All of them frothing at the mouth, falling over, imagining that they're having exorcisms. The exorcist closes the door behind me and he's got five of his mates in there. There's a very scary situation for you. His entourage had blocked our access. And he just comes up to me like he's in a movie and he goes, he's having a go at me about the Falklands. Andrew, how are you good, sir? I am very well. Thank you, Chris. Thanks for having me on the show. Hey, it's my absolute pleasure. I just, first off, it's wonderful to be chatting to another podcaster. Not just another podcaster, but someone who's mastering the podcast game. I know that from what we've chatted before that your audio podcast is really, really getting high figures, Andrew, but also that Sean, Sean Atwood, who Sean and I have known each other for, gosh, I think three years now been on each other's podcasts quite a few times, that he's asked you to co-host for him, that's elevating you to podcast royalty. Yeah, it's been really, really nice, actually. Well, Sean first came on, so my podcast is called On the Edge with Andrew Gold. On the Edge because I talk to all sorts of fringe people from psychopaths and murderers to a woman who remembers everything since she was born. She got this memory and a man who survived a plane crash and had to eat his friends. But there are also people like Richard Dawkins and John Ronson. Anyway, so that podcast I had Sean Atwood on because he was a perfect guest for On the Edge fringe things with his true crime background and he was a smuggler and all that kind of thing in the States and went to prison. So he came on and we got on really, really well and then his producer, Ash, got in touch just a bit ago. Sean was a bit under the weather and said, take hold of the fort for a little bit on YouTube. So I've been presenting and doing journalism for years and years and I thought, okay, yeah, why not? I've not really done this as a YouTube live stream. And I started doing it and it's been brilliant because I had left my own YouTube a bit behind. So I had the audio podcast On the Edge with Andrew Gold doing really, really well, getting in all the top rankings and I didn't really bother with YouTube. So my early episodes on YouTube I didn't even have the video. It was just audio, which is useless for YouTube. Now it's all the video and everything. But that meant that I hardly got any views but then doing co-hosting for Sean and extra 1000 or so subscribers have come over so far and more and more come in every day. So I've started to take it more seriously. I've just bought a posh camera like cost all my money I've got to get that. It's going to arrive later. Which one did you buy one of these?  It's a mirrorless camera which is like the next stage beyond DSLR cameras. I'm reluctant to say because I wanted them to give me a free one and they didn't. I got this microphone free from shore so I don't mind saying that. But I don't whatever. It was a Sony A6400 which is the one that a lot of YouTubers are getting. It's just getting it second hand. That was 700 quid, just second hand and then a lens. You've got to get a lens. I was told to get the Sigma 16mm 1.4 frame or something, the lens you pop on it. That's 250 quid. And then there's all sorts of bits and pieces you need to be able to use it as a webcam. So it's ended up costing me like 1200 quid which for me is quite a lot of money to be honest. But let's see the results. It should be arriving later today actually. Unfortunately I didn't have it ready in time for this but it's coming soon. I'm going to start taking YouTube very seriously. So yeah, I'm hoping that more and more people come over and take a look at On the Edge with Andrew Gold on YouTube. Yes, I'll tell you a funny thing, Andrew. I'm better doing live shows on YouTube than I am pre-recorded. Spontaneous. Well, it's more that I like to be performing. That sounds a bit prissy. I don't mean it like that. But when you've got a live chat going on there and people, hey, Chris, you've got half an eye on that and your other eye on your screen with the internet up and you've got some videos and stuff there that you're chatting about.  You have to be on your A-game. Okay, there's a little glitch but that's okay. Whereas if I just sit here and try and pre-record all that I feel a bit silly a guy in a room talking to himself. Oh, right. But you're talking to me. I'm here. Yeah. I mean, this is obviously, this is a podcast but what I mean is the big thing about YouTube is you have the ability to go live, don't you? Which is unique in podcasting because if I say I want to do a reaction video and I want to talk about, hey, Bill Gates has just given, you know, he's just been on holiday with Tony Blair and I want to comment on that. If I try and do that pre-recorded and I'm sitting here it feels weird just sat talking to myself in a room with a record button on. But if I do that with an audience, albeit an audience I can't see I can just see their avatars when those that are in the live chat it does something. It makes you play your A game but the problem is YouTube had just demonetized almost every live video that I do and then you have to appeal it and wait two weeks for them to review it and go, oh, yeah, actually, sorry.  It's a shame, isn't it? And of course, by the time that two weeks has gone you've lost all your views. Everyone's watched it in that two weeks. You might get a trickle of views after. So all of that advertising has gone to YouTube. Yeah. Well, I'd say a couple of things about that. I think firstly, I totally agree.  Right? That's how it works. But the way it worked on TV wasn't like that. It was more like the advertisers were like, right, there's a free space here. We'll put our advert in it. And nobody then, if the video, if the documentary say, or the movie was about a very controversial subject, the advertiser wasn't linked to it in the break, right? So it's like, it could be something very controversial about, you know, the white stuff, let's say that you're referring to. Then there's a break and you see, I don't know, Dan on yogurts or whatever. Nobody's thinking the yogurts are related to the white stuff. But this is the problem with YouTube. It does get linked and the advertisers don't want that. So I understand it from that perspective. But the dangerous thing is it now means that we are encouraged as creators to be as bland as possible, never to question the narrative. And that's where more and more people are getting their information. I don't watch TV. We all watch YouTube. And it means we can't say what we want to say. So it means entertainment's getting blander and blander. And the truth is getting more and more obscured and different views are being obscured. It's very dangerous. I don't know what the answer is because I respect that advertisers don't want to put their names on stuff that's controversial. But I'm worried about what that means for us as content makers. I think for the record, Andrew, I think it's also a bit deeper than that. I think that you'll find that these advertisers are part of some sort of conglomerate, if that's the right word, a collective. I think you'll find the collectives controlled by BlackRock who own leading shares in everything. And as the leading shareholder, they'll say to YouTube, we're not going to sponsor these videos. It's nothing to do with the fact that the companies don't... Because Coca-Cola doesn't care if a video... And let's just say it's about adults that have been improprietists with young people. Try not to say the key words here, folks. But a very incredibly emotive subject. Coca-Cola doesn't care if there's a Coke advert in the middle of that because if that video is saying on someone like Sean's show and it's going to get 300,000 views, that's 300,000 people that might go, oh, do you know what? I just fancy a Coca-Cola. I mean, that's what advertising is. So I think it's deeper and darker than companies don't want. You're right. You're not being paid by Coca, are you, Chris? I would just like to say that in the morning, I slapped Bulldog on my face because... I've got that. It's the moisturising cream for men. I mean real men. Look at that, see? I've got that one. Do I have to do a disclaimer now that I'm not getting paid by Bulldog? Yeah, maybe. Maybe. There it is. Yes. This is what I love about podcasts and you can have this banter whereas with the old-school broadcast and it was right, you're coming on at this time, we'll give you three minutes' notice and you're going to talk for 20 seconds and that's it. Look, that's the other reason that I think you enjoy doing your live streams because you've got a big following so you can feel like you're not talking to an empty room and I thought about that the other day, that would be nice but I don't yet have that YouTube following so I would still be talking to an empty room or something even more awkward. There might be one or two people there just watching me, the only people in the room which is a bit awkward so you've got to get to that point. What I'd say there is if you're not playing a YouTube algorithm, i.e. no one's going to want to watch anyone talk if they're talking about a baked bean can or what they have for breakfast but if you can hit that subject that triggers people then you just repeat, repeat, repeat and the snowball effect that's what works really well on YouTube whereas the audio podcast, it's different the audio, you know, on audio you've got people that just really want to listen to something let's just say a bit intellectual while they're doing a boring job or they're driving to work in the morning or they're lying in bed on us. I purposely mix it up on the audio I purposely think, okay well I had a psychopath last week so this week I want to have a former Scientologist whereas what you're saying I think is right with YouTube it's like I know that my psychopath ones have done really well so I should just keep interviewing psychopaths and keep going with that but I want to mix it up so it all just takes time I'm excited about it all but, you know, yeah I'm excited, it's getting there, it's getting there. So