Welcome to the September 16, 2019 special meeting of the town of Essex Select Board. Would you please stand and join me in the Pledge of Allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you. There's plenty of space up front. For those of you who are still coming in, there's lots of seats up front. Our first order of business is agenda additions and changes. Greg, are there any? I do have one thing in front of you. It's just a clarification. There was some information that went out late on Friday afternoon. So this is that, along with some clarification between some discrepancies between those there and Monday. This is the updated form. OK. Anything else? Annie, can you see that? Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I think she's missing a. Oh, thank you. Sorry. Thank you. Thanks. I'm sorry I didn't do it, too. OK. Would anybody like to make a motion to accept the agenda as changed? I move we add the updated notification form to business item 5A. Is there a second? Second. So it's not just the notification form. It's the ordinance itself. And the ordinance. OK. It's just the ordinance. That's in the packet. We have a motion and a second. Any discussion? All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Opposed? OK. The next agenda item is public to be heard. This is for anyone who is here from the public who would like to speak on an item that is not on the agenda. If there's anybody here who wants to speak on items that are not on the agenda, microphones in the center of the room, please tell us your name and street. Hi, my name is Ken Signorello. I live at 166 Brigham Hill Road. I've just started meeting many of my neighbors for the first time, actually. And based on these brief encounters, I can tell that there's probably a lot of tension in the room for the agenda item tonight. I'm sure you're going to hear plenty. But I think I have a somewhat unique perspective. I have a business in the village, and I live in rural Essex. But to better help express my opinion, maybe lighten the mood a little bit, I've invited some friends to help. Maybe. Excuse me, Ken, but can you give us the topic of what you're discussing? This would be about the merger. OK. Is there a presentation of some kind? Very one minute. A one minute presentation. Maybe. Come right up. Irene Renner, 15th Rush Lane. I would ask the board to revise merger survey number two before it is deployed. Right now, you're marketing a merger that is essentially the same plan that was rejected by the voters in 2007. It looks the same. It costs the same. Instead, I would ask that you change your proposal so that our merged municipal board looks like the merged school district board, which has equal representation from outside the village and inside the village districts. Or you might want to consider setting up separate governing boards. These separate boards could come together and share functions that make sense, like the police. But they could also separately govern the four functions that have resisted consolidation thus far. For five years, we've been trying to merge things like fire, recreation, planning, and the libraries. I can understand why you would want to brute force merged departments that have not yet found a way to peaceably combine. More importantly, separate governing boards could provide at last the representation that the town outside the village has lacked, while maintaining the village trustees as they currently exist. Separation with sharing provides all the benefits of the special tax district alternative that you were considering, but without the legal conundrum that was posed. Would you please entertain this fresh new concept of separation and sharing, instead of telling us that the same old merger concept must not go away? There is something new under the sun, and it doesn't repeat the insanity and the waste of money that another top-down merger study already is all over again. You have lots of time before November 2020. Would you please stop rushing to ram that same old merger plan down voters' throats? Thank you. I've invited some friends to help. The life for me takes a village, but keep my taxes low. Father's day has trails, I'm scared.  Anyone else who has anything to say that is not on the agenda? I should sing like that also. We're going to have to work on that. Thank you. OK, let's bring my ukulele next to here. Ken, come to the mic if you have another comment. We're going to need credit where credit is due. That was Anika and Sino. I believe both students at ADL school, is that correct? At the high school, excellent. Thank you very much. All right, we are going to move on on the agenda. The business item, the first business item is pass new and revised provisions to municipal ordinance chapter 6.08, firearms and chapter 9.04, parks. So in our packet, the staff has itemized each section of the ordinances. And so I'd like us to go through each one of them. Greg is going to walk us through what the amendments are to remind us where we've been in this conversation. And then after each amendment is reviewed, we'll have a discussion. And I will like to get the consensus of the board as to what to do with each section. And then we'll go through each of them. Does that sound good to everybody? Pat? If just a comment, I was in a car accident yesterday. I'm a little stiff, so apologies if I get up and move around or stretch. I'm not listening to anybody. I just won't be able to sit in the seat for an extended period of time. Thank you, Pat. OK, so first section, section 6.08.000 in the firearms discharge ordinance. Greg, would you walk us through the changes that we've discussed so far? Sure. If you don't mind, I'd like to just do a quick summary of what I'm going to touch on the highlights based on the last meeting first. Sure. So after the last meeting on August 19th, the select board is looking for clarification on a few items. First is whether or not to allow target shooting on public land or whether or not that would be allowed. So there's some language in the proposed ordinances that would specify that target shooting is not allowed on public land. There are some questions about the dates of deer hunting seasons. So that's information that has been added to your packet. The question there for the board will be if you want to restrict discharge within Indian Brook and Saxon Hill as you've discussed based on deer seasons or if you just want to pick some dates as to when to allow hunting in those areas. There's a question about how to handle violations and enforcement of ranges that have not completed the notification form. There's some language in the ordinance that was added that within seven days of a violation being the town becoming aware of it. There'd be seven days to rectify that. Each subsequent day would then be considered a separate offense. There are some questions about liability. If the town does not take action on a known unsafe range, there's some information in there from Passive, which is the town's insurance provider. And lastly, after the information went out on Friday, realized some clarification in the notification form talking about perimeter. So making sure the perimeter language matched up with the ordinance language on posting a perimeter around a shooting range. And another question came in to me this morning. So to clarify that, the current ordinance talks about posting 500 feet within the perimeter of a range of property lines, or less than that, it would be posting of the property lines. So just some language to clarify that. That's what was handed out tonight. So with that, I'll jump into the actual ordinance language there with me. Section 6.08000, there's been no change to this. Since it was added, it's the definition of a firearm. And nothing has changed since the last time you looked at this. Floyd members, do you have any questions or comments on this particular section of the ordinance? It's good to me. I do not. Andy? No. OK, thank you. All right, so hearing that, let's move on to the next section. Discharging firearms prohibited area designated. In here, there is an old change. This is not new, but I'll just point it out. Just clarifying the discharge zone over by Old Colchester Road, the map, current map in the current ordinance language did not match up, so this just clarifies that. Down to the bottom of that section, we get into the parks, focusing specifically on the Essex Tree Farm, Indian Brook Park, and Saxon Hill Park, the 90-acre school parcel. The tree farm has been excluded. No discharge within the tree farm. That's what we've been discussing all along. For Indian Brook and Saxon Hill, there's been talk about when to allow hunting within those parks. We had talked about November 1st through December 15th. There's some new language in there specifying that hunting with firearms should be permitted within those parks by licensed hunters. That's to kind of allude to the no target shooting. It's only for hunting purposes of discharge to be allowed. Deer seasons change, and there's information in your packet, both in the reading file and in the agenda item for this or the packet item for this agenda topic. The state is looking at changing some of the deer season dates, making some of them earlier in November. Long story short, the dates change whether they change throughout the year. It's generally in the fall. It's typically been November through mid-December with some variations. Those seasons might be expanded. The question for the select board would be if you want to allow hunting within deer season dates, in which case some proposed language would be hunting with firearms should be permitted by licensed hunters. During the dates of rifle and muzzle load or deer hunting weekends, including youth and novice year weekends, established by the state of Vermont. Alternatively, you could choose two dates and say that hunting is allowed within the parks within those dates, whether that's December 1st or November 1st through December 15th, October 15th or December 15th, there's some other alternative dates. Thank you, Greg. OK, board members, questions, comments, observations? Max? The hunting dates seem to change year to year. To make it clear to the public, I would propose the board select dates, such as, for example, November 1st to December 15th, as opposed to making that a variable so that the general public, I know the hunters will know those variable dates, but the general public may not. But I think if we're consistent with dates, it will make communication to the public easier. I agree. Pat or Andy or Annie, any thoughts? Yeah, I think since we're talking about public park areas, which are used for recreation, such a consistent year round basis, I agree with Max. I think it's a good idea for us to just make sure the public knows year to year that those are always going to be the same dates. OK. Andy? I think from an enforcement standpoint, it would be much easier for an education standpoint so, right, folks, know when that aren't hunters, what dates, you know, hunting would be allowed. I would though entertain the question of whether we would do it October 15th or November 1st. I agree that for someone who wouldn't be able to keep up with the dates, it's much more clear to keep it at a set point. OK. So it sounds like all of us want to have a consistent date in the ordinance. And the question now is currently November 1st through December 15th. There's a question as to whether