The camera is on and all of those who are here know we're on the evil glass eye and I'm going to call the meeting together to order at two minutes after five and I am happy to welcome Mike Smith and Sarah Squirrel here to discuss the Middlesex Therapeutic Care Facility and do we have any amendments to the agenda? We are ready to go. Because we already amended it once, right? So you're on, welcome. We'll just we'll just quick we know who you are. Thank you. We'll quickly go around the table and introduce us. No, Waterbury, close but not here. We're Waterbury. Waterbury Center Guptill Road right across from the Murray Hill Christmas tree farm. Our house is kind of just just across the street there. Yeah, it's nice. We like it. Mary just get her. Yeah, fill that up. I'll put her in the crow on the treasure. Peter Hood. Yeah. Emily Sharp. Okay, great. So welcome. Thank you for having us. We're delighted to see you. Well, we're delighted. We read everything in the papers about what's what's happening and what's not happening over here. We really appreciate that you took the time to come and meet with us. I mean, as as we have said, there have been very few issues with regard to this facility over here. A couple of very minor ones over the years, basically no issues, but understanding what the plans are, understanding what the timeline is, is helpful for us because our residents are asking us, Hey, wasn't that place supposed to be closed right four years ago and then three years ago? And so that's it. That's it. So let me first of all thank you, Sarah, Commissioner Squirrel and I are very, very happy to be here today. I really, it's been, I got the letter in November and I said, I'm ready to go and I'm sorry it's taken this long. We figured we'd figured we'd strike on the iron spot before we got to come. So I do want to spend some time because Sarah has an update on on what's going on and there's a lot that's been going on with this facility. So I'll turn it over to Sarah. And if Sarah, if you spend some time just speaking to what the plans are and sort of the timeline of the plans, that would be great. Absolutely. Yeah. So Sarah, just for the record, you're in charge of your department of the facility at this point. Yes. The mental health. Yep. The middle sex therapeutic community residents is licensed as a community residence and is fully under the purview of the commissioner of mental health. But I thought you had people who had criminal matters that are sometimes there. So we have individuals who may come into the mental health system of care through the criminal justice system who have significant mental health needs. So let me share a little bit of an update in terms of where we are in the facility. Certainly want to thank you as select board members for your ongoing patience and support. Certainly having this facility stood up post hurricane Irene. That was a moment of crisis for our communities and the therapeutic community residents has been essential in providing step down level of care for vulnerable Vermonters. The good news is that we sit here tonight with a plan with a budget to move forward to the permanent facility for the current temporary facility.  We have been working very hard to forge a path forward with the full support of the administration to replace that with a facility that will increase its capacity and increase its clinical capability as well. When you say replace it, you mean replace it there or replace it somewhere? No. She's going to tell us. So the good news is this is the top priority of the administration. It's one of the top capital priority projects for the agency of human services. We have received funding approval from the legislature to replace the current middle sex therapeutic community residents with a 16 bed facility located in a different location. So we have that approval has gone through with the current capital bill. We work with the BGS, which is another department within state government that help buildings, grounds and services and essentially the capital budget is something they manage. So they've been in the process of finding an ideal site and location for the facility. There are a few things that we've taken into consideration as we look for an ideal site. And currently we have landed on a proposed location, which we did make public on Friday in the legislature, where our ideal location for the replacement is in Essex at the current Woodside facility. That is a state-owned property that is slated to close. It creates a lot of economies for us as a state in terms of expediting the planning for the replacement. It saves us time. It's a state-owned property. It saves us money because we don't have to purchase a property. It saves us on Act 250 permitting and some of those pieces, as you all know, that become tricky from a facility standpoint. So that is our recommendation right now in the legislature that we move forward with the replacement of Middlesex at the current Woodside facility. In terms of the timeline, it's really important to me that we're really transparent and honest about the timeline and what we're looking at. We do have funding allocated. We have already hired architects. We've already gone out for RFP in terms of land bids. At this point we are looking at about a three-year construction process. And that is an expedited process. Again, by moving forward with the Woodside site, that does gain us a lot in terms of time and money. But I think as of right now, the projected construction, I guess, final stages, it would be completed in FY23 is what we're looking at now. So that is the plan as of now in terms of what Middlesex is designed to be and the people it's designed to serve in terms of the system of care. This is still and will remain step down residential capacity. So for those individuals who still present with significant acuity and safety needs, they remain in our acute inpatient system of care, which would be the Vermont Psychiatric Care Hospital, number one. We have other level one beds across the state at Rutland Regional Medical Center and the Brattle Brewer Retreat. This really is for those individuals who have demonstrated a lot of progress in their treatment and are stepping down to a more residential level of care, but also still have some safety needs, hence the security of the Middlesex facility. So that's the plan right now. I feel I'm somewhat new in my role at the Commissioner of Mental Health for the past year and was wondering also if it might be useful and helpful that I continue to update the select board on a regular basis in terms of how things are progressing. Certainly we've got our eye on this ball given that it's such a big priority for us, because not only are we moving it to a more, I guess, non-temporary FEMA trailers, a nice trauma-informed facility, we're also expanding its capacity. It's going to be doubling in size essentially. So this is an urgent priority for us as a department. So as much as you're anxious to move forward with this, we're equally anxious to move forward with this. And I'd be happy every three to six months to figure out some way to communicate so that you know what's happening. If there's any significant barriers that we're finding that are popping up along the way, I want to make sure that you're very informed. Do you think that the facility, as it is right now in Middlesex, can weather another three years? I'm not sure what these things are made of. I know that there was some time constraint or some worry about how long they'd actually be. That is such a great question, and that was one of my first questions for Commissioner Cole, who leads at BGS. And he said while those FEMA trailers are designed to be temporary, they do have a 20 to 25-year lifespan, and BGS has assured us that they can maintain that facility safely over the next three years while we build this kind of ideal state-of-the-art therapeutic residence. You're not renovating Woodside. You're good to start with a new facility. We will be leveling it to the ground. Tearing it down? There's no use for it? Currently, it was designed to be a juvenile detention center. Well, I know, you may put