Thank you. Welcome to the fourth meeting of the health and sport committee in 2017. The room to ensure that mobile phones are on silent, it is acceptable to use mobile devices for social media, but do not take photographs or film precedents. As you will see from our agenda, we have already covered agenda items one and two in private. We now move on to agenda item three. Item three is a decision to take agenda item seven in private at this and future meetings. Agenda item seven is consideration of a draft letter to the Scottish Health Council. Such items are usually taken in private. Are we agreed? Thank you. I understand one of our witnesses may be delayed. I don't know if it's travel or whatever. So I'm suggesting that we maybe suspend proceedings until we arrive if everyone's in agreement with that. Okay, hopefully should be a sort of suspension. So suspend, hopefully briefly. Okay folks, we are going to proceed. Agenda item four is two evidence sessions on child protection and sport. The first evidence session is looking specifically at football. Just to make you aware, the Parliament's photographer will be taking photographs during this session. Can you welcome to the committee Fraser Wisher, Chief Executive Professional Football Association Scotland. Andrew McKinlay, Chief Operating Officer of the Scottish Football Association. Donna Martin, Child Protection and Safeguarding Manager at the Scottish Football Association. David Little, the Chief Executive of the Scottish Youth Football Association, is stuck on the AMA somewhere and hopefully will join us at some point but we're going to proceed because we don't actually know his precise location. So before moving to questions, can I remind members and witnesses that for the purposes of the standing order rule on surjudice, no mention should be made to any live ongoing cases during the evidence session or to any issues that might prejudice those cases. Could I have the first question from Marie Todd? Thank you, convener. In actual fact, my first question was directed at Mr Little from the Scottish Youth Football Association so hopefully the others at the table will be able to answer it for me. I noticed from the written submission that there were 2,500 coaches in that organisation in December that weren't PVG checked, which is about 16% of the coaches working for that organisation. I wondered if you would be able to tell me what might be the barriers to disclosure or what might be the explanation for that number of coaches working in that particular sport. I know that you can't answer for that particular organisation but for the barriers generally there might be to getting PVG checked. Firstly, can I just thank the convener and the committee for inviting us along this morning, particularly myself and Donna on behalf of the Scottish Football Association. You're right that the main part of your question, Mr Little, will need to answer it. Donna will give you a bit more information on disclosure and whether there might be issues. On behalf of the Scottish FA, where we have obligations to have PVG checks done, we are fully compliant with that. You've seen in your evidence pack that we issued last year a directive to all our members around their compliance with a number of matters in this area, including PVG checks. In relation to our senior clubs, we have since 2011, since PVG checks came in, fully audited them through our club licensing regime to make sure that they are fully compliant. If other members are not compliant, we will use the powers that we've given ourselves under the directive. The ones that you are talking about are very much the Scottish Youth FA, and therefore it would be appropriate, or will be appropriate for Mr Little to respond on those. In relation to your particular question around barriers to disclosure, Donna, I don't know if you want to say anything about that. Sure. I guess across any of the sporting organisations in relation to what we all have in place for appointment and selection of people into regulated work with children, there's been a lot of progress and I think there's a lot of good practice in place. In the sense of, I guess, the procedure that we have, it's actually wider than just doing PVG checks. We want to ensure, because we do recognise that a PVG doesn't necessarily mean that an individual's safe, it could just be that they haven't been caught yet. So the way that we approach that in a wider sense is that it's not just a PVG that's carried out, there's also a self-declaration form. We also carry out two references on the individual, which in fact one of the questions within that is if they have any concerns about that individual working with children. We then take an individual through induction and ensure that within the three months of appointment they are receiving training in our children's wellbeing, depending on the level of activity they're doing within our association. And as part of that, that's around their understanding and knowledge of what our policies and procedures are. And ultimately, there's two ways to do that safeguarding practice. At that point of appointment when we're bringing somebody in, but it's then the on-going monitoring. So as part of that, what we also have is a code of conduct which every individual signs up to where it's clearly stressed what good conduct is expected, what practice should be avoided and the unacceptable conduct with a view that they then physically sign up to that. So that at any stage anything inappropriate is identified, there's no claim back of what I wouldn't have understood that that wasn't okay because they've physically signed that document. So that's the practice that we have in place within our own association. And like everything else, it can be a period of change to get the best practice there. But in terms of obstacles, it is just that sense of bringing everybody along with you. And generally what we have put within our own appointment and selection procedure is, as Andrew mentioned, is within our directive. So that's what we're looking for, the rest of football, because ultimately what we're trying to do is get that consistency. Thank you. I would agree with you that the PVG check isn't the entirety of safeguarding children. It is, however, in a very important cornerstone. And I see from the figures that the BBC have made public this morning that your organisation still has over a thousand coaches, not PVG checked. Then the Scottish Football Association. Scottish Youth Football Association? So they've got it on the table wrong. It's not our sales. We're fully compliant. Okay, so 100% of your coaches are PVG checked. Okay, that's great. So you mentioned in your answer about auditing the information. How do you do that? And what consequences can there be for organisations which aren't compliant? I'll start with the club licensing. The club licensing goes out every year to clubs. And we'll check a number of things. And it will check whether one of the things it checks in this is what they have in place around child protection procedures, appropriate PVG checks. If they are in breach, that will be reported up to the licensing committee, which in turn can be reported to our compliance officer through our judicial panel, which has a variety of punishments it could inflict. The directive is slightly different. The directive, which is much wider, which we've brought in for all our members, which would also apply to the Youth Football Association and ultimately to their members. Again, if there is non-compliance, then we will be monitoring non-compliance. That will be passed to the compliance officer, again, to go through our independent judicial panel process. And they have a number of different punishments that they can meet out. So what could you give me some examples? It can go from anything, from a fine up to expulsion. Okay, thank you. What the relationship is between the SFA and the Youth Association? Of course. The Scottish Youth Football Association is an affiliated association of the Scottish Football Association. There are a number of affiliated national associations, which we have the juniors, the amateurs, the schoolboys, the women's and the welfare and the Youth Football Association. They are an independent organisation. They are their own corporate entity and run their own affairs, but they are an affiliated national association. As their funding comes from the SFA down to them? There is funding that we provide to them, yes. But you don't oversee compliance? We do oversee compliance. That's why we've brought in our directive, to make sure that we can absolutely oversee compliance. If there are thousands of unregistered coaches at their level, we've given them, but we have made sure that they have to have that in place by a certain time, and if not, we will be passing that to our compliance officer. When did you do that? We put that in place. That directive came in October last year. So prior to that, obviously compliance wasn't working? Well, prior to that, we were aware of the issue and we offered to assist them with fixing the issue that they had, but you need to ask Mr Little where they were with that. No, but if you're overseeing them, if you're overseeing compliance and they're not complying, then there's a problem within the system, isn't there? Well, I think that's probably something for the independent review to consider. But certainly we've done everything within our powers and we have the directive now which gives us greater powers and we will be enforcing that directive. I think that we will come back to that. I think that there are clearly concerns that at the level of some of the most vulnerable participants there is this gap with proper certification and safeguarding and it sort of leads us to be concerned that assurances still couldn't be given today that we were moving away from the culture that has led to the disturbing facts that bring us to be discussing this issue in detail today. Can you give us any assurance that action's been taken to embed that cultural change? Of course. I think there's a very valid statement in Children First in their response about the creation of a culture that does value children. In this regard there are a number of things that we've done and we put those in our response. I think it probably passed it to Donna, who will give you some of those examples of areas that we've done to make sure that we do go to creating that culture. Back in 2014 when I was coming into post what had been carried out by Dr Sue Hamilton at the time was a review into child protection practices across Scottish football. The gaps that have identified then became the recommendations that I picked up coming into post with my background and experience of working both with the safeguarding and sports service with Children First and also with NSPCC Scotland. My understanding of GERFEC, of Shinarie indicators, of children's rights and being able to work in partnership with the various organisations who are the experts became the fundamental parts of updating policies and procedures and widening out. I guess pretty much trying to start to give people confidence because when we talk about the scary world of child protection there's either people are just unsure of what to do, they're nervous about putting themselves in a situation, they don't want that responsibility of taking the wrong action on behalf of children and so we felt that this was an opportunity to one demonstrate how children's wellbeing and our practice within sport can actually impact children's wellbeing in the widest sense but look at that continuum from wellbeing to protection and demonstrate sports role within that. So when we updated our policies and procedures they were very much written from a children's rights based approach and that's not just about what's in the policy documents it's then been about what we have carried out in the sense of training so the training that we've delivered over 2015, 2016 and already begun this year ranges from to our organisational awareness which is for any member of staff recognising that people have their own families and friends who will have children. We then deliver a three hour training for people who are in regulated work or will manage people who are in regulated work with children and that's very much getting that understanding of children's rights known what we're talking about in the sense of the wellbeing indicators. Can I ask about the children themselves and what action has been taken to raise awareness amongst children and young people about how to keep themselves safe and what is acceptable because undoubtedly coaches are in a position of great influence and potentially power and if you have young people who are dependent on you as to whether or not you get a place in a team there is a real power imbalance there so I'd like to understand what information is being shared with young people about what is appropriate and inappropriate and how that information is being shared. Of course, I guess just finishing up on the training that was there because it was essential that our staff and our volunteers had that understanding of what was good conduct and what was best practice. The next stage was then delivering training to our young players so at the moment I think when this was published back in the 20th of January we were in the region of 1,200 players we've since delivered training over the last couple of weeks to another couple of hundred young players and that's the sense of one, knowing what policies and procedures are recognising that they have a voice it's around their social media understanding and awareness both about how to keep themselves safe but recognising the power that can be used with social media as well we also carry out consultation with our young players so we've done that in different avenues one, we carried out an online confidential survey for Club Academy Scotland players who are registered with our professional clubs that was carried out back in 2015 and that gave the opportunity for them to be completely honest about their experiences within their football clubs so that we were able to learn what was working and what needed to be addressed that has informed the training that we are putting in place furthermore, for all our players who are in our performing schools our girls' squads and our boys' squads we do face-to-face consultation and that's on a yearly basis so the outcome of that discussion we have a children's rights and wellbeing officer who has picked up where I had started with that and it's then anything that we are learning from our players is then fed into whether it be that performance school or whether it be the squad so that they can understand that we're listening that we're taking on board any suggestions we're recognising when things are going well too but ultimately that they're feeling that they're involved and I guess one of the key things that I remember from the very first survey that we've done with an under 18 squad was the comments of a 17-year-old young man where when I first introduced Shannari indicators I wasn't sure what they were going to understand by that but we were asking them to give feedback on how they felt being part of a national performing squad travelling abroad and representing their country and one of the things that he mentioned around included was how included he felt as part of his Scotland squad whether it be from the airport arriving being part of that process the preparation for games and communication across between coaches sorry I'm nearly there and how he didn't feel that in any other part of his life but that's what he was getting out of football that he was included in that whole process I appreciate your comments there I think I'm still struggling probably like the convener is with this disjoint between the youth side of