Rhaid i'n gweithio, everybody. My name is Claire Baker, MSP, and I'm a convener of the Economy and Fair Work Committee in Parliament. This is the 19th year of the Festival for Politics, and thank you very much for coming to this session this afternoon. I'm looking forward to discussion and hearing everybody's point of view. I remind people that there can be differences of opinion and that if everybody can act respectively towards each other that would be much appreciated. Later on, I will be asking for questions and comments from the audience, and if you're keen to continue your thoughts to let you know that you can use the at-visit Scottish Parliament channel or on Instagram, you can put thoughts up in there, and just to remind everybody that the event has been live streamed on to Scottish Parliament television. I'm delighted today to be joined by Catherine McWilliam, Raphael Peales, who is joining us online, Ross Foy and Professor Patricia Finlay. As quick introductions, Catherine McWilliam is the National Director of the Institute of Directors in Scotland and is an organisation that is passionate about promoting good governance and diverse leadership. Dr Raphael Peales, who is joining us online, works for the Bureau for Workers Activities of the International Labour Organization in Geneva. Ross Foy is General Secretary of the Scottish Trade Union Congress and has been an active trade union member for over 30 years, which is making both of us feel old now, Ross. Patricia Finlay is the Stinguished Professor of Work and Employment Relations and Director of the Scottish Centre for Employment Research at the University of Strathclyde. Thank you all for coming along this afternoon. I will start with a first question to the panel, which is about the relevance of the trade union movement in the UK and Scotland today. As I said, Ross has been involved in the trade union movement for over 30 years, and I first met Ross when she was a young trade unionist. She's still in the movement, but we know that trade union membership has fallen over the last few decades. It's not the only institution that's happened to. If you look at church membership or other membership, that's going to be a symptom of the way in which we live our lives, that there's a reduction in certain areas. I'm going to come to Ross first of all and talk about whether you feel that trade unions are relevant to the modern workplace and modern society. Unsurprisingly, yes, I do. I think that there's a very strong argument that they've never been more relevant than they have over the past couple of years. I think that this is part of human nature. When people have been treated unjustly, they find ways to come together and organise themselves in order to exercise some collective power. What we've seen certainly in Scotland is an unprecedented level over the past couple of years of trade union activity and of workers coming together and fighting back to get decent pay and working conditions at a time when the pendulum has really swung so far against them that coming together and exercising that collective power has been the only way they've been able to get results and get results they have because over the past year workers managed to get through negotiated collective bargaining agreements over £2 billion worth of pay rises into their pockets and more than half of that wouldn't actually have been delivered if workers hadn't voted to take strike action and delivered successful industrial action campaigns. So here in Scotland not only are we relevant and making a real difference, you could argue actually that the trade union movement has been the biggest force for wealth redistribution in Scotland in the past two years given the additional money that we've got into ordinary working people's pockets and that has an impact on areas that aren't organised as well because what it does in a tight labour market is bring pay up right across the whole economy so you know if you want to raise paying conditions you need trade unions, you need collective bargaining and I think more and more young people and people right across our population are waking up to the fact that politicians aren't going to do it for us, the bosses aren't going to do it for us, workers have to do it for themselves and they have to get organised. But are we seeing an increase in membership or is it change in the industries in which membership is stronger? Well sure, if you've seen all the successful trade unions you would think you would see more people wanting to join a trade union. Well actually if you look at the rates of people that are joining trade unions they are very strong. Trade union membership in terms of the affiliation of the STUC in recent years has been growing steadily and that's in a context where actually the age when you think of all the people dropping off because the age profile has been quite high over the past decade or so. When you look at Covid and the amount of older people that left the labour market I'm actually I see it as a sign of real success that we are still on a positive trajectory there. Sure we are half the size we were in the 1970s a lot of that is about the industries that where workers work changing so quickly and there are a lot of areas where workers in precarious contracts haven't collectivised and haven't got organised but there's lots of evidence that they're starting to do so so if we look at the Amazon workers globally they're using global communication to egg each other on to get organised at warehouses right across the world it's happening here in the UK it's happening massively in America and in many other countries we've seen the apple workers in Glasgow the apple store young people get together and become one of the first apple stores in Europe to get organised and win a collective agreement so you know we're seeing some really exciting seeds of change we're seeing young workers in Unite hospitality come together in the hospitality industry and start to deliver direct actions because they might not be able to get recognition but they realise that they can win important conditions by acting collectively and taking direct action so I think that it's not just about overall numbers you know after 30 years of neoliberal governments that have done everything they can to dismantle the trade union movement the fact that we're still here we're the biggest membership organisation in Scotland and we're over 600 000 strong I think is a testament to the fact that you know we're not going anywhere and I'm going to ask Dr Appeals to come in if he would want to provide a kind of international perspective on relevance of trade unions you know Ross referred to Amazon workers cooperating internationally is that a common kind of approach or are you seeing countries where trade unionism is is growing a faster rate than we see here thank you so much Sharon and I hope everybody's here me well and particularly greetings to the general secretary yes I believe that trade unions are more relevant than ever I think there are a lot of challenges pressures prices is going on I think we can refer to that as a a poly a poly crisis but I think what over time has been shown by unions is I think a lot of resilience I think during COVID-19 trade unions showed a lot of positive examples of protecting most precarious workers, negotiating wage protection when defending frontline workers etc however I think it's important to recognise and meet them to look at on the one hand when we discuss trade union membership and influence as as Ross mentioned before it's not only about members but it's also to some extent about members we have external challenges and internal challenges for unions I think the external challenges are massive I think there's a lot of violations of trade union rights in the world you have the changing employment relationship I think if you prefer to keep work to platform work I think that is a manifestation of a changing employment relationship we have globalization we have highly unionised sectors that disappear between the global south with often weaker unions or emerging sectors in the global north where maybe we're less unionising so you have I think a complicated environment for unions to work in on the other hand there are also internal challenges and I think in the description of this panel youth is particularly highlighted it is key that also young workers are represented through unions but also for instance are represented in decision making of unions so then if you have a look at external challenges internal challenges then if that is reflected in trade union membership then if you have a look at the global figures and we look at figures in different regions in the world and we see that trade union membership is going down over time that's rather systematically over the past decades in all regions in the world irrespective of the level of development so that means both in developing countries and we also see that that is stronger for people in non-standards or the most precarious types of employment independent workers the keep workers temporary workers the open account workers etc so what that shows is that these non-standard forms of employment or this increasingly diverse range of employment is not only a threat to workers because often these types of employment relationships are characterized by important decent work deficits but it's also resulting in lower levels of unionization so it's also dangerous for trade unions some positive news though over the past years there are positive examples of organizing these very hard to organize workers, self-employed, the open account workers if you don't have a look from the global perspective in the global sector could be base speakers but also any more translators, journalists, actors, musicians in the previous which are a little bit the the previous generation of what today would be the geek workers in this they were already large independent workers as ILO we or as ACTRAF we we we try to reflect a little bit upon the this key challenges with regard to membership by means of four scenarios um and I only put this um to the front is food for thought um we have a first dystopian one um which is a depressing one so if um membership continues to decrease um then unions um can become more marginalized um um it can be more aging unions if we're not able to organize young workers that's the marginalization scenario the second scenario is the dualization scenario where you have to look at the labour markets from a dual system so trade unions are able to defend themselves there where they are traditionally strong for these workers in stable employment relationship in big companies in public sector however at a cost of not necessarily representing a whole group of workplace um then the third scenario would be replacement that is referring to trade unions being in competition with other actors such as NGOs community-based