Welcome everyone to tonight's meeting. My favorite city council really changes to the agenda Well, the no Green Mountain transit Not we'll consider the That objection generally will be approved without that that are with that change Next item is general business that appearance anybody here to comment on anything that's on our agenda I can Move to the consent agenda So moved Discussion And zoning this is our final hearing on the zoning and river hazard regulations. This is public hearing Coming on that this would be opportunity to do that All right For your last hopefully final appearance before the council on zoning for the rest of your life It only feels like an attorney So I guess the only thing I will preface this Discussion on was the email that I sent you this afternoon if there were any questions on that So really we Approved on the 20th you approved on the 20th the final changes we incorporated those changes put those changes online And We recognize I recognize at the time we had put it online that there were Some weird things that had happened to the formatting some indenting that had happened and in one section of Like 3204 for whatever reason it lost its its numeration so it didn't have numbering So I was like all right Well, we'll get it online because we need to put it online and we'll send it off the brandy the consultant to figure out What's up with formatting she reformatted and got it back today where we noticed Thing that we've been chasing for a while, which is that every time we change a thing It'll say C section 3004 point D. We're like, well, that's the wrong section. We'll fix it. Well every time we save it The word document goes back and goes this. Oh, that's the wrong one. We'll put it back to 3004 D So what was online had a dozen or a dozen of these little references? So I went through the entire document double checking back to make sure that you know We had what was in the approved draft The correct citations and so I cleaned those up But what I basically had to do is to break break the link. So in the original document if you saw one of those See 3004 you literally could take your mouse and click on it and it would send you there. Well now it's not going to send you there What it would do if we left it there was send you to the wrong place That was the only way I could get to fix it. I'm sure there's a Pretty or more elegant way of doing it, but So what you do have what I did email you was the correct version So if you were to look in your foot on the footnote, it would say final draft January 3rd 2018 and I made three final copies in case there was somebody who wanted a hard copy So we had a lot of changes in our last meeting and I'm sure well Maybe others have been diligent and read it and cross-checked against all the requests But I suspect a lot of haven't and we're gonna find you know, there'd be people who scrub it and say well That's not really what if that happens. What is what are the what's the avenue? How would we get it correct? How do we change like if somebody says you did this and it's not reflected accurately here I mean what's the process for fixing it? I hope that the way I've done it We would have very few of those but and we may not have any I just So what was put online first of all for anyone who did want to go and diligently double-check to make sure we had done it All right, there is also a strikeout copy From what was done on the 20th, you know based on What was done pre-hearing to post-hearing there was a strikeout copy that was made as well So if you really want to see what changes were made and approved on the 20th Those are all in there in a strikeout if you want to go and fix it Probably the fastest way to fix a mistake like that We would have to go through into an interim zoning amendment, which is a relatively short process if we found one that was wrong We could always check with our legal counsel to go through and see if if there was a mistake that was approved And we adopt this and find out that There was a change that was supposed to have been made that wasn't I don't know if we can just go and do it but I'm I've never I've never had had a case come up like that, so I really would just have to check with the The worst-case scenario is Interim zoning amendment to make that correction I just wanted to make sure that the changes you made with breaking the links don't affect the fact that we properly warned No, it wouldn't in fact this actually by breaking the links you had to to actually get it correct because In in the matrix you said You know approve fix change 300 D to 305 And so I make that change. I save it. I put it online and it automatically changes it back to what it was incorrect so correcting it doesn't actually Change what was approved and the links are you know convenience to not really the substance Because you still the end link is the actual regulation We need to make a motion So, yeah, I know if there are no other comments will close the hearing Make a motion to accept the master plan as presented We've got a unified unified development regulations is One to be adopted and the river hazard regulations Yeah Second Discussion All in favor, please say aye. Hi post Congratulations. Thank you again Mike for all the incredible work Been worn down all right great work everyone Big accomplishment, okay, I don't see Jeff Byer here's he So See Jack here Jack.  Are you waiting on anybody else for the house? You're ready to go great Okay, so we'll move to item 8 the housing trust fund Okay, good evening. Thank you for having me And I'm here to talk about the proposal for the housing trust fund for fiscal As I talked about it why I think you really have a two-part message to tell you tonight one is that The housing task force is taking and we believe the city should be taking Progressive forward-looking approach to how we structure these programs and address not simply the issues that we have today, but the issues that we can anticipate having in years to come so that we can Continue to make progress toward toward the goals that the city has recognized at some time Developing new housing making new housing possible within the city and making it affordable Of our community and so that's one of our messages today, and we think that our proposal Will move us along in that direction and and the second message is We wanted the Responsive to the concerns that we've had heard from the council in three years sessions and And you'll see that the proposal we've worked for you today addresses the concerns that you've had and I hope I Hope I hope that message comes across well What we've talked about and and the full dollar amount is not set forth at our proposal but but our goal our messages is to really do The four things one is to maintain the base funding of $60,000 that we had this year to enable us to carry on with the New homeowner We documented how successful it's been how we've been able to have a program that's enabled people to Here Recognizing that it's Somewhat more expensive to live here in Montpelier than in our neighboring towns, but it's a benefit of the city new families move into the city and We know how to do the program it works well The grant originally was $15,000 for a down payment assistance It's payment. It's now $10,000 the way the payment works Provided to the As a check at closing so as the pain all the documents and all the funds that are changing hands at the closing include that the Mortgage and the $10,000 payment the promissory know it's all there Part of the package so as the closing goes forward, but this is part of what happens to Enable the family to close And we think it's vital to some of these some of these purchases We Recognize that we're not going to grow the city's population Six families at a time in the down payment assistance program. So we're looking at other Other sources of revenue and other uses of revenue to our experiences been Every new year Downstreet comes in with a proposal to really change the housing market by creating new housing in the city new affordable housing the city and we have French block across the street, which is Well on the way and We can anticipate that happening again if we're stuck at $60,000 a year Be able to get there, but What we've seen in the programs funded by the trust fund is that we've actually added money to the To the grand list we generated tax revenue by the investments the city council has made in the trust fund and we propose to re-invest 25% of the Internet of Value each year in the trust fund going forward this year fiscal 2019 this would amount to almost 30,000 dollars or 29 664 75 in In additional funds to the trust fund if the council dedicates 25% of the incremental taxes for one year Is that just a clarify question that is that be 25% of the new value for any investment or any Money or project that has received funding any funding from the trust fund The trust fund we put in $8,000 and somebody puts in a million dollars that results in $200,000 to make a number in revenue you take 25% of that even though the initial Contribution was 8,000 small incremental contribution As a question of how that would work I would say yes That's how it would work what I would say I go beyond that to say that in a number of projects having That local contribution from the city's trust fund one of the things that was able to bring It's not just well $8,000 is nothing on a million dollar project the money that comes from the city The third source of fun which we propose is to dedicate 25% of the rooms and meals the local option Trust fund and I don't know if there's statistics and we've seen yet Entities like Airbnb People who could be renting property out to permanent renters three or four weekends a month and generate the revenue and Take that off the housing market make the housing unavailable for people who want to move in with those mentors and so in recognition of the fact that the Rental market the temporary rental market is having effect on the housing market You propose also 25% of the The projections Five hundred so the total requests would be 144,000 Just ask Bill a question there We don't currently levy the rooms and meals tax on Airbnb So we don't have a way of doing that or we do but people don't necessarily Do it we levy the tax on anything the state levies the tax on okay We don't we don't administrate ourselves so whatever the state collects on so I think the state is working on collecting Okay, so we are successfully collecting Okay, I remember hearing some stuff about it It's just not an individual yes individual city controlled Last piece of the picture Which is not something that we're saying this is Capture funds Fisheries for the first time Prospects improved they may not You hurt That when they sell the house And so So Kevin and I had a really productive conversation Couple weeks ago Prior to the previous meeting when we thought we're gonna talk about this about a bunch of other ways that we could get at this problem and make housing more accessible and There were we had a lot of creative ideas and so I Would like to propose that rather than Dedicating you know saying here's our $60,000 this year we want it to go to this one project specifically the first-time home buyers program I would like to instruct the task force and the trust fund to Consider Some of those alternatives that we discussed and some of those included taking some of the revolving loan funds we have and combining them and figuring out ways to make that money more accessible to Hit some of these problems that we've talked about having And so I want to continue to work on this and I don't want to limit ourselves by saying here's $60,000 it's going to first-time buyers because I think that if we do some more work here We can come up with an even better way of spending that money I you know I've talked before about how I'm concerned that first-time home buyers Well, it's not terrible. It isn't the best use of that money. And so I kind of like the opportunity to explore that more by not locking us into Spending the money that way and then if the trust fund decides that after those discussions that is the best way Then I know that they could present that to the council in the future But I want to create some space for that conversation to happen So you would be just wanted to have time to work and meet with the and and I will commit to Working more closely with the task force on some of those ideas I've already been told $60,000 And I would just want to make it clear that we weren't sending a message from the council to the trust fund that this is exactly how We wanted it spent because we want to allow them to have that flexibility to think through those things I'm like us to