the network service mesh, the dashboard, that would be helpful. We'll start there. Let's see where's the link for it was on here. Let me just go to GitHub. Yeah, that's how I always find it. If you go to GitHub, then click on Project. Yeah, and so we have a document added on using CNI with Minicube that's been merged in. And we also have added a note for usage on dependabot. So those are the two items that were added in. So if anyone wants to take a look at those two pieces of documentation and see if they're clear and meet and or if there's any questions about how this works, those are the places to find it. So in terms of things that have been working on, we have a set of guidelines that has been written by a person who goes by the nickname Dune Hammer. And can someone remind me whose name is attached to Dune Hammer? That's me. It's John. All right. So John's been working on a set of guidelines for extending network service mesh. So we'll discuss more in detail about that. But there is a document that needs review. So we'll definitely. We've heard of this here. We've moved on to following the action item list to go through the action item review. Yes. Cool. Tom, could you click on the action item review tracking link? Oh, yeah. OK. And that is where I'm really slow today. I don't worry. Not enough coffee. There we go. Right there. Oops. Oh, there it is. Yep, that's it. So we have these guidelines that have been sent in. So we're going to take a look at it on our particular side. But if someone who's not as familiar with how to extend out network service mesh, we'd really appreciate if someone can take a look at it and see if you can make sense of it. That way that we can make this approachable for newcomers as well. So one of the comments from Kyle was whether to be internet or tree. That's the thing I added to the agenda. So I created, based on Kyle's sort of thoughts, I created out of tree template with a script. They'll basically create a complete tree with make files now using Serge's simple data plane as a kind of a template. It's not quite all there. I think I need a few more things. But it's one way of doing it. And it seems to kind of work. I think I've got a few bugs still to get out of it. But I can create different data planes. And all you need to do is really edit the photo file and the go file to get most of it working. What's really missing is some sample endpoints and how to, once you have a data plane, how to send traffic over the data plane. So a little more examples around that would help. Ping. Ha! I'm terrified. I was thinking about a YAML file, Tom. That's right. Ha! You can send YAML files over a data plane, too. No problem. I think you have a YAML file to create different points and then connect them up. So to show a full end to end sample of something saying, I want to use NSM to talk between these two endpoints. How would I do that? Yeah, that is good. Because I was trying to figure out, this should be easy, you know? And in theory, it is. But yeah, that would be incredibly useful. Yeah, and these kind of exercises and discussions, they help out a lot because from a high-level conceptual view, like, we can try to make a simple architecture. But we know that there's a lot of detail that can get down when you're trying to actually implement it. And so one thing that we have to focus on and iterate on and where this can also really help is on how do we make this approachable?  And the two types of experiences that we could provide is one where it's easy. We have templates laid out, generators, or anything that they need just to get started, type in the code that they need, and then they're off and running. Or we could go the opposite direction. And even with fantastic documentation, but just have so much detail in there and so many little things they have to take care of, then it will still be really difficult for them to approach. And that'll limit our adoption. So... I think also you think of, certainly, and one of those to do... There's three audiences really to think about. One is you guys who are writing the infrastructure. Two is the guys who want to use infrastructure to write NSM plugins. And then three is the people who want to use the plugins to actually do something. And in some cases, it may all be the same people, but I think in most three different audiences and how to address the documentation and how to address the how-to's for that to Fred's point. And so there's minimal friction. If I just want to use NSM and somebody else has built a plugin, I should write some YAML files. I should not need to know anything else, really. Is that maybe how to deploy a demon set? If I want to extend NSM, I shouldn't need to know too much of the lower-level details, just enough to do a data plan or an endpoint. I totally agree with you. You want people to know just the things they care about. I often talk about this as keeping things under the complexity curve. So if you picture like an X and Y axis, where on one side you have... On Y, you have the complexity of what it takes to do a thing. And on X, you have the complexity of the thing you're trying to do. There's a 45-degree line there that you need to make sure you always stay below. Right? You always need to stay below that 45-degree line at all times. Yeah. It's not always possible, you know? But yeah. Or try to get people a way to at least navigate through it quickly with samples that they can leverage and modify of things. I think they'll speak to the right audience. So try to understand who you try to speak to, rather than you're not trying to speak to somebody who's writing the low-level plumbing when they're trying to use it, versus vice versa. So you'll oversimplify over the complex. Make it simply over the complex. Separation of concerns, you know, think about it. We'll think about it as well. So maybe what I'll do, I'll take the guidelines for extending and I'll add the links to the repos I created. I'll add some more readme. I have people who can look at it and we can have an online discussion rather than having it here, unless somebody wants to talk about it here. Sounds good. I would need some help. I don't really understand how to create the endpoints. I'm trying to create endpoints, but not creating NSM endpoints. A little bit opaque to me what the YAML files would look like. Oh, okay, okay, that makes sense. So I know that we had a network service and sort of a dummy network service endpoint example. I presume that you've looked at that and found that to be less clearly you would like. Yes. So Sergio created that simple data plane. If we could create a couple of YAML files for that so that we could use, maybe a little bit advance and ping Tom, but like a web NGX server to talking to a REST API and then using the simple data plane as a transport. How would I set that up? Okay, cool, cool. Because then we'll have a complete end to end application that people can say, oh, look, here I can use... It becomes our hello world, basically. Yeah, and then if I build a different data plane, I can use the same example and plug it in. And I say, look, I can swap out data planes and use the same example. And I think that starts to show the power of NSM or some of the features. Oh yeah, and I can swap out data planes and get the same example. Oh, look, I can swap out the network service endpoint implementation. And I still get something that does its thing. Yeah, I think that's a good idea. Yeah, I agree with that data plane transparency. That's something we haven't had in other endeavors. I mean, like Neutron, for example, even ODL doesn't quite have everything for data plane transparency in the release yet for, because it doesn't have the southbound for net com for really quite in there yet. And certainly being nice to have it in this platform. Yeah, I think we actually have to have it in this platform because among other things, we're gonna find different people in our needs. For example, we're gonna have people who want something that just works. They don't want to do a whole lot. They don't really care a lot about performance or latency. And for those people, a simple data plane probably works great. And then you'll get people who care a lot about those things. And for those people that want a more sophisticated data plane and so welding any single data plane is probably not a good thing. One other thing I think we will find is that we actually have different classes of data planes in the system. So there is the sort of local data plane need to sort of, I've got a local point to point data plane that connects two containers locally. That's one kind of data plane. You've got what I would call sort of the hardware data plane which is I have an SRIOV or hardware NIC that I want to provide my network service. That's a little bit different. And then you've got the remote data plane which is the, I want to reach a pod and it's not here. And I think those data planes may in fact being able to plug those separately may be quite interesting. Yep. I think once you start having examples that makes it, we can actually test ourselves to make sure that we can actually do these things. Agreed. Agreed. So, it's gonna be interesting. Hang on. I did want to bring up, I was trying to find my mute button. Yeah, definitely, stop laughing. A concrete example is definitely good because I want to play with the data plane but sometimes I just can't think of a good scenario to test out just to prove it out. So, having concrete example to say, hey, I want to connect this to that and be able to do X, Y, Z is just so much help to be able to get in and use it with just a concrete example that you can then extend to how you want to use it later on. Well, the Sergey's simple data plane kind of starts that. It's, you know, but we need to extend that. So, in the interest of time because we have some pretty big items on the agenda. So, I'm gonna wrap up real quick with this part. So, just to finish up by SROV, I don't think we've had much movement on the packet.net side for this particular week. So, that's something that we're gonna have to work out. You know, do we want to see if we can find a way to experiment with them or see if we can get a reserve device and work out like which type of reserve device will we like. There's some logistics we have to cover on that side before we can really test that assumption that it really is the BIOS issue. And so, in terms of, so in terms of going back to the main agenda, one of the things that we have to do is we have very little time for the open source summit arrives. And I wanna make sure that we have enough built up for documentation's approachability so that we can really drive people who are interested in the community to help participate in these particular meetings. And I saw that Kyle has made the first step towards building a landing page. Is that correct? Yeah, in fact, I can quickly share it. I mean, right now it's, I mean, I'm still working on it, so it's just local, but I'm happy to give everyone a preview if they'd like. Yeah, if you can bring it up and I'll talk a little bit more while you're getting that set up a little bit. So... Hey, Tom, if you could stop sharing for a second, I'll just quickly share the website then.  