Cammie chaos That's right Cammie lives works parents and plays in the rainy city of Portland, Oregon She's had a love of WordPress and word camps since she stumbled upon the first word camp Portland when she became a reluctant and then excited volunteer She now works at automatic little company matter of it as a community organizer For the WordPress open source project where she gets to gets to work with word camps and their organizers every day Cammie chaos hi Welcome to you don't say the importance of earnest feedback one of my favorite places the importance of being earnest by Oscar Wilde and One of my favorite things currently is to talk about feedback and the importance of feedback and When I get nerdy about one thing I tend to like rope in other things that I'm nerdy about And so when I was thinking about what's most important in feedback. I kept thinking about being earnest and being honest And so you will have to bear with me as I loosely tie the importance of being earnest to this talk throughout it Before we dive in I always like to know a little bit about the person who is talking at me So that I can feel a little more comfortable So I'm going to introduce myself not that Dave didn't do a lovely job But I am Cammie chaos and he did pronounce my name correctly and yes, that is my real name And yes, it is spelled just like the agents of chaos on get smart if you happen to love that television show I'm a community organizer for the WordPress open-source project and I focus on word camps So if any of you are organizers or volunteers or speakers, I just want to start by saying thank you I grew up in California and In Texas But I did relocate to Portland about 25 years ago where I live with my partner my teenage daughter to very old cats And more plants than I'm comfortable admitting to you right now If you need to find me anywhere on the internet, you can find me as Cammie chaos almost everywhere except for Gmail Because someone took that before I got it And if you need to contact me for some reason you can email me at Cammie chaos at automatic comm And just so we get this out of the way. This is my very first word Camposie And now that you know some stuff about me I'd like to get to know you a little bit because I am going to do that dreadful audience participation thing This is the last talk before lunch and I'm hungry and I know all of you are hungry. So Who else is this their first word Camposie? You're lying put your hand down. Thank you Okay, is it anyone's first word camp? Welcome to word Camposie and welcome to word camps And it might be weird to have somebody welcoming you to a word camp when it's their first time to you But I'm gonna do it anyway So now that we know each other a little bit better. We have some trust and we have some common ground I want to talk to you today about feedback, which is not necessarily a common word camp discussion for people to have But it's become really important to me over the past few years To start to recognize the way that we both give and receive feedback not only in the open source project but within our work relationships within our interpersonal relationships and and so It's something that I've gotten nerdy about in the last year And it's something that I've gotten really impassioned about and I want to find a way to help other people learn to better give feedback At its most basic feedback is one human being attempting to help another human being No matter how obscured or confused that communication becomes because it can get really muddled It can be shouting it can be quiet It can be completely confused sometimes someone's giving you feedback and they don't even know that they're doing it but it is is Just basically a way to communicate something that someone else needs to know or something that you feel you need someone else to know So before we get too heavy into feedback I think we need to kind of seek out and acknowledge what our own personal relationships with feedback are and I'm sure that there's someone in the room who this isn't their relationship with feedback, but for me This is a visual representation of my relationship with feedback and some people might be like, oh my gosh, you got a Jackson Pollock slide It's amazing. It's great art It's not this is messy and it is scary and it is Confusing and I did it in five minutes because I needed a slide here and I didn't know what to do But feedback makes me uncomfortable It makes me nervous It makes me Like want to do the ostrich thing and stick my head in the sand and just pretend I can't hear what anyone's saying and that's giving feedback and receiving feedback So basically anytime I have a meeting in which I need to give a receipt feedback my impulse may first like natural instinct is to Cancel the meeting and like start coughing and pretend I'm sick because I don't want to say things to people that they don't want to hear and I don't want to hear things that I don't want to hear Right, but it's part of my work and it is Strangely enough, it's part of my entire life. I have a partner. I have a daughter I have a community a work community an open source community I've got school communities part of a startup community and feedback is In never-ending stream both receiving and giving so not having a comfortable feeling with feedback as you might imagine can make things a little bit difficult because What I would really like to do is bolster people and make them feel good about what they're doing And give them the skills and the information and the motivation to keep working on what they're working on Whether that is WordPress contributors whether that is my daughter whether that is my co-workers Or whether that is my partner who's an amazing chef and I would really like to give him that feedback So he'll continue cooking meals for me But sometimes that feedback isn't great and so when you're bolstering it's fantastic But you can't just say good things and expect feedback to work This is the last line in Oscar Wilde's the importance of being earnest But I'm going to call it a jumping off point I've now realized for the first time in my life the vital importance of being earnest and My take on this is completely different than the plays if you've seen it The importance of being earnest isn't the only thing to take away here What I want you to understand is that you can be honest and earnest without saying everything that comes into your head You can be honest and open without being cruel And that feedback isn't just something that you happen to be good at It's not something that you're like you woke up one day And you're like I can tell people everything and they will completely understand and they will be able to apply that and make Themselves a better person. It's not how it works. It is a skill It is something that you have to gain and that you can refine and that you can work on But for some of us it takes getting out of our comfort zones. So I've seen in this last slide How many of you would relate your feelings about feedback either giving or receiving More with this than with like the tranquil nature of seeing we see outside the window Does anyone love getting feedback? I'm not sure if I believe you but If it was someone else, did you say you like getting feedback? Yeah What do you what do you like about getting feedback seeing a different point of view and what about you good? So you relish it Yeah, all right You have to why do you have to and yeah, you have to adapt what you're doing to what they want So this is the audience participation time and I would like Anyone who's comfortable Please share with me the last time that you gave feedback and if you're not sure what that means I can clarify but when's the last time someone here gave feedback? Go ahead. Yeah, a week and a half ago. What was the feedback? Can you share that? Oh? No, you can't share that I Know what you're talking about. That's a sensitive community topic. I should not have told him to come in this room All right, so when's the last time someone who's not Adam gave feedback free Absolutely, I'm gonna talk about personal feedback in this talk Last night. What was the feedback if you can share it? Okay kind and constructive Excellent, when is the last time anyone here liked a tweet? Anyone here like a tweet today? Yeah, comment on a blog post Leave a Yelp review talk about french fries. Yeah Those are feedback. So anyway, what's the last what is the last feedback that someone else gave any kind of feedback at all? You in the back Someone was asking me about a friend of mine was asking about Template tags and wordpress. So I gave him feedback showed him a little bit of code Solved the problem and that was about a half an hour ago. Excellent. Well done And you over here. You had some feedback. Are any of you involved in a mentor relationship? Yeah, anytime you mentor someone or are being mentored. That's the giving and receiving of feedback Anytime someone hasn't done something that they should do That's the giving of feedback. There are three general types of feedback And so if any does anyone else have anything they want to share about feedback that they've given or received before we move on to The types of feedback. All right. So The examples that you threw out everything that I'm gonna talk about all falls into three categories appreciation Coaching and evaluation and they're all incredibly common. We don't necessarily think about What kind of feedback we're giving when we're giving it and I feel like it's common knowledge what each of those means but as My partner and some very very smart other people say common sense is not common. In fact, it's only common to you So I want to make sure that we have a common ground and a common understanding of what each of these three types of feedback are The first one is appreciation and this is where you tell me how much you like my talk Thank you. That's lovely feedback. Awesome Appreciation is fundamentally about the human relationship and connections But in a project like ours, it's very important work like making sure that you show appreciation is What keeps the wheels moving in open-source projects in volunteer positions? In nonprofits when you appreciate someone or something that someone is doing you're making sure that they feel heard You're making sure that they realize that their work means something to someone You're saying I see you and you're recognizing that they exist and that they matter The problem with appreciation is that sometimes we don't understand how to keep it appropriate and how to keep it on topic And so when you're appreciating someone make sure that you're appreciating them in a way that is Specific and appropriate to the relationship that you have with someone For as an example you walk around a word camp and someone says something really smart And it's fantastic to be like that thing that you said was life-altering it caused me to think about things in a completely different way Thank you so much. You're very wise. That's great Walking up to someone and saying hey your hair smells amazing when you don't know them It is appreciation It is awkward and it is not kind of a welcome source of feedback Unless that happens to be like your kid.  So make sure that you keep appreciation appropriate to the level of relationship that you have With the person you're sharing it with coaching Coaching is aimed at trying to help someone get better or to grow and change Sometimes it's getting out of a box that they have placed themselves in sometimes. It's improving something that they're already doing But coaching is a way to take someone who has knowledge and gained experience and share it with other people So when we talked about mentoring earlier mentoring is is a form of coaching Coaching is obviously a form of coaching And I know I saw some hands earlier people who have like a formal mentor relationship. Yeah You look like you want to talk What am I saying so you're in it are you the mentor or the mentee I am the mentor And what are you mentoring on I? Train somebody to be a front-end developer from nothing to working in Marketing engine firm. He just got his job. So it's been two years of me working with him over the Internet's It's it's very fun and also quite frustrating sometimes I love him to death What is the what is the most rewarding aspect of that feedback the appreciation the feedback the mentor relationship? Seeing somebody gets something good for all their work And what's the most frustrating? Having to repeat myself okay. