Another really powerful way is to encourage them to make a take ownership of their own story that they wished they'd had instead of perhaps the more toxic one. You know, and I think that's another really important and very powerful therapeutic approach, which is called narrative therapy, which we could call storytelling. And encourage them to take ownership of a new story. Yeah. But of course, then they'll have to let go of the other one. And that often is the difficult part. That's the inner child work. Yeah, yeah. We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is the therapy show behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to the next episode of the therapy show behind closed doors with the fabulous and delightful Mr Bob Cook. I'm not saying wonderful this week. And what we're going to be doing in this episode, episode 69 is how to work with the inner child in the therapy room, which we do a lot of really. Yeah, I was thinking of the words exquisite is another word. I feel quite delicious today. I had a Pilates session this morning. So I feel sort of quite free relaxed. Yeah, delicious is a nice word. I like delicious delicious is a good word. Yeah, yeah. So I've been doing that and I've been teaching students supervision how to do supervision and supervision certificate. So I've had a good day. Getting to the subject. Yes. Well, I picked this one is that you're correct. I think most people listening will probably know what is meant by working with the inner child. Yeah, necessarily come from transaction analysis and where you talk about working with a child eager state. People know about what is meant working with the inner child. Just in case they don't. It means working with the younger self. Yeah, it was working in a developmental way.  So when you think of the inner child, you think about working in TA, you think about working with the child. But the next question, of course, the developmental question is, how old is the, you know, the the state you're going to visit. But generally working with the inner child means working developmentally with the younger self. So we're looking in the past. Is that how you see it? Yes, yeah, definitely. When people say working with the inner child. I don't often then go and talk about what age. No, the reality of course is that we're going to work with the past. We can work with the child in many different ages. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so three, six. Nine, whatever age we're going to regress to in the process. I mean, the client's going to go regress to. So even though people use that generic term in working with the inner child, I think more specifically it's interesting to ask what age we're talking about. Yeah. And usually my professional experience is linked to the trauma. So what age developmentally is the deficit or the trauma that we're talking about. And that's usually where we end up going to. Yeah. And the client will give you clues in the body language as well, I would imagine. So how young they actually are. Say a little bit more, I agree with you. Um, just, you know, I've had clients when we've been doing in-depth work where they kind of lift the feet up and they're curled up in a ball on the edge of the chair. And I don't want to say the fetal position, but you can tell that they're quite young by. Yeah, even the tone of voice that they're using might go high pitched. So with those clues, I mean, you can ask what the age are, but of course, if it's none verbal, you won't get much of a response. But the younger they are, does that then determine the transactions that you use, for example? Yeah. Yeah. I think my intention would be, I know we touched on this on the previous podcast about having a low calm voice and, you know, I might. Maybe lean forward into them a bit more with a more nurturing approach. And I would imagine that the younger the developmental work with the child that you're dealing with, the sentence constructions will become shorter. Yeah. And more based at the age that you're aiming to work with the child. You know, dependent on where the client is a lot of the time, they do go quiet. They don't know, you know, if you're firing questions at them, they shove their shoulders and, like you said, maybe being non verbal or they don't know what the answer is.  That's absolutely correct. And there's lots of feelings. I just feel this way. So if you're working with the inner child, whatever developmental age we're talking about needs to be methodology of how to get there. The language we might use is regression, but we need to have some methods or methodology on how to get to the inner child. We can work out what we're going to do when we get there, but we need to talk about how we get there in the first place. Yeah. I'm still thinking about working developmentally within a child and go into the traumatic places we talk about. Do you have any particular techniques that you use or any particular ways that you think about methodologically in terms of how to get the client to go to those places? Other than, like, you know, using my voice and lowering the tone and things like that, often this happens naturally without me consciously attempting to regress. The more disturbed a person is, the more spontaneous regression there is. Yeah. And that's because they don't have such access to a healthy or robust adult. You know, the grass for an adult is more fragile. So they're more likely to have a spontaneous regression. I think there are other things as well as what you're saying. So I'll give a list of them. I think one of them is through relaxation techniques. Now you might want to call that hypnotic induction. Either way, helping the client relax. Or helping them actually through breathing exercises. Music is another way to help people relax. Helping a person relax is really important when you start doing this work, because if they are not relaxed, they're going to be more defensive and this type of work is going to be harder. Yeah. So relaxation is really important. Secondly, another technique a lot of people use, by the way, is what I would call guided fantasy. Other people might call imagery work. Other people might just save fantasy work. But these other another word might be used to some means the same thing visualizations. I know you do a lot of this visualizations. I have done in the past. I think the way that I use visualizations, if anything, is in conversation if they're talking about when they were younger is to get them to picture their younger self. Yes, absolutely. And then what will you do? It depends how the client reacts to that. But I'll kind of then, rather than leave them there if they're feeling uncomfortable or in an overwhelmed state, then maybe talk about what would you now want to say to the child at that age and kind of half in the present and half in the past if that makes sense. So there's lots of visualizations around. So for example, you could say, okay, we're going to need to go back and look at the trauma or whatever we're talking about in terms of deficits. So just imagine, for example, that part of yourself which is hurting and, you know, has pain, just imagine her or him, and let's go back a little bit. And as you sort of imagine him and her, I'd like you to just put a, perhaps that part of you in a safe place. Yeah. So find a particular safe place. And just tell me where that safe place is. You could have the safe place in this room or maybe a safe place somewhere else, but tell me where you put that part of yourself that hurts so much. That's what I mean by visualizations or imagery work. It's a way of taking the client back in a safe way. So they are in charge of the process. They take that part of the self back to a safe place wherever that is. You can say, oh, now where are you? Tell me a bit about it.  And now tell me a little bit more about where the hurt is. So you're going back gently and you're helping them take ownership of a safe place in the process. You're not just, I think it's really important to have them going back to a safe place or place which is really positive for them. Yeah, because often when they do go back, it is to the trauma and it is to the events and, you know, like you said, the hurt and the pain and the scare that was involved with that. Yeah. I like to take them back to a safe place and when they're in that safe place, often younger by the way now, developmentally, because they've started to relax, started to find a safe place, started to take that part of themselves which needs healing or hurt back to a different age. Yeah. Now, what would you say to that part of you that's hurting so much? Or what's happening at the moment when you think about that part of you that's been hurt? So you're taking them back to imagery or visualization. Another way is to get them to visualize someone who's quite powerful, somebody who they want on their side and or an ally or yourself as the therapist and get them to go back in time to meet if it was a, you know, dealing with abusers, you know, you could get the therapist to talk instead of you, instead of the client, sorry, the inner self to the user. So, you know, visualization work, imagery work, they're all important ways to help the client go back. Another, I think, really powerful way, by the way, is what I would call art therapy. Yeah. And often when you do art therapy, by the way, one tip is to ask the person to do the imagery or whatever we're going to talk about here with their non-dominant hand. Well, that's, I've not heard that before. Yeah, so I might hand it, but strongly. Yeah. So I then would encourage the person to do with the left hand. Now, some things happen once you start doing that. Often it takes the person back to the struggles that had anyway. I can imagine. Yeah. And there's quite a lot of books, books written about art therapy with the non-dominant hand and how that aids regression. So art therapy, I think, is a very safe and positive way to work with the inner child through symbolism, through, you know, or all those fragmented selves as they might write down on paper, for example. I like that way. And it's a good technique into regression. Yeah. I've seen art therapy done and witnessed it where somebody was asked to draw themselves on the page and how big they see themselves. And it was interesting that it was really small and just in the bottom court and things like that. Yeah. And then what you might do is say, OK, so that's really interesting here. How about you talk to yourself? Yeah. You know, you can take it further. Yeah. That's what we would call here, you and me would call it inner child work. Yeah. It's very powerful. Yeah. And, you know, it's, I suppose, you know, getting them to draw themselves and, you know, talk about how they feel being that size and, you know, that position on the page and the colours and all those sorts of things. There's so much that you can get from art, however it's done. But I've not heard about it being done with a non-dominant hand before. Yeah. And there's quite a few books written about that. Yeah. That's interesting. Because again, it kind of takes the pressure off when somebody's drawing things or, again, it's a safe space, really. Yeah. And if you do the non-dominant hand straight away, they ask, how can I, you will get in touch quicker with their vulnerable self. Yeah. As I said, I was earlier on in this podcast, I was doing Pilates this morning. And I'm very dominantly right handed and all the way through the, through my own body and doing some work or looking at, you know, stretches with the right and the left. And I felt more, I mean, it isn't about regressing when you do Pilates, but I could feel more vulnerable with the left side because it wasn't so much in charge. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that goes for a lot of us that one side is more dominant than the other and it's not just left or right handed. Like you said, it's literally down the whole body. Yeah. So if you can get in touch with the vulnerable self, that will lead to the younger self. And then you can encourage the person to, you know, not just talk about the trauma, but basically maybe talk to the different parts of the self. Yeah. Part of it with me when, when a client has regressed is to encourage them to be compassionate and show self love. Yeah, part of themselves because often there's a lot of guilt and a lot of shame and, you know, responsibility and could I have done it different and all those sort of things. Yeah. And I think one of the really most powerful techniques when you work with the inner child is to help the younger self have a different narrative. Yeah. Which is more positive. Yeah. What it often is, is the negative narrative of the parent, which they've taken on as their own, which actually is. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And that for me is a big part of any work that I do is talking about self love and compassion and visualizing that younger self and what, what maybe they needed then that they didn't get. See that's all in a child work. Yeah. You're doing it. Yeah. Another sort of technique or way of helping us get to the inner child is through what is often called narrative therapy, which is really storytelling. And through stories, you can really often get to the younger developmental part of the child. And, you know, that's lots of storytelling, not only telling stories, but another really powerful way is to encourage them to make take ownership of their own story. That they wished they'd had instead of perhaps the more toxic one. You know, and I think that's another really important and very powerful therapeutic approach, which is called narrative therapy, which we could call storytelling and encourage them to take ownership of a new story. Yeah. But of course, then they'll have to let go of the other one. And that often is the difficult part. That's the inner child work. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because we all, we all have our own narrative and we all have our own story about how things were and it does. It kind of seeps into our subconscious and it does become part of us. Absolutely. And often with a narrative therapy, you can get to their birth story. Yeah. And what they think of their name. And out of 10 to one Jackie, you know, if you go down that path, you will find amazing. It's very powerful. Amazing emotions about, you know, people's image of their own name, what that means and their stories and their birth myths and all that's in a child work. Because, you know, they are powerful the stories that we have around our birth. Oh, very, very, very much. Yeah. It lays the foundation for going forward. Yeah, and many people have been adopted have been fostered who had attachment lectures, who have toxic histories. They have such which stories about their own name. Yeah, it means for them. That's really a child work. Yeah. Because often when you talk into a client and say, you know, are there any stories around your birthday, you know, their initial reaction is, no, not really. But then the more you talk about it and the more you discuss it. It's kind of like, I remember that being spoken about or I remember that being said about, you know, when I was born and how I was born and what was going on at the time that I was born. Right, all that.  And I'm sure, I'm sure, you know, that's, that's, and you get the whole story of why they've lived up to their grandfathers. Yeah. You know, script of being the black sheep, for example. Yeah. I wanted that name. I wanted, you know, we could go on on about the stories. That's really in the child work, I think. Yeah. And it is really interesting because it's like peeling back the layers, you know, from initially no, I don't think there was any stories to suddenly unfolding this whole narrative that they carried around for an awful long time. And they live up to it. Yeah. Yeah. Often called script theory and TA. Yeah. I've got a birth story and it is still with me now. Yeah. Yeah. So it's really important. Another sort of really important, I think, therapy that can be used to get back to the inner work we're talking about here is music therapy. Music therapy is so powerful. So that's not something I've ever used or seen used. No. Well, that would be something like, oh, picker, picker, you say to the clients pick up a sense of music or, you know, a tune or really would that you really like that's really important for you. And, you know, we'll play that and often it's so evocative.  Yeah. So I remember I saying to this person, what's your sort of really a song that you think a lot about. She said, Oh, Release Me by Inglebird Hubbardink. It's a long, long time ago. I said, well, that's an interesting song. He said, Oh yes, I played it a lot in my history because I wanted somebody to release me from this hell. Wow. And from that, I found the music, by the way, it's a 1963 or something. I know it very well. It was played in ours. And we played that and it was so evocative. And, you know, what I'm saying is that it's a really never important style of therapy that you can use to get back to this. It's often very evocative. Yeah. Memories or scripts that clients hold and take ground with themselves, which aren't healthy. Yeah, and it's interesting when you're talking about music and, you know, the narrative and everything. Is it, is it always ones that we choose or are there things that are kind of put onto us that we carry around. That's right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, that we may take on which has nothing has made define us, but actually has nothing to do with us. Yeah, yeah. Because I can remember all the music that I remember from my childhood wasn't my music. It was music that my mum and dad played. Do you know what I mean that kind of, yeah, there are memories attached to it. You're right. Music can transport you to another place altogether. Yeah. It was my many, many years ago. Yeah. Such an evocative medium. And I suppose using any of the senses kind of gets you out of your logical mind. It bypasses a lot of the barriers when we use our senses. Yeah. So for people are very in their head or into intellectualize a lot. Yeah. Or creative techniques or mediums you can find like our therapy music therapy narrative therapy all these things. Yeah, will help the person move to a child. They're in a child and you can do the inner child work from that. Yeah. I think it all needs to be contracted for by the way this I don't think this is something you impose on something you won't be contracted for but you know the trauma the deficits the healing isn't in the presence it's in the past. So, you know, that's where we need to hand the head and all these techniques are very useful to think about in terms of working with the inner child. Yeah. Another another sort of real medium is often what is called sculpturing. I heard of that. You might not have done. No, but I was thinking as you were saying that you one of the things that I did with a client. That was kind of stuck and we were on the verge of something but not was using play do. Yeah, that's a really important play do sand therapy. Just something that they could play with and mold into something while we were talking that kind of took the pressure off them to a certain extent. So when you said sculpture I didn't know whether that was what you were meaning is. You took you to. Now, of course, sand therapy is eons history in terms of, you know, a mechanism to help people get back to their younger child and use so much and so much actually. I'm not sure if it does come from the Jungian world, but a lot of the Jungian therapists will use sand therapy. Yeah. No, not a clue. No. I'm sorry. But that would be if you went to a therapist to use sand therapy to help you get to the inner child for example, they would have a platform or maybe sand and not in the sand would be objects, maybe loads of say 50 or 60 objects it might be marbles it could be toy soldiers frogs it could be. You know, I enjoyed barking hunt and there's a smile and there's all these toys from history, but anything that would be evocative to a person's childhood would go in the sand train. The train might be we've got cats here and they're a little size of a litter tray if you like, it could be bigger, but we'll have all sorts of glittering objects there, which would be very evocative to the child. So, I remember last time I did some Sunday therapy, which was all about going back to my child. There were all sorts of miniature models and sort of shining objects and marbles and all sorts of things, model birds and there was trinkets and there was objects reminded me of the sun and there was flags and all sorts of things. And she said just range, range, range. Let's make a let's make an imagery out of this in your own way just pick some objects which really appeal to you. Yeah. Make any imagery that you want. Now, have you ever done this. No. Well, this is very evocative because straight away, but I did anyway and this is the you start. You attracted to the objects that often you play so much within your child, or actually appeal to those ages of your history. And then you make this whole model what might take you half an hour if you like to see into your patterns. And then with the therapist you start analyzing these things. Where does this come from that reminds you of and how come all this sort of not takes you straight back to your child. And then you would start doing the work for that. Which I would imagine is quite powerful. Extraordinary powerful. Yeah. That's interesting. He often come from young in archetypes the idea of so it's people who do some, yeah, some play listened to this podcast I don't want to do a disservice of that, because I haven't been trained in therapy. It was just a technique that a therapist use with me that I found very useful and have used myself with clients. And I think that's the key is it does bypass it when we're, when we're moving when we're using our hands or doing something creative it does bypass that, that barrier that people put up with. The thinking about things too much. Yeah, definitely.  And, you know, it was literally like an Aladdin's cave in the room, you know where the children could pick what they wanted and they'd be talking while they're drawing or painting or playing in water or whatever it was. Yeah. So that is in a child. Yeah. Healing the trauma of a person's history. So the therapy room should have lots of things in it to use, but what you said it needs to be contracted the client needs some room to do in a child work. Yes. Yeah. So the people that, you know, you said you were a foster parent and you were just describing the play therapy and the therapist at work contractually with that, of course.  