Spotlight is one of the coolest features of Mac OS now on this channel. You won't hear me say too many things that are Positive about Mac OS, but searchlight is definitely one of those features that Mac does really really well now One thing as a Linux user I will say is that Linux has had this spotlight functionality in many different applications for a Very very long time long before Mac OS had it So technically Linux is still better than Mac nana nana boo boo But the point is is that spotlight is really really good and since it has improved There have been many more improvements on the Linux side and there have been many more attempts at Replicating that type of functionality on some Linux distributions now today What we're going to do is take a look at another one of those Attempts and this is called searchlight and this is a genome extension So it will only work if you use genome. So Unfortunately, that's just the way we'll have to deal with it But it's actually pretty cool, but it's only pretty cool and it's almost almost there So we'll talk about that. So let me show you what this looks like So we're here in a boon-to and I chose a boon-to simply because I had it happen to have the ISO around But basically what searchlight is is it looks like? Spotlight for Linux now, obviously it's just for gnome But still its purpose is to search the system for basically anything and I Specifically use those words because it's specifically for the system. There is no web search here That's a big part of it. That's missing. Hopefully that will come in the future But if what you want is something that will search your system in a very Appealing manner or very aesthetically pleasing manner then searchlight is something that you might want to look into So let's just say you wanted to search for a file that you happen to have on your system I happen to know I have tux here in a file and it does show me that if I click on it It will show me tux inside of the image viewer if I do that again and search for tux I can actually just use the enter key and it'll do the same thing now It will also search for applications So I know I have a system monitor on here so I can open it up type in system monitor and it'll come up so it has a very good job of Searching the system for both applications that you have installed and files on your system now I'm not sure how well it will work if you have a ton of files. This is a brand new installed VM So there's not a lot of files here So it may slow down if you have a ton of files I'm not sure but it uses the same search functionality you get built into GNOME So if you type in tux if you can actually type good Lord It does the same thing here inside of the search application for GNOME it just does it in a prettier manner so Files and applications that are on your system. It does a very good job of finding now One place where it does kind of fall down is searching for applications that are not on your system So if you use just the regular GNOME search and type in like telegram like this It'll eventually come up with telegram from the software store And it will show you anything that's related to that have to that search right from the software center And you see how quick that is if we were to use search light to do the same thing So let's just search for discord. It will search for it, but it's going to take a little bit longer I'm not sure what the delay is there and sometimes it takes even longer than that But it does it does and will search the software center Just like the regular GNOME search will and like I said it will do so in an Aesthetically pleasing manner. It just it looks very nice right and of course it doesn't take up the whole screen It just takes up the center of the screen So when you use the search for GNOME It actually takes you out of whatever you're doing and takes you into this view here And then you have to do your search. So if you search for telegram again or whatever It takes up the entire user experience where if you search for Telegram in search light, it only takes up the small space So the ways of searching may be the same, but it doesn't necessarily take you out of the user experience So it makes it much easier if you're searching for something But you are kind of like looking how you're supposed to spell it or whatever you can do so much easier here Than in the other UI now the last thing that I want to show you here before we jump into the settings is just that it will not Show you anything from the web. So if you turn search search for something like that Eventually it's gonna come up. It does for some reason show you some results from the software center I don't know why that happens to be but it doesn't show you anything from the web if they were to institute Web search inside of this it would make it even more appealing because it has the same Limitations as this here. So if we type in like so you don't get any web results from here either So it's because it's using the same. I'm gonna call it search engine But you get that it uses the same source of the search results as this does so it's going to have the same results and Same limitations. So if they could add web search to it, you know using duck duck go or whatever That'd be make it so much better. So the last thing we should take a look at is installation and Settings so this is a genome extension. So you have to install it through the genome extension manager or through the genome extensions website, however, you manage your extensions and I've chose the genome extensions manager you can get that on flat hub and You just go here search for search light and it's right here and hit install It will install it and then you'll get this entry here inside of your installed extensions And then you have the settings so by default there is no default key binding So you'll have to set your own key binding. I chose all D I was gonna try to use super D because I'm used to Rofi coming up with super D But super D is a minimize key binding for Ubuntu So I couldn't use that but I set the key binding and it will allow you to choose where it will show up If you have multiple monitors, which is really nice It'll also it will also allow you to choose to have it pop up on the monitor that isn't focused So if your cursor is on the other monitor, it would hope it would pop up over there instead of popping up Where the cursor is not that's really nice. It will also allow you to display a Icon up here at the top. So if you didn't want to use a key binding, you could use that as well Oddly it doesn't go away when you click the icon again. You have to hit escape It would be nice if once you click on that it pops up you click it again It should go away it but it does not so that's one thing in terms of appearance You do actually have quite a bit of control over how it looks so you can change the text color the text size and the The search text size you can choose how wide and high it is in terms of the dimensions The border thickness and the border radius and the border color So if you're a themeer you can alter this to look however you want Including how much transparency it has the intensity of the blur and so on and so forth It also allows you to control the brightness So if you have a darker or lighter white wallpaper, you can set it up so that you can at least see it, right? so you do have a fair amount of control over what it looks like which is More honestly than I expected. So that is searchlight. There's not much more here that I can show you It's a really nice alternative to the search that is built into Ubuntu and other genome-based distros that's basically what it is and That's basically all it needs to be I would really like it if they added web search because that would add Even more functionality and it would make it much more like spotlight Which is what it's trying to emulate if you've ever used spotlight before you'll know that it searches basically everything So, you know, it will search through Wikipedia and it will do a Google search and whatever now I understand that as an open-source project. They probably don't want to use proprietary stuff So searching Google's probably out, but you could use duck duck go or Cirques or something like that and that would add a whole bunch more functionality on top of this and that would make it Even more useful. So like I said, that is searchlight a brief little look at a genome extension And then I found pretty useful when I'm in a genome environment So if you have thoughts on this, you can leave those in the comment section below You can follow me on masses on our odyssey those links will be in the video description You can support me on patreon at patreon.com slash Linux cast links for YouTube and the bearer pay will be in the video description Thanks to everybody who does support me on patreon YouTube. You guys are all Absolutely amazing without you the channel does not be anywhere near where it is right now. So thank you so very very very much for your support I truly do appreciate it. You guys are awesome. Thanks everybody for watching. I'll see you next time


Hey good news ladies and gentlemen, Sam Sulek has been seen Alive rating a grocery store's crispy cream section after being hospitalized for overdosing on chocolate milk and Man is this kid popular?  So I mean, this is only food for two days. I'll just get two dozen Actually, I think I lied This is like Walmart, right? Maybe some of you guys are familiar with the background, but if you're buying groceries from a Walmart Nothing's gonna be like super fresh and and you're not really gonna find high quality stuff Now regular conventional eggs are basically poison. At least you're getting some protein and some cholesterol But you know the health of the fats in there with the Omega 6 and the stuff They inject into the chickens the chemicals and pollutants in the feed. It's just soy corn. So it's so bad There we go Three dozen will be a little better Zero sugar and W root beer Not that there's a specific dieting purpose for like zero calorie drinks Apart from the fact that it's just kind of a sweet treat No, one big thing most Americans do is they drink large amounts of fluoridated chemical-filled products, whether it's soda or coffee, Starbucks, stuff in restaurants Just by removing all of those negative Halogens the floor of the chlorine and the chemicals from it. It's it's so important. It's so important you know the more just kind of The more calorie I don't want to say calories safe, but let's just say Calorie effective options that you can go for I mean we're about to get into a couple more but like, you know low sugar barbecue sauce Diet soda, whatever Like this stuff adds up, you know, you got to think if you're drinking Three sodas. Let's say let's say you drink three copes in one day. I mean, that's 120 carbs You really need 120 grams of carbs? Certainly not if you're dieting, but yeah, but these people don't factor in, you know The organ damage and overall cellular damage from consuming all these crappy low calorie foods There are dozens of people in every gym on the treadmill for hours that can't lose weight because They're just so poisoned like it's they're restricting their calories. They're barely eating their eating salads They're doing everything the mainstream has told them is healthy. They're doing cardio They're trying to lose weight yet. They're still blobs of fat on the treadmill and they're tired. They're exhausted. They're suffering You know, they're again, they're restricting their diet. They're working out hard and they're not losing weight And it's because One the foods in the diet are not high quality. They're not good enough to build optimal cellular health And two is the radiation in the environment But this guy is injecting insane amounts of synthetic hormones which offset a lot of those negatives And I wasn't gonna touch on it But you know, he has a road wireless Microphone on his hat anytime you use an electronic device hard wired is always better. It's lower radiation But I mean if you're walking through a grocery store, you're getting fried anyway eggs soda It's cut to what's next. It's actually a little bit far from our rap. I don't think we have to turn this into a whole one-shot podcast Now usually I'd want to go for the fat free cheese But I do just love like the single Americans. Yeah, bro craft singles real genius stuff my most diet friendly Like snack choice, but you know, what are you gonna do? You know surprisingly sometimes Those cheeses are not that bad. It's usually just Ingredients as like cheese or it well It's milk and then maybe like one or two other things like the the enzyme The rennet and it's it's not bad. Sometimes they do add artificial coloring Sometimes there are chemicals and some of these cheeses But if anything cheese might be some of the only quality protein that a lot of people are getting in their diets now even if it's craft singles I've got to be a little bit meticulous here in the fucking cheese aisle because I'm looking for I mean I'm not certain quality At least it's animal protein and I need two of them in space.  