Welcome back to the Breakfast and Plus TV Africa. The UN Food Security Agency says wall food prices jump nearly 13% in March to a new record high as the war in Ukraine costs turmoil in markets for staple grains and edibles. Also the price of food in Nigeria are experiencing a constant increase in particular for maize and gari. The price of white gari grew by 60% compared to the previous year while the price for yellow maize grained by 52% and all the food products that have recorded the highest growth in prices of beans, beef, palm oil, egg. Together with food for the items that have experienced a price increase and non-acoholic beverage clothing and footwear as well as housing, water, electricity and other fuel issues. Mouda Yusuf is a CEO Center for Promotion of Private Enterprise. It's good to have you join us this morning. Thank you very much. Let's share from your knowledge. What would you say is responsible for the cost of or the increase in the prices of food and other items in Nigeria? Well before the recent aggression in Ukraine I've been having serious challenges with inflation. Food inflation has been consistently high even before this new round of challenges with energy prices. I'm quite a number of people who have been responsible to have the challenge of insecurity which has affected agricultural development across the country. But this was more pronounced in the northern part of the country. And as you know the northern part is more or less like the food basket of the nation. So the insecurity issue was a major domestic problem that contributed particularly to food inflation. Then of course we have the challenge of the cost of transportation. Most of the vehicles that move these food items and even other raw materials across the country. Most of them are powered by diesel. Diesel has jumped by over 300 systems in the last one to three months. And all of these additional costs of transportation has to be transferred to the continent in form of hybrid. So the cost of energy has been a major issue. And when we talk about energy it's not only diesel. Even the cost of that, the cost of evasion of oil, the cost of kerosene. All of these costs have gone up dramatically. So to the extent that we use this energy to support some production activity we really have the challenge of high prices. Then we have the challenge of exchange rate. Exchange rate has also depreciated significantly over time. I mean as we speak now, we are talking about $9 to $1, about 5 nights as the time is getting close to almost $600. And this has a partial or knock-on effect on practically all the production activities across practically all sectors of the economy. Then we have the issue of the scarcity of foreign exchange. If we talk to many of the major manufacturers, they have a problem accessing foreign exchange as even whatever. So that is also impeding their production capacity. It's affecting capacity utilization and therefore affecting production, affecting supply. And once you have a drop in supply, you have higher price. Then you have this external factor, which is the Ukraine-Russia war. That again, because of the strategic position of Russia and Ukraine, especially in the area of food production. I want to talk about food here. What is relevant as far as this war is concerned is wheat and corn. Because these two countries are turned for a sizable percentage of global production of wheat and global production of corn. So again, we use the wheat for flour, we use flour for bread. So again, that's a part of itself as a result of that country. That is also affecting this. And where you are putting the UN statement. That is the angle from where the UN is coming from. Then of course, we have other local challenges around the port. You know, getting good out of the port. We have challenges around import duty. Some of the import duty that the government imposes on some of these goods, particularly raw material, are also too high. All right, Mr. Amouda, you survived, if I could just button. So the combination of both the global and domestic factors. All right, if I got you correctly, you talked about external forces, which have also contributed. And the issues in Ukraine and Russia. But what would have thought that it would also have presented an opportunity for the country. From what we read in the news, you know, EU is importing 40 percent of our Nigerian gas. I clearly demanded more. That in another way should be bringing more forex into the country. Don't you think so? Mr. Yusuf, are you still there? I'm here. Can you call me again? When you were talking about all of the issues that have contributed to the rising inflation in the world, you talked about external forces with what's happening in Russian invasion of Ukraine. What would have thought that Nigeria should have gotten some sort of opportunities to boost its economy? In the news just yesterday, we read that the European Union is importing 40 percent of Nigeria's gas. Also demanded more. That in other way should be bringing more forex into the country. Thank you, Ogray. So you are very correct. But again, we have managed our oil and gas sector. Because for many oil producing countries, actually they are celebrating at this time. Celebrating in coal. Because they are making more money from the high crude oil price. Currently, for particularly oil producing countries, they are experiencing what we can call a waste oil as far as 40 percent and this is concern. Unfortunately, Nigeria, you see, it's a failure. First, we cannot even meet our health pressure because of the challenges of oil is the attack on the oil installation and all sorts of problems in the oil producing area. There are also quality issues. You know, we have been grappling with the Tertullum industry and the Tertullum industry for over a decade. The whole idea was to put a very good investment environment for investors, not in oil and gas. But we were dragging this. We managed to put it to us last year. So that affected investments in the oil and gas. Again, for that reason, we are not able to reap the full benefit of this current going forward. Then on the oil importation side, our downstream sector, which includes Tertullum refining, pipeline transportation and all of that, are practically collapse. Again, because of quality problems, it's called the policy environment. We're not encouraging the investor to invest in refining. So all of that has now contributed to the situation. Rather than benefit from the current going forward, we are being penalized by it. It's more or less like it's forced now because we are spending a fortune to be working for Tertullum. Only yesterday, on the floor of the National Assembly, the Senate president was reading the letter from the president asking for supplementary appropriation of almost four trillion for oil and gas. How much is the revenue of government? The way we have managed our oil and gas sector is what has put us in this mess. We talked about gas. Yes, we have some fuel consuming this in gas. The Nigeria NLNP is doing fairly well. But again, we didn't invest fast and big enough in the gas sector. Let's quickly take a look at this thought pattern. The Farmers Association at the time in your state had expressed concern over the prices of farm imputes. And they said in 2022 the cost of food commodities will be on the high. And so if this is the reason that they have stated, how do we then tackle this issue of you have food prices being on the high? Because as much as we want to make reference to the conflicts that's happening right now in Ukraine and Russia, you would also want to agree that this is actually a recent thing. So how do we tackle this? What is the domestic factors or the domestic revenues are things that are within our control? Because just as you said, there are factors that are external, there are factors that are domestic. Some of the domestic factors, which is part of what I mentioned earlier, it's insecurity. If we don't have a good handle on how to secure our environment, particularly their culture, to do so in communities. Many people have fed their farms. These are the people growing the food. One of them is not in the IDC camps. And the situation is getting better. So dealing with this insecurity is one major issue that you have to deal with. If you want to progress the challenge of food inflation, there's domestic costs of transportation. Unfortunately, we cannot support that from energy prices. Because all the crops that are moving around, they are being powered by diesel. So if there is any way we can get the diesel price to come down, that will not only help the cost of transportation, it will also help to bring down the cost of production. Because many manufacturing firms now have increased their cost. I mean they have increased their cost because of the increase in energy costs. All right. Thank you so much, Mr. Mouda Yusuf. We could actually go on and on concerning all of the issues and plaguing the economy and of course the rising food inflation and general price levels are in the country, but we are completely out of time. We want to say a very big thank you to you for all of the thoughts that you have shared and we hope that over time we'll begin to put all of this into our economy so we can actually begin to see all those changes that we desire. Once again, very big thank you to you, Mr. Mouda Yusuf. Mouda Yusuf is the CEO Center for the Promotion of Private Enterprise CPPE and that's the size of the show for today. Thank you so much for being there, for all the support and for watching. My name is Justin Akademi. And you can be part of the conversation via Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. You can also subscribe to our YouTube channel. It's a plus Stevie Africa and plus Stevie Africa lifestyle. Many thanks for watching. I am Messy, but we'll have a great day.


