Before starting, I would like to fix some notations that I will be using quite a lot. So a path, x is just a continuous function. A continuous function from the interval zero one to rd. It could be from any interval, but just, let's keep it simple. I will use the notation x of t for x of t. So it's quite common in probabilities. And xst will denote the increment xt minus xs for s smaller than t. And although everything we will do is, we'll hold for any dimension to keep the notation simple. I will always use a notation for d equal one. So we will write everything as if d is equal to one. So the second definition should be quite familiar. So I will say that x is c alpha or alpha in one third one. If the following quantity is finite, this is the usual Holder semi-norm. So it's the supremum of the increment of the paths over t minus s to the alpha. And basically I take t and s in zero one and of course different. And finally I will say, yes, xst, yeah, you can put a comma, I don't know if that's the problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the one third, of course, we can define this for alpha smaller than one third, but that's the setting we will be working with. And finally, I will say that x is in c alpha minus. If x is in c beta, or all beta smaller than alpha. And the very last thing is, Brownian motion is a random t one-half minus path. That's all we need to know about Brownian motion. Okay, so today I want to talk about two problems that are related actually. So problem one is the following. I want to define the integral of x, the ys against the x for x and y in c alpha and alpha between one third and one. Second problem is the following. I want to give sense of the following differential equation. dy t equal f yt dx t, some initial condition for x in c alpha. But I want to do it in a nice way. That would mean at least existence and uniqueness, but also the continuity of the solution map in such a way that the map that takes the initial condition and the path x and gives you solution is continuous. So that would allow you to use approximations, to treat approximated problems and say that the solutions are similar. What we will do now, I will spend some time to tell you why this is not trivial and why the usual tools don't work. And then I will give you, as I was saying, the title of Glynx, that's what can be done. I will talk about the specific theory which is the theory of control roughbats. So this was introduced by Massiminello Gubinelli back in 2004 and it has become quite relevant these times. It has been one of the fundamental tools used by Martin Heijer to build a theory of existence and uniqueness of some problematic stochastic PDs in some topology. So in particular we will see that the uniform topology does not work with a concrete example. So an observation first is that these two problems are quite equivalent. So P1 can be written in the language of P2 as solving the differential equation, dZT, equal y of t dx t with initial condition z of zero equals zero. So that would be a particular case. And P2 is not exactly equivalent to P1 but can be written in the language of P1 as y of t equal the initial condition plus the integral of the right-hand side. In order to solve P2 in particular we have to give meaning of the integral of the right-hand side which is of the same kind of the one above. Okay, so let's point out what are some of the problems we would encounter to answer these questions. The first one is that Riemann-Steelge's integration does not work. So I remind you what the Riemann-Steelge integral is. You define this to be some kind of Riemann sum. I hope the notation is clear. So here I have a partition of the interval zero one. UV would be the extreme points of each interval of the partition and just build this Riemann sums where you belong to UV. So that'd be a tricky part. And when a classical result says that if G is a bounded variation then this converts for any continuous F and any choice of U bar in the intervals of the partition. Verges or F continues if G is a bounded variation. Now if the function is C alpha and only C alpha it is not a bounded variation. So say if it's C one-half then the size of these increments would be one over square root of N. So if you take the regular partition then if you are summing N terms of size one over square root of N it will blow up unless you have some miraculous cancellation. So it seems that the Riemann-Steelge's integration is doomed to fail if you want to apply to solve these problems. You can think well it's just that maybe we are clumsy and we are not able to prove such a result for the wider family of functions. And actually there is a theorem that says that you cannot do better. The Riemann is the following. So let's define an operator on continuous functions as follows where I take the partition to be the regular partition. So Tk is K over N. Then if Sn of F converges for all continuous F then G has bounded variation. So it's not that you can define Riemann-Steelge's integral for function of bounded variation best to best you can do. And the proof of this result is quite simple. It just uses a bit of functional analysis and it's very short. So the first thing you have to notice is that Sn is in fact a linear operator from the space of continuous functions to the real numbers. So we can use all the tools of functional analysis to deal with this. So I will do the following thing that will look mysterious at the beginning is that I will define a function Fn continuous function with infinity norm equal to one and such that, yes? Yes, there is nothing. So I will define a certain test function. So I will prescribe its value at the left points at the left points of the partition. So this will take the value minus one or plus one according to the sign of the increment of G. It will be the sign of G Tk plus one minus G Tk. So Sn of Fn is equal to the following. So if this increment is positive, I'm multiplying it by plus one. If it's negative, I'm multiplying it by minus one. So in any case, I get the absolute value of the increment and this is related to two things. So first, this is related to the total variation of G. When I take the measure of the partition to go to zero, this will converge to the total variation. And on the other side, I'm testing Sn against a function which has norm one. So it's also related to the norm of Sn as an operator. This is smaller or equal to the norm of Sn as an operator, okay? So this means that these quantities will be smaller than the supremum of all these norms. And now I can also take the limit in here when n goes to infinity and I will get the total variation of G. Now if I can show that this is bounded, I will get that the total variation is bounded. And that's where I assume that this thing converges. So if Sn of f converges for all f in C01, then this sequence is bounded in R for all f. It means that the family of operators Sn is point-wise bounded. And I can use the Banach-Steinhaus theorem which says that then it's bounded in norm. And this gives us an upper bounds on the total variation of G. So there is no hope to use Riemann-Steins integration to go beyond the total bounded variation case. So we still learn something from this proof beside the fact that this will be useless. Is that, so in the core of the proof is the fact that I can engineer a bad function, a bad test function, okay? So maybe I'm being too ambitious and I want to build the integral against anything. And anything means that I can build this pathological test functions. But maybe I don't want to integrate against anything. And that's in fact true. So we don't want to integrate anything against anything. For instance, let's go to problem one. In problem one, remember that we had dyT equal f of yT, dxT. So it means that on small scales, I should have that the increment of y is that f of yS times the increment of X. So if I want to solve this problem too, sorry. If I want to solve problem two, basically I'm interested to integrate Y to integrate only functions that's locally look like X or see it like X. So I'm not integrating anything against X, only things that are quite related. So the second observation is that there is one classical theory that goes beyond the bounded variation case. So, and that's the young integral is well defined for f in C alpha and G in C beta as long as A plus beta is bigger than one. So that's good, but that's not good enough. For instance, it doesn't cover the Brownian motion case. So it does not cover, let's say the integral of B against itself. Why remember that B was C one half minus? So when I add up the regularities of B and the integrator, I get something which is slightly below one. So we are below this threshold. So let me take a second to show you that some very exotic thing happened when you go actually to bad exponents. So let's talk about some pathologies of Brownian motion. There is a very funny fact that you can say you want to build the Riemann sums of Brownian motion and try to decide if they convert to something. Say I take B of T, something I will call Tk epsilon times the increment. Tk epsilon is something that interpolates between Tk minus one and Tk. Well, if this was Riemann-Steelge integral, this would converge no matter what the epsilon is. But actually in the case of Brownian motion, this converges to what you would expect plus something that depends on epsilon. And there is more. So this is, B is the Brownian motion evaluated at time one. It's a Brownian motion, it's the same B, the square. Yeah, so if it was a usual function, you would stop here. So let's see in a heuristic why such thing happened. So let's be even more general. So let's try to see what would happen if it's a fundamental theorem of calculus. So say take F smooth and let's look at F of B one minus F of B zero. So we do the usual thing. We split this big increment into smaller increments and then we Taylor expand. We get F prime of B Tk minus one times the increment and I will continue up to order two. Now if B was smooth, say differentiable with the bounded derivative, this increment would be of order one over N which is the size of the increment to the square. So this is one over N square. You are summing N of those terms. So this whole sum as order one over N, it vanishes. Then you can just stop there to obtain the usual fundamental theorem of calculus. Now this guy says C one half, a bit less. So this should be of size square root of the increment, one over square root of N. So the square is one over N which compensates exactly with this N. So I cannot throw this sum away. So in the limit, what happens is the