So a couple of other things as well is I think it would be very good for us to have someone who is present who is willing to take notes on some of the types of questions that are asked. So in other words, if there's something interesting that comes up that looks like Network Service Meshes would be well suited for, someone asks a very specific question that we may not have the answer there, being able to capture that information. And then we can work afterwards and get it back onto the landing page with this new content.  And this actually shows a level of commitment that yes, we do wanna get back, we do want to engage and we want to be active about doing so. And so I think if we were to go with... Something like that, I think that that would help drive attention towards us as well. Not to mention it would also help us for our own records and for our own information as to work out what type of questions people are asking. So the next time we hear that question, we all know the answer. Yep. I mean, the other thing that I'll point out is I will have 20 minutes to talk about Network Service Meshes at the seminar. And one of the things that I tend to do is put up QR codes that point to things that you want people to link to. So I will definitely be able to put up a QR code for folks to reach this page, which you'll people tend to take the photo with their phone and then they can reach the page. Just a little something, make sure the landing page itself has a QR code on it that points to itself because we can pull it up and people can take photos of the front page. Yes. Yep. And so I think like we need to work out this week what information we want to put on this landing page, like what scenarios we want to discuss and copy over some of the data from the repository into a web format in this scenario, which should be pretty easy because most of our stuff is marked down. So... Yes. So it should integrate nicely. But yeah, sorry, go on. I was gonna say one thing I was thinking that we should do this week is, I was planning to push this out as a new repository, a new Git repository, the website basically. And then what I was hoping we could do, we can iterate that way this week on it before we end up, excuse me, the coming week, before we end up pushing it live at the end of next week because that way everything's pull requests, right? Then we can have it build that way. We can comment that way. What do you all think of that? No, that sounds good to me. Yeah, I agree with that. And so we don't have to work out right now what exactly should be on that. I think we should rally on IRC and rally around the repository and pull requests. So if this isn't already on GitHub, if we can create a repository that, I have a network service mesh group and one option is we could land it in there. And that means that we don't have to give people access to the main repo, but we can add people to that in order to organize in the content. So that's one place where we could potentially live. To start off with. But the main point is that we need to have a repo that people can send their pull requests to and that we can give people access to. And I think it should be okay to preempt some of the questions as well that we expect people to see. We know that certain people ask certain questions often so we should seed the page with those facts. Yep, I agree totally. I've got one more meeting after this one but then the rest of my afternoon is free and this is what I'm gonna focus on. So I'll have this pushed out in some form today at least. And then we can all iterate about how bad a designer I am and things like that, which is, you know. Although I will say I'm pretty happy with this Hugo theme actually. Once I show you this it's pretty cool and we can change whatever we want. I mean, I just went through and picked images for now for different places, but yeah. So I'll let you go off and show off the site and then we still have other things to get to after that. So we'll. Yeah, yeah, let's, because we're gonna push this out as a give repository, let's just spend no more than five minutes on this so we can still cover the rest of the agenda. Cause I could see us totally, you know, spending the next 30 minutes on this. So what I did for now, I'll just, I'll just highlight some things, right? So I had to put the spider up here as Ed was mentioning to me for now. For now I just put, you know, a home link which obviously goes back here, a link to the source or doctor images. If we want to have a blog and then I was gonna give a landing page for the open source summit as well where we could put a bunch of collateral and things there. This just has essentially a quick rundown, super quick. I like how this slides. So then I have our problem statement next and Fred, thanks for the document. I took a lot of this right from the document that's merged in the tree. I would Smith a few parts to make it fit a little better. So it just has essentially the problem statement. Then we go into a little bit more detail on what exactly this is with a link to our documentation in the GitHub repository for now as well. And then on the end, I kind of put in a little blurb about the path to cloud native NFE. Ignore the bottom for now. I haven't gotten to this yet, but roughly that's it. So, and we're free to iterate on what we, you know, like Frederick was talking about, we're free to iterate on what we want to put on the top here as well and things like that. But I really like the way this theme for Hugo kind of flows. I think it's pretty cool. I think it's good. I think this is an excellent place to start. One thing I would suggest that we do think about and, you know, is making sure to broaden some of this, brought a little bit more than just NFE. We absolutely do crucial things for NFE, but there are a lot of enterprises in case this is going to be really quite amazing as well. Oh yeah, absolutely. And in fact, we can, I know that currently our documentation is totally on that, but for example, we can add additional bars down here that talk about the enterprise use cases and things like that as well. So, definitely, I agree. Also, what about TAB for use cases? Maybe. Yep, totally. And exactly, and I agree. And, you know, we definitely need more TABs and the use case thing and stuff like that. I don't think more TABs is a good thing. One thing I would suggest that we actually look at is if you look around at a lot of other sort of more modern projects, there are certain kinds of things that start to emerge as patterns where they'll have like a good one for this is, actually that's no longer good. So people will often have like TABs that are like concepts, documentation. Yes.  Where's the documentation?  Yep, yep, yep, definitely. So, and I've been looking at some of those, some of those as well, definitely. So this is, and definitely once we get this pushed out, we can all as a community iterate next week by pushing patches to this website and tinkering with it until we get it to the point where we're pretty happy. And I definitely expect we will continue to iterate on it even after the open source summit. But the goal next week should be to just get something that we're happy with, you know, for that Tuesday event in Vancouver. I think also having the types of users, so people who come there, you know, do I want to develop network service mesh? Do I want to add to network service? Do I want to use it? So there's different paths for them. Yep, no, they're absolutely, there absolutely is. And I think that's going to be crucially important because, you know, the way that somebody, like if you look at the stories that I saw this as good as the stories, if you're looking, if you're somebody who's developing an app, you have a totally different view of the world than if you're the guy who is sweating over what all goes into secure internet connectivity, for example, right? And you actually don't want to know about each other's worlds very much. Yeah, yep, cool. Well, I will stop sharing now. I've used exactly the five minutes I had suggested I should use. I'll let Tom go ahead and share the agenda again and we can keep going. Thanks. So before we share the agenda, and Hannah and the hardware next year, do you want to show that off? You might be on mute or I might be on mute. No, I'm on mute. It's the theme of the day. I'm on mute. I was on mute. I say much more intelligent things when I'm on mute though. No, my suggestion would be that we do the following. We kind of balance that to the end. So that we have time at the end, I'd be happy to walk through it. But we have other business I think we also need to get to. OK, I've bounced to the end then. Ninja, agenda bashing. But the link is there. This is actually the story that I told resource management this week about managing hardware next. OK, so group to test out Dependabot. So I personally think Dependabot's been doing a pretty good job. We found that one area where it didn't upgrade properly, Kyle fixed that up. So overall, I'm pretty happy about it. Anyone want to talk about their experiences with Dependabot in the past week? It appears to be the Pendle. That's why it's called Dependabot. So the one area that I think that is not as well, when the error occurred, because we did have one problem where it couldn't upgrade dependencies properly, did Dependabot open a pull request or an issue saying that it couldn't upgrade? Or did you have to go to the dashboard in order to see that it wasn't working anymore? It was something on the dashboard. And it's not, so that was the problem. They do note that I forget if the Golang support is either alpha or beta. But I remember they did note that Golang was somewhat recent compared to some of the other dependencies for languages. So that might be part of the problem. But that was, you're right, that was mildly annoying that I had to go just look there. And there wasn't a ton of information. However, that being said, this is a completely free service that we're using. So there is that as well. The other thing that I really like about the Dependabot though is that the source code for it is for the actual bot is completely open source. So if we ever did hit issues or anything, we should be able to look at the source. Should we so choose? And in theory, we could actually run our own version of the bot hosted somewhere else if we wanted as well. So that's the other reason I kind of like it, because at least those options are available to us. OK, that's good to know. So if it ever becomes onerous where we have to keep looking at this dashboard or work out if these problems have occurred, then one option that we have then is to modify the code to do one of two things. We can either have it create an issue when such a problem occurs and block creating new issues until it's resolved. And the second thing we could do is create a label that talks about