The following is a presentation of TFNN the morning market kickoff With your host Tommy O'Brien Good morning everybody. I'm Tommy O'Brien comedy live from TFNN Thursday morning 9 o'clock 6 a.m. We got about 24 minutes to go until the start of trading and guess what folks we got positive prices yet again Quite a buy of the dip whether it was Monday's action that we saw the acceleration of 42 93 Tuesday we saw action as well putting this on a 15 minute chart. We'll jump right into it on the S&P's You're talking about a price level Tuesday afternoon. I guess we'll call it 8 p.m. Eastern time We're trading at 43 20. You just traded up a hundred points from Tuesday afternoon folks We got a lot of hundred point moves in here You had a hundred point move from the lows of Monday to the overnight action on Tuesday Then you trade down from 43 96 about 75 points to the lows at 8 p.m Tuesday evening and since then when you climb up a hundred points quite an acceleration yesterday You saw some volatility at the 2 p.m. Announcement the volatility continued on the 2 30 p.m. Press conference We end the day higher and nonetheless we charge higher overnight as well You see the accelerations we got whether it was about 2 30 in the morning got another acceleration at 3 30 We make highs in the markets at about 5 a.m. Eastern time and a little bit of negative action in the last few minutes We're trading right at 4400 on the dot. We're up about a third of a percent the S&P's Nasdaq 100 a little bit of sell-off in the last 15 30 minutes or so. We make it to 15 3100 you're talking about 500 points from the lows we had on Tuesday You're currently up about a tenth of percent. You get the Dow up more than half a percent right now 34,000 310 in the Russell positive by 11 points this morning trading at 22 26 Bitcoins has a volatility we almost make it to 40,000 earlier in the week. We're trading at 43,000 450 You got crude hanging tough. Look at that acceleration crude up to 72 50 overnight. We're trading at 72 28 We were just trading at 69 39 on Tuesday. You're talking about almost a three dollar move to the upside on crude Now you take a look at crude on the daily You're talking about the higher boundary line of about 75 dollars is where we were early in July for highs in that crude contract Back to the short-term charts. We got gold selling off today gold's off $23 right now. You see the volatility on the Fed announcement yesterday gold trading from 17 75 Just at 8 15 this morning quite an acceleration over the last hour to the downside on gold down $20 from that price point Silver right now down 34 cents at 22 56 and we jumped to notes and bonds We're getting a little bit of a lower price and higher yield. You got the 10 year right now We're coming down to right where we were last Friday be an interesting area. We take a look at it on the daily You see the move that we're at Again kind of matching up to where we were last Friday, but man you keep accelerating lower It seems like the lower boundary line in that consolidation areas at about 130 120 That's a full point lower than from where we're trading at right now You don't have to go back that far on the 10 year just August 4th You're going back about six or seven weeks. You were at a price point of 135 14 folks That's almost three full points that we've given up in the 10 year when you talk about where we are On that yield and that's correlating the 10-year yield correlating right now to 1.37 percent It's we're getting some rising yields be interesting to see how that hits all the markets today Especially the NASDAQ 100 the weakest of the indices so far as you're up about two tenths of percent You got the S&P's up four tenths the Dow up six tenths right now in the Russell up six tenths as well So maybe those higher yields gonna weigh on some of those fang stocks as we look for the open this morning All right What else we have in terms of economic data this morning? We got weekly jobless claims that number coming in a little bit hot then what we were looking for 351,000 initial unemployment claims for state programs That's the week ended September 18th the median estimate was looking for 320 on that chart A little bit of an uptick, but when you talk about where we are in terms of 30,000 jobs Not a big miss on that number at all continuing claims increased to 2.8 million for the week ended September 11th Continuing claims remember one week delayed versus initial unemployment claims And yes, so that number out at 8 30 this morning California saw claims rise by 24,000 Virginia saw an increase of 12,000 by far the biggest increase last week Louisiana So the biggest decrease as the state recovers from Hurricane Ida a lot of influences and variables going on there in a big way Jumping over to the Fed. So Chairman Powell yesterday a little bit of volatility in both directions. Nothing too surprising here tapering may begin at their next meeting, which is going to be in early November November 2nd and 3rd Let's get it up on the calendar here. There's October Yeah, November 2nd and 3rd first week of November. You got a meeting on Tuesday and Wednesday to kick off November trading And they talk about so this is the bond and asset purchases I'm sure we're all listening to it yesterday, but it'll be interesting to see how the anticipation comes into November How the market reacts once they actually do start tapering and it's gonna probably be a gradual process That will take them through the middle of 2022. There's your process November and complete the process by mid 2022 Powell explaining the US central bank's first steps toward Excuse me one second Toward withdrawing emergency pandemic support for the economy told reporters Wednesday that tapering could come as soon as the next Meeting now we have tapering that's gonna be happening It's gonna be happening from November through the middle of 2022. You might see about an eight month schedule The market had talked about that we had might have seen that schedule come out on this meeting that we just had so not quite To accelerate it as in that was one possible outcome yesterday is that they would have actually given you that schedule now They potentially may give us that schedule in November Although there's the caveat He left the door open to waiting longer if needed and stress that tapering was not meant to start a countdown to lift off From zero interest rates He's trying to Separate the two the timing and the pace of the coming reduction in asset purchases will not be intended to carry a direct signal regarding the timing of interest rate lift off always interesting trying to dissect What the Fed is trying to do there? Is that a message from the markets to calm them as they try and raise interest rates in the coming year or two? Or is that just the straight-out truth that they are two separate actions that are not Intertwined in any way and do not take the fact that they are going to be tapering their bond and asset purchases As a signal that interest rate lift off will be coming. That's the message that he's putting out there Said he didn't expect the Fed to begin rate increases until after completing the tape taper process Which would wrap up sometime around the middle of next year so What you get out of that is they're not going to be happening at the same time probably okay? That's what he's putting there It's a bit faster than the last cycle. That's TD securities chief US macro strategist Jim O'Sullivan saying he was very clear in the press conference that soon Means November So look for that schedule in November look for it to begin look for interest rates to stay where they are at least Well that tapering Proceeds the Fed took 10 months to complete the exercise of scaling back bond buying back in 2014 10 months would bring us eight months into the middle of 2022 the middle of 2022 obviously has some wiggle room But if you actually pin it right to the middle then you're talking about potentially an eight month taper process in there for the Fed when you Look at the dot plots a slight adjustment that could point to Potentially raising the Fed funds rate as soon as next year according to the median estimates of FOMC Participants in June the median projection indicated no increases in 2023 so a slight uptick there, but man 2023 folks we got a long way to go They're gonna have a lot more economic data that's gonna be shaping those decisions by that time much more so than we have right now Stay tuned folks. We'll come right back talking to our man Kevin Hanks from TD Ameritrade fast market We'll be right back golden ratios to shape to everything in our world Represented in the Fibonacci sequence these special numbers to find the patterns that make up our universe Not even markets can escape the omnipotence of these ratios Larry Pezzavento is a 45-year market veteran who has published nearly a dozen books on the powerful patterns We find in nature and their relationships with the ever elusive markets Larry's newsletter Fibonacci 24-7 will teach you to harness the power of these natural golden ratios in order to create successful trades Fibonacci 24-7 is designed to teach the tools you need to identify and act on these undeniable and reoccurring patterns Sign up for Larry's newsletter Fibonacci 24-7 and you will also receive free access to his trading webinar trading strong trending markets Try out Larry's newsletter risk-free all of TFNN's newsletters come with a 30-day money-back guarantee TFNN educating investors What's separating you from the most successful men and women on Wall Street? 