Okay, well welcome to this hearing of I zoom of the local historic district commission Our purpose is to aid property owners in the town and preserving and protecting the distinctive characteristics and architecture Building some places significant in the history of Amherst. We are conducting this by a zoom Members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so by a zoom or by telephone and hyperlink to the hearing will Be posted on the town's online calendar You've got four Hearings that we're going to hear today We require one of three certificates to ensure that new construction and most alterations of exterior architectural features in the district meet requirements And so we will be reviewing those applications for those certificates And we're going to begin with mr. Malloy summarizing the application Then the applicant will speak and then members of the commission will ask questions for clarification or additional information And then we'll invite comments from and questions to the commission from members of the public so I Think we should start with mr. Malloy and the first One that's before us and I don't know the order of these Nate so yeah sure it'd be 37 Cosby av Okay, if anyone's here for any attendees here, can you raise your hand and we can move you over to panelists? I think I see I should call the meeting Do we need to do a roll call? Yeah, we'll probably show just to make it just say who's present. So Here Steve here I'm here Karen here Nicole here Rita here, and I'm here and Okay, proceed All right, yeah the the first application is for 37 Cosby. It's in addition to We'll call it an accessory structure. So there's a an existing structure and they're proposing to put a one-story addition on it You know, it does need land use permitting Which it it'll be going through so it also needs a local historic district approval the Let me just pull up I'll share my screen if this is visible for everyone Yep, so the this this rectangle right here 13 by 16 is proposed to be the new addition This is a property survey and so this is the existing accessory dwelling or accessory structure. And here's the addition Here are some drawings that had been previously approved by the zoning board. So a one-story You know new construction so cloudboard siding windows to match existing You know slow pitch to the roof It's a slap I think it's a slab or a crawl space a crawl space But you know, there's no with some vents there And an entry so you know, it's to me everything they said would match what's there. So windows roofing material siding You know kind of the massing and scale Is all pretty proportional and so Yeah, I don't really have too many comments on on it. There's a window schedule You can see they've you know, it's a they provided that With the double hung windows at the door And so You know, I think the only other thing that I you know, I was thinking about as we're looking at as I was looking at this is, you know, if there's any exterior lighting or any other site work that isn't shown on these on the plans Would be the time to talk about it in terms of, you know, vertical structures or things that would be part of the local stock district review. So although this is just about the structure, you know, we've asked, you know, if the applicant has anything they'd want to present as their Is their presentation they could go over that John, did you want to speak? Thank you everyone. Actually, I'm going to defer to my husband since he originally built that 10 page structure. And he knows into more details than I do. So, but thank you all. Thank you for coming. Do you want to speak? Well, I don't have anything to say. I will accept any questions from you and respond accordingly. So the one question that's come forward so far is, will there be any outdoor lighting? Yes. And so presently on 10 page over each egress, there is a down lighting that was approved 15 years ago. So we don't have light pollution. And so on the front entrance on 10 page is not being changed. So the site at current side entrance. We're going to reuse the site. The same copper down lighting and use it for the secondary egress. Yes. That's that's the present one. Thank you. Yes. I agree. We walked by today and it's just a charming little building. So you did a really nice job when you originally build it. So I'm pleased that the new addition will be keeping with the old with the feeling of the building that you already built. Are there other questions? I agree with Greta. I did the same. I walked in. I walked around that I felt a little bit intrusive because I felt, well, there are seven of us and probably I'm not the first. So, but it's, it's a lovely little place. We've been in this neighborhood before with other buildings in the past even years that I've been here. And I think this will nothing but add, you know, slightly enrich the neighborhood with a slightly more elaborate house. I think from other points of policy points of view as well. It's a good idea. But from our point of view, I see nothing that would cause me to hesitate to grant a certificate of appropriateness. And the posts that are in the ground right now, is that the footprint for this addition? The, the footprint for the addition is 13 by 16. One story. Yes. And you've got, you've got a couple of one by three stakes that are coming out of the ground about six feet at the corners. Is that correct? Approximately the, the outside corners. Yes. It looks like it's, it's in keeping with everything else around it. It looks like it'll be quite nice. Do we have other questions? I had a question. I too went, I went by yesterday and I thought it looked perfectly appropriate except very much the same as what Bruce said. My question was about the spacing and the amount of space on the lot for it. Nate, you alluded to some questions regarding that and I wondered what those were. So the, the owners received a special permit to build that maybe 15 or so years ago. And so to do this addition, they have to, you know, because there's a special permit on the property, they have to either modify it or do something with that permit. So there's not necessarily an issue to do it. They just have to go through the process. So, you know, it's, you know, it's something that they're working through with another planner to go to the zoning board. And it, you know, I think it can be accomplished one of two ways, but maybe one way is easier. And so they've been, you know, I don't, to me, it's not like there's an issue that it may or may not happen. It's just they have to go through that. And use permitting. I mean, it's a discretionary permit from the zoning board, but knowing that they had granted one previously and it's a smaller addition. You know, I'm not sure that there's a, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't. But that's, that's not our concerns strictly speaking, is it? I mean, probably the zoning board would be interested to know that we have no problems rather than the other way around. Right. It's not as if it's encroaching on a setback or there is some issue. In terms of that, you know, that relationship to the street or to the property line is just a matter of how it was permitted previously. If there are no further questions, then we can move to about whether to approve the certificate. Before we do, I just wanted to share my screen quickly. I know Bruce had pulled up the, the light fixture, but this is, you know, here's another, you know, view of it with a goose neck. And, you know, it's a downcast. Oh, you know, sorry, I guess I didn't click that. Is that now, is that visible now? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So here's the entry light that Bruce had been showing. And so this is, you know, Google Street View from 2011. So that shows, you know, what it, what it will look like and what it, you know, another one. It's a different fixture. It's the wrong color. Yeah. So it's, it's the only one. It's the, here's a more recent one. You know, picking up the color. Yeah. Okay. Very cute little house. Are we ready to vote? I guess I would move the certificate of appropriateness. Do we need to do anything else? We need a second.  I don't know if we would take public comment before. Of course. Yes, we should take public comment. Peggy, you're allowed to unmute yourself. Hi Peggy, your hand was raised. Okay. Can you hear me? Yes. I just wanted to reiterate what Greta said. I live on Page Street. I've spent most of my life in a lot of my life in Dublin and this is my perfect carriage house muse. It is an architectural gem. It's going to be even more so. And it's just, it adds so much pleasure to this street. Quite simply. Thank you for that comment. Do we have other? Yep. Let me just, Peggy, I'll put you back as an attendee. Hi, Jesse. Hello everyone, Jesse major. I live on 32 Cosby across from 37. Someone who just walks by this lot daily and knows the plans very well. I also have no objection. I think it'll be a great addition to 10 page. So that's all. Thanks. Thank you for coming Jesse and for making the comment. Do we have anyone else? I don't see any hands, any other hands raised. If we have a second then to Bruce's motion, we can move to a vote. I second. Okay. Betty. Yes. Steve. Yeah. Bruce. Yes. Greta. Yes. Nicole. Yes. Karen. Yes. And I say yes also. So thank you for coming to our hearing and for presenting so much information in advance. That was very helpful.  