From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. On June 23rd, the Wall Street Journal reported that Dell is exploring strategic options for its approximately 81% share in VMware. Both Dell and VMware stocks popped on the news. We believe that Dell is floating this trial balloon to really gauge investor, customer, and partner sentiment and perhaps send a signal to the short sellers that, you know what? Michael Dell has other arrows in his quiver to unlock.  Who knows? Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we'll unpack some of the complicated angles in the ongoing VMware saga and assess five scenarios that we think are possible as it pertains to this story. As always, we're going to bring in some ETR customer data to analyze what's happening with the spending picture. Let's take a look at what happened and just do a quick recap. The Wall Street Journal story said that Dell was considering spinning off VMware or buying the remaining 19% of VMware stock that it doesn't own. The journal article cited unnamed sources and said that a spin-off would not likely happen until September 2021 for tax reasons. That would mark, of course, the five-year anniversary of Dell acquiring EMC and would allow for a tax-free transaction. Always a good thing. What's going on here? And what options does Dell really have? What does it mean for Dell, VMware, customers and partners? We're going to try to answer those questions today. So first of all, why would Dell make such a move? Well, I think this tweet from your own name mark, he's a portfolio manager at one main capital. It kind of sums it up. He laid out this chart, which shows Dell's market cap. Prior to the stock pop, it's closer to 38 billion today and the value of its VMware ownership, which is over 50 billion since the stock pop. But let me cut to the chase. Investors value the core assets of Dell, which accounts for around $80 billion in revenue when you exclude VMware. Somewhere south of negative $10 billion. Why? It's because Dell is carrying more than $30 billion of core debt when you exclude Dell financial services. And it looks like a conglomerate owning the vast majority of VMware shares. Michael Dell has something like a 97% voting control. Core Dell is a low-margin, low-growth business. And some have complained that Michael uses VMware as his piggy bank and many investors just won't touch the stock. So the stock, generally Dell stock, has underperformed. I've often said, even going back to the EMC days, that owning the stock of VMware's owner is actually a cheap way to buy VMware. But that's assuming that the value somehow gets unlocked at some point. So Dell is perhaps signaling that it has some options and other levers to pull. As I said, maybe trying to give pause to the shorts. Now let's have a look at some of the ETR spending data and evaluate the respective positions of Dell and VMware in the marketplace. This chart here uses the core ETR methodology that we like to talk about all the time. For those not familiar, we use the concept of net score. Net score is a simple metric. It's like net promoter score, sort of. The chart shows the elements of Dell's net score. So each core ETR goes out and asks customers, do you plan to adopt the vendor new? That's the lime green at 4%. Spend more relative to last year, more meaning more than 6%. That's the forest green and you can see that's at 32%. Flat spend is the gray, meaning plus or minus 5%. And then decrease spending by 6% or greater. That's the pink and that's 11% for Dell. Or are you replacing the platform? See that, that's the bright red there at 7%. So net score is a measure of spending momentum and it's derived by adding the greens and subtracting the reds. And you can see Dell in the last ETR survey, which was taken at the height of the pandemic has a net score of 18%. Now we colored that soft red. It's not terrible, but it's not great either. Now of course, this is across Dell's entire portfolio and it excludes VMware. So what about VMware? So this next graphic that we're showing you, it applies the exact same methodology to VMware. And as you can see, VMware has a much higher net score at 35%, which of course shouldn't surprise anybody. It's a higher growth company. But 46% of VMware customers plan to spend more this year relative to last year and only 11% plan to spend less. That's pretty strong. Now, what if we combined Dell and VMware and looked at them as a single entity? Hmm, wouldn't that be interesting? Okay, here you go. So there were 975 respondents in the last ETR survey when we mashed the two companies together. And you can see the combined net score is 27%. With 42% of respondents planning to spend more this year than they did last year. So you may be asking, well, is this any good? How does this compare to Dell and VMware competitors? Well, I'm glad you asked. So here we show that in this chart, the net score comparisons. So we take the combined Dell and VMware at 27%. Cisco, as we often reported, consistently shows pretty strong relative to the enterprise data center players. And you can see HPE is kind of a tepid 17%. So it's got some work to do to live up to the promises of the HPE split. We also show IBM Red Hat at 14%. So there's some room for improvement there also. And you can see IBM in the danger zone as we break that down and Red Hat much stronger. But you know what? It's softened somewhat in the ETR survey since last year. So we'd like to see better momentum from IBM and Red Hat. It's kind of unfortunate that COVID hit when it did. As IBM was just kind of ramping up, it's Red Hat go to market. Now, just for comparison purposes, for kicks, we include Nutanix. Nutanix is a much smaller company, but it's one that's fairly mature. And you can see at 52%, it's net score is much higher than the big whales. Now, we've been reporting for months on high flyers like automation anywhere, CrowdStrike, Octa, Rubrik, Snowflake, UiPath. These emerging companies have net scores north of 60% and even in the 70% range. But of course they're growing from a much smaller base. So you would expect that. Now let's put this into context with a two-dimensional view that we'd like to show. Now, as you know, in addition to net score, that metric, we like to use so-called market share. Market share is a measure of pervasiveness in the dataset or essentially market share in the survey. And it's a proxy for real market share. So what this chart here does, it plots several companies with their net scores on the y-axis and market share on the x-axis. And you can see that we combined Dell and VMware together and we plotted them in that red highlighted box just for comparison purposes. So what does this tell you about the competitive landscape? Well, first, everyone would love to be AWS. You know, Microsoft too, we didn't plot Microsoft because they're so bloody dominant, they skew the chart somewhat, but they would be way, way out to the right on the x-axis because they have such a huge number of products and mentions in the dataset. So we left them out. Now you can see VMware and Cisco are kind of right on top of each other, which is sort of ironic as they're, you know, kind of increasingly overlapping with their offerings in the marketplace, particularly NSX. And you can see the other companies and for context, we've added a few more competitors like Veeam and Commvault. And, you know, they're in a pretty strong position as well as the combination of Dell and VMware. So let's start there. Steful analyst, Brad Reeback, was quoted in the MarketWatch publication as saying the following. We have long believed Dell would ultimately buy in the approximately 19% or 12.5 billion of VMware that it does not own in order to gain full control over VMware's substantial free cash flow, which is about $4 billion annually.  Huh. You know, I don't know. I'm not sure about this. On the one hand, you can see from the previous chart this would be a better outcome for Dell from a competitive standpoint. What it did is it pulls Dell up and to the right. Yeah, but perhaps not so much for VMware as it went down and to the left.  And what, take on even more debt? You know, maybe it could get Silver Lake to finance the deal. You know, then essentially, Dell would become the Oracle of infrastructure. You know, it certainly would make Dell even more strategic to CIOs. Would that be good for customers? Well, on the one hand, I guess it would bring better integration between Dell and VMware. You know, but I wonder if that's the critical issue for customers. And on the other hand, I think it would stifle VMware's innovation engine and a little bit further. And I wonder how Pat Gelsinger would react.  And what about Sanjay Poonan, who is the obvious next in line for the CEO job at VMware? What, he becomes the president of Dell's software division? And what about the rest of the team at VMware? You know, they're a Silicon Valley stalwart and that would slowly morph into Austin-based Dell. With the debt burden growing, you know, it's going to mean more of VMware's cash would go to paying down the debt, meaning less money for R&D or even stock buybacks, which you know I'm not a huge fan of. And I'm not a huge fan of this scenario. For sure, the technology partner ecosystem would be ice cold on such a deal. You could argue they're already less than lukewarm. But here, I want to explore some other options. So the next on the list is Dell could sell VMware to a private equity firm or a strategic. It could basically wipe out its debt and have some cash left over to sail into the sunset. That would be a big pill for someone to swallow. Even though Michael Dell has 97% voting power, I think there's fine print that says he has a responsibility to protect the interest of the minority shareholders. So to get approval, it would have to sell at a premium. You know, that could be as high as, you know, almost $70 billion. Microsoft has the cash, but they don't need VMware. And Amazon, I guess, could pull it off, but that certainly is not likely. Even if Google, who has the cash, were interested in buying VMware, Google would be the most likely candidate. You know, it would give Google Cloud Instant access to the coveted enterprise, but it's really hard to conceive. I mean, same for a PE company. 65 to 70 billion, you know, they get their money out in 15 to 20 years. So I just don't see that as viable. All right, what's next? How about the scenario of spinning off VMware that the journal reported?  