Okay, welcome everybody to this session, this projects orientation session on the research impact and outcomes for the national data assets projects. So, our director, Adrian Burton, who's the director of data policy and services is going to take you through our requirements around research impact and how you can develop those in your projects. And after that, after his presentation, we'll have time for questions and discussion, but not a lot of it because we're going to finish on the half hour. The next slide please, Adrian, just want to acknowledge and celebrate the first Australians on whose traditional lands we meet and pay our respects to elders past and present. I'm in Brisbane, so it's the Turbull and Yagura peoples. I'm acknowledging that. So I will hand over to you, Adrian. We can't hear you. I think you're muted, Adrian. Oh, we lost him, right? I couldn't unmute whilst I was sharing. A custom to the Webex interface. We'll go back again. Yes. Great. Well, welcome everyone. We're talking to you about, ostensibly, the specific thing we're talking to about is a kind of policy and guideline that we have within the national data assets program. It's on research outcomes broadly. We'll start to use those words in a bit more of a defined way as we go through here. But it's a guideline that says that we're looking for the infrastructure to have actual research outcomes and broader impacts in the society. And that we're together we will plan how to do that. And together we'll plan and monitor those things and be able to report on them afterwards. That's the specific thing we're here to talk about. Probably today we will actually go back to just defining a bit more carefully what we're talking about when we say an outcome or an impact and why. Why we might be interested in those things and then we'll talk about the planning monitoring and reporting as far as this program is concerned. Natasha said that we think it would be a shorter presentation here. There is a longer time if you need to ask further questions. We won't cut it off necessarily, but this is meant to be a kickoff and an invitation to help us to design the application of these guidelines better. But that work will happen further down the track. All right. Most of you will know where an increased program and increases reviewed by the Australian government every few years. And the last time it was reviewed, there was an infrastructure roadmap published. And one of the things in that roadmap said that Australia's research infrastructure should support Australia's future. And you'll see here on the left, you've got the research infrastructure in the middle. And it's giving benefits to Australia's research institutions and world class universities as well as to industry. And then there's an arrow going out to the right with this idea that. That's not the end of it. You know, just universities using the infrastructure or even industry using the infrastructure is not the end point. The end point as far as success for the, whether the increased program is that there are some impacts in Australia's future food security or helpful. They're just example once then. So that's the reason why we have this guideline and policy within our program because we're inheriting it from the federal government program. We have a program logic for the, for the whole national data assets program that is a pretty standard program logic. It starts with the inputs and we're kind of past that stage here. We've been able to secure time resources, investments, people, pre existing data and all sorts of things from the ARDC and our partners. And they are the inputs to different projects within this program. The next stage will, will be, will, will head off and we've got our project plans and we're going to do a certain number of activities that we work packages that we activities. In general, to sort of simplify what's happening across all the projects in all the programs, the activity is to build a data infrastructure. Obviously building a better infrastructure is a much more complex thing than just just building a road in that there are quite important national standards and partnerships that need to be brought in to play for building a data infrastructure acknowledging all of that. That's the activity of the project that we create a new data infrastructure. The next step is the output step. So that is that there is something new and shiny that you can that can be used. Our program is really very progressive as far as infrastructure is concerned and it's based on this premise that data itself can be and is an infrastructure. If it's designed, if it's done properly, it can be an infrastructure in the sense that it can be an asset and it can support research into the future, multiple different types of unknown research into the future. So we're really talking in our program, we're talking about building up those assets. And by the end of the projects, you'll have a new or reinvigorated data asset that can be used for research. The outcome stage then is, okay, it's an asset. It can support leading end-of-edge research. Let's see that happening. That's the outcome stage that the data infrastructure is actually used by researchers or by industry and scientists in industry and governments around Australia. So that's the, we were talking about the logic of the program after the establishment and the almost the finishing of the establishment phase contracts that the next, the outcome that we're all doing it. The reason we're all doing it is so that we can support research. And then the impact from our point of view is that from that research. Really impact the activity happens even beyond research that the research is used to change policy to improve policy or to improve economic activity or to make positive changes to the environment. So that's our overall program logic for the program. And as you'll see, the outcomes and impacts are two thirds of what we're doing. That's why it's a really important. Part of the whole program logic. The astute amongst you will have noted that those really important parts can be sometimes 10 years in the making. And they happen well after the sort of contracted build stage of an infrastructure. But they are important because that's the whole reason we're doing it. You know, research infrastructure is there for the benefit, you know, the whole idea of everything is to realize a benefit. That's why we're doing this to do good. And the research infrastructure is there to benefit research and the research is there to benefit society. In program management speak, you've got this benefit realization concept where you build something like a hotel. But it's not really, you haven't realized the benefits just by building the hotel. You have to fill it with people. They have to have a good time. The company has to get money in response. So all those things are the benefits of having built a hotel and we hear that there are things in the places in the world where they're big cities, they're being built, but the benefits have not been realized from that. So that's not what we're looking for here. So that's another term that you'll hear in program management is this benefits realization. And it's about actually making sure that the outcomes and impacts actually happen. And if you're not convinced by all of that, well, we just have to do it anyway because increase requires us to report what, you know, those outcomes and impacts are. And so we have to ask you that the Australian government is doing it across the whole research sector. So the ARC has full on assessment programs for finding out what kind of research happens in Australia. That's ERA. And then they've just introduced a new program, the engagement and impact assessment that's already done around in Australia. So if you belong to a university or a research organization in Australia, your organization is already being asked these questions by the ARC that they've been providing research outcomes and impact narratives to the ARC already. This is part of a broader Australian government policy on the place of universities in our society and how they are meant to contribute to broader impact. And if that's not enough, the reporting blue there happened in 2015 actually changed the way that funding happens in Australia to really say that just doing a journal publication is not the way that you get money within the funding research system anymore. It's still there, but it's also on your engagement with society, with industry, with public policy. So that's already happened and those changes are percolating through our research sector right at the moment of changing money leaders. And then on the right there, that's something that's happening right now. In April the Australian government put out a consultation on university research commercialization that included translation and then commercialization and in general the relationship with Australian industry. They're thinking about a whole new scheme that some people have called a new MRFF that would provide specific funding for research translation and research business collaboration. And the MRFF at the moment is just as big as the whole MHMRC and ARC budgets combined. So if it goes in that direction, there will be a whole new funding scheme that really focuses on this kind of research translation and the impacts of research. So we have to do it and it's good in any case. So how do you do it well? We've had, the ARDC has had multiple sessions with the CSIRO that has a very good impact and evaluation sort of program. We've also had all our program managers sort of trained through different program logic things and we've tried to reflect that what good practice in this area is in our program guidelines. On the right there, we even did a big investigation that's been over three years looking at what is the pathway to impact that data and data infrastructure. What role does data and data infrastructure play on the pathway to impact? And if you're interested, there's quite a nice report that was done by Professor Mark Reid and Dr Eric Jensen. Analyzing that. And actually what they did was look at all those impact narratives that your universities provided to the ARC and the ones that were provided in the UK. And they did a well, Steve analysis of those impact narratives and identified a very considerable number that relied on data was the first thing. And then they also saw a saw that actually the kinds of impacts that would be reported for that in those ones that relied on data and data infrastructure. There was no other way to achieve that impact other than through this collaboration around data. We're trying to reflect what you care about and so that we'll be talking about and how can we start to monitor and report on those things. Adrian, we just lost you for a couple of minutes.  