Okay. Well, I suppose we can start now. So once again, good morning or good afternoon. Well, it depends on the time of day that your, if your time's on the place where you're following us. I'm Antonio Teixeira. I'm a professor at the Open University of Portugal. And I'm also a Senior Eden Senior Fellow. And it's really a pleasure and an honor to welcome you to this session. Actually, it's the last session of the Eden Open Education Week 2022. And so it's a kind of a special one. It's a celebration of the Open Education Week. It's a celebration of Eden and the Eden community. It's a celebration also of Europe. And it's a celebration of our common heritage. So in a sense, we have a lot to celebrate today. As you know, throughout the week, the Open Education Week had been focusing the discussions on several aspects of what is Open Education and what is the practice of open learning and open education. And this, one of the most important aspects involved in open education is the flexibility, apart from the openness, of course. And one of the main contributions he has, Open Education has done, achieved in the last, last decades, has been to increase the connection, the interconnection between formal, non-formal, and informal learning. And in this sense, the interconnection between formal education, especially in higher education, but also in other levels of the education systems, with non-formal education. Museum education, this one of them, has been increased and this has been, in a way, promoted and fostered by open education. And how museum education has been embracing open education in the last years, and in particular, in the context of the, it has been accelerated in the context of the pandemic. Well, but before we open the discussion, let me just say also another word related to the standing of Europe, of Eden in this special historical moment in Europe. As you know, we are living, well, we're just living one difficult period because of COVID-19. And now it seems we're entering another difficult period because of the war in Europe. Eden stands for a set of values. It was founded on the number of values that relate to the European common heritage, values that relate with openness, with freedom, with inclusion, with dialogue, and with cooperation. And in those, in that sense, Eden was, as it's founded in 1991, exactly in a historical moment in Europe where everything was possible. And we thought that a new age of cooperation, collaboration has started in Europe. Eden was, well, one of the, actually, one of the examples and one of the expressions of that feeling and that movement in Europe. And so Eden stands with those values, keeps standing with those values. And in this particular moment, we celebrate them because they're probably more needed than ever. And this relates also with museums and museum education. Museums are also an important institution in our way of life, in our in our civilization, let's say, because they're also a place where we celebrate, preserve, and develop our common heritage. And so it's in the combination, in the crossing of those two important aspects, of course, the set of values that make us Europeans and also what represents the contribution of open education and museum education that we've set the discussion for today. And the webinar, as it was announced, has this main topic for discussion, how open education is contributing and will continue to contribute to the digital transformation of the museum learning experience, exactly in that sense of helping promote the wider participation opportunities, having promote inclusion, having promote democracy and freedom in that sense and well-being in that sense as well. To be able to speak about these topics, we have a wonderful panel of experts and friends as well, which I'll start introducing just now. First of all, we'll have Dr. Antonella Porche, she's a she's a full professor of the University of Modern Reggio Emilia in Italy. She's an Eden Senior Fellow, as you know, and she currently holds the role of a full professor in experimental pedagogy at the University of Modern Reggio Emilia, and she's also directing Intellect, which is the Center for Research into Museum Education, well-being and teaching technology. She's also the head of the postgraduate courses Heritage Education Digital Technologies and Museum Education General Aspects, plus the postgraduate course Advanced Studies in Museum Education. Well, she coordinates national units within the European project frameworks, and she has been chairing the International Economic Committee, it's dealing with distance learning as well. Welcome, Antonella, it's a pleasure having you here. We have also Dr. Covedonga Rodrigo Sanjuan, while she's there. She's also a full professor at National University for Distance Education in Spain, UNED, as it's most commonly known, which is based in Madrid. She has a PhD in Telecommunications Engineering from Polytechnical University of Madrid, and she's currently Deputy Director for Research, Transfer and Investing at the School of Informatics at UNED. Well, she has a very long curriculum, but you can access in the web page, but let me just point out that she has held various academic positions, namely being Pro Vice Chancellor of Technology, Deputy Vice Director of Applied Technology and Study Centers, and Director of the Research Chair of Digital Inclusion. This is a very important feature of her curriculum, and she has done a wonderful job running this chair. This chair is funded by the Vodafone Spain Foundation. She has a research focus on accessibility, interoperability, and recommendation aspects in autonomous access to educational resources, repositories, e-learning platforms, audiovisual platforms, and mobile applications. She's also a member of ANOR in Quality Standards in UNED, and she has a lot of expertise in quality assurance, and not just expertise also. A lot of practice in conducting research and evaluation, and namely one of the projects she has been more connected with is the ExxonSeal and Opened Labeling for MOOCs that is in the framework of EADTU, also our other European association related to this topic. She's an Eden Fellow and a member of the IE Education Chapter and the GOGN Network on Opened Professional Resources. Let me also introduce to Antonia Liguri. She is a senior lecturer at Longbourn University in the UK, and this is also another form of inclusion. The UK is still part of Europe. There's no doubt about it, and Eden is a proof of that. Antonia is a senior lecturer in Applied Storytelling at the Longbourn University. Her academic background is in history and computer science and this combination, and since 2008 she has been involved in a variety of international research projects to develop aiming at developing tools and methods to foster innovation education, mostly exploring the role of storytelling in today's digital world, investigating and trial ways of using digital storytelling as a participatory methodology for interdisciplinary research. She has been in the past seven years, her research has been focusing on three main strands, applied storytelling on environmental issues, digital storytelling in cultural or heritage education, storytelling and urban design. More recently she has joined HEART, which is Healing, Education and Innovation Research Therapy, and she has been exploring digital storytelling as a therapeutic intervention as well. Well, before moving to the UK, she is an Italian by birth, and she was the coordinator of the multimedia department at the BAICR Systema Couture in Italy, a consortium of five cultural institutions with the aim of contributing to the enhancement of historical and cultural heritage through the use of innovative methodologies. Finally, last but not least, we have Angelis Sanchez, she is a senior lecturer at the National Distance Education University in Spain as well, and she is the director of the Chair in Distance Education at UNED. Well, Angelis, besides being also a very good friend, she's a great expert in open and distance education. She has a whole, she has a PhD in psychology, but she electros, and because of that she electros at the Faculty of Psychology at UNED. Apart from the Chair, which I've already mentioned, she has a long expertise in methodological innovation in open distance education, and she has served in many positions at her university as such. She has been the director of the Institute for Distance Education at UNED, also the Deputy Director for Academic Staff Training at UNED as well. She is also the Director of the Ibero-Bioamerican Course for Distance Education, and she's a specialist and an expert in OVR, having also coordinated the first Latin American MOOC called Ibervirtual UNED Common, Basic Disruptances. She has also collaborated in the development production, design and development of many other MOOC courses, and she's a member of the UNED Group of Innovation Smart, CG, Smart and Adaptive Learning and Teaching Crowding Group. And she has coordinated a number of also other innovation courses at UNED and in the framework of European projects as well. She is the Chair of the Student Support Field of Expertise of the Empowered Project at EDTU, and a member of the team of reviewers at EDTU as well for the EXLANS project and label. Welcome Achilles as well. And now, starting the discussion, we'll first have a look on two, well three actually, three particular projects which are significant in crossing these fields of open education, promoting inclusion and accessibility, and also the development of museum education. And I'll start by giving the floor to Antonella for a short presentation on the Inclusive Memory Project that an European funded project that has just started this year. Antonella, have a floor. Thank you so much, Antonio. Thanks to Eden. You know how dear Eden is to me, so I'm so glad to be here with you, as you said, with this large community of friends. And the panel as well is made of very, very dear friends, so it's really nice to be with all of you, especially as you were saying in this moment of fear and really difficult time we have been living. Anyway, I don't want to steal too much time, but just to introduce briefly the project. I'll try to be very, very brief. So as you said, the project is called the Inclusive Memory. Actually, we focus on a specific perspective that is that of the use of museums for well-being and health through the creation of a new shared memory. The partnership is made and composed. Can you put the full screen here? I see the full screen. So let's start again. Thank you. What happens? Okay, so the Inclusive Memory and the title that I just read. So the focus is on well-being and health through the use of museums, of museum objects in particular. As you can see here, the partnership is made by the University of Moderna and Reggio Emilia, which I represent, Zetema, Progetto Cultura, which is a company working with museums in the Rome area in particular. So these are the two Italian partners. Università Nacional d'Educazione a Distanza on Ed, and we have two main representatives here participating also in the project. Università d'Aberta from Lisbon, and of course Antonio knows it very well and is part of the partnership as well. Ascoli Islands University in Iceland, which can boast an interesting track record and interesting experience in the use of museums to fight health problems, especially in elderly people. In Teralia, that is a non-profit organization in Greece, in Athens in particular, and their work through heritage of course is addressed to promote inclusion, especially for migrants and people, asylum seekers actually. And then the Instituto Català della Saluta based in Barcelona, Spain, where they developed the objectives of training physicians and caregivers. So everyone who is involved in care, in medical care, to support and to of course facilitate the healing of people in bad health. So this is the partnership and all together with different kinds of profiles, we try to work on the promotion and the building of a common shared memory realized through a museum-based social inclusive system. The keywords that are guiding