The David Feldman radio program is made possible by listeners like you.  The New York Times says the Mushroom Cure minds a great deal of laughter from disabling pain. Time Out New York says the Mushroom Cure is riveting. A true life tour de force joining us is the star and the author of the Mushroom Cure. Adam Strauss, hello Adam Strauss. Hi David. Thank you for having me. And thank you for that intro. Thank you for doing this. You are the winner of overall excellence at the New York Fringe Festival. The Mushroom Cure, let me remind you what your one man show is about. The Mushroom Cure inspired by a scientific study showing that hallucinogenic mushrooms can potentially cure obsessive-compulsive disorder, Adam Strauss embarked on his own program of vigilante psychopharmacology. What is obsessive-compulsive disorder? Well what is obsessive-compulsive disorder? What is obsessive-compulsive disorder? That's good. Have you seen my bit? If you have OCD raise your hand six times. What is OCD? I think that's sort of the common, the popular conception of it is repetitive behaviors. And that's true. I mean I look at it as an addiction along with a whole host of other behaviors. You can view it as an attempt to minimize or eliminate pain that actually creates more pain. So someone with OCD will typically have an unwanted thought or an emotion. Usually both, you'll have anxiety and you know a thought. The thought could be my hands aren't clean enough. And so to get rid of that emotion you'll engage in a behavior, say hand washing. That works actually in the short term. Like all addictions, OCD it does work in the very short term. You'll feel a little bit of relief 30 seconds a minute. But then of course the doubt creeps back in, you know maybe you missed a spot. So you'll do it again. And the irony is this attempt to avoid pain.  Okay so the hand washing is not, is a symptom of something deeper? Yeah. I would say it's interesting because as I've met, partially through doing the show, people who have a lot of people with OCD, the symptoms can often be very different. I didn't have hand washing. For me it revolved around decision making. So I would make a decision, could be a totally trivial decision, what to wear, what to eat. Sometimes even what side of the street to walk down. And then I would have a, at times an overwhelming compulsion to reverse that decision. But it didn't come out of nowhere. There was a thought. There was some rationale. Oh it's sunny around the other side of the street. I need sunlight at the middle. In the winter I need vitamin D so I'd cross over. But then, and I talk about this in my show, but then I'd realize wait I'm not wearing sunscreen. You know, I need to worry about ultraviolet radiation exposure. And I would sometimes actually zigzag down the street. I mean, as insane as that sounds, and that's a fairly minor example. Before we dig down deep, and I haven't seen the show, so I don't know what you're willing to discuss. I don't like gossip on the show. I don't like, you know, we just had Sheba Mason on the show.  Sorry. You're joking. I'm joking. Yes. And she's Jack. She's great. I like she's daughter. And I always, you know, I don't want any gossip. I don't want to know what it's like to have Jackie Mason as your father. That's gossip. So I want to be careful here about the questions I ask you and how, because I, but you do a one man show which I'm going to see about your OCD and how hallucinogenic mushrooms cured it. So I would throw in the caveat. The show is called the mushroom cure. And what I tell people is that's what I was going for. And we can talk about the actual outcome, but I wouldn't say it was as simple as I took these drugs and they cured me. Okay. Let me ask you a couple of questions and if it's too personal, don't answer. Where'd you grow up? Newton, Massachusetts. Jewish? Yes. Professional parents. Yeah. My father is an oncologist, a lung cancer doctor. My mother was a teacher. Now she works part-time. What did she teach? Reading. Reading disabled kids. Father is a doctor. Father's a doctor. Treats cancer patients. Yes. You like your dad? Yeah. I'm very close with my parents. Brothers and sisters? On the oldest. I have a brother who's three years younger and a sister who's seven years younger. So the oldest brother is the spokesman for the father. He has to help control the family? Wait. Spokesmen are helped control the... Usually the rebels are the younger children. Oh, I see where you're going with this. Spokesmen for my father, because I believe very strongly in his work, he's actually done a lot of public health stuff that I basically anti-smoking and pro-screening for lung cancer. So I actually, to the extent I ever can talk about his work, I try to. So I am a spokesman in that way. But no. In terms of... Maintaining discipline in the family? No. I was the breaker of discipline. I was... So the story, the family story, which... Sure. Let's just... I want to paint a picture. Because I don't know... I think this... I know your work. Yeah. And you know I'm a big fan. Thank you. And likewise. And I don't understand why you're not, like, more successful. And we can talk about that too. But I blame no one for that but myself. But here's an anecdote that I think is... Well, let me ask you some questions. You go to college. I was going to give you the family... Did you go to college? Yes. Did you get the degree? Yes. What did you major in? I majored in psychology with a minor in music. And where'd you go? Brown. Hard to get into. Yeah. How old are you? I am... You know what? Someone told me... I'm 41. Someone told me two weeks ago I shouldn't say my age. That's not true. Yeah. Because you look about 15 years younger. Thank you. Unfortunately there's no video evidence with this podcast. You went to Brown, which is a lot harder to get into than Harvard. I don't think that's true. Yes. Everybody wants to go to Brown now. Okay. I'll take that. Okay. And what was your college experience like? Were you a good student? I was so brown. I don't know if this is true anymore. You can take classes past fail. So I didn't have OCD at this time but I've always been obsessive. And we can talk more about that if you'd like. So at that point in my life I was very obsessed with being a jazz pianist. And so I practiced six or eight hours a day. I wasn't very good by the way. I started playing too late. I didn't have a lot of physical talent, but I just force of will to find some sort of identity. So you come from brilliant genes. Your father is a genius. Um... Oncologist. I don't... He's... I have a tremendous amount of admiration for him. He came from nothing. He was the... His parents didn't go to college. Where'd he grow up? Brooklyn or Bronx? He grew up in Queens. Queens. Yeah. Grandparents come from where? So grandparents were born here in New York. Great grandparents Eastern Europe, Russia, Lithuania... Mother of Brilliant. I don't know if I'd say any of us, including myself, are brilliant. I think... Bar Mitzvot? Yes. I'm trying to discern a through line with these questions. I'm trying to pigeonhole you. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Trying to pigeonhole you. Please do, yeah. Fire away. I was Bar Mitzvot. Okay. And did you continue your religious studies after your Bar Mitzvot? I did for a few years after. I went towards... I think it's confirmation, right? We have that too, isn't there? Yeah, yeah. So I don't know if I was actually confirmed, but I took confirmation classes. But you were Bar Mitzvot? I was Bar Mitzvot. You're... Orthodox? I'm gonna guess... I'm gonna guess conservative. No. What's the liberal... Reformed? Reformed, yeah. Okay. Religiously observing family? No. No. Passover? Yes. Fast on Yom Kippur. I gave up the fast... I don't remember how old I was, maybe a teenager, and there was no pressure to maintain it if I didn't want to. Bill Maher says religion is OCD, true or false? I think there's... I've never heard that before, but I think there is elements of truth in that. The rituals. Oh, I wasn't even thinking of rituals. I was thinking the attempt to basically resolve pain, and I would say the pain that religion tries to resolve is uncertainty, which I think is the most fundamental pain of being human. The mushroom cure, Adam Strauss, winner of the New York Fringe Festival award for overall excellence. When did you write this play? I wrote it 2012, is when I started working on it. I did it in Edinburgh in the Fringe There 2012. Were you a stand-up comic at the time? I was, yeah.  