This regular September 5th meeting of the DRB to order and welcome everybody for just as you know waiting for Sharon, she's got some technical difficulties, but we'll get going with Meredith's review of the remote meeting procedures. Yes. All right. All right, let me get to my screen share. Give me a second. I'm working on some. The screen to share in awesome. All right, so for anybody who hasn't done this before the screen share is more for people who are viewing this meeting over or media because it is being live streamed over their channel. So for anyone who is watching tonight's meeting over or media, you can participate in tonight's development review board meeting via the zoom platform. You can do this using both using video option over your computer or smartphone by typing this link here into your web browser. And I will get a little notification that you want to get into the meeting and I will let you in. And with that, you'll be able to see everything on your screen, as well as raise your hand and get called on and ask questions. Alternatively, you can dial in this phone number and when prompted put in this meeting ID. And again, I'll I'll get a little notification that you want to come into the meeting and I'll let you in. And with that one, you don't get the video option, but you still will be able to hear everything and talk to us. If you are trying to access the meeting and having problems, please email me at mcrandle at montpillier hyphen vt.org. For those who are attending via zoom, zoom know that turning your video on is optional. Please for everyone attending keep your microphone on mute when you're not speaking this will help reduce background noise. So the zoom chat function should only be used for troubleshooting our logistics questions. If you have a question or comment about an actual agenda item, please raise your hand, either physically or by using the raise hand button on your toolbar, and then wait for the chair to call on you. If you are called on, please state your name. In the event the public is unable to access this meeting, it will be continued to a time and place a certain I would get notification of that via my email. And especially because the online access to remote access is the only way to access this meeting. If they're members of the public who can't get in we have to make sure that we continue to the meeting so that they have an opportunity to submit their comments. I will now hand the meeting back over to the chair. You have a perfect seven voting members on this evening unless someone sees anyone else on here. We actually have eight. Yep, we have eight because Jean's on as well. So we just have to make sure we know so. Unless somebody has a reason to recuse themselves from the application, Jean would be on to participate but would not be voting when it comes to the actual application. Okay. Okay, with members of the board for establishing that regular members of meeting and genius listening in as an alternate. Great. Sounds like everybody's on board. Sounds good. Kevin just for smoothness here we'll still accept that motion. We had another plan but that makes it easier. Yeah, well withdraw. Now we still accept that motion. It'll make it smoother. Okay, that's fine. That's fine. That's fine. That's fine. That's fine. That's fine. That's fine. That's fine. That'll have to be on the, on the record, I think, because I don't think that was on the, that was before we actually started. Motion to move the elections to the end of this evening's meeting. That second that motion. Okay. Motion by. Rob, I guess. Second by Sharon. Okay. Alex, Kevin, Catherine. Karen, Michael, how do you vote? Yes. Joe. Hi. Hey. We have. Kind of the approved agenda moving the elections to the end of this meeting. So new officers. Now we'll take effect at the next regular meeting of the, of the DRB. Great. So on to comments from the chair. So, yeah, just. Too many comments. I will not be at the next meeting of the DRV. I'll be out of the country. And so. That's my announcement. I don't know if there's any other news. Thank you. I think we'll, you know, acknowledge that the regular annual elections of the DRV, you know, we're supposed to happen in August. We did not do that. We did not have that second meeting in August. And so those elections will be, you know, this evening we moved into the end to so to ensure a smooth transition of, you know, handoff. The new officers will take in effect at the next regular meeting of the DRB. being said. Does that have any questions on that? All right, great. We'll move to the 190 River Street application and who is here to present on that application? My name is Chris Austin. I work with Grenier Engineering and we're the consultant for Barrett Enterprises and I have Kelly Barrett here with Barrett Enterprises. And if I can just introduce myself as well. I'm Brooke Dingledine with Velson, Jackamo, Detora, and McQuestin and I'm counseled assisting Mr. Barrett as well. Wonderful. So, Mr. Austin and Mr. Barrett, anyone else plan on speaking on this application? We will acknowledge that it's been tradition we do not swear counsel in for testimony. Is that correct, Brooke? That would be appropriate. I won't be testifying as facts. I may just be assisting by providing a legal argument or to clarify some issues from the zoning ordinance if there are any questions. All right, thank you. So, anyone other than Chris and Kelly to be sworn in and speaking on this application? No, okay. So, Chris and Kelly, raise your right hand and swear you in as a witness. So, those interested in providing testimony on this application, would you please raise your right hand if you're sworn in as a witness? Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth under the pains and penalties of perjury? You redo. Wonderful. All right, so I guess Meredith can give a brief summary here. I'm sure we'll be back to ask questions about specific sections of the regs here. So, you don't need to go in too much detail, but I will let you go ahead. Awesome. Yeah, now I'll keep this really brief. You know, this application is before the board in large part because it is requesting for new buildings that are going to contain a conditional use, the mini storage units. It's also major site plan, because both of the buildings being constructed, each of them are more than 2000 square feet. So, that triggers major site plan review, which only the board can do. In my staff report and in the public hearing notice, we had also put in, it was requesting a waiver of the 10, sorry, a 10 foot waiver of the rear setback, as was pointed out to be today. And none of us had caught this until Brooke brought it up or somebody brought it to Brooke and Brooke called me. In the last regulation change, the Eastern Gateway had a new type of setback created for it, and none of the other zoning rigs, none of the other zoning districts have, which is a railroad setback of five feet. So, and even though I copied and pasted it and stuck it in the staff report, just didn't even see it. So, there actually isn't a need for a rear setback waiver. That doesn't have to be dealt with. Because we're talking major site plan, because we're talking to conditional use, there's still a little bit of a discussion about whether the setback distance that is shown on that site plan between the property line, which is really close to the railroad, and maybe the edge of that rear drive access space, that one-way drive, provides enough room for snow. Make sure the building and the road together don't get so close to that rear area that there's not enough room for snow when the plows go through. But the design as shown doesn't seem to be that issue.  And then two other notes, and I put this in the email that went out and the packet on the website is updated, but a reminder that we do have a comment from the public that is not reflected in the staff report and that the applicants provided a updated impervious cover document that is not reflected in the staff report. So they provided more detail on how the coverage limit is met. And so that's a situation where the site as a whole is still over that 50% coverage max, but they're actually reducing the existing impervious cover. So they're making a existing nonconformity better with the new plan. There you go. That's just what I've got. Questions? Well, I acknowledge I did receive that comment. That comment was from Reuben Sherman, and also did get sent to every member of the board for meetings. I don't feel I need to read it, but just highlighting that it's there, and everyone has it to guide their questions to that this evening. Awesome. Thanks, Rob. So Chris and Kelly, feel free to take the reins here and tell us a little bit about your project. Yeah, so we have kind of just, I think, probably everyone's sort of aware where this is, but 190 River Street is the old trading post building right along River Street being Route 2, and the aforementioned railroad that bisects this property. Barrett's actually owned two parcels here. To be clear, we are dealing with the southern parcel adjacent to River Street. They have a second parcel with other buildings and across the railroad tracks. The railroad is an owned strip, so there are two pieces of land. We're only involved on the southern portion here. The site consists of a paved driveway off River Street with the trading post on the east, the railroad tracks to the north, and an existing gravel parking lot to the west of that access drive. Within that existing gravel parking lot is where we've proposed the two mini self-storage warehouse buildings. We're building one along the frontage of River Street. That'll be a single load. In other words, there'll be no unit doors on the street side. You would only have unit doors on the interior there. Building one is 3,400 square feet, as shown there. Building two is 2,600 square feet. That'll have units on both sides there, which as you can see from the site plan, we have planned vehicle circulation to be able to circle building two completely. There's plenty of room with 27 feet between the buildings to maneuver in between the buildings, turn in and out as needed. Quite a bit of turning movement in there. As Meredith said, as part of this, we prepared an impervious cover exhibit that shows that we are slightly decreasing the amount of impervious on the site. This is mainly due to the fact that we're carving out a corner of that old parking lot to put in the storm water management system in the northwest corner of that gravel lot. Essentially, there's a slight net loss of impervious. The buildings will be placed on mainly what is already gravel parking. So we have site circulation there. We have access to the buildings at 27 and 15 feet wide in the two drive lanes. The buildings are detailed on that site plan with a end elevation and a side elevation. Nice cupola plan there. We're looking for a clobboard sided look. Kind of gray colors, red doors, kind of a standard storage building look there. The buildings only, I think, 13 or so feet tall. They're pretty low impact structures, 20 feet wide. The package also includes a landscaping plan prepared by Knopf Landscaping, a licensed landscape architect. We provide quite a bit of new plantings along the building side there to provide adequate screening. What other highlights here? We have an all new lighting plan for the buildings that meets the lumen regulations. We have a photometric plan there that shows that light is not cast really off the site. They are downcast and fully shielded fixtures that are going to be within the eaves of the buildings. So this will achieve site security and light for any users at night. It's a really low light scenario with the full shielding of the eaves. Soft light fixtures are chosen. There is an existing site light provided by Green Mountain Power on a utility pole there that, based on neighbor comments and thought process of our new lighting plan, we would just offer up to remove that larger security light once the buildings are constructed. There wouldn't be much need for the additional security light once the buildings are lit in there. So essentially between the landscaping, the stormwater improvements, and the lighting improvements, we feel this project really improves the area and provides needed storage space for renters right in Montpelier. You know a lot of apartment space in town. The Barrett's are