I have seen people boycott, leave social media and Facebook for years. And it always saddens me when I see it for a couple of reasons. One is that I am usually correct in guessing that they will be back and they usually do come back. But even if they don't come back, the social media platform loses something, loses a valuable voice, loses a meaningful contributor. And basically, and the other reason why it's so sad is because that person who leaves social media is essentially deplatforming themselves. They're canceling themselves because social media at this time is the main place for society's attention it's how culture, how people communicate with each other. Right, we don't write, we don't rarely mail physical letters anymore. We don't call people up randomly anymore. Maybe a few of you still do that. And a lot of people don't even check their email messages on a regular basis but they still check social media regularly. Now, here's the thing. Some of you might think that I'm tone deaf to be talking about this right now because Facebook is currently going through one of their toughest periods of PR in their history. A lot of hate for Facebook right now. There are major news organizations that have combined together to basically take down Facebook because of the Facebook whistleblowers Facebook is Instagram is bad for teenage girls. Facebook is bad for democracy. Facebook is terrible for privacy. I get it. It's cool to hate on Facebook. Let's just be honest with you. It's socially acceptable right now not to be doing what I'm doing. It's socially cool and you're smarter. You're more ethical right now. If you say Facebook is evil, if you use Facebook, you're reluctantly doing it. It's cool to do all that right now. But here's the thing. It doesn't matter. Let's just be perfectly honest. I'm gonna just, you leave social media. What kind of a difference does that make? Okay, let's talk this through, okay? You leave social media.  Oh, so and so left social media. Wow, so brave, so bold. They're gonna try to build their business. And by the way, I'm speaking to most of you who are business self-employed or small business owners. You're shooting yourself in the foot if you leave social media.  You're so ethical.  And then we praise you on social media for a couple of days, a couple of weeks at most. And then we forget about you. And then what?  Please somebody tell me below how are you going to build your business without social media? Yeah, sure, you can.   What are you gonna do? Text messages? What are you gonna do? You're gonna email your friends to please refer you some business. You're gonna email your friends, your newest article. You know, by not being on social media you also have less incentive to write. You have less incentive to make content, right? So what are you gonna do now? You're gonna rely on your email newsletter. Oh, George, email newsletter is the only way we really reliably reaching our audience, is that right? Yeah, I've heard that ever since 2009 when I started my business. Build your email list. Okay, folks, that's really old school knowledge. Let me explain why that's outdated. Okay, so email lists building used to be cool and really important from 2009 to I would say probably mid 2010s. It was still a cool thing to talk about email list building and how important that was. And then people started noticing, oh, people don't even check their emails much anymore or they got overrun with email newsletter to subscribe to. And of course, email softwares like Gmail and everything they're now placing email newsletters in different promotions folders, updates folders, spam folder. And so email became less and less reliable over time as a way to keep in touch with people. But also here's the thing, I have an email newsletter too. Of course I do.  Word of mouth is the most important channel for marketing. You don't know what you're talking about. Everybody has word of mouth. Are you kidding me? Everybody has word of mouth. I have word of mouth too.  But if you liked it, if you comment on it, you make it a little bit even more likely that some of your friends see it. If you share it, obviously you make that even more likely. So word of mouth as the main way of building business is such, it's not, it's unwise marketing advice because everybody gets word of mouth. That's baseline for every single business in the world. Even somebody with no audience, at least their family member, their friends are trying to tell other people about their business. Word of mouth is normal.  It's so much easier. An email list is normal too. Everyone has, everyone who does any kind of marketing has some kind of email list. Some of you don't, I know, because you realize you could actually build a business without email lists. Why? Well, I have a whole other video about that, but email list is one of multiple channels that would be wise for you to be reaching your audience. Some of you are subscribed to my email newsletter, of course, but you also see me on social media. And that's, that means I am more top of mind for you because you see me in these multiple places. So the person who is leading social media, they seem really brave, principled and cool for like three weeks. And then we forget about them. Sadly, I mean, I wanna remember them. I wanna think about them. I wanna refer them business, but I don't remember them because I don't see them on social media on a regular basis anymore. They're deplatforming themselves. It's silly. George, George, you haven't gotten to the fact that Facebook is evil. It's bad for democracy. It's bad for privacy. And it's bad Instagram and Facebook are bad for kids. All right, let's talk about that, shall we? Okay. So if you're going to say that Facebook is bad and evil, then why is it that they frequently feature articles that say that they're bad and evil? Let me show you, I mean, I just for the past couple of weeks especially since Facebook has been so bad in the news lately, for the past couple of weeks, I have been noticing articles because I serve Facebook news just like many of you do. And for the past couple of weeks every time I log on to Facebook, news item, the menu on my phone, it's telling me how bad Facebook is. Okay, let me, that's just one screenshot. Let me give you another screenshot. I was like, I was genuinely shocked. I was like, I'm like, wow, Facebook isn't censoring the articles about them being evil. So what does that mean?  Because I am interested in Facebook news.  I'm really curious what's going on with the company and the PR that's happening. So I tend to click on news articles regarding Facebook, the company. And so Facebook knows that. And so Facebook is now giving me articles all the time. As part of, I haven't even clicked through to the news section and they're already showing, showcasing to me why Mark Zuckerberg is evil and why Facebook is terrible for society. Let me show you another example. This is the top of when I clicked through to the Facebook news, okay, tool. This was the top article. It's an unflattering picture of Mark Zuckerberg and talking about how terrible Facebook is. Okay, I could show you example after example, but let me move on here. So Facebook and social media, let's be really clear what social media, how they win. How are they getting society's attention? How are they so addicting? You know why? Well, let me ask you, why is junk food addicting? Why is, why are video games addicting? Because they give you what you want. So whose responsibility is it when you get addicted?    Who has more responsibility in the case when you are addicted to social, when anybody is addicted to social? Now, when kids are addicted to social media and their self-esteem is being shaped by Instagram likes and Instagram images, whose fault is it? Well, kids, you can't blame them. Their brains are not developed yet to make wise decisions. So what about their parents then? Some parents prohibit their kids from using social media. Some parents have that kind of relationship with their kids where their kids, you know, well, I'm not, I'm not gonna say that, you know, of course some kids are harder to parent than other kids, but still I think the parents have a big responsibility when kids become addicted to anything.  Any drugs really?  