recordings are available. So if you missed a previous one, they are available through the NCAR UCAR drive. And if you are external to the NCAR UCAR drive, please let me know and we'll find a way to make sure that you have access to those recordings. Okay. With that, I'm going to stop screen sharing and hand this over to Scott. Good morning, everyone. And thanks, Mariana. For those of you who don't know me, I'm Scott Landolf. I'm the Advanced Study Program Science Advisor. But a little bit more in my background, I've been with NCAR for over 26 years now. So I've been through the whole budget proposal process many, many times. And my goal today is really to walk all of you through how to develop a budget, things that you need to consider when you're putting in your budget and how to avoid some of the more common pitfalls associated with potentially not getting enough money to fund your project. I will say outside of putting together your proposal and putting something together that makes sense, that's concise, probably the budget is one of the most critical things in that entire process.  So I want to first, as Mariana said, make sure that all of you have the budget template that she sent out in that email. Feel free to pull it up. You can walk through, put your own numbers in as I'm walking you through all of this to see how things change. But really, again, the goal of this is to talk through everything that you're going to need to consider when you put the budget together because there are a lot of things and it's not just I want to buy this instrument and I'm going to put this much time for this person on my budget. There's there's a lot more that goes through that through that process. So I'm going to share my screen and I want to start with the budget, the example budget template itself. Want to make sure everybody can see that. Looks good. Excellent. Okay, so this budget template is actually the template that we use in the research applications laboratory. It looks fairly big, somewhat intimidating, but once you learn how to go through this, you can put some numbers in here fairly quickly and get a pretty rough idea of what it is that you're looking at in terms of for the given cost of people and equipment and other things. What what am I looking at potentially for my base budget and is it going to fit within my proposal for where I'm submitting my proposal to? The upper left, a lot of this information here. Could you zoom in probably maybe like you're at a hundreds and maybe 150 would be good? Yeah, let me try that. I want to make sure everybody can see this okay. Is that a little better? No. 170. I think it's not scaling so like in the bottom right of your the Excel screen which has the slider bar and it's showing that still at 100. That's interesting. I wonder, let me, it's probably, let me do this. Let me just share my whole screen and then things might scale a little bit better. Thank you for pointing that out Mariana. That was not what I wanted to do. Hang on just a second. Okay, here we go. Is that a little bit easier to see and let me see if I can scale it up a little bit more even. It is showing that it's scaled but it might be a Google issue where it's like it's lagging with what's been scaled. That is entirely possible. So I don't know what would be the best option on this. Let me just ask does everybody have the budget template open because I can walk you through the different cells. It may be easier to do that and you can see how all of the different things are changing. I could also just screen share the template and then you tell me what buttons to push to if that would work. Yeah, we can definitely try that also. Okay. Let me go ahead and do that then. Thank you for bearing with us everyone. Excellent. Google Meade seems to like you better than me. All right. I will just drive and you tell me where to go. Perfect. That sounds good. So the upper left hand corner is really more of just information for any of the admin staff. So we would just put what the proposal title is in there, the funding source. In this case, this would be an example for proposing funding from the FAA, but you could put NSF in there. You could put DOE. You could put anybody. Principal investigators, you would probably list yourself. Anybody else within your organization that is also going to be a PI? You can list up there. Again, the information in this particular box isn't going to have much bearing on the rest of your template. It's more information for the administrators. Time frame will give them the period of performance. So they know is this a single year? Is this a multi-year type of project? NCAR itself will generate a proposal number in their system, which you can then put in there next to the NCAR proposal number. And then of course, date generated is just the date you put this together if you want to keep track of multiple budget templates as you evolve your budgets for your proposal. So, Mariana, what I'm going to have you do is actually scroll down a little bit more. We're going to pass this first section because a lot of what's in there tends to populate itself as you put other stuff in. Keep going down a little bit further to the employee name section here. So I'm going to start with this section because this section is going to allow you to start putting people in and hours for those people, the number of hours you think that they're going to work on your particular project. So right now, we don't have any people in there. And Mariana, what I'm going to have you do is down in the lower left on the tab for the spreadsheet where it says staff listing.  And ideally, in your case, and when you're putting a budget proposal together, you would have actual people listed in here with their actual salary so that you can more appropriately budget and know exactly how much that given person is going to cost you for however many hours that you put into that proposal. But for now, we're going to stick with these these general categories and the so you see the name of the different groups of categories there. There's the administrators, associate scientists, there's project scientists, software engineers, and then the salary program or the salary associated with each one of those levels. And those salaries are about midpoint for each of those different levels. So let's say for your given project, you are obviously going to want to cover some of your time. So if you look for a project scientist one there on row 16, we're going to select that first cell that a 16 cell, we'll do a control C, we're going to copy that. And then we're going to go to the example budget, and we're going to paste it there into a 63. And you notice when you do that, the project scientist one pops in there, but also the hourly rate for that project scientist also pops into column B. So now we know what the hourly rates associated with that that project scientist one is. All right, so let's say that this project scientist one is you. And let's say that you want to fund yourself entirely on this project. So you can say that there's probably roughly about 1400 hours in a given year that a person is going to be able to spend on a project, assuming that they are working full time. So we'll go ahead and put 1440 hours in here under task one. And we're going to hit enter. And you notice that now there is next to the hours, a new number that has popped up. That number 206,463 is essentially what the cost for that employee is to the organization. Now, if you go back to the staff listing tab, per second, Mariana, you notice in the salary range, it says 108,519, which is a significantly different number than the one that shows up next to the hours under the example budget. What's happened here is this template has automatically gone through and applied all of the overhead costs associated with that employee. So overhead being costs for benefits, costs for things like vacation, your healthcare costs to cover administrative staff, like the admins, the admin assistants, who generally don't get tied to a specific proposal. But obviously, there has to be money there for them to support projects, money to cover operating costs around NCAR, electricity, those sorts of things. All of that goes into the overhead, which then gets applied to the amount that gets put in here. So on average, a project scientist one, what we would say fully loaded, meaning full benefits covering everything costs the organization about $200,000 a year. So, okay, we know now, if you're putting yourself in for that amount, that whatever you're applying to, you need to make sure that they're going to be able to cover at least $200,000 as part of your budget. Let's just add a few more people in here just to give you an idea of some other people and costs associated with those people that may be reasonable that we're going to want to bring on to your project. So let's say, let's grab a software engineer or programmer two, which is row 25. We'll copy and paste them into the templates. And then let's grab let's say let's grab an associate scientist three, and copy and paste them over as well. And we'll start with these ones. So let's say for a software engineer, you're going to need somebody to write some code for you. You estimate it's probably going to take them about a month of their time. So 40 hours a week means that you're going to want to put 160 hours in for them. And then your associate scientists three, they're going to help you with a lot of support work. Let's say you're estimating maybe 800 hours of their time throughout the course of the year. So right there, off the top, we're looking at a little over 300k, just in salary costs for the different employees and stuff that are going to be working on this project. Let's say that you decide that you would like to also have a student assistant, you're going to bring in an undergraduate student. They actually are going to go in a different section of this budget template. So the section that we're working in right now is really for your normal employees. These are the employees that get all of the benefits, the regular paid time off, that sort of thing. Students are more of an hourly employee. Generally, they don't tend to get a lot of the benefits. They may not get health care. But there is some overhead associated with them. It's just at a much lower level. So Mariana, if you want to scroll down a little bit more, there's the casual name in row 105. This is where we're going to put student assistance or anybody who isn't a regular employee. So if we go over to the staff listing and scroll down a little bit, I think there are some students in here, yeah, student assistant to row 218. So we'll copy that and paste that in there. So a student assistant to is about 1750 an hour. Let's say you anticipate using them for a week for six months. So let's say put down 400 hours, let's say roughly for them. And then if you scroll up a little bit, you'll see that the budget amount went up a little bit, not nearly as much as it did with the other employees. So there is some overhead costs associated with them, but not to the level of other employees. So it's important to know when you're budgeting for different people, are they a full time employee? Are they getting all of the benefits? Or are they more of a casual employee, as we would call them, that are just paid an hourly wage, because they will go into two different spots because they accrued different overhead rates. So that's everything associated with your actual staff, the people that you want to put in on the budget templates. So Marianne, if you want to scroll back up, I want to walk through some of the other cells and stuff that appear closer to the top and explain a little bit more about what these are, especially now that we've got some numbers and stuff filling in on this template. So those those rows 18 through 23, these are the rows where all of the that overhead, the benefits and everything automatically are being calculated. So in addition to your salary, these are the additional amounts associated with that overhead that's getting applied to your your full budget amount. So there's really not much that you need to