organizations but also for instance private lawyers so um these organizations are already working with the same people with the same workers and then the fourth scenario is the few good stories that's revitalization that's those sectors those countries those topics um where trade unions are able to renew to come up with solutions to these new challenges to come up with innovative tactics to organize all workers including um in this changing economy um to come up with relevant services including for instance digital service including new approaches and social dialogue and globalized economy etc okay thank you thank you when we come to um Patricia um so while you know in scot draff hails talks about gig economy and in scotland we have fair work commitments but we still have a gig economy we still have lots of people who are in very short-term contracts and in that type of employment how do what roles do trade unions have and do you think there's issues that need to be resolved and what role do trade unions have and how we improve workers terms and conditions and how they match up with what government commitments and ambitions are so so picking up on some of the points that we made already i mean trade unions are still the biggest membership organization in the uk as well as scotland we still see a very strong association between the presence of trade unionism and a whole range of good working conditions so it's not just about the pay premium that comes from union membership but it's also about um are you more likely to get access to flexible working are you more likely to be involved in conversations around health and safety or around um internal company decision making so we know that there's a lot of really strong associations and i guess what raffael talked about in terms of dualism there's lots of places where trade unionism is strong and it produces really positive outcomes for their own individual members i think turning to the kind of broader fair work agenda in scotland it's very clear um that what underpins that agenda is not simply that trade unions are good for members but that trade unions are also good in producing outcomes that are positive for businesses and for society as a whole so if you look at the kinds of engagement which people like rose and other trade union officials and trade union activists will have across scotland they will be engaged in policy discussions around fair work very broadly and i'm happy to come back to that they'll be engaged in discussions about the skills system they'll be engaged in discussions about gender equality so there's a lot of places in which the expertise of trade unionism is currently heavily involved in engaging with policy and policy makers and so that part about do you deliver for your members we've seen a wave of of strikes and industrial actions and we can look at the extent to which that delivers for trade union members individually but i think if you can hark right back to allen flanders of the 50s trade unions also have a role as a sword of justice so they produce outcomes that are not just for trade unions themselves not trade union members quite often with collective bargaining coverage they produce outcomes for people who are not trade union members that are directly instrumentally beneficial to them but they're also engaged in a whole lot of civic organisations policy engagement and campaigning which produces outcomes at that societal level and an economic level are very positive so in terms of when we discuss fair work in scotland we're picking up on all of those roles that giving fair work produces for us as a nation as well as individually we think fair work matters because having a good job is associated with very very positive outcomes for individuals it's good for your income it's good for your health both now and in the future and it's good for your family life it's good for your ability to engage in your local community or in civic society we know that having a good job predictable hours a decent level of income allow facilitates you to do lots of other really good things but we also know that that also that helps in discussions with employers about restructuring or about responding to challenges that businesses and other organisations faces and we know that that's a very positive part of what's behind the fair work agenda in scotland not just that it benefits individuals who are in work and in trade unions or not but it benefits us all because it produces a better model of economic functioning in which we use our resources better to produce stronger outcomes and we share in those more we redistribute those in a far better way I have come to Catherine about employers' views of trade unions because I used to work for my first trade union job was working for Unite to Amicus at the time and when I started that was in 2002 the debate then was a lot about how do employers and trade unions work cooperatively together how do we increase productivity how do we increase terms and conditions by working very closely together and have a shared agenda and I would say under the current UK government you know there are efforts there to restrict the rights of trade unions and to restrict their ability to take direct action and where do employers and directors in terms of the perception of the relationship with trade unions where do you think that's at the moment to be honest I think it's a spectrum depending on the sector in the industry that you're in and it would be very difficult to give you a one size fits all answer what I can speak to is the conversations that we've had with directly with IOD members who predominantly are running SME organisations and what I would say is there's a real willingness to really look at how you can be the best employer you can be just now my members are recognising that they don't necessarily have the you know the turnover or the power to be able to just up salaries in line with inflation so they're looking at other ways that they can stand up for their employees and be better and I think that would indicate a real positive swing on the spectrum but likewise there are others out there that are just completely opposed so I think it would be fair to say you know there is no one size fits all and it would be a case by case kind of basis but I certainly feel that there is a willingness there to look at how we can be better because actually right now post Covid you know we are seeing an incredibly engaged workforce who are very aware of their rights and looking at you know how they can get the most out of their employment it's not just about a job that you go to and you bring home a salary it's what's the purpose of the organisation that you work for what do they stand for and there are a lot of people that are applying those types of conditions when it comes to working for an organisation it's not just about how much is the salary how does that compare to you know the biggest competitor so the short answer would be there's a real spectrum but a willingness there because we are in a very tight labour market at the moment and inflation is higher than it's been in you know in my adult work and life which is making you know rose you talked about pay claims is making it pay claims at the same time has been necessary because people are dealing with across the living crisis is maybe making it difficult for some of the people that Catherine represents to meet those concerns because they are dealing with inflationary pressures so how much of the trade union movement you know Catherine talks about other areas whether it's about more flexible work in or that can be given as benefits to employers is that something to employees is that something I mean that's something day and day out the things that hit the the media headlines are the when when an industrial action takes place and we end up in that sort of situation but you know right across our economy and across the private sector the voluntary sector trade unionists are negotiating with employers and you know there have been outcomes like you know things like moving to a four day week reduced working hours for those employers who haven't been in a position perhaps to make pay rises the whole you know the whole basket of conditions of work are always on the agenda and you know often it's trade unions that are actually bargaining around skills and diversification with their employer as well if they can see the writing on the wall in a particular company or industry often it's the it's the trade unions that are talking to the employer diversification that may well be lobbying government for investment to certain industries you know because they care about the longevity of the the jobs of the workers in there if we even look at you know the whole offshore oil and gas industry at the moment there is a huge amount of activity taken place by the unions who organise workers in those areas not just you know blankly saying we don't want to see this industry shut down what they're doing is they're lobbying government to make sure that the new industries coming in will entitle the workers to transition over into things like renewables so you know there are active conversations taking place about skills passports and things like that so there is a whole plethora of negotiation around the equalities agenda around terms and conditions and also around industrial and economic strategy that trade unions get really centrally involved in because they want to see security sustainability and high quality jobs for their members that's what our members expect of us so it's it's about much more than just simple paying conditions and what about public perception of trade unions you think people generally understand that because what they'll see as you as you said is the headlines whether there's a big strike happening and it's about usually about pay is what maybe a bit more than that but pay is what reaches the the media or that's what's reported on do you think there's public sympathy for trade unions because we have gone through the teachers have been in strike that puts pressure on parents and the healthcare workers are going on strike that means operations can get cancelled so the public are feeling the effects of some of the significant strikes do you feel there's still public support and we understand of why people I think we're in we're in because of the pressures that are on our whole class workers right across the economy I think people very well understand why workers are forced to the point of taking action and actually having been on literally hundreds of picket lines over the past 12 to 18 months what I can tell you is the more like many rallies than picket lines the amount of beeps that you're getting from the public are unbelievable the amount of messages of support trade unions are getting into their branch offices and their headquarters from members of the public as we've never seen anything like