TLO what's we are on twitch? We are not live, but you can leave a like comment subscribe turn on your post notification bells Man, let's continue to grow the family from Chicago to the UK Even though I'm in Miami, you know I'm saying speaking of Miami. I just came from a food festival So sorry if I got brisket or Or jerk chicken and my teeth or something like that my bad G or cheese and chicken and finata or whatever Literally man, this is what dreams are made of I just asked the world I Just asked the YouTube Hierarchy I just said this where is Niko That's how y'all told me to say it Niko Niko Niko Niko Niko Niko Niko Anyway, man, I pranked America's most racist man. Oh My god speaking of racism. I was just in a town called Plantation and little Little this is Florida. Look it up Plantation, Florida And every house is built on like a acre or two and I think it's just reparations That I they might as well call a reparation town because that's what I just felt that it was Like if you want some reparations like come there get you a acre to literally cotton fields used to be on the art Y'all don't want to hear that And then when I was leaving who was mowing the lawn Somebody this color this is a merit. He was this color. I'm this color. He was this color. I was like wow Because most racist man and this is the story of how I found this man and tricked him into giving me an interview But the craziest thing about all of this is that it was all an accident Because originally I was traveling to Harrison Arkansas because based off the videos I've seen online. Oh, that's where Gideon just went But it was a nice town. I mean it didn't work that way. It's America's most racist town And as I have a lot of history trolling racists I Thought I was definitely qualified to go down there to see this town for myself and find out if it really is Definitely, you're more than qualified.  This is kind of hard if you had this in red or blue I want it So I traveled from London all the way to Northwest Arkansas. We're here. Well, we're not here yet We have to get a taxi Hold on. I see something coming out of here hippie hippie as hell You see that right there? You see that sleeve? And then we're gonna be there and unfortunately there were no taxis So I had to try and hitchhike my way into getting someone to drive me all the way to Harrison Which is a two-hour journey. Yeah Harrison. Yeah So basically we here it's the most racist town in America. Oh, yeah. Yeah Yeah, that's why I came the whole way. I'm saying we get a road trip to Harrison. I really want to take you I have to catch a movie If I was there, bro, I would have took you.  Don't be right. But like I would have took you there man pause And what times your movie You think Yeah, yeah, we're not killers First thing we have to do we just have to prove that we're not killers is the fast ones This is where I just got the zip tie No, no, buddy, have you guys heard much about Harrison?  I need to watch that video man. That's that sounds like comedy in itself Okay, so it's like that and you feel like I should be nervous going I've I think I've seen worse in south illinois like I stopped with her gas going on the road trip in south illinois and I was like We're not in chicago anymore Like chicago is the only spot where chicago or chicago land area. It's diverse the rest of illinois Can't call it Oh my gosh, george. What we did ourselves This was already sounding like a bad idea and to make things worse Nicko told us a story about nicko his friend who went to high school there. So your friends Every day after school he didn't stick around any longer than he needed to be straight to his mom's car Go man, what for real what we getting ourselves into Why are you scared? You should be smiling right now. This is probably safer than England This is um, I believe to be Harrison We're a couple minutes away from our hotel And then uh, we're gonna start exploring. Thank you so much. Anybody with the name Harrison is questionable. No, I'm just I do want to give you some cash because obviously you drove us all the way down there hotel severely Thank you so much. Here we go. So I waved off our good friend daniel and just like that We had arrived in the most racist town in america Even this looks racist. I don't know. It's something about the grid work It's something about the layout of Harrison that just doesn't sit right with me It's too many trees and I don't Blood on the leaves Beef I just I don't Time to go into this hotel it is actually on the national register of historic places so uh Mental stuff's gone down here. Hello. How you doing? Perfect. You want torture? Just come down and I'll torture you. Yeah, we'll we'll talk again barry. What kind of Now have a lift ever felt like a horror movie It's this one Here we go. Now We just got to go explore the town a little bit for inda. Where's best for like nightlife here? Good luck Square off we go into the darkness now this one This feels scary. Wait, you moving different. Nobody went there during that night time. You know that night You light-skinned it but you're not wide Wait a minute. It's good Yeah Oh, I wonder why george to be honest going out late in a town that is seen as the most racist town in america alone I won't say after dark man might be the stupidest thing i've ever done on this channel and that is saying something I presume this is the square and This place is dead and just like that. We started with our first local resident of harrison arkansas We're new to this place. We're just filming a documentary for the bbc Where's the poppin? Where's the knife life going on? No nightlife. No Nothing. No, no This is Yeah, it's crazy. You got any friends around here? Uh, we're actually playing uh, could we join you? Uh, Let me let me go double check. Hey, there's a Black man that wants to play cars. Thank you so much for letting us. Sorry. What's your name? Richard nicholas and richard here had brought us into the land. It seems pretty nice.   What car does he play? This is shipwreck marsh We played a game called magic the guy This is the only acceptable person that should be playing this car.  Got you. All right, so Yeah, draw card. No from you. Oh Yeah, of course But then I became a prestige 1000 level wizard and all of my fellow magicians respect Which meant I could ask them to tell me the truth about this town We were sent here on behalf of the bbc because we were told that harrison is actually The most racist town in america.  Yeah, so whereabouts are they? That sounds about right. I heard about zinc I feel like i'm watching an episode of ozark. Is this where ozark was filmed? Like i'm i'm i'm where's the girl with the curly hair that looks like justin timberlake What's going on? So these racist places as a black person myself, it doesn't make sense for me to go to at all What would they do if they saw me? Trust me if you went there The police too? No, not the police The police are bothering you because of your skin. That's crazy This was honestly a shocking start the stuff they were telling me was so bad It didn't sound like real life and although these guys seem cool I mean, I even took rich's number I still needed to dig deeper as that was just one group's opinion So I went and found this bar to speak to a few more.  Huh?  I came that i'm gonna say What what what's the name? I thought i was gonna say i just got a lot of food together Over in zinc. I think it's a little church So there's a mystery man in zinc who is the leader of the racist group. Is it safe in zinc? Not bad, man. If y'all hear Y'all can't hear that ceiling fan, but there might be a clicking noise. I don't hear it in my headphones right now So we might be good. Would they like people like me? Don't think so. I didn't know about it till maybe two years ago I was because this racist group's name start with a clue and end up with a clan Yeah, you are so wise gandalf He's been nice. See this is why they don't like us in Harrison We think everything funny Master in zinc. I can't you can't say his name. He shall not be named. No, I'm not scared of him He's an old grandfather Like me. I mean, but you are good and he is bad. What is his name gandalf? I can't tell you clearly some dark magic must happen when you say this man's name But from our first night we found out some very interesting information Which were helping me build an opinion on harrison arkansas What i'm thinking so far is everyone who I've spoken to this is why I like nico nico nico Nico This is why i'm like mr. O Because he puts a lot of effort behind here. He's not like me just reacting to other people's stuff Sorry But he puts a lot of effort behind this It's tough I like it man. And then whoever's editing this is just a great editor. He's almost top tier like me I consider myself one of the best editors on the platform, so Seems proper nice and welcoming. They're telling me that the people in this town aren't racist But it's just one area that just so happens to be very racist And it just so happens to be a mystery leader who is like the most racist man in the world It seems so like I feel like we should dig into that a little bit But we're also being warned away. I don't know if we're gonna end up risking our lives for youtube We'll find out Again Day two. This was my opportunity to explore the town James i'm huge But the same things I can't say your regular name, so don't get repeated That's what I keep hearing it's zinc because that's where the retired Korean wizard is the kkk Interest the grand wizard honestly a lot of people don't care for it So it's actually sad that you guys have now been given this reputation because of the grand wizard. Yeah Oh my gosh, it's there. Look at it It's not racist to love people White pride radio.com cold. You know what's interesting the fact they changed it. They changed this Red radio.com And it's not racist one You know what's interesting the fact they changed it. They changed this sign to make it more uh friendly They've modernized it. Now the billboard said harris. Is that really a radio station? Ozark strong This is where Ozark was shot I knew it It's strong, but not a single person I'd spoken to seemed to endorse it But that definitely doesn't mean that racism isn't here. It just means I haven't seen it yet could do with some representation So I went into the town center with the hope that racism would reveal itself I went to get some food I met a delightful friend group and to be honest the craziest thing I'd seen wasn't even racist It was just something that's shopped by English mind to make it look like I'm talking to the camera I just can't believe it right now because right behind us there's a kid with a gun Oh, yeah, man, that's the south Open carries everywhere, man.  