first of all good afternoon everyone it's a pleasure to be to be here and hosting this session and thank you every thank you everyone for being here making time and you know hopefully over the next 45 minutes we'll be having an interesting discussion on the sustainability and the future of EV within that right let me maybe just start with setting the context for this discussion we all know climate is climate change is a very real and important imperative and even though the Paris Accord sets the target at 1.5 degrees Celsius we are way away from that and a lot of new innovation and a lot of changes has to happen if we were to meet meet or even better the targets now why is it important you know automotive industry contributes close to around 17% of the total greenhouse emissions on co2 and off which road transportation is almost close to 12% so 12% of co2 emissions is really road transportation across across the world automobile manufacturers have really been at the forefront of a shift towards you know electric vehicles which is lower in terms of emissions and hence they are doing their bit a lot of the OEMs have already announced that they want to move to you know 100% electric vehicles and removing ice by either by 2030 or 2035 or 2040 and many of the governments you know recently as COP 26 about 30 odd governments including the US and the Canada have actually announced that they go to move towards 100% zero emission vehicles by 2040 now that of course presents a huge opportunity for this industry and also certain challenges given that you know it's going to be a fundamental shift which we haven't seen in many decades so with this you know I'll start the discussion with with all of you here which represents you know many of the OEMs in both the two-wheeler and three-wheeler space we have charging infrastructure representation as well as finance so thank you gentlemen let me let me maybe start with getting an OEM perspective first and I know we represent so Amitabh, Ram, Varun and sort of maybe one by one as OEMs you know how are you seeing the evolution of EVs going forward and you know what are some of the things that keeps you interested maybe I'll start with Amitabh. Yeah hi good afternoon everyone thank you so much for the invite so it's clear you know the reasons that you gave are very very clear right we need to do something about road transportation we cannot wait for the incumbents to make change happen it's very clear so if that's going to be the case then startups will have to you know disrupt and the disruption will happen from the fringe so you know I'm a computer science Greek right and I'm making cars or electric vehicles you know it's you just have to get into it I think the future for transportation is all electric there is no doubt about it so the drive trains will be electric the source of that power could be different so we'll be certain that innovation has to happen and we'll have to lead that innovation so yeah I think we're still in the beginning of the curve the adoption is just started and I think what is gonna really make it take off is the is the is the total cost of ownership that is very becoming very visible to users so I mean people are really realizing that hey electric vehicles are much cheaper to own much cheaper to run and much cheaper to maintain over the course of years so and I think once that starts to get hold and that message gets across to people I think it's going to be a very exponential transition to electric electric and and also what what what drives the growth again is the large number of people opting for electric makes the cost you know the scale of economies start coming into picture what we saw in solar panels where it started off at exponential mean that at a very high price unsustainable to really compete with with the conventional sources of energy just drop by a factor in magnitude within years and and now it has become an extremely sustainable option to start power sources although there it has its own challenges but it's again the cost has come down dramatically and I think the same thing will happen with electric vehicles as well where the total cost of ownership will definitely drive the adoption and the exponential you know growth of that maybe sort of hello so I agree with both Amitav and Varun on both the different points that they made incumbents will take their time and I think and that startup has definitely done a phenomenal job I think all the founders out there I think in pushing the industry making customer believe that electric is possible and it can be done today with whatever limitations that we have in the ecosystem the other point total cost of ownership is definitely very important and that's one of the reason why Euler had taken a fundamental bet on the commercial vehicle pollution was one of the reason I think where you started your conversations with but at the end of the day customer believes I mean in the total cost of saving ownership and that is saving the experience that they're getting from the product so there what I feel over the next couple of years you will see more mature better stable better experience will happen in the product I mean some of the early journey had been I would say bit challenging either your financing ecosystem or the service ecosystems were still getting developed the products were still getting matured so next two three years I think this rate of change that is happening will further get amplified and your tipping point might be sooner than what we all are anticipating absolutely from your perspective on this yeah good afternoon everyone the future I see is very bright not too far I'm starting near future is very bright obviously the government policies and the government is pushing to meet its own goals for for a cleaner planet and again TCO is a big driver there's a big pull from the market for the TCO perspective but there are certain few things that kind of probably didn't help the speed of growth safety number one the past six months with the government policies and also new technologies coming in the battery the significant progress has been made in the industry so that actually should give a good comfort for the customers and then the affordability a lot of new battery technology coming in with a charge density with higher charge density like solid states and also having different business models as well to make it more affordable with swap solutions or leasing that will also be a huge catalyst moving forward to to get the get this growth at a rapid pace so I I'm very bullish on this and that's the reason we're all here in this business so definitely there I see a lot of positive things wonderful thank you for sharing that let me move to Amit we all obviously know that charging in infrastructure plays a key role in this whole EV transition you know you've been working on on this space for a long time and of course you know moving towards more technology enabled charging infrastructure how do you see technology playing a role in this whole EV transition on the charging infrastructure thing so first of all good afternoon everyone so see Chetan Jant just mentioned that we don't have those many years now to ramp up to reach to a greener planet and while everything is important technology is going to be the most important in achieving that so right from the battery swapping to EV charging to the technology in the EV standardization is something which is going to be very important and technology plays a very crucial role on that so while the standardization comes the scalability is also I believe and I assume many of you would also that scalability is also going to be driven by technology so this is what technology has to offer and it's not limited to just the software on the embedded the designs of the chargers the vehicles everything the experience and finally like everyone mentioned that the total cost of ownership so technology is going to play there as well absolutely thank you so much Amit my next question to Pankaj look we've all spoken about total cost of ownership which with EVs over a period of five to seven years of usage is definitely lower but we also know that the upfront cost is more as of now both for the vehicles in itself as well as setting up the charging infrastructure so in your opinion you know how can financing be a key enabler to this transition good after everyone thank you thank you for inviting me and it's good to be part here so when we talk about financing I think so the biggest risk to a financial comes in the quality of the product the risk on the product today we are talking about that there is a standardization which is needed in charging or probably product technologies are changing and it is a financial risk for any financiers who is doing risk in this category but today as a ecosystem we are funding everything in terms of ecosystem so probably be it vehicle be it charging infrastructure be it swappable battery so we have a proven track record financing all of them but we look at different use cases and we finance specific use cases in those category so today we probably when we talk about charging infrastructure the biggest client that we have financed to is blue smart he probably have given around close to 150 charges to them because there is a fixed revenue utilization which blue smart can do it probably when we talk about in terms of cars we probably have given it to lithium as well we are giving it to blue smart also today so probably you know there are different asset which can be financed to different people and different segment and I see ev financing is a different it's working fantastically well in the last mile connectivity as of right now and in charging and in particularly in terms of battery swapping where it is a B2B business there is a scope of doing it but very limited people are able to create a charging infra and make it utilized buy in a public mode so there is a revenue assurance goes up and down so that's a place where financial cannot render and that's the normal risk that because of which there are very limited people in the finance domain when it comes to ev financing thank you punkers maybe I'll continue with you for one more question related to that you know we have we are all you know we have eminent set of founders and you know early-stage companies those to call even even on the finance side right and also mentioned that this is the decade or you know ev transition is being led by new age companies I mean if you'll see globally you know Tesla BYD Neo and even in India many many of you are creating that revolution on the financing side of course you know you're also an emerging new company there are so many bands NBFCs who've been financing automotives for donkey's ears what differentiation do you think you can create in the market so we started ev financing in 2016 so we were the early birds who started E-Rickshaw financing we currently hold a