things who seem to have this it looks fairly relaxed approach to ensuring that everyone is as safe as we can guarantee on paper at least and probably to Mr Wishart and Mr McKinley I think one of the heartbreaking aspects of this news has been the fact that it's taken so many players such a long time to come forward with their information do you think we're seeing a shift that would enable people to come forward far earlier because living with that kind of burden must be truly intolerable do you think that the policies that are being put in place would enable a young person to come forward at a far earlier stage instead of thinking I'm going to live with this for 20 years or so I do, I can only imagine the suffering that these people have gone through and are going through I think football mirrors society we've seen a lot happen over the last few years in this area and football is no different and I would encourage those that haven't come forward if they feel able to come forward and the police have done that, we've done that and I would continue to encourage them to come forward whether that's through the NSPCC through the police through ourselves through PFA Scotland I think that's important if they feel able to Good morning, thank you again for the opportunity to perhaps inform this process just to be of explanation our interest has always been for our members who are professional footballers that's who we represent so in terms of the youth side it's not really been part of our remit but over the last couple of years we've found more and more parents coming forward especially from Club Academy Scotland players and parents looking for advice generally around regulations around compensation around the rights of other individuals so it's become an area where we have become involved we have a youth football advisory service which is basically around our lawyers and we took a call yesterday from our lads parents who did an issue with registration and wanted things explained that was passed to our lawyers who then explained it so we are kind of involved now in youth football and I think it's only right that we are involved in terms of this child protection and sport discussion we really became involved into this side when the stories came out and I think you're right that it's a horrific time and we have to encourage and create a safe environment for people to come forward that's where we've really seen our role there is Police Scotland, there is the Scottish FFA and if we can just provide an alternative route or a bit of comfort for people to come forward then I think that's absolutely vitally important it's a really huge issue we're going to discuss this here and I'm sure elsewhere as well there's the review, there's Police Scotland investigation but we can't take the focus off the individual and I think the players who came forward in England showed huge bravery and sometimes it just takes one person to come forward and of course in England they've had the high profile players come forward four or five of them now who are well known a couple of England international we've not had that in Scotland is that because of the environment is it because there's not support there I don't know, we've tried to make that public to say that we believe that there isn't an environment to come forward in terms of the NSPCC hotline or as Andrew says phone the Scottish FFA, phone us directly we've only a small number of calls but I do think there is an issue around the media profile as well I think that is very, very difficult to Scotland as a very football so high profile so high profile and I think that might be an issue how deep it is I think we can only guess but certainly anecdotally as I've said in my evidence that there are I've been told ex-professionals who are not willing to come forward because they are a wee bit frightened of the environment, frightened of what happens to them next do they have to go and speak to the police do they have to go out and court what happens in reaches and newspapers etc so that's where I think football has a key role as well in ourselves in partnership with the Scottish FFA with regards to younger people I think it's a very difficult environment if you're suggesting for a young person to come forward I don't think it's changed football is unique to that I think when you look at youth groups you look at churches, you look at schools you look at any environment where adults have a position where they have a position of power if you like or influence over a young person it can be difficult for a young person to come forward and feel in that safe environment so I don't think that's unique to football I think that's something that perhaps wider in sport and certainly wider in society so I think football is no different from anywhere else thank you and I'd like to pick up a little bit on what Mr Bishop is saying about football being no different in mirroring society the children and young people's commissioner in a report in May 2015 said that his main concern was the power imbalance and unfair treatment of children in football and recognising that power imbalance there with children and football clubs what steps have your organisations taken to redress that imbalance I'll take it initially and then to Donna will pick up as well we've worked through another committee through the Public Petitions Committee there's been issues raised around some of our registration procedures we've been in correspondence with the commissioner and others for a period of 18 months we also had the commissioner at our convention where we debated these matters and we've brought about some changes to those registration procedures I know there's still a view that that balance is still too much in one direction and that is an ongoing debate that we are having and will continue to have Donna, if you want to add of course significantly the big difference being around the creation of the young players wellbeing panel because I guess what is still outstanding in the sense of registration and ensuring that children's rights are being realised is that if a child is facing any issues with their registration if they are wanting to leave their professional football club but because of the processes that are in place around training compensation and there isn't that ability for clubs to be able to come to an agreement with that we do have the facility for young players to come to our wellbeing panel and that is a panel where there are three members one has the background from a legal perspective, one has the background from a football perspective and one has the children's rights and wellbeing background and the purpose of that panel is to make a decision and help mediate the process in the best of the young player what we do understand that this is very little actual cases would ever be raised in fact our panel has yet to be convened since it was put into place at the beginning of this season so there's been no complaints have been raised with that panel or nothing's gone to that panel because that's interesting because in the evidence that the children's commissioner has provided to the committee today and he's coming along at the next session so it would be interesting to chat with him then was that when children had raised complaints with clubs they had been told to leave and they had that subsequent to that they had then made complaints to the children's commissioner so I'm intrigued as to why they wouldn't have gone through the process if it is a simple process to go through with yourselves it's perhaps been timing but also in the sense of my understanding on the the group or the numbers of people that have either approached the commissioner or research has been carried out by his office has been a very very small percentage of young players who are actually in those registration processes with professional clubs the research that we carried out reached over 190 young players who are involved in that process and what came out very clear from that is that over 90% of them knew what to do if they did have a concern they did want to leave their club 75% of them were but I'm not necessarily talking about people sorry to interrupt you, it's leaving clubs I'm talking about them raising concerns in particular child protection concerns yeah and I suppose my experience of that or my experience of working with children and young people is actually that a coach is someone that we have a very close relationship with in the three years before coming to this post with the NSPCC I was involved with the Childline School Service, we visited primary six and primary seven pupils and the activities that we carried out they were around identifying the different types of abuse and bullying and the steps that they could take to keep themselves safe and one of the key things sorry I will get to the point one of the key things that came out is who they trusted that they would talk to where they're sports coaches that's who they would go to with something that was happening in their personal life so in terms of what our current practice is in clubs, clubs have had named contacts for child protection officers for a number of years the policies and procedures are there not just about responding to the concerns of a child so of a coach is worried but it's about responding to concerns about the conduct of an adult as well I hear what you say the policies and procedures but it's about the power imbalance so I'm not hearing anything that's reassuring me that that power imbalance is necessarily being recalibrated I suppose in the sense of the approach that we are taking with our training I believe that what we are doing around training our coaches and training people who are in our professional clubs about what a children's rights based approach is it's about creating that safe environment and what we understand just now and because I handle concerns that come in the Scottish Football Association I also support professional clubs we're players and parents and carers have spoke out about handling concerns as well I see that practice taking place so I suppose I I still believe in the sense of young people who are suffering and having the confidence and trust in others to speak out is always going to be a challenge and again, not just in football but I do believe that young players have that opportunity and know who to go to in their clubs if they do want to say something Alex Good morning to the panel I should start by declaring an interest that between 2006 and 2008 I sat on the voluntary sector issues unit of the Government implementation group for the protection of vulnerable groups act that act came into force in 2007 or was passed in 2007 and came into force shortly after at that point all new all new people being employed either in a paid or voluntary basis in a regulated childcare position had to go through PVG followed a three-year process and managed retrospective checking for people who already had enhanced disclosure my first question is specifically to a point that Andrew McKinley raised Mr McKinley you said quite clearly that you issued a directive in October last year to all affiliated bodies about PVG checking I can only imagine that the catalyst for that was the outbreak of the revelations No it was pre that I went to our board in August like it was pre this Nevertheless we're talking about an offence here that it's an offence to employ somebody who is born from working with children the only way you can get through that I wanted to ask about why has it taken nearly 10 years to get to this level of compliance where it's a directive in October to affiliated bodies why was there not such a directive in 2007 or 8 I'll let Donna pick up the specific point but I'll start off with the first point the Scottish Youth Football Association is an independent organisation who oversees their checks of their own membership they have their own member clubs so you very much need to put the question to Mr Little as to what they've done to ensure within their member clubs that there has been compliance they have their own disciplinary system and I'll be interested to hear how they have taken those clubs through the disciplinary system who have not been in compliance we were concerned Don't you speak to them? If he tells us will that be a revelation that you've just hearing today? Well no because it's come out over the last few months the numbers have come out over the last couple of months of the checks that they haven't done we were concerned last summer around what we've... Donna's talked about over the two, three years she's been in the work she's done to bring about best practice across the game to help across the game although there was some good practice across the game there was a lack of consistency and that's where we felt we had certain powers around our member clubs but we wanted to ensure that we had stronger powers across the boards where that lack of consistency continued which is why we brought in the directive to give us those stronger powers but as I say, they are independent they have the first responsibility and I think it is very important that you hear from Mr Little on that point I think it's very frustrating we don't have unless this... Is this Mr Little? Fantastic Shall I just wait till the witness can I just carry on? Okay, can I ask just to follow up on that Mr McKinley you did say that compliance is your organisation's responsibility to check that the affiliated bodies are compliant We need to check that they're compliant and they need to check that their own members are compliant and this is their own members as I understand it where the lack of compliance has been as opposed to them not being compliant but as I say, Mr Little should be able to... Mr Little gathers himself Can you just tell me what kind of measures you did over the last 10 years in terms of monitoring compliance in your affiliated bodies before this directive came out was there ever discussion with the sort of senior management of these organisations where they're on their journey in terms of full checking and the rest of it? We did have discussions and we offered to assist where appropriate we said that if there were issues we would be happy to assist them with compliance Can I direct to Mr Little I'm sorry to catch you just as you're settling yourself welcome to the committee this morning we've been discussing checking and the lack thereof within both in your organisation and others the Protection and Vulnerable Groups Act was brought in 2007 and it was designed so that it was a mechanism to replace the disclosure checking so that the offence... organisations would not be guilty of the offence of employing in either a paid or voluntary position a volunteer or member of staff who was in a regulated childcare position who was barred from working with children and you do that through the PVG team so this would be an offence if you employ somebody who was barred and that's how we have PVG but we've all learned that in terms of coaching among children that there are over a thousand such coaches who don't have proper checks within your organisation can you explain to us why that is Firstly could I apologise to everyone present and I would not recommend three hours in the M8 so early in the morning so profound apologies I think it would be important to give you some background in respect of SYFA and I'll be very brief SYFA has seven regions we've got 39 member leads we've got three and a half thousand clubs and as of yesterday 15,433 registered officials we have 60,000 registered players we have six full time staff and one part time staff to administrate that we have a churn of anywhere between 30 and 40 percent of our members on a yearly basis which causes great difficulties it's not as if we've got members that are going to be there the same membership