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We have the S&P is positive by 16 points right now We have the DAO up 190 the NASDAQ 100 up 33 all the markets in positive territory as we kick off Thursday trading Let's jump over to our man Kevin Hinks every trading day folks fast market at 11 a.m. Eastern time Kevin Hinks Alex coffee the team at TD Ameritrade Network Breaking down the day's market action walking you through hypothetical trade setups trade management rolling defined risk Kevin Hinks. Good morning Good morning, Tommy O'Brien. You know, this is an interesting day. We have sitting up here today at least to start at least as we Start the day it is certainly risk on you've got the dollar down You've got bonds and notes down you've got gold Actually down along with the dollar you got the VIX down you got Bitcoin slightly higher So far the this market looks pretty firm Tommy. I'm watching for the 4413 level on the E-mini that is last Friday's close Tommy That'll wipe out the whole week of losses if we get back to 44 13 We've already been there this morning, but backing off a little bit here pre-opening It is remarkable Kevin. I just put up here to stretch back some of the chart I got an hourly chart, but I just want to kind of go to back It's it's great. You brought it up man to the volatility. We've had since kind of the end of last week You saw that huge acceleration on Friday really Monday Upside Kevin in the S&P's if you count the lows of Monday 42 93 we make it to a price It's a point of 43 95 by Tuesday at four in the morning you trade back down to about 43 20 and Just in the good session another hundred point run from late Tuesday call at 9 p.m. Eastern time the lows after market These are some big bids them some big dip buy-in as they would say we're sitting at 4400 pretty remarkable That you could wipe out the entire run we had for Monday's trading when it looked like Markets were gonna fall out of bed and never catch a bid again Kevin as we know that's not the case always Well, I mean You know the problems in China seem to be dissipating. They're not out of the wood yet, but they seem to be Coming off the catastrophic levels that were rumored on Monday and Jerome Powell did his normal calming of the markets and Portraying the best possible version of the market. He talked about tapering. He talked about it's coming soon He talked about it will probably be done by mid next year But he's not ready to start doing yet till he sees the resolution of the semi-conductor problem And the resolution of the 10.9 million open jobs and the seven and a half million People coming back off of enhanced benefit So I think he needs to see a little more resolution before he's willing to start Taking his foot off the gas pedal now Tommy I think Jerome Powell is a pretty good student of history and what do I mean by that is? The two mistakes that were made in previous Economic downturns was not enough liquidity at the beginning. He's done that right? There was plenty of liquidity in the market when when this pandemic started and then the other big mistake is at the end Cutting it off too early right raising interest rates cutting off the expansion too early And that's what I think he's focused on not doing right now Tommy. I Would agree man, and it's pretty cool how they talk about they're gonna taper the bond bond purchases at asset purchases I think he said he doesn't really want them to coincide with any type of rise in interest rates So right away you're probably gonna push that back and everything's in flux But you're probably gonna push that back like you said to at least the middle of 2022 if that's where they go With the bond and the asset purchases So then we're pushing back almost a full year Kevin where it's even gonna be discussed where interest rates rise and it's so remarkable in terms of trying to make a decision off of where the economy and the jobs and Everything we talk about when we talk to you at 9 15 in the morning man in terms of there's so much up in the air Kevin aware will be at that time that to even say at a minimum is kind of how I look at it right now if chairman Powell's still gonna be chairman which indications look like he will it seems like they're gonna be stuck there in terms of low interest rates at least until that time and then It's up to where we are then and it's like man if if we're still struggling then they're gonna have the ammunition I think to keep him pretty low It just seems like they're gonna be low for a while man, and that's what I'm that's what I got and it seems like that's what The market's getting out here as well Well, I mean certainly that his rhetoric says that he's not gonna cut this rally off early You know he is he is you know, he doesn't mind They've been trying if you think about it Tommy the Fed has been trying to get inflation to 2% or above for how many years? That they failed he's got it up there now, and he's He's committed to let it stay or settle up at or near 2% Going forward. So, you know no matter how it got there He's trying to keep it so this market stays at a good level of growth, and I think that is what he doesn't want to You know put in peril as this market Unleashes because you're gonna have a lot of things Like you know a lot of the headlines are all these ships out in the ports of Miami ports of Long Beach in Los Angeles Well if a lot of workers start coming back into these jobs that should that bottleneck should release a bunch of goods on the market a bunch of supplies and then All the all the labor shortages well if all these people come back to the labor force That's gonna be a good thing if we start getting chips that I'm sure they've been manufacturing over the last several months That should flood chips and cars and autos back into the market. So I just think there's a big Unleashing unwinding of all these bottleneck problems that are hopefully in our near future Tommy Yeah, and it seems like eventually they'll work their way out It's probably a question of like how long that takes not if it happens and it's persisted a little bit longer than some have talked about I mean those chips I saw something about today that car companies might miss out on Two hundred and something billion dollars in sales for the chip problem that they're having some staggering numbers out there man So we got markets in positive territory Kevin go pulling back as you said we got a weekly jobless Initial jobless claims number today Pretty close to in line 350,000 we got some misses of 30,000 or so but that number seems to have settled in between about three to four hundred thousand right now We got some earnings going on Darden was out with their numbers strong numbers Darden trading higher today as they proceed to Just deliver in a big way up to 157. What are you guys going to be talking about on the program coming up at 11 o'clock today, Kevin? We're getting to the end of earnings Tommy and you know what signals it Nike Nike and Costco after the bell today that signals really the unofficial end of earnings season So we'll trade Nike will trade Costco and off we go Tommy You know Nike that's quite a story my dad's been talking about Nike a lot this pullback Nike's had man from 174 We were just touching. What was that low? We had a couple days ago 152 Yeah, 152 32 little bit of a bounce up to 157 and Costco really interesting I'm a Sam's member Kevin pretty close But man this run that Costco has had from 307 in March to 469 just recently we're trading in 452 Remarkable has the world has changed and some of those companies have greatly benefited from the trends that we have changed in our personal lives I love stocking up now, man I've said to people there's no reason that you don't have you know water Kevin That was the one that compounded me the most we're in Florida, right? We're dealing with hurricane season right now One thing I said is you know people should have water stocked up man All that stuff that kind of happened in the in the beginning of the pandemic it kind of showed everybody say hey We take for granted a lot in our life man And so people stocking up in a big way and I imagine that's a trend that's going to continue to some degree Well Kevin we look forward to the show as always man. We'll be listening at 11 o'clock today We appreciate the conversation and the education as always man. You have a great one Thanks for having me on Tommy. Have a great day My pleasure Kevin take care folks tune in every trading day at 11 o'clock you heard it They're gonna be talking Nike and Costco for their earnings today. We'll be right back Are you having fun trading the markets? 