this and it's as if the the UK government in particular I do differentiate between the UK government and the Scottish government I think the Scottish government at least see trade unions as a serious social partner that has something to contribute they don't always give us what we want but they will talk to us the UK government sees trade unions as almost like economic terrorists and that that creates a very different approach but what we've seen is a public who are largely supportive because they they can't pay their bills they understand they can't feed their kids they can't heat their homes and most of them work in you know all of the places that are that are taking industrial action so or they have a family member who works in those areas and I also think that post Covid you know we had all of those public sector workers out on the front line putting themselves and their families at real risk people died and something is snapped inside people's heads the anger has got to a point where people are like no we need to do something about this we're not taking this anymore and you can really feel that when you're out there talking to teachers, lecturers, transport workers, hospital workers, local government workers you know I'm often quite angry when I'm on the tv and things but it's because I've been speaking to these workers and I'm filled with fury at what they're having to go through and that you know they provide fantastic public services and we were all out clamping them and then we just threw them on the rubbish heap when it came to rising costs and tried to blame them for inflation it's not them that are to blame for inflation it's the excessive profits that some parts of our economy are making right at the very top you know we're seeing people at the very top of the tree making huge profits we're seeing CEOs give themselves pay rises of 40% while they're giving workers 2% at the very bottom of the pile that is completely unacceptable and relevant to Rosie's points there during the pandemic that was all talk of we're going to build back better that was kind of the catchphrase I mean patricia do you feel that that catchphrase is I mean on the back of that we didn't have that pandemic and then we had financial crisis created by was trust's government was one of the key fact you know we're in the situation not the only thing there but um there was other pressures came on the back of the pandemic do you think the kind of we're going to build back better language has resulted in much change or any change oh I don't think the the phrase build back better or levelling up was the other part of that from from a UK government perspective and this is not a political point in a kind of constitutional or nationalist sense at all I don't think that that has any real depth in embedding any of that in policy making I don't think it was intended to or has produced much in the way of real change I mean you're absolutely correct clear to say that things have happened there has been a pandemic nobody predicted it there has been another financial crisis the war in the ukrain the challenge in all of these is that I suppose the one way to think about all of those is we will never be in a position where there isn't some sort of crisis or challenge the key issue is how we deal with those what kind of architecture of dialogue do we have in place how do we speak to each other what institutions are there till I was to make the sorts of discussions that rose was talking about between workers their trade unions and employers to make those constructive and productive and that's not to suggest that everything's easy or you could make it perfect but you could have a dialogue that says right okay we have a real challenge arising from x what are the various ways in which we should support that or we can we can address that when we talk about fair work we're really interested in substantive things so what actual things about your experience at work are different are different are and are high quality but also processes and I don't mean by that bureaucratic processes how do people talk to each other in organisations how do they resolve the very challenges that you've outlined how do they respond to those in a way that is fair and equitable and I think that that's somewhere where you really do need either for for governments to be giving a strong lead or to have embedded institutions that that keep that dialogue stable one of the real challenges we have in in Scotland and in the UK is that we don't have we have a liberal market economy we don't have the kinds of institutions that keep people like rose in constant dialogue or her counterpart in England and Wales that keep them in constant dialogue with government and policy makers or keep them in constant dialogue with employers it happens in some sectors and not others so we've got a very weak institutional setup in Scotland in the UK I think what we've tried to do with fair work is to find a kind of voluntary way of replicating that so we don't have the institutions we don't have the works councils we don't have the regular dialogue around formal roles in the skills system for example but through the fair work agenda we've tried to say can we create those even though there are no powers to make them formally part of the system of employment relations if you want to call it that in Scotland and that's always going to have challenges but it's also got some benefits because we can we can be creative in some of those spaces and trying to find ways forward so if you look for example at social care um the convention fair work convention did an inquiry in social care a few years ago um we argued that quite a lot of the things about the commission in the social care were creating the outcomes that we're always going to create poor jobs and that trade unions would be unhappy with um and we've tried to find ways slowly and painstakingly to try and get to try and address that through a process of dialogue that informs um Catherine's members and Rosie's members and the policy community and other you know advisors and experts to be able to try and say what can we do with that so we're all we will always have crisis um they might not be quite as big as some of the ones we've had recently but we will always have things that might be AI it might be technologies that mean that certain sectors or certain occupations will largely disappear those will always be our crises but we need to find ways of having a stable constructive response to crisis in which the pain and the benefits are shared one of the real challenges i think we've had in labour relations in the UK is um a willingness to share the pain when things are difficult but less of a willingness to share the benefit when times are good and that people have long memories in workplaces and um doctor appeals i don't know if you want to come in and come in on kind of post pandemic environment for trade unions and employee relationships in a more international setting and where there's examples of where things have improved or where that's put more stress on situations um yeah yeah thank you for that then um i couldn't agree more with what the panelist um just mentioned um as i know we are a tripartite organisation so everything we do we do that together between workers government and employees so there's a whole idea of social dialogue and that is a little bit the response that we tend to get including in times of of COVID-19 and and I think we have been doing mappings um where unions faces have been involved in negotiations with the government um or directly and directly with employers to provide answers to the the biggest crisis um that was brought about by corona the so for us social dialogue um is the institution um to provide answers um to um not only uh corona um i think there was also a moment and where we saw a lot of new types of social dialogue more atro, online etc that is mentioned by by the colleagues and irrespective of the topic can be economic structuring can be skills upgrading can be technological change AI etc we always tend to come back to meaningful social dialogue where the social partners seem to get it to um to provide answers to these challenges um maybe click a quick reflection on interest on the one hand COVID-19 and then the whole public perception I think also during the crisis um we have seen that the frontline workers are um really essential jobs um and we're really working at the frontline of our economy who have been most hard hit and if these workers that we actually have to defend so that's actually also a kind of a moment of opportunity to um I think um with having a positive public perception around these jobs to negotiate um to negotiate wages around that um but then also I think we also have seen a kind of the the post COVID-19 depression where we all thought that okay this is a um a crisis of the system we will we we think our economic system economic dependency and inequality um in our economy whereas we also then have seen that in the end of time the more people who are in most precarious um employment the most vulnerable workers who have been um paying the price of that crisis um so yes I think that's that's a double a double still again and Catherine I don't know if you want to say a bit more about kind of post pandemic and your members and I'm wondering how many do you know whether your members are the unionised workforces or it's mainly SMEs you you work with do they tend to have lower mainly SMEs with lower lower unionised numbers yeah and in terms of the kind of post pandemic you talked about employers having to have more um flexible workplaces and due to recruitment and retaining their workers given a cost of living crisis but has the pandemic changed things because one thing we did talk about during the pandemic and Rosmyn want to come up in after you was about people changing their place of work so working more at home what does that mean for the trade union movement and what does that also mean for making sure people are working in a safe environment when they're not in the workplace that kind of different leadership is that presented challenges for your directors it definitely has responsibilities absolutely and I mean we're definitely seeing again spectrum that's my word of the day but a real kind of spectrum when it comes to buy in with flexible working and you know post Covid environment again there's a real willingness there for leaders to have dialogue with our employees and colleagues around flexible working but it won't surprise you to hear that many are concerned about productivity and you know the effect on kind of social culture we're seeing those who run hard lines about you know getting back into the office and having so many days that you're there in your very present experience in higher levels of turnover those who are more willing to engage are seeing a more engaged workforce there's their