Hello everybody if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always my own personal demigod. It's Tom. What's up, buddy? Oh friends. He's lower in the pantheon than me See, I'm I'm the Zeus you're like, uh, I Don't want to give you like Apollo maybe like Mercury. I guess there you go. They're somebody like that You know what I get the job done. That's all that matters. Yeah, sure All right, but also joining us this week. We're very happy to have him on the show for the first time Mr. James Tinsdale, how you doing brother? Good to have you Thank you for having me and I honestly amazing to be on like I know we tried to do it a while back But it's amazing to have me on and to see you guys because we talk talk lists a few times in die horn and okay Oh and stuff, but it's amazing to be on there. Just just to talk sigma or general say Thank you for having me We I couldn't have a more fun conversation teed up because tonight We are going to talk about the gods of the mortal realms and we will create the definitive list of who is the best and who is the worst of the gods of AOS who reigns Supreme at the top and who is down at the bottom maybe time for a demotion out of Godhood So but of course first The news Tom, what do we got not I mean, I don't think there was really much news this week, right? It's pretty quiet week No How about that rumor engine? It's a 40k thing next I don't know. It has like a spool like some of the KO models Next okay, so there was this thing that happened on Monday That wasn't just five models like what they got yesterday for 40k Sure, sure And so There was a thing that happened and we saw a bunch of new models And we saw a bunch of models that we had seen before but framed in the crag nose release and it's exciting Yes. Yes. So Tom and I did a reveal show Monday night to talk about this because there was certainly enough to talk about but but James What's your feeling on this stuff, man? What do you think of the models here that you saw? What do you like I've got I'm just gonna kind of cycle through these as we're as we go through our conversation Yeah, so like vampire lady radical the beast unleashed, right? What do you think of all this stuff? Okay, so a few things one amazing that we've got radical and boots a radical without boots Yeah, everybody's super psyched for war for a car. I think you'll be great hobby conversion You know for some vampire lords. I think he's a great kid Amazing to see that. I will say the very divisive and then go in Lord sort of Lady kit that many had fantastic beams on all we come into that. I'm very pro the vanguard model Because I think it's nice to explore. I'm a very busy big present evil village this week You know, it's all Friday huge into vampire super sites in the green laws models final reveal was Could be better time for me because I'm now contemplating doing the great thoughts army, you know like in a big way, which I was not doing before but I'm super psyched. I do think it's amazing because I really like the device of conversation between The community. It's I love that people don't like it. I love that people love it You know, it's it's nice to see that engagement because I don't know about you guys in the US UK we've had a Year of I was absent hobby, you know, it's nice to get that back, isn't it? And to see people just go for it and fight for the Vangorian Lord. So I'm big into it I will say I will say though that Of all the things they showed Everybody loves a good dialogue. Don't they sure those new dialogue models or everybody's moving about online for the next three years So those kits look really cool. I'm gonna see a lot of them I'll probably kill some of them and I'm sure I'll come back. I'll kill some more and I'll see them again So, yeah, super excited to see well pretty much all the final reveals I mean, what do you guys think though?   Yeah, right like so like like so They're certainly in the genre. They're certainly precedent for it So like I'm not I'm not hating on any of that and I and I love that some people love it, right? It's just not something that really grabs me. I love the grandma the grandma on wolf sure like I am down for her She is amazing. I'm glad that we we still got a little bit of of I am blanking on the name now Do you mean the city with the polar bears with the big hat? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes Kids live there. You're sorry. I'm glad the the Zarian princess survived the end times. It's all I'm saying Riding in on her wolf. No, I And I love the witch hunters like I saw that like there is there's nothing I want more right now than a true order of Azier like army or force sure like like I just I Hope I go to bed every night hoping That just for an army of lunatic religious fanatics out of Azier. That's what you want, right? Yeah, that's yeah Yep, yep, that's I want sharp pointy sticks and guns and hats and trench coats and like all of it I want all of it. I love that like we started with one or two Depending on you know how you live in Kerr City and then now we have two more and so they're multiplying and so I'm hoping it's just a matter of time They're just gonna keep Like let them sneak in until suddenly we have in our codex coming down.  Let's go. It's a four guys It's called because we haven't really seen that from UW before right I'm just releasing two guys as a kid all the way by hundreds. This is a sigma. I was like So it's really cool. It's interesting to see that. I think yeah, I totally agree. So that's what excites me Like that's what gripped me about these releases like crag knows is fine He's gonna make a lot of people happy and I'm glad for that, you know, and But again, it's the city's thing marks up the witch hunters. That's what grabbed me yeah for me it's interesting because You only care about this Lynette release. Well, I mean, obviously this is all of this is against the backdrop of the two greatest They have the best one is ever made in the history of mankind sure so like it's you know This life all others and all universes are existences. So it's tough Now, you know, I said these reveals my basic answer would be I think crag knows is cool.   It's literally just it's yeah it's a it's a rationalization lying engine, right and it but like you but these things are formed in the subconscious, right and You can try to talk yourself in or out of it But in the end you like what you like and whatever reasons you came up with they can be right or wrong Maybe they are what's there or not. I think we all believe we have much better insight into our own minds than we do and Here's the thing Regardless of the reasons that people picked like for example on the Vangorian Lord You know, some people said I don't like it because it like why does it have two torsos and you know There's even like two belly buttons. It's just funny assuming they I guess she's wearing armor but assuming there's one under there and You know, it looks like two good models smooch together, right into one bad model or whatever You know a couple different takes like that and here's the thing I don't disagree with any of those points and whether that is really the reason they don't like it or not is pretty Irrelevant right the boo that they felt that they are evincing this sort of visceral reaction is true right and At the same time for me, I Like it right my instinctual reaction is yes And when you say those things I'm like no That's that's kind of a thing that I think I like about it because it's this weird horror creature that makes no Anatomical sense and like is just strange and alien and to me that's cool Right like and and I don't know, you know Maybe this just comes from my own taste my own personal sense of experience You know looking at like D&D monsters, which are way weirder than anything in Warhammer Like I mean the number of really like out there weird D&D monsters isn't even like I Mean Warhammer's like down here. It can't even see D&D monsters. They're so up in the stratosphere of the weirdness, right? And so for me, this was this was great I do think that people who said oh, I'm sad because cragnos feels like he should have been this beast of chaos God and Not a destruction thing like it's not like one look. I'm sorry beast of chaos players I gotta I gotta tell you a hard truth here.  That's I'm bits being mean I like beast of chaos actually quite a lot. I have that army We got one centaur unit that doesn't mean you get to own sensor centaurs, okay? So like centaurs can be bigger. I mean centeroid Things can be bigger. Okay, I asked words have to write Thank you. Yes Yes, and like and those models go way back to right like bull centaurs I remember, you know playing back in the mid 90s and my buddy had bull centaurs that were way older than that Right the very old from the the popat days So and now obviously we had Karnathi recently that centaurs It's just it's just a form of a body like you know a four-legged lower half and a top Humanoid upper half and it can have lots of things, right? Can't wait can't wait for us to get our Wemmicks. So yeah, sure man. Absolutely. Yes. We're like, yeah We're like the Wemmicks, dude. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good call man. It's not like going nuts with it But anyways, so like but that all being said, okay So for all you beast players, don't worry. I haven't abandoned you. I'm just saying like at the same time It is a funny aesthetic that doesn't seem to like have a home in the rest of destruction, right? It was regardless of whether you think like Centaurs only belong and beasts of chaos like okay, whatever man like it is a hard left turn For all of the destruction. So I totally get that and agree with that, right? and like I Understand why when I said it's destruction and everybody went And nobody believed me I was like, okay, like I said, you could either I believe you sure sure I know better if I plant a flag like that then I like I'm saying something Okay Um So like to me the issue with this guy. I Like him. He's cool My honest answer. I don't know that I love him more than like the dracon from creature caster That's a similar draconic sort of centeroid model, right and I just feel like honestly my answer with him is I Don't know that he's weird enough Like I feel like we should have leaned more into something else. He does feel a little I don't know wrote Right As to how he is now I'm gonna get him a hundred percent. I'm gonna get him. I like the model But I'm not sure I love the model. That's the difference like I love those two slanash models love 10 out of 10 So that's my feeling I Was certainly great. I also think the crag nose for me personally. I was expecting something more Fantastical, you know, well, I'm an actually a center, you know, which but then my friend told me price destruction He was massively into it.  It's okay to not like those walls, you know It's perfectly okay because they're trying to do what they feel is in the best interest of their IP Like, you know, we I think we all get that right. Yeah, but it's absolutely okay Vince to have that baby and say, you know what this ball is boring, you know, he's a straightforward center He looks like he could be in the recent chaos army. I Was expecting wings because you see the search models. Yeah, and you think I Don't forgive you for the book, but okay weak we can I'm starting to soften that we're never gonna forgive the book Yes, but then we see craggy and you think You know, but then also destruction players love him. So, you know, that's the GW condominium do my all wrong, right? Some people love it some people won't but yeah, that's what they go for. Yeah, practice promises to us something new in Destruction like up until this point literally, I mean what we're what? Six years into a OS. Yeah, we're six years into a OS and we have not seen a lick of new destruction I mean other than the new you mean like a completely I'm trying to like pack what you mean there because you're so you have Expansion of giants right we have or goblins giants and ogres. Yeah, congratulations. That's what we have the launch of a OS six years Right, right. I give it and so with crag knows like it promises something new Something different a different design direction a different just an entire horizon and that aspect of it. I love I can't wait till they crack the code with elementals as well It's like they they're they're going to have to do something with like elemental can or something like that in Destruction like not being aligned with civilization returning things to their natural order Elements stuff like that. Like there's so much promise there and I can't wait to see that does like them finally kind of crack that code And then painting wise it'll be amazing. It'll be a wonderful opportunity He does have a great muscle structure like they're really good at doing musculature the sculptors I don't know who sculpted this but like the muscle structure on this guy is is outrageously good so Even just like very little touches like the way some of the sub muscle structures are stretching Given his position. It's just like really really anatomically strong. So Yeah, we have Like we was I was like Can't wait for the Vince conversion Yeah, I mean we gotta get I will wait. I'll wait to see what you do and I'm like, you know what? I'll try to do that myself. Yeah, we gotta see I somebody said but if what if he was a big orc? I say why not a big orc? I've been talking about big orc for a while and My guess is given his size because he seemingly is about the size of like a mega gargant from what people can tell from the base comparison Yeah, he looks very very similar So my thought is then it would be very possible to Depending on the kit, but if not, you can saw you can saw anything away. It's just Variant conversion into an orc. No, like I think yeah exactly. Yeah, turn him into an orc Yeah, like you can be and what you'd use is like a 75 mil orc or the head of a bust from an orc Depending if you got the right scale bust. Nope. Nope. Stop. I have it. Okay. I'm ready You remember this? Yeah, go for it man. You can use the normal giant face Okay, sure But get the mask from the rogue idol The wooden orc-y mask, yeah It like if his face is concealed under that you wouldn't know that he's not an orc It's a good call Green skin by big if way that's that's well, that's what I'm saying like you paint him green skin Yeah, you paint him like an orc. You could also use the mega gargant Executioner head because then all you need to do is build out the little tusks. Yeah Yeah, because I mean the rest of the heads covered so I can be anything So I don't get ahead of topic, but how does God Jack feel the orcs following factor? I said, I think we're gonna see real soon. That's what that's I'm excited to see how that story plays out Does he just like I don't know that any one of the things is I'm not sure if this guy's like an active God You know like Sigmar and the rest these gods are very active, you know some more than others, right? Marathi is clearly like a very active God. She's in there like taking over cities and stuff, you know She's in the mix I'm not sure this guy's that kind of leader, you know I think he's more just running around being the living earthquake and where he goes He's like as I said before my guess for him and I stand behind this is he's like the rabbit that the Greyhounds chase at the track You know like the rabbits not in charge of the dogs, but wherever the rabbit goes the dogs follow You know, that's that's kind of what I hope he'll go smash and stuff and then all the goblins are like Yeah, let's go smash and stuff, right For me, I think that He I think they're gonna they're gonna punch for a bit and then be mates They punch for a bit then they're mates Yeah, I think that that's probably what's gonna happen is that they're gonna punch for a bit and then be