Hello everybody! If it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer. In fact, it must be the final Warhammer Wednesday, Warhammer Weekly of 2021. Joining me yet again, we've brought the whole family together to send 2021 on its merry way. Just get out of here, you awful year. We were just complaining for like 10 minutes about the whole of a week. Tom and I have had... It's been an awful week and end to an awful year. Here we are. Just the worst. The worst. But that's alright.  And in the end, it can't be that bad, right? Yeah, that's still pretty good. Tyler, on the other hand, had a pretty good week. A very good week. Today, we're going to talk about a little bit of 2021 retrospective. Tyler's going to lead that segment. This is Tyler's segment. He said I want to do this and I was like, cool. Tyler's going to lead that portion of the show. And then we're doing our 2022 prediction spectacular. That's right. Get them tinfoil hats ready, folks, because it's time to get wild. Alright, first off the news and it's Tyler's week. Tom is the guest this week. That's how this works. This week, Tyler's the coach for Tom. Hello, Brad. Very confusing. Rumor engine. The first thing that went through my head, a scaven whip. Is this what scaven whips look like, Vince Venturella? It is not. He just said I'm very quiet, okay? That's fine. Okay. Just a smidge too quiet. I'm going to fix that. Let's see if that's any better. Tell me if that's better, everybody. No, it is not what a scaven whip looks like, although it could be. I would be fine with it. Is this better, folks? Are we any better? I don't know. You tell me. I assume I sound normal to you guys. It's always you guys I completely sound normal to and hear you normal. That's fine. It does feel more like a daughter's cane whip is my honest answer. I think it feels like a dark elf whip. Okay. Like a malaria and dark elves whip, which maybe I'm maybe I'm spoiling where I think we're going this year. But yeah, I think it's I think it's a dark outfit. Yeah, it's too clean. It's too nice for a for something scaven like there's intentional and bladed. Yeah. Let us not forget that dark elves like to put blades on everything, including their lunchboxes. This is true. This is true. That's a real thing in Warhammer total war, the dark elf like lunchboxes had blades on them. I have this. I don't know if they ever have like if there's a pattern to be discovered with the opening salvo and their texts, you know, like this week it was a room arrangement twisted into horrifying new form by the runous powers of chaos. Behold this glorious and untainted new image so therefore you're led to think that this is a chaos something chaos probably. It's always just nonsense. That's what I forget. Don't be fooled by them. They're tricking you. Yeah, I like your call. Honestly, by the way, I hope this sounds better. I adjusted the sound up. I moved the mic around a little. That's a little better. My answer is I like your what we're getting into here, whether we were daughters, or whether we were. How could this be? I kept the exact same settings in this program. From week to week, I've changed nothing. I even have the spot marked where I put my mic now. Nothing changed. Well, I did reset my entire computer. That was part of my crappy week. So I had to lose everything on my computer, but it retained the settings because OBS is obviously online. I don't know folks. Here we go. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know, man. It's clearly a whip though. It is a whip. Yes. All right. Cool. What else we got? Yeah. Yeah, Dana, maybe Jukari, Aideneth, maybe, but yeah, something. We have an inordinately exciting battle box is coming out that really has the entire community jazzed. These two factions, Fireslayers and Aideneth. I got on TGA.community and just miles and rainbows. Everybody was nothing but thrilled about the combination of IDK and Fireslayers, right? Yup. Yup. I'm gonna sell like hotcakes. Yeah. So we have the usual pattern of one new hero per faction. Throne Master is going to help. Which I have said this is my prediction about how AOS releases are going to be going for a while. I don't think we're going to get much in the way of big model revamps until we like, you know, maybe later in the year. I'm saying it's the one new hero in a box type of thing. That's what I'm saying. It feels like a kind of refresher type of year. Yeah, where battle boxes, new battle tones, that sort of thing, but we'll get into all that. Yeah. Tom, what do you think of the fire? What's this guy called? A flame keeper, I think? Man, I wish I could share my screen because I would share the frigging meme of like this next to the Ruin Smiter and be like, they're the same model.  So, yeah, it's, I mean, it's fine. You know what we needed? We needed a 14th foot hero. That's what we needed. We had 13 and 13, not just not enough. We needed a 14th. I just... Troops, right? It's still three. The number hasn't changed in a few years. Right. Three basic types. Yeah, there's three basic foot troops. There's no monsters that aren't heroes. There are no anything.  It's just like... It's all about it more when we get to predictions, but... It's so depressing. It's so depressing. It is what it is. You know what I mean? Like, it's fire slayers and IDK. So, okay. Yeah. We took the least popular faction in the game right now and tried to hook them to something that people generally like in hopes that it will sell some of the fire slayer stuff. With a bunch of models that that faction doesn't use. Like all foot troops and a shark. Like there were no eels in there. There was no turtle. There was no like... That's what we're going to do. Balthome on the way. Surely. That's going to finally turn on thralls. I mean, it's all about thralls. We'll save it for the predictions. Yeah, maybe. Yep. I do like the look of the flame keeper. I think he...  I think he looks... That's fine. He looks pretty good. Yeah, so we had that and we're all clearly jazzed about it. We had actually some big news from 40K, which may or may not be relevant to AOS lands. So I guess you guys both saw this. Yes. News about 40K that we are moving to six month seasons. Mm-hmm. So two seasons a year. Obviously in AOS right now we're doing one season a year with the general's handbook. They're going to be hanging out in a war zone, war zone knock months, or however you say that, and then specifically Vigilis, kind of returning back to Vigilis, the key area. So, yeah, they're doing a kind of a number of different pieces are all going to be wrapped together as part of this, yeah, six month season. They're doing a campaign book with these new kind of crusade, mission packs, new grand tournament, mission packs, lots of different new rules. And then combine this with quarterly updates that they are on, unlike AOS, you know, we don't yet know if we're getting quarterly updates, but they have committed to quarterly with 40K. So yeah, what do you guys think about all this, this time horizon that they've committed to now? Wow. Holy. It's intense. It's intense. Do not want. I mean, this is the discussion, right? The question is, are we getting this in AOS? And boy, do I not want this, right? I don't want a six, like, because what they're going to, they're like, effectively, they're going to to what we would think of as GHBs a year. Right, which is insane. Like, that is insanity. From a balanced standpoint, that's insanity from a, like a turnaround standpoint of content production. Hold on. Just go to bed. Sure. Put it on. Sorry. Yeah, I mean, here's my, here's my honest take on it. That's just too much. That's too much content. Like, I don't, I'm not here to talk about what's going on in 40K. Maybe 40K is big enough. Maybe they're seen as such that they actually want this. I'm not judging it for, for them. Like, maybe it's right. Maybe it's wrong. I'm not close enough to the 40K scene to be able to evaluate, right? My, but like, I do not want this officially for AOS. Like, I don't, one GHB a year is fine. It's fine. I even, you know, I was pointing out last week that I don't want quarterly balance updates, which we'll talk about that a little bit later in predictions as well. But man, that is, that's intensity as far as like books goes and rules blow and all of that kind of stuff. Like, yeah. Hard pass. Hard pass. And I think I'm right there with you guys. Yeah, that just feels like way too much. So I mean, I'm happy to get behind it like we talked about. We'll talk more of the quarterly updates combined with one season. You know, depending on good details, but yeah, this seems pretty wild. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Did we have anything else? We got a lot. Yeah, we got a lot to go over. So it's a quiet time. AOS right now. And that's fine. That's okay. The end of the year. It's the end of the year. All right. Gentlemen, let's talk about some pick of the week. Okay. So Tyler, what would you like to share with everybody? Oh, Vince, that's a great question. What would I like to share? Did you forget to pick something? Buddy, you know who I haven't mentioned in a few weeks? Who's that? It's a little-known channel called Seasonal War. There it is. There it is. I was going to say, I was literally going to guess it, but yes. Take a drink, put it on the, you know, put your dot on the bingo card. They have just killed it this year. Jordan, Ridge, Essity, Carl, everybody over there. Love you guys and gals. Thank you for everything that you've done for the community. It's extraordinary. Check them out, folks, if you haven't yet, for some odd reason. Seasonal War. Very nice. Awesome. Tom, do you have a pick? Nope. I'm not even going to pretend like I have one. Guys, both failed the very basic assignment of this show. Nope. That's fine. I'm about a year in. My progression toward Tom status is in progress. Hey, just like scattershot in Facebook messenger. I've only been here seven years. It's fine. No, you're clearly both on a path. My pick of the week is to this most recent episode of Terped Under Plastic or Trapped Under Plastic, which is the podcast for the miniature painting enthusiast hosted by Miniac, obviously, and then John, Scott and John's most recent podcast. John talks a lot about coming up for the weekend and doing the big hangout. So you get mentioned some there, Tom, you get talked about. But it's. For what? For in Trapped Under Plastic because it's John talking about his time here. Remember how you were here and we did that? Do you remember that? No. That weekend was kind of a blur for me. It was just the weirdest thing. Sure. It was just you painting just hundreds of assembling and painting hundreds of night.  It was a great time. Thanks, Kathy. Yes, but it was a very fun episode. And they also talk a lot about golden demon prep. Obviously that's, you know, very much in full swing for a lot of people if you're concerned about it. And so that's my pick. Go check out that episode of Trapped Under Plastic. It was a lot of fun. Thanks. So gentlemen, with that, let's turn to some hobby time. Tyler, did you paint anything this week? By the way, yeah, yeah. Kathy, if you're listening, I need a good show recommendation. I haven't got one from you in a while. So if you got one for me, I got a couple for you, Tyler. We can try that. No, obviously not. And 20, 22, still not happening. I got some 7th games in. You know, guys, like it's going on. 2016 is when that book came out. Still talking about them. Still can't get away from them. Still trying to mount.  Like he is just personifies. Is this even with the new ability to fight at the top of your profile? You still think you're angry? Even re-rolling wounds in combat. Man never fails to not let you down. He's just it's incredible. Anyway, yeah, we were trying out the new missions and which are working well. Good. Tyler's been working on bringing some of the previous scenarios that we liked, some of the popular old scenarios into a 3.0 footing. I think he's doing a great job with it. I look forward to seeing your work with those. Awesome stuff. So Konstantinos and his friends that did that one day here in Sweden. We got a lot of great feedback from that. That's awesome. Very good. My strong recommendation, Tyler, is to definitely stop playing Sylvanite. What did you paint anything, Tom? No.  I have a really special conversion coming that I've been working on quite a bit and it's using like a bunch of different kits from the Lumineth stuff and also from Stormcast. And so I've been working on that pretty religiously. I'm cleaning up.  And actually, you know, I mentioned this to you guys before the show. This is going to be the last time that I am broadcasting from this spot. So this is the end. My new area is set up and so the next time I am on the show and forever more, that's where I'm going to be. So I am in the process of cleaning my hobby space.  Yeah. So. All right, awesome. Well, my hobby time, current you may be on to something, the my hobby time has been somewhat limited for various reasons, part of why the week has been less effective, had to deal with several very depressing real life things.  I literally finished gluing the last piece back on to them or assembling them from their sub-assemblies four minutes before this show started. But there we go. I've got two of them. They took forever. I will probably do the hero and that is it. Like that's not true. I've got to do at least two more. I'll do four total at some point, but God, it's like we've got some swords. Yeah, I gave him swords. Yeah. Nice. Very cool. So sweet, man. And he's this one's attached by only his tail. As you can see, like he's way up in the air. Well, they're both attached by their tail, but just different positions. I didn't, of course, use their goofy flight stands. Never, never do we use flight stands, not in this house. So hey, hey, fight stands can be good sometimes. Sometimes. Pass. But because of the modeling choices I made with these guys of how I put them, they actually can cohere. Like, I understand they have the better rules to be three inches, but I actually can, can make them an inch apart, like if I needed to. So just in case I need to group them up, I wanted to them, because sometimes you actually need to fit them into a tight space. So there you go. Yes, Kathy is telling me I better do the rest since she bought a box of these for me for Christmas. Don't worry, I will. It's going to be your box, dear, that I do the hero out of. That's the most important beauty in the army because that's the general. So that's literally the most, well, second most, behind Skig. But it's, you know, very important model, so don't worry. It's one of them called Huma. No, it'd be like, I don't know how to turn Huma into a rat name, but sure. Skuma. There we go. Skuma. Zato says flight stands are proof that we are alone in the universe. I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. It's a cold, uncaring universe. All right. So that's been my hobby time, but these jerks are done, which is good. And hopefully my computer can, now that I had to reinstall everything and lost all my old stuff, I have to get making videos again. So we'll get on it. All right. Well, with that, gentlemen, are you ready to turn to our next subject, which I'm going to bring this up and it's not going to be properly formatted. So I've got to fix that. I'm sorry. I had forgotten to shape this appropriately beforehand. That's my fault, everyone.   