Leadership and learning are indispensable to each other. The man who said this had considerable leadership experience to draw from. John F. Kennedy led men in combat, led a nation in turmoil, and paid the ultimate price as a leader. Whether you pursue a career in wildland firefighting or go on to a different profession, becoming a student of leadership will pay lifetime dividends to you and those you work with. Many of you are on the threshold of a difficult transition from follower to leader. You're preparing to lead those that were once peers. Why do you want to be in charge? Why would anyone want to follow you? Are leaders born or made? What can you do to become a better leader? Every firefighter who makes this transition will make mistakes. That's part of the learning process. But trial and error is not the only way to learn. The effective leader will search out and take advantage of many opportunities in their journey toward mastering the art of leadership. This training course is just one such opportunity. More opportunities will be handed to you by time and circumstance. Studying the actions of those in critical leadership roles is one way you can improve your leadership skills. In August of 1949, the wildland firefighting profession experienced one of the most significant fire tragedies in our history. Twelve smoke jumpers died at the Man Gulch Fire in Montana. The aftermath of that fire caused changes within the wildland fire profession that still affect us today. Now more than 50 years after that fire, business leaders, Marine Corps officers and wildland firefighters have gathered in Man Gulch for an event known as a staff ride. This is another leadership teaching tool. After completing a pre-reading assignment, participants go on site to walk through an incident and stop at strategic sites to discuss critical leadership actions. With each person contributing their insight on what they believe were crucial factors, the whole group gains a better understanding of the incident. We teach our people how to size up fires. We train them. We spend a lot of time thinking about it and doing it. But what do we really give them to help size up their people, especially when they've never been around them before? Just to play with that a little bit for the sort of immediate setting here. Let's say it is five o'clock. You were thrown out of the aircraft. You still don't know all the names. Here you are.  What would you have done right here at that time to begin that process? One of the first things you learned as a beginning firefighter was how to select a hand tool to take a few seconds to examine it and see if it's fire ready before heading out to the fire. The same is true now that you aspire to be a leader of firefighters. Knowing the capabilities of the individuals on your team is at least as important as your knowledge of tools and tactics. Always remember the basic test of leadership. Only the willing decision by others to follow you makes you a leader. Deciding to follow was a key factor at Man Gulch. Within two hours of landing on the ground, the smoke jumpers' situation had deteriorated and their goal of escape by outrunning the flames was eluding them. It was at this point that Wag Dodge, the leader of the group, initiated his successful escape fire and attempted to get the others to follow him into it. The decision by his firefighters not to follow him at that critical moment had tragic consequences. To get past this point, the crux of keeping this team alive is that very fateful moment somewhere after 5.50 when Dodge says, in here everybody, and at that point his own leadership did not seem to still be there at least enough to get Sally and Rumsey or anybody else for that matter to follow on in. So, working backwards from that, one way to think about this spot here is this. What are you doing at this point that might be right, might be wrong, that will then fatefully affect whether you can lead about 15, maybe 20 minutes later when it's really going to count? If you need a co-conspirator, a buddy, an executive officer, a deputy, you really need to get to know that person, especially if that person is the natural leader or the credible leader in the group. So, just in hindsight, it might have been good for Dodge to take the XO and go up and do the recce together, so they could have conspired, thought about this, and then left somebody else in charge of lunch. A simple statement like, if you think I'm missing something or not seeing something, let me know. A good example would be the destruction of the American Embassy in Beirut on the 18th of April in 83. All of a sudden, the American Embassy gets blown up and, well, we're loading boys on trucks and driving up there, and nobody knows where we're going or why we're going there, but you get down there and kind of got to make a mess of all that, and you got the media, and you got all of it. One thing I found is to get small groups together and assign projects to them, and just a little thing as important as putting your arm around someone who you're the leader of that small unit who's going to go off and do something, and you just explain the situation there and then send them off on your project, and then the next group you send off on their project, you explain what you did with the first group. Yeah. Right, Starrton Cosner's going to go down there. He's going to provide security on the war. What I need you to do is go around the backside of the building and make sure nobody sneaks in to steal documents and stuff. You know, I'm going to be here and we'll link up later. Okay, yeah. Cosner's doing this. The Nazis doing this.  And that small unit project of signing seems to be real important. And I said more about the gravity of the situation up there. It might have worked to my advantage as we're heading down to Gulch. Others are beginning now to try to solve the problem with me as they can appreciate how serious the situation is becoming. And then at this critical moment, a few minutes after 5.50 p.m., as I say, basically, in here everybody, I might have had a little bit more of a tug on them. Their leadership, their confidence in my leadership might have been a little bit stronger at that point and might have made the difference. So that actually ties into the one that I think is the most critical. Dodge needed to take a couple of minutes while he was establishing his legitimacy as a leader to explain his thoughts about how they were going to proceed over the next hour or two. So that he had some buy-in from his crew for the basic plan of attack. There is my list of great lessons here. One is a reminder strategy is everything. Dodge developed a strategy here to get these guys out, got his priorities straight on that one, obviously. But equally, time of execution is everything too. And Tom made a nice observation here. The thing is we're running about 30 minutes behind where they should have been. And slowness of execution is without question going to let somebody else get the high ground before you get there in business or anywhere else. So great strategy, but you also have to have a speed of execution. Third point I've got here is that words really count, not always, but sometimes they really do. Got to be careful how we use words with people who are looking to us for guidance. Need to make certain they hear what is intended. Words shouldn't be ambiguous. I think a good phrase that I've just heard maybe ought to be applied to just about everything we say and do and that is the this is why phrase. This is why. So whatever the instruction is, here's why we should do that. This is why we're going to do that. Next point is not only do words count, but behavior counts. And people often look to what you're doing as much as what you're saying. I think we know that pretty well. And by way of illustration here, Dodge coming back up here to grab a bite to eat, at least taking time in the minds of the men who