Welcome to the Crimson Engine. My name is Rubidium. Today we are looking at the new Samonic range of microphones, wireless audio transmitters and lavaliers. I met the Samonic guys at NAB this year. They had all these new products and I said, oh well tell me a little bit about them. And the guy working there, Jesse, said oh, I'll just send them to you and you can check them out yourself. So here we are. The new range consists of a very cool wireless mic pack, the transmitter TX9, the TXXLR9, and the RXXLR9. And these are XLR transmitters and receivers. So essentially they take the place of an XLR cable and this very long condenser supercardioid microphone, the SRTM7. So we'll start with the mic packs. Almost everyone needs a wireless lavalier on their film shoot. But once you start adding multiple inputs, it can get overwhelming pretty fast. Samonic have solved this by having a stereo pack that transmit to a single receiver. So you have two of these. I'm wearing one. The other one is what you can hear. And they become the left and right channel of a single receiver on the other end. Because lab microphones are mono, there's only one of them, you can transmit this into the left and right channel of a stereo signal. The pack on the other end then puts that into the respective channels of your recorder and you're able to get two labs, the left and right, onto a single stereo signal on your camera. So if you're shooting DSLRs, these are absolute lifesaver. If you're shooting XLR, like I am on the C200, you're able to break them apart and put them into separate XLR inputs and then control the levels independently. It's a real boon for independent filmmakers who want to have two labs and a shotgun microphone without a mixer at all. It can all go straight into the camera and you can have a pretty complete audio setup without a dedicated sound mixer. They were totally plug and play for me. I turned it on, they were synced up, the sound sounded great. They can also link via IR so they can infrared, they can sync to one another line of sight. If you're in the market for a dual lab pack and you don't want to pay the $700 that Sennheiser or Sony charge, these are a really cool alternative. Moving on, we have the TX XLR pack. So instead of an XLR cable between your shotgun or whatever microphone you have, you can plug this into one end and this into your camera and suddenly your beaming XLR stereo through the air. So you can use a mic like the SRTM7 here, plug your receiver into one end. Now you just plug this into your camera and now you're getting sound from your microphone. These guys both run on AA batteries. Like the lab kit, they have infrared synchrosia, that's what it's called, where they link up with one another without having to actually set the frequencies and they give you really good audio without having to have an XLR cable. Something I was particularly interested to find on the receiver because the XLR port on different cameras in different places, this actually rotates 360 degrees. So once you plug it into your camera, you can find the best arrangement for it. So it's not going to get in the way. So the XLR transmitter receivers aren't much good without a microphone. This guy is actually, can be run on both phantom power or an internal lithium-ion battery. If you look through the XLR port at the bottom, it has a little USB plug. You plug that into computer or power and you can charge this.  So it might be something that you charge every six months. The reason that this mic is so long, it's a supercardioid pattern. So it's very directional. It also has two different stages of high pass filter, low pass filter, a minus 10 decibel pad and a plus six decibel boost. This will give you pretty awesome directional sound from a couple of meters or what is that, six feet away. So if you, for some reason you're doing a wide shot, you can't get your boom mic close to the character who's speaking. You can pick up pretty great sound from pretty far away. As far as best practices go, if you really want to get great audio for your films and documentaries, you should have both of these things. You should have someone wear a lab pack and also have a shotgun microphone on a stand or being held by someone swinging in boom so that if the lab gets muffled like this or the boom isn't usable for some reason, you can get between the two of them and get the best audio or you can combine the two signals for a much richer fuller sound. Now this stuff is very competitively priced. I'll leave links in the description so you can see what it's worth at different places, but it's significantly cheaper than the industry standards and definitely has comparable quality. That's my look at the new Samonic range. Thank you very much for Samonic for sending it out. I'm going to get a lot of use from this. I really appreciate it. They really have upped their game as far as the quality, the build, the audio coming out of these boxes. So if you're a new filmmaker or looking to get into audio, this is a really good place to start. Thanks very much for watching. Links of course to all the stuff in the description. Leave your questions in the comments and I will see you next time.


Longtime Democratic State Representative Tina Liebling is ending her campaign for Governor. The Rochester lawmaker announced Monday she's dropping from the race. Liebling had struggled to gain traction and fundraising in the wide open race to replace Governor Mark Dayton. She says it was clear she could not win the DFL endorsement. Her exit leaves U.S. Rep Tim Walls, State Auditor Rebecca Otto and State Rep Erin Murphy in the race on the Democratic side. If you enjoyed this segment of Lakeland News, please consider making a tax-deductible contribution to Lakeland PBS.


here's communication Congress and Now I will start translating the herald and it is a great pleasure to present Andrea Matias Koch Who is going to talk about fourth on microcontrollers, please have a round of applause Hello Compiler optimizations for microcontrollers As well as who knows who of you knows for that's about half of the people So I should rather or better explain what fourth is. So fourth is a language That is stacked based And it uses reverse polish notation So first you Push a operands on the stack and then you specify the operator There's also so there's one stack for the Values and the operators and there's also a second stack for the return addresses of the functions The compiler itself is very simple. It is based on the So that you tokenize the input and if you find a word and And if it is a known word, then it compiles the word And and if it is recognized as a number, then it is pushed onto the stack as a number otherwise, it's called as a function and The nice thing about this language is that it is very small and it can easily be installed on a microcontroller and Because of this it is relatively easy to test and your software or your programs with this very small compiler instead of directly programming everything and So this makes it a lot easier to find mistakes in your programs. I Did not invent this language myself. It already Sists for several years as several decades and I but I've written one compiler, which is not so uncommon because writing for compilers is not difficult It's rather unusual to present yourself and so I'm I'm a physicist I have I'm doing my PhD currently in Laser spectroscopy in algae and So the name So the name might be unusual, but And you are controlling the MSP for 30 so It supports every MSP for 30 launch pads I'll talk later about the FPGA the classical architectures The ones that are usually implemented You had a virtual machine that has a list of pointers You take the pointer and you get another list of pointers or instead you use a sample of meridus This is very easy if you want to look for errors in compilers because it makes it easy and You can do some unusual stuff during the construction of the cabala Very old systems had the possibility to To indirect the pointers across another table so that you could change them later on Though if you have a definition very deep in the system You could change later on It is also very easy to decompile it in the original or in the old-fashioned way to implement it You just take the object on you Disassemble it change the the source code and then compile it again The optimizations I'm going to present you destroy this aspect, of course since here you use Machine code and you can't easily You don't have a one-to-one correspondence between the output and the input anymore Well already always had this problem that it was a little slow and of course my optimizations make this better Compiler construction theory, this is all pretty old news says all been done ages before but This is kind of hard to implement in small and so there are different optimizations like tail call constant folding inlining and some others and Depending on which so it's not available for all architectures, but I've listed the available architectures and So now we talk about tail call so in the you can make a take all if you have a Function call at the end of another function and then you can just skip the return and The return on the stack and just compress and shorten the path from jump returning from the function and There's also constant folding Which does compile time calculations on numbers? So that in the end in the final executable there will be a just a number no calculation so here we have an Example where you just put 42 on the stack and then also put in and minus minus and some other things and in the end you can already Execute this code at compile time and so this case it's pretty obvious that you can use it and and also With the help of other optimizations It might be possible to create a situation where a constant folding is suddenly possible And I would like to illustrate how a classical implementation of interpreters usually work So usually you start with a tokenizer which tries to find the tokens in the dictionary to see if they are already defined and And if they if there is a recognized token, so you have to decide if the code should be compiled or if it should not be compiled and And if it should be compiled then it will be compiled and and And Sorry, I lost track you need this for control structures because you can have jumps inside them If you don't find it If it has to be compiled and you put it on the stack if you can already compile it then put it Put the number on the stack if it is not a valid number then it is an error If In order to do that there you don't have to do a lot of changes It's just important