I ask those members who are leaving the chamber to please do so quickly and quietly. The final item of business is a member's business debate on motion 7412, in the name of Megan Gallacher, on future of childcare. This debate will be concluded without any questions being put. I ask those members who would wish to speak in the debate to please press the request to speak buttons. I call on Megan Gallacher to open the debate up to seven minutes. Thank you. Good early years education is fundamental for developing vital skills that will help children succeed in life. Promoting, developing and nurturing those skills along with strengthening families are important ways to improve long-term outcomes for children. Research shows the development of important emotional, cognitive and behavioural skills take place early in life. Those foundational skills are not only important for a successful transition to primary school but for later academic achievement and social adjustment. Giving our children the best start in life should be a priority for every MSP that sits in this chamber. I am passionate about early years education and it is one of the many reasons that I got involved in politics. I want Scotland to be the leader in early years by supporting parents and giving our young people the tools they need to achieve. However, the reality in Scotland today is that 1,140 hours is failing our children, parents and private voluntary and independent sector. The Scottish Government is facing a crisis on top of a crisis. Parents are not being able to choose which nursery their child attends. PVI nurseries close on their doors. Staffing shortages. Reduction in child minders. Out-of-date systems. Relationship breakdowns. Nursery owners not knowing if they can afford to stay in the childcare sector. All of those are happening under the watch of the Scottish Government. Since returning from maternity leave, I have been in contact with nurseries, charities and organisations who have raised concerns over the Government's handling of the childcare crisis. The SNP has a responsibility to make sure that policy works for parents and their children. If free childcare cannot be delivered, it will result in a worst start in their early years for education. Parents will be unable to work because they cannot get the childcare that this SNP Government promised them. I had hoped that, during my maternity leave, things would have improved, that the Government would finally get to grips with the problems that I and others have been raising for years, but nothing has changed. A former nursery owner in Aberdeen told me that she just couldn't take it anymore. She has now sold her nursery and left the sector completely. Modern apprentices in South Lanarkshire are being paid more than fully qualified childcare practitioners, but the private voluntary and independent sector is still expected to train and not retain. In North Lanarkshire, a legal dispute has delayed parents from being able to access childcare. Parents are now in limbo as to when they can boot nursery places for later this year. In another council, the PVI sector was told that they were no longer partners but contractors. The PVI is at the end of their tether and the silence coming from this Government over 1140 is deafening. We have been told that reviews are under way, but no statement has been made to this Parliament recently on early years education. Reviews should lead into action, action should result in change. So where is this change? The disparity of rates between local authorities and the PVI sector has existed for as long as the 1140-hour policy. It is widely known that local authorities determine what proportion of early years funding the PVI sector receive and we know that local authorities get more money per child than their competitors. Parents have a right to know why a child that attends a PVI nursery is apparently worth less than a child in a local authority setting. Does she recognise that local authorities are not only service providers that they have a legal duty to ensure that every eligible child is able to access the statutory entitlement to funded ELC, including where it is not commercially viable for PVI providers, and that the funding that they get also provides funding for additional support needs, paying for the provision of equity and excellence leads, providing funding for meals in early learning settings and make provision for crisis support, including for families from Ukraine? Is there a battle to the minister? I would like to ask her how can a local authority be a banker and a competitor at the same time? That is the fundamental flaw of the 1140-hour policy. The Government has effectively created a policy that allows councils to mark their own homework and set their own rates. As we know, they are not setting sustainable rates. Disparity of rates across the country is having a huge financial impact on the PVI sector, and it flies in the face of this Government's 1140-hour policy, which states that sustainable rates should include the ability to generate a surplus. However, because of this policy, PVI nurseries cannot generate any surplus because the Government has removed the competition from the market. It is not just the inequity of rates that is led to this crisis. There has been a complete relationship breakdown between councils and nursery owners, and that is played out in council chambers where issues have been raised time and time again about the state of early years education. Parents have contacted