us through the whole process are the ones that you can see here highlighted in purple, art, health and well-being. So the idea is based on the cooperation between different kinds of higher education institutions, the ones that of course are part of the consortium organizing and managing the project, but also others that we hope we could reach through events like the one we are carrying out today, health and social care institutions and museums. It is exactly this strategy that we would like to perform over the project in order to make these museum experiences really valuable in order to facilitate inclusion, accessibility and especially health and well-being. There are different issues there. They need to use, as you were saying at the very beginning, Antonio, museums at places with no borders actually, places where the the testimony of human civilisation is there and where every one of us can recognize their own history creating a new memory all together. This concept is at the basis of our project, so the idea again is to create a new social system where of course different new teaching and learning paths, new teaching and learning attenuaries are built, are built also with the help of technology and are built with the help of critical use of technology. So our partnership is working exactly on this concept where every kind of teaching and learning proposal, every kind of involvement proposal can be supported by technology but the technology should be thought tested and addressed to the different aims that we try to pursue over the project. Here you have a series of results that we need to reach by the end of the project. Every one of us of course is responsible for one of the results but the concept here, the idea is to have all the participants taking direct and active action through all the different project results. As you might see, I'm not going to read the whole slide but as you might see from a very quick reading, the idea is to reflect on the use of technology for inclusive educational activities within the museum context but the use of blended teaching and learning activities, the use of MOOC, the use of open resources is at the core of our action and of the project in its entire development. So of course our focus is consistent with the topic that we are going to discuss today. There will be different workshops so whoever is interested please keep in touch with us but I think that through Eden, through the association we will be able to involve many different participants, many different subjects interested in our work. We will be in different places of course within the countries involved in the project but also at Eden's conferences so we'll have the chance to meet with you all when the different conferences will take place over the project time. As far as the outcomes are concerned, as you can see again it will work as far as technology is concerned again in different ways. We will focus on the use of OERs and MOOCs of course but we will also work on the technology that could be more useful within the museum framework within the museum structures to have more fruitful interactions among the different participants or users as I like to call those accessing the museum. Of course we will work on video storytelling and on the realization of a permanent database where video storytelling are stored and here we have one of the most important experts all over the world as regards storytelling and Antonia and so she will tell us more. We will also focus on the use of assessment tools in order to measure the impact of the different activities that we are going to develop through the project. I think this is a very very urgent very important point because we need to know where we are going so we will share also with all of you the tools that we are going to develop and we will work through a specific methodology that is the handy methodology which is consistent with what I was saying related to the use of a new model for assessment and impact measurement because as you can see it's based on a series of actions analysis design development implementation but always related to the evaluation procedures carried out. The other aspect which is important to understand the issue of inclusion and how inclusion is basically developed throughout the project is the ABCD approach which is an approach that as you can see from the acronym is asset based community development so it's related to an approach that works on what is already within the community and tries to value it at its most. I won't go deeper here because time I know is very limited so I thank you for your attention and of course we are all there available for your questions. I'm really sorry you know I've been sorry so much for Brexit for many different reasons many friends and colleagues we have been cooperating for many years are there and Antonia is one of them and this project was started actually with some UK partners that could not be part of this of this group but we managed in you know working anyway with them under many other different opportunities occasions and I'll be so glad if Antonia and others actually we have already two evaluators from UK will anyway be part of our action through the various different objectives that we and activities that we are going to develop. Thank you so much. Thank you Antonia and now I'll give the floor to Covedonga and to Angelis I suppose we'll start by Angelis for a presentation on two other projects so we have a project that is just starting and so we have already these understanding of what is the structure of the project and what will deliver and now we'll see two examples of ongoing projects projects that have already produced many outputs and have a focus on also on inclusion and accessibility so we will explore this idea of the museums with no borders museums with the new kind of museums which do not impose a story do not impose a written memory but basically our space is for collaboratively discover a common story and this is something that is in a sense also explored by these two other projects Angelis and Covedonga you have the floor. Antonia can you stop sharing please. Okay thank you. Well in our case I think I'm going to start with our presentation we are going to share the presentation from Onerd's side and the first thing is to say that well it is a pleasure to me to be with all of you this afternoon Antonia thank you very much for the invitation and to be with our friends and colleagues to share about this interesting multidisciplinary topic so let's see if I can share can you see now the presentation. Yes can you put it on. Yeah okay okay okay so well the topic here we want to to talk about is in which areas United is working on this on this field so it's this idea of opening up art and museums for all so the first thing let me introduce our university because I think it is important to see our scope in this field also of open education and distance education. We are just in the year or 50th year of experience of and life so we are celebrating 50 year and this is a very special year for all of us so we are the only public university in Spain at the national level with online learning but supported by a network of local centers all over the country and also abroad and we have been always been a distance education university and as such we can say that we are a mega university and with more than 200,000 students and in this way these undergraduate students well have reached this employability ranking and the high top employability ranking in 2020 but we have very special students I mean they are adult and part time students such as in the other distance education university and we also have been working not only in degrees and masters and PhD but since many years ago we are working in live long learning programs and we opened also our our offer in 2008 with the open course where platform and then to moxing a open unit since 2012 so we have been working in open education since then. The other thing and we have to stress is that we are a university that are very much focused on those people that have special needs such as those that with disabilities and those that are in prison so these are part of the social values of our university that is to give the opportunity to get to through universities to higher education and studios to everyone. We are members of the most valued distance education organizations and all like organizations such as the 82 within ISD in the Latin America field and ISD and we have the 82 quality label that's that's I mean for saying that we are very much compromised with as I said with this objective of giving the opportunity to as I mean as the also as the number four of the sustainable development goals says that we have to give the opportunity to as much people as we can to reach higher levels of education but coming to this point of being open and inclusive we had to think about the fears and facts of our university in diversity and so we have to say that we have the regarding the the country I mean in Spain we have the 40% of students with disabilities with functional diversity in Spain and the 4% of our students around 9000 in our university are people with this functional diversity. Also when we talk about open resources 16% of users declare they have functional diversity as well so these are people that need well a special attention and actions to make them or to make that all the resources the dietary resources that are available for them. Well so our university and especially the team that covalids is very much focused on universal accessibility and social I mean inclusion in our field but I don't want to forget that we are also focused on as I said before to those people that are in prison because also not only talking about higher education but also talking about the accessibility to art or to museums is something I had to take into consideration when we think about the necessities of these people. So this is our team in INADOG this is a group in the university although we also belong to different groups of research and innovation but we gather together in this INADOG group also supported by the UNESCO chair in distance education in the university and we are a multidisciplinary team because we gather together the expertise and experience in open and distance education on the psychological side and well-being engagement and on the technological side all those things that are related to inclusions such as technology acceptance, disability, digital humanities, natural language processing and overall the quality assurance of all that. So coming to the point of the museums well as UNESCO has just very recently appointed after the pandemic this is even a more important issue because museums have shown over the pandemic the relevance and the goodness they can give to the population the global population and as it has been shown during the pandemic. So even now UNESCO is calling these green museums of the world together to reflect on the future so I think it is a very important issue now to reflect about all those things that we are talking about now. Our group concerning the two projects that have been developed and concerning or regarding museums are two projects focused on opening museums but making them more inclusive through digital resources and digital education. So the first thing or the first idea was making museums open and inclusive so that means to reinventing museums so that no one is left aside or left out but that means well on the one hand that we all know that museums are becoming more open and open even more after the pandemic to the world because of the digital possibilities and the digital resources opening all the resources they have. So we can now get access to the best museums in all over the world in a digital way because all the open resources they have put but sometimes they are not really open I mean sometimes you have to pay for this virtual visit to the museums but anyway I mean as the International Journal of Inclusive Museums has stressed they say well now nowadays I mean there is no collectible object and no experience that cannot be digitalized so it can be offered