Good evening, everybody. We're gonna get started a little bit early. So hit the like button hit the share We're gonna be with you shortly. We're just getting our screens organized and getting our speakers ready So bear with us for one moment. We'll be right with you Good evening everybody tonight We're going to be having a juicy debate between Mark and Hussein Islam versus secular humanism which is best for society and Mark Reed is gonna start us out. So 10 minutes mark and the floor is all yours. Thanks for being here Thank you so much Ryan. Just one sec. I'll just share my screen mate as usual Now we go We all good you are good to go Thank you so much. Thank you for being here and listening to me Thank you to Ryan for moderating and of course the same for coming in and Yeah, this is about secular humanism versus Islam So I'll go through a few tenants of where I see each sitting Especially focusing on secular humanism because that is my side or the proposition that I'm putting down So secular basically first off. What is secular humanism now? Humanist beliefs have been held in common with many civilizations. They're found in ancient Greeks philosophy, especially pre-socratic philosophers Protagoras who lived in Athens in 440 BC put forth some fundamental human humanist ideas Only fragments of his work supplies survive what we've got people are Epicurus who sort of went through a sort of secular Hold of morality and understanding the world without appealing to any gods or any superstitions of Greek mythology there are also elements of humanism throughout Things like the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. So it's a philosophy or particular belief system that maintains morals and ethics are possible by understanding humanity is placed in the natural world and are not derived from any dogma handed down by any religious institution or belief in a deity a Rejection is made by secular humanism that people are not inherently good or evil and Evaluates what is good or bad by studying the effect our actions have on society and the rest of humanity Although there's several those schools of thought regarding humanism the core principles of human rights and moral codes that all humanists embrace Now the principles of humanism were summarized in the Amsterdam Declaration which outlined the general principles that secular humanists follow We accept that morality is inherent to the human condition We affirm the worth and dignity of the individual and the right of every human So the greatest possible freedom and the fullest possible development compatible with the rights of others We hold that personal liberty must be combined with the responsibility to society We recognize that we are part of nature and accept our responsibility for the impact we have on the natural world We are convinced the solutions to the world's problems lie in human reason and human action We value all sources of individual joint fulfillment that harm no other and we believe that in personal development through the cultivation of creation Creative and ethical living is a lifelong undertaking Therefore, we we appreciate artistic create creativity imagination and transforming power of the arts Though we believe that that a commitment to human well-being is ageless our particular opinions and not based on Revelations fixed for all time meaning they can change over time We're committed to the unfettered expression it can change of ideas to seek cooperate With people of different beliefs who share our values and the cause of building a better world that's sort of a summation from the Amsterdam declaration just to sum up What what what they think and what we think? So it's a culmination of long traditions of reasoning about meaning and ethics the source of Influration of many of the world's Humanitarians and artists and it's interwoven with the rise of modern science Essentially, humanism takes to the best of what humanity has learnt over its journey and melded now and into the future With our best understanding of the effect our actions have on society and our planet in general The goals of secular humanism have produced flourishing human societies and encouraged development of humanity for the benefit of all not just humanists Understanding that personal liberty must be balanced with a responsibility to society and a responsibility to all humans regardless of race sex Country of humans everywhere. It's understood based on understanding the needs of humans and it uses methodological naturalism which is science to make observations on how humans are affected by the choice you make It's important to note. However, that while science can tell us how something works It's up to us to determine whether it's good or bad for ourselves. We maintain Maintain that we do not need anything other than ourselves and our rationality to apply morality reject superstition and wishful thinking Although understanding that we don't have the right to change or attempt to change people's beliefs by force We never seek to impose ourselves on the world if we wish people to acknowledge our beliefs We have to acknowledge theirs in this this secular humanism is completely compatible to any Ideology or religion which seeks the betterment of humanity in society So these are sort of the benefits to society that we can go through it doesn't make an appeal to any Authority so it doesn't lay down dictates or dogmatic edicts all it does is say to guide us to to what is best for humans It makes no claim to inherent moral superiority and rather judges ethical actions by the effect on humans and other society So it can take in things from other Ideologies other religions other worldviews because it doesn't claim to have a moral superiority of them and has no need to prove that moral superiority Humanism is flexible and acknowledges that knowledges and and and understanding is an ongoing process that will last far beyond after we're gone So it's compatible with any Ideology that promotes human well-being and that that's one of the major strengths of secular humanism So what's Islam according to the traditional account the Islamic prophet Muhammad Can got what we Muslims considered to be divine revelations calling for submission to one God and it Islam literally means submission but this was based upon the expectation of the imminent last judgment where there's a Story about paradise or seven hells for all of humanity So if Islam main submission, what's it submission to well it means to submit to the will of Allah of will of a God Although it is the interpretation of man that all we have to understand what the will of the God is There's no dictates from a God and said Muslims argue over what God's want There's no consistent goal for Islam except God's will and with no one to clarify that what that is There's no goal except the interpretation of men Whose interpretation seems to know inside with what they want So the problems with the Quran I'm just going to point out a few maybe we can discuss them and problems that I as a secular Humanist has with the Quran and what it advocates for First off the Quran is misogynistic This is a verse and Nisa, which is that the women's verses that sort of point out that You know your your daughter only gets Half of what the sons get when when you die I would pose it as well. What if the daughter is more capable? What if the the son is reckless with finance the Quran makes no distinction between this? It simply says the the son gets more. I think that this is harmful for humanity I think that we should be acknowledging who is better to have a inheritance rather than go with What what a verse says Shouldn't the parent decide who is better to receive it Um, this is the the verse on protectors and maintainers of women and if the the woman Disobeys the man That they they eventually sort of ostracized them from bed and then beat them Or albeit lightly is the the verse translation Why is it that the women are the ones that obey? Why can't the man be beaten? It never says that and sort of says that women are less to men This is something that I have a problem with This is this is where if your woman's guilty of ludeness basically you you imprison them Confine them in house until death or until Allah who who doesn't seem to make any kind of Opinion on the subject ordains them for some other way Generally, it's up to a man who's put in charge a Sufi or cleric to decide that that punishment is done However, if if two men A guilty of ludeness punish them both But if they repent and amend leave them alone, which is different than how you are treating a woman It's unfair in society It's a supports ostracizing the the family This verse says that if your father's and your brother's or friends if they prefer disbelief to faith The take not of them or don't be their friends. It really does alienate families This is backed up by the application of equal unequal tax in the jizya thirty-second essentially. Oh, sorry 30 second to produce 30 oh Okay, so It creates a stratified society where people are subservient to others or created less equally than others and it's generally bad for society It can also be seen that jizya as a manipulated way to make people pay more if they're not and is Muslim so they're encouraged or you know, I would say call worse to become a Muslim Through this tax But the brutal punishments thieves have their hands cut off people that fight against Or wage war against Allah are basically brutally chopped apart So so these brutal punishments, I would feel have no no place in society But the verses haven't been abrogated. They haven't been taken away. They are still in the Quran And they're still a valid part of the Quran So we've got it. Okay. Thank you. I sorry to cut it short. I ran out of time, but thank you very much for hearing Yeah, no problems already cut you a little bit short there mark. We just went over the time I get some might get some time to go back over those notes as we continue on and hey everybody Thanks for being here. We appreciate you hanging out here modern-day debate. Definitely hit the like button hit the share I'll also let you know that our speakers are going to be linked in the description below Along with our crowdfunded to our debate that's coming up here. We have a little event So we have tickets for that in the description But if you check out our crowdfund because you know, I'm not going to be there I can't make it but you still want to support us for five dollars us You can support us without a perk but everything after that you get a perk So ten dollars you get your name the credits twenty five dollars you get up post it a postcard. 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Thank you all for being here Salam alaykum to anyone who's Muslim and you know inshallah this goes well So I'm gonna start off with verse 45 23 From the Quran it says have you seen he who has taken his God His own desire and Allah has sent him astray due to knowledge and has set up seal upon his hearing in his heart and Put over his vision of veil So who will guide him after a lot then will you not be reminded? so this is essentially quoting Like a thing that is a memified Throughout society. So people will have essentially like what they call like the God whole and so they'll fill it up with Any sort of type of idol? so Islam we believe that no one is really an atheist everyone intakes and makes an idol out of anything Something it could be drugs alcohol money ideology nationalism racism Racial supremacy that is so And atheists like to claim however that they're free of dogma But I believe after this debate. I'll be able to show you that secular humanism in a way is actually a dogma and a religion so and it's not objectively morally grounded where religion is so Anyway, so the crown stated this 1400 years ago and It knows possibly obviously I believe that it would know better about human beings than atheists want to admit So as far as you know, where am I getting that? This is a dogma. So there are several studies as well as social scientists and psychologists who confirm this point Charles Taylor wrote that any transcendental idea which would include secular humanism Would be a religion Emilia Durkheim also wrote this as well in the US Supreme Court Actually stated secular humanism as a religion as much as it probably pains atheists Young argued that in the undiscovered self that you can't take away a man's God But only give him others in return Young goes on to say that the state can take place of the God and that's why seen from this angle Socialistic taterships are essentially religions into them of themselves State slavery is a form of worship and the policy of the state is exalted to a creed and the later becomes a demigod Beyond good and evil and we can see this played out throughout history. So Anyone who thinks that differently would be labeled like a heretic per young and per like this ideology so in a way that Both people can obviously be fanatical, right? So there are definitely like more religious atheists that are less as nice as Mark per se so Young's theory is called the law of conservation of religious instinct And it's a social science version of Newton's law and the conservation of momentum Religions never actually go away. It just goes somewhere else Islam predicted this 1400 years ago in America today We actually see this in the form of ideology and there's plenty of paper papers on this from Forbes Atlantic Vox and they talk about how human beings turn to political ideologies as a form of dogma and religion and Then I would argue atheists do this with secular humanism because without God There's no objective morality and thus there is no good or bad actually so We can merely look at It being subjective flavors of ice cream if you will Good and moral is going to be different from one another Mark, I believe even agreed to this in the beginning He's just saying that we can maybe empirically decide what is good or bad But that just leads to constant one consequentialism and there's problems in that as well So moral relativism claims of what is truly correct outside the individual Can't be made it's contingent upon individuals and universe for progress is subjective and it's incoherent incomprehensible and paradoxical secular humanism attempts to affirm the intrinsic value of humanity while rejecting religion and superstition however, Paul Kurtz the found father of secular humanism Even admits that he essentially trying to discombine a moral system built on the principles of free inquiry Ethics based upon reason commitment to science democracy and freedom every one of those Values though is ungrouted in the world of