Proudly, we hail. New York City, where the American stage begins, here is another program with a cast of outstanding players. Public service time has been made available by this station for your Army and your Air Force to bring you this story. As proudly we hail the doctors, the medical services, our story is entitled Magic Dust, a tale of the wonders of medical science as applied to preventive medicine. Our first act curtain will rise in a moment, but first... Registered nurses, here is a chance to be of service to your country during one of the most critical periods in America's history. As you know, our Army has expanded rapidly due to the tech and urgently needs more nurses to help safeguard the health of our soldiers. You'll be a commissioned officer with good pay and liberal allowances, and you'll have priceless opportunities for furthering your professional career. You'll have the benefit of working with some of the finest medical equipment in the world and the chance of learning the newest techniques in the medical profession. Get all the facts today. Write or wire the Surgeon General, United States Army, Washington 25 D.C. Do it now. And now your Army and your Air Force present the proudly we hail production, Magic Dust. The dictionary definition of the word Army is a large, organized body of men armed for war and designed for land service. Side by side with this large, organized body of men, in fact, a very important part of this group is the medical service. Doctors, nurses, men charged with the health and well-being of the men of our armed forces, whether it be peace or war. One of the important branches of this medical service is the preventive medicine section. This branch of medicine has made great strides in our battle against disease. The United States Army Medical Service devised means to purify the water supply of soldiers in the field. The medical service fought and won the fight against yellow fever in Cuba and Panama. The medical service protected the American soldier against malaria, typhoid, smallpox, and typhus. And that's just the beginning of the story. For out of the problems of the past, out of the shadow of war, have come the means to protect the civilian population of this nation against most of the disease that flesh is airing. This has been going on for a long, long time. Water is a necessity of war. Thirst can make a soldier very vulnerable. Contaminated water can make that soldier very sick. And during previous wars, the medical service cut down the incidents of typhoid and dysentery by insisting on water purification for the army. In World War I, our army went into Europe for the first time in history. The medical service successfully protected our men from smallpox, typhus, and the other ills that lurk within the shadows of war-wrecked countries. And then came global war. The maps were spread out on the huge tables in the mapping rooms. Strange names appeared on the maps were spoken in the secret moons. Names that we were to learn much, much later. Names that are forever to be remembered. Guadalcanal and Casarino. Fincheven, Hlandi and Solano. Bugampion and Casino. Karachi and Moritai. These places would come to know American men. American men would come to know these places and the dangers lurking there. Within the medical service, the maps were laid out too, and earnest men poured over them. But the talk was not of landing craft and tanks. There is no doubt in my mind or in any of yours, gentlemen, I'm sure that we have the toughest problem on our hands the Army ever finished. If the enemy is spreading as fast as they are, our supplies of fine iron will be cut off almost entirely. I have a hunch we'll lick that pretty soon. That adabren synthetic is highly effective already. Well, it will help. However, gentlemen, there's one disease we can be certain will appear. And I have a hunch it will be a potent enemy. The enemy, gentlemen, is typhus. Typhus. Louse-born, filth-carried, bred in poverty and wretchedness. Infecting soldier and civilian alike. Responsible for thousands of deaths in World War I. More deadly than bullets. And as silent in its coming as the shadows of night. This is the enemy. He's very old, son. Very old. But must he now? There's little I can do. Grandfather dies now. There'll be nobody left but me. I'm afraid there's no if about it. You must make every mind of that. But I had the fever, too. Why didn't I die? Because you're young and strong. It stops their hearts. Like that, my boy. Yes, sir. That. Doctor, what do doctors call a fever grandfather died from? It's always followed wars everywhere, my boy. It's called typhus. Typhus, the champion of the Four Horsemen. This was the battle. Beat typhus and millions marked for death would live. Yes, this was the battle. And this battle was joined by the Army Medical Service in 1941. And then, in 1942, the men of the Typhus Commission went to work. They established bases wherever it appeared necessary and the job went ahead. In the meantime, the millions of men under arms within the borders of the United States had to be protected against the menace they would meet overseas. The first step was... Okay, you guys. Line up. Roll up your left sleeve. Not more shots, Sarge. Shots, it is. Just one this time. What for?  Save the chatter, soldiers. This time you get typhus. Holy cow, what do they think of next? Every man in the Army and Navy receive those typhus shots. Every man was protected by a vaccine made... Well, this is how it's made, if you can conceive it without seeing it. The organisms that cause typhus are called rickettsia, from the scientist Ricketts, who discovered them. Now, the process of developing rickettsia is as follows. Lice are infected with typhus. The infected insects are destroyed and their intestines are then injected into eggs that have been incubated for six or seven days. After a period of development, the crop of rickettsia is harvested, purified, and as we say, phenylized into a vaccine. The dry voice of a scientist makes it all so simple, doesn't it? Inoculate eggs, harvest a crop, make a vaccine. Not a word about the infinite care and patience. About the time and money spent on this one process of preventive medicine. But it pays off. It certainly did pay off. The use of this vaccine was insurance against death from typhus. The use of this vaccine very greatly reduces the incidence of typhus. A gross understatement. When our troops served alongside the troops of other nations that were not protected in this manner and in the midst of civilian populations actually infected with the disease, the only cases of typhus that appeared in American soldiers were so mild that it took laboratory tests to establish that they had the disease at all. But this is only one side of the picture. This is the bright side. The dark side is black indeed. What about the millions destined to die if the disease is not controlled for them? What about the children and the old men and old women? What can be done for them? Even clean, I'd say. Delosam to be blunt about it. I see in those outfits with the dry heaters and the steam that we build on trailers. The stuff is carried by lice. Kill the lice! Sounds so easy. But stop a minute. Granted that you could build places for thousands of people to wait for their clothing. Granted that you could dry and cool off their clothing fast enough to give it back to them before the next batch came in. Granted all this. What happens in the first hour of their back and their old haunts? What happens then? That's it. In just 10 seconds, a hop, a skip, and a jump ping, and you can start the cleaning process all over again. No, it won't do. It just won't do.  