At least to where I am in Florida But don't worry not all kids were shooting guns. Some were shooting hoops basketball going on. Who's the best basketball player here? That's you. Yeah, what's your name? They call me ringside.  I've got 20 dollars If you miss you're done for Oh, he's good. I think you're gonna fumble the bag. Oh That was disrespectful guys. I'm a basketball player. I'm a basketball player Oh, if you're gonna have that in my locker, I played basketball Oh, you got one. Where you go? What you got? Sorry, I'm sorry I won't miss Congratulations the cannon. I appreciate it. I know you're good. I know you're good at this game Chunks I'm chunks. Yeah, I'm chunks. If I'm being honest everyone had accepted me in this town Even Richard from the magic game came back to me up with me from the videos which we've seen online It looks like the whole town is racist. They make it look like the whole town is racist. I haven't seen anything I've seen people like you the reason from around the world Is because we have a kkk leader that actually lives like 15 miles away So why am I focusing on Harrison when one of the main reasons this town has seen is the how what is the The the intake on tourism right now must be crazy in Harrison Like y'all are getting like a lot of influencers coming that big ones jiddy on in this guy Mr. O Like most racist town in America is because Duke Dennis was here with me the leader of the kkk I think I've realized that this man has given all the people from this town a bad name He put up the billboard and he's the one who holds the racist marches So far my experience of this town has been positive. There's been people like Richard who actively wanted to help me He literally agreed to take me wherever I wanted for free But it was even crazier when I spoke to him and found out the daily struggles he goes through every day I've had multiple lake surgeries. I need to have a foot surgery But really? Yeah, I've been putting that on the back burner for quite a while. They wanted $3,200 up front Really? Yeah, and every day you're feeling that.  I know it It's just the part of life for me This man is literally going through constant pain Yet he still wants to help me and by no means am I saying that nobody in this town is racist I just don't think it's fair to say that this is the most racist town Where the main reason they have this reputation is because of a man who doesn't even live there So I think it's time for me to take my focus And declare war on the KKK and Whoever their mystery leader is what better place to start than Walmart the place featured in that viral video So I suited up and spoke to the people Literally came from the uk just to document this area for on behalf of the bvc What's with this town and the whole connection to the KKK? And where would they have those meetings? The hotel they'd be in the hotel Seville So they were having meetings in the hotel, which we're in right now.  Oh my gosh.  So you're you're with it, man You're with the cause Fight the power But it was time for me to find out who the wizard was and how I could find it I was wondering if you could help me. I hear the great leader of the KKK or the grand leader of the KKK is in zinc I have the foggiest idea. Can you draw me a map? On where we can go to find them. Well, that's just helping me. He's drawing me a map just to find um someone I'm not drawing your map because I don't know what you're looking for. I don't know where it's at or what would Okay, do you know anyone who would? So, um, we're just doing a documentary here for the BBC and we're trying to find the grand leader of the triple K K mark In zinc and and whereabouts is this compound? Zinc road If you could just put it put it down. It's just easier for us to follow the map Oh It's supposed to be a big mansion.  All right. Yeah, this is honestly Thank you so much. You should be proud of your parents. They've really helped me here today for the cause Yep, let's go Yeah Just like that the moment we discovered who the grand wizard of the KKK was an inside man from the KKK called The police on us and they escorted us off the property. Well, we've now left so Hi, there's this niche right over there the wizard obviously, you know what?  It's like they got those for free there or something He has people here trying to stop us from finding him But it was too late because I already had his name Thomas Robb leader of the Ku Klux Klan and something tells me he's not a very nice person my friend We have the illegal aliens. That's bad enough.  Well, this is almost a documentary.  There was only one man. I wanted to take me there Is that my favorite man from Arkansas? Richard? Thank you so much, man. Nice to see you again. Yeah, amazing to see you man Today we're going on adventures together Absolutely. What we do have here, which potentially hopefully you can take us to is a map to zinc I was wondering if you could take us there I'll do my best. Thank you, my friend. The map gave us the key which has now activated the route So I made myself look presentable and I headed to the place where everyone said the racists reside Feeling nervous? I've heard a lot of things about zinc and absolutely none of it was positive Now this looks like a place called zinc. Unfortunately the map only seemed to take us to the town of zinc We couldn't see this mansion that had been so beautifully drawn out But the town population is literally 100 so I was confident we could track him down But it didn't take our trailers, woods And tractors. Long for us to get attacked Oh great Great. What's going on? Listen dogs.  Listen calm down you racist dog Yeah, that's what I thought. Honestly, I know what he's been Chill dog, leave me alone. George is right there. George is so close to him and he's going for me But luckily we ended up finding this guy who gave us directions. Hi my friend Um, we we're just here to interview. Uh, thomas rob And this because deep into zinc there was no going back now Have you lost signal No signal You quite possibly could get shot or hurt and then try to sue resulting in a long drawn out corp better You will lose because this sign will be presented. Yeah, true Here's that house. All right. We're looking on a kkk leaders door Thank you Oh my gosh, here we go I don't think this is preset up. This is crazy Oh, man, they got the red lawn chairs. Oh, man Confederate speak this person Hello, my friend I'll need to leave I'm here on behalf of the bbc Are we not able to have a conversation? Okay. Oh, how can I give you a call?  Oh, we'll call you up Okay, thank you Yeah, I was in so we're now going to try and do this properly By booking in an interview with him tomorrow and hopefully Uh, we could make something work the only reason he's not no cap if you came on my property like that I don't care. What color you are. That would have been like the sanctum that broke go home Like you want to interview call me up properly. Let's set a price And then we can get it happening, but like not randomly. I'm in a bad mood. I don't got my I don't got my my my my my proper suspenders on. I don't got my proper, you know checkered shirt You know, I'll say I gotta get out an interview with me is because I told him I worked for the bbc So I'm gonna run with that and say that we're running a positive story on the kkk And hopefully that tricks him into accepting an interview Hello, is this thomas rob? Here we go Hello, yes, I'm here. I'd love to get an interview with you. Um, I've come from the uk to speak to you We're trying to do a story on why the kkk isn't racist. Uh, we basically just want to uh, talk it all over Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. Bye I can't believe it. You know, we did that impossible.  I'm from the bbc He just thinks this is some important thing Isn't that like, isn't that elite? Well, whatever, you know, I'm reacting to y'all material. So In the same boat Yeah, oh my gosh.  So I'm definitely going to be taking advantage of that For years, thomas robb has had interviews and so I'm definitely going to be taking advantage of that Is that jiu? For years, all right, we're here together. Okay.  