like Yeah, let's go smash those golden boys Are those frogs let's go punch in frogs And yes, I did see the the mural of the story of Cragnos Which was really cool like him defeating his kin and becoming king and then getting trapped under the mountain by You know crow or fighting the drakes and then clearly pissing off the servants of dracothean IE croak and the rest of them who are all like who are all sort of sworn to drake off and to the god To the god beast and then them imprisoning him in beast grave and him busting out Like it was a great cave painting like mural story. It was totally readable. So that was nice I will say this so like I'm really interested in because I do feel seraphon probably not displaced But probably the most oddest faction in terms of law. I've done a space wizards So I hope the croak story grail and seraphon in a more origin story with Cragnos Like I've not read broken real progress, but I hope croak has a very prominent role when it grounds the seraphon Into a more meaningful faction if that makes sense sure I hope croak shows up with his spaceships and tries to shoot Cragnos and then the shield just bounces the lasers off That's what I want Again, he might just like I got a better model. Yeah, exactly. I just want Like the battle of who who who like can Cragnos defeat a spaceship? That's that's what I have these are the important questions we need and the answer is yes Okay, so That was where I'm a vest and you know Nothing else. There was nothing from today. We have no black library books coming which I wouldn't honestly care that much anyways I Will say this though about what happened first how glad were you guys that it was a lot of it I supposed to say like if it was in the commentary reader, for instance, did you guys enjoy it more? Well, you know, so I haven't been but Vintaz. I Love I love going over there. This is fine this year. I have no problem with it I'm glad they decided to do it in this format this year. It's good But like let me tell you right now 2022. I'll be back over in the UK for it a hundred percent I mean the like Warren Mufest is also Golden Demon, right? So that's kind of the the motivating force there, right? Yes, there will be a backlog absolutely of things to submit but the problem is with that Tom So does everybody else who's really good and better than me That's the problem. They've had a lot longer to work on some of these. Yeah, exactly like that's a that's a challenge for everybody But we'll see what happens and then obviously we've got the only other previews I think that we as the AOS community are looking forward to our Do we get anything on boxed games day? Do we get a new like dual box or something like that? Only only battle feet or battle to battle to gothic the announcement of battle to gothic Yes, space battles in the mortal realms That's when you can be like we told all of you don't listen Fight a game in the box games what I would immediately go online and just lose my mind I'll be into it. I'm like, I'm pure the immediately immediately. I want I didn't I didn't buy dreadfully But they may have me here, right? Yeah, we may see the I'd net for band or we might wait they might wait on that I don't know like that's one of the things we know is still waiting And then obviously This Saturday is the big show. We're all expecting a OS 3.0. Let's get it announced. It's May now Let's just get it out there We can begin the two-month eight-week ramp up to the launch of the edition. We're all excited for it Show us what's coming show us the the box that we're gonna launch with Yes, make this here Is it the long long rumored? 40 KD well to lineup No No, no, no, I mean it's the it's the AOS I What's the saga like that? What's the big apocalypse? AOS apocalypse? Yeah, I mean look if they if they announced a whole new entirely new Eldar range, I'm sure the internet would lose its mind like absolutely But no Let's just do this. Let's just get this out here so we can see we can stop it Like you're not gonna have a better chance to announce this than this weekend. So Okay At any rate and then that's it that's basically the news it was other than that other ironically other than that it was a quiet week Yeah, I mean other than a whole bunch of very popular models sure well And it's some which are very Marmite and I love it again I think like don't be mean to people you can hate it. You can love it. That's all cool Just don't be mean to other people. It's pretty simple pretty simple Yeah, cuz I think before the 40k reaction to the sisters about it a bit else was very different to the new blood reaction We had yeah, we didn't see the community. They were like cool more broken stuff.  Yeah, we'll paint a hundred of those battle suits if we need to we are ready for you to see think my community was like Very toxic about the limit of folks. So it's just interesting to see well That's true Although I would say the wider 40k community, especially in that chat was none too pleased that they only saw a new sister's Models like it was another now the sisters players in that chat were like, yes, this is great We are excited bring on the the holy Lord of terror whatever she's called. I'm not sure the yeah, whatever her official title is sister superior sure Yeah, yeah, and but the rest of the people were were more of a thumbs down vote. I would say Yeah Every time a video comes on the like this is the lion the lion is coming down whether he's gonna come up any minute now It's coming on sure Like where is he? Yeah, I just feel like that is the 40k videos When that eventually happens, you know some year a week from now two months from now two years from now two decades from now Right, it's gonna break the internet right people would just completely lose their mind.   So that's it That's whether whether it's because we'll have our space and it's about off legal right Like I told you the line was coming back in 95. I told you We got you we feel you All right So let's get to some pick of the week James. What would you like to? Share with everybody today. Yeah, well, I'm gonna shamelessly self promote. So I'll give you for this But recently I've helped which you need out on the just plate at all who have been on one weekly before We're doing some new battlements.  We're trying to feature every faction Every interesting army would try to play tough lists not super tough obviously because at the end of the day We do want to play one two turns. I know some toms less for instance We wouldn't feature because they probably kill you in the two turns with KO but on the plus side we do try to Play lists that we wouldn't genuinely take to events and this week We're Tom's favorite. We are featuring chaos. So if people want to come over and join us. We are 7 7 p.m. GMT there you go, but Everybody's welcome. So just come in and chat talk to us We do have to talk about the game which talk to have in general, you know Because most people paint the log anyways, hopefully it's about a rep format that people enjoy they can participate in It will help reach out so Really, yes, and also to answer a question the chat. Yes, James does have a sleeping child in the next room So yes, that is why he is speaking in a in a lower octave there Yeah, I'm not as animated as I normally would be I know some people see me before I think I'm pretty animated very Excitable, but my door is right above me. So I am trying to not make her because my wife might actually help me but no, but It's great. Yeah, if you could join us with this, I'd help you awesome wonderful. I will have that linked down below Tom, what do you got to share with everybody? somewhat related This got shared today and I could not not recommend it. So just play Ian put together a Warhammer Fest comments generator and drop the link and it's Amazing it is a snark filled Whirlwind of Just all the all the Everything you'd expect to be spewed out in the comments section including things Vince would say for example and I like so I'm gonna recommend it. It's funny click through it It's gonna look very familiar if you've ever been on one of these live chats It's it generates a bunch of random comments of the types of things that you're gonna see and it's amazing That will definitely be linked down below. I love it Also for myself my pick of the week is gonna be you know, I can't help but notice that people might have some undead they're painting They're here pretty soon. There might be a lot of dead flesh People are trying to paint and our good buddy and all-around amazing painter Sam Lenz Just put up a really nice tutorial about doing wonderful gray dead flesh. It's about a 20-minute tutorial It is fantastic. I will link Sam's channel and that video down below if you are someone who is looking to get some Some direction. I've had this question a lot come in on the channel of like how to make flesh look dead and gray And like how to make it to look interesting Well, here is the tutorial for you from from one of the masters himself So I will link that go check it out give Sam a sub He makes incredible content and he is one of the best painters In the world and he's giving you away all his he's giving you all of his secrets and knowledge for free. So check it out Okay, uh, let's talk about some hobby time James You as mentioned have a very small child. So that's probably taking up a considerable amount of time But have you gotten any hobby recently? What you've been working on? Yeah, I've always played along with ladies felt, you know So but I am painting my lumineff. I've just finished Teclas this week a catalogue I've painted I've started on a stone mage Which I'm starting on the I want to see the illuminated rocks, you know, she sits on that She's floating on with the runes and stuff. So runes is probably not the right term to describe our project but She's floating with the highlighted a you know on the graphics and Elvin budget so I'm painting those water Sigils wards Elvin sigils that they put around it. I'm trying to In my mind, I'm trying to think about what Teclas puts around the gash before he dispels them to change Yeah, I cannot remember what the term is. But either way, um Painted some lumineff. I recently finished my KO so, uh We so So that is it don't know there's an eternal struggle. Okay, because I obviously put a lot of events I make no secret of I play very tough lists filled lists, you know, I like to play In the spirit of the game, but I also like to win, right? Um But and it's in top You really have this internal struggle where why don't we just take KO to every event? because because it's our favorite army and Brock is both probably my favorite model and I knew about it. No, I'm not in the best place Um, because obviously you take back something right if you really wanted to It balances out though. Like it's a really hard and you don't take berek gnar and it's fine So you'll do well enough. You have a shot at winning. It'll be fine Agreed 100 percent agreed, but then when the day comes up like I can't do it, you know, I look at brock and I'm like brock I'm talking about it when I get we'll talk about it when I get out But you're saying in the shelf He's looking at you like he knows and he's like, why do you why do you even paint me? Like I don't know And it's an internal monologue for about half an hour And you're in the car and you're still thinking about it, you know, you you've gained two you're still thinking about it So ultimately Why don't I just take KO but I am painting all of my new minute because there was a new father Um, I told I don't know your father as well, but it's also a case of I've commissioned my daughter Kayla with terrible terrible pike. Um, because I didn't want to have time To to paint well, so I'm enjoying my new minute because I'm painting it myself And I do try and paint better every album, you know, I try to tweet about it. I try my zee job. I was really proud of I'm trying to paint better and better however, um Only my own game studio Well, keep it so many years is tough. Um, and I also I I'm losing more and more time so Lumineth might be my last stop in terms of painting, but I really enjoyed technus stomage. I will say this though. Um I'm going to paint the braid lords fixed I'm quite into that quite into their models. That's why I've undercoated them. They're ready to go so Lumineth so To answer the same question with five answer I'm painting Lumineth It's a good answer. You made up for all you all you did was borrow tom's time because check this out tom. What are you been painting? Well I can see you Oh, look at you. Is that all your cursed city stuff? It is. It is. Okay I've put all of these models together that counts them from sprues I've cleaned them And I and I've not glued them to bases.  No just for painting. I did the same thing You just you just get I actually like when they have the little peggies that just slot in there because then you can just Yeah, cool. I'll work on this place and pop them right back out So BAM, that's right folks hobby I will say this Tom. What is your favorite kind of seat model? Uh, it's the witch hunter I don't even have to look at it like I glance it's the witch hunter like I painted the ogre first so I guess that I don't I don't know if that's because he's my favorite or because I really wanted to to paint him but um But yeah The witch hunter is good. He's primed the witch hunter is primed over there. He's just waiting He'll he'll become a tutorial The ogre model super excited there because I feel like he's the best ogre model they've released Yeah, even even included the tyrant. I've asked like I'm super he's so good because he's quite he's quite dynamic And like he's quite interesting and I want I want much more of him Yeah, much more of him if I could order it I'd be like 10 of those please. Thank you Yeah, I want an ogre army that looks like him like I look I know this is probably on the border of heresy But I've never liked the gut plate aesthetic. Sorry um, I I always like the the That ogre that's more like an empire ogre kind of like the classic empire ogre from like more time Which is what this one feels like the aesthetic homage to write that classic uh empire more time ogre Um back when you could take ogres in your empire army still um way back in the day That's the one I like that's that's my that's my more Favorite aesthetic. So yes, I I get a whole new ogre army if they did them like that guy be sweet um Anything else you you assemble tom anything else? I don't want to jump over top of you No, I mean that's good. You're good. I'm very proud of you. I really mean I did I did real work. Yeah. No, that's you're good. Uh, I finished up the 10 skeletons from uh From cursed city Did a nice video out of them because I wanted to I wanted to experiment with them So there'll be a video coming with them in the future Uh, they did did them all in like non-metallic metal Just as a way to kind of push myself and experiment around with stuff Um did get the as I mentioned the witch hunter sitting over there ready to go I figured out the conversions for smash bat and smash friends Uh, but most of my time this week has been spent getting this model prepped up and ready to go Which I haven't got to start painting yet, but it's just primed and that is Uh, oh But but she is a little different This is uh, this is bella core So using the uh, she's up on on sigmar's head there. We gave her the whip She's got one of the keeper's heads and we even molded her to be like the half like I gave her the half breast on one side with the the um I don't know. What do you call that this thing corset? I guess that the slanash models wear So, uh, yeah, she has the whip. She does have the whip. Yep. She's got the the keeper's whip Uh, I really like how this came out I really like just the the thing of her standing up there looking down at people Um, I it's the more bull head fits well, I think I love that you've used the super head as the base as well. Amazing. Oh, it's just like It's like she's desecrated his statue. She's like right Foresidles this guy is just a little so like it's just I love everything about it. Gotta tear him down. Absolutely So I am really excited about this one.  