Give them all the protection the American soldier gets. Not so easy. Not so easy at all. First, there's the production of the vaccine. Slow, pain's taking, careful. Then there's the problem of inoculation. I suppose they would gripe like the soldiers do. Shots, shots, shots. What do you mean? What do we do? Let them die? You know better than that. The word preventive doesn't stand for anything like that. No, the Army Medical Service knew they had to find a way to stop the spread of typhus, to stop all those unnecessary deaths. There was the problem. And the problem was solved. You are listening to the proudly we hail production of magic dust. We'll return to our story in just a moment after this important announcement. Our Army has expanded tremendously to meet the challenge of the forces of aggression which are threatening the peace of the world. And there is an urgent need for professional women to fill the ranks within the Women's Medical Specialist Corps. The occupational and physical therapists and the dieticians who comprise the Corps have never had a greater opportunity to serve where they are needed most. Right now, there are only a few hundred of these highly trained specialists serving throughout the Army and the Air Force. Despite the fact that the need for their services has never been more acute. To the women of this profession, your Army and Air Force offers not only the opportunity to fulfill a patriotic duty but a commission as an officer in the Army or the Air Force of the United States. And with that commission goes the pay, the privileges, the security and the opportunities for continued study that is available to every officer. The opportunity for a lifetime career is great but the need is greater. So if you are a qualified occupational or physical therapist or a dietician here is your chance to serve your country in an hour of great need. Write or wire the Surgeon General United States Army or the Surgeon General United States Air Force Washington 25 D.C. Remember, you are needed now. You are listening to Proudly We Hail. Now we present the second act of Magic Dust. The first blow against Typhus was struck 72 years ago by an obscure student in the University of Strasbourg, a chemistry student, Othman Zeidler, who had a thesis to write. In the course of the experiment described above I succeeded in synthesizing a little unknown combination called dichlorodifino trichloroethane. It is a powerful poison whose effect on life has yet to be determined. And that was all that was known about dichlorodifino trichloroethane, commonly called DDT today. Othman Zeidler wrote his thesis and it was buried as so many things are deep in the library of the University. And then in 1939 there was a plague of potato bugs in Switzerland. Yeah, a little I think. A little isn't enough. If something isn't found quickly there will be no potatoes in Switzerland this year. And that will mean a food shortage. Now what have you got? I have checked and tested a number of formulas, sir. The only thing that seems at all effective is dichlorodifino trichloroethane. It seems to kill insects practically on site. The potato bug is a hardy fellow. Yeah, I tried that, sir. Just let the potato bug touch this stuff and it's dead. Well, not yet, sir. Now get in touch with our department of agriculture. Have them perform experiments. If they want it, we'll make it for them. They wanted it all right. The potato crop was saved in Switzerland that year simply by spraying the plants with the rediscovered chemical. In 1942, Paul Müller called on the American military attaché in Baal, Switzerland. What can we do for you, Mr. Müller? That is not the question, sir. It is what we can do for you. So? We wish to offer the United States government a chemical formula free of charge for the duration of the war. Well, let me thank you in advance, Mr. Müller. And now then, what is this formula? We call it dichlorodifino trichloroethane, sir. We have used it with marked success against agricultural pests and we have great reason to believe it to be tremendously effective against the typhus bearing louse. And so it came to the United States, this old, new chemical with the long, almost unpronounceable name. It came here and the Army's Department of Preventive Medicine was interested at once. Perhaps this was the agent of death for insects we'd been searching for. 100 pounds of the stuff went to the Department of Agriculture. It next appeared in a laboratory in Orlando, Florida. Why are you spraying an empty cage?  You see those cages over there? Well, they were sprayed yesterday, just as this one was. Yeah? What's so terrific about that? I'm going to place some of these mosquitoes in those cages. Yeah, that should do it. Let's get to the point. What is it that's so terrific? Oh, you'll see, Dave. Let's take a break for a smoke. Better be good. Hey. They're all dead, Mac. That's the stuff the Swiss sent over. Knock some old dead, all kinds of mosquitoes, flies, fleas, lice, every insect we have in the lab. But what does it do to animals and humans? Well, that's the next step. It's safe to use. We've looked some pretty big problems. Let's find out, Dave. Let's find out. And find out they did. Patiently, quietly, in the deepest secrecy, 29 scientists at the Orlando Laboratory worked faithfully in the tradition of water read, Joseph Goldberger, Ricketts, Nicole, and all the others. They checked and double-checked every possibility. They proved and reproved, tried and retried. And then they reported, from the results of our experiments, we feel we can say that dichlorodiphenyl trichloroethane is the most effective insecticide ever discovered by man. We have found that it retains its effectiveness on the treated surfaces for as long as two weeks after treatment, in spite of laundering, cleaning, or even the forces of nature such as rain and heat. It will be of great use to the armed forces under all conditions of battle, weather, or temperature. What was this, anyway, this jawbreaker? Dynamite? How would it be used? What could we really do with it? The name DDT, a typically American abbreviation, took hold and has been used since. DDT, born in Strasburg and buried there in 1874, resurrected in Switzerland in 1939, grown to maturity in Florida in 1942 and 43. DDT, dynamite or insect pest. And all this while, the Typhus Commission was in the field, working, working against the day when the first American soldier would place his boots on the soil of Europe. On Europe? But Africa was first. Hey, you kids, you speak English? Me, Ali speak little English. Yeah? What about your two friends? They not understand. Me, Ali, me speak foreign. You got chocolate candy chewing gum, yes? Yeah, okay. I got chocolate candy chewing gum, yes. Here. Hey, hold everything. There's something else, too. Something else? Yeah. I'm scratching, will you? Yes. Look, kid, what I got, it'll stop all that scratching for you. You know, me, I scratch. Friend scratch. My father, my mother. Yeah, yeah, I know.  Dust? There was much dust. Can you make more? Oh, this is a special dust. It'll stop the scratching. Maybe. No, too much dust here now. Uh, for, um, 10 francs? Maybe. You pay money? Yeah, I pay money to you. Do your friends go? If you let me dust your stuff. Can you pay money first? Uh, uh, uh, uh. I know that guy. I pay money second. First, dust. See? Like this. Smells funny. You pay money now. Yeah, just a shade more dust. Like this. Yeah, okay. Now, here's your 10 francs. Now, let me at you two friends. Can you talk with me, yes, but no more dough? Dough? No more money. Yes, no money. Allie, very happy now. Do you make dust? No more scratching. Allie and friends tell whole village. Oh, that's fine. Nothing like publicity, I always say. You say? Yes, give it to you. Well, what's on your mind? Oh, what do you want? My father, head mayor. He say you make dust on whole village. Whole village lets you make dust. Not again, kid. The whole village likely gonna make dust on it. Allie, you're in. Hey, you guys, here we go. The whole village is coming out to be dusted off. It was something. It was the beginning. 30 francs spent on three Arab boys led to the permission to use DDT on their whole village, on the population of North Africa all along our line of march. Yes, there were other preliminary victories in Africa besides Tunis and Berserk. Now, the lines on the maps moved forward. Sicily, Silano on the march on Naples. Casinos splashed black across our headlines. And Anzio was written down in the blood of young Americans. While our eyes were fastened on the maps and our ears were filled with gunfire, there was menace in the silence out of other places. Dark, spreading insidious menace. A city of a million souls crowded with the flotsam and jutsam of war with homes wrecked, water supplied meager, with thousands living in the bomb shutters because there was no other place to go. Into this city came thousands upon thousands of American boys. Out of that city, word flashed. Epidemic in Naples. Types. Types within the shadows of war, breeding, spreading, claiming the lives of young and old. The charts at the overcrowded, overworked hospitals began to show the figure, began to speak the truth. 