Yeah, thank you very much Jonas Malotki for joining and Jonas von Malotki and yeah, we're here at the First Asia Summit starting with the next session. I would like to introduce Jonas quickly. Jonas holds a diploma in computer science and Japanese studies from University of Bonn. So with this connection between Europe and Asia. He's a perfect speaker here at the First Asia Summit and Jonas main focus topics where meter data and data quality as well as neural networks at his studies within Daimler. He held various leadership roles for central systems. He has a keen interest in new technologies and the open source movement. Currently, he's the CEO of Daimler Projects GmbH, a 100% subsidiary of Daimler with a focus on product data and VR slash AR technologies. For the Daimler Group, he was leading the blockchain activities from the technology perspective and was a member of the Hyperledger Governing Board. We had Brian here a few days ago, so that's a great connection again. And furthermore, Jonas is currently shaping the open source strategy for Daimler. So a lot of information already in your bio and we're looking forward to getting really deep insights now. So thank you and welcome very much Jonas von Malotki. Thank you, Mario. Thank you a lot. As I already joined a little bit by accident, the panel discussion, but it felt awfully familiar because actually we were at Daimler. We were with First Asia in 2017 and I will show you a little bit around what has been happening since then. As Mario already said, I'm currently the CEO of the Daimler Projects GmbH, which is a kind of special legal entity in Germany. What we do as a 100% subsidiary is a lot of tech and I have something here as well that I will try to share with you and try to invite you to be really part of that. And in 2017, we came to First Asia and said, yeah, you know, we are doing open source and want to engage. And you know, what Daimler does is build cars and trucks, essentially. And those, I mean, you cannot have those without any software nowadays. And that's why also we became a member of the Linux Foundation and said, yeah, okay, in January 2017, we joined the Automotive Grade Linux. We joined Hyperledger because we thought that with Blockchain, there's something really going on and we want to design the future of software and the future of data exchange there. And we're still a member of Hyperledger, yet, you know, the hype cycle took it a little bit that it was more difficult to stay on track. Still, we are doing a lot with that and we are still on the Forbes 50 list with the whole blockchain, Forbes 50 blockchain list. And then we came in 2017 to First Asia and saying, yeah, you know, we are going to do more in FOS. And we were thrilled really to engage in those activities and really wanted to make a difference and really wanted to dive into that. And we had a big program set up, so to speak, where in this company we wanted to really make it happen that we have access to open source and also going to contribute to open source.  And if you if you think about big companies, global enterprises like Daimler with a lot of history as well, then it's always good to look at that that good things will take a while. So the question is, where are we now? Are we there yet? And why is this actually taking so long? And yeah, maybe maybe a view of how you could see how the open source development is going on into big into big companies. Just a glimpse of it into into the view.  We have a long history. We have a lot of processes there already. So we have to navigate through it. And actually, it's not like the open source world in itself. It's not very complex. Because if you think about how many different license types are there, and how different kinds of obligations are also put to that, that's not an easy task. I think we have over 1000 licenses documented in our license charts and and instruction specific instruction how to deal with those licenses and and what you have to oblige to. I mean, it's pretty obvious. If you have any kind of permissive license, then you're usually a little bit more on the easy side. If you have a copy left license, then usually it's a little bit more complicated to go through that. And you have to really think about hard in a legal sense yet also in an engineering sense how to really integrate it into a product or so. Yeah. So this really also is one of the parts there. It also adds to these to the things that you have to check and have to go through and then of course on on certain areas of the of the world. The whole pattern stuff is really something. Since we are a global company, patterns are always a thing of concern, and we have to see how do we actually deal with that. And especially if you combine software and hardware in a product, usually also patterns get to to a certain degree quite the essence of what you're doing. Yeah. So combining that is already complexity and not so easy. Then you you start thinking about, OK, what kind of tooling will you also have? So how do you can how can you actually change? And how can you actually be sure that the right stuff you're doing and that you have a certain license compliance, for instance. And you you know that you fulfill the obligations and everything. So that is a common common problem. So you start to think about how can you can you actually do it? Then further on, certainly from a company coming from intellectual property rights and protecting vehicle and protecting also the intellectual property that comes with it. There's a lot of thing you have to do in a company with regards to mindset. You really have to be to be an advocate for what you stand for. Because the first reaction would always be, I mean, it's good if you use open source. That's super good because there's no problem. That's that's good. We get something. Yeah. But then you try to talk to them. Yeah. How would it be if we wanted to also open source stuff from ourselves? Then usually it's like, why would I give away something? Yeah. And we try to came up with with this idea, share something to get so bad back so much more. And also this mindset of things is, why should I take something and give something back into the community? I mean, we just find those kinds of prejudices in the company. And the question is, why should I give something back now? And we had Greg also over there and he was saying something which was really good. Everybody just open source in a selfish way and yet it helps to really progress the whole thing. And we try to really explain and you have to explain to management and to also engineers why it makes sense to not do a fork and keep everything for yourself, but really do a fork and give something upstream again. But then as you know, it's a big company. So you have laws and regulations and then you have to try to find stuff like how do we deal actually with certain parts there? I could give you an insight, for instance, how do you deal? And there was also something with GitHub going on and sanction lists, for instance, and that is something big companies always have to check for. So how do we make sure that we actually don't give any contribution into an area where it's not allowed? And how can we make sure that the engineer does it in the right way? And so on. So that is something which as to the overall complexity, if it's only a small local problem, that's usually not a big thing. But if it's in the world, it's not so easy to actually make that sure. And I think actually open source in a way is a big enabler for that. We also saw all those kind of trade wars between China and the U.S. And a few actually said that if we open source this and this, then we don't have a problem in that. So there was already a little bit of going of this idea is going on. And then as you know, it's a big company. So you have to go to scale as we set into in the beginning of our journey. It really was was only a few people starting only three people out of the IT department out of the R&D so research and development department and out of legal to really set this whole thing up. But once you open the door, then you have up until 50,000 people essentially or could be doing open source. So you really have to think about how do I do it that we have something that it actually scales. And that was, to be honest, a task we kind of underestimated to build everything this way that everything works. I have one one small anecdote there. I always said, you know, if in a big company, I don't know anything about text regulations. I don't know anything about this and this. And in a big company, you always have somebody of something you don't know who made his PhD about that. And so certainly you have to talk with a lot of people. And this was really like a round throughout the whole company to find out where do we have to stick to which kind of laws, regulations, rules and so on and even make it possible to scale. So what happened? We surely came up with building blocks there. First of all, you need a little bit of view in a big organization. What is the organization of that kind of endeavor you're doing? What are the roles in there? What is the accountability of the role and so on? Who decides on what, where do you do something? And even describing a role within an enterprise, for instance, what has a maintainer to do? If you publish an open source, whether it be on your on your GitHub page or in an organization, you always have to think about, yeah, you need a maintainer. And this kind of roles, they have to be described for big enterprise or else nobody knows what to do there. Certainly, I mean, fortunately, there are there are already good descriptions there and you can just take them, but you have to internalize them for what kind of also capacity time is behind that and so on. Then you certainly need processes. How do you actually do an open source publishing? How do you actually do an an merge request? And how do you actually do something in a software? You want to you want to influence or you want to really do something in there because you need it and you need this kind of particular feature in that. Then, as you as already mentioned, you need the platforms and tooling and also the platforms that that help you and really do something. And actually, the biggest surprise for us was that we with our open source endeavor, we also build up our inner source and and try to make people learn that sharing is a good thing. And that there's a lot of benefit coming from that. And we build up an open source and source repository system. And we for the first year in 2019 or in 2018. No, in 2019, actually, we thought that we will maybe reach 5000 developers there. And actually, we reached in, I think, not only eight months, we reached around over 10,000. So this was really was something that surprised us and also how many people were starting to really develop stuff in inner source. Yet, we really would also like them to open more up so that the inner source could happen because what actually happened is that a lot of people put repositories there and help them in private. And that's not how inner source works. So, but you can see that also tools like that and we also had some tools for license compliance, for instance. And actually, with all those projects on that, we immediately