it in when I served in the legislature. And when we think about trauma-informed spaces for individuals who are experiencing acute mental health issues, that kind of environment and setting is not conducive to treatment. It doesn't work. It's not conducive to treatment, so we would be looking to level that and rebuild on the existing footprint. So what are the plans after you move for that building? Secretary, Mr. Secretary? For the middle sex, I think it would be just to tear down and level field. Well, I mean, but are you willing to commit to that? Because I know that when we had other buildings and grounds, people in one of the people whose retirees said that they were going to convert the use to something else. I haven't heard of anything else that we're doing. I'll check, but I haven't heard of anything else that we're doing. I go through with that the state police wanted to move in there. I just scuttle but around the time. I did see that from some old, we were doing, kind of looking back at the history of notice and communication. I did notice that at one time. We can absolutely follow up on the commission. Let's follow up on that. Yeah, but I mean, one of the people who came in here said, oh, no, we're going to raise the issue. We're going to raise the issue for something else. Yeah, let me check on that before I, we don't have any plans for it, but that doesn't mean what BTS is doing. So let me just check on that to make sure, and on the check-in, we'll make sure that we keep you apprised of that. So currently, though, the state has yet to miss as much as there's been a lot of talk. The state has not made the decision to close down Woodside, correct? That's correct. I mean, that decision is really... That's one hurdle yet to jump over. The administration has made the decision to close down Woodside. The legislature now has to agree to close down Woodside. It is in all the budget material. Now, before the legislature, we shall see how this is going to transpire over the next two months. Right. The other piece I would add to your good question, because I'm also thinking about risk all the time as well, and what could go wrong? We have a secondary site that's been identified that would be, I guess, Plan B, if you will, which is in the Chittenden County area. Just as you're kind of thinking about that process planning out of the decision-making place. Well, I just wondered, because I haven't seen, and maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen a plan to take care of those residents who are on Woodside now. Yeah. There is an RFP out right now to take care of three to five beds. We're estimating that we're going to need three to five secure beds as we move forward. There's the RFP. We're also looking at various other options as we move forward. That plan should be developing within the next few weeks. Yeah. Yeah. The census at Woodside has decreased significantly over the years. So currently, Commissioner Schatz has been watching those trends very carefully. There was a point where they actually had no one at Woodside recently, which is actually good news when you think about what it is. It is the good news as long as those kids are in appropriate placement. Absolutely. But for those three to five youth, who may require a more secure setting, it is essential that we have a good solid plan for them. Well, that sounds great as long as the pieces of the puzzle all come together. You know, I can't promise, but I like the direction we're headed here. I think it makes sense, and I think it's a doable plan as we move forward. Okay. I promise what you've told us will come to pass. Well, I'm optimistic that what I told you will come to pass. If there's any changes, we'll come to you and talk to you about any changes. What about in the meantime, having people who are charged criminally and putting them in middle sex? Because that is a problem we've had. Yeah. I mean, as you know, I can't confirm or deny anyone who's under the care and custody of the commissioner of mental health. We certainly do have people coming into our system of care through the criminal justice system. That's part of what I'm responsible for. I have people under my care and custody who have also criminal justice interaction. What I can say is that they would never step down from acute hospital level of care until their acute mental illness and safety needs at that level are addressed at the point that we are considering transition to a lower level of care. It's because they've demonstrated certain progress in their treatment goals. So that's what I can say. But what happens when we find out from people who call us, because it's written up in the Times-Argus that a person who killed his wife is down in middle sex? Again, I can't speak specifically to individuals. I certainly understand the position it puts you in and for that community partners. You've had a few of those folks registered to vote. Have concerns.  Unfortunately, we are a health care provider. I mean, I understand that. But without naming names, could you at least tell us? Because we're going to hear it through the grapevine. Yeah. So the Department of Mental Health is a health care provider. We have to follow protected health information. So we can't disclose information about individuals because essentially they're receiving health care treatment. At the same time, we understand the position that you're in as a community and can only provide the assurances in terms of what we're monitoring in terms of care and treatment and ensuring that if they are stepping down to a lower level of care, that it's appropriate for them and that we are evaluating that. How about the Secretary? Could he tell us? Without naming names just to tell us there's a dangerous person. No, I'm under the same rules that the Commissioner of Mental Health is. Yeah. I think I mean, the reality is we've got what we got. It wasn't what we thought we were getting way back when we got it, but it is what it is. And I will say, and I don't think anybody here will disagree. We really haven't had any issues or problems, but neither do we want any. Right. And we're trying to move on as quickly as possible. Absolutely. Yeah, and hopefully the being adjacent to the police barracks, some of those elements provide some sense of safety and security as well for community members. If we only knew that there were state policemen there, sometimes that's the safety of your facility. We don't need to go into that. But I mean that sincerely. I mean, we were very concerned of the initial faces of this, and the neighbors were very concerned, and the state spent a fair amount of money on fences and trees and other things. And it's basically worked. So it's too bad it's had to go on for so long. Yes, agreed. We agree with you on that. Well, keeping in touch would be a great thing. As much as we enjoy seeing people in person, it gets kind of lonely here sometimes. You know, a letter or an email to us through Sarah would be a great update. And then if we have any questions, we can get back to you. Yeah, and given how things are moving through the legislature right now, I'd say probably the next two months, an update on progress. Does that work? Well, needless to say, any time there's something in the paper or we're reading that. We're trying to pay attention. But yes, that would be helpful. I mean, especially if it's either incorrect information or incomplete information which comes out in the press, it would be great to hear, well, that really isn't 100% true. It's really this side or the other. So I wonder if you can get back to us with a kind of overview on next plans for the facility after mental health moves out. Well, I would say we just need to have a conversation with Commissioner Cole. So probably I would say next week, we could get back to you on that. Perfect. Does that work? That works really well. Great. Okay. Thank you. Rick, thank you very much for coming. Thank you for mentioning us, world. Great to see you. Thank you. Nice to see you as well. Thank you. So Jerry Smith, thank you for been doing my job. Oh, thank you. I think you must have had a meeting with them earlier. Sorry