year in year out so that has caused those difficulties and that is why there will always be this churn there will always be people to be checked for example this particular playing season 16,17 ends in June we will have people coming and going out right up to that particular deadline and I think this is indicative of sport in general as opposed to just football but there is this churn of officials we currently are in a position where we're going through we anticipate that we'll do between 800 and 1000 checks per month one of the things that didn't help us was in the early days where there was a cap on the amount of checks that could take place so again when you have a cap a blockage at the front end it builds up but I would just like to commend all our volunteers we have 238 38 additional signatories across the country and I apologise if I'm trying to tell my grannies how to suck eggs here but the process is that a person comes in to SYFA and the recruitment process at club level is key to this whole thing if they get it right using local knowledge predominantly within the local communities there will be knowledge they also have the ability to speak to other clubs in membership and say this particular person has turned up at our club he's indicating that it was previously at your club have you got any background why did he leave your club we've written into our selection in application procedures that they should pursue references on behalf of these people at that particular time any official of that type would be given a provisional membership with provisional membership comes the proviso that they cannot be left to supervise children they then go through the the registration process they attend a league meeting where these 238 38 ofisials go through check their forums check that they've got all the identification with them and at that particular stage they would then submit to SYFA we have our own registration system where we capture all of these details you made reference earlier to disclosure checks the old POXA we've still got information on our records of POXA we have been doing this for 15 years once the checks come in and go through the system they then go to disclosure services at Volunteer Scotland and then subsequently to disclosure Scotland for the actual checks can I say and put on record again the assistance that we have received from disclosure services in particular over the last 15 years has been phenomenal there are a phenomenal group of people through there and have aided the process right back to the days of John Harris so again we've been in at the beginning and this is the type of work we're doing I reckon that this year disclosure checks SYFA £70,000 sorry I was long winded no no no that's fine thank you for that and absolutely agree that there is no substitute for safe recruitment on top of disclosure and PVG checking however what concerns me is that the weak link in the chain in this in your very fulsome evidence is the description of what happens while coaches are waiting for the PVG check to come through we make sure that they're never in an unsupervised capacity with young people on the field now I accept that there needs to be tolerance, there needs to be an understanding of how this works but I would suggest that that's a risk and that actually knowing my son's football club there are many times in an evening where one of the two or three coaches has to go and help a child in the changing room or has to look after the kids on the field that doesn't seem to me a guarantee that we are we can be absolutely sure that we're protecting kids from risk in this and that's why generally particularly in the sporting environment the regulated childcare position is so stringently monitored as to where that lies and I think the Scottish Football Association agree and that's why they've issued the directive that they did in October that you have to you can't have people in that directive is Mr McGinley? Of course, it's taken it wider, of course definitely there needs to be the requirements for PVG checks to be taking place I do think there are ways that we can support SYFA in that process as David's outlined because of the time that it does take from that point at the club to get that into SYFA to get that through that process so I do think there are measures But the directancy would suggest that you as an organisation are not satisfied with the SYFA We feel there's a lack of consistency potentially across the membership which is why we've issued the directives not just to the SYFA, the directive is across our membership and we want to make sure that as I said a minute ago a lot of good work Donna has done in her three years in post helping members, helping them to be compliant to come up to standard but we want to absolutely take this to the next stage and ensure that there's that consistency across the game Mr Lysol, how do you respond to that and how achievable do you think that complying with the directive from the SYFA will be? We have a meeting on the 17th of this month with the SYFA to discuss the directive In respect of the directive what we need to ensure is that the paper work and its totality and I reckon that there would be 112,000 pieces of paper to implement the directive so what we are going to discuss with Donna is how we can get technology to work for us we have websites we've got Facebook we've got Twitter and we're going to use these tools to gather that information and gather it in a manageable format but the one thing that I would say about protection and can I say within the SYFA there's zero tolerance in respect of abusive behaviour towards children but there's a number of people have got responsibilities parents have got responsibilities to check out that club and on our website we have questions that parents should ask when they attend any club to determine their suitability the clubs have got responsibility to carry out the local recruitment the leagues have responsibility to ensure that we have vetting evenings where people can come along we issue a full report to every league every month with every official that's affiliated to SYFA SYFA have responsibilities to ensure that we've got the correct processes in place so by team working and everyone coming together we can achieve the outcome that we're all desperate for and that's a safe environment morning to the panel can I just look at these figures in a little bit more detail that the BBC are reporting last night of the 15,606 coaches at our coaching children 1,298 had not been PVG checked are those figures accurate Mr Little and you seem to imply that this was purely to do with churn amongst new coaches coming in is that the case of all of those 1,298 coaches have they applied for their PVG check so they're in the process it's purely just waiting for that check to be carried out what I would say is that the figures are not entirely accurate we have carried out 16,617 PVG checks at the moment as part of the churn we have 949 officials that we're working through at the moment these people are attending PVG meetings to fill in forums and submit forums in order to catch up with the process can I say while we're here today representing football this is across sport I did indicate earlier on that I anticipate we'll spend £70,000 this year on protection of our children but I hate to think what happens in respect of some of the smaller groups and I think other sporting issues after this so if we could just stick to football at the moment I'll just come back to these figures and so what you're saying is there are around 900 people waiting to be PVG checked they have all put the process has begun and you're purely waiting on those applications that we've carried out because when the BBC reported in December that there were 2,400 coaches and not begun the process the youth football association told the BBC there were 90 PVGs waiting to be processed which meant that over 2,400 had simply not begun the process so have all those people outstanding coaches 900 plus that you say there they've all began the PVG check and all you're waiting on is effectively that process to be carried out within 949 there are a number of forums that are on their way to us I couldn't and I wouldn't mislead you by saying that all 949 have fully completed forums there's meetings going on every night of the week across the length and breadth of the country so there are forums on their way to us I'm just trying to get to the bottom of how much of the problem is simply waiting for the natural process 8 weeks to be carried out how much of the problem is actually starting the process that you have coaches out there where you haven't got an application effectively for PVG checks because you seem to be implying in December there was a serious problem in fact in a statement you said you've written to all league secretaries informing them that any registered official who has participated in a live inside program and has not submitted a current PVG application formed by the 28th of February 2017 will be placed under an automatic precautionary suspension so you seem to be concerned in December that there was a problem with people actually submitting a PVG form so I'm just trying to get to the bottom of how big a problem that actually is well can I say as long as we have PVG checks outstanding I'm concerned of the 949 they were all emailed because we're halfway through that period they were all emailed on Friday and again we've reiterated that statement that if they're not compliant by the 28th of February there'll be no debate there'll be no discussion they will be suspended so there must be a problem if people actually start in the process not just a problem waiting for that process to be completed the problem that we have and we share with other similar organisations is that this process is managed by volunteers the volunteers the 238 officials are volunteers the league officials who set the meetings up are volunteers we're working with our volunteers to ensure a process and like every other process as you move on you learn from that process we learn what we need to do and we implement there are some things that I would like your good selves to consider I think in respect of the PVG process itself I think I would like to see an online forum which would aid the process greatly and again this was this was something that was promised at the stakeholder group meeting in this very room when we first implemented PVGs I think one of the other things that we need to examine and as one of the other submissions said the regulations being in place for a while now I think we need to examine how long does a PVG check last is it similar to an MOT certificate whereby on a yearly basis you need to replace it I don't think that's practical and I've got to be honest about that I think we need to examine how long it's going to last for and I think again I made reference to computer technology earlier on one of the other things that we discussed at the stakeholder group was a website whereby we didn't need to go through perhaps a formal checking process again that we would have access to a website and that would tell us we get that can I just clarify this are you saying that the key piece of child protection legislation and process within your organisation that has a membership of tens of thousands of young people is administered and organised and run by people who do it on the basis of goodwill and volunteering exactly yes Colin I'm still not clear how many of the 900 just haven't gone through the process yet and how many are actually waiting for the process to be done but can I come to the SFA you've obviously have a role in overseeing the youth football association and their compliance are you satisfied with the processes that are being conducted by them to make sure that these coaches are properly checked I think the crucial thing for us is as you know we've set up an independent review of everything that's going on and I think this will be one of the areas that the independent review will consider to make sure that there are no deficiencies in the system by setting up that independent review you must be of serious concern well that independent review has been set up on a wider that independent review has been set up to look at whether there have been deficiencies in the past to make sure that it looks at where we are now and to see whether there are deficiencies and to make recommendations where those should be should be closed as I've said we brought in the directive to give us our certain powers which we will use but if there's a view of the independent review that we should have there should be less independence for the SFA or however then we will absolutely look at that as part of those recommendations part of your compliance where we have around 900 plus coaches that have not gone through PVG Chech you must be concerned about that because it doesn't sound to me as if that's purely applications going in and simply waiting for them to be processed we're absolutely concerned but as I say there's very much Mr Lytto's organisation their responsibility to make sure that it's happening can I ask Mr McKinlay you oversee this organisation are you happy that the system that they operate is run via a voluntary system I think it's something that we need to look at I certainly think it's something we need to look at I agree and I think the independent review will look at it Do you think that there is sufficient investment in that system to make it work in a much slicker and quicker way again I think that will be something that the independent review will look at but I think there's definitely things that David has talked about there's definitely improvements that can be made as I've said we have offered to provide assistance and what about your role in that where this has not just happened what about your oversight of that has there been a failure of oversight well again I think the independent review will look at that I don't believe that we were concerned about the consistency that we brought in the directive to give us more powers and this will give us more powers to understand much better The numbers that we're talking about in the BBC report Mr Little is that the peak of those who have not been checked has there been a higher figure over time or a lower figure over time The figure that was coated in December was peak You've never had it higher over in the history of your organisation No Can I just make one final point about volunteers Not only is our process re-the checks and the league setting up the meetings organised by volunteers it's also paid for by volunteers We don't get any Government money to support that process and we don't get any money from Sport Scotland to support that process so there's maybe an avenue there where by if there was finance available we could certainly do with more people to assist Does Mr McKinley's organisation give you any money? For child protection? No Thank you We've obviously spent quite rightly a lot of time on child protection PBG checks and processes I'd like to ask you about a range of conduct which is less serious than that much less serious but still important to monitor and it goes to a question of culture and in balance of power that Clare Hocky was asking you about and I think it's important not just to talk about generalities here but to try and think of an example and one example I actually heard on the radio last week when David Beckham was being interviewed and he spoke about his time youth training at Manchester United and he was adamant there was no abuse but what he did speak about which is I think a helpful example is a professional humiliating a youth player an example he gave was of being made to do a silly dance in front of his childhood heroes and he said there was no wrongdoing but it was an act of