naturalism and materialism as well as scientific determinism So a general moral obligation requires transcended value Otherwise morality is a sophisticated herd instinct or social construct a hobby or a mere opinion So you can't actually oblige anyone to do anything. So a problem big problem with atheists Often they'll say you ought to do something But why can they tell me to do that and why should I ought to even care about humanity or the outcomes of humanity? There's a lot of presuppositions in these in secular humanisms. So according to Ephesus Peter Singer We can't humanity is not sacred the post human humanists if you will moral system Unsurprisingly permits if the side and be ciality Camila Nietzsche also accepted that without God There's only nihilism and they both come to different conclusions. So He realizes for Nietzsche without God famously renouncing conventional ethics and proposing He proposed a value system based on self-realization and power. So there's no such thing As good and bad or what someone should ought to do. I should say moral like truth. There's good and bad to him He influenced who co who is the pioneer post modernism which categorically rejected the notion of truth Essentially power alone animates every dimension of life and society Jean Paul star admits as well that essentially we're just human beings making it up The implication there would be that it's not actually real So Camus wrote as well that humanism is a false ideal and in reality, it's meaningless They're only deluding themselves and not facing the true reality of a world without God evil does not exist Things just happen and then you die So it's pretty bleak But that would be the true outcome of atheism I would argue so Nietzsche against a secular humanism is a byproduct of Christianity Mostly why it arose out of the Renaissance and the Western world and also attacks secular humanism as its presuppositions Are just hangovers of a belief in God and once God is eradicated the belief in human beings would follow the same way I would like to have mark explore this and see, you know, why should we care about humanity? Why should we care about human flourishing? And then there's some interesting things when we get into democracy So some Islamic governments use democracy which secular humanists claim to care about to elect Sharia law and then all of a sudden they're getting sanctioned and bombed in drone strike by Obama and other people who claim to follow you the UN Charter and sexual secular humanism So it's a very interesting and I have a lot more to go over like my problems with like materialism You know how the materialist World view has led to like Nazism and communism and how they argued in a way their secular religions per sociologists So why why is secular humanism the religion in a way? We should follow when clearly other people chose white nationalism Nazism Communism Marxism Lenism Maoism pick any political ideology and they could just choose to follow them. So All right, would that be the end of your intro? Yeah, he's having a drink everybody. So let us Excellent. All right. Well, thank you for your introduction doctor. He's statement there who's saying I'm glad we got it And what we're gonna do now everybody is we're gonna kick it into open discussion We appreciate you guys all being here at modern day debate. We are a neutral platform hosting debates on science politics and religion We hope you feel welcome and we'll kick it over to mark to start our open discussion in response to what he just heard Yes, I feel like a lot of the sort of leverages of these people that you're leveraging against me aren't actually secular humanists in fact a long way from it last Saturday was John Paul Chartres was probably a sort of Existential nihilist would be the proper description for him So it feels like to me that you're sort of saying hey all atheists atheists are this and atheists are that but not all Atheists are secular humanists. No, no, I'm fully I'm fully agreeing to that I'm saying that they're they are alleging that secular humanism is not the When you when you take atheism to its conclusion It is essentially just existentialism nihilism or in commute's case absurdity I'm arguing I don't think that's true. They're not saying secular humanism is a is a like a logical conclusion They're they're essentially saying what I'm saying is that it's a bunch of presuppositions with no proof without God Well, sure, everybody makes presuppositions and and I don't know why we would need there's no proof with God In your your sort of presuppositions here So I don't know why that would be a problem, but you know Hang on hang on hang on you pointed out people like the Nazis and things but the Nazis were mostly Catholic and You know, I think that sort of Hitler had his weird occult almost Germanic sort of weird occult religion But he certainly wasn't an atheist and he certainly wasn't a secular humanist So I think when we're talking about secular humanism, we've got to talk about secular humanists not Homunists and fascists and other people that certainly were not secular humanists So do you seem to be leveraging just I mean I could point out Muslims that have done terrible terrible things You know, I could go through a list if you'd like, but that doesn't mean that's all Muslims and Islam Have to fall into this this one category. I'm not I'm not saying Any every secular humanist is a is a Nazi or my point and in showing these groups and some So so there is a debate right if Nazis were truly a Christian you know followers and There's some Nazi ideology supposedly that says that actually religion is bad and in the way of what they want to do Actually, so I'm saying that's debated. My point was is that if you take away God, right? Okay, it's not It's not That the initial conclusion would follow that we should all accept secular humanism Does that make sense? Well? Well, no, of course not, but you said you can't take away God, right? The take away God part was that is that humanism derives That human like humans are intrinsically good because of God like that's where it's starting. No, no, no, no, no Absolutely incorrect as I said in my opening humans neither say that Human beings are intrinsically good or evil, right? Not intrinsically You're not saying that humans are intrinsically good. It is the actions that we base whether it's good or bad on So that's just wrong They're not intrinsically good to you. Why should I care about their flourishing because they can do good things and we Yeah, why should I care evidence for that? Well, because you're human So what? Well, do you have empathy? I do but maybe someone else does it Well, I mean usually when we're maybe I only have empathy within my group because Psychological papers show that human beings are herd creatures and they only care about tribalism So for example like a lot of They may not be racist per se, but they definitely only want America to flourish in America to flourish versus say other nations, so it doesn't seem like what Secular humanism hinges on or even presupposes is actually true So for example when you were talking about it hold on hold on hold on you've gone through multiple points there Let's go back America is not a secular humanist nation. Let's face it. It's not a humanist nation at all No, it doesn't matter it may it may operate with some Secular humanist principles and it is a secular nation, but it's the humanism that we're talking about The whole point of humanism is to acknowledge that all humans are valuable that all humans have certain inalienable rights And so if you're saying hey I might not agree that those humans have those rights and those humans shouldn't be then you're not a humanist Like you're basically violated that the entire definition of humanism if you're if you're separating into well I just care about this one country then you're you're an Americanist, right that you're not a humanist I'm not I'm not saying I'm not I never was saying that they're humanists I'm saying that your presuppositions are not actually true and reflective of the real world So you are literally just preaching religious dogma. So for example positions. Yes So for example, you said do humans strive to be rational? Well, actually that's debatable So Robert Zajac said that decisions are made with little to no cognitive process and we make actually judgments first and then seek to justify those judgments by rationalization and then choice Blendness Experiments where subjects are tricked into believing that they made decisions that they did not actually make but none the less explain them as if they did There's also like human involved Let's examine that you don't get to just brush aside that and keep on going so what better way than rationality would you like to use to evaluate decisions I Mean me being a Muslim it would be under God's law, which is an objective law You know, but you would obviously not agree with that. Is it objective? If God exists come from so does does the war? Well, it comes from an outside source.  Well, what God says is moral What God says is so he decides what is moral and what is not so how is that objective? It still starts to think it's too objective as it's infinite with them Well, it doesn't matter. He's still got a stance, right?  Where does it come from then? So, I mean, do you mean like because there's a whole philosophy on this So like the argumentation from morality where they talk about how God is the source of objective morality If morality is objective and absolute then God must exist morality is objective and absolute Therefore God must exist like they literally talk about this. So yeah, I don't think You're saying that we should use science There are moral stances, but not moral facts Let's let you sort of wrap up his idea there So my point to be but go back to what we're talking about is that humans strive to be rational. That's an assumption So I can I can argue that human beings throughout the real world you see don't make rational decisions all the time Not humanists strive to be rational Yes, I'm not saying every single particular individual human does but I'm saying that humanists strive to be rational and Rationality appears to be the best way to evaluate whether something is true or whether something is not to any certain proposition Put forward is true or not true I mean, you've got verses in the Quran that you unless you agree cutting off the hands of thieves is a good thing that you've evaluated and Decided whether you want to implement them or not Yes, yeah, you want to cut the hands off? Yeah, there's parameters on how it happens Yes, and then you can you can side with mercy, but yeah, it's to make examples and in the long run it may be better for society I mean I can use consequentialism to argue those as well. I can use dentinology or Continism essentially to argue those as well Virtue ethics. No, not virtue ethics Continism yes, okay So what about the surah about baiting a woman if she disagrees with you do you agree with that? It's not beating a woman. It says discipline. There's a difference between discipline and like beating Mark I think we would both agree to that right To give discipline Then I don't think that's a very problematic But if you're describing it as beating and you're using that word then I would say yeah beating is not allowed under Sharia Well, it depends because the earlier translations all describe it as lightly beating your wife But as as we've gotten to the modern era It's kind of changed to Discipline but that is understood in most of the Muslim world that that discipline does involve some sort of physical Admonishment for the the wife. Yes to show that you're mad Yeah, so if you are with some people don't need to do that at all because they're the the best example of husbands Which is Muhammad peace be upon him did he never had to strike one of his wives However, some men are weaker men and they can't do that So they may have to discipline their wife or children because they're supposed to be the leaders of the familiar role in Islam and there's a perfect. There's a Sensible reason for that You know, if you know what if psychologically speaking if in general women are more agreeable and Then then what's the problem with that like your peace again? All these things are presuppositions through the secular world view which don't actually hold up when you examine them in any type of psychological way sociological way No, no, let's get back to the actual subject They're not presuppositions the presuppositions that I make a very basic and then through rationality I've come to that which is Excuse me excuse me. Hey an inductive process which may in fact be sort of based upon a foundation of Rationality and and working up to it, but it's not a presupposition. I haven't entered this into oh, well This is just you know something that I'm deciding ahead of time that I don't have evidence for I have evidence that this kind of Treating women this badly is bad for society. That's not a presupposition So if I provide study here's it here's another good example So if I provide studies that show that Islamic marriages are better than secular marriages Would you then agree that Islam is better? What does invite better? Well, so again, this goes into how it's subjective But if I say that you know having society with strong marriages is the boat is a the most important value and then this type of Way to behave Increases that then that's providing that type of utility, right? Do you mean that Islam has less divorces? Yes, we could argue that yeah, yes because it needs Dispensation from clerics and authority figures in order to gain a divorce who often don't give that divorce So that's sort of what we call in statistics lurking variables where you're basically saying Hey, because statistics are lower. They must be better marriages But that's not necessarily the case because Islam makes it more difficult to obtain a divorce So a lot of the time what you have is unhappy people within that marriage But they can't leave and they feel it's onus on them to stay because they just can't get a divorce add to that all of the you know if we want to bring up some of the horrible stuff going in Islam are more than happy to like the gentle mutilation of girls and the Horrible honor killings that go on in the Islamic world like it is that something you support honor killings That's not even in Tria. So that's just a backwards cultural thing. So anyways, so You still haven't answered on humans striving to be rational. So you admit that not all human beings do this Well, I think humans always think think there's Sort of being rational we have