This is Don Rowan in Oropal at Norwich University and we're doing the economic diversity and the build environment and it's a panel discussion with a number of experts that are going to be discussing this for the next hour. And so we're looking to hope that you'll join us and enjoy the show.  Yeah, I did. That was such a surprise. The only version of my face that any of you need is this one that you're going to have. I mean, in fact, I don't recommend looking at it. I recommend looking at this. Sorry, my photography is better than my personal beauty. Does this work? Thank you all. It's a real honor to be here. And to be on this esteemed panel, I'm going to do my best to make four hopefully relatively brief points and to try to, in some ways, incorporate, I think, a few points and lessons to piggyback on my four esteemed colleagues. So yeah, my name is Alex Shaffer and I'm probably the least practically useful of the panelists, unfortunately. So hopefully I will have some things that are useful to say. And because I read too much Buzzfeed, I've made four points. So this is a listicle for all of you young generation who like the listicle. This is a listicle. So the first point is if we're going to talk about economic diversity in the built environment in the United States of America, then that can't just be a question about class that has to incorporate race at the foundational level. There isn't, you know, clearly the country is a whole with very few exceptions. Class and race are so intertwined in this country that it's just, you know, my apologies and I recognize that it's changed. It's not the way that it once was, but races for, you know, currently and for the foreseeable future are an integral part of this conversation. So race can be an even more difficult conversation to have in the United States than class, but it's one that absolutely has to happen. But in order to have that conversation and I think to do it well, and especially to think about the relationship between race, class, and built environment, we need to do a little bit of what Sarah asked, which is to sort of broaden our, I think, the geographic frame of reference. I wrote it down. We're going to enlarge our geographic frame of reference. So one of the main ways that we think about race and class and the environment in the United States is through the lens of segregation. And Gina mentioned a lot of the kind of key tools like redlining that were used to segregate the American metropolis. So one of the biggest challenges, though, is that segregation isn't still around in the United States. And many of the places that were the kind of key geographies, the key areas of segregation still feel the impacts on a day to day basis of all of the things that happened 50, even 100 years ago. But at the same time, segregation has changed. Suburbia is not what suburbia once was. The geography of our metropolis has just gotten so much bigger. So many people of color have moved out of older inner city neighborhoods, looking for the American dream, looking for housing, moving very far away. So if you really want to understand segregation in most metropolises in the United States, you need to get in your car from wherever you feel like segregation happened in the center city and drive for an hour in any variety of different directions. And then you will start to see the larger metropolis. Community of color have been moving out to suburbs for a very long time in the United States. And just because there's a new geography doesn't mean that people are still segregated. So this is what I talk about as re-segregation. So the book you see here, there's actually a 30% discount voucher on my website. But Barbara's book is probably cheaper and better than mine. So it all comes out in the watch. So this is a big argument that I make about the San Francisco Bay Area. So this is a dot density map that you will see what segregation looked like in the 1970s. And the African-American community is represented in the yellow dots. And you can see that there's just really intense clustering. If you were African-American in the San Francisco Bay Area in 1970, there were a handful of neighborhoods in the entire region of many millions of people in which you could rest your head.  And you can see some of the spaces right here. This is East Oakland and West Oakland. This is the small industrial city of Richmond. There's a handful of neighborhoods in San Francisco. There's a kind of forgot-about places in suburbia. Again, there's a myth of segregation as always being an urban, a central city thing, when in fact there are always been important African-American and other communities of color in suburban spaces often attached to industry. So this is East Palo Alto here, not too far from Silicon Valley. There's some places out in Stockton out in here. And this is a pretty big distance. So from this city of Stockton out to San Francisco, it's about 75 miles and about two hours in traffic. So this creates a kind of mental map of what we think about segregation as something being trapped. So this is a set of mental maps that were done in Los Angeles in 1970. And so the map on the left is a composite of middle-class white folks from the San Fernando Valley about what was their city, what was their region, where did they go, where did they work, where did they, where was their space? The map on the right is a composite map of Latino families in Boyle Heights in East LA. And you can see, again, a much smaller space that felt like, these were the spaces that felt like they were their spaces. And so this has given us an understanding of segregation of what I like to think of as ghetto as segregation. There was about being trapped. You physically, at the threat of violence for cultural reasons, legal reasons, all sorts of reasons, if you were a person of color during this era, just simply couldn't leave. It was dangerous at times, not even just to try to live in a place, but even to sort of circulate in these spaces. So the things have changed a lot of ways. So this is a simple map, a graph, not much of a data guy, but every once in a while you come across a map that really says something. So the line in red is the African American population of the city of the county of San Francisco, and the city and the county of San Francisco the same. And the line below is the African American population of San Joaquin County, which is out here in the east. And so you can see San Francisco has gone from an African American population about 14%, at its height to less than 3% now. And the population of San Joaquin County, there are now more African Americans in San Joaquin County than there are in San Francisco County. I can show you another map in here. So these, if you look at this map, these communities out in this area, in southern Solano County, in eastern Contra Costa County in the Bay Area, now have collectively more African American residents than all of Richmond and Oakland, right? Then Richmond, which were the heart of the black community in the Bay Area at the time. And so I could talk about the Filipino community in the same way. I could talk about Southeast Asians from Cambodia and Vietnam, from Laos, among refugees who came out for the war. We could talk about Latinos in a similar way. Again, different geographies, but the same process of migrating out from central city locations to suburban places for a whole slew of different reasons. Sometimes because the neighborhoods are gentrifying. Sometimes because people are being evicted. Sometimes it's because it's an opportunity to buy a house. And people want to buy a house, they want peace and quiet, a home with a swimming pool. It's the American dream. I mean, simply because people are moving to suburbs that isn't unusual or weird. Why I call it resegregation is that this map that you see is a map of foreclosures. And so if you want to find the foreclosures, the San Francisco, California, the Bay Area, which is a region in total about this region that you're seeing is about nine or 10 million people, right? We are the richest metropolis in the United States of America. You can make an argument that the San Francisco Bay Area is the richest region in the world and perhaps the richest region in history. And we're also famously very progressive, supposedly. So, but we were one of the centers of the 2008 foreclosure crisis. And almost all of the foreclosures happen not in San Francisco or in Oakland or in center cities, but far deep in these suburbs that many people in San Francisco have never been to. Right? Places that are 50 miles away, 75 miles away. Where all of these communities that you see that are highlighted with the highest foreclosure rates, all of these communities are majority non-mike. We're talking about cities between 50 and 150, 200,000 people. This is the city of Stockton, right? So, we're talking about people who have moved out to suburbs facing high rates of foreclosure. With foreclosure came fiscal crisis, right? The property taxes that we pay in most places in the place like California pay for schools and roads and sewers and parks, right? The largest municipal bankruptcy in the history of the United States was the city of Vallejo until the city of Stockton, which is larger when bankrupt a couple years later. So, in all of these places, communities of color now have seen, again, it's not the same type of being trapped segregation that we saw, but you're still dealing with very unequal suburbia. So, it's not about suburbs versus cities, but about different experiences and different types of suburbia. If you go into the inner ring suburbs in the Bay Area, these places right here that I'm talking about in the center where I grew up here in Marin County, here's where all your computers come from, right? These places have the opposite experience. So, in Palo Alto, home of Stanford University, right on the edge of Silicon Valley, had a foreclosure rate of five foreclosures for every 100,000 people. Patterson, which went from a city of about 1,000 people in an old farm town to a city of about 25,000 people, again, majority non-white, 5,000 foreclosures for every 100,000 people. That's a thousand times difference. And so, essentially, is we went from creating a region which had inequality based on city versus suburb, we now have a situation where we have unequal suburbia. That when it was finally time for people of color to have the opportunity for the suburban dream, that suburban dream was not provided at the same level and the same quality and the same degree of security that it was provided to my parents. So, the class trajectory that my family went through, if father grew up in New York City, again, the grandchildren of immigrants moving through this American class hierarchy as, you know, Jews became white and moved to the suburb and we had all of those privileges. Well, when the suburban door was open to communities of color, the same quality of suburbia was not there. And there's a whole set of reasons why it's not there. But the point I want to make here is that, again, you've got to think about race and you've got to alter your geography. The geography of the American metropolis is not the same as it was. Now, but this is the problem, this is the challenge in understanding this, is that just because suburbia is now really, has changed and segregation hasn't changed, it doesn't mean that old fashioned forms of segregation are gone. You need