just begins to melt slightly before your eyes. Well, see, whatever, because if I get it, especially if I get a thumbnail done like a week ahead of time and I set everything with all the description titles and everything. So all I have to do is hit go live once we're in a call. I'm like, nah, something's going to happen. Lightning or like, well, I mean, that happened to me yesterday. I just wanted to play call of duty and stream and then my internet just sporadically started cutting out.  So that was actually having a walk the other night. And it was it was one of the very hot nights. And there was there was three hits of lightning with no sound very near. And it was like creepy as hell, three hits of lightning and no sound. Yeah, I couldn't. There was nothing to listen to. There was no like it was just it was just the flash. And there was only one of them that I saw that the actual lightning for it. I was just like, geez, watch out for the tripods, man. Well, the funny thing was that once I didn't hear lightning for ages then, but then I heard this huge like, you know, like the sound of of someone moving a cupboard, but that but cranked up to like a galactic level just all around me coming from like the sky. And I was just like, God's move into cupboard. That actually sounds pretty terrifying. Well, that's right. Yeah, I was thinking of myself like that. You could put this in meteor in some way. It'd be creepy just because it's such a bizarre sound to have on that scale. You have it be a horror movie called The Lightning Man. He's a man who travels by lightning or something. OK, but how does the cupboard fit into this? I need like, well, OK, hit. OK, so here's the pitch. So a man was moving his cupboard and then it fell over and crushed him. And now he is lightning man and it's kind of weird. So it doesn't work properly.  Oh, yeah. Better origin story than Captain Marvel hit. Well, you know, I did stuff. I would argue that it is again. Yeah, I shot an engine and now I have space. She was covered in like acidic goo to enter here rather being struck by lightning while falling under a cupboard or something. I don't know. I feel like that's what makes sense. There you go. Yeah. And then he's like just he lives in the cloud struck by lightning while under a cupboard, thus lives in the clouds. It's like, don't question it. I like the idea that I write just like, yeah, but if you give them that the the work itself is very deep, the character work, everything about it. It's just so good. That bit. Yeah, it's a bit weird. Remember, if you have if you have a couple of really cool shots and really good special effects and that's all it takes. Oh, man. Yeah, to be like a work of art now, describing every mini series that exists in the past like two, three years. I just, yeah, have we talked about that? I like I feel like we haven't because it's not even it feels like it's not even TV shows anymore because the funny one with devs that me and Rags is slowly getting through over the next few decades. I was like season one. So, you know, how many seasons are going to be? And Jay was like, oh, it's just the one. I was like, it's another mini series. I was like, there's so many mini series now. It's like one season one and done, which is not something I'm against, by the way. Yeah, it's just strange how much they've popped up compared to how TV shows and movies were like definitively separate.  So many series. Maybe that's kind of like the magic number. We're sort of figuring out. Well, it always depends on what kind of content you've got to give out, right? Like how much you got to say do. Like a mini series is probably approaching what a video game is as on its own, I guess.  Well, think about like Harry Potter. That could have been like eight seasons of TV, probably, right? You could just rejig it all. Yeah, you probably could stand to do. Yeah, eight seasons of that. Dare I say it may have benefited from that actually because the school year would feel a lot more natural over a season than it does over one movie, right? Well, here's an interesting thing. I mean, we know that they're making a Lord of the Rings show on Amazon, but none of us want that to the dread of everyone. But you think that that would work well as a mini series? Well, not a mini series, but, you know, three or four seasons. Well, even longer than that, really. So you talk about like the Peter Jackson ones now being converted into seasons instead of like, well, I guess the thing is like I'm very against making a new one because I think that it's basically like the greatest it could have been. Yeah. But I guess if you wanted to adapt the books, you could probably make it into like a few seasons of TV. I think so. It could work. I just don't we don't need to touch them. They're just so good. You know, they just they nailed it. Go do something else. As as red love media point now is just like remake stuff that's either okay or sucks. Do that because then we can get better. I'm reading chat now and I feel like Barton that episode of the Simpsons when he had the I didn't do it catchphrase and then kind of no Brian and everybody just like just say the line. So the issue is it's it's it's exploded since you were lost on eFab. So I know it has keep hearing about it. It's it's it's kind of hard to explain. It's just the way you say no. That's the beam. That's it. Can't help it. It's my accent. I don't think they want you to help it. I think they like it. Oh wait, I just got it. I just said it. This is what I mean. No, it's impossible to not say no. Yeah, someone just say the line. I say the yes man. Then you see me just like cocked down in the corner of my room just rocking back and forth. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. They only like me for my nose. I like I told him do you remember your reaction to the finale of Batwoman? Yeah, I do. You say many a door. It was a bit of an overload. My brain almost couldn't handle it.  So much Batwoman to come eFab chat. Be excited. Be well all of the things. I mean, it depends because I'm not sure how excited I am because like I'm kind of dreading season two legitimately. Oh, no, I meant how a coverage of it, which is, you know, fun.  But season two is going to be painful. And they just lose their lead actress. Yes, they did. So they have to have is it the Batwoman role? Like they need a new Batwoman of all the rules to lose. Well, that sounds like a disaster. The Queen herself. Yeah, they're going to be rewriting it. So a new girl just arrives and becomes Batwoman. And I'm sure they'll do it in one episode and it's going to be the most jarring and funny thing ever. Batwoman is barely serialized. Like it feels like it doesn't take advantage of the fact that it's TV show at all. Like things happen so quickly and I've got so many episodes that they could do. But we could still point out that it plot. It was either about Mouse and Alice or it was about some random who walks into Gotham that week to be a bad guy, which they didn't even account for like other shows did.  Yeah. And then freak of the week format. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.  I remember because I saw the first few episodes of the CW flash what happens without it's whatever gave him his powers gave a bunch of other people other powers, right? Well, because these metahumans so would have been that there were a bunch of other metahumans. What's a metahumans? So in the DC continuity, metahumans is basically the easiest way to describe it is in Marvel. There's mutants and then there's human mutate and human mutate just describes anybody who has superpowers who isn't a mutant. That's basically what a metahuman is. It's just somebody who got powers.  But like Wonder Woman and Superman aren't because they're like not human strictly. So that's basically what it is. But yeah, Batwoman was just like, I don't know. They just showed up these weird people. You just had Magpie just show up to to steal some things with her exploding. What was it? What she had? She had a she replaced Martha Wade's necklace with an explosive or series of explosives. Yeah, the explosives were specifically the ink. It was the ink that was explosive because remember she had the little plastic birds, but they were painted in the explosive right and she could throw them and they explode. Yeah, they would explode and annoy people. Then you had the executioner who's a guy who would would would herd people into puddles and then electrocute them and then electrocute them. That was that was something else. Who else?  We had the judgment. We had the judge man. You don't have the executioner. Remember the executioner? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, we had the girl who nearly killed everybody on the train that got right makeup makeup. Oh, yeah, I was thinking of the makeup girl. So that's another girl. What was the one? Let's see. Nice to remember. She just it was in the episode. You just published the one who yeah, the makeup. That's what I meant by the makeup girl. She hates makeup or whatever, right? I wonder what Gotham was like before. There was some mass to vigilante with magic plot armor powers to just stop all these horrible people. Well, if you're so maybe I kind of lied there, actually, they do kind of try to address it. They're like the fact that she's around is attracting evil men's to the to Gotham's. They think Batman is back. Do you remember saying that? Yeah, that's how they tried to explain it. Dumb. That's like saying the more police there are, the more people are going to try to go out and commit crimes just to show them, you know. It's a very weird motivation. It's like the only one who makes sense with his hush because he was he hated Batman. So he wanted to find a personal. Yeah, Vendetta against that person.  I would do it specifically at the period between Batman leaving and another Batman character arriving. I would do it in that.  Of like three years. Yeah, clearly. I mean, where's the honor in that? Yeah, you don't have to be too easy. Jewels undefended. And the crows are so incompetent and terrible. I mean, it's just not a challenge really. What a wonderful show. Also, welcome to EFAP 92, everybody. That was that was the preamble, I guess. Talk about one. That woman. Well, welcome to brand new guest, John CJG. Is that what? Wait, do you want to go by that? Do you want to go by anything else? I don't know. I'm assuming it's John is cool. Just just John is fine. Sweet. Totally. Welcome. How do you do? Thank you very much. I'm doing great. I just I want to start by apologizing to you guys and your audience for being a no show the first time we tried to get this organized. I read the time zone wrong and it was my bad. I felt like trash when I felt the mistake I made. So very sorry. And I'm really happy to be here that you decided to have me on in spite of that. So the time zone thing is really confusing for all of us because not only do you have it so that all three of the people you're talking to right now live in different time zones, but they also change for summer. So it starts to get like right, which hours is everybody actually on which is funny because all my European friends is really easy because they're within, you know, one or two hours of every time.  So is it like midnight? What's going on? Yeah, it's like quarter past one for me in the afternoon. It feels like, yeah, because everybody's in totally it's like every corner of the planet. Yep. 9 p.m. for me. Nice. It's a nice time for me. It's nice and normal-ish. It won't be by the time of the end of this podcast. I'm pretty sure. But yeah, we bro. We we heard, I think through super chats, someone said that it was mentioned to you in some way shape or form and that you'd be on board.  Because it's like, you're the guy I've always known as the maker of the machinima that funnily enough. I don't know. I don't know if this means anything to anybody in any way, but I watched all of Red vs. Blue and I thought it was okay, but I watched I'll be the chief and I loved it. Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, I don't mind Red vs. Blue either. I've actually I've worked with those guys. I went to their they had a studio in Texas. That was the guy I went over there for a few days. Yeah, that was one of them. Another one was a sketch about piracy. That I wrote they wrote the Gary Busy one. I wrote the one about piracy and I had a great time working with those guys. They're really funny. I didn't actually they wrote the Gary Busy sketch and I didn't get the joke at first. I was just like, is that it? They think I'm Gary Busy. Like I don't look anything like I'm like I just I didn't see the humor in it. But then in the process of making it and once I saw it, I'll cut together. I thought it was really funny. So, yeah, they're great improv guys. Like they make a lot of stuff on the fly. Yeah. So, yeah, this is pretty pretty free for them. But I mean, you're pretty much going to be the object of many, many questions to it. I'll try and catch what I can if if someone left in chat for different things.  You've probably been asked this before. You've probably answered it on different things. But how did I be in the chief guest started? Uh, so, um, I have been, I mean, I've been gaming my whole life pretty much. And, uh, I was way. I didn't really get into online gaming until like console broadband started being a thing. Actually, I my first experience with playing online on consoles was with Dreamcast via dial-up because Sega didn't have the foresight to launch the Dreamcast with a broadband connection. Um, and so Xbox came out and, uh, I started an Xbox live account and digital fear was what I came up with in a rush to, uh, to just get on and start playing.  Yeah, exactly.  And I didn't, I didn't think that far ahead.  And that ended up sticking. I mean, it's in the link for like my channel, you know, my, my username on YouTube. So that's what people search for when they're looking for me. And, uh, so I played a return to Castle Wolfenstein Tides of War for Xbox. I was way into that. And then Halo, Halo combat evolved didn't have Xbox live, of course, but then Halo 2 came out and I was way into that. And then, um, a game called Crackdown came out for Xbox 360. I remember that. And that, yeah. And it came with access to the Halo 3 multiplayer beta. So once the beta became active, you'd be able to access it through the crackdown main menu. And, uh, so I played, so playing Halo 2, um, I became really immersed in like that culture, not, not just Halo 2, but, uh, Castle Wolfenstein before that where there was a lot of trash talk. Yeah. Like broadband, uh, console gaming was in its infancy at this point. And, and, uh, I really dug the whole trash talk thing.  And, uh, yeah, it's hilarious. Yeah.  Like when you, you bring people together, um, in an online space where everyone's anonymous, nobody's face to face. And, um, it's in a hyper competitive environment where people are constantly getting endorphin spikes in their brains or depletions in endorphins when they're like losing, right? And they get, they're prone to anger. And because they don't, there's no face to face repercussions for anything that people say. People are much more, there's no filter, right?  And, uh, that part of online gaming is always really fascinated me. And, uh, I don't want that culture to go away. And I'm kind of worried about what, what's yeah, like nowadays it's kind of getting, it's almost like it's been neutered. A lot of systems are going to be put in place to prevent and destroy it, right? Which yes, most people consider that a plus or at least they'd be like, ah, see, but it's nice now. I feel like it's people who haven't been playing video games for a long time because I remember playing modern warfare to, you know, like damn 10 years ago, basically at this point. Well, I remember that's the classic one that everyone remembers is like modern warfare to the ultimate Xbox live trash talking.   