Thank you all. Thanks. The next one should be the main street Emily Dickinson museum. Yeah, they just. There's someone with a raised hand. Yeah, I'm having trouble. It's the, all right, there we are. They should be promoted to panelists shortly. Welcome to our meeting Shantia. Would you like to speak to this? We have a Jane wall should be also. Sure. There. Yes. Hi. Hi. Thank you for coming also Jane. So Mr. will begin by giving us a summary and then we'll hear your comments. Sure. I'll keep it brief. I think they have a little presentation. If they'd like, you know, the museum has been working on. Reconstructing a carriage house that had been on site of the evergreens. They've been before the historical commission and presented it. It's just like a last month. And the commission didn't, you know, they thought it was a good project and voted to support it. And so they're here now to discuss kind of that, you know, that addition. So it's a new structure. If you're looking at the evergreens to the east on the site. And it had been something that was probably in existence up until the mid 20th century. I think they'll describe that more. So it's a new structure in the Dickinson district. Again, it also you need other permitting. And that's, you know, that's happening. And review by the state. Massachusetts historical commission. So there's a process to have this, this project move forward. All right. Then we'll move to Jane and Chantia to hear your presentation. Okay, well, thank you. Thanks for giving the Emily Dickinson Museum a few minutes this afternoon to describe this project and to ask for a certificate of appropriateness. We have a, we can share a PowerPoint presentation that shows you some of the kind of photographic documentation that we have. It might be of interest to you and also some photographs of views from public ways in case you haven't had a chance to swing by. So I will begin sharing. Really, our intention is to reconstruct a 19th century carriage house that was on the property that you can see here to the east of the evergreens of you from Main Street. And our intention really is to use this new construction first as our visitor tour center and shop while a final phase of homestead restoration is underway and then ultimately use the interior as a program and education space with the exterior resembling as much as possible. The historic carriage house as it stood on once stood on the property. Because this is new construction. We've, we've opted to construct it to meet passive house standards, which are designed to conserve energy use use very little energy and have some certain differences in its construction from ordinary construction. But it's part of our part of our ongoing and increasing work to make the museum as sustainable as possible from an energy perspective while it's still compatible with the historic setting and the historic structures. So because of the museum's several designations. First as a contributing property and the Dickinson National Register District and also in the local district. And because of the fact that the State Historical Commission holds a preservation deed restriction in perpetuity on the structure and the property. You know we try as much as possible to adhere to the Secretary of the Interior standards and in this case standards for reconstruction. We don't go through all of these right now but if they're of interest in the discussion period then we can take them up. So I wanted to show you some of the documentation we've put together that gives us a sense of what the structure should look like. So here first is the Lucian Burley lithograph from 1886. And you can see here, beside the evergreens, the carriage house that perhaps has had some artistic a little bit of artistic license taken with it. We've also fairly recently come across a photograph from roughly 1875. So we know this, this photograph has to be after 1867 because of the first church is there in place. And it's probably a little bit after 1870 thinking that this photograph may have been taken from the Tower of Walker Hall on the Amherst College campus. At right, of course, is a close up, a closer view of the carriage house itself. In our own collection we came across a few snapshots. These are probably from the mid 1930s and the chief feature of these is that this is at a point where perhaps some vines are overtaking and perhaps overwhelming this little structure. Which was either fell down or was pulled down in the 1950s. And then among the other items we've put into our documentation package is a 1910 sandborn fire insurance company map. With the evergreens located at the top right of this of this sheet and then a close up that shows what at that time is being labeled a storage structure. And this fire insurance map tells us that the carriage house at this point was two stories tall with a metal roof. And then one last one last item is a page from Andrew Jackson Downing's architecture of country houses and this is a, this is a book that we know Austin Dickinson owned and referred to, and probably was a good statement to his own inclination toward Italian eight architecture as embodied in his own house but the my main purpose in sharing this with you is just the rough dimension of this of this stable, which was, is roughly the same dimension that we're, with, with the reconstruction of the carriage house. So, the carriage house we plan is 24 feet by 34 feet. It's partly based on the results of archaeology done on the site in 2001, which uncovered some, some of the footings was able to distinguish the interior space from the exterior space. This shows that there is a walkway from the evergreens shed to what was then the west door of the carriage house that's still in place to this day. The GIS site map for Amherst for the property is here and the approximate location of the carriage house the proposed location. You can see here. The existing views. Here we're looking at the northeast corner of the evergreens from the lawn between the homestead and the evergreens. And on the right is looking directly. Looking directly west from the, from the homestead and the red arrows show you the location, the archaeological location of the previously standing carriage house. Another view from a public way is from directly across Main Street on the south side of Main Street looking north. And then a view northeast towards the evergreens from, from Main Street. And then finally, a view south from Lessie Street, looking down the slope toward the evergreens with the red arrow pointing to the location of the former location and the proposed location of the carriage house and then from way over on Triangle Street looking west, which is not, the evergreens is not especially discernible in that, in that photograph. So I'd like to ask Shanti Underhagen who's our preservation management consultant to, there are just a few more slides that will help with the site plan and with materials and a few design details. Shanti, do you want to just, I'll just have you advance. You want to keep doing that? Okay, so we'll go to the next one. So, as Jane mentioned, there was archaeology in this area of the property in 2001. And in fact, there's, there's been quite a bit of archaeology across the quote campus of the museum. So a lot is known about what occurred on this property. So the carriage house, the proposed location is quite close to what we understand the location of the historic carriage house to have been. And then there was the question of how do we address getting to, to the carriage house. And as many of you, I think, recall, the path between the evergreens and the homestead was reconstructed just a couple less than a couple of years ago. So that was restored. So we had this question of how we cross the path. Could you make this full screen please. Jane, could you hit slideshow up at the top please and that will, that should do it. I've got to get my zoom bar out of the way to do that. So, in essence, we have created a site plan that uses much of the existing driveway and then extends it toward the carriage barn in a way that we, you know, anticipate historically, it would have happened. We do have some code issues in terms of access and parking. So we added a little bit of a spur to the east. You