Everybody's present and accounted for so we can begin the meeting for Monday, May 21st 2018 select board waterbury select board meeting welcome everybody first thing to do is to approve the agenda is there any changes I'd just like to briefly talk about the contract of the state police for the first of July okay where would you like to squeeze that in wherever you decide to put it all right see how managers items see how the time schedule goes and let her see under managers items Chris anything else okay seeing none I take a motion to approve the agenda please I'll make a motion to approve the agenda with the addition of the police and under managers items their second second man okay any other discussion seeing none all those in favor hi hi consent agenda items minutes of May 7th meeting and appointing Steve lot speech to the central Mont regional planning Commission transportation advisory committee there a motion to approve please oh moves that we approve the consent agenda items as presented second second that second at it motion been made and seconded to approve the consent agenda all those in favor please say hi hi and on to the public is there anybody that wishes to speak here from the public at this time okay seeing none we'll move right along here 708 horseshoe club requests for Memorial bench Kathy Sears not here but I understand there's somebody here to speak to this issue yeah okay do you have any idea what it's about Carla no okay well we'll just kick it to one side for now and maybe somebody will show up in a little bit and we can chat about it revitalizing waterberry antique car show permit and Wi-Fi contract Karen perhaps hold on this a gentleman you looking to speak in behalf of the Memorial bench by any chance okay okay all right so here like sure yeah drag along whoever you'd like put that microphone kind of in the middle of the three of you Karen just going to ask you to introduce your guests okay perfect you're right of me Bob Chase and Dave Stone they are automobile enthusiasts and the organization that puts on the Vermont antique and classic car meet for the first time in 60 years it will be held in Waterbury this summer how would you like us to proceed so just sort of bored understands we do have a town ordinance that regulates entertainment for large events there's a state statute that also these folks need to comply with the two the ordinance and the state statute kind of dovetail together the seems both the ordinance and the statute ask the other party to issue a permit before they do so we wait for that to happen it will never happen so we'll go first I I hope and we haven't had to use this entertainment ordinance very often we've implemented we've implemented it a couple of times for the motorcycle rally that formerly was held at the same events field down on route to at John Farris property we also implemented it when called Murphy had his comedy show up at Hope Davy field for a couple of years in a row so we've used the information from the motorcycle rally in particular shared that with with Karen Barb's been involved in the process I'm sure there's been conversations with the people from the car meet and we're trying to work out the details on it I think we're in a position where we can conditionally approve a permit I apologize that this gets out yeah it just was finalized on Friday and there may be a couple of things that we want to discuss tonight but I'll turn it over to you three you can explain the event for us and I'm satisfied with everything that we have in place we did use the permit that Stowe issued in the past to help us I think we we're going to want to hear a little bit more about public safety police protection we haven't kind of put that in ironclad wording yet in the permit so why don't you folks go ahead and give us some information and we'll get back to you and relative to public safety I had sort of a hard time because your police forces and I understand that you were under contract this of July 1st police and we're using probably they wouldn't be able to cover those things and we should go higher like Washington County Sheriff's Department but I finally kind of got through that today and contacted Washington County Sheriff's Department mainly for the parade peaks and I think we've denoted on our parade group that we will be at least four officers to do that but I do want to sit down and with the Washington County Sheriff's Department and go through that with them they are supposed to contact me sometime this week I'm not the person was not available today to do that so I kind of would like to see things proceeded with the understanding that we would have suggested to this board some sort of police plan prior to the event my home that we could do everything that we need to do that way within 30 days minimum I think that would be fair and if we could deliver that piece I need that piece for my public assembly permit anyway so it's no no mystery and no big deal I have to have that before I can turn that into the state we've tried to do most of the other things I have met with the fire department I have met with the rescue squad you should have all of those letters as of today so and I would concur to to the board we passed this permit conditionally today just to give them a pretty solid you know yellow light degree and we can work out some of the details from the parade perspective the last information that we have and I've just passed out that we got earlier today I think it was amended from what was the other day and the I think the four officers in the locations that you have are good I wouldn't when you have your meeting with the county sheriff let me know about that if I'm available I'll attend that meeting as well if I can't attend somebody from my staff will attend the biggest question I have right now is about the just look at yours for just a second so my biggest question right now is the police officer that you have stationed at the roundabout where is that person really going to be and what is the goal I mean there's going to be traffic coming down 100 and is the is the sense that you'll let them come through the roundabout tell them they can't go down Main Street and send them back a hundred are we stopping them from coming into the roundabout and the other question that goes along with it is how long does the parade take to pass any given point and I know in this case it's going to come up route to and and then go through the village and then have to go back so how long does the parade event typically take from start to finish typically if we were going to try to leave firefield at 330 in the afternoon we envision the parade being done by 530 at the latest if it runs typical to what we've done in the past we've run I think this is a little bit shorter than the one that we did in just for the logistics of where things are but I feel what by 530 things should be wrapped up okay and are you requesting that the roads be closed to traffic completely during the parade so okay so we've working really closely with everyone because we understand the impacts this is going to have on our town positive and not negative but just some things we have to work through the room is designed so that at least some kind of traffic can go the opposite direction of the parade we've never never any point where there's parade group on the same road going both directions okay so therefore we see that there will be traffic that can go the opposite direction of the route the roundabout is sort of this hmm how do we make it work and we really see that the officer probably being at the top allowing car the parade to go through and then letting some cars in to go around the roundabout what's nice about the route in the roundabout is we've directed the parade of Union Street so that main street is completely is accessible really you know Southbound Main Street is accessible at all times so it's just a matter of working with the police officer or the you know the security whatever we call them to allow cars through the roundabout as well as we're allowing the parade to go through because we can't I can't we I know we can't stop the roundabout for an hour and a half I imagine that's what we can't do so we've got to work that through that's probably the hardest pinch point and one of the reasons we did discuss designing the roundabout to have him go straight through and go right up South Main Street but by doing that it felt like we were going to be closing all of Main Street off and that wasn't something that we thought was an option that we were very cognizant of businesses being open on Saturday afternoon I will also say as we've been talking about this it's we will tweak and adjust however it's necessary to make it work I do think I should have started this whole thing beforehand we've worked really close with a real enthusiasts we're really thrilled the idea of bringing in a group to town with the potential of 20,000 people attending this event over three days will make a huge impact on our town it will be something that we will work with businesses will provide opportunities for them to benefit so that people don't just stay in the field we want to have a dance this is something that's been held in stow for years and years and years and now revitalize waterway dance train station bringing people to town and the parade is a tradition a huge tradition you're probably 300 cars I think you said that we participated there's about 900 cars that come to the event so over the two hours when they're done with the route they're just going to continue back through the back to the field and they go wherever you know just we left them yeah some people disband after that they'll head back to their their hotels I didn't know for meals and restaurants and the dance if they are staying north on 100 when they get to that roundabout they're going to take off and go they don't have to go back to the field right we we provide the parade back to the field for some people who want to do that but essentially in that parade it's that roundabout it's essentially over people can go