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There's your Russell talk about a consolidation talk about well-defined We're going back to February of this year folks the Russell's been chopping around between about 2100 and 2350 Somewhat near the middle of that range right now You take a look at the DAO dipping below that trend line far below it now We're 34,000 370 about 1200 points away from the all-time highs S&Ps. Whoops. Excuse me There's my S&Ps trading at 4405 now. I'm gonna put this on a 30 minute 10 day to see the run that Kevin was talking about now It would be really remarkable folks if you got it all back to Friday Just getting back the action from where we were at the Friday close, right? Would be quite an achievement when you look at the devastation that we had going on on Monday I mean taking a look at the Nasdaq folks you had the cues. I mean, let's take a look at the cues for a second All right, you had the cues down $12 from Friday's close and we just got it all back almost you did get it back Basically on the pre-market when the cues hit a high of one, excuse me 372 26 right now trading 371 remarkable how some of those growth companies move as the multiples of that growth is Kind of recalculated sometimes as the market It's a little volatile jump it over to the VIX right now under 20 yet again VIX and it's remarkable I remember talking to Kevin Hicks. They was Monday. Excuse me Tuesday after the Monday devastation VIX is at 28 79 You know I'm saying to Kevin Hicks. How do you trade an option environment when you have volatility that high yet? You have markets moving that dramatically Well, guess what folks it did not last if you were selling volatility premium Especially if you were selling it with a bullish bias in the market man talk about a pullback pretty quickly from 25 on the VIX on Tuesday morning It's Thursday morning not even 48 hours later or back under 20 at 19 62 in that VIX. All right Let's jump around some of the stories I got up here I talked about it with Kevin Hicks Worsening chip woes to cost automakers 210 billion dollars in sales there you go the cost of Intractable semiconductor shortage has ballooned by more than 90% pushing the total hit to 21 revenue folks. That's this year's revenue for the world's order automakers to almost a quarter Trillion dollars. It's almost difficult to grasp the amount of Impact in the auto industry. That's the latest dire forecast from alex partners which predicts global automakers will build 7.7 million fewer vehicles due to the chip crisis That's almost double what they were looking for on their previous estimate in terms of missing out on 3.9 million vehicles They're now up to almost 8 million fewer vehicles as a result of that chip crisis despite ongoing efforts to shore up the supply chain Semiconductor availability has worsened as automakers exhaust stockpiles and other industries have no none to spare Yeah, the barrel is empty. There's nothing left to scrape. That's how they're putting it Just staggering numbers at the top end there when you're talking about 210 billion dollars As inventory on the dealer's lots has dwindled car prices have skyrocketed. You're talking about how about 43,300 in the US in August. That's a record Supply is so constrained some dealers have resorted to renting cars. So they have something to display in their showrooms This can take some time to sort out folks This is the third estimate that they they've issued this year on the financial impact of the shortage It began in January saying it's going to be 61 billion They lifted that in May to 110 billion and now they've doubled it again. So look at that. I mean in January They had 61 billion. Okay, they doubled that estimate almost in May double would have been 120 They come in at 110 and they doubled it almost again now up to 210 from 110 They can't guarantee them won't be further upward adjustments to the forecast given the myriad of uncertainties Well, that's just plain English, of course but man watch out in that chip sector because you know It's tough to play catch up when everybody wants so many chips that you can barely supply what you have going on let alone Catching up to demand that is sitting there waiting to be caught up to all right jumping over to buy in the dip JP Morgan they're talking about flows show the buy the dip mantra is at risk Blast from me out there folks. My goodness buying the dip is at risk. Don't tell me that I kid But some of the numbers they talk about in here. So how about on Monday? I believe that's gonna be Monday the 20th Correct. Yes, it is Monday 11 billion dollars from equity ETFs exchange traded funds you had an 11 billion dollar outflow of equity exchange traded funds on September 20th. That's the biggest on A down day this year outside of quarterly options and futures expiration They put rather concerning is the quote there because it's inconsistent with the buy the dip behavior that tell propeller equities Hire from months JP Morgan strategist. Jeez. What's can I can I nail that name? I don't think so Nicholas panna? Jeez, I'm not even gonna try that's a tough one. I'll have to look that one up for that gentleman Observing flows for signs that this change in behavior would prove more persistent is important in the coming days Adding that an inflow on September 21st of two billion was rather muted So you get 11 billion pulled out on Monday. You do have Dip buying but you're only getting a two billion edition on the 21st now taking a look at the 21st Okay, there is the 21st on Tuesday Not really a huge dip buying effort there. I mean the dip buying really accelerated kind of Tuesday night Yes, you got the acceleration into the close. I mean look at Monday's action, right? It really started about three o'clock that you got some buying kind of saved itself there It doesn't look like much on this chart folks, but man, you're talking about a three o'clock. You had a low at 42 94 and By the time we came into the close you were trading at almost 43 50 That's almost a 60 point pop in the S&P to end Monday action and then really the run begins like I said We've had two 100 point runs folks in this market So you got the 100 point run from Monday to the highs of Monday You have another hundred point run from the highs Excuse me the lows of Tuesday to the high we just had pre-market right now You all the markets catching a little bit of a bid with the S&P's up 28 points right now remarkable action in a big way All right, let's jump down to some of the stocks that are moving with their own news this morning We talked about Darden restaurants they beat on earnings a buck 76 versus a buck 64 same-store sales And I don't like same-store sales or is a year ago because it's not really fair 47.5% nonetheless Darden though trading higher in a big way up 7.5% on that stock and take a look at that weekly folks It has been a rocket ship since the bottom of $26 and COVID you came into 2020 at a price point of 110 and there's a nice weekly acceleration. I believe that's gonna be is that all-time highs I think it is there you go. We're talking about all-time highs and Darden restaurants there and they do Have seasons 52 Kind of like a healthy menu of food yet a high-end restaurant They serve wine they have a nice atmosphere yet. They've tailored the menu to healthy eating I remember the first time I saw one of those restaurants in Tampa. I said, this is a brilliant concept You know, you have high-end dining with the focus on healthy eating at first season 52 There I think every meal they did was 475 calories or less and I remember sitting at the bar talking to the bartender said How do they do this man because some of those meals consist of a filet with mashed potatoes and veggies? Well, the key was folks no milk and no cream. That was how they did it Still delicious food if you ever get a chance to check it out in a big way All right, we'll go jump down the line folks. We got other stocks moving this morning. We got sales force trade and hire We're gonna take a look at some of those equities when we get back We got the markets accelerating higher as well as some keys up 33 points. See you folks up here right back Are you in the market for buying or selling real estate in the Bay Area? 