Recently, on Out of Frame, we talked about how jazz, blues, and soul musicians led the charge for civil rights and racial integration in America. But that was far from the only time artists have had to stick up for individual rights. We flash forward to the 1980s, when a group of well-connected busybodies, I mean fine upstanding ladies who called themselves the Parents' Music Resource Center, launched an attack on recording artists like Prince, ACDC, Madonna, and Death Leopard. The PMRC was founded by a group of four women, infamously known as the Washington Wives, and as the moniker suggests, they were all married to powerful figures of national politics. They were Sally Neveas, wife of a former Washington DC city council chairman, Pam Hauer, the wife of a successful DC area realtor, Susan Baker, wife of Treasury Secretary James Baker and Tipper Gore, wife of then-Senator and everybody's favorite Emperor of the Moon, Al Gore. At its peak, the group consisted of just 22 members, and yet, through their influence, they were able to get national attention and even congressional hearings to combat lyrics and music videos they believed were corrupting America's youth. Now, given the musical landscape we all live in today, it's hard to imagine recording artists like Cindy Lauper being considered porn rock, but in 1985, that's exactly what the PMRC claimed. In fact, that year, they released a list of songs they called the Filthy 15, a group so objectionable that something absolutely had to be done to protect parents and kids from their pernicious influence. For the children. Okay, fine, you say. Parents groups are always finding new things to worry about and it's everybody's right to decide what their kids get exposed to, so what's the big deal? The big deal is that even though the PMRC publicly asked record companies to voluntarily replace warning labels on their albums, their proximity and connection to government made it clear that just like with the movie rating system established in 1968 or the Comics Code Authority in 1954, if the industry leaders didn't regulate themselves, politicians were all too happy to step in and do it for them, stomping on the First Amendment in the process. To that end, in September 1985, the United States Senate's Commerce, Science, and Transportation Committee held a hearing on behalf of the Parents' Music Resource Center, quote, on the subject of the content of certain sound recordings and suggestions that recording packages be labeled to provide a warning to prospective purchasers of sexually explicit or other potentially offensive content. And surprise, one of the key senators overseeing the hearing was Al Gore. Al Gore and his cohorts like Senator Paula Hawkins and my own former Senator Jim Exon led the charge. Playing music like Van Halen's Hot for Teacher and Twisted Sisters, We're Not Gonna Take It, accusing these songs of glorifying suicide, rape, and sadomasochism. How do you think there is so much sadomasochism and bondage in some of these new songs? They invited psychologists and musicologists to come talk about the influencing power of music and use their testimony to say that parents just had no possible way of ever knowing what their kids were listening to, and that exposure to this devil music would create Satan-worshipping, violent, drug-abusing children around the country. Seriously. Keep in mind, this was 1985, not 1885. Fortunately, in order to balance the hearings, the Senate committee also invited a handful of recording artists to testify, including John Denver, Frank Zappa, and Twisted Sister frontman Dee Snyder. If you watch the hearings, which I encourage everyone to do in full, it's clear that the senators were expecting John Denver to be on their side, for Zappa to come off like a weirdo, and for Snyder to be an incomprehensible troglodyte. But in a shocking twist, these three men spoke as eloquently on behalf of free speech as anyone has ever done. Zappa came out of the gate hard. The PMRC proposal is an ill-conceived piece of nonsense which fails to deliver any real benefits to children, infringes the civil liberties of people who are not children, and promises to keep the courts busy for years dealing with the interpretational and enforcemental problems inherent in the proposal's design. It is my understanding that, in law, First Amendment issues are decided with a preference for the least restrictive alternative. In this context, the PMRC demands are the equivalent of treating Dandruff by decapitation. John Denver expressed serious concerns that any kind of rating system would be subject to political tampering and would be controlled by people who misunderstand or misinterpret the music they're rating. These hearings have been called to determine whether or not the government should intervene to enforce this practice. Mr. Chairman, this would approach censorship. May I be very clear that I am strongly opposed to censorship of any kind in our society or anywhere else in the world. I've had, in my experience, two encounters with a sort of censorship. My song, Rockin' Mountain High, was banned from many radio stations as a drug-related song. Mr. Chairman, the suppression of the people of a society begins, in my mind, with a censorship of the written or spoken word. It was so in Nazi Germany, it is so in many places today where those in power are afraid of the consequences of an informed and educated people. In a mature and incredibly diverse society such as ours, the access to all perspectives of an issue becomes more and more important. Those things which in our experience are undesirable generally prove to be unfurthering and sooner or later become boring. That process cannot and should not be stifled. And Snyder presented the case that, far from being pernicious, his music and his stage presence was about freedom of expression and kindness while outing himself as a T-Total in Christian, a loving husband and father who took the responsibility for raising his own kids very seriously. I don't advocate sexism, the use of drugs, and drinking, so I don't write about those things. I only write about things I believe in. As I said, I pride myself on writing lyrics that are not offensive and that are saying something positive. Most of my songs are about personal freedom. So when someone says there's a song about sadomasochism and bondage, when someone says we're not going to take it, it's violent lyrical content, which is what it's been rated for, yes, I'm defensive, yes, that gets me angry. I'm trying to get adults to see that heavy metal is not totally a bad thing. At one point, Senator Slade Gordon accuses Frank Zappa of not understanding the difference between government action and private action and claims that no one is pushing legislation. But watch how quickly the thin pretense of voluntary action falls away. I simply want to say to you that I suspect that unless the industry quote cleans up their act and I use that end quote word again, there's likely to be legislation and it seems to me that it would not be too far removed from reality or too offensive to anyone if you could follow the general guidelines right wrong or indifferent that are now in place with regard to the movie industry. I can't help but hear Exxon's words and think about how much it actually sounds like organized crime.  If it's clear to everyone in the music industry that if they didn't give in to the Washington wives, their politically powerful husbands would make life a lot worse for recording artists using the law. That's not really voluntary, is it? And here's the thing, the PMRC did have a point. Kids are influenced by the music and entertainment they're exposed to and of course it's difficult for parents to vet every song their children are listening to. But if Tipper Gore and her friends were really just going for voluntary action, they could have created a publication that warned people about the albums and songs they thought were dangerous or highlighted uplifting music the kids should be listening to. They could have spent their efforts creating value for parents like consumer reports and car and driver do for their readers. But they didn't do that. Instead, thanks to their position and political connections, they got the federal government to drag musicians in front of Congress, conducting hearings and threatening legislation, all while claiming that they were just looking out for the best interests of children. And maybe that's the actual lesson here. There's a school of economics called Public Choice that looks at political action with the same kind of clear-eyed skepticism as we tend to look at other areas of life. It's tempting to think that politicians are always working for the well-being of everyone or at least all of their constituents, but in reality, they're just human beings. Often self-interested, acting mainly on behalf of themselves and their friends. Or their wives. It didn't matter to the PMRC or their powerful friends in the Senate if their actions might come at the expense of thousands of artists and business owners, didn't matter to them if they cost consumers billions of dollars by requiring more lawyers, censors, and more printing expenses on every album. They were prepared to go a lot farther than that, including pushing legislation that directly violated the First Amendment of the Constitution. And if you listened to the PMRC hearings, they had some support in the Senate to do it. In the days just before the hearings, the recording industry caved to the Washington Wives' demands and started putting parental advisory stickers, the tipper sticker, on albums they deemed to be offensive. But in an ironic twist, sales of albums with explicit lyrics actually went up after the hearings and the parental advisory warnings. And they outraged artists, spurring the rise of a new wave of anti-censorship recordings and statements from across the musical spectrum, with contributions from punk bands like No Effects, the Ramones, and the Sex Pistols, to hip-hop and rap artists like Ice T and NWA, to rock bands like Sonic Youth. After all that effort, including direct threats of legislated censorship, the Parents' Music Resource Center got exactly what it wanted and yet created a massive cultural and artistic backlash against censorship at the same time. What's troubling now is that it seems as if censorship is once again on the rise, but this time it's not coming from social conservatives or uptight school moms, it's coming from young people and their professors who believe that controlling the language people are allowed to hear will be able to stop the spread of ideas they don't like. But thinking about what happened in the 80s with the PMRC hearings gives me hope. The enemies of free speech may sometimes win the upper hand, but censorship cannot survive for long, no matter how well intended it might be. The kids just ain't gonna take it. Thanks for watching this episode of Out of Frame, so what do you think about censorship and free speech? Leave a comment below and let's start a conversation. And if you want to see more video essays like this, hit that subscribe button and check us out at FeeOnline on YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. See you next time.


