Felly, rydw i ddwy moddiech cadw das y system o'i gydag rhwng i gwedangos. Yrgu gymru requirements i gael pengfail a'r sgair ei diolch i ddweudio arwythg syl Wednesday cychwyn gael gwaith i cyf grievon yma. Maen nhw'n bod i'ch gael gweithio argyfraeg ni, a'r rhai cyflwyneu diolch i gael gwaith i gael gwaith i gael gweithio argyffredig? Beiynau i gael, bywch i chi ar ei wneud â chyglweddau i dw i'r regu wins muniadol, sy'n dweud i gael gweithio ar gweithio ar gweithio ar gweithi. Felly, mae'n siŵr i'r carl, General Secretary of the Association of Scottish Police Superintendents, Andy Shanks, Deputy Procurator Fiscal, the Specialist Casework and Head of Scottish Fatalities Investigation Unit, with the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service, Assistant Chief Constable Gary Ritchie, Partnerships Prevention and Community Well-being, and Katie Miller, Director of People and Development at Police Scotland, Ms Fiona McQueen, Chair of the People Committee at the Scottish Police Authority, and David Threadgo, Chair of the Scottish Police Federation. So a warm welcome to you all. I refer members to papers 1 and 2, and I thank the witnesses who provided additional written submissions. I think we'll run this session for around about 90 minutes, and given the size of the panel, I'm going to ask everyone to be succinct in their questions and answers if possible, and if members can direct their questions to one or more witnesses, at least initially, to see how we go. I would like to begin, if I may, with an open question for all our panel members this morning, and I'll probably start from my left and work to my right. I'd like to ask a couple of points. First of all, from what we've been advised previously, it's anticipated that there are around about four officers per year to take their own lives, but at the moment there's no formal data collection on these numbers, and there have, I believe, been no fatal accident enquiries held into the circumstances to date. And this is obviously an issue to some members of the committee. So I wonder if I can ask two key questions. First of all, if that concerns you, and secondly, what do you think are the main issues that need to be addressed or processes improved around how we prevent or respond to police, officer and staff suicide? So I'll maybe come to you first of all, Stuart Carle. Thank you, convener. Firstly, in respect of the data gathering, the system that we use in Police Scotland that Director Miller will probably be able to give you more details on, it's evolved over many years, and there isn't any perfect way necessarily of gathering that data. It does produce management reports, so there's a great deal of focus on managing absence, managing injuries and accidents at work, so it seems that this is just another development that needs to be put in place or indeed some analytical work on the data we already have. In respect of the main and key issues, we know that people that take their own lives generally face a range of life pressures, and working life might be part of that. It might be said to be a tipping point. So from the superintendent's association point of view, we've got the senior managers. What we look for is good leadership, compassionate leadership that understands when people are struggling. So that might be looking at absence management as a precursor to something more serious, or it might be looking at somebody who's facing a particular pressure, be that a complaint that's being investigated or undergoing some form of life change. So we consider things such as separation and divorce, for example. We will then restrict an officer's use of firearms if there are unauthorised firearms officers. So we already have in place measures to recognise when people are facing life stresses, we probably just need to expand that more across a range of areas of policing. I know we'll come back to a lot of those points that you've raised. Andy Shanks. Yes, good morning. First of all, I'd like to say that every death by suicide is clearly a personal tragedy for that individual and for their family. In the system of death investigation that we have in this country, every death by suicide is reported to the Procurator Fiscal for investigation. And I can assure the committee that every death by suicide, including those involving police officers and police staff, are thoroughly investigated as part of that process. And the outcome of those investigations are shared with the brief relatives, as you might expect. I know that the focus of the committee has been very much on failed accident inquiries, understandably, just by way of context. I think it's fair to point out that failed accident inquiries are just one part of our system of death investigation in this country. And indeed a relatively small proportion of the deaths that are investigated every year ultimately result in a failed accident inquiry being held. So, for example, last year we had over 14,000 deaths reported to the Crown Office in Procurator Fiscal Service and we had a total of 51 failed accident inquiries that were carried out. So, the vast majority of deaths that are investigated don't result in failed accident inquiries and the vast majority of deaths by suicide that are investigated don't result in failed accident inquiries. But that's not to say that they are not investigated, they are thoroughly and diligently by staff at the Crown Office in Procurator Fiscal Service. And as I say, the outcome of those investigations are shared with family members. Again, to provide some reassurance to the committee, that investigation will also extend to examining whether that person's employment or duties played a part in their decision ultimately to take their own life. Thank you for that. I think that it is helpful and important for members to just understand some of the other processes that are around circumstances of a suicide in addition to FAI as an option. Thank you very much. ACC Richie. Thank you very much and good morning. I'd just like to reiterate what my colleagues have said there about recognising the tragic nature of any incident where someone takes their own life. It's keenly felt across the service. It's immediately reported into the executive and we are very well cited as soon as this occurs so that we can intervene. If need be and commission some action as a result of the incident itself, both in respect of the investigation and liaison with the family, but also taking consideration across the service of the impact that one of the death of one of our colleagues has. I think that you asked if the figure for a year concerns me and it does obviously because of the figure on its own but I think also, and this is something that we are keenly aware of and are working towards about how we actually collect and record and maintain that data and how we share that because I'm not sure that we have strong definitions across the system, not just within policing but within Public Health Scotland about what that constitutes and I think it'd be really important that when we're speaking about suicides and deaths by suicides that we are all talking about the same thing and recording from the same data set. So that's the first point of concern for me and that's something that I say that the service is keenly aware of and looking to address appropriately. In respect of what needs to be done, I think I've noted down a few points here and it starts obviously with training right at the start when we enter into the organisation about, and a lot of this we are doing already. In respect of our officers having awareness of the stresses that they're likely to face and the resilience that they're going to be required to show and the help that's available when things get too much. All of our officers receive trauma training when they enter the service and so that helps them to spot signs of stress and the signs of anxiety not just from members of the public but also from their colleagues and again we're looking at how we can enhance that. The overall welfare offer of the service as well as something that's constantly evolving and again I'll not go into detail on that because Katie, I'll be stealing Katie's thunder there I think if I do. For us as well it's intervention points and what that intervention looks like when we identify an officer or a colleague who appears to be suffering from anxiety or stress or depression and recognising what we can do as a service to alleviate that both in the workplace and at home. Following the event itself obviously as I say the tragic circumstances are felt across the organisation but we need to make sure that the investigation that we undertake is professional and substantial and meets the requirements of the report that we will submit to the Crown but also the support to the family in the first instance as well. Then as I mentioned before the impact across the officers and immediate colleagues, the shift, the supervisors and their workplace and wherever they're located that's keenly felt and that has to be recognised as part of your considerations as has the impact across the force because as I say these incidents are becoming widely known very quickly across the service. And the causes for them are often speculated about but as I say everybody's got a concern and then at the end of that it's about capturing the lessons that we learn from each and every circumstance, everyone's different, every instance is different, everyone's a tragedy. The issues that can lead to someone taking their own life are as you know complex but we need to understand what impact the workplace or the stresses and the incidents that police officers deal with on a regular basis has had on an individual if any and if that's a contribution to them taking their own life at that time. That's very much indeed. Kitty Miller. Thank you, convener. I'd echo what my colleagues have said so far. I think if I can, can I take your second question first around potential improvements and the ambition of Police Scotland is to recognise the unique role of policing. So there's no doubt that there is a lot of evidence that demonstrates that the nature of policing does increase stresses to individuals and that's undoubtedly kind of there for us to work from. I think what we need to do though is to look at from entry, so at the point when somebody joins as a police constable and they start their probation training throughout career and looking at points in career particularly around some of the evidence that will