We have a block guys fear of confrontation. Oh Yeah, I don't even like hearing about it I don't know if it's so much fear as it is just something that I don't like I guess you don't like tension I don't like tension. I don't like to get in people's faces. I don't like, you know You know, like on social media like I Obvious I you know, I don't use social media as much as I used to but even back in the day I never discussed politics or religion or anything remotely controversial and I mean, there's a pragmatic reason for that because you don't want to alienate half your audience Yeah, but more more than that. I just didn't like, you know, when they find out you're a public I just didn't like confrontation Is and I have friends. I have a lot of friends that just thrive on your gun is in the safe Yeah, when we're done here, I'm gonna give you back your gun. You go back. No problem Walk back into the streets You've gone out with his gun out Who does that? Okay. Yeah.  I don't like people not liking me You know, I just you know, I'd rather just kind of a lot like what, you know, if you if you take my parking spotted at a Trader Joe's I'll just maybe roll my eyes. That's about as much as I'll do if you're in a horrible mood Yeah, you know, I I deal with anger and I don't know if it's a hell probably not a healthy way But I I never yell at people Unless it's like as a joke and we're both in on the joke, right But I've never I don't think I've ever yelled at somebody in anger. What if I get like really angry? I'll get very quiet. I'll just like let it eat me up on the inside. Fantastic. It's great. What a policy I'm a Yeller and I Regret every single one of them. Mm-hmm. Like I thought I grew up on one of ten kids Irish Catholic Yelling was so much yelling. Yeah, so I thought that that's the way to do it Yeah, like so I thought that's the way you do it and It's not Turns out it is I There must be some happy medium between Do you communicate your issue with people? Well, yeah, and sometimes it's really effective like I Heard on another a podcast an interview with Dan butts who's an old friend of mine and he's also the Art director for a lot of my music videos and a number of years ago he did something on a set where he really messed something up badly to the point where we had to fix it and post at considerable expense and And I Don't remember harnesses wages. Yeah. No, no, no, but I remember I talked him on the phone After the and he remembers this a lot better than I do But he says that I called him up and and I said something to the effect of I'm not angry Dan. I'm just Very disappointed and it was traumatic for him He was like I've never heard I'll lose it like that. Yeah The most I've ever been like dressed down by Al and and were you Angry and did you let it eat you or did you just do you get through it quickly?  Uh-huh.  This will be my revenge But again, it it doesn't work. Do you think I should like revisit this with him? I think years old. There's a lot of meat left on that. Oh, okay.   They now they've gone back to MDM Okay, they've gone like past Because everything's science and psychology now everything's healing and I had I was thinking about my multiple enemies my enemy's list and Gotta keep that list. Okay. Yeah, I have to Your as you call it the disappointment list And I had no problem forgiving them, right and then a couple days later. I was like I had When I was flooded with oxytocin serotonin adobe mean it was very easy for me to forgive people, right? And then I thought about what I'm like most of the time and what I realized is I don't have enough good chemicals so most of my the chemicals in my brain are cortisol and Adrenaline so that's why I'm yelling. That's why I'm petty. That's why and I'm like, you need the right drugs That's the whole thing. I know I know so but I've been I've been on SSRI's I've been on everything but I'm saying I realized what I consider my personality is not even my personality. It's just the Chemicals on hand. So who are you really? There's no way of knowing. I was hoping you could help If you're just joining us feel that onion 1-800 No, but so I'm realizing that what I consider my personality or the parts of myself I don't I really don't especially like I Did I don't even need to engage with them? So the last week? I've just been not engaging with I Feel like I have a kitchen in my brain and it's giving it's serving mercury Sandwiches, and I'm like, I'm just not gonna eat it. Wow. Yeah, that's frightening me now. Great But I it's are you are you dangerous should I not I'd sound sociopathic or something But it's I'm just not indulging the part of myself that I've acid in my brain that wants to eat people Yeah, now it's now I've made a sci-fi. Yeah, now I'm at a sci-fi I That it just wants to destroy people and criticize and enemies and you do this and Villify and I and then eventually believe it or not turns on myself I'm Trying to stop and I I support you. Thank you so much.  He left he left in the middle of the thing.  Okay, cuz they're all sort of the same thing which is avoiding confrontation That's what I'm curious about with All of this stuff is it never occurred to me that you avoided confrontation because when you come to the comedy store You now enter. I don't know how you enter You've got a system worked out where you're dealing with almost no one And it's unbelievable. I don't know if you have a rope That you climb up the side of the building go on the roof repelled out It's you're not and what I I thought you were just trying to avoid weirdos Which may be part of it, but you're also trying to avoid confrontation generally necessarily at the comedy store confrontation, it's more like getting I Just want to go and do my thing and leave. That's all I want to do I don't necessarily want to sit in the back and there's been moments where I'm like Oh, let me hang out a little bit here and just talk to a few guys and you regret it every time And then I get in the car No, but it's I Felt like, you know the comedy store a great place I felt like I did a lot of that hanging out. Yeah, you know, yeah for years Yeah, I hang out there, but the way I got it set up now. I just slip and slip out Sometimes I don't even know some someone like if you were there I did sometimes I don't know you're there until I'm running to my car. Yeah, and I'll like have you're like, hey You got to get a bodyguard So the confrontation avoidance, that's what I realized. I mean a lot of stand-up is Our rebuttal to with to a situation that we didn't like And now that I see it on your list.  