can see in the lower portion of the slide. This will be essentially a gravel driveway. We're still working through it specifically what materials, but we're working hard to avoid asphalt. Jane, anything to add on that before we move on. We specific more specifically we're aiming for some kind of stone dust and gravel combination, the path between the houses, its surface is compacted stone dust as an accessible surface and we want to try to remain as consistent within that. That appearance and that function as possible. Next slide. We've been working with EDM studio out of Unionville, Connecticut on a design we've been bashing this out for almost eight months now. Because of the commitment to a sustainable energy efficient building. We have made some decisions about materials in order to get passive house certification for the building. We believe that the materials we've chosen meet the secretary of the interior standards for reconstruction and that they recreate the appearance of what the historic materials would have looked like. And I'll go through those while we're looking at this and then there's more detail in the next slide but in essence at the lower right you see the south facade so as you approach up the driveway. You'll see two glass doors. The doors on the side will close at night so it will have the appearance that we saw on the downing sketch actually of barn barn doors that essentially close carriage doors that close. At the left east and west you see a limited number of window openings because we believe this building would not have had a huge number of window openings but given the current use or the proposed use. You know, we need a bit of light. So, there's also an entry on the lower left and the west elevation, which will be a staff entrance. And then at the rear which is, as you saw a couple of slides ago really minimally visible and that those slides by the way were just a month ago in January so it's as you all know I mean I am her significantly more vegetative for much of the year. So this upper right north elevation, we believe is essentially not visible. You'll see a dormer small dormer on the roof plane that north roof plane that will have a number of fix, excuse me, awning windows. So, in terms of materials. Let's stay on this slide Jane while I describe the materials we do have a list in the next slide but the siding is going to be something we hope called borough, which is a polymer and coal ash blend. It's going to be a ship black vertical vertical ship lap. So we'll recreate the historic appearance it's a material that holds paint substantially better and unlike the PVC products that are often used it is not subject subject to. Expansion and contraction in the same way so it's a very interesting product metal roof to match what's on the evergreens it's recycled steel and aluminum. The front entry door is a glass fiber reinforced PVC door but again that will have the ship lap doors that will close at night. The staff door in the lower left will be a plywood veneer wood frame plywood veneer with recycled urethane foam, which creates its insulative qualities. And then at the dormer upper right fiberglass casement excuse me awning windows. I'd like to go to the next slide, Jane actually to slide so there are the materials, like to talk to you about these windows because we've come up with a very, I believe creative solution for the east and west windows there are three of them. And this, this was a mountain to climb with passive house, because windows are obviously a very sensitive energy component of buildings. What we are proposing is for the energy efficient piece of this construction is a Pella traditional reserve fixed pane window. And over that we propose to do a traditional wooden storm sash six, six lights over six lights so a 12 light storm sash, which is identical to one found on the north elevation of the evergreens main block. Jane, can we go back to slides please. So you can see in the lower left the architect is showing you the wooden storm window that will overlay the frame of the Pella window. And so essentially recreate the appearance of a storm window. And that will be custom made out of wood. I think we're ready to move on beyond materials for the moment. Are you going to take this Jane or shall I, you be my guest please. Okay, so here's the current view from Main Street just standing across the street and then in the next slide. We'll show you the architects rendering of what the carriage house will look like. And that is all we have for you today. Thank you for taking time to consider this work. We're really excited it's taking quite a while with the passive house to come up with a really good approach and we're delighted and where we've landed hope you will be to very nicely planned and I'm excited about it, but I'd like to hear what the other members of the commission feel questions. Yeah, so glad you're doing this. Is it heated. Is it winterized. It is. It's going to be pretty much airtight. It's got one mechanical unit that's on your materials list. Let me just tell you what it is. So you have. So it is, it's a heat pump unit. There's only one it's on the north elevation. And it is a Mitsubishi four ton inverter heat pump. It's about 42 wide, 13 deep and 52 inches high. It's going to have a one foot high stand as they all do and it will have a concrete mounting pad. But again, on the elevation that is the least visible. It's on the exterior on the east side north side to the back side. Okay. And air conditioning too as well. Yes. That unit does both other questions. Bruce further to the line of inquiry on the heat pump. I, I think. Do I recall correctly that the, the roof would then be shedding down on top of where the heat pump outdoor compressor condenser unit is located. The reason for the question is that being the case that you might end up wanting to put a shelter over it because ice falling on that thing is not going to be a good thing to happen to it. The architect has proposed half round gutters. Not, not across both elevations as I recall Jean is it just the back elevation. So there is a, is a gutter proposed for that north elevation. I'm sorry I should have included that. Yeah, that might suffice. I'm only thinking that if you want to add this structure or protective structure to the heat out to heat pump unit, you'd be coming back again and as opposed to asking for the permission now. But it's, it's possible that that half round gutter will do the job. You might end up putting some snow. The roof has snow guards proposed also. Okay, so that's probably going to hold it on. So that's, I'm familiar with the borough just so that others in the commission know it's, it's exactly as described a very stable, durable and appropriate I think material for material that wants to look like it's was once, you know, what it looks like what a historic replication but something that isn't going to require the amount of maintenance, and we'll have the length of life so it's a good choice it's expensive, but it's a good choice. I think, and the other materials I think you're used to. The, the carriage house initially was a carriage house I suppose and this doesn't, this is not going to be a carriage house this is really more programmable more program functional space. That's correct. It's certainly above it is I looked like it was entirely going to be that. I don't care about that. Do we need, I mean, it's the function is not important to us. Right, right. Yeah, it's not really. Okay.  It's like the carriage house that serves your purpose, I think. I think that's it for me for now. I'm probably forever. Are there other questions? If not, I was going to jump in kind of the last one if there's any signs or lighting, you know anything else that could be as part, you know, incorporated into this project so this doesn't necessarily need another review so like you know if there are lights near the, any of the entryways or anything planned for that. Yes, I think we'd have, excuse me, simple down lighting by both entrances, the main entrance and the staff entrance to the West. And I believe, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe we included in the application signage at the sort of the mouth of the driveway similar to what is currently at the mouth of the homestead driveway. I think that the carriage house is going to become the main point of entry for visitors when it's, when it's occupied. At that point, we would take the signage down from the homestead while we are working on the restoration of the rear portion of the rear addition as our final phase. The image in the original submission of the sign that Jane is referring to so that's in the packet that we submit. I think in the narrative name. Yeah, I was about to share my screen. So this welcome sign would be moved, is that right? Right, that's