Welcome back everyone. If you have friends outside please ask them to come in because we have a very exciting session coming up here on sustainable manufacturing. I'm Jenny Milne. I'm the Associate Director for the Advanced Research Projects at the Precourt Institute for Energy and what that means is I help to run the research portfolios. I help define the research portfolios and identify topic areas, craft requests for proposals in defined topic areas and see all the great ideas that come in from the faculty. So this session includes a couple of those projects we funded through a programme called the Precourt Pioneering Projects and we did a call on reinventing plastics. So as you know plastics are ubiquitous, they're everywhere. In fact even in us if you read that New York Times article recently they're part of our bodies now too apparently so I'm not quite sure what we'll do with that but we have to deal with the waste. We're not doing a very good job right now so one way is to to take the waste we have out there and process it in ways that are beneficial. Another way is to completely reinvent plastics. So what you're going to hear today are some interesting projects and over and above what we've funded from these fine professors here. These projects are really looking at how can we reinvent plastics in a way that we don't have as much waste to deal with. Both have 3D printing as a big feature in there and I'll let the professors do the speaking on those topics briefly. I'll introduce Dan Congrive and Danielle Mai who are one project together. They're both assistant professors here. Dan is in electrical engineering and Danielle is in chemical engineering and they're going to talk on a circular 3D printing economy enabled by photon up conversion and then after that you'll hear about 20 minutes from them and then after that Joe DeSimone will talk partially on his project that we funded in getting in front of the additive manufacturing revolution and more broadly about some of the real cool stuff that's that he's doing in that space with his group and then we'll have a couple questions maybe from me on the panel and then go to you the audience for questions and so please think about what you might like to know and ask these professors is a big opportunity here to get to know a really exciting and upcoming space. So with that I'd like to introduce Dan. Yep, Dan, thank you. Thank you so much for that kind introduction and thank you to all of you for being here today. This is such a cool event to not only celebrate the teams that we've built the science and the engineering that we've done but also really take a moment to look forward to the next grand challenges to build teams to do really cool science and engineering to begin approaching those and so in that vein today I want to tell you about some of the work that we've been doing in a collaboration that's lasted a couple of years now focused on can we build a 3D printing resin that you can both print and erase so you can take a resin cure it make your shape but instead of throwing it in the land fill find a way to be able to reuse it again and again and again and before we get started I of course want to thank pre-court for the wonderful funding and the support not only in terms of just funding the project but also providing us the connections the guidance to really push it forward and excel. All right so 3D printing of course is an exploding field we now measure the market in tens of billions of dollars and we use hundreds of millions of kilograms of plastic every year and both of those are growing substantially year over year and this is a really exciting time right there's a lot of really cool work being done we're going to hear about some of it in just a moment but also it's a really large challenge because almost all of those materials are single use right so when you 3D print something you're going to have some material that's lost right away typically in support structures or other mechanisms that goes in the trash right away you use your part and at the end of the day that part goes in the trash as well and so we really urgently need a solution to come up with a way to reclaim and recycle these 3D printing resins and keep that material out of landfills and out of oceans right to put this another way in our economy here currently often you take your printer you print that create whatever really cool thing you're trying to do you separate out and bin those supports and you get your final part that you can use for whatever application you want and at the end of the day you trash that and that ends up in the garbage as well and so our proposal is if we can find a way to regenerate this resin in some form now you can take those support structures and separate them out take your final part and recycle that and reuse this material now it's pretty easy to make a PowerPoint slide with a black box that says regenerate resin on it right that's not that hard to do it's a lot harder to actually go into the lab and figure out the materials that we want to achieve this now there's a couple of different ways that this type of printing and erasing have been proposed and we want to do it and what I think is kind of a unique way which is to utilize light so it's very common these days to utilize light to make chemical bonds right to take your polymer and print it together sorry I don't mean to walk in front of you guys I just like to wander to take your bonds and form your bonds and make your resin into a plastic but we actually want to use the same technique to find a way to break it apart and it turns out to do this you really have to rethink things from a fairly fundamental level right we have to think about how do we design that resin to be able to efficiently make and break bonds how can we design the materials that go within it to enable light penetration we'll talk more about that in just a second and how do we engineer the polymers so that in that final printed part you get all the properties that you want but then you can still erase it at the end of the day and so this is what our team is really focused on now one of the challenges to a light based approach like this is light penetration and that may sound like a really small technical detail but this is actually a really large challenge that spans across fields right I think my favorite example of this is tissue right if you're trying to run a reaction say create a drug at a tumor site do some bio-imaging do optogenetics whatever it is it's often very difficult to get that light to where you want it to be because it gets scattered it gets absorbed on the way in and there's no less a challenge when talking about additive manufacturing right if you want to print a point in the middle of a vat of resin it's very difficult to access that point and just that point right you could for example shine a laser in here but you can see two really key challenges that come up right away first you lose your selectivity right you're not able to really hit a single spot you hit everywhere coming in with your laser and everywhere coming out with it right but second that light gets really substantially absorbed and in this picture here we've actually diluted things down quite a bit but if I were to do this picture with a solid piece of plastic you would find that that light is completely absorbed within the first hundred microns or so right so from an eraser type of perspective if you want to get that light deep within your material it's almost a non-starter it's going to be absorbed at the surface only to remedy this challenge my lab has come up has spent some time studying a process called up conversion this is a process that takes two low energy photons and combines their energy to create one higher energy photon in this process we use it for all sorts of fun things photovoltaics night vision anti counterfeiting but applied to the challenge here it can really address both of these challenges first due to its quadratic nature you can get that selectivity back so you only get that blue light focused at the middle point of the beam that red light comes through and doesn't affect the resin at all and second we can tune the penetration depth to be whatever we want and so this technology can really enable these light based resin adjustments okay and that's our low energy red photons coming in we previously demonstrated that this can be really useful for volumetric 3d printing so taking that selective spot coupling it to a photo initiator and using that to basically 3d print an entire volume of of area here we can see a video of that running for example at the focal point of that laser beam there's a little dot of blue light that couples to an initiator which causes the resin to harden and you just scan that you hit every point that you want to cure in three dimensional space you've built a fairly nice 3d printer no resin flowing nice static resin that all sorts of fun things like that purely optically addressable which is fun and we can make reasonably shaped 3d prints out of that but we want to take this one step further right we want to take this technology and really apply this to how we can utilize this to not only print parts like we see here but also how to erase them and so to be able to do that we need three really big pieces that we need to design sort of from the ground up the first is we need to design our resin in a way that it can be efficiently printed and efficiently erased and the parameter space for this is enormous from what connecting groups what connecting moieties you use you see one example here to what type of arms and densities and all sorts of materials you want to use second we need a way to make sure that that light can be delivered where we need it to be across that entire brick of printed material now we just talked about that one so we can at least partially check that box and then finally we need to make sure that we can quantify this across cycles right this is no good if it only works once or twice we needed to work three four five six you know hopefully infinite times that you can make and break these bonds on demand and so to take a look at some of the steps that we've made some of the science we've developed in all three of these aspects handed over to Danielle to tell you about some of the cool things that we've developed and thank you everybody for joining us today so as Dan laid out this problem for the next few minutes I'm just going to share the progress that we've made in terms of making our first generation resin that can be polymerized and depolymerized so the first piece is this resin design right so in a traditional polymer you're usually