following that F of B one equal to F of B zero plus the integral of the derivative, whatever this means, plus a sum on order term. What you have to put here is actually the S. So this is something called Ito's formula, okay? So yeah, so things can get very exotic when you try to integrate against things that are quite irregular. So we talked about the difficulties we encounter when trying to define these integrals but let's talk a little bit about the problem of the continuity of the solution map. So that problem too. Let's look at the following example. So let's say we want to solve this differential equation. So I have two one-dimensional paths, so two one-toedomentional paths. Let's say, well, let's give an initial condition. So this can be solved explicitly you just use an integrating factor. The solution is here and I will take a very specific sequence of paths. We'll see what happens, okay? So this is what we will consider, take. So in particular, this path goes to zero uniformly. So let's have a look at what happens with the solutions. So the solution in this case looks like this, yt of n, just writing this in this specific case. So it will be where this y and t is the integral. So this is not something we can compute but at least we can estimate it. Okay, so let's say what this looks like. So ytn is, I have the exponential of minus xn1, which is these things there. And then I have the dx2, which is n times sine of cosine, sorry, n squared t dt. Okay, so I do the obvious change of variables which would be s equal n squared t and then s will go between zero and n squared t. I have cosine of s here, the sine of s ds. And then I have an extra one over n squared which here, one over n. So this is correct. Now let's integrate by part. So say this is the derivative of something, this is just something. So we exchange the rule. So let's not care about the boundary terms. I will get 12 between zero and n squared t of e minus one n, the sine of s. And what we'll pop out actually is a sine square of s ds. And an extra one over n which comes from this derivative. So let's evaluate this. So this will not matter because here I have something that goes to zero uniformly, exponential of this, just goes to one. No, I have something which is positive over an interval of order n squared. I'm just taking the average of that. So the integral of sine square usually is about one half the length of the interval. It's true if you do it between zero and two pi, the integral is pi. So this should converge t over two. That's actually true. Hence the solution that we call yn converges to t over two plus y zero. Again, these exponentials just disappear. So the map that takes y zero, x one, x two and gives you y is not continuous in the uniform topology. So if you want a continuous solution map, you have to do something else. And it's actually, it's not just that you have to change the topology on these two paths. You have to do something more. And the nice thing is that this example tells you exactly what you have to do. So we will approach it in a different way. Zero or the initial condition, say y zero, yeah. Yeah, because the, right. So let's do something else. So let's rearrange things a bit. So let's extract this guy. This is one. And now very naively, we will tell or expand. I mean, I will tell or expand inside this integral. So the first order term will just be one. And in the second order term, I will see this increment, et cetera. Now this will go to zero. This is just the increment of x and two. And we know that it goes uniformly to zero. You can, having a look at the, the higher order terms, you will see that they converge to zero as well. But not this one. So let's have a look at that one. So you see, this is an iterated integral. So this is minus integral between zero and t, integral between zero and s, dx and one, u, dx and two, s. You know, it's something you can compute. You just write down explicitly these two things. And I have the answer over here. So after doing all the simplification, you will get that this is, except for boundary terms that will go to zero, this is what you get. And this again converges to t over two. So all the problem was apparently in this iterated integral. So some, let's summarize everything we have learned on these examples. So the relevant things, of course, that remain still disintegration, it's not enough. Uniform topology is not suitable. So that's the pessimistic side of what we have done up to now. But there is some hope. This term seems to matter. So what this example says, that whatever topology, I'm trying to use, to have continuity of this solution map, it has to include this iterated integral. And that's actually what the theory of rough paths does. Everything clears up to this point. So I apologize in advance, because I won't be completely rigorous here. I will give mostly intuitions and then I will write down theorems which will not be completely correct. So there will be some bounds that will, there will be things missing, like initial condition and stuff like that. But at least the relevant part, in my opinion, will be there. So we will talk about control rough paths. So that's not the genesis of rough paths actually. It's quite older than that. It goes back to maybe the 80s of the 90s. It's by words by Terry Lyons, 80s maybe. What happens is that at some point, Guvinelli's reformulated the theory in a different way. And that reformulation was the one that has been used a lot in stochastic PDs. So I will actually base this lecture on some lecture notes of Hayer and Fritz lecture notes. So they present Guvinelli's theory, but maybe in a more accessible way than the original paper. Let's start with the definition. So let's take one alpha between one third and one. The rough paths is a pair such that. So X is C alpha. This strange X goes from the interval zero one square to R and it's such that it also has some kind of holder norm. We have to be a little careful here because now this is a function of two variables. So this st are actually two different variables. It's not an increment. Okay, so say it's a pair of a holder alpha function and some kind of holder two alpha function. And then I have to impose something more. So they cannot be completely independent one from the other. So we have the following relation. So actually this has a name. It's called a chance relation. It's the integrated integral here. Yeah. So this relation is not completely arbitrary, but it's exactly what would happen if we take X ST to be the iterated integral of X against itself. Now this identity is tricky because if I'm taking X to be a very irregular path, so far I don't know how to define this. It doesn't matter. If I choose the point is that if I choose this X double bar, satisfying this algebraic condition and this analytic condition, then it gives a satisfactory notion of an iterated integral. We'll have all the properties that I would expect from an iterated integral. And I will take that as a definition. So to work with this, I have, so the expert used the name postulates. I have to postulate the value of the iterated integral. And once I have that, I can continue with the theory. So of course I still have to do something reasonable there. Usually these objects one has to construct them by hand. They say when you deal with a probabilistic problem, what you do is that you use this theory which is completely deterministic. But the place where you have to do probabilities is to build this additional object. Okay, so an observation. Okay, so we denote the alpha, the space of such growth paths. And we'll use the short hand notation X underline. So sometime we will just say X belongs to the alpha. It's just an abuse of notation. So we say that I have to provide the iterated integral. And that's tricky because I lose uniqueness. So let's take a rough path and a function F smooth. Then I can build a different, and this will satisfy a chance relation. So given a path X, this is no unique way to construct this double integral. Okay, so let's define some norms. Just one, Charlie. And not really a norm, but a semi norm. The important thing is that it gives a notion of distance in the space of growth paths. Okay, so back to problem one. Let's see how this could be of any use for what we have in mind. So remember that Y looks like X on small scales. Say for S close to T. So for short, let's write Y as T more or less Y prime of S, X as T. So let's naively try to integrate this thing and see if we can guess what could be done here to define an integral. So let's integrate this approximation from S to T. So I will have here S R, V X R. Now S is fixed, so this goes outside of the integral and here I have X S R, V X R. So now, so here I have an increment. Only R will see the integrator, Y S is a constant. So I get integral of Y R, V X R minus Y S increment of X, more or less. And here what we see is the iterated integral. So it would seem that the correct notion of integral should satisfy the following. And you see, that's not Riemann integration or Riemann-Sidius integration. In Riemann integration you would stop here. What do I mean by that is that when I build Riemann sums, I just look at sums of these objects and they converge to what I call the integral. But now there is something here that seems to matter. It's different. So it seems that when we take Y of this form, there is a natural way to build this integral. And this leads to the concept of controlled rough paths. Go there. So again, I take alpha between one third and one. Believe me, in a few minutes you will see why we have to restrict to alpha bigger than one third. Okay, so let X be a rough path. So we say that the paths Y is controlled by X. Either exists the paths Y alpha, alpha and again a function of two variables. Like I say, from zero one square R, which has this two alpha non-finite. Such that the increment of Y is exactly Y prime of S times the increment of X plus a reminder. And the point is that the reminder has is higher order than everything else. I don't both face here. No, no, it's the increment. Yeah, yeah, the both. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the iterated integral does not enter explicitly here. Okay, so an example, this is not too crazy. Yeah, so first let's see how we will quantify the norms of these things. So for, so we denote by the alpha X, the space of control rough paths. And we will define a norm. So technically a control rough path is not just a path. It's a, there is more information there to say the Y prime. We define the norm to be the norm of Y prime plus the norm of the remainder. And you have some choice here. There are three objects which are not X in this, in this equality, they're not independent. So you have to pick two of them to quantify the size of the others. Okay, so an observation is that what happens with the alpha norm of Y. So actually that's something you can estimate quite easily using this decomposition. So this will be one equal to the infinity norm of Y prime, alpha norm of X plus the two alpha norm of this. You could put an alpha norm, but it doesn't matter. And now you could put these two things together to get the norm in the sense of control rough paths. And then you could even put more here to get the norm of X as a rough path. We can bound this by the rough paths norm of X times the control rough paths norm of Y. So an example, this actually covers, this covers a case which motivated us to introduce a notion of control rough paths. I have until four. I said one hour and a half. It says, here it says until four. Sorry? Oh, they asked me one hour, one hour and a half. Sorry about that. So examples of control rough paths. If F is, let's say C2, then F of X is controlled by X. And it's the reactive is interested. And you can even estimate the norm. So here you have something that depends on the function. It's C2 norm actually. And also you can look at the composition of a Y controlled by X. And it will be also controlled by X. And the derivative now, the prime of these paths will be this, it's sort of a chain rule. Okay, so back to integrals. So let's repeat this de-heuristic with it before, but now with equalities instead. So let's again integrate naively on both sides. Remember that this was just iterated integral. So now I have the following equality. So it means that a priori, if I want to define this, I should build a Riemann sum that involves these three terms. That's not very satisfactory because a few minutes ago we said, well, these two terms should matter and not this one. And that's actually the case because you see this increment there is of order t minus s to the two alpha. The increment of X is of order t minus s to the power alpha. So this gives us code for t minus s power three alpha, but now we choose alpha bigger than one third. So this is little o of t minus s. So when I build Riemann sums with these guys, this will completely disappear. And that's the main theorem. So take again alpha between one third and one X of parts and Y controlled by X. Then I can define an integral via Riemann sums, but now instead of just putting the increments I have to put more information. And in addition here is incomplete because it involves this term here which is not uniquely defined. So this is really an integral against the roughness is well defined. So furthermore, we have some bounds. So when we started the heuristic, we say that these integrals should be a good approximation of this increment plus this second order increment. And it's actually the case. This is bounded by, so here's where it's not really exact. But the important thing is that here there is the t minus l minus s to the three alpha which is related to the heuristic I gave there. And also an interesting fact is that if I define the parts z t to be this integral, then z is again controlled by X and the derivative is Y. Is what we would expect. So of course one should turn the heuristic into a proof. You would have to do several things. So first that show that this remand sense that I wrote somewhere converge that what you get at the end is additive and stuff like that. So it's quite a bit of work but I think the heuristics gives you the general idea. So now we have all the tools we need to solve a problem too. By that I mean that we have the correct spaces where we can use fixed point arguments to get unique solutions. Okay, so it was something like that. So what I will do here is to define a certain map M from the space of control paths to itself. And now here I will not just take Y but Y together with a Y prime. It's a control path and I will map it to Y zero plus the integral F of Y is the XS. Now it's the rough integral. So to get the map from control of paths to control of paths I also have to give a prime for this guy and the theorem above tells us that the right notion of the relative if whatever I have inside the integral. So this is indeed the control of paths. So let's say of course there are some analytical bounds but they are provided by the theorem above. So if Y, Y prime is a fixed point what we would have is that Y of T is equal to Y zero plus this integral and Y prime is exactly what we want. So what we have to do, everything we have, what we have to do is to set a fixed point argument.  So we can give a fast sketch of proof that M leaves some ball invariant and there is actually a very funny idea in there. So let's see. So I will define a ball which is suitable for this problem. So I will fix the initial condition but see if I fix the initial condition I'm also fixing the initial condition for the derivative which is F of Y. So Y prime of zero should be F of Y zero and I will impose that Y, Y prime is known smaller or equal to one. Then what I have to do is I have to take Y, Y prime in this ball and show that what I have here is also in that ball. So I have to control the norm of the first entry and the second entry. So let's have a look at the second entry. So it's something I wrote as an example. This is bounded by F, a certain norm for F. So norm of Y. Now you see what we have to control the norm of this thing and show that it's small enough and here it seems hopeless because these are fixed quantities. There is no way we can make them small and there is one where we have to use a certain trick and it's the following. So let's try to estimate this norm. So let's estimate the increments. So remember that this can be decomposed in this way. Now this is smaller or equal to say Y prime and infinity. A certain older norm of X times T minus S to the same exponent plus the two alpha norm of the reminder, T minus S to the two alpha. So what do I want to do? I want to show that this is small, at least the norm. So I will have to divide by T minus S to the alpha and show that that will remain small. So here I'm good because when I divide by T minus S to the alpha I keep something which will go to zero when T minus S goes to zero. But now here the natural thing would be to put alpha and alpha. So when I divide by T minus S to the alpha again I will remain with something that cannot be small. And that's where you have to go a little above alpha for X. Now if you do that, then when you divide by T minus S to the alpha and you take the supremum you get that the alpha norm of Y is bounded by point infinity. Then you will have a factor B minus alpha there. And if you take T and S in an interval zero T this will be bounded by T minus alpha and there P to the alpha. Okay I'm just bounding this increments by the total size of the interval. Now this is part of the norm of Y, Y prime. So it will not matter because it's smaller than one. This also can be bounded above by the norm of Y as a control path. This will be bounded by the norm of X. So overall this is bounded by the norm of Y norm of X theta, T to the beta minus alpha. This is smaller than one because we fixed it that way. This is the data, this is axis fixed. So this is order, it's a beta minus alpha. So if you take T small enough then this will be small and at least for the second entry you will be in this ball. And the first entry can be treated similarly. It's a standard fixed point argument. So with the same ideas you can show that it's a contraction, it's a bit more involved and also then from there it's quite easy to show that it will be continuous in this rough path. You really have to use this as a rough path not just as one entry. Okay that's all I wanted to tell you today. Thank you very much.


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I'm going live on video. We're not okay. Yeah, so I was like five more minutes five minutes people drink up You don't have to go home. Say here. Oh, yeah St. Patty's day me too Where are you going? I have some green on Glend I have no green. I have a white shirt. I guess I should wear green, but I'm gonna pinch Roger Yeah, but I'm in Glendale. It's mostly Armenian. I mean how many people are gonna matter How many people who celebrate St. Patrick's Day have even a trace of Irish in them? You got to drink the Guinness the Killian's red today. I don't drink either. So that's another strike against it Yeah, I don't drink you got to drink some magners Some beamish. I'm just gonna drink beer. I don't care where it's from Just pour it down my throat Give me the beer man Afternoon bio cow. Yeah, I'm glad the meetup tomorrow is at 4 p.m That will give plenty people plenty of time to have recovered from their Friday St. Patrick's Day This is like the worst day for St. Patrick's Day because you have that thing tomorrow at 10 Yeah, analyst hangout at 10 meet up at 4 No, I'm do that bugs bunny thing or he's You're not Irish are you I have some yeah A little bit of Irish in them. Yeah Norris Norris got a little Irish in them. She left her last name used to be Donnelly. Ah Well, then she does have she is she's part Irish part Slavic the miles Though I have some miles. Those are the Irish To people who are quite familiar with the beer Yes, you're right The slavics and the Irish Wait aren't slaws really big in the beer Beer, I just think it's I think it's more like Lick my in hard liquor. Yeah Our Slavic and of course they're very vodka.   