right. And for the type of lighting, do you know what the fixture would look like? We haven't made the specific selection yet. Were the lights ever installed in the early days of electricity on this building that would be used as a model for an exterior light? I'm not sure we know that. We know that there was, you know, there was a gas lantern at the end of the walk of the main house that is at the gate between Main Street and the walk up toward the evergreens. We know electricity was introduced into the evergreens probably around 1895. The carriage house, of course, was pre, you know, it was already standing by that time. But we don't specifically know whether there were gas fixtures fixed in place or whether there was lanterns were used. In my experience working with historic buildings and trying to put exterior lights in and so forth and not get into the discussion about whether they were appropriate or not. If there's a porch or some kind of awning or something you can stick the light in as a downlight and it's hidden completely and when the light is not on it's not visible and when it is on it's simply light, it's no fixture. But you don't have any facility to any architectural embellishment that will allow you to put a light up underneath I don't suppose. Do you? We don't and as closely as we've looked at the photographic evidence we don't see any suggestion of. It's just that the building code these days if you have a door you have an exterior light and you probably also got to have an exterior electrical outlet and so forth. So the, I imagine that you're going to follow the you're going to be obliged to follow the building code in those two regards. The exterior outlet is sufficiently unobtrusive thing that I don't think anybody would care certain or even probably notice but the light something else. I know we had a bit of a discussion on the planning board with the lights on the Jones library recently and and the the topic related to preserving the lights that were now that's a building from the 20s not from the 19th century. So they were using exterior lights. No, I think when when in the 1890s you would not. I don't think electricity was an electric lighting was so evolved that they would stick it outside at that point of probably take a few years before that happened at the Jones though they were doing that and we and they were kind of bulbous lamps that were. They didn't comply at all with the downcast lighting requirements so there was a discussion as to whether it was whether we should obligate them to. And, and you're probably involved in that because you're still involved in the library I think but, but here we don't really have the same kind of conversation necessarily because it wasn't those lights so I think if the lighting is put there. Probably we would like to see it downcast or some fixture that that wasn't a bright sparkly bowl because it's, I mean at the library eventually we thought well maybe the bright sparkly bulbs probably be good because a there's many quite a few of them and be it was you know in a. A brighter vital part of town but down here it's a fairly quiet part of town and and having a bright light sitting in the middle of it would probably be a little this. Awkward looking maybe so all along long long diet tribe just to suggest that for the light that you need to you will be obligated to put there. Probably something like I don't know the goose neck light fixture that we saw on the previous accident strikes me as something that would perhaps be applicable but something certainly from a downcast lighting point of view and something that's not. To a graciously modern. Yeah, I was, I rather like that goose neck. Also, yeah. And then just to follow up. Would there be any sight lighting or ballards or anything along the entry drive or anything like that post lights at all between the carriage house and the evergreens or. Not at this time that's not part of this application though there, the one site feature that I is. That we are contemplating and I think it was on the site plan I can't remember is a granite bench at the top of the drive and that is intended as a to sort of. The boundary of vehicular traffic. Yeah. That would be south of the path. So. It was on the plan I guess it does say that it said. I feel it looks like some of it with the, some of the annotation was cut off but it says, you know, a physical barrier between a drop off and path a granite bench or similar, you know, to be determined. Great. Are there people from the public who would like to ask questions? I guess you get asked if anyone wants to raise their hand. There's not seeing any hands raised. Do we have any other questions from the commissioners? Not for me. Do we have a motion to accept the certificate? Yes, I'll give a motion and just comment as always beautiful research. Thank you, Nicole. Do we have a second? I'll take them. Thank you, Bruce. Then we'll move to a vote. So Nicole. Yes. I agree to. Yes. Karen. Yes. Betty. Yes. Yes. And I agree. So thank you very much for your interesting presentation and for designing such a nice replacement. We'll be happy to grant you the certificate. Thank you for that. And thank you for the opportunity and the really helpful observations and in the conversation. We appreciate it very much. Thank you. Thank you. Lovely place. Great. Nancy, could I ask a native question? Nate, I, that was a fairly elaborate package and I went looking back through the emails that you sent looking for a link to the the packets and then I tried online to find it while we were talking about it because the presentation that I think Jane was showing us was was not very clear. It wasn't crisp and it wasn't big enough. I don't know. And I couldn't see as much as I wanted to. Did you, are you in the habit of sending us links to the packet as Pam is for the planning woman? Yeah, I, yeah, I sent, I sent an email. Didn't I? Yes. I just couldn't, I searched through your all the emails I received from you in about five or 10 minutes ago and I couldn't see the link. I saw the number of emails that we had the legal notice and there were I and then of course there was a couple of others and maybe they were maybe they weren't leads to the packet. Maybe they were documents, pure and simple. I can't remember. Anyway, I didn't. I did visit each of the sites, but I didn't see any documentation that was posted. So maybe I'm not looking hard enough here. Steve, did you have something to say? Yeah, I would just want to be, I did locate the link and I looked at it, but is there any way we can be sent this stuff as attachments, you know, for us? I think the issue there is it, we still have two hearings, but I think the issue is that some of these are larger files and it's difficult to send email. So, you know, I would have to be sending, you know, multiple emails, seven emails or something. I think that's the, you know, kind of why we do the online and the online packets also for others, you know, the public to view as well. So, yeah. Yes, I just need to get my link, a bookmark link directly to that site. I think the one that I have at the moment was somehow it had information on the, on the, on our commission and so forth, but it didn't have a link. It came in the second or third email about today. It's not a direct link. It just takes you to the town side. Yeah, but then you just click on it on the town side. You have to go through the folders. It's not right. It doesn't go right to the meeting date. Right to the folders. Okay. Well, let's move on then to the third item, which is 19 McClellan Street. Do we have someone here to talk to us? Someone is here for 19 McClellan. You could raise your hand. I seem to remember last time 19 McClellan was on. We had three continuations waiting for someone to show up. Yeah, I mean, I don't see any hands being raised. I can. So a 19 McClellan, they're proposing to put a rear entry. On the back of the building with stair, a stoop and a roof. I'll share my screen in a moment. See the. Yeah, so let's see here if this is the existing, if this is visible. On the back of the house back here, the proposing to where there's. Just right back in this area to put the doorway in. So the idea is to put a new door in. And these are the plans of a roof and, you know, stoop and stairs to match what was already that was existing. To match this existing stairs.  