that you don't compile the constants right away, but rather collect them and if you have an operation That will produce constant output from the constant input then you can immediately apply it So at the very beginning you now have to Have to take note of the state of the current stack at the beginning to know how many variables you have to available and If if you don't find another constant and you don't have to do constant folding you can just throw it away In the compile mode You check if the operator would produce constant output and if It has enough input values of constant class Obviously unary operators only take one constant and binary operators take two and so on So if you don't have enough yet you just leave them there and You just look later when you know enough At every point you know how many are necessary if the definition is Not usable at this point Then you have to compile the constants you already have and just do it the classical way But you can also change the classical call command you can add Immediate checks that means the function can have special cases Numbers always stay on the stack so they can be taken for the constant folding later. It's important to know that When you add a number then it already puts a marker on the stack If it's not if you can interpret it as a number then it's an error obviously This is in general possible to achieve this on every architecture independent of the way it works I have seen from my colleague Matthias Tröte he also implemented this on AVR And the next thing in lining of course this also does the compiler and So if you have the different so we have the definition that you would just insert the call command the body of the call command inside the calling code and So you just insert the code in place basically Then there's upcoding. I don't know how it's usually called and opcode is is Like a constant because an opcode is a sample assembly code basically and you could also put these opcodes onto the stack and Then you can also use very strict with this With the MSP 300 something this always works nicely, but And there's also the register register allocator Usually Usually when you do calculations and forth they end up on the stack, but it's more efficient to use registers which are just faster than the stack and Because it's usually the stacks and memory and you always have to retrieve the values for memory and If you can create a shortcut then it's a lot faster and you can also just have shorter commands important is It's important that it's all transparent for the programmer Because if you want to understand the logical structure the compiler needs to know that Needs to fall back to the original meaning of the code without the registers Because Programmers like to use all kinds of tricks So the essential for the register allocator is to know which element is at which place so during compilation the stack model has to be taken into constant iteration and It has to be known which stack element is it in which register If at all and yeah, so and if there's some intermediate results do we still have registers and If we have more Registers available then we can use them and if we don't then we have to write the immediate intermediate values out of the stack and it's You can implement it pretty small efficient space efficient and Normally with register allocators you have algorithms that try to Make it most efficiently. I use a simple solution. So I just used So whenever there's a branching in the code, I would just not use the Registers because it's too complicated. So I just stopped there and I just I Like to you at Brits show some examples first. I need to know that and So my work is based on many other nice things which I also will present So for example these two guys have Created all this stuff which this talk is based on so first of all we have the constant folding which is So here's an example So this is on the let-com implementation with the LED light LED you can use as a Cat vote and as an as a diode and as a cafe, but I'm not sure how to translate this and Okay, sorry, this was too fast He was saying that you could implement different programs for your coffee machines and make the LED signal error codes. So He defines a method called shine and uses and out and cathode as outputs If you disassemble it This is what happens I know it and cathode were constants that were folded into the hex into the constant 11 Now we use a Jump instead of a call. This is the tail call optimization which you see with the IO part Yeah You can also see the inlining at the point Where the the end at the end out was immediately inserted And you have another tail call at the very end and for the constant folding at the very beginning There was a very simple example During the compilation the compiler or you replace it The the constant instead of using the opcodes The pluses in the processor So you can combine it with the the opcode for the return You can say a lot about that kind of processor. It's easy. It's about 200 lines very lock It's interesting to take a look at it. If you want to if you're interested in that kind of stuff the MSP 430 is a processor that has a lot of different ways of addressing Memory with the tail call There's a bit of trickiness with How you address this so I didn't add tail calls here. So there's some examples here You define constants and at the very end You again target the LEDs for output This is an initialization for the launchpad This is what it looks like when you compile it. Okay, you have constant folding again and the commands are put in via inlining directly and you can take the parameters into the opcode coding and the output What you get is already what you would write as an assembler code The last instruction is the return My Chris the largest it's a direct report here on from me Chris the largest is the direct port of me Chris And this the star is launchpad was the first target It's almost identical to the MSP 430 At least in respect to optimizations But it has an a register allocator that I want to show you now Here's a more down-plicated example. This is the grade code. This is If you if you count up then only one bit changes You can see that there is no movement on the stack anymore the observed stack element is already included The immediate value Intermediate values that were calculated are put up on the stack again and the shift command Has a different register as a target here And put it on the top of the stack so wait, so you don't need a stack for this This is the thing that you try to use the registers as much as possible This is a more sophisticated example So here you have variables that should be I think in incremented As so you have this address which is loaded and Then you load another address and then you write it back. So you don't have any stack movements So who's curious now and who wants to start all MSP 40 4030 launch pads and many arm cortexes are now supported and Who uses different systems also can use for? There is for for the piece PC and for AVR and for pig and for that 80 many different for dialects and implementations and the reason is that For this very simple and many people just write their own compiler because it's because it's fun and Even though some people will be had me for this and you should just do it because you will get a deeper understanding about the language And so both sides have good arguments and I think it makes sense to just write your own farf compiler Okay, some more example because I have my side time So this tries to get some random numbers based on the digital analog converter and it reads data from the analog reader and And it adds up with Yeah intermediate result and So this is how it is compiled You see the loop You push is zero on the stack So let's have a look again So there was already a zero at the beginning and Then you do a shift which was inserted And then you have the constant 10 Unfortunately, there's only one push command So you'll have to use a different combination of stack pointer and something else and consecutively And then you increase increment the loop counter and And once the loop Terminates you can you jump back And now we have seen all in one Like in a real example This is a bigger example This is a bit exponential function is like an exponential function, but on bits and You can see different things What happens when you have control structures in between So in the beginning you have this You check if the number has a certain size and And you check a certain register And if And once you have control structures and it is not clear Which you need then of course the number has to be saved if the condition is true and You do some pushing and pushing and loading and unloading And so in the else branch there's more work to do So you have the comparison is Is 16 greater or less than Greater than 16 or equal and if that is the case and shift and wow so here's some more work to do you can already see that Register one and register three So you don't push the values on the stack, but you put them and registers So this is not easy to understand and So what you can also see here is that in our cortex you can You can't insert a constant into the end buffet and command but But you can use shift use shift with command constant and In the end you have to tidy up So far this has been no problem because the last element was always returned But now you have all these shifts and moving And now we need and that is why the highest element of the stack is not the element which is also in the register and Now the stack is in a state which is not in a state according to the canonical stack model, so you have to Bring the stack back into a canonical state But you can already see that You can you already can do all these operations without the stack and However, this compiler does not look ahead and it's always is therefore limited in its capabilities and It doesn't really take into account the control structures and branching So I've shown you all examples and I wish you a happy new year And I would have happy to hear you hear from real via email my email addresses on the slides


The core outcome set standards for development, COS-STAD, project has established 11 minimum standards to be followed by COS developers when planning their projects and by users when deciding whether a COS has been developed using reasonable methods. These standards include the scope of the COS, the stakeholders involved in its development, and the consensus process used to reach agreement among them. This article was authored by Jamie J. Kirkham, Catherine Davis, Douglas G. Altman and others.