A lot. I've got a photo that I've used called Powerful Steps, and Powerful Steps is a very simple frame, but it's actually in the city center. And it was quite funny because a lot of people, if you look at the composition, there's a crosshair in the city when you're looking down near the glass bridge, there's a crosshairs, and I was trying to get someone in the middle of that. But people thought it was because you wanted them in the middle, but it wasn't, but the pavers at the base of that are all cracked. And the idea of that thing is, because I'm trying to say more, the idea for me was you don't know the power of the steps you take until you take them, because this person's walking away and all the cracked pavers and everything in front of us clear. But people look at it and they're like, oh, it's nice to get them in the crosshairs. That took me three and a half hours just to get that A to get it clear and B to get someone in the middle. You were just waiting. It's a random thing, isn't it? Yeah, like I have, I must have 30 photos of people in every quadrant, different people in the frame, slightly askew, and none of them made the cut. None of them I've seen a lot of day. Because that's not what I was trying to say with that. I was trying to show I wanted someone at the end of the cracked paver because it's almost a metaphor because the idea is, as long as, like for me, as long as I'm trying to get across something that in turn will end up benefiting someone, because that's the whole point of it, right? You want art that invokes something. So for me, it's like, if someone looks at that in years to come and it's like, just an analogy for starting something that they're afraid to do. But that's my job done 10-fold. Welcome to The Sebo Show. We have an OG friend of mine who has been in and around Perth for a very long time. Well before, I thought I was any good at video, still debatable now. I was taking photos for fun and one day, it's Neil Hawkins Park up in Joondalup. I was there one morning catching the sunrise, taking some snaps, and this Irish fella came along and was showing me doing his thing with it as well. He had far less hair back then. And now he's here. He's come a long way. His name's Adam Kenner and he's from Ireland. So again, if you cannot understand him, just like the Scottish Lady Jill, there are subtitles on the YouTube version of this podcast. Hang on, man. Yeah, good. I was going to say, my accent's not that strong. For me, it's not. Yeah. For me, it's not.  So it depends on who I talk to. It depends on how strong it is. It's definitely better than someone from Glasgow. Oh yeah. Yeah. The Glasgow accent is very. It's very hard. Once he understands it, it is great. But it does take a while. So where were you born? Whereabouts in Ireland were you born? I was born in the middle of Ireland. So in a very, very small town called Edenderry, which is in County Oflea. So Ireland has kind of got like 32 small states instead of like WA's massive split. But in them has got like towns within them. So I'm from Edenderry in County Oflea, which is like an hour in land of Dublin. Excellent. And when did you move to Australia? I moved here in the end of 2007. So my parents decided to open, take me and my sister over here. We had family over here. We visited the year before. And they kind of decided to give a go at it and see if they enjoyed it. And yeah, I've been here ever since. Love it. And your passion for photography grew when? Travel. So 2016, I did my first trip through Europe. So I booked a top-deck trip, pretty much that most Australian people either do a top-decker or contiki through Europe. And that was more just kind of like the intro. I bought a camera for that. I had little Olympus EM5 Mark II with the kit lens because I knew what I was doing. Shot the entire trip in JPEG, got some absolutely beautiful photos that we'll never see a lot of day because of that. And then came back six months later. Didn't really touch the camera. Went to Vietnam in that December and did Singapore with a couple of friends. And then after that, I kind of had this kind of thought process. When you're away, you do everything. You see everything. You go everywhere. But you don't do it in your own the place you live. So it became an idea of go out, see as much as I could. So pretty much from Yanship down to Margo River and out to York, I spent almost most of that just going to these places just to see them. But then it eventually started to change where it became more about photographing them than it did about just seeing them. So then I'd start to go to these places at sunrise to get better photos. And lo and behold, I think it was the 30... I know it was the 31st of May in the start of 2017 that I was taking a photo at Crawley Boat Shed, just like everyone back in the day. But it was just the most beautiful sunset I had set the sunrise. Sorry. It was the most beautiful sunrise. I set up this photo, took this photo and it was just a feeling I'd never gotten before. And then from that, I've just been hooked. Amazing. It's changed a lot, but from that moment, I've just been in. Yeah. And you were traveling. You were taking photos of inanimate objects over a beautiful scenery. Would you say now you're focusing more on people in your photos, specific subjects? It very much depends on what I want the outcome to be. So in a lot of times, it is people in place, but most of the time that's either to enhance the story I'm trying to say within a photo or it's to kind of show something. So people are great for scale, but then also people make a place. So it's very much dependent on the what I'm trying to say it could be a project, it could just be I'm working towards an exhibition or it could just be travel. So if I'm traveling, then I get a mix of you need landscape because you're trying to show the place, but the people are a huge part of that. So you almost need people just to showcase them on their own and then you need people in place and just doing what they do in daily life. And then that kind of led to a little bit more of a street photography focus for a while. And then that built a lot more with people in place. So particularly around Perth, I've shot Perth for years when I've been here and it's incredible, but it's very much about what I'm trying to say with what I'm taking. And sometimes I'm just going in and I'm just swinging and seeing what I hit. But that normally is either the start of something or in the middle of something. And as I work towards the overall thing I'm trying to say. Yeah. And that's evolved over the last few years. And you're mostly almost exclusively shooting black and white now. If you look at my Instagram and my website, yes, I mean, I've shot as a commercial photographer for two and a half years and I've never shared a black and white photo in that time because I'm shooting for someone. So the main reason for black and white and it still stands true is when I'm looking at a single image or a collection of images is what I'm trying to say with it. So unless color is adding to the story, it's detracting from the image. And what I mean by that is people look at stuff, but they see in color. So if you've got a small smile in the back of a photo, but it's in relation to someone falling over, that you're a lot less likely to notice the smile in the corner because you're immediately drawn into the abundance of stuff coming from that photo. Whereas in black and white, the only thing that you see is what's in the photo because it's the only things that are available in that are the shadows, the highlights and the people in the actual frame. So unless the, as I say before, unless the color adds to it, I feel like it detracts from it. So I've shared photos in color and shared the same photos of black and white to see and people saw stuff a lot clearer and a lot quicker in a black and white photo, but they almost had to be pointed it out in color. So particularly for exhibition stuff, because a lot of my exhibition stuff is standalone images that take me hours of being in one spot, but it's because I'm trying to curate something. So I want to make something that someone looks at and either gets or in enough time, they see something there, but they're just looking at it rather than looking, going, that's a beautiful color. Like landscape photos are incredible and there are people who do it so, so well, but those landscape photos are beautiful. They're incredible, but the clouds and the colors and the sunrise, the sunsets make those photos. But if you're trying to get across a narrative, if you look at old school straight photographers and old school pioneers like Henry Couture-Bresson is a great example. That man essentially founded straight photography, but his photos have so much in them and they're not color based. And then that transition happened kind of in the seventies a little bit more and there are people who do it excellently. Like they do it so well, like Joe Mayerowitz, nowadays you've got Matt Stewart. There's a lot of guys who are pioneers in that field, but I haven't got to the point where I'm trying to tell a narrative in that store, in with color. And if I do, by all means, I mean, I take a lot of color photos. I just don't have the project that I want to share that across yet. So that's where I'm trying as long as I'm hitting story, black and white or color. As long as the color adds to it, it doesn't matter for me if it's there. So when you say you're in a one spot for up to hours? Yeah, I've done. I've gone back to sports days on days and just waiting for the frame because I've seen something and mainly it's composition for me. So I see a composition and then I just trying to build on that, whether it's light or timing or your time. Some of my best photos happened on a whim. Some of them are happened by mistake. But 90% of the images I show are curated. When I say curated, I'm not setting anything up, but I'm in the spot waiting for the moment. So I see the spot. I wait for the story to reveal itself almost in the sense of it could be a case of showing scale or just having one person walk past and the stride in comparison to the rest of the frame. You can do great things if you set that up, especially in around the city. If you're trying to show business and the nine to five in the grind, you can set that up quite easily, but just being there and seeing people rush past and getting like a slow mo of someone blasting past.   You are basically drawing someone's eye to see exactly what you want them to see. Does it feel more magical when the curation in your mind comes off obviously naturally rather than staged or even photoshopped? Well, photoshop is different, right? Because photoshop is a different realm. So there's people who do photoshop very well and there's no qualms about that. Like every level of that is different. It's just not what I do. And there's people who are excellent at it and kudos to them. I can't do it. I'm useless with photoshop. I used to like get people to photoshop stuff if I had to do. I remember a photo. I played around with one of your images years ago. I don't want to be good at photoshop. It's not something that like it kills me to go on photoshop. Many YouTube searches I've had to do for just removing backdrops is like for cut out. It's just insane. But that's not what I do. So like, do I prefer a moment caught? Yeah, 100%. But there's also people who set moments up that are incredible and there's nothing wrong with that. But it's just what they do. And if they can get across because the whole point for me is it's what you're trying to say. Yeah, I think my analogy for that is like fishing. For me, it's more fun fishing somewhere trying to catch the specific fish naturally without using all these nets and boats and stuff. Just cast it out and get that magical moment. And there's other people that fish farm and I'm not shitting on them. It's what they do. Well, if your goal at the end of the day is to try a fish you've never tried, it doesn't matter how it was caught to the person who's trying it right. Exactly. So like, that's the thing is as long as you're getting across, in my opinion, the only thing that matters is what we say. And if you're saying something and it's story element and you're actually getting across more and your intention is this, you go for gold. It's not my place to do anything with anyone. Like, I don't throw stones at glass houses because people could do the same to me. Yeah. How many times have you curated a moment? And the moment was almost perfect. It was a millimeter off. And you're just like, no, keep going. A lot. I've got a photo that I've used called