Welcome to the second day of our virtual symposium. So today we are celebrating the World Water Day. And for sure this symposium become very timely as we will still and having these conversations on cool insights for a whole world. And please remind, we would like to remind you that now we are talking about the policy actions which also will be interesting topics for you all. And first of all I would like to check to Nairobi. Peter, are you there? Nairobi is ready, yes. Okay, thank you Peter. Okay, for the first speaker today, we will present Professor Maine Van Rotwijk from the World Agroforest Center and also the University of Hohanning and Andrawijaya.  But Maine, the floor is yours. Thank you, thank you Le. Yes, so we understand yesterday there were some problems for people to follow the live stream and we apologize for some of the technical shortcomings on that. But I hope we can get back an overview of what happened yesterday for those who could not follow and we hope today we'll have even more people following online and through the part. So the program we have on our cool insights for the hot world. Yesterday we discussed a number of points for that. We received a number of feedbacks within the symposium part and also separate by email and I'd like to share a few of those. I thought it went very well, raised some interesting issue. It's very brave, thanks more tomorrow. I was online last night from Hobart in Tasmania and I thoroughly enjoyed this symposium. Some comments that you might want to consider for a follow-up. To what extent do current global models include forest effects on rainfall at the local scale already? If not, that seems to be a real important thing for future to make sure that is represented and I applaud the efforts to explore this but the idea that planting and managing forest for distant water outcomes seems fraud, seems to be even more complicated than the carbon story so we need further discussion on how that could happen. Then somebody else said, well, I followed the presentations, I like it and I would like to ask if these presentations are available. Yes, we promised by early next week, Monday or Tuesday that all the cleaned up presentations will be online so we can continue the discussion then. The person said, I've been working in a basin in Kenya and there's still a lot of stuff to follow up on. I'd like to work with you. I have a student, could they be involved in what we're doing? That is the type of response we were happy to see. So yesterday, within our overall cool insights for a hot world we started with the first block of speakers that talked about how is this related to the global climate convention and what is the big story of that full hydrological cycle and what do we know about what happens in clouds and how they are formed. And the second block went more to the relations in the landscape itself and the changes in tree cover. What does it mean for evapotranspiration? What can be learned from the trees themselves, how they respond and how do we understand that balance between the rainbow, the green and the blue water. So in the first block we started with Daniel Murdiaso who explained that the current climate convention is really focused on greenhouse gases and carbon but under the adaptation chapter it's possible to bring in the type of things we discuss here and he shared five cool insights on forest and water that were shared in a brief last year where we focus on the first three of them in this meeting here. Then David Ellison, the lead author of the paper that we're discussing here basically took us how we need to go from an understanding of watershed management and water balance that has rainfall as a given and has evapotranspiration as a loss how we need to move to an understanding of the full hydrological cycle, the hydrological space and that evapotranspiration is not a loss but a recycling and that we can actually ask that question where does rainfall come from that it has spatially explicit answers and it doesn't come from nowhere we need to bring that into the story. Then Cindy Morris took us to an exciting tour of how we understand clouds and how we understand clouds of different temperatures and how the formation of ice that is the start of rainfall depends on biological agents like bacteria that many of you may have never heard before which are an important part of the story. So it's not about plants only it is about plants and their micro flora. Then in the questions we had interesting discussions on the technical detail of what is that ice nucleation etc. And then we gradually moved on if we can change the rainfall who has the right to do that etc. So give very brief answers here there will be more detail on the website later on but I think the discussion started from the technical and went towards this issue of can we optimize land use if it is no longer only about carbon but all these other things how can we do that. Then in the second block we had we focused quite a bit on the work in East Africa Michael Marshall took us through maps of land cover change in East Africa not just forest, non-forest with many different degrees of tree cover and showed maps of where we can see statistically significant feedbacks between vegetation and precipitation. Oster followed up with that with work on the three rings so how the trees themselves tell the story of historical part and how if we take a study site somewhere in Ethiopia how we see strong spatial correlations with aspects of climate quite far out into West Africa so that it brings us to that point of the teleconnections and in my own presentation I focused on the concept of the teleconnections how is what the rainfall at some place dependent on what happens with land cover somewhere quite far and we found three places specifically interesting the Amazon, the African relation and the Southeast Asia part and we came to this point that we really can and should change the narrative if we can start with issues about temperature and water we are much closer to the hearts and the heads of the people on the ground and we need to explore that whole space to policies from that reality on the ground. In our discussions we had questions on the technical side on the time lags involved and how complicated these spatial analysis are that trees themselves are already suffering from climate change in parts of Ethiopia that water is a greenhouse gas functionally but not in the way that we do the accounting of that and that this point of these precipitation sheds the spatial areas from which rain originates can be a very powerful way of starting discussions at the policy level at the same time we don't know all the fine details of that so we ended up with this question about do we know it all, do we know everything of course the answer is no and scientists like that because that's our job to find out more about the things that we don't know about but do we know enough to act on and I think that is really the hot question for today and the final discussion we'll come back to that so today as a preview we'll have in block three we'll have Jan Pogorny and Douglas Shield Jan will focus on this question that these really are cool in a literal sense and Douglas will take us through the theories that forests themselves generate the flow of atmospheric moisture that causes rain after that we'll discuss those two and then we'll have the final block three speakers that relate what we do here to the practice of restoration to the forest and water policy and to the research programs that is hosting this part where we will talk about linking knowledge and action and come back to this point do we know enough or do we need to know more about it so that is as a brief wrap up of what we did on the first day and hopefully feed into what we will try to achieve today thank you very much indeed it was very insightful and also providing us like a clear picture what we will do for today so let me introduce Douglas Douglas are you there I hope you can hear me okay very well yes very well can you hear me yes very clearly good very good okay welcome Douglas and the floor is yours so today I'm going to talk about forests and rain and I'm going to particularly focus on some exciting new ideas that I think bring new opportunities so it's not hard to justify an interest in water already during the 20th century global water use that's what are used by people has increased around six times we are in a situation now where around two thirds of the world's population already experienced some shortage of water for more than a month every year and we live in a world where already half a billion people a huge number of people face water scarcity as a daily problem there are of course other concerns with water not just water scarcity but also the problems of droughts when we have too little rainfall and floods where we have too much these have also caused significant hardships many millions of deaths over the last century and some billions of people needing emergency assistance so reliability of rain scarcity of water major global concerns so in this graphic I just showing you a little bit about the global water cycle the units here are in thousands of kilometers cubed per year so these are huge volumes of water so first let's just look at rainfall over land is about 113,000 cubic kilometers per year and that is the water that is falling on the land surface out of the atmosphere so where does that water come from? well some of it comes from the ocean this is water that evaporates off the sea and into the atmosphere and then is carried by the winds over land to fall as rain over land and that's about 40,000 cubic kilometers per year but what I really wanted to highlight in this slide was that actually the largest number comes from off the land surface so that's water that's evaporated off the land surface maybe after rain or is transpired by vegetation out of the soil and into the atmosphere so the majority of rainfall that falls on land is actually originating in water that already fell as rain on the land previously so this water is recycled is key to understanding rainfall of course these ratios vary across the planet so if you're in an oceanic island most of your rainfall probably comes from the ocean but if you're far inland in the continent quite often we'll find that a lot of the rainfall that falls is actually water that's already fallen more than once and is re-evaporated into the atmosphere and what you see in this map of the world is one summary based on various data sets suggesting where this recycled water is most important and that's the dark red color is where the ratio of recycled is particularly high so you see that that includes large areas of heavily populated land including China including large areas of the Sahel in Africa and also parts of South America and those parts of South America are places that have been recently experiencing quite severe droughts over the last couple of years so forests are a particularly effective source of atmospheric moisture a lot of the rain that falls on forests will actually re-evaporate back into the atmosphere and what we see if we look at the summary figures of course it varies from place to place it varies with the forest but generally forests are much more effective often as much as 10 times more effective than other vegetation types, low vegetation grassy areas, crops and the like at actually re-emitting water back into the atmosphere a lot of tropical forests for example will actually evaporate more than a meter per year and some even more than 2 meters of water equivalent per year and this is actually more effective because it's about twice the evaporation than we get off open water areas and they're able to do that because of the high leaf area they have in the canopy high up in the canopy of the forest and it's a bit like why you hang your clothes on a clothesline to dry rather than laying them flat on the ground when you hang them up there's more wind there's more movement the air actually manages to carry more water out of your clothes hanging on the clothesline that's like the leaves on the tree you can think of trees as being a bit like machines so here's just an interesting observation based on data that if we look at transects in different parts of the world and look at how rainfall declines as we go inland from the coast we see some different patterns so here in this bottom figure you see annual rainfall this is in meters in different parts of the world and if we look at these yellow transects first in different parts of the world as we move inland away from the ocean we generally see a decline in rainfall and this is pretty much what you expect as you go inland there's less water because some of it has fallen as rain yes some of it recycled but also some of it when it falls on the land surface will disappear through rivers and as we go inland there's less and less moisture to recycle so places become drier and drier so we get this more or less exponential decline with distance of course in reality there's little jumps and glitches due to the fact that the land surface is varying and it's not perfectly flat but these are the fitted curves that you get with these data yet if we look in other parts of the world where we get more or less continuous forest in from the coast so for example in the Amazon basin that's A up here, this line here instead of seeing this near exponential decline as we go further inland we actually get constant or maybe a slight increase as we go inland similarly in the Congo and across the wet forests of the Congo we don't see this sharp decline and also in Siberia we have these huge massive forests as we go inland rainfall does not decline sharply with distance at all but stays more or less constant and even increases slightly in this data set so this is an empirical observation this is not about theory this is about what we actually see so to actually try and explain this pattern maybe one of the suggestions might be that forests actually may be attract rain this is something that people believe in various parts of the world but if you actually talk to climate experts