I ask him if you can just go back a sort of. Yeah. I'm going to talk to you. Lost them all together. Yeah. Just wait to see if you can come back in. Adrian, can you hear us? Okay. Just wait a minute and see if we can get back in. It might be worth messaging Adrian folks. Just in the chat. Yeah, I'm doing that now. Yeah. Probably still talking away. It's not outside of legal parameters. Adrian. Adrian, can you hear us? Yes. We lost you for about three minutes or more. Oh, can you hear me now? We lost, we can hear you now, but we lost your video and voice for quite some time. Just maybe go back to the last slide when you talked about the IMI report was about the last time we had you. Yeah. The end of that sort of conversation and anything from there on we lost. So if you're happy just go back to that one. And we couldn't tell you something because we didn't perhaps turn your video off just for the wall and see how we see if that helps. Except for this and if I was not sure how to do that last year. Down the bottom. Let me continue there if I've got my phone here Natasha if anything happens just give me a call. Okay, so I'm not sure what I said about the project on the right there the investigating the link between research data and impact. It was looking at the impact narratives that were recorded by all the Australian universities in that ARC evaluation program. It looked at the UK ones as well. And then it's identified these really important pathways that data and data infrastructure provide on the pathway to having an impact. I recommend you have a look at that as well. In any case, all of these things have now been, you know, the good practice that was suggested in all of those kind of studies are now reflected in our program and they're summed up on the dot points on the left there that it's important to plan for outcomes and impact early. It's important to include the end users and benefit realization actually in the project itself. And if you care about these things and you have to have a way of measuring. So that's what the activities look like within the program. We've asked you all to include research uses and beneficiaries in your project. So that should be already in play to have some kind of relationship with transition partners and to have an explicit plan. I think we're we've got that you're in that planning phase now that it'll be an explicit part of the project plan. The implementing and monitoring stage that will set up the ability to monitor usage of the infrastructure and order impacts at a later stage. And we're very keen as part of this to work with you all on building the community awareness of your infrastructure. Building community buying so that we know that the research community will be ready to go as soon as we open the curtains. And then there's a reporting phase as we noted there that's well after the, you know, the establishment project phase. And we apologize that that sort of means that there's kind of a reporting phase that's here in two years after the project finishes. But there's no other way to to measure that stuff could just have to give it time to to happen. And in fact, actually, you probably need 10 years to do that properly. And we may well look at ways of keeping in touch for longer. There is a spectrum of capability in this area. You know, the first thing is that, you know, possibly a level zero is that we don't know how researchers are using the infrastructure. It's not it's unmanaged and it's unknown. We'd like at least to get to that for the second dot point that at least the usage of the infrastructure by researchers is known and monitored. The second two dot points are aspirational will try to do as much as we can in those areas or as much as it is possible and work on those. So that's the fact that, okay, you know that researchers have used your infrastructure, but what publications did they do or what, you know, what programs were they involved in? It's harder to know, but we'll at least try to do some stuff in that area. And then the border impacts that were achieved by those researchers by those researchers are again a step away. If we don't set off in that direction and have it as a goal, we'll never measure it and we will. Whatever improvements we can make to those last two dot points will be for the betterment of everyone. I'll just skip over these. You must be aware of these. They're already in your program guidelines, etc. We've got, you've already put in applications where we all talked about what the impacts and what kind of research would be done with it. You're right now in the middle of doing your project plans that have a specific plan for research outcomes and border impact. And then after the projects, we've got that 12 to 24 months thing. That's the number that there's nothing more specific than that. We want to work with you to get the most weekend out of all of these, those things, but that's the bear bones of the requirements there. And if you've opted in for that 5% extra, that's to create some work packages to make some changes in the systems that would allow you to track and monitor those kind of things. And if you're doing that, then these are the kinds of things that are in scope there. Identifiers that might allow you to scope that change to track the usage. There's a whole set of things that are there already in your thing. I'm happy to discuss some of those. I think that's all except to say that through this guideline and the policy and how it's instantiated in the program. We're just setting a strategic flag that says this is what we would like to be able to do with you would like to help you. Monitor and check the research usage in the broader outcomes for your own benefits and we want to do it for our increased program benefits. It's a great thing to be able to work with you on. We don't have all the answers yet. That's not quite so sure what this practice is in all these areas. We've not even quite so sure what you would think a good reporting requirement might be for those 12 and 24 month reports. We're happy to work on those with you. So we've been busy setting up a working. A working group that would sort of be a co-design and committed practice for sharing amongst the projects and doing the best possible things we can in this area. That would all from me. I apologize for the middle part of it was a mystery and I hope we didn't lose too many people with probably my daughter watching some kind of video on the internet. Okay, thanks very much, Adrian. We have about five minutes more of Adrian's time for he has to go. And then I've just been reminded that Adele Koot who's our marketing and communications manager will give a short, very brief talk on acknowledging the ARDC and the way that you can do that in your projects. So are there are there any questions I can't see any in the chat currently and I cannot see everybody on screen. So if you have one, that's a bit better. Now I can see people would anyone like to ask a question or make a comment or raise any concerns or anything in regard to what they've heard. I'll just make a quick comment. Adrian, that's that's really good. I'm glad that you're putting together this activity, you know, that we can sort of track. It's a very difficult here as we all know. So, you know, just looking forward to seeing what we can all bring bring to this and work out what best practices around it. So it's all good. Good. Thanks. We're hoping look, we're doing because it's aligned with the whole increase program and with. Okay, Adrian, I don't know if we've lost you yet. There's a question from Daniel and then Steve, I think Daniel, do you want to go first? Yes, thank you. Thank you, Adrian and everyone. So my question was about researchers accessing data products and I saw in some of the associated material that came about tracking usage that ideally we would have researchers registering to access the data. Our tendency would be to make some of our data products open source available without registration. And I was just wondering whether this requirement of register to use the data was essential or whether you're happy to have data products being entirely open. It's a very good question, Daniel. And look, I have been working with projects to make the data totally open for years. And however, we also have this requirement to keep in track of, you know, how how the structures being used. So, that's, that's why we've left this open as a kind of an objective and we'd happy to work with each of the projects to see how the best way of doing that is. We would probably say that we might have to compromise on a little bit on both of those. You may not be able to get a very specific registration for every user. But we may not be able to, you know, if this impact and outcome is part of what societal expectation is on us, then we may not be able to just have to click here and have the data in your box. I have seen some pretty good examples of infrastructure that has a very light weight to, by the way, if you're using our data, what are you using it for and what can you give us a contact. So that's hopefully what we might be able to do through that working group is try and share some of those the ways of doing this. So it's because what we really have here is an objective everyone's on board. Now, what are the right ways of doing that so that it doesn't disrupt our activity and cause expense and delay and all of that. How can we get this in some really efficient ways. Yes, so thanks for that. And I understand the desire to find out who's using the data and how can I just make one for the comment about it. Yeah, sure. Go ahead. Yeah, so I mean, I'm quite passionate about reproducible research and I appreciate that in a lot of areas and say medical research. This isn't possible because the data simply can't be shared. But there's also a societal push to make research reproducible wherever possible. So