and say bye and is it one of your staff leading the parade or is it an officer we're working on something right now that we may have the 47th board of the state police leading the parade on to not kicked in this morning our formal request is in with the state police as a cadet it may not but that's sort of our goal which would be really ideal especially with the headquarters over here in Waterbury that's something I think would be a really plus thing for everybody so how many years did you operate in stone I forget this year 60 furnace in okay well I I'm assuming everybody understands that you know you're you're stepping into a new town things aren't going to be the same as they were for all those years but I think I had you know I hope for the best and I think that it'll be a slight learning curve but I think we'll get through it and hopefully it'll be hopefully you'll stay here as long as you did up there now are you guys also doing in years past you guys have closed the road down in downtown stow and done like a car night as well are you planning on doing that as well so that's the revitalizing Waterbury Street dance so the stow party has been sponsored by the Stow Area Association so this is the part of the partnership that we have so revitalizing Waterbury wants to close off the Rotary Place the road in front of the train station the WTPP set up on the porch of the train station playing music we would ideally have the cars lined up around the outside of Rusty Parker Park so what I understand I've never been to the dance but that people like to park their cars and dance around with their cars right there what we've asked is that the cars that are parked there are from the show and they have a little number on them and I believe revitalizing water burying is putting together a group to volunteer to park those cars based on the project it'll be Saturday night from 7 to 10 p.m. we do want to plan for a deer garden and boot trucks they expect about 300 people to attend so this is not anything like the Friday night block party up on St. Street we've got Rusty Parker Park so we can overflow in the park and on the Rotary Place Honestly visually I think this is an amazing space to have a street dance in front of this historic building with the historic cars it's also blocking off a section of roads that won't impact businesses in terms of closing off Main Street so for two blocks quite a quagmire I could imagine and that's not something we wanted to identify the train station is to do street dance is there is there a band no WTEV oh that's DJ and they've done it for years and they're big sponsors of this event anyways and we will they've already committed to doing it and every month copy roasters is really excited to have this event down in front of the train station as well so back to the round issue as you let the general public come through and that kind of intersects the parade will the parade wait on the other end for the other cars so that it's kind of an unbroken line chain or will they I don't have an answer to the question you just don't know what kind of traffic down the pace to have mall integrate to take away if you're letting 20 to 30 or 40 cars of the public come down through there and the parade vehicles are doing this we should have somebody a quarter mile up on Union Street to say a speed up a little to the to come here also to speak or vice versa hate to slow it down we need to spread you guys back out or whatever I mean that that can be done so we're not inchwarming along if you will the quarter mile gaps in a parade that we don't like to keep a nice smooth flow and by monitoring what the police officer does at the rotary is a 8 let's start off with a 20 car minimum here let 20 go through stop them and then we'll get 20 20 show cars go through another 20 20 20 and see how it goes and we can be we can work with that officer okay this is working or it's not working let's go with 10 cars let's go with 30 cars and we've been a pretty good field so next year we have a paint I want to show them what we have and said you think this will work do you think we need an extra person you know what what do you want to do we want to make it so that it works I wouldn't be surprised that we'd end up with two at the roundabout just yeah you've got you've got traffic coming off the main street feeding in there I thought I thought maybe two at the roundabout I'm not sure and we'll talk about it I'm not sure what the need is for one at the intersection of main and stop three cars if there's a stoplight and it stops these antique cars may not be able to get going to go over the hill so it's a blinking light it allows the through traffic and so the idea there is it means they would prefer it to be a blinking light so that it doesn't that doesn't have to be a stop there so that's what that is about you know I will say that but is there going to be any traffic coming off the Stow Street is my point that would be I don't know that's how it's just packed on Stow Street for you know restaurant parking because they can't come over the drive edge because the parade is going to be going across we can deal with all these logistic so just understanding I think we all understand that this first year you guys have an expectation of increased attendance because we're in a location people gonna check this out so the goal here is to be so successful that increased attendance dicks instead of going I'm never gonna come back that was crazy but I do believe I'll say from my work with Bob and Dave and Dwayne and this whole group of men who are running the show these are some of those competent and organized people I've ever met you know and I think they appreciate that we're willing to make this transition go as well as we can okay I did have a I did have a question about the the field itself whether show is going to be and your permit application suggests that the entrance to the field that you're gonna have certified flavor is directing traffic there and I think that's perfectly acceptable they're confident enough to direct traffic in the painting project so they can do it down there and I was just looking at the Stow permit and it seems that the only police that this that Stow required what were police at your entrances and then police during the parade you didn't have any police presence we hire a private security okay thank and the high tech and now he's kind of gone to drown security he's been doing it so fun number of years okay and there will be security on the field from big morning on Friday until 2 o'clock on Sunday okay and overnight security he's there overnight to good all right I think I think that's acceptable to me I was looking back at the motorcycle rally permit and we required them to have two uniform police officers on the field but if you've been using the security team on the field for a number of years I think that's how they have like reflected that they security and everything yeah they're all it's a license you know a lot of people parking cars on the field overnight and leave so provide that security yeah if you are if you've addressed it with a security program I recommend this like for that's okay is there much difference in the size of the field here in Waterbury versus the one in Stow and just in terms of making sure the three acres more of you that's good there's benefits it's flat and it doesn't look like it's not money so they're really thrilled about a dry don't say it doesn't fly for years or whenever I saw the car show in the beyond a week and they know the field size and the shape of the field is more conducive for vendors for flea markets display vehicles and different types of exhibits and you'll have a quick parking there for your visitors as well right you do have a map yeah I saw you'll speak in a vendors did you lose anybody from the fact that you're changing from so to come on just natural whatever we lose a few a few but this year I talked with my flea market person on one C night he said there's a whole bunch of new people that have signed up so yeah it's he's actually got enough people signed up that he's I talked about something and he's actually gonna have to try to reconfigure some of the fields because of new people coming in there's people are expanding the size of the units they want typically they'll just buy one space well now they want two or three spaces so they're actually expanding the wares that they're bringing in your product they want to sell yeah so that shows long-term interest in the vendors that people want to sell here that's good and something I'd like to do there I believe you've got brochures in your packets and everything but I'd like to give to each of the four of you lose I'd like the free tickets this is the what goes out to to in there but you can see what the pricing is for higher registration for we might get for pack her out and this is what gets mailed out to all the people that have been here before and we'll notice the big thing we're moving to Waterbury in the beginning of there because you don't have all the lodging here we have involved store areas with it and about down to have a little paper in there and the poster which I brought in tonight we have two-size posters and it has revitalizing Waterbury and the style logo on it just so that people can go and so job very good so I would recommend then what pleases that emotion be passed to conditionally approved the permit for the remote antique classic and car show for this 10th 11th and 12th for the fire field as well as the dance at Westy Park Park and the parade and then the only details really to be worked out at this point I think just the logistics with the Washington County Sheriff's and making sure we have everything covered everything else I believe we've addressed them I think we're all set to go they've paid the so moved is there a second second any further discussion sure when I get that finalized in a letter from the Washington County Sheriff's Department so may I just bring that to you yep and would you also at least issue be a letter via email is fine with your decision