I'm impressed. Yeah, I'm impressed. You're coming along, man. Good job. Appreciate you acknowledging. Shit. All right. Sorry, everyone, that I had to fix that. That was my fault for not doing that beforehand. Let's start with a quick look back. Okay. Awesome. And here I want to play a game and I want to involve the audience. Okay. So we're going to play a game here, everybody. Here's the first thing. Well, we're going to save the second question, okay? Because two things, everyone. First off, don't forget to hit like, subscribe and do all those things. Slam those buttons. They're super fun. Do YouTube things. Number two thing, audience, I want you to put in the chat, or if you're watching this in the future in the comments, what our worst takes of the year were? What was something, one of our takes that we had over the course of this year that has proven horribly false. And you thought was our worst take of the year. Okay. I love that you're doing this. I'm so excited you think out there is our worst take of the year. Okay. Now we talked about this. I didn't think you were going to do it. Love that you're doing this. All right, cool. I'm excited. I told you I wanted a like a, you know, misses and mistakes. Yes. That we made. This is what I thought the way to do it. Right. Bring the audience and let them tell us. Because the problem was, I know some of my bad takes, but I'm going to miss them. You know what I mean? Like I have to go back. Yeah. But there you go. Subnergal. All right. Subnergal. Subnergal. Here we go. Before we get into that, everybody's going to start writing down. They're going to start putting the chat, the worst takes. But first, what did we learn for 2021 in Asia? Tyler, what was your learnings this year? Well, I'm going to go back guys. Yeah. But butcherous, please. I mean, the first thing I learned is never say you don't recognize somebody's name, especially when you have seen that name before.  That was, that was a lot of fun guys. Don't do the, who are you? Never again. Yeah. All right. I've got a bunch of them. Why don't we go back and forth? Maybe I'll give you guys one and you can hit me with one. Okay. So the value of 3.0 standardized scoring, how we've moved toward for the most part, this hold one, hold two, hold more battle tactics type scoring. It thought it was going to be nice, but didn't think it was going to like it as much as I have this year. And I think there's a fair amount, like one open question that I have is what's a good balance between the number of missions, the type of missions that have this standardized scoring and missions that don't. So like, let's take veins of Gerr, the veins of Gerr in the fifth battle round, you've got 15 points that are on the table. You could get, I don't know if we're, I don't think we're burning in, in the veins of Gerr. So I think it's 15. Yeah.  Oh, yeah. What do you guys think about like, I was kind of curious your thoughts on that question of sort of old score type scoring where you can wrap up points, et cetera, and the standardized scoring. Definitely love the new scoring better. I think I said, this is actually a take off stand behind this wasn't, this is one of my, I think good takes right away. I think I identified that that new scoring was, it was a huge deal and it made it was going to have an impact on the game. Right. Because it, it keeps scores tighter. It makes games a lot more back and forth. And the, the scenarios that adhere to that, that actually like use the new scoring system, tend to be the good ones. And the ones that don't pretty much aren't like, that's not completely true. That's a bit of hyperbole, but it's also not that far off. Right. So yeah, I think, I think that this is what I'm actually pretty proud of. Cause I think I was on point, but what I learned was my guess was right. Right. Like, wow, did it have an impact? So yeah, I agree. Tom. The worst take. No, like, no, what did, do you agree on the, on the scoring thing for the new scenario? Yeah, yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. All right, Tyler, what else we got? Let's see. So we did talk about Savage games, just continue on this. Yeah. The missions is that I remember in the show we did, I thought it was going to be okay. And you were pretty staunchly. Against the change with the fact where everybody missed it. You know, we were playing it. Well, I think there was some confusion about how we're supposed to play it, but generally, I think for the most part, we were playing it to where the two in the middle of such gains is one bordering each of your territory in the two in the middle. We were playing it. Even if you hold both in the middle, you certainly get a max of two points. Changed it to where you get four points. And I, yeah, found that the scenario fell off a cliff for a lot of people after that. So I was a little surprised by that and kind of related to the standardized scoring thing. Yep. Maybe, you know, I know there's still some stands out there for the way that works right now, but let's see what else we got. The value of one use only on grand strategies in a tournament setting. No duplicate use of grand strategy.  And I just thought that was an excellent change. You know, generally the date on grand strategies has been that they're too easy to achieve in a fine graph tournament. You know, I think the statistically it's like, what was it? It's like 68, 65% that we'd seen. Pretty high. Was it higher than that? Yeah. It was up near the 80 for a lot of them. Okay. Yeah. Oh yeah. No, I thought that that was one thing that really stood out this year. Kind of the value of that approach to make grand strategies a little more challenging to actually achieve. Okay. All right. Right on. Tom, anything that you learned this year for, for AOS? I've got one. You think here's mine. Go ahead. No, you hadn't already hit me. Yeah. Yeah. No, for me, it's that no matter how much you wish that something is true, Vampire, it's remain ever elusive in the myth. That's definitely getting into the worst takes area. The my thing that I think I learned is one definitely time matters and three hour round should be the new norm for rounds at a tournament. Because, you know, we had said at the beginning this is going to be a lot higher complexity. It's highly likely that people are going to have trouble finishing games. So on and so forth. And the the that definitely came true. So I definitely learned that in 2021. The other thing I think we've definitely seen is that skill does matter a lot in 3.0. Probably more than it did before. But it still doesn't like for the for the majority sort of fat middle of players. As like when we did the stats show with JP. Right. It's still going to be the army imbalances that swing the day. And we're in a period now where we're seeing some really like some really significant armies. This big clutch of the sorrowful or the the sullen six down at the bottom, who we might as well just call like the terrible 10. Frankly, honestly, it's expanded with the newest stuff. And and those armies have just fallen out because they're unable to to compete now. Sure. Can the best player or one of the best players in the world, you know, like somebody like Bill Sousa come up and still do a lot with them. Yeah, sure. Absolutely. You know, you look at like Byron doing pretty well with slainesh and stuff like that. And Bill Sousa having slainesh like Evan doing good with slainesh. Like these it can be done. Right. Even these bad armies can get to four ones five O's, but it really takes somebody at the top of their game. Right. And like that shouldn't be too surprising. Yeah. Yeah. Like in 3.0 because of the nature of scoring, especially if the scenarios are picked right, you really do have an out for high skill to matter. Yeah, I would agree with that. You know, which is good. That's a good place to be. It would just be nicer if a lot of people weren't being handicapped by the army at the same time. Right. Because most people will never achieve that high level of skill. It's just that. I mean that in any kind of insulting way. Okay. It's just like there could only be so many Louis Scott Vargas in the world. Right. Right. To make a magic reference. Like I played magic the same number of years as he did. I would not even, I can't even see him. He's such a distant star. You know what I mean? So like there's just, there's just a, sort of you can hit a wall, right? Yeah. There we go. All right. I got a few more. We need that. Okay. So the impact, I mean this is maybe obvious, but the impact of poor terrain roles. Yeah. Incomplete terrain roles like that's really stood out this year. We talked a lot about that one. Yeah. I didn't even think I had a discussion there. We spent so much time turning on it. I just can only say, yep. Yeah. I didn't really fully appreciate this until this year that hero face shooting does just seem to be a terrible idea. I'm sort of writ large. Like any, any time you can do hero face shooting, that just seems to, it's like, you know, if, when, whenever we do a rules design show again, like that would be on my list of cardinal sends in terms of rules design, allowing hero face shooting.  It's the combination of things. Right. What we saw is we kept threatening that the age of shooting was coming back throughout 2019 and 2020. And now finally we got here and it was like, it was like we got a, it was like a monkey's paw situation. Right. Right. Well, it came back in 2020, but it was on TTS when it came back. Sure. Right. But what we got was this sudden combination of like mortal wound, long range, multi tap shooting.  To eliminate that rule. Yes. Yeah. But you can actually displace it somewhere that I think it becomes useful combat face shooting for units in combat. Sure. Like there's a way that they could do that. So it's, yeah, you can like, oh, you turn the bow sideways, pop, pop, like we get it, you know, like sure you could, you could do that in some interesting way. Right. And what it does is it, you limit it because you're not, there's power projection is only those in combat. Right. And, but it still allows shooting units to increase their DPS over the short term, which is what hero face shooting, like the problem with shooting units ultimately is that unlike combat units, like melee units, you're only getting to shoot once per turn rather than twice. And so hero phase, because you don't shoot in the enemy turn, obviously. So hero face shooting was helping compensate for that damage loss. And if they just moved it to the combat phase, that actually solves most of the problems. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Paul Castro. Absolutely. Like that's, we talked about that last show that maybe we need to have a show, something like in defensive shooting where we actually dive deeply into that topic of shooting and the role that it should be playing in the game and trying to find the middle ground with it and all of that. Cause yeah, there's a lot of new ones there. Obviously you don't want to game. Yeah. If you don't have any shooting, then clearly that's going to be bad for the game as well. Yeah. Let's not forget, let's not forget the world that we lived in with immortal five wound foot heroes. Like when, when daughters of Cain ruled. There's got to be some kind of middle ground here, but yes. Right.  And so like there's a reason why shooting needs to be in the game. Yep. Any other, any other what we learned, Tyler? Yeah. Let me, I got a couple more here. I mean, I think we're officially in the era of the real middle should be what all of us expect studio play testers community that 45% to 55% range.  But yeah, to me, like we're, we're well past that point now on what should be expected at large. Yep. Playing by intense. That one came up a few times this year. And I know Tom had some experience with that this year as well, that I feel like in the community, there's still not sufficient shared understanding about what that means and the importance of it. And maybe some disagree about whether we should be playing by intense. But yeah, I'd love to do a show with you guys. About that topic. And you know, we talked about how there was a great article recently in Goon hammer. Yeah. And that's a great. Yeah. Did a great job of kind of. Breaking down breaking out some of the different elements underneath those three words playing by intense and the nuances there. So yeah, I would love to explore that in greater depth, but I really think that's kind of an under tapped area. That's pretty important to tournament play experience. Good. I've got experience. I've got experience. I don't think it's going to make a lot of your friendly games in your basement. A lot more fun too. It's just a good habit to be in because you're trying to create a shared reality with something that's honestly pretty fiddly. Right. Like fiddly rules with fiddly models moving in a three dimensional space. Right. The number of arguments I had when I was younger over like an eighth of an inch or a sixteenth of an inch or something, you know, and it's just, it was just us not communicating. Right. Me read a lot of these final ones. We can move on. The value of less is more. Definitely have noticed that a lot this year. You know, there's some kind of disagreements around that.  And Vince, you and I, I'm not sure, Tom, you're using stormcast battle tone, but we were big fans of it and sort of the design philosophy behind it. The, we clearly still need a better process for updating points. That was a hot mess. In the, in the latest rounds. That's how much work actually goes into warmer weekly. Surprised me a lot this year. And anyone who produces content, like I had no idea the amount of work that goes into the show. It's pretty nuts. So yeah. It's too much for it to be this bad. I think that's the point. And a couple more. Let's see. Real ongoing differences in tournament packs around the country. Pat, you know, we're going to have somebody on here soon to get into that conversation a little bit more. You know, some of the differences between tournament packs that are still happening. I'm really looking forward to that, but that I wasn't quite aware of some of these, you know, really sizable differences in tournament packs that are still out there. And I look forward to the discussion. I'm excited to talk it through. I mean, there's like the Midwest and then there's a bunch of people who are wrong, but I see no reason. I'm just messing with all the East Coast, West Coast people who I know have taken Umbridge. But no, I actually am very much looking forward to the discussion because I don't get to play obviously in the West Coast scene at all. I'm not going to go out West to play tournaments, right? So most of what I do is Midwest and South. So, you know, that's I am fascinated by the sort of regional differences of how people think about the game. And I'm done. Okay, cool. All right. Worst takes of the year. Here we go, gentlemen. I'm going to scroll it back here. Scrollie, scrollie, scrollie. There's any worst takes you didn't see in there that then, uh, then, you know, let's get to it. Drop them in the chat, folks. Flaming poll right out with worst take Scavener, well positioned for third edition. Got me. Got me. Bert. Yeah. I stand behind my take that Scavener, the most fair army in 3.0 right now as clearly the rules have seemed to say. Yeah. Or the results. I'm sorry. I've seemed to say, um, but yeah, boy, are they, I was, I was so excited for them to be positioned, but I didn't understand the nature of the reinforcements hitting them so hard. The one, two punch of like reinforcements and how important just damage in general has become like being limited on your reinforcement points and then needing hammers right now is a real challenge. Um, okay. Oh, we're almost in the clear. I got one. We're almost in the clear with the logistics problems. Oh, geez. Did we ever say that? Like that, at some point, like on the other side, we're like, yeah, things are going well.  Sure.  