The film you see on your screen at this moment was taken from the nose of the United States Air Force Reconnaissance Airplane flying across country, or down on the desk, as the flyers call it. This is one of the methods used to get the facts about the enemy. The Aeronautical Systems Division at Wright Field is now engaged in developing new and more effective ways of recording enemy movement, placement of arms, airplanes, and buildings. This is our story, the business of watching an enemy from the air and taking his picture. On tonight's edition of Technology for Tomorrow. To introduce at this time my first guest on tonight's program is Dan Groves, who is staff at Minnesota Officers Deputy for Technology at Wright Field. Mr. Groves, perhaps we can start it off here tonight by my asking you just how important is reconnaissance to winning a war, sir? Here we're told important, it's the one necessary ingredient. The mission of the Air Reconnaissance Laboratory is somewhat unique. By the way, just through some here at the base, developed such things as rockets, missiles, and so forth, things designed to physically eliminate an enemy. But our job is more basic. We try to provide the foundation that will allow such machines of war to operate efficiently. You see our product points out the what and where in enemy terrain. Now this military watching, whether in wartime or peacetime, is likely to be resented by an enemy. Well, tell your chief, Mr. Groves, I ask you now if you can recall any instance where the enemy may have objected to being watched. Yes, I will certainly do it as a newsman. I'm sure that you recall the now famous incident of a strange airplane called the U-2. It seems that someone on our side was trying to figure out what their side had been with war material and where it was located. Now this is a species of intelligence reconnaissance that usually shuns publicity. But in this case, something went wrong that hit the front pages. The techniques that you devised and the instruments you developed are actually the hardened soul of military intelligence. Could you give me that? Yes, the instruments we devised are quite necessary. Quite necessary. We just have to have them. Can you give me an example so the lack of reconnaissance may have changed the course of the military operation? Well, yes, I can give you a good example. I know that you are familiar with the famous Battle of the Boards took place during World War II. This cost me a thousand American lives and almost resulted in a complete military catastrophe. As you recall, this was a trip he made when the part of the Germans that called us totally unprepared. Now how was this surprise attack achieved and how could it have been prevented? We think the answer is very simple. For three days our reconnaissance aircraft had been grounded by a heavy cloud cover. The reconnaissance aircraft could not fly. Well, if they'd have flown, they would have brought back pretty pictures of pretty clouds. You see, our air power and ground power were completely paralyzed by a lack of information and the Germans simply took full advantage of this fact. Here's the point. One picture from one flying airplane just might have changed the whole course of history during World War II. Then, in the 1940s, we could not get that picture. But today, with devices in our hands, we can keep an eye on the enemy. We can see him in the right view cloud cover and we will find him with only hugs and a hole in the ground. And I mean that readily. Having worked with you for the past week, I know you mean that little animal demonstrate here in a moment. Let's go, it's my understanding that you're the reconnaissance people at right cutters and you just about every branch of science that you can get your hands on. Is that true? Oh yes, that's true. This laboratory will accept, use and steal any tool that modern science can offer in an attempt to get more military information concerning an enemy. We have me and you specialized in invisible light, high power microwaves, huge lenses and barrel cameras, higher techniques, explosives, TV, radio transmission of pictures, the correction of weather data. You know, the necessity for a weather reconnaissance satellite in orbit was recognized by this laboratory some six years ago. It is now the time. Mr. Gray is unfaithful for this brief background sketch that's given us on the business of watching the enemy and if you're permitting ourselves, I'll take leave of you for a moment and I'll introduce my next guest, who will kind of rub it quick. He's a photographic engineer with a deputy photographer at right field. How long has the business of reconnaissance been going on? Well, we can't claim to be the oldest laboratory at right field, but I think that we can show you that the value of reconnaissance was recognized some time ago by the alert intelligence pilot of a rather unique cargo ship. The ship happens to be the Ark and the gentleman's name, Nora. In the Bible, in the 8th chapter of Genesis, we find a passage that reads something like this. Again, he sent forth a barb out of the Ark. The barb returned to him in the evening and low in her mouth was an olive leaf. So Nora knew that the water had abated from the face of the earth. We'll note, though, that this was a over reconnaissance. I do know what to say. Down through history, we've had numerous instances of the value of reconnaissance. We find that Caesar, Napoleon, and Stonewall Jackson, among others, used it. And finally, it even took to the air in World War I. Mr. Gray discussed its value during World War II. And now, today, finally, we're installing reconnaissance devices in supersonic vehicles, actually designing it for space. It's for the moon, Mars, Venus, and the army. Come with this 1961 technology that I'd like to concern myself with at this time. I want to begin now by being specific and telling you just how you go about getting these unusual pictures. Yes, sir, we use devices, or instruments, that we call sensors. These are the eyes of our system, so to speak. And as you know, our bodies function more efficiently when our five sensors operate properly. So it is in a reconnaissance system necessary to use more than one sensor in order to get the complete job done. Now we have talked about cameras. We have the camera sensor, which gives us our sharpest pictures. It's weather-limited, of course. We have our radar device, which Mr. Gray had mentioned. It's this that permits us to see through weather, clouds, and so forth. And we have infrared, which gives us records of objects that radiate heat. We'll hear a little more about that later. Do you have an example of these three different types? Yes, we have very soon here, showing Manhattan Island, those viewed by all three of these sensors. On the left, we see the island, those recorded by a radar device. And the sun here, the same scene, this time with a conventional camera, aerial camera. And on the right, we see Manhattan recorded by infrared. It appears that the center section of the photograph, that's taken by a regular light type photography, is the best. That's the best image, is that true? It is the sharpest of the three, Phil. But as we mentioned earlier, it's necessary to have three different types of sensors in order to get the complete picture. What would determine whether you would use infrared or radar? Probably the type of target that we're going after, the type of weather conditions, whether it's day or night, or things of this sort. But generally we try to have as many sensors aboard as physically possible. Carl, you referenced the terms here that I believe need more explanation. And I now give that mention to Mr. Thomas Wilk. Mr. Wilk's presentation starts with further kind of some studies for technology. Mr. Wilk has referred, we call a reference such things or animals as IR or inter-world. All of you kind of give us an explanation of what is the nature of these IRs. Well, to begin with, we know that all objects above absolute zero radiate heat each at its own weight. And infrared device can detect the difference in these radiations and record them on film in picture form. Here is one such picture taken at night over one of the runways here at Wright Hill. Keep in mind that the hotter the object, the brighter it will appear. We see several. This is the X-Painter on the runway.  