to think about things with a both and attitude. Either or is a very kind of 20th century way of thinking, but since you're all like, some of you are even born in this millennia, which is terrifying or maybe almost, right? Anybody born in 2000 in the room? Oh my God. So, again, old fashioned segregation, your grandparents' version or your great grandparents' version of segregation still exists in many places in the United States at the same time as this new 21st century kind of what I think of as mobile segregation. I call it re-segregation for various political reasons, but you could also think of it as segregation 2.0 or a new form of segregation. So that's the first point that I want to make. The second point, which I think builds really well on a lot of people's perspective is that I want you to think that at the core, it's not just about code or about policies. It's got to be about the politics. If you want, what most of my book is about is not actually about re-segregation. It's about how in the richest and supposedly most progressive place in the United States that we allowed this to happen. We knew 50 years ago that this process was beginning. We had lots of good plans, lots of good planners, tons of good designs, and just at the end of the day couldn't get it together to make it happen. And when I talk about politics, I'm not just talking about red versus blue Democrats and Republicans. I'm not just talking about what presidents do or Congress people or local government officials or even people who've worked for the government. I'm talking about the full set of politics. All of those coalitions, all of those power dynamics, all of those sets of relations. I'm talking about neighbor on neighbor politics. The way that you as an individual relate to your homeless neighbor is politics. That's not just humans on humans. That forms politics, right? It can be as simple as like relationship with global corporations like Subway, which has, I looked it up, 25,000 stores, 22,000 stores in 111 countries. I've been to, I think, more than my share, right? So you need to think about that broader politics. Because again, we always have lots of really good ideas but to get to the point where you can upscale them or where subsidies are being pushed in one way or another where things become possible is because of politics, not just because of the types of code. Again, in the book, one of the big things that I argue about is that essentially we weren't able to pull together the type of effective politics that we need. And so this is one of the things that I want to encourage people to think about is there a somewhat of a different way of thinking about different types of politics? The end of the day, housing is something that we collectively produce that everybody needs or perhaps shelter. I really appreciate the kind of thinking about shelter and not just about housing. But I think we can come to a consensus in this room about the need for housing. We may disagree vehemently about how to build a litter. You might want one kind of house and you might want another kind of house. But we need to start thinking about the fact that the end of the day, right? The politics of housing are about coming to an agreement. Other issues in our society like war or abortion are not about coming to an agreement. Eric about drawing lawns in the sand and you may have one side and I'm on the other. And we're not trying to come up with a reasonable solution or effective politics. It's about holding the line. But in housing, again, we have such a dysfunctional housing system despite the fact that almost everybody needs or wants a house. And so again, I include all sorts of actors. Again, people like banks.   The second, a third point, which relates to the second, first point, and again, I think plays a lot off what Dave showed, is to go beyond kind of models of good housing. Because what makes good housing for me is not what makes good housing for you. One of the biggest problems with various other eras of housing is that we always had this kind of one size fits all. I mean, I love the spirit of the modernist era of really trying to build mass housing for the masses that there were so many sort of sins by architects and other planners and designers, assuming that there was one type of housing for different people. So the goal is, for me, is again, to be not, it's not about deciding which of those models is better and being a lot less judgmental and trying to figure out ways to make all as many forms of housing secure, right, about reducing vulnerabilities, about reducing risk regardless of the type, tenure type, or the design type, or the location. And so let me give you an example, right? So one of the things that we used to think that, for instance, home ownership was better because home ownership was more secure. In between 2007 and 2010, 10 million homes in United States were foreclosed. There's only about 130 million housing units or something like that in the United States, maybe 150 now, something maximum. So we're talking about, I don't know, somewhere between five and 8% of all the structures, low-loan, all the owned structures. So there is no sort of inherently secure form of tenure. Any type of house can burn down, can be knocked down. You can be dispossessed of any type of home in the United States, whether it's foreclosure or eviction or code violations or natural disaster or fire, you can always, they're always in security and we need to be start paying attention to finding ways of securing everything and not simply about finding this sort of ideal form of tenure. And that includes also kind of some of the urban and rural divides. And one of the big political problems we have in the United States is that people assume that there's no sort of shared political interest between people who live in different lifestyles. That somehow I live in rural Vermont and I wanna live a particular way versus I live in Boston or New York or in the big city and some, but no, everybody lives in some sort of home and there's some basic understandings. There's ways that we can create, I think, a better politics around reducing vulnerability. And so this is one of the things that I've been working on with some colleagues in Oakland is trying to develop a new form of public policy analysis around housing vulnerability. Most of the analysis we do in the state of California around housing has to do with needs assessment. We try to figure out how many different types of houses at different income levels we need to build and then we never build them, right? And one of the reasons why we never build them is that everybody is scared.  And so nobody can pull together to really be able to produce the new type of housing because at the end of the day, try to convince somebody that the new house building, being built on the corner, is gonna somehow benefit. So you already have a home. So housing vulnerability analysis, we've got a pilot study in Oakland, you can go to housingvulnerability.org and start to see the contours of what we're developing. It's trying to figure out a way that we can start paying attention to vulnerability. How do we protect people and preserve existing housing in part so that we can produce a new politics that's capable of upscaling the types of production? Whether again, it's the big scale interventions, the genome works along whether it's some of the small scale interventions that you're seeing from the other two folks. And as one final point, I do wanna say that one of the ways of building this kind of new politics involves a certain degree for restorative justice. Now this map, this picture you see, I saw a seat pleasant. So this is about Kevin Durant and the Golden State Warriors. This is a picture taken in Oakland. Now in my opinion, the Golden State Warriors do not owe anybody an apology for being so good. Sorry if there's Celtic fans or whatever else they're all, you know. But the Golden State Warriors actually do owe the city of Oakland an apology for the way that they have left the city and just again, not for actively leaving but for the way of doing it, right? This is taken on a BART platform where Oscar Grant was killed in 2009, right? So BART as an agency, this is the Bay Area Repertrain System does owe a certain amount of apologies. So one of the problems we have, I think, of creating a new politics is that so many of the institutions that we're a part of, whether it's not this university but other universities that I've been part of, whether it's institutions like architecture or planning, whether it's public agencies, whether it's big developers or banks, so much of people's lack of faith in the politics of urbanization and housing and development comes from the fact that we've watched all of this injustice happen for such a long period of time and so nobody trusts anybody. Nobody trusts that at the end of the day you're not gonna get done because we've made a lot of promises. Architecture, planning, development, we've made a lot of promises to a lot of people over a long period of time and at the end of the day haven't been able to produce. And I do think that there's gonna have to be a certain kind of acknowledgement of that history, right? Again, Gina mentioned, give you that long history. People know their history.  People didn't wake up yesterday and so everybody's going, oh yeah, this is all wonderful, let's all band together. In order to get some of that new politics, I think there's gonna have to be some, we're sort of just, some act of just acknowledging, hey yeah, listen, you screwed up. As a planner, as an academic, I can raise my hand as a white suburbanite, I can raise my hand, I can acknowledge all of the ways that the community's either, not necessarily me, I wasn't even alive when a lot of this was done, I can still own that history and I think that's gonna be really important. You've gotta build some new faith in that new type of politics. I think that means us, brings us to the end. Don't try to answer this down or do we want to push it? No, let's say that. This is it. First I'd like to thank you all for this, huh? Yes. Yes. So I'd like to thank you all for such an amazing show, that was amazing. And I'd like to, we all give the lecture committee and Taulia and, so we'll get into some questions, but the first question is for everyone to add to you, you brought up the point that we're such an affluent society, where the United Nations ranks the U.S. in the top 15 wealthiest nations in the world. And our economic model is based on growth and in particular, growth of affluence. So does that model work to solve these problems ultimately or do we need a new model to solve some of these issues? It's not a problem. It's not a problem. I'm going to do the classic move and like twist the question around. So my answer to this would be, I'm not really a believer that we actually have a model. So there's not a model, there's just, that the economy is a very complex thing. And I think the most important thing that we need to do is to stop talking about the economy as if it's some sort of one big thing. There are economies. So the economy of housing is not the same as the economy of energy, which is not the same as the economy of food, right? So I'm a hardcore capitalist when it comes to the economy of beer. I think beer has been, beer is the only functional economy we have in America. I don't think there's a single person in