She'll have the bejeweled wings instead of the chained wings So Yeah, I would seem 300 So every keeper's interest now is like coveted rubies Yes Uh, so I'm excited for that model. Hopefully I'll get a chance to actually Uh paint some this week. This has been took that conversion took longer than it should have just because of that green stuff Work doesn't seem extensive, but I am very slow with it And then I had to wait for things to try and then fix it and figure out the base and all that I'll say this if you don't want it I'll have it. I You can you can just post it to the uk it's fine. So never issue. I'll take it much appreciated Uh, so I um But I'll I'll get a chance to get back into painting here Once work stops killing me this week. Uh, okay so Very good. Let's uh, look gentlemen. I think we've uh, we've covered everything else. It's time title fight Round 20. Okay. Here we go. It's like how do you want to do the card? Yeah Let's have a god fight. Okay So Here we go Up on the screen. I have Little pictures For all of the gods now. Let's talk about what gods are on here It is all the things that they have called gods okay And i'm not going for any dead gods not going for any old world gods No, there is no has should get out of here with that. Okay. That's not real but No, you consider the elemental spirit of haish. No, is there they're worshiped and venerated. Don't care No god beasts This is the this is the the big boys and girls only Okay That's it. Also because there's only so much room on this page where I could fit images So I had to cut somewhere like sorry Like so, you know the brass tacks. Yeah, that's I got eight seats at the table who's sitting down, right exactly. There's there's only so many Uh, there's only so much room. I could I could fit this all So here's how we're gonna do this We're gonna go god by god And we're gonna have a little discussion as to where we think they go. There are five tiers Okay, I didn't use like the s through d or anything. This is just one through three four five One being the best five being the lowest Okay So Uh, we're gonna go through the god say which which tier do they belong in and then we'll left and right like left Most is the most powerful. So whoever sits in this spot right here This is the best god In there now we can move people later, right like when we come in later We can be like, okay, do they are they oh, they go here But they're nope. They're better than that so they can somebody else can fall down You know what I'm saying? It doesn't have to be standard tier maker type of situation Everybody with me? Okay. All right well Then gentlemen, let's begin Okay In this god fight by the way, what are the what are the ground rules? How do we how do we position them? We should talk about that real quick You can use game rules. You can use story You can use conjecture and personal feeling You can use anything you want. This is just you arguing for where the god goes. All right So Because some of these guys have game rules and some of them don't you can talk about their followers Whatever All right Okay Now gosh We start on the top. We're going to start with with big the lord of death the ruler of shayish right Stole a bunch of magic from some dark elves Died like seven times Consistently loses syscaven Uh, just this is biased right just got housed by teclis in a recent book Yeah So Now where are we putting him? What's what's the vote james? How you feeling about negash? It's tough because you know, you look at the great necromancer. Do you think Self acclaimed that's like me saying i'm the best game developer, you know, you just put that out there You just maintain it. It doesn't necessarily it's true, right? It's like he tells everybody but we see the opposite, right? Okay, I went into his house Cut him into pieces His more talks had to save him. I think when teclis banished him to shayish.  You know, what have you done for me lately? And right now?  No one remembers now because it's just a memory I think at this point. I think the gash has to really think about What he wants from shayish life, you know, I agree at the moment It's not going well because everybody else seems to be having a great time And he's sat in shayish going I banished again like what happened. I went literally Right now He went into somebody he went into high each and Anished like The great decrements. So I think it's a shame. They right now put the mid card because I respect the power But I don't respect the legacy. So I'll put him at three. All right your votes at three Mid card solid solid reasoning all around. I like that tom. What about you? Uh, I mean a three or a four like he's lost so many times Like it's real hard for me to put him even at a three Like it seems like his mo is losing Because even in his big win a necro quake He's still lost right. He still didn't actually achieve his goals And and all of his work was undone by techless who did it like who net techless was like Oh, and also I'll just fix all that Yeah quick there to know because I would just fix that Right, right I'm ashamed because like if you're cataclysm and you're arguing with the cash You're like, yeah, I died.  Okay. I got lucky.  That's right Yeah, he didn't even have the he didn't even have his like pet for most of that fight Yeah, the guy was like I got cut to bits and you just got poofed Yeah into the room like I was like come on. This isn't scuba day. I was like I would be if I was cataclysm I would be annoyed in my bowed castle And I'm like, you know what I've got plans. I think that's why he wasn't in the mirror You know that he was one of the missing mortars in the mirror Yeah, he called him and he just he left the phone off the hook. He's like nah He's like I'm here now. He's like I'm in my castle now Yeah, he's like I went into the eight points put my castle down. I literally built a castle in a realm of chaos and you couldn't handle An elf who peered from nowhere on a mountain on a battle you've already You know what the worst part about that was It wasn't even techless that killed him. It was a bunch of dudes with laser beams I know like Yeah, they did just Yeah, I agree I think we got to put it down here because he's the first official placement Well, I'm gonna put him in the lead spot now since he's he's for right now. He's number one into three Okay Okay, but we'll see if he stays see if he stays Okay He look you got to respect the man because he or the I guess he's Persistent he is persistent like tenacity. He is a 10 out of tenacity. He puts it back in there, right? Yeah Yeah, so a skeletor because sure, but I'm just like He loses all the time, but he does still own shai sh like through his his own machinations He does have more or less a realm under his control and that's pretty good So There you go. I want to say this though the soul wars video they were dropped I just punch, you know, when you watch that you get still gets you know, you know with with the souls and like Sigmar Realizing the dab stone cast and stuff, but the gas was a big part of that. He's a big part of the soul wars.  So he's good for that Yeah, I guess I mean when you look at even his followers like lady o joined up with chaos in the next book Catacross isn't answering. He's often in the eight points and the vampires are really just like look Let's take this opportunity and build our own kingdoms like enough of this guy So he's in a rough spot right now. He's on the downswing. Okay. Yeah so, uh Let's talk about so if we're going to talk to gosh Then we got to talk the person who stuck him in his spot in his place very recently Let's talk about teclis uh The most arrogant being in the history of the moral realms and the world that was The guy who always thinks he's the smartest guy in the room and is right maybe 40 of the time uh, the He consistently like the one of the few people who's made a whole race only to scrap it and start over Uh, whoops uh But beloved deep kid Yeah And uh, he is universally the worst father in the mortal realms um But he is a god of magic And and he's a god But his main thing that he did was convince every all of his children to worship the elemental spirits. Sure so like He's a god technically but really like He's like now we need to we need to worship these these mountains because Of reasons sure. Um, I just I put him just a hair's breath ahead of negash. Okay. Okay. That's where he is for me You're saying he's in three but but ahead of negash in three. Yeah, just a touch. Okay. Just a touch Okay, all right. I mean Being that bad of a dad Sure, sorry Okay, uh, I now he also does have now now in his defense like so it's let's fall back on this He does have a model in game and I would argue he's much more usable in his army than negash is in any of the forces where negash can show up so Techless does have that going for him like he is a force on the battlefield to be reckoned with You know the man's putting out spells on whatever value he wants. He's like counter this Right. Uh, he's he's pulling a trinity from the matrix every time he casts a spell Home of the tech nato Uh, you know, he's uh And and all that on a reasonably costed 600 point body Uh So that that's you know, I'm just saying Now James what you're feeling there? Where are you putting him? It's tough isn't it because I've just painted himself quite biased. I will say Number one of the charts for me, but clearly number seven in your hearts. Uh, I will for me techless both arrogant and profound both studied and Guarded I would say To tom's point. He does try to lead his people in a positive way. He's like look, I'm just a guy pants. Yes Back in the gash. We'll talk we'll talk about that later. But You should be what with nature. You should focus on the spirits He should be part of peace with your soul um To me, he's the top of the chart is my favorite guard. He's number one. Um I also caveat that with the fact that should be biased. So, uh, yeah, because he created the deep kip Now we don't forgive him That's important to state, right?  But It's because we're coming home. Yeah You know when people say they see the light, yeah, the deep can literally walk into hiding should see the light But we are coming home Yeah, we're gonna have our own lakes gonna have our own like reservoirs No longer do we have to hide in the abyss and watch dark shadows and things We don't even want to down look at flyovers. We are coming home. Yeah and technus Created our home. So we forgive him a little bit And I put him I do think the game works on the table He's probably one of the best right because he's usable. He's coherent with his army There's a great conversation about techless armies or non-techless armies How do you tech for him? I think that's a really cool conversation to have and And the way it should be You don't have that with the cash These points are very high So all of those factors combined I put texas top of my board, you know, if it's I know it's draft week in the u.s. NFL draft Yeah, he's number one on my board if I've got the first overall chevrolet. I'm sorry But I'm gonna go with texas. All right. How would we feel about texas in like a mid tier two position? I can accept it but not not officially Okay, he might fall down to low tier two Tom, how you how you feel about that? I I can accept because he did like He did Just fight negash sure and like walk away. Yeah, we know he's above negash. No doubt He did need laser beams to help him out, but he's that he was the winner But he out thought him he knew what was going on. He brought him back And he's like, huh my army went he won through the power of friendship. Yes Well, I'll say this though before he did that he went into the gash's house It was like I'm gonna put down a marker As he went in with his boys And he smashed the movie as he smashed the lens he put down the sigil was like just because I can when he left I didn't really understand it. Did it really get out to one? I was like But you lost a lot of boys for that like a lot of elves died because you wanted to do what? And but anyway We haven't looked that because apparently elves souls are quite rare, but he came back And then he put the snack down on the gash in his own house That's what said Okay, so what I'll say is I can do too I can't do higher than two because I can't forgive him for the cows. Okay. That's fair enough right now. Let's talk about He may end up falling but let's let's move him down here to cheer to you for now I think too is that I think he's above me. I think you go Yes, yeah, okay. I'm gonna pick randomly here because I don't want to do all the order and then go around So we're gonna we're gonna mix it up here a little bit. Okay All right, so next up Grim near let's talk grim near okay so grim near the The exploded god of the fire slayers. He exploded But he was a god He is still around He still breathes through his children in the urgold and they believe that by collecting the urgold and hammering it into their skin And then exhausting its power. They release Grim near out into the world and if enough of them do that enough times that there will be enough grim near Re-released for him to to recombobulate himself into a god He did die and explode fighting a giant worm So that is a thing that happened Uh, he is the father of probably the most boring model range In there in the entire game.  He's he's bottom He's he's down to your five Court's in session and toms about tapes down.  Yes, but He pays his taxes So I mean what I'll say is this like You know what I I can't defend him. Okay, because here here's the reality Uh, here's the reality. He gave his job To go trek at the end of the old world And then took it back, baby Sure Who knows he's like in the lore in the books like he's like here. It's your job now You need to hold off chaos forever For all of it I'm gonna go do a thing and apparently that thing was fighting a worm and exploding into gold And I I don't know that he's any more responsible of a father than teclas is sure Um, so I I've been really created a failed race I've I Who who who who have made it their their point in life to pound his dead flesh into their own? So I Like just because I'm partial to fire slayers. I want to put him out of four But truly he is grim. Yeah Overruled it's a five. Okay, so Here we go down in the five you go grim Absolutely nothing to add to that because for me it's baffling that not only did he lose to the work He exploded into loads of pieces of gold They his own boys Decide to put into their own flesh rather than save and exhaust to the point where he evaporates into the atmosphere I guess they're hoping it eventually rains grim near. I'm not sure what's gonna happen there, but yes, uh, he's like Look, you want to get higher tier stop exploding. That's I don't know what else to tell you Here's you on this list that lost to a not god so Be meaningful right like That's getting your bottom of the barrel, buddy. Sorry. I don't know what to tell you Okay, uh next up. Let's let's take our let's take a little stroll into the land of chaos Okay And let's go for Let's go for corn here. So let's talk about corn pops Uh, the single-minded, you know the most single-minded of the chaos gods Uh, you know good old blood for the blood god skulls for the throne of corn Uh, his army is bad for reasons that we cannot fathom He likes to make his people work in very delicate dances of extremely close Circles of power pairs and eight inch holy within for no reason Um, he's very picky with his buffs like sometimes he'll help you sometimes. He'll just make you blow up Uh, he's really greedy Yeah, because because when once people Like have earned his favor Like they don't he doesn't give like change back Like you know, like normally like if people cash in a dollar if it the thing that you bought didn't cost a dollar Do you get change back? You don't get that with them? No, like maybe he means a prayer It's odd Yeah, he's taking it all and now you gotta earn all of it back right now flip side He was like the early most successful of the chaos gods first one to really bust in strong Ending the age of myth into the age of chaos Basically overtook multiple mortal realms with his own forces, right? um oxhi was Basically under his control as well as some of the other realms Uh He like certainly has in in the sort of zealousness level of it He's right up there with the other chaos gods and you know All of the chaos gods demand a level of zealotry that you don't you don't see from the other non Cascades my point, right?  