portfolio of around 18,000 live customers spread across 12 different states in northern part of the country now what we have really believe in that technology is a play in ev financing today the every asset that we finance is been fitted by an iot device correct this gives the complete information on the utilization of the asset now most of the laws that we do whether it is an E-Rickshaw whether it is an electric auto whether it is a charging station they are income generating or utilization has to be tracked in a very proper and a regular manner correct if the person is generating the income the EMI would come on time now using this iot device and this data we are creating our own artificial intelligence tool which is going to help us classify each and every loan and put it into a red yellow number situation for us where we would be able to take a rather than a post-mortem approach we would be able to take a pre-emptive approach on handling NPS or defaults or DPD is what it is called in NBFC language in a much more effective manner correct so we see that IC engine didn't have this kind of a play but electric vehicles infrastructure everything has a play on this because technology integrates well correct and if we know that this let's say we have financed any vehicle if this vehicle is able to give a 95% uptime a person is able to utilize X number of kilometers on a daily basis he is charging on time a probably he is taking regular offs and probably would be highly likely to pay his EMI right correct so looking at those parameters our AI tool is going to probably put all these numbers together which would help us to grow faster and faster right and of course you know the traditional banks have been a little very of so traditional is always driven from follow-ups as a whole as a NBFC we are a group of NBFC and we hold multiple licenses even the second thought that we are also probably playing on where NBFC have to probably take a leave is collections so we recently got a PPI license in our holding company so we are going to implement a valid based system and we would be one of the financings people who are probably doing all the commercial income and routing loans so in that sense we would love to collect EMI's through valid on the daily basis from our customer right correct and and that's and that's going to be driven by IOT immobilization and a prior information on daily pattern on his driving so I think so that is a some level of innovation that we are trying to do differently from any other NBFC's are probably doing differently in the EV as a sector wonderful thank you Pankaj my next question is more on the technology side so I'll ask let's say Varun and Ram to give their perspectives on that there's so much innovation happening globally on just the battery itself which is the heart of the EV battery as well as the motor there's of course you know the different chemistries plus new innovation happening on the solid state sodium ion and everything what are the two or three things you are more excited and looking forward to from from from let's say the next five years perspective so yeah I think you hit the nail on the head so I think battery chemistry is where a lot of the research is happening and there is a lot of scope for us to reduce the cost and and thereby encourage more adoption I think some of the very challenging I mean very exciting things that are happening around solid state of course that also involves lithium which is again a fairly expensive metal right now but we've also seen we're also seeing sodium and and aluminium and zinc gel come up but most of them are still at a stage where they are good for stationary storage but for automotive great batteries there is still a lot of research that needs to happen and a lot of validation and commercialization that needs to happen but one thing is for sure I think the NMC days are kind of numbered it's it's it's it's going to be interesting to see a ferro phosphate again you know catch the steam and also my manganese ferro phosphate LMFP which is which is really promising some good results and and and some of the lithium ion manufacturers have adopted it and started commercially producing them it will be very interesting to see those things hit the market and start giving results there is definitely hydrogen which is which is I mean I'm fairly you know looking forward to that being a solution for heavy commercial vehicles but then again that's not just a matter of technology but also a large amount of investment that has to go into the infrastructure to support that that is not I mean it's more of a chicken and egg story there than a technical problem to solve but it'll be very interesting to see the new technologies and come and disrupt the existing markets right now thank you you can have a fast charging which also helps the affordability for the customer and especially for people who are financing the weakest link in the EVs the battery pack and the even our customers ask the first question they ask even before they buy our two wheelers is when do I need to change my battery so that that all get eased out with the technology and fast charging so our goal at Greaves is to build a battery pack that can last the life of the vehicle so we don't have to change so that's what we're all striving to so are my colleagues here so I see that playing a major role the second thing is a sodium ion there is also a lot of investments going in sodium ion globally but unfortunately we're not there yet for charge density wise but again there are players who have proved out some some prototypes which has charge density similar to an NMC but a little further away so I see that with the sodium ion obviously it's also a much safer and a rapid charging capabilities available so with these two I see a bright future for for the EV technology wonderful thank you thank you fundamentally this question depends on who you're asking to I think there you'll get different answer if you ask this question to the R&D team and the technology team you'll get all of this answer of LTO to sodium ion, gink air, lithium air all of that like all of that is true some has some safety some has different costs some has charging time all of this like energy density volumetric all possible the other side is your customer right like when you ask them and when you think about the business model then your questions are very different what is available today at scale right what is safer and economically viable what has like after five years I can still predict a secondary value what my finances are willing to underwrite what as an OEM I'm willing to underwrite because commercial vehicle runs for seven ten years so I need to underwrite these risks as a technology and product risk we need to step forward and write that so depending on who you ask also this answer changes like for instance some of the LFP, NCA, NCM those are fairly stable I would say supply chain is fairly stable as well the cost structures though during COVID it has gone up and down I think our financial ecosystem and our manufacturing ecosystem has stabilized a bit so next five years I still see some of this pushing a lot but on the innovation side you will have everything from sodium ion to lithium air to combinations of these also like super capacitor and primary battery pack primary and power cells together so you will have these combinations so answers are also depending on who you ask absolutely I think why don't I just take on the mic so let me no I just wanted to add one more thing so we're all excited about the the new technology and the new chemistry that's going to replace lithium ion there's one more thing I wanted to add where there's a lot of technological advancements are happening on recycling the lithium ion batteries that we already have what that enables us to do is really realize the terminal value of the lithium ion battery right now and kind of discounted for the customers today so I think a lot of the progress is happening there where we can just recycle them and put it back on the road because the metals are same what happens is the internal you know the anode and cathode and electrolyte layer that degrades it can be if it can be recycled effectively and maybe you know maybe made the cost a lot lower we we could potentially look at a fairly cheap battery right now today absolutely have your own so you know maybe because I come from the software domain I always talk about software I think we missed that piece I think everyone focuses on the hardware side if you look at the system wide efficiency of the usage of an electric vehicle you'll realize that driver and driving behavior matters a lot in the overall efficiency matrix and the only way you can override this and make EVs better and successful will be through software I think hardware everyone will have the same batteries everyone will have the same motors I mean at at one point it is going to happen right so so how do you distinguish I mean there's a lot of sensors happening any failure that's happening today is largely because of software did not catch it even if there's a fire I don't blame the cell I don't make the battery I blame the bms software so I think there's a lot that will happen in that space v2v v2i there's so much happening chat gtp it's going to change a lot of things I do I'm very bullish on the software side I do feel that that is going to be the big differentiator in the years coming forward right maybe let me just carry on from there look the field for EVs and for all of you is also not just India right it's global the product that you make here and of course you know Indian companies on the two-wheeler and three-wheeler side of course India is a big market and we export quite a lot not so much on the passenger cars but you know what role can India play in this whole EV revolution in terms of especially the software capabilities which we traditionally have been very good so what role do you think India can play in this and maybe I'll ask the same question after that too yeah I mean you know it's we can play the a very pivotal role in all of this really I mean Chetan was standing here right 1999 we had a production ready full electric vehicle in this country I mean Tesla wasn't even born at that time right it's a different matter what happened the the important thing is innovations are you know we are born entrepreneurs in this country right I will be an entrepreneur right and there are many many people who will be entrepreneurs I think the important thing is that now the ecosystem is also coming to support these entrepreneurs and hence innovation is bound to happen I think we are one country where we've realized I think I don't like the word Jugal at all we've realized that innovation is very important innovation for our geography is very important and we can always extend that to a global solution so when we are doing things whether it's battery