Okay, let's go ahead and get started with the meeting. I'm not seeing a bunch of new attendees joining anymore so hopefully this is the, this is, we've got everybody that should be attending. I'm Jen Santos, deputy director for parks, and I would like to introduce a few more folks. We have Travis birding joining us, as well as we have our virtual meeting hosts. Emily Andrew and Mary Lou Nichols, and they will be helping us facilitate the meeting, helping during question and answer periods, and otherwise be running the meeting behind the scenes. I just wanted to thank you all so much for being here. I know we all have very busy schedules and I really appreciate you all being able to attend this really important meeting during COVID. And this is the best way we can meet and I'm super excited to see the amount of attendees we have here. I wanted to ask for your patience as we move this virtual meeting and this is the first community virtual meeting will be hosting as a team here so bear with us as we go forward. When we get to our question and answer period later there if, if you do have questions and answers. There will be just a few moments there where there's a transition where it may appear that you're losing connection but you're not stay tuned you'll be is just switching you so that you can be able to speak so with that I'm going to go ahead and read some of the basic things to get us started in the meeting. So the public joining this meeting will have their microphones muted. If you're phoning in to join the meeting and you choose to speak during the question and answer period and public input portion of the meeting for privacy concerns the host will rename you to caller and only show the last four digits of your phone number. Additionally the city of Santa Rosa is committed to providing a safe and inclusive environment, free from disruption and will not tolerate hateful speech or actions. Everyone is expected to participate participate respectfully or if necessary the meeting will end immediately. Madam host will you please explain how the public comments will be heard at today's meeting. Yes madam facilitator at the end of the presentation the facilitator will open the floor for questions and answers and public comments. The host will lower all hands until the public comments item is open. Once the facilitator has called for public comment, the facilitator will ask the public to raise their hand if they wish to speak those joining by phone may dial star nine to raise your hand. Then call in those who have raised their hands. The host will unmute your microphone for your comment and then we'll meet you once you are finished speaking. A courtesy timer will appear while you ask your question or make your comment. The panel will respond to each question or comment as it is raised. You will need to raise your hand again if the follow up question is generated based upon the responses received. You will have the opportunity to ask questions throughout the presentation by clicking the Q&A feature in your zoom toolbar and typing in your question. The host will keep an eye on these questions and will answer them in writing as time allows will ask the presenters to answer them live at intervals throughout the presentation. Any questions not answered during the presentation will be addressed during the questions and public comment periods during the presentation. We will now move back to Jen to begin the presentation. Thank you madam host. So let's go ahead and start the presentation. We are here to talk about Creekside renaming. And I mentioned Travis birding earlier he is one of our panelists here tonight as he has requested that Creekside open space park name be changed to marry him to first open space park. So over just obviously our welcome and meeting overview, the renaming proposal itself, a bit of a park system overview to talk about the open space. We'll talk specifically about what is Creekside open space, and we will also go over a bit of the policy and procedure. There are several community polls which is a really exciting feature. It allows us to look at your responses live together. So I'm looking forward to that. Next slide please. So we'll go over a little bit of the history here in early 2018 Travis birding brought forth a request to rename Creekside open space to marry him traversal park. Mr birding presented his request to the board of community services and provided a letter of support for his request in 2018. The board of community services discuss Mr birding's request. The next month and asked staff to explore multiple multiple scenarios of how to proceed with this request. Staff had planned to return back to the board of community services but we had fire season upon us we also had the paradise fire smoke if some of you may recall. We also had some key staff members that were working on this project retire. We had a little bit of disruption there and we got back on board when we had some new staff in 2019 and reported back to the board of community services regarding our findings for this request. And one of the things that was asked by the board of community services is to seek community input. And so that's why we're here tonight to reseek your input on the request to change the name. Next slide please. So I am going to introduce you to Mr birding. He's the requester requesting that this open space park be renamed to marry him traversal and he'll give you some of the background about why he's asking for this request. Mr birding. Hi Jen, thank you. And thank you everyone. My name is Travis birding. Mary was my mother-in-law and my lovely wife was as the daughter of Mary. She's here for support. Also run my back so I want to first and foremost, I want to thank a few people in a few groups. I want to first thank the board of community service for taking on this renaming and proceeding forward with it and get us to where we are today and putting together this meeting. So thank you so much for putting that together and and and so forth. And the next person I'd like to thank is Amy Grant. She's the one that helped me get started with this process. She is now retired so she helped me get from plan A to plan B. Also got me in front of the board to get this going. And then Emily who is who is on here too. I want to thank you for picking up where Lisa left off and getting us close to the finish line so thank you for that. And lastly, I want to thank everyone on this call. Almost 30 some people on here from, you know, from local, all the way from Florida, Mary's brother, Arkansas, Arizona, and I can and see la too. So, thank you for your support for joining for being here. It really shows what Mary was and what this what this renaming means to everybody and the community so thank you. Like it was mentioned in the previous slide, two and a half years ago, I presented this renaming to the board in in honoring Mary. Mary started up this program. Well, about 15 years ago, and a group of neighbors, all decided to get within the community to help clean the parks the mediums everywhere. That's what we see within this community. And which started Bennett Valley vision. Pat my who might be on this call, also was one of those people that helped out create this group this group has been around for about 15 years they still go today. She, Mary was one of the co founders and the leaders of this group that would help, you know, clean up the parks creek side park is one of them. And I think they go out there every every month or so clean it up. Mo the grad, Mo the lawn. I remember Bill, Mary's husband, Alexis's dad, driving the John deer, three, three blocks down just to to mow the high grass the high grass is probably the size of the kitchen table mom but still the dedication that they had for this project for this park for everyone around meant a lot for everybody. And when Mary passed about four and a half years ago. The goal was to get this park renamed because it was close to the house. And this is a park that she near and dear held her heart in fact in its slide you'll later see is some bird bird houses that Mary really truly loved. So you'll see that I hope it's still on that slide so I hope you guys didn't change anything but what Mary, but what Mary did was bring a group together bring a community together and a neighbors to and in this bennett valley vision has done a lot for it. What this park means is yes it's it is to honor Mary, but it's also to recognize this group and the volunteers that still are there today and still working hard. So I want to, you know, it's part of a group efforts and but Mary meant a lot to all of us as you can see, and it still goes on today so this is the big reason why we are here today. You know, I appreciate it. I thank you we're getting close and I'm looking forward to getting this passed and you know ultimately thank you so much and yeah that's that's all I have so thank you. Thank you Mr birding I really appreciate that synopsis. Let's go and continue on with our presentation next slide please. So for this for this slide we wanted to kind of give you a perspective aerial graphic map of the entire city. And the yellow the yellow lines you see on there is vertically highway 101 and mostly horizontally highway 12. The green that you're seeing on there is all city of Santa Rosa parks. And it's broken into quadrants the northwest southwest northeast southeast and of course our open space park located in the southeast with the star. So the next slide to talk about is the pink that you see around here the boxes that is the city boundary just for perspective. So next slide please. And so for here we wanted to show you a further distinction of the quadrants. We have a question for you later on in the poll so we're hoping you can this will help you understand that are pick out where you live here in this in the city, and hopefully to tell us and don't worry if you don't live in the city there's an option for that as well. But if you look this is how the city has, you know organized itself to look at how we distribute funds and attention and things like that for the park system overall so quadrant one is in the northwest. And if you live there you're going to be living east of highway 101 and north of highway 12 a place to play northwest community park those things are in quadrant one quadrant two is in the southwest southwest quadrant and we have rosin creek community park down there bear park just as reminders and that is hope I'm saying all this right south of highway 12 and and oh sorry west I think I said highway one was east but everything one and two is all west of highway 101. I'm sorry I'm taking a little bit of time here just to make sure you can help identify where you live in the quadrant three is of course the northeast and that would be east of 101 and north of highway 12. So we're in con valley community park up there. And quadrant four is near our open space park, and that is south of highway 12 and east of highway 101, and we've got galvin park been a valley community or been a valley golf course excuse me. So take note of where you have what quadrant you think you live in that will be important for us to understand where we're collecting information from. And so let's go ahead we're going to do the go into the polling, and we wanted to have an easy poll for you and ask some basic questions so we could all get used to how it works so I'm going to turn it back over to our host to explain how the polling will work and then we'll walk through the questions together. Thank you madam facilitator. All the poll questions are single or multiple choice. You must answer all questions in order to submit your responses. The submit button is at the very end of the poll, and you may need to scroll down to the bottom of your screen to find it. If you are completing the poll on your smartphone, you must answer the first question before you can answer the second question, etc. If you are participating in the meeting via a landline, you will not be able to participate in the poll at this time. However, the poll will be available via the Creekside project website for two weeks after the meeting. So please check the website on Monday to complete the survey. Once everyone has completed the poll, and it has been closed, the results will appear immediately, and the facilitator will walk through the results. I'm going to launch the first poll. Thank you madam host so hopefully that gives you enough information to get started with the polling. Obviously, where do you live there's that quadrant question with some information to help you your age. And I think we've got some how often you visit and we really would love to hear from you how you heard about tonight's meeting so that we can make sure we're understanding where all that's coming from. So I like go through that there so Northwest Quadrant, North of Highway 12 and West of 101. Northeast Quadrant, North of Highway 12 and East of Highway 101. I'm going to give a little bit more time for voting madam host how is it looking are we getting close to completion. 