Sure. Okay. So I don't remember who this poll was. This might have been like an episode poll or something like that. They pulled Americans. This is the, this is a U.S. poll. So for people outside the U.S., this doesn't necessarily represent your country. They pulled Americans in June. And the basic question was, do you think the situation vis-a-vis, you know, the coronavirus, the pandemic is getting better, staying the same or getting worse? Okay. In June, 80% of Americans said it's getting better. That's incredible. 80% of Americans don't agree on anything. Okay. They ran the same exact poll, same exact question in August. Do you know what the new number was in August? 19%. Oh my God. So I'm just saying the world changed a lot over the summer. Okay. Anyways. Wow. All right. Okay. Steve and Chance's third edition was going to be delayed for a year. Yeah. We took that like pretty early on, but I backtracked on that one already pretty hard because I said there was just no way this train was stopping. Yes. I did. Let's be very clear. I was adamant that it was going to drop this last summer. That's fine. I remember having that take, so I'm with it. Yep. Let's see. Skaven, that was technically Cinderfall. That was our 20, like that was the 2020 prediction show when I said Skaven were going to be in the new starter set. So, you know, that's fine. That was when we were doing the broken realms predictions. I guessed Orcs, didn't I? Yeah, you did.  Yeah, they were new Orcs, but they were Orcs. Sure. But yeah, I'll give that one to you. Vampirates. A lot of people say in Vampirates. Let's see. I saw you trying to slide in there, Tom, with the drones. I stand behind you. Yeah. Your drone take is terrible and I will take you down. You know what? Let's see. A lot of support for Vampirates. Yeah. You know what, folks? Vampirates won Holy Havoc for Favorite Army. Let me just say that. It took somebody's custom work, but yes, there you go. It took somebody's custom work. So, I mean, there's gas there. It's just GW that fell behind. Not us. Wes Odin says all of Ninjons takes on Soul Blights. Got to love, John, but hard, hard, hard to agree there. There you go. Yeah. Let's see. Crazy horse take. Croak is broken. I mean, we said that about original recipe croak. And I agree with that take still. Original recipe croak was broken. New croak has a random element to him or he can just suddenly die, which immediately took him out of the competitive landscape because Spike doesn't like random elements. No. Yeah. Sorry. Try again, Picasso. We got an easy one on that one, buddy. We've been consistent on that. Secretly Paul says Tyler choosing not to paint is one of the worst takes. I agree with that completely. That's low hanging for it there. You're going to have to try a little harder. I need a lot of bad takes this year. FD says Gargants. I don't know what my take was on Gargants. I said the book was poorly designed. I stand behind that to this day. Maybe I said they're not that bad at some point. Even though it's winning, it's still poorly designed. Yeah. It's a terrible design book and awful. Yeah. Let's see. We might have said third ed was going to be light for changes. I don't remember if we said that, but I'll trust you that we did and we were definitely wrong if we did.  I will openly admit I would have never predicted the changes to be this big. So I'll give that as a worse take. Absolutely. Let's see. Somebody said anything that I said about doc was a bad take. Yes. That was fairly consistent. That doc is amazing. Let's just be very clear. Alessandro says when you all said no new spider writer Gabos because there is a spider chaos warband. I stand behind that Alessandro. I stand behind that take 100% because Alessandro, they had a chance to put before putting spider guys in and they were like, should we use the existing spider faction we have? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. So what does we do? What shall we make a better faction we have? Or make a completely random new thing? They picked a new thing. If don't tell you. Your faction is dead. I don't know what does. They picked new things twice because with the Hob grat or whatever, right? Sure. If there's bug people in there, Sure. There's bug things in the new and the crew of boys grots there so brutal let's see all right any other any other bad takes I knew that we were doing this tonight I would have gone back and found the clip from the gloom spike gets review according to one Tom Lyons Boingrod bounders are basically going to be the most deadly like from two and a half years ago that multiple times that was a long time ago first of all I own my mistakes when I'm wrong yes we were very wrong there that's cool any any other so so Tyler what other takes have we had that you think were some of our worst oh man oh lord god I don't think that that that's fine I've got one of my yeah okay let me let me think about it yeah sure so one of my takes that I that I thought was that I thought didn't age well okay mm-hmm other than the scavener well positioned for 3.0 which I think was definitely like that that is aged like a like just a just a rotten piece of fruit left out in the sun okay but one of my takes that I think didn't age super well was in my initial excitement for iron jaws so I'm gonna fess up to this like oh yeah you were not excited about the update that iron jaws were right I thought there's no way the book could get even better a third time and yet it did okay but honestly it's too good that's exactly that's the take that I'm saying here like we totally we both totally miss that man it's too fast it hits too hard and and it there's this sort of blind spot that I know I have and it's hard for me to see passage especially with an army I really love around alpha melee armies because alpha melee armies don't scare me right right I know how it's like screens like I like build armies with screens and I you know I've played against her times like nobody's gonna alpha block me I'm not worried about it right but the and I'm not trying to sound like a jerk I just mean like it's not a winning tournament strategy folks like people don't generally go 5-0 on backs of alpha melee strategies other than like a few times in history where you could like tie up their entire line with altered with all you know right or if you had eels that can jump on yeah eels or yeah you could jump yes yeah anybody that can jump on yeah but but what I didn't respect is just how much of an absolute problem it was gonna be for a lot of people and how much of not a fun time it was is for them to play against and we still live in this world by the way it's uncorrected you know it's just I think my worst take was was not understanding just how much of a problem that army would be not even I'm not talking in the competitive results because like iron jaws is doing decent ish competitively okay it's not that the sinister sticks six still easily handle iron jaws because again most players piloting those armies to the top of tournaments they have the tool set to easily handle an alpha melee army right right but that's not 99% of the games 99.9% of games being played aren't those games and you know it's just like it's just a bad time for a lot of people and it makes me sad because I really do love playing the army like I'm not gonna lie it feels like you're all gas no brakes a hundred percent like you are just man it is it is everything I ever wanted out of my timmy brain can barely stop itself but that's that's my one of my worst takes right not understanding just how much of a toxic experience that was gonna be for a lot of people that's a great one how many come mine I've got a little one so a little one literally a little one go trick now I would like to think that we were sufficiently qualified in our discussion around go trick this year early on when there was a lot of talk about him whether he was an issue or not in the meta whether he needed to go up in points or not and but I have the feeling that maybe we were a little could have been a little a little more tempered at the time when it comes to go trick having played him quite a bit this year after that initial show I can remember which show it was but we were talking about what we thought needed to change updated tone down etc you know sort of the problematic elements in the ecosystem he was the one that I found to be the most actually relatively in line but of course I think he got the largest point increase of the last round the balance update like a 50 point point increase Vince is that match your memory at all or yeah yeah I like I don't know that that's a worse take a go trick I feel falls into much the same camp as what I just said with iron John it's like yeah yeah it's not sorry interrupt you it's that and this is the thing I struggle I struggle with it with our show in these conversations is that I told you I was joking with you one time about how sometimes I feel like you pull out this trump card because I think we're having a conversation about competitive AOS and you're right we're actually having a conversation about casual AOS well we're having a conversation about AOS right you know yes I mean what's the most game will never go to a tournament right exactly what what is what what's the first principle what is our baseline what is our starting assumption so that's some where I often feel like there's I'm not thinking about that as the first principle as the baseline and some of these considerations I'm thinking about my experience the experience of other tournament players yeah in how well you can or cannot handle go trick or whatever the case might be so anyway I said in competitive scene he's not that that big of a deal and I stand by that having piloted him in my Nash con list you know like I had the option every game of choosing between a glist with go track and a list without go track I chose without go track more than I did with and generally that's been my experience as well Tom like facing him against him yeah for the most part you are able to play around him and yeah anyhow yeah that was one that stood out to me I didn't especially appreciate at the time when we did that original show but Paul that's a good one the worst hot take past the glory 3.0 is garbage did we ever say that we did well when we when we were doing the show when we got the new thing I believe there was a comment that was made when we were reviewing the new edition of path to glory it doesn't matter it's all hot garbage oh maybe that could be you're right that could have come out I've always been a proponent that path to glories position in the book is garbage yeah I stand behind that day I did not realize how much they changed pathway that's why we had Paul on so there you right yeah and that was a wonderful show where we where we recanted yes one of the lowest view shows of the last year yeah and you know what it's everybody else's problem because I don't care I'm not I'm not angry about it I'm just like I'm providing statistical evidence that it's not the the form of play that maybe well it could be like our audience type of thing as well like people cultivate an audience but you know at any rate there we are Paul Paul's right I do remember I can't remember our exact words but I remember after that show I think we might have talked about it like feeling like oh we shortchanged the path to glory side of it I'll say that that's that's a hundred percent true yes we didn't give it it's due but like you know it's position in the book still remains my greatest frustration why is it in the middle like that they're still doing it please stop please stop they're doing it just for you Vince I like I love the new system is really strong they did a good job learning from like the crusade system in 40k and bringing it over and so like great good work a plus but okay there we go any other worst takes we want to get out before we go to 2022 predictions gosh I'm sure there's dozens more but yeah that's all I can think of right now okay but I'm very happy with the early take on the gash and soul blight personally I think that might be strong John again that's a strong take John but all right that's how people perceive it I've never I've always said it's fine for the people who are out there and I like it's cool I don't know that I ever was that hard on it but sure but you're right that people do have an audience right so there you go I I certainly know plenty people who are who play it so that's not the question yes many people right path to glory all right 2022 predictions boom boom do it all right well that was a fun well not quick look back but that was fun okay you do that more often I'm sold on this being a good idea yeah I love this is like one of my favorite shows of the year J said worst takes the next was pointed for 3.0 we all thought that we all thought still wrong there we go okay let's get into some predictions all right I want to start here actually with an unusual slide gentlemen this is actually gonna be I need to I need to move this I didn't realize it would get all wonky there we go okay do you know what this is that's up on the screen if you're if you're both watching you'll see it in just a moment but I'm gonna share with everybody else what this is back when the when 3.0 launched we got together and we did a prediction show okay okay prediction show was let's predict the books for the next year oh yeah it's a good show I missed that one pretty sure thing is just the two of you I think it was the two of us yes and so yeah this is where we landed on what we thought was going to happen so I wanted to check in with this because we check our to wait this these shows are about keeping us honest okay and and so we had well we had a six month delay hold on stop there was a six month delay on books right that was that was part of the conversation yeah I mean yes we did this in June before the launch because we didn't even know what works we didn't know what the cruel boys were yet when we did this we knew there was a new army opposing them and it was gonna be or we didn't know they were cool right right like that like that should show you when we do this this had to be like the beginning yeah right yeah okay so we had said but stormcast and then whatever the other new one were we knew those are both coming right so yeah and then we said okay we're gonna get night-haunted beasts right and I had said we pushed Nergal way down into Q2 I get so and so forth obviously all this was wrong all this is wrong like nothing Q1 of 2022 is going to be true is the correct one yes accidentally because chance art was supposed to be Q4 of this year but yes it will probably accidentally be correct right so this was our prediction now here's what we really got okay which is not much scanter list now I'm gonna break here we're gonna talk about this on this slide I'm assuming that with the new box set that means we're getting an updated Aideneth and fire slayers book not a combined dwarf book it's just a fire slayers book maybe okay did you were you are arguing for an outlier position here but defended that I don't think that we're gonna get a I don't think we're gonna get a full I think we will get a full IDF book I do not think we'll get a full fire so I don't I don't think that we I don't think that there is enough in that army to demand a new book because again we're only getting one new model we're not getting a new endless spells we're not getting I mean we don't know that let me be very clear we could be getting new models to fire slayers I don't think we are I I I'm gonna hold out hope and say I think that we're still gonna get a combined war dwarf book so that war clan style you can do a KO plus fire slayers or you can do independent fire slayers and cities like cities and or cities and or maybe not cities KO fire slayers and possibly a new dwarf book completely and what I would say is that that if that is true it would be in the April time slot when traditionally we get new armies so like we'll have the fire slayer launch and then a month or two later you would get the full dwarf