do in those sections because everything is already preset for you. Row 24, I want to talk about a little bit materials and supplies. So there are a couple of things to be aware of, especially if you're looking at having to purchase computers, maybe equipment, various different things to support your project, you're looking at doing a field project, you're going to need to buy some sensors. Materials and supplies basically cover everything that is going to be less than $5,000. The $5,000 mark is an important one to understand because if you buy something for more than $5,000, it's considered an asset to the organization. Assets do not accrue any type of overhead on top of them. So if you put in, let's say you want to get a sensor that's $7,000, that means you do not have to pay any overhead on the purchase of that $7,000 instrument. If it's less than $5,000, let's say you have an instrument that's $2,500, that would be considered materials and supplies that is going to accrue about 56% overhead on that cost. So anything materials and supplies related you would want to go and put in here. So common materials and supplies that you may need to put in here. Laptop computers that do not cost $5,000 would be considered a material and supply. Other things for the projects, like I said, sensors that cost less than $5,000 would be considered materials and supplies. If you need to purchase a printer, maybe a 3D printer for something you're doing. If that is less than $5,000, that's going to be materials and supplies. So looking at the individual items, you can have a material and supply amount that say $10,000, but it's composed of a bunch of different components that by themselves are each less than $5,000. So what happens if we have something greater than $5,000? Marianna, scroll down just a little bit more. Keep going a little bit more right there. Row 46, equipment. That is where you would put in the equipment costs. So anything greater than $5,000 will go into that equipment value right there. So you would put it in D46. So let's just say you have a $7,000 computer, a server or something that you need to purchase. So under D46, let's put $7,000 in there. And you will notice that the grand total there actually jumped by an even $7,000 amount because there was no overhead applied to any of that. Now there is one other thing to be aware of when talking about materials and supplies. Let's say you want to buy a laptop and you want to buy a monitor that goes along with it and an external hard drive as a backup to your computer. Each of those individual components is less than $5,000, but their combined value is going to be greater than $5,000. You can put that together as an asset as long as those things will always remain together. So you buy this laptop, you're always going to be using this laptop with the monitor and with that hard drive, you can make that argument to UCAR saying, this should be considered equipment because it's all being pieced together as one thing. And in that case, then instead of claiming that as materials and supplies, you can put that under your equipment costs. The property office is a great office. Betsy Hulsing heads that up, Chris Neuchon is also a great resource. But each division also has a property representative that you can go to and ask these questions to and say, hey, I'm piecing these things together. I'm building or I have this sensing system that requires three sensors, but they're always going to be together. They're always going to be going to this common computer. I would like to tie those together as an asset. They will go back, they'll make sure you can do that and come back to you and say, yes, you can go ahead and put that in your budget as an asset. So keep that in mind when you're dealing with materials and supplies, there are ways to get materials and supplies put into equipment, as long as whatever you tie together always remains together throughout the course of however long you have those things. If the laptop breaks, you can request a dismantle and then use the other components separately. Okay, let's scroll back up a little bit more, Mariana. I'll talk about a few of these other sections. You'll notice that there's a software row. So if there's any software that you need to purchase, you can put that information in there, whatever the cost of the software is, just simply fill that out in D 25. Interest is not something we typically deal with. But if for some reason, there's something that's going to require an interest payment, you would put that in there. That's pretty uncommon. I've never personally encountered that in any of the stuff that I've done. Row 27 purchase services. This would be a row where if you are building an instrument, and you're going to need machine shop time, you would want to get an estimate from the machine shop, that's going to be a service that you're purchasing from them, that cost goes into this particular row here. Row 28. Very important one. This one almost always has some numbers associated with it. Publications. Where are you going to publish your final research? What journal? Get a cost estimate for what it typically costs to publish in that journal. And you're going to put that information in under the publications cost there. rows 29 through 38. If you have multiple purchase services from multiple different organizations, you can you've got 10 options there, you can put each of the individual ones in. If you're building an instrument, and you require different shops and stuff to be involved, put that information in on those different lines. rows 39 and rows 40 travel. You're probably going to be traveling for conferences. Maybe you're going to be participating in a field campaign. You would need to go through and come up with your estimates for domestic travel. And if you're doing anything international, come up with your estimates for international travel. All of those values will go into rows 39 and rows 40 under column D. So that's that kind of gives you a breakdown of all of the things that you would need to think about in terms of what you're putting into this actual budget. So let's just throw a few more values in here under materials and supplies. Let's say you've got $4,500 worth of materials and supplies. Let's say you need to buy $500 worth of software for a special program that you're going to be using. Let's say there's not really any purchase services, but for publications, let's say you plan to put two public publications out. You want to publish in an AMS journal, which is probably about $2,000 to $2,500. Let's say $5,000 for two publications. And then let's go down to travel. Let's say it's only for something here in the US, you plan to want to go to AMS to present on some of your work. For those of you who have been doing budgets and stuff lately, you've seen the AMS costs about $3,000. So let's put $3,000 in for domestic travel there. And then let's scroll down a little bit more. Let's see. Oh, and there's one other thing I forgot to mention. Row 49. If you plan to use any type of super computer time here at NCAR, this is the row that you would put in the estimated costs for running your jobs and stuff on the supercomputer. So that also was built in there and it'll do the automatic calculations and stuff for you on that as well. Everything else below that again, it gets auto filled. You don't really have to worry about that. But now you can look at our grand total column. And you can see that for everything that we have put in, for the time of all of those people, for the equipment for the materials and supplies and for the travel, this budget comes out to be about $377,628. Now, this is for we're going to assume that this is for one year. Many of you are putting in proposals for multi years. There are other budget templates and stuff that each of the divisions have where you can put in by year. And one thing, as all of you have probably noticed, usually what happens is at one point throughout the course of the year, we have reviews that come around, you get a promotion. So you can't assume that your salary is going to remain static throughout the entire two, three, five year budgeting period. So in the templates that break these things out by year, usually they assume a 4% increase in salaries and stuff year to year.  So this is kind of a big quick and dirty rundown of how to go through these different things. I know I went through this a little bit fast. But there is one thing that I want to impress upon you and that is don't sell yourself short on some of these estimates materials and supplies. You can usually come up with pretty good estimates equipment. Usually you have to go get a quote or what it is that you want to buy and put that in as the actual estimated cost. But when it comes to salaries, I usually suggest, put down what you think you're going to need and pad it a little bit, don't pad it a lot, but pad it enough that if something happens, if somebody goes out sick, you need to bring somebody else onto the project, somebody leaves. So you need to pick up a new person who may cost a little bit more, make sure you account for that, put some additional hours in for some of the other people so that you have that flexibility in your schedule to be able to adjust in case something happens over the course of your project. That will help you avoid the pitfall of running out of money before you get to the end of your project and not being able to deliver on what you said you were going to. Let's see in terms of the budget justification. So that is the other component that goes along with all of this. We at NCAR are a little spoiled because the budget justification will oftentimes get put together by our administrative staff. They may come to you for things like having to write up what do you need? Why are you traveling? What are you traveling for? So there's a travel section in your budget justification. There'll be an equipment and materials and supplies, budget justification, and then there'll be a salaries budget justification component. Again, the admin staff generally take care of all the salaries because they can look at this and all you would need to do is state specifically what is each one of those job categories going to specifically be doing budget justifications are not long. There may be two pages at the most just be concise, simply states under equipment and purchasing this sensor at this cost to serve this purpose on the project. Straightforward simple doesn't need a lot of explanation because chances are in the rest of your proposal, you've already explained and gotten into detail why it is that you need that specific sensor and what its purpose is going to be. So I'm going to stop there. I will take any questions you have. Like I said, I know we kind of went through this a little bit quickly, but I want I want you to have this budget template so that you can go through and kind of plug your own numbers in, get an idea of what you're looking at for some of the the different numbers and how quickly your budget can balloon as you start putting different categories. Let's see, looks like first question. Can you clarify you got to 1440 hours for the project scientist? Is that a standard number for a year of work? 52 times 40? Yeah, what is what is 52 times 40 come out to be the type of I had 40 is roughly 2080 hours, but you have to consider that there's holidays that are in there. There's also you're probably not going to work without taking any PTO as part of that. So when you start factoring those things in, it really starts bringing those those hours down. So we we usually estimate 1400 to 1450, I think on average for a lot of that. What is the best way to estimate salary for employees that haven't been hired yet? Also an excellent question. In that particular case, I think the this budget template that I've given you, looking at those individual different job categories, those numbers that are in there are an average value for those different categories. So you can simply pull those actual numbers out, put them in your budget templates and budget to those us with the idea that those numbers are probably going to be on the slightly