Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen and welcome to this Middle East Outlook session at the World Policy Conference in Abu Dhabi I'm Terry Martin. I'm a Berlin based broadcast Journalist and some of you may remember me from yesterday when I chaired the Ukraine session Today I'm jumping in for Stephen Erlinger Stephen Erlinger I understand is a regular at this conference He was originally scheduled to chair this session, but was called back to work So my apologies to any of you who were expecting to see Stephen Erlinger up here. There's no way I can fill Steve's Big shoes, but I assure you I will do my very best to make this panel worth your while I'll introduce our distinguished guests in just a moment, but first I want to say If this conference had been held one month ago We would be having a very different conversation than the one we're about to have right now the attack by Hamas on Israel on October 7th and Israel's response have shattered the status quo and Put a big question mark over the immediate future of this region The repercussions, of course, have been global. It's being felt around the world Over the next hour and a half. We'll explore What has changed since October 7th so far and what hasn't changed? What's at stake in the coming months and how the conflict might shape the region moving forward now We're not going to talk exclusively about the conflict, but there's a good chance that 98% of it will will be related to it now Understandably public attention right now is focused very much on the suffer on the profound suffering and risks Inherent in this war, but I will encourage our panel to explore To also reflect on the possibility for exploring a viable solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict because obviously such a solution Can be regarded as essential to the future of peace and stability in the region Now we do have a great panel on this topic. I'm gonna just quickly introduce them now Starting from my left Muhammad Bahroon, I got that right as director and co-founder of the Dubai policy Public Policy Research Center before that. He was editor of the Gulf Defense Magazine and worked for multiple media outlets. So a colleague in that sense He played a key role in the United Arab Emirates national identity initiative I understand and he's a founding board member of the of a busola the busola Institute Which is a Brussels based think tank focusing on the ties between the EU and the Gulf Cooperation Council states. So, yeah Nabil Fahmi next to him and I'm sure that Understand that you've been here also time or two yourself Is Dean emeritus at the American University in Cairo or he founded the school of global affairs He's also a career diplomat. He was Egypt's minister of foreign affairs and Also ambassador to the United States and Japan before that He also worked extensively with the United Nations on disarmament and international security Renaud Girard is senior reporter and international columnist at the French Daily Le Figaro He covered global political crises and armed conflicts for 40 years He's a journalist or also a colleague in that sense, but you know very accomplished much more accomplished than I am He's written several books on the Middle East and diplomatic issues. So he's well-versed in these topics Polka Pautas someone I've known for quite a while in Germany when he was head of Stiftung Wissenschaft and Politique that's international in the Institute for international and security affairs SWP some of you may know He is currently under secretary general and head of the strategic review team of the United Nations assistance mission in Iraq He formerly served as special representative of the secretary general For Sudan and head of the UN's transition assistance mission in Sudan He was also UN assistant secretary general and senior advisor to the UN special envoy for Syria And was previously director of the as I mentioned of SWP So we've got someone very with intimate knowledge of a couple of the signatories of the Abraham Accords as well It's a mar Rabinovic Was supposed to be be joining us. He couldn't travel here. He's going to still try whether we're trying to reach him right now He was planning to visit us remotely. We're hoping that he'll be here He's professor emeritus of Middle Eastern history at Tel Aviv University And president emeritus and counselor of the Israel Institute with offices in Washington and Tel Aviv Distinguished fellow at the Brookings Institution and so on he served as ambassador of Israel to the United States and chief negotiator with Syria in the mid 1990s that that experience would be very valuable to have with us today I'm hoping that we will still be able to contact him Remotely, I'll keep you up to date on that and at the other end of our large stage here We have Dorothe Schmidt. She is head of the Turkey Middle East program at the French Institute of International Relations if free which behind this her work has focused on European policies in the Mediterranean and the Middle East on the Dynamics in these regions and on the Arab policy of France She's done extensive work tracking the emergence of Turkey as a global power So thank you to all of our panelists for being with us today It's an amazing group of speakers that I think are going to be able to Give us some real insights on on where we are and where things might be headed We'll start with each of our speakers delivering some opening remarks Remarks will be delivered partly in English mainly in English partly in French So if you need some headphones, please please get them now I will then get the discussion going along the way I plan to integrate some input from from the floor from all of you So during the last third of the of the session We're going to try to I'll be calling on you for questions or if you just raise your hand when we get there So let's let's see who wanted to be first. I think not be a family wanted to be first.  Thank you very much. I'm not sure I wanted to be you Nobody wanted to be first that was the point Kindly offer. Let me first thank Terry for the kind invitation to be back here It's always been in very informative event for me. I've learned a lot from many of the panels. I want to also start by repeating what you just said a Month ago or a little bit more when I first got the invitation to come Look at the topic and I frankly would have given you a completely different presentation Because as an Egyptian Looking westwards. I see a failed state on my right in Libya I See a failed state in Sudan southwards Was no peace process. There was no there was no violence But there's no peace process looking eastwards between the Palestinians and the Israelis Syria is still coming out of a nightmare and then all the way down to Yemen and the tensions with Iran there were a lot of problems. I Won't focus on any of them, but let me simply say that I actually expect what happened in Gaza They have negative effects on all of these Because on the one hand there is clearly a regionalization of conflicts in the region with the major powers Trying to figure out what role they want to play and there's going to be an opportunity for Players in all of these conflict conflicts Try to get as much more leverage of their positions than in the past when We weren't focused on the Gaza issue second point. I'd make is And I've gone horse trying to make this over the years is Never assumed that the Arab Israeli conflict is over Only because there's no active bloodshed occurring And it's something that we kept hearing over and over again the Palestine issue is not important It's not a pressure point. It's not a priority It always breaks out Unless we solve the problem between Arabs and Israelis The question will never be Whether or not there will be violence it will be when is the next cycle of violence Whether it's on the previous conflicts I mentioned or on the most recent conflict countries in the region have to Have better governance and when I mean that I mean not only domestically and regionally But also in terms of respect for international law in their international relations unless that becomes the focus of How we operate and how we move the idea of a balance of power that's always a variant and The problem here is that it's not always a balance of power between nation states It's a balance of power between who's ready to to cause more damage and more pain on the other side when One looks at what happened recently clearly There is a higher profile for non-state parties and clearly There is an argument being presented. I don't agree with it that irrespective of the issue revenge and Collateral damage in you may encounter damage is acceptable in order to respond to what is considered to be the initial source of conflict my We my point really here is we need to have an Arab Israeli Process that leads to Arabs and Israelis living peacefully in the Middle East and at the core of that is the Palestinians and the Israelis That will require Ending of occupation and it will require to be able to have the national identity for Israelis and for the Palestinians in Viable sovereign states. I've heard very frequently that Two-state solution is dead or difficult. I I argue it's difficult much more now than in the past. I don't think it's dead and I Though I hope it's not dead because I don't see a one-state solution as a viable alternative to solve the problem one state solution means that the Israelis and the Palestinians Or go their desire for a singular national identity and Decide on a common identity between them and I don't see that happening peacefully. It may become a one-state reality But then you will have continuous conflict between these two peoples because it can't be a reality That ends up giving priority to one state versus the others. Now. Let me just for a very few minutes My country started the peace process with Israel after embarking on a war which was intentionally started with the Explained objective of starting negotiations. That's I'm talking about the 73 war And we were the first to sign a peace agreement That being said even back then in the 70s part of our agreement with the Israelis had a framework agreement or To create a threshold for an agreement between Palestinians and Israelis What happened in the last five weeks four weeks? Is really going to the core of Arab-Israeli hatred and anger and if we start to light that fire again We will all pay a very severe price for nation-states as Angry as they may be have to respect international law have to respect international humanitarian law and including the laws that govern war and We need to go back to trying to establish a two-state solution now. Is that possible now? I'll sum it up in very few words we need to deal on an emergency basis with a Crisis management situation the continuous deaths of civilians every day destruction of Gaza About 25 if not 30 percent completely destroyed cannot be the basis for Relationship between Arabs and Israelis or every combatant That is killed you are planting the seeds for 10 more who have lost family and will want revenge and retribution in the future, so The we need to get a ceasefire not for the ceasefire's sake but just to control the Viciousness of the combat with the objective of ultimately then moving on to a conflict resolution phase Which has to be essentially a two-state