Alexis watched run veering bear grills. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and she'll she sent me a message and she said what did you make him eat I? Sent the message back that said what do you think? What did she say and she said? Maggots because that's what she selected and I wrote in all caps back with exclamation points. No You should know us better testicles But did she tell you he didn't actually eat the maggot? She didn't tell me what happened, but she did say it's interactive I'm gonna go back and watch it again and choose the other selections and see what happens apparently He doesn't eat the maggot. Oh in that sequence parents. That's somebody said Oh, I chose maggots, and he didn't even eat it.  I know. Why wouldn't you eat the maggot? I don't eat a maggot with bear grills. I bear girls said eat it. I did it no matter what it is What about his ass? Yep?  It's a Corbin. I'm Bear grills And you false any Instagram Twitter for juicy content. Thanks. I'm patient for those two grounds Like button Sounded just like your mother today. We got a trailer This is called agent it's a teaser agent Tina. No just agent agent Tina. No the anti-heroes forked the bad guys It's finally here No, really fast. They got the film written in it's a hot strike. Well, it's hot Vick from ahead of come on It has Mamouti and Mamouti will make a great auntie great and a kill Accomany And I think it's a give them a minute. I think it's a big action film a spy thriller perhaps maybe I'll uh bond James Don mission impossible Ethan Hunt dawned James dawned Don James dawn. I like it. The next bond is gonna be a woman who's notorious Mr. Maru He's on credit He's that's not has already been written Now it's time for a wild ride He enjoys killing May is he did not eat that day He's just your mother, right? Sounds like it Nice, I like the cut of the trailer. I did too. I wanted more And Johnny does he say mother don't hear tell me what he says Okay, I Just wanted to make sure that you sure did That's our new intro My place It's just followed by Magambo Love that he was having such a delightful time killing No, yeah, it seemed very almost like almost kind of like Joker as very silly psychopath kind of a mix of Heath Ledger's Joker. Yeah, and and and Crispin Glover's whatever his character isn't Charlie's Angels So, yeah, if this is just a crazy dumb Spy thriller action romp. I'm in yeah. Yeah There was obviously some stuff in there that There was like cheesy spy line. Don had a lot of those. Oh, yeah, that's what I mean It's like dawn whenever he blows them up boom And when he's on the phone, he's always cool comp Don't get helicopters anywhere near dawn He's cool, comma collected and then PTSD or something for him with the helicopters doesn't like helicopters does not like him, but if this is that but I'm in the I think I think I've said it 10 times now this year that the VFX in Indian films is looking absolutely fantastic Yep, and it's They're getting to the point though where like you if you see bad you kind of have to call it out because everything else is Yeah, so good. It's true like when we first started reacting to stuff we could see the the bad all the time and and many of you stupid babies were saying guys Please you need to recognize where India is and the scope of the history of CGI and at the time It's not a it really wasn't a fair comparison and now so we spent quite a few films giving them a grain of salt with the CGI and going okay, we know what we're gonna get and then Not anymore. Yeah, everything now is at the same level as everybody else Yeah, I mean especially if you're doing a big action film. Yep, you just don't do it I guess if you if you don't well and in many respects like we keep saying it But it needs to be said when we watched those guys that that we're talking about our are who work in Visual effects and special effects. They were talking about how impressed they were with for example the train sequence where they used Real effect and they used CGI for the train and the fire and everything so yeah, yeah How you doing over there good great? Got the attention span of a flea I Saw this tick-tock Let's hit it. I Don't know what HD is but my doctor says I have 80 of them. Wow. I can't take it. It was a tick-tock It was hilarious. That's funny But yeah, looks good Looked like it could be a lot of fun good action. Yeah, or it could be terrible In terms of because yeah, it could be really bad if everything's like ridiculously Stupid and you just have cool-looking shots. Yeah, obviously it's not gonna work It's not saying that's this is going to be that no, but obviously they could very well happy It definitely if you're going that route of being so eccentric. Yes certain aspects this trailer has to work This trailer makes you think it's either going to be gloriously bad or genuinely bad What?   I bet I enjoyed that a lot Yeah, I bet you're gonna see that in many places anyways Let us know what you thought about the trailer what should be our next film what we should watch and review is down Below


recorded this key workshop a couple of days ago. Enjoy taking part in it, although I won't be able to be live together with you and facilitate it. I hope you had a nice day yesterday in the student voices symposium's first day. I looked at the program and it seemed to include a lot of interesting sessions regarding this very important and broader topic. So this key workshop I've named or me and my colleague Ulrike Schnas and me have named Building Alliances for Democratic Sustainable Futures. And the idea behind this workshop is to see whether it's possible to build an alliance or a closer collaboration between student voices work, active student participation work, and student engagement work that is done in higher education and the work that is done in the field of democratic education and education for sustainable development. I will be the one holding this workshop or presenting this workshop my colleague Dr Ulrike Schnas she's been involved in writing the abstract for this and also she has brought in a lot of interesting reflections and knowledge to this material but unfortunately she couldn't record this together with me. So you will only have me for this time and I hope it will be great. Okay so a little thing or some things about me just to give you a bit of a background of me myself and I. I'm currently working at the unit for academic teaching and learning at Uppsala University in Sweden. Uppsala is the fourth biggest town in Sweden or fourth biggest city in Sweden and it's a student town many many would say. I think the student population in Uppsala is about one-fifth of the whole population. So that's quite a big number so during summers when all the students are away or visiting their families or friends and so on on holidays the the city is quite empty and very calm. Apart from working at the unit for academic teaching with the field of active student participation which is also why I participate in this symposium. I also study a master's degree in ESD or education for sustainable development so I'm really interested in pedagogies for sustainable development for democratic education and so on. So that is also some background to why I've recently come to think that active student participation and this these practices in these fields of work could really benefit from joining forces together in higher education. Okay so that was a little bit about me and just wanted to also start off with some some pictures that I really like. So the first picture to the left here is a picture of Uppsala in in the autumn and it almost looks like this in Sweden and in Uppsala at the moment. The trees are turning orange and yellow and this is the little little river that runs through the city of Uppsala. So this is a little little picture for you to just to sit to to get you understand or to just for you to see where I'm situated at the moment when I'm recording this also and the picture to the right here is a picture of me with the same background as you see the the the lemons the wallpaper lemons and my and my child Ruben who was born in October 2021. So at the moment I'm on parental leave with him and we're enjoying nature together playing and he's he's soon about to walk I think also so it's a really fun and intensive period at the moment. So some personal things for you to get to know me a little bit better and I will hopefully get to know you a little bit better when I read your discussions and possible questions that appear after this key workshop. So what will happen today during this key workshop is that first I will briefly go through a little bit of the context and history of active student participation at Uppsala University. The work that has been done here and where it originated from and so on and how active student participate participation is defined in the Uppsala setting and this is important an important background to give in in order to also move on to the next topic that will be part of the workshop and that is that ties into the to the title of the workshop as well very much and so active student participation's potential role in relation to societal sustainable and democratic development and potential alliance building between these theories and practices and then we will have an interactive interactive finale I think and the reason why I have structured the workshop in this way is because I think it's easier if you first since this is not done live together with you it's really hard to have like live discussions and so on me facilitating them and you engaging in a you know in a workshoppy way during the presentation so I think it was easier actually to to have the workshop things moved to the end so you will get time for that in the end to work with that together and then I will try to and get back to you in some form probably in a written format and I will I will go go in and check your discussions probably in the morning after you've had them to see what has come up and if there are any questions regarding the presentation and and what you have thought about the content of this key workshop and also the topic of the key workshop if it's possible to build a kind of alliance between student voices work active student participation work and education for sustainable development and how these can benefit each other so I'm really looking forward to to the morning of the of the 29th of September it will be for me when I go through the padlets that you will be working in okay so this is what we will do today and just to give you some foundations of the of the workshop first and there are different foundations to to it first there is the theme of this year's symposium we're on the student voices australian website it says that the symposium bring together staff and students from australian higher education institutions to examine the positionality and roles of students as essential partners in decision-making