You know, there may be some financial wizardry that Tom Sweet, Dell's CFO, and his band of financial geniuses could swing. I can't even begin to speculate what that would be, but I've heard there's some magic that they could pull off to maybe pull some cash out of such a transaction. And this would unlock the value of both Dell and VMware by removing the conglomerate and liquidity hangover for Dell. And it would definitely attract more sideline investors into VMware stock. And Michael Dell would still own a boatload of VMware stock personally. So there's an incentive there. So this is interesting and certainly possible. You know, I think in a way it would be good for VMware customers. VMware would get full autonomy and control over its destiny without Dell bogarting its cash. So it could freely innovate. Dell would become probably less strategic for customers. So I don't think that for Dell EMC buyers, the technology ecosystem partners like HPE, IBM, NetApp, et cetera, they would like it more, but they were already kind of down the path looking to optimize VMware alternatives. So think about Cisco. But I think for VMware customers, okay. I think for Dell EMC customers, not so much. Now what about the do nothing scenario? You know, I think this is as possible as any outcome. Dell keep chipping away at its debt using VMware as a strategic lynchpin with customers. Sure, they continue to pay the liquidity overhang tax and they'll frustrate some shareholders who we're going to remain on the sideline. But, you know, that's been the pattern anyway. Now, what about delivering some of the VMware ownership? So the more I think about it, the more I like this scenario. What if Dell sold 20% of its VMware stake and let's say raised, I don't know, 10, 12 billion dollars in cash that it could use to really eat into its debt burden? A move like this combined with its historical debt pay down could cut its debt in half by, say, 2021 and get the company back to investment grade rating, something that Tom Sweet has aspired towards. This would drop hundreds of millions, if not a billion dollars to the bottom line. And it would allow Dell to continue to control VMware. What I don't know, I don't know if there are nuances to this scenario. In other words, does dropping ownership from roughly 80% to about 60% trigger some loss of control or some reporting issue? I'm sure it's buried somewhere in the public filings or acquisition docs, but this option to me makes some sense. It doesn't really radically alter the relationships with customers or partners, so it's kind of stable. If VMware maintains its existing autonomy, it even somewhat lessens Dell's perceived control over VMware and it attacks Dell's debt burden. Yeah, it's still a bit of a halfway house, but I think it's a more attractive and as I said, stable option in my view. Okay, let's talk about what to look for next. And it looks like the stock market is coming to the reality that we are actually in a recession, although it appears that NASDAQ is trying to ignore this. Or maybe the market's a little bit off because they're afraid Joe Biden's gonna win the election and he's not gonna be good for the economy. We'll see. We'll see what the economic shutdown means for tech companies in this earning season. ETR's next survey is in the field and they're gonna have fresh data on the impact of COVID going into the dog days of summer. Here's what I think. Let me give you my preview and we'll see in a few weeks how accurate it is. I believe that tech spending is gonna be soft broadly. I think it's gonna especially be the case for legacy on-prem providers and I expect their traditional businesses to deteriorate somewhat. I think there's gonna be bright spots in tech for sure, the ones we've reported on. Cloud, yes, absolutely. Automation, I'm really looking closely at the battle between the two top RPA vendors, automation anywhere in UiPath. I think there's a really interesting story brewing there. And the names that we've been pounding, like Snowflake, the security guys like CrowdStrike and Okta and Zscaler, I think they're gonna continue to do very well with this work from home pivot. We also expect Microsoft to continue to show staying power but because of their size, they're exposed to soft demand pockets but I think they continue to be very, very strong and threatening to a lot of segments in the market. Now for Dell, I think the data center business has continued to be a tough one despite some of the new product cycles, especially in storage. But I think Dell is gonna continue to benefit from the work from home pivot as I believe there's still some unmet demand in laptops. We're gonna see that I believe show up in Dell's income statement in the form of their client revenue. I'd love to know what you think. You can tweet me at D-Valante or you can always email me at david.valante at siliconangle.com. Please comment on my LinkedIn post, I always appreciate that. I post weekly on siliconangle.com and on wikibond.com, so check out those properties and of course go to etr.plus for all the survey action. As I say, ETR is in the field with the current survey, they got fresh COVID data so we're excited to report on that in the coming weeks. Remember, these episodes are all available as podcast wherever you listen. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching everyone. We'll see you next time.


If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind pump! Mind pump! With your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. In this episode of Mind Pump, Adam, myself, and our poor sick friend Justin. Start off the episode with our intro conversation. First we talk about Amazon Go, these are these new grocery stores with no employees. You walk in and out in very quick time and get great products. Sounds fantastic. Your jobs are gone. We talk about the minimum wage, because it's segwayed right into that wonderful political conversation. I'm sure you'll enjoy that one. If you're getting political lately, I'll do that a lot. We talked into automation and the future of low-skill jobs, that probably is none. We talked about adapting or dying, and when the robots take over, that'll be fun. We talked about religion and spirituality. Skynet. Great transitions here, I feel like. Just makes sense to go in that flow. It's a timeline right there. We mentioned Lion's Mane and Chaga, which are two mushrooms with incredible benefits. We are sponsored by FourSigmatic, which produces some of the best mushroom-based supplements you can find. We are sponsored by them.  If you enter the code mind pump without a space, you're going to get a massive, massive discount. We also mentioned the juve light. We haven't talked about that light in a long time. Because I took it. Therapy. Yeah. I noticed it was missing. Adam's shining it on his skin, on his scalp, and on his balls, and he's seeing some interesting effects. On his jack and balls. If you DM him, he'll send you a picture of all of those. That's right. I hang in until the end there. You guys can find out about my balls. Is it glowing red? By the way, we actually have a huge discount set up with juve. If you go to juve.com. That's a great transition right there. I know.  I know. J-O-O, if you go to J-O-O-V-V dot com four slash mind pump and then enter the code mind pump, they're going to give you a huge discount on these red lights. Then we also did some unboxing from Thrive Market, Justin got a bunch of brand new products. Most of them soap. That's a Bronner. Because he's filthy. I'm a big Bronner fan. If you go to thrivemarket.com forward slash mind pump, here is what you will get. One month free membership, $20 off your first three orders of $49 or more, and free shipping. And then we get into the question. Before we get into the questions, make sure you hook these people up with the app, Sal. Oh dude, we have a mind pump app now. If you go to the app store and you look up the mind pump app, you will be able to access our podcast much easier. You'll be able to look up different topics. You might even be able to message. I think you can send messages. Soon we're going to be able to do push notifications, stay in touch with everybody. We'll add stuff like YouTube. This is the beginning of the app that everybody's been asking for. And when you search, you search under mind pump media. Mind pump media. It's free for now. Get in there while it's hot. Then we get into the questions. The first question was, what's better, brown rice or white rice? Sounds like racism. Yeah. Next question. Yeah, why do we have to say that? I don't know. We agree with some of the popular figureheads in fitness that say, you know, over training doesn't really exist.   The next question was, is it a myth or fact that we store testosterone in our legs and that when you do squats and deadlifts, it pushes that testosterone out of your legs? Yeah, mainly my third legs. It's working for me to the rest of your body. Lots of testosterone in there. This poor individual. Maybe that was the legs he was talking about. This poor person has zero concept of basic human biology. So we answer that question. And finally last question, what is our opinion of clean meat? No, it's not the porn section on Pornhub that Justin found yesterday. We're actually talking about meat that's grown in the lab. You guys should check it out. So in other words, stem cells in a lab turned into meat for consumption. What do we think about it also sounds yummy? This month we're giving away t-shirts with the enrollment of any of our bundles. That's coming to an end right now by this is it's coming soon. It's going to end soon and I don't know about you guys, but I'm getting I got yesterday over a thousand DMs, a thousand over 1000 DMs or 10 something like that from people who got more reasonable. Some of our free shirts and had mystical experiences, mystical, yes, a guy put our shirt on, talked to God. Another person was an alcoholic, stopped drinking alcohol. Another woman, you know, she put the shirt on, she grew a cup size in her breast. All kinds of miracles are happening with these t-shirts. That's amazing. It's like a burning bush shirt. All kinds of miracles are happening with these t-shirts and we're just giving away for free because we don't give buck. All you got to do to get the shirt is enroll in one of our bundles. Now our most popular bundle.  Our most popular bundle is our maps super bundle. Somebody believed you. Uh, super bundles only for serious people. So if you're one of those people that's not very serious, you don't really want to get in shape, you can go ahead and fast forward. I'm talking to you serious people right now.  That's what Jess wants to fit.  It's the maps super bundle. It's one year of exercise programming. Basically, you don't got to worry about anything. It's all done for you. We did it all for you. I gotta do is following instructions. Okay.  It takes a year because that's how long it actually takes. We're not going to lie to you, but it's all planned out. Maps super bundle and you get a free mystical magical t-shirt limited edition this month only. Mind pump media dot com. I'm proud of Justin for being a trooper. Thanks, man. Pooper trooper. Yeah. Well, we got a man. We're about to fly off to Austin, man. We got a lot of stuff. Head back up. Is it been over a year since we went to on it? How long ago was it when we like it? How long ago was it when we went on it? It's got to be at least a year. We've been out there twice now or just once. Twice because of paleo effects. You're right. Yeah. Oh, that's right. So I think actually this year that was me. Paleo effects was April or May? April and May. So it's actually been longer than that since we went to on it.  It wasn't, we weren't like there. Right. So it's been over a year since we went to on an Academy to go. Cause I think so now that our boy Kyle is head of human optimization, right? That's what's the director of human optimization. I don't know. He's got an interesting title. Let me look him up real quick. He's got a badass title now. It's the director of human optimization. Let's see here. I'm going to ask Doug. If he doesn't say, I want a better title for what we're doing. He's host. Yeah. Kyle is one of those guys. He's one of those few individuals that you probably will never meet. That is like the super nice, peaceful. I love that dude.  Not a lot of guys have we allowed just to come into our little circle to the point where he's, you know, he spent the night with us. I feel like when you enter a new ring, but he spent the night with you. Yeah. You enter a new ring of friendship with me when you spend the night. Like kids. Like kids. Yeah.  Not like kids are sleeping. To me, you can't call someone a best friend or even a really good friend until they spent the night at your house. That's, that was true when we were friends. It's like friend code.  Yeah. I've only had, uh, there's only several people that's ever slept over my house. I wasn't a big sleepover dude when I was a kid. That's another another way of saying that is you didn't have a lot of friends. No, I had tons. That's sad. It's so many. I had the most. I had the most. No, I only had, uh, let me see. You didn't have all the cool toys. My cousin slept over. It was always family. Actually, I had a lot of cousins my age. So I never really had like school friend sleepover because why? You know what I mean? Well, cause you didn't have a lot of friends. I think it's okay.  