All attendees are in listen-only mode. Good morning, traders. This is Bruce at Velox Pro. If you can hear me and see my screen, please type yes in the questions and we'll get started. All right. Thank you. Okay. Good morning, everybody. All right. So let's take a look here. There's the handouts folder there in the GoToWebinar software. And I just want to let you guys know about that. There's a few PDFs in there. There is the Bookmap User Guide for 5.0, and then the Bookmap HFT Intro Guide, as well as I keep uploading the CME Rule 575 PDF as well, because it gives insight to exactly what's going on in these markets today, and how Bookmap visualizes a lot of the information that is in that rule. A lot of the spoofing type of action, flipping of the book, and a lot of other phenomena that is considered illegal now. And Bookmap helps visualize this kind of behavior. You can see it right in the book. Okay. So it's very topical. It's being defined right now in the courts. You'll see articles, and there have been several articles about it in the last few years, and you will continue to see articles about it. So that as well as the Bookmap HFT Intro Guide will be very helpful for you. All right. So those are a few of the free resources. I'm going to get into some others here, but let's first go through learning order flow in Bookmap here today, and the risk disclaimer is trading futures and options on futures involves substantial risk of loss. It's not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not indicative of future results. More information at bookmap.com, and then those free resources. Okay. So once you come into the members area here, the portal, this is where you'll find these resources. All right. It's under this Education tab here. Click on this link here for the link to all of the recorded webinars. All right. So this webinar will be up there as well, and then you can see the one from Friday here. And after today, if you want to watch Fridays, click on the upper left-hand corner here, and you can see there's a dropdown of all these previous webinars. Okay. For example, we gave one on the 23rd on Thursday to the oil trading group. Okay. It was hosted outside of bookmap.com. And then you can also see the webinar series that we had last week, or a week ago, with a bunch of other traders that were invited to present here during this time. We had Mete on Monday. We had FT-71 on Tuesday. We had Ferron Font-Romental on Wednesday. On Thursday, we had Jason Love from the oil trading group. And then Friday, we had Daniel Skalak. Okay. So please watch those. This was a great series with real traders, how they're using bookmap in their style. Okay. That's what's key here. And that'll be what's helpful here. I'm going to go through, and we're going to read the order flow. However, I'm not going to dictate any sort of specific style or set up or anything like that. If you're looking for that, these webinars will help you. Okay. And then, let's see, the other videos here, I want to encourage you to watch as many of these as you can, these video snippets. So click on this link here. And very short, concise videos. They're just a few minutes each. And they go through the phenomena that we can see here in the order flow. And then you will look at your specific levels and your style of trading and then how bookmap gives you insight to the order flow at those areas. Homayra, you were not able to see the webinars? Okay. They should be in there. There should be a link that, there might be a text link and just click on the recorded webinars. You'll see it in there. All right. Okay. So, if you have any questions for us, reach out at support at voloxpro.com. Okay. And then, let's get into the presentation. Okay. So learning the order flow with bookmap. Why order flow? Well, you're going to want to look at what exactly the market is telling you on the microstructural level at your specific levels of interest. So we'll look at some higher time frames first. Okay. Regardless of how you trade, if you get an indicator signal and it's telling you to buy it, well, then you want to look at the book and see what it's telling you. You're going to gain insight to those areas and it's going to maybe make you a second guess at those points and just say, no, this is not what I'm looking for at this level. I'm going to pass on this trade. And this is going to give you tremendous insight at those levels. Okay. And we'll go through that. We'll see how they're supporting price on the breakouts or not. And you'll be able to read it very, very quickly in book map. Okay. And that's going to allow you to not only validate your signals, but then to pinpoint entries and exits as well as your trade management. All right. So let's take a look at some higher levels. We're going to look at the ES. And we're going to start here just with a daily chart. And you can see just continuation to the upside here. And also today too, we see yet again continuation to the upside. Okay. And now let's jump down to 30 minute. Okay. And what is this telling us? Okay. So I'm just going to outline some specific areas. Right. So we have something to gauge. Okay. So this is just something I do in general. So we have an area to look at to see what the order flow is going to look like at these areas. I'm using just simple horizontal lines and trend lines. And you can see that here at 9.30, this is the cash open, the candle here. Well, we had initial move to the downside and a lot of buying coming in in this area here. Okay. So from this area 61 on up, and you can see the follow through to the upside and they found the sellers up here. And this was from the overnight session. Okay. Last night and it looks like maybe Sunday as well. Okay. So I am interested in what the order flow looks like at some of these levels up here. And yeah, we had previously aligned here down at this 59 area. So some pretty strong buying. They didn't even come down to that area. They started buying immediately before that. Okay. At 61. So that's showing us something already. Okay. So let's take a look at the book and see what it's telling us here. Okay. You can see here with 5.0 bookmap beta version. We have a indicator panel in the subpanel here, subchart as well as this little widget panel that gives me the output and numeric value of my cumulative volume delta. Now we're just demoing this right now or it's a beta version to show you our new bookmap API. All right. So you can program and import custom indicators into bookmap now. You can write them yourselves. It's Java based. And you can also write your own trading strategies. Okay. That's under this button up here, the API add on configurations. Okay. Click on that. You'll see the button here for volume, cumulative volume delta and the settings here. We can go over this a little bit later. But I just want to point that out. And then I also want to point out these automated trading strategies. Okay. Now these are not available for a live funded account. It's available in the live market, but when it's simulated only in bookmap. Okay. So if you're a Ninja user, we can't actually mimic that simulated by bookmap only. So you can only use it in replay mode. Okay. So just please note that. And let's see here. Well, we'll go through these. Maybe we have all week to go through some of the trading strategies in the cumulative volume delta. But let's just start with the basics here. Okay. And what are we looking at in bookmap? All right. And actually before that, I think there was one more resource here. Did not go through. If you want to give bookmap a try and you want to follow along in these webinars, this is where you can find it. It's under this pricing tab. Click on the, if you want to try a demo here, you get it for 14 days. Okay. That's completely free. And see if you like it. All right. And you can follow along in these webinars. And you can see the two prices that are available for basic and for advanced. They are subscription-based, billed quarterly, but monthly price is 49 and 99 for the advanced. Okay. The advanced has all of these add-ons and the capability to trade from the bookmap chart as well. The one-click trading here. Okay. All right. So that's, I would encourage you to try the, at least the trial so you can follow along and see if this works for you or not. It's really, it's up to you. Okay. But we think that you give it a try. You'll start to see the markets in different light here. All right. So let's start with that. What are we looking at in bookmap? All right. So there's a lot of, it looks like there's a lot of information here, a lot of data. Okay. It really isn't. It's actually very, very straightforward here and a very objective and transparent view of the marketplace. Okay. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to turn off the volume dots here and the heat map settings. Okay. And now we can really simplify this. Okay. There's three sections we're looking at here in bookmap. Okay. This view here is all historical. All right. This view here, this vertical rectangular window is the current market. All right. We can see the best bid and offer right here with these dash lines. And then this number here is the last traded volume. Then you can see your price ladder here on the ES and then you see these columns here. Okay. The columns, well, let's go hover over the top of the, well, the title here, it says current order book, COB. Okay. This is your depth of market in bookmap. Okay. So this is your dome. All right. And this is your, your depth here on the bid down to this white line. Okay. And then use your depth on the offer up to this white line. Okay. And then you can see the best bid and offer right here. All right. The other column I have right to the right of it here is another current order book column. However, this is just a graphical representation of the numbers here in the book. All right. So we can very quickly point out areas of high liquidity by looking just at the bars. Okay. These columns that you see over here, the CVP and the SVP, these are just their volume profile columns. And there's all sorts of different columns and configurations. We can look at traded volume. We can look at actual number of trades. We can look at quotes that were refreshed and we can look at the delta of quotes, the change of the quotes. All right. As well as custom note columns. Okay. So there's all sorts of things in here. If you want to know more about that, just right click here and you can see what we can format this column. We have some other settings for session accumulated and chart range. But you can see and you can reset those as well. But you can see all the different kinds of data here. Okay. Current order book, volume, trades counter, quotes counter, et cetera. Okay. So that's just right click and that'll get you set up. Robert, what's the white line on the profiles? Yeah. This is, it's not the POC. It's your VWAP. Okay. And it's probably going to be more or less the same. Okay. See Jim, would it be too much to ask maybe sometime look at the NQ and give some thoughts. Doesn't have to happen today. Yeah. Sure. We can look at the NQ another day. I don't even have that market loaded here. Okay. But yeah, that's no problem. Okay. So let's simplify this. What we're looking at in book map here. Okay. So we got our columns, we got our current market window here and we have our historical best-bidden offer. That's all we're looking at here. It's just historical best-bidden offer. All right. And no candlesticks. We're not time-based like that. It's not a certain time configuration. Or we're not tick-based either. You know, there's no sort of action that's taken once a tick occurs. There's no accumulation. It's a streaming market. And we're recording every single event down to the nanosecond. Okay. So historical view just best-bidden offer right now. Okay. Let's turn on the volume dots. Okay. Now we're just looking at traded volume on the historical best-bidden offer. And that's it. Okay. You can see that this is very much like a footprint chart because you can see where the volume is trading, the size, how much, what type it is. Okay. If it's red, it's an aggressive market sell. If it's green, it's an aggressive market buy. You'll notice that these pie displays here, there's a combination of buying and selling, but we're still giving you the overall delta. You can see that in this little spike to the downside, it's the majority of it is selling. Okay. More than three-quarters of it is going to be selling. All right. So that's very much like your footprint chart. All right. Okay. So that's just a best bid and offer with added, the addition of volume. Okay. Now, we're going to turn on the heat map. Okay. Okay. Now, this grayscale heat map, now it's getting, it looks a lot busier. It's actually very, very simple. Okay. What we're doing book map, and I'm going to zoom in here. Okay. We take areas of high liquidity from the limit order book. Okay. And to, in the live market window, this, these areas of high liquidity are, are now given a graphical representation in the heat map. Okay. So we know very bright areas are high liquidity. Okay. And you'll see that these, these areas here, they will add and pull liquidity, and these areas will get brighter and darker as they're adding and pulling liquidity. The numbers will change. And at the same moment, the heat map will change. Okay. And there's a configuration button here that we can show. Let me just bring up the brightness a little bit and you'll see the distinctions here. Now, it's a little too noisy for me, but just for this demo, I want to show you these areas of the, of the scale in the heat map. Okay. So you get an idea of what's going on. Okay. These numbers change and the heat map changes. Now, where this gets really interesting is we record this data. Okay. And then project it onto the chart historically. Okay. So these areas here, notice these striations in the, in the heat map. That's the adding and pulling of liquidity. All right. They, they come into the market. They add and then they, it starts to get a little darker here. They're pulling liquidity and then they add back and this goes on all day long. Okay. However, that's great, but you know, maybe that's not so helpful. That's why you'll need to use the, the contrast configurations tool here. Okay. Just click on that and let's bring up the white cutoff. Okay. And maybe the, the black cutoff will bring that up a little bit too. Okay. And I'm going to bring down the brightness. Okay. Now I'm getting a heat map. Let's bring up maybe the large, large size here. Just a little bit. Okay. All right. Now this is giving me a heat map that I can read and I can use for my style of trading. Okay. It really depends on you. There's no one setting and it's, and it's not set and forget. Because, and the reason being is that all of a sudden you might see 2,000 contracts come in here. Okay. And that's going to make the scaling here and the heat map different. Okay. But all you need to do is just click on this tool here and just tweak it a little bit. All right. And you'll be fine. Okay. All right. So now we can take a look and we can start to understand the auction and the intent of the traders, not the transactions that took place, but the actual auction where, where they were bidding and offering and why, for example, you know, I was looking at my higher timeframe earlier. Okay. Let's go to that. Okay. I was kind of anticipating them to come down here to the 60 level. Okay. 5960 area. Okay. And they didn't. Why is that? Okay. Well, this is why. Here's, here's your answer right here. Okay. Look at, look at the depth of the market here in the book. Okay. These traders meant business. Okay. They wanted to get into these areas with high liquidity. Okay. We can use this data tip tool and we can roll over these areas and we can start to see. Notice how, like we, okay. So, and I use this tool here. In fact, let me zoom in. I'm going to click on the hand tool, hover over this area and we're going to just use a center mouse wheel to scroll in. Okay. Now this data tip tool, it shows us the, the date, the time and then what was on the bid at this price level. Okay. Over here, there was 1200 contracts. Now there's 1300 and as I scroll forward here or move forward, they're adding more and more liquidity in as price is coming down. Okay. So that means that they want to buy. All right. In fact, they got very aggressive here and they, they even added a very, very high liquidity. A few ticks above these guys here. Okay. All right. So we can see that the liquidity here was over 1300 contracts at 61. Okay. Here's our 60 and a half and they had almost 1600 contracts. Okay. A little bit lower, couple ticks lower. They're adding in as well. 1300 contracts. Okay. So we know and from this behavior, they want to buy. All right. The sellers could take them on but, you know, they didn't and they were supporting price at this level and wanted to be buyers here and price veered away from it. Okay. And that is the reason why we didn't come down into our level at 60. These guys were kind of front running that level. All right. Okay. So, okay, I know that's a lot of information but, and I'll get into this a little bit more. Just to simplify things here. But first, let's go back to the presentation here and I want to go over the order flow here. All right. So, we looked at our higher levels. We're looking at our micro structure now but let's read that area. Okay. We're going to show up every day here to the marketplace, to the auction. Okay. And we're going to, the first three questions that we want to know about this auction is where are the big, the big buyers and sellers? Okay. That is the current configuration of the book. Okay. Where are they? All right. And then we want to understand how do they behave when price approaches them at these areas? Okay. And then we're going to read the tape. Okay. The transactions. All right. So, you know, we were reading this area here. This was, and we know this is high liquidity because it's bright white. Okay. Compared to the other areas around it. And we can see how the market behaved into that area. And where were they on the offer? Well, this is kind of interesting stuff here. They were actually pretty aggressive in this area here. And a lot of that, a lot of that got filled. It got absorbed. You can see the transactions taking place here and these green dots, these flurries of activity here with green. Right. There's a lot of buying in here. Okay. And that pulled the market up. Now we get a retest right down a little bit below this little kind of flurry of activity here. And it rejected out of that area and then went back up to the upside. Okay. But we're just looking at the buyers and the sellers. Okay. And where are they lining up to trade? Just like showing up at any auction. Okay. So let's look at the current book. What is that telling us? If I zoom in a little bit here, well, we're coming down and we're testing