and governance now and into the future so if we look then at positionality and roles part of this key workshop will touch upon the question of what positions and roles are possible for students in higher education in higher education and and I will go through some of the positions and roles that students have had in the Uppsala context so those are roles that are possible as an example and also important for this symposium's theme is decision-making and governance and I look at decision-making and governance when it comes to student voices as being both the way students can influence and be part of decision-making and the way the universities and higher education institutions are run in in the universities and in the higher education contexts themselves but this is also about students roles as citizens I believe if we extend this further and look at apart from being involved in decision-making and governance at the university what could be students roles as as citizens and what is it important that you perhaps practice in in higher education to be able to seriously take on the role as a citizen in a democratic society or in other societies as well of course and when it comes to the now and into the future of the symposium's theme I think of this as what students do during their education at university or other higher education institutions and how this can contribute to the betterment of higher education and the improvement of the way education is run but also into the future so the what students bring from from higher education into their future lives then as citizens or as important contributors to sustainable development and the tackling of sustainable development issues and also in developing democracies using different capacities that they develop in higher education in development of democracy later on also what has inspired this this keynote presentation is our issues that are affecting democracy and foundational to to democracy and the democratic debate in in many countries at the moment so the role of higher education in relation to populism and anti-immigrant discourses Sweden recently had the election for the parliament and an anti-immigrant party called the swedish democrats they gained 20% of the votes from swedes you see here the the leader of the party Jimmy Åkesson and this is a commercial or an ad that they have used in the campaign before the election it says Sweden should be good and this is a spin-off of Donald Trump's campaign that he used make america great again so swedish should be good again is translated is the english translation of that is Sweden has to become better again and then the guardian has written about the swedish election and they write that in the wake of the financial crash and the wave of refugees in the mid 2010 this strategy of combining anti-immigrant sentiment with welfare nativism is allowing the radical right to make headway through europe so the guardian writes that progressive politicians and parties need to find a better and more creative response than that of pale imitation of these parties so progressive politicians and the parties they have to be more creative when it comes to responding to these discourses that have appeared in many many countries and we could also ask the questions then what is the role of higher education here what is the role of education in relation to populism and anti-immigrant discourses how should education be run in order to to respond to these discourses is transmission based pedagogy or more science-based pedagogy the answer to this some say that this is the answer to populist forces and anti-immigrant discourses because this is not this is just you know connected to fake news this is not real science we have to have more real science science debates and education should be based on on science but is this what will help us in combating or try to yeah to do something about these discourses or to to give another response how can responsibility for and engagement with these issues be fostered among students so this could also be seen as a foundation to why to why this key workshop has been developed and a foundation to to the discussion on how active student participation and democratic education and ESD education could could could that be an answer to populism and anti-immigrant discourses for example the third foundation I would call the world's wickedness so many say that the world is becoming increasingly you know entangled we we live in a global world with global flows of of money of goods of of people also and and many of the big societal issues today that is up to citizens politicians and society at large and also universities to solve our wicked issues and I you've probably heard of wicked issues it's been quite it's a term that has been quite heavily used the last the last years but it refers to problems that are really complex and that there are no real or clear solutions to these problems and solutions that you that you that you try to use and then apply to the problems might generate new problems and so on so scholars are asking and are arguing for for a change in the way pedagogy and higher education is is run and also what the learning objectives in different courses in higher education should be to prepare students to to during their time in higher education and also after higher education deal with these wicked issues can we use the same pedagogical methods that we've that we're familiar with and have used traditionally or is it something else that is needed okay so that was that was some things on the foundations of this workshop just to for you to see where I'm coming from how my thinking has developed around this workshop and where it stems from basically so I think it's important for you to get that context and to get that background in order for you to to yeah hopefully better understand why I say the things I say or discuss these things in the way I do so active student participation in Uppsala a short history about that work first so the ASP work at Uppsala University it grew out of a center that's called CMOS it's the Center for Environment and Development Studies at Uppsala University and that center has a long or not a long history but it started in 1992 with a course that was named Männichan and Männichan och naturen man and nature translated into English and it was it was on upon the initiative of students that this course was started because these students that started this course they they thought that their education wasn't dealing enough with the pressing issues of society at that time so it didn't include knowledge and the development of skills to to deal with wicked issues one could say so they thought that their education was lacking quite a bit so they they talked to the vice chancellor of Uppsala University and also some employees of the university that they trusted and asked how the university could improve on this matter and then the answer from the university was and this doesn't happen very often so it's fun to to describe this history was that why don't you start with developing this course these courses yourselves it seems like you have have knowledge about it you see what is missing so it seems like you could be really great course creators here and so they they did they started developing the first course at CMOS and since that time the center has developed into giving many more courses they are giving I think at least 15 plus courses as an amount and then for example as you can see here to the to the right in the bottom there's one course called sustainable economic futures nature equity and community and another course that's called critical perspectives on sustainable development in Sweden and what is really I think quite original to these courses is that the the center is still to a high degree influenced and run by students so students are are hired at the center to develop these courses together with professors and PhD students and higher other staff at CMOS in course work groups so they develop these courses together and the students have an unusual amount of influence over these courses apart from that so as you could say that as the ASP work at Uppsala University really has a foundation in this work it grew out of this work but Uppsala also has a long history of student voice work through unions and different student associations and so on it's a very old university it was founded in 1477 and as I said in the beginning one fifth of the population of the city are students so it's really a student town really vibrating of students one could say and so that is also important for the history of active student participation I think that there really has been a long history of work through unions and associations and student voice work basically the ASP project that grew out of this was funded by the the vice chancellor of Uppsala University also so that's important to to mention how is then ASP defined at Uppsala University so ASP is defined as students that support and power and challenge each other's learning as well as students as co-creators in the planning implementation and evaluation of higher education so it's one could say that active student participation at Uppsala University is both seen as how students work together in peer-to-peer learning activities but also how students are co-creators together with their peers but also with teachers in developing courses at the at the university through all the phases of course planning so it rests on two legs one could say this is another way of defining active student participation trying to visualize it a little bit and one could say that ASP belongs to the broader field of student engagement students being engaged in higher education in different ways but then it differs a bit from what one could call activating learning methods which is more about different methods that teachers have prepared for classes in order to activate students during their courses and student representation that is more about perhaps student voice work i'm not really sure how you define it in the australian context but in the swedish context student voice work would be more that students are giving feedback in different ways to materials or two courses after they have been and after they have been given or so they are not really part of the process of creating them they are not essential partners in the creation of the courses but more being represented in different in different groups at the university on different levels that then work with different questions regarding courses or complaints and so on so it's more about a representative function i would say than a creative or co-creation function because this is what active student participation is i would argue active student participation is more about the the roles the different roles that students that we can imagine for students in higher education different roles that are possible for students in higher