hearing feedback from their workforce that they feel more valued and I think in particular we're hearing a lot of feedback that employers are I have a lot of members who are perhaps in the twilight stages of their careers so they've you know they've been around for a long while and as Ross spoke to the you know the perpetual cycle of crisis that they were in right now I've got a lot of members who you know have been doing business for you know 30 years and they are now you know dealing with that a younger generation who are entered in the labour market who are saying well you know why would you not give me flexible working you know we have we have proved consistently that you know we can do this why why is this not an option and again there's a real kind of compromise that has to be made in the middle between different mindsets and I think that's something that we are still transitioning in or from post Covid because we're still testing the waters if I'm being honest you know we're we're still trying to work out what good looks like when it comes to best practice and kind of experience of both directors and employers but we're also needing to recognise what doesn't work and talk about why that doesn't work so that we can create you know a more equal environment for people to explore options for them I think you just have to look at you know recent coverage around the likes of you know we work and zoom so zoom have kind of you know very publicly that there is an irony there about an online platform encouraging people back into the office but you know what does that actually mean when they've got you know people in you know across the world who work on international timescales I know myself I had an issue with my zoom account about six months ago and I had to speak to somebody who you know could only speak to me at certain times of the day because they were you know working internationally so how does that work when you've got clients that you're dealing with you know across the globe so I think right now we're seeing that that transition start but it's going to take a while to settle into this and to really understand what you know this new world of working looks like and the effect that it's had longer term on on both the workforce and and leaders and Ross what does that mean for the trade union movement are you looking at different priorities and in some ways the you know is there you're in a tight labour market does that present opportunities for trade unions or does it make workers more individualistic it's they can call the shots more directly with an employer why do you need a union to do it the employer is so desperate for people if you've got the skills you know what you're looking for you can do it yourself well I think there are pros and cons with a tight labour market it certainly makes when workers come together it makes it slightly easier for them to get a win sometimes but you know for even in a tight labour market for a lot of individuals the idea that you can go in and self-negotiate is is still something that you know is not a reality for most workers and you know there's a real kind of a lot of these things work for people who are doing well already so even with the flexible working and the homeworking that's all great if you have a big house you've got a spare room that you can use as an office or you can build an office in your garden you're not sitting in your one bedroom flat using your ironing board on your couch to try and do your job you know so and there are issues around fuel bills at a time when fuel is really high some employers really have said oh well we don't need an office anymore you can all work from home you know so actually it's not just about employers pulling people back into the office there's actually real issues about people being made to work at home with not a fit workstation that could cause all sorts of issues for them further down the line with not a good working environment where they can excel and do well and and get the support they need so a lot of what we've been negotiating as trade unions is quite complex it's about getting a good hybrid working model it's about making sure that a worker who needs a workstation to do their job in the office will still be able to access a good workstation if that's their preference but equally if they can do their job at home that they're going to get the right support to be able to do that at home and coming up with hybrid models and that takes a bit of negotiation it takes consulting with your workforce properly to find out what people's needs are and giving workers a bit of choice is that taking place it's our employers yeah that's exactly what we are the bargaining agenda that at the moment for many many employers there's no one-size-fits all here it's it's quite a complex landscape and equally you're absolutely right there are organizing challenges for trade unions for where employers have said you know we can go to a home working model for a lot of younger workers coming into the workplace that's quite isolating you're not picking up a lot of the training and things you would get you might never meet the union rep or get asked to join the union or get to go to a union meeting because you might just not find out about it so it's really important that unions are thinking about making sure that their recognition agreements and access agreements are up to speed that they have the right to digitally access the workforce make some sort of contact with people through the employer's digital framework and infrastructure we've seen some great examples of unions you know using apps with individual self-employed workers to create communities and and collectives we've seen some fantastic examples of you know huge the national education union had a meeting in 2022 that had over a hundred thousand participants online in a big massive sort of zoom call you know so we're finding that a lot of these digital options are giving us a level of connectivity and collectivism that we that we would find very hard to replicate physically but I would also say you can't beat workers just talking to workers and people having real conversations with each other when it comes to organising a collective so we've got real challenges but I think we need to be prepared to use technology creatively to our ends as well in order to support collectivising give workers that that power to be able to get what they need out of their employer I'm just coming back to the issue of you know we've had healthcare workers on strike recently and that's the first time again probably in my working life that you can think you've had frontline healthcare workers prepared to go on strike compared to take ballots on that and you've had a reaction from the UK government that is talking about restricting which professions can can take strike action and do you think I think I know the answer you're going to give me but do you think they have a case there that if people you know are waiting times in hospitals are long enough as it is and then people are going to have their appointments cancelled or whatever or they can't get treatment is there a case that there's some workers who there should be more there are very hard restrictions on them should there be more restrictions on them or do you think the balance is in the right place I might be asked Patricia yeah I mean there this is the the the UK Tory government have a very well worn playbook of how they deal with trade unions they try to just vilify them and create division among working people and paint us as the the bad guys so to speak and this is a very cynical attempt the actual legislation itself there are already in every emergency service and in hospitals and everywhere that you can imagine where there needs to be life and limb cover for people there are already copious amount of negotiations that go on whenever there's an industrial action to make sure that nobody's ever going to come to any harm in our key essential public services it's always been that way numerous and it'd be good to hear the ILO's view on on the UK legislation actually if if Dr Pills is is familiar with it because you know numerous international organisations have said this is completely unnecessary and will achieve nothing and really it's about the UK government trying to vilify trade unions but ultimately it's about putting another hurdle and another barrier in the way of the right to strike this is one of the hardest countries in the world to be able to take legal industrial action the level of ballots and turnout that you have to achieve in order to democratically show that you have a mandate to take industrial action are already you know the bar is very very high every time they set it higher workers get over that bar because when when workers feel they've been unjustly treated they will get round any barrier in order to be able to to act together if they feel strongly enough so all it is about is costing trade unions more money making us jump through more hoops making it harder to be able to operate and ultimately it's about trying to take away people's right to strike and if we don't have the right to strike we are fundamentally slaves and I don't want to live in a country that treats us like that the Scottish government's made it clear thankfully that they completely disagree with this legislation and I think any civilised country wouldn't want to be moving away from people having the fundamental human right to withdraw their labour and take industrial action and sadly we've got a UK government that's talking about walking away from human rights acts and everything else so we're in a very very disturbing and concerning place when it comes to some of the UK government's policies at the moment take away a right to strike take away a right to protest what you left with. I was going to bring Patricia in but I'll maybe see if Dr Peele's would want to respond to Roz and how you see the UK government relations in terms of trade union legislation and then I'm going to open up to questions from the audience. Yeah thank you for that on the particular UK case I do not know that sufficiently in detail to comment on that but indeed like there is the right of industrial action, the right to strike and we see that in many countries in the world one way to undermine that right is by excluding particular type of jobs of group of workers from that right based on the argument of having an essential service that has to that has to continue so even in times of strikes so that that's kind of I think a common strategy to undermine that right with which we of course certainly do not agree and we have a supervisory mechanism of the ILO which provides opinions which interprets legislations, government actions in light to which extent that violates for instance the international labor standards or the ILO standard on that topic so that's a whole yeah a whole bunch of data where