Do you let your kids get addicted to film the blank junk food? Do you let them just eat whatever ice cream and junk food that they want? Probably not, right? You're very careful about that. So why aren't you more careful about how they're using their technology? I'm not blaming you. I'm just saying that, you know, by the way, same thing with yourself. If you are letting yourself get addicted to anything, then perhaps you have a responsibility and an opportunity to parent yourself a little better. Now, social media, do they have, do they have the government intercept policy on them to, you know, be more censoring of certain information, misinformation, disinformation to prevent, you know, kids from getting addicted and prevent us from getting addicted and protect our privacy and all that? Probably. Now, if you are going to boycott social media and not share that information on social media, guess who wins? Actually, nobody wins because social media loses you as a customer and society loses you as a voice on social media because that's where society is reading everything. But George, George, be everyone's leaving Facebook though. Didn't you know that? I hear all my friends are leaving Facebook. Oh, really? Is that right? Okay, well, let's take a look, okay? Let's take a look at this. You think everyone's leaving Facebook and let me go ahead and show you the actual data. Do you care about data? I hope you do. Let me show it to you. Facebook worldwide usage. Just Google it.  Facebook worldwide usage and let's click on stat, I don't know how to pronounce it, statista, which is a well-known respected source of data. Okay, all right, let's look at this. Do you see everyone leaving social media? That's ridiculous to say that, come on. Are people leaving social media? No, they're not. Now, when did the major Facebook scandals begin? Late 2015 through 2016, part of 2017, Cambridge analytical scandals were happening around this time. So let me just zoom in at this time to see if anyone left social media. Did social media slow, did Facebook usage slow down? No, it kept growing during the Cambridge analytical scandals. Look at this, kept growing from 1.2 billion in the Q1 of 2014 all the way, Q2, 2.23 billion. Okay, all right, now let's reset the zoom. And what about now these days? Now we've only got data up to second quarter, but look at now, of course, pandemic is gonna help social media, but look at this, social media, Facebook usage has now almost 3 billion internet users worldwide, which is basically most internet users because there's 4.3 billion internet users worldwide and most of them use Facebook at least once a month. The fact, I'm gonna guess that you use Facebook at least once a month, okay? So most of you, anyway. Now, so let's couple things. One, I still haven't talked about how Facebook is evil for democracy. Come on, okay. Do you have any thought leaders, activists, politicians you admire? Most of you who are hating on Facebook, there are two camps hating on Facebook. The left and the right basically, okay. Both liberals and conservatives hate Facebook, but they all use it. Everybody uses it, but everyone it's so cool to talk about Facebook badly, okay? So the liberals say that Facebook isn't censoring enough of the conservatives. The conservatives hate Facebook because Facebook is censoring them. The far left is hate Facebook because Facebook censors some of the language around whiteness and racial justice and privilege and all that stuff. Facebook censors some of that because whatever. Facebook also censors the far right in terms of vaccines and all that stuff, all that talk. So everyone it's cool to hate on Facebook. And yet there are still people who champion racial justice, who champion vaccine hesitancy. They're still on Facebook when they learn how to use different language to talk about it because I actually have friends on both sides and I know that they use different language to talk about these things effectively on Facebook, despite the censorship. And then of course there are plenty of people on both sides who say Facebook is not censoring enough because it's bad for, you know, by not censoring enough information, Facebook is bad for democracy, let's talk about this. Okay, are you going to help that cause by leaving Facebook or the alternative, you stay on Facebook, you learn to use it with good boundaries. We haven't even talked on that, but I'll talk about that later. You can either leave Facebook or you can stay on Facebook, learn self-control and use it with good boundaries and therefore benefit your business hugely for the long term, okay? And even for the short term. So you can either leave and have your voice be lost or you can stay and champion the causes that you care about and of course champion your business. What's going to be your choice? Please don't tell me you're going to leave Facebook. It is an irrational and please convince me why you're leaving Facebook. You're leaving Facebook for two reasons, political reasons because you haven't sat down and thought the people who are using Facebook that believe in my politics, how are they doing it to champion the cause? Let me look at what language they're using so we don't get censored. Let's do it. Let's continue championing the causes we believe in, okay? I think that's the real principle move. But you might say, well, I'm leaving Facebook as a principle move to not support Facebook. Your leaving is a drop in the bucket and it's going to make no difference.  Most of you, I bet you.  Because I see everybody leave. I've been on Facebook now since 2006.  They realize that, oh my gosh, I can't champion my causes without why am I de-platforming myself? It doesn't make sense. It really doesn't make sense. Now, if you say, well, Facebook is backwards, then go on Facebook and talk about that. They're not going to censor you. Just like I showed you just earlier, scroll back in this video, Facebook allows mainstream media articles attacking them as front page news on Facebook. They're not going to censor you on that. They welcome it because they want, guess what they want. Let me just be really clear. Facebook gives you what you want. Facebook gives everybody what they want.  If you want news that champion your political beliefs, they will show that to you. That's why it's bad for democracy. It splits up nations and whatever because it's giving people what they want. Whose fault is that? It's everybody's fault, I get it. But people are so disconnected from their own responsibility. I think it's just ridiculous. If you get, it's everybody's job to be mindful of what kinds of news articles they're clicking on social media, right? Why are we just outsourcing? Oh, they're feeding me this, they're feeding me that. You can choose something different on the menu. You go to the restaurant and the restaurant features this special and that special, you don't have to buy that. You can buy, they're featuring fried chicken and you could buy the salad. Yes, and guess what? The more you go to a restaurant, you buy the salad instead of the, assuming that's healthier for you, whatever. Okay, I'm just assuming salad is better for you than fried chicken. All right, you keep buying the salad, the restaurant is not gonna change their specials because the restaurant is gonna keep selling fried but social media is different. If you keep choosing the salad, social media is gonna show you the salad more often because the social media menu is individualized to you. The algorithm learns what you want and gives you more of it. That's why it's addictive.  And that's how, if you keep coming back, that's how they make money because then they could show you advertisements. And by the way, if you don't click on advertisements, they'll show you less of those advertisements. The ones that you engage with, I'm hoping if you see my Facebook ads, you probably engage with that in some way, they'll show you more of my ads. And you know my ads, I'm trying to do good in the society and bring authentic marketing, et cetera. So two reasons why people leave Facebook, you might be tempted to leave Facebook, well, I guess three reasons now again. One is political discontent. Don't leave for that reason. You should stay here and champion your cause. Any political leader or activist you think of, if they left Facebook, Facebook, your cause would be poorer on Facebook. People are still gonna use Facebook, like I showed you. People are still going to use Facebook. It's never gone down. It's continued to go up. It's the trend is gonna keep going because social media is really smart. They have all the data of how people engage and they're gonna keep making sure it's addictive. They're going to keep making sure it's addictive. Society is not gonna stop using it because you principle stance, you stop using it.  