education is it only roles that are roles that that are tied to taking in taking in information and digesting information that is given from from teachers and then do the examination and so on or is it is it also possible to see whether students can be included in in in other aspects of higher education work that is done and then in the work at Uppsala University on active student participation we found that it both has potential but it's also already taking place within courses within programs and in an interdisciplinary manner also outside scheduled class time so extracurricular activities and also in in the planning evaluation and examination of of higher education so in the work on active student participation it was both mapped what activities that are that are done at the moment and also and and also it was imagined what could be done future wise when it comes to this area i realized that you will probably see if i took a little pause during the recording of the presentation because there might be a slight difference in the angle of the camera or so on but i'm sure you're fine with that i just needed to take a a glass of water and and a little break so that is fine of course okay so um what i wanted to um to continue with is a great quote by Dunn and Sanstra that have been quite actively researching student engagement because they uh i know the quote is quite long but they really capture in this quote i think what uh we at Uppsala University regard as active student participation work because they write that there's a subtle but extremely important difference between an institution that listens to students and responds accordingly and an institution that gives students the opportunity to explore areas that they believe to be significant to recommend solutions and to bring about the required changes there's a subtle but extremely important difference here they say and i think that not all institutions uh see that difference or regard that as an important difference uh continuously then the concept of listening to the student voice implicitly if not deliberately supports the perspective of students as consumer whereas students as change agents explicitly supports a view of the student as active collaborator and co-producer with the potential of transformation so i won't say anything more about this quote but really captures uh the very important difference that is that exists between listening and taking in feedback from students through course evaluation or such methods and to really actively support students to to um uh to um active collaborate actively collaborating with uh the development of courses for example okay so that was a little bit of a background to the active student participation work at Uppsala University and the way we define it a little bit on how the work was done this could be read about more extensively if one is interested in in it in the active student participation companion that is where the figures come from there that i showed you earlier and also it's listed in the references at the end of the presentation so colleagues of mine wrote that book and please have a look at it if you're if you're interested in this further so now the idea is that um i will try to um discuss this what i've been naming alliance building between um practices and theories of education for sustainable development and democratic education and active student participation and um how they can benefit benefiting from um uh joining forces to build more sustainable and democratic futures so how this can potentially influence society in these directions this is uh a topic that i've been thinking about quite a lot but i haven't really put it into a presentation or into text earlier before this symposium so bear with me these are these are just um um preliminary thoughts and i'm really interested in starting a conversation together with you on this topic that is really important um so this is me uh thinking out loud this would be a quote from from from me then thinking out loud and with the active student participation approach student develop competencies knowledge and learn new perspectives that are equally important for building sustainable democratic societies as they are for studying in a higher education context so we see that there are great benefits um working in this way for students in their studies in higher education they develop different skills that are important for being a student and studying but these skills are also important uh i would argue them for building democratic societies and more sustainable democratic societies these skills many ways go in many ways go hand in hand and uh and are equally equally important for both of these strands of theories and practices hmm okay so thus there's a great potential in stronger collaboration between the academic field and practice of democratic education and education for sustainable development with that of active student participation um and this collaboration i haven't really seen that much of in literature or in practices it might exist but it haven't really been um explicitly described or uh or researched that much so that's why i'm interested that's why i'm particularly interested in in this i would say okay so why can these two um strands then that are that are existing at the moment in quite separate silos doing their own practices and work what are the commonalities between them um so active student participation um research says it leads to more motivation among students it promotes deep oriented learning it promotes active learning and responsibility over studying it uh ties into uh often it's often used during problem solving and application of knowledge so using these practices are particularly good and beneficial when you're working with these with these types of um content in courses it improves study skills such as critical thinking information search and argumentation and it improves into personal skills such as empathy and respect and these are just some things that research have found um on these types of practices and also uh what practitioners and students have said that um that this way of working has um has led to and um if we looked at and on some aspects of democratic education and ESD um there has been a lot of discussion on what competencies uh do we do we want to see students develop in order to tackle sustainability issues and here um researchers have been defining competencies such as normative competence interpersonal competence strategic competence anticipatory and system thinking and i think that you can already see for yourselves how this can connect to active student participation and already in 1916 uh the quite famous theorist and philosopher John Dewey that has been really influential um when it comes to the field of democratic education and he said that student participation is really important in the classroom students won't learn that much if they're not participating in different ways we have to um the teacher have to structure structure the content and structure the course more attached to the experiences of students going into the experiences of students so student participation in and outside the classroom is really important and these two also connect to each other what happens in the classroom has an effect on societal life and democratic societal life we also have um critical theory is quite an important um foundation of both democratic education but maybe most prominently education for sustainable development uh one famous author to mention there paula freire as probably many of you know of wrote the pedagogy of the oppressed in the 1970s about challenging power inequalities increasing literacy and he was also very much against the banking idea of education and i would argue that active student participation practices have also grown grown out of a critique against the banking idea of education transmissive based pedagogy and so on um some swedish scholars of education for sustainable development have discussed the democratic dimension of ec so environment and sustainability education they have combined these two and and they argue that in that type of educational practices students develop into well-informed members of society and actively participating in education and in society so that is the whole idea with that type of education the whole purpose one could say then uh educational scholar arjen ballz discusses post normal science as a concept and where they argue that science in the future and also education in the future has to be more about managing of different societal problems rather than controlling different societal problems that has been the traditional way of approaching problems let's try to control these problems in different ways but he argues that all of these problems many problems of today are really complex and especially environmental and sustainability problems so these has to be managed instead of controlled and this managing it really requires participation and deliberation of various sorts of people and also in the classroom when you work with these type of issues um and lastly another um um some other terms that is mentioned in the work by ballz is the emancipatory approach to education versus the instrumental approach to education so in the emancipatory approach to education teachers are trying to strengthen in capacities of students whereas in an instrumental approach it's more about influencing students in a predetermined way there is an idea that this is what students should learn so this is that that is why we structure education the way we do we predetermine what what students should learn for example we decide that this is the best sustainability behavior and we have to influence students ways of thinking norms values and help them learn the knowledges for the best best way of being sustainable for example or contributing to more sustainable society but he argues for the emancipatory approach to education which is more about strengthening different capacities because sustainability problems are as we said earlier really complex they are wicked they are ever-changing we don't what is the sustainability problem of today might not be a problem of of tomorrow or at least the problem has changed a lot so we can't approach it in the same way so if we then have a too much of an instrumental approach to to uh to content and to education this won't help students we have to develop these more generic or generic skills or capabilities that uh that students can can can use and apply on all sorts of problems and where they are also prepared to to adapt because capacities you can use in on on on different problems and you also become more adaptable through that type of through that type of education or when you when you're educated in that way so as we can see um there are a lot of commonalities between these different fields but I think that things that we've learned through researching asp