That's an extra hundred fifty grams of calorie That's an extra hundred fifty calories Whereas and it's coming from fats and carbs Like and I'm not really getting anything out of it for me to eat some keto bread as a carb source You know what's interesting to me is none of these bodybuilders As far as I know have ever just tried having high quality foods, you know chemical free diets Focusing on animal protein and seeing how it affects their body composition I'm sure they would be so much healthier and just leaner all year round And then all they would have to do is just restrict the calories You know when you're doing extreme stuff like no carbs no fat I mean, I don't think people ever really do no protein, but they're eliminating macronutrients and Every human diet for all of existence for the most part has had All of the macronutrients in it with the rare exception of like the the Inuit Alaskan Eskimos and even then they would eat carbs if they had access to them Like berries and stuff and different plant foods in certain parts of the year But the vast majority you know 99% of all civilizations the diet has carbs fats and proteins the body works the best on all of those So it makes more sense to just eat quality foods And if you want to lose weight you can restrict calories evenly across the board instead of doing extreme diets Eliminating macronutrients so you can eat more food volume or whatever I'm gonna be pretty full for not that many carbs, but for me to take in That's why I just exactly what I said well grams of fat from that cheese and then six grams of carbs I mean, it's not very filling at all. So the fat free cheese. I mean the macros are actually kind of freakin buffed for a whole well 28 grams 9 grams of protein 2 grams of carbs zero fat I guess that's just bodybuilding is this super unrealistic thing like the sky is already Like way more muscular than the average person would ever want to be his body fat levels are already Really really really super lean yet. It's just to the extreme where he wants to be bigger and even more lean So definitely something to be said about how unhealthy and unrealistic bodybuilding is and the guys that girls are drooling over on social media Like it doesn't like I'm more muscular than I think all of those guys for the most part and I'm not even that muscular The girls care about your height your face is up. So the appeal for this is just some weird muscle obsessed What we won't be to me today Won't be to me today. It's from the name to the sauna boys All these little things. I'm I can't emphasize enough how much they add up To changing the amount of calories that you get in for a day without having to feel like you're just you know starving yourself So cutting straight into another classic Maybe your body's alive carb smart buns honestly I've got to eat today tomorrow in the next day. I'm gonna get three of these Yeah, but your body well that you're feeding your gut bacteria with bread of the normal a normal pack of the Hamburger buns like three and a half bucks. These are five. So a little more But the macro difference is insane So let's just look at let's just ran a mess hamburger buns you're cutting it down from 20 grams of carbs So three I think that's a no-brainer in a diet in context especially So honestly we're Getting close to the end. I have a ton of food at a well. I say home at my parents house So it's not like I have to restock a whole kitchen right now. I'm just getting some things that I need So I've been doing ground beef But honestly, I kind of been liking steaks too. So I think I'll get a little bit of each And again, I'm still looking for the The lowest calorie source possible So for ground beef first I'm not going to grab 80 20. That's insane Yeah, but 80 20 is real insane This is probably the leanest I've ever seen It's 96% lean. So I mean it's not nothing But oh, hey boys, we got some great angus prom beef Although I think 96% beef is is pretty healthy I mean there's like basically no fat in it and You know in the context of all like the conventional fila foods you can have that's probably the best food period Nice inflammatory When you drain it out, I mean It's pretty much close like Let me look actually So I'll just cook the whole thing at once and kind of like meal prep it But this whole thing it says 9 oh no, no 18 grams of fat But when I cook it up and I you know pour it into a strainer to drain the fat out I've got to get at least half of it out So I only counted as like This is like honestly, this is like one of the healthiest things you can do not only is he You know avoiding fats, which is typical of bodybuilders to avoid fats when they're cutting He's avoiding carbs too Which you know You have an extremely high protein. Yeah, some bodybuilders do that too, but you have an extremely high protein diet And we've done specific videos that you know protein is the hardest macronutrient on the body It's very difficult to digest It you know just sitting large volumes of protein sitting undigested in the stomach are very inflammatory So you know that combined with him taking stuff like acutane and uh And the drugs and stuff Not healthy That's not my most exact Aspect, but it's I'm definitely you drain out a ton of fat when you drain off the ground beef So now I think I'll just drink some kind of liquid beef vitamins Especially if the beef is that lean into the sirloin to the beef is 96 for when you cook it There's no fat is going to render out of that zero fats rendering out of that It's all beef vitamins.  I mean, there's no point for me to eat one now I don't know if it even shows the It's it's no no i'm not Not sirloin. What am I talking about? I was talking about ribeye Yeah, I was doing a ton of ribeyes, but like if like It's like 30 grams of fat each you can just taste how rich they are So I've been Leaning a little bit more so towards top rounds Oh, yeah, this looks pretty good One pound 10 bucks Yeah, we have actually those for around that price on frankie syringe meat 100 grass fed top round It's the cut used for roast beef. It's usually known as london broil. It's like it's like a cheat not so tender cut of beef, but it's definitely the leanest By you can find ribeyes that are lean you can find any cut of steak that's lean You know people associate Like cuts of meat with set levels of fat in them But it entirely depends on the animals carcass and the intramuscular marbling it developed Depending on the animal genetics and dieting so because if you look at a ribeye and it's just as lean as the top round There's not going to really be that much more fat in it.  So this is the kind of food where I'm not going to be able to just look at the back And read off the macros like per pound or per ounce or for whatever macros I'm actually going to have to go online. That's something bodybuilders don't understand Unless you're eating like lean chicken breasts You can't there's no way to know the specific macronutrient profile of a steak unless you send it into a laboratory And even then it's it's just arbitrary nonsense that is not the solution to being healthy And even what he's trying to do with his exact goals. He'd be 100% better on a diet like mine You know top round So-and-so macros Usually the website will go to the most is like calorie king And you'll be able to plug in like the exact weight of it. Uh It gets kind of weird too because when you do that you have to like look up and side note These types of shirts. I don't know if that's like those buttons. I don't like that much, but it's called like a henley I kind of like it because it's not like as casual as a t-shirt You know, it's got a few buttons on top. So it's not like completely Out there. I don't know and make sure that you're using the right measurement Because I can look up the weight like, you know, four ounces of the Top-round steak whatever but you got to make sure when you do that that it says, you know cooked or raw Usually for the most part calories are in sauna boy sweat, bro That's what these bodybuilders should be worried about Measure it out raw Just because you never Like let's say you cooked it really well done and it's super dry a ton of water came out of it I mean you're just adding complexity to the aspect of weighing it So I think weighing it in its raw state is probably your best method so buns eggs Fat-free cheese as well as normal or you should weigh Your brain Before and after this crazy diet to see the volume of brain cells that you lost From the nutrient starvation that low fat diet Ground beef a steak Oh, yeah, so when I make the egg whites Just plain eggs. It's kind of bland.  Well Let me think for like one more second but obviously There's no donuts. There's no cereal. I was walking by the chocolate milk. It's getting a little bit distracted Where's the crispy cream sponsorship? That's just how you got to do it You got to take the bulk with the cut so I'm definitely starting to feel the there's no low carb crispy. I'd give it maybe No, not even I say we got four weeks left Four weeks, maybe five weeks of Crispy cream is going to come out with the sam's solid condition keto low carb donuts down And then we can start bulking up again. I'm getting a little bit too excited. I need to I need to not jump the gun on it But that's pretty much about all I'm going to get for the next couple of days I'm going to eat different kind of food at home, but you know This is just stuff that I'm getting from me specifically If your mom's getting all your groceries, you know, if you're in my high school kid demographic And just give her a little grocery list. Tell you want some some this that or the other These poor kids are lucky their parents even feed them with the attitude of some of these parents now It's definitely difficult Because it's really always a budget thing and people struggle with money. So Ideally, she'll get it for you. It'll be perfect It gets kind of funky tracking on your macros and stuff if you're only eating like food that your mom cooks Uh, so I mean ever since I started lifting even early high school My advice to high school kids is If you if anything just get your parents to buy as much red meat as possible you need The vitamins and the minerals and the protein and the red meat to develop the other stuff It's it's not as big of a deal, but you know If you eat a lot of red meat, you know, you're from a certain age, you're gonna end up like over six feet tall You're gonna at least be tall which for a guy is Is one of the most well the most important thing in like if you care a lot about Getting a girlfriend or finding a mate or that type of stuff. So most important thing for high school kids Is just get your parents to buy you some red meat If there's budget issues if there's restrictions if there's only one thing that you can focus on that would be it The house kind of transitioned from like family meals to everybody kind of doing their own stuff Just because we all kind of get our own way but I think that's it. Let's cut to the car talk for our arms Okay, so grocery trip is over Uh, you know a lot of indigenous groups. I mean every indigenous group They all ate the same stuff because they all had high quality Natural foods and they were all healthy and there was a sense of community and all that type of stuff But uh, you know his cutting diet it's not like Food choice wise It doesn't look that bad But the fact that he has like no fats or no carbs in the diet is the bigger issue Small amount of chemicals overall low food quality, but it's it's not Half as bad as as the first few days of eating we saw him doing from from like the bodybuilding fitness perspective meal prep stuff The only thing reasonable that we've ever seen these people eat is just like plain meals of steak and rice That's that's really the only legitimate thing that I would think it's safe to eat on From an overall health perspective on a consistent basis. So Thank you guys for joining me.  I'm gonna Go to work in a little bit as usual Uh, so if you guys do want to support me We have a lot of new and interesting products on frankie strange meat and frankie strange foods dot com highest quality unique Best prices online most affordable. You guys are supporting small businesses Uh, local Amish farmers, you know people who are interested in health products and all the money just goes right back into the business In providing you guys with high quality affordable stuff That's why we have new stuff every week because all these other businesses They're too busy buying their daughters Mercedes and you know, they're call They're going to nice colleges and then that type of stuff.  What the point is check out frank dash phone com support support the local businesses and um and smaller people Instead of this amazon casco wal-mart evil nonsense But outside of that guys drop like on the video Leave a comment down below and make sure to subscribe and check that notification bell And above all please share it, you know, if you like the products if you like anything Let your friends know about it.