we should expand that to October 15th through December 15th. So that would be an additional approximately two weeks to the window. What is your pleasure? Question about that, though. Just want to make sure, and maybe I could find the answer myself, but I just want to make sure that if we move the date to October 15th, there's language in there that says that Vermont hunting regulations apply and that it is an open season from the 15th. It's based on Vermont established season. You know, only the things that are done on certain dates can be certain dates within the park also. So we're not just going to make sure that we're, I don't know, staff could comment about whether we have, if we move it to October 15th, there's sufficient language to say, you can still have to follow Vermont hunting season dates, even if we've opened it up to the 15th. Yeah, even if you do November 1st, that's not a bad idea to clarify which seasons. Licensed hunters, I think, helps, but we could say something permitted by licensed hunters from such and such date to such and such date for valid seasons established by the state of Vermont. Sort of why the set dates is an easier way to administer it and keep it consistent year round, year after year after year with signage. Right, but if we move the date from November 1st to October 15th, rifle season doesn't start on October 15th, right? So you still have to follow the, we just want to make sure that this doesn't make somebody think, and I'm sure nobody would think that, but you could try to interpret it to say, well, hey, the ordinance says I can hunt on October 15th, so I'm hunting on October 15th. Do we need to have language in there, and maybe I'm, I don't, I hope I'm not insulting anybody by saying that we need to put it in there explicitly. So Greg just recommended a good phrase for valid seasons established by the state of Vermont. Do you feel that covers that? Yeah, I have a hard time hearing Greg at the other end of the stage. Oh, sorry. So, so, so the, yes, we follow Vermont established seasons, even though we've opened hunting up earlier, we need to make sure that the language is there to cover that. I'm just gonna re, I'm just gonna reframe the same thing that you're saying, so I feel good. Oh, okay. Okay, so. The parameters being set so that people are aware that hunting can be occurring within this timeframe, and we want it to be consistent. However, for those who are doing the hunting, there's an awareness and a knowledge of the season dates. Yes, exactly. Right. Yeah. From what I read, you know, just of the expand, the reason why the hunting season is expanding in the first place with the control of the deer population, I would be amenable to making it the 15, just as long as it's consistent. It seems like if they're looking for deer control, you know, which was the whole reason for expanding it out in the first place, that would be my first gut instinct, just to keep it there, and then we have those designated two months, but. I had the, the same idea as Patrick. I think October 15th allows for the Anterlis season to happen, which as we know is an important added to help control the deer population, and it also would encompass the youth novice folks, because we also know the number of hunters is dwindling. They're been helping to control the deer population if we want to ensure a pipeline of hunters to help maintain that in our community. I think it's wise to open that up just a little bit more to October 15th to ensure that we can capture the youth novice and the Anterlis. The Anterlis. Season. I don't think I heard from Andy or Annie on the date, or if I did, I've already forgotten. Can you remind me? Did you have any thoughts about the date, October 15th or November 1st? I'm in favor of going to the October 15th, yeah. Sorry, asking then if Andy and Annie, if they're what they think about the October 15th date. I'm in favor of expanding to the October 15th. Okay. Annie? I'm a little shy, but I hear that it's appropriate, and maybe I'm in agreement as well. I'm just still mulling a little bit. Okay. From what we understand, the state is expanding the dates into October. So then we'd have to really, to be respectful of what we're trying to do overall. Yes, we don't have to. No, we don't have to. Other public parcels that are not affected by this, that people could still hunt on whenever they want to, but so October 15th sounds to be the consensus of the board. And if we add the phrase for valid seasons established by the state of Vermont, so that it clarifies specifically what you're allowed to hunt during those dates, that sounds like everyone's happy with that. Works for me. Okay. All right. So, next section, 6.08.045, outdoor shooting range conditions. Greg, would you walk us through? So this is the section that is looking to define an outdoor shooting range, and was looking at creating a notification form system for anyone who wants an outdoor shooting range. Changes since the last time we looked at this, defining that the ranges should have warning signs that meet NRA standards, posted around the perimeter of the range, defining the perimeter as 500 feet, 500 foot setback from the range facility or the property line, whichever is the shorter distance, and then clarifying the violation. Any person who fails to submit a completed notification form or otherwise fails to meet the conditions of this outdoor shooting range ordinance after seven days of receipt of written notice of such failure from the town shall be subject to penalties set forth in section 6.087.0 of the ordinances. Each day that passes after the seven day notice period without the submission of a notification form or curing the failure to meet the conditions of this ordinance, shall constitute a separate offense. And that is what has been added since the last time you saw this. And then there's the form. Yes, I can jump to that if you like. Might as well. So here's the form based on some feedback from Passif, the town's insurance provider. They were concerned that if the town was aware of an unsafe range and did nothing to do about it, the town would be at greater liability. So the proposal for the form is to remove the site plan requirements. And it would strictly be looking at getting the address of the range, the property order, parcel ID number, date of establishment, intended use of the range. Still debate over the proof of liability insurance. If you read it closely, Passif recommended that that be set even higher. I know the board was going back and forth on what that should be, so I left it as is. And clarification, talks about the posting and just clarifying that the 100 foot interval is along the perimeter of the shooting range facility to match the ordinance language. And lastly, taking note of some language about the certification, so it just says that the property owner shall defend and identify and hold harmless the town from any claims for damages or personal injuries resulting from the projectile leaving the bounds of the property. That's not a change, but that's what's left in there. Thank you, Greg. So I'm gonna jump right in here. We've discussed this a great deal and we've done a ton of research. We've had extensive public input on this. After all of that, and particularly after the public input, I don't think the outdoor shooting range conditions section should be included in the ordinance. I don't think that it provides a sound enough legal ground for the town to enforce it, and I agree with the concerns that Andy has brought forth multiple meetings in a row regarding liability. I think there are other ways to address safety that are on more solid legal ground and that have precedent, which we'll talk about in a little while, but I do not support this section remaining in the ordinance. Yes, I was gonna make the same recommendation that we strike section 6.08.045 from the ordinance tonight. I think where we ended up isn't really doing what we had hoped. And I think there's other ways that we can explore public safety about these areas at a future meeting, but for tonight, for the ordinance that I'm hoping that we could pass a version of tonight without that shooting range section. Anyone else, Annie? It's a difficult thing to really clearly help all angles of the emotional feelings about all of this. And after deep thought and deep looking, I agree, Elaine, that this is not a path and also from listening, this is not a path that's going to get us the result that even though I know a lot of people want us to agree to this, this isn't the path. I would agree that it should be a waiver. Thank you. Thank you. Pat or Andy? I mean, the advice that we got from our insurance provider as well, it gets really to the heart of what had concerned me with this in particular along the whole time, which is they want not 500,000, I'm not sure if anyone has read the packet through, but they suggested a $5 million policy. So I mean, it's just, we're just all over the map as far as whether or not the legality of this would hold through and with a $5 million recommendation, I mean, that's just, it's too much for the town's provider to take on and for us to, I think, stand behind. Okay. Andy, any thoughts? Oh, my position hasn't changed. Could you reiterate it for me, please? That I'm concerned about liability for the town for having the, and that the what this has devolved to is inadequate for providing any public safety. Okay. Andy. I'm sorry, I didn't fully articulate what I meant to say. Attempting to do this would be challenging for all parties in a way that would not be effective at all. And I just want to be clear, because I know that there's a lot of people that wanted this to get passed. But I think deep down listening to all the people that advocated for not this, and just imagining it being enforced or how to, it's just, it's just, we've absolutely looked in depth at both sides of this, and I just want to be clear to those that wish that we would say yes to this, that this would not be a healthy yes for this piece. Thank you. So I have the sense of the board on that as well. And, oops, I went too far. And the next section is 6.08.070, violation and penalty. Take it away, Greg. No change here. I do still recommend, or as we've talked about, higher penalties. Just jump to it. Increasing the penalties for offenses. It's still relevant, even if you take out the section 6.08.045 with the shooting ranges, there's still other penalties and violations that may occur. So no changes since you saw this last, but there are proposed changes for the ordinance. Thank you, Greg. Once again, board members, thoughts on this section? I'm okay with it. Insane. I'm fine. Yep, Annie, okay. And last section, this is a different ordinance, 9.04.100 prohibited activities designated. Greg. Just jumping to that section. So previously this had talked about clarifying town parks, with the exception of Indian Brook and some others where shooting would be allowed. What was added since the last time you saw this was section 9.04, I forget the number. 