this is not what you see in climate models in climate models we don't have a clear mechanism that would allow that to occur how would it be that forests could draw in rainfall we can't really try and understand how rain gets into continental interiors if we don't really understand how the atmosphere carries that moisture in so we have to really talk about wind so typically when we talk about wind we have really one explanation for where winds come from as in this diagram we see that the land surface warms up over the day and as that happens the air gets hotter and expands and will rise like a hot air balloon will rise and when it does that the air pressure drops beneath and that draws in the cooler air off the oceans and as it draws in that air that air will pick up moisture off the ocean and bring that moisture in with it and as that air rises warms and rises any moisture will actually condense as the air rises and cools and as it condenses and cools forming clouds and potentially rain over the land surface so we see this system is how we understand how wind carries moisture in from the oceans to fall as rain over the land surface and this is really an idea that's been understood for a very long time basically since the 17th century when Edmund Haley first described it as the theory for global circulation understanding of the trade winds and since that time maybe our understanding has become a bit more sophisticated in terms of rotating planet etc and the different cell systems but basically it's the same idea the idea that the atmospheric motion is driven by the difference between the warmer parts of the world particularly the tropics and the colder parts of the world such as the polar regions which are redistributed redistributes itself with these temperature gradients but perhaps temperature differences are not telling us the whole story two colleagues of mine, physicists, Anastasia and Victor came up with a theory that's actually more relating to how water vapor changes in the atmosphere becoming a gas or becoming a liquid whether it evaporates or whether it condenses and the effect that this has on global atmospheric pressure gradients and they've used this theory to actually explain how wind can be generated by condensation and we have called this theory for short the biotic pump because it's so important for understanding how forests are related to winds and I won't have time to go into the physics today but just to say that it has been peer reviewed, these ideas have been published in many physics journals, here's just some examples of those and we have an increasing number of publications also in climate journals which says that people at least are taking these new ideas seriously so one of the implications of this theory is that areas which actually have the highest evaporation also develop the lowest pressure and that this draws in moist air and allows wet areas to maintain themselves as wet through a positive feedback effect and this is important in understanding the behavior and dynamics of tropical ocean storms hurricanes, cyclones, typhoons and the like and it's also important in understanding the climatic effects of forests and how forests influence rainfall patterns and that of course is going to be the focus now to try and briefly explain how it works here's a diagram of a vegetated land surface beside an ocean so the vegetated surface here there's some moisture evaporated into the air but it's relatively low whereas over the ocean there's reasonably high amounts of moisture coming off the ocean being evaporated into the air so we will find on average that condensation occurs sooner here over the ocean because there's more moisture and when condensation occurs air pressure will drop, when air pressure here drops it will draw the atmosphere from elsewhere and any moisture it contains with it and as it is drawn in we have a process called convergence where the air starts to rise and any moisture it contains will also condense so it creates a positive feedback maintaining the rainfall over the ocean and drying out in this diagram the land surface ok so if we have forests the situation is reversed the amount of evaporation of the ocean is the same but the evaporation over the forest is much higher than it was over the non forested surface so here we will get condensation occurring more regularly over the forested land condensation occurring more regularly means that on average there'll be lower atmospheric pressure here occurring and this will draw in moisture from the nearby ocean feeding rainfall over the forest in this case so notice there's nothing to do with temperature here this is to do with the process of condensation occurring and the nice thing about this theory if you do look at the physics and do the calculations it actually allows us to actually explain how rainfall can actually be drawn right into continental interiors it's the process of evaporation of the forest coupled with local condensation taking place that is able to draw wind in off the oceans right across the forest and maintain high rainfall even in the interior of continents one of the nice things about the biotic pump is it actually explains one of the challenges that climate scientists have which is that when they currently run their global circulation models their climate models that explain how the global climate works they actually find that the rainfall in the Amazon or the amount of water that comes out of the Amazon that's the run off from the Amazon basin in most of these models is much less than what's actually seen in reality so even the best models currently are giving us a typical run off out of the Amazon which is about half of what's actually observed so even though the Amazon has about 200,000 cubic meters of water per second travelling through it these climate models are only able to account for about half of that 100,000 cubic meters per second there's also other problems such as in the islands of Indonesia they will tell us that rainfall the models will tell us that rainfall over sea should be higher than what we see over land and in fact what we see is the reverse the rainfall over the land is higher than over the sea and of course why it would solve the problem is because the biotic pump tells us that actually it's the forests that are drawing in the water the moist air maintaining their own rainfall which is missing in the current models so the biotic pump has several important implications and first start with the scary ones that's the risks the idea that forests can actually switch off the positive feedbacks that bring rainfall into continental interiors and the idea that actually we need more or less continuous forest cover into continental interiors to maintain rainfall and that if we degrade the forest too much switching is possible we could imagine a situation where the forest is degraded it gets drier because there's less rain there's more fires and as we get into that cycle of degradation ultimately we no longer have a strong positive effect of the forest drawing in wind from the oceans and actually we can switch to a dry system where now the oceans become more effective than the continental surface and most of the wind will now be from the land to the oceans now drawing the moisture away so we lose that positive feedback and now we end up with instead of a wet continent a dry continent there's also the positive opportunities of recognizing these linkages between forests and rain that we see a whole new regional value in forests we could imagine if we're farmers that we would be now concerned about the forest upwind of us that provide our moisture but also the forest downwind that actually are generating the wind that carries that moisture to us so that brings a whole new set of people who should be interested and concerned about maintaining forest and tree cover because of the value it brings in terms of maintaining rainfall the Baltic Pumples that we have a mechanism which could be powerful enough to turn areas that are currently dry, green again if we are able to plant trees in the right way working with prevailing wind directions we could imagine turning a desert green through planting trees suitably we also see that actually using trees maintaining forests and planting trees is actually a positive way that we can go about addressing the current global concerns about water scarcity and unreliability and of course at the same time there are benefits in terms of carbon in terms of biodiversity and all the other benefits that we used to talking about with forests and trees so that's a positive opportunity that's all the presentations from Douglas so Douglas please stay with us after one more presentations from Jan that will be presented virtually from here by Professor Mainafat Northwick so just stay with us Douglas and then we will have a questions and answer session with you Peter are you there yes yes we are there so we followed kindly Douglas's presentation thanks Douglas maybe Tony is in the room so maybe he has one or two observations before we get the next presenter looking at today's presentation from Douglas and from the Summary Minor presented of yesterday and the couple of talks that I heard yesterday it is very clear that the water along with carbon and along with forests are largely or is largely unaccounted for it's unaccounted for in GDP unaccounted for in market prices and it's unaccounted for in a lot of the global models the decision makers are taking their decisions on and I think the interesting follow up from this meeting will be how we can link that those unaccounted for those negative externalities particularly if we get it wrong if we do something damaging or imperilous to those carbon water and forest domains of how we address that we hear with carbon that the real price of carbon is somewhere between 60 and 200 dollars a ton well if it takes 200,000 litres of water to produce 1 ton of CO2 equivalent then does that mean that we're pricing water at 1,200,000 per litre of that and if we had to look at that relationship between forest and as a land cover not just for the water but but as a resource what's the average price of a hectare of tropical rainforest $5,000 a hectare $10,000 a hectare $20,000 a hectare let's say it was 10,000 just probably just on the wholesale value of 300 or 200 cubic metres of wood well it would be that means that countries that have deforested to plant oil palm or rubber or cocoa or coffee have actually lost more on their balance sheet than they've gained and this balance and this water balance sheet that the speakers have been alluded to is incredibly interesting and raises a lot of questions going forward about how we frame our own research agenda thank you Tony I have the honour in a virtual symposium to be the virtual version of Jan Pokorny and speak to the slides that he present and I apologise upfront that I will miss the you will miss the nice accent with which Jan speaks his English and get a Dutch version that you've already heard before we really have cool insights that come from this work on the earth surface temperature and the very compelling way of imagery of showing that to people what it looks like which really shows that vegetation cools and the fundamental role played by water and vegetation in the climate is indeed that direct cooling effect that we have only partially represented in the current models and our current understanding partly because the weather stations excluded that effect for a long time so the basic content is if we start the energy, the solar energy is driving the whole hydrological cycle and there is variation in that that we need to know it's the balance between evaporation water going from liquid to vapour and vice versa that has big effects on the temperature and we can really see this in the air conditioning part and it will end up with showing these thermal pictures so we do the basic balance of the solar energy arriving at the surface of the top of the atmosphere and there is variation between seasons as we see here in the difference between January and July and there is difference between years and there is parts on that and there is variation between many factors in the detail of solar energy at the same time that is driving the hydrological cycle the accuracy with which we can measure solar irradiance is about 1% at the moment well, you've seen pictures like this before explaining the greenhouse gas effect how greenhouse gases in the atmosphere interact with that but of course clouds and water vapour has an even stronger effect on that than gases like CO2 and N2O and we can relate the radiative forcing to the temperature of any specific place by looking at what is reflected and what comes into it and of course we all know that if we compare a cloudy day the bottom and the graph with a sunny day that we have very different levels of irradiance reaching the solar surface well, the cooling effect of these clouds we can get the sense of that if we look at nuclear power stations as we still have in the Czech Republic and we see that they actually need a lot of water cooling to keep the nuclear power things going and we get the sense of the amount of water that they need to evaporate to cool the system and to keep it and compare that with the cooling that happens on a unit of land area and what we get if we combine the solar energy flux with the water balance we can see the two things that there is a lot of if we would compare on the left hand side the drained field where the evapotranspiration is relatively low we see that it produces a lot of heat whereas the place the patch on the right hand side with trees and ponds of water they evaporate a lot of water called latent heat but it actually means cooling effects there is a direct link between the evapotranspiration and the heat flux and we get a sense of the amount of energy involved with energy consumption when we vaporize when we go from liquid to vapor and at the same time energy release in the reverse process so condensation takes energy whereas vaporizing takes energy where condensation produces and I think that's partly linked to what Douglas was