humiliation My first question is out of interest do you feel 20 years on from that that kind of behaviour is acceptable or not and secondly if a child wanted to complain about something like that how confident are you that that child would be able to do so effectively No it's definitely not okay for practices like that to be in place what we have learned through consultation with young players are the challenges around bullying behaviour whether that's between players or whether that's in some examples of adults displaying that bullying behaviour again I appreciate it's just policies and guidelines but that is one of our policy statements is around anti-bullying we've worked with respect me and putting the materials together for the guidelines and we have a real good example in one of our member clubs of how they've went ahead and trained all staff parents and carers and the young players around that and it is that sense and I agree with you of how we get those messages very clearly to children that they are able to speak out and they are able to challenge but that has to evolve and progress through that training The question is how confident are you was humiliated or bullied how confident are you that they could effectively complain regardless of the policies you have in place of course I'm confident in our association within our squads and within our schools that young people have that opportunity and know how to come to us to speak out whether that's they have confidence in their coaches that they would speak to directly they recognise my role they recognise the role of the children's rights and wellbeing officer I do believe and because I have handled concerns and because I've had players come to us and because we've taken action against coaches I believe that that confidence is there I still think there's a road for us to go and that's why it just so happens anti-bullying is one of the areas that are in our player education coming up so Can I make a comment there to your first question No, it's not acceptable in fact it's totally unacceptable Again in respect of recording concerns etc we have an incident record forum we have a complaints management system which are visible on the front page of our websites we regularly send out to our 9000 plus social media audience advising of these processes we have a protection panel and I think one of the things that sport needs to do and I'm sorry Mr Finlay I digress minuscule I think sports need to get together and discuss the mechanics of how do you do this and share best practice we've got a panel that meets every month and that rules on membership re the disclosure checks that come back whether a person's suitable for membership and it also deals with allegations whereby maybe there's abuse but can I say and you can take this to the bank if there is any concerns that come in re the abusing of children we will engage the professionals the police to investigate that the last point that I would make in respect of this we have spent money and time and development and what we're bringing forward in conjunction with the blue ribbon organisation in Scotland NSPCC is an online training programme now initially when we instituted this training we thought there needs to be a fee for this training but it's of so much importance we have decided that as an organisation we'll take the hit and the NSPCC training will be free to all 15,000 SYFA officials Clare To pick up on a point that you've made a couple of times Mr Little about talking about sport in general as to football you weren't here when I'd asked my question earlier on about the power imbalance particularly in football in fact I would say almost uniquely in football where we have youngsters signing contracts where we have youngsters affiliated with certain clubs and given that lots of children aspire to becoming footballers both men and women footballers so that football is actually in a very unique position in terms of child protection and in terms of that power imbalance yes I think so for example my son's 35 years of age if you ask him who his teacher at school was he can't tell you if you ask him who his football coaches were he will rhyme them off can I congratulate the Scottish Football Association in their operation brave which is reducing drastically the amount of young players who will face that aspirational problem the operation brave has recognised that there were too many kids in there who basically were jersey fillers and now that number is being reduced I want to help young people Thank you again Thanks panel for coming along I just want to say at the start I had a son and a daughter who spent years playing football when they were younger and it's important to recognise obviously it's volunteers that are running these clubs and there's certainly a lot of positive role model there as well in terms of what teaches my team work and co-operation so I think it's important to recognise it in the vast majority of cases that is a situation notwithstanding of course the critical situation we need to deal with with regard to child protection what I just wanted to dig a wee bit into is a couple of things first of all round about the PVG checks and their effectiveness Donna mentioned earlier obviously you're doing much more than that which is great to hear and we've now got a thing approaching 10 years of this process being in place so I don't know if there is any data on this but I'd be interested to know if there's any data round about incidents that have been reported that have occurred over that period where you can say the evidence shows that for coaches that have been through the PVG checks there's a much much lower incidence and it is being effective in terms of weeding out people that shouldn't be in the process or maybe there's not enough data for that I'd be interested to hear that on the process bottleneck for processing the PVG checks and David you mentioned you've done 16,500 now is that over one year maybe just clarify that and maybe just a wee bit more about how long that process takes and I appreciate you've got a lot of churn and running that volunteer organisation I feel you understand that to understand is there a way to condense the timescale that process takes so as you get it completed more quickly a wee bit about the funding you mentioned down about that is that an issue in terms of if there was money or if the checks were cheaper or freer would that help to speed up the process and get more people coming through because at the end of the day what we want is more qualified PVG check coaches coming through and volunteering to train kids in sport that's what we all want to have If you'll pardon the poor pun PVG is the only goalkeeper to the system the most important thing here is a robust recruitment process using local knowledge and then while we're totally satisfied then moving into a PVG scenario yes we have done all of those PVG checks and prior to that we had done POXA checks we've been involved in this process from the very very beginning and the beauty about that longevity in the process was there was a whole stack of training delivered by Volunteer Scotland in the early days I'm just a wee bit concerned for new organisations coming in obviously they need the same level of support that we were lucky enough to get respect to very brief bit of time left so you need to be really sharp with your answers in respect of funding funding's an issue I believe that if we look at other forums of PVG checking electronic forums etc that can assist but any funding from Scottish Government to allow us to beef up our process is that the most welcome and just to clarify for that 16,500 does that put your process in a single year no that's over the period of the process the big difficulty we had was the restriction on the number of checks and again when you've got who placed that restriction it was Disclosure Scotland at the beginning and it's like that's gone now hence the reason that we're up to 800 checks per month at the moment and just on that point is there any data that anyone's got that says if you've been through the checks you're safer if you like in those terms I'll answer you on the basis of the last two people that we terminated their membership had been through the process and had been fully accepted into membership and their disclosure was completely blank in respect to criminal records I would say that definitely the process is working where obviously we have all our individuals who are on regulated work PVG scheme members we have been notified when people are being considered for listing and that's allowed us to place precautionary suspensions while that listing has been looked at so in terms of reducing the risk that the function of PVG is playing a role there but I guess what I believe that we need to inform and support not just within football but within wider sport is that second responsibility of referring individuals so if David's mentioning that he is taking people out of regulated work roles it's then our responsibility to make that referral to prevent them from working anywhere else with children in the process a couple of final things in relation to agents and scouts and intermediaries is there an issue there look poll if you like to those people need covered up a matter that specifically has been raised by the NSPCC in their evidence I think there could be a look poll in the legislation there it looks like there is a look poll in the legislation should look at you said earlier that football mirrors society at the highest level I don't think it mirrors society at all because football at that level is often very irrational it draws people's ambitions and overwhelming emotions and loyalty from people who are fans and not necessarily just young people older people act very irrational around football at times and people would walk over broken glass to play for their club stand on the pitch never mind getting paid for it so for young people the potential for young people to play for those top clubs draws often overwhelming emotion and drive not just from them but from their families as well given the vested interests in football given the huge amount of money at the top level is there a willingness by the top clubs to confront this and be completely open and deal with all elements of this or are there those vested interests that might cause them not to be acting in a fully open manner maybe Mr Wishart would be the best person to comment being the issue of child protection and sport yes the whole issue around the topic and historic issues and current issues well I think in previous years I think there's quite often there's a reluctance to deal with the issues from the top clubs but I think now given the remit of the Scottish FA's review and given the person that's been in charge of it who we've experienced and who has a good knowledge of that area I think clubs have to be open and transparent in terms of the review to get to the bottom of it the power imbalance which I agree with I think that's an issue that clubs need to address and perhaps be part of the review where a player signs a registration form at age 11 and the club can unilaterally renew that every year and there's a compensation payment upon that that in itself deals with an imbalance and I think we have to have been touched upon by some of the members here a better reporting system and a safer reporting system where somebody is happier to come forward I don't believe that in players there's not one issue that's been raised a wellbeing panel hasn't heard any yet but I'm aware of a number of issues that have been raised but there is the issue around compensation when somebody's not happy having one club to another so I think clubs have to address that I think we have to address the issue of intermediaries where unregulated people and unchecked people are able to go and sign representation contracts with miners with 13, 14 whoever age that's something that needs to be looked at similar to the English system where you do register and you have to go through a check if you want to to go with miners but I think now given the huge focus that's on this I think that the clubs have to be open they have to be transparent we have to get to the bottom of this because if we don't get a proper report as to what went on previously and who said what to whom and why were issues raised with clubs and not dealt with by the clubs which has been raised with me personally then I think that the review will fail and people who have survived abuse will come forward and say no that's not good enough I think there's a lot of issues around the professional game that's my area of knowledge the one point I'd make about the that's been said today about the SYFA and the youth it is absolutely reliant on volunteers and the vast vast vast majority of people who volunteer in football and sport do so just out of goodwill and I think we have to support these people there are issues around I think David can clarify this but certain levels of coaching qualifications need to have you also have to go through first aid qualifications as well and the PVG check all of which I think should be in place but I think if we talk about barriers I think the first question was as well let's not put barriers in there I think we have to inform people I didn't know this until this morning till Donna told me that volunteers can go through a PVG check and it's free of charge there's a commitment there financially in terms of the qualifications there's a commitment there in terms of time as well and I think we have to support the people who are monitoring this and we have to support the individuals themselves who have to go through this process because we do not want to discourage the people who put in so much time and so much effort to coach my children when they went through through various sports as well because if we don't have them then our children don't have sports to play so I think that's an area as well we have to really look at as it's support in terms of finance time or whatever else because these people are vital to do you want a final point? Nothing particular to add Thank you very much for your attendance this afternoon really appreciate it I think the final point that was made I think all of us would concur with that that what we want to do is have the best system possible that protects children and young people but also coaches and volunteers who give up their time every week to help young people in Scotland all their interests to get this right we look forward to the interest to the review coming up thank you very much and can I suspend briefly for a change of panel? Okay This next session is a round table and child protection in sport we will go round the table and introduce ourselves so my name is Neil Finlay I'm the convener of the health and sport committee I'm Kim Atkinson I'm chief executive of the Scottish Sports Association I'm Claire Hawke and deputy convener of the health and sport committee Tom Arthur MSP for Rentressers South I'm George Thompson chief executive of Volunteers Scotland Miles Briggs MSP for Lothian Region John Lunn Head of Pathways at Sports Scotland I'm Alex Cole-Hamilton I'm MSP for Edinburgh Weston I'm Lib Dem Health Sportsperson Tam Bailey I'm the children and young people's commissioner for Scotland Donald Cameron MSP for the Highlands and Islands Mary Glasgow director of Children's Services at Children's West Alison Johnston MSP for Lothian Forbes Dunlop CEO of Scottish Swimming Dr Leon MSP for Ardynstyn and Belfast John Hogan's ACC Police Scotland Yr Eutard MSP for the Highlands and Islands Matt Ford national head for NSPCC Scotland I'm Colin Smyth MSP for South of Scotland I'm Lauren Brace the policy manager at Costa Ivan McKee MSP for Glasgow Proven Thank you and the rest of the people at the table are committee