The objective of U.S. Army research and development is to develop new weapons and equipment to support the individual American soldier. As never before in history, the future of your army depends today on its research and development program. The battle of brains and pencils and blueprints of imagination and innovation is being waged in laboratories and industrial plants across the nation. The Army's research and development program covers many areas. There must be greater mobility on the ground and in the air. The need for increased firepower is being met with weapons that are smaller, lighter and more potent. For command and control, better communications are required. The modern Army needs and must have improved logistical support that is more responsive and flexible to match fluid battlefields. With each technological advance, the importance of the individual soldier increases. Thus the Army research and development program is concerned primarily with this soldier. Research and development is constantly striving to give the American soldier every advantage in any future combat. Not only must this soldier be better trained, but he must be able to exist in the severe environment of nuclear or chemical attack. To show some accomplishments thus far, as well as new concepts being tested, here is a special progress report from the files of the Office of the Chief of Research and Development, Department of the Army. The courier, designed as the forerunner of a series of outer space communication satellites, was developed under the technical direction of the Army Signal Corps. Its electronic equipment is designed to use frequencies in the ultra-high range never before used for satellite communication. This frequency band has the advantage of being free from man-made signals and natural disturbances such as magnetic storms which can blanket the lower frequencies. Therefore the satellite equipment is furnished by miniature batteries charged by thousands of solar cells which convert solar energy into electricity when the satellite is in sunlight. The Army Courier was launched in October 1960 at Cape Canaveral, Florida. During its operational period, the Courier satellite relayed millions of words by teletypewriter voice signals and for the first time actively relayed photo facsimile through outer space. Commands to and communications from the satellite were coded to avoid unauthorized use of its capabilities during this experimental phase. Courier is known principally as a delayed repeater, meaning it stores information until commanded to transmit rather than relaying it directly. In addition, during some 89 orbits when the satellite was in view of two ground stations, messages were transmitted instantaneously from one station to the other, proving the feasibility of this direct relay mode of communications. This 28-foot antenna automatically locks on and tracks the satellite when it comes within range. When in full operation, Courier is capable of receiving and sending approximately 72,000 words a minute. The information received is stored on tape recorders in the satellite and later transmitted to the next station. In the Courier test, communications were established with two ground stations, one in Puerto Rico and the other at Fort Monmouth. Several Couriers could greatly relieve the currently crowded radio spectrum and avoid the inherent limitations of trans-oceanic cables. Moreover, Courier would not interfere with present television and radio transmissions which are on much lower frequencies. The results of this program, coupled with those of the Army's more advanced communications satellite, ADVENT, may ultimately revolutionize worldwide communications. The Sargent is a solid fuel guided missile. The Sargent system was designed and developed to meet a wide variety of environmental conditions. It will replace the corporal. The launching station, completely integrated, is mounted on a single vehicle. With such mobility, the Sargent may take up its firing position in any practical location. The launching station is powered by a self-contained turbine generator set. Hydraulic lifting and leveling is controlled by a single man from one point. Emplacement of the launching station can be accomplished in a matter of minutes. The launching station even carries its own crane for lifting the missile sections out of their containers. The Sargent is an all-weather missile in transit and storage as well as in operation. These components, now arriving at the launching site, were checked out for functional dependability in another part of the battalion area. Sequential assembly begins with the rocket motor section, with its solid propellant. This is the heaviest section. Next is the guidance section containing the electric power units, the inertial guidance system components, and the hydraulic drag brake system. The forebody section contains either a nuclear or a non-nuclear warhead and associated arming and fusing devices. Length of the missile is 34.5 feet, the diameter 31 inches. The four interchangeable control surface assemblies lock in place without tools. Electric connections are made automatically as soon as the assemblies are locked in place. When the missile has been assembled on the launching station, all personnel except the firing set operators evacuate the immediate area. The Sargent is fired from a remote control position. It operates in all weather conditions, delivers a powerful tactical punch, arrives on target at better than the speed of sound, and has a range far exceeding conventional artillery. The Army is researching the military use of air flotation vehicles, machines without conventional wheels, axles, transmissions, clutches, or the usual brakes. Ground effect machines such as this flying scooter operate close to the ground, supported by a cushion of air. In the scooter, the left-handle bar has a throttle control for a small seven-horsepower Nelson engine. Air is drawn in by a fan system and directed down and out around the base of the scooter. This lifts the vehicle approximately three inches off the ground. The highly maneuverable flying scooter weighs only 300 pounds. The user controls movements by shifting his weight in the direction of travel. The flying scooter is one of two machines constructed by the Forestall Research Center of Princeton University for Army research and development. The same principles are used in the flying donut, but with more refinements. The single-seat cockpit has a conventional aircraft stick. Lift and propulsion are provided through a ducted propeller. A foot-operated rudder control turns the donut by swiveling a smaller propeller mounted on the rear. The main propeller is driven by a 55-horsepower engine, which produces a lift of approximately six inches. When the rudder control is activated, the tail propeller turns the machine in either direction while running or hovering. The flying donut has moved at speeds up to 25 miles per hour. The ground effect program also includes two off-the-shelf Curtis Wright aircars. This one seats four or has a payload capacity of 1,000 pounds. Simple controls permit the operator to maneuver the vehicle in any direction by controlling airflow through adjustable vanes. Two 180-horsepower aircraft engines power the ducted propellers for speeds up to 35 miles per hour with an operating range of two hours. Air performs the important functions of propulsion, suspension, and braking. The machine is capable of turning on its own axis. The normal lift for the aircar is approximately six to nine inches above the ground. Since ground effect machines move on a cushion of air, they can travel over any unobstructed terrain, water, mud, swamp, ice, or snow. With this research program, the Army truly takes a step into a new field which may offer improved surface mobility. With its latest solid fuel missiles, the Pershing underwent a successful test firing less than two years after contracts were awarded. Subsequent firings continued to reaffirm the increased reliability of this advanced missile system. Assembly of the first Pershing in the R&D test firing program was completed in November 1959. Individual components had been subjected to rigorous testing before being installed. During assembly, the missile was given thorough quality assurance tests. The development test firing also featured testing of prototype items of ground support equipment such as this transporter erector launcher, or TEL for short, which has proved very effective at its job of elevating and launching the Pershing missile. The ground transport vehicle for the Pershing, the XM474, gives the missile system the kind of field mobility required in modern combat. The XM474 is the prime mover for all major units in the Pershing ground mode of tactical mobility. In tactical employment, as demonstrated here, the missile will be carried and directed by the TEL mounted on the tracked vehicle. It takes only one minute to erect the missile. The Pershing is a two-stage solid fuel replacement for the liquid fuel redstone. Moreover, the Pershing is smaller and lighter than the redstone and will ultimately have greater range. The TEL can quickly return the missile to the carrying position should a change in the tactical situation require a shift in firing sites. February 1960 at Canaveral, Pershing's first launching proceeded smoothly. The control system performed satisfactorily throughout powered flight. The propulsion system operated normally through burnout, which occurred as scheduled. Missile velocity at burnout was close to that predicted. In the initial and subsequent firings, the Pershing ballistic missile and its ground support equipment successfully accomplished all their primary functions. Helicopters may be employed to great tactical advantage when flown at low