show to particular incidences where we know that the research will show that actually those stresses and likely impacts on individuals, anxiety, depression, alcohol, dependence, post traumatic stress etc. That we really proactively engage colleagues during that. I think that for me it is around we are doing a lot of work in this space and I'm sure we'll come on to that. But it's around being able to give the evidence and assurance that what we're doing is the right thing for colleagues at the right time and that it is making the difference that it can make. I think that in terms of the data we've taken a commitment that we will build that into the system which Stuart referred to. So we will build that into the HR system so that going forward we will do a retrospective manual exercise to look at the data from colleagues who have died in service and therefore going forward we will be able to produce that data. I think the nuance for the data though is not just about the number as we know because of the complexity that sits with this. It's about us being able to determine then what the circumstances were in relation to that particular incident for the individual. It's never black and white in terms of being able to say it was personal, it was work, it was something else. Even the Samaritans talked to the complexity of this but we want to be able to drill down on that data to make sure then that we are being preventative and person centred. So you have that commitment from us, that development is in the pipeline and we will also introduce the ability to be able to look at data around self-harming as well which I know is something else that England and Wales have moved forward on. Thanks very much, that's a helpful update and I'm sure we'll come back to that. Fiona McQueen, thank you very much for inviting me to be here on behalf of the authority and again echoing my colleagues the deep distress that people feel before they take their own life and that of their families is something that's unimaginable. So the fact that police officers take their own life is clearly of concern to me. I think there are a number of areas, I think there's a lot of work prepared from Gary and Katie about what Police Scotland do to support officers and staff in terms of their welfare and wellbeing. As science and evidence in this area grows then we know that this can be prevented in many many cases and we know that with appropriate intervention that can take place. So what I think the authority is expecting of Police Scotland in terms of reporting is to ensure that there is an end-to-end process from probation to exiting the service that takes that holistic point of view. We know that we send our police officers and staff into areas that are going to cause stress and distress. I think what we do need to do is pick out areas that are preventable, so lengthy waits and complaints and conduct cases for instance, or other areas where there is perhaps discrimination. So we know what we need to eliminate things that are there that we can do and then the armour metaphorically speaking that we want to put round our officers and staff again we know that what needs to be done and also when people are in distress we know that we need to catch that and support them to get back into full health. So I think there is deep concern in the authority about the level of suicide. We know that there are actions that can be taken and that is what's happening within Police Scotland and Katie is working diligently to make sure that she will be able to bring a report to the authority on that end-to-end from entrance to exit to make sure that everything is done that will show demonstrably and we'll be looking for that as evidence as that's reported to us in the authority. Evidence of improved mental health and wellbeing of officers and staff and reduced harm. That's very much. Last but by no means least, David Redgold. Many thanks, Gerviart. On behalf of the SPF, thank you for the opportunity to give evidence and again it goes without saying that our condolences go to any colleague in any member of their family who have been affected in this way. Clearly I have spent a great deal of time researching the submissions that have been made and I would like to highlight a couple of key points, not necessarily around the data collection as that is not primarily a function for the SPF but the sort of interventions and preventions piece so that we are looking to try and address these issues before they come to the point where an officer feels that they need to take that step. If you want to use the phrase catch it, how do we do that? In seeking evidence from my colleagues across the country prior to today, there are a number of key areas where I think that collectively we have to do better and they are around mainly training and I appreciate everything that's been said so far. If you look at submission from ASPs around lack of training for the superintendent rank, that filters right through the service so that a document for example of giving suicide guidance is not suicide prevention training. The questions that I have asked around the awareness of supervisors right through the ranks across Scotland in this area, the information that they have, the steps that they feel, the tools that they have to be able to make positive interventions in this area largely do not exist as far as they are concerned and they are only ever reacting to situations based on instinct rather than necessarily based on training. I think that there is a key area that we need to address. There is a distinct lack of engagement amongst colleagues across Scotland as far as some of the wellbeing provision that's been talked around. Either due to the perception that people are embarrassed to seek that type of help, they don't want to because they feel that they'll be stigmatised by their colleagues and others. We have a lot of work to do in that area to address those challenges to make sure that the support that does exist is appropriate and utilised by all. I think that we have got real challenges in the organisation as far as our delivery for the employee assistance programme. Overwhelmingly, almost unanimously, the feedback that I have is that that is not fit for purpose supervisors who would be the first point of contact whether they are operational or in more specialised roles, do not understand the concept of that and if they do make that move to seek assistance from our EAP, then the provision is not suitable for their individual that they are trying to help. The default then is that we refer to charities for assistance that we already have evidence have become overwhelmed and have asked us to stop referring so many people to them because that is not their core function. I think that we also have to address demand within the service. The relentless nature of policing means that if we talk about one aspect of it, which is the wellbeing champions, we are looking at a system that is grossly underused by colleagues across Scotland. If it exists in real life at all, I am quite unsure at the moment and I know that there is some work on going to refresh that programme, but the moment is a tool to prevent police officer stress, which may well escalate to suicide, it does not exist. I think that you are probably getting the sense that we have a lot to do in this area in the prevention piece, fully acknowledging the external stresses outwith the police that may lead ultimately to an officer taking their own life. In May last year, ACC John Hawkins was asked how many police officers died from suicide and he said that he would be happy to provide that to the committee. That has not been forthcoming, but in your evidence so far, ACC Richie, you said that there were approximately four deaths per year by suicide. Where is that data coming from? My respect, Mr Finlay, I did not say that. I was repeating what the convener said at the start. Do you have a number? We do have a number and our number does not align with that number. Our number has passed three years. It has passed three years as there have been five deaths from suicide involving certain police officers. In my opening comments or my opening question, I made reference to an indication. I think that that possibly came from at least one, if not two, of the submissions that we received. There were anticipated to be around about four deaths by suicide per year, but that was not a firm figure. It was an anticipated figure. Just to put that on the record, you included that in your response. That is where that figure has come from. Over the past three years from our figures, it has been five. That surprised me, because I know of more cases than that. Has that been done by the Scottish Police Authority that Katie referred to earlier? That is through a manual trial of our databases on cause of death. In a letter dated June 1, Martin Evans of the SPA said that following a spate of police officer suicides, the SPA, and I quote, explored the broader issue of suicides with Police Scotland. Based on what Police Scotland told the SPA and his letter stated, I quote, there was nothing to suggest that any of the recent cases were caused directly by the pressure of work. Do Police Scotland stand by the claim? Having looked at the cases recently, we have all acknowledged that the causes of suicide are complex. It is often not just one factor. For me to sit here today and say that there was absolutely no work pressure involved in the consideration for someone to take their own life would be incredibly arrogant of me. What has been said is that, in respect of the investigation, there was nothing apparent. The results of the investigation would suggest that the individual had been suffering from work pressures or had been under investigation or had any workplace concerns that had been notified to the service beforehand. Mr Finlay, you can say that in none of the occasions that workplace stresses had not contributed, I do not think that it would be ever in a position to say that. Despite that, what Police Scotland apparently told the SPA? That is what has been presented, that nothing from the investigation had thrown up any indication that there had been workplace stresses in the majority of cases. I am just a weeb uncomfortable about speaking about such small numbers here that we are getting to the point and perhaps talking about individual cases. It is really important that we understand perhaps where process has had room for improvement to date. I am quite keen