Buildabot's own health. Sort of like, yes, this thing is passing its CI. It can have a Buildabot requires attention label. Exactly. And so we hop onto the front of the web page enough that when we hop on, if we see it's red, then we know we need to hop on it and deal with it. So Ed has been working on redrafting the email which is going to be sent off to the working group for the network service mesh. So you have the floor. Yeah, so I've got a lot of input. I've been trying to sit down and do a redraft. I have not yet sat down and done a redraft. It's been kind of a very meeting heavy week for me. And so I have not actually done that redraft. But it's become really clear. It needs to get a lot shorter, a lot punchier, and very focused on goals. And for the purposes of the working group, those goals need to be basically about clearly documenting the things that go into network service mesh. So basically how do people, basically how the architect, our document in the architecture, documenting the APIs for the people and things that actually plug into it and so forth. And I think this will eventually end up being quite crucial because we are going to want to have people who want to do things like external network service managers or proxy network service managers that plug into the system will have people who are wanting to plug in data planes and so forth. So we'll definitely need to get that redrafted, but have not yet. Okay, so yeah, if you need any help with it, definitely let me know. And I'm pretty sure there's other people here who would love to contribute. So. Quite frankly, anyone who wants to actually take a pen, I'm happy to grant edit rights to the document. And I think several of you already have them. So I mean, the lovely thing about Google Docs is the key history. So nothing is truly lost. So please don't feel like I'm sitting on this work item. So for the draft X Factor CNF, I've been thinking a lot about what such a thing should look like. So this week I'm going to have my first crack not on the heuristics themselves, but based on what Tom suggested, which is to just start working on the overall goals. And so what I'll do is I'll post a message when I've done the first draft of this. I'll post a message to the email list and ask for collaboration on this. And so I'm not expecting that we come up with any set of heuristics by the time that Open Source Summit comes out. But I do think that trying to capture exactly what it is that we like, what do we want the world to look like ourselves? Like what properties do we find important? And once we have those, then what we can do is create the set of heuristics, describe like, no, you want horizontal scalability. This is what you should look at. You should look at how do the 12-factor apps work? How does Kubernetes horizontal scaling work? And what's required for your application to like what properties your application should have? And I think what's going to end up happening is that we're going to have people who have different sets of dates. They're not going to have the needs for everything, for all of those goals. But if you have a need for, your data plane needs to be fast, cannot have any intermediaries because of the performance requirements, and it needs to be horizontally scalable, then it's like they can look at the various heuristics and just learn from it. And then that'll help them make better design decisions as they move forward. So that's sort of like the pattern that I'm thinking of at this point because I think there's too many ways, too many types of things that we're talking about that until we have a very solid definition of what a CNF even is, which we haven't even gone to yet in the community, then, you know, you're saying, hey, here's the heuristics to create them doesn't make as much sense. But saying these are the type of goals that people care about, I think can help drive some of the conversation in that space. Does that make sense? I think that makes total sense. Cool. So I'll have something on that soonish. Let's see, I mentioned before, I don't think anyone did anything with the SROV this particular week because we've been focusing on other things. So, although there was something on Taylor with reaching up to Jacob, so was there any movement on that? I don't know, do you happen to know Watson? I actually know that I text him, but he hasn't responded. That's okay, that's okay, he's off today. I do know that I did actually dig up in the course of talking to Sergey. So there is two interesting things came up. One is there is a list of which mix or with which flavor at packet. And so that actually is helpful. The second thing that I dug up is the availability of flavors varies radically by site in packet. And so one of the issues that we were having was the only flavor that was available in the Canadian site that was where Sergey was trying to work was not a particularly helpful flavor in terms of getting the stuff working. And we discovered, for example, their San Jose site and of all odd things, their Newark site have the broadest variety of flavors available. And so it becomes easier to figure out which mix you want to use and so forth. I understand there's San Jose site, but I'm really confused by their Newark site. I mean, what server wants to go to Newark? Yeah, just to be clear. So packet ed, not to be confused with the one and only ed is mentioned that there's no, that even in the site, there may be variants in hardware configuration. So I don't think we can rely, like even that document doesn't fully coincide with the information that I was told about how you can pick an instance and end up with potentially a different card. So that's something we should be careful with. We'll have to figure out how to work with them so on that and sort of see what can be done because you do actually want, if some people do want to be able to try and actually run this stuff, and I think bare metal public cloud is gonna be important for a lot of consumers that we would have for SRIOV. And if you're running bare metal public cloud, you damn well need to get what you expect in that area. Completely agree. And I also think that what we should do is we should work, try to work out who the right person is who controls that particular decision and see if we can convince them to flip that decision around and say, look, you want to tackle these particular groups and then it appears that you've mentioned you want to head off in this direction. And if that's true, then you really need to enable this feature and take a look at it.  If you need a deterministic result, right? If they could literally just give you a little checkbox that says you were guaranteed the advertised NIC when you select the flavor, they can still have diversity in their underlying hardware because you're working all of that out as hard and expensive. But if I click XYZ flavor and it's supposed to have ABCNIC and I click the little checkbox, I'm damn well gonna get ABCNIC. I imagine people would be even willing to pay a slight premium for it. Yeah, so let's work out what we want to tell them and see if we can convince, like work out to that person as we need to talk to and see if we can convince them that that's an important feature. And if it's on their roadmap, it's something that they have to do. And if they haven't added it to their agenda or task to perform, then that'll be good feedback for them. Okay, so we don't have too much time, so let's talk about the extending network service mesh and whether it should be in or out of a tree. I think we're discussing earlier. So I mean, why don't we just go through that action item I had on the to-do board? Could you follow the link to the action items Thomas? Yeah, sure. Sorry. Where are we? Issues. It's towards the top. Oh, yeah. I think I already have that out, but anyway, a little bit of redundancy in my way and my pages is fine. Okay, we're looking at the... Each review, guidelines for extending out of time. I also had to do there under the last, the second from last bottom to do, I had a, or something separate, but separation concerns and different audiences. Separate out the concerns for the audience, MSM to make it more accessible. Come on. Oh, that comes up in a different page, the way it's coming there. Should I stop this one? Where'd it go? Are we just looking at the pull request at this point or? Yeah, I would just leave it now and let's focus in the pull request that needs a review. Yeah, pull request 180. Oh, yeah. 247. 247, yeah, that's over here. Okay. So let me add the link to the new repo I created with the template generator stuff and have a discussion there. I mean, Kyle, you're the one who had comments and I mean, I'm not sure which way is the best way to do this, but I'm open. Yeah, I mean, and by the way, thanks for doing this work. I spent a bunch of time reviewing this and it's really excellent work, so. My main comments were, in fact, I was the one who brought up the in tree versus out of tree. And the reason that came up actually, John, was when I was reviewing it, the directory structure you had, I was confused at first because it didn't match what we had in the network service mesh repository. But then it made sense to me when you indicated that you were kind of thinking of almost a clean slate out of tree, what the directory structure would look like. And from that perspective, it made sense. And that was why I said, well, we should probably spend some time discussing with the broader community. Do we want to do out of tree or in tree for these things? So what I did was, it took you out of tree idea. I wrote a script that basically uses the work search you had done and just pulled a bunch of the existing make files and stuff, and created an out of tree template structure. So now you can basically run a script and I'll create an out of tree NSM for you to go and do your own work. And then you can do a build against the old link to the NSM main repo to basically create a separate. Plug in for you. So I mean, in terms of the out of tree question, I think there are two really crucial points that we have to make sure we do no matter what we decide. And the two really crucial points are number one, we need to remain welcoming, meaning that for reasonable-ish kinds of things, we are welcoming to having an appropriate place to put them in tree. And number two, we have to remain flexible, meaning it should be possible to do work out of tree if for any reason you decide that you want to work out of tree. As long as you do everything else is gravy. Definitely. And I will indicate that past experience, years back in neutron, in tree for things got complicated just because we had the other thing. So that got unwieldy at that point. Now, I don't know, do most CNI plugins, for example, live out of tree or is there a central or how does that work? They mostly live out of tree. And so I guess the thing I want to be careful about is I want to be avoid the appearance of there being the one true data plane.  