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I feel that one especially when I know that someone is very good at taking notes Yeah, and that slides into evaluation coaching and evaluation or like Anxiety and depression. They are best friends Coaching and evaluation often slide back and forth with one another Appreciation can sneak in there too, but evaluation should not be Emotional it shouldn't be Easy it should be based in context. It's an assessment It is an evaluation of how you're doing and this is the form of feedback that at least in America We start children with the very earliest you send a child to kindergarten and They get a report card and it might not be the letter scale, but we tell them what they're doing We evaluate their performance. We evaluate their behavior. We say hey You're doing this. Well, or hey, you're doing this poorly thumbs up. Good job thumbs down.  We skip e f And that's our earliest relationship for most people with Feedback and evaluation and but it's hard not to let evaluation be clouded It's hard to just objectively evaluate a situation or be objectively evaluated Without having some really intense emotions around it because unless someone is just saying yes You're perfect. Thank you Everything you have done is great. That's definitely not coaching. That's just pure evaluation or a everything is awful and you're fired Everything in the evaluation in between is a way to then move into coaching and improve what's happening Clear feedback under has an understanding of what kind of feedback you're giving So if you are in a mentor relationship, you should not necessarily be Evaluating them heavily you do have to do a little bit of evaluation because you need to know how to help them move on But the goal there is to teach them to grow and to help them move further along if you are Evaluating you should not be coaching or mentoring you should be letting them know the facts of what's happening And if you're appreciating someone, thank you. I appreciate that you appreciate people So if someone asks what you think of the design of their most recent site and you answer that question You are evaluating them If someone asks you how they can improve the design of their most recent site and you answer them You are coaching them if someone asks what you think of their latest site and you just say it's awesome Nothing wrong here. You go. It's evaluation and appreciation All right, but as I said before please keep all topics Relevant to what's going on. You don't want to get into a feedback loop with people that is not on the level of relationship that you have but also you need to be honest and You need to Not necessarily say everything that comes into your head Because sometimes our relationship with the feedback we're giving is more problematic for ourselves Then it is for the person that we are giving feedback to and this is something I haven't always been terribly good at So when I started learning about feedback heavily it was a class I took last year after my sabbatical and one of the Exercises that we did we were asked to think of a time that we had given feedback and Then to look back the feedback we'd given and figure out what job we were trying to do with it And so I'm going to tell you what I consider to be a large Feedback error on my part that I experienced just before I went on sabbatical last year I had been preparing everyone for the fact that I was going to be gone for three months and Letting them know that if they needed to talk to someone at my work They could email these the shared queue and if someone would help them a Particular person that I had been working with emailed the queue and said I Need to know who my contact is going to be while Cammie's on maternity leave and My teammates saw this email and went oh my gosh Cammie's pregnant and she didn't tell anybody and She really quickly assigned it to me so that no one else would see it And she sent me a personal message and she was like if that's true Congratulations, I'm happy for you But I wish that you'd felt comfortable sharing that with me and I had no idea what she was talking about And I went and I opened the email and I read it and I slammed my computer down and I stormed out of the room And I poured some tea and I was really mad. I was really upset I had a very emotional response and it came in two big parts The first one was that's the most sexist thing I've ever heard in my life Of course you think I'm going on maternity leave. I'm a woman and I stormed around ranting about that for a little while and I was very upset and then I was like oh It's because I've gained so much weight and it's true I had gained a significant amount of weight and I was like maybe he thought I was pregnant Because I've gained weight and then I realized that I'd never met this person face-to-face Because we work on the internet, right? And I I was just nothing could really calm me down But I did the hard work of trying to calm myself down and convincing myself that I had Climbed out of my feelings box and found a good calm place and I sat down and I answered the email and I Let off a feminist rant The likes of which no one has seen sense about how it's never acceptable To make an assumption about every reason that a woman would take time off work and how dare you I Earned my sabbatical just like every man in my company and by the way You're welcome to email this email address and someone will help you And I took that with me on sabbatical I took those feelings on sabbatical and then I came back and I took this class and That was the feedback that had stuck with me the feedback that I had given because it didn't feel right I was still upset But later on I kind of realized this poor man Didn't know me. I have no idea why he thought I was going on maternity leave Maybe he had me confused with someone else Maybe he heard me say that I was looking forward to spending time with my kid when I was on my sabbatical I'm not often specific about her age. There are any number of reasons. It could have been just an innocent mistake He just didn't know what a sabbatical was And the job that I was trying to do Turns out to be let him know that he had reached the right email address That's what I needed to do. Who is going to be my contact while cammy is gone We don't know but you have to send email to this email address and I take that Moment with me any time I give feedback now and it seems simple to say Oh now every time I have to give feedback I consider what job I'm trying to do but it's something that I've really tried to do Mindfully in all parts of my life And so I present to you an example that I think most people can relate to My kitchen is often very dirty It is not my job to clean the kitchen Because I have a teenager and that is what and the things that my teenager is good for It is her job to clean the kitchen But my kitchen is often not clean and in the past the conversation has gone something like this Me the kitchen isn't clean her okay Me please clean the kitchen her when I'm done with this video Do it now Her massive nuclear scale meltdown freak out. Ah, you're so mean. This is so unfair. What's wrong with you me? Why are you so lazy? I just want you to clean the kitchen. Why can't you get it done? I need the kitchen clean? And then like everyone's rolling eyes and everyone's blown out of proportion and the feedback I was giving my child is Evaluation you have failed To clean the kitchen that is your task And now I kind of stop and I say Kalia. Will you please clean the kitchen? It isn't clean and we can all accept that this is feedback, right? Okay, and She says when I'm done watching this video. She's watching probably a game walkthrough on YouTube Or she's reading a book and trying to change the world. It's one of the two with her And so I say please clean the kitchen and she says when I'm done with this video And I want to freak out and say why can't you just do the thing that you know you're supposed to do I want it done right now and Then I stop and I say camey. What do you want to have done here? Do you want to get in a fight with this person or do you want the kitchen to be clean the job that I would like done is to have the kitchen clean and So I stop and I say how long is that video and she says something like three minutes and 27 seconds mom and I stop and I say okay. The job that needs to be done as the kitchen needs to be clean Obama's not coming over Right. There's no reason that my kitchen needs to be clean in the next four minutes. And so I say okay And I walk out of the room and no one rolls there as anyone and miraculously usually within half an hour She is in the kitchen cleaning it up and there may be some evaluation there Yeah, there may be some evaluation She doesn't wipe the counters still She would prefer just to put dishes in the dishwasher and not wash the pots and pans but It's still getting done. I am getting the job done that I need done And I'm giving her feedback that she can accept because I'm doing it in a way that she understands and appreciates being respected So whatever the type of feedback we're giving Whether it is to our peer To our boss to someone that works for us to someone in the community to our child to our partner We should strive to give it in a way that respects the relationship. We have with that person and that is constructive and kind And when you are giving feedback that is specific to a project or to a task or to a goal You should make sure to keep that feedback about the project in no world Has it ever helped when I tell my teenage daughter that she is lazy When what I want her to do is clean the kitchen that is personal feedback I need to give her construction feedback the kitchen isn't clean Please clean it So please keep all of that in mind Now when feedback is delivered in anger what happened when I told my daughter all the things She responded negatively Her receiving of the feedback was broken. My giving of the feedback was broken So when we give heated feedback or angry feedback it creates a feedback loop It creates kind of a vicious circle where someone is more like a little lash out and pretend They can't hear you or ignore the feedback that you're giving as Incomplete or incorrect if you give someone angry feedback they can just blow it off. They're like, yeah, I don't like you either No, this is fine If you give someone concise feedback on topic Hopefully it is something that they will absorb when I receive concise feedback about a topic I am more likely to stop and rationally think what job were they trying to do there Or how can I apply this even if I don't think it's right? How can I apply it? so When you are respectful and kind people are less likely to block you on Twitter And you are more likely to give them good feedback and receive good feedback from them and return Because the receiving feedback and receiving feedback well as the flip side of the coin For every feedback that is given we also need to consider how feedback is being received And we've touched on that giving feedback in a way that the other person can take Sometimes you need to express yourself Someone will give you feedback in a specific way and it's not a way that you can hear Sometimes you need to say something sometimes I hear feedback when I'm in a conversation And I do much better when I receive feedback in writing when I can see What someone is saying when I can look at it and take the emotion out of it and understand what job they are trying to do What feedback do I need and when I can kind of absorb it? On my own time not everyone is like that. So if you are in a formal feedback situation It is always appropriate to give the person giving you feedback feedback on how you'd like to receive the feedback And I'm gonna say feedback four more times feedback feedback feedback Ultimately we have control over giving feedback, but that's best control the strongest control We have is how we receive feedback and also what kind of feedback we receive This is where I tell you That