here tonight yep that's no problem okay good thank you much all those in favor of supporting this what sounds to be a terrific event please say hi wish you the best of luck thank you lose the weather chair thanks a lot do you want to discuss the wife I wouldn't yes yeah that's next okay I sent to you in my email on Friday or Saturday remember which they have sent it now that revitalizing waterbury is recommending that the town continue paying for public Wi-Fi frankly I'd forgotten about this not not forgotten that there was public Wi-Fi available but had forgotten that a grant was received and the first five years of this were free to the town when Darren Wynnum was the economic development director here when he was directly contracting with the town this opportunity came up came to the select board and we decided to go forward with that Bob Butler is the IT contractor that we use here for all of our internal computer maintenance and software and the like email and he's been working with us for in earnest since we think the last year at the fire station so I get an email from Bob last week that said oh by the way the Wi-Fi contract is up I sent you that email he talked about the number of people that used it thousand people just two weeks ago now 351 people used it the day that he sent this to me which was the 17th and then Karen submitted a letter that she addressed to me and the select board so with that I'll turn it over to you to make a short presentation and questions to be asked so I knew about the Wi-Fi I think probably many of us do and research find out that we were one of the first towns to receive the grant five-year grant for the Wi-Fi and in some conversations with other local downtown they're all in a buzz because their grants are all going are coming up in the next year so we're not the only ones who receive these grants and have five years public Wi-Fi what I have learned is we aren't taking advantage of it the way we can and Alyssa and I plan on really tapping into it I'm getting access to the public Wi-Fi for data can allow us to count unique visitors how many people show up at events whether people are how people are using it when you hear 351 people used it in a single day in the middle of May says to me it's actually used quite a lot and not having this as a service is is really going to take what rate of step backwards it's not just there for the farmers market to be able to swipe credit cards or the arts best vendors to swipe credit cards but it's there for people to to ping location where where can I go and have lunch where can I have dinner where's this where's the best place to get my car flat repaired you know all that information come through the water very connection this public Wi-Fi I really highly recommend that we use it we are revitalizing water very is going to spend a little time getting to know it better working with Bob Butler learning how to access this data it also becomes a great economic development tool to for businesses to explain to them how we are accessing and have this public Wi-Fi available we would like to make a single request the right now the public Wi-Fi has a landing page and right now the landing page is waterbury.org ever heard of it well it doesn't exist and if you land on that page it says page doesn't exist so you're getting on Wi-Fi but you're going to a dead page that is absolutely bad face for us so I would like to recommend that we have the landing page be discover waterbury.com discover waterbury.com is revitalizing water is outward-facing website that is tourist driven and this is where you get information on what you can see do places to visit fun things that are going on all the restaurants and the you know in and stores and all those places are on there so I'd like to I will take ownership of it ownership of it but I think our W would really like to begin to start using it better it's definitely sort of slip to the cracks we're glad there it's a smart thing to have had and it's time to use it better and we can't unless you renew the contract so that's what we're asking you. So what's the contract for I'm actually one of the businesses that has one of these on the building I don't think there's full awareness of how this actually is is functioning but what it actually is is it ties into our internet connection and so all of the bandwidth is paid for by each individual business that's tied into and so that's I guess I'm wondering is that is the payment for Bob services or at least on the equipment or what because the actual bandwidth is paid for by the businesses of these these Wi-Fi antennas are connected to. Yeah it's it's basically I think the license for the nine controllers that are around the building. So the software associated with it. So yeah and you know the we never had to pay this before so I mean Darren presented it it was in the midst of the flood recovery in the midst of trying to figure out where to put a building and we said yes sure and no I never heard of what we thought or whatever you just said I don't know how it's worked but I'm glad it's worked some but so it's really paying just for the it's not a contract so to speak but you get a discount if you pay it all at once as opposed to annually and it's a little bit cheaper if you pay it it would be with the discount it comes to $3442 it's $4,050 without the discount and if we annualized it you wouldn't get that discount you'd pay one-fifth of the $4,050 it's you know it's not in the budget but it's not a make-or-break kind of line item in the budget I think that if it's even if it's just being used for the swiping of credit cards at the farmers market it's probably worth doing just because I'm sure that's how they make most of the transactions so that's what I know about it not even sure well they sent it to you so moving forward somewhere in the future should we consider putting it in this part of the budget yeah I mean it's something that you know it's a minor issue but we'll try to make sure that we flag it for five years from now so it's a five-year term of licensing just like it was the first time around we entered into this in 2013 here we are now so it's $700 a year five years ago yeah yeah yeah yeah back to the the landing page originally it was sold to the businesses as the landing page could be your own business okay so that's how it was originally proposed but well so here's what I'd like to propose not that I want to take on more work but maybe what I could suggest is give revitalizing waterways some time to do a little research and how to really benefit have the town benefit from this give me six months don't make me we have to solve it in the next couple of weeks or months and we can come up with a strategy so that if benefit if the businesses are paying for the bandwidth how do they benefit what was the original I mean I haven't seen the original contracts and we could figure some of the stuff out and see how we can make the best work for our town yeah the other thing that can be considered and that we've done now that's not $30,000 $300 $400 we can we can handle that but as we explored it it may be something that we want to just put in revitalizing waterways byron anyway and if it's a matter of funding we can fund revitalizing waterway we're already providing a good share of your budget and then the notice comes to revitalizing waterway and revitalizing waterway can work with the businesses I think you have you know the nexus is better from revitalizing waterway to be working with the businesses to see is this worthwhile can it be improved it really doesn't do anything for the municipal government except provides an opportunity for business people and the farmers market and the like and in a marketing opportunity so it might be best to just slide it into your portfolio anyway and we'll take care of the funding for this year and then it makes a lot of sense to me to have and then we don't have to worry about remembering but it also becomes one of the economic development tools that we have and it becomes a selling point it becomes a way I think it's a great thing I can share with other organizations that are doing things in town but not providing this service is like I said a step backwards in this day and age and I just don't think that would be smart do we know what the original grant was I think that's the one other thing we proud to be a little realistic that's it's five-year-old technology five years from now there might be an expectation that the equipment might need upgrading so I think just be aware of that as we talk about five years from now we can do some research on that I think I would probably turn to Bob Butler for some help yeah I'm beginning to think that if there's nine hubs and one of them was the police station that maybe the one of the houses down so I don't have a lot of information there's a lot of learning curve here but again I think it's a good mark and we I think for the price of it for what the value is we should approve it and then we'll work together and make it work better now than it has worked the past five years and we'll have an eye towards where this needs to go but we can just get a motion to authorize me to spend the money that would be helpful I'll make a motion as stated to approve the funding for the wife I contract all second that all right whenever he used myself just because of that weird scenario well to that point mark from your connections in the business community this has not been an onerous thing for you to deal with and now I forget it's there half the time to good I log on to it sometimes because it works and my one my five% of my Wi-Fi is for some reason I'll jump on to it seems like a good thing for safety purposes to have this yeah I've done that as well I would also add that if say the the hardware needs to be upgraded our W's in a position to write grants for that kind of thing good okay thanks all right well motion's been made to renew the contract for the next five years for the Wi-Fi or Waterbury and it's been seconded so unless there's any other further discussion all those in favor