Thank you. You really are. I really appreciate that. And I can't wait to see the mushroom cure. When did you... When were you diagnosed with OCD? So I was diagnosed in, it would have been maybe 2003, I'm going to say, around then. So I was, you know, late 20s. Okay. Playing the jazz, playing jazz on the piano for six hours a day. I had given that up long before, but... Is that OCD? No, not necessarily. I... Because I'll tell you. I mean, clearly it's not OCD. If you were a successful jazz pianist, which you could have been, is it fair to say that practicing six hours a day and becoming a world-class jazz pianist is resolving by practicing all that time you're dealing with some unresolved issue by practicing? Is that a form of OCD? No, not at all. So what is OCD then? I'm not clear on it. So let's talk about it. So again, the commonality to me is any behavior that, an addictive behavior. So in my case, decision making was the most prevalent symptom and the most impairing symptom for me. Handwashing is a common one. Checking is very common. And again, the commonality with all these is you're looking for some sort of certainty, some sort of reassurance. So someone will think, well, wait, did I leave my stove on? I'm pretty sure I didn't. But maybe I did. You know what? Let me go back and check. And they'll turn it on and turn it off again. Okay, it's off. And they'll try to leave. Wait, but was it totally off? Or I should go back and check again and people can lose, you know, seven, eight, nine hours. They can lose their lives with this disease. Just checking. Just checking. Just checking. Light switches, stoves, that's a common one. Some people have what's called puro, pure obsessive, trying to just resolve thoughts. So coming from a, I have a mother, I've heard, who always second guesses me, just, and now how much of OCD is nature versus nurture? Because I don't have OCD. I say I do. And I do obsess on, but I obsess on the right things. Right, and that's the thing to keep in mind is I think obsessing is necessary and positive in the right context. And I'll give you a good context. I can be obsessive about my work, my material, and that's useful. I think, I don't want to say you have to be, but I think most people who are successful in this area are. It's when you're, you're focusing on things where there's no real return on that investment. Checking your stove for nine hours, ironically, it doesn't make you more sure you're less sure. The more it goes on, and these people are reduced to just, you know, they're totally frantic because at a certain point, well, it's almost an existential thing. You realize you can't be absolutely sure of anything, even these very basic physical things. I think I turned off the stove, but can I be sure my misremembering? Okay, so earlier, I asked to pigeonhole you and dealing with my stereotypes of Jew successful. Jew. Sounds accusatory. Yes. Jew, doctor, that you could have been raised. Did you do this? Did you do that? Did you do that? Oh, I wasn't. I wasn't. Well, this was the end of it. Let me make sure about that. Because the stereotype is, did you study your half-torch? Did you practice the piano? Did you write the thank you notes? That's how did. Well, the funny thing is, I would say I had that, but it was in my own brain. Nobody was saying to you. No, I was, my parents were, I think they did a great job given what they had to work with. What I mean by that is I came out of the womb, and the nurse told my mother that I did something she'd never seen before, which is when the nurse went to put in my, I guess their antibiotic eye drops, I swatted her hand away. Now, presumably, I didn't have enough visual resolution and muscular coordination to do that intentionally, but I do think there's something to that. I was extremely obstinate and driven from the family stories from the earliest age, so I think my parents did a good job not being too disciplinary, but also not trying to give me completely free reign. But if they aired on one side, it was maybe giving me a little bit too much free reign. Do you believe in God? I think that word is probably the most problematic word in any language. So I think if there's something beyond us to connect to, I think it has to be an individual connection. I think the idea of basing your life on someone else's connection who lived thousands of years ago is literally insane, or not insane, but it's just a waste of your own. I mean, if there is a God, he made me individual and you individually, I don't think he wants us to just, you know, model ourselves on someone who lived thousands of years ago. Engage with him yourself, it yourself. I had another show about this, so I've done a lot of it. Yeah, oncology, being the son of an oncologist. That's tough. That's tough work. It was.  So how much of that bleeds into your childhood? Not much in that I think my father was aware of that, or the danger of that. There were, though, a few times, and it's very touching for me to remember this, that I remember seeing him crying, and I would ask him, and he'd, you know, say, oh, you know, I lost this patient, who I really care about. So I'm just trying to figure out nature versus nurture when it comes to OCD. Here's, do you want my joke on it? So at least for me, I would say I probably had certain predispositions towards obsessing, and at a young age, I didn't have OCD, but I had what would today be called body dysmorphic disorder. From a very young age, seven or eight, I was obsessed with my lips. I thought they were hideously ugly. Well they are. Thank you. Yes. So that's not dysmorphic. It's a relapse. I'm going to sue Alex, because he's clearly the one with the money in this operation. Okay.  No, seriously. No, you're right. I realize that. But it was literally ten years of my life that I was obsessed with the idea that I was hideously ugly. I attributed all of my life's problems to this. That wasn't until I was in college where I had enough contrary evidence in the form of positive attention from women that I eventually accepted that, oh maybe I'm not a deformed monster, and I'm not exaggerating. I really thought I was a deformed monster. So the fact that I could get so obsessed about an idea that I think most objective observers would say is false, I'm not a deformed monster. That was there, I think, from birth.  Thank you. And I said to him, I said to Alex, I don't understand why this guy isn't more successful. When I watch you perform, there are women in the audience who definitely are turned on by you. Isn't that interesting? Sometimes. That's interesting. What's interesting specifically? Is that the brain? That I had that obsession. Yeah. Yeah. I think, yes, and I think it gets into deeper issues as to why to assume that form, but the obsessiveness, I guess, was the point I'm making, was there at an early age. And I saw psychologists, Newton has or had the highest per capita of psychiatrists and psychologists of any city in the US. So it was not unusual to see a psychologist then, but I did from an early age, a lot of it was this very volatile sort of relationship with my parents. Volatile. Yeah, because I wanted my way from a very early age. My mother would tell me to clean up my toys. No. Just because you're an adult, I don't have to do what you say.  No. No, no, they were, and I've talked to her about it, you know, now that we're adults and we have a very easy relationship, I think they were very cognizant of not coming down too hard on me because I think they realized that it was temperamental. But like. So how? OK, how? Well, let me just bring this home for you. How much am I digging here that's uncomfortable? Oh, not at all. I really, I don't hold anything back. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Virgin? I think tonight's the night. I saw the way Alex was looking at me on the way in. If you have, do you mind if I ask you? Yeah, go for it. I mean, how old were you when you lost your virginity? 