very well versed with how storage goes. This seems to be a needed product that we don't have any fear of filling the building with tenants. Right, Kelly? No problem. So as a big overview, I think that's kind of the snapshot. Well, I guess the other one to highlight thing we want to touch on is we have planned for snow storage removal. It was mentioned by Meredith and the staff report. We can point that out on the site plan, but we have planned for it to be in the southwest corner, the southeast corner, along not over the line into the railroad, but along the railroad land behind our curb. We've created space there for snow storage, and they have ample storage across the driveway over and behind the trading post, if as needed. So we have a pretty good strategy there for keeping snow clear out of the units. I just want a couple questions, just since I've got your impervious sketch up here. As far as your stormwater practices and what you're proposing, that's only for the stuff that's on this portion of the parcel that's being developed, not proposing anything on the rest of the parcel. We are not. That's correct. This would be to manage the stormwater created by the redevelopment of the buildings within the gravel wall that triggers the need for a state stormwater permit. I mean, as engineers, we would design some kind of drainage plan in any case, but yeah, we're required by the state to have a stormwater management system due to redevelopment of that gravel wall with the buildings. So I had a question about the existing development as it is today. Are any of the buildings existing buildings impacted? Are they, you know, either through modification or tear it out? No, no, there's no proposed change to any other buildings. And the only building on this parcel is the trading post. The other buildings across the railroad are separate item, but yeah, no, no removals proposed. Okay. Okay. Yes, we can get into the staff report. Any highlights, Meredith, you caught by their proposal or? Yeah, I mean, it's the board needs to, I mean, it's sort of summarized there at the end of the staff report, the key items that the board needs to deal with. You know, there's determinations that I'm just not allowed to make because I'm the zoning administrator. So that's the conditional use. There's a couple of questions in here about, I mean, we can skip the setback stuff. So that's great. You know, there were some questions about just whether or not certain certain landscaping items are met. But it's, I think you're going to have to go through the staff report. There's not because there's a lot of, there's a lot of individual little items that the board has to make clear determinations on or at least make sure they have enough information to make those determinations. I just, I guess the, I was a little confused on the, the mixed use required, many, many warehouse versus light manufacturing and expand upon a little bit, not light manufacturing, sorry. The requirement that the warehouse is on is that it's a combined mixed use. Yeah. The thing is that only came up that was only really an issue when you get to the rear setback waiver and about whether or not the waiver is necessary for the continued use of the parcel and you don't have to worry about that anymore because it doesn't need that waiver because it meets the railroad setback waiver. So you can just, you can just skip that whole section of red on page five and four. Four and five, yeah. All right. So that brings us to staff report review to start on the bottom of page five because you're still looking at the side yard setback. Is that correct? No, no, that's all weird. That's all the rear setback. So again, yeah, skip over, skip over five, skip over six. Actually, sorry. Six is where you have the coverage, right? So we didn't have that coverage information as long as the board is happy with the reduced coverage amount, right? It still doesn't meet the 50% standard or whatever. What's the standard? Yeah, 50%. It's still going to cover more than 50% of the parcel within previous, but it's going to be less than it is now. So as long as the board is okay with that, that that's the only outstanding dimensional issue. So that seems good. It seems like an improvement. And we could just roll with that. Would be my take. I would, I would tend to agree. I think my one last question on that is about just the, the direction of the water flow. So like currently, just currently basically all water on the site flow to that catch basin in the corner where you're proposing to send almost all of it or is it sort of sheet flow off in some spaces? I think it's a combination there of sheet flow. But yeah, as part of the site design here, it's pretty flat site. So you don't see a lot of contour lines, but we have directional arrows with high points, elevations listed in drainage. So we are slightly grading the site. You know, there isn't a lot of fill coming in, but we're grading the site to make water move to where we needed to move to our retention area. And if you look at that, we have it split because it's hard to sheet flow all of it in, you know, one place. So we actually wrap it around a swale on the north side that hits the curb that we've installed, proposed to install. Water will ride that curb and be graded to get into the stormwater area. And in the center aisle, you see there, we have a majority of it draining straight to it. So that'll be graded parking lot, you know, minor grading, you're in a parking lot, but it'll be shimmed to drain to that stormwater catchment area. I might ask a question relative to stormwater. How did the existing site perform during the July floods? Did you see any flooding, Kelly? There was no flooding anywhere. Okay. On any of the property? Well, so it was sheeting some water fairly efficiently. I mean, you might have had a small ponding in there when it was a serene or not even. There wasn't, there was no major infringement then or? The only, the only place, Kevin, where there was a problem was the culvert over by Vivian's house had overflowed and ran the road towards our entrance and towards the car wash. But it just flowed right down the driveway. It flowed right, so it didn't. Yeah, I didn't notice any major, I didn't notice any change from the post event. So I just wanted to check that with you. Yeah, we lucked out. There was. Okay. So yeah, I think the rationale about the impervious exhibit and the stormwater practices here seems to be reasonable. Board members have any other questions on that? And just, you know, because the next part of that is that I guess, you know, you will get a state stormwater permit, I guess, and then public works will do their final review of this unless they've already completed that. I believe they said they had no comments. I don't know if they do a further review, Meredith, but yeah, okay. No, no, I mean, it's because you're not tapping into the city's system, they're not going to really have anything about the stormwater. But we are required to get a state stormwater discharge permit. So we will be doing once we receive, you know, this approval. Yeah. And then I mean, once you get that, you can always just send it to us and we'll send it and put it into our files with the permit file just so it's easy for people to find it. Although those files are going to end up being electronic. We're not going to be keeping lots of paper files anymore. Yep, those are all by the state rules are required to be recorded in the land records as well. But yeah, we'll forward a copy. Yeah. Okay. Sounds good. So we're moving moving down to, I guess we're on page eight, access and circulation, you know, at the site. I think that, you know, we can use some judgment here, but it'd be worth, I guess, having a little bit of discussion about the parking. You had mentioned in your testimony about the turning radius is in the width of the past and whatnot. And that all seems to make sense. I think the board does have a, you know, sort of a decision make to whether the proposed use that requires parking or not. And I think that staff made a pretty good comment about more of a loading for these units is what the requirement is and not parking any cars for extended period of time. Yeah, I think that's correctly stated in that staff comment. Basically, the Barrett's wouldn't allow any long term parking because that would just come up works. So there is no real long term parking required for the use. It is area outside your unit just needs to be provided access to get your door open, you park there for the amount of time, your stuff and you leave. So it is more of a load unload zone. And the Barrett's have many of these sites in central Vermont. My company's actually done the engineering and permitting on quite a number of them as well. He's retired now with the former principal of my firm, Bill, a bunch of these sites here in Waterbury, Middlesex at the Barrett's now owned. So we've quite a bit of experience on these site layouts and not causing problems and getting people in and out efficiently. A lot of these facilities have a 22 to 24 foot double driveline in between. So we feel like we've squeezed out a few extra feet on this one at 27 in between the eaves. And that's for where you have access to build the units on each side. And then our driveline on the north side along the railroad side, we're only accessing one side of that building. That's a 15 foot wide lane there to the eve, which is plenty sufficient to fit a car in, a car can go by. People have their U-Haul trucks that they rent, they drive up next to their unit and there's always room to drive by them. I have what 30 or 40 of these units right here at my office property. I've been here 25 years, I've never seen a person argue about not being able to get their unit or being blocked off or there's a traffic problem. So we're highly confident in the site circulation design here based on experience and just those kind of measurements fit vehicles very efficiently. Okay, are these units when it's most permitted to store cars there if they wanted to? Is that any of them big enough for that or is that not something that happens? Yeah, I believe that is possible. Yep. My unit's often basically planned out a 10-feet wide, which is wide enough for any vehicles. And building one, for instance, will have a 20-foot depth because that's a single load building. So I mean vehicle storage could take place. Okay, and except we already talked about the snow storage here, it seems like you've got a plan to have it in a couple different places. I'm guessing you could update your site plan to just have that called out exactly where it is for the final file submittal. Yeah, I don't see any other other topics there.  