do have sort of norms for rationality We know that when someone is sort of not thinking in a way that is sort of sane and instead thinking in a in a way that is distorted kind of thing, but Besides the presupposition of the logical absolutes which lead lead to rationality which lead to an Implementation of this this rationality and we can disagree on what that is I think that all humans do strive to be rational As far as that they understand it. So is it a problem that essentially like Do you believe secular humanism can tell someone how they ought to behave? It's like let me answer me ask that Yes Okay, how if it's subjective because Islam obviously right we say we have objective values or moral values So we can easily tell that right but for example, right Biden and other Den people within the United States, right? They would say sanctioning Brunei a tiny country that is just trying to escape its third world poverty Should be sanctioned because they democratically elected to have Sharia law So is that a good decision or a bad decision and why that's a bad decision? Okay, because I've already said like because secular humanists don't impose themselves on anybody We don't demand that you Adhere to secular humanism the way that Islam generally does We don't we don't kill apostates as has been going on in the Islamic world or any punishment for changing religion or you know sort of handing in Secular humanism for other things. It's based upon an understanding that because you and I are human and if we want humans to flourish then the best way to do that is By helping each other Now, but so let it hang on hang on hang on hang on if you don't care about human well-being Then yeah, I can't objectively say you have to care about human well-being I can even say if you care about your own well-being It's in your best interest to do it and that's a that's a moral ought But if you don't care about your own well-being and you don't care about society and don't care about humans There's there's nothing I see in the universe objectively that makes you have to do that Okay. Well, so You could argue though, however that Biden is what Biden is doing is actually good for human flourishing It's the same reason that people said that dropping like the atomic bomb was useful So like they're saying that the consequences is better for humanity overall than the Other option essentially right so with the consequentialism and utilitarianism you can essentially justify anything And my point was that is and here's our an irony right when you're talking about like Sharia So Sharia says spying is a crime spying is illegal Unlike NATO in America who will spy on its own citizens, right?  You've said consequentialist. You've said utilitarianist But what you haven't said is humanist and I think that's on purpose I think you're leaving that out because you know damn well that a humanist would never agree to that that thing Which is wiping out humanity if your goal is the well-being of humans How is bombing somebody achieving that goal? It isn't Right, like this is the whole song and dance that we're doing. We're talking about secular humanism But Hussain just wants to talk about secularism and and sort of this over here and this over here You're not actually hitting the humanism which is saying hey humans. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on Humans have intrinsic rights that cannot be violated. I don't know what you were listening to when I did my presentation Because it went through that humans have human rights So if you believe in human rights, you're not bombing the innocent You're not killing people offhand and you keep dancing around the humanist part of it and saying secularism and and this and and communism and and fascism All right, let's let them respond to what you just said there So you can be a humanist and believe that these these will achieve a greater end goal for human flourishing And it may not be always saying killing but you could say oh, well, we're killing an enemy combatant Oh, the collateral damage. That's just okay. You can argue that as a human you can easily argue that same thing with What is it because it's not directly killing people per se But you can argue that as a humanist we should sanction other Because other rights are more important it even says in your thing that democracy is important But then when people try and elect democratic democratically elected governments, for example, like in egypt or brunei or In any like islamic country where they elected a muslim government all of a sudden it becomes problematic So that's why i'm saying these values that you guys actually hold are at odds Well, what are the the hilarious um The hilarious thing is you're claiming to have objective morality and that islam gives you objective morality Yet what you've quoted is the american government, which isn't a secular humanist government In fact, most of the people in the government are christians You can argue the government secular, but certainly not the individuals making the decisions and they're certainly not humanist um And and the whole point is that you're saying hey because islam says that this is this is a um You can't kill innocent people. Well, obviously Obviously a a islamic person has never killed an innocent person in the history of islam because that's objective That's objective and that prevents us But it's unfortunate that sort of all the suicide bombings all of the terrible things done by islamic people They obviously didn't get your objective morality It seems to me that it's all subjective even though you claim it is objective. No, that's just people being bad muslims It all depends on your interpretation It's something that comes with islam though, doesn't it are they Muslims or are they not muslims? so They can still be muslim and believe in uh like one god and all these things But they can be sinful and that's within the islamic paradigm. Now. Did they commit crimes? Should they be a um Held accountable for it. Yes, sure. Um, but that can be the same thing I'm sure would you say like certain people who claim to be secular humanists? But then they do something bad for example, or they make the wrong calculated choice Um, like you say the same thing then Sure Yeah, but we don't have a book pointing out how it is good to cut the hands of people to to Um dismember people We don't have a book that says it is it is good to imprison a woman for life if she commits a sinful behavior We don't have a book that says all of these horrible things to to do to people I mean, do you agree that if someone attacks islam and it's very Subjective what attacking islam means isn't it that they should be dismembered with their limbs torn away Well, so there's plenty of like testiers as well as you can like review ottoman empire on these Hadood punishments that you're talking about and they're not into the crime yet So no, of course. I'm not saying they're not what I'm saying is that within like islamic governments and cala fights, right? They did not actually like impose these as much as you're trying to say and they had rules within in context within When they should do it and some of it would be on to the interpretation of scholars and there's you know Debate within that but this is the in a way the same thing for Secular humanism, but some of these people may just be bad. They're just sinful and abusing their power and that's not islamic I wouldn't blame Say you like islam on that when it says it's against it in islam So is the quran a moral guide? Is it a perfect moral guide? I would argue.  Stay to cut the hands off thieves and to tear apart people who attack islam And then say well that person's being sinful for doing exactly that if it's a perfect moral guide So the the context of the one where it says attack the people who are islam is in war so It's just you're like And I can go through the ones you asked like the no goal of islam like I wrote some of those down So I can go over that too Wait, so it's okay to dismember people if they're enemy competence If you're in a war and they're attacking you yes, but you can't kill prisoners of war So if they surrender then actually islam does have guidelines on that So you can read there's some entire books on it like just war theory within islam and how you you know funny enough We uh, we started that so But you'll agree that it's moral because the quran says so to cut hands from people that steal cut their hands on Yeah, I don't I don't know how that's so problematic to have rules and boundaries for society And then harsh punishments to make examples of people and to make so make it so that people don't do these actions And in fact it may be good for the thief because they'll never do it again Has anyone ever been convicted of slavery wrong wrongly? In islamic countries In any countries Possibly, yeah I'm not yeah, so how do you give them their hands back when you find out that you're wrong? Well, if they're wrong, then there's usually retribution. It's the same thing. America accidentally retribution Yeah, like a restitution. Excuse me wrong word, but it's the same thing guy with no hands Yeah, how would you feel if you were wrongly convicted of committing a crime like that?  Sorry. We were wrong You have a bit of money for it. I mean it would be one I'm pretty sure for that punishment. There has to be like no How do I say Not very much doubt like a lot of these pun these punishments require multiple witnesses so The example you're giving wouldn't really apply It's the same thing when they talk about homosexuality So you think you think you can get and and that islam gets just as perfect does it that it never makes a mistake Regardless of the Islamic law not not Muslims Islamic law never makes a mistake No, I'm saying Islamic law can be perfect, but human beings can be flawed. I'm living in the world So of course I'm I'm open to saying that some Muslims are not are less than Islamic if you will right, but you're living in a world where you're again pretty presupposing a lot And I don't think it's true. That's why I said like Well, actually there's a lot of evidence that says human beings aren't rational There's a lot of evidence that shows well human beings aren't always actually the most ethical Um, and then there's also philosophically people who entirely disagree And so you're trying to argue that you're not rational. So you're trying to argue that you're not rational No, I think I'm rational but I'm saying Some who thinks and you admitted I think I think we're rational I mean Who thinks we're not rational then if you don't think we're if you think we're rational and I think we're rational Then why are you even bringing this up? No, I think me and you Right are rational. I don't think every human being is rational And I'm open to being disproven and you know, again, there's all these studies And I would love to learn more about it on it So I'm bringing this up to to show you that actually are human beings rational. That's open for debate Okay, I I then I fail to see like I think humans are generally rational You think human beings are generally rational. I don't but you've sort of veered away from the whole idea of sort of How you carry out these punishments and then Make restitutions for the wrongs that you've done like why not just not do them in the first place except you've got a book Which basically says to do this to people and you're stuck in that thing You keep them sort of accusing me of presuppositions without really finding out what my presuppositions are Yet I could say hey, you're making presuppositions that that a god is giving an objective morality If the morality is so objective, why does everybody disagree on it? And who has the objective morality? Who is disagreeing on it? I mean like with the Sunnis and shiites have been fighting for she also like uh, I mean that's Well, 1400 hang on 1400 years they've been disagreeing and it really comes down to who Inherited the power to interpret the laws from Muhammad So when he died basically a sect said the the sunnis said that it was A a elective process which elected the people to interpret the laws And the the shaiite said that there were descendants of Muhammad who who should interpret the laws So not only do you not have an objective interpretation of the laws But islam can't decide on who should give the interpretation of the laws I don't want to try to They're a minority sect like that. Is it even relevant? So I don't know why you're using them and then so You know supposedly don't even believe in the sahaba and curse them and stuff like that as well As they think that some of them go as far even to say that Muhammad You know Ali actually may have been the prophet which is like So, uh, I do want to inject here as much as we would love to probably talk about you know, the variations amongst different muslims When we were talking about punishments there, you did start talking a little bit. You said something about In the case of homosexuals, which would be a topic that would be related to what's best for society so Let's try to kick it into a discussion more about the societal aspect So I'll put it back to you Hussein because you were about to Make a point on that earlier Yeah, so I mean one thing that could be said is like so a secular most Secular humanist probably endorse, you know, the new modern, you know, human rights We keep discovering as it expands to trans and LGBTQ IQ stuff So It'd be interesting to hear why all of a sudden we should just expand these rights or how it's good for society Or human flourishing as mark likes to say So because the argument could be like if you use if you're a Kantian you could say, okay, if we will all of society To be homosexual Then there would be no longer any human beings or human society because it would end within a generation So therefore we should not have any people being gay You know Now Islam is a bit more new is is says it's a sin But it does separate public and private life. So it's really weird That a lot of the people and I'm not saying you're doing this mark, but online They'll have like this very Islamophobic nature of Of what Islam says There is a due punishment But again, it's like within witnesses. It has to be done in public It's essentially being separating public and private life. So what you do within your own home Is private? Obviously you should try not to sin But what you do in public and spreading corruption That goes on to the like the atheist comment in a way You're spreading corruption within the land. So that is where it becomes problematic and all cultures Do this so All cultures think for example, France right now just banned