100 letter L discharge of firearms for the purposes of target shooting within park boundaries is prohibited. So that's clarifying that. In case you didn't notice it, at the beginning of this section, there's a definition of parks. Nothing has changed there, but it specifies what the definition of a park is and basically captures public land, town on land, excuse me. And Andy, I believe that addresses your question about target shooting. Yes, thank you. Okay. Any questions or comments on this section, board? Nope, no. No, okay. All right, so before we move to a vote on approving this amended ordinance, we'd like to welcome some public input if you have it. The same procedure as has applied in the past. Many meetings still applies today. If you'd like to speak, please come. Patty, you were welcome to go to the mic when it's time. Thank you. No. Yeah, we're gonna do it. Well, see how many people would like to speak to the ordinance tonight, okay. Could you keep your hand up? Keep it up, yep. Way up. Whoa, okay. All right, we're gonna use the standard minute 30. We have a lot of folks here tonight. Come to the mic, tell us your name and your street. And if you are agreeing with a fellow resident, please just let us know you agree with them and let's keep it moving. And yes, everybody gets a chance to speak once. Thank you. Mike's all yours. Brad Kenneson, Bixby Hill Road. I came to speak on a variety of issues tonight, but I don't think there's any need. I wanna thank the board for finally listening to the majority of the residents and using some common sense approach to this ordinance. Thank you. I too wanna thank you. I believe this board has legitimate interest in controlling unsafe or disruptive behavior on its property. I really thank you for that. You are responsible for managing and overseeing the recreational activities of all persons, two or four-legged residents here or out of towners so that they may enjoy both our parks, greenways, roadways and trails without question, ensuring the safety of all visitors. It's an important consideration and it means a lot. Firearms are on lots of land. Which we own in Callis are designed to kill. There's lots of animals there. Permitting unregulated firearms in Saxon Hill Park or near the road would heighten the potential of injury or death to our visitors. I was going to say, is your goal to permit all visitors to enjoy our heavily used Saxon Hill Park in public greenways without undue risk of harm? That was the question, but you've done a great job answering that. Thank you very much. Patty, could you state your name and your address for the record? I'm sorry. Thank you. Patty Davis, nine hillside circle, Essex. Thank you. Thanks Patty. Mike, Katie, Lost Nation Road. Since Jim Weston's not here, I don't think I see him. He's on Towers Road so I just want to relay something for him. I talked to him a little while ago. He can't make it. I think he's at his son's football game or grandson's football game. Either way, he has talked to at least one of his neighbors. He's been trying to get a hold of the other one. But he has said that it's been very amenable and I just want to point this out as a success story that talking to your neighbor solves a lot. He is moving his backstop to a different portion of his property that is further away from both of his neighbors that he's kind of been involved in this conversation. And he's at least one neighbor he's talked to. He's very happy about that and pleased with that. So I just want to highlight that to everyone that we're all living the same town. We're all neighbors and hopefully friends here. So just take that time to just talk to your neighbors. Talk to your friends and you may be surprised at how well they react if you just approach them nicely. And hopefully they'll return that same respect to you. So I think it's a success story for just this whole topic. I want to get that out. And I also want to say that I'm very happy to stand up here and say I agree with everything you all have talked about tonight and the decisions that you're going to vote on. And I appreciate you listening to the facts, all the data, and putting that all collectively together to make some well informed decisions. Thank you. Don't forget to state your name and street. Brian Murphy, 187 Towers Road extension. With respect to the Jim Weston comment, I'm his neighbor. And I've called him and we talk. And actually Jim and I have a good relationship. And when I stood up here, first of all, I never named him individually. And on any occasion we would have differences of opinion. We've talked and we've had good outcomes. Just so people outside the discussion know, I have good conversations with Jim. I'm very fond of his family. My concerns from the get go were if you don't have an objective standard, I said at many meetings, what if I can't talk to my neighbor? I have a neighbor that just tells me to pound sand. And I never put Jim in that category. So I hope people who have heard bits and parts of this understand that on the two occasions where he had problems, I picked up the phone. And one day I walked over and we talked to him. And we had good outcomes. But I do fear that the relationship I have may be unique and not everyone gets to talk to the neighbor. Separate, just a question. You mentioned that the path forward is not this notification form. And you mentioned another path in safety alternatives. I'm simply curious of what those are if at some point in this meeting you could allude to those. Thank you. My name is Mia Watson. I live at 8 South Street. I'm the granddaughter of John Rice. You've heard this story, but I'll tell it again. He died 11 years ago when his neighbor shot a bullet through my grandparents' window while he was target shooting. My grandfather died in his own house at his own dining room table while my grandmother was sitting right next to him and watched it happen. This is a debate between people wanting to target shoot for recreation and people wanting to be able to enjoy their parks and their backyards without worrying that they or their children will be shot and killed. I understand that there is nuance that needs to be considered in this debate, and there are things like insurance and legal requirements. But to act that these two desires are completely equivalent is absurd. Again, it's been 11 years since my grandfather died. Years and years of meetings and committees and public outreach. And I appreciate all the work that it took to bring us this far and the courage that's been shown by the select board. But in the end, after 11 years, nothing has been done to make this town safer for people in their own homes. Thank you. Nils Giddens, Whitcombe Meadows Lane. Previous comments speak for themselves. I think it's reasonable to remember that the whole initial discharge ordinance task force started after the event that involved a shooting range. And you have done, as I see it, nothing to help with that. So I know where you stand. Maybe we have to think about other approaches, thinking laterally, maybe an education section that would entail the signage that also you were committed to that I don't see anything about other than in Elaine Haney's introduction. Nothing about signage of the boundaries in the proposed document or the timing other than in the introductory letter. I would urge anybody with a shooting range, if you see somebody with a for sale sign anywhere near your property, maybe it would be the nicest thing as a prospective neighborly duty to let them know that a shooting range is there. Otherwise, how will people know what they're getting into? That was one of the reasons for the notification form. Thank you. That is all. Linda Costello, I live near the fairgrounds. I couldn't shoot a deer if it walked across my dining room table. But I'm gonna tell you that I know it's hunting is important to people and target shooting. I talked to Elaine about this on the phone and suggested to her that there could be a town shooting range, not a $2 million building, but an area marked out by the town where people could shoot. Now we have pools for people who wanna swim and we have a nice rink for people who wanna skate. And if somebody wants to do target shooting, it would seem to me that we ought to be able to set up an outdoor facility that's safe, well marked and people would shoot there and it simply would be against the law to shoot anywhere else. I don't think private ranges in somebody's property is a good idea. But I think if we had an area where everybody knew it was going on and it was marked off, that might be a solution. Thank you. Thank you for having this hearing. Hi, Ben Brough. My family owns 54 Lost Nation Road. I'd just like to tell the board that I agree with the direction that you're taking tonight and thank you for doing that. I also would like to see, I think both sides, since the beginning of this have brought up the signage, especially around the town properties. So I would definitely like to see that happen both directions, something like you're now entering a no discharge zone except for these dates for hunting and also you are now entering private property. So I hope that the board would pursue that. Thank you. My name is Kelly Adams and I live at Kings Court. I appreciate the thoughtful process that has gone on. I think we are at a time in our national dialogue around guns and gun safety that is very, very heightened and I appreciate the opportunity for civil discourse and thoughtful input and I'm grateful to live in a community that values that. I hope this, I'm sure there's a desire that a bow be put on this as this passes or doesn't pass but I hope it's a conversation that will continue as if these ordinances are put into place, what changes, what doesn't change, what concerns linger. As I drove here tonight, I stopped at many stop signs. I observed speed limits. There's many, many things that we agree to do as a community that help us all stay safe together. 30 seconds if you would. And I hope that this will be part of that dialogue as we go forward because I think we've come a long way and I still think there's some ground to be covered. Thank you. Would anyone else like to speak? Hi, John Bourbon, 348 Browns River Road. I'd like to thank the board for your change in direction. I think it's a wise move and I appreciate it but I'd also like to point out one possible problem when your definition of firearm. The Gun Control Act of 1968 specifies guns made before 1898 and their facsimiles are not considered firearms and they can be shipped through to mail. So I'm not sure if that changes your thinking at all but if you look at talking about defining a firearm the same way the feds do, I'm not sure you're exactly on the mark. So I just thought I'd like to point that out. Alan Packard from Essex 123 Indian Brook Road. I would actually like to see the whole park closed down. I've lost two dogs and within two years for the traffic going up and down. I'd like to see that place closed down and I oppose your gun stuff. That's what I'd like to say. Chris Adams, 178 Browns River Road. I'd also like to thank the board for your work, for the time that you put into it and for the opportunity for the community members to come together to provide an input. I definitely agree with the kind of this change in tact, this new direction. And I'd also want to just kind of follow up on what Mr. Katie said. I think that as folks in this town who value hunting and shooting sports, the onus is on us to make good choices, to be good neighbors. That is really what will hopefully preserve our rights as long as we possibly can, knowing the changing fabric of Vermont. As someone who grew up in the kingdom and now lives in Essex. So thank you again, appreciate it. Ed Wilbur, Browns River Road. I would like to thank the board for their thoughtful consideration in changing direction. I think after the last meeting, I think a few of us were a little put off that we were somewhat getting chastised that we were making comments and threatening lawsuits. To me, there was a failure to understand that portions of the ordinance were a direct threat to our civil liberties as private property owners. It was a threat to our recreation. It was a threat to our hobbies. It was a threat to our traditions. It was a threat to our financial burden. And greatest of all, it was a threat to our privacy. Again, I'd like to thank the board for changing direction on this and reconsidering. What I would like to emphasize is that I think moving forward, we need to think about education. And I think we've got a lot of people in the room representatives from the NRA, from the Sportsman's Association in terms of how to educate the public, but also how to educate gun owners and range owners in how to operate more safely. And I would really like to see, again, an emphasis on education moving forward. Thank you very much. Eric Bailey, 55 Wilkinson Drive. Just more of the same. I actually ended this process with fairly low expectations that movement and consideration would happen and thank you for proving me wrong. I think the board looked at hard facts and the winners will be both the public and the ecosystem in our parks. Thank you. Mitch Allen, 161 Laws Nation Road. I too would like to thank you for moderating the initial start of this search for an answer. And when we speak of safety in the parks or people enjoying parks, we are all citizens. We all have equal rights.  