the buyers here at 65 and a half right now. Okay. That is the current configuration. Okay. Where are the sellers? Okay. Well, they're up here and they're starting to pull. But they were up here at 67 and three quarters. Okay. Now we're going to answer that second question very objectively here. How are these guys behaving at 65 and a quarter here? Well, clearly they're staying in the book. Right. Now they just pulled a bit. Right. There they are. Now a lot of that is listed here. We can see. Okay. They took them on and they provided that high liquidity. But look how they stayed in the book here. Look at the transactions that took place in here. Okay. And it wasn't that many. We see very little, you know, red dots here. Not too many. Right. In fact, they took them on a little bit lower here. Okay. A tick lower. But so we're answering that second question. How do they behave as price approaches them? Okay. And they stayed here. Okay. And then they pulled a little bit and, you know, just one tick below but it traded. Now, so that answers our second question. Okay. How do they behave at these areas? And we know that they wanted to buy. Okay. And they stayed in the book. Okay. So now look at the aggressive sellers here. Now they're starting to pop in. They've been up here at 67 and three quarters. Now they're at 67 and below. All right. And what about, are they going to defend this area of the buyers? Are they still interested in buying at this level? Well, not, we're starting to see them starting to pop back into the book a little bit here. All right. But that was, it wasn't like before. Okay. Now they're starting to get interested, as price is going away. And then these sellers here, they're pulling. Okay. The buyers, I mean this, the bulls can have the run here if they want. All right. They can just lift the offer up into higher liquidity. All right. But not, not quite getting it right now. All right. Okay. So that answers the first two questions showing up to that marketplace and reading the intent of, well first off, where are they in the book, the larger buyers and sellers. And then secondly, how are they behaving as price approaches them? Okay. And we're answering those questions. Okay. So we know that they're buying in these in these areas here around 65. Okay. Doesn't mean that, you know, it can't continue on and trade to the downside here at all. We can see a flip of the book. We can see the aggressive sellers. They can really hit the bid hard down below that area. And then you might see these, these buyers here on the, on the bid at the 65 and three quarters area flip and be on the, on the offer. All right. That's a possible scenario here. Okay. We see it all the time. But we're just getting insight to the current, the current auction. Okay. Now the third question, and this is considered the traditionally the the tape reading. Okay. Is the transactions. Where are the transactions taking place? The volume? Where is it trading? How much? And, and start to get a feel for where, where they really want to deal, because the volume in the end is showing you the transactions and, you know, that that can't be pulled like liquidity can. Okay. But, you know, it's a combination of things here. The understanding the limit order book has a tremendous impact on price. Okay. As we can see here, I mean this, this wasn't really a level earlier. Okay. But it was though due to the, the liquidity here. This was the story here. Okay. And that's how it can help you give insight to your areas. All right. Okay. All right. So, reading the tape here. Okay. Well, we can see here in the 930 open, the volume really picks up. We have an initial move to the downside, and we saw them supported at a higher area here. And we can see the the aggressive bind that came in, and we made highs here from this, this little swing from the open. And we got, we got a retest here, but they came right back in and pulled, pulled price up to the upside. Okay. So I'm just going to use a few simple, you can draw on the chart now in, in bookmap 5.0. Okay. And just look at some simple lines yet again here. Okay. For, just for our bookmap. All right. Horizontal line. We can see that this is kind of a flip of the book as well. Okay. We, we started to, we traded through this area. It's pretty sloppy, but we traded through this area around 60, between 65 and 66. And we're, we're back now testing that area to see if those buyers are still here. Okay. All right. So in that flip of the book that here, they were on the offer and they pulled, right back at this area here. Let me get back to my arrow. Okay. At this area here and they started pulling as prices coming up. Okay. So, you know, we don't, we don't see the transactions taking place here, but now they were on the offer and now they're kind of supporting it, you know, much, much later though, back in here at this area at 65 and a half, okay. All right. So, well, we'll see now. Let's, let's take a look at the auction. What's going on here? Let's see, Christopher, you can't see the same iceberg orders as I. Yeah. You know, the iceberg detector is this red number Christopher is talking about and it's in the current order book bars column here and what, what this number is showing here and this is one of the add-ons for the advanced bookmap version is, it's showing liquidity that traded that wasn't in the book. Okay. So, let's say on the offer here, you know, you see this 341. Well, in that area here, there was 341 contracts traded that was not in that limit order book at that moment. Okay. So, you have to be, this is kind of tricky iceberg detector. It really depends on how the the orders come into bookmap. It's, it's a very, you know, simple algo in bookmap. But it, what really matters is the the, the data of, of how and when it hits the book. All right. And the, all right. And you might get the varying numbers between different data providers. Even from the same provider from just different areas. And even from the same area and the same data provider with different machines. Okay. So, it's not, you're not going to see exactly the same things here. Okay. Yeah. Chris, you want me to continue on with the imbalance indicator as well. Okay. No problem. We'll get into that. And the, the, the imbalance add-on indicators are up here. Okay. You see the book imbalance and volume imbalance. All right. What this is showing here is, we'll start with this, the volume imbalance, because that's easy. The volume imbalance is showing just, it's just a calculation of the volume here. Who's, who's the aggressor? Who's winning out overall? Okay. And you can see it's flat right now. Okay. And we're going sideways.  Okay. Now it's important to note that both book imbalance and volume imbalance work for the chart range. Okay. So if I zoom in, I'm going to now have a new calculation here. And we can see it's plus three. All right. If I zoom in more, now it's negative 11. Okay. Because we see the selling that's just come in. All right. So if you want to study a specific range of that volume, you can zoom out and just put that range in your, in your, in your view. Or you can click on the hand tool. Okay. And we can use the center mouse wheel to scroll in and put that range within our historical view here. And we can see that there was a little difference in the selling here. Okay. Okay. Buyers are still, now we've got a little, a little more information here now. Okay. From the, the open swing low here, we have our trend line. We also have our flip of the book here. Okay. Now we want to read what the, what the book is telling us here in these areas. And they're, they're on both sides right now. And we're, we're between like a, you know, here come the sellers. Okay. And the buyers are pulling here, but you know, I still think you're going to find buyers here. I think that you might see a little bit of spoofing type of action. And what do I mean by that? Well, it could be something similar to this right here. Okay. Showing very, very high liquidity, very quickly, but then they jump out of the book as price approaches them. Okay. So do they really have the intent to trade? Like these guys down here? No, they didn't. We can, this is why we're answering that second question. Right. So we're, we're starting to get a feel for this right now. All right. Starting to get a feel for the intent of these traders at these levels. Right. They wanted to trade here and they did. Okay. These guys here, they pulled their liquidity. Right. It was wide open for the, for the buyers. Okay. But look at the, the volume that traded up in this little area up here. Okay. Very, very little. Okay. So these are points of exhaustion where the market doesn't find anyone that, that wants to trade at this, at this area here at 66 and a half. And we fall back down into our, our higher volume node. All right. All right. So yeah, now it's getting interesting here. I think let's see if we, let's see if we get some of that spoofing type of action again here. Right. I'd like to see that. I'd like to see them get very aggressive here. I'd like to see these guys pull, but maybe we see then a lot of icebergs go off down, down below 65 here and we reject out of this area and the buyers come back in and then we, we advance again to the upside. Okay. That's a possible scenario. Right. We'll just look at the order flow here and it'll give us insight to what's going on. Okay. Or maybe they'll just get really aggressive here. Another possible scenario. They will, they'll stay in