Distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the session, The Future of the Belt and Road Initiative. My name is Tianwei. I'm a moderator and a host coming from China Global Television Network. It's a great honor to be sitting together with our panelists here today and to illustrate the potential of a very significant project. You know, it's important these days that we'll be able to get ourselves out of the daily social media tweets and drama stories, to be able to look at the future and the potential of some of the most important issues, particularly about development that is taking place around the world. Therefore, my great honor to introduce our panelists, Nassru Hamid, Minister of State for Power, Energy and Mineral Resources from Bangladesh. So good to see you. Song Zhiping, Chairman of the Board with China National Building Material Group from the People's Republic of China. Good to see you. Olga Yarova, Under Secretary General, Executive Secretary from the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe. Based in Geneva. Good to see you. Thank you. Last but certainly not least, Bruno Marquez, who is the Senior Fellow with the Remy University of China. He's, of course, originally coming from Europe. Thank you. Should we give them a round of applause, maybe, to encourage them to have some real insight to share, eventually, for this hour? Thank you so much. I want to start with you, Mr. Minister. Geopolitics these days has already topped the discussion topics for every panel. Probably we have to handle them as well. How is Bangladesh likely to handle that balance among so many important economic players investing in your country, including those investing on the Belt and Road Initiative? Thank you very much, actually. Tell you frankly, somehow the BRI have instigated all the big brothers together to invest in Bangladesh properly. Really? Yes. Tell us how. Like, see, when BRI came over with a big package of investment plans in the power, mostly in the power and energy sectors, not even if you keep aside of the power and this invested in the railways, big roads like that, we found out that Japan came up the big investment plans, more than $6 billion. India came up with a credit line of $3.5 billion. Even we recently found out that Americans has opened up the commercial office in Bangladesh. So it's quite a good harmony picture, what I see, and it's very beneficial for Bangladesh also. And we got about more than $5.5 billion from China as investment and also in debt, actually. Anything else? Very interesting. That makes your work fascinating, isn't it? You need to come and talk, doing shuttling diplomacy in a way among all the players. The political picture in Bangladesh is friendship with everyone. So we don't quarrel with anybody. Our country is open for investment for everyone. We have a very good package for investments, like 10 years tax holidays, anybody interested to invest in the infrastructures, power, any place, any industry, new industries. Our government, Sheikh Hasina, has setting up 108 economic zones. For different countries, there are countries who have already been booked these economic zones, like Japan has already booked up an economic zone. China already came up with economic zones. India already shown interest in investment. So what we think actually, somehow BRI has somehow helped our country in other way to bring all the big investors and attract investors in Bangladesh in other ways. Good to know the parametric, panoramic view shall I say that you have outlined for us about investment from foreign investors into your country. Mr. Song, Mr. Song, Mr. Song, Mr. Song, Mr. Song, Mr. Song, Mr. Song, Mr. Song, So, Mr. Minister Hamid, just to talk about the effect of BRI in terms of attracting investments to the developing countries. Bangladesh is a clear example of that. So will you anticipate more competition in countries like Bangladesh in terms of investments? Well, I think this is something we have all expected because the BRI is not an initiative for Chinese businesses or Chinese companies alone. It is an initiative of collaboration and a collective investment scheme for all international players. For our company, we are also cooperating with third parties in markets such as Africa to cooperate with Snader, from Germany and also from France, companies like Demons and also from Japan, Mississippi. So for the implementation of BRI, it comprises both competition and cooperation. These are two trends developing in tandem. And for China, Belt and Road Initiative is not something we design or propose for our own benefits. It's an initiative we intend to share with all international partners. So I don't regard this as a source of competition. I believe this comprises a lot of opportunities. Maybe competition is the main theme, but cooperation is only the decoration on the side. Someone will say, hey, are you a loser? Indeed, some people may say that you're being diplomatic and competition is at the core. Do you agree? No, I do not agree with such a comment. For example, in Central Asia, Southeast Asia markets, we are cooperating with Mississippi from Japan. We build a lot of cement plants in those markets. Mississippi had the history of producing cement, but they have since transformed their business, they are still very developed in providing other services. So we are cooperating with them. In Europe, we're also cooperating with Snader from France. They have many good electrical components and parts we can use in our projects. And the same can be said for our cooperation with Siemens. So for my group, we have a global procurement policy. We are open to cooperation with a lot of multinational companies from different markets. In the cement plants, for example, we have 50% of indigenous equipment. The other half is procured from our global partners. And for projects, they have won the bid. They also buy from us. So what I want to point out is that BRI follows the basic logic of business, which is cooperation. You cannot develop by yourself. With cooperation, you will develop faster and also have better cost-benefit performance. When Mr. Song was talking, quite a number of names coming from European companies pop up. That's exactly your area, which is to promote development of Europe and also interaction with the rest of the world. Tell us about what you're focusing on, especially when you have a neighbor sitting on your left side who's been talking about Eurasia over the decades. Madam Undersecretary General, please. And I would like to continue what was thought here, because if we speak about competition versus cooperation, I would add one another word, and this is opportunity. And I consider Belt and Road as opportunity for everyone under one condition that we need to behave responsibly. It means we should keep in our minds economic sustainability, financial sustainability, environmental sustainability, and social sustainability. And if you speak about connection of Europe with Belt and Road or Euro Asia, let me explain, because people tend to mix it. So I am leading the United Nations, one of the five regional commissions of the United Nations. We are five. We have a regional commission for Africa, Latin America, and so on. So if I tell them for Europe, it is indeed 56 member states. And it means the EU is exactly 50%, because they are 28 still with the UK. Then we have the whole Balkans, the former Soviet Union, including Central Asia. But our member state is, for instance, the United States. Canada, Israel, Turkey, and Switzerland. So this is like European continent plus. And from these 56 member states, 30 of them are on the Belt and Road. So and this is why I'm here and why it's our concern that we work together and that we are really behaving responsibly. And today I would like specifically speaking about environmental sustainability. We'll let you to talk about that a bit later when everybody really also need to handle that issue. Mr. Marques, one of the things I didn't introduce is that you're not only working in China for the think tanks, but also work for conservative think tanks in the United States as well. So we want to make sure those double identity is being revealed. To you, the Eurasian idea, it has been there for quite some time. Why and how much really do you think the momentum of the Belt and Road will be able to make it a more bigger, more or a bigger possibility? Yes, I mean, that is correct. I work for a conservative think tank in the United States and for a rather hawkish think tank in Beijing. I don't think there are many people that can do that. Okay, that's fair. But that's exactly what I've been trying to do to look at the question from both sides. And you always have to look at the question from both sides. The thing about the Belt and Road, I'm more and more convinced as I get to know it better. The ambition of connecting Europe and Asia and everything that is in between, of course, India, Southeast Asia, is really what is at the heart of the Belt and Road. It is a new kind of globalization because it is a globalization that incorporates difference and incorporates competition because Europe and China have very different ways of doing things. And China, I think, is already being forced to look at the world, change in reaction to the way things are done in other countries and other regions, adapt, as Mr. Song was saying, this process of adaptation. And I think that's the richness of the Belt and Road that is forcing China to change, to adapt, to learn from other regions of the world. So I wouldn't necessarily think that competition is a bad thing. I mean, the globalization we had from 1989 to 2008, perhaps