This is actually the tub which produced airplanes from the hangar where the environment was warmer. In this next slide, we have a group of five people. The center one being a woman. Because the nylon that she is wearing is retaining her body's heat, her loaves appear brighter than the other people in the picture. This is the type of sensor that looks down to the ground to locate objects. Another looks up or out. An important feature used of infrared will be airborne early warning of ICBM. Task conducted at Cape Canaveral have indicated that we can detect incoming ICBMs from great distances. In this next slide, we have synthesized a future early warning satellite. It is a system of detectors orbiting the Earth for the purpose of detecting, launching, or presence of incoming missiles. In space, the attenuation of infrared energy is negligible due to the lack of atmosphere. We therefore have a potential capability of detecting incoming ICBMs seconds after they are launched. This information can then be telemeted back to our early warning network and logical quantum measures initiated. If you, uh, close mentioned a moment ago that you'd have more to say about the U-2. You forgive my two occupations of cell planes, so you do have more to say about the U-2. Yes, sir, not only to say, sir, but something to look at. Not many people have seen this particular plane in flight. Here's a short piece of film showing its extraordinarily steep climbing angle. We are using it experimentally at the present time to extend the range of our infrared sensors. On top of this film, or on top of the Earth's plane, we will notice in a minute some of our IR detection equipment. We're about to see that now in a tight shot. This aircraft now will bank right and come down below the camera. And I'll ask our audience to make the unusual bubble on top of the, uh, just behind the top today. This is where the enemy weapon is in this plane. Yes, sir. Now, this is an IR device. This is an IR device. It is exactly the same type of device that I have here at my side. This here is our IR detection equipment. It's exactly the same type of equipment we have installed on top of our airplane. Now, this will record on film, if I can use that term, anything that comes within a scope, is that right? This is essentially correct. What our IR detector picks up is displayed on a cathode ray tube. And then we actually film what we see on this tube. I couldn't help noticing this work that the device was located on top of the U-2, and I was under the impression that the U-2 took pictures of the ground. Well, in this particular instance, well, this equipment was installed on the top of the airplane, mainly for the purpose of detecting missiles and ICBMs. And if you wanted to take the recording of the ground, we could essentially just put it on the bottom of the airplane. I understand. Now, you took the records tonight way back to Congress, so this is in itself a surprising thing to me. I think a way back is a scope with a book on it. So I wasn't aware that you could take a picture with it. Well, there I have here a picture of modern pictorial radar. This approaches the quality of low resolution photography. This record was made through clouds from a high-performance half-line aircraft. A trained operator can identify specific aircraft types located on the ramp. The range of this picture is dependent upon the altitude of the aircraft. That dark street down in the middle of the picture happens to be the flight path of the airplane. What type of aircraft deployed the radar photography device? Well, in this next slide, we have a D-58. And you will notice underneath the airplane is a long pod, 64 in length. This pod contains 250 probe antennas that look out laterally to either side of the aircraft. Thank you, Mr. Wolf. Now, if I may now, I will turn to Colonel Quick. How does the camera measure up to the other methods of recording Mr. Wolf with this weapon? Quite well. Well, the camera actually is in advance of these other two sensors as far as recording picture detail. And it's detail that gives us our intelligence value. We estimate this detail, or resolution, in what we call lines per millimeter. Meaning the number of lines that a photograph can separate within the one millimeter, or about a 24th of an inch. For example, here is an aerial picture of New York City. Made with a 24-inch, standard-aid aerial camera from an altitude of about 50,000 feet. In World War II, it considered this excellent quality. It resolves approximately 25 lines per millimeter. Colonel, what are some of the problems involved in taking pictures from the air? We have a number of problems. Actually, one of the most difficult are the vibrations. The small high-frequency vibrations that are caused induced by the moving parts of an actual camera. We have Mr. Wayne Siegel standing by to operate an aerial camera for us to show you what I mean. Mr. Siegel, if you could move, sir. Every time these parts move, though, vibrations are induced. And if these vibrations cause the image in the focal plane to shift by a little of the thousands of an inch, we'd literally have it on our resolution. Now, if you submit me to digress, sir, what bothers me is how you can get a clear picture of the ground from an airplane that's moving maybe 600 miles an hour. Why doesn't the picture blur? The answer to that is what we call image motion compensation. So, notice in the magazine section the two roles of film. One is the take-up, the other the surprise pull. As the aircraft moves across the ground, film is moved across the focal plane. Its velocity is synchronized to that of the ground speed of the aircraft. This essentially minimizes or reduces the relative motion between the film and the ground and keeps our picture sharp. So, you solved that problem, and how did you solve the other various moving parts of the camera that are distributed? We found an interesting fact, and that is that the shutter of the camera is one of the main culprits that still work quality. So, to overcome this, we extracted the shutter from the camera and placed it down next to the window in the aircraft and connected the shutter back to the lens with a light-type flexible bow as shown here. This enabled us to exceed 100 miles per moment in our resolution, which by the way is a must if we were to get sharp pictures from great distance. It's probably the shutter could affect movement in that large piece of equipment that it does. It does, and well, well, well. Can you give us an example of some of the photographs taken by this new modified camera? We have an aerial picture of Bolton made with this external shutter camera. It might appear just as an ordinary picture at first glance, but our interpreter was a Baton boy, and his attention was directed to the aerial within the circle near the bottom of the picture. A small spectre appeared to be a parked car. So, he had this section of the negative in large 30-diameters, and sure enough, it was a parked car. We later determined it was a 57-4, to be exact. Now, this is not another photograph. This is a blow-up of the spectre. This is a 30-times blow-up of the small section within that circle. Now, see the car and I'm trying to find the occupants. We found two of them. One turned out to be a fisherman. His fishing pole was extended over the water, as you can see, and he was a partner, and he appears to be boating his hook. Now, we're resolving here from an altitude of about three miles of fishing pole, one-half-inch in diameter. It's pretty good, well enough, but it's not good enough. And we're striving for the day when we hope we can show you the hook in the room. And when you do, I hope you'll call me with a scoop. Colonel, I'm led to conclude that there's no such thing as privacy anymore. That means, in my opinion, we do... That's right. There's no other way, Colonel, that we can get high-resolution, outside of the methods you just lesson. There's one other way that we might call a group force, in this case sheer size or focal length. In the earliest slide, we talked about high-resolution with focal length of 24 inches. And here's a picture that was made of New York City, with a camera whose focal length was some 20 feet in length. This picture, by the way, was made from a distance of 65 miles southeast of New York. I'll call your attention in particular to the objects along the Jersey shoreline and to this building in particular. Recall that previously we needed pretty diameter enlargement to pick up detail. With the focal length built in and with the very slight magnification, we could read on the building in question the words, The letters actually measure here 6 feet in height, and they're doing this from 65 miles away. Now, the focal length of the camera that took for the lens, it took that 20 feet in length. This is essentially a massive lens, right? This is quite a large camera. I'm sorry, we can't show you the actual mechanism itself. I do have, however, a big camera of an earlier image, this one 19-ton. As you can see, it took 15 minutes on a board just to change the focus. We call this one the Bessemer Browning. You, not only in the missile age, you're forced to reduce the size, mass, weight of the equipment. You have to have more capacity. Yes, we would like to get the biggest camera that we can inside of the vehicle. We'd like to put more power in that. We could, but there just isn't enough room. But we have to specialize in high precision optics and very good quality for our mechanism, but with limited size. Colin, getting more down to practice the examples of photographs taken during the war time, my question of you is, what are you looking for? What are you