18. How was my freshman year of college? Hm. Fract party. I mean, all the stereotypes. OK. And was that an eye-opener for you about? I feel like you're more thoughtfully mulling over that answer than anything else I've given you. I'm always interested in how people lose their virginity. Yeah. Yeah, let's get it. Because hopefully one day it'll happen for me. All right. OCD. So I would assume. Well, I have OCD. I still have it where I keep polishing the helmet of in the left side of my shaft with my hand. I keep polishing my penis. I like how something wrong you took to get to the fact is your penis. My head is on the mic. I like though that you think out loud. And I like it on stage two. I love the last set I saw you do where you were working out the stuff from Montreal. And it was really, it's so instructive to watch you work off notes. Because you really do let us see the gears turning. And it actually helps me as a writer seeing that. Oh, I think Alex doesn't agree with me. He's my manager. Or maybe he does agree, I'm not sure. I think if I just giving an expression that I would categorize as sort of derisive snorting. Yeah, yes. I think my act would be I'd be more successful as a comedian if I just showed all the gears. That I literally brought my notes up, told the jokes, then discussed the jokes with the audience. It would be a much more satisfying performance. But it would be the height of unprofessionalism. But what does that mean, professionalism? I think that's audience expectations which are fluid in comedy. We can, Andy Kaufman would be the classic example, but there's so many others. We can change that. At the height of my standup prowess, there were nights where I would go to the Improv in Los Angeles and it would be a pack crad on a Saturday night. And I'd just take out my notes and start reading jokes.  Because the way you deliver jokes, even when you're not working off notes, is so it's the way you talk now which has a certain intensity. Actually, intensity wasn't the word. Purpose. Deliberate. There's a deliberate quality to it that I think is hilarious, especially with, I mean, your material is great. And some of it is unexpectedly, I don't want to say lowbrow. But I am. Well, I do the same thing.   I think it serves the purpose of A, hey, I don't take myself too seriously. And B, it's just unexpected and surprises, obviously. Let's go back to the mushroom cure. Adam Strauss. I appreciate how often you're saying my name. Well, I'm curious. OK, so you have OCD. It's diagnosed in the early aughts. Did you try medication? Yes, I was on medic. So I was on medication even previous to that for, as I was saying, I saw a psychologist. There was a generalist called Malaise, which I don't think is that unusual, teenagers. But it's kind of overrated. I've been saying a shrink since I was 18. Yeah, I mean, for me, it was probably eight. But I wasn't on medication until I was maybe 17 or 18. So, yeah, I'd already been on the medications for depression are the same as the medications for OCD.  What do you mean? I mean, there's never been a, I don't want to go off on this rant. Most people, if you ask them, they'll say, oh yeah, depressed people, they have a chemical imbalance. There's never been any finding whatsoever that people with depression have lower serotonin or dopamine levels than people without depression. The actual finding is that serotonin and dopamine vary a lot. So there are depressed people with high serotonin, normal people with low serotonin. So the idea that these are, we basically don't know what's going on. But they have found that by giving more serotonin, it helps depression. Yes, but if you look at now, there's more and more evidence and I don't want any listeners to go off their medication. The evidence is scant at best. It was a lot of cherry-pricking of clinical trials, the clinical trials for, again, I have to turn this into a rant, but Paxil, which I was on for over a decade, the FDA approval was based on, I believe it was 48 clinical trials showing positive results. It turned out Freedom of Information Act, people found out there were 47 other trials that weren't published that showed negative results, or no results. And how was it, what was it like getting off Paxil?  That was, I tried and failed several times. We now understand more about SSRI withdrawal. And Paxil is one of the most difficult ones to withdraw from because it has a short half-life.  Didn't mean to turn this into a psychology lecture. No, no, no, no, no. But to answer your question, I was on many medications. Hospitalized? I was never hospitalized for OCD, but it was close. Yeah, I've been there. It was close. Yeah. What for? Depression. Yeah. Anxiety. Close. I think it was not so much. The hospitalization was more a reflection, not being hospitalized, I think, was more of a reflection of my health care plan than my condition. In that, that was the only way you could actually get care was if you... No, I didn't get hospitalized. But you're saying you had you been getting care more consistently. No, well, I, you know, I... First of all, I was also in Las Vegas at the time. And I think once I got out of Las Vegas, I was fine. Did you live in Vegas? No, I was working in Vegas, and I just had a complete meltdown. And I remember what Eli Wiesel said when it lifted. They asked Eli Wiesel about Auschwitz, and he said, there's no God there. Wow. And I remember thinking about Vegas. There's no God here. You come to Vegas to get away from God. Yeah. And what did you expect? It's human appetite there, so... Yeah, it's... So once I left Vegas, I was stuck there for a week. A lot of it lifted. But that's me, not you. So then you tried mushrooms. Yeah, so I... Accidentally? Or... No, I... There was a study per the blurb you read earlier that I read. I stumbled across it online in a reputable journal, the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry. This goes back, I think, to the 60s, this study. No, this study, this was the first... One of the first sort of new wave psychedelic studies. Now there's a ton of them, or not a ton. It's still a trickle, but there are maybe two dozen that have been completed or are ongoing right now. But this was 2000, December 2006. And basically, small study, only nine patients, but all of them had significant remission of symptoms by giving them psilocybin, which is the active compound in mushrooms. And I tried mushrooms once in college. It hadn't really worked, probably because I was on antidepressants, which tend to often block the effects of psychedelics. And... Would your doctor recommend that? Mushrooms and antidepressants. Oh, to you at the same time? There actually is some risk now that serotonin syndrome. So probably not. I don't even remember who I was seeing at that time. But yeah, so I really had no experience with psychedelics. Now my understanding of psychedelics, I know not to take them because I don't want certain doors unlocked that can't be... Well, that's okay. I don't want to unlock. You want to keep them locked, which is a choice that you can make. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not so sure once you open them, you can... Well, actually, let me say something about that. I don't think... I think if you can make that choice, great. But I think for... I think often that choice is not a choice we can really make in that we think we're locking the door. But the demons are seeping under the door jam and knocking at the door. And so I feel like... So okay, some of the demons come out and then what happens? Well, I mean, even if you keep... You think the door is locked, but it's not really locked. Or the door is locked, but you can't enjoy your life because you're constantly checking the door and making sure that door is still locked or you're looking back over your shoulder. To extend the metaphor. And that's part of the OCD. I would say that's part of human suffering in general in that we try to avoid or repress difficult material, emotions, memories. But it's in there. So the psilocybin... So then the demons come out? It can have that effect, yes. It can have that effect. And that can be... I would think that would be absolutely horrifying. Did that happen to you? No. I don't think I have... I was going to say a silly thing. I don't have any demons. Of course I do, but I don't... There was never an experience of horrible memories emerging.   But did you take the psilocybin... Now let me ask you this, is it a mushroom or is the actual pill that you can take? With the research they're doing, the clinical research and they're doing a lot at NYU right now, actually with cancer patients, not for the cancer, but for the anxiety, they give them a pill. In my case, I didn't have access to that, so it was a mushroom. They give them a psilocybin pill for anxiety? For crippling anxiety, that really impairs their ability to have any sort of life. When I think of psilocybin, I think of anxiety. I think that... Well, but actually, don't they also use caffeine to treat anxiety with kids? Well, they use stimulants to have a paradoxical effect with like ADD. Yeah. But this is a little different and I don't know the theory behind that. I know a little bit, but with this, the idea is... Well, the thing to keep in mind with the actual research and obviously, I was not part of a study. This was, as I said, vigilante psychopharmacology. With the actual research, it's very carefully controlled environments. There's a lot of preparatory work. So people are meeting with therapists for months beforehand. Therapists are present during the session while they're tripping. They spend the night overnight at the center. There's a lot of follow-up. So it's embedded. The trip is embedded in this very well-designed, carefully conceived, therapeutic protocol and the results are astonishing. And you went through that? No, I didn't. You did it by yourself? Yeah. I did it by my... Or with a woman who I was seeing at that time who's a big part of my show. Did she trip with you or she was your sherpa? She... I like that. That's a good way to put it. Sometimes she would trip with me. Sometimes she would be more the sherpa. Did you have sex? Yes. On shrooms? Once...  