Yeah, yeah, which is it was under my nose the whole time But so you're very passive in life Yeah, I don't rock the boat like if I got a problem with somebody I Don't address the problem. I just like They pass away to me that I couldn't my head. I have a funeral We don't want to talk to eulogy. What do you have? I Have a hard time expressing myself when I Feel that there's been a wrong And I don't how's that for work that can't be great work It's not good. That's another thing. I'm working on trying to be a little bit more. Oh the problem is I'm when I am Honest and open it's a little bit abrupt and aggressive And I don't know how to like like Sometimes sugarcoat the the message. I often do it with humor. I Try and I try and like if I try to weave it in with a little with a little humor So it doesn't come off as as abrupt Well, I think a great plan is is to never say anything and then when it does come out It's got so much force That you really heard a lot of people That's the best way to approach problems. Okay, and then you resent them for you not having said anything Because they somehow made you feel like they that you weren't allowed to say anything even though they never said they didn't know what was happening How many funerals you have in a year? Well, that's what's funny is I had no I'm like I think Sebastian likes me but there's a point But I also do recognize the party that I'm like, oh that guy could have buried me Years ago and I have no I would have never known Do people ever say do you got a problem with me and you then will address it or you just go? What about work stuff You got you know when you're on those tour that you got 50 people at least Yeah, I mean and do you have somebody that you'll sort of whisper and then they'll take care of it for you Yeah, I have I have somebody that I could rely on for you know fixing problems that I see But you know, I mean It's not so much in the everyday minutiae of work that I have a problem addressing things. It's more like larger Personality issues with how do you do that with Lana? How do you how do you figure that out with her? It's just you know with the people close to me. I don't have a problem with it We got it with the people that you know, I have maybe a business relationship with or a Friend that's not so close to me a family member. That's not so right to me. I tend to Draw draw away not not address certain problems. It's just better that way No, I feel like you see like a guy that would You have a like for example, I'm gonna I'm gonna give you an example of how I Interpret a few things that you have said great. I love it. This is perfect. I'm sure I've offended you three times There are three moments where I yeah, go ahead When you said earlier when I walked in in the movie, right and you said I'm gonna tell you what somebody said, right and I'm gonna tell you who it is Yeah, oh that's Sebastian walking in I Interpreted that is there was nobody That was you Say saying that okay Now that right no great, but that It could be right could be wrong. Yeah.  I'm not saying we have a bad relationship Yeah, I like you you like me, but sometimes you've had me on life support. You've had me on You called funeral homes check for availabilities. I'm sure well, I'm just saying sometimes Sometimes my filter Right whether you mean it or not, right? Oh, yes, we'll let misinterpret the yes. Well, that's another comedy thing where we Take the worst possible interpretation of things by the way, sometimes we're right 70% of the time I would say we were right somebody did say it and I I didn't I will I'll tell you after I just don't want to say No, no, I don't care who it was But what I'm saying is sometimes I misconstrued right things just because I'm filtering it a completely different way than You're a monster and you see everybody else But does that make you is that give you like Stomach pains, you know, I mean are you just put it at you just file it away. No, I just like it goes in When you said that I thought that no, okay, okay And then I just I just let it go and we move on to the kids. Yeah, but like I was actually thinking about saying that in the moment Yeah, I go what was that you you know, but then I'm like, yeah I'll you know, there's like I got like a conversation going on in my head half at a time Of course, I'm still listening and I'm still present But there's like a there's like a internal it's like an editing When you edit video and there's like the video and then there's the over graphics and then there's the sound Yeah, we all got I think most human beings have at least two or three tracks. We probably got six or seven I'm overthinking that I should have just I should have just said that and be done with it And then we move on but like I'll I'll think it I won't say it I'll press it and then and then you'll resent me for it Yeah He I come on his podcast and he tells me I'm not active But that's you're not I mean I look I get it. I'm doing the same thing over here. All right guy wears a black turtleneck Um Number one not good at confrontation hate it I will say I've found that this is a through line with a lot of comedians in that the job description is kind of We get in these situations. We are furious, but we don't say anything and then we take it out in the comedy Yeah, I talked I take it out and I'm podcasting and in comedy and I also like to talk people talk about people behind their bags But when it comes to one-on-one, I'm a coward Yes, like I heard you said this about me. No, I didn't here's the recording that no No, no, you know, you get and you seem to get very Korean. Yeah, I do. Yeah, yeah, because I get when I get scared My accent comes out. Yeah, like like airy spears. Mm-hmm.  Mm-hmm Because he you know, we had some experiences together, right?  He'd heard about it. He had saved all of it From where from this random podcast. He had evidence So he came up to a young man.  I go. No, I love you He's like listen and he said let's go to a clip.  Do the hire an editor. Do you think or he did it himself? I don't know but it made him that mad That would make me mad.  I do talk about Aries. I don't I don't wait wait wait. Listen, listen, listen, listen You just said you talked about me. Listen. Okay.  Okay, my friend. All right. I tell stories Okay, about you Me neil brandon or the proverbial neil brandon proverbial, right? So I've said things about you A lot of it wasn't true But in my mind it was and we've worked it out over the time But my point is is that's another problem of mine is is I have this Assumption that people Like even in Conversations, I I'll take, you know subtext or whatever and I and I'll you know, I mean you write fanfiction About people you write science fiction about interactions you've had Yeah, because growing up as a as a trauma kid, right?  So I would I would always have to read my dad You know what I mean? Yeah, of course, right and And that just kind of spilled out into like other social things where you're doing it every interaction is There's hostility. There's right potential for violence Exactly or when I walk into a restaurant like people if I'm on a date, they're like, what are you doing?  I like you do a sweep. I do a sweep. Yeah And I don't know why I do it. I mean, I know why but it's like it's safety You want a clear space to do your nuclear?  I don't I literally oh when a shooting Yeah, the movie theater. Yeah. Yeah, it's been like a while. But yeah, there was a color Yeah, of course you're the kid at orange hair. Yeah, no, I'm not the kid. I'm the victims I get it. I know you when I walk into a movie theater. I do it. I go because of aurora. I go There's exit exit. I can go up this stairs these stairs and I I have it planned out before the movie starts Do you have a tidal wave exit plan? Yeah, what is it?  I was the first guy on the rooftop Yeah, like people like people got up there 20 minutes later.  