rchangeably, which means that you're begging the question that the cause is actually a thinking and willful agent such as God. I think that's what they're getting at. Yeah, I understand what you're saying. But I'm saying is what I'm saying, or like if you look at listen to like William Lee and Craig, that he goes on to say, okay, so if there's a first cause, right? Okay, and you're saying, okay, the necessary being, right, this being or this cause has to be outside of time and space and the world and the materialism and stuff like that. You're getting, you're logically deducing these things because they have to be outside of the universe, basically. Does that make sense? And then when you get, when you, when you further analyze it, you are getting to the concept of a God. So, so I'm saying is like, you can call put whatever word is you want, but you are getting to the Islamic concept of God. Well, you're saying, Mark looks like he's got a thought, but did you want to I'll leave the final word. That's, that's fine. I don't know. That's all right. I just saw the face. So I thought maybe there was something going on behind the scenes there. So Robin Webster says membership chat. This is, she says team read or they say team read, not sure. So they're just saying that they're just coming out to give you support there, Mark. So thanks Robin. Thank you. ESA Kabir says a good job all peace and blessings to all my buds. Thank you, ESA. We super appreciate ESA here on modern day debate and me personally as well. I wasn't having a great evening the other night and had a great chat with ESA. I definitely was prompt to let them know that it was just what the doctor ordered. You know, I felt a lot better. ESA is a great listener, a great communicator. So yeah, appreciate you, buddy. Joshua Jamie says, once again, to you who's saying I'm sure anyone would have predicted we would be making tall buildings in the future. It's cool. Exactly. Yeah, he needs to answer the question. Who did? This is, it's just funny. This is my whole point. So when I say like, like, I want people to like reflect on all these things, like, and the culminate was the collection of all the everything we have available, right? And when we're not just saying it's just this one prediction, okay, we're saying there's like a book. It's literally about like 2000 or something predictions. I remember the exact number, but it's quite a lot. It was in the thousands. And the point is, is like, it's not just this one prediction. And then every time there's a prediction that comes up, well, the atheist person will be hyper skeptical. And all of a sudden, well, it's not that great, actually, you know, oh, this other one, it's not that great. Oh, this one's not that great. Well, like at that point, you're just proving in a way that you don't, it's, it's, you don't want to engage in a way. You're just saying like, it's not that great. But like, are you making these predictions? Like, are you making 2000 claims? And they're all like, or some large amount of claims, and they're all being proven true? Like the, and are you claiming to be a prophet of God? Like, did you, do you have all this recorded evidence of your actions? Like, there's a difference between you and a random person. Okay, one person making one claim, and it being correct. Yeah, I'm not going to say he's a prophet, but a person making all these claims, doing all these actions, the whole life of the prophet Muhammad, is that is the point. It's like, it's a, what's the word? I can't say it today for some reason, but sometimes I can come cumulative. Mark, call me out. Yeah. Cumulative. Thank you. Cumulative. Everybody all cumulative. Yeah, thank you. I, yeah, Jacques Leher to Issa. Did you want to carry on? Go ahead. Yeah, so it doesn't matter how many claims you make, they have to be specific, they have to be very, very accurate. It doesn't really matter. I just want to share my screen just for one second, and just share this. Is this, is this a tall building? That is a tall building. That is a tall building. Guess what? It was built in 593. Well, I mean, there isn't exactly a building in the sense of the prophecy that the project said. Yeah, I'll just, I'll just finish what I'm, what I'm saying, that you don't know, your interpretation is that tall building means this thing. And this is what we find a lot in prophecy, like Nostradamus. We find people who later on go back and instead of saying, Hey, here is the evidence. What can, what does the evidence lead to? Which is, we don't need to know what he meant by tall buildings. He could have meant a minaret and that isn't attached to another building. That's just a tall building, or it could have meant this or, you know, he could have guessed, we don't know. Instead of being able to go back and check that you get modern things and you say, Hey, this vague statement, that bits, because you want it to fit, it is confirmation bias. And this is where apologetics is exactly the opposite of scientific inquiry, because apologetics is having your conclusion and then fitting the evidence to the conclusion. What science does, and the science makes testable predictions by the way you're asking for predictions, science makes them all the time. I'll bring up the prediction of Tectolic in evolution. They knew where they would find this animal and what layer of the strata they would actually find it in. That's a really good prediction. Plus what it looked like, that's insanely good. Like it's not tall buildings, it will have these features and it will be found exactly here. Now, that procedure is using evidence and then following the evidence to where it leads, not apologetics, where you have the conclusion, you're fitting the evidence to your conclusion. Dusty, do you want to add anything? No, that was well said. When you read anything, you have to, basically what you're saying is that I'm going to be hyper skeptical and believe that, oh, these people are just reading into it. But then when you read other texts, you're not this hyper skeptical. So if I write something to you, or even when we're having a dialogue right now, Mark, there's some ability in language or basically you have to assume in a sense what I mean. So again, why are you, if you want to go follow down that train, why are you not questioning everything?  Jordan Peterson. Well, what is God? What is this? What is that? Why are you doing that then? You can say that with anything then at that point. Because when we all look at it, the vast majority of people will say, oh, that is a true prophecy. You could believe it's not like a great thing, but it is a true prophecy to most the average person. Hey, I do have a quick question, Hussain, because you quoted the Hadiths a couple of times. Correct me if I'm wrong. We're talking like multiple thousands of Hadiths and was it an upstanding Muslim man of integrity? Those are the ones that they chose. No, women had Hadiths too. So like Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her, also delivered a lot of Hadiths. But basically, there's a science of Hadith and it follows like mass translation.  And then, for example, if like all the Suhaba, like the biggest companions all agreed that he said that, then that's a consensus that he said that because they're all there. But I can appreciate, oh, go ahead, see, keep going. No, no, no, even the Quran has that too. So for example, like people who are, what's the word? Hafiz. Yeah, Hafiz. They have a certificate and they can directly trace where they've learned their Quran from all the way back to Muhammad. So it means they've memorized the Quran and they were taught the Quran by their teacher and their teacher and their teacher and their teacher. So there's a record of all this. But that, I guess that that was one of my concerns is I can appreciate oral tradition. But, you know, when you're talking about manuscripts that were compiled, like upwards of two centuries after the Prophet existed, like some of the we didn't know it's within the first century, it was within the first century. Yeah, and supposedly they found manuscripts of the Quran that is dated to Muhammad's lifetime. It's supposedly in I think it's a museum or something. Bami Ham. Bami Ham, every ministry. Yeah, yeah. All right.  