clerks The Parliament photographer will be taking photographs as we go through the meeting and could also say that before moving to questions could remind members and witnesses that for the purposes of the standing order rule and subjudice no mention should be made to any live ongoing cases during this evidence session or to any issues that might prejudice those cases Alison, would you like to begin? Yes, thank you convener and I have a couple of questions and I'd like to direct them in particular if I may to Mr Ford from the NSPCC I'm not sure if you were listening to our previous evidence session this morning Mr Ford I think it sort of shines a light on one of your suggestions certainly serious concerns have been raised this morning you suggest that Parliament undertakes post-legitim scrutiny to ascertain how the system is operating in practice I wonder why you came to that view Well, I think in the period first of all, can I say thank you and we welcome the opportunity to give evidence to the health and sport committee and we've been very concerned by the allegations which have come to light across the UK about sexual abuse and football and we do believe that progress has been made in putting in place child protection processes first of all, we think that's only a step on the way because the most important goal is to build a culture in football and across sport that has children's well-being truly at its heart and that in such a culture everyone is fully aware of the responsibilities they have to keep children safe so we believe that all children have a right to be safe when they participate in sport and we've heard in the earlier session much about the excellent work that volunteers in particular do about coaches in general to for our young people that helps to make them healthier, more confident and so on and most of the allegations that we're aware of date back to a period before the PVG scheme was in operation so there's room to believe that we've come someway from those days in having processes in place to ensure that individuals who pose a risk are identified and banned from working with them in sports or other settings but having said that we believe there's no room for complacency good policies need strong and consistent application compliance is important across organisations and responsible bodies and it's right that when we have the opportunity that is afforded by the realities that are revealed by the allegations that have come forward that we take time to reflect on what might be done now better to protect and support our children in sports settings the PVG scheme again there's been discussion already in front of the committee about it's ten years since the PVG scheme was approved and it fully came into force it's been fully enforced following the catch-up period for at least five years it would appear to us the right time to look at how it's operating in practice I believe today we've already heard of some practical realities that need to be thought about and it certainly would be appropriate for some proper scrutiny to be applied at this stage I think your comments are very well made it does seem that if we're relying on a small number of full-time staff and thousands of volunteers to deal with a very large administrative workload that it would be well worth having a look at one of the other areas that your evidence, your written submission touches on is the Abusive Trust Sexual Offences Act 2009 and you point out really that coaches aren't covered by the definition of position of trust as a teacher would be I think I was quite surprised when I read that possibly an area that we haven't given a lot of attention or focus to how do you think that covering coaches with that definition would help? I think the consideration that I think is worthwhile here in the spirit of reflecting on how are we doing everything we can to protect children is to look at current legislation that's intended to identify areas where children can be vulnerable and the position of trust legislation addressed something that we have seen as a problem where children can be exploited by people who are in a position of power over them in a position of trust but perhaps at that time believing that they're in a consensual adult relationship that sort of definition it seems to me works very clearly applies to the sorts of situations that have already been discussed in front of the committee this morning the sorts of situations where a child or a young person is desperate to succeed at their sport we've been talking about football football being the highest profile sport the highest status sport in Scotland touches to the aspirations indeed the care of identities of many young people and their families so coaches and others involved in the life of the young football player are people of enormous influence and power and there is an imbalance that is in place there and therefore there is without doubt a position of trust that is occupied by coaches and in those situations we have to make sure that the law is clear that abuse of those positions of trust should not be allowed so we think that it's worth reviewing that legislation to see where coaches and other people we identify also in our written submission we identify talent scouts for example who may well be people a young person would be very eager to please you can see why so that's the position of trust I think these are all areas that could be looked at in any post legislative scrutiny can I ask one final question convener could we have brief questions and answers cos we ain't got a lot of time this morning very briefly what impact have the allegations had on the work of the NSPCC on a day to day basis the main impact has been through our national helpline which we set up a dedicated line for survivors to call and so there has been a steady flow we had to make some very quick changes to expand our capacity to take those calls and then of course there's a huge job of making sure that they're appropriately dealt with and passed on to the police and arrangements are in place for that I'm glad to say that we've been able to cope with that demand but it's been unprecedented demand around one particular area of children's life i sport so we haven't had that particular focus on sport or football before but it's a sort of activity that the NSPCC helpline is able to respond to Alex and just the other members of the panel please indicate if you want to come in on any of the points that's been raised thank you convener, looking at the BBC report today about the number of coaches in various sports in Scotland who are checked and those who are not it seems that some disciplines of sport are getting it right boxing, gymnastics, athletics, tennis, golf, hockey whereas some are consistently wider than Mark one in particular concerns me is swimming which seems to have as much as 10% of coaches unchecked I've raised that because I think that swimming is unique in the sense that in terms of the regulated childcare position in terms of unsupervised contact given the nature of swimming the changing rooms, showers the likelihood of nudity and things like that that this is a bigger problem for me perhaps I'd like Forbes to address that in particular but then open up to the wider panel as to why some sports are getting this right and others are not and how we can disseminate best practice across the piece but Mr Dunlop thank you our processes in place require all coaches to be checked the numbers who are not checked are down to a lag or a delay in that checking process I have absolute confidence that all those that we state being unchecked will be checked I also have confidence that none of those people are working individually with swimmers they are poolside helpers working with coaches who are qualified and PVG checked so if I can give an example a parent wanting to help out on poolside will start that and the system will then catch up and help them become a qualified coach but also put them through a PVG check clearly the spotlight that's been put in this area just now makes us reflect on whether people should be allowed on poolside in any capacity before they're checked and that's something we'll need to go and consider I would however like to also stress that the PVG component of the child protection system is one we also are very proactive all our member clubs have a volunteer child protection officer they're all trained, it's all free of charge we train around 500 members a year and then save hands courses run by children first they're also free of charge and the one other change from the football evidence we have a layer of professional staff if you like who are there to support and help these volunteers at a club so we have five regional officers across Scotland who deal with and support simple cases of child protection and then myself and a part-time welfare officer who are on call 24-7 to support and deal with more serious cases so we've reflected on our figures we look at that, we consider what we do about that but I would give assurance that these people are not working individually with children they're working under a qualified and checked coach so if I may convene, if I can open up to the panel as to the disparity between the example and I absolutely accept the explanation that you've given but does that mean then that some sports have a zero tolerance approach to not allowing coaches on the ground if they haven't had their PVG checked whereas some don't operate that I don't know who wants to go first Andy, have any knowledge of that? Speaking to my colleagues that is the case, yes some coach, some sports will say there is zero tolerance you cannot help out of this club until you have a PVG check in place Just to say thanks very much for the opportunity to come along today to this session and probably just to reiterate Forbes' points there that there is I would say consistency in terms of application across governing bodies in terms of the processes, procedures and systems that are in place and we, although the figures have come via ourselves in terms of the release it's important to contextualise that in far more detail than perhaps the BBC or the media would which is that there are a number of coaches will be classed as working with children who would not be in what would be defined as a regulated working position and therefore are not required to be checked in some sports they'll check all those coaches anyway but the regulations do not require that to be the case in other cases as Forbes has said there is a lag we have a lot of governing bodies run coach education towards the end of the year those coaches are at that point identified as working with children and then the PVG process is commenced at that point so there are gaps and we've gone through this with each individual sport and we have no concerns that there's anything like the gap we've seen in the Scottish Youth Football Association in any of the other sports so that's probably the first point to make in that respect and the other point is that the PVG checking itself is just one component of what is a robust system there are a number of other aspects of this around child protection officers in clubs which is where the responsibility lies in the legislation for the checking itself that network gets extensive training we work with children first as Forbes indicated in providing that training there's been more than 23,000 officials put through that training since that training programme started so that's just one aspect of it we do bring those groups together and share best practice there's updates on what the legislation is there is a robust comprehensive system around there and to look at the PVG piece and the gaps that are there in isolation is perhaps just looking at one aspect in terms of Sport Scotland's view of the Youth Football Association what is your view is to why there is such a problem there again that's been documented and discussed at the earlier session it extends it but that was their view, it's your view I'm looking at the Youth Football Association is one of the member bodies of the Scottish FA and that really is for them to work through that in more detail and it should be more robust than it is but what's Sport Scotland's view is to why there's such a problem I think the problem has been that they've identified some of the scale of some of what they're trying to do so is it scaling resources? in some respects I think there's scaling resources but it is part of a wider system that is in place and it is there and that is robust and we're not saying that that system is perfect there's always opportunities to improve on that and some of what's being discussed today at the earlier session has identified where some of those improvements could be made MDLs want to come in, Donald? Can I just ask you a basic question in a standard case where there's no further assessment in terms of PVG checking how long does it take? I think that would be a question I would ask the Schools of Scotland for I'm not aware of it, I know it's variable but they would understand exactly what the timeframe is like for a processing case to take place There's no backlog in the overall system it will depend a little bit on whether or not there is actually a criminal record that comes up so that can affect it but in terms of our handling at the disclosure services side it literally is in a matter of days that we turn things around so there's no lag in the overall system but I would say though it might sound a bit ironic in the sense that we put through approximately 50,000 PVGs a year and as such I think when we look at some of the issues that Scottish Youth Football Association have and others it's not something that's causing us great concern it's not in the nature that the media is covering in some of the questions today yes clearly it's been covered in the evidence to you that there are problems about some of the communications and the reach out the small groups and everything else about making that a bit tighter for sure but if your question convener was not so much why are there these delays but is there a risk to children that these delays are bringing about then that's a different thing coaches that are coming through that are in the system that know that they're going to be filling in the forms that are going through PVG and the other checks are to my mind not the most likely individuals to come in with a harm in their intent and I think that overall what I would like to say is that we're the systemic failures of 20 and 30 years ago which of course includes the BBC and how they systematically failed to look after the welfare of children in their care is not the system just now I think we've got a balanced and proportionate an intelligent system that's trying its best to actually look at where the risks are to manage those risks and to make it a system which is attractive for everybody to feel safe in and I think it did come out a little bit with the earlier and quite evidence I think you have to consider as a group the importance of creating a safe environment for volunteers as well and I know that Tam Bailey the children commissioner will be saying things shortly I'm sure but I remember Kathleen Marshall doing some research into this some 10 years ago when she was the children's commissioner he discovered that when she was looking at the issue about men not volunteering with children across all different fronts why was that and for those men that were not involved with children it was the fear of accusation was one of the main breaks for them not coming in to be a volunteer for those men that were involved as volunteers with children they didn't have the same fear we have got to create an environment whereby everybody feels safe and confident that you can volunteer, contribute to children's welfare children's