10 cases admitted today. 22 cases admitted today. 46 cases today. 63 cases today. The old people died. They always do with typhus. It strains the heart. And the disease spreads on. From victim to victim, from typhus patient to healthy human, on it went. The order came from headquarters to the typhus commission to the teams of medical corpsmen charged with fighting this creeping, silent enemy. Get there and get there now. They got there, rolled into the city, rolled up their sleeves and went to work. Now, take it easy. Don't we got dust all of them? You know the orders, guy. All of them. Looks like a million. That's not, but it's liable to be before we get through. Hey, you, come here. Now, look, you guys, this is how it's done. I take this one, see? And I give it home with the dust. Up each sleeve on his collar, up his pants, round his waist inside his belt. And that's all. Then the next one. And keep moving. We got no time to waste. There was dust in Naples then. Dust with DDT. The teams went out, dusting typhus patients, their families, their homes, their furniture and their clothing. The teams went out and dusted the bomb shutter dwellers, 40,000 of them. The teams went out and in one day, 73,000 people were protected with DDT. Then one month after the job was started, the hospitals reported, In the past 24 hours, the rate of admissions of typhus cases has dropped from 63 to a mere 10. At a point in the epidemic where we expected a sharp rise. The battle that was joined in 1942 with the creation of the Typhus Commission gave us our first great victory in Naples in 1944. DDT was the weapon. The preventive medicine experts of the Army Medical Service provided the fighters. The dividends were enormous. The methods proved in Naples have beaten the disease in every part of the world where American troops are today. And this was the work we did. While our enemy deliberately infected people with typhus in an attempt to wipe out whole populations, this is the difference between us and them. This will always be the difference between a compassionate government by the people and an oppressive dictatorship of slavery. Well, Sergeant, here we are again. Same job, different location. Yeah, Sewell instead of Naples. Oriental instead of Occidentals. There's just as many of them and just as many lice. Even with Lundane instead of DDT. You know, back there in Naples, dusting them civilians, many of them innocent bystanders in the pathway of war wasn't so bad.  Yeah, and then we'd have to inoculate every man, woman, and child in the country. Oh, thank you. Besides, what if this dear lousing does give the guy a little pleasure?   Yes, Sergeant, it is too bad that your magic dust can't get at the real thing that's lousing up the existence of an awful lot of people in the world today. But we're mighty grateful for the part it's playing in helping to control the dreaded diseases of the world. And we're real proud of the men and women of the medical service who made possible the use of DDT, the magic dust. Registered or graduate nurses, answer your country's call for service in the Army Nurse Corps. The need is great, and the need is urgent. There just aren't enough nurses to handle the nursing requirements of our greatly expanding Army. And you, as a nurse, can appreciate perhaps better than anyone else the fact that an Army's efficiency is largely dependent upon the state of its health. So here's your opportunity to be of immeasurable service to your country at a time when the need is great. The Army Nurse Corps has plenty to offer you, too. The pay is good, and the allowances are liberal. You'll be in a job that challenges the best that's within you, and you'll have endless opportunities to grow in your professional capacity. The Army's vigorous medical research program has developed many new medical techniques, and you'll learn how to apply them. But most of all, you'll have the satisfaction of knowing that you are serving at a time when you are needed most. So make your decision to serve now. Write or wire the Surgeon General, United States Army, Washington, 25 D.C. This has been another program on proudly we hail, presented and transcribed in cooperation with this station by the United States Army and the United States Air Force Recruiting Service. This is Kenneth Banghart speaking, and inviting you to tune in this same station next week for another interesting story on proudly we hail.


Let's talk a bit about the gap and how you guys quantify this gap and if there are trends maybe internationally that have motivated the Institute to really bring these things home. Yeah basically if you are you are to quantify first of all the big gaps in human capital people we need for in order to build sufficient housing at the coast at high basically there's a combination of the skillers and the people. Good evening and welcome to the private property podcast right here on our private property page it is 7 p.m. and you know what time that means it means we are talking everything property related right here and if you're joining us for the first time this is the place where we give you on the pass information about anything property related we are talking investing we are talking buying we are talking selling we are talking how to grow your overall property portfolio so if you're joining us for the first time hope you enjoy your stay here with us and you're definitely going to enjoy this trust me and if you're joining us on the Twitter spaces thank you also for joining us and we are looking forward to hearing from you tonight so if we are as the conversation goes on send us your questions send us your comments drop those green hearts let us know that you are here. So tonight I am with Henry Lukenge who is going to be speaking to us about how developers can use can now model hyper realistic building projects you know to show prospective buyers sellers and people who just really want to go into the property industry so Henry good evening and thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. It is an absolute pleasure we you know over the past couple of weeks we've been talking technology property technology and property rather you know property taken initiatives apps and things that are coming into the industry that are helping the industry to do things better so specifically tonight we are looking at how developers can now model hyper realistic projects and building projects you know how they can use augmented reality and all of these beautiful things so you are from Treated Engineering Institute and you guys have just launched into South Africa this upscaling where young people can use building information modeling you know to change the way property has has been shown over the past couple of years can you just talk us through what what your your institute does and what you guys are hoping to achieve with this program that you guys are running. So basically the aim of building information modeling is an application within a built environment that focuses on optimization efficiencies and facilities management you've got two models one is on the building side one is on the facilities management side so it means that um through through the acquisition of these skills at every level of a project right you've got the ability to to see its cost and time implications as you change you change it or modify it or as you bring um interdisciplinary skills to bring a building from from conception to completion right and then um uh there's also the other piece of what it is that then then we'll go from the completion to ongoing management of the building as a living entity through um facilities management so um what what this gives you is um a holistic approach to managing a portfolio buildings or one building depending on what you're looking what what you're trying to achieve now our um our um key um um entry or drivers for this is that um um there is um um um an extreme skill shortage and building information modeling landscape not just in Africa but around the African continent and um that's really the fact that um um um talent isn't a lot right and it's the way it is it is restricted people at post-graduate level and what we're saying is that um um um these skills don't belong at post-graduate level they belong at um um undergrad and post-high