through digital means of representation but on the other hand well we can open our digitalized resources in the museums in a sense but that doesn't mean that they are inclusive. So the thing here the thing that this group has been working on is to make this digital object and digitally digitalized art resources to be more inclusive and accessible to everyone. The second thing we are focused on and it is more related to the current project with Antonella is the role that art has on health and well-being which is another approach I mean that is very much related to the previous one but that concerns also the whole population. So in this sense well we all know and the psychological researchers stress very much that the arts keep and promotes resilience and flourish in psychological growth in people and this is something that we have a lot of research behind all of that and on my side because I'm a psychologist and I work on the side of positive psychology the appreciation of beauty and excellence is one of the 24 human strengths that contribute to flourishing to human flourishing happiness and well-being. So museums have a lot to do in this sense and a very recent article stresses that art museum visitation really we have evidence that it increases well-being and reduce ill-being in human beings. Also well there is a lot of things going around this issue and there are recent papers recent reports as the OECD and the International Council of Museums has said that well the museums have to introduce this perspective of well-being because well it has to be an objective of the museums too because it has to be proved to be very beneficial for the human beings. So the first project Musacpes was a project on museology and social integration and it was related to make the cultural heritage of the museum the private museum available or accessible to groups with special accessibility needs that were blind, deaf and inmate and well that should be made through museographic discourses that was a multidisciplinary team very large one and technological developments. So we wanted to work on this idea of art for all and with a multi-sensorial approach at this technology acceptance model that Koa is going to talk afterwards. Well we work a lot during these years in detecting the specific needs of an interest of the target groups to create different applications Koa is going to show also what our group developed at the time and to promote this international network in giving then well we work on different issues we did seminars training sessions there was an international conference that Antonella was there in this conference too and it was a very I think very interesting project in the end with we can see you can see here that was the university university competence university autonomous unit working in that with as I said huge diversity of profiles but our group together with all these more than 80 researchers and eight researchers work in on some specific things and that were this were to create inclusive experiences to share and I want to just be focused now in one of the things I love the most from the the project that was to create experiences multi-sensorial approach and multi-sensorial approach for everyone I mean not just for people with a special special special needs but to to see how we could present art under a multi-sensorial approach so you could touch hear taste smell and so everyone could have some experience with the five senses that was success with the five senses and brother museum with the five seasons and we developed different types of seminars and each one focused on one of the senses for instance the words if we talked about touching well we had explanations of experts about sculptures in paintings in which touch was very much what was very important but also there in the session they were the possibility of touch things so they were blind participants for instance and we could approach them to what we were talking about by touching that was the same for instance that regarding well the case tasting things so we talked about well all the tasted things that are in art for instance in paintings and we had also the experience a real experience of some meal that were that was in on a painting and was made in to be tasted by the audience or music I mean there is the Haydn music in many paintings and was a group that was working on making this Haydn music real and and and to to to play the music that was in on the paintings and to make this multi-sensorial experience as I said in this sense with music and also when not smell I mean to smell all those things that are on painting so this that was an approach to see that we can have an approach an inclusive approach to art in different ways that we can feel not only those people that have disabilities but everyone can feel the art with the five senses we work of course with open educational resources that are there available and regarding the different topics that were developed in musak this and well we also were in in the social media event and I'm going to give the floor to my colleague cova thank you thank you unless cova you have the floor come okay yeah okay so regarding technology we we in this big group of in a dog we are also some engineers so one colleague an arcia that is not with us today unfortunately she developed a model um to to um to show how semantic technologies can link with open-linked data coming up from the museum so we developed a prototype for helping historians to develop stories and gather automatically related objects that can be found in the open-linked data world uh we also uh developed some surveys because in this project we developed some mobile applications that i'm going to show you uh in a while so we first developed a survey based on the technology acceptance model um in order to to predict uh how you know this uh these mobile applications could be perceived uh of their usefulness and also of the easy of use so we developed a very um big survey we had nearly 300 uh answers and um we were just focused on on the use of what we were developing in this in this context so about the use of mobile devices we wanted to know about you know the specific use in people with disabilities so we asked them about you know how much uh they were were uh in the common use of tablets or smartphones and so they all use most of the uh at least in spain we we have um the own foundation that helps a lot all the users with disabilities to you know to have their own devices and mobiles and also very well personalized so um that was not an issue and we also asked about the implications of you know the easy of connectivity because if you want to um do you know some itineraries for example within the museum so you you need to to have some wireless connections and and also some um disabilities um independent on your disability uh maybe the connection via NFC for example technologies this is very um good for them you know to to get some augmented reality information for example of our navigating uh also we asked about the attitude uh towards the inclusion through gamification activities uh and um it was a point that we saw that there were not really a conduit of this kind of technologies and there was a lot of confusion about uh virtual reality and augmented reality technologies so uh yeah we decided that there were a lot of uh you know future work to to do on that so as uh angeles mentioned um before we worked on developing some kind of multi-sensorial multi-sensorial training itineraries inside the museum so um we tried to you know make all kinds of things uh you know all put together and trying to make a like a really engaging user experience that was our our objective our main objective so we kind of developed um some learning activities that could be developed in the museum and also out of the museum and connecting with the social network for example so we started with the this um painting in in musel de prado la anunciación and uh we uh tried to abstract like like a starting point of the from the painting and so we took up so some main characters right to relate all the different objects that appear in the painting and relate them with with the senses so we we start to develop like a narrative elaboration of storytelling uh of the painting and thinking also on on on blind people and so we finally prepare multimedia script that was inserted in the in the mobile applications and finally we add the content the the this uh speak local locations and and also the ambience sounds and and the gamification so um yeah we tried to gather all the um all the aspects uh and and very precise on which gamification you know and related to what part of the painting and where to to smell and and where to make the user with the mobile app to stop and then and maybe touch something or go to uh some external location for example the botanic garden and try to find out you know the some of the uh of the uh of the flowers or you know the plants that could be inside the the the painting now so here you can see how it looked like um we with the with the mobile devices you could you have to you know focus on the wireframe that looked like the uh the painting and suddenly the 3D dimension figure appeared so uh uh we could just uh you know try of uh moved it around and take a look you know inside this very very nice 3D three three dimension um figure and and we also uh developed some uh tactile and and also freely printed uh resources so we developed some puzzles and I don't know some you know nest puzzles and things to to to start to have a good time you know and play around with the um with with the complete idea of the um of the painting and we also developed some stuffed silhouettes and and some really reproductions that can be also touched you know for the blind people uh and we that was our main work was the devoted to this uh La Nufiación painting but we also did other experiments small experiments uh we took one uh painting from Goya and we produced a small um mobile application but devoted to users with cognitive disabilities so we focused on this um uh kind of a children type of drawings and also the easy reading aspect um we developed another uh prototype for trying to use the beacons uh I'm not sure if you are aware of these IoT uh elements that can you know give they are wireless elements that can be placed uh close to the paintings and they can also give some augmented uh reality information to to the user um and we also uh end up with another um mobile prototype uh focused on on another uh painting from from Goya and also trying to make this was more an engineering um prototype for for the framework to make you know to kind of help us to develop different kind of uh specific uh mobile applications for different paintings okay so this was just more like a like a framework for a template for developing other mobile applications and um and the other um uh project we wanted to talk about is the spectrum project we are uh this year ending it it's about making adjustments uh to the museum environment to help them to be more autism friendly uh so we are developing some guidance for for helping all the museums or staff from the museums uh for achieving this um we focused on the like lived experience uh we understand that the users with um without using uh go to the museums such as any other people so they go with the parents with their relatives their families their friends so we want to involve them all at the various stage of the the process and you know try to give them some guidance uh how to um make the setup of the museums more comfortable for for these people and avoid you know the segregation of these users uh you know aside and in in some places so um we um we thought about developing uh a MOOC and as part of the project um as Angelis mentioned at Junete we've been very fond of open education movement so uh we had already joined uh uh all the open uh uh yeah the ideas of the MOOCs and and and also uh open coursework uh since the 90s uh we also believe from the importance of developing open resources with creative common lessons license so we have uh this unit at the airport uh with more than 200 