motors controllers software side we have a very very good base to start off right and I do believe that you know if we if we really put our heads together I am certain that we can be a very strong hub not just in the manufacturing side so we can be a very very big hub for manufacturing in India you know for EVs and EV components definitely but I think overall in terms of exporting from here I do believe that there's a very good opportunity for us we have a lot of lithium deposits also I would say that see a country like ours who is a software talent pool and a country like ours who is now an oil producing country and country like ours with lot of new Gen Z which are very much environment cautious so all these three factors are really going to make the products especially the software because software doesn't require a lot of logistics we generally hardware has those challenges so I'm very much sure and aligned with what Amitabh said that we will see lot of Indian software EV products going global thanks to all the talent what we have and the motivation the economical and the environmental motivation what we have thank you sort of and and let's say Amitabh if you see in most countries the EV transition especially early on has has really been accelerated through government policies I mean you you check whatever the Europe especially Scandinavian countries and even India is doing its bit through fame subsidies PLIs and all that with the three wheeler penetration at what it is which is far higher than let's say all the other forms what are some of the things that you feel the government should continue to do going forward or what are your expectations let's say from the government maybe sort of if you can answer that and Amitabh. Okay just on the previous one very bullish on the India and on the EV segment primarily one of the reason why I moved from US came back to India building it here so we believe definitely that India will at least build couple of companies in this emerging EV sector that will go out and rule globally as well. On your question on this EV and government see they give fundamentally what I believe is that last at least five to six years there has been a consistency in the direction that electric vehicles are the future and they have been trying to do different policies that whether it's fame whether it's GST reduction on all of these both and we have seen that at multiple state level also in general theme is in the right direction and that has resulted also if you see the penetration is looking at just the three wheeler cargo which is where we have one of our products. Last year it was around like March 5% of the electric cargo that we're selling in India with three wheeler now roughly around 20% of what gets sold is three wheeler just the cargo Delhi we see roughly 50% of what you're selling now in cargo is electric in Bangalore I think it's more than 30% that is some of the number that I love. So fundamentally it's the economics why and one of the reason why Euler decided to take a bet on the commercial vehicle segment and we wanted to say yeah we want to build like something around like Tesla kind of experience for the global world in the commercial vehicle segment and why we should take a bet was fundamentally in the commercial vehicle segment India one road condition payload all of these are very unique it's not the same so you have to build something here to take that the second thing commercial vehicles are utilized a lot hence your saving gets multiplied much faster so anything that you're paying in upfront cost for the similar performing vehicle you end up receiving that sooner so you start making more money within let's just say two years if your subsidies are not there within one year if subsidy is there so I think if subsidies or some of that goes away it will it gets your total cost of ownership sits further but it doesn't die out and that is your fundamental reason so our major I would say what what we had said to government as well in different forums is that if they can continue this fame maybe in whatever shape and size it doesn't have to be like at the same you can always wish for key give us more money and more money but India has plenty of needs right like and they have to allocate money to all the segments so what we believe is even tapering is okay but continue this forward till some of these ecosystem and everything grows second I think what they have done really good is on the making sure the localization bit is not I mean taken advantage I mean there's a solid sort of check on that because that benefits like company like us who are like pushing a lot right on the innovation side trying to build innovation that works for India works for the global scale whether it's in the battery whether it's in the electronics and also solving for that backward manufacturing right like so building at scale so that you can supply to these demand at scale and also build quality product not just anything that works you built out of labs so yeah mainly if they can continue and directionally be there for the next one and a half year even more I think it should be fine your thoughts on this yeah so completely agree with sort of I think it's important for the government to continue because the reason this policy came around was because battery prices were very high to bring parity so until either PLI scheme oriented batteries were to show up in the market I'm fine you know then they're manufactured in India and at a price point that India can afford if it's not happening and lithium prices continue to soar I think it's important for the government to consider it they still have a lot of reserves on the money side I don't think that is a challenge I think perhaps they should also push the commercial banks or to start nothing against NBRC but I think commercial banks need to step in it's important I think from a financing of commercial vehicles it's very very important because that brings the interest rate down it makes it better for them I think the third thing is to some extent you know transportation is a state subject so policy co-evaluate implementation right so I think it's very important for the states also to step forward and it's not just in the form of a stated policy but also something that makes a difference on the ground and they should make a cognitive effort in in making sure that really you know change is happening otherwise it's a 20-page document and it's just floating around thank you so much both of you I think we talked about India's role globally in this entire play and I think in order to do that retailing and nurturing talent is a key enabler of course what Germany has been able to do with you know all their German brands in terms of more the hardware talent and let's say Silicon Valley from a software perspective maybe if I was to ask Amit you from a what can India do or what do India need to do in terms of just retaining the software talent and of course you know Varun and Ram from a hardware and hardware talent perspective because if we were to be successful we really need to ensure that you know our talent stays and of course a lot of the talent which in the global market China US and all is there can actually come back because a lot of them are also Indian origin so I'll see a couple of factors play a role here so first thing is that having the talent associated with a cause like environment and keeping them involved in the actual implementation of that second thing is the glamour associated to a particular career so the more we talk about TV and the more we talk about TV at every stage right from the schooling to engineering and promoting people to take careers not just in software but designing the right batteries materials everything there and then it comes to the potential like how everyone has been talking about the potential which the Indian EV talent is going to have for the global market so if we can help the new not only just entrepreneurs but all the contributors to this tech and the ecosystem to understand that what we all are going to do together so all this is really going to make the more talent to come to this industry something that you know contributed to an enormous is for us to attract talent on bound share the the dockless business was the challenge and the opportunity that that it presented when we were solving for dockless the problem was enormous I mean we were putting unsupervised assets on the road where you could just pick it up anywhere and drop it off anywhere and and this was a challenge that you know the global companies were struggling to solve for and there was no you know there was no solved you know solution that was available from either the west or the east so that was what really attracted the talent to the company and you know everybody was motivated to you know figure out various aspects of this problem break it down solve it see it work and then you know really get that satisfaction from watching it grow so I think that's very similar to what we are seeing today in attracting talent as well the challenge out there is that you know hey the environment is really it's not doing well so I think the 1.5 degrees is something that we've just blown right through and the challenge is very real and the opportunities is pretty huge when we're solving it so this is something that is really you know exciting people of great caliber to work on something and then of course these are wonderful companies where you can make a difference and see that happen on the daily life Ram you you've actually transitioned from from from us to here I mean what prompted you and what do you think can be the enablers to get a lot of the talent which is sitting out there back here one of the the best thing that we found working for us is we are partnering with a lot of the universities we actually partner with them at the second year of their career students where we start giving out projects we work collaboratively and so scout we do scout talent across the globe we do have expats joining us we have on the software side but to make it more sustainable the talent has to be bred in in this country so and it has to start very early so we we partner and we do that apart from that we also look at other industries mobile industry for any kind of connectivity user experience there are a lot of talent in this country there and also the appliance industry which has been using the motors and controllers for a very long time so there are people out there we just have to think a little bit outside the box and and but we are very passionate about becoming the breeding ground of talent in this country so we do work with the universities wonderful my last question to Pankaj as a financier you know when you look at the sustainability topic EV is only one of the things right I mean what are the other technologies that you feel from a financing point of view you are really looking forward