school post-primary activity because um our skills that um beam technicians have got right um um can are applicable in day-to-day um day-to-day affairs of building or managing and constructing managing construction projects irrespective of size you could do these in um a single unit multi-unit um large facilities like an airport all um um you could use um like rabies to facilities management skills um in um um uh multi-site for example refrigeration sites uh in warehousing or or um what's he called retail right there is um um a broad landscape where the skills are usable and that's why um um we we're trying to create uh but we're trying to bring these skills down to the level where an everyday pastor can pick up the skill set and then use it to um or get to participate the economy at a higher um price point sure and if we were to really talk about the discipline and talk about um building information modeling what how would how would you describe it to the layman in terms of what it does and its benefits because um to someone who is who who's a property owner or is looking at going into property um how does it look for them yeah basically is what it does for you uh for example um uh let's say you've um um you're trying to um build um a house in the ground up okay normally you get one um um uh took what what's he called um one d which is um um um your site plans or for an architect right then he used those with um the quantity surveyor to go build a house okay then um and as you get into um um the construction phase things come up you didn't foresee right then you get cost overrun then time overrun then all that stuff right however uh so the application of big game um you go 2d and 3d um which means that your entire building right is molded into a living being when it like a 3d image of the vision implication of a building when it's finished so you can then see where the plumbing is going to go where the electric is going to go where they um the paint has to look don't even move it on the computer to optimize sunlight and all all that stuff before you build it so then um once you get in the building of it you can literally tell someone you want the pipe to walk this we're not that way because if it does that we this thing these are the implications right so then uh for the four four macro projects which we call this one a project like one unit household and warehouse these things are important because then you avoid cost overrun it's time overruns you also avoid repetition where I pipe when we're here and go and you have to fix it right so this way you save the money at like a macro level right but at um at a large um um micro level uh industrial industrial scale projects you could think about the fact think it just imagine um a multi-unit site where they um um um I don't know say 20 or 50 stories with a building and you're running multiple pipes across um multiple square feet right like plumbing electrical headvark and and what's he called um um um other pieces like lighting right then um and having um a 3d model of everything as it fits and then and then having uh one or two people are able to um direct all trades on site to work concurrently without um stepping on each other's toe right and helps the builder or the project manager and the builder right achieve efficiencies without um being um um in the face of everyone because um uh beam will give you a 3d image of what even has to do when they have to do it so that as they do it other people can do what they're doing and everyone moves in the same direction right um um so the term um your your your goals are attained on time on the cost sure this this already sounds like um a revolutionary um piece of technology that can be used I just want us to talk a little bit about the gap um that you guys know systems are in Africa in terms of this so you spoke a little bit how um some of these skills are going to be broken down and children as young as um in high school can already start picking some of these skills up and how does the gap currently look when because I know that you guys just launched um this week your offices and uh for the institute on the 26th um let's talk a bit about the gap and how you guys quantify this gap and if there are trends maybe internationally that have motivated the institute to really bring these things home yeah basically um um if you are you you you are to quantify first of all the these gaps in human capital uh people we need for um um in order to to build sufficient housing at cost at high basically there's a combination of the skills and the people right to to build substantial housing portfolios to fix house um access to houses in our coastal region not just in Africa but all across Africa um you find that um um we don't have um an adequate supply of um building information technologists across the landscape from plumbing to HVAC refrigeration to general building modeling like across the land we don't have them and here is why um because um up to up to how we guys have come through um um uh these skills are being retained at post-guided level so um if you look at that and ask yourself um how many of us have degrees right not many of us have degrees regardless of how you look at it right so if not to not mean to have degrees and what a skill set that is essential to economy but only post-guidance are doing it that means um uh those skills are being retained with small percentage of people right so then then because of that you find that the ability of um of an economy to make its housing stock needs is limited because you don't have the skills you don't have enough skilled people to perform the tasks on time and on budget right so that's that's the one piece because they're that predictable then also on the on the human level it is these are these are um the the human cost of unskilled people in a country okay that human cost comes of um our youth unemployment and everything comes from urban crime to you know everything you see on the streets right like any any african city has been employed many unemployed young people right and all you're lacking is the skill set they can monetize quickly right so what what we set up to accomplish was a pick up this some complex item and then um put together a group of professionals to um put together a curriculum that is broken down into pieces that at the core level addresses the key components someone needs to um to attain excellence um in this skill set so they can take it the market quick right that's why um our setup involves um the civil certificates each of which is underpinned by industrial placement so that at any level you can pick up that skill set with the placement and then you can go into a skill straight and charge five times the price five times the rate you'd have charged it being half right and you don't have to wait for three hours to do it sure right so then on the idea the the the whole the the overall objective is that we try to um um um help the buildings industry attain two goals one um obviously um fix the human human factor shortage while um um participating or contributing to creating a more even economic field or widening or widening the opportunity gap for everyone to play with it because unlike uh because we fix the artist on the bottom we're gonna have many people from all walks of life participate in this field that wouldn't normally participate in it no definitely and that that sounds like an advantage to to a lot of young people who are in South Africa who may even have engineering um qualifications but i have not been able to really go into the field and really use them my next question is really about it being expensive because you know when someone thinks construction and thinks um engineering we are really thinking this is an expensive thing and you know combine all of that with the use of technology and the the setup cost that comes with technology let's talk about um it's expensive or how expensive this could be for one to either go into and also to maintain because you spoke about how there's there's a setup and there's also maintenance and management of property so let's talk a bit about how the expenses of the sodium um um the beauty of what we're doing is that um you could um um get a diploma and be an expert in everything or pick up certificates and be an expert in a few things then you could participate at any level of the building depending