Uh, there's a really great story about that in the in the first time that uh at the dawn of the the realm gate wars Where like this bloodthirster whose name I don't remember had to explain to corn What a storm cast was and how he got punched in the face It's like uh, it's like the the loss the ritual for the detroit Uh club when uh when they don't when they're three wins you rock. That's right three wins you walk home. Yeah yep Do we think the girl she did that with the cat across gorgeous? Do oh, did does he make uh, we have to go back home and go through the back door like look I understand what you need. No, okay. Yeah, these boys are messed around Uh, you're gonna pay Now I will also say corn was the first one to lose and lose big Because he's great on the o and not so great on the d Right like yes, he took a lot of the realms over but he also has lost harder Then most of the other uh gods in the you know in the mortal realms and they're in the realm gate wars and so on Like the dude has racked up l after l after l Um in in the wars so far Mainly against storm cast which I will say that doesn't make you look good if you're losing to storm cast in the current game Uh, what never is it a lot of work against against core well and actually like they still do Like that's that's the sad thing is that because it's so offense driven low rent They're like cool The lids are like move the line up. Yeah, we're fine So All right, james, where are you putting where are you putting corn the blood god? It's tough isn't it because you want to respect the chaos gods, right because those four those those four demons or great beings Super cool. They body so much. However, he went out of the realm gates early. He got them And the liberators took it back. Okay. That's a concern over two He didn't really know what a storm cast was until someone told him, right? That's that's the second concern because you literally declared war on them Right, this guy has a very bad intelligence operation. But you just didn't know but you didn't know what it was Then number three Your brother's demons sisters Telling you to play the long game. You're like, no, okay. I've already gone on these realm gates. I'm sound I'm happy. I think you lose them all. You're like, okay, so what do we do now? I was like, oh I don't know. Um, so for me corn sadly for lack of foresight lack of presence on the board And to be completely honest, if you clip the wings of your best, um Uh, I suppose torch scarband, you know, he I don't know what he is but he involves cordway Then you only do it yourself into service. So for me, he's he's I can put it to and that's favorable But really I think he sits with the cash Yeah, yeah Tom, sorry, but I think I think his brothers are quite I was gonna say low b But I can totally do high high c. Yeah, high three High three, whatever. Yeah, these are numbers not letters, Tom. Um, It's okay. I get what you're saying. I'm with that. That's actually my vote I think he I think he overtakes negash in the pole position in three But he's in tier three because he because he did bring everything to their knees. Sure Yeah And make sigmar like run and hide at home Sure, he's like the football player that was really great in high school But now when he's like pushing middle age, there's a little bit of a punch there Uh, you know, look the question isn't just is he more powerful like sure Probably the chaos gods as a ruler more powerful than the other gods But it's not just about raw power like clearly if it was They would just show up and punch everybody to death But in overtaking the mortal realms, you know in the in the game of thrones The game of the mortal realms you either win or you die and this guy does not know how to break the wheel Like he's just going round and round and round on the thing Uh, so, you know with the the intellect of your average eight-year-old. He's just not he's not doing it I I I personally think like in an american bar. He's in the corner He sat with his little state wring on he doesn't sit down with him He's sat in the corner in the quarterback and it's like, you know, all his mates have gone a lot of It's all because of I mean, do you remember do you remember state? Yeah? Well, yeah that I You know through that pass and they're like no and he's like well, I'll tell you about it Right that was that's called with the robe gates because that's the only time I took all those robe gates Yeah, yeah, we all remember corn. What have you done? I had them for a hot minute and then what happened? Well, then I got taught off because they would take it off But so I don't have them anymore By liberators bet I could throw a football over the mountains. All right, so I live Yes, he's he's a bit too much of a a blunt instrument. Let's say right Okay, all right. Good. So there we go better than the gosh, but uh, but still he's he's pole position into your three for right now Okay, let's uh, let's talk about a god. We haven't seen yet. How about that? Shall we let's let's go for uh, Let's go for mr. Tyrion over here uh, so Tyrion brother of teclas Okay, one of these mysterious figures. We haven't seen anything of we know. He's allegedly doing something very important Right because in teclas according to teclas according to teclas unknown liar Okay Like He's doing something way more important. Very more important. He's he's tackling a threat much more, you know powerful than you Nagash, which says something about the power differential between teclas and tyrion in reflecting what they're fighting, right? Right because teclas isn't doing that Tyrion is Yeah Teclas isn't handling whatever the big bad is Now I think we have to count it as a negative This guy hasn't even shown up yet, right? Look, there's a lot of stuff going on man Centuries have passed in the mortal realms This guy has done Bupkiss like Don't get me wrong. He shows up in some of the fiction Right like there was the great fiction of him talking to uh, you know all the the various elven gods We get them the four of them together. They they meet up every so often now points in his favor He along with the other elven gods did in prison slanash Who may or may not have told us that's what we're told He she did yes. What was he there? We don't know. We don't know but that's the rumor So the rumor the teclas told us again We've got this. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So we've got this uh this Weird situation uh kc. Yes, the greenhorned rat great horned rat is down on list. He's down here That's his there's not a lot of pictures of some of these gods because they're more like ephemeral concepts So this is the best picture if you like to find anyways, um So at any rate Tyrion Here's my answer He may be more powerful than teclas and fighting a bigger threat But that's not scoring any points in my book. You got to show up to play son Okay, but he he did show up I'm ready talk to me. I I see no teclas army He I I've got I can buy the lord regent or whatever who is like his boy That's the closest I've got to his old hill. Yeah, he he stopped teclas from murdering his children So he did he he he showed up and was like, whoa daddy like Like what are you doing? You can't choke them out in their sleep Like not acceptable. And so I like I really I think he's tier one because he's like, you know what? I don't have time for this Shit, like I'm not gonna micromanage the realms You all can you busy bodies can deal with it. I'm gonna handle the stuff that really matters And I'll get involved when I have to Okay, so he's he's he is one of the only gods we've seen with a real moral compass Sure Okay, if if not murdering millions of innocent people if having that level of common sense counts to moral compass. Yes I mean So far on the list that we have he's at the top. Sure. Um and again he uh You know, like he's willing to loan his people out You know, like he's not showing up, but he's like, yeah teclas. Okay. You need some more dawn riders. Whatever Yeah, you can have some of my like Tower of light and darkness, you know sword masters like yeah, whatever all all all alone use some venari. It's fine um Like I he's like the the cool good guy Out of everybody that we have. Okay. Okay So I like for me he's tier one Now I will say It just one more quick point is favor. This is his previous incarnation, but in the old world He did have one of my favorite stories of all time So, uh, like his his arc in cane is fantastic So and he's way more compelling in that book than his than his brother And like he's not he's not afraid to go dark like he'll do it if he needs to if he needs uh if he needs to slap a Uh, uh person he will certainly step up and do it. Okay. James. Where you at on terrian? You know here in tom. I'm like, oh I can almost buy into that But I will say this if I'm techless, right? Yeah We're god brothers. Yeah, so let's say me and tom are god brothers. Okay. Thomas techless. I'm tearing And tom says I've got to go into shahish, right? And I've got to fight the great decimates. I'm like Cool, bro. I'm the war master. You know, you could take my sword. He's like, are you not coming? No I'm doing I'm doing the great work And tom's like, well, what would you be in the great work?  I watch you take hundreds of souls of slush Because I'm not a wizard so I didn't do that But I watched you do it. I was there wasn't I tom's like, yeah, yeah, you were there I'm like, exactly. So I watched you do that for hours and then when you try to abolish them Who stopped you are you did? Yeah, that's right me the war master. Yeah, so I'm all seeing all doing all intelligent. Yeah So, okay, cool. Are you gonna come with your banari to the shahish now?  Yeah, I'm busy So it concerns me That the war master of the entire urban race is not present in a very pinnacle battle He is not present in the tomb at all in the law He's not present in teclas decisions teclas obviously confers with el areo, but don't speak with tirion He's not talking to tirion saying I know you're like the god of war. So what do you think I should do? He's actually calling el areo who literally hides under the ground When war comes and it's like Do you do you think I do you think I did a good job? But it's like hey, did you it's like I knew it I knew it laryl every time I come to you I get positive reinforcement So I'm concerned with tirion because I don't actually know what he's doing That's more prevalent than helping his brother fight and change But how it how it how it's like how important is that though? It must be really important But what I would say is When it does can become apparent it'll be a real hum digger. So that said I agree with the tone that if the greater work, which sounds a lot like the gash Is more important Then losing your entire home realm to the gash and losing all your elven souls that took They Is more important than I'd love to hear that story because it can't be You are standing at the gates so that I should wait for our cure. I think that cannot be the answer So I'm excited for that. But for me tirion I agree with tommy could be in one because I think he is a great warrior And in terms of godhood he would stand to turn like he would stand at the gates of the sea and say look Sigma look it's up. Okay. This is gonna happen.  Okay, but I'll give it to him Just because it sounds like he's doing something important But it also sounds like you could have any you could Lois we've got to take what's in the box. It could be anything. It could be a boat. Okay. That's what I'm here in here but We'll give him points because he did save the idk He did save an entire elbow race. So that is the the one thing if he's doing anything For ternus and everybody involved. It's like, thank you. Right. So to me He's in tier two and I'm gonna put him Slightly above Slightly above And yes strength hammer, I know that's actually a picture of an arian But I didn't couldn't this is like kind of the best picture I could find of that guy But stop no Yes, but Tyrion is also a spinning image of an arian according to the rapey marathi Sure. Oh So at any rate, um, I just I thought this was like the best picture to represent him No one would look at that and go which god are we talking about? So yes, I had to I had to get fancy with my images because there's not really We don't have the new aos image of what tirion really looks like yet Yeah, I'm saying he's in tier two. I think he pushes his brother down and takes his spot So he's above techless In tier two. What do you think about that? I'm okay with that now This guy, let me tell you what tirion is here This is one of those draft picks that you're like Oh, this kid he's got so much potential. He's gonna be a huge star, right? He's like he's an athlete, right? Athleticism is with the charts. He runs a four three, right? Exactly. Like whoa Traylence let's go third overall. I've been three years late. It's like how he can't throw the ball. It's okay Don't worry about that But but but that's how we're going right now. We only have promises and hopes Yeah, and he is the god of hope this guy. He could fall into your four like so fast It'll make your head spin Right. Yeah We could I mean it is possible that his more important task is You know slip it into marathi's palace at night like that may be what's going on because he's done it before Sure So He could be he could be Not using his time wisely It's possibility. He could Yeah, but He could be just do he could be saving the rungs Yeah, I'm I'm putting this guy in a very tentative position is what I'm saying like we are We're going on a lot of faith here on this recruiting. Okay All right Cool next up. Let's go back to chaos. Okay, we're going to talk about everybody's favorite weirdo Which is Which is uh zinch. So let's bring out the changer of the ways the the master of fate Uh Okay zinch One strike against him. He loves weird birds That that's not cool. That's a weird thing to be obsessed with That's right out of the gate to all your all your demons look like bubblegum that got chewed up and spit back out Like at least the other gods have coherent demons. Okay three He does have probably the best army of the four chaos gods right now the four main chaos gods like Look disciples of zinches for real He was like, look, they may be chewed up bubblegum But they're the best chewed up bubblegum around Pinks and flamers even screamers were doing what he cheats like his very mechanic is cheating Four. Yes. He cheats for a living like in game and in the narrative. He is he cheats for a living however Five I remember years ago reading a wizard magazine I remember was like wizard magazine from the 90s that was all about comic books and stuff And they would do fun rankings and they rated the the best marvel villains And like Apocalypse didn't even make the list but they he made an honorable mentions And they were like he has a 5000 year plan that accomplishes Nothing way to go blue lips