Are you experienced Len? Are you experienced? I have ever I've always been experienced Roger. Are you at the ready? I'm hiding By Roger All right here We go Daily Tech news show is powered by you. Thanks for making it possible to do the show at patreon.com slash DTNS This is the Daily Tech news for Friday March 17th, St. Patrick's Day 2017 I'm Tom Merritt joining me is Shannon. Oh Morse on this Friday. Oh Shannon Morse oh Shannon. Oh, well Shannon's actually I got it. Yeah, I got an Irish background to it It is it's a very Irish name There's a Irish river and an airport named Shannon. I believe but you know Irish here, not at all I just like to drink the beer Unless you've been drinking a beamish That that that man is oh Lenny Peralta. Oh, yes, they got it everybody. Well, I come to see now. That's offensive. Whoa Hey, man, you know, my wife is partly we spoke for the shows part Irish So by default I can I can do that. You could make fun of the Irish. Okay fair Why are you putting words in my mouth? No, no, no, I'm just kidding Hey, everybody, we're actually here not to make fun of Irish or St. Patrick's Day But to talk about some technology Shannon's gonna explain to us Some things about browser encryption later on that you need to know And like with most of these things Shannon, it's not a thing to get freaked out about but the more you know Then the better you prepare yourself, right? Yeah, totally. Totally agree A couple of things breaking right before the show Gmail users can now play video attachments in the Gmail browser rather than download the videos So play the video in the browser rather than having to download it. That's convenient, right? So convenient. I love this Especially working in podcasting. This is so great. Yeah, so they're I guess they're using the YouTube platform co figure It's one of those why didn't they do this earlier? Situations I suppose but yeah, good good that it's finally they finally worked it out Bloomberg says sources tell it Samsung's Galaxy S8 will use facial recognition Along with fingerprint and iris detection for mobile payments. That's a rumor. That's just sources Samsung doesn't have his announcement until March 29th. How do you feel about pay-by-face? Oh? So great I mean just for the mere fact that I know when Defconn comes around if this is an actual thing We're gonna see so many hacks about it so many hacks Hack your face. It was a future hack 5 title. I would like to see Right now here are some more top stories So there's a new Microsoft knowledge base post up Responding to an error message that says you don't have a processor supported by this version of Windows It's essentially saying you can't receive Windows updates if you're on Windows 7 or Windows 8.1 On the AMD Bristol Ridge Qualcomm 8996 or Intel 7th gen processors now Most folks are reporting this and saying well this this probably is going to be updated to Ryzen and Cabby Lake processors but this This is a continuing battle for Microsoft which for a while was saying it wasn't going to allow Windows 10 to run on older Intel processors And then it gave it a break and said okay. We will allow it. We'll just do security updates though And are pre Windows 10. I'm sorry not not just Windows 10 So they keep going back and forth on this Shannon and this knowledge base article seems to imply That they aren't going to support you running Windows 10 Anything but Windows 10 on the most recent processor generation Right, which doesn't do a lot of good for the manufacturers of the processors because there's a lot of people There's still a huge fraction of people that are still using like Windows 7 and 8.1 that just have not updated to Windows 10 So this just sounds like it's it's a Windows Microsoft like you know Showing their fists and saying you got to update to Windows 10 or else you can't update your CPU I mean Windows 7 there there's a fair conversation to be had about how Windows 7 isn't going to get much but security updates anyway Yeah, and and Windows 7 is going to have a hard time running on these these processors You're gonna have to do jump through some hoops anyway So so maybe that's fine. Maybe it's like, you know what you want to run Windows 7 You need an older system anyway, but Windows 8.1 can run just fine on a Cabby Lake processor. Oh, yeah I don't On the one hand, I 100% understand Microsoft wanting to encourage you to Update to Windows 10 because their model is predicated on you're just gonna have Windows and always have the latest version And that's good for security and there's a lot of positives to that What I don't like is them taking the choice out of my hand when it could work otherwise Exactly, and that's a huge component for me is I like having that choice and whatever kind of components I'm going to put into my computer and whatever software I choose to use but I do have an answer to this Yeah, you could just switch to Linux that pretty much runs on all the things that will not help you run Windows 8 If you want to run Windows 8.1, that's that's not going to do that Wait a minute.  Yeah, you know, I bet that would probably work. Yeah, it was likely work if you just run it in a VM So, yeah, we should try that Yeah, I like I like that idea actually, you know I don't play around with them as much as I used to but I've always been a big fan of virtualization because it gives you all the options You can have everything. Yeah, the only thing that it misses out on is like video and photography editing because a lot of those Adobe products only work in Windows, so that's a kind of a bummer for us Linux users Google has developed and open sourced a new JPEG algorithm called gitzly I'm sure I'm not pronouncing that exactly right, but it's it's my Americanization GUETZ Li it can reduce file size by 35% Though it will compress a little slower than say libJPEG Gitzly is Swiss German for cookie It uses a new model of human vision to decide which colors and details to preserve So it's a little machine learning of what can people actually see and I will optimize for that So for instance, if it's replacing a gradient Let's say there's a little bit of red that kind of just slowly becomes a little lighter red It can just replace that with a solid red Save some information on the file and if it's the right amount You probably won't be able to tell in fact they did a test comparing Gitzly with libJPEG and 75% of the ratings between the two preferred the Gitzly version You can download Gitzly at github. That's g it though And and it's open source so you can implement it anywhere you like This is really cool And I like the idea of being able to use this Like for photography and stuff like that because those files are generally huge So I'm wondering if I realize that it takes a lot longer to compress But I'm wondering if this would speed up load times on the web or anything like that Well, yeah, it's gonna speed up load times at the same Image quality right because it's 35% smaller. It can also the other thing it can do is improve image quality at the same size So if your JPEG used to be 4k You can have a better-looking JPEG at 4k. So it's a couple ways of approaching it. It's really cool Of course, are we gonna see anybody actually adopt this or is this just gonna be one of those other open source? Devices that never gets used well I think this has a better chance because it's JPEG and the fact of the matter is people actually still use JPEGs Not like webm which Google said oh webm is gonna be way better. It's gonna speed up It's gonna look better, but you had to change you had to change to webm This says hey, we're just all you got to do is put in a new compression You can still use your JPEGs and everything and it's cross-compatible every browser already can use it because it's JPEG So I think it has a better shot Yeah, it's cool Recode obtained some internal uber reports showing that the amount of miles driven by uber autonomous cars is increasing But the performance is not improving much the average number of miles driven before a driver had to intervene That is that's like non-emergency stuff like oh the the lane markers are kind of blurry here I'm gonna I'm gonna intervene and make sure it stays in the lane or get it makes the lane change that hovered between 0.8 and 1 mile So if you if you look at the at the graph it goes up and down Over the course of a couple months now granted We're only looking at a couple months in the data that recode has so we don't know maybe it's improved quite a bit compared to last year But they're compare recode is comparing it to Google which has a much more prominent Improvement graph when you look at their publicly were more reported numbers. The other one is critical interventions Those are when you avoid accidents that if you don't intervene there will be damage of some sort That is bounced between 120 miles and 200 miles and even went as low as 50 miles One week in February it it seems to be about flat Whereas the the other one actually both of them when you really look at the graph Seem to be about flat Maybe the critical one is a little bit on the rise because it hit 200 in the most recent day. I Feel like they should work together with Google because it sounds like Google knows what they are doing with autonomous vehicles, but it's still at such an early phase for uber They haven't really hit that mark yet I think that they will eventually but it's it just seems like it's gonna take a long time Especially since we're in such an early phase of this new autonomous vehicle thing that we're starting to see Yeah, and when you're only looking at a three month window of data that is not officially released by uber You don't know all the intervening factors Maybe maybe because they've been adding so many cars and those cars are in new environments in places like Arizona rather than Pittsburgh Those balance out the average and if you just looked at the Pittsburgh ones Maybe it would be better or maybe if you looked over the year you'd see a sharper increase And it just happens to be a weird fluctuation that recently it's low So it's it's easy to draw the wrong conclusion from this small of a window of data But like you say it would be nice if they were working with waymo is the Division of Alphabet that is doing what Google cars did except that the founder a co-founder of auto is accused of stealing Proprietary information from waymo I don't think this it was probably a hard sell before it's there's not a Snowballs chance of it happening now in fact if waymo wins this case There is a Significant possibility if they won the case that they could shut uber's autonomous driving project down Well, it doesn't seem like uber's gone very far if if this data is correct So other than the price of the vehicles and the labor Would we as consumers be missing out on much from uber? I Think so even even if this data panned out over a longer period and it turns out They aren't making any progress competition is always good competition is is good And if waymo looks like they're coming to market, maybe that's what the motivation uber needed to push themselves a little more So more entrance in the market better as far as I'm concerned. Yeah Netflix vice president of product Todd Yellen said Thursday that Netflix will phase out its star rating system in favor of a thumbs up thumbs down System starting sometime in April the company rolled out the new system to a few hundred thousand folks as a test and Found that when they had the thumbs up thumbs down They got two hundred percent more ratings from people if you just had to do a thumb up people were willing to do it Whereas if you had to sit and think about stars you just skipped it Netflix will also start showing a percentage Below titles that percentage will be an estimate