Hello Psych2Go viewers, our guest for today's livestream is Jonathan Decker. Jonathan is a licensed marriage and family therapist with a master's degree in family therapy and a bachelor's in psychology. He is the clinical director of the Trauma Healing Clinic Mended Light, and he is the founder and host of two amazing YouTube channels, Cinema Therapy and Mended Light. Welcome Jonathan, thank you so much for joining us today. Hello, and thank you for having me. Sorry, if you hear it, it sounds like my computer is dying. It's a driver issue, but we're good. It goes like for about 30 seconds when we start and then we're fine. See, now it's all in peace. No problem, you're good. I can't even hear it anymore. OK, good. That's good. So hello, thanks for having me today. Of course, I love your channel. I'm a big fan of both. They're amazing. And I just love how you combine media and movies with mental health. I think that's so interesting and unique. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it's a I have this I have this intense love of cinema that wouldn't leave. You know, I decided to become a therapist instead of a filmmaker or an actor. And so I thought, well, I can leave this behind. And it just was there gnawing at me all the time. And I thought, what am I supposed to do with this? And my wife likes to say you have your passions for a reason, right? That if there's something inside you that won't leave you alone, then it's meant to it's meant to go out into the world or it's meant for you to create it just for yourself. But it can't just stay inside and not you got to do something with it. So this is what we did. I love that because it's very relatable. Other people feel like maybe they have to give up a hobby or something because of their career where you really don't have to. You can find ways of like incorporating it all. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. So for starters, can you tell us what inspired inspired you to become a mental health content creator and a little bit about your background? Yeah, so I was born and raised in Arizona and had a very nurturing, empathetic mother. I mean, I have a very kindhearted father, but my empathy, my compassion, the the skills that I put to use in therapy are very much her. She didn't have a degree in counseling, but she was always the person that people called for a listening ear for good advice. And she was just naturally gifted at connecting with people and helping them to resolve their problems or helping them to feel seen and loved and heard. And I think I inherited that from her. But in high school, I, you know, made movies with my friends. And when I got to college, I thought, OK, do I go into film or do I go into therapy? And I decided to go into therapy. And so how did I start making content where I blend the two? It really came down to I used to use movie clips in presentations and I use movie clips in courses that I would teach in the community relationship courses. There's a course called How to Avoid Falling in Love with a Jerk based on the book, based on the book by the same name. I was a certified facilitator of that. But I would pepper it with clips from the office or, you know, clips from Star Wars or all sorts of stuff to drive home the points. And I saw really clearly that mental health constructs and theories and modalities, the language of academia, in my opinion, kind of suffocates the heart and soul of psychology. And what I mean by that is there's how and I don't mean to disparage academia, obviously, the research that people do helps millions of people. But I don't know your average person who is going to pick up a journal, an academic journal and really dig into it and and get what they need out of it. There has to be some sort of translation mechanism between academia and the mainstream. And when I was using movie clips to teach these concepts, I realized that that makes the abstract more concrete. People can see what it looks like, right? If they can see characters going through it, it's the reason why we connect so much to stories. It's the reason why we learn so much from the journeys of these characters is because we want to vicariously experience something that is healing for us or that is helpful for us. The issue with movies, of course, is that even when they get it right, they take something that takes years and condense it down to two hours. And so we have to be realistic about what the journey actually looks like. But that that's the power of it. And I feel like my talent and I don't say this with any sort of boasting because I think we all have talents and gifts and we all have weaknesses. And I've been to so many academic conferences where I thought. I could never come up with this level of research, this level of intricacy, this level of of quality, but I could probably present it better because I have a background in standup comedy, right? And so and so and so when it comes to taking this material and having it reach people in a way that lands, that that's kind of where this all came together. And Alan, who if you watch Cinema Therapy, he's my co-host, he's my best friend.  He had, I knew I couldn't pull off a show because we're looking at creating basically a half an hour television show every week. But I knew he had the talent and he had the skills and he had the know-how from his years in the film industry to produce this thing. And I also knew he would be just we were good on camera together. And so that's where all this kind of came together. That's amazing because what you do is educational, but it's relatable. Like you make it in a way that's relatable and people can connect with it instead of it being like academic jargon kind of. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's that's the idea is we're trying to entertain people into learning something. Oh, my gosh, that's my wife, Alicia. She calls it edutainment, right? That's that's our brand of what we're doing is edutainment. And I grew up with Bill Nye, the science guy. You know, I grew up with these other figures, Mr. Rogers, these people that you learn things, but you didn't it didn't feel like learning. And that's the thing is learning should be exciting. It should be emotionally involving. It should be applicable in day to day life. And sometimes in our in our quest to.  And so we're trying to put life back into it. I can relate to that being in grad school. Yeah, yeah. So thank you for that. So tell me, tell me really fast. What are you studying? A public administration. Oh, cool. And public policy. OK, there's a lot of good work that needs to be done there. Exactly. To make a major difference. Where are you studying? USC. Nice. OK. Yeah, I've been to USC campus before. And that's really nice. It's super nice. Yeah. And as I as our cause there, because the Gottmans were presenting. And yeah, no, I like to see a lot very cool. So awesome. Yeah. So let's do this thing. What do you got? Let's do this. OK, first starters, based on your expertise as a therapist, how do you define a toxic relationship in general? I think what makes we have to be careful because that word is thrown around so much now that anytime someone loses their temper or acts selfish for a time or is petty, we may be quick to label that relationship toxic. But if that's the case, all relationships are toxic and that's we're human. And I think the issue is speaking of that class, how to avoid falling in love with a jerk.  