for the session to look at how we do that going forward rather than looking back. I think that it is absolutely appropriate that we look at where the issues are but I think that I would like us to really focus on where improvement and changes can be made. Speaking with the families of police officers who have died from suicide and who have attempted suicide, they are concerned that there is a lack of sincerity from Police Scotland and the Scottish Police Authority to actually record these cases and indeed seek answers about why they have occurred. What would you say in response to them? I might put that to Fiona McQueen. First of all, Mr Finlay, I am incredibly sorry that families feel there is a lack of sincerity from the Scottish Police Authority and Police Scotland about the desire to learn from death by suicide and the contributing factors that happen within the day-to-day work of all of our officers and staff. I am very, very sorry that that is how they feel. We would be expecting, so we have done quite a lot of work. The authority convened an event in April and we know that it is something that the Criminal Justice Committee is interested in and we will be reporting to you later on in the year about the work that we have taken. You cannot learn from something unless you are open and honest with what is happening. If, when there has been death by suicide by officers and staff, then it is important and I would be expecting at the People Committee on behalf of the authority to have reports on what action has been taken, what lessons have been learned and recognising that there are complexities in people's personal lives but also in work lives and we all respond in a different way. But recognising that and the deep distress that both the members of staff feel and their loved ones is something that we would want to prevent if possible but certainly minimise. We are expecting reporting in from Police Scotland on that end-to-end process, looking at improvements, making sure that death by suicide is considered, learned from in a way that we can that is respectful and does not cause additional trauma to families. We are also very much focusing on, if we are going to make a difference here, the only way that we are going to make a difference is by making a change. We know that we are sending our workforce out into difficult circumstances and I think that David and Stuart have been quite clear about education and training. We know that toolkits exist so we need to make sure that Police Scotland is arming their staff with that ability, the leadership teams to do that and that is certainly what the authority is expecting, reporting in from Police Scotland on what the outcome measures will be and progress towards that but also the effectiveness of what change that they are putting in place has on improved wellbeing and reduced distress of staff. The Scottish Police Federation wrote to us in January this year to say that Police Scotland and the Scottish Police Authority are defensive in denial and suggests nothing to see here. It was written by one of your predecessors, Mr Threadgold, but I wonder if you think in the past three months or so, five months or so, you have seen a change in approach from those organisations and whether things are likely to improve, get confidence that they will improve. My experience is that there is an absolute willingness from the force executive and those that I have met with on the authority to really get into serious conversations about the issues beyond suicide and there is a willingness for that to change. There is no question in my mind about that. Of course the reality is that so much of the change that I have no doubt that we would all like to see is predicated on the finance being available to deliver it and that is a real issue when we are talking about this. If you look at it structurally and organisationally, you would expect that the people who are most likely to positively intervene in those types of situations would be, if you just look at the volume of officers within the police, sergeants, inspectors and so on. I have heard from people this morning who have said that, since they have been promoted back in 2009, they have had zero training in the identification of issues that may lead or give them concerns about their colleague staff. That would be my own experience since I have been promoted within an organisation as well. It is all very well and I think that this is a very positive forum to discuss the issues but I think that what we would all be looking for now is positive change. I stress that every meeting that I go into about every subject within policing is a priority and our ability to deliver on those is largely predicated by the finance. It is not the will to do it. It is the money and the time to deliver it. We will move on to some other members and then we will come back to Mr Finlay. I am going to bring in Jamie Greene now. Good morning, panel, and I appreciate that this is a very difficult subject for those watching the session. I think that the comment made by Ms McQueen was that you cannot learn and move forward unless there is openness, honesty and transparency about what has happened thus far. Therefore, the bit I am struggling with is this assumption that of those who have tragically taken their lives of the last few years who were serving officers, that there has never been any identified public or open link between what they do for a living and what happened to them. I just find that incredible to believe and the reason for that quite simply is that we as a committee have met former and even serving officers who have been very frank and honest with us and private that they have either tried to take their own lives or have thought about it quite considerably as a direct result of the circumstance they find themselves in by being a serving police officer. It was not relationship problems, it was not money problems, it was not historic mental health issues, it was directly related to the circumstance that those individuals found themselves in. So we know it to be true, the families know it to be true. Why is no one willing to admit that that is the case? There surely is a link. I am not picking anyone, but if you want to respond, please do. I know what you are getting at, Mr Greene, and I appreciate that. Of course, my sympathies always go out to the families that have been left bereaved by the tragic circumstances in which an individual police officer on the list takes her life. All I can do is reiterate that they are fully investigated and reported to the Crown, and that includes, it is not done by workplace colleagues, it is done in times where major investigation teams are highly trained detectives, we engage fully with the family, we appoint family liaison officers when it is appropriate so that we can get a full picture. Not just to the circumstances that led up to someone taking their own life, but also because sometimes there might be some very apparent reasons for it, perhaps communicated in a note or a sort of recent history or whatever, there can be. We will also investigate why that day, why did that officer choose to take their own life on that occasion, if there have been long-standing problems. The investigation is really quite significant and substantial. I do not think that it is a denial by the service, it is simply an honest reporting of the results of the investigation and if there was workplace stresses involved and if there was workplace considerations involved we would be open about it, we absolutely would be. But if the information and the evidence coming from the investigation does not indicate that, and again I will repeat what I said, I am not saying that workplace stresses are not a factor in someone's mental wellbeing, I have not been a police officer for 30 years, I can appreciate that, I can assure you. I am saying that the results of the investigation do not highlight that as a factor when we report it to the Crown Office. Maybe it is a question for both Police Scotland and the Crown. Have there been any patterns that have emerged and I do not want to get into specifics of cases, I think that would be unfair on those individuals and their families, but for example is there a pattern emerging where people are identifying as being in a place of severe trauma, for example if they are suspended on investigation by the force, if they have already been signed off. If they have not worked due to physical or mental ill health or if they have recently experienced trauma in the workplace, and again not in the specific cases but in the generality, have there been any patterns of marriage that point towards specific factors as being triggers that could be addressed and could be spotted? No, I think that the easy answer to that, but that is a bit more complex than that and as I said we get towards the realms of me being a bit uncomfortable because the numbers are so few that it is going to be hard to discern a pattern in any case and if we start talking about things like that then we are getting on the cusp of being able to identify individuals. It might be helpful for me to come in on that point, speaking in more general terms, without wishing to identify specifics here, but during the course of any investigation by the Crown into death by suicide obviously it is carefully, extensively done, the information is shared with the brief relatives as you might expect. Part of that investigation is with a view to identifying whether a fatal accident inquiry requires to be held. I know that Lord Advocate wrote to the committee earlier in the year setting out the legislative means by which a fatal accident inquiry would normally be held and it wouldn't normally be under the mandatory provisions under section 2 of the 2016 act. It would typically fall to be considered as a discretionary fatal accident inquiry under section 4 of the act and really that section in essence says that whether it's been a sudden suspicious and unexplained death a fatal accident inquiry can be held where the Lord Advocate considers it to be in the public interest. For my point of view as an investigator consideration of the public interest here is the key factor. I said earlier on that if there are any indications of workplace factors being an issue that would form part of the consideration absolutely. If there's evidence to suggest that there are wider systematic failures that would be a relevant consideration. That may well favour a fatal accident