this room who doesn't have access to beer, all the beer that they can eat, it comes at the right price, in the right location. We have an immense amount of innovation, we have massive global beer corporations and all sorts of small micro-brew corporations and they all function well. You have certain degrees of government oversight in the right way, in the right place, whether it's purity, whether it's sale of the miners, public spaces, alcoholism is in support, you have nonprofit sector involved, every way, again, it's a whole massive specific economy. So I think the beer economy is working really well and the housing economy really sucks. And so the key for me in some ways is to, if you talk about growth versus degrowth or you use the C word, capitalism, and you talk about whatever other variations that are kind of coming, you immediately get into these kind of political ideological fights that have cursed the 19th and 20th century. So what I believe, what I would argue for is to start talking about the economy of specific things. Because each, you know, sets, it's not just an industry, right? We also have, housing is not an industry, yes, it is an industry, but it is a much bigger economy that involves social connections that people have, emotional connections, cultural relationships to housing. We can talk about that within the larger economies. We need to start separating now. Some of our economies need to grow. Our housing economy does need to grow. Other aspects of our economy probably could stand to shrink. Some of them we need to focus on just kind of keeping them stable. But the key I think is, and this is really important, I don't think we've done enough in the world of the built environment is to insist that the economies of the built environment are different and they can't just be reduced to the larger economy. So I hope that's not too much of a punty redirection. It seems like part of the question is, maybe does capitalism work? I mean, that's, you know, capitalism is about growing, you gotta keep growing and keep making more money. And I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with that, except for the way we work now is these externalities are not paid for. So we're using environmental resources that everybody's suffering for them being used and money being made off them. But we're not getting paid back for those things that we're losing. And, you know, my point of the final slide about how it's so easy to take care of people's minimal needs and how much we're losing at the top of that pyramid for where we can get back from those people. I mean, that's growth at the top of the pyramid that we can get back that we're losing because we're not paying for the externality of just disposing of these humans. So I don't think it's necessarily the growth is the problem. I think that externalities perhaps are the problem that we're getting things for free and we're disposing of things that we're not paying for. So I'm a big supporter of a minimum income, minimum survival income. And I kind of wonder what a capitalist system would do with all the skills of people like this to provide housing and security for people if society was required to make sure everybody was housed and was safe. I think that we could make this stuff happen pretty easily because the skills are here. It's definitely worth it. I want everybody to answer the question. Can you say the question again? Was there not in there? Well, just as such an affluent society, such an affluent country, our economic model is based on growth and affluent and growing affluent. So does that model still work to solve some of these issues? Is there another model? Yeah, I think that that's a really hard question. For me, it's hard to separate affluence from race. And so, if you're talking about affluence and people that have affluence helping say underserved neighborhoods to grow, that's usually in the hands of one race versus and or one class, right? So if you have lots of brown people and people of lesser means, what they think about every day is not necessarily about how I can use my money to save better society. They're thinking about, right, how can I pay the rent? How can I buy groceries for my family? I think that folks who live in these underserved communities, the youth are probably thinking, you know, how can I use my money to buy the things or to be affluent, right? I want the shoes and the seekers and the jewelry and all of that. And so, certainly talking about affluence and the model for improving the community, that's just a hard thing for me to even think about how to separate those two. And I'll say one more thing. It's interesting having some affluence and being African-American because you still have the same exact challenges, right? In terms of access to opportunity, in terms of people's preconceived notions about who you are or how you live, I wind up a lot having people think certain things of me because of my skin color and nothing else about my background. So that's part of why I'm in this space in terms of community development work. I'm using my affluence to help people who don't have as much as I do. And so helping and working in communities and providing support to people and letting them know that just because you're brown doesn't mean you can't do it, I'll use that. Sure, I'll try. And Sarah, I wanna hear your thoughts on this too. I'll just add that I think that we sort of talk collectively in this country is that there's a trust in the market, but the market has never operated as a shared thing that everyone has equal access to. And so we can't act like, okay, well today, we're gonna start, we're gonna start doing this right. And it doesn't get to start today. And so that's part of our challenge is that we've got, I think all of our presentations touched on this on some level, but there are these, I really do think that reparations is a conversation we need to be having very explicitly at universities. We're doing this at UVA, but also in our urban planning and in our cities, like how do we reflect on the game never being fair and never being equal for so long. And then also, how do we make better choices today? So I've been, our school is going to a racial equity auditing process because there's so many structural inequities that aren't even just in the money, but are actually in, to Gina's point, people are hired left if they have non-anglo-sounding names and people, I mean, our racism is so embedded in every decision we make that the game is fixed. And so that's gonna continue to be a problem that's not only about the economy as a numeric thing, but actually also about the way we make all of these choices as a collective that have very real economic effects. Sarah, do you wanna add anything? I'm sorry. Yes, I love listening to you guys talk about this, thinking about models and growth. Of course, then it makes me think about capitalism, which I appreciated Alex's derailing from commenting straight on an opinion about capitalism. To me, one of the biggest risks of what people write about and talk about right now in terms of thinking about everything in a cost-benefit analysis or in terms of dollars or the kind of financial logic or so-called neoliberal movement that we're all living in is the deterioration on our imaginations to think about solutions, systems, alternatives, no, we can't, is for his project possible for more people. Love to open this conversation up to the wider public. Yes, Carl? Thank you for these phenomenal presentations and there's a lot of really productive overlap too. I actually wanna pick up on what Sarah was just talking about and this does connect to some of what Alex explored also and I'm gonna use the imagination theme here. The questions of power and equity came up and frankly, I don't see how we can really get to the issue of the proper and just and rational distribution of power if we don't confront capitalism. Capitalism is the mode that has enabled an intense concentration of global wealth which is itself a problem but it also is a kind of stranded asset. I mean, we have so many challenges globally and we can't get at the assets because this is now held by capitalist entities which exercise enormous power. So on the question of sort of the urban development issue couldn't we take Alex's invitation to kind of designate what's appropriate for capitalist expansion and what isn't and say that the city for example should be not the site for capitalist investment strategies because there's no housing security as long as it is possible for massive development entities to create all kinds of mechanisms to alter housing, to shape housing for the wealthy, to make it a property ownership for the purpose of having extra assets. I mean, I think I heard something about New York now, Manhattan having 30% non occupancy, something like that, it's a high number. That can't be solved by the kind of the grassroots synthesizing of strategies and working together. That is a macro question. So I'll sort of, I think there is a place where the antagonism between what I would call a decommodified socialist platform and maybe some form of capitalism which is pretty insistent, have to fight it out. Well, it's hard for me to think about it on a macro level but I have seen in cities for example where back to politics where certain politicians decide that in order to develop buildings, they look at two or three different issues. One is the rights affordable housing component I was talking earlier about inclusionary zoning, to make sure that in these developments where they're building high end and luxury apartments that they also have to build apartments that are affordable, some politicians will institute things like a certain number of units, only a certain number of units can be allocated for investment so that investors that again build these high end apartments aren't allowed or condos aren't allowed to only sell them off to investors so that they're not real occupants for people who really live in that city and pay taxes to that city and work in that city. So there are ways that at least some politicians on a local level and a state level decide they're going to try to influence capitalism by putting in various rules and regulations to sort of help solve that problem. I think if we're thinking about it on a macro level and having to go up a level higher in terms of cities versus states versus the federal government, maybe that's where you deal with it on a macro level but obviously we're not in a position to do that now when we have billionaires right here in the federal government. I do think there's an interesting push towards community benefit agreement models not just at the sort of traditional level that they've been done for the last decade but actually especially as we're in a school of architecture a push towards models that are thinking about public infrastructure differently so like the founders of the High Line in New York have come out publicly to say we really wish we'd ask the question first what do our neighbors need and really structured our plan based on that which would have been a very different plan. I think it probably still would have been a really pretty park but thinking about the investments and the policies and the politics around the High Line would have been fundamentally different if we were answering your question with that in mind and then so the 11th Street Bridge project park in D.C. is