solution? I would argue that this requires an Arab initiative We need to take the issue in our own hands and it also requires responsibility of the major states Globally be there the Americans. I just came from China the Chinese or anybody else to go back to How do we bring the parties the Israelis and the Palestinians in particular back to a negotiating table if they don't believe in the end result This is be my closing comment Having done these negotiations for most of my career This is not the best time to start this project By any standard whether and whether it's respect to the leadership paradigm on the Palestinian side or the Israeli side But we can't afford not to and I therefore suggest that Dealing with the crisis situation is imperative, but then What we need to put to the Israeli and Palestinian Center to the public is Not an interim solution. We need to actually offer them. What are the elements in as much detail as we can of closure? Where will the two-state solution actually be? How do we deal with the different components of that and that will ultimately? achieve for Palestinians what they want in terms of national state and it will achieve for the Israelis what they are even calling for in the midst of combat, which is security For Israelis in the future. So let me just throw out those two points. This is not the time for Continued violence there. We're planting the seeds of Non-state party violence for the future and it's not the time for incremental proposals Because they aren't enough to bridge the pain and get over what's happened over the last few weeks. Thank you very much Now be a family think thank you very much You've touched on a number of points, which I'm sure we're going to be picking up on over the next hour or so What's what came through for me most importantly? It's not just an Israeli Palestinian issue There's the Arab Israeli issue that needs to be addressed as well And there may be room within this and seeking solutions and in these processes that you've suggested need to be pushed forward There may be a role for other actors outside the region from around the world To play a diplomatic role. Thank you very much We're going to move to Dorothy now Dorothea Schmidt the floor is yours Thank you Terry So I think it's not an easy moment for us all because we lately we were mainly commenting on the Deconfliction in the region Speaking about the Saudi Iran normalization about the Abrahamic Accords, of course prospects of normalization with Syria that had been ushered back into the Arab League and now we've just been Drawn back again backwards in history to this Israeli-Palestinian conflict that we all Wanted to forget or we it seems that we miss something something very big because now we see the consequences consequences are sort of spreading within all of these conflicts That we were trying to solve just like Nabil Fahmi said I must have speaking as an as an EU citizen Who's been an observer? Rather fascinated observers of the efforts that the EU's done to establish and stabilize the Palestinian Authority all of these efforts that felt totally into the Hamas trap in 2006 after the elections When the EU decided to turn its back on on Raza and we are now Against as I said drawn forcibly into this trap So the three points I want to make is first that I think we're going through a moment of flu that has been described more less by Nabil Fahmi in the beginning of his speech saying that Most regionals actors are still struggling with where they should stand and what how they're going to coalesce or not to find a solution But my concern is that this moment of flu could freeze into a sort of again the West against the rest and Raza will be the sort of symbolic points that would catalyze this divide of the West Explicitly said the US the EU and Israel against a very Heterocrit sort of a group of countries that have stood against What they feel as blatant injustice against the massacre in Raza that have been are being perpetrated by by Sahel currently as a sort of revenge operation for this horrendous attack that they've gone through in early October So my problem is how do we avoid? Falling into again this narrative that I see emerging Against this flu and the flu is because we work on the backdrop of the collapse of state structures Most of the countries in the region. We've seen that in CIR arguably Lebanon is becoming sort of face-state as well war are spreading None or unresolved conflicts and we have also this flu between what is a conflict? What's the war that was alluded to by a theory this morning and I see I heard the Rasan Salami saying now you don't declare war these days We slide into war. So this is this is the concern we have is that we've been drawn into war everybody's wondering about Potential escalation with Lebanon the Hezbollah says they don't want to go to war the limit Lebanon is exhausted but they might be sort of sliding into war without even realizing it so This this emerging Rational of the the West against the rest on Gaza specifically Goes with this idea that the the area of conflict is enlarging in the mines There has been a historical effort to sort of constrain the conflict to Palestine against Israel After the Arab-Israeli conflict, but I think this is totally failing now On the contrary lots of countries now feel Concerned for the situation there, but the other side which is also a lot worrying for our own societies Western societies is that through migrations and diasporas? We see the divide operating in our own societies now and threatening order peace In our own societies and in France. This is particularly a clear so Who is the rest if we have the West on one side the rest is you have two very big Opportunistic actors Russia and China clearly Russia now turning its back on Israel, but also Israel turning its back on Russia So this is sort of mutual soft divorce currently China who is now expressing interest for the they have they have always said that they were in favor they were in favor of the Two-state solution. I mean if you if you go to the sort of very Classical consolidated rhetoric of the Chinese they may have been the last defenders of the two-state solutions in the world Maybe but I see Africa and Asia a lot as I said now standing against The humanitarian massacre, but also whether they feel as a political injustice in Gaza The second point is in that context. I think I think three countries are especially interesting to look at The three countries to me. I know of course Israel Iran You know some protagonists that we will have to dwell on to speak about more later But for me what's more interesting nowadays Egypt Why because it was the first Arab countries to make peace with Israel and now As Jordan actually there's a question mark about how to proceed When large the zone of peace the second interesting actor protagonist is Saudi Arabia Because there is a lot of pressure on them to revive the peace plan And the idea is that maybe there could be a sort of coming of age of the Saudi diplomacy now And as Nabil Fahmi said we need an Arab solution for this We need an Arab plan anyway, so they may have the symbolic material resource But do they have the political maturity to do it and the third country which I know and I'm following on a daily basis is Turkey Which actually moved from the status of outsider to a primary actor in this conflict also with Taipeh Dohan having pursuing a very consistent pro-Palestinian, you know stance and Being extremely vocal against Israel for the last 15 years And proposing to mediate and the beginning and now again escalating rhetorically against Israel But my my concern is that you should think in terms of military escalation I mean everyone has also said many times that he thought Sahal was behaving in a very un-moral way and that they should not go too far etc. And we know Turkey is the one Military power that is extremely active in the region currently and they already had an skirmish with Israeli forces in 2010 that led to the breakup of relations with Israel So to conclude how do we avoid this scenario and sorry I'm insisting on these three countries also because they're on both sides I won't say that they're private countries, but they're friends of the West, but they talk to the rest They're part of the rest if you want So how do we avoid this scenario of an isolated West against an angry global South as the Americans would frame it? I think it is very clear that we have to take political responsibility for the Palestinians and not economic responsibility The matter has become political again And there of course Americans are the ones who everybody will turn to to make peace and I think again They are the number one and we see blinkin has a very hard time now traveling to the to the region and rebalancing from week to week how to operate with every protagonist of the crisis The EU that has been rather silent Has stood with Israel, but clearly there is this Deep historic regret of having failed on the Palestinian solution But I think the the country that we have to speak about also is clearly there in terms of responsibility Israel Because first thing is that I think you have to make peace with the countries you are all you are at war with I mean the Abrahamic Accord are a very interesting device diplomatic device But the countries that are involved are not the ones that have to make real peace with Israel. In fact, they're not Primarily concerned with the conflict and then I think of course we have to Find a way to make the Israelis look at at the at the Palestinians political partners again and not only as a sort of a leftover of a of the the grand quest for the consolidation of the Israeli nation-state So is it wishful thinking of course we will be struggling we now we know it now it's time for war clearly But it's also time for the humanitarian operations as had been said all for these three days also but working towards a Sustainable solution I like totally agree with them if I mean that it now it's time to close this file Otherwise it can escalate So we have to close it It means we also have a historical opportunity to take care of this This requires political patronage clearly from the US according to me and this will not be easy With maybe the next administration. We don't know what the future brings it needs political will But it also needs economic resources, of course, and this is where the Abrahamic Accords rational has its place clearly Thank you very much Dilatate I You know you've covered again a lot of ground did all of the points that are being made here are hugely germane to our Discussion you mentioned Turkey. It's my understanding that President Biden is planning to meet with Turkish president Reguptav Erdogan tomorrow. I believe he's traveling to the region that that should be an interesting meeting to keep our eyes on The points you were making about the potential the risks inherent in this conflict that it has the potential to Freeze over into a conflict between again this term that's been popping up here The West against the rest and you were you kindly helped to define what the rest might be and Where we had a bit of an issue on that yesterday, but you also pointed out the risk of this you know of countries Who in the region sliding into war thinking particularly about About has Bola and Lebanon on this the risk of