Good morning, please join me in a moment of centering silence. Let's sing The hymn this morning is in your hymnal. It's number 396 Welcome to the first unissary in society of Madison This is a place where curious seekers gather to explore spiritual ethical and social issues in a safe and accepting environment Unitarian universalism supports the freedom of conscience of each individual as together We seek to be a force for good in the world. I'm Maureen friend and on behalf of the congregation I'd like to extend a special welcome to visitors We are a welcoming congregation. So wherever you are, we celebrate your presence among us Newcomers are encouraged to stay for our fellowship hour after the service and to visit the library Which is directly across from the center doors in this auditorium Bring your drinks and your questions members of our staff and lay ministry will be on hand to welcome you This would be a great time to turn off your electronics Anything that might disrupt the service Experience guides are generally available to give a building tour after each service So if you'd like to learn more about the sustainably designed auditorium Which is an addition and our national landmark meeting house Please meet near the large glass windows on the left side of the auditorium We welcome children to stay with us during the service Please remember it's often becomes difficult for those in attendance to hear in this lively acoustical environment and our child Haven which is behind you and the commons are Excellent places to go when you or your child needs to talk and move around The service can still be seen and heard from both areas and now I'd like to acknowledge those individuals who help our services run smoothly To this morning your greeter was Corinne Perrin The ushers were Patrick Disharm and Ostrom and Marty Hollis Our lay minister is Tom Boykhoff The sound operator is David Brails Please note the announcements on the red floors insert in your order of service Which describe upcoming events at the society and provide more information about today's activities Again welcome We hope that today's service will stimulate your mind touch your heart and stir your spirit Out at spikes of the orange crepes skirts of poppies lifting over buttercup and daisy abundance There is nothing to compare No need for beauty to compete The voluptuous rhododendron and the plain grass are equally filled with themselves Equally declare the miracles of color and form This is what community looks like this vibrant jostle Stem by stem declaring the marvelous joining This is the face of communion The incarnation once more gracefully resurrected from winter Hold these things together in your sight Purple crimson magenta blue You will be feasting on these Long after the flowers are gone And if you will rise now in body or spirit to join together in our chalice lighting The words are printed in your order of service in the mystery of life about us. There is light It gives us a place to be to grow to rejoice together It opens the pathways to love In this place of friendship there is freedom Let the light we kindle go before us strong in hope wide in goodwill Inviting the days to come and before we join together in song if you'll take a moment to turn and greet your neighbor The words of Norbert Chopek of life We ask thy blessing on these messengers of fellowship and love May they remind us a mid-diversities of knowledge and gifts To be one in desire and affection and devotion to good and beauty May they also remind us of the need for sharing and cooperation in our common quest for understanding May we cherish friendship and community as one of life's most precious gifts May we not let awareness of another's talents discourage or separate us May we realize that the efforts of all of us the goodwill of all of us are Needed to heal and transform this troubled world May we be strengthened by the knowledge that one spirit the spirit of love unites us and May we endeavor together for a more joyful life for all Amen, and now if anyone would like to come forward, okay Hi Whoo, you got there before I did that's impressive All right, we Give me a minute while I make myself a seed or I'm gonna sit on the carpet with you and then Lord knows I won't be getting up again Here we go. That'll work. Hi. Did you see that in the order of service? Good. Good. You could help me Uh-huh Way to you see Finney Finn just room up here to come up, right? So what we're hearing is the story of the three little and the big bad Wolf, but you know what we're gonna do today. We're gonna do the opposite We're gonna do the three is that too crazy to work or you think we can do it You think we let's do it.  No, no, that's just the cover. All right Once upon a time there were three cuddly little wolves with soft fur and fluffy tails who lived with their mother The first was black.  Of course they did right?  Certainly said the kangaroo and she gave them lots of red and yellow bricks So the three little wolves built themselves a house of bricks The very next day The big bad pig Came prowling down the road and saw the house of bricks that the little wolves had built The three little wolves were playing croquet in the garden You will notice throughout that these are very civilized wolves When they saw the big bad pig coming they ran inside the house and locked the door The pig knocked on the door and grunted little wolf little wolves. Let me come in No, no, no said the three little wolves not by the hair on our chinny chin chins We will not let you in not for all the tea leaves in our china teapot.  What do you think happened? Nothing, it's brick, right?  They said just then they saw a beaver who was mixing concrete in a concrete mixer Lee of course, right? Why not? Please they said to the beaver. Will you give us some of your concrete?  Let me come in Oh said the little wolves not by the hair on our chinny chin chins We will not let you in not for all the tea leaves in our china teapot Then I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow your house down So we huffed any puffed any huffed any puffed what happens when you huff and puff on concrete This is concrete right here. Anybody want to huff and puff? What it dries, right? Maybe he dried their house a little bit more But do you think it fell down? No, but the pig wasn't called Big and bad for nothing He went and fetched his pneumatic drill and smashed the house down The three little wolves managed to escape, but their chinny chin chins were trembling and trembling and trembling All right, I forgot to make a disclaimer. This story is just nuts by the way Okay, and you know you may think it's highly inappropriate for church, but we'll get there We shall build an even stronger house they said because they were very determined Just then they saw a truck coming along the road carrying barbed wire iron bars armor plates and heavy metal padlocks Give us some of your barbed wire a few iron bars and armor plates and some heavy metal padlocks They said to the rhinoceros who was driving the truck Sure said the rhinoceros and he gave them plenty of barbed wire iron bars armor plates and heavy metal padlocks He also gave them some plexiglass and some reinforced steel chains Because he was a generous and kind-hearted rhinoceros So the three little wolves built themselves an extremely strong house It was the strongest Securist house one could possibly imagine they felt absolutely safe The next day the big bad pig came prowling along the road as usual The three little wolves were playing hopscotch in the garden When they saw the big bad pig coming they ran inside their house bolted the door and locked all 37 padlocks The pig dialed the video phone and said Little frightened wolves with the trembling chins. Let me come in No, no, no said the wolves not by the hair on our chinny chin chins We will not let you in not for all the tea leaves in our china teapot Then I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow your house down said the pig He can't do it.  How could a pig have well? How could a kangaroo have bricks and a rhinoceros have armor plates? I mean the whole thing is just a little on the cuckoo side Hang with me though How does a beaver have all that concrete you guys are totally right on the three little wolves just managed to escape with their Fluffy tails scorched Something must be wrong with our building materials. They said we have to try something different At that moment bear with me. They saw a flamingo coming along pushing a wheelbarrow full of Flowers What I know I'm telling you They sure are please will you give us some flowers? Finn I told you the stories on the nutty side will you give us some flowers asked the little wolves Uh-huh. They are they are way less strong than concrete. Let's see what happens With pleasure said the flamingo and he gave them lots of flowers So they built themselves a house of flowers one wall was marigolds one was daffodils one pink roses one Cherry blossoms the ceiling was made of sunflowers and the floor was a carpet of daisies They had water lilies in their bathtub and buttercups in their refrigerator It was a rather fragile house and it swayed in the wind, but it was very beautiful Next day the big bad pig came prowling down the road and saw the house of flowers that the three little wolves had built He rang the blue bell at the door and said Little frightened wolves with the trembling chins and the scorched tails let me in No, no, no said the three little wolves not by the hair on our chinny chin chins We will not let you in not for all the tea leaves in our china teapot Then I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow your house down Now what would happen if he huffed and puffed at the flower house? What what do you think's gonna happen? It's gonna go right down isn't it as he took Right, he doesn't need dynamite for this one does he as he took a deep breath ready to huff and puff He smelled the soft scent of the flowers it was fantastic and Because the scent was so lovely the pig took another breath and then another instead of huffing and puffing he began to sniff He sniffed deeper and deeper until he was quite filled with the fragrant scent his heart grew tender and he realized Just how mean he had been Right then in there he decided to become a big Good pig and he started to sing and to dance The Tarantella as pigs do when they have a change of heart at first The three little wolves were a bit worried it might be a trick But soon they realized that the pig had truly changed so they came running out of the house They started playing games with him first They played pigpaw and piggy in the middle and when they were all tired they invited him into the house They offered him tea and strawberries and wolf berries and asked him to stay with them as