high end of things. And when you actually bring those employees in, they're going to come in at a slightly lower value. So you've already built in a little bit of padding on your estimates for employees that you haven't hired yet. Did you develop the spreadsheet? Some sort of standard to use. This is the standard template that we actually use in the research applications lab. So yes, it's, you can use it as an estimate. It's valid for right now. But once the new overhead estimates and stuff come out from UCAR, then it becomes a little bit antiquated, and you need to figure out what those new values are, put those into the spreadsheet, and then it kind of updates things. So it's good for estimating what your final budget is going to be. You may need to do a little bit of wiggling when you get it into the final form. When you go through the actual proposal process with contracts, because sometimes if things change, depending on when you put your proposal in and when your proposal start date is, you may cross multiple different years where costs are going to change, and you may need to change things a little bit. But this template should get you very close to what your final amount is going to be. Do you have to use the amounts budgeted for the specific purpose listed? If you don't use all budget for salary, can you use leftover for travel? Yes. So in many cases, you go through, you do the budget. What you're putting forth in your proposal is your best guess, your best estimate for what you think you're going to be spending in the different categories. Does that ever work out? Almost never. Inevitably, something comes up, COVID comes up, you can't travel anymore. So usually those funds then get freed up and you can use those in place of salary instead. So some funding institutes may be a little bit more picky on that, some of them may require that those funds get budgeted specifically for travel and only for travel. And sometimes you can reach out to them and say, hey, we're not going to be able to do this travel, but we'd really like to be able to use it for XYZ instead. And that will allow you to what we call reprogram those costs over to salary instead of using them for travel. So there is a lot of flexibility for the most part in that but it depends on the funding organization and usually you can ask them and most of them tend to be willing to work with you. Would you put abstract fees for conferences and travel or publications? Also a good question. Generally, I would put the abstract fees in as part of travel, because it kind of falls out of going to the conference requires you to submit an abstract which means there's going to be a fee associated with that but you're traveling to that conference. So I would just wrap it in under travel and not necessarily under publications. Usually if you car sees that you've put in $200 for a publication, they're going to come back and say, did you forget a zero on the end of that for your publication? So it's easier just to wrap that into travel and it's fine to point there. How do you estimate how many hours you would spend on any given project? And what's your approach for ballparking that? This is probably the thing that people struggle with the most is figuring out how many hours you're going to spend. If you plan to fund yourself entirely on that project, you can figure out what your hours were given year would be and put that in there and that's not so much of a problem. But if you want to bring a software engineer on or something like that, usually have a conversation with the people that you want to bring on and say, all right, here's what I have lined out for you. This is what I want you to do. You have an idea of how much of your time it's going to take to do that sort of thing. And I'll tell you, that's probably three weeks of my time. So you can go in and put 120 hours in for them for that given project. As you start doing more of these, you start getting a better idea of how much it's going to cost for your staff to work on various different projects. And you don't have to go to them as much anymore and ask them for that sort of thing. But generally speaking, usually having conversations with the people that you want to bring on your project and getting a feel from them what they think it's going to take is probably the best way to do that. And again, I would say whatever hours they give you, maybe tack on an extra week just in case to pad that a little bit to make sure that you have enough money to cover whatever it is that that they're going to be working on. What happens if you budget money for supplies and that resource is no longer available, like the helium shortage? That is also an excellent question, because we have certainly encountered those sorts of things before. So it probably gets into a bigger issue of is that shortage going to have major impacts on your project, in which case you may need to go back to the sponsor and say, we really wanted to do this, but we can't get ahold of any helium to be able to do this. So we need to figure out, can we do the project without doing that? Or is there some other substitute that we can potentially use, which maybe is going to cost a little bit more that we hadn't anticipated, in which case, maybe you need to put in a supplementary request for more funds to be able to support that. In some cases, if it's not a big deal, you think you can get that information without requiring that it's not a critical component for your project. Again, you can potentially take that money and put it over towards salaries for staff. But if it gets you into a bit of a bind, it is having impacts on your projects. My recommendation would be to reach out to your sponsor, tell them what's going on, have that conversation with them, see if they have any suggestions and see if you can figure out what the path forward is. The one thing that I will also highly recommend to all of you is don't be afraid to reach out to sponsors, especially when you get into some of these situations. I've seen situations in the past where people have been hesitant to want to reach out to sponsors when they encounter problems. And then it kind of snowballs into a bigger and bigger issue to the point where when the sponsor does find out there's major implications for the project and if people had reached out earlier, it could have been resolved fairly easily and things could have moved forward. So don't hesitate to talk to sponsors and stuff if you get into some of these situations. And again, oftentimes if it's not a big deal, you can reprogram that money over to salaries or ask them if you can do something else. Are there instances where the funding agency has a cap on the overhead rate? And if so, how does NCAR handle that? Yes, that definitely will happen with some funding agencies where they say we're only going to pay a certain amount of overhead. There are ways to work through UCAR on that. You can get exemptions. This comes through working with your admin in your division who will go back contact contracts and say, All right, we've got this group that's only willing to pay XYZ amount on overhead for this given project. I have encountered that once on a proposal where I put in where they said, Yeah, we understand your overhead rates, but we're only going to cover 25% of that. So we've had to go back and usually depending on the dollar amount, UCAR will allow you to put an exemption in for that. So there are ways to get exemptions and your administrator will know how to do that. Based on your experience, do you have a percentage by which you try to overestimate the cost to make sure you don't run out of funding? Also a good question. I would say in many cases, depending on your funding source, some proposals that you're going to put in, they will actually tell you we are giving million dollar rewards. So you already know that your cap is going to be a million dollars. So you could start with that million dollar amount, put your values in and see how things come out. And if you're over, then you need to figure out, okay, what what different components of the proposal might I need to cut out and reduce staff time or reduce equipment cost, stuff like that to get it down to within that range. If it's an open proposal where there is no funding cap on that sort of thing, generally I would say for associate scientists, usually what I do is look at what their estimates are. If they're telling me that it's probably going to take a month to do something, I'll tack on one to two weeks of additional time just in case. Software engineers, most of them tend to be pretty good. Usually when I get estimates from them, maybe I tack on one week of extra funding for them. If it's a really in-depth project, maybe it's you're looking at three, four, five months of software engineering time, throw in an extra month on top of that just in case something comes up. It really comes down to it's almost like a jigsaw puzzle of sorts where you start putting numbers in, give it your best guess first, see what your final amount comes out to be. Are you within budget for what they're saying? Yes, great. If it's an open call, then start thinking through the process of if this person gets caught up and I can't have them right away and I have to pull somebody else in, how much more is it going to cost to bring that person in? That's another good way of looking at that and saying, okay, well, they're a more expensive person. Maybe they aren't as up-to-date as this other person was. They're going to require some extra time to get caught up to speed. I'm going to throw an extra month of funding in for them just in case. That's another good way to help out with estimates and padding things. You don't want to pad things so much that you end up going to NSF with like a three million dollar proposal for something that reviewers are going to look at and say, this is a $500,000 project. Keep that in mind, too. Make sure that the amount that you come up with seems reasonable for the work that you are actually proposing. I would also suggest reaching out to other scientists and stuff that have been through this process multiple times and have some conversations with them and say, hey, can you look at my budget? Does this seem to be reasonable for what it is that I'm doing in this proposal? They can also very quickly look at these things and say, yeah, that looks good. Maybe I would bump this area up a little bit. It seems like you've got too much in this area. Maybe reduce this down for this sort of thing. Excellent question. I don't think we have any other questions in that. So Scott, did you have any last closing remarks that you might want to share with us regarding budgets where we can seek help or such? The only other thing I'll say is if you get into a situation where you're being asked to put together a proposal and you want some help with the budget, don't hesitate to reach out to me. I'm happy to look things over. I can give you some input from my side as to what I think in terms of what you put in your budget. If there's things that you might be forgetting, if you're over, if you're under, if you need to make tweaks here and there, I'm more than happy to do that. I would say take some time with this template, go through, copy things in, see how it changes the numbers and really get an idea of what you're looking at for the costs of the various different categories. But yeah, probably I'll reiterate again that the most important thing when it comes to the budgets is make sure you don't sell yourself short and you have enough estimated to cover the cost of what it is that you're proposing to do. All right. Well, with that, we want to thank you for walking us through the budget template and sharing it with us most importantly that we have something that we can use while planning. And I'd want to thank everyone for joining us this morning. And as a reminder, we are in the holiday conference season. So take care of yourself, hydrate, get your sleep. The science will be there in the morning when you wake up. So with that, we will see you in the new year for our convergent science section. Thank you, everyone. Thanks, everyone.