had some problems in the way it scales because it took just too long. And we had to double up on multiple instances so that people could work to bring all that together and to the people because that is a learning endeavor. You need to train us. And we came up with the idea of, let's do something which is called the driver's license. And people have to have to finish a driver's license for contributions, for instance, or have to finish a driver's license for being a maintainer so that we actually know that all the rules that I elaborated on earlier have been really appalled to and they know how to navigate through this complex word there. Yeah, essentially that's it. So how successful did it become? Unfortunately, we made it. Our first open source release was a small library called Vehicle Information Service. You can see that here on our GitHub page, GitHub.com slash Daimler. I always said this is a small step for the developer, but a big step for this company because we really had to try out everything there, our whole processes and so on. We sat together in a room at the time it was still possible and thought of, did we do all the steps right there? And then we had the guy, Marcel, over who's publishing this and the whole team doing the whole processes was sitting there and looking over his shoulder. Does it really work? Because it was the first test, the first pilot to read right out. Nowadays, I think we have around 20 different projects there. It's a little bit more in terms of repositories, yet it's only a small endeavor there. We have accumulated, I counted that two weeks ago, around 270 stars. So that's really in the beginning still. We are just entering that space, but I'm really happy that we made it and that we also built the processes to really have the open source releases there. And here's one thing I really wanted to share with you. I really wanted to share with you about what we are doing with Daimler projects. We have built a learning platform that combines learning and knowledge acquisition, learning and really looking up knowledge you already have. And certainly it's something that we wanted to be intuitive and have a little bit of gamification in there. And because we usually also, in my company, Daimler projects, we help other departments to learn new stuff, made it with augmented reality or a plane. How do you do this kind of system? How do you do that? As I became the CEO, I really asked, can we, that's a good thing. Can we actually open source that? Because our business model is not using that kind of license fees there. And we said, yeah, why not? We can actually open source that. And after a few weeks, we came up with a plan and we said, yeah, that's a good thing. Let's put it on to GitHub. You can find it there. It's built on, as always, on open source components in this time of WordPress. And we put a lot of materials and stuff around there you have to have for learning management systems. So how can you build also academy stuff? How can you be, how can you build a course, for instance? And if you build that as a course, you also have the possibility to later on have a person who was like, I learned that one time, where can I find it again? And that was something, I think, which is different in a term that most learning systems, you have this course and just run through it. And then after that, if you want to look up something of that course, it's really difficult to find it again. And that's why it has here the academy and the part where you also can look up the stuff. And find us on GitHub. It's an humble invitation for collaboration. I think it's a good thing and we really would appreciate also a lot of comments there and really would also be happy if you would like to engage there. And we would also be open in a sense to at some point give it over if it's incubated there to Eclipse Foundation or Linux Foundation, wherever it may fit best. So that is also good. So you're seeing we are making progress there, but that's not all. Not only publishing is one of the parts there, but we also have to engage with a developer. And if you want to see how we do that, we have Wolfgang here over here at the FOSPEC talking about the Daimler TSS, which is another subsidiary with a lot of developers in there about the FOS manifesto and out of the open source program office, which is called FOS COC, so center of competence for us. We immediately liked the idea and elevated this manifesto to the whole Daimler world. So this is really a good thing because I think management is one thing, but also empowering the developer that it's actually allowed. You can do that. Please do it. Please also before you write something, please look it up in the open source world if there's already something that you can just reuse. And if you find something and you want to fix something, please give it back to the community because in the end it's really helping us all. So that's kind of stuff we also did. And we are trying to push that through the organization for the whole company and encourage certainly the usage, engage in the right communities. I think now we have a good contribution record in terms of Kubernetes and the CNCF. I think we have over 30 years, 30 years of merge requests that were accepted there and it shows you that out of this really big program, the first runners really come out and do something in the open source world and that really is a thing that definitely makes me proud that out of this big enterprise with this kind of obstacles we really didn't foresee in the beginning making to make more and more sense that it actually happens. And that's one of the questions usually we get asked, why does it take so long? And I hope I could give you a little bit of insight in what a learning journey in a big company looks like and how much you have to do to really be in this open source space. And so in the end I can only tell you, may the FOS be with you and that's what I always end with my FOS talks in Daimler to really make people understand that this is a thing which is not going to go away and we really want to embrace it. And I think maybe we have a little bit of time for questions. Okay, thank you very much Jonas and yes indeed we have some questions and everyone please add additional questions to the shared notes. So the first question is this, the learning platform that you released on GitHub I don't know if it's on GitHub or on your own platform so the learning platform that you released, do people in the community use it or contribute to it? Could you please share the link here? Yeah, the link is just github.com slash Daimler and then you'll find the DP learning platform. We will have to find a new name for it because that's not very inventive actually yet it's built on WordPress. I don't think that we have any community contribution yet and we really have to also engage in this kind of development in the open process that we really make it happen. That is something we are currently doing but I'm really happy that we already made it through the whole process to really open source it and would really like because that's a problem a lot other companies and other organizations as well have in conveying and with COVID-19 the whole situation here also at home and learning remotely has become a lot more present than it has in the times before. Okay, and the next question, what are the next steps? What's the roadmap? Yeah, the roadmap definitely is really bring it to the organization we have the processes, we have the tools and so on but now it really comes up to enabling developers getting developers also to know that they are allowed to do it getting everybody in there that they are really also keen on doing it because in the beginning usually for a developer sometimes it really looks hard to do that because we have a big wiki where the process is described for instance and the developer first has to look in there and see there is a normative section what is the rules then there is definitely a how-to section and how to really do a merge request with all the stuff within GitHub for instance and that should help but it's a lot about advocacy at the current time so really we try to advocate for the stuff that you can do it and then try to learn again from the developer what went well, what isn't going so well so that we have the possibility to really also improve the processes because no process you start is from the beginning right perfect that doesn't work this way so we really also have to listen there and that's where we currently at I would say we have a few leaders in there they are doing now it's their daily work to do a merge request with Kubernetes or doing for instance working in the open on their own open source project but that's only a few, only a fraction, a small fraction of the people we actually have working with software and we really want to enable everybody and that just takes some time Wow everybody that's a big goal so the next question here do you have any coding programs that students can participate in and that's Roman asking Yeah I put this kind of item on a slide and it's on our roadmap at some point the question is when so if you would like to engage that's definitely something we would like and yeah we don't have a structured program yet but we are thinking about it and how to build it up for instance we joined the GitHub sponsoring program and I think we are one of those first who made it possible from the company side and made it into an announcement with NAT that's cool and that's not structured so that's essentially giving out money to developers in areas where we think it makes sense for us but for students as I said it's on the roadmap we don't have it yet if you are happy to do it then just drop me some emails I think that might be an overlap that we could also join up I don't know what you are exactly doing with GitHub but I know that we are talking with GitHub all the time because they are asking us how to do developer programs and they are running one in the US and the next one will be now in India so it seems to me a bit that we could also maybe collaborate directly with each other so we would definitely be interested in and yeah we have the Cotehe program so anyone who is watching Cotehe program this year will run still until the month of June so I hope it's okay to make a bit of advertising here in your session for that absolutely, we want everybody to engage okay great so then maybe I also jump quickly to question number 5 because the question here is related how can developers in Asia join your projects do you have any contacts in Asia? yeah we do have contacts in Asia we have a big company in China actually we have also in Japan but there is less of development I think China is a little bit bigger in terms of development also people in Malaysia and so on so maybe there is something I could find that out I don't have that with me currently but the best place to really engage with the open source projects we have is our current github page github.com which we try to really bring all the even subsidiaries that we have within the Daimler group together on one central point so some of the things there might be even out of Asia so that might be a good way to start and if there is not maybe you can contact me so we don't