long as he wanted The pig accepted and they all lived Happily ever after All right, you know what we're gonna stick together right here As our kids choir sings and I want to say that this is the Last time that they'll be singing for us for this This year just like it's the last time you have classes today And we are really really grateful that they come to rehearsals on wednesdays And they show up here really early on weekends and they stretch and they yawn rose. That's what we do And so when they are done singing if you will join me in giving them a big round of applause As our way of saying thank you for all the good work they do Published in the reflects on the question. Can you use talk about evil actual value closely related to open mindedness? But deeper and harder to practice is spiritual humility In the aftermath of the holocaust and world war two In response to liberal religions inflated estimation of human nature rinholds neber a progressive christian theologian Argued that the problem with people is the tension between our creature lee and divine sides We are animals he said, but we are also conscious and spiritual The problem he argued is that we consistently overestimate ourselves This leads us to harm one another and to create support or not resist systems of oppression If we are spiritually humble We can call out evil without pretending we don't have to be on guard for it within ourselves This is where religious liberalism Even though it has underestimated humankind's capacity for evil in the past Has something important to say We are called to balance the naming of evil in the world with the need to be humble and on guard for it Not as the dangerous other that would try to trick us But mingled right here with the best of ourselves And we must call it when we see it If we are in touch with reality, we must be willing to use the word evil We need the word to describe parts of the human experience Out of respect for the people who are harmed And also because only after we name it can we ask the next question Where is god or grace in this? And then if we listen we'll hear the answer Because it's implicit in the next question What can we do? And I invite you now to rise in body or spirit for our next hymn Which is number one in our hymnal The creation of the flower communion that we celebrate today Norbert and Maya Chopec, Unitarian ministers in Prague First celebrated this ritual with their congregation on June 24th 1923 Chopec's goal was to create a form of communion that was relevant to his people and their experience He knew that many carried baggage with traditional forms as he himself did He opted to bring together two foundational principles of his ministry Love for god's creation and what it offers to our spirits and the power of community He asked that everyone bring a flower These were collected at the door by the children of the congregation They were brought ceremoniously to the altar where they were blessed using the words that we used a little while ago Then in a special ritual each member of the congregation was invited to solemnly approach the altar Take a flower other than the one they themselves had brought It was in this way by seeing the bright and beautiful arrangement made by the collecting of the flowers And the gift of beauty in receiving a flower that the power of community was brought forward Community is created Chopec said by the gifts each person brings to the table And we are each sustained by what we receive from one another It was a tremendous success And when Maya Chopec came to the United States to tour and speak in 1939 She brought the flower ceremony with her She would not return to Prague until after the war Now in 1939 Hitler's armies began their occupation of Czechoslovakia In 1940 the Gestapo began monitoring the services at Chopec's church Not long before his 70th birthday The American Unitarian Association and its president Frederick May Elliott offered Chopec and an associate passage and an assurance of work in the ministry here This promise of support would allow Chopec and his associate to return safely to the United States They refused preferring to stay with their parishioners and the church Chopec founded So that he could concentrate his efforts on encouraging them in the troubling times When would his people need him more? On March 28th 1941 Chopec and his youngest daughter Zora were arrested Zora was arrested for listening to foreign broadcasts a serious offense Chopec was charged with the same but also with high treason With several of his recent sermons quoted as evidence Before his death in 1942 at Dekau Dr. Chopec's courage in the face of torture and starvation was a source of inspiration to his fellow prisoners While in the camp he led the prisoners in worship Using the flower communion ceremony as the ritual Each prisoner brought what flowers they could find in the camp to a service And at the end they took with them a different flower than the one they had brought To symbolize their sense of community Fortified by his words they held together despite the grim rigors of the camp After the war survivors testified that that humble Unitarian minister Could not have been sent to a place where he was more needed As I reflect on the life of Norbert Chopec I wonder what he would have thought of the hymn that we sang just moments ago There are many images that I adore in this hymn By faith made strong the rafters will withstand the battering of the storm This hearth though all the world grow chill Will keep you warm I love the idea that our faith our belief in the goodness of life The goodness of one another the belief that we can work together to create peace and justice That this faith keeps our community together Keeps us coming back here time and again And together we face the evils and the wrongs of the world And we hold tight to the hope that it and we Can change It's the last line of the hymn that has always troubled me and I wonder if it troubled you as well With laughter drawn the raucous shout And though these sheltering walls are thin May they be strong to keep hate out And hold love in Norbert Chopec knew that he couldn't He wouldn't and he didn't keep hate out and he most certainly did not live a life That held love in May nothing evil cross this door Evil is not a concept that we bring up often in our congregations Years ago. I led a discussion group on the topic of evil and I have to tell you it was a tough night We realized at some point that we couldn't come up with a working definition for the word that we would all agree on We weren't ready or able to name anything or anyone as evil And we were incredibly reluctant to consider using that word on ourselves or any of our own actions At one point someone said well, this was good in theory But honestly I come here because you don't make me think about it The daughter of the great unitarian religious educator, so phialion faz once criticized her own religious education For failing to address the reality of evil for wanting to keep hate out even out of our discussions We spent 95 of our time studying good people doing good things And we skipped very lightly over the dreadful parts of humanity. She said I was taught not to be judgmental not to observe or register the negative behavior of others Consequently, I grew up uninformed about destructive human behavior I was incompetent to observe it accurately And I was very unskilled in how to respond to it and ashamed to even talk about it She wasn't the only one who questioned our liberal theology's ability to deal with the more unpleasant side of human nature Rosemary Bray McNat current president of our star king school for the ministry Tells the story of when she met Coretta Scott King Rosemary was being considered to co-write Coretta Scott King's autobiography And she met with her in her editor's office During an hour of wide-ranging conversation Rosemary mentioned that she was in seminary to become a unitarian universalist minister King gave her a look of respect And of delight Oh, I went to unitarian churches for years even before I met Martin. She said Explaining that she had been since college a member of the women's international league for peace and freedom Which was very popular among unitarians and universalists And Martin and I went to unitarian churches every time we were in boston What surprised and saddened rosemary was what came next The gist of it was something like We gave a lot of thought to becoming unitarian at one time But Martin and I realized we could never build a mass movement of people if we were unitarian Rosemary shares that this statement pierced her heart and troubled her mind then and now It caused her to question her own faith and what this faith might have been like if Dr. King decided to cast his lot with ours Though from the very start of his theological training, he revealed a decided bent toward liberal religion By the time his faith had been tried by the civil rights movement King had said no to the sunny optimism of liberal faith An optimism frankly untested in the heat of the battle For liberty and dignity for all people In his famous essay pilgrimage to non-violence published in 1960 he wrote There is one phase of liberalism that I hope I will cherish always And that is it's a devotion to the search for truth And it's refusal to abandon the best light of reason It was the liberal doctrine that I began to question The more I observed the tragedies of history and our shameful inclination to choose the low road The more I came to see the depths of evil and the strength of sin I came to feel that liberalism had been all too sentimental concerning human nature and it leaned toward a false idealism I came to see that this superficial optimism concerning human nature Caused it to overlook the fact that human nature and reason are darkened by evil Now a lot has happened in our communities and in our world since king wrote those words And I believe that if he visited today He might find a shift in our awareness and acknowledgement of the harsh realities And he may find that our sunny optimism has dimmed just a bit Whereas 50 plus years ago it was commonly believed that evil and sin were very Ununitarian concepts Today the world looks different Our children are being raised in a world of Columbine and Newtown A post-September 11th world and we can no longer teach them To turn away and ignore the destructive sides of human nature We have lost some of our innocence, but I do not believe that we have given up our hope We liberal religious people who believe in the inherent goodness the worth and dignity of each and every person Have to grapple again and again with the realities of this life May nothing evil cross this door In our world today no matter how hard we may try Evil does indeed cross our doors