So let me again summarize what we said in the last class before we move to the next topic that is configuration interaction is that we saw in the perturbation theory that up to second order we find the importance of, so from the MP2 description when we say MP2 for energy remember whenever we are talking of MP2 it is for energy but the wave function actually starts at MP1. I hope that is clear to everybody because the first order correction is at this first wave function corrects at the first order and hence the energy corrects at the second order because we have this formula that E0 2 is Psi 0 0 V Psi 0 1. So these two when we analyze we see that the contribution comes from only doubly excited determinants. So no singles due to Brillouin's theorem and of course no triples I want to summarize no triples and etc. etc quadruples and so on because of Slater rules. So Slater rules does not allow the V to connect from with the Hartree-Fock to triply excited because we have only one matrix element Hartree-Fock V excited determinants and back to Hartree-Fock. So only doubly excited determinants contribute so I think we just want to emphasize the importance of doubly excited determinants in the lowest order correction. So what we mean by lowest order correction is of course that this is the most important correction and this is why doubly excited determinants play an important role. Later this was expanded or around the same time by Synanoglu. I think the review I had already mentioned but very important highlights was that Synanoglu later described that the correlation takes place mostly in pairs. So what we call pair correlation theory and here there was a simple physical insight that I explained last time is that essentially for the exact wave function no two electron coordinates can be identical because if they are same the wave function must go to 0 because the Hamiltonian becomes singular so the only possible solution is that the psi must go to 0 which means there is a vanishing probability of any Ri becoming equal to Rg. Vanishing probability of course everything is in terms of probability. So Synanoglu argued that that essentially means that whenever two particles come together they would like to repel each other. They would like to go away and the only way they go away is to get excited to the virtual orbitals so that they have a larger space of a larger degree of freedom. Hartree-Fock does not give you the degree of freedom because your orbitals are only n. So if you have large m orbitals then they can go away. So this is why of course the virtual orbitals are important but what was important is to notice that only two particles can come close together. This was Synanoglu's argument. Why? Because if you look at Hartree-Fock so only two particles or two electrons have a large probability or two electrons have a large probability of coming together in Hartree-Fock of course in Hartree-Fock. So this was a very hand waving argument. So what is the reason? Because Hartree-Fock is a single determinant. So it already has the anti-symmetry built-in. It has the Pauli-Extrusion principle built-in which means no three electrons can come in the same special orbitals. So a special orbital can have at the most two electrons and because two electrons are in special orbital there is a probability that they can come together. So those two electrons must have to be correlated by exciting them to the virtual orbitals. So that is the genesis of the pair correlation theory that more than two electrons is difficult because of the Fermi principle and single electron excitation is simply not possible because Hartree-Fock has the billows condition. So then of course Synanoglu argued that there can be four particle excitations but that would be because of two pairs getting correlated simultaneously. So two pairs correlated which means in a Hartree-Fock two particles or two electrons get independently correlated giving rise to a four particle correlation. So you can have now three pairs which will give rise to six particle determinant, six-fold excited determinant. So you can break down the probability of those determinants in terms of pairs, product of pairs correlation. So we will come to that when you do CI. So essentially the coefficients for those excited determinants can be written in terms of products of the coefficients of W-excited determinants because mainly the correlation takes place in pairs. So this was the argument, the second argument he gave was that the Hamiltonian itself is one and two particle Hamiltonian. So it is not possible for the Hamiltonian to correlate more than two particles. So essentially the idea is that what Synanoglu is saying that more than two particles cannot be correlated or chances of correlating more than two particles are less. So the pair correlation is the most dominant term. So this is what the Synanoglu's theory was. Essentially every time we are talking of correlation, please understand that means the probability of avoiding. When would they avoid if they come close together? So what we are saying is that in the Hartree-Fock which is an uncorrelated description where there is no correlation, there is a chance of two particles coming close together because Hartree-Fock allows at least anti-parallel spins to be paired together and those two particles have to be correlated when you go beyond Hartree-Fock. So this was essentially Synanoglu's theory, we will expand that when we come to CI and the perturbation theory essentially tells the same thing that you have a preponderance or importance of W-excited determinants and you do not have singles and triples. But of course the pair theory goes much beyond simple perturbation theory because it also says that two pairs can be correlated or three pairs can be correlated which is absent in the perturbation theory unless you go to higher order perturbations. So you can do MP3, MP4, then of course you will see those effects. At MP2 you do not see those effects. So I think I just wanted to mention that we are not going to do rigorously Synanoglu's theory but at least in a hand waving thing we have to understand because this is a quite a difficult theory. This eventually leads to what is called the today couple cluster theory which we will do much later. So we will come back to that later but at this point I think we will now start on our next topic and we will try to relate to this the perturbation theory is the configuration interaction. I want to mention that the perturbation and configuration interaction are the two major electron correlated theories to start with. So it is the interaction of the configurations which leads to improvement of the Hartree-Fock. So this is something that we already discussed that if I have m virtual orbitals I can have MCn determinants and your full wave function is a linear combination of all the MCn determinants. I hope that is clear to everybody and we have taken an example to show by taking a two particle function let us say psi12. So what we did was to allow one of the coordinates to be used as a parameter that is for a given value of one coordinate this is only let us say coordinate 1, this is only a function of coordinate 2, the spin and of course the spin and the space. So then we can write this as Ci into the determinants of form from any chi i chi j where this, sorry, ci1 into chi i2. So this is basically a linear combination of chi i2 but I am writing ci as a function of 1 because as one changes the coefficient will only change. As we mentioned this before they are parametrically the different. Then we expanded ci1 exactly the same manner and we get some dji chi j chi i. Of course this cannot be a simple product so it has to be anti-semitrize product and this is basically the determinants. So if I have a complete set of orbitals or spin orbitals then if you form all two particle determinants out of this complete set and make a linear expansion this is in principle an exact wave function. So this is an exact wave function. So for our many particle problems an exact wave function psi 0 can be written as a linear combination. The first determinant is Hartree-Fock. Once again note that one of the determinants we want to keep Hartree-Fock which means the basis of orbitals that we use are the Hartree-Fock orbitals plus the virtual orbitals. So what is our basis? So basis that we use normally for ci is the Hartree-Fock basis. So Hartree-Fock orbital let us say n of them. When I mean orbital I mean actually spin orbitals to start with plus the virtual m minus n orbitals, virtual orbitals. Now the quality of the virtual orbital of course determines how good is your wave function but note that these virtual orbitals are always orthogonal to this n's Hartree-Fock orbitals. So these are commonly called occupied orbitals these are called virtual orbitals. But what I am trying to say that I can get some other virtual also. So I can get just the Hartree-Fock orbital another set of virtual but the property of that must be that they should be orthogonal to this. That is the only important thing. Otherwise the entire physics will become complicated. If you solve from the Routhan equation or from the Hartree-Fock canonical equation you automatically get orthogonal. You automatically get orthogonal. You can get infinity in principle but the point is that you cannot actually solve this. So for all molecules we use an expansion in terms of basis. So as I explained to you that we actually do not solve f chi i equal to E i chi i. We use the Routhan equation. So we first do a spin integration and then the spatial orbitals we expand in terms of m basis. So that is where the finiteness comes in. So in principle yes m should go to infinity. So if you solve f chi i equal to epsilon i chi i then automatically they are orthonormal. Orthonormal it is automatically preserved but if not as far as our discussion goes they should be orthogonal to this n orbitals. So I have a set of m spin orbitals. So out of each n of them are Hartree-Fock spin orbitals. So they are called occupied. So these are occupied orbitals. They are just giving a kind of a box. So their n spin orbitals are there and this determinant which is formed from here is one determinant which is Hartree-Fock. Then you have m minus n number from here and this number should be as large as possible depending on what is the value of capital M. And to be exact it should be infinity for a real complete basis set but of course we cannot get infinity so we assume that it is as large as possible and it is near complete. So that is our assumption. These are my virtual orbitals. Many times they are called unoccupied. They are unoccupied because they are unoccupied in the Hartree-Fock. So starting from the Hartree-Fock reference they are called unoccupied orbitals. So this is the description and then I can generate many, many determinants by exciting electrons 1, 2, whatever up to the virtual orbitals. So I can have two excitations, single excitations, double excitations, triple excitations and so on. So your actual wave function will then be linear combination and I explain to you that all the m cn determinants can be categorized as a Hartree-Fock plus all singly excited plus all doubly excited and so on. So I can write this as sum over a r, c a r, psi a r. Again please note the symbols that a is occupied orbital so we are using a, b, c etc. for this set and we are using r, s, t etc. for the virtual orbitals. So the symbols are very clear. So this is a determinant which is generated from Hartree-Fock by changing the spinor beta a to r.  