talking in the previous talk about well these things are not particularly new they have been understood for quite a while and when we go back to the turbo dynamic analysis of the past we can see that temperature and water are directly linked but it has not yet been fully applied to land cover types and land cover surfaces and the group of young has been working on thermal imagery by various ways in this case balloons that took with thermal cameras recorded the surface temperature of landscapes in summer in the Czech Republic as we see here and studied that during the day and what we see here is graphs of the daily warming and cooling that we see over patches in that same landscape and it's all exposed to the same solar radiation that's in the same location but we see obviously that the asphalt the termic road is by far the hottest in the middle of the day and the forest is slightly warmer than the open water but not that different from it and all the extent is in the same wet meadow is still evaporating quite a lot transpiring a lot of water but a harvested meadow which is a dry patch is actually getting very hot during that part of the day and one of these figures is included in the paper by David Ellison that we are discussing here so the remarkable thing is that at short distance from each other we have very different surface temperatures at the same time if you walk in the landscape yourself these things are not the surprise you can easily see it and feel it but if we look at the daily range of temperature and the surface temperature we see easily differences between vegetation and land cover types of 15 degrees in some case even more than that yeah and we get to the temperature that people feel and experience is not the same as the temperature that the weather station has been recorded it's not the temperature that you see on the climate maps there's a wide range of actual temperatures that occur and changes in land cover are directly linked to that surface temperature and are a way to manage the temperature under which people live now a further application that Jan has been involved with is a study of what it means in the Mao forest in Kenya and of course all our colleagues in Nairobi will be very much aware of how hot the discussion about the Mao forest has been and this is a contribution on the biophysical side of that story which has been published in 2010 yeah so the Mao forest is one of the few remaining closed canopy forest within Kenya and it feeds 12 rivers that feed into six lakes and it is an important part of the hydrology of Kenya and at the same time the discussion about it was heating up a lot when a new hydropower plant was constructed that required, needed the water generated from the Mao forest and it brought back this awareness that actually there is a lot of encroachment a lot of conversion of the Mao forest going and the government decided to evict people from that which has led to many discussions and conflicts on the social side on the hydrological side we can see that this is a color image interpretation of the thermal part that we see that the forests stand out as having a very different temperature than the farmland that is adjacent to it and on the ground if you go there you see many evidence that people are cutting trees are using it as firewood are taking it out and smaller scales at the same time a lot of the forest is converted to a farmland and to half open vegetation which has consequences on the ground for local livelihoods but it also has influences on the water and the hydropower supply coming from that landscape but we can also and that is the work that we contributed here and it has direct effects for the surface temperature and the cooling part on this and this is an analysis of the land surface temperatures influence that forest conversion that has taken place and yeah there is in the paper the detail of what it looks like on the ground but the strong shifts from closed canopy forest to open vegetation and we see that back in the temperature pictures of that area and in that way it has impact on the surrounding landscape as well so this is somehow related to the previous speaker Doug who talked about the water pump theory actually people within the mouth forest area themselves are, they have read the papers of Douglas Shield and Murdi Arsenault but they are convinced that forest does indeed attract rainfall and they have decided to keep a 600 hectare patch of a forest intact for it and what the group here has been doing is taking thermal pictures of that area and seeing whether that matches the local perceptions of what it will do and these are pictures taken from an infrared camera on an airplane and indeed we see strong effects on the temperature and this is an example of the deforested part where you see a lot of reds and yellows coming in and the darker colors here are the close canopy forest which still has intact evapotranspiration. If you compare that with an agriculture field you see even within an agriculture field there are hotter and even hotter places there is variation on that front but it is in a very different category from vegetation that has a high rate of evapotranspiration so I think the main message coming out within work is that it is possible to visualize the surface temperature that is infrared pictures combined with normal pictures and do help make the story very clear to people that forests are cool, that evapotranspiration is a cooling effect and that we can in that way relate, directly relate the hydrological cycle to temperature and this does seem to be aligned with the Makareva Gorshkov biotic pump theory that Douglas was explaining to us before. We can also take this into the further analysis and that links back to Cindy's presentation yesterday of thunderstorm cyclones and winds and heavy rains on that front and see that temperature itself is the cause of turbulence in the atmosphere and links back to the pattern of rainfall in the sea. On the physics side we can quantify the fluxes of energy linked to the fluxes of water in this part and it supports the basic concept of bringing back vegetation, bringing back water used as a way of cooling the planet. If you take the same methodology to the urban areas you see huge differences in temperature in the place. These are more or less the same time pictures. On the thermal picture you see a person on the normal picture but there are these effects going on. I think the bottom line of the presentation is that that cooling effect is very well understood in physics and it is very well understood in anyone who plans trees around their own place to keep it cool. This is not completely represented in the current climate data because they have been collected on places without trees and it is not fully incorporated in the current generation of climate change models but there is a clear link between what people on the ground think and believe and why they want to keep forests and our current understanding of these processes and again I apologize for the many points I missed if Jan would have come. Thank you Pamaina.  Now we are ready for the questions and answer session so we have some audience here so if you want to ask questions please grab some metal cards and hand it to our facilitator and for audience online please write down your questions on the chat room and for the time being may I ask Peter if is there any question from your audience Peter? There is a point for discussion from Memud not necessarily a question. Okay. Okay Memud please. Thank you very much. Very interesting set of presentations and Maine you summarized yesterday's messages very beautifully and it again brings us to the same old problem we are struggling to solve is the disciplinary versus multidisciplinary versus interdisciplinary versus transdisciplinarity. Hydrologists so far until yesterday perhaps last year do not consider all these other dimensions of how rains get distributed how water cycle gets kind of changed with the help of our due to trees and the vegetation today we also learned that physics very well understands the cooling effect due to trees and vegetation so you asked the question in the beginning so do we have enough knowledge to act? I think we do have some actionable knowledge which would be me at least to take it to agencies or networks like international network of basin organizations because those are the guys who deal with whose members are this transboundary basin organizations and they look forward to all these insights from research on water that has transboundary implication so maybe within FTA and other networks and programs we can do something that this knowledge is stable discussed at networks like international network of basin organizations thank you thank you Mahmood so Mahmood he is the capacity building head of aircraft based in Nairobi so we have a question from Paul Makin to Yan so hopefully we can communicate to Yan otherwise my name maybe can provide some answer briefly so the question is that can you expect satellite infrared resolution to match your findings as to conduct very large scale surveys so Paul is interested in groundwater inputs into rivers and streams in the tropics for example groundwater would expected to be cooler than surface water in many cases groundwater may have carbon dioxide many magnetos higher than surface water so maybe there is another questions coming here I don't know from whom from the audience the question is in the same page I think it's also for Yan but maybe Douglas also can contribute how does the albedo effects fits in this picture maybe Doug can start maybe Douglas can start on the questions because Yan is communicating with us but we will oh yeah okay Yan is typing here Yan mentioned that pixel of the land set is about 1 hectare so you need about 200 hectares area for study that's from Yan and do you have any additions or Douglas are you there it's not really my subject infrared photography better you ask Yan Yan is typing but maybe Douglas the effect of the albedo of the how much vegetation is reflecting solar energy you can comment on that how that links to the biotic pump or is that too far yeah certainly it's an important relationship I think what often comes up when I've been discussing this with people is we talk about the albedo of the surface and we forget the albedo of the clouds which the land surface is responsible for so there's this link between the land surface and cloud formation which has to be factored into the albedo equation which is generally missing in so many discussions at the moment if we know that vegetation can be promoting clouds like the work that Cindy was talking about yesterday and we haven't talked about the other chemistry kind of of the atmosphere effects where vegetation can be influencing cloud formation but of course clouds are one of the best ways to reflect solar energy back into the back into space so clouds are one of the best ways to actually influence the energy balance yeah thank you okay so let's go to Nairobi Peter are you there yeah yes we're here I can't see any questions but maybe I'll ask a question to Douglas at the moment Douglas I kind of like your map with the transect that looked at you know their transect and looked at rainfall patterns one interesting question that I'll ask in terms of looking at the future looking at sort of maybe empirical evidence or modeling approaches what would be your take if you went back to look at places where we've had massive reforestation projects going on and looking whether we can look at climate history I mean at climate history and look at rainfall in particular and would we be able to see the forest attracting rainfall again in that sense has that been done in the kind of work that you do I would say it hasn't been done very satisfactorily so far there's various data sets showing that when we lose forest cover we lose rain but I'm not aware of any strong data sets where we actually have a long time series showing the effects of reforestation so definitely if such data sets exist I would be very interested to find them but I guess part of the problem also is whenever you just have a correlation for example increasing forest cover and increasing rain there's always going to be many different other background factors which could plausibly be part of the explanation it's hard in one study to to prove these relationships so that remains part of the challenge I guess is finding these good data sets which people might find convincing it's definitely something we should do thank you okay we got some information more from Yan it's answering questions about the infrared Yan mentioned that thermal pixel of land that is one hectare in size so you see surface temperature yes ground water would be cooler you can see trunks of trees cooler and how they take ground water Landsat images are available from late 1980s so we can study changes of temperatures caused by land cover changes there's a follow up question from oh yeah and then Paul also asked whether there will be any progressions in satellite technology that will make this possible in the near future and Yan will type for the answer I believe so well maybe we can pick up on the discussion topic that Mahmood brought of this point of with this type of information who would be interested to act on it clearly there is a lot of further detail that the scientists can and should clarify and elaborate at the same time some of the very basic points that we are making here about effects the link between the water balance and the energy balance and the cooling effect of trees at the local scale is beyond any reasonable doubt and the effect of evapotranspiration as being the source of rainfall as such is beyond any reasonable doubt the basic principles we discuss here are certain the specific translation about what percent of rainfall can be increased by this or that remains uncertain so I think Mahmood's idea that these trans boundary basin organizations may be a good starting point that they are already familiar with this part yesterday we had several discussions on the Nile and of course so far the Nile discussion has been a blue water