We know it is present in our world We know it when we encounter it because it contradicts everything we love about humanity And what is our response? I find wisdom in our somewhat ridiculous story today of the three little wolves and the big bad pig What was the first way the wolves tried to keep the danger away? Build walls strong sturdy walls of brick and concrete and barbed wire and armor plates But did it keep the danger out? No The wolves learned as we have learned that you can't keep the dangers out You can't keep the hate out no matter how hard you may try When we build those strong walls to keep others out, they are often walls made of fear alienation Mistrust doubt and dread and we know they don't work These are not the walls we want to surround our community The wolves built a house of flowers A permeable house a house of beauty that allowed the breezes and the bees and could have been easily destroyed Yet when they met their danger the big bad pig With that openness that willingness to trust and risk they were all transformed I know that this story is far too simplistic for our real world problems Houses of flowers are not going to lead to happily ever afters and maybe there is no happily ever after But I want to believe that we are the people who will try What is the alternative to building more thick walls of hate alienation Polarization and fear Martin Luther King once said that hatred and bitterness can never cure the disease of fear Only love can do that The alternative is digging deep Finding our original wholeness, which is kindness and living from that place of openness Opening our minds, our lives and our hearts toward one another My colleague that many of you know and love, Mary Ann Macklin, says that Unitarian universalism is a blessing to this world because it demands hope It saves lives and it has the audacity to care Here in this Unitarian universalist community, we know we cannot keep hate out And we will not hold our love in We will be the people who meet the hate with love We stand on the side of love. We are the love people In 2008 when a man walked into the Tennessee Valley UU congregation and opened fire because those liberals were ruining our country UUA President Bill Sinkford said these words Inspired by the UUs of Knoxville, Tennessee We are rededicating ourselves to the mission of this faith Which is to welcome the stranger To love our neighbor To work for justice To nurture the spirits of all who seek a religious home And to help heal this wounded world We will not give in to fear We will meet hatred with love We will continue to work for justice Our hearts and our doors are open Unitarian universalists today and always Stand on the side of love Today as we celebrate another flower communion Created by a man who stood on the side of justice and love Who faced his fear with opening his heart to those around him and bringing comfort and hope until his final days We remember that our Unitarian universalist faith tells us that the face of evil is the face of alienation Of separation of us and them And them And our faith tells us that the only response in the face of evil and hate is to look deep within Connect with the best in each of us Opening the door of compassion and remembering our place in the common family Or as Norbert Chopek would have told us May we realize that the efforts of all of us the goodwill of all of us Are needed to heal and transform our troubled world The message is clear over and over and sometimes against great odds We are part of a love that compels us to create peace seek truth Unite with those who look and sound like us and those who don't Heal creation Hold one another in compassion Demand hope Save lives and have the audacity to care Today and always May our hearts be open May our arms be strong may our voices be clear as together we let our love out As far and as wide as it may go I now invite you into the giving and receiving of the morning's offering You will see in your order of service. It is dedicated in its entirety to our partner church program That program supports our 24 year relationship With a small village in rural transylvania in najoita and the unitarian parish there It also supports a unitarian universalist high school student in the philippines There is a table in the commons We will have someone there to answer your questions about that program and we thank you for your generosity Who have served us well for many years? Three of the staff members we're recognizing today have been with us for 10 years As I call each of your names if you're here, which I hope everybody is will you come up so I can recognize you Dan Dan Carnes is a member of our facility staff serving as weekend custodian In his role. He is a perpetual mover a master of transitions Moving tables chairs and other equipment to the appropriate location for the next f us event He cleans up after us. He troubleshoots for us. He sometimes films special events He helps with live streaming our services When needed and make sure the audio visual equipment is ready and working for services and special events Dan grew up in f us as the youngest son of harry Carnes and ann gollickson He loves to cook and hopes to become a chef or a filmmaker or both in the future Tom miskelly serves as dan supervisor. He comments about dan his comments about dan include the following The weekend custodians at f us are vitally important to The smooth functioning of the events that occur here The personal pride dan takes and his work is obvious every day Reliable completely dependable dan expertly works behind the scenes making all the logistics and technical stuff work Thanks, dan Janet swanson is next Janet taught Children's religious education classes for 10 years prior to taking over the summer fund program in 2005 Janet also participated in the first offering of quest Which is our two-year adult faith and development program In 2007 she was asked To join the quest planning group and was hired as the quest spiritual program director in 2008 Her current position is director of adult spiritual programs, which includes quest adult religious education and campus ministry In this position, she's responsible for developing Coordinating and facilitating adult programming for f us Kelly crocker serves as janets supervisor and has this to say about janet Janet is a great gift to our adult spiritual development programs She has a creative mind. It's able to bring new and vital programming to this community Programs that inspire that bring forth healing That cause us to question and to always want to learn just a bit more Her kindness permeates all her work and brings deep connections and strong relationships among our members Thank you. Janet Linda Warren Linda Warren joined the staff of f us's assistant music director in 2005 The latest position in a church music career that began when she was in college Along with playing hymns for f us worship services Linda accompanies the society choir the meeting house chorus and children's choirs She also works with other church music ensembles such as the chime choir the recorder quartet And the string band We are blessed whenever we get to hear her perform on the harp Dan Bronner is linda's supervisor and shared this information about linda Linda is a consummate professional She is always prepared always on time Linda brings a lifetime of experience to her work here at f us and is a great team player I'm honored to be her colleague. Thank you So the fourth staff person we're recognizing today has been us has been with us for the past 15 years 20 years Leslie Leslie knows how long she's been here So Leslie Ross serves as the director of religious education This position requires her to provide leadership coordination and program development for our children and youth from infants through high school Leslie recruits trains and supports our 100 plus volunteers And selects and develops curricula for the church school classes Each year she organizes our annual art in the right place fundraiser as well as our teen's habitat for humanity work trip Kelly crocker serves as leslie supervisor. She states that Leslie brings a passionate commitment to the spiritual guidance Of our children and infuses all of her work with dedication integrity and joy She's creative resourceful amazingly well organized and innovative Innovative right and brings this program to life year after year with her generous and compassionate spirit. Thank you Heather is the final person we're recognizing today Heather has been the children's and youth choir director at f us for the past 20 years The numbers in the three choirs have grown over the years with membership now approaching 80 young choristers Ranging in ages from four to 18 We're lucky to be enjoying their music on this flower communion weekend Heather also blesses us with her beautiful voice as a featured soloist during the year A parent of children who participated in the choirs Noted that heathers involvement as choir director children's choir director Added depth to their family's experience at the f us community Her non-judgmental teaching style welcomed singers of all abilities Creating confident young singers And these children and youth have a special intergenerational connection to the congregation as a result of their participation in f us services Another tells us Heather has invested her wednesday evenings for 20 years in the music education of our children and youth of f us She taught them not only music but focus pride professionalism in the community of choir For many she's become a mentor and over time a valued friend to the young adults of our congregation In closing on behalf of the f us personnel committee and all the members of staff of f us We thank dan janet Linda leslie and heather for their dedication Their commitment and their hard work on behalf of first unitarian society Now as we prepare to leave this place I invite you to take one of these flowers Take a different one than the flower you brought Take it not to keep forever and ever nothing is forever Take a flower as a symbol of gratitude for the beauty we did not create Of gratitude for blessings we do not deserve Of gratitude for joys which come unexpected Take a flower as a symbol of your participation in the community of this congregation The community of humankind Community of all living things the universal community If by chance you did not bring a flower take one anyway Take a flower as a symbol that beauty and grace and joy and love are not matters of reciprocity Our ushers will be bringing the vases of flowers Out to the commons and as you leave today, please take a flower from these bouquets We have created together Knowing that in this spirit we share in the long history of religious freedom And the power of our faith Remember that the flower you hold in your hand is the gift of a friend Brought in good faith to this community and a reminder Of the history we inherit as we walk the paths of our journey May these earthly symbols remind us of a deeper truth That in the days of our joys and in the days of our struggles we are never truly alone And if you will rise now in body or spirit for our closing hymn number 163 We are today ever thankful for the persistence of flowers and open ourselves to their long wisdom Often they grow in spite of terrible winters and miserable summers May we remember that strange beauty greets us in unexpected places As if there is a particular grace that is stronger than indifference When we tend our gardens with love and care the reward will be greater than the effort May the flowers ever speak to us of wonders and glories yet to be Of hopes fulfilled if we remember to tend our gardens and our homes With patience and wisdom and love Blessed be go in peace. Please be seated for the postlude


Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE at the HP Vertica Big Data Conference 2014. Brought to you by HP with your hosts, John Furrier and Dave Vellante. Hello everyone, welcome to theCUBE. We are here live in Boston, Massachusetts. This is theCUBE, our flagship program. We go out to the events, extract the suit and the noise. I'm John Furrier, I'm here with my co-host Dave Vellante and here with Jeff Kelly. I don't think it has a wiki bond. I'm excited to be at the HP Big Data Vertica End User Conference. Really it's a conference around the big data around Vertica and HP, HP software and really about the players in the industry. It's exciting to be here. This is year two, Dave, we are going here at HP Vertica and in Boston again, the summer. No summer blues going on for theCUBE here, Dave. Just a lot of more action, HP, again, really, really kind of conservative but still lighten it up out in the marketplace with Vertica. Yeah, I mean, yes and no conservative, right? So we have 1,000 people here this year, second conference, I thought last year was very, very well done. The thing that struck me last year, John, was just the number of customers, the number of customer stories, guys like Guess, Yammer, we got the US Postal Service here. A lot of customers willing to come on theCUBE and talk about how they're using data. So as I say, about 1,000 people here, we heard in the keynotes this morning, Meg Whippen got up in a video and gave kind of the obligatory, big data rocks kind of discussion and then Colin Mahoney, who's the general manager of Vertica gave a talk and he's always good. He always brings in new information. Everybody shows about how much data is growing. Well, he gave us some stats. He basically said in 1983 it cost about a dollar and you could store about 3.5 web logs and today you could store like 35 billion web logs for that same dollar and so he put forth a scenario of you basically want to log everything, figure out what happened, figure out what didn't happen and talk about essentially samples. Remember our friend, Abhi Metta, talks about sampling is dead. Colin talked about the sample size are essentially infinite now. So he sort of laid out that scenario. The other thing he did, I think he did a credible job of talking about how Vertica used to be essentially a one feature company, a one trick pony around column store. Remember when Vertica first came out, it was really all about columnar compression, doing it for less, doing it faster and then he sort of laid out, okay, now here we are today and I don't know, Jeff, where are we at now? Vertica 7. Vertica 7, that's correct. And so he showed the pieces of the puzzle which was a much, much more robust portfolio inside of Vertica and then of course they had Tyrek the rock star who's this kid who does Rubik's cubes in like literally 10, 15 seconds he can solve a Rubik's cube today. His trick was to do it with one hand. So interesting mix of good gimmicks, a little bit of fun and some good customer interaction. I want to bring it over to Jeff Kelly, Kelly Austin's analyst, the number one analyst in Big Data as far as I'm concerned. First, actually do a big data sizing, Dave, not to kind of pimp up his own report. But it was Jeff, looking back now, you did the first market sizing of Big Data. So I got to ask you first, is it bigger than we thought and how does that relate to what's going on in the marketplace today here at the Vertica show? Yeah, I'd say we did a pretty good job of forecasting the market. I'd say it's growing a little faster than we anticipated, which is not surprising considering that all the innovative uses of data that we're seeing out there from practitioners, from users who are coming up with new ways to gain value from their data. And we talked about back in that first forecast that we really thought the majority of value in the big data market was going to come from practitioners, people actually putting the technology to use versus the vendor. So we're seeing the revenue related to big data products and services certainly is growing a little bit faster than we thought, but I think the value that practitioners are creating from big data technology and services is increasing at least as fast as not faster than what we're seeing but that's a little different than some of the other folks out there were pumping up the big data apps as to the being the tsunami, but you pointed out who's going to come from the practitioner markets, meaning how it was being put to use. So let me ask you some questions around this show. And obviously the guest list is pretty significant that we have mostly customers here that talk about their story, which is phenomenal for us. We love that versus people just pumping up their own software. But be specific Jeff, what are you seeing specifically around the growth on the practitioners versus the hype that just never came home on the big data apps? Well, you know, so we're seeing, so on the one hand, you've got essentially greenfield opportunities where you've got either startups or companies that are really were born on the internet, born on the web, whose whole business is around data. We're seeing them use technologies and tools related to big data, Hadoop, Vertica, Tableau for visualization, other tools really to create totally new business models. So you're seeing, you know, company like Carlytics who we'll have on later in the show talking about how they actually help organizations, help merchants essentially, better target ads. Okay, makes a lot of sense. But you're also seeing more mainstream, more traditional organizations making use of big data. So we're gonna have one of the show, United States Postal Service. So, you know, you don't get much more traditional than that. So they're a big Vertica customer. They've got obviously a lot of challenges in this new environment where, you know, there's a lot of, you can connect with people through any number of means other than the Postal Service. So they've got to modernize. So we're seeing them use data in interesting ways to better compete in this marketplace. We're also seeing healthcare organization, Blue Cross, Blue Shield will be on during our broadcast. You know, obviously healthcare is a huge opportunity for big data analytics. There's data coming off the machines. There's all the wearable technology that people are now using Fitbits and trackers such as that. There's of course larger demographic data, social data coming off the web. So any number of use cases in healthcare as well. So it's both traditional organizations and of course the big data startups, those companies that were really born around data and the internet. So one of the things, Jeff, that you found in your survey, which was astounding to me, you had a question in there. Has your organization shifted any workloads from a traditional data warehouse like a TeraData or an Oracle or a mainframe, maybe a mainframe to Hadoop? And a huge number of people said, oh yeah, we've already done that. So over 60% and another 30 plus percent said they're going to do it by the end of this year. So literally 94%, 95% of the respondents said, yeah, we're going to start shifting resources by the end of this year or they already have. That's an astounding figure. Now you didn't really dig down deep. You had some in-depth one-on-one interviews you did with various practitioners. So add some color to that stat. Are we seeing what we call like you on a share shift occurring? Is there a big disruption going on where Hadoop is that big sucking sound taking resources away from traditional EDW? And I wonder if you could talk about that and talk about it in the context of Vertica. What does that mean for Vertica? So this is obviously a big topic and one of contention among the different vendors in the space. So you've got the Hadoop vendors on one side, you've got the traditional data warehouse vendors on the other, and most are positioning Hadoop as a complement to the traditional data warehouse. And we would tend to agree with that on the whole. However, as you mentioned in our survey, we found vast majority of respondents have shifted at least one workload from a traditional data warehouse or even a mainframe to Hadoop. Those shifts are being driven largely at this point by cost reduction. Hadoop is something like one-tenth the cost of a traditional data warehouse. Obviously it depends a lot on the workload and other characteristics of the workload. So that's a bit of a broad statement, but if we accept that that premise is true that there's a huge price difference between the EDW and Hadoop. The question then is, of course, which workloads are gonna shift? There's no question that the EDW is a much more mature technology than Hadoop. And in fact, the EDW isn't going away altogether, but there is no question that Hadoop and the EDW are competing for workloads. You have to see we can replace so much as workloads where Hadoop can do the job just as well as an EDW, but for a tenth of cost. You're gonna see those workloads migrate. And I think that's what the survey findings show. So we did dig a little bit into what are those actual use cases? And they're the things you might expect that the most popular use case was data transformation. So doing some of those big, the T and the ETL, moving data to Hadoop to do those transformations rather than doing it in an expensive data warehouse. So, Jeff, I'm gonna ask the vertical folks when they come on, this question I'm gonna ask you. So I want you to give me the answer and then we'll see how they answer. See if they can jive together. Obviously Hadoop is huge. We've been following that from day one, but now it's on mainstream. How does Vertica play with Hadoop? And what does it mean to them? And what's your take on their position vis-a-vis Hadoop and