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We're pushing the highs of pre-market at 44 22 right now Let's jump around to some of the equities that are moving today. You have sales for us I believe they got an upgrade today. They're up 4.2 percent No, no, excuse me. They revised their outlook. Let me get this up to do raise their full year 2022 revenue guidance Higher than the company's previous estimates So raising their guidance for sales force. They are higher. Oh, Roku was the one that received an upgrade They are higher as well Roku right now Trading up 3.3 percent as well at 335 and I'm gonna jump over to a Bloomberg opinion piece Okay, it's an opinion piece folks, but I tend to agree with it and it's written by an O'Brien So why not Timothy O'Brien not familiar? Disney built a new Magic Kingdom in sports betting the company may be wagering that the line between football and gambling will inevitably be a race That's already happening folks. It's done Disney's gonna be there They're one of the reasons why I'm a Disney bull as well You have the strongest sports brand in the world in ESPN probably imagine when you have an ESPN Sports betting app that has all of the content. You're able to bet in it. The lines are shown That's where the future is going folks It is Florida's trying to pass sports betting right now the amount of money that the states are able to get from that happening And it's a long time coming folks if you want to bet on sports There's bookies that have been everywhere man. We're from from Boston. You want to talk about bookies in Boston? So it makes sense they legalize it they regulate it and the states make the money from it All they've talked about so far was potentially maybe licensing the deals They've currently already done it but one of the things that they said yesterday or this week when you had the CEO out there of Disney Bob Chappick he talked about that There were gonna be some woes that they had to proceed with in terms of not quite the growth They were looking for this quarter on Disney plus But one of the things they said is that they're ready really to step into The gambling side of things and the potential over there is endless folks I mean taking a look at some of these companies that have been in gambling You want to take a look at some some rises and falls in terms of the volatility potential pen national They're the ones that own barstool sports as well You start off 2020 at about $22 your rise to 142 market got a little bit ahead of itself in a big way You're back to 75 but some of these companies folks in a big way and the MGM has their gambling going in a big way They have a lot more going than that of course But trading higher as well and the other one I want to talk about real quick is canopy growth Now some of these cannabis stocks Maybe this is where we start to catch a bid looks like nothing on this chart because man It's been a max pain situation Reddit got involved early in the year pushed this thing up to 5650 remarkable We give it all back folks from the run we had in October. You have a low there this a weekly of 1410 Okay, the weekly we're just dealing with right now is 1335. We're back at 1472 the last couple days We finally caught a little bit of a bid all right look at yesterday's action We're training 1360 today. We're up another 4% put that on your radar folks If you're looking for long term might be a nice area to step into that Not often that you get the type of opportunity to get it all back in terms of the run we've had now That's a three-year weekly. Let's go back five years. I mean look at this We're almost going back to two full runs right remarkable Let alone almost three full runs in some of these stocks But nonetheless you give it all back We're right back out to this breakout area folks that we had from October of last year It'd be interesting to see if we trade even below that Doesn't make a lot of sense to trade to the COVID lows of $9 on this equity But man, we are close but we're seeing a little bit of strength for the first time in some of those cannabis equities Right out of the gate yesterday in a big way trading higher and trading higher extending those gains today up 4.3 percent for canopy all right jumping around to some of the other stocks that we talk about moving We talked about Salesforce. We talked about Roku and Darden blackberry out with their numbers a Better than expected. Let's see how they're trading blackberry good old blackberry trying to reinvent themselves. There you go They're up 10% today take a look at this chart on a daily Yeah, be careful of this one right talk about some some accelerations and some give backs This is just going back a year folks early in the air. You spike to 28 77 later in the year You spike to 20 now we've had some reddit runs in here always possible. You're up a 10% today on their numbers But man, they have a long way to go to kind of rejuvenate that company Report a loss of six cents a share market was looking for a loss of seven cents revenue 175 million market was looking for 164 million They got a long way to go as I said now speaking of giving it all back. I'm gonna jump down to Biogen real quick I was looking at this earlier. Okay, be IIB Biogen I'm gonna put this on a three-year weekly to see the run now Biogen gets an upgrade today. Let's see Let's see the stock rose no need of initiated coverage of the stock with a buy rating second to note to clients that the company's controversial Alzheimer's drug Will be a big seller for the company in the long term There's been controversy surrounding this drug to say the least But which is what is remarkable is you've given it almost all back from when they got that ruling approving it You ended the week prior at 291 About you at a high of 291 And just like that we're trading at 296 obviously 468 probably not a fair price. We put it on a daily But man, this thing was above 400 for a week or two before you really started to give it up We've seen another give up so they got an upgrade if you look in long term that may be an avenue, uh, you know can't Can't argue with getting a price under 300 after this thing as skyrocket Especially when you look at this chart because 300 on this chart seems pretty fair Concerned to some of the volatility that we've seen all revolving around this drug in particular Man, this market it just does not stop folks We got to jump back to the s&p's because we are getting it all back just like that Markets above the pre-market high and just like that folks forget Monday ever happened because we've gotten it all back by Thursday at 949 in the morning This market is relentless is the term. Look at the dial getting it all back dial 34,532 You're up more than a thousand points from the lows of Monday NASDAQ 15,268 Let's take a look at some of the commodities as gold trading lower down 26 dollars right now We'll jump to notes and bonds kind of hanging out where we started the show the 10 year negative by about 10 ticks right now All right, let's jump down the line to some of the other companies We got uh, I wanted to talk about kb homes. They were trading higher in the pre-market Let's see if they're holding on to those gains. They'd quarter the earnings of buck 60 on revenue of 1.47 million The market was looking for a buck 62 on revenue of 1.57 Interesting. They were trading lower higher though pre-market on both of those and there it is trading up three percent So they got more going on Then their numbers there's the acceleration on kind of a miss But maybe they got some outlook in there as kb homes trading higher this morning up about three percent on their numbers last night And let's jump around to some of the stocks that I like out there. Disney speaking of up 1.2 percent They fall out of bed on tuesday on the announcement from their ceo that their numbers coming up Excuse me folks, uh, I'm gonna miss kind of on subscriber growth in and what they're looking for But disney back to 175 77 right now Excuse me grab a little water We'll jump to uber which had quite an acceleration to the upside on tuesday and uber up another percent today With the market on their numbers. All right, folks.  Stay tuned folks. We'll be right back Sharpening your skills as an investor is like getting better at playing a musical instrument You have to practice sure, but you also need excellent instruction from experts at tfnn You'll get advice and guidance from the authority and technical market analysis And it's not just dry tedious text either tfnn airs live financial content streamed live on tfnn.com And tfnn's youtube channel with tiger tv live every market day from 8 30 a.m. To 4 p.m. Eastern for free Each host is an experienced trader and gives their take on the market while taking calls and questions live from around the world From the moment the market opens until the closing bell sounds tiger tv has eight different shows with expert hosts To help you make the right moves with your money Watch online at tfnn.com or on tfnn's youtube channel and become the investor you were born to be tfnn educating investors Our kids can rise and fall like the tides Subscribe to basal chapman's newsletter the opening call and you too can ride the wave Basal Chapman is an authority in technical analysis His Chapman wave trading system has been helping traders identify trends and capitalize on momentum in the markets since 1984 tfnn invites you to test basal's proprietary Chapman wave trading methodology with a monthly subscription to the opening call newsletter for only $149 Your subscription to the opening call comes with a 30 day money back guarantee as well as daily market updates on key indexes stocks and commodities Ride the wave sign up for the opening call risk-free today Are you looking for a secured investment which pays you on a monthly basis? 