better luck next time, right? So this that's always kind of how I feel about zinch like he's like I've got plans within plans on gambits and meta gambits and And then it amounts to like nothing Just amounts to nothing. They almost brought brought down excelsius Sure Yeah, he uh, I mean he is the cause of one of the best Board games to ever come out of gw silver tower silver tower. Yeah um Like I and and the and the reawakening of wariam request um He has a wonderful spell selection in the allegiance um One of the only armies I truly fear when piloted well, okay Uh, so I mean they are certainly competitive on the tabletop um It's one of the only armies I've ever found that like there's not any dissonance between the narrative and the play experience Because it feels like everything they have cheats sure um, and their battalions are just like, you know Or change host is just too good um, and so I just I Zinges is pretty high for me. I'm not gonna lie. Yeah. Yeah Um, and he can always be like it's it's in the plan like sure. He always had It's old pot of plan. Yeah every time he lost part of the plan one part of the plan Yeah, does nothing part of the plan does everything part of the plan So, I mean it takes some cojones to to be like plan right I think personally I think Zeke is like the great joker. You know, he pledges checker because do you remember the opening of the dark night when the boat seemed? Yes, yeah That's literally Zeke and he sat on the well when he's looking at kairos kairos was like what's down there and he's like My job was to push the guy down the well and kairos is like what he just pushes him And kairos goes into the well to see the foresight and he comes back and he's like, well, what did you see? The kairos is like, ah, I could tell you loads of things is like well sit there and tell me because he He orchestrates even kairos in the well to the point where he doesn't want to put himself in the well Which obviously would be great knowledge But he understands the foresight that he would get it's such a burden that he would Uh, I suppose corrupt his decisions if that makes sense like he doesn't he wants to hear from kairos because he doesn't want it to You know Mess is what he's doing. He's so I think actually Yeah And I think that's another level of smart right that label doesn't have Because it's he's just the only one who's not triggered by desire He's driven by logic And maybe his curse is knowing that what will happen will always have happened He just Was a participant in that right or maybe what happened is because he made it happen You know, he knows but the curse is his to bear right? He knows that And obviously when you get when you stand in bubblegum You get stuck And the pink horrors are the best of the best example of that. So I agree. I'm beautiful anvil To me he's he's like top three like I think no ludo narrative dissonance there. No, he's I don't even talk about the studio team nailed the lb because the only thing they cheat is destiny does They didn't cheat with agendas. So if destiny doesn't do that They're like, okay, how many bottles have you got? You're like, well, I've got 10 That's cool. I'll charge and I'll cut us too. I felt great Love to see that So Zeke is playing even more, you know, I think the studio team did a great job with the Zeke the law But she the tabletop.  Yeah, I got a I think we've got to put Zeke right now Let's put him let's let's put him a tentative place like Lower area of tier one. How's that sound for everybody? Um, he's he's not like he'd get higher if his plans worked all the time But you got to say this he's a maybe they are I mean that's it comes to fruition for whatever it is. Maybe they are maybe they aren't I guess if he had sensible plans He's too literally up his own bird. But To for me to really understand what's going on Um, and you know, but but like he's responsible, you know, his wizards help build the gray water fastness And you know, he's all over in shimone messing with You know the ko and things happening there He's like he's he's doing amazing.  It'll be fine. I don't know You'll feel evil So we all good with a low tier one everybody feeling okay? Yeah, sure. I'm okay. Okay Very good. All right. Let's let's uh, take a let's take a walk down here to uh, to a new new person Let's go down to the destruction way. We don't have that many gods Let's talk about our new our new entry into the series Okay, which is cragnos Uh, the our newest god Uh, they called him a god So i'm going to roll with that even though just then said he was a demigod So I don't know which one he is but i'm going to say he's a god They said he's on the level of negash and a laurel In the thing they say he's a god. So for now with based on what we know, we're going to call him a god too So craggy.  That's that's nice Um, he uh, he you know killed most of the other powerful things of his race to rise to the top Uh, he uh, is apparently a beater in the game itself Like he's a melee sort of monster in the game itself is what the the story is Uh, he has the the So Charisma I don't know presence something To attract all of the rest of destruction under his banner Okay He did also get defeated and imprisoned for millennia by a dead frog who isn't a god So that's some points against him right there right being defeated By a non god puts you in the bottom half of the chart. Yeah agreed. Yes So tom where where you want crag nose? So what's your what's your feeling? He's just solid d Can I say that or uh four because we just don't know We don't know how good or how bad he is But his track record not so hot sure Sure Being chained under a mountain by a dead frog There He is poor though, right because we know Don't need to quote put him under the bell and all his people are gone. So who are you a god of? right A god is only as powerful as the people that worship, right?  I'm the toughest guy. They're like cool. We follow that guy, but I'm struggling to see you know and with your best story is you punched gawker mocker And it went okay like nobody won nobody lost They have a destruction guy. I'm like so Which one did he die like he should be fighting to the death, right? I think there should be one standing one in the ground plus was everybody else watching that video being like Craigslist isn't okay, but can doors okay to have that hydro model? Like I know that I know that we've got the others friends super cool Love the heart model, but can we have that could that be like a high just sleep bottle that we have like please? um, but yeah, I I worry for craigslist because he tells everybody he is a god sure. We'll play a lot of cadet but The guy's got a shoe on the base, you know, like I He's gonna find out the hard way that it's gonna be tough, you know, he goes into breath in breath inside You know, come on what we're doing here. So I think for me, okay, we're talking I would I would go as far as he is the worst god Because I would put him I would put him in five because he's a god of no one doesn't even have followers cause himself the end of empires Yet has a determined pause And I would go even further and say that he is Lost without course that is not a good thing for god. Like god should have a cause No, I'm sure all of that will be corrected in the brook and rose progress, of course Sure, but for now and on this he gets the bottom way. Is he the god of earthquakes? Yeah, he's like the lord of earthquakes or something. Yes, so That's not a thing Like I know like you're taking credit for tectonic plates I am the god of grissel, whenever it drizzles not a full rain only drizzles That's me. That's me right there. I make everything slightly moist It's like the ground shakes is like that was me Uh, I I risk I changed my answer. He is a five. Yeah, I think we all agree Honest answer though. He's still above look. I'm putting him above grim near.  Okay, so that's Like that's simple math right there Okay, all right All right, very good next up Uh, there's so many you know, so many these gods are absentee fathers. It's really funny I was just thinking that through as we were as we've been talking these uh Poof, they really need to they really need to to take some time and just sit down and maybe jam with their kids You know roll up turn a turn a chair around backwards sit on it. Hey kids. Let's wrap okay So next up, uh, let's talk about uh, this lady right here, which is marathi uh So marathi Is she got her own broken realms book most recent Sure most recent addition To godhood that is to say chronologically like I understand we learned about cragnos after marathi But marathi in the story became a god after cragnos okay um, so she is the most recent god uh and Uh, she got there through You know cunning strategic planning Brutality she used all the six sigmas to get there handshake fullness. Okay uh, she Has a cool Like a cool series of followers. She made in her own image in the snake ladies in the kanari, right? Uh, she is probably the best single figure in aos outside of maybe the lore seeker Yeah, okay Yeah, she can go hit me Hit me as hard as you want. Yes cool story my turn Uh, she Was working with the elven gods while plotting against them while also making friends with the idnef playing them against their missing dad Right cutting deals with catacross Like sneaking in tricking the storm cast stealing arkion's varanite like man She was a like a mover and a shaker Sisters are doing it for themselves. That's all i'm saying so and she's the head of like one of the most brutal Consistent armies 60 win rate for basically the history of aos at this point Let's acknowledge. I mean, okay. She's a working girl. She gets the job done And the reality is is that uh, like let's not forget that she tried to bag negosh Sure Like that takes some cojones.  Sure Okay, well, I'll just I'll just get from there for me. She's top of my board. She's number one. She's truffle arms For me. She is she has schemed. She has clawed. She has endured playing you forget She was in slender. She's belly for a long time. Oh, yeah And then she came out and she was like That was horrible, but I'm not gonna let it deter me from my greater goal Yeah, and not only that she managed to trick all the elven gods that she've established is not super hard, but still needs doing She's made alliances of categories. She has gone above and beyond At the expense of her own people To achieve her goal and she actually achieved it Not like the gash when she got banished Not like teclas when he went in it was like, I've just lost 3 000 elves to show you that I can The gash was like cool. Okay. Well You've got back to high each now. So what was that for? but Morathley is actually The baddest lady in all of us. Yeah, I mean and she put to me. She's number one She knows when to use brutality And when to use Diplomacy, right? Right like with the idk with with idnet Yes, when they showed up in a room like in bolternus realized, uh-oh We got a oopsie daisy here I made a mistake. Right and she was like, no, no, it's cool, bro. Here's your here's your toy back. I don't need it anymore Thank you Okay, what's this is like a glass just solo. She's like, do you want to do you want to do that? Because I've got this button spear. It's like, do you want to see what happens? He's like, can I have my toy back? She's like, okay, what could go right? Thank you Like he I thought they did a really good job of her walking down the pier, you know at the end of brook rose rough Yeah, yeah, and she looked glorious. She looked elegant. She looked amazing. And then she was like, this is by a senior Okay, well And she went back in Right, let's not forget that like Again talking about cojones. Like she survived consumption By slanash. Yes And then she was you know, she went, you know what?  I'm putting her number one because yeah, she's a top tree of great gods. Yep. Yep. Yeah I think he's definitely up for me. I think in everything that you'd actually want out of a sort of god in this story like legitimately she's uh She's sort of a compelling character with reasonable goals You can understand who works to achieve them uses multiple ways to get them Right in the game is amazing. Has a great army like all in all I mean, she's kind of everything we would want from a god in the mortal realms, right? And she Yeah, she's never disappointed me on the table Sure Ever I will say I will say that she literally created slanash twins Uh, that's true. And she gave us the slanash twins, which is you know, also something we have to be thankful for Look for now. I'm gonna slide her on up into tier one We're gonna put her above zinch obviously because at least her plans are sensible. Okay And uh, and and we'll see where it will see where she lives. Okay people could move. That's fair Yeah, okay. That's fair All right, uh, let's uh, let's go over here to this from from from one Sad elf to or a vicious elf to one sad dwarf. There we go. Sorry. Uh, let's talk about grungy um, so look Grungy, what can we say about this guy another absentee father Yet again. All right, the most common story But but Gave us the anvil of apotheosis and storm cast Okay, without him it wouldn't have been possible. He worked together with the the smiths Human and he's really he's willing to work together with others Much more of a team player Than than most of these other gods, right? Um still wants to see the best in his children if we assume That uh that he is the the You know grothy the dwarf we saw in uh in Bellachor bellicor that bellicor looked in in like noked out and noked out. Yeah, no Nope, I'm out. Um, and that speech at the end again. I won't I won't talk about it exactly But he does seem to want the best For his children and they kind of like he's like, oh kids kind of let me down again, you know He's had some mental health issues Sure, which is like hey look like we all like we all experience it Yeah, and like he he got really discouraged just real down for a season Like that's part of what this was is he was just like, you know what? I can't take it. I I need some me time Like we've we've we screwed the pooch here But you know what he came back. She's willing to like he's like, okay. I've gathered myself Let's write this ship. Uh-huh.  Okay, kale. I know you hate me I know I'm a bad dad But I'm here now and I'm gonna help us get through this together Yeah, and so I just like I have a lot of respect for him. Sure He he is sort of the most One of the most good classically good Of the order gods as we would kind of think of that in d and d terms Right. Yeah, like he really is like a god of Collaboration of like people working together to fight against darkness and stuff like that like that is one of his things however He did it at one point like this is a strike against him. I understand what you're saying but At the same time he did just go But I'm gonna walk away now and just be gone for a long time like a couple millennia Right That's a strike against him. Okay. I mean Sigmar went and hid in the city Yeah, but he was still but that was like he was there. He's making stormcast. He's doing stuff. He's not he's not You know missing where sigmar. He's over there. I saw him in the market yesterday buying some oranges Okay, he was around We don't know what grungy was doing now He was he did point people to like the spear of destiny or whatever all those weapons were In the the callous and toll like there was a a book series and he was like pointing them towards relics or So he was like trying to do work behind the scenes. Sure Uh, but he wasn't leading any cities. He wasn't locking down any realms. Um I mean they're they're called dispossessed for a reason. Yeah, sure I mean look his children lost their homes His other children hate him, right and he left his third type of children worshiping up due to exploded so And his army right now. I mean look, I love a rune lord and uh, and some and some iron drakes Getting bridged, but uh, that's about the one trick. He's got in his in his arsenal, you know James what do you think about grungy? Never trusted Duane. No, but it relies on a magic bridge It's a simple rule, you know, that's where grungy's at. You know, he's like, well I really need a magic and these dwarf brothers are like, what? I think he's like, yeah But I think we're grungy. I think I'm concerned About his absence. I'm concerned about the fact that he'd let the fire science happen That should never happen. You know, when you actively watch that happen It's like somebody when they do they've had like far too many beers at the bar and they're like, we're gonna play pool Yeah, we're gonna play pool.  