Can we just pull that up real quick and just take a look at what's proposed? Yeah, I can do it. Let me just scroll the right one that when I pop it up. I'm not making everybody dizzy. Well, I think you'll see there in that packet, there's a site plan layout with a legend and a key and it states sizing, the time of planning, etc. And then there's also a photo image of, you know, depicting what these proposed plans look like at maturity anyway. Yep, so this is the, oh goodness, hard to read the little one and still be able to show everybody the pictures. But this is your biggest tree. What is that, the maple? That's one oak, yep, sorry, one, the swamp white oak. And then you've got the smaller medium, the medium trees here, then filled in with some arborbite, I think, was these. Correct. So it's a mix of deciduous and evergreen to create, you know, a seed year-round screen there. Those are all salt tolerant as well, since we're near the highway and such that always needs to be planned. And then there's the section of a shrubbery planting there. The hatch marked area. Yeah. So essentially from the street view, we'll have nice flowering and colorful shrubbery. Then you'll have the street trees behind it that then screen that first building and keep in mind that first building doesn't have any loading or doors on the street side. So essentially the first building also helps screen, along with the landscaping, activities going on, you know, at people's units within the site. Looks like a suitable landscaping plan to me. There's a note here about, probably due to the age of it, but you know, some, there's maybe some non-conformity on the existing, you know, parcel, but that doesn't have a concern to me. I think that looks like you've gone above and beyond here as far as creating some good screening. I think that looks good. So moving on down is outdoor lighting. In your presentation, you mentioned willingness to remove that green-mounted power light that appeared to be what one of the neighbor's comment was concerned about other than that. I think I saw some like cut sheets in here and whatnot. Thank you for that. We usually ask for you to provide that later. Yeah, I've been asked to follow up with that so many times. I try really hard to bring it the first time now. Doesn't always work out depending on where we're at on the design, but yeah, we try to get that right in. For this one, it was pretty simple being a can light also. But yeah, so as stated in the original presentation, the security light that's there now has served the bear as well. It's kept things safe and lit. But you know, once the buildings are in and they have their own lighting, there isn't much need for the security light anymore. So they don't have any issue in just removing it. And I believe that would bring the site into full compliance on lighting, including the existing. Yeah. Yes, madam. Just as I'm keeping track of things here for at the end, is that removal of that existing security light something that the board wants to have as a condition of approval? Or is it just something that the applicant is attesting to and a finding a fact? I mean, if the applicant is already stating that he would remove that without a problem, why not make it a condition? I agree with that. That would keep the neighbor happy. And then there's documentation. Great. Just making sure so that we can all make sure we're pallied up at the end when we get to the motion. Thank you. Meredith, if I could just suggest that if the condition can indicate the removal post construction so that the new lighting, pardon me, the new lighting is there and operating before the removal. Yeah, exactly. Terrific. So I had notes here on most of the rest of this about sort of like character of the neighborhood type analysis that we're doing. And I think a number of photos were provided of the other, you know, types of buildings and shape of buildings on this particular part. And it seems pretty consistent to me. I guess I would flag something to the board members. This is, I guess, seems like it's a rarity an application that did not go through the design review committee, right, Meredith? But we haven't had a lot of new buildings over the last five years. And we definitely haven't had a lot of major site plan. So this is what one of maybe two major site plan that have come to the board that haven't been in the design review overlay district. So this and then on the same further down River Street, the new building that they put in the other roundabout were two of the ones that stick out in my head. It seems like what they're proposing for buildings looks very much like what is in the neighborhoods there. And the screening also seems like it's going to be a definite boom to the area. And it's not in a design review catchment area, is it right? Yeah. And I guess we have another point here about utilities on the site and other city services. And how much power did these units have? Probably not much. Yeah, there's almost, there's just power to light the LED lights, which are incredibly efficient light fixtures. I mean, there's a number of them. So there's a load here, but it's like less than the standard house for sure. It's probably a hundred amp service. And imagine I'm not an electrician, but it's a very small service because the only powers for the light. So traditionally on these kind of buildings, we usually just see no essentially a wire coming to it. Like there's barely a breaker box, right Kelly? Yeah, that's just a one dad wire. Yeah, of course, underground. Yeah, an underground wire comes up to the building in a conduit. Usually there's a little plastic conduit panel at the corner of a building. There's no big, you know, electrical panel with breakers because there's nothing but the one service really. Yeah. How much water, is there water service on the property at all? Or is it just a couple spickets? You have over at the training post, you must have this bathroom or anything. We got water at the training post. There's a fire hydrant right there. Yeah, there's a hydrant on site, correct? Yeah. So yeah, we got water. Pretty well. It's not like books would come in and plug the pressure washer in and pressure washer car and the drawer or anything like that. Oh, yeah. No, no, there's no hose available to the public. No, certainly not. Okay. Yeah, actually, would there even be an outlet for somebody to use? You don't provide those. You know, no, yeah, there won't even be outlets for people to use. So it'd be pretty limited area where people could perform that kind of maintenance, I would say, because they will have services to do so. Moving right along here. So I've scrolled down to page 23 of the staff report here and there's a we're supposed to advise on whether the impacts of the use will be consistent with the neighborhood. And I think we can very much determine, yes, this is consistent with the neighborhood. My ultimate question was if someone could come in and rent one of these units and do something that would be not necessarily just like the storage unit use, but it sounds like without any water or really power access, pretty limited on what they could or could not do. And so that was my only concern, but it seems to be not a concern anymore. Yeah, I would say with limited ability to plug stuff in, yeah, it'd be hard for people to do too many things, but store their stuff. I would agree with that. Yeah, well, like I have seen facilities that provide a heated unit power and other things, and there tends to be some, you know, more activity at those. But that isn't the case here. Okay, I think we're down to the final sort of like summary here of our key points. What or the final numbers on the proposed coverage in lot area just so we can get those sure. It's a 1.7 acre lot, you know, plus or minus, based on tax records, essentially. It's a 1.18 acres of existing impervious, removing 0.054. There's a slight amount of new going back in on the other side of 0.018. So the total is 1.15 acres, which is, you know, less than the existing as previously stated. I'm just going to do a quick screen share so that everybody can see where that chart is. So this is on that impervious exhibit here.  And so you get to a reduced impervious surface. They're reducing it by over 1,500 square feet of impervious is actually being removed and instead will be either planted area or the stormwater retention pond, which we count as pervious because it is retention. It's a place for the water to be retained. And there's some evaporation, but also just some slow percolation, I think. Is that correct, Chris? It is. Yep. I'm anticipating some amount of plant life in there soaking up water, too. That's part of these. Oh, right. But not necessarily. But yeah, either way, you're correct. Yep. So we count that as a pervious area. And just for the image, to this dotted area, here is all the existing impervious. And so here is where they're adding, taking away the impervious surface. And then here is a little bit of new addition. But then they'll also be adding so many more trees here that are going to soak up additional water, too. It doesn't count towards your coverage situation, but it's definitely going to help for the stormwater. Any stormwater that had been flowing this way and running into the road from here is going to be sucked up a lot more once those trees are mature. Also, I have a treatment practice that doesn't exist on site and being proposed, but I think it's one part here. So yeah, so as far as stepbacks go, we're avoiding that due to discovery of another section of the regs. And as far as parking goes, I think we discussed that. Don't see any issues for needs for anything other than really loading on loading zones. Seems like there's a willingness for us to condition to have the whole light removed after construction is complete. And as far as the ability to satisfy design and compatibility requirements, we talked some about the neighborhood. I know these buildings are short, no building height issues here. And then as far as conditional use goes, I think we've satisfied that. Must board members have any other concerns there? I would make a motion if we might be at that point. Motion is to be welcomed. Motion to grant requests for conditional use in major site plan and plow. Approval for the construction of two mini storage warehouses at 190 River Street as presented in application Z-2023-0097 and supporting supplemental materials with the condition of removing the utility pole light after construction has been completed. Good. I'll second that. Motion by Sharon, second by Kevin for approval of the application with the conditions. And I guess we can, is there any discussion on the motion? Seeing none, we'll move into a roll call vote. Catherine, how do you vote? Yes. Kevin? Yes. Sharon? Yes. Alex? Oh. Yes. Joe? Yes. Michael? Yes. Rob, myself, yes. Motion is unanimously approved. Great. Thank you very much. Thank you. And we'd really appreciate Meredith's guidance. She did just a phenomenal job helping to guide this. So thank you very much for her help. Yes. Very much. Thanks for the compliment. We feel strongly that she represents us quite well. Well, thank you. I will turn around, we will turn around the decision as soon as we can. And the lovely thing is because this is a, the condition on here is after completion, once the decision is signed, we will be able to issue the permit at the same time. So we will be in touch when we have both that signed decision and permit ready and available. Given the state of mail these days and because this would be mailed out to a Montpelier address, I'm going to suggest that I email you when it's ready and have somebody come and pick it up versus us trying to do certified mail if that's okay. Okay, great. So when you come to pick it up, you'll still need to sign a little like receipt so that we have that for the file. But I mean, we actually, I don't even know if we've gotten our certified mail documentation again from the post office because it all got washed away. So, perfect. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you very much for your time. Yeah. Thank you for all your time, folks. Okay, on to the next. So we have minutes to review for the August 7th meeting, which have enough people here to do so. Are there any amendments or questions on the minutes? Did I not see the minutes somewhere? I mean, I'm sure they're fine, but they were in the package. They should be in the packet. Let me make sure it's at the end. It would be, yep. So it's after. Yep. And the electronic one, its page is 54 and 55 of the electronic packet. Okay. Yep. I make a motion to approve the minutes of August 7th. Second. By Sharon, second by Kaepern. Okay. All those in favor approving the minutes. Been here for Kevin. He wasn't here. He wasn't there. Alrighty, perfect. So that moves us to our next order of business that got moved to the end of the meeting, which is the annual elections of chair and vice chair. And I guess I'll say that I am excited of the prospect of playing some musical chairs here. And so I will have, are you willing and able to serve another year term? I would gladly accept the nomination as a, for the vice chair position. The vice chair. And Sharon, how are you feeling about all of this? I'm enjoying it. Sounds like, well, I don't want to preclude all discussion. So I'll just be quiet for a minute. I'll be glad. Would you chair Sharon? Yes, I would.  