So once again this is a doubly excited determinant which is generated from the Hartree-Fock by two electron change from a b to r s. So this is doubly excited and then you can continue to make triply excited and so on, r s, t and so on and you can keep writing in the same manner. I am not writing so if you keep on writing up to all what is the final thing all n triply excited. The m cn determinant what is the maximum number of degree of excitation when you have excited all the n electrons here. So that is your n triply excited so that is your final number. But of course the number of determinants in each case can be infinity if your m is infinity because of this fact that there is r s. Number of degree of excitation is finite. Please understand this difference because degree of excitation depends on your number of particles. So we are talking about finite particle system so you can only excite n number of electrons but you can excite two orbitals which can go as high as possible number of orbitals. So that is in the each category the number is infinity. In principle it can be infinity and all together if you add this as well as this the number was m cn. So that is something that I showed the other day we mentioned. So this becomes an exact wave function and this is what is called full C i. So C i is basically configuration interaction so this is called C i in very common term so this is called full C i. Since our m is not infinity we have to say that we do full C i in a finite basis so this finite basis is capital M. So this is not really a still an exact wave function because exact wave function would be when m becomes infinity because otherwise my initial argument that this is i equal this is a complete set itself does not hold good if m is not infinity. So although we normally say full C i is exact but please understand the meaning of the exact is in this finite basis. So in fact everything that we talk starting from Hartree-Fock for molecule is in a basis I already mentioned to you even the Hartree-Fock we have not solved in exactly. So there is something called exact so I have exact Hartree-Fock. I have Hartree-Fock in a finite basis let us say m basis I have exact energy and I have any calculation mp2 C i full C i everything is in m basis so everything is in m basis. What is exact energy? Exact energy is nothing but full C i energy for m going to infinity I hope it is clear. So if I do a full C i that means my form of the wave function is complete. Form is complete but when you give exact energy when my basis will also become infinity. So there are two different points because here I am first expanding a basis to come to this form but this basis has to be infinity. So if I do a full C i in a limit m tends to infinity that will actually be exact calculation physically exact calculation which we cannot do. So please understand very loosely we say full C i is exact but this is actually exact in this finite basis. So everything that we talk of is finite basis similarly exact Hartree-Fock. What is exact Hartree-Fock? It is also Hartree-Fock in m basis when m tends to infinity. So we are not even doing exact Hartree-Fock. So please understand and we must understand the ordering of the energy. If we increase the basis the Hartree-Fock will improve because Hartree-Fock is variational method so I have more number of functions it will improve. So if I do a Hartree-Fock in an m basis your exact Hartree-Fock will be always lower because as m increases the Hartree-Fock goes to the exact Hartree-Fock and then you have correlation energy whatever I am doing C i or whatever in m basis and then within that you have exact correlation. If this is variational then again one can show that the exact correlation will be smaller than the correlation of m basis if it is variational. Hartree-Fock is variational so I can definitely say this but for the correlation I have to ensure how am I doing the correlation? I have not mentioned that the correlation energy is always obtained variational in fact you just now saw that we did perturbative correlation that is not variational mp to energy. However normally it is always true that if you do a correlated in a larger basis the result goes down further. It is very rare you can argue that I do a very bad Hartree-Fock and my exact Hartree-Fock is actually lower than the correlation in this bad basis because exact Hartree-Fock would improve this but m is so bad that your correlation of m may even go above exact Hartree-Fock but it is very rare that such a thing happens because then your m basis is very very poor. What I mean to say that this ordering is not clear that in a poor basis correlation energy means essentially Hartree-Fock plus correlation energy total energy will always be greater than exact Hartree-Fock or less than exact Hartree-Fock. It should be less than exact Hartree-Fock but it is not clear because your exact Hartree-Fock can be much lower. So usually m is sufficient in large that this does not happen that correlated energy is also lower than the m. Please note that when I call correlation m this means Hartree-Fock m plus correlation energy. So basically the correction in m basis. So I am adding the correction to the m basis then I am getting what I call here correlation m, correlated energy in m basis. So if m is very poor Hartree-Fock itself exact Hartree-Fock itself still may be lower than this you understand because when m is very poor because there is no variation to suggest that what will happen but usually does not happen. Usually this is the order that we always get. Nature of the function as well yes of course. Well like for example H2O3G would be a poor basis because the nature is not only that you have to have only one H2O2P but they are very poorly described by the only three Gaussians. So the nature is also very important of course otherwise most of the time we take LCAO but how am I describing the contracted Gaussian or the atomic orbit and is also an issue. You are always talking about f chi i equal to epsilon chi i. If I solve f chi i equal to epsilon chi i then it is exact Hartree-Fock that is exact Hartree-Fock. Atoms as well as molecule if I can solve the problem is you cannot solve for molecule. So we always do a m basis Routhan equation. So we expand this in m basis and we get a matrix equation. So that value that energy will be always higher than this energy. So the Hartree-Fock that we have presented to you for molecule is actually Routhan-Hartree-Fock. So you have a charge density bond order just one minute one and two electron integrals everything is in m basis. Our results they will be usually higher than the exact Hartree-Fock. Because exact Hartree-Fock is actually the same calculation Routhan calculation when m goes to infinity because then this and that becomes identical. Now my point is that when I take only an m basis I do correlation calculation the correlated energy should be by this definition should be lower because correlation energy is negative let us say it should be lower but how much lower? Does it actually cross the exact Hartree-Fock? That is a question which I cannot prove but usually our m is sufficiently good that this number goes below exact Hartree-Fock because correlation energy contribution is much more important than just the basis set contribution for saturation for Hartree-Fock to exact Hartree-Fock. So that is the point or beyond a point Hartree-Fock does not change much. So the real change comes because you are adding mp2. So then that is the reason even in a finite basis this goes down because this if m is sufficiently large this delta is very very small whereas this is large. So it will usually go down. I think this is a question of you know understanding how they really order that is a big question. How do what is exact energy? Yes I mean it is experiment but again experiment done under these conditions of theory which is zero Kelvin yes no vibronic corrections and so it is not it is still not no relativistic corrections here. So yeah I mean exact really is very difficult to say but let us say that I can do an experiment for a non relativistic Hamiltonian without any vibronic corrections I can get the electronic energy experimentally that is my exact and they are they are available. So people have vibronic correction they simply subtract it so yeah and people can do gas phase experiment to get zero Kelvin limit. More importantly this number is used as a benchmark number for all other theories in that same finite basis because at least in the m basis I can definitely say that this is an exact number in that basis you cannot get better than this number in the m basis. So if I do another theory like mp2 mp3 couple cluster some other approximate ci everything should be benchmarked against this full ci basis is same all the calculation basis is m so basis is taken out of equation. So all that you have now calculated is defining is the method so then this is the benchmark method so very often the full ci is used as a benchmark so your exact correlation energy so full ci in an m basis is used as a benchmark calculation for other approximate methods because otherwise it is exact approximate methods in the same basis that is important. So note that full ci is actually exact apart from this basis problem in so there are two different things one is number of basis another is the method itself as far as the method itself is concerned that is a form of the wave function it is exact there is nothing more to do all you need to do is to push the basis set. So if I do any other method like mp2 it is only a second order perturbation I have a neglected third order fourth order and so on so that is an approximate method if I do that in that same basis then I can compare that result against full ci and say how good is my method or later on you will see maybe even couple cluster maybe DFT density functional theory so for everything there is a benchmark required how good it is so this serves a very good benchmark full ci so full ci is often a very important method and early days of in quantum chemistry full ci used to be seen as a very important method to benchmark other approximate methods even though you will realize that full ci is not really doable because mcn is still a very large number of determinants is mcn it is very large because you have m factorial, factorial is very very very quickly it increases so very often even these many determinants are difficult to handle. So


I'm Nitin Epin. I'll be speaking about securing cross-chain communications. You'll be stuck with me because due to central actors, Columbia did not give visa to the guy who was supposed to come and present this, okay? I can't even imagine why they would cancel the visa. Imagine, you know, the business that was supposed to have been here, right? So, I'm not a technical person. I'm supposed to take a technical presentation. So, bear with me if I'm going wrong. I'll try to keep it as clear as possible. I'm on the phone with them. If there are questions at the end that I don't know the answer, I'll call them up. Those guys are very technical, okay? So, basically, even the last talk was about securing bridges and stuff like that, but let me try to make it... Why are we interested in bridges? What is making it so attractive? I think there are two things. As devs, you can see that there's zero raising 135 million, hash flow raising 25 million, no more raising 22 million. Now, from the hack side, Ronin Bridge lost 600 million last year, Womho losing 325, and Harmony Bridge as an example of losing 100 million, right? So, this is why it gathers attention. There's so much money involved. So, before I go deep into the talk, the idea is I'm going to explain just basic about the space, about bridges, cross-chain, why is it important, some of the examples out there, and then some of the hacks that happen and what caused those hacks, okay? That's the general idea of how the talk is going to go. Fundamentally, what is a blockchain? If there are people who know this out here, it's basically a ledger, and what does it store? It stores data and transactions. Data and transactions, as long as you can move them, they have value. And when they have value, there's a price, and there's an exchange, and there's a market cap.  