23 of 31 participants have submitted. Thank you. Okay, we'll give it another minute and then we'll look at the results. Okay, we stabilize at 26 but we just got 27. Okay, we've got ready. Yes, we have 20 21. Okay, so I'll go ahead and end the polling. And then you'll see the results. Okay, so hopefully everyone can see the results. Where are we living. We've got 10 of us in the Southeast Quadrant and some outside a mix of age groups and a mix of folks visiting, which is great, at least once a month is nice to see and how did you hear about this word of mouth and signs and social media well thank you so much I really appreciate your participation in this and hopefully that gives you a sense of how it's working and easy and easy polls so we'll keep going with our presentation. So here we just wanted to talk about what it means to be an open space park in relation to the other types of park we have in the city. We did a good example there a community park and example is Finley community park as well as a place to play. Those are just examples of community park galvan park is in the Southeast Quadrant so examples there are very large park lots of activities and neighborhood park is a little bit smaller. We have different special use recreation centers and we have 13 open space parks, including Creek side and open spaces are not entirely limited to just being in independent park systems they can also be part of a larger park system. So if you can look at that we have 100 we have 1032 acres all over in the park. Next slide please. Let me see a little bit better. Look at what an open space is it's really a very passive area. It's minimal improvements with benches, maybe a picnic table trash cans trails. It's it's really just a visual or conservation type of area left to be in a natural state. And we have a couple examples for us that are visual like myself. Here's Creek side open spaces reminder. Next slide please. Another example of an open space Parker Hill open space very rural. Next slide please. And Thomas like Harris open space also again pretty rule with a pathway running through it. Next slide. A little bit closer view of the aerial of Creek side open space 3.63 acres adjacent to Matanzas Creek running on one side of it. It's a long Creek side road where it gets its name from. And it was dedicated to the city for public use in on February 17 1967. And it was dedicated to the city for public use in on February 17 1967. And the Creek side open space is the Creek side open space is a general plan designation. Next slide please. And so just here's a here's another way of looking at the park. This is talking about the types of amenities that are in the park. There's three benches trash cans. And the other one is the the developer areas are the places where we have picnic tables and walking areas is about one acre. And then we've got Matanzas Creek in the red. And we wanted to point out that in the slide on the far right lower, there's a star. So we can see how close Miss Traversos. Was there. Was there. Next slide please. And thank you to Mr. Birding. He did a fantastic job of talking about Bennett Valley vision. The city operates a wonderful volunteer program. And Bennett Valley vision, which is a little bit hard to see in the sign. It's faded needs to be updated. But then Bennett Valley vision of which Miss Traversos. Was a founding member and they along like other, other volunteer groups in the city have provided tremendous amount of volunteerism, cleaning weeds, mowing, making special places like this for wildlife. Twice a year, the group gets together to, to essentially mow the grass, remove blackberries and add new mulch, pick up litter and maintain the bird boxes, which were donated and installed by the group. There's a lot of volunteerism that happens at this park. And so we are going to roll into our next community poll. Just to get a sense of your understanding of Creek side park should be a very easy hauling. Madam host, will you facilitate the polling and remind the folks how to participate? Madam facilitator, I'm going to go over the instructions again. I will for the following two polls as well. You can all poll questions are going to be single or multiple choice. You must answer all the questions in order to submit your responses. If you're completing a poll on your smartphone, you must answer the first question before you can answer the second question. If you are participating in the meeting via a landline, you will not be able to participate in the poll at this time. If you are participating in the meeting via landline, you will not be able to participate in the poll at this time. Once everyone has completed the poll and it has been closed, the results will appear immediately. And the facilitator will walk you through the results. Thank you, Madam host. All right. Let's look at, let's look at the polling. So again, a very easy poll. Are you familiar with Creek side open space? And have you visited how often. And have you heard about Bennett Valley vision? And if you have, have you been lucky enough to participate with Bennett Valley vision? So we've got, we've got time. So please take your time and fill that out. We have 30 or 32 people reporting. And that number seems stable. So great. Thank you. Let's go ahead and look at the results. Okay. Wonderful. So lots of folks familiar. That's good since you're attending. And lots of visitors and a variety of times for visiting. And I'm glad to see the knowledge of Bennett Valley vision and. Less participation, but now that you know, hopefully we can look to some extra volunteers out there. So thanks again for participating. And let's go ahead and move on with the remainder of the presentation. And so what we would like to do in this next section is look at the current council policy in relation to the request. This policy is a small policy. And was recently updated in the year 2000. So it's been a while. Next slide, please. So just basic going over the objectives and the policy. It is a very small policy. And then the objectives for renaming are to the, that the name enhances the city's value and heritage. And it's compatible with community interest. That it's easy to identify a park by geographic location or function. And of course, to encourage land and monetary donations and provide recognition. And just a reminder that Creek side currently is named on that middle is meeting, but it's not. It's not. It's meeting that middle objective. By geographic location. Next slide, please. And so here's just some, some, some of the basics of the policy. Parks are to be essentially named immediately. They cannot be named after a living person. And parks are allowed to be named in honor of a deceased person who has made major contributions to community, country, or field of recreation parks. And so, the historical names can be used and themes may be considered if the facility bears the name of the theme. And generally, memorials are not permitted for this policy. Next slide, please. So when we compare the request, one of the procedures is to look at if the request meets either one of these two objectives. The first is a park or recreation facility name may be changed if the following conditions are met. There's an occurrence of national or local significance. There's a waiting period of no less than two years between the event and the actual naming of the park. Or if the name becomes appropriate in inappropriate. And for, and for us, we're really looking at option a tonight since the name is still appropriate for Creek side. Next slide, please. So we are looking at option a, as I mentioned, occurrence of national or local. Significance. We've heard from Mr. Burding. And so we want to look at what we've been able to collect here from. From him and his family as well as things that staff have been able to recognize. The Bennett Valley vision, according to their site, is an all volunteer group focusing on making Bennett Valley and even nicer place to live. Founded in 2005. They have adopted Creek side park, you loop a sidewalk, summer field islands and sidewalk areas, a Royal Sierra Creek, Bethards and Bethards road to keep. Clean and maintain. They hold two annual cleaning cleanup days, as I mentioned previously in 2007, Bennett Valley vision received the city of Santa Rosa merit award for neighborhood enrichment. And since 1978, the Santa Rosa city council has presented merit award to individuals, organizations and businesses who volunteer their time and energies to serve the community, improve the quality of life in Santa Rosa. Beyond Bennett Valley's vision by annual workday, Mary and bill traversal mode, annual grass, remove blackberries and maintain bird boxes. And as we mentioned, they lived a few parcels down. Mary's also known for her, for the family market, a small business that was part of the community for 80 years from 1932 to 2012. And as you saw when Mr. Burring was giving us a presentation, there is a bench located at the open space with a donation in her name, with a donation plaque in her name. Next slide, please. So in simple terms, staff find, find that Mary and traversal was active in the community. She inspired volunteerism. She is well loved by her family and known in the community for traversals market. The questions that we're going to talk about in the next poll. Are related to looking at the policy in relation to this does the civic contributions of Mary and traversal qualify for an event of national local significance. Obviously the, it has been two years since the event for the naming, renaming to Mary and traversal open space. Prior to going into the poll to ask you specifically, questions about your, your preferences for changing the name. We wanted to be able to open it up for question and answers at this point. So that if there's something pending before we get to hearing from your, from your opinions, we can at least answer some of those questions. So, Madam host, will you please facilitate question and answer in public input? All right. Raise your hands if that's good. If you're joined by phone, you'll need to dial star nine to raise your hand. Host nickels will then call on those who have raised their hands. Those nickels will unmute your microphone through your comment, and then we'll meet you once you have finished speaking. A courtesy timer will appear while you ask your question or make your comment. The facilitator presenter or host will respond to each question or comment as it is raised. You will need to raise your hand. Again, if a follow up question is generated based upon the response you received. I am going to give me just a moment. I have to get the courtesy timer up. And get the slideshow down. Okay. The timer is up. Host nickels. Can you call on. The first. First question. Actually, I think my permissions need to be enabled. I'm not able to lower hands at this point. Okay. Very good. We have three hands up currently. We'll start with Susan. Susan, I've enabled your speaking permissions. Please unmute your microphone. I'll lower your hand and you may provide your comment or question. Are you able to see the courtesy timer? Yes, we did. Thank you. We don't see it now. But anyway, that's okay. Oh, now we see it. Yes. Okay. So my husband has a question. Hi, this is Gerald. We live just a few doors down from Creek side and love it. Very much. My question is simply, is there any. Further development intended or envisioned for this park. Other than the plaque and the bench and maybe a picnic table. Anything else you'd like to add? Any additional improvements to the park? And the city itself. Anything else? The public restrooms or anything like that, that would change the park. Thank you for that question. I can, I can respond to that right now. And let you know that we have not received any requests for additional improvements at the park and. And the city itself does not have any plans to provide any And also being that it's an open space, it would lend itself and we typically are looking at a very reduced amount of improvements in there. So maybe a picnic table, but right now there's no, there's no plans for any additional improvements. Okay, thank you. Thank you. And now we will hear from Steve. Steve, I've enabled your speaking permissions. Please. Thank you very much. I'm Steve Sharp live on Creek side, great next to Bill and Mary for the last 20 years. And participant in Ben and Ellie vision, I think this is a great honor to Mary.  