that end. I mean I wonder if we should be at least saying you know we anticipate spending $60,000 on this fund and we'll discuss how how it ought to be allocated and and That's a discussion. I think we probably can have I just don't want to miss the opportunity to You know maintain our level of support of funds No, and I'm in support of continuing to set $60,000 aside for housing I just don't want to lock us into this one particular avenue Like here is we're gonna devote 144,000 This is by way of background we had this discussion And actually we're on last year and the housing task force request comes out of They looked at the $140,000 number was actually a function looking at first-time homebuyers as well as Projects so if you were to fully fund projects and programs Currently that's what the and to build the reserve the one hundred and forty thousand would do that build the reserve On the first-time homebuyers and fun projects on a four to five-year basis. So this this number although it seems very large it's actually it's it's there was a bunch of work put into it last year and I'm happy to share that with everybody to the task force put a lot of work into that in November 16, yeah, so it's before the But I'll circulate that for everybody too I'm also comfortable supporting the city manager's recommendation that we hold funding at $60,000 for this year I do applaud your creativity in many of these new recommendations I'd like to ask a couple questions if I may to help better understand this and also To confirm a couple things. Thank you very much for including the possibility of a payback I think that was councilor Krueger who thought about maybe the unintended consequence there Mayor Holler suggestion that we know I may have qualified this when I bought my house and now that I've established myself Why wouldn't I be expected to put this money back into the trust fund? I guess I'd the only adjustment I would suggest is that you consider changing the 125% of medium income to 100% I mean that's sort of right in the middle and Presumably below that number you're you do need assistance and help and if you're above that you may not so Just one thought there Actually So if you're making a hundred and twenty Well, twenty percent higher than the median income is that would be correct then that then you wouldn't necessarily need a subsidy Right, okay, so I guess I'm just questioning that assumption as a policy matter But I can appreciate wanting it to be the same as the state level Didn't know if there's a quick update in terms of when the French block may be ready to have people move in I know it's a complicated project But is there any sort of tentative date at which this housing will be completed and available to people? Last I knew they were opening bids in mid-December and and preparing to award contracts and the grand side around now and You know start work in the next month or so Once they get all that iron out, but you know, I don't know how long the project takes once they start work and on the grand side, it's just there's Finishing up fine details on the response. So it's close. It's you know, they're moving forward anticipate construction beginning then this year And then maybe a year or two to complete all that or I mean any sort of a time frame here in terms of when My understanding and again, we'd have to confirm this with Down Street, but they were supposed to start construction demolition this winter and Fully engaged by the spring In regards to your suggestion around rooms and meals I just comment that we were this council or the previous council was very specific when putting this before voters that this New tax that we were proposing was going to be used for Infrastructure and economic development, and I didn't know if you were Intending us to add on a quarter percent or to then shift the way that those monies were being spent No, we're not talking about adding anything to the tax, but I think it's it's very clear not only from market expect experts around the State but also even from our own economic development That housing development is economic Development is one of the things that enables us to have Thank you, so I think that keeps faith keeps the keeps the party Does anybody know if the like Airbnb taxes are separated like can you tell exactly how much revenue was generated by Airbnb? rentals Be state tax department would have to do that But we just get it as a bulk this is how much was collected in your city for right Right, but if we can see the state data, and if the state data has it broken down I would be totally comfortable with the Airbnb, you know with the percentage of Airbnb stuff going to affordable housing if that if that breakdown exists It's probably just lumped under rooms collection, but we'd have to look I don't know if they would do it for a single because I think that that would be Yeah, I mean I I'm curious if they do And then I guess my second piece is I was just looking at some information from the latest census and I I feel pretty strongly that even 125 percent of median income in Vermont is still a pretty low dollar amount when you look I mean compared to states around us our median income is the lowest compared to Massachusetts and New Hampshire and New York And you know just just myself in my own experience looking at the rental market and you know sort of what is and isn't affordable And and how few choices there are, you know, and if homebuyership is even an option for you at a hundred and twenty five percent I mean that's pretty amazing. So I feel pretty strongly that that a hundred and twenty five percent should just be the baseline and Maybe we should even explore going a little higher than that because that's really not that much money And if the goal is to bring in, you know, young families with children and you're only talking about a hundred and twenty-five percent You're still pricing out a whole bunch of people from the monthly or housing market Definitely are You can say well a hundred percent of median is right in the middle. That's true But when you look at incomes in comparison to housing costs Preach into the choir Yeah, so perhaps I'm just being a little methodical about this, but so there were four Proposals, I mean I am I've already mentioned I'm very much in favor of the first one of at least maintaining $60,000 As far as the the you know reinvestment of money from projects that we are donating to I think that makes a lot of sense and if we can take that increased grand list Revenue put it back into affordable housing, which is a deep need in this city Then that is a worthwhile endeavor And then, you know, it's it's the kind of thing that I think once we have too much affordable housing then Maybe we can think about readjusting that number But we are so far from it right now that I'm In favor of that and then you know, I had the same thought to Justin about the meals rooms and alcohol tax You know when we proposed this it had certain You know ideas, but I really appreciate your your thoughts there jack about you know that this Affordable housing is is economic development bringing more people in town. It's I mean part of the EDSP was about Housing and that's that this is this is doing that one of the things that I Guess I so Forgive me for my confusion here. How much money were you proposing coming out of the 25% for meals rooms and alcohol? So and that's in addition, I mean we're already allocating what like a hundred thousand dollars Development corporation, so how much does that we know how much that leaves? Well, it's not the budget revenues 218,000 The remainder 118,000 is revenue offsetting So there's plenty of room for that no it's going Well anyway, I'm willing to talk about that one and then recapture funds I Think that I think that plan also makes some sense, you know keeping this Money for people who Yeah, we need to talk about three, but I'm in favor of one two and four I really appreciate every time you come you come with solid data and new ideas And I would love to see the council explore more of these if not in this budget certainly future budgets They're all good ideas I'd like to follow up on something that counselor Watson said which is we're so far from Achieving an appropriate level of affordable housing you may remember several years ago I asked what sort of our comparable communities or neighboring communities What is their sort of target level of the percentage of total housing stock that and I know there's a couple different definitions there in terms of Making it fully subsidized or partially subsidized or just providing incentives. Do you have any numbers for us in terms of? How what percentage we do have that is Benefiting from some sort of subsidy in total housing stock and what second question would be what a sort of an appropriate target might be and are we So then we can figure out are we after we need to keep adding more faster? Are we already in excess of that it would help us to? Well, I think I mean and I provided these numbers before and Jack or a housing task force as well it's It's there's a certain nuance to it because it's it's not as simple as it looks and and and it really gets it at the core of You know like Downstreet does Some of their their units are market rate So, you know, that's you can't just say like all of their project all of their units are Affordable housing there's affordable housing project, but they are some of those are set aside, you know, which ones are market Which ones are I mean can't you just count the ones that are but then there's these the other You can't you have to be careful because then you can double count because some of those for example If you have Downstreet, but then you have a section 8 voucher You can have a section 8 voucher, which is which is paying for your you know a portion of your unit if you're very low income But you have to be careful to not double count that because if I just look at the number of section 8 vouchers That will give me one number, but then I have to kind of cross-reference it with the other existing units which takes But as far as appropriate No, so there is no way to count the number of subsets there is and we did that a few years ago it is but it's not as It it takes a fair amount of groundwork from Downstreet Mount here housing authority all the kind of players that that have either, you know a subsidy a voucher a Unit and then they have to kind of and what is the city's target number of percentage? There is not a target number. We don't have one Right What you might consider low income subsidized housing Housing subsidized housing units that people like me occupy Mortgage interest deduction property tax Tax break our exceed the subsidized housing I understand I read the full report from before and I did my best to understand it Certainly that there is a lot of nuance here and I can appreciate even within one unit You have a huge spectrum in terms the percentage of the total rent that the people that are living in those units are paying So I get that there's a ton of grayer here I guess I'm just expressing that it's difficult to make Funding decisions without a having a sort of a general target that we're trying to achieve or be having any metrics Even the most liberal for how we might measure where we are today Well, I think that there is a way to do it I mean if you look at we want to have a healthy housing market The most experts agree that a healthy housing market has about 5% vacancy We are currently operating at about functional zero so that you know, and if you talk to and that's what the census will tell you that's what you know Vermont housing data will tell you there were You know blow 1% and if you talk to your landlords They will tell you that their only vacancies are when they're doing work on an apartment or if there's a fire Or if that's that's when you have vacancies Otherwise you're you're just, you know hot bunking people They're they're moving out and you're moving somebody right in and which actually affects quality as well So, you know, you know your healthy housing market has 5% vacancy So what we can do from a government entity is work out affordable housing because that's where we can that's where you know Our funding sources come from that's that's you know, we're We're helping where the market fails so if You know the true market rate would be is is significantly higher than what I think most people Find palatable, you know, you see this with what the proposed rents for new projects are and they are astonishingly hot And I guess that's kind of where maybe I'm getting a little confused as if there's such high demand for housing and that potentially That rents are perhaps higher than they should