We are only at 950 billion today. But let's assume the market cap is at 1 trillion. We had 450 billion in Bitcoin, 200 billion in Ether, 50 billion in Binance, and the rest of them make the market cap. So basically, there's value across different chains, and it's fragmented. That's why cross-chain swaps or cross-chain bridges are important. So basically, blockchains are really disparate wall gardens, wall islands of value. So you have two islands. If you can't move the assets across these islands, you can't move value across them. Imagine traveling from US to UK, and you can't use your money over there. Kind of useless, right? There's a restaurant out there who's willing to take your money in, but you don't have pound with you. You just have dollars. So that's where you need something in between, like an ATM machine, banks, or credit card processing, something like that, to move these value from one island to the other. Fundamentally, that's what a cross-chain bridge is. You have some assets or valuable stuff on one blockchain. You want to move it to another blockchain. That's a bridge. When you're doing a swap, you're exchanging a token on one blockchain for a different token on another chain. So fragmented users and value to move across chain without friction. Now, think of it that you had to do this. Let's assume that you wanted to use a Solana.  Imagine you've come to Bogota. A lot of you have come from other countries, right? Imagine going to the bank, changing money, instead of just using your credit card somewhere at your hotel or at the restaurant. DeFi is going to be very big. That's the assumption. Let's assume that all of you are assuming that with me. You're all going to replace trade via the traditional finance one day. If that is the case, this piece, cross-chain swaps, bridges, or cross-chain communication is going to be a very critical infrastructure. All right? So fundamentally, there are three things that are very important. You're moving between proprietary blockchains. Taking an example is moving Solana from an SLP standard to a Binance smart chain with a BEP-20. How about transferring assets between layer twos, between arbitram and optimism? If you want to do that today, imagine you have to take your arbitram, put it back to Ethereum. You have to wait seven days. Then you have to move it to optimism, right? That is the friction that we want to reduce with cross-chain swaps. So generally, there's an architecture for this. You are transferring information. It could be asset. It could be contract calls from one blockchain to the other. So on one side, you have a node that monitors the source chain or the original chain. We call them the validator. That transmits information from the source chain to the destination chain. In between, there are checks, and there are checks happening, you know, on requiring what is the consensus among the validators. And there is a signature. And eventually, the validator on the destination chain verifies the signature and issues in IOU. This is typically what that happens. Or the other way is you can send to a liquidity pool. You can use AMMs and do this process. So I'll now talk about the various types of bridges and the mechanisms out there. One is the proof of authority bridge, a POA bridge. You have a small set of actors that are listening to events on the source chain. They validate them and they relay this across to the destination chain. Incentivization and slashing mechanisms ensure the integrity of this thing. So the pros are that there are few validators. So it's very fast. You can easily do it. But the cons are now you've introduced trust on these few validators. There's a collusion possibility. Something very similar is a POS bridge or the proof of stake bridge. Now instead of one node, you're giving it to the person who has more number of tokens or the token balance. They do the verification and signature. What are the cons? The security depends on the price of these tokens. The next is a light client bridge. Example is a rainbow bridge. So a smart contract with an Ethereum light client functionality is deployed on near. And a smart contract with near light contract functionality is deployed on Ethereum. The verification is done by both chains, calculating the Merkel roots and verifying its headers. There's no need of a validator besides the miner for both the chains. The cons are it requires a high, it has a high implementation cost over there. It requires smart contract development to hold both the light clients on both the blockchains. So then there's an ultra light node with Oracle bridge adapters. It does not keep track of headers, but then it depends on oracles and relays. So then they can start colluding. That's also possible. The other option is we do chain bridges. Instead of validators, you have a chain out there. Now that's an elegant solution. When you take it, that's truly decentralized. There's a dedicated POS hub. Then you can't do middleware logic over there. So that's what people are trying to solve when it comes to chain bridges side chains. Again, you're connected to the main chain. All those moments happen quick, easy. But then when you want to do between other blockchains, it's not easy over there. Different kinds of bridges. There's one is a custodial bridge WBTC. WBTC is a bit go holds the custody of WBTC. The when you send BTC to get WBTC, BitGo is the custodian, a decentralized bridge or something like a wormhole. Unidirectional bridge. When you're doing WBTC, you can only send from Bitcoin to Ethereum. You can't send back on the same bridge. Wormhole or multi-chain, any swap, those were the multidirectional bridges. So fundamentally, the idea is when you're moving across these chains, there's a lock, mint and burn mechanism on how you move assets across chains. So let's assume you have to move N tokens, token Z from blockchain A to blockchain B. So what's happening is these validators, they're locking it on the source chain, on the contract on A, and they're minting a wrapped version of that on B. So eventually when it's replaced, it gets burned and it is released. The original tokens are released. The problems over here, there are problems also. It's not like it's so easy as it sounds. Okay. And the problems are, as Vitalik said, now you're dependent on the fact that nobody can change the chain on A. So even the previous speaker, she had a better graph for this, how what you put over there vanish, but the other side you got it. When you come back, your original stuff is not there. All right. So when you burn and come back, your original should be there to get any benefit out of these. We'll talk about some of the hacks that happened. All right. So the Polly hack was 2021. It was a $600 million hack. So what happened over there? The Polly hack or Polly, there was a master, you need a huge liquidity to do these things, right?  And it was based on smart contracts, large amounts for the large liquidity. The hack was possible because of the access rights through these ETH cross chain manager and ETH cross chain data. They got access because of the, you know, the bug over there. They got access. Somebody outside made their address as the owner and they just drained the funds. Wormhole hack. Here it was a little different. What happened? Again, this was this year, $325 million hack. A deprecated function was there. They updated the GitHub, but it didn't go into production by that time. The hacker knew that when they made that update, this is where the problem is. And there you go. Just use that, drain it out. It's basically, it's like you had at that point in the Wormhole case, you had issued, think of it, gold certificates. You're issuing gold certificates, hoping that there's gold under the vault. What if there's no more gold under the vault and people are coming back with those certificates? In the Wormhole case, you know, obviously that was compensated by jump crypto. This is just showing what really happened over there. The root cause was the signature was not checked. Okay. Another example is the Ronin hack. Again, 2022, $600 million hack. It's more realistically here. It was a Web 2 issue. So there are two kinds of security issues we can talk about. There's a Web 2 issue and there's a Web 3 issue. Smart contract hacks, that's a Web 3 issue. Now here, what happened was, they had kind of nine validators and four of them was with SkyMavis, the guys who developed the game. What happened? They had given the signature to the SkyMavis team a year ago, forgot to take that out. This is how, at least I read about the problem was, somebody working over there, they were given a job offer. Guy was very excited. I think they gave him three times what he was getting paid. They sent him a PDF to sign. You know, he clicked through the PDFs and the keys were gone. Now they have control of four of the nine validators and the DAO and boom, $600 million. Mostly in Ether was gone. So the funny thing here was, for close to a week, they did not even know that this was happening. At least most of the other ones, somebody trying to find it or knew about it. And here, the hackers, the funny thing was, they even shorted AXI and the wrong tokens. They got liquidated because it didn't go down. So, you know, but still money is gone. Nomad hack was something like a decision that they made. They gave up security for simplicity. Basically the light clients, they decided not to do that. When the update was done and new update was done, they could spoof transactions or fake them with drawing funds which are not theirs. And the Nomad hack was, the funny thing was, after sometime anybody could hack them. You could do it yourself. And there were the white hackers who helped to take around 36 million they received back. Total, I think, eventually the loss was 150 million. Initially it was 190, I think 36 came back. Here you go. The FAY hack, $80 million hack, that was a re-entrancy bug. Now these are all very, nowadays re-entrancy, like it's like four years ago, you didn't know about the re-entrancy or most people didn't know. But nowadays, you have to know what were the previous hacks. So knowing about these things helped. The Beanstalk hack, again, here it was flash loans were used to accumulate the governance protocol. And then once he got enough tokens, he just put a proposal saying that they're donating funds to the Ukraine in a war and took off with all the collateral. So I'm just explaining the different kinds of hacks here. So I don't know who put the statement out there. So if you're trying to create a bridge between n different cryptocurrencies, there's a goo guy, I think. The complexity of that is n squared. So which means there are n more chances. So there are way more bugs that can happen over here than where you started. So some of the things that we can look over here are coding practices, right? First thing, obviously, you should know the Web 2 security stuff like social engineering, phishing, running a malware, spyware, protecting your keys. Fundamental things. You can't assume that you're in Web 3, you're forgetting all the Web 2 stuff. Definitely have to do that.  Because that's really like, I've put the exam, it's like asking your house contractor, the bank is asking them to go build your vault over there, right? You need somebody specialized.  So there's a paradigm shift that's happening. Earlier we just had one code, it was on your server. Now this is distributed, it's going around everywhere. It's a total paradigm shift. So common set of problems you should know as a developer, you should know the common set of problems like re-entrancy, integer overflow. And again, when you're trying to do an update, you know that there's a problem and you're going to do an update on a GitHub. Before it goes into production, there's a small window. You should know that the hackers out there are also waiting to tamper on that.  