What's the purpose of that? If there's a. With that porch is, is there another entrance? So currently there's no. There's no entry here. So there is a laundry room that would be open to tenants. So that these stairs are go up. In the back. And so they're not accessing this, this, this, this area in the, in the house. Well, I have this. If I may Nancy, if I have the same problem with this as I did last time this was on that we, we just then it's extremely primitive documentation. And what are we exactly approving? I mean, I, I think I have no trouble approving the concept, but. But what are the materials being used and. And so forth is, is there a, I tried to look closely at that scribble that was presented. And I didn't see like, I guess I didn't see it. It was not long enough for me to see whether there were materials mentioned there or maybe the applicant has told you. Nate what's intended there, but. I mean, I think it matters. We know. What it's made of. As far as I, the way I read it was that it would all be pressure treated. So it would. You know, the way it's described is. To match what's there. So I'm guessing that the. The stoop and everything would be. You know, this is pressure treated framing landing stairs, you know, post ballast or similar to existing rear railing system. I have to say, I have a problem with using pressure treated number above. The, the deck level. I mean, it's people do it all the time and it's.   It gives splinters whenever you look at it. It's a very, it doesn't take paint. It's a, it's a really awful material and we accept it simply because it doesn't rock. And there's absolutely no need for it to be pressure treated in areas where it's not going to rot. And it won't rock where it dries and anything that's up in the air, like columns and rafters and ballast trades and all of that sort of stuff isn't going to rot.  And I think it's really not consistent with the, with the historic with the look of the neighborhood. It's only consistent with stuff that was done before we existed and people came along and did these egregiously horrible things thoughtlessly, stupidly, mindlessly. And I think we're here to put a stop to that. I agree with Bruce and having just gone there to look at it. The pressure treated is such a foreign element in what is actually quite an attractive old house. And they're proposing to put another kind of relatively massive pressure treated next to the others. So it's going to be overwhelming. And I agree it's going to be pretty ugly. And I don't like it at all. But I think the, the, the form is fine. The material above deck level is not in my view. I was a little unclear about where, where this is, if you could go back to the images. Because in the narrative of this discussion, I think people saw it as differently than I did. I wanted to make sure I have the right section, right place. Okay. I'll show Google street view. How's that. Yeah. Because while you're looking at that, Nate, let's just, I was, I went there, I drove around and I thought, why are they asking for a stare and a new entry is already there, because I was looking at the back. And. Yeah, it's on the other side that it's hard to see from this. Yeah. Yeah, I drove by too. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's back here. It's on there. Okay. It's right where that's there. Yeah. Okay. So then my question was just to the right of that, what is that up beneath that window. Over to the right, you make your, yeah, right there. What is that? That's what I right. So that's another, that's a probably a second entry stoop with a step or two down out of the, this unit. So there'd be 3 in a row. Is that what your, is that what the proposal is? Right. What are they going to do with the 1 on the right that looks. I think everything is going to remain. I mean, I think this space becomes a common laundry for the tenants. So it has its own entry. Can I reject it? Can we, can we weigh in on people not showing up?  I don't think we should make any determinations if no one shows up to answer our question. I don't even think we should be addressing this. So I think, yeah, if that's, you know, if it is difficult, I think there's been, you know, there's a lot of questions with the, what's been submitted. So we have until the end of March until, you know, we have, you know, certain, you know, 60 days to issue a determination. And so we have time if this were continued. And something that makes a contingent that they need to, I mean, why are we on the clock if they are remiss about showing up? Yeah, I mean, it is, I, you know, I encourage everyone, every applicant to attend the hearing to present or answer questions. And so it may be that, you know, this, it's happened before with this contractor or property owner. And so it's either a, you know, miscommunication or they're not, you know, they're not familiar with getting onto a zoom meeting. But I, you know, it's, I don't, I'm not sure exactly why. Yeah, I mean, I think as a policy, and I hate to be a hard pass about it, but I think as a policy, if someone doesn't show up, we, there's no point to even have a discussion. And I, unless in terms of being on the clock, you say, why are we on the clock if somebody doesn't, is there something in the bylaws that says that we have a certain time that they don't show up? No, it does.  And so that starts the clock.  They're not, you know, provide enough information, they're not detailed enough for scales or, you know, there's a number of reasons. You could continue it, you know, we have until March 25 to make a determination. And so, you know, if we were going to meet in March, mid March anyways, we can continue the hearing and this could be the first item on the agenda for that meeting. And if they don't show then it could be denied. You know, the applicant could issue. We have a waiver, they could waive the date, you know, the time limits. And so this could go on longer. And so, you know, that's kind of the 3 options that you could deny continue or. You know, have them continue it more. So we continue as we can deny it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Okay. I would move to continue with them. Yes, I'll second Steve's motion. We'd have to continue it to a time and date certain. So, let's see. You know, if we want to meet in mid March, you know, we typically would be Mondays. I mean, I don't know if. I mean, March 11. I mean, is that. A Monday March 11. Oh, I'm not sure that I'll be here. What's for me. Well, I think we have 2 members. I can't make it with me. I can do the 18th or the 13th. The 12. I mean, the 18th works still we have, you know, we have time after that, even if we needed to. So. Anyone communicates to this contractor or the land property owner. That they really need to show up. Or they just know that only thing they're going to hear is that there's a continuum. No, no, I mean, I actually, when they didn't show up, I just send another email to the contractor saying, can you join now? You know, they we alert them through our permitting software and send, you know, the public notices mailed to the owner and. I mean, there's a few different ways that they've been notified. And so. I'd communicate. I try to at least get a confirmation they can bend. I'll. You know, I'll tell them that it's been continued to this date. And if you don't show, it'll be denied. I mean, I think that's good. I think that's the message that we would like to send. So that, so we're talking about the 18th. I can attend the 18th, but we'll need to be off the meeting at 515. I could do the 12th or the 13th. I think I won't be here on the 18th. I could maybe tune in, but. I'll be, I'll be okay for the 18th. I'm okay for the 18th. Can you do the 18? I have jury duty on the 12th, but any other date works. Let's make it the 18th. And if that's okay, Karen, I'm sorry. So, 18th at 3, we can say that this will be continued to. Yeah. Do we need to take a vote on that Nate or we do? Yeah. Okay. So we've had a motion and a second. So, Betty. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And yes, for me also. So this will be continued to March 18th at 3pm. And if they don't show at that one, it will be denied. That takes us to our final one, which is 58 sunset. I think we have to make presentation. Do we have anybody here? I think so. 58 sunset. If someone's here. You could raise hands. We've got three people or at least one person. Carl. He'll be promoted to panelists. Carl. I'm just pulling up the information online. Thank you for coming, Carl. Nate, do you want to summarize what this is about? Yeah. I mean, you know, the 58 sunset there. There's work happening on the interior of the structure and. You know, what's happened is they're proposing some exterior lighting near the entry, which needs local historic district review. So. You know, as far as I understand, there's no other elements of the renovation project that need your review, except for this exterior lighting.  