It's it's consistency and degree, right? OK. And so a relationship to me is toxic. Not if it has not if it has ugly moments, but one, how consistent are things miserable? And prohibitive to growth and prohibitive to to what's the word I'm looking for? Self actualization and what makes a relationship toxic is do I feel we get into relationships to feel safe, respected and loved? And what happens if a relationship over a prolonged period of time we don't feel safe, respected and loved? And not only that, but there are people in the relationship who are not showing accountability or humility or willingness to change and effort to change. Right. And so a healthy I think we can say what's toxic by talking about what's not toxic. What's not toxic is a relationship where I feel supported in my dreams. What's not toxic is a relationship where I feel like I'm seen and understood and desired for who I am. What's not toxic is finding that sweet spot between I'm accepted for who I am, but I'm growing into a better version of me. Right. Oh, yeah. Because there's a difference between I am who I am, my tastes, my desires, my preferences, my interests. They are what they are, and I'll always be this person. But I can within that become the better version. And someone trying to say who you are doesn't work. Who you are needs to change on a fundamental level. Right. There's big difference. And I would say the second one is indicative of a toxic relationship. A toxic relationship looks like gaslighting. It looks like blame shifting, lies and manipulation. And a toxic relationship looks like. It's not just accountability. We need accountability, but we also need effort. And look, I've seen toxic relationships turn into healthy relationships. That's why I became a couples therapist. Right. I've seen that happen. I've had a hand in that happening. The hard part about that is people see toxic relationships turning into healthy relationships, so they stay in their toxic relationship and think, if I just hold on a little longer. And what I would say is you need to see sincere humility and accountability and effort to change if you're even going to consider staying. And then my last part of this multi-layered answer to your question is it's not it's consistency and it's degree because what I tell people the reason people stay in toxic relationships is because of the good things and the good times. The fact is very few people are all out monsters. Most people want to feel safe, loved and respected and they may go about it in maladaptive ways or they may have learned to be selfish or they may have learned to be hurtful. But we stay because in a toxic relationship, a toxic partner sometimes is sweet, sometimes is kind, sometimes is caring. And for some that's a deliberate manipulation and for others it is sincere. They just don't have their demons under control, right? And so what I tell people is it's not what they're like at their best, it's what they're like at their worst. Wow. Yeah, because we stay because of what they're like at their best, but and so that's, and that's the other question, like what are they like at their worst? Cause... Yeah. Listen, I've made a lot of mistakes in my marriage. There's something on our Mended Light channel, my wife and I are, we've got a new video series called Marriage Problems cause so many people just assume that we had this perfect idealic marriage and that we never fought and that we never, and so we created these new videos to say, well, we're gonna talk candidly, not to air our dirty laundry, but like what we struggle with and what we've learned from it. And so I've made a lot of mistakes in my marriage and I've made a lot of mistakes as a person. But one thing that I have going for me, Alicia says, is that I don't have a mean bone in my body. And so I remember one time I said to her, I'm sorry, I got so mad. And she said, when did you get mad? And I said about, about 10 minutes ago. And she says, that was you mad? And I said, yeah. And she goes, we're gonna be fine, right? So that was... Okay, yeah. So when it, again, you may have somebody who at their worst, they can be rude, condescending, critical, defensive with drawing, but is their worst abusive? Yeah. If their worst is actually abusive, it may not matter what their best is like. That's a good point. It's like, how do they treat you when they're upset? Do they still respect you? Do they cross your boundaries? That's a really good point. Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you for that. And honestly, I like that you approach it with empathy because even the people who are toxic or who are being like rude, you have to approach it with empathy because they probably have their own traumas. Most likely they do. Yeah. And I don't like to label people toxic even if it's the case because I feel like that denies with that label, it makes it harder for them to shake it. Whereas it's a lot healthier in my opinion to label a behavior as toxic. And I don't like to say, I mean, in cases of abuse, there's good and bad, but a lot of times if you tell a person their behavior is bad, they're gonna defend themselves and tell you why their behavior is good. And so I just like to ask the question, is it working? Most people will defend all day what they're doing is right. But if you ask them if it's working, most people can say, no, it's not. Yeah. And then at that point you can say, let's explore some other options, right? Let's explore some other ways of approaching this. Yeah, well, thank you for that. And I do like what you mentioned about maybe not labeling people because then people live up to that label, right? Yeah. Sometimes. Or it might make them feel like they want to, yeah. Like the fox in Zootopia, right? Right. If I'm always treated like a predator, then, or if I'm always treated like I'm bad, then I'm just gonna be that way. Cause, yeah. Anyways. Right. Thank you for that. And in terms of toxic behavior, in what ways, what are some examples of like crossing boundaries? And in any general sense, like friendships, romantic relationships, like what are some examples of crossing boundaries for people who maybe don't know? I think it's important to recognize, I'm gonna answer that, I'm gonna do a real quick detour that most people want to feel safe, loved and respected. And so most boundary violations are people making a desperate attempt to feel safe, love it and respected or reacting to not feeling that way. And so the best way to not cross over another person's boundaries is to do the work to feel safe, loved and respected by yourself. Because then you're not constantly, because I've been needy and I've been desperate and I've said and done things that were pathetic or rude or demanding, you know, younger me. And I realized it came from a place of insecurity. It came from a place of fear. And so one, when you're dealing with somebody who's crossing boundaries, I'll answer the question of what boundary violations look like, but it's important to draw your boundaries more firmly. And you don't need to judge the person in order to say for yourself, does this work for me or does it not work for me, right? You're not obligated to stay in any relationship. Even relationships like marriage, you know, in cases where, I'm not saying if it's hard leave, I'm saying in cases where you're trying to spend your life with somebody, right? Is this a relationship that is going to be, that is going to help you to become your highest and best self? So boundary violations look like, I mean, the easiest answer is you tell somebody what works for you and what doesn't and they trespass over it. Yeah. You tell somebody what you need to feel safe, loved and respected. And they say, well, what I want matters more. Because a healthy conversation is, oh, that's what you need to feel safe, loved and respected. That's not a fit for me because here's what I need to feel safe, loved and respected. Can we come to some sort of consensus or do we need to either end the relationship or adjust the nature of the relationship so it's now our friendship or with family members? You know, I have family members who are boundary crossers.  But other people, I say, okay, we're gonna have a Sunday dinner relationship. You're not gonna get to know my darkest secrets because you cross the boundaries through gossip, right?  