It's fine. Yeah. My family loved me. That's what you just said to me. Yeah. I had a good family. My family loved me, Adam. That's why I had, did you, did you have a lot of friends sleepover? I did. They did. I did a lot of sleeping over at other friends house too. Because my house was so chaotic, you know, not to get all dark on people and some of that. But because there was a lot of fighting, a lot of bullshit in my house, any chance I could spend the night at friends house. I was the friend. I pulled that maneuver, which I think I've talked about on the show before, where I'd be calling my friends up like, hey, ask your mom if I could spend the night, dude, call your mom up, ask her if it's cool if I could stay the night. You know, so I was always trying to stay the night somewhere else. Not to, I mean, other than just the fighting part of my family growing up, but we didn't have a lot of cool stuff either. So I had a lot of my friends were on the other side of the tracks. So they had, they had all the cool toys, the latest and greatest Nintendo or what was basketball hoops. I was always trying to squeeze in some Zelda. Yeah, man.  Yeah, there's a few of my friends that had it and we didn't have it yet. And we had like the Atari 2000 or 1000. Is that what it was? It's a 2100. Yeah. Before, before then the NES came out and it was like, it took forever for me to get it. So I was like staying at everybody's house that had it that I could. Dude, we used to play Super Contra. That was the game. Remember that? And you do the Konami code. Up, up, down, down, down, left, right, left, right. B.A. like start. How weird is that? So this is before, obviously before the internet, but everybody knew it. Like everybody got that code. Like things spread, they still spread regardless. Now it's the internet's different, right?  They have different, they have a different name for that. What do they call it? Mods. And what did my little brother, I heard him saying something. There's, there's terminal. I'm like was a gamer for a long time, but now like I just don't even understand the terminology they use for game hacks.  So all these kids like buy mods for their character and stuff and they go in.  Yeah. Gaming's changed, changed a lot. Pretty funny. You guys see in the news recently with Uber, whether they acquired Ando A-N-D-O, I believe is a company. It's a Uber Eats. Yes, Uber Eats projected to do three billion dollars in revenue. So is this where you order food and they go pick it up for you? Yeah, it's just like there's a lot of services that do that right now.  Uber Eats is going to surpass Uber Drive or Uber rides or whatever it's called. So Ando explained like that was a company that already like made their own food. Is that what I? Right. So they were already like a, what's DoorDash is what we use here, right? DoorDash is a company that we use locally. So Ando was another company like that. They were actually like a restaurant delivery service without a brick and mortar restaurant. And they were really successful and good what they did. So Uber was already working as a partnership with them. They ended up acquiring them and rumor has it that this is one of many to come. This is Uber's big play against Amazon and Whole Foods and Amazon getting into this. This is so great. Right. I love this.  Yeah, the go store up in Seattle. So I've been I've been reading about I got waiting for this to happen.  My bro, I shared this already. So I was reading an article about it and people were being interviewed as they were going in there. And it's like you're in and out in 30 seconds. There's nothing. My theory is they're going to convert all the Whole Foods to that. Dude, that'd be the easiest transition is so they opened up the goes. This is what I think this and this is purely speculation. I don't know for sure, but from all the articles that I've read, the books that I've read in this field, I love this stuff. I think that what's happening is Amazon's big move was the whole food purchase. We know that we see them trying to drop prices and make smart strategies like you brought up with the water the other day. The next big transition, I think, and that was the whole point of running these Amazon go stores, make sure they're successful, get all the kinks out. And then I think we're going to see either this year or next year, then roll out the Amazon go stores will now be Whole Foods. I think you'll just put the system in place. It only makes sense. Plus, dude, it needs to happen.    It's a matter of time. It's a matter of time for a few different reasons. There's no need for anymore. Here's the thing that people need to understand about what is going to happen. There's really no way around this. It's going to happen. Low-skilled jobs are going to be replaced. And the more we, and we can only accelerate it by raising minimum wage loss. I know. That's the irony in all of this is the people that vote for minimum wage going off. They're just accelerating the inevitable. They are eliminating jobs. Right. It's almost like you're robbing Peter to pay Paul right now. It's like you're asking for something to go up so you can make a dollar more an hour because it sounds like a good idea for you because maybe you're a checker for whole foods, but you're only going to be a checker for whole foods for maybe another year now. And we need to be clear. Like to be very clear, if we don't raise minimum wage, it doesn't mean that it's still not going to happen. It's going to happen. Technology is going to replace or, you know, it's going to create so much efficiency that it's going to be, it's not going to make any sense to have a human do a low skill type of job. I'll tell you what though. So they're going to be gone. Here's where I disagree with that. It wouldn't if we did allow to pay people $4 an hour if they were, here's the thing, right? So imagine you're, you're not whole foods, but you're in the grocery store market. Maybe you're in a small town and maybe your theory is that I still, there's something about the personable side of a grocer checking you out. So it would be nice as a store owner. If I had the ability to offer jobs to people that may, may not be qualified to get 10, $15, $20 an hour jobs, but I could pay them $5 an hour. Now we can still give this like, you know, customer service feel for five bucks an hour. Right. No, no, no, I know it's not possible. It's not, I'm not saying it's not possible. It's, but part of the reason why it's not possible is because we've driven the minimum wage laws up. Had you still, if that didn't exist, you still would let it, it still would be competitive for somebody who could do that. But when you drive the minimum wage up that high as a store owner, now you have to do the math of, okay, I have 10 cash years that work for me at an average of 200 something hours per week.  I don't care if there's, yes, raising minimum wage laws for sure is accelerating the inevitable. When you're going to cost 15 bucks an hour to employ you, now the cost of a machine to do it doesn't have to be super cheap. It just has to be cheap. That's what I mean. If you were paying them four or five dollars, it's not necessarily. But it's still, it's still going to happen. It's still going to happen in its inevitable, but it could be something that he takes 10 or 20 years to get there versus like companies now will be forced to look at this because it's, it's, I remember, okay, so the CEO of 24 hour fitness, Carl Liebert, who was after Mark Mastroff came in and this was their vision for 24 hour fitness because he came from Home Depot, he was responsible for that. He was the CEO to bring in the self-checkout. So he was that was love it. Yeah, he was the self-checkout model guy who brought CEO who brought that to Home Depot and was the big turnaround there. He, and that was part of why 24 hour fitness brought him on board there because that was the evolution of how they did sales and check in and they wanted to eventually, which is actually a good lesson in understanding that that works well for some industries works terrible for others. Again, going to my point, this is what I meant by if you can't tell me that if minimum wage was more competitive or meaning that it didn't exist and I could pay somebody, whatever, whatever someone was willing, it's obviously voluntary. Yes, right. Whatever somebody was willing to work for and I'm the small mom pod chain, you know, it might make sense for me to keep, you know, four or five of these cashier employees that pay a low dollar, but I found them and they're, they're passionate about what they do and maybe they have the, they have an old, they have a record and so they can't get a really good job, but they really want to try and contribute to society now. And so here's what I, so here's where I'm going with this. I do. I totally get where you're going. I understand your rationale, but here's the thing. People don't, if people want that kind of service for, from a grocery store where they go in and talk and meet with someone that individual is going to have a higher level of skill. They're not going to work for five bucks an hour and it's a different environment altogether. Now I'm going to a, we're using arbitrary numbers right now too. I'm not saying four or five dollars.  Now when you go to a gym, some people want that and that model does exist, but some people also want people there who know what they're doing to help them, which is why fitness is a little different. But at the end of the day, low-skilled jobs are going to disappear. Now what people don't, what people need to understand is that does not mean we now have less jobs. That's not at all what it means. In fact, if jobs free, if free step opportunity for that company to grow and do other things and provide more jobs, not just that, but it's the unknown. It's the unseen. Like you have, if, if a company can create an environment or a business like these Amazon grocery stores where you go and check in and out and they're saving money, we've now increased efficiency, which now increases wealth, opportunities explode from that, which is why today, even though, you know, if most jobs from a hundred years ago don't exist anymore, but obviously today it's much more, it's much better off, more wealth, there's more opportunities.  It just sounds good in politics, but it's, it's a very, it's a, it's a very exciting, interesting future and we are entering into a time where the low-skill type stuff is, is going to be replaced by robots and you're going to need more high-skill, you know, employees or employee for, for a different job. This is why here in Silicon Valley, you know, the people get paid so much for tech. It's not because part of the reason why is there's not a lot of supply. Like there's not a lot of labor to do this stuff.  Just to find talent because it's so hard to find talent. It's so competitive. It's so good.    You know what I'm saying? So it's very, very interesting. There's also, this is another good one. I actually was watching this video on China and a lot of people think that companies like Apple go to China because labor is cheap. That's actually not true. China's labor is not really cheap anymore.  So if you need the kind of people who can operate the machinery and the tools to make these phones, which is a very specific set of skills. It's high scale. It's still high skill. It's a very specific set though of these high skills. There is a very big shortage here in the U.S. Like if Apple wanted to open up a place to make iPhones here, they wouldn't be able to find enough people. Just think this is why I believe that's why they go to China when Apple and Facebook and Google University all comes out, bro. It's going to be a game. It has to be.  