open courses since 2012 and some of them are already in English not only in Spanish but we um we find this a nano MOOC as a nano learning experience for for spectrum it can be maybe devoted to to museum staff so we just wanted to give the participants the opportunity to explore and learn uh key competency on on this um museum friendly sorry autism friendly museums uh our portal is based on the edx open code so um we have you know uh this this uh idea of a very tiny tiny um learning activity with a workload of maybe 10 hours and and of course completely self-paced in the project we have been also delivering other uh products for example um very nice guidelines and also a specific checklist uh that was led by uh Faro and company in Belgium so uh with the general guidelines that we have also this um English partner um outside in pathways that that that you know helped us to to develop uh this nice uh guidance so we tried to map uh you know the the the information on the MOOC and and all the chapters of the MOOC and follow uh these guidelines and and help to uh the the future uh users of the MOOC to fill in the the checklist and see if their museums are friendly or not and what do they have to do so at UNED we are very care of uh quality assurance so we have this um we have developed all this information about you know the main components and what about the videos and the video pills and the sales assessment activities and how to into some complementary materials so here you can see what we just have produced uh the the previous month uh in February in February so we just um got to end up with all the video recordings and you can see on the right side our uh nice uh setups you know uh the recording rooms and um as we mentioned both Angelis and I we have been very active on assessing through these um quality uh labels so uh we have uh you know imported all all our expertise on on the quality assurance of of the of the this MOOC and just to finish our presentation uh um our role in the in this in the projects um also it's uh technological so uh in one of the meetings that we have just made in Madrid we we went to a specific museum that it's it was very challenging for us it's devoted to to science learning and it has a lot of self experimentation and also we could kind of develop some objective based learning and sensitization uh also there were a lot of information in braily and we couldn't could also feel we did a workshop on electricity so we could also feel the electricity uh by ourselves and there was also a very uh threatening but also uh exciting okay so um those are some of the uh publications that we have delivered uh uh for these projects so with this I I think I have uh I can uh my presentation thanks for your listening thank you Kovalonga uh for the presentation well Kovalonga and Angelis for the for your presentation well we have seen um a non well the the presentation of well the introductions to this one new project and ongoing projects and we have explored these um this idea of widening access uh well and participation as well but mostly access to to the museum experience and so uh in this sense opening it for everyone for all in in this sense we will not start uh a second part of our webinar today which will be based on a on a discussion a panel discussion uh between the speakers and and I'll start by Antonia um exploring probably another side of these of these experiences which is the participatory culture so we've seen here a focus on inclusion a focus on access on widening access but we are also uh witnessing from the part of museums a very important cultural transformation and I'm talking about the organizational culture of the museums themselves a transformation in order to open up but open up uh in the sense also of involving the the new public the the audiences in this sense the visitors the visitors and the still not visitors and the past visitors so creating a community of users as Antonia was uh saying that uh actually uh co-corate the the museum's collection and in this sense so there is this focus on opening uh on making it a hybrid and ubiquitous experience a personalized one as well uh and in that sense the that personalization links with the involving everyone uh in the to participate in the co-construction of not only of identity but um uh of the museum experiences such but we because we're not talking just of art museums or science museums or technology or science and technology museums the technology museums we could also talk about sport museums and and other uh different sorts of museums which now we have and so from your standpoint Antonia with your um a tremendous experience in digital storytelling within museums uh what is your um your experience on on on this um development of these of museums this opening up for participation that museums are uh following Antonia thank you thank you very much Antonia and actually thank you to all the beautiful wonderful colleagues because uh each of the presentation was actually touching upon this very specific um theme that you just highlighted and actually uh covers uh slides on co-production was somehow uh condensing the meaning of this uh opening up uh the the the co-creative space so museum as co-creative space but also uh Hankeles when you were talking about uh this connection between art and well-being and the appreciation of beauty so even that the appreciation of beauty is of course something that has an impact on an individual but it's also something that needs a safe space for for sharing those uh those connections somehow so and and Antonia of course I'm taking no I've been taking notes during your presentation because I was trying to find the thread and actually I found that thread actually in the participation the participatory element probably because that is what I'm most interested in with my digital storytelling hat but also because all this project we've been learning about today I think they have a common thread that is around participation co-creation and co-production and something very important Antonia and Antonia you both mentioned this is about creating a shared social memory and of course you were mentioning the values of Eden as a collective but this is of course embraced by museum at the very moment especially in times of crisis and of course COVID-19 was a crisis we all were linked to because we all experienced this and of course as you said was an accelerator for this opening up of museums as spaces for co-production the other thing I was thinking about the other aspect I was thinking about is actually creating a safe space because co-production can actually happen only when the audience, audiences, users they actually believe and feel to be in a safe space because the expression of creativity and personal understanding of our common and shared heritage of course requires also an attitude I think Hankeles was talking about attitude as well as an important factor for participation the attitude of people for listening so in my experience using digital storytelling with large museums especially I've been working with the Smithsonian Center for Learning and Digital Access or was born as a digital unit in fact now is a new unit for the education and technology within the Smithsonian so they created this large database of museum resources but since the beginning they thought of those resources as an opportunity for users, participants and audiences to create their own collections and you mentioned the keywords of co-curation so co-production of knowledge starts from co-creation as well and when we think about ways in which we can apply digital storytelling to expand this notion this this opportunity for co-creation, collaboration and co-curation we actually think of digital storytelling about participatory techniques as a way of somehow blurring the boundaries between the knowledge consumers which actually was the way in which we were used to think about museum visitors probably until before the pandemic the knowledge implementers and the knowledge producer so I think that now we are somehow transitioning across these three different categories and following of course the principle of democratizing the access we are also democratizing the participation to the production of knowledge, the co-production of knowledge by somehow creating those safe spaces and for what Hangeles was saying also generating a very positive impact on those audiences so I think all those aspects on somehow in a big cloud where I think I've got a bit of technical mind as Kova I always think of themes as keywords that become bigger or smaller depending on the priorities and I think that the pandemic taught us that the priority is actually the connection of all these key themes together and so that we actually navigate in this cloud of those key themes we've been all exploring together and actually learning about from your brilliant presentations I think all those aspects are really really connected to each other. Well thank you Antonija, would you like to comment Antonija, Kova, Hangeles? Kova you want to comment? Sure Antonija, yeah I am very much like Antonija, I think it's very important this idea of the storytelling, I think the people the way we feel, the way we keep the emotions, the way we really have a nice experience and emotionally engaged comes also from the the sensory aspect and also from the storytelling for instance for us it was very important to give an importance on the narratives thinking on the users with blind disability and at that time you start to think yourself you know the way you look at the painting or a piece of art and how you try to connect what aspects of that piece of art can be linked to your emotions or previous experiences and then we try to develop the narrative but not in an objective way you know not saying okay this is a painting you can see the you know the angel and you can see the Maria the Virgin Maria and and there is a plan there no no we try to make a narrative you know exploring the painting but trying to get the connection with the smelling and maybe previous experiences in the users that there was our starting point you know to trying to develop a nice itinerary that we're conducted through the mobile application. Well thank you Kofa Antonila. Also yes really thank you Antonia. What Antonia mentioned and I highlighted as regards the different kind of activities that many museums can carry out related to storytelling and especially to digital storytelling and in particular the Smithsonian Antonia had an incredible experience working together and actually she is actually I think working still with the Smithsonian is really consistent with what we would like to do as regards the possibility to use critically any kind of of technology because technology especially in the work that is represented by digital storytelling at the Smithsonian organization is directly related to the possibility and the potentiality I would say that the digital field as in view of empowering the museums to facilitate accessibility inclusion participation actually because what we also try to develop within the European project is the idea of you know meaning well-being as participation so well-being is a wide concept and we try to interpret it in the widest way possible so not only of course it's related to health it's related to accessibility it's related to the possibility to help those with disabilities that is related to any kind of marginalization any kind of displacement any kind of you know seclusion from the active life of society so so what is linked to the activity that Antonia was mentioning and this possibility of really being involved and of having this support performed by technology in participation in involvement is absolutely vital and vital in our action what we would like to do and I hope that you know all the people listening to what we are saying today will keep in touch and participate in our in our activities is the possibility to develop also measurement tools to understand really what kind of impact can can have our action through through you know the different ways of using technology to have inclusion really realize well