the abeya abeya And they want to for and for preserve french culture. Hold it. That's another point. You're going on to your gish galloping I'm not saying you're going on from point to point to point to point Yeah, you've gone down to france and sort of what's happening there. Let's address lgbtqa so humanist says that all humans are Luntrinsically bad or good and there is no like we should accept these people for who they are what they're doing They're they're not harming anybody and I don't see how they're harming you say they bring corruption to the land Well, who decides what that is that that's entirely a subjective thing Who's deciding what corruption is and what corruption is not? Um, it's still just subjective that just up to who decides who interprets What the what the quran says about it? Um, and and we're not discovering these human rights. These human rights have been with us I mean in ancient greek days there were say the golden band of thieves who are made up of of exclusively male homosexual couples and they happen to you know fight for thebian City states and in fact defeated the Spartans in battle So this isn't a new thing. That's just swept in the last few years. This is something that's been around for ages You're not pressed I'm not saying that people with these tendencies have never existed I'm saying that discovering quote-unquote these human rights and the ever expansion of human rights is something. It's a modern paradigm um it's We can I'll ignore the greek comment, but there's tons of greek philosophers who argued that uh Homosexual acts are pretty problematic and wanted to ban it as well. Um, so it's it's uh Again, this kind of goes back to the crux of the thing. So if you agree secular humanism Is in a way subjective how What can you how can you even tell islamic governments what to do? Or you're saying you shouldn't so um Yeah, so so um So if it's subjective, I we don't impose ourselves on others. So we don't say hey, you have to do this I like like islam generally does it. Um, but i'm saying what is best for society is not islam It's uh every single civilization out there, which is run by sharia law is absolutely horrible places to live Um, they are brutal Places that that you know like like in the middle east Well, the well, yeah Um, I mean, I must admit it that haven't been for very long but So where is this brutal like that everyone, you know Like where is this brutal sharia law in tunisia in morocco in algeria in egypt In iran in ethiopia where women are currently Yeah, you're selecting three countries three countries out of the entire islamic world and saying this is this is all sharia That's literally what you're doing well, um So also by the way to mention the goal part you're you're mentioning goals Hang on hang on hang on hang on so the most populous muslim country in the world Is indonesia, I believe isn't that correct? Yeah, there's tons of asian societies as well Sure, sure. Um, they're they're currently um sort of having a brutalizing the the papanioginians Over the border but the places that you're talking about that that are Yeah, muslim aren't exactly these paradigms of understanding and compassion like you're betraying them And and I can point to the islamic countries which are beheading people like saudi arabia or Um, um cutting hands off thieves and things like that So the idea that it's just this rare thing is not necessarily the case And it happens because you happen to have a book which says it is entirely permissible to do so and you have acknowledged You would mutilate people that you believe not not that you actually know for sure But you believe have committed a crime and if they object You will compensate them for their lost Sorry, it's a prayer. Um All right, um, did you need a moment or uh, you could Uh Yeah, can I I or just mark I have because I I was gonna Yeah, how long do you need there? No, it's like it takes like 10 minutes. It's not that bad. It was more like, um In the interest like how much more time do we have like how long is this discussion? Are we almost done with the discussion? We actually are almost done with the open discussion Then we're gonna whip into the q and a so we got, uh about 15 minutes more of the open discussion Okay, because if it was gonna end soon then um But um if it's 15 minutes and then the questions are always really long. So let me uh Let me take like a 10 minute five minute break problem. Okay. Yeah, if it's five minutes, that's that's a one. Yeah, that's good We can uh, we can respect that and uh, hussain's gonna be right back there I will switch screens As he pops out Well, there we go. He just put his uh Video off everybody there we go. So we're gonna take a little intermission for a minute here Well, hussain steps out, uh Sorry to everybody that will You know take the little intermission And respect hussain here in the space glad to see 355 watching now Uh, what do you do? Do you have fingers? Do you have toes? Do you have skin with heat? Can you hit the like button? That's always appreciated I would hope so. I mean No, are there any aliens watching that one might be a fascinating debate You're the moderator right now. Look at that. I gotta switch things up. There we go. We're all fixed up Oh, we lost your focus there mark Not in the debate. I mean your camera Yeah, no, I'm aware and It might have something on it, but See, this is the perfect time for this to happen because I can let james know at the end of this to Cut this little piece out and then we'll kick it right back into the debate but uh Yeah, I'm glad to see everybody hanging out there mark's fixing up his camera If anybody is in the chat and they're not sure what's going on We're just taking a five minute break. Uh hussain is praying So that will be Just a few minutes. We'll be getting right back to our discussion There you are. I haven't made that harsh on he's praying. I haven't made that harsh on him. I think Oh, you had to you couldn't help it. Well, I have to let him know that you said so, you know What are you talking about? I'm an atheist. I can make any jokes about religion that I want. I have that right. Um Oh, look and people can joke about about humanism and atheists or what they want to that. That's fine. I get you Well, I will take a moment then just to remind everybody in the chat Oh, hi tongue daddy, you know That's that's quite the arm you got there. Is that your arm? I just got to know Uh, his name's tongue daddy. So Under I wonder what he does in this spare time. Um, let's see. Hold this hanging out. It's sabrik dabra Yeah, I I like it. I always like it when sabrik dabra is hanging out because it for some odd reason I think maybe it's just because uh, they responded to a lot of like black sabbath Judas priesty type conversation, but I always see them in the chat and I'm like That person seems cool JD on youtube. Glad you're hanging out buddy. It's always good to see you big bad mama Also in the chat right now hanging out Love to see it We are going to be back with you guys in just a few moments and like I said, we'll uh, I'll try to get to james And uh cut this out. You want to hear a music solo? And no, I don't have any solos right now I won't I won't put it over to the solo just because if people hear me, you know, whipping through some sick shreds They might think it's the end of the show I wouldn't want that so Just going to remind everybody once again We're just waiting for who's saying to get back and we're going to continue on with our discussion He's taking a little prayer break and we 100% respect the speakers that are on our show So once again hit the like button if you enjoy the neutral platform Join us in our discord, you know anything if you're hanging out there I see you are actually you just put it in there Just tagged our discord. So, uh, you know, if you guys have discord if you're cool like normies normal people Uh, check out the uh, check out the link Let's see here as well. I can also remind everybody But all our wicked perks. So, uh, yeah, if you can donate 100 us one-on-one zoom chat with james Uh, and you can tell them all about how you can't stand seeing my face. All right. Hussein is back Yeah, everybody welcome back. Hussein we are going to continue on with the debate Um, that's pretty quick there. I hope you didn't feel rushed Uh, and thank you for being back. Uh, Hussein have the discussion No, no problem. I heard I uh, yeah anyways, uh Who was I gonna say? Oh, yeah. So, um Uh, in a way, I think maybe we agree mark. Uh, it sounds like you're pretty libertarian in a sense Where you're just like oh people can do in a way whatever they want. Um in Gold the gold Islam essentially is like it's a moral goal. It's a self Like trying to achieve higher higher virtues Um, and like be a part of like the obviously the islamic community and like worship and all that stuff so if You want to right as like a secular humanist make a treaty for example, and I think I don't know if isa When you had the debate Talk to you about this, but there is like a whole concept of like islamic treaties. So For example, um, and I was going to go to the gz yet to just to move it along because you were asking about that.  Uh, you can live within your community Jewish people within the autumn like uh the islamic empire Did this like Christianity Christian people did this as well.  Um, almost all sins, right? Like the difference is public publicly endorsing and trying to spread something versus doing it within the privacy of your own home. Um, and For example, even within islamic, uh muslims, I'm sure you've seen like a stark difference between, um processalization so like christians will like go to mosques And they'll try and convert people and then like islamic dawa Um, is really just like posting up somewhere and just people will come and ask questions But we don't really go out and seek. So there's like a big difference here. Um in between that um, so I think like um, you know If anyone is like going out and trying to like find people being gay or something and like Spying on them. That's definitely not allowed within sharia. Um, and then Yeah, so to to end that one and um, did you have anything to say on it before I go So in egypt an atheist was arrested after he had a debate with a muslim and was basically Accused of being disrespectful to the religion So you brought up an example of people who in a democracy they voted in sharia law And my question to you would be how do they vote out sharia law? Uh, if you guys have more people and want to vote it out, I mean In a democracy where islam will see that as not an attack because most most islamic countries would see that as an attack on islam, correct? Yeah, well, obviously they would yeah And it would be the same thing. It would be the same thing. I mean again, um Maybe not but an attack on islam has that idea that you fight against whoever attacks islam, correct Not if you think are you trying to imply that means that I can like make a war with you because that's not what it's saying No, no, but what i'm saying is that Um, a lot of the times when people like in iran when the women have problems with the government and the way they're being treated They have no way to be represented by the government And and the jizya I have a problem with as a humanist because it is a taxation without representation You are taxing people living within your boundaries, but they are getting no representation from the government whatsoever Whereas, um secular humanists would say hey everybody contributing to society should be represented in that society no matter who they are And I think that is do illegal immigrants Get representation or like obviously they don't in practical real world, but i'm just asking like right Do you think illegal immigrants deserve a representation because they peel they pay like sales tax in like the us for example But they don't have they They do they had advocates who lobby the government on their behalf Yeah, but they can't actively participate in any any other way I should say Correct. Yeah Okay, I don't I don't necessarily agree with that. I think that um I mean, it's very very hard in today's paradigm of you know country determination um to say hey Do people who don't sort of who who are legally there who are violating the law should should criminals get um And not to say that illegal immigrants are criminals in the same vein as a violent criminal or something like that But should someone they're breaking the law? Have representation and I would probably say no I don't think somebody that is you know running some kind of illegal operation within the thing. I should get representation So to be intellectually consistent I think that somebody who is illegally in that country and breaking the law should get representation although I do Affirm that they should at least get advocacy on behalf of groups that that Advocate, you know that the group should advocate on behalf of them. I think that is more than reasonable Okay, interesting. I just want to know your opinion on it Okay, well, and I I kind of I think that that refugees and immigrants It's important that they have their basic human rights Maintained as well that that if they they come here they should have um the inalienable human right to write to Food water safety security or all of those things that we we advocate for rights Where do those basic human rights come from though? They come from an understanding of human needs but um, so like in political theory, uh, in that they uh, the definition of like human rights just comes from the state of nature And when you analyze the state of nature They argue that actually those wouldn't be Like even your base needs is uh, yes, it's a need, but it's not a human right Essentially, you just have the life to liberty pursuit of happiness Per se that's just in the west Or the america per se, but essentially you just have the life to life Like self-defense and then uh, you know that kind of stuff like no one owes you food No one owes you anything you have to do it yourself Well, I do well. We know that uh Just before you respond there, just hold your thought for one second there mark I do want to throw in the monkey wrench to move on uh, lastly since we got around like maybe seven to ten minutes of open discussion minus the break time there Uh, so yeah, we would what we would want to move on to once again I think we're three men in a room, but we do want to talk about rights for women in our society So I'll let you respond to what you just heard there mark and then we'll kick it over to hussain to discuss rights of women uh as per in the society That they are having here so uh once again