlink we had we were running mostly spark gear and we had all of this Various different Sun hardware everywhere So we had like e4500s and v220s and v240s and v880s and all of this nonsense everywhere And and you would have especially with the 4500s You'd have you know all these different different trays and different ways that things would work out and you'd get like you'd start Getting random errors and you'd get you know like a core dump and so you scat the core dump And it turns out that there's one memory module in one tray in one server somewhere That is causing all kinds of problems for you So you spent all this time troubleshooting it and then you got to open a case with Sun and then they send you a new Ram chip and then you you know you do all this stuff and it was just nasty So what Dewey and I wanted to do was and this was in 2003 2004 we wanted to take and just have a bank of just generic servers We didn't really care what they were and Virtualized services on them and obviously this was you know pre open stack or anything like that and KVM was still pretty young If it was even if it was even around at all So I'm trying to remember what we were going to use but either way we wanted to virtualize the services because I made it an ISP all We have were you know MX and Sntp and you know Apache servers and earth link You know we were running like personal start page Which was like a Java thing and all sorts of like but it was all just it was all just web services So we totally wanted to virtualize all of this stuff so that everything looked the same and the idea being that you could walk In there you didn't have to troubleshoot which RAM module was bad, which you know CPU was bad You would just walk in there say this server has given me trouble You would rip that server out you'd throw a new one in you deal with replacing the server later and get an RMA Or whatever you were going to do with it and then you're done services come back up problem-solve so I Like that idea so I don't have to deal with you know I got well I've got some Dell gear over here and some HP gear over here and some obviously some UCS gear everywhere and So you know I've got all this different stuff all over the place and I don't want to deal with that So I like the idea of commoditizing as much as I can and if I can commoditize my service cloud as well And not only not only run my tenant services in a scalable architecture in a way that I don't care if I just have To rip out a server and throw it back in But it's the identical hardware that I'm running my tenant stuff on because it's all just compute nets So every rack looks the same And you've already developed a growth strategy for what you want your compute racks to look like you know You know when you know what your failure domains are You've created your it you've created your availability zones you've You know all these all of those different things you've you've worked out You know your affinity like how I'm how I place VMs in different places, you know You've already done all this stuff for your tenants. So if You just apply that exact same logic you've already done all the work just apply it to your service cloud as well When do I need to add new compute nodes? When do I need to do this? Why do I need to do that? You know exactly when you need to do it It also allows you to more easily individualized services. So one server one service as it stands today like I've I've deployed some pretty big clouds in the past and We would we would you know, you would basically you'd get like two control racks Is how we used to do it at a previous employer and you know We would have to we would have to figure out profiles of different of different applications And it'd be like well this one can take this many Nova APIs and this many glance APIs and like I'll spread the databases out Over these guys and do this different thing and it's this crazy like Tetris game to try to fit everything in there as as tight as you possibly can Now with the service cloud you don't particularly care because aside from a few services which need to run on metal You're just spinning up VMs and the VMs sort of will categorize themselves and will Tetris themselves if you will into the into the hypervisors that you have so Spend up a Nova API server and say there's a Nova API server spend up a glance API server and that's all that runs on it It's just that one thing Another thing that we started doing and this is this was Abe's idea is is testing individual component upgrades so we have For instance glance right like we're running ice house. We run around Juno We test we test glance Juno's glance in our in our in our lab in a VM And then we bring it up actually next to our existing ice house running stuff And then you're actually running two different versions, but you don't have to worry about like you know library mismatches and all these other things Because that glance API, you know instance is is its own machine. It's basically its own VM So we're sort of creating you know like Python virtual environments But out of home machines and so you can bring up certain things and if you find out that like you know For instance kilo ice house has some fix that you really are sorry You don't want that Kilo horizon has some fix that you really really want or really really need and you want to run it So you just like deployed in its own VM bring it up in theory It's API compatible and so you just start using it and now you get some new feature some new whatever and it all Just sort of works and you're not worrying about stomping on yourself So you can move quickly in your lab, and it looks just like production So when you're doing your stuff, you know, you know that you know that the machine that you're doing that you're working on in Dev stack or in in vagrant or whatever you're using is Literally identical to the machine that you're going to be using in production because it's the same image And so the service cloud itself doesn't need a lot of resources And that's sort of what I was talking about at the beginning when I said like lowest common denominator It's you know, it's it's not taking any tenant traffic So you don't need a ton of API servers in theory. It doesn't even need to be HA You just you know really as long as you can as long as you can get what you need done Then you know, that's fine. So you probably don't need like all the network as a service stuff Maybe you do that's up to you We run we run it with neutron and OBS so that we can plug it into Kind of that's that's a whole other thing with a whole other architecture talk But has to do with service VMs and stuff like that But I mean you could do that with Nova Network and by and large I would advocate for actually using Nova Network