Hello everybody, if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always as he has been for all five years of AOS minus the shows. He's missed It's Tom. What's up, buddy? I've been here for most of them. Most of them is a correct statement Just not all of them Also joining us this week the man who was with us at the start of it all the first post AOS launch show Where we did age of Sigmar the good the bad and the ugly mr. Doom and darkness buddy. How you doing tonight, sir? Good. Thanks. Thanks for having me back. Hey, we couldn't be more excited to have you back on the show It would be absolutely hilarious if this had been the next time you were on the show like we've had yelling in between But it'd be really funny. So what do you put up to for the last five years? Yeah But no obviously doom you were our first post launch guest And so I thought what better way to celebrate than to have doom back on to do this entire five-year journey with us And that's what we're gonna do tonight. We're gonna go through the five-year history of age of Sigmar and talk about all of it but first new stuff New stuff is first rumor engine. It's up on the screen One other quick note. I want to say doom say something real quick so the camera goes back to you Right. Oh, hello everyone. There we go. Can you see me? I can yeah, you're fine I just wanted to go off tom for a second to say one of the fascinating things about watching you on camera doom because I went back and I was watching you from the show from five years ago Is the shelves behind you filling up with armies and figures like the journey that those shelves have gone on So I just thought it was funny to look at them now today and see all of the different armies and figs That are on them compared to back then Yeah, once upon a time I used to be like dug and just recycle my armies endlessly But I've put that side of me to bed and and now I'm officially a collector and hoarder. So Nice join your ranks Welcome. Yes, absolutely. It's good to be here. All right. So rumor engine. It's up on the screen It's a stealthy little gloved elvish-fingered hand type of thing holding a sharp blade So that dock warband, right? Ah What do you think Sure, I'll go with your pick tom I think it's true card Sure I don't I think it's 40k. I don't think it's actually uh, I don't think it's a daughter's The best way to get tom to not call that it's an elf by the way Is it to actually be an elf it's for to actually be an elf It means tom will make anything into an aos elf Um, except it's actually like just a direct picture of an elf. We'd be like not it's a trick It's not an elf. I mean what I will say is this okay, so the blade has the shape of the of the like one of the witch off Blades like the exterior blades, but the hole in the middle of the blade is reminiscent of jukari Well, I think that the the tassel or the ribbon that's coming off it is is extremely aos. I've painted a dozen of those Yeah, yeah, um, it's just the gloved hand or the the hand that is a little bit Different to what I'm used to seeing so that's that's the only thing that that puts me off. Otherwise, I'd say it's an elf all day long Yeah, like that's what I'm calling dark elder like drew like drew kari is what they're called. Maybe yeah Yeah, it's I don't I don't think it's I don't think it's aos. I actually think it's 40k. All right fair enough I mean, here's what I'll say the uh The What how do I want to phrase this? There are still seven unreleased figures from that Dark elf band and chances are a lot of them are going to be male and that feels like a more male Sure hand I don't they tend to over pronounce they tend to over pronounce knuckles on male hands and under pronounce them on female hands the gw sculptors So sure, I mean, I'm not saying it couldn't be a dark elf, but I'm saying there are seven figures We haven't seen in that warband at least and so So There you go. Well, it's it's not an ogre. So basically it's just food It's a fair point. It's a fair point. Uh, I agree with that Uh, all right cool We have some other stuff happening. We have big news Big news.  Oh, it's big news.  I did not ghb 2020 coming out Going on pre-order this saturday coming out on the uh on the 11th Uh, and I have a thing here. I just brought the table of contents up on the screen for everybody. Oh, yeah Well, uh, because they did release the table of contents Yep, did you watch the video? I did not okay doom. Did you watch the related video where they all talked about what they did? I saw the photo So I watched about half of it. I saw jervis say open play. I was like cool That's good. And then I saw sam talking about narrative I was like sweet hitting the strong point and then I saw I think he's aguila Mr. Aguila doing the match play and he was uh heavily involved in the slave sardar's book, which I love And so I actually have a lot of confidence about the match play section of this book based off, uh, his Perceived heavy involvement. Sure. No, I did you're absolutely right. That was the alignment I did think it was funny that they gave the newest guy in the studio the match play section Like that's no offense to me. I I agree with you. I think the slaves to darkness book Barring marauders is actually one of the best books. They've released in a long time Like I think slaves to darkness is a nearly perfect book Uh marauders are way out of bounds, but that's okay other than that. It's a great book Uh, and there's terrible models too, which is the best part I do love the recent trend of making old bad models ridiculously good But let's get into this for a little bit. So open play games. He talked to, you know Jervs talked a little bit about how they're doing all the sky battle stuff Um, it's kind of cool I don't care that it's really open play because I think most of it is just about having literally a fight one on one between two flying monsters Yeah, so I don't think you actually need points for that like just you take your Go ahead.  So i'm excited about this Yeah, and clearly they've got both larger battles as well as sort of the one-on-one because they have the sky battle duels And then the encounters and I think that's a fun little attraction Neat you can take your mega boss and maw crusher and go against a vampire lord on zombie dragon and it's clearly its own little system and you can have a little fight and Again, perfect. That's the perfect type of thing for open play fun What that makes me think is that which that's the kind of thing either of you could do with your kids Yes, that that's exactly right like open play for me is playing with my kids And so I love the I love that change like I love that the let me say this I love that additional content Like I don't play scenarios with the kids. I play open play cards. Sure Plus it seems to me like little kids would be like Yeah, I take my big monster and go And make the noises and stuff. Maybe I have a misperception of small children You are that is a really weird Like corner case of kids, but I will say that my son does just want to play as maw crusher and his star break Same like if I tell my son to grab something off the shelf He just wants to grab like a blood thirst and the maw crusher and not get a thousand points or two thousand points Yeah, so it gets too hard as you just got to pick that many many guys But uh, grab some big guys grab, uh, thank well even though it doesn't fly and away you go sure Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, you know Skaven magic is uh, isn't is impressive. They can do many things probably even make rats fly Truly once we get the airborne technology solved, uh, Skaven will be a whole new force It's the one thing we've been lacking I remember back in fifth edition when I converted my Skaven warlord on a manticore because you could buy monsters from the General monster group and it was my favorite time ever and then they took that away from me And I still miss it 20 years later. I still miss my flying Skaven warlord Give me them back. Yeah Anyway, that's an idea there for ghp 2021 2021 bring it back. I can play let's go the random monster collections Where you can just have monsters you add into any army. Yes, I agree All right, so then narrative play, uh, I mean they've got a bunch of different stuff But I think what we what we're going to drive into is let's talk about the anvil of apotheosis That's obviously going to be the big point of discussion the hero maker. Yeah, right okay, so Hero maker obviously it's not a match play thing. This does feel like the kind of thing though that Could be generated within points like I understand they don't want to because it a lot of match play people would probably hate it But it does feel like the kind of thing that you could easily point out Like when I hear something like this, I think of battle tech and I used to play battle tech and you could build your own Mechs and we could fight those against each other and it was still fair So it seems like there would be a way to do this too I don't know Just a thought. I don't know Making heroes seems cool gentlemen thoughts Seems like a great idea that could have been even designed for match play and then And then before it went to print they said, you know what? Let's just test this in narrative first and then see how we go for 2021 Yeah, like you're so so they pulled the opposite of meeting engagements where they started with something that very well could have been narrative and and it pulled it from From match sir I think I think there's a bunch of problems there like it once you start to You build in a mechanic to create your own heroes and match play point it then you're releasing your algorithm for Point generation in one sense as well because it's going to be very similar to that um and then and then as well You want to make sure that what you're releasing there has been very that has been tested robustly otherwise There's going to be real potential for for problems and things that have been missed So I think um and and if if and we want to move away from soup books, right? Where we're just putting whatever we want into whatever army so That's sort of like an addition of soup. It's like adding your carrot into your Spaghetti or something. I don't know so I can see like multiple different reasons why It's got good potential for match play, but perhaps why it's not there now Yeah, that's fine. I'm okay with it I mean the the biggest thing that I'm excited about is removing to talk about match play a little bit And but it's it connects the two. You're good. Go ahead. Tom. Yeah, I want to say And this also connects the two and it's a really sad move for me Um was that uh mercs seem like they're gone.  I miss it's really no But like I like for me like I really like the idea and it actually pushed my story in a really interesting way for my My my like my dwarf army. And so I you know, kid, you know build up couple units You know converted a bunch stuff and it was fun And so now I have to like make use those as something else, but yeah Sure. Look, here's my issue. I don't have any issue with with mercenaries as a concept My issue is with that implementation of mercenaries felt so far off Like you look at the mercenaries that were in there and what they selected It was a bunch of units that then part of that stuff they ended up retiring Like five minutes later. Yeah, uh, you know, it just like it just felt like not the correct Implementation of mercenaries like if you're gonna do that Have some kind of look at your range Decide who's mercenary on like a table like which we're about to talk about of people who can kind of You know fractiously align with anyone for coin Right and then make some rules to allow them to be able to go over there in a in a In a sort of controlled way I liked the idea the the essence of what they were doing of having these mercenary companies because it called back to the dogs of war It was just they they need to put it into a perm a product if that's what they're gonna do, right? Right, which they did kind of The ghp. They put it into the actually, you know what I take that back. I take that back. No, my army's fine because technically I own malign or not. I moan for the one The one magic one and you can technically do fire slayer and fec still correct Those two were in the perm of in the perm of product. Yes. Oh a forbidden power It was the rest of the mercenary companies that they've kept in here Yes, yeah, rather than like the yearly product those two companies sit in the The In the in a second edition product. So yeah, it'll be interesting. Yeah No, totally fair. Uh, the other thing I'll say that'll transition us over is Clearly there is a lot of multiplayer focus in this. I'm excited. That was my number one ask When if you went back to the show, I said number one thing I want to see much more multiplayer support Most of my games are multiplayer. I love multiplayer aos. I know that probably makes me weird But whether it's three player or four player I think it's the best way to play aos if you want to stop caring about balance and start having fun Okay, start playing three player games of aos it will Dramatically change the way you play aos your games will instantly I guarantee a minimum 15 to 25 fun increase That is that is that is that is the vince guarantee right there I mean, I will agree that like, uh I love multiplayer games and it dramatically changes the shape of how things work and what's good and yeah Yep. Yep. I I agree outside of match play. Um, just straight up warhammer. Um Multiplayer games is the other most common way that I play age sigma and normally 2 vs 2 And it actually works 2 vs 2 already works pretty well within the existing rule set But um, just just adding some um some confines around that I think is is excellent And I want to see him sort of develop it because I also think that um 2 vs 2 as a tournament format is is excellent like a lot of fun Yeah, so I want to see much more of that by far my favorite tournament format I enjoy 2 v 2 tournaments. I like I don't mean wrong. I love a good standard match play tournament You go there 1 v 1 you have some games you have five great games. I've enjoyed all those tournaments. I go to but Legit real talk. I enjoy team tournaments just a lot more. It's more fun to have somebody next to you on your side of the table Right. It's just a good time You're welcome vince. Yeah, and unfortunately for me, that's usually tom, but yes Uh, everybody else is probably a good time. We'll see All right, so battle plans, uh We got some stuff. We got so we got we got the the ones we've got some new some new battle plans The lades edge enforcing the hand right uh, so getting rid of um The dual the hero what why can I think of the name duality of death? Thank you duality of death Yes, all I could conjure by Ed was dual and getting rid of relocation orb with these two you Now all right, so what did you so let's talk about duality of death relocation orb tom happy or sad to see these scenarios go Love it. Love it. Get that out of here. You didn't like either of them. No, no okay Like it's skewed list building for some armies like way too sharply um and relocation orb I think like anytime you have really really random of like I don't want to say this um when you have um in like competitive events Um having relocation orb in there anything that it has like objectives that have moving point values Um, it adds an element of randomness that if you really want like competitive match play I don't think should be there now. I'm more okay with it if you have like a four person Like team game if you have the like the objective moving places Where there's four people but when there's two I don't all right do your take on these two being done happy with duality of death going But personally I loved relocation orb. Um the principle of a moving objective. I actually love it's the