Good morning. One of the, my name is Don Canak and I'm the chairman of Prudential Corporation of Asia as the moderator of the panel this morning. It's my pleasure to welcome the audience and of course all my fellow panelists. We've been talking in the last couple of days, many great debates and discussions and ideas in the East Asia Forum around the question of inclusive and sustainable growth. And today, this morning, we're going to open with a discussion of inclusive and sustainable protection. It's my pleasure to introduce briefly the five panelists who will be discussing this topic this morning. And as you will see, they represent a depth of experience and a very wide perspective on this discussion. First, and directly across from me. And for the audience, we'll apologize in advance. It's difficult sometimes to tell from where you're sitting who is speaking, but we'll do our best to move around when we're talking so you'll know who's talking. If you're behind, you can still tell who's talking. Let me start by introducing the deputy prime minister of Cambodia, Mr. Keith Chan, who is deputy prime minister and minister of economy and finance, directly across from me. To the deputy prime minister's left is Mr. Thomas Klotz, the managing partner of Roland Berger strategy consultants. Thomas is based in Singapore. To Thomas's left, Dr. Supachai Panich-Pakthi, who is secretary general of the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development, and he's also a former deputy prime minister of Thailand. Dr. Supachai. To my left, Mr. Matthew Driver, who is president Southeast Asia of MasterCard Worldwide and also based in Singapore. And to Matthew's left, Ms. Jiru Bilamoria, social entrepreneur, managing director of Child and Youth Finance International, which is one of the world's leading movements to ensure financial inclusion and protection for children. The development of inclusive and sustainable social protection systems is not just a subject for East Asia. I think a day, certainly not a week, goes by without a discussion in the West in developed countries about the question of whether the social protection systems that have been put in place there are inclusive enough and whether they are sustainable to provide health care, to provide pension coverage at a time when a society is aging and there's fiscal stress and maintain promises and also reach out to underserved populations is causing great angst in a number of developed countries around the world, as you know. Developing East Asia has an opportunity to learn from examples from its neighbors and from the West as to what can be copied and what should be avoided. And during that process, it's possible, I hope, and I think we all believe, to improve on models, to develop new models that are inclusive and sustainable and to deal with issues such as the inclusion of women, gender equality, and the role of education and financial literacy. We're going to start this morning with each panelist making a brief remark. Five minutes, we'll go around here from each panelist answering the question, what are the key gaps and issues that you see in this area? And perhaps if you can fit it into three minutes, maybe an opportunity area you'd like to discuss. And then we'll open it up to some discussion and we really want the audience to participate. So please be prepared to make comments and remarks and ask questions. Let me start, please, with the Deputy Prime Minister. You could open us up with your thoughts. Thank you. It is a true issue. Indeed, the East Asia is diverse, consisting of advance, middle-income, and low-income economies. Social protection systems in East Asia are complex and diverse, reflecting their different conditions. So I will concentrate on Cambodia, my country. Cambodia's social protection system is a fragmented system. And a fragmented system of informal and formal social protection to enable large numbers of beneficiary access to services, food, income, and micro-loans. It consists of unconnected programs. Public work program and cash transfer can respond well to the seasonal unemployment in consist of food distribution in time of emergency. And the budget has an airmarked budget for disaster relief, school-feeding program and scholarship, food for work program and raising food and security in seasonal employment, shut us, building a road, road, and maintenance of irrigation system. Hill-Igite fund are used to provide health service fee exemption to the population in general, identify as poor. And community-based health insurance and micro-health insurance addressing basic health protection and for the better of population. And training program to develop skills using the special fund of prime minister. And the challenge we face in social and gender-Igite goal is you also. So I just tried to elaborate some key challenge. They are, one, most income, most low income economy has high incidence of poverty and unemployment. One, two, low level of coverage of social protection. Three, the need to balance between employment generation and development of social protection mechanism. And four, high monetization rate among rural women and children as there are a need to change diet and behavior. Given limited resources of program should address the social and gender-Igite, in particular, the program should target women and children who are probably the most vulnerable followed by rural poor and shopless. To address the gap in meeting gender-Igite and social goal, a target cash transfer program, a 45-foot distribution, should be launched. Enhancing productivity calls for focusing both young children on those off-walking age. Suddenly, you know, shows that investing in early childhood nutrition, especially the first 1,000 layers and preschool simulation can be predictor of productivity later in the life. And a continuing agenda can link beneficiary in social protection program to other programs that can activate them into the labor market. However, an efficient and responsive social safety net system should satisfy the following principle. Appropriativeness, meaning the customized program should be respond to the specific needs of the country. Second, adequacy of adequacy, meaning that the system needs to cover all the poor and vulnerable groups. Equitability, meaning that the program should provide equal benefit to people with the same needs. And sustainability should be affordable given current enforceable public revenue. And the last one I may add is adaptability should be able to evolve and remain relevant in face of economic and social change. So I just some idea for the food of self, all of us. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thomas? Yes. I took a bit of a broader view across Southeast Asia, particularly countries like Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines, and Vietnam. And we look at the social protection systems there. They are, of course, still young and in line with roughly the development of the respective countries. But looking at them, we can probably see around five challenges. One has to do with coverage and participation. One has to do with the level of benefits. Of course, the question of financial sustainability that Don already raised. There is probably an issue around inefficient or efficiency of distribution and administration. And maybe the final one is a linkage between handing out benefits and truly achieving social policy goals. So if you look at these five in a bit more detail, of course, across all of these nations, the major social protection systems on pension and health are very much focused on the former labor force. And they are again also even there more on the public employees than the private employees in terms of coverage and service. And that leaves out more than 50% of the labor force. In some countries like Indonesia, you have a voluntary participation opportunity. But again, the whole contribution has to be paid by the person themselves rather than a contribution to the employer, which makes the uptake very, very, very small. And of course, all of these major programs are not really tailored to the cash flow patterns of the informal labor force. And that makes it all very difficult. On the benefit side, because these countries, a lot of the benefits probably are still insufficient, and maybe even below the poverty line. But more importantly, actually, they're not designed to cover inflation. And particularly, the issue of longevity. And sorry, it's an issue because we're going to see a dramatic aging relative to where these societies are today over the next 30 to 40 years. And that will challenge them in the same way as the Western countries have been challenged. And that will lead to the question of financial sustainability. Right now, I think these countries are in a privileged situation. They have economic growth. They have a young workforce. But looking ahead and admittingly looking ahead by a few decades, but still looking ahead, there are questions around some of the defined benefit schemes in the Philippines and Vietnam around universal health care and how that is going to be financed in Thailand and Vietnam for that matter. The fourth point in efficient distribution and administration, of course, the whole challenge of how to bring these services to the rural areas is a major one. I think we're going to talk about that a bit more, a bit later. But also that in many of these countries, programs have been developed over time responding to certain needs. And now you have, like Indonesia, eight institutions running more than 20 of such programs. And you can already see the administrative efficiency that's going to be involved with that and probably overlaps and probably also gaps. And finally, conditional cash transfer, something that, of course, is a very, very controversial topic in the West because of the entitlement attitude. But a country like Brazil, for instance, has a program that links cash transfers to certain conditions around prenatal care about child vaccinations, about school enrollment. And I think it's only fair to say, look, if there is a cash transfer, we want to also achieve certain public sector or public policy objectives that are to the benefit of society overall. And that also, I don't think as much is happening yet here in Southeast Asia. So all of these, I think, financial inclusion to come to that point of our topic will make and can make a significant contribution. It can contribute to including much more of the informal workforce. It can make a contribution in terms of distribution efficiency. It hopefully can design better products tailored to that workforce. But I think when the governments of