He's like Yeah, uh I'm still not gonna do it. You know, he walks away Literally walks away. He's pinnacle moment, which is Consistent with his behavior for what currently we described as thousands of years Sure for me on that basis as a KO fan Brock is the future. Yeah, that needs to be on a t-shirt because Brock is on the front line as they've all been there. Yeah grungy He built he built me I'm all of apotheosis And then what you know, I'm really what have you done for me lately because that guy has just disappeared I respect the fact he came back 110 percent for the return, you know, the only pcs in but even half of the He's back to the bench for me as a three. He's a three tier. He can see with the gash Think about what he's done But he also didn't try to murder his children Well, yeah, but when you create the firesides, it's the same as that you've he basically let it happen You're right. He he's playing the trolley problem over here. He saw the train coming down the tracks He could have thrown the switch and he didn't He just let it die and ask the one like I look at us look at his like little models care come down and say that's my guys the fireside is like We're gonna take all the armor off They say oh, I think he just watches it happen. Yeah, okay. I'll allow a high tier three above corn and uh And I think I think three solid for a guy who's not present Yeah, I I gotta say he's three below negash and corn. Sorry like and that's honestly That's me giving it to you because of how much you love it. I want to stick him into your core really bad Uh, but for now, I'll give you like look say what you will about negash He's present Like he is very involved. He isn't anymore.  Okay He has too much time on his hands like grungy like went out for cigarettes He didn't come back with him, but he called on the cell phone. It was like, hey, I've got cigarettes Equal for payphone is like I've got 50 cents. So hurry up right So, uh, and I like I'm putting grungy into tier three almost solely on the anvil and his like His past glory. Okay. He's down here. I don't know in fact all of tier three Just might as well be called the past glory tier like you get into corn nakash and grungy you get into this tier okay By doing something really impressive once and then just screw in the pooch Right and or just leaving calling it a day just phoned it in from then on like you had your triumph moment And then that was it.  You couldn't sustain you could tell you could tell people about at the bar You remember state. Yeah. What a year that was wasn't it like yeah, but awesome. Exactly. Exactly. That's what you're doing now I'm still in but that's trailer It's exactly right Okay, let's be crunchy. There you go. All right uh Let's keep going Okay, next up Uh, let's move into Right here. He's been sitting around for too long. It's time to finally discuss him He's a he's certainly a top draft pick Nergal grandfather nergal the joyous one Uh, again, you know, everybody loves this guy. This is maybe you know, not an absentee father Not an absentee father. Nope absolutely involved with his kids keeps his kids happy makes them Immune to disease. I suppose after a sort right like You don't die from it. So that's something Um loves life always trying to spread it around Uh, is the grossest most disgusting of the chaos gods. No doubt about that Uh Joy to paint Yeah, like his models are super great for new painters Uh, people love painting up in general from new painters to high-end painters Right, like everybody loves painting nergal because it's fun to paint something gross and kind of it activates that five-year-old sense in our brain Right of like, oh, he's full of boogers. You know, like that's cool Has some of the best most flavorful units in the game Uh in slobby bio piper and you know figures like this Can always put up a game Like in general can always put up a game and no one's real sad about rolling up against nergal Right consistent mid-tier fat middle army that's competitive without being bad people generally enjoy playing nergal Unless it's tom and it's me playing him in which case I hate it. It's the worst game ever Beyond that Uh in a in a power struggle in geran right now against he doesn't have a whole realm to himself But he's in a good power struggle against allario Um, so, you know, that's a strike against him if he's losing to allario Like he's a little he's a little bit obsessive That whole realm of life thing He spent a lot of time there that'll keep him out of tier one like right out of the gate Sure because of how focused he's been Well, I mean if you're if you're fighting the sylvaneth and losing You're not into your one. That's no bottom right there He wasn't losing. He just couldn't find her. She was underground Like if you read if you read the hollow if you read the hollow knight stuff like in all of that like they won Like there is no question nergal And his his children took over the realm of life Sure, like almost wholesale like it was theirs.  Um in in the lost veil. So, uh, that certainly keeps him out of tier one But I mean, he's pretty he's pretty high up there Like it's just he's it's positive all around the board and his nerglings Some of the most joyous models in the game. Can't argue with that Can't argue with that I mean, I think he's a solid b. I think he's a head of techless Yeah Okay, because again, he won like he took he took the realm of life I think I want to give it to anybody. She was busy sleeping. I think I think the The issue I have will issue but yeah to your point of nobody seems to mind.  Yeah, what are we if you can't I think at the 60 playing barriers out But like my arm is minus two minus four. I have a ghost. That's fine. Yeah awesome Yeah What was each arm is minus one to hit to the locus people lose their minds and I go that's just that's just broken That is what that's been that is. Yeah, it's just a perception I said nerglings everybody's favorite. Nobody seems to mind Black King just run around, you know, three is three is these six explosions red One drop apple's like, oh, isn't that cute? And you're like, yeah, well Turn one I'm going to go four eight inches and charge it. So yeah, it's real cute And then when it happens, you're like, even when it happens, you don't mind, you know, you're like, oh, that's cool I lost Marathi To a nergal army at the top at the bottom of one In the first round of a tournament and I was like, cool. Yeah, that happened.  I table even I three and that's fine But I wasn't gonna work Right, right exactly. But it's a great But it was a great game and and I didn't feel bad about losing her. I'm just like, you know what you earn that And you know the grandfather after that game is like everything's eternal It can become a little baggy again. It's just going to go again. Um, so I think I do think with nergal To Tom's point, I would put him in one because I do think only does he have the great nerglings models He has great law and he's decided, you know, what's each cause I'm just going to fight from one realm and I want that fight The only problem was I became obsessed with killing a lot of him. He was already defeated. Yeah And in my obsession the storm cast have come in and caused me numerous problems But I love the fact he's got a particular sliver. He literally has his own gardener Yeah, yeah, and when you read when you read the plane garden novel the seven levels of the plane garden The Gorons boom takes you through on the ship. I still don't really get what the relict was doing with that lightning and power in the ship insane, but Awesome novel awesome that he not only has his own realm, but he has his own garden You know, you talk about the eight points No one was like, well, I've got my own garden. It's just seven levels Which everybody seems to live in Scaven like kings everything that's often the side that isn't even a part of the realms So I've been to that. I put him number one into your world, but below breath All right, how would everybody feel about the top of tier two and let me let me justify that Okay, I think he's the issue with nergal is that in presence in the game everybody loves him He is fantastic He's his armies have never been as powerful as zinch And he's never been as impactful to the overall story as zinch like when it comes down to it, right? Like this suit he has been very single-minded within the history of the realms He has been focused in this one area. It's not that we don't see Nergal forces sometimes in other realms Of course we do there's some stories with you know, nergal going in other places But he's often like run afoul when he tries to go into shah-eesh and bring light to shah-eesh Like that was a big L. He chalked up there, right? He's kind of stuck to this one place that's just His home like where he's got home field advantage. And hey, I get it Who doesn't want to fight on home field advantage, you know like You know good call I'm just saying he doesn't venture out of his comfort zone very much in the story He's kind of doing what he's doing and letting that be how it is Right, yeah, here's his road records. Not good. Is it right, you know, is that the seahorse? Great at home the minute you call the road Yeah, exactly like look in his own stadium with his fans around right cheering him on He's he's great, you know, he's putting up w's left and right, but yeah Uh for me, he belongs right here above He's definitely going above Tyrion because at least he exists and he's done something He's definitely going above techless. No doubt about that. He edges out the the twins He's he's firmly in the top of tier two, right? Do you think I would think it's like a I kind of feel sorry for him a little bit because when I read the novels Goddess was always like A cool guy, but just a cast of it, you know, let us all the model And I was like the guy's been fighting superman for like five years and nobody Nobody has helped him the guy has literally come down I'm like, oh my god, like Maybe goddess is just really really strong.  All right, very good Tom wouldn't have been too as well. So if it's two against one put him in two, you know, he's a level Renate the bubbles I'm okay top of two or bottom of one. I think both of those are strong. I think there could be some arguments either way I'm gonna place him here for now. Again, we can we can look at the end and we'll kind of You know, although in his favor He's the only one that's pulled the scaven into him Like all the other chaos gods, you know, like the scaven are like nope But for him, they're he's like hey, what have you buddies and they're like, yeah Sure, so I mean that's that that is a that's strong for him. That is a good point All right, let's keep moving Okay, uh, next up. Let's do our last of our, uh, missing gods.  No, let's talk about malaria Okay Uh, here's my argument malaria is in tier four Okay Because you've got to do anything because it looks like he's in the shadows Yeah, like you know because you've got to do anything to show up on this list in a real way Now as near as I can tell he's never been beaten by a dead frog Or exploded. Okay He did what I know He's done is help Marathi in the very beginning because he's the one who found Marathi when she was wandering in shadow He dedicated a pretty cool gladiatorial arena to azir so he could spy on that place. Okay Which I mean But you have to do something with that knowledge, right? And He seems like a pretty cool dude Like it seems like seems like I would have I would have attributed to him to him The keeping out of all of chaos out of ogu But I know better that's the witch elves doing that. Well, it's yeah, it's like he the problem is I don't know what's his and what's Marathi's because they were both just hanging out in the same realm Right. Yeah, and like the problem is he could be the coolest guy in the in the world But you've got no models. You got no army. He's got less models than Tyrion Okay, like and You know, I I don't know anything this guy's doing I can attribute almost nothing to him Which by the way could end up being a strength in the end Like he could end up being a money ball type of player, right where when he gets in the right team Suddenly he's going all the way Because we now understand that like oh He's he's super double triple bellicor all of these things you actually thought were other things were Were this were the ultimate shadow masters true plans, but that's that's not that's Facts not we don't know that right right, right? He's he's the lord of the realm of shadow He's a cool guy But he's a four you gotta do something all the people in three They did something great. They just then Failed failed. Yeah He hasn't even done anything. I'm looking at this and it's like zero games played man. I don't know what to do with you Right, he's like a red shirt. It's deep because they that the road get walls double area So walls double area. So like where where where is he? And he said and he hasn't even lost Yeah, no wins. No losses. Always if you don't fight Yeah, exactly Uh, I think he is for sure. He's kind of whiny Good Yeah, that's a strike against him for me. Yep solid four Like again, you gotta do something Yeah, he's like the entire challenge thing always one in has actually fought nothing Okay, there you go. I agree. I wish we could have more discussion on malaria I look forward to when we can have more discussion on malaria. Uh, that'll be cool Uh, I am excited about whatever happens there to uh, whenever his weird army of shadow demons shows up I know that in the dnd in the world of the dnd cartoon, there is no greater threat than the shadow demon 26 25 episodes Kids never even knew he existed. So there you go I'm rating him a solid four needs improvement. Okay Let's let's travel back over here to destruction and let's talk about gorka morca or gorka morc We're gonna we're gonna treat him as one being even though they are not always one being They do sometimes in anger split apart from each other and then come back together Uh, they are, uh, obviously sort of the The the unknowable god of destruction what I mean by like is is is the bad moon them Maybe maybe not is the or what are they like everything that because of the nature of destruction Everything they think each one of them is like they all have their own versions of gorka morca Like he has the most sort of inconsistent takes on him in story, right? Uh and The you know, he does have a host of He is pretty unified like up until we introduced craggy The reality is much like negosh. He was a singular god sort of in charge of his whole faction I mean was he like with with naggy We have like personality We have agency sure. We don't have that with gorka morca Active control versus passive control. He hasn't done anything. Sure. He's inspired people But like when was the last time he was an agent in any story at all Other than losing to sigmar in the age of myth Sure, he had a fun. Well, well, they didn't lose they came to a draw Just I do want to put that on the record. They punched for 12 days and shattered mountains and made other mountain ranges and carved, you know, great Rents and tears in the land and then eventually called it a draw What have you done for me lately? Yeah. Yeah, sure. Sure. I'm sorry Yeah, now I am very biased to this guy like I'm gonna openly admit that. Okay, because I think he has mysterious As malarian is right now. I have no idea what he's doing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah or where he lives He doesn't even own a realm like malarian does right Arguably, he is most present in ger Obviously, right the realm of beasts that is where a lot of it. That's where his children intend to hold sway So but you know, again, it's not like he's taking active Leadership in the same way Nagash is right So dd for Wow, that's harsh. That's harsh. He's not doing anything. Okay. Okay. I hear you james. What's your vote here? It's tough because I've been told like what have you done to be lately now If he is the bad mood Then perhaps he has done something lately. Yeah. What is it? Well, right, but but if he is not And we don't know the answer to this but if it's not And all he really did was really was what we call a british loss a draw to Sigma because in america, then we go to overtime Somebody would have to win somebody's gonna tire out right somebody's gonna have to come victorious But it was a draw So you can tell phil kelly wrote that so I will say It's tough to see him draw if that's his deal if he's a biome he's a girly and body's war He's a he's a proper beast your realm Um, it's tough because I really don't know what he's actually done other than people tell me that he exists I have no physical idea that he actually exists. You know the last thing we heard about him He got punched in the mouth by a five He did he did get hit But it's interesting isn't because the only people that talk about him are mindless destruction Monsters, you know oryx for instance or destruction of it But I really feel like they would go to war for any reason Sure.  