So I think it's a wonderful thing. My question is what would be the name of the park is it Mary traversal park or is it Mary produced traversal open space park. Thank you. That's a great question. It would be Mary and traversal open space park. So that would be the new name of it. Great. I don't have any other comments or questions. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Now we'll go to Patty. Patty, I've enabled your speaking permissions, please unmute your microphone. Are you able to see the timer. Yes, I am. Thank you. Please ask your question. I don't have a question. I just have a public comment if I may. I've known Mary for 33 years. She was a very dear friend of mine. When we met our daughters, Alexis and Megan were in preschool together and Bennett Valley. So I used to live near Mary. I was very familiar with the open space because I had two dear friends who lived within three houses of this open space. Mary loved family community and the outdoors. And being a dear friend of mine for 33 years, we sure did our share of walking and hiking in the outdoors. And Mary never ceased to amaze me about her active role in preserving and conserving the beauty and the flowers and, and the open space, as we all know. She was a very altruistic but humble person. She was a lovely person. And I have a little bit of a anecdote to share about her while she was working there in the median it was one of the medians I think it was at the Bethards median. And she was working with a project manager from the city of Santa Rosa, who happens to be a good friend of mine.  And I said what's she up to now. And he says well I just want you to know she is a real firecracker. She is super determined to get this and that and this and that and she doesn't hesitate to call me at the city, and asked me to show up with with men, or posts or whatever that she needs. And he said I really appreciate her doing all this and she's really keeping me on my toes. And I thought that was a very genuine testament to Mary's passion of volunteerism and getting the job done. So I really, I really commend Travis spurting for submitting this proposal and I really, I really supported. And thank you very much for doing this I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks so much for sharing your, your comment. Do we have any other questions or comments. Yes, we have one more speaker Geraldine Geraldine. I've enabled your speaking permissions, please unmute your microphone. And are you able to see the timer. Yes. Thank you you may ask your question or provide your comment now. Okay, mine is a comment. I moved across the street from the area for 45 years. And our son was the first person to work on improving the park. It was quite an event to get to get it to be a park. It took many years to get the city to take it from the contractor as an unbuildable lot, or three unbuildable lots. So anyway, he as an eagle project did the first improvement, but then it was not well kept up by the city. So, Mary what and Pat were the guiding forces that for the development of the Bennett Valley vision, and my husband and I have participated in almost every one of the Bennett Valley work days. It's been a very vision work days since it started. And Mary was always there. And even when she was not well she came out and helped us a bit. And I really think it's a good choice to name it for her. It's a good initial part, but other than that. I believe it's a good. A good idea to do this. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your comment I appreciate that. Are there any other questions or comments that you see. I see no additional hands at this time. Okay, and I know that there was a written question. Do you ever renamed any other parks before, or is this the first time. And so at this city, we have renamed other parks. The ones that are coming to mind offhand we, we have Dutch floor park which is in the Northeast quadrant it's a neighborhood park named after a police officer. And it was originally named sunburst park. So in the time that the staff you see here before you. None of us have been involved in the name changing process we've been involved in naming parks but this is the first one for the staff you see here before you, but certainly not the first one at the city. So I think that's a good idea that helps answer some of those questions. I appreciate all of that input and your questions and we're going to go ahead and start the next polling about your direct input about the, about the renaming so we'll walk through that Madam host can you discuss how to participate in the polling again. Yes, thank you. And all poll questions are single and multiple choice. It's a multiple choice it will indicate that in parentheses. If you are completing the poll on your smartphone, you must answer the first question before you can answer the second question. You must answer all questions in order to submit your responses. If you are participating in the meeting by a landline, you will not be able to participate in the poll at this time. However, the poll will be available via the project website for two weeks after the meeting. Check out the website after Monday, Monday the night to do so. Once everyone has completed the poll and it has been closed the results will appear immediately and the facilitator will walk through the results. Okay, thank you so much madam host so question one. Everything that you see in parentheses with these questions is something we've pulled directly from the policy to help guide us with some of your answers so are the contributions and occurrence of, or event of national local significance and to does the name changing enhance the city's values and heritage and three is the name change compatible with the community interest. And of course, for are you in favor of changing the name. Give that a minute or two. We'll give you time we have time there's no rush but take a look and see how many folks have participated in just a minute. Madam host how is the polling going or how much do we need a little bit more time. We're at 25 of 31. Thank you so much we'll wait another minute or so and check back. We're at 25. All right. Thank you so much let's look at the results. Okay so for question one. Yes, for the name, the civic contributions being an occurrence of national or local significance. And for question to another 84% for the name changing enhancing the city's values and heritage. Question number three is the name change compatible with community interest 92% and 92% are in favor of changing the creek side open space park name to marry introvert so in space. Thank you so much for participating in the poll and providing your input. And a little bit more to go. We also wanted to. I'll say sneak in some questions for you about the policy in general. Go back to the presentation so the things we discovered as the staff are looking through the policy is that it is in need. We are searching for some updates to this policy to help guide staff and provide a little bit more guidance for citizens as well as council and board members as we look at the policy. I recognize that after this request came in that we should hold and not accept any more renaming requests or not move forward with any more renaming requests until we can get some feedback from the community about the policy itself. The city we staff will be launching a much larger community wide meetings and collecting feedback from the community about the policy and how we can make sure that it's serving the interest of the community and giving us some additional guidance that we would like to have and I know that looking at it from a citizen's point of view as well it's a little bit vague and can use some updating. So with that we wanted to ask you some questions and next slide please. And so you know one of the things that we talked to what we're looking at with the current policy and brought us to some of these questions. What are the basic requirements for requesting a park name what should be submitted to the city what sort of information should be part of that submittal. How frequently can a park's name be changed for instance, it looks like we're going to go ahead and move forward with this name change. So just from now somebody else could request a different name for the park so we want to know from the community is that acceptable, or should we be looking at holding on on name changes for a while. Also, in some of our parks in this park in particular, there is no signage but in other parks or we have signage. So just looking at the signage and bring it up to current codes is really costly at a minimum it's $20,000 per sign to bring it up to current codes. So I think it can get pricey. And so we asked the question who should bear the cost associated with that. And we also asked the question how much community support do we need to rename a park how much should it be should it be 50% 80% 20% So we're really looking for some more information here. A question came up about how our individual organization or businesses service contributions measured. So that it's a little less subjective and a little bit more directive to staff and to citizens using it and how we should be looking at some metals coming towards us. So how would we measure an event of local or national significance. Is it just community polling, or is there something else that we should be looking at. We also asked the question, can a park be named after a for profit business or a nonprofit business so we're looking at all these things and recognize that the policy could could use an update. We also did research on other agencies throughout the state that have naming policies and there's there's a lot more information in them, obviously, staff and those agencies have discovered something similar that they'd like more guidance. And so I hope you can bear with us we have just one more small poll, where we want to ask you some questions about what you think this policy policy should should be about. And then we'll wrap it up. So with that, I'm hoping that we can ask our host to conduct the next poll, please. Okay, last time for my spiel about how to take the poll. All questions are single or multiple choice. And there's a lot of multiple choice questions on this poll. So, in parentheses at the end of each question it tells you it's going to be a multiple choice. It's going to be as many choices as you need, or would like, you must answer all the questions in order to submit your responses. The submit button is at the bottom of your screen. If you are completing the poll on your smartphone, you must answer the first question before you can answer the second question. If you're participating in the meeting by a landline, you will not be able to participate in the poll at this time that you can visit the website and you will be able to participate in the poll starting