hit the like button everybody and let's carry on Yeah, so so we know from sort of medical research and medical studies that we have certain things that we need to be well And that's the whole idea of human well-being Somebody that is denied food denied water. They're they're not well So if you believe in the well-being of humans, then there's certain things you have to acknowledge our rights There's also um of psychological needs that we all have that we we can study this as well That that all people have the right to Um self actualization. I become the best version of that themselves they can be We we we have to have safety and security a person that does not get safety and security is not a well human I don't know why this is hard to understand But if if you put somebody in perpetual fear or a perpetual Denial of themselves or a perpetual any of these things They will not be a well human and we have seen the effect of that psychologically on people If you isolate people and they don't have a right to community and fellowship They will not be a well human So if you care about the well-being of humans Then these are things you have to acknowledge are inalienable rights So mark when you uh, when you make the big bucks So you want to help me self actualize my dream and fund my race car. Is that what i'm hearing? Do you love uh self-actualization and my my psychological needs? as a fellow actualization is the um, it it's it's not if i'm doing it for you How is it self actualization? Well, then why do I owe someone else food? I'm not denying them food. I'm not denying them food, but they have to go and get themselves Right because because if you were starving yourself, wouldn't you want to get food? Yeah, of course. I would want food. I'm starving right So if you want to live in a society where people get food when they're hungry Because you want that Then you have to do it for other people. It's called reciprocity Yeah, but there's plenty of people who think that and they come to the conclusion that we should still not just give people food for free I don't know who's who's there's plenty of like libertarian conservative people like republican people like There's plenty of a secular humanist. I would of course. I wish I I love human being my fellow human beings I would love if they all had food like me But don't take it from me.  Well, no, but again, you haven't told me. No, so they don't believe in the same things I do just because I believe that there are inalienable human rights Doesn't mean that they believe the same thing This is the thing you just you keep equating all kinds of different people with secular humanism I'm not leveraging none or no leveraging their beliefs onto what I think Like why would you do that?  Why would you make say that? I'm not that's not what I'm trying to do I think you're misunderstanding what I'm what I'm trying to do for the audience So my whole point in the beginning of this was to say that okay Um, there's these underlying beliefs that secular humanism has And I'm showing those beliefs that they give as a given are not actually a given or true Okay, that's why I cited those papers given psychology What do you mean by true? What do you mean by true? I don't understand what you mean by true because I don't think there's moral facts, right? So Really weird way to to phrase it So you're not I'm not saying so you we agreed on the subjectivity, right? Okay, but you also are saying that Human being strive to be ethical, right and I tried to show that is an actually true You said human being strive to be rational I said that isn't actually true and then on top of that when you have this subjectivity Okay Of of morality in an atheist framework Okay, you can come to different conclusions And then we are both agreeing. So I'm just highlighting for the audience. There's these other conclusions, right? That disagree with you and they have every other every right as well to disagree and you're saying You have no reason to say they ought to do what you're wanting anyways So I'm saying it's like a newer moral philosophy. There's no reason For me or anyone to follow what you're saying. So it's not a moral philosophy at all It's just a belief system that you have it's just the dog one No So like this because people try to be rational. I'm not saying they always succeed So you sort of saying hey people are a rational local That doesn't negate like people trying to be rational trying to communicate with each other and figure out what is right and what is wrong They try I'm not saying they always succeed. So that's just wrong No, no, no, so um, you said there's no No, no, no, you're saying there's no reason to do any of the things that I've advocated But what I'm saying is that if you care about humans, then there is a reason to do it It's a subjective reason It's a stance dependent reason that you care about humans or even you care about yourself Because if your own well-being is is, you know, reliant on society Then it is in your best interest to make the society as good as possible or as beneficial as possible. So When you say there's no reason to do it, there's no objective reason But there is reasons that people have all that we have to have is an empathy for other people And an idea that reciprocity if you do this thing for me or sorry if I do this thing Someone they will there's much more chance that someone will do the same for me I mean you can boil it down to Driving on the freeway and you let somebody enter your lane in front of you You know, you just let them let them come into a crowded lane if you do that for other people There's more chance that that will be that behavior will be passed on and people will do the same for you um, it's a very very basic thing and it's it's a part of Societies throughout the ages. You just do um, how the actions that you would like to see in society And there's reasons for that. So so saying there's no reasons. It's like well, no, yeah You can sign that that's an illusion. That's a hallucinary reason So for example, you were born in the western west, right? So you may have like this pre-programmed way to behave or way to act or way to think Someone in china or india can think totally different of you and that's their flavor of ice cream. Like I said And i'm just saying that there's no they could think that this is what's best for humanity And then try and impose that as well, but i'm oh, that's that's we I guess we agree then so We can go on to women and their role in society So what's women's role in society? Should women be equal in society? Um women so in the islamic world, uh, men and women are different We've had this conversation and you yourself admitted that women and men are are different. So I don't see the uh, I mean, that's that's obvious I mean, I would there be equal rules or equal for for men and women Because they're they're both humans Why wouldn't you have equal rights for humans? Yeah, so for example when you talk about like inheritance, right? So in an islamic society Okay, so we go to inheritance, right? So in an islamic society, right? Like the men have more obligations financial obligations and thus they get more inheritance Women are going to be automatically covered by brothers sisters family They're going to be covered by inheritance as well as them and her when they're married It's like a dowry to the women directly So there is these ways that women are covered and there's an obligation as well for all of society, for example to take care of orphans widows So there's plenty of examples of of how we're supposed to take care of women within the sharia And you know because I am a man, I would get a little bit more inheritance That's because I'm going to be taking care of my sisters. I'm going to be taking care of my wife and my sons and daughters You know inshallah if I have any So why don't why don't within an islamic framework that makes sense?  So why why why is the onus on on the man to take care of of your sisters for instance? Why can't you just split it evenly and and sort of take care of each other? Yeah, so that was a an interesting thing so That I wanted to talk about so in islam family is an obligation So you have an obligation and a duty to take care of your family But it sounds like you're saying that you we don't Well, I didn't say that I just said well, why don't you split evenly and take care of each other Like why why is it the man that has to take care of the women? Why isn't the woman that gets more and takes care of the man? Because women don't operate that way Like you mean because psychologically like sociologically like women never behave that way. What do you mean? There's plenty of What are you talking about like do you know what a matriarch is? There's come on I'm being serious behavior Runs throughout all of human society a lot of families are run by women like I'm not saying that's an exclusive thing But I'm saying that the matriarch the grandmother that that sort of is very very matriarch Does exist that stereotype exists for a reason because these women Women have no power with an islamic society because they definitely know I never said that I'm saying they don't have No, no, no, I'm just asking I'm just saying that they don't have equal power Like for instance that that sort of if you if you implement sharia law, it's made up by well, you're you're a sunni So it would be clerics Sorry, um the the elect that elected clerics, right that would would be the ones in power making Uh the interpretation of sharia, right? Um, yeah, I forget from the I'm uh ignorant of this but from what I understand. Yeah, that's right, so yeah, so Can women take these positions and contribute to the the countries and and Implement policies and have control over their own lives. Do they get representation?  I mean, I know there's islamic societies currently where women do have Representation and they actively participate within the democracy So like for example when I visited Tunisia, there was plenty of women participating in the democracy. Who were muslim? Well, that's democracy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but I'm talking more about the sharia law countries, you know Well, they have they have aspects of sharia. Yeah, well aspects, but they're not sort of yeah So, you know in in the countries that are theocracies Where sort of islam's taken to its logical conclusion and you have Um, the sharia law as being the dominant law and the parliamentary system for the government Um, as far as I know women can't become clerics. I mean, there's examples of uh, so aisha um He's be upon her Uh, not sure if you want to discuss that topic. No, no, no. I don't want to bring up the other part of it Which you know My point is is that the min The suhaba at like the companions Uh Did go to aisha for hadith as well as knowledge about muhammad peace be upon him So she is in a way in a position to teach all these men So it's not like this is unheard of and there is you know, going to be debate within this In a general rule and again rules are for general rules, right? There's going to be outliers and aisha is one of them And that's that's the point when you have rules within any society that that's what rules are for There's just a general the general guideline and this is how people ought to behave And then there may be outliers That's fine Yeah, so I don't I don't see women has been treated Equally in in islamic society because men and women aren't equal. I told you that Yeah, so that that's something that I that I do have a problem with If you are sort of that the contribution that women have made To our society. In fact, the only Winner of the Nobel Prize two Nobel Prizes in different categories was a woman Um, there's there's sort of women like Ada Lovelace who invented the first algorithm There's there's all kinds of people that have contributed to our society And I don't hold against them any kind of inherent sort of Way that they were born just like Alan Turing is behind the modern computer and and he was he was a homosexual and and There is no reason why he could not proudly say that that he was a homosexual and One of the the greatest people that have contributed to our society And the only reason why islam says these things is because the book says it and that's the interpretation So if you believe that women and men are not equal All right, and we could use an example Uh, hold on. Hold on. I said men women aren't the same Like what is it that you sort of say? Well, they're not the same That means that we have to treat them differently as far as sort of rights and and sort of power is concerned Well, yeah, so for example majority of women Uh, if if given the option would not go to work And then there's an actual statistic on that it's like 80% of I think a majority of men would not go to work as well I mean Like seriously, what are you talking about? Like there's been companies run by women. There's been countries run by women I mean, no, I never said that doesn't exist. I never said that doesn't exist But there's a reason there's a minority representation of women because most women most Don't want to try don't want to do that. Why is there less women in the debate sphere? It's because most women most Don't want to do these things So I'm accepting reality and saying that women and men are different and women and men have different likes dislikes ways to behave on general in general and that's what these rules are for Well, I think that I would like to see more women in the debate sphere I know of a few women in the debate sphere In fact, there's one coming up that's a godless girl versus I can't remember who it was a vegan person So there's definitely women out there who do participate in debate and I more than encourage More women to get into it. I said to people before I I think it's um It's sad that there are less women involved in in the debate sphere. Um It may be perception of them that is the problem. They may be seen as argumentative or or um, you know, sort of Not subservient enough if they they do participate in in sort of, you know, vigorous debate kind of thing Which is a problem because that's just a perception problem. Um I have heard this thing of like women women are more this way or that way. I I still don't understand why Women should have sort of a lesser role in society Just because they are different than I don't I argue they have a they have a more important role I mean, and there's muslim there's muslim clerics, right and your moms who do make this They actually say in some ways muslim women have the most important role because they are raising future generations And they're more suited to that in a way and there's plenty of secular Atheist red pill people who have made this argument as well Is that women just naturally are more nurturing and better parental figures. They're more emotionally developed than men And so it's perfectly reasonable that god knows us and knows how we are And then sees that the majority of women should are better at that and better suited and enjoy that as well majority of women want to be mothers for example, and so yeah, it's prescribing that for women if they do that there's plenty of women within Uh, islamic history who didn't marry and they had small businesses. There's plenty.  