be because of that limited supply. Why are we seeing so little growth in our grand list? Excuse me new new green is coming online. Well, I mean that is that's a that's the kind of the million dollar question That has come up again and again and part of it is that you know Like if I'm a developer I can develop and ship into the county for you and build a unit for the exact same amount of money But I can charge more for rent and although our rents are high They're not high enough to reach the breaking point where it becomes It makes more sense to to develop here that we saw that with redstone They said, you know, it's the costs are higher than what our return is and and you know Unfortunately, what we're gonna have to see is higher rents before that market, you know The market corrects itself or we have an intervention Thank you other questions, thank you very much for your work Jack and Hey, it's Jeff Byer command, I believe Jeff you enjoy this talk about proposed Hubbard Park land purchase adjacent to Hubbard Park So I'll talk in general terms as I understand it I'll talk in general terms because I understand the land purchase issues Otherwise need to go into a executive session, but correct me if I'm wrong. So Just to address that question The end purchases are an allowable topic of executive session when there is a clear disadvantage to the Party so for example, if we were discussing Negotiating this purchase and we want to talk about well Offer this, but we'll take this and those kind of you would do that no concession if you situation where If as your desire to see me presenting it, here's the price is the prod property. It's just do we buy it or not I don't know that it would meet that test of there being a disadvantage to the council unless there was a negotiating point They wanted to discuss All right So I think just to follow up on that point I think I'd leave it to your discretion to draw it tell us when you think that this an open session discussion with Disadvantages Right, it sounds like it's a general matter. It's appropriate for us to talk about that in public. Great. Okay. Thanks, Jeff Yeah, great. Thanks Park Commission, and I have been pursuing the potential for a land addition purchase and Hubbard Park for several reasons over the past several years and a couple of them being the Continuing growing pressures on Hubbard Park and some conflicts of use and then having some more choices to do more and the two particular things that are Offer possibilities are one having a trail that would be Leash or no leash thing because when you have historic uses it's Think you probably can relate and you try to change them It's it's a lot harder than if you have a new piece and then you have a new use And we saw that in North Branch Park when we established a multi-use trail There's absolutely no resistance and it's welcomed and it's been very popular for for everyone I've you try to do that same thing We've had people come to meetings very upset and concerned with a possible conversion of a trail to a multi-use in Hubbard Park When mountain bikes are brought up So with the with the new trail we would have that option not that either of those are set in stone The Park Commission would want to get the land and then have public meetings and then try to get the highest and best use given community input So that's the rough background So we have walked this this this land I've been in conversation with land owners for actually over four or five years and now in this past year funding both landowners were willing and interested and agreed up to a Fair market phrased the value We got the appraisal and they both agreed to the price of the appraisal So and that's why I'm here today to seek your approval to go forward With this purchase in part and in large part using park impact fee Money that is still available Questions for Jeff question, but a thank you Feeling I'm gonna be in the minority here, but I am Gonna be opposed to this purchase And the reason is that I have taken a look at where our parkland is in the city And I think there's a real inequity And it's my you know my own district district one has an abundance of parks and the other districts district three in particular but You know going out the further reaches of district two as well Have no parks no playgrounds There is no place in walking distance that you know a family can can take their kids for a public playground or You know that there's public park access and The use of this $14,000 that closes out this fund and we're gonna see some real budget constraints over the next ten years We heard the other day about an anticipated hundred thousand to four hundred thousand dollar increased need and aging infrastructure in the wastewater water recovery facility per year over the next ten years in addition we've heard Over the past few months about how over the next 15 years we're gonna see our retiree population go from one third sorry one sixth of the population to one third of the population and so We are gonna have that much greater of a population that's on a fixed income and our ability to increase property taxes to pay for These services is going to really decline So I'm very concerned that if we spend this money now This is kind of our last shot at acquiring new parkland I think I don't think that there's gonna be appetite in future councils to spend more money Not just appetite, but ability, you know We may want to do those things but we're not going to be able to because we're gonna have these real oppressing infrastructure needs and so I Can't justify spending that last $14,000 to add to a park in an area of the city that already has so much access while, you know potentially precluding You know maybe adding some parkland along the future bike trail to put a playground over there Maybe doing a playground up in the Berlin Street area Maybe purchasing a piece of savings pasture if that were to become available to us and by spending this money now And I've checked with Bill and there's no deadline for us to spend this money We can continue to hold it in our in our pocket until one of those real pressing means comes up But by spending this money now, we're preventing ourselves from being able to address that in equity in the future So I in spite of the fact that, you know, I would love to see Some additional uses added to Hubbard Park. I don't feel that I can support this purchase I attended the park commission with the bicyclist John was at the whole meeting I came in late But I really understood from the bicyclist who joined mountain biking How much they actually travel city to city state to state hunting for trails that are significant And I've heard a lot about bikes wanting right away to the park and I'm one of those old users that refer them not to come into the path pass that are now Existing so I see this as part of a real economic development I mean, these are bicyclists that will come in and stay at our hotel and spend money So I'm leaning to supporting it. It's not that I don't want to see more parks everywhere But this is an opportunity that doesn't come very often to get more land There is a trails committee chaired by Tim Flynn and a number of members on it I'm involved in that as well to look at how we can create a more robust mountain bike and multi-use trail network around Montpelier and just to follow up on Donna's point. It is a significant economic driver of activity in Stowe weights field north field and then of course the Northeast Kingdom's kind of the poster child for northeast if not the US that we have really missed out on here and So there's a large group of mountain bikers And just not even talking about the recreational benefits for residents here to have and so there's a real link a missing link So the couple things I just talked for a while about that but just to focus on this parcel. There's a real Missing link from downtown. There's really no way to get from a mountain bike from the downtown This is an opportunity to avoid the kind of challenges mixed conflicts of users That exists by creating another route that would then go out towards the North Branch And then there's a proposal enough to build a trail network on the in the North Branch Park Which is pretty exciting and that could be a real magnet for People from the region. So this is a real critical piece. I think to that whole project Thank you, and if I can respond to a couple of your concerns This is something that the Park Commission I have thought through a while And I really appreciate your your interest in serving other neighborhoods And that's I will want you all to really know that is high on the Park Commission and my list and we've actually Sawed to do that a couple times and have been restricted from funding because one of the questions funders want to know is Not as is this the idea of the Park Commission and I to do something They want to know there's actually city support for something and until just this last year the Park Commission had a Greenland plan Now the Conservation Commission is signed on and they actually believe the Planning Commission has now accepted that as a document that makes it Part of official city plan to serve more in neighborhoods So that enables us to do this fundraising We've been restricted from doing because we haven't had a City document to this date. So now we're freed up to do that Before that just to hopefully to reassure you We added in the time I've been here when I first got here is 125 acres. There's now 400 acres. We added over 200 acres with only $2,000 of city funds. So this this does not represent There is a number of funding sources when it's clear that a city there's a city need in a city So that that will fund the purchase of Lands and the Park Commission and I have been Understood and maybe I'm incorrect and from what I understand of the park impact fee But our reading is that the park impact fee isn't used within a certain amount of time it does it it can be returned to If they request it so it makes it vulnerable and So it is Right, otherwise we keep it. So there's a certain amount of vulnerability. It's it's unlikely but it's But this is an important project So is it so it's fair to say that a Large portion of the acres that we've added were funded through Other sources of those are grants. Yes Okay, so yes And there to be honest there may be with the current administration there may be it may be harder to You mentioned maps at the Commission meeting they talked about the green print Yes, and I would be really helpful to share with the whole Council the Comprehensive look that the Commission does of the whole city. Yes The Park Commission has looked at the city from and the conservation Commission from a couple of different I've looked at the green prints and and that's where I'm getting my you know Oh my gosh, why are we focusing all of this effort and money on just this one portion of the city? It's clear from that green print that there is a huge amount. We could be doing for the rest of the city and and we plan on doing it and The we plan on doing this part. Well, I'm just telling you that this is kind of the last money I think you'll be able to get from the council on so and that's it's it's not is this a good thing is Is this the best thing that you can do with that 14,000 dollars, right? And the last thing I'll say on that Unless I'm asked is is part of what we want to do is the Hubbard Park is not just a neighborhood park, but it's really The park in Montpelier that attracts people. It's listed on TripAdvisor as one of the top reasons to visit Montpelier It's it's really attractive. You track people from out of state or town they come to the tower they come there and and One thing we want to do is make sure we take care of that well before we add Our estimation to take care of it well Looks to me like this is the sort of deal that probably takes a while to put together and you're being been very patient waiting and to find acreage that's Directly a but existing park at a price of just under $2,500 an acre seems like a pretty good value to me And I have no doubts that the parks director will use his drive and creativity to ensure that Other uses like bicycle usage or reducing conflicts in the park Will happen on this land. I'm comfortable moving to authorize the parks department to move forward with the purchase of Private property adjacent to Hubbard Park Second further discussion No Thank you, Jeff. We appreciate it and Rosie appreciate you raising your concerns. I know that's not always easy I Thank you all thoughts. Thank you, Jeff Okay, move to budget workshop So, you know, I sent out an email earlier today, we don't have a set plan It's really what you guys want to do. I