Sorry. Yeah. What about the prophecies that didn't come true? Like, for instance, that the Antichrist would appear seven months after the conquest of Constantinople? Yeah, was Islam a end of the world belief system? It was. No, he said no one knows the hour. So there's Hadiths that show that Muhammad peace be upon him didn't know the hour. So for example, he knew signs, certain signs of the day of judgment. And there was in his lifetime certain things that could have possibly matched the hour. And he said basically that he doesn't know. And when they investigated it, they confirmed that it's not the hour. So I'm not sure about that one where they said, like, I've never heard that one to be honest, Mark. Yeah, I haven't heard of that. It is Sonan Abu Dawood book 37 number 4281. And what was it, sir? What? Sonan Abu Dawood. I can I can put it in chat if you want. Yeah. Sonan Abu Dawood. Sorry. What book was it? Book 37 number 4281. Oh, you put it in the chat there. Sonan Abu Dawood. I don't want to say. Yeah, I'm terribly sorry. My Arabic is terrible.  This is just a person committing a punishment. Yeah, do you have like an exact youth number or anything like that? Yeah. Yeah. Because this hadith here says about a prescribed punishment for men. It has nothing to do with the hour. I put the thing in chat. I'm not sure why. Oh, 4281. Okay. Yeah, 4281. Yeah. It doesn't even give a grade on this. And I can't even find anything on that. Give you guys a chance to check that out. Smash that like button if you haven't already. Well, everybody has a moment to look up. Well, what we're discussing right now, which is we're looking up a verse. So don't mind us, everybody. We're going to take a moment. Is it the one that said the beings would survive at the end of 100 years? No. Okay. I'm just having a little look over what I can find. Can you probably share it on the screen because I couldn't. I couldn't. I don't think I found it hard because I don't think I found it hard enough that you would swim to it. It says something entirely different. Oops, I might have shared the wrong screen. Oh, no, I've got the right one. So I'll just highlight. The prophet, peace be upon them said the state flourishing that of Jerusalem will be when Yisraib is in Eulans and the ruined state of Yisraib will be that when the great wall comes the outbreak of the great wall be at the contest conquest of Chakrotsin and the conquest of Constantinople when the Dijal or the Antichrist comes force. He the prophet struck his thine shoulder with his hand and said this is as true as you are here or you are sitting. Yeah. So what I'm reading is there's like a testier on it and it's basically saying that this hasn't happened yet because this is regarding the end times and it's saying that there'll be there's another hadith that indicates so that the Roman army half the Al-Roman ally, the Roman army, basically the West will ally with the Muslim world and then the common enemy will be the Eastern army of the Rome. So basically it's talking about the end times and like a global conflict between East and West which hasn't happened yet. Also this hadith says that the Yathri would be in ruin. So this is different to Medina. So Medina is not in ruin. So no, it's not happening yet. Yeah. All right. I think we can carry on from there if you want to stop the screen share but do appreciate that and going down the rabbit hole a little bit on that one. So definitely we appreciate our panel for you know entertaining that in an extra sense.  Mark is right. You didn't answer. Okay. So again, this is like a fallacy. We're not saying that God is just one attribute. So even Dusty admitted that this is more of a problem for Christians who describe God as only all loving and all merciful or whatever. We're like God is also justice. God is also compassion. God is also wisdom. God has 99 attributes that we know of. There could be even more within the Islamic paradigm. So again, this isn't more of a problem within Christianity and other religions versus Islam. So we're not saying that God is just love. God is just mercy. God is just compassion. All right. What was the We can carry on. But did you have a question? Sorry. Who's saying Oh, no, I thought I know Muslim apologize when I say something. Oh, sorry. Go ahead.  All right. Let's carry on then. Don Kedik says I love modern day debate. Well, just a shout out to and a reminder of mega mind. We love you to random citizen. All right. I had to watch that with the kids the other day. So it's actually good. It's definitely watchable. If you have to watch something, it's not too bad, right? No, I mean, yeah, if you got to watch something with your kids, it's definitely pretty good. But yeah, we love you to random citizen. Let's carry on. Chirag ND says if striving for good is the objective, why does it matter which religion you belong to? Why Islam? All religions strive for good. Yeah, I mean, that's not something I would disagree with. I mean, in some religions, well, I mean, there's some like pagan religions, which obviously I wouldn't say strives for good when they talk about like sacrifice. I mean, the the pagans before Muhammad, Sahel, or Salem thought it was okay to sacrifice people. Amazon tribes sacrifice children. I mean, there's plenty of pagan religions which are inherently like demonic, actually, they aren't striving for good. So that would definitely like go against what they think. And then obviously, like my problem with other say, quote unquote, beliefs that claim to be monotheistic is I'm arguing that they're not actually monotheistic, that like Judaism and Christianity aren't monotheistic. I mean, you're talking about three, three persons in one and all this stuff that doesn't make sense and that God is all merciful, but somehow needs to sacrifice his only son. But by the way, there's a contradiction in the Bible because they say that there's other begotten sons. But then it says that it is the he's the only begotten son. I mean, like that clearly falls on its face. Judaism says that, you know, all God is the Creator. But then actually, like you can trick God by like throwing a chicken around and putting your sins in a chicken, they can either supposed to sacrifice on the Sabbath, but they can put around Israel and New York like a rope and like deceive God somehow. And like also God again only cares about Jewish people and like under Talmudic Judaism, like we have no souls, not all Jews believe this, by the way. I'm just saying like these things don't and you can wrestle against God and beat God. You can debate God and beat God. I mean, that's not God. Like this isn't God. Gotcha. Can I add on to that? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So I guess this goes back to the definition of good. Is child sacrifice good? That's the question because there are some pagan mystic religions in the past who found child sacrifice. So I guess it goes back to where what or what is the meaning of good and where does it come from? The source of of the justification of good. Any thoughts on the other side? No, all right. Let me get back into our super chats here. I'm just sharing this link out and getting ready to talk about like I say we have a live event coming up here in Texas. So I'm going to talk about that a little bit after the stream. So everybody hang out. Chirag ND says if striving for good is the objective. Oh, sorry. We already read that one, but he did ask another one. Chirag ND asks Paul the octopus got 12 at a 14 predictions right 85% accuracy. Maybe that's the gospel of Paul could be a new religion. 