It's Thursday night live stream. We now call this for the meanest. We're saving men's lives. Now, when I hear that, it hits me personally. The reason I say that, of course, at one point in my life and I'm sure in a lot of people's lives, you've come to the manosphere, you've come to men's content to get an opinion or a view or get some advice. Do I think saving a man's life is important? Absolutely. In fact, I hold it absolutely dear to my heart. If anybody has on this panel, I'm sure somebody has, if not all of us, has lost a friend due to suicide or some circumstance where it didn't need to happen. Now, as men, it's very, very difficult for us to reach out. It's not in our nature. We don't wanna seem weak, and I totally understand that. I know everyone on this panel in past episodes and past podcasts, we have said, if you need to reach out to somebody, you can reach out to everyone on this panel, no charge.  So when I see savings, saving men's lives, there's a lot of things that go through my mind. I think of the guy that just got blindsided on a divorce or his wife tells him he wants a divorce. He's been blindsided. His wife had cheated on him. I think of a guy who lost his business. I think of a man who's in horrible shape might have some medical issues and say, hey, I wanna get my life right. I wanna get my body right. So it's important to me that if you're a man out there with an issue right now, that you reach out to somebody, whether it's somebody on the panel here or somebody that's close to you. But let me tell you one thing, you're not a weak man if you reach out, okay? I think everybody's been to a point in their life. Probably everybody on this panel, I'm sure of it.  You have anxiety, there's pressure of life. Who do you reach out to? People come to this space for that pretty much that exact purpose to reach out to somebody. I think most guys when they enter the man's fair or men's community enter through trauma. That is your entrance ticket is trauma. So I do wanna say you're not a weak man. You're injured, you have a broken wing, whatever you wanna call it, but it's okay to reach out. And to the guy that you reach out to, he's gonna consider that an honor that you reached out to him. So I think that's important. That's the first thing I wanna talk about. So saving men's lives. I'm gonna first go to Anthony Johnson. Anthony Johnson runs the 21st. Anthony's been doing it for many, many years through his speakers, his conventions, the content that he puts out probably has saved countless lives. So Anthony, why don't you go ahead and tell me your feelings on that. Yeah, appreciate it, Tony. Has Mario coming through a good too? Sounds perfect. Awesome. So I have several thoughts on it. Number one, you mentioned that around the 21 convention. Of course, I have a much longer history in the man's fair or not even much longer. 15 years now, I've been in it since 2005. That's my school. And I've called myself a son of the man's fair. And it's kind of tongue in cheek, son's of liberty kind of thing. But also I've thought about a lot of other millennials that found the man's fair like me at a young age. You know, in the 2000s, I was 17 years old when I found it. A lot of other guys found it around that time too because of the popularity it got coincidentally around that time. Books like The Game, TV shows like The Pickup Artist, these different things. So I think it's actually an entire demographic of millennials that really found the man's fair in some way during that time. And it impacted their life in a way that's irreversible. And I thought I just want to kind of put that out there because that it's part of makes the man's fair so special to me. It's not only the duration that I've been in it and the extreme level of involvement that I've had for a really long time, 15 years, you know. There's not too many guys in the man's fair that have been around longer than that. Some, Alan Roger Curry, Ross Jeffries, Zamperion, different guys. But it's unusual that someone this young found it and then stuck with it for this long and had a really high level of involvement with it. Organization, leadership, these different things. So I want to just provide that for some context. The second point I want to get to is that I think there is a, let me say this, you mentioned the trauma is a kind of key and she pointed to the man's fair, this is true. In most cases, not all. I've met guys that found it for other reasons that were much less traumatic or not traumatic at all. And occasionally you can find a guy who's like good with women who seeks out the man's fair just for even better results with women or improvement in life. Everybody can improve, no one's perfect, right? But I bring that up though, because I think that the guys who are, I don't know the exact terminology statistically for and cognitive bias, fallacies and stuff. But basically I think these severe cases that are drawn to the man's fair, guys who are legitimately suicidal or at least think they're suicidal in some way, right? Or they had a really bad divorce or whatever happens. These are cases that have some pretty serious frequency, right?  But I think I'm much less traumatic. So it's kind of like looking at it from an outlier's perspective, these extreme cases that there is a significant number of, I'm not denying that, finding the man's fair, but that 5% or 10% or 15% chunk of men who find a man's fair, that stuff is so serious that it outweighs really the population that compromises the majority of it. So, and it's such a serious issue, life and death, right?  Meaning they're not suicidal, they just want like validation. I think that's another thing we've got to him second. But I just want to bring that up, that there's a lot of guys who find the man's fair who are not like on the brink of death.   And they find the man's fair, right? They're not suicidal. So I don't want people to really find a man, or look at the man is here from outside perspective and think it's all just like suicidal guys. Every guy just got lost $2 million in divorce rape and lost access to 25 children he had, right?  It's just not reality. The reality is it's actually a lot less severe than that. The third thing I'm gonna say is that I think that, you guys are probably familiar with what I was saying. And I think it's that politicians or tyrants, I'm not, it's not an exact quote, but politicians and tyrants and dictators hide behind children. This is a common theme throughout history, right? Do it for the children, do it for the children.  You're evil. This is a specific logical fallacy. I don't know the name of it, but you guys can look it up and kind of dig around for it. And it's very real. Politicians do this all the time.  You got to do it for the children. You got to do it for the poor, otherwise you're evil. People are like, I don't want to be evil. Fuck, vote for this guy or dude, this policy or whatever.    And they use children and poor people and other victims and stuff or whatever, legitimate or not, to pigeonhole and box people in a corner to manipulate their behavior.  So it's very manipulative and the methodology of it is the same, whether it's genocidal or something local like that. And in the manosphere, what I'm saying is these people that hide behind children, these dictators and tyrants and insane dictators and stuff. In the manosphere, this is a griptor's hide. This is a con artist's hide. They hide behind men who are suicidal, right? Legitimately and in many cases, right? Oh, I'm just saving lives. I froze up. Sorry, guys. Let's see if I can fix that in a second. But I'll continue my rant anyway with that video while that video pauses there. My point is that they're hiding behind the same type of method, the same fallacy that they're employing to control and manipulate masses of men that don't know any better, that are not versed in psychological abuse and manipulation and these kind of persuasion tactics that are being played on hundreds of thousands, if not millions of men in the manosphere and it's sick. And so basically they utilize men who are suicidal or extremely depressed for these extreme cases to justify anything, right? Well, I'm saving lives, right?   I could be any kind of scumbag. I can say any kind of lie. I can have zero standards for how I'm gonna conduct my business and be a man as long as I'm saving lives.   Well, I'm saving lives.  You don't wanna save lives. What's wrong with you?  Don't you care about men?  It's one of the most effective ways to guilt-trip people and manipulate people with their morality in ways they don't understand. And if you don't study philosophy and you don't study psychological abuse and these tactics, it's hard to understand, right? The guy who's a store manager at Best Buy making $85,000 a year, God bless him. He doesn't study this stuff, right? That's not his job. The guy who's your local, you know, I don't know, attorney or contractor, whatever, typically is not gonna understand this stuff. That's not their job. Their job is to do physical hard labor or work a store or a law firm or whatever. So it's specific, these people, this community attracts a lot of fucked up people, is con artists and frauds, and they'll utilize whatever tactics they can, including from politicians and stuff, and it's very effective.  They play on the morality that is dominant in the United States and the West. And that means you have to put everybody's life first and all these victims and all this stuff, right? Children, single moms, whatever, right? Now all the men in the manuscript are gonna die.  I lied, so what? That doesn't matter. I'm saving lives, all right?  Like a little mama's boy hiding under his mom's skirt. That's how they hide.  And ran. Okay, real quick, I'm gonna just respond to Jared Mesa. He said, primal man, I saw your super chat. No, that was actually the primal one. That was not primal man, Jared. Just so you know, I saw that too. So I saw that on the clip, I think, from Blackfield Truth. Just so you know, that was not primal man. That was somebody called the primal one. The primal one needs to go change his name. Hey, Vivian has a good comment here. They use people, they use men as human shields. That's what they're doing, these con artists, man. They're saving lives with human shields by manipulating and lying to people. They're saving lives by stealing from them and scamming them, yeah. Let me ask you a question, Anthony, that you running this convention for so many years. I don't think one time I've ever heard you say I'm saving lives, but I know for a fact your company, 21 Convention, has saved many lives. And let me real, again, I'm gonna break down a little bit what Anthony said because somebody says that their life has been saved. Again, that might mean they've been helped with an addiction, whether it'd be a chemical addiction, alcohol addiction, sexual addiction. I don't know if there's such a thing, but joking. As far as losing weight, again, blindsided. Again, blindsided. So how does it make you feel knowing that the content that you produce and put out has probably, I'm sure, helped a guy take the gun out of his mouth or the noose around his neck? How does that make you feel personally? It's touching. I don't think about it too often, to be honest. I have gotten these kinds of emails and comments and stuff and private messages and even in real life in a couple cases. I don't think too much about it. My focus is much more involved in a focus on the speakers like I've discussed before. So because I'm not just a leader, but like a meta leader, I'm trying to lead leaders and I don't really deal too directly with attendees. I do sometimes, like Frank is an attendee of the convention and other people. I have a number of friends from the convention I made over the years, but by and large, I try to delegate the speakers to deal with attendees, both in ideas and then also in interactions and these things as I try to do something even bigger than all that and try to organize all that together. But I know that it does help men and I'm proud of that and I like that, it's good. But as far as being an entrepreneur and just working on the company itself, I focus much more on truth and the content and the quality of it to a really insane degree. I'm very inspired by men like Steve Jobs and Arthur Jones and I and Rand, all these people. I really care about the quality of what I do and that is what keeps me motivated over time. Because you know, you might get all these people that appreciate your work, right? It's a big blow up in traffic and content and all these, you know, some speech comes out. It helps millions of men or something, it reaches millions. But then the next month, you don't have that. So I don't like to put myself psychologically in a position as an entrepreneur. I think this is why I've made it for 15 years now as an entrepreneur, where I'm dependent on a validation for motivation. That's not a good connection to draw. I'm happy to hear that men are saved by the worker just not even saved from death or anything.  Or got into a relationship or built a family or started a business, started a podcast, wrote a book, whatever the case was, I'm happy to hear that. I just don't allow that to be a primary motivator for what I do. I don't think anyone should do that honestly for the work, it's very dangerous. Because eventually it sets you up for a fall. When that validation dries out, you're all of a sudden, you fall apart because it's a weak foundation. At the same time, I think also I should mention that I don't always believe, so I'm actually skeptical, right? I think we've talked privately Tony about this, but we'll get into maybe more in the show. I think some men who write this stuff on YouTube, especially in public comments, not private emails, but even private emails as possible, they're not telling the truth, they're just bullshitting. It's a dark truth about something like suicide. So let me say this, you mentioned I don't brag about, I don't talk about the suicide stuff. You've noticed that, I appreciate that. And if you notice, most speakers at 21 convention do not by far. Most manuscript content creators do not by far. Some do, a few, but most don't. Because same level headed men respect the seriousness of that, right? Even if a couple percent of them are gonna be fake bullshitters because the internet's a weird place, it just is what it is. They're seeking validation from a content creator they love or admire or something, whatever. The reality is that a lot of the time it is real.  And that's a delicate issue. And bragging about that is insane.     It is not something to brag about. Now does he, and there's reasons for that too. Pat Stubman actually has a great post on this, detailing and breaking down why the Fraudfather saves these guys, so to speak. Basically the lowest rungs of the man's sphere from killing himself and stuff. There's actually a specific reason for this happening. And maybe Pat Stubman and Hop Antonite and discuss that more in depth. But regardless of who's doing what, who's saving lives, what number of this and that, blah, blah, blah, you should not be bragging about it. It's weird, it's beyond weird. It's rude at minimum, it's very rude.  That's not something to just like hedge your bets on and to count on, like I'm saving lives.   It's weird. In my view, it is fundamentally not okay to treat that issue so lightly that you're bragging about it left and right when you're offering people basically dating advice and relationship advice as a primary tool.  