that it's so tight in here. Sarah, thank you for the water. Thank you all. We'll see you later. Bye, see you later. Thank you. Bye-bye. Good night, guys. Thank you. Oh, yeah. That's a great idea. What? Move the town office up there into the view material. They probably, Sarah probably would like that because it would be so cold in there. Well, I don't know. I wouldn't say FEMA trailers are noted for there. I know. Somebody would picture them as being like storage units. Yeah. Yeah, one step up. One step up. And actually having had the opportunity to take the tour in there before it opened, and also when we did that voter registration not too long ago. It looks way worse on the outside than it is on the inside. You know who is the person who told us they were going to reuse it? Is the one who retired? He's Jimmy Hurley's husband. They're not going to reuse that. That thing is going to be done by me. I mean, if they reuse it. I just tell you, that's what he said. I know. I can't see the state police. I don't know. That was just... The state police are just going to live there temporarily when they redid their barracks. But my understanding is the state police are gone. They're going out of there. Oh, they are? Yeah, what I heard. They're going out of there? Where are they going? Because they can't recruit them? No, they just don't want to have all these little branch Yeah, maybe they're going down to Waterbury because it wasn't Waterbury. Didn't they have some other state police? This territory is so huge. You know, they're all the way up there in cabinet. And that building, that building, a former middle sex building, we could take that over and turn that into a folks office. Senator Bloch, very nice. That was the school for a while. Yeah, it was the school. That's what was built up. Yeah, that is a decent building. The power force? Yeah. The state is so... So how long does the work? What's the background of the commissioner's girl? She seems really confident. She's very confident. She worked for, I think, building Bright Futures. I forget. They're like a state program for, not state funded, I don't think, but you know, for helping kids in zero to five, you know, like that, like the whole day cares and education. So she can have a background, I don't know? I don't know, Mary. I just know that she was appointed. I don't know if her background is in it. Of course, I remember Commissioner Walton. Probably, it is. Probably, I'll let you work out for her, yeah. He was the commissioner of mental health, and I don't think he... Okay, Madam Treasurer. Okay. Well, the first thing I wanted to talk about was the... We had talked about it a while back when the Listers presented their budget about applying this penalty if H.S. 122 forms are not filed on time. And I think it might be a good idea if this is something you are going to consider, that you make the decision now, and it is something that could be talked about during town meeting, because it's certainly going to be, you know, important and... So, the last time we discussed this, which wasn't too long ago, you were saying that the state had a plan to correct this, or they were trying to figure out a plan to correct this problem? No. No? No, never. This is... Made that up? Huh, yeah. No. Yeah, I don't know what you're referring to. There was something that the state tax department was... Yeah, it's not something you... Was it something you may have brought up that the state department... The H.S. 122 thing? Yeah. The word from the department, from the property valuation review division, is that they are trying to make inroads with the compliance division, which is like right-hand, left-hand activity within the department of tax. Because the H.S. 122 is filed under their personal and income side, so the PVR folks don't have access to it, so they're totally walled off from each other. So, PVNRs who uses the information, obviously to work with us as listers, and I really do not want to be on camera. I'm happy to have my voice on, but I appreciate you not having me on camera. Thank you. Amy Whitehorn. I'm one of the listers. Anyway, so my conversation that I have with the current woman who's overseeing PVNR, Joe Renwick, is that they are doing their best to try and develop a relationship within the department of tax, so that they can actually be working more closely with compliance on the filing of these forms. PVNR is completely powerless. Yet they're the ones who work with us with the forms. And there's no penalty on the state side for not filing, right? Not filing, right. How many people do it in our town, do you think? We actually, I won't name any names, but we have some pretty noteworthy folks in town who do it on purpose. You would be surprised to find out have not filed. Now, whether they did not file intentionally or accidentally, we make no judgment. So you're able to get that information. We do have that information. You can report them. Okay. So how many, but how many do you think? I just want to clarify something. If you, if you, if the state learns that somebody is at homestead and they are filing as non-residential, can't the state impose it? Isn't it like triple the tax or something? So in, so our town theoretically, you all know this. Our town is in a situation where our, our resident is paying more than our non-resident. Right. And so the way the system is set up is technically to penalize people who want to file as a resident because most towns, the resident rate is lower. So because we're on the other side of the coin, we're in a bit of a catch-22. There is no penalty for not filing the form. Again, that's because PBR and compliance aren't working together and there's nothing in the regs. The only person who can actually go after somebody is literally the commissioner, the department of taxes, tax commissioner. And I still, I understand that there's still an interim commissioner. So the conversation I had, I heard they're not doing that right now. They're not going after anybody. And PBR is going to work really hard to try and get information out of the public about the importance of filing the HS122 because it is a requirement. So it's one of those laws that we have on the books. It's a requirement for every Vermont resident to file the form. But there's no penalty for not filing, right? So we can't be the only town that has this problem. No, we're not. But how many towns do you think have it? Lots. I won't even gander a guess. Okay, so why can't we just bring it up and try and get a legislative amendment and put it in the miscellaneous package? Yeah, can I just see that for a second? I, if you wanted to do that, good. That's not, that's not... Well, I mean, that's what Ken Jessup could do.  I mean, has that been something that the town clerks have brought up? What the town clerks do is that the select boards, if their homestead rate is higher, you have up to an 8% penalty you can impose on late filers, not non-filers. Again, that's a separate issue. No, but I mean, like you know who doesn't file it. You and Amy. So, and you know how many towns have this problem, right? So have the town clerks not taken a position saying... Well, it's not a state, it's not a state issue. It's a town issue. I mean, it's a, it's a, it's not a town issue. It's a state issue, except I do believe we get a little bit screwed because we still have to pay a certain amount for education. If you had a statute saying that you get a penalty the other way around, then all the town clerks and enlisters would have to do is forward it to the state and the state imposes the penalty. If the laws change, so it applies whether it's non-residential to residential or residential, none. In other words, just make it, just make it, so it applies both ways. And Mary, that's sort of how it looks like it should work right now, but it doesn't. So... But I'm saying, why can't we ask our legislators to fix it? It seems to me it's a pretty simple thing. You could, unless you've got a really clear cut solution that you could give somebody that they could cookie cut or cut and stamp. I wouldn't want to touch it with a barge pole right now. I know there's a lot