That was the limiting factor. They'll have you just think of it just like when you went to college and you had all these different, you know, expertise or degrees that you could go towards, you're going to have this lit and it's all job opportunities for the for these companies.  But the best probably be individual. The best thing we can do is get out of the way and don't stop creating false barriers with the market. Stop creating this bullet. You know, we're trying to protect people in reality. What we're doing is we're slowing down the process because it will. What'll happen and what happens in markets when they're like this is the is it becomes a market where employers are fighting over talent. That becomes the limiting factor. You know, awesome. That is now.  We have the money.  If you're trying to get a job, you know, nice it is to go to different employers and then be like, who's going to pay me the most? Which one do I want to and have them bid on you? That is a very real reality in fields like tech that innovate so quickly because they're so unregulated in many ways like tech grows so quickly shit, man. I was what was I looking at the other day? There was an ad. That's what it was. It was a an ad from I don't know early 1980s from Radio Shack, which do they exist still? They do barely, but they and it was a cell phone. Remember the old cell phones? It was like a huge brick and then there was like a cable that attached to a briefcase. The price in the ad Gordon gecko special bro. The price in the ad not even adjusted for inflation was like eight hundred dollars. So this is like 1983 if you want the cell phone which was shit and all it could do is make phone calls and it didn't really work that well and it was massive and expensive. It was huge, huge briefcase and big old brick under so you ain't hiding that thing anywhere. That would have cost you in those dollars eight hundred dollars. Today if you want a phone that just makes phone calls, that's all it does. You don't want a smartphone for like a dollar.  Yeah, they'll give away. Yeah, how awesome is that? That's crazy.  That's why I don't really when people trip out on like that the iPhone X and stuff how expensive it is. Oh, it's so overrated and it's inflated somewhat but that's because we've talked about this before Apple is a luxury brand but it still has replaced my my laptop, my desktop and any way that I everything. Yeah, everything I literally work from my phone all day long. Never think about it this way a billionaire from or the richest man in the world. 150 years ago. Okay, the Richard think I don't know who it is. I don't know Rockefeller just ridiculous wealth incredible amount of money does did not and could not have the tools access information and whatever that a you know lower middle class person would have today. They just didn't have it didn't exist all the money in the world. It's a cool way to put it all the money in the world and they could not have what your you know typical high school kid has what there's just fucking smartphone how awesome and crazy is that so every single industry is affected everything and that's why retail you know like I was talking to somebody else like it you see a lot of people afraid of this change you know like different like industries where they're you know their mom and pop shops or they're like you know they're dealing in retail they're dealing with you know products that that you know they're competing now with Amazon coming in and then just like offering it it's just it's kind of crazy in it and it makes you kind of wonder like how they're going to survive or what they're going to do to shift and they really need to think about what happens is when you're and we've seen this happen throughout all of history and you can go to different countries and see where people have tried to implement this but what happens throughout all the history is innovation or technology or something comes in and starts to feel threatening to the to the people who are doing whatever you know job so if I'm you know if I'm making a product if I'm making I use this example all the time but if I'm making wagon wheels and all of a sudden I see this new invention called an automobile like I'm terrified because my skill is in making wagon wheels and if this automobile takes off and everybody starts getting this and instead and stops getting horses and and buggies like I'm fucked now if there's enough of me what they do is we will go to our government and we will lobby them and say hey we need to protect our jobs we are going to lose our jobs we're gonna if we don't if we lose our jobs everybody's fucked there's a there's a and we'll vote for you if you help us and what they do is they they pass laws to protect those jobs and in reality what they do is a stifle innovation they reduce efficiency and what we don't see which isn't as clear it's the unseen what they call an economics is this destruction of progress and wealth where if we just let that stuff happen are they're gonna yeah but you say that remember I told you today this is the part where that's such a catch 22 or what a conundrum to be in where you have you know thousands of employees you've you know this has been in my dad started this business 70 years ago and I'm carrying it on 30 and my employees are like my family and you know what we've been making the wood wheel for fucking 100 years now and incomes like a taxi company well yeah and they come in and they got it you got to ask yourself like so there's a part of me that I totally agree and I'm like I get frustrated to like let progress happen where you're only hurting us long term but you're empathizing with the other side right so can I right so can I I can only imagine what a difficult decision like we were first we were in the gyms for a long time right personal trainers I mean this is probably not going to happen for for any in the near futures I'm sure this will take a while but let's just imagine that some company invents ridiculous artificial intelligence and it's a robot and it's indistinguish indistinguishable from a human and it's a personal trainers and they're going to do it for ten bucks an hour and they're fucking good and they're motivational and here I am now in a gym I mean that's threatening yeah it's a scary so I can empathize with that but what we need to do is look at the whole and say to ourselves like is that really what it's all about or is it that I mean what what do humans do what do we do what makes us what separates us for us from the animals is that we progress and we progress off of each other's progress not off of our own I did not enter this world and invent everything around me I entered this world and there was all this awesome shit already and if I want to innovate in whatever and grow I can add on top of that and it just and it just continues to grow grow grow also why it's so important that you're always evolving in your business right and always searching for that blue water because you know if you get caught just enjoying the ride in business it's real easy that's when somebody else comes up and go that's all when people tell me they'll say something like oh aren't you afraid that there's gonna be no jobs that AI is gonna do everything and I look I whenever someone says that to me I reef I try to like rephrase it to them it's okay so what you're saying is there's a future where machines do everything for sounds like you told me this shit that sounds like heaven to me that sounds pretty fucking work out and just like read that sounds pretty fucking awesome you know I'm saying like that that sounds like a cool future if you ask me and will it pose incredible challenges on humans well I think so I don't think we've ever been in a situation where we didn't have to do anything and will that be difficult for a lot of people I think so I know a lot of people when they retire become depressed or get really sick because now they have they don't have any meaning so I think it'll totally reframe you know what what you know humanity like okay well now what's my meaning I don't have a place if I don't have to do anything everything's provided to me like do we just become apathetic you know lazy fools we just come idiots or do we become star travelers or do we already speaking of what we talk to Elon you would say that for sure so yeah so speaking of which so I've been doing a lot of reading on this is some pretty interesting stuff I don't want to go too far next I know we're gonna end up going deep with this but there's this there's been this debate for a while that the brain the human brain is hardwired for mystical experiences in fact they can simulate a godlike mystical experience in your brain in a laboratory and we know that psychedelic drugs and stuff like that will do that also to people and we know that you know the reason why religion has so much power and why it's existed for so long is it does that I find it fascinating because is it hardwired into our brains because it we evolved and it helped us or is it hardwired into our brains because there really is something out there there really is something driving us that's the big question right it's it's really fascinating it's really fast sort of the divide between you know somebody that believes or doesn't right well you know there's a whole like where does morality come from where do we where do humans derive our idea of morals and did that create religion or was it the belief and all these other things that then created that morality is that what separate the egg yeah and there's a lot of scientists that think it was the it was that the religion it was those breakthroughs and those beliefs in things like an afterlife like we take it for granted now but imagine if you're you know a primitive ape or whatever in you all of a sudden have the cons of this concept of well when I die I still exist like there's something beyond that or whatever or when this person dies or this with there's something beyond that's breakthrough thought it's very very fascinating very interesting did you start the series with Jordan Peters yet have you started that little bit you did a little bit yeah so I'm kind of getting into it I find it fascinating because I've known how important religion is to just to just so when I so I went through this whole process myself where I grew up in a Catholic family and then I totally rejected it because it was really easy to see the the hypocrisy and contradictions of modern religion it's very easy to see some of the bad stuff that they've done and I'm talking about all the major religions but and so I became very atheist very very strong atheist and then as I learned about evolution I started learning about history I started learning about you know quantum physics and some of the weird stuff that happens there I started to see that and learn that religion played such a important was like such a huge role in mankind's evolution it wasn't like on accident was something that we needed to progress as a people and if you think about it it's hung around for long forever like right and why would we need it now and yet it's still quite powerful it's very very interesting and so that made me move away from atheism and more towards being agnostic and being like well this is quite interesting like why is this lasted for so long and why do we seem primed to believe in these things right you know what you know what I was fascinated with is and I have been watching his stuff I think after you sent that over last week I have done like a super deep dive on him and I'm super pro getting him on the show and so I hope that happens for everybody the next month or so because probably one of the most compelling speakers that I've listened to ever possibly and one of the things I was really fascinated I noticed I was first listening to his speeches and I could tell by a lot of the quotes and the analogies and some of the things he gave I was like this guy definitely has some biblical undertones and then I started searching that with his name and realize holy shit he's done all