trying to find in a photograph? We try to find a great variety of things, both at range and size, actually, from the smallest, such as rivets on a tank, to entire airfields. We look for just about everything within those two limits. You have brought with you some examples of the war time photography in a service because if I ask you to, of course, as you're going to be very known, that you've seen a number of missions in Korea and elsewhere, taking pictures yourself in battle, I'm not so sure about it, but I kind of hope to have a part of that to make the weapon for what kind of photography continues. We have several here. We were taken in Germany during the war. The first one is an aerial view with after-photography annotations. And the next slide will show how an aerial photo that has been looked at carefully or by a trained interpreter would look after he has placed the matters of intelligence interest down. For example, we see here a number of aircrafts who's not only identified but counted. Could you point out some of the other details that the photographer was able to write? There are a number of other interesting features here. There are gun emplacements. We can notice gun emplacements. There are actual storage areas. There are gunways. The gunways, of course, are always of interest. The length of the gunways would indicate, for example, types of aircraft that would be used and so forth. So there's a wide variety of important intelligence information that can be gained from a single aerial photograph. You have an example of a photograph taken at night where it's used for red photography. This is a night photograph. This happens to be one of my favorite subjects, by the way, but this is a night picture made over the Irrawaddy River in northern Burma during the war with Japan. Now, I'd like to point out that photography or reconnaissance to be complete has got to be continuous. This means that we've got to fly around the clock and be able to detect things at war at night as well as in the daytime. The aerial daytime pictures showed the bridge had been bombed in this case. We can see that there is no bridge. We can see the clock marks representing the bomb craters. But intelligence had found that the Japanese were moving supplies and men across the river. How were they doing it? This was the question. To find out, we had to send a special aircraft at night, and this is one of the pictures that it took. And we found out the methods that were being used. There was a rope bridge that was being used to over which the Japanese were sending their troops. And there were a series of barges or row boats that looked like in this case, which actually floated the trucks and material across the river. Now, what happened during the day? We concealed these things during the daytime hours so that our eyes in the daytime could not reveal what was actually going on. Only at night, when they actually came out from undercover and went into our operations, did we actually find out what actually took place and how they were forming the river. So, black pop marks, six of the pop marks near the border, right? Sure. These are the craters that were left by the bombardment aircraft as they bombed and knocked out the main bridge. And it was these that actually we thought from these that we had done the job, but it was not complete. This was a sneaky enemy, then. It was indeed was, well. If we could have the next slide. This also was an actual war-time fill-up up, is it, Nelson? Yes, this was made during the Korean focus and is a dicing shot, a low-altitude photo, a blank picture in which we can practice to look into the front doors of these buildings that we find here.  Next slide, please. Here's an interesting story. This was the Incheon in Beijing. The landing forces had a very important problem to face, and that was the height of the seawall for various times of the day. You see, the tide varies in height, and the landing forces needed to know at precisely the hour of the landing how high the wall would be if they had the scale. We took an aircraft with a dicing camera in it, and were able to evaluate and determine the height of this wall for the exact hour of the invasion within a matter of a few inches. This is the two-page spread that appeared in Life magazine showing the invasion at that actual time. Next slide, please. Here's another low-altitude photograph. The aircraft in front that we're looking at there is dropping its shells, its armament on an instant-looking hut. But inside that hut there was a tank. The hut was just below there, and we found that an enemy tank had been concealed. We found this by air photography, and we were able to actually send out a tanking aircraft to destroy in this case the tank. You said this was clear? This is also clear, yes, sir. We did quite a bit of picture taking during the period. Quite a lot of picture taking was in order in this practice, but our operation was safe. Well, I'm thankful to you for running account of some of the more important photographs taking during actual war time. Mr. Golds, if I may, sir, I'd like to return to you and ask you a question that perhaps has occurred to the viewer. I don't want to synchronize the program but bring you two into them as well. There are some among us who feel that us, you and I, as reconnaissance, is not a... but we shouldn't be. How do you respond to this type of philosophy? Well, everyone performs reconnaissance for every chance he gets. It's just one of the rules of the game. Now, when it comes to playing this game, I think our moral standards in this country are as high as anybody's. I'm confident that every American would be willing to die if it's necessary for his country, but there might be more wisdom in making the other fellow die for his country. What we see is a two-beded sword. It is not only of great value for fighting and winning wars as we've seen tonight, but we think it can be a powerful weapon in preventing other wars. Just think how wonderful it would be if all the big countries of this world could be made to see the wisdom of a round-the-clock photography so that everyone knew about the honorable intentions of his neighbors. I'm sure that we would all sleep better every night. Mr. Golds, my thanks to you and my gratitude this extended equally to Mr. Wolfson kind of quick and all the people who worked behind the scenes with C.R.O.D. who helped us quite a bit at the base and behind us are all these people who are kind to us. I'm thankful that you've supported us and informed us how this is going tonight and behind us now, Jeff, I give you good night. When you're American, you have become extremely complacent about our capability for fighting and winning wars. And one never enters our hubs. Other people, however, can always examine and consider, perhaps even worry. For example, a very wise Englishman said to Franklin D. Roosevelt during World War II, our hope that in war your country will never be defeated. I'm sure we all applaud that generous wish and hope that it will hold true in these dangerous times. And we believe most honestly that our presence is insurance against such defeat, safety against enemy surprise attached. The prevention of any of this overhearing within our borders, the approaching scream of an incoming death-laden enemy missile.


My name is Kelly Aspruth Jackson, and I am one of the ministers here. Today, I am joined by the worship team of Linda Warren and Drew Collins, and by our special guest worship leader. The vision of FUS is growing souls, connecting with one another, and embodying our UU values in our lives, our community, and in our world. For those worshiping with us in person, it is a joy to be with you in time and space. We ask that, while you're here in the building, you keep your mask on, especially while singing. For those joining us virtually today, we are also very glad to be with you. We hope you will be able to join us for our virtual coffee hour immediately following our service. The information for joining can be found on the home page of our website, fussmedicine.org. The guest in our pulpit today is the Reverend Monica Kling Garcia. They currently serve as a chaplain resident at Unity Point Meritor Hospital here in Madison. As a chaplain, Reverend Monica's theology is one which emphasizes relationships and storytelling with their patients. We are glad to have them with us to share a message for the new year this morning. Reverend Monica, thank you for being with us. And I invite you now to join me in a moment of silence, to center yourself and bring yourself fully into this time as we join together once again in community. Perfect. Thank you for your patience, everyone here and at home. We're now ready to go. Let us call ourselves into worship, into this sacred time together with our opening words written by Susan Mankerseel. Out of our busyness, we are called back into balance, back into ourselves and the silence of present being. But it is not just back into ourselves to which we are called. It