debate about water in the river if we can take them to understand the full cycle that would be a very good starting point in terms of interdisciplinarity clearly we do need the physical understanding we do need the climate people but we equally need the political understanding of what it means in a geopolitical frame and the social part and the economics as Tony's are bringing in so this is really a primary area where we can come together with many different pieces of the puzzle and see how the whole thing fits together interesting points and while we are waiting for another participants to give us some questions so I think it will be, I would like to pick up on Douglas map on the recycling ratio it's very interesting yesterday you mentioned that somehow monitoring the watershed functions is very uncertain and how do you think that this type of informations can also provide some indicators for any incentive base or payment for ecosystem services type of mechanism having such informations using the trans-boundary trans-boundary locations do you think that this is somehow relevant I think the problem we still have with the biotic pump at the moment is with all the discussion currently focused on these global circulation models and the global climate models until those models actually reflect some of these relationships it's going to be very difficult to actually get them very difficult to get these processes adequately reflected in the kinds of projections that the people are currently generating so right now for us I guess that's the focus is trying to ensure that these theories get the proper recognition and there is so much focus on these models at the moment that until the models actually reflect these relationships I think we're a little bit stuck so that's where we are focused at the moment we still have lots of homework to do and we have a lot of opportunities there will be another question for you Douglas be ready from Peter please Peter thanks Douglas we have a question from Marku Larjavara online and he's asking the following question he says increasing CO2 lowers plant transpiration that is has this been discussed in the biotip pump context is it possible that even without deforestation these pumps would be weakening I think it's a good point I mean it has been mentioned but we don't know perhaps we still don't know enough about all of these relationships to really have a strong a strong prediction but definitely the idea that relationship could be weakening makes sense I mean as the simplistic relationship that the plants can close their stomata more and conserve water and get the same amount of carbon definitely there is that potential and that would that would weaken the biotic pump but there are many other relationships that will also be changing at the same time with atmospheric change with temperature change so it's very hard to make a clear a clear turtle prediction as to what's going to happen in any one site without considering all the other variables thank you very much Lay? Yes there is another question from David Ellison David yes David seems online so David asked whether what is the net effects of rising temperature which also drives more evapotranspiration in addition to CO2 or carbon dioxide increase so what is the net effects of rising temperature so either Douglas or Yan, hopefully Yan can type or Pat mainly you want to contribute Douglas do you want to comment? I could say something briefly sorry does mine want to go? No no go ahead Yeah go ahead Douglas I guess it's fairly complex it really depends to what extent the vegetation itself is able to cope with the temperature increases to a certain degree we might expect that as temperature rises plants will actually be able to transpire more as long as the water is there but as plants get stressed they will also be inclined to close their stomata and if we actually get some kind of die-back obviously there's ultimately going to be a reduction in the leaf area vegetation and a change in vegetation so it very much depends on the degree of stress in the vegetation and there's some additional relationships which we haven't talked about but I think that are very important in the context of heat stress that we know for example that tropical forests they also affect clouds by some of the chemicals they emit into the atmosphere this isn't just the bacteria that Cindy was talking about yesterday but organic compounds that they will emit when they're stressed and we know that those compounds that are emitted into the atmosphere will also affect atmospheric condensation and can lead to cloud formation so there are feedbacks going on within the forest system itself which can actually protect the forest at least to some degree from heat so it also depends to what degree the forest can actually cope with these stressful moments where the temperature is rising ok there is another question to Douglas Douglas be ready so it's from Emilio the Los Trios what is the effect on the soil water balance of the biotic pump wow ok it depends again a lot on the specific system we're dealing with you can imagine that forests often have incredibly deep roots so what we're talking about in terms of available water for a tree can be very very deep in the soil profile so this is much deeper than we normally talk about when we talk about water balance but I know that work that's been done with isotopic fractionation of moisture and the like we see that even in deserts trees can be a major source of atmospheric water because they're able to access water maybe more than 50 meters down in the soil profile so I guess we really haven't studied these things very well but if there is available water and the trees can access it then obviously the trees will continue to transpire it depends a lot on what the trees can root in and whether they can access moisture and that will depend a lot on the specific situation but obviously if there is no moisture then the biotic pump cannot function if the plants cannot transpire moisture if the biotic pump is switched off there is nothing to generate the moisture maybe Minor would like to say something on the water balance yeah well yeah one point here is that some lessons that we can learn from the haze experience that we've seen in for example in Indonesia where of course haze is clouds that don't rain during periods with heavy haze of course the energy reaching the plants is much reduced at the same time they don't need as much water to evaporate because of that either now we have increasing evidence now that these periods with low radiation on forest actually lead to substantial shifts in the tree phenology itself and for one year after the first year after haze effect we don't get any fruits in the forest and we see the orangutans and other forest biota suffer from that effect in a direct way and that is stuff that is emerging right now so within our understanding of clouds we now talk about the clouds that cause rain but the clouds and the haze that has that effect on solar radiation without rainfall is quite relevant as well and it is cooling and it is somehow protecting vegetation from the immediate drought that is associated with it at the same time it has prolonged effects through the trees themselves and the energy balance within the tree and certainly those effects are not yet included in our current model representations of it and they have not been included when people look at the damage of these haze periods that we have these knock on effects of vegetation functions so there is a lot of detail in the physiology of trees in the way these things function at that level that is not adequately represented at the same time in the overall part the message is of course fairly obvious in terms of keep intact forest where you can and try to use tree cover elsewhere where it can suit your purpose and I think the basic ideas for that are sufficiently understood to act upon Thanks I think we also have a response from Jan along the same lines on structure Jan says crucial vertical structure of vegetation is crucial forest has inversion temperature lower down and higher at the crowns developed forest keeps water in canopy crops plants with bare soil have higher temperature down on the soil and lower at the top of the stand so warm soils heat air which rises and still so in quote on quote water from crop canopy so it's really going back to minus point on the structure of the vegetation as well not only the plant but the whole vegetation Douglas do you have any last points before we close the questions and answer session we're fine thank you if anybody's interested in these topics and wants to know more feel free to contact me okay thank you Douglas how about you but Mamina well no I think the points will come up in the next part when we get into the local knowledge and I think Victoria will take us through that part so thank you yeah well we're waiting for Victoria to be ready so it will be interesting to know beyond the technicalities while as Mamina mentions that Victoria will introduce some informations on how the local knowledge also can connect into those informations that we previously so Victoria from WeForest she will provide you presentations titled with implications for forest landscape restoration Victoria are you there yes Victoria so please start your presentation thank you okay hello everyone I'm going to play with presentation from Bogor as well as speak to it directly in this talk I want to focus on on how the current understanding of forest water climate interactions affect forest landscape restoration or FLR and how FLR may offer an opportunity as a potentially suitable avenue to integrate current knowledge in mainstream discourse I'll consider how FLR as a climate mitigation solution has relied on carbon centred messages but more importantly and back to the discussion we began yesterday reflect on what makes the approach attractive and moving forward with the forest water climate agenda WeForest is an international NGO that is dedicated to the restoration of tropical forest landscapes it develops and implements projects in a number of countries using forest landscape restoration approach with the view to mitigate climate change but also thinking of adaptation as it may be the case that not everybody attending the webinar is familiar with the concept of forest landscape restoration I think it is worth mentioning that the term FLR refers to the process, ongoing process of regaining ecological functionality and enhancing human well-being across deforested or degraded forest landscapes It is proposed as one of the most cost-effective climate solutions that we have available today FLR moves away from the side-based approach to emphasise that forests are part of a dynamic and multifunctional landscapes There are 10 widely accepted principles that FLR incorporates in its approach These principles include the notion of adaptive management the relevance of multi-stakehold involvement acknowledges that restoration may be conducted for multiple purposes and therefore lead to multiple benefits It should be a collaborative process and therefore both a socio-political and a technical intervention FLR works through several approaches including agroforestry it can involve natural and assistant natural regeneration it can be connecting forest fragments direct planting etc so it covers a whole range of methodologies It sits well with international framework and also with the global commitment since it can deliver on climate objectives both on mitigation and adaptation It is supported by the international community because it offers countries a way to achieve the IEC biodiversity targets the SDGs contribute to the Bond Challenge and also to the New York Declaration on Forests I guess the point here is that current mainstream discourses that connect forest landscape restoration to the climate change mitigation centre basically centre around two pathways that contribute to climate change mitigation one where FLR serves to mitigate climate change through carbon sequestration that is through capture and storage and the second pathway where FLR projects integrate solutions that reduce emissions to the atmosphere for example interventions that promote energy efficient stones or other schemes that are designed to reduce wood fuel consumption and mechanisms that associate forest, water and climate are from missing and collected in key reviews and publications Your mission is also sustained throughout other stakeholder groups such as the corporate and the business sector where climate mitigation is defined as a reduction of greenhouse gases emitted by the company's operation and as corporate and business sectors have adopted the clean development mechanism the climate carbon centre understanding has become prevalent in the corporate responsibility discourse and it is represented in corporate climate mitigation commitments and hence also in the financing framework which I think we haven't referred to or spoken about just to illustrate as an example I think even when the private sector take initiative and they seek to integrate a wide understanding of ecosystem services from forests they very much still rely on the carbon footprint reduction as the main tool for tackling climate change although there is a wider interest in incorporating other ecosystem services such as WALSA For example the international platform that was launched at the Cork 21 in Paris it aims to develop and certify in-setting projects worldwide and this involves the reduction of reducing the footprint within the company's own value chain which is driven by carbon footprint we for our interest in forest water and climate interactions stems very much from its mission to tackle climate change we are familiar with some of the debate we forest in collaboration with KU Lerben organized the expert workshop in 2015 to review the state of knowledge that relates to forest water and climate interactions the meeting led to the policy brief managing forest water and climate pooling as well as to the recently published paper the policy brief was written with the aim to convey current scientific