So wanted to say thank you for all your service and also thank you, Sharon, for your willingness to step forward in a leadership position. I agree with Rob that it's good to mix things up a little bit, but Rob, I'm glad you're not, I hope you're not going anywhere. Because I think the board really benefits from all your knowledge of the regs and your passion for the mission. So I will go ahead, Sharon. I just want to say that, you know, this about one year back on the board from me, and then I just really appreciated working with everybody on the board. And I feel like it's, we've just been really efficient and really thoughtful and really thorough. And I really appreciate Meredith and everybody on the board. I just think it's a good, we're in a good spot. Meredith, can I make a motion to do two positions with one vote? I mean, I think you should probably do it separately. Really, we should do the one and then the other. So that being said, I would, with enthusiasm, nominate Sharon Allen to be the chair of the DRB for the next 11 months. We have a second. I'll do enthusiastic second. And Meredith, can you remind us, I know I'm still claiming to be new two years in, but is it typically a one year term or is there a, yeah, that's a standard. The rules for the DRB are that every year they're supposed to be the chair and the vice chair are re-elected or nominated. You go through re-elections for them. It's supposed to be in August, but with all the craziness, it got just sort of missed. Thanks to the refresher. Yeah. So we have a motion on the table to elect Sharon as the chair of the DRB, effective the next regular meeting. And how does Alex vote? Yes. Catherine? Yes. Joe? Yes. Kevin? Yes. Michael? Yes. Rob, myself votes yes. Yeah. We can have Jean vote too because it's a, I don't think it hurts. Sharon is probably recusing yourself. Yes. You don't have to. Wonderful. Okay. Congratulations, Sharon. I really appreciate stepping up to it and I'll be there for you. I will make another motion to elect Rob Goodwin for the next year as vice chair of the DRB. I'll second. And Sharon, you get to run this one. Or you said effective, you said effective next meeting, didn't you, Rob? Yeah. The only next move is the vice chair of the DRB builds the motion. So maybe we'll do a roll call vote. Michael, how do you vote? Yes. Jean? Yes. Want me to see Alex? Yes. Catherine? Yes. And I vote yes. Kevin? Yes. Is that everybody? I don't have all of them on. Yeah, I think. And Rob, oh thank you, Joe. I'm sorry. Oh, Joe. I'm sorry, Joe. Okay. How do you vote, Joe? I vote yes. Great. That makes it unanimous. And Rob, you accept, right? I absolutely, I just want to thank everyone for bearing with me, especially the folks that stepped up to chair when we had multiple recruit queues and some very big applications. And I think what's really great, I think different from definitely when I joined the board and a couple of years in, we have, I think, a very diverse group of skill people on this board. And it's like one of my reasons why it's easy, I think, that it's important that we don't get in a position where there's no one to step up and carry the torch. And I think that we can all, through Sharon, the leadership responsibilities here, do the city of solid and keep things smooth and hopefully make Meredith's job easier. But I think she's just going to do amazing work regardless. That's true. Yeah. Well, I just want to commend everybody on the board for the hard work you put in. It's not an easy job. And there are times when it is downright very frustrating. But we always seem to pull through. And I particularly want to extend a congratulations to Sharon and to Rob for stepping up to, for another year of rather intense work for the board. All right. Our next regular meeting is on the 18th of this month. Are there any applications? Yes. And of course, my brain just completely fizzled out as to what those are. Give me a second. I'm sorry, did we put... My computer's going weird. It is the 18th, but our pending applications page says 19th. I'll have to fix that. So, yes, we actually have a demolition of a historic structure application coming before the board on the 19th. So that application submitted is available for review on that pending applications page that links in the left hand column when you're on the agendas and meeting minutes page. And it's a barn, demolition of a barn that's listed on the historic register. It's in pretty bad shape. And so the owner of the residential building in front is requesting at this point to just demolish it and create green space. He doesn't have a plan for building something new there right now, but it's right near the property line. Is this right downtown? It's on J Street. Sure. It's not right in the middle of downtown. Okay. Yep. No, this isn't a residential neighborhood. Great. I will not be there the next meeting. I'll be honeymoon in Italy. So... Oh, that's so awesome. What a great place to go. That's a place to enjoy. You just got back from Norway. How do you get away with this? You're in Africa. That's a great room. Where are you going in Italy? Sardinia. We're doing a bike tour. Super cool. But let us know if you see any historic structures. Yes, the historic structures that we could demolish. Well, I think this next meeting will be a good one to work through the existing demolition provision. Again, we do have... The planning department does have in its pocket plans to amend that provision, but the zoning changes got all slowed down because of the flood. And some changes that we had drafted before probably going to get tweaked, potentially, because of all the flooding and new thoughts about where things should be built, as well as how to deal with buildings that may be historic, but may be horrifically damaged at this point. So we've got to be really thoughtful about what we're proposing at this point for those zoning changes. So that's all sort of gone into a slow back burner for a little bit. While we reconsider everything and make sure we don't make any changes that are not well thought through given recent history. Yeah, recent history really kind of showed us that a bunch of things we did never want to know about. Yeah, 500-year floods happening every year. Well, we've got the planning commission is getting ready to pick up that baton again on all of their potential tweaks to the zoning regulations. So I will keep you as informed on that as I can and try to make sure that I let you all know when planning commission is having hearings on those, when there's drafts available so that you can take a look at those. Because if any of you spot things that just don't seem like they could actually be administered, be applied in real life, that'll be important to know. And several of you have different kinds of experience and different perspectives to bring to those kinds of discussions. So please feel free to get involved in those conversations as your individual selves. Well, I'll accept a motion to adjourn for once they cool out there. Some are fine again. All those in favor of adjournment say hi. All right. Hi. Have a good night.


Thank you all very much. Thank you, Jack. When I met with Mr. Gorbachev last November in Geneva, we decided that it would be valuable for our two peoples to have a more open personal relationship with each other. The trip that you are about to embark on is just a sort of exchange that we had in mind. The trip, well, there are many fundamental differences between our two peoples and our countries, I should say, and our political and economic systems, yet being different does not preclude better relations. Expanding the ability of our peoples to communicate with each other and to cooperate together on a personal basis remains a high priority in our dealings with the Soviet Union. Who knows, our two peoples, if we do this, may find out that they have much more in common than their governments do. Each one of you, then, going, is a special ambassador for America.  One of the subjects you will undoubtedly hear about when you visit the Soviet Union is our research of strategic defense, what is popularly being called Star Wars, and I wish I could catch the person that first gave it that name, because it's more about peace than it is about wars. Some of the best minds of the United States are trying to find out, if it's possible, to build a system that protects our country and our friends from a ballistic missile attack. We call it the Strategic Defense Initiative, or SDI, and it was a major topic of discussion when I met with General Secretary Gorbachev in Iceland just a few days ago, where you've perhaps gathered that idea since. During those meetings in Iceland, considerable progress was made in narrowing the differences between our two countries on some mighty important issues. Mr. Gorbachev and I were able to come closer to finding the magic formula which would permit us to reduce the number of nuclear weapons in our respective arsenals, even eliminate them entirely. But there was a hitch. The Soviet leader demanded terms that would in effect kill SDI and scuttle our chances to develop technology that may someday protect you and your families from nuclear missiles. It might have been Columbus Day, but I wasn't about to give away the store for a deal that we couldn't afford. I couldn't give up your future. Henry Ward Beecher once wrote, He who invents a machine augments the power of a man and the well-being of mankind. Well, America and the other three nations of the world are on the edge of a new era of technology and progress, one in which the well-being of mankind will soar as never before. Now, we can't be held back because of Soviet demands. What we can do, as in the case of SDI, is to share in the benefits of our innovations, even with our adversaries, to help make this a safer world. And that is exactly what I offered to him, that even when we finally had such a plan worked out, yes, we would share so that neither one of us would have to live in fear again. But we can't hold back the future or deny progress, but it may be difficult for you to imagine that I was once your age. I mention this because I want to share with you something written back when I was 15 years old. A noted professor of physics wrote, and listen to this, he was a very noted man in his field, this foolish idea of shooting at the moon is an example of the absurd length to which vicious specialization will carry scientists working in thought-tight compartments. Let us critically examine the proposal. For a projectile entirely to escape the gravitation of Earth, it needs a velocity of seven miles a second. The thermal energy of a gram at this speed is 15,180 calories. The energy of our most violent explosive, nitroglycerin, is less than 1,500 calories per gram. Consequently, even had the explosive nothing to carry, it has only one-tenth of the energy necessary to escape the Earth's gravity, hence the proposition appears to be basically impossible. And then there was a man that stepped off from a spacecraft and said something about one giant step for mankind as he took the first step of a human being on the moon. Well that was what I read, was written back in 1926. I admit I really didn't read this at that time, but it points out the importance of making decisions based on the future in this century. In this century we have gone from kitty-hawk to the moon, from telegraph to satellites and from pencils to computers. And I'm absolutely certain that you see even more change. The only question is whether it's for good or bad. It's more sophisticated missiles, capable of killing more and more people, or a new defense system to prevent war and save lives. And that is what SDI is all about. The future, a future of innovations that we cannot now imagine. There are those, like that physics professor I quoted, who label anything impossible because it can't be done today, or we must not let them or our adversaries hold us back. In this case I say it's better to build a defensive system, to have an insurance policy that protects us from attack, than to base the peace on mutual assured destruction. Mutual assured destruction, those three words. That is the system that was adopted by our two governments a few years ago. That is the ABM Treaty. And what it says is if we're both able to blow each other up, then we'll be afraid to try it and we won't do it. And as Washington is prone to do that shortened down to its initials, mutual assured destruction comes out a mad policy. And that's just what it is, stark staring mad policy. It's little more than a threatened slaughter of millions of innocent people. Reykjavik was a crossroads, not between having or not having an agreement, but rather between believing nothing can change or believing a future that offers hope that our world will someday be free of the awesome fear of nuclear attack. So I want all these young people up here to know I wish you Godspeed and your great adventure and remember to hold your heads high because you are Americans. God bless you. Thank you.