have time anymore there are more questions coming up and one question is for example can you share a bit about the open source release process at Daimler I think that would be an entire session probably to discuss this topic but I don't know if you have any resources or links that you could share here on the shared notes that we really engaged and maybe have future sessions on the topic that was just mentioned by Stephanie Wong so Jonas, it's always a pleasure to welcome you at our events and good to see you again and it's really exciting to see the next steps of Daimler that you took like your first engagement with for example the first Asia community was great and we see things are coming out of it and you continue to work in the free and open source software community maybe even hardware, I don't know hardware was a big topic here at the summit so definitely we are looking forward to hear about your steps here next and in the future thank you very much for joining us it was a pleasure thank you always a pleasure to be here and it's super familiar to be here in Asia even virtually I really had a little bit the feeling that we were so that's really great and I hope you have a good day and my commitment you can see by looking at the time so it's seven o'clock in the morning in Germany and Saturdays that would be something which usually would yield an index out of bounds exception with my clock and Hovuk just came into the broadcasting room here and wanted to say hello Hi I want to ask you if you can say a few Japanese words to our Japanese viewers Good morning I'm from Germany and my name is Rofi Nice to meet you please Perfect, thank you Please open source Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you


What up everybody once again is brand man Sean and I'm back with Sir Love from Phase 6. I know you guys remember in front of that first video we did and there were questions that didn't have the opportunity to get answered, didn't want the video to be too long. But we're going to jump right into some more. This one is from the Andre Richardson. Yes, we haven't forgot about you sir. What exactly is a 360 deal? A lot of people don't understand that so break it down for us please sir. Okay, 360 deal is basically the record label becoming your manager in short because a manager has always had a 360 deal with an artist. What a 360 deal stipulates is that the record label will be able to make money off of everything that you do. That means if you do endorsements, sponsorships, anything outside of just selling records when you go on a tour, when you sell merchandise, anything that comes into your coppers the record label will get a piece of and then you get to negotiate that percentage. Well a lot of people don't know when you think 360 is that you actually negotiate that percentage. It might be 10% which is not as big of a deal as someone has given up 30%, 40%. So 360 deals in my personal opinion, contrary to popular belief, they're not necessarily bad deals. What record labels have also done is they've turned around and given artists a larger percentage of the record sales. In the past, artists would give maybe, it was a big deal when Janet Jackson got a dollar per album. Now artists, that's nothing. Now artists are able to make good money off of each sale. I was watching it. I was watching to make sure he was going to be good. It wasn't on you. But he kept looking. He kept looking at it.  Let me get that right. No, I was making sure it didn't. If it got too close, I was going to have to stop. But I didn't want to stop the flow. So I was like, you know, how you miss that? It was hanging just right there for you. All right, my bad. There was a spider that kind of took over the set for a second. But back to what sir was saying, you were kind of explaining how the 360 deals got a bad rep or why you think of them differently. Yeah. So 360 deals. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. So 360 deals got a bad rep or why you think of them differently? Yeah. So 360 deals, they have a really bad rep right now at this time. And that really came from artists. At one point in time, everyone knows that pretty much aware of its common knowledge at this point that record labels were taking advantage and janking around a lot of artists. And so when it got to the point that, you know, record labels started to lose sales after the whole natural debacle and things of that nature, artists began to, you know, they got hurt. We're looking like, huh. Oh, it's your turn now. It's your turn to go through what we went through. And then when labels responded by saying, well, since we're hurting, we want a piece of what you have. Artists got really offended. And that's how 360 really got a bad name before an artist is starting off for the first time. You got to understand that you don't have that baggage. You don't have that history of all those issues. The truth is, if you had a manager and the manager wanted 20%, you're going to give up the 20% to the manager who's there to help your career. The label is like another manager, except for their manager and an investor. So they're going to come in and have an influx of cash, which your manager most likely will not have. And they may toss you 200,000, 300,000. If you're really big, a million, have a much, they're going to advance you this money to push your career. And then they're going to want X amount of percentage out of it for return. Just like the standard investment deal. They're going to want some ownership and equity. The thing that you want to watch out for with a 360 deal is the same thing that you look out for for any deal, right? Which is, what are you going to own? Who owns the songs? Who owns the publishing? How does ownership work in the long term? How fast, what price points do I have to pay this money back? What percentages are you going to take from my revenue to pay this money back? That's a standard record deal conversation. It doesn't have anything to do with a 360 or not. So make sure they're not taking too much of a percentage. And also remember that you can negotiate. A lot of artists don't think about that standpoint. Not only can you renegotiate, but even after the end of a contract term, but sir was just talking about how every album you were saying after every project, you can renegotiate. After every project, you got to understand that you can negotiate. There's no record deal that you can't get out of. You can get the right attorney, you can spend the right amount of money and you can get out of the record deal. So if you drop your project and you are largely successful, the record label is going to renegotiate right after that release to try to keep you there because you can renegotiate, leave and go to another label and probably have another smash success. They want that money in their house. So they're going to renegotiate. You can renegotiate after every single album. Now, if your first album is horrible, doesn't do any sales, doesn't, doesn't grow any units or anything of that nature, may be harder to renegotiate, but you know, none of us are striving for failure. So if you are successful, renegotiation will happen at the end of every album. Right. So if you can use that machine, well, don't allow them to take too much of your money, but use them as a launching pad to get to a certain level of success and visibility. And then when you have the opportunity to renegotiate, give yourself an even better deal. A 360 deal could be the deal for you. Yeah. And additionally, you've got to remember that you're going to get access to the resources. The problem with a lot of artists that are taking these deals is that they don't have a strong enough business team. They're not going to the label as a business, so they don't necessarily know how to use the label. Right. The label is a tool. The label, you know, we kind of have this facade that the label is going to magically make people famous, you know, and that facade has broken down and deteriorated over the years because the label has failed to magically make artists famous and make artists rich, but really, they're just a tool. Yeah. So you have access. Now you have access to Grammy opportunities. Now you have access to, you know, all the biggest television shows. Now you have access to all the biggest booking agencies. Now you have access to the biggest publishers. Now you have access to the biggest touring companies. Like now you have access. And if your team has been operating on a small level, doing those exact same things on a small level, when you move to the record label standpoint, you will already know what to do. You'll just be doing it at a higher scale. Right. So, and you guys don't hear me talk too much about the record label and how you can use record labels because I am so pro-independent in some of the language and these things that I preach to you guys, but I do want you to understand that the record label is not something that you should cut out. It's something that could be an option depending on the situation you're working on. Right. Independent. You could be independent throughout the test of time and just be maybe where the chance to rapper is probably going to go. I don't think he's ever going to really end up in a super traditional situation, but you could be somebody that starts off with a record label then becomes independent. Or you could be independent, record label, independent. Whatever works out for you, but that core thing that Serge said that you had to hold on to is make sure you have your team right. So whichever situation that you're navigating, you're able to make the most out of that situation and maximize the returns. So once again, guys, that's a real great session with Serge Love. Gotta have this guy back as much as possible, but you really could just go to his page so don't ask me too much to bring him back because he has so much and so many things he has out there for you great resources already. This time, is there anything you want them to keep in mind? Yeah, definitely check me out, www.phasevi.com on the website. Go and subscribe to the channel. Check out all the information that I have for you. I talk about a lot of these different topics. The whole video, two videos on major versus independent kind of giving you pros and cons of doing the same thing. And I would end it by saying I do agree with you. And you did a great video on Chance the Rapper that I love. And I'll tell you this, a key thought process before you decide to go major independent, I think about 360 deals is investment and understanding the money that you had. Chance the Rapper, to my understanding, he had some type of financial benefit up front that was able to front a lot of those costs. And so if you have that, the record label is basically a bank. And if you don't need a bank to get started, then you can take his great advice on how to market yourself and you can get out there and start winning in this space. And you may not have to take that deal. However, for those that are hustling and making things happen, putting the pieces together and you don't have the funding, it may be an option to go see. For sure. So once again, that's another session. Follow phase six. And then brand man, Sean, you know what to do. Hit that subscribe button.