opposite to tom and But I'm perfectly happy to lose a game at a tournament based off a randomly bouncing objective Because I like it's fun chasing an objective with stone haunts just like driving across the board chasing after that thing so I would like to see a scenario like that remain and if there was a better way that they could Implement it. I don't know what that is then sure. I'll be happy with that But but in the the general principle, I thought it was really really fun But I certainly see why a lot of people didn't like it, but for me it's all good. It's um It makes for a really fun game. It's like the priority role. You don't know what's going to happen, right? That's one of the best things about age of sigma. So let's add two or three of those in and holy moly We've got a wild game on our hands Totally with you 100% with you doom like I love those scenarios for that reason or relocation are specific for that reason Duality was what duality was. I actually liked duality less since they changed its its uh objective taking Rules in in 2019. I actually found it to be less compelling. I like places of our game power better post uh post 2019 uh, it was just really easy for like Firesliders to just push two blocks of hearthguard onto objectives. Correct. Once they yeah, they ruined the scenario by allowing battle line Yeah, that ruined it. It should have stayed heroes. That was what was cool about it. It was neat now that they ruined it I'm fine with getting rid of it is my honest answer Right. Uh, I'm interested to see what these new ones are. I have a feeling one of these is just going to be relocation Or the new version by the by where I like a more controlled version Probably like I wouldn't be surprised if the blades edge or something like that was like Allying through the middle of the board that the thing slides back and forth on instead of going loopy loop Right or or something like that Who knows I will see I suppose very soon Uh, sad to still see total commitment there But I'll be happy if they completely get rid of the normal way total commitment works and have it be something completely different And stop just ruining two armies three armies in the game for no apparent reason Uh, so that's fine Uh, and then we have a bunch of stuff about meeting engagements. So that's here to stay Yeah Okay Okay, uh, some people like it I'm happy for those people Uh Moving on well, though. Yeah I'll just say now in in defensive meeting engagement like we knew this was coming because um games workshop released their podcast and I think it was um And when jervis was getting interviewed he was talking a lot about Well, they're sort of working on their sort of processes and he spoke heavily about meeting engagements and justified some of the Things from the last edition of it, you know, having the the um base starting off the edge and things like that and so his focus on meeting engagements in that interview told me that this was going to be a big part of um of this ghb and um Just like to be fair I've never had a single game of meeting engagements and I probably won't play it in the future But I do know people that have and they've really enjoyed it I know other people don't enjoy it, but I do know quite a few people that have really enjoyed it. So Um, I won't rag on it because I haven't played it But I probably won't play it if that makes sense. I have and I didn't enjoy it Right. There you go. Also fair. My answer is it's not for me, but I'm glad it's for someone and honestly It's I don't care in the end. It's like 12 pages of this book And if 12 pages book makes a bunch of people super happy Then okay, that's a worthwhile use of 12 pages. Not everything in the book needs to be for me. That's the answer, right? Yeah, especially again. Oh good I would say though that you know, we have a thousand point system which works quite well really. Um Everything is scaled down and you have to try and you know, am I gonna go into this battle without my leg or my arm? That's the decision you have to make and so I probably would have been happier with meeting engagements and A thousand point system being merged in some way and so that it's um less than meeting engagements But a little bit more than the thousand point system we have at the moment Um, I probably would have preferred that then um, then two parallel thousand point systems as such But I mean who knows. Yeah, I hear you or you know or do something with the 1500 point mark Like you know mess around in that space is what I would say Hmm. Yep. Yeah, but uh, as I said, I can't complain because I do have we do get a bunch more Uh Coalition stuff in here and so that's where you get the pitched battle coalition of death And of course the coalition matrix as mentioned, which I will now bring up Bobow, it's very tiny, which everybody can't probably it's not gonna be able to see But the point is is that here I'll tell you what I'll I'll move it over here real quick Just for everybody and we'll make it real big We'll go big There we go. So, uh, this is the the big matrix that shows you how you can align with everybody It is funny that of course all the chaos people have no coalition possible With a whole bunch of forces like they're not friendly with very many people, which I enjoy Uh, but I do also enjoy that the fire slayers get a little mention of the fact They'll work for anyone by having the desperate coalition with everybody in chaos Except scaven scaven being clearly the least friendly people because they have the most skulls And then even with the rest of chaos who most of the rest of the chaos They're all happy to work together for the most part except exempting the sort of hard enemies Uh The nope scaven are just even at best. They have like a fractious coalition with the rest of chaos I do like that admission that that everybody hates the scaven and they they aren't good friends to anybody So I enjoy that Uh, and of course listing out the sons of behemoth on here and showing that uh, that they're They're fractious with everybody. There's nobody they can't hang out with which I think is pretty cool um, the other thing, uh, that I picked up or that I thought was really interesting about the The ghb Was it seems that you know the one clip that they showed seems to point to the fact that we may be losing realm artifacts and meshed play Well, we're we're gonna get to that in just a second. Let's we're we're gonna talk about that in just a moment I promise the last thing I want to mention here is the lumeneth realm lords also show up in here Uh, we've seen their ally list obviously because the book is out and we know that it's just idk Which is hilarious to me because in here they have a very happy battleforged coalition with stormcast eternals and uh daughters of kane and sylvaneth and they have a desperate coalition v We can barely stand you With idk so right uh that the so I could see one of two possibilities happening one the ghb changes their ally's list Sure Or two like like I think probably what happened was there was a last minute change with lumeneth Um that like I think they like I don't know if they found something play testing or or something But I I suspect that like because there's no lore in the book regarding idk like zero lore Like the relationship between lumeneth and idk Um and like tension none of that none of it is in there And so I think it's just really interesting that they're the only allies Without that so it seems like there's there was some disconnect between that ally's list and the rest of the book Sure, sure Yep, I would have thought idk would have been pretty upset about uh lumeneth and uh, they kind of idk like the unloved second child so um Yeah, I think I'd have a bit of a chip on their shoulder Uh, yeah, I absolutely agree Uh, so yeah, so there we go. That's that interesting little screen there. Okay. Let's make this small again Uh, so I'm interested in all these coalition rules and what that boils down to it should be a lot of fun to To check that out, uh, okay so And then what exactly what you were what you mentioned tom is where we're going next let's go back to the The uh this which is the realm of battle rules Six pages 102 to 108 And then we've also got some match play auxiliary objectives So built-in secondaries very interesting to see how that's going to work Is it just going to be a reprint of the secondaries? Are we getting something new? We'll find out but realm of battle rules we got that we got oxy and shimon or something, you know kind of spoiled out there in the article Seems like it's just basically and what was said was when you Determine when you roll and whoever goes first they also get to choose the realm and then all that stuff gets set And it generates the spell and the artifact and the command ability and all of this which doesn't necessarily make sense so, uh Here's the question Why do we think realm artifacts are going away? Well, could I just maybe unpack why I think maybe they aren't? I'm I'm absolutely. I want to know where this came from So so if I remember correctly and I haven't even checked but The realm of battle rules like for what realm you are are in the core rule book And then all the artifacts are in the malign sorcery, right? And so the core rules for the realms Had basically the same thing that we see in the new ghb except there were multiple different command traits Or or whatever it is you'd have to roll them up multiple different to spare multiple different spells and it was um A bit more excessive than you needed and then separate to that almost completely separate to that was malign portents and malign sorcery with all of the different artifacts So based off what I see at the moment It seems like these are just the new realm rules for how you Apply what realm you're in and then malign sorcery is a An independent bolt-on that you then use to pick all your artifacts and things like that And so unless there's something there that says, you know, malign sorcery is going away Um, I don't see anything that says they're going away But I could be completely wrong in my understanding of that sort of um layout Uh, let me find the uh, so there was an image that leaked that was like a screen capture Okay Yes from the video Say what it's from the video. It was from the video. Yeah, I'm trying to find the I'll find it. Um, and basically it said if you play in like the fine tech said if you play in a realm In a realm like you're aligned you must take this item And it only lists one item Um, and so like it seems like it is a lot more Uh, if if you decide your army is from a specific mortal realm and wish to make one of your artifacts of power A realm artifact You must pick the realm artifact for your chosen moral realm From the following pages instead of using an artifact from malign sorcery Right that is that is explicit text Yeah, um after picking a battle plan, you must pick a mortal realm Okay, so what that says to me is that you don't use in match play. You don't use this the artifacts anymore You have to use whatever the one artifact that give you four year realm Yeah, I did not see that additional text at the top. It's interesting That's an interesting place to make a real hard pivot like that That's a big change away from that stuff, especially since all of this was reprinted in the gaming book too Right. Yep Okay, I'm gonna pull that up real quick Yes. Hey, well mentioned in the chat as well Okay, there we go. Uh, this is gonna be I I apologize for how like because this was a screen capture of the screen capture Like it's gonna be foggy But there's the text That is very zoomed in tom.  So can you read that now? I can yes If you decide that your army is from a specific mortal realm and wish to make one of your artifacts a power realm artifact You must You must pick the realm artifact for your chosen mortal realm from the following pages instead of using an artifact from malign sorcery Yeah, that's just a fascinating change to make here Right. Yep. Yep. And like what a that's that's a heck of a pivot Now what I'll say is so so let's just have a talk about this. Okay, great. So because I like I you know the I've seen some people in the comments already heralding excitement at the at the getting rid of the Here at amulet, don't you touch my here at amulet? Well, yeah getting rid of the malign sorcery artifacts and my honest answer is Lodge horn's got a crunch Why are we excited about these going away? Let's have this discussion here. Okay. I'm not I'm very Unexcited about them going away. I've never had a problem with them ever And I I saw a discussion about this happen I think on rob show where where the person said well They're kind of a win more thing because they help armies that are already up at the top and have really good stuff Have more better stuff. I disagree armies that have great stuff. Don't take these things That's right because they have great artifact lists already, you know, when I'm when I'm playing an army that has like incredible things like if I'm playing Uh a legion of chaos ascendant. I don't need to worry about that I'm taking the fourfold blade of I've more to wound you off the table because it's incredible If I'm playing my seraphon, I've got items coming out the yang that I'd rather take than anything out of there I don't need to touch these Right and so on and so forth like same with zinch same with a bunch of armies Where these help is frankly with the older armies that don't have good Uh That don't have good artifacts We're not even older armies, but even just more tribes Yeah, sure lots of armies that have either uh heroes that just don't have access because things like maw tribes where they said This is the artifact list for this guy and this is the artifact list for this type of hero And this is and sometimes they just left out heroes Or and like destruction. This is true all over the place ogres oryx and goblins All have this situation where they split up the artifacts right Into into very specific things like your butchers can have this you know and your your uh Hunters can have this and whatever and you look at like oryx your war channers don't even have an artifact list They could pick from that's not a thing doesn't exist Zero artifacts they can take right Same with like gits there are there are characters in the gits army that just don't have artifacts.  I don't play the gits, but I know there's some goblin guy that can get it Uh, I guess the only thing he can get is a sword that lets him hit that lets him get two hits on a six If we're in the realm of fire. Oh, well hot to do. Thank goodness for that. That's exactly what I wanted my dude to have right Yeah, once you take this away Nothing that is already at the top of the meadow gets any worse in any way And the only armies that get worse are people that are relying on, you know, ethereal Vampire lords on zombie dragons ethereal stone horns swords of judgments for a cool little assassination hero aether quartz brooch And so when I think about all of the different armies that use those artifacts You take it away from those they're already in the bottom of the fat middle anyways So they only get worse. So I don't mind the the the general principle of reverting the artifacts down to pretty much a small selection or what's in the army book I think that's cool for for flavor and keeping things within the very book But um, overall it's just sort of punishing the the have nots. I think Yeah, I completely agree where it feels like to me the right answer would have been Oh, these are good artifacts.  