councillors saying that they cannot access the first, second or third nursery choice. The whole point of this policy is to give parents choice, but then we have had councils refused to meet with nurseries as there has been tension over the delivery of the policy, and instead of trying to resolve the issues, this Government has sat back and let it happen. I have had countless conversations with the PVI sector about the lack of partnership working from councils, and I have mentioned earlier how they have been treated and it has led to the PVI sector feeling completely disillusioned. In July 2022, I submitted a written question about the Ipsos Murray Survey, and within your response minister you stated that the guidance is clear that the findings of the cost collection exercise are only part of the rate-setting process, and local authorities will also consider local ALC market conditions and the non-going consultation with providers. However, we know that many nurseries did not fill this survey in, and we also know that local authorities determine around 70 per cent of PVI finances, so there is little room for nurseries to grow their business. No, I am in my final minute and I have got more to say. 1140 hours is a mess. This SNP Government has reviewed the policy time and time again with no meaningful change. While it chooses not to act, childminders leave the profession and nurseries close. Parents have been promised 1140 hours of free childcare and they expect this Government to deliver it. Should the minister ignore the concerns that MSPs will raise today, this vital policy will fail. My debate tonight is called the future of childcare and it is time that this Government gets to grip the crisis that is in our childcare sector before it is too late. I will finish by welcoming the minister's contribution later on and how this Government intends to fix the mess that it has created. I now call Alistair Allen to be followed by Rose McCall up to four minutes please, Dr Allen. I thank Megan Gallacher for bringing this debate to the chamber. As I think we can all agree, the first few years of a child's life are instrumental for their development and for shaping their potential. Parents and caregivers need to be supported in creating and nurturing environment both in the home and through access to high-quality affordable childcare. The Scottish Government continues to demonstrate its commitment to achieving those aims, not least through things like deferral, the successful babybox scheme, free school meals for all primary schools and the expansion of funded early learning and childcare. The SNP Government inherited a system—wasn't mentioned earlier—that delivered just 412 hours of childcare, but now over 83,000 children in Scotland are accessing 1140 hours of high-quality funded ELC. My understanding is that that represents 87 per cent of children. That is not to be complacent, but it puts into some context a little bit of what has just gone before in this debate. It is vital that we continue to work, however, towards creating a society where all parents have a genuine choice about how their families will balance employment and caring duties, as well as benefiting families, and why their economy will reap the rewards if we do that. A recent study in Quebec found that, for every dollar invested in childcare infrastructure, the economy benefited by up to $2.80 in increased employment. That is why the Scottish Government's commitment to continuing to expand funded early learning and childcare is so vital for Scotland's long-term prosperity. It is right that we are ambitious in our vision for Scotland's childcare, and all types of providers have key roles to play. The motion for today's debate rightly highlights the damaging impact of the Covid-19 pandemic on the childcare sector, but it also cites the growth of the local authority sector and claims that that is the reason for what it calls a childcare crisis in the view of the national day nurseries association. However, the growth of the local authority sector has been instrumental in expanding access to childcare for all eligible pre-school children irrespective of their circumstances, and I think that that has to be acknowledged. The member not realised that, by the local authority having control of the sustainable rates for the PVI sector, it is creating a fundamental flaw in the policy, because the PVI sector cannot compete against the local authorities. Does the member also agree that the funding formula that is used to set the rates needs to be reviewed? I certainly do not claim that the system that we have at the moment is perfection, but I also think that we should celebrate the fact that local authorities are paying attractive rates and are running effective childcare across the country. I think that the funding agreement between the Scottish Government and COSLA does allow local authorities to pay sustainable rates at a level that enables both private and third sector services to pay at least the real living wage to staff delivering funded ELC, and that is something that should be noted in its own right. I want to conclude soon, but I want to say that the Scottish Government investment in childcare staffing numbers has risen from 33,000 to 38,000 over the last five years. However, as is the case in many sectors, recruitment and retention of staff does, I would certainly acknowledge, continue to pose a challenge, not least partly as the result of Brexit, it must be said, but I can point in my own constituency. I would acknowledge the examples of problems created by staffing shortages, for instance. I can think of a private nursery provider in my own constituency that recently had to abruptly close one of its rooms just before Christmas, and the local authority has worked hard to find spaces for all the displaced three to five-year-olds at short notice. However, parents are there, and I would accept that this is true in other places too. Do you have understandable concerns about that on-going situation, not least because there are no alternative provision for children number two in their area? I will conclude, Presiding Officer. Thank you. I now call Rose McCall to be followed by Martin Whitfield. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. When the First Minister announced the 1140-hour scheme, she was at Fallon Nursery in Stirling, and she said that all children deserve the best start in life, providing access to free, high-quality early learning and childcare, enriches children's early years and provides them with skills and confidence for starting school and beyond, and it also supports parents' ability to work, train or study. The then-Coslau Children and Young Persons spokesperson, Stephen McCabe, said that the additional hours will be transformative for families, ensuring that children have more time to play and learn while parents and carers have more opportunities to work, study and volunteer. I mention this because the ethos behind the programme was not only to provide Government-funded childcare for under-five-year-olds but to allow parents and caregivers to have time for themselves, and in most cases they would use that to return to work. I would go so far as to say for the 1140-hour scheme to work properly, it had to make sure that it met the needs of working parents and allow them to do just that. Most working parents commute to work. Fallon Nursery, the same one that the First Minister attended, opens at 8 o'clock in the morning, and if you live in the Stirling area and work in Edinburgh, you need to catch the 729 train to guarantee to get to work for nine. Coming home, it's the same, catching the 533 from Waverly, which arrives in Stirling well after six, which is the time when the nursery closes, and that's assuming that the trains are actually running or on time. A simple blend of childminder to top up and tail the nursery offer would be perfect, but that's a blend that's proving problematic. We've heard from my colleague Megan Gallacher about the issues facing the private nurseries, but childminding offer is also in sharp decline. It's under threat, too. The Scottish Government's own childminding workforce trends 2022 comes up with the following points. One, the childminding workforce has declined by 28 per cent in Scotland between 2014 and 2020. Two, the annual decreases of childminders have been accelerating since 2017. Three, the proportion of childminders over the age of 55 has steadily increased 24 per cent in 2020 when it was 11 per cent in 2010. Four, a quarter of respondents to the Scottish Child Minding Association 2020 member survey said that they were unlikely to be childminding in five years' time. Five, the process of becoming a childminder was generally viewed as time-consuming and overly bureaucratic. Six, on pay. The amount of administration required was seen as exasperating the low pay issue because of the longer hours that are required on childminders. I could go on, but I only have four minutes. Nevertheless, in itself, it's quite a damning list. What's the point of the follow-the-child funding programme when blended childcare is becoming limited at best? I would also state that the current level of funding is insufficient to work in this situation, but that's an entirely different debate. I look at the decline highlighted by both the NDNA and the Scottish Child Minders Association. Nursery staffing in crisis, childminding in crisis, the wage disparity, the on-costs, the administration and bureaucracy. We are rapidly heading towards no offer at all, unless, to be honest, that can't help but reduce the 87 per cent that's already been mentioned here today. A mix of childminder, private and public offers is imperative to fit in with the needs of the family, as well as the children that this is meant to provide for. Setting up a nuanced mix of what's available so your child becomes settled, safe and secure within their time away from their parents is fundamental. If we don't sort out this, the objective of the 1140 hours will fail. It will fail to provide for working parents, it will fail to provide for rural nurseries, it will fail to provide for child miners but, most of all, it will fail to provide for all children and that cannot be allowed to happen. I now call Martin Whitfield to be followed by Willie Rennie. Up to four minutes, please, Mr Whitfield. It's a pleasure to follow Ross McColl in this debate, and I, too, extend my thanks to Megan Gallagher for securing this very important debate. When we discuss the future of childcare, it's important to acknowledge that this is an issue that disproportionately affects women. The lack of childcare, specifically affordable and flexible childcare, stops many women from working, studying and training. It is also inherently a woman's issue in that 95 per cent of the ELC workforce are, of course, women. If we want to support women back to work, if we want to support the women into our workforce, we must address the issue of childcare. I, like many across this chamber, welcome the introduction of the 1140 