inquiry being held. Similarly, if it's felt that an inquiry is necessary in order to identify steps that would prevent future death of a similar nature that would be a relevant consideration. I think it's also worth pointing out that although every death and every death by suicide is investigated separately and individually, when we're considering that issue of whether the public interest would favour a fatal accident inquiry we do look at other deaths of a similar nature. If collectively they would give rise to significant public concern then there may well be a fatal accident inquiry in the public interest and there is a mechanism in the act that would allow a single inquiry to be held in relation to multiple deaths. If I may just finish, there's one point that I haven't mentioned in that consideration as well as obviously the views of the nearest relatives which are very significant in these instances. It's not ultimately determinative because the Advocate makes that decision independently but if they have a view then absolutely we take that view into account. Others have said, and I agree with it completely, that there are a range of factors that may contribute towards someone's decision to take their own lives. Some of those are complex, some are sensitive, some are highly personal to that individual. So I don't think it's surprising that in some instances the brave relatives don't favour a fatal accident inquiry being held because they don't want necessarily those personal issues to be examined in a public forum and I think that's something to be respected as well. Absolutely, as is entirely there, prerogative. Moving forward perhaps though I had a specific ask as to why or some recommendations for example to make things easier moving forward. There are two things which I believe do not happen at the moment if someone has been identified as suffering from mental ill health and has been signed off sick. One is that information is not shared with the SPF. I presume that's for data protection or other reasons but I wondered if that's an issue. I'll maybe ask David to chip in because that perhaps would lead that individual to seeking some council outside of the Employer Assistance programme which we've heard a lot of criticism about. The other is if there is any merit in the introduction or reintroduction of full-time welfare officers within the force. You are right to say that routinely we are not notified within the SPF who operate a separate database from Police Scotland just for the information of the committee. We are not routinely told of members of staff who are off long-term sick or the nature of their absence. Our knowledge of individuals within Police Scotland who have got some kind of issue whether that be ill health or misconduct or whether it comes from our dealings with them in that particular case. Whether I think that would be a good step or not, I believe that we could probably enhance the provision that is provided by Police Scotland for an individual who found himself in any particular set of circumstances but I'd be very careful in committing to being the primary consideration for that officer. The employer being Police Scotland has got the ultimate responsibility for that member of staff. We would support that. I think that would be where I would like to go with that particular question. For example, at the time when someone has been signed off or has been relieved of duties for whatever reason, they'd be signposted to a number of places they could seek help. Your organisation being one of them but there are others, of course. That sounds quite helpful. I was going to pick up on the wellbeing champions I think was your second point. Welfare officers? Welfare officers, yes. So we currently have approximately 130 in place and the strategic leadership board have approved us increasing that to circa 236. So that's based on a proportion of representation across different divisions. So we're under way at the moment with recruitment into those roles and as you'd expect we do a lot of wraparound training for those roles and as part of that agreement we have agreed to ring fence protected time for each of those individuals so that they can undertake their role and also undertake training. So I think one of the key pieces that we've had back from colleagues is around peer-to-peer support and that helping to break down stigma and to have conversations at the point before something becomes a key issue. In fact a lot of the evidence will show that quite often it is family, friends or closest colleagues that recognise a change in behaviour, a breakdown in relationships etc. So actually that peer-to-peer support is really important so that they play a key part I think Fiona and the People Committee will rightly be challenging us going forward on what's the evidence then around these roles. What's the difference they make? How are they supporting colleagues? What's the visibility of that channel for colleagues in order to get support etc. And what the training is we invest? Thank you, that's helpful. Thank you convener. Thank you very much Jamie. Can you bring in Rona Mackay followed by Pauline Rona? Thank you convener. If I could just David Thredgo pick up on something you said a moment ago. You operate a different data system from Police Scotland. Has it always been the case and why is that? I couldn't tell you when it came into being. Certainly in my time as a full-time officer which is in excess of four years now we have always maintained a separate database of police officers. We operate a separate email so that the ending of our email address is different and that will simply be so that Police Scotland cannot access our data. There's no more to it than that. What sort of data do you keep on your personal data? Well yeah, Officer Deals Home addressed the circumstances. A case management system if you like where if you're the subject of a misconduct investigation we would retain any information relevant to that. But it can also be extended through ill health retirals or any other aspect of our business from that sort of high end type of inquiry right through to a general inquiry that somebody might make about pain conditions. I think it was yourself that mentioned the problem of stigma and not talking and opening up. I just want to ask Katie Miller and Gary Ritchie what you concur with that but what practical steps are you taking to change the sort of culture of doing that? It's incredibly complex isn't it, particularly around stigma. I'm relatively new to Police Scotland but there's a very strong sense of culture within the organisation and it is a culture of pride, of professionalism and with that there is research that will show that some of the risk factors involved in high stress or trauma can also be around high standards and people holding themselves to those standards. I think particularly around stigma we've done a lot as have a lot of organisations around lived experience. So we had an officer recently there was a published article talking about their own mental health issues and actually how they themselves reached out for help. I think the more that we can break down conversations in the way that you would talk to somebody about a physical illness or a condition so too must we be able to around psychological and mental and emotional as well. For them not to feel that that has any detriment to a career to how colleagues view you etc. So I think there's a lot that we do but I think there's more that we need to do and in some of the correspondence the feedback that we've had is that it's taking for colleagues to come forward rather than for us as an organisation to step into a space to support them. I recognise that and I also recognise that there's more that we need to do. One of the things that we have done is to look at what we're calling resilience assessments. These are open to particular roles so we've started highlighting those roles where we know that there's a higher degree of risk factor and evidence will show us that. So you know where there's significant events in the role or there's prolonged periods where the offers are subjected to particular material for example. So these particular assessments we've had 1,101 have been requested by staff in those roles and these are very individual assessments that take them through a psychological debrief in a wellbeing as to where they are. Of those we had 555 returned. Now we obviously want to understand what happened to those that weren't returned and why because that's really important for us. But of those that were returned what then happens is they go straight into a one-to-one with an experienced counsellor and that counsellor then effectively will do a rag status on what that assessment is showing them and on the back of that rag status there is then an intensive one-to-one programme set up for that individual for example counselling. So we know that there's more that we can do in this space. We know of those 555 that came forward that it felt person centred, it felt preventative and that's the type of thing that we need to do much more of and to David's point heighten awareness of as well for colleagues. Thank you for that. The Federation were critical about the support that's been offered. Is that something you see the quality of changing? I'm just wondering how robust the assessments are in terms of early intervention and clearly someone's own stress and anxiety is different from somebody who's actually at the point of suicide. So are you absolutely confident that the assessments are robust and what you're doing to help people is robust enough? So I think there's different levels of assessment. So perhaps some of what David was talking, we're referring to, I don't want to put words in your mouth but perhaps there's occupational health referrals. So we obviously do several thousand of those during a period of time that will range in complexity for individuals and there is definitely feedback around the occupational health referral. What I would say from experience with Police Scotland and other organisations is that actually to get a really good response back from the occupational health organisation quite often it's the quality of what goes into that. So what are the questions that we are asking and that actually does come back in part to stigma. So how does a line manager have a really good conversation with a colleague about what is going on and understand holistically so that when we do referral to occupational