What you've shown me is that I can't trust you. Doesn't mean I stopped caring about you. It means now we have Sunday dinner relationship and we chitchat for a couple hours and it's fine and it's loving and it's genuine and it's sincere but it's not as profound as it could be because the trust isn't there. It's like keeping them at an arm's length. Yeah, and I guess I could go into, there are hundreds of examples of what a boundary violation looks like but I think the simple definition like I say is if you say this is what I need to feel safe, loved and respected and the other person repeatedly crosses that line without accountability or effort to change and it takes both because you can have someone who crosses your boundaries a thousand times and they keep telling you they're sorry but they're not trying to be different and I don't know that you need to stay there, right? Exactly, exactly. I like what you mentioned about like you can genuinely like a person but realize that they are not respecting you and that they're crossing your boundaries so you can't have a profound relationship with them. That doesn't mean you hate them, yeah. No, and I don't even have to judge them. I can just say, well, this is where they're at based on their life experiences and their choices. This is what they're able to bring to the table and what they're able to bring to the table makes me feel disrespected, unloved or unsafe. Right, I agree with that. So in terms of, well, I wanted to bring this up because I think this is important and something that people don't always want to talk about may trigger warning, we're going to talk about trauma but how does trauma result in people staying in toxic relationships even when they know they're unhealthy? So here's trauma is for some people it's my world used to feel safe. The people, the world around me, how I experienced life there was a lot of hope and a lot of stability and then that was ripped away by a traumatic act or a series of acts or incidents. For other people, they never had the original I feel safe or I felt safe, right? And so what ends up happening is now my life is fear and when I'm in an unhealthy relationship and I know it's unhealthy and I refuse to get out most often it's because I'm afraid. I'm afraid of what the other person would say or do to me if I tried to leave. I'm afraid of what the other person would say or do to themselves if I tried to leave or they've got me convinced or life experience has me convinced that I can't thrive on my own. I can't survive on my own. I need to be taken care of even if it's by somebody who is hurtful and cruel. I recently read this book called Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway by Dr. I think it's Sue Carroll, I can't remember exactly her name but Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway. And in that book, she talks about most of our fear no matter what the surface of it is comes down to the same thing which is the feeling that I can't handle this and that's why we're afraid. And so the cure is to grow in confidence in your ability to handle things. For some it's self defense classes for others it's financial independence doing online courses or watching videos or whatever or for others is going to therapy and learning how to be emotionally independent. And you get to a place where, okay, I can be on my own now. I don't need this relationship to fulfill me or to feel taken care of. And the problem with abusers, one of many problems with abusers is they're keen on convincing the abused on their own inability to function, right? It's a form of gaslighting, your own inability to think, your own inability to reason, you need me, no one else will ever love you, these types of things. And of course it's not true. And so I really do think the more I do couples therapy and the more I do trauma therapy, the more I think the core of most of our problems is insecurity. Even arrogance and ego in egotistical behavior comes down to insecurity, right? If I have to posture and project how great I am and how in control I am and how I know everything and how I don't make mistakes or this isn't my fault or that's not my fault or look what you made me do. We, it comes across as strength, but it's a counterfeit, right? I'm afraid that people will see my weakness, including me, so I have to bury it so deep that I don't think I have it. Real confidence is owning your mistakes, real confidence is owning your weaknesses and real confidence is trusting in your ability to say, okay, I don't know how to do this, but I'm as capable as anybody and I can learn, right? Exactly. So why do people stay in abusive relationships? I think it's that, I think that's in, excuse me, I think it's that insecurity in a lot of cases and in some cases it's just plain, I don't feel physically safe if I try and leave, right? Like I just- Well, yeah, exactly. In some cases it's not the other, it's almost not the other person's decision, like they're in an abusive relationship or it's deep, like domestic violence. Other case, in other cases though, what you're trying to say or what I'm interpreting it as, are you trying to say it's like a, that fear stems from like a loss of control in some ways? Yeah. Yeah, like a loss of control and maybe a lack of self-love. It's definitely a lack of self-love and the loss of control thing is interesting because people try to counter that by controlling, people around them or controlling their circumstances, but the only thing you really can control and this is the power of it, I can control me. I can control my mind, I can control my emotions. And if it feels like I can't, it's because I haven't learned the right skills and practiced them enough. The fact is it's gonna be rough for a while trying to do that, but any of us can self-soothe, any of us can re-engage when we're calm and clear-headed, any of us can assess a situation and make strategies or any of us can also call in backup and use resources that are available to us to help us get into a good place. And so I'm interested that you said control because we do feel like our lives are out of control but the solution isn't what so many people do, which is to try and control their life or their environment. It's to control themselves, it's to master themselves. Exactly, so like a powerful tool is having a strong sense of self, essentially.  Yes, and to build on that, I know my worth, right? Wow, yeah, exactly. I know my worth, so a lot of people are in abusive relationships because they believe that's what they deserve. They believe they're trash or they believe that they're lesser or they believe all sorts of negative, false things about themselves. And what I like to tell people, and Alan actually said this in one of our episodes, all, quote him, he says, you're not that special.  And what he meant by that is we, because in the context, I know that sounds harsh, but what the context was is we all have strengths and we all have weaknesses. So either all of us have worth or none of us do because we're all basically the same. Like the strengths take different forms and the weaknesses take different forms. But most people aren't willing to say that their neighbor, their friend, their family member, their loved ones are worthless or that a stranger that they meet is worthless. But they believe that they're worthless. And so Alan's point is what makes you so special that everybody else has worth and you don't. I love that. So like we're all just sacks of meat doing the best we can. So either we all have worth or none of us do. And I choose to believe that we all do. In which case, I don't deserve to be treated poorly because no one does. Right? I don't deserve abuse or neglect because no one does. We all have that innate worth. Alicia and I have created this program because Mended Light is our other YouTube channel and cinema therapy exists kind of like that. The YouTube channel is the business, right? But Mended Light, that channel is kind of a gateway if people choose to get support for trauma.  And that's where the name Mended Light comes from is the idea that we all have light within us that we can share, that we can shine, that we can use. And when you experience a trauma, when you experience abuse, when you experience a toxic relationship, oftentimes it feels like that light is flickering or dimming or going out. And so how do we mend that? That's where that name comes from. I love that. And honestly, since you're like the cinema guy, it's funny when you were talking about like we accept the love we think we deserve, that's like perks of being a wallflower. Yes, yes. We accept the love we think we deserve.  And, but I have been teaching that principle. And that's the thing is good ideas don't really originate from any one person. Right.  