to and will be interested going forward so as a muffin green name suggests what we are going to finance is only green currently are out of 250 crore portfolio all is 100% EV so we do not do anything other than EV as of right now but yes we have intend to probably grow in the greener and the cleaner space itself so it could be around funding projects which are in hydrogen funding projects which are a solar laid charging stations looking at different models and different synergies which are clean and green and income generating opportunities thank you so that's those are the questions from me I wanted to open up for the audience to see if we have any questions kindly if you can just pass around the mic someone if I can request just can you please share your name and your question and who is it addressed to hello so my name is Krishna and then this is an open question anybody can address so apparently there are a good number of articles and documentaries in recent days that says that EV is not so green and clean as we expect like obviously the extraction of lithium from its ore cobalt cleaning the I mean the process of cleaning it making it into batteries and then post production right there are even reports saying that when you compare like right in in case of India 60 percentage of electricity comes from thermal power plant right so there was a report that I was looking at recently which says the carbon footprint when you compare to a IC engine and an EV is less than 20% so which totally voids the fact that EV is green and clean how do you guys see it is it really clean or who wants to answer that so I think so yes it's a chicken and egg story that you know probably you know we are moving to EV at least vehicle emission is tailpipe zero so that emission is at least something that we are able to control at one level it's a it's a bigger problem to solve for so probably you know we are at least solving at the vehicle level now there could be certain initiative which could be taken out that you know out of the 70% which is electricity which is generated from the coal it can slowly gradually move to renewable sources of energy and moment it would start happening the impact would be larger and significant in number maybe to also share his perspective sure so your question is valid I think because this is a new domain a new technology everyone is looking at it under the microscope it's not that any other industry is very clean I mean our shoes that we are wearing are made in sweatshops you know steel is not I mean let's not even get there right it's just that if five to six lakh people are dying in our country alone every year because of road transport pollution what's first we have to fix that problem five to six lakh a year realize one like people died in covid there was a national lockdown five to six like every year so we have to fix the problem I understand that there will be these kinds of things and they will get fixed they will also get fixed over a period of time but in the beginning I think you're absolutely right there is no clean solution for it India has gradually created more green electricity now we are at 42% by the way 42% of India's electricity is green we'll get there I think it will be a transition but we will get there yeah any next question hello so while the mainstream mainstream adoption is while away the tech stack is still evolving right whether it is on the battery side you guys talked about how different new technologies are coming whether it is on the charging protocol side or in the EV side how much of a risk you see in terms of sunk costs or fixed investments that early stage companies are making and then the technology becomes obsolete few years down the line even before mainstream adoption arrives and nobody has yet made money on the previous tech stack you know once again I think over there it's not that the current tech stacks are any bad it's only going to get better it's like an evolution in any other industry so even if you have invested in that tech stack and that tech stack is going to deliver according to the warranties and on the basis of those warranties everyone is making money in the process now it's a different thing if the OEM is not able to support the warranty for whatever reason whatever part it might be if that is not the case right if that is not the case then in the ecosystem considering the TCO benefits I think if you look at it whichever way you are going to make money you can make a lot more money if the life of the vehicle is much longer right technology will always evolve there's a reason why every year even in ice there is a new vehicle that is every time you know there's some innovation that's going on so innovation will happen innovation will continue it's only going to make the equation tilt more in the favour of you know better financial management I would say also some of the materials may not really you know invalidate the infrastructure investment that we already made for example if there is a little bit of change in the in the cathode or the electrolyte material it doesn't necessarily invalidate the entire assembly line that you put together to you know put the cells together so yeah I mean like it is still years away before something disruptive comes along and just like pretty much rules everything out but but yeah there is still a lot of investment being made which have already started to realize today and and that that you don't have to wait for or hold the breath for the next technology to come into to pay for it question just follow up from a financing perspective how much of a churn you expect in your portfolio companies because of companies making fixed investments and that not realizing the ROI not realizing so we do not finance companies we finance sx which are used for income generation or any form correct so today we would not finance a company which is manufacturing any product we are going to finance the final product and which is utilized and we would test out a cycle take assurance that you know probably that is something is capable of generating the revenue for that end customer who is buying it that is what we look at when we are financing EVs let me just add one point to what you mean see the technology evolution is happening it's a happening across right we are building product charging ecosystem is somebody setting up these charging station there are certain standard and everything is evolving right similar to your phone also or laptop you had a single that pin kind of a connector then micro usb then you had usb bc and all of that and that evolution is also happening and you had inter portability connectors in between on oem side as well like when you think it is not going to be very different maybe you won't have too many connectors but in last five years i have seen dc 001 i had seen ac 001 there is ccs there is chat of jamedo chidimo that gone right now there so these will continue to happen what oiler stands has been so far is that we need to isolate connectors on one side i mean very very particular to your use case that you were talking about charging station isolate connectors and your other battery and remaining part of the vehicle make it interoperable so that tomorrow if let's just say when we launched product in october of 21 we said oiler has a network of charging stations you can use it at our charging station six months down the line lot of us couple of institutional customer came they said yeah we also have our own network of charging station we want to utilize those we put in software update that vehicle they could connect to their charging station as well now when we are designing the next product we are also bringing them into the part of the process you also tell me where you are thinking of going so that when i'm designing i can also be conscious of which one to put so this curve will evolve i think and it will be a sort of a collaborative approach where we all have to figure that out can i just request in the interest of time probably take the last question this question is largely to pankaj but to everyone as well carbon credits we're talking about sustainability is carbon credits playing a role in the way EV financing and the cost of operating it is coming through and how are you looking at from a finance perspective interesting question so we are focusing on probably i think so we would be India's first nbfc to trade carbon credits in in next three months that's what our first aim is we have initiated our law process and probably we are doing it this carbon credit how once we have a validation of proof of selling or trading in carbon credit as an nbfc for the first time now that is something that we are looking at leveraging carbon credit to raise fund for EVs today the cost of fund which is available for EV financing is much higher today when we talk about to lot of traditional banks they would say that they do not have a EV financing policy so we have a hundred percent EV portfolio so they say that we cannot finance you so today we have to raise funds from various impact based institution or institutions which are funding climate-led funding so that is what we are currently doing but for us to really optimize the cost of fund is that you know how we can use and pass on the carbon credit benefit to our LPIs is the next level of thing that we want to intend to and bring down the cost of fund because today there are policies which are available for manufacturing or penetration of EV but there are no policy available for EV financing in the country correct so if that those are added in terms of you know everybody in the EV financing domain was demanding a priority sector lending correct but it didn't happen so I think so maybe next year but the whole play is that you know the cost of fund until and unless it goes down the penetration and the ripple effect to end customer will not happen so soon. Thank you Pankaj and thank you everyone for patiently listening let me maybe just end by saying you know the transportation industry you know over the many many decades has obviously undergone many innovations but I would see I would say you know the kind of disruption we are seeing now has not been seen over the last maybe four or five decades I mean it's just a fundamental transition in the way we are looking at automotive industry and this is obviously given a lot of the new age companies also an opportunity to play in this space and disrupt it and I would like to thank all of you and maybe I request a big round of applause to all our panelists because these are the guys who are changing and leading this revolution thank you very much