I shouldn't do that. Oh, you guys remember getting voice messages for like people? You just be like, yeah, I do. 1v1 me on rust intervention only.  Very well. Yeah, I have I'll accept your. Right. So I was so I'm reading stuff now. Currently about like online the online gaming sphere being an inherently toxic place that needs to be moderated and policed and there's talks about using artificial intelligence systems to detect and censor speech and also or to get rid of voice chat entirely. I've heard that being proposed and I just I think that's a step in the wrong direction like if like what I said before the conditions of online gaming where everyone's anonymous and everyone's in a competitive environment people are going to say hateful stuff and I just think stepping in and trying to police what everybody is saying is not the way to go like I think if anyone's offended they can just mute their fucking you know just mute whoever it is you don't want to hear from and it's as easy as that but there's a bunch of people who are just like oh oh I'm so offended by what I'm hearing right now it's like turn off your console or mute people like what's the fucking problem not like I'm not naming dropping it for any other reason than it was it was here that may be aware that this is a problem but like when I need to talk easy was like there are people online who tell women to go and kill themselves in video games and we're being like what no they tell everyone to do that exactly man included I mean it's not a gender specific thing right it's like the most standard thing that you get sent to you go kill yourself and you know it's getting to the point now it's like did you just suggest that I commit suicide that is disgusting and it's like the person who said is probably like wait what okay I better to think of how pure this place was before I a woman came here but yeah dynamics certainly changed since those days like people are much more clean these days really hunt dude you you called that shit with tosses didn't you it's almost the exact same shit and it failed just as miserably but hey yeah it's really great about the Xbox live stuff and online gaming and kind of you know having your metal tested and having your your skin tempered and all that sort of thing is that it's it's kind of the ideal environment in which to have that happen because you can leave whenever you want there's no obligation to continue you can mute and block whoever you want no one can actually hurt you in any real way it's the safest most oddly clinical sort of way to to sort of get used to that sort of thing and I wouldn't want to take that away from young people because when you go in the real world and people you know talk shit to your face and yell at you and all that stuff there's always like the threat that they could actually do something and sometimes you can't just walk away and stuff like that so online gaming is really a great like a microcosm but it's a good way to show the real world yeah yeah I think I agree with that yeah people are pricks people can really be pricks in real life but it just be ready that's all yeah and you really get no filter when it comes to online gaming just the nature of it people are just gonna say whatever hateful shit is on their mind and you know hate is always going to be a part of human existence no matter what you try to do you wouldn't have humans without hate right that's kind of how it works exactly there's a there's it's like a it's a Dallas thing of like it's it's an essential half of existence that you're not going to be able to police out of existence and just just leave it alone is my is my position but but anyway it was all it was that whole is that volatility that I found really funny and fascinating and it was what informed the Master Chief character for me in RV in the chief right because I wanted to create a character that kind of embodied all of that hatred and stupidity that is cool that's what he would that's what all this traits sort of derive from in there yeah yeah so I was playing the Halo 3 beta right and then at the time I had this Master Chief action figure that I can't remember my mom might have bought it for me or something and and at the same time I also happen to be playing around with like text-to-speech synthesizers and for some reason coming together yeah exactly like it and it was also it was a Microsoft voice and like the reason I was toying around with Microsoft Sam in particular is because of how primitive it sounded like it's a very dated speech engine and so I would do like the typical kid thing of typing swear words into it and hearing it said back to me and I got a big kick out of that I think everybody tried that once they found out it was really easy to do yeah you just type the most heinous shit into the text field and then just hear it played back I got a childish kick out of that so I eventually it popped in my head like what if I put that on a character oh what if it was you know the Master Chief thing came to life and started saying that shit and I was a big fan of like toy story so like that that was that was a factor in the creation of it as well and so I put the two together and I wanted to I wanted to this was before like the company Machinima that I became affiliated with them this is just I had a YouTube account and I thought I'll just make something stupid and upload it and see what happens you know just as a hobby you know I just thought it was funny and so I had a I had a tape cam quarter at the time and I just recorded the action figure with the controller in his lap and then I wrote a little script and then had chief say those things and intercut it with like Halo 3 beta gameplay and he just characterized all the hostility that I was observing on the you know playing online and it was a way of satirizing it you know and also I was taking that trick let iconic Master Chief character and kind of flipping yes not what anyone would expect the personality of Master Chief to be like at all this is like what's going on right exactly it's like the exact opposite right it's just so petty and childish and crude and yeah so I created this video called Master Chief sucks at Halo that was about that was in 2008 maybe think I created my channel in 2006 and then I uploaded that in 2007 or eight I can't remember and it it got it went viral I got really really lucky with that and it got like millions of hits on YouTube and I made another one Master Chief sucks at Halo 2 where he literally plays Halo 2 instead of the Halo 3 beta and and then I made a third one but it was between the second and the third one that I was approached by machinima the company right who was just starting out at the time oh man that's a whole journey in that machinima oh yeah yeah that's a whole thing and so they were they were looking for content creators at the time they're a very small team the very very talented creative people and I can't really say the same about the management but their creative team at the time there's really solid people working there but not very many it was like a team of three or four or five people and then I was I became one of their content creators and I signed a contract with them and I think the original deal was that I would get paid like five dollars per thousand views or something like that but I ended up doing so well that it would have bankrupted them if we kept going with that contract so luckily for them they had the foresight to put in a clause saying that they could terminate the agreement at any time and so they revoked it and wrote up a new one and that doesn't sound fun no no and I was I was pretty young at the time I mean I wasn't that young I was in my 20s so I can't unfortunately I can't fall back on saying that I was a stupid teenager because I wasn't a teenager at the time I should have probably should have known better at that age but it will happen so fast that right I imagine exactly I was naive to all this I mean I just I just graduated from school and I was just a very homely kind of you know just making stupid shit in my bedroom and and this all seemed like a huge thing to me you know it's like wow a company in LA wants to work with me that's so that's so awesome like I'll yeah I'll do whatever whatever contract you give me I'll sign it like like anybody in in like the late 2000s if they were on the internet and a big company again in LA we're like oh here's money so like you know make a show that everybody would probably take that deal I feel like now Hollywood is very much being like de-glamorized almost if it was like nobody really at least on the internet people don't really care about Hollywood anymore I I mean I don't personally like I'm interested in LA no I think it's terrible I hate yeah I hate that whole culture like LA Hollywood I mean LA is kind of nice I like the humidity there but that's about it I don't I live in that scorched land down here and I want to be somewhere cold it's just like oh it's the same as here except it's really smoggy yeah but I was I didn't relocate to LA or anything like that I was still just doing I was in Vancouver and I would just work remotely for them producing content and then I would send it over to them and it would get thrown into their programming queue and yeah so that's that's how it started and then I made Master G sucks at Halo 3 and then Arby and the chief came along when I kind of after the third one I kind of realized that Master Chief needed a foil it only makes sense right yeah so I felt like I could get much more comedic value out of it if there is like a straight man to like play off of chief right and then I could turn the show into sort of like the arguments that happen in my head basically I would just personify them as Arbiter and Chief and I've been accused of like making Arbiter a Mary Sue and it is true what yeah where it's just like but loads of hate of all my opinions are Arbiter yeah oh wait okay like as a self-insert maybe there's probably some degree of that in chief as well though right like you'll say some stuff yes on your mind exactly that mean that dialogue from chief doesn't come out of nowhere like that shit that goes through my head in a very childish part of me you know but luckily I have to have the maturity to keep a lid on it and not actually be that person you know so but yeah it's and I always liked immature kind of humor and and so yeah so I created the Arbiter character Arbiter was actually introduced in the Master Chief sucks at Halo series but he was just as stupid as chief was and I realized like that's not the right way to do this like he should be smarter and like the straight role to like play off of chief nowadays and would call your race yeah yeah let's that's that I lose sleep over that to be honest with the whole political correctness thing and like whether the words that I use in my show are still okay to use well yeah you can be retroactively hung up for whatever you said because I'll be the chief was definitely just no filter right yeah so I'm not gonna repeat any of the words on this stream because I don't want you to get flagged or demonetized or whatever but the F word the R word those are all words that I used straight from episode one you know so if I suddenly start censoring myself now it just seems like I don't know dishonest was the way yes we get confused it's the way it confusingly works once enough people are annoyed by it we're sort of just conditioned to be like I guess I shouldn't use it I guess and right with the internet it's just combination of so many different cultures and attitudes there's all trying to morph into one but it's constantly fighting because there's so many cultures that are just like what do you mean that way it's fine and then another culture is like no it's not though and it's like yeah it is no it's not yet is right we know what that pertains to write more of the art the massive story oh well sure but I thought you were gonna mention cunt because in America that's much of a strong in Britain it's not that strong and in Australia I don't even know if it really is considered a swear word yeah yeah I mean I'm I'm from Britain I was born in Glasgow so like I understand that it cunt over there's like a term of endearment almost yeah and the word was never never struck me as a big deal but whatever the bad words that I use it was always used as a reflection of the volatility that I observed you know playing online because those are the words people use and yeah like any attempt to portray online gaming without actually just leading into the fact that people are gonna say whatever they want which includes a lot of offensive things would almost be dishonest well that's the that's the art of it isn't it because like you can't say this word it's like but that person would say this word so yes yes exactly and I thought from the get-go I wanted to make a show that depicted online gaming for what it was for just just how volatile it was and I hated you know how like publishers and developers would release trailers for video games and they would do like mock online gaming oh my god what was wasn't it a fuck what was the game vision was the division yeah that was it that's the thing they did it for Anderson as well yeah it is the cringiest fucking shit in the universe it's not how people talk yeah it's so unnatural anybody who's little NPCs yeah anybody who's played on an online game for more than 10 minutes knows that that's not how people fucking talk on there and I wanted to make a show that actually reflected how what it was like mm-hmm was it was rainbow six siege wasn't it yeah where they had like yeah and they're like all right we're gonna insert on the roof guys you ready yeah let's go exactly it's just awful it's no body coordinates on an online game everybody's a lone wolf just swearing yeah you talk we're talking me shit for like cuz I remember the you know the people who roleplay armor servers for that yeah like high level will the warcraft or even left the dead had had like at the peak of its players they'd be people who play versus like incredibly seriously like you need to tell people when you're reloading I think my favorite part of the rainbow six siege one was that there was this enemy player I think he was called havoc and they would constantly oh shit havoc he's covered havoc calm down there Sonic yeah that right yeah nobody has like really nobody has like any crazy ass online names that you would actually see like XXX smoke weed every day like 69 mom boner 69 xx and you're like gosh it's him again instead you see like Marine 7 so it's my name yes Marine 7 like okay I see in chat a guy called white light I like your reviews of gotta be white light I don't I don't I haven't watched this stuff I hope it's good hello hello white light I have never heard of you but don't worry most people haven't most people haven't heard of everyone statistically most people have not heard of you so this yeah those videos were hilarious and I don't know why they thought that would encourage like people to either people to want to play more online or the people be like oh the online looks so good it's like Nars off put in if anything if that's how everybody operates on it like yeah I don't want to be in a room where that's the discourse not that that that this discourse is totally fucking phony anyway nobody yeah I got enough I got enough get enough issues in my life going on right now I work a little bit too hard on this that and the other thing to go home sit down at my computer open up a game and call a 12 year old sir sir would you do you need some resources I can address me a sir in this role play server do you understand you that already sounds like a great sketch so doesn't it everyone's operating