is also to the awareness of the continuous presence of the environment around us and within us. We are called to remember our relationships and our dependencies. We are called to once again feel the oneness which sustains our being in balance with creation and to do so with wonder and appreciation. I now invite you to join me in reading our chalice lighting which will appear on your screen. We light this chalice in honor of this new year and new beginnings. May this time together in worship open our minds and our hearts to the endless possibilities of relationship and community. I'd like to share with you a folktale from Germany that it happened one day that there were four animals who came together in a common barnyard and the first of the animals was a cat who said, I am old, my teeth are not as sharp as they were, my claws not quite as pointed as once they were. My desire to hunt mice is a great deal less than it was in my youth and I have heard my mistress say that since I am no longer useful as a hunter of mice, she is going to do away with me. What am I to do with myself? The next of the animals was a dog and the dog said once when I was younger I hunted and caught many rabbits and other animals for my master but now that I am older and not quite as fast he has said that I no longer have a use for him and so there is no point to me anymore. What am I to do? And there was another animal there, a donkey who said when I was a young donkey I used to carry great bushels of corn and wheat here and there to and fro for my master but now I am older, more tired, cannot carry as much and he has said that I am of no use to him anymore. What am I to do? And finally there was a rooster, the rooster said I used to get up at dawn every morning and cry out cockadoodle doo, but look I can't get up that early every day and my master has said that if I don't rise to greet the sun every morning then what is the point of me? What am I to do? So the four animals thinking together about it decided that it would be better to set out on their own than to stay where they were and accept that eventually something bad was going to happen to them because they couldn't be of use to the humans who kept them. So they decided to make their way in the world and perhaps to travel to the town of Bremen and there to seek work as musicians because the whole farm lifestyle just wasn't going well for them at all. So they headed out down the road towards the town of Bremen and they traveled all day into the night and it was well after dark when they came upon a house with just a few lights in the windows and needing a place to stay for the night they thought that they might knock on the door and ask for some hospitality but they heard some loud sort of raucous noises from inside so they decided to peek at the windows first before they went inside. What they saw was quite disturbing to them you see the house was filled with robbers men who lived rough in the countryside who attacked people passing by on the road and taking from them their possessions in order to enrich themselves and they were arguing over a game of dice that they were having with some of the loot that they had gotten off of some very unfortunate travelers. The animals thought for a moment well they could keep going but they had nowhere to stay for the night but the people here were not very likely to show them any hospitality. So they decided that they would take a little experiment right they were going to go to Bremen to be musicians so why not strike up a band outside and see even if these were very rough chaps maybe they would come outside and listen to their music and perhaps give them a few coins even if they were ill-gotten they needed something to survive so they started playing their music.  So they were making a noise that is true and eventually all the folks the robbers who were living in that house they came out to hear what was going on but it was after dark there was no light to see by and among all of that noise and that din they started stumbling around in the darkness looking for what could be the cause of it what could be the cause of this strange and terrible noise and one of them stepped on the cat's tail and look you know you step on a cat's tail you get the claws that's just what happens it's not the cat's fault and one of them tripped over the dog and the dog wasn't sure what was going on and he nipped it his leg a little bit one of them just stumbled right into the donkey and donkeys kick I mean that's just how it goes and one of them basically stepped right on the rooster and the rooster didn't like that at all and let out a terrible cry and so amid all that noise and that violence and the commotion the robbers were quite afraid they thought that maybe someone was attacking the building they were living in like some of you know their robbers they steal from people maybe someone else was gonna come steal from them in fact they met up a way down the road flying you know just just trying to get as far away as possible they met up again and they tried to exchange their understanding about what had happened and one of them thought that there was there was a witch a witch with terrible claws who would attack him another one said that there was there was a man with a knife we'd stabbed him in the leg a third one said that a monster with a great club had struck him right in the gut the last one said that there was a judge who had come to arrest all of them who had called out to bring the prisoners forth so whatever the case they were just glad that they got away and they headed down the road and who knows whatever became of them but those animals well they were a little roughed up after that whole commotion with the robbers but here was this nice house and had all that lovely treasure inside of it and a warm fire they thought it was quite lovely so they decided to stay and there they stayed for the rest of their days and you know what they never actually made it to Bremen and they never became musicians so I have to tell you quite honestly I don't know why we tell this story and call it the Bremen town musicians if they never got to Bremen and they never actually became musicians but they did remain friends for the rest of their natural lives I invite you now into a time of giving and receiving where we give freely and generously to this offering which sustains our community here and also supports the work of our Outreach through our offering recipient. Our gifts throughout this holiday season provide a great deal of the funding that runs just Dane's eviction prevention program sometimes the difference between a family being out on the street or staying in their home can be a little help with the rent with your help just Dane and joining forces for families are helping people to prevent evictions and homelessness you'll see on the screen that you can donate directly from our website fussmattison.org you'll also see there the text to give information as well there are in addition baskets just outside the hall where you can leave any cash for checks you may wish to this is by the way the final opportunity of this season to contribute to this cause we thank you for your generosity and your faith in this life that we create together of a new year's resolution was when I was eight years old right after our return from winter break we were assigned the task of coloring in a picture and finishing the sentence my new year's resolution is now it's important to note here in the story that I was a very literal child and I was told to write down something I wanted to achieve in the new year so while some kids wrote be nicer to my sister or get better at sports I wrote the simple but memorable grow taller not totally wrong but I also think was not what the teacher had in mind each January many of us take the practice of setting our own intentions for what we wish to achieve in the new year as most of us know new years resolutions often tend to be self-improvement focused and rather short-lived a quick Google search will show you several articles titled things like top 10 best new year's resolutions for 2022 and will list things like exercise more make a budget drink more water and so on these are all good goals to have but I feel like the heart of the resolution is missing if the point is to set an intention for the new year are these truly the most important things about our year and why do we do this practice I think that resolutions are more than just goal-setting but are a way for us to have something to hold on to in the thick of the unknown as a general rule we humans like to predict the future as much as we can I mean even our weather apps can foretell the weather up to 10 days in advance however the reality of our lives is that there are there's just so much that we don't know the idea of an ambiguous world filled with unknown and uncertainties in our life it's a difficult concept for us to embrace it's just much easier for us to put the world in categories for us to try to plan the