on the skills you've got okay so for example you may be an auto-car technician just being three 3d models of of uh what's it called construction projects that architects have done right you may be um auto-car and ready technician who does combines that with piping and plumbing or h-fog and plumbing then you could do all three where you combine electrical plumbing and and then painting and everything to give the building um the holistic look where you're the engineer inside having all trades all trades communicating to each other right so then at every level your period rises depending on the skills you have got right now for for for the um for the um the buildings are now corporate company owning um um a stock of unit sold facilities to maintain right you um um your efficiency is to come in having enough people who are skills who are skilled to give you the skill set at the price point that is lower than that of a postgraduate person doing it so what i mean because then you've got um potentially students out of high school having these skill sets so you don't have to retain a postgraduate charging you five times the run per hour because the postgraduate because the skill is now in a hundred someone who holds the graduate but wants the ability so so the the point is um um just just think about it as um um having for example your pipe blocked and you bring it out with a degree to fix it they're going to charge you say five thousand run these these are all hypothetical numbers okay sure but if you brought in a plumber they would charge you a thousand but it was an exact same thing sure sure right so approach to this is that um we need to um if you lower the barriers barriers to entry into this field by uh like i didn't say this before when the podcast began um uh through uh because you got tried in and got a trust which is the need of trust um which is and which is um underwriting the costs of um um developing the Cali Club and getting it approved by SACA and everyone else locally right so that once that process is completed we go to an international Cali Club we're going to adapt it to the African to the South African landscape and the needs that are local then we're going to appeal that with our what's you call um um um partnerships with the equivalent with the likes of BSI who um in in this field they help um organization the particular Cali Clans to map those Cali Clans to our international standards right so then i'll guide you we'll speak at the local skillset right that has international reputation that means that um once at any stage of the process if they graduate and have a certificate they can they can work on projects globally because they've got international certification that underpins what we're doing right so then um uh when you combine um um these pieces with the fact that the charity has underwritten our foundation and charities are but not underwritten the development costs right then um we can then turn around and as opposed to being um um um a for-profit business trying to make a lot of money um of this IP um we've turned around and um and provided it to the Trident um Engineering Institute at no price yeah right because uh the objective is that um um we need to improve to to empower many young people to pick up the skillset to get themselves and up the economic ladder and while doing that solving the housing need yeah right so that that's really how this fits we're basically because of the because we've been able to under underwrite the cost of development without expecting a return on investment yes right we're able to bring down the cost of to the entry cost to this program the lower than average like like typical um um three four-hour seminar in one of these things about 20 000 run just um just doing one or two things in autograph right and we are putting together a whole module for about 5000 run that gives someone get someone um um for example um training that that then give them the skillset right be able to be an auto car technician on the sides without having a degree sure no thank you so much thank you thank you for joining us tonight and thank you for sharing your insights with us i'm sure if as as a property owner um someone who who's willing to who's looking to build or not buy or someone who's buying and wants to know how the building is structured man this is really uh incredible for them to to look into and really start adopting thank you so much for joining us and have a good evening yeah too thank you for having me thank you it's absolute pleasure wonderful just like that we have we have reached the end of our conversation tonight where we are speaking about how you can take technology and really take your business to the next level you know we've been talking about how properties are business and how technology is going to help you to grow your portfolio you know to start and get into the portfolio and get that first property or to just manage it and make sure that it's growing from strength to strength until the next time i see you right here on the private property podcast thank you for joining us tonight and have a good night


All right. How many of you here have been in this whole blending discussion over the last two summits? Let's start with Basil. How many of you were in Basil? Boston? OK, so most of you are pretty brand new to the blending discussion. Wow. That's impressive. Just to give a quick heads up, the blending was, it started as Bern's idea of starting the discussion or the conversation between mainly Kubernetes and Cloud Foundry blending. I don't know if you all are familiar with the Will It Blend series. If you are not, then please go to youtube.com and look up Will It Blend series. It's phenomenal, fascinating, very entertaining. This is not like that. We are not blending anyone's iPhones or anyone's iPads in the blender. But it started as a discussion like that. And we did it in Boston. It was pretty interesting. And there was a lot of interest. So we continued to do it in Basil. Again, got a lot of interest. So Bern did, OK, third time's a charm. We'll do it again. So we are here again. I'm not going to go through introductions or anything because that will take pretty much half the time. I'll start with Cornelia. She had a really great question. So I'm going to go with you first. Over the years, at least for the past year and a half or something, what have we learned from all this blending? Yeah. I mean, I think that's a really great question. I love that. And then the follow-on question, I think, is even more interesting, which is what have we learned that we need to learn still? So I mean, I think that there are a few things that I would say that are quite obvious. And that is that container scheduling has commoditized, that we've learned. And that the idea of switching out the Diego container scheduler is with something like Kubernetes, sure, that makes sense. And that's something that we can do. The other thing I think that we've learned not only through the exercise of having tried out things like Irene, but another thing that I think that we've learned in the community is that there is an absolute driving need for what we've been doing in the Cloud Foundry community for the last five or six years. Yeah, without question. And I actually noticed that significantly at KubeCon in Seattle in December, because I started hearing people in the hallways and in the sessions talk about developer abstraction. And I think for a long time, there was this perception that Kubernetes was for the developer. And developers do love it because they love to play with technology. But I think there is really now this acknowledgement that Kubernetes is not a developer abstraction. It's an infrastructure abstraction. And I think that's one of the biggest things that we've learned. And when I started to reflect on the panel today, my biggest takeaway was that what we've done in Cloud Foundry in providing a set of outcomes around an abstraction that really makes all of the infrastructure concerns go away, that's been proven. And so now, how do we bring that together with the Kubernetes community? Irene is one experiment, but I think that there's other ways as well. Absolutely. So did you find in those conversations with Kubernetes users that they had maybe a preconceived notion of what Cloud Foundry was about and that they didn't really understand that the projects