of how likely it is you will enjoy a show Based on how others with similar viewing habits to you rated a show I'm so bummed about this I really like the star system, but for me I I didn't just use it to rate the specific shows that I was watching I also used it as a notification to tell me Oh, I've already watched the show or I've already watched this season because the stars would turn yellow after you rate them So I'm really bummed that they're removing this because I'm extremely forgetful when it comes to the shows I'm watching and I don't want to double watch something. Yeah, I think you'll still be able to tell you watched it It's just gonna be different though You're gonna have to to get used to a different system. Yeah, I have to admit I forgot until I read this verge article that YouTube used to do star ratings and they switched to thumbs up and thumbs down. Really? I don't miss it at all I remember now when that once I read that I was like, oh, right I forgot there used to be star ratings on YouTube and everybody thought it was weird when they changed a thumbs up and Thumbs down because we always complain about change But I don't miss it at all now. I didn't even realize there were stars on YouTube. Yeah What was that? It was a while ago. It was like 2009 maybe. Yeah, it was a long time ago. It was not that long ago I should have known that Wow, I Mean I thumb up thumb down because of great inflation, right? People end up just giving everything either five stars No stars or three stars. Oh, shoot. I was all over the place with my wife. I see you're the exception though I must be I am attention to this role. Yeah Anyway, that's that's coming to Netflix and and what do you what do you think about the other thing though the percentage rating that says hey You this is this is how confident we are. We think you'll like this show Yeah, that that actually might be pretty useful because a lot of times I use Netflix's recommendations to me to figure out what I want to watch next especially if I'm in the mood for a specific type of Genre like recently I've been it into anime So I really like the recommendations that they give me based on whatever anime I'm currently watching So that could be very useful All right following on to our discussion from last Tuesday about Robots being covered in human skin In which I was one of the people wondering if you could use this to grow artificial meat Memphis meats is one of several companies developing the ability to culture animal cells to make edible meat in a lab and the company has announced It's first animal-free lab-grown chicken and duck The lab has made a chicken strip out of lab-grown chicken and duck a l'orange out of Lab-grown duck a taste tester told the Wall Street Journal that the chicken was Spongier than chicken breast but nailed the flavor it tasted like chicken which now that you think about it wouldn't it But the price will need to come down Memphis meats estimates a pound of chicken cost at $9,000 to make right now Although last year it was $18,000 a pound for turkey. So it's coming down Expects to get that cost far enough down to be able to sell to the public by 2021 and one way to do that is to work out how to grow the cells in bio reactors We talked about those on Tuesday. Those those allow you to grow three in three dimensions versus right now They have to grow it in thin sheets so so the next thing that we're gonna see on this is Instead of like 3d plastic protruders like that we have in our 3d printers now We'll see 3d meat sculptors that will hopefully take down the cost, right? Well, yeah, I mean if they can grow it in the bio reactors then they can grow more at once, right? That that helps a lot if they can get it to be more efficient at taking in the energy And and growing faster with with a smaller amount of materials that could help quite a bit as well There's lots of factors here the question of whether it's actually environmentally better though is being debated because on the one hand You don't have to take up farm space and arable land By growing animals on it and feeding them and everything, but you do have to heat These bio reactors and you do have to generate glucose which requires energy to be made So there is feedstock of a sort and there's a lot of debate over whether in the end It takes as much or more energy to grow meat in the lab versus out in the wild Yeah, that's a good question Well, I'm sure the you know the vegetarians and the vegans in your audience will will really appreciate the the work That Memphis meets is doing on this project So I hope for our friends out there that our vegans and vegetarians that they Proceed and continue continue to get better with this and make it cheaper so that it can come to a consumer market now in 2021 when Memphis meets is on your shelf at your local store with a lab-grown Chicken breast. Are you gonna buy it? You know, I will buy it just to make a video about taste testing it What if it tastes good? What if you like it?  I think it would come down to cost If it was cheaper than actually buying, you know meat from my local safeway or whatever Then I would probably buy that because I do eat meat So if it did end up being cheaper, yeah I would totally go for it as as long as it tasted good if it gets to the you know, the average cost I think I read somewhere was 99 cents a pound But whatever it is if it's if it's about the same as the rest of the chicken on the shelf I will definitely give it a shot, but it's got it. It's got a taste good. Yeah And it would have to give me the benefits of eating meat like, you know protein and stuff like that Well, it should because it really is meat like it's the same cell content So, yeah, I would hope that that would not be a problem but unforeseen consequences, right? Yeah, exactly That's a good question to ask Hey folks, if you want to get all the tech headlines each day in less than 10 minutes Be sure to subscribe to our sister show daily tech headlines at dailytechheadlines.com Now this Wednesday's security firm checkpoint revealed a technique that would allow Encryption to be bypassed in the browser versions of WhatsApp and Telegram very important They didn't break encryption. They figured out how to get around it To be able to do things like read messages photos and videos The WhatsApp version of this was a malformed image So the image was loaded into a page and if you clicked on it, then it would execute some code Both companies patched the code quickly So the attack is no longer there. This is what security research is supposed to do Find vulnerabilities before bad guys do and get the companies to patch them So it's not a problem Annie Greenberg on wired though in his article notes That this is the kind of problem that you're going to face more often in browsers Because browsers don't discriminate code as much as apps do on phones And even quotes a security expert saying if you really want to be sure Use a phone for these kinds of messaging apps because there are there might be other ways To circumvent encryption in the browser Shannon explain to us why that would be Which part the the why why the browsers have more of a risk than the messaging apps? Well with messaging apps, I think it's because Developers really focus especially when they're working with privacy applications On their applications for Encryption on the phones because those are the ones that are Most likely targeted by hackers and most likely targeted by you know government sanctions or whatever you have With the web. I don't feel like desktop applications are given as much Given as much time by developers as they should be for these kind of vulnerabilities And in the case of these ones it just came down to A javascript api of all things that just runs in the web browser Which i'm sure whatsapp didn't necessarily even think about when they were developing their web application so I think it really comes down to All the different things that web applications have to pay attention to as compared to the very minute details that they have to pay attention To in uh on the phone Well, and there's there's a trickier situation with with the web right the web is a markup language It's meant to just say hey tell me how this text should look And we've done all kinds of tricks like you mentioned with javascript to get around that And make the web do things that it wasn't originally designed to do when you're making an app On a phone You you you you compile the code for the app and then you execute that code and you don't add any code but But with the web there's there's other ways to get that code in right? Luckily, well whenever you're on a phone you're kind of stuck in that application So, you know if if code wasn't built for that application then you're not going to be able to run it in there Unless they are using some kind of Browser in app and again you have those browser vulnerabilities So whenever you're working on your pc, for example, like you are right now There are a lot of vulnerabilities that have been in browsers for ages and the ones that we're seeing with whatsapp and telegram They aren't necessarily new. They're just being used in a really smart way by attackers to take advantage of not only the web app But also the browser itself So they're just taking this old school, you know hiding malicious code inside of an image To redirect people to a url that makes them able to take control of an entire web app Right because in a browser Your your your web app is validating the code as it comes in Yeah, and so if you can trick it right then that you can get stuff in there and whereas with an app The code the code is compiled at Like you said the code is compiled before you run the app And only if the app were to run a browser would it then fall afoul of this because it's running a browser Which yeah, and we in fact We just saw something like that with the nintendo switch which apparently has a browser built in Which I saw and I totally should have tweeted because I would be the first person to tweet about that When I logged into facebook and I was like, huh, that's a browser I didn't even mention it. I was like, man, I should have said something Then I would be the one with all the retweets, but yeah Right it was a webkit thing, right? And so they were able to use the ios jailbreak from webkit to to be able to jailbreak the switch So the problem that we're seeing with whatsapp is they the attackers were able to take just an image like a thumbnail and Underneath it in a way. They were able to write html code that allows them to Take advantage of the javascript api in the browser and that would redirect a