the various states are thinking about their social protection system, they should keep probably three major principles in mind. One, do not relieve the individual from its responsibility to care for him or herself. Again, I think Western countries have gone much too far in that area. Secondly, use it to achieve certain public sector or social policy objectives. And thirdly, of course, have an eye on the long-term financing. Again, it is easy at this point to design policies that will greatly help in the short term and will be very popular. And I think we're seeing in some other parts of the world how that is becoming a issue a bit later on. Thank you. Thank you. I would like to start from the point of United Nations system. At the moment, if you look at one of the three pillars of the UN system besides human rights security issue, development issue, the three, I think, top most issues on development side would be the green economy, the low carbon development, would be food security, and would be social safety net. Why? Because we've looked at the path of the millennium development goals. You'll remember in 2000, countries around the world agree at the General Assembly September 2000 to set eight millennium development goals. Out of the eight goals, seven goals are social goals, only one economic goals. Partial success, but we're now addressing post-2015 goals, which we agree, meaning the General Assembly agree, that we would call it sustainable development goals. So in a sustainable development goals, it's included inclusive development that includes total elimination of poverty, not to half poverty by 2015. We have already reached the goal of having poverty, global poverty, before 2000, only in 2010. But now, the next aim for the next, I don't know, 10 years, it will be total elimination of poverty. And to be able to achieve inclusive growth and development why? Because growth is becoming something which can be driven by market force, private sectors, international trade. But growth with social protection, with equality, with gender equality, with youth employment and not unemployment, is something which cannot be achieved if one would leave all the things to the market alone. You've seen that the emergence of the subprime subprime market crisis, it was partly explained by the inequality in the United States system, that's why they had to give away a lot of mortgage, subprime basis, very low quality. You are seeing all the springs around the world, not only in Arab spring, you are seeing springs in Asia, in many countries in Asia. And these springs are not going to turn into something which is flourishing, turn into very long hot summers. And many countries, most of them are still caught in the spring. We are helping both Egypt and Tunisia at the UN. I'm working closely with the governments how to turn the spring into something which is going to be a permanent democratic governance movement. We are seeing a lot of protests in front of the Wall Street. You see we are the one billion, we are the 99%. So we have actually analyzed and proved one thing, that growth without social protection, without equality cannot be sustained. Can only be uneven, unpredictable. So this is where we start from. Now the difficulty is that first, we are working with economies around the world, mostly poor economies that are not always preoccupied with the formal sector. In most countries that deal with poverty, there are countries that have at least 50% of the economy involved in the informal sector. How can you deal with the poverty, social protection in the informal sector? They don't even register themselves. I deal with countries in transition, in Eastern Europe. They call it transition economies. I don't call them informal economy. They call themselves shadow economy. Many of central Asian economy, they have shadow economy 50%. So social protection is not a matter of only poor countries, but of countries that have to cope with formal and informal sector. Secondly, it is difficult because social policies lend itself very much to the sort of populist populism policies. You would see that on the verge of any election, you would see people coming out. We love all of you. We love you. You have to work for us. We give away everything. So social protection is sort of fly-by-night, populism-based kind of policies. It's not sustainable. The third one is that there must be the kind of sustainability criteria that are not always met. And I will go through three or four of them quickly. The first one, you have already mentioned, Mr. Klotz, this is the financial sustainability. And most of the time, politicians love to talk about social protection, social safety net. We talked about it at the UN because it is worth winning things without even thinking of where they have to find the resources to sustain the programs. Give away cash transfer. You ask any politician, they all agree with you. But we have done studies in most countries that have sustainable social safety net programs. At least the government revenue should amount to something like 20% of the GDP. You go around in Asia, most of the average chair of government revenue is around 10, 12, 15% at the most. To reach 20%, let alone in a Scandinavian model, they have 30, 40%, which is too high. And of course, that's another problem. So fiscal sustainability means also the adequacy of financing and also to prevent the kind of falling over the cliff like what happens in the Western world that you have become so indebted that you are not really doing social security. You are making people work harder because in Europe, the only way they can treat excessive indebtedness in the social welfare area is to let people work longer. So retirement age used to be 60, 62, now 64, 65, now close to 70 is in many countries. I'm sure that in the next couple of decades, people will have to work until they are 80 years old because people are getting older. So this is the first thing. We talked about social protection. You have to be sure that you are really protecting them and not protecting them and then turn away and tax them later. And of course, you talked also about demographic, dividend or deficit. Aging societies, they have to find a way to pay for them and so the younger generation have to bear the burden. So you have to be careful. Second point, sorry, quickly. To make it sustainable, no free lunch, not even for poor people. Don't give them the wrong perception. That must be conditioned. Most are familiar in Brazil. Family get cash transfer.  Once a year, the child health must be checked. In India, they have employment guarantee program. In ADB, some of their major investment projects, they ask you to guarantee employment of gender equality women. The third one, when you do social protection on a modernized basis, don't destroy the traditional basis. In Asia, we have natural social protection. The churches, the temples, the extended family system, taking care of old ages. We tend to destroy all this when we move ahead. And the last point I want to make is international community. International community has to be consistent, coherent in a way. They practice, give away with one hand, take away with another one. There's no way to do social protection. And social protection at the international level, when we start to do this exercise in SDGs, sustainable development goals, I hope that we would correct the past MDG goal which was so tilted towards only social investment without adequate economic capacity building. So you end up having countries opening up their palms of the hand, asking for donations after donations. In the next couple of decades, there will be no more donations. They have to depend on themselves. So the balance between finding ways to have your own revenue to be able to support yourself is crucial. And that must be a coherent policy at the international level. Thank you. Thank you. Matthew? Thank you. Good morning. Good morning. What I'd like to do is to cover off, I guess, from a payments platform perspective. Why is it because payments have a key role, particularly prepaid and stored value, in driving inclusive growth? Studies have shown that economies that really adopt payments grow faster at higher levels of fiscal efficiency and obviously have lower distribution costs, which is a critical aspect of accessing and serving the most vulnerable communities around the world. The biggest enemy that we see is really cash. Cash costs and is the enemy of inclusion for a couple of reasons. One, it's financially expensive for any economy. Between 0.5% and 1.5% of GDP, just to print secure, distribute cash. But more significantly, perhaps, is the social cost of cash because it facilitates corruption. It is illegal activity, tax avoidance, various other components that drive inefficiency. And that's estimated at something like $16 trillion around the world. So it's a huge issue. So the challenge is how do we really drive the efficiency with electronic payments? And we see a number of gaps that are related to existing programs that are around the world. So what I'll do is I'll sort of cover off the gaps that we see and then talk about some implementation points. Firstly, the one big piece is coordination of policy. Mobile is going to be a really key aspect of this. And even in Myanmar, just recently, just even yesterday, the banking session, a lot of discussion around the intersection of mobile and banking. And it's really critically important that you have the integration and the design of a system that ensures that both mobile banking or mobile services and banking, ICT, are integrated. So you're able to leverage that. That's a critical piece. Another gap is what I call closed-loop programs. So even today, where you do have mobile systems or they tend to be closed within the environment of a single provider, and that creates a challenge because you need to have the interoperability. If you're going to go from one side or one provider to another, the key is driving the interoperability that comes with that. And I think that particularly is a challenge. Fragmentation is another point that's been made early. Again, mobile is a great solution for that. So for me, the main message is driving interoperability and really focusing on getting cash out of the system. In terms of keys for implementing this, I think there are a number of things that are important. One is driving the right kind of infrastructure development. You need the efficiency and the structure and the core infrastructure in place. And that's going to be a critical, important perspective here in Myanmar, just going through the mobile licenses now. And it's a great recognition and aspiration