for example, I tend to make the code and analyzing data, regenerating all the figures and things like that available where I can. And so if we go down this path of requiring registration to access data, it actually sort of makes that whole process a lot harder. And so I just note that as a conflicting societal demand, it's also being pushed. And I would say goes against the one to track access to data. Yes, and I see we've got some comments here about API access that's very difficult to manage as well. But sometimes you can. Anyway, I agree. There are two objectives here that are both being given to us that they can't, neither of them can be at zero. And I think the art of what we're going to try and do here is to find the ways of doing this that are both acceptable and practical and don't compromise on the open science agenda. Sounds great. Adrian, we have a couple more people who would like to ask question and we're on the half hour. Should we capture those questions and get them to you by email to then share with your answer with everyone. And how would you like to do the invitation to join the working group would be send that via the email as well and look for volunteers. I think so. I'm happy to work with you and the program managers are the best way of getting that kind of working group up and running. If there's a yes, and if there's further questions, look, this is just we could be discussing this and that's the idea of setting up the working group is to actually discuss how to do this. And so I'm happy to take a few questions if there's a minute or two to go and then. Okay, great. Thank you. Steve had the first question and then Martin. Yeah, I'll make a quick comment on the previous comment. The reproducibility and the accessibility questions are not necessarily in conflict. There are ways of doing this that you can deal with. So I think that's a good thing for the working group to discuss. That wasn't that wasn't my question. So so I'm a social science medical research. You know, we've been working on how to how to deal with the exact conflict you're talking about. So be good to talk about that. My question is applying this to the platforms projects. Are you looking at extending this out from the beyond the data projects? What it was is that. In spirit. Yes, the DC has a has a. Commitment to impact and. Outcomes facilitation. We just we've only made a specific sort of guideline and because I, well, just priorities, we thought this was very, very important for this program. So it's not formally extended to the platforms program. They don't have the same kind of guideline that we have and they didn't set up there in the same way. However, it's one organization and it's the DC that's committed to some of the outcomes and impacts. So. In spirit. Yes, but in form in absolute precise form. And we do have a number of platforms that are actually aligned with with. That's your data assets projects as well. Great. Martin over to you. Sorry, some experience. It's been getting easier to acknowledge funding from the ARC or NHM RC when publishing paper or. In a database or as a note, I mean, might be easier if. Encrase could be recognized in the same way as. And. And it can just be a pull down menu making it much easier. To acknowledge that you've been supported. Just wondering if there's any. Any kind of thing we can do to help that along. Yes, there's a lot of activity and this is not in the 5 minute. We can't cover all of that. There's a lot of activity happening in the background around what does it mean to. Keep an eye out how to track. Inputs into research and. Unders all sorts of things. A lot of it relies on global information systems to do with publishers and grant applications, etc. And they are using increasingly identifies for all of those things. So there's an identifier for the funder and there's an identifier for the publication and for the sample and for the data set. So that's part of why we would be encouraging that. And yes, it would be great to have identifiers for the instruments or for the facilities or for the increases of program.  And specifically, we should talk about in this working group now some work that's happening with Crossref and the publishers about capturing references to data sets in publications. There's been some really quite fundamental work done over the last three or four years and I think our program has a way of interfacing with that and we have a very strong relationship with that program. So I think we almost be able to do a test case with these projects. Great. Thank you. There's a comment there from Steve if you want to read it around reproducible research and restricted data. Just referencing Ivan Hanigan's work on that. I think that's all the questions I have unless you wanted to add more on the API question that was asked. Or is that something we'll unpack more in the working group tracking does tracking and monitoring data. Access using API's include monitoring data access using API's. Some of our facilities would, all of their data access would happen through API. So we have to at least look at it and see how what can be done in those areas. Okay, great. Thanks for the question Marco. Okay, so we will leave it there with Adrian and we will hand over to Adele to talk about acknowledgement guidelines. And thanks Adrian and I will follow up with the next steps for the working group. I know there's a lot of work to that people are doing on this to be shared because we all have very similar challenges of how to demonstrate, you know, the impact of the investment that we're making. So I think it will be beneficial. No, not just to the ARDC, but to all the partners involved in our co-investment projects. And I know there's some really good thinking going on in the cadre project around that too. So hoping Steve will be able to share that with us through the working group as well.


environment really wanted to be here last year but I had been in the due diligence process for over three and a half years and you don't learn a lot through success but you do learn so much from failure and fail often and fail forwards has always been a philosophy to create this resilience of of us as an industry when I acquired float brothers it was such a big engine and entity for the industry I remember talking with with Chris Herne the brother that was there the majority of the time because the other brother was was outsourcing and doing the marketing and he goes it takes a certain personality it takes a certain dynamic to operate a float center to to go into this industry because as I was talking to Beth earlier there's so much that we're advertising there's so much that we're talking about is how do we find the right demographics to talk to correctly is it pain management is it preventative you know injuries and sports talk with the superior team to know that one-third or almost one-half of professional sports teams now have float pods is such a great marketing tool for all of us to continue to use and and being at this conference and and going through the steps of of what are the successes what are the wins and we now have a new chapter of hyper resilience we we got to feel off of the energy of what's working for other float centers you know when when all the the rising tides I like that that marketing brand that we can all float ships together as we continue to figure out what works because the messaging is clear of what we're offering it's amazing but if the message can't get through the algorithms and you can't get people in on new client acquisitions then it becomes so difficult so understanding the consumer understanding the personality and then spinning back and looking and doing and checks and balances that it it was a lot for these guys in January 29th 2016 open and for any centers that have been open for a very long time I think that is a great time to to build a center December 19th 2019 happens to be the day that I acquired float brothers so one of the biggest challenges that I had is I was going up against a landlord that has so much assets they vetted my process they made me put six months of a security deposit down they that should have killed the deal three other things should have killed the deal but instead the silver linings and finding that positivity and that resilience is that I had 90 days before a global shutdown to relocate to a new city to buy and acquire float brothers and luckily my six month security deposit was marketing money that if I would have put into the market at that time would have been a waste you know it will so so in these hyper resilient times of of being creative of bouncing off walls what's working what's not and it could be the best message in the world but if it doesn't get through and you can't target it and it's not timed to the right way the the sun sets on the certain seasonality of the business it's it's tough and I think January 29 2016 is a great time to build a center I think December 19 2019 is a great time to buy a center and a better time to do either one of those things is today there are so many resources here for me as an owner to take over a big entity understand this business and vet the process of our consumers of what we have to offer that it's amazing the sky is the limit to getting people in the pods and and I think that's the biggest thing that I want to talk about is is the process of getting a new center because every time we're focused on something else we're focused on a pump that's gone out we're focused on an employee the timing of the hallmark of our business the nature of our business is you know Mother's Day and Father's Day and and Christmas and the seasonality is huge and the sustainability is is one of the biggest parts is how do we continue to protect the burnout how do we set the boundaries so that we have the energy to delegate to our team so we can show up to our best selves one thing about my market is that it is hyper seasonal so in in talking there's there's a lot of a lot of pluses and minuses to four million tourists coming each year but if but if you advertise too much to the tourists because traffic patterns and migrations are the locals don't want to come so how do we find the balance of supporting to the locals when they don't want to come during the summer and the summer is so expensive to be able to market to the tourists the thing that