the book like they did before. And, you know, they'll get filled and maybe we'll continue on up to the upside. Now, let's read this though and read the intent here, how this is a little more bearish here. They're providing liquidity at lower levels here than, up than before here. Okay. So this was just, you know, 12 minutes ago. Right. So you can see that they, they got filled in these areas here. Now we're, we're a ticker too lower and now they're getting filled down in these areas here. Okay. This is, this is again, they're getting filled. Right. So let's see if the aggressive buyers come in now. All right. I'm sorry, I kind of deviated from the book and balance but you understand the volume and balance. The, the book and balance is the same thing, except it's not about volume at all. It's about the liquidity. Okay. And it also works on the chart range. Okay. Now there's some settings for it. You'll find all the add on settings under here, under the configuration button or studies configuration and here's your volume and balance and here's your order book and balance. Okay. So you can limit the levels to calculate in the book. Okay. And you can also have them weighted a specific way. Okay. So I'm not going to get into those settings right now. Take a little, little bit of a discussion. Okay. I've got a few more questions here and then we'll wrap it up. Let's see. Yeah. Benjamin, you'll need to let me know about your, your data provider. Who's it, who are you getting your data from? Okay. You only see four icebergs. And let's see, you have two different data platforms, dividing data between two different platforms for the same provider. No, that should be fine. That shouldn't be an issue. Rhythmic. Okay. Yeah. No, like I said, you're just going to, you're just going to see different, you're going to get, I mean, this is, this is, let me show you why this is so specific and why it matters. Okay. So, yeah, we got kind of a, a little bit of a, like I said, this was a little more bearish here. So I think we, we might see the sellers come back in. But if we look in here, we can see that buyers are now starting to, to jump back in and they're taking it to the top of the range here. Now we need to get up above, if we want to continue, because we are in this, a slight downtrend here. Right. We need to, we need to get above some of these swings. Okay. We need to get up into some of these areas up here where they're providing high liquidity. Right. And here's our spike below the, the trend line. Okay. We're looking at that. Okay. We've seen them get filled below the trend line as well. Okay. So, yeah, I'm, I'm still looking for, you know, these areas up here to get tested. And then I want to see if we start to accept and maybe we get a flip of the book up in these areas up here. All right. So that's what I'm looking for. And that's just, you know, there's a few other scenarios that might unfold. It's Monday. We might just, you know, channel back and forth here for a while, but just reading the book and putting together some very simple pieces. I'm looking for some of this higher liquidity to get tested. All right. Let's see.  So I want to zoom in here and I want to show this. Okay. So you're going to see as you start to zoom in how book map is, we're starting to break apart all of this trading activity. Okay. So note this little area here. Okay. There was a flurry of activity. It was too much to show in this little area here, even with this zoom, zoomed into like 10 seconds here, there's so much trading in here that I can't show you each individual dot. So we've given you the overall delta of it and we can see there's majority of it's buying. Okay. If I hover over that area and I zoom in further, now we're starting to see what happens. Okay. Now I'm zoomed into the millisecond level. Okay. And I can see it unfolds here. What exactly happened? Okay. We see our sellers come in first. We have a little bit of a pause and then they started to lift the offer here. You can see a little flurry or cluster here followed by another round right afterwards and then a few larger trades after that as well. Okay. All right. And so, you know, when we start to zoom into these areas here, okay, we can zoom in and continue to zoom in. Right. Down to these millisecond or microsecond levels or nanosecond levels and see every single event that took place. Right. So, that's why I say it really matters. Bookmap just, we display the data as it comes in through from the provider. Okay. How it hits the book at what time there might be, you know, some sort of lag or, you know, something that might be a little different between different machines and therefore, you know, you might get a slightly different reading on your, on some of your add-ons. Okay. So, we're getting very specific here. All right. So, that's what I wanted to show. Okay. And also, it's a good demo to also show in display, like how, even though we don't trade at these levels at these millisecond levels, but we can, bookmap is still, it's recording all the data, but it's making it still very, very effective visually as you zoom out and you can understand what kind of occurred at some of these areas here. All right. Pablo, yeah, how can there be a red dot on the ask? Well, that's part of the lag, right? The bid and the offer that data comes in a bit differently than the traded volume. Okay. They come in in separate data feeds. All right. That's in, it's in the download as well. Let me show it to you.  I've been going for way too long here. Let's see the, let me show you the HFT guide. All right. So, I mentioned earlier. And I'm going to go down to the bottom here. Okay. Here we go. On page 24. Okay. This is how HFT data is disseminated. Okay. Here's the exchange. Here's you as a trader. Okay. Here's your quotes data that comes only one directional, one direction here from via UDP and FIX. Okay. That's your quotes data. Okay. That's your bid and your ask. All right. As well as your depth. And the trade data, though, that comes in in its two ways. Right. And it's via TCPIP and FIX. All right. Okay. All right. Well, we did, we did, we did get a test up into this area here just shy of this high liquidity here. And we get another rotation down again. All right. Okay. So, not too decisive at all. All right. So there's this downtrend is still continuing here to the downside. All right. Okay. Homaira. Rhythmic in NT7. Yeah. Absolutely. Bookmap will work with that. And no, no problem. Yep. Okay. All right, guys. Well, there's and we've gone through some of the order flow. Structure here. Understanding that, you know, some of these areas of, you know, that, that book flip, that, that high liquidity. And, is it, are they offering it higher or lower? Okay. That, that area that we were just, we were covering here, for example, you know, they're getting filled in these areas here. Right. And then, and then you can see that they want to provide liquidity a little bit lower. Okay. And that's, that's bearish. Right. They, they're not, they're not as aggressive as they were before. Okay. They're looking for a better price. Right. I'm surprised. I, I thought we would have gotten a spike a little bit higher here, maybe up into 67, but, nope. Yeah. That, that'd be good. Oh my right. Just, yeah, let us know. Absolutely. Give it a shot. See, and the let us know how it goes. Okay. Okay. All right. Learning, learning the order flow. Again, I would encourage you to watch those video snippets. Those are here under the education tab. Okay. Right, right here. Watch as many of those as you can. And use the replay mode. You can record your data here. And use that replay mode and continue to to watch again and again. Right. That's how I learned order flow in book map and started, you know, to put the pieces together and get the insight at these specific areas. All right. Okay. All right, guys. Well, if you want to give it a try, you can give it a 14-day trial period here and you can see the pricing information as well. Okay. Yeah. Thanks for coming tomorrow. Bye.


Yeah, good morning Steve. Well, just a minute. I just got my earphones in I didn't hear what you said Is it just you and oh no, I see six more Yep, I was just saying good morning. All right Good morning folks. It's a to two. Let's get it one more minute and we'll get going. Hey Quinn.  