Sometimes people forget that and they look at things from their own perspective.  Thank you. Is there anyone else who'd like to speak? Hi, I'm Sarah Salatino. I live up on Brigham Hill Road. I'm sorry I missed the first part of the meeting. I just got out of work. I do understand that you're no longer requiring the form. You're no longer going to register shooting ranges. I think my feeling about all of this is that I'm really tired of the constant noise that's in my neighborhood. I'm tired of the fact that on Brigham Hill Road, the Planning Commission is allowing all kinds of variances for homes to be built and pushed into either side of our road. And we're turning into suburbia. I'm very frightened that something is gonna happen sooner than later. I'm not against shooting. I'm not against responsible gun ownership. I am against the totally uncivil constant noise that it produces. And in my line of work, I have a plant nursery where people come to decompress. It is very disconcerting to listen to AR-15 weapons going off for four hours at a blast. And I know all of you have your right to have your guns. I have a right to hike and ski and to have my place too. But it's quite diff, I know it's probably time. No, no, you're telling me. Okay, but I just want people who are shooters to take into consideration the fact that it's loud. And education isn't gonna do it civility well. And I do support you, your right to hunt and shoot. Does anyone else wish to speak? Going once? Okay, thank you for your input. Thank you for your attention throughout this entire process. We're gonna bring the discussion back to the board. And we've gone through all of the sections of the amendments, amended ordinance that we need to consider for voting. Before we begin to vote, I want to answer the question from one of you about an additional step that we could take. We did change course on the shooting range notification form because it did not address public safety. But there are other things that we still plan to consider. One of which is a density based zoning ordinance or an aspect of this ordinance that would address density. The city, the town of Colchester and the town of Williston both have this in their firearms discharge ordinances. It's a density based system that dictates where you can and where you cannot discharge weapons. And it also talks about what kinds of weapons can be discharged depending upon where it's located. There are links to these ordinances in our packet today. You can find them on the Williston and Colchester websites. My understanding is that in both towns these ordinances were developed with the assistance of the police and with the assistance of the Vermont Federation of Sportsman's Clubs. So we're gonna look at that because it is something that stands on solid legal ground that is a precedence in abutting neighbors and does address public safety. The other thing we're going to discuss is when our chief of police comes to us with an updated ordinance for noise. There are aspects of the noise ordinance that we can address firearms discharged through such as frequency and duration. So while we are planning to work on this part of the ordinance that we've amended and agreed to so far this evening, our work is not done. However, considering the fact that our budget season is approaching, we are deep in merger discussions and there's a lot of other business to go through.  So I just want you to know that public safety is still something we're going to continue to look at. It is still a significant concern of a lot of people and we're not looking to trample on anybody's personal rights or traditions, but we do have to do everything we can to improve public safety. So we appreciate your contributions to the conversation and it will continue. So we've reviewed all of the ordinance amendments. Sorry. We've reviewed all the ordinance amendments. Are there any further questions or discussions about what we're gonna vote on? Max. So the bit about the signs, that doesn't necessarily need to be in the ordinance, does it? Nope. In order to enable the signs to go up? We also got some guidance from VLCT, which is passive about signage and making sure that it's at the main entrances and maybe even some secondary entrances to make sure to all of it, to our parks, to make the public more aware. Indian Brooks is a large place. So. A lot of entrances. But we're not gonna be able to maybe do them all, but we will do the main ones and maybe some of the secondary ones that are larger in size. Okay, but though it's not pointed to in the ordinance, it's still. That's just a board directive. Yes. And do you think the signage that we're gonna need to make sure this is very clear to the public is something that we can implement right away? We won't put up permanent signage, but we can get up something temporarily, certainly for October 15th. For October 15th. And then we'll just get permanent signage. Okay. And will we have staff that will check and make sure the signage is visible? Like just checking on that signage, making sure it's still standing and making sure that it's visible at all times. Checking on it over the course of the year. A park screw can look into that. Great. We'd also appreciate if the public sees that the signs that they passed once before isn't there. We have email, we have phones. C-click fix. C-click fix on the website. That would be great. It's a big 36 square mile town. If there aren't any further questions or comments from board members, I'll accept a motion that there's a sample motion on page three of this section of our packet. Anyone would like to make that motion? Or I could make the motion. Andy? I didn't do it, I guess. I moved at the select board of the town of Essex hereby ordain the passage of new and revised provisions as amended to municipal ordinance sections six dot zero eight dot zero zero zero definition of firearm six dot zero eight dot zero one zero discharge firearms prohibited area designated six dot zero eight dot zero seven zero violation penalty and nine dot zero four dot one zero zero prohibitive activities designated. Second that. Thank you, Andy. Thank you, Max. Is there any further discussion? Andy? Can you clarify what the next steps are? This is where we're ordaining the ordinance and there's another public hearing. Is that true or what's the? That's our next step on the agenda. So our next step, if we approve this amended ordinance is to warn a public hearing on the amended ordinance to be held at a later date, which I believe will be October 7th. So that's our next step on the agenda. Okay. Okay? Yep, thank you. So we have a motion and a second. Any further discussion? All those in favor of amending the ordinance as specified by Andy, please say aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed? Thank you. You've passed the ordinance amendments unanimously. Our next order of business is item five B, warning a public hearing to consider final passage of new and revised provisions to municipal ordinance chapter six point zero eight firearms and chapter nine point zero four parks. Greg? So now that you have passed the ordinance, as you just said, the next step is to warn a public hearing for the ordinance. Suggest, staff suggests October 7th, which is your next regularly scheduled meeting. After the public hearing, if you choose to adopt or choose to adopt the ordinance, it's called final passage. So you would move to make final passage of the ordinance at which point it would take effect immediately. Thank you. Does anyone have any questions about that process? We have been through it before and at the time of a public hearing, we made some changes and so we had to delay and start over basically. So that's what we're doing here. If anybody doesn't, if you don't have any questions or comments, we'll accept a motion to warn the public hearing. I move the select board, warn a public hearing for Monday, October 7th to consider final passage of new and revised provisions to municipal ordinance chapter 6.08, firearms and chapter 9.04, parks. Thank you, Max. Is there a second? Second? All right, Annie. Any further discussion? All those in favor of warning the public hearing, please signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? All right, we will have a final passage, public hearing on the ordinance on October 7th. That concludes our business items for this special meeting and we'll move on to the consent agenda. Yes, please, let's put it on the table. All right. I move approval of the consent items with select board comments. Do you want to leave? Yeah, we're gonna recess for a moment while everyone clears the room. So I had made a motion to approve the consent items with select board comments. Is there a second? Second. Okay, is there any discussion? I just want to make a comment. Andy. I had asked a question about there was a $60 charge for Green Mountain Messenger for a book delivery and I questioned why we were spending $60 to deliver a book and turns out it's $60 to deliver 60 or 70 books. It's part of the exchange program, the interlibrary exchange. I wanted to thank staff for getting that answer for me efficiently and it's a good answer too. Thanks, Andy. Are there any questions or comments regarding the consent agenda? All right. All those in favor of approving the consent agenda signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? All right. I will bring the check warrants to your next meeting because I just realized I forgot them. What's that? I forgot to bring the check warrants so I'll bring them to your next meeting. Thanks. We now have the reading file. Select board comments. None. None to be had. All right. Then having nothing else on the agenda, I will accept a motion to adjourn. So moved. Second. All those in favor of adjourning, please say aye. Aye. Congratulations. It's 808.


