Thanks for that introduction, Chris, and thanks for the opportunity to be with you today to talk about the First Nation Infrastructure Institute. And I can see the attendees, I can't believe there's 250 folks that are keen on attending this. That's a lot of people, and I appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule to learn about this. I do think it's a really important initiative with the potential to improve the lives for a lot of people. But I also know there's lots of things happening. I think Dr. Bonnie is doing her press conference right now, so you could all be doing different things. So I do really do appreciate you taking the time to listen in today. Today from the shared territory of Musqueam, Swarmish, and Slovakia patients. I'm here at the Aselon in North Vancouver. I am a Swarmish Nation member. As Chris mentioned for the last couple of years anyway, I have been doing a lot of work with this initiative on the First Nation Infrastructure Institute. And I got started with this initiative when former Chief Manny Jules, the Chief Commissioner of the Tax Commission, asked me if I want to get involved and help out. And it didn't take me very long at all to say of course I would like to help out anything to do with infrastructure I think would be a really helpful idea. The reason that I think that is partly due to my experience with my own community, Swarmish. Our community has a housing shortage and we have a lot of numbers who would like to live in the community who don't have the opportunity right now. We don't have enough land on the North Shore to be able to house people at least not in the same density that we're doing. And so one of the initiatives that has been undertaken over the last, well, 10, 15 years was to acquire some more land in the Swarmish Valley. And the nation did that. But in the course of doing that, there's a lot of due diligence that had to be done. And what I began to learn is that the land costs were actually relatively small in comparison to the infrastructure costs to service lots for housing for members. So I recognized, you know, even a nation relatively strategically located with opportunities to generate its own revenue provision was significant. And the challenges of providing that were significant. And, you know, we see this situation with many nations I think across the country. So I have been working with the Institute as I mentioned, you know, the problems I think with with indigenous infrastructure have been well documented with many studies and reports. We know it takes too long to do projects to build them. They cost too much, and they don't last very long. And the result of that is that we have a so called infrastructure gap difference between infrastructure levels we see offers are compared to the infrastructure we see on reserve. And that gap has been quantified in a number of different studies in the tens of billions of dollars, you know, when we think of it across the country. I think I think the pandemic has actually, you know, exacerbated or laid bare I guess that the extent of that infrastructure gap. Today we're able to connect through this webinar software and fortunately I have access to high speed internet and, you know, that's not always the case for all communities across the country. And even the basic infrastructure course we take for granted maybe a water and wastewater. These things aren't at the standards it should be. And so the idea behind the infrastructure Institute is really to support nations that are interested in, you know, maybe doing a bit of a different approach to developing infrastructure projects to close that gap. And to do it in a way that where nations can assert their, their jurisdiction over their, their infrastructure. So, really, the first nation infrastructure Institute the idea is to be added to the fiscal management act and to work with those other institutes were actually fortunate to have this tax commission located the head office located in cows. BC development fees right now. So we haven't been established yet. But what we've been doing is developing the framework, the proposed amendments to the fiscal management act that would help establish the first nation infrastructure Institute. In the meantime, while we're developing those amendments and looking to have it established. We have been doing what we call proof of concept projects. And we're material that chip was a kettle and stone point. We're working with some nations in Atlantic Canada, the Atlantic First Nations Water Authority and Buckinggate First Nation. And we have been working with the First Nations Health Authority here in British Columbia. And we're working with stay less to talk about some health facilities that could be located there. So today, I have a few slides to introduce what Finney is all about. That's what we call it for short F and I or Finney to talk about the approach to talk about the mission to talk about the work we're doing and how we think this might look better. So, Chris, we can go to the next slide. Great. The mission of the fields and processes to effectively and efficiently infrastructure assets on their lands and this mission was developed with the input and guidance of the Finney Development Board. So we have, we, you know, Finney doesn't exist yet. So when it does exist, we see it would be having a board of directors that would provide leadership and guidance. And during this development phase, what we do have is leaders from across the country that have stepped forward to provide leadership and guidance. And they have provided the input statement. We have actually the chair of our development board is very close to Victoria. So first nation former chief Alan Clarkson is our development board chair. Keith Matthew from Sim first nation and that's equipment territory. We have Vaughan Paul from the technical services advisory group in Alberta. Darren Saskatchewan, Chief David Crate in Northern Matoba, Fisher River, Cree. Jordy K. Capitum from Northwestern Ontario, the KO chiefs, very remote communities. Joe Muscovam from the Chippewas of the Thames in Ontario and Dana Francis from Tameek in Atlantic Canada. Those are the members of our Finney Development Board. And they have again provided the input to this mission. I think it's maybe worthwhile noting here that in this mission statement, we don't actually see the words fund or finance. That's not to say that we don't think financing a lot, but we want to be very clear about what it is that Finney is doing and what the other fiscal institutions are doing in the support of nations that are choosing to absurd their jurisdiction. Over their infrastructure projects. So I'm going to talk a little bit more about that in the, in the upcoming slides. So maybe Chris, could we go to the next slide, which talks about the strategic approach. And, you know, this is the first nation led initiative similar to the, to the fiscal management act that are that there's institutions that are best out, which I think you probably heard from some of them in the previous webinars. Finney is going to be infrastructure focused. The idea of setting standards with respect to the planning and procurement infrastructure project and reviewing and certifying that those standards have been met. That's the similar idea that you see with the First Nations Financial Management Board. Similar idea that you see with the First Nations Tax Commission. Setting standards and capacity development for support to meet those standards. Being a center of excellence. We hope that the nations won't have to do multiple, you know, wastewater treatment plants, for example, in a, in a generation that you build those things once and you have the capacity for them to last for a long life. The downside of that is that you may not have the expertise or the experience of doing those processes multiple times. And, you know, having a center of excellence where you can know what the best practices are where you can avoid the pitfalls. That's, we think that will be helpful. We know that, you know, in provinces, there's there's infrastructure agencies that have been established to support infrastructure development like partnerships, BC, for example, SASC, build infrastructure. You know, this would be an indigenous, you know, center of excellence. And part of the legislation. So this is a number of times wide you need to have legislation. We think that it's important for the mandate of the organization to be very clear and established through the legislation and the relationships with the other institutes to be clearly defined in the legislation. So that's the strategic approach. And this is the, you know, there, it has had some success this approach, as you may have heard from previous webinars, if we can go to the next slide. Chris. You know, there are three institutes that have been established by the act. The act was received royal ascent in 2005, I believe. And really, once the boards were appointed, the institution started operations in 2007. It really is based on a model that's probably very familiar to you, which is the BC municipal finance model with the idea of being that individual nations that participate in the regime may have tax that they have from their reserves, and they have borrowing requests for infrastructure projects on their lands, and they submit their borrowing request to the First Nations finance authority. The finance authority compiles the borrowing request from the various First Nations that are participating and then issues of the venture in through capital markets to achieve more favorable borrowing terms. The role of the tax commission is to provide some support for property tax, and then there's specific taxation powers provided for in the fiscal management act, including development cost charges, including some fees. The role of the First Nations financial management board is to provide certification or financial management systems and financial performance. So to become a borrowing member of the First Nations finance authority, a participating First Nations is required to have their financial system certified by me to make sure that to enhance the credit strength of the borrowing members. The whole regime is optional. It's not mandatory. At the start, I think when this initiative was being discussed in the early 2000s, there was some thought that, well, this is maybe going to work for a few First Nations. You know, maybe the swamishes in the West banks and the cannibals of the world that have are located close to an urban area that have strategically located lands. What we have found out since the time of the legislation was passed, there's now over 300 First Nations across the country that are participating in the act. And to participate in the act, the requirement is to pass a ban council resolution and submit that ban council resolution to Canada. And then the name of the initiative is added to the schedule to the act, which is you can find online. So with 300 First Nations across Canada, using the tools of the fiscal management act, I guess a frustration, maybe or despite the fact that it looks like nations are using a lot of these tools. And in fact, the First Nations finance authority has been successful at raising revenue for capital for First Nations for their projects, but we still have a huge infrastructure gap. And so, you know, what are the missing pieces to this puzzle that we can add what are the missing tools in the toolbox that could be available to the First Nations that wish to assert their jurisdiction over infrastructure. This is where the idea for Finney, you know, has really come from. So yeah, maybe we can move on to the next slide, Chris. You know, one of the things that we found as we've been going out and talking about the idea behind Finney and what Finney will do was some misperceptions, I think about the role of this organization and since Canada, I think a couple of years ago, publicly stated that it was going to be getting out of the business of infrastructure on reserve. They have made several statements about wanting to have indigenous organizations assume the responsibility