that are happening in the Kubernetes community to build developer abstractions are basically work that's already done. What I found with those similar conversations was like, we've been doing this since 2011. Like, all of these lessons we've learned seem to be being ignored, or not by everyone, but there's a certain component of people in the Kube community that just don't realize that some of the things that they're doing in a few different places are actually solved problem. Yeah, no, I totally agree. I don't think it's that they're ignoring what we're doing. I think it's that they weren't aware of it. Cloud Foundry is a relatively small community, especially when you compare it to the vastness of the Kubernetes community. And so I also think that a fair number of the Kubernetes community come from an infrastructure background. So they don't know what they don't know. They don't know this is kind of new for them, this idea that there's a higher level abstraction, even higher than what Kubernetes offers. I agree. And I think that's exactly the thing that's worrying. I completely agree, right? You ask around here, who understands what Kubernetes is? Most hands will go up. But you do the same thing at a Kubernetes conference. What's Cloud Foundry? A few hands will go up. And the dangers that I see for Cloud Foundry is that they are understanding the need for what we've built. And they are duplicating the same thing over and over again in several different spots, several different initiatives, not understanding what we have. And I think I'm not sure how to do this, but I think we need to somehow tell them, look, we've done a lot of this. And as a matter of fact, with projects like Ireney, it fits nicely, complements what you've already built over here. I was going to keep this question until the end. But since we are here, we've always thought of these kind of things, right? What are the different things with Kubernetes that we can integrate with? Or how can we blend Kubernetes and Cloud Foundry? But how about the other way? Like, how can we take Cloud Foundry into the Kubernetes community? What are the specific things that maybe we'll start with you since you started it? What are the specific things that would be beneficial or would be the starting points for us to make it more resonating with the Kubernetes community? Well, as a platform provider, one of the things I think that we're thinking about is how do we make Cloud Foundry discoverable out of the Kubernetes experience? We have plenty of people coming to us to instantiate Kubernetes as a service. And there's Cloud Foundry sitting on the side, but they don't know what that is. So why not expose something like Cloud Foundry as a plug-in, as an added experience, as a layer on top of premium experience on top of Kubernetes, and try to even make people aware that this actually exists? So I think we somehow have to make Cloud Foundry discoverable by people who are already using Kubernetes. The whole fact that CF is boring and invisible is not working. And in a sense, it seems like gaining that mind share comes, at least in part, from adopting components of Kubernetes. And I think a question I had was, and you were, I think, alluding to this in your question, Sorna, we're looking at things in Kubernetes to bring in to the CF world. Are there things in CF that could be brought in to the Kubernetes world, and that gaining mind share seems like the right way to do that? And it's more than just messaging. It seems like embracing technologies and building trust. Bingo. I think it doesn't serve us well if we take the feeling of, okay, well, we've got the Cloud Foundry community. Why don't we just bring, I think we have to bring ourselves to the Kubernetes community bigger than we are. Yeah. And for me, it really starts with Cloud Foundry needs to be available for the Kubernetes community in the very same way that other components on top of Kubernetes exist, like the same way how I get an Istio to Kubernetes cluster, I need to be able to do that with Cloud Foundry as well. What if you could kubectl Cloud Foundry? Yeah. Right? What a great idea. I think going back to the first question of what's been learned, I think one of the things we can learn is hype-driven development is a problem. And hype-driven development is a problem. And what I'm hearing here is, let's take the since 2011 learnings of Cloud Foundry and bring that to the hype, right? Because the reality is we're here customers, they want to know about Kubernetes, they want to know about how Cloud Foundry is, or how a Cloud Foundry customer is going to live in a Kubernetes world. And as soon as those customers realize everything you've been talking about here that Kubernetes doesn't provide anything like Cloud Foundry does, the customer starts asking for a different thing and you got close to it. They initially, I think the reaction was, let's jam these things together. I mean, this whole, does it blend? If you haven't watched the blending series, it's what it originally was. The initial arguments over Diego versus Kubernetes or even outside of this ecosystem, Mesaus versus Swarm and Kubernetes. You know, all these are old arguments now. And the whole Diego versus Kubernetes will be an old argument soon too. Because customers are starting to move into production at scale. And funnily enough, Cloud Foundry has been doing that for a long time. Yep. And so let's avoid hype-driven development. That for me is the number one lesson. And let's focus on customer-driven development. There's a lot of customers in this space that can tell us what we should be doing. Yep. Wouldn't that be awesome? Beren, you mentioned about Istio. So tell me a little more. We see a lot of these kind of concepts, right? But Istio in the resource labeling and the routing tier, et cetera. So how do folks, both within our Cloud Foundry community and outside, like within the Istio community or the Kubernetes community, see this happening? How do they see this unraveling? Yeah, I mean, Istio is another technology that definitely stems from the Kubernetes space. And I think primarily, initially folks at Pivotal said, can we look at that component and use it for the benefit of Cloud Foundry? I think we are now at a place where one thing that you could do is take Istio and bring that into the Cloud Foundry world, like build a Bosch release for it, et cetera, et cetera. That might be one possible path. I think the other thing that we see on the other hand is like, do we even need to do that or can we just use Kubernetes and Istio as the Kubernetes community would provide it and kind of leverage that for the benefit of Cloud Foundry? Yep. So kind of, this thinking makes, like, mutual reuse of components easier. Like, you don't need to always pull something out of its native ecosystem and bring it over, but you could basically keep certain aspects where they live and where they natively live and then just put Cloud Foundry concepts on top of that. And Istio is definitely one example where this applies. Yep. And I think Istio, as it relates to Knative, is a particularly interesting area where it's a little bit higher level of an abstraction on Kubernetes that aligns more closely with what Cloud Foundry generally does well. So I'm curious to see where we have opportunities to mesh there in the future. You know, there's one thing that I find it interesting that you bring up Istio as well is there, the technologies and even Knative, the technologies that we're talking about here are all things where we as the community have started to build other capabilities all around the central construct of the value of a container. And the fact that we've been doing containers in the Cloud Foundry community for longer than it's been done in the industry, sure Google was doing it, but doing it behind closed doors, the fact that we've been doing it in a platform for a long time, but that's just been a hidden implementation detail, was great. But now that the world is enamored and is starting to understand what the primitive of a container can bring for them, the types of things that they can do because they now have containers to play with as opposed to processes that are running on some machine abstractly somewhere. I think that as we bring our IP over into the Kubernetes community, doing so and saying, yep, containers are awesome. Instead of hiding that away