I can feel the most from being six years in business in the last two of what what I've done is that there's a tipping point to all things there's an apex and and being here and finally interacting with everyone is where is that apex from 1993 Peter has done 310,000 floats in the UK I've done 20,000 and those numbers mean that yes there's a novelty phase there's a six month one year startup a lot of people a lot of traction but on year six when my center's full 60 70% full most most days that's that apex and that tipping point that if you have the right ingredients and the right team and resources like we all have in this room let me tell you my failures let me tell you what didn't work for me and let me learn from you guys because it's about creativity it's about getting through the algorithms and it's about what engine to hit at the right time I lack an email marketing that's that's a weak point for me and I have a 9,000 person email database so I don't want to over advertise to those people but how do I get the right messaging out to to time it that I can't send an email out during the summer because the summer has so much traffic and I don't want to consistently be selling so that balance of information and education one of the biggest things I have to say is that we have to get people into the centers you know because without a first experience or new client acquisition they're not going to get back to that next experience so what is it that we are selling is is floating a vitamin for preventative health or is it an aspirin once your back's already hurt and the thing that I I want to put a spin on is however we need to get people into our centers there's an entertainment aspect to it I have a four pod center I have no other modalities so it's funny when when one couple will come and they'll be on a date and as they watch the video and get in another couple will come in and it's almost like a double date and if you know more females drag their their male counterpart to float let's have it be entertainment let's accept that it's entertainment to try something new and then once we get them in to do to be entertained on something odd and new and unique then then the education begins and as there's so much information coming at everybody that that education we can't overwhelm them it's stepping stones you know nobody needs to know on the first float don't ping pong off the walls you know that's that's float to float three pat dry your face before you get in less less chance of of irritation so a few numbers here thank you to float helm which just helps my life be much easier and more organized and and talking about wheel houses and delegation I only have 11 minutes to go so I'm gonna I'm gonna keep it keep it on target but what this shows is half of the time half of the people are coming back again so the volume of about my lowest was last year 143 floats 60 minutes and 70 90 minute floats and then we've had a big April and these are these are my numbers a big part of my of what I inherited being in a in a big military population is they set up a program that Tuesday Thursdays and Sundays we give free floats away to any veteran that has PTSD and we've got 250 members that have come through our center and we've got about seven to ten that have anywhere from 80 to 110 floats in five years we don't want anything back we just want them to have a lighter life a lighter load because they put their selves on the line and now they've got consequences for their life that they have to deal with so as part of a responsibility of a float center owner is that a big part of the altruism and giving back is is part of part of my model you know being that I've got four pods and I want these pods to be used is is part of my what I inherited was that that PTSD program and that education that's part of my demographic coming up on Wednesday I'm gonna have my fourth expecting mother's float free day my center has opened six days a week 12 hours a day and Wednesdays were closed for maintenance and filter cleaning and all that but what I've turned Wednesday into is what I call an opportunity day where any group any demographic that can come we can use that day as a unique opportunity to see what the science is between pregnancy and floating I've got articles that have been written that everything is split test everything is a B testing and when six months eight months later you're able to get somebody that says hey thanks I just came in and bought this float I floated when I was pregnant eight months ago and I got these great benefits but I got an education because you open your doors on a day you are closed and you gave away 24 free floats to expecting mothers and and when when pregnant mothers come in the simple things of of we want to encourage more mothers to float right so we all know we're doing deep discounts on different timing but but a great thing is that anybody that is an expecting mother that comes in and buys a float let's give the the child that's go you know and the encouragement of the mother let's give them a free float so that mother can come back and it's less about the economics and more about the execution and that's the biggest part too about the float business is we have to execute and we have to pivot and we have to keep executing and pivoting because maybe it's the best message in the world but if it doesn't get through the algorithms it doesn't work and if it's not set to the right time that's another factor so I need help and resources from this room and I want people to call me and reach out to me on what works and what doesn't I want everyone to know the content for float brothers that that we are using I want to be shared and and everyone to continue to grow together because this industry is really about the entertainment aspect to get people in the pods and it's the education aspect to retain them and get them back in for their next floats Beth thank you for touching on the vision aspect why to get into this business it's not going to be easy it's going to be extremely hard but you know we all want to help people and that's that's a big part of it but as we help ourselves and float once a week I got my start in understanding floating because ten years earlier I was introduced to sweat lodges and I spent a lot of time in the Anipi I have first of all can I get a show of hands of anyone who's ever been in a sweat lodge or an Anipi great group great great demographic so think about what the sweat lodge does in retrospect to the float pod I've been doing this for so long and and this lasts about a month you know you go into a sweat lodge and you just come to nothing you're just trying to breathe and completely reset but you're able to take a month or two weeks and use the sweat lodge and that experience of purging your bloodstream to not be so stressed about other things so when I was introduced to the float business I was like the float pod is very similar to a sweat lodge but easier for people to try it because the sweat lodge is a very unique tool that not a lot of people are willing to try and if you think trying to educate people on what floating is try to get people to go into a sweat lodge and it's a whole another experience of you know what does that mean and finding that finding that vision and finding that why and that motivating factor of of what you can deliver as a human what boundaries you can set what longevity you have to to not burn out and to know that you are showing up as your best self is that as we read and recognize different clients each person is going to need a different part of us and our tone and our timing and staying positive enough to have the right tone and the right openness and the right body language to receive what they're saying I mean I'd say once a week I'm almost like moved to move to tears at some of the stories and some of the feelings on on the front side before people float and then as they come out we all get this amazing reward from benefits of the faces of people that have floated we've all gone through and been in this deep REM state of why this works of why to get into this industry and as Beth being an encourager and me being a promoter and finding these tools of this room to to motivate others and protect others from burning out it's so much potential and so much so much vision behind it that you know the content creation side the 20,000 customers the algorithms of different different towns and and trying to push in the timing you know this is one of my favorite slides that my team created and you didn't come this far to only come this far we all know that the pod is a reflection of ourselves every time that we float is another moment to get more self-esteem to get more encouraging aspects because floating is a benefit in itself by the pure energy boost I work with VJ the float guru with for quite some time great great person great great knowledge and for him to help break down what time of day and what day of week and what personality and what should we be searching for in our floats we can set these intentions is creating the power that when people come in and they're so flustered and they don't and they just want to collapse and they're late and all this stuff and you say okay you're not ready to float yet we need three more minutes for you to decompress we've got the nature channel here we've got a pandrum here would you like to do a connect the dots or a coloring book because if we can spend that five ten minutes in the lobby interacting to not feel rushed or hurried then we can maximize and not burn that time out inside of the pod this is one of the most powerful slides of what we're doing in this business is that we're taking the mindset of the physical realm and we are lifting people's spirits in water of of here's your limitations here's here's life's circumstances is the chair what are you going to do about it you know let's not let that define you let's take all of our all of our pent up fears and stress and anger and and entitlement or whatever anybody's going through and let's bring these things to the pod let's make help available so that we've got the resources that we can offset this 24-7 news cycle I'm addicted to technology just as much as the rest of everyone so it's it's finding what can elevate you elevate others around you and the author Malcolm Gladwell puts it really well in in