Because the other thing that we've not mentioned as well is racket feeling and, you know, whether we're experiencing an authentic feeling or whether it's one that we're covering over another feeling and it gets very confusing even for us that are feeling the feelings. Well, it's a TA term we've used there, which is racket feeling. So, you know, a definition of a racket feeling, if you want to put it that way. Eric Byrne called a substitute feeling. So it's the idea that the person that's born into a culture, say, where anger is the major way that the parents operate, for example. And therefore, kids might get stroked for expressing their own anger, but they don't get any recognition for being sad, for example. Or, you know, born into a culture of sadness, but they don't get any strokes for being happy. Yeah. So, rackets are substitute feeling. Welcome back to the next episode of The Therapy Show Behind Closed Doors with the wonderful Mr Bob Cook and myself, Jackie Jones. And we're on episode 91 now. We're speeding towards 100, I can't believe it. What should we do? How should we celebrate when we've got this? Another couple of months and we'll be 100 episodes. How are we going to celebrate that? I'll tell you on the 100th podcast, I'm going to bring some champagne in. Oh, pop the cork. And we'll pop the cork. And we'll have a glass of champagne. Maybe we should do one together. Maybe we should both be in the same room at the same time and do one that way. I don't know how to cope with that. Yeah, of course, the thought process of that. So we're zooming on. Yes. So what we're going to be looking at this episode is how do we deal with feelings in therapy? Oh, my gosh. Oh, I'm saying, oh, my gosh, because it's one of my favorite subjects.  It's such a wild subject. But where should we start anyway with this? But let's start with years and years and years and years and years ago.  Many people over the years also called me a narrative therapist because I love stories. So perhaps I'll link those two. So if we look at the psychotherapy terrain in ways and models of helping people change, we can put them into four particular classifications. One would be through cognition. Yeah. So focus to believe that change is really, you know, met by people changing their thinking. Yeah. And then a bit later on, or around the same time in the 60s came the ideas of behavioralism. That is through behavior, helping people change their behaviors that change will happen. And the rest will follow. I mean, when you put those two together a bit later on in the 80s, you had the formation of CBT, if you like, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, which is the vote done in 2020 in the NHS anyway. So through cognition leads to behavioral change and that will lead to cure. So we got cognition. We've got behaviors. We've got feelings. So if you particularly if you look at Fritz, Fritz Perls will talk to a lot about feelings and how if we deal with feelings, we will lead to thoughts and behavioral changes. So that's very important. And many of those different models that come from that, like EFT, for example, the feelings at the beginning of the road to change. And then of course, many of the physical therapies, whether it be Reiki or massage or body therapy, they believe in physical or, you know, bodily body changes, for example, are very important. And then of course, on top of that, you've got the whole sort of, which is the fifth way of looking at really is the whole level of spiritual change. And the many, many, many therapies that concentrate on spiritual change, the priority of change. So we've got many, many different models of therapy that would take, you know, different ways of looking at how we start and the therapeutic point. Okay, so that leads us to feelings. So do you think to be a well-rounded person, we need to be kind of okay in each one of those areas? Well, I'd be really very much an integrative psychotherapy. So I think we need to visit all those different dimensions with the client. Yeah, me too. Yeah, so. I'll be aware of areas where we may be lacking. Oh, absolutely. Because people will come into therapy with missing emotions or they may come into therapy feeling very confused and stop themselves thinking. Or they might come into therapy where they don't actually action their behavioural changes. Yeah. Or they might come into therapy in a spiritual wilderness. I think it's one of the things I learned in my training quite early on that I'm a thinker and a doer rather than a feeler type person, whether that's physiologically and noticing changes in my body or whether that's, you know, expressing my feelings very well. There's kind of a separation for me that I became aware of quite early on. Yeah, and possibly somebody who has thinking as their major contact point, if you like, if that's the way you're looking at therapeutic process. They may need to get, it may be the route to get to their feelings where there's an actual blockage. Yeah, yeah. And somebody comes in and says, you know, I'm okay with thinking and intellectualising and XXX. So, you know, to reach the client, you would meet them on a thinking level. But where they might need to get to in terms of what's sabotaging them actually changing might well be feelings. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. And it's the same with people who might come with feelings as their major contact level. So they see the world through feelings rather than say thinking or behavioural change. Yeah. You might have to meet them at the feeling level to integrate their thinking processes. Yeah. Which might sound a bit confusing for people listening, but it kind of works well when you know how the system is. It's like the four domains of the self. I know you've added spiritually stuff into that as a fifth one, but knowing that we've got those different areas that make up us as a whole person. But some were kind of defaults rather than the others. We've got the ability to access all of them, but we tend to not use them all all the time. Well, I think that's pretty clear. And where that goes back to is a person's childhood and their family of origin. So if in the family of origin, you know, things were mainly through thinking. Yeah. Parents didn't really utilise feelings. And in fact, it was the culture of the day. Yeah. Then the children will use thinking instead of feeling. Yeah. And in fact, they might get told off for having access feelings. Yeah. Because they, you know, they might actually be told, well, actually it's important to be stoic. Big boys don't cry. Yeah. Or that whole public school phenomena we're talking about. Yeah. Or, you know, I have permission to feel certain feelings, but not other feelings. Yeah. It's okay to be happy and joyful, whereas you can't be sad or scared or unhappy or angry or any of those what's seen as negative feelings. Yeah. Or, you know, in a netherbore park altogether, you might be born into a culture where I think where the parents see the world through feelings, but actually they have confused thinking. Yeah. Or they have blockages around thinking as the major medium for change. So it goes back to the home in the culture in their home, I think, to, to where a child operates. I was thinking about their daughter, who I think where this comes from, obviously is to us, but probably sees probably their default position might see feelings as the major way that you look in the world. But of course, she found a partner who saw thinking. Yeah. Thinking is a person's strength. So between them, they're pretty good. Yeah. And that's, that's often the case. We find somebody that fills in the bits that we don't necessarily have ourselves. Yeah. So, so, so clients who come to therapy. Oh, let's put it another way. Often majority of people, and I think it's often to do the culture as well. We have a pretty closed in culture in the United Kingdom come to therapy.  Yeah. Process. And then we spend quite a lot of, you know, therapy skills and help them accessing the parts of themselves, which, which are either feelings, which they need to get to, to be able to integrate the thinking of feeling behaviors together. Yeah.  I've just, I get quite addicted to a television program, a reality television program. Some of the people in the podcast or viewers might identify with or not. And it's called the circle. Yes. Yeah. You have these, say, 15 or 16 people eventually in a, in a sort of constructed hub, if you want, they all have different rooms. And they can only communicate through social media, through texts on the screen. Yeah. But you see in the way they communicate, the people communicate through thoughts and beliefs and shoulds and musts and odds. Yeah. And people who communicate through the expression of feelings. Yeah. And even though you might say stereotyping and we could probably say stereotyping, but the men have more difficulty to express feelings through the screen. Yes. Than the female gender. Yeah. And it's, it's really interesting. But even the language that we use, whether it's thinking language or feeling language, you know, like you say on a text, it comes across whether they're thinking people or feeling people or whatever it is, even, even through words on a text. That's right. So often, not only is our family responsible for scripting us, perhaps against expressing feelings, but also the culture in the UK is pretty closed for men to express, for example, feelings. Yeah. So a therapist in these situations, I believe, not only needs to look at how the past affects the present and go back to that cult, family culture we're talking about, but needs to give permission to the client that the world won't collapse if they express feelings. Yeah. And you know, at another level completely, some people need actually to be taught what a feeling is. Yeah.  And we teach them Educative Therapy for some people about what the expression of feelings actually looks like. Yeah. Which sounds surprising, but I can understand it. You know, if we're not exposed to feelings, if we don't talk about them when we're growing up and, you know, use a word to associate this feeling that I've got is connected to this word and this is where it comes from type of thing. I was always supposed to know. That's perfectly right. In the subject of feelings podcast, the other ballpark, as I said, which is I think rare, by the way, but I haven't researched it. And that's where the client can express feelings, but they get lost in the feelings. And they often see the world completely through feelings and have problems thinking of feeling at the same time. Which I would imagine is what can be quite overwhelming. It's what people say. Yes. Yeah. But if you're feeling you're weighing the world all the time, it can be overwhelming. Oh, if you if those are your issues around what you have just said, and you have problems seeing the world from a thinking and feeling place at the same time, or at least having that dimension, if you're caught in that whole world with a volatile of emotions, it become can become so overwhelming, so chaotic. Yeah. If the client lacks that emotional regulation, they have they often have severe challenges. Yeah. Somebody else somebody I was having a conversation with somebody a few weeks ago, and it kind of it's something that I've experienced myself when they were saying they find it very difficult to not be overly empathic with people.  