If you would ask almost anybody what was the first company in the world to develop a business application, it's unlikely you would have said the answer was Jay Lyons and Co, who were actually the biggest catering company in the world for a while, but known across this country, mostly for their chain of high street tea shops, of which there were 250 at its peak, a lot of them in London. I think there were four alone in Oxford Street, Ond yw i'r amser i Lleidydd yn y bach o'r cyfnod. A oedd, o'r erbyn ymddyddialau ffosh yng nghymru, y trogodero yn Llywodraeth, y hotel ymderwch, yn gweithio'r gwaith o'r gyfnod Gwladr Gwladr yn Ffoswyr, i'r teimlo i Olympia, ac mae'r rhai cyfnod o ymddydd iawn ymddydd iawn i gael gwlad ac ymddydd iawn i gael gwlad. Yn gyfnod o'r cyfnod ymddwch, mae'r stori yw'r cyfnod o'r cyfnod. yn mynd i fod yn y tyt. Mae gondol iawn i'r ffwrdd i gael gondol i'r holl i'r gwir ymarffiad yn fwyfyrdd yr ymddangas, popeth ddim yn ystod i gael i'r gwaith. Sementeynau! A dyna gweithi'r ffwrdd eich gwychol yn y ffordd o'r ffilm cenderwyaith, maen nhw'n gweithio'n gwybod bod y mynd euchynig yn dd pepper oedd o'r rhan fydd ymweld o'r ll secondary. A hen yn gweithio'n mewn unigwethaf, oedd y gwaith ar gyfer mathemaethau. Felly, yw ddweud ychydig i'r bwrdd, i gweithio arall, a'r bwrdd i'r rhan. Yn gyfaint o'r gyfrannu, jaleins yn co, mae'n ddysgu'r ffordd i'r ffordd o'r 19th sydd. Mae'n ddod o'r ffordd o'r ffordd o'r ffordd o'r cyfrannu samanol. Mae'n ddod o'r cyfrannu, i ddod o'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio. called Jay Lyons to put their name to it in case it went pear shaped and they didn't want any anything to sully the glorious name of salmon and guldstein which was known for its cigars and cigarettes and so they gave the name Lyons but in fact it was the salmon's and the guldstein's who continued to run the business and you might be interested to know that a new book has just come out called Legacy which is all about that family business which includes people like Dominic and Nigella Lawson are their descendants of the the salmon's I think it is and also George Mombio I read the other day I hadn't realised he was descended from that family as well. Okay Halifax Digital seems to be unhappy about something. Shall we just close Chrome? There we are. So it was a family business and this is a it's shop in Cannon Street must have been around the shortly after the turn of the 19th 20th century before they went up to build this huge empire and they went there it was a very vertically integrated company they had a philosophy of extreme control a quality control right across the company and that entailed essentially making everything themselves from the uniforms of the waitresses who were known as nippies and they had these very smart black uniforms with pearl buttons that were made in Paris to manufacturing all their own food so they had they had food manufacturing business mostly based in west London that had a Swiss roll bakery that made I'm very bad at remembering figures but miles and miles of Swiss roll every week came out of this automatic bakery and bread and they had their own tea plantations you get you get the picture they liked to control everything but running the tea shops was complicated most people would come in they would have nothing but a cup of tea and a bun very small transactions and you obviously had to keep your margins very look at your margins very very carefully to make sure that you stayed in business because you had too much unsold fresh goods at the end of the day you would be losing money if you price things wrongly you'd be losing money and so there was this massive back office function of girls mostly school leavers so they would have been 15 16 year olds sat at big brown speaker calculators punching in checking the the receipts from the shops against the bills that had been issued in the shops and there was a manager at time so we're now talking about this at 1930s there was a manager at the time called John Simmons he was one of the few people who was senior in the company who wasn't actually a family member and he recalled later looking at this room full of literally hundreds of clerks and saying what a thinking what a waste of intellectual energy it was because unlike it a factory production line you couldn't chat to your neighbour you had to be totally focused on what you were doing and yes it only yes it was supremely boring there was nothing interesting about adding up all these these numbers and he thought to himself wouldn't it be great if we could automate this but in the 1930s there was no way of doing that so it was a thought that he simply filed away so move on till so so World War II happened and one of the things that emerged at the end of World War II was the news across the Atlantic of something called the electronic brain and that was ENIAC and I've temporarily forgotten exactly what that stood for the last two words were automatic computer but it was a computer that was developed at Harvard and Princeton I think it was and essentially used for military calculations but whereas all the work that had gone in the UK with Colossus for code breaking at Bletchley Park was kept an absolute secret and not communicated at all to the general public ENIAC was immediately declassified after the war and so there were all these articles in the paper about the electronic brain and what it could do so two Lions managers who were going over there to just have a look at business practice in general asked if they could go and have a look at the computer and they did off they went to see what it could do and they were immediately thinking they were already thinking about the possibilities of using it for business across a wide range of functions and the people they saw at ENIAC said you need to go to Cambridge Cambridge UK because there a computer called edzac the electronic delay storage automatic calculator was being built by Morris Wilkes and his colleagues in the mathematical laboratory so off they go back to Cambridge go and see Wilkes and he says yes I'm getting on all right but all that's holding me up is is the money to get on and build this and so Lions the board of Lions agreed to fund the building of edzac on the in return for being allowed to build a copy of the computer and apply it to the business problems of the Lions company and all this was sealed with a handshake there was no contract written nothing at all but in in may um and this is what um john Simmons said about it here for the first time there is the possibility of a machine that will be able to cope at almost incredible speed with any variation of clerical procedure what effect such a machine could have on the semi repetitive work the office needs only the slightest effort of the imagination imagination absolutely key to what was going on here and on it was in may 1949 that the Cambridge people sent a telegram to Lions to say that they'd got edzac to run its first program which was a table of squares I believe and Leo actually had already started recruiting the staff who they would need to develop the Leo project I keep calling it Leo I should have said they didn't like the word computer a computer at the time meant usually a young woman with an adding machine so they called it the Lions electronic office which made Leo which and Leo you know it's a Lions name uh it fitted rather nicely with the name of Leon the Lions but I I really rather enjoy the fact that they had that slightly playful approach at a time when computers were all otherwise called things like PDP and sets of obscure initials so following the first successful edzac program uh John Pinkerton was the engineer hired to uh head the hardware side of things in addition to copying the edzac they had to develop their own input and output devices so what the edzac was mostly doing was mathematical work for researchers in Cambridge things like x-ray crystallography astrophysics things where you you put in a small amount of data you do a relatively complicated calculation and you get a small answer out what the Lions people needed to do was something completely different they needed to put in enormous amounts of data do a rather small calculation a simple calculation and get enormous amounts of output from it so all the input and output devices were developed by the the Lions engineers themselves using things that subsequently became very familiar like you know paper tape drives and printers and and so on and the first business programs were written for things like payroll and stock control so what what was what was uh edzac and therefore leo um so this is this is leo one these things that look like kitchen cabinets are filled with uh thermo thermionic valves um I've forgotten how many they were several thousand and they got very hot so the room had to be had to be kept cool uh and here were all the the consoles and so on that were used to control it and under the floor here was the memory so the electronic delay storage automatic