on creating really really long molecules one step at a time so you have these building blocks that add on to each other and they do so in a way where it's favorable to just make a giant molecule and it's really difficult to break it all up again right and so our idea here is to use light to give us a way that we can undo that polymerization so we're actually going to start with something called a pre-polymer in our resin so the idea is that we have a polymer that has a lot of different end groups hanging off of it you can see those are the little purple circles in polymer world we draw everything is a squiggly line and from here those end groups are our photo active groups and so we can use those to create bonds by using light so if two of those groups come together then they create a bond when they're exposed to this 365 nanometer light and then we also choose a group that can be unbonded right so we can break this bond using an orthogonal wavelength and so here we're using a higher energy wavelength in order to cause those two bonds to fall apart and we don't just do it on these you know ideal pictures we have real chemistry that are going in so we're relying on something called an anthracene chemistry right now this is a molecule that forms a dimer and then it can undimerize but there are a lot a lot a lot of other photo polymer or photo reactions that we can leverage in next-generation resins so this is just where we're starting for our model material one of the challenges with this particular material is that you see everything is driven by UV light which we hadn't been able to access with Dan's up conversion technology quite yet and so a second major thrust of this work has been to think about how do we deliver UV light deep into a material unfortunately the capsules that have been used in some of the earlier 3d printing resins have requirements that don't work well with the chemicals that you need to do UV based up conversion but Dan's lab in collaboration with us have explored a different type of encapsulation method where we can keep our up conversion materials protected from the solution that they're living in right so now we're able to think about doing up conversion in a water-based environment which has otherwise been really difficult to access and the method that we have here allows us to partition all different types of up converting molecules we've tested I think 20 different kinds and 19 of them work so most of the time it works and we've now been able to demonstrate our ability to focus blue light and turn it into UV light deep within a solution so in the middle panel this is kind of the setup of the proof of principle that we're doing you can imagine if you shine UV light onto a cuvette and you try to focus it to a point you get all of that scattering that we showed earlier on the right here we see the actual image of this where we have a fluorescent reporter showing us where we're getting UV because we can't see UV with our own eyes and then in the bottom when we switch over to a blue light that's going to drive our up conversion process we see indeed far into the solution right almost a centimeter deep into this cuvette we can focus a little point and that allows us to do this volumetric printing using ultraviolet wavelengths so that's two pieces of the puzzle the third piece is thinking about how do we measure all of the materials as we're making them and so I'm going to get a little bit more technical here we do a lot of measurements using something called a shear rheometer so rheology is the study of how things flow right polymers switch from a liquid form into a solid form when you're printing them right and so we're trying to measure when things stop flowing we do this by applying a strain to a material and so you can imagine if the material goes with the strain it's more solid like and then if the material stays in place as you apply the strain is dissipating energy so it's more liquid like and so we want to see when that transition is happening so you'll see on these graphs here is that at short times we get dominant liquid like behavior right this is when we just have that polymer resin and then as we turn the light on let it shine onto a bulk film of these materials we get a crossover where we're switching to this solid like behavior right so we're now switching from that resin with all of these polymer molecules just floating around and then they start to link together and they hit a point where you get this nice stable network that looks what you would want a 3d printed material to look like okay so at the right end here this is all just showing printing in one direction right so what happens when you shine light onto these materials of course we're interested in making this all circular and so we can also swap out the light source on this particular reometer and we can look at erasure our initial things didn't work right research is very difficult and that's why we keep pursuing all of these avenues so in our first pass here we saw that when we switched the light source we do get a weakening of our material so we're softening it and we're doing some on cross linking and this is a log scale so that's probably ninety percent softening but that's not enough to unprint it back into the liquid form right so this is you know part of the challenge of plastics right it's really hard to get them back into that monomer or that small molecule form where they can flow again thankfully we have a great team working behind us and so they've tried a bunch of different polymer structures concentrations things like that and we do now have some promising results where we've hit a point where we're able to fully on cross-linking material and as you can see in this particular graph at longer times we're starting to recross link this material with the wavelength that should be doing on cross linking so we're uncovering a lot of really interesting fundamental science along the way as we're reaching this goal of creating a circular 3D printing resin so with that I hope that you've seen that we can create these resins that can be printed and erased hopefully we can get to more circularity as we continue on in this project we started delivering UV light deep into materials and we're tuning that system to be compatible with the 3D printing resins and then we finally can quantify the performance as we're going through all of these processes so we understand you know how to design all of these materials for that next generation of resin okay so with that I want to thank the folks who are behind the work postdocs Tracy Schlammer and Mike Burroughs have been instrumental in getting all of this online and they've trained a bunch of graduate students who are now continuing the project Mike and Eleanor have a poster later today if you want to check that out and then thank you so much to the pre-court institute and all of our other funding sources for letting this happen. Beautiful to see the innovative work from Danielle and Dan. The share with you a story that is a little bit longer in time and maybe a little bit more context. Manufacturing is a 12 trillion dollar marketplace. Polymeric products is 1.1 trillion of that and 30% of that's injection molded and it's not uncommon for these injection molding tools especially for high performance products like electrical connectors to cost a million dollars maybe take you 6 to 12 months to get your hands on them and once you have them you don't want to make any changes because you have to have that return on investment. And so this is a big part of the marketplace and that inhibition of the injection molding process the time the ROI often stifles innovation because you have to let of your products because you have to reap the ROI on that. Because of the molding process these materials are often heavier than they need to be they could be much more dematerialized. The materials have the properties but the process for making them often doesn't. And it triggers intensive and cumbersome supply chains and there's almost no recycling as it was talked about. And when you think about the supply chain I love this quote from Thomas Friedman on any given day 2% of the world's GDP can be found in a UPS truck. And that speaks to the energy associated with the nature of our manufacturing processes. And not only that because of the way we make things we end up making lots of them and storing them. There's an enormous amount of slow-moving inventory that's in climate control buildings and you know the premise that we talk a lot about is what's the potential for a warehouse in the cloud and changing the dynamics of supply chains and free enough capital associated with storage. So what we've been talking about is molding the formative techniques and the subtractive techniques are very competitive think about milling CNC milling and others. And then we've all been talking about additive. And I think the biggest opportunities for additive manufacturing are making things that you can't mold. And lattices are one of those things and this building and lots of bridges are made with struts. But when you have 14,000 struts you can't assemble individual ones you have to have it appear. And that's really the opportunity and maybe to say something very simple that I think is profound we don't buy things you can't make. And you think about it you've got to be able to make things to sell it. And what that really means is we're talking a lot about manufacturing science here as opposed to thinking about prototypes and the like. And so a product is not a prototype. So 3D printing has been challenged by its slow. The layer by layer approach leads to anisotropy and mechanical properties and material choices have been pretty limited. So we came at this over 10 years ago now with a process that allows 3D printing go 10 to 100 times faster than traditional printing. And it involves a breakthrough in material science for a window at the bottom of the printer. This window here that holds a reservoir of liquid is not only optically transparent but it's also permeable to oxygen. Oxygen inhibits the photo chemistry that the light triggers. And so when you lower this platform into this reservoir it'll get very close to the window. And then you'll see a two dimensional pattern of light emerge from underneath it. And what'll happen is that emerging part will bond, adhesively bond to the platform and not bond to the window. There'll be a gap between the part and the window. And that gap allows resin to be pulled into by suction forces underneath the part. And this is a significant improvement in the speed of 3D printing. This video is sped up. But you get the