if you found that your psychopath podcast did really well what you then do is you do some live shows and get some video up that you can get on the screen and you say and you put your thumb there and out today Andrew's chatting about what makes a psychopath tomorrow or three days later you do one world's most famous psychopaths three days later why are psychopaths so why is it they seem to be so prevalent at this moment in time? Having said that, what do you think? I say it's because I think Andrew, back in the days of community if you had a psychopath in your community and people started to realise they're using their devious ways to control people they would have branded them like a wizard or a witch and they'd cast them out the village and then they'd, you know, wander from town to town and probably die in a ditch or something now we're living in this world where everyone lives in their home bubble you communicate over the internet like go and see anyone anymore you even work from home which is, you know, cough, cough a byproduct of what's been going on for the last two years and so psychopaths can very well operate without anyone knowing who they are Do you have any kind of view on that? Or in an office environment you can be like a psychopath in the office and then you can go home and no one knows you and I used to work with a guy like this and when he was outed it was really weird because to me he was a really good guy he got on really well then people said, no Chris, he liked you and he played you as his like trump card against everybody else but the stuff he was doing say to some of the young women in the office was just basically bullying them Yeah, well I think your first point about why it feels that there's more psychopaths in a sense now I think it's more just an awareness so I think there's 1% of the world are thought to be psychopaths so the first thing to say is that I mean it's a spectrum I don't think it's as simple as this we like to believe that, don't we, from movies and things this person's a psychopath, this person is not that's an empath I think it's a lot more complicated than that in reality and there are different aspects to what makes a psychopath you can get all different kinds of ones but the general common denominator is a lack of empathy they're not able to empathize it doesn't mean they want to go around killing people they generally don't be good for them because they'd be going to prison so what's the point a lot of them don't get much enjoyment from killing why would you do that but they're just not that bothered about your problems now you might know loads of people who are just not that empathetic so at what point do you call them psychopaths and generally there's a the hair test it was called HARE and the checklist so you score yourself there's like 20 questions things like do you have grand illusions or do you think you're better loads of things about that and if you score over 30 out of 40 you're considered a psychopath I think in the UK and America it's different like in one of the countries if you score over 20 you're a psychopath so most of us probably score somewhere between 5 and 15 on that list and you might change over the years because empathy can be taught so that's an interesting thing as well like are you a psychopath for life can you be taught some form of empathy at least in the early years so I think movies and books about psychopaths have made them seem more prevalent but they've always been there and then there are different types of psychopaths as well you talk about manipulating and how we might try and manipulate people I had a professor of linguistics on a few months ago which sounds rather boring I'm a bit of a linguist myself I speak five languages I'm really into languages Can I just interrupt and say that would be my ideal podcast well I've written six books I love language my brother got an honours degree in linguistics and as he was studying he's just given me these little tidbits all the time well this Chris you can see this mechanism here in speech performs this function and I just absolutely loved it well the two people I've had on about linguistics one was John McWater who's quite a famous outspoken sort of anti-woke kind of guy and he talks about the origins of swear words and things like that and then the other person was Professor Lyra Boroditsky and she's just an amazing fascinating woman and she talked a lot about whether languages that we learn can change the abilities we have in our brains so there's a tribe in Australia that she went to visit that are able to use directions in terms of north, west, south and east they don't use right and left so they say oh yeah that's just the east of you now if you think about how crazy that is because if you turn around it's still east over there and it's still west so they have compass points in their brains because of a different language they spoke so she talks about that but one interesting thing she said was language is manipulation what is language? why do we need language? you need to be able to manipulate your mother to feed you you need to be able to manipulate people and on a basic level that's no bad thing we do it to cooperate and we use it in good ways but I would say we are all manipulating one another even in a tiny form or in a huge way like psychopaths might do so then there are three main ways of manipulating because we want status in our lives so I had a guy called Will Store on the podcast who talks about the status game and all of us want status that's what we all need the reason we want status is because if you were in a tribe many many years ago we had 200,000 years or 300,000 as hunter-gatherers that's a long time for our brains to evolve to fit the tribal way of living when we were in tribes if you had a good status you would get more of the food and there were three ways to do that one is success so you can be successful by building the wheel inventing the wheel and everyone's going to be like have some of our food you can eat tonight you built the wheel with us so if you're very successful in life it gives you status, it feels good another way is dominance that's where you get that alpha male but you can get alpha females of course as well people who just bully and those are probably the psychopaths you might be talking about they push them that kind of very obvious way if you bully people you'll get more of that food people will be scared not to give it to you the third type is the most interesting to me and that's virtue and what that means is you appear to your tribe to be the nicest person everyone wants to share their food with you because you helped everyone you did a nice thing but the interesting thing is there that it's not the person who is the most virtuous who gets the most food it's the person who is able to convince others that they are the most virtuous so if you're somebody who's very good at making it look like you're a nice person you'll get more food so psychopaths might operate in any of those three ways they might try to be as successful as possible they might try to dominate people but they might also do a lot of virtue signalling there is thought to be a much higher ratio of psychopaths among those who virtue signal which is you know on Twitter saying saying like they believe in a lot of causes and things and they want to help what they're really doing is signalling to you they want you to share your food with them that's what that is so many different ways a psychopath might act that it's just fascinating you never know and the spectrum things interesting because as a podcaster you've got this dimension of your personality that's online and it's a completely different well gosh I'm struggling for the words is it completely different to your personal personality because obviously when you're online you try to be a nice person because otherwise people aren't going to watch you but then you turn this camera off and this microphone and then go and shout at the misses have I done that yes of course I have I'm human I can be absolute dickhead but yeah it is funny you can really craft a personality a virtue signalling oh look it was in terror and all you're doing is playing to people they're going to hit the like button if they think that you're a guy like you share the same I mean it's interesting isn't it this is something they call parasocial interaction and it was sort of started in the 1950s with talk show hosts it was the first time probably ever maybe radio hosts before that where you had what would normally be a two-way conversation but was just one way this was a new thing after 300,000 years of evolution of man well we've been evolving for longer than that 300,000 years as humans it's the first time we've really had anything like that a one-way communication that will forever stay one way and the best hosts were good at something called parasocial interaction which is this ability to make the person feel as though it's a two-way conversation feel as though they are friends with the host and that became this really fascinating phenomenon and it's why we love celebrities and we feel like they're our friends if Leonardo DiCaprio suddenly walked in my brain wouldn't fully understand because it would look like it's a mate of mine and I'd go oh hi Leo and then I'd have to remind myself he doesn't know who I am he's never seen me but he seems like my mate and the talk show hosts of course are here at this and people who are good at podcasting also tend to be good at cultivating this kind of parasocial interaction it's what you and I do and it doesn't mean we're faking things it doesn't mean that necessarily but somebody could do that so that's the interesting thing there and that's why YouTubers are always always particularly the young ones talking about the word authenticity they're saying I'm so authentic and they'll get into YouTube wars with other YouTubers and say oh he's fake he's inauthentic because authenticity is the thing that everybody is after because where do we get it everything in our lives seems so fake these days everything is planned and acted so when you find