calculator edzac was named because of the storage that it used uh which was mercury delay lines so these were tubes of mercury about that long about that kind of diameter in which you could cycle pulses of um of of electronic data very small amounts of data in each pulse but it would it would whiz round as electrons get to the end of the mercury go through that as ultrasound and then go around again so you could you could back up quite a lot of data uh in the in the mercury bit of the circuit before it it whiz round once again and then you could intervene in that circuit to um perform manipulations but the the total bank of mercury delay lines in leo one I think I'm right in saying could store two kilobits of information that's what we're talking about in terms of of of storage uh and they were able to do amazing things with it uh and this is a picture of john simons although it's not actually a picture of john simons I've seen the original of this um and it's actually a picture of somebody else standing there in a white coat john simons would never have worn a white coat he was he was a manager he was he would wear a suit um and somebody had cut out picture of john simons and stuck his head on that picture because they obviously wanted to have him standing next to the computer but it makes him look as if he's an engineer and he wasn't an engineer at all so the world's first routine routine time sensitive office application that I'm sure you if you know anything about computer history you will know that the competition to be the first to do anything is really fierce and so you have to be very precise about what you're claiming and what leo claims is the world's first routine time sensitive office application it was called bakery valuations and it was a program that essentially uh valued all the ingredients that went into the the line the operation of the lion's bakery and that was successfully run as a not as a test but in earnest on the 29th of febru 1951 and that that has been accepted as the world's first business application but this the really serious thing they wanted to get on to was payroll which was a bit more complicated to do and they had that running by 1954 and I should mention that all the all the time so the committee was running all this time and as well as doing all this work for lions during the during the day at night it was running mathematical programs for the ministry of defence it was calculating logistics programs for the railway system it was one of very very few working computers in the country at the time and so there was an enormous demand from other companies to come and use it um they were doing pay once they got payroll going they were doing payroll for ford as well uh because other people simply didn't have computers and so they came and came and used leo so it's it's function as a bureau service uh was important as well as the work it was doing for for lions um and so they need they knew they wanted a second one because they were getting all this bureau work and somebody at some point said well why why don't we make them to sell so lions the world's biggest catering organisation set up one of britain's first computer manufacturing companies as a subsidiary um which is again one of the most unlikely things uh you could expect to happen so leo computers limited uh was formed in 1954 but still as a subsidiary of lions and all the people who had been pioneering the development of these applications for lions went to work for the leo computers company um and so leo two was not very different from leo one it was better in various respects which i won't go into but it wasn't all that different um and they built 11 of them uh and and sold nine and and kept the other two themselves um and i'm just going to show you a little film um i apologize for the quality of the sound it's not very good um but this is a promotional film that leo themselves made uh about the leo computer and it's about a particular application that really appeals to me um called uh the called the tea shops distribution um and the film explained i don't think i need to tell you what these shops distribution did because the film explains but i want you to notice things like virtual online working on uh sorry um yes almost online working that was going on at this very early stage breakfast all these in a varying quantity each day are delivered to a precise timetable to the tea shops and the shopping needs to last sales but before over shopping soon becomes intolerably wasteful each manager has a standing order depending on the day of the week after lunch each day and she considers her stock weighs up local conditions and decides what variations up or down she will make to her order she speaks by telephone to head office where her variations are taken directly onto primes there is no written record what the girl hears she punches at the same time a short paper tape puts in last-minute management decisions such as that girl with changes in the weather that's his flexibility provided again the program is played first laying down the sequence for the multiplicity of calculations that leo will perform next to the standing orders of the telephone provisions tea shop my tea shop are fed in with the overriding variations on the paper tape immediately packing notes begin to print 10 shops at a time at the same time charges the tea shops and sales statistics are being recorded after further electronic processing these cards provide the statistics for the use of the management means of disciplines and built into the program leo will examine all statistics but only print the ones that require action managers are in this way being precise up to the minute information enabling decisions to be more closely related to trading conditions which were printed by leo 10 to a sheet are separated a package board and sent to the dispatch some totals of the different items have been worked out for bulk movement of the several roving days although the last provision learned until 3.30 by 4.30 the deal has printed for 150 tea shops and 40 000 items exactly what is wanted at each tea shop in the right order for the different roving days they are also in the right order for the commons calls so the goods at the front of the line can deliver last and the first call is just inside the doors not only a few examples of the wide range of work undertaken by leo milling each automatic office is the result of skilled investigation and design each appon similarly calls on the experience and know how are using automatic offices leo computers limited undertake all this in conjunction with the user's stuff leo is a machine that does routine critical work more quickly and more accurately than clubs the clubs are free for more rewarding and productive work as the use of leo extends a lot of interesting social comment you can make about that film i mean the the the gender division of labour is very obvious there was one woman called mary coombs who was one of the first women who was trained at the programmer but she remained an exception and there were certainly other countries i think it was elliott's who were notable in the number of women they employed um and it's interesting because women had been you know as i say but the first computers were nearly all women um but somehow when it came to actually developing computer technology women really had to fight to get into positions of seniority despite the fact that many of them had considerable attitude um for the work but lions i'm afraid wasn't exactly a pioneer in that respect although mary coombs who's still alive frequently gets wheeled out as an example of an early woman in computing but as i say she was exceptional and all those managers with their pipes was much more the picture of what was going on at the time so leo two leo three was the first transistorized leo machine so leo was that that's how successful was was the leo computer as a business it was very advanced for its time every model was advanced at the time it came out um the customers tended to love it largely because the um the the programmers and the systems developers uh at leo also worked as what they were they were actually given the title of consultants and so whenever a system was bought they would go and spend months with the customer which might be dunlop or ford a number of different different big companies bought them um and the consultants would spend time with the company rather like and digital was talking about earlier making sure uh that the the the system that they had and the software that they had there was no off the peg software the software that they had was completely tailored to the needs of that business um and in a way that that was part of their downfall um that for various reasons one was that quite often uh the companies these consultants went and worked with like them so much they hired them so they were constantly losing their top people uh to other businesses um the the other was that it it just took them out of the company for