sometimes you don't read the comments It is absurd to have a hard and fast rule about what one should and what should not read More than half of modern culture depends on what one shouldn't read and I was having a great Conversation with a woman earlier today about things. She chooses not to read anymore because they make her stressed out They make her unhappy the feedback that she I see you back there. You're hiding. Yes And and I feel very much the same way about news about feedback about so many things when we bring in so much negativity Sometimes it's not something that we can cope with anymore And it's important not only to understand what feedback you Should bring in but what feedback you shouldn't bring in so when you receive feedback Make sure that you're being mindful of yourself and your relationship with that feedback Make sure that you are taking care of yourself and make sure that if it's feedback You actually don't need to have that you distance yourself from it and find a way not to receive it that being said in most cases any Feedback even angry feedback is something that can help you if it's an angry troll incorrect feedback It helps you learn how to ignore feedback if it's feedback that's angry But has a core of truth it helps you kind of understand. Wow something that I have said or done has really Significantly impacted another person's emotional state And they feel so deeply about it that they don't even know how to express that feedback to me It doesn't mean that they have the right to be angry with you. It does mean that you can learn something from what they're saying But in most cases, I do think we should just avoid reading the comments That's my prepared feedback section I Would love to hear any questions or for anyone here to share their relationship with feedback or talk about feedback If they're interested in doing that otherwise you can all sneak out to lunch a few minutes early. Oh And here's some phenomenal resources those two books in particular are fantastic anybody questions comments Desired ahead to lunch. I didn't want to end but I did have a question. Okay. A lot of times our feedback is generally negative Yes, how do you?  There's a thing I didn't talk about there's a the most common talk the most common type of feedback Coaching that people give is that it's the poop sandwich. Have you all heard of this form of feedback? Yeah, so it is people will say you should always buffer negative feedback with two compliments I Think this is the worst way that you can possibly give feedback because it makes you be insincere with someone So you're not being honest. You're not being open You're not telling them anything that it's important for them to know and you're kind of Discounting the important thing that they could really learn from so instead of spending your time thinking about two Positive things so that we can counteract that generally negative feedback. I find a way to make that feedback feel constructive But also it is really important to me to be grateful and thankful for the wonderful things that people do in my life So I tried to make a point of giving positive feedback and I wish other people would too it doesn't have to be like Oh, you look pretty today. That's a nice dress. I mean it can literally be anything. You look like you're in a great mood Yeah, you project I don't know why they put that microphone on you Yeah, just when when someone when someone does something that you appreciate Don't as long as it's appropriate. Don't keep it to yourself I mean where we ultimately are the people who decide how much positive feedback there is in our lives. I Sound like a hippie. I know it How do you give feedback to someone if they do not want feedback if they've closed their comments So in the social media age, that is what we use Twitter for most of the time I mean if they close comments if you do not have access to that person in person you cannot email them You can't leave a comment and it's something important that they know I would go ahead and send a kind DM I I understand the need for calling people out with things But I prefer to call in first and see if I can resolve the need to give feedback that way Mm-hmm. I I notoriously will tweet it companies when I'm not getting if I'm on hold for an hour and a half I tweet at them instead Yeah, this is perfect because I was gonna suggest that if you get good help from a company like Bank of America or the IRS Tweet it out. Yes, I've done it before and I even got response from Bank of America a Direct message to find out who that person was because they really wanted to think them personally. That's awesome I have been I I like shoes people. I like shoes. I'm not even gonna lie Zappos has the best customer service and I love I love to say nice things about them So yeah appreciate people appreciate companies And you know what appreciate the people that are close to you appreciate the people that you work with Appreciate as if you appreciate someone, please let them know. I appreciate all of you. You stopped through my talk. Thank you So my question was actually gonna be exactly that I'll let you be a hippie for a second How do you express gratitude in your life? And what is the appropriate mount not to sound like you're crazy? Okay, so that one I kind of probably err on the side of crazy sometimes And I admit that I try my best so in my personal life My partner is a very grumpy Man, he is very grumpy and very surly and everyone often wonders how We've got like the Mary Poppins and then the old man in the sea grump situation And people often wonder how that works out and I hope he's not watching the live stream, but it's true And so I make sure to tell him regularly Well, he is an amazing cook and he cooks for me all the time and that is one of the way that he appreciates me He knows that I work hard and he knows that cooking is exhausting me. He is appreciative of that He doesn't mind cooking. He cooks for me and then I tell him how good it is I regularly remind him that the work he's doing is really for the benefit of the community You kind of have to hone in there's like people talk about people having love languages Giving people compliments and giving people positive feedback can be a love language with my daughter She needs to hear that she's loved. She needs to hear that she is going to be okay She needs to hear that her generation can make the future a better place same with her her friends I have a really close relationship with several of my teenagers friends for some reason And I appreciate them with work. We have a kudos system But we can only give three kudos a month and so I make a point of like popping notes in slack When someone on my team does something awesome. I let them know When a checker at the grocery store is super nice to me and I didn't have to self scan I tell them how nice they are and you know how I appreciate that they smile every time I come in and I think we just have to work hard to Keep it relationally. We're like I was talking about having the relationship with the person you can always give positive feedback You know, he's give appreciation as long as you're mindful of the relationship you have with that person And I'm mindful of the fact that the drugs are downstairs Thank you guys so much


Yeah. Hi, everyone. Hi, how are you doing? Okay, so I just wanted to talk a little bit about the Code of Conduct for this meeting and just to let you know we're here to respect each other. We know the rules. If you want to go ahead, I just wanted to re-emphasize being respectful and kind to each other. Today, I would like to talk a little bit about KubeCon in the EU, United in the Cloud, and where we could include the wins. Okay, so yeah, it wins. Okay, it just was term of clarification. Thank you. Okay, so we were talking about that in Chicago, right? And that's not about, okay, so yes, I was just recently speaking, I was about the keynote in Chicago. It was really terrific, a wonderful experience for everybody. And I can't even explain how that all happened. So, anyway, I'll do that another time. But I just wanted to keep this meeting as brief as possible. But also, looking back at the technical talks at KubeCon. But from Maori to Deaf Engineering and all the contributions there at that panel discussion and that lightning talk about empowering deaf and hard of hearing folks in the Cloud wave. And so, and the interviews that we did, it was just really just phenomenal experience. And it was great experience. The whole KubeCon was just fantastic. So, I know people were everywhere, you know, we just were scattered all over the place. I know it was pretty crazy, but it was great. And we did some new interviews as well. And we did some really strong technical interviews as well. So that all went really well at KubeCon. And I know there was a lot of stuff going on. And if you want to know more, please reach out, I'll be happy to talk with you about it. Or our happy hour, our signing happy hour that we have, we can chat about it then and talk about KubeCon, what happened there. So, if you have any questions, just please let me know. Nothing. Okay. Anastasia is next, I think. We were going to talk about language access at KubeCon, and what we do for Europe as well. So, we were talking about if we wanted to use universal sign language ASL or some different language or combination thereof. We've got a bit of a problem because I'm not sure interpreters have been to that conference before. And I'm not sure they fully understand about how communication works with interpreters and why we would need sign language access there. And those sorts of things that we're having some problems we need to address with making decisions about how to move forward on that next conference. And deciding what is best for us. And yeah, if you, you know, we want more signing and you might want to put it in the database what you're thinking of. And then we can reach out and get interpreters once we decide what to do. And we have some of that world collaborative sign language kind of gestural universal sign that they do. And like the World Deaf Federation, they've had that sort of thing there too. And I would like to kind of understand what their experience of the universal sign language was there, if they used ASL or universal interpreters or what they did and get that understanding going. So what did you want to talk about now? This is Malod here. And I'll do this just one little quick thing I want to add to clarification. For the interpreter, if I could just add a little bit. When I'm signing for Catherine. Okay. Yeah, for Catherine. So Oh, her sign name is Catherine just clarifying for the interpreter. Martin has a question. One second. Okay, I'm hoping to sign. I don't have ASL. I use international signs. I'm going to ask the interpreter to interrupt me if they don't understand. But we were talking about seven having interpreters using one language. And I think it's best if we just have one international sign interpreter instead of having many different languages. And we just need people who have awareness and understanding of international sign. And we want to make sure we're finding and it can be hard to find people that are really good interpreters at that particular language. So in our country, I do know a few people I can coordinate with. But I think we should be able to find interpreters who can come and do international sign. If people want to find interpreters from their own countries, they can do that to work alongside those international interpreters. Hopefully that message is clear for everyone. So Anastasia saying so for the conference, having one interpreter will definitely need a team of interpreters because of the amount of time so they can switch back and forth because they definitely get tired. Doesn't really matter what language we choose. We're going to need a team so they can switch in and out. Probably two to four interpreters. Okay. And so when they're up there on the stage along with the speaker, we'll have maybe one or two or four interpreters on stage. We'll definitely need a team because I don't know how many and I don't know how the budgeting will work on that. But Catherine might have some ideas. Catherine, I wanted to ask Catherine a question. And I wanted to tell them like in Chicago, we had interpreters, but I don't know who managed the CEUs for that. And I don't know if it will be the same as for us. But I know that Chicago, they gave us each two CEUs, every deaf person had every two interpreters as well. So there was more than enough interpreters at Chicago's conference. And the keynote on the stage, let's see, if you want to think about different sections where you have your own interpreter and bring them along with you so that you can check out different things at your will and they can go along with you. But I can't say that will always happen that there'll be someone available for you to just grab and take with you where you ever want to go. But it might help, it might be better. We did something like that.  