a really interesting model where they have said all right we wanna take that we wanna repurpose this piece of sort of non-functional infrastructure and make it into a park but we know that the way that these things play out is that a lot of people in the Anacostia neighborhood will be displaced and we cannot have that epically so instead we're gonna raise $50 million to start a fund to make sure that people get to stay in their homes we're gonna do this in a community driven way and then only after we've really found the models to kind of keep people having the amount of choice that they want in their own neighborhood to have the capacity to do what they want and make their own choices then we can start raising money for this really pretty bridge and so I think there are models out there that are starting to form but they're definitely still the exception and not the goal. So yeah, I would just offer probably two points of relationship to a great question. Again, I would push away from the use of the term capitalism and the reason why for me is that this is just as much about feudalism as it is about capitalism. I mean, if you look at the big cities right now the major players are often sovereign wealth funds Singapore, Qatar, Dubai, it's inherited wealth. So it's not, maybe it was capitalist when it was earned in the 19th century but now it's like daddy's money like grandpa's money and it's all about inherited wealth which is a form of a century feudal rule. Like you have it because you inherited because your daddy had it or your grandpa had it and that's where the, that's where the, if you want to look at the real racial quality you're talking about wealth which is all about who's daddy and again, speaking of the current situation at the White House is about someone doing inherited land from his dad and so that's where the law of development company comes from and so again, again, the C word just doesn't work because it doesn't get into, again, these old and inherited kind of very feudal relationships. The aristocracy in Europe basically fused with the capitalist class to become this kind of joint thing so it just doesn't work as much. Again, I would much rather talk about greed. I would rather talk about power or elites. These to me are much more useful categories than imagining an economic system which again, I don't think describes that much and part of that has to do with the fact that again the year is not housing, they're really different systems and we need to start talking about things in really different ways and that's, so if you're starting to talk about how to regulate this kind of growing feudal relationships between real, especially urban real estate and the economic system that produces and owns housing then it becomes, again, I think there's, you start to see how all of these complex, different actors have to be involved both in crafting the larger movement to make change but also in the codes, I mean it's easy to say to look at, again, the big crisis of vacant homes and another thing to then develop the types of regulations and policies that can deal with it because we have a big problem, we often sort of, we have a lot of baby and bathwater problems, right? We try to create policies to deal with one particular social problem when we create all of these externalities on top of it. Airbnb, for instance, can be a lifeline for a lot of low income people who rent rooms in their houses as a way of keeping it afloat. It can also be a massive source of exploitation. You have short-term rentals or a massive challenge. Airbnb as a corporation is a different challenge. They're not, they're related but they're not the same. And so I think, again, when you start to get down into the specific economies and away from these kind of bigger ideological constructs around capitalism, I think actually the types of coalitions, the types of fine-grained political solutions become possible or become more possible. Again, again, the other thing about it is that when you take on the weight of history, you realize that the situation we're dealing with is hundreds of years in the making. And to undo it is, you know, we are the Jews wandering in the desert right now. Like maybe those kids, maybe all of them that born in 2000 will see the light, will be around to see the solution but I don't plan on being, I don't think I'm gonna be on the planet and I doubt any of us really are gonna be around when this solution arises. But we've lost the ability as a society to have any sort of long-term vision down the road. And maybe, again, maybe one of the things that is important about climate change as a discourse that at least it's allowing us to sort of, people are starting to think a little bit more long-term. Again, I think the climate change discourse needs a lot of sort of racial justice inserted in it. But again, some of the new leaders that you're seeing come from these communities and are speaking in this way. So maybe we're starting to see that long-term vision. How's the environment or the need for affordable houses is high? Should we prioritize building large amounts of affordable housing for the lowest cost or building affordable housing whose design truly fits the community? Can I answer that one? Yeah. Um, I think you can do both. The example that I showed, can I actually put that back on the screen if you don't mind? So this building between this and this. So this project, when we first started designing it, we used actually an architect, Tordi Gallo's partners. They are a, who you all might know from being architectural students. They do work all over the world actually. And they do a lot of high-end development. But they've been also in the affordable housing space for a long time. When we started this project in particular, we said, you know, we wanna design something that is affordable, that has affordable materials, but that doesn't look like it. And so again, when I show folks this picture, they actually think these, like this gray, they think that is metal panels, right? But that's cementitious, which is a lot less expensive than metal panels. And I actually had a contractor. I needed an estimate for a new building I was building. And I basically said, use this building as an example. The building cost came in two and a half times what this building cost, because visually the architect designed in, or I'm sorry, the contractor estimated metal panels and all kinds of expensive things. But this building did not cost what it could have cost if you used traditionally, you know, traditional materials that you would use in a high-end apartment building. So you can do both. You can provide people with quality housing and have it be affordable. Like I said, there are people who live here actually that make no income, that make zero income. And in the affordable housing business, you also have a utility allowance. And so when you make zero income, this property actually winds up writing you a check. So when you pay your utilities for $70 and you make no income, basically the property pays you $70 so you can pay your utilities. So it's possible. I wanted to thank you all for your work and your commitment to different racial minorities and disadvantaged populations. I think the question that I'm interested in asking is how our education model can be more linked to learning how to design in a way that comes from these people because frankly it isn't for the most part what we learn. We learn and we work in a project that is ours and we make the decisions. So I'm wondering what thoughts you have on how that sort of authorship from the community can actually be brought into how we're learning. I like your question. Yeah, I think we've got a lot of nods here. Almost like we planted you. Right, right. So I spend a lot of time teaching interdisciplinary applied classes so they're typically three hour credit hours but often people wish they were more. So it's a practical like studio-ish sort of a thing. And we work in partnership with community groups. So I spent a lot of my time actually writing grants for these projects because as I see my role at the university as a resource mobilizer so I can spend some of my time writing a grant that actually pays my partners to come and collaborate. We are working right now and the university is considering an institute called the Equity Institute for the redress of inequity through community engaged scholarship which would allow this to have an infrastructure where knowledge, because often like I am completely in charge, right? I'm in charge not only of my students experience but also of my partnerships, partners experience if I'm the one with the grant. So even that is an imperfect system. So universities have been really bad at sharing power. It's not a thing we do well. And research is often about like those with the credentials getting to know all the things and ask all the questions. So it's not a simple thing but I spend a lot of my time working with my students to understand how we can all be better partners. And so that takes, we do some implicit bias training. We do, we link that with structural inequity because you can't sort of do one without the other. We acknowledge sort of power distributions that are in unbalance and try to take time to do that. We do listening sessions all on our own before we get with our partner so that we can be the best partners that we can be. And then often the project doesn't look exactly like we thought it would, right? And so there's a lot of like giving up on the sort of traditional conception of beauty which I think is another thing that's really hard for our fields to do is to sort of acknowledge that actually maybe beauty is in the sort of shared power. Beauty is in the feeling of co-ownership, right? Beauty is in the wealth redistribution. And that's not a, you know, that's, we're working on that as a field. Like we've got a ways to go. So I think there's a lot of kind of fundamental challenges but honestly it will change because students like yourself are asking these questions. And if I could sort of upscale this point really quickly, I think the other thing that's really important that we don't do enough of in the United States is just learn at a young age how anything in the built environment is actually made. I mean, I don't know, I went to public school in California maybe y'all are from Vermont and went to different public schools where you learn how housing is built or how sewage systems work or how the energy systems work or how the water systems work or the food systems but I didn't, right? You learn about Congress, you learn about the Constitution, you learn about the history but you don't learn about anything outside. Look, walk outside, look around you and ask at any point in your education system you learn about anything that got there how anything got made. And we just don't learn it and then we have all these problems with the fact that the system isn't equitable and doesn't work but it's like we don't actually teach it. And so that to me is a huge part. And I think a lot of it goes beyond the get expertise I think one of the biggest things you can do here is is there a way for the architecture school to extend this sort of understanding of housing and the built environment out into the rest of the campus out into the rest of the community so that people around here understand where everything came from and how it all got there and