Powerful Steps. And Powerful Steps is a very simple frame, but it's actually in the city center. And it was quite funny because a lot of people, if you look at the composition, it's there's a crosshair in the city when you're looking down near the glass bridge as a crosshairs. And it was, I was trying to get someone in the middle of that. But people thought it was because you wanted them in the middle, but it wasn't. But the pavers at the base of that are all cracked. And the idea of that thing is because I'm trying to say more, the idea for me was, you don't know the power of the steps you take until you take them because this person's walking away and all the cracked pavers and everything in front of us clear. But people look at it and they're like, oh, it's nice to get them in the crosshairs. That took me three and a half hours just to get that A to get it clear and B to get someone in the middle. Like you were just waiting. It's a random thing, isn't it? Yeah. Like I have, I must have 30 photos of people in every quadrant, different people in the frame slightly askew and none of them made the cut. None of them have seen a lot of day because that's not what I was trying to say with that. I was trying to show I wanted someone at the end of the cracked paver because it's almost a metaphor because the idea is as long as like for me, as long as I'm trying to get across something, that in turn will end up benefiting someone because that's the whole point of it, right? You want art that invokes something. So for me, it's like, if someone looks at that in years to come and it's like just an analogy for starting something that they're afraid to do. That's my job done tenfold. Yeah. Like I can go. In perpetuity as well. Yeah. Like I will never be able to say what anybody gets from it, but I can create it in the most, the only way I know how to give them a chance that if people actually sit in that, they can get something more. Yeah. But it's not my place. If they do, I'm not telling anyone to like, but I'll give you every chance that if you do get something from that, if one person out of 10 looks at it and gets something brilliant, yeah. And then my, then my job was worth it because I, people got something more from it. And that's the point of when you're making something.  Um, well, for me, if you go through, uh, I think I had a massive breakthrough and it was probably not long after actually we, we caught up when I first met Gav through you. Gav. Gav, where I get there. Um, was not long after that, me and him did a course by a photographer called Finn Beals and Finn Beals, the commercial photographer, but his entire premise is storytelling. And it completely changed everything for me because it was the realization that everything that holds true and carries weight in every aspect is story. So whether you want to go down the religious route, whether you want to go down music, the best albums from start to finish are a narrative books, like everything that carries weight is story based. And it's very, very simple that that is the thing that carries weight. So people always go tell stories. Well, that's great. But what does that mean? It means what you're trying to say, it's just say something more, just carry more weight. And for most people like Finn, for example, in that workshop was just, he was creating a full scene. There was a hundred images that he shot for a brand. And I remember distinctively it was, uh, for a Land Rover brand, but the Land Rover didn't appear in his photo sequence for the first 20 images because it was about the journey that the surfer was on at that time curating the board and then eventually taking the car to being able to find the perfect wave. But it was just like the entire story was incredible. Like, well, to be fair, he's in my opinion, one of the best photographers in the world. So his shots are incredible. But the whole sequence was just one narrative. It was like watching like a movie where you cut out scenes, just putting it together, like a sticker book. It was just, it was incredible. And that for me just changed everything. So then you start looking at things a little bit differently. So like, why do I listen to the music I listen? Why do I like the books I like? And then you start to break it down. You're like, for example, people who love like fiction books. What is it about the fiction books? Do you like it's the story? Is the character you're following? Is it the character you're trying to be like the plot? Yeah, correct. It could just be so many elements, but that all came down through one basis, which was story. What about when you've created that story and your audience doesn't get it? Not my job. So that has no, that's a big thing for me in the sense of so my first really big exhibition was the start of last year. And to be honest with you, every single realm of it was a huge success in what it was like, but then I had to read what I'd started up with. It was people coming and getting something from it. So I had created a narrative. It was about, it was called finding your way. So the idea was stepping away from the path you're on to having the courage to step more into the path you want to be on. It was quite simple, but with images, it made like it made a lot more sense because it followed on. But when I left, I think I saw two pieces or three pieces out of 16 quite large pieces. But immediately the narrative changed for me then, which was, oh, it didn't land well. But at 140 people show up in one space to just come and look at something that I had created. It couldn't have been more of a success in any other realm, but how I was looking at it changed that for me. So I had to be very careful not to change the narrative too much of what I viewed. It has because I have no control over what someone gets from it, but I have every control over what I put out so people can get something from it. Like the best musicians don't create music because it's what they want to hear. The best musicians create because it's stuff that happened to them and they sing essentially truth. And like that stood the test of time for years. So if you can do that as an artist, it will land because we all are very related. That's a huge thing I found while traveling to a lot of different places. Stuff that makes people smile here, makes people smile there, stuff that makes people cry, makes people cry. People are very related. There's universal languages across. Like I didn't speak one bit of Vietnamese when I did a month there. And I was able to communicate with everyone just by putting up a hand and showing a camera and got some of my favorite photos I've ever taken. But I have no control over how that landed or who it lands with. So I can't worry about like why it's hitting them, but I can worry about why I'm creating it. So how do you, and this goes into now the professional side of photography, you have a passion, you have a message that you want to showcase. People come to see your work, but they don't buy your work. And it's, you know, and it comes with time as well. And that's the byproduct. The byproduct. It has to be the byproduct. I haven't answered myself of my journey, but I want to hear your answer of how do you survive with a passion like that, being able to monetize it if you're not monetizing it. You mentioned commercial photography before. That's obviously paid work. How do you make sure that you're still lighting the fire? Probably a very hard question to answer at the moment, because it's something I'm still going through. So just tell me what you're thinking. So for me, a long bit of that was it started, you start with like, if we go down the road of what I started, I started doing landscape photography, right? Then you foolishly try and sell landscape photos. Now, and I say foolishly because you're like, man, if I showed this, people will buy it.  Like it's, you don't exactly have the chances of correct. Then you go into that and it's low and behold, I traveled a lot and did a lot. And it was only when I stepped into the commercial realm that I realized how little I knew about photography. Now, a huge shout out. One of, in my opinion, still best commercial photographer on Perth Travis Hadoe learned everything I possibly could from that man, the immense amount of gratitude. And thankfully, I still call him a very, very good friend. But I learned so much just about how to post people, how to talk to people, take out the front photography fundamentals. I knew nothing. I'd never worked with a light. I'd never worked with a studio. I'd never taken a corporate professional headshot. And I was expecting to do well in another realm when I didn't know most of the things you need for just photography in general, because all of those skills translate to what I do now. So if I'm taking a photo of someone in the street, I backlight them rather than like having like horrific shadows or front lighting them and then being blinded and having a horrific light on that like simple things that I didn't necessarily do back then. But the skills I learned from that kind of transition. And you ask, it's like, how do you go about that? It's something I'm still working on. So like, we've met, we've talked about this. I actually am going traveling in a couple weeks to pursue more of my stuff. So at the moment, it's not something I can answer. But apart from the fact that I've got almost blind faith that I think it will work because my stuff has landed here. It has landed in a small way. But Perth is also not exactly the greatest photography art market unless it's a huge market. If you do blue ocean photos, like incredible, you do incredible work like that. And there's some incredible people who do great work all over Australia. That's not what I do. Like I had someone walk into my exhibition of black and white street photos and go, have you ever thought about taking photos of Quokkas? And I'm going, I have, but it's not what I do. Yeah, you can't follow trends if it's not your passion. Correct. And like if you ask yourself, how am I doing that? I don't really have that moment. But apart from the fact that I'm trying a lot. And that kind of goes into like, I know it'll work. Like I'm pitching to I'm currently sending emails left, right and center to insured designers, curators in the place I'm going, will it work? I don't know, but I have to try. Like because you can have the most talent in the world, but without action, which is why I stepped away from the commercial stuff. More so because I genuinely believe my stuff comes with when I travel. Like I get, it's very hard for me to get inspired in Perth. It doesn't have population. Like in terms of street density, in terms of like compare Perth City to New York, they're not even in the same planet. They're just chalk and cheese. Because you just don't have those moments that spring on. So like I've spent, like I did an exhibition and it was all photos of Perth, but most of them in the city. So the compositions I have, I've walked Perth City to death. I'm finding Fremantle is a bit more vibrant. Fremantle is, but again, it's, it doesn't strike it for me. Like I went to, like I've done last year, I was in Dublin middle of the year and Dublin's a much smaller city in terms of, there's no high rise. So it's a much like country town city and how it's like set up. It's beautiful, but all old buildings. But I walked for, like I, I walked for two days around that. And I just was just at all because it was just so busy. There was so much going on. There's so many places to go. I got, I get the same in certain cities, but I struggle, I really struggle in Perth at the moment to get in that groove, but I have before. And like the only thing that gets it now is if there's marches or, um, Sam's tours, Sam's tours. But if you were to go down like marches, even the rallies, protests, they're great. They are a straight photographer's dream because you can get right to people's faces and A, they don't care. B, they want to be photographed, but then you can also compose stuff. So you can get really emotive, beautiful photos that only came about because of that. So there's a lot of passion. If you curate it well, you can convey that passion, which is job done. Like that's, that's all you have to do is we can catch something that someone gets result. That's it. Exactly. So yeah. So I don't know if I've got it. I don't have it figured out. I don't, I won't claim to, but I'm trying. So I'll let you know in six months when I go back and see how. You mentioned you were doing a few emails pitching to different, what was it, hotel groups and things like that? Interior designers mainly. Interior designers. I think they're the biggest market if I want to get into the realm of prints as one avenue, for sure. Yeah.   