passive marketing, social media here, social media there. You know, I'll try to do some PR type things myself. Keep watching to find out what book we're talking about today. My name is Kyla Denonio. Today we are talking about a really fun marketing book and that is attention. This book will make you money. The author of the book is Jim Kukro. The genre of the book is nonfiction. The theme of the book is marketing business. Okay, jump right in because there were so many things that I loved about this book. So let's get into my favorite quote from the book and that quote is this. Inventors make the item, marketers make it fun and make you pay attention. Let go of your ego and create. So attention, attention, attention, this book will make you money. You gotta have the thing that people can buy once it makes you money. Okay, and that gets us into two of my favorite things that I learned which are really important about the fact that you have to let go of the ego and just create. The first thing is make it easy for people to buy from you. Okay, and the second thing is the difference between publicity and attention. So let's get into those. So the reason why it's so important that you let go of your ego and create. I see this online all the time especially on the apps that have the short form content. They're all about like make a video.  Make the video, make the video, make the video. Yes and okay, and that's what this book teaches you. The and. Yes, you make the video, you get the attention, get someone watching you for eight seconds. What's your call to action? What's the thing that you're selling? Where's the website? It's one thing to get the attention. If there's nothing there when they click on it, what's the point? Just to follow you and then you don't talk about it again. It's got to be more than that. Okay, so the attention can make you money but you have to have things set up as well. Right, so that was so so so important. And that ties into attention versus publicity. Publicity occurs if you're famous but anyone can get attention. Okay, if I'm out having lunch at a restaurant, the news is not going to follow me and say, wow, look at Kyla Delano. Oh, she had a steak. Oh, she didn't drink.  Nobody's watching me. Okay, but attention that can be good or bad. Right, let's say I'm at a restaurant. I end up throwing things all around the place. Well, now I have everyone's attention but that's probably a bad thing. Let's say I'm at a restaurant and it's one of the best meals I ever had. I do a video review about it. Well, now I have their attention, now people are going to the restaurant. Okay, so it's really important to know the difference between publicity and attention. Well, I'm learning all about how attention can make you money and for me how I can get more podcasts. Let me just say while you're here, subscribe to the channel. I talk about non-fiction books. I talk about fiction books. I talk about all the things. Okay, so go on and subscribe to the channel. I picked it up because I'm trying to market my podcast even more than before. What I've been doing for the last three years has been passive marketing, social media here, social media there. You know, I'll try to do some PR type things myself. You know, I'm getting on Helper Reporter out trying to mention it but I'm trying to get into like active marketing. Okay, one of my favorite things there's an entire section called make it easy for people to buy from you. That's really important because I get a lot of people who reach out to me and want to be a podcast guest on You Are Lawyer. I think it's easy for you to find my email address. You just have to click about and then it's right there on the page. And while that works, I've actually since changed the website so that you get to the website, you get my header and then immediately says refer yourself to be a guest. Boom, putting your email address. Okay, so we're just making it really easy and buying for me is making yourself be a guest, right? Offering to tell your story on the podcast. So I'm gonna make it easy. Make it way easier for them, okay? This book was really good at teaching me the difference between attention and publicity. Okay, attention will make you money. Publicity just has people talking about you. Now that could turn into money in the future but it's a really long form way, right? But it's a very passive way. Now, typically, you know, in the fiction reviews, it could be yes or no with the reread the books. The marketing books have been leaning towards yes. I think they they're winning with the reread because they're instructional, right? So it's a little bit different. I am actively learning something which would make me want to revisit the book and reread it. And this one definitely a winner. Winner, winner, winner. Absolutely, I would reread this book. Absolutely. Let me know. Are you interested in marketing books? Do you want to make money? Give attention. This book will make you money, okay? So I will see you next time on Kyla's Reading Day.


Welcome to JSA TV and JSA podcast, the newsroom for data center and telecom professionals. I'm Jamie Scott of JSA here at virtual PTC 21 joining me today is Mr Eric contact he is the chairman of globe net and of course president of suboptic. Aloha Eric, happy new year. Jamie, thanks for having me. It's an honor as always. I know you're a returning guest, one of our favorites here at JSA TV. And today's a very big day.  Absolutely Jamie and thanks again for having me here. Suboptic is the industry association for the global submarine cable system industry. And we are a trade association that is over 30 years old where we've been holding a triennial conference where we openly have shared ideas and technologies and directions of, let's say the subsea industry. About a year and a half ago or so we changed the format to truly establish suboptic as an independent trade association that represents the industry. We were founded on the belief that we should openly share ideas and address issues in a neutral forum representing the ecosystem of the global submarine communications industry. And our goal as a public is to be the voice of the industry, promoting innovation sustainability and and what it else is necessary to support the global communications fabric. So, we truly believe in openness transparency, being inclusive, independent, fostering diversity, and then building communities, and it's along these axes that we have actually worked in, let's say developing our most important pillars from an association perspective. So, we're looking at things as awareness, the critical importance of the submarine cable industry and that global communications fabric sustainability, and the fact that that the world needs to come together and one of the things that is critical for us as well is human capital, how are you going to develop a new human capital, how are you going to track the human capital to our industry, and something that we have similarly seen in in sister industries. The fact that it's been difficult for us to bring in new people to replace, let's say the aging population of experts. And for 20 plus years and one day I think we're going to retire maybe eventually, and who's there to replace us certainly the, the people capital top of mind and very important these days. You also have some very important breaking news on this virtual floor here at PTC. Can you tell us what's what's the major headline. Absolutely. Jamie. So let me take you back to suboptic 2019 in New Orleans. We had a series of roundtable discussions and we were talking exactly about the subject of human capital and how do we collaborate and how to make our industry more sustainable. And the idea basically of creating an organization that would allow us to focus mainly on, let's say education and research started to take root. And we are very, very proud to announce that the suboptic association launched on January 18 the suboptic foundation. It's a charitable organization that is being built to focus on education and and on research. And this is not something that is new for suboptic I mean throughout the years, we've always had master classes and other sorts of educational programs that are in conferences. And in 2019, we also supported the subsist summer school we had over 85 participants from around the world, which was then followed up by a meaning meet this last summer. And this year in 2021, we're going to have the next hopefully live suboptic summer school. But what makes the foundation different is that as a charitable organization that has legal entities in the United States and in the UK initially, is that we're going to be able to access a research grants endowments. So people can donate to the foundation companies can contribute or match their funds, so that we can actually develop these programs that are absolutely critical to our industry. So I'm very proud with the announcement of the suboptic foundation. So, and we are so honored about this is huge news we're so excited here at SA TV to break this news. So for the broader telecom industry, tell us the primary benefits of this foundation. Well, first and foremost, one of the things that that we have seen around the educational side is that we didn't really have, let's say a curriculum and a program established for the subsea industry. So by supporting the summer school in partnership with Google and the optical society of American Foundation. We've created now really a structure for having masters level and PhD level people look at the new technologies understand the industry and try to make it attractive, let's say to to those experts to come in so that's the next generation of people but we want to take it a lot further than that. In a study done by ICT a couple years ago. They started to look at, why is it for example that that more women are not attracted, let's say to these technical fields. They realize that the STEM programs and STEM type of education needs to start much earlier than high school we need to go even to middle school or before. And for that we need to create programs around awareness around the importance of having solid robust digital infrastructure, not only in the subsea space but let's say in the communications and data center industry so the true benefit is that we're going to be able to have programs, awareness programs, educational programs, tutorials that are going to allow us to attract let's say the our generation of successors into the industry. So that's on the educational side of things. The other thing that that we announced that we're very, very proud of associated with the foundation is that we have received a grant from the Internet Society Foundation, and Nicole Straszłowiecki from NYU and her team and the global group are going to be looking at the greening of the subsea industry the greening of let's say cable landing stations and so on, to make a world that much more sustainable. So that is just the beginning of many of such programs that that we intend to approach around the aspects of sustainability of our industry. Amazing. We definitely need this yesterday. And I'm so much more hopeful for the future just based off of this conversation so sign us up we're here to help, of course, every time for you Eric. Thank you so very much Jamie and you know one of the things along these lines of building a community that we're working on a suboptic itself at the beginning of actually at the end of last year, launched our new community platform linked and type system and so I would like to invite all our members and future members to join us there and to continue the conversation around these topics that are so absolutely critical, let's say for our global communications fabric. Yeah, absolutely so for our viewers who want to learn more and get more involved, LinkedIn suboptic LinkedIn group is that it. It's actually, if you visit suboptic.org, it takes us to our community platform, and they're going to be able to see the different areas that we're focused on the presence of our working groups and information regarding the type of things that suboptic is involved in. Perfect suboptic.org. Eric, as always, it's such an honor. Thank you so much for joining us. And thank you viewers for tuning in to JSA TV and JSA podcasts. Mahalo. Mahalo Jamie. Mahalo.