sport and development in the knowledge that we are managing the risk of those that are there that would do harm but don't if you like throw the baby out with the bath warm a point that Mr Lynn raised rightly pointing out the fact that there is only part of the process and I just want to touch on the minimal operating requirements that you've obviously highlighted in your evidence and I'm just keen to know who actually assesses whether those requirements are actually being met and how is that assessment conducted obviously you have sanctions if you like that you can use if those requirements are not being met have those sanctions ever been used and what do you do when you've had to use those sanctions to make sure that the children in those organisations are being fully protected if the minimum requirements are not actually being implemented and the final point is just it's obviously very difficult to get to Mr Thompson's point it's clear this morning it's very difficult to get to the bottom of the figures as to how many of those outstanding PVGs are actually simply because we're waiting for the eight or ten weeks process to be conducted or actually no application has gone in and I think it's very difficult to get to the bottom of that based on this morning's evidence but I'm just keen to know if people think there's a wider issue is it a slow process for some to be PVG yet or is there a wider problem there Okay, a number of points there I think the starting point with the minimum operating requirements is we have a partnership with Children First the MORs were developed by them and they assess that so that's been a long standing relationship we've had that's now done on a quarterly basis they'll give us an assessment of the components of those MORs of which there's eight and give us a status in terms of where that sport is that's formally reported on a quarterly basis and we've got that trend information over time the standards, sorry, the MORs is probably helpful to understand is the starting point that we're working with we're currently working on revised standards for those which take that further and start to include some of the areas that were raised earlier around bullying and putting the rights of the child at the centre of it so the MORs are very much the starting point for that in terms of sanctions we get reports from Children First on the status of the MORs with each governing body as I said quarterly and we can and do operate a number of processes around that our objective is to get those governing bodies as compliant as quickly as possible because ultimately applying a heavy sanction perhaps withdrawal of funding could have an impact negatively on the children involved and on the clubs on the ground so we do have a number of support mechanisms in place there to support those organisations to get them back to compliance we can put conditions on their investment that requires them to achieve that more quickly we can work with them in Children First work collaboratively with those partners that have found that they're not compliant at that particular point in time Come back on the funding obviously you indicated that you fund Children First I think it's 125,000 per annum I think it's clear that the training that people get through that is obviously incredibly welcome one of the points raised this morning though from the Youth Football Association is the fact that they don't get any funding for the significant cost around for example PVGs do you provide any funding to any governing body to meet those substantial costs? Yes it's slightly more complicated in that we invest in governing bodies we invest in 52 of those a number of those receive what we call effective organisation investment that totals over £3 million a year that underpins robust organisations that doesn't just cover their safeguarding duties it would cover things like anti-dopen and legal compliance that they have as well and how those governing bodies choose to deploy that resource is not entirely up to them but we would work with them to understand where that resource can have that best impact so that's the direct piece to the governing bodies how that then filters down into the individual components of work we expect some of that to go into this area because that's a compliance piece that we expect the governing bodies to meet so that's part of it clear Thank you Cymru I'd like to take us back a little bit to the panel before and ask a question really of the Children's Commissioner if that's possible you would have heard that I'd asked about your report where you had talked in May 2015 about a power imbalance in football and I see from your written report and I'm going to quote from what you've submitted to committee today that despite some improvements my view is that there has not been the necessary attitudinal change to give confidence that the circumstances where some adults seek to exploit children are eradicated from football I wonder if you could expand on that please and tell us what you think should be done so that it does give you that reassurance Okay, and thanks for the invite today Before I do, I just need to correct something that you said earlier which was children being asked to leave clubs that was in reference to other sporting clubs not football clubs just so there's clarity I came into this many years ago really at the behest of the petitions committee on quite a straightforward matter which was children being held to contracts by professional football clubs as to whether they could play for their school team or not and the committee was asking a fairly simple question is this an infringement in their rights and to me it was straightforward and it's dragged on and on and on and in the meantime a number of other issues have come to light which are being dealt with through the petitions committee but that single issue of whether children can play for their school team or not didn't get resolved until last year when the SFA changed their rules so that children would have an unqualified right to play for their school team so my comments today really are coloured by that process and how long it's taken for us to achieve very small change and in the meantime there are other outstanding matters which in my view the professional football clubs have remained intransuring and that's why I say that the situation of the kind of power imbalance between children and the football clubs remains because it's in the vested interests of the clubs to have complete control of those children and that's evidence by the way that they have held out on certain contractual matters the way that they operate the compensation scheme it's all to the advantage of the professional football clubs and to the disadvantage in my view of the children involved now that power imbalance is actually really about the culture within the football clubs within the professional football clubs and it's been mentioned several times today about this business of the culture and how we value our children and young people despite some of the efforts that the SFA have put into place despite the SFA appointing various officers and having procedures and sending directives the overall culture remains that the professional football clubs have control of those children and young people who are under their charge and that's what concerned me and that's where I don't see much change within a professional game Do you see that mirrored in other sports? I think in my evidence I said I don't really have the same in depth knowledge of the other sports so it's difficult to comment but the ingredients of the coaches have empowered over those children and young people and in fact having in the palms of their hands the access to their dreams I mean these are children who are desperate to be as good as they can possibly be possibly seek a living from the sport that they love and enjoy and we've got thousands of people who want to assist them in doing that and that's why there's an extra onus on the clubs and particularly the professional football clubs that they are extra diligent to make sure that they respect the children and young people and that they in fact treat them in a way which they would want to be treated themselves and not being held to my mind unfairly in terms of some of the contractual arrangements that they have within the clubs and as I said this is actually for the petitions committee which I'm appearing later this week to try and decide what's the best way forward to you my view is that it needs external regulation I don't think that the governing structures within Scottish football allow for the self-regulation that is required and just on the issue of PVG PVG is only as good as the information that is put into it so we shouldn't be reliant on just PVG and it's been said by several other contributors it's about procedures it's about monitoring but overall it's about the culture that you have within that sport and that's when my concerns come from football and a further point that's come to the light is the issue of the agents agents who are acting on behalf of children because where there's money then there will be agents who will try and make some money for themselves a year ago I wrote to the SFA expressing concerns SFA and SPFL about the child protection checking on those people who act as agents and they took no action now thankfully as a result of appearances in December Andrew has given an indication that that will form part of the review but it gives you an indication for me it's an indication of the slow response of the football clubs to the responsibility they have to the children in their charge Marie and I'm keen that other people come in on any of the issues that we're discussing so please indicate it Marie I was particularly interested in what you said there John Lennon and I understand the limitations of the PVG but I do as a parent I think it's a bare minimum that I would expect anyone involved in a club and working with my children to have been PVG checked and I wonder if one of the issues is that there is a misunderstanding or a lack of clarity around who needs to be PVG checked I was interested in what you said about it's okay if they're not PVG checked so long as they're supervised by a coach and my understanding was that actually anyone who is involved in teaching and coaching sessions ought to be PVG checked I thought the type of people who were exempted from being PVG checked might be for example accountants who act as treasurers for the club rather than those who are directly active working with children whether supervised or not I wonder if you could give me some clarity around that I presume there was zero tolerance then I'm happy to start that one off but there's others are probably better placed to answer the detail but it comes around the definition of what's regulated work and that's where the child protection officers in the clubs who has assessed that and they're responsible for raising the necessary paperwork rightly so because they're the ones on the ground seeing who comes into their clubs, what they're doing what that looks like and as earlier colleagues mentioned recruitment processes are key to that but the PVG system as it is only allows for checks to be carried out on those doing regular regulated work as it's defined and there is a tool where they can assess that and see if the activity is actually regulated so that does account for some of the gaps where individuals are classed as working with children but it's not classed as a regulated activity as such Just on that point just also to say that this is further confused by the fact that it is an offence to request PVG for someone who's not in a regulated child care position so providers or service providers or sports agencies got to sort of thread that needle in terms of my understanding from the work I did on the voluntary issues unit of the implementation group was that in terms of supervision the regulated element comes into play if they do not normally have unsupervised contact with children and no reasonable expectation would be that they have unsupervised contact with children that's why we can have situations like poolside help and swimming clubs who are never going to be left in an unsupervised capacity if that can be guaranteed then they don't require that PVG check at that time Can I just clarify though that firstly we do define regulated rules and it goes beyond coaches we have a number of regulated rules that need to be checked and also clarify that the examples I've given are people that should be and will be checked we don't have a policy of you don't have to be checked we are probably err on the side of caution and we would check them, the only delay is disclosure Scotland it's with the volunteers in the clubs getting the individual, sitting down with them completing the form, getting the evidence getting the people to sign off the forms and submitting it, once it's submitted it's a very smooth process I must say I think it's back to a balanced proportion system again when you go back some years before PVG it was a bit unbalanced it was contact with children and it became too much a blanket affair so now I think whilst there is a review that Deputy First Minister has announced last year of PVG and that's underway disclosure Scotland is leading on that a process, that does give an opportunity to take into consideration some of these points about other types of roles and are they covered but I think we need to take real care about avoiding a situation where we start to go into contact with children to have to go through the checking process and Alex is absolutely right and in my experience in the 15 years we've operated it it's been more the case that the problems that were risen has been about the misuse of actually asking for information that was not entitled based on the role rather than people that are proven to have been a threat after having gone through the system and it's also a detail perhaps to share with you that it's not a crime not to put through even a regulated role through the system it's a crime if you actually have one of the three and a half thousand people that are on the bar list that's gone through that so that will also be something that's under consideration in the review but you're absolutely right that causes confusion and uncertainty amongst people about should everybody be covered so we do struggle and our role is to provide support or compliance and training and everything else and we do that but because of what was said earlier about the churn effect and people coming in and carrying their assumptions not least from the media coverage then that creates further confusion and uncertainty Can I further ask another potential barrier might be some of the evidence suggested earlier the cost of going through the process did I pick up correctly that there's a difference that volunteers can be PVG checked without incurring a cost I can answer that quickly and it's just that we are set up by government to enable those that have come through the charitable sector, the third sector volunteers in there are entitled to free checks through the disclosure services process not a cover for all volunteers so you'll have coaches in local authorities for instance and they are not afforded free checks and they have to fit into the paid basis through the local authority and there are examples where the volunteers are being asked to pay for their own checks in those circumstances which is another matter but if you've come through a charity and through Swin Scotland in Palestine you're covered for a free check John I wanted to broader observations if that's okay from a police in point of view and I'm really grateful for the opportunity to do that today I think it's really important to recognise that sport is a real force for good in our