But yeah, it's an interesting kind of leap of faith because a lot of people nowadays because photography is cool, they want to become photographers, but they don't realise it comes with a lot of time, effort and you can't chase the money first. I think the biggest thing I would say to that is a lot of the people who are becoming photographers are becoming photographers for today. And I mean that in the sense of they create short form. So like they're creating incredible work and I, and like there's examples of it everywhere where people create incredible work, but they're not creating projects or bodies. And you go back through the years, people were just shooting projects. So like Joel Meyerowitz is a great example. That man, during the travesty, travesty, that's the one that's combined the both during the travesty of the 9-11 aftermath, they cut off that entire area to the public, no press or nothing. And Joel Meyerowitz actually went in because he snuck in and did this for a year to document. And it wasn't to document anything, but just to document the firies, the place, the rescue, and then the whole lot. But that ended up now, years later, that's in museum in New York. But that was never supposed to happen. Like they banned every bit of that. But that was a project that he did for a year, 12 hours a day, like in 15K, because he, that's his city, that's his thing. And it was insane. And he just looked and was like, well, if no one's doing it, I have to. But it was a project.  But the best example is you even look at small thing like a family album, right? A family album is just a project. Because initially, if you make that now, let's say you were to look back at your wedding album, right? That lands and you're like, oh, this is great. But you look at that same wedding album in 20 years time with kids looking at it. And they look at you in different line. That's a different project then because now it carries a lot more weight. That's what that's how I sell wedding albums. Just just that line. Correct. That's that's what photography is in its nutshell, in a nutshell, that is photography in an element. It's evoking something. So if people are going out now and they're doing this, great. But say more, do try and show more say more and be more because that carries through when people see it. Yeah, you gotta you gotta have a like a mission for that project, that aim. I had a quote on my Instagram for the longest time ever since I started, like when I started photography is a photograph is a ticket to a memory otherwise forgotten. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And that that's what you're saying with the project stuff. I do. I do also an anger point that this is very specific to what I'm saying as well. Like there's a lot of work that is designed because in modern day age, if it doesn't get shared immediately, it doesn't exist, right? So if you photograph an event today, tomorrow that event doesn't exist, doesn't exist for another 365 days, right? So that's a different element. I'm not saying if you want to get into photography, it's about that but personal stuff more so. So if you're trying to create art, that's not based on today. That's based on those people who are from like 15 years and then they share it and it becomes this body. Like it carries like Joe Greer has just come back from India. It's his third trip to India and he shoots on film. So he's got no photo shared yet, but he's planning on doing a book, but it's three trips to India to compile this book. And it's it looks, I know I'm going to buy it before I've already seen videos and I know I'm going to buy it because this works amazing. So I just know that this is going to be one narrative from start to finish that I'll look at once a year, once every six months, once every two months to get inspiration just to kind of look and even escape into it. It's just it's what it's for. It's just to draw and give more. Yeah. One of my favorite projects of the last decade has been humans of New York. Oh, incredible. The book on the, I don't know if you saw it on the table. Yeah. Beautiful. On the coffee table. Yeah. And it's not over polished photos. They're real, but, but it's not just a photo. It's what is said alongside it. You know, they say Instagram and captions and everything, but I'm there to go, okay, what is that emotion in that face that he captured telling me? And then I can actually read about it because he interviewed them. And then that's what I do now. Obviously the interview stuff. And I've, I've, I want to come back to photography. I want to come back to it as a passion, as a hobby. I don't really want to do it commercially anymore.  Do you remember him? Yeah. Do you know what he did? I know he disappeared, but I don't know what he did. So he sold his MySpace thing for like 100, 200 million. I forgot what it was. It's a lot of money. Trump changed back then. It's a lot of money back then though. But yeah, he just became a traveling and photography. And his photo, his photographs are amazing, you know? And I'm just like, that is, that is goals, just to go somewhere and capture images before COVID, before the whole TikTok thing for me. I started traveling because I got my degree in teaching. I had a salary. I had a safety net. I was like, brilliant. I can do my hobby.   And that's... Because then you change it out of within yourself, right? You go, I have to shoot for this. But the reality is, is if you're just where your feet are, let's say you're in the middle of wherever, you could be in the middle of Florence, the middle of Chicago, it doesn't matter.  I like, that sounds very, very simple. But the amount of people who look but don't see is ridiculous because A, there's distractions. They immediately, they get the slightest bit on edge. And the first thing that comes out is phone. I'm the same, well aware, the definition of hypocrisy, but I'm aware of it. And I try and mitigate it. When I'm traveling, I don't. So I never before this trip, I very rarely get SIM cards or anything when I travel. So I can only be there. Even if I look on my phone, I physically can't do anything. Yeah, Wi-Fi enabled. And in places like Europe, that's everywhere. Like there's Wi-Fi everywhere. So if you ever do, like for me, I was fine. I was on my own. I was young.  But they were the best things, best places I photographed because I was there. And if you, if like a challenge, if you really want to like experience that, find somewhere that you think is a great place to take photos and sit there for an hour with no distractions and see what you see. Like I guarantee you'll see things in different light because you're being forced to look. So you then see compositions, you see shapes, you see patterns.  They're walking down holding hands. But then also that being good against the blue sky. And immediately you've got a frame. Now, whether you get it or not, that's entirely up to yourself, but you're seeing it. And the more you see, the more likely you are to capture, right? So it's just a game of nothing. Like the pros will tell you like Matt Stewart did a video recently where he was shooting film and he shot like six roles in the day. He said, if I get one hero out of that, it's good. Martin Parr, who has created like a hundred photo books, it's quite a large number. His rule is if I get 10 hero images a year, I've had a great year. Like when you think about the quantity of photos people take and to say you're going to get 10, like I did a trip to Melbourne, I got two photos that I've ever seen a lot of day. Amazing. But they were two photos that carried for me, right? Now, not to say that for everyone, but one of them took me four days to get like, I walked Melbourne for four days before I saw a frame. Got a lot of good photos. I didn't get that photo. And then when I got that photo, it was a different level. That's why I always carry my camera as much as possible, because I was in Melbourne on the weekend and the day I didn't have the camera on me, because I was there for other things. I saw a frame. So I was like, and I got my, I got my phone out. I'm like, oh, it's not the same. Oh man. So I've, a big thing I've done is I've changed setups completely. And I don't mean it like I've had this for a while. I had a friend who asked me to pick up a camera for him 18 months ago, a sill who's an incredible photographer. He lives in Denmark and he asked me to pick up it was a Fuji X100F. And I actually, then after picking that up, two days later went and bought the X100V. This thing was tiny. It was insane. I, at the time when I'm doing street stuff or if I'm out and about, I lived on EOS R with a 35mm. Great setup, everything, but it's massive, right? This thing is the exact same size and it's this big. Like it's, so from that, so when I'm traveling, this is the second triple I've gone where I'm only taking that food. Yeah. More inconspicuous as well. Yeah. Like I not only is it inconspicuous, people are less likely to see it, but it's lighter. You're not walking around with backpacks of gear. The amount of times I've walked around, like when I traveled in 2018, I would walk, take my backpack off, open it up, change your 2470 to a 7200 and take photos.  Let's get a second body. Yeah, correct. Well, yeah. First strap. Yeah. I mean, not, definitely just not with what I do, but it's a very different thing. Like I'm walking around and I've got everything in the palm of my hand. Yeah. What's your, what's your go-to lens? Well, that's a fixed frame. So the lens is on it. See, that's how much I don't know about Fuji. So Fuji X100F has built in 23mm, but because it's a crop sensor, it's a 35. Okay. So it's a 35F2, but you can get an X100, I think it's the XC100. There's an acronym on it, it's a teleconverter and it makes it a 50mm. So I technically have a 50mm and a 35mm in one camera. That's all I need. Those are my favorite two. Yeah, that's all I live on. I live on 35 and 50. So when I'm out and about doing that, it's either one or the other. And I've only got the 50 like two weeks ago for the trip I'm going on.  Straight stuff. I know, give me a range, give me a range, give me a range. It depends on the light, but I would say I sit between f2 to f5, 6. Yeah. So if I'm out and it's daylight f4 to f5, 6, if it's nighttime, to be honest with you, if I'm shooting at nighttime, I'm not there for accuracy. I'm there for like, you can play around with blur, you can play around with lights, you can play around with that.  