Yes, yes, thank you. I'm a French West, so I can help you to find a French interpreter who knows the ESL or ISL. So I can relate to them. So for my niche, I send you any address of interpreter interests. So I have a list of interpreter who knows ISL and ESL, how many interpreters you need. Anastasia says, well, when we have ASL interpreters in America, we have two per session. In universal sign language, you know, I haven't, in British sign language, I think there's two as well. So I don't know what Destiny or Milad, what your experience would be with ISL or what that would be. For me, ISL, ESL. Okay, yeah. It's a different situation. So I don't know. We must know how many interpreters you need to train them. Can I just say, so I, oops, sorry. Catherine, did you want to go ahead? Yes, I don't think we need, that's for us to figure out right now, right? That's the problem for the CNCF. So the CNCF, we'll see how many, and like what we want to help them is like, can we recommend agencies? Can we help them with what should be the official language? One thing that I think has to be clear is we cannot expect to have, well, first of all, there should be one main language, and I feel that since it's a European one, it's probably going to be international language that's going to be the main language. We cannot expect the CNCF to provide two interpreters for a specific country for each person, because that's a lot of coordination. It's very complicated, because if someone does not come, let's say we have two Hungarian sign interpreters, and then something that is sick, and then you have those, and those that are not available are not useful for other people. It's really complicated logistically. So we have to be realistic and see like, okay, we have international sign language. My question is like, I've seen you communicating, and I know you're all from over the world, and somehow you are able to communicate. So it seems to me like some, so I don't know what the ideal is, is international sign language accessible to most of you? It's like, because I've seen you talking, I cannot differentiate between ASL, of course, and whatever else you're talking. But what are the asks that, so we have to create recommendations, and what is something feasible that they can implement where it's accessible to most of you? Maybe it's not perfect, perfect. But again, like having specific interpreters with very specific language, which scales for once, for one attendee only, it's going to be very complicated, and it's going to be a logistical nightmare, basically. So and one thing that I mentioned to Anastasia is, we have to be careful how we frame things because we don't want it to sound like, okay, this is unreasonable and crazy, and then they're not taking us seriously, right? So we have to think a little bit what is the middle ground and what is feasible and good for everyone. So I know it's challenging. And I think that's why we should also kind of ask like WFD and so on, like, what are they doing? Because I think none of us actually hasn't experienced with international events. So maybe we need more information. But those are kind of my concerns. And I just wanted to voice them. And but the number of interpreters and everything, that's not something we need to figure out now. That's like the CNCF, we'll figure it out. We just say like, okay, here are agencies, you will know who registered, they will contact them, that's not our problem, right? So we're helping them but that's a little bit too much in the weeks basically for that. So this is Martin, and I would like to add something. Maybe if we have some deaf people using international sign, if they need specifically something for their sign language, like maybe Estonian or something like that. Is he maybe people that don't understand international sign? So how could we work with people like that? Wanted to respond to Martin. I would, Destiny's saying I would like to emphasize. Do you? Okay. So Milad, and everyone who is in the EU, okay. When you get your resources for you, you could see it send them to CNCF and find out what they're planning, or how they're going to operate it. And then you could speak to them directly or then Rob or Jay and myself or Jason could do some further negotiation via email with them and find out what is best for us about how many interpreters we need and which language specialties we require. And then we can advise them on what's best for us to make a proposal that the working group has come up with resources and send that into them. So that we're not, you know, freaking out over the logistics, you know, it's not really for us to worry about the logistics. We can give them resources to CNCF. And then I don't know, maybe they'll have a specific planner assigned to the project. And then we can keep in touch with them about what kind of interpreters will be best and what events need interpreting, et cetera. And so they already have a resource list so that they feel confident that they can that can source that for us. So and we can definitely say we'll work together if they need help, if they need, you know, any assistance at all. But we can hold on those decisions because CNCF is actually going to operate it and make those decisions. So if we want international universal sign language, we can certainly make those recommendations to them and they'll negotiate with them from there. And so that's what Rob and I did for Chicago. If we had any issues, we negotiated via email, and would say, Oh, that's not right. Or we prefer this or that. So and they were very receptive to that. Does that make sense? It does. Yeah, I think that sounds good as you're saying. And Destiny says, Well, yeah, we don't, we had a great learning experience in Chicago, but you will be again, a new learning experience for all of us. So I'm hoping that we could have more people stand up and say, Hey, here's what we need for interpreting. And this is what we need to provide. And we can learn from that.  So I don't know how we don't really know how it's going to work yet. We're hopeful. And we're not going to be afraid to make recommendations to them and hand them resources, but we don't know exactly how it's going to shake out. Does that make sense? Okay, I got it now. Okay, go ahead, Catherine, did you want to say something again? Sorry. Okay. So I think just because I think we could probably talk about this for an hour and we have lots of other things on our list. I think the best approach is really figuring out how other organizations who have done international events for deaf people, what's the best practice, right? And then maybe work on the document that Anastasia created, and then kind of come up with something more concrete. But I would really kind of want to know what they do because it is complicated. It was a lot easier in North America, right? So we have to acknowledge that it is a lot more complicated. And we need to find something that works for the deaf attendees and is not crazy for Linux foundation. And so we, we don't need to reinvent the wheel, right? Like other people have done it. So I think let's see, or like, and if you have other ideas for organizations to ask, please let us know. Let's reach out. Let's I think like now focus on reaching out an organization, asking them what are the best practices that you have identified, and then kind of put that into the document. I would also recommend trying to do that as soon as possible, because it takes time to plan. And last time we gave the CNC a very little time. So the more time they have, the better the experience, right? Because it's gone as again, it's going to be a little bit more complicated. So the sooner we can get that done, I think, the better. Anything else on that topic? Anastasia, you maybe? Um, Catherine, I will send an email to the World Federation of the Deaf today. And we can close this topic and pass it on to Catherine for other items that we wanted to discuss today. Okay. Um, okay, so CUBE Comparer scholarships are open. So everyone who wants to attend, please go ahead and submit that form. There are two questions that I wanted to have. And one, it says, please list any CNCF projects you have contributed to. It's very geared towards open source projects. So just put CNCF deaf and hard of hearing working group. It's not a project. So it can be confusing. But that's where you contribute. You're all contributors there. And then there's the other the last section where you are supposed to describe how you contribute. That's the most important part where they're going to base their decisions on whether you're going to get accepted or not.  But if you want just do a Google Doc and share it with the team so we can help make that really strong. Because that's again, that's the key part of the whole document. So yeah, just like a call to action there. Don't forget to do that. And then Milad knows about that. So we have KCDs. We have these community groups on community.cncf.io. And these are local community groups and local events that are done all over the world. And Milad discovered one in Budapest. And he wanted to attend and we contacted it was very near work for me. Yeah. It's a lot of hearing people went to it. I was the one deaf person who is there. So it was a little difficult to have access. There were no captions. So it was a little difficult for me to do. But it was still important for me to be there as a deaf person. I needed to be there. So I was able to learn something. And so maybe for next time, maybe in December, because it's not too far off, maybe I'll try that again. And hopefully it will be more accessible. They'll be able to add something for me. But I can talk with them about what I needs, what kind of tools can be put in place for me. Yeah. So one thing that I talked with the CNCF is could we create accessibility pool like something resources that any KCD worldwide in so they're going to add in their registration forms. Do you need accessibility? That is not a question that is asked right now. So they're going to include that question. And then people can say what accessibility they need. And what we want is that the CNCF has like something where a KCD can go and say like, hey, I have someone who is definitely would like to attend. Can you help me with captions tool? Can you help me with whatever? Right. So I asked the CNCF and they have they want to do this. But like it's up to us to kind of help them create it. What do we need? Right. So so I think the good thing with the cloud native Budapest because we have Mark was very interested. He's the organizer. He was very interested in making this a great experience for me lot. Of course, it wasn't as great as it could have been because like there was there are no tools, right? So I think like, can we make a cloud native Budapest or guinea pig? Right? Let's let's see. They are willing to do that. What does cloud native Budapest not need? Yeah. Um, yeah. And then and then once that works, we say like, okay, let's have this as an official CNCF pool and then like any cloud native group worldwide can access that and we start kind of talking about that. So, um, it's great that we have a group. We have an organizer who's willing to do this, but it's up to us to kind of come up with what is that package that they will need. Um, so of course, first, we need to prioritize KubeCon EU, right? Because that's like, but like, I think like that is like, I would love to work on this as soon as possible too, just