what they're going to do obviously from their position? Are they riding that wave? Are they just kind of barely holding on? Is it really gonna be beneficial to them? What's your take on the Hadoop trend and how Vertica fits in with it? Vertica is in a much stronger position than a lot of the other data warehouse vendors. Vertica from a technology standpoint is a very, has got a very small software footprint. It's a scale-up platform on commodity hardware. It shares a lot of characteristics with Hadoop. It's popular with a lot of developers in, we've seen of course in the gaming industry and a lot of other digital native companies. So that shift that I mentioned where you're moving some workloads from a traditional data warehouse to Hadoop does not impact Vertica as much as some of the other players in the market. It says it's a terror data. Again, that's partly because of the small footprint partly because of the types of workloads that we're seeing most Vertica practitioners doing inside of Vertica. That said, in terms of actually integrating with Hadoop, again, Vertica because it shares so many technology characteristics, scale-out commodity hardware, small footprint with Hadoop. We are seeing a lot of areas where Vertica is very popular to either put side-by-side with your Hadoop installation or in some cases, actually running on the same cluster. We covered here on theCUBE back in February. Partnership with Mapart so that you can actually run Vertica in the same cluster as Mapart. And of course, a few weeks ago, the big news was HP investing 50 million in Hortonworks, the open-source, focused Hadoop company.  But from a technology perspective, the two are gonna work together, Vertica and Hortonworks to certify Vertica on Yarn. So really to make it much easier and more seamless to run Vertica on top of Hadoop. So it's really what Vertica's positioning themselves as is yet another SQL on Hadoop option. And what Vertica has going for it, in addition to the things I mentioned, is that it's of course a much more mature database than some of the other SQL on Hadoop options. So SQL on Hadoop was a big hype up two years ago. What's happened there? A lot of dead bodies kind of on the side of the road now. I won't say a few names. We know them, Dave. We have some friends of ours. But it really is panning. You've seen the big whales obviously there. Give us the update. What is the status of the SQL on Hadoop? Well, it's part of our server we asked that question. And we found that again, an overwhelming majority of Hadoop practitioners are in fact, at least experimenting with these different SQL on Hadoop options. So of course you've got, really the first to market was Cloudera's Impala. I should say even before that, of course, Hive, a project, sub-project of Apache Hadoop really was the SQL on Hadoop kind of originator. But people felt that it was not performative enough. So you saw Cloudera develop Impala. You saw Hortonworks work to develop Hive and improve its performance with the Stinger Initiative, which was recently completed. And then you've got other options, of course, like now Vertica on top of MapR, soon Vertica on top of Hortonworks. But you're saying there's demand for it. Oh, there's absolutely demand. So what the survey said? You said that we want this? Right. So over 80% of our respondents said they are at least experimenting with some SQL on Hadoop option. Which makes sense because they know SQL. It's a language that they're comfortable with. Look, it makes sense because it allows you to move some workloads from your traditional system on to Hadoop and bring in more data scale to larger volumes of data and cut your cost. So it makes a lot of sense. But I think where the real value is going to be is where kind of these new uses, these new ways of interrogating data, using a tool you know, SQL, but bringing in all sorts of different sources of data you couldn't do in a traditional environment. How mature is the integration, though, Jeff? Are the vendors getting it done, generally, in Vertica specifically? Where are we at in terms of true integration? It's still pretty early. I think we've, you know, the practitioners that we've talked to, most are still, while they're experimenting with SQL on Hadoop, I think most, you know, analytic, advanced analytic workloads are still taking place outside of Hadoop, side by side with Hadoop. So we've got a ways to go. The technologies generally are relatively mature, relative to the data warehouse market, obviously. So there's a ways to go. As I mentioned, the Hortonworks HP Vertica partnership, that will be interesting to watch. Right now, that's all it is, is kind of, you know, a partnership announced. We haven't actually seen the hard work happen yet to integrate the two, so that's where the X-Teen has to happen. We're interested in that news because, obviously, it puts Hortonworks right back in the conversation after Cloudera's massive liquidity event with their financing from Intel, which, as some say, it was an IPO for Cloudera, which it really was. It was a great liquidity event for early investors. Pre-IPO IPO. I mean, this is the new normal, right? Get liquid on before the IPO, these secondaries. This is kind of what's happening. Because of all the pressure, Mark Andres has been very, very upfront about it.  And he says on the side, you got to be really buttoned up to go public. So this brings the conversation, Jeff, to the IPO window that's clearly open. This is big data land going public in this next couple of years. So you're starting to see the horse are starting to get ready and hit the track. As we say, you know, when Kentucky Derby's coming and getting into the stalls, it's an IPO window that's wide open. So who's winning? Who's knocking the numbers out of the park? Obviously, Cloudera had to do the big financing. Hortonworks takes the big financing from HP. Are these guys ready to go public? They're moving in the right direction. As I said, at the start of the year, I think, and I thought, and I still think that Cloudera is going to top the $100 million revenue mark for 2014. That's kind of one of their- So you got to be at 100 million. They got to be at 100 million. You got to be growing fast. You got to be growing fast. Based on our research, I think Cloudera is on pace to hit that. And we're only about halfway through the year, so long way to go, but we think they're on pace to do that. And that's largely licensed revenue, correct? Or is it mostly services still? They are probably 55, 45, 60, 40 licensed to services. So probably still two heavy services for the public market. I think probably if you're looking at a potential IPO for them, probably mid-2015, maybe late-2015, as John said, they don't necessarily have to- Just as interest rates are starting to rise. There's not as much pressure on them now to go public with the huge investment from Intel. Another company, Hortonworks, they have very clearly said their goal is to go public. I think you're looking at definitely first half of 2015 for them. They likewise, I think, they're nipping at Cloudera's heels. They may even pass Cloudera in terms of revenue this year. Really? It remains to be seen- So you're saying they're growing faster? They're growing extremely fast. And a lot depends on the relationship with the resellers, obviously, which is kind of underpins Hortonworks. So we'll go to market strategy. So some other companies, we're going to potentially see MapR is another company that sometimes gets left out of the conversation. They seem to be the smaller of the three, but they had a large investment around recently, 100 million. And they're another possible IPO, maybe an acquisition target, maybe IPO, we'll see. And then on the kind of no-sequel side, MongoDB, Max Jerson recently just stepped down as CEO, which was an interesting move. I think for family reasons was why he stepped down and I don't doubt that. But he was more of an engineering-focused CEO and I think they're bringing in more of a financed guy to run the company now, and I think that's in anticipation of an IPO for MongoDB. So they've got some challenges of their own, but it's really an interesting market. It's going to be really interesting on Wall Street to see how these companies perform once they do go public. So how about the view from the Valley, John?  We tried to get some B-roll a couple of weeks ago in Boston and Massachusetts, and the number of companies around here is few and far between in terms of brand names. What's happening in the Valley? Well, first of all, I just want to say, from the CUBE standpoint, Jeff Frick and Grace Stewart and the team will be kicking off September 1st. The CUBE Silicon Valley is kind of our little pilot, but we're going to be aggressive with HBO Silicon Valley hitting mainstream, the big popularity of that show, and also the attention going on when the innovation is huge. The issue with Silicon Valley right now is awesome, right? Jeff mentioned some of the players. Cloudera is positioned with Intel, that liquidity event, although we were talking about that. It's actually a positive for Cloudera because here's what's going on, Dave. In Silicon Valley, a lot of these are transformative technologies, and let's take Cloudera as an instance in Hortonworks. These companies are in the long game. They're going to win big, and if they get forced to go public too early, a lot of bad behavior could come out of that versus staying true to the mission, which is really transforming industries, and that's what's happening. There are some key technologies happening around big data where the new stuff is transforming either incumbents out of business, putting them out of business, and we know that those companies are, and transforming industries. So that's the key thing going on here. So the public market is interesting to me. However, I think you got to look at that and saying, if they go too early, they could miss the full transformation upside, and that is a huge strategic decision that a lot of the VCs are making. And just to use some other random examples, let's take them, the consumer side Snapchat turned down $3 billion offer from Facebook, recently valued at $50 million. So it looks like a good call. BuzzFeed just scored $50 million. The market is frothy right now, but we're talking about transformative technology. Are you worried? I mean, if these companies start doing IPOs and we do have another bubble burst, are you worried that the timing will cause real havoc in the marketplace? Well, no, I think the bubble will, the froth will come off. Let's take Twitter for instance. They went public. I thought they did a good timing on their public offering, but their market, their model was different. The street didn't understand Twitter. What's happening now is, the public market actually helped Twitter get focused. And they're getting focused on keeping the user experience the way it is, maybe making some tweaks, but focusing on the revenue. If you don't have the revenue, public's not going to be a good spot for you. So that's why, you know, look at CloudAir pulled back a little early. You know, they don't want to just force the revenue equation too early. That's what Twitter did the same thing. They created the penetration and the critical mass, then they doubled down on the revenue. So going public is a double edged sword. You go public too early and you're not scaling on the revenue side, you're going to be screwed. Has the next billion dollar company in your opinion, software company going to come out of the big data world or is somebody going to gobble up one of these potential candidates? What's your opinion? I think this is the big debate right now. My personal opinion is that yes, it will be. And I think it's going to be different. And I think this whole, how do you put people in categories is going to change? Oh, they're a software player. They're a SaaS player. I think you're going to start to see things like, what Uber's doing with cars. These new transformative technology don't fit in the category. They're cross categories. I think Andreessen Horowitz calls it the full stack startup.  