People have forgotten to do that and an attacker has come and taken that. Rounding errors, unsafe casting. Then there are smart wallet attacks. There's Merkel-proof mishandling. All these things could be prevented like if you're doing enough number of tests, whether it's unit functional, then formal verification, fuzzing, plenty of documentation. And then on top of that, you give it for audit. Those of you who are in the development space out here, I would seriously say consider an auditor job because most of the guys, the bridges I know, they are paying a ton of money to auditors. Despite having audit people on their team, they are running these contracts through multiple auditors. I hear right now it's $20,000 to $80,000 per week for a security audit engineer per week. So imagine there's a bridge out there or DeFi projects out there. They will need at least two months' work from at least two engineers. Very lucrative career, man. So think about it. All right. Can we stop hacks? It's like saying, can Microsoft, with all their money, can it stop going down? No, it's a hard task. There's going to be hacks. It's going to happen because projects are trying to scale speed. They're using speed to try to get users as quick as possible. So they're making decisions sometimes that it should have taken much longer. So now, but there's one thing though, the hacking of large amounts is easy maybe, but taking it out is not that easy because now you have chain analysis, elliptic and all those guys, they're hacking it.  Tornado cash is being banned. So there are a lot of things that help you, but that doesn't mean that you should not take care of your code, okay? So keep in mind, in 2013, the exchanges were being hacked. It's just that right now it's the bridges because the surface area for them to attack is very, very large. That's the main thing. Main thing is how do you mitigate these things and what is your response once this happens? When you do the authentication part, you know, do your code well, then you do audits, run bug bounties. But always remember, if you lose money on your wallet or your smart contract, the auditor is going to lose nothing. He's just going to lose his reputation. End of the, it is your project. The project is not the auditor's. So you can try to compartmentalize, you can prevent contamination. What if it happens? How do you respond quick enough? There are multiple times where these white hackers have contacted the teams out there saying that something is happening to your contract and the support staff said, oh, nothing, we are fine. And all their money was gone. I don't have those tweets with me, but you can check it out. And your monitoring systems should be quick and you should have some kind of reporting guidelines once this happened. What are you going to do as a team? How are you going to protect yourself? How are you going to bring your chain down if you can?  Because a lot of these things are centralized. So basically bridges have pros. You're bringing collateral cross-chain. You're getting scalability. You're bringing efficiency. The cons are you are introducing some form of trust. The trustless part is going away. So this space is going to grow mainly because of these things. So much money. Money has to move. And a lot of ways to attack these contracts.  I think that's it from my side. Questions? I guess everybody is being nice to me saying they think that, you know, if the guy doesn't know anything, so let's not complicate it. All right, there's somebody out there. I can try to answer some of the things, but if I can't, I'll tell you guys. I'll take your name. I'll contact the guys who've made the protocol and get back to you for sure. I was wondering if you have any recommended training resources for developers specifically focused on security, right? How do you take developers who don't know security and be confident that they do at the other end? Got it. I think the best is first learn smart contract or Solidity from, let's say, Patrick Collins is a YouTube video. He's a web app university is out there. And then Securium is a good place. They have a boot camp and they have a lot of tests, quizzes and stuff, which they go through all the possible problems that you can face. And there are multiple challenges out there. EtherNOT, there's EtherNOT. There are plenty like that. I forgot each of the names where I can get it out for you, okay? That's a start. Learn Solidity. Next thing is go to Securium and find out how they do. And that's, as I said, there are at least 10 jobs for every one security guy out there, especially in the Web 3 space. And it's remote. You can stay at your home. You can be on the beach. You can do it too. The perspective was pretty bleak when you talked about like end to end, like the end to end complexity of like bridging all kinds of bridges. But then we were here at the Ethereum DevCon and we know like the roll-ups are the way to scale. So we want to have actually a thousand of these L2s, right? So what is your perspective on that? How are we going to solve this issue? So initially for any technology, so how many exchanges are being hacked today? They're not, you know, you don't see Coinbase or Binance being hacked on a daily basis, right? But if it was 2013, literally every exchange was being hacked, right? Everybody. So same thing with DeFi or Bridges. It's new. When did Bridges come into being? It's pretty much only two years or one year and everybody, and you have multiple layer one blockchains out there, and you're trying to connect to these things. What are the number of years of experience to somebody who's coding this, right? Majority of it is one to two years.  So those problems will be solved. It's like the buggy and the car, okay? The car was initially was a bad technology, was slower than the horse, but technology improves. They fix those kinks. The wheels were flying off. You flatten the roads. You make better wheels. You make better shafts. All those will be fixed. So the future is not bleak. The future is really good. More money will come in. As devs, there's going to be plenty of opportunity. Now as the project owner, who's doing one of these, it's really dicey right now because you don't want to get hacked. I know the route of protocol guys. They're everyday scared.  Like everybody wants to attack you. If your TVL is low, you know that all the great hackers are not so interested in your TVL which is low. They're thinking of high capital efficiency by keeping the TVL low. That's how they are trying to do it. Hi. Can you hear me? Yeah, I can. Okay, great. So I was wondering on that scenario that you described that the developer, he got a contract, like a BDF contract with a virus. And took over his nine keys and therefore the bridge. Like Jesus Christ, that just made my palm sweat as you spoke about that. So I would like to understand a bit more about that case. Like he had the keys in his computer, just lying around there. How did the hacker extract that? It's there in the computer. It's not like he had it in his hand. It's there in the computer. You're giving access literally. So imagine you get these PDFs. Nowadays you can sign your PDF. It was a job offer, right? So somehow they knew that this was the guy so they could get into the system. They just have to get into the system because it's connected, right? A job offer came. Well, you know, they did interviews. They were formal interviews done. All those, it looked very legit.  You just click on it. Click the signs. You're not expecting it, right? So there it's not really your Web 2, Web 3, that's a problem. It's a Web 2 that has failed. So both have to be considered today. But do you feel like there's something he could have done to protect those keys better so like not keeping them on the computer, for example? Definitely. Definitely. They shouldn't have given it to a guy who had four validators with him. Guys, thank you so much. Time is up, so I'm getting down.


Can you name for me one high-profile person or entity from a liberal ideology who you have censored and what particular action you took? Senator, I can get you a list of some more of this, but there are certainly many examples that do your democratic colleagues object to when when Checker might label something as false that they disagree with or Not able to I get that I get that I just want to be clear. I'm just asking you if you can name for me One high-profile liberal person or company who you've censored. I understand that You're saying that there are complaints on both sides, but I just I just want one name of one person or one entity Um Senator I need to I need to think about it and and and get you more of a list But but there are certainly many many issues on both sides of the aisle where people think we are we are making content moderation decisions that they disagree with I got that and I think everybody on this call could agree that they could identify at least Five maybe ten maybe more high-profile conservative examples. What about you mr. Dorsey? Well, we can we can give a more exhaustive list, but again, we don't have an understanding of Accounts, but I'm not asking for an exhaustive list. I'm asking for a single example one There's one individual one entity anyone we've we've taken action on tweets from members of the house for election misinformation Can you identify any example? Yes with two two democratic To two democratic Congress people on the letter names, but I'll get those those names. Yeah, great great. Mr. Pekai, how about you? Senator I'll give specific examples, but let me step back. We don't censor we have moderation policies which we apply Equally to give you an example I get that I use the word censor as a term of art there and I define that term and and I don't Again, I'm not asking for a comprehensive list. I want to name any name We have we have you know turned down ads from priorities USA from vice president Biden's campaign We have had compliance issues with world socialist Review, which is a left-leaning publication We can give you several examples, but for example, then we have a graphic content policy You don't allow for ads which show graphic violin content in those ads And we have taken down ads on both sides of the campaign and I gave you a couple of examples


It was Boxing Day. It was a public holiday. It was my dad's birthday as well as being Dave's birthday too, which given that it was only eight weeks since Dave and Sarah's wedding, you know, I was still in the back of my mind, not that I thought about it a lot, but in the back of my mind it was still this really good feeling of knowing that someone who we'd known for so long, who'd been alone for so long, had had this wedding and it was a really great event and things like that. So on that particular Boxing Day to get the call to say that there'd been a crash just at the end of my shift, a crash up on the mountain, you know, I headed up there knowing that that's what my job was to do without having any idea that it was Dave that was involved. But yeah, when I got there, when I was told that the rider had been had passed away, had been killed, obviously that was knowing that it was a day after Christmas for a start, was thinking, well that's going to be terrible for some family for this to happen. Then finding out it was the rider's birthday on that day, that day that happened, I think, well that's even worse, it's getting, the thing's getting worse and worse and when I saw Dave's name, as I, as I wrote about it at the time I saw the name and thought, oh well he's got the same name as Dave, but it wasn't till later when I did the checks and look closer at it and just went, I can't believe it's, I can't believe it's Dave, I can't believe that this great fairy tale that we've just been a part of has just gone crash and then yeah obviously to find out that Sarah was pregnant as well was was even worse and so yeah going over to her place that afternoon and and holding a hand and stuff was an experience I never ever want to go through again without a doubt. Personally I don't think we'll have success on the road until our road tells zero and that's based on my own experience as I said before about the people, the trauma that I've seen and people who I've seen affected by it. I've seen people with iPads set up on their dashboard watching a movie while they're driving especially if they're in, if they know they're going to hit peak hour traffic or slow traffic they think that that's okay because they're only going to be traveling at 20 kms an hour or something but you know what about that motorcycle that's filtering up beside you when you change lanes and you didn't notice because you're watching a movie on an iPad on your dashboard I mean that's um you can kill, still kill someone regardless of the fact that your average speed might only be 10 to 20 kilometers an hour it can still happen.