I had a bible great right. I had my cigarettes even though like I know I'll smoke back then No, that's not gonna do great. No Although I would be funny to see one of those videos Of a guy floating in a huge river with his head stuck out.  You mean you mean the wetsuit and the mouthpiece wasn't well researched I know I make I know I make probably faulty assumptions. Of course. Yeah, right? Yeah, but still I need to do it. So in twister, right?  I go, where's the fire hydrant? Oh, interesting. Oh, here's a good question What do you have a? Mass shooter plan I've done this. Oh, yeah, I do different comedians Come to the store with a gun And our shooting people. What's your plan? Not only that I know I already have a list of people who might I I absolutely do I bet if we and I can't tell you who they are No, I don't but I have a short list of people, right? So whenever I'm on the lineup with them.  Are you gonna hit them with like come on, man?  There's three guys, right? You're getting popped. I'm dead There's three guys. I know I'm just dead. There's nothing I can say money.  Yeah I might have to tell somebody I'll do a sketch show with I'll be a showrunner. Yeah Yeah, come on. We got to get through this. Yeah, I'll do I'll do six episodes up front Yeah, but I have that list and I know the comments in fact tonight. I have there's one guy on the lineup I can't tell you what is wow who could be a shooter. So I'm like I I am I'm at the store. I say hi, but I am you know, man Interesting super nice. Yeah, of course. Great set even though I didn't see it. You didn't see it. Great set, man Yeah, so there's nothing and I have you developed a plan to get better at it or you just hope you don't get caught Well, I'm on medication that helps. Mm-hmm. What do you want? Ritalin, great And then I like it. I love it.  I just never we never fought I just absorbed everything but there were resentments The building yeah, and it was like she's you know, she's a hot chick. I don't want her to leave Right, right So I would just absorb all the stuff right where's that meant and it gets to the point where there's nothing you can do with it except You become miserable It's in every conversation Yeah, if you don't clear it.  So I'm learning to do all that Go.  It's so hard. Yeah when I first started going to a 12 step meeting about Codependence I would if I was going to talk somebody on the phone. I'd have a like literally a bullet point the things I wanted to say Wow When I called them this is back when we used to call people on the phone.  Yeah, it's a very hard thing to do is Ask for what you want. It's hard to know what you want. Yeah, but I think our new I mean your new, you know, I mean Idea of god, right? Maybe can't we just incorporate that that like I mean I believe that I wouldn't change anything of my past because I feel like it all led me to this moment in my life And I love my life, right? So it's like and I have to believe that all that stuff in my head and it could be wrong Happened all the way it was supposed to happen and for a reason and I tried to make the Most healthiest choices for myself, you know what I mean? So from this moment onward You know, I have to believe that as well that like things are just going to happen I'm going to meet the right person. Do you ever feel that way or no? Well, no, no, no, no, I don't think it's random events because my thing is like I've had an incredibly fortunate life amazing and But there are times where I wonder when you look at like the hard part So you look at the downs at whatever the difficult chapter or whatever And you go, why did that happen? What it what am I supposed to make of that? Yeah That's the part I have a hard time with the thing about a belief in god that makes that I like is It does make me feel like Whatever happens in my life. It's okay Meaning if I end up with somebody great if I don't end up with somebody also great Yeah, and not even because like god somewhere and loves me my experience of god was not even loving or venomous Or it was just like it was just such it was like dealing with like A super super duper duper duper duper duper duper duper duper duper duper duper power So it was not even like oh and we have a relationship I didn't have any sort of relationship with the thing I experience right, but you have one now No, I mean No, not in that. I don't pray to it. I just think that there's a energetic feel that I can go to Through meditation or prayer whatever you want to call it that I don't really understand what's going on and Even just talking about it 15 seconds ago. I felt like a yeah Yeah, I get what you're saying like I felt like uh my energy shifted a little bit where I was like Am I about to pass out just for like a split second? Yeah Do you do you believe in manifestation? Are you asking me do I listen to Joe Dispenza and do the manifestation thing almost daily? No, no, I mean I believe in The chemical yeah, I guess the short answer be yes, okay the Joe Dispenza thing was Joe because I do listen to it So do you believe in manifestation? Yeah, let's move on. Let's make someone So you're not good at confrontation You're addicted to tragedy porn I have a joke about the body clock that you've seen Whether you realize it or not. I have seen it. So isis has gone after a Rock club in paris and they've gone after a gay club in Orlando. So I don't I just mentioned it in the setup. Yeah Yeah And it's but I'm okay with that right. It's incredibly personal to you. Yeah, and it's to me It's a piece of new, you know, I mean obviously like I watched the documentary and like I'm Pretty well versed in it and Jimmy Carr and I have talked about a lot and like But love Jimmy. Yeah, it's the best but But but but what I think is where many folks go wrong in my opinion is that You have to tell that joke and I have and and I know how I feel about it There's nothing that can change that right my feelings about it Art remain unaffected by jokes for against with about It's the that's that's what I already have. Yeah, and I already have that experience, you know, and so it's like I when people get offended. I'm I always think to myself. Oh my god.   Yeah, how dare you and that's a bit of arrogance in the outrage because it's also just by people Can have giant but also you're you're free to leave Well, yes, it's one of the last freedoms for me. It's one of america's great freedoms the freedom to split Yeah, right that no one seems to be able to touch. I'm going and it's like good.  I you know it's the it's the The more you get the more you realize like not being near something It's critical for one of the greatest gifts I don't want to say it's life's greatest gift, but it's up there Being able to extricate yourself from things because your brain will stop thinking about it You will stop experiencing it emotionally. It's a magic product leaving.  