knowledge to policy makers, forest managers and professionals with responsibilities in the implementation sector including FNR professionals we provided some recommendations and called for action but asking professionals to pay attention to key issues for managing forest for water and climate was a first step to improve awareness but we realized however that the message remains elusive for direct application it is perhaps too general and unlimited for application outside research the decision makers I think need more guidance to apply knowledge to their specific context and the paper that has just been published substantiates the content of the issues raised in the brief adding depth and analysis but I think more work we need to think about how to improve awareness beyond the distribution of information the paper raises multiple implications for forest landscape restoration practice and climate mitigation any climate mitigation strategy that relies on FNR must pay close attention to forest water climate relationship since the net climate mitigation effect of forest depends on complex relationships complex trade-offs between evapotranspiration, surface and cloud albedo as Douglas was talking about carbon sequestration as well as other factors one covide worth noting is that not all FNR will have a net climate mitigation effect that is not all FNR will contribute to climate change mitigation so for example we know that compared to high-latitude regions tropical latitudes are more likely to be affected by cooling climate therefore international strategies that seek to mitigate climate change may find greater success by focusing efforts in tropical latitudes where net cooling effects are more likely to be observed the advantage of FNR is that it can serve multiple purposes it can serve purposes beyond climate climate change mitigation and it is also powerful approach for addressing climate adaptation and I want to show here some of the social, economic and environmental benefits that can be attained through forest landscape restoration to achieve these multiple impacts and benefits again the knowledge of water and energy cycle impact is vital for example we heard yesterday about how soils infiltration capacity and as a consequence the groundwater recharge can be improved in degraded landscapes when infiltration and about transpiration rates are taking into consideration to illustrate how current knowledge can be applied on the ground I want to refer to a pilot study that is being conducted in California where published by Ellis and Layton researchers here studying the processes that can lead to the increase of regional precipitation in coastal marginal drylands in California so the paper describes a forestation pilot project that is irrigated with wastewater sources to increase local rainfall transpiration and the assumption is that the naturalography, the hills and the mountains in the area can increase the likelihood that a greater share of the rural transpiration will condense and precipitate locally. The use of wastewater is very interesting because it doesn't compromise downstream water availability so it also can save costs of water recycling and improving the expectation is that increased precipitation runoff in the transport of atmospheric moisture will serve to increase recovery in the region improving therefore both water quality and water security there are however many gaps in knowledge that affect implementation for example there are still questions concerning the minimum scale that is required for an intervention to have a specific effect on local transpiration and thinking about other examples that take a very different perspective I want to mention the project that we forest is supporting in north east India this is a forest landscape restoration project and we work directly with the indigenous communities that are spread across 56 villages and the communities decide which degraded forest areas are to be set to site for assisted natural regeneration and enrichment planting so one of our objectives this year is to ascertain whether the selection of the restoration sites collected by the communities is well aligned with forest and water objectives whether this selection is indeed favouring or optimising water availability which is the problem in the area so one of the things that we want to do in collaboration with FA Young's forest and water program is delivering a capacity building workshop next month to raise awareness among locals about forest water interactions and also monitoring with the view that this will inform their decision making process the integration of forest water agenda in community driven projects poses quite a few challenges because communities need to be brought on on board to make the project effective so it will require special tools and capacity building to sum up some of the points that I've made I think one of the key points I want to make is that as an avenue to integrate current scientific knowledge and mainstream thinking FLR is well placed well positioned and offers interesting opportunities it focuses on water functionality and resilience makes it quite suitable to address climate mitigation and adaptation at both sub-national and national scale it is suited to address the socio-economic and the governance objectives of stakeholders the principles of interdependency and cross sectoral dialogue also serve the purpose of the forest water climate agenda it can be argued that FLR meets almost all SDGs which again is useful to communicate about the forest and water climate impacts so I think in order to facilitate the shift in practice we will need to the tools that help translate scientific knowledge into practical guidelines and the tools that serve the decision making process the monitoring etc this I think will be the next challenge as the business and the investment sector also a part of the mainstream discourse I think there may be opportunities here as well to enlist corporate interest in seeking a wider set of approaches that can account for impacts that include forest and water interactions and I think that the business sector is already looking for solutions to make this happen the tools required by the stakeholder groups may be somewhat more related to economic risk so this is something again that needs to be considered to illustrate these points within an example I think there is an option to build on existing tools rather than to develop entirely new methods or frameworks that can integrate current scientific understanding with what we are working with at the moment for example the route which stands for restoration opportunities optimization tool was developed by IUCN and the natural capital project and launched in late 2016 to help decision makers and planners at national and regional scale select the best restoration areas according to specific objectives taking into account trade-offs and synergies between multiple objectives for restoration the focus again is limited because the focus is on carbon storage water quality that is assessed using sedimentation data and species richness and agricultural opportunity costs so a tool that can help create richer but not necessarily more complicated maps would be extremely helpful for decision makers, planners, developers and of course investors and I think this is I'm going to finish here thanks for listening Victoria and applause we don't know if we thank you, Victoria we'll just hold on and we'll try and link up with the next speaker but we'll take all three speakers before we take questions right, so please we want to remind people to keep putting on their questions on the the trees are cool chat so please keep on we'll come back to the questions as soon as we finish with the next two speakers we'd like to call on Eliane Springay who is a forestry officer for forest and water at FAO so Eliane are you ready to go yes I am thank you so much greetings from Rome okay thanks a lot welcome so I think you just go we'll take your presentation and then we'll come back to you later thanks a lot for being there thanks thank you for having me my name is Eliane Springay I'm the forestry officer for forest and water at FAO based at our headquarters in Rome, Italy I've been asked to talk about forest and water and policy primarily at the international level and I'll also discuss a little on national policies before I begin I would like to compliment the presentations of colleagues and briefly share with you some of the key messages we share with decision makers to advocate for the importance for forests and water it's estimated that 80% of the global population live in areas where water resources are secure, albeit lack of infrastructure seasonality etc and according to the millennium ecosystem assessment forests and watersheds and wetlands supply 75% of our accessible fresh water but as our populations become increasingly urbanized and grow steadily please note that at least one third of our world's largest cities or hundreds of millions of people rely on protected forested areas for significant proportion of their drinking water and many more people are reliant on water from forested watersheds that are not formally in protected status and one study had even found that for every one US dollar invested in watershed protection can save upwards of $200 in water treatment facilities despite these figures the forest resource assessment 2015 reports that only 25% of the world's forests have soil and water conservation as their main objective but the forest and water topic is not new to the international agenda in fact FAO has been quite active for some time in a process that is referred to the forest and water agenda a process of meetings and activities to promote the importance for forests and water and this actually started with the Sheikah declaration on forest and water in 2002 and since then there have been several meetings discussing forest and water topic and most recently the latest milestone was in September of 2015 right before the launch of the sustainable development goals and this milestone was the international forest and water dialogue at the World Forestry Congress in Durban, South Africa and FAO has actually gone so far as to summarize what has come out of these meetings in the publication forest and water international momentum and action which you can access using the link on the right and what we found was that in the period of 2002-2013 the recommendations of these meetings were rather consistent the first major recommendation being that we need to improve our understanding of forest water interactions in the face of climate change for different scales for various forest types and that we need to be better at communicating this research to decision makers and practitioners which is something the publication that has inspired this virtual webinar has really taken leaps and bounds to do in addition to improve understanding we need to take a more integrative landscape approach and referring again to the publication we need to look beyond the traditional watershed scale but that a landscape approach may be even looking at national regional and continental scales and that in order to do this we need collaborative partnerships that cross sectors we need capacity building at regional national and local scales the levels need improved monitoring systems and that perhaps with this we are then able to evaluate forest and water relationships as well as develop intersectoral policies while these meetings and recommendations are necessary it's equally important that they get implemented which is precisely why several partners including FAO ICRAF and INBAR developed and launched the five year forest and water action plan at the World Forestry Congress in Durban in 2015 the action plan emphasizes a need to integrate science, policy and practice where science can be presented on the ground in real life situations and that together these can inform adaptive policies that further encourage research and adaptive practices therefore the forest and water action plan has four major goals related to science, policy practice and one cross cutting goal on capacity building and communication well what does this need for countries what is the current situation there are about two dozen countries where forest and water management are housed within the same ministry however generally we find that these remain as silos and forest and water do not interact when it comes to policy that does not mean that there aren't integrative policies in play or practices for that matter generally speaking in the northern hemisphere Canada, US and Russia we see forest policies and practices that take water into consideration but this is also true in the southern hemisphere for example Chile last year launched their latest forest policy and there is a very strong component looking at forest management for water supply similarly in Kenya mountains and their ecosystems including forests are acknowledged as water towers supplying water to the rest of the country however when we see segregation of forests and water this is problematic a good example comes from the Philippines where last year it was announced a large investment over 120 million dollars was going to improve water supply infrastructure for the city around the same time it was announced that the primary watershed delivering the majority of water to the city was under degradation because the forest guards were deployed to protect the watershed had gone on strike for lack of payment and there was a sudden increase of illegal logging and slash and burn agriculture which was affecting water quality from this watershed so and yet none of the 120 million being invested in water supply infrastructure was being spent on the protection of the very source of the water supply how can that be you're investing in improving a water supply system and yet the very source is reducing the quality of the water supply which will more quickly degrade the new infrastructure system and this is a major problem with separation of forest and water not only a policy but in practice another issue in policy is that there are certain