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That's<PHONE_NUMBER> This segment is brought to you by think or swim for more information Just click the think or swim banner on the front page of tfnn.com Welcome back folks and talk about strength in the market. We are the s and p's up 1.1 percent right now Folks, you're up 46 points trending at 44 29 You are 137 points above the lows that we had on Monday You get the nasdaq 100 charging higher as well up 8 tenths percent You could say the nasdaq is lagging even up 8 tenths percent the dow is up 1.2 percent right now The russell up more than a full percent as well Let's jump over the vixx as we get a positive market the vixx now under 19 We're at 1878. We give it all back from friday's action man If you're trading that vixx and you're fortunate to get any of these runs that we got like we got on monday folks Or even like we got on fright. Excuse me on friday You got to be willing to take money off the table and some of those trades because the vixx just gives it up Just like that no matter how high it goes You take a look at the vixx on a weekly Let's put it back on a five-year daily and just zoom in on the action We've had some of those highs those spikes do not last long But man this one really gave it back quickly back to 18 79 on the volatility index We'll jump to some of the commodities gold continue in the slide to negative prices right now with gold 1751 the lows of sunday night 1742 on that gold contract and we're talking about a yield right now Correlating to 1.37 percent over in europe right now Positive prices the dax up a percent cap roll up 1.1 over in asia Nikkei down two thirds percent shanghai up four tenths Hang saying up 1.2 percent right now. Let's jump around to some of the fang stocks as we wrap it up You get amazon Up four ten percent so far apple shares Up four tenths percent as well microsoft shares jumping around up about two tenths percent And we'll jump to tesla as we finish up the program with tesla shares Catching a bid up about a third of percent as well All right, folks should be an interesting day in the market. Stay tuned. We got to replay this hour But it's basil. He did his program live folks at 8 a.m. This morning So you're going to see him coming up right now at 10 o'clock Of course, we got fast market at 11 o'clock. They're going to be talking about nike They're going to be talking about cosco. Nike's up 1.7 percent ahead of their numbers this morning cosco Up about two thirds percent nike. Let's take a look real quick as we wrap up the program nike looking for about a $9 move Expected on their numbers Thanks so much for starting your day with me folks s and p's up 49 stay tuned We got basil up next live programming coming up after that. Have a great thursday everybody


So many people are worried these days about being canceled. I have news for you. You cannot cancel the one who God has called. You can't do it. If God called you, they can say what they want. They can speak against you. They can slander you. They can petition and they can complain. But if God has called you, no one can stop you.


Hello everyone. My name is Davide. I'm a production engineer at Meta on the Linux user space team. This talk is about what we're doing with ELN and how we're using to test upgrades on the production fleet at Meta. The agenda for today will start with a quick introduction about what ELN is and how it's made. We'll talk about what we're specifically doing with it at Meta, what we got out of it, and how you can get involved and maybe get some value out of it as well. So, without further ado, ELN stands kind of our enterprise Linux next. There is an explanation of the puns in the name on the website that I will not try to repeat. It is a continuously variable of raw hide using the CentOS macros and toolchain. So, the idea is that every day we take Fedora raw hide as it is today. We rebuild it using the same macros that would be used as if we were cutting a new CentOS train train today and we put the compose out. So, you can take it and use it and you get a preview of what CentOS train would look like if we were starting today. It is part of the development process for stream and for rel and it is used for this ongoing process. That's the link to the documentation. I'll add the slides on the website later so you don't need to worry about the links. So, here's how the sausage is made more or less. Development work happens in raw hide all the time. Raw hide is continuously rebuilt into ELN. ELN is used to test how these changes will look like in the future CentOS train release. At some point next month-ish, I believe, the first branching for stream will occur and at that point we will have a new set of branches and a new set of repos and everything and that will be stream 10 and then stream 10 will be stabilized and then eventually we'll have rel 10 and so on. By the way, if you're wondering about the colors, this slide comes from an older presentation. I gave the orange boxes because those are all things you can actually contribute to and work on if you would like. You contribute to rel unless you actually work at reddit, which I do not. So, how this actually works is that the composites are made using something called the ODCS, which is the on-demand compose service, which is a thing that is able to make distribution composites and put them online so people can consume them. The package itself is defined in the content resolver, which was an offshoot of the federal minimization project that is still developed. If you go on tiny distro builders, you can see the actual package set and play with it and slice and dice it. That's a picture I took yesterday that gives you an idea. You can also see kind of the absent flows in this. As we get closer to the branch point, you can notice this is getting lower because I guess folks are realizing they don't really want to maintain stuff long term for 10 years, so they're chopping it out, which seems reasonable to me. Now, this is just for ELN itself, which is what will end up in CentroStream NRL. Most people, I would say, do not run just that. They need additional packages that they generally get from Apple. To test those, we came up with something called ELN extras. The idea of building ELN extras is an additional set of packages that are composed together with ELN, but they're not going to be part of ELN itself. It still kind of influx how we're going to do this, but the general idea is that we will use this set of packages to bootstrap Apple 10 so we can get a headstart there and try to make life a bit easier, both for users and for packages. This is also defined in content resolver. You can look it up there. You can actually contribute your definitions here, so if you maintain packages in a Pell and would like to get started or have them ready for Apple 10, you can put up a PR against that GitHub project. There's a little YAML file you have to fill in, and your packages will end up getting continuously rebuilt in ELN. Now, of course, this means you sign up for maintaining them, so if they break, you will need to fix them, but you'll need to fix them eventually anyway. Again, that's the package set. This work is coordinated by the ELN SIG, which is a Fedora SIG. We hang out in Matrix and in IRC. While ELN is primarily a thing that is happening on Fedora and Red Hat infrastructure and uses a lot of internal components, work on the project is by no means restricted to folks that work at Red Hat. You're welcome to join and hang out there. There's regular meetings on Friday, where it's discussed. These meetings are also good to hang out if you're curious on what's going to happen in Strain 10 down the road. I'll talk about this later, but this has been very useful, for example, to get ideas, features that might be coming down the road that you'd want to know about if you actually run this in production. And here's a link on details about the SIG itself. So much for the intro. Let's talk about what we're doing with this in Meta. Before I do that, a quick primer on the infrared meta. You might have heard Meta has a lot of machines. We have millions of servers. These servers, these are all physical machines running in data centers across the world. They all run CentOS stream right now. We always run CentOS. We started with CentOS Linux. Well, I started in 2012 and we were running CentOS Linux 5 back then. We went through several major release transitions. So we went from 5 to 6, 6 to 7, Linux 7 to Strain 8. We just about finished in now Strain 8 to Strain 9. I was very happy to discover last month that we got rid finally of the last CentOS Linux 7 host, so we don't have those anymore in production. So that's nice. So I could put 20-22 on that line. I expect we'll be done. We'll probably have a long tail of 8 stuff at the end of the year, but we should be mostly done with it by the end of the year. Right now, we're at 86% on 9. This is some containers on 