Yeah, the people don't realize like Oh, you don't like a person or a relationship or a situation or a smell or whatever go away from it Yeah, well, I just can't but but for me it's whoa, excuse I can't imagine saying I don't want to hear about this And also I need the entire conversation of everyone else about it to stop. That's the part I don't get where it's like I'm upset And this has got to stop around me, although I'm not leaving so everyone's got to get involved with my exact wishes That it just seems like an arrogant throw. That's always really annoyed me It's also I think it frankly it makes me want to go at someone more and in that course, you know It's the world's unfathomably Large and that people talk about like you have main character center or whatever.  Yeah, so but because you can't believe that There's this many experiences.   That's worse Yeah, like hello people. Let's get started. I'm offended. Let's get to work, you know Okay, that's a good one Well, all right, we didn't I don't even know if we avoided if we talked about avoiding conflict I think we did I I just I'm I'm I'm ready to roll up my sleeves I have a gold tooth that I've earned in my life, you know And I I've realized that as a big six foot five guy That I've been told so many times like when you get angry. It's scary I'm too big to get upset is what I've heard a lot of times. Right. You're not you're not I'm not allowed Yeah, and so You know, I've figured out a way to not let that make me upset Yeah, that's funny because I don't want to be easily manipulated by someone's frustration.   And you don't you you're not ready to learn on learn that you still think it's valuable I still think there's a there's a moment for everything Uh-huh, and I and I still think that Um, those moments are so rare now and I'm happy about that because I don't miss The bickering of bullshit, you know, and of course my friend would say don't waste the hate You know, there's so few things worth the time But I think a big thing for helping me of sort of avoid conflict has been really, you know Focusing on what I actually like now. It seems very simple, but it's like if I don't like this table I don't want to bond over not liking it together.   Yeah, and that's how we become friends Yeah, you know, I really you don't think that could be destructive along her Josh are you saying that those well these things these things happen, right? Can only sustain on a shared hatred and you start looking for shared hatred And then you're there you are well to get welded together by trauma, you know, yeah, and and and so I just think really Realizing how little time we have it's okay to say we're on the titanic It's we're all gonna hit the water. I believe that's it's not negative. It's It's like what do you want to do with the time we have left? Let's get into what you know There isn't tons of time left neil. Do you have a good eye for it? when to be contrite when to be a peacemaker and when to be a A war maker I've made a lot of war in my days and and so it's got me really excited about Like I said being a good communicator and you know working as a record producer. What is that at the end of the day? it's really About being a good communicator and not having to put yourself all over a situation You know, it doesn't it's not going through your filter. It's going through your conduit That isn't filtering anything and and I think that requires good communication. I love compromising You know, um, because that's what collaborating is, you know So, um, I've kind of lost my taste for war, you know Because it it takes up so much time And spirals out of control. I mean All right, here's devil's advocate has war been good to you. I've learned a lot Meaning have you Great songs great shows great from war.   There's it's just uh In terms of in in that discussion of we're on the titanic and it's sinking So what do you want to do with your time left?  There's just not enough time for that now. Yeah, I have to think it's Kind of a young man's game. Yeah Yeah, I'm I'm 50. How old are you 49? Yeah, I'll never be 50.  I see it mostly which I you don't have at the least I don't have it bad. I the problem is it's we're all people pleasers Give me some snapshots of avoiding confrontation in your life. Yeah. Yeah Oh, well, you know the biggest example that I used in my special is when an intruder came to my house This is very literal My instinct was hide You know Maybe look for a weapon ish thing and just hide maybe run away if possible. Maybe move Yeah, you know my husband's was opposite We go towards the guy Go confront him physically Go try to stop the situation with my body and the clothes on my back very different people. Yeah. So that's literal Like physical avoiding confrontation And intruder is a pretty big one That's not like I couldn't say no to a podcast Or I couldn't say no to a birthday party like an intruder is like fight or flight Yeah, but in intense crazy situations like that. You really show your true colors.  Like we should just move in my head I was like we will move we're no longer safe here You know, yeah, immediately quick to instead of being like, no, we built a life here Which is the things my husband you were on zilla while the intruder was still there, right? Yeah, I mean if yeah, if I had um, if had if your true your true true colors My tabs were still open though from before he came so my true true true colors came out and it was white Yeah, my husband would say things like, you know, no, we built a life here. We should at least keep trying If we move the intruders win Yeah, that kind of thing that kind of thing but also it's like it's not so easy to just pick up and move in la you have to now find a new place and that's hard and There's rent control here. We have a good relationship with our landlord, you know, like, yeah But I'd rather go through bigger hurdles than to avoid a confrontation I gotta say yeah intruders a big one. Of course intruders like Like personal physical life and safety But I know you're allowed to flee. Oh, then I was gonna somehow try to get to the time, you know, I Whatever was late to do something or whatever. No, but what what's the more like That kind of thing like do you find yourself overbooking yourself? Do you find yourself saying yes to too many Things you don't really want to do. Yes all the things right of a people. Please are right I'm a people. Please are I started going to a 12 step group That is based on codependency And overcoming codependency. So it's about creating boundaries for yourself Yeah within social dynamics but it's Really hard to the point where they have meetings every day Right because it's very hard. Yeah to ask people To meet your needs 100% I always say like you don't really change as a person from when you're a kid to now The only thing that changes is your boundaries. Yes, right? I think that's it. You just realize the energy you have for things Better, you know, so you go. Okay. I'm still the same person. I still want to people, please I want to say yes to everything but oh, I know that thing makes me really tired I know three podcasts in a row makes me tired I did it the other day or five shows in a row or whatever.  No, I mean you can't sorry. Sorry gutter No, you created a boundary. No I know it starts to bleed.  Okay, so let's get into some blocks avoiding confrontation This is a common thread in on the show At least half of our guests have had it as a Sebastian had it. Bobby Lee had it. I definitely have it Tell me about how you avoid confrontation And When did you realize like I have to stop doing this? I think my family Is like a very nice family.  