somebody online who you relate to and you go that person's being real that's like a diamond that's a gem you want to keep that relationship but it can be cultivated for example by psychopaths by people who are very good at manipulating people who are in real life you know what I mean Yes just a tip for you if Leonardo does come into your place watch the fridge because he will just clear out your fridge mate Andrew I'm glad you said that last because it's just remind me I'm not a psychopath because I've probably now sat here thinking that I am simply because I have some simple philosophies for life and and I think all born off the back of having some quite severe challenges at times and not wanting to have them again and authentic so I am authentic in that I want other people to understand there's so much lies and bullshit in society and if you buy into that crap you're just going to have a really challenging you know life is just so so simple get up love yourself smile at the sun to say thank you to express gratitude for this one chance you get in this cluster of molecules Is love yourself a euphemism? Hey you know in whatever format it takes folks and it really is that simple look why because as hunter-gatherers it's not natural to be sat in front of this bloody thing all day like it's just not if you don't get some air in your lungs you're not living in tune with this you say 300,000 years I think we've been lied to I think it could be significantly longer if you think that Jesus lived 2,000 years ago probably look no different to what I look now and then anyway that's probably another subject but you know again hunter-gatherers I'm really big on on diet because you've got to keep your body in the pH the pH sorry folks 7.25 which is what nature intended and which is what western toxic diet I say western we should call it toxic diet now takes you so far away from that hence why so many people suffer so much ill health throughout the year you know all these coughs, colds and flu and they then blame it on somebody so they go their whole life thinking a cold is something you catch or somebody else so I'm authentic there Andrew I'm just telling you people what I've learned in 52 years and what really really works that's what it's about man the importance of when you're in a challenging situation you've got to take action when you're depressed anxious you know up against whatever you've got to take action you've got to make that phone call to your boss and say look I'm sorry I quit or you've got to speak to that person you've fallen out with them say look we've got to get some resolution here you've got to get to B&Q buy the paint that you said you're going to paint the fence and off the back of that simple thing buying that paint your cosmic karmic payback it just goes up tenfold it's like Jordan Peterson that's what he says make your bed yeah exactly if you make your bed in the morning when you literally look backwards and you've got oh my bed's all day already just by something that is so simple that says so much about how you the respect you've got for yourself and that you want to get your day in order right from the beginning gosh I don't know where we go next because you've you have fascinating knowledge Andrew in so many Irish we take the exorcism thing sure sure yeah that was documentary I made not for the BBC because I made it myself and then sold it to them after but I was living in Argentina and I saw on TV all the time there was this fella this exorcist who was saying that he could cure people of all sorts of diseases and yeah out in the sticks out in the suburbs of Buenos Aires where he was operating I got in touch with him and said I'd like to go and follow you around for the next couple of months and he was out in Argentina at the same time as me so the two of us were like okay let's go do this out in the middle of nowhere so we went and watched exorcisms and I got to even take part in one I was the guy ringing the bells the bells are supposed to stave off the devil so I was sort of kneel over this young woman who was 17 well that wasn't the first one the first one was Natalia who was like 30 odd and she was saying she was suffering with urges and pushes and intrusive thoughts and things that we might recognize as schizophrenia or obsessive compulsive disorder but for her because she was out in this place that lacked education and significant mental health awareness she thought it was a demon inside her so she gets down on the floor the priest starts or the exorcist starts shouting the power of God compels you the power of Christ compels you all this stuff over and over again but only 30 minutes later she's like going berserk limbs flailing everywhere I'm standing over her ringing bells and you can find this by the way you know if you're in England on iPlayer or but if not it's on YouTube just type exorcism Andrew Gold or whatever you'll find this film it's still out there on the BBC's page I'm standing over looking like a right dork just sort of waving these bells and she's just screaming and shouting things the thing is I don't believe in any of that stuff personally and I respect people's beliefs they're allowed to believe whatever they want I don't mind but I don't and I thought it's amazing what's happening to her mind here because it's this placebo effect and suggestion and she's basically being hypnotized so afterwards like a minute after the priest is like how are you feeling and he's like sweating because he's been like going around the room shouting and like a maniac she's like in a right state you know she looks like she's just given birth and she's like I'm cured I'm cured I know it and that happens two or three times when I attended exorcisms they were like straight away afterwards I'm cured thing is I went back a year later and they were like nah I've still got the same problems because they had very real mental health problems they can't just be cured from an exorcism but what's amazing what I learned there I didn't want to make a documentary of like oh I don't believe in this stuff and I was right and nothing helped right what was interesting to me was I went in thinking this is all a bunch of nonsense but then these people did get better they did get better and not just for a day I'm talking six to twelve months they felt better and that's amazing what your own expectations and the placebo can do to you just that big sort of one hour long powerful moment of an exorcism and these people felt amazing they were like four to twelve months so in that respect you could say it doesn't really matter if it's real if they're really demons or not because they got better the problem is long term they didn't get better and that's where we were but this exorcist he was selling things as well to these these are quite impoverished people these are people in an area where they can't afford much and he's selling them like a tiny bit of oil for like you know twenty dollars which for them is a lot of money like a cure breast cancer or whatever and it's like if they think that and they're not going to the doctor you know it's really really dangerous anyway over the weeks I hung around with him did his exorcisms with him but gradually I started asking a few questions about one of the young women that is like his assistant and he had exorcised her that's how he met her and it seemed like they lived together by this point and he's like 55 seemed like they lived together upstairs in the church and it was all just a bit dodgy so I started just asking a few people around the church hey what's the deal with this, what's going on you know and everyone was a bit like oh I don't know anyway word got back to him that I'd been asking about his relationship with this woman and I didn't know that he knew this and he suddenly goes Andrew can you just come back here this was when he had a big mass going on there were like 20,000 people in his church and outside around the streets all of them like frothing at the mouth falling over imagining that they're having like exorcisms it was like the most mad thing and they're all waiting for him to come out on the stage and he just goes like before coming out on the stage and doing his mass is at night midnight or something in the middle of nowhere outside Buenos Aires he just goes Andrew come back here a minute so I go back there with David my director and he goes this is just between me and Andrew you stay outside here my mate David's like well hang on what's let me in what you're talking about and he's like no you stay here and so David's outside holding the camera and then the guy the exorcist closes the door behind me and he's got five of his mates in there quite big burly blokes some of them I've heard this yeah go on it was a very scary situation for you oh my god and they had one of the guys got this big staff you know like Jafar and Aladdin he's like holding his staff and like they were very imposing and at that point I'm thinking you know what nobody knows where I am because I didn't do this with the BBC I made this by myself with David who's David is not an imposing fella he's a very skinny short guy and I've never been in a fight in my life right I'm very far from your background for example I've never done I wouldn't know military or anything you know I've had quite a sheltered life in that respect and I have a lot of respect for people like you who can do what you do I'm so relieved there are people in society who are willing to do that part but I'm scared out of my mind at this point and I'm in a little room he's closed the door there's a tiny little room and there's five of them and I'm like what's going on here no one knows where we are middle of nowhere outside Buenos Aires midnight he's got a baying crowd of like 20,000 people outside who if he says to them tear him limb from limb they'll do it really scary situation and he just comes up to me like he's in a movie and he goes what have you been telling everyone about my relationship with Paula which is the woman who he's exercised who's like 20 and he's hanging around with a lot and I was like oh nothing I've just been asking normal questions