85% accuracy is not convincing enough. He has to be 100%. Any thoughts from the rest of our panel? No, all right. Sorry, I missed that. Sorry, I was just writing something. I missed that. What was it? He's saying that one of the some guy got 85% predictions right out of it. He was actually an octopus. Oh, yeah. Sorry. I thought he said that. I thought he said Paul. Yeah, so it's kind of the whole idea is that unlikely things can happen, right? Like you can ascribe meaning to these things. It's called synchronicity. Basically, there was a girl in London who let a balloon go with their name on a red balloon and it actually landed in the yard of someone with exactly the same name and was the same age kind of thing. This is just pure random charts. It is deterministic because it's just obeying laws of physics, but we ascribe meaning to these probabilities that may be higher than normal. An octopus could possibly get 85% accuracy on predictions just through sheer charts. So is that balloon example like that when it be considered like miraculous to you? Not in like the prophetic tradition, but in like the probability of that happening is really statistically low. So it's like almost miraculous, right? You don't think that's miraculous? No, I don't think it's miraculous. I think it's highly improbable, right? That's what I would use. I term it highly improbable, but highly improbable things have actually happened. Like, for instance, a game has been played with a perfect hand in bridge, right? The entire set to lay down the entire hand in bridge, the perfect hand. The chances of that makes it almost impossible to happen. It shouldn't have happened because we have not played enough hands of bridge to make it so, but it did happen. Yeah. Have you guys ever seen the show? I think it's called I Survived. Have you guys ever seen that? No, but that probably sounds like an interesting watch. Yeah, it's definitely an interesting watch and it's pretty much story after story of these people that got so close to death and like for all intents and purposes should have died, but then by some, you know, what some people would call miraculous. Yeah, they were able to pull through it. We would be quick to say, you know, oh, that's a miracle, but still at the end of the day, it happened in the natural world. There's a natural reason for it. You know, we don't have a reason to appeal to the supernatural until it proves itself, but yeah. So, for example, I heard a story of like my friend, he said his friend was lost in the forest, but for some reason he intuitively knew to go a certain direction, right? And then he went that direction and he found his friend. How do you describe that under a materialist or natural world? It's just happened chance, right? Is that what you're going to say? Basically? Well, I mean, he was, wait, tell me the story again. Sorry. So basically like a guy that I know, he was lost in the forest with his friends or his friends got lost, excuse me. And then he just intuitively for some reason, like he didn't really contemplate this. He just was like, I need to go this way basically, right? That's how he describes it. And then he went that way and they all found his friend and like brought him back to camp kind of thing. So like, what explains those like, that's just synchronicity or what is it? What did Mark say? Synchronicity. Yeah, synchronicity. And then like, and what just, what explains synchronicity? I mean, I'm sorry, I see nothing special about that. I mean, they're both in the woods, they're both trying to find each other, you know, I mean, eventually, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, interesting story for sure, but I don't see it being miraculous. Okay. How many people are being lost in the woods and not found somebody a lot? You know, we can't just go, well, this one instance happened to work out. So that must be a miracle. Why can't it just be charged? So maybe, maybe he intuitively knew where to go. Like, like I said, intuition is good for making snap decisions.  And you can be right. You can be right. But it's not a good way to find out if you are right. It's not reliable. Like using rationality is reliable. It will get you the best answer because it's a reliable way to find the truth. Intuition can be right.  Just to throw Ryan back under the bus. Yeah, totally. And you know, I could be absolutely right about that. But that's not a good way to evaluate whether that is true or not. What I should do is, you know, talk to Ryan and, you know, get to know him and then evaluate rationally whether he is a good person or not. Interesting. Okay. I'll have to look into that, Mark, later, the synchronicity and how that would be. Synchronicity. Synchronize. In ATC's worldview, how do they explain that? I want to look that up. Well, it's random events lining up. So one looks related to another, basically. They synchronize. But these random events, there's no real bigger cause behind it all. They're just events that happen to have lined up. I think there's probably an aspect of patternicity as well there too, right, Mark? Like, we're pre-programmed to look for these things. So then we noticed them more. Who did the programming, Dusty? Oh boy, that's a loaded question. Evolution did the programming. Evolution did. Let us carry on. I have a couple of fun things to go over. So during the course of our debate, I had a couple polls that we had put up. So don't mind this. This is just the live audience that had tuned in for the debate and participated in the polls and the percentages that we have going forward. So is Islam true? It was our first poll. 76% voted no. 12% said I'm here to figure it out. And 11% said yes. So that was 201 votes at that time. I had a second poll that we put up, which was, who is your favorite speaker on our panel tonight? We had 12% for Dusty, 7% for the Muslim Apologist, 11% for Hussein, and Mark Reid, 68% tuned in here at 148 votes. So, you know, make that what you will. Thank you so much. Mark won. Mark won my envelope. Look, I don't like people saying you won a debate or whatever. Like people, look, everybody wins if we give ideas and put ideas up against one another and discuss things and have debates. You know, everybody wins. And like I said, this is just for fun. These are the people that were hanging out at the time that participate in these types of polls. So, you know, don't take this to heart anybody. I appreciate it. But winning a popularity contest doesn't mean you're right. Very great.  Now this, I'm basically saying, no, I had to hit this. What's next? Most people voted for that. You know, frustrated that we've had so many polls. The 30% said I won't, I'm too busy slurping soy. 19 said, no, I will after this. And the other 4% said, I cap, I will ask a super chat. So thank you to everybody who asked super chats. We got two more to go. Those polls are always fun. And you know, we will, I'll maybe ask another poll when we go over our events. So Squid Superhunk asks, the plural of mundane prediction isn't prophecy. It seems like they're coming right at you. So any thoughts on that? Hussain Muslim Apologist? Yeah, again, it just goes back to the chronic quote where basically their heart is blind to faith. So they, if you want to basically be a robot and like diminish like the miraculous list of life, the miraculous that we're alive, the fact that there's like all this beauty in the world, the fact that, you know, all these prophets came throughout history where they've taught the same message, the fact that, you know, all human beings for the most part, it appears into intuitively believe in a God and a creator. If you want to ignore all this mountain of evidence and just say, yep, it's a random chance, we're just meaningless spaced dust that happened to evolve. And everything's deterministic, but somehow, you know, these religious people actually are the ones with bad morals, yada, yada, yada. Yeah, like, I don't, I don't even want what you want from me then. So you just don't want to believe and it's fine.  