for too much time and meant that and the time they were spending doing that wasn't properly costed that was another thing um so managing uh the the whole costs of the process of producing these computers was something that leo wasn't doing um all that well nevertheless leo three um as I say I had eight times the storage capacity of the previous version ten times the speed uh and it introduced multi-programming so you could run more than one program at a time um but the tragically that the story came to an end um because it never they had never actually made money and the the promise that introducing this to take over the clerical work would actually save money on the on what was paid to the clerks uh didn't really pan out um the the they weren't able to the the company wasn't able to invest enough to expand production enough and this was the type where IBM had suddenly woken up IBM up till this point or up to the mid 50s had really been making most of its money out of holleryth punch card machines and that selling the uh the the cards the punch cards that holleryth punch card card machines used um they woke up to the possibilities of uh electronic computers for uses other than than defence and and mathematical use um towards the end of the 50s and started producing computers in very large quantities to an absolutely standard model there was none of this uh tailoring every computer to the needs of the customer there was a standard model which you either bought or you didn't uh and and lots of people did um and really given the level of investment leo computers couldn't compute with that compete with that um 1963 there was what was billed as a a merger with English Electric but it was much more of a takeover uh 1964 Lyon sold all the rest of their leo shares uh and the company then became called English Electric Leo Marconi um the the Lyons people weren't told about this um the the sorry I mean the Leo people were not told about this until after it was a done deal they felt horribly betrayed they found themselves second in command to English Electric people at every level in the new company it was a bitter bitter disappointment to them all uh but all the Lyons people could think about was that they'd got away without actually losing any money in the end um because at that time Lyons itself was beginning to be less successful and again you'll get all the detail of that there's a little bit of that in my book um which is called a computer call leo this is why I know about this stuff I wrote a little book about it um but the money it was partly the problem of being a family company you throughout for a century or so in order to be on the board of Lyons you had to be a member of the salmon or the black scene family and you can't always guarantee that the next generation is going to be as bright as the one that's come before um and they weren't and they started making some horribly bad business decisions and so the manufacture that the catering business wasn't doing as well either um and uh by 1968 none of the british computer companies were doing all that well they were forced by Tony Bennett's ministry of technology to merge into a single company which became icl which eventually got bought by Fujitsu um and in 1981 that was the year that last lyons tee shop closed and also that the last lyon leo computer was retired and that that's quite a recent date really i mean that's within living memory for most of us um and that that was one there were a number of leo threes that were bought by the post office to run their post office billing premium bonds there were national computing centres around the country run by the post office and they had leos and they liked them and they actually forced english electric leo marconi to to make some more leos even after they were supposedly not on offer anymore because they as one of the managers said to me we like them they just worked they did what we wanted them to do um you can find out more about leo uh in various places um the leo computer society works extremely hard to promote the history of leo and we have a representative here uh in the form of john dale who will be happy to give you leaflets about leo later or and answer any more technical questions you may have and the centre for computing history at Cambridge um together with the leo computer society recently won a big lottery grant to enable them to collect and document and put on public display um aspects of of leo memorabilia um no that sounds like the wrong word bits of leos bits of leo documentation uh so to preserve the the heritage of leo um that's my book and uh i'm told that the bookcase in hefton bridge has got two or three copies in so if you're interested you can get them there um and there's this other new book legacy that i wanted to mention as well but i think although i've been talking about something that might seem like ancient history i think if we if we think about it there are lots of lessons here uh for what could have been done and wasn't or what could have been done better and one thing which i didn't mention in passing but i'll mention now is the role of government one of the reasons ibm did as well as it did was because they had massive amounts of department of defense money uh which obviously benefited their defense applications but it also went into civil computing the british government was incredibly slow to invest in computing incredibly slow to see the possibilities the commercial possibilities of computing as were on the whole british companies it was a source of enormous frustration to the leo people who really were visionary and it wasn't that this wasn't a flash in the pan this computer business they had been right from the start visionary in the way they developed their manufacturing methods the way they've organised their management and this was just another example of how visionary they were but they unfortunately in terms of british businesses as a whole they were rather exceptional and the british businesses were very slow to see the opportunities of computing and i think the other message really is this business of how much attention you pay to the needs of the user which was absolutely fundamental to the leo philosophy and which i think got lost for quite a long time but i rather get the sense that it's coming back again that the idea that you actually try to find out what your customer wants to do with this technology before you issue them with some piece of kit um is something that is is being thought about a new um and certainly i get the feeling that here in hebden bridge the idea that communities can develop these ideas and and make uh systems and technologies work better as a result uh is something that i've certainly found very inspiring here today thank you very much i think that's really nice


After successfully attacking a convoy of ships in the Yellow Sea, the American submarine USS Gunnell was worked by Japanese anti-submarine warships during a 36-hour ordeal with explosions from depth bombs periodically jolting the submarine severely. Finally, with depleted air and battery power and no other option but the service for air, commanding officer, Lieutenant Commander John S. McCain Jr. called his officers together and all agreed to fight it out in service gun battle with the enemy warships. Rather than surrender, climbing up the vertical ladder to the bridge hatch while surfacing, Lieutenant Fasey thought to himself, There must be better ways, there must be better ways, there must be better ways to solve international issues and resolve to do something about it someday if he survived. I had actually was a consultant with the Pepperdine University. I was living here and they had a small think tank never got off the ground. And then I had this idea and I wanted to start a think tank, looked at the U.S. relations with the Asia Pacific, mainly because of the tragedy of the Vietnam War and the aftermath from the Vietnam War where we pulled back from Vietnam. We had this three-day meeting at about 40 people at the seminar and they all got very enthusiastic about what we should do and at the end they all turned to me and said, Joe, what do you want to, we should continue, you ought to continue this forum. And what do you want to call it? I had to do a lot of quick thinking and I said, let's call it Pacific Forum. I thought that was a great idea.


South Korea put on its first large-scale military parade in a decade on September 26, with weapons ranging from ballistic missiles to tanks rolling through Seoul in a show of force as it takes a tougher stance against North Korea. The parade marked the country's Armed Forces Day, normally a muted event relative to the massive events the North has staged under leader Kim Jong-un that includes strategic weapons such as intercontinental ballistic missiles. A highlight was a two-kilometer parade through Seoul's main commercial and business district to the bustling Gwangwamun area that is the gate to a sprawling palace in the heart of the capital.