tipping point or one of his books he says it takes ten thousand hours to become an expert or to even start to know about a topic I'm four thousand hours in and I don't know much you know the one thing I the one thing a professor told me is that the purpose of of education and college and higher learning is the process of learning how to learn or or unlearn or relearn and the four thousand hours behind the counter I came into this business understanding demographics understanding marketing putting my tools in my wheelhouse together and and seeing this pod as something that is helping to rewrite people's lives people's maps and and my own story as well I float two to three times a week I actually sleep in my center probably four times a month skateboard there I live five blocks away and I skateboard there to 2 a.m. in the morning and I will sleep in the pod till seven eight in the morning and I won't sleep I won't sleep on land that day and what I can tell you from those longer floats and from from high pressure stress and from putting myself in an environment is that I am able to come out and add more time to the quality and the value of letting the body reset and letting the mind go and adding more self-esteem to my life as well as reframing the next steps and the next processes so as business owners and as as float entrepreneurs the value that you can use in the pod to project the the next step I my staff I I encourage them to float that I I give them their hourly rate to float so not only do they float for free but they they get paid to float and and that's the encouraging aspect of what do we got to do to get the people trained correctly to not sweat the small stuff to not burn out but to let this industry lift up and connect to other aspects of of life and dynamics and business is there's so much room for education and getting past that entertainment level of we are so important to this community to this world to this movement right now that don't burn out take the energy take the motivation take all the resources here and let your light shine bright get your float centers to the point where everything is working in in synergy and and passing that apex in the tipping point let me tell you my wins let me tell you my losses I want to hear what's working for you and I want to share what's working with me and I want to educate and lift up everybody and we got to have some entertainment and some funny stories so thank you guys so much for your time


everybody. Again, we start this evening with our note that you see on screen. And with that, let us dive in. Obviously, and some of this may be new for folks, some of this may be new for maybe a review, but it bears repeating that churches need to be mindful of copyright law whenever your community is gathered either in person, digitally, or both. So any material that is not an original creation of the church, this is a material that has not been composed by your organized choir director or someone on your staff, music, imagery, liturgies, poems, if it's not been composed in your local church, it may be subject to copyright. And as we approach copyright this evening, we approach copyright as a justice issue, because copyright ensures that writers and composers are properly compensated for their work. So in your mind's eye, you may harken back to a more simpler time when you had a church, you had a music program, and you had everyone with a hymnal. Unfortunately, today's licensing requirements exceed the usage model that had been in place for the past 100 years, where each worshiper held a copy of a hymnal, which gave the local church rights to perform and sing a section of music contained in the hymnal. So with that in mind, we have to review on like what is a copyrighted work and how the church has got from, how the church progressed from that method, where if you had a copy of the hymnal or the copy of the book of worship, that you were okay. So again, to use a copyrighted work that will be reprinted, and that means like taking that hymnal if you didn't have enough copies, and you needed to make an extra copy. This even goes for choir directors if they had, if they were short one copy for a soprano, say, and you needed to reprint that. Or now, in this day and age, in the time we find ourselves hymn, you need to broadcast that. You must either obtain written permission from the copyright holder, or obtain a license through a licensing administrator or provider. Now these providers offer pre-packaged licensing plans or bundles, as one license would call them, for a variety of license scenarios on behalf of publishers and artists. So the idea here is that the church pays the licensing provider, and the provider pays the writers, the composers, and the artists. So let's say it's an exchange of rights, it's an exchange of responsibility, and it also makes sure in all of that that the artists get paid for what they create as creators. So we're going to switch screens here again, and we're going to look at the types of licensing types that we have when it comes to licensing providers. Now the first one that is presented is print and reprint. The print and reprint is the most common and familiar to church, pastors, musicians, organists, and choir directors. I've mentioned this before. This, this license grants permission to reprint lyrics from the hymnals and scores to be used in worship guides and bulletins. So when the church migrated from solely relying on a hymnal, and churches began to create worship guides and worship bulletins, that's when this license became important, and that's if you ask most church secretaries, church musicians, this is the one that's most common. The next one, mechanical license, is the license that allows a piece of music to be used in audio form when a choir makes a recording of a concert and offers it as a CD or, or now even as a digital download, so you're required to have a mechanical license to do that. Another type is video synchronization, and the video synchronization license allows a portion of a song, like a backtrack, a back recording, to be added to a video in your worship service. And then the performance license is a type of license that allows for, you know, as it implies, it is a performance for the public performance of a piece of music. And then we get to, we kind of catch up here, then we have the light streaming and podcasting license, and the live streaming and podcasting license is a combination of a print and reprint mechanical and performance license. So it adds, it takes the building blocks of those other licenses that we're showing on the previous pages, and it utilizes them in a way that it keeps the license model affordable for churches and allows, again, the, the transition of license authority from the, and copy and hold copyright from the artist to the church.  So you wonder, so you wonder, like, how does, you know, you may have heard some of these places that I will mention, the license providers, one license, CCLI, how did they, how do they get to do what they get to do? And what they do is they hold a master license in which they can take and divide subsections off to offer services to the church. So so again, and here we come to licensing providers. We mentioned these already. One of them, the one of the largest is one license. Now one license is a is a provider that will fit sort of squarely on the offerings that are made in the pilgrim, in pilgrim press and the new century hymnal. Not all of the selections that are found in either of the, either of our hymnals are all are all covered. So you will have to go and do a search. As you can see there on the screen, there is a place to search. And make sure that the work that you are planning to, you know, perform during the course of your season or worship service is included in by that provider. Depending on what type of music that you perform in your church, you may also benefit from CCLI, which is has a broader catalog and includes music that is published by BMI. So in that case, a CCL license may be beneficial to you, as well would be CCS or Christian Copyright Solutions. So those those three, the Christian Copyright Solutions, CCLI or Christian Copyright Licensing International, or one license, those are the three main license providers. So so with that in mind, let me come back to my and switch gears. Um, so again, I can't stress enough the if you it's you need to check with the provider the list of songs that you're going to perform for a given season. If they are not listed in any of those providers in some churches that I know, at least the couple that I know in Western Massachusetts in the official tradition have all three. And if they're not in any of those three, then you have to contact the publisher or the artist directly to get copyright permission. So I can't stress that enough. Just holding the license, just to say okay, we purchased one license, we purchased the, you know, the base license. And because we're live streaming, we also purchased what they would call the live stream or stream and podcasting bundle, which is a bundle of the base license, which allows you to take the lyrics that you wouldn't find and not only just, you know, harkening back to our previous point I made several minutes ago, not just to have those, not to duplicate what you see in your for a bulletin, but when you have a I know for a fact when you have a subscription with one license, and you all your music is covered, what you what the light the with the base license allows you to do when I check this with one license.  So this makes, and there's a way to do that with with certain equipment where you can push those lyrics up to your live stream, which makes it easier for people to be together, gathered in worship digitally, they don't have to have a bulletin.  So the fee structure for one license and CC li is based on your community's average weekly attendance or your ASI. So the, and we'll get to how do you like how do you track that weekly attendance? It's, you know, in a digital in a digital world that we find ourselves and it's not easy, but there is a way to do it. Know that, you know, if you think that you're and they'll give different like, you know, for like 100, I'm just making an example, but they'll say from, you know, or the church that has from from zero to 100 people in worship, that's one, you know, that's one tier. And then from 100 to so on is another tier. If you find that you're between the tier, it's always to go is always to good practice to go up. I don't know if you can regulate that.  