How long does that last?  Yeah at that point. I say, okay. Thank you have a nice day and I walk away my wife I wouldn't even Try you wouldn't even I know like I know what's gonna happen They're just gonna say you're not in the system right and I'm gonna be like embarrassed for everybody So I'm not gonna do it to myself. Yes. I will do something very minor minutely like push back And then I am like fair enough.  And I think what I've come to in in this regard is and watch how I do this watch how I flip this I think like as a white Straight guy, Danny. Is that true? Is he a white straight guy? Go ahead. We'll find out right after this As a straight white guy comes from tremendous privilege like It's it's hard for me to like put my foot down to say like I deserve more Like because I am like in the grand scheme of things.  The lounge or the hotel? Um embassy suite embassy suite. It's an embassy suite. Yes room Meanwhile, now a lot of airports have like decent restaurants in them But it's like you're like no, I'm gonna sit in the lounge With like a weird businessman. Yeah from Dallas many many all Yeah, all on IBM thinkpads. Yes, would you know where they got them? Yeah, they're still using the eraser mouse in the middle of the keyboard computer. Yes, they're using a 40 pound computer eating So much wildly salty checks mix correct from like a A dispens a big plastic dispenser and like cucumber water. Yeah, that's correct.  Yeah, so I or like the coldest cube of fruit you've ever seen Yep For also true. So in that regard, I will not deal with confrontation now with my Interpersonally, I'm interpersonally.  I don't want to this woman.  I'm leaving then there's the inner there's the work version of things which is I just I need to hit work and Personal relationships. Yes. So in work I want everyone to like me. I want people to think I'm easy going I want people to think that I'm a pleasure to work with Is it true or you want people to think it?  Is that that's that's the sketch. That's the scene. That's the scene in the movie You're right. It is an uneven trade for me. Yes. Go ahead. So by the way, I'm like, I hate confrontation and yet I just keep going at you But in this but to me that's that is how I also deal with conversation is like Yes, great, but at least That's in a specific situation where I'm like, no, I can go at you directly about this because like you don't care and I don't care Right. So but I think like crime myself to sleep tonight. Go ahead.  So So I think like so in this case like if we came in here to scout this room and our our set designer was like These walls don't work Like I'm like why it's like well because we got red couches and we can't have the red couches with the blue walls I'd be like, okay.  I want her to like me I want less conflict on them also like what will make for the most the easiest day for everybody Energetically, energetically not you don't you will put the day ahead of the material if need be oftentimes I will because I believe on some level with the work sometimes The energy is more important than the material. Do you want to guess which one I do? I have a feeling Do you want to guess I had a guy one? I'm just remember as you tell this story We're location scouting. I believe it was on chapel show It might have been on half-baked. This is how long ago this was In the east village. We're looking at at at like buildings. We're outside And the super is talking and this the super looks at me and it's like No, I don't like this guy That's how good my energy was that a super on site was like he cannot shoot here I wasn't even doing anything that bad.  Oh, that's a But I don't know what to do it happened like days ago Where I needed a shot to be a certain way And I couldn't convince I wasn't the director and I was trying to get the director to like Please do running out of light all the shit everyone just ended up not liking me But I got the shot correct. Yes, and and like the comedy will be better. Uh-huh Which is I guess good, but I guess it's like we'll I guess I'm always like will the comedy be better Yes, okay. I mean, I'm also not I don't start out as a direct. I think if you start as a director Or you I know you didn't I mean you start as a writer but aspired and then became a director There is a certain thing with directors where they are like this is how I want Well, I just know from doing half-baked hold for a plus doing half-baked Still holding for someone to applaud Danny. Don't give me a standing ovation. No, it's it Um, we shot the movie and then we're 23 And then the editor was a very famous had done lyre lyre martin scorsese rocky He'd done rocky and lyre lyre And he did a cut that wasn't right. So I had to sit with the guy this like adult you know gold-plated editor and Correct, basically do what I thought it should be right at the first screening He looks at me and davin goes and this is direct quotes of please it goes. Well, I guess you guys aren't retarded So I'm used to like Having to make an enemy like that guy hated my guts and I just had to like I guess it's just part of like Doing it the way you need it to be done is that no one's gonna listen I I wish I was more mild mannered or had a better bedside manner than you I bet that like you I think it's a it's a more than anything It's a bedside manner of like it's also just like choosing your battles inside of things But I all of them and and that's are the battles I choose the all of them What battles do I choose all of them? Hi, I'm neil brennan. Welcome back to blocks Um battle box


From the CUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and welcome to a special CUBE conversation. I'm coming from the Boston area studio. We were supposed to have a CUBECon Europe in Amsterdam. First in the spring, they pushed it off to the summer and of course the decision due to the global pandemic is it's making it virtual. But happy to welcome to the program two guests that I was planning to have on in person, but couldn't wait for our virtual coverage for the event. So happy to welcome the co-founders of TriggerMesh. Sitting in the middle is Mark Hinkel, who is the CEO of the company and to the other side, Sebastian Golezgen, who is also the co-founder and the chief product officer, gentlemen. Thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having us Stu. Thanks Stu. All right, so, you know, it's interesting. We've been covering the cloud native space for a number of years and especially at CUBECon. There's always some of those discussions of, you know, does cloud kill on premises? Does this new thing kill that old thing? And in some of the early days of CUBECon, it was like, well, you know, containers were really interesting and there was, you know, all the buzz for years about Docker. But, you know, hey, the next thing's going to be serverless. In serverless, we don't need to think about any of that stuff. It's the nirvana of what developers wanted. So therefore, let's not worry about containers, but you sit in that space really helping to connect between, you know, some of the various pieces. So, I guess, Sebastian, maybe if I could start with you, because you've built some of these various projects, you know, when you go through and look at your background, you know, you've been involved in the Kubernetes space, CUBEless, and now, of course, TriggerMesh, but, you know, give us some of that background as to how, from a technological underpinnings, the community's been thinking about how these worlds fit together. Yeah, sure. And, you know, it's very interesting because first, you know, the container rejuvenation started with Docker, obviously, and then Kubernetes, you know, appeared and the entire community started building this. And this was really an evolution from, you know, the virtual machine orchestration, right? People needing a better way to package application, deploy them.  