By the way, when you're watching this, happy Thanksgiving. Happy Thanksgiving to you and your loved ones. Oh, I love Thanksgiving. All right. I am on a quick lunch break on Wednesday heading back to Roadrunner Sports and guys, in the 21st century, I fully believe that companies including running shoe stores and running shoe companies, the ones that will survive and win in the modern world because there's so much competition out there now are the ones that emphasize customer service. I love customer service a couple days ago, an employee from Roadrunner Sports reached out to me on Strava and said, Hey, I saw your video about the levitate to and the ugly sweater. Go watch it. Upper right hand corner. I liked this shoe in the store. When I got home and I ran around the streets of Denver for, you know, three miles, the rubber through the midsole, I just couldn't get over it. I, I, I don't, I can't, I can't do it. I can't do it. So she said, come back in and we will take care of you. Find a shoe that will help with your plantar fasciitis anyway. Here we go. We're going into the Roadrunner Sports. Thank you for taking care of me. And it's sad, bah humbug, but they got to go back. They got to go back. I got a lump of coal in these guys. No, they're a great shoe and I'm sure there's some levitate to fans out there, but you get, you're picking up what I'm putting down. All right. I'm on. Patrick taking care of me. Oh my goodness. So we got a few things. Okay. This one did not have the eight and a half unless it's somewhere lurking out here. The Vongo. This is the 890. 890. Yep. Got it. I did have the Vongo. Okay. Definitely worth a shot. Clifton. Okay. Huge success with plantar fascia issues. Interesting. Yeah. Oh, interesting. That was Jessica. Okay. And then you had mentioned you liked the Peg Turbo. Yes. I love it. Yeah. Big fan of the Turbo. Yeah. I'm a big fan. So I brought the Epic React. It's got to be done. It's got to be done. It's got to be done. So many shoes, so little time. Little time. What to do? What to do? I can't even tell you, YouTube, that I was almost in tears running up and down here. No, because it felt so good. No, because the Clifton 5 felt so good. And this was Jessica's recommendation. Because you had plantar a year ago. Basically. A little flare up. Yeah. Okay. I put those on and just wore those for like a month and it was gone. Okay. Yeah, I didn't have any problems. So I've also run in some Nike's recently as you've seen. Like I actually, I love the Turbo right now. And the plantar feels pretty good in it. Not perfect. But and then I guess I should also mention the, I tried the Vongo today. And I thought it felt similar to this. It's a little more stability, but. Especially when you get a few miles in on the Vongo, you're really going to feel all of that. Do we have a Vongo here? Yep. It's right here. You'll really feel that offset. Okay. Because if you look at that, there's so much more cushion concentrate on this side. Oh, okay.  But as you get to running in it, it's really going to kind of guide you this way. Okay. And so that might cause a little. It's an issue. Especially because you're running in neutral so well. Yep. This might kind of make things a little. Okay. That's interesting. It's a great guidance shoe for people who want that motion, a little bit of motion control without being too aggressive because it doesn't have an actual medial post in it. It's just this section of foam is a lot more air padded. Okay. To guide your foot a little bit more to the outside if you usually tend to roll to the inside when you run. Got it. And how does that compare to this guy? So this. Yeah. The Clifton. Yeah. This one is just more fluid throughout. It doesn't have as much concentrated cushioning and support on this side of the shoe. It's just a little wider on the base throughout the bottom of the shoe. And it's got that little bit of a meta rocker. Yeah. So it's just going to help your foot turn over a lot easier. It takes a lot of the stress out of that plantar fascia region of your foot because you're not flexing so much in the shoe to toe off. Okay.  This one will just cradle your foot more. It's not going to let your foot flex so much. It's just a lot nicer gliding. I can't even tell you. I can't even tell you. Like it was crazy how good it felt. I was, I told Patrick like I just, I just shook his hand because I was like so happy. So I think like it felt good in both. Yeah. But I'll probably lean toward that guy. At least while you're recovering. Exactly. Just because it is a lot of shoe. If you're used to running in a lighter faster shoe like the Beacon or the VaporFly, something that just gives you a lot more pop and a lot more ground feel. You don't get any ground feel on this shoe, but that's why it's so great for recovering from planner. Right. And yeah, I use it as a trainer. I haven't raced in it or anything, but I've worn it, you know, to walk and everything. Woohoo! What does that mean? That's when you sign up for our VIP club. Oh nice. Our VIP family. We bring you in and do a little celebration. Love it. Love it. So yeah, so I've been running in this and wearing it to work, you know, walking on the concrete for eight hours. I just don't feel anything by the end of the day because it's just so padded. But I think this planter currently flared up. It flared up in basically July, and I think it flared up because I was running 14ers and like big, you know, mountain runs, Solomon shoes, very aggressive, not taking care of the feet enough. I think that's what caused it. Because did you get the flare up before you switched to road? Yes. Okay. Yeah. And if you're doing all that vert too. Yeah. And I don't know how... Yeah. I mean, that can really cause it a lot too. I know that a lot of like mountain ultra runners have issues in their Achilles region just because you're climbing so much and that's so much torque through that heel and up into that soleus region. Yeah. It's kind of inevitable sometimes. And not stretching enough and not just, you know, maintenance. Yeah. And doing the right kind of strength work and exercise to keep that area strengthened enough to do all that climbing. So it's what, it's November 23rd? No. 21st? Yeah. So I would, the season for 2018 racing isn't quite over. So my break, like I'm planning basically a two week break YouTube in December. But I don't want to stop yet.  So I'm hoping, that's why I'm trying to experiment and figure out what to do. Yeah. I mean, I would really try these. Just give them a chance and get used to them. Yeah. I know that, you know, everybody's different, but I've seen so many success stories with people recovering from planter in this kind of a shoe, this maximum cushion, just at least for recovering from the planter. And then you can go kind of back to a lower volume shoe. But this is just, I mean, from my personal experience and from a lot of people I've helped, this has done a really nice job. I mean, so many stories of people just feeling better. That's cool. Thank you for helping. Guys, look at this pile of shoes. They're not, there's a lot of them. Love it. Cool. Well, you guys, Roadrunners Sports, check them out wherever. Well, you're definitely on the west coast because you started in San Diego, but also Chicago, I believe. So, good stuff. Make sure the sizes match before we let them leave the building. I always like to double check. I know. You're so busy today, so. They never know. Jessica, taking care of me. Thank you, Jessica at Roadrunners Sports. You're amazing. High five. Boom. Amazing. Get that planter feeling better. Right. She had planter. I have planter. We're going to figure this out. Thank you. All right, guys. All right. Have a good day. You too. Thank you. Oh my goodness. We got some goods, guys. We got some goods. Oh, traded in the Levitate twos for the Hoka Clifton Fives. Thank you. Thanks, Patrick. Yeah, you too. Go get Alex. Oh, wow. So I just went back and got it. I was like, oh shoot. All right, guys. Picked up Alex. What's up? You remember Alex from the back country? Finishing, man. That was like the coldest run of our lives. That was a crazy race. That was a crazy race. All right, Alex. What are you running in today? Um, Peg 35s. Peg 35s? No turbo. No turbo. Peg 35. Alex, what did you pick up earlier in the week? How to go forward, break the bank, and some of the 4%'s. That's right. You got the vapor fly, 4% fly in it, and get to use them tomorrow in a race. A race tomorrow. Got a couple, a couple of test friends in there. Nice.  So that's a lot of miles. A lot of time to think. So it's nice to have someone to chat with. Found ground together. You never know what you're going to find on your run. Look at this guy. What is he doing? Hi, Bob. I don't know. Where is the, where is the owner? That is the question. The dog is ready for Halloween. That is hilarious. The dog is just sitting on a stump with ski goggles on. Oh, man. What will they think of next? Just this morning, we passed 5,000 subscribers. Oh, nice. Shout out to all the new subscribers. Thank you for pushing us over the 5,000 mark. It's crazy. You up and up? Up and up. Onward and upward. All right, Alex. All right. Nice work. Thanks for the miles. Boom. We got her done. Enjoyable. Good luck tomorrow. A little shakeout run. Hope you guys have a good time at your turkey trot. I'm sure there's going to be plenty of them. Yeah. All right, man. I'm going to stretch it out. All right. Life goals right here. Life goals. Not, you know, not setting a PR in the 5K. It's touching the ground. Let's see it, Alex. Look at this. Can anyone stretch like that? That's insane. I don't, I'm not even going to attempt because I don't want to embarrass myself. Get there. Hey, I give up a little bit of my flexibility for some of your speed. I've actually improved in the last two weeks. There it is. There it is. Okay. The keyword of the day is service. Service. Because today at Roadrunner Sports, I received incredible service from Patrick and from Jessica. Thank you both for taking care of me today with my