communities today I would hate for any of these discussions to lead to a position in which somehow sport is demonised clearly that can't happen I also wanted to acknowledge that movements over the years whether it's the child protection arrangements or whether it's the PVG scheme but in truth the question that really bothers me is could this happen again in another sport could the situation that we've seen in football happen again and sadly I believe it could and I think we need to consider that and really think carefully about that and I say that for a couple of reasons I think firstly we've got to accept that there's a risk in society today we've seen on many occasions those who would wish to sexually abuse children finding a way to do so finding a way to navigate their way around the systems and the processes that are put in place in order that they can infiltrate any social setting in which children gather whether that is a sports club whether it's a youth club or whether it's an online setting so that risk exists and we need to ask ourselves secondly does the environment that allowed the abuse to occur in football does it still prevail in society today and again sadly I think it does and we need to accept that so there's a number of things I think we need to do clearly there's a need to review PVG compliance I think that's been really compelling in the discussions this morning it seems to me that governing bodies that individual sports clubs need to urgently review the steps that they've got in place there may be a cause for some post legislative review as well perhaps that's a good idea but it seems to me we would be slightly naive if we were to think that that is some kind of silver bullet that that will stop child sexual abuse in Scotland I don't think that is the case what we do need therefore is a wider discussion about the culture in society that allows that to exist and it seems to me it's a culture in which we are appalled and really disappointed infuriated when we see reports of child sexual abuse in the media but the truth is we don't like to think about it or to talk about it when that's not the case my fear is that that builds a kind of wall of silence it's a wall of silence behind which survivors are often stigmatised child abuse isn't reported and those who would abuse children can prevail so we need to open the discussion beyond football beyond sport I think but sport is critical given it is that force for good and it seems to me that perhaps one of the things we need to do is to really talk about a long term preventative strategy in Scotland a strategy that can allow us all to think about individuals to think about communities and in particular to think about a sustained emotional effort because we need to get to a position in which we can talk openly about this Thank you I just want to say I wholeheartedly agree with those comments and I think it is important to say the measures that we've advocated in our evidence today we would not see them as a parisia they are steps that we possibly could make some improvements but that question about changing the culture of sport is a wider question about changing our culture as a society and in that sense football is a mirror to society because children have been abused in football and while the allegations that we know about are historic child sexual abuse is not child sexual abuse is happening today there are children in our school classrooms who are experiencing child sexual abuse and I believe that we should see that as unacceptable and we should speak about it and there should be openness that this is happening and it's happening to far too many children and that's the context of child sexual abuse in sport and no child we should be clear no child should have to experience such abuse and the harm that it does and the harm that can last a whole lifetime and we need to think seriously about what more we can do to prevent child sexual abuse and the way that we tolerate it in our society Richard sorry you went briefly George before Richard it was just really maybe a more general point and I don't think you can create that without a positive visualisation of children in the first place and as such I think that there's a danger psychologically of what you focus in on is vulnerability that you actually unintentionally accentuate that what we've got to have is a vision whereby we've got a participative society where a lot of adults are working with children professionally and voluntarily in safe and constructive fashions where the positive image of that is the thing that's at our forefront where there's a need to manage the risk and of course to do everything possible to avoid those that suffer but I think the way to do that is to create the bigger picture a positive picture rather than over focus on the negative okay Richard I agree with you there are a lot of people who are involved running clubs girls brigade boys brigade a lot of people who do a lot of good work and basically we have to concentrate on the problems not to make it out to be worse than what it is but can I turn to Mr Bailey again I know you answered part of my question to Clare Haughey but basically in your report you've been involved in the Public Petitions Committee P1319 improving youth football since March 2010 you've presented press for changes there've been positive movement from SFA and SPFL however there will be outstanding matters which the football authorities have already said that's proven in transients which led you to an overall assessment summed up in your most recent correspondence in the Public Petitions Committee you're basically saying you give credit to SFA and SPFL SPLF but you then go on and say external regulation has to be imposed on bodies which to my mind are either unwilling or incapable of taking appropriate action to safeguard the rights of children would you like to expand on that? that's a change of position actually because my first position at the petitions committee was that it's always best to have self-regulation and that's in fact what I was recommending to the committee at that time but since then there's matters where the SFA and SPFL have refused to make any movement even having reviewed it it becomes quite technical but it's about the contracts that children are held to at age 15 through 16 and 17 Fraser mentioned earlier the compensation scheme that operates within Scottish football and in the most recent evidence that Andrew McKinley and Neil Doncaster gave to the committee it was repeated several times that in their view the balance between the interests of the clubs and the interests of the children was striking the right balance and in my view it just isn't because all of the control of the children in terms of their access or their behaviour where they're signed with those clubs is within the club and the only bit that really has there's been positive movement on is this business of youth football and the creation of the posts within SFA so I applaud the guidance I applaud the procedures that they put in place but the culture is still that the clubs are in control of those children and they're not in any way minded to shift on that in fact when asked directly by the petitions committee Neil Doncaster said they have got no intention of changing that balance because in their view it would disincentivise the clubs to invest in youth football and it comes down to the investment in terms of how those clubs see those children they see them as a potential investment and therefore they want to try and reap some of the rewards of that and I'm afraid I don't normally talk in these terms at committee but it has been a really torturous process even to get to this stage just now so I've changed my position from self-regulation to one of external regulation I respect your view Mr Billion you want to encourage your perception of what government or committee or the SFA or whatever there are a lot of good people out there who are working with kids day in, day out and some of them actually feel as though they're being targeted my wife and my daughter run a girls' brigade and they've been checked and a lot of good people out there and basically what we've got to do, we've got to concentrate on the situation but I also agree with the point that Mr Matt Ford made that there is abuse and with children outside this so we've got to look at the whole so what would you as a commissioner what would you advocate you now have the floor to tell us what you would advocate in order to bring additional regulation or circumstances into this to try and eradicate it Okay I'm jumping to my evidence on Thursday but I agree first of all I mean I have to agree with the statements or the comments and observations with regard to the societal view of children and young people and the value that we place in them and of course nobody here would disagree that we actually change and improve on the value that we place on children and young people but specifically with regard to football I think that it does need external regulation and in fact it's not just in Scotland because there's currently a House of Commons committee is looking at the state of the English FA and there are very similar forces at play and some of the conclusions on that is that they are pressing the Government action in terms of how do we externally regulate the behaviour of the football clubs so I'll certainly be recommending that on Thursday the engagement of the Government with this particular issue may take various forums that hasn't been agreed in any shape or form because essentially the Government will I expect give evidence to the committee but in my view the current governance structures do not allow for the kind of change which I have been trying to press for and which I think is needed to ensure that children and young people do experience that cultural change of being better valued within the professional football clubs and please be care I'm talking about professional football clubs here because obviously there's matters which are much wider than this and other people have already commented on that yes we do need societal change but there are things that the professional football clubs as leaders could actually do you're an appointee of the Government no I'm not I'm an appointee of Parliament so I'm independent of Government so you're independent I just wanted to clarify that Mary Evans thank you not so much on that point but just on the broader points I welcomed both the comments from Matt and also from ACC Hawkins about the fact that abuse of children is much broader than in sport in fact from our own experience and from evidence most children are actually abused with intimate family relationships and in their own homes so in some ways sport is a reflection of a wider societal problem when we certainly see through our work with sport Scotland in safeguarding and sport that there has been much progress made over the last 15 years the allegations that were made are historic and whilst we're not complacent about the fact that they could and again of course they could I think there's much better awareness of the responsibility on adults to know what to do when and if they suspect that a child is at risk and also that the work that we've done to make sure that sports governing bodies have a clear set of minimum operating requirements and standards and that they know how to support affiliated clubs implement those plus get advice and support around training has made some progress and we've written evidence and I would also just like to make this point is that this is about culture and it is about leadership and it's about transparency so that we all take responsibility to ensure that whenever we're uncomfortable about the way that children are treated or viewed whether it's in sport or any other part of society that we're all taking responsibility to speak out on their behalf and call it out in a really open and transparent way the submission that we pulled together highlighted that when children do speak out we still have a situation where as has been noted in the historic issues when they talked about what happened to them when nobody listened or did anything about it and to all of the adult survivors of that historic abuse still talk about the lack of support available to them to recover they all talk about the lifelong impact it's had on their relationships their careers their lives throughout and we still have that same issue in Scotland today so with all the systems that we've talked about putting in place we still have an issue where when children do talk about the abuse that they've suffered they're still a huge delay in them accessing their support to recover and we would also like to make sure that the committee take that on board in its thoughts and findings Okay, clear? Thank you again, convener to go back to something that the commissioner mentioned there, you said specifically there about control of children a use of language which is very powerful and really quite disturbing when describing the relationship that children have with professional football clubs I think was specifically what you were talking about and I was wondering if perhaps the children's charities who are advocates for children's rights have a view on your use of language there and if they agree with the viewpoint you have Okay It's not something we have a specific experience of but of course share the concern that children have heard a lot about the dynamics within football and sports and how children, you know how compliance can be used children want to please, they want to be picked for the team they want to be a success that's not something that we have particular that children's rights need to be respected wherever they're involved in community activities be it sport or otherwise and also that empowering children and parents to be able to question the relationships, the power dynamics within those relationships would be incredibly important I think we've come a long way as we've previously said but there's clearly much still to be done Mark, you ought to come in on that point I suppose again we don't have detailed knowledge of what's going on in professional football clubs but what I would say is that I spoke earlier about the reality that children are being sexually abused and our children right now many children across Scotland who have been abused sexually and haven't been able to speak to anybody and that's a reality but the wider context for that that has to tell us something about how we value children about how difficult it is for children who have been abused to feel that they can speak out and they will be listened to and they will be heard so my comment is in response to the question is that we have to think very carefully about the way that we show that we think about children and we put children at the centre and we think about their wellbeing and their protection and that manifests itself in many ways including I do agree with the point that we need to talk about children positively but that's part of realising their rights and it's not just to think about them as vulnerable but they are wholly dependent on adults for their protection and so I would agree that where we see power imbalances and are reluctance to take on board that children's wellbeing should be the centre of people's thinking that that's a matter of concern Yes, Elon? On the I suppose child protection in its widest points I think it would be useful to note that where there are concerns we do have a positive situation in Scotland just now where we have a shared responsibility and accountability between local authorities, the NHS and the police in terms of the actions that can be taken around that child when an issue is identified which is underpinned by getting it right for every child principles which were mentioned earlier