for a service cloud because you just need something simple stable fast that works It's really as close to a production dev stack cloud as you're gonna get so, you know If you all of those warnings and dev stack this they don't run this in production Well, I mean this is kind of like a like a production dev stack cloud, right? It's just very simple very basic all you got to do is be able to spin up a few VMs and there's only one tenant So it's not you don't even have to worry about multi-tenancy So this is kind of what it looks like Excuse me, it'll look very very familiar Logically, it's probably pretty identical to the clouds that you're already building So I mean you have this load balancer pair over here. Maybe that's a physical load balancer Maybe that's just HA these are your service API endpoints. So in this particular diagram I showed them as HA but they don't necessarily have to be, you know glance and obviously this is a very simple example You'd have other APIs and things like that in there. It goes talks to your message bus and then your service compute very very simple It's small scale. It's a known quantity easy-peasy. We've been doing this since there, right? Okay, so how is it useful? Well, here's why it's useful. So this is what your tenants see, right? So this load balancer pair Maybe this is the same load balancer pair if you have like physical load balancers You're terminating SSL for your tenant cloud and your service cloud.   I just can't handle it can't handle the load So you run a couple of API calls and boom now you have four Nova API servers Scaled out very quickly very easily Obviously you could add more than just two you could add, you know a hundred more Just that easy as long as you have the Cucu the compute the compute capacity as a tongue twister for it You can do it same thing with the Glance APIs. You need more all of a sudden. There's just more They come up they plug into the network add them to the load balancer pair and now you've got scalability on your API layer Same thing with a message bus, you know, you lose a piece of hardware one of your rabbit nodes is gone Your cluster is going crazy Spend up a new rabbit node add it to the cluster problem solved So it's very very simple and it you know, it works out pretty well at least in our at least our experience You get HA mostly for free again going back to what I was saying before you've already figured out your failure domains You've already figured out, you know, your availability zones your affinity all that different stuff So if you're just using those same strategies, then VMs are just getting placed automatically in places where if you lose an entire Availability zone your tenant-facing services are still up Because again reusing work reusable code So you can just treat it like any other web application because at its core really I mean on the back end open stack There's a lot of crazy things but on the front end from what the tenant sees and the and the data plane For the most part is really just a standard three tier web app You've got your load balancer talks to an application server talks to a database server, and then it does some stuff So by I mean, it's obviously a little more complicated than that, but you know, that's sort of the same thing It's super agile I mean you can spin up servers in minutes and instead of like we were talking about before where it can even take Even if you have the hardware there, and you've got a push button ready and take 30 40 minutes to image a new piece of metal If you know you just all of a sudden randomly you're like, you know what? We've got these two things running on DNS, but we just are these two DNS running on running on the same servers We really want to split it out run a couple API commands. You've got two new servers run your puppet manifest on them problem-solved What am I great to a new version of Nagios, but want to test your configs you test them in you know You test them in your dev environment again You know the dev environment is identical to what you're going to be doing in production You bring up the new productions the new production ones with the good with the new configs Nova delete the old ones problem-solved just need another host to do stuff on like that happens to me all the time I'm like man, I really should I had a machine I could just like log into and just do some stuff on I don't even know what just stuff right like make it look like I'm working Spin up a terminal and log in make a spin up a terminal log into something so such agility much amazed Wow Doge is very very happy with this so speaking of dogs Dog-fooding that's the other thing that's really really great here So universal troubleshooting your tenant facing cloud is The same thing as what you're as what as what you're as what your your control plane cloud is so you don't have to worry about You know you get your operators who are like they can log into they can log into the tenant ones And they're already familiar with the with the with the service cloud as well because it's the exact same thing Have a harder failure. Don't worry about it. Shoot it in the head spin up new ones You know whatever is whatever was on that machine. You don't care Get rid of it spin them up image new ones and again This is super key for me the operators are now users of the system that they're supporting and like At least in large shops in my experience when you get like, you know, kind of first-tier Operations guys, they're super awesome at troubleshooting and debugging You know like low-level Linux stuff and you know or whatever, you know It's like you got some weird network problem They can like you know, they can figure it out But then they don't necessarily know open stack because why would they you know their system administrators So if you make them users of the system that they're supporting, you know If they have to get a new server if they have to issue Nova boot they have to configure router Nova routers They have to you know, do whatever then They're gonna be more familiar with it and they're gonna be able to support your customers better because when somebody calls in and says Oh, you know, I'm trying this trying to attach this volume and they can go. Oh, that flag is wrong I know that flag is wrong because you know, I made that same mistake or whatever So that's a huge one for me as well so at this point you're probably like hey, let's virtualize all the things and I mean, that's that's how I was but not necessarily You might maybe but there are certainly places where this might not work for you So for instance, if you run a small-scale shop, this probably isn't worth it You know, if you've got two racks, I doubt you want to set up a whole cloud to run to act two racks