If you all follow me Honestly, it'd be fine. They're like, you know, okay. Yeah, but really I would love to see it be like guys Just listen to crack names. Yeah, Greggy. He's gonna sort everything. Just follow him. Yeah, he's awake now. Let's go But he hasn't he hasn't been present at all And whether it's a continuous conversation between them whether they're arguing I don't know but I'm disappointed Yeah, I'm not giving up but We need to have like almost like a season exit talks talk about next season because he needs to come back better shape focused ready to go Yeah, on the army front his armies have not been like what are we like let's let's spin around this list Sun's a bad mutt ouch Gloomspite gets ouch right Now on the orc front, okay, you know iron jaws war clans. I want to cut that. Okay. That's solid competitive. I'm there, right? You know it's he he does not have the So he doesn't have the best track record with his actual troops Now despite his or his own personal fights, right? Sure. I think my honest answer with him is the problem with with Gorka morka Is that it's hard for me to rate him too high because basically the rest of these gods all have like Some kind of agency Right. They feel like they're they're doing something. They have a goal. They're out and about Gorka morka in in, you know, the age of myth was literally running around like hey We're all having adult time All of us gods as we sit here and craft this perfect paradise of the the age of myth and the mortal realms And and we want you at the table Um, but you're kind of a dummy So Why don't you go kill all the big monsters and look he did Right, he went out like a lot of the reasons that he's sort of there's like two basic forces that allowed the mortal realms to be Simulized One of which was gorka morka going out and like slaying all of the biggest most Baddest god beasts that were out there and were dangerous and the other was a lauriel walking through the realms and sowing life Right, so the things could actually be could actually live there But so like credit that was a cool thing he did But again, he's you know, he is very on brand, but he just is He's like a hurricane You know or what we mentioned earlier for an earthquake, but you don't get credit for that. He's just a living natural disaster Right So that's probably the better description. He is a lit. He is a natural disaster. Yeah For me, he's definitely pushing malaria malaria down because again, you gotta do something malaria. Sorry I'm putting him top of four. That's that's my feeling on him I know there's going to be some people in the chat who are who are deeply hurt by this But i'm sorry when I put him up against like what I want out of a god He hasn't taken very good care of his his children Right, he hasn't shown any great forethought that leads them to glory Most of his armies have been suffering on the rules like It's just I can't I can't put him any higher You know, I wish he was a cool active force in some way, but I just he's just not Is he a moon? Like is he a moon? Is he just a really really really big giant? Who knows? But that's where he goes. Anybody have a problem with the top of four? No, okay All right, so Uh, okay Next up we're getting down to the final we're getting down to some final ones here Okay Sad elf lady. Let's talk a laurel Okay, so four four I can find Well, let's let's at least walk through here. Okay, so the goddess of life, right? Seems like it'd be an important role Uh, she obviously as I just mentioned sewed life throughout the realms. Yep, right? So that's pretty important um, she is uh She is a again like a fairly good and benevolent force right now.  So that's neat Uh, and and made their little soul pods in a way for them to effectively be immortal Um, then she went to sleep for a long time and then she woke up and nergal took over a realm And then she went and hid and needed the storm cast to bail her out right Uh, and the rules wise She has never been worth her points since her initial printing Uh, however Her thigh game is on point like Look She is the Xenia on a top of the mortal realms as far as that goes. Okay So Yeah, that's that's where we go. What tom, what are you doing in her defense? So I've made this argument elsewhere like Uh, if you go and watch the sylvaneth and allarial videos that dug did I think that there's a strong case that she is being portrayed as a An abused survivor sure Where like with what nergal has done the way that it's portrayed in the narrative Is that she has survived some very horrific things at his hands And actually like the way that like she has made part of the sylvaneth actually like blotted out of their memory Um, like it's like there's real trauma that is being embodied in her as an agent And she is an agent because she she may have went and hid in a safe space for a season But she's also in war aspect now Now she's not very effective I'm gonna acknowledge that new scroll on the new scroll of the horizon new scroll Cross her fingers. Um, she has the worst terrain Of all the armies. Oh, that's a strike against her. Yeah okay, but I mean she she but she's showing up Yeah, right like clearly she has plans that are going to bring about 3o right she like because what because what we know from the uh, the Techless book like she met with tech lesson. They had to talk and he's like you're meddling and stuff You shouldn't be and she's like We'll see what we'll see what happens. Um, and so My point though is that like she didn't give up Like she's going to work And And her goals are much bigger than Marathi's are in that sense Sure, like she's not she's not insecure about who she is or what she is even though she's had a rough go of it Um, and so I like I think that there's a solid case that she could be top of four or even bottom of three Okay, okay. All right James where you at? It's hard to listen to Tom.  Yeah, so for me I struggle. I really struggle with the fact that she was asleep and Not in some, you know in between world place literally guard us and his boys found her Like in the field under a waterfall. Yep It's true. They were just like, okay Because but I agree with Tom and that she is present. She does fight. Yeah, she has killed countless niggle.  She is pushing back You know guy around is becoming more silver. That's orientated The role of life is He's becoming more positive, right? But niggle still has at least like a 60 70 percent foothold That for me is a strike against if you can't take care of business and you're at home That's a problem. Yeah, not to mention you're a guard not to mention you own the entire realm Before they were literally walked in through a small gate and took took it from you whilst you were sleeping I do think she's for me because I think She's not very good on the table top as well as it's to help. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah So here's what I'm saying. I think She's sliding into four. She's gonna slide down onto this four tier She pushes malarian down again. She pushes gorka morca down She's gonna take the top spot in four because at least she's the most active of this tier Right. She was absentee for a long time. She's had some victory, right But she did play sleepy time adventures for a while Okay A long time at house money. Yeah She paid the price All right, so now we have what I like to call the big three left So here we go Let's start with the horned rat The great horned rat. So the god of the scaven the 13 right The the lord of infinite number of rats right more numerous than any other race by far One of the the god of one of the few like one of the few gods whose people don't need things like Elm gates and nonsense like this to get around. We just drill through reality to get where we want to go Constant thorn into gossias side sort of incidentally.  This isn't the first time they've done it This is like the third time the scaven have foiled to gossias plans straight up. Okay Uh, that's that's real by the way killed him like gave him the weapon that killed him one time Like the third first or second time he died blew up his original black pyramid in the old world and Screwed up the necro quake. So like he's they are he they are three and o against the god of death. Okay They are in him Yes, uh Now at the same time, he's also a completely weird psychotic true embodiment of chaos who Doesn't ever even agree with himself. Like he has 13 personalities and all 13 personalities want different things Usually they're counter To what the other things want, right? Uh, like Is he really a chaos god though? Yeah, that he's he's not in the cool kids club of the chaos gods, right? No, you're not I think marathi is more of a chaos god than he is No, I disagree at that party disagree if we're like depends what you mean. Okay. If if what you mean is Okay, so Tom i'm gonna harken back to something. I know you would you would remember um There was a conversation happening in one of the d&d books the novels between coral on laugh along Right and one of the other and what that one of the other elvish gods. I don't remember which one and they were talking about dritzed right and They said who has been a better agent of chaos Then it was it was it was loth. It was they were having like they were having a conversation And it was this the reality is like who is the best who is the the most embodiment of Being a drow an agent of chaos somebody that spreads chaos throughout the realms Yeah, and it was exactly and that would be my argument if we're talking about like what the just the name on the tin Chaos the reality is the horn rat is well above any of the other four gods. They're much too Focused and they're mock and like even corn is far too predictable, right? Like or sorry full goal oriented. That's really what I mean to say And whereas the horn rat is not right. It's it's the embodiment of chaos it's just the destruction of of of things for things sense and but at the same time building and destroying like this constant tumult Is the way of the scaven, right? Let's you know let his children to both create incredible technology and build incredible things and destroy anything that they want all at the same time Yeah, right To me The the horn rat is such a fascinating god because He's always in everybody else's plans. He's like the b story and everybody else's story He can guest star in anyone's show and it feels like he's appropriate Right and he and he has he's shown up over and over and over again As you know bellicor hire death masters Right in that in that story like it's just my point is like scaven I get it. I'm just saying like that's often how scaven get used is my point, right? Right? Um so Okay, but what but what is he as a god what not what is it his scaven? What is he done? Yeah, I mean a lot of very hard to identify Right, because I mean through the scaven A lot of they they've caused a lot of things to happen in the history of the realms, right? Like yes, you're right. He isn't even less than the other chaos gods. He takes less of a direct hand Right. He has agents upon agents upon agents often working against each other And I love that like marathi got there first on godhood right Like she like he's wanted to like ascend right? Well, he is like He is but that's been one of the like one of you wanted to become one of the chaos gods Yes, it was sort of us. You are at least some part of him did right and like I just like slush hasn't even been around It has been occupying a spot. Well, they've still got the chair Like he tried to sit in that chair and they were like no no no no no Right, right.  They were like, no, no, that's too face to see he gets it there So yes I just I don't have a high view of him just because he's not Doing anything. Okay Like it's anything that's happening is incidental to his his his children just being escaped Okay James where you at? I think it's tough with 30 personnel is to get anything done, isn't it sure? You're like, well Yesterday I wanted to do this but today I really feel like I need to do this But I do think it's hilarious that like the gash makes up from like a thousand years sleep and he said I'll cut it's like have you checked for rats rats? It's like, yeah Because they're always meddling it's like And then they do the decro quake and obviously the scaven have done all the tunnels and stuff So he's orchestrated and he must have had foresight to go that was important um, however To tom's point he has done absolutely nothing outside of the scaven the scaven have done a lot and in his name they have done a lot however It's hard to do something with 30 personnel, isn't it? So I have to sort of read back a little bit and say they were You getting stuff done. You showed up to work, you know, you clocked in you got stuff done I don't know what you did You went home So like for me is tier three Okay, I'll put I'll put him into three. I'm not even sure he came in to work to be clear like Like somebody didn't hit somebody did that work But I'm not sure it's him But I'm not sure he didn't send somebody else into work in his place like he didn't uh, like, you know Just hire somebody else off of fiber to go in for the day right um Yeah, I mean the I will also just to speak about obviously let's let's fall back to the rules Obviously, he doesn't have any rules like he doesn't have a model on the table But the sort of extensions of him in the vermin lords are wicked cool and generally good models Like lots of the vermin lords are good models and have featured in many top armies Uh Scaven as a whole so like they're a good proxy for sort of him if we're gonna if we're gonna say that right um scaven as a whole I think are a uh Just you know performant army for most Since they've got a book now. They've been like on this slow gradual down slide Uh half of their armies models are really really really old and terrible. So that's got to be a strike against them. I'm sorry um You know, you can't have metal single fifteen dollar