for that because the track record of success is just not there and the gap is not closing and so trying to find a different way to do things, we see some different organizations across the country emerging. In BC, there's an organization called the BC Housing and Infrastructure Council. In Alberta, there's a group of nations that have been talking about assuming responsibility for some infrastructure. In Manitoba, the Southern Chiefs Organization is over 20 First Nations that are looking to assume responsibility for water infrastructure. In Atlantic Canada, we see 20 First Nations in the Atlantic First Nations Water Authority wanting to assume responsibility for water infrastructure. So there's these regional organizations that are emerging and establishing themselves and their roles. They would be similar in a sense to what the First Nations Health Authority is. That is to be assuming responsibility for some things that the government of Canada is currently doing and to enter into a funding agreement, a 10-year funding agreement to undertake those responsibilities. That is not what Finney is about. We don't think that Finney would be in competition with those bodies. In fact, we think there's a strong complementarity to them. And in fact, we think we need strong indigenous regional organizations if we're going to be able to close the infrastructure gap. But what Finney is, and we described it here, and then again, this was a lot of discussion with our development board. A First Nations-led institute to support the use of best practices in planning, procurement, and delivery of project. A capacity developer of providing technical support. A complementary body to the existing First Nations institutions established by the FMA and supporting the due diligence on monies invested in infrastructure. But Finney is not a funding body, not an engineering, architectural firm, not a contractor, not an owner, not a decision maker, and replacing other groups or stakeholders. So, and I've got some examples that we'll talk about just to describe how we're working together. So maybe, Chris, we can go to the next slide. So this slide, you know, is looking at establishing a project team. We have three projects that we're working on right now, and maybe this is a good place to talk about the examples. In the case of Kettle and Stoney Point, we have an individual First Nation that is looking to replace and upgrade and expand the service area for a water and wastewater system. So in that scenario, we have 100 member households that are connected to the system. We have about 400 colleges that are not connected to the system. And the community has established a comprehensive community plan that identifies a number of priorities including improving and upgrading the system. So that there can be some environmental and public health risk addressed. There's some concerns about the nature of the wastewater treatment for the colleges right now. So in this case, we have, you know, people on the project team from the nation, including counselors, including administrators. Any technical team members participating on the project team, and we had some, they had some external advisors that they were also bringing into the technical team. And together, you know, we've worked together to develop, for example, terms of reference for the feasibility study for the wastewater treatment plan. We've worked together to evaluate bids that have come in a study from the treatment plan. These are not things that happen every day. So we're reviewing, you know, multiple bids and understanding what to look for in the bid package. Or even the establishing the criteria to evaluate the bids. These are things that the nation was keen to have some support on. Another example is how we're working with the First Nations Health Authority. And with Stalis. So in this case, we have a regional organization that's providing some funding. The First Nations Health Authority is providing some funding for the project. The nation itself has some revenue that it's looking to put towards the project. And Canada is making a contribution. And so, you know, in the project team, we have not only members from Stalis, the nation, but also the First Nations Health Authority and Finney. In the case of the Atlantic Water Authority, similar situation, we're bringing together some folks from the different organizations to the part of the project team. So I think that's maybe a good, a little bit, a good discussion on, you know, what the organization's meant to be doing, how it's meant to be supporting projects. If we go to the next slide, we can talk in a little bit more about what we see for Finney to work with nations or indigenous organizations to support projects. I know this is a bit of a busy slide. It's really, I think, about it more in terms of these four steps. The first step is really identifying the project. The second step or the second row is really about developing a business case for a project. The third row is really about procurement process going to find a company or group to work with to develop your project. And fourth and final, the bottom row is really about, you know, construction operations and maintenance. So you can see in the diagram, there's a lot of thought about planning and upfront planning. I think it's maybe a bit misleading, this picture in a sense, because we know that the operation and maintenance and the lifecycle and asset management periods of time are very long, or hopefully they're going to be very long, and there's costs associated there. And so it doesn't really demonstrate that length, but it is a good, it is a hopeful picture, I think, just in terms of us describing what it is, what the process is would like to use and the standards that would be set to develop projects. So again, I know there's maybe sometimes some confusion. What is Finney going to do? Is it going to be setting like, you know, business building codes or water quality standards? No, it's not. Really, the idea behind Finney and the standards behind Finney are about the process by which you would do the due diligence to develop your water quality. If the country you're in, there may be appropriate building codes or water quality standards, or those things have already been developed. We're not trying to recreate the wheel for those. But what we are trying to do, I think, is support nations that choose to work with Finney to develop the business case for their project, and that business case needs to think through not only the construction costs for the project, but also the operating and maintenance costs.  So really working with in these proof of concept projects on the business case for the projects. If you get a chance, if you're working, I really do recommend going to check out Finney webpage. There is a publications and resources section on the web pages. I'm just looking at now and there's some templates and documents that are kind of that can be helpful to provide a little more information about our thinking on some of these things. You know, one of the things that we have been suggesting is that when we're identifying the project and putting together a project team, that a project charter would be something that would be helpful. And there is actually on the Finney webpage, there's a sort of outline of what some things that could go in the project charter, you know, things like, well, who's going to be on the team, of course, what are the, you know, principles by which you're going to, you know, guide the relationship that you're going to work together in a respectful manner. So there are projects, accountability and transparency. The governance of the project, the decision making process of the project, the roles and responsibilities, some of the steps that you expect to go through and the timeframes, a conflict of interest provision. So some of those things are we think should go into a project charter and spending a bit of time thinking through those things will help the process as we move through it. So if I was thinking about, well, how is this Finney going to work, the nation is going to say, well, first of all, because it's optional, just like the rest of the fiscal management act, a nation would indicate that they would like to work with Finney, establish the project team, work collaboratively to develop a project charter, and then there could be a case where the nation says, well, I want to make sure I have all the right things in this project charter. Can we review it against the Finney standards, and that there could be a review, you know, in terms of helping the business case, do we have all the things that we need to have in the business case? Have we covered them? Have we done all the due diligence we need to do to put this project forward and to make it work? And again, similarly, I would encourage you if you have time to check out the business case outline, the, you know, the strategic case. It's really the why are we doing the project and I know in some cases the way the system currently works where nations are heavily dependent on federal funding. They may be really doing projects that have funding available, but not necessarily projects that are community priorities. So what we're hoping is with this approach with using the tools of the fiscal management act, being able to use some of their own local revenues for the project that nations will be able to really develop projects that meet their own community priorities. Those are things that could be set out in something like a comprehensive community plan. Could be set out as part of a multi or financial plan. Could be identified in the land use plan. Could be identified in a capital plan. You know, these are things that some nations may have portions of that are but maybe don't have all of those pieces in place. As far as you've heard from other organizations like the, you know, the land management initiative or the First Nations Financial Management Board. Nations are starting to develop or have developed different parts of those plans and bringing them together and linking them strongly to the business case we think is important. The economic case, really about the, you know, probably everyone's familiar with the feasibility studies they get done. And this is where we see the feasibility study fitting is in the economic case. You know, what would be some of the things that would be touched on there well what were one of the location options for this project. What are the costs, the indicative costs for the project. So, for example, with Kettle and Stoney Point. We have been working with them on a wastewater treatment plant feasibility study and we did look at various locations and there was evaluations of the locations and different ways to treat the wastewater. And, and coming to the point of how where will the connections be and what will be the timing of the connections to the wastewater treatment plan, and what are the costs associated with those. The commercial case is really about procurement. And, again, I, you know, we think that the current the way the current system is services Canada. Communities, some communities are, are dependent on indigenous services Canada funding. The process to use the funding from, from indigenous services has a certain procurement approach, the design build approach is typically the approach that is used. And that may well be the need to procure a project but we think in, in this process in the fitting process that there should be an evaluation of different procurement approaches. And we know that some nations have tried different approaches they've tried design build approaches for the tried construction management approaches. There's a whole list of alphabet suit acronyms of different ways to procure projects and really manage the risk associated with construction and could be the operation and maintenance of the project depending on the way it is procured. And so certainly this is the key area we think for any is to look at the list of procurement options to talk about the advantages and the disadvantages. To do an evaluation of the options and see which one may be most relevant