worth of cloud If you just disagree the virtualize infrastructure makes sense Then you probably don't want to do this and that's totally cool. Like I don't have all the answers We're all just you know beggars looking for bread, right? So if you if you absolutely need a high degree of vertical scale, then this probably isn't for you either So, you know if if for some strange reason your application profile is you know what? I really just need a thousand Nova API processes to run on one machine Then certainly this isn't for you because here we're talking about horizontal scale not vertical scale You know, there's lots of other things too I mean if you're setting up private clouds like just individual drop-a-pods somewhere You know same sort of thing that's I would consider that kind of small scale This may or may not be for you depending on how big that scale is but however If you're looking for a way a way to scale your control infrastructure quickly This might be for you a way to commoditize your hardware You know that story I told about earth link like that This is what we were looking for when doing I were trying to get that set up and at earth link Like it was literally this it would have been amazing just rip out the hardware Who cares throw a new piece in like treat hardware like VMs in a sense If you think that dogfooding is good for your platform, you think it's good for your product Then you know this could probably be for you. So join the herd. I See a question in the front How do you mean? Sure Sure, so the question is is it a chicken and egg problem and I mean to a degree Yes, though and the answer to that is that again, we're already all deploying open-stack clouds So in theory, we know how to deploy open-stack We know how to deploy it on metal and we're opinionated on how we do that So if we take if we take the things that we're doing already And we just make it on a really small scale that you have to do one time Then that's how you do the first one. So absolutely there always has to be a starting point So the first one is you have to do a quote-unquote manual install on metal And you know you have to have the infrastructure and whatever in place to do that So the assumption is of course that you're already doing that because you know for deploying open-stack You're deploying it. So do you deploy the metal or you know, do you deploy the metal ad infinium? Or do you deploy the metal once and then start virtualizing things? Sure, I Do and I mean so that would be where you'd have to where you would need to figure out on your own what your failure Domains are and where you would put what you would put on VMs and what you wouldn't so in that case again I would say you know like you're gonna have your novice scheduler is gonna be HA on Multiple physical hypervisors in your service cloud And so that way if you lose one or two or even the whole availability zone and that's where that's that HA for free That's sort of what I was talking about because you've already figured out your strategy for HA But where you're gonna put your hardware and to make sure that your cloud isn't gonna fall over So you apply those tenants to your service cloud and you set that up that one time and then in theory It takes care of itself, but I mean again It's not a bulletproof solution of course There's always gonna be a problem that we can find and I mean we've run into plenty of problems as well I tried to cover them here, but Did I answer your question? Maybe yes. No, not satisfied Cool, well, I thank you. I mean I'm happy to talk about it more If you'd like later, so are there any other questions anybody want to know anything else? I see a hand up there. Yes, sir So do you mean sorry? So the question was questions about versioning So do you mean the release you're running in the service cloud versus the release you're running on top of it? No, I don't really have Much of an opinion on that personally other than to say the beauty of the service cloud being so simple Is that you really could be running probably like a Diablo cloud? Well, absolutely and there's and there's in theory There's no interdependency there other than other than the further you the further you get so like if you're still running Diablo in your Service cloud and you know you're running, you know Juno or even kilo up here then the dog-fooding aspect is gonna be a little bit less because the people who are operating this the Operation of Diablo was very different than the operation of you know Juno or kilo so there's that aspect of it and of course upgrades is a whole other problem and I mean upgrading a service cloud and Stuff like that frankly. We haven't gotten there yet, and we'll figure it out when we cross that bridge when we get to it But I don't I mean in theory. They're they're completely separate things That's we don't really care if a tenant what a tenant runs in their stuff. So same thing. Yes, sir It is physically separate hardware, but we keep it in the same failure domain So I mean it's it's it's its own thing and it's its own failure domain But we apply it logically the same failure domains to it So the way we've done it is is that it's its own it's its own separate hardware We've had some people ask about running it on the same if you wanted to cut down on cost You certainly could do that so instead of having three or four or five or whatever racks of compute for service cloud You could certainly multi-home it on your tenant compute stuff We opted not to do that because we get a pretty good deal and you see us here, but Yes, sir We're It's a good question Jeff. Do you know how many racks we're running? It's pretty big. We've got something like five or six different different different geographic locations You know 30 or 40 racks per I would have to do the math on how many cores that is and stuff like that The six or seven different geographic locations. Yeah, and we're deploying more like literally we're deploying more as we speak So yeah this week next week. They're more getting deployed as well And we found since implementing I mean since implementing this we've started our our rev has gotten faster Because we've been able to just like put a small cloud in there and then spin up a bunch of stuff And then the dev stuff translates a lot more. There's been a lot less like You know, it's the whole thing is like software Life-cycle driven because we test everything in our dev environment that we can be we can rest assured that it's identical to what's gonna Go into at least on top of in the VMs and stuff like that It's helped us rev a lot faster as we scale out or as we scale out our data centers It's a good question. I Want to say Was it 32 42 something like that? I can't remember if they're one year or two you machines