That's another way of looking at feelings. Do you know what I mean? People that are empaths and knowing where we're feeling stop and somebody else's starts type of thing. Challenge days. Yeah. Somebody is a true empath if you want to put that way. I think it's rare than the other way around. That that is truly challenging because they're taking on all the emotions of the other person often very overwhelmed. Yeah. That is that that is rare and does happen. Yeah. So there's lots of reasons why people would come into therapy and, you know, feelings being an issue, let's say for them whether they feel them too much or they don't feel them at all or they don't know whether they're theirs. Is it, you know, has it been passed down? Is this my feeling? Is it somebody else's feeling? It's a minefield when you think about it. It's a complete conch mark. Yeah. Yeah. Do we know what are our feelings? What are you on the spot, Bob? Perhaps that should be a name of a podcast. How do we know? I think it's a very, I think that's a huge question. How do we know? I mean, I don't think it's so easy to ask about, you know. I think in the world of spontaneity, for example, in the world of present feelings, I think the more accessible you have to spontaneity, the more accessible you have to be in the here and now, the more likely to operate from our own authentic feelings. Yeah. A lot of people, though, who don't live in the here and now, lack spontaneity, they actually, I think, borrow from different models. I was thinking of a phrase which is very popular at the moment, which is learn sympathy. Yeah. And I think many people, especially men here, again, I know I'm stereotyping, but I think it's true. They learn how to be empathic. So they surround themselves with or even marry our partners who are empathic, and they learn to be empathic from that person, for example. Yeah. And they're not really empathic themselves. Yeah. They learn the behaviour of it and what it looks like and things. Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking the world of Asperger's and autism, where there's a so-called lack of empathy and they don't know what feelings are, really. Yeah. Another huge ball game, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And I suppose in that situation, they do learn the nuances of it, how you look when you're having a certain feeling and mimic the look of a feeling and things like that. Yeah. So it's a huge challenge. I spent most of my life, I think, as a therapist, developing ways and techniques to help people look at the different spit-off parts of themselves. And often, usually, one of the big spits is between thinking and feeling. Yeah. And it's usually because they've been traumatised. And what happens in trauma is you split off the part that is so scary or so difficult to relive or visit. You cut off that part and use another part of yourself. And it's often a split between thinking and feeling. Yeah. And feelings can be quite scary and overwhelming. Yeah, of course. We don't readily run into wanting to feel them because they can be quite overwhelming and scary. One other tip for therapists, I think, I would give listening to this podcast and how to do feelings whichever way we look at it this, is to tread carefully. See, I think therapists might... Let's take the scenario where they are searching for feelings, for example, maybe. Often, the thinking, the cognition I'm talking about or the behaviours are defences against the person expressing feelings for very good reasons. And I want to say, let's honour these defences and go with the defences and we'll eventually get the person defending against which might be the expression of feelings, scare or whatever these very good reasons. Yeah. To tread carefully. Yeah. Because the other thing that we've not mentioned as well is racket feeling. And whether we're experiencing an authentic feeling or whether it's one that we're covering over another feeling and it gets very confusing, even for us that are feeling the feelings. Well, it's a TA term we've used there. Yeah. Which is racket feeling. So, you know, a definition of a racket feeling, if you want to put it that way. Eric Byrne called it a substitute feeling. So it's the idea that the person that's born into a culture say where anger is the major way that the parents operate, for example. And therefore, kids might get stroked or expressing their own anger, but they don't get any recognition for being sad, for example. Or, you know, born into a culture of sadness, but they don't get any strokes for being happy. Yeah. So a racket is a substitute feeling. The one thing I would say though, and in inverted commas we can call them all, I think, authentic feelings. And as we explore one feeling, if you tread lightly, you'll get to the other. Yeah. You'll get to what's underneath a feeling. Yeah. The other way to look at it is for therapists or stroke counselors is to look at what's missing, which emotion is missing for the client. So the client that expresses a lot of sadness but never expresses happiness or never expresses anger, I would call a missing emotion. It's also like helping the therapist to search for the missing emotion. I've had quite a few clients that find it very difficult to express anger. Yeah. And I kind of say, for me, anger is a really good emotion for motivating me to make a change. I find anger quite useful if it's used appropriately. But it's surprising how many clients I can think of that don't know how to express anger appropriately. It's because they haven't been stroke, they haven't been recognised for that. That's the opposite. Yeah. They're told off. Yeah. Anger or being assertive or in that ballpark, they have to be polite or adapt or get the recognition. I'm quite good with anger. Yeah. So I haven't visited you in childhood, but I bet if we traced it back, unless you've changed in therapy, we would find the reasons. Yeah. Oh, definitely. Yeah. The other thing I noticed when I was in therapy and going through my training that I'm really good at is I cover up fear or scare with anger rather than showing fear. I will come out fighting. That's something that I do quite a lot even though, but I'm aware that I do it now. So that would be called a racket feeling in TA, a substitute feeling. Yeah. Or you would defend in a certain way. Yeah. So that feeling as a substitute for the hidden feeling. Yeah.  I come out fighting. Yeah. I prefer than using the words or unauthentic. I think they're all authentic feelings, but some are hidden more than others and some are defence feelings more than others. Yeah. The tricky little blighters feelings when we think about it. You know, to understand what we're feeling, why we're feeling it, where it comes from or what we do with it, it's quite, yeah, it's a bit of a minefield. Yeah. Needs the therapist to help the client, really. Yeah. Work through. What other way, whether it's where they overcome by feelings, whether they can't get in touch with their feelings. It's the therapist's sort of process to be helped and get through this. Yeah. Now, the problem comes, of course, is when the therapist themselves are afraid of feelings or they use cognition as a way of getting to feelings themselves. So you end up intellectualising, but you never really go near the process itself. That used to be me. I'll hold my hand up to that. When I first started practicing, I was frightened of having a history on it client or somebody that was a very feely person because I didn't think I could cope with that amount of feeling in a room. Do you remember what you used to do then? I would avoid it. I would tip it toe around it. I could sense when somebody was starting to get emotional and I would veer off and get them back into their thinking again because I found it more comfortable. Yeah, you'd probably intellectualise. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I would start doing educative things and I would be doing more of that to keep them away from it. Whereas now I'm a lot more comfortable with it. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's very common what you've just said. Yeah. I think I was always frightened of not being able to bring them back again. And that's probably because that's how I felt when I was feeling certain emotions that I would never come back from it. So I think I kind of took that into it. Yeah, now I suspect what happened when you went through your own therapy or in supervision dealt with your own what we would call counter-transference, then you would have not only helped yourself in life but been a much more complete therapist. Definitely, yeah. Yeah, and it's okay. I learned, you know, I know we've spoke about it but quiet, I don't like quiet either or I didn't used to like it as much.  Oh, yes, often just to be with them. That's it, yeah. To let them feel whatever it is that they're feeling and come out with the other end without having to actually do anything for them, yeah. That in itself may often be emotional regulation because, you know, it's a really big part, isn't it, emotional regulation where the child hasn't had a parent that helps them regulate their emotions. Yeah, yeah. The child doesn't actually know how to do it. Yeah. Yeah, which in a therapy room is really powerful to be there and to, whether it's modelling that to them or allowing them to work their own way through it or whatever, that's really powerful in a therapy situation, yeah. I'm glad you said somebody's ringing me. I'm glad you said modelling, by the way, because I think modelling is a really big part in terms of emotional regulation. Yeah. So that the client actually can see in front of them how the therapist actually, you know, deals with emotions. Yeah. Because they often haven't had that type of education if you like around emotions. Yeah. And holding that safe space for them to express their emotions is, again, it's quite powerful. Extraordinary part. They're not going to overwhelm us. You know, we can cope with whatever emotions they're having at that time, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I was quite happy to share if we could go back way back in history when I first went to therapy, I certainly didn't know anything about emotions or how to express emotions. And there was part of myself, which actually got to eventually, which had a process around, well, if I really, how can I explain this? If I really express my emotions, I'm going to lose it. Yeah. And I've heard somebody else. Yeah.  So there was a double pressure. Yeah. To not express feelings. So it's the belief systems that we often have.  Yeah, yeah. But it also buys into the system. Yeah. It's, it, the feelings are a minefield for. They're a minefield because we're not, they're a life of a lot of reasons. We don't talk openly about them, do we? So, you know, I know what I feel, but I don't necessarily know what somebody else feels. And it's, it's that void in between the two. You know, if I say, I'm feeling scared, I know how I feel scared, but I don't necessarily know how the other person feels when they're feeling scared. That's why therapy, and I think therapy groups as well, by the way, are so powerful here. Yeah.  Yeah. The person hears what the impact of the other person is. And usually it's the opposite of what they think. Yes. Yeah. But I think, you know, groups are very important or can be therapeutically here. Yeah. I'm not saying you have to go into group to look at all this, but I don't think groups can be very important in this interpersonal sharing, if you like. I think that's really valuable. Yes, it's good to have individual therapy, but, you know, to be with a group, I think you do get it on a different level. Yeah. It's completely different. The therapy isn't, I don't think you can compare the two. We had a podcast about it all, didn't we? Yeah. Yeah. Groups of individual therapy, but in the terms of what we're talking about here, sharing emotions or not sharing emotions at an interpersonal level, there's nothing which quite beats the person hearing the impact of their sharing or not sharing how it's on the other person. Yeah. Absolutely. You're right. It is a mindful, but it's a, that's why I said, it seems ages ago now in this podcast, I said to the therapist, if I had to give one tip around working with feelings, whichever way it is, it would be to tread lightly. Yeah. It's a mind field. Yeah. You can see the lines all over the place. Yeah. Well, I can erupt. Yeah.  