I am. Hello. Good morning. Good morning. Yeah, I didn't didn't ask you ahead of time but I I threw you on the agenda to just Welcome you to the SWG officially and maybe give you a second to chat about your new roles in TOC and Where you're gonna do this SWG? Oh? Yeah, sure. I can do that. Is that fair? Yeah Looks like we've got about 14 15 people. I think we usually have about 20, but let's kick it off this morning I've I think we've got a pretty light agenda the the plan for today was Kind of one key thing which was just reviewing with the group the slides that we put together and the plan for our QCon EU next week and We do have open space here today for other topics that folks wanted to cover And we didn't get a presenter to talk about a project for this week But you know if you wanted to chat about something feel free to go to the agenda and add your topics there You can fill in the end of the time or we can cut it short today The the first thing that we did that I threw on the agenda was Wanted to get Quentin to kind of speak a little bit about his new role as a TOC member at the CNCF And talk a little bit about you know, what he wants to do here within the SWG So let me kick it over you Quentin Thank you Yeah, so some of you may or may not be aware I was Asked to join the TOC a couple of weeks ago now, which I accepted and One of the things they have asked me to do is help you guys get some clarity on what the TOC would like out of this group Understand that historically that's been a little challenging. It's been not entirely clear what the TOC wanted you guys to do and I'm very new into all of this stuff. So please do Feel free to disagree or correct me along the way if any of the impressions I've gathered are not accurate or different from with the impressions in this group So yeah, my my thinking and this is still pretty formative is to just put a proposal together as to what I think would be both useful and I think ideally relatively Uncontentious initially just to get a get some groundwork laid That we can then build on top of and I understand there are some more contentious areas like recommending storage approaches for cloud native, etc. Which understandably there are many different individuals and companies with ideas about that and Understand that some of those have created some stumbling blocks along the way for you guys so I'm here to help and I have a draft proposal of what I think might be both useful and relatively Uncontentious to start with and I'm hoping that that can lay the groundwork to build on to some of the more ambitious goals Cool. Okay. Anybody have any questions or comments for Quinn? I actually have a request I'm not that familiar with the people in this group. I know some of you but not all of you would it be Too much to ask for to do a quick ground table and have a quick intro of the sort of active members of the group Yeah, that's great Alex you want to kick it off? Sure, so Met yesterday, but yeah, so so my name is Alex Kirchhoff and I'm one of the founders in the C3R of StorageRS And we're building storage systems for Kubernetes and containerized environments Cool, and are these mostly software defined storage? It's it's all sort of fun storage.  Yeah, I'm already on Congerloo. I work for NetApp and I deal with NetApp's integration with Kubernetes called trident And I continue working on that. Thank you How about a Blaine Gardner? Hi, this is actually the first CNCF storage group meeting I've been able to attend In person I work for Sousa on their stuff product and I've been getting involved with Rook and I guess as Besson would say trying to make Rook awesome Cool How about Brad from Red Hat? Yep. Hey, I'm Brad. I work at Red Hat with the container storage team We do quite a bit of work upstream and Kubernetes with container storage enablement And then also on OpenShift Caleb, all of your general dynamics. I'm just new to the group looking to learn Excellent David Hey, David Von Thenen work for VMware work a lot around the CNCF ecosystem with Kind of like the the hosted projects within the CNCF. So yep Sorry, I missed your last name there, David Von Thenen Okay, gotcha. Yep Uh Deep you deep. I think you unmuted and unmuted. It's okay. If you don't want to introduce yourself. It's all good Sorry about that. Yeah Yep Okay, this is deep Debrae. I work for Docker and the software engineer there and kind of focusing on some of the storage areas We're cool. Thank you John Strunk Um, hey, I'm John Strunk. I work for Red Hat on Gloucester Matt Smith Hi So I work for Dayterra, which is a startup in elastic block storage I mostly do open-stack development, but also a bit of Kubernetes and Docker Thanks Matt, Saad Hey, I'm Saad Tech lead of Kubernetes Storage here at Google Thank you, Saad. Mr. Wong Uh Steve Wong, I've been active in storage on Meizos and Kubernetes for almost three years now But I've recently moved into a general role at VMware that Encompasses the cloud provider which would include storage networking compute and other aspects Thank you Steve T Paul Yes, I'm T. Paul Lee. I I work with a few people on the Iskazi target library in the cloud space and We are working to add CS CSI to the front end and then we wrapping up the back end with a few back backend storages and In progress is we are doing the gateway portal the protocol gateway for Iskazi and we have We are interested in seeing what this group is doing. Thank you And what company are you with T. Paul? Oh? We are not associated with any company put okay independent. Thank you. It's purely open source Shane I work for Huawei on the open SDS project, which is open source project on links foundation I am currently working with the team she from Google and also other folks Six storage to add a snapshot support to your CSI and also over the support entry in communities Thank you Shane And I'm Clint I lead a team at VMware, which does our upstream contributions to Kubernetes and cloud native oriented projects Founder of the the rex rate project Cool. Thanks very much for indulging me Please we'll to know where everyone's coming from and what their interests are I Interest myself. Oh My name is Luis Pavon and I work for a startup a story starter called port words. We do container I Storage Where we can deploy with a Kubernetes system? I Participate in CSC FTO stores take a group here. I participated upstream with sad engine on Kubernetes CSI I am CSI products Cool Louis some of that was cutting out But did you capture that Quinn these from port works? I did. Thank you. Yeah, okay Excellent. Thanks, Luis. Oh, sorry about that. Okay. Thank you. We got anything. Are there any active contributors here? Active contributors that are generally considered part of the kind of core team here who are not present today Um It's to attend these right? Yeah, Ben Hinman tends to attend them I Think that Steve Watt tends to be one of our more vocal people that aren't all on the call today Steve is from red hat Yeah, nice deep low. Yeah Eric four jet. He was on some of our planning calls For the cube concession he tends to be on I'm just kind of like grooming Yep Yeah, Bussam I know well is Mike Rubin involved here much Now we haven't seen Mike pop on here. It's an odd hour for him. So but he stays in touch through me. Okay Can I tell you can he would be another one Here in MOBA from open EBS Let's jump on Yeah, I think that captures it pretty well though. I'd say there's about you know 15 to 20 15 are so decently active and then you know 20 or so more that it's regularly attend. Yep Thank you. That gives me a good background. Yeah. All right And we have any other intros or comments or anything? No, okay? I think that that probably goes, you know Quinton's intro goes pretty well into the next thing that we had on the agenda which is talking about the advanced session at cube con What we what we said talked about on this call was trying to get a someone from the TOC to come and chat with us We can have a nice round table discussing, you know, the future of the SWP and TLC wanted from us think Quinton's already gotten back some of that information because he's been working with them to You know agree on that But we are gonna have Alexis Richardson who's gonna come join us at the conference during our advanced session So we'll have, you know, not only Quinton as a TOC member, but also Alexis He's been there a long time giving us some more Guidance on what we're thinking about and I think that that's a pretty good time to come and you know pepper them with with questions And that's that's pretty much what I wanted to say for the advanced session anybody have any Comments or questions about it? Cool. Anything from you on that Quinton? Say again anything from you on the the advanced session or I have Some writing here, which is a proposal. I've sort of passed it past some of you I think I guess some of the previous meetings I've been to have not included everyone I don't know if those were like a splinter group specifically for the presentation or whether I missed something But yeah, I floated the idea of what I think a useful first step would be And it seemed to be reasonably well received So I've actually passed that by the TOC and that's been well received there, too So I can put that down here in writing somewhere now if someone can tell me where to put it It's just cut and paste out of an email. So I'll have to clean that but at least we can all put it in front of us and and Decide whether we think it's a good idea. I put a link to the the meeting notes in the chat That's probably the okay Okay, so the tech that the formatting is not great, but hopefully we can read that is anyone presenting the notes on this call Maybe we want to do that thing, okay, sorry about the dodgy formatting But hopefully we can clean it up into something useful And some of this overlaps with what you've done in the past and some of it is based on my Take on so I went through all the material that you guys had produced Over time and spoke to a few of you in a couple of the previous meetings and spoke to the TOC And as you're aware, I think some of them spoke to some of you guys as well and got some Feedback and so this is kind of an attempt to distill all of that wisdom Into a what I hope is a an achievable set of goals That will be useful to the group and to the CNCF in general And which would be considered, you know An interesting thing to produce by you guys, which is you know equally important So maybe everyone wants to just take a minute to read through that blue text there quickly and and then we can Open it to comments or questions or Whatever Yeah, that's much better I think this looks really good. Quintzen. Thank