that way and there's this one dude a chief like character who's just like what's up fuckers just like wait you can't say just that sort of shit and you already want to do that because that's how it actually goes it's just way more fun you'd find that character more endearing than any of the others yeah that's why straight guys are so popular and why it's almost just always a good idea that kind of have one just the normal person yeah so that helps you think that this what you're watching is real because there's a realish person involved in it so I can't take that woman seriously there's no normal oh my god there isn't a straight man in that is there Jesus yeah there probably is a reason why like the the idiot and the straight man is such an endearing and recurring comedy like combination it just it works really well if you have a guy I mean that's what Wallace and Gromit is effectively you know like straight man and Wallace is this wacky crazy dude and they play off of each other really well totally yeah I I grew up watching a lot of like British sitcoms like comedy shows and like comedy duos oh yeah we had a whole barge more common wise like they all informed me on some level do you like comedic writing even though these these are technically considered old now but the newer ones like Mitchell and Webb or even French and Saunders yes Mitchell and Webb French and Saunders both brilliant yep so many good pairings so many good sketch shows and that's the thing it's funny we're on this because Fringin I were watching a bit of Mitchell and Webb like two days ago so it's like convenient for the particularly it was the one where they suggest killing all of the poor to solve problems in I can't remember the economic problems I think you guys wanted to war on poverty this is what that means yeah the whole joke is like we wouldn't do that he's like no of course we wouldn't do it but would it work we need to find out and that reminds me that Jonathan Swift essay about eating the homeless oh yeah homelessness or poverty yeah and then of course British this is a thing like it's not the other places don't have great comedy as well it's just a good thing to grow up on especially if you had like like I'm assuming do you watch Blackadder yes love it so good faulty towers yeah this is all stuff you gotta watch when you're growing up so you get a good sense of humor required viewing if you want to especially with the they've censored or they've gone rid of one of the faulty tower episodes now they got rid of the German one yeah that's really which is specifically because of the scene with the Black Doctor yeah it's like that's the reason yeah it's the best episode hell and once as we just mentioned before as well the most offensive part of Basil faulty in that episode is the fact that he's like that's the point that's him that's he's the character the other characters get to condemn him and make fun of him this is like a big problem with a lot of people's interpretation of comedy generally the idiot like and you know be chief or Basil faulty like that type they're not like or Eric Cartman they're not like the guy you're meant to be like the same laughing at same goes for Rick Sanchez and Rick and a lot of the stuff that he says is very brutal and also wrong like a lot of it is very removes elements of the truth in order to make a conclusion and that you know a lot of people idolize him a lot of people like you shouldn't be listening to me he's not a good person it's like the show is not telling you he's a good person the show is very desperately just trying to have him remain in character he would say these things because you know a lot of people get confused as being like what's the message of the show is it this thing the character said and it's like what made it be it's gonna be more complicated than that usually right that's why it's good to have characters that challenge the shit yeah sincering some South Park episodes now that it's out I'd be surprised if they weren't South Park is just well I mean South Park has had many episodes that I'm pretty sure the Scientology episode does not get replayed what was because I'm pretty sure I think Tom Cruise Mission Impossible through was coming out around the same time and Tom Cruise like Mission Impossible was Paramount South Park is Paramount or Viacom and I think Tom Cruise was wasn't going to do the promotional tour for Mission Impossible 3 because of that episode and so it doesn't rerun it's so fun but I have it on because I have the box set for season 6 to 10 the best stretch of South Park like for sure so I have it forever I remember reading about recently I'm pretty sure a few South Park episodes have been pulled I think it's Hulu doing it it's not it's obviously not Matt or Trey it's not Comedy Central I think it's Hulu because they have the streaming rights to it yeah there are five episodes on HBO Max that have been pulled down okay yeah I know HBO has been pulling stuff as well oh they're the religious ones yeah yeah yeah yeah I know that's about is it just the religious ones or is it like race related specifically any episode there are five episodes in which Muhammad appears and they're not in it those ones that would have been like the 200th episode I think they did a whole thing but that means there's no family guy the family guy episode wouldn't be in there without making a lot of people doom about this right like all everything's going to go but it's like well but if we're knocking out some of these little things we've been seeing it's like surely it is only a matter of time before each of the because we all watch these shows when they first came out there they're edgy very edgy and so it's just like are we just yeah is that what we're doing now I guess so yeah it worries me I really hate the direction we're going in right now it sucks it's if it was like this pure puritanical view on what art or like comedy is meant to be you know there's certain things that you're not allowed to do because what about the potential consequences of other people deciding to behave a certain way because they were influenced by a piece of media but that's like a really tenuous and stupid reason to do anything right you bring up a family I'm Mike Henry stopped doing the voice of Cleveland now right I heard about that yeah and no more I guess Hank Azari is up who that was a long time coming but see like yeah I remember he didn't give it up straight away it was once he'd been barked at enough that he was like I guess I'm hurting people okay fine I'll stop and that's how it's all going to go I think it's just people because the people who like this stuff don't angrily shout regularly the people that they do a great job we just we go yes good stuff I like it but the people who are angry that they're doing a bad job as much as I don't think there's that many of them relative to everyone nor do I think there's that many that agree relative to everyone but they're just going to keep shouting they're going to keep sending messages it's just gonna be like yeah okay I'll stop I'll stop I'll stop they're the vocal ones yes totally I think there's an argument to be made on the live action side of things for like if you're telling a story in a certain area of the world where it makes sense to cast an Asian person or whatever there's plenty of Asian talent there's plenty of black talent like if the role calls for like a black person or an Asian person or whatever just sure cast yeah a person of the appropriate race because there's plenty of talent it would be weird to see like Mads Mickelson playing Shaka Zulu in the right yeah rather unusual I would feel like that would be a point of contention yeah but I think what once we start getting in into the gradient of this where we're going into the territory of like comedy cartoons like comic like comedy voiceovers for a cartoon it's just like like well I mean worthwhile like right so his voice has to be replaced he's playing a Greek and he's always being played oh you know they aren't gonna do but another form of hypocrisy being you know up who is a stereotype that's why he's bad and it's like so what Willy it's like yeah but he's Scottish who cares it's like yeah well I'm surprised bumblebee man hasn't been destroyed in the process to bumblebee man is small enough right but it's funny right because Homer Simpson is just American dad well he is just the standard it's plenty offensive if you want to go that way it's like hey I'm an American father I'm not fat stupid and selfish it's like yeah well you know whatever I guess I guess everyone's willing to accept that that's a caricature while the every member of this is the thing about Simpson's it blows my mind every member of Springfield is supposed to be an extreme version of that particular stereotype or archetype like the fat policeman who just eats donuts and he's terrible at his job and you're like yeah okay the the evil white old man who's got the most money owns mansions and basically everyone is damaged in some way shape or form by his operations and he doesn't give a shit he tries to block out the Sun this is what I mean like there's one for everybody that's why Simpson's with emphasis on the was so awesome it was making fun of everybody sims at South Park as well but Simpsons was a lot more child friendly let's just say as it's worth mentioning sorry Alpou is actually like the best person altruistically in Springfield other than like Lisa right but yet we have to lose him because he's too offensive it's like that's absurd but okay yeah that they're censoring the episode about censorship kind of oh yeah well the all of the family guy episodes that they're censoring the main point was censorship they were trying to make a point about censorship it was never it's so what they're making it about it's why we have to appreciate the shit out of some of these these old cartoons it's like you have to really appreciate some of the ideas I still remember that episode vividly it's Marge makes a huge fuss about itching scratchy it gets sanitized to an insane degree and nobody even likes it anymore and she's happy everything's great then Michelangelo's David comes into town right or it's a statue that has you can you can see the bad part and she's okay with it because that's a piece of art but other people like what do you mean what about the children what are you talking about like Marge this is horrible that we need to go with protests and she's like what no and it's like ah it's very obvious what point they're making well that's what the whole South Park movie was about the kids watch Terence and Phillip because of course they were going through like of course they would and I think that's what a lot of people forget is like kids of course they're going to consume the content especially if you make it forbidden yeah you tell me how much forbidden content did you guys consume because I have my household it was a whole shelf of movies I wasn't allowed to watch and I was like well next time you guys head out I mean that's that's effectively what it is you know like people the fact that everybody is aware that Call of Duty is consumed by teenagers and children it's like well it's not supposed to be but we all know that they will anyway because of course they're going through it feels like a lot of people have forgotten what it was like actually being a kid this really cool edgy content this is the thing with how everything's going we're a part of a generation that never came before will never come again the idea that we were we were let out onto this because it all started with play pong you know in your safe little room no one can bother you good but that I eventually once it clicked on online parents I don't think really reacted to that they didn't understand what that meant your kid is now walking into a world full of un-parented kids and we go we just got a blast of reality it's just like all over the place one of well also shooting people exploding people or you know moving blocks whatever it was at least there wasn't a vagina or a booby in like that's already going away with what we've been talking about and I think I think one of the things I've thought about a lot like the whole point of Red Dead Redemption 2 is like you know these people who have to get used to the new times and they don't understand it and obviously when you look at it like dude civilization is cool but like if you look at the internet as like the old West which is what it feels like it feels like I'm Arthur Morgan here like I just don't understand this you know civilization don't mind it you know I just want the freedom like that's all I want I just want the internet to be what it was like this untempered wild land where there was a lot of great it was what was wonderful I the internet used to be insanely good it was just the best thing ever there was so little filtering so little censorship it was just all over the place nowadays like every other article it's like hey remember that favorite thing of yours guess what you're like it should have never been made and you're a bad person for enjoying it retroactively yeah gone with the wind gone right yeah I think they're bringing that one back with with a disclaimer we'll see that yeah I heard about that and I still think it's absurd the idea that like so whatever is in there right that was offensive I wonder how many movies that applies to and then should all movies actually and then I was just like what you're doing is just you going through the cycle of why we even have age ratings that's all you're doing like it's ridiculous why would we need anything beyond age ratings there are ideas out there that if we expose a person to them they could be hurt like this isn't fun like this this sounds like something else now right and also a fence is subjective you know like what what if I just saw something and I was like man I'm offended by the teller tubbies they're making fun of morbidly obese people who eat TVs you know like you then eat TV some goodness you know that's like oh we're sorry or what was some bananas in pyjamas you know like sentin bananas is terrifying I couldn't sleep or like I guess it's just um I feel like even something as wholesome as Sesame Street you could find some way to spin it oh dude you're limitless with interpretation we've seen that actually with modern YouTube even in the past like year most of the never people will be looking back at old cartoons or old shows or old movies that are absolutely innocent and being like you do get that this is about fascism you know like I'm sorry you know like you don't start SpongeBob is trying to teach and you're like shut the fuck up Jerry Jerry is running away from Tom it's it's it's just as it's no it's about marginalization it's an analogy for capitalism analogy Jerry is the oppressive white man because I think there's there's room for this weird middle ground where I remember when I was younger my dad but he got a big box DVD set of like all the old Looney Tunes and in like the preamble whatever was before the show they just say some of these cartoons were made a long time ago and some of them have you know racial depictions of stereotypes and da da da but we're you know we're just letting you know that this is a you know it's what they did back then and we're preserving these originals here and they're you know original form because you know it's art and it's from a different time and it's all that sort of thing and if that's all they did I would just man if that was if only that could be the world where we lived in where that's as far as they wanted to go it's a shame as well because if you fight too hard for this stuff if you fight publicly and hardly to be able to have all these words be not conceivable it's like you can start getting some labels and then you have people coming after you in different ways