Okay, so I'm gonna try to do this in one take, but let's give it a shot here. Hey guys, what's up? My name is Isaac. I know a lot of you are new here on the page So I just wanted to introduce myself let you guys know what I'm all about I'm passionate about helping people find Jesus and follow him daily And if you've seen any of my content, you know that my content is gospel centered Christ centered And I that's pretty much my my life's mission at this point for the last four years I've been working with my ministry daily disciple trying to get the word out about Jesus and just helping people see what it looks Like to follow Jesus daily, and I just wanted to bring forward something to you My ministry is funded by people on patreon And it is people that give monthly to what I'm doing that enabled me to spend two days a week On this ministry and it's so excited. I'm so grateful to be able to do that my dream is to be able to do this one full time one day and We're not there yet, but I just wanted to ask you I know there's a lot of new people following if you would feel in your heart and sense that God is moving you towards Helping support what I'm doing. I would ask you to head on over to patreon right now Our goal is to get to a hundred patrons and crazy enough. We're at 95 patrons So that means five people to get to our goal for this month. So it would be absolutely amazing five bucks a month sign up Anyway, I just want to let you guys know what was on my heart And Yeah, I'm glad that you're here. I'm glad that you're hanging out and it's getting really noisy here So I'm gonna dip off, but I'll see you guys next time


I'm going to talk today about my feelings around that and I'm going to sort of maybe give you an alternative way to think about this because it's kind of a mixed bag in my view. The idea I guess of setting big golds for yourself is that you know you set this gold and you're going to start to feel maybe that you're pushing yourself outside your comfort zone towards that gold and I understand that. And it's also a big enough gold that you're going to start to get excited about it. So that's good too. But the idea of having a big gold can also bring problems. And what I mean by that is in my view, I think it's much more helpful to never see a gold as bigger than bigger than what? Bigger than you.  That can lead to all sorts of problems there because it's almost like the tail is wagging the dog. It's like the gold is doing me rather than I'm doing the gold. I'm pursuing or moving towards this gold that I set for myself. So I think there's nothing wrong with setting big gold but you should never see the gold as bigger than you or another word I could use there instead of bigger is more important than you. Your own self worth should always be bigger than any gold that you're pursuing. You see, if we lose that perspective the gold, our boundaries around the gold start to get really bad. Again, the gold starts to do us rather than we do the gold and my approach to personal productivity has always been about making conscious deliberate choices from ourselves and not have the gold sort of impose itself and start to dictate where our time and energy should be spent. So yes, there's nothing wrong with having big gold but no gold should be perceived as bigger or more important than you are. It doesn't matter how big it is. So we're back to focusing on self-esteem and if you've followed any of my other videos on procrastination for instance the root problem with procrastination is self-esteem. So framing it as this big gold is really big thing and well if I managed to attain that gold then that will make me a better person. That's problematic. So we want to start off with sort of a positive frame about who we are already before we even have attained the gold and really start to emphasize, look, no matter how this gold goes I do want it, I have a preference for it, I'm open to it but no matter how it goes my self-worth as a human being is not at stake for this. This gold is not bigger than I am. No gold I could set for myself is bigger than me. So this is a way that we affirm our own self-worth and our own self-value and our self-esteem starts to well it's not affected by the gold. Self-esteem is not really related to gold. We have these kind of fantasies sometimes that well once I achieve this gold then I'll feel much better about myself and you know, ask anyone who's achieved a big gold how long that feeling lasts and it's not very long until the next gold comes along. So we can kind of like spend our lives chasing these gold and it kind of prevents us from stopping and just saying, hang on a second here maybe there's an easier way to go about this and more enjoyable way to go about this. So once that self-esteem is our starting point we tend to make a lot more conscious choices about how we proceed in a gold and also we have much healthier boundaries around the action required to fulfill the gold to meet that gold. So I'm just making this video I guess to give you an alternative way to look at any any of those messages you might see about setting big golds for yourself sure be open to big things for yourself and don't be afraid to move very gently beyond your comfort zone not to blast through your comfort zone and terrify yourself necessarily because I don't like that approach. I think you should move to the edge of discomfort when you're moving towards a gold. But really the invitation here is just to let it sink in that no gold that you can ever take on is bigger or more important than you are and I think that's a much healthier place to start. Because I hope this has been useful and as always thanks so much for being with me here and I'll see you again soon. Bye for now.


This house is gorgeous Thank you, I'm loving it.  Thank you so much. Have a good time Thank you This place Is just too beautiful. I know right? So special Of course, why not? Okay, wow, this is awesome. This is so good This is how people are actually enjoying here I didn't know the house is like this here Most of their apartment are like this, you know That's for barbecue here outside party outside Do you know that song? Don't say it's a Kenyan song This place is amazing. That's a fountain. Is that a fountain inside here? Man, even the cat is just having the time of its life So this is how it is the bedroom up there and then You see how the whole estate looks okay, let's go. Yeah, and I'm showing you come telling you Oh my god It's really like in every day in Lusaka Wow See this apartment Very beautiful and cute life Is good in Africa Luxury just simple.   Sorry Sorry, let me cover you I just wanted to see the pool side. I don't want water too. Come on. Just Okay, I'm good. Sorry, babe It's okay. Maybe I could use this scarf. No, my clothes is better Wow, it looks so good. Just a beautiful day in Lusaka Training but the rain won't stop. What is the first impression about this country? Oh, this country is so chilled. It's laid back Yeah, everyone is minding their own business. That's what I've seen so far It's different cool. So far I haven't gone to the CBD. I'm gonna take you to the top building. All I'm seeing is Like individual houses, individual houses. They have like eight states. Yeah, like this one and the one with the other one Yeah, the one I showed you. Yeah, it's really pretty here and yeah This is how Lusaka looks like Welcome to Lusaka. Thank you so much Yeah, this is where you're going to live for two days before we leave to Livingston If you want to see him come. So if you want to work out I don't love walking out. So coming to the pool. Yeah, there's a gym here. You can and there's also a barbecue Over there anytime you want to You can also sunbathe Exactly So just wanted you to enjoy Lusaka before we leave to Livingston. We just want to tell them that Everything is possible in Africa. Oh, yeah Definitely like who would have thought like there's such luxurious places. The homes are very spacious. Yeah, big Very unique, you know classy international standard.  The next one is like, you see they're coming And we are living This video is just wanted to show you just A tip of the iceberg And um, yeah, I'm going to show you more of Lusaka before I leave to Livingston What did I think about this place? Just let us know in the comment section. It's your boy, Mr. Ghana, baby And your girl Mr. D Don't forget that it's 300 stroke 100k before the year ends. Oh, yes Please subscribe to his channel and make sure to 300,000 subscribe and make sure you go to her youtube channel Go subscribe team 100k. You guys, you know, we can't do it. You can't do it. We still have more days to go I am Maya. Peace out


These are your steaks and your meat. They're actually simple to prepare, they're simple to shop for, they're readily available. And even when you're eating out, you can find these whole real foods on any menu. Stick to the simple, basic things, the steak, the piece of fish, the vegetables that are just simply sauteed in some butter, for instance. And you'd want to avoid the processed foods that show up in all the restaurants, and these are things like the breads, and in most cases, the pastas and the sauces. And just stick to the basics, keep it simple. And it turns out that eating real whole food is simpler in many situations than trying to eat or trying to make the processed food alternatives. I think this was one of the biggest eye-opener for me in the book, was when you're eating better, you're gonna feel better, you're gonna make better choices. When you're not eating properly, you feel worse and you're making worse choices. There was an anecdote in there about soda and how it's not natural. And it makes you yearn and hungry for other foods that are not good for you. Yeah, I know you guys talk a lot about mindset on the program as it relates to many different issues. And your nutritional strategy, your way of eating really comes down to mindset as well. And in the book, I go through the seven principles of metabolic health. And the first principle is I want you to think of your health as a system, not as a goal. And I'm sure many in your audience will recognize that. It's what Scott Adams talks about, it's what many others talk about. When you focus on the big picture, the overall system, and then you find the habits that are going to support that system, that is what leads to long-term success. And that is the mindset that is going to lead you to good metabolic health. All too often, we're focused on the short-term goals. We're just telling ourselves, I wanna lose the 20 pounds. When you do that, when you're only focused on the short-term, one of two things is gonna happen. You're either going to be successful, you're gonna lose the 20 pounds, and then you tend to say, great, now you can go back to what I was doing before, and you end up gaining back the weight and more. Or more commonly, you don't lose the 20 pounds, and you get discouraged and you give up, and you say, well, I might as well go back to what I was doing before. And instead, what worked for me, what works for my clients is you get that mindset of I want to be metabolically healthy, and I am going to find the habits that are going to support my metabolic health.