that but you then emphasize the the importance of of trying to expand the Zone of peace as you put it which I think is a nice phrase to describe the some of the surrounding Arab countries that have made peace with Israel and potential for doing that forward So your question about how to get the Israelis and the Palestinians back working on a on a common political project for their own Mutual benefit would indeed be the the challenge. Thank you very much the I'm I can see now on my screen that we might be able to bring in our Our participant from Israel. Yeah, look at that. I do see something great. Excellent. I'm really happy about that Just just tell you guys I'm wearing my my headphones Maybe this is for the technical crew because the monitors it makes it very difficult for me to Understand what people with the other end to even write you know next to me are saying so I'm just wearing this for my own benefit Thank you very much now Ita Mar Rabinovich, can you hear me? Yes, I can Excellent. Oh, and you hear me we can and we're so glad that you're with us because your voice in this conversation is essential Can you tell us where you're joining us from we can see you're in a in a vehicle? I'm in a vehicle We had some understanding about the panel, so I'm not At my home as I plan to be I'm in my car, but Speaking on my phone And Excellent we can see and hear you very well, and it's just fine that you're in that car We're very glad that you can join us today Would would you like to offer a few comments? We've just been getting underway I did an introduction of our guests including yourself with the hope that you would be joining us and We've heard from a couple of speakers so far. We've touched on some of the themes You know, we've been in email contact with one another So we're staying pretty much on track with what we discussed. Would you like to offer some comments to the plenary? At this point over the next couple minutes and then before we move on to the next speaker Yes, yes, I think that you need to look at the so-called the day The day after the day after We must have a vision of where where we want to take the region and the Arab-Israeli relationship to which means dealing with Larger Palestinian question in the Israeli relationship with the Palestinian Authority and I I heard the reference Before to the West against the rest. It doesn't have to be that And I think there are several countries in the Middle East that do not see the problem with the West but see the problem with Iran And our host itself Saudi Arabia and others have been the targets of violence by proxies of Iran. I see that the current war is Not just a war between Israel and Hamas, but between Israel and Israel is targeted or threatened by five Iranian proxies and In order to organize the region to deal with these issues They will have to be a plan for dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian relationship It's difficult to envisage it. We're in the middle of a war We have The wrong government the wrong Israeli government for doing that, but the need is there the debate inside Israel today is do you deal with the Political issues domestically in the middle of a war. Do you wait for the end of the war? Whatever that and Maybe But I hope that at the end of it there'll be in government in Israel that would be willing to look at the larger picture and to fit into a scheme that would help organize the region Including dealing with the larger Palestinian question Thank you very much If you don't have anything to add we'll move along That sounds it didn't take you very long to get to Iran and Iran's proxies The role that they're playing in this in this war. I think that's a hugely important part of this of course We need to discuss that. It's also important what you mentioned about the political context within Israel itself and the Ability of the Israeli government or willingness of it to To address this problem in a constructive way. These are question marks that you've raised Thank you. Thank you for now. If you don't have anything else to add. I don't want to interrupt you Okay, our our our connection seems to be stable. I hope it will stay that way So we'll continue then here on on the panel bringing in voices Let's go now to Volker Pertes. You're next Sure, thank you. Thank you, Terry. Let me first say I have to say that I'm speaking here in a In a purely private capacity I have colleagues in the UN system who are working day and night on the conflict and they are the ones who should speak officially for the For the United Nations, but of course, I'm a colleague of them and I I support the great works they're doing both on the humanitarian and on the political front When I thought about this panel, I thought that I I hope that this great group of people Would probably come up with two things a with with lessons which we always need lessons From where we go from here what we have learned from from the current crisis and what went wrong before and then of course avenues for Diplomacy avenues for diplomatic actions blows both to protect civilians and to reach an end to the conflict and to open a new path to peace and Security in the Middle East which would include of course that Israel can live in recognized and secure borders and that's a Palestinians can live in dignity in their own state and in peace with in peace with their Neighbors, maybe I should start with a comment what actually Happened or how it looks to me on 7th, October. We had an unprecedented horrific terrorist attack Targeting mainly civilians more than a thousand killed more than 200 abducted taken hostage and I Think that not only in Jewish eyes This Does not look Like an act of resistance against occupation, but it looks like a pogrom it looks like mass murder and nothing else and it was followed by a Horrific counter-attack on the Gaza Strip Which has been creating a humanitarian disaster unprecedented for the Gaza Strip at least the victims again being mainly civilians and the order or The advice to one million Palestinians from the northern part of the Gaza Strip to evacuate to the south Brings up for many Palestinians the trauma or the memory of forced Displacement placement and exile I can only underline here what my secretary general secretary general of the United Nations Said that nothing Not even the grievances of Palestinians Over decades can justify the appalling attack by Hamas but also That this appalling attack by Hamas cannot justify any Collective punishment of the people in Gaza Even wars have laws we call them international humanitarian laws Today and in our international humanitarian law has to be upheld any time we need an immediate and Unconditional release of all hostages We need immediate Sustained humanitarian aid and we need at least a humanitarian ceasefire to make that possible Let me add that the Secretary General of the United Nations also And he was heavily criticized for that by some actors. He also spoke of context or He said that this horrific acts haven't happened in a vacuum and yes He was criticized for that but let me make clear that if you speak of context and Context as such Does not justify Anything Certainly not actions against our deepest human norms But we do need to know The context in order to understand the chain of events and even more importantly We need to be aware of historical contexts in order to lay out a Strategy and a path for the future if we try to strategize without context We will not get very far So let me come to the lessons. I Think the main lesson and Nabil has has basically said it in different words and Anwar Gargash spoke about it yesterday is That it is not possible Achieve peace and stability in the wider Middle East Without an acceptable solution Choose a Palestinian issue or put it differently. We cannot substitute regional peace Or peace between Palestinians and Israelis. I think the Government of the United Arab Emirates was aware of that When it signed the Abraham Accords because it linked its signature at that time to Israel abstaining from Annexing parts of the West Bank. So the link was was very very Here I think the second lesson again and again and it's not a new lesson is that You cannot separate humanitarian political and security issues or put it differently again if people are left in utter humanitarian distress also after this crisis and this will only breed more desperation more hate and probably also New terror So where to go other avenues for diplomacy. I think we have to distinguish between the immediate and the midterm in the immediate Future in the next days in the next weeks Of course, I repeat we need a humanitarian ceasefire or humanitarian ceasefires and we need to prevent the wider war or sliding as Dorotus had Into a wider war, which means a lot of responsibility for regional actors not only For the United States or United Nations or other international players, but particularly for Actors in the region Now speaking of Arab states here who have made peace with Israel at the same time. I'm looking to this country here Who have also normalized relationships with Iran which actually gives a chance to work for de-escalation region was a midterm I Guess we should not ignore The date of sihamas attack, which was exactly 50 years after the October war or Yom Kippur war of 1973 and that I think raises a challenge to international diplomacy to In a way try to make this another 1973 moment Now, I know historical analogies only go so far and they are always limited in value, but 1973 war With the effort of strong American diplomacy at that time led to peace between Egypt and Israel and it led to a stabilization between Syria and Israel which held for decades and It let the PLO Palestinian Liberation Organization to embracing political engagement and focus on statehood and Statehood at the side of Israel in the West Bank of Gaza Now, of course, I know that the history of Middle East peace efforts in the 50 years had passed Was full of failures and setbacks and people who wanted to undermine it. I don't want to go through this history It would also take us much beyond our panel time here however, I would in this context say That diplomacy after this war Needs to restart serious comprehensive peace efforts and I totally concur with my friend Nabil that if it doesn't look as very realistic Probable to achieve in the next couple of weeks or months or years. We still have to make an effort. There is no alternative to that And what does it mean? I think it means in the first place that diplomatic efforts to Find a solution or find a series of interconnected solutions Cannot be about recreating the status quo ante in Gaza Which is about or has been about in the last couple of years managing or as Anwar Gargash said yesterday containing the conflict that has not worked I think that's a UN Security Council has to decide on security arrangements for Gaza Rather soon and if I take up what Nabil said about an Arab initiative or an Arab plan I think security arrangements could or probably should include a UN mandated temporary Arab military presence in Gaza in order to maintain security and Keeps a peace after this Israeli operation or war and then we need a well prepared New peace conference comprehensive peace conference that will certainly not be for 2024 because it needs time For preparation It may arguably be