depending on how popular you are you got to be real careful yeah because the whole the whole idea is effectively you're defending a principal more so than anything the whole idea of like absolutely it's not any single use of the thing in any particular context it's more just a wider scale it's always about your you don't want then it has to be all or nothing you have to commit to all or nothing because if you don't it's just going to be some wishy washy bullshit that's decided by whoever has the most power at the time that's the power of intersubjectivity where you get enough people who have a similar take subjectively and thus it has to be accounted for as in if we just if we paid a million people to say that they're offended by the word chungus I think it would actually become a swear word if they just kept saying it over and over again there's horribly offensive it relates to fat people and it's disgusting and defamatory and you I mean they're trying it with Karen right they're trying to make it so we'll have to see how that goes what was the one you said goblin oh right yeah I used goblin in a tweet the other day and I had someone leave a comment on there saying like can you be careful using words like that they're often associated with like Jew hate and I was like what the fuck it's like completely unrelated I was just like it's a goblin goblins are you can't take me talking dog give me back my goblin word you can't take that yeah that's goblins I'll get you oh yeah remember the okay symbol that got made into a Nazi symbol for a while is that still a thing over they given up on that one I think they gave up on it I think they gave up on it it's just it's so it was so ridiculous it it caught on just enough for all the normies to get wind of it well remember we watched a video on EFAP about it there was a guy explaining like you need to stop using it because it is like an IGN thing wasn't it I think so it was a fairly big studio guy and he was like guys we have to stop using the okay symbol because reason it's kind of few people in chat give me the goblin pass thank you guys my G what's up my G words what's up my gig is my goblins like my goblins yeah I'm really sick of those preachy condescending articles about like we really need to stop doing X or whatever it is yeah I love that I always frame it that way we it's like we really need to stop doing another one they say we really need to talk about and then thing and it's like what oh yeah like yeah I'm really it is a curiosity it's just like how long before they're like you know Schindler's list is pretty offensive actually just like there goes our chance of getting a musical if only we're we're we in in Argentisms we've got you brought up the idea of the the the satatized versions of game chat that's where we went off the rails so we could get back that's the fat yeah was it was it relevant to like you wanting to I don't know provide the alternative and stuff right in the in the stories right yeah so yeah I just I wanted to depict the the online gaming sphere for what it was and I feel like big companies developers publishers were kind of shying away from what it really was and I was just like no like let's actually look at what it is you know and I don't I know I had people affiliated with like Bungie or Microsoft were fans of what I did but they couldn't publicly kind of announce it like there's Halo Waypoint was a thing I don't know if you heard of that but it was yeah yeah yeah it was like a content platform for Halo related videos some red versus blue stuff went on there I think and I knew somebody with Halo Waypoint who is a big fan of what I did but they were like we can't have your stuff on the platform unfortunately and I was like me you know what that's okay I get it like I understand I realize I'm kind of going in a direction here where I'm painting the the culture for what it is and it's not a flattering look but it is what it is you know that's the direction I wanted to go in and I accept the consequences of that if nobody no big companies want to affiliate with me fine at least I'm I'm writing the content that I want to make you know and I have my audience and it's for them and they enjoy it and whoever wants to get on board is welcome to and yeah and so yeah I kept doing that and I made a first season of the show are being the chief and then a second one and and a third one and the fourth one and between the third and the fourth one there was a gap because I got burned out after season three and I was kind of like I don't want to do this anymore at least not necessarily permanently but I was just like I got to just take a break and then see how I feel a little bit later and that they it was obviously getting so many views at that point the show that they wanted to keep that train going so they decided they wanted to do it in house so they would they would take over the writing and they would like get the action figures and then they would film more episodes of the show without my involvement and so that was what Arby and the chief in LA was I don't know if you guys heard of that yeah that's a whole fucking thing I mean there's so many different questions to it I guess it's just like what do you have to say about all that oh Christ well they they made the first couple episodes and they were horribly received and then they make yeah and then they came to me so what is this this is Arby and the chief in LA what's that yeah so that that was the quote on quote fourth season that I wasn't involved in because I was burned out after season three and I was just like I don't want to do this at least for a little while but they machinima wanted to keep it going because it was such a view cow for them yeah and so they wanted to just do it themselves they would they would have their own writer and their own puppeteer and cinematographer and all that and I was it's kind of insane how that's a microcosm of how TV shows will often go in real life like yes a creative is behind it they they push everything to be the way that it is it becomes loved and that creative wants to or is there yes and it's like yeah kind of well I mean it's I mean the chief in LA is kind of like season four of community almost yeah lost lost the person who made it and people could tell I could tell and I was like 14 or 15 at the time yeah yeah it's true with a lot of things as soon as the creative director goes or like just key members of the it's the ones that just had the most input right it's like when you lose them you're not getting the input that was required to make the thing in the first place I mean look at companies like bungee like bungee like you know look at all the companies like Bioware well I think I think Naughty Dog might be the interesting one right now because people are I've seen people make the observation that a lot of and I've been thinking about this a lot lately like the whole idea that the studio is very different I mean Andy Gavin Jason Rubin haven't been there since Jack and Daxter and they founded the company Amy Hennig hasn't been there for a long time Bruce Strattley left so you have like a lot of big people cycle out and slowly but surely you eventually end up with a different team and they're not necessarily going to make the decisions that you describing Simpsons now as well right wow Simpsons yeah there's another one just cycled all of the creatives out and now we we don't even know who's right at these episodes really we are like it's it's rare that you ever notice the change but the change eventually comes and that's it's stark but I guess it's an interesting thing that we often like I think a lot of people often don't think about the people who make the content that they like I mean I think it's really easy when you think about actors and stuff but a writer's room I mean the Simpsons writer's room was legendary but barely anybody would know their names except like Conan O'Brien and those for a lot of video game developers I mean a lot of people probably don't know who Jason Jones is or or Joseph Staten or any of those guys despite the fact that millions of people consumed what they made it's kind of funny because you can see it from both directions there it's like when they buy it they're like well all we really needed because that's what people want and then we just need brand you actually have consumers who are like yeah I don't really care who's writing it I just want to see Han Solo shoot his gun I just want to see Luke Skywalker with his lightsaber I don't really care what's happening and it's like those people will be pleased no matter what but then you just have these hardcore fads said they're like something's not right it's something's wrong yeah something's missing yeah I feel like that's well we probably can't talk about the last of us too because Mola hasn't played it yet but that's yeah probably shouldn't even brought it up it's probably gonna get talked about chat now whoops Oh sorry I'll I'll look away because I'm I'm I'm on the cusp of being able to play it so I'm excited to react to everything Brandy have you have you played it John or yeah and then I realized this is going to be a very unpopular opinion but I fucking loved it I really did wow that is a oh that sucks we can't have you back once well if you're willing and what once we do a last of us to stream because we're planning I'll do it you've had for it for sure yeah I'm I'm really blown away by how divided everyone is on it I I guess in a way it's not yeah I agree in a way it's not surprising but like the hatred I'm seeing for it is so strong it's just that there's an I wasn't expecting it to that degree you got there's other elements involved people are unhappy with the story it's also correct me from wrong but the angle yeah but I also only business practices that people were concerned with in relation to a naughty dog as well the studio and the crunch well that's why we got the leaks we got the leaks because a guy there got so fed up with how terrible the company was treating him he was like fuck it here's what's happened he is what happens in the game I think that's been the beginning I think the problem was that there were a lot of things that happened beforehand that could lead somebody to believe that that there were that there were going to be problems like the whole idea of 17 out of 20 designers leaving in a short period of time it's like well that's a lot of new guys you have to come in and are they going to do as good I mean but then again it's interesting right because most of the criticism is directed at the story very few people were talking about the game play which I think it's just good I'm not sure if I'd go much further but I think the story the problem was the decision they made it was probably never going to like a lot of people would never going to like that I feel I feel like they were probably more well it's kind of a weird criticism right you should have done it this way but done the same thing but there's like a lot of validity to the whole idea maybe they should have inverted the story and done it in the opposite but that I don't know part of the problem is I know what they were trying to do but I I'm not convinced that they executed on it very well but but we can't talk about it don't mean to blue ball chat but it'll come eventually and like I said we'll we'll have you if you want to if you want to chat about it because we'll probably take several hours to talk about what's wrong with it once once we once we've all got the context we need as in playing it all because I'll watch Mahler play it and his playthrough so I'll be around for the ride so I'll be able to know everything about what's going on mm-hmm yeah I I agree it's definitely not a perfect game but I just the the degree of shit that it's getting I think is well I think I think that any score for that game I was talking about it with a couple of people like it's a four out of ten and I was I was flawed like I don't see how anybody could say that no especially then the attention to detail and the animation and everything at the same time I imagine you both agree it's not a ten out of ten so oh yeah I I don't think it is gotta find that number it sits on where might it be I don't I don't I don't think the I don't think the first game is a ten had a ten either no yeah no the do I no the it's in my big most over over praise overrated games of all time mm-hmm so anyway right so we were on Arby the chief in LA right yes yeah so they did the first three episodes received horribly and then my producer contact at Machinima contacted me and he was actually writing the scripts for it because screenwriter I was gonna it's gonna be so weird to have to write for a bunch of characters when you not even necessarily prepared for you just like I don't know that they say this stuff I guess yeah exactly it's just so so not the way to like do this and so I I definitely regret the decision of handing it over but you know I was I was burned out you know and it's like something had to give you know you are were you working on like hard justice and one life remaining around that time yeah I would jump between projects and that was kind of a it helped me stay productive because I would work on one show and kind of get tunnel vision and then yeah and then I would jump to another show and kind of be able to look at it with fresh eyes and then get a sudden surge of inspiration and then to work on that for a bit and then I'd get bored of that and then I'd jump back to the other thing and that really worked for me is that kind of the I this kind of like a tangent bit I figure that might be the reason why the bites miniseries alongside like yes it's a nice diversion from the plot and yeah there's different objectives when I'm writing this full story episodes and then bite episodes bite episodes I'm just trying to make people laugh and the plot doesn't really matter the plot can be absolutely ridiculous as long as it's funny and then with the story episodes I'm much more focused on the plot making trying there's a lot more focus on plot and I don't let the plot come at the expense of a joke a lot of the times so go ahead sorry I was gonna ask and I know you don't like one life remaining hard justice but if you had to choose which one of those shows do you like more what do you reckon jeez probably hard justice I think I think they're both they're both kind of cringy looking back on them for me I mean because they're like a lot of the jokes didn't land Oh thank you I really appreciate that I mean I'm not shitting on anybody who likes the show either I'm really appreciative of anybody who likes my old content well I guess some I guess what I would say is like hard justice and one life remaining a really funny but the plots are a little bit flimsy ridiculous yes well yeah I mean like I I remember like I think I think what with the like Bernard and and all that and then it was like investigating on why if you don't want to talk about a spot like no if you go ahead I'm totally fine with it yeah hard justice it was a big dick joke that's the reason it was called yeah I didn't realize that and the the the police group is called erect erect eradication of repulsive evil wicked rocks yeah yeah exactly this is just erect stupid dick jokes and but sometimes the plot took itself too seriously in contrast with that and it just didn't work like in in retrospect is about plotting though like having done those shows because they was they were serialized but can you repeat the first part of that sorry I missed it do you think that that doing those shows what and I think this is an interesting thing when it comes like any creative enterprise like the fact that you have to make stuff that isn't as good to get good do you think that like plotting and structure story structure and stuff like that oh for sure yeah I'm I'm a huge