We're here in theCUBE covering the innovations in AI and supercomputing all things HPC and how the high performance computing sector is evolving and changing the world. And in this segment, we're going to take a trip inside compute and HPC solutions and look at the innovations that Dell is driving with its partners and its line of power edge servers and overall it's HPE solutions. And with me are Armando Acosta who's the director of HPC product management Shria Shah, who's the portfolio strategist for AI and HPC both with Dell technologies. Folks, welcome back to theCUBE. Good to see you again. Thank you for having us. All right, let's start with a big picture Armando. The trends, how do you think about the current state of HPC in the context of the latest trends? Obviously, AI is front and center. Data analytics is big. What are the latest advancements in technology as it relates to AI and data analytics that you're seeing? Yeah, no, that's a great question, Dave. So when you look at HPC today, I know we've been talking about the convergence for the last five years, but we do see, you know, truly see that convergence happenings. And so what I mean by the convergence is we see customers asking to run HPC, AI and data analytics workloads on the same cluster to gain economies of scale and scope, return on investment and total cost of ownership. And so when you look at what customers want to do that, that really changes the way they want to build their environments, right? Now they want to have heterogeneous environments. They want to have the ability to have not only CPU and memory nodes, but they also want to have nodes with accelerators and that, right? When you look at AI, this is driving different architectures with CPUs, GPUs, as well as essentially, how do you tie this all together and how do you make it interoperable? So we're really excited about where customers are going, how they're solving these solutions and using HPC and AI data analytics, but it's definitely changing and driving what we're trying to do with our portfolio and making sure that we meet those needs. Great, thank you, Armando. Sure, so based on what Armando just said, how does that inform your strategy? I mean, what specifically are you doing in the portfolio to map to these trends? Yeah, so, you know, as Armando said, right? The data sets are growing. The amount of compute power that's required is immense, right? We're talking about more and more cores. We're talking about, you know, higher frequencies. We're talking about more memory, more bandwidth. And when you put this together, you know, if you look at the compute and accelerator space, right? Be it CPUs, GPUs, FPGAs, or even DSAs, which we think of as domain-specific accelerators, really specialized basics for these workloads, you're seeing that they're getting bigger, right? And the amount of power, thermal dissipated power is growing at a phenomenal rate. So to be able to take these accelerators and be really able to get the maximum value out of it, we have to really size up our portfolio effectively to be able to, you know, be able to bring the performance, really performance per dollar per watt is what we focus on. Right, I mean, I think that's the right way to look at it.  I wonder if we could talk about training versus inference. A lot of the AI work we've seen has been focused on training. We've written that inference is going to explode. AI inferencing, you know, you have all this GPT hype, which is pretty impressive. And it seems like we're rethinking where you do the training and where you run these models. You've got latency considerations. I've talked to customers who say, well, we're going to put this on-prem because we want to show off our supercomputing complex to potential donors, like you hear that from universities. People are worried about IP leakage. Are you seeing customers rethink where they're training their models and where do you see inference fitting? Absolutely. So you're absolutely right.  What happens is that very quickly, we come back to this performance per dollar per watt metric. If you really want to capitalize and maximize that, it makes sense to have this hybrid approach, you know, as you get more and more efficient and as you understand your environment, bring it back on-prem. We have a really great breadth of portfolio. We talked about inferencing, we talked about training, but there's also the, you know, we talk about thermal dissipated power.  Do you need liquid cooling? Can you stay with air cooling? And so this balanced portfolio where you have these heavy workloads like training that require this massive amount of processing power, we have a system XE 9680 that we have focused on for maximum GPU to GPU coherency from a memory aspect to be able to handle these training workloads. On the flip side of it, we have the R760XA that is really fantastic for when you finish training, how do you go implement the inferencing, be it, you know, in the core data center or close to the near edge when you think about the spectrum of cloud core and edge. Okay, so I was going to ask you, what does this all mean for Dell? And I think you just answered it. And essentially you're saying you're optimizing for these specific use cases and workloads. Is that correct? Absolutely. So it's the use cases, but also the implementation.  Well, we have the air cool systems and then we have liquid cool systems as well. So for example, the XE 8640 is a fantastic place for our customers. If they're doing this mixed workload that Armando talked about, both HPC and AI and we have a complimentary system, the XE 9640 that is the liquid cool version of it. So depending on where you are in your journey from a data center aspect and from a workload aspect, we have the right fit for you depending on your journey. Thank you for that. So Armando, what about solutions? You know, I think people wake up, we always love to talk about product, but really it's an outcome, it's taking a solution and applying it to my business to get an outcome. So solutions are really important. So what specific HPC solutions are you delivering? Yeah, so it really goes back to what Trey said earlier, right, use case and what vertical market that customer plays in. So for us, what we do is we call these Dell validated designs. And what we do with these Dell validated designs is we look at specific markets. So for example, we look at essentially research and government, we look at financial services, we look at life sciences, we look at manufacturing. But what we do is with these Dell validated designs we actually give you a true end point of view of how you go and build these environments, right? We look at the different compute building blocks. Australia said, hey, maybe you need that NB link to NB link communication. So that's a good building block. The 9680 is perfect for you. In some other cases, they say, hey, I don't need NB link, but hey, I want to use a 760XA because I do want accelerator. So we look at the different server compute building blocks. We look at the network building blocks. So whether you want to run Infiniband, now there's interest in Ethernet. What can we do with Ethernet and what can we run there and NPI on top of Ethernet? So interesting stuff we're looking at there. And then last but not least is what your storage options, right? If you look at market research today, most of our customers have four to five tiers of storage in their HBC AI and Daniel Lake's environment. So they need us to come in with a point of view and really help them understand, hey, if I want to run this specific use case of financial services and I need low latency and I need the answer as fast as possible, what's the architecture I choose, right? What's a server building block? What's the fabric I choose? What's the storage I choose in order to get that best result? And like you said, it's a business outcome, right? It's, you know, we love to talk about technology because that's what we do, but in the end it's how do we enable our customers to go faster and get that faster time to value? And so these are why we do these validated designs because I don't want them to use their important time and resources, doing benchmarking, optimization and tuning. Let us go do that hard work for you so that you can essentially, you know, use your valuable time to work on your problem and essentially work on your application because that's the value.  We want to do that upfront hard work for you so that you don't have to waste your valuable time and you can get that faster time to value. So how does that work? You do these validated designs in your lab, you work with your customers within these specific like industries, you mentioned research, financial services, life science, manufacturing. And then you validate these designs and then publish them, is that right? Yes, sir.  So we have engineers that, you know, essentially have expertise. So one example, you know, there's a gentleman in our lab, his name is Joshua Wege. He has been working on manufacturing codes for the last 25 years. And so what we do is we work experts like him and he looks at all the different manufacturing codes from ANSYS, Fluent, Siemens, Abacus. And what we do is we look at those codes and we optimize it based on essentially what performance per watt, you know, customers want or performance per dollar or essentially a good, better, best configuration, right? And so where we really, when we try to look for the sweet spots is when you talk to manufacturing customers and they run these ISV codes, they just can't run an unlimited amount of cores because that will triple or double their licensee costs.  