I did quite a few... Quite a lot of drugs over a compressed period of time. So one of the things that I did was psychedelic cactus.  And... Berkeley? It was a little too intense. I think for both of us it was a little too... Are you able to... Perform? Well, forget that. Are you able to focus on the other person or do you get to...  Exactly. Well, that's what I was gonna... So that's what it was. It was sort of... It pushes you more in that direction. Towards yourself. No, towards losing your ego anyway. So it can kind of... I think we only... You forget who you are completely. Yeah, I think there's always... And that's sort of the... That's bad sex. Well, is it bad sex? I kind of look at sex as like... It's almost like dancing where you want to not really... There's an awareness of the other person, but... I don't know, with the cactus it was just... I think it was too strange for me. We only did it once and... How many times have you taken mushrooms? Mushrooms, I... Or how many times have you done this? Psychedelics in general? Yeah. Dozens over... I mean, it's been a few years, but sort of the show... Those events took place 2007 through 2009 and probably... 40, 50 times maybe. And it's called the mushroom cure. Yes, because that was the original study. Are you cured? That inspired... Or do I have to see the play? Well, I'd love for you to see the play, but what I would say is I'm not cured. I am dramatically better. My functioning is massively improved. OCD is not a factor in my daily life. It does flare up occasionally, but it used to dominate my daily life for years. Yeah, it was interesting. The first time I met you, you were running a show. And you were... And I was watching you and it was... You were stressed out and, rightfully so, people weren't showing up. But it was control. It was, and that... It still manifests. Sorry, I didn't mean to jump in. Well, it's kind of interesting because you've gravitated to stand up, and you... Which, to me, is all about accepting lack of control, but trying to control your lack of control. That's a beautiful way to put it. I love that. Yeah, and I would say that's actually... Minus maybe the last part, but I think that's the potential benefit of psychedelics is the acceptance of lack of control, which lists a huge burden off of you, where you realize, well, I actually can't control this. Right. I have found with stand-up, which I think, for me, cured whatever... Really? I remember having my nervous breakdown in Vegas, and the only time I was free from the anxiety was on stage. Yeah. I was doing two shows a night at Harris. It's amazing how it can just flip your mood. And then I'd be fine, and then the minute I stepped off stage, it came back. Yeah. So you think it cured you in that specific, in that week, it's what got you through? Well, it's the mindfulness of the audience, and focusing on these little baby steps of set-up punchline. It's all that matters in that moment. Right. Yeah, the same beautiful about that. So what do you love about stand-up? I mean, it's a hard question to answer. I guess what I love and value more and more about it is, yeah, the potential to form a real connection, which I think I can form with my show too, but with the show, the solo show, the mushroom cure, you know, there's not the same interaction. I'm talking, people are listening, or laughing, or sometimes crying. Whereas stand-up, I mean, I like doing crowd work, and even absent crowd work, there's much more of a sense that we're here creating this moment together with stand-up. Right. Right. And there's something beautiful about that connection. There's more vulnerability in stand-up than there is in a one-man show, because a one-man show is very high-brow and sophisticated, and the audience knows their role.  I mean, there's, so there's a different vulnerability there in that I can talk at length about my pain and things I've done that I regret, but you're absolutely right. With stand-up, there's a vulnerability in the moment where this could go off the rails at any time, you know, and that's why I really don't enjoy watching stand-up videos.  Yeah. You like the High Wire Act. Yeah. What comedians do you like? Well, Eddie Pepitone, who you introduced me to, and I hung out with an LA, is just... You knew who he was before. Oh, yeah.   I love Maria Bamford. I mean, I just think she's just at a different level as a writer, as a performer, the rhythms of what she does, her pauses, she's just, I mean, she's, I think she's, it's silly to say the best or the, but I think if you had to say one the best, I think it would be her. She battles with it. Yeah, something. Yeah, yeah, OCD, yeah. Stuart Lee. Is it OCD for Maria? Yes, it is. I think she also has some other diagnoses, but I think that's her primary one. Interesting. Well, you read, right? I do, I'm very proud of my, I am literate. How is that possible if your mind is always racing? I think that's probably one of the things I like about reading and about stand-up for that matter, is that, you know, I don't want to say it forces you to engage, but there's something, when you have, whether it's 20 people or 200 people, there it pulls you into the present. But what is reading for me? Same thing. If I had someone I really love, it's just I'm there. I'm there. And you don't wonder if the stove needs to be turned off. Well, I don't have that sort of OCD anyway. I never had that sort, but I certainly can have my obsessions. But yeah, I think there's something absorbing about a great book. And you don't, your mind doesn't drift off into worry and anxiety while you're reading. I mean, how many hours a day can you read? I don't read a lot now.  So, I mean, it's not like I'll sit down with a book for four hours. Rarely will I read for more than 30 minutes at a time. Do you, so in a given day, how much reading are you doing? Not a lot. I mean, there are days where it might literally be, I'm saying literally a lot, 10 minutes, 15 minutes. How much TV are you watching? I don't really watch TV. I don't, this sounds so, so, period. I don't have a TV. I've never been that engaged by visual entertainment. TV, movies, radio. Music? You listen to music? Yeah, I listen to music. What do you do with, so what are you doing the whole day? I ask myself that question all the time. I have a part-time day job, you know, now that we're gearing up for this run, we're doing the show at Cherry Lane Theater starting in June. Yeah, so there's a lot of rehearsing, PR stuff. But you talk on the phone with friends all day? I mean, what? No, I mean, no, I rarely talk on the phone with friends. I'd say my average day is, you know, I have some day job stuff, maybe a rehearsal. Doing stuff for the show. And then, you know, I do stand up most nights. Great. But yeah, I always feel like I should have a lot more time. I'm slow, I will say that. I'm slow at everything. I'm a slow reader. I'm a slow writer. So, yeah, I'm a plotter. Interesting. Tell me the dates for the mushroom cure. So, we have, and this is at the Cherry Lane Theater. You can take its information at TheMushroomCure.com. Though, I'll update that tonight. TheMushroomCure.com. We're June 13th, which is a Monday. June 27th, which is a Monday. And then we're from July 13th to July 31st. We're doing every single night, except for Mondays. At the Cherry Lane. At the Cherry Lane. That's a big theater. There's, well, there's two spaces there. We're in the smaller space. The 60-seater. Colin Quinn was in the, you know, the 180-seater. But yeah, it's, it's, they have a good rep. I love the space. It's a great space. It's perfect for the show, so. Adam Strauss is the star and author of The MushroomCure. You'll come back? I would love to come back. Thank you, sir. Thank you.