Alright guys so we're going to start off today's technique working vertical, straight down center back and then I'm going to pivot from that point working a traveling guide all the way to behind the ear on both sides. The key thing here is elevation guys. This you need to make sure that you're lifting it to at least 90 degrees so that you don't get any weight lines within the haircut and it'll give you nice soft layers tons of volume as you work through it. Now the other thing I want you to notice is that I'm pushing my guideline to the new section that's going to help me travel across the head and keep an even consistent line in the horizontal part of the haircut. So just vertically elevate it above 90 degrees work your way around pivot around the head and you'll be good to go in the back so check it out guys and then we'll start working on the sides. Alright guys so now we're going to move into the side of the head. I'm going to remove that bang area as well and we're going to start taking diagonal forward partings bringing everything elevating it up bringing it over top of the nose the higher the elevation here guys the more weight you're going to take out so just remember that as you're working through it. I keep taking vertical partings all the way through elevating the hair up and point cutting my line that gives me a nice soft line it removes weight and length from the front and pushes the weight and length to the back we're going to repeat that process on the right hand side here and then you guys will see that full effect happening again elevation is key point cutting softens your line and you just work through the head you can see the other little trick here is I'm taking out some of that temple area that's just to keep some density on the bottom and I'll go in and cut into that later. So to kick off this style we're going to use Paul Mitchell aloe pui wild ginger hydro cream whip I love this product just to add some shine hold it's got a nice little medium hold to it you can create volume in the hair and it just makes the hair nice and healthy and then I also go in when I'm 90 dry spray in Paul Mitchell express style hot off the press and I spray that through and then I start my round brushing work now I'm using the ergo brushes these are available on shop fse if you guys are looking to upgrade your round brushes they have an extra wide barrel which is great for long hair working through the hair they also have tourmaline bristles which basically are negative charge so they help lay that cuticle down they help speed up your drying time I love these brushes I'm using the number 53 this is a larger brush just to work through and polish the hair out and then I'll go in I'm going to do some other iron work with the wand later and that can kind of change up your style but just to see how that brush works through the hair how smooth and polish the hair gets that's combining it the hydro cream whip with the round brush it's just a killer combo so now lifting the hair up as much as possible creating that volume that on base kind of feel to the round brushing and now I take it out and you're going to see how much just smooth volume you'll see all those layers come to life it's just awesome and now we're just going to go in and cut our perimeter I always like to do this last because then I can really see how much hair needs to come off it's all about keeping the hair long and strong for your guests so I'm just working through there and deciding and we're also cutting kind of a v-shape in the hair as well somebody requested that during the live video so we just kind of put a little v-shape into it and now we finish it off with the palm Mitchell wand iron little tip here just aim that wand down at the floor wrap the hair around it just work your way all the way around the head kind of wrapping everything off of the face and then you get a nice kind of lived in textured tons of volume you're going to see it right here we finish it off with alpui wild ginger finishing spray and just check it out explosion of layers everywhere texture volume you can imagine this on your long hair guest I hope you guys liked it let me know in the comments below if you have any questions otherwise subscribe to the channel like the video hit that notification bell so you guys get an alert anytime our videos go out my videos like this going out all of the time thank you guys so much for watching I'll see you on the next one


What's up everybody, Jayce here for jayspeakscasebrakes.com. We're getting away 10 2019 NT first half the line spots away And this 16 optic football mega box break number 12 random teams And first we do the break guys to randomize customer names and teams and should be the hits out Then at the end of the break we'll randomize only the customer names And that's actually copy and paste them now and Customers in the top 10 out of the 32 will win a spot each in NT first off the line We've got to do one more of these fillers to unlock the break. So we'll post that up soon right now But let's do the break first Rollets Four and a two six times. Good luck. One two three four five and six Brandon down to David six times here one two three four five Six rounds out of the Texans And again stick to what you got guys is 2016 football So that is the Carson Wentz Michael Thomas Jared Goff All right, so there you go Whatever I was good man Stick to what you got. Let's quickly rip open this filler And then we'll get back to some new releases guys. All right. We got Michael Thomas. That's a rookie as well Very nice for the Saints Will Fuller Conor Cook Hollow Hopkins Hardell Jones Miles Jack Zeke so much a waste of cardboard right here Jalen Smith Tyreek Hill Hollow silver very nice Trevor Davis Nate Sudfeld I mean look man, I know they want to get us out there, but just Save the trees Alright guys switch scenes down. Let's give away those spots in the break So we're top ten get in let's roll it We got ourselves a Six and a five eleven times one two three four five six seven eight nine ten And eleven the final time All right, eleven times Don David Don Matthew Don Anthony Adam Russell Christopher Don and Brandon are sorry No, sorry. Sorry about that went overboard ten top ten So there you go after eleven times. I was thinking top eleven for a second eleven Six five top ten get in congratulations guys another way to win Should be posted up soon. That'll be the last filler we need to do to get done with the break. Appreciate it guys


Good evening. Good morning. Let's see if I can get this thing to work. That will be my first test. Okay. So, some of you are wondering what G Executive is doing in a conference like this. It's almost like a crop duster coming to an organic grower conference. But let me give you, take the next 15 minutes and try to explain what we're building. Maybe by the end of the talk I'll be able to convince you that we are working on the same thing that you're working on. Internet of Things. IoT. Very important thing. You can see it everywhere. Everybody's talking about the numbers of devices that are showing up, the storage that is going on. You have four or five very important companies working on that. Google, Amazon, Apple, maybe Microsoft sometimes when they feel like it. Overall, these are very important companies and they have about 19%, not only they, they have about 8%, but overall the software industry is all about 19% of the S&P 500 total market value. Very important. Egg-cookers that connect to each other, communicating toothbrushes, belt buckles that light up, all kinds of interesting things. This is not what we're talking about. We're talking about something much more important. And you may not feel it, but at the end of the day when you open the faucet, you're using G equipment at the other end of the line. When you turn on the lights, there is a turbine at the other end that actually produces this power, this wattage that you're using. If you're taking on a flight, which some of you are going to do after I'm done and the next speaker is going to be done, you will be flying 70% chance a G aviation product. So overall we're talking about big, dirty, noisy machines that are very important for our life in general, our well-being specifically. Now the interesting thing about that is all those things have sensors and they talk day and night, 24-7, and somebody needs to analyze them and make sure that we understand exactly what's going on with them. If you look at the numbers of the sensors on those machines, we are approaching to the point where there are 20 billions of them and they create about 80 exabytes of data. Now this is a lot of information and the reason we want to collect it is not to break any privacy rules or do anything of that sort, but really to understand how we can optimize those assets potential to generate more revenues, how to make sure the production and the livelihood of those companies that actually are working with those assets much smoother and how do we make sure that we can extend those assets and allow them to generate revenues in the years to come. Those things are actually going on for a very long time. Some of those assets were put in place 30-35 years ago, naturally they didn't have all the controllers and the computer environment that we're looking at today, but the goals of GE and the companies that are working with the same ecosystem is to make sure that we really build this thing we call the industrial internet. You have the consumer internet, you have the enterprise internet, Salesforce, Splunk and so on, and you have the industrial internet and the industrial internet actually is going after that part of the GDP that is a little bit the underserved community, right? It's not something that every day you wake up and with thinking about how a turbine talks to another piece of equipment on that internet, but we would assert that this is really tomorrow's growth opportunity. There is a big difference between the two. At one level they don't look that different, but actually if you think about that, there's a huge difference in several key dimensions and that's why we're here today. First, the average longevity of those devices and no offense to the toothbrushes and the rice cookers is that usually people use them for about six months. It can be a nice woreables that you bought. It can be a nice gadget. These things actually are working for about six months on the average. Our assets need to work day in, day out for about 30, 35 years and when you think about that actually a lot of people have to make a lot of the operators have to make those decisions about whether they take the drill into maintenance or forget about maintenance and keep drilling oil because the price of oil is jumped by five dollars. Those decisions are really deep economical decisions that people have to make as they go and work those assets. If you think about the other part, connectivity, the biggest problem that we can have is that coal will be dropped. There definitely are certain loss of productivity when people can talk to each other, but when you have a block preventer that you have to overhaul or upgrade in the middle of a subset drilling operations and you know that if that block preventer is not going to work the way it should then God forbid another oil spill is going to be upon us. This is where connectivity is becoming very important and so not only we have to make sure that we will be able to get this connectivity all the time but we also have to make provisions for when the connectivity is intermittent or really to some extent unavailable. If you're in the middle of the sea, usually unlikely that you're going to have a cell operating in the vicinity, you have to rely on satellite communication, you have to optimize the cost of that, you have to make sure that under any circumstances the industrial assets will be able to keep working. Big difference. Data management. Let's talk about how many exabytes we need. If you think about that, there are about I think 10 million or 10, 10 million. Yeah, something along the lines of every second of tweets that are happening in the network. There's about 80 gigabytes a day and this is basically a very respectable number. If you look at Facebook, you're talking about hundreds of petabytes a year. Now let's look at what happens when you deal with G aviation and this is only G aviation. 