and hope that that's going to make a huge difference. Secondly, to the point I made earlier, developing a regulatory framework that makes sense. Coordinated regulation, but not regulation that really restricts the ability. So you need to balance the elegant design. I think a point was made in our earlier session. But at the same time, you're facilitating open competition and encouraging interoperability. Third is trying to avoid situations where you're creating a very domestic system. You're seeing a lot of fragmentation. So to the extent to which you can leverage an international standard, take the efficiencies from an international standard from other markets and drive those core things across. A system is going to be very important rather than building an idiosyncratic localized platform. That doesn't mean you can't be customized or adapt to a local environment. But you want to use the international systems that are proven to be secure and so to that extent you're developing trust with these groups of people because you're able to deliver secure, safe, efficient, simple, smart services. I guess the other piece around this is community engagement, education, how you're working with those people. Critically important aspect, they have to be feel secure and safe. And I think the other real important point is really around building networks and the public-private kind of partnerships related to working with NGOs. NGOs have a really critical role. How do we ensure that NGOs are brought into the system? And that's critically important. Thank you. A great transition to Jiru. Thank you. So child and youth finance, we work globally and I've seen different things of course across different geographies. But there's one thread which I've seen which runs across all is if we want to have a good social protection system, we actually need to start very young. You need to start with A, educating the children in the school systems on all issues related to both financial inclusion related to and related to social protection. If you ask a child, even a teenager or an 18-year-old, they're not thinking about insurances. They're not really thinking about pensions. They're not thinking about how the future is going to pan out or they're not thinking about what is their responsibility for senior citizens. So I think there's a big gap which is there between those who have to technically build a social protection system, the young people by contributing in, and the older people. So as a social entrepreneur, I'm saying what are the solutions? How can we take across an inclusive society which is A, looking after all people, so what you said no poverty, B, a society which is sustainable because currently even the structures in Europe, we are finding they're not sustainable. So as the entrepreneur, I'd say there are four solutions which we can look at which some of them have been touched upon. I think my first one is a very simple solution. Start young, start teaching children about money, but please don't make it only about money. Include social values, citizenship education when you talk about it. So I say when you're talking about children to save, don't just talk about saving money, talk about saving light, water, electricity. So it's a very inclusive way of looking at financial education. So to me that is the first thing. Second thing is we have graduation from children in schools, but why not make them graduate with a savings account? Or it can be a pre-cape card because that's much easier, but the concept of ownership with something, so children are already entering in a very protected way the financial system. So then you start with a savings account, you link as they go into their teenage years the concept of insurance. So you have through the education system a gradual transition into the financial system which is very, very sustainable. So I think that's one thing. That's the second recommendation which we have found really works. And the third recommendation, I always talk in Pillars of Three, the third recommendation is when children or enter either the job market or the entrepreneurship market. They start their own businesses. What is it that they need to have to be sustainable? And when you're 18, you're more interested in partying than thinking about what's gonna happen 50 years down. But at the same time sort of building that in into the workplace for new entrants so that they know both what is important for themselves but also their responsibility for future generations. So I think if you have to look at social protection and inclusion, you have to do it in a very systematic way starting young and then hopefully 50 years down you won't be needing this because we would have gradually transitioned all systems. And I think East Asia in particular, it's very useful because you all are developing, the region is developing its protection systems. So it can really learn from it in a systematic way and leap from. And that's what I think is the wonderful thing about having this now. So thank you. Thank you. Well, this is a great introduction. I think the audience also can appreciate the diversity of perspectives here and also just how complicated these issues are and that as governments tend to be organized in silos but these issues of aging, the issue of social protection really cuts across various ministries in a government. So the question of coordination, I think is one that kind of jumps out. Another one that jumps out to me from this discussion is I will call it the issue of informal versus formal. Okay, and as governments are trying to create more formal systems, the risk that comes to the destruction or the undermining of the informal system. And I'm just wondering to get some perspectives and maybe your experiences as a panel of, do you see good examples and solutions in certain places where governments are formally supporting the informal systems or is the very nature of rule of law and protection of equal rights in a sense become take the values and the informal system out of play that supporting a temple in a local area as a man may have a way of dealing with social protection might in fact infringe on the question of religious liberty. How do you see those issues being balanced and where do you see good examples of success in that area? Maybe I'll start first with Dr. Superchart. There are a few things. First, governments should not be trying to formalize the informal sector.  It's created by your own brains, writers, songwriters, singers, entertainments. These are people working mostly in the informal system. This is the upper layer because the lower layer, the really poor people, the vendors. But these are the people with whom we've been working with and with whom we've been trying to introduce some way of giving them certain protection. You see, so it's not telling them to register themselves with the government, but we go in and we talk to the people, the associations, see how we can channel government policies in terms of giving them the same kind of treatment for old age, for protection against unemployment and things like this is one area. This is more or less what I call the upper layer of informal sector. Another one is like what Jadu just said. It's about teaching children how to be parsimonious and things like that. I would like to cite the things that our own His Majesty the King has been actually advocating in the last, I don't know, 30, 50 years, which is called sufficiency economic. Sufficiency economic. It's not self-sufficiency. It's sufficiency economic. It means moderation with everything you do. So this is the kind of thing that if you introduce this into the informal sector, particularly in cases of a country predominated by farming sectors, you can have farmers trying to do things. They can fish, they can plant some rice, they can plant some plants, they can do some non-farm things, but do it with moderation and don't be over His Majesty in committing themselves to big projects while all borrowing without knowing what is happening. So that's two sides of the thing. Try to make it sure that the inroads of formal treatment goes through the informal channels and try to incinerate the sense of having the right attitude in approaching economic activities. Could you maybe comment from your side about how informal systems, if you've got examples. Yeah, and what we have seen is actually when you work through the school system or through community centers, it is very, very powerful because for a bank or to take, to open a savings account with each individual or to even get a card or whatever, with each individual, there's a very high acquisition cost because you're doing it individual to individual. However, if we look at community systems, community centers, to go to a school and then teach the children and then open savings accounts, A, acquisition costs are low, transaction costs are low. So financially it makes a lot of sense and at the same time you're building on an existing system. What we have found when I will say from my experiences in India, we started teaching financial education in very remote rural schools where there were no banks and we started with the children where the children started saving money. Parents who had never saved money, actually the mothers especially started giving the children money. So the school was like, how can a child have so much money?  