kinds of great talks on this he's got one that's got well over a million views I have never in my life ever seen this and YouTube is examples search and tell me if you or someone share with me if you seen this before a talk where I've seen as many atheists and Christian people comment positively about a speech that is crazy to me how this man gave a talk for two and a half hours on the religion right and then was able to speak to both Christian minds and atheist minds positively that blew my mind yeah how powerful that that talk I think if you're an objective if you're objective when you speak in your you're trying to be objective you're trying to be accurate you're trying to be and be honest I think you can do that I think it nowadays it's hard to find people who are just totally honest regardless of what you know PC culture says regardless of who you think you may offend you know just be very clear very honest without a bias without what looks like an ulterior motive and the truth is powerful you know I'm saying the truth is very powerful and he you know I don't know all of his stuff but I know when he speaks he's just like it's not his opinion he's like hey here's what everything so the way he talks on on this subject he prefits it with listen I'm not saying I do or I don't believe here but what I am in I'm very fascinated like what you said was something that has been around for as long as it has has been as impactful in our society arguably probably one of the most impactful things it's the root of Christianity in particular the Judeo-Christian civilization is what it's what the belief in it's very unique now I'm sure I'm gonna piss people off but whatever this is true when you look at the roots of Western society Western society which was very unique and among all societies valued the individual and believed in what were known as we call them liberties or ineliable rights and they said they believe that because God created man all people were born with these rights that were bestowed upon them by their creator so doesn't matter if you're a king doesn't matter if you're you know a ruler or a dictator or whatever everybody has particular things that are bestowed upon them particular rights and they are they're yours you don't you don't derive them from anyone else so they're you're born with them so like my you know I can speak what I want to say I should be able to believe what I want I should be able to protect myself you know against threats like these these are what are called rights and they believe in the individual and people realize just how powerful that philosophy is and how right that philosophy is that is a very that is not arguably that is a hundred percent the better philosophy now it hasn't been expressed perfectly obviously right leave it to humans to distort something and fuck it up that's right but that philosophy is what caused Western society to elevate women to you know to treat everybody or to aim to treat to treat people equally even though it wasn't like that in the beginning it's again that's the philosophy that pushes that forward and it's and you got to consider this like look George Washington wins the revolution right he was given the throne literally they wanted to make him king and he said no I don't want to be king now any man would have said yes I'll take that I'll be the king and I'll rule this and I can I can run things and I think I'm pretty fucking awesome he said no because he believed in something much bigger than himself and he believed in this philosophy of rights of liberty of the individual which was derived from these these religious roots so it's literally the the foundation of it doesn't mean you have to be religious or anything like that it's just important to note that why would these men give up their power that they could have given that they could have totally had if they did not believe in it's because they believed in something much bigger than them so that's it that's just an important thing to to know and it's a very true thing so anyway I'm on fire right now I had a little bit of that lion's mane force that you guys feel like that when you take it I don't take that one is I use chaga the most right now because of first for your skin yep is it working for you well I mean I'm doing so many things right now the one thing that and I didn't want to bring this up and you bring it you calling me out right now because I still feel it's a little too early but I'm noticing some real positive benefits on my psoriasis right now but the biggest thing that I've changed and I've been taking the chaga I've been doing all my other stuff for my hormones very consistent the most consistent thing or the most recent thing that I've added to the rotation and been more consistent did you notice that I took the juve not too long ago oh you've been doing that so I'm every every morning and night I'm using it so what are you doing just like 15 balls yet naked I'm sitting so I've got it right next to my bed so that was the main reason is I'm doing it for my testosterone but I'm actually seeing my psoriasis cleanup for interesting so that's what was really neat was I was doing it for the testosterone that's been well known that that helps right and I knew that right but I just hadn't put the I hadn't put the regimen together to like test it to see if I'm seeing any benefits and plus I believe my diet has to be somewhat consistent for me because you're doing a lot of things you do in right you do chaga regularly which we know that that study show that helps with right with psoriasis at all the ashwagandha that's all for testosterone then you you did the fast now you're keto you know then I'm like paleo now I show you okay and then you're doing the the light right fucking great you know I really like about that is that you're you're using all all the tools that your disposal that we've learned about since we've had this show which is great and it's fucking working how great is that yeah it is and you know me on the most probably the skeptical or probably Justin and I are probably the most skeptical when it comes to things like this and so I wasn't gonna bring it up but since you asked yes I've been using the chaga to yes I've been seeing great benefits from all the things I'm doing there has been I have noticed a difference with my testosterone I all I noticed a huge difference in me being consistent or inconsistent with it too so I had a couple days where we traveled somewhere and I didn't have my all my testosterone stuff with me and or hormones to libido stuff whatever you want to call it with me and so I noticed a dip right away so I do notice that I have to be very consistent with using that I can't say that I've seen a huge spike on the testosterone from the Juve light yet but I can say that I've seen a huge improvement on my skin in the short amount of time that I've been using consistent that's freaking great I mean the cool thing about plant herbs and stuff that have been used for a long and again you cannot you know I hate it one guy when you know what scientists or you know PhDs or whatever will come out and be like it's herbal stuff it's like man that shit's been around for thousands of years and been used for a long time yeah for a reason it would not be hanging around this long like lion's mane has been used for cognitive function to improve like you know your ability to think for thousands of years by China for Chinese medicine and now we finally have studies proving that it actually does benefit the brain how funny is that science always has to catch up yeah how funny is that though that like this thing's been used for thousands of years it's in all these you know these writings and stuff and we take it we're like let's see if this really works and we start testing a lab and like oh shit so here's a cool one that I there was a 2012 study done in Malaysia that found that consuming lion's mane mushrooms could actually regenerate damaged cells from peripheral nerve injury so it's an injury that affects like the delicate tissue between your brain and the spinal cord that's fucking crazy that's that's huge to you know I mean I don't know what that I mean it could mean something huge right because one of the you know one of the things that we've still struggled with doing in stem cells are kind of cool on this but still we don't know what's going on somebody becomes paralyzed or you lose you know you lose feeling in something because you have nerve damage or people with neurological type disorders that could be interesting study on something like lion's mane because it's already showing some benefits so hmm pretty cool stuff wow we have a box oh shit but this is not just any box which one is this one this is Justin's box oh yeah my box hopefully there's some good stuff let's see if the yeah let's see if he ordered tampons like south I love Justin's box I don't think so did you didn't get any tampons you don't get your girl the organic ones I don't do any of that shopping on Justin's list let's see what you got from Santa that looks like a bottle of alcohol the problem I hope so yeah some whiskey maybe they wrap not mess around I tell you oh look at tight this is actually thrive market brand organic virgin olive oil gotta keep them virgin you don't want to get them slowly all the extracted beautiful thank you Doug you know what that's gonna be on my list now too after I saw that that article or that news thing that we just read and watched about the virgin or virgin oil is been is one of the top ones that they they fuck with and manipulate yeah like they say organic they'll mix it and they mix and that's cheap as you know if it's organic it's more stringent but if it's just like extra virgin olive oil they found that they'll test a bunch of them and like 70% of them have like soybean oil right now I'm always in the olive oil so it's good and then we also have a thrive market brand natural home liquid laundry detergent have you used this yet just no I'm no this is the first time using laundry tell us when you're going through this because I'm interested in stuff that you've used already or what's new to you yeah I don't know if it's had any scent to it or anything doesn't look like it so free and clear biodegradable does it does it come in the pod so you put it in your mouth I don't think so oh man I can't do a YouTube video of this now I think you have really come to love dr. Bronner's products Justin I do I don't know what it is but I just like everything I got my whole house set up with these dr. Bronner products so you've used the one that Doug's giving you right now yeah this is 18 in one hemp peppermint pure castile soap oh that's the one I use I take a shower excellent I've used it for years use it for body wash or is this for for the body body wash okay although I don't put it on my pee hole very often because it burns but yeah I wouldn't yeah a little tingling yeah it's peppermint you know super fresh I've done it before and it was not peppermint nuts concentrated they put a ton of peppermint oil it'll go right in your pee hole it's not good now this is another dr. Bronner's product cinnamon all one toothpaste you should see if you're sponsored by him that's the one I use we should I'm like a big fan so that's like a toothpaste with cinnamon so okay it's like the toms that I get about the other yeah the other version too so more dr. Bronner's peppermint organic shaving soap yes Jesus Christ bro bro I told you all the Bronners you got a boner I've got a boner I've already used all the rest of how's the shaving cream because I'm pretty picky about my shaving cream too well here's the thing it's like it comes on like a liquid right foams up so it's not just foam up it foams up a little bit it's not foamy like it's not yeah but it but yeah I like the phone oh it looks like it looks like foam gets me every time is that you it is organic valley ghee ooh what do you do with ghee just