are heading out. He's not coming out quickly. May have said to them still one more time. Situation isn't quite as grave as it was turning into. And back now a little bit ahead of the game here, but one of the elements that Dodge brought to the setting that is unequivocally what we'd like to see in all of us is a remarkable coolness under fire, if you'll pardon the expression there, because as he does see the spot fires, he's got his crew reversed. They're coming back up. The ends in sight. He says to himself by way of testimony, I've got 30 to 45 seconds to go. And then as Larry pointed out, he just sort of he hit on this tactic that had been pretty much undeveloped, unnamed, unused. So here's a guy when everybody else is looking to be on the verge of panicking, is not panicking. He's focused still trying to solve problems. And so I suppose that's a learned skill, kind of a mindset that we'd all like to see in ourselves when the pressure is really on. I'm not certain how I would have done myself here under the same circumstances. I'm sure not nearly as well, but it's good in principle to help ourselves and people who work with us when the pressure is really on to keep thinking, not turn that CPU off, to focus on the problem and not run. Just as you have had to invest time and effort to become an effective firefighter, you must also spend time and effort to become an effective leader. And just as the business, military and fire leaders you've seen are investing their time to learn from an historical event, you too should seek opportunities that enable you to become a student of leadership. In this scenario, we'll examine character and how it communicates a leader's values. Just minutes before marching his regiment into the pivotal battle of Gettysburg, Colonel Joshua Chamberlain is given responsibility for 120 mutineers from his home state of Maine. Consider Colonel Chamberlain's actions and how they demonstrate his values. Rise up, Mibucco. Oh, I'm sorry, darling, but we've got a bit of a problem here, Colonel. Would you like to hear about it? Would you wake up, sir? We've got a whole company coming, sir. This way. I'll give you time to wake up, but we've got quite a problem. Altogether, 120 men are coming. We're to be having them as guests. What? Yeah, should be here any minute. Who? Mutineers. Mutineers, Colonel Milad. 120 men from the Old Second Maine, which has been disbanded. 120 mutineers? Yes, sir. You see, what happened was that the enlistment papers on the Old Second Maine ran out. So they were sent home, all except these 120 fellas who'd foolishly signed three-year papers. Three years, that is. So these poor fellas, they got one more year to serve. Only, you see, they thought they were signing to fight only with the Second Maine, and the Second Maine only. So they quit. They resigned, you see. 120 men. Colonel, are you all right? Well, the point is, sir, these Maine fellas, they won't fight no more. And nobody can send them home, and nobody knows what to do with them. Till they thought of us, being as we are the only other Maine regiment in the Fifth Corps. So they've been assigned to us. Yes, sir. I have a message here from the new commanding general. George Mead, sir. That's right. The very own general of our very own corps has been promoted to command of the whole army. The latest, if you keep track of them as they go by. The message says they'll be arriving this morning, and they're to join us. Oh, and if they refuse to follow orders, please feel free to shoot them. To shoot them? Yes, sir. Well, these are the Maine men. They're hereby authorized to shoot any man who refuses to do his duty. Are these all Maine men? Yes, sir. And fine big fellas they are, too. Mutiny. I thought that was a word for the Navy. We'll move with sunrise. It's a good time of day. I always do enjoy this time just before the dawn. When all this is over, I shall miss it very much. Sir? I didn't mean to fight it. Well... It's all in God's hands now. Good day, sir. Good day, John. You know, sir? Can I wake them up, sir? Can I get them waked up and get going? No, Moxley.  They're going to need you. Maine, what's the year? Somewhere around 250, sir. Counting the officers. How the heck are we supposed to take care of 120 men? Colonel, it's going to be a hot day today. Scenegers have already been down with the heat. Please.  Were you awed? I've been in the infantry since she was in books. It's the first few thousand miles after that a man gets limbo with his feet. Martin Lawrence, how are you? You're looking kind of peaky. Sergeant Tom, don't call me Lawrence. Doesn't make sense. All the gun on a man to get him to fight. Detail! Attention, detail! Guards, get these men back on their feet! I'm looking for commanding officer 20th Maine. You found him. That's him, all right. You Chamberlain? Colonel Chamberlain to you. Captain Brewer, sir. 118th Pennsylvania. If you're the commanding officer, sir, then I present you with these prisoners here. And you're welcome to them. Lord knows. Had to use the bayonet to keep them moving. You have to sign for them. Sign it, Lieutenant. You are relieved, Captain. You're authorized to use whatever force necessary, Colonel. You want to shoot them? You go right ahead. Won't nobody say nothing. I said you are relieved, Captain. The men can leave now. We won't be needing any guards. My name is Chamberlain. I'm the Colonel of the 20th Maine. What did you fellas eat last? When did you have something to eat? They're trying to break us by not feeding us. We ain't broke yet.  So, uh, I'll get the cook going. The meat may be a little raw, but there's not much time to cook. We've got quite a ways to go today. You'll be coming with us, so eat hardy. We'll set you up over in those trees there. Sergeant Tozier, see to it. Yes, sir.  And then I'll come over and hear what you have to say. Colonel, we got grievances. The men elected me to talk for them. Yes. All right. You come along with me.  So we're going to get moving in a little bit. Gosh, Lawrence. Smile. Don't call me Lawrence. Are they moving? Yes, sir. What's your name? I don't feel too kind, Colonel. Yes, well, I'm usually not this informal. I just took command of this regiment a few days ago, so somebody ought to welcome you to my, uh, to our outfit.  I'm sorry. Would you like some coffee? You sure? Go ahead.  Bucklin. Joseph Bucklin. Listen, Colonel, I have been in 11 different engagements. How many have you been in? Not that many. It ain't the papers. I've done my share. We all have. The damn good men should not be used this way. They're here. I'm going to clean through. Colonel, we've got a courier coming. Listen, Colonel, I'm tired. You know what I mean? I'm tired.   They ain't fit to pour pee out of a boot with instructions written under the heel. I'm tired.  We ain't going to win this war. We can't win know-how with these lame-brained bastards from West Point, these damn gentlemen, these officers. The courier, sir. Don't go away. Colonel Chamberlain, sir. Colonel Vincent wishes to inform you that the fifth corps is moving out at once. And you, sir, with the 20th main regiment are instructed to take the lead. The 20th main has been assigned the first position in line. You will send out advance guards and flankers, sir. Flankers? Yes, flankers. Right. Yes, my compliments to the Colonel. Captain Clark, you heard him. Get the regiment up, sound the assembly, drag the tents. You better get yourself something to eat. Looks like you could use it, all right? Tell your men I'm coming. The boys from the second main are being fed, Lawrence. Yeah. Don't call me Lawrence. Down at Lawrence, I'm your brother. Well, just be careful about the name business in front of the man, all right? Just because you're my brother, it looks like favoritism. Not almighty. General Mead got his own son. It's his aid you can't. Well, that's different. Generals can do anything. I think quite so much like God on Earth is a general on a battlefield, so... Well, what are you going to do with them, huh, sir? Colonel, sir. You can't shoot them. You never go back to Maine, you do that. I know that. I wonder if they do. Colonel, sir. You know who the second main that is? Dan Burns from Ortono. I know his daddy, the preacher. Yes, that cousin I've ever heard. Those more fine swear words than any man in Maine. Man, gather round. I've been talking with Private Bucklin. He's told me about your problem. There's nothing I can do today. We're moving out in a few minutes. We'll be moving all day. I've been ordered to take you men with me.  