Remember that it's, it's attendance taken over a broad period of time. So, so again, most of the content found in the new century and pilgrim himnals are, are covered by a one license annual license. But again, you have, you have to check. So the, the next next conversation is one that's important. And that important in that conversation is surrounds reporting both one license and CCLI require you to report on a monthly basis. Those selections that you used during your worship services for that month, it is through your reporting that one license and CCLI can then pay the artists. So again, it's not enough just to have the license and then it's not enough just to, you know, not check to see if the, that the particular piece that you're going to play is included in their database or not, but you also have to report monthly. So that make that forms the bridge that completes it without you reporting. Then there's no way for the artist to get paid. I think there was at one point if I'm not mistaken that CCLI, you didn't have to report, but I think now, now you do, you do have to report. So let me switch back again here from slide view and go to another things that are unique to worshipping in worshipping digitally. And the first is determining what attendance you record on a Sunday by Sunday basis when you offer digital worship. Now, when folks, when you're in hybrid worship, it sort of makes it a little easier because you count the amount of folks that you have in the sanctuary and then you add to those the numbers that you have online. However, like how do you track that? How do you come up with that number? And when we first went into lockdown our way back in, in March, I wonder like how, you know, I kind of kind of scoured YouTube videos after YouTube videos. And I, you know, trying to find an answer of how to do that. And the best way that our church, St. Mark's church in East Long Island found a way to do is to have our cameras positioned near us or it doesn't have to be the pastor doing this, but it could be one of the, one of the folks on the, on the, on the digital team to have the, just take note of what that number is. You'll see it there in the picture right next to the live button. In this case, it's 53. And what I do, our practice at St. Mark's is to take the peak of that and people will, as we all know, there will be times when you'll see people joining and leaving your worship at various times during the actual worship service. And in the digital, in the digital church, that is, that's typical because the, the barrier for entry and the barrier for exit is a lot lower than it is if you have to walk in and out of a church building. But we generally take that highest the number for that platform and what you're looking there on the left side of the screen is a screenshot of Facebook. We use that right at our pray dues at our prayer desks at St. Mark's because we also use that, our devices to interact like we are interacting, we will be interacting tonight through chat and through video, but we use the chat portion of Facebook to take prayer requests and to report. So, so that, so we're, we're always looking at that in fact, for me, it could be a distraction, but so that's my best way of saying, you know, what you could the best way to do that. And when you take that number, so in our case, we have an example here, we usually have about 53 with that that's, you know, we're shipping with us on on Facebook, we'll have about 10 to 12 on YouTube. That's just how our stats on on that work. We'll add those together and we'll and we'll multiply by 1.5 to allow people who are in worship as a family to count them. So there's no real way that we can we can capture that and we kind of know by who's online, given the comments that we're getting in the comment train in the comment stream of who's online.  So we, we, we, you kind of got to know the, you know, you're the folks who are online. But as digital as we also found that as digital goes, as we progress in this journey together, you will start to find, especially as the numbers are increasing as they are, people will start worshiping with you digitally more and more. And some of the folks that you may see on your who are asking for prayers, if you're, you know, if you're interacting like that, you know, in that way on Facebook, you may not know who they are. So know that, you know, you know, at 1.5 is is kind of a general way that we're doing that. If I hear of another way of another metric, and I'm always watching metrics for on Facebook, because I like to use the live number that we're seeing again, our example is 53, because it wants the worship service, the live worship service is over. And let's say your worship service happens to be on 10am on Sunday morning. And now you are on now Wednesday. And now you're seeing 200 300 worshipers. Remember with Facebook, those could be as little as five second views, which doesn't really help when you're trying to determine how many people were on, you know, who attended your worship service. YouTube is a little better. YouTube is will provide a because I'm from New Jersey, I need to I need to talk with my hands here. So YouTube will give you an analytics graph that will allow you to know that what part of the service folks were more, you know, or who are watching. In fact, if you pause Facebook, you'll get the same thing, but YouTube will actually give you numbers associated with that. So so in any of those examples that I that I gave, when it pertaining to church attendance, if I find a better solution, I will make a video and post it for you. The right half of the screen is something that comes up a lot. And that is, and I say a lot, I mean, I'm speaking about my my context in the Episcopal diocese of Western Mass. And it came up a lot in the beginning. Because the couple of the churches that were broadcasting, we're using that same countdown, you know, our live stream will begin shortly. They were using that same countdown in the beginning of the service five minutes up. So it was, you know, 955, we those churches would start their live stream, and then after, you know, at 10 o'clock, it would transition to live worship. And during that time, they had a a audio track that they downloaded that they thought, rightfully, from the YouTube Free Music Library. And even though they were, it was, you know, it was okay to use it. What they found is that other folks were using the same track. And so what happened, the, and I'll put a I'll put a name on it, say Mark's Episcopal Church, for three Sundays in a row, we had, this is when we first started using that countdown, we had a canned audio, you know, backtrack on that on that countdown. And we got this notification, your video is partially muted because it may contain music that belongs to someone else.  And we usually got it about seven minutes, 10 minutes after the church services concluded. And maybe that's because that's when we were really paying attention to our phones or not, but there it was. So our person who was in Rob, who's in charge of our streaming ministry at the St. Mark's was like, no, I'm using it. And what and below that message, your video is partially muted, you have two options, you have the option to, to say, okay, keep it muted, or you have the option to contest it and report and say that no, we would like to, you know, this is our actual music, you know, this is we this is where we got it from. And for the first two weeks, we did that. And the third week, it was like, Okay, this is getting old. We know where we got it from. We're still being partially muted. And so we convinced Rob that the best way and here's here's the best practice, have the organist play a prelude on on a variation on whatever they know, and not have it resemble really anything. That's the best way. Because there was another instance where we had where we, you know, we were using music that was in public domain. It was one of our hymns. And we got the same message. And in that Sunday, we said, No, this is we're using this, we have the right to use this. In fact, it was public domain and it and it was on one license, right. And, you know, it came up and we're like, no, we know, we know what the deal is, we know, you know, that we're not wrong here.  So that just that's just my limited experience with three congregations. So, you know, I offered that to, you know, not just so it's, you know, it's clear for folks that, you know, even though there was free audio out there, the in our case, the audio the free audio that we were using was used by an exercise organization in India. And they were claiming it. And it was part of their whole their presentation. You know, so, you know, we would get the same, you know, your, you know, the artist, the music that you're that you're part that you're, you know, that you're using the audio that you're using maybe along to somebody else and it says the same, it would say the same thing week after week. So, so I just offer offer that to you. So at this point, oh, and there's another question that I got just today. If we purchase a one license, annual license and digital with live streaming podcasting add on, do I have to purchase an additional one time event license for funerals, weddings, and, and their example, it was a Thanksgiving service. And the answer is no, your annual license allows you to the covers all your services throughout the year for one year. And the key being one year. So technically, you have one year to hold all if you have a repository where you a page where you have all your video technically should be all those should be removed after the end of that one year. So all that in mind, we come now to our time of together where we have our question and answer. Since I did a whole lot of talking, and it would be nice to, you know, regathering community and listen to what may be on your hearts and your minds. Quick question on that last comment. This is Kristen Diamond. My understanding of the seat, we have CC li and we purchased the various licensing for on demand we added, you know, as opposed to being in the sanctuary worship to make sure we're covered. But in the past, we've also wanted