I'm not a wildlife photographer. I don't want the cheaters eye-in focus. Like the old back in the day, most guys who had these photos that were seen by millions and carried so much weight were taken on like Canon AE1 programs that were shot at like f5, 6 with 800 ISO film. Like they were grungy, they looked it, but they were still incredible photos. Yeah. Like focus for me is not number one priority. No. If it's completely out, there's obviously a massive line. Like if I'm shooting and it's completely out in the scenes, a mess. Yeah, it's a no go. Yeah. But if I miss someone's nose and it gets their ear and I still can tell they're smiling as they're walking through the straight. You just say it's on purpose. What do you get from it? Right. And so if someone looks at it and goes, oh, that's a great photo. Look how happy they are. Yeah. It doesn't need to, that's a matter of their eyes and focus. If they can still see how happy they are, that's the point of the photo. Going back to what you said about standing there, sitting there for one hour, and I've done this many times, especially before the age of short form video came out. Yeah. And I will go back to it, but and this is something that's recently come up with mental stress and anxiety and focus and distractions and all of the above procrastination. Creators are born when there's no distractions. Oh, well, this is, this is my gripe. And sorry to the younger people who listen to this. You should be bored. Yes. And boredom is creativity. Yes. When you're young, that creates riders. That creates, that creates the curious. And as we get, as we grow up, when we lose the curiosity, we lose creativity. It's very, for me, it's very simple. So the more I've been able to be bored and I'm someone who hates to be bored, like I am always on the go. That's why photography is great because I, if I arrive in a city, I will walk 20 kilometers, no problem at all. But all I'm doing is walking and looking. That's all I'm doing. I'm so in a way, I'm bored, but I'm not bored. So it's like it spurs the creativity. But the best thing someone can do is be bored. Because immediately we have so many distractions now. And it's part of it's great because it's made the world very small. And I think part of it has a lot of negativity that will come in years to come. I think mental health is going to not be great because as young kids who've never been, like never been bored. They were burst into an iPad. Yeah, correct. That was the landing pad. Normally that you bring 20 year old problems to a 10 year old and it changes the, changes the field. Like it's, it's a very different thing. So I mean, I don't know much about that, but all like, I do know that like I've got cousins who are around that age who have got access to more than everything. Like I used to have a PlayStation 2. Like I'd play like Crash Bandicoot 3 and it was the greatest thing ever. But you could only do so much. And then you were playing an hour and then I was outside kicking a football. Yeah, like so much variety now.  Like most of the best things we did as kids came out of boredom. Yeah.  We'd create bike jumps out of nothing. Yeah. And I'd take my mum's first camera and I would be making these little shitty jpegs. But if you look at like Jack, like Jackass. Oh, yeah. Jackass was done on like old VCR videos of skate videos. Most guys who started is like, if you look, a lot of YouTubers back in the day will have started on handicams and they were skateboarders. And they had to convert those discs and tapes. And then they had to put it and put an edit and then you got this two and a half minute edit and it was like them with their friends having the best time doing nothing but just mucking around. But it was just them together. It was, there was no like he's here and he's on his phone and he's over there. And there was no, it was a lot more, in my opinion, there was parts of it, there was a lot more connected. Yeah. We're more connected now, but I think in other ways, we're stepping away from that connectivity in a way. But that's not like, that's just my two cents. Like I can't say that's coming from. No, that's fine. I do, I do believe that it, yeah, I think kids just need to be a lot more bored. Like go play and like just go outside and play. Like when's the, I think I read a stat that like 13% of American kids last year played outside. Amazing. And it was like less than 10 minutes a day. Like that's a very, that's not a lot of kids playing outside. So that's all I did when I was a kid. I'm all I did exclusively. I got kicked out of the house. Like if I was in the house, I'd be told to go outside and play. Like I spent, anytime Austin in school was, in the evenings, I was either at some sort of sport or whatever I was doing. Or I was outside playing. Yeah. Yeah. I'm thankful that I had that growing up and coming from another country as well. Yeah, yeah. I don't get wrong. I don't think it's completely, like I'm not going to sit here and go, it's completely vanished. Like I think there's a lot of people more aware of it and there's people who are doing great things and there's like, I think our generation, as they go up and start becoming parents, there's a little bit more of a change. So there's a bit there, but it'll just be interesting. It'll be like interesting to see what happens because nobody knows. Like nobody knows whether it's going to be like, hey, the older generation become more creative because they step away or they become more creative in a different way. That's a very likely possibility as well. So there's a huge thing there that people can potentially go the other way, but only Tom will tell. I've adopted a video when, I started adopting video more when Instagram stories came out. And when I, when that came out, I was like, oh, here's another Snapchat feature that I don't need. Yeah, yeah. And then we started using it more and that's what started the SEVS tours thing back then. And I started inviting one, like whoever was interested to come out and hang out. Yeah. And there was no, you know, scrolling and all of that all the time, we would just put our phones away. And by 9.30, I've got a text message from my mrs. going, are you alive still? You know? And then we would have the best time just roaming around the city, taking pictures. And then, I don't know if you remember this, but like three, four weeks later, I'd had groups of people. Yeah, yeah. We did that. I mean, the one on Elizabeth K where there was like 80 people rocked on. Yeah. But you remember the other one, one of the last ones we did, you kind of curated it. It was a Kings Park one. And we had one of your mates who did the handstands and. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That was actually where I filmed the very first ever TikTok. Oh, really? We put all our cameras on the table. Oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah. And then I just put a little pan around. It was literally exactly like I would have done it on Instagram Stories. So that's where it evolved.  I'm going to make this my first TikTok. Anyway, but yeah, we had all those kids, all those gavas there as well. And I had the best time. That was fun. And then those 80 people where Elizabeth K ended up being 120 people in Freemannel.  Yeah. So, but yeah, that could have, that could have been, I mean, that was around before cold nips, which is what you were involved with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like that, that's the movement starts with that. And people are asking me, are you going to do it again? I'm going to do it again. I'm like, I don't know because there's just going to be too many kids. Would you change anything going back? I know you can't. And it's great to say, but not. Question. Not would you change anything about it because you can't, but would you like, I've done something different to how it turned out now? Like in regards to like, let's say TikTok for example, right? Yeah. I'm no problem in saying this. I hated what you did on TikTok because it was so opposite to what I did. And I've seen this before. Oh, many people, many people. And it wasn't like, I'd not that again, it was just so far away from what I did. And like, it was so far away from what I wanted to do. But now looking at, kind of stepping to the other side, obviously it got you everything you are, but is there anything you kind of look back and go, this would have been slightly different? Uh, I would have started more of my own personal storytelling a lot sooner. I would have talked about my photography a lot sooner. But the way it unfolded has obviously been amazing. But the way that I managed to book out my commercial side of my photography business proved to be exponential, a good decision. And I didn't even know, I didn't even have any strategy or anything going forward. But now that I know what happened, I would have done it sooner.  I didn't want to. I was like, I can't be bothered. But at the same time. I actually hate doing video. Yeah. Like, it's so much, I've got friends who are professional videographers and I'll tell them, like, I get nothing from video. Yeah. I love a good transition. If you nail a good transition, well, incredible. I don't have a good transition. I've got friends who are very talented. But I've got nothing from it. Yeah. I don't consume. I'm a creator. I'm trying to consume less. So there's one I got brought recently was create, don't consume. So as a result, I've, I'm trying to like, as an example, I delete apps from my phone. So I can post on. I've deleted Facebook off my phone. Yeah. Well, I can, I can post from my MacBook. I can post from my laptop. But like, it's a different way of posting.  Yeah. You're not used to doing. Yeah. And I'm seeing your stuff where you're talking about the image now, which I can see. To be fair, the only thing that gets me through that is I treat it like it's an exhibition. Yeah. So for me, I treat it like I'm talking to a room of 10, 20, 30, 40 people. And I'm just explaining what I did. And that's the whole, but for me, I don't want it to be any more than that. Like I'm, it's a large reason why I've never went on TikTok. It's nothing to do with that. For me, TikTok was never going to be my audience. Yeah. Right. And I said that from day dawn, like I don't ever see, I don't argue how fantastic it's been for you. And then that's led to this. Yeah, yeah. No crimes about it. No crimes about it. You've done very, very well. It's, it's evident. But for me, that was never the way. And it doesn't mean I'm, I'm quite happy to, someone says, oh, that's wrong. Oh, well, that's fine. But I don't want to. Yeah. I didn't want to get to the point where it's like, oh, well, I could make a viral TikTok. Okay, great. Yeah. Like, what would that lead to? 10 website visits? Three. Yeah. One. And who's visiting? A 17-year-old kid? A 35-year-old. Whereas, like, I don't get it wrong. I could have gone into that sooner. And I probably should have. And I still probably should. But it's not what I want to do. Like, I do the videos as a way of kind of reading that in. But it's, it's, it's almost a little bit like, it's what I have to do now. Like, if I could, I would solely share photos or barely that. I wouldn't do any. I like, I wouldn't, realistically, I probably wouldn't do as much. I wouldn't be on YouTube shorts. I actually am really enjoying YouTube long format because it's a little bit different. I'm not enjoying the shorts because it's essentially an extension of Reels and TikToks. I don't necessarily hugely like Instagram in terms of what it's, because it's going into video sharing. Yeah. And for me, it was like photo. Like, I, I loved it for a photo. It was incredible. And that's what I do. It's your gallery. Yeah. Yeah. I, I've mentioned this before, but I would not be on social media if it wasn't a pivotal thing for business. To be honest with you, if I could be in social media tomorrow and had enough like word of mouth, so to speak, not even, no, it's not to do with that. If I had enough word of mouth, but the guy who prints all my photos has got very limited. The only social media he does, the repostable people tag him in. But that man is, in my opinion, one of the best printers about because- Who's that? Joe. So Joe, he does all the work for some of the galleries and the museums. But that's, he's the printer for them. But that man, social media presence, is very negligible. Yeah. But he doesn't need to, like he's had people going to him for like 15 years. Yeah. And I would love to get to a point where it's like, why can't do this and this happens? Or I can do, and that would just, that will come in time.  