as an implementation detail, leveraging the fact that everybody's enamored by containers, because they're not enamored by containers just because of a hype cycle, it's because it brings real value. Troy, you're closely involved with Irene as well, right? So how will Irene and Diego evolve in application on time for us? I don't know. IBM had a wonderful talk, just, I think it was here, or no, next door, just before this on Diego or Irene, which do you choose? And it was very, very well, it was fantastic, fantastic rationales for why you would choose one or the other at this point in time. So that wasn't when I was talking about this with you earlier. I wasn't actually what I was thinking. I'm thinking about down the road, if and when we prove out Irene as the best container scheduling for Cloud Foundry, do we retire Diego? Do we take out a portion that we, then we save the effort, because it takes a lot of effort to maintain these big pieces of code that were developed for a very real need. Now that they're commoditized, maybe at some point we can look at taking out pieces that we will no longer have to maintain as a community and start building new value. And that's the thing, because this is a big project. There's a lot of coding Cloud Foundry, and especially for vendors who are maintaining distributions of this, there's a lot of work to do just to keep the customers happy and supported long term over longer cycles than our tip of trunk releases. Keeping that maintained is gonna be a challenge as we add functionality. I mean we can keep adding people to the foundation and that could be great, but at some point the project might get too big to manage. If we can consume these components from elsewhere in the ecosystem discreetly using their public APIs, using the APIs that they're meant to be used with, we can lower our cost as a community for maintaining the software code base and focus on adding new value and new features. What is that value? Like what if 80% could be offloaded to existing components in the Kubernetes community? What could we deliver with the reallocation of the resources that we're maintaining that? Is it making the developer experience even better? I'm curious what you think. I can't, I have a couple of ideas. I don't have all the ideas, but I mean we have been touching on serverless and function as a service throughout this, throughout this, in much the same way that a couple of years ago we were touching on the idea of Kubernetes. Now we're talking about Knative. Now we're talking about function as a service frameworks that can plug into Cloud Foundry. How do we expose function as a service within Cloud Foundry in a way that people who are already using it can take best advantage of? Or do we bring in a really popular function as a service open source project and just make that the function as a service that we all agree to use? And that obviously might be Knative. That might be Knative bringing that in. And then all sudden you're going to have a, Cloud Foundry CLI allow scale to zero true and then all sudden you're functionless. You're using serverless. And we've had the first conversations about that is what would that look like if your Cloud Foundry app worked like a function. And we're discoverable like functions are with a function as a service platform. So those are the kinds of things we can start looking at. Yeah, I wanna build on that a little bit. You mentioned APIs and standardizing across APIs. What that does is it unlocks a whole load of things that we don't know about today. So for example, Cloud Foundry today, you're not gonna be running this on edge computing devices. It's just not gonna happen. Kubernetes isn't ideally suited to edge computing devices the way it is today. What are we gonna unlock by bringing the scale that something like Cloud Foundry has proven with those standardized APIs that we can then leverage in new places such as the edge. So I think the question is really, really important. And the reason we don't have the answers is because we're talking about technologies that have been opened up by this activity. We were really only starting to play with Irene very recently. And one of the things that Irene is based on is the orchestrator provider interface. And that was conceived as something that could allow you to connect to any orchestrator. So maybe we find an orchestrator that can install things on edge devices for a certain class of applications. I mean, I'm just throwing crazy things out there. Yeah, you said maybe. But... I guess another intriguing thought is obviously like the way how people run Cloud Foundry today is that like if you run a globally distributed system you have different foundations being deployed across the globe. How about having one Cloud Foundry control plane and then Kubernetes cluster sitting in all places around the globe and kind of using that control plane to distribute and harmonize things, harmonize deployments, roll things out in one cluster, test them there and then kind of open up to the whole world. Which obviously brings up the question of are these still separated deployments or do you need to have kind of globally available and accessible backing services next to it? What about global routing, et cetera, et cetera. But like that is at least a step in the direction of saying you don't have completely separate local deployments of Cloud Foundry running. Or we could put all those people that are freed up onto the V3 API on that. And there's another category as well. I think that there's certain use cases that every single one of our customers have that we haven't been touching upon. So for example, offloading from legacy databases or connectivity and domain frames or something like that, what does the developer API look like for that? It's not SOA, right? And but we as a community have done a remarkable job and made a lot of people successful with this very simple developer API around cloud native applications. What does the developer API look like when we start to expand into a broader set of use cases? I think it's really interesting. I think we started out talking about adopting some Kubernetes concepts as a mechanism to gain mind share in the Kubernetes community, which is valuable. But there's this other angle here, which is by addressing the undifferentiated heavy lifting and offloading that to existing things. We open up the capabilities, the capability to explore into edge computing, global routing and all of these other, and I think that it's really good to have those two motivations, you know, a community alignment, but forwarding the technology in a really meaningful way. And I think one of the possible directions is we have to keep moving up the stack, right? I mean, we've always been about the developer experience. So as things below commoditize, we move up the stack, brainstorming here. How about something like the spring framework? What if we take something like the spring framework, which is something that sort of gives a developer these primitives that they need over and over and over again, and taking building blocks like this, maybe making them language independent or something like that, and sort of making developers more productive in that way, building something like that into the platform, right? But I think we have to move up the stack, make the developer experience even better while things below us commoditize. Ross, you mentioned earlier, customer driven development would be a lot better than head driven development. So kind of picking back on that question, I was making a note, how does a Cloud Foundry user benefit from bringing Kubernetes into the ecosystem? Like what are the things that they would find it? I think there's a short term and there's a long term answer to that. And for me, the short term isn't a great deal in all honesty, because Diego works, right? And it works at scale. Why replace it for no immediate benefit? The long term, though, is where the real value lies. By doing this short term work with no real benefit that we can see, we open up the things we were just talking about. There's a whole load of things that we as a community here aren't necessarily going to address because we're dealing with existing customers, we're dealing with existing style things, but we all want to move forward. And there's an awful lot of momentum behind that hype, right? And you're absolutely