it sounded better to our years if you come from the West because it was a globalization on Western terms, under Western rules, but that was not sustainable. Now we have a globalization that is much more divided, much more fractured, where different regions have to come together without abandoning their beliefs. And that's the challenge, I think, for the next 20 years. Okay, so everybody has already set the stage, right? From the minister, it's about working with everybody as much as possible and try to do that tightrope walking or find balance, maybe a better word. For Mr. Song, coming from China, as an executive of the company, it's about trying to seek cooperation, while at the same time make sure grasp those opportunities. For Madam Under Secretary General, it's about environmental issues, it's about making it green. And for Mr. Mikesh, it's about an idea that finally probably could be put from blueprint into reality. Okay, stage is set, let's handle some real issues. Mr. Minister, that's trap. Don't those phrase sound familiar to your ears? People have been talking about that for quite some time since Belt and Road Initiative came into being. To you, a developing country, one of the really economies in Asia on the way up and yet still with some of the least developed economy basis. How do you see that? Are you gonna own money to everybody now? To Japan, United States, China, and maybe some of the other players too? Let me give you a picture of what is happening in Bangladesh for the last 10 years. The GDP growth, actually when our Prime Minister, Sheikh Asina took over on 2009, consistently the GDP growth has been growing to 6.5 to 7.6, okay. When she took over the power, the power connectivity was only 47% of the total populations. Now it's 93%. The total generation capacity of the power was only 3,500, now it's 24,000 megawatt about 2,000. Gender equality, we become champion in the Southeast Asia. Solar home system, we are number one in the world. 4.3 million houses now has got solar powers. See, a lot of changes. Bangladesh has become second largest exporter country in governments in the world. We produce freshwater fish, fourth largest in the world. Bangladesh is the seventh largest producing fresh vegetables in the world. So your point is? We are self-sufficient in food. 160 million people is one fourth of the size of Texas state. 700 rivers, 60% wetlands. Still you see about 4 million humans are working in Bangladesh, in government sector itself. So being such a scenario, actually it moves Bangladesh in a different way. Now we have a reserve of more than 35 billion dollar off foreign exchange in our country. It was less than one billion in 2009. And it's going go on actually. It's now the GDP is about 7.6. We are targeting that we have to go more than eight within the next couple of years. So that's not the problem over the debt trap. But what I understand, there are news in the media but there are initiatives have taken from BRI to a lot of countries. I heard, I saw in the news that a couple of countries which actually consider to be debt traps. But there can be a, you know that, there can be a bad news and good news are there. So somehow there are a lot of good projects that are there also with that initiatives. And somehow the BRI should somehow take care of the medias to bring the good initiatives in front. I see in a very positive pictures initiative of the BRI. But there are others who are also there. You can talk about action plans like what I was trying to mention. I'm taking some time if you don't mind. Like when Japan came up with the big investments, they came up with a master plan. How is that? They don't just give, putting up their money right away.  How the country will be on 2030 and 41. Then they start on initiating, taking our people, train them to know their culture gradually and they gradually start on putting their money, investing their money in the projects. What BRI is doing, BRI is coming up with a project itself with lack of little, lack of understanding about the project himself. I just mentioned it a little bit before to you. And also there are also, even in the G2G project also. So these are the side where BRI should look into it properly. They should make more harmony with the economics and the local politics, geopolitics and people together. It's not the money we want. It's not the investment only we want. If you want to remain in a country, you have to make some harmony with the country itself. Like Japan is trying to do. They have opened up their universities. They are taking our students to study there. China can do that. Do you have students who also study in China? Very few. China should open up their universities, morally for the, from among the students. From what I heard from you, Mr. Minister, do you still consider Belt and Road a China project or a multilateral project? I think that's one issue probably we need to really clarify here. There are a lot of countries projects are there. So I see there are investment from China. I see there are investment from Japan. There are investment from other countries like India and big ways. Now I want to see in one package together. The investment from international friends together. Great point. Mr. Song, would you like to respond even though you're a company executive not representing the Chinese government or any of your peers doing projects in Bangladesh, but would you like to respond to what Mr. Minister have been saying? The quality of the investment and the way of doing investment and working with the local people, the local culture. How have you and your company been trying to tackle those issues knowing that it has not been that long that Chinese companies have been going global and try to do your job in different parts of the world. Mr. Song. As for our company, we have three principles in making investment. First of all, we fully support the local economic construction and that is our major principle. So as we've just mentioned, the plans for local development, for local environment protections and we should know about all those issues for our investment. And secondly, during the investment process, we are cooperating with the local companies, local enterprises, because we need to also offer benefits to them. We should closely work together. And if something can be done by our local partners, we will give those opportunities to them. And thirdly, we are working for the benefit of local people. For example, as for our company, we have also established some schools and donate to some hospitals and also some community services to the local people in the BRI countries. And we hope to improve the livelihood of local people so that people will welcome the China company to make the investment. And also as for the debt traps we've just mentioned, and actually we have already gone through six years for the Belt and Road Initiative. And for now we have been working on some infrastructure constructions and some power plant constructions and those basic things because they are the fundamentals in BRI. And we know those countries would also follow what China has gone through, the organization and industrialization. And the foundation of them would be infrastructure. So frankly speaking, for the infrastructure construction in those countries, they will need the bank loans from China. But to follow the countries with BRI initiative, they are shifting to organization. And this is a process that will attract more and more foreign currency reserves. And the debt for the earlier stage infrastructure construction could be payback with its local economic development. And this is exactly what China did because in the beginning of the opening up and the reform of China, we also got financing from Japan for the major infrastructure construction and we have already paid back the loans. So this is the process and we don't need to put the financing in this process as a debt trap. And this is just not the case. And as for us, for our company, previous years we have engaged in many factory constructions. And for example, we had 360 cement factories in those countries because cement is a necessary part for those infrastructure construction. And that is why we hugely invested in this part. And for now, what we have been doing is that like a building material supermarket, building material supermarket and some processing factories and so on. So this is more like towards the industrial part and some project to serve the society. So you can see the gradual change of our directions. And for example, in Ethiopia, they hope that we can help them to have some manufacturing project that will bring them with more foreign currencies. And just like what the minister said previously, in Bangladesh they only have one billion reserved but currently they have 35 billion. So this is also like what we have gone through in China. We do need the financing in the early stage but with your economic development, you can pay them back. Mr. Song, because not every country that Belt and Road Initiative has been working on is like a country like Bangladesh, which is on the way up and also becoming very promising as a result of international cooperation. There might be problems for some of the countries come up with enough US dollar, for example, for their payment if they are doing a project with China or with others on the Belt and Road Initiative. So to Chinese companies, how do you handle this issue? What I'm trying to say is that some of the other countries along the Belt and Road Initiative, if their economic situation is not so effective, so they will not have enough US dollars for the settlement. So how do you tackle this situation? And will there also be the debt traps? Well, this is also the situation that we have already encountered because for some of the countries they don't have enough foreign reserves and they will have some problems for the payment. So we're trying to work on it. For example, we will increase the loan volume so that they will have enough room for it and secondly, we will help them to improve their industrial development so that they can get more foreign reserves to themselves. And another thing is about using RMB as for a settlement. So all in all, I think this is only one of the problems in the Belt and Road Initiative, but this should not be the barrier that is stopping us to go forward. We need to find solutions for specific problems and then to carry on in general. So we need to tackle specific problems case by case. Encounter problems, try to find the solutions, not wait for the solutions to come.  