you excellent So just to be clear about the non goals. So these are not Non goals forever. They're just non goals for what I would term we can call this phase one So phase one we tackle the goals and we explicitly don't tackle the non goals Um, and then at the end of phase one We decide what the goals for next for the next phase are and maybe those include what are currently labeled as non goals So maybe actually we should Make that explicit and say non goals for phase one just so that nobody gets confused Because ultimately I do think we need to Come up with some kind of idea that that in a cloud native environment, uh, you know, these things work well Or have more More pros than cons and these other things tend not to work well And I think most of us have intuition as to what those groups look like But until I think we have a common understanding of what's actually done in in cloud native environments at the moment And what all the terminology means and how it relates to each other I think it's difficult to have the discussions that are required in the non goals section And my take on some of the stumbling blocks up to now have been that We maybe tackled what are listed as non goals Before we had a common understanding of the stuff listed under goals yet so Does anybody have questions comments disagreements? I realized there's a pretty substantial departure. So there was A group within this group that favored focusing on on I think the simpler aspects volumes And just focusing on that There was another group that thought the scope should be broader than that Um, and my personal opinion is that there's this overlap between any one of these things and any other one Such that it's actually quite difficult to Start with the leaves of the tree and describe them in detail without, you know, knowing what the tree looks like yet um So my proposal was to to take a wider scope obviously, you know, one has to limited one can't go into Excruciating detail on all these areas up front because you'll end up with a 500 page document that nobody will read But what I have in mind and I don't know if any of you have read the serverless working groups, uh, white paper that they published a few months ago Um, and they they took on a similar Goal within serverless Um, and that was quite successful So I would actually recommend I can try and pull out the link now Stick it in there. But but I think that provides a pretty good um example of a similar exercise done in a different domain that was very well listened and Fairly uncontentious, I believe Nick when my I guess a couple things here One is Is this broadening to to all things storage has that been kind of ratified by the to see that that's what they want us to do at this point um they I've circulated it to them and um You know, I haven't got a positive act from every single one of them But all the ones I've got feedback from gave me an hack um, and so I I haven't seen any Uh objections to that yet Okay and on the You know the depth, but I think that you know, we're kind of defining this as trying to go wide to be comprehensive for storage Uh, and I think I agree with you there What I'm concerned with is the the depth like If we create a white paper. Well, if we look at the serverless white paper A lot of that territory was Was new I feel And so it made for interesting reading along the way because you're not covering things that have been You know solidified over the last 30 years of tech Yeah And in this case we're talking about storage like the fundamentals of it I think that whether it's block storage key values databases like you know A lot of that stuff's been covered in a bunch of different places And so what I what I'd be worried about is is creating the that Much of What's already out there or what you know tries to clarify too much of what's already on paper in other places Like a history book. Yeah. Yeah, and I think it's fine to you know, provide links to that material where it exists and where we think that we don't want to duplicate it um But I and I think even within all of these like buzzwords that I mentioned here block stores key value stores, etc I mean, I think there are a couple of different dimensions to all of those Um, there's distributed versus non-distributed Um, there's you know, various different permutations and some of those are relatively recent um, and then they're also, you know the Different variants that exist out there today are sometimes built in different ways Some things are built on top of Local block stores some things are built on top of distributed block stores Some things are built on top of distributed file systems And they're things like fuse and there are a lot of way places where the sort of classic Layering of a storage system is not adhered to anymore for sometimes good reasons So I think just clarifying all of that stuff And maybe I didn't make it clear here that that I think there's quite a lot in each one of those areas In terms of as I say distributed versus non-distributed enterprise versus Commodity hardware, you know, all of these different dimensions where It would be worth at least having a paragraph or two on each of these saying this is a this is a thing It it has these this is why people do it because it has these strengths It has these drawbacks. This is, you know, how people mitigate some of those drawbacks, etc And just go through the list like that just to explain why all these things exist and and uh, and how they relate to each other Yeah, I think the the challenge with that, you know being technologist is just being and involved in this tech So deeply and passionate just being objective as you're going through those Different bits and pieces and how they work together and they're making the judgments or at least being clear about it Yeah, yeah, and I'm sure there'll be some debate and that's why I proposed that we focus on on stuff that actually exists and stuff that is in use And and if there's any kind of debate as to how this should be or whether this is better or not It it boils down to well, you know, who's doing this like Show us a case where this is done and if there is a case where this is done Then let's say this this is done in this case And ideally give, you know, some reasons why whoever did it that way did it that way Yeah, I think the real value comes out of perhaps standardizing interfaces to these classes of storage or stateful services And once you go get into implementation details Those could be endless and I'm out to vendor sales pitches and things and it's potentially really treacherous to Do that deep dive into these? I mean I wouldn't be against Having occasional sessions and presentations for those interested But kind of cross industry discussions going into deep dives of particular implementations just sounds like, you know Mine can beat up yours or something and I don't know how We definitely want to avoid that. I agree and just just to kind of Clarifying everyone's minds what I have here. Maybe we should put it explicitly so that the serverless document I believe is in the region of 30 pages long And so, you know, I can imagine if you take let's say there are sort of 10 key Concepts across all of these things. We're talking about A couple of pages about block stores and a couple of pages about key value stores and I And and it's by no means going to be exhaustive And it's by no means going to be a deep dive into all the possible implementations of these things But it is hopefully going to clarify the terminology And clarify, you know, to whatever extent one can do in in that amount of space how these things tie together Yeah, I think an attempt to Identify the commonality so that we could attempt to standardize an air face or maybe Discover that we can't standardize because you also have to allow particular implementations to Differentiate themselves or you know expose unique features And I think that's that's useful information to say that there is a standard called x And many vendors extend the standard, you know, right to differentiate themselves and Common extensions include, you know, blah blah blah snapshots or whatever it happens to be um Yes, I agree I'll dig out that link to the serverless paper that everybody wants and I'm having some Operator problems here. Hold on one second Do you want to say something else? No, I was just going to say I mean we You know just just when we tried to discuss this before I think there were a variety of different things we we wanted to cover, but There are probably Architectural issues, you know, like Centralized versus distributed and those sort of things There's there's a bunch of differentiators around um Sort of Delta plane and the actual data part, you know, is it it's a block device Is it an object store? Is it accessible over any pi is it accessible via a system interface? Is it is it a A local file systems is the short file systems with the distributed file system those sorts of things um and then there are the the The controlling type stuff and that's where we come to the interfaces and and how We get integration um to The orchestrators and things like CSI and those sorts of things um and we may We may also want to Discuss about how it's how the different solutions or how the different options um are Provided so perhaps, you know Differency between, you know software options and hardware options um and cloud options And versus on premise options, for example um, and also whether the solution can be Managed by an orchestrator. So, you