I often have quite traumatic histories because of the abandonment and the stories that tell themselves and lots of other things to do with their birth. So what you described to me there was really evocative.  And then the therapist will then do developmental work with the inner child to help the child heal the deficits that has been brought up through the work that's been done. I think that's the bit that I always liked.  I think he'd only been with us for six months when I had my younger son. And he was with us for like nine years. He was so my son was nine when he eventually left. But it was like he was reparented by doing things that I was doing with my younger son. You know, he would sit on the bed when we were reading bedtime stories. And if my little boy was finger painting, then he would always join in and do things. But it was a very natural state for him to be in rather than being the focus of the attention. And, you know, when children or adults are allowed to go back and fill in those gaps. That's really powerful. It's wonderful. You mentioned something there, which is really, really important within the child work. And that is that when you do when you do any child work or working developmentally with the child. What often will come up, of course, is the parent. Yeah, eager state, you know, in other words, through that play. They will, you know, bring up whether it's your art story, music, whatever we want to talk about, often the negative parent. The dialogue. Yeah. The person responsible for the trauma or the ogre. Yeah. And then it's up to the therapist to be able to help it possible. The child dialogue or express what's it all about. And then the therapist needs to offer the protection to be able to help the child. You know, the protection against the ogre, for example, or whatever it is, to help the child heal. Yeah. I think that's a really important thing going back to what you were saying at the very beginning was, you know, it being a safe space. Oh, you can't do this work. You can't do that in a safe place.  That's sort of environment that you were talking about with foster children and the play therapy. It sounded wonderful. Yeah. Yeah, and it did, it helped. But, you know, you speak to somebody on the street who doesn't really or hasn't had an insight into how it works. They think, well, so what are they getting from it if they're just playing? But it is, they get so much from it. And, you know, part of the thing with this particular child was having a free choice what he could do. Absolutely. It wasn't laid out that this is what we're going to we're going to play with the fort this week or whatever. You know, and the cars he would always pick the emergency service police cars or ambulance cars, which was a bit of an insight into some of the things that happened in his past. But giving a child or giving an adult in regression cart blanche to do what they want is powerful. Yeah, and it's almost magical. Yeah, yeah. And you have no no boundaries or no limits to what you're doing because we in life we often don't get that opportunity. Yeah. And you can also do what I would call spot in it in a child work. So if you're working with your clients in here now you might do work where, as I say, the visualization or through interaction or many of the things we talk about here where you may do some in a child work within within one hour. Yeah, the, you know, what we've just been talking about that which is this environment set up for the child to spend two three hours. That's a different sort of system. But a lot of the work that I did within our within our clients through again visualizations imagery, helping them talk to the ogres or toxic parents or the abuses in a very safe protective way. There's going to be some we really important healing going on, and then they can make, they can take ownership of a new, they can take ownership of a new future, or a much more healthy future, instead of one they've carried around with them. Yeah. I'm really enjoying this one Bob. Okay, there's just a couple of books which I think what all about inner child work on a really great book it's a very old it's probably back 20 I could give lots of books but I'm going to go to two quite old books but you very well known books, I think one is called homecoming by john Bradshaw. No. He was a TA therapist. They all seem to be those people. And I think not so if he was American, but he was, he wrote this wonderful book called homecoming, which is really about coming home. And in that he talks a lot about how you work with the inner child. And a lot of techniques system wonderfully accessible book about our therapist works and helps the client, regress and go to places where they need such positive healing. It's called homecoming by john Bradshaw. I think it must be 20 years old. When you go to never book, and I was thinking, well, what's that called and I can't remember but they're both by john Bradshaw. But the most the book I liked most was called homecoming, which has a lot of techniques in it. But there's such wonderful descriptions of the healing work that he did in the inner child domain we're talking about here. Well thank you for that Bob. I enjoyed it a lot. And thanks for allowing me the opportunity to talk opportunity to talk about all these therapies and techniques that we can use to get to help our clients have a different type of future. Yeah. And to let go of the traumas and toxicity that they carry around and define themselves by so often. So until next time when we will be looking at what is transformational in the therapy process. Well there's so much. What we're talking about here is really transformation. I was thinking exactly the same thing. Yeah. I'll talk a lot more than in the chat but if you're going to do any child work. It's all about transformation. What we need to talk about is how we tackle the parent in the service of transformational work. That's interesting. So until next time Bob. I could talk forever so I'm glad you've stopped me. Let's save it for the next episode. Come on. Speak soon.


The last guy has made his major league debut earlier this month and appeared in his ninth game on Tuesday when he replaced Joey Wendell at third base in the eighth inning a little while ago our Meredith Maracovitz caught up with the youngster Thanks Chris Andrew born in the Bronx went to Fordham Prep. Were you a Yankees fan growing up? Oh, yeah I mean I was kind of born into it. I had my parents were both Yankees fans so everybody I grew up with for the most part except for maybe a couple odd jobs, but So, yeah, I was growing up for sure. Does this make it awkward now? We're in a raise hat. You see the Yankees over there Or is it a fun experience to get to play the Yankees? No, the race pay the bill. So I'm obviously a race fan now But it's it's very fun like being able to be out here and compete against them You know, I know it's it's crazy for my parents. They always say, you know See me out here competing against the Yankees for them. It's got to be crazy But I think I've done a good job kind of separating, you know work from Being a fan. So you've converted your family now though, right? Oh, yeah, for the most part I mean they stuck in their ways a little bit. So I can't blame them, but uh Yeah, hopefully we'll change them in due time. What was your first memory of playing baseball in the Bronx? Man my first memory I had pictures of me in Like a Yankees uniform that I got for Christmas when I was like my seven years old but My first word was actually ball. I can probably confirm that with my parents But that's that's what they've told me my whole life growing up. So that's the earliest is as soon as I could speak Yeah, would you go to the old Yankee Stadium? Oh, yeah, I mean, I actually still pass by Yankee Stadium all the time Why when I go to pick up the guy I train with he lives over there So I always swing by and swing by the stadium So it's kind of like a little motivation when I'm on my way to work So do you feel like growing up in that area shaped you a little bit? Oh, yeah I think I played with a little chip on my shoulder just because of the environment where I grew up, but uh, I Think I use it to my benefit especially on the field that competitive nature, but uh Yeah, for sure got a chip on my shoulder for that. How would you describe your game? Um, I'm Aggressive I'm not afraid to make mistakes. I use my speed a lot. So On offense and defense whether it be range in the infield or range in the outfield or stealing bases My legs are my most important part So I got to make sure those are those are good to go It seems as though that the consensus among people in the raised organization is that maybe we're a little undervalued with the diamond backs They brought you over here. You had a pretty solid season. What do you think stood out about your season so far? I just Mentally mature as a player.  So I'm constantly asking questions I'm always watching the game Trying to get that little edge, you know, it's like a little chess match out there But just trying to mature as a player. I mean everybody here has talent. Everybody here is Great baseball player. So it's what's gonna make that difference to get you in the lineup every day or to get you To help your team to win every day September 2nd. That was a big day for you big day for big day first day Yeah, take me back to when you received the phone call and they told you you were heading up to the big leagues I was I actually missed the first call because it's about like 132 in the morning. So the manager had called me And I checked my phone and I saw a text from him saying, you know, call me ASAP. I'm like, oh my god This is either great news or terrible news Yeah, yeah, so I had a buddy actually call me right away. Like as I was reading the text message Hey Jared the AAA manager, he's looking for you. I think you're going to the big leagues I said, hey, don't don't play around like that. So I called him up. He gave me the good news and I Actually got like half hour sleep before I went to Cleveland and met the team So I've never had so much energy on so little sleep before my life before I let you go I know some of your family members actually watch the yes network. So anything you'd like to say to some of the people at No, thanks for the support and I didn't do it by myself. You know, there's a lot of moving parts and getting me here And it's you know, I hope this is just the beginning. So thank you for everybody's supporting