how it's all built. Too much of it we have to learn on our own we learn through our professions or we don't learn until we become professional or until we get elected to public office and then all of a sudden are responsible for caring for it. So that has to be, again to me learning about the built environment is just as important as math and reading and science and all of the subjects that we learned in school and there just needs to be a bigger emphasis on education. If you look at other societies that I think that are better at it they learn more as kids about how everything gets made. Just wanted to offer one thing I learned from working for a software company for a number of years is the notion of agile development and scrum and these are ways that software companies are working a lot these days where instead of doing what they call a waterfall process which is basically figuring out the whole problem and the solution and taking years to figure out this complex solution they start out really small ask the stakeholders what the problem is create a really small solution and learn from that and then iterate and you're always iterating with the stakeholders so I think, I just noticed that that I think it's really applicable to the architectural process so I just take a look there's a lot of stuff on the web about agile development and there's a book called Story Mapping which is a really great exercise and it'd be great to run an architecture studio based on that process. I was going to think this is somewhat a follow-up Can you speak a little bit more? Yes, as a follow-up what would you, I'm trying to articulate this but knowing that there are these young people here who will be going in and very junior positions and firms when they get out of school what questions can they ask what actions can they take at that point in their life before they have the power of leadership of a firm or the financing to finance affordable housing what can they do as junior professionals and what would you advise them? That's great. So Ray, did you hear that question? A little bit but that's okay I'll listen to the answers. Okay, well let me tell you what it was because I feel like you're going to have good things to say so it was for all of the students that are going to graduate and go into the world before they are running firms and making decisions what questions can they ask to be a part of this change? It was a follow-up to what Alex was saying and I think in many ways my answer would be his plea which is the questions should be about the curiosity of the built environment the curiosity of the landscapes around you asking questions about how to learn about people's histories embedded and all the things you look at how to talk to people you might not normally talk to so that you can collect a wider set of stories about how those places are made so I think that's a place to start in terms of just a kind of emphasis or focus on a certain kind of built environment history Can they have agency in a firm? Do you think in any way and change as a junior person? So I've been lucky to be a part of a thing called Design Futures which is a student leadership forum and I've been amazed as I watch young people funded by their universities to come and be a part of a sort of collective of young people and the people doing this work that are working with them to sort of ask hard questions about how design and social justice relate directly and then they go and they are often the people that the firms want so they're easily getting jobs because they're feisty and they're not going to give up and they're hard workers and so I think a lot of the design field is actually keen and aware that some of the students that are most sort of socially and civically minded are also the students that they want to hire and they're the ones doing dynamic design build projects with partners they're the ones that have really impressive like I was learning about your freedom by design work earlier those experiences where you're actually a part of something and you're making change are incredibly transformational and you learn things that you don't learn when you're just learning about the Constitution to go back to Alex's point so I think what's nice about that is that now that that's sort of a scene you know truth in the hiring world it's giving our younger generations the platform to be heard and actually to suggest change and these firms that are you know the sort of larger the Gales and the Perkins and Wills you know the Genslers they want to be seen as the firms doing this sort of work and so they actually want to hear those voices and they want to give them platforms to take to be to be the drivers of the change because often you know us old fogies know that actually we don't know how to solve some of these problems and the way that we learned didn't give us those skills and so I actually think there's a fair amount if you want to be in that space there's like you know room and encouragement and we just have to keep also really working to you know to educate those in power to make this space too I want to give all of you the opportunity to just talk about how we can be helping are you to empower them to help deal with this? Well in my work I usually wind up working with the same one or two or three architectural firms and I do that because they have the same mission in terms of the work I do and so there are many architectural firms out there that specialize say in luxury housing and the way they perform community engagement is very different than the architects I work with so I would say two things for young people certainly if you're passionate about working in communities you find a firm that is also mission driven and believes in what you believe in but on the flip side if you like to be a pain in the ass but you're still a mission driven why not go work for one of those big high end luxury apartment developers and kick their butts and make them do the work the way the work should be done not ignoring the community not just going and throwing up the story building but doing true and community engagement the last question here well I just have a comment to ask that I think there needs to be more communication between the generations of professionals and students because there are so many students that are driven and passionate about what we're talking about now and sustainability and there's people that are curious and there's professionals out there that know so much about this and I think there needs to be more communication between people like this and in February I went to a conference about sustainability by Efficiency of the Month and there were I had to apply for a scholarship to get an admission fee covered and there were 40 scholarships to be applied for I saw about 8 students there at the whole conference for the 2 days and I found that about the scholarship from about the student camp and I just think that if there was more communication between professionals about that to mention students there would have been a lot more people okay well I have a question so do you often have professionals come and speak in the classroom like do case studies besides the symposium do you have that because I see that a lot at universities where you know folks professionals come in with case studies and you can talk about all the issues and that opens up a lot of communication to have people from different disciplines come in and talk to you I think that way you stay engaged with a variety of professional networks do you want to ask me I mean the only piece of advice that I would give you or say in this question is just don't need to be aware of getting advice from old folks like me is that a lot of us have spent way too long playing the game and just assume that this is the way the world you know this is the way the world works that's just a load of horse puppy right the game that you see out there was created by humans you know it didn't come down from Monhigh like we whatever it is the economy or the politics or the housing situation we made it and every generation remakes it in some ways in their own way and you have to sort of stop economics of something might not work but they can be fixed, they can be changed economics is not Newtonian laws of physics yeah you drop an apple it will kind of do the same thing every time housing economics has changed every development you built right so that's the kind of thing it's project by project piece by piece and so you know as ISD once said don't hit the player hit the game you can fix the game is what has to be fixed and I think that's one of the key things that you can do at an early time look it out, it's going to do a hussy of quartets right but my last word I guess would be it's all about experience I mean I love getting older and I feel like I'm finally at this comfort point where I feel like I know enough and I also know that that I don't know and I'm comfortable with that as well so I'm not going around being frustrated with the way things are and just trying to blaze a trail without any knowledge behind me so I just say get a lot of experiences even if you get a bad message you can question it, that's learning just as well as learning something from somebody who has a better idea and it takes time, it will take time to become creative and be able to be nimble just like playing a guitar, you can play a chord but to be creative with that takes an experience so enjoy the process and experience a lot cool I want to continue this conversation but move it out into the atrium where we have a beautiful reception but I want to thank this incredible panel


happening to the new season. Sydney FC not helped by entry, as Bratton's been robbed. Here's Borrello for the Wanderers. It's Brenda Borrello, and Retmi needed, perhaps, to get that touch, just to make sure. Here's a chance for Anthony Casarres, and it's pushed clear by Thomas, still alive, though, through the woods. Wanderers just pinned in there, own defensive third for the moment. It's a pretty good ball from Bratton. Robin Mackin behind, still back, beaten away by Thomas, and a touch of a fortune, perhaps, with the rebound off for Malfatato, but Sydney have started the second half. Cove sensing that their team is about to make a charge. However, James Donicky has cocked up possession. It's Cassini, Yankee! Maybe he should have squared it up for Griffith. She opted to go himself. Only flashed it wide, but Marc Rodin likes the determination that he showed. Still going the full back. Side of his Crippage, first-time ball! What a chance for Nersmi! Still thread in the needle. Here's Robin Mackin, Merchelot. Quickly shut the gates, as quickly as it opened. Now the Wanderers will spring forward. It's Miloš Nicovic. They've got a man left who's Cassini, Yankee. Is this it for the Wanderers? Still Yankee, and still! Wallace up, here's Yazbek, deflected, made it awkward for Thomas. Here's Mackin. And Marcelo got across to make the block. Lolli cutting inside as he loves to do. Floating it in, here's a big chance! It's Robin Mackinside, the Bob Segatich! And he puts it into the cove. Lolli trying to slal him his way through, but there's no way there, and Nuhoff is chopped down by Bretton. That's going to be a yellow card, and the Derby is going to end in Akrameni, as we thought it might. There's Push and Chubb, there are arms being raised. This is the frustration of one side.