Hello everyone welcome to the straight talk from our show. My name is Bruce Wilson the executive director of service render incorporated and Straight talk from on is one of our programs that we have with them among many programs we have with on the service render Incorporated and straight talk just happened to be one of our cable shows You know, we it's basically being straight with yourself and talking to the community members of the community and About what's good, you know information up to they might want to share to people to our audience and important stuff So today I'm here with boy Yang who is also who is the Human Rights Commission Commission Executive director how important is that man? That's an important job. So let's just get started for so first of all I don't know if he was born and raises in here in Vermont, but many people when I look at me say they say Bruce You know, what were you what brought you to Vermont? So were you born born in Vermont? No, I was born in Laos And my family came here in 1980 as refugees my dad had fought in the war in Vietnam and so had assisted the United States in that war and when that war was lost Our family amongst a lot of our people were really abandoned to there And so we had to do this trek across the country and across the river and to tie refugee camps And then we're finally sponsored to come here So that's sort of like the early years of my life And we actually settled in Chicago For a couple years and then we moved to Wisconsin and I pretty much grew up in Minneapolis and That's where I Probably would call my home away from home I'm I kind of think of myself as someone who has many homes and so and many identities to in that sense and so Yeah, so I grew up in Minneapolis and about Six years ago 2015 I met my husband there We had our kids there and he had gone to college out here and wanted to come back to Vermont Just because of how beautiful it was and I was at that point in my career where it made sense to try to do something new and different and so I Was really in for a change. I suppose and boy did I get it.   Why can't I come from Chicago to Vermont, whatever, but also live in our Minneapolis, you know And they got that little model of ten over ten thousand like I'm like Yeah, I really know over ten thousand legs. I think it's more. Yeah, that's what somebody else told me Yeah, I just can't I just can't see it.  I stay I lived there for like three years and I'm going Valley But yeah, I don't know.   Yeah, so the the job is one where I wear many hats Obviously the most obvious is I'm the head of the agency and so the appointing authority So in addition to all the budgeting and administrative work and all and stuff I supervise and the investigations and the investigators who are staff attorneys who are really Investigating the claims of discrimination in the three primary areas, which is housing state government employment and places of public accommodations And I would say that that's probably one of the most important things that we do is enforcement of the anti-discrimination laws in those three areas and A lot of people don't know what places of public accommodations mean But that really means every place that provides goods and services to the general public. Yeah, so that means schools hospitals roads even prison systems and So that it's huge like area. That's almost everything if you think about it except for maybe people's homes, but even we have jurisdiction over housing housing discrimination and so Enforcement is a huge piece and supervising investigating those those investigations I do a fair amount of public education and outreach to along with our director of policy education outreach and During the legislative session. I testified before the legislature in support sometimes and sometimes against or critical Various bills that might come up. Yeah. Wow, so We talked earlier about this, you know Karen Richards your predecessor, right? It was came out to our We actually come to a event at UVM at the day the Senate who is called know your rights And so many students came there to hear she did a PowerPoint presentation and it's about all the things You just said housing and do you think about voting to you do voting? We don't do it We could that could potentially fall within our jurisdiction, but not typically. Yeah and so many in many of you and who was that attended it from UVM Learned a lot and I did too because man, you know anything was like know your rights So we I thought I didn't really know my rights either until she did that presentation talk to us about it So so I just want to you know, thank you Human Rights Commission for For being you know being there to help us get educated you Yeah, and it also like me, you know, so um, where's the anti Discrimination laws, what is what is that? What are they? Yeah? Yeah, so these are the laws that We have state anti-discrimination laws and federal anti-discrimination laws that basically Congress and our legislature here has put into place That says discrimination is prohibited Here's the shape and form that it takes and these are the places where we're not going to permit it, right? So basically you can discriminate however you want within your home Privately who your friends are but for the most part we believe that as a society that is just and moral that there should be no Discrimination and so people's rights to access housing should be free from discrimination and people's rights to access employment should be free from discrimination and People's right to get go to the grocery store or go to a hospital to get services These are all places that we believe should be available and open to everybody Regardless of the race color gender gender identity sexual orientation Disability and so forth and so the anti-discrimination laws pretty much are the laws in place that prohibits Discrimination in all of these areas that are meaningful to our lives so When when you say you help with I guess you help with the policy work, too So how do you how do you help with our policy work? so As you probably know Bruce lots of bills are introduced every year and some of those bills a lot of those bills are probably a very important not every bill is taken up, but The work that I do really is to support the legislature in Clarifying how those bills would have an impact on people of in Vermont particularly people of color people with disabilities lgbtq people Anybody that really would fall within our jurisdiction and so there are many bills like that one of those bills is H3 29 which is a bill that has been introduced that really seeks to change those anti-discrimination laws that I've talked about Yeah, and Is it okay if I explain it a little bit That's one of the things I want to talk to you. Yeah. Yeah, so H3 29 is a bill that does two really important things The first one is the easier part to understand right now when someone has experienced Discrimination they can file a lawsuit under our current state laws within three years or six years depending on their loss Meaning the damage and the harm that it has caused to them most people don't understand Do I have three or six this law changes it so that everybody would have six? It would be a very clear standard That's the easier part to understand about the bill the other part about the bill that is really important Is that it actually seeks to change? the Harassment standard under all of those areas that I talked about and so what is harassment harassment is like a hostile environment That someone Experiences because of their race or gender or gender identity or sexual orientation right now. There is a gap between what we find Morally repugnant and what the courts find Actionable meaning what the courts find would be a legal wrong and so I'll give you an example, right? So is it okay if I use you Bruce as an example? Let's say Bruce you apply for a job and You you're excited. You're ready to start this job And you get in and on the very first day one of your colleagues makes the jokes with you and uses a racial epithet Very wrong very wrong. It makes you so uncomfortable You I don't know how you feel but when when other people experience discrimination It makes me angry when I feel when I've experienced discrimination It saddens me it demoralizes me. It hurts me greatly I think that I would probably go home and like question did I do the right thing? Did I take the right job? Why did this person do this? Was that a joke? Am I being overly sensitive? These are the things that people have colored say to ourselves Yeah, probably even more right and then Let's say nothing happens in a couple months later your boss uses a racial epithet Okay, now that's two months in between these two racial epithet but now you've got these two incidents that have a real serious like impact on your ability to do your job your ability to get up in the morning and like feel good and prepare to do that work and to go to work every day and Then maybe six months later You know people are listening to certain types of music and they're repeating that music at work And then now they're using like let's those racial epithets that are used and they think it's okay to do that And now you've heard it three times you file a lot like you no longer feel comfortable working here Totally morally repugnant most of us would say that is not okay.  You didn't lose your job. You quit and also is this really hostile, right? So the court uses this standard called severe or pervasive. It has to be so severe and Usually like a verbal racial epithet by itself like the n-word. What about that, right exactly? I don't mean nothing, right? Well, I mean it means a lot to all of us it means a lot to society too, but to courts It doesn't necessarily they say you should be able to sort of brush that off and so The standard right now is something has to be so severe They've interpreted it to be so severe or it has to be so pervasive It has to happen so often so frequently and yet they don't set a standard for how often it has to happen this bill seeks to change that and to close the gap between what offends us as a people and What the court has has set as the standard it says no This is the legislature taking a position that what the court has done And what the standard that the court has set for harassment claims needs to change to reflect what really is morally repugnant and this bill would change that standard and Broaden the scope for people to be able to file those claims of discrimination in where we live in employment and at schools and in places of public accommodations all those places that I talked about so this is probably the most important bill in my work of this time and I Think that if our legislature is bold enough that it could get it done and so so what so what does it mean when you say You know this H3 29 is like a finding is the prohibition against discrimination I mean, what does that mean prohibition against discrimination? Yeah, well, it's probably everything you said, but there were prohibition I guess out I'm in with against discrimination can that's what's got me Yeah, yeah so the the bill itself is called an act that seeks to change the prohibitions against discrimination and all that really means is That this is a bill that is going to change the way that we look at our anti-discrimination laws. That's it. Yeah, so so Talk to me a little bit about a explicit bias trainings that that you I think I'm