future or have definitive answers as much as possible rather than realizing that there are just some things in this world that we simply don't know and won't ever know in this age of COVID we all know we've experienced this heightened sense of discomfort with ambiguity when will this pandemic end is this gathering workplace restaurants safe or not we are constantly making decisions with this feeling of not totally knowing the answers as to what is best but in reality we never actually knew these answers before COVID either the certainty we have about the world and everything in it the way it has been or always been in a way has kind of been an illusion to make us comfortable we simply don't know what the weather will actually be even with our apps I know the best late plans for the day might never actually happen no religion including ours has definitely figured out all the answers about spirituality and we don't know how long we have here on this earth or what the time we spend here is going to be like we just know this moment and make our best guesses plans and goals for the rest I bring all this up because I've been reflecting on the reasons for my resolutions that I set am I setting them in the name of self-improvement or to feel a sense of control in a world that feels so out of control to me for example I have some chronic health conditions in my life that bring a certain amount of unknowns and ambiguity and so I am setting goals to exercise I make sense and it's something I enjoy but I realize it also gives me a sense of control over my health now when the inevitable happens and I get sick and can't exercise I lose that sense of control and it's about that time that I usually realize that I didn't have as much control as I thought I did over the universe the habits and practices that were to be my protection in the unpredictable times are in fact more like my security blanket in those times now we are when we are in periods of unknown these liminal spaces I think what we need is not actually control but hope and while we may think we can only find hope and places of joy in our lives I think that some of the greatest examples of hope are in the places where we face adversity and this is why I personally learn so much about hope in my job as a hospital chaplain at work I have the privilege of hearing different people's stories every day when people are in the hospital it's often isolating or scary or sad the small bit of control that they did feel in their lives is completely gone so in these difficult times I like to ask my patients some questions specifically what brings you hope in your life and what is important to you over these past few months I've noticed that my patients who are sick in our in the hospital for a short time will answer with the things that they do traveling concerts photography or reading reading is a big one in the hospital you can still do that the answer with the is with these activities right that bring them comfort and joy so this was pretty consistent in my first few months at the hospital until one day I asked this question to a patient who we will call Janet Janet was in her 80s sick with cancer and recently made the decision to focus on comfort for the rest of her life she was petite in stature but big in personality and she had this short white hair that she'd have her daughter come in and comb every morning and so when I had this visit I sat in bed and sat not in bed goodness she was in bed I was sitting next to the bed and the two of us had a visit of light-hearted conversations and also deep reflection and so during one lull in the conversation I asked Janet these same questions I had asked other patients what brings you hope in your life what feels important to you right now and without hesitation she turned to me and said my children and my grandchildren I've just been so lucky in my life to have them so she then told me all about her family the good times the bad times the times she forgave and the times she was forgiven I was struck by the fact that Janet's answers were focused on the people in her life more than what she did in her life and the months since then I've continued to ask this question to patients I meet who are gravely ill or dying and they all get their hope from their relationships their kids their partner their grandkids their friends they will tell me stories about the concerts that they went to with their friends or their favorite trips abroad with their spouse or the books that they read to their children while they were growing up but the focus is never on what they did with their lives it's on what or on who they did those things with and so friends as we enter 2022 I ask us can we do the same this year instead of our new year's resolutions being about what we want to do this year can we make them about who we want to spend this year with there are many unknowns in this life things we don't know about ourselves the world or even the day ahead and yet in the face of arguably one of the greatest unknowns death and what does or doesn't come after Janet and others like her found hope in the people that they loved and so I believe that the greatest antidote to the fear of unknowns in life is just to not go down those paths alone take the story of Megan for example a young woman in St. Louis who is diagnosed with Crohn's disease in 2016 this diagnosis propelled Megan into a scary time in her life one where she didn't know what the future would bring for her or how to navigate this new illness in her day-to-day life her doctor recommended that she try hot yoga and so she got a job at a local studio and that is where she met Dale an older man who was the custodian for the building and clean the studio at night when her shifts ended a kind soul and a great listener Dale started doing research in his free time about Crohn's disease and brought Megan homemade juices from home to help her when speaking to the podcast kind world later in 2020 Megan said turning such a hard and confusing time in my life where I was relearning my body and health Dale small act of kindness meant everything to me the story of Megan and Dale shows how we can find relationships in so many places in our lives for some our web of relationships connects us to family members and friends others may find connection in online communities and spaces like all of our folks online who are joining us today co-workers neighbors even strangers at the grocery store are all opportunities to make connections big or small to enrich our lives and help us face that unknown in our world now I want to take a moment in honor that there are some relationships in our lives that may feel wounded for one reason or another that when we think about prioritizing those relationships we might feel a sense of loss and so I am by no means suggesting that we try to mend relationships that are unsafe to do so or suggesting that the typical nuclear family relationships are the only ones to be cherished let this new year help us focus on nurturing the connections that feed us and sustain us of all kinds so I encourage us all this year if after the sermon new year's resolutions are indeed your practice to make ones that align with those relationships in your life that are your source of hope one of the benefits of living into relationship is that it doesn't just make our own lives better but it ripples out into our own communities hope is not experienced in a vacuum it is a light that spills over and illuminates the path for those that we know and those that we don't when we are feeling hopeful or even joyful we are more likely to smile at others to laugh to compliment someone or do any small act of kindness for others and in turn acts of kindness spark hope even in the most uncertain of times our community expands further than the people that we even personally know so let us measure this year not by our achievements but by the love we give and receive this world will always be filled with twists and turns and unknowns ambiguity is here to stay but there are there will always be big questions that we can't answer in this lifetime but through this journey of life through the ambiguity and the uncertainty that it brings it's all not so daunting when we do it with others when we know that we are not alone last weekend humankind lost a voice for humanity and the earth lost a friend in the passing from life of Desmond Tutu formerly Anglican Archbishop of Cape Town South Africa he was a champion of the truth and reconciliation process by which his nation navigated its way out of the endless racist violence of apartheid as we rest on the threshold of a new year a time of new beginnings if we have courage enough to open ourselves to them it seems fitting to remember him with these words that he co-authored with his daughter full the prayer before the prayer I want to be willing to let go to forgive but dare not ask for the will to forgive in case you give it to me and I am not yet ready I am not yet ready for my heart to soften I am not yet ready to be vulnerable again not yet ready to see that there is humanity in my tormentors eyes or that the one who hurt me may also have cried I am not yet ready for the journey I am not yet interested in the path I am at the prayer before the prayer of forgiveness grant me the will to want to forgive granted to me not yet but soon can I even form the words forgive me dare I even look I dare do I dare to see the hurt I have caused I can glimpse all the shattered pieces of the fragile thing that soul trying to rise on the broken wings of hope but only out of the corner of my eye I am afraid of it and if I am afraid to see how can I not be afraid to say forgive me is there a place where we can meet you and me the place in the middle where we straddle the lines where you are right and I am right to and both of us are wrong and wronged can we meet there and look for the place where the path begins the path that lead that ends when we forgive efficiency with our intentions set towards fostering relationships new and old may our hearts be anchored by the hope only we can share with each other through those tumultuous unknown waves of life we may not know what 2022 has in store for us but what we do know is that we will have this community through it all our worship has now ended but our service begins go forth and be a blessing