As part of this application. I think she would like to tell us about this. I don't think there's much that I have to add. I'm happy to answer any questions. Yeah, we are proposing to add a few lights on the front of the building. Also just. In the interest of full disclosures and no one's surprised. We do have a. Addition to the scope of work on the back of the house that's being processed right now. So there will be another. You know, that will come through in a subsequent hearing. But right now we're just looking at those lights on the front of the house. And are those down. Downlights. I can make sure my screen and. If that is visible, the. It's fine. No one can see the toolbar, but sometimes it is in the way. It's funny that that happens. This is the front of the house. So there's this front entry way there's proposed to be. There had been existing wall sconces. You can see the plates in the back. There'll be two wall sconces there. There'll be a. You know, a ceiling light here and then to. We'll call them spotlights out front. And so. The. If we. So this would be the, the downcast spotlights.  We're needed. Here's the ceiling light inside. So it's, you know, that's. Slightly visible, I guess, depending on how it's. It might not be visible from the street. And then here are the wall sconces. Yeah, look at those. Wow.  They are still under the. The. The beam here, the portico. I guess my only question. Would be. For the lighting out here. Is there any exterior conduit or anything to get. The wiring here, or is it, you know.  To get up. Yeah, we would drill through and there would be some. Onto it that would be up on the inside of the ceiling. Right. Run back to the house and be painted to match the ceiling. Right. So it'd be underneath. It wouldn't be visible from. Right. Right here. Are there questions from commissioners? Yeah. I have a question. I wasn't sure I understood where the spots were going to be located. Is the arrow mean. That's the place you're going to see that exterior fixture. Pointing down. Yes, the intention is to mount them basically right above the roof of the house. And they would be pointed down at the walkway that leads up to that entrance. Yeah, I don't think that's in keeping with the, the lighting in the neighborhood or for this historic house. But maybe Bruce has something specific to say. I don't know if he agrees with me. Chris. I kind of do. I, I, when I first saw this and. I thought, wow, that doesn't seem like a good place to put lights consistent and so forth. And then I saw the fixtures themselves. And I thought, well, they're pretty elegant looking and they're pretty recessive and, and, and, and that is definitely true of the proposed sconces that you've got. I think. They will do very well in the subing light. We don't know how far up that well of the ceiling goes, but my guess is you won't see it. That certainly should be a goal. Not just from a sorry point of view, but just so that you don't get hit with the glare to, until you get very close to the step. The, these outdoor, these lights at the end. I guess the goal of them is to eliminate the sidewalk, but I mean, the footpath, the entry footpath, but it seems that what they will end up doing is blinding the, the person who's coming towards the building. Maybe not. I mean, I'm, I'm, can you go back to the, to the elevation again and I'll ask Carl the question then. Sure. I was going to say that these, these lights are, you know, like three by five inches or two by five inches.  Yes. I know that's why I say when I saw the fixtures themselves and the size of the profile, the way they'll be mounted and everything, I thought I'm not so, not so concerned as I was initially. I'm wondering, Carl, would they be mounted above the, in the upper band above the column? How are the lower band above the column? I have to say, I'd prefer the upper bands. I think the upper band would be our preference as well. To be perfectly frank, I don't think we nailed down an exact height on them at this point. Yeah. So, so, I asked my opinion, I guess. I think, I think it's one of those things where we're moving with the times that this is probably a thoughtful addition to an old building with a new product. Which is, you know, some of my, I'm, I'm somewhat, I'm supportive of, I'm not supportive of locking in the looks of all of the buildings in the district to what they would have looked like. I think we should allow for some, for the, you know, for 100 years from now for the 21st century to have its story, have its chapter in the story of this building as a one way of putting it. I think when we were looking at House on Sunset that my former office brought that was for the Fitzgeralds, things were, it was, it looks a little different than it would have done when it was originally built. Some of the materials and finishes, but we thought it was a metal roofing, I think generally speaking is often that case. It's a good question, Betty, but I actually think as I'm talking while you're into it now that I think that that that is those pictures that Carl's proposing if they were mounted on the second band above the column that I would find that agreeable. I guess I'm, I just, I just want to clarify where are they going to be mounted so they're on the exterior of the fascia so that they are visible from the street, just like two little spots coming down like lights in a museum exhibit or something. So I'm sharing my screen again so this is an older street view just because it's visible. So here's the front of the house and so they would be mounted right right there here to illuminate this short walkway so if we you know here's a 2009 Street view the trees are growing up so it's harder to see but yeah you know so that you know so here you'd you know you'd see it on this upper band right here. Yeah. Well that's actually very helpful, Nate, because it shows that it isn't a walk that comes straight out but it goes. It's a band that rips around and I can see these fixtures doing a very nice job of illuminating the planting on either side which would then reflect into the basically put some light out into the landscape beyond the building. So my concern about being blinded and by them I think probably I can see how they would be directed in a way that would probably be quite nice. So I'm warming to the idea. Nicole. Yeah I guess clarification on whether it's eliminating the stairs or the walkway, like how far you're wanting the light to project, because my first thought was hoping that they could be hidden underneath, like the smaller one that you had suggested right by the door. Because I do feel like they are quite just out of place. So then, secondly, if it is the whole walkway that you're wanting to kind of put the spotlight on. I don't know if this commission has discussed just, you know, smaller lights just along the sidewalk, rather than being attached to the entry. To answer your second question first. And there were actually initially some just small solar lights along the walk. And the concern there is actually if you were to look at the photo that was being shared a moment ago with the markups on it I think you can see the snow accumulation. Because the walk, that walk is a single monolithic piece of stone that extends basically kind of right under the edges of the plantings there. And so in order to get, you know, the typical walk lights that you might put along the side of the walk, they have to be kind of into the plantings. And the snow buildup blocks and or upsets them as we got into this this winter season they were all being obstructed. So the hope is to get some lighting that is, you know, further up so that in the winter. You know, especially when it's needed most for an icy walk. But we don't have to worry about the lights getting buried in the snow. So your first question. I think that they could be located on the underside of the porch roof. Part of our hope here is to get the lights as high as possible so they can have as downward of an angle as possible to both not. And so before blind someone as they're approaching or to, you know, the casting more towards the public way. Yeah. So then I was wondering if even going higher so that they're hidden in the next overhang. Yeah. Like below the overhang so that they're. Yeah. Mounted and down. You mean coming through the socket. Yeah, yeah. I get evidently. Cal, can you do that? Can you get, can you access? It's a pretty flat. Yeah. You go through the ceiling, I guess I didn't. But that might be nice to have the lights out at the corners in the mounted on the soffit there. And then the opposite corner. Right. Then they would just be hidden more. And you'd still see them. But as I said, I don't think I don't have a problem with that so much because I like the look of them. I think they're, they're selected consistent with the, the form of the, we've got some subtle curves in this building those, those things that sticking out there are called medilians. Those medilians have got a curvaceous profile to them. And I think these lights have got a little bit of the same. I think they would look well and I think they would look better where Nate's cursor is right now. But Cal, what do you think about that? Have we still got Cal?  