What's poppin people welcome back to another video, so we're gonna be doing the food chain fishing challenge today Everybody's been asking about it. We've been filming a lot of live bait videos So today we're gonna be finding a bunch of worms little grubs anything that we can catch like smaller panfish bluegill on and Then we're gonna go out and try to catch some really big fish I'm excited about we got my boy a dub back there in the woods, and then we got my boy first day behind the camera I'll show you guys them in a second you guys have been asking for the collab so we're back at it today But I actually just found the first Little worm right here.  He's so small. This is the thing around here. There's not really any soil It's kind of like sandy dirt or it's like sandy gravelly. We're in the low country. So we're in low country It's like gravel. Yeah, it's weird show a does pretty face man Everybody's gonna ask and see a dub back on the bed.  So y'all are digging for some worms out here trying to catch some big old fish shouting wherever the heck we are We're out in the middle of nowhere. It's gonna be fun But if you guys want to check out their channels, I'll link them down below Also, if you guys are new to the channel hit that subscribe button hit the notification bell I'll say the like button if you guys have been enjoying the content Let's keep on digging and see what we can find right here. See it's like really sandy out here And right here looks like probably the best and that was the first little shovel And I got that little tiny worm. That's not really going to do much. So we're gonna need a lot more So let's keep on digging see if we can find some more fish See if we can find some more bait. Why did I say fish? Come on. Hey, what are you doing dude? Dude, if this was my house, I'd have 5,000 worms by now dude. There's just no dirt. This is not dirt It's like sand. We're not at the beach. We're in the woods All right, so we found something that's different and it's gonna have to work because we don't have much All right, so look at this You got us a beetle. It's actually dead. Is he dead? Whoo Okay, we put them in there either way We're just gonna find everything that we can really whatever we find anything that lives us a little smaller.  Do you like have to like pick through the dirt or something?  Look at that.   I have like a little pile of dirt just kind of Sitting and he wasn't even wiggling and moving around too much This is like good looking stuff. There's the best best stuff that we've kind of dug in Look what I got. Uh-oh. Why are they like that? It's so skinny, but why are they like that? Oh, I found another one. No. Oh, we found a jackpot boys. Look at that thing I don't even know if you can put that on the hook. I don't know There's another one. No, are they all that small? What is up with that? What is like the actual name for these? These are not like regular nightcrawlies Unhealthy red worms. I mean it'll do the trick boys. So get a boy. Get a boy.  I Am not grabbing that. Come on Adam.  Yeah, so instead of brushing down you have to brush up.   It's actually gonna be cast netting for his video So I told him I was like let me throw in there a few times before it cast net scares them all away So we're gonna see I'm gonna try to catch one or two and I'm gonna let them kind of try and see if we can catch So these worms are just so small first little worm. This looks actually a little big I filmed a YB video with Bradley on the river. This man did not listen He got the biggest hook that he could possibly get for bluegill So in turn Brad though, you know in turn Brad's in turn Brad and turn Brad So we're gonna thread this worm up on this hook. It's so small. Oh Yeah, baby. Oh, oh, okay. Oh Yeah Well, that is what we got right there boys That is so small the sad part is is really cloudy today so it's hard for me to see and I Don't want him to steal my worm.  Come on.  I Called that one. Hey, should I try the beetle? Yeah, try it. Should I try the might as well? Why do we have to get the smallest worms that we could know like they like won't even go on the hook Like I'm actually impressed that we got worms that small I feel bad But you know the Beatles gotta gotta go on the hook Bro, do you think I was gonna work look at him dude? I feel so sorry.   That is huge. There's actually two of them There's another one. Oh my god, bro. I thought that was a tilapia.  Oh, definitely. There's the other one right there Look at that dude. Gosh, man. That's some live bait right there That's probably the biggest bugle I've ever seen. Alright guys, we just Adam cast and edited two freaking massive bluegill One of them is actually really big. We're gonna go ahead and fill up the live. Well Get this ready. Actually, let me come show you guys real quick.  Look at that compared to my foot, bro. It's almost as big as my foot It's like fat, too. It's not just that's ridiculous. Those are two solid catches right there. Oh Yeah, a bass. It's a bass. All right, I'm gonna get the water in here. I don't want these fish to die Dude, look at that That is insane man. I can't believe that.  I've never seen anything like that Okay Now let's go hook up the aerator. Oh boy Got the aerator running. I'll get this thing in the live. Well, it's just a basic 12 volt Air pump. It's the power bubble.  We're good to go Let's see if they can catch some more. We went to another little spot. Yeah, right there. You can see By the way, Fletcher came back. Oh, what's going on guys? Oh about five for that. I just gotta let it sink all the way. Oh Oh, it's a tilapia Dude, hey, we got the cut bait now boy Are you rolling or no? Yeah, I'm rolling Dude, that's dumb. That's a giant one. That's a good cut bait right there, man. That's a perfect one for cut bait Perfect that high in protein High in protein, baby. Every time every time we get to tilapia. That was like high in protein high in protein, baby Honestly, we're Oh my god We're at this marina We're gonna put out some lines for some bass and some catfish and see what we catch. So it's gonna be fun Let's go ahead and get the supplies down to the dock See if we can catch something big All right, so this is actually the next day we It was just not happening for us to be completely honest with you So we're gonna be going back out trying to catch some big fish and we're gonna see what happens today So we're gonna rig up our poles again, and hopefully we're gonna catch a big one today It's gonna be a two-day fishing challenge boys. All right, so we are about to rig up A piece of cut bait right here. Just a little blue reel We grew up on the circle hook I hope so we're gonna catch a big one, man through yesterday was very brutal I'm just ready to catch a big one today. All right, here we go guys. We're gonna Skip this bad boy Skip that thing way up in there. Now it's just time. We're just gonna wait. Oh Oh, baby. Oh, baby. Yes, sir. Yeah. Yeah, he's on it Oh Oh, it is a big one Want to get me a dove? Yeah, man, I got you. I got our first catfish boys. So what we've been waiting on Not bad. Not bad Oh, yeah, baby Oh, let's go. Check that one out. That is awesome right away, man. Thank you. Yeah, bro. Let's go boys.  Let's go. Look, we got some we got some company over there. Whoo Got a big catfish How's it going? Thank you Something really sharp underneath them. Yeah Look at that right there first cat of the day. Yeah, this is my favorite thing about these catfish is the colors on them Can you guys see that I was gonna add all three of them. I can I can see a little bit. It's like a goldish glow Yeah, I know for sure. That's an awesome cat. He's not as big. He's not even five pounds He's probably like maybe four go ahead and release him over here. We're gonna get right back in there This is awesome. Oh, Mike's on. What what? Oh, what? That was big, wasn't it? I don't know what that was What was it big? Yeah, dude, that was probably a big bass, bro Yeah, his deck. Okay. I barely I barely set the oh Is he crooked speaking to the fan, bro? Yeah, I love releasing the fish right here I know look look at the colors on this fish, man. Like you just look at that. That's so cool I love this man. Something different something new. I'm always bass fishing kicking their catfish TV, baby Cat energy Let's go. There she goes, baby. All right. Adub's got to pull out too. So let's see if he you might have one, bro That's what happened to me and flutcher every time Adub said he's got one. Oh, yeah, dude. He's all the way over there get him Why'd you set the hook? I didn't I like kind of pulled into it, bro I don't even have a circle hook dude. It's a texas rig hook What are you doing? Do that fish how far did he go from there all the way? Dude, you need this hook the circle looks like gonna work Put the camera on me. Okay. Look I live bait fish with texas rig hooks, but I put it under a bobber I've never actually done it with a texas rig weight like this. I was just lazy and I didn't want to retie And uh, I missed catfish. So now we're gonna actually go put on the correct thing All right. Come on. Adub show them what we're putting on today because I got I got us three pieces I'm gonna put on the tail. You can either put on the head or the middle I want the head because I just lost the head. So that's why I want to try it again But I gotta give me a different hook man because I just don't yeah, I missed it Sometimes I have this We're out of bait. That's another problem. You gotta catch something.  Is that what you want me to do?  We're gonna take a little break. Adub's gonna be casting his Look Adub do this instant. So not right here, but just skip it all the way as far back as you can I don't know if I can skip ahead very well, bro There you go. That wasn't bad. We'll look out. They're under there All right, me and flutcher be back. We're gonna we're gonna go get some goodies You think of another eight eight tilapia count? Yeah Hopefully eight tilapia. Unless I have the castest now the better I'm about to just throw it on you Well, your first cast is the most important so you might knock it out right here Oh That's like professional champ. That's good Yeah, go for it. Go on. Oh, I had lines, dude You got one. He does got one at the new spot. Oh, look at him running. It's wild Get it, Adub. He's gone, bro. What the heck? He's gone Yeah, he's on there He came off Adub, what do you got to say about it, man? This has been tough Dude, I'm sick and tired of it. Okay. Look, I love bass fishing. Okay. I love fishing in general But you know what catfish I can't stand him anymore because I just can't even hook one man can't hook one Oh, yeah Yo, that thing is Is he saw it? Bro, you might have got a baby. Is he on? Yeah, dude Oh, it's a bat.  It was on the head. What? I'm standing on one spot Easy easy He's about three pounds, dude He's stuck in. That's so crazy. Oh, he's only got one on No way It's a bass. Yeah, big mouth. Dude, it's a big mouth. Literally a bluegill head. What?   He literally catches one. I've been trying this for two days, man That's crazy. He's only got one eye There he goes. You just got to give him a little push sometime Jintzel guy Walk over there and grab that pull is just gone. I'm like finally finally remind me So we have our bait right here and we're gonna get started and put one on her hook.  