to show, you know, not from an event standpoint, like you mentioned funerals, but show movies that were outside of our music licensing, and we had to purchase those were one time. Can you confirm if that's accurate? That is accurate. Yes. Yes, that is accurate. And in fact, there is a separate copyright. I think I think one license provides is either one license or CC li will provide movies. I think it's CC li has done one for us in the past. Right. Yes. Okay. All right. I just know it's a ever moving and evolving area. It is. And that's the that's the takeaway tonight. This stuff always changes. So and I know that when we first started live streaming six or five years ago, no, excuse me, three years ago in the St. Andrews and Long Meadow, the poor organist was like, you know, so, but it was preparation for the time we find ourselves in there. But thank you for that question. So there's, there's a few questions in the chat, Eric, maybe I can read them to you so you don't have to try to scroll. Sure. There was also a question about doing the reporting and you're figuring out the numbers. You account in reporting for on demand replays on like local access TV, right? Do you do a 1.5 multiplier or is there a formula? How do you know how see like in that case, how do you really know how many people are watching? So and I don't believe the the the the the the broadcaster cannot give you those numbers. So I would do yeah, I would add another 1.5 on that, just so you're, you know, it depends on your I guess it would be it would depend on your time slot. So at least again, it's not like a broken record, but at the same works in East Long Meadow, we had an eight o'clock in the morning time slot in our local access cable. I think that might get more traction than if you're of a previous parish that I was associated with was I think our time slot was like 1am. So, you know, I could just kind of use those two to adjust, you know, but I would use 1.5. So Allison was asking if you would clarify, you made the comment about you have to take down the songs after a year when the license expires. Do you have to if you're renewing the license? So that's a sticky. That is a sticky one because there are churches, you know, that keep them up. And it's their belief that if they're renewing their license year after year, doesn't that get them another year?  What I will do is I will check with one license on that. And I will, and when I make this recording available, so both will make the recording available to you all. And in that, in that email, I will put that answer. So I'm going to make a make a note for myself. There's also a question and the folks here actually might even be able to help with us about do we have any idea comparing Facebook to YouTube about where you get flagged more often for your audio Facebook. Okay, Facebook. They're sorry for that's okay. It's just passionate.  I it's and it's and I think that the the selection we were playing that one Sunday, it was like it was Bach. And it was like not altered. Like it was like it was Bach. You know, so yeah, they're they they will flag. And they and you know, and they're, I mean, from our perspective, it could seem to be a pain. But really what they're doing is protecting the artist.  Because imagine imagine if they had a lighter algorithm. And and imagine all the, you know, the terabytes of data that they're getting per second, going through their network, and that they have to scan, I would, you know, if I were them, I would have a pretty, pretty bad, pretty, you know, sensitive algorithm as well. But yeah, Facebook is it. So there's one question about how do you do an attribution statement when you're live streaming on Facebook or YouTube? Yeah, here we go. That is what I should have done.  So we can continue to take questions and I'll bring that up and then I'll share my screen. Okay. And somebody else is asking about the benefits of each of the licensing companies. And I think I can answer that while you're looking. Generally, it just has to do with what you use the most different companies tend to cover different types of music. So it's better to look in the catalogs to see what kind of music it is that you're you're trying to play and find out which licensing company covers more of that. The pricing on them, I believe, is all pretty similar. Yeah. Do you add anything to that, Eric? No, that's exactly what I would have said. I know that I know I mentioned BMI. I know that that CCLI and CCS cover a lot of works that are, you know, under BMI. Right. So Jay, she said we haven't flagged but not muted on YouTube thus far. And she said we stopped Facebook when they changed their rules. And that's one of the reasons that some churches like my husband's church, for example, which I'm going to pull up here, will have, will stream to three different platforms. They'll stream Facebook, they'll stream to YouTube, and they also stream to a independent provider such as livestream.com. Livestream has been purchased by BIMEO. So it would be BIMEO and Livestream. Let me pull that up right quick. If you ever had the feeling that you forgot something before a presentation, this would be full of them. Somebody who's mentioning also that that CCS license, in addition to the company you were mentioning, did you say BMI, cover ASCAP and SCSAC? Yes. So that covers it. That seems to be more of the contemporary music. Yes. It'll, those providers, again, and you know, we can't, I'm not going to pigeonhole one church or against an over another. But if you, if you have more contemporary music than you would, you know, you would be more, would be beneficial to go to CCLI or CCS. Let me see if I can get this. I'll share my video screen. Okay. We're coming to the end of Grahams. And that's not Grahams. So in the meantime, there's a question. Carolyn Gillette is a current hymnist who uses tunes in the public domain. I paid Carolyn for use of her hymns, but do I also need to worry about the tunes? I would say yes. Well, I would, I would say this, make sure that the hymns that she is using are, and that's my understanding that they are in the public domain, correct? Right. That's what that question is. Yes. So that if they are, if you know that they're in the public domain, then I would say you don't have to worry about it. Let's see. And another question. Do any of the licensing companies cover instrumental music? So I had a, excuse me. Not just sacred, but classical. Right. Yes. So there has been, so before I go over to that. So the folks, the person that I spoke to at one license said that the publishers of instrumental music have been slow to make a connection and offer their, their works to these licensing providers. Since the pandemic has, you know, brought us to where we are now, they are now making up for a lost time with great expediency, as he put it. But you, he says you will find gaps. You will find gaps. And, and he's, and he knew that I was giving this presentation. And he said before Thanksgiving, he's like, you know, just tell them that we're working, we're working with them as fast as we can. But there, there, you will see gaps. So thank you to Kristen. She posted in the chat a link to a document on Google that compares the different licensing companies, or that compares CCI and CCS. So thank you for that. Yes. Thank you. Here are my two screens. This is, this is called, we need a, I need a hardware based switcher. So Allison says we've been flagged on YouTube multiple times. We cut the song once and have disputed it in all the other cases. Yeah. Bear with me. You want me to keep reading questions or keep going? Kristen asks, and you, you all can, can unmute and ask as well, if it's easier. Kristen asks, what do we need to be aware of when embedding YouTube videos into worship and or on web pages? My understanding is the video, if the video allows for sharing or covered. If the video allows for sharing. Meaning there's a share button in the bottom of the YouTube video. Yeah. That allows you to grab the embed code, for example. Right. So re, re, re do that question again. Resay that question again. So for example, I'm, I have an advent calendar for, for COVID, right? It's an online interactive advent calendar. And some of the days have embedded like, oh, come on, come on manual as a YouTube video on that blog post. I Googled and I researched and it was a kind of a squishy area, but by and large it said that if that sharing feature is enabled on that YouTube video, you can use that embed code on your webpage. Because essentially it's taking it back to the video. But I don't, it said it was a squishy area. So I just want to make sure and recover. I do know that. So there was a couple. So let me reframe that slightly. And this may answer your question. There are videos that third party companies, such as igniter media or the, the, there's another one. I know igniter igniter is one of the, one of the larger ones. And they produce video, what they call many movies for, for churches. And they specifically say that you, you cannot restream it. So although there has been a some latitude given for, for the pandemic. So in other words, you can't take the video.  