I genuinely want to find out and then we start the trolling But god, there is no organization more racist than the kkk So I'm genuinely scared to hear what he's gonna say Focus Thomas robb and with the kkk Here we are No, pick up tom. I'm are on camouflage four two three four different patterns of camouflage It's broad daylight. Thank you Hello Nice to meet you Yeah, where wherever you think is best I'm about to interview the leader of the kkk and run with the name I'm are not this could go very wrong. I might not. What's your name? I'm are I'm are I'm are nonce. What are the pieces you've done? Have you heard of the english defense league in the UK? Well, I haven't have you heard english defense league? Okay, so you know about the english defense league. Okay. Yes. So basically the english defense league They just basically want to keep england for english. Oh, that's unreasonable. So you didn't review them? Welcome to the BBC here with thomas robb. My name is thomas robb. I'm the national director That's the Ku Klux Land. I'm here with I'm our north and not not not. So I I'm are nonce nonce n o n s Can you say nonce? Oh n o n s So nonce nonce. Yes, perfect. Nonce. I'm here with I'm our nonce So now we can just do that from the top. I'm thomas robb. I'm here with I'm our nonce And he's with BBC. Yeah, we're here. Have an enjoyable conversation about about my involvement with the Knights of the Ku Klux Land I'm national director and welcome here to the Ozarks. Thank you. Thank you very much. Really appreciate this This is the highlight of my career. The highlight your career. Honestly, I'm being I'm being real. No, it is This is great. Could you just tell us about the kkk? When people hear the name kkk all kinds of images come through the mind We read his books that the Klaylor ignite to subdue and put down black people The purpose is we don't view ourselves as being anti-black. We want to preserve our heritage. We want to preserve our culture We want to preserve who are our identity. You want to stay white. There's nothing.  Did you get like assigned? Did they like start you off on like quests or anything? I was I was always involved In I don't care what he's involved in if I'm honest I just wanted to move on to the more important questions. Have you seen any of like the other clans out there? I've seen clans like phase climb up the climb. I just think that Oh my god, he said phase climb But after a while, I thought these guys are idiots. Yeah, I didn't Disconnected these people Oh, man. Hello. Welcome. It's me when people say, you know, what do you think of the people who say? Would that be someone from phase climb here? So I finally stopped speaking of other views and so I feel that if I would Climb up the climb.  Yeah, I didn't want to connect with these people So I finally stopped speaking other groups and so I feel that if I would have joined the pursuit career I could have very been very successful those careers also Yeah, they mean well, but they just don't have what it takes to take their client for the to the levels of the Would there be someone from phase climb? Yeah We don't discriminate In this church So could I come to this church? No, okay. No, make sense Hey, look how I turned No, absolutely So could I come to this judge? No. No, okay. No make sense. Yeah. Yeah, fair enough What do you think of the people who say that you're racist? What do you mean by a racist?  I've got prejudice. Of course. Everybody has prejudice.  No, everybody does have prejudices. I agree. Like no, I'm no cat. We all do just cut it out. I prefer being around white people I'm sorry.  I'll be your friend But you're not gonna come to my house for barbecue. Oh, you wouldn't invite me. No. Oh fair enough. Yeah Yeah, make sure that's crazy. A black man is not invited to the barbecue to the cookout. That's tough Is that because of color? Yeah. Okay. Yeah I'm a sympathist.  I understand that I prefer being around my family than some strange family Me personally as a fan of fan of you. I'm not trying to portray all the kkk as racist.  I think I even think the lie out. Get it out my boy. I have no desire for that I feel I feel I feel a compassion for a young black mother who child is get caught up in the drugs Or get shot by a drive-by shoot I feel as much compassion for them How do we even get there? I probably feel more compassion for a white child. I have I just have to say that I personally I believe that the black people in this country would be much better off With somebody like me was running things than the liberal crackpots. They got a worsen dc today Why has there never been like a kkk party in this country? Okay up until we just look down the lens I always say this part.  We'll call that that's not the way it is today Yeah, things have changed right your way is going to go back in my mind. Maybe I'm wrong I'll always always say well, maybe I'm wrong but until White people reek once again control this nation black people will be unsafe In their old neighborhoods by their own people from what you've said, I really respect you speak from the heart like this I actually did some documenting in the uk as well where there was a group of supporters for the kkk in a town called clapped man, I think that honestly If you could shout out the the people from clapped the supporters of the kkk in clapped Did anybody out there in the uk uk yeah in the uk in clapped in the uk irland scotland wales england Howdy, I just know they would have appreciated a shout out shout out to the people from clapped shout out Thomas is a clapped guy I don't really know the clapped people No, you are you are okay. I'm on clapped. All right. Forgive me clapped people Oh Clapped it was time for me to reveal the ace up my sleeve We run a group in the uk called the uk stand with um the kkk We made a post of me and you together and we mentioned if anyone wanted to shout out Maybe we picked three names and you just shout them out. There are your supporters Thank you all the people from the uk stand with kkk right here We have thomas and he is going to be shouting your names out. I I map Who say I map you say I don't know my I map you say but I map you say says can't wait If I guess for the interview so Oh my god, and then we got a he's so upbeat. He loves it. He loves what's going on BL BL BLM Yeah, so he's the best I guess I'm our shout out to you and then to shout out to who? To BLM I don't know that guys.  Oh, this is some of the best stuff I've ever seen in my life All these people and that's oh man have a lot of supporters in the uk. Thank you so much for chatting the matter Let's round it up properly because um We'll look down the lens introduce your name properly. So just say I'm thomas member of kkk. I've enjoyed now. I'm just bbc I'm thomas ralph. I have a national director for the Knights of the kukta clan and I enjoyed this Uh interview with with the bbc. No, it's this bbc. So it's just I've enjoyed this bbc. It's a bbc interview I've enjoyed this bbc. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. No, it's been a proper deep interview I appreciate you taking this bbc. Don't mind the first mixed race person in this chart We've had reports of every bbc Here before years ago. Oh, so this is the second time you've had a bbc You've had a proper deep experience with the bbc. Yeah, okay, great. Thank you. Thank you so much thomas robb You have no idea what you've just done. I'm not the bbc I'm just a random man making a mockery of everything you stand for. I won't touch that just in case I Listen to great. Okay bbc here. We have the flag of the kukta clan All right, oh Okay of the knights party. So they're different Okay Okay bbc Here we have the flag. Oh, wait. Wait. We haven't got the shot yet and here we have the flag of the knights party Honestly, man, you've you've you've really smashed this interview We need to wrap it up You've got you've got stuff to do thomas robb Leader of the klu Klux Klan has taken this bbc Thank you very much. What? Such a deep interview Oh And was now One final question to ask him. I didn't mean to ask about the the hoods in the clan. Do you ever wear those hoods the pointy things? Okay, all right, and just as a like a side question have have you ever like made love with the hood on Yeah, okay. Well fair enough. That's a yes clearly. Let's get this pic and uh I'm all guys at this moment. Thomas robb had realized he had been swindled And he was burning so never made love with the hood He didn't didn't say no thomas Oh great Okay, perfect appreciate you thomas. Thanks for the interview. She's got bbc Though they got a scope on you somewhere better be calmed down We tricked this man into thinking we were the bbc and now this man will never take an interview ever again He will have trust issues for the rest of his life Yeah, I know well you're all a bunch of clapped guys here come down to clapped in the uk because anyone from the kkk is clapped Clap guy big up Big up man respect What we have done today, this is what america is all about really And I I appreciate that you came from the uk to do this This is what everyone always this is this should be played in classrooms All around the world Slash country, this is we got the leader of the kkk arguably the most racist man in the world to shout out blm You know how funny that is and he has no idea absolutely no clue He said that I disgraced myself by asking him if he makes love with his hood off Like he hasn't disgraced himself with his words But listen my friends we do this number one because it's right But also because we wanted to get to the bottom of the story harrison arkansas is not a racist town However, it is home To the most racist person But the heart of arkansas has incredible people like richard and that's what we're going to take away I'm not going to say there's no racism in harrison because of course there is people have obviously experienced racism there And it definitely exists, but to label the entire town as racist