for this particular project. And yet to really come to some skin. The project will be procured like why is this important. Well, we think it's really important in terms of risk management. We think there could be improved management costs. There could be improved quality of the project. There's a number of outcomes that we think could be improved as a result of procurement. The financial case, of course, is a key part. I know I said at the outset that finance and funding wasn't in the mission. And I said it's not to say that we don't think about it we're going to be thinking about a lot and we are thinking about a lot. The financial plan for the project. The key, you know, one of the reasons of being part of the fiscal management act is, is being able to use, we think there's a value of being able to use all of the tools of the fiscal management act and that's the access to capital through the first nation finance authority. That's the asserting jurisdiction over local revenues on your lands and raising local revenues and improve financial management. And all those are brought to bear in the financial case and, you know, matching up the costs to the, to the revenues. So making sure that we know these things don't always happen at the same time, but using financing tools to be able to match up the revenues to the cost is part of this. So I think it is a really exciting part we see we again having 300 nations that are part of the fiscal management act already. Maybe raising their own revenue, wanting to do innovative things to find solutions to build projects that meet their own priorities is very, very exciting, I think. And we are, you know, talking to, and hearing from nations that are saying we want to, we want to use these tools. So that includes again, you know, property tax, but also something called a service tax, which is very closely linked to, to the development or our improvements to infrastructure. There's actually a case study of a kiss connect first nation to not have territory in British Columbia, where there was improvements to water infrastructure, and then that improvement was linked to a specific service tax where the costs of those improvements are amortized over a period of time and paid through that service tax and once those improvements are paid, then, then that tax falls away. So development cost charges again, a one time charge fees, there's ongoing fees service fees that can be charged. There are some tools in the act that are quite helpful. And of course we see, you know, local governments in British Columbia or other parts of the country use these tools to be able to pay for the costs of infrastructure. We're not suggesting that Canada is off the hook for funding. It's not a role for Canada to play there, just acknowledging that nations want to have their own tools as well, and certainly have a more diversified, you know, base, more sustainable and diversified economy local economy would be not just members, but also economic development activities. I should say one of the other I think interesting things that's being discussed is the idea of monetized transfers. My reasonable question is, well, it's fine for a nation that has its own revenue that can finance things but what about the nations that simply don't have their own revenue they don't have the opportunity to charge taxation to a to a lessy, you know, whether it's a retail shopping center, a gas station, a business, whatever that lessy is. The idea behind the monetized transfer is really if a nation had a long term transfer agreement with Canada, would the nation be able to go to the first nations finance authority and say, well, we're going to have this transfer coming in over the next X number of years. Based on that long term predictable revenue stream. We would like to borrow some money today to pay for this project. This is an idea that's been discussed I think for some time. I know the finance authority is very keen to support this approach and we know that the government of Canada has some concerns about risk management with respect to that. If there is a long term transfer agreement in place, what certainty is there that the project is going to get built, get completed. What certainty is there that the project is going to be completed on time and on budget and is it going to last, because the last thing they want is to have this financial transaction in place. And the asset either be incomplete or is no longer working and there's still this ongoing obligation to pay for this transfer. So, you know, this is why I think we think there's a real opportunity for Finney to support, you know, rigorous due diligence and project plans and business cases that are developed to a standard to which those risks can be effectively managed. In terms of the management case, you know, there's a strong what we've heard from nations there's a strong desire to participate in projects to build capacity to be operators of projects. And although there's the desire to do that there may not be the capacity today, but how can we build that management capacity over time. And again, the management case is an important part. I think for not only, you know, engagement of the community over time about incorporating their input into the project but also building capacity and local management. That's a lot I it's a bit odd because I can't see anyone on the other side of this looks like people are still hanging in there so I feel like I've been talking for a long time now but hopefully everyone's following along that you know again the idea I think behind the project idea in the business case is we would get to the end of the business case. And a nation would say okay we develop this business case we'd like to have it reviewed to make sure it has all the right things in it. And so, it's not a case of Finney saying whether you know it's a good project like it's the right project or it's a great procurement model. The question is, have you done have you gone through the right process. Have you considered your options. Have you come to the conclusion and built consensus around how you're going to approach this, and have you at least considered all of these things in your business case. And so we would see, you know, at the end of the business case phase a review to make sure it had it was complete. Once it was complete, Finney could issue a certificate to say this business case has considered all the appropriate things in it. And I just gone through a list of some of them I think, you know, as Finney develops the standards to which it will certify things will be developed in more detail. But generally, you know, speaking these are the aspects of the business case we think are important. Why are you doing the project the strategic case. What you know the feasibility of the project the economic case, the procurement options analysis in the commercial case, a financial model that looks not only at the cost of construction but also operation and maintenance, the financial case, and matching revenues up to those, and how the ongoing management of the project is going to work. All those things should be incorporated into the business case and once that's complete. We think that's important, an important signal for who. Well, I think it's an important signal for members to know that that the leadership of the nation is undertaking the work is doing the due diligence required to build a project that's going to work for the community that's going to be quality services. We think that will be an important signal to to lenders who may be interested in in lending for the project that you know there's, there's all the due diligence has been done. Funders that will be important for, you know, government Canada is providing funding. What about regional projects that have limited all budget, you know budget constraints and they want to make sure that the projects going ahead in a good way. And going on to the next phase. I think this is important for companies that may be interested in bidding on the project. Having a proper business case will hopefully instill confidence in companies that, you know, the funding is lined up the projects been well thought out. There's a procurement process that's going to go ahead. It's going to be a fair and transparent current process. It's going to result in a decision being made. And it's going to go ahead in a timely fashion. And with that kind of confidence, we would hope that there would be more competition, there would be more firms interested in competing for the work. We would hope there would be better value for the nation and for the members in terms of the and for the residents, whether their businesses are, you know, or residents, non member residents who are living on the land. So, yeah, the procurement phase. I know we haven't, you know, we're still in the planning process for the proof of concept projects that we're working on, but we know that the development of procurement documents, tender documents is, is a significant work. And so having it get similar to the way that the tax commission and the financial management. We think that some tools and templates with respect to the procurement would be very helpful. And that's something that Finney would also be. And then, yeah, certainly last but not least on this picture spent a lot of time talking about this picture, but there's a lot in here I think, you know, construction operation. We know that that operation phase is, you know, we want it to be extending the life of the asset, and it's going to be over a longer period of time and certainly had a lot of interest from nations that we've been talking to about assuming responsibility for asset management. And also data management with respect to their product. I think there's more work to do to be thinking through that last row but do you want to make the comment that we are thinking about the entire life cycle. So I think that's quite a lot on that one picture. Maybe if we can go to the next slide. The next slide is talking about a few scenarios and Yeah, one of the questions we have was, you know, are you, how are you going to respond to different nations, or different organizations in different circumstances. Maybe there are some nations or groups that have a lot of experience that have their own way of doing things. And they're not looking for a lot of support, but they still believe there's value in having a project certified by a project plan certified by any. And again it's project based right it's not it's not it's not certifying the nation certifying this project business case. So you know in that situation we can see and again the idea behind this picture is really showing three different nations these are the three scenarios or three groups doesn't have to be it could be a an Indian act and it could be a regional organization could be a tribal council could be a not for profit society established by multiple nations to govern some sort of health infrastructure. Whatever that group is, they may be looking to finny for types of support and on the left hand side, we see the types of support that finny could provide for the one. So to find project plans against those standards, you know that a little bit more details maybe providing some tools and templates samples guides to support the nation as it develops its project and and a lot of support really participating on project team so you know on the on the left hand side we see a nation that's doesn't isn't looking for a lot of support. And on the right hand side, we've got a situation where the nation's looking for more support and and so it's really up to the nation to decide how involved they or what kind of I think they would be looking for from finny and again I think we can look to the experience of the other fiscal management act institutions to see how they respond to you know to nations that are wanting to work with them. We just got a couple more slides I really appreciate everyone hanging on throughout this. We go to the next slide it's actually kind of a little bit more interesting maybe sample funding model. There was a lot of as I mentioned like confusion about what's finished role and how will the funding work we got asked this question a lot. And so we thought it might be helpful to have a scenario I think there's many different scenarios. This is by no means doesn't have to be like this. But I think it's interesting to think through this picture and then you can think of all these different permutations or different scenarios that might work. In this picture on the in the middle of it is the first nation. And you can see we have, you know, could be multiple first nations working together. I haven't really mentioned that too much the idea of bundling. But if you had, you know, perhaps several communities within the same nation.  