No, I I get that I get that but there still is that that power imbalance where where Women are told to be subservient to men to their husbands um, and the the verses that you know, you basically Um, if a woman is is not obedient there is things to do to her to get her to be Obedient, it's not just that that it sort of says lightly beating and we can argue over what the term actually means and how it's been interpreted But the whole point is that that verse clearly says there to be obedient to the men um Yeah within familiar dynamic. Yeah The there so essentially it's saying that like men lead the household which is a general generally true um And then women can rule the family in the house So like yeah, that's been generally true throughout human history So if it's in line with again, most of what islam says seems to Align with the reality of the world and and then that's why i'm saying like the contrast Is that I think secular humanism Does not but I mean obviously you're gonna disagree so well Yeah, well appealing to human history is a really really bad mistake because slavery has been prevalent through human history Warring upon your neighbors has been prevalent in human history All these things have been prevalent in human history just appealing to history to say hey We've always done it like that is antithetical to what i'm saying as we find out things are bad for society We generally change them and this is the problem with islam because it's prescribed in this book as some ultimate truth You have no flexibility to change when it's demonstrated that that is actually bad for society um, so I mean that I want to I want to argue that's true when there's literally, uh, I think the word is it's it's the law Uh, like there's debate Like among scholars on on these issues. So there's there is Um, for example, like being kind to your parents. There's no, um, like debate, right? um, there's Certain thing like usury is wrong like loans are bad. Like there's no debate there, right? So Like there's plenty of things that are not for debate and there's things that are up for debate so and like, uh, suriya includes many things that, um, for some reason no one ever focuses on so like Me being courteous to you because you're being courteous to me is a part of suriya But if you push the boundaries too far, then obviously I should not be okay with that and that's that's, um, essentially like, you know, giving what you're getting, right? So, um That's pretty normal within human human beings. Uh, natural predisposition so yeah, and and, um Like I don't think we need suriya to say hey, um, you know, if you treat me with a respect I treat you with a respect that suriya isn't needed for that. You don't need somebody to tell you I I generally try to treat everybody well or at least as well as I can um I don't I you know, if if suriya is and and the thing we said there's tons of debate over all of these things I get you but it hardly speaks to something objective like even if there is Uh, an all or and he's got an objective morality You guys obviously don't have access to it because you're all arguing over what it is This is the whole point like you're sort of saying hey, this is better because we've got objective morality And then you're arguing all the time over what it actually is that is objective You're claimed to have objective morality. You can't show that you actually do I mean with it. Yes within sunni islam. There's tons of consensus. So I would I mean I would disagree I mean there's literally all the schools of thoughts agree essentially on Like I mean the majority of items within suriya So there's a majority consensus a lot of the times like new things will happen And yes, there'll be debate on how islam should handle it. So for example, like social media um, you know debating even Uncertain things is for some reason weirdly debated right now Uh within like islamic twitter and stuff like that But it doesn't make any sense because the prophet peace be upon him debated. So it doesn't he debated atheists. So I don't See the issue here Like and again, there's like no compulsion in religion. Um, so if you don't want to be religious, then that's fine. But the point is, um Just attacks All right. Well, I think what we've done there is we've gotten a lot of the Well, I think a lot of really deep ideas out here and a lot of Good surface ideas as well that we could launch into all kinds of really gravy discussions So I hope everybody's enjoyed the open discussion. We are going to kick into the q and a now. So A big round of virtual applause to Hussein. I'm mark read for being here Let's get into that q and a everybody and just reminder If you have a question for one of our speakers Turn it into a super chat and we will read it for sure. Uh, we do want to respect our speaker's time. So, uh, You know, if anybody needs to use the washroom or anything, you just let me know All right, so big thang flying wane Five dollars.  Mary was 12 Um, I don't think that applies to any of us. Um, you know, it's probably a muslim All right, let's carry on there I think both of them are really wrong and um Just completely immoral Miners can give um give any kind of consent So if so a minor is uh, well, just let me let me finish Muhammad So if indeed Muhammad did marry a a nine year old that is completely and utterly immoral So that's a fallacy of presentism, uh, like the modern age of consent laws. Um You know, they're they're modern laws. Uh, 18 is a new found subjective value and it's arbitrary by atheist standards even Um, so I I've talked about this before but if you believe in like a philosophical naturalism The only thing that would matter is uh, essentially Uh puberty. So whenever a girl or a guy hits puberty, they are ready to in a liberal worldview Just have sex in a traditional worldview get married. Um, so I don't see how that's problematic.  So, uh, it seems pretty reasonable to me Okay, so that's hilarious because presentism is necessarily moral relativism It's saying we shouldn't judge people in the past by doing something Because morality is relative to the time and they didn't know any better So you've just one of the prince. No, no, no, hang on You've just outlined one of the principles of moral relativism to sort of make your case Um, no, it's not about it's not about biological thing It's about informed consent and somebody that young cannot give informed consent because they cannot understand The complete consequences of what they do So the whole idea that you'll sort of sit here and go or materialism says if they're beyond puberty It's fine. That's not what materialism says. It's also a psychological element to it, which means that Even if their body is physically ready that they may not be which is really weird that you're sort of saying Hey, as long as they're ready and well, that's what you're here to say because you sort of danced around the subject I want to ask you is that moral or not moral? Yeah in context of that society. Yes, it's moral I told you that I literally said if a 10 year old Back then right is essentially an adult They're treated as if they're an adult and they're giving the responsibility of an adult and again There's psychological papers on this if you give people more responsibility, they mature faster. So for example, I have a Friend his his parents were uh, uh, Hispanic and they're from Mexico and in Mexico He had to help his family's business since six years old and then at 10 year old He actually assumed the role essentially of the father and then took care of the children And then actually took care of the business that 10 year old Individualistically is totally different than a 10 year old in the west or now in even Arabia And that's why like Arab countries and Islamic countries have shifted the age of consent as well But that is entirely consistent with sharia They're not yeah, that's called That's called parentification and we know that that isn't Helpful for the the child to have those responsibilities of a parent loaded upon them. It isn't healthy at all There's a lot of responsibility to children is bad. Don't ever let them grow up guys No, no, it's to give them roles and responsibilities that are appropriate for their age and their development so Increasing the amount of responsibilities as they grow to be able to cognitively handle these responsibilities is a good thing Loading them up with excess responsibilities of a parent when they're too young is a bad thing and you will find somebody that is Unable to tap into that in a child a lot of the time that sort of is makes a healthy human being So this sort of thing that you've described isn't actually healthy itself but you know You're saying it's moral for the time. I I I don't see how That was our first super chat. So that that had a lot That had a lot of thoughts there a big thing a fly and wane We thought we weren't going to make it too much there, but uh, you know, hopefully you're satisfied with that Thanks for being here. Keep those super chats coming in. I know you're curious about what our speakers think So if you want to know what they think about what you're thinking about You gotta ask that question fellas. Come on now peeps. Get that question in there. Hit that like button and let's continue on All right, manga fan dan found dollars cat Stevens converted to Islam Knowing that how can you say secular humanism? Contributes more to secular more to society than Islam Oh Well, it probably is there's not as much as humanists as as Islamic people It is the the fastest religion growing by birth. I believe I think Pentecostalism is the fastest growing by conversion, but um, Islam is the fastest growing by birth I'm here to argue that sort of secular humanism is better for society That doesn't mean to say that we're we're an overwhelming majority in countries that can sort of impose our our ideas upon society I think that that's sort of a strength of secular humanism and that it's compatible with anybody That wants the best for humanity and is acting in the best for humanity That's that's what i'm saying um When you say more more of what it would be my question All right, any thoughts over there Hussaini you want to carry on? Uh, yeah, um morals don't exist per atheism. So, uh, I don't know what to say on it. I don't think it uh, that's not true All right You know, it doesn't exist underneath you. It doesn't so I let's not respond to that I don't think he's got any compulsion to lie because of course moral I mean when you say exist sort of what what are you sort of saying? Because I just outlined a whole bunch of morals so You know They're not illusionary Okay, they might be a construct. That's like saying laws don't exist. Well, that's great go out there and steal a currency How far you get I thought gender doesn't exist. It's a construct, right? Well, it's just because it's a construct doesn't mean it doesn't have the morals don't exist. It's just a construct Well, yes, but so is the law does the law exist? I mean it exists, but it's fake It exists. Yeah, it exists. Yeah, like so that's why Existence existence is a very But I hold hang on hang on. Well, let me finish. I think I think it was my turn to talk strangely enough Yeah, yeah, so when we talk about existence like it is very sort of nebulous what existence actually means But usually it means that something has a causal relationship So if you break the law exists because if you break the law there are consequences It has a causal relationship with with you Again, morality exists because it has a causal relationship if you break morality, then there is these things that happen um So, yeah, the morality exists Um, I mean it might not be 100 objective, but you know, neither is the law Okay So, I mean, I think we agree then Because if you're if but you're saying it exists, but it doesn't I mean like the implication of it being subjective is it's not real So you should just you should just be a nihilist like a moral nihilist. I don't know why you aren't No, it's it's subjective. It just means stance dependent.  We're never we're never gonna agree on this It's just subjective an inter subjective So like sort of we can create these things in our societies that that sort of you know have have constraints upon society um Like like the law like you can create a bunch of laws in society and they have constraints upon people and show people Um, if they violate it this will happen kind of thing, but you wouldn't say the law is fake Like it's just not it's a nonsensical thing to say Well, that's what you know The atheism is the absurdity of life per commune. So when you have atheism life is actually absurd because it is meaningless So, I mean, that's what i'm saying. Like you should really look into him.  