So then the money started coming from the home to the schools and because of that, then the school started linking them to formal banks and then because there were so many accounts, banks were willing to come to the school to transact business. So just a very informal way in a very rural area built the financial economy through the school with a very small program. And I think this is something which we need to be looking at and building on and not especially in East Asia, not doing away with the informal systems and the family and the community which exists. So I think that's something we need to look at in a lot of models. Do you have any comment on that? I think the only point that I would make is the success of microfinance has been based on community. And I think so it's not so much a question of either or, it's how do you put those things together? How do you ensure that you've got a low cost delivery system there that can respect the local community structures but also deliver access to other services to bring people up and encourage positive behavior? If I may, I mean I'm very thankful actually this topic of informal social protection has come up because again if I look at the Western world, let's talk about the core of informal networks which is the family, the immediate family. And I think over the last few decades we've seen a deterioration of the family and family values in the Western societies where the caring for the parents and elderly people the caring for sick people has been increasingly taken over by the state and away from the family. There have been other developments around broken up families and an end. And I do think that governments as the leaders of society have to, as the directors of the society, elected directors of society have to think about whether they are going to tolerate these developments or whether they even encourage them with providing maybe too much support versus finding ways to provide the right level of support while maintaining I think a social concept that has served humanity very well for centuries. And I think that's the biggest, one of the biggest fears probably I have was yes, let's expand social protection in the right way but let's not go overboard. So you're, I mean what I think is emerging so far in this discussion and it'd be interesting to get audience reaction in just a minute but I'd like to maybe ask the deputy prime minister. We're talking about that the idea that values are very important, values that reinforce family, that reinforce community, that reinforce education and the several of you have mentioned the issue of conditionality that in order to be eligible for certain payments that behavior that represents those values should be demonstrated. That is, that's I'd have to say though this far in this discussion a concept that I think we don't often hear in the West. Governments tend to try to sometimes stand aside from stepping into the values question but here in this panel it's coming out as a very important aspect of getting a sustainable inclusive productive social protection system. As the government official on this panel how do you feel in that regard about values being part of the policy to reinforce those traditional values? In case of Cambodia I spoke about a war of fragmented social protection and the government cannot do everything and we are to have partnership, real partnership with private sector and with individual also. So we have to look to idea first we have to shift from the fragmentation system to fragmentation to system. Systemize the system and also like you put it move from exclusion to inclusion but it's a theme of our discussion. So we have a present government work with business to complement each other in order to establish a formal social protection program by adopting the approach I told you first shifting from fragmentation to system in order to respond to future economic crisis and climate change. A system oriented approach to social protection program should be strengthened and coordination should strengthen coordination and integration. We have established the fund managed by public sector meaning we have a fiscal space for that. First national security fund, national social security fund cover employment, injury and occupational disease including provisional for medical services, funeral cost, survival functions, some 100,000 workers are covered with 80% from government industry. Both government and employer government and employer contribute to this fund. Two national security fund for civil servant about one roughly to nearly 200,000 civil servant are covered with their family and this fund by government budget. National fund for veterans also and national disability fund. So we try to build this system in the right way. Secondly, we have to move from exclusion to inclusion. The social system managed by private sector includes the following health insurance and workman compensation program provided by private general insurance company. So insurance industry. Life insurance offered by life insurance company like we have three week operator, financial, with number life and also Cambodian life we join venture with our regional partner. And another point is about micro finance, micro insurance and micro life insurance product offered by private provider throughout micro finance institution and micro life insurance institution to pay on behalf of the borrower in case of it. Say now, like the day before yesterday, I mentioned that now micro finance cover 1.6 million of household and the micro life insurance now they are only at their 20,000 customer household but they am at 1 million household. And we speak also about the innovation and technology. Innovation we have introduced the link between social protection to micro finance in form of interest insurance like I told you and the micro insurance product offered by private provider throughout micro finance institution to pay or I repeat on behalf of borrower in case of it but it also is a technology solution. Yes, now it's on work about the cash payment by phone but the experience in our country shows that you need also physical present of the same micro finance offer of the itself. It's all in case of Cambodian. Thank you. Could I add two examples from two countries in terms of having governments trying to cultivate the value system? The one example that we've been working with is in Ethiopia. You know, government of Ethiopia is very forward looking but so sad that the former prime minister pass away so soon. But he actually instigated the first construction of hydroelectric dam by not using at all external borrowings. He was offered loans from World Bank and from external sources but he actually flowed domestic bonds mobilizing from savings of the Ethiopians and they organized throughout the schools throughout the whole country of Ethiopia that children pull their small, small savings together so that about 10, 20 can buy one bond and this is a national, it sounds very nationalistic but it creates a kind of value that the children love the hydro power dams and they love to have the ownership savings to help the public sector. So this is one very good example, I like very much. The second one is in Poutan. You know, the Poutan is government, is just the king, they have this movement called the Growth Happiness Index which seems something so strange for economists but I like the idea not because of economic, it doesn't have much for me economic sense but it has the right sense of instilling the sense of value to the people that you don't go for cash growth, you don't just go for finance alone, you go for happiness and they try to survey, have stakeholders meeting to survey, what is it that gives the kind of happiness indications for the family? Is it the big family taking care of all people living together, having community activities, things like that, so these are two examples, thank you. Excellent, well in the principle of happiness, a happy audience is a good audience. So I guess it's a good time now to introduce the audience to the floor and if anybody has questions, if you have comments, please keep them brief but try to put something in the form of a question. I just ask that you raise your hand, when you speak please identify yourself and your organization where you're from. So I saw two hands on this side, please go ahead Eduardo. Thank you, my name is Eduardo Clin, I work with Helpage International. I think Consuperchai said it very clearly, without social protection there is no sustainable growth but history also shows an economic historian without social protection there is no economic growth. One goes with the other. And just one comment, in Great Britain, right after the war, Winston Churchill was at the peak of its popularity but then came Lord Beverage and he put forth the fourth squalor, the fourth maladies of the British society which were hunger, lack of health, lack of housing and all that and they developed the social, comprehensive social protection system and Churchill with all the peak of its popularity lost elections because what was needed at that time was the national health system that NHS that was born at that time. And this still may be questioned but it is there. What happened then? There was a generation that increased life expectancy increased, health levels increased, productivity increased dramatically in Britain in those years. So and that was largely result of that. So if we say my question to you is, do you think that in Asian countries or in Myanmar in particular, there is nobody from Myanmar in the panel but Myanmar has the opportunity to, and the challenge to balance its investment but to invest in people through a comprehensive social protection system, it would have to have a very thorough design so as to avoid mischanneling resources but at the same time build the capacities with a child allowances, old age allowances. Myanmar is a very particular country. Only 8% of people who reach old age have formal pension. So you need to establish some sort of guarantee in old age guarantee for children. So I would say that the key dimensions of investment in social protection don't overdo it, they don't create a wrong mentality in people. Those do not fix here. Here you need desperately a system of social protection with the mindset of future development. Thank you. Eduardo, have another hand in the back here. In relation to his comment and question, two points quickly. Could you identify yourself please? I'm from the International Confederation, Trade Union Confederation Asia Pacific. We represent 56 unions in this region including Cambodia and Myanmar here. Now, one point, first point, informal economy. Our experience in India, we have three organizations there and one organization is purely for informal economy women. They are supporting the micro home-based workers. Membership is 1.4 million. The other one, two organizations have reportedly organized waiting for verification more than 20 million. How they are doing is to support the peace rate with the employers through the branches of organizations. And the other one is to provide information, provide the informal workers with information about the governmental schemes, connecting the informal economy to the governmental scheme. But this is only possible where the government has a good scheme or some sort of social protection. Second point is the social protection is very important to redress the inequality. In one country, the current GD index is 0.37 but without adequate social safety nets and taxation, that figure would rise to 0.53. This is significant. Now, Dr. Spacha told us the difference between Europe and the Asia. According to the ILO, I remember the average figure of GDP spent on social safety nets in EU is 25% but in this region, 5% only. This is a great change. And I want to ask Mr. Spacha how we can make a breakthrough? How we can convince the social partners and government? Thank you. Would you