please say aye aye aye aye motions been approved all right thank you Karen thanks conservation Commission we've been we've got a full slate of numbers and we've got some conservation projects that we're looking at over the next year and I've made a specific request to bill and Steve lost each to attend our meetings in those case a couple meetings a year in Steve's case maybe four meetings a year wanted to make that you guys aware that I'm asking their time to show up after hours at our meetings help us with some budgeting help us integrate into some processes as we maybe mature and start asking more of both the town and the residents to engage in conservation activities either in that could be a vote at town meeting day in the future or it could be some allocation of dollars in the future there's been an offshoot to a new group called the Waterbury Lands Initiative has that you guys been aware of that it's a it's a group of citizens unorganized association at this point partnering with revitalized Waterbury to access and to potentially pursue some other conservation projects so that's really all I wanted to share if you have any questions we're up to yeah I was speaking to somebody I forget who it was off top my head the other day they suggested that there might be consideration for conservation I don't know if it was you guys or they were speaking about a conservation committee considering perhaps looking at smaller parcels than what they typically look at isn't there a limit on the parcel size that you guys typically considered as part of your portfolio well you're referring to perhaps under land trusts that might be a conservation person conservation it was a conversation here just a while back and that I do remember they they suggested that they were going to consider looking at smaller parcels isn't is it a 30 acre parcel that's kind of the limit for there's no conservation for there isn't conservation activities there you could and in conservation can come in many forms but when we say that we typically mean a conservation easement that that controls the use of that property to support some usually some natural resource we can protect that it's preventing building usually to protect some the wildlife species or protect flood plains lots of options when you engage in the conservation community and you engage with land trusts they typically have they want to work with large acreages and get the best bang for their buck so to speak and that buck always comes from the public it's many pots of money and it's federal dollars it's other state dollars other foundation dollars and conservation projects work very successfully when you have a local advocate a local advocate group that both is tapped into the community and can raise awareness but can also raise funds for it and a lot of times some of those funds get either come from the tax boat in this case a tax payer or it comes from every residence in the form of just so the local community is going to be helpful in in losing awareness for some of those projects that land trusts might not have the appetite to go after so your maybe your 30 acre threshold or the common thing you heard was probably pertaining to a local committee to be helpful in targeting land trusts interest for issues that the town of Waterbury is interested in and Waterbury has a lot of conservation interests there's floodplain issues there's water reservoir issues their shoots will help wildlife corridor issues there is hunting issues long list but we want to be kind of driver of that any conservation activities that occur in the town that's what the Waterbury lands initiative would hope to do so you're kind of like a just a total umbrella to cover you try to cover all aspects of conservation in general yeah and we would seek to partner with any of those other organizations that would be interested in so can I say something I went to a planning it was an evening at the Green Mountain Club last fall that was about planning for conservation it was sponsored by this partly by the still interest but part of the topic was connectivity of wildlife corridors and they gave examples on the western side of the Green Mountains from Cambridge North I don't remember the name of it was five towns that banded together and they were looking at likes people had had smaller acreage it was very much a grounds up that ground bottoms up thing and it was you know if you own five acres ten acres 1520 you could work together with other neighboring property owners and put and be looking at the resource of that wildlife connectivity and they were able to get some grant funding that way do you remember the name of that group it was that the bird that's right yeah so they I mean they were valuing small acreage and having people work together something that we might look at too so to say that conservation's budget has been a shoestring operation I can't remember that what year it was in established but was established at the town meeting a number of years ago authorizing the town to have a conservation commission at that meeting there was discussion and at the time the town had no appetite for spending a whole lot of money for conservation but certainly empowered the appointment of the conservation commission I think in any given year the largest budget that they've had is $300 and it's not because they ask for it it's just that there's a line item there and I put something in it and typically the last couple years you know what happens is the money goes from the planning department where there's a line item that says to conservation commission goes into the conservation fund and then that money sits there and most of the revenues over the past few years that the conservation commission that the conservation fund shows is kind of in and out money it's either donations or admissions to programs that they have and then there's been some expenditure out to pay for a lecturer or somebody to come in make a presentation so I think the question that you know I was asked if I could come to a couple of meetings a year to as was just said inform them about the budgeting process what needs to be done if they seek money and the reasons for it the conservation commission the conservation fund has a very large fund balance of two hundred and thirty two dollars and nine cents so anyway so Allen do you deal with a conservation issues obviously we're fortunate here in this state and especially this town you got some landowners that own fairly large parcels of property and you've also got the continuing tax burden that's bearing down on a lot of these people who have these large parcels and you know when they get feel too much pressure they ended up chopping off acreages and selling it off and I'm just wondering if if you have any interaction with the people from the state in any of those areas that perhaps can ease the pain when it comes to taxation and I would think that that kind of in itself helps you know landowners hang on to their property a little bit longer so I didn't expect so well when it comes to taxation just remember that about a third of the land area in Waterbury is already owned in forest land by the state of Vermont all of the northwestern side is in the you know Mount Mansfield State Forest surrounding the Waterbury Reservoir we've got the Putnam State Forest on the other side and for all that English that the state has they pay us fifty two thousand two hundred and fifty dollars for for that land through pilot you mean yeah so there's there's three there's the pilot for the buildings at the state complex mostly but some of the buildings at the state park included we get a little bit about two hundred thirty thousand for that and that's a big jump over what it was and it's mainly because the complex is much more valuable than it was we get eighty three thousand dollars from the state for people who have enrolled in the current use program so private property owners who put their land in the current use and I don't know how many acres are in current use but we get eighty three thousand for that and then for the third of the town that the state owns fifty two thousand two hundred fifty dollars so part of the tax burden that we all pay is that we're if that was a private ownership we get a lot more than fifty two thousand dollars so just a quick question you mentioned that there seemed to be a number of ad hoc groups that are popping up with sort of the same mission in mind are you finding that you're able to corral that energy to a certain extent well the Waterway Conservation Commission is a municipal volunteer municipal board that was essentially tasked with a long list of generalities that said it kind of like but you can still do what you want we weren't never really tasked with any specific action item and so anything that we've done to date is is by direction anything we haven't done today to the other groups the Waterway Lands Initiative group was an interest to step away from the municipality and to to entering to conservation discussions away from the framework of the municipal framework of this framework and that gives us a level of freedom to have candid conversations about money about some very private landowner issues and the work with RW and the work with RW and then having close connection with between the two organizations conservation commission and the Waterway Lands Initiative I don't think any of any land conservation can get done in this town without the partnership of the municipality itself so that's a really important relationship to keep there are other natural resource organizations in town you might help me with the list but friends of the Lewinsky River is growing the reservoir friends of the reservoir friends of the reservoir maybe I miss spoke there the library is doing a great job with hosting a lot of natural resource programs and we haven't actually curtailed any of that energy to our benefit but I see you to grow all right I think you may have stayed here longer than you wanted to make sure coming now so before we move on too much further here I see several people come