And so I don't want, I agree with you that you can get out of hand at some point. If we do get out of hand, then we have to sort of figure out how we're gonna handle that reasonably. But we're far from the day of getting out of hand. So I think we need to remain vigilant about getting out of hand, but I wouldn't want someone to come and look at network service mesh and say, for example, oh, that's only if you're using VPP. Yeah, I think we need in tree, they extend on Sergey's examples for in tree work for some of the popular data planes that people in the open source world, like for example, open V-switch and VPP and then maybe a few others. But certainly there'll be people who want to work with proprietary data planes or fork their own in anticipation of doing something open source later or whatever corporate agendas and they're welcome to do that. The other thing I want to be careful with as well is that if someone's trying to do something in tree, then that means that someone from, we either have to give those communities commit access to merging their own stuff, which gives commit access to much more. Or we have to, we end up being the gatekeepers on an area where we really shouldn't be the gatekeepers. And so I think we should be very careful with in tree from that respect. Like right now it's probably okay, but in the long run, like even the sample data plane, I would argue that we should eventually push them all into their own repositories that people can... Yeah, at some point, I doubt if we're quite ready for that. It seems like if you did, if you pushed a bit to too many different places too soon, then people would just have trouble keeping track of all of them and finding them. Yeah, problem just now is that, I mean, I had to do some detective work to figure out what all the files were for creating a sample data plane and where they were in the tree. And that's why I created my own template tree. So it took me a day of futzing around to get it right. So if everybody's had to spend a day, well, I knew my way around a little bit already.  It's going to be a steep learning curve and they are going to push stuff in, just pull you in a clobber of other stuff because even to make files, Sergey edited the main make files and the Docker files to make it all work. So to create the way that's why I confused Kyle by creating a different directory structure for the samples so that we don't... So people creating samples don't have to touch the same files as the core infrastructure, which would also cause a lot of problems because you know... Well, I assume that and I'm aware of that because I tried to do some of the same thing. I took all the sample data plane code, tried to figure out where it all was and got to that point. And it is a little bit complicated because there's a lot of files in different places. So I, but that's useful. I figured that once you followed what you were talking about, John, and then people, if that data, if that thing were to be put in a pull request and they put it all back to a fork or something and then put it in a pull request, that's the workflow that I envisioned in my head for what I was gonna do. Yeah, but I put it where it was convenient to do the development and then put it back and then test it before I did the pull request. I don't know. I mean, that's just my own peculiar way of doing things, but it kind of made sense. I don't know whether early in the development phase quite justify sort of creating public repos of this stuff spread all over the place. I'm just worried people wouldn't be able to find it and might detract from the usefulness or whatever or degree of open source, what do you call it? Review that different ones have got whatever different governance roles. It could get, I think I have a certain amount of it in this project is probably a good idea for a while. I'm not questioning people's way of, and I think that's separate from what workflow you use as an individual developer in your own space, fork, whatever you're gonna do, you know, but at some point, when you get ready for a pull request, we should converge on something for at least for the first four, five, six, maybe they go back in here. I don't know, it's just my thought, just to keep things kind of consistent and in-house for a while and then let whatever happens, happens after that. Just a question of when? Yeah, I think something we can do that'll help in the future as well is, you know, if we identify where, what files are, where necessary that have been scattered around and so on. We can start to structure the code base in such a way that this becomes an easier process. And worst, well, one potential path towards this as well is we could potentially expose out some form of an API or something similar and use some, you know, we can use some form of leaves hooks or something similar that knows how to abstract a lot of this away. So that way that it really becomes very easy for a developer to type in the code in the appropriate sections and get the results that they're expecting. And so, you know, so I think that, you know, we should see like of the first few data planes or the first few integrations to see like how that works and how that goes. And then once we understand what people were really, what problems people were really having and how network service mesh itself is also growing, then we can start to look at such an abstraction. If you take a look at what I did, I'll post it. I did essentially what you're talking about Fred in that I created a tree that had all the files for sample data plane and cut down to make files that only built the sample data plane. So that could be in tree or out of tree. So I think it makes the, it kind of solves both problems. So you could do it in tree if you wanted and you could do it out of tree if you want to. There's no restriction.  And then we're fairly confident that that pull and that change request is only just touching the sample code that won't touch anything else, which makes reviewing it a lot easier. Cool. So we've hit the top of the hour. If you can do one thing for me as a, if you can add in a GitHub issue, talking about providing an easier way for these integrations to work, just, you know, it doesn't have to be code or anything, just say, just so that we have something tracking this. And in terms of Hannah and the hardware Knicks, there's a link on the agenda and if we have time, we can cover it next week in more detail and people can have, that would give you time to look at it and ingest it and then bring your questions so that that way we can improve the narrative. Will that work for you, Ed? It is triple muted again, Ben. Yep, that works for me. Cool, yeah. And I'm really excited about Hannah and the hardware Knicks. I'm a little sad that we ran out of time, but. I'm really amused that I appear to be writing highly technical children stories. I think it's effective. So, let's look at that. And if you want to hear the presentation, there's now a link to the video where I presented it for resource management, so. Great, and with that, we'll close up the meeting and thank you everyone for attending and we'll see you again next week. Bye everybody.


Everybody forced here. We've got 2022 Star Wars Masterware case number nine random mini box style So opened up the case here. There's four in the front. There's four in the back. They're just stacked like that We're gonna face them forward by stack This one top up here is box one mini boxes one through four That's how we're gonna do it. I'll open it up here show you what's what and we'll random off the mini box numbers And then we'll rip. Good luck guys Let's see some fire. We've seen multiple sketches great autos all triptych sketch last case So again, this is one two three four is four mini boxes go left to right Five six seven eight so on so forth and we go to the back. What's your don't those four master boxes? Okay Let's go ahead and do our random Five times two and three Okay names first one Two three four and five Jonathan M down to Jennifer Y and Five times in the mini box numbers here one two three Four and five 20 down to 30. Let's read these off Jonathan M 2012 Jonathan L 19 Jonathan M 23 Sol C 31 Gregory M 15 and 17 Raymond G3 Gerard 27 K Ray 7 Chris V 29 Andrew R 13 Francis D 32 Greg M 4 Francis D 24 Greg M 14 Michael G 11 West R 6 Jonathan M 18 Chris V 9 Gregory M 16 Chris V 2 Gerard with one Sol C 28 Chris V 10 Kale F 8 Francis D 5 Jonathan L 21 Raymond G 25 Ryan L 26 Jennifer Y with 22 and 30 Going to post the random results right now Get your link here. Just give me a sec I'll call out the names as we go along as well for Whose mini box we're ripping. All right, there you go Yeah, you got one you got one pretty bass prism Okay, here we go. Y'all one more case after this all sold out for tonight Uh, personal is probably pretty close if you order though, I'll get it done for you And I keep ordering up. There's four orders in queue. I'll get those done for sure Any decent order put it in guys, I'll get it done for you All right, so Box one you got mini boxes one through four left to right Let's go. Let's go. Let's see a monster character sketch here big time character number one for Gerard Luke there commander pyre I got the cheer it in way can and Jarrus and bokeh tan crease in mini box one congrats Gerard Katie sack off Otto's bokeh tan crease That'll do that's how we start great start number two chris v They really need to get more like I feel like tops is the place to do it too because they're pretty good at with the starware sketches now We'd love to see that more they have them in baseball. They haven't a museum collection baseball some other baseball products, too They're really rare. They're really comfortable like the museum's canvases. They have original sketches of those in there. They're super super rare Uh blue cheer at in way And then Otto of twan way rena o and two of 50 You go chris v with mini box number two Any feelings at all on zappy? I have yeah, I have no feelings.  