I'm like, kind of. I'm sure others have had that thought. And the only reason I had the thought is because I've read and watched and listened to the thoughts and learnings of so many other people that have stimulated my brain, right? So. Exactly. And do you think going off of that concept of we accept the love we think we deserve, do you think it's almost subconscious sometimes like triggered by maybe traumas or just a subconscious thing. It's not always something that people are aware of. Oh yeah. I think there's a huge disconnect sometimes between our logic and our emotion and what we think and what we feel. Because if you look at brain biology, right? And you look at neural pathways and how these things develop across time, you can have light bulb moments and insights when you grow and mature. But in a high pressure situation or in an emotional situation, you're going to default to childhood. You're going to default to the emotional like, so if I was raised by abusive parents, I may believe I'm worthless and when there's a problem or somebody else is angry, I caused it, right? And I can learn as an adult, excuse me, I might sneeze here on the air. I'm gonna be looking at the lights. It's okay. Excuse me. Bless you. Thank you. I may learn as an adult. No, of course a child's not responsible for the behavior of their parents, right?  And I may accept that on a logical level, but on the deeper level, emotionally I still feel like I'm worthless because that's what I had from childhood. And so how do we merge the two? Is being aware, is bringing the subconscious into the conscious. Is when you feel triggered, when you feel overwhelmed or flooded or sad or self-loathing, to not just accept your subjective feelings as objective reality, right? And so to be able to say, okay, I feel worthless and that feels 100% true to me, but just because I feel it's true does that mean it actually is true, right? And to be able to challenge it and say, what am I gonna replace that with? I like to compare neural pathways and your psych to go audience knows all about neural pathways, I imagine. Some places I have to explain this more, which is fine, but I like to compare them to hiking trails in the brain, right? And the more a trail gets hiked on, the more well-worn it is, the more naturally, in this case, the neurons, but the more naturally the hikers just tend to gravitate that way. And to create a new trail takes a lot of work and you're naturally gonna gravitate towards what was there before until you use the new trail enough that the old one gets grown over from this use, right? And the brush and everything in the grass covers it. And it's the same way with our thoughts and with our feelings about ourselves. And so it's not enough to have a light bulb moment in most cases. You have to follow up that light bulb moment with continually shepherding the brain, right? Towards the new trail. And towards, I had this insight about who I am and who I want to be in my relationship with the world. And I know it's true cognitively, but emotionally I find myself struggling to believe it. And it just takes practice of deliberate redirecting. And so that's why lists are really handy, like the negative thoughts and the positive thoughts and what you're gonna replace with. And it's not just replacing a negative thought with a positive thought, because if the positive thought is BS, then your brain's gonna reject it. You have to replace it. You have to replace it with a positive thought that's real. And sometimes the positive thought that's real is I can be better. Because if you try and say, let's say I have a problem screaming at my kids, I could tell myself, well, I'm a great dad all day long, but the brain's gonna reject that because it has all of this evidence of these negative experiences. But the positive thought I can replace it with is I have every power within me to be different. And that's empowering. That is empowering. I agree with that. You have to, I think that what people need to understand that a lot of the times, having a strong self identity and strong sense of self and self love is a journey. It's a process. It's not just something that's like this. I mean, maybe for some people it's easy, but for most of us it's a process of learning and it's practice like what you mentioned. Yeah, and self love isn't selfish. And sometimes selfish behaviors, we act selfishly in the name of self love, but what is self love? It's recognizing that other people matter. If I'm going to be there for other people, I have to be there for myself first so I have something in the tank. Like just recently I started disciplining myself to get up because I was feeling old and out of shape and it wasn't the aesthetics of how I looked. It was more just how I felt, right? And I found myself grumpy and irritable and having a hard time focusing. And so lately I've been prioritizing, getting up early and going to the gym. And I tell people exercise for sanity, not for vanity. Like swimsuit season, whatever, the psychologically the reason to exercise is so you're sharp and so you're calm and so you're at peace and so you have the discipline. And just that one simple act has completely changed. It's not completely, that's an exaggeration. It's majorly changed my relationships. It's changed the level of whether I feel resentment towards the people in my life for taking my time, which I shouldn't because I chose to have them in my life. But if I'm not taking care of myself, their very existence is a burden, which they're not. But you know what I mean? And that's, and let me be clear, they're not a burden but I could feel that way about them if I'm not looking after myself. And the beautiful thing about loving yourself, like truly loving yourself, is it allows you to love others more completely. Wow, that's powerful. Could you say that again for everyone in the room? Sure. Sorry, I've got the air vent right underneath me and it's blowing dust particles. That's okay. The best part of loving yourself, of truly loving yourself empowers you to love others. It's like a tool to love others more profoundly, deeply and wholly, right? Yes, because if your life is all about loving others, what I've discovered is sometimes you do that because you want others to validate you or see you as a good person or you want the kickback of their appreciation or their gratitude. And so it's not genuine real love. It's kind of selfish. Whereas if I don't need others to feel that need for me, if I genuinely feel it for myself, then anything they give me in reciprocation is a bonus and it's a wonderful thing. But even if they never do, I know who I am. And it helps me to make sure that my love is actual love instead of I'm quid pro quo, right? More people pleasing. Yeah, yeah. This is only tangentially related to toxic relationships but I think it's talking about how to build a healthy relationship. So we're still on that one. Absolutely. I mean, the positive and the negative, right? This is perfect. So now we're gonna go to the audience question segment. So the first question I have is from Sierra. She asks, what's the best way to intervene when someone you love is in a toxic relationship? You know, that word intervention, we usually use it to mean that you're not able to manage your own life anymore and for your own good, we're taking the reins of your free will from you. And I'm not saying that's never the right thing to do. I'm saying you gotta be careful because most often that'll backfire. Most often what's gonna happen is if you try and intervene and sabotage a relationship, you're gonna lose your ability to connect with influence be there for that person and they're gonna go deeper into the abusive relationship. The best way to intervene is just to speak your mind. One of my favorite phrases, not in therapy as much, but just in like my personal relationships with people is I'm gonna say this once and then I'm gonna leave it alone. Because generally speaking, I don't like to intervene in people's lives unless they invite me to, right? In therapy, I've got the invitation. Excuse me, I got a little sniffle now. In therapy, I've got the invitation. In personal lives, it's harder because you can be interpreted as a know-it-all who's sick and there knows where it doesn't belong, right? Speaking of which, excuse me. And so what I like to say is I'm gonna say this once and I'm gonna leave it alone. I'm also coming at this from my own perspective so take that for what it's worth. I'm concerned and here's why. And then speak your piece. And you can even own up front. Like you could strip away any reason for defensiveness. You could say things like, I may not have all the information. I only have my perspective. Like things like that decrease and diminish people's need to push back against you and increase that they're gonna hear you.  