And so what we do is Joshua goes and looks at these codes and said, hey, you know, 96 cores not good for you, but the sweet spot in this new architecture where there'd be Intel AMD, hey, 32 cores of sweet spot. And oh, by the way, you get to stay in the same licensee cost, but you get an uptick in performance by 15 or 20% whatever it might be. And not only that, he looked at Ethernet, he looks at fabrics, you know, bit of band, he looks at the different storage options. And then essentially we put it together in an architecture and then we optimize and tune. And then what we do is we produce blogs, we produce solution briefs. And then not only that, we can help you do proof of concepts in our AI and HPC innovation lab to even give you further value for our customers. Got it. What about, you know, we touched on an earlier Amando, but what about clouds, generally about hybrid clouds specifically in terms of where these solutions and PowerEdge fit in? Yeah, so we believe it's both, right? So, you know, some people want to take action, hey, it's one or the other, but we do believe that you do have to take a hybrid approach. You know what Shreya said? A lot of times your data scientists will go to the cloud really quickly because he needs to test something and he needs to say, hey, is there actually value in this model or is there actually value in this data? And so they do that quickly in the cloud, but as Shreya said, you start to grow and start to use more data and as soon as you start to use more models, well, guess what? That data gravity and that data movement piece starts to cost you a lot of money. And so now what you have to do is look at, hey, how do I solve that data gravity and how do I solve that ingress and egress bees? And guess what? It makes it more efficient to run it within your four walls. So what we want to be able to do is, hey, if you ever want to go burst and go to the cloud again, we want to give you options to do that and enable you to do that. And we're not just going to try to lock you into on-premise because like I said, we believe it's both. And so we are going to give our customers flexibility and choice, right? And that's what we do. We have our apex for HBC offers that we have out there today.  And so we're going to give you both and what we want to be able to do is give you this same look and feel whether you do it within your four walls or whether you do it in the cloud. Got it. Last question, I wonder if you could answer maybe Armando, you could start and then Trey, you can bring us home. Give me the pitch. Why Dell, what differentiates your solutions from the competitors in HPC and how does the company plan to stay ahead of the curve going forward with all this, the pace of the market is just accelerating? Pitch me. Yeah. So for us, when you look at, you know, Dell and you look at the way we approach solutions is we give you that in point of view so that you can make the most educated decision on what's best for you. And then not only that, I have invested millions and millions of dollars in our HPC AI Innovation Lab where we can go execute and help you do proof of concepts and show you the value before you go and invest all these dollars. And here's the beautiful thing about this is when we go and execute these POCs, we work with our customers, we design it and guess what? We don't charge you to do this because we believe that if we can democratize HPC and we can lower the barrier of entry, more customers will jump into high performance computing and it'll be better for all of us. And so when you look at why we're differentiated, it's our experts, it's our HPC AI Innovation Lab and it's the way we build our Dell Validate designs to give you a more vertical market approach and also to teach you how it'll be specific to help you solve your problem for your use case. That's a nice freebie. All right, Shreya, we'll give you the last word here. I think Armando did a fantastic job. What I'd add to that is there's two points the way I think about it. It starts with the architectural design. As much as everybody believes that all infrastructure is created equal, it is not. And so all the work that we do in our labs to make sure you're getting that maximum performance. And then as we think about the lifecycle, you have to deploy these massive systems. How do you go do that? And so we have our deployment and support services. But on top of that, if you're in that journey where you're not capable, for example, of liquid cooling, we have our modular data center team that can actually take these deployments, rack and stack it and just drop it on your side. And all you have to do is cable up your power and we take care of all the other requirements. And so that's one piece of it. The systems management, how do you keep it together? How do you keep upgrading and maintaining it? That's another really big piece that Dell focuses on. So that's one part of it. But the second piece that kind of Armando touched on is it's the people at Dell that really make this special, that make it come together. The AI HPC innovation team is an example. But as we think about how do we keep the knowledge base together, we have a really big HPC community as well that we focus on, that we bring together. Armando, maybe you want to talk about that a little bit. Yeah, so the other big thing we do is with our HPC community, I don't know if you had some time today, but we run it every Wednesday. Today we talked about MPI and where it's going, where it needs to go in the future there. But with our HPC community, really what it is, it's about the community, it's about our partners, it's about us, it's your customers coming together so that we share knowledge, we share what we're doing with our specific research. And then not only that, like I said, we educate each other so we can raise all boats. And so thank you, Shreya, for reminding me about that and tying in the HPC community event. She gave me another freebie. But yes, that's huge with us. We do want to make sure that we build a community and we do want to make sure that we share our expertise and that we make everybody better. And like I said, democratize, optimize, and advancing. That's our strategy and that's core to what we do with the community. This is cool. So it's dellhpc.org, I'm just on the website now. And you can request to join and you guys run these sessions. Looks like, like you said, every Wednesday or actually more frequently, right? Is it every Wednesday? Yeah, okay. It's every Wednesday. And if you're at ISC next week, yeah, you know, we'll be there. We'll have a live event. And so please join us. We'd love to have you. That looks great. In addition to that, Dell Technologies World will also be operating at the same time that ISC will look out for some very exciting announcements on the AI solution side of the house as well. Excellent. Okay, folks, thanks so much for your time. Really appreciate it. Great to have you again. Thank you very much. We appreciate it. All right, keep it right there for more innovations in HPC. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of ISC 23.


Allô, ma dânîm pasho shîm, look it up. I coined the phrase, sadistic supply, to describe a form of empowerment that caters to a highly specific type of grandiosity. Sadistic personality disorder has been removed from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual Edition 4 to the great chagrin and resentment of the likes of Theodor Millen and to a much lesser extent myself. Yes, I think there is such a thing as sadistic personality disorder, and there are sadists. Sadists are people who derive pleasure from the pain, discomfort and humiliation of others. And when sadism is coupled with narcissism, for example, in dark, tetrad personalities, this pain, discomfort, humiliation, shame of other people serves as narcissistic gratification. It serves a narcissistic purpose. But introducing the concept of sadistic supply created a bit of a confusion. Exactly like narcissistic supply, sadistic supply upholds a self-image. Grandio's inflated, fantastic self-perception, the sadistic, the sadist perceives himself as godlike with power over others. Sometimes sadists are moralizing, and so they say, I'm not being a sadist, I justly punish the wayward, I am on a crusade, I'm on a campaign. Many social activists and many people in victimhood movements are actually sadists. They like to inflict pain and discomfort and humiliation and shame on their opponents under the guise of attaining the high moral ground, promoting some social cause, or writing some wrong. We should distinguish, however, between sadistic supply and narcissistic supply. And this is the topic of today's mini lecture. My name is Sam Baknin, I'm the author of Malignant Self-Lab, Narcissism Revisited, and I'm a visiting professor of psychology. So let's delve right in, there are two forms of supply, narcissistic and sadistic. They both serve to buttress, uphold, support, affirm and confirm grandiosity. Narcissism is a cognitive distortion, and any attention that comes from the outside, from external sources, regulates the sense of self-worth so that it conforms to the fantastic grandiose self-image of the narcissist. So sadistic supply and narcissistic supply are two types of supply consumed by narcissists in order to regulate their internal environment, and in this sense, supply is a form of external regulation. In any given, in any given set of circumstances, in any given environment, with any given set of people, the narcissist feeds off either narcissistic supply or sadistic supply, but and this is a very important point, never both, never both. If the narcissist is addicted to narcissistic supply, he will rarely, if ever, resort to sadistic supply, and if the narcissist is also a sadist, and he feeds off sadistic supply, he's going to shun, is likely to shun narcissistic supply. When you see a narcissist who is overt