He's surrounded by talent Uh reyman g number three. I hope most of patriot's office isn't there next year Just turn over turn over turn over turn over Raymond g number three here we go purple scat out of 50 This card is like Dammit. Just like the the like the back is coming off uh, we'll get a box and wrap her out to you uh reymond boil tuenced generator there to two ninety nine New hope to two ninety nine tuskin radar And the mandillorian source fabric relic green the 99 that's the cloak 11 and 99 Mando and before we got Greg M. Yeah, I think I think so too shady I'm trying to pull at least one Brady card Not even a lot. I'm trying to pull a Brady card even the the base of the insert is Is a tough hit tough hit? Okay, Cad Bane zero on the blue Cast this Mando and a fn 2 1 9 9 autograph here gave it a cord that the third auto in the box Think it was You go Greg. All right, Francis D. Number five to start us off in five to eight here There's more mash to work tomorrow everybody get your spots for that random any box style again Look Francis here. We got you Greg. We got we got more chances here got more chances here Hunter Boba Fett canvas That is nine of 25. There's some peeling on this one. Unfortunately, Francis We're gonna have to send a box and wrapper with that nine of 25 on the Boba canvas. You got to get that one replaced That's the numbering a cad Bane auto on the blue 93 of 99 Dorian Kingie Kinji I would guess it's I sit again Francis and And then blue Zory bliss number six for West Boba Dr. Krennic on the blue and an fn 2 1 9 9 auto again for West 6 7 is for k-ray IG 11 bokeh tan on the blue Dooku solo jar jar auto Here we get a jar jar auto last one the last time Ahmed best jar jar magnet out here Sweet jar jar and a ray Stamp relic as well and eight is for kale kale F It's a sketch card coming sketch card coming for you kale. Good luck green Costco Reeves of 99 fifth brother BD1 and oh my goodness the Mandalorian a sketch Jonathan Baseline holy cow. That is fire. So sick, dude. Congrats kale Wow, hello, I think of sports cards That's crazy cool right there, man. Dude. Congrats kale. Chris V is up with nine and ten. Good luck. Chris with nine and ten here Blue on the granny quiz it are there Saw Gerrera auto Andrew Cachino as the animated saw Gerrera autograph And Jersey, you're not Jersey Source fabric relic of Luke Skywalker. He is on the light side though. He's on that team. So Jersey guard battle tunic sourced fabric relic Luke Skywalker For your Chris number 10 for your Chris here as well Django blue costa Reeves armor color match Babu major von reg and the client Beskar ingot medallion 10 of 50 the client Medallion go Chris. All right 11 is Michael G Michael G is 11 here kind of like IG 11 Blue of Han Solo babies Surgeon duck bokeh tan and an auto of nightwind assassin Paul Darnell nightwind assassin a 99 and Jonathan M with 12 Will be one quote green 99 director Krennick 64 of 99 grogu base foil some jaw was there from a new hope 299 and Jonathan and with a job at best auto is Jar Jar banks All the Jar Jar is now everybody everybody's getting Jar Jar's Solid hit there for you Jonathan All right 13 through 16 here Okay, so 13 through 16 Andrew R has 13 Greg has the rest of them Next the next three in the box. No, not all the a yes for shrimp is actually it's kind of strange Andrew are we're 13 here head quill number 225 there's a See a bottom corner there bottom left in my hand right now. There's a raised corner To send a Bosch wrapper to the For you and you are number 13 here Slight damage in case you want to get that replaced And or nice foil Luke. That's good. That's good at 299 that makes up for it a bit right there Luke 299 Yeah, we're getting there. We're getting there Michael got scheduled to group breaks ahead of it Fifth brother auto Philip Anthony Rodriguez This is the good stuff You gotta follow this box So Greg's got 14 15 and 16 here 14 15 16 for Greg next three for Greg blue Cal Custis and a frog lady auto Misty Roses as frog lady Ribbit 15 for Greg as well Go to their blue IG 11 Greg's got a sketch It's got a sketch. Oh, wow Obi-Wan Kenobi. That's fire animated Obi-Wan Kenobi sketch emory Varly bus That's Greg. There you go, man Take that all day And then 16 cells are in Greg has 17 in the next one to geez I guess we're in the same one right now is any yeah, right? He's pretending to not know about Star Wars. He knows all about it Yeah, he does it's got like Star Wars PJs green zero to 99 oil boba nice boba 258 to 299 and A ray commemorative stamp. He always plays the Star Wars theme. It's kicked out because yeah All right 17 through 20 here 17 you got Greg em again more straight. That's kind of Back-to-back sketches here Really damn Greg Greg second sketch coming up Never need a stamp. You're gonna open that card and take the stamp out and use it for postage, Greg I don't think it works. I think it's just a commemorative stamp. It's not a it's not a forever stamp green Kylo to 99 Greg's getting sketchy tonight Getting sketchy. Dang, dude.  Oh, man? Oh my god Grogu behind Mando That's the coolest sketch I've seen today. Yes for sure Jesus Greg That's in the the N1 the silver N1 starfighter With a little separate little co-pilot thing good. God that is ridiculous That's on that's the best one. I've seen today. No without a doubt Dude alright 18 Jonathan M. Oh, I say so I say so that's a monster sketch, Greg That's a month if it it's hard to like comp sketches That is that is a pricey sketch card right there And being their blue fifth brother They general Merrick radar screen prop relic Michael I've been saying we have another case of Mashed work after this like I've like I said a few times and then we start personals. So we're still probably like About an hour away or so This one is where we are now 19 19 for Jonathan L Scheduled breaks as always ahead of personals Yeah, 19 here for Jonathan L got wheel number to 25 here Jonathan Do a little Luke Skywalker and a Julie Dolan Princess Leia auto here Animated Leia and 20 Jonathan M again the Jonathan's are alternating here Okatan on the blue Landowed to 99 on the foil original trilogy foil card here And the pure security officer is Philip Alexander on the autograph for you Jonathan M Jonathan L again with 21 told you the Jonathan's are alternating here 21 Jonathan L Agent tyranny nice orange chewy to 10 Chewbacca to 10 Do another sketch? This is getting crazy.  I like the it's like little stylized Robert Stewart the fourth Artist signature Han Solo Yep, that's what's up. This is crazy Jennifer. Why is up now at 22? Jennifer why 22 here? Green Finn the 99 that is a Leia at a 299 nice Leia You hope the metal scene medallions here whatever Han Solo to 99 a commemorative stamp Solid box Jennifer good stuff Give me a box there 23 we got Jonathan M. Let me think again. Oh, oh, we got a frame. Oh, man. Oh Boy Okay Marin blue look Jonathan M foil of wicket Warwick to 299 and a frog lady framed autograph three of only five Ratch Jonathan three of five framed auto frog lady Misty Rosas. Well, there you go 24 now Francis D. It's Quillen Voss on the blue And an auto of Luminara unduli We're Francis number 24 Luminara unduli Alright 26 or sorry 25 through 28 here number 25. Good luck Raymond G Come on Mothma on the blue. There's a foil here of Luke to 299 Empire Strikes Back and Source fabric relic ray Jacket relic ray for Raymond there 25 you got 26 here Ryan L Green Ezra Bridger to 99 It's Mayfeld K2 we got Cassian and or radar screen relic Rebel base radar screen Cassian and or his card Ryan Mini box 27 is Gerard. Nice color coming up here Lando inserts that is orange Chewbacca again. Wow another orange chewy 7 of 10 this time and an auto Julie Dolan is Princess Leia or Gerard and 28 saucy Cad Bain Fed insert blue Darth Vader and imperial security officer autographed numbered not numbered here Phillip Alexander For you Saul and the last one all right 29 Chris V. All right, there's grandma off-target with a purple Commander Pire it's a 50 foil of the Imperial Guard here to 299 and An auto FN 2199 David Accord number 299 2199 and 99 All right, Jennifer Y. Number 30 here. I'm not sure it's a monocle. I'm not sure when is culture collision again blue is Carson Tava and a Calto Nali auto Paul Casey is Calto Nali Saul back again with 31 here Cassian and or in the blue We might be You might be I'm not sure I haven't heard anything about culture collision and a Armorer source fabric relic belt belt All right, and last one here 30 to Francis D You going can learn and we might be there The only reason I don't know is because I don't know we go to shows Maybe land will go because I'm not sure if we're setting up or not though green the 99 Mando Cool Mando 30 93 99 Jana and a cure-all was that a ring Crimson dawn signet ring medallion card Cure off from a road one. I wrote one Solo sour story there you go Francis guys that does it for number nine number tens coming up next


Now, welcome to a session on interview skills. That again is extremely important. Moving on to the interview skills, again how to initiate is an important aspect. All of us falter even I would have faltered during my younger days. First and foremost, we must tell our students in order to relay their fear because they feel that the life hangs on a particular interview. I think IIT Bombay right now the placements are going on and I know the students must be undergoing a lot of pressure. So, what happens is when we take a lot of pressure because what is at stake is not just a few laps but at times a crore also for their placements. However, if we are stressed about a particular interview, will that not be reflected on our face? If we are super-duper intelligent and we know we can crack anything, any question then it is fine, nothing matters. Google and Microsoft will come, pick the brains, they do not need anything, they know they can train you. But otherwise they will also have to train you but otherwise they would want a good mix of brain and behaviour. And the moment you walk, the moment the participants walk in, the interview we walk in, the scaling begins, the marking begins. First hesitation is if there is a lady, how should we welcome, how should we say good morning or good afternoon or whatever? Wish the lady, wish the other gentleman as well or some people ask me, should it be good morning all? That does not look good, we should avoid saying good morning all. A mere good morning would serve the purpose, again make full use of your eyes, look at everybody and then modestly say a good morning. Wait for them to ask you to sit down and then sit down and then the grilling might begin. We have to tell our students it is not an elimination process, if not they spend something else. Let our lives not hang on that particular interview because only one of them would be slated and the person who gets slated in need not necessarily be the best. It is how you perform on that day and what was the requirement as well. So, we must take that into account, we must always remember that you are tested on what you know and how well you know. One thing that I would want every student to remember is the interviewer, the professor, the people in the corporate house, they have been there, done that. So, do not try to outsmart them, you may keep a few information to yourself but do not post any false information or do not try to be over smart, do not beat around the bush. Any question here please? The topic is an extremely exciting one and is one which has, we need the help of the inputs that you are giving us right at this moment today because this is a problem which our vernacular students of the vernacular medium face to go about the GD and the PIs. So this has been extremely helpful for us and madam, we have taken all your points and we are working on them madam, on our students and everything. Thank you so much. Would you have any questions here? Would you have any questions? I would like to ask you one question that is regarding this confidence building measures that we would like you to digress on, like what would be our initial kind of beginning with people who come from extreme rural backgrounds madam, this if you could throw