If you were pursuing projects of a similar nature. Would you be able to cure multiple projects under a single procurement. This is the idea behind bundling. See it sort of gets mentioned a lot. I think with possible solutions for closing in the infrastructure gap seems like it's probably more complicated than it sounds. In terms of how you bundle things together in the decision making process but not the ass in the process because we do think there could be the potential for multiple nations working together. Just above it you can see of course the infrastructure project could be a water system. We're really concentrating I think on community infrastructure projects. It could be a health facility community building high speed internet project is on the left hand side we have some funding sources and again these are this is not an exhaustive list but one funding source we see a lot is the federal fiscal transfer. So that would be funding from indigenous services Canada, and they have a group that that provides funding for projects they have certain priorities that they fund. Essentially what happens is the the budget for capital projects is allocated out to the regional offices so and then the regional offices make allocations so for example in British Columbia. The regional office would have a certain to allocate projects in a given year. Of course the demand for funding is much higher than the funding available so there tends to be a backlog of people wanting to get their projects done but this is the one source funding that could be possible. In addition, we see on the left hand side local and other revenue. Believe it or not these are technical terms local revenue is defined as in the First Nations fiscal management act and other revenue is defined in a regulation to the act. So that could be things like revenue from impact benefit agreements, for example, could be. So a nation in BC has negotiated a reconciliation agreement with British Columbia that reconciliation agreement consists of some lands that they are reacquiring and also cash is being paid out over a period of 10 years or so. And so the cash that's paid out is a trust. The trust is earning income and the nations then able to use the income for the purposes that have been established through the trust so when we think about other revenues. Certainly think about the potential for the nations to use those revenues and go to the First Nations finance authority and get a loan today based on the revenues that they're going to be collecting in the future. So that's again a real I think a real key part of this whole picture and we can see in the, you know, in this scenario again, the financial management board of certifying the financial management of the nation. The tax commission is providing support in terms of local revenue loss. And then the role of fitting really supporting the nation and developing its project, developing the business case supporting the procurement of the project. And that provides a little bit of context just once again, you know, could there be different scenarios. Like, could you have a box on the left hand side where the First Nations health authority is providing some funding to the nation for funding. Absolutely. Could we have different ways that the loans and the money swine. Absolutely. This was just I think one scenario that we thought would be one that would be familiar to nations and be one of interest to nations. So that I'm coming to the end here. And I just, I just have one more slide really which is just talking about workshops we have been doing some. We did some webinars that are on our webpage you can have a look up there too and we have been doing workshops. We've been doing some of these ideas and there's no shortage of good ideas for projects. I think that's one of the exciting parts of working with Vinny is the real enthusiasm and excitement that communities have that people have to improve the infrastructure in their community. Let's say to many and others at the financial management or that they have such a hard job going talking about tax, talking about strong financial management, these are kind of abstract terms or even terms that people are, you know, there's controversy but when you talk about improving infrastructure projects people are always really positive and really enthusiastic and so, you know, we're hopeful that in the coming months. We're expecting that memorandum to cabinet in the fall with some policy objectives for establishing finny through an amendment to the fiscal management act. And after the memorandum to cabinet we would hope that legislation would be introduced in the winter. If any would be established and that we will be able to respond to, you know, nations and indigenous groups across the country to support them to close the infrastructure gap. So, thank you so much for being patient and taking the time to listen today and certainly be happy to respond to questions that you may have. Thank you very much for your presentation over the first comments we just had a lot of a lot of our public servant colleagues who just wanted to show their appreciation for the seminar and they've really felt that it's really helped their understanding. And maybe to start off with the first question that we have is that. This is a more general of question to public servants and it's really about advice is the question from Genevieve Patterson is that would you have advice for public servants and developing meaningful partnerships with First Nations. Yeah, that's, I mean, sorry just to just can you say that the question again advice for public servants or wanting a good relationships. Yes, develop meaningful partnerships with First Nations. I mean, you know, our approach I think with with any has been to well to reach out to communities trying to describe some of the objectives that we've been talking about are just reflecting on the how we develop the relationships that we have with the nations that we're working with so far. And it's been really an iterative process, but, but talking about the objectives, trying to listen as best we can to the work that they have done to what their objectives are to understanding how we can support, you know, their project reporting regularly with political leadership. As well as including people from the administrative. Different department. So again, going back to that project team slide when I think about how we've been working with communities on the project it's been from lots of different parts of the organization so it's, it's not just meeting with the counselor. It's the bad manager is the person from finance who's been participating. It's the person from the property tax side is the person who was involved in the comprehensive community planning process. It's the actual water plant operators to guys who are community members who are, you know, really invested like I would say emotionally invested in their in their career as providing that service to their community members and talking. You know about what are these options and what are the impacts and really being collaborative and inclusive I think has been an objective and including. And I go back to the times before COVID, when we could actually see people in person. And we were having community engagement sessions to say we're starting this process. We want to hear from you about what your thoughts are about, you know, the procurement options. And we said the word procurement about four times in our presentation thinking that we're pretty smart.  So, we realized, yeah, just, we needed to communicate and communicate in language that was understandable and and make those efforts and it takes time, that's for sure. Thank you, Jason. Another question when this is really comes about the funding models and I know I know that all the organizations under the FMA have actually have these broad engagements so the questions really is there been any discussion of the PPP model the public private partnerships and how would this actually work into the work that you've shown. So some of the people who are on our technical team do have expertise with P3s, public private partnerships. I know for some people that's that's a bad word. It's polarizing approach. And I would say that, you know, I think our approach and our discussion is open to that possibility. When we talk about different procurement models. If we had something that consider the design and the build the financing, the operation, the maintenance, you're entering a realm where you're thinking about something that sounds and looks like a public private partnership. And one of the I think arguments against using this type of an approach with First Nation projects has been the argument that First Nation projects are just too small that the transaction costs associated with the P3 model is significant and doesn't is not justified in the use on projects that are, you know, $20 to $50 million. So I mentioned a water wastewater project. You know, that's that's the sort of realm of project size that we're talking about like 20 to 50 it's not, it's not insignificant. That's a big, it's a lot of money. But in terms of infrastructure project size, you tend to see larger projects and that that use that.  You know, some may have met him by Tim Philpots, who is the head of the infrastructure program at EY and who's based out of Vancouver here. You know, he says, he threes should really be planning planning and planning. Like that's what, you know, it's the rigor of the planning so in terms of a funding model is not possible. In fact, we think this is going to, you know, where it makes sense, you know, applying these concepts will enable that to happen. And certainly, when I mentioned, you know, multiple projects, bundling projects and regional organizations, maybe there's an opportunity, more opportunity to use that kind of a model in those circumstances. Yeah, and the other, you know, of course interesting stuff has been happening lately like the Canada Infrastructure Bank discussions and announcement about the program they have. You know, I didn't have that in the financial the funding model scenario had there but certainly seems like it would be reasonable to be looking at all funder funder options. Yeah, and of course the announcements in the federal budget about investments into infrastructure and using this kind of approach is going to help you get your project shovel ready. So, great. Thank you very much. And once again, I'd like to thank Stephen McComb for this question. The next question I would actually like to raise is from Sabrina Deemert, who's quite curious about the relationship between Indigenous Services Canada and Finney. And your question is it, would Finney approaches be able to be used if ISC is still providing funding, or would seeking infrastructure upgrades through ISC programs exclude nations from participating in FMA and using these tools. So once again, it's really a discussion. What is basically the interfaith of ISC or other federal agencies with Finney. Great question. And it's not, they're not exclusive. So, if you choose to work with Finney it doesn't mean you're choosing not to work with ISC. In other words, we would see a project where there would be a contribution from ISC. There would be a contribution from the nation potentially. But like, one of the things that I see anyway, like, or a perspective that I have is that when you come on to reserve, well, first of all, it's a different