a state of State employees might might have went through with yeah. Yeah, so we do a lot of different types of trainings Implicit bias trainings is one of the types of trainings that we do plus Trainings around microaggressions and bystander intervention We also do trainings around Harassment hostile work that what I just talked about harassment in the workplace both sexual harassment and racial harassment We do trainings around harassment bullying and hazing in schools We do her trainings around housing discrimination and what the fair housing laws are as well. Okay, so So What is up to you this in well first of all through the H3, you know all the things you just talked about through H3 2 9 In some cases. Do you have a lot of cases around? You know, you know, I don't you know Yes, I'm actually do you have a lot of cases that you're working on through discriminations and Individuals who might have worked in their jobs and and quit because somebody might have this Disrespect, you know, yeah Yeah, do you have cases like that? Yeah, we get close to about we're processing up close to like 70 cases a year of discrimination Yeah, and they're across all protected categories and stuff This year has been kind of a funny year because of COVID-19 But prior to that our numbers have been pretty steady. Yeah, so You know, I don't this is probably what something you I don't know if you include it with your objectives but you know You know with the black lives matter and all this in with Floyd, you know death of Floyd and Discriminations around the country So what do you know and so everybody's are hard hiring Equity and inclusion directors not so this is just what do equity and inclusion means to you Yeah, yeah, I mean we both have color here, you know, right? So I'm in Maybe I can I'll answer that question to you. It means to me. But what does it mean to you? Yeah well That's that's a great question because it means a lot of different things to me But it also means different things to different people. I would say that And then I want to respond to the way that we are responding to what happened after George Floyd was murdered too and Hiring different equity and inclusion Directors, but before I do that I just want to say that equity and inclusion in the broadest sense is really about peoples of each individual's ability to truly fulfill their life's calling Regardless of their skin color regardless of their gender orientation Gender identity regardless of their disability and that the ability to sort of fulfill that calling and that promise upon their life Without anybody else saying that they can't do that and that to me is truly equity and inclusion So thinking about like how do we ensure that every person that is born is able to reach their potential is like fairness in school equity and inclusion inclusive like curriculum in schools, but also That a kid who's poor doesn't go to a school that is different from a kid who's rich, right? And equity inclusion also means that when I apply for housing that you don't ask me for additional Documentation than anybody else because you look at me and you think I don't know if I can trust this person to pay the rent Right, that's what equity inclusion means equity inclusion means also that you don't pretend that your housing is not available because you're afraid of Of me or you're afraid of the way that I look Or that I won't take care of your property and equity and inclusion means when I apply for a job that I have the same fair chance for that But it also means like it's not just that simple too. It's also really about The availability of affordable like where is the affordable housing? Do we have that equity inclusion is also about like Do I really have school choice? Right, this isn't just about oh you can go to the school that's located in your neighborhood This is about like if that's not working for me Do I have the same choices as anybody else to go to any other school as well? and Do I go to school and and come out with huge debt? Right so that when even though I'm applying for the job and you're saying you're giving me the same chance The salary that you're paying me isn't enough to pay for that and to make up for years of poverty that I've lived in So equity inclusion is looking at all of those things together now The murder of George Floyd and like I told you earlier I was I Called Minneapolis my home, right? So I like George Floyd was murdered like blocks from where I grew up and where my family still lives And it was an incredibly trying time this year not only because of COVID but because of all the protests and the uprisings that were happening in my neighborhood and Wanting to support that and also seeing this beautiful neighborhood Like go up in flames and sort of all the conflict that you feel when you're seeing all of this and it's both sad and beautiful and like amazing in different ways But sometimes our response to that is superficial our response is let's hire one person To handle this work and the reality is is that it is not the job of any one person certainly Yes, it is everybody's job on On the other hand when it's everybody's job sometimes it's a nobody's job So I love that we are hiring people so that that person is at least charged with gathering people to do this work But I want to talk a little bit about people of color doing this work too, right? Because that's the person of color who heads this agency and I'm the first person of color Awesome. Yeah in the last third like this agents. Yeah, it has been here for 30 years And I'm the first person of color. It's a great burden to Do this work as a person of color too because when you go out there you talked about Karen doing this know your rights training, right? I Would imagine and I love Karen. She's amazing in every way But when I go out there and I do this training and there are people that question Like oh, is it that bad though? You know is discrimination really that bad aren't we just being overly sensitive? Isn't it such a big deal? I imagine that when my predecessors heard that it doesn't have an impact on their personal lives when I hear that I do feel Hurt and harmed by those comments, but I'm also in I'm wearing the hat of educator You gotta be you gotta be you you have to have really thick skin. Yes. You have to stay focused. Yes so I understand you know because It's tough. I understand like somebody talked to me and it looks like me and say that they use words of racism This was happening something. It was a racial. Yeah, I right then automatically I get all warm Fiddle I get all warm. I feel hurt. I mean it didn't happen to me But I understand how you feel and nobody who I know is gonna use word racism if you don't mean if they Don't feel it and mean it. You know me and so so that brings me back to Work still on equity inclusion is that um, you know, I'm a little I'm kind of I'm kind of open, you know, I'm kind of still open on about it because like you said means many things You know and I'm and so for that, you know equity inclusion, you know, okay Thank thank God on high power or whoever it is that um, well, we're hiring equity inclusion Diversity directors and people who teaching cultural competencies and trainings think thanks to whoever doing that But the thing is Now I know it should the cultural competency person directly be a personal color and and nothing and if Well, is it all about cultural competencies all about?  Inclusive and then the people who are trained or doing it She's like I said, should they be a person of color because if you came like I was talking about somebody using like you said to me Bruce racism, I'm I'm like Let's go. We might have to go on down on the block some back on the back on In Hennepin County in Minneapolis and kiss on my peeps together I mean because that don't feel good and it comes from the feeling of like for me 400 years of slavery and more You know I'm saying it comes to where I learned civil rights movement and all these things so all those feelings come in my own Things that happen to me. You know me personally stuff that all comes like that And if you're not if you can't feel none of those things, how can you direct our equity inclusion program? How can you even do it? I know some white people are doing. I'm not saying that they I don't know their Curriculum and those are genders are but I don't know and they teach in the school district. I'm thinking but you know, I Don't know what they teach. I got my axe. I'm gonna be sitting in some of those classes to see Yeah, that's some of some advisory boards around there, but so if it's all about People of color equity inclusion You really need to get the training first. You know, how can you really? How can you help? People of color if you don't even can't feel it You got it so you need and then you get your equity inclusion training from somebody Who's a white whatever so just like and I sit on a but I say police fair and partial policing, right? And so, you know, I was I did the tour different stations, you know And my goal wasn't the tax and my fair and partial police. It was like how do you work with the community? So I did these ride-alongs but what what I did go on one police station with the chief or chief And I was talking to me took me to the detective bureau and I just kind of felt funny, and I mean, you know, kind of weird I mean that don't what does that mean, right? And so I just asked him say yo, did you take the fair and partial police training, you know, you know And he said yeah, I said, oh, that's great. How long did it take you? He said about an hour That's about an hour. He said yeah, we did it online You do the fair partial police only line. Oh, no, and most affected people a lot of affected people around police Work is people who look like me and you didn't you didn't have no party company to role play You didn't come I actually who looked like me talked to you about some of the Causing effect or hurts that that happens around You know fair and partial work that you might discriminate against you know Discriminate gives us what you didn't happen in like you got online and a person who probably created online I don't know probably wasn't your person who looked like me, you know, and so that that bothers me You know, that's that bothers me a lot still, you know, and so that's type the same thing How can you learn something, you know or really get better at anything if you don't really work with the people That's affected, right? And so I guess that's a for me with the inclusion they ever had in the world hired him and I'm thinking like maybe they hired him because They say they got somebody doing the work, you know And I know two white people in this count in this county who's doing is doing the work and I'm like this, you know I'm like wondering how the hell you can you ask me a question, you know all the boards and stuff I said I'm with the anti-racism committee.  They can you know, they get it, you know, they'll get it better, you know Yeah, and so so the equity inclusion part is, you know, it means many things to me now I'm just gonna talk to you a minute about the carbon 19, right?  What did what I think what would happen good about it? And you could you know, I'm just asking this general question And we just can discuss it for a minute is that people had to stay home, right? Couldn't go out to the house had your 14 day here staying house and then they had that law like Stay in your house.  