It doesn't matter. That's a good thing. That's a feature not a not a bug Because if there's only eight artifacts out of that list that are any good They instantly enter the consciousness. Everybody knows about them. You can know about them I know all eight of the good artifacts I don't know 84 artifacts that are in that book But I know the eight good ones and I can keep those off the top of my head, okay Not a not a bug a feature But it still has a bunch of fluff for everybody else who wants a cool fun thing or is corner shooting with a neat rule Which I've done a couple times where I've dug into that list and found a neat like oh This is a cool little edge case combo here for this one particular hero, right? It's not in the top eight, but this would be an awesome setup for the smoldering helm Cool, you know, I've got a guy who can get like plus three to his save And he can go charge into people and do a neat smoldering helm trick Now all that's gone All that's gone, right? But even if you were to assume that's incorrect The right answer would be take that list of 84 if you think that's unwieldy and break it down to like 16 And rewrite the ones that are like that you feel are out of bounds somehow So if aether quartz is a problem, which I don't necessarily think it is. I think it's fine whatever But if if aether quartz is a problem fine slightly fix it Right make it on six and then no one takes it or whatever Or you know like there's there are things you could do here Okay, or you could say the first time in a round you spend a command point You may roll a die on a four up you get the command point back the first time in a battle round So you can only get one per turn neat, but it's a 50 chance. Great. That's still pretty cool right Um, so like there the point is these things could have fixes we could keep the thermal rider cloak And yes, you're absolutely right somebody just said in the comments and you bet I'm pissed Because I built a flying steam tank With a thermal rider cloak on him It's the most exciting thing. I like I've waited so long to have a cool steam tank character This has been my dream forever That's what made me want to build this army Was realizing that I could have a character who could take an artifact and have a flying steam tank It was the coolest thing in the world Okay, and you're just gonna like take that away from me. Just sight unseen like hey, who cares I mean magic Maybe there's a magic carpet in one of the other realm rules and you can you can put your steam tank on the carpet And it'll be all right. That's the only Reserve I've got is I'm sort of saying well Let's just wait and see a little bit because they might just build that griff feather charm that a theorem alert or something like that Into some of the realms Maybe lesser versions of those but still feel feel a similar role. So And of course, maybe there's malign sorcery or malign importance 2.0 That's going to be released as well and we get a whole new list. So It's a it's a big inconvenience for me. My theory or stone horn is gone He was such a critical part of my army and to perform There's no other thing in that army that performs the same role and I need a tank And so I'm going to have to try to swap him out for a sub optimal frost lord on thunder task Which just is can do that. It's a poor man's version. But that's just the world. I guess I'm going to have to live in so I wait and see. I'm not it's not the end of the world for me, but it's definitely Not optimal No, I call it an all-around negative move and by the by doom, uh, I can't wait and see what they have in other realms City's armies are locked to a specific realm So, yeah, all I can get is the dumb fire sword. That's the only choice I have Is dumb fire sword at least that meme that says driving closer so I can hit them with my sword is more relevant then Absolutely So, uh, now that being said like and again it'd be it like so your thing aside right, uh Yes, the the city's being locked means All cities armies who already have a very limited magical item selection by the by like most of the cities only have three magic items And let's be honest. They're not great in most cases.  Now you just have four artifacts for your city instead of three. Well Congratulations super cool. So again, we don't know any of this for sure yet This is all based on that little snippet of text and whatever But um, I'll tell you right now what my instinct is my instinct is to say No, thank you Uh, like look, I'll we'll know for sure when we get the book in a couple weeks and I do that But like last year they came out with a bunch of terrain rules and we as a community all got together and said No, thank you. We we would like to not use these and nobody did So If this is that bad, we could just do the same thing again Like if the realm rules are such as that that these just don't work in actual match play I'm okay with just saying, you know what the right answer is here to ignore that and continue on And have them fix it There you go. That's my answer so selfish certainly but I I don't like it. There you go So fix it Okay, uh, I am interested to see what the secondary objectives are. So there you go Okay, cool Uh, anything else we want to say about ghb 2020 I hope it's not like ghb 2019 that's all I can say Yes, that's been another thing. I've seen many people talk about on on various shows this week talk about ghb 2019 It was great. We loved it. I'm like, what I've got I've got ptsd from that book I I think these people don't remember exactly how the the general anger in the community when ghb 2019 dropped And how upset we all were like the lat the reprinting of all the allegiance abilities Nothing changing like the only bright point in 2019 was they did fix the battle plans really well Like most of the new battle plans were really nice the match play battle plans came out. Well, that was the right spot Yep, ian joe's got an elite stability that was excellent and then got a book which replaced it like straight away But more tribes were just as deadly as ever just as deadly as ever That's right. I mean, yeah, I didn't uh, I didn't forget how bad ghb 2019 was It was bad It was really bad Let's hope for better this time on the bright side Even if they do screw the entire blind sorcery artifacts out And uh and and ruin all of that it'll still be better than ghb 2019 Yeah, I mean I in hindsight, you know, uh, we know now that they they had such a tough schedule And we're working on so many different books and had a um an intense release schedule ahead of them Uh, so we know that in hindsight and so probably not as much went into it as as we would have liked but at the time Who it was a doozy Indeed indeed uh, all right, so Cool, I think that's that's so ghb. We'll know more soon prior to this saturday new book. Hopefully man will read book We'll see what happens Tom I think that's all they do. Oh, obviously, this is the five-year anniversary of aos So there's hashtag five years of aos And uh, and that's linked down below Uh, yeah, so there you go. Any other news? I think that's everything, right? All I'll say cinderfall gaming a gt grand tournament on the first and second of august in adelaide south australia it's going to be our first two-day event back and It's coming up. It's only a month away and I am excited. So shout out to luke stone for running the event and It's probably going to be much smaller than it would be normally because of still travel restrictions and things like that But um, it's going to be awesome and fantastic and great to be playing a tournament hammer again You lucky ducks down there in australia with your responsibility. We're all pulling for you.  You're going to do like a good wrap-up video What are you doing? Yeah, yeah, I'll um, I'll do the normal sort of tournament summary take photos and talk through the games and things like that So, um, it'll be all the stone horns doing all the stone horn things and it's going to be a lot of fun No matter what happens. There you go.  Okay. You're muted tom. That's what is we can't hear you Oh, sorry about that. There you are now. You're back All right, any other news tom? Uh, no, I think that's it All right, cool Then let's go to some pick of the week Doom, what would you like to share with everybody? Well, this is a little bit different and I've taken a bit of a liberty here But um, it is the five year and Five year anniversary show So I just sort of wanted to instead of just picking one thing I wanted to talk about hosted things and that was when I look back over five years Where we started and then where we've ended up. I just wanted to give a shout out to half a dozen people So here we go So I just wanted to firstly mention the the youtube channels The first in spiders and me particular and I know a lot of you as well So shout out to what once bitten 360 Anthony from the sustainable center and then also vid hammer fantasy They were the the reasons why a cold core group of us got into making content. I feel And then at the same time when a os first dropped There are a whole bunch of content creators that were we're all together here from day one and and we and we pushed on Through the the wild west through the no points periods and and we had a lot of internal conflicts But you know people like who's of doom and Paul Conti and rock wolf Which are all still around today And have been going forever like shout out to those guys awesome and fantastic um, and then also just a little bit of a sad note just recognize some of the channels which Um, we're really pivotal throughout that sort of development, but aren't with us anymore So people like Mitch mc1 gamer and of course william page creative name to stand out Um, you know, we miss you guys, but um, there was a time there where they uh played an important role um, and then After all of that sort of said and done and we look at what has come and what's evolved on the content creator side in youtube Like what an amazing growth and development of content creators. We've seen with the game as well so like people like um, anthony magro aos coach amazing, um, dan aos short Rob signs of the swore gamer dug from two plus tough Brent shoe and jack from rerolling ones. Hey woe twitch and mr. Mephisto, um, and of course don't be a short pants and listen to grim dark live So, um, like that that's just amazing hosts of content creators who make amazing content and it's all different And it's all just grown um over the last few years and of course now we're we're finally starting to see ages sigma move I think more into almost like more into pop culture with people like, um, you know guba town squid mara and Miniac and sword and seal and things like that, you know the size of those channels The audience they're getting is just pulling people in from everywhere So like you think about us when we were starting, you know Five six years ago and the sort of content the sort of viewers and the numbers and just how big it was back then To where it is now and it's like it's like night and day. It's just amazing So I just wanted to sort of run through that little history and a little shout out. Um, and uh, and give everyone a a pat on the bum and um, yeah Yeah, I remember when it was just like it was all touch and go right Like we're going to talk about we're absolutely going to talk about we're going to talk about but like That's not where we're at. No No, absolutely not Uh, I I cannot think of a better That is the greatest pick of the week in the history of picks of the week doom You just you just wrapped it up. That was like a that was an oscars in memoriam slash lifetime achievement Uh award that was incredible. Well, I'll be back in another five years for the 10 year one. There you go That's right. That's right. Yeah All right Tom anything you want to shout out? Um, I know there's just so many good like this what I'll say. Yes. Actually. Yes. Um, we are This show is kicking off a series of shows for the five year anniversary and so Check out the content there's like it's been all over twitter Um, but there's there's a bunch of shows that are all doing special five year anniversaries this week And so uh, check out all those shows to come Yes, and down in the description you will find the twitter hashtag to follow Which will link you to all of the five year anniversary shows So it's uh at we are the neon narrative narrative event organizer Uh, I don't know the second n is for yeah nation need something. I don't know Uh, but anyways erin who is who is in the chat right now who's who's really been leading a lot of this effort If you go follow at we are the neon twitter is down in the description. It's there right now. Actually You can follow that. Uh, erin's been doing awesome tweeting out everybody who's doing the the uh The shows you can also follow the hashtag that he just put in the comments Which is hashtag five years a os and you will find all of that So there is a bunch of content starting now going throughout the weekend. Please do check it out. Check out all these channels Uh, good shout out. Uh, I have two quick ones one Uh, the next episode of my ongoing myth busting show with travarian Came out on travarian's channel. So he and I alternate that one show is on his channel one show is on my channel The one that just came out is on his channel and it is a spicy meatball So, uh, it is the the most recent episode we tackled was uh, europe is better at miniature painting than the us Uh, so it's true It's true We break it down and talk about what we think about that myth and what that means So, uh, and just even him posting that link in like the aviar metal painting group Resulted in hundreds of interesting comments. So it was a fun time. Go check out a fun episode Uh, I was very happy with that one and uh, the next episode episode four will be on my channel And it'll be about non-metallic metal. The other thing I'll mention is that uh, although nova is canceled Don't forget that the nova open No, nova open charitable foundation the nfcf is still doing all its raffles and you can still Uh, participate in that to uh, win fig figs armies special art projects all of that stuff from lots of amazing artists And that opens up on the 15th of july So, uh, I gave a couple pieces over namely the big actual art project that I shared out this last weekend Uh, that I put together the that that thing is massive by the way If you saw what I shared of all the sort of jackson pollock Uh painting of sorts that I did out of all my wipey cloths Uh, that thing is very large. That's like a three foot by two foot canvas that that's all on so there you go and uh, also then I I did also, uh Donate my imperial fist captain that I took to golden demon So you can uh, you can also participate and win that if you like a sweet imperial fist limited edition captain Which I do because that's like the coolest 40k mini they made. So there you go Okay, right on uh, link for that is also down in the description uh now Gentlemen, what are you working on doom? What's been on your table, buddy? What's what's your hobby time been? All right, I don't know if you can see this guy. He's my um Uh corn demon prints. So I got the thermaturge put some demon wings on him demon prints wings on him and um The sword is from an iron gut and um, yeah, that's what's happening so I've got 4 000 points of his inch done. They're going to be on the channel soon and um I've got my I forgot what his name is the guy with the anvil in the chain from blades of corn He's just my slaughter Can't believe I've forgotten his name But um anyways getting my blades of corn out again working them up and the um the demon prince is leading the charge So that's what I've been working on nice now. Are you going to be running that under? Corn are you're going to be running that under corn slaves to darkness? No, it's it's corn and um, so I've got a corn bloodbound army here And I revised the list recently and I tell you what it's just one slippery slope that heads straight towards marauders so um You know as soon as you have a war shrine or one slave as soon as you have one slaves to darkness unit in there Yeah, all of a sudden it just piles piles piles and now you've just got marauders and um and war shrines with your Bloods creator and your and your slaughter priests and everything else is just slaves to darkness.  