That's what people do with personality disorders that don't treat issues seriously. And I have a respect for how serious that issue is, the intensity of it. I love it, man, I love it. Yeah, I'm glad you picked up on the fact that I noticed you don't say that. And I do notice that a lot with content creators. Again, myself, I wanna consider myself at this point. I am a content creator right now but I also consider myself for a long, very long time a content consumer. And I'm going to give everyone who is a consumer a bit of advice. And, well, there's Michael Foster. Michael Foster, I sent it to you via text, I believe. Anthony, can I ask you a question real quick? Yeah, Tony, you got Michael Foster as a son of a link. Frank, go ahead. With all the happenings that have been going on over the last couple of years, has the vision of the 21 convention changed at all? Where do you see this going in the next one, two and five years? Yeah. Yeah, so it's always, I would say I'm always open to updating it and I'm always keeping in mind how I can update it over time. And I would say every year it changes a little bit. So I always have kind of like a year out, two years, five years. COVID was a big screwball for that. That I did not see coming, right?  But I'm always updating it and changing it. The Patriarch, for example, that you went to with your first event, that was a very rapid development. I did not anticipate building a family event. I did realize there was a fatherhood family element in the main event that was growing over time. I didn't really know what to do about it exactly. But then a couple of speakers approached me behind the scenes about doing a special event and more or less it came into the, excuse me, the Patriarch event. Make one the great again, for example, you mentioned the 21 convention, but I don't just do the 21 convention, I do the 22 convention. Another course came from the hat which came from a speaker in 2018. So I'm always updating it over time. I mean, it's a really common that I'll like sit down and think and either keep things the same or update something big and new. 21 summit, for example, in response to 21 summit that happened in 2020 was three events in one. And I plan to do something like that someday, but I was thinking 2024, 2025, like five years out, right?  So I knew I had to cancel the polling event number one and I'd also to cancel the spring events and reschedule them.   And it actually worked really well. So that's an example of me updating on the fly very quickly.  That was actually really intense and it came out really, really good. 21 summit 2020 was the best event we'd ever done by far. By far. It had a patriarch event, the main event and a new women's event, all wrapped into one. But as far, you might be asking more specifically about like ideology and different stuff every time. I'll say the Michael Foster to stop down there, he's a Christian pastor. And I'll tell you right now when I started this convention at 17 years old in 2006, I started building it. I had no idea I'd have one day multiple Christian pastors and reverents speaking at the event. That would have been so far outside my purview at that time. Even like in 2010 or 2015, not even a long ago, I would have been like, what? And they're not even gonna speak just to the main event or the women's event. So we're gonna do a women's event, a fatherhood event and a main event. So these things happen and I'm just adapting to them on the fly. There's that old saying, adapt or die. And as an entrepreneur, this is very real.  Life will throw curveballs at you the size of sledgehammers and like golf or beach balls. And you gotta deal with them. And if you're strong and adaptive and you have good self-esteem and good confidence in yourself, based on success, based on respecting reality, you can kick some serious ass, even with major challenges in front of you. Hope that answers your question. Yes, sir. I wanna welcome Michael Foster. Michael Foster, how are you doing tonight? Good, man. I just got done putting my Titan II squat rack together in my garage. So I can be a little less fat. I gotta come to the 21 convention, fit and fresh and all that stuff, right? Awesome, fit and fresh. Wait, why does that sound familiar? You know, I'm doubting. Anyways, Michael Foster, welcome. I'm glad you're here.  I'd like to know your positive thoughts. That's what we're trying to go over right now is your positive thoughts on the phrase or the quote, saving men's lives. We see that a lot in the manosphere. Let's talk about the positive things when somebody talks about having saved a man's life. Now, earlier we had said that it can mean a lot of different things. It can mean somebody's losing weight. You know, you saved his physical life from obesity or possibly dying of a heart attack. You saved him from financial ruin. So I think that word saving lives can mean a lot of different things. I think the main thing that it means is taking the gun or the noose off a guy's neck. So what positive in the manosphere and in your life as a pastor, saving a man's life, what does that mean to you? Broadly speaking, I think it means men who have grown up in a femme imperative society feel to be masculine is somehow a sin and wrong. And therefore, simply being in a man's corner and saying it's good to be a man, it's good to be masculine and to encourage man in their masculine virtues and traits will help a man not hate himself and resent himself and think that there's something wrong with his nature. We live in a time where masculine nature is treated as if it's toxic, treated as if it's some sort of psychotic problem. And so any man who comes along, I was just talking to a good friend of mine, co-author of mine, and about how all it takes right now is to get in a man's corner and say, hey, no, that's normal. It's okay to want a beautiful woman. It's okay to want to be ambitious. It's okay to be driven. It's okay to want to conquer and have self-control. It's okay not to define your life by niceness, not to define your life by women. If you do that, that's enough to break a lot of men free from the sort of education they've received underneath public schools and just the mainstream media. And you can really change a guy. It doesn't take a lot to save a man's life right now in 2020, 2021.  You know what I mean? And so as a pastor, I believe that on the sixth day that God created man in his image, male and female, he created them. And then at the end of the sixth day, he says, it's good. I think it's good to be a man. That's why we named our podcast, It's Good to Be a Man. There's nothing wrong with masculinity. It's not deficient in any way. And so what I'm trying to do as a pastor is show what biblical masculinity is, masculinity redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ and normalize it and help them see that feminism is a poisonous life destroying lie and help them understand that your violent tendencies. Amen brother, amen. Can I get an amen? Your violent tendencies when pointed in the right direction, your sexual energy when pointed in the right direction, your desire for excellence and greatness when pointed in the right direction is a God honoring thing, right? And you know, I'm finishing writing my book. It's like 40,000 words, it's been a work of love. It's been a work of love. And I wrote a book for men to encourage them. And all I think men need right now is a lot of encouragement. So when you're a father, I'm a father of seven children, eight, if you count one that passed away, but I have four living sons and three daughters. And boys are interesting. Boys need a weird mixture of like put them in their place and then lift them up and encourage them. You gotta balance both, right? And I think a lot of men have grown up in a society where they're just constantly discouraged, constantly pissed on, right? Just constantly. And to have anyone come in their corner makes a difference. So there are those guys that go to forums and copy and paste all the content and create a book. And they're very proud of the books they've written, which is more or less content that they've copied and pasted from elsewhere. But there's no doubt in my mind that that content, if it is positive masculinity, makes a difference. And that's why when you see the monastery right now turning a dark direction, right? That's not a good thing, right? And I don't care if you turn a dark direction underneath the guise of positivity. And that's what guys need to watch for, right? They need to be very vigilant because there's a lot of guys. Say that again, Michael Foster, I love that. Say that again. Well, so I worked at a fraud department for a major corporation in America. My job was to find people who are frauds. My job was to catch them, more or less. And a lot of times a fraud will look at you and tell you exactly what they're about to do, but say they're not about to do it. Yep. Right? That's what frauds do. And you have to be very, very careful to listen to what they're saying and then evaluate it against their actual actions. And so as I've been around in the monastery which is about a, you know, as an active participant it's about two years as a consumer of the media probably about four years, right?  I'm gonna sell you this car, but let me be honest with you. Let me be honest. Right? The moment they say let me be honest, what exactly have you been doing up to this moment? When you're finally honest, right? You know what I mean? Let me be honest with you. Well, you've been dishonest the whole time, right? So you gotta listen. There's a lot of projection. And so what a lot of people will do is say they're against negativity, but even, and then couch it in something that's an attack. And what I see is a lot of people who've grown up in broken families without strong fathers without an ecosystem of biological familial ecosystem around them don't know when they're being played, right? I grew up in a family where sadly, alcoholism and gambling and addiction was a reality. And I realized that people who were hurting with you would tell you that I'm not trying to hurt you. But as they hurt you, right? Like, and so what you gotta look at the ministry is it's Shakespearean. Me doth thank the lady protest much.  I think like this is an issue for you. So you develop your ear and you listen very carefully to not just what person says you're doing, but what a person says you're not doing. And when someone says you're not doing something very, very loud, if you've been around, you should think, you know, I kind of think you're doing the thing you're saying you're not doing. Why in the world are you like saying so hardcore? Like look, like brother, I'm gonna be honest with you. I'm gonna give you a good deal. Like this car, it was worth this much, but I'm gonna give you discount on it. That dude is taking you, right? I'd like to jump in and comment on this, Michael. Before it, yeah. Sorry to interrupt, but I think this will really help out and illustrate your point. A long time ago, a friend of mine told me something I'll never forget and it's not like super hardcore science.  And it's the idea, the concept of suggestion that whenever someone uses the word not, especially strongly or repeatedly or whatever, not, not, not. It's a negation. It's a tool to negate something else, right? Like a used car salesman.    Right this way, man.    It's the repetition and the intensity of the use of the word not, no, all this stuff. The negation, people who are honest with you, they don't do these things. They don't double down, triple down, elevate these negative words, right? If they're honest with you, they're gonna say, hey, right this way, let's go. The car's on sale. This is the price, let's do it. It's straightforward, it's simple and it's positive. It's the negation stuff, negative, negative, negative, right? That they lean on. Look at the fraud father. It's all about saving lives. It's all negativity, negativity, negativity, right? Where's the positivity? Where's the positive masculinity? Where's the, where's the focus on femininity? And I bring this up because I think the larger issue of play is that these men who find a man's sphere, they get played by women. They don't understand manipulation games. Instead of getting played by women, they go to the man's sphere and get played by men.  I'm here to help you, man.  Totally not gonna do that. I'm gonna be honest with you, man.  Hello? So watch out for negations of words, especially way too much of it or strong uses of it. Men who are honest, they're just very straightforward. They're very blunt, ideally. And there's not a lot of trickery and a lot of these word salads of negative stuff. Not, not, not, no, no, no. Totally wouldn't do that to you, man. I would never lie to you, man. So on the negation, on the negation issue, the other thing to watch for is I think it was, I don't know what author picked us up from, but he said the road to hell is paved with adverbs. So adverb is an L-Y word, right? So if I asked my sons, I said, Hudson, have you cleaned your room? Dad, it's mostly clean, right? As a man, you hear mostly clean, which translated into man talk means it ain't clean, right?  So when I listened to someone talking to me as a pastor, my job is to diagnose what's going on with somebody's soul. I take the word of God and I apply it to their soul. So as a pastor, you have to develop the ability to listen very carefully to what people are saying, you know, and I dial in because I don't wanna misrepresent them, but I also don't want to be deceived. And I've learned to dial in to negation, to negatives, and into adverbs. So the more L-Y words are in anything, the more deceptive it is, I promise you. And as I've worked through the manuscript of my book, I've worked really hard to take out negatives, and that's E.B. White, and he wrote a book called Element of Styles, which is the element of styles, which is the number one book on writing. You gotta go back to the first three versions of it because they added general neutral language in the fourth version, I think it was. But Strunk and White, if you get it, I've got my undergrad is in history in English, but Strunk and White says, never write anything in negatives. Now that's a little hard to do, but as a general principle, you listen very careful. Anytime someone's loading up with negatives, the problem with negatives, they're like, think of like multiplication, right? Negative times a negative, right? Equals a positive. There's a lot of like smoke and mirrors. And there's a lot- It's evasive. The use of the word not is evasive, negations are evasive. It is. So like state what you believe, right? Say it, say straight up. What is your precept, man? What are your 10 commandments? What art, what do you believe in? You know, and if everything's negative, then you're like, okay, I know what you don't believe in. Do you believe in the opposite of these negatives? Is that your positive principles? And that's really huge right now, I think, because we are living in a grifter apocalypse, right? We all have grown up without dads. So take me, I'm 41 years old. I had a birthday on March 8th. I turned 41. I'm the father of eight children. I've been married almost 20 years to my high school girlfriend. My notch count in marriage, impressive. Outside of marriage, not very impressive, right? I'm just a, I'm a Christian pastor. I love being married, but I will tell you right now that our generation grew up in a toxic, feministic time. And we all who have woke up to it, I don't care if you're 40 or younger, we all woke up to it. If you're on this podcast, you're listening right now, you're Neo in the matrix, right? You took the red pill, right? That's why it's such a positive metaphor. But as we've taken this red pill, now what we have to decide what we're gonna do are we gonna build something positive or are we just gonna like sit in the ash heap of society? And there's a lot of money to be made in the ash heap of society. I have people constantly offering me, hey man, I'll put you $100 to coach me. The reality is my most valuable resource in my life is my time. And I actually don't wanna coach anybody.  