They're gonna keep making it addictive for everybody. And then you're gonna slink back three to six months to three years later, right? Come on. So, if you don't like the politics, champion your politics on Facebook. If because you're stopping social media because you have boundaries issues, you can't stop scrolling. Who's, okay. You can't stop scrolling social media. So what do you do? You can either delete it from your phone or you can use it as a spiritual practice. Yeah, knowing that it's good for your business. What's the status stat? Social media is good for your business, okay? Number one. Number two is you can't stop scrolling. So why don't you learn every time before you use social media, set a timer for 10 minutes or three minutes. It's easy. Don't you have a timer with you at all times on your phone or on the internet, on Google, if you're using social media on your computer, just Google 10 minute timer real quick and it'll pull up, it'll pull up a 10 minute time. Try it. It'll pull up a 10 minute timer like let me show you real quick. If I use social media on my computer, I just first, the first thing I do is Google 10 minute timer. Okay, cool. All right, the timer has begun. Now let me go and use social media and when the timer stops, I stop. When the timer stops, you stop what you're doing, you get up, you stretch and then you move on with your day. Guess what you've just done? You've just practiced self-control and you've become a little bit more better at keeping boundaries with yourself. Isn't that a better practice than just leaving social media even though social media is good for your business? Okay, so one thing about, okay, you end the scroll. The other reason people leave social media due to boundaries is because they get pressure thinking, I don't want, I can't respond to all these notifications. That's also because you don't know how to use social media. Could please let me teach you how to use social media. You put your phone on do not disturb. My phone is constantly, my phone, I turn on do not disturb on my phone a long time ago and it's never come off. Yes, my phone is permanently on do not disturb. Now my phone is able to say do not disturb except for phone calls from mom or whatever. I'm able to set that. And you got to look it up on your phone. Your phone is able to do that too. You just got to look it up, okay? So put your phone permanently on do not disturb, okay? Except for calls from your spouse or certain important notifications that you want, and secondly, ignore the notifications. You got to learn to stop people pleasing so much on social media, right? Like that's also your opportunity. If you feel pressured by all the notifications it's because you don't realize that it's because of your people pleasing nature and you can learn how to practice not pleasing people so much and just 10 minutes on social media. I'm just gonna do 10 minutes and my focus is on just going through the important notifications and then after 10 minutes, whatever I can do, I stop and I just, I don't care about the rest. Yes, you're allowed to do that. You're allowed to not respond to my comments, my messages. Yes, I give you that permission and everybody gives you that permission too. Stop people pleasing. It's social media is good practice for your boundaries of tech addiction and it's good for your boundaries on people pleasing. Why would you remove that practice from your life, right? It's because you didn't realize that practice was available to you and now you do. And then the third reason why people leave social media is because it's cool to leave social media. It's just, you know, it's hate, Facebook is hated. People like me who are cringeworthy continue to promote social media and use social media. I don't care about being cringeworthy. I don't care about being uncool because I know it's good for business and I know it's good for causes that I champion. Messages that I think are worthwhile. And the main cause I champion is that good people like you have messages and presence that is worth seeing. That's the main cause I champion in social media. I want you to have the visibility that your message and your presence deserves. The people that could really benefit from what you do, they need you here on Facebook, on Instagram, on Twitter, on YouTube, whatever social media that you wanted, that are popular being demonized these days. And I've said so many times, oh, social media is good for business. George, can you show us what do you mean social media is good for business? Let me just give you a quick example, all right? Quick example, and I probably should stop the video once this timer ends. Social media is the easiest way to do market testing. And I thank Brigitte and Liesl and Julie for giving me permission to share these links with you all. So these are, they took my class on market research and I'm just gonna show you real quick this example. How else is it this easy to get feedback? Okay, Brigitte asked researching about what stops you from cooking at home, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then look, she's now able to reach out to all these people to say more. I mean, this all happened within a few days of her posting this. It's so much easier to do research. Liesl asked about, you know, sensitive introverts. And if you feel that, gosh, look at all this response, okay? Julie asked about dealing with grief, especially during holidays. You know, look at the responses she's getting, right? And I mean, and I'm sure lots of people emailed her or message her privately on social media because some people don't wanna talk about that. There is no easier way to get market research from the people that's in your audience than from using Facebook posts like this or Instagram posts, okay? Now, social media, last thing I'll say is this. Social media means news from the people that you care about, people and brands that you care about. Why would you not want to receive the news from the people and brands that you care about?  So why don't you stop following them?  I just want you to use social media correctly.  Just unfollow them. They won't know. You don't have to unfriend them. You can if you want.  All right, I don't care. I do care, but I'm sorry that you got offended. It's not my fault that you got offended because I don't use social media in the way that you want. So just unfollow. People won't know you unfollow them. Got it?  It's a good experience because you actually want to see those things that uplift your life in some way. It allows you to stay in connection with the people and brands you care about. So please, I think this is enough and I think my timer has probably run out by this point. I have three more minutes left, but the bottom line is that I genuinely hope that you will buck the trend of cool people leading social media and be uncool like me and still use social media for. And knowing that the few cool people leading social media is not the majority of society who you could reach, right? There's still lots of cool people who stay. Most cool people are staying. A few of the cool people you hear about, that's the nature of the human mind is we hear about a few negative things and we remember them. Okay, George, I heard everybody is leading social media. No, no, you don't, you didn't hear that.  No, most of the cool people you know are staying on social media. The few cool people you kept in your mind because the negativity, a few negative things keep in the human mind. That's how our brains have evolved. Remember a few negativity for getting the mass positivity, right? So I say the cool people leading social media, I'm sorry for your business and for your visibility and the fact that I'm not gonna remember you as well. I'm sorry, I hope you'll come back. And for the rest of us who are willing to be uncool, okay, continue to use social media to champion your causes and to use it as a mindfulness practice for keeping boundaries to how much you scroll and for keeping boundaries on your people-pleasing activity. I hope this is helpful. I hope I've made a bit of a case for why you might wanna stay and be uncool like me. I find facetious because I actually think that this is the right thing to do. It's the right thing to do. It's the ethical thing to do. Yeah, please debate me. I don't get it. Who's of you saying it's unethical? I don't, genuinely don't get it. Your choice is to leave and not have your voice be heard. I don't get it. Okay, so stay and learn how to use it with boundaries and learn how to use it to be visible to the people who prefer you business. So I hope this helps. I look forward to your comments and your questions and I wish you well. Take care.