No, they don't even know what it's about All right, they make me So you found a book written by some guy said that tells you your life has this meaning they put on you And you think that's real No, it's not just that I found that book. It's that there's arguments for god's existence as well And there's arguments against god's existence as well Yeah, sure, and i'm just saying the logical conclusion if god doesn't exist Per commune and I agree with him is that life is absurd and meaningless And that's what I was saying and morality is absurd in these people live their lives Not in absurdity and with meaning that don't believe in god Well, yeah, and then that's why I think atheists don't actually believe in what they say. They don't believe in what they're selling Well, I mean you don't truly believe what they're selling I could turn around and go you don't really believe in god You're just pretending to try and make you feel like what is that? What is the logical outcome of this if we want to say hey, I can tell what you think Do you know that mind reading thinking that you know what somebody else is thinking is actually a sign of mental illness? Because you cannot know what other people are thinking. You're just deluding yourself into saying well, I know what you're thinking And why no no no no no it's my turn to talk And why because you think that is it absurd if you don't have god? Well, that's great for your opinion That's just your opinion and there's many atheists out there having very meaningful lives and enjoying their lives and having Something more to look forward to in their lives, which completely debunks your entire position So in order to cope with it, you say well, they don't really not believe in god Which is just I mean it's a The absurd thing is you thinking you can know what other people think and know that that's that's the absurd thing All right. I'm gonna have to let who's in respond I'm clay. I'm saying that these are the logical conclusions of atheism that atheists even like people like richard dotkins and sam harris all other atheists Albert Camus they all agree. So for example, you can say oh So the logical conclusion of atheism is that you have no free will but many atheists operate as if there is free will Same thing with morality. So many atheists will fully agree. Well, actually, there's just brutal nihilism And morality is fake, but we're gonna operate as if it's real So that's what I meant by the comment like they're not buying what they're selling Obviously, you disagree. There's other atheists who think there is objective morality even without god, for example So I'm I was just throwing in my two cents, man Yeah, well, I mean you're completely and utterly wrong because it's a hard determinist that think that Choices already played out and you're just rationalizing the choices afterwards, which I'm I'm actually sort of compatibulous So I don't agree with that. So you're you're leveraging sort of what other people believe and putting it on me Um, it's nihilists that have no no no. No, it's my turn to talk um It's nihilism that says that there is no meaning and that that life is pointless and absurd It's not atheism that atheism doesn't have a logical conclusion because atheism is simply the position that No god exists. You're not you're you're you're basically taking these things From atheists that are nihilist and hard determinists and sort of moral object You know people that believe in objective morality and applying it broadcloth across atheism Which atheists are all different But the only thing we have in common is that we do not believe that a god exists But you'll sit here and say well, I don't believe that because the ultimate conclusion is is absurdity is just It's it's such a nonsense position to take that you think that the logical conclusion to atheism is Is nihilism when there are so many atheists out there who who have logically thought it through and and it's not It's not Nihilism if I was a nihilism, I wouldn't care about Morality if I was a nihilist. I wouldn't care, but I do Mark mark. I'm no, no, no, I get the last word. That's the thing like the question was for me Well, we can we can move along there. I don't yeah, that's fine. I don't mind having a bit of back and forth on the questions, but uh, just to verify I guess before we continue on Hussein, do you have any time constraints this evening for having the back and forth? um Well, I was supposed to like leave uh pretty shortly, but We we can do like 10 more minutes than if that's cool or like just try and get through the questions Yeah, all right. I'll set a one-minute timer to get through these Uh, and we'll keep them to the side that they're asked for so cool dog Oh for 20 dollars. Hussein, which countries fit your definition of an islamic society and should they be imitated by others? Uh, and they end it with justice for khashoggi I don't I don't know what that justice for khashoggi is referencing, but um I don't think any country is practicing sharia law and there's actually like a prophecy on that about how like the uma will be, uh, oppressed because of They're not acting in accordance with sharia so All right, let me set the timer Khashoggi, oh, oh, I have we still have 40 seconds. I did have to look this at but he was a uh, a um A columnist in the the middle east and washington post Are you the one that died by saio-ya or something? Yeah. Yeah. He um He he was assassinated Um, but believe it was in england, wasn't it?  It was a very very brutal kind of Um, yeah, he he entered the Saudi raven consulate never came out Yeah, I don't know what he wants me to say to that That's like a political thing and it is not really like an islamic thing. So Yeah, let's move on from there everybody. All right. So x x w l z x x for two dollars says is child marriage objectively moral I know No, because I believe they have to be gone through puberty. So they're no longer a child I don't yes, of course. It's immoral like what what does he want? I look at what age is that What's the minimum age of that? I think that a minor going into marriage is is immoral What what age would you say? Okay, so minor So what's a minor so anyone under 18 you define a child like what what is what is under age like in germ in germany? It's 14 and another Hold on. Hold on. So for him. So I thought we're not even doing back and forth by the way because I because I need to go That's all right. That's all right. So yeah, we'll carry on. That's all right So I think we got our ideas out there and everybody can figure out what we think they're Mike t for dollar 99 mohammed struck asia Not sure if that's that's more of a declaration. Nah. Yeah, it's a declaration and it's false like they literally talk about it.  That's not a strike. I don't know what He's talking about that's just talking All right, we can carry on if that's that's fine.  All right, let's carry on xx wl z xx Uh strikes again saying a female circumcision is in the hadith. It's mandatory Oh What do we think of that any thoughts there? But we're using the headache. Yeah I've never heard that All right. Well xx if you want to put in another super chat and reference What it is that you're talking about, you know, maybe we can uh, You can get down that path. I think mark is So senior muslim religious authorities agree that uh female fgm is neither required nor prohibited by islam The crown does not mention it at all or male circumcision. So I Don't know what he wants. Well, they did say And then literally the authentic his Authenticity of these hadiths has been questioned by multiple jurists. So I don't know what he wants All right. Yeah, I was gonna say I think yeah I was uh specifically like a quick google search for these islamic dogs Yeah, I did I want to clarify that. Yeah, he did say hadith. So, uh, you you hear hussein's thoughts on What he thinks of that let's carry on mike t a female So they're they're saying the opposite mike t says female mutilation is not a part of islam All right. So it is in it is in the headache. It depends on on Sort of because the hadiths were were peoples um Basically, they're biographies of the the life of muhammad, right? So they were sort of other people's interpretations, correct? Yeah All right. Well, we can carry on from there. It sounds like We had a yep there and have you read the crown then? Does that have you read it? Have you read any of those? Part of it. Yeah. Oh cool cool It's curious All right. Well, let's carry on xx wlz xx. Oh my I'm just gonna call you xx from now on Five dollars does hussein not see the irony in saying there is a debate about these issues while simultaneously saying they have objective morality No, I don't see it as ironic. I mean, I literally the whole debate Mark did he talk about that and I explain why So well, I think that even if there is some sort of objective morality from a god They don't have access to it. I mean there are no the god isn't talking to anybody directly So you've got sort of one interpretation which is sort of muhammad's interpretation of what god was saying And then you've got another interpretation through the scribe that wrote it down And you've got a third interpretation of the person that's reading it out of the Quran So even if there is some kind of objective morality, they don't have access to it And I don't think there is a I mean it'd be nice if the universe had objective morality. I just don't think it exists All right, we'll get the last word to hussein there um Well, so If god is speaking through the prophet muhammad, please be upon him. Then yeah, it would be objective There's been lots of debate from both atheists and christians alike On the Quran's validity and if it's been changed and they can definitely trace it back to the prophet muhammad Please be upon him. So I don't Think that's been covered already. And so if it did come from god And it can be traced back to him and it hasn't been changed. And then I think it's a pretty good safe bet You can find ways to behave there.  Uh, this one coming in from big bad mama five dollars Who's saying you define objective morality with your intuition instead of observation and measurement Why is your intuition true? for other humans Any thoughts there on that one? Yeah, I mean, so the majority of humanity believes in a god, um, the You know these moral intuitions, uh, there's like the irony here is I believe uh, if i'm not mistaken like human humanism Literally prescribes like the main point of it is is that god gave us these moral intuitions and through them we can act Justly and morally so Uh, I find it quite ironic then so Um, well that'd be theistic humanism not secular humanism. Yeah, of course. I don't think that I don't think that sort of, um Um secular humanism more more deals with the the analysis of rationality and science and Utilitarianism than any kind of Moral intuitions moral intuitions can be really useful intuitions in general can be useful if Decision made to me made quickly mark. Can you know consequences? Can you know consequences? Because if you can't know the consequences of your actions then utilitarianism is like a flawed ideology Or will he ask that question and uh, so inductively you can sort of Gather what the It's not a guess. It's induction. It's saying hey if these things cause this before they'll probably cause the same thing in future Induction is not a guess. I mean come on. Um so, um For a start ad-popular most people are religious and ad-popular and secondly moral intuitions can be wrong They're not a particularly reliable way to decide whether something is right or wrong They're just a feeling. I got feeling Okay, all right Let's carry on from there everybody xx asks again. Thanks for being here in your super chat. So we appreciate those Is this the only guy? No, there's lots other people No, that was a big bad mama. Hi big bad mama. Yeah, big bad mama is Her from your stream. I think mar Yeah, I think I like baby him. Yeah. Yeah Bbm That sounds like a category on anyways xx You ask us again. Why does hussein think muslims have objective morality? There are literally thousands of different interpretations of both islamic law and theology Um, this would be like a whole nother thing. I'd have to prepare but essentially like christianity is paganism It believes in trying you and god So it's like ruled out by like most you know, like the The necessary being argument like argument of contingency like there's a bunch of things that talk about how, you know, like Judaism would be problematic in that as well So that's ruled out. They believe in essentially like a weak god that they can debate and surpass Um, so they're not actually like subservient to the ultimate being So if you believe in an ultimate creator god, then you would obviously in the hierarchy Be subordinate to him or it's generous. I'm just using him, you know, but um Yeah, so there's like problems with all these major religions like paganism in general like monkey gods stuff like that You're just believing in an animalism and like you're justifying Like Zeus like rakes people like There's tons of problematic within like these pagan beliefs. So All right. Well, let's carry on from there. Leo whitmer says I got a question from mark Do you think if god was real that would make morality objective and if you can give an answer In an American accent I generally don't do accents. I'm terrible at accident, but I'll give it a try just because it was a super chat Oh, no mark. Uh, this is going to be terrible. I'm I'm bad at accents. I I hate this super chat No, you're fine. You're good. Um so if a god if a god had a American accent no if a god had if a god was real would morality be objective No, America, uh, it would still be subjective and just the will of the god I think I'm doing something between texas and alabama right now. I don't know what I'm doing. Um No, it would still be subjective It would just be the god that that would be the stance that that that gay, you know sort of had that stance kind of thing Um, this would lead to sort of a might makes right kind of moral system where just the one with the most power You could appeal to god's nature as being morality like you could say hey, it's not their their decision But it rather it's the nature of god that provides morality but then you've got a problem that Um, god wouldn't have control over his own morality if you couldn't decide that it is different So there's a whole load of problems down that route as well. So, um, yeah, I I don't think 10 seconds morality is objective even if it Does come from a god's will because it's still subjective You know, you you you you almost broke a mark there leo trying to do the american accent You may as well have just gone full on like Could you write it out of 10? Can you write it out of 10? Oh, I'm sorry mark. It was it was bad Oh, but I was gonna say you have to work. You don't got it. It's not good, but you know, USA You could have you should have just went full on like think of the The most drawly country song that you can think of On then you would have had something a little bit more like that That would have been like some twang You would have been better off with the like a super salary. He does it well Yeah, I was gonna say I've been I do a few but I'm not gonna I'm not gonna get into that tonight All right, so uh xx ask us again atheist community. Does apostasy equal death Apostasy would be leaving their religion. So they're not Apostates if they were never oh was that for a atheist community. No, no, sorry. I have to clarify They said atheist community question mark question mark So I think you might have said that who's saying at some point in the debate saying that there's an atheist community Oh, yeah, yeah, like a modern islamic um So there's like a modern islamic jurors and they talk about how essentially they've made treaties with secular governments And so they have to honor these treaties essentially and then they can't and islam does talk about that Like what other people do within their land is totally fine. So for example, like a muslim Uh in in misery met the vikings and he literally had to watch like a human sacrifice and like a bunch of other pagan stuff He didn't just like whip out his sword and start killing them is because they had a treaty within that government So what they do within their own lands is up to them So that's pretty much in a way consistent with liberal modern, uh political worldview The does the u.s. Follow that now, but All right, but I think that that if if somebody is muslim and leaves islam and is very vocal in their opposition to islam Then the penalty for that is All right, 10 seconds. Yeah, yeah, I can't be sure All right, you need the all 10 seconds. Let's carry on everybody and thank you for being here Thank you for your super chats xx says once again nice haircut ryan She thank you. I just got it yesterday because I was doing a rock show and uh I might upload a few of those videos later. Dr. Dino says hussain What can islam provide That any other abrahamic faith could not and why should any non muslim want it above their own proposed system? um Why should islam be over other abrahamic things? um well, so I mean I tried to explain how like there's plenty of arguments on this that you could research that like if a god did exist Muhammad ali from the muslim lantern has a lot of these discussions online He's very interesting.  