user a legit user to a url that would Basically transfer the account to the attackers browser and allow them to take control of the web app on the attacker's computer as opposed to Not being able to see anything in the user's data On the user's computer. So the user got hacked simply by Clicking on an image that they get through whatsapp And then loading this web page. So it wasn't actually an image that they're looking at it's a It's an image kind of hiding this invisible code that redirects them to a really malicious url And when we say the user the user is hypothetical in this case, thankfully because it's a security researcher, but But yeah, that that that hypothetical user gets hacked because they think what they're looking at is an image And and the reason that's able to get in is because the whatsapp code just Looked at certain things to determine if it was an image that Right that allowed it that that weren't the things that were being used to to hide the code So when they fixed it, I guess they just changed how it validates images So the the weird thing here is a whatsapp It does encrypt end-to-end messages in the web application But before it does that encryption, it's supposed to validate the files that you're sending to your contact So in this case, uh, it wasn't validating this html that's written into this jpeg image And it's just allowing it because it's like, okay. It's just another file. Whatever So it gets encrypted and sent to this user So of course the user is going to be like, oh, it's encrypted. It must be legit And then they click on it and they get owned Yeah, because again, it's not breaking the encryption. It's allowing the attacker to access the account behind the encryption And one of the scary things about this uh, this hack, I guess I could call it is that Once a attacker was able to get into the user's account They were able to keep that account because they could write in additional script into their code To allow them to stay logged in even if the user tries to take control Back of their of their account. So the only way that you could really keep this from happening is to close out your browser Refresh the entire account and hopefully your browser Updates the web the web app for whatsapp If they're already logged in though, you would have to log into the uh, the application on another device Say like your phone or something like that and then you would have to Deallow the attacker's pc or the attacker's browser from being able to access your account But you would have to go through a pretty long scenario to actually get them out of your account in the first place Since you couldn't steal it back right then and there Now the upshot here, uh, is uh That this was an unlikely attack Yes, uh, you would have to have a very specific behavior You'd have to visit the the compromised image and click on the compromised image And certainly there are phishing ways to do that But if you're paying attention, you shouldn't have been tricked into this. Yeah at the same time It does show that if you're relying on telegram or whatsapp for end-to-end encryption because you your life is at stake Or or your your career is at stake You probably don't want to use the web version because Even if it's 99.59 percent safe You don't want to fall for that one slim chance that there's some other vulnerability out there like this Because of the way browsers work right? Yeah, absolutely I mean like I work in infosac doing podcasts about security and I could easily fall for something if i'm not paying attention So that's highly recommended within the infosac community within journalist communities is to Just stick to your phone because the development on those applications is way better than what you're going to find In the browser because then you run into a lot of more complications with the software and the operating system and all that Yeah, yada yada. Um, I do want to clarify too With whatsapp you all you had to do was click on the thumbnail within the whatsapp web browser And then go to the page and let it load You don't have to click on the image again or anything. It would just redirect you With telegram you would have to click on a video and then you would have to click on the video thumbnail again And have it redirect you to the malicious file So there was a slight difference with how whatsapps and how telegrams different web applications fell to this vulnerability But it did take a little bit of work for both of them to work on Either one from the user's endpoint. We didn't see anything written about uh, what's it called Signal by open whisper systems, which runs on the same kind of protocol for encryption that you see on the other two And that one I believe also has a desktop application But again, that's a desktop application So it sounds like it doesn't run in the web Which could be a major difference between that one and whatsapp and telegram, which do So maybe whatsapp and telegram should take a note from open whisper systems and make a desktop program If they do want to make syncing available for users as opposed to just using a web application, maybe Yeah, well, and and it it points to the different uh, the different priorities, right? It looks like telegram did a little more work to to validate the web because it builds itself as a secure way to message But telegram has never held itself to quite the standard of signal. I'm not damning telegram by saying that it's just that telegram Prioritizes user ease a little tiny bit more than signal does where signal very very strictly says no We're not going to compromise Uh, almost at all. They do. Yeah for for user ease So it's just a difference of priorities, and I'm not criticizing either one You set those things and whatsapp prioritizes using your ease a lot more than both of those Yeah, and that shows here as well So and and that's something to keep in mind too if you're a whatsapp user and you're just chatting with your friends Chat away in the browser because you're probably not going to be spied upon and you don't need to worry about it It's nice to know that you've got end to an encryption as a backup But I don't think you have to worry about this slim chance of of a browser vulnerability Catching you especially if you're paying attention to the sites you visit and all of that However, like I said, if this is critical to your life, then yeah, you you want to take this into account Yeah, definitely and we should mention too like if you're worried about You know using the whatsapp web app yourself with your contacts If you see a contact send you a file You should probably clarify that it's from your actual contact too because their account could always be taken advantage of And then that could be used to take advantage of other accounts as well through them It could just be like a little hopper back and forth through different accounts So but of course like you said, you know the chances are very low that any You know normal user is going to fall victim or fall prey to this kind of attack Especially since it's already been fixed by both telegram and whatsapp and it was responsibly disclosed to both of the Programs or both of the companies so they were able to fix it within hours. I believe so Very quick fixes props to whatsapp and telegram for both fixing this within Let's see. It was released on March 7th. So it's been under two weeks So really happy to see that and if you are worried about it, you know, just use the phone app You'll be fine. Yeah Well, thanks Shannon for explaining that that was that was very helpful Anytime it's a little hard on this one because I I don't use javascript apis very often and that was A big part of this web Web dev issue, but I tried to you know make it easy Yeah, well, it's that javascript just in time compilation. Yeah just in time to hack you Just in time to hack you And it reminds me a lot with this whole you know hiding code behind an image It reminds me of steganography even though it doesn't sound exactly like steganography Which is where you hide code within a jpeg image in this case It was hiding code kind of invisibly in the web behind a jpeg image or right in front of it Where the user is going to see it. So it's a little bit different from steganography, but um very similar in way Well, thanks everybody who participates in our subreddit helps us pick these stories You can submit stories for consideration and vote on the other ones at dailytechnewshow.reddit.com Just got a couple emails about the amazon echo and its amazon voice service coming to smartphone spy smasher Who sounds like the kind of person who would try to get into your whatsapp Says since neither of you mentioned it a number of mobile apps already exist that do give you direct access to amazon voice services assistant Reverb is my personal favorite The reason I really like the functionality is that I can just tell the echo to turn on my house lights And adjust other smartphone features while i'm driving home without having to go through menus to activate them Also, it enables me to listen to my audio content including daily tech headlines and access my skills library while i'm away from home Although I understand why amazon is integrating it into their shopping app I personally like having it separate sort of like facebook messenger as I find it valuable just hitting one button to start issuing voice commands Yeah, we should have made it clearer that this isn't the first time you could get amazon voice services on ios It's the first time coming from an official amazon app. However, but I didn't know about reverb. That's a great one So you should check that out folks and then dwayne Who's in t-shirt weather germany said don't forget that cortana is already on android and iphone and obviously windows Much more limited on the iphone, but it's there She's always getting better on android as well and I use her on both my android and windows devices So yeah, I mean there's also viv Kicking around out there and you there's actually a lot of voice assistants that you could choose from It's just whether you could make them default depends on your operating system Do you use any of the voice assistants yourself? I do. Um, I use okay google. Sorry everybody. Uh, just all the time I had to do it Yeah, I use uh, I use google's assistant all the time just to you know, check weather and stuff like that And I do have a echo setup here in my household as well And um, I recently set it up with like Hue lights and stuff that will automatically turn on which just makes my life a little bit easier And yes, I keep it in a room where I don't go in very often So if I am talking