hours of funded childcare. However, as Poverty Alliance have pointed out, this entitlement must be viewed as a starting point rather than an end point of reform. Can I take this opportunity to thank the minister for a meeting that we had recently regarding a number of matters regarding ELC? I want to touch on a couple of those, hopefully, to invite the minister to put on the record some of the responses that were received. First, we've already mentioned the relationship between our local authority nurseries and private sector nurseries. It is true that there is attention across many local authorities between those two services. There needs to be work done to facilitate a meeting of minds and a meeting of understanding so that it is our young people that can be properly served through this early years. I feel that the Scottish Government can make a more positive contribution to facilitating those discussions. One of the areas that we talked about—please see it. I thank Martin Wipoo for taking him into intervention. The Scottish Government has worked very closely with COSLA because we were not able to deliver the 1140 roll-out without the work with COSLA and the PVI sector. What would he suggest that the Scottish Government do over and above what we have done already? I am very grateful. It is to the credit of the Scottish Government. Indeed, COSLA's work has gone on between the two over the roll-out of this, but it is also about that relationship with the private sector, many of whom rightly feel that they are excluded from committees, work parties and, indeed, are excluded sometimes in contributing to the debate about early years. How can that better be achieved? The simple answer I think is to invite them into the circle, to be at the table when decisions are considered and made. I was going to go on to comment another specific area that the Minister may find useful, which is the challenge that private sector—in particular, when I talk about private sector, I am talking about parents groups and charity groups in gaining access to local authority properties, particularly primary schools, to provide that wraparound care. There seems to be great challenges about getting access to those buildings, where indeed some of our early years' children are, during the day anyway, to be able to stay later into the evening to counter the travel challenges that we have already heard of. I realise that time is short, but I wonder whether the Minister would be able to also comment about constituents' concerns that have been raised with me with regard to catchment areas, and the challenge both in the understanding of the fact that there isn't a catchment area for the purpose of nursery, but there is for P1. Indeed, the reality of that situation and whether it is something that the Government is looking at, is that parents fail to understand why they cannot go to the nursery attached to the primary school that their child will go to. That, in turn, causes transition problems, because sometimes the nurseries that are being relied on in the private sector are too far away to hand on. In conclusion, 90 per cent of learned parents are women. As long as we fail to fix the issues of earlier provision, we are failing women up and down the country. Women who would can be and should be an invaluable asset are a huge loss to our economy, but we are also failing our young people at the most vulnerable time when they need the support, as we have heard, to transition into a successful education. The future of childcare needs to remain a priority for this Parliament, and we cannot assume that the 1140 hours has fixed it. We must not forget that it is women and children who sit at the centre of this debate. I am grateful, Deputy Presiding Officer. Thank you, Mr Whitfield. I now call Willie Rennie to be followed by Brian Whittle. I thank Megan Gallacher for bringing forward this debate. I hope that we managed to persuade the minister that, at least she accepts that there is an issue here. I think that the 1140 hours expansion is a great thing. I am delighted to see that it has worked in many areas relatively smoothly. It has given some flexibility, but it has certainly increased the hours. It is good. It is the best start in life for young people. We know that it can transform their opportunities. It really sets them on a good course for life. It also gives parents the opportunity to get back to work. I all too well remember the real challenges of juggling the children from childminders into the nursery, so having the fully comprehensive wraparound support is important. I want to give credit to the Government for moving forward in the 1140 hours. There is a real problem with the disparity of pay levels between the private and voluntary sector and the public sector. It is built in. We have a whole host of examples of people who are doing exactly the same job but are paying dramatically different rates of pay. In Falkirk, a local authority head of centre is paid only 1 per cent more than their private nursery manager. In Glasgow, a deputy head of nursery is paid 87 per cent more than the equivalent in the private sector. North Lanarkshire is exactly the same. I understand that the responsibilities are different. That is the minister's point, but they are not that different. The huge pay differentials are massive. It is no wonder, therefore, that we have quite a significant movement of staff away from the private sector, sometimes to other jobs altogether, not in council nurseries. However, the pay rates