through practicing asp could really be beneficial for contributing to solving big societal global problems of today these are skills that are not only super important being a student at university they are also important in your life as a citizens which you a citizen which you live simultaneously of course as you as you are also studying or as you have the role of a student you have these two roles simultaneously and I think we have to more explicitly argue for the benefit of these these approaches this approach and in this these skills for being a competent uh contributor in society after education however it's not that uh that easy because it can also be argued to be a bit uh maybe steering students or be a bit uh normative and not not everyone in in higher education uh or in society as at large is interested in um in developing in letting students develop skills that can contribute to the solving of of these types of problems but I believe it's important so that is the stand that I take and I I look forward to hear what you what you think about this when we have the interactive finale okay lastly then I just want to touch upon some challenges that is connected to the work of active student participation and potentially also the work of building alliances between these fields that I've been talking about sorry for the the coughing um and I've already talked a little bit too much so I will just briefly go through these challenges and um if you have any question about them if you want me to clarify them or so on um you can contact me afterwards or you could also add questions to the padlet that we will be using towards the end of this workshop so first a challenge is the instrumental instrumentalization of higher education that um higher education is used as uh as something to lead towards something it's a specific uh you get a specific um um a title uh after studying in higher education for example um and doing ASP work doesn't really fit with this instrumentalization of of higher education um it's quite time-consuming to work in this way I'm sure you've all experienced it already in your own words how does active student participation fit with the trends of quality measurements and quality assurance in higher education that are increasingly important aspects of higher education and they are also really promoted and a question related to that is maybe what is quality according to students we also have as always when people work together we have the the issue or the fact that there's a power present so how is power distributed in in these different active student participation settings which roles are different people giving given how do teachers relate to to potential new roles that they will be approaching or given when working like this and how does the institutionalized culture how can we reshape that culture is it possible to do it even we also have the aspect of engagement from the student side or students uh the larger student group really interested in in working in this way is this what they want from their education do they want to be this active uh uh responsibility taking responsibility and um or what do they want from their education what is their goal and purpose with education there's also the risk that um universities teachers higher education is blindly adapting and changing after student critique because of financial reasons and expectations on throughput that is increasingly put on universities from the governmental side and that is a challenge and related to the question of power of course who participate and is engaged in these activities and how can these activities be broadened so they appeal to the larger student group and not only the good students that some authors have argued that they that they do currently okay so I will just introduce this interactive finale for you and then you will go on doing it together yourselves um so first we have a discussion debate dialogue it depends on how you approach it five to eight minutes the idea is you that you're discussing groups how can active student participation contribute to the development of sustainable democratic societies or should it even add it to padlet and to start this important conversation the second thing that you do together then is that you're trying out a real active student participation exercise called the missing perspective you do this for five minutes or as much time as you as you have here you reflect individually what was missing what was the missing perspective in this key workshop that wasn't touched upon think of theories challenges perspectives but also maybe the delivery of of this workshop I realized that it's really hard to to make a workshop as a recorded presentation or as a record in a recorded format so I'd really like to have your input on that how one can make it better because I realize now that this isn't really that workshoppy maybe so how can one do workshops recorded workshops in a good way add it to padlet and Loisa will happily hear about it for continuous improvement of her workshop skills okay thank you very much for listening and participating in this and I hope you have a nice rest of the symposium and see you on padlet tomorrow morning maybe or I would be there at least answering and reading some of your thoughts and comments thank you very much and have a great rest of the day


Welcome. Good evening for all of you who are joining us tonight. I'm just gonna check in and make sure we are showing up on your page. And then I will welcome Dr. Pruzmack. Okay, we are on Dr. Pruzmack. Awesome. Well, hey everybody. If you're joining us live tonight, just a reminder to throw in your comments in the section there. I will try to look at multiple screens and get to your questions and comments. We have an incredible treat for you tonight because I've got one of my good friends, colleagues, and just someone I respect so so greatly in the world of functional medicine and a neurosurgeon. I'll give a brief intro in a minute, but Dr. Pruzmack is a great guy and I want to just talk on a personal level briefly first. This guy has led the Denver Broncos with his neurosurgery skills. He's created Resilience Code, this amazing center in Denver. And again, I'll tell you a more formal violin just a second. But this guy, what I love about him is he has the inquisitive mind of a scientist, but he's got the heart of a giant as far as how he cares for his patients. And we clicked right away when we met a couple years ago, Dr. Pruzmack. And just what we love is we love to really dive deep into the mysteries. And when we get talking, it's fun. It's a lot of fun. I want to just give a formal introduction real quick and then we will jump right in. Chad is an East, Dr. Pruzmack is an East Coast native. He obtained his bachelor's in biophysics at Harvard University and his medical doctor degree in neuroscience from Columbia University. He went on to do his neurosurgical residency and fellowship at the University of Miami and is now partner at Rocky Mountain Spine Clinic in Denver. He has a lifelong passion for sports. He was captain of the La Crosse team at Harvard and is currently neurological consultant for the Denver Broncos and the US Olympic team. That passionate education came together when he opened Resilience Code in 2017. I will be sure and link Resilience Code in the comment section so you guys can check this out. Chad, tell us just a little bit about, first of all, welcome. Good to see you again. Yeah, you too. And gosh, we have had such a fun time talking about patients and trying to solve medical mysteries. And now we've got the virus. And I know you and I are both like on the front lines, really trying to figure out not only what's happening to our patients, but how do we get us out of this epidemic, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks, Jill. That was such a sweet introduction. The same feelings towards you. Just so everyone is aware, Jill's basically taught me everything I know about functional medicine and has been one of the best academicians and leaders and friends.  So thank you for being here. It's an honor. I remember, I'll just tell you a funny story. I remember like, you know, I'm going along 2017, my patients and that and emails and stuff. And I get there and I'm good looking through my emails. I'm like, Dr. Prasmak and I get a lot of inquiries, physicians ask some questions about this and that or whatever. And I'm like, reading through blah, blah, blah, blah. Neurosurgeon for the Denver Broncos did it. I'm like, who's this? It was awesome to meet you. And then I think we talked by phone a few a week or so later and just like, I love your heart because there's not a lot of neurosurgeons I know that have the kind of heart that you have. And you know, that comes across because it's the passion and the purpose that drives our inquisitive minds as far as finding the answers, because we care about the patients, right?  And every person, every case has a story. And the thing about a combination of functional medicine and surgery is you get to bridge the story is the patient's health, their psychology, what's playing a role in their outcomes.  And even today's story with the COVID 19. Yeah, you're so right.  We learn in medical school how to get a good history and it's all story. But don't you find even more now after we've been several decades in practice, like listening to the story is everything like that's the foundation I find almost all the clues that I need. Don't you find that so I mean, yes, we love the science, we love the labs tonight, we're going to talk about some cutting edge stuff that you guys are doing at resilience code. But don't you really think it all comes back to listening to the patient? It's all that first interview and understanding the the triggers, their background, really forming looking for patterns and bridging them together. So you can not only understand it yourself, but you can explain it back because it makes sense. And it kind of has to make sense, right? Because we're here and act for a reason. And the biology behind us gives us those reasons. And there's just different layers to it.   