launch with the fire slayers integrated in with the new army and KO so that's that's that's gonna be in my prediction for what I am I don't think is for sure but I think is possible yeah I mean I'm gonna go ahead and take the easy money on this one sure which is when they release combined boxes they then release a book for each force that's in it that's what they do okay like it's pretty straightforward and you know like yes sometimes those books can be quite delayed you know with the 40k what is it shadow throne or whatever it was like because of the shipping stuff the custodies and gene-stealer like that box came out December we still don't know the official time for the release of the those two 40k books but like clearly they're coming they've said hey yeah there those books are coming you're gonna get this and this right and you know like I just don't think this is any more complicated than it is if they wanted to do a combined book you would have seen a KO model in that box that's what it would have been because they're not introducing a whole new range the only time this ever didn't happen the one time you could point to in history is only cruel boys were in dominion but their full book was a combined book okay but that's because that was a whole new range of new stuff this isn't these are all existing models this is just a fireslayers book because otherwise they would have put in like a gun hauler and five thunders instead of the five or a car or in something or whatever whatever not unless there's a there's a planned delay between the book update and the box drop itself which I don't they they release these things with I don't think there's a plan delay no no we we had that with Sylvan F when Sylvan F dropped Sylvan F didn't get a book update for like two months again like that was still that was still there I don't like I remember the Sylvan F thing but yes you're right there was this slight time delay because of either shipping or other oddities that happened you remember Tom that was an oddity that got pushed back you know how I know it got pushed back and that wasn't the original plan because the Sylvan F iBook went live on the original day it was supposed to when we all downloaded the tome you remember that happened because they forgot to reset the iTunes live date sure but you just remember that the even the even the get's that were in that all the squigs that were in that box were that was not corresponding with a book release against book release they sure yes sometimes these battle boxes you're off by like a month okay and that's what I'm predicting with if they were by point is there's no like I just can't see it man I again I'll take the easy money I look if I'm wrong I'm wrong I'm happy to be wrong but the easy money here is this will be like the other 30 times they've done this and within a month of the box they'll release a book for each I mean here here's the challenge with your position it's a financial like train wreck fire slayers are simply not a viable financial line I don't disagree with you but that hasn't stopped there they are the least popular they are the least popular yep they are and both from a tournament standpoint representative from an aesthetic standpoint financially they have to be one of the least purchased least supported armies in the game and so for them to release them as another standalone book seems like a waste of time in mind I don't disagree with any of this logic Tom that's all like yes you're correct they should have made it a combined book but not but then again they would have put some KO in that box I mean cable words was just in another box and so I I just I don't know man I I it would not surprise me if they just had fire slayers in this box but still do some type of combined book later sure yeah because what I'm not saying like please hear me like I could very easily see a world where that one we talked about a combined workbook like a Dwarven Kingdoms book or something it would not surprise me if like fire slaves were fire slayers were still starkly say siloed yeah sure they can do it or a warcraft style right yeah that's what I would anticipate is that it would be warcraft and so it will functionally be standalone even if it's combined with this other stuff and if that's the case it's not surprising that there were KO thrown in because they're not ready to trot that elite that that new because what that would be is this fire slayers KO the new grungy faction sure probably of golems or other some craftsmanship stuff right and then some type of combined all three yeah my answer is I hope you're right that's simple like so I'm taking the opposite position but I hope but I hope for your position all right right cool so this is what we actually got now let's get into the future stuff okay right all right which I love how much less we got but I guess we didn't realize that the end of 2021 would be a shipping and you know apocalypse as it were and pushed back they they have to be six to eight months off of their original plan right oh yeah oh yeah like I am assuming that they are just simply like because we just assumed a an aggressive we assumed an aggressive release for third edition and what we got was a tepid release of a handful of books right but yeah such as the world I'm not I'm not blaming them for that yeah that's such as life it's rough all over all right ended up with seven battle tones this year yeah there's Keynes, Laneche, Luminez, Soul Blood, Stomcast, Warclans, you know three factions within there and Nurgle okay here we go put it down now number of battle tomes released actual battle tomes number of battle tomes released for AOS in 2022 what is the number you had 12 in 2019 seven or no 12 in yeah 12 in 2019 right yeah only five I believe in 2020 yeah they go five in 2020 seven in 2021 there we go okay Tyler what is the number in 2022 go I've got let's see I'm more along the lines of Tom's thinking on this fire slayers KO thing like to me it's either they're going not to regurgitate it but it's generally they're either I would seriously doubt they're gonna release a standalone fire slayer I'm sorry the number okay so one two three four five six seven seven you're sticking behind seven Tom your number four six six I'm going ten wow okay I mean like your assumption is they're gonna ramp up production to meet to meet like to play catch-up on the third edition stuff I'm gonna say that we saw production issues and we get screwed yeah my guess is the beginning of the year is slow and then we get a deluge around summer to fall hmm that's that's my that's my prediction right so we'll see most people were guessing between like six to we had a couple 12's a couple like that AOS list labs what's up smorgan says eight and two campaign books with sub factions okay I like it that's a good way to get a 10 that's an interesting 10 I like that I hope we do see we're gonna talk about campaign books in a minute okay okay all right there we go okay we'll see what actually happens but I thought we'd start here with some rumor engines gentlemen to guide our discussion these are unanswered rumor engines okay so these are rumor engines to which we have not seen the associated model according to Warboss Kurgan who I trust in all things so night-hawks coming did are you saying that from the spooky smoke I'm saying pick one pick one of the one two three four possibly five images that are night on no I only see potentially two I'll say honestly which two the bottom middle and bottom middle what about the bottom left the problem I know I know that design the pattern is identical to two Lady Olanders I understand what's cool in CAD Tom is you can copy paste things it's pretty cool I know I understand that that's also a very solid boat type structure yes it is it's for it's the ghost boat it is a ghost boat I thought I turned everything up am I still quiet everybody I really boosted my sound quite a bit so if I'm still quiet and I've turned them down so it should be much more even now so people are like please give me a quick sound check to tell me that we're about even I've really tried to push this back into a to balance here what jumps out at you yes so you mentioned some night on I agree right like there's there's obviously some very strong night on vibes here yep there's a scaven model here there is a scan the model I see him standing above the sewers like that's that's a scaven hand like I've made it a lot of scaven hands okay well okay everybody saying sounds fine now okay good the lower left is that OCR that's the one Tom's pointing out is that that's very much Oleander's little the little the little bramble the little bramble thing is Oleander's design like it's in over the the stuff yeah I was reading chat that's what I get okay I missed that and the maybe fleshier courts there's actually one Vince you didn't have here it was like a sword and it was one that we thought was gonna be fleshier courts I don't think we've gotten a reveal for that one it had kind of a strugoi type hand I don't know if you remember that one but it kind of looks like maybe the middle left is fleshier to courts could be could be a fleshier courts model yeah the little hand grasping the skull yeah yeah I'll buy that what else and let's see I figure out what that top right is I feel like maybe that's a 40k thing could be or maybe those are those are arrow plushings right they look like it yes there oh yeah all right so is that either somebody standing against a statue or is it like my head fell shoulder thing is it I assume that that so here's what I assume I assume the bottom right and the top right the top right I'm assuming is a Stormcast hero for an underworlds warband or something like that yeah something of that nature sure like the bottom right is a Skaven underworlds warband yep yep that's your ash and warband yeah yeah yeah like I assume we're gonna get a Skaven underworlds release as part of this current season mm-hmm okay anything else jump out at you gentlemen any thoughts on the middle I mean that screaming that screams orcs yeah or no you know what that calls me that could be corn that could be very that's very Cornish bones and then that chest plate to the left that's clearly an attempted metal oh yeah I could see that being like so the net guard so some metal thing with a metal collar and then these bone teeth hanging down from it sure so that could be a corn piece is in the middle I agree with fleshy reports on the middle left middle right I think could be night hot tree on a tombstone so it's something it is a tree on a tombstone have to be deathy but it could be right right yes as has been pointed out the the middle one that that symbol you see only part of is the corn symbol so on which one on the middle yeah yes corn got it and then yeah and then the night haunt is for at least two of them I don't the bottom middle obviously I think it's probably night haunt too yeah and notice by the way notice the similarities between the little tentacle thing on the spear the prowl of the ship and the the near the lantern the metal rambles next to the yeah yes yep so all right so the horsey hoof is interesting right yes because that's a very old rumor engine by the by some of these could be cursed city expansions because these go back by the by to February of last year yeah okay and and some of these could be cursed like some of the undead stuff could be cursed city expansion models yeah okay other death factions could get involved in cursed city expansions it couldn't it doesn't necessarily you know we've tended to think of like because all of initial cursed city went into soul blight we tend to think in those terms yeah but SPG couldn't it might you know it's kind of a death thing yeah it could be that other death factions could get cursed city expansions as well right like you could see ghosts showing up in the city or something like that right it doesn't have to be just soul like grave lords as cursed city expansions now that we're back on track for those so who knows okay so I you know to me I see a lot of like underworld slash potential expansions I'm not sure I see anything here that really points me in a direction of like oh this is clearly a new army was right you know the the reason I say the Skaven thing in the bottom is definitely an underworld where ban is because that's clearly a crazy sculpted base right and that's where they do super complicated sculpted bases is in stuff like underworlds right yeah so okay oops sorry predictions let's get into it okay so I'm just time stamping this hold on all right we don't know anything this is our best guess we have divided them into likely maybe and wish list and I have attributed the guesses to the individual person who gave me the information yep and we've looked at things like rumor engines other reasonable assumptions like the age of the books I will say they don't seem to care about the state of the book tell me I'm right that's true okay like I know a lot of people will say oh but you know this book is in really bad shape well when they started working on it two years ago they didn't know that or care right right they did they don't care about the current state or quality of a book because any book coming out you know probably longer than that now just because the nature of the shipping delay right but let's assume everything was straight we had straight shooting shipping going on right yeah if we get a book in April of 2022 realistically they started working on that book like they did the initial planning for that book in April of 2020 yep okay yeah okay thing I'd be curious to go back and look and see to what degree is there a meaningful correlation between the age of a book and it's you know sort of likelihood of getting updated meaning like we just got Nurgle Nurgle was the oldest book yep and we're gonna be getting Ida Neth Ida Neth is now the oldest book that was April 2018 Night Haunt is June 2018 Beast of Chaos September 2 that there's a rumor that Beast of Chaos are gonna join darkness we'll get into that but anyway you guys have any initial thoughts on that like to what degree you could remember there being a meaningful correlation in terms of when a book was how old the book is and it's likelihood of getting an update I mean it is unless you're luminous but yeah that's just it I don't think it's the only thing I think that like that's why I say you can't there's no single North Star here right like we're navigating a ship in the Southern Hemisphere like there's no single star we can look at right are you really saying a game producing a company producing its own producing this game has no clue what's going on no I'm saying that at the time that they decided hey let's do a whatever book right they weren't aware of what the meta was in the middle of 2022 they had like they had some models that the sculpting department set up and they had a list of things that they knew the ages of their books because they already had an existing plan in 2021 we're gonna roll out this book this book this book we're gonna launch 3.0 it'll launch with this book and this book like they have their project plan they have what they've launched in the past and they have whatever models happen to show up through the little you know elevator up from the sculpting department into the design department I like to be clear they would have known what products would be out but they wouldn't know and know how the community is using those products to build on right yeah they wouldn't have a full conception of like exactly what the meta was gonna be like how powerful something was or whatever whatever right right so okay so let's get into the specifics here we go let's we're gonna we're like I said split into likely maybe and wish list so let's start with likely okay I'm starting here with the new fire slayers and I'd net book the