And so But mostly I think people got a chance they looked at TV a lot or listen radio a lot, you know And I think they got a chance to understand the plight of the world, you know They know, oh, yeah, they're looking at this history. I'm discovering. Oh, there's a fall with forage You know, I mean, whatever that but also I'm learning about like Floyd learn about the plight of What black lives matter me learn about other countries and cultures and this is teased that they Didn't know oh the Indians are this oh, does that know, you know that they didn't really know nothing about They get tear times and look at these things and it wasn't no rush to looking because they what else they gonna do They said to listen to it. So I think because of that Convict was just, you know, the worst thing in the world ever but there you got to find what's good about what was it was bad And I think that People want to come out. They want to volunteer more. They want to do more for their neighbor They understood the plight and they they want to help, you know Celebrate a second black lives matter and you know in all kind of different way and they was marching by the thousands Right, you know for a black lives matter and it was more seemed like it was more white people or now Black colored people That was out there. I was like how wonderful was that? so um So I think that what made things a little better, you know, I mean for people who look like us That um people got the understanding of course And then and they got to understand some of the history because they definitely didn't read in our history No, they go right. I know about Columbus history and all those false history stuff You know And they nobody knew about african-american history. They know about You know, what was really amazing about all the uprisings and social media and seeing it this year Was that you're right It it did wake a lot of white people up to not just what black people had been telling them that had been happening for generations But for the first time we saw them getting out there and doing it and they were getting pushed and shoved by the police So it wasn't that they were just reading it and they were like learning about it through their friends But they were actually experiencing some of that violence themselves firsthand for doing nothing but protesting And that to me is important because the way that we really change is not through like These teachings and training that's important, but that's not enough It's through experience and the experience that we take on That are similar to other like marginalized communities people's experience and I want to go back to what you said I don't know how much time we have proofs, but yeah, I want to go back to what you said about Equity and inclusion and education and stuff and this is like a really important point We do enforcement at the hrc and we do education at the hrc And we're working hard to try to change the laws at the hrc But that's not enough like There are some very important things that like we sort of have to To recognize is that there are some basic needs that are not met In various communities and that those needs have to be met. So When i'm fighting for a discrimination free housing in bermaan, it's not enough We have a law that says anybody can go buy anywhere they want to that's not realistic Because not everybody makes the same amount of money not everybody can get this job People are prejudiced against them because of their name before they even get in the door And because of student loans because of poverty because of all of these things They never got into the right schools. They have tons of student loans So like you look at that and they're already so behind So you can put a law in place that says it's sort of like in the 1960s and 70s We passed this law that says oh, by the way, regardless of your race and color, you can now buy anywhere you want. Well Where's the money Where's the money to buy in where anywhere I want like that's not realistic That's not realistic And so like one of the ways that you mitigate housing discrimination in vermont isn't just passing a law This says no more discrimination in vermont and it's not let's teach white landlords not to discriminate That's not enough You need to have more affordable housing in vermont because when there is a More affordable housing and people of color go out there and they look for that housing And they have the competitive edge because they're they don't need to it and someone discriminates against them against them They don't have to take that housing They can go somewhere else and file a complaint against them right now The the housing market is so scarce so low That if I go and apply for housing And that landlord is discriminating against me. Do you think i'm gonna like complain against that law? I need that housing I need that housing for my kid and why that housing is connected to transportation that housing is connected to where I go to school That housing is connected to my kid's school and my job I'm not going to immediately file and even if like I got the housing would I really file right away? No, because I need that housing next year, right? So like we are already at a detriment Right, we have to be looking at equity and inclusion by not just looking at education Because that's what people love to do people go. Let's do a bunch of implicit bias trainings, which I'm all for I'm an educator I'm before that it is not enough. Let's keep enforcing the anti-discrimination laws. That's good too. That is not enough We have to build housing. We have to have inclusive schools Kids cannot live in poverty anymore All of these things have to be happening Simultaneously for there to be true equity and inclusion and then I want to talk a little bit about White people's place in doing this work and people of color's place in doing this work, right on the one hand I do absolutely believe that white people need to teach other white people Right because it's a huge burden on people of color to do this work all the time And like I mentioned earlier like it feels traumatizing sometimes to keep doing teaching and teaching and teaching And people not listening on the one hand I It isn't so much that I look like this and therefore you should choose me But usually this identity is connected to lived experiences. This identity is connected to Typically poverty. This identity is connected to Discrimination this identity is connected to disenfranchisement And this identity is connected to like overcoming barriers those lived experiences are essential To delivering the message in a way that people will get it Like so what like when I teach implicit bias, it isn't this theory I really talk about like this is my experience This is what happened to me when I was walking through this office Someone made an assumption that I wasn't a lawyer but made an assumption that this person who's next to me Who's white was a lawyer. That's what I'm talking about I don't think that White people because of their privilege as white persons in this country Have those experiences to draw from to demonstrate that That doesn't mean that there isn't a place for them to do this work. There is But I think it's also important to recognize where Are our experiences and knowledge base and where does that come from and how do we teach ourselves to And how do we convey that message in a way that is meaningful? Right, how do we engage people about that that is meaningful? So, um Yeah, how do you so how do you think?  Um, so I understand how I'll just go on going to work You know, I mean like how we you know, like if they don't do it the ways that you just described, wherever You know how they can get the corporate competency training and whereas they can train whoever their peers or people at work or the other social services or whatever I know you you work with social services as well, right? Uh, not directly. Yeah so I just you know You know, you know, and I hear a lot of white people, you know Say that um, they really want to help people who look like us. They want they want to do something. They really want to but Personally, I don't want you to do if it's not about the um, um, you know, like Helping out with some funding or programs or for youth and families or whatever Then that's easy to do But if you you know, if you need help to really want to do if you need help to want to do something Social or something like that then you need to talk those don't go out and do it Talk to a person of color first asking what they think they need what they need first. It's like they should do It just can't go on to say and I did this, you know I I took, you know, we did this in the black neighborhood or whatever neighborhood It was a person of color neighborhood and um, but they could use that time for something else If we had if they had to spoke with people like us, you know, I mean because that's that's thing One way that's going to get better is um and You know, this is amazing too. I'm suddenly, you know, we just talking now. It is amazing too.  I'm your search provider as well And um, but the last election with the president's like without trump the things he said and did jump in and um, you know, um You know, when you say about I can grab a woman here.  It wasn't like I didn't mean that It was like right in your face Still like half Americans voted for him. How did how did that happen? I mean, how did that thinking come about? I mean, what was what is they didn't think what how did they put they had to put blinds on I mean, how can you tell your our voting president and the president saying can't understand? I can grab any woman by Anywhere is on the part of the body and that's okay Or you know things he and that there's Things that really I think that women should really should really look at I mean and all the abusive things he's done to women and um People of color, you know, he just he just amassed tons of Negatives, you know, and while he was in office to shut this down don't let those people in just you know close that off, you know All right, but before that, how did he even?  