sense that we can make things much more quickly than had the opportunity to do in the past and you can make things that are unmoldable by using a two-dimensional pattern of light. It kind of looks like Terminator 2 from those movies. Terminator 2 movies. Terminator 2 movies. And so this is actually what's happening. This is optical coherence tomography image of showing the part growing. You see the gap underneath the part. As you pull the part up there's a low pressure here in the center that draws resin in underneath of that growing part. And this allows it to go much faster. And we've worked through all the details of this process. I don't want to go through that here. But I think of this as a software controlled chemical reaction to grow parts. And we've developed printers and processes that are completely controllable with software and resins that are tuned so that we can systematically make exactly what we want to design. And we spun out a company called Carbon. We've been at this for a while. We've now moved this into high volume manufacturing. And this is an example of a fairly large factory in Asia making adidas running shoes. In addition to the printing process going much faster as the challenge is light can be a challenge to make a material with a wide range of properties. Some of the best polymers are made by reactive resins. Think about epoxies and polyurethanes and silicones. No one used those in 3D printing before because they would gel prematurely because 3D printing is historically slow. But now that we're printing significantly faster, we had a window to use these. But those resins are typically not UV sensitive. So we basically combine a UV curing system with a reactive system. And we call that dual cure. And that gives you a wide range of mechanical properties that cure to 4D 3D printing resins typically didn't access. And so this now becomes a platform. We can print fast. We have resins that have the properties to be a final part. And I've got a little video that pulls it all together here for you. We salute all those who believe good enough is never good or enough. Those who pursue excellence for themselves and for our planet. At Carbon, we apply our craft using science and technology to push limits and realize products unmatched in performance. Our difference is one you feel and it is light years ahead of anything else out there. You feel it in running shoes that control energy with every stride. Saddles that enhance your performance and comfort mile after mile. Helmets that increase your protection every time you take the field. Clear aligners and dentures that improve oral health and give you more than a few reasons to smile. Crafted by Carbon is a promise. It stands for dedication and focus to crafting what you and our planet truly need. Ongoing creation of amazing answers to our toughest questions. We salute the leaders, dreamers and doers who keep creation in motion who boldly imagine a brighter future and craft it every day. So this has gotten a lot of traction in a wide range of industries from consumer products to automotive to dental, as you saw there. But when we look forward and we think about, you know, where do we need things to go? We heard some of that earlier in recyclable resins and new resins are able to do that. We also think about, how can we print faster? How can we do multi-material printing and how can we do high-resolution printing and open up new applications? And there's a lot of opportunities here for advancing the software and the operating system and even further. And let me focus on high resolution printing right now. This is what my lab here at Stanford has been doing. This is an example of just a collage of some amazing things from the literature that people are demonstrating, important new concepts in physics and optics and biology. But it's hard to really think about whether you could actually scale these things because they're often made with direct right tools and there's a lot of people interested in accessing these products. So we've put together now the same type of physics and chemistry that I just showed you in the large scale. We've now put together a printer that goes to single digit micron resolution. So we've got built a printer with 1.5 micron resolution and the printers I showed you earlier were 75 microns and up. And we did this by controlling the optics and understanding the reaction engineering and the fluid mechanics and developing the software with the appropriate feedback loops. And just to summarize, a lot of work. We always like to print the Eiffel Tower as an example. This is the Eiffel Tower with the commercial carbon printers that I showed earlier. And then you can start looking at Eiffel Towers with a 30 micron resolution. And then you got that little guy right there at 1.5 micron. So now we're starting to make things that, you know, red blood cells, 8 microns. And so this has got pixel size of 1.5 micron. And so where we're going with this work now is in a number of different areas. One area is in thinking about what gets done in a fab today and in a microelectronics industry and thinking about ways of doing back end of the line packaging, cooling chips, facilitating chip to chip communication, compute and storage on the same chip, those sorts of things. We're also really interested in MEMS. MEMS is a fascinating area. Often these are macroscopic devices and the thousands of micron range as opposed to integrated circuits pushing single digit nanometers. And it's hard to make things at this length scale. And everything in the microelectronics industry is a challenge from an auxiliary chemistry point of view. And this paper is now 20 years old and it's wanted to galvanize a lot of my thinking. And it's got a pithy title, the 1.7 kilogram microchip. And the point is it takes 1.7 kilograms of stuff to make an individual computer chip. You think about all the solvents, the etchants and the like. And I think our lab is generally thinking about is can non-fab approaches and advanced 3D printing techniques dramatically reduce a number of steps and access products that are now being made in a fab but try to do it outside of a fab, do it off the road map and come up with entire new ways of making things. And that's what the lab is indeed doing. And part of this, too, is opening up new opportunities in energy storage. And I'm fairly new to Stanford and I often reflect where you're at influences what you work on. And when in Rome, do as the Romans do. And here at Stanford, when at Stanford, work on batteries. And so we're getting pulled in some amazing projects where there's opportunities for inflow batteries and aqueous zinc rechargeable batteries and thinking about the electrodes. We can print polymers that can be pyrolyzed to carbon, elemental carbon. And opens up new opportunities for flow directing electrodes and other things. And so these are the range of projects that the lab is involved with. We're also moving this into other areas, too. And in particular, we do work a lot in the drug delivery space. This is so I'd love for you to just look at this and think on these other areas I just mentioned that we'll be able to make some progress in the coming years. But we're doing a lot in the area of micro needles. In particular, micro needles as a new approach to delivering vaccines into the dermal space of skin. And with high resolution printing, you can start making structures that you could mold. We could 3D print these. But now we're making on multiple geometries. And this can open up entire new approaches for drug delivery and sequester things into these lattice structures. And part of that is delivering liquids into the dermis. Think about the Moderna type of vaccine or maybe the Moderna vaccine that gets sequestered into these little lattices and they get freeze dried. Liophilize and insert it as now a dry product and it can be reconstituted in your own interstitial fluid in the skin. So the group's working on that. But we keep advancing the 3D printing technology. And I showed you the clip process where you have a negative pressure pulling liquid into that gap. When we stare at this, we recognize that this is a mass transport limited process that chemistry will go much faster. We're not at what's called reaction rate limited. We're a mass transfer limited. And so how do we get more resin into the printer into the printing process into that dead zone? And we've come up with a process that we now call iClip or injection clip. And what we're doing now is we're mechanically injecting liquid into that gap as opposed to relying on suction forces. And when we do that, we have resin coming through the platform through a microfluidic channel that's dynamically created in the design of the part. And we're pushing resin into that gap. And by mechanically pushing it, we can deliver a lot of resin to the gap instead of just relying on suction forces. And we can think a lot about the software to design the channels within the part. And it also opens up multi-material printing. And so that's a holy grail in a lot of the light-based processing. And so we've now demonstrated that this printer can now go another order of magnitude and speed 10 times faster. It can work with resins that are much higher viscosity and do multi-material printing. And let me just walk you through some of the details. This is the diagram of the flow field with resin in a traditional clip process coming from the periphery and then the opportunity for resin now coming through the center of a part with this particular geometry. And it's a fundamentally different process. And it goes 10 times faster. But one of the most interesting things, and Dan showed a lot of the examples of often you see parts with a lot of supports on them. And the reason is the part can fall off the platform when you're printing it. You have to hold the part onto the platform. And the reason is when you have a liquid layer between the solid part and the window, there's something called a Stefan adhesion force. And so this is we put a load cell on the platform. You can measure the load.  You wait for the liquid to flow in and there's a stress relaxation as the liquid flows in, raise a platform, lower it, or the liquid flows in each time. And that part can fall off the platform if there's too much force on the part. It's kind of like if you have a drop of liquid between two sheets of glass. It's hard to pull it apart. Well, when you inject liquid through the part, through the platform, you can eliminate those forces. In fact, you can put so much liquid coming in, it can be like a rocket ship.  