All right. Yeah, so, okay, can I add to that? Oh, sure. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, so when we say prophecies, we don't mean a mundane, you know, series of events like, okay, tomorrow morning, I'm going to have coffee. And then when I have my coffee, I'm going to drive to work. And then at work, I'm going to do, you know, task A to task C. And then in the evening, I'm going to come back and sleep. So when we say prophecy, yes, to be something world shaking, something significant that actually affects the community and life in general. So it's not just a matter of prediction, random prediction, like who's going to win, you know, the football match tomorrow between Liverpool and Alta Lanza, for example. Oh, sorry, I think that's my son playing. He's on his PlayStation. So yeah, so yeah, so anyway, so yeah, so there's actually a whole, I actually have a whole book of of Hadif, which lists out the prophecies of the prophet and they are graded and a large majority of them as she comes to pass. Yeah, I believe that as a Muslim, I believe that. There's stuff like usury will be everywhere.  And to be like, yeah, it's just all mundane stuff, like, like the point is, is like you're get your there's so many prophecies and they're all true. So like the, to not believe like these are clear signs and the Quran talks about that, like we have you not seen like the clear signs of God basically. So all right, let's carry on and I smile. I do have something to add. It's been brought to my attention since we are discussing rally first off. I don't know what heart is blind to faith means my heart blood plumps blood around my body. That's what it does. It's not something special. So unless you're using as a metaphor for my mind, I don't know what you're talking about meaningless space dust, we've got married meaningful lives that doesn't just because the constituted parts were spaced us doesn't mean we're not meaningful. But when they're talking about morality, someone's actually in my, my chat is brought to my attention. Muslim apologists that you have a criminal record based around children abuse of children. Is that true? No, I don't. No, I don't. It's a lie. It's a lie. It's a lie that has been going around since my arrest in 2024. It's an alleged crime, but he has already been dropped and there's no case against me. I was never charged caught. Yeah, let's just not even touch that with a 10 foot pole. No. So let us carry on. We got one more chat. Shane the pain and we're going to try to get as much out of this as we can.  I'm sorry, can you repeat that one more time? So we have this one here. Shane the pain says if so if cancer for children is good and just a test, when and if the child dies would death be the reward? Yeah, so I mentioned that. So like when children die, they're essentially considered martyrs. They go essentially straight to heaven. So it is in a way it can be seen as a mercy to them. So like within the Islamic paradigm. So that's why you see people in Palestine like still faithful to God and they've repeatedly you can watch videos of them saying like my son or daughter was martyred and I will join them in heaven. We'll never leave this land. Things like that. They're talking about that. So like it's literally answered on the daily. He just turned on the news. Yes, so can I add on to that? Sure thing. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, so it's about it's about expectations of the year after justice in life and trials and tribulations and how we look at it positively. Which again, I need to point out, I don't see this in Buddhism. So yeah, I think it's some kind of justice and we always we always start to look at the good side of things. Okay, this actually reminds me of the what was the name of the British comedy truth. You know that life is always on the good side of life. I don't know the name of the song. Yeah. It is hard to make you out because there's a lot of noise in the background. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm going to ask my son to mute this. It's all good. I understand the pain. I've got two young ones and the amount of times that I'm like. So yeah, yeah. Sorry. I remember the least. There's always on the good side of life. So yeah, Brian, Brian, I don't remember the name of the film. Yeah, that's right. So that is how actually Islam taught us. You know the song at the end of it. So yeah, so I always look at this positively and yeah, Islam teaches us to look at it positively and like the trials and sufferings of the children in Palestine. I think several days ago, a family of a Palestinian politician were murdered and what did the politician say in response? He said they are fine. They are in Jannah now and this is a test for us. So this is how we look at things or problems that exist in our lives. All right. And also Shane, the pain carried on to say great debate, great job to all four debaters. Keep up the stellar moderation, Ryan. Thank you, Shane, the pain for your Super Chat. We appreciate you. Joshua Jamie with our last Super Chat. This is going to be the last one of the night, everybody. So if you put one in and I don't read it, I'm sorry. Just stop typing now. The fact that it happened on its own is far more profound than a God did it. Any thoughts on the panel? I think that's for us. Yeah, I'm still waiting for the proof.  I'm waiting for the proof that it just happened on its own. That's something ever can just happen on its own. Everything we see points to a cause and effect. So still waiting, guys. Maybe the ball should be on Atheist's court to just prove that something could just happen on its own. Well, I mean, a lot of things happen on their own. There's no person rolling a boulder down the hill. Sometimes the physics that determines it to happen, I don't know what happened on its own even means because there's always a causal chain that we're looking at. And you're saying, hey, there's no causal change for God. It's a necessary state of being. That could just be the universe that's a necessary state of being. It's easily counted. But this whole idea that, yeah, Dusty, do you want to chime in here? Oh, boy. I mean, not really. I don't care to take upon the burden of proof of that. I mean, I'm not an astrophysicist. So I have no reason to doubt what they propose when it comes to the nature of the cosmos. And many of them certainly don't postulate God. Again, I think it's we're hasty to jump to certain conclusions. And you say, you know, I haven't seen the evidence of anything coming from nothing. Okay, well, again, we still haven't seen any evidence of God. So until someone can postulate that, I will rely on the scientific method for for my up. Dusty, that's, that's evident. That is evidence. Like when you say, okay, and in no, so, okay, for example, like, do you believe in the, the, the gravity, gravity, right? So I've never seen gravity work. So therefore, I believe gravity works. Or it's true. Does that make sense? Right. You don't question gravity testable question gravity. I've never seen something come from nothing. And therefore, things have to have creators. So therefore, God exists. It's the same thought process. I'm being perfectly rational. I think you guys are being irrational. Does that make sense? When have we seen a mind without a brain? Okay. When have we seen a mind without a brain? Yeah, but you're, you're taking the thing that you're making the conclusion of, you know, you're basically saying, Hey, we've never seen gravity, which we have, we can demonstrate gravity really easily here. I just demonstrated gravity.  And as those, those brains get more complex, the minds get more complex.  So if you're using your own standard of logic, if you've never, if you can't produce another mind without a brain, then there's no reason to think that God exists either. Yeah, I guess I'm confused as to why that's not a God of the gaps argument.  