8. Actually, 8 is the majority on containers, but containers are comparatively easier, I would say. And for contests, whenever we do this migration, we are provisioning the whole fleet. We don't do in place updates for production systems. So this is wiping the machinery, installing, which is fairly expensive, as you might imagine. Now, our customers don't love these upgrades, because they're kind of expensive, because you're wiping their machines. They have to spend time qualifying the distribution. Usually, the way this has worked in the past is that the new CentOS Strain release drops. We start working on it. We put it out. We will play with it. We find some major issue that delays everything by six months, because that's how it works. It's absolutely normal. When you have a large deployment, it's pretty common to end up having to deal with these things. With 9 in particular, the Shawan deprecation ended up being a fairly sizable annoyance, because we had a lot of packages that predated that, that had to be rebuilt. We also had a lot of packages coming from external vendors that, shall we say, questionable packaging practices that required a lot of work. So in general, we had been looking at ways to make this process better and more streamlined. When we did 9, I actually started working on this, started working from the very first beta that came out, and that helped quite a bit, because we could get a head start, since the, basically, since branching time. But you still get kind of surprises, because while if you follow Fedora, you kind of know what will probably end up, because you know where it's branching from, it's hard to tell until it drops. The way we do this better is if we could start this earlier, and that's kind of where ELN comes in for us. The idea with ELN is using it so that we can streamline bring up of major rest releases. Turn this from a thing that we have to do at qualification time when a new major release drops, to a thing that we do all the time. So we can continuously validate what's going to come down the pipe, find issues as they come up. When something comes up, we can either figure out internally if it's we that we fucked up, and fix it, or if it's something that we have to discuss with the community, because maybe there's a better solution that can help everyone. It also allows us to identify policy changes early on. Things that will come in the distribution that might impact us, since they've been deprecated, new things that are coming up. And because this is a continuous effort, and because we started long before, it's a much more pleasant experience for customers, because instead of having to deal with, oh, all my packages don't install anymore, and I have a month to fix it, now it's all my packages don't install anymore, but this isn't a production system. Maybe I have a year to fix it. It's much nicer. People are a lot happier when you tell them they have a year to fix it, and they can sort of sort it out to their own leisure. And long at home, we like to have an actual CI platform where we continuously roll out ELN on production systems for some value of production, so that every customer with different workflows can get a sense of what's going to come in down the pipe and do this validation at their own pace. Now, to do this, we started actually bringing up ELN in our infrastructure, and bringing up ELN is about the same effort as bringing up a new center stream release. So this was broken down into getting the repos, hooking them up into our update pipeline, adding them to our config planning system, which is Chef, actually provisioning and building provisioning, medium provisioning machine, and then deploying it and qualifying. And pretty much every step here involved fixing bugs, mostly on our end. So starting from repos, the repos come from ODCS, as I mentioned. There's the daily-ish snapshot, or weekly-ish, depending on when it's got the shows up there. We didn't particularly want to scrape that with WGAD-R, because that seemed kind of bad. So we worked with Infra, folks at Fedora, to get an Arsync endpoint exposed from there, so we could mirror it using Arsync. And now we have these exposed on our public mirror, so if you want to access that, and you don't want to hammer the Fedora servers, you can use the mirror on the face with the net. I believe we see that daily-ish, so it should be reasonably up-to-date. But we don't consume that directly internally. We actually snapshot it via another process that we talked about in a minute called runningOS updates. Now, this is only for the base repos, but of course there's also a Pell. So for a Pell, we use the ELN extras that I mentioned before. So we started populating two workloads in ELN extras, one for packages that we maintain as part of the CentOS Hyperscale SIG, which is where we do most of our upstream work within the CentOS project, and another workload for packages that are really specific to Meta, that we felt it would be easy to have all in one place to keep track of. You can look this up, I put the screenshot here so you can see roughly the volume. The giant jump was when I started testing development systems, which have a lot of random packages on them, so I ended up adding a few dozens there. That's what this looks like for, and these are all packages that we'll be maintaining then in Apple 10, or at least assisting to maintain, because we're not the primary maintainers on all of these, obviously. Now, once we have the repos, we have to hook them up into our base pipeline. I won't talk about runningOS updates in detail here. I talked about this in other talks, and it's not terribly interesting, because it's fairly internal to Meta, but the idea is that for CentOS stream, we snapshot the production repos of stream every two weeks. We roll them out on the fleet across two weeks. We do this via Chef, and effectively, Chef will update the DNF.com from the machine and run the DNF upgrade, and it just works, more or less. When it doesn't work, people get tickets and fix it. In the case of ELN, this process is much easier, to some extent, because we just made a release train called ELN, which is going to be continuously updated. We snapshot it every day initially, because that made it easy to eat very quickly, and later every week. We don't really care about in-place updates for ELN, because what we really care about testing is the provisioning and the initial bring up. We don't particularly care about testing updates from one ELN from yesterday to ELN from today, so we just stopped out of the test for that and automatically promote all the snapshots, and this basically works. The only caveat here is that ELN composes can be broken, because we publish all composites regardless of state, so we need to filter for only composites that are tagged as finished. Otherwise, you end up trying to roll out something that is missing three quarters of the distribution. Also, ELN Extras workflows can fail. They can fail, for example, if you add a package that doesn't build. When the workflow fails, the entire workflow is excised from the compose, which is obviously bad. Right now, we just keep an eye on it, but I need to actually write monitoring, so we do the same thing and validate them before pulling them in. Okay, now we have very close. We need to do the config management side. The config management side is fairly straightforward, with one caveat. ELN is odd in that it really is Fedora. It identifies itself as FedoraOI. If you cat, et cetera, what's really is this FedoraOI. The only way you can tell it's ELN is because it has variants set to ELN. However, everything else about it is sent us, and we really want to validate it as if it were sent us. What we ended up doing was something horrible, which was adding logic to detect ELN based on the variant ID and then monkey patching it so that it actually looked like sent us. In our Chef code, we have methods that if not sent us, and those we return through on ELN. Do not do this. This is a terrible idea. We did this because it worked for what we were trying to do, but not something I would recommend in general. After that, it was just the usual loop of testing it on a machine iterating, finding there's all these packages missing, and adding it to ELN extras, or all this logic is hard coding sent nine, but we can actually just flip the gate and make it hard code eight, because it's just a negative thing, things like that. Our open source code books are there. There isn't much that's ELN specific in there, but I put the link in case you're interested. If you use Puppet or Ansible or anything else, I expect it would be roughly similar. Frankly, I expected this to be a major pain, and it turned out to be very straightforward. Now, we have conflict management that we want to do provisioning. Provisioning and meta is complicated. To sidestab the issue, and because there's a circular dependency that you need Chef to have provisioning working, and vice versa, because the provisioning images are built with Chef, but you need