So it's actually different. And what that means is you can now do 3D printing without supports. So this is a Stanford bunny that people talk a lot about here at Stanford. Lots of supports on it. And now we're able to print that by putting these channels in an innervated way through the part. We can eliminate the need for supports and that can reduce the waste in 3D printing. Another thing that we can do and it's sort of a holy grail 3D printing, nobody 3D prints microfluidics because of over curing. The light as was talked about goes further than you want. It's hard to combine light in a Z-axis in one micron layer thicknesses. But with the liquid coming through the channels, it's oxygenated just like the liquid in the reservoir. And that allows us to keep these channels open. They're making negative spaces in the Z-axis. So now we have light control in the XY plane with really small pixels. And then we use fluid mechanics to control the over curing in the Z-axis. And now we have all three Cartesian coordinates. This opens up high resolution 3D printing at this length scale. And so we're making all sorts of interesting devices, all sorts of reactor designs, pumps, all on this microfluidic scale, combining them with micro needles, doing all sorts of new kinds of medical devices. So let me end there. People have been talking about industry 4.0 for a long time. Automation, AI, sensors, inventory control. I think what's held back industry 4.0 significantly is having a digital fabrication technique that actually can scale with manufacturing. And I believe that those techniques are emerging in front of us now. We saw some really cutting edge stuff earlier. This is a little bit more mundane here, but it's getting traction in the field. And it's allowing people to make things digitally instead of the old way. And I think that unlocks the true power of industry 4.0. And with that, thank you for your attention. And we'd be happy to answer any questions. Awesome. Very exciting stuff going on there right from the lab scale into the real world.  So I want to see hands in the air for questions. But I'll start with the first couple of questions if I may. So I want to start from the more deeper scientific side. And so Dan and Danielle, so you're dealing with different polymers than you normally would. So can you say a little bit about these polymers and what other applications they might have? How can your approaches that you're doing here be applied to other things? Because I think it's really cool concepts. Yeah, absolutely. So we started off thinking about how do we make this thing that you can print and erase just for recyclability. But I think there are a ton of opportunities in using that erasure mechanism for other applications. So I work a lot on biopolymers where we're interested in making high resolution structures. So can you use erasure to make, say, a vasculature of something that you've already 3D printed? Can you use that to backfill with a different type of material? How can you make these resins circular in other ways in addition to the light-based circularity? So in our lab, we're starting to explore some protein-based resins, things like that, that would also be biocompatible and degradable at a different time and length scale than what you would have from the initial photocross-linked material. So those are just a few of the applications that are in my mind. I think there are fun opportunities as well as playing with things like the resolution of materials, where you're limited by the light that you can shine on a particular sample. But you could imagine if you can play very careful tricks with these two processes, maybe even occurring at the same time, you can manipulate that spatial dynamic in a way that might allow you to achieve higher resolution than either individual process by themselves. So we're exploring those dynamics as well. I think those will be really fun over the coming years to really tease out and look for opportunities there. Cool. And Jo, if I might. So you presented a whole bunch of different plastics and processes and things. And so what were you most surprised about or excited about in the lab at that fundamental science level or the discovery that you made that most excites you? How hard manufacturing is? It's hard. And an immense amount of respect. I think when we got into this, we were maybe not as understanding of all the different unit operations that it wanted to do to make things. I mean, we thought the sexy stuff of printing and resins was good enough and people could figure out how to clean a part after you make it or how to set up a supply chain. And global supply chains look, we had a factory up and running in Redwood City, just north of here. And we tried to set it up in Germany and it didn't work. And this was going from four printers to a pod of 20 printers. And now we're dispensing resins from 1,000 liter totes and our contract manufacturer couldn't get it to work. You know, I remember going to our board and saying, look, our key customer is not working and I'm not asking if we can spend more money. I'm telling you, we're going to have to spend more money. And and we're now extended over an ocean and a continent in an ocean and come to find out that dispensing process was off by a percentage 1 percent. And they would never have found that out. And it was only our team as chemists, engineers, software people. And so it's all those nitty gritty details. How to clean a part. You know, we print a part. It's got excess resin on it. Can't wash a part at scale with IPA. And we were doing that in the beginning. There's a lot of mixed waste.  So it's very atom efficient. But that also tells you that the design of the part is not only the design for performance as a running shoe or dental product, but it's also designed to be spun cleaned and its position on the platform was done. And this is a digital world. You've got control of every aspect of it. So you can optimize all the unit operations in manufacturing in ways that traditionally you don't think about. But an integrated approach was necessary. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, it's a real world application. Those little things that we don't think about in every part of the process that could be showstoppers sometimes. There's no learning curve. There's a doing curve. Interesting. So are we ready with any questions in the audience? Yes, Amy. Hi, Amy Herhold from ExxonMobil. A lot of the discussion is on the recyclability and so that you reduce the material use, which is really important. Curious about the energy intensity for 3D printing, especially with optical methods, is that a, I'm assuming the light energy and all the other processing is pretty small amount, you know, kind of not very energy intensive, but just kind of curious how that compares because that's also a key piece when you think about sustainability and not just the material recycling. Yeah, absolutely. I think that that type of energy inputs a really important question and you'll see huge ranges depending on the type of process that you're using, right? I just I went to Lawrence Livermore a little while ago and saw their metal printing and they're using giant 600-watt lasers, right? It's really cool. I think some of the advantages of some of the techniques we've been looking at is that we can achieve lower power resolution. So for example, that video that I showed was printed with four milliwatts of laser power, so basically less than a single laser pointer to do that 3D printing. But if you wanted to speed that up, right, that video was about a two hour print or so. And so now we're looking at opportunities to do a whole bunch of spots at once, which does mean more power. And so then you're probably looking at hundreds of milliwatts of laser power to do that type of process, which I think is a pretty normal range for these types of processing for sure. And I think building on that, the dual cure resin concept I mentioned where light is simply used to set the shape. These are low power applications. And then how do you get to a great material properties and this is part of our pre-court program is looking at other ways of setting the shape where only maybe 10%, 15% of the resin that's converted to a polymer on the printing process and the rest of it's sitting there late. And then how do you trigger that second stage reaction?  And so it's really taken advantage of the exotherm of polymerization to drive the conversion. So you start combining all these and all of a sudden you're into a very different, much lower energy situation. You know, the traditional way of making polymers is you run a reactor, you turn it to polymer and then you pelletize it. And then you're shipping the pellets all over the world and then you heat it back up into the melt, into injection molding, which is very energy intensive. Here we're crafting the polymer, or crafting the part while we make the polymer. They're coupled. It's fundamentally different than the way things are typically practiced. More questions? All right, I'll ask another. I'll give you some more time. Ah, ee. Boss, the answer. Boss has got a question. I can't ignore that one. I've been waiting. Well, first of all to share, one day I worked on campus. I noticed so many people look at me. I said, that's a rare treatment. And then one person come up to me and say, I like your shoes. I look at my shoes. I have Adidas right there with 3D printing, I think by carpet. There's only one kind. That's only one kind, very comfortable. So this is not for advertisement. This is a real user experience right there. But I cannot claim the credit yet from political institute. But I'm glad to see this is into the real product. So one question I have. Three of you presenting very exciting idea. I think looking forward what we should do. I also want to pick your brain about the damage we already made, the plastics everywhere. How do we deal with the plastic floating around? You must have thought a lot about this. It'll be good to see your thoughts. Well, since I'm the oldest one up here and probably helped contribute to that problem longer than the others have. It is a problem. And look, I actually think, and this is what's beautiful about Stanford. You could snap the chalk line today and say no more research and make a significant difference on this problem by changes in policy. There's some solutions out there. But this requires business models and policies to play a much larger role than currently has done. And in the fact that companies have no responsibility, I think in many ways that they can make products, they sell it. And now you see the leadership of a number of companies. I know Exxon's building an amazing plant to