to people in my living room, for example, the echo is not going to hear what I'm talking about I keep that in mind because I too am paranoid Yep Harish a fellow patreon from india who also helped me Properly pronounce karala. That is the indian state. We were talking about yesterday He says it's karala the same as care as in caring for someone. Thank you harish Just a personal opinion as someone who lives in india on the possible motivations behind karala declaring internet as a basic human Right karala is a relatively small state within india But has long been known for its high rate of education and literacy It has the highest literacy rate at around 94 percent among indian states But in spite of this, it's not the tech hub of the country unlike bangalore hyderabad, etc Tech companies have strayed away from investing in karala Primarily due to the labor union laws of the state And I feel that part of the motivation behind enabling internet for everyone Is to entice tech companies to invest in the state in the same budget session that announced the internet as a basic Right was the plan to boost jobs in the internet sector or the tech sector by 250,000 just wanted to provide an added perspective on the story. Thank you harish for sending on the ground report from india That's fantastic Very cool Yeah, finally david from bright and sunny berkshire england says Every time my wife and I daydream about winning the lottery and she fantasizes about us moving to some far flung paradise island I balk at the prospect because I don't want to go to heaven if amazon doesn't deliver to it Having said that I do not think the internet should be defined as a human right I originally come from a country where many people do not have access to running water And most people don't have constant electricity. The government is working towards those goals But everyone accepts that those targets are a decade or more away Those should be human rights and I'm afraid that adding the internet to an essential list Will either distract the government from those vital goals or serve to trivialize the whole list The internet along with flat screen TVs in a good coffee shop are essential in countries that have those basic problems Solved but let's not confuse them with human rights. Thank you david Hmm That's a good debate to have Yeah, and it's an interesting perspective because it's not someone who's coming entirely from the lap of luxury saying Ah, the internet's frivolous when you're someone, you know living in a harder situation saying no, I really need it It's someone saying yeah, but you really need water And electricity first in fact kind of have to have electricity to really make the internet work At least at some level and he's saying i'm worried that if you put the internet on it Some people will see it as frivolous and prevent us from getting these other things done So it's it's an interesting point. I still think there's a way to do all of them And maybe a way that the internet helps bring electricity and water To more places perhaps, but he's got he's got a fair point. There's certainly more direct experience with it than I have Yeah, he does have a good point I've always looked at it as internet is a human right because you you need it to succeed in life these days You need it to you know get a decent job I mean people check those things and you need to be able to understand how to you be literate on a machine We have this in the hacker community There's this this charity called hackers for charity and they've been bringing internet connected computers and devices to different countries and different places in africa Trying to you know bring more connectiveness to them so that they're more able to get Jobs that bring them out into the world as opposed to you know just being stuck in these very small tribes to be honest But again, they already have water and they already have shelter and they have food So yeah, do you put it on the same list? Is it like endangered animals where we put several endangered animals on it? when you get to a specific number or Should it be in its separate scenario? Should it be in its separate uh genre? Yeah, as I said yesterday, I don't know that I'm convinced it's a it's a human right yet But I'm very convinced it will be Uh, it's just a matter of time For it to work its way into our society to the point where no you can't live without it because yeah In many places you need it to pay bills and have a job But not in all places yet and I think until it's everywhere that that's kind of my standard of like Okay, when everyone is depending on it, then I think it will qualify Do you do you happen to recall what part of Africa that group you're talking about works in? Um, I'll have to look it up. Uh, it was on hackers for charity dot org. I believe it was so Yeah, you can check it out if you guys want to um, I've been supporting them for ages So that's cool. Yeah. Yeah, it was a really cool thing that the hackers did and we would buy t-shirts that say I hack charities Everybody would be like why why you hack charities for a good cause Hacking not attacking, right? Yeah, it's good stuff. All right. Uh, well, thank you Shannon for joining us Of course, you can find a lots of good stuff from Shannon over at hack five dot org aka 5.org what you got going on Oh, man, it's kind of crazy right now to be honest. Uh, Darren just left for a hack across the planet Uh endeavor. Yeah, he's gonna be out in I believe eastern Asia like indonesia and places like that for A good 13 weeks and I believe he'll fly back a couple of times But so he's bringing me uh segments He's sending in segments about different scripts that he's writing for our new bash bunny and stuff like that And I'll be working with him to introduce new theory on these different topics That will kind of match up with his code. So I'm pretty excited about it It's kind of a new endeavor for us and it's a new season. So, you know, hopefully everything goes to plan But we'll see We've always kind of changed it up every few seasons. So this is one of our times where we're changing it up a bit Yeah, try new things. That's great. I'm excited for him too. That's going to be a crazy experience. Oh, yeah It already has been yeah We'll check it out. Uh hack across the planet dot com actually right that that still works Yeah, hack across the planet dot com is where you can find out Like where he's going to next and if he's going to do any meetups And you can also find all of this stuff that we do all of our videos over at hk5.org as usual Len Peralta has been busily giving us his depiction of Lab grown meat. Yes. Yes, you know early in this week. I got a tweet Uh, you guys obviously mentioned during the show talking about robot cows And they said, oh, Len Peralta should have drawn something like that So when I saw the Memphis meet thing, I thought oh, this is a perfect opportunity to draw Something that's a little bit strange now keep in mind I talk about Memphis meets with a z. Yeah, not Meets totally different This is my opinion of what Memphis meets with a z Would probably be like meets with a z, of course means animal free and it will taste whatever it tastes like whatever the thing It's supposed to taste like so kind of an upsetting picture of a weird human ugliest chicken Some sort of weird chicken duck thing that's coming out of a petri dish. You know, you just gotta go take a look at it It's so weird Right. It is. It is really weird. This is your r crumb moment on the show You know, I did something similar to when we talked about 23 and me So maybe this had a companion piece to that one, but yeah, just go check it out at the store It's lenperaltsstore.com Oh, and I also just want to mention you mentioned this early in the week as well If you haven't seen on twitter or on instagram or every other place I post My son has had a great week winning three huge awards for his painting work That's amazing. The biggest one, of course, is he won an american visions medal And is trying to get to For scholastics and he's trying to get the new york city to cardigan hall to accept the award So to that end, uh, both he and I are selling our art online at our big wacky commission sale If you go to bit.ly forward slash max the painter you can pick up prints high-quality jacquely prints of his work A print called study at norman rockwell and also another one called no skating Or you can commission me for some stuff We're trying to raise enough money for us to actually make it to new york So you can go to new york and accept his award in early june So if you if you can help that it'd be great It'd be a great opportunity and also this is another thing if you are upset about the nea funding that you know This is a great way to support artists directly support artists like myself and also young artists like max as well So, uh, yeah, you're good about halfway there on the on the commission. So we're yeah, we're about we're about 38 percent of the way there So little anything can do to help if you also want to just donate without buying a print you can do that as well But of course, we'd love to be able to to draw stuff for you and do Do original art so we can do arts. That's what we do around here Go check it out bit.ly slash max the painter Yes, and of course, thanks to everybody who gives a little value back for the value They get from this show as well including anthony diana mary and marcolly christie's many more at patreon.com Slash dtns one final reminder Don't turn off the podcast yet If you're in los angeles because we're having a meet-up at book soup saturday at 4 p.m 88 18 sunset boulevard west hollywood california It's a signing of my novel pilot x Which will be on sale there. I'll be able to sign copies of it or if you are to have a copy Bringing on by that's fine. I'd love to sign it And of course Anybody who listens to dtns who just wants to show up and hang out and talk to other listeners And myself will be there from 4 p.m. Probably till Around 6 p.m. Maybe something like that at book soup in west hollywood california right here in the los angeles area Our email address is feedback at daily tech news show dot com or live monday through friday 4 30 p.m Eastern at alphakeek radio dot com and diamond club dot tv and our website is daily tech news show dot com Back on monday with veronica belmont talk to you then Show is part of the frog pants network. Get more at frogpants.com Diamond club hopes you have enjoyed this program All righty Yay Yay Good job everybody. I'm gonna miss there. I miss beautiful No It's gone for 13 weeks. I'm gonna miss. I got I got shattered. Would you put your art first art up shannon went beautiful? I did I totally did Oh man, that's uh That's gonna be the thing man.  