is just not true And it's not fair on many of the great people who live in harrison Including the ones that I met like richard the man who literally helped me prank the kkk one of the world's most feared Don't say that because they're gonna get on richard up. They're gonna get on richard booty Leave leave richard out of this Richard got a move at the organizations and he did this after knowing me for 48 hours That's ridiculous. And there was one final thing I needed to talk to him about all right, richard I have a confession to make I don't actually work for the bbc I kind of figured that a few days ago at what point did you realize your education? You said you only went to uni for one day. So at that point you realized I just didn't have the guts to then tell you I didn't work for the bbc But honestly you have made this whole journey you couldn't have done any of this without you and I feel like you are the Honestly, just the moment I've been waiting for this is these heartfelt moments. They always give me man They always make me want to do something great as a representation of harrison arkansas I was really sorry to hear about What you were telling me about the other day with your like foot and the surgery and all of that I wanted just because you're a great guy to help you out. So what I've done. I've got a thousand dollars And then I want to send you a further four thousand dollars later on as well. Thank you Just because you're a great guy richard, honestly, you are an amazing guy. Thank you So, um, hopefully you can get your foot surgery. You're a living legend my friend. Thank you It really is low key richard and richard got a lid here. We don't from the bottom of my heart Thank you. This is one of the nicest things that anyone's done for me in a long time and uh It's been a while It's been a while. Listen man. It's all right, man. Let it out rich Of any any way I can help you. I'm glad give me a hug man. Give me a hug. Thank you Thank you man. Honestly, it wouldn't have been the same without you I really appreciate you man. Honestly, just your outlook on life. I would have finished this really, really happy Well, my friends, we came to this random state in america and met some great people But I can safely say I will never be returning here again as the KKK now have a direct reason to target me So my friends of the NDL we have defeated another enemy Oh, no way. It's Daniel from earlier from the when we gave us a little Target me. So my friends of the NDL we have defeated When he gave us a little to the hotel he came all the way to see us all He did another enemy. Please like and subscribe. This is the greatest I don't know what more I could it's I'm gonna post this subscribe like all of that T. L. Lee will like comment subscribe turn on your post notification This man is one of the greatest to ever do it, bro salute


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Hello and welcome to the session in which we would look at two topics. The cancellation of debt and the taxation of prices and awards. Both of these items are listed on schedule one which is additional income and adjustments and all additional income is added then transferred flow to other income online 1040. So what does that mean? That means cancellation of debt and prices of prices and awards are taxable. However, there's always exception to the rules and this is what we need to talk about. Starting with prices and awards. Before we proceed any further, I have a public announcement about my company farhatlectures.com. Farhat Accounting Lectures is a supplemental educational tool that's going to help you with your CPA exam preparation as well as your accounting courses. My CPA material is aligned with your CPA review course such as Becker, Roger, Wiley, Gleam, Miles. My accounting courses are aligned with your accounting courses broken down by chapter and topics. My resources consist of lectures, multiple choice questions, true-false questions as well as exercises. Go ahead, start your free trial today, no obligation, no credit card required. The first thing I want you to think about when you think of prices and awards is this picture here, which is Matt Murphy, a college student from Queen and Barry Bonds, the baseball player. Now Matt Murphy caught the home run, the 756 home run for Barry Bonds and as a result that catch was worth $600,000. So the baseball that he catches is worth $700,000. Can he keep it? Sure he can. Can he keep it? However, you received a price for $600,000. What do you have to do at the end of the year? Well, you have to compute your taxes and let's assume 20%. Your tax bill will be $120,000, most likely $600,000 is approximately 30%. So you have to pay. If you want to keep that ball, that's fine, but you have a tax bill of $180,000. Now some value the ball at the baseball at $500,000, some $600,000, but to make the point is if you receive any sort of a prize or an award, generally speaking, there's always an exception, you have to pay taxes on that. How can someone get out of it? How can someone get out of this prize as an award? Well, they're included in the taxpayer gross income at fair value. However, an exception applies if all the following conditions are met. So let's take a look at the all the conditions. The price or the award is received in recognition of religious, charitable, scientific, educational, artistic, literacy, literally civic achievement, for example, Nobel Prize, faculty teaching awards, so on and so forth. Two, the recipient immediately transferred the prize or award to a qualified governmental unit or nonprofit organization. So okay, that's fine. You received it, but you are going to transfer it immediately. And the recipient was selected without any action on his or her part to enter the contest or the proceeding. So simply put, you won this award, you did not even ask for it. Also the recipient is not required to render substantial future service as a condition for receiving the prize or the award. And simply put, just make sure we understand this, that if you have to work for this award, it becomes earnings, then it's taxable. So you have to meet all of these four conditions. And what's the easiest one to do? Avoid the inclusion by rejecting, just say, thank you very much. I reject the award. You don't have to be responsible for it. So this is what you would do as well. Something close close to prizes and awards are damages, damages awards. What's damages award? If you, if somebody did something wrong to you and let's assume you have a business and someone ran and render car into your business and you have to close for a week. Well, guess what? You're going to be receiving damaged award from the insurance company or from the insurance company of the plaintiff. Well, a damage award that represent compensation for lost profit since your store was closed. Guess what? That's gross income that the IRS wants you to pay taxes on. You didn't get it from your store, but you got it from the award punitive damages.  That's punitive. Well, loss for personal reputation should also be included in gross income. Now let's talk about the cancellation of that. And what's the cancellation of that is, is when someone forgive the debt that you owe them. They say, forget about it. We don't want your money. We don't want the money. That's it. Let's call a close case. Now let's talk about the cancellation of that. What's the cancellation of that is when the taxpayer that is canceled or forgiving? Well, they should report this as taxable income for the amount of the debt. Let's assume you owe $5,000 on your credit card and what's forgiving? Well, guess what? That $5,000 becomes income to you. An exception occurs when the debt is discharged because the taxpayer is insolvent. And what is insolvent? It means you have negative equity. What is negative equity? It means you have more debt than assets. This is when you have negative equity in which the cancellation of the debt is not taxable. Well, guess what? You don't have money to pay anything, let alone pay taxes on that additional income. Also, canceled non-recourse secured loan. That's also, that's also an exception for closure on your main residency on your main home. They took your home because you lost your job or whatever the reason is, it's treated as a sale. It's treated as a sale. It's not a forgiveness of that. Basically, you don't have to include this. Also forgiving student loan by lender, by, for example, the financial institution from 2021 through 2025 are not included in income. Let's take a look at this example. Jane borrowed $20,000 from ABC Bank to purchase a car. That's a great. The loan was payable over a period of four years. In the middle of the fourth year, Jane lost her job and defaulted on the loan. Well, what would, what would Jane do? She negotiated with the bank to see if they can cancel the remaining balance, which was $3,500. The bank did agree. Well, if they do cancel your balance, they will send you a form called 1099C and they would, they would report the 3,500 in addition, in addition to your wages as taxable, as taxable income. Now, I was in practice the year 2006 up to 2009. And if you remember anything, we had the financial crisis and in 2009, we had a lot of 1099C. So I saw a lot of 1099Cs because businesses were defaulting, especially construction companies, they were defaulting on their assets. So it's something I was pretty familiar with, with this for 1099C. What should you do now? Go to Farhat Lectures. Look at additional resources, multiple choice through false.  Accounting is worth it. Good luck. And of course, stay safe.