forest and water narratives that are popular and quite pervasive in policy even though they are not universally true four major ones are forest reduce water yields forest reduce floods forest increase base flows forest reduce erosion but the truth is that these are context specific and the converse can also be true so long as the policy does not properly understand the context for which it's applied we potentially see a problem a good example forest reduce floods really depends on the scale the scale of the area we're talking about the magnitude and duration of the precipitation event prior to the flood you can plant as many trees as you want you're not going to prevent flooding in the flood plains of Bangladesh and yet we often see these policies that are mismatched for the context they're in and this is why it is important to have science informed policy and for there to be on the ground understanding of the context for which these policies apply so from a historic and current situation we now move to the SDGs which are quite new and still somewhat under development as the indicators are still being worked on as we speak and there are two SDGs where forest water relationships are explicitly acknowledged SDG 6 clean water and sanitation and 15 life on land there are also two other SDGs for which the forest and water topic can also relate SDGs 12 and 13 now as previously mentioned by colleagues the climate change agenda does not go beyond greenhouse gases and therefore we still need to try and push the forest and water topic because it is incredibly important for climate change but it is encouraging that within the INDCs the commitments of countries to the climate change agenda forest and water relationships are sometimes acknowledged special ecosystems such as mangroves and montaing forests are explicitly mentioned for certain INDCs so this is encouraging but it is important to note that a lot of countries mention forest and water or these special ecosystems contingent on the availability of funding meaning that they will only work on them if they receive funding from donors on that note I would like to look a little bit more closely at SDGs 6 and 15 for which there are three relevant targets 6.4, 6.6 and 15.1 6.4 looks at increased water use efficiency across all sectors and the custodian agency for its indicator is FAO Aquastat hopefully what we will see in time is that the forestry sector becomes more water use efficient particularly the planted forest industry targets 6.6 and 15.1 are actually very similar and plan on using similar methodology mainly remote sensing to measure progress 6.6 is being led by UNEP in support with other agencies on behalf of UN water and 15.1 the custodian agency is FAO and will be using forest resources assessment indicator both 6.6 and 15.1 are looking at changes in extent area of the ecosystems and for 6.6 forests are recognized as a water related ecosystem of course things haven't been reported yet and what will be very interesting to see how changes in extent ecosystem then relate to water the question is is it possible to correlate changes in land use to changes in water supply will we be able to see that loss of forests or degradation of forests in the landscape does affect the extent of water within and coming out of ecosystems hopefully this is something that we will see and it will be very interesting to see how the self reporting that will be done by countries particularly for the forest resources assessment indicator how this potentially correlates to information being seen by third party conducting remote sensing studies so what does policy need in order to include forests and water in conclusion we need to see policy based on science we need to see more publications like the one that sparked this webinar to be produced and written in a way that it can reach practitioners and policymakers we need to see a stronger interaction between science, policy and practice where all three can inform each other we also need harmonization of trade-offs and synergies within policy frameworks we need to better understand what are the win-win situations and how to avoid the lose-lose and include these into adaptive policies lastly we need to see institutional mechanisms and opportunities for dialogue in order to address potential conflict in policies particularly policies from different sectors and cross-sectoral policies so how do we do that we need a stock taking of international and national policies and we need to build the capacity of decision makers and stakeholders in recognizing the importance of forests and water for climate and how to implement practices and policies that will help to maintain these important environmental processes that help to regulate environment and frankly life on earth thank you very much oh thanks a lot Eliane very very interesting talk that was we'll try and go back to Bogor for Leigh to introduce Vincent and we'll come back to you Eliane with questions after Vincent's talk so please stay on and hopefully victory is also hanging on in the and waiting as well so I would like to introduce our speaker for today it will be Dr. Vincent Gates the director of CJIR research program on forestry and agroforestry so as we promised before that we will connect the knowledge into actions through research and please Vincent floor is yours thank you Leigh and thank you everyone first of all I feel very privileged because from yesterday and today I'm the only one speaking not being a co-author of this paper by David Ellison and colleagues and I think several colleagues from FT have been involved and I think it's the kind of research we definitely want to do in a program such as FT to enable challenging the theory or creating the conditions for thinking outside the mainstream theories and the implication it can have and here around water, trees, forests and climate change we shouldn't minimize at the same time there's a congratulation I think we shouldn't minimize the challenges that will come out of this research in terms of further question it asks to research because in fact we are adding a lot of complexity consciously to a problem we are adding new processes at different scales we are exploring new correlations therefore we are adding also new uncertainties etc and we need to be also very clear about that because we are, we will need to inform the magnitude of those processes and at the same time be clear about the uncertainties because what we want to do now is not to it's not only to do more six years of research around this but to look at what are the key implications for different areas of actions and policy makings and these are the opportunities so by which in fact we think that this kind of research can perhaps simplify some of the key solutions that we have in different ways so basically I won't go very in detail in terms of the main findings these are discussed during two days what would be nice in what the team of scientists themselves have tried to do in a kind of IPCC type to assess the degree of confidence that these different findings have because there will be very important to informing yes the confidence we can have in terms of solutions that we can provide to problems or to policy the main thing that we can perhaps retain from this paper this approach the review is that really we are in a turning point in terms of perception on how forests and trees play a role in the climate debate I think that was said from the beginning by Peter Holmuth, director general of C4 in fact 1992 25 years ago everything was about carbon need the need to mitigate carbon and forests are full of carbon and therefore forests have a big role to play now it is we are on a point where we need to better understand the relations between forests trees, land uses and climates through not only the carbon cycle but also the water cycle and other bio-geochemical cycles this causes a paradigm shift that we want now to to call whereby people are looking at forests from a mitigation perspective that's the majority of the literature in IPCC for example is about that then how can forests adapt to climate change and then there's a very little part of the literature about how forest and trees can play a role to help the world and its people at different scales to adapt and this is the perspective that we want now to put at the forefront forest and trees will be in the new paradigm for the adaptation at different scales the adaptation of agriculture the adaptation of livestock of crops etc and in the face of climate change ensuring that we reach a lot of other objectives and this in fact we believe will simplify the discourse of the narrative that was sometimes complicated between mitigation and adaptation because in fact forest and trees will start in a hot world to play a fundamental role at different scales in adaptation and at the same time they will because they store carbon they will provide mitigation as a co-benefit this is really the change of narrative we're calling for it's also an inversion of perspective I think we've seen the last two days from a top down carbon, global carbon cycle perspective to by bringing water in by bringing the water cycle at different scales a more bottom up perspective with also the policy implication it can have in terms of local perceptions and finding for local solutions as we've seen for example even this afternoon a good example in Kenya the more forest etc so basically the exercise that the way also to introduce in 15 minutes the discussion we can collectively have on the implications what these findings do have for implication in several domains and I will briefly go through six of them from climate research climate policy restoration landscapes and the SDGs but before doing that I would like to say that all across this domain what this new role of forest and trees through water through local cooling effects through to climate can bring is to enable people to better understand what are the stakes in terms of climate change adaptation and what are the concrete actionable options that they can benefit from at land use it also opens new practical avenue for bringing stakeholders bring farmers together to understand what to do so the first domain is perhaps the most immediate one that's already this afternoon just to repeat what through the minutes on the internet of one IPCC meeting at COP 2022 in Marrakesh the vice chair of IPCC working group one because the meeting was about what are the key issues the urgent gaps in climate change research it was acknowledged in the water cycle so there is a recognition by the scientific community that the water cycle in climate is complex and that there are many things that the community needs to understand and needs to represent better among those of three that we have discussed today reducing the uncertainty in rainfall prediction in general circulation models that's a very relevant direct climate variable further research on the magnitude of the effects by which forest contributes to the processes that generates rain and wind and rain and the resulting rain and the challenge scientific challenge but also a community challenge to integrate scientific community to integrate these principles identified in these models with active vegetation feedback and while recognizing that we are here adding a set of several layers and processes and related uncertainties as for the climate research there is another point because as was said by Elaine one of the important also to link to policy and IPCC is one of the elements that enable that how to make these findings relevant for IPCC and there is an upcoming special report of IPCC on land use and climate change how will this report go through this new paradigm climate policy second domain here we are in a new phase of the enterprise agreement with the now nationally determined contribution that countries have engaged to to fulfill what it brings what this research is bringing is a new vision about how forest entries can contribute to these NDCs and here what research can do and what the program as FTA to help establishing metrics and then how to measure them in terms of the role of forests and trees in adaptations and the benefits from the local scale to broader scales and perhaps more conceptually or the framework also to understand how the currently segregated debate in the NDCs mitigation versus adaptation can be overcome some NDCs very interestingly such as Mexico have put the zero deforestation under adaptation not under mitigation so there is already some understanding of these roles research and one of the avenue as Daniel Mugiasso has said yesterday is to fully explore what article 7 of the Paris agreement can bring in terms of climate adaptation and how the roles of forest entries can be put in for adaptation of agriculture, of rural areas, of cities at different scales one of the things that this change of perspective will perhaps also bring is put back the mitigation focus there is a need to mitigate the need to tackle climate change because we need to have to ensure the stabilization of climate the 1.5 degree goal etc this will put the mitigation focus back in the energy sector back where it mainly belongs and is all sector the land use sector from this difficult debate about loopholes and contribution to the energy while maintaining a full attention on what we can do for climate change adaptation so it's not that we're going to talk less about trees but in fact we're going to talk more about trees in climate policies second domain as mentioned by Victoria and so is land restoration here as well big pledges have been made New York born etc question is on the ground where for what objectives and here what we can retain from this research is that it provides a new hydroclimatic rationale over and beyond the carbon or climate matrix to assess the performance of tree based landscape restoration and here what we perhaps would need from research would be more systematic comparison between trees and vegetation types and how the functional attributes such as the one that enables plants to biologically create or generate rainfall and how does that how does different types