thank you thank you Antonella I would now ask Angelis to comment as well but I will add something else as well to the question which is this element of how the museum experience as a learning experience well museum experiences become a learning experience but more than a learning experience and the discovery experience it also become part of your own identity construction in a sense and we we have now it's becoming common the use of crowd sourcing and crowdfunding well a number of processes that involve the community in in building the connection in curating the collections and in in also co-constructing the meaning of of the collections as well so in that sense and this starts from early age we see now children having access by digital resources or devices to the possibility of of writing their own museum guide and things like that so there is a sense of co-ownership so the museum is now also something that I own as well and part of it and the the the message of the museum is also something that it relates to me because I was part of that story and part of the the writing of that story Angelis how can or how is open education actually contributing to this well I think that open education isn't a huge advance in humanity in some sense because what it gets is this this goal no or for instance that we are well trying to come with now that education should be open for everyone because that that's the main thing we can do for a human being is to get them all the tools that he or she can have to develop of their own self so open education is in institutions such as mine of course is working on trying to get as much people as possible involved in education in continuous education all along the lives so that's not only related to be a graduate or to be a phd or to be you know a master in something but we need to be in contact with our people or with ourselves and this is this idea of dealing that we should be as universities for instance like partners all along the along the lives of people so we need to give them the opportunity to continue learning in those things that are in a personalized way they need more and part of that should be those that are related to art to the museum experience to these that open us to culture because this is as you say this is something there is um uh well that that that we need to feel that is part of ourselves so as Antonia says also I think it's um I mean we need to think also from a psychological perspective that if we open museums and we open education to understand and to and to work uh and to learn about the culture and about the evolution of culture um we are going to learn about ourselves this is something very important and something I mentioned before that um research what it means or what it says is that that makes makes people flourishing so that that's something very important at least psychologists I mean is to people grow up to people um feel that they can have a wider perspective in their lives and it's not just flourishing but I I also think that this is very important related to healing to the power of healing that art has and not only under an individual perspective but as Antonia says as a collective perspective now that we are under again under a fear a fear experience and under uncertainty in this in this world this appreciation of beauty of what the human being can develop not just war but on this side what human being has developed along the history in terms of beauty and in terms of making ourselves better this is something we have to open to the knowledge of what we have developed along the history so um yeah I think open education contributes to that and it should be part of the museums too so I would ask you because I'm not an expert in museums so um in the in our past meeting uh I don't remember when we were in the Tissen museum we were in the education area very well yeah that there was this discussion you mentioned about that uh there is a discussion about what a museum should be or what is the definition of museum and nowadays so uh that's that's the thing that made me think think a lot because there was not uh I mean a unique concept or even nowadays with all these things we are talking about no that there's not actually and there's a big discussion there in fact the ICOM the International Council of Museums as we were saying when we met in Madrid um I've been talking about the definition of museum over you know I would say almost a decade um in the sense that already in 2000 2016 they really focused on the need to revise the original definition of museums of museum that was developed by by ICOM and that mainly um expresses the um the the functions of museums as um yes those that are related to the preservation the research um also um they of course their the restoration of the objects and also of course the educational side related to the use of museums and the enjoyment part related to the participation in museums activity but of course there's um a huge part that that is that of the social value of museums that is not so clearly stated in in that definition and since the main general conference in in Milan that took place in 2016 uh ICOM decided to start a new committee uh devoted to the revision of that uh definition which is particularly important because that definition um is uh you know the main reference that we hold uh all over the world uh involved or interested in what um is museum museum work because you know we can say just museum educational activities or we can say just public engagement activities or we can say um you know just those involved in preservation or conservation and so on and so forth um the social value of museums regard all of us all of us and of course if we think of our role as educators of course we we my view must be interested in what um a museum uh could do museum are actually uh could be should be extended spaces of what is the educational of any educational um activity uh as we were saying they're they show the whole humanity development through the ages so they are our identity is there so it's it's very important and uh you know it should be our main interest to know more about about museums and to know more about how they develop their activities so the issue of the of the definition is a major one and it is but it is still under discussion and I think that in this new main conference because the as I said they started with a new committee devoted to the new definition um in 2016 in 2019 when we had the other main conference general conferencing in Kyoto um the discussion was really hard and they couldn't reach an agreement and so on this next conference that will take place in Prague um hopefully this this august let's uh really wish that that could be an event where everyone can participate from all over the world um on that occasion in Prague this august we really hope that a new shared definition of museum can be there and could include also the um importance of the social value of museums thank you Antonella I would say there that um is a thinking in a location on a the broadest perspective yeah so non-knowledge but also is in the transforming power uh as education a human being but I mean as the broadest perspective because if we only focused on knowledge we wouldn't be on the right point I think so absolutely absolutely also because as I always say um to my students in particular um it's important to start museum activities working with this idea of establishing a relation with the object at the museum and without being aware of you know there's no need of being so much at least so much aware of the historical artistic historical um contents related to that specific object and but after this first encounter um even the most you know uh um native um users um get also that effect of wanting and desiring to know more about the artistic the historical and artistic issues related to that object so the cultural impact is naturally there and that's very very important because we we really need to develop many different cross-sectional skills and actually together with Antonella we developed a project an European project related to the power of museums in developing cross-sectional skills um in in primary school children but the whole um society benefit from this kind of um development well Antonella and Helus thank you for this uh share discussion because this was this is also part of this participatory culture that we're promoting we're approaching the end I've just asked several times to our participants to share questions or ask questions if they if they wanted but apparently they were not so I'll I'll sorry Antonella they are too shy today so well we need to do some ice breaking uh well we'll have another webinar for that anyway I'll I'll probably uh challenge Antonella for a last question and then we'll wrap up uh Antonella uh we haven't we have been discussing and until uh um this exchange between Antonella and Helus mentioned exactly that the transformational value of the of the museum learning experience but uh we haven't tackled steel and I will challenge you for the challenge you for the for for that in just a few minutes on how open education is also having a transformational impact on the museum educators and on the museum curators as well MOOCs for instance MOOCs and open education resources as Helus also mentioned are now being used for um staff training in museums for curators training for educators training as well um and digital storytelling as well so um from your own experience um how what can you share with us about this how how is also museum educators and museum curators uh um transforming in terms of their of their profession uh because of this opening up um in in the educational process the educational process. Antonella? Thanks for the question Antonella which actually is very crucial and and it's linked to what we were saying earlier about impact as well because I think that this is one of the most is one of the fastest impact that we can probably witness within museums that is actually our uh the availability of this large number of educational resources is making educators and curators aware of these tools and then they are not only using those tools and resources but they're also reapplying those approaches in their own practice so as again uh as an example uh if you go into the homepage of the Smithsonian Learning Lab you will see that they have added a new part a new section scrolling down in the homepage about how they deliver e-learning now so it's not just about using accessible resources but it is resources but it's also making sure that in the meantime educators are changing their practice and they are delivering in a different way uh training opportunities for uh different types of audience and for other educators and as you were saying earlier they are also bridging former non-formal education even more because of course those resources are somehow crafted by higher education institutions they are used within non-formal education institutions and they recreate different types of open educational resources to deliver their own training to teachers and colleges and other institutions so it's a very nice loop it's a very positive story that as you said the COVID pandemic probably uh accelerated quite it's quite tangible and visible invisible as a as an outcome of the pandemic okay thank you thank you very much Antonija and I cannot close without actually giving the floor to the to our participants we do have one question by our friend and Eden's fellow uh Alfredo Soeiro who actually asked how can we build an online museum community any suggestions uh who would like to to answer this Antoniola Kova Kova you have the floor from the technological point of view it's quite easy so uh yes get help with the social networks and uh you know I think the point is the the humanistic input you know and and you know how we can not only connect but also transmit you know to to to the rest of us how we feel and and when when we uh you know go to the museum and we see all these magnificent pieces of art and how you know how how we how those pieces of art transform our way of being you know and how we enhanced as Angela has