Okay. I'm going to call the meeting to order. It is actually 734, addition to the agenda. I didn't see any on the second board report, but are there any? No additions to the agenda. Review of minutes, February 27th. Full of small changes, eight pages of minutes. Congratulations on capturing in such detail, the long discussion that we had on that night. Page six, the first full paragraph. Complete streets is kind of a concept program, and it would be clear if the first line there, we had Richard and I are noted a mention of my period of complete streets committees and ask. Can I go on it? Sure. Oh, were you done or do you have more changes? Because I have a few. But once you go ahead and I'll take, I'm pretty sure I understand it on, but I'm not seeing it right now. So in the first page, and by the way, Deirdre, awesome minutes. Like I just have to say, they made me weep almost.  On page one, Melissa Gorham is listed as being there twice. On page three, there is a very minor typo. It says, the audit made recommended reviewing. I don't think you, I think made should be omitted. The audit recommended reviewing. Do you see where that is? I will tell you. Oh, is that the first one? Mm hmm. What says on page three? Page three. Yeah, I'm going to see if I can find it. Also know the volume. Mr. Hewitt. Oh, it's the third paragraph. Mr. Hewitt also noted the audit made recommended reviewing that that sounded wrong. I mean, I think it should be okay. And page five, it's a very small typo. It says something about, I'll try to find the exact paragraph. It says red field instead of rec field. But it was, Mrs. McFadden asked how the red field parking lot, that is one, two, three, four, five, paragraph five. Is that it, Amy? That is it. Okay, I found the other one. It's on the final page. It's just above the motion to adjourn. The previous motion isn't clearly stated as a motion. So it should just say motion colon. And then if you could, if you could bold both the word motion and the motion itself as its practice, that would be great. That was me. Okay. The other one little typo, has Mary Jones listed twice in the slide board. Did you get that one already? Listed twice on the in-person public attendance. It's Mary Stone and then it's Mary Stone at the end. Mary Stone at the beginning of that. Thank you. The issue was a few of the dynamics, President- I didn't want to look at that. Yeah, you did a good job. That's pretty minor, but. I move that we accept the minutes with those minor changes. Second. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. The ayes appear to have, they do have it. Um, okay. So the minutes are done. Public comment. I see public, public comment. No comment. What's that? Oh, you're talking to yourself? No, I'm just talking to myself. No, okay. That means you're either going nutty or you got money in the bank. Is that what it means? Yes. I just thought it meant I shouldn't read it for the first. Seven 40 PM discuss Murray bliss. Barnes roads, ash tree removal project request for proposal. I'm really just bringing this to you. Well, I called the previous town administrator to find out how this process worked. And as I've been going through it and working with the resilient birds committee, yeah, it occurred to me that it was never mentioned bringing it to the select board in any way. And I thought that I should do that. And then also I'm a bit confused because we have a purchasing policy that outlines the RFP process, but it doesn't appear as though we fully follow that policy for these types of projects. I reached out to Times Argus, for example, part of that policy is an ad is supposed to be taken in Times Argus and no ad was taken last year in this time period for this. So I did create a public notice that's actually posted on this building posted just like we do any other warning for a meeting. I did not take out an ad yet in Times Argus and I wanted to ask you all this tonight to see if that was necessary. It's posted here. Yeah, post office. In post office, four corners. And then I put it on the website. So our policy states it goes on the website. It gets posted in the typical public areas. And but also that an ad is taken out in the paper, but it doesn't appear as though we've done that. I reached out to Times Argus to ask just in case I was overlooking something. And speaking with Jeff, he, Jeff Cuetta, with the Resolute Roads Committee, he's like, I don't think we did that because we kind of cover our bases with every forester in the area and didn't seem, but I just wanted to bring that to you all because it is a deviate from policy. So I just... We've had three bids every time we've done it. Yes, yeah, you have. Yeah, so I just wanted to bring this to you all because I don't know. In my history from an internal control perspective, when there's a policy and you don't follow it, you want to document that in some way. So if we are comfortable with not following the policy with eliminating the need for a Times Argus ad, I wanted that documented in minutes that the select word was comfortable with that and... I'm comfortable in doing that if we discuss it and find that it's the best way of doing things. I'm not comfortable in doing that just by forgetting about it. So thank you for bringing that to our attention. And if the Resilient Roads Committee is comfortable that they have reached out and themselves notified, all the individuals or companies that would be likely to respond to the RFP, then there's a fairly limited universe of those. So I'm comfortable with foregoing that the Times Argus ad. Yeah, they're currently working with landowners on any... We have submitted all the documents to the landowners. So they've been notified. They're giving us their feedback in regards to the handling of debris and all that kind of fun stuff. So, and they will... They're already working on following up with any that we have not received. So as you all know, they've done this before. They are certainly very good at working with landowners and working through this process. So also it's to be going well so far. So we will be looking at the bids at March 20th meeting. Our next meeting, okay. Okay. So that's it on that item, I believe. The next item... Rachel, you could turn up. You could turn up at your camera again. Yeah, I hope she left her tone up or sound up. Yeah, we're 10 minutes early, but... I thought I was gonna get to eat dinner. All right. Okay. So... So you see the annotated agenda on my democracy from Rachel. So I'm bringing it to the select board. Thank you. Do you want to present this orally, Rachel? So could you unmute yourself? No, I think I've said what I had to say at the last select board meeting and then you asked me to write it up. So I did. Yeah. So... So I can take it from here. Okay. Okay. Sounds good. It looks good. That's a good reason for putting together a committee and a good charge. Okay.  Yes, I would like to be on that committee. Okay, excellent. You have any ideas for other people? That's a good question. I was just asking Paul. He came up with one name, but we can think about others as well. He thought Ken Hertz would be good because he's got an engineer's mind. What number of committee members do you think is appropriate? I don't know. Maybe five people gets on wheelbie after that. Well, Gina, I think Gina should participate. If she can, I know Gina, you're out straight, but you've got all that experience from Florida. I would probably sit this one out if it's in the immediate coming up until we're fully staffed. I would like to sit back. Well, we're leaving on March 22nd, and we're gonna be gone until the end of April, so I don't know how quickly people want to move. That's up to you. We can put it down on front porch forum. We can do that, and then we'll see what happens. We aren't gonna get this committee put together before the snow season is over. Whether we do it in March or in April, I don't think it's a big deal. Do you want to wait until you're back in town? I mean, if people feel like it can wait, yeah. When are you back in town? We'll be back for the last week of April, so I probably wouldn't be ready to start before the first week in May. Okay. But then we can put it out on front porch forum other ways of publicly looking for people. Right. And that can be done beforehand. That doesn't have to wait until... That's what I'm thinking. We could do that any time after town meeting, which is tomorrow. We could start to reach out and see if we can get some interest. Good. Great. Okay. Down good. All right. Thank you. What do you all think of, I mean, we were saying earlier for the other business in town meeting that we'd wanted to discuss something. I don't think this is the one that we wanted to discuss, but what do you all think about just raising the question of, okay, how'd you get through the big storm, the power outage, and how could we be helping each other better? We're good. Yeah, we may be looking to fill up the times. That's a good thing to write down and remember. Yeah, okay. Of course, the other one is a town meeting question. Yeah. That's a great discussion. Yeah. Could last for a while. Yeah. There you go. Fill up the time for it. It's still a food trade. Yeah. Okay. The next thing is warrants. Oh, no. Oh my God. Carl, I almost forgot. The next item. The next item is one of Carl's favorites and Gina always participates also is discussion on town management and light of COVID-19. I usually defer to my vice chair. You've done the homework and put into the select board menu memo that according to what I now consider to be pretty much worthless CDC community level tool because of lack of accuracy of reporting, Washington County is that low community