Okay, we're here to test the audio, probably been having some trouble with the equipment, some technical difficulties if you will. The audio has been crappy, it starts out good and for no reason whatsoever in the middle of everything it just goes crappy. So we're going to do a couple of things, we're going to share the screen, we're going to play a couple of videos and then we're going to sign off and I'm going to check everything out and see how it went. So first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to get something in the prep here to do that. Like I said, we're testing equipment right now, so I'm going live, but we're testing equipment, we're playing some videos, we're testing my audio. My audio has been going in and out, I've tested everything, sometimes it's good then for no reason it's bad. Not sure why, so let me know how the audio is if you can, it's been iffy. The audio has been iffy, so we're going to run through a couple of tests, we're going to play some videos and then I'm going to go check it out and see how it was. So this is the badge, these things aren't even in my carousel, I'm just playing videos to test my equipment, I only have the one thing in the carousel, the unstoppable groove and we'll play that at the end, it's my son's band, it's on Amazon music, it's on Prime and Spotify, it's all on all that kind of stuff, but pretty good song. So we did that and everything was good in the audio up until this point in the other night and then I shared this video and then when I came back the audio was bad, so bear with me for a couple of minutes. So then when I came back from showing that video, then my audio was kind of crackly and not so good, so how's my audio now if you're listening, I'm going to go back and replay it obviously and check it out, but just curious if it was better before and now it's not better if you were listening before, if you weren't, I'm going to know in a few minutes anyway, but I'm going to share one more video quickly because that's what I did the other night. You didn't know that you could start a side hustle and start making money online? Hi, I'm Jim. And then I came back and the audio was crackly, very crackly, like muffled. You could hear me, but it sounded like I was under water. So I don't know how that is. I'm going to check it out. Anyway, we're going to check out the Unstopped groove. I'm going to share my screen and like I said, it's my son's band, so don't feel obligated to make any purchase. I'm just going to play the music because I think it's a good song. All right, so I don't know how's the audio now and not that I played that now. I don't know how the audio was during it. Uh-oh. They're going to keep playing music after that, I guess. All right, we'll just have to get rid of that. All right, so anyway, how's the audio now? We're going to check it out. I'm going to go back. I'm going to listen to the audio. We came on because last night I came on, audio was fine at the beginning, played a couple of videos, did a couple of B-rolls. When I came back, the audio was not good, funky, so I just did the same thing what I just did now. Last night, I just did now, played a couple of videos, went back and forth, and I'm going to go back and test it and see how it is. But I'm going to probably go live tomorrow, Thursday, seven o'clock. Thursday, seven o'clock, we're going to go live. We're going to talk about making money with Amazon, being an Amazon associate. Okay, so see me come back, see me tomorrow, seven o'clock on Amazon.


This study assesses the financial feasibility of implementing autonomous green hydrogen production plants in two strategic regions of Chile. It considers the cost of capital, operating expenses, and other factors to determine whether or not the project would be profitable. The study found that the minimum expected return on investment was 4%, which resulted in minimum prices of 0.84 kG for wind energy and 1.10 kG for photovoltaic solar energy. A sensitivity analysis was also conducted to assess the impact of variations in investment and operational costs. This article was authored by Marcella Leon, Javier Silva, Rodrigo Ortizoto, and others.


Thank you everyone. The title of this session is, it's the best way to deploy your application on OpenStack. Time has come, so let's get started. First of all, let us introduce ourselves. I'm Hidekatsu Nakamura. I have experience with creating web application for seven years. From SX, started to work with OpenStack as operator. Committed some parties through docs. I'm contributing to Murano project from Nittaka Cycle as a developer. He is Shu Muto. I'm Shu Muto, a web developer. I had customized SX and For some Horizon with our customer. Started to contribute to Horizon and dashboard plugins since last September. And now, our Magnum UI core reviewer and internationalization liaison for Magnum UI. This is a outline of this session. At first, we explain purpose of this session and we define actors for deploying application. After that, we explain each projects which may be used to deploy application on OpenStack. Grounds, Groudinit, Heat, Murano, community app catalog. For each project, we explain project outline, present cons for deploying application, show suite of applications. Finally, we summarize this session. Why we are here. I happen to attend community app catalog session at Tokyo Summit and have some questions. Why community app catalog treat free packaging? Nono packages, heat templates, gross images. Nono itself is application catalog service. Community means what? Third, there are other projects which deploy application such as SRAM, what's the difference? So, we are going to talk about which application is suitable for these services. We support these four actors need to deploy applications. First, application developer. They develop applications. Second, application distributor. They package and distribute applications that are developed by developers. Third, application operator. They get application from distributor and deploy them. Fourth, application user. They use application become available by operators. So, first week, we explain Grounds. Grounds is image service for managing virtual machine images and its metadata. User create virtual machine images and upload them. Community provides a guide how to obtain, create, and modify virtual machine images. Virtual machine image can be shared between projects. Virtual machine image is usually categorized by OSFAST. But application's point of view, application can be included in the image. So, what is Grounds for the actors? What the actor should do? Application distributor creates the image that includes applications. Application operator registers the image and don't have an instance from the image. Application user uses the application installed in the instance. The pros and cons are derived from the fact that the image includes the application beforehand. The advantages of using Grounds are, first, deploy speed. Application user can use the application in a very short time. Second, deploy reliability. Application is installed in the image, so application is certainly installed. On the other hand, these advantages, configure application is not possible in advance. For example, you cannot configure with a name or password before boot. This can be a security risk. As a result, application which has no need to configure for starting news is suitable for Grounds. For example, desktop applications such as deployment environment, editor, calculator, clock, auto viewer are suitable for Grounds. So next is cloud init. So what is cloud init? Cloud init is Python scripts. It handles early initialization of a cloud instance. For example, set local, set hostname, copy SSH public key, install and update packages. Use puppet, Chef server. Cloud init is not OpenStack project, but open source project. And cloud init is pre-installed in most cloud image. Cloud init can execute files which is sent from outside when booting. So what is cloud init for the actors? And what the actors should do? Application distributor creates an image that includes cloud init and configure it. Officially, most cloud init includes it. And configure is a feature. Application operator registers image and launch instance from the image. Application user uses application installed in the instance. So the advantages of using cloud init is unique configuration for each instance. Cloud init is installed in the image and can configure each instance according to each instance environment. On the other hand, disadvantages of using cloud init are first, only one instance configuration is possible. Second, configuration timing is limited. Cloud init works only when booting. Third, depending on the environment, it may be difficult to confirm status or to analyze errors. Since you need to see the output of Nova console log or directly see file inside of the instance. As a result, application which is enough for one instance and need to configure is suitable cloud init. For example, agent, agent for monitoring some resources in the instance or client of client server type software or small scale application for private use. Next is heat. Heat is template-based orchestration service for primarily managing infrastructure by executing appropriate OpenStack API codes. Template allows creation of most OpenStack resource types. Template is text file, which are readable and writeable by humans and can be managed by version control tools. Heat is well integrated with software configuration management tools such as Puppet, Ansible, and Chef. Software deployment resource type applies software configuration to one instance. Software config store software configuration, Shell script, Puppet, Ansible, and Chef. Nova server resource type means virtual machine instance. Software deployment resource type associates a config resource with one instance. Software configuration can be written in the template directly or can include a file by cat file function. But it's not enough for some cases. I'm Ansible fan, so I wanted to apply playbooks based on Ansible based practices, electric structure. Based practices creates role, group variable for each environment. I wanted to use that structure. Ansible playbook searches, roles, group bars, first bars, et cetera, from the directory it exists. So I must copy the playbook directory to the directory includes automatically generated playbook. But since this example is for image created by disk image builder specifying Ubuntu OS, the placement of playbook may be different. Anyway, this is fairly tricky, I think. I hope, smart way. So what's the heat for the actors, what the actors should do? Application distributor creates template files or creates software configuration files. Application operator gets the template files and run or gets a software configuration files, create template files, merge them and run. It's a template and run, heat finds a difference and executed. So that is the advantage of using heat in the following. Most open stack resources can be used by using serometer resource types, or scaling application can be achieved. Appet, Ansible and Chef are integrated. Application configuration without changing your resources. By writing your own resource plugins, you can use external services. On the other hand, the disadvantage of using heat in the following, application distributor or operator have to study how to write template files. But heat template language is declarative and writing with fairly easy. Application