Even from a China's perspective, it seems as a largest emerging economy, the country has been going through quite some challenges about environmental protection. So from your perspective, Madam Undersecretary, how those issues be addressed on time and properly? Don't understand me wrongly, I don't want to restrict myself just on environmental issues because what we are working on- Green Belt and Road. Yeah, for instance, but UNEC's typical standards, norms, regulations, guidelines, setting body since 72 years. If we speak about infrastructure, we speak about connectivity, for instance, we identified nine European Asian transport links, nine in rail, nine in road transport, and we work on removing the non-physical barriers. We, for instance, also develop standards for public-private partnerships, maybe partially respond to your question, how to get the money, because without the private sector, Agenda 2030 and 17 SDGs wouldn't be possible. So we have standards on public-private partnerships. For instance, one of the standards is zero tolerance to corruption. And China is very much interested in our standards and norms and regulations. Just this morning, I had a bilateral meeting with a state-owned railway company who are interested to work with us on the norms, but just in one hour, we cannot cover all that. So let me speak really about greening the Belt and Road and about what we can offer on environmentally sustainable Belt and Road cooperation. I was two months ago in Beijing on Second Belt and Road Forum and Mr. President of China expressed his commitment to greening the Belt and Road. But we are very happy to hear and we are really offering in environmental area, we have five environmental conventions and eight additional protocols to them. And one of them, just to give a good example, is so-called ESPO Convention. It is on transboundary effects of any infrastructure projects that can influence our neighbors. So we have 32 parties to the convention in our region. And it means if any infrastructure project is built on close to the border of the neighbor, the parties are supposed, they should consult, they should inform each other. And specifically, there is a protocol on strategic environmental assessment that goes even further in the earlier phase of the project still when the ministries are preparing their sectoral programs on construction. They need to inform and consult with the neighbors because we know environment has no borders. And this is free to any member states to access to this protocol on strategic environmental assessment also to China. So speaking about Belt and Road, it would be very, very useful if we really assess strategically our projects, our infrastructure projects, how they can influence the neighboring states and how they need to work together just for the benefit of people living in all countries that are on the Belt and Road. This is how- I have to come back to Mr. Minister before I go to you, sir, a bit later. Mr. Minister, are those consultations being done? Are you aware of the standards, for example, Under Secretary General had been proposing or other standard because there are many other different ways and systems of looking at things. Are you, as countries being invested in, also being proactive in talking to your partners about what is the best way to make it a Green Belt and Road initiative and also about others cooperation with Japan, with the United States, for example? To answering your previous question, I mentioned that there should be some plan before you invest to a single country like that. Like I told about Japan, what they have done. They have done our master plan. They've done the make-up to train our people. I understand that part. The question really is- Even BRI wanted to initiate the green energy in Bangladesh. They have started some few projects investing in Bangladesh. But overall, if they wanted to put up a big steps there, they must have some long-term plan should be there. And it's very much welcome. My question to you, rather, Mr. Minister, is whether countries being invested in are also aware of those standards. And you are being proactive in a way, from your interest perspective, be able to approach this player and say, these are the things that we want to make sure it's gonna be beneficial for our countries. Absolutely. We want renewable energy very much in our country. And we have already, already actually different countries are already, mostly the European countries are shown interest in the wind. But we don't have much of wind there. But still, we have a lot of sun. So they are keen to invest in the, you know, solar and other renewable energies. And we kept about more than 10% that will generate power from the renewable energy. And we're doing that. Okay. Thank you, sir. Specific issues are always important. But visionary issues are also very important these days, especially when we're experiencing dramatic changes these days, as they say in our world. Therefore, Sir Mckash, what about that Eurasian vision that you've been putting into your books and you've been telling your friends about the Belt and Road Initiative potential? How much really is there? Or is it too far away a picture for us? Well, let me ask the audience. What do you think is the main axis of global trade today? Do you think it's transatlantic between the United States and Europe, trans-Pacific or Eurasian between Europe and Asia? And the answer, predictably, is that it is the Eurasian axis. Many years, it's three times the volume of transatlantic trade. So we still need to adapt our language and our thinking to the economic material reality. Well, wait, wait. You cannot answer for our audience. So maybe we should have a survey right here. What is the first option? What is the second option? Let's just have the ladies and gentlemen sitting over here have a vote here. What is the first option you say? Well, you know, but the answer, this doesn't depend on what people think. There's the figures, but... Well, it's important that what people think here. It's a democracy in the room. So let's have a vote here. So what is the first option if you can? What do you think is the most important axis or relation in the world economy? Transatlantic between Europe and the United States, trans-Pacific between the United States and Asia, or Eurasian between Europe and Asia? Okay, so three options. Transatlantic, trans-Pacific, Eurasian, okay? First up, you cannot raise your hand three times, okay? Or can they? Well, they can because, you know, there are different ways to answer the question. Let's do that. You can raise your hand many times as much as possible. So let's do this. Transatlantic, anybody? What? Only one? Transatlantic? Because they trust me when I said it isn't. Okay, all right, all right. And then let's go trans-Pacific. Trans-Pacific. Well, I think about half almost, right? If I, yeah. Okay, and now Eurasian. Also about half as well. What's going on with transatlantic? Well, you know, I think the main reason why Eurasian, and trans-Pacific is a bit less than Eurasian, but more than trans-Atlantic, I think the main reason is that the complementarity across Eurasia is enormous. You have regions that produce natural commodities. You have regions that are developing. You have regions that are fully developed, like Europe and parts of China. And so all these economies fit very well together. Whereas the United States and Europe that we talk about all the time is the main economic relationship in the world. In fact, there's very little complementarity. We've specialized in roughly the same things and we're becoming competitors more and more. We'll see whether there won't be a new wave of tariffs this time, not against China, but against Europe and German automakers, which I predict will happen pretty soon. So clearly the future of the world economy is in these Eurasian relations that are developing. And I was very interested to hear Minister Hamid speak about how it's not only the Belt and Road, it's Japan, it's the relations with India. So there's a whole world that is developing with new relations becoming increasingly more central than the old ones that we're used to. And given the fact now, half of the EU members, EU member economies, have already been working on certain forms on the Belt and Road Initiative. What does that mean in a way? Because a lot of people here might not know. Some have been working on third-party development, for example, the Netherlands, Switzerland, even England, the United Kingdom, if they remain in the European Union. And there are others who also sign on different formats of cooperation along the Belt and Road Initiative. So what does that mean, Mr. Markech? I think it's very important. It's a new phase in