Like I just, I just don't see, I just don't see that. Because I'm not just saying it's individually that like I've, I've tried to say like a couple, basically like, and I don't want to go too deep into it, but basically I'm saying that it's not, it's like prophecy. It's the fact that humans intuitively believe this. It's the fact that revelation talks about the Quran, which is, we believe is from God talks about how human beings they may believe in God. We have studies proving this like, or supernatural, whatever, if Mark wants to disagree and it doesn't count towards a God. But we're saying like, okay, it counts to supernatural, which is a God, right? We're saying that rationally, that you can, you can have arguments for God. And so I'm saying it's all these things combined. It's not just a God of the gaps. Like I'm not, it would be a straw man of my position to say, Oh, I don't know God. It's, it's, it's all these things combined that point me towards God. All right, well, I think it's more. Okay, sorry. I was going to say, I think it would be a good idea to move into one minute closers if, if Hussein you're still in a hurry. I've been smiling from time to time because you said you were in a hurry, but you, yeah, I know, I know. It's just, it's been fun. But yeah, yeah, let me. No worries. Here, we're just going to, we're going to turn it over to our screen share just because some things changed. So I'm going to fix that up. No worries, everybody. And what I'm going to do is we're going to go around our panel and do one minute closers to get our speakers moved out. And then we're going to talk about our upcoming live event in Texas. It's going to be a lot of fun. So let's see. First on the panel, I'd say, yeah, we go in reverse order. That's the way I always do. It drives everybody not so dusty one minute on the floor. It's all yours. Yeah. So first of all, again, thank you to everybody that was here this evening to take part in this discussion. This is again, this was my first time being on the channel and taking part. So I've seen a lot of conversations, especially on this topic, very heated very quickly. And I think that everybody for the most part kept a pretty good level head and was able to have a civil discussion. And honestly, when we're talking about these topics, like that's what's most important. You know, like as I said before, there's 8 billion people on the planet and 1.7 of them believe the same way that Hussain and the Muslim apologists do. So it's really important that if it's not true, we continue to question. And I don't mean that just about you guys either. I mean, not about all religion. Like you're right, this is a long held belief of mankind, but is it a rational belief of mankind? That is one thing that we won't get to until we continue to question. Yeah, again, I believe I agree with you. I think if you step outside of the dogmatic beliefs and you look at the belief in the divine as a whole, you can see that general process and how we got to where we are today. Yeah, I really think that it's a byproduct of mankind's developing psyche at a time whenever humans had abundance of creativity but lacked the chemical understanding of the world around them. But thank you for everybody for letting me be here. No worries. Well, we appreciate you and that was great. And we're going to hand it over to you, Mark, for your one minute closing. Thank you so much and thank you for moderating. I want to give a big thank you to my partner. I don't think I thanked in the introduction, but fantastic debate there, Dusty. Really good to see. Appreciate it. So yeah, thanks to my interlocutors again for participating in this debate. And I do apologize for some apologies. I was given some information. It may have been wrong. So I really do apologize for if I misconstrued that it was of concern to me. But you know, I trust that you didn't correct me. Yeah, my apologies. Okay. Okay. So really what we're looking for is reliable ways to tell whether something is true or not. What we're talking about is methodology. How do we tell if something is true? Now, the problem here is where we usually lean a lot on this falsability criteria. We usually have a methodology of investigation testing, things like that. The problem with Islam is it cuts you off from doing any of that. It basically says, hey, there are these arguments we have, and there's these feelings we have, and there's these things that we want to be true. And that's enough for sort of believing it, but it's not. They haven't really addressed any of the problems and they haven't really given any evidence whatsoever that is reliable and rigorous that we can investigate. Thank you. No worries. Well, thank you. And we're going to hand it over to Muslim Apologist one minute on the floor. They just went off camera. Muslim Apologist, are you there? Yeah, I'm still here. All right, excellent. One minute on the floor for you. Yeah. So, yeah, thank you everyone for coming here. Thank you especially to my friend who said who I think did most of the talking. I was just basically in the shadows. I mean, there wasn't much to say about it, but it was honestly speaking, I don't really feel into Kala more philosophically. I'm more into real life incidences or real life experiences that we can relate to. So, yeah, anyways, my conclusion is that I guess everything that we have discussed here actually goes back to the issue of the existence of God. And if this can actually be conclusively proven and I know for a fact that this will always be a contentious topic. But if everyone agrees, if everyone could actually agree that God exists, then everything else will fall into place and we could actually go into the other aspects of what we actually discussed. Let's just finish it. All right. Well, thank you so much, Muslim Apologist, for being here. And Hussein, over to you last minute on the floor. Yeah, so I think what, thank you for everyone here, by the way, and thank you for hosting it. I think that what I've tried to do at least is provide a combination of various topics to show basically Islam is not only in line with reason. We believe in the necessary being our religion is most conducive to what we philosophically describe as the necessary being. It's just also innately in tune with humanity's fitra or pre innate disposition. So I think that Islam is the truth because of those things. And I did believe I tried to show that atheism actually is the antithesis to being human in a sense. It is like a rejection of being human and because the conclusions that a lot of atheists and obviously again, most of them aren't going to, Dusty and Mark made it disagree with this, but we perceive inherently that we have free that we have morality that we make choices and that our life has meaning and purpose. And most people perceive and understand innately that there's a God and atheists are rejecting this and therefore I believe are not in tune with humanity at all. So. All right. Well, thanks to everybody on our panel. Big round of virtual applause to everybody who participated in the discussion tonight. We appreciate also you in the live chat. So thank you to all of you as well for all your engagements and also to our moderators who keep our live chat friendly. Mark Reed Dusty, the Muslim Apologist who's saying we'll see you again on modern day debate. I'm going to get our speakers moved on out and then I'm going to come back and we're going to talk about our upcoming event.  