didn't know if we wanted to move down to the table Folks come up to the front row We emailed out a bunch of presentations. We're not planning to go through them unless anybody Would like us to But that was there to prompt any questions that people have and you know, we took Didn't seem to be a long list of questions. We were asked before the holidays. So we just Everybody here and I'll just say to say I think you've done a great job putting this budget together I don't want to create an expectation that we're gonna spend a huge amount of time You know dissecting it I'll do within a certain figure that meets the council's policy objectives and it seems to me you've done that so Don't want to foreclose any discussion, but I also want to create an expectation Always spend today's Believe me, mr. We are we're not we're not demanding that you spend a lot of time To say But we we certainly understand it's our duty that the you know you folks will once you adopt this budget becomes the council's budget Not the manager's budget and to the extent that people have questions and want to learn more about it You know, we want to make sure we're available and set the side time side tonight with nothing else on the agenda to Have that conversation to the extent that you want to have it Rather sit on the I like that, but I know how resistant you are Well first of all, I Guess I would just echo what you said that this feels like a really smooth and functional budget process from my perspective We've set a goal and city manager has achieved that goal 1.9 with the assumption of a half a percentage growth and grand list additionally the scheduled increase to capital improvements is included in this budget I Feeling really positive about this process right now. I'm happy to take any presentations or Well, maybe just to kick it off I would remind you that there's two you know, I sent out the email one of them is a hundred dollar item for rightsville Right, you know, we can either just add it or I don't think that's a big deal But we did get the request for twenty eight thousand two hundred from Central Vermont public safety authority And I assume that they would want to come and talk about that, but that is not in the budget So if that were to be considered that would be a new item in the budget to be clear about that And we do have Green Mountain transit schedule for the 24th was the only time they could make it Bump them because of zoning they couldn't make it tonight or next week. That's the night that we would have that's the final So yeah, so I guess I would so I did ask them to give us some written information Just I really feel like we need to hear from the CVPS a if they're if they're now asking for a budget allocation I'm not comfortable given where they plan to come in Do we know when The email, you know, I got I was out last week it came in last week. I just forwarded to you Would need to schedule them would have to be the next week or yeah I'm not comfortable voting to allocate funding without hearing what the plan is because There is no plan right now that Any of us I don't think the council has been made aware of any new plan I read something in the Times Argus several weeks ago now, but that's all I've heard So if there's any request for more funding, I think they need to come with a pitch In this point before it because I agree with that I just out of respect for the department heads if I think we should use the focus this time And and if they do wish to present any relevant information But certainly I'm happy to have those conversations about specific Unknowns that the city manager is recommended in this proposal. I just wanted to make a line I just want to add my voice to that perhaps a stronger one Because I know there have been concerns that vary but just to say I will strongly oppose any effort to put that funding on the ballot I haven't seen any any rationale offered for it. And I think this is now A board that's in search of a mission The original mission hasn't shown itself to Pan out and there's no other communities that seem to be willing to support it And I would strongly oppose funding now. I don't Sammy said that I'm not sure we have any Board so it will be a matter of you know, I'm just making comments to the public I could have now looking in hindsight kind of regret having ceded that authority because I think it looks like it's I don't feel like it's being proposed responsibly to be funding Something that is far afield from the original mission of the authority So I would just join the concerns that have been expressed in Barry and say from my perspective I don't think it's a well thought out plan and I I would strongly oppose funding for that continued funding for the authority Donna The public safety authority has reached out and that tentatively agreement with the capital Mutual aid on which the capital west dispatch contracts are from So that we would have a three party We would be bringing them into the public safety authority to join mom pillion barry if they stay in And then what the capital west group is is about I'm going to say 31 towns 28 towns. It's somewhere in there towns that have joined together for far departments as well as for dispatch through the capital west contract at mom pillion dispatch police handle now but the Agreement would be that the mutual far aid the capital west mutual far aid would be the municipal joining us And we would work together on infrastructure of towers and equipment And that from there we would hope then to integrate more services So there is a plan that's going to be coming towards you And it is true. We prefer to have the support of the councils But we are our own entity and hence we can go on the ballot without your support, which we prefer not to And what that amount is is just to have the administrator there to facilitate the joining of Mutual far and a no far and mutual aid. That's the name Along with then going into the bonding and the bonding then is a commitment That you would have all the towns long term instead of on these short contracts that we now have So that's a short story That's I think the concern is that it's january 3rd And we're being asked to propose or at least to act on respond to the proposal that we still haven't seen A few short weeks and it just seems to me that is indicative of the problem with this authority that I mean It was well intentioned. I don't want to begrudge the incredible amount of work that went into Trying to make this work, but The fact is it just hasn't and I think at some point we need to stop putting good money after bad and say This was an experiment that we try to make work. It didn't and let's uh, you know call it a day Anyway, okay, so shall we I have some thoughts on other parts of the budget If we just want to jump right in So I was concerned we heard repeatedly that the building inspector is going to be over capacity this year And that's one that it seems like a pretty Hopefully an easy solve because if the if there are more things that need to be inspected. We're getting more fees in so Should that happen? We should have additional revenue and I wanted to talk a little bit about what our plan is for that so Could we use those could we plan to use if there's increased demand increased fees? Can we plan to hire a temporary or contract inspector or could we contract with a neighboring city or town to? Use their inspector for I just want to know who seems like an issue and I want to know what our plan is So we did spend a lot of time on that both Bob and Michael both here We we don't have any funding in the budget for that. We did just anticipate some new fees Some will hit this year some Some are actually going to hit during this current fiscal year When they pay the building fees even though the inspectors won't carry forward to the next year Um the strategy that we left our team with was bob action was working to get certified in building inspection and to provide assistance that we're already Handling um, and he's always going to stretch something to the fire department We want to do it within to see if we could do it within that way within existing resources, but I think a fallback plan would be to come back to the council some point Revenues or wasn't say We need to hire That was a one of the lengthier For the new council members by the way We've changed the way we do our budget in the last few years We used to be the traditional everyone handed in a budget and we went through it all and now we Actually lock it, but we put everybody in a room for about two days And it's all decided together and there's a lot of uh, it's actually great to listen to watch People say you need this more than I do and um, it's it's really worked very well But so our team struggled with this one and that was where we came down But they're both here if they want to speak more directly to it Yeah, just um, currently i'm scheduled to get the training for Right now the first two weeks of april at the national fire academy what we're doing is the um, Vermont division of fire Safety who traditionally is taught those classes. That's where chris got his training was through them They're not putting on a class this winter, but they're Looking Great, I just wanted to flag it because it kept coming up as a concern and and we heard it You know prior that this is going to be an issue, so I wanted to make sure we had a plan Then would be when I did then the major projects Would fall to chris so chris would do One Taylor's I would then pick up the smaller The decks and the garages and Throughout the summer. I would be responsible for the smaller projects It would relieve chris of his health officer chris is down the deputy health officer He would relieve him of his deputy health officer duties, and I would take all of those And um bob is currently the health officer, right? That's not clear So we're we're looking for a way to relieve chris. He can then focus just on those five or six main projects And I would okay that sounds reasonable and acceptable. I just wanted to Disappointing just the way the budgets work for for the funding as it comes in because you know, there's a chance We could get a really large amount of money In fees, I mean it could be You know $200,000 in fees that we could collect which would be more than enough to hire another full-time person But you know if all those applications come in in April, may and june that they're all in this fiscal year But we need somebody for next fiscal year and when we open those books We don't have the money because the money was actually booked in last year Well, I there's ways we can do I guess yeah, I would press that we would reserve that and yeah, so We think there's ways of of making something of having possibilities We didn't we didn't find a solution, but we did we're sure you were aware We're not sure how great it is There was also a mention in one of the memos about how the the junk car ordinance And the nuisance building ordinance Was increasing workload and so I would be curious at some point to hear back from you About bob about how much that was Um You know how many man hours that that was actually adding um, and you know the council had expressed some willingness to reconsider some of those In the future if it was proving too difficult. So yeah, I can talk to Keep it in mind that the big is gone No, that took a lot of christianity the economy took a lot of christianity. So that you know that has been cleaned up Um, I think it's 34 Berlin street the house That has been taken care of we're actively pursuing a solution to the situation on This route to the route to gallison hill We're actively pursuing some Means of getting that cleaned up and you recall the strategy that You all agreed to sort of prioritize the projects when we work at one when one gets cleaned up and gone to the next one So we're not really trying to handle multiple Properties And I don't think we've had a lot on the junk cars. We just said the one we just had one I just thought mentioned one of the memos so And we get you know Cages, no complaint from a neighbor of junk We had one on hubbard street that we were able to just Take care of So, you know right now we're able to take care of them as they come in You know the big You know the three big ones two of them are taking care of and you know, we have that situation We're trying to come up with a solution And the concern in the memo was really just to address the fact that moving into a a busier workload season means An already stretched thing means that this may be something that just gets almost no attention when Caledonia spirits and french block and the hotel and one Taylor street are all being inspected that That maybe Nothing