in your face, grandiose or self-aggrandizing, bragging, boastful, delusional, initiator of shared fantasies, and so on and so forth, this is a narcissist who is addicted to narcissistic supply. It's not, it's not a sadistic narcissist, and he does not feed off sadistic supply. When the locus of grandiosity is narcissistic, when the locus of grandiosity is histrionic, sadistic supply is actually perceived as negative, and results very often in narcissistic injury. I'm going to explain this because it's very counterintuitive. Even a narcissist who says, I'm the best father ever, I'm an amazing husband, I'm a great boss, I manage people well, I make them loyal to me, I make them love me. These are, of course, grandiose statements, and these statements require doses and influx of narcissistic supply in order to be sustained in the face of countervailing contradictory reality, the grandiosity gap. So this kind of narcissist who considers himself to be the best ever, the best ever anything, especially morally, you know, and the most honest person I know, justice means everything to me. I never commit crimes. I am pro-social and communal, not anti-social. This kind of narcissists, they would never resort to sadistic supply because sadistic supply would create dissonance in them, unable to deny what the reactions of their victims unable to ignore the pushback and sometimes the reactive abuse emanating from their victims. This would create in them dissonance and anxiety. If I say, if the vert grandiose narcissist says, I'm the best husband ever, and then he egregiously, sadistically, horribly abuses his wife, she's likely to pushback, she's likely to resist, argue, criticize, attack him, abuse him reactively. So this would constitute a conflicting message. Internally, the narcissist message is, the narcissist self-message is, I'm the best husband ever, but all the information coming from the environment, from his wife says otherwise and this creates internal dissonance, which is a very uncomfortable situation and generates anxiety. So grandiose narcissists would never be sadistic. They would never torture, humiliate, shame, attack, abuse, coerce. They would never do this because they would be terrified of being exposed to signals and messages from their victims, which would undermine their own grandiose self-perception and self-image. In short, with the grandiose overt narcissists, sadistic supply expands the grandiosity gap and the grandiosity gap creates dissonance in a conflict and anxiety, which the overt grandiose narcissists, the classic narcissists, wants to avoid. These narcissists are likely to be fake, pretending unctuous, they are likely to play act, they are likely to have thespian skills, they are likely to manage everything, as a theater play, removing within which they are the virtuous, sanctimonious protagonist and they are likely to abstain from overt, in-your-face, hurtful abuse because this would generate information, this would generate reactions from their victims, which would undermine the entire edifice of their grandiosity. Similarly histrionics, histrionics are after attention. These are people who are addicted to attention, men and women. This would never engage in sadism, they would never seek sadistic supply because both the overt grandiose narcissists and the histrionic have an image of themselves, a perception of themselves, as essentially good people.  And they compensate for this by generating, creating a false self, which is the exact opposite, perfect, perfectly good as well. Sadistic behavior and the ensuing sadistic supply, however uplifting because sadistic supply to the sadist is uplifting. But with the classic overt narcissists, the narcissists who is after narcissistic supply, sadistic supply is precluded. That is not to say of course that narcissists don't abuse, they're highly abusive. I was the first to say this in 1995, I coined the phrase narcissistic abuse. But their abuse is not sadistic. The narcissists abuse is instrumental. It is intended to accomplish certain goals, for example, to separate from the partner, to test the partner, etc., etc. The narcissists abuse, the overt grandiose narcissists abuse has nothing to do with inflicting pain or hurt on his victims. It has everything to do with regulating the narcissists internal environment.  Not because he wants them to be uncomfortable or humiliated or ashamed or disgraced. That has nothing to do with it. The narcissists misbehave this way because he needs to obtain certain signals and messages from the environment, which will allow him to keep his house in order internally to maintain the precarious balance of his chaotic personality. In short, the narcissists abuse, however egregious, is a regulatory function. It's a form of external regulation. They say this abuse is a form of gratification. That is a giant difference between these two types. And one should not conflate or confuse them as all or most self-styled experts do. They attribute to the narcissist malevolence. They mistake the narcissist for a sadist when actually he's not in the remotest. Of course there are some narcissists who are sadists, and they are sadists who are narcissists. But the vast majority of narcissists hurt people because this is the way for them to regulate themselves. Both the lines do the same, in effect, we'll come to it in a minute.  Okay, psychopaths are also damaged people, hurt people, harm people. They do it with premeditation and intention, the goal-oriented. Some psychopaths are sadistic. Psychopaths who are also sadistic. And sadists, people with the now discarded diagnosis of sadistic personality disorder. So these two types, the sadistic psychopath and the sadist, they seek only sadistic supply. They are not interested in narcissistic supply. They actually want to fly under the radar, they want to remain hidden. These people derive sustenance for their own grandiosity from the very fact that they have the power to hurt other people, that they are in the position to cause other people to disintegrate, to make them ashamed, make them feel ashamed or humiliate them, especially in public. But this is not a narcissistic thing. That's where the confusion online is enormous and you are being misled. This is not a narcissistic thing. This is a psychopathic, a sadistic psychopathic thing or a sadistic thing. Narcissists generally are interested only in one thing and that is narcissistic supply. They couldn't care less if when obtaining narcissistic supply, while obtaining narcissistic supply, they're hurting other people. Hurting other people is a byproduct, it's a side effect with narcissists. It's not a goal, it's not an aim, it's not what the narcissist strives for. The narcissist doesn't derive any gratification and is not invested emotionally, is not affected in sadism, in hurting people, in damaging people, in ruining people. Narcissists don't care about any of this because they don't care about people. Sadistic psychopaths and sadists regard people as raw material. They play with people. They weigh children, disassemble toys, dismantle them. They want to see the inner workings of people. It's a pastime, it's a hobby, it's an avocation for the sadistic psychopath and the sadist. The narcissist would have none of this. If you see someone in pursuit of fame and glory and recognition and so on and so forth, that's a narcissist. That's a narcissist who is very unlikely to engage in sadistic behaviors. He is likely because he's a narcissist who hurt people, but that's an afterthought. It's done absentmindedly and offendedly. And finally, borderlines alternate between these two types of supply, narcissistic and sadistic. They are capable of both and they pursue both types of supply depending on the self-state. When the borderline is in a secondary psychopathic self-state, she is usually, or he is usually very cruel to the point of sadism. The borderline enjoys inflicting pain because she regards it as retribution, redressing evil, restoring justice. That is how she mislabels her sadism. You remember previous video I explained to you that the borderline is goal-oriented, but she dresses up her goals with emotions. She mislabels her goals, she mistakes her goals for emotional states. That is a form of resolving cognitive dissonance. The borderline feels uncomfortable with what she's doing. So by relabeling it or mislabeling it, she restores her inner balance and her anxiety level is reduced. The borderline is capable of great sadism. Any partner of borderline will tell you that. Many borderlines are vindictive and aggressive to the point of violence that is in the secondary psychopathic self-state, in their normal state, in the classic borderline state. Borderlines seek supply which is narcissistic but from a particular source, usually an intimate partner. So like narcissists, borderlines are fantasy pro, they are grandiose, they seek narcissistic supply but unlike narcissists, they are capable of switching to another self-state where they could become exceedingly, exceedingly sadistic and dangerous.


I will be uploading the audio of this live stream as a podcast to SoundCloud.com over Slash Gijo, C-H-Y-C-H-O. And this podcast should be available on your favorite podcasting platform, including Spotify and iTunes. And I doubt it very much if we're going to upload this to SensorTube. We'll see where the discussion takes us. Segments, most likely, will be loaded on SensorTube, but the full live stream will 100% be loaded on BitShoot, Rumble, and Odyssey. So if you want to follow this work, if you want to support this work, if you want to know what we are doing here, you don't want to be just on SensorTube. You want to be on BitShoot, Rumble, and Odyssey. Okay, aside from that gang, welcome, welcome to another live stream.