some light on this aspect, yes. Involve for the GD and the PI what we could do is first and foremost you would need to put them in a group, this has to take a long duration, this would be like a long duration thing. We need to put them in a group wherein they can interact with a couple of students who would be patient with them. I do that here, I normally attach them to some of the students who are ready to willing to help. So with them they talk in English with, because somehow English is their preferred language, they talk in the language and they try to improve upon their grammar. The next thing that we do, we have those mock simulated sessions on GD and interviews. So out there again they are made, they are forced to talk and because it is a simulated atmosphere, the other students also wait for the person to talk. They have strong points, they are made to talk and personally I do not mark them there on their grammar. The grammar does not have to be impeccable at that particular juncture. It will come naturally and you know with time, but at the same time if the person has developed a confidence he will definitely listen to you when you say that your grammar needs to improve now. You have to pay more attention on grammar now. So if he has come up to that level, we have to bring him up to a level that he faces a crowd and irrespective of the grammar he can talk for four to five minutes. If you achieve that you can then work upon the grammar aspect of the thing. I hope that we initially have to break the inhibitions that they have, that is not to open their mouths. Let them talk like this inhibition has to be worked on. Yes, it has to be worked on and you allow, you ask them to come and make a presentation for the topic which you are going to take. Ask the person to come grilled with it, give him a topic like for my class if it is something to do with body language or listening skills. I would ask them to make a presentation on listening skill, a five minute presentation on listening skill and that does not have to be a PPT. That has to be an oral communication, an oral presentation. So the person works for a week, he takes help from the other people, he practices it in front of the mirror, he records it and then comes and makes a presentation. I have had an occasion, it was an executive MBA class. It was a 20 hour program spread over five days. I am quoting it because that is the highlight of my career. And the person came, the very first five minute he comes and says madam I am sorry, I cannot talk in front of a crowd, I have never done that, I am quite inhibited. We said okay we will see, my classes are always very interactive. I would force them to talk in the class. The fifth day they had to make a presentation and when he made the presentation post that it was not I who gave the feedback, it was the peer group that said we never knew you could speak so well, what made you speak so well. So it is just that many a times if you are the role model for your student, it will definitely help and boost his confidence. He said madam those five minutes that you gave me on that particular day, I felt the five minutes that I spoke with you on that particular day made me think that I could do it. Okay? Yes, madam. Thank you. Yes, madam. So initially the peer has to help. Peer is, peer group must come in. You have to bring that in because we are there for an hour or so. Okay? Thank you. One double zero eight, over to you. Ma'am we have generally seen the tendency in Vidarbhae students that they are lacking or they have the fear in their mind particularly about these group discussion and interview scales. So how, which role that we faculties have to take to take out their fear factor. That is the major problem for us ma'am. So please guide madam on this issue. What I have personally done and which has been fruitful is something which I mentioned earlier also. First and foremost the peer group has to come in. Secondly, engage them in your routine classes. Thirdly, a tutorial for them would definitely a one to one session for them would definitely help them. You will have to take that particular pain, the group of three to four of them or four to five of them, whosoever there are, you will have to take them personally and guide them both in grammar and communication. You will have to sit and or you will have to request a peer group and review what is being done over a week. First thing, one, just a minute please. Make them read aloud that really helps. Ask them to at least for half an hour newspaper beat newspaper beat the course book beat a novel whatever ask them to read the books and ask them to watch English news. That enriches both. Yes. Ma'am we we heard your lectures during that assignment duration. Your videos were fabulous and are very informative. Thank you. Ma'am my question is the first question in most of the interviews is tell me something about yourself. So according to you what should be the right approach for this question? Let me give you an example. Let us suppose I am sitting in an interview and you are my interviewer. All the centres are my interviewers. So tell me something about myself about yourself. I am Leena Jha and I am a business communication consultant. I work for IT Bombay, I work for corporates, I work for hospitality industry and I love swimming, I love writing poetry. I have done my masters from JNU and I have done my PhD from Bihar University and the lectures that I give I really enjoy them. That is my passion. So that was one way of introduction. That was my introduction to you. The second one could be I am just going to read out. Give me a minute please. I am going to read out. I am going to give you the elevator. You would have come across the elevator pitch. I think it is to Hanna I think. Sirna Murthy, Professor Sirna Murthy would have talked about the elevator pitch. You have to combine the elevator pitch with the interviewer skills. So what do you do now? I am going to tell you, I am going to tell you another kind of introduction. I am a business, the interviewer knows that I am Leena Jha. He has seen it. I do not need to say that I am Leena Jha again or I am Dr. Leena Jha again. So I am a business communication consultant and have been associated with IIT Bombay since 2008. My master's from JNU and my PhD from Bihari University sensitized me to the polarities in academic institutes. My work with the corporates and the hospitality industry as well as the students sensitized me to the issues that were there amongst the student and the working force. My interest lies in building up confidence amongst my participants and perhaps the extracurricular activities in which I am interested that is swimming, dancing and a bit of badminton. And the creative side of mine wherein I write poetry perhaps gives me the focus with which I interact with my participants. Finished. Which was better, the earlier introduction or this one? First let us take this is a very important question so excuse me this is a very important question. So please how should you prepare your introduction, how should you allow your students, how should you let your students or guide your students to prepare the answer for the first question is this. Have, it should be a power packed introduction. The student must write it beforehand, he must know it beforehand, it is not necessary for him to memorize it, he should know it beforehand and he should feel it beforehand because that is what sets the pace for the interview. What I do with my students most of my students especially those who are the weaker ones I ask them to write there the answer to this first question, show it to me, correct it with him and then give it to him. So the three questions, tell us something about yourself, why this organization and what are your strengths and weaknesses must be prepared properly. Now we can move on to your question please or your query. What is more important in an interview, technical knowledge or communication skills? One cannot do with the other, both of them are extremely important, somebody who says that communication skills can see you through the interview, I don't feel so. You need to have the practical knowledge, you need to have the knowledge about your subject and the way to present it as well in order to scale an interview. At the same time please teach your students, we need to teach our students to gauge the market and the company as well. As I said as I mentioned earlier, Microsoft if Microsoft comes it has already known whether he has to take you or no, they normally come by name. So for a Microsoft interview the communication skill may or may not be very important, it is only the knowledge that is important. But for a form that has come for a marketing segment, over there communication skills will be very important. You may falter on some of the questions, but if you are honest enough to say, I have done that but I can't remember it right now and then you have seen other questions properly, you have answered other questions properly, chances are you would be selected. So over there communication it would depend on the firm that has come to interview you. So you have to be cautious, you have to teach the students to be cautious as to which firm they are applying and what position they are applying. We need to talk about all these things, we need in an interview. It is not just one factor which affects the communication or the knowledge part, it is the requirement of the company also. So when we are saying, when we are in a communication, it cannot communication needs a feedback. There have to be two parties and we have to, we cannot go talk with the other person, other party, the interviewers. So we have to assess as to what they want and on that our decision should be based. Thank you. What are the various types of interviews? Okay. What are the various facets of interviews? What is the structure of an interview? What are the various levels of interview? Okay. When you please ponder on this, I am deviating here but what is the decorum of a group? What is the structured group discussion? What is the semi-structured group discussion? What is the unstructured group discussion? Can you please ponder on all these questions such that we will make a lot of each and every point on the questions which I posed. Thank you very much. Leisure, I think we have discussed everything. Whatever you asked, we have discussed everything. And as far as the decorum of a particular interview is concerned, it's very difficult to say what should be the decorum of a, you must have been in an interview parallel. We have something called stress interview as well. We have something called normal interview. We have things wherein looking at the students, we don't follow a particular pattern. We cannot tell our students that you would follow a particular pattern in an interview. No, because you do not know the interviewer. And what kind of they do not announce that we are going to have a stressed interview, we are going to have a very structured interview wherein we are going to ask