And everyone got it. So thanks to you, another young man is is going to be well soon. So you are so kind. You know, I want to hear your story, Dr. Bresmeck. Like first of all, I want to go way back as how you went to medicine. And then I want to know how a neurosurgeon got into functional medicine. Yeah. Yeah, I just guess I don't like school enough. So at the end of the day, I, you know, I was a lacrosse player. After I went to Harvard, I got such a kick out of the people there. I studied biophysics. And I realized that the subject matter was unique. And I loved it. But the sort of the, the community around that just wasn't who I was, I was a little more social than wanting to go forth with a career in biophysics or applied to medical school, fortunately accepted me. I got into Columbia. And it was just such a great experience. My preceptor there was Dr. Mehmet Oz. And he was such a stud that I looked up to this guy, brilliant ex Harvard guy, good person, holistic. And he was a cardiothoracic surgeon. And I just remember seeing him like, he would bound from place to place instead of walk because he needed exercise in between cases. And so I was so enamored with him that I went on to sort of pursue a career in cardiothoracic surgery. Then in my fourth year, we had a neurosurgery rotation. And I remember distinctly going in and the music was awesome. They're playing Metallica. The guys were all excited. And they were like, Hey, come on in. Come on in. And you know, you scrub in. I was like, Sure, scrubbed in. And then they give me the drill. And they say, Okay, drill here and don't miss. And so I took this training to him. And I drilled and it went through and I sat there and I got tachycardic. I started sweating and I passed out.  And you're like, what do you mean? They're like, it's supposed to do that.  That was my induction into their weird world. And I was like, I like these guys. So I then, you know, went to neurosurgery and I was I was it was the right thing. The academics of the brain, the intensity, brain spine, pediatrics, you got to see a lot. And the one thing that I remember that tails into you, your back, your education, your educating me and where I am now is we ran the ICU by ourselves. So our attending doctor heroes wouldn't let us do any consults. So we had to intubate put in swans, we take care of everything. And after a seven year program of doing that, you really are a well trained marine. And you just have such a broad, vast knowledge of traditional medicine and then neurosurgery. So going out into the world, I think we were really well prepared. And you know, where I am today, I just realized that you have to fill in the blanks outside of your surgical prowess, that we all can't be so specialized that we are ignorant or blind to the big picture. And if you miss the salient, juicy parts of life and science, you really end up in a more ignorant place than you started out. So the flavor with which functional medicine, how you approach people and problems. That's why I am here today. And why I'm happy to help. I love that. And I want to know, like, what was your first intro to functional medicine? Or how did you kind of get what was the doorway into functional medicine for you? It was internet, seeing your website. And then putting together like this makes sense. All this stuff I was trying to do with supplements and nutrition, my biochemistry textbooks. I was like, we're already doing this. And I was like, it's functional medicine. I was like, I never heard of that. And so it was your website that then led me to the IFM website that led me to the A4M website. And then the Bredesen website. And then like, at the end of the day, I was like, overwhelmed. And I was just like, that's my next chore. And so you were there in the beginning, you're here now and the education and the experience I've had. We've treated, as you know, over 500 patients here. We specialize in neuro functional medicine, but do all functional medicine. And it's that it was it was you. And then it was, you know, the spirit of the game, I guess. Yeah. Gosh, I love that because even myself, 20 years ago, it's been a while now. But I remember the same thing. It's like, we know in our heart, the reason we go into medicine, it's to find root cause is to solve problems. Like I was bioengineering, like your biophysics. So I loved processes. I loved equations. I don't do basic arithmetic at all. But I love differential equations in quantity and calculators. But I love and I love what you and I do best is we take massive amounts of data and we synthesize and come to the conclusions of what is this data showing us and also just looking at the patterns, right? Like it's really pattern recognition. That's right. Interesting is like I saw two like I knew what I wanted to do in my heart. And when I first heard the word functional medicine, it was like, that's it. That's what I want to do. So we knew before we had a name for it, right? That's right. That's right. You almost have to be a patient yourself to get it.  And your process is pathologic disease and meds and interventions, which is not the whole story. It's just the tip of the iceberg. When it's you and as you know, you know, you were the one that diagnosed my Lyme disease, my mold toxicity, etc. You gave me a Y and told me my story. And that was the missing piece. And I think that when you start to be able to you gave me a Y and told me my story. And that was the new slide back. Yeah, there you go. Sorry. No, no worries. But like you're saying, having then had that experience, context with the the education, like you then have a way that you could, you could get out of any problem because you can figure it out once the functional medicine process is layered on top of the allopathic process. You can fill in the blanks, you know, right wrong or indifferent, like, and you're there to help the person in front of you, and you have so many more weapons. Yeah. Yeah, it's like our toolbox is bigger, Dr. Pruzman, because honestly, what we you and I love is that we use great science, great medicine. It's not like we throw away our allopathic training. I mean, that's the foundation. And I think that's what people come to both of us for is like, hopefully, we're still a great clinician at the core of some of the best clinicians, you know, bringing that there. But then what we do is hopefully have a bigger toolbox, more things to use, diving deeper.  There's no one drawing the line for health care or authentic health. So I think that functional medicine is the best vehicle to start to academically approach. How do I stay well versus how do I how do I get better from being ill? But then once you have the two, you'll connect them and then you'll say, oh, it's this toxin, which leads this inflammation, which derails my immune system, and I'm subsequently, I have cancer or heart disease. And then once this gets hot, as you know, randomized controlled trials will occur. But philosophically, it's impossible to do because it's almost like you're applying quantum physics to relativity. It's like, different domains, you can't the laws don't work. The clinician don't work as the laws of group, you know, medicine based off of, you know, randomized control trials, and randomized control trials, which we were taught in medical school gold standard of any process that we do any decision that we make, they're designed for drugs a versus B or a versus placebo. So when you have massive amounts of variables like someone with Lyme disease and a virus, and they have mold exposure, and then they have 20 supplements and three medications and IV, it's there's the complexity level does not lend itself to randomized controlled trials, because you cannot explain away the variables. So we have to go into another realm of science. And the other thing is the science is coming out, especially, we're going to get to the pandemic, I promise you, state just hanging in there, especially in the pandemic. I don't know about you, Chad, but data is coming out day by day, like a moment by moment, which means the science is actually right in real time. And most science as clinicians, we use it like 30 years ago, this stuff, this study came out has been proven over and over and over again. So we're going to use this drug. Well, Chad and I, what we're doing is we're kind of on the bleeding edge of what's coming out and we're watching to say, Hey, this looks number one, it's safe. Number two, there's decent data coming out that it's effective. And as the data builds, we may implement some of those cutting edge treatments before there's a huge randomized controlled trial because we don't want to wait for our patients 30 years. Any comments on that Chad, because I feel like we're pushing the envelope part of what gives us new opportunities and some of the stuff we're going to talk about tonight. Yeah, Jill, I mean, I think that the symbiosis is necessary for evidence based medicine, looking at drugs and making sure we have the textbook to understand the drugs. So I think that that provides the content for some, but the context is lost. And you go into war with the army, you have and every person you see is a war inside of them that you have to find peace. And so to do so, they're not going to wait for a randomized controlled trial, let alone understand it. Yeah. So I think it's this nice symbiosis between the sign hardcore scientific community, the disease care community, and there is the clinician and trying to piece it all together. At the end of the day, we just all want people better, as you know. And I think we're as necessary to the big cause through learning one by one as they are looking at, you know, maps of COVID-19 and trying to look at the spread. Yeah, they're all needed.  Well, thank you, Jill. So the resilience code is what we call an infinite health center. It's our best go at a center that tries to use data in large scales to find codes in clients sick, well or sports performance and to use those broad masses of data and apply both allopathic and functional medicine to them in order to achieve whatever goal that person comes in. What people lack, I believe is a clear road to performance goals. That could be I want to fix my Lyme disease. I want to score 5,000 touchdowns or I want to get rid of my anxiety. So once you understand what that goal is and set that, you then need a set of circumstances of the state of the person now, what I call situational awareness. So I want to know about the body, the blood and the brain as a pattern and then apply things to them that I can track and then see if we achieve those outcomes for that patient. And so say if that patient had Lyme disease and joint pain and one of her goals was to alleviate joint pain, did my interventions work, track it, measure it and at the end of the day, become successful. And if you apply this algorithm of test, treat, track, retest, we'll learn very quickly because you get so much out of the one on one relationship. A whole side of the coin that we don't talk about is someone who wants to recover quicker, who wants to make in the NFL and has similar things that hindered them back. You know, a lot of these football players have dysbiosis and treating their gut treats their soreness and treats their ability to recover as you know we've talked about. So this center is built for able to deploy the tests, the tracking and deliver the full cycle of care in one forty thousand square foot building. Being very humble, knowing that we'll make mistakes, but to track everything so we can share that information.  