North Korea's leader has ordered the military to be ready to completely destroy the United States and South Korea. North Korean leader Kim Jong-un ordered his military to thoroughly annihilate the United States and South Korea if provoked, state media reported, after he vowed to boost national defenses to cope with what he called an unprecedented US-led confrontation. Kim is expected to ramp up weapons tests in 2024 ahead of the US presidential election Many experts say he likely believes his expanded nuclear arsenal would allow him to rest US concessions if former President Donald Trump is re-elected. In a five-day major ruling party meeting last week, Kim said he will launch three more military spy satellites, produce more nuclear materials and develop attack drones this year in what observers say is an attempt to increase his leverage in future diplomacy with the US. In a meeting on Sunday with commanding army officers, Kim said it is urgent to sharpen the treasured sword to safeguard national security and apparent reference to his country's nuclear weapons program. He cited the US and other hostile forces' military confrontation moves according to the official Korean Central News Agency. Kim stressed that our army should deal a deadly blow to thoroughly annihilate them by mobilizing all the toughest means and potentialities without moments' hesitation. If they opt for military confrontation and provocations against North Korea, KCNA said. Experts say small-scale military clashes between North and South Korea could happen this year along their heavily armed border. They say North Korea is also expected to test launch intercontinental ballistic missiles capable of reaching the mainland US and other major new weapons.


NeoPixels are digitally controlled RGB LEDs, available in a variety of form factors from individual pixels to full matrices, and most commonly a flex PCB strip. Color and brightness of each NeoPixel is controlled via a timing-specific single wire data protocol, which can be sent by most microcontroller boards, but timing requirements will pose a challenge for Raspberry Pi and other single board computers. To get an idea of how much current you'll need for basic usage, multiply your number of pixels by 20 mA. If you plan to get wild and drive all pixels at full brightness, multiply by 60 mA instead. NeoPixels powered by 5V require data to be sent at 5V as well, so if you're using a 3V microcontroller, add a level shifter in between for translation. For all things NeoPixel, be sure to check out the excellent NeoPixel Uber guide on the Adafruit learning system.


but at the same time it doesn't give us doesn't tell us whether something stays up or down in in nearly the kind of fine detail that we need to to figure out and just to add on to that point I think it's one of the real challenges that I think we face when we look to international human rights law for like the substantive norms of what should content policies be for example is that there's an awful lot that's regulated under content policies today that would not be under human rights law and I think of nudity and kind of sexual content as a prime example where the vast majority of major you know mainstream general audience platforms have some kind of rule against at least explicit pornography if not nudity in general we all know lots of stories about how tricky that is to enforce and all of the very many reasonable ways that people want to use nudity in their depictions of just their life or advocacy or whatever it might be so I think one of the big questions too is as we've kind of all grown up with the internet over the past 20 25 years there's been a sort of a presumption of less freedom on many platforms than sort of full first amendment protected speech and that people are at the very least really accustomed to that and if you got rid of that and said okay look can't platforms should not restrict anything more than what governments could restrict if they were in the same position that might be a wonderful place to end up as like a first amendment maximalist but it would also mean you'd probably have porn in every comment section and social media platform and and and then what would we do and that's what the thing I don't think the conversation ends there the answer might be then you do a lot of like user side filtering to limit that and like put all of the fine grained restriction of speech in the hands of people themselves and not the platforms that's that's one direction to go but you know we we see a little bit in kind of the use of of privacy control tools on social media platforms people even who want to protect their own privacy and don't like what they understand platforms to be doing still may not use tools to do the fine grained management themselves so I think that kind of that question of we are in a little bit different position with thinking about these platforms and what roles we want them to play then how we've thought about governments and that's where I think a lot of the the challenge comes because it we can't just directly translate all of what we expect from a government onto platforms but there is an awful lot that we can't expect from companies that's helpful mark yeah so um on on the question of the you know can you apply international human rights law to give us a legal solution this I don't I don't think so I think it's not determinant enough to really give a unique answer I still think the principle I laid out of you know consistency of laws and universal legal norms is the right way to look whether countries will get there I don't know I mean that's that's really a matter of their local legal systems and and we'll see how it works out but on the legal question I think that's that's where we have to we have to go I'm not sure there's an easy answer even if you take that position because then what's a universal legal norm right where we found consensus but at least it gives us a way to think about the issue but I do think largely and I'm going out a little bit on the limb here I think the the game is really shifted away from the legal norms to the terms and conditions of companies okay I really think if if if you're looking for ways in which content will be restricted and you just look at what governments do efficiently I think you'll miss the the first amendment issue of our time which is what what are what are companies doing on their own subject to their own perception of the right norms and standards to to restrict content and what kind of redress rights are they giving people and so on and so forth that's I think the major thing to go back to the early odds and the yahu case people forgot how that got resolved it didn't get resolved in the court of law yahu just took the stuff down right they said I'm not taking this legal risk globally I mean why should why should I defend the Nazis you know and when it's giving me all this grief with the French government and so the the the issue wasn't resolved as a matter of developing legal norms but business practice evolved in a way that gave an answer maybe not an answer we like but but an answer that I think is the way these answers are going to be constructed going forward into the future I'm so I was I attended I was thinking about David K's report on content moderation one of his key recommendations was that companies should integrate or sort of adopt international human rights law because it is a global norm and and it is law and 170 countries have ratified it and have said that we support this so like I mean and and his recommendation that companies should align their terms of service more with international human rights law doesn't mean it's going to be perfect but but that that we do have a place to start it's not like we don't have a place to start I I also think that that there could be some kind of I think about the Austria case and I don't understand so and this happens in the Middle East all the time too but there are certain laws in the Middle East in these countries who have ratified the ITCPR and and you know say that they protect freedom of expression and their national laws completely contradict their constitutions right I mean this is you know there's all kinds of conflict of law within legal systems themselves so so couldn't before a court can assert some sort of extraterritorial jurisdiction and I don't know all the procedural stuff but couldn't it there the law the statute that they're using be evaluated for its compliance with international human rights law under their own under their own the obligations that they've set for themselves and you know it it seems like that could be something like what Greg was saying in the about the cloud act in the previous panel that it could also be a way of trying to raise the bar um and and there's that and then there is this idea of that that there are so many you know every the way I think of it is like the law making is being somehow expanded it's not just the purview of the legislators anymore or the courts it's also the soft law of treaties and these different codes of conduct also the terms of service but the but the group that I find missing are the users and and it brings me back to another one of David K suggestions which is to create some kind of councils social media councils he calls them but that are similar to the press councils but if we have multi-stakeholder councils that are operating not in specific jurisdictions but perhaps across jurisdictions that are dealing with certain kinds of uh that are based that are you know trying to evaluate different things with human rights law and other laws in place or maybe there's data protection councils there's got to be some way for for you know this to be more a conversation about justice than about law and I think we're missing somehow the idea of justice for the users we're talking about determining what they should and should not have to to comply with or agree with but they really we really we're all users in here with a different hat on don't have access to the creation of these laws except through representation but but if that if the law the actual law is really only one part of the puzzle now I think we need to be looking for other other openings and other mechanisms by which we can participate in this process and and hold it accountable and and sort of rethink what law with the with you know with the little l I guess looks like in an internet environment I think I read something recently that it's a Howard Zen so you know it's it's an article called the conspiracy of law and he talks about how we can get stuck in the past of how let law look like in the past and I think I think this is why we're having similar conversations to what we're having you know over the past 20 years is because we haven't taken the moment to sort of pause and sit and rethink or reimagine sort of outside the constructs of what we already know about how legal systems work what law on the internet or what rules or what I don't know governance yeah again and not just at the top level but what it can be right and and uh professor Paul Berman who's written uh extensively on jurisdiction has the theory of cosmopolitan or pluralist approach to jurisdiction which which posits that we shouldn't be married to these formal rules which clearly are falling short in this area but think more about communities of users and where uh you know uh these activities are directed to and have that be a basis for establishing when jurisdiction enforcement jurisdiction can be exercised or not uh which is you know looking more broadly at law with a little l than what most international lawyers do before moving on I just want to clarify that my question about