of people who are very frustrated by the process. So, and we have made our position clear as listers because we were, we're for the onus of... Is Calis? Making sure everybody's... Is Calis one of those towns? I don't know. I have to look at the list. East one failure? Well, we just had a meeting of the town clerks a couple of weeks ago upstairs, and I just did a formal poll. And a lot of the towns that have higher homestead rates, where you can impose up to an 8% penalty. Again, this is just for late filers, not for long non-filers. Right. Is... A non-filer is a late filer. No, no, that's the problem. That's the problem. That's the problem. That's the whole problem. That's the whole problem. I just want to... So basically penalizing people who are late in filing their homes to declarations at 8%. So the law has changed as of January 1st to the 2020 that I'm reading here. Which part? Of 32 BSI 5410, Declaration of Homestead. Does it speak to late or non-filers? Okay. So I just want to go through this. Do you guys mind? So if the property identified in a declaration under subsection B, which is the homestead, is not the taxpayer's homestead, or if the owner of the homestead fails to file a... Fails to declare a homestead as required into the section, the commissioner shall notify the municipality. And the municipality shall issue a corrected tax bill. Has that ever been our experience? So the question is... So this might be something that's getting down the path of essentially the commissioner being able to assist the towns in making good on what the problem is. And this change in the law is now one month old. So it hasn't been really affected because we have not issued any tax bills. So we've never gone through this. So we don't know either that solves the problem? Actually what has been happening is that we list our report to the state. People who we believe to be residents, and again we have some relatively high profile folks here in town who did not file HS-122s, who probably all of us at this table would go, what do you mean they didn't file their form? Because of how what a high profile they have in town. And we report... I'm sorry to interrupt you, but by high profile, do you mean owners of high value properties, well-known people? Well-known people in and around our town, some of whom actually have held public office. So it's... No one at this table. I think I filed. No one at this table. I believe I filed. I always filed. Yeah, no one at this table, but otherwise no names mentioned. But enough to know enough that certain folks are very well known and considered residents and have held positions of power in town. And or elected or, you know, employment positions, which would only be held by a resident. And probably are registered to vote here. And are registered to vote here. So registration, interesting point just for what it's worth. Whether or not you're resident for the purposes of voting, you all probably all know the drill from working with Sarah all these years on the checklist. And you don't have to live here, but your heart has to live here and you have to consider this. And tend to remain. Right. That's the standard. The HS-122 has different criteria. That is something that is considered, but it is not the bottom line. So I just want to keep on reading this because this is, because this is something that there's actually more. This is actually really important. Good. Okay. So going down to where it applies to us. Okay. If the property incorrectly declared as a homestead is located in Mississippi, it has a lower homestead tax rate. That's not us. That's a non-residential tax rate. Or if an undeclared homestead is located in a municipality that has a lower non-residential tax rate than a homestead tax rate, that is us. Then the governing body of the municipality may include a penalty of up to 8% of the education tax liability on the property. That's what Darinda is bringing to you tonight. Then if the commissioner determines, this is what he, that the declaration or failure to declare was with fraudulent intent. That's not the select board's responsibility. That's the commissioner's intent. Then the municipality shall assess the taxpayer penalty in the amount of equal to 100% of the tax education on the property. That's the big prop, the penalty. But the key words there are up to the commissioner. Right. And that is new. That's new. That's new wording. So in other words, this puts a lot of responsibility on the commissioner to come back and say it's a fraudulent intent, which has always been the way we don't do the investigation. The listeners don't do the investigation. The listeners might tip off the department of taxation. It's up to the taxation to take that ball, then will not talk to us about who they're investigating to investigate it. So far, I have not seen any memo from anyone saying you can tax somebody, you can assess 100% penalty. But that's not the select board's decision anyway. The select board's decision anyway is up to, do you want to impose 8% penalty on people who are late filers on their homestead, putting aside whether or not they're doing it fraudulently, because that's not something the board is ever going to have to deal with. But just to be clear, late does not mean, late does not mean non. Right. So it's the non people. So the people, the non-compliant people, they're still going to get away with it. Right. But even if somebody files it later, they're still late. But the theory is that it creates a lot of work, and therefore what the 8% penalty does is it kind of recoups some of the costs. Today, Derinda had to come in an hour earlier that was charged to us to deal with a taxpayer having problems with his mortgage comfy over some confusion. He is a chronically late HS-122 filer. Every single year he's late. And every single year we have to spend time with him going all the way back to Cindy. And so Derinda spent an hour there. So this is the municipality's way of recouping some of those costs. And that's probably the way you probably are. Is it discretionary, or is it like? No, it's across the board. You can't do that. And the listeners have those, Eric and I have had those conversations regularly with people on the phone, in person, when we're visiting people at their homes, doing appraisals or assessments. So it is a big problem. So the non-filer problem, that's a problem that's going to be really hard to catch. So catch somebody that you don't know. Because, I mean, other than to see. So Amy, if you were looking at the problem and how to solve it, how many of the people are late filers? And how many are non-filers of the people in middle sex? So I actually reported to you guys a few months back on the number of people who didn't. And this is totally from my memory. So these numbers are close. I was looking at my notes and I couldn't find it. Close, but no guarantees that I'm exactly on. Roughly speaking, we had about 40 people that we tagged based on advice that we've been given earlier last year from the Department of Taxes. That we should actually manually flag people who we believe to be residents and bill them as if they were residents, if they had not filed their HS-122s. We did that. We lodged our grand list. We printed our tax bills and we weighed it. And then we saw how many people filed late. Of those 40-ish people, about half, never filed. And that was just a set selection of people that we had gone through knowing that they had previously at some point filed or that we knew to be residents. So can I ask a clarifying question? Are you telling me that, I want to make sure I'm hearing this quickly, that you identified people that you were pretty certain lived here. You actually sent them a tax bill that was a residential tax bill. Did anyone call you to say this isn't right? Actually, what happened was the people...  