I don't know what you're talking about this is all getting picked up on my microphone which is on my collar at that point I'm not even thinking about that I'm just thinking I need to get the hell out of here so and David's trying to get in the door I can hear him outside and he's being restrained and this is like oh my god what's going on here and he starts screaming at me the exorcist right and he's making himself late for the mass outside but he's just screaming and he's going you've told everyone that I kiss her on the lips and I was like I did because I didn't say I never said anything like that what had happened is there's another journalist who's his best mate who like reports and all his demon stuff for the newspaper out there and he'd gotten jealous that me and David were like doing another journalism thing there so he'd gone and told the exorcist that I was asking why he kisses her on the mouth because he had probably seen that so I was like I didn't even know you did kiss her on the mouth I do you I don't know anything I didn't ask that he's screaming and screaming and eventually David sort of you know almost breaks the door in I was in there an hour being shouted at and I thought they're going to do away with me he's having a go at me about the Falklands he's going like you know English he took the Falklands as well and I was like I don't know what that's got to do with the price of eggs but then outside he's screaming more he screams at David and he's going I'm a bishop give me some respects and eventually like he's got people in his ear going like look just let them go sort of thing but it took a good hour until that point happened and we were able to get out but that took then another half hour of David and I because at this point like the crowd outside have gotten themselves so worked up all frothing at the mouth they're on the floor they're lying on top of each other in all the corridors of the church it's just bodies after bodies everywhere and David and I are trying to like climb on top of them to get outside hoping that at no point the priest just suddenly goes you know what all of you get those guys you know we're like just get out of here so we get out we're now in the crowd of thousands of them they're all like on the floor going berserk we're looking for like a taxi in the middle of nowhere at midnight which is like almost impossible and then David turns to me he goes mate you know what I didn't get the filming of you leaving the church and I was like right well we're just going to have to do without it and he goes no you have to go back in and we're going to have to film you leaving again and I was like mate no no way and eventually we did so he's now at this point the exorcist he's up on the stage and I can hear him shouting the devil has been in this house tonight and all stuff about us meanwhile he doesn't know right next to him like we're sort of creeping through this aisle in the church over bodies and stuff hoping no one realizes he's talking about us to go back to where we were so that David can then film me walking out again and it was the scariest thing for me and the most ridiculous thing ever anyway we got out and I was my legs turned to jelly which I thought it's not a very good you know flight off fright thing you know I can't run if it's a lion, legs were just shaking and we got home eventually it was only when we got home we thought you know what we've got a hell of a documentary here like the BBC might actually buy this because we never thought they actually would they just went and made it they might actually buy this because yeah we've got all the exorcism stuff but so do other people you've seen that on vice but nobody's got a priest going bonkers screaming at some English guys about the Falklands and threatening to kill them and all that stuff so you know and then we got pictures and stuff on his Facebook of him on these holidays with this young girl as well which we end the documentary with so it was like you know we know what you were doing mate you know I did picture you as the guy that's kicked off all the Falklands shit mate it was my fault hold you responsible for what was it 400 years of history yeah I know yes madness I know that feeling when it all goes wrong I've had it a few times in my life I got we got mugged me and my mate Simo in Istanbul by the Turkish mafia one time and that that actually did get violent got my head smashed against the wall ten times oh Jesus but it was that moment where there's two of you and there's ten of them and no matter how hard or military you think you are you they're just going to shove a knife in you and not even think about it yeah and there was another time in the South American jungle I got kidnapped albeit kidnapped by the same people I was getting a lift with if that makes sense in any way and this guy pulled out a blade on me in the middle of the jungle and the only lights were the car's headlights and yeah in those moments you it's like a switch isn't it things go from it was actually perfectly alright a second ago and now I think I am going to die I see adrenaline I can understand why some people do become adrenaline junkies because at the time it was horrible but looking back now I'm happy it happened and it's like oh that was quite a moment not often that you become that in touch with your animal self and you start to really like you say your eyes will look around the room almost like you're an animal that's how I felt I'm suddenly taking in things in a very different way I'm acting on instinct a little bit more and I suppose it's similar to that feeling if you go you know hang gliding or jump out a plane that's what you're getting in that adrenaline you're getting closer to your primal self maybe yes and talking about life and death is it coche insiata yeah well that was probably my favourite episode on my On the Edge with Andrew Gold podcast and unfortunately on the YouTube version I've only got five minutes of it like a little clip because he's a bit of an old fella now and it was difficult to do the whole video but the audio version of the podcast I know people here are mostly on YouTube and stuff but I'd encourage you to go and listen to that if it's one thing you listen just on the audio and that yeah he was one of the guys in short he was from Uruguay they were a rugby team and I'm sure a lot of people know the story there was the movie Alive and I know you're very familiar with it and you're interested in Nando he's one of the survivors my guy that I was in touch with was coche because he had a new book out about it and they were these guys who took a plane to Chile so across Argentina from Uruguay to Chile place I'm very familiar with of course because I lived in Argentina for seven years and visited Uruguay and Chile many times as well and yeah the plane hit a rock sticking out of the mountain and broke into two pieces at the top of a mountain with one piece slid back down the mountain and all the people there died because the back of the plane went into a very like a soupy thick bit of snow and they asphyxiated in the snow they were sort of stuck under the snow and they couldn't breathe down there everybody who was in that bottom part of the plane died that bottom part of the plane broke off one seat behind coche so he turned round there was no one behind him anymore his best mate was there suddenly gone plane goes down the mountain then the front part of it that is eventually crashes into the bottom the pilots immediately die squashed in there and quite a few people die pieces ripped forward and smashed together at the front of the plane I can't remember the exact amounts but I think 30 of them may be survived from the whole plane but a lot of them were things like broken legs and things like that which if untreated over the weeks they died of things like gangrene horrible horrible deaths thing was they had no food at all completely barren in the mountains except snow the other thing was these guys had never ever been in snow they were used to a very temperate Uruguay climate they're all wearing like you know shorts and t-shirts they don't even have a jacket most of them so that's insane to think about that because they're now caught in like minus 20 centigrade blizzards every single day minus 30 at night when a lot of them froze to death that first night when they arrived there quite a few of them did freeze to death Koche had to sort of cuddle up with another guy for body heat to just survive the night just about managed to survive it then over the next days they managed to sort of block out some of the windows at least so it wasn't as cold but it must have been freezing I mean to think of that just in your t-shirt for months and blizzards and then they had to sort of think okay what are we going to do no food no water you can eat the snow of course in your mouth from the freezing cold of the snow so they had to put snow in wine bottles they had which is very Uruguayan or Argentine to have the wine bottles and all that they put snow in the wine bottles and put it out in the sun and it took hours and hours and they got a couple of drops of water a day from that you know which they had to share around and as for food after a few days they had to think you know what do we have what can we do all they had they were the dead bodies of their friends and family members and they had a big talk about it whether it was right, whether it was wrong in this talk a lot of them said if I die next you can have my body that kind of thing conversations, discussions that are just impossible to even imagine for most of us and yeah they were there eating each other's bodies they couldn't even cook them they didn't like them or anything like that so heating the bodies would reduce the amount of meat very slightly so they ate frozen parts of each other's bodies it's really quite awful and they were there about three months and I think about 17 of them survived at the end everybody had left them for dead nobody thought that they could have survived that long it's very emotional talking to Kotchi about that a bit about his fiance and his mum finding out he