That's kind of a marketing term. But in reality, it's fully integrated, using big data, it's critical. That's the real lever. So this new model is not going to be some categorical siloed company. It's going to be something completely different. I completely agree. And I think we are going to see the first billion dollar company in big data. It's going to happen. But it might not be who you think. And I think it's more likely you mentioned Uber. It's going to be a company that's using data. Practitioner of big data. It's going to be a practitioner that maybe you don't think of as a big data company. But that's what drives their business. That's what we're going to see, I think. So in Uber and Airbnb, potentially, gaming companies, social media companies. Facebook, Riot Games, Twitch. There's going to be, yeah. The Cube. There will be companies in margin that we can't even think of right now with different use cases. I mean, we saw on stage today. Now, I don't think they're a nonprofit, the Conservation International. But some of the things they're doing with data. I mean, I never would have thought, you never would have thought of some of these use cases. So what's going to happen is you're going to have startups emerge. You're going to have maybe some existing companies pivot and start to use data in ways that we never would have thought of. And that's where you're going to see the billion dollar companies, in my opinion. We got those guys coming on, Conservation International. I totally agree. Billion dollar companies are going to come from out of left field. It's going to be a unicorn. It's going to be a black swan. Whatever you want to call it, it's not going to be predicted. It's just going to happen. I think that's the beautiful thing about transformative technologies. And certainly, the disruption is there. The bubble helps with the financing. And that's why we're here at theCUBE. Getting all the data and sharing that with you. Excited to be back in Boston, Massachusetts for year two of HP Vertica Big Data Conference. We'll be right back with our next guest after this short break.


Hello, and welcome back to the DockerCon 2021 virtual coverage, I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto with a remote interview with a great guest, Cube alumni, Jim Walker, VP of product marketing at Cockroach Labs. Jim, great to see you remotely coming into theCUBE. Normally we're in person soon.  Great to see you. Great to see you as well, John. I miss you. I miss seeing you live and in person. So this has got to do, I guess, right? We had the first multi-cloud event in New York City you guys had was I think one of the last events that was going on towards the end of the year before the pandemic hit. So a lot's happened with Cockroach Labs over the past few years, accelerated growth, funding, amazing stuff. Here at DockerCon, containerization of the world, containers everywhere and all places, you know, hybrid, pure cloud, edge everywhere. Give us the update. What's going on with Cockroach Labs and then we'll get into what's going on at DockerCon. Yeah, you know, Cockroach Labs, this has been a pretty fun ride. I mean, I think about two and a half years now and John, it's been phenomenal as the world kind of wakes up to distributed systems and the containerization of everything. I'm happy we're at DockerCon talking about containerization because I think it's, you know, I think it has radically changed the way we think about software, but more importantly, it's starting to take hold. I think a lot of people would say, oh, it's already taken hold. But if you start to think about like just, you know, these kind of modern applications that are depending on data and what does containerization mean for the database? Well, Cockroach has got a pretty good story, you know?  And I think that's what, we've seen that kind of happen with the infrastructure layer, but I think that last layer of infrastructure is the database. Like I really feel like the database is that dividing line between the business logic and infrastructure. And it's really exciting to see, you know, just massive huge customers come to Cockroach to rethink what the database means in cloud, right? What does the database mean when we move to distributed systems and that sort of thing? And so, you know, momentum has been building here.  Come on, John, you got to say, right? Like, you know, so, and you know, our database as a service, so getting that out there and seeing the uptake there has just been, it's been phenomenal over the past couple of years. Yeah, and you got to love the Cockroach name. I love it, you know, survives nuclear war in winter, all that good stuff, as they say. But really the reality is is that it's kind of an interesting play on words because one of the trends that we've been talking about, I mean, you and I have been talking about this for years and with our CUBE coverage around Amazon web services early on was very clear about a decade ago that there wasn't going to be one database to rule the world. There going to be many, many databases. And as you started getting into these cloud native deployments at scale, you know, use your database of choice was the developer ethos. Just whatever it takes to get the job done. Now you start integrating this in a horizontally scalable way with the cloud. You have now new kinds of scale, cloud scale. And it kind of changes the game on the always on availability question which is how do I get high availability? How do I keep things running? And that is the number one developer challenge whether it's infrastructure as code, whether it's security, shifting left. It all comes down to making sure it stops running at scale and secure. Tell me about that. Absolutely and it's interesting. It's been like I said, this journey and this arc towards distributed systems and truly like delivery of what people want in the cloud. It's been a long arc and it's been a long journey. And I think we're getting to the point where people, you know, they are starting to kind of bake resilience and scale into their applications. And I think that's kind of this modern approach. You know, look, we're taking legacy databases today. People are kind of lift and shift, move them into the cloud, try to run them there, but they aren't just built for that infrastructure. Like there's a fundamentally different approach and infrastructure when you talk about cloud. It's one of the reasons why, you know, John early on your conversations with the AWS team and what they did. It's like, yeah, how do we give resilient and ubiquitous and always on, you know, scalable kind of infrastructure for people? Well, that's great from that those layers, but when you start to get into the software that's running on these things, it isn't lift and shift and it's not even moving improved. You can't like just take a legacy system and change one piece of it to make it kind of take advantage of, you know, the scale and the resilience and the ubiquity of the cloud because there's very, very explicit challenges.  Let's tear the database down and let's rethink it and build from the ground up to be cloud native. And I think the technologies that have done that that have kind of built from scratch to be cloud native are the ones that are, I believe, you know, three years from now, that's what we're going to be talking about.  It's the Spanner white paper. And, you know, what Google did, they didn't build, they didn't use an existing database because they needed something for transactional relational database. They hire a bunch of really incredible engineers, right? And they've got like Jeff Dean and Sanjay Gemawad over there, like designing and doing all these cool things and they build. And I think that's what we're seeing. And I think that's, to me, the exciting part about data in the cloud as we move forward. Yeah, and I think the Google Cloud Infrastructure everyone, I think that's the same mindset for Amazon is that I want all the scale, but I don't want to do it like over 10 years, I want to do it now, which I love. I want to get back to this thing, but I want to ask you specifically this definition of containerization of the database. I've heard that kicked around. Love the concept. I kind of understand what it means, but I want you to define it for us. What does it mean when someone says containerizing the database? Yeah, I mean, simply put the database in container and run it. And that's all, I think that's like maybe step one. I think that's what, that's kind of lift and shift. Let's put it in a container and run it somewhere. And that's kind of, that's not that hard to do. I think I could do that. I mean, I haven't coded in a long time, but I think I could figure that out. It's when you start to actually have, you know, multiple instances of a container, right? And that's where things get really, really tricky. Now we're talking about true distributed systems. We're talking about how do you coordinate data? How do you, how do you balance data across multiple instances of a database, right?   