because we want to make those events accessible and as soon as possible. And something that they included already. So the CNCF is recommending everyone to ask accessibility questions, because they want to know what is the need. So they told everyone who has a group, you should include that into your form. Just to gather data to like, they have no idea how many people will need accessibility, because that question was never asked, right? So that's an important first step. And then the last thing I requested to remember that I think Milan and Rob were talking about creating or doing Kubernetes sessions and whatever. And I said, we could actually do our own community group. It's not virtual, it would be the same as the cloud native Budapest, but it would be like a virtual one cloud native signing meetup or whatever. And it could be you could do these tech talks there. And it would also be more discoverable. So other people would find that it's also online. And that would be like, start, we would start creating like content in sign language. And it could be like any sign language, right? Like whatever you kind of do or mix or whatever. But like, let's let's start creating and making that available. So people who are looking for events can see that that exists. And so, so I think that's great. So I did request that. It's still kind of pending because of KubeCon, I think, or whatever, but it should come soon. And I assume we'll have to know who is the manager or like the hosts. I think probably Rob and Milan for sure, because you wanted to do this, but you can have several hosts, right? Like you own basically that platform and that group, just as Mark works, does own the cloud native Budapest, like several people could be the host for that. So hopefully we'll have that soon. Any questions or comments regarding the community groups? Astasia saying, I do need also for like accessibility problems to be remedied in the UK, because I know we are working with them. And I know they're focusing on KubeCon EU now. And I plan to let them know that we can definitely give them some assistance on that as well. Awesome. And excuse me, this is Martin here. I'm having a hard time watching everyone. And it's kind of hard on my eyes, because it's very small. So I'm going to leave so I can get some second screen. So for about two minutes, I'll be gone. And then I will come back when I have a nice larger screen. Okay. So you're welcome to keep doing your thing. It's just I'm going to be stepping away from my computer. Okay. Okay, sure. And so the other thing is what I love to this is a long term kind of project, but I would love to start building a database of interpreters. And I asked the CNCF if we could do this. The idea is like it's all freelancers, no agency involved. So interpreters here get more money. And it's also more accessible, cheaper for the people hiring them. And they get more. So I think it's a win-win. So the CNCF had something similar like a speaker bureau. So you could like request speakers and whatever. So I was thinking something similar. And this is for interpreters all over the world might and people could say what kind of sign language they have where they're based if they want to do are available for doing things virtual or in person. It takes a long time because it takes a long time to actually find enough people. So it's useful. But the CNCF said they would be willing to do that or interested in doing that because they also want to have access to good interpreters. We could also try to provide training material because our yeah, I mean, our everything in Kubernetes is very specific. So how do you sign Kubernetes? What are all the so people can start getting used to it a little bit with the technical cloud native terms, making it a little bit easier. And so yeah, I was talking to Chris Anacheck and he was saying like, well, let's start with a Google form where we can start capturing all that information. So interpreters here as well. If you're interested, put your name down. It's supposed to be good for all of us. So yeah, and like if you know, I think first of all, what do you think about the idea? Because I like it. Yeah, because I don't know finding interpreters was difficult, right? So finding interpreters who are willing to do conferences, who are familiar with the space is even more difficult, right? Because it's not technology, it's like cloud native. So again, it's a long term project. But I think like as people see it and as interpret to see the benefits of kind of participating and learning about that and being more active, I think like it can grow. So hopefully maybe in a few years, you know, you have a really good database. The idea is that KCDs maybe you might just pull from that database, right? Like let's going back to the Hungary example again, maybe there's someone in Hungary and then just go there and they can find that interpreter who was kind of familiar with the terminology in our space. So if that sounds good, I think I'm just going to start a Google form stock and then we can just like put it in, yeah, link it in the agenda. So interpreters here can see it too. And you can also reach out to your interpreters and let's just start gathering names. And oh, and before I do that, I will do and ask all the questions that I think are important, like and then have that for review as well. Because I think it's straightforward, but maybe something I'm missing, right? Like what type of languages where they're based and so on, but maybe something I'm missing. So I'll share the draft whenever it's ready for feedback and then we can start gathering names. And I will answer that in a little minute when I'm done. So the other thing I was talking, so I was talking to Chris and a check as well. So the people who were there at Cubequan, you saw that there are awards. And I would love to see awards for companies that hire people with disabilities, right? Like companies and not necessarily like the big ones like Apple and Microsoft and the companies that actually have a lot of money. But I think that's a nice way of raising awareness. And then also like, you know, giving a shout out to companies who are making that investment. It's more, it's more of an effort in hiring a hearing person. And so we do want to celebrate that and kind of give them credit.  So I think we can actually basically do that in Paris. We have to come up with a name and probably also kind of figure out how we select a company. So we don't have to figure that out right now, but foods for thoughts. Any ideas or comments on that? Yeah. Yes, and if you can go and talk, if you would like, you can you can go ahead if you'd like to send me a print talk. Oh, one question I have is to show the committee, the community that we are planning to give an award to. It has to necessarily work with the awareness technology that you send that you send that we want to give to give an award. You send that we want to give an award to companies who are hiring people with disabilities. Okay. So my question is, does the company necessarily have to work in Kubernetes technology or it can be any technology? I think that's a good question. I think probably not like, I think they don't have to be like super into cloud native, but maybe somehow like in that space, right? Like use cloud native technologies or something. They don't have to be like very, very cloud native, but I think like a link would be important. Catherine, I think a link to the cloud native local opportunities might be something good if we had if we knew what was accessible and what efforts were being made, you know, so we could thank them. And also where people were working. If we could get some idea of where they were from KubeCon and and then have them be like a part of the cloud native community in terms of that, I don't know. Well, that's our goal, that's what he's saying. And that is to demonstrate hopefully to other companies who can see that and duplicate our efforts there. Yes. So so just to let those companies know if they want to hire people who are deaf to join their companies and grow that network, there are resources there. Yes. So what we can do is educate everyone and give them some visibility on it and educate them so they can know that there are resources there and they can feel more comfortable to move on with hiring more of us. And it doesn't have to be that hard. We can help make it more easier for them. So that will be something that we could do that other companies who've done it could partner with companies who have not to demonstrate that it is a possibility. It's doable and here are the resources you need to do that. So I don't know the right word for it. But when people can see someone else doing it and they can hopefully by demonstrating and educating make other companies still comfortable to do that as well and think, well, maybe it's not as bad as I thought. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So I think we want to we also want to get to employers, right? Right now we're how do you make conferences more accessible? We started with the big ones. The second one is like, how do you make local events more accessible? The next one, which we really have to focus on because this is like an open source communities, like it's probably not gonna be that crazy, but it's like what do project needs to know like need to know, right? Like project owners and maintainers for so people can contribute to open source project. And then I think we want to do that with employers, right? Because that's actually the most important part of all, right? But so I think like as we work on those recommendations, I think yeah, we should also kind of see like how like how can we use that companies who want to educate, help educate other other companies who are kind of curious and want to know.  And so I think the award kind of leads towards that, right? And then kind of because we haven't really focused on employers yet. So I don't know if we can have people who actually or find employers who actually want to help at this stage just because we haven't made those we haven't really focused on that yet. But I think that's definitely should definitely be the goal of what we're working towards for KubeCon Paris. I was just thinking maybe we do like also like a Google forum where people can submit votes for companies that have hired people with disabilities and why so you can nominate people and maybe we kind of have that out there. Everyone here can can nominate someone the CNCF can share it on social media and we just do like a request out there and ask people like who do you want to nominate and why and then we make a decision based on that, right? And and how long they've been doing that. So that might be the easiest way to get started because obviously we don't know all the companies here and we should kind of allow companies that are not necessarily that don't have employees necessarily participating in these conversations also to be nominated. So what do you think about that? I like that. Justin says this is Jay. I was wondering if we could have a way of linking up people with disabilities like those who are deaf and hard of hearing. Sorry, can everyone see me OK now? Yeah, I'm sorry. Go ahead, Jay. Yeah, if we could have like deaf and hard of hearing folks or people with disabilities in general. Willing to talk about accessibility, inclusion and everything, sure. But their experiences that have been good or, you know, so so not so great or, you know, some or needs improvement, that sort of thing and maybe take a vote and have them vote for that company when they've had a good experience there. Maybe that's a way to do it. Destiny, I understand what you mean. So for example, like if you've had experience with your company, that's not been good. And we could offer to give them resources to help them improve their accessibility experiences for employees and in the hope that they will alter the way they do business and maybe become someone who is voted for in terms of a company receiving accolades in the future. So I don't know. Just, hey, it would be better for your employees if you do these things or utilize these resources. Or this is how you could support your deaf and hard of hearing employees. And if they do make a change, applaud them for it, you know, and maybe they could at some point get a most improved vote or something like that for making the effort. That's just an idea. I'm looking for the right words. I don't I don't know. But correct me if I'm wrong. But that's just the thought. And what did you say, Melod? Yes, I wanted to add on some experience. In my opinion, what I see is that each company is different. And so if we could look at their websites, they may say, oh, yeah, we agree. We need to have full accessibility, but they may not. It's not something you can automatically believe because sometimes it's just marketing and advertising. So companies may say things. But if you actually look at what they're doing, there's no experience of them actually doing what they say. So we need to make sure we approach that and specifically fight that. So, for example, just a couple of weeks ago, I had an interview with another company. Very well known company, very world renowned company. I think it's like the second financial company in the world. Morgan Stanley. So I wanted to look into that because they talk about accessibility and support. And I was curious whether they actually did that. So I sent a resume and CV to them. And the next morning, they said, yep, we're ready for an interview.  