Well, you know I won't do that. Maybe somebody else will, but I won't. That's that. Here's the situation. The whole rabami is up that road of ways waiting for us, so this is no time for an argument like this.  We're now well below half strength. Whether you fight or not, that's up to you. Whether you come along is well. You're coming. You know who we are, what we're doing here, but if you're going to fight alongside us, there's a few things I want you to know. This regiment was formed last summer in Maine. There were a thousand of us then. There are less than 300 of us now. All of us volunteered to fight for the union, just as you did. Some came mainly because we were bored at home. I thought this looked like it might be fun. Some came because we were ashamed and not too. Many of us came because it was the right thing to do. And all of us have seen men die. This is a different kind of army. If you look back through history, you will see men fighting for pay, for women, for some other kind of loot. They fight for land, power, because a king leads them, or just because they like killing. We are here for something new. This has not happened much in the history of the world. We are an army out to set other men free. America should be free ground. All of it. Not divided by a line between slave state and free. All the way from here to the Pacific Ocean. No man has to bow. No man born to royalty. Here we judge you by what you do, not by who your father was. Here you can be something. Here is the place to build a home. But it's not the land. There's always more land. It's the idea that we all have value. What we're fighting for in the end. We're fighting for each other. Sorry, I didn't mean to preach.  You talk for a while. If you choose to join us, you want your muskets back, you can have them. Anything more will be said by anybody anywhere. If you choose not to join us, you can come along under guard and when this is all over, I will do what I can to see you get a fair treatment. But for now, we're moving out. Gentlemen, I think if we lose this fight, we lose the war. So if you choose to join us, I'll be personally very grateful. Colonel, sir, it's a fine morning. Captain Spear, are we ready? Sir, that we are. Well, then let's move out. This is the second main, boys. What else? Are any of them going to join us? Would you believe it? All but six. What? I cannot by actual vote. 114 of them voted to pick up the rifle. Well, I'll be. You did good, brother. You did real good. Good. Good. You'll see to it they march together, all right? Yes, sir. Glazer got the hotheads in tow, sir. That was six of them. Come on, get their names. Put them in different companies. I want them spread out. I don't want them bunched together. Yes, sir. I'll see about their muskets. Colonel, sir. We'll see examples of three basic leadership styles. A high school football team is caught in the racial strife from integration of public schools by busing during the early 1970s. Consider the various techniques used by the coach to lead his staff and team through a field of obstacles toward a common goal. In this first example, the coach uses a directing leadership style to address a problem that needs immediate attention. Listen up.  I want all of my defensive players on this side. All players going out for offense over here. Right now. Let's move. Let's move. Let's move. Let's move.   Get comfortable, too. Because the person that I have you sit next to is the same one that you'll be rooming with for the duration of this camp. In this second example, the coach relies on a delegating leadership style when dealing with a key team member. Can I speak with you in private? What's on your mind, sir? I want Ray off the team, coach. You know my policy, Gary. Yes, I do. Kind of respected, but I know that Ray missed that block on purpose. Sometimes you just got to cut a man loose. You make a decision. But you support your decision. I don't let you play for this team anymore. Oh, yeah. Jerry Lewis. I've been going to tell Coach Coon what to do just like last time. But then that's right.  Who don't cut anybody? Remember, Gary? You willing to just throw away our friendship for them? In this third example, the coaches demonstrate a participating leadership style by sharing responsibility on several levels within the team during a critical situation. Boys are doing all that you can do. Anybody can see that. Win or lose. We're going to walk out of the stadium tonight with our heads held high. Do your best. That's all anybody can ask for. No, it ain't, Coach. And all due respect, uh, you demanded more of us. You demanded perfection. Now, I ain't saying that I'm perfect because I'm not.  None of us are. But we have won every single game we have played till now. So this team is perfect. We stepped out on that field that way tonight. And, uh, if it's all the same to you, Coach Boone, that's how we want to leave it. Yeah. I hope you boys have learned as much from me this year as I've learned from you. You've taught this city how to trust the soul of a man rather than the look of him. And I guess it's about time I joined the club. Herman, I sure could use your help.  Throughout your personal and professional life, you'll encounter a variety of ethical dilemmas. In this interview with Tom Boatner, retired chief of fire operations for the Bureau of Land Management, will examine an ethical dilemma he faced as a smoke jumper squad leader early in his career. When I was a new smoke jumper squad leader, I traveled with a group of smoke jumpers from my base to another base in response to a fairly large firebust that was going on. Turned out to be a bust that lasted for a couple weeks. And it was a firebust of historic proportions at that time. Eventually I ended up on a 10 to 12,000 acre fire with 16 jumpers.  The jumpers came from bases around the country and included three or four jumpers from my base that as a squad leader I was responsible for. And we were working for a very experienced senior smoke jumper leader from the base that we were operating out of. He was the jumper in charge in the IC until we were replaced. The fire was about 10 to 12,000 acres and our mission was to anchor in and flank and secure as much perimeter as we could until we were replaced within a day or two by a type two team and a group of fire resources that they would bring. So we jumped the fire in the late afternoon and established an anchor point and began working up the left flank. And we were working for a senior smoke jumper and squad leader from the base that we were operating out of. He was in charge. As that first evening went on, a little tension developed over a small group of us up at the front working pretty hard and driving on and this senior jumper, the guy who was in charge at the back with the rest of the crew he just didn't seem to really want to work that hard. He seemed to be focusing on not working. And I remember being puzzled by that because I thought, you know, we got a great opportunity here to contain an impressive amount of line and when whoever replaces us shows up, we can have left this great impression that 16 smoke jumpers can knock off an amazing amount of work. So I was not happy that this tension was there. Ultimately, we worked that night till one or two in the morning and then slept in the dirt for a couple hours to get