operator have to manage template files by their own tool. And as I said, using Ansible with rules. Group plus is, sorry, to use Ansible with rules needs tricky way. As a result, application which need to use various open stack resources is suitable for heat. Open stack resource types are, for example, neutral load balancer services, serometer, truth, truth is database as a service. Et cetera. Or large scale application, which is free country needs to scale up or down your resources. For example, data analyzer or search engine, I think. Next project is Rano. Rano provides UI and API to easily compose, deploy, run applications, and manage their life cycle, including instances. Even users are familiar with cloud environments choose from the available applications with intuitive UI. At first glance, you cannot take your eyes off web UI, but run power is beyond UI. Run application package structure is a following. Run application package is archived as GIF file. GIF file includes manifest file. Manifest file is an entry point for each run application. And it's very similar to the manifest of the archive. GIF file includes a picture used in the catalog. UI directory contains YAML file. Dynamically creates UI. Classes directory contains YAML files. Application class definition written in Rano programming language. This includes on instance creating security groups. Resource directory contains scripts directory. Script directory contains all scripts.sqt file required for an application deployment. And YAML file that describes the install process of application on the virtual machine. Rano programming language class is a core of Rano application. So, Rano programming language is represented by YAML and YACO. YACO stands for yet another query language. Rano programming language is object-oriented language. Rano PL class is a YAML dictionary with predefined key names. Example is shown on the right side. Instance, network, and security group are defined as class. Hot template is dynamically created and executed for creating infrastructure. Rano is application first. Rano defines application class for reusing. And this is WordPress example. WordPress class is defined on the left side. When deploying WordPress, instantiate a batch HTTP server class and call deploy method. So, application deployment. Tenant manages applications in the environment. Once Tenant deploys environment, the network subnet and router are created automatically. Network is customizable. So, Rano use case, application distributor creates Rano application packages and approaches them to Rano. Application operator selects application from UI or CLI and deploy it. So, pros and cons. The advantages of using Rano is the following. First, Rano provides means of creating application catalog UI. Second, as I explained, application is defined as a piece of component as class. Rano has plugin architecture. So, by creating plugin, application can connect to external services. Glass image and heat hot template can be packaged. So, you can manage glass image heat template as application. On the other hand, disadvantages of using Rano are first, since there are few documents, study Rano is deep learning curve and Rano programming language is actually programming language. Bugs are inevitable. So, which application is suitable for Rano? Systems composed of various applications is suitable for Rano. Various applications are, for example, web server, application server, memory cache, database, name, monitoring agent, identity provider, job management. Next is committee app catalog. Committee app catalog is committee-driven application catalog. Containing glass image, heat templates and Rano application package. Committee app catalogs website is appsopenstack.org. Horizon plugin is also available. So, use case, application distributor publishes glass images, heat templates or Rano application packages to the public location. It's shown in the website and dashboard. Application operator, browse it and select glass images, heat templates or Rano application packages from public website. Copy the name or URL to your open stack environment and deploy it. Use a can directly deploy through dashboard. So, browse and go on. Advantages of using committee app catalog is unified catalog of applications across glance, heat and Rano. These advantages are to publish applications, change source code of committee app catalog. Committee app catalog is not for private applications. And internet connect is a must. So, which applications suitable for committee app catalog? Basically, applications open to the public. It's suitable for committee app catalog. For example, test image developer want to use. Second, sample application. Third, commercial software to be advertised. So, conclusion. We saw four projects. But there are missing features. Some features are accomplished by integrating with other projects or writing programs. First, unified application catalog for both public and private. Second, application management. Data protection, monitoring, alert, metering. SMARG project application data protection as a service is targeting data protection. Monitoring, alert and metering may be achieved by Celerometer or Monasca. Depending on your environment. Third is development support. Test continuous integration. Integration with developing tools such as Eclipse. Integration with version control system. In terms of development support, SMARG is targeting from application characteristics by summarize project selection process. If application needs only one instance and need no configuration with grants, if need to configure grants plus cloud need. If application needs several instances, heat or Murano. If application is fairly simple or uses various open start projects, use heat. If not, use Murano. If you want application to open to the public, use communication catalog. That's all. Thank you. Any questions or comment? Several of your projects listed as a Khan study cost. Could you explain what that means? Okay, several pages. Study cost. Okay. This is a slide of heat, heat study cost. This, about heat? Ah, I see. We have to study mainly how to write template of heat template, hot template or mainly hot template. About Murano, how to packaging G5 or writing Murano programming language. I think mainly Murano programming language. Murano programming language, there are few documents now, so they steep learning curve. Any other questions? So, what idea is going to be used to execute whatever is passed through? Pardon? Sorry. Cloud init, are they executed as root or are they executed as a user specified by the implementation? The question was when cloud init runs, are things executed as the user or as root? The answer is that cloud init runs after root, because it basically happens early enough in the bootstrap process before anything else exists. Ah, you mean cloud init is executed by root or user? Which is? What user will be explained? Okay. That's all, thank you.


Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's The Cube at the HP Vertica Big Data Conference 2014. Brought to you by HP with your hosts, John Furrier and Dave Vellante. Okay, welcome back everyone. You are watching SiliconANGLE and Wikibon's The Cube. This is our flagship program where we go out to the events and extract the Silicon Manoys. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, your host. And our next guest is Raj Yakali, Director of Data Infrastructure at Ed Marketplace here at Live in Boston, Massachusetts for the HP Big Data Conference where all the experts are gathered and talking about what's going on in the industry from a technology standpoint, but also how it's changing the marketplace in terms of creating new products, new value. Raj, welcome to The Cube. Thank you. So I got to ask you, what's the biggest thing that you're seeing in the marketplace right now from infrastructure, software, cloud, mobile, social, big data certainly becoming a big conversation. Anyone who uses Facebook or any social network or mobile knows that their data is being used in some capacity to create a better product experience. Some cases get a good discount on stuff. What is driving all this? Is it really big data? What's the big technology? I think the two things are coming together. One, the technology space is converging in itself where the constraints that we used to have in the past they're not there anymore or the new constraints are coming up which is like the storage and the memory area sectors with respect to the technology they're converging together and that is making us to do more than what we used to do with less. And at the same time, the user requirements we're able to go beyond the past user requirements the new user requirements are coming in which are like for example, we were doing the analytics for a while and then now we are doing the predictive analytics and very soon we are thinking about the prescriptive analytics which is beyond the user is asking for. Prescriptive or predictive? Prescriptive, next level of the predictive, that's what. Yeah, break the difference down, that's really good. This is a nuance but for the data geeks it's kind of like just roll off their tongue. Prescriptive, describe the difference between predictive analytics and prescriptive analytics because these are two hot areas right now where everyone's looking at it from across the board. Customer service, manufacturing, sales, both are relevant. Talk about the difference between the two. So when you talk about the predictive analytics you're actually predicting something based upon what you have, currently based upon previous patterns and what not. And when it comes to the prescriptive analytics you're actually following, you're utilizing all the current content that you have on the user base or the requirements but at the same time you're actually anticipating what is that the user might need at a later stage. Even before they ask or even before they even come to you. So does one use more collective intelligence than the other? Or is it more of a data set discussion? It's a layer above the current level of intelligence. I was talking to a data scientist when we were talking about Costco and you walk into front door Costco and I'm in their demographic so when I go in all I see is big screen TVs and I say to myself I want one because when I walk in all I see is really low priced big screen TVs I want one. So is that prescriptive or predictive analyst where they kind of know my, they create product placement for me without even knowing what I might want? So if you go for a fine grain line between, the thin line between the predictive and prescriptive is like the factors that you know currently about the user. The factors that you do not know currently about that user but you can actually anticipate those new factors that might be created. Can you give an example? Like for example on the predictive analytics today for example if we take the ad marketplace as a place where I actually work for. In the ad marketplace user is searching for a certain keyword or saying okay I want to do this.  