was alive those parts of they're always the really emotional bits I found myself choking up while editing that but he's a lovely man and he's one of the few people on this earth who knows what human meat tastes like I didn't ask him that because I thought that would be a bit much to ask an old man who's given up his time for me but in terms of stories of human survival I think that's probably the most fascinating one bar none and I'm so lucky I got to talk to him and have him on my podcast because it was a real honour Yes it's a story quite sort of I don't know what the expression is true to my heart because I flew that route I've been in Uruguay and I've sort of been to the museums and I heard about this story and I've flown over the Andes into Chile on that route literally going over the all the places on route that are mentioned in the book and the film Oh wow amazing Yeah I was massively struck by Nando Parado's story namely that he woke up from a coma after say three days to find out that while he'd been in a coma his mother had died and he awoke to find that his sister had been alive but now or been conscious now she slipped into a coma and he had to watch her die Yeah and then after being up on that mountain or up in the mountain range for I don't know what was it the best part of a month or something Yeah three months Oh no it was 72 days I think so two and a half months Yeah he just turned around to his crew and said right I'm going to walk out of here and of course they said you're crazy I mean they had no equipment no snowshoes, no skis, no nothing some of this snow is meters deep literally and he said no I'm going to walk out of here and the last thing he said I get really emotional when I think about this is as he set off he said oh you know if you need to eat my mum and my sister you've got my permission just unbelievable and there were three of them that set off one of them they quickly realised he wasn't up to the challenge so they made some excuse to send him back but the two of them I forget the other gentlemen's name they walked out of there they walked for days through this thick snow heading west I'm guessing towards Chile they had rugby socks because they were obviously a rugby team they had rugby socks full of meat to keep them going they were sleeping in a sleeping bag that they made out of the the insulation from the fuselage of the plane and yeah they finally they got to a river and on the other side of the river were some gauchos so some cowboys and they threw a message across that they'd taped to a rock or tied to a rock and it said we come from the mountains can you help and these gauchos were really suspicious because there was some kind of rivalry in that area some rebel action or something and they didn't know if these were the bad guys but lo and behold the next day they a helicopter turned up to pick them up and what was moving again was one of the kids' fathers just refused to give up on them even after three months he said no my son's still alive and he kept the rescue he kept everything going you know it just refused to accept that his son was dead could you and his son survived so could you imagine those two being reunited it's just beyond anything we can conceive isn't it yeah well you just hope this will never happen to most people I've got to get a plane in a week to Argentina actually going back off there and yeah it's always crossing my mind I sometimes have a nightmare where I'm just placed in the middle of the ocean somewhere like completely in the middle and I'm just like looking around me and they had to go through it that is why again I had someone on my podcast called Paul Bloom who was a former Yale professor who's now at Toronto along with like Jordan Peterson there he talks about why we sort of enjoy suffering we like to suffer in some ways for example we like a really hot bath we like really spicy food that kind of suffering as long as we know we're safe it's okay and for the same reason we like horror films and part of why we like horror films is because the brain he believes Paul Bloom believes is running like a practice software in our minds and it's going watch this horror film watch this zombie apocalypse because it's giving you training to what to do if you're in that situation so that's why that story has just kept our attention for so many years because it is the ultimate example not only it's just something extraordinary and horrible and awful but also something where we all look at it and it's going you know thank god that's not me and how did they survive? Might I have survived and you're sort of almost practising bare survival as you watch it so and it's uplifting at the end apart from of course for all the people who died but it's uplifting that feeling that some people against all the odds survived so yeah really beautiful story and I'm really proud of that podcast episode have you have you had any awkward guests hmm yeah I've had probably one one who was just a bit awkward there's also been like one was a bit awkward and I wouldn't want to say their name because it's not fair to them no no no I'm picturing my awkward guest in my mind and I've never said their name but go on you say yours well I had a guest and there's this thing right old school people that are used to doing TV interviews and the traditional media when they come to a podcast they've got this preconceived idea in the head of what it's going to be they think it's an interview essentially and they expect you to have like done all your research like you've read all their books you've got a whole team like you know on their history and of course like you and I'm one guy I've got a family I've got loads and loads of work to do every day I used to try and read my guest books and it got to the point where I got 50 books on my shelf now hmm like it's just ludicrous to expect that I can read all of my guest books right what did they say they were like you didn't read my book mate well no it wasn't like that it was that they'd obviously taken a battering in the media over the years because something they did was deemed like really bad basically that they'd left me who was it oh I can't I'm not going to say mate I can't but they basically they were accused of leaving people to die okay and here's the thing I wasn't really like familiar with that I had some vague thing about but I'm not here to get people on my podcast to humiliate them or dig the dirt I just don't care about that and what happened is towards the end of the podcast I I mentioned someone that had died on in this person's life we can say they're an adventurer right and it triggered them and I think they thought I was trying to like dish the dirt on them and it wasn't like you were trying to get at him yeah it wasn't that it was just that when I done the research that I had done because obviously we do as much research as time allows us one of the things I saw on the internet is that someone had died on one of their expeditions and I towards the end of the podcast so the person said yeah when we got to this bit it was quite you know quite amazing blah blah blah blah and I said yeah was it after that bit that so and so died I just said it like that Andrew as you would if you're interested in someone's story and I didn't realise that this person dying was another thing that had caused this person loads of to see in their life and it was almost like they turned on me in the podcast and it was just it was that weird weird moment and of course the beauty of it is you can edit that out well maybe it would have gotten more hits I don't want that it probably would but it would have embarrassed them yeah I think I think it would have been I mean they literally went like a bit psycho into the camera no you don't want to go there you know I'm like fucking dude chill the fuck out I don't really give a shit to be honest I just was interested in your story you know well it happens man it's not your fault it just happens but my thing was more like there was a woman who was quite I think quite depressed maybe and she was dealing with a lot of stuff and she was just a bit off the whole way through and then afterwards she kept saying like how she it was really bad she wished I'd told her that it was going to be a video as well and I was just like oh sorry I thought I did and she was like mm-hmm you didn't you know I did and she then said oh I was so bad and stuff like that and I was like no you were brilliant and then she was like can you stop patronising me weren't brilliant then like what do you want I'm just trying to be nice but she was going through her own stuff you know yeah we had one situation again I won't say the name but the guess was very honest that during the lockdown they've been drinking more right well most people I know have had drug or alcohol problems there's one time in my life I didn't know anyone that didn't didn't take drugs or alcohol right anyone who lives the 90s and lived the sort of life we'll just know what I mean and lots of us have run into challenges with it I'm not going to say problems I'm going to say challenges because all of life is experiences and it's what you do with those experiences that count and if you don't have harsh experiences you have nothing with which to learn from to develop yourself as a human being you have nothing to go you know it's why people join elite military forces it's why people jump out of aeroplanes it's why people climb mountains without supplementary oxygen it's that in itself is a massive experience it's just some of us also did stuff through messing around with substances and this particular get so what I'm trying to say Andrew is I welcome any honest conversation about that when I was young none of that was talked about horrible names were assigned to people that had challenges with addiction and still are by by many people today lots of stigmatizing kind of stuff going on and as such what this does is it drives people who've got mental health problems such as addiction it drives them underground it means that they are hesitant to come and talk about it because they think they're not so bright people are