Hey Brett, thanks for the ride. Alright, we'll see you later. Welcome to Vogel Timeline, our news report keeping you up to date on the latest happenings here at Georgia Power's Vogel 3 & 4 site near Augusta, Georgia. In 2018, particularly following the project and leadership reset in July, we saw improved teamwork and accountability at the site. The team came together to reset expectations around standards and behaviors and have been on an improving trend ever since. As part of that, we continue to break records for hours earned. It's been a very busy year here at this site, with many milestones being accomplished. On Unit 3, many component installations took place this year, including the pressurizer, four reactor coolant pumps, and the reactor vessel internals, just to name a few. One of the most impressive lifts to date was the recent lift of the third and final containment vessel ring in November. Weighing just under 2 million pounds, approximately 38 feet high, and with a diameter of 130 feet, the ring is the fourth of five sections that make up the containment vessel. Unit 4 also made tremendous progress this year. Some of the highlights included the installation of the reactor vessel, which was set ahead of schedule in March. The two accumulators were installed in September, and the final two steam generators were also installed, completing the set of all four generators for the new units. Here with the details of all of the milestones for this year is George Kuchiravi, project director for Vogel 3 and 4. Regardless of the metric that you look at, it's a good time to reflect on what we've accomplished here at the Vogel project. We've had a very successful year here at Vogel. It has been a transformational year, a year in which 8,000 employees from over 50 companies came together and committed to deliver this project on schedule, within budget, and of the quality standards that are demanded by our owners, by the regulator, and by the public. It's also been a year of records. It's a year in which we met all the construction and project milestones we set out in January, and we completed them on time or ahead of schedule. It was a year in which we set new records for production. It's a year of firsts. The first reactor cooling pump set the first digital instrumentation and control cabinets put into place, and the first system turnovers from construction to the testing group. It's also a year of the last, the last large structural modules assembled and put into place. The last steam generator set into their locations. And so when you look at the year as a whole, the folks here at the Vogel project are very excited about what we've accomplished in 2018, but we're more excited about what we will accomplish in 2019. And it's a very proud team, and I am very proud to be a member of that team. Thanks George for the recap of all the major milestones accomplished in 2018. In 2019, much of the focus will be on system testing, new construction milestones, and the transition to operations. Here to give us a look into the future plans here at this site is Joe Kletcha, Vice President of Site Operations. Hello everyone. We come to you from Unit 3 Annex Building. We're testing and turnover our first systems are in progress. We've had several key accomplishments this year. The turnover of our first systems in the Annex Building. Additionally, we have completed our third initial license operator training class, graduating 20 students from that class. Additionally, we were re-accredited in our operations training program by the Institute of Nuclear Power Operations, and we have exceeded the inspections, tests, and acceptance criteria that we've provided to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission ahead of our targeted goals for 2018. We have reorganized our completions, testing, and turnover organizations to focus the entire site on system completions, testing, and finally turnover of systems to the operations department. As we shift our focus to turnover and testing, we're going to fully utilize the southern nuclear personnel in the operations and maintenance departments to drive this plan into a new phase. Key milestones and accomplishments for 2019 will include initial energization of Unit 3, integrated flush of Unit 3's primary systems, maintenance and basic technical training, accreditation renewal, the site's first emergency response drill, and finally, as a key result for the project in 2019, the main control room for Unit 3 will become ready for testing and operations. In closing, I want to thank the site and the project for such a great year in 2018, and we look forward to continued momentum, progress, and success as we move into 2019. Thanks, Joe, for the update on the significant progress made on the path to startup and operations here at the site. Community involvement is a large part of the story here at Plant Vogel. We couldn't wrap up today without acknowledging the incredibly generous employees at Vogel that are committed to giving back to the community. Vogel outreach initiatives have raised more than $500,000 this year for the surrounding communities. The Plant Vogel Toys for Tots campaign is always a special holiday event. The program is sponsored by the U.S. Marine Corps Reserve during the months of October, November, and December. This year, employees donated toys that were distributed to children in need in local communities. Well, that about wraps up the year for us here at Vogel 3 and 4. We look forward to seeing you next time here on the Vogel Timeline Report.


This is a kind of cheerful poem about San Francisco. I'm just warning you with that. Waiting near Trader Joe's. Waiting near Trader Joe's on the corner, heavy bags, Bryant 27 muni bus late. I am American, hate lateness. Hold that thought. Retired? No job. No little kids. Is it not foolish to care if a bus is late? Look at this. So many people walk to and fro. What if I thought but did not say, you are beautiful? An experiment. Two young men swinging arms, walking together, one black in a white t-shirt and one white in a black t-shirt. Yes. Beautiful. Small family. Hispanic? She, voluptuous and merry. He smiling down at their chubby ringlet-haired toddler in her stroller. Yes. Beautiful. And so are the young boy and girl. A vision walking as if they were ready to stop and dance.  Oops. Swift Asian woman almost running somewhere she has to go to. The shy looking pale in glasses, wearing an orange shirt with unreadable messages.  They went on and on. Silently saying, you are beautiful. Was a little like meditation or getting a little drunk or waking up from a pleasant dream of meadows and flying over trees. And then up above a gliding hawk so perfect as if an omen of the freedom of flight, of dancing in the air. Something strange, wild bird over a city, a gift of wilderness. And then I saw them. Two friends I'd lost track of and worried about. They were advancing toward me, smiling faces, alive and well. They were so beautiful. And as we hugged and spoke, the Bryant 27 Muni bus was coming down Hyde Street.


And those are always the ones that's in the studio complaining about another artist that he's better than. But he's not realizing you're better than him from a talent standpoint, but he's better than you from a business standpoint. That's the only reason why he's excelling above you. A-Con has been a very successful artist. He's been a successful music executive. He's been a successful businessman altogether, which is why I think he's one of the best people to have a perspective. To listen to when it comes to breaking down why artists win in music and business, check it out. You have to approach the artistry from a business standpoint. You have to be not just an entertainer, but you also have to be an entrepreneur. And even when I sign artists, I make it very clear, you are in the music business. I like that right there. That's a great take. The music gets you to the business. We always hear the music business taking all that stuff, but the music gets you to the business, which when you think about it, that's exactly what it does. People are only doing business with you because you have music. You have enough visibility in your music or a lot of musical talent. So now we're doing this business in the music industry. Without that, then what are we doing? The industry, when you talk industry anyway, you're literally talking about money. You're talking about business. So the music, yeah, this is that's your entry point into this business, but it's not business being the entry point into doing music. You get what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah, I get that, I get that. The music opens the door for more business. But in order for the music to thrive, you gotta do the business. So when you look at someone like Drake, let's use Drake for instance, but do you honestly think he stayed in the business this long, business consistent, this long? If he didn't have a great business acumen? He clearly has a great business sense because Drake got great business acumen. Yeah, definitely. What would you put him in terms of rating an artist of all time, business acumen? Like new artists or just artists in general? New artists. I put in top 20. Top 20? Yeah, I think so. Who is above him? I mean, the obvious like 50 cent Jay-Z, Dr. Dre, Diddy, Akon, Jason Derulo. Older people. Let's go.  