He's really good He essentially talks about how like With people who are agnostic or atheists You know, well, why should I choose islam over all of their religions? And he does like a formulaic breakdown about how you know, if a creator god existed how islam is the only one that's In congruence with that and the implications of that versus other faiths Where they limit god's capacity in some way. So for example, like christianity says that oh god is all merciful But the only way he can forgive you is by making a son and then doing blood sacrifice to on him which is uh Irrational and uh, it doesn't make sense with with a all merciful god So islam says well, no god is just all merciful and he can forgive you That's it. So there's plenty of examples of that. So All right, let's carry on from there Uh, glad to see you. I have to pray so if we can if we can um, like end it in five more minutes Just to like be a eight on the dot or whatever. Well, we'll try to carry on here We got quite a few but let's keep them quick. Dr. Dino asks again Uh, and thanks for being here dr. Dino. Uh, hopefully you're having a after show. I'll join you No problems there. Uh, why should an atheist be subject to your religion? um Like why they should be subject to my religion uh, because I mean I did this argument with erin ron, but like Uh, an atheist would be better under an islamic country Uh, then an eight and then uh, the whole society being under an atheist country So and there's plenty of examples. I've given where like, uh, it's better for family Really people under a religious society are less likely to abuse drugs like they get better grades like blah blah blah blah blah blah so all right We can carry on from there. There's a number of um, Atheistic countries out there. There's a lot of secular countries mostly like five seconds The scandinavian countries things like that and they do very well. In fact, they're things like education The happiness index is higher than most islamic countries. So that's patently untrue. I close close us out there who's seen 10 seconds um, I mean I would uh critique the uh, the happiness survey. It actually has a liberal bias So I I was actually doing a video on that where the liberal bias of the happiness index. It doesn't actually Um talk about any other values than the bow values Um inherently there's also like problems with um, like the liberal western hegemony They're becoming more unhappy because essentially they only focus on material goods So if you only focus and there's again psychological papers on this as well You can look up to look into why materialism is making you unhappy So it's clear that just focusing on the world here, um, or the dunya in islam Uh, it doesn't make anyone happy. So all right, let's carry on from there I'm trying to speed it along for you there who's saying but we do have quite a few more super chats So, uh, I'm gonna try to remind you, uh, when you're getting a little over time Uh, don't mind me. Uh, no disrespect. So awesome. Awesome clips says what is this other part about aisha? Um, I think we kind of touched on that. Yeah, we touched on it I think we did talk about it. So, uh, awesome loss. And if you want to go back, you can find that ember asks Thanks ember for being here. Always cool to see you hanging out there. Uh, love hosting you buddy Cheers who's saying what role for non-binary and intersex folks one minute there who's saying um This is like a whole discussion in and of itself, but, uh There's a plenty of papers on how like essentially it's gender dysmoria and uh, so like obviously, uh, I would hope people get therapy on it. Um, and come to terms with the gender they were born Uh, because it's easier in life to accept things the way that the world is Right then, um, in some ways how like it ought to be, uh, which is a problem with leftism in general. So and like, uh, You know, like this social Values, if you will All right, let's carry on from there. Uh xx asks us again for 10 The fact that there are disparities in men and women doesn't mean you should enforce those disparities via law All men are not better than all women at everything Let people arrange their own lives Okay, I don't I don't know what they what they mean by that because in a lot of ways like Islam is pretty libertarian ish So like again in many islamic societies like women do go and pursue jobs I mean like in careers and education and like if they just want to point to like afghanistan or something which Like all we're getting is western bias sources. I mean, that's the only country. That's like banning women from all public life, so I don't Yeah, all right Excellent. Well, we'll carry on uh rinalus asks for mark. Are you technically agnostic or atheist? And why? Oh, it's because I believe no god exists and I have sort of some It's a provisional belief based upon my understanding of how minds work Mines don't seem to have any kind of basis without some kind of physical material But if you can show me a mind without a brain, I'd change that provisional belief But I in fact believe no gods exist All right. Well, you heard it here everybody mark read believes no god exists So if you want to ever have a debate with somebody on heart atheism, I think mark would be willing to take up the mantle Nura asks why is modern-day debate allowing hussain to advocate for child s a Disgusting they say When did I advocate you can we can we move on from there because that seems pretty We can get to some to s Yeah, follow the local laws, please. Uh, you know, I don't know what you want I'm not advocating any of the things that they believe so All right, it's it's also eight o'clock. So All right, let's carry on. Uh, hussain, do you believe in the abstract from rinalus? I don't know. I don't know what that is What how do you spell that I would like to look it up though. I'm not um Abs like I'm going to read some. Yeah, I I'm not sure how to define abstract either. I guess Yeah, I'm just thinking of something st r a c t.  Uh, they're talking about abstract things versus Uncrete things. Yeah, I don't know how to define it phenomena You have phenomena, which is the physical things that the actual Uncrete things in reality and you have abstract are which are these Mental constructs kind of them More like I'm like an imaginary thing. So they're asking hussain. Do you believe in the abstract? You know, it is a concern for me considering the common features of technologies You know He's checking it out everybody to be honest And I'm not even sure I'm looking at the correct thing, but I I have no idea. I can't even I can't tell you Well, thanks for taking the time to look it up hussain I know that you're running low on time, but check it out He took the time to look it up and see what he thought about it But he's gonna get back to you Angel Quiles mark was there ever ever a time when you believed 30 seconds mark Believed in what? It's basically There was a time when I believed that astrology was true. I grew up in sort of a Not really spiritual, but sort of a My my mother believed in a lot of what I would call woo So astrology and crystals and you know, so yeah, I guess there was a time where I believed in something But I've never believed in any Any god All right, well, let's carry on from there big fang of flan wane asks Uh, let's move this over millennials are the first generations of human beings Where more than half of us go where we're planned Consented pregnancies we have a long way to go y'all What world what world do these people live in where like Like um, there's this weird thing in western society where like they have to view themselves as like special snowflakes Like in a sense, right?  I'm just saying like millennials. We are not like special like I hope you know that like there's people Who had unplanned pregnancies in the past and people who had planned pregnancies in the past like This is like the weird thing where they they do the stereotype that like everyone in 1950 beat their wife for some reason Like that's just what they think for some Like not everything is an extreme like you guys realize that right like chat All right, well, we'll carry on I think there was it's more talking about pervading culture that it was acceptable to do so or at least it was, you know Perfectly reasonable if you had a nag in life to do so Oh, she's waiting beating. I thought they said planned pregnancy Sure, but your example was was beating your wife. Oh, yeah 10 seconds, who's saying? Okay, sorry. You're good. I get what you're saying We'll move on from there guys. Uh, dr. Dino who's saying why should I believe you over christians? Um, one minute. Why should you believe me over christians? Um So, um, I mean there's plenty of arguments Like I said, uh, look into like the Quran's preservation versus like the bible's preservation how we don't know the authors You know how They contest what like a historical jesus we actually believe so if jesus is jewish and he's saying we come for we I come to fulfill the law You know and uphold the law Why is like paul now say pauline christianity like denouncing the law? And like getting ab abdicating the law You know, why is the old testament say Blood sacrifice is wrong and then all of a sudden god is doing blood sacrifice though Like again, the the entire seconds if I was in a christian nation I would be anything so let me just say that about I'll give mark some credit Like christianity is absurd. No offense. Uh, does that make sense? All right, well, we'll move on from there. The trinity is a logical. I don't I don't get the trinity, but that's Well, we have a moment of agreement. It looks like huzzah Yes clap clap for that and we're gonna move on to the last super chat from dr. Dino Mark tell me what your favorite dino is in a boston accent No, no no more accents. I've embarrassed myself enough. I'm sorry. Let me inflame you on your accents. I'm sorry You know, your regular speaking voice is great. So let's just carry on. It's an ankylosaur Ankylosaur A boston boston accent All right boston accent Ankylosaur, that's terrible. Why did I even try that?  Thanks for being here um I had a lot of fun. So um, and I'm glad I did it. I got to talk to mark again Um, since I've been so busy Lately, so, uh, you know, inshallah, um, you know A lot of people understand where I'm coming from and um, you know, maybe they'll look into islam and um, you know Maybe one day mark. Well, I don't know. We'll see But um, you know, I enjoyed the discussion Thanks for being uh, courteous too Yeah, well, thank you for being here who's saying, uh, you know, I really enjoyed talking to you the other day on discord as well Uh, you know, everybody should know that hussain is a really Nice guy to talk to uh, and that was one of our super chatters questions Here we didn't get around to it. Sorry bass guitar But he did say that you were one of the friendliest people that he had talked to on discord So, uh, you know, I do want to let you know that and we appreciate you being here Mark read up to one minute for your closing statement Yeah, so, um Humanism is just just an acknowledgement of sort of our place in the world and how we can make decisions about what's best going forward If you're going to ignore part of your holy text and sort of say hey Well, that was in the past and it no longer applies because we know better now or we can we can now make changes and abrogate things or make things better And what are you evaluating it on if not rationality if you're Taking some verses and not others then what are you really basing that evaluation on apart from rationality? And an understanding of what is good for humans and bad for humans um, so um, I I really encourage you to Sort of treat humans equally see them as equal partners on this planet and um, we can work together to decide what's best for our societies Thank you All right. Well, thank you mark read for your closing statement. Sorry everybody for the pda. My wife just got home and uh, she's going to bed So, uh, I just had to say hello there for a second. Thanks everybody for being here Hussein mark big round of virtual applause for our speakers We will be back for more glorious debates in the meantime. Uh, enjoy some of this music I'm still working on it. I got some uh drums that I'm getting sorted out for it. So, uh, let's keep it Keep it rolling everybody. Enjoy our next discussions and uh, check out our debaters and live description We would appreciate that Oh, just one last thing. Um, I know it's doing an after show as well. I don't know if you mentioned that I didn't know if he was doing one. I said I'd hang out because I'm still writing off the adrenaline of last night So I'll come hang out. I don't know if Hussein wants to pop on over after he's finished Uh, doing everything he needs to do. I know you just got home from work who's saying when you started this So I really appreciate you being here. So I think she's got a pray as well Yes, of course And uh, you know, whatever else you want to do after getting home from work for sure But if you want to hang out, uh, you're of course more than welcome. I'm sure uh, I mean, who knows It's up to doc Dino. So everybody will we're gonna hang out over there and uh, thanks for being here. Cheers