by the SFA and also run through Children First training I believe and I think that that is a policy which Scotland as a nation has worked very hard towards in terms of identifying the wellbeing of children inclusion is one of the things that Harry was mentioned earlier on when the SFA gave evidence and I do think that there is a need to recognise the widest protection that's available to children and what is in place to support them and I think that collective responsibility is something that is positive in Scotland at the moment Ivan? Yeah, it's just a couple of points of clarification from earlier on and Tam talked about I applaud the work you're doing with professional football clubs because this situation where they can stop the kids playing for their school team and another team where they're under their controller like is something I think has always been a problem but just to be clear talking specifically in terms of the control aspect that Clare Holly talked about earlier on the balance of power thing you're primarily focused there on the professional football clubs which obviously is quite a small percentage of the total number of kids that are playing football obviously are you talking about it in a wider sense than that? Just to be clear they can now play for their school teams Yeah, which is great, yeah as a result of last year that's six years after the raising of the petition Yeah, absolutely The aspects that still cause concern are about children who are aged 15 who will be held to contracts at the behest of the club because of some notion that their talents may blossom between 15 and 17 and the club essentially would want them on their boots There's also issues in regard to minimum wage about whether the clubs are actually paying minimum wage my interest is for children who are under the age of 18 so it's in 16-17 year olds and there are now growing concerns on my part which I've raised with the SFV and the SPFL about agents who are unregulated who don't really require any checks at all other than a declaration who we don't really know the extent of it because nobody's properly looking into it and maybe as Andrew says the review will actually shed some light on that No, I understand and I appreciate what you're doing there but just to the point that focus is very much on professional football clubs but it's a very small number of children we're talking about I just don't feel the impression that that's something that you're talking about in terms of all kids and even within professional football clubs they freely give up their time and the game relies on all of that but they are the leaders they set the standards or they should set the standards for everybody else so they have a particular responsibility but they also are operating in a field where money becomes a very valuable commodity and in fact so do the children if they're showing any talent so it's those issues which really the petitions committee will be grappling with later this week but my strong view is that the football authorities have gone as far as they are willing or capable within their structures in terms of that balance of the rights of children versus the investment of the clubs That's clear, I just want to clarify that That's within professional football What I want to make was round about the issue of people working or supporting the voluntary activity who aren't PVG checked Is there a great area there and I can maybe clarify this for me where if you're a parent you come along to watch the sport but before you know it you're helping out in some way shape or form and you've got to watch the kids playing football and before you know it somebody's given you a flag and told you to run up and down or the offside rail and if you can across the line at that point or you're giving the kids a run back to back home or whatever Is there an issue there about the clarification of where that line is I think obviously you want to encourage parents to be undertaking that You want to create a culture where people are helping out and you build relationships social capital if you like trusted relationships between people and you then have to apply the system of PVG as it's designed to about once you move into roles which are regulated and have a degree of trust and responsibility then you move beyond just a parent helping into the compliance of the protection system there's other things you know there's a duty of care I would say there's a legal duty of care I've discussed this with a solicitor as a parent some kids from place from A to B then you've got a duty of care to drive carefully and take care of them so there's other kind of protections that can come into play here but I think the tragedy is if people feel I can't really help out because I've not got a PVG and well people suspect me and so on and that's the toxic part that we've got to try and avoid at all costs whilst at the same time be aware as David Little had said about the common sense knowledge and people talking with each other about whether or not an individual's showing the science have been somebody that's a danger and I think we're very capable of picking it up not least by children being able to be talking as well about what their experiences are so it's going to be a difficult balancing act to ensure participation in the context where we manage the risks Can I ask the police representative in relation to people coming forward have you seen a spike in people coming forward from other sports from other areas of society following the obviously the media interest in this and what's happened So we've seen now 130 plus referrals in relation to football since November those are people with information about child sexual abuse in football and also those who wish to report that it has happened to them so we've seen a real spike in relation to football not in relation to other sports in truth and if I'm being honest that causes me some concern to the culture I described previously where we still haven't got a suggestion in which information is being brought forward where those who have been abused feel confident that they'll be listened to so an increase in relation to football but not in relation to other sports OK Marie did you want a final point on adults Yes I guess I was struck as I was reading through all of the submissions that there was a great deal more protection for children than there was for vulnerable adults in terms of the law and I just wondered if people around the table thought that that was an anomaly that needs to be looked at or again I'm conscious that we really don't want to discourage people from getting involved in coaching and encouraging everyone in society to participate in sport but it seemed that there was a disparity there and I wonder if people had comments on that What we would say on that is that particularly adults with learning disabilities who are involved in sport and community activity as we want them to be more engaged in ordinary community activities there's no doubt that there are additional risks there and that it can be harder to get into some of the nuances that we heard about earlier around power imbalance whether or not relationships are exploitative or consensual so I think there is some similar factors that play out amongst the sexual exploitation of vulnerable adults that we can see in within children and we do need to think about how we protect that particular group and we can learn a lot from some of the systems and processes that we've put in place but I welcome this idea of proportionate protection for most people for most of us to be connected to our communities and to activities within those communities whether it's through sport or other activities it's incredibly important and acts for a lot of people as a protective factor there is of course a risk there but we all send our children off every day to play with people in their stay overnight in friends houses we have to be proportionate that we allow children and all the rest of us to connect with each other and live in a community where we value each other and what we can bring and not shut things down so much that we actually end up having unintended consequences which are also harmful so it's about robust and proportionate systems but the biggest thing that I think we've heard today is that it's about attitudes, culture values the way that we view rights and that we have to get a lot more comfortable as a society and being able to discuss these things in a really open and transparent fashion make victims feel ashamed or blamed or guilty about what's happened to them OK what I was going to do just to finalise give everybody 10 seconds or 20 seconds each if they want just to make a final statement or point for us to consider when we finish this session and for us to stimulate our further discussion so I'll do that for the people who've been invited and not for the members or we'll be here all day Kim Thank you I guess from my point of view there are probably a couple of different things and it's been a really interesting discussion today and thanks to the committee for inviting us along I think fundamentally our members the governing bodies all support and hopefully there's some reassurance to the committee in there both the principle and the culture that the wellbeing of every child is at the heart of everything we all do and that it's everyone's responsibility to ensure we all share but again is shared amongst our membership so hopefully there's some reassurance in there I think today we've also talked a little bit about the minimum operating requirements and there's been a lot about PVG both in this session and before that from the experience of our members the minimum operating requirements have been developed by the industry experts our colleagues at safeguarding and sport and that's a nationwide systematic approach to trying to make sure that we raise the standard of making sure for our children and what they do and again I know that in partnership with Sportscotland our colleagues at Children First are working hard to see how we can further raise that so again there's some assurance there that this is a nationwide systematic approach there's a lot happening here and I just want to provide a little focus on that I think again we've talked a little bit about access and not barriers and I think that's really important the opportunity that our members work towards is that every person should have the opportunity to enjoy their sport and be in a fun and safe environment so that opportunity remains at the heart of everything that we do is there more that we can do quite possibly and there are experts in that area more than I am but again I think that accessibility and that lack of barrier remains a primary focus and part of that again we've heard a little bit today about the benefits and sport as a force for good I think was one of the phrases used and that's something I think again we must all recognise both in the work that the committee does in relation to today but more broadly there are a huge number of benefits to individuals, to society and to your Scottish population let alone budgets if we're all that bit more active so that we don't want to lose sight of that certainly convener in anything else the last part I think I just wanted to pick up on was a huge part of the work of our members isn't in working with volunteers so there are 195,000 people who volunteer in sport in Scotland that's more than in any other area so yes I know that George will probably clarify that it's youth work but a huge number of those are through junior sports clubs so there are 195,000 people there so we can week out to do something that they love that their families love, that their children love or that they just love seeing people involved in so the proportionate notion that has come up today I think is at the heart of anything we need to continue to do it's about enabling and supporting people to volunteer which enable and support people to be active that's something that is at the heart of civic society so I just don't want to lose some of those principles convener as part of that so apologies that was probably longer than by 20 seconds probably 10 times longer but anyway not a worry sorry I did intend bringing Miles in before so I forgot so I'm going to bring him in it was more around the issue of culture because I think every single person who has been here today and the panel before has said they need to change the culture now to some extent with the independent review which SFA will be undertaking hopefully that will help change their culture but as ACC Hawkins has said today other people coming forward from other sports isn't happening so we're going to have to have independent inquiries coming in the future when we find out for example if this has been taking place in swimming widely in the past historically and I think that's where how are we actually going to change that culture is key but to some extent do you feel there is a lack of movement to change a culture we've heard issues specifically with contracts but widely for different sports do they not want to be seen maybe to be looking at this in this current context which the football association has been brought to have to do I think there's been mention of transparency mention of leadership mention of collective responsibility and that's a responsibility that we share that people share way beyond football I was just actually thinking and preparing for my 10 seconds one of the things I think that's really important is language and calling things what they are because if you don't you can let people off the hook people think it's not important so control is a really good example I think time's right to talk about control we've spoken about child sexual abuse we haven't spoken about the rape of children but that's what we're talking about so this is a wider responsible I would encourage the committee to be really ambitious in your deliberations I think we have got an opportunity to highlight child sexual abuse in Scotland but we need an ambitious preventative strategy so we need to focus on football we need to focus on policies that's important but we need to have bigger and greater ambition than that collectively just very quickly is there any organisations round the table today being asked to help shape the terms of the SFA's independent review anybody yep anybody else nope just children first okay you've now got 10 seconds it will be 10 thank you very much for inviting me and also for I think two really intelligent questions dare I say that thank you very much you sound surprised very thought provoking and I think in a sense I hope you continue with that would be delighted to continue the learning from this kind of debate and dialogue but I do think there's a bit of a crossroad so whether or not you look at a system based on fear or a system that's based on trust and I think we've got to go for a trust building approach at the core of where we go into future just like to reiterate my colleagues comments and say thanks very much for this opportunity today I think I would like to finish by saying there is a robust system for safeguarding children in sport in Scotland it's comprehensive it's been developed over many years through partnership approach and it does continue to develop and strengthen based on good practice and legislative changes this is multi layered we've talked a lot about PVGs today that's just one component of it the education training processes and procedures we have around child protection are the important components that will make steps towards changing the culture that we have in Scotland in this area the system does and I think can react positively to some of the issues that have arisen and sport Scotland along with our Scottish Government bodies of sport and our partners at Ch