co-sponsored by the United States and China under UN auspices, I hope and it should clearly define The two-state solution as an outcome not sort of be too open on Outcomes as some of the other speakers said the two-state solution is back because the alternatives to the two-state solution have not worked and it needs to include social economic dimension Which also builds on the Abraham Accords As well as the normalization between Gulf Arab states and Iran So looking at the conditions here We are actually in a slightly better place than we were in 1991 There are other dimensions where we are not in a better place But let us look to those conditions Which we can use or exploit productively to actually go forward On a path out of this catastrophe And into a peaceful or more peaceful future of the Middle East. Thank you Thank you very much Focupetez Some excellent points there both reviewing the where things are now and how it relates to What has happened in the past looking at At wars in the past that have indeed led to Opportunities windows for pursuing peace with at least some of of Israel's neighbors What I found particularly interesting that the point you made about the The need for a UN mandated temporary Arab military Presence in Gaza at some point to to as a stabilizing temporary Transitional period also is something I'm hearing more and more about Also at this at this conference. So I mean, thank you also further for the UN reviewing the UN perspective and also the Importance of context that this is the context here is hugely complex and important very good Sitting right next to me I haven't forgotten you and I'm I remember you being a very polite host saying that you you don't want to be first And so I'm we're going to get to you. You're going to be last So you will meanwhile though we're going to give the floor to Renault Girard The floor is yours Merci October The consequences are evidently quite different From the terrorist attack on September 11 The terrorist attacks on October 7 Will have, I think, a considerable impact On not only on the region but I even think on The entire world. So in fact, if I were to give a summary my conference would be a local conflict A world price And it's not the case of all the conflicts Recently We had a conflict In a territory about as big as La Sigeordanie La Sigeordanie is a French department like Superficies, it's about 6,000 square kilometers It's called the Haut-Karabas And all the population of Haut-Karabas ended up being hunted In a conflict If we take the conflict of September 2020 and the last days of the conflict Who, in the number of deaths is about what this conflict of this October has done It went completely like a letter to the post Nobody spoke to us much more in English in the world that is happening at the moment like the conflict between the Tigrayans the Eritreans the Amaras, the Oromos, the Ethiopians Nobody speaks and it continues with a number of deaths and refugees much higher Why do we talk about the time of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? First, because in international relations the feeling is much more important than reality It's the feeling of reality that is important and the feeling is that there was an abominable crime in Europe and the West especially the Americans who didn't do much to save the Jews because of the Royal Hotel where they refused to take the Jewish refugees from Germany the great power of the time and the Soviet Union for other reasons wanted to repair a a crime the crime of choice by an injustice or what was resented by an injustice the problem is much more complex than that because in fact in Palestine you have two legitimacy the Arab legitimacy since in 1880 there were 500,000 Arabs for 30,000 Jews in Palestine which was an Ottoman region and the Zionist legitimacy because the Jews came from Europe they built a state when they arrived in Tel Aviv there were marais there were moustiques they built this state so you have two legitimacy which is opposed but the feeling of not only Arab nations Arab peoples I'm not talking about governments I'm talking about populations because we repaired a crime by an injustice but it's the same for non-Muslim populations of other continents we saw very strong reactions for example in Latin America to these images to feel in Latin America while in Latin America there is nothing with the problem of Israel and Palestine so this October there will be consequences first, local local conflict and global consequences local consequences it's very simple in Israel we now have the proof that the security right is less good than the progressive left to protect the citizens Israeli citizens no left government had 1400 massacred citizens and the mistake it's ideological is that we have disbanded the southern front to send it instead of protecting the internationally recognized borders of Israel we have been sent these Israeli soldiers to protect illegal colonies and colonies that have been very bad since the beginning of the year killing more than 200 Palestinians with a sort of license to kill given by the government of right and extreme right Israeli this is the proof and obviously the government will have to pay to not protect those who were more pacifist and who wanted peace with the Palestinians on the side of the Hamas there will also be a problem that we didn't quite remember is that the feeling in the Arab population it's true that in the social networks we have saluted the Hamas military to have used these these little helicopters but there was still a very big problem of a discipline and of crime against babies against old people and all the movements and resistance movements are not in the story of the Middle East I personally attended after the Israeli retreat of 2000 which had not been announced where the Israelis betrayed their Christian allies of the south at the take of this territory by the Hezbollah not a gif not a flight not a rape the discipline and this discipline which proved the Hezbollah there are some officers of the Melaad who were but they were not released I brought it to justice and I think that the Hamas there will be consequences for the Hamas in this incredible discipline of the soldiers who committed all these horrors then of course we have a polarization accrued between the West and the South two measures because the feeling is that we have heard the West giving a lot of lessons especially during the destruction of Mariupol in Russia in Vladimir Putin and there not only the Muslims of the world who are behind the Hamas banner but also in Latin America but the American bombs in Gaza are exactly the same it is Mariupol who is doing it so it was an incredible gift which was made to Putin other economic consequences the First Minister had announced the Constitution of a new economic corridor between so he said the India the Emirates the Saudi Arabia the Israeli Jordan he had to compete with another route project China Iran Iraq Syria attacked Greece I think today the new corridor announced by really like Abraham's agreements really the Dutch plan so to conclude there is a good news there is a world consensus maybe not within the Israeli society but even in the Israeli society there are many people who agree you have to fix the Palestinian problem you have said it is absolutely wrong to say it is impossible to do it is difficult but it is absolutely possible even it is enough to look at the agreements the negotiation of Taba of course we can have Jerusalem as capital of a Palestinian state because it is enough to walk port of Damascus only Arabs who live there for the Palestinian state to face the 22% of the Palestinian people who were accepted to Algeria by Arafat in 1988 but as Eli Barnavi said who was an Israeli historian who is the former ambassador of Israel to Paris in fact Israel for its good must be imposed a solution because Israel is too strong and therefore only an international conference can impose a solution to Israel this international conference is not very difficult to organize because in fact it is a subject where you have a convergence the Americans, the Russians, the Chinese the English the Saudi the Arabs have the same idea the problem we have is that these great international actors agree on the solution for the Israeli-Palestinian problem but it is tripping on other subjects is the meeting possible it is a technical question I finish here it is a technical question the people of WCSI are the best and so I am waiting your suggestions I think repercussions are indeed being felt all around the world there is no doubt about that we feel it in Western Europe where I live it is being felt in Latin America as you pointed out in many different parts of the world so there is a lot that is dependent on what happens next thank you very much for now and I have to apologize I think most of our speakers my apologies to the audience for not leaving as much time for our discussion at the end as I would like but we are going to move towards that last phase of the program and it is my great pleasure to have Mohammed Baharun now give his observations thank you very much I will try to get to the seven minutes mark hopefully first of all thank you very much for having me it has been a long way to be here in the UAE to be part of this discussion the title of the discussion and this is a sort of a warning I think we have heard is the Middle East in the next five months that is right next few months that was the title Middle East warning nothing about this region is regional everything is global and I think we have just heard that so there is always global implications five months we have already a few months we have already heard that a month ago things could have changed and I think this could stay but let me talk about Gaza as an example and this is when it comes to the operation it is a local operation we have got Israeli troops and they are conducting an operation in Gaza which is so it is a local war supposedly but there is also a lot of regional fears we have heard the fear about Iran or its proxy being involved in this war could spill out and that is one of those fears but there are also international realities part of the international realities is that there is about 40,000 American troops assembled in the region and we have got warships from the US, from the UK from France, from Greece in the region and we have also heard calls to turn the international coalition against ISIS to fight Hamas so there is a reality here that this is already internationalized we are afraid of regionalizing it but in reality it is internationalized and that is going to affect us now if we want to talk about what could happen in the few next months and I think the current progress of the operation and we have seen to the extent how many times the ground operation has been either delayed or changed over the week can tell us that this is going to be a lengthy operation and with that length of time will come casualties in people and that casualty of people would have an impact not only regionally but also internationally also the objectives of the military which is eliminating Hamas is very difficult to say at this point of time we can call this mission a success mission accomplished it is very difficult to draw lines on when that mission has been accomplished again that would draw a lot of time and