that we're running but It's I mean, it's not small. I would I could I could find the information on it if you'd like Sorry, he was asking how big the how big our deployments are I Don't remember how many machines per rack we have Okay, so we have 32 see you see series UCSC series per rack and Then like I say however many racks per you know 10 15 20 30 racks per deploy it sort of depends some deploys are bigger than others So and then all of that like I say all of that runs on and then as far as service cloud goes We've got three compute racks and then to control racks is where we is what we run our service cloud on And so those three compute racks, you know, we've got however many cores of CPU that we can that we can allocate API servers and you know database servers and rabbit servers and all that stuff too And that's so that's our service cloud deploy and then this other and then the tenant cloud is is what is what's much bigger Yes, we do Well, that's why I say we talked about doing that and the main reason that we didn't was because we just figured Again because we get a good deal on UCS gear. We didn't we didn't figure that we just wanted to keep it completely separate But if you're on a budget you can absolutely do that and I wouldn't see a problem with that Yeah, more like the dog booting. Well, yeah And that's exactly it the other downside of that would be sort of back to this other question over here would be that it makes it If you're mixing compute racks, it makes it more difficult to have a service cloud That's running a like a known version and then be able to upgrade on top of it because if you if it's all mixed together Then whatever this the service cloud is running needs to is intertwined with what the tenant cloud is running So it it creates more of an interdependency Right, which again is why we decided to make them completely separate to help to help alleviate that Any other questions How much time we have Am I out of time maybe I don't know Anybody anybody? Well, I really appreciate your time. Thank you. I know it's valuable. Thank you all for coming. Hopefully it was useful and I'm K bring guard on IRC So feel free to find me. I'm in I'm in open stack channels all the time. So feel free to hit me up if you have any questions Thanks you guys


I think a lot of you just had it. If you haven't, you'll talk about, there's the book right there. And today is just a sharing of different ideas, business discussions about how we can grow our communities. So without further ado, I'll let them introduce themselves and they can see our way to the show. All right, good morning, everyone. Thank you for joining us this morning. I'm going to try to very loosely moderate and facilitate this conversation, but it's really about Ian and Audrey today. We've had a previous discussion, so we're going to pick up on those and try to have an engaging and interesting conversation. Unfortunately, because of the technicalities, Ian will you probably won't be able to ask questions from Ian, but Audrey will stay in that room with you guys. She's not running away anywhere, so you can have her and ask her all the questions you want afterwards. So with that said, David just kind of introduced, and you all obviously know who Audrey is, but I want to start my question first with Audrey. And then, and part of that, Audrey, please do give us a little more background to introduce yourself. But we talked about how I should maybe introduce you as the person who put dot in Asia, dot SV. What is that about? When I entered the cabinet, it was four years ago, roughly speaking, and there was this new idea called Yangzhou Siku, or Asian Silicon Valley. And I thought it was still like a lot of my friends thought it was silly, actually, because we've been to Silicon Valley. And so we understand that it's not a bit bringing Silicon Valley to Asia or to turn Asia into Silicon Valley that it works. But however, we do see the importance of connections. And so I put this dot and call it, instead, Asia, dot Silicon Valley. So instead of Asia being a objective like Asian, Yangzhou Siku, right? This is how Yangzhou Lianzi is equal to connect Asia as a Silicon Valley as subsequently. Without that, it's actually the Silicon Valley way of thinking if it's more short-term, if it's more about creating short-term returns and so on. Actually, it has a lot of externalities. We have seen the impotemic, for example, as a result of that. And people in Asia are very creative and we created a lot of ways actually to counter the impotency. So the connection is in both ways. It's not just about using Silicon Valley's thinking to solve Asian problems, but also using Asian thinking to solve problem-caused by Silicon Valley. And this makes for a much more bilateral communication. That's great. And I'm going to come back to that. But before I go dig deeper into that topic, I want to ask Ian, who's the co-author of the Startup Communities Book. And I feel like the book is exactly about this. It's about different communities around the world wanting to become a thriving ecosystem. Can you tell us a little bit about the book and then also a little bit more about your experience? Yeah, thanks, Oko. So yeah, so the book is really the culmination of three years of work with my co-author Brad Feld and I. Not three years consistently. There were a lot of breaks in between, a lot of, you know, marinating on these ideas. For those who may not be aware, Brad wrote a book in 2012 called Startup Communities, which kind of kicked off this global phenomena. And we partnered over the last couple years. This book was just published in July, which is really an evolution on the movement that Brad kicked off. His first book focused a lot on Boulder, the principles that could be learned in Boulder, Colorado, his experience building the Startup Community there. What we're trying to do here is be more generalizable. We focus a lot on the systemic properties. We use the word ecosystem a lot, but too often we found that approaches to improve entrepreneurship in a community overlooks the systemic nature. And so we really focus on that. Audrey said the word directly, which was connections, right? That's really what this is about, about strong human relationships built around collaboration and support. And that's really what the book is about. We could go a bit deeper if you'd like, but a lot of it has been, you know, put into action with the local team in Taiwan, and it's been fun to be a part of that journey. Great, thank you, Ian.  