transmission. What I was going to say last time, but deferred because it was a long meeting was I had just come from a performance of the high school musical in Montpelier and it was a completely packed auditorium. They were setting up risers in the back. So it wasn't quite standing room only, but they were making chairs where there weren't chairs before. And I got word that some people I knew who went to an earlier performance of that came away with COVID from that or some other thing. And then the next day I went to a concert in a church in Montpelier and that church was completely full and people were singing and clapping and I hadn't seen any church that full since the beginning of the pandemic. And neither of these events were, there are any efforts to encourage masks and most people I think did not have masks. And there weren't any efforts to take names and contact information to people asking for people to get back and tell someone if they got COVID. So that got me reflecting. We used to talk about super spreader events and I'm wondering now do we just call them events? You say a super spreader events? Pardon? Instead of super spreader events? Yeah, now we just have events and we have no idea knowing which ones, no way of knowing which ones are super spreader events. That does put out in kind of a negative message about an event if you call the super spreader event. Yeah. Are you gonna say that about Tommy? And so that's why I think it's important. Attendants will drop. That's why I think it's important to encourage the masks. Yes. And we are taking at least somewhat attendance. We're checking in the voters. And you know it probably wouldn't be, that's a good question. It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to ask people if they experienced symptoms of COVID and or test positive in the next, what, five days to let the town office know so that we can. So maybe we would cancel the next town meeting because of the super spreader event. So we could put the information out there. We wouldn't tell anybody's name, but we'll at least say somebody came down with COVID after town meeting. Right. Does that make sense? So you're gonna say a town meeting if anyone had COVID symptoms within five days after town meeting that they can let the rest of us know? Please let the town office know. And could put it out on front porch for him. Call all the people that went to town meeting. I think some of you could do. Super. Well, it's just tough to me. So many people are out and right in the world without masks. I don't know how you do it. I can't identify. Yeah. They're super cute. Beyond some of the protocols that were in place. I think that's why you don't hear the term super spreader event. No one's tracking this stuff anymore. Yeah. No one's saying. Right wrong or different, they're not. No, the point is not to talk about who got it at town meeting, but to talk about who was possibly contagious at town meeting. So what's the point would we, I don't wanna put a post every day if people start calling the office every day because they're sick with COVID after town meeting. So what time period so that we could do this once? Yeah, I would if calls received. This is something that I'm just thinking of in conversation with Seth. So I would wanna do a little bit of research on it, but I mean, five days, something like that comes to mind. So they should call the town office if they got COVID within five days at the town meeting. If they get COVID symptoms and or test positive. I don't know if it makes sense. I'm just thinking a lot of it. I think Scott has a comment if he can make it. Yeah, it's just so impractical. I served lunch today at the Unitarian Congregation handed out lunches and to 20 or 30, 20 people. I didn't go that close to them, but how do I know if I come down with COVID because it's 24 hours later that I showed up at town meeting and nobody's reporting this stuff to the state anymore. The numbers are low, but I don't think they're realistic. It just, I understand the, it makes sense from the perspective of we wanna be safe, but the exposure that we're all having just walking in and out of the co-op or anywhere else, I just think it's impractical to try to do contact tracing that no one else is doing anymore. Yeah, that's basically what you're talking about too, was contact tracing. Yeah, yeah. And I just think it's impractical from my perspective. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well, thinking about further, okay, what would a person do with this information if they got the information that somebody had come down with COVID five days after town meeting, they might take a test, but maybe it's a good idea to take a test anyway after you go to a big event if you're susceptible. So, okay. All right, well, any more discussion on COVID-19? No. No, okay, okay. So the next item on our agenda is our warrants and because there's only two people here, I think we better just authorize me to sign it or tiny anyway. Yeah. And I have already, yeah. So I think we need a motion to- A motion, I move to authorize the chair to sign the regular warrants. I second that. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. If they appear to have it, they do have it. The next thing on our agenda is the town administrator report. It's fairly short and sweet. I'm out of the office Thursday and Friday and will not be checking emails. And maybe, and the town clerk's office will be closed on Thursday, basically Thursdays until the office is fully staffed. And then we have the future meeting schedule, which I, oh no, I did pick off the six. Town meeting, March 20th, April 3rd, April 17th. So if everyone could just check travel schedules and let me know if those dates work. Yeah, 20th, no, the third of my year, if I could give me, yeah, third of my year. Okay. Oh, we gotta go on executive session. Lastly would be an executive session. I move to enter executive session to discuss a personnel issue. Hi, second. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. You guys have it. Thank you all for joining us. Oh, we have, we've come out of executive session. Yeah. Come out of executive session, no action taken. I move we adjourn. I second that move to adjourn. Very good. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye.


China sent 18 nuclear aircrafts into Taiwan's defense zone. China has sent a record 18 nuclear capable H-6 bomber aircrafts into Taiwan's air defense zone. The island's defense ministry said as Beijing continues to step up pressure on the self-ruled island. Taiwan lives under the constant threat of invasion by China, which sees the self-rule island as part of its territory to be seized one day. Beijing has ramped up military, diplomatic, and economic pressure since the 2016 election of Taiwanese President Tsai Ing-wen, who rejects its stance that the island is part of China. Taiwan's defense ministry said 21 aircrafts entered the island's southwest air defense identification zone over the last 24 hours, including 18 nuclear capable H-6 bombers. That represents by far the largest daily sortie by H-6 bombers since Taipei first began releasing daily incursion data in September 2020. The wave came after China slapped fresh import bans on Taiwanese food, beverages, alcohol, and fishery products last week, prompting Premier Tsing-Cheng to accuse Beijing of violating international trade rules and discriminating against the island. The H-6 is China's main long-distance bomber and is able to carry nuclear payloads. It is rare for China to send more than five H-6 bombers in one day, but sorties have increased dramatically in recent weeks. Until recently, October 2021 was the month with the largest number of H-6 flights on record at 16. But last month, China sent 21 of the bombers into Taiwan's ADIZ, and the current tally for December stands at 23. Many nations maintain air defense identification zones, including the United States, Canada, South Korea, Japan, and China. They are not the same as a country's airspace instead. They encompass a much wider area in which any foreign aircraft is expected to announce itself to local aviation authorities. Taiwan's air defense identification zones are much larger than its airspace. It overlaps with parts of China's air defense identification zones and even includes some of the mainland.