believer and failure you know and like you must love the last Jedi actually I get I get shit because I had said that I watched last Jedi in theater and I didn't mind it I thought it was okay listen oh it's all well I don't know how you currently feel but a couple my friends came out one of them said it was me both of those dudes hate the film now so it your mind changes I came out confused yeah it's nowhere near perfect but I will say that I still like it better than Rise of Skywalker that's fine I think that's a bad I think that's fine yeah honestly choose between which one of those two is worse I'm I'm on the rare team of choose any of the sequels they're also terrible choose whatever what you you're watching if I mean you can tell are written by different people like those films you probably argue that TROS was written by someone different from TFA and yet yeah I think I had watched last Jedi two with a fondness of Rian Johnson because I I liked his work well he had he had directed a few episodes I'm not of course he didn't write the episode but he directed a few episodes of breaking bad yep and he wrote looper I think I have respect for directing yeah like I'm fine with him he directed from my limited understanding of what I can draw of a directors talents from just watching the film seems to me like he's he's pretty strong but holy shit his writing and this is coming from because I remember when people like are you gonna you know last for last for sorry last Jedi is gonna be great because it's written by the guy wrote looper I remember being like wait wait but loopers out I think but then I feel like looper has kind of it's just kind of the issue with all time travel stories for the most yes it's not just the because the compare this this is the thing mini rent like Ryan Johnson was like hey you're supposed to treat looper even if you think it doesn't make sense the same way you treat Terminator you give them the time travel right at the beginning and the rest the story runs without it and as YMS says that doesn't make any fucking sense at all looper has the time travel tism happening throughout it this plot relies on it the biggest payoff in the movie is to do with time travel it cannot be separated the entire time while Terminator he's right you only need the opening and then the rest of it runs without time travel because I remember like I think the thing in the looper was the whole I can remember what you do after you do it and then they communicate messages fuck it doesn't make sense because if you scarred yourself with a message you grew up with it and also the fundamental premise of the film doesn't work you can't kill people in the future but they killed his wife and that's what made him angry which is like wait and this this is Ryan Johnson's writing he's he's gunning for the emotional payoffs which everybody probably should do as writers that's the thing that everyone loves about him but holy shit you gotta earn your way there you can't just skip over a bunch of stuff and just be like I don't know don't who cares it's not about science it's about about fun which right yeah we could we could probably get into that as we progress I imagine yeah I think I'm usually more forgiving with then a lot of people I know because like I come from like I went to film school for four years I know how hard it is making a movie and I I had seen Ryan Johnson in interviews and he always struck me as a really nice guy and so that I think that kind of soften the blow for me where I you know I've I watched last jet I'm like yeah he tried it was all right you know I mean I'd be sure like yeah definitely tried like you could tell that he was interested in making that film it was just a few days ago I was on Twitter arguing that I don't think he did it at all for the money really I think that he did it because he's a creative who had a passion if you watch the behind scene stuff he seems to be very invested in all of his ideas I'm okay with that I just think he didn't do a good job the ideas were just really shit and they ruined a lot of stuff that's totally fair I get that yeah for sure that movie definitely was not about making money happy that it just had lightsabers and the characters and space that's what they were after and they got it so good for them but the individuals they hire definitely have their own ideas which again is a good thing it's just that I don't know when you join a franchise this kind of comes back to us talking about not only I'll be the chief of the community as well and and Simpson it's like when you take over for a thing you need to learn that shit because you got to continue it you don't just add onto it like Lego that's not how it works right I'll be in the chief in L.I. right yeah that's where we were so we just we just have all these tangents we just go that's how we are keep getting derailed there's no no worries I don't mind so so my producer contacted machine I had contacted me saying look these episodes aren't faring very well and they wanted me to just help they asked like can you help us out at all like I realize you're burned out but like can you at least just handle the writing part of it and I agreed reluctantly but that was a mistake because I had to keep going what they had established which was flawed and stupid and I should have just I should have just argued that we should just like kill that season and I would just move on to I mean at that point I still wasn't prepared to take the whole show back on because I was just I was still burned out because it was just like a week or two after but I agreed to handle the writing of it and I didn't do a good job with the writing and I knew you were kind of set up not very well to you know like salvage it I would say the the base was already flawed you know what I mean so yeah probably that was a factor and also yeah because of that my heart wasn't in it but if my heart isn't in something I should have known better I should have just not done it you know because like I'm of the mindset now where if you're going to do something like do it a hundred percent or just don't do it at all and I wasn't giving it a hundred percent there just because there was too many flawed elements but I just I finished I powered through it I finished the season off and I felt pretty ashamed of it and myself and so but at that point I was feeling kind of invigorated enough it's like a drive to be like you know what it can be good though that sort of thing yes yes yeah so I thought like I can I can fix this this can still be a good show and you know if I'm doing everything again you know I'm not so burned out anymore and I can get a lot of creative satisfaction and the fact that I'm handling every aspect of it again and the fact is I did want to do the show again at that point I was ready to take it back so I took back creative control complete creative control of the show again and I called it season 4 so I basically pretended that Harvey and the chief in LA didn't exist and yeah so I just I went ahead and did season 4 and some of my best episodes are in that I think season 4 was like pivotal because I think you can see the transition into what it eventually became as a viewer in that season yeah well in the latter half of season 4 there's a big yeah there's a real I had a kind of a there's a big click in my brain all of a sudden when it came to like writing scripts like there's one episode I did called night of the evading dead yeah I remember that one evading a reference to a particular armor ability in the game anyway the script was structured where the character a character was in one state that be at the beginning but in a different state at the end of the movie and it sounds so like obvious but when when you're in the in the position of being the writer for some reason I hadn't come to the conclusion that I could have character development in my scripts right until now you know do you think that's tied to the fact that it was comedy more so than anything like the and comedy just naturally like well the characters got to stay the same because that's that's the joke it's these characters dealing with these situations that's a great point I think you're right about that yeah there's something about comedic writing where characters are kind of frozen look at this like Simpsons right every character learn something at some point but they're still exactly the same basically throughout the how long is it 35 years whatever they're all the same yeah right yeah so I've I figured out in that moment that I don't know like because chiefs character really never changes and if he did then I think the show would be over so I figured out that he couldn't change it in a significant way but there could be some slight kind of evolution in his character or Arbiter's character or whatever a lesson could be learned which is actually something I find super interesting about chief them I'm going to vaguely describe something and I'm pretty sure for you you'll be able to pick up who I'm referencing here but from a different show I mean so you have a character that is specifically one way but you kind of want to have moments where they're doing specific things and you're like but they can't fundamentally because of this this this so how do I how do I connect their fundamental motivation which is mostly an evil one to allowing them to have good person payoffs and like you have to it can be extremely difficult but you have to motivate chief by essentially being the lesser of two evils right that's usually what it is he usually commits to doing some kind of action that is fundamentally on its own maybe in isolation a bad act but they're doing it in favour of something better or to a awful person to prevent them from doing something worse which is how we can get him into situations where he's almost a hero but fundamentally still in character right yes I think I think like chief you can see that probably in like season six the interesting idea of like he's like well I don't want Halo to go away so like it's a very selfish reason to do a heroic thing you know I like playing Halo I don't want it to go away but yet yeah chief is such selfish person that he wouldn't typically put himself in half well harm's way as far as you know online games of concern to do something good well I think it says yeah whereas Arbiter has many reasons to make because he's a thoughtful person so it's it's different like it's a he has a different reason to do good things and it always came across to me as a stakes thing as well when when Halo as a whole is at risk the little jabs and swear words and just endearing because it is right now that's just fun because because we're actually trying to do something really important when everything scales back down and he and Arbiter just gonna have a game online and he's being addicted someone is kind of like hey don't be so like ass holy come on that's sort of thing it's really interesting how it can change speed like when we're in the thick of a big fight against a big enemy trying to save the world and he's doing the exact same stuff he's always done which like how that old chief the idea of like making the show serialized I'm sure like I'd listen to a director's commentary that you did where you mentioned and it just makes sense to me the whole idea of like if Arbiter is a thoughtful intelligent person who is stuck in the same place day in day out playing Halo like surely that's got to be like surely he's not content with that right like surely this isn't he's not happy with his life exactly yeah so yeah I realized that kind of that didn't make sense like why would someone as smart as he is be satisfied with the state of his life you know just and how could he possibly spend that much time with someone who he could never be friends with like how do you do that yeah so like he started getting depressed which was a reflection of my own depression that I dealt with in my own life right and a lot of the writing that I did as the show went on was kind of therapeutic in a way you know because I was dealing with my own thoughts about life and feeling like shit and and I would kind of explore those ideas through the toys you know and that that that delighted some people it pissed off a lot of people I think I polarized naturally a lot of people in that moment but I I don't I don't think the show ever jumped the shark I don't think so personally because it was always about like online relationships with people like encountering people online and like various personalities and what I did with like season five and then onward is that I would take one character and just focus on them for like the whole season rather than just one episode and I was like this is an opportunity to kind of really explore single character or a batch of characters but anyway so the so I did I worked on season four and and then I I all of a sudden became much more serious about screenwriting and then I bought a bunch of books on it and I really I was like I was just kind of fucking around before like yeah just like writing kind of stream of consciousness almost like this is funny this is funny not really thinking about like book ending stories or foreshadowing or using plot devices and then sophisticated kind of way but I wanted to I wanted to do that and and I wrote I wanted to get good at it so I bought all a bunch of books and I bought like the the SID field books you know how to be a screenwriter and all the stuff right yeah I bought I think you wrote three books I bought all of those right I'm all and you feel started that they helped oh yeah definitely and I took structure a lot more seriously and I had like white boards I did the index hard thing where I would you know I would always have three acts and then ah you know it's all useful like framing for how you're going to fit your ideas into something and make them full right um what what do you think would be like any particular things you really felt like are this is making it all work now this particular thing when I I think I was always kind of adhering to the three act structure like subconsciously but now at this point I was very aware of it and it helped the outlining process a lot and I I still I still do the exact same thing I don't do the whiteboards and index cards because it's just kind of a pain in the ass to be honest it's quicker to just do it in notepad but I'll write like act one act two act three and then I'll indent that and then I'll list in three word beats what are like the within those acts right and it's usually can be it's like a switch or a delivery of a key piece of information or something you know it's like this scene this character does this this character says this and it's like a power switch that leads into the next scene organically you tend to have low points of the end of your second act yes yes the fact you know for the most part yeah you know you make sense a low point or a crisis or whatever you want to call it it's just things reach a boiling point right yeah and so I still I still go by that same pattern to when I'm writing episodes today and I did back then I started doing that and it really helped me like there's I think people who don't know about screenwriting and story structure they think that it's confining to have to adhere to a three act structure but I find that it maximizes your ability to tell us a dramatic to like to tell a dramatic story and inflict an emotion on people like the just say that limitations can really really inspire creativity yes yeah exactly God hmm yeah well if you ever found one working with that sort of thing though that you you're like damn I kind of want to I want to fourth act to erupt here kind of make it work or is it always worked out with three no it's always worked out with three for me I remember somebody DM'd me somebody sent me a hostile Twitter DM and they