not so educated people they're going to judge them by it right whereas most people know actually most people are actually quite nice and they care for you and the ones that don't they're the ones that have got issues in their life it's not about you it's about they've got issues in their life and they're projecting them on to you with names or whatever and so in this conversation it came out that the person had been drinking a lot during lockdown and it was a great honest conversation to have because they were a celebrity and and well how many people realised they had a drinking problem during lockdown I'm guessing in this country hundreds of thousands if not an even higher figure and it was just upsetting that what happened is is the mainstream media picked up on this podcast and what my ideal scenario Andrew would have been for my guests to go yeah well that's the mainstream media their job is to destroy people's lives we don't buy into that whole shit and we don't buy their crappy newspapers yeah just think how many people learned from the chat I had with Chris and we followed it up by you know we're giving some words of advice and this kind of stuff but of course like I say when you get people that have been schooled in the traditional methods of media so BBC interview very structured very rigid interview in the paper they're very affected by that and what can I say it was just a shame that the wonderful conversation we had about a very difficult subject that probably helped an enormous amount of people that my guests thought it was something to be ashamed of that's a real shame and I felt bad for the guests because it was one of those ones where we could have edited it out I could have kind of no they didn't ask me to which wasn't the point it was more that when you get into these conversations you can fall into that false sense of security I'm chatting to you now we're going to come on to this by the way but what if I told you one of my deep dark secrets because you're a good guy you know I like you and I go a bit step too far and the next thing I know well then I think that's the responsibility of the person unfortunately I don't think that's you at all they said it and you're right it could be because you're a good interviewer there's something nice about you and because of that people reveal stuff to you that's what makes you a good journalist but at the end of the day it sounds like you're very willing to take that out and if they don't do that they have no right to be annoyed at you not in the slightest they know it's recorded I get it though I'm old now I get all of life I know why everyone reacts in the way that they do doesn't mean they're right though but I get that when you're ego driven which celebrities are unfortunately they're not spiritually enlightened spiritually enlightened would go press write what you like about me it's literally not going to affect me my life or what I do tomorrow because it's irrelevant and I take my power from a much higher source well they say it's not Chris's fault the science of secrets this is a book you've got coming out have you finished writing it yet? haven't even started but I'm already talking about it all the time I've actually got a meeting later today with the publisher but it's a big publisher it doesn't have a name yet so I call it the science of secrets we haven't thought of the name but I'm so excited that I've actually got an offer from a publisher it might not even happen hopefully it is it's basically since I started doing the podcast I talked before about parasocial interaction this concept there people trust you think of you as a friend and because of that they often reveal their secrets to you that's the mark of a good journalist there's something about them you want to reveal your secrets to them so I started getting some stuff one person in particular got in touch and told me that they had killed someone and this was a woman who told me that she once killed a guy with her hands she told me all about it and it all checks out and I was just like wow what an amazing story, awful, horrible, weird but also why me why did you tell me what was it about something I had done or said that made you want to get in touch and tell me this who else gets told secrets all the time what kinds of people another got in touch and I was on Instagram a woman to tell me that she was in her 60s marriage wasn't going very well and she had been exchanging naked photos with a 30 year old singer who in my mind was just trying to get money out of her and so all these different worlds kept opening up to me for no reason apparently so that got me really interested in secrets that's how I start the book with these I go into the details of some of the stories these people tell me then I was really interested in like what do people do at home there's so much shame about certain things that we do let's say sexually for example or even just like nose picking nose picking is a fun one because it's not as like sex or taboo like that but it is something that if you're seen doing in public you'll get so much disgust from people people will be revolved you'll be kicked out of society because it's such a disgusting thing to be seen to be doing in society so I did some of these you don't want to get caught eating it that's what I'd say that's particularly that's too far I put them behind my ear and I wait till no definitely wait till no one's looking exactly well that's the thing and then I did some surveys I got some of my listeners a few hundreds to do some surveys do you pick your nose a lot well almost all of them do so much shame I'm not suggesting that I want to have a society where everybody's out picking their nose in public but I think it's an example of the ways that we shame people around us for doing what we all do can I just add something sorry to interrupt but look at the primates in the jungle and the monkeys what they do pick the nose and eat it all day long don't they look at a child what's a child do they pick it and they look around when they think then quite clearly it's a human exactly it's something about I don't know if it's getting nutrients in because I'd imagine that you're snob probably I think snob is probably a lot of toxins coming out the body so it's probably not a good idea to eat it but also dust and stuff coming into the body so maybe there's nutrients in that I don't know we'd need a scientist for that but the point being like let's not be so ashamed of a lot of the things we do and there's talk about female masturbation as well it's sort of a known thing that men do it nearly every day and that's what my survey showed but I didn't realise how often women do according to my survey anyway it was often including ones in relationships which I think a lot of boyfriends will be very surprised you know still quite a few days a week or at least a few times a month and why is that more taboo for women you know I very rarely do women I'm not that lucky you doing women I'm talking about them doing themselves yeah but you know it's those kinds of things there's a lot of taboo around women masturbating right whereas men it's like it's a joke and we're all having a laugh why is that so I'm looking at those kind of secrets and like what the difference between secrecy and privacy is what the difference between secrecy and deception is right there's all these different overlapping themes and I look at who we reveal stuff to not polite people for example polite people are not who we want to reveal stuff to and I think the reason for that is if you look at history you look at like the Nazis you look at this the SS they were very polite and they were all about sticking to rigid forms of societal politeness and that meant dobbling on your neighbour right so you can't always trust people who are polite we tend to trust people who are a little bit more subversive a little bit controversial and a bit unhinged you know because you think they'd go out on a limb to protect me in a way that a polite person might just sort of dobb you in so that kind of stuff really interested me and then I wanted to know what happens if you keep secrets what happens to you and each of us keeps on average 13 secrets at any one time and and I think it's like 97 percent of us keep at least one secret so we always keep even if you don't think you are if you really think about it you are and the more secrets you keep the worse it is for your mental and then physical health it can lead to things like ulcers there's even some evidence it can lead to things like cancer if you're keeping a lot of secrets it's the stress and the rumination in your mind about the secret so I thought can I find the worst possible secrets to keep and studies suggest the worst secrets you can keep would be something involving your identity so something so intrinsic to you and something that if revealed would lead to you being ostracized so if you think back to like Turin Alan Turin sorry he he was having to keep an identity secret that he was gay and if it were revealed it would mean very bad things for him that must have been outrageously stressful incredibly difficult and probably you know that might have led what that did lead ultimately to his suicide right and some people say it wasn't suicide um and also the chemical castration he was going through was awful but then nowadays in our society okay gay is mostly accepted and as it should be so so what is the worst secret you can keep well it's those people who I won't name on YouTube who have you know predilections a predilection towards young people and so they are the people who are keeping something about their identity an awful horrible thing secret in the knowledge that if that were to come out they would be killed ostracized put in prison beaten up by you know I'm not talking about the ones who offend I'm talking about ones who keep it their whole lives inside they never act on it but they're living with a very difficult secret whether or not you feel sorry for them is a very very different thing you don't have you know to tell people to feel sorry for those people but what I do know is that