Ladies and gentlemen, the story you are about to hear is true. The names have been changed to protect the innocent. You're Detective Sergeant. You're assigned a burglary detail. You get a call from a citizen that a burglary is in progress. You know the exact location. Your job? Stop it. Next 30 minutes in cooperation with the Los Angeles Police Department, you will travel step-by-step on the side of the law to an actual case when inscribed from official police files. From beginning to end, from crime to punishment. Dragnet is the story of your police force in action. On June 14th, it was warm in Los Angeles. We were working the night watch out a burglary detail. My partner, Frank Smith, the boss is Captain Bernard. My name is Friday. We're on our way back from a show up and it was 1147 p.m. and we got to room 45. Burglary squad room. You want to get started on the report? Yeah. I should be glad to get home. I'm tired. Is the building yet? What? I've seen the new building yet. Yeah, part of it. Sure is great. I thought I just thought everything. That lab looks like something out of a movie. It's all steel and tile. Lee Jones is going to flip. I was going to feel they have all that room. It's going to be great to have the lab in the same building anyway. Very funny. Yeah, that's right. What's that address? Don't try to stop him. Goodbye. That's Cote. Huh? It's a burglary. Yeah. The guy's there now. Frank and I left the city hall code 3. A few blocks from the place we cut off the red light and siren. The address was a large drug store located at the corner of Olive and San T streets. We parked the car in the middle of the block and walked the rest of the way. The store was dark when we arrived, but the front window had been smashed and the sidewalk was covered with broken glass. Stay right in here.  Where's the office? Oh, I'll be expecting you. I'm going to teleport you. I'm off of Muncie. Oh, that's you. This is Frank Smith. My name's Friday. Hello. Hello. Took you long enough to get you. The thief's gone. Where'd he go? He just took off. That's all. Took off. Which way? Down there. There. Right down the street. Do you have a car? I don't know. I didn't see one. Well, if he did, he didn't drive it. You run away down the street. You see? See? That way. How long go do you leave? Right after I called you. I come back here to keep an eye on you.  Right down that way. The street. What do you look like? Can you tell us? Sure. I got a good look at him. Real good when he come out through the window. He kind of laid on the sidewalk for a minute. I like it when I heard it right. Right after that, he went home. All right. Soon after you give us the description. Oh, you want just the same as I give it to the other fellows? Who's that? The other cops. I give them a good look. I told them all about the thieves. Where are they now? Do you know? They took out after him. They got in the car and drove off looking for him. How long ago was that? Right away. They drove away right behind the man. What they called him. They were right behind him. Now then, you want to know what happened? That's right. I thought you would. Well, I was on the way home from the movie down the street. I go there every Tuesday night. They got dishes, you know. Okay. Give them away dishes. I've been going since they started. The night was soup bowl night. Already got five of them. The night fills out my set. Yes, sir. How about the burglary? The burglary. Would you tell us about it? Oh, yes. Well, good. I get to talk and the back gets loose. You got to stay on the track. Yes, sir. Well then, now, uh, yeah. Well, where was I? You were on the way home from the movie. Oh, yeah. Well, I was just walking along. I got here by the drug store and I heard this noise. First off, it kind of scared me. I didn't expect it, you know. Yes, sir. What was it? The noise? That's right. Glass. Oh, a lot of glass being broken. I turned around and right away, I knew it'd come from the drug store. So I went over to take a look. Yeah. What do you think I saw? I wouldn't know, sir. Do you like to take a guess? Well, sir, why don't you just tell us? This fella was laying right on the floor, right in the middle of the floor. The glass all over. I guess he'd fell on one of the showcases. He sure broke it all up. Mm-hmm. Just laying there, not moving at all. Then all of a sudden, quick light, he jumped up and that's when he saw me. Standing there looking right at him. He saw me. Yes, sir. Right off. I knew he didn't have no right in the store. I knew it right away. Mm-hmm. You know how I knew? I guess you have an idea. You? No, I don't have an idea. Well then, the light wasn't on. Oh, sir, there wasn't any light on, so I knew he was a thief. That's when I went to call you. Mm-hmm. He was a phone booth fan, see? At across the street. He would keep my eye on the place all the time. Yeah. Come back here to make sure he didn't get out. And first, I thought the guy was gone. You see, I couldn't see him at all. Yeah. Then he came out from behind the counter, back in the back of the place. I could see he was hurt. Something was wrong with his arm. He felt it kind of like this. See? Like it was something wrong? Yes, sir. He was trapped. No way to get out. With his arm hurt, he couldn't find him out. So what do you think he did? Well, I wouldn't know. Your turn. Go ahead. Go ahead, please. Started running. Come right at the window. Running as fast as he could. Crash right through it. Boat cleaned through it. Landed here on the side wall. There. See? See? Right on the side wall. Glass all around him. Mm-hmm. Layed there for a minute, then he got up and took off down the street. He was hurt so bad. I could see where he'd hit his head on the window. All cut up. Would you know the man if you saw him? Oh, you bet I would. I'd know him any place. We'd like to have him come downtown and look at some pictures. Sure, sure. Anything I can do. You just name it. All right. I'm going to score to settle with that guy myself. I want to see you get it there, sir. We understand. I'll be ashamed of himself. Whole thing's his fault. Now, what happened then? Come crash it out that window? What's that? My personal reason for wanting to see you get him. Mm-hmm. He made me drop my soup bowl. We got a complete description of the suspect and a local broadcast and an APP were put out. Arrangements were made for the witness to be taken to the city hall to check through the mug books, and then Frank and I started to canvas the area. 12.20 a.m. You think you made it? I don't know. The way Arthur Muncie put it, he was hurt pretty bad. Couldn't get too far. Yeah. You want to pull up? Let's check that alley. All right. No, it doesn't go all the way through. Mm-hmm. Besides, good. I can see it. I got my hands up. I'm not going to cause me trouble. I give up. I give up. Walk out here. Keep your hands where we can see them. I'll check them, Joe. All right. Turn around. Turn around. Put your hands against the wall. All right. All right. I'm doing just what you say. Just like you tell me now. All right. He's clean. All right. Turn around. Come on. Put your hands back. No, no. Look, please. Don't put your hands against the wall. Please don't. My wrist is broken. I can't do it. All right.  Walk out toward the street. All right. Get me a doctor with it. I don't feel good. I'm going to get worse. The suspect was taken to Judge Street Emergency Hospital for treatment. We identified him as Leroy Ernest Finch, 27 years old. He had a record listing two convictions of burglary along with several misdemeanor arrests. His mugshot was shown to the witness and we got a positive identification. After emergency treatment, Frank and I were able to talk to him. How about it, Finch? Make a statement? About what? The burglary.  What's that? I'm the one who's sick. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't think about any burglary. That's a nice try, Finch. It's not going to work. You better tell me what you're talking about. We got a witness who saw you break into a drugstore tonight. He's willing to go to court with it.  Yeah? Yeah, that's right. How'd you get cut up? A couple of guys tried to rob me. I didn't like the idea and they put the screws to me. You didn't expect that story to stand up? You got to prove it didn't happen. We can't. Well, then be my guest. Why don't you save us all a lot of time and cop out here? Well, that'll make things real easy on you, wouldn't it? It'll help. It's too bad I can't go along with you, boys, but I'm not going to carry a beef I didn't build. You want us to believe that, don't you? I don't care what you believe. I'm telling you the truth. I was mugged tonight. A couple of guys took my wallet, beat me up, and that's the way it is. There's nothing you can do to change it. Well, we'll see. I'll find new about any burglary. I'll tell you, there's no reason not to. I can think of a couple. Spell them. You've fallen twice before. I thought we'd get her out of that. Well, you guys better take another look. You can't bring up my record in court.  It's a little later, huh? Huh? You already have. That morning, the suspect was removed to the prison ward at General Hospital. He was reported in good condition, was expected to recover in time to stand trial. Frank and I worked with the district attorney's office in preparation of the case. A check of the drug store by Harlan's stall of late and print detail had turned a complete set of usable prints. Blood stains found on the floor of the place were of the same type as finches. Particles of cloth on the transom, where entry had been made, matched the suit the suspect was wearing. According to the district attorney's office, the case was complete, and the conviction was assured. Thursday, June 16th, we attempted to re-question the suspect, but he was sullen and uncooperative. 