I have to be your pastor. So move to Batavia, Ohio, and I will coach you.  There's a lot of weak men who grew up without dads that were good dads and grew up in a feminist society that are very, very vulnerable. And they are signing up for course, after course, after course, trying to figure out how to be a man. Michael Foster, let me ask you this. We talk about weak men. And when you hear the phrase, everybody hears the phrase weak men. No man wants to be weak. So I'm gonna start with Michael Foster and I'm gonna go right around the panel on this. How difficult is it for a man to reach out for help? Dude, it's so difficult. I've been a weak man.  I have no desire to put on a show, right? I have no desire to put on a show. This is who I am. I was probably 50 pounds overweight when I went to 21 convention. And I thought like, this will be good for me.  I know they are. And they're right to, right? They're right to. Because look, all you gotta do is not eat and lift weights. It's not hard to be in shape, right? But I had it. And I knew they were gonna give me a hard time about it. And I was actually thankful for about it because I just finished putting together my squat rack and my bench press and my garage. But so many of us are so weak and it's okay to ask for help. But if you're gonna be putting on a show, you're gonna have two faces. If you're gonna like, you're never gonna get the help you need. And what we have to be after is results and not show. You wanna be actor? Fine, YouTube is the place for you. You can put on a great show. If you want results, right?  If you wanna have actual like results, you can come to something like 21 or wherever where people are like willing to like, say, hey, I see how you are. Now let me help you take the next steps. And that's been a big push for me. So here's my answer. All right, I wanna go to Frank Pesci. How difficult is it for a man to reach out for help? You know, men don't like to ask for help unless they absolutely really need it because it's almost as if you don't wanna use that Trump card. You don't wanna call in a favor too soon. You want to be able to handle your business with minimal help so that when you really need something under duress, under pressure, then that favor can come in for you. Now I'm the type of person I always like to let myself to help other people, to establish obviously good rapport with my community and with my friends or whatever. But also, you know, I'm not adverse to asking for help. If I need help, I'll ask for it but I won't take advantage of it. And I wanna ask for help or something that I don't need help for. I think men in just by our nature, we are problem solvers, right? Like how often do you hear it? Like women are like, I just want you to listen. And I just wanna give you a solution because I'm not gonna just listen without the desire to produce an outcome to solve this problem. So if you give men a marketplace, right? So like 21 convention, right? For instance, we're talking, we got Anthony here. I've been at 21Con, excellent, awesome event. I encourage you guys to go. 21 is a marketplace. So I don't need to directly ask for help because sometimes I don't even know what I need to ask for help for. But I get to go to a place like that, a marketplace and talk about all different kinds of things with all different kinds of people in a streamlined fashion, where it's like, hey, we're here actually to produce solutions and produce relationships and so on and so forth. And something that I was planning to deal with five years from now, I can deal with it right this moment because I know it's gotta be dealt with and the marketplace is there to help me do that. So men more often than not are going to look for opportunity. They're gonna look for marketplace in order to address issues, get things done, start that business, build that bridge, whatever it is that needs to happen. So I think the answer lies into giving men opportunities for marketplace to come together, to work together, because men kind of like structure, I think, men like, here's some issues, how do we like fix them, instead of just kind of free flowing all the time. So that's my answer to you, Tony, that's my answer. I wanna go to Gene next. Yeah, I think. How difficult is it for a man to reach out for help? I think it's difficult for him to say, hey, man, I need help. But it's easy for him to say, start a conversation with someone he knows. Gene, you're so masculine, how's your name Gene? It's, it comes from my middle name, which is Eugene. Eugene, okay. People better, right? I'm just gonna keep calling you man, is it okay? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, that's his nickname here, man, for sure.  That'll work, yeah, cool, man. So I think people, men reach out for help indirectly, whether it be like calling a friend, a cousin, a family member, someone they know, one of us may reach out, I may reach out to Tony, Tony might not know, I might be looking to vent about something, that I'm not gonna go vent to Tony be your Tony. My woman about, right, or anyone else about. That would be a man's way of reaching out for help in a lot of ways. But I think it's hard for a man to say, for me to be like, hey, Tony, I need you to help me like I'm feeling kind of suicidal right now. I don't think that's the case most times. I think it's more like, hey, what's up man, how's your night going, what's going on? When men reach out for help, if that makes sense. And then I think it's also on the part of us as friends, mentors, whatever you wanna call us to go ahead and pick up on that guy that is reaching out for help. Maybe it's somebody you haven't heard from in a while. Yeah. Why haven't you heard from him? So let's go to Marty, Nutshots next. Marty, how difficult is it for a man to reach out for help? I think it's the opposite, I think it's 50-50. I think just, you know, there's a lot of guys like I did when I joined the Manisphere is a lot of us got hit with divorce and it was very unfair going through the legal systems unfair. And a lot of guys just don't know what to do and they reach it, they go online, they go on these legal websites, AVO for free advice and they go on YouTube. Let's talk on a personal level. That's what I'm saying. It's not, believe it or not, a lot of men are reaching out because they feel so frickin' helpless and that's why these grifters grab them because they are reaching out. It's not like these grifters are coming to them. We're not talking about men going through psychological. Let's talk about the man himself, not about the grifters right now. No, no, that's what we're speaking about. For the men who are struggling, there's two different types of people who joined Manisphere typically are the men who are getting divorce attacked, I don't want to say the R word, or the man who's just going through psychological emotional problems that is afraid to reach out. Those people, it's hard for them to speak out. The ones who are going through the divorce and all those emotions, they're the ones who are more likely to be open about it because it's important, but either way, it's important to let these men know they're not alone. That every guy is going, there's so many men going through it like them. That was your first question you asked Michael first. Men need to know they're not alone. I like that party, I like that a lot the way you say that. I think that's really important that men need to know that they're not alone. They're not, and there's so many legit people trying to help them. And we call soldiers. Soldiers are just not people who fight. Soldiers are people who have the same mindset as us. Let's set examples because they're examples web out. Yeah, I don't know how to, I'm brain fogged today, I guess. But, and to get back to what you were saying earlier about trust me and people say, I'm not lying to you. In New York, we say, let me level with you. Like they haven't been level with you before, but- That's a very Jewish thing to say. Well, you know, I do have some of that in my blood.  And like Anthony's, like Anthony's the president said earlier, you know, there are men that are looking for this and there are men that should be looking for that. And that's where the grifters get them. But I found the most effective thing, especially with the manosphere, is you got to stop looking. You take care of yourself. Like you said earlier, Tony, you got to lose the weight, focus on your life, hang out with your friends, have fun with other men. And then you're going to notice that women are going to notice you back.  Loving yourself and meeting other guys with the same mindset are more important. And I'm not a religious guy.  I can't, I can't. I've never found him and I don't think I will. Oh, you're going to get saved. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I am not touching baptism water. I might actually burn and melt. So just fair warning. I've got, I've got my target set on you, but go on. Suffer and die, Marty. Oh no, I can't. And then, but you know, just not alone. And it doesn't matter who you are, what mistakes you've made. I always believe in people having redemption. I even feel that, you know, I'm a little different from you guys in the panel. I feel even these grifter losers that there's redemption for them. It's there might have to be a lot of Hail Marys and hallelujahs.  But if people are, you know, I always believe that if you pay the price, you can come back. I say we feed them to the sharks and see if the sharks spare them. That's fair. What happens, let's say, let's say that blonde stripper in his niece leaves him and he's like borderline suicidal. I'm not going to turn my back on another man. I'll bring him in and say, this is where you've lost. I'm that guy.  You know, you gotta draw the line somewhere, man. Redemption is not unlimited. I believe redemption too, but it has limits. And if you call it unlimited, I would strongly disagree with that philosophically. If there are no boundaries, if there are no definitions to what redemption is and how far it can stretch, then it's meaningless. You must have current definitions of terms. I agree with you. I agree. Anything with children, you hurt children, I have no zero tolerance, you should be executed. That's my limit. But, you know, I just think at this point with the way the female movement's going, we need every soldier we can get because men are getting buried every day. I think that's one of the main, let me comment on that. I wanna really comment on that. That's one of the main manipulation tactics that's being played right now on men like you, Marty, who are fairly new to the hemisphere. Oh, we all gotta be in it together. The feminists are coming for us. The feminists are coming, the feminists are coming. This is another manipulation tactic to hide behind a fake shield.  This community must get rid of its frauds if it wants to survive in the healthy, positive place. Getting rid of the frauds and the poison and the toxicity and the parasites and the cockroaches is priority number one, absolutely number one.    I don't believe there's any redemption for them.  That's absolutely what the point would be. When people lie to you, yeah. You do, you make a great point that, you know, that is the language. And I do, listen, I had a video today in Gonzo when I went after them, I went after them. They have to be eliminated first. The reason you're saying, the reason, there's a lot of men, it's not just you who believes that, there's a lot of men who believe that right now. That's like the next level after hiding behind the suicidal guys, right? They're preying on what you believe. They're identifying what is in your head and they're preying on it specifically, exploiting weakness. They're trying to identify what large populations of men in a given community, in a given demographic believe, and then they're warping their beliefs in language to pander to you, because that's what you want to hear. You believe that and so do a lot of men. So the language and the communication changes to fit that, like a parasite that's adapting a virus that keeps adapting over time again and again. It has to stop, it has to end. These men are so predatory that they will not stop.   People with personality disorders and empathy disorders typically don't heal.  Treatments on them don't work, they backfire.   They can't do that.    Well, I'm gonna go to Gonzo next. Gonzo, this is a simple question. I wanted to go around the panel so you guys kind of stay with the flow and then we'll get into the other parts I wanna get into. So Gonzo, how difficult is it for a man to reach out for help? Somebody who's hurting.  I mean, like, okay, just this past week, actually, because I was like faced with like this difficult situation because somebody that I know that I actually do work for admitted publicly that they were having trouble. And they were kind of trying to be very subtle about it. And I knew that something was wrong and it was kind of awkward because it's like, you know, you're in a situation where it's like, you know, it's like I'm like, this is like a client. You know, this is very strange. So what ended up happening was, you know, I smoked on it. I asked around and I ended up just reaching out to the gun.  Like, here's my number, just whatever you want to do. And I wasn't sure what the reaction was going to be, but actually he ended up getting back. And I think he was kind of shocked. Like he kind of didn't know what to say, but he expressed that, you know, he really appreciated it. Like, you know, like, I think a lot of guys, they just, you know, like something that I think Michael and some of the other guys have brought up just now is that, you know, men really need encouragement and they don't need a whole lot. And that's something I saw an old clip of Jordan Peterson the other day and the guy, you know, the guy like started crying because he's like, you know, like, you know, there are these men or just people in general and you just tell them like, you just give them a little bit of encouragement and they need so little of it. And the effect of that is just so profound. Like that's how, that's how starved people are for any type of encouragement. And he was saying that, you know, he can tell that there are some people who come to talk to him after he speaks or whatever. And they say things like, you know, they give the impression that maybe they're unsure if they really want to talk about good things that have happened in their life because they start, because, you know, they took that encouragement and they ran with it. And that's just because they're just so used to being beaten down.  