they will be going through an extraordinary amount of stress um so I went and met some and I wanted to do something a bit different to the normal by the way you can find episode six of my podcast on the edge with Andrew Gold I do have an interview with one of these guys he's an 18 year old head boy of his school or class president of his school and he has those feelings and we talk about it and I think that's unusual on YouTube because usually people don't want to have that because of the advertising and stuff like that I didn't get his face it's just audio but it was fascinating to sit and talk to him and see what kind of cognitive biases he has because he does have many and I tried to sort of debate with him about that could you give us an example of one of his cognitive biases well he told me that he would never offend and he would never touch those because he knows it's not right he knows it's bad to do but he needs to be around children and as the head boy of his school he always goes to these after school classes to be around them and he loves just hanging out with them and he said if I were made to not be with them I'd be more likely to offend and I said well hang on if you're not around them and he said no you don't get it I have to be near them that stops me offending and I was like this is a cognitive bias and I was saying can you see this is a cognitive bias of yours because you want to be around them so you're telling yourself it's better for everyone if you're around them it's better for everyone really if you are never around them it's not right that parents are sending their kids somewhere and that you're getting some attraction to them and he wouldn't have it and he seemed like he was trying to do the right thing trying to be a nice guy he said I know it's the worst thing that can happen to a kid so I would never do that to them I love them so much I would never hurt them and all this stuff and I was saying I think you need to look at yourself and go like time to put some distance between them and he was just going no that will make me more likely to offend so that's a cognitive bias that I couldn't shake of his but for the book I went and met a woman because I wanted to do something different a 25 year old woman very very rare and even more taboo because we like to associate them with the maternal love rightly or wrongly I don't know if that's fair but that's how we associate them so for her to come out if she were to ever tell anybody about her life I went and met her in a tiny village in Germany somewhere spent the day with her just talking to her about it again she said I've never ever offended never would but I have these inclinations and I can't have an adult relationship which I found quite sad and creepy and revolting but also your mind just goes it was a very scary surreal moment hanging out with her but yeah I met all these people I met a therapy I went to a therapy clinic in Germany because I was living in Berlin for a while and they've got the world's only therapy clinic that never reports these people to authorities and that's really controversial because on the one side it works because it means that these people actually go to get therapy before they offend it stops offended isn't that fantastic the other hand is it means doctors are sitting with these people knowing what they might be capable of and saying okay well goodbye come back next time go back onto the streets and potentially to offend again you said they haven't offended oh right you're right there are ones generally haven't offended but even if they have I think the therapy is not able to report them yeah it's a whole it's a whatever the expression is bag of worms or something isn't it the whole can of worms because I mean if you have someone that has let's just call it the feelings right they know that it's not right and moreover if they carry them out that they are the word is defiling you're defiling a young person aren't you you know their files in their brain you are corrupting by telling them that this is normal behavior right so if a person has the feelings but they never would carry them is it wrong if I say I wouldn't give a shit that's I'm sure there's fucking loads of people like that it's a rich tapestry of life isn't it I think most people share your view when you sit and talk to them the problem is there are some people who don't and they're very angry and they put a lot of youtube comments and sometimes you wonder if it's a little bit of the lady doth protest too much or whatever that thing of for many many years there's a lot of religious people who hated gay people and often were outed themselves as being gay and I wonder a lot of the hunters of these people have turned out to be these people themselves that's not the case for all of them that's not me suggesting that anybody who disagrees with what you've just said which I agree with which is that as long as they don't offend I actually feel a bit sorry for them because the thing is there's fuck all we can do about I mean if someone's if for whatever reason the product of that person's life has produced an adult with these feet there's nothing you or I can do about I mean what we're going to do is lock up every single there's always more there's always more coming out because I saw Louis C.K. do a skit about this recently he's got a new tour of the comedian he said exactly what you said it's not like okay now we've got them all and that's it because there are always more being produced so the only thing you can do that there's German therapies trying to do is say okay there's nothing we can do about that let's try and get them in for therapy so that they understand how bad it is to offend and how much it does with a child's life sorry just to be clear for people at home we might be we're not defending crimes against people here we're saying that if today one of those armed security vans drives by me you know the ones that take the money to the bank if I see one and briefly in my mind I think whoa imagine if I robbed it imagine if I'm like right give us the money and then next thing I'm sat at home and I've got these bags upon bags of I'm not going to do that does it mean I'd do it if I could get away with it yeah I mean not now in my life because I'm old and I've learned by the air of my ways and I've learned that money wouldn't make me happy but but does that mean that no one's ever allowed to have that thought and they've all got to go to prison well that would be ridiculous you'd have to lock the whole country up because I'm sure everyone has you know some thought about imagine when someone's rude to you and you just want to like bloody want to kill them we don't punish people for their thoughts we don't punish people you just said you wanted to kill him I mean you don't put people in prison for that no so it's a weird one yeah there are fantasies as well there are some women who have fantasies about being raped that is very rarely the case that they actually want to be the reason the fantasy is okay is because they're actually in control of it in their fantasy in real life it's one of the worst things maybe the worst thing that can ever happen to a woman there are plenty of fantasies that most people have and that's partly what this book I'm going to write is about that we do have horrible fantasies and I think we're only going to give ourselves a lot of guilt if we try to want ourselves to have perfect fantasies because we can't control them so it might not be I think it's only 1% of the population have what we were talking about before with the children stuff so that's very small but the other 99% of us it's not like we don't have weird fantasies even if it's stuff you've seen the stuff that's available on those websites I've seen weird stuff from cartoons it doesn't mean you want those things to actually happen you don't really want to go to bed with Fred Flintstone so we mustn't punish people for their thoughts and fantasies or make them feel too much guilt about it obviously that 1% I'm talking about the ones who are attracted to children that is really, really complicated and scary topic because you don't want to leave even if it is just fantasies I still don't like the idea of them fantasizing about my kids do you know what I mean so yes it's it kind of is but again it's just that thing nothing we could do about it sure well you can prevent them from babysitting your children if you knew about it because I went and met one guy who was babysitting children and I was like and I arrived and he had the kids with him and I went what are you doing and he goes oh well I babysit these kids I go you're a this word I said you're that you know I'm not going to do anything I'm like yeah but you shouldn't be babysitting these children where's the mum I went and met the mum I said do you know about this she goes yeah but I trust him I'm like he's taking your kids swimming he's getting off on it and she's like yeah but they don't know and he's not doing anything to them it was to me that's bonkers so that's why I draw the line with the fantasies whatever nah I wouldn't let my kids be babysat by this guy yeah it's I'm just playing devil's advocate here but if you loved custard pies but you understand that you're supposed to pay for them does that mean you're never allowed to work in a custard pie shop okay it's a very silly example I know the pies don't have if you're an alcoholic I wouldn't suggest you work behind a bar well I've done that and yeah that was an interesting part of my life you see you see what I mean that's a more serious so the custard pie ones I get but when it's more serious I think like the alcohol one I would say don't work behind a bar so if you have those inclinations towards children you shouldn't be babysitting them that's my view yeah I yeah it's one of those ones isn't it where I don't think anything's ever going to be clean cut there there's too many there's so many inputs here there's so much there's so much it fascinates me so much yeah community to say one thing fits everything is yeah it's a funny one I mean for example if I love women and maybe I fancy your