Most of the people... So sort of, yes, that's sort of what happens. For people who are the perpetual late filers as Sarah was alluding to, it's a flag for them, wait a minute, where's my state payment? I'm supposed to get help from the state making this payment. Well, the HS-122 is the trigger that starts the process for the state payments. You don't get a state payment if you don't do an HS-122. Bingo. So when we sent out those tax, taxes with the resident rates on them, about half of the people realized, eek, I haven't filed my form. And they did. And they filed them before the October 1st deadline. Okay, so they were sort of people who inadvertently didn't do it and were... They were late. Normally they would do it. They were late. Because they would get a state payment. Or their mortgage company fell things up or something. No, no, this is truly... No, mortgage company won't fall. This is truly... This is your late filer example. And a number of those people are, again, perpetually late filers. So the half that responded, their bills were adjusted as their payments came in, et cetera, or not. Some of them didn't qualify for a payment. The rest of them, the other 20-ish, we actually had to flip back to non-residential. Because we never received HS-122 homestead information from the state for those people. They never actually filed. So you can't technically bill them... The residential rate. The residential rate. But you did originally. Because it was based on advice that we'd been given. So interesting. Which turned out to be, we got the advice from someone originally, and then later we were told, nope, you shouldn't do it that way. Different people within the same... But you identified who you thought were. Okay, so that's about it. Now what is it... Why can't we as a select board send a letter to these people saying, we believe that you should... We can't force someone to do it. But to say to them, we believe... Just so that we can let them know we have our eyes on you. You will be giving your name for the state commissioner of taxes for enforcement activity. So you guys don't have that... I'll use the term loosely authority. Because you don't technically have access to who does and who doesn't receive the payment. So who has that authority? Listers. And the sound clerk. And the treasurer. So... And the delinquent tax collector. Because those are the people who actually are responsible for making sure the bills are accurate. Well, what would scare the dickens out of those people the most? A letter from a lister or the treasurer. So actually, in all of this going on, Dorna and I had talked a bit about... Because it turned into a big administrative snafu when it was happening. When we were having to revert them back and then have to reprint tax bills. Again, the administrative burden is heavy there. So we were talking about the possibility of sending out a letter. And that still is an option to do. Also, the listers. I'm speaking on behalf of Eric who is here right now. But he and I...  But have talked about actually standing up at town meeting and speaking to this. But if someone's not in the room, they're not going to hear. So a letter still should go out. And it should go to everybody, not just the filers. So there is a postage burden, things like that, getting the letter out. However, if we're going to do it, we need to do it across the board. That way we know we've hit every parcel of the property. Thanks for letting me jump in and help you out. No, I appreciate that. So no, that's been very helpful. So how much... There are two elements to this, right? We're not getting tax dollars we should get. And we're spending extra money in terms of Lister time and Treasurer time and other time. Town clerk time on the phone. Sprite, submitting duplicate revised tax bills, all the stuff. So in terms of this, this to me is actually a minor part of this. The 8%, but it's important. I mean, when I came to you guys a couple of months ago with those original numbers, it was several, it was many thousands of dollars. It was not 10,000, but it was a lot of thousands enough. Yeah, it was six, eight, seven. And this would offset some of that, especially when our budget's going up all over the place. No, no, believe me, I get that. All I'm saying is it's ironic that we're going to penalize the late filers who ultimately comply and are obeying the law. And yet the people who are the real offenders in this, there's nothing we can do to them. Sort of. I'm only going to peel you apart a little bit in that they're not actually following the law. The late filer, everyone is required to file that form in April.  It's nearly a convenience. In fact, when the gentleman was in this afternoon that Dorinda was meeting with, she explained to him that you are not, it doesn't have anything, it does have to do with your income tax and that's when people send it to the state when you're sending your taxes. However, right, it's based on the tax payments and the tax bill you've got this year.  I know, you look at your two things, right. And put it in. And as far as like the rest of it, it's looking for the, you know, there's, there is some information that comes from W-2s, I think like different types of tax payments and things that are. Well, your income that comes from other sources. However, people living with you and all that. People do, you can estimate. So in the state has said that for years. If you don't know exactly, you can estimate. So it's based on what you believe your situation would be because you have, you should have received all your W-2s. But still fundamentally. And I understand what you're saying. April 15th is the due date, but you do it before October 15th. October 1st. 1st, whatever it is. So is that, I mean, if it's after October 1st, then it's late? No, no. I can't get their statement. Oh, yes. Right, April 15th is after April 15th, it's late. And that's what's creating all the work. The people who wait until the October 1st deadline. And everything has to be ready. Then we have to go back and redo everything. And it basically, it, you know, we base our tax rate on, you know, what that grand list is and what we feel is a resident and a non-resident. And so it affects everybody here. So I guess my concern would be that, you know, if we decide we're going to do this penalty or impose this penalty that we educate our townspeople that, you know, even though it's tied in with your sort of tax time and filing your taxes, if you're planning on, you know, filing an extension, you still need to do, that doesn't count as, because I think that, like, what we don't want to have people do is say, wait, what? I filed an extension. I should be able to do that, too. And then get all mad at us, because I think we seem to be able to educate people. We're going to have to send out, we're going to have to make a real effort. A, probably send out a letter to everyone, post stuff on Frontport Forum, you know, all the, pull out all the... May I say something as a town clerk? Yes, you may. So I deal with this, been dealing with this for seven years. Everybody who receives a corrected bill is going to say, it already says kind of whiteed out penalty waived. So these people who are, who are chronic late filers, they've been looking at penalty waived for seven years. So it is also on their tax forms. It's like saying, you know, the IRS sending out and saying, now look at, if you cheat, there are penalties for that.  Is it 8% APR? It's 8% of the total. This is, you can go up to 8%, but for example, ask Bobby Brimblecomb at our, who's the Marshfield town clerk, because we were talking about this at our meeting here two weeks ago, and I said, how did you go from not imposing a penalty to imposing a penalty? And this is very Bobby, but she said, well, one time we just imposed the penalty and people paid it. And that was it. And most towns do, the most towns do actually loving this fee, loving this penalty. And they don't, some don't go up to 8%. Right. No one at the table went up to 8%. They went up to 5%. It was typical rating, you had. 5. 