It's like, you're bad for being a man. You're bad for, you know, all these things that are natural to being a man. It's terrible. And so as soon as you just give any amount of encouragement at all, you know, that's, it means a lot. It means a lot to who needs it. So. Yeah. With rejections from women and you've got a whole mess. I'm really glad you said that, Gonzo, because as men, I think we need to look around at our friends, our colleagues. And guys, I'm sure everybody on this panel has seen somebody going through something. Okay. You know, how do you approach that guy? And what I want to tell everybody who's watching is don't be afraid to approach that guy who you know is going through something. I have, I've had this happen to me recently. I'll say in the past two to three months, I knew somebody was going through stuff I could tell.  I reached out to him and offered him everything I could offer him, talk to him. I think you'll be surprised as a man when you reach out to another man that you know is going through some stuff. Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to reach out to him. Don't be afraid to talk to him. You could be wrong, but chances are, the reality is you could save his life. I mean, that's reality. You could save this guy's life. So I think it's our duty as men to pick up on the things that other men are rejecting to us. Somebody's got a dog bark. Not me. Oh, man. That these other men are like, they're giving us hints, they're giving us clues. Again, for me as a man, it's very difficult for me to reach out to anybody when it comes to an issue that I have in my life. Personal, relationship-wise, it's very difficult for me to reach out to anybody. So if you pick up on these clues, these hints that somebody's giving you, I think it's very masculine to talk to that guy. I'm thinking of my son, Athanasius. He's my second born. So I've got a boy that's about to turn 15 and Athens about turn 13. And Athens is like on the spectrum, you know what I mean? Like, yay, somewhere in that. But we didn't let him get diagnosed because we don't want that to haunt him. He's a smart kid and he just needs a little extra attention. But at times he can interact with the family in ways that are awkward. And one night I came up to him and I said, hey, hey son, I love you. And he said, I know dad. And I said, no, no, I don't think you do. I love you how you are right now. You don't have to change. I love you as you are right now. And he said, I know dad. And I said, no son, I love you. And he said, I know dad. He started crying, right? And I hugged him. You know, and Athanasius is my son, Athan. He's tough. He's got, he's really good with hammers. He's very gifted when it comes to like building things. This very evening was helping me build some stuff. He's, he can take a lot of punishment. I watched him get his junior black belt. He would get punched in the face 30 times just to land one haymaker, knock the kid out. And he was like, did you see me knock that kid out? I was like, well, I saw you get punched in the face 30 times. He was like, but not to get out, right? I was like, well, you did not come out, but son, come on. Come on, that's a lot of damage to take. But so I got this boy who's super masculine, but he still needs my approval, right? He still needs to know I love him. He still needs to know like, you're doing a good job, boy. You're doing a good job, son. And we've grown up in a society without men validating us. So we, we look for women to validate us.  And, but at least there's male conquests involved in that, male excellence, right? Men have to like develop themselves to get there. I can defend the PUA's, if you wanna go there. You can defend it, but before I go there real quick, I'll just say that a feminine validation is not good. What we need is masculine validation, what is what I care about most. I don't wanna get lost in the particular branches of the manuscript, but we need dads that are telling us, like, hey, oh, hey son, you're doing a good job. And that's what I told my son this very day. And I think this would be neat. Anyway, go on. I have a lot of thoughts to share on these issues. Now I'm the last to go on this one. I'm really excited. Let's see if I can keep this fairly brief. Now the PUA thing we can get into later a little bit. I would just say through briefly comments on that, the Pickup Artist community at a very basic level is really to help men develop better social dating skills, relationship skills, excuse me. What they do with it, whether it's slaying or banging a thousand women or building a family is different. And having been involved heavily with it back in even the 2000s when it was much younger, that's only what the focus was. How do I get better at talking to women, approaching women, getting phone numbers, going on dates, these things. The consequences or the extensions of that were much more specific to each guy. And that actually gets much more than into blue pill, red pill, purple pill, in a very legitimate sense, like what kind of beliefs are actually guiding him on how to utilize these tools. Some guys really did just want to build families for better or for worse. A lot of cases probably for the better, but some cases might have been co-dependency things. Who knows, right? It's complicated, there's a lot of issues with it. But at a basic level, it's social dating and sexual skills, things like that. And a lot of these guys were not Christian. They were just whatever, whatever the case was like myself. But moving on from that, one thing I thought about that I just tweeted actually live in the show, I thought was really important is that the purpose of the man is fear is not to save lives. This is false. This is definitively false. And men who claim that as a shield, a fake shield, a human shield, it's the mark of a con artist. They're trying to pigeonhole the entire purpose of the community to pulling back men from the brink of suicide. This miraculous Jesus-like move, right? I'm pulling them back from the brink of suicide. I'm saving lives.   Is that what you're saying? They're a bright light in a dark world. That's what somebody had said. Yeah, it's all, it's all a scam. I mean, they're basically, they're hyper focused on people who are really damaged that almost certainly belong in actual therapy with a licensed like therapist, ecologist, whatever, even a pastor, anybody, anybody outside the man is fear of some YouTuber. Like this is, it's okay that this happens organically. Like that's gonna, I think the impossible to stop. It just is what it is. But it's like, this is not their job. Like they needed to go into someone on a suicide hotline or something of actual suicidal. But anyway, the larger point is that the purpose of the manuscript is not to save lives, save men's lives, bullshit. That's pigeonholing the entire purpose of the community that's over 25 years old, something very narrow that they can hide behind, right?  The purpose of the manuscript is not even to help men.  I've defined it in my definition. I think most men would lean somewhere in this direction. They might have a disagreement on the specifics of it. I've defined the purpose of the man is fear as a positive future for men, boys and fathers, which is much broader, more comprehensive and much deeper than something like saving lives or even helping men. What about if we were gonna make positive future for men, boys and fathers, we need great women too, right? Make women great again.  Oh, I got in shape. I got in shape and I made money on Bitcoin and America falls.  Like, what is the point of this?  So it's a positive future for men, boys and fathers. I think it's very natural and organic for men to wanna bring women up along with that while being cognizant or aware of not getting trapped in some giant white knight, Admiral Sabah or something like that. Women need help too and they need masculine leadership to do that.     It's gotta stop. It's super toxic and evil. So anyway, the purpose of the mannisphere is much broader and much deeper than saving lives or even something like helping men. No, it also involves boys and fathers and it can also include women too, right? Now, I also wanted to mention that I think it's someone in the comments is saying that Johnson really hates those guys, which is true. I'm not bashful being hating people in select context, right? It's a strong word about he's it sparingly.     This isn't a pizza shop or a car dealership, right?  It's fraud, but they're not pretending, you know, they're not, it's not a direct line. It's much simpler, right? It's nowhere near the level of hypocrisy.   And that's what these men do, right?    Now, the next point. Go ahead. Well, I'm just gonna point out what you just said because I made this comparison to you.  They're gonna grab onto your hand and say, buddy, I want to help you.  It's taking your wallet, it's fleecing you.  It's sick.   But on the other hand, you're gonna have to pay me. No issue with somebody making money, quality content and value for dollars, no issues at all. But I do have an issue, again, with somebody grabbing your hand and saying, I'm your buddy, I'm here for you.  Uh-oh, she's going to meet Chad. Uh-oh. First of all, as men, guys, you know what's right and what's wrong. You know the way a woman is speaking with her body language. You know it. It's inherent in us. Don't say it's not. Let me continue on, so what you're getting at, Tony. What you're referring to, how I was taking it, you clarified a little more, but why I took from that or where I led my mind on this. These men that are ripping, these fraudsters that are ripping men off while pretending to help them, you mentioned the hand in the pocket as you're lifting out of a chute hole, you're correct, it's an algae. They're not making technical mistakes because aren't errors, right? These are moral mistakes, very deep, and it's sick.  The guy's a scumbag, they're slime balls, right? Doing this. But it's nowhere near the depth and depravity of hurting men while pretending to help them.  Not kind of, does he know what this pill is gonna do he's kind of like winging it? You know, it's kind of being like a very loosey-goosey with something or kind of a slime ball.   And that's what I have no tolerance for. These men can burn in health.    I'm gonna make sure of it personally. Well, there's a recent podcast that I had watched. It was a short one. We'll just say his last name starts with a P and the last two letters end with P, P, I believe. So I watched the podcast. It was a short little video. And I actually listened to this guy say, we're saving lives, that's all I'm about.  So it doesn't really matter basically what this guy was saying.  It's okay.  That I don't get. I have no regret for somebody that says that.  Just so you know, in the grand scheme of YouTube, you are absolutely nothing. Let's get real. Talk to me when you have 5 million, 2 million. Talk to me when you have a million. Talk to me when you have 20 million. I got two more points, by the way. I want to get to real quick. I try to finish up. My third point is that we talked about men who are asking for help. That was the original point of this kind of go around here. And we're talking about how they're weak, right? They're weak men, this and that. Well, it's not even so much that they're weak. They might not even really be weak in a generalized sense. What they are is in pain. They're injured.   You're in pain and physically disabled at that point in some temporary capacity, hopefully. So there's a difference there. And I think it's more accurate to state pain, not weakness, because pain is what they push on. It's the button they push. This is how marketers, internet marketers that are slime balls, they figure out ways to do this with sales pages and video sales letters and all this crap, right? They push pain buttons. They find them.  We're saving lives. These are pain buttons that men push.  It's like a BPD chick getting in your head, learning about what you value, how you think. What are your childhood issues?  How did your dad treat you?  Expert manipulators, BPD chicks, throw these con artists men.  The third, the fourth thing I wanted to say is that if a man can manipulate you, a woman can't use you. So these guys, the reason they have so many problems of women, well, number one, they're getting played by men on YouTube, on the internet and Reddit and Twitter or whatever.  The man on YouTube doesn't even have a vagina or a pair of tits, right?  What do you think a girl's gonna do once they manipulate you? Are you kidding me? Anthony, this is gonna bring me to one of my talking points I have written down here. In the hemisphere, we hear the word simp. Don't simp for a woman. Don't simp for a woman. I go in any chat on a lot of these content creators. So which is worse, guys? You're simping for a woman or you're simping for a man.  To me, it's worse to simp for that man than it is to simp for a woman. Which is worse? Again, simp, we hear that all the time.  The same guy is the same guy in that chat throwing that $100 super chat. He's simping for that content creator to get that content creators validation, nine out of 10 times. So his comment will be up on the screen. Not only does it give the, we'll say the super chatter validation, but now the content creator is getting this validation. So it's almost like a relationship that is just, it's like a super toxic relationship. It's really what it is. Nobody's leaving this relationship and it only gets worse and worse and worse. Well, Tony, I said that in my earlier video. I don't understand super chats. It blows my mind, especially in the manosphere. I get it on Twitch when these loser guys wanna talk to these hot girls eating cereal and playing video games, but it doesn't make sense with these manosphere men and to accept it and to think, oh, we're super chat. Yeah, I'll disagree with you there. I think a lot of times the super chat is a, it's a show of appreciation. It's not always a, cause I'll have super chats real soon. So I'm not gonna discourage anybody if they appreciate our show. What's financially benefiting from these in the nerd term? Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. No, a lot of times it is a show of appreciation. But why doesn't it be public? But why does it have to be public? Somebody can super chat without saying a damn thing. That's different. I'll accept that. I will accept that. I can say it too. Or say, I appreciate you, man. There's nothing wrong with that. So let me back up Tony on this a bit and add some clarity to it. I've been doing this for a lot longer. So we get donations to 21 convention, 21 studio sometimes, and they're anonymous or they're private. Like I don't share them obviously the details. And there's through links that we have through donation things. They're not on YouTube. We get some super chats too, but it's not really a live stream channel. So that's not as much of a thing. But I think where, and I grew Tony that these tips in super chats, in many cases are just genuine ways to support a creator that you actually support. And there's not a lot of fuckery and weird ship co-dependency stuff to latch on to them. You just, someone send you 10 bucks because they like your show and they want to see more of it. And it takes time and money to produce these things, right? I think where it goes off the rails are the big ones. People trying to show off how much money they got or get validation and get the hearts from the guy and should like the guy, right?  