girlfriend does that mean you wouldn't have me in your house for dinner even though you know let's say Chris is a good guy he's never going to do anything I wouldn't mind having you for dinner but let's say in this hypothetical example maybe I would feel awkward if I knew you fancied her about you going out for dinner just with her right and that's still different because she's got more ability to say no still and I would expect her to say no whereas if it's a child they don't know to say no they don't understand that's why we've been hiding it from you Andrew yeah no it's great that you're brave enough to look into these areas because just charging everyone with calling everyone names and then wanting to hang everyone that's just never going to help anything is it we've got we need to it makes things worse and that's one of the things the doctors at this German clinic said to me they said one of the main there's three risk factors for these people one is being around children that's what that's what we're saying about this guy he was saying he should be around them I know for a fact that the doctors have said no you shouldn't but that's a main risk factor that will make you offend you're around them stop it second is being on drugs or alcohol because you lose your inhibitions right you don't stop thinking about what's right for the kid and you just do what you want to do the third one is ostracization if you're ostrac if you feel and this is true of any walk of life if you feel like you're being excluded that people have given up on you and that people think you're a monster you have less desire less motivation to do what's right by society so you take a somebody who did you know who murdered or something or like that and he wants to rehabilitate or whatever but everyone's going you're a monster eventually he's just going to go well screw it you think I'm a monster I'm a monster then I don't need to get better I'm just going to do the crime again same thing goes for these guys if they're told like hey we want you to be better we want you to go to therapy we're going to help you we want you to be a decent member of our society you're a human being who has this terrible affliction and we're going to stop you know we're going to teach you the ways they'll be like okay I'm not all of them of course but some of them will be like okay I'm on board if you just say to them outside the clinic that I'm talking about there's graffiti saying hang the these people you know they're walking past that when they go to therapy it's not going to help and it might make the person who wrote the graffiti feel good but it's not going to make someone else it could be there you know if that guy goes you know what screw it I've seen the graffiti I feel really bad now I am going to offend now well that person who's done the graffiti is partially responsible for what might happen to a kid now I don't really mean they're that responsible for it I just mean it doesn't help like having a go just go and basically what we're saying is I'm having a go at them because I'm not one of them everyone look I'm not one of them I'm saying you're bastards you're this you're that this comes back to the virtue signalling again isn't it yeah it's like the prison you know I've robbed old ladies houses and stolen their their late husbands possessions all that they had to remember but at least I don't you know at least I haven't done it yeah yeah exactly it's that I'm above on the food chain because I haven't done that thing we I think this clinic has said that they really do believe like look it's an awful thing but you gotta we gotta get them into therapy because it could be your kids they're after right let's get them into therapy it's the only thing that we can do so they realize how awful it is and I met so many people who had been abused as children and like it's the worst and there'll be people watching this who have been through it and they'll know and they might be triggered by hearing it and I respect that and understand that but it's the worst thing that can happen it's the worst thing that can happen to a kid so we've got to do something about it we can't just sit here and just keep going oh they're bad people and make ourselves feel good we we also need to as a society be asking what is creating this you know what is creating this imbalance oh well that's another hour isn't it we could yeah let's not go there now but but I mean it I mean it seems quite obvious I would say that if you go to public school ie private school or boarding school and these these lads are having these you know their first experience is a very very young age I'm not saying everybody now of course I'm not but it does seem that when you look at our politicians many of whom went to these kind of schools and then you see some of the the deviancy that they're involved in that these are all questions we need to be asking you know what what what is creating unhealthy unhealthy adults there does seem to be a correlation between people who had very bad and I'm saying seems because there's just not been enough work and studies done on these people because they're so executive they don't want to come forward and do a study it's very hard but just from my own anecdotal experience most of these people had awful childhoods whether that be being in a boarding school where something happened to them as a kid so it's a cycle like that but also it can just be I mean look at Michael Jackson and again like I don't know exactly what happened there but I do know he had an awful childhood where he was beaten and attacked and all that kind of thing and there does seem to be some suggestion that you can sometimes get your sexuality stuck at the age at which you were abused or what I've heard that and also Andrew I think there's areas of our mind that we still haven't got our heads around and by that I mean I think as humans we can have impulses, urges and feelings in a moment that oh my god we bloody would hide that from the rest of the world because it's just a very dark side of the human personality I mean the fact that someone can go out in cold blood and murder someone that's a fascinating area just in itself and yes just as we finish off mate I just wanted to go back to this parasocial interaction what do you call it in? interaction is this when you get your talk show host and he's saying ok folks so today in New York we have seen this person saying this now I don't know about you when what they're really saying is I know exactly what you think because I know the demographic I'm dealing with and how easily brainwashed you've all been by by TV all your life I don't know about you but I would say this guy's fucking joker is it that kind of conversation it's a one sided conversation the other thing is when people say so the question is or so what people are and it's like hang on no one's asked that you've hypothetically raised a question and then you're answering it yeah it's constantly you're right it's constantly acting out as though there were two ways so the question is because there's no second person actually asking the question they're doing both sides of the conversation in a sense it's acting out it's acting out authenticity it's saying I'm having an authentic relationship with you the viewer and you can look right into the camera lens I'm having an authentic relationship with you you are my friend but it's only ever one way it does leave the other person though always wanting a bit more and always wanting to reveal secrets to that person to the talk show host and to subscribe to their stuff and be their friend and that kind of thing yeah but also everyone's been I think in life everyone's been traumatized some of us more than others it's childhood stuff that really wasn't very you know very pleasant but I think everybody by nature of the society we live in and that we're all controlled by I I'm not going to say the word because I keep getting demonetized but well actually we've said it a lot already but I think the psychopathic trillionaires have got a lot to answer for I actually do think they sit around a table and plan all this you know this shit and I think that their MO is to destroy the individual from birth like literally to cut them off from any form of spirituality give them like false religion stuff that is just a what's that word like a confusion takes them all through the woods and around the houses I think the media is used to just destroy all people's self confidence with these beauty magazines and these men's magazines and all this kind of stuff and and so when you're talking to camera everyone you're talking to to a degree has been through this process like guys I don't know about you these beauty magazines like as if all guys look like that what's wrong with being you know a bit tubby around the middle right suddenly everyone can relate to that can't they yeah everyone's good people to relate I agree listen I've got a head off in a minute because otherwise I won't be able to get lunch Andrew no worries I'm going to love you and leave you brother you've been absolutely brilliant fascinating chat let's do this again yeah as soon as possible I've loved it mate it's been so nice thank you and before we go we're just going to say folks if you can get onto Andrew's podcast on the edge oh yeah on the edge with Andrew Gold on YouTube or Spotify or Apple and all that stuff hey you sound like the radio DJ then hey yeah baby let's hit it Andrew don't stay online unless there's anything you wanted to do I do want to ask you one thing once we stop recording okay in that case massive thanks again Andrew I really enjoyed this chat I think it's been really productive to our friends at home big love to you all please look after yourselves if you can like and make sure you're subscribed because YouTube I don't know why they unscribe unsubscribe so many people from my channel unsubscribe into the channel sometimes the truth is a bit close to the whatever it's supposed to be close to should we subscribe to each other's channels Chris yes I'm subscribing to you now and there you go we'll see you all soon see you soon