We're going to take it keep it as um as bloodbound steel We're going to put in a larmic hat for always strikes last we're going to put in that corn demon prince for that sweet commandability and to to run around and murk heroes and um and With the hex gorgeous girls the anti magic. I think they can still be uh, they can still they can still do stuff Yeah, right on I dig it. And yes, you're right It will all all building of slaves to darkness is a slippery slope down into marauder land You almost can't help yourself. You start building anything else and you're like I guess these five nights I could just make it 20 marauders and save 30 points and You're like, why do I have blood blood revives and blood warriors when there's marauders like just makes no sense Or I could just do marauders. Right. Yeah, exactly The best unit. All right, tom. What's been on your hobby table, buddy besides a bunch of magic cards in the background Ignore that. Um, no, I'm nothing actually. I'm building a patio outside and so like I've been literally Laying 12 by 12 inch pavers in sand for the last week Okay, how's that marathon game coming tom? I mean It'll happen You got you got you got about uh, what four days until your house gas shows up and about uh eight days until you need to get down here So, you know, yeah, yeah, we'll see. It'll be fine. Mm-hmm. Just just get it done, buddy. Get it done Uh For myself my until you can't see it right now But everything you cannot see on this screen around me right now looks like a whirlwind hit my office Okay, weird Because it's like you can kind of see a little tiny bit of it in the background right there But it is it is time for Display board to making that is what it is and when it comes time to build the display board that i'm building and Utilizing the Let's say things that i'm using I'm so i'm looking off camera because i'm staring at it right now This ridiculous thing that i have built and around built on to whatever And uh, and and so i'm at the the board itself is just starting back there.  So there you go Uh, that might that is going to be my hobby time for at least a good week It is not an oil drum It is not an oil drum.  I am very pleased though with what it is So Time will come don't worry. We'll all see eventually tom has seen it, but that's it I have yeah but, um It's uh, it's a thing. It's a it's a heck of a thing. That's what i'll say All right. Anyway, let's get to this so Gentlemen five years of aos. Here we are five years five years, man five Five years. All right. Good pass at yoga.  Shall we? Bam your faces are now covered for a moment. The age of sygmar is coming pre-order fourth july 2015 okay And So that was the initial advertisement we saw And then I remember as I was driving down to tom's house I believe for this marathon Actually that we're gonna that we're gonna finish here tom. Yeah in like, uh In like a week We saw these images Okay This is one of the images we saw which was of like the lord cellistant on drakoff and the Prosecutors and the liberators and at the time we had no idea what any of this was we saw them against the corn blood bound and all that sort of stuff So, uh, we'll put that we'll put those pictures away for a moment. Let's talk about the launch itself guys. Okay The launch itself so a os launches What do you think well, what was your initial thoughts take yourself back to that time doom? Let's start with you. Where was your head space at at this time period? Oh boy, um So the box set and the miniatures I saw them and I thought these are awesome, right? These are really really cool Uh, there was the whole square base to round base controversy at the time and it was um, and I had to Uh come to terms within myself that I actually liked them on rounds better than squares Um, and that probably didn't happen till I rebased some of my beasts and looked at them on on rounds And I was like, hmm. Actually, this is nice Uh, but so I thought the models are excellent This is just going to be a short released without any points or anything like that And then we're going to get like the proper book, right? We're going to get like it proper And we didn't for some time, but I'm jumping ahead. So I was I was eagerly Anxious. I was I was happy for it.  So I was like, please be good. Please be good. Please be good That's the truth Nope, fair enough tom. What about yourself? I don't know I just I remember being really mixed on it.  Uh, I uh I don't know is the answer. Well, I I don't know how I can sum it up exactly confusion Yeah, yeah, I think that's accurate Confusion was the word of the day Because I agree with you like I looked at the models and said Uh Yeah, those are cool. I like I had always wanted something like stormcast Right when we had talked before and I'd always wanted like I wanted the good guys to have something on the equivalent of chaos I hated that they had like that they had the market cornered on You know warriors on on like I just every Video if you want to proof in this pudding by the way Go watch all the old game trailer videos for like war And all the other war hammer fantasy video games that feature a warrior priest because they always featured a warrior priest And the way always featured the warrior priest getting Killed just housed had just housed Like the warrior priest would get messed up and then he would like rise up and summon the power of sigmar And then his eyes would glow and then he would just get like knead in the nuts by uh, To be sorry to be director.  I saw a coach mention that in the chat I didn't care about that. I don't really love the old world much Right. Uh, I never did it's fine like Whatever if you love it. It's fine. I'm not trying to yuck. You're young like what you like Okay Um, but I had no I'm saying I had no personal attachment to it. So I was excited I always liked planescape more than forgotten realms and Or grayhawk and what we did is leave old boring derivative grayhawk and and catapult into planescape. So I was all about it right Uh, but the the confusion that was there What books are coming? What's happening? Are we gonna get points? Are we not? You know, I went back and looked at some text messages for the time and I saw I saw I said texts that were like Oh, no, we're definitely gonna get points. It was gonna. You know, it's gonna be coming. I'm sure this is just like the initial loss Points are definitely coming. Yeah Right That was and like so often The I agree with mogwine man.  I thought they were amazing. Anyways, the um, the The just general confusion and we're gonna go to the next picture and I'm gonna prove to you just how confusing The early times of aos were you ready? So pictures back up on screen Here we go So we saw our stormcast and there was general confusion There was no points and immediately there was like people making we had mo comp and azir comp and just you know A bunch of different stuff like that people immediately adding points and getting the game playable And then we had this And what's up on the screen right now gentlemen is warhammer age of sigmar battle tome chaos dread hold We got the first battle tome released. You mean this Hold on. I'll put the picture down Did you have it tom? There it is Yep, that's what I mean. That's right only to be topped in weirdness By this Something most of you don't even know exists. Sure now to be here's the funny thing about the dominion of chaos tom I'll leave that to the side for a moment because I want to talk about that oddity later. Okay. Yeah, okay Because timing wise the dominion of chaos is actually a really interesting book. But anyways That was the first book we got literally the first battle tome was chaos dread hold And had nothing of of like what? What was going on in the early Weeks and months of this game and this was not yet new gw. Everything was close to the best There was no aggressive community team or communication. No communication What was going on confusion? Reigned We didn't even have get a member. We didn't even have a book of like grand alliance order Yeah, those hadn't come out yet correct. That that was a long time right Yes So this was just total madness like to be honest with you Like day one it comes out. Okay. Okay. There's no points. There's nothing I'll self-comp myself try and bring something reasonable down to the table to get like an understanding of how the game works And we had sudden sudden sudden death rules into the basic like to win or lose right if this guy dies because you have more No, and so first thing I do I put down my friend rocks up smiles at me puts in the gash and the bloody Necrus thinks down and just solos my entire chaos army I had five games in a row back to back where I was the only one self-comping and everyone else was going full ham on me And I was like, okay, it's okay.  It's fine. And then when this dreadhold stuff came out We were I remember sitting here and we were sort of talking we're going oh, no They've got this grand design this great plan where they're trying to build a new type of world and a new Imaginative gaming system, which is in a complete different direction and games workshop are the biggest modeling company in the world So they know what they're doing and this is going to be great Let's wait and see but really that no idea and they were just flinging shit out left right center You know, what have we got ready guys?  I think you could start to feel that the change in the wind But that first six months especially the latter half of 2015 just felt like complete chaos like nobody knew what was going on I agree the house was on fire Some people were sitting around going everything's fine Some people were grabbing cups of water and just tossing it around Somebody was trying to like spray foam, but it wasn't like actual anti, you know flame retardant foam It was like party rave foam Yeah, and it was just chaos. It was just Playing in the background like yeah Yes uh It was And this is I think an interesting time because it's where the community Stepped up right like let's be honest the The latter half of 2015 and certainly into the early part of 2016 This was the time when they when I think we as a community all got together and went okay The company doesn't know what they're doing Right like I mean Admittedly it was the one of the worst launches It was a it was a it was as bad as the original launch of like of star wars galaxies the mmo Or when war launched or when no man's sky launched, right? Like it was one of these things that was so built up to just crash and burn as a horrible It was up right up there with these bad video game launches, right now I mentioned all of those because those did all actually become really good games They had really rough initial launches, but then all became good games So I think there's actually a good parallel there, right? And I think that the community all kind of got together and said well I guess we'll make a game then Right and just took the pieces we were handed And made a game like tom and I made the Mordheim rule set And you had you know just called it out in the the chat. Yeah And you had various people making Incredible community rule sets for everything by the way, right You know filling out scenarios for people who wanted more scenarios filling out points for people who wanted points, right? Just just everything that was needed the community stepped in and created Yep, right Yep, that's what happened we the whole deal We had um, you know, there's 20 odd plus battery reports in a playlist on my channel of back in the wild west times with no points And of those 20 odd battery reports five and were actually some of the best games I ever had whereas You know, we're rocking around with 13 monsters on the table On you know monster only armies and stuff like that But in order to get one good game you had to have like four bad games And then it was and I was literally at the point where I'd persevered persevered I really wanted to work and then mo comp and pool comp came out and We started playing those at a local club And then the true once you had some sort of balance constraints The the game itself is able to shine through and it was so much fun Um, and we started having a blast with the freedom of it just with some restrictions and um Yeah, and that's when it started to take off and then of course Probably the next thing on your little slide vince Yes, so let's uh, let's go here So after this dread hold there's one more book I wanted to highlight Everybody remember the first seraphon book? I highlight this one because just to continue the cast of what the heck is going on when we kind of got one of these I highlight the seraphon book because it wasn't the first actual army battle tome, but it was the first non released armies battle tome because the first two were storm cast and bloodbound right that they came out with Uh, I'm not just bloodbound.  That's right Very nice tom Very nice. I like how yeah tom had to go get all his ridiculous toys uh The seraphon one though, that's when we introduced dream lizards, right? That's where that whole concept came from and we're like, okay What is happening? So we had just like left turned on a left turn like we were just shooting off Literally into the stars It was madness And we were all given into it like okay, I guess seraphon are all just dream lizards now Just remembered into existence.  I cannot explain how weird this whole time was Yeah, uh, but yes So 2015 turns into 2016. I remember there was a december release there that you missed I'm not gonna go through every release tom. Yes. I just for you ever chosen But this was this was I think this highlights the weirdness even farther than the lizards Okay, okay the ever chosen battle tone. We get the ever chosen battle tone This battle tone has four units on sure. Yes Okay, it is an entire battle tone uh The collector's edition book isn't even a normal size Like let me point that out This doesn't fit on any normal bookshelf, right because it's not it's not a standard finding. Yes, right So the it's like an over like the case is an oversized book And if you want it on your shelf you have to not have the box With all the metal tokens and the art prints and the and the everything It is it was just weird just weird Tom is one of the seven people on the planet that owns the limited edition ever chosen battle tone Hypothetically, there are a thousand people. No hypothetically, there were a thousand printed and hypothetically There are a lot sitting in a warehouse in gw somewhere or in various stores or sold off the second hand stores And let me point out There were there were more units in that book. I'm sorry. There were more battalions in that book than units Well, you've got rk and environment guard. You don't need much more But this was this was also the time of the silly rules, you know, they were all still rampant through all the different factions and Also, we were still very much in all the armies had been broken down into key words specific sub factions little What do you call them little ghettos? Yeah, a little ghettos danglers. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. And um, and that was very Yeah, the ghettoization of aos and Yep, and the legacy war scrolls with the the carryover rules with the the silly rules. That was the world we're in still Yep. Yep. So I like I remember that first adepticon from 2016 And there was what maybe 60 people I think for that turn of that year. I wasn't there that yeah, I was there that year Uh, it was good fun though. Everybody who was there was having a great time It was because that was they were using obviously one of the I don't remember what exact comp they were using that year But they were using one of them and what I will say is uh It was really fun and everybody there had a really great time and alex did that was where I think alex proved That he's one of the greatest toos ever by running that and keeping it alive and and having a great Freaking tournament with 60 people that showed and just growing and growing from there okay So back to the pictures so seraphon you're ever chosen we get into 2016 The wind starts changing with with the with you know, sort of what's happening at adepticon and announcements and then of course Uh, oh, sorry before that. Sorry. I do have one more thing I wanted to real quick talk about the forgotten tomes. So I have this up on the screen right now These are the this is the forgotten tomes Okay, so these are all the tomes they printed that don't actually have any rules in them right They're just like picture books and story books. It's fine. There's nothing wrong a lot of good stories in here Yep, but they have like no rules. So this is dread old eternals blood bound seraphon ever chosen first fire slayers Skaven pestilence pestilence Yeah, yeah to be careful. They're lore books with the war scrolls, right? They had the war scrolls, but But there's no allegiance rules. There's no artifacts. There's no items. There's no sense of any of that They do have battalions in those though. Sure Storm cast extremists iron jaws and the last one was fleshy your courts These are all of the forgotten tomes right the like They just have no actual real purpose basically. I have some of those all for my shelf. I'm sure you do I'm sure you do but at the end of the period of forgotten tomes Then came this magical book right here the first general's handbook 2016 points being in there Uh the designation into open narrative and match play created in us at the same time too, right? We'll get there in a second. We'll get to something shortly after so uh the You know the open match the narrative breakdown. We get points. We get we we get you know the rules refined Uh scenarios basically This was this was it. I'm gonna minimize that out again. So oh hold on. What do you got there doom? What's that? Well, I mean the ghp was excellent But what about this first anniversary hessian sack they gave out to everyone? All right Is that a real thing? That's a real thing. You got this in store when you purchased over x amount of dollars the one year anniversary of age of sigma This hessian sack. It's amazing. And um, and I got another one. I think this is a 40k one, but um I just remember that actually. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so Like I just thought that was so cool and I thought this is a hessian sack. I'm never gonna use it I'm still coming up with ideas, but I thought I just want to keep it because When are you ever gonna get like? It's true. That's amazing You know All right gentlemen, you're the two of you need to vamp for just a second.  I was super proud of the fact that I have one of the display backgrounds Yeah, like, you know, I'm talking about like how they you know when they've set up on a little two by two section And they tip the like the background that had like the lava scape with the lightning strikes and said Yeah, I have one of those Right the square with the uh, like the realm of battle board square that came with it And I was proud of that No, no, my my sacks way cooler air sack. It's way cooler So um, let's go and talk about the points though because yeah when the points were introduced with ghb 2016 it was like a revolution for the game and everyone that I knew that had stopped playing completely flocked back to it and and started to try it again and then also everyone that was And a lot of 40k players also decided to try to come across and the player base went from Basically like eight of us hipsters really trying to make it work to you know, 16 or 24 players in my local community Almost overnight. So that introduction of points was just revolutionary It was just night and day like it was just it completely changed the entire conception of what was going on. Um Yeah, it was so good. It was so good All right, and um, is that how you got to stay mate? So you're good. We're meant to be padding for time here while Ginks is away Well, I'm gonna move on without him Good, so at at about the same time within a month or two. It was that summer We'd had glimpses at least before the ghb of sylvanum coming Right. Um, we had seen the image of like the ghost elf, right with like stuff growing out of them and everybody was like The elves are here. What's going on? Yeah, and then we got we got a larial Yeah, which was like again like one thing that uh, that gw Like that was banging on all cylinders at this time was their model design Yeah, because they had archaeon and then they had a larial Shortly within short order within about six months. Um, and they showed that they can build models Yep, really really pretty ones Yep, and um, that's where we also saw rob sites, right on his little stool with his sylvaneth battle tone That's right. So hold on. Let's bring up the picture That was that was that was my introduction to rob boom order battle tomes sylvaneth The the the book that would change it all right Because this is the one that would set basically the template going forward now, obviously it's been refined some there are things out of this that that they ended up obviously changing and you Know they they went from having uh Sort of mega battalions and everything into sub factions and you know, like so there were design shifts But this was really when we introduced command traits and artifacts and Everything that we now think of as being the construction of a modern battle tone And yes, this was also when we got introduced to this big gorgeous army, right? Like this was game changer all over and yes, I remember rob That the thing was they handed him the book and they just had him read the book and he's like, oh What's this? Oh, that's amazing. Well, you know, they just had rob being rob Right, that was the that was the sylvaneth teaser video Right. Yep Yeah, yeah, this this this book meant so much for age of sigma moving forward the feedback Around it was overwhelmingly positive and it added so much more to the different armies and the allegiances So this was the the template that got applied for the next few the next few battle times And then it got modified a little bit more again Yep, yep, absolutely so I mean Oh wait, and it was the introduction of those most horrible poxy trees onto the tabletop which for years Ruined my life. So Yeah, just wanted to get that little bit out there. I agree. It was a lot a little some good some bad Uh, there's the first time we made the mistake of introducing a bunch of forests that would that would go out everywhere And uh, somehow even now this last year we've failed to learn from our mistakes Not a lesson that we learned But is it the first introduction of faction specific terrain which then yes, you know carried across as well Yes, well the trees have been around for a long time like it had always kind of been the concept that that that uh Wood elves would have woods they would put down like that isn't a new Thing that had been in in in ios though. It was the first implementation of um, of faction specific terrain. Yeah Yeah, yep, yep, absolutely But we didn't see it like that at the time, right? We saw it Like here is like valuation of what wood elves had always done right like we're like, of course they get these and then we get to like a Uh, I guess nergal and so then we get like late in this edition and suddenly like everything is drained Yeah, not everything but uh, we begin to see it crop up in other armies. Let me see it that way. Sure. Yeah So the sylvaneth tome really set I think this was the other big game changer, right between ghp 2016 And the sylvaneth tome it really felt like there in 2016.  This is a full-fledged game now your armies are your armies. There's a reason to play your armies They feel like real armies they do things when you take certain things together in a real way And this is the future. I think we for the first time saw the future snap into focus Yeah, most importantly we we saw a direction You know and and that was so important is just to be able to look at the game and go Okay, this is what the game is and this is where it's headed. Excellent. Let's go. Yep Now I want to return to something tom that you mentioned earlier. So here's here's how this went sylvaneth was the first one And I think we still regard sylvaneth as kind of a high watermark. It was a great book It was a great army release that book held up for quite a while Yeah, uh, yes, there were problems with it, but it was all in all a pretty darn decent book We got bone splitters next that was the next book we got. Yeah, do you know what the third book was? Get out the dominion of chaos tom because that was that's when that released Just randomly in the middle dominion of chaos So we were getting these new tomes and then they were like and also Here's this dominion of chaos book. You're like we're gonna try the terrain book 2.0 So this is when we had like the numinous oculum dragon fate dais baleful realm gate Uh, you know fideon archway these things right? Yep Yeah, not with war scroll with battalions So like here's a battalion that is three baleful realm gates Called the realm matrix It is a terrain battalion Here is the bound arcana view Battalion I got nothing. Well, I will say like there was Because they model all of these they came up with them internally They had a heavy focus on age of sigma terrain Leading up to its release and it was a conscious effort to say, you know what we want to make terrain a big part of this game and um, and I guess That is different from what we'd seen from them in warhammer fantasy and so forth Right, and especially in such a short amount of time to come out with so many new terrain kits and two battle tomes for the terrain You know, it was such a an intentional part of their design of what they wanted age of sigma to be So I actually think that's really cool. Um, and I actually want to see them continue to develop that because the terrain side of of uh age of sigma is um, I think extremely important like um I think that that ties in with the amazing models and amazing terrain that just makes for amazing gaming. So Um, they were a bit off with how they try to implement it I'm not sure they knew what they were doing there, but um overall I I do like the focus that they had on it Yeah, it was just such an interesting book to insert into the middle of it because we felt like we were on a roll I'm like, oh, okay. See where the game's going. We're going to start getting army battle tomes This is what's happening and then bam dominion of chaos just smash it nowhere Proving that they could still they could still suddenly go left on us, right? Just like you think they're going right Nope, they'll zag Yeah, they went a hundred percent sure where they were going still at that point They had some indications, but it was still a bit um, yeah a bit up in the air So we got the beast claw raiders book and I think this is important So I mentioned in the comments because the end of uh 2016 Would bring us the warham request box set which would reveal a lot of models Oh, we lost tom. That's okay. Tom. We'll be back in a moment. I'm sure Uh, so we got the warham request box set which revealed of course a couple interesting models that would eventually lead to What in my opinion was the next game changer battle tome? 2017 kicking off strong with the disciples of zeech battle tome Okay, well that was a learning experience. Yes, so I bring this up say one obviously we got to see a lot of the models from Silver tower get sort of brought into into play, right? Some of them. Yes, some of them. Yes, uh, but also It was like when we actually made a turn. This is here's the important change that happened with disciples of zeech Okay There was this magical thing that hadn't really happened In the first couple years of a os that we all didn't realize we weren't having discussions about And that was the concept of busted armies Sure, like there were busted models Like we would talk about a model being busted or something, right? Yeah But when battle tomes weren't really a thing and even then when they are they weren't really kind of even the silver One was like, okay, it's cool. It's neat that they can do this stuff, but it was it was what it was But disciples of zeech introduced the idea of a broken army when people were just like this army is broken Yeah We're something of mechanics that are just so dominant That you're just like, yep, you know, obviously combined with units, right? It would it would relaunch us into the age of arguing over which army was out of balance And of course zeech would be at the top of that list Many times throughout in in between the in between 2017 and even now to this day It still haunts us. Oh that though the changer of ways. He's clearly we didn't learn that lesson. No No, we did not I feel like and I don't know this for a fact But I think that zench was pivotable Pivotal in the implementation of play testing at games workshop because I don't think at this point They had any play testing or any comprehensive or or systemic play testing or anything like that It was just, you know rules writers make it. It's great It's and and put it out and we were like, well, what's going on They'd seen this massive growth in an age of sigma They saw there was real potential there for its future and then with this book It was all of a sudden like, whoa You know, we need to make sure that we don't have this book repeat again And I feel like this book was responsible for the implementation of play testing and all the things that we've seen come afterwards So, um, I don't know if that's true. Like I I don't know if that's true, but that's my my feeling We didn't know No, there was there was no talk No talk about play testers until before that and people who I know that were first gen play testers I don't think they were play testers at this point in time. Yeah Yeah, so, um, that's that's a really interesting dot Because it really did have a huge impact like when zench did what zench did initially It was the first time that we just seen it like vince said where it just came out and it just smashed everyone like Oh, those skyfires were just ridiculous change shows was ridiculous any any type of zench army you built was crazy Destiny dice just cheating just straight cheating just friend Yeah, and the mortal wound output from the spells was insane and um, wow it was just what an army um And we saw it win the australian masters that year as well. It won a depticon barely that year yeah and The so it was that's what like that's why I really wanted to talk about that tome because it was so fascinating to me How hard we had pivoted when you think about really I want you to think about this for a moment Yeah, the tome that immediately preceded Disciples of zinch was the beast claw raiders book I'll go to peace and and the tome that immediately proceeded it that followed it Was the storm cast of turtles 2017 version like the forgotten star the the most forgotten storm cast of turtles The vanguard the vanguard edition correct. Yep It was just such this singular meteorite striking the earth, right? Uh, it was crazy How how weird of an impactful and out of balance that book was when it hit Yeah, yeah, we had other things around that time like vanguard wing with storm cast and there was there was quite a lot of um Little really skewed things that were going around At that time. Well, no vanguard wing was next year Was it like yeah? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah because that year this was at like because um vanguard wing hit its peak then a year later um because I remember very clearly because that this year the top tables at adepticon were like my mixed chaos and uh, or no top table was uh, dame helen uh with sylvaneth and uh, shon clark with Uh, tomb kings and because that was right in the middle of the spamming of the tomb kings height um, and then table two was um Was kaleb piloting a zinge and then me on with mixed chaos Because it was it was it was zanyuary, right? Yeah, it was zanyuary was that was that was three months prior and i'm talking in march. Yeah. Um, and then the next table was like um so Relium was running, uh, like the The snowball hurling mixed destruction the the moot moot clan. Yeah, I mean i mean can con 2017 I reckon we had vanguard wing and sench smashing each other. Yes. Like that's the following the following year um, because then that's the year that we had the uh zinge on Uh zinge on vanguard wing for the championship right So But 2017 would give us many interesting things at the beginning of the year So obviously we got as you mentioned the vanguard for uh, storm cast eternals Which largely was like one of the coolest looking part of the storm cast army that I think still to this day is Kind of always been under represented in the rules. It's always been sort of the one that didn't have the best home Uh, it would give us the blades of corn. So book two Second so so we're on our all in first mission. Right. Well, we're on our third storm cast book Yep, okay Yep That that storm cast was the third storm cast book Yep, and then we get our second corn book. Can't can't get enough of those Yeah, I I could go grab that other one that I want sure But of course we cannot leave behind another critical release of 2017. There was one more Critical critical book that would come out in 2017 tom Do you remember what book that was tom? What what army book came out in 2017? Yeah Uh In april late april of 2017 We we got ko we did We got the karadrin overlords as they hit and we got this taste of you know, what truly I think the Aos army look the aos of aos armies look like the aosification of armies look like like this It was it became what I would consider the paradigm example of aos armies Uh, oh martin said that was the second storm cast book. No, it wasn't there were three There was the original storm cast eternals and then there was storm cast extremists Which yes was not a full storm cast eternals battle tome But there was a storm cast extremist book which I am counting as a storm cast book Y'all got four books. Don't try to pretend like one of them didn't get pretty Yes. Yes. Yes. So yes at any rate Yes, karadrin overlords 2017 and it was like, oh my god. It's crazy. It hits the table. The shooting is insane It's madness. We're like zinge 2.0. Let's do this. Yeah guns coming out everywhere People spamming mortars And and and the world freaks out and explodes right immediately everybody's freaking out about ko and the damage It could do at range and all of all hypothetical. They didn't actually take any events Sure, but immediately there was chaos because everybody was afraid of ko and the shooting power it represented And so what immediately happens is a series of quick changes where every war scroll the book basically gets changed Including like a hard reprint of a full war scroll in the general zand book 2017 That was three months later. Yeah, there's three months later Whatever it was july august. Yeah came out. It was august. Yep four months. Yep, where we got the reprint of the New thunder scroll the new thunder scroll just randomly. Here's a new war scroll Weirdest way to decide to do that ever Yep Tom goes in hard on ko and then they change his whole army out from under him And tell me if I don't do that all over the internet Oh, the local I'd ever seen tom. He was raging everywhere writing letters to game designers and firing rockets left right and center He was so upset and um, I have no sympathy for him This was the summer of rage for tom because this is also when they would do all the tomb kings Changes in this same year. Okay. Yeah, yeah, and I remember they were earlier in the year They were in the January right here. Yes. Yeah. No, no, I do have sympathy for you tom I I know how much first money you spent to get the units with that composition of weapons And then also the effort in the conversions to to make that cool army and then bam that change hit and it was rage time Let me just say that like it was the first army that I've went all in on that was an aos army Like everything I had prior to that were fantasy armies And so this was the time that I went Okay, fine. If this is the direction we're going I'm gonna buy in to aos And I bought in And then they moved they swept the carpet right out from underneath me. Sure Yeah, and this is the so what I'll call 2017 is the year of rage Okay Because that yes, tom this was tom's year of rage the tomb kings changes the ko changes And what was What was crazy about it was that that would be the last battle tone we'd get in 2017? Yeah Right Yeah, we'd just kind of sit there and we didn't like we got other stuff later in the year Like other things came out later in the year. Obviously general's handbook and beyond But that was the last actual battle tone we would get in 2017. I remember with us going What's going on? Are we just not getting stuff anymore? No, obviously 40k Their new addition would come out that year, right? So that was that took up a lot of the the oxygen in the room But uh But that was a that was a heck of a year Doom what anything else you thought about that about 2017 about that ko and then months of nothing No, no, I was pretty happy actually at that point to be honest with you Anything I'll say about ko and the change the war scroll was that it probably signified the future for storm fiends and also a bit of a recognition of direction with games workshop about how they write their rules To be linked with the actual model kits themselves so that um I think there was a point there where they said right from now on we are going to try to Make right rules for new units where you know, you don't need to buy 10 boxes to get 10 of the weapons to make one unit Um, and I think we've seen that sort of carry out to some extent since then Um in pretty much everything and then updated for other units like storm fiends, for example as as times happened So it was a bit of a uh a recognition point and a change in in gw's Uh process as well. Yeah. Yeah, I agree All right, so 2017 fades away yep and That leads us right into 2018 and here I have the maggotkin of nergal kicking off 2018 much as well, you know much as it's uh, it's zinchi brother had before And they were and that was the second book where we got terrain. Let me point that out Yes, so now again, that's the reason I pulled maggotkin is multiple things Yep, so I pulled maggotkin one because yes, it introduced us to faction terrain when we got the trees. Yep, right? Yep Also, the the relevant part about maggotkin was obviously it heralded The coming change of the plague touched. Well, uh, no of the summer No plague touch happened the year before for me. Oh, what happened here was that We began to predict because malign importance happened the month after this and we began to predict Because of how terrible the summoning was because the mechanics were working I remember saying if this stuff was free, I wouldn't hate the summoning mechanic, but it's not right, right? Yep And then exactly right it would herald the beginning of the soul wars and the coming of aos 2.0, right? We'll get the logo change Uh that maggot maggotkin of nergal and so over the first We would get the last four battle tomes that were all like quote unquote aos 2.0 ready But we're still aos 1.0 tomes in nergal legions of negash daughters of kane and Oof. Yeah, right? That was a hot three months. It was a very packed three four month period. Yeah, absolutely I submit you skipped firestorm the firestorm campaign. Um, I did just don't even talk about it Just well, no, you know, but you gotta remember like I want to point this out Like that prior summer was the firestorm campaign was actually a live event that got tracked and the results from that live event globally dictated the design of the um, the trajectory Yeah, but there's like 50 of all the armies you could play were order So they tracked them throughout all the different stores Just like skew so order one like what do you do like but that became our cities of sigmar Like yeah, but is that like we Yeah, I hated that. I hated the bolt on that was firestorm. I I could not stand it and And uh, and I started to get frustrated at that point with bolt-ons into aos And um, I just I saw this ever blue a ballooning problem with it. Yeah, and um, and and I really wasn't a fan So I'm happy that that evolved into seas of sigmar because seas of sigmar is excellent But I wasn't a big fan of of of that at all sure Sure. Yeah, no totally fair Uh, I just want to point out that the daughters of cane trailer initially released at lbo Uh, we're still still the greatest army release trailer. They've ever done I remember when they did that and we did our reaction video and we're like we're in Yeah, frame by frame. They had me in that trailer incredible Second best is obviously the the slanesh trailer really reveal But we had daughters the best any Any rules any anything and I remember we were both like, okay, let's do this. We're buying this army. Yes I saw the tail of marathi and I was like, I'm in for this army. That's all I I saw some some some snake ladies And some elves with the wings and I was like, this is this is what I have been waiting for all of my life Yeah, this was incredible. It was Uh, yeah, I would all uh can con barbecue Um, just as can con was happening just at the the friday night before it kicked off and that trailer came out and everyone was just losing their minds Yeah, it was incredible. It was so good and uh, I've watched that like I have watched that trailer Without hyperbole 500 times Okay, that's not an exaggeration because I made a playlist of that trailer and like three other songs that I thought all fit The sort of murder cult aspect of daughters of kane and I would paint for hours Watching a loop on youtube of those four things So it was about 13 minutes of content And for months I would paint with just that 13 minutes of content rolling in the background while I was painting my daughters So, uh, yeah, I've watched that trailer a lot of times a lot of times So half of the watch total count is just me. Yeah, it's just me. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly uh, all right so We would get what did you think of uh, of eideneth when they came out doom because that was obviously another big army, right?  I loved them. I absolutely loved that as a concept and as a direction And I thought this is going to look amazing on the tabletop with the seahorses the turtle like a fantastic opportunity for painters to really get into it and just make a a spectacular army and so, um Uh, I guess this was also the introduction of always strikes first in a sense, which uh, you know, I'm a very I don't like at all um, but um But it was just this one army, right? So okay, it's cool. This is their specific thing. Um, no problems, right? No problems. Everything's still okay. It's fine. You know, wrong. Yeah, wrong Um, but the army itself. I loved it. I like the idea of it. Um, everything was cool People will seem to be upset about the aether sea concept, but you know, like it's a magic world So no make whatever. Um, but no, I'm excellent Yeah, I think truly the one tragedy of eidneth was it was it was the One of the worst internally balanced books When it initially came out, you just had things that were so all over the shop On on efficiency and on just like effectiveness on efficacy between the incredible idolons that still aren't probably playable for their points, uh, or Not really the best choice. I mean, they're okay now. They've got no place where they're like, okay I don't want to say they're unplayable. That's not fair They also now can't take realm items But like it's a real crime to not have aspects of the storm and aspects of the sea on the tabletop To not have turtles crunching around exactly the turtle was my real heart, right? Yeah Yeah, poor sharks like sharks are just now playable at 100 Yeah, so I think that it was it was when it came out It was just so weirdly off balance and if you remember they actually then printed the wrong points Yeah, immediately after that like it came out and then the ghb adjusted the points incorrectly and then you know, like everything was all like that that was just a a mess Well, and that's when we got our six month rotations, right? Yeah, was immediately following that we got the promise that fall of every six months you will get an adjustment Sure I mean everyone learns from their mistakes, right? But so far we're like mistake mistake mistake mistake, sure But Yeah, it's a great game Yeah, sure. All right, so we get those tomes and then of course that leads us into malign sorcery And which is obviously the birth of the endless spells a massive number of endless spells and Stormcast Eternals with the launch of aos 2.0 That summer in 2018 So, uh, which was a really well handled. I think transition into a quote-unquote new edition of a game It was a beautiful launch. Like it was just a one or smooth transition Yeah, well, come on. Do we need to talk about the countdown to my importance or what? Oh, well, jeez Obviously that was a bunch of luckily that wasn't to the new edition, right? That was The new edition was a smooth transition. All right, we'll let it slide then cool and wonderful Wonderful starter box Wonderful, like it was just uh, it was a wonderful edition change. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I agree So, you know the that fourth stormcast Eternals book fourth time's a charm. We'll get it Still didn't get it. That was the one that I stopped buying the limited edition the collector's edition version The full No, I did buy that one the one out. No There hasn't been one sense No, no Maybe maybe in the future you will but I don't know. I looks like I did buy that one too. So there you go The yes, we have stormcast. We got night haunts. It was a smooth launch endless spells were invigorating And here's what I'll say they did clean up the rules But what I'm very impressed by is obviously a os when we had glue fight we skipped over glues. We didn't speak skip I've got it. Oh, there's the next year. Okay. Sorry. I got We got our ghosty boys in our stormcast. Yep. And here's what I actually was very impressed with The a os one rules were four pages, right? That was the challenge and and you know, that was Quite literally the challenge handed to jervis. He's been very open about this that somebody said You have to write this in four pages Like he's he's told this story, right? Somebody said you have four pages to do the entire rules for the game You may not go one word over four pages and he talked about how he got it down to like 12 or eight and he thought it was still kind of, you know, it was like That was a little too thin and he took that up to to whomever and they said nope four Four is what it has to be, right? Yeah and I find it fascinating that a os 2.0 We actually went to basically a 12 page rule set We did with two of those pages kind of being not as necessary It's actually more like a 10 page rule set because two of the pages are kind of extraneous information about stuff That you don't necessarily need Yep, uh, you know garrisoning rules and things like that uh, but I thought it was uh Actually exactly right and it's funny to me because if he had stuck To his original 10 pages 10 pages or whatever We probably would have had something more like the a os 2 rule set originally Yep, right And I think for the most part the a os 2 rule set has proven itself to be quite robust Built on that 10 12 pages of rules. It's strong. Yep. It's got a reading Yep Doom, what did you think about the 2.0 launch? Um Stacking command abilities was the first I'm always bringing up the negatives. So let's not focus on that. So um, I'm not So, you know, yeah, I'll be I'll be I'll be tom for today No, listen, um, you're right sacrosanct chamber and storm cast were amazing knight haunt was absolutely fantastic and um the most the biggest thing that impressed me most was the Uh, the concept behind endless spells and having a physical representation of spells on the tabletop For me, that's the the coolest new introduction to age of sigma in a long long time and um, so it was Overall, I was really happy with it. I think yeah, no, I was pretty happy with it. It's good No, I agree I think that it was good and you know, look, it's fair your pushback Like some of the endless spells were way wrong when they were initially printed like spell portal was completely busted When it was initially printed like we don't need to gloss over this There were a lot of problems with command point stacking Right like there was there was challenges Although on the bright side those were hammered down fairly tightly tight and quickly like this is it's at this time like their Like feedback rule response FAQ cycle hit that two week mark Like about this time. I think it was where like when things would get caught That stuff would get locked down quickly Yeah Yeah, I think I think as well the other really significant point here was the implementation of their you know, their rules writing standards their standard language for Use with certain rules. So That was really important because it meant that we didn't have three different units with rules That did the same thing But in three different ways which meant they could open up the potential to interact with other rules in different ways So to bring all that in line and and and streamline it is is another critical point in in the development of age sigma I believe Yeah 100% AOS too is when they when they formally introduced their glossary Right when they when they actually put together their full glossary of terms and started using it when you started to see like Rules that were clearly doing the same thing worded in the same verbiage Yeah, right so that the confusion stopped. Yes absolutely, okay so AOS two or the other the other tome by the way the only other tome that would come out that year Uh in 2018 there is one more that was our beast of chaos Which maybe we can say You know, kind of not the best home had a lot of potential. No, it was the it is the best Tome to today. I think if you take night horn and beast of chaos, that's what I want every tome to be Sure, right not zench. I think I think that they uh, they got left behind by by all the other tomes that came out But if I could go back and rework them all I want them all to be beast of chaos or all to be night horn I don't disagree with you in premise in principle. There's I will push back slightly on this Where I felt like they missed the opportunity with beast of chaos was that they still hadn't fully contemplated the And it's really really pronounced in beasts They still hadn't fully contemplated the elite model problem and what that meant And they still hadn't contemplated the non hero monster problem And by the way, this is still a problem at the state that we haven't solved right right the non hero monster problem Is very pronounced in beast of chaos when you have things like chimeras and gorgons and cygors and all that stuff That are just so janky and and worthless like I went back And was looking at the gorgon Right the gorgon is one of the coolest models they've ever made that kid is very old, right? Yeah And yet still amazing to this day. That is a gorgeous gorgeous model the gorgon cygore kit is Fantastic top to bottom. I will hear no other no other takes right it is a jewel of a or of warhammer models That model Assuming it's unwounded and it gets into something. Okay Does an average of like six damage In its current rule set that's what it does six damage Okay, sounds like a 200 point model to me Does that feel at all appropriate for that monster like when you the versimilitude cracks Like that that just breaks There is no way that monster does six damage on average Yep And that's where I feel like the beast of chaos tomas let down not with stuff like I feel like they have the horde stuff Right The gores and the ungores and and the best of gores are all cool and have a lot of potential The way bray shaman's buff that their people and make a move faster The the herd stone is one of the best pieces of terrain that they like a faction terrain that they ever made in the way it interacts Their summoning is smooth and perfect like there are so many elements of that tome that are right on But it has these massive achilles heels that just hurt my soul I I I agree with you power level wise, which I think is what you're saying The beast of chaos tome and the night haunt tome and by the way like the slaves to darkness minus marauders I would put in there Probably maw tribes is in this space honestly Lager, uh, there's a lot of tomes that I would slide into this space The blades the current blades of corn tome, which we'll talk about in just a moment, right? I think fits in this space Right These are the good tomes We look at them with a bit of scance because There are all these other busted tomes that came out around them Right, right, right, but these are actually the shining jewels that we should be seeking to emulate Right, yeah, right, right. So I think you're dead on there Right, yeah, none of those tomes do everything. They all do something unique and If you play if you had your uh, if you had an internal meta that was just those books you would be Uh, uh a similar power level with each army being unique on the tabletop and and and providing a Challenge which is difficult for it to overcome as opposed to sometimes where you get like, okay Well, it just it just does everything in in one book. Um, and it obsoletes all the other tomes. So No, but I love I love the beast of chaos. I hear what you're saying about the about the monsters though It's hard to disagree with you Yeah, the other the other thing I'll point out by the way The one thing I think the beast tome actually did absolutely correctly And there's kind of this movement against this right now that I think is wrong-headed Is beast of chaos had sub factions Right in dark walkers and all of her and stuff like that, but they felt so optional Yes, they felt like you didn't have to use them and now there's this move of everybody's complaining like Why don't gits have sub faction and all this stuff and escaping on a sub factions? I don't want every book to have sub factions or be forced into sub factions. Yes, I don't like that I don't like that being a necessity I hate that being a necessity I want to be able to build my own versions of these things where I get to actually use the command traits And the artifacts and not feel like I'm railroaded into the sub factions Can can I can I defend gits though? The problem the reason why gits want that is because they don't actually have Any allegiance rules gits has different. Yeah, I understand that gits has a different set of problems My point is there is a set of problems with gits. It's not a lack of sub factions Okay, and by the by if you don't have sub the sub factions layer of free rules What we've seen is that the opportunity cost is often not enough of what you're paying off right so like if if As the more we go down this sub faction road the more we invite unbalanced battle tomes because you're layering on more stuff There's been a project that we've been discussing in a in like a chat And it's the sort of hundred point project which I think is going to be coming to radio free hammer haul at some time soon So, uh, which paul has been working on and when you look at like what is worth a what a hundred points is worth What you see is that actually scroll wise.  We don't have access to any of those synergies So we're just the sucky hundred point unit Yeah, right So at any rate neither here nor there But I agree with you. Beasts of cash should have been the template going forward So There we are Okay But that brings us to 2019 All right 2019 So I've just brought up this whole image on the screen 2019 12 months 12 tomes Gits Flesh eater courts Skaven Corn Fireslayers Heedonites Sylvaneth Warclans Cities Bone reapers Maw tribes Slaves to darkness And there is a if I just read all those out Some of those probably you went You like flexed a little and you didn't know why it was like somebody somebody like somebody walked across your grave You know pricked you with a little tiny pin And those pins were flesh eater courts Skaven Uh, you know and and probably slanesh Slanesh, yeah, right Uh, I was definitely slanesh. By the way. Sorry. That wasn't I wasn't meaning to minimize them I was just thinking about the original fire slayers. Yeah, I don't think was probably fire slayers Yeah, I was depending on your meta and then also slanesh. Yes, that's pretty extreme reaction to obi art as well Yeah Yeah Whereas like a lot of these tomes you looked at and you went super fun tomes when gits came out I was pretty excited. I agree the allegiance abilities are kind of not great because of the nature of the moon Fine, whatever it gets has its problems Corn was largely fine. I thought the new corn book is fine Sylvaneth we can talk about again I think Sylvaneth is only bad in light of two things We we did a fixing Sylvaneth show if you want to see my how to fix Sylvaneth We did a whole show on it a couple weeks back could go watch it I think we had the best ideas ever including phoenix a laurel Which I think is the actual solution for a laurel phoenix a laurel is the best idea we've ever had on this show I don't even think we had it. I think somebody said in the comments afterward I don't remember the point is phoenix a laurel rules Uh, so but war clans cities mottribes slaves. These are great books great ones. Okay Now doom this is kind of a period where I think you got some frustration, right? Like because everybody gets talking about this is where broken tomes hit a new height Especially when we had scaven and fec Slenash and fire slayers. These were some dark months, right? Where people were feeling a lot of npe in their games if these things were at their table and it was funny how bifurcated people's experiences became Right.  Yeah, you had a bad time for months If you didn't have an mpc player, who cared your life went on like normal, right? And it didn't even you didn't even register Yeah, well at this point I was still rocking tournaments with my uh gut busters, you know from the the ghp Still as deadly as ever But the the the the thing I want to say is that if you bring up that image that you just had up There's 15 battle tomes listed there, right? Uh, yes, that's including there are 15 total because it's including everything since aos 2.0 into 2019 Yes, yeah, and I'm just going to jump ahead, but if you look at those 15 Five of them are almost completely busted and five of them came out. So you've got 10. Okay, no problems Five completely busted one scaven feck fires layers, blah, blah slanesh, you know, blah, blah, blah And I and and this is what what drove me insane Is that that is too high a strike rate for Unbalanced books, right? It's it's way out. That's way out. That's a ridiculously high proportion of books which uh Not and you know balance whatever you can say whatever about it, but that have an npe. Let's say that way or um, And and I felt that Surely the people that are writing these at this point have enough experience with the actual game to recognize How these rules will be Will translate across on the tabletop and that was my big frustration Because I always felt are these people playing the same game that I'm playing Because when all of this came out, we were like, well, what the hell is going on here? Remember the gristle gore conversations we were having in the chat and relian was just straight up like bam, you know Like you know that this was going to be horrible and um, and it really it really got to me And then and then so that was building up in the ghb 2019 hit and I was just like, oh, that's it I'm gonna flip the table, you know, right, right because in the middle of all this We get as we mentioned earlier an incredibly underwhelming generals handbook. Yes, it had great scenarios We all agree with that that was a great read like they did a good job Of of with all the battle plans. No disagreement there. Okay But everything else in that book was so throw away Right and then the match play section is what I mean like all the allegiance abilities were junk junky reprints that did nothing Right. Nothing was fixed as far as what we actually wanted fixed Right because I mean at this point in the meta you had scaven fec Fire slayers and slayers Yeah, four of five busted bugs and it may be did nothing Yeah, and it seemed like you're right because there's only 12 battle tomes at this point Um, because the next generation was war clans and and cities and so forth and what we ended up with is um Like night and day because we have beasts of chaos and then we have fire slays and you're like, how do we compare these? You know, we've got gleamspite kits and we've got slain ash and of course this all led to the um The idea of different rules writers writing different books and producing different power levels. That was the that was the general sort of trend that that train of thought that came out of this period and Whether that's correct or incorrect. I mean, there's always there's probably a bit of partial truth in it and a lot of Hollow blue, but um, that's certainly the feeling that evolved out of this period. Yeah Yeah, I agree. I I think that and look I was a well-known Uh Wrong-headed defender of slain ash for a long time. Okay Okay, it was it was but look I was blinded by my own bias I'm willing to admit that when you love something as much as I do It's hard to see its flaws. That's we've we've all had something. We love that much, right? But after time I came to see just how insane I was Because as I was playing game after game and watching what was happening to my opponents. I was like, oh, yeah, this is terrible Right. Nobody's enjoying this Uh And and let me I'm just gonna go about and say and I was a defender of fire slayers Um From the standpoint of like they're not broken in the midst of that meta Sure. Well, that's the problem is that one sin would justify another Right. Yeah, yeah, because and this was the discussion It would be like I'm gonna put this image down so we can all see ourselves and talk but That would the problem with it is one sin would be get another Right. Yeah, where you would say, oh, well, this isn't that broken when you compare two blah Right in a world where fec can do this. This is fine Right, right. That's just the command points for my first strike. That was of course completely the wrong-headed opinion Right. That's like, well, you know Tom just murdered somebody. So it's okay. If I just stab somebody and rob them. That's not as bad It's not murder Like no, no, those are both wrong Yeah There's also such a heavy introduction of always strikes first at this point and always strikes last like this was this was really the full introduction to the activation wars and um I think to an extent that has all settled down and we've come to accept it for what it is and And can play with it now But at that point with the disparity between the battle tomes and the introduction of this new mechanic That left just other armies completely for dead if you didn't have it, right. It was yeah. Oh my god. It was frustrating Yeah, I think that summer right was really like last last summer 2019 summer Yeah, it was really