Oh, it's like, I think we've lost Cal. I think we, oh, he's, he's back. Oh, there he is. He's in the attendee list. Yes. Cal, you promoted again to panelists. About that. I'm not sure what happened. It just all went down. Yeah, hopefully it wasn't anything I hit. I'm sharing my screen. I can't see the, everyone, everyone else. It's only at home. It's a little different. I don't know what happens here at work. So Cal, how much did you gather what was discussed in the last five minutes?  I realized I was disconnected after I was starting to ask a follow up question to the question about whether or not they could be located even higher than on that freeze that we had initially discussed. Yes, that's what we are talking about. Could they be up on under the soffit on the corners or something is what is being discussed. I think that's a possibility. I think we would certainly be open to it have to have to go back to the site and just look at how we might be able to do that. There might be some feasibility questions about how we can get wires to there without surface mounted onto it that we're trying to avoid, but I think it's something we could certainly explore. It may work. Karen, do you still have a question? Oh, I was in that picture. It was very clear that it's probably for safety reasons. It's very important to get lights on exactly where this is going to go because of the way the stairs are, I can see in the winter and you want to be sure to focus that there is that stare there it's a little bit unusual. So, I think these fixtures are probably pretty appropriate and if you can put them in a way where they're least visible. That's good but if not, I agree I think they're, they're not bad. They're pretty good. I think we have a question from an attendee. Sure, Hilda you can unmute yourself. Well, if it were my house, I would wonder if maybe the two lights could go on the north or east corner rather across the front corners where everybody would sit. That's one suggestion or can you put a lantern somewhere at the end of the driveway where it. It's a short, looks like a short sidewalk so if you had a downcast lantern in an appropriate style it may be more effective and less intrusive on the house. That's my suggestions. If it were my house, that's what I would put the lamp properly and not touch the house. Do we have any other comments? There's not one other attendee if there's any other comments you can raise your hand. See any hands. Bruce has a question or comment. Yes, it was first of all I was, I know that Shirley was there, Shirley Griffin, and I noted because Ms. Griffin had submitted the public comment column before the meeting by email. And a number of concerns expressed which are probably ones that we would address but one of them had to do with color temperature which we typically don't deal with and nor probably do we have the power to specify and so forth. But there was an expression for from this member of the public that the color temperature of the fixtures be around 2700 Kelvin a color, you know, which is a fairly warm light. I didn't look closely enough at those fixtures but do you know whether the fixtures that you were proposing would have that and maybe you don't necessarily have to answer but perhaps what I should say is that it would seem that some of your neighbors would prefer a warmer color temperature if that's what your clients are inclined to want. You're saying what we specified is 2700. Okay, well let's let's let's sit and then we down on that one. Oops, my dog is getting excited. My wife must be about to come home. I know Christian Nate for procedurally. I would be supportive of certificate of appropriateness for the lights in the upper band of the harness there, but I would prefer, as I think others commissioners might as well for them to be mounted in the soffit. It seemed to me that that might actually be more functional because the soffit projects out from the plane of the and having them further out from the face would allow the downlining and elimination of both entry. So there might be some functional benefit to be able to get them in the soffit as opposed to be on the on that that kind of corners. So, but if we were to move and grant a certificate of appropriateness based predicated on them being in the soffit. Carl doesn't yet know that that's easy to do and certainly we wouldn't want it to be done at the expense of surface mounted conduits I don't think and I'm sure the building owners wouldn't either. Can we like I could ask you, Carl, if we were to condition if we were to grant a certificate of appropriateness conditioned upon them, the two out the two downlights spotlights being mounted in the soffit. How would you feel about that. Because if you couldn't do that you'd have to come back. We don't really want you to come back. That's for business. I mean it's time and so forth. I was going to say Bruce I think you and everything you said I think there could be a condition that the preference is a soffit mounted and if you know if that's not feasible or if surface conduit is necessary then then in the upper band and I think that's something where you know I could work with Carl and the building inspector or electrical inspector to determine if it's not feasible right so we wouldn't be just like oh. I can't be bothered. Yeah. Yeah. So that being the case I would so move. I guess that we grant a certificate of appropriateness to the applicant and dress and all of that sort of business for the for the five fixtures as proposed. With the condition that the three that the two down down spots be mounted if possible in the soffit of the veranda as opposed to the corners of the structure above the columns. We have a second second. And we'll move to a vote. Just to do it. Oh, okay. I wonder whether people because I just I just made that motion but I wasn't sure that everybody understands it or wants to maybe adjust it in some way. I mean is everybody happy with that. Or potentially happy with that. It seems like it's okay. So I seconded and I vote yes. Betty. Yes, Rita. Yes, Bruce. Yes, Steve. Yes, Nicole. Yes. And I also vote yes. So we are granting you that certificate and we hope that you'll be able to put them where we prefer but we understand that that might not be possible. Thank you so much for coming Carl to the meeting and for responding to all our questions. Thank you all. I appreciate it. Thanks. So it looks like we, you know, the hearing's been continued for the one property till March. There may be additional applications that come in then if not that could also be a public meeting where we could talk about other business. There may be some possible applications coming in usually spring gets busy when people are planning projects. So, you know, nothing. Nothing yet actually for any, any others, but I know there's been some property owners or, you know, people have been asking so it may be that that is also, you know, there may be another product or two that's heard at that, at that date. Okay. Before we adjourn, I wanted to say thank you to Steve for and congratulations to Steve for his grant. Oh, yeah, thank you. Thanks.  You still have to go to the finance committee and then get Robert Stamps hopefully by the town council but that seems to be usually pretty road. One question though Nate why would that subject is up. The mailings for when we go public is, I mean, but we got a $20,000 grant. And I'm actually meeting with Chris Kelly in March to go over what, you know, is to be done. I'm just wondering is, should we budget the whole thing for him or we need to preserve any money for mailings and Xeroxing or that kind of stuff. Yeah, I think maybe if we kept like 2500. Okay. Because the town doesn't pick up the mailings to the butters and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, we do but you know it could be a, it could be substantial or depending on what what else we might want. You know, he's, you know, I think we could, if you work with him Steve to refine the budget I guess we could just see where, you know what the cost would be and you know if, if he needs the full amount then yes needs a full amount and we can cover the cover all the other Okay, good enough. Does anybody want to meet with them with me or meeting with them on March 12 at three o'clock and Chris Scala used to be the head of the Massachusetts Historical Commission. So he's good. Anyway, if anybody is. I'll do it. I'll do it. I have Jerry duty. Well, I think I have Jerry duty in March to early March at some point. I should remember. He might be more fun. Let me make sure I have the right to it. Elizabeth it's actually it's 11am on March 12. Where he was going to meet at my house and I was going to show them everything on Dropbox. And then we were going to go to the site and look at the, you know, the buildings. And then I shouldn't, I have another guy that would be interrupted but do we need to do do competitive bidding or whoever we want to hire is fine and how does that work. Yeah for kind of architectural services that there's an exemption under procurement so I can just confirm that but I, I think that this type of service would fall under that kind of design architecture engineering study work so Okay. And one last thing before we adjourn.  