Thank you again. I just want to mention one thing. There's an after show on my channel after if you want to keep the discussion going. Can I join? Sure, everyone's welcome. Sorry, what did you say? Oh, I just meant send me the link to that. Oh, it's in the chat. It's in the chat. It's in the chat. I'll relink it right now. I'm going to link up. Yeah, for sure. If you want to send me your link as well, Mark, if everybody's going to be hanging out over there, then we can also put that into our store, but he gets linked over there after I'm done making the announcements. So thank you again, everybody and we'll be right back. Into a space where they can eat comfortably and then they're going to be having their own aftershows and it's going to be a lot of fun. I'm sure so make sure that you tune in and check those out. In the meantime, we've gotten some great news that we're going to be participating with a live event that is coming up here in Texas. It's going to be on April 27th and that is going to be a Saturday. So hopefully lots of you are available to tune in here at Modern Day Debate for that live event. But if you are in the area, we have tickets available. They're 20% off when you use our promo code MDD, of course, stands for Modern Day Debate.  So if you're going to be in well, let's just check it out. We'll go through here. I pulled some things up earlier. There we go. So let's just pull it on over and I'm just going to share my other screen here like this. Perfect. Booyah. Easy peasy. So I'm going to look over here. So as you can see, we got this one here. It's going to be at the Vulcan Gas Company 418E6 Street, Austin, Texas. So if you're in the area and you are able to get there on that day, there's going to be all these events here. So I'm just going to read them off the list. I was checking them out while the debate was happening, but I of course can't remember off my heart. So if you're listening on podcast, you'll be able to hear this. So from 520 to 540, there's going to be live music from Crossbuckers with Ian Crossland and Toby Turner. My apologies in advance if I announce any of this wrong. At 540, there's going to be a welcome announcement from Shane Cashman followed by 545 from Paul Stone. At 6 o'clock PM, we're going to hear from the Drinking Bros podcast. I'd love to pour a pint with somebody from a podcast called the Drinking Bros podcast. Come on now. That'd be fun. I actually have not checked this out. So you know, if you're in the live chat, I'm not sure what these folks are associated with. I have to admit so. But honestly, that just sounds fun. So yeah, we got Dray de Mattio, Don Holloway, Ross Patterson and Shane Cashman who are participating with the Drinking Bros podcast. So that's going to be part of the live event there. I'll just cinch that up a little bit. Let's see here down 7 o'clock PM.  Alright, we're getting some familiar names here. We got Stephen Destiny, Bonnell, and Jimmy Dore. Alec Stein is going to be coming out for that one. Ian Crossland, Luke Rudolski, and Bill Autman. And if I didn't mention earlier, if you forgot, James is going to be participating as a production in getting this casted to Modern Day Debate live so that you all can participate and watch these debates happening as they're going on. And we participate all your support in getting these functions happening. And a big shout out to James, of course, for getting this. We got what 17 days odd to go. Oh no, the day has crossed over for me. So 16 days for me. I'm in Nova Scotia. So you know, just a little bit ahead of everybody. 8pm. We got is America becoming a communist country?  So Texas Lindsay and then Craig Pasta, Jardula. I missed the comma there. No worries, everybody. So hopefully you're following along. Let me know. I'm going to put up a last poll for the few people that are hanging out here. Appreciate you guys. Let's see. There it is. I'd saved this. This is the last poll that I'm going to put up. So did you check out our live event yet? Are you following along? Are you booked up? Are you able to make it? You know, let us know in the live chat. We really appreciate you know, figuring out what's going on. I did check out, by the way, what the parking situation is because that could be important to some people. So there's not available parking at the venue per se, but they do have VIP parking. So you might want to look into that as you're booking your tickets. So when I scroll down here, let's see. Actually, no, that's not about the parking. I looked into that separately. The other part was about the seating. So you can get seating. You just want to make sure that you get there early. As for parking, there is supposedly VIP parking behind, but I'm sure that'll be just for the guests. So you're going to want to make sure that you're staying in a place where you can catch a cab or, well, let's just see what else do they recommend here. A cab, a rideshare, drop-off pickup, pickup location. So they want that at the corner of Ninth and Red River. So look at that. See, I've got everything ready. Just been going at it, right? So I got the Google Maps here, but yeah, this is where it is, the Vulcan Gas Company. So here we can have fun with our Google Maps here. Give us the Street View. There we go. So this is Sixth Street. No, no, I don't want to move it. Oh, we're right on the car that does the biz. And let's see, there's pizzeria. It should be like a graded place. Ah, I lost it. Darn. See, I clicked on my own screen. Bijou. Ah, I can't find it. I had it up earlier, everybody. My apologies. But either way, let's carry on with the events that we're going to be hosting here. So at 9 o'clock, the election integrity debate. Stephen, Destiny Bennell, Hannah Claire, Brimlow, Ashon Fitzgerald, Kerry Smith, and then Craig Pasta. Jardula are going to be debating the election integrity debate. So that's going to be a lot of fun, I think, to be able to host here on Modern Databate and reshare. And then for a little bit of reprieve, a little bit of let's just relax and exhale for a few minutes here. We have stand-up comedy from Loren Chen. And also that's going to be a 15 to 20 minute set. It looks like because at 10 20, we have stand-up comedy from Jimmy Dore. I'm not sure how long that's going to be going on for, but make sure you book your tickets. So let's see here, we got a couple other things. 5 p.m., we're going to have the doors open and then the show starts. So once again, based on the seating situation, I'd recommend getting there early if you want to get seating. No backpacks or other large bags allowed in the venue, no animals allowed in the venue, no weapons allowed in the venue, and also have fun. It's mandatory. If you don't have fun, we'll then get the... See, I got my parental filter on. See, that's great. So right there, that's where you're going to want to apply your promo code.  I won't be able to make it unfortunately, but I'll be holding down the fort here in the meantime everybody. So yeah, this is a downtown Austin, Texas club. There was another part that I had seen here that I thought might be important. Oh yeah, I guess if you just want to get like really freaking wasted, you know, you can only buy two drinks per individual at the point of purchase. So I mean, you know, make sure you got more than one person there that's gonna be purchasing drinks. That's not important. Well, let's see. Yeah, I think that's about it. Honestly, I think we'll close it down, and hopefully whoever can make it will see you there, and whoever's going to be hanging out here at Modern Day Debate will also see you. So let us know in the live chat where you're hanging out, where you're going to be when this live event is happening. If you're going to be in Texas, James is going to be helping out at the event live, and he's going to be recording it there so we can hang out here at Modern Day Debate and see that happening. So make sure that you hit the notification bell for those upcoming events. It's only going to be, like I say, a little over two weeks where this is going to be happening. So a little short notice, but we appreciate everybody who hangs out in the live chat, supports the channel, participates in the super chats, and we will see you next time for more juicy debates. In the meantime, cheers. Have a great night, everyone.