are just not sufficient. We must recognise that the childcare industry is a mixed economy and that employers in the private sector and the third sector make business decisions. They are responsible for those business decisions. Public funding only accounts for between 33 and 45 per cent of the overall income of private childcare services. I accept that point. In the past, cross-subsidy was acceptable because the proportion of the state that was contributing to those nurseries business was relatively small. Now it is huge. There is a debate about how much the state is contributing towards those private nurseries. Some of them say that it is 55 per cent, but we can have a discussion about that. However, it has certainly increased. The ability to cross-subsidise is just not there to the same extent as it used to be. Why should private clients and parents pay for the inability of the state to pay for the staff properly that they are in the public sector? I do not think that there should be the cross-subsidy to that extent. It is to put all the pressure on the private clients that is unacceptable. We need to fix that. I understand that Matthew Sweeney revealed it all to the education committee back in May. He said that we are being told by the Scottish Government that the funding that has been given to us is to allow private and voluntary partners, providers, to pay the real living wage. At the same time, funding for local authorities must be able to meet the nationally set rates through collective bargaining for our workforce. In a quote, that encapsulates the problem. The Government has accepted that it is built into the system. It is baked in that in private nurseries we pay up to the national living wage, while council nurseries have nationally negotiated rates of pay. That is the problem. We are building it in. I understand how it has happened, because that is private nurseries. Primarily, we are getting private income before, so they were set in their own parades. Now that the Government is paying the majority, I would argue, of those private nurseries' income, it is building in that disparity. No wonder, therefore, that we have an exodus of staff from the private sector. I understand how we got there, but the minister has got to at least accept that we have a problem when we need to try to fix it. We cannot do it overnight. I accept that, because it is a massive amount of money that we require, but we need to have a plan, at least, to close that gap to stop the exodus. I also thank all the PVI sector nurseries for their continued updates and briefs on the roll-out of the 140 hours of childcare. Usually, I look forward to speaking in these debates, but I have to say, Deputy Presiding Officer, that this is hardly the first time we have had to bring the crisis in the PVI sector to this chamber. I find myself frustrated and bewildered that, after several years of debating this issue, we are still here, bringing the same fears and concerns to the industry, to the Scottish Government. It is strange, because we all support the premise of the 140 hours of free childcare and the opportunities that that can bring in so many ways. That is not a debate about policy. That is the debate on the roll-out and the implementation of that policy. That debate is about the Scottish Government's continued refusal to accept that there is a serious issue with the imbalance between the public nurseries and the PVI sector. You cannot hide from those facts any more. I accept that the pandemic has been a major inhibitor to the roll-out of free childcare, and I imagine that we all agree on that. However, it should have given the Scottish Government time to consider the issues that were previously raised on behalf of the sector in this chamber on many occasions from those benches and across the chamber. Specifically, the huge disparity that Willie Rennie talked about across the country of council relationships and the treatment of private nursery care, which in many cases was far from ideal. In speaking with a number of the private nurseries' owners, it is clear that there is a serious concern as to their treatment and the sustainability in the scheme, and that those issues remain. I know that the minister will have examples through the attitude and approach of local councils that it is collaborative and reflects the way in which the Scottish Government has set out its delivery plan, but there seems to have been little progress in ensuring that the picture across the country is uniform. I listen to stories of local authorities who have openly stated that they do not believe in private nursery childcare and have the intention of bringing all childcare in-house, with no intention of partnering with private childcare nurseries. What Mr Whittle is saying or alleging here is very concerning. If he has evidence of this, I would be more than happy to receive correspondence from him on the matter. I thank the minister for intervention. I say to the minister that those concerns were raised with the previous minister, and I will forward you on those particular cases. That still pervades, unfortunately, across certain council areas. As I said, those have no intention of partnering with private childcare nurseries. Nurseries have delivered decades of top-quality care who have become an integral part of their communities. Every nursery representative highlighted the issue of local authorities recruiting directly from the partnership nurseries into local authority nurseries. They are losing so many highly trained