we can go through so that we can always look at that after the facts. I think it's also just from a democratic perspective I think of what Roz referred to. I think it is industrial action is key it is a basic condition of a democracy given the expression for much association so I think it's important that we see that that's right. I think also talking about care workers a little bit to the point that I made before I think during COVID-19 I think everybody realised how essentially that that job is particularly in the context of COVID-19 in terms of all the working conditions I think in that perspective there is also a positive attitude and public perception that everybody accepts or there is a kind of an openness to what's in this sort of action in that sector at the moment. I've been taking notes while the colleagues were talking but maybe I don't think that is. Thank you, thank you. I'll now take questions from the audience. If you put your hand up somebody can bring you a mic or if your voice carries enough we could just do that and if you keep your questions concise we can get as many people in as we as I can. I'll take you first then I'll take you. Yeah thank you very much. I want to say thanks so much for the contributions so far. I just want to hopefully mention something that's not been mentioned in this talk is about disabled workers because I've got autism I'm a disabled worker and I think this is something that's lost in sometimes conversations with unions and stuff like that is how do we support disabled workers especially people who let myself who try and assert very quality at 2010 rights for like these my adjustments and things like that and we have to go through like a lot of hoops and we've got to go through a lot of very difficult and very inaccessible like access to justice for ourselves to get access to that and I'm just wondering how can we assert our rights how can we basically how can we disabled people come together in unity and come collectively to really to do something about that because right now if you look at for example statistics of people who have autism I've got autism myself who are in employment it's only about three to eight percent and and the thing and that's quite a shocking and then you've got the trade unions and and you've got and I've seen within within like like the working place and I'll even go quite far as to say some unions is that we don't understand about people with autism we don't understand people with disabilities we can't understand people with social hidden difficulties who find difficult to articulate themselves or cannot able to understand that because we don't they just don't see that we don't really see and we cannot navigate that and they don't and it's about that it's about the unconscious biases of some union organisers who sometimes that is caused within that and how do we fundamentally make the unionised the unions and union organisers and staff members be able to accept people with autism accept people with that and understand and not just go understand but also to go to the point of empathising with them and actually go to understand them and take them along on that journey because the thing is I think that that we need to bring everyone every single person with us in the journey to to basically to workers justice and I think that that is so important and I just want to say thank you so much for listening to me thank you I'll bring I'll do a short plug for the committee's work that we did a short piece of work earlier this year on disability employment gap and we're committed to coming to look again at that later in the year at the moment the government have a ambitious commitment to close that gap but if we continue at the pace we're going we're not going to close the gap and you're right that you know we've talked about a tight labour market as well we needed as many people in employment as we can get employment and there are people who are being left and not getting opportunities when they should be but Ross do you want to come up with points about trade unions and yeah absolutely I think that you've made some really really key points there and you know trade unions certainly aren't perfect we're like all other parts of society and often I go with the we're as good as our local reps and so it's up to us to train our local reps to be excellent if you know what I mean and to have awareness and to support them to access the the information they need one of the things that the stuc and many unions do is they have self representative structures for for different impacted groups and at the stuc we have a disabled workers conference committee and a network and that actually proved really really important during the pandemic because we made a conscious decision we had a group of trade unionists that were meeting at ministerial level with government on a weekly basis to raise issues that workers were being affected by out there in the front line and it was it was a constant dialogue of raising issues with the government so that they got a true picture of some of the stuff that was going on in the ground and some of the issues and actually our disabled worker committee members played a huge role on that for for very obvious reasons you know and picking up some of the specific problems that workers with disabilities were a whole range of different disabilities were facing with you know with home working with when when the restrictions started to get lifted with coming back out into the community and a whole range of things that you know we wouldn't have picked up on if we hadn't had those structures I don't think as effectively as as we were it was able to give voice to some of those and also for our members who have disabilities who participate in those structures it's a very safe place where they can do a deep dive into a lot of the issues so the the disabled workers conference will meet for like two and a half days and and debate a whole range of policy issues and then they they can take those policies into the stuc's mainstream policy they have seats on our general council etc so we do try to set up structures that enable us to to really go deep into those areas and take those views on board but you know absolutely we're not perfect we need to continually train we need to continually be aware of best practice and that's not just for the the area of disabilities but it's also around you know gender age and sexuality a whole range of areas where we have to make sure that we're representing all groups and we have to understand the way intersectionality around equality issues works and that there are some people who have a much harder time than others and part of that is about the the experience that they have in society because of being from a more disadvantaged group because patricia do you feel that the fair work agenda is inclusive and often does it recognise the kind of issues that um that ross was talking about or is it just like in one site at the moment it's is it too narrowly focused at the moment is it not at all so i think that you know when we talk about fair work in scotland we we talk about work that offers opportunity security respect fulfilment and effective voice that's our that's our mantra our five dimensions and that opportunity piece is really important and it means that everything we do we look at in relation to not just how workers as a whole experience it but how distinct categories particularly people with protected characteristics but also beyond that how do how do people experience the workplace and when we start to look at the kind of jobs that people have and the access to quality work that people have we know that it's very varied we know that it's varied by sex we know that it's varied by viability and disability we know it's varied by social class so in all of those areas the challenge that we have is to identify where the real problem is and think about what leverage you have to try and address that problem so i think i completely agree with ross trade unions reflect and both are capable of disrupting the society we're in but they reflect everything that the wider society does it took a long time for trade unions to recognise in the right way i guess the needs of women workers or part time workers you know there's a learning process there we know that the disability employment gap in scotland is is high we know that for people with particular disabilities it's really high and at a time when you have a very tight labour market and when you know that the consequences of good employment for people's lives are really hugely positive getting people into the labour market into decent jobs not into poor jobs becomes absolutely crucial so in everything that the convention tries to do we try and disaggregate the things that we're interested in to say how is that impacting on somebody who has a particular type of condition how is it impacting on somebody with a particular protected characteristic we know that that varies a lot across occupations so we know that people with disabilities can manage in some occupations than not or no others my own research team because i do have a day job other than the fair work convention um my own research team did some work recently on people with epilepsy and what was really interesting about that was there's a terrible disability employment gap for people with epilepsy and and it's inconsistent with the symptom profile of people with epilepsy but what became really clear was a some people got very good help from their trade unions they got good support from equality reps but what was also clear was that employers had a different view of people who were coming into the organisation than people who were already in the organisation so if you were somebody who had who developed epilepsy once you were in as an adult perhaps as a result of a brain injury or a stroke perhaps your ability to get reasonable adjustments often informally rather than formally was much higher than when you were coming in so employers had a different type of attitude that when they didn't know what a disability was like or they didn't know the person they were much less likely to be able to respond positively positively to that now that's where things like having fair work having equality reps trade union equality reps who can do have those sorts of discussions having union case workers who again across the length and breadth of the country i see it in my own union i see it in my own institution in my own sector have the conversations about what are the specific needs of this person this member of staff with a disability not the generic ones so what is it that the employer can do and is is legally obliged to do to make it possible for that person to engage in work to the in the same terms so opportunity and making sure that work is fair for everybody not as some homogeneous mass but in the categories and and with the characteristics