What's up with browser security? What's up with that image? What's up? What's up with everyone's just Biocad just did a bunch of whatsapp ones. What's up with browser encryption? What's up with that phone? Let's give this life this chicken chicken breasts looks like a player winner It's spongy because it was an exercised Oh, yeah, the the the meat right you need to take this Lab grown meat and put it on the robots we talked about Tuesday. Yeah, put a robot put it on a robot chicken Oh, that sounds so creepy. You know, I I imagine that this meat would be a sort of like sometimes you get these chicken nuggets from like a store like and and You know that like necessarily, you know, you know what I'm saying It's kind of talking about they're spongy a little bit spongier because that's what I just it's just the The the sort of like leftover pieces of chicken. It's yeah after they've because they've de-boned them Right and they press them together. Yeah, that's what I think it would be like So well, so some of those tastes like that not because you're just press me It's just because they also use a lot of soy to fill out To give it a little more mass Because then you would have more breading than actual meat I mean, honestly chicken strips and chicken nuggets are probably the first application of lab Absolutely. Absolutely. Now. Let me I'm most curious. So would this qualify as like kosher or ha ha like Because it's not technically an animal Mmm, that's a really good question because kosher usually has to do with the process and the butchering of the rabbi But if there's no animal, can you just do the blessing would that work? Would it need to be blessed at all? I mean, do you need to bless vegetables? Well, no, well it is using cells of an animal. So that's that's kind of you know I know but do you do well you could say the same for butter or any kind of milk based Food item. I mean do those also get blessings? I guess I don't know. I don't know how Well, this is another step removed because it's not just the cells from an animal It's cells that we were grown from a cell that used to come from an animal. So It's uh, and also like what about vegetarians would vegetarians chow down Well, no, I've I've heard vegetarians with different opinions on that some say. Yeah, this is totally fine like we We are not we are not killing animals And even even to harvest the cells is virtually pain-free. It's no different than you know scraping your own hand Right, which makes which makes some other especially vegans say. Oh, so we could eat human meat this way then Potentially. Oh man Rose Well, so like the one thing against cannibalism is the fact that uh species Generally don't want to cannibalize because there's too many easily transmittable diseases Right between and so if it's lab growing, but that's what I'm saying. Maybe that taboo could go away Oh, that's freaky. Yeah Roger, I don't know if I want to be in the same room as you right now I'm thinking about that thing that we were talking about a few days ago on the show where life finds a way Oh, I love that pulled long pork.  Yeah, that's how they First people don't it's huge in hawaii Well, yeah, there's a bunch of different. Um Oh, what what title are we going with I need the title? Uh, I thought we're gonna go with boneless skinless lifeless chicken breasts Shannon, are you okay with that? Sure Just having your name attached. We could go another way. That's why I'm asking We can only go with another way.  I was I was leaning towards hold on. Let me find it again um I was leaning towards one of the what's app ones. Oh, what's that with browser security? We could do that. Yeah Because all right. Yeah, and that's that's the main topic. Yeah. Yeah. All right Done, this is why I ask Thank you because we will entertain although not necessarily agree with your decision. It's not a democracy Like like uh to quote a line from uh Crimson tide it's like we're here to defend democracy not practice it That's dts in a nutshell. Yeah That's awesome Also, we had a a meat related title on tuesday when we talked about the robots. So that's The flesh of all things all these meat titles make me hungry.  Why do I want to put the stuff of nightmares on my wall? You know, it's a personal choice Some people like that. Oh their wall People like this people, right? It's weird. You know what, you know what? It's gonna it's gonna come down years from like in a couple years when when uh, Memphis meats is like the biggest seller of this stuff and then I would have drawn this years ago And it'll come up and be like, oh man. What were we thinking? So these synthetic meats and GMO crops. It's gonna marriage made in heaven or purgatory I don't think this I don't really I don't I don't know if this is going to really How do you know catch on? I don't know. I just the automobile the automobile catch on until the roads Yeah, but lab lab-grown meat It's sort of like sort of remember Alestra. Just yeah, but Alestra was basically uh, gross. Yeah It was a derivative of um Not it was a pound but it was based off a polyester That's so gross. It wouldn't digest and they gave what they call mechal leakage.  Uh, not if you want it to turn blue Well, where did I it's it's just gross or does it hurt you? No, it's just it's it's shocking if you weren't expecting it If you don't if you look into the toilet, let's just say if you have a blue looking up stomach when it comes to food Don't eat it That's like when they had the meningitis scare when I was in college and they gave everyone this medicine that turned your pee orange You know and they at the first when they first started handing it out They weren't telling people that and people were freaking out And other people because the school colors are orange and blue We're saying oh, it was a ploy to get us all to Have a school spirit. Well, it's like Like beads is is a very good vegetable for a root to eat But it all like red beads and unfortunately turns your uh, yeah It turns your solid matter red and it freaked out it freaks out people and don't even get me started about asparagus Oh my god, my friend called me and she was really upset.  Why didn't she call you? I'm upset because I'm a gentle so I'll be other people's downtown. You're not a doctor Either were you No, she was trying to call the other option to call me either. She was trying to call roger c the guy who knows all about Dr. Roger, if you ever have a question about something, don't you call or contact a trusted friend first?  It's you so I totally get it Roger, I've accidentally severed my leg from above the knee Here's what you do call 911. All right. Thanks roger You might want to sit down somewhere. It's gonna be a while There's a bunch of other things in the chat room by the way that talk about changing the color of your leaving Which is a pretty hilarious Christmas crunch cereal Red and blue crunch berries.  I was like, oh, it's a you know, little baggies of cereal you give kids to show them up And that's what it was like Oh my gosh Yeah Well, I'm I'm glad I could move this into this direction today. Yes. Thank you I was busy buying a study on norman rock. Rockwell by max Oh, thank you for having this conversation. Oh, thank you. I invite everyone to join me What was the one with bit dot ly slash max the painter sort of like chance the rapper only it's max Nice We mad max Yes, be painting for a post apocalyptic or post You know, it's sort of funny. I have a here's a funny story Um, this is the difference between me and him.  I don't want to like have to work I'm like, but this is kind of if you got to like hustle man You got to hustle and figure out like What the next clue if you want to be an artist for a living, you know, you've got to hustle. Yeah, right That's what it was. He's like, no, you got to hustle So I was like doing all the legwork Eventually this is my see this is my lot in life I might actually end up probably retiring as an artist and and managing him or something, you know That's probably what's gonna happen Which I'm fine with what you should do are oil Painting renditions of all your dTNS artwork. Oh my gosh I told him he's a really he's also a really good cartoonist and I told him I said you should take your cartoons and paint them Because that would be super super cool. He's like, no, really. No, so I tried to show him like Burke breathed and stuff like that and you know, um, he's gonna do his own thing We're you know, he was uh We were both watching the drew streuson video. That's why I was kind of doing these streuson inspired pieces and He's but he can actually do them like for real like actually paint them And I have to do them on digitally. So it's an interesting It's interesting, but thank you so much. Do you find yourself? Yeah, sure. No, my pleasure Uh, do you find yourself learning from him? Yes, I do. He does. He does all he does things that I can't even imagine Doing like in his art and and it is it's it's cool. We'll share techniques or I'll give him some I'll give him some hints. It's so funny. There's that that painting you did of the skateboarders Like I'm like I was it was this dad moment I was like, this is what I would have done.  And uh, he's like he looked at it and he's like, yeah, that's good. And then he went and did his own thing It was like Yeah, this is what it is A modern day cop with some old timey skateboarders Oh, that would well either way. I think well, no, we would have been cool We would have given the opportunity to draw all like the like the the skater logos and things like that And and then that would like robocop With back to the future era skaters Oh, that's cool. I like that. I like that idea. See I that is what I knew you would like I don't by the way, this is this is what we've been working. I bought this book, which is Drew Strousin's I don't even know how you pronounce that Over over And then this one with the art of Drew Strousin, which is If you love it's got everything in here, man. This guy worked on everything. He's so good Blade Runner All the star wars stuff so good. God. It just makes me want to cry when I read this stuff So good anyhow But everybody do everybody follow tom's lead and and help us get to our goal. So thank you And thank you. Thank you for changing the subject. Tom. That was very We're done for the day don't eat any people have a good weekend Hopefully I'll see some of you at book soup on saturday. Yes saturday morning I wish I could saturday morning is different saturday evening for book soup four o'clock or after. Oh, yeah