were like a you keep talking about how the third act is so fucking great I'm paraphrasing here but he said you should definitely read this book and it was a link to a book is called the Hulk's Guide to Screenwriting and the whole thing was written in all caps which I thought I was incredibly obnoxious possible to fucking um what yeah God right because the joke is he's the Hulk and he's angry and he therefore anyway so I was reading this book and the book was saying that you could have as many act breaks in a story as you want and the the idea of adhering to just three is limiting the potential of your story and I don't think I agree with that I don't agree with yeah yeah I'm not sure I feel like it's not that it can't work in theory I just feel like you're gonna have to really get all gel together I bet most people would try that and it would come out really really strange right so what the three act structure represents to me is the pattern of birth death and rebirth that is so intrinsic to existence you can there's you can't really get around it or refine it anymore than what it is and I think you can have as many act breaks in a story as you want but they're all going to fall under a broad three-act paradigm you know it's I think generally the way that acts are often defined as the door closes and the protagonist now must continue on this path the way that they can't go back anymore like they're forced onto the rail so like you know first act in signing event main character is now locked into a situation that they have to resolve and then the second act generally is the whole idea the door has now closed and then forces them like it forces them to come to some sort of revelation that will now allow them to win so almost the whole idea of everything starts off simple and they're cool first act door closes and now the character is forced to do with a situation they're unfamiliar with they approach it from their old point of view and then they lose and they change their point of view and then they win and that's like the simplest effective story I guess so but but there's nothing about that that limits the amount of times that you can force a character into a situation they have to get out of you know what I mean it's like it's just like a broad categorization precisely I think you hit the nail on the head it's a point of no return right and the the three act thing is it's just it's like you come across a cave you go in the cave and kill the monster and come out of the cave that's there's your three acts you know it's like I don't that's that goes back to like the dawn of man you know it's like the eternal story and I'm assuming this applies to seasons for you right not necessarily individual episodes and the season as a whole both yeah so when when I moved on to season five that was when I switched to Syria a serialized format and not only did I structure the season in three acts but I structured each episode in three acts as well there just obviously wasn't as much of a focus on butting things up at the end of each episode but I would definitely try to button things up at the end of the season diction and yeah yeah so I think the for season five it was like the first three episodes were act one of the season as a whole and then the middle six episodes five or six episodes were act two and then the last two or three episodes were act three and so now I wanna I was gonna bring the obvious question of like with serialization comes stories that are longer comes more focus on drama rather than comedy comes the confusion or even concerns that like the format you're using does not lend itself rule wise very well two stories as in you're limited by game mechanics and how how is that in terms of an approach because you know you wanna to have stakes you need rules but sometimes game rules don't match the kind of rules you're trying to create in your you know dramatization of events happening the standard ones being like however been talks to each other as they as they meet up with each other in the game versus most people wouldn't wouldn't be doing that in the in the game really when playing they'd be in parties or they wouldn't be talking at all that sort of thing yes exactly so yeah there's some there's some license that I take personally and like making you're right people don't talk like that online I mean there's the specific dialogue I don't think is unnatural but just the way the the format in which people talk oh well it's yeah this goes the same for a lot of content in media like an unspoken rules where we all have to go like I guess that's that's how that works then that's how that you know it happens in sci-fi and fantasy all the time in terms of that's how but when they're chasing I forget its name villain from season 5 why am I a friend yeah the trend yeah the the tracing him and he like gets into a so hornet right my halo knowledge is right yeah and he does he escapes into the distance and it's like he's moving servers when he goes to the edge of a map I guess like that's just how that works you're like all right that's how that works yeah in my mind it's he's navigating to a point in the map where no players will engage him and he has time to like go into his start menu and quit the game it's kind of stupid I know it is I mean that makes sense I guess like that you don't want to quit mid game in case they can frag you right I'll avoiding being fragged right so sorry say that again is like I for these just trying to drag you down I'll agree with you and say stupid yeah yes so I agree there's there's things about the plot that are kind of dumb but although I was saying that it was that's what you have no choice though this isn't an accident of your writing this is this is what your tools are you actually can't do anything about this like you have to right mold the world around your writing as best you can yes exactly and that's what I liked about RV in the chief more than my older shows is that the game is treated as a game like the they you know the the toys in the room that's like real life and then they log onto the game and the the way the game operates to a degree is incorporated into the story like with one life remaining in hard justice that's treated as like the real world and that's part of why it's so cringy to me yes why is everybody wearing armor it's just dumb it's just so dumb to look at and but I always liked how RV in the chief treats the game as a game even though like you were saying I take some license and how in the format of how people talk and stuff and but I think it worked still to a degree and I like it's all in service of certain themes and you know exploring the headspaces of certain characters and you know my own feelings you know emotions that I was going through growing up in my 20s well it was the character work that got me it wasn't the adherence to halo as a video game mechanically like I was like I mean I could take it or leave it but the right yeah whatever you know how everyone was dealing with all the different situations came up with like I love the idea of a group of in game almost like terrorists trying to take it all down and in response to tosses which is absurd but whatever like I can't believe it it's not even that detached from reality there's a group called Lizard Squad that took down Xbox Live Sony's Network yeah so a group of people can come together and attack you know networks and bring them down either for financial gain or just to disrupt you know the status quo or whatever you know just just for fun it like it also applies to the whole wedding crash thing I mean there's precedent for it was that World of Warcraft you know where they had the fuel in the game and a bunch of because of course somebody was gonna do that you know like it's the internet so there's always like precedent for people behaving in the ways that are they do on on the show like because it's happens in real life like people do these things people take down online networks people you know like crash video game you know funerals and weddings I'm really glad you brought that up because I forgot about that that that is one of the main reasons like season five is the way it is is because of that wow funeral and I thought that was so fascinating that yeah it's like it's a video game but people are gathering in this digital space as if it's a serious mournful thing even though it's a bunch of avatars fucking jumping around and I think you have characters discuss that right in the season there I think their conversations just marvelling on this actually having happened is insane right yeah so people are having these very monumental kind of events that should happen in a real space or you know I've heard of people getting married in Halo or whatever it's like it's actually happened and I'm indifferent to it like if people want to do that that's fine I just think it's kind of there's something about it that's all right it's crazy shit but you know whatever if that's what you if if that's what pleases the misses then I guess that's what you're doing yeah and it is something that happens so like what I was doing if people said it was my plot was stupid or whatever I could at least say well this did actually happen it's not that divorced from what people actually do so the the wow thing really fascinated me and then you know it got rated that that was the other factor that motivated like it wasn't just the funeral it was the fact that it got invaded by a bunch of people and trolled and it's like what were you expecting you know like this this was bound to happen it's it's an online competitive play space and you're just hoping that nobody comes in and ruins it yeah is social etiquette but you're in an environment in which yeah etiquette is irrelevant because there are no consequences we were talking about the forbidden thing right like you're getting told you have to behave and you have to respect it it's like no that's a warning and it's like I'm like I have to respect real space to hell with that right what's the whole idea yeah and then if you want to make video game police like tosses it's never going to work because you can't do anything to them which is also a real fucking thing if you look up bully hunters oh yeah yeah that oh yes I have Rags got a video on bully hunters oh boy yeah I'm not even sure they ever thought it would work it's such a bizarre concept it could never work video games boys yes it's it's dumb right but like that this is I like making fun of this kind of stuff and kind of illustrating it in in my plots right and but before I get into much detail on season 5 I just want to say I ended season 4 with an episode called the spider yes and I thought that's still one of the best episodes ever made and because I really like Craig it was at that point where I realized oh I've got a strong theme here and then I all of a sudden I realized the importance of theme and how it holds everything together and then I think I think I was aware of them the power of thematic subconsciously throughout like writing but now I became really hyper aware of it and oh yeah dude is I'm great but it's it's like a lot of people I guess foolishly learned it's like just having one that's what you got to do it's like it was executions always about execution right and so I really I was really pleased with how that episode turned out where at the beginning of the episode Arbiter's terrified of spiders and at the end of it he's best friends with a spider he becomes friends with it and and then it ends they're playing Majora's Mask and the last shot is is link opening a chest and getting a hundred rupees and it cuts the credits right there I just thought that worked really well because it's like a parallel of like going into the dark tunnel that's scary and then you get the reward at the end of it you know in this case it's the friendship with something that he would never thought in a million years he'd be friends with it's just funny because I'm flashing forward to how some of these stories go and I'm like oh man yeah I mean yes but oh man yeah right and there's also there's a literal spider in the hallway in that that part of Majora's Mask I'm talking about I don't know if you guys played Majora's Mask but there's once you get the bomber's notebook and you go underground it's a tunnel with a spider at the end of it and at the beginning of the episode Arbiter doesn't want to go down the tunnel because there's a spider at the end mm- that was actually had a scare of spiders and a scare of the spiders in Zelda like that was always a very you know I'm not I'm not sure if there's a reason to be afraid of spiders up in North America but down here there's plenty of reasons oh you guys are having a hell of a time with spiders down there I heard about like the fires and then the fires created a habitable environment for a shitload of spire spiders all of a sudden spiders they have fire spiders yeah the fire breath of the spider the world of warcraft they're just like right well I mean that's that's the thing like the fires got rid of all the koalas but then in their place are all the shit ones you know the shitty out of all that we don't like because you know we got our cuddly critters who are also venomous like platypuses but then then the spiders that you have a lot of reason like I I the list of spiders in this country that are very dangerous and not only dangerous but just a common in households in dark corners fortunately I don't live in Sydney but fun a web spider is a nice fun one that stands up on its back legs and like flares it's a it's um fangs in the air so it's like posturing this is how bold these spiders are like fucking terrifying oh they're horrifying and they're how did it happen how did Australia end up with all these things once described Australia as a beta test like God's beta test when he was creating the world trying to figure out what he could everything goes there first after Noah's Ark landed wherever the fuck and Noah got all the weird animals and said all right y'all need to go just y'all need to go somewhere else well I think find an island or something because you can't hang out here with the rest of us all the cool animals to what you already would near them haha natural explanation for a lot of this is that um all of the continent's starting splitting apart that the ecosystems began to form independently I mean it was only really humans who decided to walk between these places but the animals largely stuck to themselves and so you know that's the reason why Australia is the only place that has must suit feels and it's the reason why you know like Europe is the place that had rabbits and um and wolves and stuff like that but Australia is this weird one because it's really not connected to any of the other continents in any significant way so basically developed all on its own unless of course you buy into the conspiracy theory that Australia is actually in South America and it's a big why made up no no no Australia is not real yeah I was going to say we know it's not real uh it's obvious I've seen the alleged photos of Australia obviously fake no one would ever make it that over the top like we're not we're not cool with lies on this podcast but we entertain yours make it a little more believable if it was actually real jumping rats that have pouches I mean what is this yeah it's weird so someone said it broke off from pangea first and everything got hyper competitive there it's actually I was going to say like Australia is the xbox live of the yeah I love the idea that all of the animals had to just keep out evolving each other because they kept killing each other yeah all of the things I always have difficulty I just pulled up a map of pan pan gea or pan guy I think it's what it's cool and I like how they have a map that shows where all of the countries are and and yeah you