mentioned before you know how we get happier how we get you know improved because we have learned something and how we are transformed so that the technological side is quite easy but I think we have a lot to work on the human beings side so yeah yeah you're right Kova there's um I mean as also Antoniola mentioned over the lockdown over the pandemic certain aspects have been you know underlined and accelerated so many many institutions many museum institutions um tried hard over that time to support the community creation or you know online of course many different museums I'm thinking of for instance of the Getty Museum who that you know prompted different activities asking participants and the users to tell uh about their own experience of certain certain objects I'm thinking of the National Gallery in Washington would develop different programs to support uh online uh experiences with especially centered on visual thinking strategies to develop cross-sectional skills like critical thinking and so on so there are strategies put in place to support this kind of community creation thanks to technology in my view when you work online and you know all of us here are you know there are there are many many different important experts here the most important thing is to support these kind of activities with a frequent use of that strategy or anyway a follow-up activity related to the strategy that you put in place in order to support community participation then as Kova Donga said there are there are many technological opportunities that can be can be used can be put in place and that can be effective and there are also many colleagues from different areas that are studying the issue of digital humanities that is a huge area at the moment all over different universities so so there's lots of work my view another point is to develop and create you know groups where you know experts from the university side both in technology and of course in the different discipline that are involved other colleagues from the museum side other from stakeholders from you know they also the productive part of society and the local policy decision makers should be part on so really you know community of practice should be developed in order to support the definition the creation and the sustainability of certain communities and of communities that could be helpful for the whole society thank you very much Antonella Achilles and then Antonia for a final word well very briefly I think it's quite interesting as Kova said there is no problem with the technology side but as in the in the educational field we need the the the competencies so we also have to think that we should be a word that we can create another digital divide in art experience and museums because we need to get people involved and to have the the required competencies for making use and participating in online museums and so it's not just digitalization of art but we are moving towards digital art which is something here also and people should know how to start working in creating digital art so yeah that's for the education side thank you Achilles and we're not talking just about art museums but art museums as well Antonella you have the floor just just very briefly if there is just one thing that I learned from digital storytelling as a practice is actually I enhanced my attitude to listening and I think that's a key aspect that we should concede when we think about how to create a community so community is about collaboration and intrinsic to collaboration I think we should all work more on this our human attitude of listening to make those collaborations more effective well thank you very much Antonella let me just well thank you and I think we're all joining the same feeling of happiness and well-being in this session because this was a fruitful and a great discussion I think we've tackled very important aspects and this is also inspirational as some of our participants have written in the chat board as well thank you very much Antonella, Cavodonga, Angelis and Antonia well I think a big hand for you and the big hand also for the participants and for the older ones who have shared with us this discussion and shared with us as well their thoughts reflections and comments it was a great pleasure for me let me just on behalf of everyone in the panel and on Eden to wish you a very good weekend well a more peaceful future for Europe and above all that the values that Eden stands for and that open educator stands for will of course endure so thank you very much have a nice weekend and thank you for having been with us bye bye thank you thank you really bye bye bye bye bye


Welcome back, everyone, to our special presentation here at theCUBE with horizon3.a. I am John Furrier, host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto, back is Niho Entani, CEO and co-founder of Horizon 3 for DeepDive on going under the hood around the big news and also the platform, autonomous pentesting, changing the game and security. Great to see you, welcome back. Thank you, John. I love what you guys have been doing with theCUBE.  Let's get into it. All right, so what's the market look like and how do you see it evolving? We're in a down market relative to startups. Some say our data, we're reporting on SiliconANGLE and theCUBE that yeah, there might be a bit of downturn in the economy with inflation, but the tech market is booming because the hyperscalers are still pumping out massive scale and still innovating. So for the first time in history, this is a recession or a downturn where there's now cloud scale players that are an economic engine. What's your view on this? Where's the market heading relative to the downturn and how are you guys navigating that? So I think about it, one, there's a lot of belief out there that we're gonna hit a downturn and we started to see that. We started to see deals get longer and longer to close back in May across the board in the industry and we continue to see deals get at least back loaded in the quarter as people understand their procurement, how much money they really have to spend what their earnings are going to be. So we're seeing this across the board. One is quarters becoming lumpier for tech companies and we think that that's gonna become kind of the normal over the next year. But what's interesting in our space of security testing is a very basic supply and demand problem. The demand for security testing has skyrocketed. When I was a CIO eight years ago, I only had to worry about my on-prem attack surface, my perimeter and insider threat. Those were my primary threat vectors. Now if I was a CIO, I have to include multiple clouds, all of the data in my SaaS offerings, my Salesforce account and so on, as well as work from home threat vectors and other pieces. And I've got regulatory compliance in Europe, in Asia, in the US, tons of demand for testing and there's just not enough supply. There's only 5,000 certified pen testers in the United States. So I think for starters, you have a fundamental supply and demand problem that plays to our strength because we're able to bring a tremendous amount of pen testing supply to the table. But now let's flip to if you are the CEO of a large security company or whether it's a consulting shop or so on, you've got a whole bunch of deferred revenue in your business model around security testing services. And what we've done in our past in previous companies I worked at is, if we didn't think we were gonna make the quarter with product revenue, we would start to unlock some of that deferred services revenue to make the number to hit what Wall Street expected of us. In testing, that's not possible because there's not enough supply except us. So if I'm the CEO of an MSSP or a large security company I see a huge backlog of security testing revenue on the table, the easy button to convert that to recognize revenue is horizon three. And when I think about the next six months and the amount of revenue misses we're gonna see in security shops, especially those that can't fulfill their orders, I think there's a ripe opportunity for us to win. Yeah, one of the few opportunities where on any market you win, because the forces will drive your flywheel. That's exactly right. Very basic supply and demand forces that are only increasing with pressure and there's no way, it takes 10 years just to build a master hacker. Just it's a very hard complex space. We become the easy button to address that supply problem. Yeah, and the autonomous aspect makes APSEC reviews as new things get pushed with cloud native developers. They're shifting left, but still the security policies need to stay pace as these new vectors, threat vectors appear. Yeah. A new thing makes a vector possible. That's exactly right. I think there's two aspects. One is, as you increase change in your environment you need to increase testing. They are absolutely correlated. The second thing though is, for 20 years we focused on remote code execution or RCEs as an industry. What was the latest RCE that gave an attacker access to my environment? But if you look over the past few years that entire mindset has shifted. Credentials are the new code execution. What I mean by that is, if I have a large organization with a hundred, a thousand, 10,000 employees all it takes is one of them to have a password I can crack in credential spray and gain access to as an attacker. And once I've gained access to a single user I'm gonna systematically snowball that into something of consequence. And so I think that the attackers have shifted away from looking for code execution and looked more towards harvesting credentials and cascading credentials from a regular domain user into an admin. This brings up the conversation. I would like to do a more deep dive now, shift into more of like the real kind of landscape of the market and your positioning and value proposition in that. And that is managed services are becoming really popular as we move into this next wave of super cloud and multi-cloud and hybrid cloud. Because I mean, multi-cloud and hybrid, hybrid then multi-cloud sounds good on paper but the security ops become big. And one of the things we're reporting with here on theCUBE and SiliconANGO the past six months is DevOps has made the developer, the IT team because they've essentially run IT now in CI CD pipeline as they say. That means IT is replaced by data ops or AI ops or security ops. And data and security kind of go hand in hand so I can see that playing out. Do you believe that to be true that that's kind of the new operational kind of beach head that's critical and if so, if data is part of security that makes security the new IT. Yeah, I think that if you think about organizations hell even for horizon three right now I don't need to hire a CIO. I'll have a CISO and that CISO will own IT and governance risk and compliance and security operations. Because at the end of the day the most pressing question for me to answer as a CEO is my security posture. IT is a supporting function of that security posture. And we see that at say a growth stage company like horizon three, but when I thought about my time at GE Capital, we really shifted to this mindset of security by design architecture as code. And it was very much a security driven conversation. And I think that is the norm going forward. And how do you view the idea that you have to enable a managed service provider with security also managing and which then manages the company to enable them to have agile security security as code, because what you're getting at is this autonomous layer that's going to be automated away to make the next talented layer whether it's a coder or architect scale. So the question is what is abstracted away at automation seems to be the conversation that's coming out of this big cloud native or super cloud next wave of cloud scale. I think there's two dimensions to that. And honestly, I think the more interesting dimension is not the technical side of it, but rather think of the Equifax hack a bunch of years ago. Had Equifax used a managed security services provider would the CEO have been fired after the