happens in response to complaints Well, I would just um when I assume others as well would be interested in in hearing back from you You know if that turns out to be an issue and Please please give us your your feedback on that. Yeah, and I feel comfortable that this summer. I'll be with you And there's a few shifts going, you know, they're shift a few of my duties to uh chris hatburn Is our Chris Full time Shared between police and fire. She does ammo spilling shifting some of what I do Got minutes So that was the only specific concern that I had if others want to I have two other things I wanted to talk about I just wanted to acknowledge the community justice center I learned today Through my other life during the day that the cjc is starting some new Desperately needed programming in the washington county area And I I really commend the cjc for that and I commend the council over the years for investing In that the programming will be uh for domestic violence Offenders and it's such a necessary thing that we need here in washington county And the cjc here is stepping up to fill the need. So I I appreciate that I had a small, um police facilities Question or proposal and just wanted to verify with the chief. I know that um earlier this year There was a little bit of concern around Some facilities condition issues I'll just say my own In regards to three basic issues, but I wanted to just confirm that These were either being addressed or that you as a team had made a decision that they weren't high enough priority to make it in this budget Or if this council should Be considering making any adjust small adjustments to accommodate these the first being The flood resilience and I think that Without actually putting a rubber cap On a pipe There's a sump pump in a elevator shaft that if there was power being supplied with our generator We have redundancy there with the generator Um that we wouldn't have any water problems in the lowest levels of the police station um but there's A possibility that if well anyways that there's a possibility that water could enter the police station Was one the other is if that happens there's a fair amount of electronics computers and servers that are On that lower level Um and that potentially are vulnerable to those flood waters if there was some sort of a crisis or Emergent emergency situation it would Be really important that we probably have those you know those those would be remain intact and it would be fairly expensive to replace At the time it sounded like that there was a cost associated with relocating some of those electronics Maybe to a higher story or to the top story With the cost of at the time I think around under a hundred thousand or ten thousand dollars certainly um And then lastly that there were some ceiling tiles that had water damage and well well worn carpet In the station and I just wanted to raise those issues again and You know find out if those were included in this budget cycle or if those had been excluded They uh much of that for example as of even right today the community room is being repainted Um, and that's gonna that's happening right now. Then when that is done new carpeting will be in the community room Last year we already recarpeted the control room and then we did the full remodel of of communications the completing that project Is part of that money is also concluded in this year's six six thousand dollars. I believe in this year in fy 19 Um, so that'll at least have the carpeting Product complete as for the flood hardening We did a lot of with thanks to public works did a lot of research and try to evaluate what was happening So for example in the may flooding the flat flooding situation that we had in 2011 May of 2011 That was when very city public safety became an island and we Had two fire department had two pumps going in our basement And we were heavily concerned at a lot of things happening We identified that problem and Just from a perspective Uh, the water level was 17 feet down at the cemetery gauge during that flood That was a substantial flood downtown was flooded if you recall Um, and then when Irene hit after we've identified the problem we were bone dry and we were 19 feet So We We can there's no electronic sitting on the ground There was a proposal in place that was not acted on as far as our land lines And and the computer that supports those much of that information much of that system has since changed And uh, but we have not really we located all the electronics upstairs our radio system itself though is upstairs Is on the second floor So as far as that i'm pretty confident that we are and uh Pretty pretty pretty good shape as far as that goes I guess it's not really a question so much as um, I mean, I know the All all the departments really do great work. Um, uh, one of the things that I Would love to see and I don't this is like one of the few times the year that we see you get to talk about things in general Um, and so I'm just going to put my plug in for more graphs. Uh, just I want more data about like How how we're doing sure, um, and I don't necessarily see those in our report. Did I miss it? No I say them I say them for the annual report There um, so yes, but I do I do love I do love, you know, the more graphs the better Um, so real quick highlights You know looking now that I have a full year and unfortunately we had the armed robbery in the 27th, so My failure we kicked off 2017 with a murder awesome Marcus Austin and then we almost ended up when we got up within our robbery But everything in between was uh, it was really good So for example burglary across for the entire year cut in half 50 percent our total crime rate in my failure is down 13.3 percent These numbers are just absolutely outstanding. Uh, this is the first year in three years. We have not had an overdose fatality that we So it's It's things are um overall coming thing coming together considering You know, we technically have been understaffed for a year as well But there's some other things that we've had in place and some partnerships that have allowed us To be successful on the police side, but in any community the police don't get all the credit for that I mean, that's just one piece. It's but it's only our primary responsibilities to do what we can to control crime But it's everything from, you know, well engineered streets lighting But really an involved community That's where my copy with coppers have been such an important program for us saving the skunks that were trapped in the yogurt Pappas was really those human those are those human interests So but it's just and that is what I said, well all of that comes together You know the rec department everything and that's why back to when they'll talk about the budget congress We're so proud of this how we we do this because we know that it's not just any one of our departments that make my failure unique That it's it's how it all fits And that's something that we're as all departments. We're proud of so but those are some of the real big highlights From from the crimes the crime scene stuff and so I but I think the real concern and It hasn't really changed that much this year from last year But it's what's on the horizon it's it's not You know, it's somewhat bleak From the randomness of mass violence To the resources Of you know, how do we keep how do we keep supporting special events in my failure? Most are are non Crime related and are very peaceful, but that might not may not always be the case And our officers are getting burnt out You know did not they had not had weekends sometimes when when we've had this winter was particularly bad Just a lot from a political standpoint and a lot of protests a lot of rallies from climate to of course the The women's march that there may be an annual annual event I'm anticipating not to the same magnitude But nonetheless, you know the first things that we did after the women's march we we We had a homeless remote and security Emily Harris Do an after action review And I just talked to make people like good from You know our secretary of commerce former Burlington police chief Chief shirling and said like how did you do it when you had you know, 40,000 people in the water? And he said well, I get a lot of parallel cities streets, right? Yeah, a lot of things that we just don't have in my failure So Those are those are real concerns. You know nyp New York City is just adding 1500 You know bollards to prevent the nuclear assaults on various streets I know there's always conversations that People a lot of interest among players, but hey at some point. Do we make you know part of state street? You know a minor a mini church street You know a lot of that has You know a lot of safety potential to the for the better But these are these are considerations. I mean we haven't everything we do is based on What is the intelligence? What information do we have at the time? So you haven't seen You know a fleet of sand-laden dump trucks That could happen at any time in my failure. We need to be prepared for that. It's my responsibility as well as you know Chief gowens when we look at any of these big events What's at stake and we have to you know really be thoughtful And with the same time Also creating a you know anything that's going to have too much that balance of a military state of To to what makes one pretty unique and it's uh, and it's it's it's balanced and it's You know, I do the best I can to get it right And we've got our and so So that that is uh, you know the technology and Also, how long it takes to get a qualified police officer? And dispatcher, you know often trained when we lose one You know the vacancy that we we we have we're going to be filling with it by by taking up a dispatcher who wants to be a police officer And um, you know, so that'll be happening this year But but that vacancy occurred in june of 2017 and by the time she's on field training in the police academy And on her own will be the fall of And then also we have retirements on the horizon within You know less than three years You know that one of our detectives will be retiring at this date sometimes this year. That's a lot of experience You know, I'm going to be retiring within three years. The captain's going to be retiring within three years and So also I'm just concerned that do we have the right number of officers? As well as we have been able to Ever so slightly but increase bike patrol. We have two officers now that are on the bike That's something there was a time we had three officers dedicated by patrol. So it's And Although crime is is on the decline Right now, but again, we have to always make sure what can we what's going to be sustainable long term? And that's where the challenge really comes from as far as do we have the rosters and you know, I've expressed multiple times to the city manager and to the end of budget congress budget congress process That you know for f y 20 You know, we'll be asking for 17 police officer and understanding what that means financially I'm really glad that your graphs or data are so positive With safe catch and with all the opiate addictions. How is that going? You said no desks, but What's the rest of the story? Well, we have a meeting coming up next month with all the medical It's it's a I think it's quarterly chief volunteer will be joining me on that one as well um, but the last Work that I had from Debra Hopkins who's the director of the rants or several month subsidy services That they have they work a plateaued in other words You know, they're not seeing an increase of those seeking seeking treatment and they're meeting the demand So people are getting into counseling. Well, it's Yeah, but there's so many people that we just don't know if they're making it to counseling and and where the other challenge that we always have is that You know, there's still a breakdown when they get to corrections. Um, that do they get the psychological mental health support? I do they get the substance? Yeah, we have you know, we have drug court. They're safe catch. Um And and as I told this council many months ago, um after the you know, some of the Vermont pelican center asked What were we doing differently because of our burglary stats alone? And and then I also talked to Dr. Max Schluter about you know, who's a criminologist and um, and as far as What's happening the only real thing that we plant you know, probably we've done differently. We'll say catch I said don't discount that even though our numbers They don't even have I mean, they're really it's a presence. They're not exactly and it really, um You know, it's something that we're really proud of in my failure that we started it here Thanks. Thanks to bill and uh, and