acolytes. Uh, that's that doesn't work for me at all Like that's that's ridiculous Uh, how would you feel how would everybody feel about the top of tier three? Yeah Because he does inspire six different clans Sure, he's he's got a lot going on right. He's like look scaven lights amazing It's a city built in nowhere, you know or whatever it's called. I don't like it's not actually scaven light anymore But you know like no one else can take credit for the fact of like breaching azir Right, right. He's got the only agents who actually get into azir. Yes All the rest of the gods not getting in him getting in Yeah, so like there have been some But again, it's his children. It's not him to what degree can they be? Yeah, so I just um Yeah, I mean top of three is fine okay Like I believe me my everything in my being wants to put him up in two I really really do. Okay. I really do and and maybe whenever we see that uh, that new scaven Re-release like whenever that happens whenever we get the entirely new scaven line whenever they get that treatment Uh, then that's where he'll be but for now Sure, whenever it happens Okay Uh, all right next up slanesh Our last chaos god So slanesh is obviously Something that's going to be hard for me to In a non-biased way evaluate But let's deal with the facts at hand first Okay one of the big four chaos gods uh, the most Easily insidious of all the chaos gods and by that what I mean is plays against the very fundamental nature of all of the mortal races in that we in that the high the more they seek to achieve anything And to pull themselves up from the muck and mire The more they give themselves over to slanesh right because any excess of Will to strive to succeed to to perfect yourself ultimately drives you into slanesh's waiting arms okay, um the Was captured by all the elves and put into a prison, which again Let's let's be clear she he Was captured partially by a lauriel Well, I mean it was an malaria. Sure. It was mainly the court. It was the four gods It was the four gods and and which Which included Two delisters I sure sure. Yes. I I don't disagree. Okay, however, it should be stated that even barring that uh Her children never like lost faith or went away And if anything just got you know went out and became their own new new people like The thing you'll say about slanesh When uh, like when grim near exploded his children went down a dark road No, well, no, no, they they were active in the world gathering up his parts. Yeah, I understand that they became fire slayers That's what the dark road is. Okay when slanesh got captured and got disappeared right, uh I mean you saw that first slanesh book they just got more powerful. Okay Uh on the tabletop obviously they had a long run of an incredibly powerful force With just like the ability to slam dunk on most anybody else in the game pretty straight easily Uh new book leaves a lot to be desired and is paying for a lot of sins. So that's strike against Uh does feature into really like does feature into the story in an interesting way Like has been this thread of chasing down slanesh and trying to find the prison and stuff like that Has been an ever present star like ever present motivating force for a lot of what's going on Right from so like just as a motivator of the story Uh You know has been pretty strong, right? Uh Even though she she is she he has not been an active agent Correct and other than whispers to people right to to to bring them to places. Yes. Yes, exactly So, uh james, what's your what's your take on slanesh? It's tough with slanesh, isn't it? Because I always have a fond place in my heart because I want the grand Good champion title with the slanesh um However You have to respect some money that full elven gods Felt it's super important to imprison and extract souls from yeah, that's obviously they didn't do it It's cool. They didn't do it there or they didn't once they imprisoned slanesh They didn't say oh, well, let's go do the other chaos notes, you know, they they just did just in slanesh Um, our cure is trying to free him He has assaulted the the prison. Um, so obviously it's important to argue on as well Um, for me, I think slanesh is probably in the one. I think of all the chaos gods He is the most He doesn't have agency to topper's point, which I 100% agree with but If he were to get out he is someone who would grow the strongest. I think, um By his very nature, so he's the most dangerous, right? Um, and the other three know it. They just don't want him to know it, right? But I think he does now after he ate all the elves. I think he does know Once he gets out He is going to be like Not unstoppable, but he will continue to grow like he will just spiral. Um And he's actively trying like he's actively trying to get out. Um, and I think knows if you freeze him There'll be a lot of Favour this way. I think I can know is he's the strongest I'll free him. He gives me the most power, you know Um, so I think that's really interesting as well with archaeology technology that At the cost of his own eight points with other people building fortresses and invading but he's a busy fight Try to free Salish. Um For me, he's probably the top. He's not top of what I was in the top of one, but he's in the one category. I think His arm isn't super strong His new range is gorgeous Yeah, I mean when if we're talking model range, like the Salinesa models are some of the most beautiful models they've made Yeah, the twin models are great. Um So I think of that basis, I think he probably is above vertical You know, if there wasn't two quarters in three Then Zeech is in one. I'll put I put him next to Zeech, you know, and say they're probably both together in that category Okay, Tom I mean Slanesh hasn't put in a hasn't put a w up on the board in a really long time Okay And in fact like slanesh didn't even put the w up that got him engorged Like that was Archeon And actually that was Manfred. Um That got the realm consumed and then he just like Engorged, you know, like gorged on all the elven souls and then got it all taken away After he got trapped and then um at some point Murafi like choked him from the inside and got spit out and so I just Like I I can't put in good conscience. I can't put slanesh in one um because slanesh is Like is it doing anything but losing? Like is it like or German said potential or current status pick one. It's kind of a mix of all of it, right? We're trying we're trying to holistically evaluate right and the book is the current book is terrible Um, and so it's I mean you had bellicorps gets a lot better. I'll say that I go ahead right which is not slanesh um so I would But here's the deal like there's no god that embodies losing better Because he she is enjoying it. Mm-hmm. Sure the torture the torture and torment so like I put her as a solid too Okay, um I I would still like nurgle's still been way more successful. Yep, and he's pretty rotund And he didn't get captured Like he's a big boy, right and he didn't get chained down um, so I just Uh, that's where I'm at. Okay mid to probably above the elves just because They're dumb Like because there's a degree of like um hubris in the elven gods That like slanesh knows what it is What he she is, right? Like and to me that's like that's what makes all of the losing forgivable And and like that puts her into You know because she like she leaned into her fault Right, like she's like all I'm gonna get those elven souls and just It aided up to the point of like not being able to move and she's just like it was worth it It was worth every every minute of ever the of the Terribleness that I'm gonna experience, you know in the millennia ahead. Yeah, and so I'm okay with that But that doesn't make winning Does that make sense? It does. I here's here's I think where I gotta come down. I think she's gotta go She he has gotta go in the bottom of tier two beneath Tyrion and teclis Okay, and why do you say that because ultimately they beat her like That's it like we had a direct confrontation They won All right, like That's it. Like I it's one of the few times we have a direct challenge And we saw what happened and it wasn't slanesh the victor like don't gonna be wrong. I I like I agree if She he got out Right, like if they got out It would be like they are the one primed to be the most Powerful dangerous right and the most dangerous because again like All the other chaos gods have ways they can pretty reasonably be stopped or halted or like at least held at bay Right. Yep. Uh But slanesh is just the nature of man Right, it is the most Aligned with the nature of elves and humans and all the rest of these things That that what that god exploits is the most dangerous right to build power Yeah, yeah, but that being said You lost so down to the bottom of two you go And and honestly she's like bordering on the edge of three Right, that's that's my honest feeling Like I could see her top of three as well, but they enjoy it So Like to me like again, they were they were comfortable on their own skin. Yep So that to me, I think two is still warned. Yep Okay, cool and and the power level of that first book doesn't go a long way Okay, that leaves our last yesher actually cast a long shadow Uh, okay. Well, that leaves one and only one god remaining And that's the guy whose name is on every box every book Product everything I'm sorry. What's it say on your nergal book? Why it says warhammer age of sigmar It doesn't say age of the chaos gods It doesn't say age of malaria and who's not here. It says age of sigmar Savior of mortals of all the mortals. Yes, of course.  He what's that? cities, yes like He but at the same time he did he made the hard call To save the lives of an entire realm. His realm is still in violet Right, like that is say. Yes, of course a little it's like scaven sneak in every so often, but they accomplish nothing Right, like the the realm of azir is still heaven untouchable. It's not even a realm you can play in It's such because it's it's you know held in such regard He Founded an entire new race in the storm cast right who pushed back The who pushed back chaos and created The beach head upon which all of the mortal races were able to retake the realms right he uh like he is A survivor so tough that when the world that was exploded into chaos He sat alone clinging to the core of the planet the skin of the hard core of the planet And then he found dracothean and dracothean, you know helped him become Uh this you know savior figure he built space station sigmar and put the the heart of the old world in the middle of his space station to mine and and And to armor The dead souls of heroes. Yes. He harvested the the champions the greatest heroes Of the mortal realms over millennia to build a you know a super army a force Untouchable right unbeatable Okay Now in the actual game that has been true or false depending on the time that it happens to be uh He uh, he did he he likes to cast a lot of things out of gold Sure And put his name on a lot of buildings. Yes um he You know, he was obviously sort of the head of the pantheon who brought everybody together In uh the age of myth he uh You know has has largely kept the fight Against chaos at the front of his his agenda no matter what right and certainly like he has suffered blows No doubt he has taken losses Uh, but at the same time he's had many many more wins, right? He has had his own friends and trusted allies turn against him and yet still kept fighting Uh, I gotta hold the whole throw your hammer and lose it for a millennia against him.  Yeah, he did and then he went home and he didn't like come back out and fight more Yeah, he had to go back and get that later on Uh, well, no, he didn't even get it. He sent his boys to get it Correct and then from that point on he's like, hey number one you can carry it now. Sure sure Now he is like his creation in the storm cast is the statue out in front of the building I'm just saying And like they are the poster children of this game. Love them or hate them Uh in the story they are mighty All right, they are warrior gods walking around the battlefields, right? Now Sometimes in the game, that's true. Sometimes it's not You know like Vanguard wing Sure, like yeah, there have been points in the history of this game when storm cast were the topist Topist broke his jokest thing, right? Or or even not even if not that High competitive with liberators. Sure. There have also been times where You know where his armies have been Not as good like say right now, but I have a feeling that's gonna change soon. Uh, so um What that's you know, he's I mean like this guy is involved in a lot of stuff like say what you will he's involved in a lot of stuff Yep James what do you think about sigmar? It's tough isn't it like how How do you not put him in tier one? Right, you know, he's done so much but at the same time he did the one time He did come out to fight lost his hammer Sure, so I so I don't know We hear great stories about him be drawing The walker walker he killed plenty god beasts, you know He's created storm cast he inspires the storm cast But ultimately it might just be him enslaving souls But he's actually eroding their memory to continue to fight battles. They don't even don't want to fight anymore so I think For me, he's quite dark in that sense They're like at some point when does the soldier become You know it without cause Yeah, exactly like it is and he's he's almost getting to that space You know, we hear about all the storm hosts that fought in the beltgate wars fought in the soul wars That are now can't even remember What they're doing, you know, it's it's quite interesting to see that arise and how he's gonna have to tackle that But I think for the most part He's probably a tier one. Why he's done a lot Of a role here role here because of him, right? It's it's his show. It's he's he's the one selling tickets um, everybody's buying and Whether or not he comes out to play from his own will house, we don't know But he did actually seal off around which no one else has managed to ever do right So he did actually do that and he's like, right Kairos Nurgle anyone no one can break the magic of that door You know regardless of who you are how strong you are Uh, which I think is also in his credit. He did that, you know with magic not anybody else. He did it. So He has that going for him as well. So I probably put him in one I've probably put him in one because Andy has a button That lets him release new chambers. It's true. He does have the chamber button He still has like multiple chambers. He's not even opened But by question to him, it's like if you if you see the chaos what was developed it always would carry Why didn't you just open all the chambers? I got it It's because they're sequential like they're they have to walk through all the other chambers to get out Sure. And so the way the doors were built because it's grungy's fault. He built the doors wrong And so you have to actually like empty each chamber to get to the next one That's why Yeah, I think that and like have you seen the size of that space station? He's on it's huge It takes people to walk to the portal. It's a lot so it's a heck of a journey Uh, so I would say that I think he's tier one as well But the reason why he's not at the top for me Is that one person has one up them? Then that was Marathi sure sure All right, I'm gonna make I'm gonna make a bold proposal here. Let me just cut to the heart of this I'm gonna take Marathi. I'm gonna scooter up to the top of one I'm gonna take zinch where to put him down a little and guess who slides right in the middle Siggi himself, right? I think I agree with that's the tier one Right, I mean look sigmar is unquestionably in tier one But when you think about actual character what you want out of a god their relationship to their people, right? Yes, Marathi is brutal Like n