Welcome to American Issues Take One. I'm Tim Apachele, your host. Today's title is, Trump says three presidents took docs too. Trump's, what about it is, distracts his crime. When the story broke about the FBI going to Mar-a-Lago and retrieving boxes of documents, I think people are generally shocked that this took place with the former president of the United States. I don't think it's been done before. So immediately there was a lot of media attention on this issue. And if I recall, Trump and Trump's team the response to this raid, and it wasn't a raid by the way, it was a judge authorized search warrant. Raids are the wrong word to use in this situation. But I remember the first response was, those boxes were packed by GSA and shipped to Mar-a-Lago. Go talk to them about what's in those boxes. And when that didn't pan out, Trump immediately pointed the finger at Obama. In a classic, what about is, I'm saying, well, President Obama took thousands of documents. That little ploy was blunted when the National Archives within hours said, no, President Obama used a legal format procedure to obtain his documents for his library. So when that didn't work, then the FBI now were being blamed by Donald Trump saying that they were now depositing all sorts of documents in those boxes. And it's the FBI that's creating this whole mess. Well, that didn't pan out either. Then he cried that I declassified those documents. I simply declassified them. And all I had to do is think about them being declassified and they are declassified. And so that's not a what about ism. That's about how about that ism, how about that? I just think of something that is declassified. Then last but not least, being more desperate because this thing is rolling along in the courts. President Trump now points a finger at President Bush Sr. that he took thousands of documents and stashed them in a bowling alley. Then Clinton took documents. Then Bush Jr. took documents. Well, the National Archives has come to the forefront of those accusations, those what about isms and said, no, the all followed procedure. So as of Sunday at his rally in Arizona, Donald Trump goes back to his playbook and starts blaming once again, the FBI for putting classified documents in all those mini boxes at Mar-a-Lago. Which brings us to the story of, where are we now with Donald Trump and his what about isms? I'd like to introduce my guests. Today we have a special guest, Chuck Crumpton to the show. Welcome Chuck. We have my co-host and special guest, Jay Fidel. And we have our special contributor, Cynthia Lee Sinclair. Good morning, everyone. Good morning. Good morning, Tim. Good morning, Chuck. We're all special today, I guess, huh? I like that introduction. You know, it just gets better every week. So yes, you are all very special in my heart too. Chuck, after all the statements that Donald Trump has not broken any laws, that he, you know, has right to all these documents, and he does this in open airways, he broadcasts his legal defense basically on political rallies, is that serving him well, legally? Well, first, good question. First, putting it in context, it really doesn't matter what he thinks or what the media thinks, or even what people who read or hear the media think. Hey, it's really up to Merrick Garland and the DOJ and how they see the evidence. They're clearly building a case. And one of the things that's very different about the Mar-a-Lago documents case from any that we've seen previously is that the DOJ has been moving very quickly, decisively and without deference to the Trump favoring judge at the district court level in Florida. And they've been so far pretty successful, pretty effective. So that's where the real strategic legal battle is gonna be fought. And the one that will probably become the most influential in the course of preparations for the 2024 elections, not for these new terms. You know, DOJ recently wrote to the Supreme Court because Donald Trump has petitioned the Supreme Court for assistance. And it seems to be the primary argument that DOJ is presenting is he doesn't own the documents. They're not his documents. And that seems to be the basis of their arguments moving forward. What do you think about that? Well, legally, that argument essentially is without established legal defense or exception. I mean, there's no question about it. As former acting solicitor general, Neil Cotton, yeah, I'll put it last week. If it were anybody other than Trump, it would have been indicted long ago. But there are clearly a lot of impacts of the indictment and you've got an attorney general and the Department of Justice who are moving slowly but carefully, but apparently inexorably and commentators have indicated recently, there's pretty much no place they can go with the arguments that they're making now other than an indictment. Okay, thank you. Cause on that point, I'd like to direct that to Jay. Jay, is former president Trump trying to get indicted? Was there any benefit politically for him to do that? Certainly not legally, but politically. Now, I hate to refer to my teenage years in Queens and so I won't. Although I lived in the three subway stops away from where Trump grew up and I couldn't talk about the culture of teenagers in Queens. I'll talk about lawyers here in Honolulu and I can think of one, I won't name him, but his tactics were always the same. Whatever you said in court, whatever you said in your pleadings, whatever claim or defense you made, he would change the subject. He would never answer you straight on, never. When I say never, I mean never. And it worked for him because everybody got distracted. It was the art, not of the deal, but the art of the distraction. This whole thing about Marilago is a distraction. Every argument he makes, every ridiculous statement, his maneuvers with Eileen Cannon, his outrageous statements to the press, it's all a distraction. And if he's looking for some motivation there, I think the motivation, he's just running the clock because he believes that somehow we will have an inflection point that works in his favor on election day, which is not too far away at less than a month, in three weeks, actually, from now. And if he can get there, and I think he can get there, then somehow that will work through his benefit. And if the houses of Congress, control of the houses of Congress change, then he's got to run the clock till January, which I think he can probably do the way this is going. Remember the justice who was gonna hear this rule on this Takamemi motion of his for assistance, is Clarence Thomas, remember him? He's my very favorite. He's not gonna do the United States any good. So, you know, that's one element to this. And the other element is, the two of you have mentioned it, and that is that Merrick Garland is moving with some level of dispatch. Inextrable was the word last year's. I'm not sure inexorable is the dispatch. But let me say that there are two schools of thought on Merrick Garland. One is, I would call evidence-based. It took him almost two years to get to where he is now. And that has not been dispatched. And I don't have any level, any significant level of confidence that he is actually going to get to an indictment. And I'm willing to do pizza on that, you guys. No more pizza. No more pizza. No more pizza. I don't think he's gonna get there. He's gonna flimflam around, he's intimidated. I don't know, he's got this thing about due diligence. And remember that there are people in the Department of Justice and the FBI that Trump appointed, they're still there, which is the subject of the show we're gonna do tomorrow. So I'm not clear that the Department of Justice can get