It's been around me. Sorry for your trouble. No problem. It's a big agenda. It's been around for a while now. From your perspective in the office, what has the progress been? What are you proud of? And, you know, how would you analyze the results so far? Yeah, a lot of the work that we've done is to ensure that there is a compelling reason for talents to circulate. Like I personally went to Silicon Valley to start some companies. And thanks to the invention of telework maintained this teleworking relationship with the Silicon Valley community, like even now, right? Digitalminister.tw slash co-founder, sportman, but many other international organizations. And I'm not alone in this. There's many, those Taiwanese people who go overseas that want to return to amplify their work as well as people who have heard of Taiwan and chose this as their startup destination. And toward that end, we've introduced, for example, the Taiwan Gold Card, which you can check out at TaiwanGoldCard.com. And it's a community that with people who hold this open work permit, enjoying healthcare along with their family and so on. And it's all very streamlined without needing to invest a lot of money in Taiwan or to find a Taiwanese employer. What we're saying is that essentially just hang out with us and share your talents and things like that. And it really worked. I mean, now we're around almost 2,000 Gold Card issued this way, up from less than 200 before the pandemic. And during the pandemic, there's also more than 250K people returning from all over the world back to Taiwan to work on whatever they are already working on, but through teleworking and so on. So I think the COVID and teleworking initiatives in particular has really fostered this talent circulation and we've signaled that we are really in this for the long run. The open work permit is three years and unlike Singapore, you can reapply after the three years. And when we're relaxing the criteria as the Christmas gift last year from the Minister of Science and Technology, Mr. Wu Zhenzong, is that anyone who has the potential to contribute to science and technology is now eligible for a Gold Card. So that's pretty much everyone in the startup community. That's great. And I want to follow up on that question. Do you think that it's easier and to be an entrepreneur in Taiwan now than- Yeah, definitely. You're two or four years ago, definitely. Yeah. And what are some of larger kind of infrastructures or new things in place that entrepreneurs can take advantage of in Taiwan now besides the Gold Card? That's right. So in 2015, we've reformed our company law a little bit to promote the closely held corporations that would be able for you as a co-founder or as a founder to raise money up to like serious air or something without diluting your votes and rights. And that used to be very difficult. You have to set up a company at Cayman Islands or something. But now you can do so using local law. Now, in 2017, we further expanded it. So it applies to basically any company that's not public issued. And so like new inventions from Silicon Valley, including for example, the crowd funding and crowd funding for shares, for example, and these things, SDOs even, these structures become legally possible in Taiwan. That's great. I want to jump over to Ian. So is Silicon Valley the best ecosystem in the world? And what have you found in your research looking around communities around the world? Well, I think the best ecosystem is the one then and the one you want to spend the rest of your life improving and building the next great company. I think that the lessons are from Silicon Valley are of course that place matters. It's easier to build a great company in Silicon Valley than in many other places. Maybe we should amend that to say it used to be easier to build a company there, right? The things have been evolving, but place matters. I'll quote a friend of mine who is a French entrepreneur turned investor. And he said, I encourage all of my entrepreneurs to spend time in Silicon Valley, not just to learn and see how things are done and to build a network, but to see that no one is special there, that they aren't necessarily the smartest people, right? They don't have necessarily the best ideas. It's that they're doing it in a place where this culture which has unfolded over many decades has taken shape and it just makes the journey easier. It doesn't make it certain. Let's also not forget to double down on what Audrey was just discussing. Silicon Valley was really built by entrepreneurs, by immigrants. I think one estimate that I saw from a study in the middle of the 2000s, something along the lines of half of all technology venture-backed startups in the Valley over the previous several decades had at least one immigrant founder, right? And we know now that the United States is over the last four years and really predating that much further has begun to turn its back on immigrants. And now we're seeing that capital is flowing to more places, more communities around the world, opportunity is opening up in those markets and smart governments can stay competitive by having an open door. I mean, this is really about talent, right? That's what the whole game is. And to say you're welcome here, you have a place here, I think it's really good government policy. The final thing that I'll say is that also what has made Silicon Valley great is its resilience, right? Its adaptability, going back to that culture element. Silicon Valley made its way really in electronics, in chips and hardware, right? That might sound familiar to folks in Taiwan. It's also been one of the leading centers of biotech and it really wasn't even positioned to be that. But it became that because of the orientation of how venture capitalists and entrepreneurs would take existing means and create meaningful companies, right? So Silicon Valley is proof that it can happen anywhere by applying the right mindset, by being adaptable, being open, being collaborative, putting the entrepreneurs as the star, right? Makes those combinations, those winning combinations of great ideas becoming great companies and creating large markets. It just makes it more likely. And so I think those are some of the main takeaways from Silicon Valley. I don't think you should ever try to emulate it. We can learn from those principles, but really each place is so unique. And to the degree that you do want to adopt lessons from Silicon Valley, I would look back several decades about what actually got the flywheel spinning to begin with, not necessarily what's happening today. Ian, I know you've built your own startup as an entrepreneur and you sold it. And if you were to do a new startup now, would you want to do it in the Silicon Valley? Audrey, same question back to you. Would you want to be back there? Well, for me it's no because I don't want to spend the rest of my life there. I don't want to live there. So it's a definite no for me. Okay, I'm currently