Oh, that's a big one. Ain't it? Is that a big one? Oh, it's a bass. No On cut bait Here you want to you want to bring him right here. I'll grab him bring him on the boat ramp, boy Bring him on the boat ramp Yo That's a good one. There you go Dude, that is crazy, bro. That is that is gnarly, man Maybe a high two about three pound. He could be a four, dude. That's this fish was completely filled out This could be like a four and a half Seriously, he's running at you. Oh, he's under the what? Get him a dub. Oh, is he big? Something big I think Maybe it's another bass, dude. No way Dude, it's huge.  I think I'm I'm getting you.  I don't know what it is. It's a cat. You see how he's running. It's a cat We didn't bring the net we're gonna have to put them on this side Dude, I mean it dude is so big. I can't eat.  It's so big Dude, this is a big one, dude. It's so big Oh my god, I just saw it Try not to let him go over there because my line Yeah, it's a cat Dude, it's huge. We'll bring him over here on the ramp He is not letting up at all. Look at this Yeah, why? Yeah, you can barely see Get them up here Oh, that's a good one. Oh Just drag him all the way up on the Oh, yeah Look at that thing. That's a good one. Yeah, dude. Let's go Hey, though Yes, sir. Yes, sir boys.  Oh, there it is.  No, watch this pull They're going under the dock just like my dad Dude, this one's oh This is giant If you get them down here, I can grab it. Oh my gosh.   This is It's crazy. I always bass fish, but this fight gets me dude Oh my god He's so fat. All right, here we go Sling him right up here On a loading dot That's a big boy Holy that's a good one, man. Give it to me, brother. Yo, that's what we're talking about.  You know how many nuggets you can make with it? He was tugging. I was so scared. He was going to give me in that poll Me and Fletcher, you know, we went a couple times and it was some crazy stuff. Yeah, make sure we don't have any more Yeah, I'm like watching That's so much fun. I just love it You know, I I don't get to do this much and the catch these other fish other than bass You know, I've been doing it for years and just refreshing really and you get to try new things and um Catch some big fish more importantly and get that adrenaline rush on that fight And um, he actually didn't fight as hard as Adams. I don't Adams fish was my fish was on a whole another level. He was drugged out, man. He was just running around. That was crazy Barrett 13. Look at that That's like, dude, this is two Oh, yeah, that's like 25 Dude, that's 25 26 right there. That's too long. What we got Six pounds nine ounces. Wow. Yeah, he's not as big as that one. I can't really remember how big that fish was Yeah, I think it was a nine. It was either nine or 10. I'm pretty sure it was 9.5 Yeah, it was a big catfish, man. Yeah, I don't know. All right guys beautiful catfish right there That was almost one of seven pounder. Yeah, it's super close to seven. Look at that, man.  Give me some pleasure. Yes, sir Let's get it boys


Thank you everyone. Thank you for coming back from Coffee Break. Today I want to talk about maybe this title is a little different from or much different from what you see in the schedule because I will explain later. I want to share something new, something we are doing these days, these months, these months. Some even in progress work. I want to share the ideas and have some discussion. So first of all, I would like to thank Seagate. Is that from Seagate? From Seagate. I would like to thank Seagate because this is the gap between vendors and users, right? Because Seagate produce what? Produce disks. Who use disks? The developers, architectures. The vendors deliver OpenStack to the end users. But Seagate is not here. This summit from some point is a very good place for Seagate to promote their products but they are not here. So this is the gap between vendors and users. This gap is everywhere. We are facing this gap every day. But back to this slide, I want to thank Seagate. The Seagate guy cannot be here but this work is we did it together. I want to thank Seagate. So Swift and Ceph. Swift and Ceph are both very popular in the community of OpenStack. Swift was born in the dawn of OpenStack. OpenStack was born in 2010 and Swift actually was developed, the beginning of the Swift was in 2009. Ceph draws lots of attention from the OpenStack community. Even it is not part of OpenStack but really many Stackers care about Ceph because it can provide unified storage. We can use Ceph as the glance back end, Nova back end and senior back end. It is very cool. But today I want to talk about object store. First of all, what is object store? Ceph is based on Rattles, reliable automatic distributed object store. But that object store is not what we are talking today. The object store we are talking today is object store service. It is S3 like storage. Data are stored in buckets or containers, not directories, not file systems, but buckets or containers. In Swift it is containers, in Ceph it is buckets, and in S3 it is also buckets. There are also buckets. And provide restful HTTP APIs. We can talk to this storage system using HTTP, the language of internet. Let's see how they can do this. For Swift we have proxy servers, and account servers, container servers, and object servers. So we can put object containers and containers in accounts associated with tenants if we use it in cloud environment, especially integrated with Keystone. Then in Ceph, in Ceph we use Rattles Gateway. Rattles Gateway translates the restful object APIs into the native object API, the APIs of Rattles, reliable automatic distributed object store, data object store. The communication between Rattles Gateway and Rattles cluster use sockets, but Rattles Gateway provide restful APIs to the applications. I want to say something more. In this picture, the storage nodes provide a container server, and object server. For some cases, we may want to put container server in some other servers, some other nodes, or put the container DB on SSDs, because container usually becomes the bottom neck of Swift. When I was preparing this talk, I found a very interesting thing. I want to ask anybody in this room who loves Ceph, who loves Swift. I find that the ones who like Ceph almost do not like Swift, and vice versa. The ones who like Swift do not like Ceph. This is very strange, and I think this is not very clever. Because clever ones will not argue which technology is good and which is not. They will choose technologies according to their use cases, their needs, their requirements. If we search Google, we can see many results. I do not want to repeat this. Some of them are really good. I recommend this one. This one is from Marenis, and it is a talk available on YouTube, accessible on YouTube. It is a talk on the summit in Vancouver. This was a very good talk. He shared his experience, Marenis experience in a real case with multi-region deployment. Multi-region deployment to use both Ceph and Swift, because we can deploy a multi-region storage system with Swift easily. But if we want to use block storage, we want to use block storage, block storage for Nova, block storage for Cinder, Swift cannot do that. We need to use Ceph. In this case, he used Ceph in every site. At the same time, you Swift to share some data between data centers. This is very interesting. It is a very good case to show how to choose technologies according to requirements, but not compare one with another. These are some questions. I think it is very, it is some, can show the metrics, the advantages of each other. If you want to deploy multi-region storage system, Swift is easier. Swift can also do that, but the rights can only put to one of the regions. It is not a multi-region deployment, but Swift do not provide immediate consistency. If you use Swift, you may face the problem we call eventually consistency. Some rights happened, but the risk do not get the latest variant. Risk may get results from older variants. But after a period, other risks can get the last variant. We call this eventually consistency. Especially in multi-region deployment, Swift may, if you use Swift with multi-region deployment, you may face that problem. If you want immediate consistency or strong consistency, you may use Self. Unified storage, you use Self for block storage and for Cinder for Nova for glance. That is the core thing of Self. But we can see others use the defined functions for object store service. We want to do on-flight compression, on-flight deduplication, on-flight virus scanning to scan the user uploaded data, to scan the user uploaded data. This can be implemented with Swift easily because Swift proxy or Swift is based on WCGI framework. We can put middleware into that framework. It is plugable. It is very easy. Also, Swift provides some, we call it advanced storage features. For example, object-expiring, object-varying. In fact, all of this, all of this, and there are others, all of these features are implemented with WSGI middleware. So Self is not based on WSGI because it is not written in Python. So Self, for now, he cannot provide this feature. For another question, you may take something to account how many servers are available, how many servers you can use to build a system. We know that if we want to make a distributed storage system reliable, you may need three or more nodes, three or more nodes. Actually, if you use it in production, you may need four nodes or five nodes as a list. So if you do not have many servers, if it is a small cloud, it is a small cloud, and you want to use OpenStack, and you also want to provide object storage service. So you better choose Self. You better choose Self. Okay. And there are other things. I will not list all of them. But I want to say some misunderstanding. Swift is not good at storing large objects, and Self is not good at storing small files. We often heard this, but not really. Swift support large objects with a series of APIs. Details can be found on docs.opstack.org. And for Self storing small files, this is very interesting. This is done by, this is a lab in a university, a lab in a university. In his, this is not a paper, but a report. In this report, it contains detailed information about his test.  