back in here or come newcomers here and I didn't know we kind of skipped over the horseshoe club request was there anybody that showed up for that yeah oh I'm sorry carl okay yeah all right then I guess we're on to the eight o'clock Waterbury Commons pedestrian path don in horn looks like Steve's gonna take the you can come up to the table too so I'll let Steve talk mostly about this the Waterbury Commons is a development that are not developed off of Perry Hill Road 20 something lots there I can't remember exactly how many and thank you 26 constructed in basically two phases the first phase is built out and we've completely sold and then the second phase is in various stages of construction right now this issue did come to the board a number of years ago I think it was probably 2012 or 13 but why don't I just turn it over to you Steve and give us a little bit of history and then don and others can make the request right so don's a resident of the development the Waterbury Commons neighborhood if you will this is parcel that's in the village I passed out of math and the area that shows the subdivided houses it's at the or subdivided lots it's at the low end of Perry Hill Road and there are 26 lots all together and a little more than half of them now have houses built all around was the developer and when this project came to the development review board as a plan unit development one of the topics was pedestrian access since it's in the village there was a lot of discussion of this it's one of the criteria and the option of going through that neighborhood was not an option come with clover lane there was no easement for pedestrian access there for utilities there was an easement for sewer but no pedestrian access so the option of following Perry Hill Road came to be part of the discussion and one of the reasons is that the Mount Mansfield Electric Railway came from Pilgrim Industrial Park up through the Woodriff's property if those of you who know Skipps and Judy Woodriff's parcel which is just to the lower right corner of this map where they passed your beef cattle for many years and came through and aligned with this the entrance into this development and then followed the south and southwest side of Perry Hill Road just outside of the town road right away and then it went basically where Billings Mobile is now an up-long route 100 and headed north towards Stowe so the idea came to provide a pedestrian path to connect to this development water very certified water and sewer to the village sidewalk system and Paul are not the developer to construct the path the town would provide materials and there are two landowners currently there's Brian Mac who's basically at the corner of Lincoln Street Perry Hill Road in the Nils who purchased a lot from Kingsbury's and the existing house and the owners at that time offered to provide an easement to for this a permanent easement for this path so we had some subsequent discussion of how this path might be constructed and maintained when we met with a select board before a couple years ago there was a lot of concern about maintenance especially winter maintenance so we had a conversation with Don out of the site we can have a little more conversation I think the the intent of this path was constructed is that the town would not be responsible for winter maintenance but might be responsible for periodic upgrade it would be gravel path or crushed stone path the surfacing could possibly be reclaimed asphalt and we had a bill would have this been involved Bill and I met out recently with with Don at the site so without a thank you can speak from the residence perspective and we can get it to a little bit more detail oh sorry yep I simply put where we're here to advocate for a path for ourselves as Steve said they're about half of the homes built now out of the plant 26 there are 30 some people that live in the homes from people in their 70s and we're all walking on Perry Hill Road to get to the village or to get to the parking right for commuting or to get to Shaw's on a daily basis and there are a lot of neighbors here I'm sure they could speak to this better than I can and I know there are also some neighbors that aren't here tonight that would have been here but for plans and being out of town but essentially I've been talking with Steve with the neighbors Bill what he trying to get over that hurdle of I think when this came up a few years ago like Steve said there was an issue of who's paying for materials who's responsible for maintenance so on and so forth and our approach is we'd like to all be in this together and we're certainly willing to contribute as I understand it the zoning permit for development has a condition that basically says a developer will build the path in other words provide the manpower by the machine if the town provides the material so with that in mind we know that the machine and manpower is is available and is ready to build a path if the materials can be provided so we have been talking about how do we how do we get over that hurdle and not make this a big investment for liability for the town some gravel bases needed according to what he probably reclaimed road millings for a good stable surface that will endure over time and lessen the maintenance costs on that with the ultimate objective of deeming that to the town for long-term maintenance except for winter maintenance as Steve said we would assume the responsibility as homeowners for winter maintenance and looking at this it looks like there are four spots where culverts are needed and so we're committed to actually providing the funds necessary to purchase the culverts sitting the conservative estimate what he came up with that thousand dollars so the way we see it is we'd like to all go in together on this my wife works at home they can get lonely working at home so she finds herself in the village very often during the week just to break the monotony and go work at the coffee shop or use this beautiful facility here or we go to the store look at the farmers market as I said people go to the park and ride I think there are plenty of people here that could speak to the level of use that that this would get and I think probably Steve could speak to how this really fits in with a lot of planning over the past few years connecting Stowe Street to get across 100 eventually hopefully connecting Stowe Street in the rest of the village Holyville this it really meshes with that and I think I've said nothing less people have questions for me specifically and happy to let you hear from my neighbors that we're able to make it yes I'm just a little confused as to where the path would go it's a sidewalk so this I can't tell yeah this is right here this has a black wine yeah so it's about 800 feet of right I'm sorry I didn't explain that very thoroughly it's hard to see but the beginning of this is called name of slain as you go up Harry Hill wrote it's first right and so it would go from the intersection of made a slain in Perry Hill Road down to the intersection of Perry Hill Road and Lincoln Street and at that point there would need to be a crosswalk and the village sidewalk you can see the white line on the north side of Lincoln Street comes up just short of that intersection of Lincoln Street and Perry Hill Road so it would be approximately 800 feet in length and the right away for the path would essentially be adjacent to or just outside of the town road right away so you have a town you have a ditch you got the path you have drainage behind the path that would be handled by the culverts and you think you need four right one of the two in the middle is what we anticipated so again before you ask a lot of questions just a little bit more on on the background don't talk about the fact when this was first raised the select board express concern about winter maintenance and we have the we have the same concerns as we did before and it's I think one of the reasons that Don said that the homeowners might be willing to to do the winter maintenance we had this conversation a little bit a few months ago when we were talking about the Colbyville sidewalk project we're already a little bit challenged in the number of sidewalks that we have to plow and just getting to all of them and 800 feet doesn't sound like a lot but you know it's 800 feet already kind of far away from the village and there's only one time that you're going to be conveniently in that area the other issue is that with the path being gravel material or some kind of aggregate you know plowing it putting a snowblower on it you just risk damage to the to the machine so that was the the concern about the winter maintenance I think the if you could order them the concern it's just another 800 feet that we have to get to is probably a bigger issue than damaging the machine once the material freezes it's pretty unlikely that you're going to do a lot of damage so that was one issue the second issue in a sense maybe is going away now that the village is almost gone another month while the village exists this this land was annexed into the village a number of years ago and the main reason it was annexed into the village was to provide sewer service there the village under its current charter found that it was very difficult to sell sewage outside of its limits so the policy that the trustees had was if you want sewage you need to be in the village and back in the day when the village had its own street department maybe it followed that there might be a sidewalk that comes a lot but the village had already given up its street department the town was responsible for the streets and sidewalks at the time so this development in the village just like the one across route 100 that Salvis is building now that during the government coming years ago that's in the village but it doesn't have any sidewalk facilities that that connect to the existing facility a third issue that was raised by the select board in that time was well you know why why is it up to the town to construct be involved in construction of the sidewalk if somebody wants