I also want you to know that if this ever goes sideways or if you ever decide to be done with this relationship, I don't want you to feel like I'm gonna say I told you so or give you a hard time. Whether you stay in this relationship or not, I'm your ride or die. Like I'm here for you. So don't hesitate to use me. You're not a burden. I love that phrase, you're not a burden. I love that, yeah. Cause so many people don't reach out for help cause they don't wanna be a burden. And what I tell those people is, why would you deny someone the chance to love you, right? That's so true. Cause if they're your friend, they want to be there for you, right? If they're your friend or family, and by family, I mean that in terms of closeness and love, not blood cause you can have family that's not really family and you can have friends that are definitely family. Wow, yeah, that's true. I'm blessed to have both, but like if they're truly family, they want to be there for you. One of the hardest things for me is my mom had a lot of health problems before she passed away and she kept them from the kids, a lot of them from the kids, even though we were adults. And I remember that made me so mad cause she wanted to protect us and spare us and didn't want us to worry. And I'm like, we're worried anyways. And we're adults, we don't need you to take care of us anymore. You're denying us the opportunity to be there for you the way you were there for us. I remember I told her this and then we had a few years where she started to let me know more of all the stuff she was going through and it was good. Like even though she passed away, I was glad to have the time to be there for her. So anybody who's watching this don't underestimate people's desire to be there for you. That's so beautiful because healing happens on both sides in that situation.  I apologize, folks. I have ADHD and so I go off on tangents. Don't apologize. No, you're giving amazing advice. Okay, thank you. I do feel like I keep straying from the topic because I'm like, oh, this might be helpful or oh, that might be helpful, but. When it comes to our YouTube channels, afterwards we film these episodes or we film these videos and then we go over them and Alan has ADHD too and so our poor editors. Like afterwards we're like, yeah, let's get rid of all of this, let's keep this and it feels more streamlined but if you ever actually interact with Alan or I it's a bit more all over the place. When you're an expert and you're full of advice and knowledge, it can be hard because you just want to put it all out there, right? You're kind to say so and thank you that is, no, there's truth to that. Like just want to help. Yeah, of course. And so Brianna asks, how do you recognize toxic traits in yourself? This is a great question. Okay, and Brianna and everybody else because I've been meandering, I'm going to start giving shorter answers so I can get to more of the questions. So I apologize, I don't mind if you're tilted. How can you recognize, learn about them?   So I think learning about the traits and then here's the really hard one listening to people when they tell you because oftentimes they're speaking to the behavior and you're speaking to your intentions, right?  It's like the mother in, what's the, seeing red, no, turning red, the Disney, if you've seen that, it's like the mother in turning red or in everything everywhere all at once, the same thing, where these mothers can't for a long time see themselves as toxic and even sometimes abusive because their heart's in the right place and they can't imagine that what they're doing is causing harm. Oh wow, that's a great point. And so how do you recognize toxic traits in yourself? I've never met a person who was displaying toxic behaviors who at least early on saw that their behaviors were toxic. All of them thought, I'm doing good, I'm trying to help, this is needed, this is right, right? Yeah. So I think we need to listen to other people and that doesn't mean that if someone says something, you just accept it as truth but you shouldn't dismiss it out of hand either. I've learned, I've always seen myself as a good person because I am a good person. Like I try and do right by others and I try and help and I try and be kind and compassionate but something I've learned the past couple of years in my marriage, speaking of the video series I'm doing with my wife on Men to Light right now is I had major blind spots of selfishness and dishonesty and they started with being dishonest with myself and because I believed myself to be such a good person when she told me, when my wife told me, I'm like, what the hell are you even talking about? Who are you talking to? Like what is this? This isn't me and it took a long time for me like to clear the cobwebs of my own perspective and see hers and so. Exactly. Yeah. I think it's the ability to self-reflect as well like always reminding yourself, okay, I mean there are things that I do wrong I need to assess myself.  So your random gem helped me out a lot. Thank you, John. Thank you. Thank you, Oni girl. And please give, your mom doesn't know me.  She'll be like, thanks, but give my love to your mother. She could watch this.  Anyways, we'll keep moving. Okay. Okay. Before you go to next question, the tricky thing about self-reflection is even that could be taken to an extreme where now it's a neurosis and you're obsessively thinking, did I do the right thing? Did I say the right thing? Are my motivations right? And then here's the thing about mental health guys. We're all messed up in one way or another, right? It's just different from person to person. And when people say, this is what I think and feel is that normal. I always tell them the same thing which is there's no such thing as normal. So just embrace our collective beauty and our collective brokenness and then we just work through it as best we can. Exactly. Do you see this one? I wanted to highlight it. I do. Nurran asks, how do I distance myself from someone who is being too toxic? I always feel like I'm hurting them even though it's hurting me by staying around that energy. Which I think we can all relate to that. It can be so hard to leave. Um, here's what I would say. It will hurt them. But your job isn't to spare the people you love pain. I'm reminded of Marlon in finding Nemo when he's like, I promise that I would never let anything happen to him. And Dory says, well, that's a funny thing to promise. If you'd never let anything happen to him then nothing will ever happen to him. The fact is relationships are a gamble. And C.S. Lewis and others have said that pain is the price that we pay to experience love, right? And you can live without, you can't really live without pain, but you can minimize pain by living without love. But then what's the quality of life with that, right? Exactly. And so if you're in a relationship with someone and it's toxic and it's demeaning to your, let me find the exact phrase because I like this phrase a lot. A prolonged, I've heard someone say like, what's just cause for breaking up or just cause for divorce? It's a prolonged and apparently irredeemable relationship that is destructive of a person's dignity as a human being. If being in this relationship is destructive of your dignity, I applaud you for your selfless concern for the other person, but this is a virtue turned into a vice, right? That level of selfless sacrifice comes to an extreme where it's now something that not only hurts you, but let's say you don't really care too much about it hurting you, you're worried about the other person, well, it's hurting them cause they're now with somebody who every day wishes they weren't, right? And so I know a lot of media references, but staying in the police, if you love someone set them free, I think that staying means nothing unless someone's free to leave. And so you have to make yourself free to leave. If this relationship isn't going to work, it's a mercy to end it sooner rather than later. Yeah, and pain is a part of life, but it's knowing when to walk away. And so I like that point that you made cause you can't completely avoid pain, right? I mean, it's just a part of the human experience, right?  