uh, 60 minutes quick, uh, we keep Campanello and Gloucester. Um, so and And that and what the success that we have had here that's been relayed to to burlington pd And and even to the governor himself directly back there, so It's it's firing on all cylinders again to make sure that we're healthy And you mentioned a bit about all the Demands of the state house and being here and the protests the marches and at one point we ask you to keep track Of overtime related because I think we really need to put that into our pilot discussions. Heavy time Is it so unreasonable for us to hold the full responsibility and cost of that? If you've got any numbers on that over time or can you Uh, well, we just gave uh, I give Bill a snapshot over time itself not just more of the special events Yes, okay special One of the things I will say is that the state police and the cap and the new chief at the cap with it at the state house But they've they've really picked up the pace, especially with my state police over several years Um, because You know, we certainly have been tapping into their resources special teams things like that more than with our protests and our and some of the We had a rolled an armored vehicle. It's not failure for the first time last last New Year's Eve But uh, New Year's Eve 2016 So we definitely it's a vented good relationship and I don't feel overworked there But it's just when you have 20,000 people or even 10,000 people or what's or if there's a problem associated with that Even all the state police. I mean it's 330. You know, there's just not a police option to go around. It's chronic problems But for my for my historically, uh, we have some of the smallest ratios of law enforcement. It's my understanding Um, for some of the the you know, it's just we're under funding field But because of some of the other challenges that we don't have we've been made to work But um, so it's gotten a lot better. Matter of fact The fire chief and I'll be sitting in a command post tomorrow for the state of the state. Um, but the role is really, um Yeah, we're there, but really as a support We're not we're not it's not, you know, it's not my baby anymore Kind of thing. I mean you talked about staffing and getting police officers And it's very hard to get police officers and dispatchers and every police Department in the region has the same issues and you borrow and steal from one another And the hope was regionally that would be be better to pull it all together And have a more sizable department and more professional development So that is still hovering out there as one of the positive of the regional system Yeah, there's uh, uh, it's good. It's senate s 273 It's going to be a bill as proposed for the session to talk about is basically, uh Spring boys off the the work that was done by senator jenette white, but she went around and I'll save you on the state And there is a lot of things there I know bill I were there for the and paco was there for the uh, that once the last one they had it back in november Talk about regionalization anyway, and we were not so much looking at the police conversation At least that was not our interest as it was obviously dispatch It uh In some in some regard yes, that you know, obviously a larger police department can do more with it. Um But but also what is what are you also inheriting with that? Um new geographic landmarks and what are their problems? What's their community makeup? And and uh, so people have to be clear eyed to well, you know, let's talk about the obvious We were at the very city Two very different communities with very different needs and very different cultures and both within the community as well as the police departments Um, so there would be definite Yeah, what you want changes and how some services have been delivered for a very long time could be impactful I'm not saying it's not like a bad thing and you but when you do that it has to be in such a way that you're um You know understanding of there's going to be some changes So, but you've also talked when there's burglaries there and there tend to be Drug sales here. So there's a lot of problems that we share And we are even though we're all different different departments. Um We were very closely with very city. We're extremely closely with Vermont state police and our federal partners Um, we have some very unique relationships right now that we've had the last several years Especially with uh, state police and drug task force and with etf and fbi Um, a lot of our drug crime most of our drug crime is not even prosecuted out of the washington county It's attorney's office. It's it's being handled by the u.s. Attorneys um Use attorney's office here in vermont and other states as well as the attorney general because of the drug task force Work will really push a lot of that But um, so just because we're different departments does not mean that that cooperative those cooperative efforts aren't happening You're still one staff under even after you fill that position, right? You'd like to have one more I would like to have one more but we we will be at our our our authorized Strength of 16 officers You know that are working out of that Just to add quickly to that is that the problem finding qualified police officers is not unique to vermont nor to You know size of it's a it's a national issue and actually we've been Probably more fortunate than others to be able to get close to a full load I know there are other vermont departments that are considered, you know down multiple people and you know Talk to my colleagues around the country. It's just something that comes up all the time. It's you know Look at the the controversies the stress is the demands. It's a tough job and um, you know It only pays so much and even if you do sometimes it's not about the money It's about the disruption to your life safety and in you know, no matter what you do Someone's going to say you're doing it wrong. So it's it's not easy and you appreciate it just I'd like to circle back to um Project safe catch and also coffee with a cup and just express my strong support for this sort of work. It's so important You are really doing all the community building. That's probably part of the reason we're seeing The reduction in crown rates It ties right into 21st century policing, which i'm also strongly supportive of um, particularly transparency and you know that openness with the community and I didn't know very briefly it um Facebook internationally has started to take some positions on either closing accounts or taking digital action in terms of Open and clear transparent communication for a variety of reasons Um, and correct me if i'm wrong. This came actually from a constituent, but they were saying you can um The Montpelier PD Facebook page doesn't as you can see how many comments have come in Right, but you've chosen not to do that and I assume there's a very thoughtful and deliberate reason. I didn't know if that's Yeah, there's some reasons one is um, it's to protect identity of victims of crime To also make sure we're protecting the judicial process Um, people are just playing nasty channel three took it off because it's all you know What you were seeing just this you were trolling the worst and and the last thing you want to do is have a person that may be You know Reaction as this person is guilty of x crime and whatever that comments are made You know and that may be your own building innocent person. That's one side the other is um You know, it is our it is our page It is not intended to show absolutely everything that our department does So that's why we choose to be constructive about it. Um You know, we have a complaint process. So when they're saying a legitimate or perceived legitimate Brevens or a complaint they can get a copy of the you know, how to file a complaint There's they're available in the clerk's office the city manager's office our department So that part uh, there is a clear um, it's in our policy as far as that goes Our social media is really just a way to push out information to the public That makes a lot of sense in hearing you describe Whole bunch of legitimate reasons why you would choose not to make those comments public I'm somewhat naive in terms of uh, the suite of products that facebook or other social media sites offer to federal state or municipal um law enforcement agencies does the current Do we does the city currently have a portion of our budget that's being spent on Information that you're receiving from social media sites. No Is that something in the future that is offered that you might want? No, we we looked at you know, obviously we're part of the city's website and it's one of those areas that Need to work on I need to work on or other folks. Um, we've got incredibly talented and committed team on the facebook piece We it's uh, sergeant normson oversees it. Um, and we've got three other people Underneath that But a lot of it is with any of these technologies and any systems. Um, they're the wonderful tools, especially for that You know the twitter even But there becomes an expert you create a public expectation of you know, are you receiving that information without regularity? So suddenly, you know, and it has to be Deep enough in terms of the people that are actually pumping out the information and receiving it processing it So you can just have like one person. Hey, I'm on vacation this week and all of a sudden boom. Hey, what's my player pd doing? Um, so it's one of those things.  Maybe I just want to make sure I was expressing myself clearly not so much Curiosity about like doing more social media posting or expressing not that there's anything wrong with that but other digital tools that are or may be currently available for cell phone tracking or any number any suite of new Digital resources that we do have and are available and I just was curious if that was anything that we're currently considering or exploring or Not A lot of a lot of the technology is being heavily controlled and regulated Almost to the point of a detriment depending on what's like you said on I mean at the ACLU is sitting right here being a conversation Uh, but we all know there's uh, what isn't in particular We don't have license plate readers in my failure And state police just phased them out because they can't afford it Just not that it's a bad tool, but they can't afford to keep up with the maintenance of these Again, the government pumped out a lot of it money for some of the technology, but then the now all some of the maintenance contracts are on Um, so and we're not a borders. We're not a borders, you know, city Uh, patient recognition with the part motor vehicles. That was another you know, the challenge and drones is another one just Um With the troubles of drones now, it's just absurd unless there's so you know an exited situation We get them off clear police mode does not own a drone or use a drone And anything else that we do is any technology that we may have our and we would use that technology Other questions for department heads Sitting on it. Yeah, Rosie. Um, so I guess this is a Sort of for everybody. Um, I noticed um reading through the reports. Um The performance measures for some were wonderful and as particular I wanted to highlight it I really liked those performance measures. They're clear. There are things that it is responsible for Um, and you can see, you know, if they Accomplish them, then they're doing well if they don't then they're not Um, there were some other performance measures included though that were things that departments didn't really have control over Um, or were things where anything less than 100% would be complete failure Um, so I just want to say for next year, um, to I'd like to see a little bit more tweaking of those So that they really reflect What the department specifically is doing? Um, and how well they're doing it versus other things outside of their control Or just like the baseline job responsibilities. Um, so I'll just just Thank you for actually for saying that with everybody listening Um, we've we've struggled with performance measures. Um, since we've tried to implement it, um, you know, we don't have Just kind of what the chief was saying about, um You know keeping up with social media We don't have a lot of staff to really spend a lot of time doing measure at work the way it really can be done Well, um, Jesse Baker was a sort of performance measurement expert It was a tool she brought with her from her prior position So we tried to have her implement it. You know, we didn't ever quite get it And we're still working on it But I think it's we I really see it as it's it's a tool for the departments to manage themselves and I think