perform across also in their local context climates and zones. Second question in land restoration beyond the plant is how because of the teleconnections how do we connect local action and local benefits costs local costs and local benefits with remote co-benefits and the micro beyond carbon and the starting with the micro climatic effects so what can we give to stakeholders discussing these restoration plans to understand these effects and how can we test that perhaps at a sub national scale to discuss the repetition of costs and benefits and the acceptance to stakeholder because sometimes perhaps maintaining a forest upwind will be critically important to maintain the crop basket, the downwind and we need to bring that in the picture in terms of restoration. Next domain landscape, yes landscape policies of course this is not only about restoration it cuts across how to organize land uses at different scales for water and climate and here what we think the research which someone can bring is effective and some tailored tools to understand the location specific nature of atmospheric moisture, rainfall the sources etc and perhaps maps or cover transfer functions that will include land cover or tree cover to better understand the micro climate predictions and possibilities at landscape levels visualization tool also for cooling from the rural to urban continuum basically but in doing so we can not only inform the land policy but we believe we can also inform the water policies not will be complicated because water management in complex if we know we try to manage also atmospheric moisture is going to be even more complex but that's definitely now in the picture. Food and food security policies another area for action and here the question is what are the various roles of forest and trees from the continental scale to the farm scales in terms of preserving food security first of all the variability of food production is heavily dependent on rainfall and here all this research is in fact questioning what's the origin of rainfall and what the role of forest we need to have a better understanding of the different scales of variation of rainfall and the origin and to contextualize that variability in support of what the rest of agriculture research is doing in terms of climate smart options second because there are teleconnexions as we saw research can undertake to document and quantify the role of forest to generate rain in very important areas where that produced to summarize the food security the food security in the world and lastly at the more local farm or even plot scales it might be opening already open door but to recall that when we're in a hot world basically for a farmer to adapt to climate change he can try or she to change its crops or rely on a definite innovation to change the the variety etc but one other option that can be provided is to modify or to enable the systems to better cope with heat to better cope with hot temperature that can in two or three days destroy the crop and many of these options let's recall that very clearly depend on how farm systems integrate trees or different crop systems integrate trees within or at the border or at the farm scale finally last speaker Elaine has mentioned this the sustainable development goals 17 SDGs one on forest, 16 others it's very complex there are by definition many connections how to navigate through that and how to give to stakeholders simple solutions that are easy to grasp when everything seems so complex and we're even adding more complexity because we're adding new processes this is also where we believe by focusing on these new roles of trees and forests through water we can find simple solutions that will kill not only one bird or two birds in one stone but several ones food security water security, climate change, mitigation as an illustration of this I'm here displaying again the figure 3 of the paper which is also challenging one of the common understanding between groundwater recharge and canopy cover here the landscape in the middle is better for water is probably better for for food production is probably better for biodiversity and it's probably also better for wood and for livelihoods for other purposes so we are in fact providing some solution that fit several challenges now this all this implication are for research for the roles of research what that research can do in action and in policy making of course that also interprets the role of the CGR program on forest trees and agroforestry which is the biggest science and research in development partnership to address the role that forest trees and landscape can play for climate change for sustainable development and for food security and I've just tried to summarize because some of you are in the room or in Nairobi perhaps in Lima that all of this is also going to draw some implication for how we run our program first we are going to invest more in forest climate change field beyond carbon we have a flagship about climate change that's going to be a focus second we are going to work at the forest water cycle interface there are other programs of the CGR that look at that the climate change agriculture and food security program the program on land water and ecosystems we are going to harness the one of the key advantage of FTA is to be able to ground its science and knowledge on the set of Sentinel landscape where systematic data is studied on several dimensions from livelihood to the environment and here a set of seven sets of landscape two landscapes are very important for some of the processes we've been studying now today and yesterday water towers landscape across Kenya and Uganda and the Ghats in India and what does it means in terms of the teleconnection effects what does it means in terms of food security we are going to look at that lastly the five last red circles is to say that we we need with this inversion of perspective we need even more to pay attention to location and context this is the minors favorite theory of place we really need to think about that and look at the various typology that we will encounter between water and forests depending on the local situation and also the needs of the populations in doing so we need to be sure we are not oversimplifying of course our message at sea for aircraft is that trees are very good and they're cool and they're good for plenty of reasons but sometimes not always the same reason and sometimes not the same everywhere we need to be clear about that we don't need to finish yes because my time is over one of the important because we want to be credible at the same time and influence policy making and action we also need to be sure on how we are going to assess the magnitude and the uncertainties of the claims we've been doing we know it's difficult but we need to do that and finally to conclude one of the because we have discussed that in the management teams of FDA with all the partners in the CG but also the centers outside the CG's I will not mention them there are several of them but Katye Sirat, Inba and Tropenbos that we need to ensure in a research program for development that perhaps 70% of the research we're going to do is going to provide solution on things we know very well and we're going to scale up etc but we need to safeguard as part of the research program even an applied research program for a bit of research and a bit of time and a bit of efforts on this kind of research that is challenging the theory but at the same time perhaps offering sustainable solutions for five years or ten years later and this is what we're going to do also in our program during 2017-2022 Thank you Thank you Vincent It's very interesting that you highlighted about these five action domain range from a climate policy, land restoration landscape, food security and finally SDG and your last PowerPoint presentations also reminds me as my own evaluation tools as one of the FDA scientists let me just go over to Peter Hi Leitang, it was very very interesting from Vincent at the moment no questions yet from the floor will hold on for a bit to see what's coming through Oh yeah, we have a question here actually Peter So there is a question from Twitter So we have chat room, we have Twitter, it's from Fesella with hashtag trees are cool at forests for future so maybe Victoria and Elaine or even Vincent you can comment about has anyone researched into the real value of the forest for desert countries So anybody wants to pick up these challenging questions Victoria or Elaine What is the question it was a little hard to hear Has anyone doing a research or researchers into the real value of forest for countries with desert desert desert I guess it would depend on if we're talking about actual deserts or talking about dry lands and say restoration and dry land forests in which case yes there is research being done primarily in the Mediterranean area but the truth is as I think even Tony mentioned earlier in his quick intervention that water isn't necessarily included in the value of forests So for example there was interesting research even by some of the co-authors of the paper that looked at canopy cover and groundwater recharge and I think maybe Douglas might be able to add more to that but I don't think this is necessarily or the forest water relationships aren't necessarily evaluated and included so while the research is there or is being developed it's not necessarily being incorporated into practice or policy at the time Victoria, Dylan Yes I just wanted to add that we did I think some of the presenters yesterday referred to dry lands and in West Africa research by co-authors in the paper and as Elaine mentioned it looked at infiltration capacity in relation to tree cover and tree density so there is clearly some research I think what would be also interesting is to connect with the dry lands group that are very much focused on the Great Green War all the way from India to the West Coast so I think there is quite a bit of activity in that in this area Okay, thank you Victoria Well maybe to add a bit on that concept of value of course there's a whole separate science on ecosystem services and their valuations and the perspective group of meetings and discussions at many words are facilitator as part of at the same time with the perspective of what we've been sharing these two days we need to be fairly critical of many of the ways these valuations have been done so far they definitely have problems with scale they tend to look at one thing at a time try to get some economic value far from the current ecological understanding that we have been sharing these two days so I think that field of valuation is still we need to further discuss the insights that we have right here now need to be translated to the people who work within that valuation concept and there's many challenges on the right scale of doing it of course forest in the desert is a bit of a conundrum it's partly then a matter of definitions what is a forest what not the very few trees that you still see in the desert per unit biomass will be awfully important but it would not be classified as a forest by most existing standards yes thank you Pamina yeah I would like to add more but from my role as facility editor I have to stop let me just go to Elaine there is a we have students here from IPB the Bogor Agricultural University and we have Ahmad Solihin so he wants you he wants you to answer his questions on what will be the next agenda of FAO on forest and water and particularly for the next eighth water forum in Brazil and what will be how to ensure the SDG number six and SDG number 15 to be integrated and sustained please Elaine well FAO is currently trying to develop a standardized monitoring framework in order to better understand forest water relationships on the ground there are thousands of forestry projects and activities happening worldwide every year and quite frankly a lot of them don't necessarily look at forest water relationships at all so trying to develop indicators to encourage looking at forest water relationships and how so this is something that we'll be working on for the next little while and the reason why we're doing this is because as I mentioned during my presentation the lack of monitoring the lack of data the lack of understanding forest and water relationship for different contacts is is missing so this is why we're focusing on this as for ensuring SDGs 6 and 15 are sustained I mean this is FAO is working on this from many directions not only from the forest and water program we're supporting countries but this is definitely a long-term process and requires a lot more effort beyond just FAO and I think it's up to the different stakeholders civil society other international organizations to really ensure that countries remain on track and we will probably have to look at how to build the capacities of countries to deliver results and of course it's a little premature at this stage to comment too much because the indicators those organizations custodian agencies that are in charge of helping to report on these indicators it's still a developing process so I think it will be easier to comment once we see the first numbers or the first reporting and then see what needs to be done from there hopefully that answers the two questions yes thank you Elaine, Peter you have a question please yeah, thanks Elaine thanks Leigh there is another question still from Ahmed Solikhin Ahmed Solikhin who is asking I think to all the presenters how do we implement climate forest water and energy within a coherent policy framework without post words that will necessarily create confusion and conflict I think the simple answer is with great difficulty in my experience I think you have as I mentioned forest, water, even energy policies they're often housed in different ministries and even if they are within the same ministries different departments there's a lot of segregation and quite frankly there's also a lot of conflict you have incentives for policies even agriculture policies that directly conflict with policies of other sectors and I think until we can develop mechanisms for