Exactly.  Sometimes people change. Sometimes they dig deeper into their bitterness and their views on the world, but that's not really up to you. Mm-hmm, exactly. And so this is gonna be the last question, the last audience question. How can you help someone who's a narcissist but doesn't realize it when you talk with them about it and then they get mad? Oh, wow. It's a loaded question. It is a loaded question. Okay, there's a shorter version and a longer version. The shorter version is remove the expectation from yourself that it's your duty to, well, I was gonna say duty to help them, but I'll actually change that to strip yourself of expectations of outcomes. There is no one right way, and there are people that you could do everything right. You could do it in the healthiest way possible and there's too many walls there. There's too many walls of self-protection. In the case of a narcissist, there's this fear of if I am wrong or if I've made mistakes, then that's weakness. And so I can't be wrong and I can't make mistakes. And so someone like that, you're fighting this endless battle to get them to acknowledge that they've done wrong, that they've made a mistake, that they're flawed and they are deeply, deeply invested in not coming to that conclusion. And so they'll fight you tooth and nail. And so the question to ask yourself is not, how can I get them to see it? The question to ask yourself is, what is my side? What is out of human kindness, what can I say so that at least this thought is planted in their mind that they may recall later, that it may come back to them later and help them. You can say to someone like that, and I guess you said they're a narcissist and they won't see it even when you tell them, well, maybe you don't tell them they're a narcissist because they don't see themselves as a narcissist so they're gonna reject that. And it's maybe try a different approach of talking about is this working?  And you can tell me what you're trying to accomplish with that behavior and then I'll tell you what you can do that would actually give you that result, right? So essentially remove the labels and just discuss the behavior. Yeah, love that. Yeah, it's more effective. Yeah, so thank you. These are great questions. Yeah, amazing. We have amazing viewers. So thank you for those questions to everyone watching. And so these are gonna be the last questions it's mental health awareness month. And so I just wanted to ask what's your mental health professional? How do we eliminate the stigma around seeking mental health treatment? I think the more we talk about it, the more we talk about it personally, not using third-person language talking about somebody else going to therapy, that here's the, I guess here's the hard thing. I can't ask this as a therapist but I can't ask this as a person. As a therapist, I could never ask one of my clients to speak publicly about going to therapy, right? Because I don't have the right to ask them that. What I can say is that the people who do normalize it. Karen Gillan or Gillan, I can't remember her last name but she plays Nebula in Guardians of the Galaxy. She's also in the Jumanji movies. She did a post recently that just, I loved it so much. And my geeky therapist heart just loved this post. She shared a screenshot of a day that she was filming Guardians of the Galaxy in full Nebula makeup. And she forgot that she had a couples therapy session with her husband. And so she didn't have time to take the makeup off. Like she rushed from the set and it was virtual. And so like they scratched out the therapist's face. But it's her and her husband and then a therapist with the face scratched out. And she's in couples therapy as Nebula with the makeup, right? Oh my God. Oh, wow. She's devoted though. She's like, I'm gonna do both. And it's a funny story. But she also said, hey, my husband and I go to couples therapy and I have no problem owning that before the world that that's a healthy, beautiful thing to do. And there are quite a few celebrities who do that. At Mended Light, we have merch that says going to therapy is cool. Like on water bottles and stickers and decals and stuff. I love that. But just the idea of, we don't find shame in going to the dentist. My teeth needed work. We don't find shame in going to a cardiologist, right? But for some reason, when it comes to the brain or when it comes to the heart, figuratively speaking, there's all sorts of shame around that. Like strong people shouldn't have to go. But I think we're moving past the age of stoicism where you can't acknowledge vulnerability, where you can't acknowledge mistakes, where you can't acknowledge struggles. That that's human. And the more any of us do it, like I've gone to therapy. I'll tell you that right now. I'm the therapist and I've gone to therapy. I'm the therapist and I've needed to work on my marriage. Right? Like life is hard. Emotions are hard. The mental illness is hard. And no one's immune. Even if you called me an expert, like the fact is it's really easy. It's relatively easy when it's not my life, when it's not my emotions, when it's not my issues. I'm frankly pretty good at what I do. And I'm not saying like I've got this terrible family life or anything like that. Like I love my wife, I love my kids. What I'm saying is we've all got struggles and we need to normalize that so that it's not scary to talk about. Because people feel alone when they can't, when they feel like nobody else is going through this. Or they think everyone who's going through this is super messed up. And so I guess I'm just one of these messed up people. And that's why I tell everyone to embrace that we're all messed up. It's just, it just looks different from person to person. And their strength and power and vulnerability. And I think people need to remember that. And so thank you so much, Jonathan, for being here. We really appreciate it. Thank you for all of the viewers for asking their questions. And I hope that everyone has an amazing day. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you all. Take care. Thank you.


I'm just going to try and address the question for you. How do you choose which vocabulary to use to enhance discovery and description of your data sets? And how do you know their quality? And these are questions that are being increasingly asked. And I'm going to use, I know I'm a bit of a mad hatter of Australian informatics. And the hat I'm going to wear here is my position and relationship with CoData as chair of the Academy of Science National Committee for Data in Science, which is also the de facto Australian National Committee, because this is starting to become a serious issue scientifically. Next. And so what's the context? There's an emerging issue with vocabularies to put it bluntly, they're proliferating or brooding like rabbits. And a review, as you know, is carried out of research vocabularies Australia that highlighted some issues. And this one came out in particular. The level of community or domain endorsement per vocabulary is unclear. We have authoritative data sets, but are there authoritative vocabularies? If so, how are they identified within a vocabulary service? So I'm sorry it didn't come out on the right, but within RVA there are 13 vocabularies on boreholes. And this is the issue because the users are starting to say, well, gee, it's really nice having 13, but which one do I pick? Now, the attitude in setting up RVA with Adrian Burton has been that if somebody wants to come along and publish a vocabulary in RVA, then we will. We are not going to be judgmental or say, oh, this one's better than the other one, because as you can imagine, ARDC is research data. We're not domain experts. We don't have the ability to differentiate and, you know, like who'd go that way anyway. So what we thought would be, can we actually provide users with guidelines as to which are the better vocabularies? Next slide, please. So when you think about it, they're asking ARDC should be for something substantial.  