you all these questions. So we have to prepare the students for all the eventualities. And there is a bottom line to everything. We have to give them a base model. Be it a group discussion or be it an interview, we have to give them a base model. For a stress interview, I often say we take stress interview, especially when the student is absolutely genius, brilliant. The moment we figure out that this student is brilliant and we want him in, we shift our gear and we move on to the stress interview part just because we know that his mannerism is fine under normal circumstances. We know he is intelligent. So let's try how he would function in a stress interview. So we need to tell our students that if the interviewer is being outrageous, hold yourself for a few minutes. See where he is driving at, what he is driving at, because he may have shifted to the mode of a stress interview. So out there, you would feel that it's bordering on insult. Yet maintain it unless and until it gets too personal. Maintain that decorum, face it, take a deep breath, answer what you feel like, what comes to your mind for that particular question. Ignore the tone of the interviewer out there because if it is at all a stress interview, the chances are if you have answered the questions well, you will be selected. Normally the stress interview happens if you have either been over smart or you are good, very good. As you said, what should be the structure of an interview? Normally, first the three questions come, then they would ask you what you are comfortable with and then perhaps the last leg as we already have in the slide, the parting bit. For the middle part, as we have said, if the interview goes beyond 15 to 20 minutes and you feel that they have also relaxed, you could also relaxed and lean back a little bit. That was again in the slides that you have seen. And for the last leg, it should be a cordial goodbye, it shouldn't be a handshake. We must tell our students that it shouldn't be a handshake, it shouldn't be a euphoric kind of a, if you think that it has been an excellent interview, you just go and say up, thank you. It should come from the interviewers because at times it is a signal that you are already in. If the interviewer shakes hands with you, that is a signal that perhaps 80 percent chances you are already in. So, let that be a deciding factor out there. If you round it up, both the group discussion and the GD, we have to be assertive, we have to be alert. There are times when our students are not alert in an interview also, it's as though they have just come for the interview, maybe they have mugged up throughout the night and they have just walked in for the interview. So, the dresses which I have not been able to concentrate on in my slides, they have to be dressed amicably, accordingly. If they are going for a mid-day interview, perhaps long hair and you know, all sorts of dresses might work out, but if they are going for a formal interview, they should be careful that they are not wearing a sports watch on a suit, that they are wearing proper shoes, the appearance also matters, that if they are wearing specs, they should not be bright purple and yellow. We need to take care of those things because the kind of people we want in our organization, we decide that also. I have a lot of choice if I come from a firm, even in IIT Bombay, I have a lot of choice. So, over there, somebody that fits into my category will be my choice. And therefore, we need to talk about these things. The best, safest bet nowadays is suit, go in your formals, do not wear dark shirt and if you are wearing a dark shirt, see that it is properly coordinated with the tie and the suit. Do not have a lot of rings in your hands because you will invite questions on those also. The next issue is a tricky phase, the interviewer who has been sitting for ages since 9 o'clock in the morning would want something different to ask and so by giving those rings, by giving a sports watch or something, something in congruers would always be another question for you. Sir, we have gone through the process of group discussion, now we are discussing about the interview. Yeah. This is the part you have decided the topic, so one has to decide the topic and after that it is the freedom of the participants, it is the freedom of the group, they will present their view and in three minutes group leader emerge, the group leader emerge by itself Yes. Who knows the concept, who can handle the situations and he emerge by itself, as far as the beginner is concerned, he start initiate the process only, initiator can be the group leader but it appears after few minutes, now group leader also facilitate also, he can facilitate for example, one of the parts somebody is not speaking, then he can ask the participants to come forward. As far as the result is concerned, the conclusion is concerned, group leader take the lead to produce the conclusion depending on the view produced by all the member of the group. As far as the team and group discussion are concerned, according to me these are the different things, team means we have to speak in the same tone, but in a group, we have the different views, we present our own views, for example we talk a team, a cricket team, we have a group and we have to talk about our teams, we always talk in favor of our teams, we will always have view for our team, but in a group we are different we have to put our own views, hence the majority of the majority, the view that is of the majority of the group member, that will be the conclusion and that will group leader itself conclude that way. Now in case of intrus, we are talking about the intrus, in an intrus one has to present himself in all respects, what we have in myself, when I speak it reflect about me, what my concept should be clear about the topic, because when we go for intrus, then the subject matters and other things are specified, I am a man of physics and at least we should know about the physics, the basic concept of the physics, so as far as there was a problem of a medium from the rooted area, why don't we initiate the students of that area to talk there in mother tongue, we are calculating the culture of the group discussion, not the language, first we will initiate them to talk in terms of their mother tongue in a group discussion, we can allow the topic of their problem of their ablaze, for example, interest of the youth in the ablaze towards for example, if I allow the topic of the ablaze, I will allow them to talk in the mother tongue, at least they will come to know the basics of the group discussion and then they can be switch over from language from their mother tongue to English language. So, our interest is to understand about the discussion and not the language, these are the things that I want to incorporate in these ideas which I have gone through. Thank you very much professor, thank you very much for your insightful observations, there are two points which I would like to make out here, the team always emerges from a group discussion, we cannot have a team unless and until we have had a group discussion, as you said the team has to speak in a voice, but there are voices of dissent, a group discussion has taken place, a team has been allotted when they speak in a in unison, it is only after they have had proper group discussion and then they come up with a particular point, then they come up with a particular decision to which the entire group or the entire team has to talk about they become team. However, many a times it so happens that people may not agree with the team's decision, there may be two voices in a team, but they all go ahead with the decision to which the majority of the team agrees to, so there are two, I normally say I had mentioned in group discussion that you must come up with your point, you must come up with your stand simply because when it emerges as a team, only one procedure will follow, they all have to adhere to a particular thing, now if that particular decision fails, they will fall back upon your stance upon your decision. So what happens when a decision has been taken, you have to work as a team and you have to move ahead with that particular team giving you 100 percent. Now the second question, the second thing which I wanted to say was regarding the interviews, so you said it has been observed that we need to give them, we need to ask them to talk in vernacular language, believe me I have tried that. What happens is they are all very comfortable having a group discussion in the vernacular language, however with the paucity of time we have to bring them into the English world because that is the competitive word too soon than we would love to and that is why I said do not concentrate on the grammar when they are participating in a discussion, concentrate on the points, build their confidence by saying whatever point they have raised is good, once that confidence comes up and they can hold a discussion with you for five minutes, a one on one with you for five minutes that would be the time when you could actually start taking care of the grammar. It will definitely work. Thank you very much once again for your insightful suggestions. Ma'am there was this one question I was thinking about that when we ask our students to discuss their weaknesses the general tendency is that they feel a little reluctant and they try to cover up their weaknesses in a way as though it were the most positive aspect. I mean I would like to share one of the answers that one of the students once said. He said I get so engrossed in my work sometimes that I compromise at a personal front so that is one of my weaknesses and I'm working it out by trying to learn how to balance work and personal life. So I usually tell them that it's nothing wrong if you just tell them that you have a weakness because recognizing it kind of does have the job. So I just wanted your views on that. I do concur with your view that was the tendency you know that was something which started almost a decade back that line of thought which you said and it has been following ever since then to present your weaknesses as your strength. You've already presented your strength now when you present your weaknesses however what I would like to suggest is when you present when we ask our students to present their weaknesses we should also ask them to be prepared as to how they are working to do away with it. So if it is getting you know a little excited about certain things what is he actually doing?  