machines to be able to test that Chef is working. We did another horrible thing, which was converting in place existing sent us from nine hosts to ELN with ENF Distar sync. To my surprise, this actually works. Not only it works, but it produces systems that still boot. Initially, I expected to do this and then throw the machines away, but they still booted afterwards with minor, minor caveats. And I would not do this in production. It is a terrible idea, but it worked very well for development because I was able to take development systems, convert them in place, iterate quickly on the Chef stuff, and then later, when the Chef stuff was sorted out, get the provisioning images going, and then we could provision machines from scratch. The provisioning system uses an internal thing that is in particular useful outside of meta, but basically, they're just images that get dropped onto machines, as you might expect. The images are continuously delivered and tested. So the provisioning system will build the image, try to install a bunch of machines with it, and then tag it if it's good or not good. Right now, we're at the point where we're effectively in feature parity with nine. We actually were able to reflect quite a bit of this logic to make it saner and better support future distributions. After that, it's just a matter of testing. So we started using, we have a small set of machines we call kernel test that we use for doing kernel and hardware enablement work, which is very handy for these things because it doesn't run anything. So you just have to get the base OS working. So we got that going, and that took care of most of the basic Chef stuff. Then we switched to doing the development servers. The development servers are great because nobody cares if your own development server is broken. There's no services running on it except your editor. But they have a ton of packages on it because they have to support all possible work cases from building the Android operating system to doing God knows what. So these are very useful finding packages that were missing. We didn't need it to add to Elan extras. We didn't quite know. Also, we were able to work with the folks that maintain the systems to discuss, oh, this thing you're doing here, maybe you should rethink it because it will probably break in the future. So this is kind of where we're at now. Right now, I'm working to expanding this to the container platform systems, which is the ones that I was actually entertaining talking since the start, because that's where the product, most of production actually runs. And those will give us a good measure of whether this will actually work long term. And also, the container system has extensive unit tests that should be able to tell us when things break very quickly. So let's talk about what we got out of this. Took about four months to go from nothing to have been provisioning working. This isn't four months of like has done work. This is four months of like spending time on this, but also doing other work. I suspect if you were speedrunning this, you could probably do it in half time. We now have some dozens of systems running on ELN. I can't say exact numbers for reasons, but it's not a huge amount. I expect this will expand in probably low thousands at some point. I don't think we'll ever have a large deployment of this because it doesn't really make sense, and because these machines will effectively not be doing useful production work. We have started conversational wider deployments because at this stage, what I would like to see is different product owners at Facebook to start trying this out and evaluating, so say, the database folks can use this to help the qualification for the databases in the future and so on and so forth. We've also began preparing for since 2010 because the work we were able to do with ELN made us aware of changes that might be coming in 10 that we should start thinking about. We're also able to start testing things like the NF5 because ELN is built from Fedora. It has the NF5, so we can actually install it and play with it and test it and start integrating it. Changes that have been deployed and discussed as part of ELN can also be integrated and discussed internally. There's discussions ongoing if you look at the meeting meeting youth for previous ELN meetings. There were discussions about, for example, dropping 32-bit packages. That's something that I was very happy to know I had a time because I can start talking to the people that use them. Then, of course, we found bugs and we fixed bugs. I will give you a few examples.  There were all that weird invalid OpenGPG signature. You might know that RPM for 18 ships with Sequoia, which swapped the entire OpenGPGP implementation, we want that actually works. Notably, these validate packages and make sure the packages are actually compliant. It turns out our internal signing service was using a Golang library and the Golang library was generating invalid signatures by design. Literally, if you read through the comments, it says we know this is broken, we don't care. That wasn't ideal. Luckily, we found out that the Protomail folks at a fork of this library that was actually compliant. We swapped it in. This fixed our signing service, but, of course, we had all of the existing packages that now had to be fixed. We had to wait for a few mass rebuild cycles. We still have a long tail of these because not everything is auto-rebuilt, but it's at the point that it's manageable at least. If you have your own signing implementation, I highly recommend making sure this is not happening. Also, maybe don't use Golang. Now, this isn't all the fun we had with Sequoia. After we had the packages, we installed a system from scratch, and we saw our key wasn't importing. Now, you might remember I mentioned in stream nine, the policy this allows Sha Wang. It turns out RPM never validated the key at all. When you imported the signing key on nine, it imported just fine, even if it was signed with Sha Wang. Probably, even if it was signed with MD5, I suspect. This is a problem. It turns out the key was not actually valid. We were using a very old, well, it wasn't an old key. It was a key that was kept updated, but they kept signing with Sha Wang for reasons. We fixed that, and then it was fine. There's actually a very handy tool that I got packaged into a Pell for this. That was already in Fedora, that's part of Sequoia, and I branched for a Pell because as you hear in Glinter, you can feed it a key, and it will tell you in human readable form what is wrong with it. It also has a fixed option where if you have the private key for the key, and it's an actual private key, not an HSM or something, you can just fix it and spit out a fixed key. That can be handy if you're your own key. If you have an HSM, you will need to work with your security folks on how to fix this. You may want to talk to your vendors about this. I audited hours. I would say at least 50% of repos that we were consuming were invalid, and most of these folks, when I talked to them, they had no idea what I was talking about, and it took quite a bit of effort to make people aware that this was actually an issue, and they should do something about it. Also, if you're resigning your key, make sure you don't actually invalidate your key, because otherwise, upgrades will be very painful for users, which actually happened with at least one vendor from what I can tell. Okay, enough about RPM. The other fun thing was Utilinus. So, ROI ships with the very latest Utilinus 239, which is a lot of fun features. It also had a couple of regressions that we managed to hit. One was easy. They changed the option parsing for NSenter. NSenter has some bespoke logic for option parsing. That changed lightly where you had to pass equal something instead of just doing option value. Okay, we fixed it. That wasn't a big deal, I would say. That was also easy to work around. The more fun one was the mount API. There's the blog post that explains the mount API. We discovered this when I started provisioning machines that they never came up, and I would go on console and see a slew of error coming from system D. And then when I finally managed to find where the console password is, I would get in and see that the root file system was read only. And if you passed RW on boot, it would find, but it would, for the life of me, I couldn't get it to remount, and if you try to remount manually, you'll get inbound back. Turns out, there is a bug in Utilinus that if you're running an old kernel, it doesn't quite detect that the mount API is fucked, so it should use the old one. Funnily enough, I was talking to Edam the other day, and this was actually independently discovered in Rohe, thanks to OpenQA. But we don't run OpenQA for ELN, so on ELN, this leaps through. This is fixed in Utilinus, by the way. I think I put up a PR to backport it in Fedora. I don't know if that got merged, but I'm sure it will get sorted out quickly there anyway. But this is a good example of something that we were able to catch quickly, and get sorted out in a way that is hopefully beneficial for everyone. There's also a couple of other things I wanted to mention. By the nature of how ELN is built, it is 98% like CentOS, but not exactly like CentOS.  