turn polyolefins back to oil precursors. I mean, it's cracking. They're great at that and they're building a large plant. And so it's that kind of leadership that has changed in a recent time to allow these things to happen. And I'm most excited about that. I think the failure of governments to do things and companies are now playing the role. Adidas, to your point, has a program called the Loop Shoe, where the outsole, the midsole, the upper and laces are all polyurethane. They believe in a polyurethane economy because polyurethane chemistry is reversible. And so I think it's company, and they have a mechanism for making shoes and collecting them at the storefront and get into new business models. And so I'm a big believer in industry leading these kinds of things, because there hasn't, and I think there's technologies out there that can make these things happen already. Yeah, I mean, I think building on that and we've all contributed to plastic. So it's not just a joke. I think that there's a lot of room, not just to recycle back to the monomer, which is what a lot of corporations seem to want right now, but to recycle back to some sort of polymer precursor that can be blended. I think one of the hardest things right now is multi-material plastics. You get these layered materials. Each layer has a different property, whether it's oxygen barrier, water barrier, things like that. And once you blend it all up, those properties don't add together. They actually get a lot worse in that blend. And so thinking about what are technologies that we can generate to address that issue, right? How do we turn these multi-layer materials into new layers that are still actually quite good, right? I think that's an area that we may wanna be focusing in. And let me just build upon that in another pivot to her point. I think there's over 200 different polymers used to make a car today at a 40 classes. And what's cool about light-based manufacturing is you can now bring geometry to the game, lattices, where now one polymer with an intrinsic set of mechanical properties can give you a family of properties by geometry. And now I think that gives you an opportunity to dramatically reduce the number of different polymers that allow a recycling to happen much more appropriately than it's hard to, Daniel's point, recycle so many different ones. But if you gotta use geometry, that one can allow you. And I think you could build a car out of six or eight different polymers instead of what's currently done by using geometry with different materials. And I think a key final point to all of this discussion is the cost of all of these processes, right? I think Bill Gates talks a lot about the green premium, right? If you don't come up, if your solution isn't cost effective, it's not going to be implemented, right? And so working really engaging with companies to look at can we do this fundamental technique? Like that's our job to figure out how to do this. But then how do we build that at a scalable level that it can be adapted, that it can be utilized in a way that's cost effective with current approaches is something that really we have to consider and something we've been increasingly thinking about building into the DNA of the design, right? Not starting with let's get it to work and then figure out how to make it cost effective and scalable, but actually approaching it from the start of saying how can we really take this idea and build that scalability into its DNA into the idea itself? Yeah, it's really cool, great discussion. Thank you so much for those interesting insights. I had a good question about the circularity of these polymers. I was wondering if the fact that they're circular does that impact the reliability of the product that you build using them? Yeah, I think that's really something that we want to carefully investigate, right? The goal for us is to make them as close to that final product as possible, right? And so the way that we've found to be most effective to do that is to utilize that polymer backbone, which provides a lot of support and then have these bondings that occur to give you that reversibility, right? So the discussion of sort of that pre-polymer allows us to get closer there. I think inevitably there will be some sacrifices in material performance, right? Just by the design of it. I don't think we can jump all the way back to just like a pure polymer. And so the vision would be that we're not targeting every application forever, right? We're not gonna probably want to print something that goes on the space shuttle, right? But if we're gonna print something that you're going to use as a fit test, for example, for prototyping that you print apart, you're like, oh, great, it fits or it doesn't fit. You can immediately recycle that and you'll be in good shape. So we're hoping to get to that level of sort of good enough, right? Where you can get a lot of the properties you really need to push forward. Yeah. Thank you. Great, thank you, great discussion. So I have a couple of more questions, but we can, oh, great, Jimmy. Yeah, fantastic. I was wondering, has there been any sort of technical economic analysis where compared to where you have 3D printing, maybe at a local site, which is very distant, as opposed to having something which is manufactured centrally, you know, halfway around the world and then they're gonna ship and all that. Has there been any sort of comparisons to the 3D prototype kind of printing and as manufacturing versus traditional ways of doing it and then shipping and inventory and all those other things? There have been a number of studies and, you know, I think COVID really reinforced for everybody the challenges of global supply chains. If you remember in the beginning, there was a shortage of nasopharyngeal test swaps. I didn't know what that was in the beginning. And the largest factory for making those was in Lombardi, Italy. And that was hit the hardest in the beginning of COVID. And the US Air Force was shipping, you know, the last pallets of swabs over to the US and the 3D printing community has a lot of printers in the dental industry and dental visits went to zero. And so there's a really interesting a business school case study where those dental printers got repositioned to make nasopharyngeal test swaps. In fact, we ran a clinical trial here at Stanford for her patients to show equivalency of a medical device. So there was an example of rescuing supply chains and the adaptability that a digital manufacturing process has that if you did molding, you can't adapt. And so this is where there's a lot of activity now thinking through what that means of local for local production, flexible factories, the ability to, there's nothing more important than keeping your factory running full stop, but having a blend of products that allows you to do that. Where it's hard, a lot of products are seasonal. Think about ski boots and sports equipment and how do you even that out? And so yeah, there's lots of opportunities for thinking through those and a huge advantage is of doing that. And let alone inventory, as I mentioned, there's billions of dollars in slow-moving inventory just waiting to be used. Just freeing up that capital has got a huge, imagine if you could free up that capital.  Great, so I'll ask one final question and I believe we've touched on this a little bit is what would you say, so for these 3D printing fields as a whole and maybe from each of your perspectives, it could be different. What's holding it back? Like what would you say is the top three things that you would like to see change in the world to see this grow to the degree that you think it could? Top three makes it hard. We've got to enumerate it. Pick. Just one. Pick that you're top, however many. I'll do that all the time, let's see. Okay, try three. You did three live, right? So I think, and we've touched on these already and I don't want to steal Joe's thunder at all, but I think the materials is really important, right? Getting the entire sort of flow of the process, oh man, I'm really stealing you, I'm realizing in real time, but getting that entire flow from design all the way to finished product in your hand, getting all of those details tightened down, not just the printing, and then I think the scalability and the sustainability of the technology, right? Especially with addressing some of these waste concerns. Those are the three that jumped in my mind immediately. Yeah, so I can't, I mean, there are so many challenges. I think the biggest one is really the flexibility of the materials and the accessibility of the materials, right? How do you create a resin that you can ship anywhere? It's not gonna cure from the heat during the shipping. It's gonna make it to its destination. It's going, and it will have the properties that you want. All right, so I think tuning all of those different parameters in a really robust deployable way is still really challenging. Yeah. Give you one example of a product. So think about Invisalign product. You know, that's a dental aligner. It starts with 3D printing a replica of teeth, and then you thermoform a clear sheet of plastic on top of that, cut it along the gum line, pop off the aligner, that's the product. That 3D printed replica of teeth is a thermoset. It's used for about 15 minutes to make the aligner. It's gonna be around for 10,000 years. That's dumb. And I think some of the resins you see here could convert that solid back to a liquid. It's probably gonna cost more. It's gonna cost more. It's easy not to do that. And so what is the driver for those kinds of things? Again, I think there's technologies out there, and this is the importance of Stanford and Precourt. You know, it's these policy decisions, these business models that have got to be coupled with technology to come up with these kinds of solutions. And so I'd point to that, since they said a lot of my answers earlier, I would throw the gauntlet over to the metal side. They've got to come up with some techniques like we have to go faster. Metal based 3D printing is something that I think is a really important area, but it still hasn't had a big breakthrough yet. And I think that's one that I would point to. Awesome, great. So we are right up at our time, I think. Or we have maybe, yeah, we have two minutes if anyone has a question. Otherwise, I think we should really thank our panel a great deal for this wonderful discussion. Thank you all for hanging out and being engaged. I'm glad I didn't miss this. I hope you feel the same. So thank you, Dan, Danielle, and Joe for being here and for the enlightening talks and discussion. Thank you all. Thank you.