trigger the fire slayers is whether Tom's right or I'm right fire slayers will have a book right but they won't update it yes yeah whether that's part of a larger tome with other dwarf crap in it or it's just them they still have a new book yeah that we all agree on yes okay and we know there's gonna be one new model with each it when I call this the Nergal model which is confusing but like it's the Nergal that should say yeah the nergal paradigm right of you know here's here's a rerelease of the thing here's one new hero to go with it go nuts right okay all right so let's start with the generic items that I put up to discuss because you know we all said this right yearly GHB we all know that's the case that's gonna be coming okay so let's put our money down now what realm is the GHB's are gonna change general battle packs and that kind of thing right like that there's a there's a match play battle pack that comes in the GHB that sets the yearly season okay yeah so what realm is the new GHB is the 2022 GHB set in Tyler okay first off do you guys remember or anybody in the comments remember if they let me let me get this out they said whether they are definitively going to a different realm they've never said they're going to definitively go to a different realm now okay they've said they will that the battle pack will change because remember the battle there's different like there's a different match play battle pack in the core rules right this one happens to be set in Gerr right but it's its own battle pack okay please no they never definitively said they're gonna change realms okay though the obvious pick that most everybody is would pick is realm of shadow I don't could be I don't think that's what it's going to be which I could get into right now if you want work later I would like to actually see us stay in the realm of beast however strange that might sounds have another year of realm of beast explore it more shut out more tied into a campaign book tied in the crag nose let's do another round let's have updated rules within the context of the realm of beast but let's stay there okay got it that's what I like different rules like the seismic shift goes away or the man ability to fight at the top of your phase goes away the bonus points for monsters goes away like whatever right like that kind of stuff goes away so we're not heavily incentivizing monsters anymore maybe it's a different kind of beast realm battle pack right but you're saying it stays in girl and narratively yeah you staying you stay in girl you have a campaign book that comes out maybe shortly before around the time the same time maybe it becomes a version very akin to what we're getting with 40k now but instead of every six months it's just the season and they lean further into the season model but and the products are tied into that annual basis I think I don't really feel like we unless one of my goals is going into this year has actually become more familiar with the lore but I don't really feel like we have gotten very far in the narrative around cragness and this whole sort of era of the beast now we're supposed to be in right now Tom I think we're going to Olga I think we're gonna go to Olga and I think that like this ties in with some other predictions and where I think the campaign's gonna go okay because we have sneaky orcs sure right yeah we do and so like them sliding in Olga is in that very natural they're like ha we're gonna get them we're gonna go through and then I think they're gonna awaken some stuff that they should know I'm gonna stick with Tyler here I think Tyler's on the money I think we'll stay in Gerr but we'll move to a different I don't remember the name of the plane that we're on there's like some kind of whatever the name of it is there's like there's an actual plane where the story is focused right now it was where I think what's that on Diaz on Diaz coming to mind on yeah very good good memory yes Thandia I think we're gonna move to like a different area they're gonna jettison all of like the the existing grand strats and battle tactics and assumptions I think like it'll be a totally new battle pack but I think we'll just move the fight to somewhere else in Gerr so they can tell a story with like Kragnos and everything else and then I think that like and I wasn't on this train actually until you and I were talking before the show Tyler and you taught and you went back through the worlds yeah through the underworlds and how it had tied in and some of the like lengthy delay and that got me thinking more about it and I was like mmm it does feel like they're gonna want to have the whole underworlds thing out like release the whole underworlds to set it up then have more of a campaign introduction then drop it like 2023 go to Oogoo or something like that right like they want the whole underworld season to be a complete precursor before they ever go there yeah that the timing doesn't exactly match so shades fire was October 2017 followed by night vaults in 2018 shortly after it's basically the prior versions of underworlds had been you led into a new addition but we're a little off course for that big case unless we have a new addition coming out in 2023 which seems pretty unlikely exactly right so but absolutely that's the pattern that we've had shade spire night vaults for 2.0 beefs grave came out before 3.0 kind of as a pre-cursor precursor and then yeah now Harrow deep so it's a little off in terms of the pattern but yeah it seems plausible to me okay balance updates what cadence are we going to get 40k is doing quarterly they said they're going to keep doing these balance updates but they didn't give us a cadence when they happen and folks what do you think I think they're gonna happen every six months I don't want to think about it I think you're probably right and I think that I think that within I think they will discover it's a mistake and they will wind it back within it within probably a year and a half to two years okay Jack and smorgan are calling out my verbosity my verbose answers cool appreciate it guys quarterly quarterly updates better or worse I think that's what we're going toward all right we'll see what's we'll see what happens yep all right let's get into some specific predictions now from each of us so here's my likely items I think there's a new version of war cry coming next year I don't want that we don't need that war cry is great it's fine it's fine it means nothing but it's the years up folks it's time like the machine grinds ever onward of the machine doesn't care so I think that's coming I think we're gonna get so here's the thing that I I had a long think about this over the past couple days okay I watched Cult of Paint which is you know Henry and and Andy and such and they did a like 2021 kind of wrap-up show right and they looked at like the best models of the year and talking about best paint jobs and stuff like that it was a really really cool show and I love looking at these amazing paint jobs but one of the things that occurred to me watching it was like wow there's a lot of centerpiece models yep right like yeah crag nose new croak techless well no like I'm talking about basically in the last year ish oh got it been released Bellacor okay the dragons maybe even sure yeah yeah yeah the yes big dragons maybe even like you could count something like Sigvault in there I don't know but the point is you get what I'm saying right or the very least you could pick up the big yeah right they love these big centerpiece boxes that are like really expensive because they sell a ton of them right and they charge a lot of money for them and one of the things that was sort of looking to me as I looked at our list let's look at our list of like what books get updated right yep like corn night haunt gets scathing what's your new big centerpiece that's in those for night haunt it's Nagash yeah I understand he can be there but I said they don't want to yes sure no well and so this is what I'm saying I think that what like they shortcut at night haunt by saying we don't need to create we don't have to design new one we just have to put Nagash in there and sell more of the kit this kit that are exists and so I don't think we'll get a new night haunt centerpiece kit I agree and that's my point right actually none of these line themselves up to have like a new big centerpiece easily I get like bloodthirsters already exist and they're already big and bad and beautiful centerpiece models right gets already had a refresh of a bunch of new bigger models like the refreshed loon bosses on mangler squigs and so on and so forth right Skaven we already we had the vermin lords back in 2015 or whenever they came out right right so in looking at these I'm like where are we gonna get if this were to be the only list like if only what's on the likely we're there what's the new big sexy thing that they can sell a ton of for a OS like the new big sexy model and I don't get I mean the like an updated incredible spider kit comes to mind nope no arachno rock spiders going on it is but spiders are going away spiders are not the right answer they're gone okay yeah I mean you're not wrong I guess they could do a redesigned spider kit that spider kit isn't that super old it's not new but it's not like crazy old no no it's like ten years old yeah there's like 2009 I think 2011 somewhere there yeah we almost have to believe that they have that there has to be one new army in here somewhere otherwise they're not selling there's nothing that really gets like the big excitement yes they'll probably make some new heroes for all these I'll talk about my other ones in a second but like there's no last year had so much big sexy right hmm this list does not I mean what I would say is this I could see them dropping creating a some type of name character on a colossal wave like so moving something that's been in Forge world and moving it into the main mine and making it this huge big splashy plastic it yep yeah and and so Alex said Nurgle got no new centerpiece model they just revamped locket yeah I agree and that's that's how I'm saying I'm not saying these guys all need centerpieces I'm actually saying if they follow the Nurgle paradigm for everything that leads to a problem for them right yeah financially it's not they're not actually putting out any of these high impact kits that suddenly get painted by a bunch of people and they're everywhere like the excitement around Bellachor how many Bellachors did you see painted on your feet yeah yeah just all the dollar for a month it was just Bellachor everywhere you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting one right it's a good point yeah I could I could see OBR getting a big news they've got catacross you can see them getting another centerpiece type piece with like the more supposedly we're gonna get more tech archers and OBR definitely needs a book I could see them yeah some of these others that you're talking about are a little challenging yeah maybe like yeah it's something to keep in mind right because we're mainly talking about books but the models matter right having like a big sexy model draws a lot of eyeballs to the thing right okay like releasing a croak gets a lot of people interested in serif on and right so they like having a centerpiece in your army right I mean Scrier like I don't know what it would be but Scrier seems like that's an obvious one that they could they could figure out something wild and fascinating to do as a centerpiece with Scrier I don't know as much about Eschen as I mean doesn't seem like he would be as straightforward to figure out what what the heck you would do with Eschen but then those seem to be the two like you're gonna look for a new a scaven update focusing on a particular clan of scaven I would guess it's gonna be one of those two I would actually push back on that I wouldn't be surprised if it was Mulder okay if they went especially if we if we especially if we stay in the realm of beasts having Mulder come out swinging with a new help it and a bunch of like mounted scaven like on whatever the rats are you know what you know I'm talking about Vince the yeah like all of that would just be like rats on rats like Joe fever said they might rely on 40k for big centerpiece models and somebody else had mentioned it scrolled away but like that they could just do two Primarchs this year and that would cover them completely you're not wrong you're not wrong they could just be like well no no big thanks for AOS this year at all okay I mean it's not like they're winning the favorite models of the year anyways right all right so my argument is when we so the let's talk about the books we all agree on are likely and then we'll get into some individual predictions corn or no I guess I guess corn isn't on your list I'm sorry Tyler I apologize night hot and gets appear on all three of our lists okay yeah night haunt as you mentioned will be the oldest book okay yeah and gets appeared on all three of our lists because why it's that I like it it got a tome celestial 20 December 2020 and then battle tome was January 2019 yep and yet we're all here predicting a kids book is this just is this actually rampant wishlisting why do we think this is likely oh I mean definitely number one the battle tome it is so old and I get the tome celestial update for 2020 that was before 3.0 launched sure I would just start with that and I do think there's an opportunity to have a couple of new kits come out I'm apparently a little more bullish on spider thing than Tom and the prospects for it but yeah it seems like it's it's time okay it will be like your four oldest books so we're all clear here our IDK which we know is getting replaced night haunt visa chaos and gets like those are the four oldest books chronologically also the you know air of the beast in this destruction oriented 3.0 like there's there's that obvious as well who knows whether that's gonna I mean that that just could be a story that we're telling ourselves that may not be much but so let me ask the relevant question why did we all skip visa chaos yeah I've got a thought but you guys have any thoughts no go for it tell me Tyler what we think so they to me a lot of these cast fans are not gonna well I feel like they're either gonna become the next bone splitters or they're gonna get a couple of actual kits new kits and one of the rumors that is out there is that they're gonna fold it into slaves of darkness which I don't that seems weird intuitively to me at least I don't know enough about to know whether that's coherent meaningful anybody has opinions on that would be curious but yeah I guess I'm more basing it on the expectation that they're that rumor is accurate I have some reasons believe that some of these rumors are you know some of them are reasonable so yeah thanks come to my do we all just have we all lost faith that that games workshop is gonna update visa chaos is that what happened here did we all because we didn't talk about these beforehand like I didn't everybody individually I sent everybody off to send these to me we didn't chat about these beforehand intentionally right right good I think that beast the chaos I think that it it's like updating action right so to call beasts at this point I really honestly think is that you're you're inviting an entire top-down redesign of the book of the concept of everything because every kit in there needs to be updated almost every kid needs to be updated and we already have elements of beasts in slaves to darkness with some of the monsters and things like the the cat and the the ogre and mermodon so you have like these elements that are kind of like glimpsing through that we we could easily see beasts some of the remnants of beasts folded in and so like as terrible as this sounds I could see a world where we drop down to three