Right. Right. So, yeah, so yeah, Dodson and Flinker from Florence mass was hired we had a review committee and we know the town issued proposals to find a consultant or a team to develop downtown design standards. And the process will be starting later this month or early March so staff met with them twice. We're trying to line up stakeholder meeting actually later this month and have them start a public engagement process in the next two to three weeks. It won't it, you know, it doesn't necessarily or it may include areas in a local historic district but I don't know if it does right now, but you know the idea would be it's a 18 month long process and maybe some of the things that they developed. We could incorporate into design guidelines or things but they're doing downtown. Right, I mean, you know, we've generally said here is the downtown it's kind of up to them to decide you know what, you know what how far do they study is it you know south prospect and north prospect to Kendrick Park to, you know, right it's north Pleasant Street and Main Street there's a some geographic area that I think they you know staffs kind of outlined an area and they would you know part of the public process would be determining where people would look. Remember, if you recall we basically said that we would like table schooling and LHD downtown contingent about the binding design guidelines. That's what they're working. Right, right, right. I'm just saying that it's not, you know, it may overlap with some of the Lincoln Sunset local historic district which would be fine. You know, so we're we've asked to have a pretty big area that they start with and then refine what where the design standards could apply but at least look at a big area to determine what's kind of the architecture and character of. And will we be consulted what have they do it I mean we have so much expertise now on our panel. Yeah, so part of the process is stakeholder groups and then they have you know, a lot of public workshops they're planning and so, you know we'd invite a number of boards and committees to attend and then you know, try to get a representative or two as stakeholders or a working group to attend so I think there's going to be plenty of opportunity for comment and review. We also had discussed some changes to the bylaw so that yeah, with regard to parking in particular what is what's happening with that. Yeah, that's on me. I have to work. I just have to, if there's some language I think you have to I think we should probably hopefully in March let's in March say we'll review the language. We've already looked at it at once or twice and if we think it's good then we have to afford it on to counsel for their consideration. Thank you. Yeah, I think it's, you know, right it's in draft form I think we just need to kind of finalize it and just say yes, you know, or like. Okay, let's put that on the agenda for March then. Is there anything else that people would like to raise before we adjourn. You know, actually I would just for the record and Wilford passed away I don't know if he was very instrumental in doing the research for the North Prospect Lincoln Sunset LHD. So I guess I'd like to put in the record. You know, our appreciation to him. Yeah. Yeah, he came in a town hall in the last few months I met with him a number of times and he, he offered his, he was trying to find a place to keep a lot of his records and I, I never heard back I said you know I've known else take them we can find a place, maybe something else to figure out. He did a lot of the original work on the East Amherst district as well. Awesome rest in peace. And Hilda has her hand raised again. Wait, Hilda you want to you can I meet yourself. Done question there with me what was the name of the material that was going to be used on the Austin Dickinson carriage post. Borel. I like to be accurate. I can't tell when you write this off right mention Ed Wilford. Please. Tell me what. When you write this off for the Andy please mention Ed Wilford. Ed Wilford will catch my husband in front of the street stop wall traffic for half an hour and tell him about what he was studying that day. All the time. Okay. They were good friends. So I think yeah if you look at Borel I think it's both the company name and then also the name of the type of siding it is. Okay. So like hardy board. Not exactly hardy so called the generic is fiber cement. And the fiber is wood and the cement is cement. Borel is is a is a comp is made of captured. Why ash products from a coal burning and so forth. So it's it looks the same the Borel is smoother than the than the fiber cement material. But they are equally cementitious in so far as they are resistant to any kind of biodegradation and they are equally dimensionally stable from a moisture standpoint. They don't move with that. That may be more than the reader wants to know. Oh really? You could probably fit it in maybe a footnote. All right. Do we have a motion to adjourn the meeting? Thank you, Nicole. The second. You vote by clicking the red button. All in favor. Click their red buttons. Thanks everyone. All right.


Dear students, in this module, we are going to discuss that how normal and deviant behavior is defined and particularly how do we make the moral judgments. Normal behavior is culturally defined and varies across societies and time periods. Normal judgments are often used to distinguish between normal and deviant behavior. When we talk about norms, we talk about normal behavior or in society, we talk about any kind of behavior. So, generally, the question in our mind is where do we get the permission to judge this behavior? How do we find out that any behavior should be considered normal in society? So, all these standards come from your morality or ethical values. The moral systems tell you the definition of right or wrong, and the difference between right and wrong is that the derivative sources of right or wrong can be your society, your religion, or your different cultural context. So, right or wrong defines normality for you, and your definition of deviant behavior also comes from here. Now, it is not necessary that what is considered normal today, which we are right-considering today, is considered right 100 years ago. What we are wrong-considering today is considered wrong 100 years ago. What is considered right in Pakistan today is considered right in Western Europe. So, right or wrong or your morality is defined in the cultural context and also in the historical context. So, moral judgments can be influenced by the factors such as religion, tradition, and social norms. In Pakistan, for example, homosexuality is often considered, is rather considered a very deviant behavior due to the religious and cultural beliefs. However, in many societies, it is considered perfectly normal behavior. Similarly, your dressing patterns are also varying from culture to culture. So, when we look at particularly in the Pakistani society, then what kind of clothes should be worn? And the concept of satir in the dress is found from the religious side. So, morality is one of the strongest factors for us which guide you, are helpful for you to develop those standards in which you can judge or test any behavior. If you do not have moral standards, then every practice can be justified in any context. Moral standards are universal guiding principles for you in which you can judge any behavior in any context. Drug abuse, for example, is another practice that is considered deviant behavior rather illegal in Pakistan. However, it doesn't mean that drug abuse or drug use is considered illegal in every society on earth. There are many countries in which drug usage is considered legal. The line between normal and deviant behavior can be subjective and it is constantly changing. Today, we consider early marriage as abnormality. A hundred years ago, early marriage was considered a desirable behavior. Similarly, the co-education system is considered perfectly normal behavior in today's society. If we look at it in the subcontinent, then the traditional culture, the traditional education system was considered a deviant behavior. So, normality is always defined through your moral judgments that how you are morally judging one behavior and its moral standards can have different derivative sources. However, the most important derivative source of moral judgments is religion.