Monday. Once everyone has completed the poll, and it has been closed, the results will appear immediately and general walk you through the responses. With that, I am going to launch the last poll. Thank you Madam host so again, and as Emily mentioned, there are quite a few multiple choice. I'm thanking you in advance for rolling through this. These questions and I'm going to try not to speak during this so you can read them and participate. And thank you for that. I appreciate it. Madam host how is the polling going. Okay, great. Give that several more minutes. Thank you so much. Checking in with the host. How are we doing on polling. Pretty stable at 2229. Okay, okay. Let's go ahead and look at those results. Okay, thank you so much. So what do you think Santa Rosa's Park should be named after. There were a lot of requests for outstanding individuals, as well as history. Next one should the community be involved in the naming and renaming of parks. Awesome 100%. Number three, should an individual group organization significant service contributions to city country, or the field of recreation and parks be measured. And it looks like we've got 59 type of service is leading that poll. And it looks like it's too far behind with the number of hours of service, as well as looks pretty close to the, how well known the individual is and number of community members impacted. And number four, under the current park naming policy procedure next week someone could rename Creekside open space to something different. And that would be in favor of a park naming policy that would never allow park name changes, unless the name becomes inappropriate was the preferred response there followed not too far behind by a name change after five years. And then number five should parks which have been named in honor of individuals be renamed. And it looks like there was a majority of folks with the answer no. The parks named after people be renamed if the individuals character no longer represents the best interest of the city of Santa Rosa. There was 59% yes, and should a park monument sign be installed as part of the renaming process split down the middle there right exactly 50%. So how should the cost to the change the change in the name of the park be funded. Not. Okay, so let's see we had funds raised by the Santa Rosa Parks Foundation and requesting party was the primary source. And that question. And let's see for number nine or last question what percent of the community should support the naming or renaming of a park and it looks like we're looking at more than 75% being the highest choice. Next is 25 to 50% with just a little bit less looking at 50 to 75%. So really, really appreciate your participation in the poll and providing us feedback as I mentioned before we will be going out with a larger, a larger request to receive similar information citywide and we appreciate you being part of this to get us started in answering some of those questions so we can update the policy. So with that, we thought we'd roll into a question and answer period so that if there was any other questions that came up before we finalize the meeting, we could try to answer those here for you. So first will you facilitate the question and answer period please will repeat the instructions I shared earlier in case anyone new was joined or comment before and you want to comment now. Please raise your hands now if you wish to speak those joining by phone may dial star nine to raise your hand post nipples will then call on those who have raised their hands. I'll give you a microphone for your comment and then we'll meet you once you are finished speaking a courtesy timer will appear while you ask your question or make your comment. The facilitator presenter or host will respond to each question or comment as it is raised. You will need to raise your hand again if a follow up question is generated based upon the response you receive. I see no hands raised at this time does anyone have a question or comment they'd like to put forth. I see no hands at this time. There is one question that was raised. In the question answer feature. Will there be an open space sign. With the name. If the name is changed will there be a sign installed. Thank you so much for that and we can answer that now. All of our open space parks. Do not none of them have signs or monument signs in them. Current monument signs do require electricity and a variety of other updates and are fairly rare. And it would set a new precedent if we did want to put a new sign in here. But at this time there are. No intentions to move forward with signing the park. Rather just what will happen is all of our. Public outreach and media or website and things like that. All of those places where the park is shown will be changed and updated. It will take some time to get there. We will still have our old media, especially the paper media out there for a while, but that will be changed as soon as those opportunities come up. So I hope that answers those questions. And is meanwhile, were there any additional questions and answers from anybody? Madam host. Does anyone have any other questions or comments. At this time. I see no hands raised at this time. Thank you. Let's go ahead and continue on with the presentation and we're going to wrap things up. Thank you. Thank you, Madam host. So just looking at our next steps here. For those neighbors or community members who weren't able to participate in the polling tonight. It is going to be available at the city of Santa Rosa's project website. That's the recreation parks website, but you can see the web address there. So it's srcity.org slash park dash projects. And you will see the Creekside project up there. And you can use that to connect to the poll. If you need to. If you have neighbors or community members that still need to take the poll. Give us a few, give us a few days to get that up there. We want to make sure that that's ready to go for you. So it should be sometime on Monday that you can look for that. In addition, so after we've collected all of the information from the, from the meeting tonight, as well as any additional polls. That we might receive over the next couple of weeks. We will be taking those and sharing those and presenting that information to the board of community services meeting, which is scheduled for December 9th. At 4pm. And it's also a virtual public meeting. And there is also a web address where you can check the agenda. Like many community or review authority board meetings, sometimes things agendas change. But the attention of the intention is to. To bring this before the board of community services, which is a council appointed advisory board. For a recommendation to approve the council. And once we visited the board of community services and receive their feedback, we'll be moving forward to city council with an approval to change the name from Creekside open space to Mary M. Traversa open space. And as I mentioned before, I would like to update the city's media locations where the park. Where you can see the park name or where it was listed. Let's see. I just want to check my notes to make sure I'm talking about everything here. And let's go to the next slide. I just want to thank everybody for participating tonight and attending the meeting. We would love to hear from you and get your feedback. About Creekside. And if you also have any feedback for us on how we can do things better or differently or any information for us about conducting a virtual meeting would be greatly appreciated. This was our first community based. Virtual meeting that we're conducting. And our host, one of our hosts, Emily Andrew is assisting moving this project forward. So her information is there. And her phone number, five, four, three, three, seven, seven, four for those, maybe on phones. If you have any other additional questions after this meeting is closed, you can certainly check in with Emily. Next slide, please. I just want to know that there is one question about when the park is going to be renamed. So maybe you can talk about. The board meeting will be in December and then we'll be going to the city council early next year. So. Yes. Thank you so much for that question. That's a great question. And yes, we, we do plan to go to the board of community services in December 9th. And so it will take us a month or two to get to council. So probably looking early spring for the name change. Of the park. So hopefully that helps. Were there any additional questions out there? No, there was, but I don't see any hands now. Okay. Okay, great. Thank you. So we can move on to the next slide if there's nothing else and just a huge thank you to everybody. And we staff are available. If there's any additional questions, please reach out to your recreation of parks department. One way or another, and you saw Emily's contact information as well. We'll go ahead and end the meeting now and thank you all very, very much for participating. Good night.


Okay So glad that's over. All right, welcome. Thank you all for coming today. I Really have to commend you it took a lot of courage to sign up for this mission this adventure We're about to embark on is not for the faint of heart So if any of you are pregnant or nursing Or suffer from any kind of heart condition Or if your doctor has advised against the eating of spicy foods I Asked that you consider consulting your physician Spiritual advisor psychic medium or nosy next-door neighbor before accompanying me on this journey While we wait to board the ship some of you might want to know a little bit about me your guide before moving forward with this Seafaring journey and I get it. I understand I Don't look quite like a seasoned ship's captain and you're right I'm not I'm Liz. I Used to be a cartoonist. I went to art school. I Drew a few graphic novels a Few years ago. I learned to code. I went to the Flatiron school in New York, and I started working in web development Nowadays I work at Tilda right here in Portland, Oregon Mainly I work on our product skylight, which is a rails profiler that helps developers optimize their rails apps Fun fact we also use rust which is a big part of why I started learning rust in the first place So before we get on the ship, I'll show you a map of where we'll be going right now Our ship is docked at the port of JavaScript just off the coast of Rubyville We'll be sailing the seas of chunky bacon and should be landing at the cargo Bay of Rustlandia in no time So get get on board take your seats no standing No eating or drinking but most importantly no staring at the captain's eye. He's really sensitive about it Say good-bye to your loved ones off we go If you look at your windows to the west you'll notice a beautiful sight some foliage that's native to Rubyville an abstract syntax tree Its nodes are particularly lovely this time of year. You're probably used to seeing these in Rubyville They tend to sprout anytime some code gets thrown into the interpreter just before it gets turned into bytecode So the Ruby virtual machine can run it as you might already know Ruby is an interpreted language So this is more or less what you're used to if you're a Rubyist But in Rustlandia, we'll have to remember to compile our code before we can run it. Otherwise it won't work So when we get there just remember two key phrases cargo build and Cargo run they'll come in handy when we reach the shore and start trying to chat up the locals If you try to just run your code directly like you did in Rubyville They won't know what the heck you're talking about I Also forgot to mention on the way out. You'll notice a big pile of mains Don't forget to take one. You'll need to put all the code that gets run inside of mains very important All right, everybody off the ship here. We are welcome to Rustlandia Let's check out the town. Remember things move a lot faster here. So be careful Check it out. It's the stack in the heap. Let's go inside You're probably used to not giving much thought to memory back in Rubyville Before I came to Rustlandia. I had never heard I had heard of the sack in the heap I knew