like to start with that, Dr. Spacha? I think I have actually alluded to the necessity to do sort of fiscal reform, tax policy reform. Because not only reform to be more efficient in the way taxes are being collected but also reforms to make taxes more progressive. This is a very favorite topic with my fellow economists but it's never been practiced by politicians. I have been a politician in my life for 15 years and we try and try to talk about land taxation. Taxation on assets must be increased. Taxation on assets, financial assets must be increased but it's never done. But I keep proposing this and this is one way out that I would see. Just to respond to a gentleman's question on the... The exact question, but... The scarcity of pensions, for example. So can I just... You have two sides of the same question. Ricardo's asking, can you afford not to have social protection and then the question you were about to raise, that was raised earlier, is how can countries afford or how can they raise the percentage of social protection? The one was fiscal reform. I think it's a great question. One was fiscal reform. Another one and you actually targeted Myanmar. Myanmar cannot afford to go through even the very basic requirements in Asia which is very minimal already but the first thing that Myanmar will have to do is to try to have universal security education. Security education, vocational training, universal. That is not expensive. And secondly, coverage of retirement benefits. Very necessary and not very expensive. So these two first for social protection for Myanmar. For me. We have a gentleman here. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I'm Professor Miao. I'm a US medical doctor, now a parliamentarian. Because I want to congratulate all the non-speakers for their different perspectives that enrich my knowledge. That is first point. Second point is, Myanmar is doing everything what all the non-speakers has mentioned but we need to improve and expand our activities. I would like to say that now the wall has moved from previous economic paradigm to green sustainable development consisting of sustainable development plus poverty reduction, ecological, economic, cultural and political dimensions. That is the first concept we have to make and our people should have. So second point is, third point is for security. People think insurance and everything. Because it is a lifespan approach and the non-speakers customize or specific for each group. As a doctor, I said all women, pregnant women especially or unmarried women, they are nutritionally deficient. Whose security as a household level is important. Yesterday I discussed about the national food security and things. Houseful food security. Of course they are eating food but not nutritious. So the macro nutrition and micro nutrition that is first point. And security. Now how about the rural people, 70% mostly women, if they are weak and nimic, what sort of baby they are going to produce low blood weight. As the speaker mentioned about the maternal child, mortality is dependent on nutrition. That is first point. And their access to the good quality healthcare during their pregnancy and delivery. That is first point. Another security measure, we are embarking on that but we don't have much resources. That is first point. Another is health security. Apart from the maternal and safe delivery things, essential good quality primary healthcare is most important thing in our country and access to generic medicine is another thing. And even HIV, about 5% of the people fighting HIV they are receiving things. But whereas in other country, more than 25%. And the UN is doing great work for that achievement. That is first point. Security is concerning with educational security means we are embarking on primary education but the thing is we should not stop at the free compulsory education at the primary level because for their livelihood they have to proceed further secondary education and vocational training skill development is very important for our country and the international community I will finish. Thank you. And then employment because I am the chairman of the Women's and Children's Affairs Committee. Employment. Most of the women are working in a rural but they are underpaid and the young people we are for the ADB declared that it is not due to unemployment but due to lowly paid job that is how to do that. And then I want to I don't want to discuss about you are looking at me so prepaid social security scheme community-based insurance scheme private is for profit so that when we are developed the private insurance will come but we have to develop community-based insurance scheme like informal psychology mentioned that. That is a pull-on tree. Thank you very much. Thank you. I will stop here. Thank you very much. It's important we have a perspective from from Myanmar and that's very valuable. Thank you. We have any other one question here. I'm going to take two questions and then we'll respond. I'm going to do three but can you make it very brief because we're running close to the end here. One, two, three and those will be the last questions. Thank you very much. My name is Runa Khan. I'm from an organization called Friendship from Bangladesh. I deal with the most poorest people in Bangladesh which are the mobile communities of the rivers and the coastal belts and there is an aspect which you said that you think of charity as not being important anymore but you know the difference between that one five dollars a day which is the poverty bracket and point two five dollars a day is really a difference between life and death and for people of that area you know point two five dollars a day you need to give them something more than just you need to give them the freebies and charities to be able to put them up because they are growing and they are growing because even the UN is not recognizing them as being different from the one point two five dollars which are rich compared to the point two five dollars. Secondly, the government themselves are often making projects and programs which are only geared to the average of a nation and the country so you're saying to include the informal sectors the informal sectors are dealing with those which are getting left behind not within the average so I think there is some amount which needs to be they need to be addressed and recognized also Thank you, I don't I think it might have been misunderstood I think it was that that Kon Supachai was exactly agreeing with you that the informal is critical and needs to be supported fully and so you're definitely agreeing, okay Timothy Ma from Hong Kong I would like to share a case that I think to encourage and not deal with the social protection issue particularly for the cross generation poverty we have a project called public private and family the children are encouraged to save up their money even they are very poor and then the business sector is going to match the amount that they have and then the government is also giving the incentive so it's a tripartite partnership but not only the poor family but also the business sector and also the government so I think it's a concerted effort to deal with the cross generation poverty Thank you One more John Davies from Intel I run the global digital divide education and other programs in Intel and Jiru I really enjoyed your comments about the community and the lower cost ways of delivering services to the poor people they reminded me of a program in India and I have a question on this where about five years ago I was involved with the government and they were putting community centers in villages maybe they have two computers or four computers and we ended up involved with the training of the people and I went back to see some of these and what you'd see is the services were being provided by people that could work from it, you would see training and ladies would come to me and say I got trained and I got a job in the mall on the register because I learned some IT skills or there would be people that would come back and say I learned could you access these government services because I could use this computer for a couple of minutes and this person trained me and the one that really surprised me and I think it relates to yourself and certainly probably Mastercard as well in the audience look a $10 micro loan processing could often cost $5 to be processed in a central bank but we do it locally for pennies and we're the agents of the bank in the village and I think then government drove this but the ladies were then making $100, $150 a month they were very happy they wanted more and I think that program scoured up somewhat in India last time I tracked it was more like $100,000 female entrepreneurs now is that the kind of program that exists in Southeast Asia or can it be made to work in Southeast Asia because I just thought it was a brilliant program of me in many of the goals that a lot of you spoke about today are you familiar with that program no I know the program but I don't know whether it exists in Southeast Asia do you think from what you know I mean that it might be worth studying yeah definitely I think it's something which can be done because basically through computer education it's also one of the most important if you say what do you want to learn in either a Islam community or a rural community it's English and computers that's what most people say as the standard response so if you have something which sort of links to that it is very renumerative what hasn't been added is many farmers also learned computers and knew where to be able to sell their products so they got a higher amount of money from middlemen etc so I do think if you link it to a community center or a school you are able to take it to a much larger area and that's the reason why school-based education is something you can do well we've come to that time of the event where we have the most challenging assignment which is for each panelist in one sentence to summarize the most meaningful point that you take away from this discussion something that surprised you or a lesson learned in one sentence so I'd like to start with Deputy Prime Minister I agree with all ideas that put forward here but I see there is no one size fit all solution so we have to work accordingly to the reality of each country thank you I will use a German sentence which can be as long as an entire page go right ahead you have one sentence from whatever culture you choose it was said social protection requires economic growth and economic growth requires social protection indeed that relationship is that critical I think governments need to get