After he spoke with the victim, she advised the trooper what had happened. That Mr. Holbrook came from the hillside and attempted to assault her demanding money. She gave a good description of who it was the trooper went to a residence where he was suspected to be and was able to locate Christopher Holbrook's hiding in a back bedroom.


What's up guys, Zarksen34 back with another video and this video I'm just going to be talking about what all went on with the Dark Dual Stories game. You guys saw the video two days ago, I opened it up and there was nothing in there and it just cut off. I didn't explain anything. It was just, I didn't get the promos, I was bummed and I posted the video. So I was out of town so I couldn't post this video the next day. Also we hit 25,000 so I promised 25,000 so we got to do that. So now today we can talk about the DDS game. First of all how did I acquire this game? That's the biggest question. I read some of the comments and I just couldn't read all the comments. It was too painful. It was either people telling me all the reasons I should have known it was resealed or they were saying sorry which was cool. I appreciate all you guys that were like sorry, you got scammed or just completely assuming that it was a scam or that the seller resealed it etc. Or trying to figure out who the seller was which I didn't want to happen. So in this video I'm going to tell you guys who the seller was, how I acquired it and how the scam happened. I'm not totally sure but we're going to just start off from the beginning. So I decided that I wanted a dark dual stories game like several months ago and there was one available and I was talking to my friend Sasiado on Ebay. So a lot of you guys had posted him below like oh Sasiado, hope it wasn't Sasiado. Okay Sasiado first of all did not reseal the game. I'm going to let you guys know that. So I was talking to him about getting the game and he had he had showed me the weight of this game when you weigh it was 3.06. I think that's what is that in grams ounces I don't know whatever the right measurement is. It was 3.06 and he was like well the seal looks really good and by the way a lot of you guys like that seal look terrible. This was a legit a legit HSEAM seal from a lot of people I've asked HSEAM is where it comes across. Those are very I've heard impossible to replicate or at least very difficult. So when it has that line coming across that is an HSEAM and those are usually completely legit. So we both saw that seal and we're like okay this thing looks really good. The only thing is the weight usually his other copy had like a 3.27 weight the difference of about 0.2 which could be cards. So he had told me that and I just didn't get the game at that time because I didn't have the money. It was it was the same price of $6,500. So I didn't get it. Then another friend of mine bought the game from him and he but he didn't pay it all up front. He had a kind of a payment plan with him. So he had agreed to pay $6,500. And so he started paying it off. You know this is a couple months ago. So about last week I think I decided you know what I kind of want to dark dual stories game like and I actually have the money this time last time I didn't have the money. So I I messaged a bunch of people that I knew had one and I asked my buddy and I said hey you want to get rid of that dark dual stories game. He hadn't even bought it yet. It was still in sassy out of possession. He had paid off $4,750. So he still had 1750 on it. And I was like you want to get rid of it. And he was like sure dude I was just getting it for some for some trade you know trade bait or whatever to trade to somebody and I was like really you don't want anything. So what happened was we I agreed with him that I would send him my guardian EATOS my PSA 10 that I just graded for a $2,500 value which I which I would value higher normally but because he was giving me the same deal he got on what he purchased. We agreed we could do a little bit lower on the EATOS. And then I agreed I would pay off the rest to sassy out on the guy from eBay. I would pay the 1750 that he owed. And then there would be a 2250 that I still owed the other guy who I gave the EATOS. So what happened was we all agreed on that trade. It was like a three person trade. That's why when all you guys were asking me did you get a refund it was complicated because there I could I didn't just pay 6500 and he refunded me 6500. It just didn't work like that because there were three different people involved. So we agreed on that I got the game. Obviously I recorded the mail video which was going to be just its own video. Then I decided you know what let's just open it up. Let's just see and make sure you know everything's good here and I'll post it later. You know I'm going to post the opening part later when I opened it there was nothing in there. So I'm like OK I guess I'll put it all in one video and we got to figure out what to do with this game. So I messaged sassy Otto because technically it wasn't from him. It was from my other friend who was sending it to me. But sassy Otto had originally had it. So we were trying to figure out if he knew who had resealed it or whatever. And then the other guy was going to want to refund too.  So he ended up agreeing to I think he gave me he said he would give me a credit because I usually get by the way every time I get a new release I get it from sassy Otto. So if you guys are interested in new release you guys always ask where do I get my cases. Where do I get all my new product. It's from sassy Otto every time. So I'm just telling you guys sassy Otto had nothing to do with this being resealed. He bought it from a different guy. So it could have been that guy could have been the guy before him. You know there's just you when when something is resealed if it was even resealed. The thing is there's been so many opinions. I'm not sure which but it was probably not him not the guy before him maybe not the guy before him. It could have been a guy like four times ago if that was a reseal because that reseal was super legit. I've had a lot of opinions say they don't think it was resealed. They think it was just a factory error because I got a message on eBay. A guy told me he bought five of these back in the day. He opened five of them and he only had he had four of them have promos the other one didn't. Then I had another guy tell me that he opened the different version of this game the one with the pink dragon and it had no foils. Think about that that that card is basically worthless. So why would someone reseal a game just to have the pink version. So that's a little bit like okay maybe there is the factory error. There's a couple of people who've experienced it. So it's possible it's a factory error. It's possible it was an advanced reseal. You know it could have been that but that FC looked really good to me. I don't know. So I don't know if it was or not but sassy Otto being the great seller is by the way. I don't want anyone to be slandering him because obviously he did not know about this. He agreed to give me a credit for future products of 1750. That's what I paid him. Me and the other guy undid our trade for the Eatos. He then sent that guy the two DDS cards that he had purchased or something like that. I don't even remember what their deal was but he basically took the almost the whole hit for this which is incredible and terrible for him. So I just I said look I know this isn't really a big deal but he said he gave me 1750. I just said just go ahead and give me a case of gold and then like it was like two cases of the of the December set with the collectors various and then I'll pay you off a little bit more so you don't have to take the full brunt and I also said look I want to shout you out on the channel so that people can buy your cases because this dude just took a six thousand five hundred dollar hit basically maybe like six thousand three hundred after I changed up my thing. So it took about a six thousand three hundred dollar hit which is just I mean that's tough guys so like you guys felt bad for me but he pretty much made me whole but he did not he is not he took the whole hit so he said he has a lot of gold cases maximum gold cases available so make sure you guys go check out his eBay I'm going to link it down below and go buy some gold cases if you need him he still has a lot available it would really help him out because he didn't resell this game and I'm not sure anybody did it's possible somebody did but the key to this video we don't know if it's a reseal you may think you know for sure a lot of you guys in the comments that you knew for sure you're telling me all these reasons that it was definitely resealed but once you see a video and you know it's a scam video you're looking for some reason for it to be a scam but otherwise you wouldn't have known I mean it's just no way to know so the important thing about this game if you're going to buy a darkstool story sealed game you need to weigh it it should weigh about 3.27 not 3.06 if it's around 3.06 you might not have the cards it's possible you could be missing like a booklet or something I don't know but there's a good chance you don't have the cards whether it's a factory error whether it's a reseal I'm not sure exactly I'm not an expert but you guys definitely need to weigh your games if you're going to buy it or if you have one in your possession make sure you this thing weighs the appropriate amount otherwise you might want to crack it and see it which is kind of a bummer because the the whole sealed game is the kind of the point or maybe you just want to keep it sealed because you just want it for the actual sealed aspect then just leave it sealed but when you when you sell or buy you need to be checking out what the weight is that's all I can really say for this video that's all I have that's what happened I am pretty much refunded so we're good here but sassy auto is not so I would appreciate it if you guys go check out his link down below for his eBay store go buy some of his maximum gold cases some of his other listings because he's out six over $6,000 which is a real bummer and I really appreciate him basically refunding me I mean either way it's just tough it's tough to stomach having to take that kind of a loss because he did he did tell me the weight ahead of time not but we both thought there's no way there's no way there's no cards in there you know because we hadn't heard of it at that point so make sure you guys go check him out I appreciate all you guys that do that that would be great that's it for this that's it for the dark dual stories you know drama I guess it wasn't really drama I was never really mad at him because I knew it wasn't on purpose because we've done so much business it's always been great so I thank you guys for watching tomorrow we're gonna be opening up 24 invasion of chaos packs maybe we'll pull something cool see you guys later peace dark bright


Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE! Covering Cisco Live Europe, brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. Hello everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in Barcelona, Spain of Cisco Live Europe, 2019, I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman and Dave Vellante here this week covering all the action in cloud, data center, multi-cloud, our next guest Jim Frey who's the vice president of strategic alliances at KenTek Technologies, groundbreaking report that came out of the Amazon re-invent conference with a lot of customers. Part of the multi-cloud discussion. Jim, great to see you, welcome to theCUBE. Thanks, it's Frey by the way. Frey, I'm sorry. No worries, no worries. Multi-cloud, your report has some interesting data. Talk about the survey, the results, what is it telling us? Yeah, we've been working hard at KenTek on extending our solution to start covering the cloud, multi-cloud server, hybrid environments. And so we were at the AWS re-invent show and we decided to take the opportunity to talk to some of the attendees and just sort of get their view of what some of the challenges are. So we talked to a little over 300 of them and we asked them a few questions, not a rigorous thing, you're doing it on the show floor, right? But we found some really interesting things out of that. So the first thing is, is that it really is a multi-cloud world already. And it more so even than hybrid. So we had nearly 60%, 58% of the people who we talked to had more than just one public cloud in play. They almost all had AWS, of course, because it was an AWS event, but not all of them, which is really interesting. But they either had AWS plus Google or plus Azure or plus some other cloud, more so than even hybrid. So we also asked, are you using AWS in conjunction with your own private data center or a third-party hosted Colo Center? Only 33% were doing that. So we were surprised. And the reason that's really significant is monitoring and management of these environments is much more complex in a, well, it's complex in a hybrid environment. It's even more complex in a multi-cloud environment. So it sounds like there's some real need for some help there. What are the challenges and, what are some of those complexities, what are the challenges in the monitoring? Well, so that was the next question. What's the key challenge? And usually, whenever you ask someone about the challenges, the number one answer is always, oh, security. That's my biggest concern. That did not turn out to be the case here. The biggest overriding concern across all the different sort of levels of people we talked to was actually cost management. And cost management is, it was a bit surprising, but usually you hear security, security, security and then something else. This was cost management, either number one or number two and number one for most of the constituencies. And in some of the subgroups, like VP level, SVP level, architect level, it was overwhelmingly the first choice. 40 and 50% of them are saying, yeah, cost control is our biggest issue. Even ahead of other things like performance, like visibility, like actual control of the environment. So cost was really the biggest concern. And that's a big issue. Jim, something we've been tracking, especially at shows like this, at the Cisco show is the challenges, I used to understand kind of the stuff that I had in my data center. I could get my arms around it. I might not love the management tools that I have. I might complain about some of the cost, but it's all very well-understand. It's bought mostly as a capex. Right, when you get to the public cloud, I totally understand what you're saying, multi-cloud, is now I've got all these different pieces and how well do I have them defined. There's different skill sets between them. And when it comes to cost, right, the big unknown is, oh, hey, am I getting surprised by what happens in that environment and across all of them? I mean, I've talked to plenty of companies that will dedicate an engineering resource just to manage cloud. Or I have many friends in the industry that are helping, you know, cost optimization is something that, you know, software consulting, there's huge business in that because we're still early in this, so we're getting to those steady states. Help us connect the dots. Where does Kentek play into this then? So you've talked to all these customers. Thank you. Our viewpoint is network, and we're trying to give a viewpoint of what's happening in this environment by watching the network. And that's always super valuable because it helps you localize where things are, what activity's happening, it helps you see which workloads are talking to which workloads. And that reveals sometimes things you don't expect. And this is where the cost control comes in because, you know, in the cloud environment, you have to pay for certain network traffic, especially between availability zones or when you're shipping out of the cloud back to your other, you know, your home environment. And we have talked to a lot of customers who've said, hey, end of the month comes around, I get my bill and there's this big number there for data transfer. I don't know what drove that. And why am I being surprised time and time again by this? Well, the network view point's really awesome for seeing that. And if you can do it with a monitoring system that's watching for that all the time, the good news is, is you can catch it, figure it out if it's real or not, need it or not, and fix it before 20 days later you get a big, fat bill. What is fixing it means? It means like keeping it contained in the cloud or on-prem or managing what's moving around. Could be combination of things. One of the things that we've seen in some of our early deployments are someone moved a workload into a different availability zone. Well, there was an application dependency that didn't recognize. And, you know, that workload was talking to, you know, a home data center or another availability zone and creating traffic across there and just running up the meter on the network costs. So if you can see that, and it becomes very obvious if you watch the traffic patterns, you can at least have someone go say, okay, that's a surprise. They had a big rise in my zone-to-zone traffic or my, you know, cloud-to-home traffic. Let's just take a look at who's driving that and whether or not it's something that should be or shouldn't be. One of the interesting trends we've been watching, obviously with cloud and hybrid cloud, is kind of the consumption and deployments of cloud. And hybrid's interesting because hybrid's about cloud operations on-premise, which has been slowest to deploy. Wikibon's done a lot of research on private cloud and why that's happening. But it seems that cloud sprawl on the public side has been there. So yeah, I got some Amazon, easy to stand up. Got some Azure and now Google. So it's probably easier to get stuff in the clouds. And then now they got a repurpose on-premise to kind of have this seamless cloud native environment, hence Cisco's announcements, et cetera, et cetera. So as that's happened, what have you guys learned and seen in terms of the customer behavior? They wake up, obviously the bills are higher. So it makes sense that multi-cloud is higher than on hybrid and the cost containment is a concern. How did they get there? What are you seeing? What's the psychology of the customer? Just share some insight into the customer behavior. Is it oh shoot, I got to unwind this? Do I double down? What's going on? I think it really depends a lot on what the projects are and what the objectives are and what the skill set is. But one of the things that we found in this survey is that that network viewpoint that helps you understand what's really happening in the production environment is often being underutilized or underappreciated in the cloud environments. In the cloud deployments and cloud infrastructure. So one of the things we asked about was how many of you folks at this event are actually taking advantage of, for instance, VPC flow logs, which can tell you exactly what's happening within AWS between availability zones. And it was surprising. They've been around, VPC flow logs have been around for years as a technology and as an additional service available. But only about a third of the respondents were actually using them. So they weren't taking advantage of this important insight and viewpoint telemetry set. About a third kind of knew about them but wasn't using them yet. And then another third didn't even know what they were. So I think there's still some maturity happening, some maturation happening in terms of understanding what can I do about this? How can I get ahead of this? What's at my disposal? So part of the challenge, of course, then, is I've got that piece covered. But as you said, now, how do I cover my home front? And where do I find some sort of tools that can be put these things together so I can see it all as one? And that's where you guys fit in. That's where we fit in. So let me get some anecdotes from you. One, it's clear that there's a pain point. Take the aspirin, understand what's going on. Contain the bills. Give a