plantar fasciitis issues. Guys, again, I'm not exaggerating too much when I say I was almost in tears at the store because I ran around in this shoe pain-free, pain-free. So I'm not going to give you my initial impressions tonight. I'm going to run around in it probably tomorrow afternoon, after the turkey trot, probably Friday, probably Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. I'm excited. Thank you, Jessica, for taking care of me today, for explaining, taking the time. You guys saw it in the store. She took the time to lay out the details of the Vongo, the New Balance Vongo, and the Hoka Clifton 5. She cross-compared the two, the specs, the different type of ride you're going to get underfoot. And I am just, I'm grateful. I'm on this Thanksgiving Eve and Thanksgiving Day when you're watching this. I'm grateful for the opportunity to shop at running shoe stores. Now, I do have a confession to make. I have a confession to make. Occasionally, occasionally, I order stuff from running warehouse. All right? And listen, I've got nothing against running warehouse. You know, they're a business. They got to make money. But at the end of the day, I try to support local running shoe stores. And therefore, the question of the day is this. What is your go-to running shoe store that you shop at? Because I ask that question. And why? Why do you shop at that particular store? Service, location, pricing, the employees, race series, all these different factors that go into selection. So what is your go-to running shoe store and why do you go there? Now, like I grew up in Buna Vista, Colorado, two hours away from any running shoe store. So in high school, we had to drive to the big city to go get our running shoes. And yeah, it was a little bit of a challenge. Now, you can order shoes online, but obviously, but getting into a running shoe store where you can test the shoe before you buy it is critical. It's critical for us runners. You know, like when you put on a shoe in a store and it's got the right fit, it's a heaven on earth. You're singing hallelujah. And therefore, that's how I felt when I put on the Hoka Clifton 5. And so that's why I'm giving the shout out, a big shout out, continued shout out to Road Runner Sports for taking the time again to explain this shoe to me. So that's the question of the day. Thank you for answering. I love running shoe stores. I don't know about you, but I just love, frankly, like hanging out in there and just talking, geeking out on running shoes. All right. I digress. Happy Thanksgiving. Have a great turkey trot if you're out there trotting today. And yes, enjoy some pumpkin pie. I know I will. And of course, we will be back tomorrow with results for the turkey trot. So, oh, the vapor fly 4%, they're going to be coming out again.  All right. Seek beauty. Work hard. Have on each other. See you tomorrow.


Hello, everybody. This is the boss to meet the technical committee and The technical committee is formed currently of eight people four of us are present here I guess most of you know All of us but this who is mr. David Brevner It's a left for him. Hello Philip hands Some people that we do really care about but they're not here to say hello, which are Marga, Manterola Simone Simon McVity the year about Nicotine they cannot be here today the conference. I am Boonard Wolf and The technical committee has had many many other members in the past and We thank them all and There have been we will talk a bit about the interesting things that have happened So well some may be wondering in fact my main motivation for calling for this session and for well inviting my colleagues here is Is that we want people to get involved to know what the technical committee is and we will maybe to join us at some point in the future a So the technical committee is outlined by by the Constitution Section six of the constitution Defines what the technical committee is and can and cannot do basically The technical committee can decide on any matter of technical policy Decide on any technical matter where developers jurisdictions overlap Make a decision when asked to do so Tie-breaking overrule a developer So that means a if a developer is doing something we can tell them that's not a right thing to do That's a last resort measure and just to offer advice If you want to please say say anything I'm skipping just Now the technical committee is also bounded by the Constitution a The discussion has to be public. So of course like like many other deviant teams, we do have a Private channels, but everything that we do must be supported in in public discussions and decision-making with the technical committee doesn't go into details when outlining a solution no detail design work and The technical committee is seen as a last resort so if something doesn't work out between people between developers a Technical committee can get involved. We are asked to break the ties among the available options and After after alternative options have been tried and failed So we can offer advice to you to any developer who asks That and that's precisely what what what we're currently doing that our Will get to the two bugs. We are currently working on so the technical committee is a self-nominated a board Well a group that is the technical committee asks the DPL to have members to it It's DPL appointed its last resort and it's a body for conflict resolution and advice providing So what do we do? What have we done in this last year? Well, most of our productivity has been Adding adding members and deciding who is the chair We do that via box in the web tracker in the in the past year. We have had two technical decisions So both decisions are repealing all their decisions by the technical committee because well the reality In different parts of the project has shifted. So for example This this first one there was a very long thread Some of you will remember about whether nodes could be no name node or had to be no JS Because there was another thing called node. Well, the technical committee had decided a long time ago that the JavaScript Node had to be called node JS, but now that the other package called node is gone the we we repealed that past decision most of the things well the committee is providing Points of view say qualified points of view. So in this last year we we closed four bugs without a formal resolution It was not needed Consensus was found and accepted by the developers. So we have these four bugs again. I'm not getting into the tails Currently we have two open box. We will be discussing both were opened within the last two weeks and Well, they are regarding the policies print that well is being spearheaded by Sean Whitton Regrettably has other activity at this same time But well, we're discussing whether vendor specific patch series should be permitted in the archive and What should happen when a maintainer script fail to restart a service during package installation or removal? Okay. Well, I'm missing there because I'm at the very bottom, but The technical committee has a limit a time limit of three and a half years for the permanence in it so well Simon and me were the last ones to join our term will expire at the end of 2021 and Well from the rest of us and well tolef is currently the eldest one here. He's About to leave the committee at the end of this year as well as the year was our past chair The the rules for it aren't strange, but well anyway So every year we want to get around one or two new members It's not that we need it Constitution states that the committee can operate with between four and eight people. We are currently eight so But we want to get new people to enlist to work with us to volunteer Work is not that contentious or that hard We did have a well before I joined the they did have a really really hard time deciding the system You wouldn't want to go over it again. It's a really really nice way to to stress test the backtracking system It's probably the largest bug in the entire BTS It's a rather large park. Yeah So Well, even though the name is technical committee the work is mostly social and It's about solving disagreements as much of the things we're currently discussing at this We are talking broadly about technical things But more deeply about how to solve social issues listening to people sometimes taking some decisions it's mostly a political thing and Well, we're looking for people with these qualities, right people with empathy technical agility mentorship responsiveness social sensitivity sensitivity and we're cool headed even in a word whether like we're Having no we need more diversity. That's that's true. That's a fact We I am very happy. I guess you will join the feeling of this that were a our current chair is Marga Which well brings brings some diversity in into a well mostly male mostly everything the project But we need more diversity. We want different people Say we don't have anybody from this part of the world or things like that We're looking for people to nominate themselves. So Either yourself or somebody else if you think about somebody who could make a good committee member Please nominate them. We're friendly We are available. We want to hear you. We're just people developers. Just like you and of course we want to improve processes And well, that's that's it for the presentation. I'm joining the rest of the group for for your questions Have you Have you ever gone anywhere with the road map? initiative I thought we decided that we shouldn't be in the road map initiative didn't we Yeah, that's my yeah, I think our opinion was that if we wanted to be involved in the road map initiative We do it as individuals not as a commit not as a committee Has anybody else gone anywhere with the road map? I don't know. Okay. That's great personally That's going to me is a bit too top-down, but you know, everybody can have their own opinion. That's why I'm not involved with the road map maybe Why I'm why are you here? Why are you in this session? What interests you to learn from the technical committee? Please people I think the