the rough time because when it was when we were full on in the midst of the activation wars We had a bad ghp come out. We had four unbalanced armies just running slip shot Right, and and it was just that was a a sudden and unexpected very dark time Yeah, and but the army the army I loved was still just as deadly as ever, you know, and you're like Kidding me. Yeah, that was the birth of that of that meme. Yes that time Exactly big big shout out to hey woe for making that video because um, he's the hero we all need He is in fact always the hero we need. Yes Uh, and and I think what we saw is by the end of 2019 A lot of this has now been corrected not all but we got new problems introduced Which we can talk about here as we as we close out, right because that'll bring us into current time no doms Like yeah, we have new things the spell doms. Yes, we'll talk about that in a second But you know slanesh got largely corrected It was it took a while, but it did get fixed and I actually like playing slanesh again now It feels probably more like it should have felt originally Uh, it's it is a very beatable army now. In fact in the current meta. It's almost dead on arrival as a matter of fact But that's not a justification. That's just going back to that same thing. We just said Right. My point is that it it it's changes Alone not worrying about the current meta feel like it actually is much more fair You fail a lot of locuses your summoning is much more expensive The units you're playing with are very fragile. It feels good It's actually a fun army to play and I think hopefully it's a better army to play against now It still plays in some unfun spaces when somebody does get that turn where they nail three locuses Because they roll like two fives and and they get the three up on their on their keeper or something Yeah, and that turn sucks Because you they basically they basically rolled themselves into an eyed net turn Turn three like high tide, but that's not the that's not the that's not the average experience Yeah, I think all of these armies that were problematic perhaps with the exception of fire slayers because they're able to slide under the radar was um have been brought back to a A point where they're still powerful But they have very bad matchups now in very bad counters and the rules were toned down to a point where they can no Longer deal with those would make bad matchups. So um Can I can I jump in real quick too? Yeah, the problem with fire slayers um Wasn't at this point Okay, it was when they got their points adjustment in december Yeah, so later in the middle of this crazy meta When they like the fix for for getting rid of the 30 blocks of of hearth guard was to draw them down to 20 with a A discount with a discount and when that change dropped I remember in I was in the once app chat and I made a comment. I was like, wow I love this change and ben johnson was like, I don't know how to respond to this like I like This is like this is clearly not a good thing if tom is okay and happy about this change And in fact like I think that it you know with retrospective like it's a problem Like the horde to the 480 horde discount of hearth guard preserve versus a problem But there's more fundamental problems with that army And so by doing that you're just going to bump them down off of like top tier contention Um down to the just because like they just don't have the depth of bench that a lot of armies do fire slayers And so like I just I think there's just not a good solution for them right now Like there's just not um because yeah, you can rewrite scrolls. I mean, that's what needs to happen Yeah, I mean They're a little bit scenario dependent. That's the thing that keeps them back in some tournaments But if the if the um player pack stacks up in the scenario stack up for them, they're uh, they're a hot favorite all day long But um, we only have three hero units Yeah, but everything else is zero. It's just half guard berserkers is is is what it's about right But so but if you look at that that run of 12 battle tomes, we're discussing They're probably the only one which hasn't been um Probably addressed and they're not as prolific in the meta as well So they don't present as as much of a problem And so, you know, it's it's a world of difference five out of 12 as opposed to one out of 12 Problem arms. So, you know, we're in such a better place now. Um, then what we were at that point I I personally feel I agree I think when we got to the end of 2019 what we saw was the rise of the true fat middle like we lived In the place we wanted to live Right when you looked at like when I was over there with you for kan kan in january, which feels by the way doom Like that was 72 years ago Yeah, then I was over visiting you I can't even imagine how far away that seems now. Well, which we've been through the apocalypse since then. So wow But uh, which was a great time by the way as a shout out if you ever get the chance to go to kan kan You should go. Uh, I'll be back assuming that I'm allowed to travel from the states and don't have to Sit somewhere in a hotel room by myself for 14 days. I'll be back whenever I can uh So either 2020 or 2021 for sure And doom was amazing and thank you buddy for for Being so awesome and and uh being a friend at kan kan. It was great Uh, so the that when I looked around at that hall what I saw was a lot of great games going on Right that all felt relatively like yeah, everything was pretty good The only thing that was kind of a little bit of a canary in the coal mine at that time was zinch Right zinch hadn't gotten its changes. The book had just come out things were clearly a little out of whack and but beyond that Things felt pretty good. We felt like we had a nice fat middle of a game Things were where they should be All we needed to do was fix each I certainly felt pretty good until I got introduced to the true reality of marauders And a demon prince with a sort of judgment rolling three sixes two turns in a row and just taking stone horns off left right and center Are you kidding me?  Anyways, it was great. Yeah, it was really really great I remember walking up at the beginning of that game doom and seeing you and you were like I asked you to be a fun game and then I came back just like a little while later and you had nothing left enough what happened And just before it kicked off I was like ha ha I've lured him into my trap. This is gonna go perfectly He's about to make a mistake. Nope. It was me that made the mistake Anyways, yeah Uh, so that brings us into the modern day and now we really don't know where we are because obviously 2020 has been The year of being on pause Right, uh as very quickly after that, you know, we got tomes For a little while like we got more things introduced But everything shut down Right, so we got our new kradron overlords tome. We got the new seraphon tome But then everything came to a halt and now we're just Starting to get back to it really with the release of you know, the lumeneth sort of Sort of we'll talk about lumeneth next week. By the way, everybody next week will be the lumeneth show Yeah, it's interesting because I think that I think that it would have been really interesting like I think it would have been a coin flip between like zeech And fire slayers or obr At adepticon for example in march, but we'll never know or in seraphon seraphon in there as well But we'll just never know and so a lot of that stuff And so like things are going to get reshuffled next week Or when the when the new ghp drops I I was initially critical of ko and I still am But what I will say is that like They're going to be competitive although like I don't know that they fix the mpe problem Well, I think shooting always just has it like we can we can do we'll do a whole show sometime on what mpe even means But yeah, by the way negative play experience for for those not Who because we're acronyming like crazy and not explaining it so like feel bad feel bad game experience Yeah, uh, yeah Well soren said it would be a sin not to talk about the rise of tabletop simulator Sure, I mean here in lockdown when everybody was stuck in their homes We have seen a lot of tabletop simulator games and that's been our best source of knowledge Right as to what's off kilter Um, it's it has been interesting to watch how fast tabletop simulator became a thing that everybody suddenly was playing in and utilizing Uh, but to me, I haven't played a single game on tabletop simulator because I have no desire to play on a digital space for me this game is Models and being with your friends in person and playing the game. That's why I play it It's why I went up for three days to vince's house and played tix games over three days. Exactly. Yeah Yeah, I mean that's that's what we're here for Now that's not and by the way again not yucking your yam if you're enjoying tts and having a good time I think that's fantastic. I'm super glad that we live in an age where that's an option I'm just saying it's not for me Uh, I think what we're entering now and doom. I'll be interested to get your take on this So we've we've come to the new term Depending on what happens in the ghp. I think we're entering the age of the spell doms Okay, so we're using doms doms like doms and subs Don't google that if you don't know what I mean by it if you do Good You're welcome world vince came up with bone daddies And uh, and we were looking for a term and you know It's spell doms. It's spell doms when you look at teclis croak Uh, the uh nagash Yeah, in in petrogash or whatever Uh, when you look at arguably still zinch and the capabilities of those things, right Where you have now a So it's what you said before doom when it's one army out of x It's not as much of a thing when it's Four or five armies that can produce like overwhelmingly powerful magic That just makes your like why take a so so you you're playing ogres. I would do the same thing with my iron jaws I'll tell you right now the world. I think we're going into There's no world where I take like a spellcaster in my in my iron jaws army I wouldn't even bother. It's irrelevant Um, so if I'm playing um, uh, if I'm playing the stone horn heavy, um more tribes There are certain when you're list building you can certainly build a wizard in to get that to spell and things like that But it's wasted points. I don't even bother Even if I take the strongest casting faction within ogres, which is you know blood gullet where I get double casts off my wizards and so forth The spells go off on a seven. I've got no bonuses and everyone else has already added a bonus to the spell So there's no point investing in that much at the moment either. So Auto dispelling some of the table wide dispelling Yep So first after you get my spell off and then if I and and that's hard enough And then I've got the dispel and then they've got the bonuses to the spell as well So you better off just put the points straight into into more stone horns Overloading on that one phase. They're going to overload on magic. You can't um You you can't I was just sorry. I got a phone call. Yeah, you you can't build enough into your list to counter that in any way So just go the opposite way and uh and no wizards at all and I think that's where we're going to be We're going to be have five armies that are just dominating magic when they play against each other It might be an interesting interaction or where they come up against corn for example, but um Apart from that, we're just going to see everyone drop wizards and uh and go ham but one one thing I just wanted to say about this because I I watched your um Uh video you made with romp on his channel and talking about where we're going to what the meta's going to look like when we come out of this um This covid situation and we have you know lumen earth and seraphon and negash and all these all these sort of guys stomping around Um, and I and I sort of feel like if we go back to the conversation we just had about last year with feck and um and scaven and so forth where it was So bad right because there was so much sort of but but moving forward six months everything's okay And so and so I think we just need to um and and I would like it to not be this case But I think sometimes nowadays we need to Just take our foot off the pedal a little bit with this game and think to ourselves right At the moment spell doms is going to be crazy and i'm not sure where it's going to be but in six months I probably go to one tournament And then everything is fixed by the next one right and so and so i'm sort of thinking to myself I think we might have this the the covid's got to be dealt with everyone's going to be back to gaming. We're going to have this This this terrible situation where there are some really dominant magic heavy armies again that are pushing the fat middle down Um ruining their you know just just npe for them But then I think in in a shorter period of time In the scheme of the game it is going to get fixed and addressed some way and um And I think we'll then be back to a situation where now we've got 30 battle tomes that are playable and and The point being that when you have that many different options Um, you're not always just getting dominated by serif on you're not always just getting dominated by teclas and um and so I think I think it's going to be okay. Like I I'm not I'm not too concerned about where the future is to be honest with you Um, as long as I can keep having fun with monsters Like let me push back on that and say that I'm not as hopeful um And just simply from the standpoint of now I get to be I get to be the negative boys. Um simply because Um, I think that the what made so much of the last season Like unfortunate like of those four of the five books. We were the age of like asf Always or strikes last Yeah, the activation wars the activation wars and we're at the And like the heat of it and a lot a lot of things around the edges have been like chipped at To weaken the activation wars. Yeah And now the problem is is that we are going to be in the heart of the magic insanity Yep, and there's no clear future Of like chipping away at that Like there's no obvious way to move beyond it. I think ko have some plays against them Um, you know, I think that um, there are like there are anti spell builds in the meta I don't know that they're going to be able to pull enough weight to to you know to podium them What it it it is critical as to the type of magic dominance that we're seeing so with croak with his high mortal wound AOE for example Now when zench was back at its prime and they were putting out anywhere from 20 to 30 mortal wounds per turn in their hero phase, right? and Like that was a devastating amount of mortal wounds And if you were anything like storm cast eternals with an elite army low model count low wounds You would just absolutely toast but I could run gut busters Right units of 12 ogre bulls just up onto the objectives against prime zench And say come and get me off and with the exception of skyfires But if it was a magic heavy build, you know, they could do three turns of 30 mortal wounds And I've still got 100 wounds left and I'm up in points and I've won already and so so sometimes If the magic dominance is say mortal wound focused only You can go okay. Well, there is an innate Counter to this by just adding more wounds just absorbing their hero phase with with bodies for example On the flip side if it's all just debuffs where it just stops you doing anything Can you get that a little bit in slaves? But I don't think we've seen it play out to the full extent where it's like you can't do anything You can't do anything you can't do anything, you know, that's that's a different challenge all together that they don't have Lumineff like Lumineff have a double like every command ability costs double command points Like that's that's tha