And those are always the ones that's in the studio complaining about another artist that he's better than. But he's not realizing you're better than him from a talent standpoint, but he's better than you from a business standpoint. That's the only reason why he's excelling above you. God damn it, that's brother preacher. Bruh. She a crazy guy, damn. The artists who are complaining about the person who is doing better than them might have the talent, but they might not have the business acumen.  When really art and talent is like maybe 15% max. It's not even close. If you're thinking about the music as a way to get to the business, that should clearly show you that most of this is about the business. Because again, this is an industry. What's feeding people is the economy of the music industry. People aren't eating the art. They're not getting fed off of the art directly. There has to be business that gets attached to it. So you should expect to be losing if you just have talent and you're not activating business in the music industry if you're moving in the music industry, the music business. Where you should expect to beat the artist who has less talent than you. It's a talent show. Yeah. And we all know artists like that too, bro. Where you're like, you're like, man, bro, can we make up a plan to sell these t-shirts?   This bank account, man, it's looking a little stiff. Gotta be active over here. We're trying to do more business so you can have the freedom to create more art. Yeah. But you don't want to do that. You just want to be about the art. And again, a talent show, bam, all day, you got it.  We'll do all that.   You sing better than him. You rap better than him. He don't got no skills. He must have just won because he connected his mama or people think he look better or something like that, but nah, bro, you got him. You got him. But we talking about the music business. Now it's other things that play far more than just that talent. So you got to look at everything as a whole. Yeah, man. It goes back into that whole, you know, like it's cool to be just an artist until it's not, you know what I'm saying? It's cool to be cool until it ain't cool no more. Everybody want to be the cool guy. Everybody want to be chill. You don't want to be hype.  You know what I'm saying? And now all of a sudden you coming out like this. You should have had this type of energy the whole way through for your business. That's why I never agree with the sentiment. And it's really usually like in the artists or smaller artists that like hate the artist that admit they do things just for money. I get it. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, I think the artist is smart. You know what I'm saying? Because I think the artist who only does it for the love of music is the one that's got to fucked up. You know what I'm saying? One, everybody else is definitely looking at you and saying dollar signs. But if you're not seeing the same dollar signs they see you already starting off on the bad foot, you know? Or you don't have to see the exact same dollar signs. But like you not at least seeing half of that to as many as what other people are saying. Like you think, yo, my bag here is streams and touring and maybe the occasional sink deal and some pub. It's like, yeah, that's a very great traditional music path. But I promise you that the people who are around you who are probably smart in you see way more dollar signs out of you than just that. That is a fact. That is a great point. Robert Green wrote a book called 48 Laws of Power. And people talk about Robert Green. There were a lot of people that were mad. It was polarizing.  And he was like, no, no, no. I'm just letting y'all know how the world works. Things that are being done. Yes, you could use these as a weapon for destruction, but you also could just be using this information to become aware of what other people are trying to do to you. Right? It takes a con man sometimes not to get con. You have to know how a con man thinks. So at the very least, we're out here having these conversations on this platform. And I know sometimes y'all might think, man, hey, y'all too on the executive side, or y'all too, y'all seem like y'all against artists. No, we for everybody doing things and getting their best out of the situation without scoring other people over. However, everybody, not just you. One, yeah, everybody, not just you. And then two, we gotta have these conversations and put them out there in this way versus just this, oh, you be Indian, you own with your masters and everything's rainbows and butterflies. And like, but if we just had that one-sided conversation, you never get the reality and never get to think and see the game like other people see the game. And that's why I say your point, right? You gotta understand how other people are looking at you. Because if you don't know how other people are looking at you, you don't really have much leverage even if you have leverage because you don't know where your leverage exists. You know what I'm saying? I'm trying to make a deal with you.  That kind of give me an indicator. But like, I need you to get shows. I need you to actually bring people up, bring people out. But hey, if I'm just making money off your streams, you can do playlists and not having no real fans and it works for you, right?  It's like, oh yeah, your personality might mean a whole lot to somebody who wants to do a brand deal with you or use you for a TV show. Like there's different points of leverage, different decisions that get made. Artists, if you don't understand how each person is looking at you and where their incentives are, then trust me, you won't be getting the best out of the situation for yourself either. Yeah, fucks. I got to interrupt this video real quick to let the artists and managers who are looking to grow know that I have a major announcement because as many of you know, we're bringing out JR McKee who is responsible for selling over 160 million records literally along with us, right? We want to meet artists in person. However, many of you guys said, I can't make it to that event, Brandon. I really want to make it. And I know that the information is going to be great because I got to see the growth from artists who went last time. Great. Well, we finally broke down and decided to allow artists to get access to a replay 30 days after the event. However, you have to buy your ticket to the event before the event. We're not going to give anybody access to the event or the ability to submit their music for us to listen to if they don't purchase their ticket before the event, before it sells out. As many of y'all know already, there's only a hundred tickets available. So you will have the ability to get your music listened to, be considered to have a free one-on-one call with me, JR McKee and Jacory. Also, be shared on our social media platforms amounting to over 200,000 followers and be put in front of our record label distributor and manager friends, the people who can help you grow. And if they want to reach out, we'll help facilitate that. So that's the quick announcement. October 15th, www.nolabelnecessary.com slash DC, we'll put the link in the description on YouTube. If you want your music considered, if you want to see this exclusive event that we're only showing in a private space, never putting out this information publicly online, go ahead and grab it before they're sold out. Peace. Because he's learned how to take his talent and maximize the business. So in business, you want to have a brand or some kind of talent that brings the eyes to you to give you the opportunity to sell it to somebody. So music should always just be, you know, a stepping stone to get into it or a bridge to get to the opportunity. There it is.  She hit my spirit, bro. I ain't lost. Shit, she touched my soul, bro. Music is a bridge to get to the opportunity. That reminds me of those talks we had with Will I Am, who used to all the way, we didn't talk with Will I Am. Those talks we had about Will I Am, you know, them clips where he was saying, music has always been used to sell something else, right?  And they're selling their CDs by putting your music on it. They can also sell their CDs by putting a movie on it, right? They're just moving CDs and then label owns the CDs and like all these things, right? So people are using music as the marketing to sell something else. If everybody else is doing that, you should be doing the same thing, right? And that's where people aren't, or artists aren't willing to kind of like break that wall and get through that wall is like, you really have been looking at the art as the value all this time. And it is valuable, right? Just like having people's attention is valuable. Having a TV show is valuable, but the money has always gotten made from the commercials in between, right? Yeah. All right. You are the show. Now what commercials are happening in between that to monetize the attention that you brought? Yeah, now I agree with that because I think the general sentiment is the value is in the music. I think the value is in what happens once the people listen to the music. That's what the value really lies, right? Does this music inspire this, I don't know, this sync rep to think of all these shows you could fit in, right? That's another bad coming away. Does the music inspire, you know, we've talked before about how you would be surprised at who's in your fan base sometimes. Like it could be, you know, a 16 year old kid who loves you.  