the Belt and Road. Until now, the first five years, we used to think of the Belt and Road as being focused on developing countries. And I think the moment Italy joined, a G7 country and a NATO member, it changes the nature of the Belt and Road. And then I think Switzerland, let me mention Switzerland since it's the forum's home country, the Switzerland memorandum was very important for a number of reasons. First of all, transparency. The memorandum was published the night it was signed. And China didn't have objections. Switzerland pushed for it and China didn't have objections. So other countries should do the same, just publish the memorandum quickly. And then the idea that China and Switzerland will work in third countries is also very important. So that's a different model. This is not about Chinese investment in Switzerland. Switzerland has enough capital, probably too much capital. And it's about partnering together and investing in third country. So we're seeing this topic of the panel is the future of the Belt and Road is starting and in some respects, what happened with Italy and Switzerland shows the future. Not European countries alone, but also maybe Japan and some of the other developed economies also about third party cooperation, third party market development as well. Mr. Song, maybe I need to let you to come into the conversation about that too. Because people, some are still at the, thinking about Belt and Road, they're still at the very initial stage of Belt and Road. But now as the other guests have clearly outlined, this is already moving to the next stage. We need to really catch up with really what's going on on the ground. What do you make of this stage of development with the vision that Mr. Marquesh outlined? Of course, you don't have to agree with him. That's his personal academic vision. What do you make of this current stage of development when it comes to Belt and Road? Please, sir. Firstly, BRI has been undergoing six years, and it's not very long, but it's very short. Actually, six years has been very long, in my opinion. Before the six years along the BRI countries, we did lots of things in these countries. But in these six years, we just accelerated the pace in these countries. In the initial stage, we started with infrastructure. But if you go and visit I, now quite often visit the BRI countries, and the development has been very quick, very rapid. Some industrial parks has enjoyed very large sizes, large sizes of industrial parks, including Bangladesh. And also, if you visit supermarkets in Europe, you'll find lots of apparel from Bangladesh. So their processing industry has been developing very quickly. Urban development has been developing very quickly. So I think BRI, besides infrastructure investments, we should continue. For Chinese companies, they should also look into the next stage. That is, in the industrialization processes of these countries, what kind of opportunities do we have, because we experienced the same pathway. And so we have lots of experience, because BRI are going along the same pathway, and so we are a good fit. Lots of Chinese industries are good fits of the BRI countries. What we are doing today, they are going to do them tomorrow. And also, our capacity, our management and technology, can be applied in these countries. I don't mean obsolete capacity. In BRI countries, we are introducing the most advanced capacity. No company would introduce obsolete capacity to these countries. So we only introduce most advanced technology and capacity. That's our way of thinking. As to the next stage, you mentioned the environment, the greening. And in media, I think there are some misunderstandings about Chinese companies. For Chinese companies, when it comes to environment, Chinese government attaches importance, and Chinese companies attach importance to the environment. And if you visit BRI countries, firstly, we give overall emphasis on environment in developing the Sino-Barros industrial park in Barros. Xi Jinping gave personal instructions that every single tree should be protected. Therefore, in the BRI countries, whether it's a construction or industrial parks, we attach importance to environment, to production and safety, quality, technology costs. But environment is given the first priority. And in the BRI countries, their environment is very important to the future of mankind. Chinese companies know this very well. Therefore, for our next steps, we will emphasize the environment. And also, it was mentioned that BRI countries, not only development countries, but also medium income countries, Italy, you mentioned, Bulgaria, and Argentina, Brazil. And these countries' involvement or participation, they need infrastructure. They need to further develop their economies. And we also pay close attention to their needs. So regarding the core of BRI, two things. One is we are improving the standards of BRI projects. Secondly, the scale is rising up and skating up. More and more countries are accepting BRI. And more countries like to participate in BRI. It's going to develop further. In different parts of the world. I guess it's good for your company. And it is a trend, as you said. We're at a different stage. Madam Under Secretary General, I also want you to come in further on the topic. What Mr. Mckash said is not just the concrete specific points, but rather when these points are linked up, what it could mean. Now, that could be very important. When we are working on the daily issues, we should really also look further. To you, what does it mean? When those dots are connected together, whether it's geography or way of doing things, what could that mean? Oh, if we speak specifically on environment, we need to speak about climate change. And the climate change, unfortunately, is progressing faster than humanity is able to act if we connect the dots on daily environmental activities. Minister from Bangladesh mentioned renewable sources of energy, water. But again, each project has transboundary effects. We don't have boundaries. We have, for instance, our air convention. It's about decreasing the limits on harmful emissions of harmful substances. And by this convention, implementing it in our region, the scientists proved that we were able to prolong life expectancy in European continent by one year, by 12 months. So we all need to act together. Speaking on climate change, a few days ago, there was a preparatory meeting in Abu Dhabi on the climate summit that Secretary General Antonio Guterres is organizing end of September in New York. And we have the tools. We have standards, norms, guidelines. I mentioned protocol and strategic environmental assessment. So let us strategically assess what we are doing, because it's a very complicated protocol. And if the country wants to implement it, and is exactly speaking about bigger areas, transboundary effects, so let us connect the dots and think about the future generations if we speak about the greening, the belt and road. Mr. Minister, about the bigger vision also to you. We see so many different kinds of a regional cooperation. Belt and road could be termed as regional, could also be termed as transnational. So what do you think, when you connect the dots together, what kind of bigger vision that you are having in mind when you see the latest development and the latest stage? You see the BRI for the future, the young people will carry on. So somehow we must have some plan to develop our young people. So technology transfer can be one way to develop these young people. Like China, not only putting up projects there for infrastructure, also they can come up with transferring the technology. They can open up R&Ds, like Huawei can open up their R&D in Bangladesh, they can come up. Encouraging the youngs. They can, like what I see, we have huge projects. We have more than 100 of thousands now Chinese workers are working there in Bangladesh recently. And other countries are workers are also there. We have a projects from Russia, like nuclear power plant, they're building up a new power plant. We have got thousands of Russians are working there. So what I see that, there is quite a cultural gap is going on. So I wanted to see a cultural globalization in the country itself. Like why not actually? Why not 100 of 1000 Bangladeshi can speak Chinese? Why not 100 of 1000 Chinese people can speak Bangladeshi? It should be there. So I see globalization through BRI. I wanted to see in the future. It's not like one projects you just finance and come back. And it will not initiative what the China government has taken for the long term. It will not work if you don't connect with everything actually together. And I'm afraid it's not just the government because a lot of Chinese private enterprises, Mr. Song, if I understand right, are also investing and working on the Belt and Road Initiative. Sometime even in competition with you. Mr. Song. You're talking about the private companies from China? Yes. Actually SOEs and the private companies in BRI, we are whole. We form the same value chain. And for us, we usually engage in big projects and they engage in small projects. So we are supplementary. So we are just like one core. And we are linked together. And there is no clear boundary between us. And when we go to a particular country, we even eat the same meal together. There's no clear division between private company or SOEs. It's just people's imagination. And Mr. Minister mentioned that in BRI countries. And nowadays, we are supporting these countries in technology transfer. Many Chinese technologies are needed by these BRI countries. Just like what's happened between China and Western