a great time and Hugh's going to do the intros for our keynote. Thanks Langdon. So I've been working for Chris right now for about nine months since I started here in Boston. But I've been working with him since 2007, I think. Sounds about right. We worked together on Red Hat Zen, which was the virtualization of the future. It turned out that was a bad bet, but we had a great time, I think mostly a great time doing it. And Chris has been not only a force in Red Hat, but a force in my life and also happens to be about the most laid back person I've ever met. Which is kind of cool. Saran, by contrast, I've only known for about ten minutes. However, I know of her as not only a talented interviewer and a force for good and sanity in this bizarre world that we all work in. But also as a really interesting and engaging speaker. So I am really looking forward to having both of them share their thoughts with us. And please welcome Saran and Chris. I've never been described as a force before. I love that. Put that on my resume. Put that on my LinkedIn. Thank you all for coming. Really excited to see you all. I heard you had a great party last night. So kudos to you for showing up this morning. That is awesome.  Chris, are you excited today? I am on West Coast time zone. Translation. Never been more excited. Actually, I'm really bummed that I haven't been able to make much of DevConf translation. I'm in the process of moving. I'm moving out here to Boston. And as exciting as that is, it's totally diverted my attention away from being able to be here. So this is my first experience at DevConf U.S. and I hope to make the best of it. So I think a good place to start is to figure out who's in the room. So we're going to do a little audience interaction. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So show of hands if you are a student. Raise them high. Raise them high. Be proud. Be proud. Student of life. There you go like that. Okay. Show of hands if you consider yourself an open source contributor. Raise them high, raise them high, raise them, oh, okay. Show of hands if you've contributed in the last six months. Oh, man, these are only serious people, oh my goodness. Okay, last month, oh my God, we're in trouble, Chris. Oh man, okay, very, very exciting. All right, so I think a good place to start is you are the CTO Red Hat, which sounds very important. And you've been in... I don't know what it sounds like. Very impressive, you're chief, very impressive. And you have been a software developer for over 20 years. How did you get started? My story is probably not that unusual. I got started as a kid with a gift from my grandfather, which was a Commodore, a Vic-20. I really wanted the 64, but it was a little out of reach. And I got excited about programming from that machine. And as a kid, also, I had an opportunity to go to a couple of courses that were taught at the local university, but were aimed at kids, just to learn basic programming. And I would say I got the bug there, although I didn't pursue it directly. And it was a little indirect. It was much later through school when I got reconnected through university, where I got reconnected with computing. And when I left school, I studied physics. And when I left school, I thought I have two choices. I could become a physicist and be the person that knows everything about the thing that there's only three other people on the planet you can talk to about. Also very impressive. Which would be cool. Actually, I really struggled with this decision. Or I could just do something different. And something different is what drew me eventually. And that was largely about Unix. And computers were still something that I found a lot of interest in. And even though the command line is arguably arcane, somehow I found it intuitive. And so that's what I did. I launched into computing at a university, deciding not to be the person that knows the thing that only three other people on the planet know something about. Well, it looks like it worked out. I'm not complaining. You get to sit here and talk to me, right? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so you, when you first got introduced to coding, did you understand that that could be a job? I had no idea. I was 12, so I was like jobs didn't exist. Job, to me, a job was, I thought, maybe being a garbage man would be really cool. I was pretty into the trucks. And a little, that's advanced thinking. And then that was when I was younger. And then by the time I was playing with computers, I was much more interested in sports. And I thought maybe just maybe I'd be a pro sports player. I wasn't sure exactly how, because I wasn't good enough at any of the sports. It just seemed like a fun thing to do. So you didn't have a sport in mind? No, I just had the concept. Makes sense. And then, so coding as a career was not obvious at all. And it wasn't necessarily much of a thing at that point in time. It was pretty niche still. It was in university where I realized it was a thing. And I thought, what a terrible sounding thing to do. Sit at a desk all day long, staring at a computer screen, writing lines and lines and lines of code. And then I got into it. Where did the time go? Well, the interesting part is now you travel all the time. So you don't actually sit at a computer all day, the way you thought it was going to. That's right, that's right. That's more recent.  And the thing that I missed the most in the beginning was pencil and paper. Because as a physicist, you spend a lot of time with math and math equations. And I loved the process of solving a problem and thinking about it, but also writing it down. And it took me about a year in my first job to get over not just working things out on pencil and paper. And it took me about five years to get over not writing things with pencil and paper. So I'd write a lot of documents twice, write it out, and then type it in. And today, it's the opposite. Keyboards are an extension of how I think. And so it's quite different. I'm a big fan of writing things down. For me, there's something about the process and it cements the idea in my head in a way that's different from typing. Absolutely, yeah. Okay, so what did open source look like 20 years ago when you first got started? What was the length? Because nowadays I feel like it's so mainstream, right? Like everyone's in it, heard of it, pretends they did like they do it.  What was that world like? I was exposed to one small corner. So I don't know what it was like in its entirety. One corner was, for those of you who were working on UNIX machines and ever used SunSight, SunSight was a place where you could get a bunch of awesome tools. And many of those tools were open source tools, notably the tool chain, GCC and Ben Utils.  Corn shell, orange shell, the shells themselves weren't the problem as the implementation with the UNIX specific implementation. So there was that. And then I really first got started as a user of Linux. I had all these, the job that I worked on, we used Solaris, both SunOS 4 and 5, so BSD and more AT&T derivative. We used SCO UNIX, we used Dynix, both Dynix and Dynix PTX, which would be similar BSD and AT&T derivatives. We used CUNIX and there might be one other, there might be one other UNIX derivative in there. And everything we did was with GCC, we didn't use any of the native tool chain on any of those platforms. And all of those computers were expensive and they were either pizza box sized or refrigerator sized and none of those, either size-wise or cost-wise fit in my basement. And in my basement I had no shortage of x86 boxes and a friend of mine said, you know you can get this thing, it's called Linux. And you can run it on that x86 box and it'll feel like you're running UNIX in your basement. Hallelujah, I don't have to steal a Spark box from work and risk getting in trouble. And that's how I got involved, really as a user. It was not long after that that I was responsible for the high availability of a platform as a telecommunications company.  And I met a colleague who worked on this project called Linux HA and Linux HA was really my first experience in being a Linux developer or an open source developer. And the experience was really remarkable. It completely changed my life. I mean, honestly, not to be too kind of dramatic or hyperbolic, but it completely changed my life because coding at that point in time was usually somebody bequeaths you with this big document written in somebody else's language, describing a problem that you may or may not understand and describing a way to solve the problem which may or may not make sense. And then your job is to take that description, turn it into code. And so not a lot of creativity there necessarily and you're not necessarily understanding what's going on and there's this sense of the omniscient being that knows everything and hands you the tablet and being involved in an open source community where I could just communicate with people who were really amazingly skilled in this area of high availability, share some of my knowledge but maybe more importantly, expose my lack of knowledge in a way that didn't feel so threatening. It's like, I don't know how to do this and people would just respond. Have you tried this? Did you think of that? And ultimately I was able to both learn and then contribute to the project and the contributions that I submitted were eagerly welcomed and that whole process which in the beginning didn't take very long, that whole process was totally life changing in the sense that I realized I could just get involved. It was my own initiative that was all that was required to make an impact on the community and I could learn from really some of the brightest minds in this field in a way that gave me a huge opportunity to kind of grow and that was the beginning of open source development for me. Yeah, so when I first heard of open source or especially the community of open source, I heard not so nice things about it.  Crass holes. Yeah, I was gonna be more diplomatic, but yeah. You know, they don't have a lot of time and I'm not necessarily a lot of patience, a lot of knowledge, but it can be a little mean sometimes. When you were starting out, were those issues that you had to deal with? In that very beginning, not necessarily, it may have been a unique community smaller, so it's almost like, well, there's another one. Whatever we do to keep that person engaged, let's do that. It wasn't long after that that I got involved in the Kernel community and the Kernel community was much more abrasive and you had, you just had a different way of engaging and I definitely had points in time where, you know, if you could reach through the keyboard and throttle somebody, you would. Or conversely, you just feel like that's been, you've experienced that and you feel kind of abused. And so that is the thing. I would definitely not want to disagree that there's not a cultural element that can be abrasive and part of it is time, part of it is, these are people and people have differing ways of working with each other. A big part of an open source community for me is the human relationships and the trust associated with those human relationships and what's interesting about that in your family, you're probably more rude to your parents or siblings or children than anybody else around on the planet and that same kind of safety of trust.  