5, okay. But it is worth knowing that we are in, we're in the minority by the way. I'm happy with that to impose a penalty. Well, I remember, I remember the discussion when we initially waived this. And the idea was, was to get everybody familiar with the new procedures. How familiar they are, who knows. I mean, I would really want to think about doing this without pulling out all the stops and letting people know. I just, I just doesn't quite pass the sniff test for me to just say, gotcha. That's why we're doing it now, before town meeting and before tax bills go out. Because now's the time to make that. Right. We're going to get as much information out as we can. And then, you know, we can follow it. And do you think the best way to do that is putting it on the warning and having people discuss it? No. No, no, no. Because that only, at most, we get 20 or 25% of the population at town meeting. So now we've got our. But you did put it in our town report. You did put it at the bottom. I did put it something in the town, my portion of the town report that, you know, it was required by law to file this form and that the town could assess this penalty. I didn't say you were or you wouldn't, but it was up to the town that they could. And because that was as far as I could go with it at the time. But the work, can I just clarify? The work is involved in that people who file it late. It's ours. I mean, they're, yeah, because they're getting a credit. And that's a problem. Like we have to read, calculate their tax. It's not that simple. I'm sorry I interrupted you, Liz. It's not that straightforward. It's literally everything, soup to nuts from receiving the information from the state, making the adjustment in the file, making the adjustment in the list or file that then comes over to the tax side and the bookkeeping and the treasurer's side for the billing purposes. It's explaining it on the phone to the person when they call in or when they send in a letter or they come in and they say, I don't understand what's going on here. What is the problem? And coincidentally, if somebody, if we want to think a little bit about I don't want to hurt the people who can't afford this and yet I do also want to be fair to people who could afford this, think of it like this. If someone is going to get a state payment and they haven't filed for the HS122, they're on the hook for their full-bore taxes. When they file that form, even if they're filing it late and getting that 8% fee. They're still getting it. If they're still getting some state aid, that's going to lessen the burden than they would have had had they not filed their form.  It's across the board. It's across the board. It's everybody. So, but you would, I mean, anyone who files late and even if, because the state regardless sends a letter to the town clerks and says, this person doesn't get a... They send it to us, the listeners. Yeah, they say this person doesn't get a credit or doesn't get any state aid. It pops up in the text. It comes through if you get one. So, it's a positive. We don't get the no's. We don't get the no's. We only get the yes. So, you would only then do the penalty. You wouldn't know if someone filed late and didn't get the aid. Sorry, I'm sorry. I misunderstood your question. Yes, we would know once you filed, whether or not you get payment or not. We wouldn't know if you hadn't filed. In other words, we're not going to... Right, yeah. That's the only thing you don't know. The non-fielder's dodge all of those. Okay, yeah. The non-fielder's dodge it. But even the people who file late who don't get a credit would get penalized as well. Everybody. Everybody. Anyway, yeah. So, I'm just going to add one more thing as town clerk. The bigger problem I see that begins in the spring and goes all the way, including to this afternoon, is that we get people who say, I'm going to, like you said, I don't file my taxes or I get extensions. And we have people who are self-employed. So, they will call us up after they get their tax bills and say, if I pay this on my tax bill, I think I'm going to get that. Will I be okay? That creates all sorts of confusion and problem. Because now they're going to get a revised tax bill in September. It's not going to be exactly what they thought they're going to get. Then they get mad. Then we have to redo. It is a very long process. The fact that we had a conversation in February, about a 2019 tax bill, shows you how persistent this is. Okay. So, are we going to make a motion to add a penalty? Wait for the motion. Yeah, but do we need to come up with a number? Yes. So, what should that number be? Five percent? I like five percent. That's one that I can still- Is this a year-to-year thing or is this forever until we change it? It's a year-to-year thing, Peter. We can change it every year. This will come up on our radar screen next year. We can change it. All right. Do you guys feel good about five percent? It's a place to start. It's a good start. It's a place to start. Well, I mean, it's a place to start and it's based on experience in other towns. Okay. So, I'll move that we put a penalty of eight percent- I'm sorry, five percent on those who file their Homestead declarations after April 15th. Second. All those favor the motion? Aye. Aye. Any opposed? So, you don't have to get permission through statute to oppose this. This isn't one of those- It's right there in the statute. It's in the statute. It's in the statute. So, we just have to vote here. Okay. But that's part of the new stuff. That was awesome. That, as always- Hold on to your hats. Okay.  Turn the ringer off on your cell phone. Oh, no. It's going to have something. The people who- Amy is absolutely right. When the tax bills were changed, a lot of people were grateful because they didn't- otherwise would not have gotten their state payments. The people who are not going to get a state payment who are fraudulently doing this- I can just not get it. If that is- That's not our problem that we could just- That's a statute change. I mean, it's- We can try a lot of notification, but I don't think- We didn't get any blowback last year. And we do report. I mean, we do still have the capacity to report to the Department of Tax, and we do report to our folks who we believe are truly residents who vote here who we see here who- What does the Tax Department do with them? They're taking in the information at this point. Well, they came to me about my sales tax, and now I'm diligently paying my sales tax every year. I go back to my eBay- Oh, the use tax, right? Yeah, the use tax. They made me pay for three years, because, you know, it's just a common thing. I don't go shopping. They're like, yes, you do. Did you pay that? Yeah, I paid it. I paid for three years, and now I go back and I look at anything that was- I didn't pay tax, but- You didn't have to pay that, right? You know what? It was my duty to pay the state tax, so- I just send them money every year, but it's just based on a blind guess. Well, I'm not going to do that, because most of it is taxed now by eBay, and- Well, they just- So I'm not doing it based on my income. There was just an article in the paper on that this week, and that the state received almost triple what they were expecting in taxes. Because people are being honest. No, no, it's since Amazon, and that's the- Oh, so- Oh, yes, because they're all doing it, yeah. And they said that state revenues are triple what they expected. It's one of the reasons- Well, the- It's the third parties that are taxing. When you buy something from Amazon, third party, they're not taxing. So I just go and I find what I pay tax on, and I add that up and I say that's what I pay tax.  