The results show that Self can handle small files. Very good. But, but I need to say that this cluster is small. This cluster is small. So, so this, these two questions are not really because something depends on how you use your cluster, how you tune your cluster. How you tune your cluster. For example, if we do not use the APIs for large objects in Swift, okay, the performance of storing large objects are bad, but we use it correctly. We use it correctly. It is better. It is better. The performance is, we can, I did some tests. The bandwidth, the bandwidth of the proxy server, the bandwidth proxy server, 10 gigabytes, 10 gigabytes, 10 gigabytes, almost rest is limit. So, the throughput is not a problem for large objects. And let's get back to object store. Let's get back to object store. I want to talk about something more interesting. I want to talk about something more interesting. This is a picture I took this, this noon. We can see Swift stack, there was, there was a talk from Swift stack. The title is Swift is not just for open stack, but for many environments and apps. And there is something other, some numbers. This, I did not think it is based on very comprehensive investigation, but the trend, the trend shows that funding in object store, in object storage raising exponentially, raising exponentially. What really drives this money? Why do they spend this money on object storage? Object storage. Glance, provide storage for glance, obviously not, obviously not. Glance not was this money. Object store speaks the language of internet, we have talked before, the HTTP, the language of internet. So, what happened on the internet? How do you, how do you push tweets these two days? How do you push photos on Facebook these two days? I think many tens of photos, everybody, tens of photos, everybody. So, these are the real news. The real thing happens for object store, object storage. Mobile apps, social applications, Twitter, eBay, Taobao in China, and WeChat, Chinese use WeChat. Tens, even hundreds of billion images were stored on Taobao.com today. Tens of billions, or even hundreds of billions, I do not get the specific numbers. But the number of images are very, very large, are very large. So, these are the dominant workloads on internet and the dominant workloads for object storage. So, let's see this picture. Let's look at this picture. How can we modeling the real-world workloads? The real-world workloads. We may test object storage used with cost bench, with assets bench, as a bench. That will tell you the limit, the limit of your storage system, but what users care about, what customers care about. The request, the request from internet, the request from internet obeys the poison distribution, poison distribution. Let me assume that every day, you will receive 10 emails. You will receive 10 emails, but even average, every day you will receive 10 emails, but not exactly today, not exactly tomorrow, but the average number. So, this is the this is the characteristics of internet access. Request come in with obeys the poison distribution, poison distribution, but not constantly, not constantly. So, we see this picture. Namda is the expected value, expectation, the average value. Namda is the average value. We can see with the average value, Namda equals 1 equals 4 equals 10, K is the concurrency every unit time. For example, every seconds, every seconds. It is not constant, but probability. So, what is the custom really cares about? He should care about when the average number is 10 or 100 or 100. What is the average latency from a request to the response? From the request to the response. If we use a mobile app, we want to pull a picture, want to pull a photo. We cannot write it for 10 seconds or even five seconds. We cannot write, we cannot write. Actually, the mobile apps need to push the photo in one second or lower, in one second or lower. So, the latency between request and response are very important. This is what the internet applications really needs, the mobile applications really needs, but not what is the limit. What is the limit? What is I OPS, for example, I OPS request per seconds. This story system can support. Not this, but when the workload is, the average workload is, for example, 100 per second to 100 per second. What is the average latency? What is the average latency from request to response? What is the maximum latency from request to response? What is the 90% latency? What is the 80% latency? These are the real news. So, the next question is how we can get the number, this number. So, I will explain how we can get this number and how we can test a story system, object story system to get the latency. These are connective drives. Connective drives I will explain later. So, let's assume there is a mobile social application with 100,000 users. And every day, 30% of the users are active. One active user uses this app 30 times every day, and if he uses it, it will perform five reads every time he uses this app. We can think about if we to pull images from Facebook, from Twitter, and 80% of the workload happens in two hours. Maybe when you go to work or when you have lunch in the two hours. So, we can get the number. The number is 500. So, the average workload is 200 per second requests to the object story system for the images in this support for this mobile social application. And we develop a small benchmark tool with Seagate. So, I want to explain what is connective first. Connective open storage project. This is a project from Linux Foundation. It was founded this year, but connective drives was developed two years or three years ago. And this open project was launched by Linux Foundation this year. The left is connective drive. So, different from conventional drives, conventional disks, this drive do not provide block interfaces, but KV interfaces. And it will be connected via internet, via internet, not SAS or bus or FC or fiber channel or something else, but with Ethernet. Every drive will have an API address. And how to access these drives with connective libraries. So, this is very similar to what Ceph are doing. What Ceph do? Ceph, there are OSDs, object story demons. And there are libraries. Libraries perform read and write to the OSDs. And OSDs provide a KV interface. So, this is very similar, very similar. So, this is a kind of object storage device, I think. Then what is connective best swift? Connective best swift do not have... We can see the architecture here. We have a counter server, container server and object server run on a storage node. A storage node is XS6 server. It is a PC server. But for connective best swift, we still have PC servers, but the number smaller. We only use proxy servers. Actually, we run account server and container server on that nodes, on that nodes, on the proxy server nodes.  But the object server actually do not store data on the disk of the servers. But object server do not store data locally, but on connective disks. So, we do not need server here. We do not need server here. We can save a lot of servers. We can save a lot of servers. The storage density will arise. This... There is a detailed talk, detailed talk on at Nantr summit 2014. So, if you are interested in this, you can refer to this talk on YouTube. This is the environment we test. We test the connective best swift. So, we can use the benchmark tools, the benchmark tool to test the connective best swift and conventional swift. Both are okay, but the work is in progress. So, we did this first. We did this first. These are the Paco servers. And this is a connective... We call it connective box or connective board. Connective board provides 10 gigabits, 10 gigabits never access to read and write the data from these disks. And this is one unit, one U with 12 drives, every drive with four terabytes. So, the storage density is higher than servers. One Paco server, one Paco node. One Paco node can connect it to several connective board. So, in this picture, in this test, we only use one of them, but actually it can connect it to several of them. Usually, five or even 10 of them depends on your use case, depends on your workloads. So, we use a benchmark tool also run on this server, also run on this server. Generate loads that obeys the Poisson distribution. I can show a demo here. I'll try it. For this version, the load generated on one container, the name is NECO. We can see this benchmark runs. And here's a number. Here's a number. Operations outstanding on arrival. It means when these requests arrive, how many requests are not responded, are not responded. So, we can see this concurrency, this concurrency are not constant, but it is from a distribution. So, after the test, in this test, it's very short. We can run it for minutes or for hours. Every latency is about 100 milliseconds. Minus of the latency is 11, about 12 milliseconds. And the maximum latency is about 400 milliseconds. So, this is a very simple benchmark. This is a very simple benchmark. We improve it. And that demo was run on my laptop. In this environment, the object size is 1 megabyte. 1 megabytes. And we get the result of the maximum latency. The maximum latency is about 500 milliseconds. And a maximum latency is about 500 milliseconds. And average latency is about 66 milliseconds. So, the result is acceptable. We will try some parameters, some other parameters, because in real world, the object sizes are not the same. So, this is 1 megabytes. All of the objects are 1 megabytes. But in real world, the size of objects are not the same. Maybe the size is normally distributed. And the workload should be hybrid, not only reads. This only tests reads. In real world, there will not be only reads or only writes. There will be hybrid. So, this work is in progress. This work is in progress. So, we can see the key point is these numbers, these numbers as customers really know. They know how many users he will get or how many users he will have. And he can get the daily active percentage of the users. And the other numbers somehow depends on what he designed, his application. And some depends on the user, depends on the users how to use his application. But these numbers are the customers can really get. So, he used he used these numbers to get this number. And he can know how much, how much, how many things, how many things he will, he need to buy, he need to buy. And how much he need to spend on the devices and the servers. So, that's all. Thank you. Thanks. Great presentation. Have you benchmarked Seagate's Kinetic Drive with Swift? Only with Swift. You have tested with Sef? No, not with Sef. Last year's, this Vancouver Summit, the Toshiba guys were benchmarking their KV drives with... With Sef. It's pretty cool. They were actually, I mean, the KV drive from Toshiba has got 256 GB of cash in it. Yeah, maybe the interface of the devices are different. No, it's Kinetic API. I mean, the Toshiba guys haven't released it as a product, obviously. But you could take the Seagate drive and test it with Sef. Okay. Something to look into. Thank you. Again, I think this is one of the best presentations I've seen in a long time. Thank you. And I like the tool that you're creating. Is it available somewhere so we can help you? Yes, it is on GitHub. But the code on GitHub is not the latest version. Okay. I'll upload the latest code in these days, in the next month. Okay. I look forward to it. A little a few bucks. Okay. I feel bad I want to fix. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Yeah, how do we find it? You can search on GitHub for Knobz. Oh, Knobz, okay. Knobz. So this is for Knobz. Maybe the best way is to develop, to rewrite, to rewrite the Node Generator code in Cosbench or SSBench, not a standalone benchmark tool. Yeah. Correctly. Yeah. Yeah. Swift with Kinetic Drivers. Okay. It is supporting self. It is supporting self, but not, I don't know how it will perform. If you use, if you integrate it with self, connect it with self, you also need some servers. Yeah. Yeah. So it is much complex, much complex to develop a connective best self or Zen connected best Swift. This is simple, but yeah. Change these drives, connective drives. I do not know too much information about the marketing or sales, but I heard that it is not very much expensive than, it is not very much expensive. It is a little, a little more expensive than ordinary drives, but not very much. So it is, yeah.  Yes, it is based on the, yeah, yeah. It is based on the computational, the computational workload is not very high for object store. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Arm. You use arm. They use arm. So this is Intel CPUs and bridge chips are very expensive architecture, but arms are cheap. You're welcome.