And so there's a little bit of that and then also just people have different skill levels in terms of how they communicate with others. And when you have extremely bright people really passionate about their ideas, you're also engaging just that passion. Like I'm right and you're wrong. And so there's a lot of different dynamics that are happening in one, in that community context. Yeah, and I imagine the community is kind of forced to grow up a bit too, right? The more mainstream it becomes, the more people it includes, the more ideas are in the room, you kind of have to be more accommodating. Have you seen any shifts in the culture? Absolutely, absolutely. In fact, in the Kernel community, we had some real issues. You could pinpoint it to a few key people. And so, who shall remain nameless? Some of those people behind the scenes were actually spoken to, like, hey, your behavior is damaging to the entire project. And I'm not talking about Lina's here, that was done in public, but there were some folks who didn't even understand the degree to which their behavior was off-putting and hurting other people. And so a little bit of just direct communication and saying, you really need to think about how your voice impacts other people. I suspect that made a small impact because a lot of these are ingrained behaviors. And then at the same time, more at a kind of project level of focus on how do we get more people involved? If you look at a finite pool of people over time, there's gonna be some attrition. And if you have a finite pool with attrition, that will approach a pool of zero over time. And how do you keep onboarding new people? And for two reasons. One, just to keep the critical mass. And two, you need to have fresh ideas. It's really easy to get into an echo chamber and start getting stale ideas. And we wanted the project to continue to grow and thrive. And one of the big values of Linux specifically is that it's quarter century plus. It's evolved with the technology landscape. It's adapted to all of the changes. It's on all of the, normally it would be in my pocket although right now it's over on that chair. It's on my phone and powering the world's largest supercomputers. And that whole entire spectrum of hardware that's enabled has changed over time. So continually evolving in a context where also the software that's running is continually evolving. So Hugh and I worked on Zen, later KVM. Today a lot of focus in the industry around containers and all of these contexts. Linux is at the core. And how do you keep evolving this project to stay relevant? It requires both code level changes but also keeping the community fresh within people and new ideas and new requirements and new use cases. And if you have a kind of a stiff arm policy to accepting newcomers then that's never gonna happen. Doesn't work, yeah, okay. So I wanna switch gears a bit and talk about the business model I guess of open source. I feel like recently or over time it's become more and more corporatized. I think this is a word we can use. Especially just recently with Microsoft buying GitHub the largest platform for open source projects period is I think one of the biggest symbols of things kind of moving in a more corporate direction. And I know you represent Red Hat which is also a big company. But how do you feel about that? As an open source contributor someone has been in the community for so long and now you work for a company company. How do you navigate that? How do you think about that? It's complicated. There's the first, like my first response is we won. Come on, I mean that's awesome. We have been, I've been at this for a long time and there's this sense of us against them and my t-shirt might even resemble that. And the us was the community and the them was proprietary software. And today so much of the economy is run through open source developed software which is a huge, huge, huge major step for open source communities. The flip side of that is the part of how we've grown is through becoming mainstream and becoming part of this economy. And that means there's a lot of money that's infused into projects and with that money comes this... Strings. Yeah, like there's definitely strings attached and it changes the incentives and so one of the things that I care about is how can we retain the health and vibrancy of a community and the kind of community concept while embracing a whole set of new developers who are corporate enterprise developers. I mean the growth of open source is into corporate culture and into products and running companies. Many of the new full-time developers are coming from corporations and making that accessible to those developers, making open source communities accessible to those developers is really important. It's how we're gonna continue to grow and get the diversity of use cases and people. But we can't do that at the cost of sort of selling out the community concept and there's definitely a faction within the community that's very much just a counterculture and so that faction I think would not feel like we've won, would feel like we've sold out. But retaining that kind of core community principle I think is the hard part and one of the things that I've seen in the industry and I know many here have probably participated in this process is we have all of these organizations that support open source projects, foundations and to me I sometimes refer to the foundation as corporatization of open source development and I mean that literally as well as tongue in cheek with the negative connotation that comes along with that and the literal piece is we really do have more corporate input into the process and the concern that comes along with that is where's the soul of the community and the governance process is put in place to make it comfortable for all these corporate entities to be involved because they don't know any other way and if we didn't allow for that we wouldn't be including those members into the community and if that's all that we have then we may lose the real core value of the community and so I think there's a balance and attention there and I see the value of a foundation and one of the things I worry most about is you pool a lot of resources behind a project and with those resources that's dollars, that's funding those resources one of the major things a foundation can do for a project is market it and marketers are really good at marketing things and when you market a project independent of its maturity level you can really create and set expectations for the industry and some of the things we've seen in the last five years are projects that have huge marketing budgets get a lot of focus in the industry don't quite meet the expectations and then there's a lot of dashed hopes and so I think responsible thinking about what is what's the value of supporting a project which is mostly about the developers and the users and getting the right message out at the right time is it's a tough balance I mean the Docker project didn't exist one day and sort of went viral the next day and really helped change the focus of the industry and there's something really cool about that and then there's all of the kind of marketing corporate interests that can I don't know confuse some of the messaging it kind of makes me want to ask the question what is open source at its absolute core I was in a room where this was being debated and a friend of mine sat next to me and she said all this debate about the open source community and the corporations and the people that's not what it is open source is purely about the license that's the whole thing the whole thing is just the license and it's not really much more than that I wasn't actually disagreeing so I was like she's a pretty big open source contributor and I thought really, really that's how you look at it but it does make me wonder now that there's all these players that didn't exist before there's corporate input, there's foundations there are people who get paid to do it there are people who are doing it you know, nights and weekends what does open source actually boil down to in your opinion? It might be a sort of a cliche word but it's collaboration and so the reason I don't think it's a license for one there's many open source licenses and they all have different subtle implications of how that license can be used so there's kind of the most restrictive open source license and the least restrictive open source license and the least restrictive open source license allows you to take open source code and embed it in proprietary software and the most restrictive doesn't allow for that so just with that spectrum alone I feel like that you can't define open source as the license to me it's much more about the collaboration and most importantly about the contribution and the reason I think about the contribution is that same license spectrum which allows you to take code and abscond with it may or may not be how a community treats the code that they're working on so the community culture and the expectation for collaboration and contribution is independent of the actual license and it's the community culture and the collaboration contribution I think is open source it's you know your output is code that you're developing your community is developers and users and you're facilitating that with a license to a degree that you can freely redistribute the code but it's not the license the license is more of a tool and it's really important that GPL versus BSD and can I embed this in my proprietary code or not doesn't seem to be the driving force for how much people contribute back to a project it's more the community the culture the expectation that creates that and I think that's a really important distinction so to me it's that it's collaboration it's the contribution both code contributions as well as bug reports and documentation and you know users participating that's that collaboration and contribution are the key of an open source community. So one thing that I was personally excited about with the corporatization of open source is the money that goes with that right because I think we like to think that open source is accessible to everyone but the reality is for a long time is it's accessible to people who already had good day jobs and could afford to do a lot of really great work but to do it for free and now with foundations and funding and I'm outreach is a great program but allows for people to actually get paid to do this work have you seen the benefits in diversifying the community and bringing in different people who may not be at that point of privilege where they could just kind of do it for free. Yes absolutely I hope the numbers are still small I'd love it to be bigger but I was reading an article recently and it was the premise of the article was just go learn that language and then you can get involved in a project that is written in that language. Implicit in that is an assumption of that you have the free time to go learn the language and that there is some kind of privilege that comes along with that and the focus that I see in the industry right now is not just only on the code and the foundations but also on trying to be more broadly inclusive and knowing that our communities won't thrive survive and thrive without more diverse inputs is probably the first knowing is half the battle and some of the work that we've done to help improve the diversity and inclusion within communities is all over the map from here we've been able to bring some new members to the community through funding and scholarships here at DevConf which is awesome so I know there's some folks here that are been able to take advantage of that and we're really excited about bringing in new contributors many of the foundations actually have scholarship programs that try to incorporate people into the community through largely conferences and getting people to travel because that's where you meet and have the high bandwidth face to face communication which is unique compared with digital communication and if