to build a development they should build the infrastructure necessary and then turn it over to the town the villages in that kind of skirmish right now in terms of taking over the sewage in this in this development and we don't need to get into that but it is common for a developer to build a road and build it to standards and build a sewer system and build it to standards or a sidewalk to standards and then turn that over to the municipality and in this case I think it was just kind of you knew the the rail bed was there and it might provide a good base for a sidewalk and you offered out this bargain maybe that well it was discussed and Paul Paul was the one who offered the bargain to be honest it was discussed as an access from this property to you know to Lincoln Street and I think Paul knowing that the town wasn't that we would not build it he offered to build it if we would provide material so clearly there's that there would be a cost the taxpayer of the materials and that that guy incorporated we was things were moving very quickly so we didn't for better force we didn't bring it to the select board at the time but it was built into the decision right and then when it was brought to the select board it was a different time there were a lot of other issues irons and fires so to speak with the flood recovery and all and it was turned down for that in a variety of other reasons just for your information because we don't have the ground asphalt grindings as readily is available as we once did I think when this proposal was first made we had a mountain of it down at the ice but we use that material especially when we do paving projects we use that material to build shoulders of alongside of newly paved roads so we don't have a lot of that ground asphalt right now we're in discussions with the contractor who's doing group 100 to see if you know if they have any that they don't want might we get some that's a possibility I did ask Bill Woodruff the Public Works Director to come up with some estimates of this cost using crushed gravel which would probably be the more expensive of the options if we got the grindings for nothing and didn't have to pay for them it's just the trucking so Bill has estimated about a hundred and thirty two yards of gravel five feet wide six hundred and fifty feet in length and about a foot deep and he says you know depending upon what we find is a what the people building it find is a sub base you might have to add a little bit more there so doing the math that that's about twelve hundred ninety so say thirteen hundred dollars for the gravel the culverts somewhere between seven hundred eighty and a thousand dollars and as Don said the homeless association has expressed the willingness to pay for the culverts reimbursed the town for them we would buy them because we have access to better pricing but they've offered to reimburse so he does expect that about 60 feet of culverts so four of them probably involved but 60 feet of 18 inch diameter culvert and then he said some culverts might need to be 24 feet in length at $20 a foot and he's already built in some extra for the gravel so the cost the direct cost to the town isn't really the big issue that you need to think about obviously it's a it's a cost twelve hundred and say thirteen hundred dollars worth of gravel it's not a huge cost so I really don't think cost is the issue the other issues that present right now we don't own that right away has to the people to the Brian and Brian Mac and the Nittles or the Nittles do they own that in fee I mean there's no residual right away from the old railroad company right there's no residual right away Paul or not has offered to do the legal work to have the easements drafted and then we would have some quality full well some cost to have an attorney Jeff Kovar or somebody review those on behalf of the town so there would be some legal cost with the drafting would be his expense that's our understanding so I appreciate you coming down Don and the neighbors as well I was here when we had the discussion last time with Paul or not you know Bill just spoke of the thirteen hundred dollars for the materials I think what soured the deal last time is that the desire from the Association of the development to have the town take it over right now we're currently understaffed when it comes to taking care of what we have in this town we don't we don't have number one the time or the actual funding we need to bring a lot of our infrastructure up to power where we realistically should be and to take on you know something else just adds to it and bills like I get back to bills the thirteen hundred dollars just a few minutes ago we discussed re-upping a contract for Wi-Fi for the town which is a five-year contract amounts to 700 bucks a year and then the last like board meeting we also authorize the spending for the money to put up a speedlight upon up in Waterbury Center so yes he's right all those things are not a lot of money but I'll refer to it in the analogy of Irene with just a lot of drops and then there was the flood I had a gal come down to my house today to buy four bales of hay and I asked her what she was doing with it she says I'm finishing up some landscaping around the house and then the house is going on the market these are some people that I've known for a long time and she said we can't we can't afford to live here anymore we're leaving we're going to North Carolina and they don't want to leave but so there's some issues not only in this town but statewide that a lot of the people here that been here a long time and other people newcomers and such that I realize in that it's just cost too much to live here anymore in the last three years the town has been able to kind of flat line our municipal tax rate at 45 cents we've been fortunate to do that I don't know that will be that fortunate in the years to come but with all the other considerations that we have coming down the pike I think I have some reluctance to take this on as a responsibility of the municipality I don't know how the rest of the board feels way I look at it we just it's just another thing we got to deal with now I might be receptive to allowing you know if the rest of the board agreed to provide the materials one-time deal to get this thing off the ground I would ask that you and the association maybe consider managing it summer and winter after that because I think that if we take on at least the summer maintenance of it that at some point down the road will be asked to do more and then more and then more and I just I'm typically the bad guy on the board and I'm not afraid to do that because I know what a lot of people are up against in this town because I've been here for a very long time and I've seen a lot of my friends leave and it's getting to the point where people have just had enough even $1,300 is just too much you know so perhaps you would consider maybe going a step further I there's for the town to take on the responsibility to maintain that stretch even during the summer it's nothing I'm even interested remotely interested in doing and again I speak for myself so I'll listen to the rest of the board and see what they have to say I I can't disagree with the points that that Chris raised we've we've had a lot of issues with the existing sidewalks and the level of disrepair with those this year we're trying to with the highway budget trying to address some of those as well as some of the delayed maintenance that we have on the primary highways in the town I do think a middle ground area if the homeowners Association was able to provide for the maintenance of that stretch instead of having the right away go to the town that it go to the homeowners Association I certainly think that if we can provide the material for getting that start getting it established and properly laid out but then having the homeowners Association incorporate that along with I presume that you you cover the roadway maintenance as well and perhaps some other things the Association responsible for the roads in the development and the storm and they will be once the developer turns those over they'll be owned by the Association as common common and the Association would also be responsible for maintaining the common land essentially probably brush hopping the map one thing to think about though Steve said the path does cross the max property and I know the concept that was signed on to initially those property owners was conveying an easement right away to town I don't know what their comfort level would be conveying that to a homeowners Association because liability purposes and so on and so forth with the town is a different sort of entity they may not have the same comfort level I can't speak to that I haven't spoke with Brian Matt I did speak with Kathy Niddle this past weekend she's very supportive of the concept that we've been discussing they would obviously use it too I think and I appreciate what Chris said and some of the some of that same information has been shared in conversations with me with Dawn as well and I'm I'm not trying to minimize even the summer maintenance but you know the the path the the big expense ongoing will be the maintenance of the culverts and potentially you know cleaning the ditch out we already have to clean the ditch from time to time long peri-hill anyway so that's not going to do anymore the culverts I assume will be plastic culverts they have a pretty long life expectancy I think part of the reason these folks were asking to do this is that a side effect if you will or a result of this is there there may be less cars driving on the road and putting wearing tear there if the homeowners Association wanted to take it over completely and be responsible for it obviously that would be the least expensive for the town I'm I'm not sure that I would want the right away not to be the town's even if the current select board decided you know once this gets built we're really not going to do anything to it except for emergency work and you know they can go out with a rake once in a while and level