it had something to do with memory, but I never really understood it Watch how things work at the bar people come in and they give their programs to the bartender and she compiles and runs them Someone wants a fancy whiskey and a cheap whiskey the good stuff is fancy. So we put that in a box and we store it on the heap Because we want it to be able to stick around for a while Even though it's high up and it's a little slower to get to most things in rust are stored on the stack unless you specify Otherwise people in Rustlandia. I guess they really like the cheap stuff Which is why we had to put the fancy whiskey in a box in order to store it on the heap So we run this program the good whiskey gets a spot on the heap at the far far end of our available memory That's like one of those cages in the top And we put a pointer on the stack that points to that spot on the heap next on the stack We put the cheap stuff the cheap stuff gets served up first because it's on top And then we have the pointer to the fancy stuff which the bartender has to go way way up to the top of the heap to get which she does All that sea travel made me hungry Let's check out one of our local eateries. I've heard good things about this one Sir, I can't quite read this menu. I'm used to seeing things like this Class appetizer Chunky bacon. I have no wife no children. I won't have a legacy the only world will know me for his chunky bacon and end Instead I see all these like structs and impulse and like what's this all about, huh waiter? So sorry madam. I know this isn't something you're used to back in Rubyville, but we here in rustlandia we We have no class. No class. I can't believe it. This is heresy How are we gonna get along with her class? It's the one thing separating us from the animals Don't worry. Don't worry at all. You can still get what you need Here's the chunky bacon struck. This is where we define all the attributes we expect out of it flavor chunkiness price, etc So then I can just do something like this and I'll be all set No, no my good lady. That's for that. You need to write an impulse That's an implementation of chunky bacon. So if you want a new instance of chunky bacon, you'll have to write a new method yourself It doesn't just happen automatically. Oh Well, very good. I'll have a I'll have a salad and now a word from our sponsors Me? Yeah, you there. You want to try some rust? You mean the iron oxide produced as a result of a redox reaction of iron and oxygen in the presence of water or a Mercer What do you've been reading Wikipedia? Not that rustful rust like my friend. Oh Yeah, that cool new systems programming language all the kids at school are talking about the very same Well, what about it? Do you like abstraction without overhead? I don't know how about concurrency without data races I think What about memory safety without garbage collection that sounds good. I really don't you'll love rust Welcome to mutability Lake It's a lovely day. So many of our distinguished towns people are out sailing their toy ships Some are fancier than others some are mutable some aren't This one here is a nice one. This one's not mutable So we can't change anything about it, but I can show it to you look how nice if we try to change anything about it though Hey, you can't do that. Oh the compiler is yelling at us. So we know we can't change this one. It's immutable. Let's try another one Cool, this one's definitely mutable. Let's make a few changes before we return it Perfect compiler. What do you think? No? What's the matter compiler? You put wheels on it. It's not a boat anymore. It's a car You said you would return a boat. You must return a boat Okay, okay, I'll take the wheels off. I thought it looked pretty cool though Hey, that look that boat looks pretty cool. You ain't No, that boat doesn't belong to you. Oh Sorry compiler. Who owns this boat? I do. Oh Sorry, can I borrow it? I was hoping to play with it in my bathtub Well, will you bring it back?  I hope this works. Hey, thanks for returning my boat Compiler does everything look good to you? No, you added a tugboat. That's not okay But compiler these boats are all vectors of strings all I did was push a tugboat onto it a tugboat is a string The tugboat isn't yours and neither is the boat. Yeah, that tugboat is mine Well, what if I just Boom punch the tugboat guy in the face and hit him with a remove Looks like no one owns this tugboat now You want a tugboat on your boat sir? Sure Well, now you have one And now another word from our sponsors Hey kid What? Did you get all that about ownership and borrowing? Huh, that's the cool stuff. I was telling you about before You mean like when you were yelling memory safety without garbage collection at me Yes, you got it. There'll be those so these aren't really problems. I've ever had to deal with Well, let me tell you if you were C++ programmer, you'd be really excited Okay, it's okay Can you just teach me something about rust so the kids at school will finally think I'm cool Sure thing kid. Let's try a less convoluted metaphor. Watch this. Hey again travelers. Have you seen our esteemed library? It's pretty great. You can borrow just about anything as long as you return it They even have this great big pile of books over here that don't belong to anyone You can just take them if you want and then they're all yours Every so often people will come by with donations of books. They don't need anymore.  You had a question Yes, what if the book is a mutable reference? Great question friend. Well, you might very well be borrowing something that's mutable like our collection of coloring books here You can continue coloring them while you have them and you can return them altered only one person can have one out at a time though We also have some exquisite corpse books that are pretty cool every time someone borrows one of these they add a little bit themselves Before bringing it back. I want to borrow the exquisite corpse book Me too. I want to borrow it too No, no more than one mutable reference at a time. You can have it now. We have to wait till he's done before you can borrow it. Oh Man No complaining. Do you want a data race? Do you?  Hey Don't judge the compiler so harshly look you hurt his feelings. He's not such a bad guy He's just making sure we do everything we do is good before we can run it The compiler is our friend. He just wants the best for us Sure, his advice might be a little hard to understand at times, but once you get to know him. He's a really good guy. I promise And now another word from our sponsors Tonight on WRST, it's the true story of how one statically typed programming language risked it all to figure out how to handle when things go wrong Being and nothingness and error handling Based on the true story If everything goes right the reactor will cool down and the city will be saved But if something goes wrong if this whole thing goes south Well, I guess I'll just do nothing. I mean this seems fine, right? It's just return an option I mean the compiler the compiler feels fine about it, right? Looking good Meanwhile across town The grocery store doesn't have the mustard I like Shut it down.  I need my Dijon compiler agrees. Don't you compile looking good? Just because the code compiles doesn't mean it's something you should do Results for when something could go terribly wrong and you need to throw an error option for when it's okay to just do nothing Opposite of what just happened Live it learn it love it errors Hey, welcome back just in time for the last boat to Rubyville I sincerely hope you enjoyed your stay and that you visit again soon If you want to stay a little longer, there are some very nice boxes at the heap Otherwise the boat is ready to board On your way back, we do have some very nice reading material for you if you're interested in learning more about rust I strongly recommend starting with rust by example this online book will lead you through the by hand step-by-step through many examples explaining everything along the way After that I recommend looking at the official rust reference documentation very helpful If you'd like to try your hand at some rust of your very own from scratch There are many excellent exercises available at Exorcism If you have any questions, there is also the rust reddit and the user forums or you can chat on one of the many channels on IRC In preparation for this talk with some help from Yehuda I've been working on a playable text-based adventure game version of this talk in Ruby Which I'm porting over to rust This way you can check out Ruby and rust code side-by-side And you can actually play the game you can check it out at this address the rust code is still in development most of it is on a branch called just rust things but The Ruby version is on master and it's playable. So even though I haven't plugged this story in yet to the game You can play a game And right now it's a little bit random, but anyway, I'm gonna be doing a lot of about moving I'm gonna be working on this a lot in the coming weeks. So feel free to check it out Thank you Last but not least I want to thank Tilda my employer for allowing me to work on the Ruby rust game on company time and Yehuda for working with me on the rust side of the game patiently answering my questions and helping me when I got stuck Once again, my name is Liz. I am on Twitter at underscore Liz Bailey because Liz Bailey was taken And that's it the end


Assalamu alaikum, and the name of Allah, the most beneficent, the most merciful, respected viewers, brothers and sisters in Islam, peace and blessings of Allah be upon you all. Welcome to Morals and Minutes, this is Muhammad Ali, and now we have to talk about sincerity. Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala, the wise, said in the Noble Qur'an, He is the living, there is no God but He, therefore call on Him, being sincere to Him in obedience. All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds. This verse from the Holy Qur'an vividly embodies the importance of sincerity in worshipping Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala and in everything else. The Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him and his progeny, has said, As for anyone who works to Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala sincerely for 40 days, Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala will make the springs of wisdom come out of his heart and tongue. Sincerity is one of the most important aspects in becoming successful. Sincerity stands for purifying one's deeds from blemishes of ostentation in order to make them purely intended to Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala. A sincere person strives to purify his soul from vices and exerts himself to perform good deeds and maintain sincerity of intention so that Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala accepts his deeds. Imam Ali, peace be upon him, has said, This world is woolly ignorance except the situations of knowledge. Knowledge is woolly ignorance except that which is practised. All the practises are sureness except those which are done heartily. Sincerity likewise is insecure before the end result is realised. Doing this out of one's own free will tells as to the measure of intention one possesses. In this there is sincerity, ikhlas and the action. Sincerity is the key to the acceptance of all deeds. When an individual performs a deed regardless of how trivial it is with sincerity, it is better than performing an immense amount of deeds without sincerity. Imam Ali, peace be upon him, regarding sincerity has said, Perform your deeds with sincerity for even a slight of it shall be sufficient for you. Also, Imam Taqid Jawad, peace be upon him, says, Sincerity is the best worship. With this, we pray that may Allah help and guide us on the path of sincerity. Respected viewers, we reached the end of our show for now. Thank you very much indeed for watching. And don't forget the dua'ah to hasten the reappearance of the Master of our time. His Majesty Imam Al-Mahdi may Allah hasten his reappearance. Stay tuned for more morals. Peace be upon you.