then you put it on your vegetables yeah yeah one more item here wrapped up in a tight bundle it's a pee hole protector for when you shower with dr. Bronner's peppermint oil little rain cap that is as ashwagandha yeah it's actually ashwagandha yeah my gosh Adam yeah there go buddy drops I recognize that night I recognize that bottle beautiful taste like shit work oh god you know I have my little work super well I have to take a shot of water afterwards you are the biggest you cannot handle bad taste you are a weirdo you know what I think I think you've oversaturated your system with all the fucking pills and powders you took for a few years as you don't even I used to blend taste does not matter you think you're a hardcore you're not I used to fucking get a blender obviously I'm not no joke water tuna fish egg yolks peanut butter drink it I see that for a way never would you get black peanut butter and tuna oh wrong with you I don't fuck around guys serious you're willing to do both you know what it just goes to show why you're so passionate about what we talk about because I would be so angry to if I was doing some shit like that for you know that doesn't make me angry makes me happy forgot the questions Doug this cause brought to you by organifi for those days you fall short on getting your organic veggies or whole food nutrition organifi fills the gap with laboratory tested certified organic superfoods to help give your health a performance the added edge try organifi totally risk-free for 60 days by going to organifi.com that's or gani fi.com and use a coupon code mine pump for 20% off at checkout first question is from literally on a car what's better brown rice or white rice so this is a great by the way she's got a great page she travels all over the world some pretty cool pictures so this is a very good question because the answer seems obvious but it's actually shocking in fitness we've been told for a long time that brown rice is better because it's got you know what more fiber it's got more nutrients white rice they need to remove more of the rice you know whole or whatever the brand in order to consume it so it's probably not as good it's got a higher glycemic index so it's going to affect your blood sugar better than that the other here's the real deal now first and foremost not a big difference if you can tolerate both really doesn't matter if you have gut issues or if you have any inflammatory issues white is actually better white is better and this is because a lot of people don't realize it's funny too because I've been listening to I listened to some podcasts with that carnivore guy the guy that just eats meat yeah and he makes a lot of these honest points and that is that plants evolved with lots of predators and plants can't run away and they can't really defend themselves like predators can they don't have claws they don't have teeth they don't have feet so the way that plants one way that plants defend themselves is they start to create these compounds in them that make them hard to digest that make them where you consume them and you get an immune reaction lots of plants have these now if wheat is like that like if you grab wheat and just ate it it would fuck you up pretty bad so we've humans have learned how to process wheat and do all these different things to wheat so that we can digest an ancient people actually took a long time to make wheat you know that deferment in the field and pestle that's it stuff and lots of plants have these things this is why if you eat a whole bunch one of the reasons why you eat a whole bunch of raw broccoli you're more likely to have an upset stomach than if you cook the hell out of it cooking vegetables and things breaks those things down and makes them more digestible this is why certain foods tend to have you know tend to be more or cause more immune problems and people and rice is one of these things if you have gut issues or if you have issues with digesting you're the odds that you'll have trouble digest digesting and assimilating brown rice are much higher than they are with white rice I'm one of those people I can have brown rice but I can't consume a lot of it like it can well white white white rice doesn't doesn't bother me at all I can eat a lot of it it's just much easier to digest brown rice on the other hand starts to bother me the other thing too is brown rice contains compounds which are known as anti nutrients these compounds actually block or reduce the absorption of certain minerals in the body and in some cases can cause mineral deficiencies which is why in lots of countries throughout the world especially countries that consume a lot of rice they historically don't consume brown rice all consume white rice including the old you know Eastern European Eastern that was like mind-blowing to me when you talked about that like a year or two ago I remember we covered this topic and it was just like the anti nutrient like it was so professed that this was you know it's definitely brown rice the irony to even the things that Sal did say on the positive side of brown rice to are very minimal so when you talk about the low glycemic index you talk about calories like that it's actually fucking a nutrient difference you're talking about splitting hairs I mean flip the label around on the back of a rice tastes better anyway they're almost exactly the same and I believe the glycemic index difference is a couple points it's nothing yeah it's not like a 70 on the glycemic index and then like a 30 it's like it's 56 and 58 you know so close and guess what if you have even a mild reaction to brown rice if you haven't a mild intolerance to it your blood sugar is going to spike like crazy anyway because right whenever the body senses stress the liver tends to shoot out sugar this is why you know they've done these studies where they have people wearing these continual glucose monitors that measure your glucose in real time and some people will have like a blood sugar spike when they eat like an avocado or something weird like that has no carbs no sugar whatsoever just all individual variants and it's because they have they might have an immune reaction to it so brown rice may actually cause might be worse on the glycemic index for you than than white rice the compounds in brown I had to look them up because I totally forgot are called phytates and phytates like phytic acid bind to minerals so like zinc copper iron magnesium niacin calcium and when they bind to these minerals your body now can't utilize them and so if you're in it's you know I wouldn't worry so much about causing nutrient deficiencies if you live in you know wealthy society and you're in lots of variety of different food but if like you have brown rice with every meal you may be causing yourself some issues with nutrients but again that being said brown rice not only is not healthier but if I if when I recommend people eat rice I always recommend white rice always just because it's so much easier on the body easily digestible far less likely to cause intolerance is far less likely to cause immune reactions doesn't have those anti-nutrient effects and the good news is I don't know about you guys but I think I like to taste the white rice oh way better way better yeah it's way better way better but yeah if you go to these old cultures you go to China who's been consuming rice for a long time they don't consume brown rice now they're eating white rice now you see the difference I think the was it enriched is that what they say white rice that's enriched or non-enriched you know the difference of that when they throw like a train at it yes so I think that's the biggest difference of like you know making a better choice on on the white or not is getting the ones that are not enriched because what they'll do is they'll add vitamins and minerals to it way better for you just to eat it natural in its whole state so I think I want to say it's enriched is the term they use baby I better check that but well anytime something's enriched that's usually what it might not be I'm trying to think what's on but dude I'll tell you what man I think it's enriched I'll tell you what I've been so I listen I listen to that guy the carnivore diet guy I can't remember his name we're gonna have him on the show so I apologize but he was talking about he's talks about some of this so I started doing more and I've known about some of the stuff so I've been doing more research and it's funny well most many times not always but many times when you have people with gut issues or inflammatory issues or autoimmune issues they seem to do better Dr. Sean Baker thanks thanks Doug they seem to do better when they eliminate most first of all all grains dairy and legumes and stuff like that and it's usually like they do better with like meats and maybe some some green veggies although some people respond to those two but meats usually are okay and that's because you know animals don't need to have defense mechanisms in their flesh because they can run they can fight they can kill you so plants didn't have that luxury so they had to evolve creating these things making them difficult to digest because if you're you know if you're animals and you're eating this plant and you know fuck that destroyed my stomach I'm not gonna go back and eat that plant again so lots of plants have those types of things cooking them destroys quite a bit of it which is again tackling the whole that's another issue the whole like raw vegan you know eat all your vegetables raw whatever now you're probably better off cooking them for the most part and that's one of the reasons next question is from IGNKNT14 do you agree with some of the more popular figureheads that say simply eating more can help enhance recovery you know so how many times have you guys heard this let's figure figureheads so I think I know what they mean how many I'm sure you've heard this in the bodybuilding world Adam there's no such thing as overtraining there's only under eating oh okay you're okay you think that's what you said yeah oh figure meaning like figure competitors no figureheads is like somebody that represents like like someone who's authority and so they equate recovery to food oh you've never heard that now have you heard that right Adam yeah absolutely that's very how how much piss you off it's funny no one of the things I remember seeing a lot of when I was first getting into it is is that people posting videos if there's no such thing as overtraining over the idea of overtraining is overrated and you're just under eating you're not eating enough that's like so that's been drilled into it and here's the thing there's there is some truth to that a lot of people probably do train too hard and not consume enough food and so that and if your goal is to gain and big that you may be missing on nutrients are getting enough calories I went through this as a young boy growing up trying to build muscle I couldn't keep up with the amount of calories that my body was burning so therefore I need to eat more but that is not like it that's too much of an overarching statement to just say super simple yeah no it's way more complex than that and and in more cases than not it's wrong right that was somebody is doesn't need to just eat more more foods and they can keep continuing to train that no I mean you can definitely eat too little and inhibit your body's ability to recover but if you're if you're adequately fed and your training is wrong because you're training too hard to or too frequently or just too much volume for your body at that particular moment to handle simply throwing more food into your mouth won't help very much or at all in fact you're probably gonna get fat and a lot of the people that I've that I've known that have said this to me were those kind of people who go these crazy bulks and they're like no man I just eat more food and it's like they're 30% body fat and it's like well I