Transfers. Transfers and what's going on for you and all that sort of stuff. Yeah. Another wonderful podcast, Bob. Yeah. And also just before we dash off, what you were just going to talk about that. podcast but I just want to mention it here about the therapist may choose at the right time to share their own feelings but it must be in the service of the client. Yeah yeah I've done that I have you know said in the session that what they've shared or what's happened has really moved me or I feel a certain way when you shared that or whatever just to acknowledge that I had made a connection to it or them in some way yeah. Good wonderful subject I feel very if yeah happy yeah yeah happy I feel very happy that we've been talking about this because I don't hear many podcasts around or discussions around where therapists talk about you know how we handle feelings. I think you know in society as a whole and families as a whole and groups of people at the home I think if we if we can sort of give permissions or models to talk more about feelings I think that's wonderful. Do you know Bob I think our podcast is amazing with the topics that we talk about because you talk about a lot of different topics. Well on different levels as well you know you're the font of all knowledge and my guru and mentoring everything and you've got all that side of it but then I think we share our own experiences as people and therapists as well yeah. I think we both of us share our wisdom as well yeah both of us have fears of experience that we can pass on and I think we also pass on not I would pass on our wisdom our skills our techniques but hopefully we can actually pass on how can I explain it the therapy the therapeutic process is not something to be afraid of. Exactly yeah and I can you know even just in this podcast talking earlier on about being frightened of people showing their feelings when I first started when I look at where I am now to to to then we do we get there in the end it's a really scary thing to be a therapist when you first walk in that room with your first clients yeah. It's a good thing to remember that you know the clients are as scared as you are usually. I can remember you saying that to me when we first started you know to me and it was like yeah and it's okay I think it's a good thing to go in there with some some interpretation or whatever if you went in thinking you knew everything about everything and you were really confident and I'm not sure that that's a good thing when you're starting off. No definitely not because it's not true. Yeah and I'm not sure it's true after 34 years but it certainly isn't true when you first start. Yeah so I don't know what we're going to do next time Bob. I think you only asked me to you know send on several topics and I will and there are so many so I'll send you some topics in the next three or four days so we can so we'll leave it as a surprise for the next one. It'll be a surprise for all of us when we do the next one Bob. Until then speak to you soon. Take care. Bye bye. You've been listening to The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode.


Being a streamer on Twitch is something almost every gamer wants to do, but unfortunately, it has gotten tougher and tougher in recent years due to more streamers getting in the game. As you can see on this graph, the ratio of streamers to viewers are lower than ever. It's probably gonna keep on getting lower in the next few years. Even though Twitch is growing at a rapid pace, the amount of streamers are growing even faster. This means more competition, especially if you're just starting out. Making Twitch a full-time job is hard, with only 1% of streamers being a Twitch affiliate. Only 17,000 out of 2.2 million are partnered. But is it too late right now? No, it's never too late. Just like at Aiden Ross or Tens for example. But it certainly is hard if you don't have a plan.  But you don't have to be a Twitch affiliate to make money. From sponsorships to outside revenue, about 10% of streamers can still make it somewhat big. One thing that could certainly help is to start growing on an easier platform, like YouTube. Post something that has value, not just your own gameplay. This will attract more viewers on YouTube. Mention your Twitch in every video as well. YouTube has multiple ways to get discovered, from search suggested in the homepage. You could do a video on a tutorial, on a particular match, on a review of a game. It's easier to branch out on YouTube and then hook them up on your Twitch. On Twitch it's really hard to do that. The main way to get discovered is either by a search or a suggested. And both are very competitive. If you were put in a situation where you're casually browsing a game, what are the chances of you popping up as suggested? Low, what are the chances of you popping up under a game? None, because you're averaging less than 100 viewers probably. You don't have to just go on YouTube. TikTok is definitely the easiest platform to get new viewers from as well. My next tip is to have something that the viewers are watching for on Twitch. If you're a good player or a funny player, it would make it way easier to grow. If you have a $1000 webcam but you don't have something to wow the audience, what's the point? Growing on Twitch also depends on which game you stream. If you start playing a small game, you're probably gonna get more viewers, because it's easier to find you. Nobody's gonna scroll down 30 pages of wars on streamers just to find you. So in conclusion, starting now is way better than starting later. But it's just gonna get more and more competitive from here on out. You still have a high chance of growing if you start uploading content on multiple social medias, especially YouTube and TikTok. Or if you're really good at the game or have a funny personality, that could also lead you to success easily. To compete, I'm gonna give you some examples of players who have literally blown up after Fortnite kind of fell off viewership-wise to where it was at its peak. You got Clicks, who's dominating right now, Buga, both competitive, Benji, Mongrel. Mongrel kind of was in there early too though. But unless you're gonna start competing and you're so effing good that a top player who already is streaming at a high level with high viewers picks you up. Example, main or verse. Example, Tifu and Scoped.


What's up everybody? Jason here for Jasper's casebreaks.com We're giving away three baseball mixture spots in this 2020 community contenders baseball one box break number two random teams So the way this worst guys is first we're gonna do the break. We're gonna randomize customer names and teams This should be the hits out of the contenders baseball box break Ultramar no veteran common ship everything else will and then at the end of the break will take all 30 customer names The top three names will win a spot each in the $300 mixer and as I added bonus guys since we sold that it's out today We're gonna give away a Vladimir girl junior Jersey autograph Jersey away. That is just a stock photo guys But the jerseys we're gonna give away is a blue one The Vladimir girl junior put the JSA autograph Jersey So there you go guys So basically top three at the end of the break and get a spot in the mixer $300 value each if you just miss out and you come in at number four You're gonna get the Vladimir girl junior autograph Jersey as a little added bonus just for selling this out today And then the last filler number three is on the website already and we'll give away one more jersey there as well So let's do this break first guys. It's roll Three and a six nine times. Good luck one two three four five six seven eight and nine There you go Aaron Donna Joseph one two three four five six seven eight D-backs and a lot of braves All right, so Aaron They go the D-backs all the way down to Joseph with the braves and again, we're just gonna stick into what you got But we'll shut up the most noticeable team. So this is 2020. So of course Louis Robert of course white socks right there Dodgers Houston Astros Curse with the Reds. I believe blue jays, of course, and then of course, I don't know if the rays or the Cardinals have Some Randy Rills and reina chances, but one or the other if not both They got no trades to switch up. Is he only in the rays in this one? Or can he be in both? All right. Well speaking of a redemption Could be Luis. I don't think he's live in this stuff Bam, no AJ puck rookie Fame ticket AJ puck and I believe that's a Oakland A's TJ Leonard Jeffrey haven't done any illusions if it looks like it's sold out We have a little team random where you're guaranteed a team. Everybody pays the same price That's on the website Washington junior Martina Louis Thorpe from Minnesota Brian or Brady for Houston Dylan and Dingler Draft pick tickets. We'll have to look up and see if this is affiliate with anybody. If not, then it'll be randomized and Tanner burns 1099 All right, there you go Let's quickly look up and see if those are affiliated anybody 2020 contenders baseball. Let me look this up really quick guys. All right, so we're gonna go Dylan Dingler and Dylan Dingler is part of the Tigers So the Detroit Tigers are gonna get that Dylan Dingler and then let's look up Tanner burns Tanner burns is Cleveland Indians Native you didn't see your name. You're probably Me doesn't I mean it I could be wrong, but there was two fillers You might have just bought into the one that's already on the website This one filled up like 30 40 minutes ago. I can double check but I your name I you might just be in the next filler though. All right guys, so there you go all the hits are accounted for So there you go guys remember this is break number two. So remember I'm gonna randomize now the customer names remember top three Get a mixture spot Number four gets the Vlad.  Let's roll it And we got ourselves a five and a three eight times. Good luck one two three four five six seven and eight five and a three eight times So Curtis last spot mojo looks like you just got you're not in the top three, but you're gonna get the Vladimir girl junior autograph Jersey and then top three's Aaron Kyle and Dario.  Let's put you in really quick Nate, I don't think we have cup honky right now But it just it'll break when it fills. There's no scheduled time frame The only time there's ever a schedule. It's one. It's already sold out and I put it here on this dock But you guys have access to in the chat But no schedule breaks once it fills it'll break And then look out for of course the little mini fillers and stuff like that All right guys. So there you go. So top three are in Congrats Dario Kyle and Aaron Curtis You're gonna get the Vladimir girl junior autograph Jersey So again one more is on the website already guys. I wouldn't be surprised if it's already filled Um 15 we're halfway there. So we're gonna give away one more Jersey guys and At least three more spots there and then that unlocks the baseball mixer, which we should we should be able to do A little later tonight. I appreciate you guys. Jasper's case breaks.com