that we know that people have that's absolutely central to what we want to deliver in fair work in scotland and we know ross talked about intersectionality on terms of fair work data we know that poor job quality characteristics bunch around the people who have particular characteristics we know for example that the the biggest single stratifying issue in the labour market as to whether or not you access good work or not is social class it's not protected characteristic but it is something that massively changes your experience with the world of work so understanding the sort of nuances of that and the patterns of that is really really important and understanding the trends of that because the panel have talked about you were afail's talked about kathens talked about ross has talked about precarious work new forms of work a lot of those new forms of work are drawing in people who have dissed who have other disadvantage and precarious work doesn't make that better often makes it worse so that that issue around how we understand our particular citizens to be able to experience work is absolutely central to what we want to do thank you and would you like to have a question then I could have indications for any other questions thanks very much thanks very much I was just going to go back a little bit to covid because I think covid changed quite a lot and one of the sort of positive things about covid if you can say such a thing was the light that it shone on workers conditions for one thing and also the state of public services so you know you couldn't go from sort of heroes to villains I mean the public weren't having it and it sort of struck me how many times people have been interviewed when they've been trained strikes all sorts of things you know situations in which people are really inconvenienced and they still often say but I support the right of these people to it and I see why they're doing it and I think that is really positive I think that's like a new direction and you know it does strike me like that the unions have are performing a kind of political role with a small p in shining a light on the kind of inequalities and also you know what's happening with the sort of privatisation the sort of rolling I don't think people were entirely you know familiar with sort of what's been going on you'll hardly find anybody now who's not up to date with what's happening to public services and so you know it may be that for all the inconvenience people see that you know they're holding a line that needs to be there the only people who are holding that line thank you thank you um Patricia do you want to do a bit of public perception and there as well do you say because everywhere in this room is politically motivated and interested that's why they're here is that reflective off I think it's true that that's reflective of society has there been a shift in the way in which people see government or see the relationship with trade unions or yeah I'm going to steal Catherine's work here it's a spectrum isn't it but I completely agree with it with the person posing the question because when you see a vox pop of an industrial dispute you're much more likely now to see somebody saying well the workers and they're fighting for the rights so you're much more likely to see that kind of response and maybe in the past you would have seen a little bit less of that I think the other point that you made which is crucially important is um and it's always difficult to see that there were any bright lights from Covid but certainly an understanding of what constitutes essential work um was something that became very clear and it wasn't always closely correlated with high level work it was often it was the people who who drove buses it was the people who worked in retail that made sure you could get your get you know you could get provisions even if they were a bit awry and disrupted for a while so that kind of whole thing around I suppose what we broadly call a foundational economy the stuff that we really really need to carry on I think it's shone a very strong light on that I think it also um you know that we had the whole thing about Clapham for the NHS and of course we should do that but I think it also opened up what the nature of those jobs were like so there's some really good characteristics of working for the NHS in Scotland in the UK it has some very positive elements to it some really really challenging job characteristics as well and I think that people are now more um more open to and aware of what doing those jobs were like and why it matters if they're not there um and you know I'm a professor in a university if I sat in my house for a year and sat on zoom would a lot of people notice a little a little bit but not the same as if you don't have a delivery driver taking stuff to test school or you don't have you can't get access to a consultant in the NHS or you don't have a nurse to see in the NHS so I think it did slide it disrupted a lot of things I think in a good way that allowed us to think about what were the demands on people what did their jobs look like and so when we moved a very short period of time onwards and we're having discussions about whether or not we can afford to pay healthcare workers you know that that creates a bit of a chasm in people's understanding I think well wait a minute we were we were applauding them we know they're very important just coming back to just before we we went to questions in that context I think people support foundational economy workers to do what they're doing and if that's arguing for better pay and better conditions they support that interestingly if you look at the difference between Scotland and England against not a political point the NHS in Scotland has not had the strikes that you've had in the NHS in England and the reason for that is not that somehow the Scottish NHS is awash with money it's because it has the most developed form of trade union employer partnership in the UK it's been around for over 20 years it took a lot of work to invest in it it is invested in heavily in the sense that people commit very heavily to having dialogue at every level of the NHS as an organisation from the very bottom to the very top and that allows them to be in a position that notwithstanding the real resource challenges on the NHS and the accelerating demand on it people are able to have a conversation about how you keep the lights on how you keep the service running and I think that's quite a strong contrast at the current period of time between what's happening in the rest of the UK and that is about well established forms of social partnership as as Raphael mentioned well established forms of dialogue the willingness to compromise and to say well we'd like a bit more of this or a bit less of that that trade unions do every day that's where you see it in operation and I think maybe people understand that a bit better now than they did previously um the the question over here my name's Finlay I'm the deputy convener of Scottish youth parliament's jobs economy fair work committee and I was wondering what you've thought of the outlook for young people's involvement in union membership when it's currently quite low rates particularly for those under 25 under 21s how do you deal with young people often entering the workforces either having little knowledge of their right to unionise or thinking that when when they've got an experience where stable employment is a bit of a pipe dream then seeing how our unions relevant to them and how can they benefit them thank you I think that we're on a journey and I can see lots of seeds of hope actually and I'm quite optimistic about future generations of young people getting involved in trade unions because young people who are in secondary schools across Scotland right now have seen their teachers take collective action and take strike action and you know that affected their daily lives but they also and you know had introduced the concept of what a union is and does they saw those teachers get a good deal at the end of that the young people in our universities are seeing their lecturers coming together and taking action and fighting back against injustice and in many cases we're seeing young people young students out there you know participating and supporting those those university staff and actually participating in that fight back so I think young people are a bit more politicised these days even when you look you know I've got two teenage daughters there's a lot of politics on things like TikTok and all that and a lot of it is around you know some of the issues you know some of its environmental issues but a lot of it is about social justice issues and I think trade unions have got a real opportunity at the moment we have undoubtedly been given a platform really it relates to some of what you were saying as well since Covid people were ignoring trade unions it's not that trade union leaders like myself weren't spitting out the press releases every week morning about the economy and everything else we were we were talking about nationalisation of our key public services we were talking about workers getting a fairer share of the economy we've never went away but the difference is that the the mainstream media has sat up and taken notice now we only have that platform because workers have got together on the ground and taken action and it's affected the economy and it's affected people's lives but I feel that we have been able to shift the narrative and actually challenge the current economic climate for years and years in the UK you couldn't argue with the neoliberal economic policies you couldn't argue with it all better off if you just leave it to the market and I think post Covid we've been able to articulate a very effective argument that actually you do need rich people to pay tax into the system you do need workers to get a fairer share of the economy you need public services that are well resourced and and that is how you create a well-being economy and you know you need your essential services like water electricity gas these things shouldn't be about making profits for the private sector or billionaires at the top of our economy so all of these things we've been able to articulate last year pre-budget the stuc was able to set the narrative around that budget the the media narrative around a debate about taxation progressive taxation and how the Scottish government could raise £3.2 billion more revenue within their current powers if they chose to and we're now seeing some of that coming into fruition we've got you know let's see what comes out of this budget but we've got a proper panel of experts being brought together to actually look at some of that work that needs to be done to redistribute wealth in our economy so it is the the industrial action that's taking place got results but it's also I think going to far spreading