world, because now all of a sudden provincial laws of general application don't apply. We're on federal land. There's different rules. And, and so what are the rules for infrastructure? Well, you know, Canada basically funds certain things, but they tend to fund things that support member services. So water systems, for example, roads, for example, schools, for example. And they provide the funding. And then we have maybe, you know, on this other part of the reserve, there's some economic development. Well, ISC is not going to want to fund the economic development. Why? There's a confusing reasons and people have different opinions about what the reasons are. The fact is, ISC tends not to fund economic development. They tend to fund members. So now what do we have? We have like these two worlds that should be in some cases connected to one infrastructure system. Why would you build two separate systems to serve members and non-members? It seems to make more sense to have a one system that serves both, but to have a fair and equitable allocation of the costs. You know, then you come to the question, well, how are we going to develop a fair and equitable allocation of costs for members and non-members? You know, are we using water meters? Like, how are we doing this? And certainly there's ways to do it, it seems, but it makes sense to me that a continuing role for them to fund could be straight from ISC from the regional office, could end up being a regional indigenous organization if we looked five years into the future, 10 years into the future. We know that Canada says they want to get out of the business of funding infrastructure. They want to hand over the responsibility for that to regional organizations. We could see something like the First Nations Health Authority, but it could be an infrastructure authority or a housing and infrastructure authority. That's exactly what the Housing and Infrastructure Council is looking at doing. So there could be a role for funding there, but then also we would see probably and hopefully a more diversified, a more balanced view, just generating some of its own revenue from activities on this land. There's a contribution from ISC, and we've been using the tools of the Fiscal Management Act, we're able to, and building a business case, we're able to demonstrate that in fact there is a fair and equitable allocation of the costs. And that leads to a more assistive infrastructure system overall. So, sorry, that's been long winded, but address it. That's very interesting answer because we have a follow up question that's actually a bit more expansive, but on the same theme. And this is really about more the relationship with it could be the province, the relationship it could be with a municipality or a regional district. So this, and Robert Livingston has asked the question that the services that you're providing for First Nations are very similar to those that infrastructure BC provides the public sector project owners. And do you ever engage with infrastructure BC to share best practices and as do you see opportunities how both agencies could collaborate when we're actually talking about these larger infrastructure developments that benefit a number of communities. That sounds like a fantastic idea, 100%. I, you know, we're, we don't exist yet, we're an involvement phase. I know we say we want to do things in a different way I think probably people who are familiar with infrastructure would say, this isn't really that different this is just a sensible way to do infrastructure. I think we would agree. It's just that, you know, we're stuck with the Indian Act, in most cases, or for those nations that have opted out or opted to use parts of the fiscal management act. You know, there's some, some powers there. And we're just trying to, yeah, trying to create the structures to be able to use tools similar to what exactly like you say like what regional districts do what municipalities do. We know that even those governments get support from, like you say, from, you know, the provincial government, and maybe from other best practices and so we would hope that Vinny would be supporting some of that kind of a role and where we're sitting here in, you know, on a swamish nation reserve in North Vancouver, there's three of them, and there's three local governments. And we know the, you know, wastewater treatment plants for the North Shore is being redone and these are complicated things when you get a whole bunch of people in close area. You know, it's interesting going to different parts of the country, like when we're working with Kettle and Stoney Point, you know, it's a drive out from town to get to Kettle and Stoney Point. You know, and in some places, it's more like that where the nation is sort of on its own, almost on its own. And in BC, I feel like there's many opportunities located, you know, and municipalities or regional districts, there's potential for collaboration there. And, you know, not to make sweeping generalizations, but anyways, I'm just agreeing with the point, I think there is an opportunity to collaborate. I think it would make a lot of sense. And, you know, hopefully the tools that we're hoping trying to develop here for First Nations, provide them with the tools in the toolbox so when they come to the table to talk to regional districts or municipalities, they have these tools to be able to engage in a discussion. And thank you, that's a really rich answer. And we certainly have colleagues who are inspired and I can see that, you know, Jeanine Manji is similarly inspired and she's saying, well, she's asking, will you provide tools to support change management and communications planning, as well as to help implement the project? Yeah, certainly, you know, again, we're in a in a development phase trying to think this through but you know, what are the tools and templates and supports that are going to be required through that management case that I was talking about. And that management case I think covers again the whole of life so it covers, it should cover from, you know, the planning of the project and the community engagement and the engagement of the different administrative departments and the engagement of the operators of the infrastructure. And, you know, cover the management and the support and capacity development required through to picking a partner to work with to deliver the project to build it. And we think it should also cover once the building is, once the project operational, the operations and the maintenance. And so, you know, what do we see in other parts of the country, maybe on bigger infrastructure projects like you may have heard of these long linear infrastructure projects, what a power fleet show all season road in other parts of the country where there's indigenous groups that are participating multiple groups, participating on a project, and built into embedded into the procurement and into the business case or requirements for capacity development and requirements for participation. And so, I would think and I don't have we don't have anything specifically on one change management at the moment but I would argue that, you know, those things should be considered in the management case. Thank you. And a very similar question from Mark, I'm this and this is actually more about the broader picture of Finney and other institutions. And so would Finney have any specific of any specifications around governance such as land code, or play a role in assisting first nations and developing key policies, governance that can facilitate infrastructure development, or is this really more the tying with some of the other agencies that have developed under the the FMA, or the, or the land management act. That's an interesting question. And we're actually dealing with this issue specifically when we're working in Atlantic Canada. The Atlantic Water Authority as I mentioned, there, I think there was 25 nations that were interested and have been engaged in discussions I think 15 and committed to participate. There's potential for more to join. But so we have front first nations that are going to be part of this new organization that's in a transition phase. So much the same as the First Nations Health Authority had a transition phase that became operational. Out of those 15 nations, some of them have land code. Some of them operate under the Indian Act. Some have developed some of them have been added to the schedule of the First Nations fiscal management act. Some have not. Some have local revenue laws and are doing property tax. Some do not. Some have sales tax agreements. This is actually an interesting thing that I didn't talk too much about the budget, but as part of the federal budget. I think really interesting things and positive aspects was that nations that have entered into a tax collection agreement with Canada to collect sales tax, but there's three products for the FNGST. They weren't able to use that revenue to pledge towards a loan for the FNFA. I'm not sure what the argument was at the time, but as part of this recent budget, nations that do have that sales tax agreement. They're going to be able to use that to finance loans through the FNFA. It's like a huge deal, I think. Not very exciting terminology in that there's no money as a result of it, but that power will enable more nations to have borrowing room to be able to do their projects. Again, I'm getting off track a little bit here. We've got multiple nations with all the different baskets and decisions they've made about their path forward, about what powers their government is going to have. And as Finney, I think we need to be able to respond to the unique circumstance of a nation. So it's up to them to decide whether they think land code is a good idea or not. But does that mean they should still do a business? We think it does. You know, if they have a land code, could that help them in some ways? I think it probably could. You know, maybe you can still do stuff under the Indian Act. You know, similarly, like what about treaty nations? Modern treaty nations. Tlam and Monolf, you know, they have established their path through their treaty. How is it that they're going to develop their business case and how they bring to bear their powers as a government to be able to raise revenue to support their business case? I think for the Finney perspective, you know, we're not suggesting any which way is the best way of figuring out your path. I think what we would be doing is trying to understand the powers that that indigenous group has and how they can be brought to bear to build a solid business case for a project. We're getting such great questions upon the answers you're providing Jason. So I apologize to my colleagues if I seem to be sort of going off, but I think there's some really helpful discussions that are arising. We actually have a further follow on question from Curtis Matias from the Ministry of Finance. And he says, as someone who's working in consumer tax policy says Finney is something that seems far away from my work, but he's also he's curious if Finney would be would be involved in helping nations develop tax sharing agreements, or at least the specter of a Finney opportunity would help develop a tax sharing agreement such as the one that they have Cowichan have with their tobacco taxes. And as he says, he feels this is an area that nations may need more help in navigating the system to enable them to get the funds via tax sharing agreements. Yeah, so interesting.  