500 gigabytes for every flight. It's all the data about the engine, the airframe, the vibration, the cabin temperature. It's important for mechanical engineers that build the airframe. It's important for G aviation folks that build the engines and it's important for the marketing and the performance scientists in the airlines that would like to understand whether the cabin was too warm or too cold. There are about 100,000 flights every day that are happening in the United States. If we only took the part that we are dealing with, which is GE is dealing with, which is about 70 percent market share, we're talking about 70 percent of 100,000 flights times half a terabyte. I think in my math it's about 50 petabytes a day. So we're talking about unprecedented amount of information and for the first time in history people actually know what to do with all this data. Because if you go and analyze that you're going to figure out how to build better engine, faster engine, how to make sure that the blades, the turbine blades actually can last much longer. So you have an end-to-end picture of everything that we're building. Security. Everybody wants the devices to be secure but would you pay a hundred dollars more for secure phones? Maybe you're in the intelligence community or a very, a business that is exposed to industrial espionage, that may be the case. Normal consumers don't pay for that. Our industry will pay a lot to make sure that their devices don't get hacked. I mean I'm not sure, I don't think I'm telling you any secret, but you can actually hack into pretty much everything unless there is enough security in that. And if somebody goes and farts around with a turbine or an MRI machine or a CT scanner, this is actually have some very important and very unfortunate consequences. Most of the things we're building are considered national critical infrastructure. They have to work all the time. We want to make sure that the end of the day the industrial internet is not only high performance but also high security. And we cannot tolerate breaches either by nation states or just by bad people that would like to play around with some of those assets that we have at our disposal. Zuckerberg said several years ago that privacy is no longer the social norm. And to some extent, while everybody was upset about that, it is true. We are much less private today than we're 20 years ago. It's okay to put things on Facebook. It's okay to tweet whatever the heck you think about. But at the end of the day, when it comes down to a different set of devices, again, the industrial devices, the medical equipment, this is where the privacy is not just a matter of sentiment of somebody or a doctor or a patient. It's a regulated and required property of the overall system. You have to be YPA compliant. You have to be ITER compliant. You have to have ISO 27000. You have all these standards that some of us may or may not agree with the fact that there are actually have some sort of a burden on our system. But it is what it is. The politicians, the people, the governments have all decided that this is how the set of equipment that we are building has to behave. And we have to make sure the industrial Internet, while at the risk of being a little bit more bureaucratic, is something that enables us to really serve and comply with those standards. So with that in mind, we had to build something that will allow us to really take all this data, make sure it's secure enough, it's compliant with the right standards, ingest it, store it, clean it, and make sure that at a certain point we can take all of that, analyze that, and come back to the operator of those assets with insights. What is that they need to do that will make the operation of those things better, more profitable, and prevent the bane of the industry that we're dealing with, which is called unplanned downtime. Unplanned downtime is when you sit on an airplane and the captain comes in and says, well, this plane is not going to fly today. Everybody gets out, everybody goes find a different plane. This is something that was not maintained, it was not planned. If it were planned, then you wouldn't be sitting in this plane where it should sit in a hunger and get worked upon, right? So at the end of the day, this is what we're trying to optimize. We're trying to optimize the operation of assets. We're trying to give our operators some insights about what is that they need to do. So we had to focus on higher level of the stack and for that we need to find the right level, the right lower levels to make sure that we can do it at scale. GE is working in 170 countries around the world. We have to make sure it's reliable because our customers don't expect anything less than 24.7, 4.9, sometimes 5.9s, and we want to make sure that we can get something that will allow us to push the envelope as we build the industrial Internet for years to come. And this is what where we started working with Cloud Foundry. It was not actually a natural journey because for GE, a company that has been doing what it's doing for 130 years to go and change everything we know about software, getting the Cloud Foundry culture, working with Pivotal and other players in the ecosystem was not very simple. But what it did, it allowed us to actually get, move a lot of the people that were working on that level in the past and deploying them on a higher level of the stack so we can work on the analytics and we can work on the way to ingest and keep the data and make sure we can get into the right data at record time without sacrificing the reliability or the completeness of that. Some of the data that we have to keep, we keep because we like it and because we think it's going to be good for us to understand what the assets are doing. Some of the data we have to keep is because we were told to keep it, right? The government told us to keep it. These are regulated data that we cannot get rid of. So Cloud Foundry was paramount in our ability to lift the discussion and lift the focus of what we're doing to a completely different level that will get us closer to the industrial internet abstraction. What is an asset? What is a locomotive, really? When you think about it, a locomotive is a big thing running on railways, but at the same time, it's 150,000 parts traveling together. And sometimes you have to look at the locomotive as the big hunk of iron. Sometimes you have to look at the part and figure out where's the right depot, where's the spare parts, and where are the other locomotives that that part is installed in? All those things are things that we have to think about it and solve it ourselves because, frankly, there's nobody in the ecosystem that will do it. Other things, we rely on Cloud Foundry. So a case at point is a wind turbine. If you look at a wind turbine, it's a magnificent thing, by the way. If you get all the way up, it's awesome. But if you look at that, if you think about what we're doing, wind turbines, it's like a wolf. It's never, basically, it never hunts alone, never deployed alone. Usually, you have a wind farm. And the interesting about wind farm is that when you have all this wind that is coming to you, you can optimize the operation of a specific turbine, but by doing that, you're going to create wake turbulence that will compromise the operation of the turbine behind that. So what you want to do is you want to create the analytics that will allow you to optimize the performance of the whole farm. And so some of the execution will have to be in the predict system, some of the execution of the analytics systems have to be at the controller level, and some of the execution has to be at the specific turbine. All those things have to be dynamically balanced because sometimes the issue is local, sometimes the issue is regional, and sometimes the issue wind and everything else is much more sectorial in that respect. Now, the data that you get is about happening. You collect data that if you look at that, at the time series data, it's pretty much every fraction of a microsecond. And so there's a lot of data to ingest. We have to put it somewhere. We have to now analyze that that what Cloud Fundry does for us or that what Cloud Fundry enables us to do as we go and solve the predicts problems. So to that extent, we had to do two things. We were excited to do two things. One is to build the incubator for the industrial protocols. If you think about what we're doing, we have a lot of data that we need to generate. Those pieces of data cannot just flow on an HTTP channel, which is what we got from Cloud Fundry. But in the best period of open community, we have built, we are working on the FTP level of protocol routing in such a way that we'll be able to take those industrial protocols and move them into the cloud. And we are contributing the result of that project back to the open source community. And the other thing, it looks like everybody, every real person need a dojo. So we have a dojo too. And this dojo is all about the industrial Internet. Industrial Internet is too big for GE, even as a 350,000 people company to take on itself. And so this is something that we're opening up on the other side of the bay in our local headquarters in San Ramon. And what we would like to see and what we start to see now that other than Pivotal and GE and some other distinguished members, we would like to see pretty much representative of the whole community coming and work with us on really pushing the envelope on what we call the industrial Internet. At the end of the day, this is just the beginning. So now that I explained why GE is here, I'm looking forward to being here again next year or any time in between and actually working with you folks and anybody else that wants to come and join us on really pushing forward this industrial Internet. I think it's going to be great. Thank you very much.