working in the Taipei City by my residency is in the New Taipei City. I recently met with the mayor and the deputy mayor of New Taipei City and they have this great sign that everyone who lives or have their residence in the New Taipei City are new citizens. So it's just a new resident. So we are all immigrants and immigrants, we get a job done. So I'm happy to stay in Taiwan and work in Taiwan. Great, Audrey, follow up. So what other ecosystems or communities do you look to when you are perhaps looking for creativity or inspiration and in terms of comparison? I don't want to use this word because I know Ian is very allergic to this word but what other ecosystems and communities do you look at? Inspiration. Yes, so I'm, as I said, I'm digitalminister.tw slash board member, RadcoExchange. And RadcoExchange is this basically unchain governance trying to project it to the real world, quote unquote real world. So my co-founder, Vitalik Buterin is now working with many like quadratic voting, quadratic funding, a lot of like Gitcoin, which is a real implementation of quadratic funding practice and things like that. And the good thing about the Ethereum, is it a co-governor now? Is it sovereign now? Maybe not. The Ethereum community is that they are very willing to look at democracy and see democracy as a technology. Now that's quite rare actually in jurisdictions around the world to see democracy as something maleable, as something that you can try different layout like semiconductor layouts. And so what we are doing is essentially looking at the lessons learned from the Gitcoin experiment, from the Ethereum domain name system and things like that and apply the lessons learned too. For example, that how it needs presidential happens on, which for the past couple of years has used quadratic voting to choose the teams to receive incubation for three months and the top five teams receive a trophy from the president, which is a micro-projector that went on projects that presidents playing when we call it central pie here. So her likeness, promising, promising, blessing, that's the word, blessing the team. Whatever the team did for the past three months, she promised to make it international policy within the next 12 months or so. That's executive power as heck as an award. And we learned that's including the voting method directly from the Ethereum community. Wow, those are some really interesting things that we should be all looking at too. As a digital minister, what is your day-to-day looks like? Earlier you said you attend 50 events a week? 10 meetings per day, yes. Per day? On seven to seven, yes. So what does the digital minister do, yeah? Give you just my meetings a day, right? Right, so I usually have my first engagement around seven a.m. I usually was North and South American communities. Now, the evening engagements are with African and European communities and what I usually do is to focus on the common values like this, this innovative one goals and sharing not only the time model to counter the pandemic with no lockdown, but also countering the infodemic with no take down and many other structural issues. But people in the Commonwealth's called Wicked Problems and I share the Wiki solutions to the Wicked Problems. Awesome, so I wanna now take this and take our two hour kind of third section of the conversation I wanted to have, which is Ian, you know, in your research, what did you find, how, what did you find government to be effective in developing ecosystems? What roles did they play where it worked and perhaps what they didn't do so well? Yeah, so government has a big role to play. I have a different view maybe on what that should be from what a lot of government officials might think that role should be. I think the first thing, and this is not as fun, not as sexy, but it's like getting the house in order is what I'd like to say, making sure your tax regimes and your regulatory regimes are fair, are transparent, are easy to understand, including in that immigration policy, right? That's a regulation around labor, doing things that only the government can do, right? Focusing on doing those things well. I think that governments who are looking to seed, to diversify their approach, right? To seed many different actors who are actually engaged, who are carrying out these experiments, right? I think governments can set high level vision and strategy, they can provide funding, they can provide other forms of support, convening and connecting, but ultimately I feel like when government tries to go down the road of delivering entrepreneurship, services for entrepreneurs like acceleration, incubation, investment, I think that's a step too far. So one way of framing this is government can help build the platform or the dance floor, but ultimately you have to let the dancers dance, right? And so that's a good way of thinking about it. And so those are the kind of things that I think about, about what government strategy, what government approaches work well and what don't. And RJ, I know some of these is exactly what you're working on. Yes. So not that, but that's really what I have to say. I completely agree inside one. We make sure that for when, for example, our national development fund from the National Development Council invest in a company, we always work with the actual community and we never get like more than 49.99% of the controlling share. Otherwise the startup becomes their own enterprises and that's not giving people the freedom to dance. Ian, obviously we've been doing work in Taiwan for over two years now. And one of the first things we did was to do an assessment, right? Can you maybe share a little bit about what we've learned in Taiwan before we started our work? Yeah, so this is a little bit repetitive of what I just talked about. But one of the things that stuck with me both from our assessment and my own experience visiting Taipei was that the government was making some smart decisions around you know, diversifying the strategy, looking for market participants to actually implement, right? The policy is let's improve digitally enabled, digitally driven technology entrepreneurship. That's the goal. Let's put some resources behind it, but let's have these other actors, many different ones implementing the policy. The second thing is that I see which is positive is a commitment, right? A sustained commitment, right? It's very early days.  