I forgot the term, Unconditioned Stimulus. No, so today folks, today, today, this moment, this one minute that you have, we're going to talk about Unconditional Stimuli, Unconditioned Stimuli, Unconditional Stimuli, depends on which translation you'd like from Pavlov. I prefer the Unconditional one, so an Unconditional Stimulus is something you don't need to learn anything about. It's just something you react to that your body creates an automatic sort of reflex. So if someone, see, there was a bit of a startle response, you had to watch my eyes, but what he really threw at me, actually he might throw another one, you never know. Unconditional Stimuli, coming out of the sky, I love it. So no, the chocolate's an Unconditional Stimuli. It's an operate responding to. So Unconditional Stimuli had to, the food is an Unconditional Stimulus. You don't have to learn that food in itself is good for you. Now chocolate on the other hand, now that's really good for you, special Unconditional Stimuli. But just in general, the U.S., right? So the U.S. in classical conditioning is what we're referring to. The U.S. gets paired with an N.S. and that produces a C.S. And there's more coming randomly. Shit, that one came over the light. I don't know what's going to happen. There's startle responses and I'm getting nervous. It's just, I don't know if it's just going to go on. I don't know what to do. Unconditional Stimuli, things you don't need to learn to respond to. They produce a reflex automatically. Thank you very much.


Quick update on FTX FTX is You know the the crypto exchange the Sam's The CEO of Alameda and and Sam's co-founder have both cut deals with the government They're both pled guilty to numerous counts of fraud and they are both cut deals with the government to get later sentences in exchange for them helping them out in the prosecution of Sam Bedford freed those of you who thought That You know that SBF was gonna get was gonna get off easy because I don't know he's given money that you know your delusional The fact is he's being brought and gonna be prosecuted in the southern district of New York a democratic district and yet He is gonna spend time in jail He is You know the fact that they flipped on him and they flipped on him so quickly and so early you've got to know that the feds have a solid case against him and Yep, he's going to jail for fraud Couldn't happen to a more You know what what is it anyway? His altruism will be you know tested I guess in jail. We'll see how how that works for him In there Will he survive jail? I don't know. I mean usually for fraud cases. They put you in pretty low-security kind of jail like like What's his name? The big the big pyramid scheme guy, but anyway He'll be in a low-security jail. I'm sure I'm sure he'll he'll survive it The question is how long will he have to be there and what toll will it take on him? Made off and of course there's gonna be there's gonna be made off as the guy was to kill But of course there's gonna be I mean, we'll see what kind of ripple effects they are from all of this and and where it all it all goes Thank you for listening or watching the Iran book show If you'd like to support the show We make it as easy as possible for you to trade with me. You get value from listening. You get value from watching Show your appreciation you can do that by going to your on bookshow.com slash support by going to patreon subscribe star locals And just making a appropriate contribution On any one of those any one of those channels also if you'd like to see the Iran book show grow Please consider sharing our content and of course subscribe Press that little bell button right down there on youtube so that you get announcement when we go live and for you Those of you who already subscribers and those of you who already supporters of the show Thank you. I very much appreciate it


Blessing. Blessing. Hello. Can everybody hear me? Yeah. Great. Guys. Everyone, thank you for coming here today. I'm very excited to have you here. I'm here to introduce Will. He'll be presenting on Welled SO and beyond. Going to be a great talk, and I'm really looking forward to seeing this come to life. Bye, guys. All right. Hey, everybody. Am I? Okay. I feel like I'm audible. If you can't hear me, then. Cool. All right. I got somebody in the middle. I guess I'm going to say I want to thank you in advance. Do some circumstances beyond my control. These slides are not finished, and my luggage arrived right before I got here. So I don't have slides, but I do have clean underwear on. So in the end, I think you'll agree that's probably the better choice. So I'm here to talk about Welled.SO and beyond. Welled.SO is a thing that we kind of made up. So I'm to give you a little background. I am a senior software engineer at Red Hat. I've worked on installation and upgrades for 15 years. And so our team has done, has a deep history in doing things that involve image construction and packaging and the sort of weirder use cases of that. The stuff I'm going to talk about is not like super, or it is fairly specific to RPM and the way that we at Red Hat build images and things like that. But I think the larger lessons sort of apply to the entirety of the Linux ecosystem. So, oh yeah, and some quick disclaimers. Nothing that I say here is like, this is software. Red Hat is definitely going to do. A quick show of hands, who in this room works for Red Hat? Okay, for the rest of you, the people who had their hands up, we don't know what number comes after seven. We can't count any higher than that. So this has nothing to do with whatever numbers might or might not come after seven. I'm fairly sure there aren't any. And yeah, I wrote these like two hours ago. So thank you in advance for bearing with me as I sort of ramble at you. So the whole thing I want to say, the sort of promise of this well.so thing is that like I'm pretty sure looking at the way that we construct images.  The way that you do that is like, we're using, you know, we're using RPM, we're using packages to do that. And RPM and friends were designed in the late 90s and they made sense at the time, but there's a lot of slack and stuff getting in its own way that makes everything we do harder than it needs to be. And with some tweaking, we could have a system, basically a model for Linux distributions for going from upstream projects releasing sources to code that you're running somewhere that was like insanely fast and reliable and just did everything really easily to the point where I'm pretty sure we could start up a build a container for every process as it starts up using only the things that it actually needs in its file system. So every process would have its own view of the file system. The same way we do with virtual memory where every process at startup, the dynamic linker goes in and links in the libraries that it needs and then actually jumps into your process. We could do the same thing with the file system. And if you think about it, it's kind of weird that we don't do that with the file system. Why is it that every process gives its own private view of memory that the kernel then arbitrates, but we give them all the same view of the disk? It's sort of like it was designed in an era where disks were really slow and there weren't a whole lot of computers and the idea of like doing that was just crazy and they're like we'll get to it later. If we can do that, if we can build images that quickly, milliseconds or less, we can actually do things like OSWide CI and CD which has been sort of troubling for Red Hat to do that sort of thing or in Fedora for that matter where we can't, we don't do nightly builds of Braheat or we do sometimes and sometimes we don't, we don't do nightly installer image builds because we do? We try. We try. Ah. That's kind of my point. I'd love it if we succeeded. That would be cool. But yeah, so I'm pretty sure that we can just tweak a few things and I say tweak a few things but it's actually like a fairly, it's a lot of small system-wide changes that we would need to do to make this sort of a world possible. But it is a lot like the shift from statically linked binaries in the late 80s and early 90s to dynamically linked binaries and we don't like think too hard about dynamically linked binaries as being like a crazy new thing anymore but like there was a time where that was new and controversial and people hated it and there were Solaris admins that were like I will never have dynamically linked binaries on my system ever, you know, fist on the desk. So like if you're getting, if you're getting a feeling in your chest like this is crazy, it'll never work. Why am I, why am I listening to this guy? Like give me a minute, just like clear your head. So okay, what is weld and welder? Just an acronym that we kind of made up for a experimental Linux distribution that we're sort of working on. Like what's it going to be? The meaning of the acronym changes depending on my mood. I think it was originally Wills experimental Linux distribution. At one point it was the Wigum Enterprise Linux distribution because of Ralph Wigum. But yeah, we're basically like figuring out new ways to do Linux sister stuff because the way we do it now is I'm saying it's like, it's gnarly. Everything is a lot harder than it needs to be and we seem to have a lot, we spend a lot of time fighting with ourselves, building new tools to deal with problems inherent in the system rather than fixing the system itself. Everything, like think about how many things, features of the RPM ecosystem if you're familiar with it like comps groups, every time we need to add something we add another layer, extra layer of metadata and another extra layer of code to parse that metadata. And at this point if you're dealing with, I think, modules involved like you have to fetch some YAML which then tells you where to get some, a SQL lite database that tells you where to get the XML, no the XML tells you where the SQL lite database is and then you can start parsing like other, like there's 18 different types of data involved and it's a mess and we could do a lot better. So I already kind of went through this stuff but I think that the heart of the whole problem is that we're stuck on RPM and anybody who has talked to me at all in the past like 10 years is sick of hearing a yell about RPM and I'm sorry, but the problem with it is that we have so much of what we do encoded in it that everything we build is built upon it and we keep building layers and layers on top of it and nobody understands how it works anymore. Like nobody actually knows the entire details of how the dependency system works or what's in the dependency tree or what's in all of the scriptlets and they're like non-deterministic and we don't know what they're doing but we have to run them as root because they might need a root so we have like this enormous mountain of code that we can't introspect on, we have no idea what it's doing and it has to run as root and that seems like a fine to everybody which kind of makes me cry at night but that's whatever. Sorry? Oh, the it's fine part. Well no, everyone just sort of looks at it and it's like I guess I mean I don't know what we can do about it and I'm like we could not do that maybe like just throwing that one out there and yes, so people are working around their problems and one of the things that I think is happening with our big shift to containerization is that and or like go where go by default build statically linked binaries and it's because of the troubles that we have with dependency resolution and things like that where you have your red hat or you have your fedora system or your rel system and you're like okay but I have this thing that needs these libraries and I have this thing that needs these other libraries how do we do that, how do we get two sets of libraries that oh my god the package has the same name but they're different versions they can't possibly coexist in the same system I don't know why, they're just files but okay RPM says they can't and so instead of like addressing that problem we as a community slash industry have been like what if we just went back to statically linking everything that was easier and like it works better but it's not a better idea it just works around that one problem so the whole thing and what I kind of went crazy doing for the past I'm not going to subject you to it but we don't really have a good model for how RPM works like if you look at the Linux kernel people have done formal memory models for how the Linux kernel deals with memory and what it does when it takes locks and all of that stuff to sort of maintain the illusion that everything is safe and reliable it is safe and reliable, asterisk but as long as you trust your hardware haha we don't have anything like that