would also affect the casualties but also there is this concept of those bridges of cooperation is now regressing so we have already seen the impact on countries like Turkey already mentioned countries like Egypt has been warning that if people have been driven into Gaza an operation across the borders to Israel a response from the Israeli could take us back to the time when there is war we are going back to the 1973 so those bridges of cooperation are now being hugely challenged and what it tells us that the clock in this region is ticking backwards we are looking backwards when the terrorist organization that was considered the terrorist organization today it is very difficult to discriminate it from the Palestinian people and you can see people going out in the streets calling for free Palestine no one says down to Hamas so that area between what is right and what is wrong and it is not because of the virtue of what Hamas did it is because of the virtue of the reaction to Hamas and I think the concept of international law when it comes to wars come to mind but it is the sheer understanding that what do you do for peace and I think this is the role of the armed struggle I think is coming back and Hamas is possibly now in the same position where PLO used to be during the Munich attack and you know this is now people are saying again that this is ISIS is different from Hamas because ISIS has occupied land but Hamas did not occupy land it is occupied those type of comparisons are now becoming common ground which hasn't been two months ago or three months ago and what we've heard several times here and I think as Excellency Fahmi was talking about the national identity this is going back to become an identity conflict and unfortunately it's not a nation based it's a religious identity it's a Jewish identity and it's quite you know difficult when you see for instance Secretary Blinken coming to Israel after the attack and say I'm Jewish I know what he's doing but for the rest of the world what they see is that this is now turning into a Muslim's conflict and that is a very difficult position to be in because it will bring back all of those identity conflicts that we have seen in the past so if you want to look not only to the next few months because it's you know really very limited what are the long term impact in the next few years so I think one of what we've here is the attraction of the west of the global west in front of the expansion of the global south it's not the north versus the south it's the south versus the west and we've here this very clearly before and I think this is a reality if you look at the pattern of voting in the UN this is quite obvious and I think we shouldn't be slipping into that type when whatever is always connected to international community to international norm we just looked at this as just the western norms and it does not apply all the time it applies in certain times I mean people would say you want Iran not to intervene but the US is already intervening on the ground and that's contradictory when it comes to principles and we're also looking at the rise of the middle powers middle power states are now taking lead because international leadership is not being regarded as something that is going to take us somewhere and it's quite interesting to see for instance countries like Saudi Arabia or the UAE celebrating the G77 over the G7 because they see that the future of the world order is to the middle and small powers organizing together, galvanizing a position together but there is still opportunities opportunities is the analogy made on what happened after 1973 which is the peace because any war conducted is a tool, it is not an objective and the objective of any war is peace so how could we peace be looked at in this so I think one of the major concepts that we can see today is that there is a failure in the concept of security at gunpoint weapons do not buy security security concept is changing we have seen this here in the UAE after COVID-19 we've seen that with all of the military mind that you might have it's not going to stop your people from dying and we realize that walls is not going to buy security it is roads that will create security I don't think that this is a concept that has been seen inside Israel today I think Hamas is here in this region I think Hamas is in a position to do exactly what the PLO did at a certain point of time exactly what the Saudis did recently is turn from a resistance group into a state and I think this is where we need an investment in statehood the statehood not only of the Palestinian state but also the statehood of Israel because Israel is our partner in peace Hamas was not our partner in peace at most of the time it is difficult to have partner in peace who does not do their due share when it comes to peace and I think I'll stop there I might say something later on about what Iran could be looking at but I'll stop there I really appreciate you pointing out the fault lines that are associated with this conflict that extend to different regions but to other parts of the world it was interesting to me how you set up an opposition between the west and the south in this case when we talk about what is the rest when we talk about the west versus the rest we've had that located in China and Russia we've had it located now in the south I presume the global south you're referring to there by that probably emerging nations I also found it interesting your reference to Iran and it's the contrast with the United States Iran of course has its proxies in the region so they're not official forces but I found that interesting parallel but we are going to be coming back to this we only have like 13 minutes left in this session and I'm told that I need to be on time I'm only going to ask one question I've been preparing this for some time as you might imagine so I have lots of questions here but I'm only going to put one question to the panel and we don't need answers from everyone but maybe someone who wishes to jump in on this before I open the floor and that is the question so what next we've talked about this possibly indeed creating conditions that would allow the pursuit of a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict which would have great value, Falka Pautas suggested steps that could be done in that process but the question is under the auspices of whom how would that process be started how would it be organized who would take the lead on that would it be the United Nations the United States, the EU the EU has offered to host a peace conference we've seen Egypt host a peace conference very early on that didn't get too far but how do we begin to work on a solution under what construct any ideas from any of you what would be most promising may I say that any solution should start in Israel and in Palestine which means we now need a good will capital from Israel saying I am in for a two-state solution because unless that is clear any effort we're doing is going to be momentarily building this of course would need to be there on both sides that's clear but I'm just wondering under whose auspices Falka Pautas one of the things the auspices is an easy one you can have it under the auspices of the United Nations but the question is who leads the conference and I think if you don't have the heavy weights in it will not lead to anything I mean remember 1991 if at that time the US hadn't been there together with the Soviet Union which was on it last breath it wouldn't have gone forward so it's very clear that the US has to be at the head table and leading it and putting all its weight behind and then you have to ask who are the main associates which the United States needs in the current geopolitical and regional situation and here would say China has to be at the head table there is no I mean you can add others but China has to be there and yet then you have to have the Arab states who already have peace with Israel at the head table we don't have to make peace between Israel and the Emirates or between Israel and Jordan or Israel and Egypt or Israel and Morocco but these states have to be there as key mediators when you say the main players in that would need to be at the head of the table in dealing with this what about the elephant in the room what about Iran the elephant has to be at the table but not at the head table so Iran does need to be part of this and that would imply direct talks with Iran which would be an interesting prospect in itself I saw there was you wanted to intervene quickly or not just quickly and then I'm going to open the floor yes very quickly it's impossible to take a step deal with Gaza if you don't also link it to where you're going after Gaza Arabs will not create a force or be responsible for Gaza after all the devastation that occurred on the ground unless they can argue this is a step towards the two states solution so there has to be not only a statement also a linkage to where we're going towards the end of this and let me just make again one of my last point you should not be surprised why the Arabs are looking at the west as being biased you are biased but the what surprised people in the Arab world isn't your bias it is how far that bias is when you stand up against a ceasefire against even the humanitarian ceasefires when you attend a war cabinet then you can only blame yourself for the perception you leave okay that was a reference to Joe Biden's visit to Israel okay we are going to open up their floor now I see many questions on both sides we'll start from we'll go one in the middle then to the right and then to the left so sir I'm Stan Kozman from Capgemini one observation and a question observation is that to my knowledge the last time there was a serious attempt at a two state solution was 23 years ago in 2010 Eud Barak and Yasser Arafat trying to translate that today clearly it can't be Netanyahu and Hamas so it has to be a change in governance on both sides to make this happen with the support of this conference that you have been talking about now my question is assuming fast forwarding to let's say March next year assuming that this conference takes place with intent to have a two state solution blessed by this community what would that look like it can't be Gaza plus Jordania so what could be the border between two states under this scheme thank you very much I'll just comment before we pick up one more there was going to the lady here and then to the gentleman in the third row and then sir we'll come to you but not quite yet we'll come to you in a moment so the lady I just want to point out that in the year 2000 during Camp David when Eud Barak and Yasser Arafat met in the United States I was working for CNN at the time and it was one of the most poignant moments of my life when we got Saib Erekat on the phone walking out of the White House and I put the question to him why are you walking away from this deal which seems so close to a two state solution and he told me the right of return of refugees there are multiple issues and also I'm sure would have to be addressed along with the future of Jerusalem and the West Bank yes ma'am thank you sir I enjoyed the remarks that Itamar Rabinovich said which is let's talk now about the day after I have followed lately the comments of what he calls himself next leader of the