Any sort of accommodations? I told them what I needed, like an interpreter. And if I were to work full time, I would need an interpreter because I want to make sure I'm able to work smoothly with my colleagues. And then for the last interview, I said, I do need captions. And if we can bring an interpreter, I felt like everything was looking great. And then the day of the interview, it didn't work out. They didn't know how to turn on the captioning. Everyone was very confused and lost about how to do that. And I had sent all of this information in email, but they hadn't followed through on anything. And they were very apologetic and they said, well, let's try next time. But then things kept getting delayed. They kept having to learn something new about how to make accessibility work. And it was going higher and higher up the chain. So obviously to actually provide the access wasn't as effective. Once we finally got everything working, the captions were there. But then they said, well, we can't have chat. I was blocked from using chat. Well, I'm not then able to access and give information from my sign. It was one of the worst experiences. So I encourage everyone for any kind of influence we can have on companies to make them go through the learning process so that the next time they are more prepared for other people, we need to keep pushing and providing these examples. I know websites can talk about having full accessibility, but I don't trust what I read on websites. Yeah, just I think that is something that I would love to do as part of the employer education. As well is how do I or best practice? I know you you've provided all that information, right? But yeah, I mean, there is a lot of ignorance or no experience or whatever. And people were apologetic, which is a good sign, right? Unfortunately, they didn't read it properly. But like providing guidance for employers while interviewing, for hiring, right? So ideally, if by the next interview, you can send them a link to a website versus like putting everything in there, right? So I think that that that will be really helpful, right? It will also help other people who may not know what to ask for until it actually happens, right? And you may forget things or something. So I think that that that is a good experience and it's kind of sad that it's happening with such a big company who should have more experience with that or a little bit. But I think that those are things that we can try to address as well. Going back to the award. So I think like that's something we have to kind of think about, like it's not like the CEO of a company should be able to to say, OK, I'm going to submit myself because I think our company is really great, right? So if we should kind of define like who is able to make those recommendations, like those nominations, maybe it should be someone with disabilities, right? With their own experience, we have to think about it a little bit. But yes, it should definitely not be someone who is not impacted by it and just believes it's a great company for or or a very disability friendly company. And they have no idea what the reality is. So we have to make sure that that is not the case, right? So I think, like, let's let's do that, right? Like, let's come up with a little form. Again, I think I would I put that as the third priority because the most important thing is like, figure out, keep on you, figure out community groups and then the award. We can do that a little bit in parallel. But I think those are kind of because there are a lot of things that we want to do. So I want to keep us a little bit on track of what is the most important thing. So if there are no. Other Oh, no, sorry, I almost forgot this last thing. And I know when I started, it was interesting in that. So while talking with Chris, I attack again, that's the CTO of the CNCF. He told me that there is a budget for creating educational material. The Linux Foundation has budgets for that. And it was like, oh, if there was anyone in this group who would like to do that, you know, in sign language or whatever, because that's like feel obviously that is not covered. There is a budget for that. I don't know how it looks like, but I assume like people are compensated for creating that. I know we have people on this call as well who would do that as a hobby. So I don't know if that's like some interest. I know Anastasia has interest in that. It kind of fits into the community groups thing as well. So that is more like live, but like it's also educational. So that, that would be really cool. I think to create content and a sign language about cloud native. So Anastasia, did you have any questions? I know that we were going to talk about that, but yeah. Oh, you're talking about the educational materials. I would need more, really more information on that. And like would need to come up with a plan. Yeah. I have to see like what I can ask for first, I wanted to ask like if there's anyone who's interested, right? And it's good to see that there is someone I can ask them for examples of other people who have created content for Linux foundation and have been compensated for that. Like what, what does it look like? And yeah, then we can take it from there. Right. And I think like it would be great to kind of combine it with the live community groups is like if we do that, if one of you does like a tech talk there, maybe do something a little bit more polished, but then like for an actual like long-term kind of video that lives a little longer. Yeah, I think it would be, I don't know, like combining that since there is an interest in that as well would be great. Yeah. I don't have too much information, but I will ask for specific examples so you can have a look at what that looks like. Maybe I can add something as well for content, technology content. About three years ago, I started doing some content on YouTube where I wanted to showcase more deaf people and to show the technology that they can learn. And up until now, it seems like the community has really grown. Honestly, worldwide it's grown. So now I'm starting to see more proof of how this works so that it's something we can actually show that there is accomplishment coming from it. So maybe we could support this and invest in it to make sure that that content is provided. It would take teamwork on how to get that up and running and get that content out there. So, but I do see YouTube as a fantastic place for content. I mean, millions of people watch YouTube in a month. So I think that would be a great place to put out the content. So I would suggest YouTube. Well, yeah. And the good thing or one thing that is beneficial doing it as part of the Linux foundation is that that gives a lot more credibility. Like, I know it's a huge name, you know, so it's like, I think like the YouTube is great too. I don't know where that that kind of content lives. But like whatever is done in the community groups can certainly be also like republished by the CNCF. But like leveraging the Linux foundation name and doing like signed content, technical content within that name also kind of is a totally different. Liga, right? Like so I think like if there is any way we can do that, I think that would be there. That would be just amazing, right? Because it shows also like the embracement from the Linux foundation and the support. So I think we need everything. Okay. So, but yeah, I don't have, I'll follow up with more information about what it is and where it would live. I think it would not live on YouTube, the paid, the one that is paid. Yeah. I was thinking of like, like Harvard University in the U.S. or any of the big universities, they'll have people sign some kind of talk, some educational talk and it's like a big platform is what I'm trying to say. And Linux would be a big platform as well. And it would be better than just one person putting out their own content somewhere. So it would be like the branding, the name would lend it cloud or credibility. And so just see what I'm saying. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm thinking too, if we really make sure it's good and open for, we want to make sure we want to teach as many people as we can. So like putting on a larger website so people are able to access and see it and be able to participate and teach other people, other deaf people and have a better reach would be great. We only have five minutes. So I know that we had some points from Martin and some deep. I wanted to be sure we get to those. Mark, do you want to go first? Okay, so I was talking about speech to text. So really quickly on this topic. With speech to text. I, there's really no way to focus on the machine. I mean, I know there's a lot of things growing on how to get the machine learning going and get the technology, but I specifically want to focus on connecting interfaces. So that way we'll have better captioning, better speech to text so that we're able to get all of that information in one central place where we can all build and grow on the technology. And I want to improve accessibility for everyone. So for one example. Maybe having five people who work together. Sharing ideas and all working together. So I think that would only make accessibility better for everyone. So it's important that it's an open source. And I know CNCF has people who have experience and working with this and that's great. They're very excited to want to do this, but I also am thinking of finding other people who are interested so that it's not too focused in one area. I think that was one idea I wanted to put out there. There are many out there where we can draw from, you know, and to kind of create one best place for that, that would be awesome. Yeah, I think if we can bring in lots of different places, it doesn't have to just be in one. And Sunday, we wanted to get to your message as well. Sunday. Sunday, did you want to comment on what you put in the chat or on the agenda? I've already put it in the document. Do you want me to speak it again? If you want to talk about it, you can, but you don't have to, your choice. Because I think we are running out of time. Maybe we can just continue the conversation on our Slack channel. Sure. Yeah, we can definitely do that. We always run out of time. Our meetings are full. So, so much to discuss. So it's, it's a little bit of a shame, but let's use our Slack channel to continue the conversation. I think that's a good, there's good way of pulling up. Does it sound good? Sounds good. Okay. I think one minute. I think we're there. And one month. Because the last week of December is a holiday, no. Oh, let me check. Oh, probably. We will probably try to switch it then. We have to look at the calendar and maybe we pushed it a week. Yeah, we'll have to check. I didn't, yeah. I didn't think about that, but yes, it's probably not a good time. Okay. I'm really happy to be meeting you all for the first time. Yes, we're excited you made it.  Bye.