for RPM or packaging in general like we don't have any sets of like assertions like okay a well behaved build system needs to maintain these sorts of invariance or like we can assume that this is true but we can't assume this is true so like we just sort of make it all up as we go along and that's where things get weird like oh we can't install two packages with the same name with different versions because reasons and it's like okay well if we had a model maybe we could deal with that so you know I have a big like crazy model for how like written out mathematical model for how you do a Linux distribution but it actually involves the pieces aren't that difficult so it turns out if you kind of take it all apart and instead of like when you build a system using RPM what you're doing essentially the installer does, the installer is a mini-distribution and you boot a DVD or whatever and it starts this mini-distribution and it used to be like a full-fledged mini-distribution that had its own like mount binary and a knit system and everything that we had to maintain ourselves and then we made it into bonkers so eventually we made it so it's just a small fedora distribution that's very very stripped down that we boot and load into memory and we format your hard drive and then we start installing stuff into it which is kind of bonkers when you consider that most of what people do after that finishes is they remove all the stuff they didn't want or they make a bunch of changes afterward because we don't know what happens in the middle it's all mysteries to us and it's really weird that we take a we take an empty box and we have these little packages and people talk about packages like they're bricks and they just sort of stack up and you make a wall but they're more like tiny little robots with chainsaws and arms on them and you dump enough of them into a little room and they sort of fight it out for a while and then they build Voltron and you're like cool that's neat and we made it all work and that's amazing, like good job us but maybe we could make bricks instead is kind of my whole point like I'm gonna come back to this a lot and I'm gonna use a lot of dumb analogies like that but my point is that as a community and an industry we need to start looking at the places where behavior is not introspectable or not deterministic and start stamping them the hell out because they make everything else it sort of propagates upward if you have parts of the lower levels that need to run unknown code as root well your upper level either has to work around that or just deal with that maybe happening sometime and you can only make certain guarantees about what's going to happen in the middle it's not great so we sort of did an experiment on our team where we're like what if we were doing basically what RPM does what the installer does to build systems instead of actually doing the thing we open the box we throw in all the robots and let them build Voltron we take all of the pieces and we scrape off all of the code from the outside and just make them little bricks and we just put the bricks in place and we do the same for every package just lay down all the contents and then not run any of the scriptlets at all and it works like through a first degree approximation it works it turns out there are some things that actually do need to be dynamically generated but they're really well known I have a different talk about this about what RPM scriptlets actually do there's only like six things and it's like create users you know generate like it's basically sometimes you generate a file of users okay fine sometimes you do things like you create a host key well you don't always want to do that like you only want to do that if you're installing on bare metal if you're making an image for the first time that's going to be a golden asset you're going to replicate everywhere it does not need that machine specific key so we need to look at all of that but that's not what this talk is about the point is you can kind of throw it all away and it all still works so when we did that we built a thing we can put together a system I think it was a and Dave you can confirm this maybe it's a hundred times faster than our current stuff we can build yeah it was so we had an internal team trying to do continuous integration stuff on the kernel and so their whole deal was build a minimal VM, spin it up, do some stuff with it or build a minimal system and then spin it up and do some stuff took them about six minutes to build that image and then they could run their tests and we could build the equivalent image in six seconds and that's all I owe so going back to my yes this is basically dynamic linking is what we're doing there at that point what we're doing is taking in the same way you do with memory you're taking an empty process and you're sort of dumping in the pieces that you need this is the same thing as dynamic linking and we can just sort of borrow a lot of those ideas and make image construction way easier and way faster this is one of the things that Elf got right that RPM gets wrong where RPM is hard to extend like when was the last time we've added a couple of tags now and then we had weak dependencies after ten years of fighting about it we have build requires I don't think we have test requires yet yeah we've been fighting about that one for my entire career at Red Hat so RPM is notoriously hard to extend and also it changes without warning like fun fact there is a specification for RPM technically in the Linux standard base in that it's a de facto specification they wrote down how RPM worked at the time if you implement RPM from that specification it won't do anything we changed how we store file names in RPM headers and didn't even upgrade the increment the version number of the file format we just kind of like change stuff out from other people all the time without telling them it's not great so this is the other thing I'm going to hammer on to us as a community we need to actually start documenting how stuff works and like commit to not breaking it unless we're going to is that ten left okay cool commit to not breaking things without at least warning like incrementing a version number it's not that hard RPM I think has a 32 bit version number so like they could do that a couple of times and we'd be fine but the point here the point that this is dynamic linking is an interesting one because there's a whole lot of fun stuff that would happen if we started treating building images like we treat dynamic linking and I think this is where I run out of slides yep so I can either show you my big outline or I can just hand wave at you and I apologize for the hand waving but here we go so one of the problems that we have with containers is that we ship them around as statically linked blobs they're kind of not statically linked there's a bunch of layers to them in the same way that there are layers to statically linked binaries when you link in stuff you get you know you've got your compression library and all that so you can build them and then they're built and then you don't really know what's in them anymore and this is why we have things like container scanning when there is a CVE of some sort we have to go back and look at all of the stuff that everybody built and figure out which ones have the tainted code and then rebuild all of those if we were doing it dynamically where instead you are the image that you build your container is like an elf binary it's your code and some headers that say okay I need this version of this symbol I need this version of these Python libraries the same sort of symbols that we're using in RPM as dependencies with some tweaking because we want them to be deterministic because as it turns out and I have a talk about this tomorrow I'm pretty sure RPM dependencies are now Turing complete and you can use them to run arbitrary calculations which is not like the best thing that you want out of a dependency system it's kind of just like a fun party trick more than it is actually worrisome but it is like a thing to talk about but anyway the point is if you have a reasonable dependency system like elfs you can pull in just the pieces that you need at process startup time as I understand it most container runtimes don't share memory when they build, or at least with like the thin pool stuff when you're building and somebody correct me if I'm wrong, when each container has its own block device backing its image which means that the block device is different for each of them which means that if you have a thousand containers using a thousand of the same copy of OpenSSL you have a thousand copies of it in memory and on disk which is like it's not always like that okay good, so there is some improvement but the last I heard it was like that it was sort of well you need a block device so I am sort of stomping for a fairly significant change in how we expect a system to behave we should expect them to behave more like we expect memory to behave the expectation that you should be able to write to any part of your disk should be like silly because like we don't expect you to be able to write to any part of memory that's obviously silly the expectation or the expectation that you can write to the disk and other processes will be able to read it by default that's also kind of silly we don't always want that that leads to a lot of fun problems this is where we get temp directory attacks where you have well known file names and why we have to have temp trajectories at all is because there is a well known path that shares the same file system space well then you have problems we can eliminate that entire class of problems container like container scanning we don't need to do that anymore if we are automatically creating stuff we can eliminate directory name attacks by dynamically creating your file system just for you so that other people can't actually look at your file system so that's the well.so concept is basically let's look at how we put together our dependency chains let's try to winnow away all the parts of rpm that are not deterministic let's try to make dependencies themselves sane and get to a place where we can just sort of mash the package content all together when we need it and to do that effectively back in when dynamic linking was invented you needed mmap to make it work because just actually copying the whole bunch of memory into place that takes a while so then we're like hey we've got mmap mmap if you don't know how that works it's basically you say hey you tell the kernel put this library into this memory space and it goes cool okay whether or not it's actually in memory yet you don't have to care the kernel put it there when it needs it we could do the same thing with files we could be doing this rather than when you start up a container rather than building the entire container then we give you an empty namespace and when you try to look up stuff then we start putting stuff into it in fact we already have the capability to do this in the kernel it's just bind mounts so we need to do some stuff with rearranging paths to make this work but instead of actually decompressing a whole bunch of rpms and copying all the contents in you could just bind mount the contents of each thing that you need into your private space for your process this should take milliseconds it requires us to do some janky stuff with like where you look the paths that you look for libraries but we can do that we have control over the entire system we know how to do all of these things so the point that I'm making here broadly is that all of the things that we need to do to build a system where everything is reliable and deterministic shared in a way that isn't like it is now we have control over all of it we can just do this I just need people to buy in on the idea of making a somewhat radical shift in how we put things together and I don't know that that meets with a lot of resistance most of the time what I get is what I call the MacGyver problem which is sort of like this if you've ever watched MacGyver MacGyver's super dude with ingenuity and using things in unpredictable ways so a lot of times if you go back and watch an episode of MacGyver the entire thing hinges on him unlike somebody needs to get a piece of information to somebody else or else the ambassador is going to explode or whatever it is but you have to tell the ambassador not to say whatever it is but if you have cell phones the entire plot just falls apart you're just like hey ambassador don't do that it's MacGyver so the problem is if I show up in an episode of MacGyver and everyone's like what are we going to do the ambassador is going to explode and I'm like just call him on a cell phone everyone's going to look at me like what and then I'll be like