ripples and one of those ripples for me is going to be young people now do have a better understanding about trade unions are because we're in the media more because we're we're taking action and winning in institutions that young people use so I'm I'm pretty hopeful I haven't seen the amount of young people that are engaging positively with our agenda I think that you know have great faith in future generations of trade unionists carrying forward the torch and winning for workers and then doctor peels do you want to yeah it's your hand up do you want to comment on a family's question yeah maybe i'm dead one and I couldn't agree nor it was I think if unions still want to be relevant tomorrow there's really urgent we need to organize young workers and we talked previously about trade union membership we know that trade union membership in the age cohort of 55 to 65 is much higher than among young workers so knowing that trade union membership is already going down knowing that this age cohort that is highly unionized is going to retire soon and be replaced by a new cohort that is much lower in unionization that will strengthen the speakers of pressure on trade union membership and I think for this key it's not only to organize this work but also making sure that young workers have a voice in the whole internal governance of the union and also that the whole repertoire of action the whole not only agenda setting and the ways of working unions also reflect this interest of the workers we I think Ros mentioned youngsters are interested in social justice and I think that's true we know that that youngsters are interested in the contents of unionism but not necessarily in the way of doing things by union so I think that is really a chance I'm not necessarily saying that you should do it differently but at least or communicate that message better or relate in a way to and the topics and the ways of framing things and the way of speaking that can be through apps and digital services talking about the topics that they care about and non-social justice but also just transition sexual identity etc so just a little addition to that okay thank you and have other questions over here thank you my name is wendy I was just wondering there's a lot of talk about membership and thinking from a younger perspective not my generation but what you were saying I just wondered if networks was more the thing rather than joining and becoming a member in that something a structure that can be fluid and that you could come in and out of something I work in the arts and I know that we followed a model where we wanted to join networks and the sign up for the networks was so much more than if we set ourselves up as a membership because it was about who you identified with at a given moment and I just wonder if some of the trade union language and structure particularly the language and perception is a bit analog a lot of it reminds me of the 70s it's solid it's good but I'm not sure that I think it's perpetetic and you know you might identify with it at some point and then perhaps just sit back a little bit but come back again with something else if it allows you to do that in terms of the perception so you know I think networks can be a lot more attractive than a membership and I know you need money but networks can also bring in money so Ross do you want to respond to that because you mentioned the unite hospitality campaign earlier and that was a union going into an area where people it was younger people a lot of what was transition in their work but they weren't unionised it was a really good campaign I couldn't agree more with you I think that we have to adapt to survive as trade unions and you know it's getting that balance right you don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater you know a lot of our democratic structures and things have been around for a long long time they they do seem quite archaic and very traditional but they kind of work to create policy and you know do debate and come out with an outcome at the end of it that everyone can get behind and we are democratic institutions so how we develop our policy how we take forward decisions about to accept a pay offer or not accept a pay offer some of these things are quite clunky for kind of like for a reason if you know what I mean and quite slow but for a reason democratic organisations always find making being agile quite tricky but I do agree that you know we've seen some really good innovation take place we've seen in some industries where we have a high level of self-employment or or workers that are sort of freelance and things like that we've seen some really good use of things like apps for industry-wide agreements and things like that actually globally there was a huge strike action again Dr Pills might know more about this than me but I believe one of the biggest industrial actions that have taken place in recent years happened in India among women domestic workers and a lot of it was done by mobile phone and app and people literally voting yes or no through their app there was lots of different workers employed by lots of different small employers but they came together in a huge way so there's some really interesting stuff out there United Hospitality have got some really interesting models as well where they're able to support people to stay in membership because they're they've got big service sector branches that've got the funds to be able to support people whether they're in or out of work and they've kind of come to ways of fudging around the traditional union rules to build their membership to support young people and to keep you know building even though people could be in and out of work and going to different places so I think we have to be open to that we have to keep like for the STUC as well this year we're going to be doing a review of all of our democratic structures and events because we think that they need to be modernised we need to make sure they're inclusive we need to make sure they're reflecting best practice and we kind of need to make sure that if somebody walks into the room for the first time to participate that they're not going to get put off by a whole range of jargon and language that takes you 10 years of being a trade union activist to learn how to play the game so there's all of that that I think we should constantly challenge yourself with and you know to me it is that that old adage of we've got to adapt and evolve to survive and be most effective and that's what we're there for is to do a good job for working people and win for them win for workers thank you any other questions what might you do is take the two questions one after the other and let the panel because we're getting a wee bit shorter time but I'll take both yeah I'm slightly covered it a wee bit already but I was wondering if you could just speak a wee bit more to the the sort of spectrum of public support for industrial action across different sectors for example nurses and other NHS workers generally a lot of public support for that but then when you go across to say teachers for example like my cousin's a teacher she said she felt herself a lot of opposition in general whether it was parents or just whoever I think maybe last year as well this time last year when we had the strikes for the the bin men um there was a I also felt like talking to my colleagues and stuff there was much less support for industrial action in those sectors so I suppose I'm just asking about kind of I suppose it's a problem of communication again maybe and just the sort of the difficulties and the opportunities for sort of overcoming that and so on thank you and if I get the question from the lady at the back and then we'll get responses and these will be that unless anybody else if you want another question put your hand up now these will be the last two um so I absolutely agree I think there's a place for trade unions and workers rights I really just wanted to ask a question based on reference to the NHS I think rent reference should be to care workers because there's a whole raft of workers that are going to get higher and higher in our sense of need as a population as the demographic age increases um so I think the question that I would like to ask is how do we ensure that we have a societal conversation about the workers we value and what they should be paid and how do we continue to ensure a fair relativity to the value of different jobs across our society that we think that we need in the future where do the trade unions sit with that and effectively it's the next generation of fair work in policy terms thank you thank you that's a big question to end with but when we start with so we're at both questions up but public perception and we know that in hollywood the writers are about to go and strike if people aren't going to see their favorite tv program they might start to lose sympathy in that area but they are going on strike because of concerns about the changing environment about about ai and about a threat that they see coming down to their livelihood but Patricia do you want to come in first and maybe respond to the women at the back about how do we see a fair society how do we reward work appropriately and what do we value so I think connecting the two questions and maybe the question prior to that I think this is what runs through all of those questions is an issue about public debate and public consciousness the extent to which we have a public debate about workers about the provision of services about what resources are and aren't available and how those resources are distributed so I think that's a it's a higher level debate about the kind of society that we want to be and what decisions we have to take and what actions we have to take to be that society so so coming back to our colleague over there's question we want young people to be having the conversations about whether or not whether or not you should organise in a particular way whether the form of organisation is right for you whether it's attractive for you I do think we have an awareness gap in some of these areas around not just fair work which we think is an aspiration way beyond minimum entitlements but about basic rights that people have at work I think a lot of people are not necessarily very well informed about their own basic rights and I think we do need to really raise the level of public debate about the kind of society that we want to be and how we deliver that and that and that means trying to come back to your question trying to bring an awful lot of people with you who might start from if you're a parent trying to put your children into school in the morning and the teachers are on strike and you're really concerned about that because actually your boss is not very nice and he or she is not great if you're absent and you're dealing with your challenging work while you're trying to cope