health we're giving them the best possible total position for them to be able to respond. So I think that occupational health, there is more that we need to do with the supplier, we are currently actually reprecuring the supplier and within that procurement we ask very specifically when organisations tender to respond to the uniqueness of Police Scotland and the specific demands that is placed on officers. I think possibly what you're saying goes back to David's point about training, you know about the training has to be there or it's just not going to be effective. There are different training offers that we have, some online, some digital. We've just invested in significant your leadership matters, which is all of our leaders between now and October next year are going through significant development. I think there was a recognition that when Police Scotland came together there was a bit of a lull in terms of leadership development. We've stepped back into that space, so over a million pounds has been invested in this. And part of that, so that's from the executive right the way down, so we've done 250 of our most senior managers, we're into the next 400 and then we move into 5000 line managers. But a big part of that leadership development is around psychological safety. So how can you have a really good conversation with your teams and with your colleagues to understand what is going on for them? Whether that be psychological, physical or financial wellbeing. So there's a big investment in that space, but we need to embed it and make sure that it's felt by people. I wonder if maybe David Thrigill, do you'd like to maybe pick that up and add anything that you wish to and perhaps we'll bring in Stuart Carle as well on that? Thank you, convener. Not that this is a two way discussion between Kate and I, but just, you know, I'm aware of the work that she's speaking about with those assessments. I hadn't necessarily considered this myself until I started talking to people, but if we're speaking about stigma specifically, by identifying specific roles or specialised roles within the organisation for enhanced anything, there is a real risk that you further stigmatise those who are not on the list, if you like. Now that, again, comes down to, you know, finance and time and effort, but the operational men and women across Scotland who are not necessarily dealing with what might be perceived as specialist crimes but who are every single day of their life going into perhaps chaotic situations, the impact of those situations on them should not be underestimated when we're considering this piece in the hole. Just to lead on again, if it's acceptable to some of the stuff that Kate spoke about, one of the main challenges and a lot of the feedback that I've had relates to that lack of engagement with line managers. So how can you have the type of conversation that we all know should be taking place if you're line manager, if you don't see them month to month? And that can be the case for operational officers across Scotland. That's where we have a challenge. That whole line manager piece, again, if we have 250 temporary acting surgeons in Scotland who will have received zero training in how to deal with this particular aspect of work, how can the principle that we're discussing here actually be delivered in real life? Because my view is in the experiences from those who have spoken to us that it isn't, you know, and I could probably go on and on about online training and the benefits or otherwise of that. And again, it comes down to investment in Kate's smile on it because she and I have had many conversations about your leadership matters and the potential value of that. Of course, we would never not advocate for training, but there has to be a real benefit and something tangible at the end of it. And I'm not convinced that in most circumstances in operational policing the way to deliver that effectively is through an online platform. Thank you. Thanks very much. I'm bringing Stuart Carroll now, just if you've got anything to add to that. Thank you, convener. I took part in your leadership matters training just before I retired from the services as a chief superintendent, and I'm due to go on the next tranche as a member of police staff. It was suboptimal to what we'd been used to, but it was the space we had to go into online training. And hopefully your leadership matters will develop into further conversations between leaders to identify what we're hearing about psychological factors. But it's not just about training. Police Scotland stepped away from a meaningful appraisal system where every member of staff would sit with a senior member of staff as a chief inspector. I saw all of my staff when I worked in North Lanarkshire. And part of that conversation was not just about personal development. It was also about health and safety. It was about well-being. It was about attendance issues. So these conversations have not been taking place to the same extent undoubtedly. We now have a new appraisal system, my career, and hopefully these conversations will start again. So it wasn't just really a lull. It's probably been seven or eight years of moving into a transactional space to deliver policing within a budget rather than transitional. We've been forced, and that's a criticism that's been levelled against the service. People of my rank have been too transactional. That's simply because they've had to get the job done. And when you look at the areas of response policing, there are far fewer supervisors working in that area. You have an inspector now covering a much greater area. We've had to do that out of necessity. We haven't seen a reduction in inspectors. We've just had to put them into other areas of business, public protection units, contact command and control and so on and so forth. So we need to reskill our supervisors, junior managers and middle managers in the art of conversations that are meaningful with officers and staff. But you need to be present to do that. And we have definitely, coming out of Covid, we've moved into a space of meetings by teams and other systems rather than in person. So you miss the sidebar chats. You miss picking up on somebody, perhaps, who's struggling if you're only seeing them in a video. And I know how difficult that can be. I was head of road policing. I covered all of Scotland. It was difficult for me to get round all of my 22 bases. But I could see where people were struggling simply by their workload, and that was an indicator to us. So we have systems that look at traffic light that says, well, if somebody's actually dealing with three or four fatal road crashes in a year, they clearly need to be supported. And we need to step in and have the conversation. And generally, most folks shrug their shoulders and say, you know, it's fine, boss. I'm getting on with it. But you need to sit down and ask. So it's good to hear that the service is investing in these psychological assessments for people that are exposed to trauma on a regular basis. That thanks very much for that. OK, so I'm going to bring in Pauline McNeill and then Katie Clark. Good morning, first of all. If I could maybe come in where Stuart left off, because what I'm hearing this morning is that, when the reorganisation was 10 years ago, we've had serious budgetary challenges. And just I acknowledge that. I personally don't change it so. Probably it's changed a lot, but it concerns me greatly, actually, that your last contribution, Stuart, you've acknowledged that there's quite serious deficiencies in systematic approaches and interventions across quite senior grades. And does that not mean that the panel has just given a quick answer to this? Does it not suggest there needs to be a sense of urgency then to fix this? It is quite alarmed with what I've heard so far. I wouldn't mind a quick response to that question. Maybe you want to start, Stuart. Everything's urgent, everything's a priority in policing, and that has been the space we've had to occupy to make the savings that have been put in place. It's at a time when policing itself in the UK has undergone a great deal of changes, but we've acknowledged that and we are trying to put back in place modern leadership training. We're trying to expose our managers to more collaborative and partnership working with local authorities, with other partner agencies to try and upscale them. The sense of urgency, that's my question yet. Does anyone else want to answer that, ACC? I'll reiterate what Stuart says, of course, as a sense of urgency. When you look at where we were 10 years ago and compare it to where we are now in respect of our wellbeing and welfare offer, it's fine. We didn't have wellbeing impact assessments 10 years ago. We didn't have wellbeing champions across the service 10 years ago. It's been professionalised to a greater extent and I think that's in recognition of the risks and the stresses that officers face on an absolutely daily basis. We know where we want to invest and I think that the work that Katie's leading on in the services is absolutely in the right direction and we really do want to invest in that. We'll have to cut our numbers this year of 3.7 per cent just to keep our lights on. That's not the only thing of an urgent nature that we've got to deal with. It's about capacity, understanding where the priorities lie and taking the resources that we've been given to invest in that and make improvement. We're trying our best to do that and the commitment from the entire executive to ensure that that happens in a way that's going to be beneficial to the people that work for us. I mean, the committee would acknowledge the severe pressures. But as David Dreadgold said in his contribution, it's the relentless nature of the job that, unlike most jobs, I would imagine being on the front line during the pandemic, stretched resources, police being the last call of resort. I'm very, very alive to that. We've heard evidence from officers in specialist units and undercover units. One officer who said that he was passed a period, I think it's five years but don't quote me on the period, well beyond and he didn't realise he was not coping. I wonder maybe if you want to answer. I've just been general about this but it's the same point. It just seems to me to be quite urgent, the systematic approach that we need to take. This is an example of an officer who had never had an automated intervention and didn't realise until seven years, seven undercover, that