different beast kits plus the big plastic whatever he's called Saigor and all that like so the bet I could see them take the best of the plastics and then release like one to two more of dual kits for some board or whatever that and then roll all of that into a slice dark I think that there's some I think there's some legitimacy to that possibility Tyler and like I hadn't thought about that until you mentioned it but I could definitely see the logic that was one of the rumors yeah they're supposed to get a couple new kits but the latest rumor was that's going to be around in q4 supposedly gets and slaves and darkness combo coming out around that time q4 2022 but yeah it's such an old faction and I mean I know there's a lot of beast cast a lot out there would love to see nothing more than then to obviously not get the bone splitter treatment but yeah there's also this consolidation that's going on I mean I think we have this trend we've been seeing and why I suspect Tom might be right with the fireslayers in KO getting consolidated into one book now we have been seeing more of this in the game and it just kind of feels like a little bit of a natural ongoing step with these factions well I mean I think it's safe to say that like designers seem to want to move away from hordes like that seems to be there seems to be a push in even the concepts and in fielding armies and inherently beasts of chaos are a horde army period they just aren't and so it would not surprise me if it thinned out and got mixed in in some sense with slaves um pair down and mix it in so I'll say I'm not as bearish on beasts as you all I because they're gonna show up on my list in just a moment but I just think they've been a sort of abused faction and I would like to see that change I think that they're like they are some of the most hardcore players are beast players who really really love this and yeah I'll get to them more when I get to my prediction around beasts in a moment so because I don't I I'm not sure I agree with anything that was just said okay uh I think that the corn release will be in the nergal paradigm and I think the new model will be a volt will be valkia we'll get a new valkia hero we got skull taker last time yeah valkia is way out of date she's still fine cast she's a gorgeous model she's due for like amazing blow up uh that's so cool like that would be such so amazing and fantastic and um it's what we all want it's what we all need I'm sure some sculptor would be in in um like within the studio would be thrilled to take on that project right to update such a model such a unique model such a classic yeah such a classic right um and so yeah I think that that's gonna be my my call there that they'll follow that paradigm corn will come out they'll have a very um uh they'll have a very um you know like nergal type paradigm they'll feel much more corny it's going to be very different for people who um who really love the johnny-ish nature of corn right now I think it'll be it's going to be on hard handbrake turn like into this like not at all experience that feels like that well I mean it'll move to like a like a it should move to like an or a four point uh a sort of I mean like we've talked about it before there are certainly similarities right um but I think it's there is a very important difference like sure whatever it doesn't matter I don't want to get into it but um okay tom your prediction here you took a big swing I did I did oh I also gave an example no these weren't likely were they these were likely this is your likely did I really say uh the summer likely I typed in and I was like okay this was your likely um cool hold on one more thing I want to leave behind I'm the only person who put scaven on the likely let me tell you why I think that's the case I absolutely think scaven will get a new book okay then in 2022 and I do not think we'll get the model range redesign that we deserve that is just me believing that such as my lot in life that they will simply re-release a 3.0 book of scaven and update nothing I think that will happen scaven is a pretty old book dating from February 19th it is the sixth oldest book including IDK um so that was part of my reasoning um it is uh I think they will make a new book they won't update the range I wish they would delay it a year in just a faithful range but I don't think they do I think well that's the rumor that's the latest rumor that's out there is that seraphon and scaven will be 2023 with some updates to the range I I don't buy it I think I think my such as my luck that I'm going to get it this year and it's just going to be like here's your underworld warband in a book or something like that I don't want it but I'm telling you I think that's just I the nature of the world all right I know my luck this is okay uh tom summer yeah pain related to malaria this is a big swing for likely hit me on this one defend yourself so so I I think that we are going to again and I may be a year ahead right like we could uh we could stay in ger for this year and then jump to ogu next year but I think that it makes sense if we are in ogu um that like there has to be a narrative push for that and I think that that means that it's a campaign associated with um ogu uh which would mean that uh and I'm not saying that you we would necessarily get a malaria and release yeah right but that we would begin to get we would get the trickle right so if we if war cry has a relaunch which I think is possible if war cry has a relaunch we get one of the warbands in the war cry maybe as um as uh just like the shadow stalkers right we're we're in that last war cry or the one war cry box we could potentially see um uh these these other um malaria related warband or something like we could get like little glimpses of what's going on as they're diving into ogu and then possibly culminating with a quarter four malaria release okay all right now I disagree but I like to take I think I just think the whole thing will be 2023 right which it might be which it might like I'm not gonna say that it's not like it could very easily be spring of 2023 sure all right Tyler you had some books that were just you here in likely you took a big swing on likely uh KO bone daddy's maw tribes defend your your your belief here yeah well I mean this is a little boring I thought one of us should represent some of the rumors that have been floating out there for quite a while and I did go back and you know I sent you that list of there's the book release order that we've had yeah I'm referencing right now I have it over this I mean I mean like Jan of 2020 is when they came out you just said skipping a lot of tomes right that's true well KO I'm thinking that it's gonna go with fire slayers like that is based largely on the assumption yeah that it's gonna be a dual book a multi multi book yeah and then yeah bone daddy's you know we've got the more tech archer in the warband there's been rumors of OBR getting a book they need it that seemed like a pretty straightforward one to me it's not as old as some of these others was that one OBR was 2019 October oh yeah it's it's up there but not quite and maw tribes yeah I mean the so kind of similar to what Tom was saying about a campaign that my thought would be that we're gonna get a summer of destruction and you know it's gonna we're gonna stay in rumblebeast we'll get a campaign book set in another part of the rumblebeast that's a storyline we'll get maybe some factions or sub factions getting some love and we'll get an ochre's update in that summer okay okay if here's what I'll say if we stay in girr then to me the maw tribes thing makes more sense because they'll you're right they'd want it they'd want to focus more on that as the story but like again that's not jumping like a huge it's it's still a good jump okay yeah all right all right like we're still skipping a lot of people there at haunt sorry we've talked a lot about them they're pretty obvious yeah the oldest book other than idk who will get get a battle tone now and then yeah it finally gets we've discussed that so I didn't have corn on here uh they're another one that obviously needs a book and you could easily think that corn would be on the list for this year I just want to add out something that autumn lotus is talking about because people are talking about like how to how to make beasts more interesting and autumn lotus said sort of in this sort of shift into the spookier imagery evil nature spirits mixed with skinwalkers would be a great visual shift or knolls yeah I would love more dnd stuff like knolls um that's I'm not saying they were the first people to think of knolls I'm just saying that's what I recognize and like yeah yeah yeah especially because you know you've got knolls you've got flines you've got all those different kinds of things man I would love that that'd be great I'd love to see those kinds of things be more in there all right let's go to maybe all right so this was our what we considered likely now gentlemen let's talk maybe here's where we get into the meat okay here's we get a little bit weird all right maybe items here's mine first I think we're going to get some new terrain kits in a terrain book that's right I think they're going to take another a second bite at this apple okay uh I think terrain kits feel very likely to me um they already we had the dawn bringer crusade uh yeah so terrain I think that's they're gonna have to do like I think they've clearly been playing around and putting different terrain rules on things like having impassable on defaction terrain you see at Warhammer world they use things like impassable terrain in the game yeah right and so to me I just think we're going to get a a guide to like AOS terrain here's the new terrain pack right with a new kit uh a couple new kits like multiple different new kits okay they had that two page photo there's two page spreads and the core book I think where we saw its illustrations of all of these different terrain pieces it's like this dawn bringer crusades I don't know what it is exactly but yeah we got some of those kits already and you know there's a number there I think in that spreads that we have yet to see that could be kits that's a great guess I like that yeah so there you go um all right well we'll get to the books in a second um but I will like to the to the battle tones I was saying Tom you had standalone path to glory books and I put I added like 40k which again this felt like this actually feels like a super strong guess to me and you put work right update here I think we already talked it through it seems inevitable to me I like I moved like to likely for me because it's just they they're on a rear cycle it's what they're doing it feels written in the stone yeah I would even get so I was saying the standalone path to glory it would make sense to me especially if they're wanting to go to another realm that part of that story actually sits in um in path to glory does that make sense like you don't you don't move into olgu with armies you move in with war bands you it's like small advanced forces and so it would not be a surprise me if they you know I had mentioned the possible campaign stuff with malaria it would not surprise me if a lot of that is actually carried or corresponded with the path to glory stuff and actually because they I think they realize how good of a hit that they have and so that's a book release like that's just simple content that you have to write sure there's no model if you look at 40k there they are doing this like part of what they announced with the seasons was also like yes there's this match play season thing to it fine and dandy whatever but there's also a path to glory releases that go along with this that match the seasons in the war zone and do all of that right right so it just feels like that's a slam dunk or ruining to me right and by the way this is one of those things that they can launch and not have to worry about logistics as much because they're not having to combine both plastic releases with book releases sure I'm sure and so they just print books and then send them out right yep and so and you can technically do book printers in country you know so that you don't have to ship those across the world I mean obviously but they should like if I was GW I would tell GW your 2022 resolution should be to find a UK or US or both printer there's no way you can't tell me you can't find somebody who can print those at a better cost like without the risk right if when you factor in the shipping is quadrupled quintupled on on boats now right right and so it would not surprise me if they try to like implement a new logistics plan and part of that has to do with like divorcing books from plastic in that sense in the short term and doing this path to glory because again we saw this with like firestorm right like when they have that box years ago yep where they're like this is an easy this is an easy exploration yep okay so let's talk books all right so Tom you had the combined dwarves book here yeah okay yeah and I and I and I defend yeah and I defend that yeah um I think that we will definitely see that which involves the launch of a new army new new army which is the uh which I think is the grungy like rune forged something you know like it'll be it'll be the like the rune lords or whatever right um and it'll be a bunch of rune and power dwarves and possible power armor ask or and or um golems I could see them kind of going either away which differentiates them from everybody that we've seen thus far from sky airships and firesliders um and and also dispossessed um and it helps dispossess still kind of like live in their own spot in cities um and yeah and then lumeneth because of course like you and I both put lumeneth on our maybe list I'll defend mine first because a bunch of people were like why my answer is because enough here two points make a line like I think either you're going to get the tyrannic faction this year which would necessitate a new book okay right like or they're going to have just a third release of this nonsense but another temple yeah another temple we're on this train uh and we're probably going to get our water temple right like yes I just think there's they they've the the nature of these lumeneth releases is that I don't they have all the reasons to keep releasing them like between the other temples a lot of people play the army it actually has like I don't know like it seems to have a good meta representation it seems to have good sales I can't stand it uh but and it needs next in the meta not that that drives this right they would have known this when they planned this I think they're just planning this big release strategy to like big it bring to bring in these elves as a major force in fact right right right but you know hey if it gives them a chance to rewrite the whole nonsense that is the the lumeneth book uh I would be all for it like I would love it see this to me is wrapped up with malaria and so-called umbraneth and expectations around when that's going to release which I think will be 2023 where I'm still going back to that one of the most interesting narrative arcs we've had I think in the history of AOS was slanesh being bound by the malaria and technology you know by the brothers and and we've never really have gotten sort of a I would think as like where that truly became the focal point of the narrative and where you have you know malaria and mirath the slanesh techless tyrian all coming together that feels like addition change or like leading up to you could have like a period leading up to an addition change I mean all I'm getting at this feels like 2023 all of this stuff a the next wave of slanesh the tyronic wave a probably malaria's elves before that hits early 2023 that stuff on the tail end of 2023 early 2024 leading into an addition