can see like Africa yeah it's cool and Africa isn't a country but I get what you're saying oh yeah no I know it's stupid like I was the I don't think Africa is stupid that's fucked up dude but yeah I love I personally love Africa but yes Australia looks like it's right at the bottom even low and then Antarctica and then you know they will split off that's um it's yeah I think that's how the ecosystems form because really there's there's no explanation like the animals here are a weird I like them a lot but I mean koalas are weird man like there's not really you know koalas our possums platypus is a very weird animals um a kid there's there's nothing really the only marsupials we've got over here our possums marsupials like your possums are they hold on we we need to this is something we need to know right I I I just heard that they are I'm sorry to interrupt do you mind if I just take a few minutes to go to the bathroom I'll be right back I'm sorry okay alright thanks we're going to let John do it most of the time we prevent people from peeing on EFAP that is a rule our possums are marsupials um they are indeed marsupials possums they're nifty looking up see a picture of a Virginia opossum there are I mean do you have the thing like possums like to crawl around in people's roofs that's kind of like well that's just a lot it's just a lot of animals do it's just a place for them you know yeah like raccoons right bring up spiders by the way if you had like a an ethical experiment where a child is brought up without seeing a single animal their entire life all the way up till they're like age 20 and then you present them a spider a rather large one I feel like they'd be afraid of it right I think that spiders have a lot of reasons to be a they don't really have and I think I think there's a reason why even bears like bears are not friendly animals depending on which species they are but yet people get teddy bears it's like why it's it's really easy to I guess because they're anti-corrified yeah and their friend well anti-corrified mammals like mammals or like the closer they are looking to us the more we're like yeah they're probably friendly yeah like it's the reason why a lizard is less scary than a snake because it's still got four limbs you know it's it's still got a whereas a snake it might have a face but you know it slithers around like it's it's it's the same reason that people are afraid of those scary arse-looking fish at the bottom of the ocean God yeah because they're horrifying they're like from your nightmare they're like thului monsters yeah the best fighters I think you're right because first of all eight legs you're like why the fuck do you have any legs what's going on there the fact that it's such an absurd design as in it's this blob in the middle and then all the eight legs come around it and you're just like that's that's some alien shit right there and then the fact that they're they're dark creatures and they move fast and they stick to corners you're just like mmm and they curl up walls you know that's a kind of yeah and they're fast as well in their own sort of you know in relation to their size I guess and it's a whole idea of like you know ants are not very scary because they're small but ants close up a terrifying oh yeah I remember honey I shrunk the kids man they at one point right and there's a reason why she lob you know it's just like a big version of a scary thing already you know like just it is scary spiders are scary animals Mola doesn't like dark creatures was only a matter of time until the truth came out yep I should have said I just hate black creatures that would have gone over better funny I was I always tell this story about like I just like telling people that platypus are incredibly dangerous because you know platypus is a really cool nifty looking animals you know I platypus cute and then you find out that platypus has have pincers that are so venomous that if you're stung the pain is so intense that morphine will not relieve it for like four months as well oh oh no is that the kind of thing then that you say you were stung in the arm people would opt to have it chopped off or well your arm is gonna balloon your arm is basically never gonna work again that's how powerful the venom or I'm not sure if it's venom or if it's like a toxin but yeah if you see a platypus and it seems you're you're in a lot of trouble more so than if you got stung by a snake or bitten by a snake rather like you'd actually be better off like a brown snake will kill you like a platypus isn't going to kill you but poison there are no anti-venoms for platypus stings so if you ever see one don't touch it if I ever see one I promise you I will not touch it just for you Fringy if I ever come across a ever come across a platypus nope well platypuses are actually really oh my favorite part about platypus is they are they are the chattest animals in the animal kingdom like platypuses are very territorial like kill basically any man that comes into their domain and so platypus is are women outnumber platypus is 10 to one so there are no incels in the platypus world me you know all platypus is of the chads and they're getting all the stasis and more than one like how stasis is just the word to describe like attractive woman you're a stasis and then it's so funny the carrot is what it is I don't know I wonder if they got to change the name of our suit lady in spider-man she's called well she wasn't even she wasn't even in far from home was she so she wasn't cause I guess they could cause it was Jennifer Connolly that's probably like an expensive voice role to get you also got didn't didn't hear talk to did you talk to Friday at all you talk to our Edith Edith yeah as human like is Karen anyway where will we yeah back I'm back now right so yeah we're talking about I was just finishing talking about season for and how I started taking screenwriting and plot devices seriously and thematic unity yes yes exactly and so when I was doing a fifth season I was really heavily inspired by not just breaking bad but the sopranos and Dexter and there's a bunch of like serialized shows I was super into and I realized I was so compelled by them because they were serialized and I was just like wow what happens next I got to watch the next one because like for the most part before that I was just watching shows where everything resets by the end of the episode and it's it's that's okay well I remember do you remember the family guy episode where he loses his job wherever it is and then at the end they comment on it like isn't aren't things supposed to feel kind of normal at the end of I think if they say at the end of a day to try to you know they're trying to be meta and it's like but you didn't get your job back and he's like yeah I didn't yeah it's like I think I know I know the exact episode you're talking about yeah that's funny I like that because at the same time you conversely Mr Burns loses all his money in an episode becomes like a humanitarian and then goes back to being an evil billionaire in 20 minutes like they right put him on a huge arc all it takes place in that amount of time and it's just like yep gotta get back to the level and the benefit of that is you can watch all of them out of order then you can just be like yeah whatever this all makes sense soul following but if you do serialize and you're like whoa don't spoil it for me and I got a start episode one yes there's pros and cons definitely to both but I found myself much more compelled by the serialized format of whenever whenever it would cut to credits it's like oh god I gotta what put on the next one and I wanted to I wanted to have that feeling for my show I wanted to see if I could do it you know I just I wanted to challenge myself with a new kind of format and and then I I decided okay I got to build this season around one big event and then you know of like I said before also the fact that the wedding episode in season three was a fan favorite and so I was like okay well what if I do a wedding again but just on a bigger scale and the whole season would revolve around it and build up to it and it started with like a flash forward so I was experimenting with non-linear storytelling for the first time my god which which I really liked as well he's doing both sort of like yeah flash forward back yeah exactly but not necessarily just like flashing forward in the cold open like I was also just like the idea of just jumping around in the story like at any point but there's like there being a purpose to it we've seen prestige yes that is yeah I love I like on the first watch through many people can be utterly confused cause they're like you jump from three different timelines in different pieces and you get flashbacks and forwards and characters remembering or you know recanting or even predicting there's a lot to absorb and keep track of yes yeah it's a bit of a confusing watch the first time I saw it yeah but I remember I liked it a lot and I didn't I didn't do a lot of that in my show like the the jumping around that I would do was just basically at the beginning of some episodes I would do a flash forward as like a cold open and then I would jump back to the present for beginning of Act 1 that's when I kind of changed my formula up a bit as well so like I would have a teaser and then Act 1 Act 2 Act 3 for each episode and so I did season 5 and I had yeah the villain was Trent who isn't a very good villain I don't think in retrospect he's not very well flashed out he's a bit of an everyman bad guy he seems like a very normal bad person yes so I didn't put that much thought into the antagonist side of it it's so funny how that happens with a lot of stories as they progress the it all you could argue it starts out rocky and then the protagonists assorted the structure is sorted and it's like oh shit what about villains if you look at the MCU villains were weak for a very long time they still haven't necessarily fixed it yet because yes I agree most people would agree that you got Vulture Thanos Zemo Zemo look like he but low low key yeah villain anymore you know he's almost transitions out of that role and like basically everyone's favorites are all from like you know the the the the late teens onwards in terms of the amount of films that have come out it's insane it's just a yeah because they what they used to do and this is a trope that people pick on but it's kind of just true if you watch it they take the hero and they make a version of them that's just evil that's usually what they end up fighting is like Iron Man fights the bigger Iron Man Thor fights his evil Norse brother Hulk fights bigger Hulk yeah and it's even an Iron Man too it's like he's fighting because he's in an Iron Man suit with whips whiplash and he's like I don't care this is like just be him you have to go back to when like the earlier superhero movies like the only good villain I can really think of is Doc Ock from Spider-man to Magneto is another good one yeah Magneto yeah they had lots to work with Magneto from the comics it's just such a thorough character I'd say in terms of motivations is very very clear you could very much build him up you know Green Goblin was campiest fucking Spider-man one but I still think he was yeah strong compared to a lot of early MCU villains yeah wow yeah I mean Green Goblin's better than yeah he's something of a villain himself ah Red Skull oof yeah okay you got me there it's like that's not Captain America but evil it's like what kind of is because he's he's he's got all the super soldier benefits doesn't he America yeah actually sorry I'm wrong he is Captain America but evil he has all he had the serum and it went wrong it gave him all of the abilities but it made him look ugly that was the point it's like oh no all right so yeah it applies to all of them um and then of course Avengers isn't is again we're we're relying on because Loki was the only one out of the early ones people were like he's kind of cool like look he's a character you know right it was um uh what was his name Killian yeah oh god oh one of the worst Killian you did you did and then we got you didn't talk to me he's the exactly he's the one who um wanted to talk to Iron Man and he was like Tony meet me on the roof and well he says like I'll meet you on the roof and then he doesn't show up and he's hated in ever since I pierce yeah he missed an appointment and he hates him and it makes even worse what it's like why have you captured Gwyneth Paltry of Pepperpots why oh I'm your trophy aren't I and he's like yeah it's just like oh my god and this is so far into the MCU it's like guys and you'd think to yourself maybe it's like oh maybe the folks on other stuff it's like no they had a really good villain in the palm of their hand in that film that they ruined and it's people people are often like oh you're obsessed with the comics if you wanted the other bad sorry Mandarin and I'm like I didn't read the comics I liked like I like Ben Kingsley I like the concept of a character that's using magic who probably doesn't believe in magic let alone uses it whatsoever it's like this is great yeah I have issues with Iron Man 3 just and then we have after that we had um the gob I'll wait no it was the L that's right the the the what's his name Maliketh Maliketh I think yeah Maliketh great name to know what happened yeah and then I tell you you name your villain it's gotta be mal something deliciousness man the level and malice is the last and then uh and then it was Robert Redford's guy and winter soldier he was alright is alright yeah and then uh and then we had um Ronan who's yeah just evil bad that was that was the biggest criticism of Guardians of Galaxy one is like your bad guy is just bad guy like yeah yeah yeah he had scary makeup that was his character and that's yeah I guess that's what I'm getting that it's like a lot of the time when you when someone's trying to fix up everything they'll be like ah the villain can just you know be the obstacle and it's like nah the villain needs to be a character make him a character make him someone they're the protagonist of their story I don't think it's any surprise that the strongest films in the MCU have the strongest of villains Vulture Thanos Zemo they're all really good foils remember Ultron yeah well we're about to get the Ultron evil Iron Man sort of except he forgets that he's uploaded himself into the internet so he's able to be defeated I wish he was evil Iron Man like they could have worked with that make him just you know have the same values but I guess corrupt them into eviltisms I think that's what they wanted to do it just didn't really play out No it did not no then he decided I'm going to drop a meteor on Earth and I'm not going to hedge my bets I'm not going to put even one robot like in I don't know Russia somewhere so that I can upload myself to the internet again at any point God that is insanely stupid he's I don't know about you but if I had robot horcruxes around I would they just be all over the place I would net you'd never know not only would I send one to like every single country everywhere I would also put several in caves distant caves like just like stay there wait until I call you you know Ultron seems to forget that he is all of the robots so he has one badass Ultron and then he never creates a bunch of other pretty good Ultrons to why did he just he also destroyed one of himself he destroyed just to be like lol Black Widow you spooked it's like what are you what are you doing that's a value why does he create so many crappy all like he would be better off just making six or seven really good Ultrons like because I mean you kill Black Widow pretty easily if you just had one really good off why did you kill Black Widow oh yeah he wanted her to see his work he's lonely so he didn't kill his main