countries, now we are doing the same technology transfer to the BRI countries. Also, we are training their staff members, workers. And among our companies, we invite them over to train them in our Chinese companies. So we have done a lot of this. And also, we train workers locally in these respective countries. And also, some BRI countries, they don't have very good standards or labs, laboratories, and therefore, we are setting up joint laboratories, 10 joint laboratories to set up their national standards and so on. And therefore, in BRI, we want to enhance their technology standards and managerial standards of these countries only by this way, we can achieve prosperity for BRI. And then we can enjoy more opportunities. So-called Marshall Plan with the Belt and Road Initiative. Of course, these are very different. But even you look at the amount of financial resources being put into this so far, already 10 times more. However, they are very different in nature. And it seems to be a choice that people made today rather than when they were right after the Second World War. But now, geopolitics change it once again. So people have questions about Belt and Road as a result of this geopolitics change, which is happening after the Belt and Road Initiative was brought up. So what do you make of that? And what does that say about the bigger picture you've been emphasizing once and again? Well, I almost feel tempted to ask the audience again. And the question would be, do you think we are in a new Cold War? Let me tell you that my answer- Can we do it for another session? I'm kidding. Well, to this one, there isn't any fixed answer. You may have different opinions. I don't think we are. And I think the results from the meeting at the G20 show that. We are in a very competitive time. But it's competition with integration. I don't see any attempt to decouple, really. What I see is an attempt to control the value change, to occupy the highest position in the value change. But that's a game that will go on for a long time. And it's a game that all the major players will have to play. But it is not war. And it's not Cold War. We continue to see integrated value chains. But I think different actors are no longer naive. They know that within the value chain, there are positions that are more dominant than others. If you control the crucial technology in the value chain, then you can organize the value chain. And we see the United States and China, in particular, on the case of 5G, trying to occupy the dominant places within the value chain. This is the world as I see it. But of course, we're still at the early stages. It's been one year of this new world of trade wars or trade disputes. I think even in China, the first six months, we were supposed to talk about trade disputes, and now it is a trade war. So we're all adapting to a very new world. Interesting. We'll see how people see all of these issues being portrayed and outlined, framed in an ever-changing landscape. But for now, we have a limited time, five minutes. The audience have much smarter questions than the one that I just proposed earlier. So feel free to raise your hand. Can we pass the microphone, please? We collect the questions, and we let the audience do the panelists to answer questions so it will be faster. Anyone? Any question? This gentleman. OK. Any others? Raise your hand so I can see. OK. Over there. OK. Please, first. Hi. So my name is Samson, and I'm representing the Global Shapers Community from Macra, Ghana. I have a question to Mr. Son's Jim Payne. And my question is very simple. We've benefited, Ghana as a country has benefited a lot from the Belt and Road Initiative. But we've also seen a few small and medium enterprises also cause some harm to our environment. How does the Chinese government ensure that though we also try to retain license or retrieve license from these companies that come to mind, how does the government also ensure that they are held responsible for their activities in these areas? Thank you, sir. About the environment, let's go to that lady also. She has a question. I have a question for Marques, Mr. Marques, pertaining to local labor. Despite what Mr. Song has said about them training local labor, what's the data points? What's the reality there? Is it just perception that actually when this Chinese capital are going to build infrastructures, they're also bringing along even manual labor displacing local labor? Do you think you will have the data about that? About labor? OK, well, Mr. Marques, you better have. Later, later, a bit later. Let's collect all the questions. Lady, please. Slow down. Watch your step. That lady and this lady, this first, please. Sorry for my voice. I'm Frazana Choudhary from Bangladesh. I have a question to Mr. Song. You have heard from our honorable state minister regarding the Bangladesh experience, Bangladesh achievements by joining the BRI. So do you think that in the long run, what he has mentioned, the long-term vision of Bangladesh, do you think it will get more FDIs from China in Bangladesh having the great experience from BRI like what he has mentioned, the cultural globalization, bringing in more young people in China and getting more culturally, technically, I would say, knowledgeable, and then transfer this knowledge in Bangladesh? You mean integration, right? Is that what you're saying? OK, thank you. And this lady first. This lady, go ahead. Thank you. Any others? OK. Isabel Hilton, China's had huge development success in the countries of the Belt and Road also made development. China's development model in the first decade of this century doubled China's carbon emissions. So my question is, when you look at the Belt and Road, how would you adapt the China model for the Belt and Road host countries? Because if they follow the China model as laid out now, we have no chance of... OK. Environmental issues before, now, right? OK, I think we collect almost every question. So I think there is one issue about cultural integration, and a lot of questions about environmental issues, Green Belt and Road, which you mentioned. So why don't I have, and also one about labor issue? So why don't I have the three of you briefly answer the question? Mr. Song, how about you? There are a lot of questions. So Mr. Song first, many questions were directed to you about environmental protection. About China's model could be suitable for the BRI countries, and how should we deal with environmental issues in our cooperation? And try to be brief, time is up. Regarding environmental issues, you may notice that Chinese government's environmental policies, we introduce new policies, and in BRI, we also want to emphasize the environment so we pay special attention to it. In Bangladesh, you mentioned some SMEs. In Ghana, they have some companies' emission problems, and we notice that we are guiding our companies to take environment as the first priority so that in the long term, we can make a successful BRI. For me, this is very clear. And I've set up lots of glass factories and cement factories. If you go visit, they are up to the European standard. They are world-class as to training specific data. Let me take the example of Ethiopia. In Ethiopia, I set up nine cement plants. I trained over 10,000 staff members to manage the modern cement plants. These are our company's example. In the early stages of development, we did have a higher carbon footprint, but in more recent years, we have been shifting our focus and also revamping our development model so that we can have a stronger awareness of the environmental footprint of our projects. If you look at the development pathway of the UK and the US, they also went through a similar process. We all know the London smog problem in the old days and also in the regions such as San Francisco. The Seagulf was once heavily polluted. So a lot of the countries experienced very similar problems over the course of the development. And this is only natural for China to go through a similar process. But this is pitfall we want to avoid when we implement BRI. I'm very happy that we raised environmental issues. It was my intention. This is why I spoke. So I just want to stress out. We have the tools available how to green the Belt and Road. Indeed, the Chinese government drafted a document called Guidance on Promoting the Green Belt and Road. So we work together, but we are too late. It's five minutes after midnight on environmental issues on climate change. We need to act very fast. Our standards and norms and products are free available for any country. This is a public UN goods. And my last word, if we were able to link Belt and Road initiative with Agenda 2030, I believe we are fine. Right. And I'm afraid we also have to remind our audience. It is not just the Belt and Road countries that need to work on the standards and improve the environment. Also work on the climate change issue. But also many that are not on this initiative actually should also work on that just to be fair. I fully agree. Agenda 2030 was signed by 193 UN member states. It means it's a global agenda and the best that we have available. Thank you, ma'am. And last but not least, Mr. McKess. Those figures are not available. I've looked for them. I didn't find them. We would need every company to provide Chinese authorities with the figures they had to be collected. I can tell you in my experience traveling in Belt and Road countries, which I do all the time, usually when a project is being built, it's predominantly Chinese labor force. But when a project is already working, a factory or a port in Djibouti, it's predominantly local labor force. So that's a truth to both stories. We are running out of time. It's a very packed discussion. A lot of information to digest. Shall we, the audience, give the round of applause for our panelists. Thank you for their contribution and insights. And thank you so much, ladies and gentlemen, for your input. Thank you. I really appreciate it.