its act together and get its hands around an indictment right now. I don't know why not. I'm telling you that if Chuck or I or you guys were handling this for the Department of Justice, Trump would have been indicted a year ago at least. But somehow with all the resources theoretically available to the Attorney General of the United States, under a friendly president now, Biden, he hasn't got there yet. So that's a factor that plays. So Jay, what I'm saying is just trying to run the clock on Merrick Garland. Well, Jay, you're willing to bet a pizza. I'm already in the hole with my pizza bets to you. What are you gonna say here on Think Tech Hawaii when that indictment, not if, but when that indictment comes through, what will your words be? Let's go down for a pizza. And pay off that bet, Jim. Okay, good answer. Hey, Cynthia, Jay has accurately described the many Trump, what about isms, what about Obama, what about Clinton, what about Bush, the what about isms to a distraction? The question to you is, is Donald Trump itching for an indictment? Does he wanna be indicted? If not, why is he doing what he's doing to thumb his nose at the DOJ? And if he does wanna be indicted, is there a political strategy behind that? Okay, I don't believe he wants to be indicted because I'm not 100% positive, but I believe that a criminal investigation or criminal case takes precedent over a civil case. So that would then just pull all the teeth out of this civil case, that this crazy, and I mean, crazy. I've done a little bit of a research on Christina Bob, the one that was handling some of this stuff. Did you know that she was actually in the room at the Willard Hotel on January 6th, and she was operating as a go-between for Rudy Giuliani between officials in Arizona, and she's been carrying Trump's water for a long time. She was on the OAN network first, and then, well, first she did a lot of other stuff, but then she was on the OAN network, and just constantly talked about the stolen election, stopped the steal, the big lie. That was her big thing, which is what brought her over to Trump's team to begin with. So this is one of the things that I think is important. Now, we're talking about all this, what aboutism stuff, right? Whether Trump told her to say it beforehand or she came up with it on her own, but the very day of the raid, or excuse me, the search, she says, I don't believe that there was any classified material in there, though I'm sure the FBI will say that there is. And she said that in an interview, just two days after the search. So this has been like part of their nonstop what they're trying to push. So at the rally this weekend, and you know Trump, boy, that's one thing we can count on it for, and that is to tip his hand. He can't seem to keep his mouth shut about important things like that. And we know we've seen that over all these years. And so Saturday's rally was no different when he very specifically said what it was that the FBI was going to plant. And he said, you know, so of course, when the FBI says that there were specific documents on how to build a nuclear bomb cheaply, then you know, I'm sure they put it there. Now, this is the first time we've heard anything about any talk of there being that specific document. So it's funny when he tries to name specific documents that they might plant. Well, how does he know what they might plant? So that's where he totally betrays his own self when he does that, because he shares stuff. Well, I know that is usable in a court of law, I suspect his words and statements can be presented as part of the attempt to indict. Thank you, Cynthia. I appreciate that. I'm glad you brought that up because once again, Donald Trump's mouth exceeds the legal opinions from his attorneys and who could represent them? Well, why would they represent them? Because one, they doesn't take their advice and two, he doesn't pay his bills. Going back to you, Chuck, I've asked this question before. I know I have, but it's worth asking again. And that is, what happens to the DOJ's credibility the rule of law, if they don't indict? And what reaction takes place with Trump's followers and the public in general, if they do indict? It's a really good question because- It's a hard question. It is. And if you're sitting on the other side of it, on the DOJ, Merrick Garland side of it, the key to the question is how? What's the indictment? How do they present it? And what do they back it up with? Now, one of the things that the DOJ has done that is not characteristic of most prosecutions in the Mar-a-Lago case is very quickly after Trump raised his lies and distractions about Mar-a-Lago, they moved the court to unseal substantial portions of the list and inventory of documents found to show the extent of classified, highly classified high security documents that were included. Since then, additional information has come out. They've had that great photo of the documents spread out on the rug. They've had big reports of documents with Trump's sharpie markings on them with his apparent handwriting in Disha. So, on the one hand, there doesn't seem to be any question in anybody's mind, despite the distractions of the lies, that he unauthorizedly took highly classified documents illegally and put them in Mar-a-Lago. So the question's gonna be, as it would be with a January 6th indictment, what's the indictment for and what's the evidentiary backup for that that's presented together with it? And I think one of the things that you're starting to see in the DOJ is they're combining those two things, their position and the backup for it. And they're publicizing those things. Yeah, to get ahead of it. Yeah, they are publicizing it. Jay, I know your concern for our democracy is peaked, as I think all of ours is as well. We're concerned about the rule of law and the continuation of our democratic government system. To you, the same question. What happens if the DOJ fails to indict President Trump? What sort of damage to the rule of law and the credibility of justice? Does Donald Trump, does he exceed the law and he is above the law? I think he's got a schematic in his mind on all of these choices and possibilities. And to answer your last question, I'm not sure it means that much to one way or the other because somebody here, Chuck, has said that it depends on whether the DOJ is able to get an indictment. But I'm thinking of Rachel Maddow's new ultra podcast. This episode number two is called The Brooklyn Boys. And it's the story of a group of people in Brooklyn who were led by a fellow named, I forget his name, and he was part of Father Kaufflin's national group. Well, before you got to the Brooklyn Boys, there was a trial, an indictment and a trial by the DOJ, somewhere in middle America, of a group and its members called something like the Christian Coalition or Christian Leadership, something along, they gotta listen to it, you'll see. And they caught a lot of people with guns and plans and conspiracies, with a conspiracy that was dedicated to killing a number of Congress people and taking over the government. It was taking over the government. It was a coup by force. And they had evidence of that. And they indicted these guys in this trial somewhere in the Midwest, I forget where. And the Father Kaufflin and his friends who were behind this group were outside in the street with people protesting the trial. They were in the courtroom. Every time a statement was made that undermined the DOJ, everybody would applaud. They filled the press with commentary about how these guys were really innocent. They were patriots. This was their way of expressing patriotism.  And after a while, you understand why Rachel Maddow is researching these events back in the around 1940 or so. And I think we have to take that into account here because if Trump, you know, you asked before, does Trump wanna be indicted? I don't think it matters. If he gets indicted, that crowd is gonna be on the street. The media will be filled with his base. They'll be in the courtroom, which has to be open.  