know, the more and more there are lots of solutions, you know, like crook, for example Where it's a software solution and it's being deployed and managed by an orchestrator Um, and that that's probably pointing out to sort of but I think if we covered those those those areas, maybe Maybe we need to kind of split up the topics and and get a couple of people to consecutive sections or something Yeah, I feel like the I mean you just went through a lot of stuff and I think you know some of that is what we've been talking about along the way and you know, I feel like one of the most important things that we need to do when we start is that we Narrow down the scope and we figure out like who is the actual audience and and how deep is going to go because From a cloud native perspective You know if I'm just looking at the public clouds, right? They provide all these different data services Yet I have no idea how they're operated and maybe I shouldn't care Uh, I have no idea, you know, they they tell me what the availability is But I really don't know the details of how that happens behind the scenes and maybe that's just enough information You know from that consumer's perspective, they've got a service And it provides this certain functionality to support its application And that may be the level of information they care about You know, if you're lower down in the stack and you're thinking about running these data services yourselves in your own cloud Then you may have different concerns about you know, what to consider and how to actually build and operate these things so it's like Just different audiences and I think capturing both in one white paper is going to be difficult So at least we don't know who that audience is for this white paper will be important I mean if we if we stick to to, um Sort of three main Categories of information done one is the control plane. How are you going to request an interface and you know orchestrates the storage and then the second part being the data plane, which is how you access it And you can access it via block and file and object and various other things and databases and key value stores and whatever else um And then the third bit is You know where it's available. So is it is it on premise? Is it in In the cloud, is it a cloud or only offering? Is it software? Is it hard or whatever? And and if we stick to those those are probably less contentious and then you know, if we want to go any further We can talk about we can talk about a fourth category, which is architectures and stuff like that, you know and have the Have the pros and cons of centralized versus decentralized versus distributed and whatever else and you know talk about um Latency and access models and things like that but that could easily be like a phase two thing But if we if we talk if we talk about those those top three So how you interface and the control plane how you get to the data and the data plane and How the how the storage solution is made available whether it's you know software hardware on premise or cloud service That sounds like a like a very good starting point to me and I mean, I can imagine we may want to add to that so I mentioned in One of the the last item on the goals there is to compare and contrast To take take a fundamental set of properties of storage availability scalability consistency durability performance And without referring to you know specific implementations But certain certain approaches are fundamentally You know higher performance and lower availability for example or Less scalable but more consistent or whatever the case may be um That I think that could be a subsequent step. I I think what you sketched out as a first Bunch of steps is is a very good one and we we may call it a day at that point and say we reduced the scope of phase one And we reduced something useful and we left out, you know goals Three and four or whatever that case may be and we're going to tackle those as phase two Sounds like plan Yep, so it sounds like uh after hugon will we'll kick off I mean, what do you think when do you think we want to make the The biweekly call the the working group for the the white paper or or do we want to you know set up a separate working group? I'm I'm open to suggestions. I mean in my mind I've got that this is maybe a like a three month exercise But you know if you guys think differently, uh, let me know um And what I have in my mind is is maybe a small number of what we'll just call them primary authors the Let's say two next to throttle to make sure that this document gets done in three months. Um, and they would be Uh, kind of responsible for putting the framework together. So let's decide what The first step is in the next three weeks. We're going to try and define, you know, the following terms Uh, and we're going to put them in the document And we're going to review them and you know come to conclusion and then we're going to You know carry on from there and then as many and and maybe maybe A step in the process is to break it up once we've you know taken a first pass at what the Structure of the information looks like we perhaps carve it up and say right this block store expert goes and writes two pages on block stores and explains to us, you know pros cons, uh, whatever whatever we decide is important there And they can fill in all the meat there and then bring it back to the to the main doc for inclusion and, uh, review Does that does that sound like a reasonable approach? Mm-hmm Yep, and this does sort of three months to produce a 30 page document I mean it might be a little optimistic given people's time availability and kubecon in between but uh, let's say we're We start in may may june like end of july Does that sound To target for possibly the next kubecon Um, I think that might be six months as like A little bit further out But that seems like the next big event that they would probably want to make sure that they have something by Yeah, I mean perhaps a draft In three months where this group at least is you know fairly comfortable and maybe working through the final comments and then You know send it to the toc and have it actually published officially and ratified by the following kubecon That sounds reasonable to me How about a comment from anyone else on the call? You know how we use the the swg time in the in the next few months Um, because we've been doing presentations from the community about different storage related projects and I've I've enjoyed that But if if others want to divert the time and just make it all about working on the paper That's also an option too How does anyone how does everyone feel about you know the time spent in the swg? for the next few months I think considering the goal of this group is now going to be focused on getting this white paper out It would be useful to use this time to review Uh portions of the paper as they come in Um, make sure there's agreement discussion that kind of thing Okay, do you still want to see presentations from the community about other things as well? Like a combined agenda or just strictly white paperwork? Probably next to yeah, sorry go ahead. I would love to see presentations from the community Especially if you are covering A broad spectrum of data storage solutions Um, assuming the main purpose of the white paper is education, you know I think we can really talk about these technologies in a very abstract way not referring to specific solutions I think what the rail was last time was uh I got quite contentious was basically Turning the white paper into a cloud native landscape where we have logos and For different vendors and solutions and try to say why one is better than the other I think we should probably avoid that as much as possible focus mostly on technology And even there it can be quite contentious and somebody if you prescribe Let's say if you have to use a distributed file system instead of key value store or some other solution or no sequel so as Versus sequel or you know, so we have to be quite careful about How we navigate this document I agree, but you know, I think what quinton clarified for us is that we're not about reducing scope or saying what is or what isn't that native where we're describing, you know, the terminology and um, the different categories of interfaces and the different categories of, you know accessing your faith and that sort of thing and I think That should be Not contentious because it is a list of stuff, right? So it's not it's not this is better than that the other thing Yeah, I'm fine with that but Yeah, as long as it's not turning into a cloud native landscape where we have logos of different products and solutions. I think This is a very valuable effort Yeah Um I just want to had a quick question. So have you guys been meeting once a month or more frequently than that's up to now? bi-weekly Okay, so every two weeks So I guess one one approach might be to have a monthly presentation and the intermediate bi-weekly meetings being work on this document Just a thought Or you could split each meeting in half and have you know one presentation and some work on the doc Anybody feel strongly one way or another on that one No, that seems reasonable to me Yeah What I would suggest just based on previous experience is that the actual work on the doc happened Not in those scheduled meetings because otherwise you probably won't get anywhere but you know People need to go out and this is sort of these primary authors that I mentioned There's