The resilience code which will have doctors, strength and conditioning coaches rehab, the full cycle of care that will learn more about how we stay well just as we do on how to stay alive in the hospital. Amazing. I love what you've accomplished and I kind of have seen through this you know the years just how where you're at. So let's talk about the virus like I would before we jump into testing we both believe that testing is going to be part of the way we get out of this and part of the way we kind of dig our way out and get society back to normal. And we'll talk about that what you're doing. I really want to hear about the stats and the data that you're producing there, but what's your thoughts in general about the situation we're in and that could pertain to you know the environment and toxicity and viral load or it could just pertain to you know how we're dealing with this and and any any thoughts. I just love to know your brain on code. I'd say the number one thing is we're all a team and that you can't let the small print get in the way of the big print which is we're here for each other we are all going to make mistakes we're all going to get anxious we're all going to act weird but at the end of the day if we work together and we put aside our egos we put aside our biases will be just fine the world has gone through much worse iterations of life and when I look around you know I'm not in the holocaust God you know God bless those who had to go through that this is not the Spanish flu and the HIV epidemic was scary in its own right at the end of the day we all get through it we adapt we become more resilient and I think we have to take that perspective so humans first two is you got to dissect this out on layers there's the front lines in the hospital all the resources needed to go there but there are sufferers on route to the hospital or out there maybe propagating and transmitting the virus which need to be dissected pattern tested and then treated accordingly and quickly so that we can get back to our own lives and get this society back running so when I look back it's armed the special forces that are in you know in the trenches but all of us strategists we should not rest until we know what way this is going to go and what we got to do is learn how this virus is in the non-lethal population love that Dr. Frosmack because what I'm seeing in my light little tiny you know sphere is just you know when we first started with the epidemic we were isolated I'm doing virtual consult I had a day of 10 patients and as I talked through those 10 three or four of them were what I call presumed COVID positive meaning they fit exactly the clinical picture and I gave them a presumptive diagnosis of it's very likely you have COVID-19 so if that was my 10 patients and three out of them were presumed positive that meant my very first day this was a month ago 30 percent of my patients had COVID and guess what none of them had testing which right now you and I understand this you and I understand the the availability of the PCR testing was slim in the beginning still slim and so from the beginning they were recommending high-risk patients over 60 heart disease diabetes or hospitalized so almost no one else even those with exposures even those with travel even those with symptoms that fit classically like in this diagnostic as I'm talking to people they fit classical diagnostic criteria right so what I realized right away is if 30 percent of the people of my population are testing positive the numbers that we're seeing don't even come close to reflecting the real numbers not even close and everybody knows this by now but I want people to understand like how the how bad the testing state is and how I'm guessing it's a hundred or more times the amount we're seeing in the numbers in the graphs and the charts of people that are being effective which means the death rates lower some of the stuff is different than we actually see so what's your thought yeah yeah Jill I think like I'm not an epidemiologist I'm not an infectious disease doctor I'm a smart guy you know trying to do good just like you are and the numbers in that domain matter on a political level it does I think affect us when you look at what is the contagion coefficient how do we understand how this thing spreads that number is is pertinent you know but if yes the question yeah I think that this is not as infectious as measles this is more infectious than influenza it's debatable whether it's I got a higher death rate but one of the things I think that people should look at is what why one person is getting sick and dying and not the other so going back to this again Jill I think about this and I love knowing the stats I love that Johns Hopkins map is phenomenal it's a great web page you know it's just like it you know in one step you can learn all about it but when you look down into the dirt and say wow we have two people living together one's positive and one's not and you know this person has a diarrheal illness and they test positive and this person you know is sick as heck and test negative that we have to again understand its behavior and my opinion is we don't know what this thing is and it will be something different than what we think it is once we figure it out and as you know this is more like a hypoxia malarial issue than it is a pneumonia and so I think we're going to be extremely interested in what these risk factors are because I think they will be different what we think they are now oh thanks for that and one thing Chad is referring to if you haven't seen the blog that came out today it's kind of controversial and again what I what I so I wrote that it's on my website just jill carnean.com go there look at the blog and it's all about this hypoxia hypothesis we won't spend a lot of time on that but it's interesting because I think that there it does present very differently from a classic ARDS it actually presents more like a pure hypoxia or even altitude sickness we're seeing the lung appearances and some of the criteria bit more with a different model doesn't mean it's that disease it just means it's acting not like a classical pneumonia and that just makes us think more about what else we can do to treat it so let's talk to you about what you're doing with testing because that's one of the big things I want to cover tonight I want to let people know number one what you're doing what you're finding out so far statistic wise tell me just a little bit about the testing that you're doing and some of the stuff that you're finding out sure I'd love to Jill first let me comment on on your email today post it is so Jill has a unbelievable newsletter and again it puts together these narratives which are digestible important and they're actually actionable and so the I'm reading the title back because I think everyone should should look for it it's called the emerging theories that may help us solve the COVID-19 puzzle I think that's the most eloquent I think I spoke too long because if I just said that you would have know what I what I meant but I think you capture everything just great in there and that's a very it's a it's a it's a well written article and I found it very educational so thank you for that so the testing piece so the problem is the test that's the reverse transcriptase PCR test that that test takes a picture and finds the actual virus critically important when we see someone pop a positive PCR and a Lyme's test you get all excited because you know that's it like this isn't smoking mirrors anymore so it really gives you the fact that the patient has it so in a highly symptomatic population and a positive test confirms the diagnosis the problem with that test that runs I think a 30 or 40 percent false negative rate so that you're going to miss almost one in three now if you're asymptomatic then the likelihood of it being a false negative is less and if you are symptomatic the likelihood of it being positive is higher I say that because it's looking at a very sick population where if you're going to bet your money they have it and the problem is that's where we get most of our information so it trickles down from there the problem is that test in our population is irrelevant potentially because the window with which one may be able to test this in the carrier may be such a short window it may be long it may represent transmissibility or not but if one in three are going to be negative and it depends upon whether you're telling someone you're infectious or not it's not a very helpful test for us out on this part of the war so we were in a study looking at a serology test so these serology tests they look at your the shadows of the virus in the body it looks at the body's response and why is that helpful well it's helpful because it gives a timeline a magnitude potentially and a pattern so because there are different antibodies and they all come out to play and fight at a different time one can then say that this is a part of the disease you know one is never been exposed is currently exposed and infectious and symptomatic has a past exposure so you kind of get a better idea and you can fit those clinical vignettes into discussing their whole background their story and then you see here's the pattern here's a pattern of young females who are IgM positive don't get symptomatic is that true yes or no and then we can do something with that we can give information safety and you know this is all under the understanding that we don't know not you nor me you know everything about the virus and have to be very cautious but you and I have to make decisions on what to tell people right now without that so you go into war with the army that you have and with this army this serology test I think will give us better context and hopefully lead to immune passports where we could say you've had the virus you're not infectious you can go back to work and you can donate blood to potentially save someone's life yeah gosh that's fantastic because it really gives an answer to part of the problem of when do we open up the economy again when do we let people go back to work what are you seeing with the results so far tell me more about what your patterns and interesting things that maybe you didn't expect to see I didn't know what to expect but let me just give you we've done 72 tests again this disclosure not FDA approved yet we are in a trial the sensitivity of this test has been about 95 percent specificity around 98 percent we've done 72 tests 57 have resulted but 20 positives and 37 negatives and in general what one specific responder that is very interesting there is in a responder to the early immunoglobulin so IgM that seems to be one asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic and less infectious we have people that you're we know that they had a social gathering where someone got sick they've been quarantined everyone's social distancing and they come in for the test never had a sniffle and they have all of the early responders the IgM positive so then you're like well it doesn't make any sense