countries to deal with these conflicts it will be quite challenging to have truly integrative policies but I would love to hear from the other speakers what their point of view are thanks Leigh Anne, Victoria, Vincent any thoughts yes because I was thinking about this when the questions that were coming up yesterday and I think it is true that there will be quite many conflicts arising from the various agendas of a whole range of stakeholders but I think there's also there are opportunities there if we are quite open to think about engaging multi sectors and multiple stakeholders so I was referring to a specific approach to forest landscape restoration because I think it sort of has or works with a lot of the key components that are necessary to effectively bring together a whole range of agendas and deliver on a number of objectives so in some ways there may be a range of opportunities that are already available that can be brought in and used as entry points to discuss issues that are quite delicate also I was thinking about one of the ways in which we can also help you improve communication in terms of taking the scientific knowledge base to policy and decision makers I think bringing the different stakeholders in quite early is an approach that might make sense in some ways thinking back at how we developed the policy brief and what we've done with it we've basically distributed a message but I think if we had to do it again probably an idea would be to engage policy makers at some stage to better understand what kind of information data is required for them to make certain decisions and I think that applies to the whole range of scales of decision making with water, energy, climate, etc so perhaps one of the approaches would be to continue with research that is applied and one that includes stakeholders that will be making decisions later on with results and if not with a case and if we work to make this work I think then one of the advantages would be that you already increased the likelihood of taking these results so it's very much I think thinking or rethinking the relationship we have between science practitioners okay, thanks a lot Victoria, I don't see if I'm ready to talk so we'll try thanks Peter no, just thank you Victoria because you made my answer easier because in fact I was trying to say exactly the same thing and in top of that the thing that we in FTA and with the global landscapes form and also we see for what we want to exactly provide is a tool to start from the ground up in organizing these difficult debates and what you mentioned two important things integrate the dimensions integrate the stakeholders and inform the dialogue by knowledge that is generated at the same time by the stakeholders given the local context and the understanding starts with clearly sharing the problems before sharing the solution so this is also at landscape level the problems of energy, water food security they are different and what are the priorities what a landscape with the people in it can deliver is the first thing you need to agree and this is of course deciding on the solution based on the knowledge that is available and that is what we are trying to do at GlobalScape with the Global Landscapes Forum and also at local Scapes for example the 18th of May that we are going to do here in Jakarta with UNEP and the Global Landscapes Forum on Peatlands for instance Ok, thanks a lot we will now go come to the room here at ICRAF in Nairobi and Andrew please, over to you Thanks very much Peter first and foremost my apologies for coming in so late in the day during these two days but I had a comment really for David Minor dog Daniel and Bruno who I already had an exchange with one of the things that struck me about this paper that was recently published was the extent to which it was ahistorical and I think I would like on the basis of what Vincent presented to perhaps add a sixth question to the five he already raised and that is I think the importance that we actually take a much more rigorous efforts to actually look at the historical evidence of institutional and conservationist responses to the fears of artificially induced climate change and this spans more than 450 years and is documented so I think there are question marks about the novelty of this relationship between forest and water which in fact goes back originally to the Greeks and many of the Arabic texts which conserved the ideas and then triggered the growth of European centres of science particularly in France and Britain already from the 16th and 17th centuries and then this culminated throughout the expansion of European powers globally and underpinned much of the interventions in terms of forest science so I'd like to add to what Vincent raised when he raised point number two of avoiding oversimplification and that trees are good for everything but I would add to that I think some scholars, notably Diana Davis have raised concerns about the forest centric mood that has gripped the Anglo-European imagination since the 19th century particularly in terms of the policy responses in dry land forests and I raise this because Victoria again brought up or mentioned very briefly in her one of her early exposers the Great Green War project that is little more than a repetition of a policy response that was initiated after the Anglo-French Forestry Commission was conducted in 1936 and I think there's lots that we could learn from some of those historical precedents to avoid us repeating the same mistakes that were made 80, 90 years ago thank you very much Thanks a lot Andrew for that quick response from Minor and Vincent from Bogor and then we'll come back to Tony for his closing remarks Thanks Andrew this is a topic that we have discussed many times and I really enjoy it and clearly within the Indonesian context for example the debate on forest and water became very hot in the 1920s and we've had various ways to look back at that and see at that point in time and it seems that existing target of 30% forest in Indonesian law is based on snow melt patterns in Switzerland which doesn't seem to be and its relation with floods so yeah there is a lot of interesting things to say about that and I think one of the key ideas of these Sentinel landscapes is that we ground our work in the historical understanding of those places and feed that into that part so that we don't have a quick study here and there but we actually ground it in that rooted part so I fully agree with you this is important and I think we're trying to do it in the current work but we need people like you to help us connect with that further, thank you Thanks a lot Minor I hope you will continue the discussion within FTA and with partners on this Elaine Victoria Jan, thank you very much I think it's been great unfortunately we can't keep going because of time but the talks were great and I can see everyone really happy so thank you once again I think we'll now invite Professor Tony Simons the Director General of eCraft World Agroforestry Center to offer his closing remarks Thanks very much Peter and thanks very much to our colleagues in Bogor both the organizers and our remote speakers in Australia and Norway and Italy and Czechoslovakia and other countries in the world A fascinating two days symposium really on linkages between forest and water and much of it framed in the climate debate and we've struggled for decades of trying to say well let's make the forest be worth more than its carbon and I think what has been presented over the last few days gives us a lot of hope that maybe water is going to be one of those key elements that reinforces the real value of forests If you ask for one point in summary about these two days I think it would be that there's been some very clouded thinking and to the presenters please take that as a compliment because this ability of vegetation particularly perennial vegetation trees to pump water both from hydraulic lift and also the biotic pump that Doug spoke about is really fascinating I've learned a lot in the last two days and checking various facts in Google about it I think another staggering point that came across is just how many missing elements there are in our various climatic models in relation to water in relation to temperature in relation to the presence and role of trees and yet we take those models as granted and why aren't politicians listening to them and our role as scientists is to continue to build the evidence continue to test the theory continue to push to find explanations that change human challenges and problems and I think these couple of days have been fantastic and I applaud the organizers really for helping frame it and distill it very much for us a little bit was mentioned about the difference between the price, the cost and the value of water and how much water you pay for cubic meter in your country if it's through municipal tap this is how much it's worth if it's blue water in your river or your irrigation canal or if you're collecting it a rain water harvesting roof or if it's your vegetation that is helping collected in the soil to recycle it for us for a number of years there were big debates about where the water on the world came from and there's kind of two theories one is, well it must have come from inside the earth when the year after the earth was formed that's where it came from or it must be a whole lot of bunch of comets and asteroids that arrive with little payloads of ice on them and dropped it off on the surface as they collided with us but there is more of a favor that it came from inside the earth and it's not luckily for us that it's not leaking to the atmosphere because clouds are such a low altitude that we don't lose it because we have this fantastic gravity but we're losing it seems not losing the water but we're losing the functionality of it and we're losing the functionality of it because we're losing the forest and driving those functions and not just the ecological functions and perhaps it's a shame that we didn't have more on the human the livelihood implications of a lot of the work that was discussed here today so perhaps that's the challenge for the next iteration of the seminar on how it affects people's livelihoods and people's access availability their rights to use water because we know a lot about those very linear watershed relationships where downstream users get put out but these teleconnections show that there is that role for international understanding and policy making Gabon has 87% forest cover does American Samoa has 95% forest cover do they need that level of forest cover for their societies? No but the world needs it the world needs it as a carbon sink and the world needs it as these biotic pumps and drivers of beneficial precipitation so if the world needs it the world has to pay for it the world has to provide for it the world has to be accountable for it and that strengthens the idea that maybe carbon has tried fighting on its own to help protect forests and it hasn't worked with forests and carbon and the human and other ecological dimensions maybe it's not just about payment for services but it's a real valuation of understanding those whether people decide to accept those values is neither here nor there I mean obviously a lot of the work of C4 and FTA partners and NICRAF is around tropical forests and in many places rainforests should be a little bit of a clue in the title there rainforest so it's a forest that generates rain and it's a forest that receives a lot of rain and what we've seen from a lot of the presentations today is that there is a link anyone in Bogor or Nairobi got the best definition for us of what is a rainforest we're all experts it's our field we should know about it it's a topic of the seminar so go to Google and find out your own nice favorite definition of what a rainforest is whether that's the minimum number of months that doesn't receive 100mm of rainfall or the lowest threshold being 2.5m of rainfall a year come up with it because we need to be at a champion rainforest and that's every single tree that occurs in our classic rainforest so with those few closing remarks again like to thank you this well that's only been 6 hours of presentations it's been tremendous effort by the planners the conveners, the moderators, the presenters and others and I look forward to discussing with our staff in ICRAF and also with our FTA partners on how we take this forward mainstream and challenge ourselves more in our own individual project agendas and the center agendas and in these CGR research programs thanks very much for being part of what has truly been a fantastic event and can we show our deepest deepest appreciation to the organizers, the speakers and the conveners behind us thanks very much thank you Tony we fully agree with your all points so it's time for us to close this symposium but there will be some announcement but before the announcement let us give a big hand to all our speakers and for sure we will we also thank for C4 and ICRAF for becoming the host of this maybe almost the first in Indonesia the virtual symposium and also for the hard work of the team here we have an IT team can you give the camera to our IT team they have been working very hard preparing all of this and also to our not taking a team and everybody here before I close we will have to announcement the first one our communication team mentioned that the recorded presentation and the question and answer sessions will be available in the FDA website about a week from now so it means at the end of March and in beginning of April it should be ready for you to download and also if you want to know more and get clarifications the speakers also mentioned that they are happy to receive more questions through emails and the second one so we have students here participating and we also want to appreciate the students from Bogor Agricultural University for sure that having young generations in the room is always promising to hand over all of the findings that we have now okay that's all from me and it will be our pleasure to be interact with you all after the symposium ends thank you, bye