he needed some mental health support. If I may, through you, convener, I absolutely agree with you in terms of that whole-system approach. In a way, one of big traumatic incidents is obvious but that relentless nature of on-going areas of constantly having that anxiety perhaps or constantly being exposed to, when I say lower level, I don't mean to say it's any less distressing. It's something that can have impact on wellbeing. What the authority is absolutely committed to doing is holding Police Scotland to account and scrutinise the interventions that they take. I don't believe that we can provide a safe and effective policing service if we don't look after the workforce. We have some people who are driven to suicide, some who are contemplating it and others who are in that phase where they have a distress, either knowing or don't know. I think it was Mr Greene perhaps that asked about the members of staff who report with mental health. The stigma sometimes is such that they don't report as mental health, they report as something else. When we are scrutinising Police Scotland, what we will be looking for is to see that as a priority. We want to see a whole-system approach that starts at the very beginning but also looks at reducing stigma, how we can do that. There are other aspects, such as debriefing, how you manage your workforce. A student has talked about that, the importance of interaction, the importance of on-going professional development, but the annual performance appraisal that most organisations take for granted. We would be expecting to see that and scrutinise that and reporting into the authority about how to do that. I absolutely believe that the executive is fully committed in partnership with our staff organisations to treating this with the utmost priority and making sure that we get on the front foot. As we speak, we have officers and staff who are in distress, so what we need to do is make sure that there are appropriate interventions being put in to stop that. The question is on the same theme. We have heard before about the relentless nature of policing. Because of the emergency pressures, officers get their leave cancelled at the last minute. I cannot imagine in most professions what the reaction would be in order to provide a front-line service keeping people safe. Does that suggest, as David Dergle said, that the daily stuff where it is not reached that level of someone feeling a mental health problem, but the pressures on shift patterns? In your view, should there be earlier interventions to try to address officers that might not be coping on a day-to-day basis? In one word, yes. I have highlighted in my notes something that was submitted in the SPA in the written submission. It says, we can also seek through working practices to minimise the extent and duration of exposure for our people. We are trying collectively to turn this tide of relentless demand against budgetary constraints, reducing numbers to meaningfully provide an appropriate level of support for our staff. That day off cancelled is relentless, but those things will largely go on past. It affects so many people across the organisation that trying to quantify the impact on an individual would be very difficult. It is absolutely impossible if you never see your line manager and we have nothing in place proactively to say how you are doing. The conversations that Stuart spoke about are annual appraisal. They need to be happening all the time and they are just not. As a consequence of that, we are missing so many triggers, I believe, that might not ultimately end up in suicide, but if you look at our sickness records, people off through mental health absences, all of these things impact and would be stepping stones on the way to individuals ultimately potentially taking their own knife. We have a real role here in getting in at the bottom of this and to use the analogy to stop people getting into the river rather than pulling them out at the bottom. That is a real thing and a real challenge. I have got some concerns about, Kate, who spoke about the wellbeing champions. Anything that the service commits to giving a period of time per month or per year to, I have real skepticism about. I think that it is four hours per month per wellbeing champion in this case. My experience, I would love to be corrected, is that that will be almost impossible to deliver operationally. As a consequence of that, the people who are standing to be wellbeing champions will not be operational because they cannot possibly service that demand within their own workloads because of every other aspect of policing. I was told that this morning on the way down. We are all trying to do the right thing. There is no question about that, but it is the delivery of it, and I believe fundamentally that that has to sit through training and investment in training. The value of that is limited if we do it online, and that is clear from the independent report that went to the SPA board four or five weeks ago. The value in online training, particularly for officers who are not desk-based, is almost negligible. This aspect of our work cannot be just a box-ticking exercise without any meaningful impact on those who are asking to do the job for us. I have a wider point about the relentless nature of policing. Fortunately, Katie and I are leading on work just now that has been established as a result of resource and pressures, particularly following the budget settlement, which has clearly led to reducing our numbers on both police officers and police staff. That is all focused on reshaping the organisation. The chief has said it himself that there are hard choices that need to be made in order that we not only can manage core service but that we can look after our people and make sure that that relentless nature that you rightly identify is recognised and addressed and alleviated where possible. We have also got to that, and that is just the day-to-day stresses and calls and instant demand. David is talking about that. We would love to deliver face-to-face training for everything. We need to be able to prioritise that as well. Unfortunately, if the answer is that we cannot manage to do that because of the other demands that we have, we unfortunately have to deliver not a gold standard but a silver standard or a bronze standard. I absolutely take the point that for something as urgent as welfare and ensuring that our officers are fit and well as they could be, then perhaps that offer could be improved. That is something that we are looking at through your leadership matters programme. My question has been partly answered by Stuart. I was wanting to ask a little bit more about the factors that seem to have existed in real cases. I understand that there is a relatively small number of cases, so you do not want to make general conclusions. It is fair to say that the committee has met a number of police officers in private who have explained the factors that have led them to have mental health issues, either as serving police officers or as former police officers. I do not want to presume or to speculate in terms of what the factors are, but it may well be that the committee already has an understanding, but I think that it would be helpful to hear from yourselves. There is already, as I said, been mentioned from Stuart of fatal road crashes, and indeed that was something that witnesses have spoken to us about before. Andy, in terms of the real cases that you have looked at, I appreciate that I am not suggesting that you can reach general conclusions from a specific case. Can you outline some of the factors that seem to be evident? When we spoke to serving police officers, one of the issues that was raised was concerns about the counselling services that are available to police officers. Can you outline whether there had been interventions in terms of those particular police officers and whether there were any lessons to be learned in relation to real cases? I do not think that it would be appropriate for me to go into individual cases that have been investigated. There is a relatively small number, and I think that that would cause issues, even if I was trying to be more general there. As I said, the deaths that have been investigated, the information has been, the conclusions of those investigations have been shared with brief relatives, and they have been carefully considered with a view to whether a fatal accident should be held. Was it often the case that the individual had been exposed to very traumatic circumstances? Was that a factor in cases? I think that it is really difficult for me to go into that, because what I can say is that there is certainly a range of contributing factors in every death by suicide that we have investigated. No question about that. I think that trying to attribute different levels to the various factors involved is very difficult. There is no doubt that some of the factors that are relevant are sensitive and personal to that individual, as well as any other wider issues. I think that it is really difficult for me to answer that question. It is obviously very important that we understand that, so that we can take action to try to prevent those kinds of situations. That is the kind of issues that the courts look at in personal injury cases, that was a safe system of work, and we need to be able to provide safe systems of work for surfing police officers. I do not know if Gary was wanting to come in on that. Just to get a little bit more detail, and not in any way breaching confidentiality or speaking about specific cases, but we do need to understand. I could put words in your mouth as to what I think might be the issues, but I think it would be better if you maybe could outline what you think are some of the factors. You are not going to find a surfing police officer that spent any time operationally at all that does not have a story of a dramatic event that they have been to. In fact, they will have several. This is not in any way to lessen the impact on individuals, but it is in the nature of policing in my police officer colleagues that sit around this table. We all carry our own memories that we wish we did not have that have had an impact on us. I think that we identify, as Katie has said and as David has mentioned, those areas of work where we can see and predict the type of trauma. We talk about vicarious trauma that comes from viewing of sex offences on children and things like that. Last year, I mentioned those