The only risk about that is what happens if the word of mouth starts slowing down. Yeah, oh, it's always, it's always the game. That's the only risk that I kind of look at in that way. It's, it's like, people, kids don't read the newspapers. Kids do not watch Free to Air TV.  Yeah. And on, on their scrolling apps. So, you know, and they need to discover them. But again, it's whatever your aim is. And that's the thing is, I think a lot of them nowadays, the aim for them is how can I get to a point where they want to, I think a lot of them just want to get to the point where they become big because that's what they see. Famous and successful. Yeah, but if you look at most of the people who've gone big, none of them had an intention to get big. No, exactly. I never had that. Like Casey Neistat was a great example when he went huge with vlogging and same was, same with Mr. Beast. Mr. Beast started out because he made videos for fun. Like if you took away the viewership, Mr. Beast has come out and said that he would still make videos. Yeah. Because he loves it. Yeah. Like same with Casey Neistat when he was doing vlogging. He used to daily vlogs for a long time and that blew up. He, he wasn't monetizing it for a while and then he monetized it and it was like, I think it was like six months or a year after he was massive and then eventually it just started to like flow because he'd never monetized it but he was already massive. Yeah. So like his intention was never to do that. Yeah. And that's the way the biggest success comes from. If you do it authentically, you're going to probably most likely have the success anyway. But that, and this is my problem over the last couple of years.  None of my first TikToks I remember, I told Instagram, Instagram following. And I was like, oh, might be, I'm going to be famous on TikTok one day. Better follow me now. That was just a joke. Yeah.  Now I've got kids asking me for photos every five seconds down the street. Which is cool. But again, it was never my intention. And now, now I'm like, why do you like my content? And the hardest part is they can't give me a like authentic answer. They give me like a. But the thing is, like being authentic comes from being vulnerable, right? Yeah. That becomes harder and harder. Because how much of your real self are you willing to show? Yeah. So that's the hard bit is what people see versus what you're willing to show is a big gap disparity. So a lot of them show what they want people to see. It's how people show up. People wear masks. I wear a mask. Everyone wears masks. Yeah. But it's how much can you strip them away and be you? Yeah. I'll give kudos where it's due. I could never have done what you did. Yeah. Way too introverted. Like I struggle to get, it takes me hours to film like a 30 second short.  That's this. That's. And it's just me versus me. Yeah. But eventually the battle, I win the battle, but it sometimes it takes well. But I could never have just like, like I bumped into you in the city wearing chicken twisty, like spados in the middle of the water fountain. Not if you gave me every cent that I ever could want what I have done that. Yeah, complete opposite say. Yeah, massively. And that doesn't mean it's, but the thing, the difference there was you're being you. Yeah. Yeah. And it's something I've stepped into a lot more and big help from great friends like Trav Gavin and a lot of these other people like I've got friends like Jesu. All of these people are incredible in just like allowing me to be me and then stepping into that, which is what I'm trying to do more of. Because what you see in an exhibition is me. Like it's me curating because I want to say, I want to show. But it's not about like, I want to show and sell them all. The byproduct. Yeah. And that's the other understanding like you not liking what I did initially with my TikTok stuff. And even like my other close mates who are going, I don't watch your stuff. I'm like, that's great. Yeah. Do you, are you happy for me though? And they all go, yes. I'm like, that's all I need. You know, I'm happy for everybody that's doing their own thing and being themselves. But if I can see that in their eyes, they're not being their authentic selves, we have a conversation. I'm like, are you okay? Yeah. Like, what are you doing here?  And I've had times where I didn't want to do it anymore.  Really close. And what stopped you? You know, what stopped me? The alternative, the nine to five. I can't do the nine to five. Yeah. No way. And also the impact. I'll ask a follow-up to that. Do you think you found what you are here to, are supposed to do? No. Okay. No, yeah. See, because this is a gripe that people get. People look at someone, let's say yourself, or people have asked me this and it's a much smaller scale obviously, but they're like, you're lucky you found what you want, right? I disagree. And what I mean by that is, I had 16 jobs before I found photography. Yeah. Like, I have a degree, and I did half another degree that I have never touched, nor do I ever want to touch. But if I didn't do them, it wouldn't have led me to the thing that was there. So like, same as what I think you're doing, is you have to go step one, step two, back two steps, step three. And then, like, you don't find the thing. Like, I'm still trying to find it. But it finds you when you're active and you're doing as much as you can. You've got to taste test as much as possible. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't stuck to the same thing for more than three years, four years maybe, except for my wife. She's now all-time leader on the leaderboard now. For most, well, like, no, I had a, the previous relationship was a five-year relationship. Right, okay. And then, obviously, I married Sabine three years in, or two years in. I forget. We're two years in now. Don't forget that one, mate. Yeah, yeah. I know the date's better than her. Yeah, we've been married for two years, but we've been together for five years. Right, okay. Right? So I've got that one.   But I got a skill set from that that I really like, which is educating. Educating my passions to someone else. So is that your... Is that your... That's kind of where I feel like I'm leading into. But I also get really demotivated when someone comes to me and says, Sabine, I want to be a creator. Can you teach me? I'm like, yeah, no problem. And then I'm fine-tuning it more and more the more I do it. I've got to say, can you? And what I mean about that is you can teach skill. No. But the biggest gripe with that is it comes down to themselves. But this is where I'm getting to. What I've noticed is there are naturally born creators who are amazing and talented. They don't have business skills. And that's what I want to teach them. Right? Massively. That's what I want to teach them because my fulfillment that I get from that is they're able to create a career out of it. But I also am kind of working on this thing where I keep them in check to make sure they don't go, oh, it's money now, not creativity. Because I've been down that path a couple of times now. You know, started with photography, started getting paid for it. Love weddings, started getting paid for it, obviously. And then I started not liking them as much. Started doing TikToks and collaborations. I was like, oh my God, this is great.  But these are little problems that you can fix along the way. And I've fixed them all and I'm still learning. But now I have this pool of information that I've from trial and error that a creator comes in.  Because that's the biggest waste of potential. Creators that come in get chewed out and spat out. So right now what I'm seeing is a lot of influences, quote unquote. I call them more creators because they are creators. They're influences as a byproduct. They have an audience.  And I'm telling them, make sure that you're authentic to what stickers go on your billboard.  You're going to get burned out. Exactly. So and then just like a sportsman, they have a shelf life, which is usually two to three years. They get an agency. They get a manager. Things are great. They're doing these brand deals and stuff. And then the next younger person comes in more energy than them. So wait, we don't need you anymore. Well, that's what I'm saying before about creating short form, right? So from a creative point of view, unless you're doing, like if you're doing commercial photography, it's different. If you're doing commercial videography, if you're doing that, they're very different realms. Like if you're doing weddings, that's different. But if you're doing like. Your own brand. If you're doing your own stuff, it has to last. Yeah. It has to last with you. It has to carry weight because it does if you're doing it the right way. And that's why I'm very careful with who I collaborate with because it has to be for me.  I was like, do you?  Do you? What? Yeah, it's funny. I said yes. No.  I am the most anti-vape, gambling, horse racing, consumer debt person there. You know, no way. But it's like, but these kids, they see a bag and they're like. Yeah, but this comes back to the thing of how well do people know themselves, right? Because that's what I want to help them with. How can you create what you don't know? Like, and this is, it's not just the good though. This is a guy people have. They learned that they're creative. They learned that they're talented. They learned they're good with people. But what's the other side? Yeah. Right. Are you afraid of failure? Are you? Have you got like a lot of doubt? Have you got a low self-worth? Like you need to know both because both of them complain to the like a good hand. Only if you know them. It's a hard thing to get because that's work that they will need to find out themselves. Is there actually like, are they willing to understand themselves and the reasons why they do the things they do? And that's where I'm kind of developing like a framework where I can talk to them and go, okay, so you want to be a creator like me, great, stoked for you. Where's your videos? Yeah. You know, start with something simple. Oh, I don't have a thing yet. And I'm like, well, just do it on your phone, you know. And then like, oh, how do I make money from it? I'm like, we've got to go right back. All of a sudden it's because of money. Can't help you. So I can't teach you if you don't get past that point. Yeah, yeah. Start pulling teeth. So not worth it. And I think the conversation of money is important. But further down the track. I personally don't think it can't be until a certain level. And I don't mean like skill level because if you're starting to work for people, there's things there. But within yourself, it's never the reason for dragging or going forward. But when it gets to a point that you're at a level, then it can be they go hand in hand. But it's just a conversation within yourself. Yeah, I'm not doing it for money. You're doing it. You're doing it because you love it. But you're very good at it. And as a byproduct, now, that's the triangle. That's the triangle right there. So the base of the triangle, each side here, you have the love and the talent. You're good at it and you love it. And then if you're lucky enough, the top of the triangle is the money part. But when you get to the top of the triangle, you need to make sure your base is solid. Otherwise, you're going to have mental health problems because the money is all you say at the top of the pyramid.  And that's why like you have million millionaires out there who are not happy because they've fallen out of love with it.  And these creators and influencers, they have gotten that bag or they're getting a lot of views and followers and stuff.  And this is what I'm talking about. Two to three year shelf life. I don't do that. I've been doing it for five years now.  