breach? And the answer is probably not. I think the CEO would have transferred enough reputational risk and operational risk to the third party MSSP to save his job from him being fired. You can look at that across the board. I think that if I were a CIO again, I would be hard pressed to build my own internal security function because I'm accepting that risk as an executive and we saw what just happened at Uber. There's a ton of risk coming with that with accepting that as a security person. So I think in the future, the role of the MSSP becomes more significant as a mechanism for transferring enough reputational and operational and legal risk to a third party so that you as the core company are able to protect yourself and your people. Now, then what you think is a super cloud principles and concepts being applied at MSSP scale. And I think that becomes really interesting. Talk about the talent opportunity because I think the managed service providers point to markets that are growing and changing. Also, having managed service means that the customers can't always hire talent. Hence, they go to a channel or a partner. This seems to be a key part of the growth in your area. Talk about the talent aspect of it. Yeah, think back to what we saw in cloud. So as cloud picked up, we saw IBM, HP, other hardware companies sell more servers but to fewer customers, Amazon, Google and others, right? And so I think something similar is going to happen in the security space where I think you're going to see security tool providers selling more volume but to fewer customers that are just really big MSSPs. So that is the path forward. And I think that the underlying talent issue gives us economies at scale. And that's what we saw this with cloud. We're going to see the same thing in the MSSP space. I've got a density of talent, plus a density of automation, plus a density of relationships and ecosystem that give MSSPs a huge economies of scale advantage over everybody else. I mean, I want to get into MSSP business. Sounds like I make a lot of money. Definitely, it's profitable. No doubt about it, like that. I got to ask more on the more of the burden side of it because if you're a partner, I don't need another training class. I don't need another tool. I don't need someone saying this is the highest margin product. I need to actually downsize my tool. So right now there's hundreds of tools that MSSPs have all the time dealing with and does the customer. So tools, platforms, we've kind of teased this out in previous conversations together but more relevant to the MSSP is what they do to the customer. So talk about this burden of tools and the socks out there in the landscape. How do you view that and what's the conversation like? On average, an organization has 130 different cybersecurity tools installed. None of those tools were designed to work together. None of those tools are from the same vendor. And in fact, oftentimes they're from vendors that have competing products. And so what we don't have and they're still getting breached in the industry, we don't have a tools problem. We have an effectiveness problem. We have to reduce the number of tools we have, get more out of the effectiveness out of the existing infrastructure, build muscle memory to know how to detect and respond to a breach and continuously verify that posture. I think that's what the most successful security organizations have mastered the fundamentals and they mastered that by making sure they were effective in detection and response, not mastering it by buying the next shiny AI tool on the defensive side. Okay, so you mentioned supply and demand early since you brought up economics. We'll get into the economic equations here. When you have great profits, that's going to attract more entrants into the marketplace. So as more MSSP's enter the market, you're going to start to see a little bit of competition, maybe some FUD, maybe some price, competitive price penetration, all kinds of different tactics go on there. How does that impact you? Because now, does that impact your price or are you now part of them just competing on their own value? What's that mean for the channel as more entrants come in? Hey, I can compete against that other one. Does that create conflict? Is that an opportunity? Are you neutral on that? What's the position? It's a great question actually. I think the way it plays out is, one, we are neutral. Two, the MSSP has to stand on their own with their own unique value proposition. Otherwise they're going to become commoditized. We saw this in the early cloud provider days. The cloud providers that were just basically wrapping existing hardware with a race to the bottom pricing model didn't survive. Those that used the cloud infrastructure as a starting point to build higher value capabilities, they're the ones that have succeeded to this day. The same MO I think will occur in MSSP's, which is there is a base level of capability that they've got to be able to deliver. And it is the burden of the MSSP to innovate effectively to elevate their value problem. It's interesting dynamic. And I brought it up mainly because if you believe that this is going to be a growing new market, price erosion is more in mature markets. So it's interesting to see that dynamic come up and we'll see how that handles on the economics and just the macro side of it. Getting more into kind of like the next gen, autonomous pen testing is a leading indicator that a new kind of security assessment is here. If I said that to you, how do you respond to that? What is this new security assessment mean? What does that mean for the customer and to the partner and that relationship down that whole chain? Yeah, back to I'm wearing a CIO hat right now. Don't tell me we're secure in PowerPoint. Show me we're secure today. Show me we're secure tomorrow and then show me we're secure again next week. Because that's what matters to me. If you can show me we're secure, I can understand the risk I'm accepting and articulate it up to my board, to my regulators. Up until now, we've had a PowerPoint tell me we're secure culture and security. And I just don't think that's going to last all that much longer. So I think the future of security testing and assessments is this shift from a PowerPoint report to truly showing me that I'm secure or not. And you guys auto generate those statements that you mentioned that earlier. That's exactly right. Because the other part is, you know the classic way to do security reports was garbage in, garbage out. You had a human kind of theoretically fill out a spreadsheet that magically came up with the risk score or security posture. That doesn't work. That's a check the box mentality. What you want to have is an accurate high fidelity understanding of your blind spots, your threat vectors, what data is at risk, what credentials are at risk. And you want to look at those results over time. How quickly did I find problems? How quickly did I fix them? How often did they reoccur? And that is how you get to a show me where secure culture. Whether I'm a company or I'm a channel partner working with Horizon 3.ai, I have to put my name on the line and say, here's a service level agreement. I'm going to stand behind. There's levels of compliance. You mentioned that earlier. How do you guys help that area? Because that becomes, I call the, you know, below the line, I got to do it anyway.  But it has to be fundamental because if the threats vectors are increasing and you're handling it like you say you are, the way it is real time today, tomorrow or the next day, you got to have that other stuff flow into it. Can you describe how that works under the hood? Yeah, there's, there's two parts to it. The first part is that attackers don't have to hack in with zero days. They log in with credentials that they found. But often what attackers are doing is chaining together different types of problems. So if you have 10 different tactics, you can chain those together a number of different ways. It's not just 10 to the 10th. It's exact because you don't, you don't have to use all the tactics at once. So there's a very large number of combinations that an attacker can apply to pong you is what it comes down to. And so at the base level, what you want to have is what are the primary tactics that are being used? And those tactics are always being added to an evolving. What are the primary outcomes that an attacker is trying to achieve?  And now what you have is it actually looks more like a chess game algorithm than it does any sort of hard-coded automation or anything else, which is based on the pieces on the board, the IT infrastructure I've discovered, what is the next best action to become a domain admin or steal your data? And that's the underlying innovation and IP we've created, which is next best action, knowledge graph analytics and adaptiveness to figure out how to combine different problems together to achieve an objective that an attacker cares about. So the 3D chess players out there, I'd say that's the more like 3D chess, are the practitioners implementing it. But when I think about compliance managers, I don't see 3D chess players. I see back office accountants in my mind, they're like, okay, are they actually even understand what comes out of that? So how do you handle the compliance side? Do you guys just check the boxes there? Is it not part of it? Cause it, I don't envision the compliance guys on the front lines identifying vectors. Do you even know what it means? Yeah, it's a great question. When you think about the market segmentation, I think we've seen our three basic types of users. You've got the really mature, high frequency security testing, purple team type folks. And for them, we are the force multiplier for them to secure their environment. You didn't have the middle group where the IT person and the security person are the same individual. They are barely treading water. They don't know what their attack surface is and they don't know what to focus on. That's actually where we started with the barely treading water persona. And that's why we had a product that helped those network engineers become superheroes. The third segment are those that view security and compliance as synonymous. And they don't really care about continuous. They care about running and checking the box for PCI and for whatever else. And those customers, while they use us, they are better served by our partner ecosystem. And that's really, so the first two categories tend to use us directly. Self-service pen tests as often as they want. That compliance minded folks end up going through our partners because they're better served there. Steve Hall, great to have you on. Thanks for this deep dive on under the hood section of the interview, appreciate it. And I think autonomous is an indicator beyond pen testing. Pen testing has become like, okay, penetration, security, but this is not going away. Where do you see this evolving? What's next? What's next for Horizon? Take a minute to give a plug for what's going on with the company, how do you see it? I know you've got good margins, you're raising capital, always raising money, you're not yet public. Looking good right now as they say. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think the first thing is our company strategy is in three chapters. Chapter one is become the best security testing platform in the industry, period, that's it. And be very good at helping you find and fix your security blind spots. That's chapter one, we've been crushing it there with great customer traction, great partner traction. Chapter two, which we've started to enter is, look at our results over time to help that that GRC officer or auditor accurately assess the security posture of an organization. And we're going to enter that chapter about this time next year. Longer term though, the big vision I have is, how do I use offense to inform defense? So for me, chapter three is, how do I get away from just security testing towards autonomous security overall? Where you can use our security testing platform to identify ways to attack. That informs defensive tools exactly where to focus, how to adjust and so on. And now you've got an integrated learning loop between attack and defense. That's the future never been done before. Master the art of attack to become a better defender is the bigger vision of the company. Love the new paradigm security. Congratulations, we've been following you guys. We will continue to follow you. Thanks for coming on the special point. Congratulations on the new market expansion, international going indirect, that a big way. Congratulations. Thank you, John, appreciate it. Okay, this is a special presentation with theCUBE and horizon3.ai. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching.