That's where you have to watch actions, ignore what they say, right? Ignore what they say, watch what they do. These super chats that are big is people showing off, they're insecure and they want validation. I would say 80% of the time. So when it's big, that's when it gets weird. It's like, man, you're not just showing 20, throwing 20 bucks at the show.  That's what happens. When someone drops a $300 super chat, that creator identifies that guy.  They're called whales in the Twitch community and the gaming community, I think they call them whales.  It's insane. These pay to play kind of games. They're the whales. That's actually what the business cares about.  It's a guy dropping 800 bucks a year on a video game that they want money out of. And they basically prey on them. That's the target to keep the business going whether you like it or not. And that's where I think of the mandatory, the problem start, these massive super chats. It's like, man, that's weird. What are you doing that for, you know throwing these massive super chats?  No family to support, no business to invest in, no cryptocurrency to play with. You don't have some nice thing you want to buy for yourself or build or construct. Like what is going on that you're dropping these massive super chats? That's where it gets fishy and rant. But I also want to make one more thing that we didn't mention. I just wanted to put it out there. We talk about people being genuine in content. I like transparency. I don't care if the guy's asking for $800 or $8 or even nothing. If a guy's giving advice, well, it has to be monetary. If a guy's giving advice and making money on it, he needs to be genuine. He needs to, he can't be a guy who's repeating out of a book and not living that lifestyle. Who's not honest and genuine. That's my bigger problem.   Yeah, I think there's a fine line between transparency. I think that transparency is a good thing. I think transparency and authenticity kind of align. I think there's certain transparencies that nobody needs to give. Like I'm not gonna give you my address right now. Sorry, ain't gonna happen. I'm not gonna divulge my ex-girlfriend's name or personal things about her, okay? So I think there's a level of transparency that's important. I think authenticity shines through when somebody speaks. I think it shines through in your personality. It shows through in your, just in the way that you present yourself. I think that's really important. But transparency, I think sometimes can be a bad thing.  Hold up.  I don't need to bring up past mistakes to validate myself to somebody else. And that's one thing that I agree on. I've learned from a mistake. Do I need to keep repeating that to be transparent? Hell no, I've created a new person, a better person. So I think there's a difference between transparency and being authentic. Well, authentic can be fake. There's these psychopaths, psychopaths, narcissists that can fake it. Think about transparencies. If you're preaching, don't get married, date nines and tens, then you need to show your receipts that you're following what you say. That I agree with, yeah. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying you should show your address. I'm saying if you're gonna say to someone, you shouldn't move in with what we shouldn't cohabitate, you shouldn't date single moms, then you should be able to tell people I'm not married, I'm not adopting someone's niece. My ex-girlfriend's older than me and she has a stripper name because her real name is boring. That's what I'm trying to point out. Is that when it's relevant to what you're saying, you need to be honest about these facts. Okay, point taken. I get it, I get it. I find that, yeah, no, that's a great point. I get that. Because if Rola was honest about the fraud father was honest about his marriage and her age, it would change a lot of people's perception. That's my point because he's not transparent. He sounds genuine.  He's a narcissist. He's everything. And he sounds genuine or authentic, but he's far from transparent. And that's his weakness is when people expose the truth. That's what scares him the most. I want to hear from Foster and Finn, man. What's going on over there? Yeah, let's hear from Mr. Finn. You've been sitting there for a while. We're talking about saving men's lives. We tried to stay with the positive, but we quickly, but I understand that. I truly understand that looking at the state of the manosphere right now, because, again, personally, I love this space. I respect it. I respect the men that enter it through a trauma. So when we're saying, or someone is saying, saving men's lives, what's the positive spin you can put on that, Mr. Finn? Well, if a man reaches out, a man should help. Speaking from experience, and I've had hard times, been a homeless couple of times, and it was almost impossible for me to reach out, only because I don't think it was a pride thing. Part of it, I think it was the way I was raised. My father, he, we only have men in my family, no sisters, no, now the girls are popping up as far as my brothers and I were having daughters, but the way my father raised us, raised me, was to be kind of resilient and independent and not to seek, not to seek, I don't wanna say favors, but advantages or not to seek out from others too much. And for the most part, I believe it was from the system, not from close nits or people in your lives, but mainly from the system. And so growing up, and even in my early 20s and stuff, when I did reach out, nothing ever came out of it. So I kind of was on my own and I have learned to reach out at times when I need it, but it's rare in far and few between.  But I know how hard it can be and I know how lonely it can be sometimes. And I have on occasion noticed someone who looks like they're in need, but maybe is too prideful to ask for help. And I've reached out and they were thankful and actually said, yeah, I could use a hand. And it's amazing, because it made me feel good to help. Like it made me feel good that I was able to put myself in a position in my life where I had the conditions where I was able to give somebody a hand, help somebody with a job, maybe help somebody, I think a friend of mine one time when I asked him, because I just, you can get that vibe sometimes, you know? Especially if you know the person. And he almost, he couldn't pay, I think it was like his electric bill or something and he was all worried. And I took care of it. And he was like, oh, I promise I'll get it back to you. I was like, you know, don't worry about it. I mean, because whenever I've helped someone, because I don't like to do it too much financially because sometimes people, they'll take advantage of it.   No, it's just, it's something that I've learned in life personally. So there's a huge attack these last few decades and it's just getting harder on men in this world. I love Tony Johnson's hats. I love that 100% toxic, that's just awesome stuff. Because, yeah, because it's great. And I love just how you carry it and wear it with pride. I do it in my posture and my demeanor and how I speak. Being a teacher out here in Brazil, I'm pretty outspoken. I have learned to kind of keep my opinion to myself unless I'm asked, but I'm not shy from sharing it. And I've had myself in a few occasions because the whole, not the feminism and LGBTQXYZ, just it's so full force and out here in Brazil, hardcore. I mean, I could get fined or arrested for speaking against it out here. Yeah, you got signs everywhere. You cannot, no discrimination. I think I mentioned this before, no discrimination against sexual preference or whatever. And I've made comments before like, oh, but that's okay to have discrimination against handicapped.  Well, let's get back to the subject though. Yeah, sorry, sorry, yeah. All right, saying in a man's life. So, but yeah, but- In a man's life. But, so Savin, we have to be, those of us who are in position to do so should be willing and able to do so when the opportunity arises. And if someone doesn't ask, and if you can see it, like if you can identify maybe someone close to you, ask them and don't ask them if they need help. Ask them, hey, is everything going on? Or I mean, is everything all right? Is everything okay with you? You know, let's go have a coffee. And maybe they just need someone to reach out to just even talk to because sometimes I think men, maybe it's pride, ego, but I think just it's hard to even get it out what they're dealing with. I think what you've done, Tony, with your Thursday nights and Saturday nights is a really good thing to give an opportunity for some, for people to come and talk and get it out. Cause I don't think it's easy for many people to do. So for us men who can and are in a position to help, I think it should be a duty to do so, especially if you want to help, then help. It's as simple as that. Okay, and rant.  You know, we're talking about men reaching out, asking for help and how it's difficult and all that. And I agree, there's some, and this is not the first time this has been discussed in history, obviously. I'm sure we're the 10 millionth times we've discussed this since the dawn of our species. But my point is, I think the reason, one of the core reasons men have a tough time reaching out for help is that it indicates, and you have to admit to yourself, you're lacking some element or virtue of masculinity to deal with a particular challenge. It means you're lacking the competence to tackle a problem successfully.  So you have to admit that to yourself and ask another man or group of men for help. This is basic, it's not bad to ask for help, but it means you have to have the humility to say, I'm not so super masculine or super competent or super courageous or super strong to deal with something. But you have to admit that to yourself to ask the question.  So if you're honest with yourself, it means I'm not strong enough or just like Jack Dunham talks about, right? Strength, courage, mastery, and honor. It means you lack one or multiple of those enough to actually solve something and you wanna do it. So you need help, you have to ask for help. That could be pulling back and bring the suicide or moving a sofa up your house or something like that. And then, Rhett, I love your Michael Foster, I was just saying by the way. Yeah, go ahead, Michael Foster. Remind me the question. I think we went around the whole panel already with the question. I think everybody kind of branched out a little bit, but I'll tell you what I'm gonna do now is we're gonna switch it. Even though we've had some, I don't wanna say now, I'm not gonna say negative feedback, but I think we've had, again, this is reality check Thursday night. I think we're all getting a reality check. So the reality check I wanna ask you for the night, Michael Foster, is we see a lot of, we see a lot of, God, how do I word this? A lot of content creators saying, I'm doing the right thing, I'm doing it for the man. I'm doing it to save lives. I'm doing it to be that bright light in a dark, dark world. I wanna make families better. I'm gonna get you physically fit. It really doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how I get you there or who I get you there through. I'm gonna do it no matter what. And by the way, here's $1,000 to go ahead and do that. Yep, yep, there's a lot of that out here. I guess, so I've been offered a lot of money to make my little side project. It's good to be a man into a full-time gig. And I haven't on purpose because I have a really good day job, you know, I work in business development for a very important company. But the bigger reason was is that the idea of being paid to tell men how to be men seemed disingenuous to me, right? Right, it seemed like what as a pastor, I saw a lot of senior pastors and other full-time staff just lay around and read books. And there is a reading books, it takes the discipline and writing out lines. I'm not saying there's an effort involved there. It's not the same effort as someone like me where anyone that works a nine to five, eight to five sort of job is involved in.  This is the home they live in. This is the girl they're married to, the girl they date, whatever. And then you come to find like, well, the home they live in is not very impressive. And the girl that they're married to or dates, you know, not what they presented it at.  I remember I grew up in a biracial community and I remember one of my black friends was like, hey, check out that hot chick over there. And I was like, is it behind the fat chick? And he was like, and he was like, nah, man. And he liked those, he called them childbearing hips, right? These like gigantic hips. And to me as a white boy grew up in the 90s, I was like, nah, you know, like that's not my speed. That's not my speed.  And as a pastor, one of my big goals is to bring people into my home and have dinner with me and my wife and see me and my kids and see me interact with my kids. And my kids aren't perfect. I've got all sorts of problems with my kids and my marriage isn't perfect. I have a really solid marriage, very happy, but it's not perfect in the last few years to grow. And, but the thing is with Instagram and YouTube and social media, you're able to project an image that is very different from your day to day, right? And I think my problem, and it really does amaze me because I'm a child of the 80s and I'm starting to learn people just a few years younger than me have a very difficult time discerning reality from fiction, right? And so when I watch something on YouTube, I think, man, that's BS, that's not real, you know? But some of these people, they don't know any better.  Like their mind's blown by that. I'm like, I'm not from a Christian family. What did you imagine? And they imagine I grew up like in this perfect Christian family or something. I'm like, no, I'm not. And it's amazing to me what people project onto you, right? They want a hero. They want someone perfect. They want someone without flaws. They want someone that nails it. And when, and if you're willing to play that role for them, they're willing to pay money to get access to your course or to your premium content or whatever it is.   Like, I never pretended to have it all figured out, man. What are you doing? And I remember this young man coming to my house one day telling me he was really mad at me. I had shown like a flight of the Concorde scene. This is way back in the day.  I can't remember what scene it was. I think it was the scene where he's singing about how this girl was the hottest woman in the room if she was a part-time model or something. It's like a really funny scene. And he thought it was very derogatory towards women. And I was like, well, it's just a bunch of us guys watching it, man. And so he comes to my door like weeks later telling me how he's mad at me. And I realized that he had built me up as this like perfect person who could never do any wrong. And these guys out there in the Manisphere who are presenting themselves as Moses leading them into a new promised land who presenting themself as this perfect man, they're gonna regret it because any of us that are like dialed down into the reality of life know our shortcomings, right? We're working very hard to overcome them and working very hard, but a lot of folks out there in the Manisphere and just in social media are projecting this idea of complete mastery. And those of us who know these people are like, what?  