And I still love it because I haven't pinched my hold myself for one trend I'm known for. You know, I'm very versatile and they say, say, if you don't have a niche, I'm like, yes, I do. It's me undefeatable.  Right. In a way I am, right. Don't get me wrong. That's that's correct. That's not far off. But for me, I'm not because I don't just do that. Like I've created work where it's not street photography. I've done landscapes. I like I'm a photographer. That's that's like I pigeonhole myself in that. Right. Don't niche. Don't niche. No, niche. I personally don't think I think niche is, as you said before, a shackle. I think I think the niche, the real niche is the industry. That's it. Yeah. That's it. And you can still change out of the industry. Yeah, yeah. Like if you say, oh, you're a niche and you do like what I've done the last few years and what like the company I work for, so-called studios do nowadays in the commercial photography videography. If you say we niche in that realm, I did sports photography, product photography, headshots, events, like stock imagery. We did like everything that falls under the realm of content was classified in that one bracket and that's niche. Yeah. And you're going to love all of them or you're going to try all of them and you're going to really like one because I've done all of that. Yeah. Real estate photography hated it. Just boring. Didn't hate it. Sorry, it was boring. I think I think it's there's different levels that as well. Yeah. Like real estate photography done well when it comes to beautiful design, beautiful light and beautiful, incredible. Exactly. But people are just shooting for all my house down the road to make a quick ton of bucks. It's a very different type of photography. Yeah. Like architectural photography, I actually like it. I actually like it. But again, I don't want a specific restraint on me like oh you got to get this and this and this. I want to show shapes and abstracts and things like that. Like what stops you in your tracks? Yeah. Right. Is it the detail in someone's face? Is it the way light hits? Is it a sunrise, a sunset? Is it the way the sunlight sprinkles on the ocean? Capture all of them because they hit you for a reason. So the idea is if you feel something when you take it, someone will more likely to feel something when they see it. Yeah. Right? You got to share. It doesn't matter if it's the way the light hits a building or an incredible face that just has millions of details in it. Both of them could hit someone very differently. It's subjective. But it's what you feel that makes you want to take it. That's something I've tried to step into. That's why, like I said to you before, it was May 31st, 2017. I can remember the feeling. The shot has been shared a couple of times, but it's not seen a lot today. It doesn't now anymore. But the feeling gets carried on. Yeah. My favorite feelings I had was winter 2016-17. Went to America. Went to Chicago. I went to all the cities pretty much. I don't think you did that big photo in front of the bean. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that. Yeah. That was like... And oh man. And just before the trip I cooked my wrist. I had surgery for it. So I delayed the trip by a week. Insurance claims were a nightmare. But I went out there and went around. And it was snowing and it was so cool. And the straight stuff. I'd walk through the city and just got some bangers. And then went back there 2018. My first solo trip I did. Still the only solo trip I've done. Non-business related. So I need to do another one soon. And I went to Zigzag. The Zigzag Road in San Francisco at the top. I got there about 11 p.m. And I was there till 2 a.m. And it started because it was top of the hill.  And all I was waiting for was one car to do the perfect trail. And it was like mmm.  And I got sucked in. I got sucked into that stuff. Well you do. Like we've all played the game. You get sucked. Like I remember when we thought it was peak for Perth is okay or Perth life. They share a photo. I've made it. Boom. Here we go. And you're like that's the naivety. You get two new followers. Yeah. And you're like man this doesn't translate. I remember I had a photo. Go. I think it was a photo. I took an hour and ended up having 700 likes. And internally I was screaming. Internally I was like I've made it. Here we go. And then nothing comes. You're like all right. Yeah. Why.  Yeah. You're just literally taking a good photo and expecting that to be the thing that goes everywhere. Yeah. And in very, very, very, very, very rare cases is that actually a thing. Yeah. Like but I think there's this there's this premise around like fairness when it comes to photography. Right. So let's say if you have a young kid who starts TikTok tomorrow and he's look using you as his example. Excellent at one realm averaging another for the kid in the sense of he if he has an expectation of that's what he can do but thinks it's going to happen making one video of Fortnite. They're not the same stream. Right. But then it comes into the premise of the like the world isn't supposed to be fair. No. Right. It's not one rule for all. No. So while everyone can look at you as an example they still have to do their own thing in their own way and create their own thing for themselves. Yeah. That comes just by doing it. Like there's no other way to serve it. Like go out and go and like it may take some people may take six months. Some people may take 10 years. Like there's a guy there's a guy unfortunately I'm nine times century he's passed away and I was I was fan hoe. Regard as one of the best photographers of like the early like 20th century around Hong Kong. Photos are insane in these photo books but like not many people came across his work until like the latter part of his life. Vivian Mayer is another one. Anybody wants to look up a great documentary finding Vivian Mayer. She was a female street photographer but they didn't find any of her work until somebody came across a market and found all their negatives. Yeah. I remember that. Then they process the negatives and turns out she's one of the best street photographers of the era and the only thing they know about her was the selfie she took in those photos which is just like but that was just she just worked but she loved it. She walked around in shot and never shared a thing. She loved it. Yeah. Like it's it it's just a completely different way of going about it. I started sharing because I wanted to keep a journal online for myself and later on my kids and my grandkids are going to see it and I always do that especially with like even now with TikToks I'm like what are my kids going to think about this when they see it. And that's what inspires me. Yeah. That's what inspires me to do all these and the ticket to a memory otherwise forgotten every time there's a moment I'm taking it but I'm also very careful that I'm still in the moment. Yeah. Which is an important thing. I've got this rule that when I travel somewhere for the first time the camera is not out as much. Yeah. If I go walk down the street for the first time I'm embracing it and then I'm probably racing back with the camera later. I'm like okay okay we're gonna do this and this and this. See it's for me people have this thing is like you travel like if I do a week trip I could probably in that week take 400 photos in a week and I'm there to photograph. So I'm not walking around going like I am waiting and if it works brilliant to take happy days. Like I'm not there to just create a catalog that I'm then going to sort through. It's like I'm there to capture what either inspires me what I feel something that hits me emotionally or something that draws me and that's I'm gonna look back and go will I kick myself if I don't take that photo and it could be approaching someone. Like for me that's a big thing to do. Introverted. Yeah massively. But when I do it and it pays off and it could just be nine times out of 10 you get a no. Right. Hardest thing but the 11 time the no doesn't hurt as much and then suddenly the shot after you stop someone and they're just so in awe that you want to take their photo particularly older people. Older people if you like I've had it particularly when I've traveled that they love when someone stops them because it genuinely is like a beautiful moment but you're also capturing them and showing them because you see them as something that probably not many other people would say to them. So it's a very different thing but it's just I apply that rule of will I kick myself if I don't get it and that pushes me to go and get it. Yeah absolutely. So what what constitutes this is subjective but what constitutes a banger? Oh oh see for me it's a term I don't use let's be real that's the first thing but for me a banger is one that carries weight so one that I think in 50 years I can hopefully people will see and get something from. Yeah. So a banger is an image that stands to test the time. I love that. That's that's it that's synopsis. For me it's how much is in the photo in terms of like what I like. I like a photographer street photographer he's from LA John Free. He was on YouTube like a few years ago and I was watching his stuff and he'd walk around and he'd do like a little kind of behind the scenes like all right we're going to look at this this image here lady with a pram and he goes you can take a photo of the lady in the pram but wait until something happens in the moment of the pram so it adds an extra element and he goes if you can get grab two or more elements in the frame that constitutes a banger. And then it's it's what fills the frame so everything within the composition should be in there. Yeah. Right there's a purpose for it. Yeah there's a purpose. So if it's not supposed to be there it shouldn't be there. Like and it could be a case of like some incredible there's just there's a lot of great people out there who do it but they just wait for a moment. Yeah. So they'll wait and they'll see the perfect thing but they'll just kind of like veer off catch up and wait for that like it could just be someone walk past with the baby with a pram and suddenly there's a guy fixing a manhole lying down on the ground. Suddenly you've got this massive complete composition but it could just be the moment the baby looking towards the man in the ground and it could just be like a little funny moment. Yeah. It doesn't have to be something that's wisely profound it could just be a bit of humor but everything in the frame carries away. Yeah and sometimes as well is what it's what's not in the frame. Yeah yeah. Yeah the negative space. Yeah correct and that's where but I think what's not in the frame works very very well when you've got a collection because you can like storybook photo books are incredible someone wants to get into photography go and buy photo books because they're curated to convey with images and images with gaps. Like they purposely leave stuff in and purposely leave stuff out. Like there's people like I remember when I made my first photo book that was I actually left out some of my best images because they didn't flow. Yeah. And it was only after people had said that doesn't work that I'm kind of gone. But it's the best one I have and like yeah but it says nothing. Yeah. And as soon as you realize that you're not making it for you then. It's better as a stand-alone. Correct. Yeah. Yeah it's an image that deserves to probably be on a wall rather than deserves to be in a book. Yeah. So what's your do you have an ultimate aim over the next 12 24 months maybe beyond that? Step into more of that within myself in terms of I would love to become more self-sufficient with my photography just the storytelling element. So be able to step more into doing photo books prints exhibitions a lot more curations a lot more collaborations and then in that time build a little bit more that I can step into more projects. So I've got a fair few long-term projects that I do bits and bobs