okay so all you need to do is build a worldwide network of radio towers and then invent pocket super computers and teach them to talk to the radio towers and then you can just call him on his pocket super computer and they're like we're going to go with MacGyver's plan we're going to be loading now and it doesn't mean that like building this network is a bad idea but it means that it doesn't solve the problems that people are immediately facing and I think this is the other thing that we as a community and an industry have been doing is MacGyvering the hell out for years and not really looking at the larger problem of what it is we're trying to accomplish and like the larger thing about what we're trying to accomplish when we do image creation and what we're doing with containers is that we're trying to sort of do what we do with memory already to the disk because we have a lot of stuff like interpreted languages like Python that want to in the same way that C does where it's like okay I might need this library so make sure it's available for me and the kernel will put it in your memory space if it needs it we can do the same thing with the file system it just makes sense to do it that way but that doesn't, it's the MacGyver problem like it makes sense to do it that way but it would require systemic changes to everything we do huge changes, little changes but it requires like system wide changes and like you know I can do parts of this like how you store everything on disk you want to do it sort of OS tree style in a content addressable store so you get automatic deduplications so it's efficient and all that good stuff we have all of the pieces that we want to build this sort of a system we haven't put them all together yet and really it's just about getting everybody to get the idea in their head so that's sort of what this is going to be about it was going to have a lot more slides and the weld.so thing is basically once we get to that point, once we have made these changes we could have a system where your program, your thing maybe it has an elf header on it and it actually calls out to weld.so which then dynamically constructs an entire file system for your thing and it dynamically constructs memory space and then it runs, like we can build all of this all of the pieces are already there and that's about all I wanted to say I think about time, so yeah are there any questions about any of this, or do you just want to hear me rant about RPM more because I can do that all day so is there anyone doing this today, any of the other distributions any other OS's no, as far as I can tell no and I have a theory on this but no, I've asked around to anybody to wherever I could find it because of it, I've seen parts of like the building of packages more deterministic you see a lot of that in NixOS and like doing atomic updating and quick generation of images you see from OS Tree but they're still sort of constrained by RPM or their current system and so it takes a large like it takes an industry-wide effort essentially which is how elf got implemented in the first place in dynamic linking because the industry was a lot smaller then and you could kind of throw stuff around a lot more easily and there aren't a whole lot of people, companies making operating systems left and so there's a lot of MacGyvering and not a lot of like hey we should all work together to do this massive system wide change for the good of the industry. Containers sort of showed up because they scratched a niche but I haven't seen any I haven't seen the larger effort to attack the larger problem that I'm trying to describe and I'm sorry I should have repeated with the question. The question was is anybody working on this yet and yeah I've asked around I haven't seen it yet. Have you uh, have you like given any thought to what a migration path would look like? I mean hypothetically you get all this working and you say let's like get from here to there because it sounds kind of disruptive. Yeah and that's a big that's a big one and I think the way that we do that is not as hard as we might think in that a well-designed a well-designed system that adheres to a good model of how we want distribution to work would by sort of default like eliminating some of the gnarlier parts of what we have now it'd be compatible with it in the abstract so like what we did with our experimental image builder was we just imported RPMs. We strip out the parts that would not be allowed in our system but we just import content directly from RPMs and I think we also extended it to work with NPM modules. Is that right? Okay. Okay yeah so yeah the idea is that you can any model that is sufficient to make this work is also sufficient to or you can probably wedge existing things into it and so the plan is to sort of bit by bit look at how the whole system works next distributions are a loop basically right you have sources and then you make builds and you put a bunch of builds together to get an image and then the trick is oh when you did that build of a when you did that build that was inside a build environment which is an image so you've got this loop going of source to build to images thing so you can take pieces of that loop and replace them one at a time with something that takes the same input and has the same outputs but maybe is different in the middle and then you can start cutting out pieces like spec files for instance oh boy spec files there's like four different turing complete languages fighting for dominance in there and it's horrifying but if you had something that was you know data that you could compile into a spec file well now you've got something else that you can write that's a little more reasonable and we can still plug it into our existing stuff and then we'll wait what if instead of doing an rpm build and then putting the rpm content into our weird content store why don't we just build straight from this thing into the content store and we're hopping over rpm at that point so part of it is looking at the bigger model identifying each piece of the system and figuring out which ones we can most easily replace with something that's compatible but better which I know is an abstract hand-webial answer but I hope that makes sense it seems feasible all right cool you may actually have touched on my question already which was that I've first I want to say great you've said it way better than I've been ranting for the last 15 years right in working also with container builds there were we're doing this thing most of the time where we're building rpms and then running inside containers which I need air sick bags right but one of the things in looking at maybe ways to address that specifically was to take the rpm system and break it in half and say alright here's a build piece which creates artifacts and then we take them and we put them into an rpm or we put them into a container image you may have more sophisticated ways of thinking about that but that seemed to be to be a relatively simple way of reusing one bit but then I got to your then I got to your point of rpms no one knows how they work so part is hard but sure we do want to maintain backwards compatibility so it's not so bad to be like I think you're I think that's the right instinct there is to say all right we're going to have something that could do and do things a new way but also builds the old way if you want it to we didn't get as far back in the sort of process as looking at the spec side of it I mean I have ideas about it but that wasn't what we originally started attacking we started attacking sort of rpm as a storage medium and the dependency resolution and image construction start part of it I'm concerned with problems yeah exactly and yes I also have concerns with that and yes let's talk the the efficiency in the is mind boggling in containers and it's a good solution but lots you know we just keep getting more memory faster computers bigger would sound like there's a good security viewpoint from yours that seems like a maybe the biggest selling point if that's the right direction yeah it depends on who I'm talking to but yeah there's some interesting stuff about that I mean if you think about all of the memory protection in elf over the years right like you could do an equivalent to address space layer randomization file system layout randomization where you have marked in your in your container every place where you call say bin bash and just like we do when you start up an elf process we go through and relocate all of those so instead of being bin bash it's some randomized path and when we link in bin bash into your image we put it at that randomized path so even you don't know where bin bash is so like attacker can never run a shell because they don't know where it is and you don't know where it is all of the protections that we have for memory we can apply equally to the file system which is really interesting when you talk about interpreted languages that need the file system to get their libraries it's sort of a wonder we didn't do it before in from a from my point of view but yeah I think for a certain crowd of folks that's a very interesting I have a friend who works for the DoD who is very interested in this very problem so yeah I think that's something worth exploring further and yeah again this is a general thing any ideas that this makes you have about what you could do with a system like this I'd love to hear because I know the parts that I care about having done like installs and upgrades for like way too many years but I want to hear about the other stuff like I have vague notions about security things but I don't know what specific classes of problems it would eliminate for your stuff so please come talk to me let's figure this stuff out anything else we have time for one last question so yeah you brought up bash and actually this is where I'm trying to write my head around this so if all processes only had access to I guess the files that they sort of owned sort of how memory does how would like an interactive bash shall work like I teach an intro like the command line course right and so they learn about CD and all that kind of stuff so how would something like that exist in the environment you're thinking of in what sense like how would the what part of that would be tricky would you get a bash that could go to wherever in the directory hierarchy that wanted so your bash process is going to have its own memory view so yeah you're going to want to have like we do with the sort of file system containers like there isn't you're going to need a set of tools and this is what I'm alluding to you're going to need a set of tools that look at the sort of your system is going to have a root content store that contains all of the possible packages everything on your system is going to need you're going to want something that's your sort of hypervisor log in whatever a standard workstation type shell and that one's going to have been bashing there in the normal place your usual this is how you log in so like that that contained image is going to be a standard whatever but all of your other ones can be funkier if they want to so when you log into your your shoe that your shell sort of defines as what things should be in its file system but it's not going to get everything for everybody on the system right like if you don't use PHP at the command line you're not going to have PHP in there there's going to be another set of tools that you use to look at the global or not global but your systems content store to say oh okay I do have this copy of PHP here or whatever so yes yeah exactly or like it's a get or get style content store it's just content you have a package and your packages are all in some big heap and when you start a process you pull the right ones out of the heap and you run them and your login can be in that heap but it's not going to have everything in the heap unless you really want it to but why would you do that and there's collisions and stuff you can't really do that but anyway yeah no that's a it is an interesting point because it sort of disrupts the idea of logging into the system because there isn't a system there is each thing gets its own view of the larger whole of the components that are used by all of them but there isn't one canonical thing that unless you're directly looking at the store itself did that make sense okay cool and I guess that's all I got time for thank you all very much I really appreciate it our next talk is going to start in five minutes so stick around you need to use your own slides or do you want to okay well thank you I need I need a VT I need a VT I need a VT I need a VT sorry go cool I'll be right back okay so you just want to make sure that all the I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I