monkeys care So since you don't ask any questions, I'm going to ask questions of the audience What are the barriers for you to bring things to the technical committee everything is great for you? You have no conflicts no differences of opinion That's great. If it's so and please say so so that the world knows everything is great in Debian otherwise I'd like to know because There's not too many things coming to us, which you know is okay. I'm lazy, so and Also, I just made a terrible bug in my C code, which I could work on instead But so please tell me Even if it's only hypothetical for you, so what might prevent you from? bringing things to the technical committee Am I supposed to answer for everyone or I guess? In my personal opinion I think the there's a history of having the projects go to the technical committee and either not finding a resolution in a reasonable amount of time or The universe exploding and so I think a lot of people have scared of Putting things forward to the technical committee. I Think this has changed We've like the for instance the term limits and everything so that's like a lot of new blood coming in regularly but Yeah, I don't know if like we have a lot of inertia in the way we see things in the project, so Maybe it will change with time I hope I think we're all pretty committed to dealing with issues Quickly if we can if there's any way of doing that So if it's if you if you imagine that it's going to be nine months of aggravation or silence That probably won't happen We might say I have a tendency to say To people that I don't think the boat justifies going to the technical committee because I think that can quite often be said very quickly indeed and Still leaving an opening for them to come back and say no really Because there are some bugs, which will clearly either Lay dormant forever or get closed and you might as well close them straight away That's the only reason I do it if if people Think I'm wrong then please just Try again So you shouldn't I've done that a few times recently Don't take that as we're just trying to throw them away Some bugs Haven't been ready for the technical committee when they were submitted I think one of the things that people don't use enough is the advice capacity of the technical committee We always use the technical committee as like the Supreme Court of the DeVion project And yeah, I I think the like constitutional Requirements that people go forward to ask the committee for advice Instead of the committee just coming from the top and saying hey, we think that maybe you should do things like it like that Could be relaxed a bit, I don't know if it's a sensible thing to do maybe Maybe maybe not. I don't know I think Since I joined we have had a quite low activity in fact At least three monthly meetings have been cancelled because we didn't have any box open which is good Which is good a bit boring, but it's good But say We have had and I think it's a good resolution after all One bug asking us to review the whether we it was right to do the change of the Init system of course and that's asking the technical committee for a resolution our resolution is no that's not our job So but but I think it's okay to just come to do to this body and ask Whatever irks you with the project probably we will I mean look into it if it's within what we have to do probably we will not but and We're currently answering two questions regarding policy Well in the same way the policy maintainers say hey, what's your opinion on this so they can have a backing to do a policy change They actually haven't asked for advice. They've don't get to the decision to us, which is slightly different You're both correct There's two bugs and one of you is correct about each of them So I think one thing That I hope can change is that people feel like having a bug forwarded to the technical committee if you're the maintainer and Somebody disagrees with you and forwards a bug to the technical committee people see that as a very negative thing and I Think we should think about Why There certainly are aspects that are negative and we should try and change those and We should also make sure that the perception isn't worse than the reality so Because it's a bit unfortunate if it's a way to get people to orphan their packages by Filing bugs with the technical committee, right? That's the systems not working. Well at that point collectively part of it You know is the way that things have happened as what I mentioned in the past, but And part of it is you know interpersonal things in the project are always a bit tricky, right, but I Don't know if there's things that we can do as a committee. I think we talked about being timely and Maybe talking to people early in the process I mean, we've had various sort of informal consultations about conflict issues Which is sort of on the edge of our formal role, but I think it's helpful And if we are really, you know, have to get into lawyering about it We can say we're doing it as individual developers, right? I mean, but I mean conflicts don't get easier to solve as they Develop, right? People's positions become hardened and they become angrier and Less rational. I know I do So a question Anything to shut me up No, in fact not David you mentioned that people might often packages as a result of of decision of the of the TC so Has the seventh and in general are you as a TC following up after your decision? What happens after a decision has been taken by you and published how this how this continues and what the Consequences of the decision that that you have published. So so what I said actually so we'll come to your question a sec but to clarify people often Their packages Sometimes Because not because of a decision the technical committee makes but because someone asked the technical committee to make a decision They just find the process sufficiently daunting so It's hard to make a decision that will make them happy and in that situation But I guess maybe somebody else wants to answer the your real question, which was do we follow up or maybe not? So I mean we do right? I mean and but it is also In a sense up to the project as a whole to say okay, or I mean usually if you bring something to the technical committee and There's two parties and one of them gets their way typically, right? I mean over simplistically, but and That one is going to Be interested in whether this decision is implemented or not and can bring the lack of implementation To that to the attention of the committee if it doesn't happen. So I think there's sort of a built-in I don't know maybe other people I mean there's subtleties that I'm missing here But of all the things that we might be screwing up. I think that that's probably not one of them I haven't really seen a big Need for it like in a formal formal way because partially because of that and partially because if the TC decides something then maintainers Don't actually go around undermining that by failing to implement stuff I think if they did then we would have other problems So I Normally get interested in the the actual problem while we're looking into it And so I quite often carry on looking at it afterwards So, you know very informal way. I sort of follow up but I haven't made a point of it so if decisions are Where about things that I'm really not interested in then I probably wouldn't notice if They became toxic afterwards. I don't know Well, I am happy and that's one of the points I pointed out in the presentation Which I must say it's basically a copy from what did they're presented late last year. I am happy that most of the things that have been decided were not a formal decision, but Was helping rich consensus So if both parties in an argument say, okay, this is no longer a problem because we have spoken to her Well, we don't have to follow through because it's done. I Have something from IRC Helmut has made a comment about why people are reluctant to Actually put things forwards to the committee He's saying that he's experienced twice that he has put an issue forward to the committee and by the time It was resolved. The issue was obsolete Not how long ago was that I Don't know I know I know that was a problem or at least a perception problem I don't know with the committee long time ago. I think it was less than a year ago, but I Don't recall exactly. I think we will get back to you with the answer I think it's a fair comment. It will always be something we need to watch to make sure that the committee is or to Try to make the committee as responsive as possible. I mean as you know everything in Debian happens According to people fitting it around all their various responsibilities but Generally people who join the committee Join it knowing that for some periods of time, they will have to Try to really make an effort to be responsive to Committee stuff so it was more than one year ago. So maybe it got better Maybe I mean I think it's a look we're part of Debian, right? So we run on Debian time just like the rest of the project and But it it's also true that it's a time-sensitive Thing so I think if you report an issue That's caused by someone doing something just as we go into one of the harder Freezes freezes just before a release then the technical committee in the past has certainly not been responsive enough to do something useful before the release happened so I Guess we just need to Notice that that's exactly what's going if that happens again. We'll have to make some sort of precipitates We've only got two days to decide this type decision It's better to make a decision than now than to make it the right decision later and Just deal with it straight away because there's certainly been more than one issue in the past where That situation has occurred and just by you know someone's effectively won their case by default Because there wasn't time to deal with it so yeah, it's it's not crazy for submitters to Explain the time aspects of their request when they make it also help us understand what the issues are Yeah, that's quite often people Assume that