a little break. It was cold. We didn't have any gear with us and we got a little bit of rest but it wasn't very high quality. Next day, again, we worked at securing perimeter all day long and that tension existed all day long between working hard and driving forward and hanging back and taking it easy. I remember being upset that we weren't more focused on getting the work done and driving on. Second evening, a light helicopter came out to bump some food and water up to us from our jump spot because we were almost out and I listened for the jumper in charge to ask him to bring up our sleeping bags so we could get a little bit more high quality rest that second night. He didn't ask and I called him on the radio and asked him, are you going to have the helicopter bump our sleeping bags up? And I remember hearing that he was not happy with me for bringing it up because I don't really think he intended to ask for our sleeping bags. I think he intended to sleep in the dirt again. Anyways, we got the sleeping bags, got four or five hours of decent sleep and worked through about the middle of the next day when we were relieved by this incoming type 2 team and other resources and we traveled back to the base that we're operating out of. At that point, he gave us a timesheet for the work we had done and I was pretty amazed and fairly angry to get a timesheet that showed us working 48 hours straight from the minute we jumped the fire to the minute we arrived back at the jump base. And I really felt like a couple of our core values were in question. We have a duty, I believe, to work as hard as we can and we have a duty to be honest in the way we log the time we work. I didn't believe he'd done either. He hadn't worked hard enough and he'd been dishonest in the way he logged his time. So my first ethical quandary was, what do I do with this dishonest timesheet? I got the guys that I was responsible for from my base together and told them I can't turn in this timesheet as dishonest. And they were all hanging their heads and scuffing the toes of their boots and nodding their head because they knew, I think they knew that what I was saying was right. And we quickly agreed that we would adjust the timesheet to represent an honest reflection of the work and the breaks we'd taken and that's what we would turn in. The second part of my dilemma then ethically was what do I do about addressing what I consider this jumper in charge, his failure to adhere to our agreed upon values of work ethic and integrity and our duty to meet those values. And I was very torn by that. It was a very busy period operationally. There were jumpers from all over the country there. I was afraid of being branded as a ratfink or a tattletail and I was afraid that I would open a can of worms that would be pretty unpleasant and pretty ugly. And ultimately I chickened out and I didn't confront this jumper and I didn't go to the base manager with my concerns. And when I look back many years later on this ethical dilemma I am happy that I had the courage to address my... the guys from my base that I was responsible for and not turning in a dishonest timesheet but I am disappointed that I didn't have the courage to finish the job and confront this guy and his base manager about his lack of integrity and his poor work ethic. Throughout your personal and professional life you'll encounter a variety of ethical dilemmas. In this interview with Tom Taylor, the district fire crew leader with the U.S. Forest Service will examine an ethical dilemma he faced as a new squad boss early in his career. I was the squad boss on a 20 person hand crew that consisted of people from three different ranger districts. We were dispatched to a fire in the North Cascades of Washington State.  So right off the bat we were kind of bummed that we were leaving the big show to head to this mop-up show. And when we get to the fire it's located in a steep narrow canyon with the main fire that was pretty much out between the main road and a river. And to the east of that river was some smaller spot fires that needed to be mopped up. So we had a 20 person crew, two Mark III pumps and about 2,500 feet of hose. The crew was split up into three squads and my squad had six people on it, one of which I had worked one season with before and then five rookies fresh from guard school from different ranger districts and so I had never met any of these folks before. Our objective was to anchor into the hand line, dig a line around the fire and tie in with the other squad that was going around the other side. So immediately upon engagement the fire activity increased and so we started spraying water on it, we disengaged and over the course of our engagement we broke two tools, blew several chunks of hose and basically abandoned the pump operation. So we went from a mop up fire kind of being bummed out to being all pumped up because we actually had fire and were digging hotline to tools breaking and hoses blowing and as an inexperienced squad boss I was starting to feel overwhelmed kind of beyond my means, you know, dealing with things that I had never really had to deal with before, broken tools, blown hose, inexperienced crew members, increased fire behavior. We had another squad show up and I was very relieved to see them because I could kind of ditch my squad off on them and hide in the back, maybe patrol the line and watch and learn how the squad boss handles these situations so A, I can learn from this and B, I can not have that stress level on my shoulders. Well, the crew boss trainee ordered that squad to go around to the other side of the fire and start building fire line over there. So here I am kind of deflated again being not really forced back into the squad leader position but having to learn in an environment that I'm not used to working in. And about that time we had a flare up that separated the SAW team from us and I was a little nervous about that because their egress had been cut off and they were unable to get to the escape route. So when the fire, the flare up died down a little bit I was able to go and grab them, bring them back with the squad and at that time a combination of fatigue, my lack of experience and kind of being overwhelmed I felt that we should disengage our side of the fire. So I called the crew boss trainee and he came over and we had a discussion and he informed me that if we could hook this fire and start flanking it that we'd be able to tie the hand line into the river. And he said we could do this if I took the SAW and he watched my squad. And here I am, I'm pumped up again, I'm totally stoked, it's like alright I don't have to watch my squad anymore I can just be a Sawyer, which is what I know. So I gladly accepted the assignment, started cutting SAW line, I ran out of fuel, went to fuel up, I noticed that the crew boss trainee was gone and I was missing two squad members. So here I am kind of deflated again.  