This takes a long time. And so having that long-term commitment is critical. In fact, I think this is, you know, I try to think about what's the number one thing that confuses or confounds in entrepreneurial ecosystems. And I think it is that time cycle. These time lags are tremendous. So just remembering that it's early days. On the negative side, one of the things that I observed was that so much of the attention was on very early stage companies that it felt like there might have been a support gap for companies that are gaining traction and growing. I am a big believer in throwing a lot at the innovation economy. There's an American economist who turned venture capitalist named Bill Janeway, and he has this great quote, and he says, efficiency is the enemy of innovation. So don't try to make these policies efficient. Just know that you've got to try a lot of things. You know, a bunch of it won't work, but the things that will are going to drive value for the whole thing, and you're not going to be able to predict in advance what those things are. So I felt like it's great to have lots of this early stage experimentation, keep doing that, stick with it, but then also look for the companies that are gaining traction and find ways to support them as well. Make sure those mechanisms are there. The second thing that I would say is that I felt like the entrepreneurship, the entrepreneurs themselves could be doing more to self-organize and lead amongst themselves. So I feel like the government has done a great job to provide all these resources and opportunities. But one thing that I think could be done more is to encourage those entrepreneurs to lead. Now I know it's very easy for the founders to say, look, I'm busy building my company. I can't do this right now. And I think inevitably there is this cycle, right? There are gonna be times when founders really need to focus only on the company, but my plea would be over the long term that a startup community that is led principally by entrepreneurs not entirely is a more relevant and sustainable one. And so those are some of the things that I would have said some great strengths, but also some things to work on. Audrey, every time we share these findings, we get some reaction from the local community. This is the first time you heard some of these things. What do you think? What do you agree with? What do you disagree with? Yeah, I'll expand the argument a little bit. So the call to action in my community, look up zero to zero in the community, yeah, it's called Fork in the government. Pronunciation is very important, Fork, the government. Fork in open source, meaning take some things already there, but taking it into a more innovative new direction, like actually people on the cryptocurrency and this real edge of community knows a lot about Forks. And I'm talking about soft Forks, that is to say experiments that designed to be much back. So for example, my GoToKart.com, the website that I just mentioned, it's not a government project, it's literally a GitHub project. I also send a poll request when it visits me and it's literally built by people who got GoToKart and really want to share it with their friends and families. Now, one of the lead architects of that website, actually now works with the National Development Council, not for with and built our official portal for GoToKart owners. And you see this story repeating again and again, like our counter-pandemic work, Taiwan can help us, that's not a government website, it's literally crowdfunded on GoToKart.com and with the original goal of just putting a advertisement in your times, but it evolved into this like YouTuber showcase channel where international YouTubers share their model and compete on their best way to share their lessons. I think they're even joined by Arden as President Chenjian who recorded a YouTube clip about epidemiology, right? And that's then that to the Ministry of Health and World Health's communication efforts because we all use creative common licenses and open data licenses, it makes sure that all of the supports eventually could get merged into our own platform. And so the founders can then move on to the next slide while the public service maintains this scaffolding into a building, but the scaffolding on these platforms. By the way, I just wanted to point out that the audio somehow is working really, really well. This is surprising for organizing.  I wanna go back to what you mentioned, Taiwan can help, right? This is a big campaign, like you said, and for someone who's looking from outside in, I feel like it really hit well. It was very popular and it's being picked up, like you mentioned, around the world. What is the vision or what do you think can, some of the big outcomes you hope to get out of this? Yeah, I think one of the main ideas Taiwan can help is that we're not very picky about the topic that we can be of help. This is my name card, by the way. And it says, Taiwan can help, and next to the 17 UN Global Goals, there's even a moving forward logo to it. So full startup, like, are you to get swabs, teachers, baseball camps, or whatever, having that logo. And so the hashtag Taiwan can help is not something that's only used by Taiwanese people, it's actually remixed in every which way. We have, for example, Japanese people quoting that into their rap songs. There's literally a rap song about Taiwan can help. I'm by the Japanese team, those monos. And there's many other jurisdictions that then think about Taiwan and think about maybe just one or two things that were traditionally known to help with, right? So we talk about, of course, the semiconductors and the ICP, things like that. But we are, of course, quite strong as well on the medical assistance, humanitarian assistance, agricultural technologies, and every other thing. But by looking at the 17 Global Goals and seeing how they're next to it, then people learn that, oh, this is also about circular economy, and this is also about community building and things like that. And we take every chance, for example, I often say this jacket is made out of recycled plastic and waste, and that's circular economy and things like that. And so we all respond to the Global Goals. And so I think the main message is that we are here to help you, no matter which care of Global Goals you're working on, and as a logic, much more than any specific Global Goal. You know, I just, again, quick follow-up question. You know, when I hear you talk about many of these projects, you seem to very much in touch with the entrepreneurs themselves and the community. And I haven't seen many government people who were always doing that. In addition to being in this some industry, that's why I'm still actively participating. Can you tell us how you actually do that tactically? Like, you know, how do you make sure you're staying connected? How do you make sure you're still listening to them? Well, tactically, it means that I sleep for eight hours a week to keep my mind fresh. I make sure that I don't accept the public service event requests during the weekends, which