So, here are some examples of my corn braids. You can see they're hanging up here, just on some nails, and see these flowers here. Maya, flower game's getting a little bit better, start out not that great. But basically this is a technique that I learned from a Haudenosaunee creator, learned how to braid the corn, and then what they do is they create these flowers with some of the corn husk to distinguish between braids that are being saved for food and ones that are being saved for seed. And so, this one is one that's just for food. You can see that they're pretty short, narrow cobs, not much on them, not always super full. That one's dropping a bunch of kernels that I gotta sweep up off the floor. Here's one that I'm saving for seed. You see that the cobs are bigger, fuller, nicer looking. Here's one of these ones. It's the double cob. The secondary cob is pretty small, but it still has that double cob trait. And then these are larger, fuller cobs of my four. You can kind of make these of any size that you want. You just have to be mindful that wherever you're hanging them, it's not more weight than can be supported. Yeah, I've got a lot more corn that I've got a braid. My flowers are getting better and better, so the next couple of braids of seed corn that I make should be even better than this. And basically, obviously I'm not going to need to plant this much corn. I will basically save enough for two or three years to make sure that if I have a bad year, I've got plenty to last me. But I'll probably take a third or so of each cob from the middle. And I believe it was Haudenosaunee that taught that technique too.  And that's what you plant and then the rest of the cob you eat. So most of this, even though it's my seed cobs, most of it's still going to be eaten. But this is where I'm taking seed from first before I eat what's left.


Okay, some good news out of Chile. So here's the story. You know, Chile took the sharp turn to the left in two things. One in a referendum to rewrite its constitution and basically a mandate to rewrite the constitution a year or two ago and then by electing a radically leftist Marxist president in spite of the massive success that market reforms have led to in Chile, they elected this radical left president. But then, you know, there was an attempt to pass, there was an attempt to confirm a super-leftist constitution, an assembly that would write a super-leftist constitution. And that in a referendum in Chile, and one of the best things to happen in Latin America in a very long time, that was defeated thoroughly by a, you know, by a, what do you call it, by referendum in Chile and so again that happened. Now the push to rewrite the constitution continued because the fact is that, you know, that had been, that had been, that was voted on and determined that it needs a new constitution. One second, I'm just, something here. Oh yeah. So anyway, yesterday, Chile elected a right-wing council to draft a new constitution in spite of the fact that they elected a very leftist president not that long ago. As a consequence, the stock market in Chile went up with anticipation that the new council that's going to draft this constitution is basically draft a constitution that's going to maintain, maybe even make stronger, the country's market-based economic model. Now this was a big blow to the president, Gabriel Boric. And again, you know, I think voters in Chile really scared off by the left-wing constitutional assembly that came into being and that was voted down last year. You know, Chile is in a recession. It's expected to contract 1% this year. You know, it has not gone well as this leftist president has tried to roll back the market programs in Chile. Of course, previous presidents in Chile have not exactly fought for market reforms. So it's going to be interesting to see, you know, this conservative, this constitutional council is, I guess, 50 people or 51 people where they have 34 conservatives, 16 are left-wing and one indigenous delegate. And you know, it's going to be interesting to see the right-wing here has a significant majority.  And it's going to be really interesting. Here's an opportunity for conservatives to the right to actually do the right thing. You know, we'll see. We'll see what happens. We'll see what happens, you know, what this will actually look like and what will actually be proposed. My guess is they'll probably design something very similar to what Chile already has. And then the question is, will they focus on economic liberty? Will they focus on expanding the market economy? Or will they focus on social issues and will they put into the constitution issues related to kind of social programs, abortion, immigration, and other issues like that? So, you know, there's a real effort, there's a real effort to legalize abortion and, you know, we will see if the conservatives try to reverse that in this constitutional process. So it'll be interesting. Are the conservatives interested in economic freedom? Are conservatives interested in diminishing social freedoms and expanding the world of religion in the state? That is of course the question all over the world, and it's a question that Chileans are going to have to deal with here in the near future. But it's good news in a sense that we've escaped the possibility of a horrible leftist constitution which looked like the fate of Chile just about a year ago. Thank you for listening or watching the Iran Book Show. If you'd like to support the show, we make it as easy as possible for you to trade with me. You get value from listening, you get value from watching. Show your appreciation. You can do that by going to iranbookshow.com slash support, by going to Patreon, subscribe star, locals, and just making an appropriate contribution on any one of those, any one of those channels. Also, if you'd like to see the Iran Book Show grow, please consider sharing our content and of course subscribe. Press that little bell button right down there on YouTube so that you get an announcement when we go live. Those of you who are already subscribers and those of you who are already supporters of the show, thank you. I very much appreciate it.


Just to summarize what you said, because we went through a lot of things, one of the things that you could compare from back in the Soviet era was that health care was always within reach, and you never really had to worry about the cost. And that's one thing. So poly clinic, as I understand it's a primary care clinic. Is that right. Yeah, so, so that's what the first unit sort of of care. The first unit. Yeah, so we equated with primary care system. So that's what's been missing now since the post Soviet era right the lack of primary care and that leads to increased hospitalizations because a lot of neglected health issues. They're still under utilizing hospital hospitals compared to other averages in the region. So it's not just preventive care it's just for profit care that's the problem. It's the healthcare system set up to be based on who can pay you know so that the only sort of the demand for healthcare to meet that supply that so if you don't have so you don't have the ability to pay. If you don't have the ability to also navigate this incredibly complex world of healthcare that's set up by lots of fraudulent get rich quick schemes kind of place is also a problem. So before you had a guide to help you understand healthcare, your poly clinic. Now that's over, you're no longer tied to a neighborhood poly clinic you can choose your primary care now they called a family doctor which is like American system.  And there's also no monopoly regulations like the people who have the insurance also or close to the insurance companies in reality that own the pharmacies and then they own the hospitals and the primary care. So, and I know this because you can actually go and read the reports where they say this themselves that.  Right. So, so it's really, it's really insane really the like how this even continues to go on is mind blowing. So, a person doesn't know anything, they will go, they will be told they need to get these and these things.  And this right you know brings up their cost. And that's what the government was paying but now they're only paying partially and if you make a certain amount of makeup they're not paying. You're supposed to get private insurance so it's a really unsustainable model altogether. No one is healthy because of this this literally shows in every possible way that people are much less healthy now than they were before. Interesting. And so you mentioned before about the nurses. Is there anything more you could tell us about the nurses like we want to hear the voice of Georgia nurses. One of the ways to show how this profit system doesn't work is to show how there's been an incredible decline in nurses. So, instead of having the reverse of having 34 nurses per doctor, you have 34 doctors per nurse.  