So I continued with the SAW line until I got to the river. Then I grabbed my Pulaski, went back to the crew and we continued with the hand line and we had to turn away from the main fire and go indirect due to the fire behavior. And we made it to the river and everything was good and we high-fived and I walked the hand line back to the anchor point, walked back to the river and at that time we had about 100 spots over our line and the main fire had burned across the portion that we had gone indirect on. I called the crew boss trainee, let him know of our situation and told him that we were going to disengage and hike across the river and we would meet him on the road. The whole theme of the fire was aggressive firefighting tactics. Basically we were doing a frontal attack with single digit RHS in temperatures in the 90s and we just kept doing a frontal attack being aggressive. The hand line that I installed was actually indirect and so everybody knows but I didn't know at the time that the fire would make a run under line and walk right across it. So we disengaged and we were eating, basically hanging out and sharpening tools and eating lunch and whatnot and that aggressive theme carried on into me receiving a radio call that said get in the van and head up the road and tie in with me and that was a call from the IC. So here we are being aggressive again. We hop in the van, we drive up the road and basically the outcome of that was there were a few people that were no longer able to fight fire aggressively anymore because they were burned over and passed away and through that whole day we were just being aggressive and we weren't being intelligent. We weren't being intelligent when we reengaged without a briefing or establishing LCE&S and that aggressiveness came back and bit us in the butt and we got to a site where we felt safe and we had a chance to maybe prep that a little bit and that went by the wayside so we just basically succumbed to hanging out and waiting and the fire allows us to do certain things and on that particular day the fire didn't allow us to be aggressive and it didn't allow us to be reactive once we were in a situation where we were at a point where we had to deploy. So a few years ago I was working for Yosemite National Park and I had gotten a new taskbook I was going to be a Firefire 1 trainee and nice big taskbook nothing was written in it and we finally got an assignment and it was going to be a type 2 crew bunch of people coming together from all these parks and we met up at the Mobilization Center and the first person I meet was the crew boss full confident ex-hot shot just had the security that I needed as a trainee next guy I meet is the crew boss trainee and for me he was the exact opposite he just seemed nervous he seemed a little insecure and I just didn't get that security that I needed from him so we got the bus loaded up got ready to go and still didn't have an assignment rumor was if we didn't get an assignment everybody would go home I was totally bummed because I really wanted something in this taskbook so finally we get an assignment and we're going to Northern Nevada towards Elko and I'd never been there but the crew boss seemed happy so I was happy so I load up the bus and we start driving all night we realized that there were too many people for the bus so the crew boss trainee and crew member would ride in a rental car right behind the bus well the first gas stop we went one way they went the other and phone calls radio calls back and forth can't find each other just figured that hey we're all going to end up in the same spot let's just keep going so we get to this meadow where everybody's going to be there and we are the first ones there we beat everybody there so they made chow real fast powdered eggs standing up frozen ham for lunch in our packs but we got an assignment crew boss trainee shows up and that's the first time I saw the crew boss and the crew boss trainee argue and they argue you left me you know all this stuff no I didn't I tried to call you back and forth back and forth and then they decided hey we got an assignment let's just move on so got an assignment to go out to this fire and we're trying to find the right road we finally find what we think is the right road we head up and pretty soon it gets really bumpy and we're in a school bus you know can't go anymore the bus just isn't made for this so crew boss jumps out and we were in like a gully and low terrain so we couldn't really see the column and we could see smoke we can see we couldn't tell where it was so he jumps out heads up up where the little rise and we're waiting and waiting and pretty soon people are calling him he's not calling back we don't know where he is is he in danger columns getting bigger more smoke definitely getting a little bit closer and the panic starts the crew is starting to get nervous we're looking at the crew boss trainee he is not really making any decisions people are like okay you know you can feel that nervous energy everybody's you know columns getting bigger where is he what do we do nobody's making decisions there's like a cluster around the trainee you know make a decision and people are starting to grab fusees like you know they got strikers out there's like a mutiny going on and so he's not he's not helping out he's not being a leader at the moment so I went and sat down on the bus man the crew boss will be back I won't have to deal with what's going on outside he'll be back a couple minutes later he's still not back can't find him on the radio so I get off the bus I have a duty I have a responsibility as a trainee I got my people to lead and here I am sitting on the bus so I get off the bus and I'm watching the crew boss and the trainee and he's still not making decisions and people are starting to do their own thing and I'm watching him and still no decision so I get back on the bus and I physically sit down again and I was like well I don't like that out here maybe I'll just sit down for a while well that's not helping either because I still have this duty but I still have this loyalty to the crew boss who still isn't back so then I get off the bus and finally I'm committed alright what do you want make a decision this is what we're going to do and he's still not making a decision but then over the radio we hear the crew boss he's fine he's walking back towards the bus people are starting to hide the fuses so he comes back over and crew boss comes up crew boss trainee they start arguing you left me you abandoned us you left the bus and the word abandoned came up I didn't abandon you guys I wouldn't do that to you I was being a look out I wouldn't do that to you guys and then they realize the whole crew is staring at them as they're arguing with each other and then they try to go around the bus well we can still hear them arguing and yelling and everything so then crew boss came back and it was like I apologize to you guys I did not abandon you I wouldn't do that this is what I was trying to do I'm sorry I didn't portray that to you guys and tell you what I was doing this is what happened but you could feel the physical split I mean half the crew really thought that we had gotten abandoned and were scared and angry about that acting as a lookout finding out where the fire was so there was a definite split and it didn't ever get mended and never got resolved the crew boss came back and apologized I didn't abandon you guys but it was done the crew had been split I never had to make that choice of my loyalty to the crew boss who I liked and the crew boss trainee who I didn't trust his decisions and I never had to make that decision but I think it was just a precursor just a catalyst for the events that would happen my dilemma got solved pretty much all by itself because I never had to make that decision I never had to choose the crew boss or the crew boss trainee I was literally saved by the bell and he came back in time where the decision was made the crew the gap in the crew though never got resolved the dilemma of the split got even maybe even bigger over the next couple of days to the point that the crew boss and the crew boss trainee never mended their relationship and it never mended the crew and so it was easier for the crew boss trainee to take logistical assignments and to not be necessarily in the picture and the crew boss took over the crew and over the next couple of days we took an assignment on the Sadler fire and the I was part of the burn squad that was chosen by the crew boss I was on that side of the bus per se and I was definitely on that side where I agreed with him and so I was chosen for that burning assignment and out of that the four of us that were originally chosen as the burn squad and then the two that were added on later the six of us had a smoke inhalation of some point from the burn over and to all the six of us ended up in El Goh Hospital with secondary burns I fuel encounter