there's background work, you know I think it's usually better to write these kind of documents in a quiet place when you can think clearly and Put some thoughts on paper um And then you know bring that back to the group for review So As a high-level target, um, I'm unsure what the next When the next working group meeting is but should we maybe Try to have Like a very high-level table of contents which we can discuss And then we can maybe pick a couple of authors Um, or or you know people can self-limit themselves for different areas to to work together on actually fleshing out the sections I I mean we do have kubecon next week And so the the next meeting we have will be the the following week after kubecon um, I don't know if that'll be a little ambitious to To try to get everyone to sign up and start coordinating schedules with that big trip in the middle of it Um, I'm all for it. That's what you guys want to do But I think realistically like there's probably gonna be more participants if we start kicking this off after After kubecon Yeah, that's probably fair. Yeah, I agree one approach might be to um For anyone who's interested in being the primary author to go off and produce a Kind of wireframe of what they think the outline of the document might look like um, and Perhaps have more than two weeks time um And then we can look at those things and you know, maybe and this is just a brainstorm You know don't put a name on them. Just put them in front of people and say, you know, here's the four wireframes we've received Uh, which one do we think we we would like to align ourselves behind? And uh at that that person becomes the primary author and then we flesh out that that one further. Does that make sense? Cool, yeah So your proposal there is to just you know, if you want to be a primary author on this or involved as an author to Warframe up and then, you know, bring it bring it back to the group and we'll see which one is the right structure And go from there Exactly and and you know, hopefully it won't be terribly contentious and I'm sure some of them will look similar Assuming that people have kind of digested what I put on writing here and hopefully I haven't left out too much But you know, ultimately something in the region of a 30 page document. Have a look at the serverless White paper if you want to get a flavor of the level of detail and the kinds of headings and things um and then With a bit of luck we'll end up with a few of those that look not too different from each other I mean if they do look very different and we have two camps of people who Line up behind very different documents. We will and I have to resolve that but hopefully I would assume that is unlikely to happen If this blue text in front of us is is I mean it seems to be reasonably well received by this group, so Sounds good to me. Yep Do you have any further comments about that? No, that sounds like Self-nominating I'll put a wireframe together Hopefully there'll be a few others that we can compare I guess Okay Great stuff. Okay. Um, so let's move on to the next thing on the agenda here I put links into the the agenda under the kubecton EU under the intro session so we did have that subgroup that that formed and You know, thank you for alex for actually putting together the slides that we now have There's the first link is the meeting notes where we just captured some of the ideas And then the second is the actual slides that we're going to be using for the the kubecton intro session today one wanna like is the group interested in in Seeing these slides or chatting about them Or alex, did you want to run through them? What do you guys think? Is there anything left to be decided for the session? I had to cut out a little earlier the last meeting so I didn't I didn't hear the conclusion too I think the main thing that needs to be decided is who's actually All the panel and who's actually going to be there Unfortunately, um, something's come up and I'm actually be able to travel next week. So Um, I'm going to be able to to to present this or or be able to unfortunately But we need we need some volunteers to actually be able to go through this Okay I will definitely volunteer to to deliver any portion of this that's that we need Who else is going to be there who wants to play a part in the session? I'll be there Okay, it's love Anybody else interested? Yeah, I'll be there as well All right, hard to learn Okay, anybody else Could you could you write your your names and the on the Yep second slide So it sounds like me sod and art along Yeah, I might be tentative. I'm going to have to look at my schedule for possible conflicts. So not a hundred percent sure yet I'm happy to help out if you guys want me or Sitting the sidelines either way. I'm happy. I will be at cube conure This is quentin. Sorry. Yep Okay All right, so maybe the so it sounds like we got, you know, three to four, you know folks that they can play a part in the session Do you guys want to Sink up later this week separately or do we want to spend the next 10 minutes and just Kind of nail down, you know, what pieces of this presentation that That we can do or what you guys want to do here Might as well use this time Okay Anybody else have any any objections to that? Is there anything else that you guys wanted to cover for the rest of the day? All right, so let's use the rest of the time for for finishing off this deck and making sure we're clear on On what we're going to do I know that uh So art along and sod you guys were both on the um the planning calls steve. I don't think that you were um What is there any portion of this deck that uh That are on that you're more comfortable with or sod and that you're more comfortable with that you wanted to cover I can probably do the introduction of what the storage group is and Maybe the next couple of slides Why storage is critical and uh What the goal of the cncf for storage is and what this group is about I don't know maybe a couple of those slides Okay Okay, so we go from a the section of hey, what is what is storage? What's what's a working group? and then we go straight to uh projects and architecture And then there's patterns um Art along that it sounds like sod maybe like slides what like three to To six are kind of grouped together Yeah Does that sound right? Yeah No, that sounds good to me excuse me And the patterns Okay, so slide that's uh eight to What eight to ten Patterns are 10 to 12, but I'll be happy to un-flexible. I can't cover that. Yeah, that's fine If you want to do 10 to 12, that's that's eight and k and then that leaves me covering Uh seven eight and nine Sounds good. Let me just put So actually I'm thinking it doesn't make sense to have multiple presenters or Do just one presenter and then have a panel for q&a I find that when you try to break it up into multiple presenters It kind of just gets a little messy and especially if you're switching back and forth I'd be happy letting you do the present the full presentation if you're okay with it clint Same here Or I'm I can volunteer Don't want to put you on the spot. I love consensus I actually agree with you sad I mean, I think two presenters maybe with this one split in the middle is kind of doable But but four and jumping backwards and forwards gets uh tricky. So yeah, I would If you just want to sign me up, I'll do it if you want to split that's fine with me too. So whatever the group thinks I'd like to sign you up All right, it's does everybody okay with that or does anyone else want to sign up to do it? Happy me I think I think that's a puzzle for folks in your prison things Okay, so I'll I'll make sure that I uh, I'm prepared to do this. So I'll deliver it and then in terms of the panel Yeah, we could put that at the end and just say here are some folks who've been involved with the group And you know happy to answer any kind of questions. Okay Now I I haven't been involved up to now, but this is the session listed as storage working group intro Yes, we're talking about Okay, so I just opened it on the cuba con schedule agenda And maybe we have to get in touch and reform this then because it it lists more or less a panel of Ben clinton and uh quinton right now I'll uh, I'll have this as my action. I'll reach out to them and update the the description And we'll make sure that you know, it's clear what what people are going to see in the session and who's going to be in that Quinn do you want to be on the panel for this? Uh, I'm happy to um, yeah, I mean, let's figure that out in the next couple of days I'll speak to ben. I mean whether he wants both of us there or one of us there It seems like at least one of us one of the two of us should be there To kind of create the right optics And um, and yeah, as you say we can update the agenda those those things were put together months ago. I think so There's no shame in changing them. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, the other thing it indicates is intro skill level so Probably assume we get users who have never heard of this or the topic Yep All right, sounds good anything else uh Any other comments about the deck? Nope All right. I think uh in terms of the agenda. I think that we're we're done Any other questions that people wanted to throw in here last minute All right, well, thank you everyone for joining today. Uh, looking forward to seeing everybody out at uh, at a kubecon And uh, you got about seven minutes back in your day. Okay. Bye. Take care Thanks guys. See you guys everyone