Let's go and see what everybody else is doing. And so Simon, Rowan, Adrian and I have run four sessions on this topic in the last six or eight months, starting with ESIP, Earth Systems Information Partners, which is an Earth Science Group. We then brought the same questions back to eResearch Australasia. We took it to the RDA plenary in the Earth and Space Science Group. So we went back to Earth and Space Environmental Sciences. And then finally, we presented it at the GoFair Co-Data Symposium. And so if you click on all those links, you've got all the documentation, all the presentation. And in a nutshell, all came to the same conclusion. We're aware of the proliferation problem in some cases that is necessary. But are we really tackling the problem at the moment? And that is being able to help users know which vocabulary they should choose. Next. And so I really want to say that I'm using the definition of a vocabulary as a value set, concept set, vocabularies, glossaries, the psorias, lists, knowledge, graphs, et cetera. We're all putting it in that bag. Next. And the reason we did that is that if you look at this diagram, which I've based on some work by Leo Orbs, you can sort of see that down in the bottom left, you have lists, which are lists. And then when you move up to the top right, you've got people who are doing ontologies and axiomization of those ontologies, which is fairly sophisticated. We're also starting to notice that there was a discrimination occurring in that the people who are up in the top right in the ontology said, oh, we should ban all this. They should be taken out of the equation.  It's my primary role. And in some cases, it's all we've got. We've only got a list. So we can't discriminate on the maturity of it. We need to be aware of it. Ideally, I watched many groups start to move up to the top right. But at the moment, we have to live with the fact that a lot of these vocabs that are in RBI are lists, and they're valid lists. Next. So what is important to know whether you can trust the vocabulary? And these are the questions we've been asking at all those sessions. In the machine actionable world, unless we know what we mean by the terms we are using, communication can be fuzzy and not well understood, particularly in transdisciplinary or multilingual environments. And so for effective and accurate communication, we need the adoption of shared vocabularies and terminologies. It's critical to the discovery and understanding of our published resources and will help reduce ambiguity, but at the same time increasing interoperability. Next. So how widely do I share and have my data and have it understood? As I said, many organizations have local lists that serve multiple functions, including enhancing discovery and annotation and description. But the size of the group that can interact with that data set and its terms is only as large as the size of the group that understands the definitions, concepts and languages being used to describe that data set. And so that's another attribute we have to understand. Next. So with increasing globalization of data and information resources, particularly we've seen it with COVID and climate change, enabling a common understanding of any concept used to describe will define a thing in our world is becoming critical. And so we have this need to develop common vocabularies that can be used across broader communities and support harmonization of information across disciplines and language. But we need to be able to communicate to the users how reliable, persistent and usable is the asset they're wanting to use. Is it governed or endorsed by an authority? Is it fair, which is what Simon has been covering? And more importantly, what is the quality of the vocabulary? Next. And again, as I said, we're going to take it at any stage of maturity of a vocabulary. Next. So the challenges to communicate to the users information about its quality, sustainability and conditions of use. So the users can make these informed choices. And it's not easy. Next. So what I started to do was to delve into this work being done by Rama Purin et al. on ensuring the quality of information. So this is designed for quality of data in science. And you can see it breaks it up into four dimensions. So for inner vocabulary, the science, I mean the content. What are the terms that are being used? Are they endorsed? Are they valid? And then you put that content into a vocabulary in the bottom right as the product. Then you have to steward it and preserve it so others can use it. And finally, you're making it available as a service. So these are the four dimensions. And just an aside, this US group will be presenting at the ARDC Data Quality Community of Practice in April, if you're interested in following this quality dimensions theory. Next. And so you can see here how myself and a couple of others we've started to say, well, what's scientific quality in a vocabulary? Who defined the term? Are they recognized as authoritative? What's the vocabulary structure? Does it have a definition? Does it follow standards? Who's the gatekeeper, which is what Simon was saying? Who's keeping the vocabulary fair? And then above all, we come to the service like RVA or NERC that's delivering up the vocabulary. And what are we doing? You can sort of see how you're getting different communities working around that. But to work through that, that's going to go take years of work and we don't really have the gift of time. Next. And so as per usual, what's a quick and dirty approach? And so what we thought of was that Tim Berners-Lee has this five star open data on the web, which we're all very familiar with. And it just gives you a quick guideline to the quality and usability of the asset that you're trying to take up. Next. And already if you go to data.gov, it's got a five star rating for data sets on its site. So one of the things we toyed with was whether or not on RVA we could do a quick five star ranking for our vocabularies. Next. And so you can sort of see this is what we've taken. So one star is just someone's what we call brain fart on the web of the list. Then it becomes machine actionable. And concept-based RDF. And then we're getting up to that concept-based RDF linked, endorsed, multilingual. And so then when somebody goes into RVA, they can see the five stars. And if you've got a ranking on each of the vocabularies that we have, like the 13 boreholes, if your purpose is that you want a sustainable resource, then you'll take the five stars. So anyway, that's just a proposal. I don't know where it'll go to next. But where are we going in the longer term? And again, this is a co-data background. They are planning mapping the landscape exercise of semantic resources and will seek involvement in the social science unions and other relevant societies for endorsement. It's critical to their decodal plan. It's also relevant to anyone who works in the Sustainable Development Goals. Co-data also planning to delete the development of a core trust-like SEAL certification. It's not going to be the one that you've got for repositories, but something similar for vocabularies and for endorsement. So anyway, that was just a side on what we're doing to try and make our vocabularies that are on RVA try and get over to the user. Things they should think about when they choose the one without going to that drastic step of saying, this is the one ARDC feels you should choose. It should be up to you, the user, and your use case to make those decisions. Okay, so I think that's all.