see what's happening with all this extra food that you're eating and it's not muscle that you're gaining it's body fat food plays a massive role the quantity of food and the calories that you eat and the amount of macro nutrients is important but so is you know what you're eating and your training your training is a big part I mean what I mean what would you guys say is one of the reason the big reasons why people have issues with recovery you could definitely see that's why that's why the statement is tough and I definitely don't like the over generalization of saying that that's all you need to do because there are some people that I think suffer with this right so if you're trying to you know build or I've seen this more common with like female competitors where they're so used to these hard crash diets where they're starving their body of nutrients and they're sore all the time too so that could be a combination of both one them needing more adequate rest or them overtraining their bodies those that could be one factor and then another factor could also be that they're under consuming nutrients so they're they're underfeeding the body and they're also overtraining so the combination that's causing this major plateau I've seen a lot of people get because it's like the perfect storm right when especially pre-contest because your your training volume is through the roof you're eating very little it's pretty common for people to get sick right before a contest or right after a contest very very common very very common I think out of all my shows 50% of them I got sick either leading right into the show or right after the show for sure just from the over just yeah pushing your body yeah cause there's no doubt in my mind I mean that and I've expressed this many times competing is not healthy for the body especially when you get into those final two weeks I'm completely deprived I'm 100% depriving my body of the nutrients that it wants or needs I mean I'm trying to be catabolic right so if you're on a mission to be catabolic for two three four weeks in in on straight and then on top of that training the body really hard so you're trying to maintain that volume so you're you're sitting that signal to the body to hang on to that muscle that you work so hard to build over the past six months or whatever it was so yeah I know those those signals are are conflicting a bit when you're when you're hitting the hitting the gym that hard and then also restricting calories it's kind of a recipe for disaster for sure here's something else that you know when I've said this before but I just want to make clear that I mean adaptation okay so recovering adaptation can be two separate things and I want to say that because recovering is healing from something adaptation is when your body is trying to make itself stronger so that stress next time dresses for yes it's trying to overcompensate or super compensate so when you're working out you're causing damage to your muscle and recovery starts to happen but you've also sent a signal to your body that tells it to adapt and build build muscle both those signals although they happen congruently and they happen together or not the same which is why I think people confuse them to be the same because they happen kind of at the same time like I'm recovering but I'm also building but they are different and we do know we have studies that show that after a heavy workout that muscle building signal that we measure through something called protein synthesis or muscle protein synthesis peaks at about 24 48 maybe maybe 72 hours so if you hit your legs really really really hard on Monday by on Wednesday that muscle building adaptation signal is at its peak but you still may be sore on Thursday and Friday and that signal that muscle building signal drops very fat after a peak it starts to go down very very quickly so you may still be recovering Friday and Saturday because you overdid it and you're thinking oh I'm still sore therefore I'm still building muscle nope that muscle building signal not only did it fall after Wednesday but now it's below baseline because your body will not build more muscle unless it thinks it needs to and if you're no longer sending that muscle building signal even if you're recovering your body has no need to have you be bigger and stronger remember that costs more energy costs more calories I like that you went this direction there's a myth that I I fell for for so many years and I I know I taught a lot of people the wrong way because I was always under this impression of chasing this soreness I always looked at the process of building muscle look like this you go into the gym and I just even say this like oh you know you don't build muscle outside the gym you what you do I mean you don't build muscle inside the gym you go inside the gym you tear and break down and then when you go home you rest and you recover and that's when you grow and you build muscle and there's some truth to that but that was that was my truth and I didn't take into consideration the process of adaptation and how important that signal was to the whole process process of continuing to grow and so I was completely focused on always trying to break down as much as I could and then trying to feed the body as much as I could to grow and that's where this myth has been perpetuated from is this idea of we tear as much as we can we destroy as much we can the gym and then we go home and we rest as well as we can and we feed as much as we can and that's going to optimize the most amount of diminishing returns at that point like you you're playing catch-up you know to to being sore and it's only one metric you know regarding recovery anyway so like to to negate the fact that you could be training more efficiently and you know manipulate your intensity and you know have have more energy going into your next workout I mean that's that's like you know dinosaur it's so funny there were so many there were signals and signs of that recovering adaptation were separate so many times throughout my my fitness career I don't really put it together till much later but I remember one instance in particular I when I used to go to the gym so you know I've been working out in gyms since I was 14 15 years old and when I was about 16 and 17 I was really really really into it I was dedicated I want to build muscle and I bought into this theory or dogma that it was recovery you need to recover to build muscle that was what it was all about and that I didn't understand anything about adaptation I thought it was the healing process so I'll never forget I used to go to the gym and I'd hammer the shit out of myself I mean I do every high intensity technique you could imagine that I could read about in magazines everything from partial reps to supersets and four straps and all this crazy stuff and then what I would do is if I wasn't lifting weights I was not moving like purposely I'd be like I need to recover I don't want to compromise my recovery with any other activity and I'll never forget I got a I got myself a BMX bike and had me and my cousin my cousin got a BMX bike and he's like dude let's go right up in the hills it'll be super fun and so I said sure I'll get one too and I'll never forget this I don't remember what Dale was but I had worked out my biceps really really hard and they were source fuck and so I thought to myself like I'm going to rest my arms so that they they grow but then my cousin's like dude let's go hang out let's go you know ride our bikes and right up in the hills this and that so the day after and the next few days after we rode our BMX bikes up in the hills and at this time I was really practicing my bunny hops and trying to do all these moves which required me to jerk up on my bar really hard with my arms and I remember after each day because we would do this for hours we'd be out for three four hours I remember coming home and I'd be like kind of crapped out like fuck man I've been pulling up on that on that handle bar this whole time like I totally wasted that workout because my biceps are never going to be able to recover and I used to be religious about measuring my arms when I was doing that with the bike and lifting weights my arms grew like I was like a quarter inch or something like overnight I remember thinking like there's no way it could be the bike you had to be something else because there's no way I'm you know compromising my recovery but that was just the sign to show me that and I didn't understand it then that you can send these muscle building adaptation signals even while you are recovering and in fact now that we've we've what we have learned is movement actually facilitates recovery so if you're in the state where you're having a tough time recovering and you're pushing your body to the limit sometimes you do need rest but sometimes what you need is just some movement just do some movement that's why we do trigger sessions and maps anabolic like do mobility work whatever you'll actually get more muscle out of it get better results out of it and you may find yourself actually recovering faster as a result next question is from beach cruiser 83 myth or fact that testosterone is stored in the legs and that a person doing squats and deadlifts will have more testosterone and gains and someone who I love this was you wanted this question I wanted this question salva did not want this question but I said we have to talk about this because that I've heard for a very long time and people used to say this over and this is kind of the telephone right where a little bit of truth or information gets shared by somebody and then they get distorted over time and now it's to the point where people think the testosterone is stored in your legs so it is kind of funny but I do know where this has come from and I also think this is grossly overplayed and sold about squats and deadlifts and that's that we get this spike and growth hormone now this but it's so minimal and it's not going to be enough of growth hormone factor that all sudden you grow way significant the bottom line is that when we squat and when we deadlift it is the best compound movements that we can possibly do because it incorporates the entire body and so the overall gain of building muscle is going to be significant in comparison to any other exercise so if you eliminate squatting and deadlifting you're eliminating to the biggest muscle building exercises that you could possibly do that is the biggest factor it's not that oh when you do squats which you will hear this I've read articles in t-nation I've seen guys do stuff on this before where they talk about the growth hormone factor that gets spikes the testosterone it does it does spike it but it's so insignificant that that's not what makes squatting and deadlifting so beneficial what makes it so beneficial are all the other factors of having to complete that movement so there's there's a couple things on this that I want to touch on first and foremost exercise resistance training in general does raise or does cause spikes in these you know you want to call anabolic hormones growth hormone and testosterone and some exercises cause a bigger spike than other exercises for example like we're talking about you go do a barbell squat you're going to get a bigger spike in growth hormone and test the other leg extension or barbell curl now is that spike building muscle or more muscle for you insignificant amount at if at all maybe over the course of 30 years am I add up to you know a pound of muscle I think what it's doing is it's showing you that the exercise you're doing is producing this what I consider systemic muscle building signal and that's and the result of that is a spike in testosterone growth hormone so what I mean by that is when you lift weights and this is this is true they've done studies on this here you go with this when you lift weights you have a localized muscle building effect