6.47 p.m., Frank and I got back to the office. How about some tea? All right, where do you want to go? How about that taco place on Broadway? We were there yesterday. Good food, prices are in line. I don't know, I think you could live on beans and tacos, couldn't you? Sometime I'd like to try. There you go. Burgary Friday. How long ago? We'll be right over. Your dinner's going to have to wait tonight. All right. Leroy Finch, he just broke jail. We left the office and drove over to General Hospital. An immediate warning had gone out to all officers in the city carrying Finch's description. As far as we knew, he was still wearing hospital clothes and wouldn't be too difficult to spot. We went up to the 13th floor and met with a guard who had been on duty. And you see, he went out this way. 13th floor to the street. Not easy to believe. How do you make it? Well, as we can figure, he threw the bed sheets into strips, braided them together, worked at one of the bars until he could slip through. He must have looped the sheets around the other bars and lowered himself. How far could he go that way? Two stories. After that, he must have rested on the ledge while he pulled the sheets down after him. Kept going until he got to the street. Anybody see him on the way down? You know, we're checking now. And I'd like for you, if there had been anyone, they'd let us know. Sure, I hate to see that guy on the loose. The way he talked, he's going to cause a lot of trouble. Any chance he had help getting out? No, he's the only one in the room. Didn't have any visitors. Door was locked. You mentioned any friends in town? Anybody might go to? No, but the only thing he talked about was the beef against him. All the time saying that he was going to beat it. How he was going to blow your case sky high. Yeah. And he was sure of himself. Said you'd never get him in a court. You didn't have a chance. Yeah. It looks like he might have been all right. He isn't going to change. He hasn't beat it. Yeah? He just postponed it. For the rest of the night, the area was subjected to an intense search. All people in the vicinity were questioned. Cars going into and out of the blockaded section were checked. At 7.30 the next morning, a search was called off. Apparently Leroy Finch had made good his escape before the warning had been sounded. For the next two days, Frank and I checked everybody listed in his package. Friends and relatives were placed under surveillance. All known associates in places he was known to frequent were checked. Word went out to inform us for possible leads. Every step was being taken to bring Leroy Finch back into custody. Sunday, June 19th, we got word that Finch had been seeing a woman just before his arrest. Her name didn't appear in any of the reports. Frank and I drove out to see her. I guess this is it. Well, what about the back? Well, this is the only entrance. All right. I'll get the door. I'll try it again. Yeah. Who is it? I'd like to see Miss Wall, please. Who is it? I'd like to talk to you. It's important. I've got to tell you that. Go on in. All right. I'll just have some coffee. Look at this funny funny. Yeah. You've got to excuse the way the place looks. I wasn't expecting company. It's all right. For you a cup of coffee? No, thanks. How about you? All right. What do you want to know about Leroy? When'd you see him last? Oh, let me think. I guess it was a week, 10 days ago. Not since, huh? Uh-uh. Did they come at all? No. What is all about? What's all it done? It's all been in the papers. Oh, sorry. They're funny. They could have been at blank. What's he done? You want to talk to him? Well, not that, huh? That's all right. What do you know about him? Nice guy. Good spender. We've been out a couple of times. Dinner, dancing, nothing special. The dress is good. Looks nice. Way too much padding in his coat outside of that. He looks like something in a magazine. What'd you meet him? Cafeteria downtown. I was in Leroy eating one night. The place was pretty crowded. We came over and asked if it would be OK if he sat at my table. Oh, yeah. Finished eating. We went out and had a couple drinks. How long ago was that? Let me see you. Just a couple of months. You ever talk about any of his friends? Yeah. You know where he lived? I don't think he had one place. He kept moving around. You know, one hotel this week, some other place, and I kept moving. Where was he staying the last time you saw him? I don't know. Some place down on Pico, I think. They can't give us an address, huh? No. All right, Miss Woe. We'll leave you one of our cards. We'd appreciate it if you could call us in the event. Then she gets in touch with you. What's true? I hear anything. I'll call you right away. Oh, excuse me a minute, huh? Go ahead. We can find the door. OK. Hello. Uh-huh. Oh, yeah. Just a minute. Is that the party? Yeah. Your office. They want to talk to you. Thank you. Thank you very much, Miss Woe. Don't mention it. Let's go. Yeah. All right. See you there now? No, he left about an hour ago. Whose place belonged to him? I don't know. We want to talk to him. We'd better step on it. We're on to say that both of them had suffered serious gunshot wounds. Mrs. Gillner had been hit in the left shoulder and the neck while her husband had been shot in the arm and chest. The man was on the operating table at the time, but the doctor said we could talk to the woman briefly. Frank and I went into the treatment room. Mrs. Gillner. Mrs. Gillner? We're police officers. Man like talk to you if you feel up to it. I guess so. I guess it's all right. We'd like you to look at a picture and see if it's the man who shot you. Where is it? Right here. I'll hold it for you. Miss the man? Hard to see it. Could be the best you can, please. That's him. He's the one. Can you tell us what happened? How's Fred? Have you heard how my husband is? We don't know yet, ma'am. Shot Fred, too, you know. Shot us both. Now, can you tell us what happened? Came into the house last Thursday night. Came in. Yes, ma'am. I tried to rob us.  I guess he was trying to steal some clothes. Oh, Saturday? Yes. Night. All right. You can go on, please. I had Fred's gun. Mr. Founder in the bureau. Had it pointed right at us. Kept waving it around. Yes, ma'am. Miss, stay in the house. Three days. Kept us prisoner. Three days with the gun. Then tonight, Fred tried to get the gun away from him. There was a fight. A terrible fight. Him and Fred. You want to stop Miss Giller? No. Not much more. He shot Fred. Cold blood. Shot him. Then me. Kept us prisoner. Then shot him. Awful thing. Shot. All right, Miss Giller. We'll do what we can. That's the best thing. Best thing. What can we find, Dr. Salmon? I think I saw him a couple of minutes ago. I went into treatment room number three. All right, if we're good. Yes, he's alone. Thank you. Oh, Peefield's the same way. What do you mean? The bullet severed the spinal cord. Oh. He'll never walk again. A check was made at the Gilmore house and their automobile was found to be missing. From papers in the house, we got a make and license number. A supplemental broadcast was gotten out carrying the information. The description of Leroy Finch was broadcast to all policemen in Southern California every 30 minutes. At the end of each transmission, the officers were warned that the suspect was armed and was to be considered extremely dangerous. Border stations were notified and the checkpoints into Nevada were alerted. Bus and railroad stations were covered and airline terminals were placed under surveillance. Roadblocks were set up on highways into and out of Los Angeles. If Leroy Finch was still in the city, every precaution was taken to prevent his escape. 36 hours went by without word. Tuesday, June 21st, Frank and I checked into the office. I'll check the book. Little. Friday? Yeah.  Where you been? We just got back from 77. What's the matter? We better check with the skipper. That car Finch was driving? Yeah. They just found it. The vehicle had been found by a motorcycle officer on the side street in the Hollywood area. As soon as he'd made sure of the identification, he'd notified Captain Bernard and then he'd staked out on the car. Four teams of officers had been dispatched to the scene in the search of the area was started. Frank and I went down the hall to chief that Brown's office and we checked with Captain Bernard. He told us to leave for the scene immediately and take charge of the investigation. We went back to the squad room before leaving. Want to sign it, Tom? Yeah. I got it. Burgary Friday. Hurry up. Speak up a little. I can't hear you. What's that? I will be right there. It was Hazel Wall. Finch's girlfriend? Yeah. He just walked in. We notified Captain Bernard what happened and along with him and two teams of men from robbery detail, we left for the woman's address. The building was covered completely and Frank and I went up to the front door. Right now, Joe, can you come back later? Finch must be with her. Yeah. I'm leaving town. It won't take very long. Easy. All right. Hi, Joe. Didn't expect to see you. Got a call from New York. Got to get back there right away. Thought I'd come over and tell you. Sorry about that date for the morning. Oh, it's okay. I understand. All along, huh? Yeah, but I was just getting ready to go out. Anybody I know? I don't think so. Friends out in the valley can't make me up for dinner. Well, I sure wish I could keep that date tomorrow. So do I. Hey, I wonder if I could have a drink of water. Yeah. I guess so. I'll get it. Here, I'll come with you. There's a glass. All right, let you stay here. All right, be careful. Well, I'll be running along. Okay. We know you're in the bedroom. Throw that gun out and you follow it.  You come and get me, cop. We can wait a lot longer than you can, Finch. Well, let's see. We'll take the building apart if we have to. Go ahead. I'm not going to walk out of here. All right, you called it. Frank? Yeah. Get on stairs. Ask them to bring up the gas equipment. Okay. Watch it, Frank. Coming out. Come on, Finch. Leave me alone. I can't get up. You're not hurt that bad. It's just a shoulder wound. I am too. I don't.  I know it. Come on.  You're pretty sure of that, aren't you? Yeah, I can feel it. You got it wrong, Finch. Huh? It won't be that easy. The names were changed to protect the innocent. In October 4th, trial was held in Department 97 Superior Court of the State of California in and for the county of Los Angeles. In a moment, the results of that trial was tried and convicted of burglary in the first degree, escape, a felony, assault with intent to commit murder, two counts, and grand theft auto, one count in view of his past record. And because of the viciousness of his crimes, he was sentenced to life imprisonment in the state penitentiary without possibility of parole. You have just heard dragnet, a series of authentic cases from official files. Technical advice comes from the Office of Chief of Police W. H. Parker, Los Angeles Police Department.