scenario of what they're doing to contain that you mentioned a few of them. But also give an example of where they're using the data to be proactive. So there's the vitamin inside of it. So vitamin, aspirin, whatever metaphor. So I got to contain my cause, I get that. How are people using the data to be more proactive in either architecting or deploying? So I think the, I don't know that anyone's being proactive yet. That is certainly the promise and the opportunity. Most organizations are simply want to be more aware of what happened or more effectively reactive and you start there. And once you start to realize, hey, I can't do this, then you can start turning towards being more proactive. So for instance, our solution was built to allow you to trigger corrective actions back to the environment. We don't take the actions where we can trigger the systems that would change configurations or change policy and inform those systems of what's happening and what sort of parameters can we recognize that indicate an issue. So we believe that, especially watching the change in patterns of activity, noticing the anomalies. Anomaly detection is oftentimes used around security use cases and we do that. But also it should be applied to operational use cases. When does a new workload pop up or a new volume of traffic show up that I didn't expect? And if it's something I recognize happens on a regular basis and I know the answer, let's automate the corrective response. So that's kind of our theory of provide you the understanding of what's happening then with the tools to trigger an automated corrective action. All right, so Jim, we're talking a lot about multi-cloud this week with Cisco. Of course, Cisco dominant in the networking space, really feeling out where they live in multi-cloud and how networking plays across all of them. What's the relationship between Kentik and Cisco? How does that work? Thanks, so we're a member of the CSPP program. We're a partner. We joined because we manage a lot of Cisco gear. So a lot of our customers have Cisco. A lot of our use cases historically have been at the edge of the network, in particular the service providers. So those that are delivering internet services are using the internet to reach their customers in some way. So what's really different about us is we do a really deep and detailed approach of integrating BGP path data and BGP route data and correlating that with the traffic, as well with other enhancements and augmentations to the data that give business and service context to the network traffic. Makes it more actionable. Yeah, and what are you doing in the container space? You mentioned edge computing. Got some interesting use cases. Maybe explain a little bit where you play there. So when I say edge, I'm talking about internet edge, not edge computing, although we're fascinated by what edge computing represents and the new challenges that's going to bring. Now when it comes to containers, actually we're very fascinated in working in that area too because, John, as you mentioned, moving and implementation of new cloud workloads is cloud native, using Kubernetes, using things like Istio. That changes the environment. So we've actually built a connector into Kubernetes so that we can use that to pull service information. In terms of what workloads, what containers are out there, what are they doing, what's their purpose. So when we show you an activity map of site to site communications, we can say, here are the actual services that are being, that are participating in this activity. Istio is another place we're really interested in to look at the service mesh that's being set up to run and operate communications between containers because that's a new sort of virtual cloud network. It's a way that these containers are communicating. And again, the more you understand about the communication patterns, the better you can recognize problems, the better you can balance and plan, the better you really get a handle on what's really happening. Jim, I want to get your thoughts since you brought up edge of the internet. Multi-cloud and hybrid cloud as data moves around certainly brings up the question of which routes the packets are moving around. There's always been debates about SLA's around direct connections versus go through the internet. It's China looking at it. So there's a security kind of concern. What's the trend that you're seeing with respect to say either direct connects. If I'm a company and I have multiple clouds, I have the connections in there, I'm concerned about latency certainly cost. Whether it's cat videos or whatever or applications, it still costs money. So latency's important. So each cloud has its own kind of latency issues. What have you seen? Well, getting to the cloud and then within the cloud. Yeah, exactly. So it's complicated. So this is a new dynamic, but it's similar concept. Is there standard latencies? Is it getting better? What's the trend look like? That's a great question. And I honestly don't have a good answer for you, but I recognize and agree that those are common concerns that we hear. And the best thing that at least for what Kentic is doing is to provide the means to measure and understand that. So you can compare what's working. You can document a baseline, your different options and your different paths and recognize when there's a real problem occurring. When you start to see licensees spike to any particular cloud service or location or zone, so that you can try to get on top of it and figure out what you can do. So it's a classic case of evolution. Get it instrumented. If the providers get better at what their service is, that's really out of your hands. It's not really. Okay, so getting back to the survey to kind of wrap things up. Interesting, it's at Amazon, the biggest cloud show. Azure pops up on the list as pretty high. Makes sense, Microsoft's got great performance. I mean, Azure's kind of like they move a lot of stuff into Azure, pre-existing Microsoft stuff, plus they're investing. What's the bottom line summary? As you kind of, you know, the aroma of the rapport. What is it, what's coming out of the rapport? What's the key insights that you glean out of this? So I think it indicates a normal pattern of adoption and sort of we're growing into this marketplace. It's evolving as we go. You know, we saw big early adoption happening in like lift and shift approaches to just move stuff into the cloud. Throw it in the cloud, it's going to be cheaper. It doesn't turn out to be cheaper. It can be. Then you've got another set of organizations that are born in the cloud, right? And they've started out from the beginning. But so those two early approaches are now merging into how do we really use this as a true strategic approach to IT? What are the real world complexities we're going to deal with? And how are we going to deal with those? It's really no different from the way that technology has evolved within the traditional data centers and why the way virtualization came in and changed the way we built and architected data centers. It's awesome, it's great. It saves you money in one area but then it created huge blind spots because you couldn't tell what was going on in those virtualization layers. So we had to adapt our operational monitoring and operational practices to accommodate the new technology. I think we're going through the same thing now with the cloud. People recognize that they don't necessarily want to be beholden to a single cloud provider. They want alternatives. They want cost, you know, competitiveness. They want redundancy. And so multi-cloud, I think, is becoming more and more real in part because people don't want to put all of their eggs in that one basket. And cost certainly looks good on paper at the beginning. But then, as you said, the side effects, the system, so these consequences, the system when you start growing or whatever. And that's where people just have to work it better, right? That's pretty much the operational. I mean, let's apply the same rigor that we used to apply to traditional data center environments and let's start embracing the cloud, right? So, Jim, you talked about the multi-cloud bit. Why don't you put a fine point on it? There's a reason why you jumped from being an analyst into the vendor world. Some people on the outside will be like, well, you know, cloud's been going on for 10 years. Seems we understand where this is going. But tell us why, you know, now is so important for this multi-cloud environment and the opportunity that you see at Kentic in the ecosystem. For Kentic in particular, what we're starting to hear very loud and clear amongst what our traditional and initial base of customers was facilities-based service providers and digital enterprises that managed big-routed networks and needed to understand and can better control their relationship with the internet and delivery across the internet. They're coming to us and saying, hey, look, we're splitting. We're adding cloud workloads. So we're moving our content that we're serving up into the cloud. You know, more and more of our systems are moving to the cloud. And we rely on you for this visibility in our production environment. We need you to add this. So we saw a demand from our customers to accommodate this. And in parallel, we're just really inspired by this next generation of cloud-native application development. It seems to be starting to reach that point where it's becoming reality and it's becoming mature and it's becoming a reliable approach to IT that now is the time to really get serious about bringing these other best practices from the traditional world and applying them there. And the survey data is great. It proves multi-cloud and hybrid all here. Costs can run out of control. You got to work, you got to operationalize cloud. And the same rigor, I love that. Great insight, Jim. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. Appreciate it. LiveCube coverage here in Barcelona for Cisco Live Year of 2019, it's theCUBE. Day three of three days of coverage. We'll be back with more after this short break.