Hi everyone, thanks for tuning in to Big Ideas Live Recap. I'm here with Sloan Frost again, who's from Students for Liberty, and we just finished our Big Ideas Live event on the role of incentives in healthcare. So thanks for appearing with me, Sloan. We're gonna go through, yeah, thanks a lot. We're gonna go through a couple of the most important things that we talked about. So you guys hopefully will tune into the whole event, which will be posted online later. So the first thing that I wanted to talk to you about Sloan is incentives. They are not just something that we talk about when it comes to economics, although they're important in economics. They apply in all different areas of life. So did you wanna talk just a little bit about that? Yeah, sure. So this is one of the things that I find most interesting is that people tend to say that incentives don't matter when it comes to things like healthcare or education, but the reality is that you still have people, right? I mean, you still have people who are trying to either make a living as doctors or as people who run hospitals, and you still have people who are seeking care. People who are either patients or sick or caregivers, and everyone who's involved in healthcare in some way or another has constraints. So they have limited time, or they have limited budget. So they're incentives that push them to either access care in a certain way or pay for in a certain way or trade with each other in a certain way for healthcare. So all of these interactions that people have with each other and all of the decisions that they have to make on a daily basis are all influenced by this crazy web of incentives. And then you throw into that hot government intervention and government regulation, you get even more crazy incentives that push people to act in a certain way. So no matter what you're talking about, you always are going to have incentives that may change the way that you make decisions. And if you think a little bit about why they're there and what they were designed to do, it becomes a really interesting conversation. Yeah, for sure. And regardless of what you think about the government being involved in healthcare, there's no arguing with the fact that it creates a whole new set of incentives. Absolutely. And we talked a little bit about all of the different incentives that come into play. And there were three that you said are the most important to me after the event. And they were cost access and quality. So how did those play into the incentives in the healthcare system and how it affects us? Yeah, you can think about healthcare in an interesting mix of cost, access, and quality.  They're worried about is it gonna be good medical care? And they're worried about how am I gonna get to that medical care? So you talked a little bit about waiting lines, which are famous things, examples in single payer healthcare systems. And we also have this issue where, especially in the States, you can slap a label and insure it on someone and give them an insurance card, but it doesn't mean they're gonna get access to care. It doesn't mean that they're actually gonna see a doctor. So you have these competing incentives for cost access and quality. So cost, that's obviously, I don't wanna pay $3,000 every time I go see a doctor, right? So as a patient, I have insurance and then I only have to pay for a certain portion of my cost. And that can be a problem when I don't have to pay my full bill. If I only see a bill for $20 instead of $300, I may access that service differently because I've been incentivized to go more frequently because I've been paid less. So that's one set of costs. With access, you can talk about how doctors are incentivized to provide more or pricing mechanisms in their healthcare. So you don't have a menu for healthcare services, like it costs $100 to go see a doctor or costs $3 for this band-aid when you go to a hospital, things like that. So without those prices that are public, we have incentive to spend more money and not really worry about who's fitting the bill. Right. And then you have incentives for quality. So that's things like, am I providing good care? Am I being a good consumer of care? And now we have some really cool technological opportunities to advance that and to get measures out there and publish them. But if you wanna provide good quality, it means it's probably gonna come at a higher cost. And it also means a few people are gonna be able to access it. You wanna get more access. It means you're gonna have to pay more money for food to see a doctor. And it means you may not be able to see the highest quality doctor anymore. So balancing those three components is really important to incentivizing better healthcare for everyone in the population. Yeah, and we talked a lot tonight about the different ways that this affects at least the United States and Canadian healthcare systems. But as we learned, we can easily talk about that for an hour. So anybody who's interested will have to tune into the full conversation. So one of the things, the reason that I wanted to ask, it was, yeah. One of the reasons I wanted to have Sloan on Big Ideas Live is because of her piece in a Students for Liberty book called Why Liberty, which I have here and is available online for free. And she talks about the way that when you are using a healthcare system, it can seem as though it wasn't designed by people who really care. It seems as though it's too complicated. It seems as though it doesn't really care about people who are really desperate. And yet the people who designed any system are just people, right? They're not evil, they're not uncaring.  Everybody has a basic human caring for each other. And one of the ways that Sloan explains that this happens is that incentives are different for everybody in the healthcare system. So Sloan, tell us a little bit about how the different people working in a healthcare system are affected by incentives and how that affects the system generally. Sure, so there is a giant system that's at play whenever you talk about a population of a healthcare system. So it helps to kind of drill it down a bit to you a single interaction. So let's pretend that I'm an insurance company like we did tonight and I need to figure out who I'm gonna tell the people that I'm insuring they should go see when they need medical attention. So for example, I have a choice of two doctors. I've got Dr. Orange and Dr. Blue. And I have to say to my beneficiaries, do you wanna see Dr. Orange who is a better doctor or Dr. Blue? Well, what I can do is I can charge my beneficiaries less or have them pay a lower co-pay for seeing Dr. Orange. So that pushes the patients to go see one doctor versus another. Doctors have that too because they want to enter into a contract with the insurance company to get patients to come see them. So doctors may say to an insurance company, hey, I'll only bill you X dollars instead of X plus 10 because I want you to tell your patients. So people are negotiating with each other for more business within healthcare but it also incentivizes them to behave differently so they can get that attention.  You want to quickly be able to see a doctor and of course with a doctor. So that means sometimes you're willing to spend a little bit more money because you think that incentivizes a doctor to be better because you're giving them more money. But it also means that you may have to go to an insurance company who's got a doctor that's able to see you for less money if you're not able to afford it. So there's lots of different incentives at play for everyone in the system. And then you've got above all this, the policy makers who are designing the system. And like we said, they're not evil, it's just the fatal conceit of a person who's a central planner trying to figure out how they can design a system that helps millions of people and that's just impossible. You can, no matter how smart you are how well-intentioned you are, so that's gonna be the best. That's why it's always better for society, for the individual to be able to have a market driven system. Yeah, as we talked about tonight and as I've talked about in previous episodes of Big Ideals Live, sometimes you don't even know yourself what you're gonna want until you actually get into a situation. So it's just impossible for anybody no matter how well informed they are to really plan for everything. So that kind of gives us an idea of the different incentives and the different people at play. How does this affect the system? How does this result in the kind of mess that we see all over the world actually? Yeah, it's terrifying. There isn't really one system and that's not figured out yet. All the systems that you think are really great if you actually examine them, they have a lot of flaws. So one of the problems that happens is that people think if they inject one item of policy or they try to tweak one program a little bit, it's gonna help, but what that often does is it creates incentives for people to behave differently. So for example, in the States, we had the Affordable Care Act, which is also known as Obamacare, which completely tried to overhaul the health insurance system here in the States, but it has a lot of consequences or things that people didn't foresee happening. So once you try to put all these incentives at play, you get people operating in different ways than you thought. So for example, under the ACA, businesses will get fined if they don't offer insurance to their employees.  So instead of they're dumping the insurance and taking the fine so that they still are paying less money than they would have if they provided insurance. So people are responding to incentives, they're responding to the rules and regulations, and sometimes unfortunately that leads to some less than optimal outcomes. Yeah, and another thing we talked about a little bit in the event tonight was the fact that people are afraid of change. Status quo bias, I think, is the name. Yes. And you definitely- Yeah, once you're in a spot, it's really tough to get out of it. Yeah, and I mean, the US just had a big overhaul, but in Canada there's always the argument about whether if you allow the boogeyman is two-tier healthcare or private healthcare that would allow poor people to die in the streets without care, and even though that's not what happens in the rest of the world, there's fear and it's reasonable because it's healthcare, it's a very important policy topic. Sure, sure. So that's just- Yes. Go ahead. I was just going to say it's interesting what you hear from other countries that are told about other countries' systems, right? Yeah. Because in the US they'll talk often about Canadian healthcare and fuel and access, and the data tend to show us that waiting lines are far, you have to wait a far longer time to see a specialist. If you just have a primary care need, it's of course cheaper to you when you go to the doctor in Canada versus when you go to the doctor in state. So there are different things that happen as a result of the programs, but it depends on your perspective at any given time, you know? For sure. So that's just kind of a sampling of what we talked about tonight on Big Ideas Live. I hope that you'll be able to check out the full event when it's posted. And also like us on Facebook, just search for Big Ideas Live or check us out on the web at fee.org slash bigideas. Thanks very much again, Sloan, for appearing tonight. Thanks for having me.