change in 2024 you know okay yeah it's kind of where I'm out with all this stuff martin are you saying I he's martin said I will be my phone if lumeneth do you make a third appearance to me now be my phone do you mean like eat my phone is that what you're saying I don't I don't know what you're saying there martin I also hey chuck what's up buddy you better get so yeah I mean my answer is it just it to me it just feels like the this is the you know a lot of people are like oh another marine release or another stormcast release or whatever even though like the past three years there haven't actually been that many stormcast releases to me I admit I have the same bias towards lumeneth I just assume that they're just going to keep this is where we live like we live in lumeneth world we're getting another lumeneth book this year before it was it was stormcast every year now it's lumeneth every I just think that's the new it's all openly admit that this to me feels the same thing as like the uh uh as the reason I said scaven don't get a model refresh right right uh all right so tyler you and I had flesh eater courts and this one to me feels like like that this should happen right right doesn't it so flesh eater courts is the fifth oldest book counting idk right um so but like fec just feels like they it's it's ready for an update right uh definitely yeah like I said there's a couple of room room at least a couple rumor images images that look like they're flesh eater courts and yeah just exactly what he said it's not been in any of the rumors so far that I've seen flesh eater courts for next year I've heard nothing about them but yeah it seems like an obvious one so that's why I just put it in maybe as opposed to likely but yeah okay yeah I this one felt like a strong maybe to me it is a very old book it is a very easy faction into it's always stayed relatively popular like it just to me it's it felt like it has a really cool story that really grabs people like it kind of ticks a lot of boxes the models are cool um none of them are too old right like that it's problematic other than the uh vargolf obviously um you know I I just bought an entire army for my son of flesh eater courts but we really hope that it sticks around uh zenisai the business said I anticipate more of my armies becoming obsolete and everyone cheering it on oh that's sad zen is it zenis zenis zenis I don't know what what armies are you playing okay uh so I want to I want to know um and then I'm the only one who put disciples of zeech hmm uh I thought about that then sure like they're the same age as chaos so I agree with skipping a lot of uh a lot of armies yeah but I think that they had to know the disciples of zeech book even back then two years ago they would have known that this book was off the rails yeah like it's been problematic forever yeah uh and I just feel like they're going to want to give it a redesign that was that was my take on this why it would jump the line yeah I could see that definitely old enough and it's not had a tome celestial I it's on my list of what I would expect to have one if it it's either going to get a tome celestial this year it's going to get a battle tome so yeah I think it'll just get a tome celestial but yeah we'll see it could it could certainly use an update yeah speaking of things that got a tome celestial you had the bold pick here of slaves to darkness a very new book and a very well designed book uh did have a tome celestial and so this is one of the data pieces data points I was using was if they got a tome celestial I was like nah right yeah man and and this one again it's just based on I'm sorry I'm the one being boring with a lot of these pictures again based on what we've heard so far sure where you know someone what has been accurate in part so it may give some credence to some of their others but yeah the slaves of darkness one tied into gets a co-release around q4 2022 that one seemed the most unlikely to me that's why you threw it in maybe you know at least in terms of the rumors that have been out there slave to darkness seemed the most unlikely yeah we just got when did we get that uh just a couple months ago I think we got the tome celestial update so yeah not a lot of confidence in that one I mean what I'll say is this with tome celestial a lot of people have said that um when you get a tome celestial it suggests that we're not getting a book for a while I don't know that I necessarily agree with that because tome celestials could have just easily be what's left over that hits the cutting room floor for a finished book I guess but to me I think I think they're using it pretty straightforwardly because they almost they didn't say it in as many words okay uh but what they said initially like it when they when they announced the 3.0 tome celestial I'm paraphrasing here okay but they said we're going to try to update a lot of books and people are going to get updates in either books or white dwarf through the tome celestial that was basically their wording in the first one okay something like that which said to me they were making a pretty clear either or statement right of like this was their method for they looked at their calendar they said okay these are the books we know we're doing which are these are people who aren't in the first 12 to 18 months that we want to throw out a tome celestial floor and that's how they picked yep right like yep I I think it's pretty straightforward uh Mike said Havens how old is the current KO book KO right now came out in January 2020 so it is about two years old oof yep it's a disappointing time uh all right uh anything else we want to say on the maybe anything else anybody thought about with maybe items on your terrain pack idea I just figured that's going to be part of the general sandbook 2022 we'll get there that could be a way yeah yeah that could be a way to do it sure I have a related guess in there but yeah okay I mean that's it I like the idea of them yeah having a dedicated kind of focus on but at the same time like we don't need a whole lot to fix terrain like it's pretty pretty simple like we pretty much I think already know what we need uh so I'm not sure we need to yeah have a have a separate piece for this just need to get it done yep agreed all right let's get to our wish list now it's time to strap on the true tinfoil hats uh this is pure like whatever here's ponder ball like it's time to to ponder the ball and see what we've got uh okay here's my wish list scaven with a complete re-sculpt they're back again I had to sneak it in okay so uh my I put on my wish list here bone daddy's two with a new centerpiece edition not that Catechrose is a bad centerpiece he isn't okay but yes we could have archers we could have ballastee we could have uh a big giant corpse monster you could have a big giant kalita to go with you I don't I think that I don't think she's coming back but I appreciate it but like you could have a big giant bone monster like their war engine okay yeah um and that could be one of the centerpieces yep right again I thought a lot about like where could we where could we sneak a release into right yep uh disciples zinches exactly the same age Kevin they zinch and kao were released together they're both january 2020 oh yeah they were uh yeah it's one of those stark uh things so to me that would be such a great way to go for bone daddies to like release the new book put out six new kits like so bow skeletons a ballastee a big war engine right and like yeah man we've got that that's something interesting there yeah right yeah some certainly they want to cross bow skeletons I'd be cool with that I'm fine with that all that'd be cool I'd love like if they were going to do crossbow skeletons uh I would want them to be like the old what were they like volans venitors or whichever the dogs of war unit was with like the big shields in front of the crossbows I think that'd be more of like a sort of military formation type of crossbow yeah yeah they I was going to say is that there was a video this year last year when Blitzen together where Phil Kelly talked about how they have a hell of a lot more luminous on the way more or less was what he said and conveyed that very clearly and OBR may not have as much on the way as lumina but it certainly feels like you know they've got a lot that they're sitting on that they could roll out with this new you know this new faction they've they've built this kind of new design aesthetic so yeah you could easily see that yeah how can Phil Kelly say that and you not know that another lumina book is coming sure indeed uh boy oh boy doesn't it feel like that yes indeed it does um and yeah like I I think that uh just for you Tristan they could also sneak a chariot in there so we could have some some OBR chariots we could just truly make this completely cannibalize everything out of out of out of Tomb Kings give them chariots sure make it crossbows you're right it can't be archers it has to be crossbows with a poofies right with a big shield in front it's uh and then like a big giant but not just a normal human bone giant no just like some war engine like somebody mentioned like a battering ram yes all of that it's a giant slash battering ram which could that could that already exists by the by like Skaven have a melee artillery battering ramp piece the the uh the pestilence you know uh the center yes thank you the giant sensor the plague sensor is that it just falls on people in melee and does a bunch of mortal wounds um so that the technology's already there right uh and so yeah I think that'd be great just cannibalize the rest of it but make it like newer versions of it not just a normal bone giant this thing not just archers you know military crossbowmen yeah like go all the way yeah uh okay Brian SS no OBR get the tank the Vince wanted storm gas to get I'll take a bone tank you think I don't want a bone tank you absolutely bet I want a bone tank uh I think that the uh like Catacross needs to get more creative yes plague for instance I was trying to think of thank you the um the uh like Catacross needs to get more creative with how he's shaping these bones like heck yeah bone tank all right Tom this is where you put realms for specific terrain and book you want to talk right so my deep my deep cut here was if we're going to jump realms in the GHB this was my proposal like if we're going to do a different realm with each GHB then this is where we roll out like a release that corresponds with the with the general handbook that has another like a set a box set of terrain kind of like the forbidden lore box which was a bunch of endless spells but you get basically like a table's worth of relevant specific terrain for boogoo or whatever right love it amazing then and like every time we roll out a GHB they could roll out another box of this terrain specific to that season yeah yeah I love this concept I really fantastic yeah I mean I shared this with the head of the studio that does terrain yeah back in 2019 because you and I had talked about it for years yeah and I was at Wurmerfest and I was walking around and it was that like they're all like most of the designers are just sitting around talking to people and I was just like oh hey did you make this train it was when they introduced the um the the temple the temple kit yeah I was like oh do you make this and he's like yeah yeah I'm the one who designed this and I was like all right let me talk to you about realm specific terrain boxes I just tried to sell him on the idea that was about two years ago so we can get that in the pipeline by now so yeah I mean like that's right right where we're at so I'm saying that especially because now we're seeing this like centering all of the match play on a realm that it would make sense to roll out these types of things yep so uh and and yeah and then that corresponds potentially with Vince's idea of a train book so that's related as well um and then my my deep cut this is my uh you know I had to have my Hawaiian over concept um of of really out there ideas and for my wish list I want a cities of death book based on the kingdoms within shyish that is a um that is truly a uh uh cities of sigmar esk book right um but what it does is it takes a bunch of different factions um of like so it it it it functionally creates a cities of sigmar out of death that also includes a bunch of like cultists of negash and stuff like that so do you remember all the death mages like that many faction that doesn't exist but exists technically out there um and it takes that and blows that up into like a bunch of like death cultists of negash and wizards and necromancers right and then that's your core and then based on the different like one city could be olfenkarn right and in that city you have a bunch of virkos vampire soul blight that you can mix in in addition to maybe some generic vampires that can be in every death city that can some generic night haunt that can be in every death city you know and so what you do is you create a new book out of a bunch of kits we already have in death that makes sense within the world and then a smaller line of like humans that is the like the binding agent to all these cities right so then you can a great idea i don't think they'll ever take a swing that bold i really don't but man i would love it if it was like cities of sigmar type style book but also death is your one and quarter and the whole thing is under the death grand alliance yeah like human worshipers of death like these people are alive right but they mix undead with them right that'd be amazing like it's a super great idea like this is not a city like this is not a cities of sigmar but let's be very clear no i'm saying this design design style wise is what i'm saying yeah yeah design style so like one quarter of one of the cities could be obr right not to not to hold on not to make it an ongoing joke but this could be a gold faction tom i mean it could be like originally i had done my hollow mourn city which was like i was going to be sculpting it to be both death and cities of sigmar until i do both but i think that this could actually be its own thing and and it would it would be something new in death like one of the challenges i think we have within the death grand alliance is that it's such a static alliance sure it's unchanging maybe um and so and there's not a lot of places we could go as far as a book right like we we could maybe go to like creatures of the night werewolves or something but in general like we've we've covered a lot of the stuff and so i think this would be a really interesting concept within that and again we have the nascent elements of it with the with the death lords or the the death mages or whatever that mini faction the mini dangler faction was sure like the necromancer sits in and the like the corpse cart and stuff like that so the um uh what's the flying chariot uh the um with a mortis engine right which has a necromancer on top of it like so again we have elements of this and so we could just do a blended death with a handful of kits that merge all of that blended stuff so that's quite cool uh so tyler you had said better points update mechanism i can't help but agree with this please stop putting points updates in half for free and half in a book it's silly um like just and and by the way i think this is both delivery mechanism and what you're actually changing like the winter points updates were just you know nonsense basically i mean there's a few good things in there but it was i don't know let's be super generous it was 80 nonsense right yeah yeah yeah this is a very tame wish list compared like yeah i kind of threw this together at the end me not uh need to better prepare next time the uh but i mean we talked a little bit about this it's just the the fact updates balance update that we got