PHM knows that nurses are, you know, the building block of good healthcare, right, without not just nurses but healthcare workers, like having lots of doctors does not make the system automatically better healthcare like doesn't give you like better outcomes. You really need the support staff so the invisible what they call like invisible labor in this sense because nobody sees this a lot is the support staff. So doctor comes in for like maybe two minutes, you know, but the rest of it is being done by the support healthcare support, including nurses and orderlies and so on janitors. Because the way since breakdown Soviet Union nurses as a profession degraded. Nobody cares about nurses anymore. So if you go to a completely profit system, even if they didn't sell off the hospitals at first in the 90s, the hospitals were like a marketplace. They're called public, but they're all private doctors.  They're just many of them in one area. So it's actually not a public hospital. It's bizarre like you go to a market, you know, have different sellers under one roof that could be owned by anybody. So this is what in the 90s it looked like. So you, you go this place and like I've read I've read some like horrific reports of like for foreign like investigators the right for some of some of the health reforms, being like outrageous people just like dying on the floor like you don't have money they're like we don't care. So nobody wants to be a nurse because you pay the doctor directly. And someone's like, Oh, I'm going to be a doctor, not a nurse, because that way I can make money. Nurse works for a doctor. So if you get so the doctor gets paid like say per patient, you know per service fee and so on. The nurse gets a tiny part of that. So the demand for doctors medical doctor degree increases because people won't have be able to have money and you know profession where you're not the lowest level you know market workers make more than nurses here you know like grocery store workers make more than nurses completely degraded profession incredible amount of stress and responsibility, and yet absolutely, you know, no, no support no sustainability no money nothing. People leave the nursing profession, and just in general lab lab workers technicians they all leave they all want to be doctors. So you have this incredible rise in doctors and a drop in nurses. And the doctors also do it because then they can also try to go abroad and like, you know, to Germany or what wherever whatever nurses also can and they actually are being recruited as well. So the nurse becomes more invisible so I argue that when like regarding women's work and so the support work post Soviet or pro market development has made what is considered more feminized work like nursing or taking care care work has hidden it more degraded it more, and also because of more outpatient and also not going at all to the doctor has increased a workload for women at home. So then, you know, women have to take care of their mothers or fathers or husbands or whoever, because the hospital won't, or they can't afford to put them in in other care. So, this is for me privatization of health care, though they say this is more efficient actually has set back the visibility of women's work. And nurses are actually even even better condition because we start getting paid nothing but it's still like shows that like they actually do work, because women who do all the care work don't get paid at all. Like who takes care of that rest at home for five days or whatever when the doctor tells you, that's, that's women who take care of them. And so they are they've become even more vulnerable, especially in conditions of no labor code or very weakening labor code, especially in 90s and 2000s, where you don't have time off medically from work, you do now, but it's still like just one and like strengthening as far as labor code goes. So a woman would have to miss work and not get paid or be afraid of even losing her job to take care of her family members. And as somebody who's a housework like a informal worker in a market or so, or a domestic worker like, you know, informal as well. Or just a regular house, housewife will be doing extra work without any kind of compensation at all. So for nursing, I think it's been one of the worst things that happened to the nursing profession is that so they have like professionalized. So they make doctors more important in the sense. They've moved them up from being just workers under the Soviet Union to now sort of middle class. But they actually have degraded nurses, leaving all the other workers behind. Yeah. Understood. So, thanks for sharing that. What, what can we look forward to, you know, in the near future with regard to healthcare in Georgia. Any positive news? Looking really bad. They just one of our I consider one of our victories after so much of our of our unfortunately, we couldn't do it like strikes or anything but a lot of our worker advocacy and work that we have done over the years, especially during pandemic, the government just issued a minimum wage for for nurses, which is not a lot but it's still pretty much better like people's like income, especially in the regions like tripled and quadrupled. We're getting such low pay so it's not like it's not great but it's like it's like $200 or something 250 300 something like that, but like, but they were making like less than 100 so for a lot of people, especially nurses in the regions were the most neglected and abused. They really felt the increase. But it's really bad, mostly it's nurses are trained here. And then they will leave, most of them will leave even the either they will leave leave for another country to be a nurse there, or they will leave the profession because it's so horrible, and choose something else. And so, it's a very vulnerable position for a profession and this minimum wage is not enough to reverse the trends. We need to strengthen to make sure that Georgia, especially because we were just on like some kind of list, I don't know if it's like the red list of like countries where you shouldn't recruit from but I think we're like close to that. Yeah, yeah, I don't think we should have any recruitment I think nurses should be given, you know, so much money, I think to actually start fixing our health care that should be one of the first steps we take. And it's just to read, you know, nationalize a lot of these private places I would totally get rid of the private sector, or at least limited to a certain level. Before even making it like free for everybody as far as like the price for the insurance because we saw what just happened. Definitely nationalization increase in wages and also just coordination it's a chaotic system it's straight up like a market where everyone's just trying to make money as much as possible knowing that the population is really sick. It's a model that once people sick, lots of elderly lots of sick people, of course of praying, we have one of the highest the Syrian rates, Syrian section, like, it's like 45% or something.  Even they come to those conclusions now that where you don't, there's no justification for that kind of high cesarean rates, just no justification. You have like, needless enter intervention, I've seen it too they scared my sister told her that it was dangerous to give vaginal birth, completely twist her head and she says she was she was worried that we're going to kill her baby and hurt her baby, that C section was the best thing for the child. I could not even talk her out of it because she's like the experts are telling me, they've been told how to get. You still have to like make it official whiteness C section, you know, I told her to go get her eyes checked to make sure that you can justify to make sure that her eyes were in bad shape that like, this like vaginal birth would blind her and just like whole scheme of how to make sure she had a C section. And of course C sections are much, much more expensive, and also much more convenient for the doctor you schedule it you go in two seconds and you're out. So, yeah, of course, you know the side effects of having only profit care is having, you know, really needless interventions C section and of course we see section we know that's dangerous could be even more dangerous especially to get subsequent ones. It hinders, or it can actually hinder breastfeeding bonding, you have to recover from childbirth and, you know, major surgery, and it's really hard on your body it's absolutely not necessary. But it also probably relates back to you know the lack of health workers to take care of normal birth. If there were more doctors and nurses, probably if one doctor has to go then you know there's another doctor in the house we can look after the woman so they don't have to force a C section. It's you know, like a chicken and egg question, which is which it just goes around and around. So, I guess like you just said before it's with the experience of the nurses in Georgia, the minimum wage was a good progress but it's not enough. It's not just about the money, you need to improve the whole system whole health system to actually encourage them otherwise it would just give them more resources to leave. Yeah. So, thank you. Thank you very much so both for sharing your experience and the experience of the health workers in Georgia. With close the interview here and give our regards from phm to all the health workers in Georgia. I will. Thank you. Bye.