you look at some of the statistics they're not that awesome, frankly I saw Marina put together some numbers for me and one of the things that stood out was a survey of the GitHub community the diversity levels are really, really, really low and then if you look at some other communities they're a little higher so it was like 3% in GitHub and roughly 10% in communities like the kernel and in any case that's low but that 3% number really struck me and even internally at Red Hat our internal numbers aren't that high and so what we need to do as an industry and with what we're doing within Red Hat is look at that and where are your biases? What can we do to not create barriers some of which are, you don't even understand it's language choice, how you communicate simple things like the wording in a web page or the wording in a job description so we had an internal panel which I thought was really interesting internal to Red Hat panel which I thought was really interesting talking about how we can broaden the contributions from a more diverse set of developers or really applicants to jobs and one of the women on the panel said, all of this DNI, mumbo jumbo, whatever just show up with good skills and do the right job and another woman on the panel had kind of in her back pocket a set of wording for a set of job descriptions and she just read them out and said does that sound like a job for you? And her answer was no and I had never even considered that the wording in a job description itself would be off-putting and so we try to pay attention to that internally and I think communities need to also look at themselves and how they're portraying themselves and some of the positive work of the foundation is helping create DNI programs and funding and really look at this as a, it's an industry level issue and what's interesting about it is open source in a negative way is off the charts. So open source communities are less diverse and less inclusive and as much as it's about community and collaboration the dichotomy there is the community and collaboration doesn't seem to be accessible at all and some of that is the socioeconomic reality of do you have the spare time to go learn a new language or you're working three jobs and you don't have the spare time and some of it is just the language and the way that we communicate with each other that maybe even the style the kind of I come from an era where meritocracy was still a good word. Today it has developed a negative connotation and we're using inclusive meritocracy at Red Hat and other communities have just abandoned the word altogether. But the notion that the best ideas are the ones that win rather than the person with the most senior title is really important. It's fundamental to a community and whatever the right word is I'm happy to go with conventional wisdom of what's the best word for that today. That's the core value that matters and it's in getting people's access to skills and inviting people into communities like this. I think are really important ways to improve the diversity and inclusion of open source in general. So why is improving it important because open source has been around for many years has done very good work as you said, we won. So if we've been winning then why do we need to talk about this now? My sense is the best ideas come from the most diverse. I wanna use the word community but the most diverse group and if you look at the success again of Linux as a kernel and an operating system I believe the success is through the broad diversity of requirements placed on the platform and that diversity of thinking and the set of different requirements in one part is just representative of different portions of the industry. But I also believe that the people that make up the community have that same impact on the code base and on the community so the more diverse we have a community the stronger the fabric is that we're creating of the community itself, the connectivity in the community. And if you think in terms of biology or something where you do highly efficient, hyper efficient monocrop farming it produces a tremendous amount for a fixed period of time and eventually you tap out the resources and a more sustainable long-term high productive environment might be some integrated crop management and looking at how you can balance different inputs to create to still maximize your output but maybe it's not 110% for a brief period but it's a big number for a longer period and that to me that's the thinking that I think is why a diverse community is so important and why now what I think part of it is just broadly culturally we're more aware today than we were in the past. It's just sort of a steady state of awareness growth and starting to see some of the limitations and some vocal people who have helped us see that vocal people who stood up and said this community isn't working well for me. I feel actually uncomfortable and threatened and attacked and if our goal is to make people feel uncomfortable, threatened and attacked then okay great but that's not our goal and I think we don't always understand the community can be blind and so we don't always understand where that's the behavior that we're exhibiting and that's the interactions that we're fostering and that's not the world that we're trying to create. I don't know. That's a good answer. A lot of my own opinion in there. Wonderful. I think we're at time. Do you have time for questions? We do? Okay. Awesome. Questions, got a couple of questions. Raise your hand, raise them high. Got one up front right there. Got another one right there. Yes, thanks a lot for the answers. You said we won and I think you're right but I'd like you to comment also on another aspect where I think open source one which is development models. Everybody in the corporate world today uses Git. Some will use private instances of Git lab or whatever so if you could comment on this and how we want that. So one way that we look at it is the barrier to entry for creating software has really become very low and so it's actually platforms Git itself as a tool for distributed development but platforms like GitHub or Git lab that make it easier for developers to share ideas and contribute code I think are a key part of that and more broadly speaking just the kind of digital communications and the way that we submit code, communicate, talk about the code changes and then commit the code changes in the way that are easily accessible to the entire community, both developers and users. That barrier has gotten so low that it's trivial. It's like electricity, we just expect it and it's that plus we have a ever growing source code base that you can either literally fork and modify or use as a foundation to build on top of and those two things it's trivial to create a project and the environment in which you're creating a project is rich with resources means it's like critical mass it's gonna be it gets increasingly difficult to stop that momentum because that's where all the activity is and it's kind of a self fulfilling prophecy of a sort and so I think it's that I think it's trivial to create a project in a really rich environment of. I think you started with the big 20s or you remember? You started with the big 20s so you remember when software components were a pipe dream to find the future and now we have them and I think we could not have them without open source. Yeah, I'd agree and so at that point in time a distribution medium was paper and I would type code snippets into a computer so it's not super efficient. We've been trying to create reusable components for the entirety of the industry and we still are so object oriented programming was a first major industry level attempt at creating reusable components. Today we call them microservices and containers and they're still not perfect but we keep refining the idea and getting better and better at creating these reusable components is whether it's libraries that you could pull from GitHub or whether it's code running as a service or containerized and ready to launch into your platform. That notion of reusable is pretty critical and the distribution capabilities of an open source license enable that widespread adoption. So they're all intertwined. I think the barrier to entry is so low today that it's why you have 80 million plus projects on GitHub. My question is we talked a lot about diversity of human diversity and maybe this isn't the right term to use but I'm wondering about the diversity of disciplines in open source and what kind of thoughts you might have around that. How can we improve that? How can we get more and different kinds of skills involved in projects?  I don't think we're that much different. Like it's either that or sort of maybe a bit more chaotic from the community and there's no sort of middle ground and I was just thinking more disciplines beyond just like coding would help there. So that's an interesting question because the market requirements, product requirements, sort of like the true waterfall development process. I think broadly we understand doesn't work as well just if nothing else it takes too long and there's the loss of information from the beginning to the end. The flip side which is closer to more open source projects is just surely evolve in place and almost respond, react to every individual input uniquely and then like right then and there, which is a little chaotic. And so you go to open source communities and they reach a certain size and they often struggle with who's the architect? How do we evolve the architecture which isn't necessarily at a line of code level? And so that's a great observation. I don't have a awesome insight on how to improve that other than I know that different communities are struggling with that and they've each created whether it's a steering committee or an advisory, you know, technical advisory committee or in the case of certain projects there are a small number of people or a single person who really does have an architectural sense of the project and a level of authority to keep it going in that direction. And so I guess I believe that kind of naturally there's communities are searching for something to improve the overall process or procedure or way of doing development. And one of the things that's creating more challenges is that the corporatization side brings in more requirements and the requirements have these things like it has to be done by Tuesday because my product's gonna ship on Tuesday. So the, which from an open source community point of view is a completely artificial requirement. And so there's tension there as well. It's not just how do we evolve the architecture and off the code, but how do we do that to take on requirements without being so unpredictable that the corporate side can't figure out how to work with us. So that it's, I don't know. We'll work on that one together. Before I get to my question, I just wanted to mention about software components is we sort of forget that those Unix utilities we strung together with pipes were the primary software components for most of us for many years. But I had a higher level question about diversity. So it's been 15 years since I left industry and went into academia. But one trend I saw, and maybe it's partly because Boston's a small area, is that there's a strong old boy network in hiring in the sense that I think is based on rational decisions that if you've worked with someone before, you've got, there's a lot less variance in your estimate of how good they are.  