Now, see how my horse, she has her nose out. You can do this. You're more like this. Get low.  Ron's doing it. Just passenger riding with your headlight. So thinking, like I might think about the little wagon. See that buckboard wagon across the street? Well, I'm a little wiggly. So now I might use my rain and leg to get her on my line. But then, once she finds my line, give her slack. The other thing, and Ron can watch this too, put your reins in one hand. Reach up, rub the neck. Reach back, rub their hunch. And be careful there. And get to where you've got your feet and your irons and your stirrups. But get to where we can really sort of sit back. I mean, don't overdo it, right? But get to where you could lean forward, stand up and reach forward. Reach back. Change hands. Now, you're more like this. Be more like, let you have to let. And you're thinking, well, she's going to go on top of my horse, and my horse will kick your horse. But there you go. Let your rain down more. Good. You need what? And those ears will flop. You want the floppy ears. You want the floppy ears. Because that means what? You're relaxing. Yep. So then reach back. Reach forward. Ron can reach way back. He can reach way forward. You're going to have to hold your hands up in the air all the time. Sometimes we'll put our hand on their neck. There you go. So this is more by rubbing her, you know, like you're doing and getting out of the saddle. Take one hand. I love this one. Be careful. Reach back here. I'll watch out for you. Reach back here and torso twist. Can you get to this other side? You got it. You totally have it. And the other side. Why would you do that? Well, yeah. So you're, yeah. So you know, for some horses, when I reach back here, they think they're going to get hit. But this goes back to the flage lesson, conveying a clear idea. If a horse knows you're not going to hurt him, Sidney, you can kind of work on riding with a headlight on your chest. Point it to where you want to go.  Be sure. You can always come around near our horses and intermingle. You're okay. Just bend. Come near. And then turn and go off on your own. Look up. Give him a little, give him a little rain. It's a lot of bit for him. There. There you go. Now, Brenda, I kind of left you for a little bit, but now you can work on it. Your rains are much better. Look at her ears flop. So Sidney, look at me. You're doing awesome. Good. Relax a little, soften the rain. Reach over, rub his neck a little with one hand. You have to let yourself settle in and relax. Come towards me. Let him hook onto my horse a little bit. Like let him look at my horse and come on over there. Relax your body. Look at Brenda. Brenda is sitting so relaxed right now. Almost like a mushy, like we're not showing right now, right? So we don't have to sit like this. So sort of settle in like a mushy, just relax in there. Longer rain. Now you're kind of clenching your jaw slightly, or you know what I mean? Relax. Look at me. Smile. There you go. That's your horse. So what I'm going to do everybody is just, that looks good, Ellie. See how he's settling in, licking and chewing. Watch this now. Rain's in one hand. Just be part of this horse. Don't regulate these horses with the rains. Let these horses explore, and you're like, I'm just with them for the ride. Reach back. Reach forward. Yeah. Eyes up. Your eyes are hard and rigid, but we want to ride with soft, open eyes.  Brenda could do it. So Brenda, this one, do it not right now, but when you're ready. Can you let go? Settle in there. There she, now grab your reins. Yep. There. See? So letting them go. Just because you dropped the rain, that doesn't mean you're going to lose the horse, right? They might roll. We're so, we're, hi, what are you doing here? Oh, I thought you were crashing the clinic. No, I'm kidding. Right. Okay. Oh, shoot. So I think, Ellie, you're working pretty good. The biggest thing for you is, and you did it, is to get your eyes up, open your field of vision. We can do a lesson later on on it too. I know I didn't directly address, you wanted, you wanted a little supervision on that, but I thought it looked pretty good. Can we get him to relax equal to how much we can get him up and going? So nice job, Brenda. Now you're cheating, because you're supposed to drop the rain on the neck. How's Sydney? Sydney's here. Good. Relax. Sydney, settle in. Now look at me once. Look at me. Come towards me. Sit like you're just, you barely have a backbone, and you're just, just sink in there. Ron's getting a longer rain. He's getting it. Good. Settle in more. Now you're kind of like, settle in.  You know, if all you get out of the clinic today is how to get your horses to relax, that's a pretty valuable thing.


Hi everyone, Joe for Jaspy's case of breaks.com coming at you with a quick little break here 2023 top museum collection baseball one box Random division break number 12 with a free spot giveaway Big thanks to Eric and Alan for getting in on this appreciate. Yeah Let's see who wins that extra spot between the both of you roll it randomize it two and a two for the hard way name on top gets it one two three and Four after four times Eric with the extra spot now. Let's randomize you a division after five times two and a three names and divisions one two three four and five Eric down to Eric and two and a three five times for the divisions one two three Three four and fifth and final time. All right, so this is how it shakes out for the both of you Eric you have the NL East Alan NL West and the AL East Eric you have the rest AL central NL central AL West Let's order these by divisions Now, I know Alan's in the chat, but I don't know if Eric is any trades Pretty rare in divisions, but we'll give it its its do while we're waiting We had three box remaining from that case that we popped open yesterday We also did a few loose boxes in the early run of these divisions But let's see which we're gonna do which one we're gonna do one two three four five six on the dice roll And it's one top box Set these for some other time Set these aside over here Don't think any talk of any trades So a trade window going once trade window going twice and TWC trade window closed so that list right there remains the same. Let's get it officially printed out Let's see what we got in here boys and girls Well, just boys in this break There Good luck guys. I guess to the audience Let's see what we got here. Good luck. Good luck. Obviously all cards ship If you're looking for some more baseball ladies and gentlemen Brand new release today 2023 tops inception baseball drop today. Go to Jasper's case breaks calm. We've got a break the first break is Those teams have been grouped into a random number block. We're halfway through on that Once we get that done we can pop open a fresh full case Hopefully pull some monsters out of there Let's go on a monster hunt boys and girls. Thank you Jasper's case breaks calm So let's see what we have here We've got a no Tani 23 out of 150 it'll be for the AL West Eric Still waiting on where where he's gonna call home for the next Decade I guess there's his teammate Zack Neto your rising star in the league we hope Austin Riley to 299 for the NL East That's for Eric and the Braves alright your four hits Behind rookie Matt McClain is gonna be Nice a Joey vato-vato four out of five with the MLB hologram sticker right there as well that looks like KV one two two seven eight zero Now if you go to MLB comm slash authentication We'll be able to punch in those series of letters and numbers You can see exactly where that jersey comes from. That's really nice And out of five and under get the train whistle who has the Reds and El Central Eric clicks Eric All aboard the big hit Express All right, nice start. There's Andre Doss remember that old State Farm commercial. What year is it? And that reveals a Bobby Dal that 29 out of 35 meaningful material For the AL East that is for Alan Red Sox making some moves Trading wave Redugo getting some pitching back behind Kyle Schwerber is a Quad relic Wow Mookie bets Mike trout Julio Rodriguez and Ronald Acuna Jr. That's a nice quartet right there 31 out of 99 So we'll do a randomizer on that Between the four different teams and see what division gets so what team gets selected and the next final It should be the auto behind Raphael Devers and it's Tyler Freeman rookie auto for the Guardian 50 out of 50 Cleveland this is for you AL Central that is for Eric nice. So Dodgers NL West that's Alan AL West Eric AL West Eric NL East Alan So looks like looks like even odds there So let's go back to some new dice new list so Dodgers angels Mariners and the Atlanta Braves You dice roll team on top after 11 gets it one two three four five six Think Atlanta. Oh, is it is Lannis Eric. Sorry. I was gonna ALE. So maybe Eric does have the odds on his side. Well, good luck. Anyway, Alan five into six 11 times we're at six already seven eight nine ten And 11th and final time goes to Seattle Al West that's for Eric with that extra spot that he won. Sorry Alan, but congrats Eric That's a that's a great quartet of outfielders here. Although Mookie Betts is now a second baseman Back to the original Mookie Betts days There you go gang a one box break random division of museum collection baseball in the books. Thanks for watching I'm Joe. I'll see you next time for the next break. Bye. Bye