qualified staff that the care inspectorate are downgrading them because of an increasing turnover of staff. We have local authorities able to pay a higher rate for apprentices than the partnership nurseries can for qualified staff, yet local authorities are asking the partnership nurseries to train their apprentices. We have a ludicrous situation in which apprentices are being paid more than those who are training them. That is not a partnership. There are huge discrepancies between what the minister has asked local authorities to deliver and what some of them are delivering. Local authorities are consulting and treating partnership nurseries as a crucial part of the scaling up of childcare in Scotland. However, as I have tried to highlight today, there are a significant number who are treating them as anything but partners to the point where many are under threat. The fact that there are, in many cases, local authorities are in essence setting themselves up in competition with the partnership nurseries according to those partnerships. For the minister to deliver this crucial policy, she will need all of those partnership nurseries. The truth is that she is in danger of losing them in all their years of experience in dedicated care in her communities. Once they are lost, it will be next impossible to get them back again, Deputy Presiding Officer. I would like to thank Megan Gallacher for bringing this business in the chamber. In November, I met Graham McAllister, CEO for the Scottish Child Minding Association, who raised some very important issues surrounding the future and welfare of childminders in Scotland. The childmind workforce in Scotland has now declined by 30 per cent, and with that, the loss of over 10,000 childmilding places for families. As places drop and the cost of childcare rise, many families find themselves either unable to afford childcare or unable to find it. We cannot allow this to continue. There is currently not enough support offered to the childminding workforce in Scotland, and the sector is under pressure with a lack of trained professionals available to fill much needed positions. Childminding is a vital and valuable industry, but the childmilding workforce requires significant support to carry it through this decline. Many of the workforce are reporting that delivering the funded early learning and childcare hours has caused a significant increase in paperwork. This has resulted in many childminders undertaking an additional five-plus hours of unpaid paperwork each week, resulting in a loss of focus on the child. As a result, childminders who were previously providing funded childcare hours are chasing to do so because of an unsustainable amount of paperwork. Funded childcare hours must continue, but the Scottish Government needs to ensure they are supporting the workforce to do so. What is even more alarming is that 60% of those surveyed believed they would have to reduce the heating setting this winter when children are present in their homes. It is shocking that some are considering switching off their heating when their family are present to be able to heat their sitting when it is open for their childminding business during the day. I particularly want my colleagues to be aware that only 13% of childminders believe they can pay themselves the living wage with almost all participants reporting that they work extra hours unpaid every week. This is a deeply concerning statistic. The impact of the COVID-19 pandemic and the cost of living crisis has put this vital industry at risk. It is time for the Scottish Government to recognise the quick pressure facing the childminding workforce in Scotland. Underpaying and overworking is never going to allow this integral sector to flourish. The Scottish Government must now take measure to encourage and support the much-needed recruitment of childminders and demonstrate that it values Scotland's children and the dedicated worker who care for them daily. I now call Fools McGregor, who will be the last speaker before I ask the minister to respond. Thank you for allowing me to speak. It wasn't initially my intention. I want to thank you for making Gaelica as well for bringing the debate to the chamber. I might not take up a whole four minutes. I'm sure that you'll be glad to hear, but the minister will know that I've had a bit of input in this area as well. I've been contacted by PVI sector nurseries in my own co-bridge and creasing constituency, some I think who have also reached out to McGregor. I think that they have expressed some concerns about the current situation and the hours, and I know that some of those, as have been expressed by McGregor, do relate to pay, but we've had concerns, as we've talked about in the earlier debates around the cost of living crisis. I think that all of that is certainly coming together. One of the private nurseries that I'll mention in co-bridge is Curtin Home Nursery, and I'll declare an interest. My daughter goes there one day a week, an absolutely fantastic nursery. I'm sure that they would love to have the minister out for a visit to the forest school. If she was inclined at any point, I have done that visit as well as having the weeb on there. It's really good, as is part of the nursery in my constituency. It's a really, really good work going on there. I have to say that I do agree with what other speakers have said today. I think that we are in a wee bit of a difficult position if workers in those nurseries are getting paid significantly less than those in