which is obvious that's the target muscle so if I do a curl obviously the muscle that I'm mainly sending the muscle building signal to is the bicep but there is a systemic muscle building effect that happens throughout the whole body and all exercises are not equal some exercises cause a more a larger systemic effect and it's probably tied to the amount of muscles that are being active but there's other factors the amount of tension and the amount of weight that you're using and whether it's a barbell versus CNS activation is contributing all that stuff so I think and the reason I know where this is coming from it's because they've they've you've heard this before if you do heavy squats your arms will grow faster right you know if you do heavy deadlifts your you know your shoulders will grow faster that's true and that's true even though you're not directly cause look let's be honest like when I'm doing a squat I'm not really hitting my biceps you know maybe because I'm holding the bar and I'm tense and all that stuff but if I mimic that tension you know on my bicep with something else it wouldn't produce the same muscle building effect and it's because these big movements cause not only a local muscle building effect for the target muscles which the prime movers in a barbell squat for example the quads hamstrings the glutes and you're getting some low back involvement as well but there's also this larger systemic muscle building effect which then carries over to the rest of the body so now what you notice is you know I'd never I neglected my legs for you know you'll have you'll hear people saying this I never hit my legs I neglect my legs all the time all of a sudden now that I'm hitting my legs all of a sudden my bench presses going up yeah my overhead presses going up and everything else seems to be hence why we switched over to total body workouts and not splits thank you yeah thank you so that is a great point because one of the main reasons why we advocate for full body type workouts is the frequency right training more frequently but it's also this other thing that we won't do we haven't really talked much about which is this systemic muscle building effect and when you work the whole body you're probably giving your body you're probably causing more of this overall muscle building effect in the well certainly you are and go going to Justin's point probably arguably the most beneficial thing is the CNS benefits that you get which ultimately in turn will help you build more muscle everywhere somebody who does a squat is and you've gave the analogy so which I love the analogy of think of your CNS like your amplifier think of your muscles as your speakers and think of you doing a squat versus a leg extension is the difference of you trying to tweak your speakers versus you trying to tweak or fine tune or upgrade your amplifier right so you squatting is investing in getting a better amplifier you doing leg extensions is like you getting better speakers which one of them is going to create better sound overall that's right 100% the amplifier is going to anybody who knows sound knows that right that understands that you're going to get way more from a better amplifier than you than you ever can out of just upgrading your speaker so so yeah it's a myth testosterone is not stored in the legs it's created by your testies in your brain and hitting your legs doesn't release more testosterone from your legs it just when you do these big exercises you cause a systemic muscle building effect next up is the lesniak Vera what is your opinion on clean meat meat that has grown in a lab from animal cells will you eat it when it's available fuck we're run fuck no bro what when are we gonna learn a lesson never do what I I don't care how good it tastes looks that just I mean if we were if we had to like we're gonna die like the apocalypse was coming and shit and like I won't even eat a toe furky what's a toe furky it's like a tofu I'm not gonna eat that shit it's a real thing yeah come on bro you go always you got to go on the vegan processed food like freezer section when they're trying to make like hot dogs shit out of like I look at the back of those boxes and it's like 50 million ingredients and it's supposed to be healthy this scary imagine at like the cafeteria like you want this mystery meat you know the scary part is if we really think about it and I'm sure that's why she asked this question total artificial meat tastes like the best bite of filet mignon you've ever had in your life well so they that's what there's the argument right there is like so like if you didn't tell me right side by side test and you cut something that was engineered to for the perfect flavor profile as that medium perfectly cuts or cut meat or cooked meat of filet mignon is not alive you don't know that oh it's living cells they'll say it's living cells well I don't know man like living alive and then you know like I there's got to be a disconnect so there's a lot of there's a lot of like positive marketing that you can do with this like number one we're saving we're not killing animals yeah and that's number one number two the main number two we're saving the environment right because we're growing in a lab number three it's cheaper number four it takes up less space and it's less of a carbon footprint and all these other things the problem is if we were all of the things that we understand about the universe all the complex things that we know the most complex thing that we by far still don't know a lot about is the brain the second most complex thing that we think we know a lot about but in reality we actually is a lot we don't know about is metabolism in particular mammalian metabolism in fact all animals and plants the way they convert food into energy is a lot about it but there's a lot we don't know there's a lot we don't know about human metabolism so and we pretend like we do and so when scientists are like oh these are stem cells we're going to grow these into meat you're going to eat these it's no different right you are that is a level of shit they say that before bullshit experimenting you know and having like these these labs done ahead of time to claim that bro that is a that is a level of cockiness that has gotten mankind into trouble for we got it feed it to the vegans feed it to the vegans let me know in 20 years that's no it's you know I wouldn't do it look I I will say this I'm not anti-science by the way but there is definitely this you know scientific worship that we start to get into especially modern times and modern Western societies where it's all about science that we we trust a hundred percent we don't question anything and yeah there you know the thing is they don't know what they don't know and when it comes to human metabolism again look I'll tell you I'll tell you something right now 15 years ago 10 years ago 10 years ago you know scientists in that that study human metabolism and all that stuff and biology had very little knowledge on the microbiome of the gut that's 10 years ago nobody was talking about this shit 10 years ago except for people like Paul check or whatever but even they didn't know the science behind it all of a sudden now we're learning that it's really important not only is it really important but it's so important that without it you're going to die oh it influences your moods it influences your newer transmitter production it oh you can pass it on to other people and you're and we can do gut trans you know fecal transplants with animals and change their behavior and and that's just now now you go back to the iceberg 10 years 10 15 years ago they would have totally they know everything about food they know what you know vitamins minerals nutrients proteins fats carbohydrates you can't tell me that we're going to grow meat today with what we know about metabolism today that is going to be exactly the same as meat or maybe it is exactly the same based on the parameters that we know to look at like we know to look at protein fat carbs nutrients and so now we can say oh yeah they're identical but that's because we don't know to look at these other things that we may discover later on I do think at some point science will get to the point where we can create and make our own food and it'll be absolutely perfect behind obviously for sure there's so many questions when it comes to nutrition and food that we're still learning fuck I mean our show wouldn't exist if we knew everything about it I mean we we constantly are bringing new things to light in terms of how nutrition affects the body and what food does to the body and all these weird things that we're starting to learn you know now no man I'd stay away from lab meat it's it's funny to franken meat they so what they they actually did they actually grew steak in a lab and that's not commercial is well two reason number one tastes like shit so they actually gave it to the scientists to try and all of them were like this is gross I would never it didn't taste like beef or whatever even though they grew it from the stem cells it didn't taste the same was gross and number two I think it cost them something like seven thousand dollars to grow one steak yeah because the technology just super efficient yeah so it's so rudimentary you know compared to where it could be in the future but that's here that's let's just feed everybody crickets yeah it's like at least it's good for the environment well I would I would eat I would eat that before I ate that for sure that's what I'm saying yeah now I would hundred percent eat some process bugs before I would eat some fake fake ass meat I'm serious and I'm like was not pro the fucking cricket chips you guys were eating but if it was like one or the other for sure I'm eating cricket chips over fake ass meat well look here's what you're here's what scientists are competing against scientists you look at modern biology modern science and how they're really studying the body and starting to understand it's not that long it's not that old what what is it like less than a hundred years maybe or hundred years of you know germ theory what hasn't been that lot that around that long even you know I mean where we've discovered all these different things so we're contending what science is you know on these things is maybe a hundred years old and the last you know 20 or 30 years as it really started to learn a few things our environment and we co evolved with our food in other words we evolved to be able to consume certain things our food evolved to be able to be consumed and all these other things start to happen where you know we're competing with millions of years and we think you know our hundred years of knowledge it's just arrogant we're so arrogant that we're like oh yeah we figured out nutrition here's some you know I went to what gym was it that we were at city sport when we walked in and we were talking to the guy yeah and I look in their case of like protein powders and stuff and know what they had in there all right Soylent oh they did they're selling in the gym now that's not good Soylent the fucking drink this and never eat food and you'll be absolutely fine which I would never be a city sport never dropped points in my right they were up there I was like you know it was right next to the rip force yeah dude I can't believe that you guys are down there with planet fitness now come on guys just like that get your shit together eat real meat you got to kill it first it's got to be alive first it's a process so check this out if you go to YouTube we have a free like 30-day workout all mapped out all planned out for you doesn't cost you anything just go to Mind Pump TV on YouTube subscribe to our channel set your notifications to on so you can see whenever we post the new don't forget about the new app bro oh my it's here you guys been asking great googly moogly for years 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