and today I'm gonna do a brisket and what I'm gonna do actually so I'm gonna trim this brisket up and what I'm gonna do is take some of the fat and the point section and I'm gonna make smoke sausage with it so that leaves me with this big old flat here that I'm gonna take and I'm actually gonna cook sous vide and I'm gonna cook it at a lower temperature so I can get it around medium so when we throw this on the smoker in a couple days we're just gonna put it on there to get some smoke and some bark to it but the meat's not going to be well done I don't have to get it up to 200 degrees or anything like you would normally do on a smoker so I want that meat to be right around the medium medium uh done this so it's good got some good color to it still so we're gonna do that but first I gotta go ahead and trim this up and I'm not gonna bore you with that but like I said I'm gonna just do the flat section here and we're going to put that out there in the sous vide bath for 58 hours at 134 and that should break down the meat enough to make it nice and tender so when I put on the smoker all I really need to do is put it on there for an hour and a half or so to two hours to get it so nice smoke to it in the bark so all right guys I'll see you back when I get this all killed I just wanted to show you here I went ahead and separated the most of the point from the flat I kept a little bit this is the flat section here and I kept a little bit of the point on just to add some fattiness and richness to the brisket so when we're done so it's just a small part I'm going to keep some of this fat on here I trimmed most of the fat off so this is what we're going to throw in the vacuum bag to sous vide this is what I'm cutting up I saved some of the fat and the point here I'm cutting it up into cubes smaller real small cubes because we're going to make this into sausage later today and you'll see that video probably in a week and a half or so but I'm going to go ahead and cut this up into smaller little chunks like this and then we're going to grind this up and make smoke sausage with it later today so just wanted to show you that guys I'll be back after you I'm going to go ahead and season up this brisket now I think I can put it in just a regular freezer bag or vacuum sealer bag today because it's just a small flat the brisket itself was only like a 10 pound brisket so it was such a small flat and I'm going to use run and wilds premium gourmet beef rub I haven't used this before but run and wild sent me some of this to try there'll be a link down below for a run and wild of course and if you order anything from them and you use the code fire and water you get 15% off but I've never used their premium beef rub before but I'm going to go ahead and try that on this hey see and I haven't used this before just to go to prove it so I'm going to use it on this brisket and it's going to put a nice even coat on both sides and then we're going to throw it in the vacuum bag I don't use binder like I've told you before moisture that's already on the meat is fine for rub to stick I've never had rub fall off of a piece of meat before if anything I would just wash the the meat off and use the water that way but I don't use mustard or oil or anything to stick make the rub stick because it does stay on there pretty good so just go ahead and get a nice liberal coat on both sides and we are going to season this once again when it comes out of the bag just to give it a little extra layer of seasoning on there especially for the bark so just make sure every part of it gets it more on this side that's it and I'm going to go ahead and get this in the vacuum sealer bag and we'll throw it in the sous vide just wanted to show you guys I did was able to fit it into just a regular size vacuum bag because it is such a smaller piece of flat so it's in there all vacuum remember always double seal when you're going to cook for a really long time I know that you know sometimes it seems like a waste but I've always learned you know I've learned a couple times that you need to double seal especially when you got a bigger piece of meat or you're going for a really long time only takes a couple extra seconds but you know peace of mind is better so all right I'm going to throw this in the sous vide it's mine well if it had it so mine it'd be true it's right around 48 hours at 134 and I'm just going to let it sit to let the brisket sit in here for about 30 minutes or so the water will stay pretty close to 134 it's not going to go up it might go down a little bit but that'll be okay and that's going to give me some time to get the fire up and run in so I just lift this put a couple fire starters in and I'm gonna let the put some hickory and pecan in there for the brisket so soon as this gets stabilized I'll be throwing the brisket on but I'll see you guys back in a few minutes one other thing guys I'm going to do while I'm waiting for the grill to come up to temp and for the smoked white smoke to clear out so I'm going to ice bath the brisket you can see there I got it I just emptied out the hot water put in some cold water and dump some ice on it what I'm going to do what that's going to do is bring the temperature of the meat down get it really cool so that when I put it on the smoker it's going to attract some more smoke because cooler wet meat will get more smoke on it than warm dry meat so just another thing I'm doing take a note ice bath it because remember we're cooking this at 134 I don't want it to cook much more than that when it gets in the smoker so the cooler it goes in the longer it can stay in the smoke without overcooking the meat all right all right and if I pulled it out of the bag and looking pretty pretty good it's pretty wet I'm not going to dry it off like you normally would when you sear a steak or anything when you have to use sous vide that you'd like to get the moisture off so the sear is better but since we're smoking it I want that moisture to capture the smoke I'm going to put a little bit more of the run and wild premium gourmet beef rub on there like I said I've never tried this before but it smells wonderful and that's got some good uh salt pepper onion garlic I'm going to do both sides and since this is pretty wet still that rub's going to stick pretty good so I'm not doing a ton just enough to make up for some that got lost in the liquid so that's about it I'm going to go ahead and throw this on the smoker 160 degrees but if you can see here it looks pretty darn juicy kind of get it with that this top point was the part here was part of the point and the bottom part was the flat here so I'm going to actually cut a part of the flat off as you can see that it's actually still still pretty red that's uh pulled apart it's very uh very tender you can tell it's not tough at all it's pretty juicy it's covered with juice so I'm not going to squeeze it but guys this turned out pretty pretty awesome I'll cut a couple pieces off here and kind of show you you just see right there just how tender it is and it's still kind of pink on the inside it's not that ugly gray that you would normally see if you cooked it over 200 you see it pulls apart real easy I guess that's the flat part so still pretty juicy very tender and that's at 134 for 48 hours and then two and a half hours on the grill at 250 so all right guys I'm going to cut this up for dinner thanks for joining me follow us on Facebook follow us on Instagram make sure you like subscribe hit the bell for notifications and follow us on the next video see you later thanks


And we do that by examining the tweets of Dr. Neil Maranello, he's a behavior expert with near six decades examining the human condition. And he's currently a solution focus life coach in Woodstock, Vermont. Neil, it's a pleasure having you on the show as always. Our subject for today, what I see is not what's there.  And when I examine the tweet, I come to it first by saying how true is it? How accurate is it in terms of my sensory perception and then its interpretation. And I can certainly say that, well, if you're colorblind for an example, you're not seeing color, what is really there or a mirage for an example. Again, your eyes are having tricks played on you. And the fact that then our spectrum of sight is only within a certain band of the bandwidth of true light, meaning that we don't see infrared light. So we're not seeing the whole picture of what's there. And then of course, the fact that the way that information comes through via my optic nerves, it's inverted, yet my brain then has to correctly interpret that. So there's all sorts of things that occur just within the perception of sight that is missing that of course makes this ring true. And then as I even dive deeper on what that means, it can be a pretty destabilizing thought, you know, that what I see is not, what is there? Yes, and they have done experiments in which they gave people glasses to wear that turned everything they saw upside down. And after a very short period of time, two or three days, people were seeing things right side up. So we're talking about visual perception. But of course, there's also other senses is auditory perception. And there's the combination of those and it all winds up getting interpreted by the brain. And the brain interprets things based on what you believe, based on what your