You know they should be ready for a question from the interviewer and I personally myself believe that honesty is the best policy. So perhaps now if you wish to present one of one such weakness by which you think your interview could be in geo-party in that case perhaps you could practice this particular policy of you know hiding it, shying it away with something. Some of them do mention and I am not a very organized person. Yes okay fine you're not a very organized person so how will you how will you fit the next question would be how will you fit into this organization? Yeah I usually tell them that just tell them that I may not be organized but I do know how to prioritize work so I kind of take care of it. Yeah it is fine it would depend on it would depend on the personality one thing again answer to these questions depend upon the personality of the student also. Yeah if we if we make them learn certain answers you know it just doesn't go with the personality and we know that the person is has been tutored into answering it. So we really do not want a robot we must not create robots out there. So it's very hard work for us professors you know in order to identify the personality and make them aware of their own strengths and to portray them in the interviews but then we have to take that on us upon us. That's why the peer review really helps because then we have one question being answered by more than five to six students so those are different perspectives coming out they are able to relate to some and they don't really identify with the other that's how they're able to frame better answers for themselves. Very true and for my for my classes you know presentation whether I have an executive group or I have the MBA students for everything I have a presentation and the feedback comes from the peer group. So when it comes from the when the feedback comes from the peer group you may be taken aback but at the same time everything is being video recorded. So what they do is they go back they identify those that feedback and then work upon it. So since we have these kind of technologies today we must make use of it record it show it to them many times the students come and ask me to read a particular passage so that they can record it. They record my classes and then they go back listen to it. Certain pronunciation we have we have those mother tongue influence in so many cases. Now I don't mind it that much I really don't mind it that much but then some of the companies may think that we need to have a clear tongue. For that we have to do away with the mother tongue influence over there recording also help go to Google you can get the pronunciation from there give them a class on fun it takes and help them look up the the pronunciation of certain words in the dictionary. So that way also students from the vernacular medium would definitely benefit. Madam does it not depend upon the company for which you are being interviewed? That is what we have been talking about for a marketing interview your preparation has to be different.  So we have to for a for an academic interview it has to be different. So we cannot that is why we can just give you a baseline the rest of the research you have to what do you know about the organization that is one of the question that features in the interview. So unless and until you know about the about the organization you cannot prepare for the interview. We cannot say okay this is a straight-jacketed thing work on these things and you would scale the interview. No certainly not I have myself been there it has been a stress interview for me long back in my career and when it bothered to proper insult I just picked up my bag and walked out when they saw and started working out when they saw that I was working out I was called in again very respectfully offered tea also post that. It depends on that is why I said for a stress interview maintain try controlling yourself we absolutely calm but if it comes to ethical or ethnic kind of a thing very politely and very droidly a droidly tell them we could move on to more scholastic or academic questions. Okay why did I bring this point because there could be a question when during the stress interview the interviewer might also go far. Okay so over there let the interviewer know that I'll take this much but I'll not take more than that. So that would also be if it is a if it is that high level of an interview I think the interviewer would also be happy to know that he has somebody who has self ego self respect as well. So the interviewers interviews are of various kinds because we have so many people so many kinds of people taking an interview the bottom line would be as we have been talking the bottom line would be you know for the students be prepared be properly dressed where they smile on your face don't look nervous and if you are flustered if you are nervous doesn't matter go if there is water request for some water sit there hold yourself calm take a deep breath be prepared with your first answer do not rattle it post that if they give you the choice which is your what would what would you want us to ask you on. Anabha should be tell them this was my strongest point let them ask a question they may not ask you a question on that in that case take your time and answer you know we are stressed our students are stressed because they feel they have not got that particular job or they may not get that particular job but one wrong choice from the interviewers is going to cost a lot of money to the organization they are also spending a lot and that is why these varied kind of interviews people come to me students come to me and say it's not shot to the other I had spoken so much I was the most vociferous of the students out there and yet I did not get in because when you are being so aggressive because you are tutor to be aggressive by some of these coaching institutes because you were tutor to be aggressive you lost count of the points that you are making or that there may have been some brilliant points that were raised and you did not team up with them okay and the nature of the job would have been team spirit so we have to be very careful during those interviews and at the same time we have to be thinking out of our boxes. Yeah the question from our centre is it was said in the beginning that interview is an assimilation process but not an elimination process but practically is it so because when the corporate houses come for an engineering college they usually conduct attitude test first then group discussion and then followed by interview so it is usually an elimination process only though actually we say that it is not an elimination process but an assimilation process it ends up with an elimination process only. I would respond to that I would definitely respond to that many a times what happens that we that our students go for a sit for a particular interview because of the package their mindset may not be in concurrence with the with the industry they are vouching for and that is why perhaps they don't make it the cut. I will give you an example what happens today in today's world our generation has moved up the next generation has moved really fast they go for the package they sit for the companies which they sit for the companies which give them the maximum package they sit for those interviews they do not take into account whether they have the aptitude for it or not the mark shows that they have the aptitude but whether they have the attitude for it or not gets a shape in the interviews tell me one thing if those people are selected will they be happy out there in the interviews is money everything no the attrition rate today suggests that people students specially leave the leave the organization within six months also a mechanical engineer an electrical engineer gets into TCS and then what happens he has to do with dole out all those computational things he has never done done that so some of them would definitely leave if they don't like it and that is why I said it is an assimilation process out there they want you to go for the companies the kind of job which not just matches the attitude and your financial things but your attitude as well I know of several students and they have made brilliant marks in life by not just going for the biggies the best of companies and that is why again I would reiterate that it is an assimilation process it is not an elimination it is just that you cannot yourself think what you have to do in future they perhaps through the interviews do the job for you just stop looking it looking at it as an elimination process start thinking of it as an assimilation process that will hurt the students less my question is at the end of interview many times candidate is asked question whether you want to ask any question do you have any question to ask us that is the interviewer sometimes ask so students get confused whether to answer whether to ask any question and if any question to be asked what type of questions to be asked to interviewer this is something which again requires I think you would have come across my slides where I have said rears and research know something about the organization so if you have known something about the organization it will be easier for you to frame a question towards the end of it if you so wish to what you can ask is different what you should not ask is the pay band that is something with some of the students do ask and they should not okay because it is you know very early at a very early stage so that should not be done unless and until you have something valid to question please do not question just politely graciously say no thank you so much if you go through the slides I have mentioned out there you should be gracious enough if you really like something about the interviewer maybe you have messed it up but if you have really liked something about the interview the way it has progressed do compliment the interviewer about it after all they are also human and they would like to be complimented on their style and you know on imparting some knowledge to you so that is something which could be done friends it's been wonderful interacting with you I have learned something I hope you may have gathered something from me as well one of our very venerated professor had said that effective communication which is also known as soft skills or technical skill is actually life skill and I go by him hundred percent it is life skill and we must tell our students that fine group discussion and interview skills need to be mastered in order to get into that particular organization you have set your heart for hearts upon at the same time they would be with you throughout your life when you would be negotiating some terms with your spouse with your children with your parents at that particular juncture also these are going to benefit you so these are not mere communication skills they are life skills these are life skills and therefore we should not single-mindedly work on them as part or aspects of selection process we should bear the mega picture the bigger picture how group discussion helps us how interview skills the aspects the tenets of interview skills would benefit us in our lives we are nearing our schedule time it's been a real pleasure interacting with you much that I would have liked to take all your questions the time does not permit me so I have been told that you could post your questions and perhaps I could get the chance to be with you once again through the questions thank you so much for being with me thank you so much for being with IIT Bombay