much more proactive in designing the appropriate social protection policy and I am not sure the right organizational models are in place because it is such a comprehensive topic involves job and employment social protection health the MOF Ministry of Finance and I just doubt that the level of integrated perspective is existing today across all these government ministries I think that's organizational solution that has to be put in place to enable that kind of strategy and planning that has to happen thank you it has been a long standing in my mind to see that in Asia we adopt national social safety net of protection as a national policy that is not based on partisan interests that is not based on fly by night populism policies and it must be sustainable in a way that the revenue support could be explained and understood in a way that is sustainable thank you I would say the key for me is community engagement and government coordination I think the government has to lead I think that is critically important we are seeing governments around the world do this with Nigeria with some of the examples that have been used India the Philippines is a great contingent program already in place which is taking advantage of a very focused on community level delivery but also utilizing technology which particularly mobile, particularly ICT payments etc to deal with the economics of delivery to these customers so to me it is that integration which is key I think it is for me reinforcing a belief that if you have to have social protection and integration we need a multi stakeholder approach and the policies we develop also have to be ensuring we look at all different target groups and of course I see what I always say start young so you are able to shape a generation and a future that is what I would say thank you very much we have covered a lot in a short period of time and I think if you walk away from this exercise seeing a lot of opportunity that is terrific if you see a lot of complexity you are a realist I think the important thoughts which were well summarized here boil down to a few things one of which is you can't divorce the underlying economy, jobs health, nutrition water, sanitation the basic aspects we sometimes don't think of as part of social protection you can't separate that from protection because that provides a foundation that values matter we talked, we heard conditionality we heard reinforce self-responsibility reinforce family, reinforce community that even though governments have formal programs those informal systems including NGOs and charity we should be reinforcing informal systems so confidence to have values matter we heard technology is a big part of the solution and it cash I'm sorry that cash is the enemy of inclusion and perhaps mobile cash or mobile value and the introduction of accounts at an early age that can actually be a tremendous breakthrough and leapfrog and finally we heard think ahead that promising benefits today and delivering benefits tomorrow are not the same thing and tax policies and fiscal policies and good planning matter so I think it's been a terrific discussion I want to thank the panelist I want to thank the audience also for adding a lot of great ideas and good questions and we're adjourned thank you


Felly mae'n rhoi cyflaudech yn y llwyfodol yn oesaf gyda ni i gael, ac mae'n llwyfodol ein bod yn y ôl yn y celf. Mae'r bethwn yn tîm mwy yn yr oedd y Ysgrifenni John Swinnie ac mae'n cyffredinant am y Chylinegarol 7 o gynhyrchu cyffredinant. Mae'r iawn cymryd wedi gweithio o'r ystafell gan ystafell a naddydd sy'n mynd o cyfwilio i'r cyffredinant o'r cyffredinant. Felly mae'r iawn cymryd ysgrifenni John Swinnie ydw i gael, a oedd y maes yn 10 miliadau. Rwyf i… Mae'n gwirionedd yn gyntafol i'r ystyried diwylliannol o'r statudio i'r cwyrd ar y byd ac yn dweud cyfanol y byd yn ddiogelio'r pandemicaeth Cymru yn Scotland oedd. O'r ystafell ar hyn i'n fwybodaeth o'r cyffredinol, rwyf wedi'n meddwl cyfleu cwyrd i'r cyffredinol a yn enwedigol i'r syniad ymddiadau o'r cyfanol. Rwyf i'n fwybodaeth ymddiadau o'r cyffredinol a'r cyfanol i'r cyfanol i'r cyffredinol teimlo i ddweud o'u ddweud o'u gwirioneddol i'r byth i'r llellen iawn, byddwn i mewn ddechrau i ddweud y gweithio i ddweud y gweithio, i ddweud y ddweud o'i ddweud o'u wath deimlo i amser oherwydd wrth mae'n ei ddyw oahu. Ond, rwy'n adnodd i'n cael myth i'u ddweud ac i'n ei ddweud o ddweud o'u ddweud o'r pryd ag y Com cerv. A cydwch i ddweud i ddirprwy y ciwmmar o'n darllenweithio, The emergence of the Omicron variant is a start reminder to us all that this pandemic continues to evolve and challenge us. But that does not mean that we can delay our efforts to learn from the past. Indeed, it underlines the importance and urgency of learning lessons from what has gone before. The purpose of this inquiry is twofold. It is to provide scrutiny and answers to the questions that people have about how this pandemic has been handled in Scotland. Equally, it is to learn lessons so that we can be as ready as possible to respond to future pandemics. It is in that spirit that this public inquiry is being established. And it is how we expect it to continue to provide answers and to help us make improvements for the future. At this point, I want to express my heartfelt thanks to everyone who has played a part in responding to the pandemic, whether on the front line in hospitals and care, in keeping shops and businesses going, at home finding new ways to work, in taking the vaccine and help to protect people around about you. Responding to this pandemic has taken a lot from people across Scotland and I want to thank every individual who has played their part. In developing the terms of reference for this Covid-19 inquiry, it has been a key priority for the Scottish Government to listen to those who have been affected by the pandemic, to understand what they wish for the inquiry to focus on while recognising the need to establish the inquiry quickly. This includes first and foremost those who have endured the ultimate loss, bereaved families of partners, parents, children, sisters, brothers as well as people who have lost friends and colleagues. Every life lost is one too many and my condolences go to all those who have suffered losses and hardship. It also includes wider groups of people who have been affected, whether carers, people working in health and social care, councils, businesses or community organisations. We have also taken care to listen to equality and human rights groups. In the course of establishing this inquiry, we have taken over 400 written submissions and received more than 80 online ideas and nearly 200 comments through an online dialogue challenge. We have met more than 70 stakeholders from the third sector, the private sector and the public sector. The feedback that we have received has been considered carefully by the Scottish Government and captured in an engagement analysis report, which we are also publishing today. The feedback from people affected by the pandemic has been key in developing the terms of reference that I am sharing with Parliament today. This includes not least strong public support for an inquiry with human rights at its heart. Matters that people have raised have fed directly into the development of the scope of the inquiry. I want to thank everyone who has contributed their thoughts during this process. I know that, for many, this will have not been an easy thing to do. The terms of reference for the inquiry set out 12 areas of investigation, each covering a strategic element of the handling of the pandemic. Those are as follows. Pandemic planning and exercises carried out by the Scottish Government. The decision to lockdown and to apply other restrictions. The delivery of a system of testing, outbreak management and self-isolation. The design and delivery of a vaccination strategy. The supply, distribution and use of personal protective equipment. The requirement for shielding and associated assistance programmes provided or supported by public agencies. In care and nursing homes, the transfer of residents to or from homes, treatment and care of residents, restrictions on visiting, infection prevention and control, changes to inspections. The provision of healthcare services including the management and support of staff. The delivery of end-of-life care and the use of do not attempt cardiopulmonary resuscitation decisions. Welfare assistance programmes, for example those relating to benefits or the provision of food provided or supported by public agencies. The delivery of education and certification and financial support and guidance given to businesses and the self-employed including in relation to identification of key workers by public agencies. In investigating those 12 strategic elements, the terms of reference further ask the chair to consider the impacts of handling of the pandemic on the exercise of convention rights and to create a full factual record of the key strategic elements of the handling of the pandemic. With the exception of the investigation of pandemic planning, the period covered by the inquiry will be from 1 January 2020 to 31 December 2022. The chair is asked to identify lessons and implications for the future and to provide recommendations providing reports to Scottish ministers as soon as practicable. As I stand here, I am keenly aware of a fundamental challenge of striking the right balance between on the one hand, addressing the wide range of questions that so many people have and on the other, making sure that this inquiry can be delivered at speed so that we can learn and benefit from lessons as early as possible. To that effect, I have agreed with the chair that, as they begin their work, they will reflect on the terms of reference and suggest adjustments should they wish to. If ministers then agree any changes to the terms of reference, I will undertake to inform Parliament as soon as possible. That includes adjustments to take into account the remit of the United Kingdom-wide public inquiry that the UK Government has undertaken to establish, as well as any issues arising in the on-going pandemic that the inquiry judges to be important to investigate. We remain committed to working with the United Kingdom Government to develop the approach to the UK-wide inquiry and expect the chair of the Scottish public inquiry to co-ordinate with the chair of the UK-wide inquiry. The full text of the terms of reference is available on the Scottish Government website as of now. Over the past few months, ministers have been in discussions with the Lord President of the Court of Session to find a suitable chair for the inquiry in