it up if they have to but if we're going to put any money into it at all 12 $1,300 it should be into a town right away we should not get into the habit of saying they'll provide even $1,300 to private individual to upgrade their own properties so I wouldn't do it at all unless we had the right way and then the board can in the future make the decision whether or not we need to maintain anything certainly if there was a big storm and you know water rushed down that ditch line and and washed it out well then you have the concern do we have to put it back so just some thoughts well I'll jump in the mix yeah it's I think it's unfortunate that this wasn't addressed as much during the permitting period but I do want to say one thing I think when we talk about affordability in the town and why our tax rate has been able to maintain its flat position is the growth of the grand list and this is a great example of a project that I feel is good for the town overall and at an average of $350,000 25 houses or whatever it is it's about 8.4 million dollars to the grand list so I think that's a really important thing when we talk about affordability supply and demand is a big problem in the state we are we have too few rental units we have too few residential units and then we don't have enough tax dollars to help pay for what we do so I think that we have to be understanding that there is certain growth that's going to be good for this town and hopefully help our coffers but also help with the supply and demand issues that are currently in this in the state and in this town in terms of my opinion on the path I guess I want to talk a little bit bigger picture before I specifically say my position on this I think $1,300 it's about $50 per house so I think that ask is I mean I don't really understand necessarily why we throw in for that but I do think that we need to have a plan because I do think it's important as we grow out of the village that we have safe pathways to downtown that people have the option to not jump in their cars I've talked about it before with the 60 units on Blush Hill doesn't really help our downtown parking problem because everyone jumps in their cars to drive downtown so here is a path to get these residents to what is I believe a sidewalk there on Lincoln Street so I think the idea of a path and I'm assuming there will be continued growth up Perry Hill there are some large parcels of land going up Perry Hill that you know for all intents and purposes could and most likely will be developed in the future so I don't know what to do with this but I'm interested in understanding you know there had to be moments in this town or village that expansion occurred and we made the decision as a town to put in the paths and who paid for those paths and what were the agreements in those scenarios you know this project is kind of rare I think in terms of in the past I don't know 20 years has there been a project similar to this touching the village that we could compare to how we dealt with the pedestrian access of it no we really don't have that example at all as I said the development across route 100 upon the hill is in the village but again that's in the village so it could get sewer the development that Carla lives in up behind Ben and Jerry's was a next into the village to get sewer they don't have any other village amenities so to speak sidewalks and you know I don't think there may be a few people in the room that were here but you know Butler and Waller Street when they were built I think the sidewalks down they were put in with the 1970s on East Street which is another more recent development you know in the last 60 70 years or whatever there's a sidewalk that just goes a little way up East Street and the people who live out toward Clover Lane don't have a sidewalk they don't believe there's not a sidewalk on East Street until you get pretty close to Stowe Street about half yeah so you know I don't I don't know the answer to that question mark question mark and you know your your point about $50 per house is true I think we're here because the conversation happened at the development review board it came up and Mr. are not I'm not suggesting that he's you know trying to do things on the cheap but he's trying to develop a parcel of property and he's trying to he's trying to make a profit on his development so I think what he threw out according to Steve is yeah well that that railroad path is there if we can get the town the right away and if the town will provide the gravel I'll build it so that was where the town get looped into this a different you could ask your question the other way you know should it be a town right of way to put the sidewalk there and then make the developer or their homeowners pay for the whole thing it's not a huge cost but as I said before and has been pointed out corollary to what you just said you know that eight point whatever billion dollars for those 26 homes that's a private road so we don't even have to plow that road or do any maintenance on the road so compared to other places in the village there's no differentiation so anyway we got here because are not said if you supply the materials I'll build that's really why we're here so point taken mark on the grand list deal I agree with the fact that the grand list it helps the grand list I think this is our first year that we were able to actually double the paving CIP in this town from what has been attempted to put in 300 and something thousand a year and sometimes haven't even reached that that marker to now doubling it to 660 this year which is still you know we're still way behind I'm re-grabbling a road across from Grenier's vegetable stand as we speak basically and the people owners of that development will have an excessive $15,000 in that road I know it's not a path but you know they're carrying their own burden there with no expectation of the rest of the town to help out as well as other developments you guys on the Ring Road burden pretty much your cost up there I mean the town grades twice a year it's a class four town road they have to their responsibility is to maintain the ditches and culverts but they do exceed that by grading at least once or twice a year there so this is a difficult difficult subject there's a lot of private developments in this town none of which have come in front of us to ask for such a free quest and again I guess the big sticking point is the consideration for town maintenance you know the long-term putting the town on the hook for any form of responsibility to this pathway do we have any kind of estimate of what that would be time frame and cost if we had a best guess Steve I think the annual maintenance of a gravel path like this is is not that great I think what tends to happen is you tend to get especially in the state age severe storms and then you've got an expense to repair that road I know we worked on Ring Road for instance after severe storms and other infrastructure you know town infrastructure but I think that you know Bill made the point well what happens when when a culvert gets damaged or the path gets washed out so so I think the annual maintenance is something that probably you know that just raking up half this is not that that great I think I would like to point out that we dealt with this issue in other contexts only though in particular where properties are not directly accessed to the path to the village sidewalk system I think that's the challenge here it's relatively close but there's the access for other properties and I think that's why Paul offered the town could get involved because it wasn't his property where this improvement would be made in the case of Shaw's they funded the first study we did in Colbyville to look at pedestrian access that would tie the Colbyville area into the village sidewalk system and now we're finally at point of doing the first small step to accomplish that so I think it's a balancing act Chris I think there's there's no clear answer to these things I think when when development of this density is close to the sidewalk system I think it's important to try to figure out a safe solution for these people to access access the sidewalk system and I think it's you know we had to have finding solutions I know the Waterbury area trails Alliance is very interested in developing past systems in Waterbury and you know we're having conversations now with them about other ways to accomplish this so maybe some further discussion can be had as far as how we would orchestrate agreement I think the last thing to throw the one last monkey wrench into this when the four of us went and and took a walk and looked at this path Don Bill Woodruff Steve and myself the path up where it connects the road going into the development is relatively flat and as you move toward Perry Hill and you especially you get on to land here you know the slope comes down rather steeply and very close to Perry Hill Road now and it's conceivable that you would in some of those areas to get a path in there and to protect it you'd have to maybe build small retaining walls on the on the upper side of the path then those kind of things just add to the down the road the expenses so you know I would say to build the path I don't know how much it's gonna take to build it you know we certainly wouldn't have to worry about rushing it out there's a lot of trees in there that would have to be removed in order to put the path in but if you have to get in and build some retaining walls just to hold that banking back well that's something over time they shift they move you know water freeze thaw whatever so there's some unknowns here but you know it's I don't I wouldn't expect in you know the next 20 years I don't think would double the amount that we're talking about now this is about a 2,000 $2,500 project for these materials I'm not talking about the construction of it just the materials but my guess is that once it's built if it's built well it would probably be okay there's not a big there's not a big stream of water that's going to be coming down that hillside it's