Virtual machines are not, you know, that great for this. And we have a better vehicle to do this. And that's where, you know, really containers to cover. And it made total sense. And so we saw this switch from, you know, craziness about OpenStack and even CloudStack that Mark and I worked on, and, you know, putting all the focus on containers. And then comes AWS always innovating, always in the lead, and AWS saying, hey, you know what? Actually, we need to go serverless. We need to forget about the infrastructure. What people want is really, you know, deploy applications without worrying about the infrastructure. They want things that are going to autoscale.  So AWS really pushed this mindset of serverless. But then what was the meaning in that, in that realm of containers? And that's where I started Cubeless. And I said, you know what? If you would need to build function as a service, you should build it on Kubernetes. You can use Kubernetes as a platform. And from there, we started seeing this fight a little bit between people saying, hey, you know, forget containers, go serverless. So in a trigger match, we're not really taking that stance. We really see on-premises has, you know, it's always been to be here, you know, we have workloads on-premises. We have our own data centers, but definitely there is more and more cloud usage. And when you start using the cloud, you don't want to care about the infrastructure in the cloud, right?  So you have to be a pragmatic and you have to take the best of both worlds and keep moving to, you know, modernize your stack and your IT in general. Excellent. All right. So Mark, you know, at the CNCF, I had seen the K-native project come out and it was talking about, you know, how we can, how can we connect containers and serverless? And one of the questions I'd been asking is, I said, well, you know, look, there are a lot of open source projects for serverless. But when I talk to the community, when I talk to users, you say serverless, I think AWS, Sebastian was just talking about. So, you know, I was sitting at the KubeCon shows and talking to the vendors and a lot of really big vendors working on K-native, you know, Oracle, IBM, Red Hat and others.   We've been looking at this space. So how did the ideas that Sebastian talked about turn into, you know, an initiative and a company of TriggerMesh? Well, early on, we latched on to the K-native announcement that Google made. Google had given Sebastian some insight into where they were going with serverless and the K-native project before it launched. And then they actually quoted him in their release, which started interest in our company, which was only a company in name at that point. But we really didn't know where K-native and Kubernetes together were going and the serverless movement. But we thought at first that there would need to be management capabilities to do life cycle management around serverless functions. But what we realized, or Sebastian realized early on was that it's not so much the management of serverless because that's the whole idea of serverless is to abstract away all the servers and architecture so that all you're really dealing with is the runtime. And so the problem that we saw early on was not managing but actually integrating applications across serverless from. So the name TriggerMesh came from the idea that you trigger serverless functions and that you would mesh architectures, whether they be legacy applications or they be cloud services or other serverless clouds across the fabric of the internet. So that's TriggerMesh and that's really where we're going and we see that there's a couple of proof points in our industry for that already. People having a desire to do that. All right, excellent. So that integration that you're talking about that helps Sebastian explain there some news, I believe is the EveryBridge cloud native integration platform that's just announced. Help us understand what that is and if he can give a little, what should we be kind of comparing it to other solutions in the industry today? Yeah, so we're very happy about the EveryBridge announcements and it's really, we're getting beta, we are doing a beta release of EveryBridge available in our SaaS cloud that TriggerMesh.io. And really to first piggyback on what Mark was saying is that I think a lot of people still believe serverless is just functions, right? And for us, serverless is much more than this. Serverless is about building event-driven applications. We see it with AWS, with things like they're doing with EventBridge, for example, but we really believe in this mindset. What we're trying to do is to help people build applications, build cloud native applications that fundamentally are event-driven and they are linking cloud services in the public cloud providers and also on-premises workload, right? So EveryBridge allows people to do this, to build those cloud native apps as basic event flows that connect event sources, wherever they are, could be events that are on-prem from an e-commerce application, ERP application, could be events that are circulating through a Kafka infrastructure on-prem. And people can connect those event sources with what we call targets. So those targets could be on-premises, they would be OpenShift workloads, for example, or they could be in the cloud AWS Lambda functions, Google Cloud Run, or even dedicated SaaS, like Twilio, SunGrid and so on. So that's what we saw really over the last 18 to almost two years now, is that serverless is more of an integration problem, more like traditional iPads that we've seen, right? So basically we're building a new iPad solution at the frontier of serverless offerings from the public clouds. Traditional messaging system, like Kafka, RabbitMQ as well, plus the, I would say the old iPad solution, and we're doing all of this backed by Kubernetes and K-Mative. Excellent, so Mark, I heard Sebastian talking about, he mentioned OpenShift, talked about Google. Speak a little bit to really the ecosystems and marketplaces that TriggerMesh fits into, what are the use cases that you're seeing customers using? Yeah, I think a couple of the, to dive into the on-prem triggers, we'll have the capability to trigger for Oracle database changes that could actually kick off cloud-based ETL transactions. We're seeing that users are going through digital transformation, and really to be more specific, given the global climate right now is