we're going to instantly see their side of the argument and there's no need to explain it really and If you do that, then we all go. What is this thing that they're talking about and it takes ages so if you have a good argument set it out and Possibly point out the other side of the argument a bit as well and make sure that there's Clarity about what the issue really is and then that is an introduction to the other side to make a decent argument back If it's just this person's rubbish and You need to tell them to stop doing that It's much more difficult to do anything useful in a short time Helmut has been saying that he agrees with Gunnar What you said makes a lot of sense I have another question from IOC Which is about one of the cases that just arrived in your inbox What do you think about allowing Fendo specific batch series in a source package? I Think I've made my position pretty clear that I think it's a really bad idea to allow that interview. I Haven't completely formed an opinion yet, but I'm leaning towards That I don't see a good argument in favor Of these patch series. I mean I or rather I haven't found the arguments presented so far to be convincing my my initial reaction to it was that seems like a great place to hide malware and It would need a pretty strong argument to keep them given that Because I haven't really noticed them previous to this so Someone needs to come up with that argument, I suppose I'm in line with the positions they presented and well I should say nobody has spoken for for the The vendor specific patch series so far besides the person that that brought up the the topic So I mean I cannot say state I cannot foresee what we will end up deciding but I don't see this will be a very contentious argument We're basically waiting for other people to talk and I guess that within within within this say one month period. We have between a IRC meetings, I hope it will be closed What's the question also about the other case or was he starting a question about? No, only duckies as far as I can tell at least I'm really interested in feedback from developers in general on the init scripts thing Because that seems quite subtle to me so if you know a lot about an it scripts, please read this bug and It educate me for for those who haven't read the bug It's basically should what what should maintain the scripts to when restarting a demon fails Should I fail or should I continue? I mean, yeah, there's no clear position But but we do have the problem of a as there is no clear answer We have a unpredictable outcomes Sorry, I'm I'm not asking about the question. I I just want to ask about how do you make consensus because I think the most violent argument I remember now is the upstart in the system the argument and it ends up that We have a My love to vote which one is the best? maybe not the best of which one has the most involved and So so in in general How do you discuss that and make it says normal cast all of you in the community or agree on someone? something or For this is simply easy. It's our kind of really corner cast that That we have to fall to make the decision That there's no room for discussion Yielding the microphone because I wasn't part of it. I Wasn't there either. I did watch quite a lot of the discussion. I think mostly people submitted Quite detailed descriptions of why they thought what they thought and tried to persuade one another and in that particular instance People were not persuaded so it came down to a vote but the way we more often do things is that We don't normally have to go into so much detail because it's easier to come You know, if everybody agrees at the start, you don't even We don't even vote normally or we we do a Because we have to Yeah, I think there have been instances where we don't haven't voted Yeah, because it was completely obvious that everybody agreed with doing a particular thing, but so if there's some sort of split then people start justifying their positions and The more that happens sometimes people change their opinions and then the the disagreement evaporates Yeah, in in general you try to to make the disagreement disappear by understanding why the other person holds their position and and in some cases, it's generally because you have like the world looks different from different places, but quite often it's just because you know it's it's fairly easy to align on on a world view which is This is the set of trade-offs and this makes more sense to do it that way than that way. I was thinking well Of course people will will bring this this topic of the system the decision and will probably keep bringing it up in future Years, but the thing is I'm thinking of it as something more broad I mean no, I don't remember so kind of such a Discussion or backlash when red had to do the same decision or when well many other distributions did May maybe what happens is that? We do have an open decision process people Everybody wants to be part of such a relevant decision that changes the world the Linux landscape for good but the thing is I mean the same decision was taking in so many places that Say we were recently asked Whether we should review that of course we unanimously said no, we don't want to review that but I think hundreds of other distributions are Okay with the with the path taken I think the the premise for the Asking us to review it was completely broken is the reason why when when there was a disagreement in the technical committee It was between whether that we should switch to an upstart or to system D It wasn't whether we should stay with sister being it or I mean open Rd was a long third So at this point, I think it's you know with the benefit of hindsight I think it's pretty clear that upstart wasn't going to be a great choice because where's upstart It it got event.  Yeah, but also, you know Upstarts had severe problems for quite a time and The original developer we don't have to talk about yes, I mean we don't have to But but that's the reason why the question was wrong when it was presented to us again because the question was asking it was if As if going back to Cis via knit was an option and it was wasn't an option even then that wasn't on the table So it was between two choices one of which isn't there anymore Open RC was was way behind though. Wasn't it really are there any more questions? I Shouldn't have started that. It's okay. It's system D I think the real problem actually is that people think that they are You know that Debian is theirs everybody in Debian thinks that Debian is theirs So that's why people didn't complain in red hat because red hats just you know like milk or something It's something they buy and that's not that's great No, that's really good, but that's why people get upset, you know, you don't get upset about The person that manufactures your tires changing the ingredients or something You still want opinions in the peanut gallery on what should happen when main scripts fell to be sort of service? Yes, I do. Okay. I guess like so broadly like obviously like the reason Isn't fun committee and reason that you know Nobody can really decide what which way to go is because like it is sort of implementation specific like rather It is going to be deployment specific maybe some cases where you absolutely do care and you want to fail And that's going to be something you're going to notice and then be able to take action on in other cases You know give two shits, but I think that said the default I suspect the answer should be it should cause a failure just thinking from the context of I am setting something up and see I'm sending something up via like chef or whatever and I say install those package and expect to be configured one chef one successfully Maybe you say I should add up like a check that after we install this package We know then do some health check to make sure it was both installed incorrectly configured, but I think it'd be less surprising If Like that install failed because the ended result of the service running didn't occur And then this sort of goes back to Debbie and this ethos of like, you know on by default if you install something it should be running and We of course we that's not Appropriate for every deployment. So we already provide mechanisms for you to say in when installing packages don't serve the service But I think that in the same way it would be reasonable to offer a tunable But I think that default should be to fail So it's sense It was a coach in Sofina. Yeah, it made sense I'm not yeah, so without saying yes, we agree. Let's decide it looks way But no, thanks for the the cogently expressed position Anybody else have similar different opinions? We still have ten minutes It's not that we have to squeeze every last minute of the session if there's no more questions. Well, there's Perfectly was time to have some more coffee. So thanks to everyone for coming and Also to people who are watching the stream and on IRC and hi helmet And we're looking forward to your nominations for the tech committee, of course. Yes, please think about it Yep, we are short on candidates. We want you or would want you to nominate your friends or a No, really nominating your friends is great because if you've got if you're in some little Nook of Debian where most people have never heard of what you do even and you know That there's one person that is really good at solving arguments between the rest of you guys then nominate them because that's the sort of person we want and they will broaden the the diversity of the The committee probably because they're not from the usual suspects of people that keep on turning up to debcom and and all that so if you're doing some strange little bit of Something which nobody's ever heard of and there's some very wise person that you can point out then nominate them in in terms of actually how much time it takes it's not very much we say that We ask people to reserve like an hour a week in practice. I find it it's less So it's in terms of actual workload. It's not that much Okay, I suggest everybody leaves now Bye