Like that, I know you, that's not you, right? But these folks are eating this content up. And that's why these guys are grifters. You know what I mean? Like, you can pay me to coach you, but I make it really hard. I don't really wanna coach anybody. I have no desire. I'd rather you join my church or just leave me alone. Because... This is awesome.  You don't know me. I don't know... What's the center on my goal? Can we get an amen for him? Amen. I don't know how to help people. I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know you. You don't know me. Like, who are we pretending? You know, I don't need your money. I make six figures every year on my day job. I don't need any of y'all. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not interested in... I'm not in this game for the money.  And along in my life, men loved me and spoke truth to me and encouraged me. And I wanna pay that forward and I wanna help other men, right? And my time is valuable. I don't mind charging people for my time, but it's not a main motivation for me.  You know, I know you're not tough. I know like maybe you slept with more skanks than I have, but so what? I'm in a happy marriage. Like, you know, I watch these guys in the man's sphere and I'm not really that impressed. Every once while I am, there's some people that are pretty impressive. I think that Bulldog Mindset guy, I think that dude's impressive. You know what I mean? Like, I met him in person. There's people I see, I'm like, this guy's legit. I respect that, you know, but most of it is just projection and frottery. And I think that's the thing like, we have a lot of young men who grew up who can't tell the difference between show and reality. And there is a certain responsibility that falls to those of us who can tell the difference and say, you know, like, you know, like that dude's really good at like regurgitating things he read on like a forum years ago, but in terms of like actual mastery, like, you know, like look at his life. Look at his life, right? You know what I mean? Like what you want, here's your ultimate receipt. Here's your ultimate receipts. It's not screenshots. It's your life, right? What's your marriage like? What are your kids like? What's your health like? What's your vocation like? That's your receipts. Screw the screenshots, right? Screw the, gotcha. You want to know who's for real? Show me your wife. Show me your kids, right?  I've destroyed all of you. I've got seven kids, right? I am the future. Like I am raising up the next. I will, you know what I mean? Like show me your receipts, right? Like your notch count doesn't mean anything. Like what's your legacy? What are you paying forward? What are you doing? And that's, that's the reality. Like men are builders. We build things. That's what we do. We take down enemies.  Like that's what I want to say for men. What are you building?  I'm with you, man. I'm with you. Like I sympathize. It's an unjust system. But what are you building? What do you have to show for it, right? All you have to show is your trauma. You want to talk about your trauma all the time. That's what you have to show for your life. That's your identity, is your trauma. You know, like what are you doing in this world? And that's, I think that's what I'm looking for in men. And even men that I disagree with that have different worldviews to me that don't believe in Christianity as I do. If they're actually building something positive, building something up, it's hard not to respect those men, right? You like, you say like, well, at least you've overcome. You're doing something. You know, we might differ on this or that, but at least you're making something. And that's what I would say to anyone in the monastery right now. Like, what have you built? What have you accomplished? What sort of positive thing are you adding to the world?   But wait, Michael Foster, I've got a beard and I'm smoking a pipe. That means you're wise. That means you're wise. And he's got the glasses on too. Yeah, I know I've got glasses. And he's got a chorus for $1,400. Can't hear you, Tony. Dream Johnson, can't hear you, man. Can't hear you. Yeah, we lost, Anthony. I can't hear you, Anthony. But I want to add with what Michael Foster said, there's a lot of truth to that. I think there's too many people, men, women alike, but it's more, it's shameful, I think in my opinion, when it's men who seek pity, you know, and they make their trauma, their identity. That personally, that kind of disgusts me and I don't even like to associate with that.      Now, if you're a friend of mine, you're having a hard time and you just don't want to share it, I ask you, you know, I said, hey, what's going on? That's different.  I think I got a misinterpretation when people look at me like I got a perfect life.   So- I like that because I remember when I had first met Primal Man, man, he had quoted me on his Instagram. And it was something I said on the show and I'll never forget this because it's one of the first times I've been quoted. Do you remember what it was, man? Yeah, you said sometimes just gotta let things die. Yeah. You gotta let them go. Living off your trauma, it's not a good way to live. Take the lesson, man. Take the L, move on. You know? It's not always a loss. Turn the negative into a positive.  It's not a sales pitch. Let me bring Anthony back on here. It's not a loss if you've learned something from it. I know. We gotta learn from those things and move on, exactly.  I'll say the guy who's gone through a divorce and you have a kid, you know, you have a reminder every day of that divorce. You have a reminder every day. But how about turning it into something positive? Say, look at the life that I brought into this world.  How about, I'm gonna take care of this life. I'm gonna give this kid the best dad he's ever had. You know, stop going backwards, go forwards, move forward. Let things go. I have a great ability to block things out, let things just disappear. We just saw some receipts on screen. Did y'all see that? A lot of receipts by Michael Faust. It's not about to go up. Yeah, so let's, you know, guys, when you, you know, move across things, like I said, I know it was kind of cool for me to be quoted because it was something I believe in my heart, you know? I have a saying on my gab and my Twitter and it says, you know, no one will hold space in my head. I will nothing you. And what that means is you're not gonna, you're not gonna control me. You're not gonna do it. You know, do I care about people? Absolutely. Do I care if I hurt someone without a doubt? Will I wanna make amends with that person? Yes. Will I continue to ask myself questions and answer them? Probably, but yeah.  Such a bad thing. I think we- I wanna bring you back on, when you're done with what Faust said. Yeah, so, no, I'm done. Go ahead, go for it. Okay. So sorry, I lost track of the conversation too and I was out for a second, but I did wanna say that one of the things I respect most about Michael Faust here and men like him like Tanner Guzzi is that they act with a really serious intensity and strength for their values. Michael knows what his values are. He knows what he believes and he acts in accordance to them to a really high degree. We can call that authenticity, congruency, masculinity, strength, whatever. Everyone would describe it and there's multiple ways to do it. It's the intensity and the pursuit, the pursuit of those values.  He's gonna have more kids and squeeze his wife till she's a prune or something, the juice thing, right? That's awesome. I love seeing that. I have similar values and not the exact same and we have some major philosophic agreements, but I have a very massive respect for men like him and Tanner Guzzi that live that life. But you also have guys like Jack Donovan too, right?  He lives his life in accordance to his values and he doesn't have any kids and he may not have any kids. He might have one maybe said like happy accident or something, who knows, right? That's his life for him to figure out. What I respect about Jack is the same as what I respect about Michael Faust in context. It's that he lives in accordance to his values, I believe fully and very strongly, not perfectly. None of us are perfect, of course. It's living in accordance to his values in a way that doesn't harm other people, that doesn't defraud them, doesn't violate the rights. I'm an objectivist, you know?  In objectivism, faking reality and lying is a cardinal sin. The whole point of objectivism is living in accordance to reality, adhering to reality to the best of your ability with honesty and integrity to it. That's it.  It's called objectivism. It's based on objective reality. That's why I hate frauds and it also makes me respect men like Michael and Tanner and Jack Donovan and guys who even co-partate these players and stuff, right? They have massively different values than Michael Foster, but they live in accordance to them, right? Whether you respect it, doesn't really matter to me. It's that he's living authentically to that value hierarchy. That's what I respect and that is a deep element of masculinity that I think you would even find in Jack Donovan's work. And so Jack Donovan and I have very different moralities to say the least, right? And anyone that's read his body of the work would know that and I've benefited from the way of men in particular, right? I thought it was a very good book. And one of the highlights of the 21 convention for me was being able to sit out by the pool and talk to Jack Donovan and just get to know the man. And what I appreciate about Jack more than anything was how authentic he was and very honest he was. And one thing he, I was talking to him about Bronze Age Mindset, right? Which is a book written by a Bronze Age pervert. I read the book. I thought the book was really fascinating to me as a Jewish convert to Christianity. It was just very different, right? And Jack said that he hadn't spent much time on it because the guy wrote underneath a pseudonym and the managers had a lot of pseudonyms come through. These are guys who are really talented copywriters in terms of their ability to produce content like blog posts or email newsletters. They are talented, but then you meet them in person and they're significantly different than what they project. And what I took away from my, I had about an hour long conversation with Jack out by the pool with a couple of the guys from the 21 convention. What I took away from Jack was that he was on a quest to understand authentic masculinity. And I think for him, the thing that matters most is that a man is real, right? And he's like, what does it mean to be the best man you can be, right? You know what I mean? More or less. And that's a real problem with the manosphere is a lot of guys are very talented writers and content creators, but in terms of their practical mastery, their ability to actually get a woman to master the vocation to rise above and create a legacy, it's pretty unimpressive, right? They're just really good at writing. And that was a real, that was very helpful to me to have that conversation with Jack Donovan.  Jack Donovan, if you read his book Anderphile, right? You know where Jack falls, very different, right? But I can reciprocally his quest for honesty and realness and that is a real problem in the manospheres that we have guys out there willing to pay for a lie. And that's the thing like guys, like what I would tell you is that a lot of the things that it takes to be a man are simple but not easy. Anyone that's telling you these things are complicated and require like multiple books and whatever, it's BS, it doesn't, right? What it takes to be a man, like most of these things can be written down on a single page, but it's the actual execution of these things that are really difficult, very challenging, right? And- Well, they're combatting forces that are trying to combat these things. So I think that's where some of the work legitimately comes from is trying to combat forces that are trying to destroy them aggressively. Absolutely, I agree. And what I would just say is that beware of frauds that are really good. Like you see these guys on Twitter, I'm pretty active on Twitter, where it's very clear that these guys are just pros at re-appropriating existing content, right? They're really good at it. And then you watch, eventually, eventually these guys do live streams and they do conferences or whatever and you're like, that's the dude, that's the guy, right? I'd like to put you on the spot, if you don't mind. I don't care, go for it. How did I match up in person compared to the online interpretation or persona that you saw? What was the reality there for you? So the way I got into the Manifers, very unlike most people, I have a very solid marriage and I'm very happy and I haven't been divorced or raped or anything like that. What I was trying to understand is how could I help young men in their 20s and 30s? Like as a pastor, I wanted to be able to give them advice that was congruent to the reality that they're in, right? And so I ended up listening to pickup artists and Jordan Peterson and male activists or whatever, like Strawn or whoever they were, right? And so I listened to many, many hours of the Red Men group and I'm very familiar with the content. And so honestly, I don't need anything. I don't get paid money to come down to 21. You cover my expenses when I speak. And I don't need you at all. So I think anyone listening should hear that. Like I have all sorts of outlets. I go down there because it's a unique opportunity to speak to men that not very many people get. And frankly, so far who you were on your podcast and who you were in person, the only difference I would say is that you're a little bit warmer in person, right?  I think that a lot of people would imagine you were, but I just think guys like, the more someone's showing you 10s as women, right? The more they're showing you these amazing homes they live in, the more suspicious you should be. I'm not saying they can't have it. I'm not saying it's not real. I don't know in many cases, right? But I've been around, I mean, I'm top 10 card counter of all time. Like, you know, like I'm a top 10. I'm one of the best card counters who's ever lived in the world. There was a movie made about me. I'm not, I've played with people that I've made. I've lost and made $100,000 in hours in Vegas. I'm not Junior League here. I'm the best card counter you've ever talked to, right? I've been around and I've seen a lot of powerful people and I spent a lot of time with them. And powerful people, I remember when I was gonna be a, so I got recruited to this card counting team, which is a very unique experience. Matter of fact, that is so cool card counting. I just, my mind is blown away every time I hear that. I just did that. I just think Rain Man, you know? I'm not busy preaching the word of God on the card counting. Hang on, let me, in terms of receipts, here, let's, so here, I'll show you real quick. This is, we just moved into a new farm building. Let me show you this right here, right there. Let me open this bad boy up. These are, every casino I've ever played, I took a $1 chip from. So here's, what is this one? This is the Majestic Star in Indiana. This is Fitzgerald, that's down on Tunica. Yeah, that's cool.  