remote work, and the idea of lifting and shifting all of your infrastructure into the cloud is pretty daunting and long task, but if you can front-end those systems with new cloud-native architecture, and you have a way to create those event flows to tie in your existing systems to new portals for your employees to get their work done, automate workflows to provision new systems, like Zoom for its ample and other conferencing systems, you can use the serverless front-ends and workflows that actually integrate with all of your existing infrastructure and give you a way to extend your life of your applications and modernize them. Yeah, the long pole in the tenant modernization always is that application. Sebastian, maybe come to you on this, is I think about iPads, when you look at that space, they talk about all the integration that they need to work on, usually there's certifications involved. You mentioned Oracle databases, these are things that we need to go in there with an engineering effort and make sure that it's tested and certified by the ISV out there. Does containerization, Kubernetes and serverless, does it change it at all? Does it make it easier to move along these environments? I guess the question is for the enterprise, normally this change is rather slow. Mark was just alluding to the fact, we need to do some of these things a little faster to try to react from what's happening in the world. Yeah, I think that's the entire premise of containers. It's spitting up the software lifecycle and the speed at which we can deliver new features for all our applications and so on. So a big part of the job when Docker started and then Kubernetes has been, if you adopt that type of infrastructure and that type of artifact containers, you're going to speed up your software management and software delivery. So now what happens is that you have slow-moving pieces, maybe pieces that you've had in your data center for 10, 20 years, for quite a while. And then you have this extremely fast-moving environment which is containerized and running Kubernetes plus the cloud that's even faster-moving. And that's definitely the challenge and that's where we see the value and that's where we see the struggle is that you have all those big companies that have those slow-moving pieces, Oracle, DB, IBM, MQ, and so on. And they need to make those pieces relevant in a fast-moving containerized world and in a cloud-native world. So how do you bridge that gap? So that's what we do. We provide bridges. We provide integration bridges with every bridge. There you go. So we connect the event sources from Oracle, DB, and MQ and we bring that to a more fast-moving cloud-native environment, whether it's managed Kubernetes on Google GKE or whether it's still on-prem in an open ship. Yeah, Mark, I want to get your viewpoint just being a startup in today's global environment. Obviously, your company, you look at the cloud-native space, many of the companies are distributed. We're talking to Sebastian from over in Europe, you're down in North Carolina, but give us your viewpoint as a startup.  So our partners and customers are probably moving more slowly than we do as a startup because they had physical brick-and-mortar offices and now they're coming into our world. We're 100% virtual or in three continents across over 12 times in. So that kind of work versus where they're at, I think everybody is cautiously moving ahead. The one thing that I will say is that their interest in being more like the startups that are virtual don't have brick-and-mortar, are really good at online collaboration. They look at us for sort of inspiration on how they're gonna do business going forward or at least for the foreseeable future. So overall, I think that not only are we teaching them about cloud-native technologies, but we're just teaching them about distributed workforces in a quarantine world. Absolutely, and I think those are some of the key learnings that you'd look at, the diverse ecosystem in the cloud-native space. What I want to give you both a final word. And Stu, if I just add something, I mean, Mark and I have been working from home for quite a while, eight to 10 years. And definitely right now, this is not the normal working from home, right? We all have, most of us have kids at home 24 seven. The cognitive load in the news is huge. This is not the normal environment. So, we are extremely careful. We help each other definitely internally in the team, India, Vietnam, Germany, Spain and US. We have to be extremely careful that everybody is not falling down and pulling too much on the nerves and their spirits, right? So, yeah, not a normal environment. And even though we know how to do it, we have to be careful. Yeah, no, Sebastian, I'm so glad you brought that up because this is not just a, hey, how do we move to a distributed system? There is the rest of the impact on that. All right, so, yeah, let's give you both final word. Hopefully, we absolutely will be gathering together, even if we are remote for the KubeCon event for Europe, other events later this year. But, Sebastian, let's start with you, final takeaways. Yeah, so we're excited to be able to start up. It's fast moving, it's an exciting industry and releasing the beta release of every bridge for us. We're trying to bring the future of event-driven application to everybody, event sources to targets for everyone, not just on AWS and, you know, taking all the strength of Kubernetes with us. It's going to be a familiar system for all Kubernetes lovers. Great, Mark. Well, as we talked about today, we're very excited about the every bridge announcement. And if you're interested in cloud-native server lists, digital transformation, we think we have great tools for you. But on a more personal and global note, I think Sebastian hit something that's really important that, you know, even though we're not all together, it's really important to check in. Even these virtual sessions have been, it's nice to interact with your colleagues and your friends in the industry, but be kind to each other and just take it for granted that everything's going on the other end of the wire. So reach out to each other and we'll all get through this together. Well, Mark and Sebastian, thank you so much for joining us.  So congratulations on the progress and definitely look forward to, you know, tracking where you go from here. Thanks to you. We appreciate it. All right, be sure to check out the kube.net. We will be covering kube.con and cloud-native.con Europe as it goes virtual as well as lots of others in the cloud developer space. I'm Stu Miniman and thank you for watching the kube.