Why did they vote on him? Do you have any answers for that? Yeah, well I mean I I in in some ways this is not the full answer But in some ways I think this is still a very racist and sexist country And have the people vote on them Yeah, absolutely And there's no doubt that some of the people that voted for trump are racist and sexist, right? Let's we're not they're gonna joke about that. I would say all of them because um, right, okay There are people that would say that I would also say that a lot of it is propaganda in that One of the things that um politicians particularly politicians who have a lot of money are able to share this to put out this propaganda Of fear Be afraid of the mexicans be afraid of the blacks be afraid of the asians during covid be afraid of this But don't fear me this rich white billionaire who couldn't care less about you You who is a poor white vermonter nevertheless You should vote for me because you should really be scared of all these other people We spent so much of our time fighting each other Rather than really fighting people like donald trump And that's because they've done a really good job in all of our history And making us point fingers at each other and that is true bruce too not just of poor white people who are fighting us But that's also true of black people and asian americans In this country too is that we sometimes have had a history Where our people have pointed the fingers at each other instead of pointing the finger at Really a system and a group of people particularly rich white people who have put us in these positions Right and so I think if most americans make less than $250,000 a year if most americans got together like We could really change it But instead we spent all this time all this history really fighting each other And I think that's what donald trump was really good at is selling this idea That you should be scared of these mexicans because they're coming here to rape you. That's what he called them And you should be afraid Like you don't want women to have power and that's why we can do whatever we want to them And you should be afraid of black people and etc etc And that sells because it's because it's fear. It's fear induced um So, yeah And fear fear is something that drives a lot of people. Yeah, I know I get it I mean, I get I get what you're saying, but I still kind of like don't get it, you know No, I I mean during days where I'm like, I don't get it either Yeah So, um So, so here's obama, right? He was from chicago not far from out where I was lived in high park. But anyways, um Here's a here's a president who ran for presidents. Yeah They were if I don't know why he even did it. It was the worst time for anybody or as a president three wars We was in a recession And he and he he won but something man you got your hands for you know And so so what did you try to do to revitalize the economy, right and anybody was like, oh, he's you know, um Was to take the money that the a couple of dollars we had in the bank, you know, I mean You know government had the federal government had in the bank and use it to um Build our infrastructure, you know, like do our roads and bridges and get and it's well This will stimulate the system by people getting, you know, having jobs for in me anyway Like in many areas because you need supplies you need how you're gonna make that you need rocks and you need All kind of different things, you know, to build bridges and bridges, you know, and it created a lot of job marketing jobs and you know and um to um Stimulate our system and bring get the money back And I thought that was one of the smartest thing that he could somebody could have thought of You know, I mean just spend the money on our sales man Yeah, you know, I mean investing in Las Vegas or something.  And you know, he's he's spending all the money, you know, he's making I'm like What he calls two of the wars and he had they were already there, you know He calls the recession they everybody was saying these things about a yeah, not to mention that they that he was born in Africa or something something That wasn't even so he you know, he was very Smart, I don't know what he said in this how you talked in the shower with the water running, you know He probably did, you know, Michelle kept him straight too, but um and then but So here's a smart guy then here now um Trump who didn't really want to revitalize because he didn't want to spin out the money I don't know why he how he felt he thought it was his money first of all Thought it was his money, you know our money that we have in the federal government and he didn't really want to spend it But he had to he had to kind of um revitalize the Our states our government, you know by spending money giving money and spending money, right?  You know, uh, what you call it deficit is going to Yeah, nothing zero.    You know, you're the best measurements you have right now. Yeah, uh winning Oh, that's a really great question. Um, and I struggle with that that on a regular basis I just want to say that Like i'm not here for the paycheck or for the title. This is really meaningful work to me personally and It matters to me And I take my job very seriously And I'm going to work really hard for this whatever amount of time that this job Is in front of me to do my best to mitigate discrimination And so the ultimate measurement is always has discrimination been reduced But i'm not like I don't have any false hope that all of that was is within my my agency's Authority like I mentioned, I don't have control over about affordable housing or the employment opportunities I only have jurisdiction over preventing discrimination or Uh prohibiting dis enforcing me enforcing the anti-discrimination laws so, um It is my hope in my time That we will put out some really important cases to demonstrate what discrimination looks like It's my hope that will do a fair amount of education. Um, it's my hope that will pass some really good laws During my time to change it the way that we look at discrimination And while today I only talked about h3 29 There are also some really good bills right now around BIPOC land ownership Around reparations around truth and reconciliation and these are all incredibly meaningful bills to me too Uh to try to see what I can do to get these bills passed during my time as an executive director as well Yeah, well, you know, this is those are great topics, you know, yeah That you're gonna be working on and I appreciate I appreciate that the work you're doing, you know, you know That's so important. You know, I mean you gotta you got a lot you got a lot to do a lot going on, you know Wow, it's a lot, you know, so you really gotta I don't know how you what how you put it in order, you know Day by day. Yeah, if you wake up. Yeah, you just do it again. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and she got a good team I do you got a good team. Yeah, and see you are guys. I say why Yes. Yeah, we cover the whole state of vermont. Yeah central level Yeah, so state of vermont, which is gigantic. Yeah So now let me ask you a question because this so if you I don't I can't name no towns, but The thousand the one horse town in vermont, no Whatever town that could be I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's gotta be something not an episode, you know, in the dairy um Do you get any complaints or um From those these people from from like five thousand. Yes Yes And this would you be more like housing or job or discrimination all of those all of those. Yeah, because I mean we get housing all over the state because We have a lot of single landlords in the state of vermont who don't really know what they're doing or know the laws Right and in vermont people rent through word of mouth and it and the truth is is that most land owners And property owners are still white. So if you're renting through word of mouth, you're mostly renting to other white people um And so we're we're getting those claims all over the state of vermont people who also don't understand the laws around disability And reasonable accommodations and needing to accommodate someone who might be in a wheelchair who needs a ramp, right? So we get that all over the state. It doesn't matter the size school cases come also from all over the state um And uh police cases come from all over the state course Yeah Nobody is immune to discrimination in vermont no matter what town how big or how small it is So I said on this uh committee through the wunuski school district called um anti-racism committee and um working with superintendent the principals youth and you know community members And then they had some six we had well we had nine demands. So we got six now. But anyways, um It'd be nice if like, you know, like know your right type deal It'd be nice if you or can come into one of our meetings at the um wunuski school Yeah, talk to these youth about I would love to oh great Yeah, absolutely. That'd be awesome. Yeah, I really appreciate it. I would love to because as we make decisions on um around um anti-racism because they got like, you know, more people color, you know, different, you know Right rfo, you know, uh resource officers how they should be in school these type of things.  They need to have some real facts to be too They need to have the balance that they I want them to have a real make real good decision Yeah about the um laws we're going to change in their school district. You know before they actually um You know, they need to hear both sides of the coin You know, they need to hear more not in books on the court But more information in both sides coin gets but more information about Before they make the decision So I would love to put it up. We'll talk about I love to put you on the agenda and come in and talk to you Yeah, I would love to do that.   And so I think that's good. Like I'm just gonna tell you what like in um, One hour one one hour black high school teachers resigned And he's the only one and it was he schooled with he resigned and he and he was a racism And he was on our committee, you know So Well, anyway, so, you know, you get how I'm feeling about that. So And so, you know, and I number four demand 40 man is to hire more people of color and here's how it got cut out on us. I mean the high school teachers Right. I think they gave other people coloring like in the middle school in elementary school, but not, you know, not People not like look like me We need to talk about not just hiring more people of color But how do we retain people of color in all of these systems and institutions and in the state of vermont We can bring them in but if they are being harmed while they just start to do the work and start questioning stuff People will just leave One of the things that I know you've been here a long time But one of the things that I struggle with is community, right? Because I'm living like two hours from here and you live here and I may not see you bruce for Months at a time and we we're operating maybe on like doing the same work But isolated here and siloed here and in chicago or minneapolis your community is right there So it's not that discrimination like doesn't happen in minneapolis or chicago Of course it does but your community is right there to back you up here There's like a lack of that kind of community. So if we bring people of color here And you hire only that one person of color and you think your job is done at that school in that little town that you talked about Like that person who is experiencing harm doing this work is then going to Like leave in a year or two And I think we need to be like realistic about Not just hiring but retention as well. That's one of the things we're talking about now in this group So you have anything else you want to add to our show bore? I think we've had a really great discussion I'm honored that you invited me to to to talk today and I'm um You know after all these years, I still feel really excited about doing this work.  I'm gonna work on this policy change or something Right, right. Yeah, you can work on those instead of Feel better and get back to that Right, so that's that's that's so good about it. But um, so we're gonna invite you Um, um to um to this, you know, that's great. I'll tell you about and um, hopefully you'll come back on the show Uh, I really appreciate you, you know, um, I'm gonna be doing an education series here with um CCTV town meetings a couple coming soon. I hope to bring you back and talk about education around You know, whatever the topics that we can come up with. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for coming on the show All right. Have a good day. Thank you. All right


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