with some other work-life balance issues so it's a sort of trying to open up those conversations whereby improving the level of decent work quality for all of us actually improves you know it has impacts across the board and I think that debate is really important it's really important about where our priorities are so when you're you're correct to talk about the importance of not just health workers but care workers we have health and social care integration in Scotland we're supposed to treat the two sectors in the same way but it is self-evident that we don't it's very different to be a care worker than it is to work in the NHS there are huge differences in terms of the experiences of work in both of those sectors and in part it is to do with the fact that social care is a mixed economy of public, private and third sector providers and the NHS is entirely publicly funded and publicly provided so therefore the level of trade union organisation and partnership within that is much more extensive but it is about having the discussion upfront not pretending that we can hide behind the fact that social care looks slightly different to health and leave the burden of that and the burden of the increasing demand for social care on the back of what are generally poorly paid women workers that's we have to have that debate and it comes back to the point Rosnade earlier and we have to recognise the consequences of that debate if that means that we don't pay for some things and we pay for other we should be having that discussion publicly if that means that we need to raise tax for some people and not for others to be able to deliver that that's the conversation we should be having we can't we can't do these things without being upfront and clear about the consequences of them and I think that a far better civic consciousness and civic engagement with the world of work would be really important one of the things that's been really interesting about fair work and we're a tiny convention with not you know with the reach that the best reach that we can deliver but one of the things that's really interesting is we don't have a lot of public policy on the workplace in the UK we don't have a lot of law and legislation and we're a quite lightly regulated labour market but we should be having a debate about what happens in the workplace because it is crucially important to the quality of the rest of our lives so that debate about the workplace I think is is facilitated by us saying you're entitled to fair work you're not just entitled to minimum standards you're a young person you should know what fair work is and you should know that you're entitled to ask your employer to deliver it so I think it's that level of debate that we really need to push up to try and get a more a broader civic consensus about how we make what are undoubtedly quite tough decisions thank you Patricia and Dr Peele as I've become to you now for the reflection on the last couple of questions but also any closing remarks and I'm wondering if having listened to the discussion we've had here in this room this afternoon if this is typical of discussions that are taking place across Europe for example countries that are similar to us are they having the same kind of discussions about trade union relationships and how we prioritise our public spending and how we sustain our resources yes so that's probably quite a lot to ask at the end yeah I know maybe maybe I stick to one so yeah you choose what you're coming yeah I'm taking something together what Ross mentioned the words of Patricia I think in a context of a lot of change and uncertainty and multiple prices and this will keep on coming we say we have to organise better young works but also so we go with visibility we have to take a stance on just transition technology so this will never this will never stop as I know we have been doing some exercises we can use in strategic foresight where we really try to look long term and what are the big trends and drivers of change and the new perfections technological change between now and 20 years what does that mean for the labour market and with that freedom so I think that is an interesting exercise that brings me a little bit to the point of Patricia it's an overall political decision on what type of society we want to have I'm working for the ILO where everything we do is negotiated with also with governments from all over the world so not only the more unlikely of governments who may have a kind of more open stance towards fair work but also more conservative or critical governments in other parts of the world on a diversity topic but also with the private sector and I think there are really clear interests in society so it's really tough to get to that consensus if I see on every type of document we try to adapt you have had a longstanding debate for instance on living wage to make sure that kind of minimum wage is the wage that arises to live in peace and even there their business private sector has a very critical stance in that so on every topic that we discuss I think it is it is really at the at the fight I think so it is true it's question to find the consensus in society but it's also reflection of clear interests and diverging interests in society and the reason why we end up with a lot of diverse types of work that is also a concrete I think strategy to undermine the whole body of existing legislation that we have been able to develop over over multiple decades so anyway as a political scientist I wanted to make a political statement that this product consensus is also a clear reflection of interests and values in societies and maybe that also then explains a little bit what is the perception around unions and but also around broader institutions and government etc in the world and the work so I don't know if I respond to your question and I don't know if this is actually helping but yeah that's great thank you thank you very much and Catherine if anybody come to you for any closing comments I mean the session is called workers rights who cares does institute of directors care do your members care about workers rights you've talked about a spectrum and arrange but the big challenges that have been discussed this afternoon you represent SMEs is this relevant to SMEs this discussion yes absolutely it is because SMEs are exactly the businesses that are struggling to find the talent and the skills that they need to fill the gaps that they've got when they're looking at growth and development so absolutely this is a discussion that needs to happen more and more and more across sector across industry you know trade unions is one aspect of it but actually when you look at you know fair work in the round you know we did our state of the nation survey we do it every year with our members we asked about fair work principles and half of our members reported that they didn't know what they were now that that's a problem and the irony is when you start to talk to people on an individual basis they're like oh yeah we do that oh yeah but but it's it's the language that they don't get it so I think conversations like this are critical and just in terms of kind of my own kind of thoughts and comments aside from being in awe of my fellow pan lists and just how incredible they are it's a really turbulent environment right now and we're all navigating it in our own way and I think we talk about engagement but we need to go that step further it's not just about engagement it's about collaboration and dialogue because that's how we take that step forward that we need to thank you very much Catherine and Rose do you have any final comments or reflections on this afternoon's discussion yeah and I think just relating back to the the final questions about public support and perception and and and how aware the public are of the the big issues going on and and how they get behind workers and and also about that care question I mean for me social dialogue is all very well but being in the room isn't enough 10 years of the Scottish government has shown us that we've had access up to arrivals we're in every conversation we're consulted to the ends of the earth they like to have a fair work minister they like to talk about the well-being economy they like to talk about a just transition but to get real results for real workers on the ground like your care workers you know we did as I sit on the the fair work convention we did our report four years ago telling them what they had to do to value the women workers who work in care and we've still seen zilch in terms of a serious collective bargaining model for that sector and a serious valuing of those workers even though it's predominantly public sector funded and the reality is nothing worth fighting for is ever given power is never ceded unless we really really do get together and fight for it so democracies are all about power big business has huge power they fund political parties they fund newspapers in the media they exercise power in hidden ways but we the people have massive power as well and trade unions are one of the most effective vehicles the working class has to exercise the power and create real change in society and win a fairer share of the economy and the wealth that exists the plentiful wealth that exists in our economy for ordinary working people and sometimes that causes inconvenience but that is on us to get out there and organise and build political awareness and that happens community by community workplace by workplace we have so much we need to do but you know it is worth fighting for and i believe that we can make a real difference when we come together we fight back and we make demands of the people in power thank you thank you very much that was a great reality check from rhods at the end because i think every here in the room does value trade unions and do think they're still important but there are still battles to be won and nothing is is one easy it is a it is often a struggle and so thank you everybody for coming on this afternoon and thank you to Raphael to Patricia to Roz and Catherine for leading the discussion and for all their answering questions this afternoon there is a survey that if you booked via event right i think the survey will be sent to you but there's also some paper copies here if you can take time to fill them in that would help us very much and there are some more festival events today and tomorrow i don't know if you've managed to catch other things over the last few days and there's one today at half five on radical uses for scotland's land i think there's also a culture one this evening i did have a meeting with the festivals director this morning and she's come along to take part in that so yeah hopefully you'll be able to come to other things but just thank you once again for attending this one i hope you've found it interesting and we'd welcome your feedback thank you very much