they don't have any symptoms why do they have anything and then you test them 10 days later and it's the same so we have about four patients who are asymptomatic early responders the IgMs and they're not false negatives or positives so that's a very interesting population people that have lived with some of these so the significant others have come up negative so it seems like here's an exposure IgM positive asymptomatic and even though they're with they're a significant other quarantined for long periods of time the partner doesn't get sick or develop antibodies interesting yeah oh it makes you wonder again like you said in the beginning the big question which I think will come out of this in the end as we look back we're going to have more clarity is what is the factor that keeps someone from getting this is it immune system is it toxic load is it blood type is it I mean I'm just throwing these random things out there but there's probably things we don't even know yet that affect and then if some of the hemoglobin stuff I wrote about is correct maybe it's thalassemia is protective or maybe it's hemochermatosis it's not protective or who knows right yeah yeah yeah I mean at the end of the day oxygen dynamics and the role of the red blood cell I think our paramount and oxidation reactions around it you know I think there's a gem in that biochemistry I mean you're the you're like the world professional and in this you know what what have you what are your thoughts on this Jill like I know I loved you talking about the actual items like vitamin C zinc what have you seen well you know Jed that's one reason I wrote the article is not to say that I have the answers because I'm simple functional medicine doc in Boulder Colorado I do love mysteries but I don't claim to know it all and even this article I was very careful to say we're just in the middle we're just theorizing that's in the title because we really don't know but what I wanted to say is if this is true do we do we reframe how we're looking at it and I want to get people thinking because so many times I remember medical school it's like you get a diagnosis in ICD-10 and you get a medication and you basically memorize this formulaic type of practice where you here's the diagnosis here's the med here's the diagnosis here's the med and we lose our ability to think outside the box and creatively and to really really problem solve and that's again what you and I love to do so I love being in that place and trying to problem solve with this virus and say what else are we missing what even in patients when I get to the point where they're not getting better my question to myself is always what else what else what else am I missing what else are they not telling me what else they don't even know what other pieces of the puzzle are we missing so same thing with this virus so bottom line is if some of this stuff with hypoxia relating to oxygenation of the blood is true and that maybe there's more than one mechanism happening with the virus especially what I mentioned with the iron oxidation so when these iron molecules are released from the heme and they lose their oxygen carrying capacity I equated it to like a raft that has been blown to smithereens and the irons like these guys that were on the raft that flew out into the water and those irons they're really disruptive they're kind of like you know the brawlers at the bar or whatever and they cause a lot of damage to the tissues and so when these iron get thrown off the raft they are floundering in the water and they're causing damage and so if that theory is true then things that neutralize reactive oxygen from the iron are going to work and what we do know to be true is the success of things like IV vitamin C or liposomal C to keep up the intracellular level of vitamin C is very effective I mean the studies in China showed this they're now using it in trials in New York City I don't know where else they're doing it but we're starting to see that there is some power to that and it's so safe so the better thing even about some of these things that I'm presenting is not only are they effective but they're quite safe other things that may have potential are nebulized glutathione because you get that antioxidant effect right to the tissues where you need it most this is basically like a breathing treatment like an asthmatic but instead of putting albuterol for breathing into the machine you put glutathione into the machine this is by prescription all of these things are not typically done by patients on their own but your doctor can prescribe those things and you can nebulize glutathione another thing I'm interested in I don't have the data but the data supports decreasing reactive oxygen pretty profoundly and the studies are many is inhaled hydrogen this is a machine I have one at the office some other doctors have them and I would love to in the near future be able to give treatments to patients where you just sit and with the nasal prong and you breathe in hydrogen ions into your lungs and the hydrogen mixes with reactive oxygen and creates water so it's this totally neutral byproduct and in the process you neutralize lots of this like these angry iron guys in your body ozone I'm not an expert on and I'm not talking IV ozone I'm talking just inhaled ozone in the nose but my naturopath and many other doctors out there are experts so I defer to you but there's also an idea that perhaps ozone inhaled could be part of the treatment as well so these are just a few things and then of course all of this stuff around zinc vitamin D and acetyl cysteine potentially Corsiton there's a lot of different nutrients that are antioxidant and have potential and I really really do believe these things are powerful and helping our patients especially the ones that are not on the verge those ones that are in the verge of respiratory failure I mean they need to go to the hospital they need the machines there's nothing wrong with that but what if the other 90% we could help keep them out of the hospital yeah Joe when I hear you speak your health is so important meaning that like staying healthy practicing those things that you're talking about I mean maybe it turns out that the people who are getting sick the young ones that are getting sick are unhealthy on the inside they don't have vitamin C deficiencies or hemochromatosis which is the high iron levels or they have a gene which their oxidative stress is disproportionate like an SOD mutation or something so yeah I agree it's just it's so hard when you have and your hunches are always right but you have these hunches and you want to use this old artillery but you really can only use it one on one because at the end of the day we can be responsible with people it's hard to be responsible for the world because like you said everyone's different everyone's story is different and their illness is different and you got to treat each one differently out here in the field when I love that you say that that's the important thing about this is like what you and I do is we sit with one person we listen carefully we put the data together and every plan is different so Dr. Chad and I when we create a plan I don't have any protocols so no one gets a one size fits all because everybody's different it's no different with the virus so we're not claiming answers it's just for individual patients some of these things may be helpful so testing what do you think about the future of the testing that you're doing and where could we do you think this is part of the ability to get our economy out of this what do you see this as future like could we take this to you know all doctor's offices what would you like to see with the testing I think we need everyone's serologically tested and that would mean symptomatic asymptomatic prior symptomatic I just don't see a large-scale rationale on how we get back to work safely without having a data or measurements that give me that reassurance not the assurance but the reassurance that given your sickness in January dry cough loss of smell shortness of breath on the sickest I've been in years fatigue smell comes back I feel better and they have a serology test that everything's positive and they're over 14 days out okay this person is immune in my book probably immune in many doctor's book and when and if that test gets FDA approved and is accepted into the professional you know world the academic world that person should get a passport and that person should then go to the front line and that front line could be a restaurant they work in it could be a car wash could be a hospital but until that the recipient of that worker is assured to some degree that that person is safe and won't infect anyone else I see this being the quickest and only way it's always about data that couples with the story you know that's why we have passports hey I'm Dr. Prusmak I'm coming into your country oh yep we trust you that's why I have a passport that data so they can look at me and say who is this character hopefully they don't find too much nefarious things in my past and they let me in their country it's the same way here I mean you know you and I swim in this very you know it's crazy difficult world of medicine is people die people are sick all the time you hear about your complications not your accolades because your accolades they go along their way but your complications come back and you know it's a it's a it's a hard world so I feel authentically bad that this is hard to explain and that's why this data is so important and it's so important to get that word out there and to get buy in and to make sure we're correct because I think that these passports is what's going to get and help save our society earlier yeah well and one of the reasons I have brought you on tonight is I want people to know who you are what you're doing and so all of you are listening if you listen to the recording later please share especially with people that physicians I'm going to share with my physician groups because I want people to know what Dr. Prasmak is doing and if they're not doing it already I think we can join forces in some of the data collection and really making a difference because that's what it's going to take is at the ground level we're so used to being so independent in the United States and the reason why some of the some of the different countries have had such success in decreasing the levels and getting people back to society is because they're much more of a community-minded as a country we're all out for ourselves even our doctor's office everybody's independent which is great but now's the time to kind of bind together and see if we can make a difference yeah tell me this let's go before the last few minutes we'll just we'll close out in a few minutes here what do you what do you do personally to stay healthy what's your protocol what's your program how do you stay healthy sure so outside