potential human rights sources for guidance in this area wasn't limited just to the substantive norms which I think you all addressed pretty accurately and and but as an inspiration for criteria or elements that national authorities can use when making the decision to enforce or not a particular order uh extraterritorially so um human rights also includes a balancing regime when you have conflicts of rights which all these cases implicate and that's where you have to think about what's absolutely necessary that's where you have to think about the proportionality of the measure and its effect and you know look at what what rights are being impacted uh and you know one could invite national authorities to think about the rights of other people as a discretionary but maybe eventually a normative uh right criteria so so I was looking at it more broadly than just the content and um but um and maybe we can have more discussion about that of people oh sure just and I think there's also a lot for companies and platforms to learn from the procedural kind of guarantees in human rights as well right well and this is the kind of the remedy the notice and appeal questions that so many advocates around the world have been talking about for for a very long time that we'd like to see improvements from platforms on essentially the customer service aspect of content hosting and content moderation and I think they have I mean in my in conversations with companies I I do hear this uh human rights change discourse of balance and proportionality and uh come into play and um so yes thank you for highlighting the procedural dimension of it uh and to to mark and to Jessica and to the rest of the panel one final question uh you talked about how uh transparency was key and you referenced it again just now could could you say more about what that looks like how and anyone else could make suggestions too on this notion of what can companies do to be more transparent about how they're being forced to implement global takedown orders and or um uh regulate content online in a way that might go you know across borders and how that looks to folks users on the other side of events as well um so a start is what what uh google and microsoft uh are doing already which is to post these transparency reports okay right which which say here the number of cases where we were asked by by governments to take material down here's the ones that we said yes to um and they've got that for right to be forgotten they've got it for dmca takedowns they've got it for all of the the the takedowns which implicate government so that's a start i i do think their terms and service are public which is good but the criteria that they use to apply those terms and services tend not to be uh and and the reason for that is pretty clear i mean they don't want to give a roadmap to the bad guys to figure out how to go around it so but some some balancing of that needs to be done so that when a decision is made the the people who are adversely affected by it have some sense of what the criteria would be um the financial services industry actually has a model here if you get an an adverse notice of action based on your credit report you've got to get an explanation of that you know something like that that provides the the the person whose material has been removed an understanding of what it was that prompted the removal now can that be done easily when you're dealing with a universe of two billion users no uh and so it's gonna have to be an automated process to be honest that's how credit card companies work too their statement of reasons is not something that a human being writes out in longhand right it's all computerized but i do think something along those lines would be helpful uh and then the last is is some sort of process uh if a if a person feels aggrieved it's there but it's hard to find and you know again it's scale that's creating these issues um the the companies are operating at such enormous scale that that it is very very difficult to provide an easy avenue for remedies and and redress but it has to be done they've done a reasonable job of that unright to be forgotten right because that that tends to be the kind of thing that has to be resolved you know on an individual basis i know there are three million urls but you know they they still have to look at the the the issue and make a judgment to balance the the interest of the public and getting access to the information and the privacy interest of the person who thinks that he's been he's been aggrieved and and there's a process there that that works it's hard to do that for all of the content takedowns that they're involved in but i think that's the direction we have to move in thank you that's that's helpful to clarify the your initial comment anyone else on the panel want to speak to what companies are doing or could do more in this vein emma sure yeah um so and on the the question of kind of more detailed guidelines about um what companies content policies actually are um facebook did this uh earlier this year um publish you know some more a deeper look into how exactly they interpret their own content policies um which i think is really helpful and also point in terms of getting a better sense of how they're thinking about what are pretty big difficult questions like how to apply the same hate speech policy to you know two billion users worldwide um that's never been tried before and uh is very difficult especially with something like hate speech where you know whether something actually counts as hate speech is hugely context dependent um depending on cultural and just individual kind of circumstances um so that you know i think that was a really important move by facebook and hope that a lot of other platforms can do the same sort of thing and see you know does do we end up in this concern about gaming the system and oh now that people really know more about how the company interprets own policy do we see people kind of threading or walking a very fine line um to continue to say harass people on the platform while still saying informal compliance with the policy but as far as other transparency efforts um that we're hoping to see so cdt joined with uh e f f a cl u the open technology institute here new america um and a number of academics on a set of uh recommendations we call the santa clara principles um earlier this year and they're really kind of a reflection of what has become a really common set of recommendations across lots of ngo's and thinkers um in this space for for a number of years really focusing around um numbers notice and appeal where our three big categories numbers focusing particularly on um terms of service enforcement we do have now pretty much an industry best practice around reporting on government demands for access to user data or content removal which is great and i'm glad to see how quickly and widely that spread um but we there's not anywhere close to a consistent or much of any reporting on how companies enforce their own content policies and what that really looks like at scale um it makes all of the public policy discussions we have around these questions really hard because you know if you're talking to a policymaker and they're putting out a plan of action that involves a lot of fine grained individualized determination of content for illegality in germany say um the fact that facebook is getting a million flags a day of content really starts making that kind of individualized determination uh pretty far fetched as an actual part of a functional policy um so getting more of a sense of the the kind of the scale and scope of all of this and as mark was saying so i won't repeat it um better notice to people about why their content is being flagged better information to the people who are doing the flagging about what happened you know if you're reporting abuse on a platform if you're reporting harassment whether of yourself or of somebody else reporting that and then having it go into a black hole and you never know really what happens and maybe the problem isn't resolved is also a deeply unsatisfying circumstance so lots to improve on notice and effective remedy is i think kind of the white whale and all of this what does it really mean to truly meaningfully appeal a content takedown decision that's a very jazz point that yeah mark was on great thank you any other comments there i'm go ahead um so quickly just pulling up on emma's point um facebook did a really good job of responding and mark has also said this to european content uh policies the europeans don't think so but facebook has been working hard to try to comply but uh the issues have largely written risen in other jurisdictions that have not received the same attention from facebook obviously i'm thinking of me and mar where facebook didn't spend a lot of resources doesn't didn't have a huge team of people who spoke the language etc and so facebook is belatedly coming to these kinds of questions and this is a question that jessica raised at the start which is how much of these are these companies responding to what's happening elsewhere in the world on a word jessica before we open it up sure i mean i i just on the transparency issue i think while the transparency reports i mean of course we're happy to have them i think they could be more granular even in their detail about government request specifically mentioning the laws and under which these requests are being made so to help people understand what are the legal justifications and and things like that so certainly of course the data that emma's emma's also mentioned um and i mean i guess in terms of you if you want to really have a strong list probably most people in here are aware but ranking digital rights uh has you know basically wrote written the book on what the kinds of indicators are that we should be looking at for different companies in terms of how they are addressing a lot of these issues um in terms of appeal and and and uh redress and sort of how clear uh policies are and we've been using that at smacks and other other organizations in the global south to to evaluate telecom and and other internet companies so you know another source of information from the global south that can be very useful um and then obviously um more transparency in in um well i i think i'm not gonna i think i'm that one's just another associative sort of bot so i'll just hold on to it okay well uh that leaves i think um some time for questions from the audience uh we have a mic that we want to pass around to make sure that you if you have a question you speak into that mic and please if you can identify yourself um Courtney you want to kick us off i'm Courtney Raj i'm the advocacy director at the committee to protect journalists a couple of things one deeply concerned to hear that judicial rulings should de facto like apply globally i think that's really concerning when you look at cases like turkey or egypt or frankly many parts in the world and i want to ask the panel why are we just taking it as a given that national sovereignty and national nation state laws should apply on the internet the way that they do offline and why can we not envision a whole different paradigm because this is the there it is a potential space to empower those who do not have the power of the state behind them or the power of corporations so it concerns me that in all of these discussions there's no imagination there's no envisioning of something different which was the very outset the internet as a place that is beyond these national laws and i'm sorry if this sounds like i don't know you know a bit like polyannish but given the people that we work with and as just