i mean guys it felt so just amiss the mark on the whole on points like specifically on points specifically like i i think yeah i thought the we always talked like a leash hell was pretty was good and heroic recovery was good and yeah like those were the standouts amulet needed to be changed but it wasn't the right change cool but so i don't know what exactly is the answer like what exactly we need to see but yeah what we're getting so far is not hitting the mark if you guys have any thoughts on what what specifically they should be put out as a pdf and rolled into and by the way rolled into the app that weekend yeah yeah like like i love how the update to the app is always trailing like as though the person who's doing the app update just learned about the points updates at the same time we did it like as though this isn't a behind the scenes thing like it should the points update mechanism should be a pdf announcement that happens twice a year where points are significantly balanced where points can be done because points can only solve as i said last time it's an imprecise tool that can't fix most problems but it can fix some and so yeah points changes meaningful like five points changes that's gone 10 points changes mostly gone except in the case of units you're going to repeat okay make these points changes meaningful controlled free and rolled to the app that weekend like you release the point changes on a friday by monday they're in the app technically i'm gonna get that and that's being generous okay it should happen that day there's no reason actually that they should be separately time no but i'm gonna give them until monday to be nice yeah so there's the point updates and then there's you know like we talked about how the 40k balanced data slate a really nice approach of making like here's one or two rules changes to this faction like astra militarum here's what you're getting sort of as a faction or and then war scrolls could be a part of that you know we've talked a lot about how you actually need to go in and change some more scrolls it's not just about points i would really like to see that incorporated next time around into it just like when we are three months down the road i don't expect the meta to change all that much in terms of the top and the bottom right like we're largely i think going to be in about the same place that we've been the soul and six remain the same in the top i kind of think of it at the top eight right now sort of the six plus the iron jaws and storm cast you can throw in there as well you know storm casting that anyway wouldn't get into that white storm cast data white storm cast win rate is lower than the actual potential of that army because so many people play it basically and yeah so it just it needs to quite a bit better than what we what we had seen okay and yeah so i agree with your better scenarios we already talked about it early but i do hope that this new ghp they understand that no no you you got it you figured it out your new scoring method is good do that just do that and and bury these scenarios that are like completely random and have wild point swings i'd love to have more discussion on that sometime curious tom your view we don't have to do it right now but curious tom your views on this as well yeah about i mean would it be valuable to have some missions that do not have the standardized scoring again like the example of border war was the quintessential age of sigmar mission in 1.0 border war had four points one point and two points each in the middle so you could get a sizable swing with that it was one of the classic missions with that scoring yeah let me say this like as part of a 13 or 12 or 13 dozen bakers doesn't like i know you're asking tom but i'm going to answer this real fast yes of course you want three or four oddball scenarios in the back okay yeah like you're not wrong marking territory or something right where it's like you control three marking territory just works terribly with seismic shift yeah right yeah like a potential simple fix to marking territory i'll do it at the prime objectives well prime or do it where whomever so whomever is going second gets to the choice to burn but you don't win immediately you allow the player going first yeah to have a chance to right you just need that would help it quite a bit but like the conceptually marking territory is a great scenario execution wise obviously it leaves a lot to be desired but you should have like that doesn't use the standard scoring right right and and so should stuff like that exist yes of course like there should be three to four oddball scenarios absolutely right but there should be eight that are playing with the core mechanic in an interesting way having you make interesting decisions on where you're positioning and and but yet keeping the points relatively controlled yep yep that's the bounce and we're the other way around right now that's the right now i would agree i agree with i agree with that vence yep yep it is the other way around all right books here we go uh i'm also taking a city's swing here uh cities did get a tome celestial so that's why i put this on my wish list uh and i would like but i want to see the dawn bringer crusades cities too right where the cities go out of the cities and it's you know the stuff like that by the way this this could be a non invalidation of the old book it could just be like literally a part two but i i think they'd probably they don't really have a history of doing that so fine you just update the city's rules as well at the same time but also put in new rules for having a dawn bringer crusade army which is not necessarily like that comes from a certain city and so has different types of options or whatever um i put maw tribes here because i do want to see maw tribes get a new book and i i think i honestly after our discussion tyler i think you might have convinced me to move it up into maybe is my honest answer and now let me talk about beasts here i mentioned beasts earlier okay yep i think the rumors of beasts getting folded into slaves is complete total nonsense just total nonsense oops so yeah i think that is like whatever rumor that was a part of i think is just complete and total bunk now look maybe and you know maybe i'll be eating these words but if you ask me on money i just think it's a garbage rumor that's not true i think beasts have an extremely unique identity in the world i don't think they should move into destruction i understand that they have a lot of destructionish elements they're definitely chaos they're like pure chaos that's the whole point they worship chaos in a way that is almost more pure than any of the normal mortals right yep and beasts has plenty of good models and kits in it like it's got plenty of plastic yes some of them are old yes some of them could use an update right no doubt almost all of what's that almost all of them i don't know about that i mean sure some yes some no i mean some of the monster kits are honestly fine you could re-box those and they're fine like are you telling me like the gorgon or something as a problematic kit no that no the gorgon is one of the kits that i said was not a problem okay but basically all the fine cast and all the gore and all the unborn yeah there's some fine cast still not around which obviously that needs to go regular gore probably down right and but beasts has so much potential right and everybody always like some part of being a beast player is believing you're always about to be squatted i think that's the fraternions until they did well sure um like i'm not saying i just i think there's a lot of they see the audience it's a big determined fan base right and it's an army with a huge amount of potential with a with like a uh a 35 to 50 percent re-sculpt or something like that let's call it six to ten kits i don't know somewhere in that range so in the doable range right in fact slightly under what they've done when they when they do actually a sculpting release right because those have often been like a dozen kits right um this is like this could be you know yes you want to redo the shag off you know stuff like that right like there's clearly things that need to be done well you would do like dragon ogres in a pair two two dragon ogres and the shag off is built out of one of the dragon ogres and you can take them as a single like we've already had that tack with the most yeah yeah yeah exactly you make them bigger more impressive by the way this could also be a sneaky home for a cool centerpiece because beasts love monsters right right and you could do a whole new giant monster for them like a truly destruction destruction monster for them like a really big gross four to five hundred point monster right and uh and and and that could be a place where you sneak a centerpiece in right um what are you re-sculpt probably gore shaggoths the cockatrice um the centigore if you're gonna keep them i think i think the best gore kit is still pretty good but you could you could do new best of gores they could be awesome as a re-sculpt so i'll throw them in chariots and probably like the regular beast lord i think maybe yeah anyways something like that at least probably a couple more i'm forgetting off the top of my head but um i would love to see like one you can fit a centerpiece in it two it has a huge amount of narrative potential and story potential in this specific world like they can get in there and play the beast game in the beast realm even though they're not destruction right yeah and they could be such a good part of this story i just think i think they are they they are pretty popular red wizard said where oh the jabber slide yeah thank you um red wizard said where did they fall in the popularity survey i around the middle i don't remember i'd have to go look back at the various surveys i think i still have them all backed up somewhere they all got deleted uh all my data said this just got deleted when i had to flatten my computer but i'm pretty sure i have all that backed up on a drive somewhere um so that's why i want to see him i just think they are unlimited potential there's no reason to squander such an amazing army i don't think i think folding them into another thing is absolutely stupid and not going to happen let's just don't they don't make sense in slaves darkness at all at all they're their own thing and i think they will continue to be so because i think gw knows they have potential and knows there's a bunch of people who really really really really love them that's my feeling all right yeah i really hope you're right yeah so you had blades of corn all the way down here yeah actually there was a kind of the main wish list we talked a lot about fireslays i mean blades of corn like i said that's kind of on the rumors so that's why i just put it as wish list but clearly it needs an update so yeah hopefully we'll get that in 2022 just a little more i mean fireslayers like it's time to crap or get off the pot like with this with this faction sure i mean there there are a lot of folks in the tea there was a quite a bit of discussion at tga community which is really cool thanks everybody who's doing that and a number of people pointed out some awesome ideas for fireslayers apparently there's a fire queen like female like a magma queen has been talked about in the war fireslayers which i didn't know that's that's awesome i love to love to see female fireslayers uh flame spirit of grim near would be amazing obviously you know mini dross like little salamander calf would be cool i mean that it's just like yeah there's there's so much potential with this army to make it an amazing faction and i just hope that we actually see them choose a direction but then continue to take a pass on it so i mean let me just jump in tyler what i'll say is that the only chance that we get um a standalone fireslayer book that's going to be successful is if they actually invest the money to do kits yeah totally yeah absolutely um and so i think that we could get a standalone fireslayer book and it could be financially successful if we also had standalone new kits that actually supplemented the stupid inventory if we don't real quick question are you saying competitively successful or financially successful financially successful okay cool um i competitively i mean i don't know if you can fix that army i mean it would like it would just make question you could write you can you can scrap everything you could write anything like it's fine you can definitely yeah i mean they at one point they did double all the wounds of the army like that happened right um like i don't think you could take things back formulae pretty easy yeah which they go army tunnels now multiple times a game like you know you could go wild man like whatever right yeah no i'm saying financially successful um like they would have to add more like punch to the army and have a real centerpiece that's not a magma draw because even the magma draws aren't real centerpieces yeah totally yeah so yeah the idea of like they have fireslayers version of a doom anvil of doom or i mean obviously a lot of these are pulling from the past but you know they could come up with new things i mean the bones seem to be there like ever a little bit of the lore when they first came out i i think the aesthetic has promise actually it's just that it was a lot of copy paste kind of felt like a lot of copy paste cad with these three troop types and just not enough differentiation in the models i don't like the bones seem promising to me it but it's the least real faction of all of the main factions the 26 factions in this game it has three options other than a bunch of heroes like that's not a real faction and then all the heroes look identical right you have fighting hero and you have priestly hero sure uh yeah i mean aesthetically it was the lowest ranked item right i mean that's that's that's the problem yeah yeah like it's not you can have a faction with three foot units and a bunch of heat and and and like that's true they're called it's called i sell like hotcakes and they crush they crush on the aesthetics yeah but of course they're quite different than their aesthetic because they were holding down because they look real good because also a pig is very different from a brute is very different exactly exactly yeah yeah they are very different units and that's not what they got sure so and that's why i said financially i agree with you tom because right now the problem is aesthetically the in all of our surveys they've come in at the lowest end like they're the bottom bottom bottom army right so they just need something to actually like give the army some some pizzazz that's not just a bunch of naked babies and a couple chinese dragons sure yeah and i don't think that's happening with this new book by the way i don't think well that's like that's i they go one of two ways either they punt and merge it or they actually add something that's new or they just create another financial failure i suspect it's going to be option three that's where my money's at but we'll see uh all right anything else so any other wild wishlisting items that everybody wants to see folks out there in the audience what didn't we list oh you had silvaneth of course i don't think we really yeah but audience what do you want drop it in the comments what didn't we include our wishlist what do you hope to see in 2022 but go ahead tyler defend your silvaneth obvious obvious yeah it's obvious like finally fixed this faction the guys i yeah playing i've got a half dozen games in and it was always you know the uh too much going analysis paralysis especially someone like me uh but but just in general there's so much going on with that army you know it's probably right under lumineath in terms of complexity if you're really trying to get the m