speeds and close to the ground where their vulnerability is reduced. The Army Navy Instrumentation Program, called ANIF, is an effort to retain this flight capability in zero visibility conditions and still avoid obstructions. Be able to navigate and take off and land safely. A basic aim of ANIF is to simplify piloting by reducing the number of aircraft instruments and the training required to interpret them. ANIF has developed a display in which a grid representing the Earth's surface indicates the plane's attitude and orientation. This graphic representation is far easier to interpret than existing instruments. When the psychological and operational advantages of this concept were proved, computers were designed to produce flight effects in a helicopter simulator. The only one of its kind, it produces all the sensations of real flight but permits more accurate and economical study of the performance and reactions of a large number of pilots. The computer generates a display with a grid to represent the Earth. Terrain features that may be potential dangers are stylized. This is the forerunner of more advanced displays which will use high-resolution radar to reveal other air traffic and terrain obstructions and provide a map display as well. A flyable research model was also built and installed in a helicopter. Its purpose was to accumulate preliminary data on the ANIF display concept in actual flight. As the helicopter maneuvers, its true aspect in relation to the ground is portrayed by a grid projected on a screen. But the screen is transparent. When visibility is good, the pilot can see the ground through the display. If visibility is lost, the grid still shows the aspect of the craft in relation to the ground. The feasibility of the ANIF concept has been proved. Its use can increase the effectiveness of air support, not only for helicopters but also the Army's fixed-wing aircraft. The natural, easy-to-understand display methods will reduce pilot training problems. Additional research for more refined systems will be continued through the coordination of Army-Navy effort and the contributions of several hundred American industrial firms. Tests of the improved Nike Hercules system are currently underway at White Sands Missile Range to prove its technical capability of intercepting ballistic missiles. The test you are about to witness is the intercept of our early-type corporal missile by a Nike Hercules. The corporal, which is a field Army-type ballistic missile, stands 45 feet high, is 30 inches in diameter, and has a range of 75 nautical miles. The nuclear-capable Nike Hercules used for this test will carry a high-explosive warhead. New radars have been added to the basic Nike Hercules ground guidance equipment to permit the system to acquire and track high-performance targets. Target ready? Target countdown? Fire. An Army civilian team at the Nike Hercules site, 50 miles away, will acquire the target only 30 inches in diameter and more than 10 miles up. Target acquired. Target tracked. Fire. On the basis of tests already conducted, the improved Nike Hercules system shows a technical capability of intercepting and destroying enemy ballistic missiles long before they can land on their intended targets. The modern individual mask is highly efficient in protecting the respiratory tract from biological and chemical agents that can be used in warfare. But V-type nerve gas and mustard gas produce casualties by contact with the skin. Masks are not sufficient. Specialty treated combat clothing has been developed to protect against these chemical agents. But even with their use, further precautions may be necessary to prevent casualties. For this purpose, a decontamination and treatment kit is being developed. It consists of a bag of dusting powder and a dye indicator. Crushing the dusting bag breaks a capsule containing the dye. Needing mixes the powder and dye. When dusted on exposed clothing or weapons, the powder neutralizes any small drops of the nerve gases or vesicants that may be present. If larger drops are present, they are revealed by a color change of the dye indicator. These spots must be treated another way. The kit includes metal patches. They are applied to prevent nerve gas or mustard from penetrating to the skin. Also, cloths are provided for washing and swabbing skin areas with a different decontaminating agent moistened with water. Decontaminant is also applied to weapons and personal equipment to prevent contamination from handling. The kit can be used for decontaminating mustard as well as the nerve gases. The M17 protective field mask has been improved to provide better vision and easier breathing. With no external canister, it's less cumbersome to the wearer. A similar design, including hood, is used for armor personnel, but it has an added feature for comfort and efficiency. The canister in the mask connects to a large central canister in the tank. A quick release permits dismounting without loss of mask protection. These new developments will make it possible to live and fight in a toxic environment. The M88 is a recently developed full-track recovery vehicle capable of sustained speeds up to 30 miles per hour. It can perform rescue and recovery operations of disabled tanks weighing up to 56 tons. The M88 was designed to include the best features of previous model recovery vehicles as well as many new features. There is a crew compartment armored against small arms fire, medium artillery shell fragments, and anti-tank mines. The equipment includes a spade dozer, two winches, power takeoff, and a modified A-frame boom. The boom is powered and controlled hydraulically and can safely hold a 25 ton load. The main winch has a capacity of 45 tons with a single line. The M88 is designed to operate primarily with the M48 tank series and the new M60 tank, but it can also, if needed, support armor units with other types of vehicles. To simplify ordinance maintenance and repair, this recovery vehicle uses many parts in common with current tank series. This aluminum hulled amphibious cargo carrier recently standardized is a versatile lightweight vehicle employing the M116 chassis. In snow conditions equal to the worst found at Arctic test stations, the 70-200 pound carrier has excellent mobility. Its snow performance is due to a low ground pressure and the aggressive action of the tracks. In addition to accommodating 11 men with equipment, the carrier will tow 12 skiers. It has a water cooled V8 engine and four speed hydromatic transmission. Clutch brake steering is used for soft terrain, geared steering for normal road travel. With a capacity cargo of one and one-half tons, top road speed is more than 40 miles per hour, cruising range about 300 miles. The new carrier enters water without special preparation. Although the aluminum hull is watertight, two bilge pumps are provided to handle casual water entry. At the rated payload of 3,000 pounds, it has 14 inches freeboard. The vehicle tracks work efficiently as propellers. Water speed is approximately four miles per hour. Transportable in a C-124 aircraft, the agile full-tracked carrier is a replacement for the World War II weasel. In May 1960, the new long-endurance unmanned aerial surveillance system, the SD-5, was sent to the drone test facility near Yuma, Arizona for its first powered flight. The SD-5 is part of an all-weather system being developed to give the field army greater capabilities in aerial surveillance and tactical mapping. The drone is constructed primarily of molded fiberglass, which makes the airframe lightweight, yet strong and highly resistant to impact damage. The drone's length is 36 feet 8 inches. Wing span 24 feet 8 inches. Obeying its electronic controls, the drone will normally fly to and from its mission area at treetop level. Immediately after the launching, the booster falls away and a jet engine then powers the drone's flight. The SD-5 will rise to higher altitudes in accordance with its preset programmed course. It is also equipped with terrain avoidance radar, which ensures it against impact damage during low altitude flight. In this initial test program, however, the drone contained only interim electronics. Range instrumentation was used for tracking and control. Later test flights will gradually include operational electronics for navigation, control, and other functions. For distances beyond radar lines of sight, the SD-5 follows a programmed course and can switch to a preset alternate course if necessary. It will be equipped to carry interchangeable packages of radar, infrared, and photographic sensors. Surveillance data from these devices can be permanently recorded in the drone and can also be transmitted back to friendly lines during flight. Upon completion of a mission, recovery parachutes are automatically released according to a programmed flight plan or ground station command. Then large rubberized pneumatic cushions are released and inflated to soften the landing impact. Thus the drone and its valuable sensors remain intact and can immediately be prepared for another mission. This new unmanned aerial surveillance system will offer the Field Army Commander significant new capabilities in combat surveillance and in providing target information for the Army's long-range missile systems. Your Army's research and development program is a continuing effort to help ensure the survival of this nation. Army industry teamwork is vital to the accomplishment of the Army research and development mission. To maintain superiority in our military arsenal, new ideas are essential. New weapons must be developed and perfected to meet new requirements. In these days of explosive advances in science and technology, Army research and development plays a major role in maintaining America's military supremacy.