So that's what I think. I think the value is in what happens to the people after they listen to the music more than the music itself. More than the music? Because a great song that doesn't inspire people to take action to me is not as great as a non-great song that doesn't inspire people to take action. In my, to me, the second situation is the stronger situation. We say take action, what do you mean?  That doesn't, I mean, that's more than the song itself because even a great song, nobody attached is it to the artist or lifestyle. It's hard to monetize it. The great song that doesn't motivate people and move them to do something is not as great as the mediocre song that does move people to do things, you know what I'm saying? That to me is the greatest situation. I see it this way. I think the economic value for sure is based off of what can be drawn from that music, right? That's the raw material. And then people go mining, right? To capitalize in one way or another but they're gonna dig through that material. You know, the music itself, the value that it brings is more so like spiritual in nature. It's like you make this person feel like this, right? You impacted their emotions but the monetization around that economically has to be pulled out, all right? It has to be converted in some form or fashion. So yes, it does have value but the world we live in, you know, the way things are set up, the way people eat and things like that, you can't do that. You're not gonna get anything from that. So yes, it has value but in that value is very high. And that's what allows people to then sell some T-shirts because of it or come out to your show and sell an event because of your music. But think of it that way. The music is an attractive thing that people wanna experience and wanna feel. And again, but you still are not selling the music. You're marketing the event and you happen to be performing your music there, right? Cause it could be another person. People go to events all the time, right? The movie theaters. I've marketed this screen time that I have. The movie is there. I'm just trying to get new people to buy tickets. If you're thinking about it that way, I'm a movie theater and I'm gonna exist no matter what movie is coming on. I just want whatever movies are gonna bring people in. The movies are literally the marketing to buy my tickets to buy my popcorn. That is it. And that's really what you're doing and you're just monetizing in different ways. Yourself, bump the labels and all these other people if you are doing music and you have a show, right? You could have thrown any kind of event. You chose to bring them in with your music. You could have tried to bring them in with some IG models or something like that. You chose to draw people using your music. You yourself are using it as marketing and that's just the bridge of opportunity that Akon is saying, man. And I love that he said that. Like this is just a bridge to something else and everybody that we know got money, money who started the music industry. Bridge to something else. Something that's not the music industry. They bridging, they Akon talk about city. We talk about rock-a-wear and Sean John clothing brands. TV shows. TV shows. Yeah, if you look at the Will Smith and the Guelotifas. Like that's what the entertainment industry is, right? That's what the entertainment industry is. Art is, again, this thing that does have value, but that value has to be extracted into something that we can use in the world that we live in. Yeah, man, we talk about becoming an Akon. You know, like whether living or dead, which I will argue 95 to 99% of artists, if you ask them, wanna be Akonic in some way. I can't think of any examples of artists who became Akonic solely off of music and their business decisions having been factored into that equation. I can't think of one. Not one artist that we might consider Akonic that hasn't made great business decisions. I could be wrong. No, no, no. You can't say that, bro. Who? We got a lot of artists. Give me three, right now. Who didn't make great business decisions? Yeah. You got to go with the old days, right? Yeah, okay, well, all right.  Since being a business acumen artist kind of became a little more of a norm. So like I will argue near to late 90s and up. Since it wasn't all just record labels. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe Adele? I don't know if Adele does business stuff. She don't know what I can think of. But I feel like she got like a car wash or something on the back end. Yeah, I don't know, man. I don't know everybody's business and everything. But I feel like there's artists that people love that have made bad business decisions. But there's not love, but not necessarily culture I come across. Well, actually, I can't think of one, but I don't think I could say that right there. Yes, I cannot. Cause someone told me that it's in a- In private? Yeah, in private. Okay. Who's apparently broke? But I'll leave it at that. This is yet another clip from No Labels Necessary Podcast. I'm Brandon M. Shawn. I'm Cory. And we out. Peace.


Hello, everyone. Welcome. Yeah, I'm Carlos. I'm a software engineer at Red Hat. I work at the storage team at Red Hat more specifically in the Manila team and today I'm joining my fellow Red Header, Gauton Paterravi. We both work in the same team and we maintain the OpenStack Manila, as I said. And today we wanted to talk about a natively scalable CFFS gateways with OpenStack Manila and a couple of things we have been implementing over the course of the past months and releases in OpenStack. So these are our agenda for this talk. So first, about OpenStack Manila. You, at this point, might have known we have had a couple of formations to Manila over the course of the day and it can offer you self-service, post-ex, compliant shared file systems, which are elastic and secure. Elastic because you can grow and shrink them at any time and it should be instantaneous and secure because you can control the access to whomever you can control who can write data. You can control who can only read and do all of sorts of like ACL rules. In addition, Manila also provides like levels of multi-tenancy and servicing guarantees. So like cloud administrators are able to control quotas, share types and user control. It supports a variety of protocols as well like NFS, CIFS, CFFS and yeah, besides all of these functionalities, we already know about the NAS shared file systems. Manila also lets the users have lots of self-service features and lots of things you can do to interact with your shared file systems. So yeah, pre-complete and we have a lot of use cases and very large deployments using Manila. So here kind of an overview of results of surveys we conducted with both upstream for OpenStack and CIF communities. So there are some large deployments using Manila with CIFS for OpenStack. The last conducted survey was 2022 and we got about 84 responses that recorded the usage of OpenStack Manila. Almost like 42% of those were already using Manila for production and there was kind of 22% of those people of those deployments, still in the testing phase that they were trying to phase out to production. Yeah, and CIFS, being able to consume it directly via or through NFS, it was the preferred solution in Manila, as you can see. So that blue thing, like in the right-hand side graph, it's the usage of CIFS. That second survey was like 68 responses and it's basically CIFS was pretty much dominant in the usage of Manila. So let's go around on how we do native CIFS and CIFS through NFS in Manila. So for native CIFS, it's pretty much like CIFS volumes served as Manila shares. So the way we usually do the deployment or the way people usually would do that is we would have a storage provider network that extends the self-public network to the VM. So the VMs would be connected to the storage network and also to the public network. And with that, the VMs would be able to mount the shares and the clients would be able to consume the data. So it could be the VMs, it could be containers, you name it. The CIFS driver, it works well in an environment with trusted end users on a private cloud. I think there are a couple more things. So for CIFS via NFS, we can also, CIFS can also be served behind an NFS gateway, in this case, use NFS Ganesha, a user-based NFS server. So it's basically like the same concept we are serving, letting the users create sub-volumes in CIFS and we are letting them like mount it and consume it. And there is how do we do, like, how do we control the high availability or everything like that for the NFS servers? Well, that's basically how we do that. So we would have base maker controlling like they are having access and managing the instances we have for NFS Ganesha. So in this case, for example, we have an example of like three Ganesha instances and base maker would have like a virtual IP. So and there would be, it would work in an active passive mode. So there would be one instance active and whenever, like, if it went down, then base maker would elect the next one and it would like try to make that the active one and if it would go on and on and on. And then, yeah, the clients would be consuming that. It should be something that the base maker is already doing. So now, over to Gautam to talk about some changes with him. Thank you. As you can see, there are quite a lot of limitations, as you can tell already. So if you're familiar with using CIFS, you expect a certain degree of performance from CIFS.  