right to call it out. It's not just hype. There is a lot of reality inside of that as well. And so what the customer benefits from is an unlocking of that activity. You refer to the emerging or the bringing together of the ideas in the two communities and so on. That's what open source is about. It's about innovating across different teams, across different goals. And that, again, is the benefit that we bring in the medium to long term thing to customers. We as engineers and product designers and all the different titles we have in the room, we can deliver solutions that customers don't even know they want yet. And if we don't do this, we might not be able to do that because we're not able to bring that integration across different solutions. And Baron, kind of a corollary question. How does a Kubernetes user, I think it's already been discussed, but how would a Kubernetes user find it valuable to bring Cloud Foundry into their ecosystem? I mean, Cornelia mentioned that already. Like there's many people in the Kubernetes ecosystem who seemingly are kind of reinventing concepts that are already established in the Cloud Foundry world. And I guess my standard question to people saying, I can just use plain Kubernetes is, like, do you really want to deal with those low level constructs? Like, do you really want to deal with operating system updates, rolling updates, blue-green updates, et cetera, et cetera? Or do you want to focus on developing your business logic, your business application, your business services? So if they're building everything that's already existing or that has already been built by Cloud Foundry ecosystem, are they, is it resume-driven development now? Like, has it become, has it come to that? Maybe a bit. And yeah, that's kind of a controversial question, I guess. But yeah. I have to ask. Referring back to that hype-driven development, you definitely also see that in the resumes, right? Like, certain keywords. I won't lie. I'm glad I can put Kubernetes on my resume. I'm not looking. I'm not looking. But I'm glad that I have Kubernetes on my list of skill sets. I mean, none of us in this room would argue against that. But it's because it's a, not only because of the hype, but it's a very valuable skill set to have because you can do so much. And something I saw several times last year was this hype-driven development has led to FOMO-driven adoption. Where if you're making this, this big, and I feel so good that I can use it. I like that. I'm gonna steal that one. But I mean, it is this conscious recognition of we're choosing to undergo a digital transformation. We're not a technology company. And we know that Cloud Foundry solves its problems for us, but we can hire Kubernetes people. It's everywhere that the community is so big and so we feel like we don't know that Kubernetes will give us what we need, but we're gonna place our bets there because it just seems to have momentum. No one was ever fired for buying Kubernetes. It's the new thing. Is that the new thing? That means, at least now. It's the safe choice now. As of now. We're all gonna tweet it. How far will this blending go? We will start with you. How far, like, what will, I think it was, just to give a little more context. I think Jules once tweeted that Cloud Foundry is like this massive ship where there's different parts and individual elements can be replaced or can be made more pluggable. So how far will this blending go and what will see Cloud Foundry remain as? That's an interesting question. I think it could go several ways. So first of all, I don't like the term blending that much. It's more like a well-constructed layer cake. Burnt? Yes. Blending sounds very messy, right? It's your fault. I know, I take the blame. We are renaming this panel from next time. So I think what we're seeing sort of is as new technologies mature, we're taking them in after they become production-ready, and now it's Istio, it's Kubernetes, I'm sure we're gonna be looking at Knative and things like this next. And then I think the question remains, what do we do with that freed up developer resource? Either we can move up the stack. I think that's one option. The other option is that Cloud Foundry sort of becomes this curated set of open-source technology that work well together. A lot of customers that we talk to tell us, we look at this gigantic chart of all these open-source projects. Oh my God, which ones are the right ones? Should we get some of each? Help us. And Cloud Foundry is an opinionated way, just like we have guardrails for developers. We have sort of an opinionated way of these are the projects that go well together. These are mature. This is how you put them together. This is how you deploy apps onto them, right? That might be the other thing that Cloud Foundry is gonna become over time. I hope it's gonna be more than that. I hope that we're moving up the stack and making the developer experience even better. But I think the danger is that that's where Cloud Foundry is gonna remain at some point because it's gonna get hollowed out more and more as we're adopting these things. Yeah, but what's interesting about that, I completely 100% agree. The way that we've expressed that opinionated stack is through code. That's what we've done up until now is that expression of the opinionated stack was in GitHub, in CF release. And all of the pieces were there. And now as we express what that looks like, it's actually in many ways a much harder problem if we don't own all of the components that make up the Cloud Foundry stack because now what we're talking about is we express that opinion through some form of integration. It's not a white paper because white papers aren't something that somebody can just download and issue a few commands. But what does that look like? Cloud Foundry becomes an integration and we probably, well, almost certainly need to invest in some tools that are glue tools, that are integration tools, where before we just expressed it all in the same code base. And this also brings up an interesting question about certification. Certification until now has been you ship these bits because the Cloud Foundry bits. Now if we're starting to sub out components, and this is starting to come up now, we're just having these discussions. What qualifies a Cloud Foundry system as being certified Cloud Foundry if it's using different backend components? And I think the answer is API conformance and tests of those APIs through a really robust and extensive test framework. More than just cats, you know, something that really tests everything a developer or an operator can do with this system. And that's a lot of work. I admit that's a lot of work. It's in fact easier to say just ship this code that we've all agreed and that we're all working on. But if now we've got two things, two components that do the same thing, how do we ensure that they do exactly the same thing and that a customer who goes from one distribution to another or from one Cloud provider to another is gonna have the same experience? Because that's the huge value that we bring against all of these upstart passes in the Kubernetes community which are well conceived but there's a lot of them. And there's a lot of people working together on Cloud Foundry and that's a huge thing. And we wanna keep that consistency while allowing us to use these commoditized components and to do exploratory work moving up the stack which is gonna bring in different technologies either from CNCF or from even elsewhere. Yep, great. Okay, you're exactly on the dot 410. I was hoping to leave at least enough time for a question or two but since we have a huge panel I will let the rest of the folks kind of connect with each of them individually if you have a specific question to any of them. I'm pretty sure we can, the folks will be here for a few minutes. Yeah, for a little bit, sure. So, thank you very much. I really appreciate this. This has been the third time and it has really worked. We will probably start working on the renaming maybe call it cross community collaboration or something like that. Or cross collaboration. Like the layer casing. The layer casing. Layer cake is good. Layer cake. Okay, layer cake is good. I know when layer cake is good. What comes out of the blender? Smoothie. Smoothie. Smoothie. All right, thank you so much, y'all. Thank you so much. Thanks for joining us.