Hello everybody, I'm Michael Bailey with Avocon and I'm known around the metaverse as Marcus Lee Wellum. I'm glad you're back to watch this next video in our Learning to Build with Open Simulator tutorial series. In past tutorials, we've learned how to res primitives, move prims around, rotate prims, resize prims, select and deselect prims, create and manipulate link sets, how to edit prims inside of a link set, how to name prims in link sets, taking your build into your inventory, how to easily duplicate prims, path cutting prims and hollowing prims. If any of these sound unfamiliar to you or you feel you could use a refresher on any one of them, I encourage you to go back and re-watch the relevant tutorials. All of these skills are important because in this tutorial, we're going to combine all of these abilities to build a simple bench. We're not going to try to create a perfect piece of art, but we do want to try to practice all that we've learned to make the jump from specifics of building to the practical use of our skills. Let's take a look at a bench that I've already created. It is made up of just four cubes that have been moved, resized and altered into their current form. If we edit the bench, we can highlight all of its parts and look around it to see just how all the parts were put together. At this point, if you want, you can pause this video and use all the skills you've learned so far to recreate this bench on your own. Every builder works a little bit differently and has their own style. I encourage you to give this a try. When you're finished or if you'd simply like to watch this bench being built, you can continue watching this tutorial and see how the bench is assembled step by step. Let's begin building the bench now. As always, we'll stir up by opening our build window, then we'll res a cube. We're going to use our resize controls to flatten the cube. Let's also use our resize controls to make the cube just a bit bigger. That looks good. And remember to use your camera to get the best possible view of your prim. Next, we're going to hollow out our prim. We can do that with the up arrow. Or remember, we can always put in a setting that is exactly what we want. Let's try 60. That looks good. Now let's change the default hollow shape to circle. Next, we're going to path cut this prim. And we're going to use the end side of the path cut. Let's use the down arrow for this one. And keep pushing it until we're at about .75. Now we have one set of our bench legs. Let's rotate this so that it's upright and sitting properly on the ground. Now rather than do this all over again with a new prim, we can hold our shift key and drag to create a whole new set of legs. Now let's res another cube, raise it up. And using our resize controls, we're going to flatten this and stretch it out until it generally matches the position of our legs. And let's adjust its position so that it's sitting right on top of them. Go ahead and make any tweaks that you need along the way. Now, once again, rather than recreate this prim, we're going to hold our shift key and let's drag up. And this will be the back of our bench. Let's rotate it so that it's standing upright and then move it into the right position. As you can see, we have all the pieces that we need for the bench. Now let's link them into a single object. Let's select all of the pieces and link them with control L. The bench is now one object. Now let's go in our build window to the general tab. Let's name this link set Bench. We're done building, but we don't want to just leave our bench lying around. So let's open up our inventory and then right click on the bench. Choose more and take copy. As you can see, our bench has appeared in our inventory. And if we delete the bench we just made, we can go into our inventory, drag the bench out and res it back. Good job! You built your first complete object using multiple prims. As you can see, it isn't hard at all with practice and some patience. I really hope you had fun following along. In our next tutorial, we'll learn a few more ways to change the shape of a prim. But for now, that's the end of this tutorial. Thank you very much for watching and keep practicing, building, and having fun!


Workout may not be burning as many calories as you think. The calorie counters on exercise machines like ellipticals and trendmills can over or underestimate the number of calories burned by 25 to 30 percent. That can mean you're off by over 100 calories less or more than you thought. The difference could be due to things like a person's body type in current way and outside factors like if you're holding onto the rails or not using the machine properly.


So if you're wondering what you're doing in a cabinet and you're in a cabinet if you didn't know that We're gonna straighten my hair. And if you're wondering why we're doing that because we're definitely not a beauty channel here Well, let me tell you why I have noticed ever since I had my leg amputated that it has become exponentially more important for me to take care of myself Like take care of my body whatever that means to me and what that means to me now is that every day most days not every day I actually get dressed for the day. I take a shower if I need to take a shower. I Do my hair and usually I like do my makeup because I have fun with that and so we're Straighten my hair and I'm gonna chitchat with you. It's been interesting to me How much simple things like that matter when I'm stuck at home Like I will literally get ready for the day put on my makeup take it off all within the time I wake up after my husband is left for work and before he gets back for work sometimes And I'm totally alone. So this is a hundred percent for me And I realized that that has really made me feel sane during this time And I haven't able to drive because I'm still on medications I'm still in a lot of pain most of the time another thing that has definitely helped is having some kind of goal for the day Like today my great goal was making it upstairs to take care of my rats now before you get totally grossed out.  They have learned tricks and they know their names and for those wondering I do wrap up my leg thoroughly in saran wrap and Then I put you know cloth over that so that they do not touch it at all And they're technically the cleanest rodent out there gula. Don't take my word for it So I'm actually going to introduce you guys to them here shortly because they're super cute If you don't like rats just skip that part of the video if I don't have a goal for the day. I start feeling Super depressed and it's hard to stay Positive sometimes during this whole process being a lot of pain having things change so much not be working right now I'm usually like not really a workaholic, but kind of and I need to have some kind of goal even if it's silly and little and so I know okay That's the one thing I have to do and yesterday was making sure all the bills got in the mail because doctors like getting paid for their work Small tip for you there. Also an update on how accepting help is going. It's not going very well I put out a video a while ago about being humble and now accepting help and asking for it and all that and how it's important now and Man the the further along I go in this process the more I realize that it is so difficult to really humble yourself and let People help you. I would rather hop around the house on one night and attempt to vacuum it when I'm exhausted on heavy medication and might pass out then ask someone to do it for me and That's a problem that becomes dangerous when I want to ask for help with stuff like that and so That is why I am still actively working on all right guys It's time for the goal of the day, which is making it upstairs with my camera to visit my rats little asmate Bridget and D With you guys, let me introduce you to them This is a little Bridget little Bridget's just about two years old now She's super carly. Oh, but she went to go for an adventure So when I'm not all the way downstairs chilling on the couch, this is sort of my yoga Relaxation journaling sort of room. I'm really active in yoga I previously have been until my ankle started giving out and so one of the things I'm really excited to start doing again is yoga Along with jiu-jitsu and everything So hopefully in a few weeks to a few months. I will start using this room for its true purpose Which is along with the little rats yoga. So you may notice that there are two Cages behind me.  They're so sweet. What you doing? This is little D and her sister Esme D is super adventurous.  This is Esme little Esme was abused at a pet store So she never comes out of her cage. She's very scared. She'll take food from my hand I've had her about six months now, but she doesn't like being touched. So I never I don't I don't push her boundaries I let her do her thing.  So she's way more a little more spazzy Then the little Bridget who you met a moment ago, but she's still very cuddly and sweet, isn't she? One source of sanity in my day Has become making coffee forces me to come up the stairs move around. So in that pirate unboxing video I did my friend actually sent me coffee in the bottom of that box from Indiana from Luca B coffee Let me tell you some of the best coffee I've ever had And so that is what we are gonna have today This is a not a sponsored video by them But I am gonna definitely link their website in the bio of the in the description of this video Fantastic coffee leave me a comment in the comment section if you are a coffee lover like I am I basically live on it I try to keep my caffeine consumption low, but that's a little challenging when coffee is so delicious I usually drink it black unless I'm having a Basic girl moment and then it's you know filled with sugar and creamer and might be a toasted white chocolate mocha from Starbucks they were brewing black coffee from mocha bees in Indiana Yeah, that's pretty hot if you drink it straight from the the when it came out of the pot Take care of yourselves. Thank you for watching and I will talk to you soon. Bye