And that leads to everybody knowing everybody else. And to what extent do you think open source, do you think it has changed that at all? Or do you think that it has the opportunity to change it? Well, I guess it's interesting in the sense it's changed and doesn't change all at the same time. So it's changed in the sense that you could be, you may not have worked with a person, but their work is so publicly visible that you get a sense of who that person is and what their skills are and capabilities. And as a result, maybe more interested in bringing them into your organization or hiring them and to be more concrete, you could take a project that has a maintainer and that project maintainer is likely to get a job maintaining that project multiple times. So is that an old boys network, maybe of a sort? On the flip side, your ability to showcase your skill set is in code, it's not just in a resume. And I think that that makes it easier to show your capabilities. So I think it's a little bit of status quo in the sense that you get a key maintainer, a person who's achieved a certain status in a community is more likely to take that status and bring it into from company to company. But at the same time, you have a really easy way to showcase your talent. And one of the things that we've been looking at is internally at Red Hat in terms of the hiring process. There's a term that people often use called cultural fit. And if cultural fit is you're just like me, then you're not creating diversity within your organization. And so we try to look for skills that are complimentary. Cultural fit, if you could use a different term instead of cultural, but a team fit or something that's trying to build a balanced team is a really important way to look at how you bring people into an organization. And again, I think that that's just, there's a benefit of being able to see the contributions that people are making within communities. As a son, yeah, okay. So in terms of dealing with that 3% number of contributors and open source, it seems that universities might be a really great place to start because they are, in my personal experience, much more inclusive. They work more at this and they have some experience about how not to use those words that make people not feel welcome. It's once you step out of the university that everything changes. That was my personal experience. And when you're in a university, you can show your skills, every day you're showing your skills, you're being tested, you're demonstrating it. It seems like a much more equal opportunity that you have in that setting. So if you could somehow extend that out of the university, maybe get more open source. In fact, I've known people here who got involved in open source while they were in university when doors felt more open. So maybe that's a good place to start, but that's not really a question. I would agree. I would agree. There's some attrition. So you see the numbers actually fall off from the university side into professional employment. And so there's clearly something different happening. Projects that we're involved in like CoLab and Outreachie that try to blend, have some student connection with a professional, in a professional environment, I think are steps towards bridging that. And it also starts before the university. The STEM programs for children are already kind of creating, they're fostering environments that aren't as diverse as they could be from the very beginning. And so you get to a university setting and you would never even consider the computer science might be of interest because it's just, you've been taught in the third grade that you're not gonna be interested in that or it's not gonna be available to you. So it's a whole spectrum. And we've done some work. Red Hat has done some work in our relationship with the universities in the Czech Republic where we have a large office in Bernal and we've seen as we get further into younger students we create just a better pipeline. And it takes a long time. It's a concerted effort and we're just a small company and there's an industry level thing that we need to tackle. My kids are involved in First Robotics and they're very good at being inclusive. First Robotics, good at inclusivity. All right, good, thank you. Cool? One more question. We're gonna be late, it's okay. It's Sunday. Yeah. So changing it a little bit around. One of the problems I've seen over the last year, open source has taken off and all of a sudden we see these colossally sized internet companies. And a lot of them are taking huge advantage of open source software. The question is, do they give back? Do they, I'm still waiting for the first commit from someone with an Amazon.com address associated with them. So, in a good way, Amazon.com's forced Google and Microsoft and everybody else to start contributing open source. But how do we get these colossal companies to not just take but also give? So I was an audience member at a conference where the panel was Google, Microsoft, Amazon and Oracle and they were representing in their cloud. And my question was, you haven't given anything back to these communities that you're taking from. You are what I would call a leech on the community. And I believe that starts internally as a cultural mindset shift within your companies. Do you see the value of contributing and do you care, essentially? Do you see, from a business point of view, is there an economic incentive to make sure you're contributing to these communities which as you are pulling from them today, if you're not contributing back, they could decline and your whole business could be basically at risk. And the responses were really interesting across that panel. The Oracle person said, you're right. And the Google person said, we gave Kubernetes. And the Microsoft person said, we have fundamentally shifted our mindset from open source is evil to open source is a really important part of the industry and you'll see more and more contributions from Microsoft into open source. And the Amazon person said something similar to we made Kubernetes and they cited a short list of open source projects they had created which if you go to those projects, you'd see it's all Amazon people contributing to those projects. And specifically, one, they said, it's really awesome. You can watch the developers work on the project and if you're really interested, you can get involved and make a request and if you're lucky, they'll code it for you. Like, that's not really open source development. So it is a big concern and I think it is a cultural, it's an internal to those companies cultural shift that is hard to influence. And I think the influence is economics. I think the influence is when they see that it's critical for their business to contribute, then they will. And certainly the fact that open source is mainstream and you see that as a way to try to attract talent into the company helps. And most of those companies have big Kubernetes distributions and they're trying to make contributions there into the Kubernetes community, but that's just one community. A different concern is many of these projects then are run as commercial services in the public clouds. And the community side doesn't really have an analogous way to run community level. We do community level development, we don't run community level services. And that's something that we're looking at and we're trying to figure out how we can do that with some universities and other communities and maybe other industry participants. And maybe that helps shift the balance a little bit of there's different ways to consider software. Part of it is the code, part of it is the service. Some of those services are commercial, some of those services are non-commercial and maybe in a non-commercial way that we get some of the operational skills and operational understandings and maybe that shifts that balance of how we can get those large hyperscalers to be more contributors than just users, I don't know. It's a shot in the dark, but I do think it's a real issue. Cool, that's all we got? Yeah, we are wildly over time, but that's fine. We're gonna push the next session back to 1040 everyone. So you got 10 minutes to grab coffee and get to the session you wanted to see. And thank you, both of you very much for coming all of this way, all the way from the West Coast in a moving van. Chris. Thank you. So I'm gonna, I'm not sure if you're sticking around but I'll be sticking around by registration. I'm also host of the Command Line Heroes, the new podcast from Red Hat. So yeah, we got some fans, our banner if you want to see.


Now, the Executive Director of Development Specs Academy, OKI Kechukwu, has challenged youth to make informed, non-violent interventions in policies. Kechukwu called for an active participation and conflict-sensitive commentaries on national issues via social media platforms. He said Nigerian youth should be very involved in electoral processes in the grassroots, a fundamental cell in the political system. At the round table talk, also bear their minds. Am I correct? Yes, sir. Or grade your interventions? Those ones who are running the local governments are the ones that select delegates to national conventions and eventually they are the ones that select those people who now are presented to us to vote. And when we look at them, we will say, no, how can I go and vote between this one and this one? It means I have no choice. But how did that happen? We neglected the local government. The local government is the fundamental cell of the political system, the local government. How many of you here, how many of you are involved in the government of your local government? In the affairs of your local government? Maybe almost none. The youth population is about 60-something percent and yet the remaining 30-something percent is busy toying around with your affairs, determining whether you get a job or not. And gladly, you follow the risk of them sheepish. Why is it that you are following them sheepish again because you lack a sense of history? Let's face it, some of the politicians who appear in buying forms, when they appear here and now, you will run after them, you will do self-view with them. The same persons who are ruining your future. As an existential being, how will this man affect my life? If you understand this, then you structure the way you relate with them and you structure the demands you make on them. Organized groups take a lot out of states, out of government. In the U.S. Rifle Association, they are very strong. Students that everybody here has talked about, they have some bargaining chip to their stand that they are organized. So if you don't belong to any association, you are on your own. If you don't belong to any group, professional students, group, vocational, even religious, you are losing out already. Your voice will not be heard. You can get out in street corners and lament from one end to another. Nothing comes out from it. Hello. Hope you enjoyed the news. Please do subscribe to our YouTube channel and don't forget to hit the notification button so you get notified about fresh news updates.