enemy just to take her back so that she could see his work what a stupid character that's a shame that movie didn't work because like to be honest I I kind of liked how Ultron like because he was built by Stark he became this amalgamation of all the worst parts of his personality see that is what I want and I just don't think they managed to get there like no it wasn't executed that way you have like the scene where he lands and he's like ah kid you're going to give your father a you're going to make me cry or something like that it's like oh right that's what they're going for that he's almost like a father to Ultron and the Ultron hat and it's like what ah so much potential why why couldn't why right yeah like evil evil robot that Tony Stark makes to save the world who has a walked perception of how to save the world is that's cool idea but and I mean it's almost unfair I kind of feel bad for just waiting he's has two movies that people shit on him for that a lot of he had no control over someone's calling this out in chat did you guys forget that vision use the mindstone to lock him into his body when you're misrepresenting the film yeah so we think that's extremely stupid extremely how do you even do this how do you lock someone Ultron if you if you transfer Ultron to a USB right and then that's it and then the vision does his thing has vision prevented the USB's copy of vision of Ultron to get back onto the internet are you kidding me no like stupid how is how could you possibly pull Ultron out of the internet that doesn't make any saids and also does that mean that Ultron has been cancelled because of his Ultron he has like a Wi-Fi router in each of the robots of something like even that though transfer him to a hard drive disconnect it from the internet and then vision does his thing it wouldn't have affected that hard drive now would it also whoever said that they had to destroy all the robots because none of them could leave yeah they left they could get back onto the internet your argument is wrong you should feel bad yeah but like like I said I'm I'm still hold on this point here Ultron uploads himself to the internet he then infects himself into every piece of technology that was ever connected to the internet now with how much every human is pulling out and putting in usb is Ultron is still out there he is still he's waiting he's waiting for that guy to put that usb into watch Pirates the Caribbean 3 again and it's going to jump right onto the internet and spread everywhere all over again it's basically yeah it's never going away Ultron is like yeah he's he's he's they said I don't know how the stove works that's just how it works like bullshit you can't just say that's how it fucking works the internet I like the mind stove is compatible with like usb c I guess like the it was it was over the second they said he got into the internet it was over I would you can't you just can't you have you have to like one robot get away and then have it be but we need to come they should have said something along the lines of only this consciousness or something like that right so you couldn't just be like oh yeah he's got a YouTube account now it's just what it's such a stupid movie yeah but I want to I want to clarify that's not like our only issue with that film is this and I'm someone I'm a big fan of Joss Whedon's work and I really like the Avengers and I like the MCU but God damn that movie has so many writing problems holy shit and it's just a matter the film is a stepping stone and that's why it got destroyed it was supposed to set up a whole bunch of other movies Civil War is a much easier film to view as like Avengers God yes that's the real of Edges too I like to think so that probably should have been the end of our phase two if it was like a really good second act low point you know like the end of phase two that was that was Captain America right like Captain America movies right the best one and the best movie in the mcu right and we will kill people who say otherwise John do you have a favorite favorite Marvel movie are you not really into them no I love them man I mean yeah that's a bunch of shallow villains but like I mean I've always been a big comic book fan I grew up watching last Spider-Man the animated series and X-Man and shit no that's X-Man yes yeah yeah that's yeah that's what was yeah so so I get a child is joy from watching those movies as flawed as they are I really enjoyed infinity war yeah yeah yeah yeah was like good that movie felt so big in scope I was just like wow this is this felt like an event you know what do you think event game not as good as infinity war but I thought it was fun it's a fun that's that's a kind of thing to say time he's romp yeah it is enjoyable I are I think um it seems like the unpopular opinion is infinity war is better but I firmly believe infinity war is better than I don't even really think it's a competition I feel like it's I don't think it's competition infinity war the main problems with infinity war are the are the stones the stone problem is the same in end game but well is are not much makes any sense in end game at all there's there's countless things that we did a whole podcast on it it's lots of things that don't make sense filter sprinkle that in with just a a much much weaker villain yeah Thanos was pretty awesome in a infinity war in an end game he's a lot more like Ronan it's a it's a bizarre decision that they made to to instead instead of carrying on with Thanos that we had to get a totally new thing and I see the room and Neville I destroy the room it's just and I think infinity war has this break neck pace like it really feels like everything is racing towards they are and ending yeah they are it's very it's for all the stuff that's going on and all the characters that they're juggling it doesn't feel like it's funky and overly full and overfilled no it's um it really it really every time that there's a massive like crescendo and and what's happening it it slows down for a little bit so it's a focus on the characters and then there's a nice big action like another leaf again and I mean it I guess that the funny thing is right like the real big battle is the Wakanda battle but I'm much more invested in the in the Titan on his own planet yeah that one's where the real battle is happening Wakanda ones weird and well with the my sister and a boyfriend of one of the near Christmas as I can't remember and she's like the most normie of normie ever people watching movies loves more stuff the second they were like open the barrier at the front she went what I was like it's like she was like what even who cares if they come in from behind just just what to deal with them spread out and get them yeah like why hold them on yourselves that decision does frustrating in retrospect why why do you charge the big dogs and fight them melee when that's their only method of attack and you could choose range of tax please choose like I feel like these people don't realize that you don't in World War One charging the enemy liner when there are a bunch of machine guns was highly effective highly inefficient strategy like you couldn't learn roughly I learned very quickly that it didn't work and I know the ultimate logic of being like we'll convince these mindless dogs to all come through that one opening instead of going around it's like you don't even know that that's going to happen they could still go around and wouldn't it make more sense to open it and close like it doesn't make sense absolutely if you are going to open it open it and then close it and then open it again don't let them all in at once yeah why would you let them all in like then you got like you got black pet that like open the fan here and then even the woman's like I'm dude she's like what like a really stupid idea like yeah open the barrier nice they would have made for really fucking awkward and clunky action scene but it's like open the barrier at A and then B and then C and close them all behind each other as well just so they walk through and then get cut off just confused the shit out of the enemies opening the barriers different places and closing them immediately after just fuck with them I guess I guess the funny thing is everybody wants their charge because Lord of the rings had their charge and it was awesome but they forget that this is a science fiction universe where you have ranged weapons and air support Oh my God and how is there a really bad idea how much in battle woman do the people with guns run towards their targets yeah that happens all the time in john wicks so you're a battleman in the end oh yeah john wick as well yeah that's yeah the second and third is I have a gun I'd better try to stab them with the with my gun with my gun a possum you know we were all possums at some point we're gradually making it through the seasons that is the plan now that is officially the structure is that okay what we're doing Oh absolutely yeah we we're doing three acts we're halfway through act two maybe we're gonna hit a low point soon Oh we were talking about villains that's how we got onto this right right so you were more interested in trying to I guess move on build your villains a bit differently yeah although it took me a while to learn that lesson like even with season six I still hadn't learned at that point how to flesh out a villain well be honest with you like because like a caricature these are all like impressions I got when I was watching I think what's your favorite season for me would you say um the interesting thing is I think I really enjoy season six I think season six has a few plot holes when it comes to like the whole Frag Band there are a couple instances where like the Frag Band doesn't work necessarily in the way that but despite that I really like I like what season six is about and I like where the characters go in that season um though admittedly I also pretty fond of season seven but it's it's you know it's the dark season well yeah it get yeah that was going to be my take basically it's like I always remember 11 season six and seven seven was question box and I was like huh and I rewatched them I was like oh no I love both season six and seven seven was question box so I was like holy fuck like season season seven man it's it's as dramatic as as some other TV shows I've seen have a dark season the the like we're going to get some real shit happening but um yeah season six I just remembered being a lot more engaged because of the fact that our villains had they weren't just main leader and then subordinate people the fact that they had names the fact that they had dialogue that made them individual from each other I was already like ooh this is more because it's not just R.B. chief and then some guy which again right can work it's just that now we've got big Arbiter guy who's kind of mysterious curt with people and also the leader not entirely sure of his motivations yet femme fatal obviously that's a bit of an archetype then yeah guy who almost is on par with chief felt like attitude with the I was just like this is interesting yeah I understand these full people with the average road being like the most print the dude who's just this complete asshole to women it's like yeah not being the one who's actually the principle one who's like he doesn't know actually I actually just didn't like tosses like no I don't want to take down the network I like video games which felt very much like that would be a thing in real life someone could potentially join up to for one reason and then they're like woes is getting a bit out of hand actually right yeah defector and and plus I think Adam everybody likes at well I said like they like the character that yeah appreciate the story yeah he plays a role in the story yeah yeah what I personally liked about season six is that they're all dispatched in an ironic way by the end right and I I had I had planned that out really far in advance so um the order was that um Adam got taken out basically because of his own his attitude his lifestyle it killed him basically yes yeah in a way they all kind of led to their own demise yeah and then I think it was Duncan was the Duncan got taken out by Kylie got taken out by the girl that he was constantly being like oh girls can't play video games this shit the misogynist who's out smarted by a woman yeah the child who's uh arrested or disciplined by his mom and arrested and then uh I'll like chief out smodding yeah yeah right with hologram that was awesome hahaha yeah hahaha you know what's good so this is actually the reverse what I was talking about earlier right so mechanically the game can hamper you and you also have distractions like for example how frag banning may or may not work but um when you get a payoff that's entirely within the game's mechanics it like it blows up in the in the view as experienced I imagine there's like oh shit it wasn't fucking all grab right yes yeah I enjoy it like taking certain mechanics like people are familiar with how the game works obviously a lot of fans of the show and when I incorporate exactly how something works in the game into the show and it's used in the plot in some way I think that's people really appreciate that and I certainly do I mean that you got to have a load of halo fans in your audience so they're all going to be looking out for references and and instead of created fantasy mechanics for your story like mechanics that are not only for the story but actually mechanics is like oh they'll easily get more endeared to it because I mean it's very relatable you know it's one of those things where I'm I'm not familiar with the show really but even when you talk about um uh where was it us we were talking about esports earlier yeah and I was saying that it's very relatable thing that's something they feel they can go and do so in a show like this I can imagine people like oh yeah he did a thing that I could do so that's uh that you can they use people to it and not only like is it a mechanical payoff just having chief out smart someone who's quite intelligent mechanically it's just like whole out smart them basically by like like leaning into the fact that he's an idiot it's believable that he would walk in like just walk straight out to the open just like oh hey Arvin and what's up don't mind me standing here in the open yeah around season five and six is when I started making my own music for the show too and I don't like your tunes by the way oh thank you they are pretty sweet I think I got shit he said shit I was had to pay I was about to say schmick but then I schmick my you're too is the pretty schmick man I think a lot of them are like in season five that I used aren't that good like I I got better at it as the years went by and I it's something I really enjoyed like I love kind of dicking around in FL studio that's what I use and using just since synthesizers and I got some kick packs and snares and I I'll do that for hours I thought of that's not doesn't even feel like worked to me whatever it's worth Arvin the chief theme is in my head and it probably will be till I'm dead but yeah so I started using my own music cause there's a good thing too with all the fucking copyright oh yeah claims and flags and tracks that I bought years ago are getting like flagged now by fucking vaguely named media conglomerates you know it's just like you claim by such and such organization I'm like what the fuck is that there's just some kind of vague conglomerate yeah I've had some pretty interesting run-ins with these weird companies that do that it's like its own industry of this stuff and it's terrible shit well yeah what's going on with metal seems to be that his job wick video was taken down by someone who's not connected to job wick by the looks of things already like that is some kind of weird this is this is just a theory rig