pointed out you know the people in the global south who are de facto getting access to a space that is oftentimes actually allowing greater expressive potential than they have in their countries even if they you know face repercussions for that expression i really want to think about what we could imagine is a different paradigm than just saying hey france germany turkey egypt lebanon whoever should have the right to control content in their little you know url you know their ip addresses in their domains or try to assert their rights globally thanks let's get another couple questions maybe and then we'll open it up i think frank wanted to ask a question i wanted to make precisely a connection with the frank larou thank you for the question i'd like to make a connection with the past panel as well and going back to the issue of universality in the past panel we were talking about executive agreements between states and that's a very worrisome concept because that means that we will generate different standards according to each agreement and yes the ideal is that some of them may be good but others will respond to the needs or the propositions of other states or their own legislation and in this panel again what we're looking at in the terms of service is in many occasions the takedown will depend as was said by the panel more on the policies of the terms of the corporations than on the law but taking narduro's proposition as well in the past the policies should also be based on international human rights standards that's why we have international human rights standards regardless of what country where they are and we're eroding the advancement of world civilization in terms of human rights by generating standards that are lower than those that were already recognized legally at an international level so yes we will rely on the terms of service and implementation but corporation should be based on international law and international human rights standards for those terms of service otherwise we're creating a double standard for citizens of different parts of the world and this also goes for questions of jurisdiction because I mean yes you have courts and courts making decisions but if a court in China makes a decision I'm sure that no one will demand the same implementation so it is more sensitive I like Courtney's comment just now that internet is the great opportunity for universalizing human rights for generating a new practice and a new understanding and new global concept well why don't we do a round of reactions and responses first then we'll take another couple questions who wants that Emma you look like you're trying to take it out seriously no and I really appreciate Frank's comments about kind of are the content policies especially of like world spanning platforms that have billions and billions of users sort of undermining our expectations of what does it mean to really have freedom of expression because these are sort of independently developed sets of policies that aren't explicitly tied to human rights standards and I do definitely worry about that I worry about the sort of what does it what does it condition people to expect as far as what they can expect for clarity of the standards that govern their speech ability to get redress is there an independent arbiter involved in all of this so I share those concerns I also do have concerns the other direction though if the right now I think you'll have to ask the different companies it how much they would describe their standards as informed by human rights law you know to just to this earlier point I think if we're if you're a company looking for a global standard to hitch your content policy to international human rights law is the best one that we've got but there's a lot especially here in the US we talk a lot about the freedom the platforms have to design their own policies that's like they're sort of they're not promising at least here that these reflect the global norms and standards and I worry a little bit that if we start talking about the policies are essentially mirrored to global standards oh except there's some stuff that we would really like to restrict on the platforms that that may have the reverse effect of undermining what we think of as a legitimate restriction on speech in that international human rights framework right so right now the restrictions are you know like public safety the sort of amorphous public order if we start expanding what platform should be able to restrict to include things like nudity or a more a weaker definition of harassment I do sort of worry about that backfilling into governments taking that up as a like look we've all agreed it's actually sometimes really important to for the safety of children limit you know nudity whatever it might be so I I don't know I think it's I'm worried about international human rights standard being undermined from many directions yeah all right yeah I think that last point was was excellent but I I do think to go to go back to the why can't we do things differently that wasn't an ideal it was 20 years ago everyone thought that that was the feature of cyberspace as they as they call it but to be honest what that evolved into was not a regime where local communities of users would set up their own norms right and or maybe global communities of users setting up their own norms what that evolved into are the terms and services the conditions of the large companies that that's the natural evolution of this idea that there should be a separate law for cyberspace right so I think we got to that point I'm not sure we're happy that we got there in that way but I do think it's it's worth notice noticing the connection between the early ideal of a community of users regulating themselves and terms and conditions that are established by by by giant companies on the can we just live up to international human rights law I do think we're beyond that there's so many things that are permitted under international human rights law that that that private companies simply wouldn't allow on their platforms that I think Emma's right that if you try to conflate the two you know the fact that platforms will decide what they want to put on their their platforms for their own reasons you know that have to do with attracting a crowd and making it a nice place for people to visit that you'll you'll wind up weakening the standards of international human laws in ways that we probably don't want to have happen so I think we should keep those separate the the you're gonna have to rely on the content policies of large companies as a way to make sure some of the stuff that we don't want available to large numbers of people isn't there but you don't want to make that a matter of international law I think the two should be kept as separate regimes so let me just give the example of alex jones right on who yeah so who has been quote de-platformed on some of the major internet platforms so I there's a question as to what exactly the international law norm would be with respect to hate speech and so that's an open question but there's also a question as to whether or not this application by particular countries particular just I'm sorry platforms of their hate speech policy is narrower than what the general rule allows right with law allows and so in the United States currently alex jones is allowed to pervade his hateful nonsense this is the kind of you know the same thing that judge gomez said in the french yahoo case you know despite the moral imperative the law permits it in the united states and so I think I am comfortable and this will be something that you know it will be controversial that some platforms decide to de-platform alex jones whereas a platform like gabb says please all white supremacists come jump on our platform because we are you know pro this stuff and so I think you know that's an american perspective I am comfortable with that now that doesn't mean I'm you know I'm comfortable with the legal regime that enables that to happen and so I think that's the the better approach from the legal perspective now frank raised the question of what does this you know can't we use international law or international human rights law in particular to to govern this this question it's not clear to me that international human rights law gives us enough of an answer what so I'll I could turn it back to you frank to say what does it say about gab should it be illegal under international human rights law and so so that would be the so I would yeah so that would be what I would ask and or is it it should is what twitter is let's say you know there was a lot of pressure put on twitter to de-platform and ultimately there's a temporary suspension whether or not it's permanent of alex jones is that a violation of alex jones is human rights right free expression so those are the questions yeah so yeah well I'm certainly not going to talk about with legal under international human rights law because it's not my my expertise but I guess I guess what I want to say is that I I respectfully disagree that that the terms of service that we have today is the result of a natural evolution of the internet from 25 years ago I think there was a lot of there have been a lot of decisions made that are sort of you know the the libertarian sort of direction that the internet should take and that there were a lot of there's a lot of pressure and a lot of advocacy for that particular direction I think there was an uh an editorial uh not that in in the New York Times recently Joe Lapour wrote that was about that specifically in sort of America's fascination with technology and the libertarianism that basically has produced the Silicon Valley companies that we're all contending with today and that we should be thinking a little bit more deeply about that it's not something that just happened because this is an organic evolution there have been forces at play from the very beginning that have led us to this point and and I think also in these conversations we're also taking for granted that we're only talking about these giant international global internet companies and we need to also be thinking about smaller companies mid-sized companies and how do we enable their participation in the creation of policy and law and upholding human rights um you know it's not just you know despite the fact that it kind of is it's not just apple google facebook and twitter and twitter you know as we all know it sort of gets lumped in there and then has never made a profit you know so so you know whatever but that does have a lot of power um I think also this idea about sovereignty that Courtney raised is one that troubles me a lot living in you know in and among a lot of authoritarian regimes is why should we respect their sovereignty um when they're not respecting you know the personal dignity of the people who live under those regimes why can't we challenge that more under our international system why do they get the same standing as any other nation state that does go to the effort of at least trying to present um you know being a democratic country in rule of law and you know one of the things that was stated that you know in sort of the beginning of this discussion not this particular discussion but this extraterritorial jurisdiction discussion is the idea of polity and that that you know it relies on the consent of the governed you know this idea of sovereignty and that certainly does not exist in a lot of these countries so we have to remember that when we're talking about sovereignty especially in this internet sort of age um and and how can we use this as an opportunity to redefine what that actually means since we're not