Alrighty, let's play this this has music Cool. All right. I'm gonna turn off that music It sets the tone and you are saying you want to work or or you are trying to work here on a more subtle acting shot But a circumstance of the girls. She's moving out and she has some happy moments She had some happy moments and then it's also a bit sad and You haven't worked on facial detail just yet some stuff in there. So my My subjective thoughts when I was watching this was I was slightly Distracted I think was the was the feel by a the camera So I'm going is she slowly going down an elevator, which I know she's not but this is this weird thing of why are we so low? Now if you look at my horribly Centerline there's so much headroom here. I'm waiting like it's someone else Going to peek in. Hey guys. What's going on? So I'm slightly confused because it also doesn't reveal anything gonna mean like is there maybe a sign that's gonna come up here So I'm I to me it feels like stick to this. This is your framing.  I'm really not But that's kind of where I would leave her so personally I wouldn't really move the camera at all unless you want to do some panning and tilting just to reframe So her head is in in the same spot, but even here. She doesn't go too low and it's back here I mean, it's also cameras movie. I think you'd be totally fine. Keep it around here Because then we have a good view on this we had a good view on her luggage, which is very subtle But I think it's cool there as a detail You might want to move it over so that it's kind of like this and then that and then we see the end of The luggage so you understand what that is at first.  I want to keep this totally fine for me. It was weird like why She's she just finished a sandwich and still here there's so much It's also the lighting where we can see the tongue illuminated So with different lighting that doesn't go through the body putting some shadows on It might not be so dramatic, but right now all I'm seeing is the tongue Just I'm yeah, that was a really good sandwich in this place. Yeah, good restaurant. All right. I'll miss you restaurant That's kind of the feeling that I had other than that. Let's pretend the mouse stuff is not there. I think it's really cool technical things like when you move That forearm up the way you have it and be a bigger influence on the wrist. This kind of yells IK hands Other than that it's really cool.  I like that. Yeah. All right with this I love this and also love the change in hand posing. So there's contrast, right? I'm always a big fan of this where you start a bit wider and then it's a bit more Together here and then into a different pose. So there's no repetition. I think that's really cool The only thing I would do is was you mentioned that she's also feeling a bit sad is that imagine we're Not looking at the sandwich mouth She looks here and that's the moment because she is ready to get out like throwing through here ish That's when I would go sad And especially with especially here on that pause where the smile kind of goes away And it's mostly like she that's it like she is Physically closing the door on her on her memories on her child or whatever, you know that that house represents to her So it's like, all right. This is all cool. I'm still here. I'm still here. That's cool But now that she's making the physical Uh, the act of actually leaving and closing the door on her chapter on her past chapter That's when I would start shifting and to me personally I would push The the visuals of her being more sad so that we leave on a on a less smiley but more on a on a uh, you know sorrow Kind of look there because you already have that music so while keeping Keeping the camera. I mean you can always then have a little bit of maybe a bit of pan a little bit of tilt Maybe for some handheld if you want.  I think that's it. All right. Thank you All right, there's an email you can sign up you can start whenever you want You can submit whatever you want you get 16 submissions either way a like and subscribe would be awesome. All right. Thank you


Yeah, that's how you do it, man. You read them good. How you doing, man? Hi, water, I read your announcements at this score got you then I put a message on Twitter to ask people in Twitter like Do they actually read my live notifications on Twitter or not? Because I don't want to flip my Twitter with live notifications and people don't use it But I'm glad to hear that you're using this for how you been man. You've been you've been in my a I'm assuming you're busy When people go MIA and they disappear for a few years I just wait for the email Soapel's usually here first though Wow, this movement's weird. All right. What do what do I do? Why is my heart? He told me do something. I don't know what he told me to do so we're just gonna I can see my butt Chad, where's why? Why do I have butt crack disease? Take this it's called an underwater Rolodex. The heart is your stamina. Okay. It's super important to mention my name Yes, uncle death. What's this game about? I don't know I know it's a grinder You grind for lutein and cosmetics He just fall. I think you have more than just butt disease Make a great point Oh Console gaming chat That's right and love punches So it like turns like red almost like an orange dark orange color and then it Okay How I get in here You didn't see that chat Where she put the Rolodex we don't ask those questions It's best not to Hey senpai, it's me this device here. That's all the cool kids call it is a smartphone I'll be keeping in touch That captain death down there. Who's at the bottom right?  There are three levels of punches Ow, ow How that dodge? How did that dodge? How did I do that to be? Yes, be all right Well, you can punch would be oh you can All right, stamina I'm sorry. I'm sorry It was killer Iron hammer pick up any equipment dropped by our enemies equipped dropped items to gain power You know the usual process So you got a left-handed weapon and a right-handed weapon There's three levels Many pieces of equipment are featured in the game. Let's take a look at a few basic rules Right left are both hands And three types of armor head upper body and lower body Every piece has durability Reach zero will break be careful So don't get attached to weapons. There are single-handed weapons Equipped in each hand and double-handed versions which can quit one up It's your choice You can store and carry various items you find in the tower in your death bag You should be able to jump and shimmy up there somehow rage moves Uh If you use these effectively you have an advantage in battle the rage gouge gouge each time you deal damage you may need to gouge will build Just squeeze the level to reach his maximum when the gouges fill hold y As you attack to unleash a powerful rage move your quick weapon y, huh? Okay, okay, I healed up there Is that a gun how you block Did you tell me how to block I wouldn't pay attention No, you gotta die.  Somebody get that gun from him When you're exhausted you're totally defenseless So be careful I don't see this gauge I think I did that right Can I get out of here, please? Ow Somebody give me some pants. Oh the gauge is the number All right broke. Okay.  Oh You just press up and then a Yay My butt crack has been covered chat We won the game can I install now Can't be walking around with just all this crack cocaine hanging out That jump that's that's that's that's that's that's gonna get me in trouble I'm that's a little bit of foreshadowing I keep I keep sprinting and hitting a and I do it. I do a Standing broad jump mushroom types All right, so we're doing Mario But we're actually gonna call them drugs Unlike mario which calls them something else When you draw close to a mushroom you can assume it by quickly eating quickly by selecting eat icon when this switches displayed Eating mushrooms in your bag when you put mushrooms in your death bag They will display in a flick box the top right press and hold back I guess they mean minus and use This is some old monster hunter stuff use x and b to cycle right.  That's exactly what monster hunter does Like not even joking eat mushrooms. That's a given With the switch controller by the way It's much better on the ps4 Um yogurt's room. So I do eat Feeling pretty pumped now. I'm poisonous Did I just stop and do yoga? I am um want to give me some of those mushrooms Hahaha Back and why to throw this No, what is the back button chat? I don't have that on my controller. I got start and I got minus. I'm trying minus Oh, I guess I impressed him at the same time. This is very awkward What in tarnation just happened That was the weirdest thing I will see today To throw a mushroom press back in x And exit wait Why am I using back In this mode you can throw mushrooms by pressing a I almost wish I could have heard that in Japanese now Mushroom throw mode. I just did that Make an enemy groggy. You can only set gore task to coup de gras These moves are so awesomely brutal that it might even want to cover your eyes. Oh boy. Here we go Some lower craft type stuff coming up by unleashing a continuous barrage of attacks on the enemy You can make them groggy. Of course this can happen when your character As well. So take care We approach the enemy in a groggy state press y plus lt Or rt the gore task will differ based on the weapon use So that's like a finisher There's one There there's one. I just saw I just saw one Yeah, this is souls like combat because I'm not dodging and I'm dying. I'm dead.  I can't die. I'm immortal. That's not why that's why on playstation This game man Want to try again? Oh wait Let me put the title logo up real quick. You know how these things go Thank you for listening to this voice guidance system Let us embark on a journey of discovery about the many wonders of the tower of barbs The tower of barb is located on the tiny 3.7 square mile island of south tokyo Legend has it that this island was formed during the earth rage tectonic disturbance of 2026 That's right around the corner. The tower stands at 1686 feet The equivalent of a 30 story building with super high ceilings Many say that the tower is actually growing with A 30 story building with super high ceilings So they just they want to do the math Many brave people often attempt to climb the tower to obtain those riches However, none have managed to survive the tower's horrific trials And thus the tower stands as a grim reminder of the many lives lost in search of this mythical treasure I hope that you too will enjoy your climb of the tower And experience the many wonders that it has to offer You seem sleepy. So I turned it off Huh? I'm talking about the death drive 128 of course, man You were just playing it remember Hey pretty cool, huh pretty badass It's the best game console ever and this game let it die It's probably the greatest game ever made The goal of the game is pretty simple Just make it to the top of the tower of barbs It's like a hack and slash rope like kind of a thing Hey, dude, you're a gamer aren't you no, then you'll totally be fine Just try it out. I'll set it up for you Okay, all ready to go Let's get started That's so that's a roach. I'll start the game Why is that beetle? What roach being used as a projector? I think I broke it I scrolled down and now it's scrolling down forever Definitely a strange game Do you just let it die now? Do you have to do this every time or I just I haven't been able to save I guess Please tell them I have to do the tutorial again Oh Oh no Rocks back and forth. Oh, no Please The tutorial again. All right, this guy's ps4 load times 2026 a The earth-raged hektonic disturbance in the bud around the world splitting the earth into four terrestrial masses This doesn't look good zinc, bro Thank you impact for the sub everybody shows them love in the chat. Thank you so much, man. Appreciate it This is not looking good. It's just looking like tutorial again Rocks back.  Everybody's showing some love and chat. Thank you gorma ball For that gift the sub and enjoy those emos thailand. Appreciate it This device here. That's all the cool kids call it. Here's a smartphone I'll be keeping in touch. Enjoy those emotes. Oh, he's different. He's got a chase all this time Okay, okay, I'm sorry. I am really sorry Okay, I'm dodgy. I really am dodgy chat. Okay, that hit him I hate camera control with a bright stick Adams to gain power, you know the usual process He also gifted the sub impact. Well, thank you impact or thank you for giving the sub the impact too I thought impact has subs, but he got gifted the sub. Thank you so much gorma ball. I appreciate it, dude this this chat that I have embedded into OBS doesn't say it just says thailand is sub and then when I looked at the overlay On the screen That's when I saw you gifted it. This irc thing is Kind of weird That yeah, that's that's gonna happen a lot I'm able to jump and shimmy up there somehow I'm through some feeling. How do I use this thing? How to switch weapons? I don't have any pinned up rage I'm feeling quite good. Mr. Fake death Or evade enemy attacks like I don't know How to uh switch weapons yet? I am pressing right. It doesn't do anything Oh, you have to hold it Oh, I was pressing the left arrow not the right arrow I got you Because it was on the second one. I was pressing the left arrow When you pick up items you can choose to put them in this death bag instead of carrying them Equipment mushrooms anything you can't carry can go in there Goodbye, but crack that's gonna be a thing Eat mushrooms. Haha. That's a given