And the reason I say that is it just shows the four fiscal institutions that are part of the fiscal management act. So again, you know, there's the financial management board. Its role is to support nations that want to improve their financial management. And it provides services to do that it provides, you know, tools about policy and procedures to establish your but it talks about the thing you should have as pretty financial management system, the standards. The tax commission has a separate role, and it sets standards with respect to taxation and supports nations with tools and templates and sample laws to do so. So I would think, you know, that that rule of tax sharing agreements would and I recognize the provincial tax sharing agreement is a different thing than a federal one. I think that's relatively there's not maybe not as many provincial ones at the moment, but I think it would be great like if there was more like that because exactly like you say like it, you know, if there was more tax collection agreements coordination agreements, that means that government's going to have revenue streams of its own, having more revenue streams of its own provides it with, I think more ability to manage and assert its jurisdiction over its infrastructure and to manage it in a good way. So I'm just not sure that would be Finney's role right so it's, you know, not. I think we as we develop any we need to be thinking that these things are all connected and there's, you know, once you start talking about the project we immediately talk about the financing and the revenues and, but I think you know we want to be mindful of the way the structure has been established to the actor. Jason, and before I continue I'd first like to turn it over to my colleague Chris Vishard Chris I realized I jumped the gun at it and you did have some questions that you wanted to post to Jason. Chris. Okay, thank you great just getting online here. Jason, I had kind of a more general level question and that being that one of the enduring themes in our speaker series has been the power of indigenous led institutions to make significant change and improving the lives of indigenous individuals. And I'm wondering if you could speak to the importance of these kinds of institutions, why are they so effective, and how government agencies, and you may have touched on this one already but how we can best work with these institutions in pursuing reconciliation. That's a great question like you know I don't think anybody at the outset we thought this was a good idea I mean again I reflect on the fact that it's really be looked at this model it's really based on the BC municipal finance model and the structure that's been established has been incredibly successful for the province. You know through the MFA, as at least as I understand it I'm sure there's challenges like with everything but to be able to achieve favorable boring for small and large communities alike is is quite an achievement and the support for them and I think this structure has worked well for First Nations and they are they clearly have seen the advantages of doing that. You know being optional like was that part of it being our course First Nation led I think is an important part of being able to respond and have, you know, I think there's still challenges like I, you know, the way that the organizations are the appointment there's been challenges, just the timeliness of it, getting people on there I know for, you know we talked about it with respect to Finney like what are some of the challenges that those organizations have been frustrated with and how can we address them as we established Finney and its governance structure. And there's like two on the governance structure and the extensive efforts that were made with the First Nations Health Authority and how you know they've separated politics and business, and the way the health council points members to the board, the board structure would look like for Finney like, I think we would want to have in the way that we see it working. You know reviewing business cases and again standards, I think we want to have some real specific skill sets to be able to have that good leadership so we want to have engineering and technical expertise, you know we want to have expertise, we want to have procurement expertise on the board level. Does that mean it's First Nation people that could be on the board and it very well could be. Does that mean it's First Nation people who are doing the selecting of who's on the board and the taking off of who's on the board so it's still in control, but we just want to make sure that those core competencies are reflected on the board so you know like why are they successful I think I think you know the overall structure has worked that leadership has been good the benefits have been significant in terms of the the favorable boring rates compared to what what they perhaps were otherwise. And so the idea of going and making the effort of improving financial management systems of implementing tax laws these are all justified in the benefits that communities are are seeing I do think there's a huge opportunity for BC here. You know what I often in like meetings when I'm not meeting with people from BC. I literally they've literally tell me like don't say it's from BC, we don't want to hear anymore about everything's from BC. The truth is, the financial management board is located at the cap capolano reserve, the finance authorities at West Bank, and the tax commissions and canals. So, we've got three of these organizations based in, in BC, out of the, you know, out of the, what 200 First Nations I know that's not the right exact number but how many of the those nations in BC have chosen to actually use the services of the institutions and participate in the act is pretty high. I think it's maybe at least half or more. I'm not sure what the exact number is. And that's what I've been saying to the First Nations health story is guys look we've got like 100 nations here, half of the nations that you're working with, who are using these tools. And if they're using the tools, maybe you can leverage better the investments that you're making as an organization into the project so I would say, you know, similarly for BC. We have nations that are using these tools. If BC is, you know, reaching agreements or thinking like you say a tax collection agreement, is it just BC alone or are we understanding that there's other tools that are at play here, and that you can have a much bigger impact. You know, and maybe like again, the sales tax is a great example like is it, is it just that sales tax or is it actually even leveraging it through the finance authority, you know, and how, again, the importance of the nature of the sales coordination agreement, and the predictability and the certainty of it into the future, so that that nation is able to borrow on this. If it's going to be so next week, and be problematic, but if there's more certainty with respect to the nature of that revenue stream. And I know we can't predict, you know, economic shocks. You know, if it can be just taken away at a moment's notice, that's not going to lend a lot of, I guess, strength or instill confidence, you know, in that revenue stream. So, so I think there's opportunity though, real, real good opportunity. Thanks Jason. Our time is quickly winding down here so I wanted to take an opportunity to thank you for an excellent presentation. You've given us a strong sense of the Institute's mission, it's operating context, and how it intends to support First Nations in creating sustainable infrastructure. Our collective appreciation to you really for sharing the story of the First Nations Infrastructure Institute, and providing your insights on improving infrastructure outcomes and our knowledge for that matter on this subject. And I turn to the audience now and thanks also to you for your interest in participation. There was a series of fantastic questions, and I imagine a bunch that we didn't get to. So this concludes our webinar for today. Thank you again for for coming out and as Jason said, hanging in there. We really have no sense of how it's going for you. So, thank you, and have a great day.


to today's edition of Frank Fleer Forgotten. But to start things off, what are we drinking? The Resonator. Pilsner with Polaris hops. For the next few weeks we're going to be talking about some forgotten made for TV horror movies. Probably not going to mention any of the Stephen King ones because everyone knows those. So these are ones that may have flown under your radar. Today we are starting off with 1991's The Haunted. It is directed by Robert Mandell and he's mostly done TV things but he did direct the pilot episode of The X-Files. Sally Kirkland is in this. She was nominated for a Golden Globe for this role in this movie. Jeffrey DeMond is in this and he's in Walking Dead as everybody I think knows and he was also in Christmas Evil. Y'all gets laid big time in that. He gets laid big time in this movie too so keep watching to see where that happens. The movie starts off with the Smurro family of course moving into a new house. That's how most of these haunting movies start. Jack's parents are going to live in one side and then the rest of the family is going to live on the other side. There's some painting to be done because there's these big stains on the walls. Turns out when they paint over these stains they don't go away. They keep kind of coming through the paint. The dad Jack is doing some plumbing work and I don't know why he needs a hammer for plumbing but the hammer goes missing and that's the first kind of like odd thing that happens and there's several to follow. Gathering for breakfast the dad's a little flustered. Of course the dad's always rushing and flustered in these movies. Yeah he has to go to work. Mummy daddy the toaster's on fire. It up in flames and look wasn't even plugged in. Look mom wasn't even plugged in. Janet is doing laundry and she hears someone calling her name.  She heard Janet and Jack apparently fighting and cursing and using language that she's never heard before but he wasn't even home they weren't fighting. Janet has made some friends in the community and she goes bowling with them. Worst bowling ever seen in my life and that's coming for me.  I probably look just like her no form gutter ball central. She's telling her friends about all this weird stuff that's happening and of course they don't really believe her. And her husband doesn't believe her either.  I'm very very scared.  Janet goes and gets all these books and does some research. The house and the rest of the surrounding community was built over like these mine shafts in the 1930s.  Janet wakes up, feel there's something touching me and he actually does touch it and he knows right away that she's been telling the truth. Stop it you. Stop right now. So yelling at the ghost. Reach out to their local parish to the priest. Invite him over for dinner to try and exercise the house. Exercise.  He's like well there's wonderful things with marriage counseling that we're doing. You know we have wonderful programs and no there's nothing wrong with our marriage. There's something wrong with the house. Well it would still help.  You didn't do anything. He just went upstairs and got all sick. She goes to the university. The Warrens, Ed and Lorraine Warner doing like a lecture. She asks for their help and they end up coming down. You drink often? I like to enjoy a beer review once in a while. If that was us you'd have quite heavily all the time.  Oh wait no! So they start kind of doing a bit of a seance type thing. A bit of a blessing in their master bedroom. The drawers and everything start coming out and TV turns on. Gets all bright. So the Warrens kind of leave but they also tell them that you know this might not be over.  Some cheap little bo peep wing. While they're camping they actually see an apparition that appears. The ghost need to get out and get some fresh air They want to go camping. They get bored you know. I want to come too. The neighborhood is watching their house because their house is like going apeshit.  So when they get back the neighbors like pounce on them right away. They're like oh you guys are okay. We thought somebody was getting killed at your house. They told them that the cops were actually down at the house. They went inside to look around and there's nothing. There's nobody inside. So they go to the media and plead their case to try and garner some more support.  