Yeah, you would stop right in front of me, wouldn't you? All right, keep going. Where would the coconut cream even be walking slowly walking slowly? Oh, look someone else having a chat right in the middle of the walkway.  Are you kidding me?   There it is lucky. I stopped oh man I'm sorry for this now to go to the checkout.  What do you mean unidentified item? I just got here


The Equitable Life Assurance Society presents This Is Your FBI. This Is Your FBI. The official broadcast from the files of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Presented transcribed as a public service by the Equitable Life Assurance Society of the United States and the Equitable Society's representative in your community. From time to time, in their 30s and early 40s, most men and women ask themselves, What will I be doing when I am 65 years old? What are my chances of being 100% self-supporting when it's time to stop work? Well, that's largely up to you and the decision you make right now. One such opportunity for an important decision will be offered to you in our middle commercial. It tells about the Equitable Society's Independent 60s plan. This plan means exactly what it says. Financial independence for you in your 60s. Do you like that idea? Then please listen carefully to this important message from the Equitable Society coming in about 14 minutes. The subject of our FBI file, hijacking, it's title, The Return of Father Crime. Recent investigations have given the public a new conception of organized crime. Today you know as well as do your law enforcement officers that top men in the underworld have infiltrated into respectable social circles. They may live in excellent neighborhoods, send their children to exclusive schools. They themselves often belong to the good clubs and bend elbows amiably with respectable citizens at the 19th hole. These men run crime as a big business and frequently make fat profits through the unsuspecting people they can sort with socially. Your FBI has long known this menace and you can rest assured is doing everything in its power to uproot it. Tonight's dramatization from the official FBI files is a case in point. Tonight's file opens in a large Midwestern city. A man sits in the steam room at a fashionable club. He looks up as he hears the door open. You in here? Yeah. Thought you were coming in the office today. I got tied up on that auto radio deal. We finally got our price. Good. Oh, nothing to clean up before you leave, is there? No. I'll only be gone a few days anyway. You're flying? Driving. I'm stopping at the springs on my way back for some golf. Oh, that's a great course. If you don't slice. So I hear. Thought it might hit Chicago too. Look at some of that freezer equipment. You still like that idea, don't you? Yeah. It'll open up a new feel for us.  Why don't you meet me Tuesday in Chicago? You can look the stuff over. No, Tuesday's no good. No open house at Ted's fraternity. I promised to bring him and that red-headed roommate of his back to town for a little fun. Oh. Hey, somebody told me Ox Martin is getting out. Oh, when? This week, I think. Seems like he's been away forever. Well, it has to be 25 years. Yeah, this'll be a brand new world for him. No more guns, no more muscle. Should we get in touch with him? What for? Well, we were partners. Well, that was a long time ago. Well, let's get dressed. We can have lunch before you leave. What are you doing home? I'm tired. Oh, you're tired. Well, isn't that too bad? Would you like to get into bed and have me bring your dinner? Can a guy get tired? If he can afford it. How much did you make today? Four and a half. Four and a half dollars? The kid next door steals more off newsstands. What were you breaking into? Elsie, Elsie, these days everybody's locking their cars. Oh, you poor boy, isn't that tough. Maybe you ought to stick a card in the windshield with your name and address on it. Then people could mail their loot to you and you wouldn't even have to get out of bed.  It's going to be a sweet job explaining you to my uncle. What uncle? Ox Martin. He's getting out Monday. He'll be meeting you. I want to know what you're doing. Why do I have to make character with him? Because he just might give you a job. What makes you so sure he'll get back into action? Honey, Ox Martin is the toughest man this town's ever known. And the biggest. He's been 25 years, a long time. He's still got connections. Frank Boyd and Hal Shelby used to be his partners. They were all in the hijacking business together. If he wants he can move back in with him. But they ain't hijacking anymore. They've got plenty of other tensions. And what if they don't want Ox? Ox wants them he'll move in. Later that evening at a local arena, the police athletic league is holding a series of benefit bucks. Seated near the ring are FBI Special Agent Taylor and police detective Mort Rocks. Jim, look at that kid punch. He's got a great right hand. Where do you see the middle weights? One of them's the kid I arrested last year for snatching purses. A woman refused to prosecute and I got the boy to come down to our gym. He doesn't turn pro. He wants to be on the force. You know, Mort, the league sure does a great job fighting delinquency. Yeah, it's too bad they didn't have one when Ox Martin was a kid. Who's Ox Martin? They started piling up a record before I joined the force. Ox Martin. I don't think I've ever heard of him, Mort. He's just finishing a 25-year stretch. Gets out Monday. What was he in for? Murder. He was a tough cookie and he had brains to go with a muscle. He originated quite a few techniques. Like what? First hijacker ever to use detour signs to run the trucks into ambush. First to use a state troopers uniform to stop a truck. They didn't invent a way to stay out of jail. No, that's one they all miss. All right, come on, Cody. All right, Jim. Let's see if we can root this kid in. Come on, boy. Just a minute. Is Chelsea laying in? Who are you? I'm her uncle. Ox Martin? Well, cheek. Here, come right in. Come right in. Thanks, thanks. Yes. Uncle, Mr. Martin is here. She'll be right with you. Here, let me have your coat and hat, Mr. Martin. You just make yourself comfortable. Uncle Ox. Hello, Elsie. Gee, I don't know what to say except, well, it's just wonderful seeing you. Yeah, yeah.  Yeah, same here. I guess she's chained some, huh, Mr. Martin?  She's a very attractive young woman. Well, thanks. George, how about digging Uncle Ox a drink, huh? No, no, no. Don't bother. Otherwise, it'll be a pleasure to toast you being home. I don't touch this stuff. Well, when I was a kid, they told me you were a two-quarter day man. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's before I went away, honey. I haven't had a drink in 25 years. Say, do you mind if I sit down? No, sit right here. Thanks, thanks a lot. I'm a little tired after my trip. You got any plans, Uncle Ox? Yeah, plans? Plans about what? What are you going to do? Oh, I got a couple of ideas. You going to work alone? I don't think so. I may hook up with some outfit. Shelby and Boyd are still around. Frank Boyd and Hal Shelby? Yeah, they're big men these days. That's so. Doing what? I got a lot of touches. That'd be a good spot for you to move into, Mr. Martin. No, I didn't have anything like that in mind. What you just said, you wanted to hook up with somebody. I had something a lot different planned. Yeah, like what? Working with flowers. Oh, you mean muslin flowers? No, no, no, no, son. Just tending the flowers. What are you talking about? I was head gardener at the prison for over 15 years. I learned a lot about flowers. I'd like to get a job in that line. You mean be a gardener? A legit gardener? That's right. What's the joke? I still see it.  I'll see what's so funny. I'll tell you later. Right now I'm going up for a walk. Do you remember telling me about Ox Martin? Oh, sure, Jim. Well, according to the records, he was once arrested with two men named Frank Boyd and Hal Shelby. Yeah, they used to work together. What do you know about Boyd and Shelby now? Enough. Why? Well, the office just got word from Washington that they might be mixed up in handling the loot from a dock hold up back east. I'll give you a list of their warehouses. I haven't got enough evidence to get a search warrant. Have you ever worked on them? Yeah, I arrested them for selling stolen property five or six years ago. They were convicted but got short terms. They're tough to call, Jim. You see, they've got three or four legitimate businesses to hide behind. Really legitimate? As far as we can find out. What was stolen back east? Whiskey. We've got the serial numbers that are on the crates. Can I have a list of them? Yeah, I think I've got an extra one. Here on me. Yeah. Yeah, here it is. Thanks. Now, come on back to the file room. I'll get you everything we've got on Boyd and Shelby. Honey, you should be home here, entertaining your uncle.  All right, joke over. Where is he now? In the bedroom sleeping. We'll see that he doesn't leave the house. Why? What for? We're going to use him. Yeah, for what? I got a deal figured out. I'll tell you about it when I get home. Mr. St. Ox Martin, your uncle. That's right. I'm Elsie Lane. Well, sit down, Miss Lane. Thanks. Ox, uh, get out, Diddy. Yes. I heard the other day he was getting sprung. You seen him? Yes. How is he? He doesn't look a day older, Mr. Boyd. Oh, that's fine. And he's real anxious to get back into action. Oh. That's why Ox sent me here. Well, I guess we could find something for him to do. He's not interested in the job, Mr. Boyd. But you just said... You were his partner once, weren't you? You and Mr. Shelby. Yeah, that's right. That's how he wants it to be again. Look, Miss Lane, that partnership was 25 years ago. As far as Ox goes, it still stands. He told me to tell you that, too. Then suppose you tell him something right back. Tell him to get a lawyer in Sewers. He means business, Mr. Boyd. So do I, young lady. Now, if you don't mind, I've got some work to do. That's you, Elsie? Yeah. Where have you been all day? Trying to work an angle. Where's Ox? He's in the bedroom. He got up once, wanted to go out. He said he had to get some medicine, so I told him to go back to bed and phone the drugstore. And it sent over. Is he sick? No, it's something he takes all the time. What's his angle you were working? Well, I went to see Frank Boyd. Told him Ox was feeling great and looking for action. What was the idea? I said that Ox sent me there to tell him he wanted to be a partner again. Oh, you go for it? No. You're lucky. How could you sell that wreck in there as a guy who was feeling great and ready for action? We'd keep him here. I'd be the gopiter. Hey, wait a minute. I just thought of something. What? I just thought what Ox would do if he was in shape, and Boyd turned him down. He'd move in on those guys, make it so hot they'd have to take him in. Yeah, but, Elsie, he ain't in shape. It doesn't matter. Ox's specialty was hijacking. Well, use that against Boyd and Shelby. What do you mean? Well, find out when they're sending a truck out, and it could be hijacked with the same tricks Ox used. Uh-huh. Then I'll write them a letter. Write them a hijacking and sign Ox's name. They're very bad. Who'll you get to hijack the truck? You. Turn in just a minute to tonight's exciting case from the official files of your FBI. But now listen. Ah, I guess that's the mailman, Helen. Our check from the Equitable Society comes today. Every month, right on the dot, those equitable checks come to members who have paid up their Equitable Independent 60s plans. They're checks that mean financial independence for life after you're 65 years old. And here's Mr. Duncan Cameron, who started one of those plans 26 years ago.  