We're still struggling to find what's a reasonable amount of things to measure that's actually useful to the departments that Oh, by the way, has the added benefit that we report to the council and public and say here how we're doing on this and So we've gone in our discussions Is you know all the way from let's just phase this out unless it's useful to you individually to let's pump it up and ramp it up So we're kind of at that juncture right now. So we appreciate hearing Whether it's useful. I do find them useful if they're things, you know, that that Mean something that means something in addition other those other pieces of information can be useful data points But I just they're not so for example Let's see The assessor's office says the number of buildings built That's important information for us to know but the assessor's office doesn't really have any control over the number of buildings built So we're not going to judge them, you know, if there were fewer buildings and they can't really have a target for number of buildings built So that's should should still be included in the reports, but not as a performance measure Would be my personal opinion Um, not to pick on the assessor's office Doesn't it tell you what how much time they spend don't they have to spend time on those? I think it's an important data point to know, you know, but I I wouldn't judge them You know if if their target was eight buildings built and we only had seven buildings built They didn't fail. I know I understand that but I'm just talking about how they spent their time Why they might not have done some other things because they had a busier year this year than last year Um, and then I wanted to make a comment that I noticed throughout There was a general feeling from the department heads that they were being Asked to do more and we're we're taking on more big projects Um, and I felt that as well kind of looking at our our future And in a city that isn't growing in population. I think that you know, we kind of have a responsibility To take a step back and say well, we can't really do more. You know, I would love to have Whatever amenities all over the city, but if we don't have a population that's growing to support that we can't Continue to add more projects and add more projects all of which have all this enormous upkeep You know, they have ongoing costs and so I just want to put it out there to the department heads that um I think there is going to be a point that we need to kind of Re-evaluate some of those things that we have been doing And take an honest look at future proposals If we don't grow in population To say look, we can't do everything So if there are You know things that we have done in the past that you as department heads don't feel are Continuing to benefit, you know, a large portion of the population Next year when we come around to this point, I think it would be really Helpful for the council to hear about those things and I'm certainly really open to hearing about What can we let go of in order to allow us to continue to do everything we want to do So those are my comments I'd like to hear from the community services just if you Parks and recreation and senior center Those are the three right Just want to hear more personally in reading this it's a lot of very specifics, but it doesn't give me an idea about How you've experienced the past year As this new form entity, I guess I want more of a subjective Some comments. How has the year been as a as a unit? Working together. Thank you. Yeah, um so I think Revisiting the primary goal of the community services integration was to improve the effectiveness and efficiency of the services that we're offering to the public And I think really on both of those fronts We've been doing an excellent job. I think first and foremost It sort of gave us the Kick in the pants if you will that we needed to start working together more closely To better serve the public We are now working very closely together.  They can now hear about all the services provided by all the departments with one phone call We're sharing a database now that makes Our work easier and provides better services to the public We have one program guide that has all of the programs that we offer um and We've been able to do more together in terms of staffing so Where one department may not have had a specific expertise Like in facilities management or in fundraising. We've been able to do that across the entire community services department also when One area has more demand at a certain time of year Say during summer camp recreation. We're able to shift our services because maybe that's A wider time for one of the other staff people. Um, so we're able to flex The ways that we weren't able to before um that have been really really powerful That's that Dan covered a lot there Um, one of the other things that was that has come along too now is we can take credit cards in-house On the the senior center used to use the square But the system we have now with rec rec track We can actually Run the credit cards right into the system So it goes right to the payment of the household that's made it And then we run a report at the end of the month and figure out The credit card fees that have been processed through the record through the senior center So now it's not doing two separate areas of figuring out how much credit cards came through The register that the senior center used to use it's all right in one database Well, and that's an example, um Of an area where one department was doing something And accepting credit cards and doing online registrations with credit cards and we can able to take that across So now um, if you want to book a part shelter you can pay with credit card Couldn't do that before if you want to sign up for a rec program online and pay with credit card You can do that. There's no convenience fee. Yeah, it's really um easy for people. Oh, let's see. We had a great year in the parks and See we did our first ever summer park festival, which is uh, This was a wonderful thing People enjoyed that and we had our best ever chanted forest this year Yeah, a lot of volunteers and a great cooperation from rep and senior center and Can you see there's just the damage It's slowed down dramatically Um, but and it's looking like a good winner. It was a good year a number of challenges Do you find some group marketing going on when I attend the parks commission meetings? I still feel like the park commission itself is so isolated Has that improved? I remember jesse baker was there a couple meetings trying to Connect the commission more with other kinds of services That the city offers. Do you think they're getting support? Our commission is doing what they do well What I think potentially could be even better and uh, we've talked about this, but we haven't tried it yet Is having a representative from other ways I remember not too long ago We were sitting around the table trying to frame out what this idea of community services might be and there was Understandably some apprehension about how that whole process would unfold and I'm glad to hear that there definitely sounds like some positive things that are coming out of this cooperation and synergy and also would Hope that if there are parts that aren't working that you know need to be worked out or looked at again That please encourage you to come and let bill or whoever is appropriate to Resolve those because with any new systems or benefits and there are things that could be better. So Please feel free to do that and Really what you're doing is the icing on the cake here in montpellier if you ask most people What they like best month about montpellier. It's probably something that you guys have your finger on Thank you for what you're doing Weather keeps up. We should have a nice skating rink pretty soon People are very excited about that Any dissension from A few decision makers Thank you for that arm for your help with that project Any other any other questions from these folks? Oh, thank you. Yeah, thanks very much for all your work for the residents All right other questions Well, this might be a good time to talk about this since we seem to have a little bit of time Is uh, we had had a conversation briefly about increasing the council's pay and we talked about maybe increasing it I think maybe john you weren't sure that night. I haven't been here for any discussion. Um So there wasn't a brief discussion about Maybe increasing it at least to the amount where someone could pay a babysitter for the Number of hours that they were in actual meetings to try and make the council something that would be Accessible for people from a wide range of walks of life to serve on And so I did a back of the envelope calculation that last year the council had full council meetings of about 110 hours Um, so I just wanted to throw that out there that I'd done that calculation Now, of course, everyone is also serving on subcommittees as well and that doesn't address all the hours that you spend Reading and prepping for the meetings. Um, but I wanted to put that out there as a piece of information I also asked, uh, the high school kids what the going rate is for babysitters and they said it's $20 an hour We'll see and that's just about Anne said she'd like to earn as much as a city council member as she does as a coach At the high school. Yes. So that's about the same ballpark as a coach. Yeah Well, I'd be reluctant to wait in on this if I wasn't Not going to personally benefit from it as I would have a pecuniary interest But given that I won't be serving after the next town meeting day Um, I will say that I think it is important To allow people of all socioeconomic levels to participate the amount of time that I personally have invested in this is certainly eye-opening in terms of the commitment and what it takes to To participate in this way Certainly something that you have to want to do Or no amount of money would probably make it worthwhile Using those two pieces of information. It looks like it would put it at about 2200 Sounds like what you're proposing Do we need to decide this tonight? Presumably the mayoral salary would be higher as well as it has been in the past Given that there's greater Responsibility what you will need to decide at some point is if you're going to have more money to budget and it is Those are specific ballot items The amounts so when we so we have All of this has to be decided by the 24th Why are those Quarter reverts, why are they separate ballot items? They're just political. I think It has it goes as far back as I can see in The legal basis, I think it was probably more of I think it's done in most communities. I don't know what the legal basis is other than You know rather than the council setting their own pay. They recommend it and the voters approve it But I don't you know the school board's on there too Although I don't you know if they will be under their new convenience I certainly think it's best practice to put it before the voters They have a right to know the people who are serving them are giving themselves a raise I would just add anecdotally that this year. I believe the city council's discretionary budget has been reduced by 50 or 60 percent some significant amount Which would more than cover I think in true dollars the proposed increase Essentially not increasing the cost to taxpayers as the savings will be found by reducing travel or other expenses that I don't know specific line items, but overall the council previously has been budgeted And I was somebody asked if we needed to decide this tonight, and I think the answer was I think I'm wrong about 20 dollars an hour I should go back and ask That doesn't sound right I used to I used to be more than that and not much more than that but more than that often And I was almost 20 years ago, but so please do continue to reach I'm gonna I'm not convinced about Tony, but um, yeah Um, I would also say that from my position I would rather that the council spend less money on Meals for meetings and that kind of thing, you know those sorts of kind of Those extras which I think are what makes up most of the council budget. I don't maybe some of its photocopying that kind of thing So some of those more discretionary things I would rather we take the money from that and put it into salary so that someone deciding whether or not they can afford to Do this could look at that salary number and say yes, I can Make this commitment versus not knowing, you know, you're going to get your Meal of the retreat paid for that kind of thing. So I don't know what the math is Part of the council's budget is also part of the cost allocation system So is it not it's not the council