Palestinian authority once Mr. Abbas passes away which I don't think would be very far so he believes that there is no such thing as a two state solution that Netanyahu has killed it so now we have to talk about the one state solution that's what he says and he thinks that the beginning of this is to get Mr. Netanyahu out I think that Mr. Rabinovich says exactly the same thing because they can have a new government with a new government it will probably be the people who are now demonstrating against Netanyahu who will form this new government and who will be much more amenable to speak about the solution of the Palestinian question please ask your question because we only have five minutes left please ask your question if you have a question or if you have one quick comment because we do want to allow other questions I have a comment, not a question what I just said that this Palestinian leader lives here he's called Mohammed Dahlan he has excellent connections with Israel with Egypt with the ruler here and I think that he should be put at the table and discuss what could happen because he has supporters inside Raza thank you very much he's been giving some interesting interviews providing some insights so now to the gentleman who has his hand up if we could get the microphone there and then we're going to get some responses from the panel thank you very much just two quick questions about long term geopolitical landscape question one what is the prospect of Abraham accord paradigm it seems to make sense to achieve Abraham accord paradigm seems to make sense before October 7 but now Abraham accord paradigm will get suspended unless two state solution will get realized and second question is if Abraham accord will be suspended Abraham accord trend will be suspended for maybe in the meantime how will Gulf state coexist with Iran thank you thank you very much all relevant points and questions we're going to just take these three first get a response and if we still have time we'll get to you anyone on the panel like to take any of those points that were made we've got a couple of things on the table very very well please join us yeah okay so the key is to bring the Palestinian Authority back into the picture first if there is an interim arrangement in Gaza be Arab, be international it has to be temporary and the Palestinian Authority that was expelled from Gaza violently by Hamas should return to Gaza and administer it this should invigorate the Palestinian Authority and make it again a viable partner for Israel to discuss the long-range two state solution put it on the agenda again this would enable other Arab states or the Arab states to join it we don't have too much time remember it's an election year in the United States and we don't have too many months to wait until that happens so action should begin quite immediately thank you very much yes sir there was a question about what kind of two state solution if I take you back not only to the Camp David negotiations between Israelis and the Palestinians and ultimately the Clinton parameters but I even take you back to what you said earlier the Taba talks all of the details of every single item are dealt with there there was no formal approval of these items for different political reasons so my point really is it's not about that somebody have to come up with a new formula for the border it's 67 possibly with some minor exchanges or refugees that's in the the Arab peace initiative which talks about an agreement on return of refugees and so on and so forth including East Jerusalem it's about the lack of political will so what I was trying to say at the beginning is let's put the essence and as much detail as we can of what the package will look like to resolve this once and for all if it results in a change of leadership on one side or on both sides ultimately that's not my concern my concern is the change moving towards peace between Arabs and Israelis particularly the Palestinians rather than moving towards a new cycle of violence there is no permanent security if the conflict continues great thank you then we will take one more question from the gentleman here in the second row and that will be our last question for today then we're out of time there were people several conferences several meetings to mention that as of Madrid Oslo who didn't have a solution of peace as stated by the Palestinians to have their right that is a Palestinian state with a capital and this process has failed because of the government of the Israeli government who didn't follow now my question to Mr. Brahimovic is that the Gaza crisis will make a price of conscience in Israel to end a political power that would accept the Palestinian right to a state thank you very good Mr. Ibrahim I can answer that go ahead public opinion polls in Israel show that 80% of the Israeli public lost their faith in the government and there is a debate whether you go through a change of government in the middle of the war whether you want to wait to the end of the fighting this could happen either through a new election or through other mechanism that the Israeli constitution constitutional arrangements I'm sure that sooner or later there will be a different government in Israel hopefully but on the other side thank you thank you very much I'm afraid we are out of time I've been told not to go over and I also know that some people have to catch a plane so we're going to leave it here ladies and gentlemen thank you very much for being with us thanks to our panel warm round of applause for a great discussion


Does the narcissist recognize your worth once you've separated? Does the narcissist recognize your worth? Will they ever recognize your worth? Before the narcissist met you They carefully looked at you and everything you had to offer They examined you in order to make a judgment and form an opinion They recognized that you had something of value to offer them They recognized that you had something to provide They came around you because they thought that it was a convenient situation for them They thought it was going to be beneficial to them No one is going to put themselves in a situation or environment Where they believe they're going to be at a disadvantage But they believe they're going to experience difficulties or hardship Unless they think there is something they can gain from it So they knew that you had something of value to offer them They believed that they were going to get something out of it If you look back and think about it They initiated contact They aggressively pursued you They love bombed you They gave you excessive compliments and praise They put in all of this work Because they were expecting something in return They knew they had struck gold They knew that you had something valuable They knew that you were full of goodness and righteousness So they recognized that you had something of value But they didn't really recognize your worth as a person A narcissist cannot see you as a real person They just see you as an object They just see you as something that exists to meet their needs All they care about is what you can give to them or how you can make them feel They are self-absorbed and they lack empathy So they could never connect to you as a human being Which is why they're so superficial That's why they're so heavily focused on their image That's why they're only concerned with materialistic things Because there's nothing beneath the surface They lack depth And a person must have that Before they can fully recognize and understand it in someone else Which is why they could never understand you They could never share your experience or put themselves in your shoes They never had any interest in doing that Because they're very superficial people Who are only concerned with their own feelings and needs Which is why you could never have a deep, meaningful conversation with them Everything was very shallow Because they can't really recognize your worth as a person That means nothing to them They see that you have something of value in the beginning It's like they're hungry And they pick out a burger or some other food that they like They consume whatever benefits them Whatever satisfies their hunger But then they throw the packaging away Because they don't need that It doesn't do anything for them They are like packaging that looks good on the outside But then there's nothing of any real meaning or purpose inside But that's also how they see you Because they cannot experience that side of you They cannot experience your true depth and intensity So once they've come around you And got your attention and admiration Your money and affection There's no reason for them to stick around Because as far as they're concerned Everything else is just garbage It doesn't do anything for them Because they cannot connect to you any human level They're very superficial So they just see you as an object They just see you as something that exists to meet their needs They don't see any purpose in taking an interest In your thoughts or feelings about something They don't see any point in having Deep meaningful conversations with you Unless they can use it to get your attention So that they can get something out of you in the future But even then They're not going to be interested in anything you have to say They're just going to pretend like they're listening Because none of that means anything to the narcissist All they care about is superficial things Anything to make them feel better Whether it's money, sex, cars or clothes Anything else is just irrelevant to a narcissist It doesn't mean anything It doesn't do anything for them So, no They do not recognize your worth as a person They cannot see you as a real human being Because they're not real Only real can recognize real You have to have depth to fully recognize it In another person Which is why it was so easy for them to discard you Because in their minds what they left behind Was just garbage anyway They got all of your time and energy They had all of your attention They had sex and money In their minds that's all there is Anything else just goes in the trash But although they may not have recognized your worth as a person They recognize the worth of what you had to give to them That's where they pursued you That's where they seeked your affection and love That's where they seeked your support They did whatever it took to get you Because they knew that you had something valuable And their goal was to get all of the good things That come along with being with you To reap the benefits of rewards To milk as much out of you as they can So they're just sitting back And consuming everything that you are But really they're just thieves They're like people who steal your property Because they use stealth Their behavior is marked by secrecy And sneakiness Because when they first make you They acted like they wanted something deep and meaningful They acted like they wanted to connect with you But really They only come around you to steal from you To deprive you of everything you possess They will take whatever they think is beneficial to them They manipulate and lie to you Because that is the only way That they can get anything from you They're not worthy or deserving of anything you have But because of their arrogance And entitlement They feel like they should have whatever they want