He's telling us very clearly that this is what I want. Now I'm predicting okay he wants to buy a red wine. What kind of the red wine is he trying to buy? So I have certain factors already with me and using that I'm actually trying to think about what is he asking for and I'm predicting his user intent. The user intent I'm predicting on. Based on what is told. Is that one core screwdriver or some other accessory kind of thing? Do I need to get him the wine from Napa Valley? The red wine, which kind of red wine? Is it Napa Valley red wine or is it like Chile Cabriolet Sauvignon or something like that? That's where I'm actually predicting. But very closely related. Now again based upon the wine consumption that he is having and depending on the kinds of searches that he's doing I'm thinking about totally unrelated. Like okay is he trying to, is it the time for him to buy an insurance? Or is it the time for him to actually check out his wine consumption might be going up or down? Is it time to go for a doctor checkup? Or is it like, oh his health is going to be much better than it used to be because he's consuming the red wine. So do I have to, is it the time that he needs to buy a new pair of sneakers so that he can actually go jog around and do it? That's prescriptive. That's prescriptive. So are they both prescriptive? So being able to prescribe the type of wine okay as part of it and then there are ancillary outcomes. So I'm interested in the technology behind that because John my wife will go out and she'll always say I want this red wine and I want a peanut wine, I want it to be berry and she'll describe it and some bartenders can't do it or waiters and other ones this is one waiter gets it every time. Oh I get the wine for you. So how are you able to replicate that in technology? One, we actually capture a lot of information with respect to the keywords or the user content and we create the dictionaries out of all this when it comes to the user searches and our marketplace. We have this keyword based searches, keyword based ads serving and at the same time we have this category based ads serving and we also try to figure it out based upon the geospatial analysis and also the kind of traffic source that they're coming from when they ask us about okay provide me this kind of service. So we're actually analyzing all these factors that come together and that's what we combine all these factors together and try to provide them the best thing that would cater to their needs. So okay, so I understand that. And the technology how it comes together is that the big data. We actually get almost half a billion requests per day and along with that there's like two terabytes of data per hour that is being generated as a result of these requests and with all this data coming together now we have to perform the analytics on top of this. So Vertica has one of the technologies that provides us the analytical capabilities to mine these data sets and along with that the new HDFS, Hadoop and all these ecosystems put together and the AWS for the processing computing powers. Everything comes together and this technology plays a big role in analyzing all these data sets and providing the customer with right set of user intent. And you've got to do that. I'll invoke the real time phrase but you've got to do it in real time before the customer goes away. That's what I would consider real time. Yes. Fair enough? Yes. So are you bringing in analytical and transaction systems to be able to do that and allow machines to make decisions before humans can because you can't do it in human time. That's too slow. That's right. So we have two products that we have recently innovated and created in our system which is a BitSmart. What it does is like it performs the price matching and at the same time it's a predictive algorithm system that actually crunches through all these data sets and actually takes into the factor all the variables that are in place to make the decision quickly and suitable to user intent at the speed of light so that we can cater to the needs of the customer in the real time. And on top of that there is an analytic piece of it that actually supports marketers. We have this heavy data savvy marketers, largest data savvy marketers on our user base and they want to have the fine grain visibility into how they are spending their ad money and the ROI towards the ad spends. So we provide all that through with the advertiser 3D and the BitSmart and it utilizes the real time by whenever the click data comes into our system our network that click data is being directly streamed into a Vertica. That provides us the real time capabilities of analyzing all the data through so that our marketers are able to see that in the real time as to what is happening with the clicks and the requests that are coming in from the user base. So the database is Vertica, not an in memory database. We, the pricing and matching is supported by our in memory database. We have an in memory database as well that supports the pricing and matching and then the analytics is being supported by our analytical database which is Vertica. Okay, and the storage is not spinning or is it, right? Or is it flash? Is it, so it's in memory, you got? It's a flash and SSD combinations and to certain data sets we also have the storage as a whole. The cold storage. Cold storage that we don't need the real time insights from. So we have this layered data sets. There are certain data sets that you want the real time insights. So you're essentially competing with Google in a way, right?  We compliment Google's ecosystem. The Google actually has a search engine on their back. So it actually, they take up all that part. And beyond Google and Yahoo Bing, we are the largest search content marketplace. So what we do is we compliment their offers when the ad marketers go on to the Google and so and they are not able to meet their requirements just by the Google. They actually reach out to the ad marketplace and they actually extend their user base and they get new user base that is not available or supported by Google's platform or the Yahoo Bing platforms. And that gets realized because of the search market that is fractured between all these technologies and the tool sets and everything. And now with the mobile space coming into play, the search is everywhere, even inside the apps. There are like 100 apps in our mobile phone or so and each app provides a search mechanism. So all that fragmented search is not on the Google now. It's not on Apple or it's not on the Yahoo Bing or anything. So this is the place we actually come into play where we connect all this fragmented work. This is the new user experience.  Google's great for web 1.0, maybe 2.0 but now the new user experience is mobile in these new environments. So the query is what they're searching for is much more, less about static content but very contextual based app based. So I got to ask you the next question which is the holy grail right now is along the lines of this predictive prescriptive algorithms and everyone's talking social sales. Oh funnel the data in and we'll trap them into a funnel. We'll identify who the right person is at the right time to sell them a product to give them some value. Very hard technical problem. Share your insights on that whole paradigm. Looking at all this data from either Twitter, social data, LinkedIn, Facebook. I see Facebook's doing very well with their business based on social data. But ultimately it's about matching the exact context. Certainly we were talking about how bad Facebook's retargeting is in an earlier segment and how it's just I go to one website just to look at something now I've seen that ad in Facebook all day long and they say I can't get rid of it. That's one thing that actually differentiates us from any of the other players on the market is we have the user search intent. User is asking us to provide them with certain service. They are telling us what to give them. Only thing is we make it much more simpler by actually doing much more analysis on top of that and provide them with the app. So they know what they want but they don't know all the details that go into what it means because they have to take into consideration of the geo, they have to take into consideration of the market space and the industry, the products that are available. So all that analysis and all those dimensions we actually crunch it through and provide it to the user space. And when we talk about the social space and all those things over there, you have no connection point as to what the user is asking, the user is not asking for anything. You're actually assuming on top of what the user activity is. Based upon the user activity, we are assuming that oh, they might want this, they might want this. So that is a tough problem to know. There's a startup out there that's funded by Sequoia Capital called Mintigo which is doing some really interesting social sales. They use a lot of big data techniques to give customers who use the sales force of the world just a better understanding of their prospects. And it seems like a very hard problem. What's your take on that whole big data application? Because it's very similar to what you're talking about. It's ads in a way, but it's more native to the user. So does the system have the user, do they track and record user activity? No, it's all the user target name and then they aggregate other data source data and try to match the two. So they have maybe your name or Twitter handle or maybe not, just your name and email address and then look at the web and all the social signals and then identify whether you're ready to buy that product. So very interesting paradigm because there's no touch points other than data. So because there are no touch points, it becomes much harder problem. Now they have to create some touch point right there. That creating the touch point is where the big data and all these appliances and everything comes together because it requires a lot of processing power. It requires a lot of time and energy. But with Cloud you can spin up some basically a mini supercomputer. Yes, but that's the complexity that comes with it. It's Cloud provides the processing power and then there is a storage and also your ingrown homegrown mechanics that have to come together along with it. It's going to come right back down to the database problem. So I'm going to go right there. So let's go back to the database. So we were just talking earlier with the VP of engineering here at Vertica. You know, does the database actually go away? Does it get abstracted away at some point in the future where the decision from the application and or the data, if the thesis is put smarts in the data then you should essentially not have to worry about where to store it technically. Where in the past it's been, what's my data schema look like database that will project the syntax into what I can do. So the question is I want to get your take on this kind of interesting time to have this conversation in our industry because you can actually abstract away the database. It shouldn't have to be your only limitation is based on the database. What's your take on that conversation? Is it a good time to have that? Are people actually doing that? Yeah, people are already doing it. Almost all the social space is about no schema, schema less and all that, which means that if you are trying to conform that into the database or schema and all that, which becomes harder to conform, conform all the data sets into the database. And so they were trying to actually get the extract value out of that system, out of the data set even before you insert it into the data set. That's where the whole HP flex zone and everything comes together. You know the interesting thing about things like Spark for instance, David and I were just talking about Spark which came out of Berkeley. I