In this case, we found that ODD was installed using the Fedora role set and not the Rally role set, because there just wasn't any logic in the package for this. I guess when it was branched for nine, the maintainer probably branched it and then just updated the CentOS side of it and never backported the changes. So that was easy. Put up PR to the conditional. We only noticed it because in Chef, we disabled ODD, and the way you disable it is different depending on whether it's the Fedora or the CentOS role set. The more interesting one was SystemD. So you might know the SystemD STC called Presets that defines what services will start up on boot, on first boot when you install the package. So you will tell you when you're installing this package should the service be enabled or disabled by default. The presets from Fedora and the presets from CentOS are very different, because the use cases for these distributions are different. ELN uses the Fedora presets. So you might want to keep an eye on this if you deploy this. The way we found this out is because Fedora explicitly disabled SystemD NetworkD, which we want to explicitly enable instead, and we never actually did that. We just, because there was no preset for it, it would get enabled by default in our case. So that's something that caught up by surprise. I don't think there's, we've discussed this with the SIG, there's not quite clarity right now on how this is going to be handled on the, on the CentOS claim side after branching. I expect this will probably keep deviating, because that's not really a good way to, to manage them. But that's something else you should probably be aware of. All right. So what can you do with this? Well, as I said, CentOS and Ten will be branching soon. There is a thread on the belt that I would encourage you to read that talks about the plan, how, how the branching is going to happen, when it's going to happen, how this will work out. You also have about two weeks to get a system by changing Fedora, if you would like. And getting a system by changing Fedora now has a higher chance of it maybe ending up in CentOS stream. Definitely a higher chance of having to do less paperwork than later. Because once it branches, it's a lot harder to get changes into stream for obvious reasons. But also if you maintain anything that runs on stream or on rail, and you would like to get a head start, this is a good time to start playing with ELN and trying it out. It's also a good time because once stream 10 is fully branched, ELN will transition to 11. And we'll, we'll be able to start doing this all over again. As I said, you can join the SIG, the SIG Hangouts on Matrix and on, and on IRC. The channels are bridged. If you maintain packages in a Pell, you can contribute them to extras. That's a link to the ELN website in general that has information and details about the project. The documentation itself is on GitHub, as is most of the code that controls the build itself. And the Fedora minimization work and counter resolver is what actually controls the set of packages that you can find there. And I would be happy to answer any questions. Yes. Yes, that would be very helpful. And the question was, we found this out because we didn't run OpenQN ELN and whether that would be helpful. And yes, it would be very helpful. So, I think in general testing composites would be useful. Which test, which set of tests, I think is something we would need to, yeah, we would need to sit down and figure out. I don't know if doing the same test that we do for ROI is useful. I expect a lot would fail just because it's a very different system. So, maybe looking at what kind of tests are done as part of qualifying stream and ELN on the other side of the house and seeing if it makes sense to pour those to OpenQA, maybe. That could be interesting to look at. Any other questions? Yes. Oh, yes. I meant to add this, but I didn't know where to slot it in. Yes, there is support. There are shows for ELN. There is also support for a packet to build against ELN. Yeah. So, what we actually do is for our open source projects, we use packet to get continuous bills and signals so that when folks in internal land changes, they won't break the open source bills. And we built this in copper for all the releases, including ELN for packages branched to a Pell. That works really well. So, it depends. There are ISOs. How do you install ELN was the question. So, there are ISOs that you could theoretically use. I have never tried them. What I would do is the like DNF install route process that you use normally to build images or you can use your favorite image builder. Then who is there, landed support for building ELN images in MKOSI the other week. So, that's an option. I believe they should work with any other image builder. It should work with you, we probably do. Yeah. But yeah, in general, I think this will depend a lot on what you want to do with it. Any other questions? So, that was the question I actually had. And that's where the discussion started. The question is whether we could fix the preset issue by providing a federal ELN release package with the real presets. The problem is that we don't know what the real presets will be. Because you can't just blank use the ones from nine because it's different enough. And my understanding is that the way these presets have developed as part of stream is that they start from the right ones and then over time they get morphed into the new ones. You could just start with the ones here at nine and then they get adjusted. I would be in favor of having something because it would make my life easier. I think it's definitely something we can revisit. This would be a good argument to discuss in one of the next sick meetings. Yeah. The advantage that we have of course every once in a while is that we can look at what conflicts changed. But perhaps you could have somebody that or a bot that every time that we set the change in the Fedora package open an issue on the ELN package so that people actually take a look at the change and decide what to do. I think that's a great idea. Yeah. And to repeat for the stream, the proposal was that we have a process where whenever there's changes to the package in ROI an issue is filed to see if the corresponding change is meaningful for ELN and for the future stream as well. I think that's a great idea and it's probably something we should look at. Yes, Neil says that's probably meaningful only if the package is forked. I don't think so because you might have packages where you want a service to be enabled in Fedora but not in stream because it's not supported because it's not part of the default set. You had a question back there. So I haven't seen breakage from this just yet. I expect I will at some point. I knew about this change because it came up in the last meeting and to repeat for the stream, there's a change in ELN where it will use x86 64 bit as the baseline for x86 and this will cause breakage because anything older than as well I believe, don't quote me on that, will stop working. Anything, any hardware that is older than a certain GPU generation which is probably has well will stop working. So we haven't seen breakage from this in production yet because the systems I was testing this on were all fairly new. I did start inventing stuff. I don't have hard data on this but I am fairly sure we would see some breakage from this and this is something we will need to deal with. Yeah, I think there's a long enough window though between now and when stream 10 and real time would be released that I expected it should be less painful than it looks like now, hopefully. Yes, that should be. Well, I think it should be changing sooner than later. Certainly it will change in ELN. I hope it will also change in all of it. It's not so easy but I'm pretty sure it will change in ELN and also one interesting change is that even if you go by default until QF7.2, there was maybe a support so there was no way to do it with the unicode generator but now it's implemented so right now if you don't use KVM or you cannot use KVM, you can actually run ELN with the support of VMS. Yep, and to summarize for the stream, one area that's impacted by these is VMS because KVM right now by default uses, Kimu uses an unsupported asset that's older than V3 but that is getting at rest and should get backported to our right as well hopefully. Yeah, by me we should have tests for a lot of things but yes, I don't disagree there. I haven't done much testing on the Retrolegation stack so I don't have signal on my end on this. I was going to talk to the Retrolegation folks on my side to see if they could hook this up in whatever they do. Sure, we'll do. Thank you. Anything else? Going once? Going twice? All right, thank you very much.