line with our commitment to have the inquiry led by a judge. I would like to express my thanks to the Lord President for his co-operation on this issue. Today I am pleased to announce to Parliament that the Honourable Lady Poole has agreed to chair the Scottish Covid-19 inquiry. Lady Poole is a sitting senator of the College of Justice of Scotland and is also sat as a judge in the upper tribunal of the United Kingdom. From my own and the First Minister's interactions with Lady Poole, I am left with no doubt that Lady Poole is highly qualified for the demanding task put in front of her. I believe that she will bring pace and energy to the work of the inquiry, as well as a cool, calm head, and that she will approach experiences of the pandemic sensitively and sympathetically. I am satisfied that Lady Poole possesses the leadership skills, integrity and deep technical knowledge to undertake this inquiry. Of crucial importance, I note in particular Lady Poole's high degree of expertise in administrative law and human rights law, which is exactly in line with the expectations that we have that the inquiry should take a human rights-based approach. I should say that Lady Poole has also made clear to the First Minister and to me her own conviction that human rights and equalities should be addressed as part of the inquiry and in the way that the inquiry is run. I am convinced that Lady Poole will approach the inquiry in such a manner as to do justice to those who have suffered through this pandemic and to make sure that we learn the lessons that we need to learn so that Scotland is prepared for the next pandemic. No panel members will be appointed today. It will be for the chair to decide whether to appoint any assessors to provide expertise on particular subjects or any other assistance to the inquiry. In the coming period, the chair of the inquiry will make necessary preparations on operational matters, including the appointment of the inquiry's key staff. Once set up, the inquiry will make announcements about its approach and progress as the chair sees fit. I extend my thanks to Lady Poole for being prepared to take on this most important challenge on behalf of the people of Scotland. We all need the inquiry to explore the handling of the pandemic and to identify the lessons that we all need to learn. I pledge that the Scottish Government will engage, as I know this Parliament and everyone in Scotland will, to support Lady Poole in this most important task that she now takes forward on behalf of us all. The cabinet secretary will now take questions on the issues raised in his statement and I intend to allow around 20 minutes for questions, after which time we will move on to the next item of business. It would be helpful if those members who wish to ask a question were to press the request to speak buttons now. I call Murdo Fraser. Thank you, Deputy First Minister. I thank the cabinet secretary for his statement and for advance sight of it. I welcome the establishment of the inquiry being announced today. It will be particularly welcomed by the relatives of those who tragically lost their lives in care homes to Covid, who have been waiting patiently for this process to begin. I also welcome the appointment of Lady Poole as inquiry chair with her focus on human rights and equalities. I have two questions to ask today of the Deputy First Minister. Firstly, those who lost loved ones want answers as to what went wrong. They also want to know when they are likely to get those answers. The Deputy First Minister said that this process would be conducted at speed. I appreciate that it may not be an easy question for him to answer, but it would be helpful if he gave us an indication of when he might expect Lady Poole to report on her findings. I think that the relatives would welcome that. Secondly, the Deputy First Minister will be aware of concerns that we expressed about the report by Public Health Scotland on Covid deaths in care homes up to February not being published as scheduled because of the Holyrood elections in May. Can we have an assurance from the Deputy First Minister that the Scottish Government will co-operate fully with the inquiry and make all necessary information available to it as quickly as possible? On the first question that Mr Fraser asked me, he is absolutely right that it is a difficult question for me to answer. There are different ways in which public inquiries can take forward their reporting responsibilities. It will be for Lady Poole to determine how she does that. If I give Mr Fraser an example, Lady Smith in the Historic Child Abuse Inquiry has published a series of case study findings in the course of her work. I think that that has been very helpful in giving answers to individuals who have experienced abuse in those circumstances. I hope that the way in which we have structured the remit of the inquiry on Covid perhaps gives the opportunity for Lady Poole to consider whether there is an interim set of conclusions that she could publish on a similar case study basis. That is, of course, me intruding on the design of the inquiry that I am not entitled to do. We obviously want a report as quickly as possible, or we want findings as quickly as possible, but clearly there has to be adequate time to undertake those tasks. I am sure that Lady Poole will make clear her approach to that point in due course. In relation to Mr Fraser's second point, I would dispute the narrative that he sets out, but I assure him that the Scottish Government will co-operate fully with the inquiry. I have given a pledge to do so, and the Government will do that in every way that is required to do so. I thank the Deputy First Minister for an advance copy of his statement, and I too welcome the announcement that the Honourable Lady Poole will preside over the public inquiry. It is important that we do not wait to learn lessons from the initial decisions around the pandemic to inform thinking as quickly as possible. On that basis, can the Deputy First Minister indicate when the inquiry will start? The previous Cabinet Secretary for Health set out the four harms that would be considered by the public inquiry, and I am pleased to see that they are reflected in the remit. It is right that some of the focus will be on deaths in care homes, which were at the very epicentre of the pandemic and decisions by Scottish ministers to discharge people from hospital without testing. It will also examine the non-Covid health impacts, and today the National Records Office told us that the number of deaths for non-Covid-related reasons has increased. The number of deaths in quarters 1, 2 and 3 is all higher than the previous five-year average, up by 15 per cent alone in the last quarter. Cancer deaths are up, coronary heart disease deaths are up, deaths from dementia and Alzheimer's were also up. Can the Deputy First Minister confirm that item H of the remit will encompass looking at whether decisions to cancel cancer screening programmes, delays in diagnosis and the cancellation of operations that perhaps contributed to this higher than normal death toll amongst the population will be fully considered? The formal process of the establishment of the inquiry requires there to be a setting date established, which will be as early in the new year as we can arrange, and that essentially is a matter of negotiation between the Government and Lady Poole with Lady Poole very much in the driving seat of determining that moment. We will get the inquiry established so that it can then begin its proceedings. We have taken a very significant step to get to the appointment of a chair at terms of reference, interim staffer in place to support Lady Poole, and she will be able to make steps. I know that she wishes to proceed at pace to establish the inquiry. In relation to the wider questions, many of the issues that Jackie Baillie raised are frankly matters for the inquiry to consider. The heart of the handling of Covid has been the four harms framework. It was a policy development which I led within Government to recognise the fact that there are no easy choices to be made in the handling of the Covid pandemic, and I acknowledge that there have been significant implications for other health services as a consequence of the prioritisation of Covid care. Sadly, that is what happens when a global pandemic comes upon us. The inquiry will be able to consider and reflect all that thinking in what has been a very broad remit that has been given to the inquiry, and Lady Poole will be able to reflect on all of those questions.  First, I would like to extend my condolences to all those who have lost loved ones to Covid-19. My thoughts are also with those who are living with long Covid. I too thank the Deputy First Minister for sight of his statement, and I am pleased to hear of and welcome the appointment of Lady Poole as chair of the public inquiry and also of the human rights-based approach. It is important that the actions taken by Government during the pandemic or lessons learned are both good and bad. It is important that the public inquiry does not take years and years to report and the moment to learn is lost. In the time that it can take, memories fade, contemporary evidence is lost and any hope of accountability with us. Can the Deputy First Minister provide an assurance that the voices of all those impacted across health and care, education and the wider community will be at the Rootithee inquiry? Can I impress on the Deputy First Minister to clarify her timetable so that we do not have another Penrose or Chilcot inquiry? Deputy First Minister. Presiding Officer, there is always in the timetable of an inquiry the challenge between the need to provide adequate examination of all the issues involved and the speed of reporting. I know that that is an issue that Lady Poole feels very acutely. She has made it clear to me that she does not want to spend the remainder of her judicial career leading this inquiry and I very much agree with that sentiment. So I think that Lady Poole will be determined to make sure the inquiry covers the ground that it has to cover but it does so efficiently and promptly so we can learn licence and there can be the understanding and the accountability that Beatrice Wishart properly talks about in that respect. So I cannot at this stage prescribe the timescale but I do give Parliament the assurance that Lady Poole is keen to make as swift progress as she can and the Government is very happy to support her in that endeavour. John Mason to be followed by Stanislaw Gohani. Thank you very much and I do welcome the inquiry but clearly as the Deputy First Minister said the pandemic is still evolving and some people might think that it was too early to be having a public inquiry because we cannot look back at the whole thing so how would you respond to such people? Deputy First Minister. Mr Mason is absolutely correct. We've just had a statement that's dominated the afternoon session of Parliament today which has reflected on the latest challenge that we've had thrown at us from Omicron. Three weeks ago the Cabinet had a discussion in which I think it would be generally summed up that the pandemic was in a relatively stable position. We found ourselves 48 hours later taking a dramatically different view because of the emergence of Omicron. Mr Mason makes a very fair point but I think what the Government has to acknowledge is that the public have a desire to ensure that whilst we are dealing with this difficult situation we are also learning lessons to influence policy making in the future and that's what the Government is committed to ensuring is the case and we will co-operate with the inquiry but at the same time we have to give the attentive focus on ensuring that we manage the pandemic that we currently face and I'm happy to give that assurance to the Parliament today. To be followed by Co-Cab Stewart Dr Gohani has joined us remotely. Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer. I only stood for election because I felt there was poor communication between the Scottish Government and the NHS during the pandemic and so I do welcome this inquiry. Would the cabinet secretary give an assurance that we could look at long Covid and we can look at how we have gone about treating patients who suffer from this debilitating condition? Deputy First Minister I think what Parliament will recognise is that I've endeavoured to ensure that we have the broadest possible remit available for the inquiry. I think asking Lady Poole to judge about the treatment mechanisms for long Covid feels to me like a clinical matter which is perhaps beyond the scope of the inquiry. There are plenty of clinical advisers that can consider the issues around the treatment of long Covid. Lady Poole is free to explore all of the questions that are relevant to the terms of reference and if there are issues in relation to long Covid, which are eyes, I'm quite sure we will hear about those issues. Co-Cab Stewart to be followed by Pam Duncan-Clancy and Co-Cab Stewart is joining us remotely. Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer. I welcome this public inquiry and I'm hopeful that it will be better. I would like to ask the Scottish Government how it will ensure that all viewpoints and voices are heard in the public inquiry specifically the voices of our asylum seeker and refugee population. Thank you First Minister. There are two points I'd make in relation to Co-Cab Stewart's question. The first is that the inquiry is obviously embarking on its approach with a human rights based approach in the interests of different groups within our population. It's very important that the interests, the perspectives and the experience of different groups in our society are fully considered at the heart of the inquiry and I'm certain that the remit enables that to be the case. The second point I would make is a slightly more constrained point which is that the inquiry is required by law only to examine Scottish matters. So essentially the implications of Scottish matters on the asylum seeker community would be relevant to be considered but some of the questions about asylum policy for example are reserved issues for the United Kingdom Government and the inquiry would by law be unable to explore some of those questions. Pam Duncan-Glancy to be followed by Stuart McMillan. Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer. During the pandemic social care services stopped overnight for some people. Disabled people were left without help to wash their beds for weeks. This has had a significant impact on their human rights and it also meant that approximately 400,000 more people have taken on unpaid care 70% of whom haven't had a break and most of whom were women. On average women spent four and a half hours per day on unpaid work and the UN has said that it could put women's rights back by 25 years. The impact of decisions taken in social care on disabled people and on unpaid carers and women does not appear specifically in the remit nor does the unequal impact that the decision had on specific groups. Can the Deputy First Minister confirm that those issues are within the remit and the work of the inquiry? What we have tried to do in the remit of the inquiry is to set out the range of issues to define the broadest possible scope for issues to be considered and then in the notes on interpretation we have set out the basis of so-doing which is fundamentally about the application of convention rights as defined in the human rights act. We are trying to take right at the heart of the inquiry a human rights based approach which clearly involves an assessment of decision making on questions such as discrimination and about decisions that may have a discriminatory nature about them or implications of a discriminatory nature so all of those factors are legitimate issues to be considered within the scope of the inquiry. Stuart McMillan, to be followed by Gillian Mackay. Thank you, Presiding Officer. Can the Deputy First Minister provide an assurance that the public inquiry will engage with and speak to people from every constituency with an initial focus at least to those areas that have suffered the greatest from the pandemic? Deputy First Minister. I'm not sure if Mr McMillan is putting to me the term constituency in a parliamentary constituency sense or in a grouping within society. I think what's important is that the inquiry has got to reflect the experience of every part of the country as Mr McMillan will know from the community that he represents. Some communities have taken a much harsher impact as a consequence of some of the underlying issues of inequality that exist in those communities. Those issues will be considered and reflected on right across the whole of the country to ensure that we do adequate justice to the issues that are raised from the different experiences of different parts of the country. Gillian Mackay, to be followed by Christine Grahame. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. We're still very much in the middle of the pandemic with the development of the Omicron variant. The inquiry obviously cannot wait any longer. Can the cabinet secretary outline if the inquiry will provide interim reports to inform scrutiny work and how the on-going response to Omicron will be examined by the inquiry? Deputy First Minister. In relation to the last part of Gillian Mackay's question, the time scale of the inquiry or the period in scope goes up to 31 December 2022. There will be the opportunity to reflect on the experiences in relation to Omicron. In relation to the reporting questions in my response to Murdo Fraser, I gave the example that there is the opportunity should the inquiry decide to do so to take a case study reporting or a series of interim reports. Those are choices that Lady Poo will make and I'm quite sure she will consider the representations that are made in the course of this parliamentary statement and other experiences about how those matters may be best taken forward. Christine Grahame, followed by Brian Whittle. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Quite rightly, this is extensive in-depth and very welcome inquiry and I know that there are 12 heads. On the reports, I note that in the statement, Deputy First Minister, the chair has asked to identify lessons and implications for the future and to provide recommendations providing reports, that's plural, to Scottish ministers as soon as practicable. Am I assuming correctly that the chair is being asked to identify under a specific case what matters to report as soon as practicable in the interim reports rather than a full-fledged report for the entire inquiry? Deputy First Minister. Yes, the chair has got scope to consider how best to address the 12 areas of investigation that are at the heart of the terms of reference of the inquiry and that it will be up to Lady Poole to determine how best to hear and to structure evidence to enable that and then to report accordingly. Those matters would be I've given a perhaps suggested some more detail than I probably should have in the course of this statement but it will be for Lady Poole to determine the issues independently of Government and I stress that she will be operating absolutely independently of Government. Brian Whittle to be followed by Jim Fairlie. In light of what the Deputy First Minister has just said there, will the inquiry be allowed to examine the way in which the Scottish Government reported to Parliament and the way in which the Scottish Parliament were permitted to scrutinise Scottish Government decisions? Deputy First Minister. I think the terms of reference are there. I think my judgment would be that Lady Poole might think that the way in which Parliament scrutinises Scottish Government is a matter for members of Parliament and members of the judiciary tend not to reflect on the processes of Parliament but I certainly if that was an issue which was to be considered that would be I have no opinion as to whether that should be the case or not. I do think just for the record there has been a voluminous amount of parliamentary scrutiny not least of which my Thursday morning meetings with Mr Whittle and his colleagues. Thank you, Presiding Officer. As well as the tragic health impact of Covid and the evident economic impact with the necessary protections there will be effects that we have still yet to feel. Can the Deputy First Minister outline how the inquiry chair will work to identify those areas so that all possible lessons are learned for future pandemics? Obviously but by defining a time period that extends to 31 December 2022 we expressly acknowledge the point that Mr Fairlie is making that we are still in an evolving situation it is reflected in the question that Mr Mason put to me as well a moment ago that we have to recognise that there may well be changes in developments in front of us and the inquiry has the opportunity to consider and to reflect on those issues and to make recommendations accordingly and that will be for the inquiry to determine how best to do that that would be inappropriate for ministers to prescribe that. Thank you, Deputy First Minister and that concludes the statement there will be a short pause to allow front benchers to move seats safely before the next item of business thank you