And they'll be making some kind of distraction kind of defense and they'll appeal it. And there are 50 things at least you can think of that Trump would use to demolish that indictment and that trial. By the way, the guys in the trial in the Midwest were acquitted down to the last man. And the Department of Justice was humiliated for years. I believe that Trump thinks he can do the same thing. And that's why Rachel Maddow is covering it. Good point. Yeah, I'm gonna have to check those out. Cynthia, Donald Trump implied, I don't know if he implied it. I think it was almost an explicit statement that should an indictment come his way that they'll be, he implied there's gonna be violence. Like, nothing we've ever seen before, you know, those kinds of statements. Do you agree with Jay that if there's an indictment handed down that Donald Trump will stir up his MAGA GOP base and even the GOP generally, not just his MAGA followers but the entire GOP? Does he try to do that? And if so, how does he do it? Well, at this point, and the last part of your question is just how I was gonna answer the whole first part too. He doesn't need to do it himself anymore. He's got millions, lots of them in the media, in the legal profession, in the FBI. And like Jay pointed out what we're gonna talk about tomorrow, lots of people that are still put there in the positions, he put them there before he left office. Then we've just got sitting senators that are saying it. We've got sitting, you know, representatives that are talking like this, saying this stuff that if he's indicted, there's gonna be war. What was that Lindsey Graham said there's going to be violence in the street? So we've got, he doesn't need to do it himself. It's already in place. Then he's got all the proud boys. Well, isn't he kind of doing that now at rallies in Arizona and across the country before the midterm elections? Isn't he already stoking those fires in advance? Yeah, that's what he's doing right now. But he's doing it, not necessarily his minions. Well, but his minions are also, they're all doing it together. So after he's indicted, if he has to get a gag order or something, it won't matter because he's got all his minions out there. And those minions are already doing it, and he is too. But so it's not just on him, what will he do? Even if he stops, he's still got everybody else. And I have a question, can't the judge seal the courtroom? Isn't that possible? Isn't there lots of high profile cases where the judge says, all right, that's it. We're not taking anybody.  Thank you. Thank you, Cynthia, very much. Chuck, let me take a left turn here. I'm gonna take a little left-hand lane change here. If Musk gets his Twitter accounts and he buys the company and he immediately allows Donald Trump to initiate a new account, to what degree does Donald Trump use his new Twitter account to foil and blunt attempts to indict him? It's a good question. It's got multiple parts. First, understanding Musk and looking at him in context. This is a guy who just within recent days approached Putin and offered to try and broker a deal that would get Putin everything he wants. Correct. In Ukraine. So this is not a guy who is politically neutral. Is he violating potentially the Logan Act? He's probably violating quite a few laws. And so there may be some question as to whether investigation of Musk or what he does once he takes over Twitter. Twitter still, it's a company, it's got a board. He may not be able to exercise unilateral control of Twitter's policy. We don't know what's gonna happen with that. But if Trump is placed on the loose in charge of a social media platform with that level of public readership, he has no self-restraint. But we know that on January 6th, when he was finally convinced after hours of destruction and mayhem to borrow a word from all state at the Capitol, he was finally convinced by some of his closest advisors to tell people to go home. The very next sentence said, we love you. There is no question that these are his people. That there is no question that he wanted to be there. He wanted to be part of it. Right. Additionally, psychologically, he needs to be publicly part of that violent disassembly of American democratic institutions and protection of the public's right to choose who govern and the processes that manage that. That's what we're looking at. Okay, we've run out of time, but Jay, you wanna tackle the same question. What does Trump do if he gets access to his Twitter account and how does he leverage that, that new bully pulpit to blunting and to be indicted? Or does he even work? Well, one of the scariest things that's come out in the past week is that Elon Musk says he wants to complete the deal. Yeah. Okay, and if you recall a month or two ago before he backed out of the deal, he said that if he succeeded in the deal, he was going to put Trump back on Twitter. What he said in English, no uncertain terms. So I think it's probable that Musk is going to do the deal. And I think it's therefore probable that he's gonna get Trump, gonna allow Trump to come back on. You can say board of directors, Chuck, but I'm not sure the board of directors has much to say against a guy like Trump. And Musk, the owner of all the stock, who can reorganize the board of directors. I shouldn't say all the stock, but enough of the stock to be able to reorganize the board of directors on a fine Tuesday afternoon. So, okay, I think we have to start with the assumption that Trump will get back on. And the answer to your question then is how can he parlay that? Oh, hey, we've been watching him parlay that for years. We've been watching him parlay that even without Twitter. If he has Twitter back, oh my God, OMG. He's gonna have this huge platform, this bully pulpit that is multiples of what he has now. In fact, multiples of what he has ever had. It's going to be a tremendous problem for the country, for truth, for the democratic republicans. It's gonna be a flaming disaster and he knows how to do it. I can't predict exactly how, but if we sat in a room for a while and just looked at his track record, he just do the same playbook again, but on steroids. Easy. Mueller investigation comes to mind, easy. By the way, there's one point you raised. I want to talk about it. That is, so he makes these statements, Cynthia talks about it. He makes these statements at these rallies and all that. And they're not true. They're high in the sky, wishful thinking or lies. Well, usually lies. And that's an admission of some sort. Well, it's not under oaths, remember. The commentators keep reminding us it's not under oaths. It's only useful, don't you agree, Chuck, as a cross examination point? At your rally in Kansas, didn't you say this? Okay, and then ask him. But if you relied only on this statement, wild unhinged statements that he makes that these rallies, I'm not sure, without the power of cross examination, I'm really not sure if that's not under oaths. They not go that far. It may not be enough. And if I am very conservative, Merrick Garland, I'm probably gonna be looking for something better. Good point, great point, Jay. Thank you. We're gonna wrap this up. So Cynthia, your last thoughts about the topic. Okay, I don't think it's just Trump we have to worry about if Elon Musk gets a hold of Twitter because all of the people that were commenting on Trump's posts, all the proud boys and all the stuff that they did on Twitter and Facebook to organize the January 6th, they're all coming back too, right? So I know we often focus on Trump and like in my last statement too, I wanna make sure that we remember we're at risk to way more than just that. So I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna be in my quotes, right? It's not an exact quote, but it is an excerpt from the most recent Heather Cox Richardson thing that Chuck sent around. That was really a good one too. I thank you for doing that. But I pretty much try to read her as much as I can, right, because she's recommended her to everyone. She gives a really good, easy to understand straight to the heart of things, non-partisan look at what's going on. So she writes, the cons of GOP control. Biden can spell out the chaos that awaits if Republicans win even one House of Congress or take key jobs responsible for running our elections. A GOP House can shut down the government, thereby suspending aid, for example, to Ukraine or funding for infrastructure or drug cost plans, force a default on the debt impeach Biden as they have threatened to do or cabinet officials and inevitably engage in mind numbing hyperbolic investigations. This is something we all need to remember. We are at great risk to weigh more than just Trump the individual. We are at risk to Trump the, well, I don't even know what to call it. The mega GOP, I think that's the word I'm trying to use. But I'm going by what I've seen over the years and how terrified I am if they do get back in power. And I am not the only one worried. And when we've got people like Dr. Richardson coming out and telling us stuff like this, it's time to sit down and listen. Thank you, Cynthia. Chuck, your brief wrap up. I think we've covered pretty much everything today. Wanted to thank you, Cynthia, Jay, for great perspectives and insights. Live forward to more of those next time and turn it back to you. Okay, thank you very much, Chuck. Jay, you get the last word. Only to say that every day goes by and we try to connect these dots and it actually gets scarier for the democracy and for our human rights, civil rights and political rights. And I'm very worried that this is going to come to a huge and very unpleasant conclusion on election day and on January one. Alrighty. I'd like to thank our guests, Chuck Crumpton, co-host Jay Fidel and contributor Cynthia Lisa and Claire for joining us on American Issues Take One. I'm Tim Mapachello, your host. Join us next week. And until then, Aloha. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.