think Databricks, one of those companies up there is that in memory has become a huge deal. Open source obviously is driving it. But the notion of real time has changed the game, right? So we're talking about retargeting. How much does real time make it more difficult and complicated for these kinds of channels to provide real time contextual information to the user at any given time that would match them for. It's the business context. Now if the business has to survive the competition or so the real time really makes the impact. And being able to serve the needs of the customer in the real time and if you are to be in the competition you have to be aggressive and forefront and technology really plays a role at that point and the Spark in memory and even the SSDs and the convergence of the storage and the memory it's all coming together towards providing the real time insights into this piece. It's all about the feedback loop. So you have this feedback loop now you have to tighten it and closer that loop as well because your insights has to be much faster as well because it spurs the innovation later on. If you want the feedback loop is longer then the innovation takes much longer. If the feedback loop is shorter and tightened out your innovation is right on spot on and much faster. So you're talking about timetable now on it's a syncing up timetable to actual data acquisition and analysis, right? Yes. So you don't want to mismatch the cycles. No you don't. You want to really try to be able to match it up together. Can you give an example of how you've done that one time like what that means in context if you didn't do it? Give an example of the benefits of matching up these cycles. Would you mind replacing the cycles? So you mentioned that, okay, time to get the data and then time to analyze it and turn that around if it's longer versus that, what's that?  For example at the ad market place when the user searches for the data set and when the user searches for a certain phrase saying flowers in Chelsea. Now I have to provide him the ad within like some milliseconds if there is, if we don't provide that service with an ad to the user within some milliseconds he's actually getting away from our site right there. He won't be staying there much longer. So now the time cycles that are required for the data that is coming in and you are crunching your data dictionaries that you are captured and you are going around for all the feeds and everything together that has to be much faster. And in order to provide it in the sub-milli-seconds the rest of the pieces in the chain have to be much faster as well. And now that's where the whole in-memory and the storage comes into play which helps us to churn these data sets and get that inside. I want you to share with the folks out there the difference between boring in the cloud, DevOps versus not boring in the cloud legacy technology. And this is more of a broader question. He was seeing successes out there like Snapchat, Uber. He's been great examples of companies that have come out of nowhere and just created billions of dollars of wealth because of doing things differently. Fast, agile, I mean Drop Can was an example. We interviewed the founder at AWS Summit and sold for half a billion dollars to Google with the Nest team. It was a webcam connected to the cloud. Big deal, half a billion, but what he did was he used the cloud to innovate on the storage piece of the value chain which creates significant value for him. This is a whole nother mindset. I call that born in the cloud. So explain to the folks out there who are watching, there's been born in the cloud mentality and non-born in the cloud mentality. Born in the cloud mentality is be ready for the failure from the system point of view, but at the same time now they're trying to utilize these resources. Even though it seems like there are vast amount of resources, there is a cost consideration that comes along with all these resources that are available. So they have to really think about how to do more with less, even though they are born in the cloud. So that is one mentality when it comes to the legacy environment also. Yeah, you have those resources for granted, but at the same time while this agile mentality is coming in, it's changing both sides of the world. The born in the cloud, they already come with the agile mentality and the DevOps mode and the same thing. And the legacy pieces are actually very quickly catching up with same methodologies. So now even if they have the hardware and the infrastructure in premise. You mentioned the converging infrastructure. You know, the other thing that was talked about this week was BuzzFeed's $50 million financing at an $850 million valuation. And what that really means is that's basically a social media list post company, top 10 reasons to do something. It has generated so much traffic because of the channels that they distribute the content in. Now making a serious run at the New York Times, these big publications, that's an example of this new model of full stack kind of company. So this notion of integrating silos together is an interesting DevOps problem. Dave, we were talking about this earlier. It's like the way people rethink these new business models is they say, hey, you know what, I'm just going to do it differently. I can optimize in a vertical or full stack basis and create value. Well, a lot of people are trying to figure out, okay, you know, there's a share shift going on, right? Amazon's growing at 60, 70% a year. It's going to be two, five billion in revenue this year. You know, there aren't a lot of enterprise IT companies doing that. So people are saying, okay, is that the new model? Many people believe yes, it is. But at the same time, you got HP, IBM, EMC, VMware, Cisco saying, well, we can replicate born in the cloud on premise. And we have a more complex problem because we have application portfolios that are very diverse. The average age of an enterprise application is 19 years, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So people are trying to figure out, us included, how that's going to shake out what's your opinion? You know, as a practitioner in that world. It's a cycle of innovation. There are two factors that are coming together. The one is user requirements and user base that you have with your product. And the other side of the piece is there is that fragmentation that is happening as new companies are born and the new methodologies. There is also the repetition of that same work happening at all these companies that are out there. So what AWS is doing is, AWS and the whole Amazon and the whole thing is, they're capitalizing on that repetition of the process that is occurring across all the ecosystem. What they're saying is, come to me, you will be, we will provide you with all the API and you will be able to use it exactly alike and we can provide you the platform. So that is one side of the picture where the convergence is coming together and all these best practices and the different companies are coming together. And the other side of the picture is, you have a customer base and you have a user base. By going to the AWS, you either have to go with a specific infrastructure, specific instances and specific memory or so, which is almost equivalent to your hardware internally because it's a reserved instances versus not. So you have to cater to your user base requirements. There are certain user base requirements that within your use cases that may not be able to cater when you are in the public space. So you are going for average performance. There is a possibility of that. So that, in which and what cycle of the growth phase you are in that may dictate or that may guide towards whether you want to be in the public space or even in your own space or not. And what is that you want to get out of that? But now I think you hit on it, repetition of the process. Amazon essentially is able to package that process in their marginal economics of deploying infrastructure incrementally goes to zero compared to doing it every time. That's right. Whether you call out a third party or whomever, you would think conceptually that over the next 10 years the Amazon way overwhelms the traditional way. Why would it not? If we want, that is a very good question, but if you take a step back and try to analyze that same aspect, the user search as it was before. So you have this created content on your publisher space and now it is fragmented out into the web space again. But now it is, usually before it was fragmented in this you created content, now it is fragmented within the mobile space. So you have a totally different ecosystem created with it. But it has followed the same cycle. Now it comes to this technology and the proliferation and as well as the consolidation. Yes, it is evolving. Now there are new set of challenges that are going to come in together, which is yeah, now that AWS is a solution for the repetition that is occurring in the system and now we are getting in there. Now there is a new level of user requirements that are coming to come, they are going to come into picture where there is again that fragmentation. You provide the average kind of service when you are in the public space because you have, you may get similar service as your neighbor is getting. Now that may be okay, but that may not be okay. When it is not okay, now you are again coming back. It goes to a certain extent and then beyond that certain extent if you are growing and growing and growing and beyond, there are internal inherent challenges that needs to be taken care of either by Amazon or even by the customer who is on Amazon. So that incremental challenges are they able to align those incremental challenges with the solutions that are provided by the provider? If they can provide it, yes, but then again as the scale of that system goes larger and larger, they won't be able to cater to each and every personal need or each and every organizational need on this big ecosystem. So that's where it again comes back. But it just, but there is an innovation space that gets created at that point where you are not really tackling the similar problem but you are tackling a different set of problems. Right, right, and you've got the scale to do it. Yes. Raj, thanks so much for coming on the queue. Raj, Jackalee, Data Architect. I think I just followed you on Twitter. You Raj underscore architect on Twitter. Okay, I just followed you. Love to get you involved more in the conversations. This is really something that we're passionate about if you're available. We'll ping you on Twitter. We'll do some crowd chats if you're cool. We're going to do a predictive analytics chat this Friday. This is an area where all the innovation is happening. Certainly Data Science is well documented. Wall Street Journal had a great article this past week on Data Science, but where the action is really going is really more programming, computer science and really good stuff happening around data. I think what you're doing is really the center of it. Congratulations, great to have you here on theCUBE. To hear from the experts, the tech athletes, this is theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante. Go to crowdchat.net slash hpbigdata2014 and join the conversation. We're having a crowd chat right now. That's our new engagement container. Watch that. We'll be right back after the short break and we'll take questions from Twitter on our next guest. Take care.