that are dealing with death investigations. That is predictable. What is not predictable is going out today and being first in the scene of the murder of a child or the scene of a horrendously violent incident. Those things happen in policing in a daily basis. I was affected by it myself. I used the AAP a number of years ago and it was the counselling sessions that had a huge help to me at that time. I have a friend in the service who, at the same time, used the same service and counsellor to me and thought that it was completely useless but had no help to that individual at all. I think that that highlights the complex nature of the offer that affects people in different ways when we recognise that. To try and narrow down, as I have said before, investigations in most of the cases that we have investigated have not shown apparent workforce stresses in leading to the individual taking their own life. That is not to say that the psychological wellbeing has not been affected by the fact that police officers in every single day of their working life are exposed to things that are unimaginable to the normal working person. The examination of the circumstances is considerable, without going into stuff that is currently alive. For example, our professional standards department has changed some of their processes around handling officer restrictions and officer suspensions. So, when something happens, they are very much in that space of saying, well, have we placed additional stress on that officer or member of staff? What else can we do to support them? That is where the Federation and ASPs can come in with our panel of friends and supportive actions. We moved away from welfare officers that Mr Greene spoke about in Strathclyde back in 2002. I worked in that project. We moved towards a nurse-led approach. We moved towards having addiction councillors rather than welfare officers, because that seemed to be the support. The wellbeing champions that have now come in, while there will be some cynicism around how much time and effort they can commit to it, have far more widely spread support network. I think that it can grow organically and become a better system. We are restricted by what we can talk about, but the officers who have committed suicide that I am aware of have either been completely unheralded or have been as a consequence of devastating personal news rather than work pressures. I do not know if the Federation will want it to come in or if they feel… I agree with everything that has been said. The challenges that we face are unimaginable to most members of the public. I suppose it would be just to go over the ground, and I know that we are tight for time about the processes that we have in place internally to identify those, to have meaningful conversations with our staff, regardless of the rank that they are at, and what the organisation can and does put in place. I am not sure that I could say anything different about the standard of service that we can provide, being silver or bronze. Around the room, is that good enough for the service? I do not think that it is, but collectively we have to get together and do something about it, and ultimately there will be an element of funding in that. Nobody, regardless of which political party you represent, can get away from that fact. Discussing those matters is absolutely relevant, but you have to be realistic about what we can deliver. If you can only deliver a bronze service because of what you have, then there has to be an acceptance of that. It is not good enough, and we will work, and I have no doubt collectively, to try to get it better than that, but we are hamstrung in a huge number of areas in trying to deliver what we are talking about here. The stuff about wellbeing champions have said some of the other mechanisms that we have. I have close friends and family who serve in the place who describe the trim process. It is mentioned, for example, as something that you can deflect with a simple I'm okay. That is not acceptable. We have to look at reviewing the process for that so that you are going to pick up on those who are going to road accidents or going to domestic incidents in people's houses or going to anything and putting measures in place that we can meaningfully identify how they are getting on. Are they coping with it? The point that has been prodded is that can somebody say that somebody has committed suicide because of their role in the police? We can't say that. We don't have the data to say that in the first place, I don't believe. There is much work to be done, but there is no lack of willingness to get it done. I think that that would be a collective voice from around the table. It's going to be done. Good morning to the panel. It's been a very tough session. I want to thank you all for being able to speak about it. A lot of the focus just now has been on the extreme end, if you like, and that's obviously why you're here today. Is there anything in place or any plans to be in place for a more well-being approach across the whole service, including all of yourselves, including every single serving officer and serving member of staff? The reason why I ask that is that over the last few years organisations have become more aware of mental well-being and emotional health. I've been doing more and more visits to organisations and businesses in my constituency, who are now saying that they give an hour a day, but it's a specific hour a day well-being to go around or exercise or meditation. It's something quite specific about mental well-being. I wonder if there's anything like that in there so that things have been addressed at an earlier stage, but also it's for everybody and everybody is able to look after their own mental well-being. I'm not sure who's best place to answer that. It's a wee bit different from the other questions. The well-being framework that we have is holistic and covers physical, financial and emotional mental well-being. The pillar of it is around prevention and person-centred. That's our aspiration. I think some of which I've talked about today, there are other things that we do as well, so what I've mentioned isn't the entirety of what sits in there. I actually think that the protected time I've worked in organisations where we've had that as well, I suspect that it's going to come back to rostering and the ability to have the capacity, particularly within front line, police to be able to protect the time in order to have that well-being hour or whatever that might be. I think, though, that in terms of future commitments, the big piece for me or the big takeaway piece is the evidence-led assurance. This is the piece that the Authority and Fiona and People Committee will say to me regularly in my role, what does that look like, how are you able to demonstrate that of everything you're doing and there is a lot in there, is it the right things and is it making a difference. The challenge that I have at the moment is to come up with an evidence-led framework that is able to demonstrate that. Davies and others have touched upon the point that the difficulty with this and this isn't unique to policing, it's front-line staff and how you know that what you're doing is making a difference. Are they even aware of it? If they are aware of it, do they know how to access it? Do they have the technology to be able to access things through the internet or whatever it might be? There is academic research that will show heightened risk of post-traumatic stress disorder. If your coping style to trauma is one of avoidance, you are four times more likely to potentially get post-traumatic stress disorder at a point in time. How do you have a conversation with somebody who's been in an instant of trauma to say how are you, I'm okay, to recognise that potentially that avoidance strategy actually at a point in time will have a detriment on that individual. Some of it is absolutely organisational wide, but I do think that it's this individual person centred, and how we invest time as line managers to be able to have conversations so you can see the differences in relationships. You can see how somebody's behaviour is. You notice a difference in how they are turning up at work and then have the confidence and the capability to be able to have the conversation with them. I think that we're coming back to stigma a little bit here, where there's an uncomfortableness to talk about mental health in the same way as physical health, we're comfortable talking about that. If somebody regrettably has a cancer diagnosis, there is an easier conversation because of stigma than somebody that's perhaps post-traumatic stress disorder. It's really complex, but we have a list of 11 commitments that we'll share with the People Committee around things that I think we need to do as an organisation to strengthen or gaps that I can see where I think that we need to step into that gap. I'm not sure I've answered your question. I think it's also worth saying that you made reference yourself that you're the one here today, but isn't unique to policing? I mean, even through today, before I became an MSP, I worked in social work and a lot of things were talking about, I was thinking about myself, and we were always thinking of ways that people could be better supported. It was almost a rite of passage for every single children and family social worker, and we're actually on the public record seeing this, but I don't know a children and family social worker that hasn't ended up at a period of off with stress. There's definitely areas across the public service, but that takes me to my second point. I think it was yourself, ACC Richard, that said, you won't know a single officer that hasn't had at least one, but probably several events. Given that that's a known part of the job, how much focus is given around that in the training stage when your officers are at Tully Island and places like that? I mean, it's a specific thing they're saying. This is going to be part of your job, it's going to be a difficult part of your job, and here's scientific and evidence-based research about how you might want to cope with that, and that's when maybe these sort of techniques that I've mentioned could be brought in as well. I think it probably starts before training in the recruitment processes. Recruitments is much a communication process for an individual in respect of do you realise what you're likely to face, and do you think you've got the personal resilience required