Welcome, everyone. We'll just get started, but folks who are getting lunch, please feel free to finish up and others. Refresh your plates, as you like. So welcome. My name is Jessica Fielde. I'm the Assistant Director of the Cyber Law Clinic here at the Berkman Klein Center. I want to remind everyone that this event is being webcast live and recorded for our website. So both in terms of your consent for participating in that. But also, there will be opportunities for questions at the end, so just make sure if you ask a question, please wait for the microphone so folks online can hear you. If you want to comment on social media or live tweet, please use the hashtag BKCHarvard. And one last announcement. We just added a new event for next Monday. Amanda Askell from OpenAI will be here giving a lunch talk on competitive AI development without collective action programs. So that looks to be totally fascinating. Hope you can join us. Maybe you can get in a question or two about their GPT tool that they are not releasing since there'll be someone from OpenAI on the hot seat. So as for today, the Berkman Klein Center has a long history of involvement at the intersection of digital technologies and human rights, essentially as long as there has been an intersection of those things. And so we're very delighted to be welcoming today David Sullivan, who's the director of learning and development at the Global Network Initiative, to address some key questions and tell us some juicy stories about this space. Questions like, how can advocates, activists, and academics work with technology companies to advance human rights? And how do we properly do that is when is a public name and shame campaign a more effective mechanism versus a confidential conversation? David's experience answering these questions in partnership with tech companies range from situations involving conflict minerals and hardware supply chains to fighting censorship and surveillance online with organizations from the Center for American Progress and the International Rescue Committee. He'll talk about these questions and share stories for about 20 minutes. We will then welcome Berkman Klein fellow Chinmai Arun, who is assistant professor of law at the National University Delhi and the founding director of the Center for Communication Governance to engage in discussion with David for a little bit. And then I will pop back up to help moderate your question. So please save those for the end. Join me in welcoming David Sullivan. So thank you, Jess, for the very kind introduction. Thanks to everybody from the Berkman Klein Center for the opportunity to be here today. Working with Berkman faculty, staff, fellows, associates, students, interns has been a highlight of my time at the Global Network Initiative, but all done from far away. So I'm happy to be here with folks today and really looking forward to the discussion. Just for those of you who might be unfamiliar, so I work at the Global Network Initiative, which brings together technology companies with human rights groups, press freedom groups, socially responsible investors and academics to work on a common approach to freedom of expression and privacy online and sort of resisting government pressure to enlist companies in censorship and surveillance. But today I'm going to start with a story from a previous experience working on conflict minerals from Eastern Congo. I'm going to try to keep my remarks brief to save time for conversation, but I'm going to tell you how I got to find myself across the table from Steve Jobs and Cupertino talking about human rights, highlight a few points from that conversation that have wider relevance, I think, to the digital rights community, and then we can really get into it in the discussion. So yeah, the second half of my career sort of working with technology companies on tough human rights issues really came out of the first half of my career, which was working on humanitarian aid, relief and development and peace and security with a focus on the African continent. And in 2008, I started working at the ENOUGH Project at the Center for American Progress, which was working to try to influence US policy in support of peace in Eastern Congo and other conflict zones in Africa. And I should say that the multiple conflicts sort of across the Democratic Republic of Congo are deeply complicated and really outside the scope of this lunchtime talk, but at ENOUGH, we worked with field researchers based on the ground, including Congolese researchers, to study the conflict dynamics and try to identify sort of points of leverage where the United States could change its policies in support of peace. And then we, so we took that field analysis and we worked together with advocacy groups here in the United States from grassroots student groups, faith-based organizations, investors, and even a few celebrities, as you can see from the photographer for the book that actually this story was recently published in, Congo Stories by my colleagues, Fidel Bafalamba and John Prendergast, which I recommend is a good entry point into studying Congo's very fascinating and complicated history. So in 2009, so roughly 10 years ago, our field research had zeroed in on a previously neglected dimension of this crisis. Much of Eastern Congo's vast mineral wealth was fueling the conflict, enriching armed groups, whether it was kind of rebel groups or unaccountable elements of the Congolese army, all of whom were perpetrating horrific violence against people on the ground there. And the most lucrative of natural resources, these minerals, gold, tin, tantalum, and tungsten, which we call the three T's, would flow from mines that were in some cases controlled by armed groups through trading routes, which were taxed by armed groups or army units, to traders in the major cities in the region, out to mostly to Asia, to processing and smelting facilities where they would then enter into all kinds of supply chains, but particularly those for high tech electronics and hardware. So these are the four conflict minerals that we talked about. Tin is commonly used as a solder on circuit boards. Tungsten has a wide variety of kind of industrial applications, but interestingly enough, it's used for the vibration function on cell phones. Tantalum is a store's electricity, holds a charge, is used in capacitors that are used in kind of every type of electronic gadget. And gold is often in wiring, as well as being used for jewelry and all of those kinds of things. One thing today, there's a lot of concern about cobalt, which is essential for batteries, in which Congo has very high reserves of. But at the time that we were working on this, the regions where the conflict was taking place was not the regions where cobalt was mined. So it was not kind of included in this work, but there's been a lot of work done on this issue and a lot of companies are also looking at cobalt supply chains the way they're looking at these mineral supply chains. So we looked into this and we looked into what companies were doing. And we found that companies were aware of this link between the conflict in Congo and their products, but few had really done more than post vague written assurances on their corporate social responsibility website, saying that they instructed their suppliers not to source from Congo or not to source conflict minerals, but there wasn't any independent verification or followup to ensure that that was true. And so what we did was started a multi-pronged campaign to encourage both government and company action on this issue. So we pushed for legislation that had bipartisan support that was gonna mandate company supply chain due diligence and which was eventually actually passed as part of the 2010 Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform Bill. And we also campaigned publicly and privately with companies encouraging them to take action themselves to sort of trace and audit their supply chains. Now at the time, technology companies were really dealing with this issue through an industry association. That was a bit of a word salad, the electronics industry citizenship coalition, global e-sustainability initiative, working group on supply chains or something like that. And while common industry action was important, we were worried that outsourcing this to an industry association could sort of result in a response that would be incommensurate to the urgency of the issue and kind of allow for a lowest common denominator approach where many companies could sort of free ride on the work of the few companies that were really leading the work of this industry association. So what we did was we wrote to 21 leading consumer electronics companies seeking individual meetings and commitments from them. And companies responded in a wide variety of different ways. Intel and Hewlett Packard, very quick to contact us and to work with us and to take things forward. Other companies, Nintendo didn't come around for years but didn't really hear from them. Apple, sort of the subject of today was squarely in the middle of the pack. So they were members of this industry association but they weren't particularly active in it. And once our campaigning sort of started to get some traction, we heard from their government relations team in Washington DC, they said, oh, we care about this. Could you maybe tell us where we should and shouldn't be getting our minerals from which seemed kind of odd. They wouldn't take a position on the legislation and said they don't take a position on legislation across the board. And so we sort of felt like we were being managed but because they took the same position as all of the other companies in the industry, it was hard to kind of single them out as being particularly good or bad. And so that changed in early 2010 when an activist named Lisa Shannon who is now a Kennedy School graduate and car center fellow, she protested outside of a bunch of tech company headquarters across Silicon Valley and the West Coast and she went to Apple headquarters where a PR person told her, Apple doesn't use conflict minerals. Our suppliers certify that they are clean. And so with those words, the company kind of stepped away from what had been this kind of agreed position, oh, this is a tough problem and we need an industries wide solution. And that kind of opened the space for us to do a little bit more sort of concerted advocacy, really targeting Apple. And so we had, well, student groups that we were working with protested the opening of the Apple store in Georgetown in Washington, DC. Video that we developed spoofed the old kind of I'm an Apple, I'm a PC ads and pointed out that both contain conflict minerals. Nick Kristoff covered this in The Times and our legislation was moving forward on Capitol Hill. So it was kind of unprecedented success. So at the time Steve Jobs was back in the CEO position and some folks will remember that he was in the habit of responding to emails sent to his email address which was kind of widely known and available sjobsandapple.com. And every time he did it, he would trigger a news cycle about whatever it was that he was responding to or speaking out about. And so this person, Derek wrote to him and asked about conflict minerals and he responded and said, yes, we certify but until there's a way to chemically trace these things, it's a very difficult problem. And so this was all across the technology press. And so our team, we were trying to figure out what do we do? Is there some way we can, could we reach out to this Derek guy and get him to respond? Or what should we do? When we settled on the idea that we would write Steve Jobs ourselves and tell him our arguments for why we think that there is something that could be done here. So we crafted this email and I sort of hit send on it, not really expecting to ever particularly hear back from him. But, and then the following day, actually where it was a very busy day in DC, we were doing a panel event with the Congolese Ambassador of Congress, someone from the State Department and I was kind of freaking out because all our speakers weren't at the event yet and I sort of look at my phone and I see this email that says, I'm happy to chat with your CEO. So after our event, kind of we gather the team in a completely giddy state and they're like, oh my God, what are we gonna do about this? We got way ahead of ourselves, had drafted up a multi-page response to a one line email. And so I get back to my desk after this long day and I see that I've missed a call. And so my phone just says missed call Apple. And I'm like, all right, this is probably someone from their DC office or from their communications office calling to sort of follow up or to be not happy with what was going on. And so I was like, all right, I should just call them back. And so I call back and this person voices, hello. And I was like, oh, this is David Sullivan from enough returning your call. And he's like, yeah, you got Steve Jobs. I told you, I'd speak to your CEO. I was like, okay, I'll do that. And so fast forward a couple of days and some colleagues of mine, my boss, John Prendergast, we got back, get on the phone with Steve.  