I'm not, I'm the best person you know. I was interviewed on This American Life. I'm in the Holy Rollers movie. I was asked to be on a TV show that I, you know, I'm not posing here. I've been around very, very super wealthy people. And I've been around, I've had women offer themselves to me while I was married and I turned them down because I love my wife. But what I'll tell you is when I first started becoming their card counter, I thought rich people would dress like rich people. So I would dress up in like these suits, right? And I would totally get caught. I was, they would like, and then I started to realize is that rich people back, this was 2007, they would walk around in khaki shorts in t-shirt. Rich people like were super at ease. And when rich people lost money, they would act a particular way. And I had to like start to embody that. Cause as a card counter, I'm playing with investors money. And I have to like look the role. But when I watch people in the manager, I'm like, you know what? I know multi-millionaires, right? Like I don't know a couple. I know 20 or 30. Like I know more than they all do, right? I've been there, I've done this. I've got the receipts. I've been in movies, man, right? Like what do I gotta do to like prove this? Rich people don't act the way these folks do. People with access to beautiful women don't act that way. They don't, they're like chill.  They're trying to sell you something. So the more someone's projecting something, you know, the harder they're coming on about something, the more you should get suspicious. And that's what I've seen.  Jack's got kind of an intense persona on stage, but in person, you know, Jack, what impressed me is how accessible he was. You know what I mean? And I think like, you know, Jack's not selling himself and that went a long way with me. People that aren't trying to sell themselves because I've just been around a little bit. And so anyone that you see like with these flashy, these flashy trailers and these over-the-top claims, I'm telling you as someone who is high level and I don't need anything, I don't want anything from you, right? I've made more money. I've sat with celebrities. I've sat with Will Ferrell. I've sat with Charles Barkley. Like, I've been there, man. I've seen all this stuff. I don't care. I don't need anything you have. I can just tell you that people that project like that, those people aren't real. Those people are fakes, you know what I mean? And the man of fear is full of them. And so just beware like the over-the-top projections, the over-the-top offers is evidence of their fraudulent behavior because the men I've met that are the legit, they don't do that stuff at all. Like, look, I know top of the line mixed martial artists. You're like, I've sat in the hot tub with them out of Vegas, right? And those guys aren't like that at all. Those dudes are chill, you know what I mean? These guys that are like always selling themselves and always like positioning themselves against some boogie man. Right? Those guys are after your wallet, man. Like, the real experts, they don't have to do that stuff. Because they have nothing to prove, you know? That's the interesting thing. I'm very fortunate here. I teach some of the wealthiest people in the city where I live in, the capital city of the state I'm at, like owners of hospitals, top surgeons and stuff. And what Michael Foch says is exactly right. I mean, they're loaded and they're cool. They dress normally and they don't show off. And the ones who aren't make a little, they dress to show off and they wanna say, look at me. So it's really interesting how he put that because that's how I've seen it as well. I was really hoping when Michael said he had receipts, he would actually open a book of women, but I was actually more disappointed to see the chips. But I have a question for you guys. Even though you guys dropped more names in the NFL draft, I have a question for you guys. Now, oh geez. Okay, so this is happening. I got to bounce in a minute too, guys. Yeah, we're gonna step down here shortly anyway. This is like Thursday night church for me, man. This is great. Yeah, is it? Okay, so, wow, is another one. Okay, so I have a question. Let me throw a grenade in the room to the religious guys.  I'm gonna bounce, guys. Hey, later, Anthony. Thank you. I appreciate it, man. Thanks, man. Talk to you guys. Oh geez. Now he's got every card out. Okay, so. I say every card, man. There's hundreds of them.  Go on. I'm sure you'd like to show it, but okay. So let me ask. You guys mentioned Finn and Michael about, actually you're both mikes, I think, about receipts and family. What do you say to the guys that don't want family? How do you look at them like me? I'll give you an example. I, and I don't like to women. I respect women. I don't pump and dump. I think I can use that term, right, Tony? Pump and dump, that's acceptable. Yeah. Can I ask you a question before you continue once you married with a kid? Yes, yes, I'm talking about now, moving forward. So I was having two kids, two wonderful kids. You've already been there, go ahead. Okay, so I want to live a life where I just have these very short-term relationships, not pump and dump, but like, you know, meet someone for maybe a week, maybe two months. And that's how I just want to go about life. What is your views on that? I mean, my first question is why do you care? Well, I hear you talking about happiness and I actually personally don't care.  I'm not going to make this a Christian debate tonight. That's not what this show is about. I do not care.  I'm not debating Christian values. I see where you're going with this. No, no, my question is more like the hemisphere is there's different branches. And there's the guys that are almost McDowell, sort of like me-ish. And then there's the spiritual. The spiritual have their path decided. But how do you feel about MGTOW? What do you say to guys that just are fatigued? There's a lot of fatigue out there, right? Mike, Mike, Finn and you. Yeah, let me comment on that, Marty. I think that's a fair question. I'm not offended by that at all. To men who have gotten married, had some kids and gone through family court and divorce court. Like, how do I not, and they're exhausted, right? They don't want to get burned again. Like, I don't have any trouble with saying I identify with that. I think if I had gone through that experience, I would feel somewhere in the same realm, right? And I get that. And so it may be that then we, I think as men, what we do, so manhood is not just taught, it's caught, right? It's a baton that's handed from one generation to the next. Normally, that is along biological lines, familial lines, but it's not always along those lines, right? And so a guy like you, Marty, who may have been experienced in things that aren't positive, you're like, look, I'm not going on that carousel again. You know, I'm not doing that again. I would say you still have a responsibility. Like, you have to ask, what are you? Are you a narcissist or are you a father, right? Do you live for yourself? Whereas a man, do you see other men and do you pass on wisdom and help them dodge the minefields of this world and try to lead them in a better way? And that's what, that would be my word to men like you, Marty. It is like, pass on your wisdom, right? Like, I remember when I first became a Christian, so I grew up in a non-Christian family. I converted when I was 17 years old.  And so Jim didn't have it all figured out, but he took me aside and back then I was a boxer. I was a mixed martial arts, I was a wrestler and he took me alongside and taught me everything he knew, which wasn't a lot. But man, to 17-year-old me, the wisdom he had to offer was gold, right? And it made a difference in my life. So what I would say to a man like you, Marty, I would say like, look, I'm not asking you to make, to throw yourself back into a system that you've just escaped. I'm not asking you to do that. I am asking you to learn from your mistakes and without being black-pilled in the sense that there's just a sort of overwhelming negativity to pass on and help other young men dodge the minds that maybe you stepped on, right? For whatever reason, like we all stepped on minds, right? It's not like a, some of us just don't know, right? Like, and some of us get lucky and we look back and like, oh man, I really got lucky. And that is my story. Like, me, I look at my wife her temperament when we met. I mean, there are so many things outside of my control that has contributed to the power and health of our marriage. Some of it is we did good things, but a lot of it were things like it was the right time, right, I don't want to like claim it as like, I got it, that's all figured out. Cause that's just not true. That's not true. And I know in the way that things fell well for me, maybe they fell negative for other people, right? And there were things outside of their control. And I'm not, I'm not in the business of like, rubbing men, their mistakes in their face or things that were outside of their control. Like, I don't, I don't think that's helpful. That's a great answer. You gave an exactly perfect answer. You worded so well because you actually gave a great message for people not looking for marriage. The way you phrased it, I wish I could just write it down and tape it and put a clip that thank you for that. That is actually what I was actually looking at here. Well, I appreciate that. And what I would say to any men out there listening to this that has been burned, you know, look, when none of us have time machines, right?  What I would tell you is you can help people, you can help people move in forward. And if we do that, we can, we can destroy the world of feminists have made. Women, feminism is a self-destructive system. And men have not been holding men up. And even guys who've made major mistakes or have been in the churn of our terrible legal system, they can help destroy this evil system that we've all been part of just by simply passing on some simple facts. I'm very thankful for the older men of my life who have helped me. I am the, what my biggest advantages isn't my intellect or anything like that, is that I've been privileged to have good brothers and fathers who've helped me along the way. And I would say, men like you, Marty, like invest in young men, build them up and push them into the forward. That would be my, my exhortation to a man like you. That's great advice.  That's exactly, you see, it wasn't spiritual Tony. He actually, you know, he hit it on the head. That's- I understand that. It's funny because Stefan Molinou had said the same thing. He had talked about a man that doesn't have kids or a man that's not going to basically be in that relationship. In other words, do something that you're going to leave a legacy, do something that you're going to leave behind that's gonna make a mark in this world. And I think that's really basically what you said also. And I think that's important. I think that's important is all men.  And, you know, I do believe in positivity. I'm very big on lifting men up, on lifting women up, you know? I don't, I'm not under the AWALT, all women are like that. I think there are certain things that, yes, there are certain traits that women have that are part of being a woman, but there's also the traits that being a man is what makes the two combined very well. I think the feminine and the masculine belong together. I think it's important as men that we understand that. Not only do we want to lift up men, but I think it's also time to lift up women. The family. Yeah, lift up the family. I think the family, I am such a big proponent, we'll call it a family. Me too. Even though I don't have a family, I'm stoked for every person that has a family. Every person, every man that has a great household, every woman that's a great mother, and even if she's a successful woman, I'm okay with that. I'm okay with people creating and building. I think that the family structure has just been destroyed. And that's the part that bothers me. When I see men having kids and creating something, you're creating life. I mean, a couple of weeks ago, it's probably been three weeks since I've asked guys, hey, you can reach out to me. And I've had guys reach out to me on Twitter and on Instagram. And I wanna recognize these guys right now. I'm not gonna mention any names at it. One guy, I don't know if I mentioned it in the last stream, but he had got a woman pregnant. I'm not gonna say any really specifics on it, but I appreciated this guy reaching out to me for, he didn't reach out to me for advice, but what I did do was hold him accountable. But I also made him realize that you made a life.  Be proud of that. Own it. This is your offspring. This is your child. Doesn't matter where it came from at this point, but it's coming soon. So regardless of your issue, whether or not you want to be with her, be a father. Be a father to this child. Now, there's a chance that he might not have that option, but one day he will have that option, I think. You did that perfectly, Tony. It's not just 17%, which is the number. It's also, it's your time. When you get a woman pregnant, you're not just giving your money. You owe the time to the child. It's for the child, yeah. I mean, to me, that's, what a greater gift, what better gift can you have than to bring another life into this world? You know, I know there's a lot of the MGTOW channels, oh, now you've got 21 years of child payments and whatever, I get it. But you are the one who didn't use a condom, who made sure that in that moment of drunkenness, you didn't hold yourself accountable. You didn't do what you needed to do, maybe for your 10 seconds of enjoyment. You know, you didn't do what you needed to do to protect yourself.  So you bring this life into this world, do what you can to give that life the best life and be the best father. That's well said, you know. Many men just think 21 years and it's actually the rest of your life. And you shouldn't look at it as a chore. You should look at it as a great thing. And many men do not see that. And that's what's sad. Amen. I think in the Manisphere, what we have to be aware of is peddlers of despair. So when you're down and you've gone through something very negative, there's a lot of money in confirming your emotional state, right?  