They can't see any reason why they shouldn't get it from you If they can use deception To deprive you of your money and possessions If they can engage In an imaginative game or fantasy If they can give the appearance Of feeling or possessing an emotional quality And behave as to make it appear That something is the case when in fact it is not Then they will do it They will rob whatever you have They will rob your love and affection They will rob your goodness and righteousness Your money and possessions All of these things that they don't even deserve And they already know that they don't deserve it Which is why when it's all over If they ever recognise your worth And why they may not have valued you in a human level They look at it like they snagged someone Who was more attractive or successful than they are It's all about what they managed to take from you It doesn't have anything to do with love They never valued or appreciated you as a person They just looked at it like they had a good time They got to reap the benefits and rewards Of something good Even if it was only for a short time There's no sentimental value They're not reminiscing over anything to do with you It's all about what you provided to them They robbed you So they're not thinking about if you meant anything to them They just see it as a come up They just see it as though they've gained something That's exactly how they're thinking Whether they were in a relationship with you Going through a divorce They're just thinking about how they're going to take your stuff They're not reminiscing over what you meant to them None of that means anything to a narcissist When you've separated from the narcissist The last thing on their minds is love or affection Or anything to do with any sentimental value They don't care about that It does nothing for them To them that feels empty and meaningless All a narcissist really values is superficial things So they're missing the benefits that you had to offer them When they move on with something else And they're living in poor conditions Or they have less money They start missing the benefits that they had with you They're not missing you as a person They cannot experience love Because they lack emotional depth Or their experience is misery and shame And they just spend their entire lives Doing everything they can to avoid reflecting on those emotions Which then causes them to miss the material benefits that you had to offer But from the moment they met you They never took the time to even recognize your characteristics Or the inherent parts of you They lack emotional depth So they could not experience that depth within you Which means that they lack the awareness And the ability to even recognize Or understand the value that you had to them Or they can recognize or be aware of Is superficial things Things that exist on the surface Which means that by default When they come around you All they can do is take from you Thank you for watching I hope this video resonates with you Please like, comment, share and subscribe If you would like to donate My PayPal link is in the video description Coaching inquiries You can email me at www.thecurryuk Thank you for watching and I'll talk to you soon


Suspense! Autolight and its 96,000 dealers present Mr. Mickey Rooney in For Love or Murder. A suspense play produced and edited by William Spears. Oh, Wilcox! Right here! Say, aren't you Remingtonchester Shotgun, the big game hunter? I am? Wilcox, someone said you could help me. Oh, what are you hunting? A battery! From a car! Well, your safari's over.  The battery that needs water only three times a year in normal car use. Capital! I shan't have to scout for water holes anymore. Right you are!  While in recent tests, based on SAE life cycle standards, Autolight Stay Full Batteries gave 70% longer average life than batteries without Stay Full Features. Get an Autolight Stay Full Battery, the battery that needs water only three times a year in normal car use. Remember, you're always right with Autolight. And now with For Love or Murder, and with the performance of Mickey Rooney, Autolight hopes once again to keep you in suspense. Nothing could have stopped me. Nothing on Earth could have stopped me. There were drums beating in my head as I left the taxi and started down 55th Street. The moon was high over Jersey, staring. There was no one outside the building, no one near it at all. I walked slowly toward the service entrance and into the cellar. I knew where the back stairs were, we'd rehearse the whole thing on paper a hundred times, more than a hundred times. It wasn't something you blundered into, and it taught me that. It wasn't something you did on the spur of the moment. Murder had to be a calm, organized thing. Murder had to be planned. If anyone saw me going up the back stairs, it might cause a little fuss. But if I were calm, if I were organized, if I moved slowly and acted as though nothing was wrong, they'd pass and ignore me. I was just an eccentric fellow who'd rather walk upstairs than ride elevators. New York was full of such people. No one saw me. All the way up to the fourth floor, no one saw me. Then I stepped out onto the landing. I waited an hour or ten seconds or ten years. Time meant nothing. I wasn't aware of it passing. I slid the gun into my hand. It felt as hot and heavy as death itself. Oh, you're late.  I thought you weren't coming. Where is he? In there. In there. Who is it, Anne? Who is it? Do it quickly, darling. Do it fast. Who is it, Anne? Who are you? What do you want?  He looked like a little fish. Like a helpless, harmless, scared fish, and the drums in my head beat louder. And the wheels turned, the lights flashed, and that little man melted toward me. No, I see. I see. No. No! I hit him! I hit him! I hit him! I hit him! I hit him! He must be dead after that. He'd only fought back or something. He just took it. No, he's dead. He's dead. Huh? Now, dear, me. You've got to hit me. I didn't think it'd be like this, Anne. How'd you think it'd be? A tea party? So awful, dirty, and... What's the matter with you, Tommy? I didn't think it'd be like this, Anne. You can't weaken now, Tommy. No. Take the gun. Yeah. The rest of it. The other things you've got to do... Yes, I remember. Hit me hard. You've got to hit me hard. Hit you hard. You've got to be Marx. Mustn't look like I've framed this. Now, it must be hard. Yeah. And then the jewelry and stuff. Jewelry and stuff. I pile him up on the dresser and his wallet. Here. Take it. It must look good, darling. It must look good. Yeah, yeah. And must up the room. Now, you remember? I remember. I remember. All right. Now, quickly. Hit me. Hit me. I love you, Anne. I must love you very much. Hit me hard. She fell, but she didn't just fall down. She fell into a graceful little ball. Even unconscious, she seemed in perfect control of things. The room. The room had to be ripped up. Ripped up. The room had... Took the stuff she had piled up on the dresser. Bracelets, rings, pins. I stuffed his wallet into my pocket. Then I got out. I got out as fast as I could. The way was clear all the way down, just a cellar. That was all that was left. One fast. Whoever it was came straight toward me. He saw me. There was no hiding. And he was between me and the street. He shoveled toward me. I lifted the gun. Just a second, young fella. Let me get the rope. I swung hard and spun back into the rope. I waited a moment. And then, still empty. When I came out, I felt like running along it. Almost ran along it. The night was cool. The air felt good. I walked away. I walked away. And I thought about love. About me being in love. And love was this. What kind of love was it that made a guy behave like this? What kind of love was it that caused people to be hurt? People to be killed? What kind of love was it? I walked up. I walked. Finally, I looked at my watch. Ten minutes. The whole thing had taken just ten minutes. What was the rest of it? Yeah, I had to get back to the club before it was time for me to go on again. Before it was time for me to seat myself at the piano in the lounge and soothe away the cares of tired, sophisticated New Yorkers. I had to get back quickly. No one saw me. The back way. I used the back way, the same one I'd left by. Yeah. That was my life from now on, maybe. The back way, sneak in, sneak out. It'd be hard to break myself from the habit after tonight. But it was cheap. The cheap price to pay for it. Any price really was cheap to pay for it. And that's all I had to ever remember. I was in my little dressing room for two or three minutes. Chance even to wash my face. Yeah. Yeah, I'll be with you in a minute. OK, Tommy. The wallets, the bracelets, the junk I'd forgotten to get you and get rid of them first thing Anna told me. And I'd forgotten. I didn't want them around. They might make trouble hanging around. Hello, Tommy. How's the boy rock mononoff, huh? Hi, Jimmy. Have your nap all set to go? Yeah, I slept a little. I'll be right back. Sure, kid. How are you, Frank? I thought I'd get a little air. Yes. Nothing like it. One thing about being a doorman, I don't make much money, but I get an awful lot of fresh air. Fresh as you can get in New York anyway, huh? Right you are, Mr. Lee. Gonna take a little walk. Certainly hit it right that time. Fresh as you can get in New York. Still high over Jersey. Staring. Sewer. That was the best spot. Just throw them in and let the East River take care of them. I had the wallet in my hand when I... What's that, Tommy? You look like you're in love. Officer, I didn't see you. Officer, is it? You're getting awful formal. Kind of jumpy, ain't you? No, no, no. Dan? Dan, it's just that you startled me, that's all. I startled you, did I? I was just standing there and you walked within two inches of me and didn't see me. It's you're in love. I know the symptoms you're in love. Love. Maybe you're right, Dan. That's a great feeling, lad. I'm dangerous. If you need someone to help you find your way back to the club, just tell me. In your condition, no telling where you're walking. I'll wait until his footsteps died out and then... Sewer. Sewer fast. And again. Gotta go to work. What's that? Now there's boys with something on their mind. Yeah. Gone down fifty-fifth looks like from here. Somebody's in for it. I gotta be getting... The customers are screaming for you. Come on. Come on. I wasn't afraid. I wasn't nervous. The cops would be talking to Dan now. If she made a slip, the two of us would be dead as dead as you could get. But I knew she wouldn't make any slips. She'd be too smart for him. We'd plan too well for him. It was all so simple. They couldn't make anything out of it. Crook slipped into her apartment, killed her husband. Her rich, fat, tired, helpless husband. And slugged her. That was all there was to it. Happens in New York. Happens a lot in New York. Could she help it if the whole thing made her a rich woman? Could she help it if a housebreaker freed her from her husband so she could marry someone else? Could she help it? Set up was so perfect. Fucker go wrong. So I sat and played Chopin. Strauss, Gershwin, Berlin. I sat and played the music of kind and great and gentlemen. And I tried to keep that thing on the floor out of my mind. Tried to keep that out of my mind. It used to come in here that, um, Anne Thomas. I don't think I... Oh, you remember the one? The brunette. The cute one.  