the local authority sectors, because they are doing a fantastic job. They really are. I know that it's not the case across the board, as Billy Rennie said, but it does seem to be the case in North Lanarkshire. Don't get me wrong, in North Lanarkshire there's, and I'm sure that I'm making Gallic a Roe Greed, there's some absolutely excellent local authority nurseries. The Stepping Stones, for example, and also the Tollbury's Sclerari nursery, where my middle child went in. It's a Gallic nursery, absolutely fantastic. I do think that, overall, 1140 hours is very much a major success, but what it feels like to me when I've been dealing with the private nurseries who have come to me for a bit of support, and I think they've all more or less all the ones in my constituency have approached me at one time or another, either collectively or individually, is that it feels as if there's a bit of a stand off there just now. The local authority nurseries are really moving forward with PACE, they've been able to pay their staff really, really good wages, something that's Scotland, we can be proud of, I'm sure the minister is really proud of that, but the system which is in place is meaning that the PVI sector is falling behind, staff are leaving, as we've heard already, and I wonder if there's some sort of way we can have both, and we can try and get to that. So, as I said, I hadn't actually prepared a speech as such, but I just decided to speak during the debate, so I really just wanted to end with a couple of asks, one for the member, Megan Gallacher, I know that she'll be up for this, but before the legal dispute, or whatever you want to call it, in North Lancer happened, there was going to be a meeting between MSPs of all parties and the private nursery sector, and I know that the lead, if you like, Ms Legget did contact us to say, because if a letter they'd received from the local authority, pardon me, they were no longer able to have that meeting, so I wonder if, when the time is right in any precedence, whatever they may be, are elapsed. We could have that meeting, and I see Megan nodding to that, and I'd be happy to do that as well on a cross-party basis, locally. Also, if the minister, I wonder, just as Willie Rennie and others have asked, if she can take another look at this, I think that the 1140 hours is an excellent policy, it's working really well, but there is something that I'm picking up as a constituency MSP that's not going completely right with the PVI sector. I wonder if she can look at that on a national basis, or whether it's maybe sporadically across the country and see if there is solutions to it. I heard the funding formula. It might be one way to look at a review on that, I'm not sure, but I just would ask the minister and summon up if she would consider that. I now call on Minister Clay Hockey to respond to the debate up to seven minutes, please minister. Thank you very much, Presiding Officer, and this has been an important debate today, and I think that it's critical that we put on record the significant collective achievement of delivering 1140, and thank our partners in local government, the private third and child mending sectors again for all their hard work in making such a success of the expansion so far. I'm particularly proud that this offer is available to all eligible children, regardless of their parents' working status, meaning that Scotland has the most generous childcare offer in the UK today, and I will continue to make the case that children's needs must always come first. It's testament to the efforts of everyone in this sector that we now have near universal uptake among three and four-year-olds, 99 per cent in the latest public statistics. It's also good news that the number of two-year-olds registering for funded ELC is at the highest level, and I'm pleased that we have secured a legal gateway with the United Kingdom Government, which finally means that local authorities in Scotland will be able to access the information that they need to contact eligible households later this year. That will make a real difference to levels of uptake, and my officials are working closely with councils to support them to reach as many families as possible. I'm also delighted to read the positive experiences that families are having with funded ELC. Quality and flexibility are at the heart of our 1140 offer, and survey results published in December show that we are delivering for families. 97 per cent of parents are satisfied with the quality of the funders' children access and over 88 per cent of parents are satisfied that they have the flexibility to use their funders in a way that works for them. There has been discussion today about rates paid to providers, and I want to reiterate that throughout the 1140 expansion we have used the significant public investment that we have made in funded ELC—almost £1 billion in 2023-24—to seek to support and improve conditions across the private voluntary and child-minding workforce that delivers the vital service. We all agree in the principle of 1140. I think that that is something that is universally accepted among all political parties, but I do need to ask, will you agree to fix the rate system for the PVI sector today? That is a huge ask, and it would make a huge difference to the PVI sector as we continue to roll out 1140 hours. I hear what the member is saying, but I don't accept the premise that ELC is failing in the way that she describes or that it is in crisis. Scotland is the only part of the UK to