And the conversation did not go well.  And we didn't take the bait and we didn't back down. And we said, actually, the bill that we've been supporting was actually moving forward. It had been rolled into the Obama administration signature Wall Street Reform Act. So if that was passing, this was passing in it. And that actually, we think that not only do we have these ideas about how you can trace your supply chains, but other companies are supportive of them as well. And I think particularly when we said that Intel was working on it, he was like, that's a company I respect. Okay. And so he was far from convinced, but he said, I'll read a memo and we'll take it from there. So we put our ideas into writing. And a few weeks later, we wound up going out to Cupertino for a meeting with Steve Jobs and Tim Cook and a number of other senior Apple executives. So let me just stop right now and say, if you are going to a meeting at Apple headquarters, don't bring a PowerPoint presentation that is frowned upon, it does not go well. It does not get things off to a great start. Despite that, we made an initial presentation of our ideas to do for companies to do this human rights due diligence by auditing their supply chains, having independent audits of the supply chains and supporting the creation of a certification scheme, which would sort of allow for minerals to be ethically and responsibly sourced from Congo. So Steve Jobs was still skeptical and the conversation that ensued was combative at times and collaborative at times. But I'm sort of telling the story because I think there were four moments from it that stood out that sort of were interesting to me as someone who's been working with technology at companies on human rights, which I hope can be sort of the basis for talking about how to do this in the digital rights space later in the session today. So the first point was about how to get companies kind of to pay attention, how to get companies on the hook to do something about a given issue.  If I have to start caring about this issue, I have to start caring about every other issue under the sun and every other conflict under the sun. And so while I personally thought that maybe it would be good for him to care about Congo as well as all of these other things, we countered that the issue here was directly connected, directly linked to Apple's supply chain and to their products and services. And that the success and innovation of Apple didn't have a direct connection to Peace in the Middle East but it did have a connection back to these mining communities in Eastern Congo that were ravaged by conflict. And so in the UN guiding principles on business and human rights, this is what's called conducting human rights due diligence and it's where a company is supposed to identify and assess the nature of the actual and potential adverse human rights impacts with which a business enterprise may be involved. And the key distinction between human rights due diligence and other sort of company corporate risk management work is this is about risks to people, not risks to the business. And when a company kind of is assessing human rights risks and impacts, they're supposed to look to see whether they caused a certain human rights violation, contributed it to it or were directly linked to it via their products or a business relationship. And so while this discussion with Steve Jobs was happening sort of contemporaneously with when John Ruggy was developing the UN guiding principles on business and human rights, I think it's a good example of how you can use that kind of approach because we said you're directly linked to these things. What you need to do if you're directly linked to a human rights abuse through your supply chain is to generate some leverage to try to stop the violation of adverse impact. And so we argued that if you are to map your supply chains back to the sources and then be able to use your commercial leverage to have folks who are supplying you do their due diligence, you can help contribute to resolving the situation. And that's kind of what happened. So the second point is sort of knowing when you've succeeded to an extent. And so Steve Jobs, he told us that Apple did more than anybody to map their supply chains, that they were an industry leader and that we should be thankful for all the work that they were doing there. And he then went off on a little bit of a screed about Greenpeace. And Greenpeace had previously ranked tech companies on environmental concerns and he was saying that Greenpeace's rankings were dumb. Their criteria was bad. He wouldn't listen to anything that Greenpeace had to say. They just went ahead and made the greenest computer that had ever been made. And so again, I didn't say anything, but I was thinking to myself, wow, Greenpeace really was effective in inculcating some change here. And then right there on the spot, he sort of agreed, okay, Apple's gonna map their supply chains all the way back to the mines if possible. They're gonna identify all of the smelters and processors that they work with and they're gonna sort of go for it. And it was kind of a game-changing moment and because they had just committed to the sort of first two parts of our three-part ask. They were gonna trace and audit their supply chains. And then he was kind of like, all right, so what else are we not doing that you think we should be doing? And at this point, I had been quiet in my meeting letting my boss and others do a lot of talking, but I was like, I really wanna try to push for this certification mechanism or third part, it would really help on the ground. And I said, you know, what about that?   And so despite being on the receiving end of a certain amount of fury there, we recognized that we had kind of accomplished an enormous amount. So at that point, another issue that came up was sort of secrecy and transparency. And so we could have gone public about this meeting right after it happened. I think that probably would have brought even more attention to the issue than was already there. But it sort of went against an approach that Steve Jobs went on about in the meeting saying Apple doesn't talk about what it's gonna do. It does things and then it talks about them. And he was very critical of our approach seeking commitments from companies of what they would commit to do in the future. He said, do it and then get it done. And so by not talking about the meeting and by keeping things secret, we created a kind of confidential space where we could continue to work with Apple's supply chain teams and to sort of figure this out. And that to me is similar to a lot of the work that we do at the Global Network Initiative where we provide the safe space for internet and telecoms companies to work with academics and NGOs and others. It's a different approach. It's one thing to be the organization that says we're going to be public and identify the issue that a company needs to deal with and then it's on the company to resolve it. To work behind the scenes, you actually have to problem solve, working with the company. Some people may feel like no, that's for the company that created this issue to do. We're just going to bring it to them and they should fix it. I think it's good to have an ecosystem of kind of accountability organizations and activists where there's room for different types of approaches at different times. So the last point that I want to make is that we were doing this inside and outside game where we were sort of working with bringing policy expertise and field research to activists and advocates and we were trying to bring a bit of activist energy to sort of insider policy debates. One part of that was we were planning to do a ranking of company performance on conflict minerals. And this was one issue where things were not copacetic at the end of our meeting. Apple was really unhappy with this ranking. They wanted to decline to participate. One executive told us that the ranking was too focused on areas that do not result in real change and could prevent the teamwork needed across the industry to drive action. So we explained to Apple that the rankings were going to be based on publicly available information. They could decline to participate but they were still going to be ranked. And so actually in the rankings that we did right after this they were in the middle of the pack because the changes we had talked about with Steve Jobs and his team hadn't been reflected yet. And it wasn't until a subsequent 2017 ranking that the organization did long after I had moved on that they sort of moved up to the top. I don't know if anybody in the room is familiar with who's worked on the ranking digital rights project that Rebecca McKinnon is working on. But I think folks who have worked on that will recognize the skepticism from companies about rankings. There's a lot of companies, even ones that land at the top of these kinds of things that do not like them and feel that they do not encourage kind of collaboration with the industry. But I think that you need a mix of competition and collaboration. So when you look at sort of tech issues and digital rights you see companies competing with each other to be more transparent in things like transparency reports and things like that. And innovations that fire up the competitive instincts of these companies that are really fiercely competing with each other can be valuable. So whether it's ranking digital rights or electronic frontier foundations, gold stars for there who has your back report these things do motivate companies I think more than anything. But you also need that cross industry collaboration. In our meeting Tim Cook sort of pointed out, listen we need the industry to work on conflict minerals because you need to aggregate leverage in the supply chain to be able to go to these middle men and say that you need to change your ways. So we've tried to do both at enough and we've tried to foster that collaborative environment within the global network initiative while still allowing other actors out there to kind of work on the ranking and the competing aspect. So the struggle for security and human rights in Eastern Congo very much continues today. Congolese people are the ones who are leading the drive for peace and democracy. You cannot solve a conflict in North and South Kivu from a boardroom in Cupertino but you can sort of start to change some of the C-no-evil kind of calculations that allowed us all to sort of unknowingly kind of contribute to fueling this conflict based on our sort of desire to have the latest technology at the lowest possible prices. The work that we did was a combination of a great deal of luck, even more privilege and the talents of a really fantastic team of researchers, activists, grassroots groups. So it's very much not my accomplishment. It is theirs and it is far from done and the people who are continuing to work on these issues today are, you know, kind of deserve a lot of admiration and support. I hope this helps us and I think about corporate accountability in other sectors and in other spaces and I'm looking forward to the discussion with Chinmai and with all of you. Thanks. So I wanted to ask you just because I'm convinced that someone in this room might find themselves in front of Mark one day. You told that story in a very self deprecating way but I also felt like it was an illustration of the importance of strategic silence sometimes and from that point of view, I wonder if you could discuss this tension between calling out and collaborating when you're negotiating with the likes of Steve and Mark. To me, I think it's important because I do think this is better. Okay, I think that increasingly in order to really kind of make change in the technology industry and with tech companies, we can sort of push from the bottom up but there also needs to be that connection at the top and to really sort of drive home the point to the senior most executives and investors across the sort of technology space of the importance of human rights