Every social economic group spends money on things. However, a difference exists between what the poor and rich spend their money on respectively.  The point of this video is not to make you feel wrong about how you spend your money but it is for you to have a deep thought about the things you spend your money on and the value they add to your life. 1. Food waste and drinks Recent studies show that the average American household is wasting approximately $20,000 per year on food that they throw away. Most people tend to buy what they think they can use, not what ought to be consumed and 8 out of 10 times such people are wrong about what they assume they can consume. Because poor people do not always have the leisure of eating whatever they want when they get little bucks, they tend to buy more than they need and those groceries end up in the trash most of the time. Furthermore, poor people are mostly attracted to coffee and other drinks.  Although $2-3 may seem small, the habit of continuously spending such amount for weeks and months often leads them to be broke in no time. 2. Underlying illnesses Do you ever look forward to your annual visit to the dentist?  That stuff is scary and will take much money as I don't have insurance so I will probably chill and wait till my tooth begins to ache before I visit a dentist. After all, then I will be paying for an actual service. That is the typical thinking of a poor person. Poor people often assume that general checkups are a waste of money so they will instead withhold that money. However, they fail to realize that the continual refusal to go for health maintenance may cause them to pay more later on. The fact about your health is that the more you ignore it, the more damaged it becomes. Finally, it might get to a point where you are forced to spend a fortune on implants and surgeries. 3. Games and in-app purchases You download a free game on your phone. You spend a reasonable amount of time playing this game and you get addicted. You get to a particular level and you run out of coins. Immediately, the app tells you that you can purchase more coins with a few dollars. Well, it's just a small amount and you already love the game so you pay. A few days later, you repurchase it again and again. Wait a second. Did you know that 70% of Fortnite players spend money in the game? The average amount these people spend for digital items in Fortnite alone is $84.67 and that Candy Crush was making $3 million per day from people buying extra lives or whatever they used to purchase in-game. Many poor people do not only waste their money on in-app purchases, they spend their mobile subscription plans playing games online and also they waste the hours of their time which can translate to money. Time is money. Guess what? The rich guys are the ones who build those games. 4. Coupons for buying random stuff What do you do when you are surfing on the net and a coupon ad pops up? No doubt tokens are incredible but they are beneficial only when you are buying something you already budgeted. A lot of people however waste their money on unnecessary things just because they see a coupon ad. For instance, 20% off the prices of all meals in an expensive restaurant nearby. Sure, it's a great deal but you can keep that money and eat your dinner at home as planned. For some reason, poor people see coupons and discounts as opportunities. However, for the rich, when you purchase items that you don't need or want because of a ticket you wasted some bucks that you would have used for other things on your budget. 5. Fortune tellers and lucky charms When things are not going well in a person's life it is only natural to seek for answers. Out of curiosity, people attempt to learn about their future to find direction or even get knowledge about their family background. However, most of these fortune tellers are scammers looking to make quick dollars from vulnerable individuals. And many poor people never learn. George Clayson wrote in his book The Rich's Madden Babylon that good luck can only be enticed by accepting the opportunity. While the rich understand that a person's future is an outcome of choices made the poor often think that they are just unlucky. Thus, they search for fortune tellers and waste money on lucky stones and charms to make their lives better. 6. Impulse Buy In an interview with Forbes, Warren Buffett said if you buy things you don't need soon you will have to sell things you need. Even the rich sometimes spend money on things they desire. However, they give proper thoughts about it and ensure that it is on their budget. Making a purchase whim is never an attitude of the wealthy. You really don't need to purchase a new phone case when the one you are still using still looks new. Even if your gas cylinder lighter is running low you do not need to purchase a replacement at a higher cost just because your attention was drawn to the fancy one you saw through a shop's transparent door. A study done in the UK showed that the average Brit would spend over £150,000 on impulse purchases in his or her lifetime. That's a lot of money that could be used for other better reasons. It pays to know the difference between your wants and needs and buy only items on your budget or of pressing need. 7. Latest Gadgets While it is fantastic to move along with technology as it advances it is also necessary to put your financial state into consideration. Often the motivation behind getting the latest kind of gadget is to keep up with friends. However, if you carefully compare you will observe that there are no remarkable differences between one phone and the next. It is mostly just a slight variation, maybe a better camera. Having the money to pay for a new phone does not make it a must for you to purchase. You cannot afford it. Changing your phone every time a new one comes into the market is not wise. Rich people do not do that. The rich use their gadgets longer than the poor and replace them only when they need to. They take good care of them and are not swayed by the latest ones. 8. Penalties for late payments According to Dave Bach, author of Smart Women Finish Rich, late fees can add up to a fortune. Rich people do not miss paying their bills because they detest wasting their money on some pesky penalties for late fees. When the poor tend to carry over their payments to a later time the rich diligently set up auto-pay on all their accounts. A report by the Mudley Fool showed that in 2016 credit card companies raked in $12 billion in penalty payments including late fees. Savvy spenders avoid late fees by automating their expenses but the poor ones struggle with delayed payments. 9. Gambling A 2012 study at Yale University found that those in the lowest fifth in terms of socioeconomic status had the highest rate of lottery gambling about 61% and the highest mean level of days gambled in the past year 26.1 days. Gambling can be anything from going to the casino to buying lottery tickets. The thought of putting a little amount of money into a machine and getting a more massive amount is quite irresistible. You also assume that it is just a small amount of money. If you lose it, it takes nothing from you. But when you try the first time and it does not work, you tend to try again. Again and again. It's indeed funny how people never give up when it comes to gambling but find it difficult to hold on to genuine opportunities that can change their lives. Gambling is addictive and in most cases it is the poor that gets entangled in it because of their quest for quick wealth. When you are aware and conscious of your spending habits you will find yourself climbing up the socioeconomic ladder faster than you can ever imagine. Take out time to ponder about what saps your money the most and fix it.