have made a commitment to paying staff the real living wage for the delivery of funded ELC, and we have made real progress there. Before the expansion, approximately 80 per cent of staff delivering funded ELC in the private and third sectors were paid less than the living wage. In contrast, in 2021, health check indicated that 88 per cent of private providers intended to pay the real living wage to all their staff from August 2021. Our investment in sustainable rates is also critical to enabling employers to pay the real living wage to professionals delivering funded ELC and to ensuring the quality and sustainability of provision. As a result of the ELC expansion, average rates paid to providers to deliver funded ELC to three to four-year-olds have increased by 57 per cent since 2017. The average rate paid for three to four-year-olds by Scottish local authorities is the highest in the UK in 2023-24 at £5.77 per hour compared to £5 per hour in Wales and £5.15 in England. I accept that. The rates in Scotland are higher than in England, I accept that. I accept that the real living wage is in advance on what was being done before, but the disparity is causing a problem. I hope that the minister, and I have heard her talking about this before in the committee, will accept that that disparity is causing a problem. We are having nurseries closing and rooms closing, and we need the PVI sector for the flexibility that parents are desperately needing. I hope that the minister—I understand all the arguments that she is making—has to accept that there is a problem. I thank Willie Rennie for his intervention. That is something that we did debate in committee. I cannot remember if, at the time when he had raised this issue, if I referenced the ELC census, the most recent one that was published in December, and there, when he talked about a reduction of services providing funded ELC, there was a 1 per cent reduction in services providing ELC, so not the closure or mass closure that some may herald. I am not accusing Mr Rennie of that. I appreciate that the conditions are challenging for providers, particularly as a result of the pandemic and the cost crisis. That is why we are continuing the nursery rates relief scheme, providing 100 per cent relief on non-domestic rates to eligible day nurseries beyond 30 June this year. It is worth noting that the temporary nursery discount on rates in England ended on 1 April last year. We are also developing a programme tailored support to enable childcare providers to access specialist advice on strengthening and diversifying their businesses. I would like to take a moment to recognise the unique and invaluable role that childminders played that Mr Chowdry was speaking about in delivering high-quality funded ELC. Although recent years have been challenging for childminders, we continue to work closely with our partners, including the Scottish Child Minding Association, to increase the number of childminders in Scotland through the implementation of our commitment to childminding report. The number of childminders in Scotland has fallen from 6,752 in 2012 to 4,829 in 2021. Does the member accept that, should childminders continue to decline in this way, there will not be a childminding sector left? I thank the member for her intervention, and I was about to come on to the work that we are actually doing to promote childminding and to increase recruitment to childminding. Yes, it is an absolute fact, to absolutely accept that, that there has been a drop in the number of childminders in Scotland. That is replicated across the UK. It is not unique to Scotland. What we are doing is working with the Child Minding Association. That work includes supporting the delivery of targeted recruitment models, such as the innovative Scottish rural childminding partnership, which aims to recruit and train 100 new childminders in remote and rural areas. Indeed, we are funding an extension of the recruitment pilot into urban areas. We have also recently committed to funding a new pilot to provide targeted support to childminders to help them to streamline the administrative burdens associated with their practice. I can respond to a point that Mr Whipfield made about engagement with the sector. In fact, tomorrow, the childcare sector working group will meet representatives from across the local authority and Scottish Child Minding Association. We are establishing a new national childcare providers forum, which will be a space for strategic policy discussion. We are keen to have as wide a representation of the sector as possible there. We are also funding the Scottish childcare sector representation and sustainability fund up to £500,000 over the next two years to support eligible childcare sector representative bodies to deliver their representative functions, because that is key. We need to hear their voice and strengthen their long-term sustainability. Those are really strong foundations for us to build on. I look forward to continuing to work closely with COSLA and our partners in the sector to deliver the new legislation on deferals from August and other priorities, including continuing to deliver progress on sustainable rates and the uptake of the two-year-old offer. I am also looking forward to continuing our work on building a new system of school-age childcare and developing the evidence around expanding ELC for one and two-year-olds, delivering on our ambitious commitment for Scotland's children and families. That concludes the debate. I close this meeting.