a variety of ethical dilemmas in this interview with Bill Middleton retired assistant chief for the San Diego fire rescue department will examine an ethical dilemma he faced toward the end of his career I retired from the San Diego fire department about a year ago my last position was assistant chief and so I had things that I had to deal with come across my desk pretty regular this one I'm going to tell you about now is one that came at the end of my career and it was pretty challenging it was an issue that concerned the activity surrounding an engine company responding to an incident this engine company came to work they had a captain and an engineer and the engineer was on the captain's list he anticipated a promotion in the next several months and so they had arranged for him to take advantage of an opportunity to get some acting captain time so they swapped positions the captain drove the fire engine engineer was the acting captain early on in their shift they picked up an incident it was a medical aid and it came in as a report of a 23 year old female in cardiac arrest as the crew was getting ready to respond to the incident they got on board the rig and they pulled out and they noticed smoke off in the distance and it appeared to be a structure fire it happened to be along the route of response that they were going to take to the medical aid incident they had a discussion the captain and the acting captain had a discussion along the way they could drive as close as they could without deviating and take a look at it and radio into fire communications tell them what the fire looked like make a recommendation on what they needed to send over there and continue on to the medical emergency as they got closer to the smoke they saw that it was in fact a structure fire and they got about a block away and they saw quite a few people standing on the corner waving a man aggressively you know and it was pretty apparent that the folks thought they had a significant problem there and they thought that help was on the way the driver, the captain couldn't see the fire real well but the acting captain could and he believed he saw a working fire on the second floor of an apartment house he picked up the mic and he radioed fire communications and told them that and he added that he believed that there was a imminent need for rescue and that he was going to divert from the medical emergency over to the structure fire and ask fire communications to assign a second engine to work with the ambulance on the medical emergency they responded over to the fire didn't quite turn out to be what they thought it was going to be it was a building adjacent to the apartment building it was well involved in fire it was very much contained to the exterior of the apartment so they didn't have a bigger problem as they thought they did about the time they got there the battalion chief arrived and he was the supervisor the first alarm assignment he came up and spoke to the captain said hey I heard you on the radio he said not sure this was the best decision I'm kind of curious why you didn't continue on your response to that medical emergency the captain acknowledged that in hindsight that probably would have been the better thing to do but there was a lot of factors there and so the battalion chief said well we're going to have to obviously discuss this some more he went to his boss shift commander deputy chief they decided that the situation required a fact finding they bounced it off of the director of operations who worked down the hall for me and he agreed and so they in fact did put together a fact finding and a couple of weeks later the results of that fact finding he ended up on my desk real comprehensive job told the whole story and it looked like there might have been an issue there that didn't suggest good decision making struggle with a few conflicting values the first that we have a commitment to the public we have a commitment to the citizens to deliver that prompt response when we say we're going to and we're going to be out there to solve their problem also had a issue that was specific to the organization itself we have a concern and a priority on adherence to our standards it's the backbone of our integrity it's the expectation that the organization works with predictability and with consistency and does the right thing and then ultimately if I needed to do anything directly to these two individuals in addressing this situation I wanted to make sure that the organization was fair to them gave them an honest look because we charged them with making critical decisions in a very short time frame I didn't want the outcome from that to be one that would suggest that management is looking to second guess these decisions and at the same time make sure that all of those captains out there understood that there's a high expectation for good decision making after a real careful review of the fact finding results and a lot of consideration of all of those values I basically arrived that there was an error made here the question that I had in front of me now is how to deal with that error in the San Diego Fire Department probably like most organizations we had an application of a variety of different forms of discipline everything from something equivalent to a slap on the wrist to termination and along the way those different levels of discipline can have some remarkably long lasting effect on an individual's career these were two good people in fact I was impressed with their ownership of their responsibility in this whole situation they were accountable they didn't shy away from it they owned every bit of it it was a true reflection I thought of their values at the same time I think they made an error what we arrived at was writing them a reprimand which was just short of a level of discipline that would have affected their careers would have affected promotions would have affected an awful lot of their future and these were two good people I didn't want to see that happen in addition to that we played the tape of the mother who called in that run and asked them to listen to it there's a detachment out on that engine company from that contact with the people that called for that help needed them to hear that and then we had a long conversation about ethics about decision making about trying to establish priorities and in this particular case making sure that when you deviate from a department policy a department standard that you've got a very strong defensible priorities saying that that was the right thing to do I've looked back on that decision that I made to deal with this circumstance quite a few times and every time I feel comfortable that it was handled appropriately I think we had a responsibility to the citizens to make sure that if we identified an error made that it's dealt with and we did I think that we chose a course of action that made sure that the two individuals involved understood the error that was made and the responsibility they have for accountability to their actions and their outcomes of what it is that they're responsible for and I also believe that the message reaffirmed to the other members of the organization that we weren't simply looking for problems and that when we found problems we didn't feel it necessary to rewrite our standards and policies we just had to take a look at the individual issue and determine if there was a right or wrong and if there was a wrong and not undermine the expectation for that good performance out there and for that expectation of accountability. All right folks, let's go ahead and get started on the after action review for the horse creek burn we had a pretty good day out there the purpose of this after action review is to focus on the what not the who we want to learn from today's burn and apply as much of that knowledge as possible into the next burns. We all know this was a big deal in our agency set up, sat on the