You can't just have like, you know, four instances of a database, all with the same information in a John, without any sort of coordination, right? Like you hit one node and you hit another one, the same account, you know, which, which transaction wins? And so the concepts in distributed systems around, there's this thing called the cap theorem, this consistency availability and partition tolerant. And actually understanding how these things work, especially for data in distributed systems to make sure that it's going to be, you know, consistent and available. And you're going to scale. Those things are not simple to solve. And again, it comes back to this, I don't think you can do it with legacy database. You kind of have to re-architect. And it comes down to where data is stored. It comes down to how it's replicated. It comes down to really ultimately, where it's physically located. I think when you, when you deploy a database, you think about the logical model, right? You think about tables and normalization and referential integrity. The physical location is, is extremely important as we kind of move to kind of containerized and distributed systems, especially around data. Well, you guys are here at DockerCon 2021, Cockroach Labs, good success. Love the architectural flexibility that you guys offer. And again, bringing that scale. And like you mentioned, it's awesome value proposition, especially if people want to just, just program the infrastructure. What are you, what's going on with, with DockerCon specifically, a lot of talk about developer productivity, a lot of talk about collaboration and trust with containers, big story around security. What's your angle here at DockerCon this year? What's the big reveal? What's the discussion? What's the top conversation? Yeah, I mean, look at where we are a containerized database and we are an incredibly great choice for developers. You know, for us, it's, look at, there's certain developer communities that are important on this planet, John. And this is one of them, right? This is, you know, I don't know a developer doesn't have that little whale up in their, you know, in their, in their status bar, right? And, you know, for us, it's, look at, look at, you know me, man, I believe in this tech and I believe that this is something that's driven greatly simplify our lives over the next two to three to 10 to 15 years. And for us, it's about awareness. And, and I think once people see cockroaches, they're like, oh my God, how did I ever even think differently? And so for us, it's kind of moving in that direction. But, you know, ultimately our, our vision where we want to be is, is we want to, we want to abstract the database to a SQL API in the cloud. We want to make it so simple that I just have this REST interface.  And as a developer, I never have to worry about scale. I never have to worry about DR, right? It's always going to be on. And most importantly, I don't have to worry about low latency access to data no matter where I'm at on the planet, right? I can give every user this kind of, you know, sub 50 millisecond access to data or sub 20 millisecond access to data. And that, that is the true delivery of the cloud, right? Like, I think that's what the developer wants out of the cloud. They want to code against the service, like, man, it's got to be consumption based and you secure and, you know, I don't want to have to pay for stuff. I'm not using and that all those things. And so, you know, for us, that's what we're building to and, you know, interacting in this environment is, is critical for us because I think that's where our audience is. I want to get your thoughts on, you guys do have success with a couple of different personas and developers out there, groups, you know, classic developers, software developers, which is this show is at DockerCon full of developers, KubeCon, a lot of operators, cool and some devs, but mostly cloud native operations. Here's the developer shop. So you guys got to hit the developers, which really care about building fast and building the scale and last with security. Architects you had success with, which is the classic, you know, cloud architecture, which now distributed computing, we get that. But the third area, I would call the kind of the role that both the architects and the developers had to take on, which is being the DevOps person or then becomes the SRE in the group, right? So most startups have the DevOps team, developers, they do DevOps natively and within every role. So they're the same people provisioning. But as you get larger in an enterprise, the DevOps role, whether it's in a team or group, takes on this SRE, Site Reliability Engineer. You know, this is a new dynamic that brings engineering and coding together. It's like, not so much an ops person, it's much more of like an engineering developer. Why is that role so important? And we're seeing more of it in dev teams, right? Seeing an SRE person or a DevOps person inside teams, not a department. Yeah. Do you agree? Yeah, I mean, we employ an army of SREs that manage and maintain our, you know, Cockroach cloud, which is, you know, Cockroach DB as a service, right? How do you deliver kind of a world-class experience for somebody to adopt a, you know, managed service database such as ours, right?  We have personal kind of, you know, an opinion on this.   And we built a database that was actually amenable to the SRE, right? This is exactly what they want. They want it to scale up and down. They want it to just survive things. They want to be able to script this thing and basically script the world. They want to actually, that's how they want to manage and maintain. And so for us, you know, I think our initial audience was definitely architects and operators. And it's the KubeCon crowd. And they're like, wow, this is cool. This is architected just like Kubernetes. In fact, like at CD, which is a key piece of Kubernetes. Well, we contribute back up to at CD, our raft implementation. So there's a lot of the same tech here. What we've realized though, John, what database is interesting, you know, like the architect is choosing a database sometimes, but more often than not, a developer is choosing that database. And it's like, they go out, they find a database, they just start building and that's what happens.  You know, this database is wire compatible with Postgres, and it speaks to SQL syntax, which if you look at some of the other solutions that are trying to do these things, those things are really difficult to do again. So like a critical decision to make sure that it's amenable that now we can build the ORMs and all the tools that people would use and expect out of Postgres from a developer point of view, but let's simplify and automate and give the right kind of like the platform that the SREs need as well. And so for us, the last year and a half is really about, how do we actually build the right tooling for the developer crowd too? And we've really pushed really far in that world as well. Yeah, talk about the aspect of the scale of a safe startup, for instance, because you made this great example, Borg to Kubernetes, because Borg was Google's internal Kubernetes-like thing. So you guys have Spanner, which everyone knows is a great product that Google had. You guys have almost the commercial version of that for the world.   I don't need that scale. Or so how do you address that point? Because some people say, well, this might dismiss the notion of using it. How do you respond to that? Yeah, John, we get this all the time. Like, I'm not global. My application is not global. I don't need this. I don't need a tank, right?  And so, the funny thing is, even if you're in a single region and you're building a simple application, does it need to be always on? Does it need to be available? Can it survive the failure of a server or a rack or an AZ? It doesn't have to survive the failure of a region, but I tell you what, if you're successful, you're going to want to start actually deploying this thing across multiple regions. So you can survive a backhoe hitting a cable and the entire East Coast going out, right? Like, and so with Cockroach, it's really easy to do that. So it's four little SQL commands and I have a database that's going to span all those regions, right? And I think that's important. But more importantly, think about scale. When a developer wants to scale, typically it's like, okay, I'm going to spin up Postgres and I'm going to keep increasing my instance size. So I'm going to scale vertically until I run out of room and then I'm going to have to start sharding this database. And when you start doing that, it adds this kind of application complexity that nobody really wants to deal with. And so forget it, just let the database deal with all that. So, we find this thing extremely useful for the single developer in a very small application. But the beauty thing is, if you wanted to go global, great, just keep out of notes. Like when that application does take off and it's the next breakthrough thing, this database is going to grow with you. So it's good enough to kind of start small, but it's a scale fast. It'll go global if you want to. You have that option, I guess, right?  So clearly a good point. Let me ask you a question. Take me through a use case where with Cockroach, some scenario develops nicely. You can point to the visibility of the use case for the developer and then kind of how it played out. And then compare that and contrast that to a scenario that doesn't go well. Where it plays out well for an example. And then if they didn't deploy it, they got hung up and went sideways. Yeah, you know, like Cockroach was built for transactional workloads. That's what we are. Like we are optimized for the speed of light and consistent transactions. That's what we do and we do it very well. At least I think so, right? But I think, you know, like the, my favorite customer of all of ours is DoorDash. And about a year ago, DoorDash came to us and said, look at, we have a transactional database that can't handle the right volume that we're getting. It falls over, you know, and they'd significant challenges. And if you think about DoorDash and DoorDash's business, they're looking at IPO in the summer and going through these, you can't have any issues, you know? So the system's gotta be up and running, right? And so for them, it was like, you know, we need something that's reliable. We need something that's not gonna come down. We need something that's gonna scale and handle burst and these sort of things. And their business is big. Their business is not just, let me, you know, deliver food all the time. It's deliver anything. Like be that intermediary between, you know, a good and somebody's front door. That's what DoorDash wants to be. And, you know, for us, yeah, their transactions and that back in transactional system is built on Cockroach. And if you, that's one year ago, they needed to get experienced. And once they did, they started to see that this was like very, very valuable and lots of different workloads they had. So anywhere there's any sort of transactional workload be it metadata, be it any sort of like inventory or transaction stuff that we see in