of the 30 bottles of supplements that I carry around and me what's in them so I Chris Satan fish oils magnesium the anesthetical systems probably what I rely on for detox I take glutathione I take a mineral complex and then it jumps around but when I look at my staples it's all it's kind of somewhere in that realm and methylated B vitamins because I have one of those snips for methylation the other I guess thing that I I have full buy-in and it was from you is the use of binders again I'm talking about my health but the world is polluted the best we do is try to stay away from all these things dirty like you said clean air clean food clean water clean lifestyle we always get dirty no matter how clean we are the binders I find extraordinarily helpful I find that they pick up what I couldn't pick up if I rather had one too many drinks or whether I ate Taco Bell when I never do I find those quite effective and I find those effective in my patients also so you know the glutathione things the B vitamin things oh a curcumin is huge I take a lot of curcumin an exercise is supreme so you're to ask me how do you stay alive love those around you work out like a demon and then work hard and feel that you're authentically making a difference and then all the supplements and stuff sort of fill in the gaps oh love it oh my gosh from the pro gosh and I would say the same and in sleep is huge I know not everybody has great sleep and and it's difficult that's hard to forget so our subject yeah not my strong point no I find for me that's my kryptonite that is my secret weapon because I am a great sleeper and I I get I maybe only get six and a half and seven but I'm getting like two and a half hours of deep plus two hours of REM like I'm getting 97% efficiency I fall asleep in like four minutes or less and so sorry to brag about that but yeah I'm telling got to put that wearable on you and track you totally right oh and you know I wanted to say because I was a fiend for workout too and I love it and I totally agree with you especially in isolation chat but just personally what I found is I was overtraining and I didn't even know it and last year when I really like pulled way back and realized that my cortisol was sabotaging I lost 8% body fat like without with I always joke I stopped working out and gotten the best shape of my life and as I still lift I still I have a pull-up bar behind me I could do 20 pull-ups I can you know so I'm still really strong and I do work out but it's not like I used to with the intensity and for me personally as a woman in my 40s it really really worked well because that high cortisol was sabotaging me and again not everybody some people do great with orange theory or high intensity interval training or we both of us love the blood flow restriction bands that's a whole other topic but but I'll let you say it whatever works for you but in this time whatever you can do to decrease stress is key too agreed an exercise being one of them you brought up a great point one was the overtraining principles so what a lot of people don't understand is that you know strengthening conditioning is an academic science it's not to the rigor of medicine but there is a rationale to set goals to test and then train and program people so that they never do get over trained and they don't have their cortisol levels go up through IL-6 levels go up through IGA go down and so you can allocate the right metabolic stress that that unique person needs to achieve their goals in the absence of so you know one of the things that we do great at the resilience code is integrate this strength and conditioning rehab and integrated medicine and what we do is like test program and try to reach a goal if goal not achieved regroup reprogram but you've got to track it like you say you can't measure you can't manage it if you don't know what someone wants and the thing about working out like love working out I love kickboxing I love doing high-intensity interval training but at the end of the day when you don't know what you've done over the long term you just feel good every day that to me is not making long-term progress to longevity that's doing the right thing in the moment and I just think that exercise is really under-appreciated and the science of exercise is under-appreciated I love that Jack because had you tracked me you probably could have saved me all those years I've got yeah but like I didn't know it you've done it so hard it was good I know right oh gosh well let's just get I've just got a few questions I know one particular listener I won't call out her name but she just got the test that you run and she came back with two antibodies to proteins to IgA and two to IgM she's asymptomatic she does feel like she had symptoms three weeks ago in the collection of your data would you say she's one of those asymptomatic probably had it probably no longer contagious if she she had quarantined for a full 14 days again two IgM proteins to IgA and even though the IgM still high maybe retest her in 30 to 60 days this is a great case so that so first you have to make a decision if I didn't have the test what would I be telling the person okay so she doesn't need to go to the hospital you take a detailed history you listen when was your last symptom yeah like two weeks ago or more and if it was then clinically she would be over the virus given that she had symptoms that were very likely and that the exposures would be but yes the next step is retest in 10 days or more 14 would be preferable but the reality is 14 days for science but we want to see if she converts from IgM to IgG I'm getting the feeling and again this is just my observation that there's a subgroup that does not convert and they're the asymptomatic ones like like this patient now the IgA issues I've seen diarrhea and sinuses so the IgAs are more again this is a feel a sense not hardcore science is the sore throat fever sinus never thought I had it IgA or fevers chills maybe a cough and some gut problems IgA that's what I've seen and I think that's important what's important also is this presents in so many different ways because we have so many positives on if you ask me to take a test and you have a positive I'd be like oh that doesn't sound like COVID well us out here don't know what COVID is and we're just learning so you got to take every illness seriously document the last and first day you've had symptoms and know that just to be on the safe side if it is that at least 14 days don't be near anyone high risk and always practice the safe practices social distancing hand washing et cetera okay this is super helpful and there's a list one of the doctors who's listening asking what tests could they collaborate collect data do you want to share the specific test do you want docs to know how they could collaborate with you it's up to you how much do you want to share here but yeah yeah yeah I mean I have no disclosures or financial interests in any of these companies we're using and working with vibrance the choice was made based off of prior experience they have four markers the markers that makes it more specific as you know Jill so instead of just one it's all of them so it was that more information it's see highly it looks like a high resolution test the company is really we're about to look at the exact numbers of the titers so answer one is we use that more data is better I'm not saying this is right or the only one nor my partial I think we need to get these in everyone's hands yeah we're trying to work with with companies universities to help collab you know collect all this data and make some some sense of it and we have a discussion with one of the local universities to collaborate tomorrow and another private company but I would recommend that doctors go out there get the test demand it and know that disclose to your patients is isn't that they approved I'm doing my best but we got to work as a team and I want to do no harm first but I want to play some offense you know you can't play defense the entire game I mean I guess if you had Von Miller you would but you know the fact is is we got we got to get our paid man and go and you know punch this thing back and I think our best way is to to figure out what that Wiley virus is doing and I would just enable a any doctor to collaborate to help people to get people to donate blood I think it's would be it so I'm going to have some questions could just kind of wrap it fire about this stuff people are wanting to know and again you can answer or not answer whatever is appropriate first of all if a patient's listening they want to get tested can they go to your facility or is that only you only your patients or where would you recommend they contact their doctor go to your doctor first and I'm happy to talk to those doctors but yes we are testing at the resilience code right now we're in the trial basis hopefully this will be FDA approved soon and then collectively as a society doctors and patients alike we all should get together and you know agree on the safety of these things and how we consult them on what to do but yes we do the test now we do it five days a week and our goal is to get people safer quicker by delivering more data and information to them and to people smarter than me in this area love it and then if doctors are interested is there someone on your team they could contact that would like because I think I want to share this with my colleagues and my doctors more than anything so if there is any collaboration is there your team member who would they contact from your this is for physicians only but who would they contact to collect data with you yeah so Angela Andrea Beaver she's our chief navigational officer and so she is the one that's helping organize all the different blood draws we all use mass safe practices we take in data she would be the go-to contact person and you could find at least our phone number on our website which is wwwmyresiliencecode.com awesome and I'll be sure and share that link so if anyone you scroll through the comments you can see it awesome Dr. Przemek this has been so fun we are trying together hopefully you guys listening we answered your questions if you like this please share because we I did this just because I want to get the testing out I want to get people to know what Dr. Przemek's doing he's quiet and he's actually for a neurosurgeon he's very humble I just have to say that because you really are one of the most nice humble guys I've met and you're a neurosurgeon like what's up with that too thank you thank you and thank you so much for having me Jill I just want to let you know again what a blessing you are to my health because you being my doctor and also to revolutionizing this field so just thank you for having me on thank you thank you guys for listening like I said please share and at your comments I'll come back and answer those have a great evening good night tonight