is quite rare actually for members of the cabinet who are most busy during the weekends. But weekend is for me, for family, and for the sort of communities that I engage with. And also, when we're talking, I just saw your message on Slack and things like that. I'm like that, right? So when I go after, you know, in the weekends, I'm just on Slack full-time and responding to the new request. For example, last February, there was a guy named Power Wu from China City who posted up with the zero Slack saying, hey, I owed Google $26K US dollars in map usage for the builders, map issues, availability of masks. And that was enabled me to respond within hours saying, hey, don't pay the bill, I'll talk to Google and things like that. So this is all about a real time connectivity with the community on Slack channels. Everybody in the audience, make sure you get the direct Slack address of Audrey so you can get your debts. Okay. Yes, please, Ian, do you wanna add something? Yeah, I think I've said this now three times, but I wanna double down on something that Audrey just said because it's so important, which is this idea of the government appointing key personnel to roles of influence, right? You don't, in fact, appointing people into official government roles who have experience as entrepreneurs or in tech, who have those existing relationships in the startup community, the knowledge base, can actually be a very simple way of driving the agenda forward. My suggestion around that is similar to how you would vet a program, right? Do the work upfront, right? Make sure you've got the right people in those roles and put as few restrictions on them as possible. Let them do their thing, right? I just feel like it's the, I guess I'm talking about this in a few different ways I've talked about the policy sort of vision and then the policy implementation. And when it comes to startups, the implementation is so important because the way that entrepreneurship is organized, the way that startup communities function is so diametrically opposed to how most institutions work like governments and corporations and universities, that it's just, it's a lot better to appoint personnel, not necessarily to even a long-term role. I mean, I'm familiar with the city government of Seattle has a role called the startup advocate. And it's typically an entrepreneur who is in between companies, they're in between roles. Sometimes they do it for six months, sometimes they do it for two years. But they're basically the point person, the interface between that local government and the startup community. And it's been very effective. And it's a low cost, a relatively low cost way to make sure they've got the right information, right? And that they're responding to the community's needs in an agile way and being proactive in what those needs might be as it relates out to the government. So I really wanna emphasize what Audrey was saying and just to say that I feel like that's a simple strategy that government should be adopting everywhere. And I think Taiwanese government is very fortunate to have somebody like Audrey who's actually playing that role really well. Ian, we do have last four minutes here. Anything else you wanna add before we log you off? And then I have one question from Audrey. No, I just think that I just wanna extend some words of encouragement. It's been a real honor and a pleasure to have a front row seat to the startup community in Taiwan. Very disappointed that I'm not visiting in person. I'd like to actually be a public health refugee maybe from the United States. I need my gold card. But you're doing all the right things. It just stick with it, be patient, keep at it. Know that things can change quickly, right? This isn't a linear progression. You're pushing this boulder uphill and it feels like maybe some days it's not going anywhere. And then next thing you know, you're at the top of the hill and it starts accelerating, right? Maybe that's a bad metaphor. But the idea being you just have to keep pushing and you're doing the right things. You're just sticking with it is critical. So it's been fun to be a part of that ride and I look forward to spending more time with the community. Thank you very much, Ian. I know Ian just wants to go back for Dintai Fung. That's his favorite restaurant. And I just wanna say just for the audience that during the Meet Taipei and startup week, I had three different nights of different Zoom backgrounds of Dintai Fung. So this is a strong endorsement for me. Thank you, Ian. And Audrey, my last question is, I really liked how you explained your bio the other day to us kind of elements and traits or sort of mindsets you follow and goals. If you could maybe share with us that, I feel like that's a great way to end this conversation. Sure, definitely. So this is all about longer term thinking, this theme that we discussed today and during our preparatory meeting, I tried to put words to what I mean by long term, right? And I said, if the way that we are doing makes the world a better place when I look off compared to when I look then to the world, then it's a better thing. And I think that's the same ability and that's a really good alternate vision. And I would like for it to be a mainstream vision as opposed to this singularity vision. And that's indeed my job description, which goes like this. When we see the internet of science, let's make it an internet of beings. When we see virtual reality, let's make it a shared reality. When we see machine learning, let's make it collaborative learning. When we see user experience, let's make it about human experience. And whenever we hear the singularity, let's always remember that plurality is a lift on and prosper. And have a good look at that. Awesome, thank you very much. All right, thank you to both of my speakers today. I enjoyed it thoroughly. I hope the audience did too. We learned a lot. And again, audience, you guys have audio with you so you can continue having, asking questions, having this conversation. For me, we're checking out here. We're logging off. Hey, online. We'll take a picture of that. Oh, taking a photo. Okay, not quite yet. Okay, we'll take a photo. And quick news, that OCOE and they plan to fly over to Taiwan in March. So we are looking forward to that. And hopefully we saw our digital minister's help. Of course, of course. So we'll take a picture with Ian and OCOE and the team this way. And later, Audrey will move over here to take a picture with OCOE. So can you take a picture? She got to hide Audrey. So Audrey didn't stand. No, it's good. It's good. Okay, we're fine. Yeah, maybe like this, yeah. Okay. Maybe just like this. Okay. Thank you for being here. Yeah, she wants to talk to you. The second one.