and I commend the Berkman Klein Center for sort of, you know, fostering those discussions. I think it's a tough call to make. We used kind of every tool and the kind of activist arsenal to get the attention of senior people and this was an unusual setting. For the most part, we're working with people who are, you know, kind of the middle management, you know, managers who are working on sustainability, on human rights and whatnot and you sort of need to give them the tools to succeed so that your sort of public advocacy doesn't cut them down but you also sort of need to get through and I think to an extent, arguing from facts, arguing with nouns and verbs as opposed to adjectives and adverbs is a way to be able to sort of make your point and have the conversation and not back down from what you're asking for but sort of, you know, be able to make it in a way that the points will get through. Thank you. So the other thing that I noticed from the story that you're telling is that it was a coalition of actors that sort of coordinated almost and with like different registers and ways in which they spoke with the company, can you tell us a little about putting together the right kind of coalition? Yeah, I think you always need more people. I think that a diversity of voices can succeed in ways that are, you know, really sort of, you know, beyond belief. We had an issue that cut across political lines in the United States. Like I said, our legislation was initially supported by, that I think the first bill on conflict minerals was proposed by Sam Brownback who's a very conservative, you know, Christian Senator at the time. And so, you know, we were able to bring together kind of faith-based groups, student groups and, you know, it wasn't about building sort of, like it wasn't about getting everyone across the country to care about this issue, but it was kind of building a kind of working coalition that could sort of reach across and kind of make an influence. I will say that I think it can be a challenge. There's, in the digital rights space and on kind of digital rights issues, I think there's both an advantage and a challenge right now. The advantage is that because people who use technology, technologists and programmers and, you know, system administrators and whatnot, make for a natural coalition who understand the sort of challenges that are coming down the road when it comes to digital rights issues. But communicating those issues out to the wider world can be challenging. And I think we often sort of wind up with, you know, kind of either it's, you know, super libertarians and, you know, super left-wing folks and it's hard to get sometimes the importance of digital rights issues to resonate with that wider group. And I think that's something I want to work on. I think we all can work on. Speaking of, so this is almost like a transition into GNI, which you described a little bit in the beginning, but so my next question is going to be about secrecy and safe spaces which you flagged as you were telling the story. I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about GNI from the point of view of secrecy and safe spaces. Sure, yeah. So Global Network Initiative, GNI, we bring together our members and so there's a set of obligations for companies. There is a assessment process that verifies that companies are meeting those obligations which are really about integrating human rights and freedom of expression and privacy into their business operations and being able to, when they receive a request from the government to take down content or a handover user data, to do everything they can to resist those requests when they're overbroad. And then we provide a space for learning because the issues in the digital rights space, there's something new in the newspaper every single day. So you need to provide a space where the companies can learn together with NGOs and academics and investors. And then we work together on policy change to try to change laws around the world that are inconsistent with international human rights standards. Aspects of GNI are very secret and it's kind of a, it's a feature rather than a bug. The assessment process that looks at whether companies are meeting their commitments under GNI is confidential. It's reviewed by our board of directors including folks like Jamiah and Jess. But the reports themselves are not made public. We do a public report that has a lot of anonymized and aggregated data. The challenge we have is on the one hand, it's hard to sort of demonstrate impact when things are confidential. On the other hand, when you're talking about how a company can do things to keep a government from getting access to their data, you don't want to publicize that too much because then you're giving the government a roadmap to how to get around the things that the company is doing to resist that. So it's a challenge and a tension and we try to find ways to be more transparent about the work that we do while recognizing that confidentiality and safe space is kind of built into it. I've been reading about the GNI and the Buckman Klein Center's role about in setting it up. And so it's been really interesting watching the organization from the inside. I wonder if there's a way in which you can describe to everyone here a couple of ways in which you felt the GNI had impact that are discussable. So I think we have impact in a few different ways. So one sort of GNI has impact when more companies join GNI and sign up and make a public commitment to freedom of expression and privacy. When GNI started in 2008, 10 years ago, the three founding companies were Google, Microsoft and Yahoo. 20 of the founding 22 organizations were headquartered in the United States. So it was the global network initiative in name and aspiration, not in fact. And today we have about 60 members, half of which are from headquartered outside of the United States, including companies, a lot of mobile network operators based in Europe but operating everywhere, academics and NGOs from Latin America, from Africa, from South Asia. Last week we welcomed a new observer company, a line corporation who are a Japanese company that provide a messaging service that's popular in all parts of Asia. So as we grow and more companies kind of make these commitments, those commitments cover a wider set of users of ICT products and services around the world. We can make a difference when we work together on learning and policy. I think there are issues that GNI has helped to sort of put on the agenda, such as the sort of proliferating number of instances of internet shutdowns. We've seen a very vivid example of that and just how difficult those are, but how companies can work together with other groups on that. But ultimately like the rubber hits the road when companies take steps to protect their users by implementing our sort of principles and guidelines and by resisting sort of government demands. And a lot of that is stuff that we'll never get talked about, but I think occasionally it does. And last week I think Brad Smith from Microsoft made some comments and talked about how Microsoft was not providing AI for several kind of applications and not selling to folks, whether it was I think police in the United States in one case or to an actor in an unfree state, according to Freedom House. So that's where the rubber hits the road, but that's often the hardest things to talk about. This is true. GNI has been such an interesting model and such a success in the ways in which you described, but the tech world has also changed since it was set up and since the principles were drafted. And so if you had to think about the challenges for an organization like GNI with all the issues that are emerging, how would you describe them? Well, I think so GNI is focused on freedom of expression and privacy and sort of privacy with regard to government demands for data. It was created to solve the challenges that happened in the mid 2000s as Western technology companies went into places like China and found themselves having to comply with local laws that were inconsistent with international human rights standards. So it was about trying to figure out ways that companies can take down as little information as possible, hand over as little data as possible. Those issues are still very much kind of in the headlines and of great concern, but there's this whole wider set of challenges now. And increasingly I think people are looking at whether it's hate speech, harassment, terrorist content, you name the issue. There's a lot more, well, we want you to take down this content because this content is harmful or may harm someone's rights. But we don't want you to take down this other information because we want you to respect freedom of expression and privacy. That's a really hard challenge. And I think that all of us need to be sort of engaged in figuring out the right thing. I think that the multi-stakeholder kind of model that GNI uses is one tool in the tool belt of ways of working with companies on digital rights, but there are many others from legislation and regulation to kind of all sorts of other ways of sort of organizing and thinking about these things. But I think it's a much harder problem and as technology develops, it's only going to get more and more difficult as you look at things like artificial intelligence. Thank you. So I will not monopolize David. I'm just going to stop here and say that it's been such a privilege speaking with you and getting to watch GNI and learn from the inside. Back to you, Jess. I'm sure everyone else has questions. Yes, I know. There's a lot of that. Different from the Kimberley process. And I ask this because we were sold the same narrative with the Kimberley process and everybody took advantage of it and we're part of scope one. What are the lessons learned from the process to ensure that this actually makes sense? Yeah, it's a very good question. So the Kimberley process was created to address the issue of conflict diamonds in the early 2000s, I think. And that was one of several examples that we sort of looked at when we were starting to figure out how can we address this issue of minerals in eastern Congo. So we looked at things like the Kimberley process. We looked at work around labor rights and labor conditions. We looked at things like the extractive industry transparency initiative. And so in particular with the Kimberley process of which I'm not an expert, I believe that is entirely a governmental organization. So governments are the only ones at the table who are formal members. If I'm not mistaken, I could be mistaken. And it is dedicated to deal with one, the issue of kind of rebel groups or non-state actors dealing in these kinds of resources. And it was, it did not address the issue of say, elements of the army or state security actors dealing with those diamonds. So there were some institutional flaws there. We tried to sort of correct for that in what we were proposing and what we did together with many, many, many other organizations, other NGOs, UN experts, et cetera. And these things are always a work in progress. I was looking yesterday at a recent report from an organization that's been monitoring the situation on the ground. I'm not doing that anymore, but it's a constant work in progress. You have these mechanisms set up to validate minds on the ground in parts of Eastern Congo and you always have people trying to game the system. But the latest that I've seen seems to be that these kinds of responsible sourcing initiatives are making progress, but it's always kind of a two steps forward, one step back situation. I've taken on a couple of different roles. Your role enough was very different from the role that you have on the staff of GNI with the sort of attendant confidential spaces that GNI creates. We have a lot of students in the room who are perhaps thinking about careers in this space. Could you talk a little bit about the dynamics of working in those different roles and the advantages and disadvantages of each and what might have led you to a space like GNI? Sure, yeah. No, when I first started working with companies, I went to a meeting of this industry association when it was meeting in Washington and I got to be the person who comes in from civil society and pounds on the table and says, blood is on your hands. You have to do something about this. And that's, it's fun, but ultimately, there are many different ways to make a difference. And what I found from my work on Congo was while, ultimately, there's only so much you can do to sort of when you're dealing with a leader of a rebel group or army units in Eastern Congo, you don't have the leverage that you have when you're dealing with large companies. And so there's an ability to sort of work with them to try to achieve effects sort of back through the supply chain that was appealing to me and which led me to my role in GNI, which is much more sitting in the middle and being a facilitator and trying to figure out ways for everybody to kind of work together to create solutions. And that can be challenging as well because you don't always, it's both difficult when people ask sort of critical questions about what you're doing, but to be like, no, I'm kind of an arbiter. But I think that for students, there's no shortage of, I wish that kind of business and human rights wasn't a growth industry, because that would mean maybe we're sort of solving some of these problems and often they're just proliferating, but I think there are roles, whether it's within companies for NGOs and within government. I mean, I think that you sort of, the approach of sort of teaming up between civil society and government to sort of work on companies and work in a teaming up civil society and companies to work on government, those kinds of forging those connections and alliances is a way to make a difference. Other questions, yeah. In most of your talk, you were talking about tech companies and coordination of responses among tech companies, but I had some questions about that slide you put up at the very end, because at the top were, you know, Microsoft, Intel, Apple, so on.  