to actually deal with that? That's a kind of acceptance, and as I said, we recruit from society and we need to be reflective of society and right across it, but it's not as much about testing that, it's more about making sure that people acknowledge the fact that they're going to, at a very early stage of their career, be faced with traumatic incidents, because it's just a nature of policing. I mean, it's been a wee while since I've done a scene provisional training, obviously. When I was in it, it certainly was part of it, quite a difficult part of training where we were almost immersed in some of the, and you'll remember this as well, some of the more difficult sides of policing, and so our expectations were shaped. As I said, I'm not sure just exactly what that looks like now, but I know it'll be part of it, but I'd imagine it'll be a bit more sophisticated than it was when I was going through provisional training. And then, as I say, you don't have to be out there on the street very long before you come across something that's very, very challenging. My experiences are different from the officers just now. I think the demands are higher, and we talk about the relentless demand that we're faced at every day. It's harder, I think, than it was when I was a young cop and also just to degree a scrutiny that policing's under now as well, you know, brings its own stresses and pressures. So that foundation, before you even need to deal with something that's particularly traumatic, brings more stress, I think, than it did when I was young. But, as I said, we recognise that. You know, and there isn't a senior police officer in the executive who doesn't have their own story and doesn't sympathise with the officers out on the street, which is why I'm pleased to say that, you know, what David says for the Federation is that it's an accurate representation of how committed we are to addressing it. OK, thanks. I mean, I know this is a subject that we could probably spend a lot more time on, but I'm conscious of the time, convener. Thanks, sir. I think David, you would like to come back in. I think just to address your point, when you're dealing with police officers, we're quite a unique species, you know, and we deal with situations that aren't, as we've discussed, normal. So suggestions that come from the executive or from me or from yourselves have to be credible as far as the organisation is concerned. And I think to address the point specifically about setting aside particular amounts of time in a day or, you know, any of that type of suggestion, the reality of that happening for operational officers in particular is absolutely zero. Now, interestingly enough, if you are in an office-based role away from the front line, that might well be an option for you, but then you will create this almost conflict within the service because some have and some don't. So we need to be really careful about that type of suggestion, but I agree that it's an entirely valid one. The point about training, I was looking through my notes there and I've got it somewhere, but people have come back to me specifically on that point. And again, it comes down to the amount of time that we have at Tile Island, if you're talking about initial training, and what needs to be given as far as input to the officers who come into our organisation through the definitions of crime, you know, their roles and responsibilities. The information that I have whilst I can't lay my hand on it is that time spent specifically preparing them for the functions of a police officer is almost zero. And the tools that they have as operational constables, if you like, to identify themselves but also to know where to go with the challenges that we face as police officers is an area that we could really improve on as well. OK, thank you very much. We're just conscious of the time and I'm going to bring in Russell Finlay just in a moment to wind up the session, but I wonder if I can maybe come back to some of the discussion that we've had around the factors that those perhaps pushing pool factors that end in a suicide by a police officer or a member of staff. And how difficult it seems to have been from what we've discussed today. It's been quite difficult to pin down what those factors have been, and I'm sure that, like the general population, they're actually quite wide and varied. But I just want to come to yourself, Fiona McQueen, just to ask in and around the, you know, if ultimately we're you as the SPA are looking to, I suppose, scrutinise the way in which Police Scotland respond to this type of incident. How difficult is that given that the factors that perhaps lead to that tragic event happening are unclear, so that makes it more difficult to put more preventative measures in place. So how do we scrutinise the response that Police Scotland puts in place? Thank you, convener, and we are absolutely assured that the commitment of the organisation and leadership to put the best support in place. We've not yet received adequate assurance that the wellbeing activities that are currently in place are having the impact that we expect. And I would like to reassure the committee that the authority does expect and we will be scrutinising the actions that Police Scotland are taking. And just because we're not seeing a pattern, just because there's no one thing that's obvious that has driven someone to take their own life and leave their loved ones in real distress, doesn't mean to say we don't know what actions need to be taken. And it's not about a sledgehammer to crack a nut. What we're saying is we can prevent, so with the big traumatic incidents and the smaller build-up, we know that there are things that we can put in place or Police Scotland can put in place to have that impact. And that's what we will be measuring that from probationer, or as Gary says, kind of pre-probationer to exiting the service, so that we're seeing that whole system approach. So there's evidence in research and increasingly our knowledge is improving in terms of what can cause on-going distress. But I think more importantly what action we need to take is a positive intervention to fix someone, to help them get better, but also to prevent it. But also listening to the lived experience I think is incredibly important as well, so that we can weave that in almost like a tapestry of protection around officers. Now I think there'll be some that Police Scotland might find difficult, so we've heard today about the pressure on time. But what we will be expecting as an authority is to see evidence that that's been put in place in a systematic way that covers everyone, so that we're not missing, people don't go through the night. And that is wider. We've talked about that wider societal piece in terms of how we do that. And I know that Katie and I have been having a conversation about plans she has to have that round table and bring in wider partners so that we can look at reducing stigma, improving outcomes, and that's what we will be scrutinising and holding Police Scotland to account in doing so. That's very much, that's very helpful. I'm just going to bring Russell back in just to finish off our session. Thanks very much. I'm sure the families of officers who've lost loved ones to suicide will be very relieved and glad to hear that Police Scotland is now finally beginning to record the numbers at least. They're turning to the issue of fatal accident inquiries and this is probably a question for Andy Shanks. In the letter to the committee from the Lord Advocate, it talked about the processes and the decision making, you've talked a bit about that as well. But given there's a requirement of the Crown Office to investigate a subject every single death in custody to an FAI, how does that square with the families of officers who believe that their workplace issues have contributed to their deaths not being subject to a fatal accident inquiry? Explain that to them. I don't think that it's necessarily for the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service to explain what the legislative provisions are that are in place at the moment. Mr Finlay, obviously we apply the law as it stands and there is, as you say, a requirement for there to be a mandatory fatal accident inquiry in relation to death in custody. I'm happy to acknowledge on that point that I think one of the submissions indicated this as well that sometimes the length of time those investigations can take to reach a fatal accident inquiry can have an impact on those involved, the brief relatives, of course, but everyone else involved in the process as well. We're very much aware of that and we have an improvement programme in place to try and improve the service that we provide to brief relatives and others and also to increase the efficiency of the death investigation process that we have. There have been, I think, 120 plus deaths in custody in the past five years, each of which will require an FAI, each of which takes up a huge amount of resource, which is getting under greater pressure than ever before. Has resource played a factor in any of the decisions made not to conduct a fatal accident inquiry? No, I mean resourceing is absolutely not an issue that would be taken into account when assessing whether there's a public interest in holding a fatal accident inquiry, a discretionary fatal accident inquiry. I'm certainly reassured that in relation to death by suicide, including those involving police officers and staff, that those deaths are investigated carefully, thoroughly, with an open mind and taking into account the views of brief relatives. There's nothing in terms of the statutory provisions at the moment that would inhibit or prevent a fatal accident inquiry being held if it's in the public interest to do so. That's helpful. Thank you. Okay, so I think we'll need to bring our session to a close at this point. Thank you very much indeed. I think that that's been a very helpful and informative session. Just before we take our short suspension, I'd like to put on record our thanks to Graham Ross from SPICE, who has been our lead researcher on policing matters for many years. He's hiding behind Pauline McNeill. Members may not know that Graham is retiring over the summer after 24 years of service to the Parliament. So, on behalf of us all, Graham, I wish you a long and very happy retirement and wish you well in whatever your next adventure will be. Thank you, Graham. On that note, I will suspend this meeting. Thank you.