And you used the video somewhere within that worship service. That's allowable. Because that video under the user agreement with igniter media, the video can be used within the, for that, in that use case, you cannot take, and I'll just turn that off because we're not getting to the, those credits grant. My husband's church runs a full credit at the end of his worship services and I can't find them. But I will, I will actually put the, put the blur image in the, in the reply email that I send out when we make the video or the webinar available as a recording. But anyway, the, so if you're, if igniter says you're going to take that video and you want that to, and you're just going to take it and upload it to Facebook, that's not allowed. If you're going to take the, so if you're doing something similar, if you're taking the video with the person produced and using it solely, I think that wouldn't be allowed. But the best thing is contact the person who made the video. Yeah. And I've tried some of that and it's kind of gone to dead space. So in, in the effort to cover, I'm sure I've credited and certainly linked, you know, linked back where I needed to, but and not altered or it's not downloaded video, it's still playing on YouTube, but an iframe on the website. Right. Yeah. So I know, I know as a, as a web developer that it's always been considered okay to, to take an embed code from YouTube and put it on your website. I mean, you do run the risk that that video might go away or that they might swap it out or something. Yeah. But that's allowable. I think what's trickier is if you start embedding the video, say in a live stream, and then you record the live stream, now you're recording the video. That's a good point. Thank you very much. That makes it very clear. Right. Thank you. I did find the, the the verbiage. And so it, what we do here at the congregational church of Summersville is say what we're saying here. Kim Hems used in this worship service are published in the New Century hymn of my pilgrim press and used by permission. Other music performed during this worship service are used under license of one license.net. And then you must put your license number. That's the, that's the format that I, so the important part there is other music performed during this worship service is covered under one license.net and the number. So Deborah shares, we were flagged on Facebook for spoken word. Apparently our lay reader who was reading the gospel had a voice whose timber matched that equity factor and the algorithm caused the recording to be pulled. We appealed and after reviewing Facebook released the recorder. That's difficult.  I mean, that just brings home the point that, you know, they are their algorithm is. Jane shares our church has used a good bit of music from convergence music project. The CMP licensing works without anything else. These are original works for anthems and special music and sometimes same type of music. So that would be a good resource for us. I'll save the chat. Thank you. Thanks for that. So I'm sorry. No, somebody else said we've been including our actual license number as part of our credits at the end of our worship. Is that a good thing to do and necessary? I think you just answered that. I think one license requires it. One license requires that number to be included somewhere in the service. And I think at least for the folks that are, you know, that you saw listed there on that broadcast, on that worship service. First, you know, these, the folks who are in that service are younger and so they like to see their name on screen. So it becomes like a, it kind of becomes like a thing for them. So, Sarah wrote, we include this message in the prelude slides and again at the end of the service and also site specifics on the first slide of each song permission to stream podcast music and the service obtained from one license. Yep. Since number that you can also do it that way. Yeah. Yeah, I'm thrilled at the participation and the questions. So there was a question about, do you call out each individual song him or prelude with the artist and publication date on the attribution? I wouldn't, because remember you're reporting you as part of your responsibility is to report and there you go line by song by song line by line. If it makes, so let's say this, if it makes you feel comfortable doing that, then continue to do that if that's what you've been doing. And Steve asks, and this is a big, a big question for copyright. Is there a distinction between recorded and non-recorded services? Yes. Expand on that? Yeah, like recorded or recorded or live services at the church that the church is producing? Well, well, I think I know one, you know, the question has come up some about, so if you're streaming a service out on Zoom, is that different than if you then record that stream and post it? I think the same rules apply. If the, if the, if you are, if you are mechanically, can again go back, goes back to the mechanical, if you're mechanically distributing and then sharing that and performing that, even though it's digital, if you're performing that again, yes, it would, it would, I would follow the same protocol that you would use if you were, if you were live streaming. So yes, if you're, if you're, if you're in Zoom and then you're, you know, if you're distributing afterwards or during, yes. And so even if you're, so even if you're doing, even if you're, I would even go as far as, if you're doing Zoom worship, make sure you have the podcasting and live streaming bundle. So that was Steve Griffin who asked that and I'm not sure he's, that is, oh, there you are. I didn't know if that helped Steve or if you wanted to say more. Yeah, no, that answered my question. Okay. Let's see. Sarah asks, would any of these license cover any kind of artwork or spoken word, et cetera, or something else? Yep. Yeah. So I believe one license, I know CCLI also I think has music and art. But also apart from these licensing, you, if you're using artwork, be sure that the artwork that you're using, you have copyright permission from the artist to, you know, to use. Again, I'm thinking back to the artists, you know, not on, not on Unsplash, but on something like like Igniter, where they, that's this company will, you know, provide churches with stock photography made specifically for use within a worship service. So lower thirds, scripture backgrounds, that sort of thing. You have to check, you know, again, because pandemic they're allowing that, you know, allowing their, their to work to be extended to live streaming, but their work was originally not intended for live streaming. It was intended to be used to aid in, again, they come from a different, you know, tradition than ours, but theirs was primarily to assist churches who project using a projector in a house using in the worship setting. So our church is in the process of developing a photo bank, collected of images from church members that way. We don't have to worry about that. Do we still need to cite that even though we've collected them in house and everyone's just like put it in the bank, don't worry about person to person?  Because again, you have a, you have a pool of, of, of creators. Okay. Well, that, that would help later too, if somebody stole the picture from you, that you can, you can clarify where it came from. Yeah. Like, for example, we had, there was a situation I knew that I heard of where a poet is we mentioned spoken word. And there was a poem that was read. And this particular artist, this writer has bots that scan for their work. And, you know, it's, I think it's done through a service. And so, you know, they, I'm not saying that the church needs to do that, but but yeah, it's protecting, you know, at least put it, putting an acknowledgement on it that it is belongs to the churches is not a bad thing. So we've, we've run out of questions in the chat. Does anybody else want to say something? Oh, there's a message. Handbell recordings. Yeah, I think that falls under, that would fall under like instrumental recordings.  That's where that would, you know, they cover some stuff, but they don't cover a lot of it. So that was, I'm going back like two churches again. I'm just, that was in response to Martha's comment in the chat about getting permission for handbell recordings. She's saying the publishing department department at Jeffers Handbell supply is helpful. Oh, okay. They are, they act as agent for many publishers. And if they can't grant permission themselves, they will refer you on to the proper publisher, all the contact information. Oh, nice. I just had this done yesterday for some solo recordings. Oh, nice. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And Martha shared that email address, that email address is in the chat. If anybody needs that for a handbell choir, we'll grab a copy of the chat. So, and it's possible some Sarah writes some one license covers some songs. Well, and Jeffers would pass you on to one license if you were asking about something that was covered that way. Great. Thank you. Anybody else have comments or questions or, or wonderings? Jane is. Yes, I have a question. Go ahead. Clip art and backgrounds for, for videos that I produced the clip art I use as part of our churches, clip art paid clip art library is my need to cite that or. And you're speaking of the you're using clip art that the church published that you're using in your bullet in your Sunday bulletin that type of stuff that would be available for the Sunday bulletin I'm using that in when I make the lyric videos for the hand. Okay. I would reach out to the clip art folks. Okay. Right or read the read whatever the terms are that that is it a subscription or a web subscription. I'll check that out. Yeah. Thank you. So I think the the the idea is when in doubt, call them, you know, contact them. Do others have questions questions? We're coming on eight o'clock. So it might be, you know, the witching hour when people get tired. I don't know what that's about at all. There's a couple thank yous in the chat. So thank you. You're quite welcome.  So thank you all for being here. Yeah. I'm going to mention how grateful I am that Eric is on the staff and say send your questions to Eric. This is always such a gray squishy area that it's difficult. It is. And we're all kind of learning as we go. That's right. And as you see my contact information is on screen as I see heads nodding down to right in the record. And we will post this recording and we'll keep adding copyright resources to the conference website as we find them. So feel free to check those out. And if you all don't mind, we'll be emailing you the next time we're doing a webinar like this so that you can you can come again. That's right. That'd be great. All right. Thank you. So the next webinar that I will be, I'm thinking will be in, will be in video format first. So I'll make a video available where you all could watch it. And then we'll have a Zoom session like we are having now where we just chat so that we can really, really dig in without. You don't get to hear me for 20 minutes about first. We get our discussion can actually be brought in and we could build more community that way. At least that's my idea. But thank you all. Thank you all for coming out tonight. Thank you for joining and gathering. Yes, thank you. And best of luck as you go through Advent with your own worship. Thank you, Eric. Thank you, Tiffany. Yes, no worry. Thank you, Marilyn. Good night, everybody. Good night. Thanks, everyone. Take care.