I was wondering why, how are these two things related to each other and why were they on the same list? And the other question is, if Costco is a company that's doing really badly, they pride themselves on being socially responsible and it seems like they ought to be approachable on this. Yeah, so those companies are on that list because that 2017 ranking was looking at the jewelry industry as well as electronics and Costco and Walmart and folks like that are actually the biggest, some of the biggest jewelers in the United States. And it's, but it's a really good question because we sort of went at the tech companies and the electronics companies, but you know, these products are used in, these minerals and metals are used in everything. And it was very interesting when we were pushing for this legislation because we had sort of spent a year and a half engaging with the tech companies. Many of them were sort of supportive, more or less of a legislative approach that we need kind of common rules for everyone. And so we found a way to work together on legislation. Then when the bill was kind of moving forward when it got rolled into the Dodd-Frank Act, the rest of industry sort of woke up. And so the National Association of Manufacturers and the Chamber of Commerce and all of these folks were like, whoa, we gotta stop this. And they have been the most prominent kind of groups calling for both to first stop the legislation, then stop the rulemaking process, then lawsuits and have continued to fight it. But the companies that sort of were involved from the beginning and were most kind of had taken the heat were ones who then saw a positive aspect to it. And interestingly, in the past few years, I'm not sure where it stands right now, but efforts by the Trump administration to either defund or get rid of the legislation have been opposed, including by technology companies like Apple who've actually engaged with the government to say, no, we need this. I'm sure that my former colleagues from the NF Project have been in touch with them, but I will find out. Thank you. One thing that struck me about the tale you retold is that there was no, as kind of a complete outsider to this work, no mention of a bottom line. So is that something that people actually don't care about? Steve Jobs is much more concerned with his attention or are these just veiled ways of talking about the bottom line? So very good question. And it was one, I think early on, there was kind of assumption that there's no way that it would be too expensive for companies to really kind of do this kind of supply chain tracing and audibility. And the more we looked into it, apparently, that was not so much the case. And it actually was only a couple of pennies per product or something like that that would have taken it. But I do think that the push from the bottom line, which is what has led to global supply chains being what they are with sort of things being produced as fast and as cheaply as possible, sort of led to this situation in the first place. And I think sort of awareness, once you, I think oftentimes the solutions to these things may actually be less expensive than people think they are, but it's what is expensive in terms of social cost is sort of get everything as fast and as cheap as possible. Thank you. Get around to it, Iran. Then I have another question for you. Thank you for the presentation and the guidelines that you offered. So given the intricacies of issues like hate speech and the significance of the contextual problems and the history, can you talk a little bit about what mechanisms are in place in GNI to make sure that you understand all the dimensions of the problems and how you interact with local groups? So that's a very good question. And so we are kind of expertise and insight into these issues comes via our members and in particular the human rights organizations and academics who are working on them. And it is uneven because the level of expertise on all of the different local situations around the world comes up to our organization unevenly. We are, I think one of our highest priorities right now is to like fully globalize the global network initiative and to make sure that we have members, both companies and non-company members from all over the world. And that is, we're making progress but we still have a long way to go in that regard. We are out there sort of trying to meet with people and sort of learn and listen and hear. My colleague, Nikki, who was previously at the Berkman Klein Center, was in Lagos today doing a roundtable with companies and civil society organizations. We're gonna be at Wright's Con in Tunisia in a few months. So we try to get out there and hear from people. One challenge we have that we're working on so multi-stakeholder initiatives like GNI, according to the UN guiding principles on business human rights and just good practice, need to have kind of public engagement mechanisms and grievance mechanisms so that if someone feels like they have been wrongly impacted or have something to say to us that they can get through to us. That's a harder problem to solve in the sort of digital space than it is offline where if you look at a mining community, well, there's the affected communities, the people who live around that mine and you can go and talk to them. And creating those channels when you're talking about a company with billions of users is a problem that we're trying to solve and where we could use help. So my follow-up to Erin's great question is what observations do you have? And I'm interested in David's answer to this question but also Chinmai's answer to this question representing first CCG at GNI. And now as an independent academic, as GNI has begun to globalize, how has that changed the organization? Well, it's been incredibly valuable. We now have academic and NGO members from Chile and Argentina and Nigeria and Uganda and India and South Korea. We need to evolve so GNI, when it started, the organization was the founders who were the board of directors, who were a largely American group of people who'd been meeting in conference rooms in the West over a couple of years and had become to be very good friends and had sort of developed trust among them that allowed them to tackle really difficult topics and difficult conversations. Bringing people, other people into that is essential because it's kind of myopic to think that those people can sort of do it on their own. So we've been trying to bring groups from the rest of the world into GNI. That can be a challenge, it can be a challenge for just logistical purposes. You're trying to schedule calls at a time zone that works for everyone. Doesn't work very well and so people who are calling in from Delhi are at a disadvantage and there's sort of ways that we kind of work together and interact and communicate that need to be sort of updated to be sort of more inclusive and reflect diverse voices. And so those are the things that we're thinking about right now but I'm curious to get your perspective, Chinlay. It's been super interesting for me because we joined GNI I think in 2013 or 2014 with Berkman's support actually. And initially it was great, it was well worth getting on a call at 1 a.m. because we would, it would be one hour's like deep dive into an issue that I didn't even know was an issue and then I'd know all about it by the time everyone in India woke up to the fact that this is a thing. And so it was fantastic as we were leading into this, as we were sort of getting into the space, the learning and development but then as David described, there's also a board and GNI has been diversifying its board and that's been great too because over time that means that you build relationships because you have to with people from everywhere. We've been supported quite a lot by all the board members. It's been great to have friends like Jess on the board with us. And so I imagine that like most things it takes time before the relationships form again but I can see them happening and I can see everyone working towards them happening. So it's been good. I think from our point of view, so sometimes the way in which a human rights issue can impact a global South country can be completely different from the way in which it works here. And if you speak with activists or with academics from the global South, our take on what needs to be done can be completely different. And I'm not saying right, I'm just saying different. And so it's been great because we have this conversation and we start to understand what the challenges of working at it from the North or from within a company are and they start to understand why it is that we're so agitated about the issue. And I think that the common ground is definitely a better common ground than when we're not talking. We have time for one more question, Hilary. Oh, we'll do two. We'll give Hilary and Cibela. Thanks so much for your talk. I'm curious as we're seeing a lot of internal organizing at tech companies right now, how you see that there should be connections or maybe shouldn't be connections or when it makes sense to work with organizers internally. Yeah. I have a similar question to what Hilary said and what this Irene said. You had mentioned that when it comes to the conflict minerals it was, you initially thought it would be an expensive process but it was actually cheaper than you thought. And I think I've heard some of the feedback from companies like Facebook that to hire people to monitor content or to create AI to filter through the hate speech is very expensive. So do you have any ideas on how you can sort of deal with that argument or somehow lower the cost through technology or some other means? So both great questions. I think in terms of the activism among tech, the activism among tech workers is really kind of inspiring and encouraging thing. I think that for folks inside a company they can use the sort of external commitments that a company has made to hold their company to those points and so that can be a tool. It may not always make sense to sort of work together but I think things can still sort of push in the same direction. And I think when it comes to the costs I think companies can afford a lot of these things. And I think that it takes particularly the sort of technical experts from outside of companies whether it's academia and elsewhere to be able to argue these things based on their own expertise and to push back and to make sure that you understand that what the real challenges are. And those may be difficult and they may take resources. I'm personally a little skeptical of AI's ability to solve things that depend so much on context as hate speech and things like that. I think that needs people and a lot more people but I think that making that case is something that we all have to do. Thank you so much, David and thank you Chin Mai for your role as a discussant and thank you all for being here with us today. I'm sure David will stick around for a little bit if you have one-on-one questions but join me in thanking our speaker. Thank you.