The old man all gets his shotgun out. You better get your gun. So Jack gets his gun. The church sends a priest to come and actually investigate themselves. Well a lot of investigating he does he just sits there for two days. He just sits on the couch. Then he just leaves. She's all pleading her case. Please stay please. I've done all I can do. You didn't do anything. You just sat there for two days. The smurls have nowhere else to turn and that's where we're going to end it. So what are they going to do? The reason we're talking about this movie I think is because for a made for TV haunting movie it's it's pretty good. The fact that it has to be done in a smaller budget not a big blockbuster budget helps the movie because it has to use low budget effects and stuff like that. More practical and kind of left to your own imagination compared to a lot of other haunting movies doesn't get super over the top and ridiculous. It's closer to real stories that you hear about hauntings. This movie is done in kind of a pseudo documentary style brings it to the real world. It makes it real because a lot of times you hear things and then she goes to look and there's nothing there. That's creepy enough. She hears her name being called and there's nobody in the house.  There's like the splashing in the tub and there's nothing there. It's like again that's relatable. That's relatable. Walls bleeding is it relatable but hearing something it's totally everybody hears things. Yeah another cool thing about this movie too which a lot of haunting movies don't do is that it takes place over a large period of time.  Yeah end with something crazy. Yeah you see the kids grow up like that's how long of a time it takes. Yeah I also like too how the whole community gets involved. You don't normally see in haunting movies. Not at all. Usually the only the family that's in the haunted house believe it right. Yeah in this like the neighborhood starts to believe it too. Sally Kirkland and Jeffrey DeMunn are really good. They kind of really make the movie. You believe it right. Yeah especially Sally Kirkland. It's no wonder she got nominated. She does a great job in this movie.  Yeah so if you like haunting movies like Amneville Horror and Entity which we've covered both of those in the past this movie is kind of like both of those kind of combined. Yeah without like a big Hollywood budget which helps actually. Yeah so if you're in the mood for kind of a laid back more down to earth realistic take on a haunting movie definitely check out all the haunted. Exactly and don't forget keep drinking.


So we're going to start you off with this wall that we created here while we were using our LiDAR center to test out environment. So this is a wall that's just made out of really cheap materials, so it's supposed to be a method of showing how low-cost implementation of messing with the system can then interfere with the LiDAR system to then produce false results or to make the system have misrepresentation of what's going on in the environment. What you see in the left and the right are two people they're going to push the button to keep going on the left is a small vertical thing that's how LiDAR sees a person on the right you're going to see we're going to start again you'll see the two people walking away and what you see is a wall that's created that lasts for about 20 to 30 seconds that's that was the very first provision which is flour and a couple other compounds in it which gets suspended in the air and if you make it thick enough LiDAR interprets it as a wall so we're going to go ahead i'm going to show this to you first to provide some context what's happening so go ahead get it forward let's let it run and out of nowhere out of nowhere you see the wall coming up there see it's spreading slowly the people are walking away slowly from it and it's just hanging in the air and it looks like a solid object as you'll see us when we talk later and the idea is you can create that was the first generation now we're up to the third generation of powder which has an even better hang time so just by with your hands throwing something in the air you can create an object for an autonomous vehicle okay now second so uh just a quick overview of the disclaimer um anything seen here uh if you you all would like to try it or replicate it uh just do so responsibly i'd also like to throw it out there that uh a lot of this is osi layer level one so um we did do some traditional cybersecurity work um however a lot of it or the things that were exploitable potentially uh could break the device and it was eight eight thousand dollars for one and it was the only one we had so not only did we not have eight thousand dollars to break but uh we also only had one device to test um so with that uh we'll continue so our project is tell me lies automotive lidar and low tech obfuscation uh this is partnered with capital tech university uh hawk cyber llc and asp global llc um the squad this is our group um unfortunately mike b couldn't be here today but uh he was great help on the project um uh ola right here behind me uh we have cyrus cyrus right here and then we have alijah rick and then me i'm bret uh abstract professor this was trying to determine what you could do what we call layer one which is the signals you receive passively which means we didn't inject any energy into it and the idea is what if you had an opponent who could use only readily available parts that were not technology based and the theory was as we'll show later there's significant issues with the algorithms used to safely drive autonomous vehicles of any kind and we're going to show you some background in other systems we've had that and we've got cases where for example using uh particular shapes where a human being in a trash bag disappears from the view of the lighter until it's too late you're within a factor of 10 to 20 feet before you can you would spot as a significant obstruction the wall over there obviously after 10 20 30 40 seconds will dissipate but for that time the car is going to come to a stop and we can all think of the issues that would cause and as we said layer one that's an area where uh we're doing some research a lot that's changing the voltage on a network cable that's absorbing an rf signal selectively so it changes its characteristics in this case it's literally throwing very fine dust in the air and seeing certain size particles provide a greater return so you want something hangs there but it's also a big enough particle that provides a great return so it's very hard to predict how an AI machine learning algorithm is going to handle an obstacle like that we're going to show you some examples of other things where they've had trouble so interesting bit of research and I hope you enjoy it thank you so on the left you can see like a typical cyber security practice you know coming up with some very complex solution to an issue it may work it may not in this case it didn't work but on the right was our team which was basically drug him hit him with with a five-dollar wrench and until he tells us the password and low tech wins for sure the methods we used in this presentation could essentially be used by anybody who doesn't doesn't necessarily have a lot of technical skills if they have a little bit of physics knowledge and also can think critically and it's even very cheap too so even people in third world countries could you know test this with self-driving vehicles again traditional cyber requires knowledge of industry standards programming skills system administration etc and again this project necessarily didn't although we did have some traditional cyber findings as well which were the web interface contains an unvalidated file upload area which essentially you could play around with the firmware because it's flashed without code signing before the device is in operation so essentially this is more of a proof of proof of concept because although we found this issue we couldn't necessarily test for it because we would have been thrown away eight thousand dollars so we do accept donations if anybody would like to assist in this project also the system config could potentially again be vulnerable to xxy this is another traditional like cyber finding that wasn't just the physical pentesting we did and then nmap revealed an open telnet port which is pretty self-explanatory so potentially you could tell that into the device as well again what we did doesn't require industry knowledge or certification or real technical experience and you know in a real-life situation maybe a bus automated or self-driving bus is driving down a highway and somebody just throws a powder off the bridge or maybe there's construction and dust gets blown there's no way to tell you know who if somebody threw powder or it was you know construction or what so it'd be very hard to catch somebody doing something like that so that's it off to stars for the donation it's $50,000 or more by the way so for the lair one attacks we had to analyze two threat surfaces the first would be us physically connecting to the device and we would have to test with nmap or burp street or you know security accredited industry tools that are used in traditional cyber security but then you know there's also the other threat surface of the physical sensor itself how the sensor receives the data from from external output and you know how we can manipulate that you know the sensor used in these cars it's a 904 nanometer sorry infrared sensor they know even the smallest spec would be picked up so if we had something that could create a cloud that's thick enough it would come by as of all as you could see on the previous slides like a human is even best dispersed than the cloud itself so you know it could even detect it as a as something even more solid than a human or a baby carriage for example so it could be a dangerous thing yeah in the digital world you think of a pulse as something that looks like this very square very sharp very well defined when you go ahead when something comes back what makes this all possible is you have to do a lot of digital lot of digital signal processing to separate the signal from the noise and that means it makes assumptions about what's real and what's not real so you'll have something that's very weak a very interesting interesting return coming back and then the AI and machine learning has to go ahead and figure out was that really a signal was that really noise and in these these sort of systems amplify when you inject noise in there for example the proper sized dust the proper sized surface that absorbs lights so the U.S. could accidentally hide a system see in the road for example an airplane or a car sends out pulses builds a map that shows its environment and it watches how things moves and it decides is that benign is it coming toward me do I have a clear path that seems pretty simple here's one of the most expensive projects in recent history for self-driving it's a f-16 airplane was flying over clear water at 100 feet the only difference was there was a very swelite breeze which caused ripples in the water which caused the same type of noise we're talking about here and the plane decided it would be a good idea at 100 feet above the water to bend over and aim straight at the water and take the pallet down in about a 1g turn you know headed toward the headed toward the water that that means 600 knots airspeed 100 feet above ground level wasn't turning seeing they're testing the terrain following system and it's really the algorithms we use which make all this possible looking at our friends at tesla who everyone knows is tesla has a problem with red fire trucks they use AI machine learning to use visible light to determine their environment and is they have a problem is wired magazine this is from wired magazine with red fire trucks there have been a number of crashes involving tesla where they have an algorithm it's trying to discriminate between the surroundings and the red fire truck and there's a small issue but the other side of it is there's Volvo and what's called pilot assist if a car is in front of you and it switches to the left lane and you are going slower than you want it will your car will automatically accelerate even if there was a car stopped in the road if you look there that's a