because I saw some numbers about staff time so Given what allocation the cost allocation system that Sandy had every Every department including the council had to share its cost of the overhead I don't think we Haven't had too many sandwiches Well, no, but there's a large there's a amount budgeted and we haven't gotten We've left a lot and I think that's because we've had fewer sandwiches. So it's advertising Communications those kind of things some of our dues and subscriptions to various organizations We had had a line for other purchase services, which was quite high. That's the one we really knocked down printing and binding travel transportation's been about the same meetings and then miscellaneous We dropped 1,400 to 700 because we don't spend a couple hundred a year before that's probably the meals stuff We really don't spend a lot of money But the same reasons that you mentioned someone you're going to have to meet a 530 like I can't do it because we Let's eat that Last fiscal year I'd like to see us do more professionals though like that Well, I don't feel like we need to make a decision on this tonight, but I just want to have it be part of Is there I mean, this is something that I'm interested in talking about. I mean this is I'm I guess I'm wondering if there are other people that are interested in hammering out a number that would make sense and we can come with a proposal So if you like someone's got it Someone's got to figure out what's the right number and we've even had a citizen or two bring it up Right, so I think it would be good. I'm interested in it. Okay. Should we have a chat about that and come proposal and we can go from there Okay Yeah, I mean we can We can run that out to you. You know just using the numbers you gave us compared to what you know, what budget impact could be compared to It's 1500 now, right? Or a thousand a Hundred a month $4,800 if you choose 2000 as a basis for example I just was 100 hours at $20 That's 2000 so from 12 on to 800 for six people that's $4,800 and mayors at 3,000 So if you bump that up to 3500 or something like that, you know, we're talking $5,300 total When was the last time it was increased? Not that long ago Within say three or four years that I don't It was before John, but it wasn't long before John. It was maybe just a year or two before John Jim shared and pushed it as he was leaving office And it went up I think it had been I want to see it was a thousand and 2,700 and it went to 1200 and You could also use the annual increase in wage inflation for ramon over that period of time as another metric for establishing a fair and justifiable increase in salary I tell you the mayor say anybody who's running for mayor, I'll just say who's doing that for the money Priorities are miscarried But it does raise a valid point that there's a barrier to entry for some people That's financial A couple hundred dollars is a step in the right direction, but probably won't make much difference But that is the luxury that we have yes, true Recognize that yes, okay other issues for tonight I know usually you say these sort of comments for the council reports, but since we have the department heads I just really want to thank you all for the good work you do and this last week DPW was out with the broken main line the cold cold. Thank you very much Our department was out kudos. The police had an arm robbery.  So thank you all very much Structure fire as well Okay, great So as we wrap it up the budget then what You've got the CVPS a which will be kind of a separate issue Is there the only pending budget adjustment issues possible council pay is that what I'm hearing No, I mean, that's fine. I just wanted Well, actually, I do have I'm sorry. I forgot you have one other question Which is something that we have talked about in the past Was for the next fiscal year doing Re-examining our ordinances and that that was going to require some additional legal fees And I just want to confirm that There's nothing in for that Uh, that's that's something that I would want to consider You know, because it is it is Sort of an inherent Foyble of the process that we are setting The budget now for next year's goals And if we think that that's something that we want to do I would want to I mean, that's something that we sort of pulled back from this year So, you know, if if that's what it takes just if we could get an estimate for what you think it might Cost to add that in that would I think that would really help No matter how many, you know, if we could do some or what sure. Yeah Tony when we mentioned looking at ordinances before you talked about An intern that would really be massive undertaking. Do I remember that? Yeah, but I have no idea before legal just to Do some of the processing and pulling things out I just think about the pain of the job one of the goals Is And a good example of that was We all and staff take as much hit on this as everybody but We set a goal of being more restorative and incorporating restorative justice whenever we could in ordinances and then we passed You know the the building demolition ordinance and we didn't put any restorative options in there at all So, you know, again, I think we've got We've got to look through and We can use the league too. We don't we have a membership there for a reason to a point They don't they'll give you a quick advice if they if they do a more significant review You still pay them Okay for additional service. It just seems like the initial level might not need the lawyer versus the last So it's a lot of a lot of time for somebody. Oh, but you could potentially come back to us with some estimates. Okay. Thank you All right, we're also there Okay, council reports rosy Uh, I don't pass Just an early warning that uh on January 31st, there will be like a tree festival That the tree board is putting together so Looking forward to getting more details from them about that, but just wanted you all know January 31st I've already said thank you to everybody Best all right, well, that's quick Uh, I just had one thing that bill and I talked about the annual report We voted on our consent agenda a couple weeks ago to continue doing an electronic basis To approve the bid and he and I talked beforehand about whether we ought to Put something out to the community to ask how they'd rather how they would like to receive it my sense is that people don't Read it, uh, but we do have ironically these boxes that we do order that that's it because they don't go to everybody And so people just don't think to go get one So I I've suggested maybe we put something out in front porch forum or some other way just to ask people what they think Do we want to go back to getting hard copies or do we like the idea just doing it? I know it's a lot of resources, but I also don't think they get I don't think they get read so That's the trade-off What was interesting with the bid it cost us as much to have printed copies with the digital and to have just Digital maybe we don't need as many, but I think we should always have us a few I think the issue the real issue is You know we'll probably if we continue the way we're going we'll probably just can keep Calibrating until we get the right amount. What's the right that announced gonna be not very many right? Um, and it's in over time. It's gonna be less and less. I think well Typically the older population that asks for the books versus delivering them to the homes There was some sentiment that when they just showed up people looked at them and read them Even if just for a few minutes was like oh City government, but the counter concern was a lot of wasted paper. They got thrown away or you know recycled or whatever and You know are they worth the value? So a few years ago the council we saved a little bit money But a lot of it was also for environmental reasons to just cut back and go the electronic version, but You know it's harder to tell. I mean whether people are actually going online looking at it or whether they're You know we do have leftover books in the places we put them out and we've got tons of them here still so So I think that's the question Yeah, no it is I guess if there's maybe just a prominent question Maybe we just asked jamie to put something out of forge for me good feedback and see what people want to do facebook and facebook Yeah, exactly. That's the different but that again, you miss the people who are most likely to want that's Well and the bridge article then Maybe the other place to put it. Yeah Well, we have some of the most engaged and informed citizens here in montpellier But I think thomas jefferson really said it best when he said the nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization It expects what never was and never will be And so the more that we can put the information out there to help people be even better informed So much the better Should mention I would just mention that we you know our office is probably the number one place people come for that and we haven't We haven't really had any issues with people complaining about it not being delivered Should we ask or should we just You know another way to frame the question is Uh Where would you expect the annual port to be available? Uh, because it might actually be really convenient to have it at I think some people expect it to be at the library Probably like if there are places throughout the city where we can be dropping them off You know thinking at cafes or the co-op or you know places where people are just sitting That those might That I mean that's going to be tops 20 copies But just knowing if If people would appreciate to having them at those locations That's a great idea in the pass-through rate to rate is huge if you put it 10 copies in capital grounds You're going to get way more participation than mailing 20 copies to 20 individuals Ask it open ended like that like where would you where in the community would you expect to find? Yeah, you could I mean if you're just doing a google form You could leave it open ended and let people submit their own answers or you could have check-offs Check boxes like if you had some places that we and then other And what or you could list let's say you list 10 your top three places to pick up Have to focus Yeah Here in the first office post office post office and also I just want to say a couple things I All probably read in the paper of my new big causes election security I went on got certified as a penetration tester. It's a very cool title it's Certified ethical hacker. So anyways, I'm all about that But the other thing I just wanted to mention Which is that you all and everybody who's listening is Invited to a party that I'm going to have here Upstairs my 50th birthday party. I'm in serious. I have serious mortality issues So I figured the only way to deal with it is just to have a blowout open to the public It's going to be February 17th upstairs going to have a cash bar I've got distribution rights to show stop making sense and when that's not playing there'll be music It could be great. Everybody mark your calendars. You won't be able to miss it by the time I've done with it But you all are the first to know I was going to say hello if I could stop Although stop making sense kind of goes with the job, doesn't it? Just that next meeting all we have on the agenda right now is the TIF discussion and wastewater Recovery and we're not sure how long that part will be after We're It is pretty complex and we're So we're trying to figure out Where we're at with that and you know, we're having the same questions some of you. Well, I think tiff as well Yeah, well, sure. It's we weren't going to get that at the last minute. Yeah, yeah Well, we're working on tiff now But so the good the point is that's all we've got so if you want to talk and if the wastewater stuff is shorter than anticipated We're considering all options including requesting delaying that because we're not as satisfied with all the information either so But we haven't decided that yet So if that's the case, so just we'll give you an update on where we're at and what we're thinking and You know so Sneak previews that could considerably open so any of this budget stuff we could finish up next week Trying to say so we'll try to get some of these answers and you could have a short meeting Which is fine. So we have four meetings this month. I don't think we have to go guilty about We don't have one on the 17th, so We're still holding that third. Well if we need it So we can we let the 17th go? Tell me Decided our next meeting. Okay. We'll decide next week. Yeah, but but the 17th is not a regular. It's only a if needed All right with that objection. We will be considered adjourned at 9 10