Lives on 55th Street. Anne Thomas? Yeah, I remember. What? Uh, fussed down her house tonight. Somebody broke in and messed things up. Killed her husband. Fanged her around. Dan Ryan was telling me. It's too bad. Yeah. You're never safe in these big towns, are you? Never safe anywhere. You were safe if you were smart. You were safe if you had someone like Anne to think things out for you. You were safe if you had her to look forward to. To depend on you. I was safe. That was all that mattered really. I was safe. It was childish to worry about guys like Anne's husband. It was silly to get squeamish over a little blood. People died every minute in New York. They were useless and they were in the way and they died. It didn't matter whether it was murder or something else. People died. Sure, sure, that's... That's what Anne would have said. That's what Anne would have told me. And that was the right way to look at it. That was the right way. Light is bringing you Mr. Mickey Rooney in for love or murder. Tonight's production in Radio's outstanding theater of thrills. Suspends. Some bogato, trap tigers and Tasmania. Snared sparrows in Schenectady. Got them all stuffed and mounted, too. Say, that reminds me, let me show you my auto light stay full battery trophies. You mean you battled beasts with a battery? Why, sure. Take this camel, for instance. You know how I got him? I just told him about auto light stay full batteries extra liquid reserve above the plates. Needs water only three times a year in normal car use, I said. Well, sir, the dreary dromedary died of mortification. Remarkable. See this rabbit? Ran himself ragged the upstart trying to outstart an auto light stay full battery. Incredible. But what about that rather mossy, nullifant head? Oh, he died of old age, trying to outlive an auto light stay full battery.  This is based on recent tests conducted according to SAE life cycle standards. So see your auto light dealer, friends, for a power packed long life. Auto light stay full battery. Remember, you're always right with auto light. And now auto light brings back to our Hollywood soundstage our star Mickey Rooney with Lorraine Tuttlein for love or murder. A tale well calculated to keep you in suspense. The night went fast. People came, people went. Stood in front of the piano. They smiled and frowned. Once in a while, someone requested a number. Once in a while, someone applauded. It was a night like any other night. Hey, you got a play till Christmas, Tommy? Uh, what time is it? Almost three. You sure can tickle those keys, Tommy. You must have a beautiful soul. Well, what's the matter?  What? Well, I didn't mean to say anything wrong, Tommy. What did I say?   Talk to yourself all night, build yourself up, tell yourself things were all right and you were a great guy. Smart guy.   Made you feel like garbage.  Beautiful soul? My soul? So what?  I tried to sleep, got up, tried to read. Words danced in front of me like they'd been hung on rubber bands. Nerves, nerves, nerves. It's just nerves and I couldn't have talked to me out of them in a minute. I'm sleeper. Talked in? Yeah, yeah. All night, not a word. That's why I was jumpy. Suppose she was in trouble. Suppose something had gone wrong. Suppose somewhere we'd slipped. Operator, give me... No. If the wires were tapped, no, I wouldn't do the call. But if I went to the apartment the way I went last night, no one would see me. The police wouldn't expect that. That's the last thing they'd expect. I had to touch her. I needed her strength. I needed her to tell me things were all right. I had to see her. I had to see her. I could get in and out again. No one would be the wiser. Four in the morning the street was empty. The cellar was colder than it had been. The stairs were lighted. A thin red bulb at each landing. I didn't remember that. Finally, it's time. You shouldn't have come. Suppose they're watching. You think they're watching? I don't know. You know what I told you? Yeah, but... You know what we planned? You weren't to get in touch with me for days. For days. I know, but I had to see you, baby. No, no, stop it. You shouldn't have come. Just a moment. I love you so, honey. I had to be with you. No, no.  You're really a sweet boy, Tom. And you're not angry with me, honey. Did anyone see you? No, no. I'm sure of it. I was careful.  I feel strong again. I feel strong. I could do anything now. I was kind of mixed up tonight, but I'm all right now. I feel good now. Sweet boy. You're worried? Huh? Why? Didn't we plan? We didn't plan good enough to fool anybody. Why were you worried? I don't know. I don't know. Please believe me. I knew they would. Are you sure they did? Of course I'm sure. They were sympathetic and kindly. They were nice. But suppose they were only pretending. Sometimes you know they pretend that. Oh, when men are acting with me, I know it. Oh, baby. Commit your words. Ain't no reason in the world to think this is any different than a thousand other robberies. I told you that. I told you that from the beginning. Yeah. We'll be happy now, huh? Won't we be happy together? Now tell me that, baby. We'll be happy. Yeah, we'll be happy now, boy. Oh, I love you, baby. I love you. Aren't you a little sorry about the janitor? Janitor? What about the janitor? Oh. What about the janitor? See the man I met in the cellar? What about him? He's dead. You fractured his skull. No, no. I said you were a wild boy. Never meant that. I didn't know I hit him so hard. I didn't like you. He turned wild, boy. I didn't mean to kill a man. I'm sorry I told you. You're going to worry about him all night. Many, I didn't mean to kill him. Well, I'll be careful next time when I tell you. I wish I had a piano so you could play for me. I'd like to hear you play, honey. Be careful, baby. Of what? It's only the phone? Careful, honey. Yes. You've got the wrong number. Wrong number. Silly guy. What do you want, honey? I don't know. It's the wrong number. You want a drink, Tommy? No, no. You mind if I make one for myself? Go ahead, honey. You know you hit me awful hard last night. Look at the lump there. Look at it. I didn't want to hit you that hard. It doesn't look good. It doesn't look awful good. Oh, for pity's sake. Careful, baby. Yes. Oh, it's you again. You've got the wrong number. The wrong number. The way people annoy you. Annie. Yeah, Tommy. Annie. That janitor. Who? Who was he? Who was he? I don't know. Just a janitor, that's all. Did he have any kids? Two or three? Yeah, I think so. Why? You want to get some ice? I don't know why I wanted to know. I'm coming. I'll get it. I'll take it. I'll tell the guy. No, Tommy. I'll get it. No, Annie. That's you, Ann. Okay, this is the last time. I love that wrong number routine. Who you got up there? The young chick who rubbed your husband out for you? Huh?  Get rid of him as soon as you can. And I don't want him hanging around after we're married, you know. That's you, Ann. Why don't you say something? Why don't you... I sat down in the bed and I felt very calm and very organized. And I heard the drums start thumping in my brain. But delicate and far off. This time they had a sad, lost beat. What's it, Tommy? Was it that same silly guy? The janitor has three kids, huh? Who's going to feed him? Annie, who's going to love him? What's the matter with you, Tom? Oh, Tom, come here. What have you got on me anyway? What is there about you? Tom. You're bad for me, Ann. Awful bad for me. You could make all kinds of a sucker out of me. You could turn my stomach in 50 different directions a minute.  What? I don't like what you like. What? I don't like it. Why would I love you? Aw, you're tired.  Don't touch me! Tom, what... What is it, that phone call? That's a gag. That's someone playing a joke. I was a patsy, huh? All that horror and all that fright. I got black with two good men's blood helping you and that guy on the phone. Tom! Tom, put that gun away. Now listen, I'll explain. Tom, let me talk. You think I like to do those things, Ann? Tom, now listen. I killed two men to get you Ann. But I haven't got you. No, he's got you. The guy on the phone's got you. No, Tom! No, he hasn't! And by Ann, I did. I bought you. That's not fair. By rights, you should be mine. You're not mine, are you? No, Tom! No, it was always you. You're here. I'm getting him up. I was only kidding him. I was only spitting him along. It was always you, Tommy. I wasted all that blood on him. No, Tom, please! Wasted two guys and three kids. No! It's got to end, Ann. Tom, don't! It's got to end! It can't be love, can it? It couldn't have ever been love. Love doesn't hurt like this. Wasn't neat enough.  Quiet! I'm on a corridor the night of December 10th, and I shall die. It's not important. They've let me play the piano here. I've even composed some stuff, short pieces. I always wanted to compose, but I never had the time for it. Maybe someday somebody important will play my stuff. Maybe someday you'll hear some of it. Funny things have happened. There are even people who get away with murder. Hey, tell me. I think a lot about Ann. Poor Ann. She should have picked someone older than me. Someone solid and stable and wise. Someone with a stronger stomach. Ann, not a musician. Ann, not a musician. Suspense presented by AutoLite, tonight's star, Mickey Rooney with Lorraine Tuttle. I like your trophies, Harold. You like your AutoLite's staple battery even more, Remingchester. It's just one of more than 400 products made by AutoLite for cars, trucks, planes and boats in 28 plants coast to coast. These include complete electrical systems for many makes of America's finest cars, batteries, spark plugs, generators, coils, distributors, starting motors and AutoLite bullseye headlights. All engineered to fit together perfectly, work together perfectly, because they're a perfect team. So don't accept electrical parts supposed to be as good. Demand and get AutoLite, original factory parts at your neighborhood service station, car dealer, garage or repair shop. Remember, you're always right with AutoLite. Next Thursday for Suspense, Lana Turner will be our star. The play is called The Flame Blue Glove and it is, as we say, a tale well calculated to keep you in. Suspense. Tonight's suspense play was produced and edited by William Spear and directed by Norman MacDonald. Music for Suspense is composed by Lucian Morrowake and conducted by Lud Bluskin. The second prelude by George Gershwin was used as thematic material. Our Love or Murder is an original radio play by John Shaw. Mickey Rooney appeared by arrangement with Metro Volbán Mayer, producers of Battlegrounds, starring Van Johnson, John Hodiac, Ricardo Montalbán and George Murphy. In the coming weeks, you will hear such stars as Eddie Cantor, Ida Lupino and Daddy Kay. Don't forget, next Thursday, same time, AutoLite will present Suspense, starring Lana Turner. You can buy AutoLite's stateful batteries, AutoLite resistor or regular spark plugs, AutoLite electrical parts at your neighborhood AutoLite dealers. Switch to AutoLite. Good night. Join the fight against tuberculosis through your purchase of Christmas seals in 1948. There were fewer deaths from TB than ever before. The 1949 national tuberculosis Christmas seal sale is on now. Do your part. Buy Christmas seals. This is CBS, the Columbia Broadcasting System.