limited by territorial borders um something I recently discovered is sort of this idea this is kind of like um sorry to get really nerdy here but this idea of sort of um like a theory of justice is John Rawls is like this original position of like you we're all sort of uh we don't know who we're going to be or what traits we're going to have and we all get together and we sort of decide what should the legal what should the framework for justice be in our new community and because we don't know if we're going to be rich or poor or black or white or whatever we're all going to make the best decisions for the system as a whole and then he took that and he wrote something else called laws of the people and the last principle in the laws of the people is that and I have it I hope somewhere here so I want to quote it is um there are many different principles and I realize this is taking you know becoming really vague but the last principle is that people's people's and I sort of refer this to this cosmopolitan pluralism that you're talking about these communities right that we're communities and what if we're a community or a people of open culture and but the last principle is like people's have a duty to assist other peoples living under unfavorable conditions that present prevent them from that prevent they're having a just or decent political and social regime and the nice thing about this this is that you know with even within this it doesn't mean everybody has to he talks about liberal people and decent and you can have different standards within that but the nice thing is that is that we're not sort of a race to the bottom of like you know trying to create the lowest common denominator of what is is free expression and what is privacy so I would like to try and push the conversation that direction okay I think we just time from any couple more questions Rebecca and then in the back and I think that'll wrap it up hi I'm Rebecca McKinnon I mean it seems what we're coming down to here is a challenge of politics and representation right so you know who are the internet companies to say we're going to ignore the sovereignty of these nations because who are they representing or then who's kind of making the decision and who are they represent you know and and how do you avoid the cultural imperialism charge without having some sort of polity you know whether it's geographically based or based on some other community or constructive community that is standing behind the decision to ignore national sovereignty and it seems that's what's missing right that that there's no community that is granting legitimacy and consent to an act of ignoring national sovereignty and then the question is you know if if if if there's a sense that that would serve human rights to have that how do how is it possible to achieve and how do you do so and are David K's kind of suggestions around councils and so on one step in that direction or you know I mean that that seems to be the knot that kind of needs to be untied somehow yeah one more question over here address the question that I inappropriately asked the first panel it's about the sometimes what to describe as the tension between privacy and data security and specifically if you can address the international crime prevention act as some folks have voice concerns that giving the FBI which the SAC would do the ability to take down botnets or suspected botnets used by hackers would give them the ability to take down legitimate content all right that's our round of questions once the well Rebecca is arguing for the consent of the network so clearly international rights law has to be the baseline right the companies have to comport themselves according accordingly governments have to accord themselves accordingly and when the governments aren't living up to human rights law companies shouldn't follow their dictates the hard part is that's that's the obvious you know clear statement and that's because it's universal law it's not seen as culturally imperialist because it is universal etc right so it's not it's not kind of colonial or imperial project but the problem is that when these companies try to operate in jurisdictions they find that they have people on the ground etc that make it hard to not obey the dictates because of the you know the risks that they have so it's not only the of course it's money at stake you know they want to operate in jurisdictions where they make money but they also have the difficulty of operating in jurisdictions where they will feel the pressure from you know on local employees and risks vietnam's data localization policy literally requires officially a person on the ground that you know is is thereby therefore able to be kind of dragooned into court and put into the jail etc and so so that's the the difficulty here and so I I the one thing I don't agree with in the comments is the idea of cyberspace should be entirely different I think that that vision you know the johnson and post john perry borla vision the the dawn of the internet age of the web age isn't accurate and it shouldn't be accurate that is you know we have human rights law I think that's that's perfectly normatively plausible and that doesn't mean that we need to so by saying this I'm not saying that we shouldn't ignore local sovereigns that insist on violating human rights law that's a different different a different question I don't think it means that we don't feel an obligation to other jurisdictions that's a distinct question but I think treating cyberspace as a unique jurisdiction that is immune to territorial regulation is is also problematic and it would actually reduce consumer protections dramatically well it's closing statements yeah no just building on that point I think one of because I was thinking a lot about Courtney's call to have like more creativity and think think more think bigger about what could be possible with the internet and I think until we get the technical means for control of the network out of the hands of governments where that's that's always going to be a sticking point right and you know this and I think it's a great reflection of what an amazing audience that we hear that we've got like luminaries in the field who are asking questions of the panel which I really want to just like hear your your ideas on this because I think for me seeing the the tension especially around things like network shutdowns you know the pushing the issue to the brink of if the platform will try to self-govern and set its own terms and you know agree have its community of people decide this is what goes on this platform when a government can say fine then your platform is not accessible to anyone in this country I do think that is a genuine tough choice for different platforms to make do you then give a little bit on what the government is asking you to do as far as specific content regulation or do you say no one in this jurisdiction who can't circumvent the block can have access and that's I don't think there's a one universal right answer in that question I do think it's really tough call well I think we'll close I'll just say that the one perspective missing from the panel is that of government agencies and officers who make these decisions or or promote them and it would be interesting to think about what goes through the mind of you know someone in the French agency who is ordering right Google to take it down around the world the information that they've been asked to have removed or and and what might influence that perspective and I think that's where the role of human rights not necessarily as a binding legal obligation every time but as a source of guidance and inspiration and of developing functional criteria to you know so that on balance the enjoyment of human rights is impinged less with one decision i.e don't take it around don't take it down all over the globe but find a way to limit then then then the contrary position right so well if you'll join me in thanking the panelists for a fascinating discussion I believe lunch is next right between you and lunch so I'm going to be just very very brief and sum up a few thoughts from both panels today so I just first think that something coming out of both with respect to the cross-border data issue as well as the global takedown issue in terms of both privacy and freedom of expression that this idea of a free and open internet that is operating globally but is sort of dependent upon U.S. companies and U.S. law is a status quo that has had benefits for human rights but is ultimately unsustainable and has also sort of you know created a lot of issues around the world and so in in dealing with that two things seem to come out of the the sessions today one is that international human rights law and standards are necessary but perhaps insufficient in terms of how we think about these things how we apply them and how we get laws and policies around the world that will actually respect and promote those rights that we also need to broaden the perspectives that are thinking about these things particularly outside of the United States and Europe and to look to whether it is startups and small media enterprises in many different parts of the world civil society organizations that are working on digital rights and other issues around the world and outside of the United States and Europe as well as trying to figure out how do we get users as a polity engaged in these discussions these are things that we're thinking about at GNI and that I would encourage all of us to do a second thing is continue this process of finding unlikely allies there's many things that whether it's governments companies civil society organizations other stakeholders disagree on when it comes to internet policy but where we find points of agreement we need to push forward you know Jen Daskell and Greg from the first panel disagreed about a great many things and there are many posts on lawfare and just security of them and others going back and forth on the cloud act but now that it's being implemented there are important safeguards that they agree on and we need to sort of move forward and whether on a great many issues we can't hold grudges we need to find ways to work together and push for the right laws and policies third when governments and companies are interacting and as we talked about the importance of how company terms of service you know are sort of the new locus of these debates and governments are trying to influence those we need to have others in the room as well not just because transparency about how these policies are developed and implemented is useful in its own right but if you don't have others in the room you miss important substantive matters we talk about things like when you know video evidence of human rights violations in Syria and elsewhere has been taken down if you have human rights you know sort of professionals who are in the room they can help spot those things and avoid some of those negative consequences and then lastly I think we all need to keep making that affirmative case for human rights and particularly for freedom of expression at a time when we're all too often looking at all of the negative consequences of all types different types of dangerous harmful speech around the world we need to think about the ways that freedom of expression is actually critical and something that we need to base all of our work upon so those are just a few thoughts from today on behalf of the global network initiative thank you you've been a spectacular audience who want to thank OTI for hosting us and ASIL for cosponsoring this event and with that uh lunch is served somewhere I believe outside uh yeah so thank you