And I think we've all made mistakes or have gone through intense times. I know I've gone through some pretty intense times. And guys that don't say like, yeah, what happened to you is real. I'm with you. But here's how you pivot from that and move forward. Guys that don't, that's what you're looking for. If they don't show you how you can move forward and build, who cares? And right now as a pastor, so I'm a conservative politically speaking, I think Biden being our president is not a good thing. And so I have a lot of people who are telling me how terrible Biden is. And I'm like, so what? What are you gonna do about it? Like, I'm with you. I don't care, I'm with you, I agree. But so what, what are you gonna do? And that's the thing I think we have to boil things down to a lot of times. Like, okay, you made your point, now what? What are you gonna do about it? What action proceeds from this knowledge? And if no action comes from it and all of it is a justification to stay in the ash heap of society and mourn your victim status and wine, wine, wine, wine, well then clearly there's nothing positive about it. But that's not good. And so anytime I see a manosphere expert or a course that more or less is justified victim ideology underneath some other name, I note those people. What I'm looking for has been that don't deny trauma or bad experiences or the reality of a feminist society or a corrupt family court. I want people to acknowledge that. But what I'm most interested in is what now, like what are men to do? What are you to do with all your energy? What are your actions? And if someone's not like casting a vision of positive action moving forward, then so what? I don't need someone to tell me the world sucks, right? I know the world sucks, right? Tell me like, what now? What do I do in a sucky world? And if they're not telling me what to do in a sucky world, they're just there to profit from your misery and your suffering, right? And that's so much of what we see out there. I love it. I love it. Well, guys, we're gonna wrap it up because this guy's gotta get to work early, but the topic of the show tonight was saving men's lives. And I think that's so important. I really do. And I'm ashamed. I'm shocked at the men in this community and other communities that take advantage of this injured guy. I don't wanna hear anymore, I'm saving men's lives. How about just do it? You don't need to say it on every podcast. You don't need to post your screenshots on Instagram or on Twitter. I think we've gotten to the point to where, we've gone down this whole rabbit hole earlier in the show that a lot of guys, again, when you hear saving your life, it can mean a whole lot of things, okay? I think my biggest concern is the guys that actually are going to put a noose around their neck, a guy that is actually going to put a shotgun and use his toe to blow his brains out. These are the guys that I'm most concerned about. My question is to these content creators, would you still pick his pocket after he pulls the trigger? And I'm gonna say most of you would. And that's the reality check of Thursday night. I'm ashamed, I'm disgusted. I wanna be a part of a positive group that lifts men up, that lifts women up, that creates something in this world that's going to help everybody. And my bias toward men, because I'm a man of course, but do I wanna see women succeed? Yeah, I wanna see men and women succeed together. Do I think we have enemies as men? Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, 100%. I think certain groups wanna see us neutered, but it's not gonna happen.  It's not gonna happen on Gonzo's watch. It's not gonna happen on Marty's watch. It's not gonna happen on Michael Foster's watch. It's not gonna happen on Mr. Finn's watch. It's not gonna happen on Anthony Johnson's watch. It's not gonna happen on Frank Pesci's watch. It's not gonna happen on Primal Man's watch. It's not gonna happen. So my suggestion to guys is discernment, discern. When you feel something is wrong, it's wrong. Throw your money at the people that you genuinely feel that have helped you. Do not throw money at somebody for validation. I think a good test is you throw money at somebody.  Did it really make a change in your life? Or did it make you angry? And one more thing I'm gonna say, confrontation as a man, can't we all just get along?  We've had disagreements here tonight, but the best thing is everybody on this panel will still text each other tomorrow, will still call each other tomorrow because we're men.  I think in the end as men, it will come back to you. My question to the guys that are your grifters, would you still do this if there wasn't a buck in it for you? I'm gonna say no. There's genuine, there's authentic. You guys need to start peeling back the masks. And I think these masks have been peeled back lately and I'm glad, it makes me happy. It's time, it's time for a change, guys. It's time to flush it. It's time to get rid of the garbage, get rid of the fakes.  Any last words we'll start with Gonzo. Be sure to buy the course. I think we dropped the price tonight, right? Yeah, yeah, I think it's like, well, I don't know, what was it, per is like 250? Yeah, in fact, I changed the name instead of how to find a value, high value woman, how to save a man's life. Yeah, yeah. And it's funny because it's funny you said that because you'll see podcasts where somebody is a little bit passionate like I am tonight about this. And then right at the end, there it is, man. There's the hook, there it is. There's the pitch, yeah. Well, I think, you know, and again, we've kind of touched on this before, but I think it's fine to have products, it's fine to be selling something. There's nothing wrong with making money in and of itself. But yeah, a lot of it is like this emotional thing. And you know, one thing I wanted to point out too, we were talking about deception at the beginning, at the top of the show. And one thing that I've noticed is that a lot of the, you know, a lot of these guys that you have to be weary of, I think, be vigilant about. I noticed that there's this trend of these guys saying, the whole world is against me. Everybody's coming out to get me. Everybody is like, I'm so persuasive and my message is so good that everybody is trying to shut me down all at once. And they're always saying it, it's not just like a one-time thing, it's not like, you know, just this like, oh, this tough thing happened. It's like, no, it's like every day, every day they're coming out and they're like, it's so terrible, this is so bad. Just all these negatives, it's like, oh man, they're trying to shut me down. They're trying to shut me down. And so I think you have to be aware of that. I think that's a big telltale sign. People who act like the whole world is out to get them. And you know, I get it. But then you know, even you look at, I don't think I've heard a single guy here tonight on this panel who's ever said anything like that, ever. I mean, we've talked about how bad feminism is. We've talked about how bad the situation is for men, but nobody on this panel, I've heard express any type of victimhood. And so, and that's not real leadership either when you have that outlook, like everybody's out to get me. But yeah, just stay positive, positive 100%. Marty, we'll go to you. Any last words?  I thought it was a little intense. There was some disagreements, which were great. I like Michael's, the end what Michael told me about people who have a different paths. But you know, he did hit on it that especially older guys like me, we need to live by example and help. You know, learn from our mistakes and our scars and help our fellow man. And that really resonates. I'm gonna, and Mike, don't blame me. I'm gonna go back to this video later and copy what you said, but it was great. And I just wanna say one last thing to everyone. Happy Easter. I know tomorrow's a good Friday. Don't eat meat and enjoy. Thanks Marty. Michael Foster, any last thoughts?  Broken family. My dad is an ex-con with a eighth grade education. My mom grew up and my grandfather died when she was 11 years old. You know, I'm the product of a broken America and yet I'm in a happy marriage with a lot of children. I've made my way to the top of society, you know, somehow. You know, I'm highly paid for what I do and I've been a card counter, I've been in movies, I've been on rate shows and I'm not an exceptional Indian, honestly, you know. I would just tell any young guys out there and guys hopeless like just hard work and don't get down, don't lose hope. I've been the recipient of a lot of mentorship that I didn't pay for, men that just made time. Like those are guys that are willing to give you wisdom. They're 20 years of view. If you listen to it and act on it, you don't know how far you can go. And I look at my life and it's a joke to me and my wife, we laugh about it all the time.  Buying this farm is insane, right? Our church is like busting at the seams, that's insane. And I think a lot of guys want to tell you that you can't do great things, but I'll tell you right now, if you grew up the way I did, your problem isn't that you don't have enough ambition, is that you have too little, right? You can go much further than you ever think you could, right? And being a Christian keeps me humble. I know my need for salvation through Jesus. I know I'm very familiar with my sins and shortcomings and I'm very thankful for being born again. I'm gonna celebrate the death of Christ tomorrow and the resurrection of Christ on Sunday. But I would tell any of you guys out there listening that you can go much further than you think you can. Don't believe the lies, man. Don't try to live out this YouTube BS. My life is superior to most of the YouTubers. I don't say that as a way of bragging. I say that because that's how fake they are. And you can have something real. And just go for it, man, go for it. You don't know how far you can go. I can't believe how far I've went. It's just been by God's mercy. But I'm sure if people listen here, you can go even further than I did. And just know people like me are not special. I'm not special at all. No more special than you are. You can do it. So that'd be my word to any man on this day. I love it. We'll go to Mr. Finn, any last words? Yeah, following Michael Foster is just no easy task, man. Great stuff. And I just, I'd love to have that opportunity to meet him. And I just think what he gives is golden. It's golden. And learning about the past that he's had is just even more exceptional as far as being around and knowing what he's talking about. Okay, so, yeah, look, life is tough. Life, I mean, in speaking from experience, I didn't grow up white trash, but bottom middle class, parents split up young, on my birthday, on my eighth birthday, having responsibility thrust it on me as a kid. But one of the things that I got, my parents, they left each other, they didn't leave us.  And I take that in my own life. What Michael had said to Marty is spot on, those of us who have life experiences, those of us men who have life experiences, it's like an unspoken duty to share that with the next generation, like Michael said, pass it on that baton. It's necessary. It's one of the reasons why I stayed in Brazil after I divorced my ex-wife. I was homeless, man, I had nothing, but I stayed in Brazil, one, because I didn't really have the money to move back to America, but two, I had noticed the impact that I was having on the kids and teenagers out here. Lots of kids and stuff out here, and teenagers, they don't have a good male role model. And I agree with what Mike says. I'm no one exceptional or special. I know who I am. I know my values. I live by a code of values. I am a Bible-believing Christian. To say what Marty said yesterday, I'm a practicing Christian, not a Catholic. I'm gonna be eating meat tomorrow, and all I gotta tell you is Romans 14, right? I eat meat every day. So anyways, anyways, so getting to the point, life is tough. This is why one of the reasons why we are, we are bound to respect and honor our elders, not only because they've gone before us and they need us to take care of them now, but they made it. It's not an easy track to go on. So if anyone here is watching and needs help, reach out to any one of us here.   You could go to a fireman. You could go to someone like that. And I made it a point as a teacher. I remember starting almost every semester in the school, especially when I taught teenagers, I would let them know, look guys, when you're, if you're going through things and if you need an ear to talk, to hear you, if you need someone to talk to you, reach out to me because I think it's getting harder and harder for kids and teens and young men, just the pressures of society, families here in Brazil, there's even more pressures. So anyways, to wrap this up, there are people who care. And a little bit of responsibility is on the person listening to this to be able to discern who is that person that cares. I think a lot of gold, there were lots of pearls of wisdom given here, how to be able to discern that. Find that person. And you may get hurt a little on the way, just don't give up because they exist. And we all need to remember that we do not live an island unto ourselves. We live in a society, in a community, whether it be on a farm or Michael Foster is, whether it be in Queens, right, Marty? That's where you are, out in South America, where I am, Texas, I mean, it doesn't matter where you are, there's a community, there are people. And I guarantee you, if you need help, just keep your eyes open, keep your ears open and just pay attention and be careful of the swindlers and the con artists and the ones trying to pitch a deal to you. And that's what I have to say. There's always hope. I think that's a good human trait, there's always hope. And you may not always win, but don't consider failure a loss if you learn from it. You can learn from mistakes, you can learn from pain. In fact, I think sometimes it's necessary to grow and mature. Just don't give up, just don't give up. And if you, and I've, last thing I'll say, if anyone here is watching this, and if you are suicidal and if you're having pain, reach out. Reach out to me, I've talked, I'm not an expert, I'm not an expert, I'm not a psychologist, but if you need someone to talk to you, I'll be willing to listen. I've had that, I was shocked to have that experience a few times as a teacher, a team. And it was a rattling experience. All I can tell you is if you need someone to listen, just reach out, all right? Because a new day brings new opportunities, don't give up. It's always darkest before the dawn. And that's it, all right?  I like it, I like it. Well guys, we're gonna wrap this up. Again, anybody watching, you can reach out to pretty much anybody on this panel. So I have descriptions for everybody. And I think you can follow Michael Foster on Twitter. This is Foster, correct? This is Telegram, yeah, Telegram, it's great, love it. Twitter, this is Foster, correct? That is correct, this is Foster. If you go to my pin tweet on Twitter, you can follow my Telegram, which I think my Telegram channel is like I am Foster or something. Anyway, this is Foster. Is it? Okay, well there you go. I don't know, go to my pin tweet on Twitter, this is Foster, there you go. Yeah, I love it, great stuff. But follow everybody here. I do have descriptions of everybody who's been on the panel tonight in the, I have links to it in the description of this video for everybody that's been on the panel. It's been a long stream, guys. And I do appreciate everybody that was in the chat.  I don't want you to think that I didn't see all your comments and I do appreciate that. But like, subscribe, share, ring the bell. And I do wanna say that this Saturday night we will be off. It's a holiday weekend and I'm taking the weekend off. So we will pick back up on Thursday night reality check that's next Thursday, possibly before then. I don't know. I will be bringing on some really good guests you guys will be excited about. And then a week from Saturday, we will have Saturday night, get it off your chest. Again, anybody wants to find me, talk to me, reach out to me, Instagram and Twitter, T21 surfer. That's my direct message. That's T21 surfer, T, the number two, the number one and then surfer. So appreciate all of you, appreciate all the chat and all my panel guys and we'll see you very soon. Cheers.