Yeah, that's what we have you on. But otherwise, they say, they just say, okay, we're assuming you bought X number of dollars untaxed. And I'm like, no, I didn't, because I paid my taxes. Just send them a random amount. That's my- But anyway, I don't need one of those. Okay. And we've got some finance- Thank you, Amy. Thank you so much for your time. Thanks, Amy. That's what you want, right, those things? Yeah, okay, that was it. Perfect. So, you don't want- These are December, it's as of December, and I think we'll have January's coming out very quickly, but there's no real surprises here, so. So here's a question. You'll remember the greater issue that we discussed earlier. Yes. Don't tell me it died. No, I don't know. Oh my God, it's a strange measure. Not yet, but here's the question that's going to come up, and we need to be ready to respond, is the ideal time to spend that money on the greater and get it ready to go for mud season and spring and summer grading is to do it now, not after July 1st. To do what? To do the upgrade? To do the anticipated repair. You know the repair. Oh, the repair. It's a shaky thing. Yeah, the shaking thing. Paul said to me today, they were throwing out that $20,000 number. He's thinking and hoping it's going to be more like $10,000. He's going to know fairly soon. He's going to come to us with a number, but get ready, because I agree. I mean, if we have to rent a grader for a couple of weeks, because our grader is being repaired in July, we're going to spend $6,000 or $7,000 renting it. Let's get it repaired now. Yeah, well, that's what I'm saying. But I believe I had a sticky note put on to one of those invoices. So nicely by Amy today that I believe that. Is that the maintenance and repair department that's over? Equipment maintenance. Huh? Equipment maintenance. Equipment maintenance is already $64,000 over wait. That's right. Because of all the money, we had to spend that on the clutch. So I'm just throwing that out there. Don't want it out. And that's, um... No, I know. I'm just saying whether we do some kind of a budget adjustment or plan on $10,000 less maintenance or whatever we do. That's right. Let's do it now and not have to rent. Unfortunately, I think so. So we'll know what the number is. He's contacting a couple of people to try and get the best price. But the beat goes on with the grader. So nothing in here that jumps out at you, Dorinda? Uh, no, they're really... I mean, nothing yet. I mean, we're only six months into it right now. So it was... That was just happening to be one of the items. How come there's four cents? It's a planning commission. That's been in there forever. Can't we get rid of it? The problem is, is because most of these funds were... You know, we tend to a certain extent, but most of these funds were designated by the voters. They were, you know, special articles or whatever. So you can't just clear up. So you can't just go, well, move it into the best account. So when something comes up that we can apply it to, we will. It's not hurting anything. It's just... Mary, when you're done with those, I have to leave soon. Sure. Or the clip goes for everything right there. I was just going to go through them. Some people have all the fun, Liz. I know. Well, you know... Are you on the side? Do we know? I think that's it, yeah. Okay, thank you. Approval of the January 21, 2020 minutes. Is there a motion? I'll move it. Second. All in favor? Aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? We've approved our minutes. Approving Red Hen Bakery 2020 liquor license. Is there a motion? Move approved. Second. Yeah. Is there a second? Second. Thank you. All in favor of approving the Red Hen 2020 liquor license. Say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Would you guys mind just signing this? The only reason, and unfortunately, we don't have Steve or Paul here, but... I amended the agenda to include that public assistance grant funding just to make sure we don't have anything we can put in to that grant. And I guess what I'll do is reach out to Steve and Paul and just make sure... That we don't have anything? Because we have not. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I just don't want to miss it. Because it said middle six is one of the towns. Yeah, but that was the storm, and we had almost no damage.  Why did it come up as a town? Because it's in Washington, I guess. I really don't know. I just want to be... We've discussed this, we've talked about it, but nobody was affirmatively told me that no, we don't have anything. So if it's all right with everybody, I will follow up with them. And as long as they say, no, we don't have anything, we'll... That'll be the end of that. I just didn't want it to fall off the radar screen and have us not see it. So we've got 15 minutes of Liz's attention, and we're almost there. She's looking at all the bills. I'm looking at the bills. I don't see where the sticky note is, and I don't know how I would... It's attached to one of the invoices that said this invoice made it. It was on one of those invoices. It's just a handwritten sticky note. Okay. Yeah. Matthew Clark, correspondent. Tech Kim, Jessup, and Heather do something about this. You know, they have something called the Miscellaneous Tax Bill, which is usually put together by the tax department. And what they do is when they have little glitches here and there, they just put it in to take care of. And this is definitely a miscellaneous type thing, and just because they have a new commissioner. Because the person who has this head of ways and means is Janet Anso from Calis. That's why I asked if Calis had a higher non-residential, because if she did, you could get your town clerk. I mean, you could get what's her name, Fitch. Judy Finch. Finch. She's a Finch, not a Finch, oddly enough. I thought she was a Finch, but she's not. She's a Finch. Okay. Well, the Finch is her and all family in Calis. This is why it's so important. Well, I just saw Judy at this meeting, and I'm trying to remember whether or not they imposed something like that. I mean, they could slip that in that bill. That bill is a must pass bill every single session. And there's no reason why we couldn't address the second part of the problem, which is the late filers and just add a penalty. Wait, you mean non-filer? Non-filer. I mean, the non-filer. So just if you want some background, the background is that the state tax department is understepped and overburdened. And I think if they had the time, they would research this, because the statute gives the commissioner the ability to impose a 100% penalty on fraud. The problem is that the tax department just doesn't have any penalty. Yeah, but we still don't have any penalty for non-filers. It is in the statute. Look, if the commissioner finds out that they're non-filers, if they intentionally non-filed, then there's 100% penalty. They're just not doing it. They're not doing it. They're just not doing it. And Kim is now in appropriation, so she's very busy learning. Well, so then she's really a good person to have too, but Kim could take the lead on this. So I'm saying it should be something we could solve, and then in some way, I'm not suggesting that we have to solve it, but it's... Solving it is getting the commissioner to take action. Right? It's already in the statute. Or removing the fraud. Obviously it must have come up for them to change that statute this year. Yeah, but what I'm saying is that maybe you remove the fraud, or maybe, you know, you lessen the standard or something. Well, it's inherently fraud, though. I mean, if they know they're residents and they... That's what I'm saying. Maybe we remove the fraud thing. All I'm saying is it should be pretty straightforward to solve it if the town clerks make a stink. And especially since we have two people in a position where they could slip it in, it would be so easy. I mean, having dealt with this tax bill, you could put whatever you want just to solve problems. Anyway, what do you guys think? So this is one of those things. I'm trying to remember back, you know, to the filing reform. You file it if you're declaring a homestead, and you don't do anything if you're not, right? It's an either or. But you still file it. Yes, no. No, no. You file it.  And the problem is is it's income sensitive, too. Yeah. So people, a lot of people who fall in or out of that threshold determines whether or not they're going to file it or not. Whether you think you're going to get any money back or not, you still have to file it. You're still supposed to file it. But maybe people don't know. Maybe they don't know. Maybe they think, well, I don't get one. So why do I have to file it? Well, that's because the form clearly states you should file it. I mean. Turbo tax says you should file it. Yeah, I believe you do it for us. All accounts. It fills it out. My accountant always says file it. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I find mine. And they prepare us. No falling asleep when you're in that. I'm a little tired right now. I'm probably going to. And I'm hooked. You're adrenaline. Why don't you suit up?  How about that? I don't think it's time to get a sandwich. There's no time. I've got to go find some fires, guys. Yeah, okay. Have you got a warm enough coat? I think I'm going to be an outfit, Mary. I don't think I'm going to be in this. I think I'm going to be in this. I think I'm going to be in this. Turn out here. She's going to have on this. Yes. I am. And am I going to be doing this until like nine o'clock at night? I have no idea. Just get us. And then you've got to hang around and drink a beer. I need a picture of you when you turn out here. Please. So put it in the town report. Yeah. The cover of the town report. It's already done. It's already done. You can't tell Sarah what to do though. Well, okay. So this is what I also am going to propose is that the fire department gets the money for the dinner at town meeting. And that might, you know, engage us in some community. Goodwill. Goodwill. So wait a second. Who gets it now? The food shelf. But we don't need the money right now. We've got a healthy budget. And then, you know, we get some people volunteering from the food, from the fire department to help serve food and help clean up. Right. I don't know what it is. So you want to broach that money? I'm going to ask them tonight. And you're still out. Yeah, I'll double check with, I don't see why Dave Kierke who manages the budget for the food shelf would have anything against it. I just think it's a nice little way for them to start engaging in the community. Even though they all come with the exception of two people from outside. Yeah, thanks. Well, I'm going to take a milk dead to go. I don't know. That's all you need. You're handful. That'll keep you going. So anyway, don't. So Mary, I don't disagree with anything you're saying. The question is, it would be great if the town clerks would do it or the treasurers would do it. Or I don't know if it should come from us. I don't know. I mean, we could send a letter to Kim and say, hey, this is a problem. You need to get on it. I don't think we should call Kim and ever talk to Dorenda and get on it. I don't know if there's a lot to talk about. It's a problem that I mean. Actually, she just talked to the town because she's got all the statute right there. So Sarah, do you want to try and get hold of Kim? I guess my question is, what do you want me to say? That's the whole thing.  Why don't you just call her, Mary? Just call her. Okay. If that's okay. I mean, I'm. I'm sure it's okay. Yeah, a little. Do you have her cell phone number? Well, anyway, you could. You can give it to me afterwards. So Phil, just a quick update on the computer situation. Yes. I don't think Mary was here. All the computers are in there. They're sitting right over there. And what did I say? We scheduled for the installation on, this is February, right? February 28th is the first day because we wanted to do it on a Friday when the office was closed, with a back update of the 6th, either if it's just horrendously bad weather or they don't get it all done in one day and have to come back. So we're moving. So should they be plugged in and powered up and run a little bit before they come here or do you don't do that anymore? Just pull them out of the box. Pull them out, yeah. Did you send something on email about us getting our, you know, our new emails? Yeah, new emails. And I missed that. Or is that the old one when you said hold off? Because we... And then I sent a new one. Oh, when did you send the new one? Oh, a while ago. I better check. Yeah, it should slowly be in here. I have some news. Are you done with the computers or are you told? Yeah, that's the one. I hired Dave Smith to be the assistant clerk. Hey, guys. Who is he? He lives across the street. Right across the street. He's married to Emily Smith. He's the former news editor of the Times-Argus and he used to work in the communications department of Norwich University. He's got a video business on the side. In fact, he's going to be going to Africa on behalf of Norwich University in June to shoot this kind of video on this African town that Norwich is involved in. So he just needs a business that's kind of, he just needs the flexibility to run his freelance business while being right over here. So I'm going to bring him in for three mornings a week from 8.30 to about 12.30. And then he'll have the afternoons to both work on his video business and his son is a student at Rumney. So it all works out. It's great. And he's going to have the, you guys can work out so you can take some time off from time to time. I think so. Not this year because it's 2020. And he's even running for the language. And he is running for collect. Is he really? I asked him. How much do you pay him? Perfect. That's right. He just slipped him something under the tent. He sure won the, what's next, middle sex committees. Does he? Yeah. Because he invited me to come up and talk about broadband. I can't remember what's- Is he retired? Yeah. That's the other great- Is he retired now? No, no, no. No, he's not that old. He just left the Times Argus starting up this video. Oh, yeah. But he's also very, very web savvy. In fact, he used to be the web guy at Norwich and the communications firm. So he might be able to help with computers. He might be able to help us with our website, my email, emails. Wow, great thinking. Good work. That's great news. Contact him. I did. I contacted him. Actually- He's always been in the back of my mind. He's a very talented guy. He's very mild-mannered. Yeah. He's got experience dealing with the public and all sorts of forms. And he's intelligent. So- Great. So when does he start? Well, he's actually been training for a couple of- He had a big training session today and when Rika's back from vacation, we'll bring him into justy recording. But so- It's been a babysit. The office tomorrow will have a doctor's appointment. It's better than calling you. Perfect. So unfortunately, I had a change in my plans and I may not be available for the next meeting. I'm flying to Denver that day. So depending on how that goes and when I land, I may be able to call in, but I may not be. What if a guy from FEMA coming to explain exactly what the town's obligation will be in regard to- Perfect. Meeting to miss. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty. Excellent. So we just need to be sure. When's the next meeting? Today's the 4th. It's the 18th. 18th. Also, that will be a Board of Civil Authority meeting and I'd like to discuss about processing absentee ballots beforehand. Yeah. Well, it'll be so good we could go and check this out. Okay. Well, hopefully I will be able to call in, but- Well, we can schedule a different day for a BCA meeting. I'm not worried about the BCA meeting. You can do the BCA meeting without me. I hate to miss the select board meeting. I planned to- I thought the dog was out there already. What? The dog is there. Now, this is the- This is the midwinter- midwinter visit, as they say, and getting my car back here. I discovered driving around in my great- I drove the car out to get the dog out there, flew back, and now my car is sitting out there buried in snow in Colorado. Yeah. And I'm trying to go downtown and do my errands in my three-quarter-ton truck with a plow on it, which is a little inconvenient. To say there's no parking, I blocked off half the Shaw's parking lot to say after noon when I went in to get a dozen eggs. Anyway. You could have gone to another store to get the eggs. Whatever. I'm just saying- Those trucks take up two spaces. At least. At least. Any other business? Okay. I would say we are. Wait, wait, wait. Don't we have an executive session? Well, camera. So we don't need- Camera, camera. Yeah. We do not need to have an executive session for what I should report, which is we have a workers' compensation claim by one of the road crew, a back injury. And it's been reported to the insurance company and it's being investigated. So more news to follow. There's nothing you don't need an executive session to do that.