And besides the loss of performance is also about the scale, right? So you would be able to serve a lot more clients if you were, if you were accessing CIFS directly, as opposed to putting them all behind maybe one or a few of these NFS gateways. So the performance hit is something that is a harder problem to solve. But the scale hit was something that was an easier achievable problem that we were able to work with the CIF community in a whole, really, the CIFS folks, folks who work on CIFADM and also the NFS Ganesha communities. So there's work that happened in the last couple of cycles that I'd like to show you what's changing. In this model, and this is OpenStack hidden in this picture behind, but those are OpenStack users that are consuming NFS shares connected through Pacemaker, which is controlling the uptime and the availability of the NFS server.  That's how you would picture this. And to orchestrate the NFS exports, all of this is done automatically with the help of CIFS driver in Manila. So the driver is capable of creating the access rules that are required. So if you are an end user, you would tell Manila what is the client that's going to end up mounting. Your CIFS volume, what's the IP address, et cetera. And we, as in the Manila driver would would go create an export record for you in the NFS parlance. And there is stuff happening in the background such that the NFS server can recover from any sort of outages by preserving these exports, not FM really are using any other storage. I mean, there is a storage system behind this. So why not just use CIFS objects to persist those exports. So all of that is happening in the background and you don't need to worry about it. But that's how the Ganesha recovery is happening every time Pacemaker detects that there's a failure in one of these nodes. It's able to bring up another NFS server elsewhere and consume those exports because those exports are configured on rados also. And all of this is being done by the Manila driver hidden away from what the users are known to end users have a familiar interface saying, I have my share, I have my IP address, give me access. That's it. As I told you, one of the things is the whole aspect that this doesn't scale very well. The other thing is the aspect that Manila and Ganesha need to be in sync. And in order to send a export configuration to Ganesha, we would use Ganesha's D bus API. And that kind of started putting us into a, you know, a locked architecture of sorts. So if you were to run this in the best way possible, you would want the NFS server and the Manila share manager process to coexist so that they could share a D bus socket. Because if you're trying to do anything else, like D bus over SSH or something, things would start getting weird. Pretty soon and not be as reliable. And I'm an engineer. I'm used to telling you that, you know, this is a bad solution, but this works very well in like a lot of production scenarios, by the way. It is being used at scale as well. But I would like for the scale to be better as other users would. And that's why we were working on the next approach, which is clustering Ganesha. So NFS Ganesha is pretty old at this point. And it's been widely used. And a lot of the storage solutions that we're interfacing with NFS Ganesha have been using it in a clustered manner. Ceph wasn't, or rather there were users in the wild, probably you noticed them on the Ceph users list that were trying to do this, but not a lot of first party things going on. Not a lot of, you know, community supported architectures. And that's what's changing. So with, I will talk to Ceph Adam, because that's what we've been using mostly in open stack deployments that Red Hat supports, but a very equivalent thing is happening with ODF as well. And you may be aware of it. So what's happening here is Ceph Adam today is able to create a NFS service for you. And it is able to scale the NFS service. And you can have active, active instances directly living as Ceph Damon's would on your Ceph cluster. And it's able to put these active, active instances of the NFS server behind a well known ingress sort of service. It is called the Ceph ingress service. What the Ceph ingress service is, is a combination of HA proxy and keep alive D.  So all of these three servers are presumably on different Ceph nodes. And there is an HA proxy and a keep alive D that's running in front of it. And the HA proxy is managing the load balancing aspect so that you can add more scale to these NFS requests and keep alive D is moving the VIP as it detects any failures. So one other aspect of this is if you're used to Manila, you're used to client restrictions through IP addresses. So as I told you, a client would come into Manila and say, I mean, here's my share, give me access to this particular VM and this particular IP address. Now off the bat, this wouldn't work because we are terminating all the connections at this ingress service. And what Ganesha is seeing is traffic coming from the ingress. So the NFS Ganesha folks have now implemented support for a proxy protocol, which is kind of confusing to say HA proxy proxy protocol. But what it's essentially doing is it's able to pass the source IP address in a header that Ganesha can parse and understand that traffic is coming through this ingress. But it is meant for a client which has a different IP address. And so your client restrictions saying this is the one I need to have access would actually work because you're looking at the source IP address in the header rather than what's coming as part of the ingress traffic. So that's a huge number of small things that had to change to get that happening. And with the scale, like with any other self-tamen, you're able to scale it up and scale it down. And as you're scaling it up and down, we are using primitives within NFS Ganesha, within the NFS protocol, as well as mechanisms of persisting the recovery pieces of this onto RGW. So that onto self objects that we're able to recover the state, the locks, the NFS locks and so on. So I can go into way more detail. Maybe that's not too interesting as to how these Ganesha servers recover from failures and stuff like that. But maybe that's for another talk. For now, though, I mean all of this innovation happened in like the Ceph Reef release that is yet to be released. And it's not complete yet. We're still testing this stuff and we know there are some corner cases and some bugs. But we are targeting for this to be available in the Ceph Reef release. And as far as NFS Ganesha goes, it's available with NFS Ganesha version 5, which shipped like a couple of months ago. And it's meant to be used with the Ceph Reef release to be able to use client restrictions with this HHA proxy protocol enabled and so on. So if you're looking at this today and you get your hands on Reef, you should be able to do a Ceph NFS cluster create like this. And specify where you want your NFS cluster to be created. Provide a virtual IP address that you would want to use as the front end. And specify the ingress mode to be HHA proxy protocol. You can look at the help for this command. Ceph Adam is capable of, you know, building the moon for you. So there are a lot more other options that are there. This is how we would have our users use this and set up their NFS solution. And what this does is it creates this sort of a spec. And you can see the spec has some things about placement. Where to put things, how many of these services to run? What is the front end? What is the back end and all of that stuff? Usually you don't need to worry about it unless you're debugging or troubleshooting something. So time for a demo if I can get the... And so here we're just logging into the Ceph cluster and printing out the version. As I was telling you, this is the latest, greatest thing. So we built this demo yesterday. And this is using the RC that Josh was telling you shipped like last week. I think. Oh, let me check. Probably not unless I can do that. Nope. It's adjusting to the... Okay. I'm sorry. I can't. I guess it does think it's at 300. If I can quickly do that. It's an HTML. Sorry about that. Demo fails. Even if we record. And now I can't get out of this. Oh, yeah. Okay. It's hidden. You got a screen. I'm sorry. But I will try to make this available, like give you the slides so you can actually click through this and probably even try this. So that's what my Ceph Arc LS gives me. I can read it out for you. It has an ingress.nfs.cffs which has a front end IP and a back end, you know, section as well. So it's front-ending with that IP address and port 2049. So it's pretending to be the NFS server, but it's actually the HAProxy service. And there's an NFS service that is running on that host with the thing. It's serving NFS on 1249. Doesn't matter. Because all we're pretending is the client doesn't need to use a special port. They're familiar with it. Their clients are configured to use 2049 so they can continue to use NFS this standard way. And