for but step more into that that it can kind of level up and make me level up as well. So just going in and diving head first into that. So I'm under the impression at the moment if I'm going to throw myself in the deep end I better learn how to swim. So that's kind of where I'm at. So in 12 months I would love to be a lot further along that road of actually backing myself and going into that and knowing that I can produce work and create work that's going to get me in the door with those people. Yep. I love that. Kid DMs you asking you how for the tips just to become a photographer. What do you message back? It's quite funny because that actually happened last week. Very simple, buy a camera go shoot as much as you can of everything you can and whatever draws your interest dive into that and then from that continue it forward until you find more of what you like to shoot find more people who are similar use social media use photo books find inspiration where you can and then try and capture that that try and capture stuff that makes you feel. Yeah. It's as simple as long as you're capturing that makes you feel it could be family photos like people who think it has to be travel it has to be world-class there are people who take the most incredible photos and it's mainly family portraits and it's for them and for themselves there's excellent wedding photographers in WA I cannot you couldn't actually beg me to do a wedding I've done a few never again and nothing was wrong they're just not me I don't get any I don't get a feeling from them but there's people who are incredible at it and it's just because they are doing what they love within that realm so a guy mentioned before Travis is a commercial photographer in my opinion like just incredible but that man loves what he does and you couldn't drag him away from shooting so if but he did that by he does he shoots every he shoots a lot in terms of variety as well but he's incredible and he's very good at what he does because he steps into what he loves and I think that's the thing for people if someone messes with me tomorrow I'm never going to give technical advice I think technical advice only comes through trial and error like I can give you every setting to go take the best photo you can ever have and it will not turn out right because I can't predict light I can't predict conditions like none of them I can help with I can give tips but that's not for me there's thousands of YouTube videos on how to take your camera apart and look at every single element of it but if it keeps coming to me tomorrow I just say buy a camera and go shoot what you love to shoot that'll change but as long as you're always enjoying what you're photographing you'll always enjoy taking photos don't do it because it's cool do it because you think it's like everything and if you want to just buy if that starts off as phone photography good save money yeah it's not about going out and buying a Leica no like if I could tomorrow what I'd buy I want a hundred percent but that it's not what I'm about like it's not about that it's it's just about almost having intention of what you're doing so if you're just taking it and then the photo never sees light of day then what's the point of taking it but if you're taking it and you're like I've got a friend to order a little point and shoot film camera she doesn't actually get the photo sent to her she gets them printed and then she gives the prints to people who are in the photos because it's a memory now it's a physical memory so it doesn't just become like I see this you hold it it becomes physical and then if it's like in time and you're in the moment sometimes it's even you can hear it because if it was a laugh you can almost hear and remember the laugh and you remember the moment so then it becomes multi like multi-sensory yeah so it doesn't matter what level you're doing it for but I think it always comes down to why you're doing it which is just to say more and it can be that simple like if you're just creating capturing memories great go and take photos of every single family member go take photos of gatherings get smiles get cries get laughs because in 10, 20 years time you'll look back at them and no one will be sad you got those photos yeah we have it like I don't know about you but my parents grew up with like terrible disposable cameras we still have the old flip six by four books that we look at probably twice a year just mainly reminisce laugh rip the piss out of family members for their haircuts and their outfits but as soon as we're doing that that photo is worth 10 fold what it was at the time yeah absolutely I can't wait to look back at you know 10, 20 years from now at all the photos we've been taking like I'm scrolling back already like eight years ago when I started doing my photography and started sharing online and there was a time where I was like reflecting back going man man I had a I've improved a lot but I'm looking back at those ones now and I'm like back I really like those now more than ever before and it changes as well depending on like what you were photographing and how you're photographing it because if you've gone deeper down one route and then it's you're looking at a different element altogether but you kind of want to go back down there you look at that work and you're like man that was incredible but it was incredible because it's so different than what you're doing now as well yeah exactly again it's just like a time capsule yeah so where can we find your work and how do we follow your journey best ways to find my work would be Instagram so at adamkenna underscore website is my name so it's just adamkenna.co and the best way to follow my journey is probably through website and mainly youtube if you want to get like story explanations through that so it's at adamkenna at youtube but yeah they're the best ways to follow me but I would say website is the greatest way to keep hold because that's the one I'll be updating the most when I travel love it love it so there you have it guys we've got adamkenna in the studio about to embark on a journey overseas and find himself find his passion a little bit more hopefully a lot more and come back and tell his story through maybe another session and yeah looking forward to seeing you again yeah definitely thanks for having me man I really do appreciate it always thank you very much as always good thanks


Hello everybody, Lance Coyke here.   And you're not sure what it is, but it happens pretty consistently. You know, I am of the belief that you don't wanna necessarily chase the shoulder click per se. I wouldn't recommend focusing on it too much, but what I would say is try to improve your movement in some form or fashion. So that's just kind of the mindset I want you to adapt as we, or adopt as we go through all this. Now, big thing here is you gotta ask why would the shoulder click? And we can start to talk about different areas. If you have clicking underneath your shoulder blade, I'm really thinking that it's actually the position of your rib cage that is causing that shoulder to click. I wouldn't blame the shoulder blade here. That's kind of a tongue twister. I would blame the surface upon which it moves, which is the rib cage.  Now, the shoulder blade is rounded. What it's looking for is a nice rounded thing to sit on, but if it doesn't have that because it's flat and because your mother told you to sit up straight at the dinner table and you went to the military and you did all these, I have a confident posture, self-help lectures, all these sorts of things can kind of play into that.  So there is such thing as too much of that. And so if you're doing those things and if you've heard those things and you think you are playing that script over and over and over again, I would try to find a way to first remove some of that flatness, introduce a little bit more rounding in your upper body. Now, second, outside of that, if you have it on one side but not the other, I would try to look and see what kind of asymmetries you have there. So if you see like one shoulder looks a little bit lower and your neck looks like it's kind of being pulled to one side, then I would think, okay. So for example, for me, I don't hold a lot of air in my right chest and it sinks down. So the shoulder looks lower because my ribs over here aren't as high. Okay, they just sink down again. So when I get popping and I get it on my right side, I'm gonna look at that and I'm gonna say, well, we should try to find a way to get air out of the left side and air into the right side. So we need to find a way to inhibit and stretch and lengthen these right side muscles. And we need to find a way to turn on the abs and turn on the other serratus anterior, the side muscles on the left side that will help me squeeze the air out of that side, hold it while I inhale and help inhibit and lengthen this right side. Okay, so that could be a complicated topic. As you can tell by the not very clear way that I just said it, but that's kind of the simple way to look at it. Like if you look like this, I'm gonna have you do some side planks on the left and just hold it there and see if you can figure it out. You gotta just make sure that you're getting all of the ab and all of the side all the way up to your armpit there because that's where you're really playing with the part that the ribcage or the part of the ribcage that the shoulder blade is articulating with, the part it's talking to, the part it's sliding around. So be really particular about those things. Yeah, what else? If it's the other side, so let's say I'm in the same position because it's easy for me to sit here because this is my day-to-day life. Air is out of my right side, air is into my left side. If I'm rowing with my left and I get clicking there, maybe it's in my shoulder blade. Again, I'm looking for that little, that rounding we talked about, that reaching turn on the abdominals, but I'm also thinking about those asymmetries. So if I have the clicking on the left side, but I look like I was looking or we were talking about how I look, then I'm still gonna do the same thing to fix it. Okay, the relationship of the shoulder blade on the ribcage is still wrong in the same way. So if I wanna improve the mechanics of the movement, I have to address it the same way, even though the problem is elsewhere, right? In that sense, I'm problem agnostic. I don't really care where you're feeling it other than I care about you as a human, but what I do care about is your mechanics. So in this case, I'm trying to see how I can scrunch up that left side, keep that there, maybe hold an exhaled position on that side while I do some sort of row or some sort of rep.  It could be, I started to learn it while I do pushes. It could be a single arm dumbbell push, and I could do it that way. All sorts of stuff. Now again, just to summarize, when you got clicking, don't chase the clicking, okay? Chase the mechanics. Try to find a way to make each side look similar. Look and feel similar. If you got side bending going on, try to side bend the other way, and if that's not enough, it probably isn't. Try to look from another direction, look from the top down, see which side is more forward and which side is more backward, and then you can flip it. Look up your anatomy. So, if I don't feel the back of my left leg, I'm gonna notice that if I turn my rib back on that side, then I'm gonna feel the back of that left leg a little bit more. And if I can get that, if I can use that leg to secure those ribs, then maybe that's what I need to be able to do my row without that clicking going on, right? So, the bad news is that if you're looking for a solution to this problem on YouTube, you will probably not find it, or you'll be very lucky. And some simple cue will be enough for you to fix this problem. If this is a persistent thing that causes you pain, find a physical therapist that can help you out.