shelf for two years there was a lot of pressure to get this done and we're going to be doing more of this probably doing a lot of these burns in the future so what I'd like to do is capture as much knowledge and learn from our mistakes and learn from our positives today and wrap that up into the burn package the ground rules are very simple for the after action review let's not make it personal, let's keep it professional and please don't interrupt each other let folks say their piece get their comments out but do try to keep your comments short so we can get out of here before it gets too much later and then the final thing is what's said here stays here and there's a caveat attached to that what I need to do is to capture as much information in writing so we can put it into the packaging if Pete you could take notes for us and the way we want to take the notes is I'll give you an example if we decided that through this after action review the lace didn't fill up the drip torches and that led to a delay getting ignition started we wouldn't say that we would say make sure drip torches have filled up the night before to avoid delays in the morning so we don't attach names it's not about blame I'm sure as we go through this all of us are going to focus on things we could have done differently so let's just keep the names out of it and let's make sure we capture the important points and we'll get it wrapped up okay is everybody good to go? we get started I'm going to go off the IRPG the simple four question format after action review page 17 and let's start with the first question what was the over objective of the burn? well the objective it was a fuels reduction burn we were looking to reduce hopefully 75% of the fuel loading in the area with as minimal damage as we could to the mature trees in the area those were our primary objectives as far as what was planned the as you mentioned the horse creek burn we kind of had to sit on the shelf for a while a lot of time effort went into the planning the writing of the burn plan but busy season we were kind of slow out of the shoot to get things going didn't have quite enough talent on the district or qualifications so brought some of you folks in to help us out okay alright real good let's focus on the planning part the first question what was the ignition pattern Chris you're the ignition specialist out there today what was your plan for firing the unit well the plan was Curtis to start up in the northeast corner with two ignition teams one larger than the other with Curtis or with Travis excuse me holding for us to light a test fire and if that went well to proceed and tie it down into horse creek and then also to take fire south along the ridge okay what was the plan for holding Travis you were the holding specialist out there what was what would you foresee that was pretty straight forward keep it in the unit you know I'm holding this ridge and this is the hand line so I focused a lot on that I wasn't as concerned with the drainage but you know I had a hand crew up there and we had engines at the road pretty straightforward holding show okay let's move on to what actually happened we started burning I believe it was about nine o'clock we started ignition Chris why don't you fill us in on that yeah Curtis it was about nine o'clock we had ignition with the test fire test fire went well from that point we got to go from you and fired back to the west along the north perimeter and then began taking fire as well down the south end okay the two engine captains what did you think of the test fire things progressed I thought that test fire was going well Chris and Travis we all worked together and we were in agreement that the test fire was in meaning our objectives at the time of the test fire cool can you make sure you capture that piece in the notes test fire looked good Lace yeah I agree it looked really well I mean it was actually what we wanted so I agree okay so I think we're all in agreement that test fire was good we got progressing up Travis he started firing up the ridge Mark what how did things look from down there and you had the local fire department well you know we came in pretty nervous with the residents all concerned because we're burning in their back yard so with the smoke and everything they were a little concerned but I was pretty happy what I saw with the test burn and what was going on so from my point of view it was a good thing all right if I remember right about 1100 things started to change I always want to move ahead because it seemed like it was pretty much uneventful up to that point if I correct me if I'm wrong folks but I believe the burn pattern looked about like this does that look close yeah that's pretty good okay so let's take it up to 11 o'clock we got the firing to this point Chris you're running ignitions and you're at this point what what's going on well about 11 o'clock we got about there things were going really well winds were in good shape with good fire behavior but we got into an area that that surprised us that there wasn't the prep hadn't been completed through there so the prep wasn't completed we're still continuing to fire as conditions were still pretty optimal as far as getting the objectives met and shortly thereafter we got a little bit of a wind shift and got a spot fire across the line okay let's hold it up there now Travis you're holding and you're up there with Chris Chris was saying that he didn't feel the prep was the standard how do you feel about that well it's hard to say but I agree with him because I'm the one that did the prep but what he's right it wasn't it wasn't done as well as it had been previous to that all the area before so yeah it's true okay we can touch on that a little more in question three so everyone's in agreement that the prep probably wasn't done or was not done the standards up on the ridge yeah that was a big part of it Curtis the other part is it was probably my fault as much as anything I didn't get out and scouted ahead of time I knew most of the folks we worked together when I brought the module over of hot shots Travis was the only one that hadn't worked okay and what we'll address that as we go on I just want to make sure that everybody's comfortable with that statement that there are some issues with the prep now you were firing pretty aggressively if I remember right you covered that distance in a very short time what were you thinking with that well the conditions were going well and probably got a little bit overzealous and tried to get her done a little faster and we really needed to the first part was going well we covered quite a bit of country and the winds were real favorable so we continued thought it may be just a short section of prep and so we decided we'd continue to go for it okay well let's bump the timeline up somewhere just after 11 if I remember right Travis somebody called in a wind shift is that correct about 11 o'clock yeah oh Scott that was you you were taking one I was taking weather and about 1115 or so we started getting strong winds out of the west so we got a wind shift just to visualize here you got a more of a west component and you contacted everyone on the radio I did yes and whereas in communication with ignitions and holding okay so then we got it's about 1115 I think is when we had spot fire right and that took place just over the ridge right here Travis why don't you why don't you fill us in on what happened at that point it was it was pretty amazing how quickly it happened as he called in the wind shift and right away we got a spot and as holding I contacted Blake and let him know the general area and right away he knew where it was and he knew the best quickest way to get there and he was on top of it and got there and trying to get down there with the holding forces but he pretty much had it wrapped up okay so you took action on the spot why don't you go ahead and show us what happened