I'm also going to show you some part of the thing because in an earlier presentation I said triple O is going away or something like that and that usually causes panic. So the Red Hat installer is changing and it's going to start deploying the OpenStack control plan on OpenShift and Kubernetes. So that's what this looks like. So I'm running the Manila service with that new installer. And I've configured two back ends, one that serves CFFS over NFS and another that serves CFFS over CFFS, but it's talking to the same CF cluster. A very common use case with Manila users. And that's what the spec file looks like. As I'm looking at the back end configuration, that's just the container image of the service that I'm using. The share back end information looks very familiar for folks that have probably configured CFFS with Manila. One useful thing over there is that it's now looking at a CFFS NFS cluster ID. I'm sorry I confusingly called it CFFS. Everything we just named it CFFS. So you can name it what you want, but it's basically a way that the back end driver is identifying the NFS cluster within the CF cluster. So it knows which NFS cluster you're talking about. And on my other back end, I'm consuming native CFFS. Simpler configuration, I'm just serving the native CFFS protocol. So there are two Manila share manager services that will eventually come up is what the idea is. And this is the demo environment a little bit. So we're distributing the CF secrets to Manila so that it's able to access the CF cluster. And we're also going to be using those two bare metal nodes as clients at the end. Guess I didn't speed up this part. So we're just showing you that that's usually what you would have seen is configured within Manila share to access the CF cluster. You need a key ring. You need the CF.conf. That's the Manila services that have come up. And that's the pools information that Manila knows about. And I'm going to create a share type to be able to use CF. I also threw in a net app over there if people use it together. But otherwise, I'm just creating a share, a regular process. So what that's going to give you is it's going to create a CFFS sub volume and export that over NFS. And you'll be able to grab the export location and the IP address over there should be familiar because that's the front end IP of the HAProxy service that we have deployed, the Cefengress service. So we give access to the VM that we know. And we go ahead and try to mount it and write some data, regular stuff. And let's just go ahead and list the files. Everything looks great. So this is just a regular workflow of the client restrictions working as expected with even if you're talking to the HAProxy service, you're actually getting NFS out of it. And if you're trying to mount this on another VM which has no access, and that's the user experience you're going to get, which is that you don't have access to it. We don't know what that file or directory is. So let's go ahead and give access. And we're going to be able to mount it as well. So this is the part that would not work without the HAProxy, proxy protocol implementation that the NFS, Kineshah folks have to work on. So we believe for sure that these primitives that are implemented are way more extensible and are usable even outside of the OpenStackManla context. So this is a big change for Ceph and for NFS, Kineshah. And we expect, as Federico was telling you, IBM is looking to productize NFS piece. So I think this is one of the foundational pieces for that and things. So I'm glad we were able to use and reuse these things. So again, all credit to the Ceph team and the NFS, Kineshah team for having figured all this out though. All right. So that's it for my demo. Let me get back to my slides if I can. So you'll see more of this and some documentation written around this pretty soon. Everything is bleeding edge. So what do we plan to do to migrate people? Because we're also in the business of supporting people that have been using a solution for quite a while and pretty successfully. So one of the problems we have and would be an amazing ask for the Ceph community would be there is no easy way to say Ceph, Adam, adopt my NFS server. It doesn't exist. And so we'd have to invent different strategies of how we'd have to move our NFS clients over. So one thing that we are thinking of with the Red Hat OpenStack product is allow for an extended decommissioning period for the existing NFS server. And what this would do is allow a cloud service provider perhaps or an operator to tell their clients that eventually this NFS server will be shut down a week, 10 days, whatever, like your own logic to that even six months or whatever. So by that time, please also start scaling down your workloads, changing your stuff, consume the same data that you have. It's not getting deleted. It's just coming from a different place to start consuming it from the new place. A standard deprecation that is probably used in... A standard deprecation approach is probably used in most data centers for stuff like this. So how would we do that? Well, Manila will handle that part. So the Manila driver, when it starts up and you tell it, hey, there's a new CFNFS cluster, you can say this is where my old cluster was. And Manila will be able to represent both export locations to its users and tell people which one's the preferred path. So if somebody is listing their exports through Manila, they'll know what to mount and what not to, what's going away basically. So it's sort of like helping that UX alongside the operator's communication. Another thing that we are working on and we're still actively testing this and it may be possible is to be able to live migrate them or even migrate the NFS consumers with the minimal disruption, if anything. And what that would involve is for us to cluster these NFS services, the NFS service that originated with Seth Adam and the NFS service that if you're using OpenStack with... that had OpenStack, it is the pacemaker-managed NFS service on your OpenStack control of nodes. So we'd be able to cluster them and then start tearing down the old NFS servers and do a WIP migration. And this is stuff that's still in flux. And one of the reasons we think this may not work in all situations is that you may not have the network flexibility for doing this sort of a WIP migration. So what we're essentially doing is moving the NFS service from OpenStack to Seth. So we are not sure if your NFS network, your pre-existing NFS network, is that easily accessible to the Seth cluster because you had architected your network in a different way and so on. So you will have access to the previous solution, but this is something that we are interested to attempt because we have customers that are never going to unmount their NFS shares and remount it because you're trying to move them off of their old NFS server and so on. So we'll see if this works. Maybe we'll update you in a different opportunity. But if you're looking at what that solution would look like, that's what this slide's providing. So one other thing that I should have mentioned is that when you're moving off this NFS servers, this is also stuff that we did in the Manila driver. So you don't need to do anything of moving exports and all of that stuff. Just tell Manila where the new NFS cluster is and this FFS driver will take care of replaying all the exports to this new place and mirroring all of that and things like that. So that's a UX we expect to work and we'll be testing that thoroughly. Awesome. That's actually all I had and I think we have a couple of minutes for questions. No questions. Amazing. So, oh, sorry, yeah. Yeah. So, I mean... Oh, I see. Okay. I think the CEF community certainly has done more per-scale tests that might involve you. Sorry. Then we have, because placing Manila in the picture is not interesting, right? Because Manila is mostly doing all the management operations. So it's mostly CEF that's, you know, depending on where you're running it, how you're running it, how you're tuning it, that might impact the performance. What we've done a little bit is comparing this usual canned Red Hat OSP deployment to try to stress test the control plane, try to break the performance a little bit that way, or even try to compare and see whether we're seeing the same patterns that probably the CEF folks are, which is how does native CFFS compare with NFS, compare that with bare metal versus container workloads versus VM workloads and so on, and try to find out if there are, you know, improvements that we can suggest and things in the network path and things like that. But, no, we've not compared CEF with vendor storage or something like that in that regard. Yeah, no problem. Is fencing in use? Is fencing in use? Yeah, yeah, sure. So is fencing in use in our current solution is one thing I could talk to, which is that we're using PaceMaker and we do test fencing. So if you wanted to try to do a planned failover, decommission a node, et cetera, you could even actually test it with initiating a fencing operation. That's how we are queuing the product itself. But yes, that's another PaceMaker primitive that we are using, that in case a node failure is detected, it is actually fenced off. It's not allowed to rejoin the cluster automatically and stuff like that. All right. Thanks, everyone. Thank you.