So, welcome to CNCF Consig Contributor Strategy Meeting. As usual, we are under the CNCF Code of Conduct, so be excellent to each other. This one is getting organized a little last minute, so if anybody has additional items for discussion, please add them to the agenda there. Let me paste it into the chat again. And with that, let's get started with discussion. We do not have any new people here, so it seems like we can skip the round of introductions since we all see each other fairly frequently. Oh, hey, Karen. Hello. Hello. Sorry. I do have a voice. Thanks for... Yep. So, okay, we're just getting started. If you have anything additional for the agenda, please add it. And so, introductions being skipped, let's move on. So one of the things that's come up in... We had this discussion... Started this discussion on contributor growth working group, but it really needs to be in the main meeting here, which is... We're busy generating a lot of content via contributor strategy. And one of the questions is, what is our publication path for the various kinds of content? I mean, for the templates, it's obvious, right? We just update the main branch of the template's repository and anything that's in the main branch is basically done. Am I correct with that, Carolyn? Yeah. Well, I mean, we haven't published anything yet. Okay. So, Wednesday, we have a process out there. But for other stuff like feedback and additional material and requirements, the various advisory documents, in terms of, hey, here's how to select project. Here's ways to select project leadership, et cetera, that we've been busy writing. You know, what's the path to go from work draft slash work in progress to... This is a official resource for the CNCF, and none of that has been defined. Josh, you just made me realize that project template repo was made before master main switch. So, this afternoon, I'll fix that. Okay. So, just a note for project, for the repo switches in general, I think GitHub is going to officially switch that stuff over, starting on October 1st. We were actually talking about this in the GitHub management meeting in Kubernetes earlier today. And, yes, you should switch the template. Yeah. Yeah. I just don't have anything in it. I think we just made... I mean, it has, like, what do we mean stuff? I think it's just we made the repo before... You saying I'm going to switch to default? Is that what it is on October 1st? No, it'll be switched. The default will become main, as of October 1st. Yeah. But that's only for net new repositories, not existing ones. So, we want to make sure that that's changed for the template. Perfect. All right. So, we're going to switch this up again before we start making PRs. So, do we want to actually talk about how we transition documentation? Yeah. So, we had also mentioned this little discussion from working group naming in Kubernetes. Our general idea was, at least for our documentation specifically, was providing a set of recommendations and a very controlled space. So, whether it be a repo, subdirectory, somewhere that will eventually be proposed to some body in the CNCF, maybe that, maybe we call that the TOC, and then at the point at which that higher body approves the documentation for use across the project or foundation, we'd move it into somewhere more official. So, maybe that is contribute. Maybe that is the CNCF foundation repo, I think the foundation's name of it. So, there are a few options, but we do want to make sure that the documentation that we say is under review, do we want to have a separate under review section that eventually gets graduated or a set of decisions to potentially make, like these are in review, these are newly proposed, these are graduated decisions, and now live in some canonical place. Yeah. And that's something, particularly for requirements material, that very definitely needs to have an official approval chain, I mean, advice is advice, and it's really, it's more important for it just to be noted which items are finished rather than which items are approved if you follow me, because it's not like, you know, it's not like we're going to cause major political problems with general advice, but knowing the TOC, I will say we will get a lot further if we come to them and we suggest a specific path than say, where do you want us to put this? Yeah, for sure. So, and I'm not sure what makes sense because I feel like we don't, like, we don't already have a place within the CNCF where this sort of content would live that I know of. Well, I mean, you could always put it in like the TOC repo under the SIGs. I could probably go under process, but use more words about what kind of content we are thinking about.  And within contributor growth, we have one on how to build a contributor ladder.  The requirements would at least right now go under the TOC directory because that's where the sort of general requirements documents are. The concern about that would be that those would need to turn into directories instead of single documents because right now they're single documents. Right now there's this Omnibus document that is project maturity. I forget exactly what the file name is. Within CNCF that covers the whole maturity cycle. Yeah, and it doesn't make sense to make that single document 150 pages long in order to include all the backing material that we will eventually generate. So, you know, so we'll need to approach the TOC with the idea that hey, this should actually be directory with multiple different documents. In the meantime, couldn't just go in like your own repo? Don't you have a repo? Yes, we do. Yeah, then like work in there and then have the proposal process kind of move out to the TOC when you're ready. It's already in our own repo. Okay. My, this whole discussion is what happens next. Ah, so when, when, when you are ready to be able to publish things. Um, if you want, well, okay, I'll let discussion continue because I have like a possible place to be able to surface this for. So, I guess for the, so because it's in the repo, it's technically published already. What we want is the once it has been approved or ratified or, you know, becomes law, where should it live? Right. Maybe that's TOC. Do we feel that the TOC repo is the most representative of where we want this information to be? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I feel like, didn't know, wasn't there some discussion of a contribute repo? Does that actually exist? Yeah. So there's a contribute repo. There's a foundation repo. I feel like some of the things that we're proposing are not, are maybe not either of those. Maybe this is a new repo. Put our stuff in the contribute repo. I already approached people about this. Yeah. I'll also say this, that it's kind of. It's kind of awkward and undiscoverable to have just a bunch of random markdown files in a GitHub repo. Yeah. I have something that's. Collected together and actually. Published like a website as opposed to. Like I said, just. Here's some markdown files have fun reading them. You'll never find them if they're just randomly in the TOC repo, unless you are already heavily involved in everything I knew where they were to begin with. Yeah. So I would say. Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean, if you look at what the to do group has done with some of their guides, they, you know, they. They're all in the repo and they've got, you know, that's where all the development happened, but then they have like a guides section on the website that has all of the, all of the guides in a place where you can easily find them and you don't have to dig through our repository. So I would say that. Markdown is easiest for a lot of us just code contribution wise, but there's nothing stopping us from, and we have resources on the CNCF level to help us create websites via Netlify that can be attached to the repo. So. Yeah, I was like bashing Markdown. I was just saying. Random files in a listing on GitHub is more what I was talking about. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So. Oh, I had one more thing about when we're having documents. That aren't published already. I would suggest me, but we also put something in the document itself saying that it's not. Published and done yet. It's still draft. Just having it in a folder on our GitHub repo. This is the folder path is draft. I think it's pretty subtle for some people and they may find it and then think it's real. And not know. Our convention that that wallets in a folder called draft, like it's pretty easy to overlook a URL like that. They be. Useful on our part to put a. One line header at the top of these files and say, this is a draft. This is a whatever it's pending. It's not. It's not really yet. It's not published. It's not. It's not. The. Of course, I guarantee that that ends up with a circumstance where when we move it to wherever it. Gets published to a site. That one of our constant tasks will be, oh wait, we need to remove the draft header. The doc directory did to say draft docs. And something like that. That way it's kind of in one place. And then all the docs we put underneath it. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I think it's suggested like in review and draft, but like if it's in the, if it's in the directory link, it's a lot more likely to get missed versus inside of the document. Right. Yeah, you're just relying on people to know our own internal things. Like we all know that it's a draft and it doesn't mean anything and hasn't been adopted. But to someone who stumbled upon it. They don't really know how official it is. Like I'm just trying to convey like, I see this stuff all the time when I'm trying to watch what's happening in the TOC repo and understanding how official things are and where it's going and like, when is it going to happen? And just having something written down in like, full sentences somewhere in the doc is super helpful. So I think what might be cool is that as we publish things into this new fangled place that it's going to live, that we start removing them from the repo as well. Right. And we can maybe tabulate a, like these are lists of decisions that we've made. Right. And this is where the final decision guidance lives. Right. That way there's no duplication of content. And like, yeah, we have to, we'll have to strip a draft header once, but like, I think we can live with that. Yeah. Well, I don't think it needs to be anything more than italicized text at the top of the document that says this document is currently under review. Yeah. So, okay. So I guess my question is, do we want to propose basically a new site for this or do we want to propose that this lives somewhere under cncf.io? Both. I think the, I think cncf, I think with a new Netlify site, it should be fairly easy to, if cncf.io is already Netlified, which it probably is, to stick a link into a different repo reference. Right. So that content can live in one repo, but it can, the site can link out to it. So I think we do some of that across Kubernetes already as well. Yeah. I think it can just be its own Netlify site, but then a different self domain or something like that. Right. Yeah. Should we bike shed over names? We don't have any content yet. Yeah. The, I was trying to come up with some really tortured version of cncf contribute that would maybe involve a numeral somewhere, but the seven, seven, seven, seven, seven. So, yeah, I mean, the other thing I'm thinking about, and maybe Amy can weigh in here is that there might be some painful restrictions on putting anything under cncf.io slash. Sub domain is going to be a lot easier. That'll take like zero time. Getting something up on cncf.io proper is going to be challenging. So what about just proposing that we use contribute.cncf.io? Yeah. We can do like a redirect towards like whatever we want for that. It can go towards Netlify. It can do like something like that. Ihor, is there anything in here that I would, that I am not aware of that would cause this to be a problem? No, not sure. Again, as you mentioned, it's way easier to set up the dedicated sub domain for something at cncf.io and to have it redirected, or to use the existing contribute.cncf.io sub domain, but it will be even difficult and I'm not sure, completely I'm not sure if there is a strong purpose to do something under cncf.io slash something. Okay. I'm good with the sub domain. The cncf.io already just points to the repo, so we can figure out how to be able to, like wherever else you want this to be. This is me here is to try to set up the GitHub pages, which are pointing to the contribute repo. And in this case, this can also solve both things. Steven mentioned it's easier for folks to contribute. If you are contributing something, people have experience with Git, so it's easier to contribute content. We are Git, we are GitHub as a code. And if this repo is set up as the GitHub pages, it will appear there automatically. So that's probably the easiest way to handle this. Okay. At some point I want to bike shed because I'm not sure that contribute maybe is representative of what we, what the content is. And that also already points to that other contribute repo and not to the contributor strategy, say, group. Yeah. So like my question would be like the, what's the, is there an eventual intention for this? I see that like right now it's kind of a listing of the, just the projects, right? Do we, what I'm imagining is the, the CNCF version of the community repo, right? The streets of the Kubernetes community repo. Carolyn is saying, Yeah, you're free to update. So submit a PR space or open the issues in the contributor repo. If you want to see some different content there, or if you want to submit a direct PR, specific proposals. So please do it. Welcome to do it. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. Wait. So are we going to use contribute that CNCF.io? Are we not? It sounds like initially we're not, but maybe there is a point at which the content converges. So where would we put it if not there? I mean, if you're going to bike, should you have to actually make a proposal? I'm thinking like some of it is, it's guidelines, some of it is advisory, like I worry about choosing a name that is, like, I think the names should be descriptive enough that we know what we're getting out of it, walking into it, right? If someone ends up in our repo, I think it is valuable for us to put something of a note that the content herein is advisory and not officially ratified by some CNCF body, yada, yada, yada for things that we have, you know, things that we have discussed on the TSE level go here. I don't know what to call here yet. We can cross-link, we can explicitly mention the contributory strategy or within the contributory of the repo readme, so, like, just to mention that there is some extra advisory content available at the contributory strategy repo that you can, you can also be interested in. If you don't want to put everything into the same place tonight. Alternatively, we could rename our repo to something and let our repo content kind of shift around the directories and let our repo content be, you know, if you want to see drafts of the things that we're working on, go here. If you want to see things that have been officially approved by the TOC, go here. So, so I'm still stuck on the where is that second go here? The go here, if it was to just be our repo, the go here would just be a sub-director in the repo. No, we've already established that putting stuff in a repo is bad. Well, this repo are specifically our repo. No, no, no, we've already established that final content should live on some sort of an indexable website and not just in a GitHub repo. But what we're also talking about is creating a Netlify site so that that content is indexable. So that Netlify site content would live in a repo. So we're still talking about repos. We're just talking about a different presentation mechanism. Right. Right. But I'm asking what is the Netlify site? Because the suggestion was contributed at cnsf.io. You said I don't like that, but you didn't have a counter proposal. The only reason I don't like it is because it currently points to a list of all of the projects, right? So if we are going to decide that the published content should live in the Contribute repo, then totally fine. But are we sure that Contribute is the is the name that we want it to be? I don't know. The more unsure I am about that, because to me, you think about the Contribute.md files to see on GitHub, that's about how to contribute to a project. And that's kind of what this Contribute repo already has. So are you interested in contributing to one of the cnsf hosted projects? Here's a big list of projects you can contribute to. And what we're talking about more is, I don't know, sort of... I have a project. What do I do? Yeah. Yeah. We can easily mention that as well. So if you work through the Contribute repo, in a bottom, you'll notice that we are not on the mentioning cnsf projects there, but also some different ways of how can you contribute to cnsf ecosystem. So the original intention of this repo was to just to have the single point of reference and how can you be useful in the community. You can start with contributing to projects. You can also contribute to at the TLC level, like to be the TLC contributor. You can contribute to the community, to the ecosystem, like run in the made-ups, run in the community groups, be it an ambassador, and so on. So the original goal of developing this repo is just to have all the useful links and how to get started with this in a simple place. It's not only about projects, it's about all the useful links. And we can definitely restructure that if you have different suggestions of better plan on how to restructure it. Yeah. So I think that a lot of the content is going to be geared towards maintainers or people looking for maintainership. We had talked about maintainers.cncf.io before. Right now that redirects to just the Google Sheet. And I think that a link to the Google Sheet could just as easily live in this new repo. Yeah, because a lot of our guides are going to be more about how to set up governance, how to measure whether you're successful or not. It's not really how to contribute to things. It's really how to set up your project for success from a contribution standpoint, which I feel is different. Getting back to what Josh said, I'm not proposing it. I can't think of anything better. This is my problem. I feel it contributes not right, but I'm struggling to find something better. So let's do maintainers unless people have objections. I'm going to caution against that because maintainers.cncf.io was baked into some other stuff as a redirect to that Google Sheet. Sorry. How badly baked? Enough. Definitely baked. Right, something else. Yeah. That's a really good one. Well, so part of the reason that we end up hearing a lot about it is that we're really maintainers focused. Do you want to try to be able to look at how to be able to build community? Thinking about project.cncf.io? Maintainers is already claimed. Sorry. Let's find something else. I mean, but previously we had discussed that like, is maintainers even super useful having this displayed as a Google Sheet, right? Ideally, as a maintainer, as I'm onboarding a new project for thecncf, hopefully the process, I'd imagine the process eventually getting to simpler points where you're putting, you know, you're essentially putting stuff into a YAML file. Love YAML, right? And running some script and that, you know, and that's generating a, you know, that's generating a new list of maintainers or updated list of maintainers. Think the, you know, running make generate on the Kubernetes community repo, right? When you update the six that YAML, right? This sheet is not super useful and it will continue to get long. Other reasons why the sheet needs to be under maintainers. Let's, let's move on. Yeah. Okay. The, or more importantly, do we really want this to potentially get hung up on thecncf slash LF website team doing a bunch of cleanup? No. But since back to, back to your point, someone suggest something better. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the problem is that some of the obvious ones, which would be like project management are awkward. Yeah. So I think we should go to our respective corners and strategize about it. And let's maybe move on because we've got like other updates. We can bike shed maybe in the next meeting. Okay. Take this on Slack, et cetera. Yeah. The later games. Just, just to close the discussion with contributor sorry for traction judge. So if you, if you have any suggestions on that on the currently existing report was the person who originally was building it is from mostly from scratch. So I'm happy to collaborate with you if you have any specific items for what can we commend her. So just let me know. Sounds good. Yeah. The. Okay. So. Working group updates. I see that somebody's typing stuff in for contributor growth. So do you want to say that out loud? No, no, first not. Um, I've submitted a template to our project template. If people could take a look at it. Um, again, the goal for these is we. Stop doing get, I'm sorry, Google docs and we just start doing PRs for everything. And, um, if people want to do more changes on top of them, we'll encourage polar class instead of. I'm mostly asking one person to do the edits for them. Um, and then, uh, Paris is working on. Yeah, Paris is here. She's working on community management documents. Um, like how to contribute recruit contributors. Um, and I'm working on. Taking the good first issue guy that I wrote for Kubernetes. And. Refreshing it and making it not specific to Kubernetes workflows. Uh, so we can put it up at the CNCF level. This is good. So Paris has. Dropped in a bunch of stuff. About maintainer circle. Um, Should I speak a ghost for her? Yes. Yeah. If you actually understand what. That first item is about. Because I don't quite. So actually Amy might have more context than I would. I can speak to some of this. So I rise up out of the deep again. So, um, here's the thing. Paris wants to be able to actually do a survey about. Um, you know, being able to get. People to register for the maintainer circle piece in here. I have looked at the calendars and there is a lot going on in here. So like adding in another meeting is probably not going to be as relevant. My suggestion was. Taking one of the normal contributor strategy. Meetings and. Putting maintainer circle in here. And correct me. Was. Was this actually the plan in the first place? This was the plan. Yes. Um, so not. Not under the guise of maintainer circle specifically, but an opportunity for maintainers to. Come by and ask us questions if they had it, which I guess is the same as maintainer circle, right? So, um, so yeah, we should, we should do that. And the thing is she wanted to be able to have registration. In order for it to work for China, we need to be able to do it through a survey monkey. That is the question in here. Okay. I say maybe we just start doing it. As, you know, as one of our meetings, if we, because we can slow roll a survey and say, like, if this time does not work for you, then maybe we can discuss another one, but I think we should at least try it in our meetings first before. Their goal here is to be able to do like breakout for like 10 people breakout groups based on the amount of. Frankly, people that we get in these meetings, I don't know that breakout meetings are going to be as compelled. I read exactly like, yeah, I can turn it on for these meetings. That's fine. But, you know, I don't know if it's meaningful. That's all. Yeah. I think we, I think we just want to start doing it to, to be honest. Yeah. Um, I will, I will put remarks in the doc so that my comments are more clear. Yeah. I mean, one thing I'll say for this particular meeting time slot is not terrifically friendly to Europe. Don is up late here and it's well, not super late, but it's still dinner time and, and it's definitely not friendly to Asia. So yeah, we'd want to have some around the clock, you know, things, different time slots. Yeah. So, you know, what could happen is a U. U. S. East, a Mia time slot and a U. S. West, a pack time slot, and we can probably find some balance there. I think that's, I think that at least starting in this time slot, we'll get, you know, allow us to key in on some things that we might want to tweak if we expand to multiple meetings. But I would agree with the whole, like Thursday is the funniest, like overly stacked meeting day for me. And I'm sure everyone's schedules are kind of crazy. So like less meetings are better. But yeah, we do want to accommodate, but we should only try to accommodate if the need is actually there. So I'm going to actually have to drop off this call. Cause an emergency just came up for me. All right. I hope everything's okay, man. Yep. Yep. Go for it. All right. So next up. So yeah, it says Paris is going to look at chatting with Sarah Novotny on some values and principles topics, as well as Tim Hawken on review or maintainership. There was one more topic up for discussion that we had initially raised, which was the, which was talking about naming protocol for various projects. I think this was posed as potentially our first topic for maintainer circle. So I will put that on the notes too. Do other people have thoughts? Cool. Cool. Cool. So if you do have, if you do have thoughts on potential topics, maybe we'll spin up a separate doc or something in the repo where people can request topics for maintainer circle and we can do something like that. Oh, I had a topic. Yeah. Um, it's not a fun topic though, but I hear this is actually more than any of these other things that we're talking about currently. A lot of stuff we talk about. Adds to the time commitment to maintainers. I'm not sure if you can hear this, but I was going to let me talk to, especially this year has been saying that they are over. Subscribe. Essentially. And, um, they're looking for ways to keep the project going. Um, and just kind of deal right now. Um, without. Hurting the project. Right. They're dealing with the backlog. They're trying to not lose people, but at the same time. They're trying to keep features going or deal with security issues that are coming up and just all the various things. And it's like, we can't. Maintain the level of like. Fostering new contributors and doing all the various things we need to do that our. Group actually talks about as being really important good stuff to do at the same time. Cause, uh, There's a lot going on and there's a lot being asked of maintainers right now. So how do you go into like. Like, Yeah. I guess. And take care of your project and not trash a project while you're taking care of things. I guess. That's what I'm hearing people talk about. No, I, I love it. And I feel it too. Um, you know, I feel like every, every interrupt that we get, like sometimes you've got your schedule in line. Like it's perfect. You're like, I know exactly what I'm going to do. Like I'm going to be doing my entire thing out of the way. Um, and yeah. And it's usually never just one. Um, so, and you know, when this happens across multiple projects and different venues and foundations, it's, it's, yeah, it's super stressful. Um, so I, yeah. Let's, let's talk. Let's talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I'd love to like support. Support people with this. Cause this is like. This is really. This is pretty hard to figure out. I mean, like, doings well, I had to, like, set down my project for a couple of months and that really sucked and it hurt the project and I don't know how to have done that better. I have put in a word that I think describes this, and I think it's being able to build our projects for more resiliency. Yeah, yeah. So I think being able to, like, start from that as a base to be able to say, what would it be like if we were considering resiliency as we were kind of looking at schedules and roadmaps and kind of like how, how could I actually make this easier for everyone, including me, because I love this baby little project and I wanted to succeed. But I also understand that my availability is really inconsistent right now. Given that, what do we do next? Yeah, I love that consistent availability. Yes. I think, yeah, I think one of the trickiest parts of this is, is, it becomes another interrupt, right, it becomes something that you have to like sit down and consider, at least for SIG release and maybe this is actually a discussion for the time that we discussed this right. But, you know, for SIG release, we recently brought on two new technical leads and a program manager, right, and I think, you know, it's the first time that we've done, or people have done a program manager like embedded in a SIG. So there are growing pains and there's like an additional, there's an additional overhead for like interrupts bringing people up to speed so that they can help you shift, shift the workload right. And it's like, it's like, yes, I know I need to do this thing or I know we as maintainers need to do this thing but right now it's another meeting or it's another set of meetings before we get to some reasonable outcome, right. Totally. I think a lot of that is also looking at like what are the priorities for the project like what could fall off and no one will like no various will fall. And what things can we push off towards, hey, perhaps in spring, we could. And I guess I'm using more of like the program manager, like, expectation of, if we didn't do this, what would happen. Yeah, no, it's my it's actually one of my new favorite questions like, is this important right now. Do we need to myself that every day.  Right. And having an idea of like what we were actually going to be able to deliver that comes from being able to aggregate the ideas of multiple maintainers right and have them deliver those things at on a certain timeline right so certainly you know for a large project like like Kubernetes. I'm finding that there has been more activity by having a local program manager or local PXM E type to help you with some of this stuff because I think that maintainers in general. If you show up and you do the work, you get the power. And that's, you know, that's how it happens kind of often. But you're not necessarily always the best positioned person to do that thing. Right.  