here on the table all right kind of pretty familiar with this area and notice the wind switch I was kind of ready for it we came right in here and I had the Forest Service guys right off the bat started doing a little structure protection I called Mark because he had the bigger engine to come in and the other engine was actually on the fire when Mark got here he took over the structure and the other engine helped on the fire and the spot fire actually went better than I thought I thought it was going to blow out but everybody worked well together and we hammered it even with the wind that kind of pushed him towards the cabin but the propane was an issue but everybody did really well and hammered it and you knocked it down about an acre yeah probably an acre now Mark you were out there you brought your structure engine from the fire department what was going through your head with the structure engine our guys got the proper PPE for the structure so we bunkered up got around the house deployed our hoses and you know we secured the propane tank the other guys are pretty good at with the hazmat stuff and the propane so we felt there was no issue with the propane but we had everything secure while the other two engines did their thing out there in the spot fire so I thought from our point of view we worked really good all three engines I appreciate you guys being there it made it a lot easier for us to do our thing knowing you're back there I also thought the communication between the three engines was really good I mean the focus we took care of the structure and we went out and took care of the wildland so I thought that communication between the three engines was really good also okay in the interest of time what I'd like to do is if everybody's in agreement we just kind of go back to the burn the spot's wrapped up and then we progress with the firing operation down the ridge and back to the creek and is everybody okay with moving on to that on the second question I'm going to address some of these issues on the third question so Chris you guys regrouped and you started going down the ridge yeah once we got the spot under control we kind of transitioned back into those initial roles of ignition and holding and we continued to progress down the ridge had to take the crew while they were working on the spot fire down below we couldn't really access it so we took the hotshot crew and they continued to prep to the end and then we had the ignition team go ahead and finish down on the ridge and it went well from there okay let's go ahead if everybody's cool we'll call that good and let's jump into why it happened and the white part I'd like to focus on on the spot fire you mentioned that you didn't seem like you were surprised with the spot you've worked in this area a lot did anything you can add to this yeah about every day about that time it shifts there and I've been on the district for 15 years so I didn't surprise me, I was just hoping I'd be wrong, I wasn't I sure wish you would have said something it's briefing, you could have planned for it you know I kind of I should have be honest a little but hurt that I wasn't involved a little more with my experience and so I kind of I should have said something on further of why this probably happened it was probably, we mentioned a little bit about the pressure, I think there's a little pressure to get this thing done and a hurry we're up against the end of the fiscal year and like I said earlier it's been a busy year fighting fire even though we had this thing on the shelf ready to go we didn't spend a whole lot of time from a district perspective getting it ready for you guys we had to ask folks to come in and help I had a lathe off doing other things at the time we had Travis down to help us prep big learning lesson notes I'll put down for ourselves is to treat every burn even though this was only 100 acres I think we were pretty relaxed knowing you folks were here to help we should have stepped it up a notch and been a little bit more prepared for you and we certainly could have scouted that line as well and Mr. Gordon as a district FMO you know in the roll-up if we can get this type of stuff captured that'll help us back at home too because we're under the same pressure isn't it okay I think we've kind of slid into that to the final question on what we can do next time there's a good lead Pete with the sounds like for the most part just slowing down taking our time getting together talking about stuff lace I think we kind of caught kind of wrapped up what we talked about get you get you folks you guys that have been around for a while more involved in the planning is there anything that you could have done different on the day of the burn you know I should have spoke up and I should have maybe even came out a little early and drove the line and you know I could have said we need to fix that one area and I should have spoke up mainly and it's just like with Mark the positive is having you here and the thing to learn from is to have you more involved yeah sometimes you know when there's a lot of overhead you get a little intimidated don't want to say much and you know I felt like maybe you guys wouldn't listen to me so I didn't talk back to the day I'll do whatever you say alright say that Kevin and I don't want to worry this topic out I just want to make sure that we're in agreement for holding an ignition that we can all and everybody else that we need to take a look at our prep probably have better standards more involvement does that sound good? and then Chris if we had to do the same burn again over tomorrow how would you do your ignition pattern as far as ignition a little bit slower that you know one of the keys is getting folks out there and ensuring the prep's done maybe have a couple of folks to clean it up as we go but again just take it a little bit slower and be a little more mindful of what's happening with the wind and we got into the fuel Scott you've been pretty quiet today anything you want to add? just something I was noticing with operations when we did get the spot fire I think as something that we could use as a collective group is we could have discussed trigger points a little more profoundly in the briefing that if this does something does happen on the lee side of the ridge there that this is what's going to happen we're going to stop ignition holding is going to hold the engines are going to go over there and we'll have that trigger point in place that we can use next time that's the excellent suggestion something else as far as the future some of the contingency stuff was a little bit unclear in the briefing and that was me as burn boss I've got a 70 page burn plan in my pocket and I think I talked about 15-30 seconds about contingency and fortunately you guys are here so that's a good one for me to take home Chris I think you're working on that the way you're asking each of us before in the briefing you should have done that too maybe said Leith how do you feel about this and Mark how do you it was kind of you did your briefing okay so open it up give a little more time for questions at 20 second pause for questions in the morning and I know you're in a rush to you know we're in the window so it was perfect and that's what I was thinking the whole time as we got to get started but that's a good point if we had talked before I would have known some of these things okay I know I think we all probably want to get home it's been a long day anything else to wrap it up you want to thank everybody for helping us meet these targets meet the calls on the district for me I appreciate all the help and good work for those of you visiting and my own guys too thanks and we'll get this AAR this roll up will be in the final package as we all know this is interagency and it's been a big deal so I know my boss and I think all of our bosses want to look at this and it will be in the package for next year