That's right, Mr. Keating. 1950 is the year I stopped working and started to enjoy life. In other words, Mr. Cameron, you're now enjoying the three freedoms that go with an independent 60s plan. First, freedom from money worries and job worries, financial independence. My children will never have to worry about me, Mr. Keating. I've been doing fine as long as I live. And completely on my own, too. Second, with an Equitable Independent 60s plan, you're free to live anywhere you please. Wife and I have moved back to the town we were born in. We'd rather live there than any place else on Earth. Third, freedom to do the things you've always wanted to do. I bag some mighty fine tasting quail last hunting season. I think I've a better shot than ever. You know, Mr. Keating, the turning point in my life was the day when the Equitable Society representative showed me you don't have to be in the high-income brackets to afford an independent 60s plan. That's a fact. You don't have to earn big money to begin an Equitable Independent 60s plan. Ask your Equitable Representative to explain why you probably have a big head start towards independent 60s because of your social security and the life insurance you already own. Often, only a small amount of additional insurance is all that's required. A few dollars a week did it for me. Friends, why not profit by Mr. Cameron's experience? Phone your Equitable Society representative without delay. Or send a postcard care of this station to the Equitable Society. That's E-Q-U-I-T-A-B-L-E. The Equitable Life Assurance Society of the United States. The I file, The Return of Father Crime. It brings to a people more than casualty lists. It also carries in its wake a wave of crime. That fact has just been proved again by a crime survey taken by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. The study covered the period since last June when the Korean War began. It shows a pronounced upswing in many types of crime. Mr. J. Edgar Hoover, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation in commenting on these figures said, and I quote, these increases reflect a criminal trend which, if unchecked, will greatly impair the security of the nation's home front. An increased public awareness of the seriousness of this menace is absolutely essential if America is to remain strong and free. Tonight's file continues at the FBI field office as Detective Mort Ross approaches Agent Taylor's desk. Jim, I've got some word on Boyd and Shelby. Oh, what's that? I heard a rumor they were trying to unload a shipment of whiskey. Any proof? Not yet. You dug anything? Yeah, I think maybe Boyd and Shelby came in. Well, a state policeman reported stopping a car on Highway 10 for speeding as he was riding out the ticket the driver mentioned seeing another trooper just up the road stopping a big truck. Uh-huh. Well, nobody was patrolling that other part of the highway. So this policeman drove up there and found the motorcycle painted like a state trooper's. That's Martin's technique. Any leads off the motorcycle? No, I was stolen last week here in the city and we've got no description of the truck. How'd the trooper happen to call you? Well, the man who got the ticket remembered seeing an ICC license plate Well, good luck. Well, we're not on a case yet. Oh, why not? Well, until we get some definite proof of theft from an interstate shipment, we've got no jurisdiction.  So why don't you try and locate Ox Martin? Hey, Frank. Oh, hello, Al. How was the trip? Well, the golf was awful. The business was great. Wish I could say the same. What's the matter? Well, we've been having a little trouble. Wednesday morning, a dame shows up at the office. Said she was related to Ox Martin. Mm-hmm. She said she had a message from Ox. He wanted to move in for one third of our action. Oh, that's great. It didn't turn out so funny, Hal. One of our trucks was hijacked last night. We lost a couple of hundred cases of whiskey. What? This morning, this letter arrived. To Frank Boyd and Hal Shelby. As I write this, I'm sitting in front of 200 cases of very choice whiskey. That should give you an idea about what happened to your truck. I'll knock off a lot more of them unless you boys change your mind and declare me in. Signed your old pal, Ox. Well, what do we do? Well, let's wait for him to contact us personally. I thought it was Ox. Ox? Where is he? Not for a walk, I guess. You let him go out? I had nothing to do with it. I went out for a newspaper. When I came back, he was gone. Oh, that's great. Suppose he runs into Boyd or Shelby. How would they know? And look, he probably just wanted some air and went around the block. That still isn't good. Have you been to the garage? No, not since last night. I thought you were going to go over this morning and check the whiskey. Oh, I slept kind of late. Get over there now. What about Ox? I'll wait here till he comes back. I'll meet you over there. Say, Frank, are you sending out those electric blankets tonight? Yeah, I plan to. I think we ought to put two extra men on the truck. That's a good idea. Yeah. Well, Ox Martin? Yes, sir. Tell him to come in. You wearing a gun, Hal? Yeah. Come in. Don't you know me, boys? Ox Martin. We know you. You fellas haven't changed too much? You might have put a little around the middle there or maybe lost a little on the top. Here you boys are doing fine. What's on your mind, Ox? Oh, nothing, nothing. I just heard where your office was and thought I'd walk over and see you. Of course, if you're busy or something like that. What's all on, Ox? Get to the point. I don't know what you're talking about. That letter you sent us. Letter? What letter? Don't give me that. I didn't send you any letter. I suppose you didn't knock off one of our trucks, too. Okay, boys. Honestly, I don't know what you're talking about. This letter is hijacking. Did you send your niece to see us? Elsie? Yeah, Elsie Lane. Well, I'm living over to her place, but I didn't send her here. They've been kind of nice to me. They took me in. Let me stay there till I find a job. You see, I was hit gardener in prison and I'm gonna look for something in that line outside. Frank, I think he's leveling with us. Oh, what about the hijacking? I got an idea he's being used for a front. Ox, where is this place that your niece lives? Right down there in Townshend Street. Suppose we drive you home? Port the bureau is in on the hijacking. Officially? Yeah, the truck was found abandoned and the state police discovered part of a broken whiskey crate inside it. Was there a serial number on the crate? Yeah, I know it's one of the numbers on that list that I gave you. That sounds like Martin is working against Boyden Shelby, not with him. Yeah, I know. Have you examined the truck? Yeah, the license plates were stolen down south. How about chassis and motor numbers?  Lab's trying to restore them now. Or have you gotten any lead on Martin? Not a thing, Jim. But if he pulled that job, he must have had plenty of help. No, why do you say that? I got this report from the prison today. Says he spent more time in the prison hospital the past few years than he did in his cell. And look at these new pictures of him. Looks like a sick old man. Boy, he sure does. If he was in the hospital that much, he could still be needing medical attention. I've already thought of that, Jim. I checked her local doctors in the hospital and he hasn't been near any of them. Did you talk to the prison about his state of health? No. Let's get him on the phone. They could give us a lead. No. I thought you were going to wait for him. I left a note for him. Tell him to come here. What would you do that for? This would be a better place for him to stay. We can put a bed in the garage office and if he wanders out, nobody in this neighborhood would know him. What are we going to do with the whiskey? I got a lead this morning on a customer. He wants to give us $20 a case. What? Oh, buttermilk is worth more than that. Do you want to dig up a buyer? No. Okay, then. Just let me. We're back here, Ox. Your note so I came right over. Good. I brought some friends with me. Who? Remember me, Miss Lane? Frank Boyd? Oh, yeah. It's my partner, Hal Shelby. There's the whiskey, Frank. Yeah, I see it. Ox, why'd you bring him here? They wanted to meet you. Look, we're busy now. We're waiting, Miss Lane, till our truck arrives. Truck? For what? To take our whiskey back. What do you mean, your whiskey? It belongs to us. Well, I'm glad to hear you admit it, Boyd. What? Stand right where you are, all of you. I'm a special agent of the FBI. You're all under arrest. Good Hal Shelby, George Lane and his wife, Elsie, were convicted in federal court on a charge of violating the federal theft from interstate shipment statute. Each received a sentence of five years. Ox Martin was released following the proof of his innocence, supplied the court by your FBI. The phone call made by Special Agent Taylor to the prison hospital where Ox Martin had been a patient was put through in order to learn whether Martin had been supplied with any prescriptions. Upon learning that he had, Agent Taylor and Detective Ross checked drug stores until they found the one which had filled the order for Ox's headache pills. The stores supplied them with the address to which the medicine had been delivered. As they approached George and Elsie Lane's place, they saw Ox Martin come out with Boyd and Shelby, get into a car and drive off. It was then a simple matter to follow them to the garage. And so your FBI, in cooperation with the local police force, closed another case. And removed four more criminals from circulation. Removed them so that at least for a while, they will no longer be a danger to you, the American people. Final question on the cost of the equitable society's independent 60s plan. Mr. Keating, I still find it hard to believe that a plan like this doesn't run into big money. Well, you already have Social Security, don't you? That's so. You already own some life insurance, don't you? Yes, I do. Then you now have a big head start towards an independent 60s plan. A comparatively small amount of additional life insurance may be all it's required. Get the exact figure from your Equitable Society representative, or send a postcard care of this station to the Equitable Life Assurance Society. Next week, we will dramatize another case from the files of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. It's subject, homicide. It's title, The Mountain Murders. The incidents used in tonight's Equitable Life Assurance Society's broadcast were adapted from the files of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. However, all names used are fictitious, and any similarity thereof to the names of places or persons living or dead is accidental. Tonight, the music was composed and conducted by Frederick Steiner. The author was Jerry D. Lewis. Your narrator was William Woodson, and special agent Taylor was played by Stacey Harris. Others in the cast were Walter Catlett, Georgia Ellis, JC Flippen, Henry Morgan, Paul Richards, and Carlton Young. This is your FBI is a Jerry Divine production. This is Larry Keating speaking for the Equitable Life Assurance Society of the United States and the Equitable Society's representative in your community. And inviting you to tune in again next week at this same time when the Equitable Life Assurance Society will bring you another thrilling transcribed story from the files of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. The Mountain Murders on This Is Your FBI. Stay tuned for the adventures of Ozzie and Harriet. There's fun for the whole family when Ozzie and Harriet come your way next. This is ABC, the American Broadcasting Company.