particular, you know, as you said, whether you're colorblind or not, but there are several other variables operating here too. It's the term that we have used, significant means that you're giving meaning to something. And that meaning is being given by the brain, the mind, the part of you that chooses to give meaning to whatever you're perceiving. And maybe we should change this, what I see to what I perceive because that involves virtually all the senses. And sensation is only one form of input that then has to be interpreted by the brain and the mind. And remember, we have two minds, the conscious and the subconscious. So even in my reductionistic simplistic attempt to bring everything down to the Occam's razor, simplest explanation, it gets complex as hell. Really, really. And what I was thinking here is that, you know, then the responsibility really of your caregiver from, you know, in those first transformative seven years of life is really, really important because that's going to define how you interpret or socialize on what the senses are sending to your brain. So that's a tremendous amount of responsibility, I would think as a parent. And the other thing that came up for me is, I can see now how mental illness could be so prevalent because of that social conditioning or just of that premise that what I see is not what's there. But your caregiver, of course, is interpreting things through his or her system. And to the extent that his or her system may be distorted by beliefs that are more delusions than beliefs. Delusion being something that you believe to be true that isn't, but still controls your behavior. The interpretation of whatever, you know, if a child asks a parent, what does this mean? And the parent interprets it, you wind up with the child accepting that meaning. And the child, of course, is developmentally at an age when your child doesn't necessarily know any other meaning for it other than what is given to the child. So you have things like the old joke where the son asked the father, where do I come from? And the father goes into long detail about birds and bees and all the rest of that. And by the time he's done, the son says to the father, well, that's interesting, daddy, but where do I come from? Johnny comes from California. I love it. You know, the other thing that was coming up for me as I ponder this question and this theory was something that you had said in our last episode. And that is that it's the movie theater, that here is what is being shown and here is the screen and they're two very different things. So again, what I see is not what the movie projector is projecting out. That's exactly right. And so you can take any examples. For example, you reported what was going on in your mind when you killed yourself. And it had a lot to do with the idea that you were not worth anything and it was beneficial for everybody else. I think you see that now as very much of your own projection. But prior to that, there were all kinds of interactions between you and your father and your interpretation of what was going on in your father's mind certainly would have affected your perceptions. And so can you recreate now since you did die and come back to life what was going on in your father's mind at that time? Well, you know, rather than going into that, I look at it more in terms of, what is the big social construct right now that we're all struggling with and that's racism? And of course, if I were to give you a cup and ask you to go fill it with racism, you couldn't do it because we know it doesn't exist in the material world. It's a social construct. And yet again, if the screen is always seeing racism but that's not what the projector is projecting, you know, that screen is basically your belief system that maybe the caregiver has instilled in you. So that's all that you see regardless of what this movie projector is putting out, you know, that becomes problematic in our society or is again the social construct I would say that we're all struggling with today?  And of course, as being the example that I gave before of the little girl who was determined to be mentally challenged by virtue of an IQ test which required her to read when in fact she had never been able to, she had never been taught to read and went all the way through the sixth grade when I tested her and found out her IQ was 120. The reality here is that if the social construct says that you're, at that time it was called retarded, if the social construct says that you're retarded, everybody who sees you, including your teachers and including the child herself assumes that she is retarded. When the reality is that she was a very, very bright little girl that the IQ test that was given required her to be able to read when she hadn't yet learned how to. And so you have the exact same thing when you're talking about racism or when you're talking about what was going on in your head at the time that you killed yourself or what was going on in your father's head at the time or prior to that. It's the projection that determines the meaning that you give to it, the way you significant it. And that projection winds up controlling your perception of reality. That projection has a whole bunch of social constructs involved in it. And in order to actually see the whole picture you have to go back to it, recreate it in whatever way you can. And that's where that BASK concept comes in.  How did you get to the point where you painted yourself into a corner of one floor of a building when in fact the building was inside you? And the other thing that came up of course with the topic again that what I see is not what's there is again something you had mentioned in one of our previous episodes about eyewitness testimony and how unreliable in fact it is that eight people can watch an automobile accident and all have complete different descriptions of what they saw. And I think there have even been some tests where they've tested people to watch video and okay, how many people saw the person walking by in a yellow raincoat and only a certain percentage of them did? Yes, it has to do with several factors. One is just the angle from which you're observing. And that angle in an accident or something like that is different from the angle of the other observers. So that's one variable. But it has nothing to do or it has very little to do with the projections. If you happen to be colorblind, the yellow raincoat is gonna look different. If you happen to have an aversion to yellow it's going to be different and you're going to focus on it. If the person wearing the yellow raincoat is black and you have a certain amount of projected ideas about racism then what you're going to observe and the way you're going to interpret it is different from what other people are going to see. That's why using your example if eight people see a particular incident you're going to get eight different versions of what happened. And again, unless you have a videotape of the thing and you watch it over and over and over again you're not gonna really figure it out. Yeah. And the other thing being again where your attention is directed in a sense and that, okay, maybe in that same instance I was focused on someone else so I only saw it out of the corner of my eye or whatever. And then I'm reminded of well, how many times have I like lost my keys and said well, I looked there but they weren't there. But of course, we know that physics they are or maybe they're not which then gets into our quantum discussion about 80% or 90% of what we see is really space. So it's, again, when I go down this rabbit hole of the question, what I see is not what's there. I mean, there's so many deep levels to this. Well, that's true, but I have to say that many times I've lost my keys or not been able to find them or other things. And they have always showed up. And after the fact, I've been able to explain how they got there. At the time I said, okay, I've got to recreate my movements. I've got to go through everything that I did. And it's really only by chance at some point that I will likely find it at some later time. If I can't find it the first time I'm looking for it. The simple fact is that you cannot recreate your movements exactly. And often what I have found is that what I was doing at the time was thinking about something else. And so my subconscious was the one that placed the keys in a particular place. And afterwards when I find the keys I can realize, oh, okay, that was what was going on. But if you're talking about going down the rabbit hole I get more deeply into, okay, what was I thinking about at that time? And was my subconscious trying to give me a message that this was important enough so that I should find it and understand that I was thinking about something that was not as important as where I placed my keys. Again, I always assume my subconscious is working for me, not against me. And if I make that assumption then I can interpret the fact that the keys were somewhere that I didn't look the first 10 times and realize that there's some level at which my subconscious was saying, hey, Neil, pay attention. And the other thing again about this theory, that again, what I see is not what's there, it just kind of brought up some unease in that this could be just very destabilizing. And what I was thinking is that I can see then again how mental illness can be so prevalent when we deal with such a paradigm where our senses which we rely on to inform our reality are not always correct. And that then the result of that may be stresses that are put on our psyche which may break at perhaps the weakest point which for some people might show up as an addiction or show up as abuse or some form of where that weakest link was that it might break for them. Well, yeah, I think that the only thing I disagree with about what you said is the idea that our senses are not correct. I think our senses are clearly giving us messages. How we interpret those messages has to do with how well we understand our senses and how well we understand the parts of us that are projecting stuff onto and protecting meaning onto the things. Right. Whether you're colorblind or not, what you see is what you see. How you interpret it, however, depends on all of these other variables, especially the variable of your belief system. If you have a belief system which is tangential to the circle of reality, if you have, I don't know whether I used the example before of if you're talking to me and I'm covering up a burp by smiling. Right. Yeah, you interpret my smile as being that maybe I'm laughing at what you're saying.  