As you may or may not know, MTV's hit show The Hills is scheduled for a comeback this year, titled The Hills New Beginnings. Plenty of the OG cast will be returning, including Audrina Patridge, Brody Jenner, and Spencer and Heidi Pratt of course. We actually just did a video on Heidi Pratt for this series too. Aside from those we're familiar with, another addition was none other than actress Misha Barton. Welcome to The Hills! It may seem a little bit random, but it's not really. Misha was one of the biggest stars of the OC. You really want to know what's bothering me? Which inspired MTV's Laguna Beach, which then led to The Hills, so you get it. Misha Barton, age 33 at the time of this recording, started in Hollywood from a young age, being a child actress in films like The Sixth Sense. As mentioned, she's best known for playing Marisa Cooper in the OC. I think it's great to get to play Marisa because she does have this great, you know, visual facade. She wears great clothing and, you know, she looks really put to… I was obsessed with this show. And Marisa was definitely my first ever girl crush. She was always beautiful, stylish, and looked like a model. Like many actresses who've spent most of their lives in the spotlight, the whole world was able to see her changes over the years and any of her ups and downs. The start definitely had some struggles in the past too. But now we're going to be focusing on Misha's look over time and how she's changed from then till now. What's going on guys and girls? My name is Cara and this series we've titled Before and After. In this video we're going to talk about Misha's body, her look, and overall changes over the years. I've done other celebrity transformation videos on stars such as Farrah Abraham and Lindsay Lohan and we'll have links to those at the end of this video. If there's anyone else you want me to document, let me know in the comments down below. Now let's get into this video. Although Misha looks a lot different now than when she starred in the OC, it's probably not from getting work done. It's been over a decade since the show so it's no surprise someone would change quite a bit. Looking at Misha's face then and now, none of her features seem drastically different. However, I feel like in some photos she looks a lot smoother and younger than others such as the selfie taken with her new Hills castmates. This could be the result of great makeup or even changes in weight since the star seems to fluctuate a lot in that area. However, there's also the chance that Misha has gotten some fillers. Fillers are super common nowadays as a means to prevent aging, make one look younger or both. So I really don't think this is a big deal. If she did get some done, it was likely the usual anti-wrinkle injections like to the forehead and or around the eyes. This will create a smoother forehead and get rid of fine lines such as crow's feet. It has been speculated that Misha's face may look different from cheek fillers, which would have given more volume to that area of the face. But in my opinion, those changes are probably just from her weight changes. Considering the OC was a pretty long while ago, Misha still looks like the same girl to me, just more mature, which generally happens as years pass. Looking at Misha's Instagram, she's been looking great and looks almost better with no makeup. I think it's safe to say that for the most part, she's all natural. Whatever the case, I have a feeling Misha is going to be looking gorgeous for her comeback on the hills. Moving on to Misha's body, I don't think she's gotten any work done, but she's really changed a lot through the years. The star seems to have had some trouble with her weight in the past and it definitely has gone up and down a lot. Back in her OC days, Misha was super skinny. With a height of about 5'7", she's also on the taller side. She's always looked like a model to me. Sometimes she almost seemed too thin though, but like many young stars, there was likely pressure to look a certain way, especially for her character on the OC. Misha also commented on this, stating, when you're 16, you're not what you are at 25. I was really young and had not filled out at all. Not everybody stays the same body type. Regardless, her body looked great and she never failed to impress in a bikini. Only once Misha left the OC did her weight change. It was also known that Misha has had some struggles with partying, drinking, and scandal through her years in and out of the spotlight, which definitely would affect anyone, and likely these factors had some bearing on her weight. At certain points in time, Misha got much heavier than we recognized her, which caused tabloids to comment. All the negativity that celebrities get when they gain even a little bit of weight must be a real blow to the ego, and it's pretty awful. Even Misha herself has spoken about this, saying, it was always, she's too skinny. She must be sick. And then it was, she's too big. I was never the right weight. You can only take so much before it affects you. Misha has also been hospitalized most recently in 2017 after a drugged incident. Mother, I always knew it, I always knew. But months after all of this, Misha returned doing a photo shoot on the beach. Her body looked great and fit again, and she seemed to be healthy and happy. These days, the star still looks healthy, and like she's keeping herself in shape. I guess we'll see how she looks when she's on the hills. Misha is best known for her dirty blonde hair on the OC, which was somewhat of a signature to her character too, in my opinion. It looked great on her and the sun-kissed look definitely fit the California vibes. Although she didn't seem to have any major changes in her hair through the years, she's experimented a bit with different colors. She's opted for a lighter blonde more than once, which also suited her. She's also done the whole bangs thing and somehow pulled it off well. Misha even had her fair share of brunette days showing off some lighter brown shades as well as darker. I honestly think all of these colors suited her, and even the dark brown made her light eyes pop. My personal favorite has always been her dirty blonde hair from back in the day though. These days, it seems that Misha's back to a dirty blonde color with a lot of highlights. I think this type of look suits her best and is the most natural. Misha has also had great taste and fashion over the years, and I know that I was envious of her character, Marissa Cooper's outfits on the OC as well. Back then, Misha's style was fun and young, but totally suitable. I would say she was a trendsetter. These days, the star's look has become more sophisticated and mature. Being in her 30s, her outfits seem more age-appropriate, but at the same time, still cute and high fashion. She definitely knows how to get glammed up. So even though it seems that Misha's had her fair share of drama and hardships, I think that her comeback on The Hills will be good for her. She seems to be happy, healthy, and excited to be back in the spotlight, so I think she'll continue to evolve over the course of the show. I've always loved Misha and thought she was gorgeous, so I'm definitely looking forward to seeing what she's up to. All right, guys and girls, that wraps up this video here on Before and After. If you wanna talk more about Misha's transformation, you can hit me up on Instagram. Let me know who else you'd like me to make a Before and After video on, and I'll see you guys in the next video. Bye.


I was a game tester for Nintendo back in the 80s and 90s. I tried Super Mario Bros. 3 back for the NES, I get paid at least $100 a week. I even tried Super Mario World 2 for the SNES. But this year, I received a new game console that has never been introduced yet. It was called the Ultra 64. It also came with a game called Super Mario 64. On the cartridge, it said, July 29, 1995 build. It was three days before August. I was so excited to be the first one to see the graphics of the Ultra 64. It was called that before it was called Nintendo 64. I put the cartridge in, and the game started. It went to the title screen. I was the first one to hear Charles Martinet in a real video game. Mario's head popped out and yelled, I pressed start and went straight to the game. The design was so cool. I went into Princess Toadstow's castle. Something dark and mysterious happened at this moment. The music was scary and unsettling. I was freaked out by this. I went into one of the paintings. The white screen said, Mario feeding time. I was disturbed, but pressed start. Mario was in a cage inside the ocean. A big eel came up and tried to eat him. I was scared at this moment because the eel looked terrifying. Mario was drowning and the eel disappeared. It had the bowser laugh, but was even scarier. Mario was kicked out of the painting. The picture changed into a depressed Luigi picture from Luigi's mansion, even though Luigi's mansion or depressed Luigi didn't exist in 1995. I was exiting the room. The castle and the music were even scarier. I went to the next room. I went through a different door this time, leading me to a long hallway and a stairway. The stairs went down to a double door at the bottom, and the hall went to a door at the end of the room. I went through the smaller door, and it led me to a garden, an area with a fountain with a statue in the middle. After I approached the fountain, the sky turned red, and the words, El Israel 2401, starting flashing on my screen with disturbing music, then the screen went black and poked up again to show Luigi's face down in the water, floating lifelessly. I freaked out after that, and I took the door again, and ran through the hallway down the stairs, and through the double door at the bottom where I proceeded to the next room. I saw standard blue painting and went closer to it. Then I saw Wario's head, and he said, You are fun, Wario show you fun. I was running from Wario, and he went closer. The closer he got, the more knocking there was on the speakers. When Wario was about to eat Wario, the screen went black with Wario doing a blood curdling scream. Wario woke up and saw Luigi crawling. He said in Tony Rosato's voice. Who crawled with us, Wario? Wario ran until he eventually saw Wario again. There were so many crawling spider Luigi's everywhere. I was so traumatized by this. Wario yelled. Luigi's attack! 69 Spider Luigi's were chasing Wario until they knocked him down. The screen went interruptedly black, and Wario did the scariest laugh ever heard. It showed a cut scene of Wario eating Wario in one bite. Then it showed the game over screen, but with Luigi with his depressed face. Then Luigi looked at me and said, Wario's gone forever because of Wario. Then it showed a cut scene of him sobbing for 30 seconds. Wario came up and ate him in one gulping bite. The Ultra 64 turned off, and so did the TV. I sat in my room in the dark with only one light bulb. Then the power went out. I went to my bed and went to sleep. I shipped the game and console back to the Nintendo on July 30th. They sent me a letter on August 2nd. They said, Dear name withheld, we apologize for all this. The Wario head, and Spider Luigi's, and all that. We will make sure this never happens again. From Nintendo of America. I had nightmares for two months after that. On February 1997, I got a non-scary version of the game, and it was more fun now than it was back in 1995. I quit the job in 2000, and now I am safe with all the games. But there has been a rumor about personalized copies of Super Mario 64.