Like, I'm not sure I signed up for that. And, you know, so there's there's a lot going on with with maintainers in general where they're wearing maybe five hats that could be, you know, delegated out, but also delegating out takes time. So yes, I think this is an excellent topic to talk about. Yay, I want to be in this meeting so bad. Alright, so we do. I mean like let's, let's hype it up. You know, it's, and we have to figure out times right and when we're officially going to kick these things off. So, that was Paris's question of when. Yeah, because we is, I think last we talked about what kickoff looks like. Well, let's just, there was, there was a wants to do something for, for keep gone and have that be like a kickoff event. But I think we should, I think we had talked about just getting started in September and look we blinked September is gone. We've got a couple different options here. You could track towards being able to take like the October 8 meeting for this particular group and saying man this is something we really want to do. You could promote it at the Tuesday, October 6 Toc meeting, and that kind of leads from there. And that that means that you don't have to have a lot of momentum in order to be able to make this work. But you can look at the 22nd of October, and that does like both of these things do get you something before cube con. I am just not sure about like the bandwidth that this group has. Yeah, I would lean towards something later. I would lean towards the 22nd meeting for myself, at least I will have limited ability to facilitate all of this are some of these things with like all of my attention because I'm also, that will be the point at which like cube con prep is already getting pretty going. So we're working on program review stuff right now. And it will only get deeper as as October goes on for me so assessment because I think we do not take the amount of time that keep con and the amount of energy that keep con even though it is virtual is still taking from from folks. Yeah. I don't have a good answer here.  We could be doing more to hype up the fact that we have a mailing list I think a lot of the discussions that could happen on the contributor strategy mailing list are currently still happening on the TOC list right so I think the TOC list becomes this kind of like garbage bucket for anything to potentially There are votes in there. No you are you are accurate in that we do want to be able to have the signal of this reach people in a way that is meaningful. Without, frankly, making another email for people to be able to deal with and that's the balance there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I am not combining this into cube con because the. I've been on the soapbox for four months but the idea of combining everything around whatever when this physically going to be in a place is not the same as trying to combine everything around virtual conference where we're sitting on video it's not it doesn't work. I actually checked our notes we decided last time not to do it cube con so. Yeah, good. However, there is a. I am going to use my chair hat for a second and poke into the content management schedule for cube con, because I believe we do have a session. So, strategically. Okay, okay, so that's. Okay, it's just a project paperwork one it looks like Carolyn, you don and Josh are on that. Okay, right. So, maybe nothing to do there I'm happy to. I would love to start something. I don't know what that something exactly looks like and I, but I do think it's fine to start something small and see at least get feedback. I don't have to worry about continuing to wait post cube con like we're going to blink and cube con will be upon us as as usual, but it is in November so there's a bit of time that we could be doing stuff with we wanted to. There's always a cube con you're either getting ready for recovering from it so at some point we just have to do it. Yeah, yeah. We're going to do the same way. We spent a time that works for this program and we launch it. Yeah, when it makes sense for the program and not not necessarily worry about keep on. So, so Amy the the next to see meeting post October 6 would be the 20th. So maybe spoken for as far as like to see meetings thing. Yeah, there's something in my mind about how like someone someone has claimed that one. Also, I don't know if a to see like I would, I would highlight the fact that you want to be able to do this in your sick updates for October the sixth, which is like this is me plugging you all to get your slides in the end. So just being able to like actually like highlighting that this is something that you want to do, but not being sure about when exactly would be a good time for it might actually get some good input from to see. Okay. Alright, so, yeah, we'll plan to plug on the October 6 meeting. We tried to do something not for the eighth but the 22nd, at least so we can have one more meeting here where we have all the chairs and attendance, potentially to I don't want to make this decision, you know, for everyone will note.  And that seems like a really easy conversation to have. Yeah, they're like, it's in me.  So if you say hey look we do the over subscribed maintainers as a conversation for the 22nd, you might get a lot of people showing up. Cool. You will. Yeah. Josh has returned. Josh, while you were going to be made decisions. Oh good. Yay. For any of them, because you weren't here. So good call. No, the recap, the conversation was really looking at the maintainer circle kind of planning on tracking towards the 22nd for that and the piece that is really kind of risen up as a possible topic is talking about over subscribed maintainers burnout and how do you take care of your project when you have inconsistent availability. Have I mischaracterized any of that anyone. Gorgeous. So the follow up is if you can put that into your slides for the TOC deck again October 6 dates and calendar are closer than they may appear. That would be lovely, because it'll get people excited and they know when to be able to come and have this conversation. So, all right, so I think we're happy here. And we should talk a little bit about governance before we leave. It's not not any momentous we're still churning through our content checklist. If we don't have anybody on the call who might be looking for something to do so I won't mention the unassigned items that we have So, I mean we're basically starting with all of the advisory documentation and then moving on to requirements and templates. The. So nobody's really working on the requirements or templates yet. Awesome. Do we have so we have six minutes left. I think we have six minutes off we've got six minutes. Is there any topic that someone would like to raise before we go. Oh, I submitted the proposal for our succession to at kubicon November. I haven't heard. Assume it's going to get accepted. One of the things that I'll have to follow up with the CNCF folks on is what I proposed is highly interactive. And I if we're using intrado as a platform, which is what I've been given to believe that we are highly interactive is not supported by intrado. And so we'll need to discuss how we would actually carry out the proposed event. This has come up and for other talks. So if you want to start in a thread with you. I'm going to call myself Nancy, a few others. If you have Constance's email, I can shoot it to you. Yeah. The. Okay. The. Yeah, because just the thing is because, you know, the way it's proposed, which is a project paperwork session, right, you know, let us help you with your requirements and project organization and stuff. What we need to cover is going to be very dependent on who shows up. And, you know, and this is the sort of session where if we have maintainers from six projects show up. That's a good showing. But we're not going to know advance whether these are mature projects looking at graduation or whether they are, you know, new projects looking to join the sandbox and what we want to talk about is going to be very different depending on who it is that shows up. And this is, yeah, this moves towards like, is it possible to do a recorded session style situation I would say, I would say, do this try to do this ahead of time because this is, again, this is coming up for for other talks. Right. Precieve the question get people to submit the kind of paperwork that they want to cover. Right. And then you have a basis for building the session, as opposed to getting caught off guard with anyone potentially popping in right the the problem is that we can't do that on what are likely going to be video submission timelines. So realistically, people are not going to know whether or not they're planning to attend the session, a month out from the conference. Fair. Yeah, there is there's a bit of clairvoyance that's going to be required because the timelines are tight for everything. So, just a suggestion, I would say it's, because figuring out how to do the live thing is, I don't think is a solved problem right now. I, if I was thinking about the session I would think about, like, let's take, you know how much time do we have let's take a small problem and maybe a large problem or small project large project medium project to medium projects kind of kind of thing and talk about different accesses of, of, of contributor documentation or maintainer documentation. See, I was, I was thinking of doing things as creative as, you know, hey, let's have this five minute general information session. And then say, okay, everybody was here, meet us on the zoom channel. Interesting. Yeah, let's, this is, I think this is turning into chair talk versus contributor strategy talk so let's let's offline it. Yeah. Yeah, just so people know that that's what's going on. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, it's just, you know, when I wrote the session I proposed it. I'm still geared to think about in person events. Or events that are actually part of conferences that I run. And thus have some control over the platform. So, yeah. Yeah, it's come up a lot and the way some of the, I mean, not, not this is easy. Another stuff I'm dealing with, you know, another event that's supposed to be highly interactive. And I just found out that the platform we're using has a limit of nine users live mice. And they were like, wait, you need more than nine. And I'm like, yeah. Yeah. We're trying to figure out a way around that a few more. Yeah. They don't need to be live at the same time, but they need to be able to turn them on. Yeah. So, yeah, we're struggling with technology. The, we have actually reached, we've actually reached the stage when we genuinely have technology problems instead of people problems. So, it's a rare thing. Most problems are people problems. We'll get through it. We'll get. Yeah. All right. So, okay. We're at time. Thank you everyone for hanging out and thank you for the thoughtful discourse. Thanks for taking over when I had to duck out. Of course, I catch you all later. See you everybody. Bye-bye. See you.