The actual meaning of my smile, however, is completely different. And again, it comes back to interpretation. And so how can we, myself and the world at large, how can we make sure that our interpretations are correct or accurate? And again, I'm cognizant of what you have said in the past that the way of operating that you move about in the world is to do as little harm as possible to others unnecessarily. So I would assume that that's part of the answer to the question I've just posed to you. Well, part of what we're talking about is what's happening right now.  And then I process it through myself and I say to myself, okay, is what Matt's saying? Does that fit with my system, with my way of understanding things? And if it does, I can validate what you're saying. If it doesn't, if I can think of another interpretation of what you're saying, I'll toss that out to you. And you can then process it and decide, oh, well, Neil's full of lony or maybe he has a point there. The trick is to understand that the way you perceive things is determined by the way you think. And if the way you think is assuming that certain things are hurting other people or hurting yourself or certain people are purposely doing things to hurt you, then I'm going to take issue with that unless it's pretty clear that that person is consciously evil. Is purposely going about doing something to hurt you. Yeah, we're speaking with Dr. Neil Maranello here on Good Mental Health, examining his tweets on his Twitter feed. You can follow the good doctor at coach Dr. Neil. Our topic on today's episode is what I see is not what's there. We've been diving deep down the rabbit all year because again, I'm so excited just that again, it comes back to what I think it's been an overarching theme of our podcast series. And that really is the interpretation or the meaning that we give to anything. And I guess part of my question is, here I am at 57 years old and my experience of the world has pretty much been formed. The first seven years being so formative and whatnot. And again, I'm curious about the dangers of groupthink and history is littered with the damage of groupthink that this wasn't accepted way of believing, whether it be like racism for an example, there was a whole generation who were brought up to think that just because of the color of your skin, you were superior or another was less than. And so that's the danger that I feel this could lead to when we say what I see is not what's there. But there's a potential for group psychosis, if you will. And if I can, I actually wanna bring this into a more immediate thing. Neil, one of the things that I'm kind of like fascinated about is Sasquatch, Bigfoot. And so either it's a mass psychosis that all these people are suffering from or it's real. And the same thing I would have to say about unidentified aerial phenomenon which I'm also very peaked at. Well, you know, there's something when people take pictures of Sasquatch, they are assuming it's Sasquatch. They're taking a picture of something, whether it's actually a yeti or whatever they call it, seems to be difficult to guarantee because I haven't seen any real close-ups. And so you can say maybe it exists, maybe it doesn't, but those people who choose to believe that Sasquatch exists are basically choosing to believe that. It may or may not be a delusion, but I haven't seen any scientific proof of it. Then you talk about unidentified flying objects. Well, there definitely are unidentified flying objects because people have pictures of these things. But does that mean that there is life on other planets that are coming down and taking a look at us? That works very well for the movies and for the stories, but I haven't seen enough proof even from the stuff that's been released in the last year that there really are these things. And so you have the additional problem of the fact that when you're looking at the internet and you see pictures and you see stories and you see these fabrications that may or may not be true, but if you read something, the tendency is to believe, oh yeah, that experience is true. And the internal experience that a person has is valid for that person. That doesn't mean it's valid for somebody reading it. And that doesn't mean that when they write it down, that they write it down exactly as it happened. They may be adding certain details that make the story better. They may not even know that they're doing that. So you have this real problem of the only way you can actually get a sense of reality is to have the videotape of the thing go over it and over it and over it. I have not yet seen any proof of Sasquatch or unidentified flying objects as representing beings from other planets that convinces me that they exist. And I think what we're really kind of dealing with here is the fallibility of the mind, right? That in essence, all of our senses can be fooled and our interpretation of what we see can be skewed. So I think again, it comes back to the importance of being able to maybe separate a common sense from the mind to be able to try to put this input into a format that I guess each of us can live with. Well, a lot of that has to do with what is now called narratives or stories or parables or whatever you wanna refer it to. But one of the ways in which people give meaning to things is through stories. And those stories are passed down from generation to generation, but of course it can always be interpreted as a game of telephone. One story gets told to someone else and then tells the story to someone else. The mind of the person listening interprets it through their own experiences. And often a good story makes a huge change in the way you think and the way you perceive things. So we learn things in ways other than being proved or disproved by scientific experiment and the Bible is a good example. Anybody who interprets the Bible as absolute truth and things that actually happened is missing the context. The context of the Bible is that it was written by particular people who are trying to get messages across and say certain things and influence other people. And the extent to which those things act, records of reality, or the extent to which the parables of Jesus are absolute experiences of things that actually happened are interpretations. And it doesn't make the messages any less valid, but it does mean that you have to process it through the way the mind works rather than process it through scientific proof or disproof. Yeah. And in essence, you know, as you're speaking, it was just coming up that that's exactly what we're trying to do here is that we're discussing a very esoteric topic. We're going very deep in the hope is that you, the viewer will be able to interpret it in a way that has significant meaning for you that allows you to then live a life more optimally as you navigate a world where what you see is not what's there. Yes. And the crosscut that I use when someone tells me a story or a belief system that they have or a perception that they've had or an experience that they've had, the crosscut that I use is, is this person seeing and perceiving this experience in a way which is helpful or not? And by helpful, I mean, does it open up options for the ways that this can be interpreted that will enable this person to see more choices or does it paint them into a corner and enable them to be less fewer choices? And when you have the fewer choices you have, the more likely you are to be mentally unhealthy. I believe that the number of options you have in a given situation is directly proportional to the mental health that you have. But the other crosscut is who's getting hurt. How much and is what you're doing harmful to yourself or others? Wonderful. What a great topic today. I really have to tell you, I just love how it's kind of come around full circle here. Your final thoughts on the topic, what I see is not what's there in you. I believe that what we see, what we hear, what we feel, what we smell, all of the senses are valid inputs, but they can only be given meaning by the mind. And once you accept that the conscious and the subconscious minds operate interactively and that the subconscious mind is always trying to help you, it becomes possible to take a look at the experiences that you believe you had and re-evaluate it, re-examine it and determine what was really going on. Wonderful. We've been discussing the tweets of Dr. Neal Maranello, he's a behavior expert with near six decades, examining the human condition. He's a behavior expert and a solutions-focused life coach out of Woodstock, Vermont. Follow him on Twitter at coach Dr. Neal. On behalf of the Good Doctor, I'm Matt Kelly. We're both wishing you good mental health.