companies, that's where people are coming to us. And it's these traditional relational workloads that have been wrapped up in these, you know, transactional relational databases, you know, what built for the cloud. So I think what you're seeing is, that's the other shoe to drop. We've seen this happen, you know, you're watching Databricks, you're watching Snowflake, kind of do this whole data cloud and then the analytical side, John, that's been around for a long time and there's that move to the cloud. That same thing that happened for OLAP has got to happen for OLTP. Where we don't do well is when somebody thinks that we're an analytic database. It's not what we were built for, right? We're optimized for transactions. And I think you're going to continue to see these two sides of the world, especially in cloud, especially because I think the way that our global systems are going to work, you don't want to do analytics across multiple regions, it doesn't make sense, right? And so that's why you're going to see this, the continued kind of two markets, OLAP and OLTP going on. And we're just, we're square in the OLTP side of the world. Yeah, talk about the transaction processing side of it when you start to change the distributed architecture that goes from core edge, core on-premises to edge. Edge being intelligent edge, industrial edge, whatever, you're going to have more action happening. And you're seeing Kubernetes already kind of talking about this and with the containers you got. So you got kind of two dynamics. How does that change the nature of the level of, the nature of and the level of volume of transactions? Well, it's interesting, John. I mean, if you look at something like Kubernetes, it's still really difficult to do multi-region or multi-cloud Kubernetes, right? This is one of those things that like, you know, you start to move Kubernetes to the edge, you're still kind of managing all these different things. And I think it's not the volumes, it's the operational nightmare of that. For us, let's federate at the data layer. Like I could deploy cockroaches across multiple Kubernetes clusters today and you're going to have one single logical database running across those. In fact, you can deploy cockroaches today on top of three public cloud providers. I can have nodes in AWS. I could have nodes in GCP. I could have nodes running on VMs in my data center. Any one of those nodes can service requests and it's going to look like a single logical database. Now that to me, you know, when we talked about multi-cloud a year and a half ago or whatever that was, John, you know, that's an actual multi-cloud application and delivering data so that you don't have to actually deal with that in your application layer, right? You can do that down in the guts of the database itself. And so I think it's going to be interesting in the way that these things get consumed and the way that we think about where data lives and where our compute lives, I think that's part of what you're thinking about too. Yeah, so let me, while I got you here, one of the things on my mind, I think people want to maybe get clarification on this real quick while you're here, take a minute to explain the interesting Cockroach DB and Cockroach Cloud. Okay, they're different products.  What's the difference for the developers watching? What's the difference between the two and when do I need to know the difference between the two? So, you know, to me, they're really one because Cockroach Cloud is Cockroach DB as a service. You know, it's our offering that makes it, you know, a world-class easy to consume experience of working with Cockroach DB where, you know, we take on all the hardware, we take on the SRE role, we make sure it's up and running, right? You're gonna connection stringing your code against it. And I think, you know, that side of our world is really all about this kind of highly evolved database and delivering that as a service and you can actually use it as Cockroach DB. I think it's really interesting, John, is the next generation of what we're building, the serverless version of our database where, you know, this is just an API in the cloud. You know, we're gonna have one instance of Cockroach with multi-tenant, you know, database in there and any developer can actually spin up on that. And to me, you know, that gets to be a really interesting world. When the world turns serverless and we have, you know, we're running, you know, our compute in Lambda and we're doing all these great things, right? Or we're using Cloud Run and Google, right? What is the, what's the corresponding database to actually deal with that? And that to me is a fundamentally different database because what is scale in the serverless world? It's autonomous, right? What's scale in the current like Cockroach world? Well, you kind of keep adding nodes to it, you manage, you deal with that, right? You know, what does resilience mean in a serverless world? It's just, yeah, it's just there all the time. What's important is latency when you get to kind of serverless, like where are these things deployed? And I think to me, the interesting part of like the two sides of our world is what we're doing with serverless and kind of this, and how we actually expose the core value of Cockroach DB in that way. Yeah, and I think that's one of the things that is the nirvana or the holy grail of infrastructure as code is making it, I won't say irrelevant, but invisible. If you're really dealing with a database thing, hey, I'm just scaling and coding and the database stuff is just working with compute, just whatever, how that's serverless. And you know, you mentioned Lambda. That's the, that's the action because you don't want, by deciding what the database is just having it happen is more productivity for the developers. So that kind of circles back to the whole productivity message for the developers. So I totally get that. I think that's a great vision. The question I have for you, Jim, is the big story here is developer simplicity. How are you guys making it easier to just deploy? John, it's just an extension of the last part of the conversation. I don't want a developer to ever have to worry about a database. Like that's what Spencer and Peter and Ben have in their vision. It's, how do I make the database so simple? It's a SQL API in a thought. Like it's a REST interface. I code against it. I run queries against it. I never have to worry about scaling the thing. I never have to worry about creating active passive and primary and secondaries and all these like the DevOps side of it, all this operation stuff. It's just kind of done in the background, dude. And if we can build it, and it's actually there now where we have it in beta, you know, what's the role of the cost base optimizer in this new world that we've had in databases, how are you actually ensuring data is located close to users? And we're, we're automating that so that when John's in Australia doing a show, his data is going to follow him there. So he has fast access to that, right? And that's the kind of stuff that we're talking about the next generation of infrastructure, John, not like, we're not building for today. Like in Congress labs is not building for like 2021. Sure, do we have something that's great? We're building something that's 22 and 23 and 24, right? Like what do we need to be as a, you know, as a extremely productive set of engineers? And that's what we think about all day. How do we make data easy for the developer? Well, Jim, great to have you on, VP of product marketing at Cockroach Labs. We've known each other for a long time. I got to ask you while I got you here, final question is, you know, you and I have chatted about the many waves of open source and the computer industry. What's your take on where we are now? And obviously you're looking at it from the Cockroach Labs perspective, which is large scale, distributed computing, kind of you're on the new side of history, the right side of history, cloud native. Where are we right now? Compare and contrast, for the folks watching who are trying to understand the importance of where we are in the industry. Where are we and what's your take? Yeah, John, I feel fortunate to be in a company such as this one and, you know, the past couple that I've like been around. I feel like we are in the middle of a transformation and it's just like the early days of this next generation. And I think we're seeing it in a lot of ways in the infrastructure for sure, but we're starting to see it creep up into the application layer. And for me, it is so incredibly exciting to see the cloud was, remember when cloud was like this thing that people were like, oh boy, maybe I'll do it. Now it's like it's, anything that new is going to be on cloud, right? Like we don't even think twice about it. And the coming nature of cloud native and actually these technologies that are coming are going to be really interesting. I think the other piece that's really interesting, John, is the changing role of open source in this whole game. Because I think of open source as code, consumption and community, right? I think about those. And then there's license, of course. I think people were always, a lot of people wrapped around licensing. Consumption has changed. John, Matt, back when we were talking Hadoop, consumption was like, oh, it's free. I get this thing. I could just download and use it. Well, consumption over the past three years, everybody wants everything as a service. And so we're ready to pay. For us, how do we bring free back to the service? And that's what we're doing. That's what I find. Like I am so incredibly excited to go through this kind of, bringing back free beer to open source. I think that's going to be great. Because if I can give you a database free up to five gig or 10 gig, man, and it's available all over the planet, it has fully featured. That's bringing our community and our code, which is all open source. And this consumption model back. And I'm super excited about that. Yeah, free beer. Who doesn't like free beer? Of course, developers love free beer. And a great t-shirt, too. That's soft. Make sure you get the soft t-shirt. You just don't want free puppy. You know what I mean? Remember, it was just like, that sounds painful. Well, Jim, great to see you remotely. Can't wait to see you in person at the next event. We've got the fall window coming up. We'll see some events. I think KubeCon in LA is going to be in person. Reinvent a database for sure will be in person. We know that for a fact, we'll be there. So we'll see you in person. And congratulations on the work at Cockroach Labs. Thanks, John. Great to see you again. All right, this Kube coverage of DockerCon 2021. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. Thanks for watching.