desired behavior if you read the manual so if your car someone swerves left to void a car your car may accelerate and go into it once again it's the human programming the algorithm that doesn't sufficiently understand the complex environment and that's what makes these kind of attacks possible so after all this information like we could see that you can manipulate the sensors with physics different types of powder different types of density within the powder and you can use different colors and different different hues or the spectrum itself you could just so we tested this we did a bunch of tests with different colors surfaces and uh yeah if you look at the top the old f1 17 fighter knows has angles on it and it's also black one of the interesting features is if sun isn't shining directly on it you can't tell whether it's going up or down you can't see features on it because like it's reflected away it looks like a black hole in the sky and we'll show you we did some experimentation with different types of trash bags to find one with the right color that could be held at the proper angle like they have there which causes light to get when light comes to it gets reflected away from it the laser light and that doesn't get that which doesn't get reflected away a significant amount of it gets absorbed which means to have seen me at 600 feet away the distance shrinks down to 10 to 20 feet so here uh in the photos uh on the left you have me holding a box with uh dvds uh taped to it uh the bottom side of the dvds actually absorb the lasers from the lidar and then on the right uh you have uh rick and ola ola's the one in the trash bag um and you'll see later on we have a video uh showing um how the sensor was reacting to that as well and then uh ladies and gentlemen on the left you have our version of the stealth bomber uh this was our budget stealth bomber um so that was Cyrus laying down in the trash bag um wasn't able to detect him uh picture in the middle is the car we used to test uh the lidar on top um and we were testing i believe that was confetti in that photo um and that also was blocking the sensor as well um so it showed like a wall as soon as it was thrown out but very short duration yeah very very short duration so that's where we ended up coming up with uh other types of powders and things to test as well um and then on the far right you have ola again and the professor again uh however this time ola was walking into a wall so i thought i'd throw that in there as well uh so this is a excuse me this is a list of all the things we went through so now we're gonna rate them on at their uh level of danger that they pose to everyday functionalities um which one is it all right so this one is the so this one you'll see that um on the far left side uh that is remember that that's me and that's us throwing things into the street uh on the bottom you have the measurements of danger of relativity how close things are and how the lidar is reading them of course when you see this start moving blue means it's a low strength return the lidars gain that's the minimum strength that can detect something so if something's blue it means it's have not getting much light reflected back from it and so what you'll see is when things are close they'll turn from oh it's blue as the person walks away you'll see them turning all of a sudden they'll just be gone so whereas you and i stand they'll move away it will still be blue just a little bit weaker using the right surfaces at the right angle it disappears very very quickly and uh just again to clarify uh the hole we were in here it was about 50 50 feet long so imagine you're on a highway um going like 60 miles per hour uh to stop at 50 feet just suddenly you wouldn't you wouldn't be able to you'll notice in this and professor Hanson's hand here he has a little plastic uh black plate that's also just another material that just happens to not register very well with the lidar sensor and that's me in the trash bag so then you'll see as we get farther away how uh how we'll be less noticeable within the point cloud so if we had two sensors then that would provide more data to work with but you could still see what's going on in this environment so you'll you'll still see professor Hanson here but then you'll notice that it's really hard for to see me inside the trash bag this is the test that we just showed you in the beginning of the of our presentation just showcasing our powder test so it's me driving the fiat Cyrus is controlling the lidar sensor and then Elijah through the through the powder for us and you see how long it lingers and how it creates a lidar shadow so while that's being registered everything behind that's not so then like that situation with the the wall the way it's it's anonymous uh it's it's similar to one another since if if it's registering a wall then it doesn't notice what's behind it so if it makes a decision based off of what it first saw then that could have disastrous cause consequences depending on what's going on in that situation we already showed you the confetti so that's professor hinson right there in a trash bag near the side of the road we're not allowed to go uh on the road while testing with the car because you know there's like insurance liability and whatnot so he took that on for us and then we have this video showing the data from that from that experiment so this is me in the driving the fiat Cyrus controlling it there's a little car over here and then where the mouse is right here that's how to professor hinson so he's blended in to the background actually it's only once you get a little bit closer that's when you actually see some of the distortion so we're gonna turn back we're gonna make a u-turn right here so there's just some shrubbery and trees in the building then now we're gonna turn back around we're gonna head back towards professor hinson he's gonna be on the left side so right over here so he's right there so it's really hard to see him in relation to the to the environment which is more disastrous when you're dealing with higher speed situations so here's our final ranking of all different materials that we worked with the organic powder was the best because of how long it lingered and how it created uh almost an instantaneous wall to the lidar system the the shopping bags we used there there was this thing where we found out that home depot bags were pretty good at absorbing some of the spectrum of light that's produced by liars sensors but in that for our case depends on the angle of approach so it wasn't really that effective and then the cd disk that was okay but that's it's more a stationary object and maybe if you like broke them apart and made like a just I don't know just glue it onto something I don't know maybe that could be a little bit better and the confetti although it did create a wall of us in a sense it didn't linger very long so it wasn't really that effective and we have also tried other like pieces of black plastic like that little uh plastic plate that was pretty effective but it would be hard to use that in a quick sense without leaving evidence and whatnot and for the black spray paint although that may not be as useful on trying to cover up a material it could be useful and just spraying like a lidar sensor so if you're targeting someone you could cover up their lidar sensor so that takes out one of their sensors for whatever vehicle they're using or a drum so that's another attack vector for that we propose a hydrophobic spray so then it will not allow water or oil base paints to stick onto a sensor since it usually has glass on the outside so in conclusion there are a number of ways that an attacker could use low tech and really low cost materials or everyday things to to interact with the lidar sensor in order to help it in order to not well not have it to help it misunderstand its under its environment so if a system is heavily using a lidar system then it will be harder for that system to be able to react positively in an environment if an attacker is using some of these type of methods or more or or more effective methods like a like a well placed uh cannon of some sort with a specific type of nozzle now this is the as is state which was explained what kind of chaos you could have checked into a system using simple materials available to you we did not illuminate it with 904 nanometer light which is readily available from other sources that'll make it more that'll make it give a bigger return in effect we didn't haven't had time yet to also put a little bit of what's called chaff in there small pieces of wire to give you a radar reflection the current generation Priuses use laser and radar together light our and radar together for speed now if you'll check the the one of the big problems is a lack of sophisticated processing on the lidar and radar I'll have better data on that we're able to get some active analysis on there in a military system or in a police system you'll you'll code the signal you'll have a number of pulses is specific spacing that identifies the signal that appears to be lacking now in these systems which means we don't know what's going to happen to get three or four hundred of them in a city block in a traffic jam as well so this is once again what would happen to it just with things you could buy at the grocery store and does this really work there's a mold cycle called a gold wing and there's one with 101,000 miles on it that's been tested in many lidar encounters you can cut the lidar detection range from 2,000 feet down to under 400 feet by coding the reflective surfaces you can also there are things you can use which are meant to jam lidar which single point surface lidar and if you were to send this through a small reflective cloud it would cause the cloud to appear illuminated in a much wider spread because there's no pulse coding so you send a pulse out you get a pulse back as opposed to sending a group of spaced pulses and getting something back further research in the fall if all comes out right we're going to be able to have some better test equipment and hopefully for a short-term loan of two lidars we're going to test it in a real stereo stereo vision type environment with the active things that a more knowledgeable attacker would employ and they're going to include seeing what you can do with limited because we've got a very small size area we're allowed to do GPS research because of the potential for interference we've got a very small test range for this we're going to see if you have an autonomous vehicle with which self-guided it's using radar and lidar and seeing if there's what I call low budget under a thousand dollar tax you can do to go ahead and cause great issues with an autonomous vehicle so yeah like we said like do not do this unless you have the money to do it and you're having the funding like we do well not that much money but still and then also we had the we didn't have enough stuff to test like the organic powders we were trying to get really fine weed which is there's a whole scientific process to getting really fine weed and there's a whole danger about combusting and just really small dry particles so you know we we wanted more equipment we wanted more stuff to test and if we had that we could do a more ad conclusive proof of concept on this so thank you I'd like to thank you all for this opportunity and uh we're really glad we could uh share this information here at DEF CON this is uh some of our first time here so really excited thank you and thank you and give these young gentlemen credit they did a lot of very hard work trying to number different substances and for someone asked I heard someone crowd ask how does a cd reflect visible light and absorb infrared the answer is that they use an infrared laser to burn holes in the cd and to read the cd it's designed to trap light it's a little uh photon trap in there so it would look totally silver to you and me but at that particular frequency of light it's invisible so it's a little conundrum I don't know um what sort of chaos could be done with that information but I'm sure you'll think of it thank you