not a lot of attention for major washouts clean the culverts out from time to time but if a retaining wall that's just one more kind of thing that you have to drive through the hole so I need to ask you Don do you guys have a legally drafted association agreement amongst the residents there is it do you pay monthly dues and I have a subdivision in Shaw mansion and I drafted up a set of covenants and everybody pays a quarterly fee to maintain the road systems up there and whatever else yeah but do you guys have to pay any form of fee for maintenance for yeah okay we pay for the road supposed to be graded tomorrow gets great every year my looks to the road it's gonna need to be our road I'm talking about now the private road it's not the town's responsibility it's ours responsibility when the residents don't fully understand or appreciate how that works but I know how that works by looks at that road it's probably gonna need to be resurfaced you know at some kind of relatively soon I'm not real happy about that because there are some issues that could have been done better let's just say that right yes we do that we will be paying for the storm water infrastructure maintenance we pay an annual fee for the state operational permit in the inspection by the engineer if the culvert is clogged in that system we're gonna have to clean that out if the pond is filled with sediment we're you know how all that works so that's all on us none of that's on the town 26 homes people that are in the village every day spending money I think that goes for anybody here that lives in the town he does I understand what you're saying but your perspective tonight have to say that I hope I'm here and a lot of us hope that we're here for a long time so if we can if there is a middle ground here I guess is there the ability for the town to in the consideration for the association to take this ball and run with it on their own with maybe some product from the town without being on the hook for any form of maintenance or is that just not well then that's you're empowered to make that decision my recommendation would be if we're going to contribute materials or money to the project that it should be a town owned right away you don't have to agree with my recommendation if you want to make a motion to just provide the material or provide them with you know two thousand dollars for the material and let them go on do it you can do that if you want but I'm just looking down the road when we sit across the table from the next developer if it's not a town right away I'm not sure why we're contributing anything right now I'll agree with that I would agree with that and I also think that it's it's a unique situation or it's an opportunity that you have willing landowners who are butters who are willing to participate in this and in the big picture planning you know we're at the edge of the village as Mark stated it's a safety issue you have 26 homes young and old people willing to or wishing to walk to an existing sidewalk system so I guess I would support also if we're gonna pay town that the easements be acquired as part of it so it's a town right away I think there's some safety issues there would be addressed by having a sidewalk there I know that we I appreciate that we're underfunded and not only road maintenance but in sidewalk maintenance and I believe Steve you told me that we pay $10,000 a year to maintain sidewalks is a budget something like that my understanding is we have a budget of $10,000 for constructing sidewalk in the downtown as part of the downtown but I'm not sure we have seven miles to sidewalk so maintenance cost is probably great we have more than $10,000 in the budget to help build and repair sidewalks we do a lot of maintenance on the winter maintenance of course we were trying to one of the sidewalks that we hope to get to this year is the Winooski Street sidewalk that we've heard about a couple of times in the past several months so yeah there it's this but I understand I appreciate that it's a struggle because we we just don't have the funds to maintain where we would so I guess I would support funding this the town making a gravel or whatever stay mat type surface and looking to see if the private development would pay for summer maintenance as well so me from the public wish to speak my name is Lucy Roy I just wanted to thank you for listening to us first but also just reinforce the point like for safety reasons we really need this sidewalk I have two young kids five and two my son's gonna start kindergarten this fall I am hoping for him to be able to walk to school using that sidewalk and also I mean Tara and I just walked here today for this meeting and it's impossible to walk like two adults side-by-side having a good conversation on on the Perry Hill because the traffic is so fast and it's such as a narrow sidewalk that having it where the railroad bed used to be is actually a great benefit for safety reasons because the traffic is so fast coming around that tour that corner so even though it might involve building a retaining wall I think moving it a little bit further away from the Perry Hill is actually the best and the safest path forward very looking forward to use my tax dollars to build this path took that time to come here tonight it's my first tell meeting but really really feeling strongly about this thank you so much thank you hi my name is Tara Desick and I'm also a resident of Waterbury Commons and as Lucy said we walked down here tonight and I walk into Waterbury probably at least four to five times throughout the week I also have two little kids I have a six-year-old and a 20-month-old now and I have to say I understand the 800 feet to a cost and in the pain in the butt with the maintenance and whatnot and to manage for the city seems like a lot but it's also I'm a lot if you consider the safety reasons I actually before I even knew that this path was considered I came here to meet with came here to find someone to figure out how to put a stop sign on Lincoln Street where you take a right to Perry Hill Road and then I learned about the path that had been discussed and I was like wow that'd be brilliant it would it would really help a lot because literally people go so fast so I really think it's as you know being here as a representative of the neighborhood and also a village taxpayer I would hope that you guys would consider you know this proposal Everett. I'm from Wondersky Street and I know that Chris said he's the bad guy on the board I don't continue to be a bad guy on the board I think you're a guy that's looking out for the residents of the community the reality affordability in common sense and Mr. Shepulok mentioned that Manuski Street was going to be dealt with I believe and that's something I complained about my wife fell here ago had four facial fractures and I'm not against the philosophy of the project but as Mark Mateo said and Chris Viennes could be one thing after another now we've got the speed tables on Randall Street we've got them over here by Zachary's and what's next and going way back to probably half you people hadn't even twinkled somebody's eye I was here and elderly Mr. Davis who lived up the other end where the farm is beyond Morris like his father I believe at tell meeting numerous times and talked about the cost of the recreation and whatever it was going to be and people some agreed some disagreed but look at the what we're doing now and it's it's good and we're supporting a lot of teams a lot of events and so forth but we need to take a high look of being able to maintain our roads on a bottomless hill the other night and you'll need to hang out of the steering wheel if not you're going to be over on the passenger side and the sidewalks in some places are bad I noticed that you did enough today yesterday whenever fix wake him up the Congress no church and you feel some cracks here and there probably including out here but we need to take a look and I really appreciate Chris Viennes philosophy and others that feel the same way in some respects we just can't keep going and buying and buying and buying and I'll have the money to pay for and frankly I don't think it would be a bad thing he's not doing that project lose money that project to make money thank you perhaps I will talk to this and Roland I lived in early 60s development often downline road whether the homeowners association came in and wanted something similar to this and it was done following you not the year they requested it but I think you need to take a little more in-depth look I think that mark over there has philosophy of the tax income is a good point but I think there's enough unknowns and areas in our community that need attention worse than going to a little river or going to the commas at the present time not to be disrespectful to anybody but we just have a slight difference of opinion thank you I think I just want to know one of the proposals was we give them the time material right materials materials and then we also keep up maintenance for winter the original yes and it was proposed also that the town homeowners pay for summer maintenance as well that's a second proposal that was discussed okay that's correct yeah yeah but you know the catch 22 to that is if the town does something like that you know will somebody from Thatcher Brook Road or Ring Road or something like that say you know you gave these guys materials now why aren't you giving us materials so that's the only sticking that's the only sticking point to that they just came to my mind there while we were having this discussion I'm thinking myself yeah I'm going to get my astute by somebody that says you need these people materials to do a walking path and I live on a road that's I pay privately for and you know I mean so it's it's a being up here isn't all ice cream and cookies I'll tell you that so I don't know I just I just want to know if like what would be the like the least expensive way to solve if I were having to deal with this situation that's just me I would deal with it myself that's just because of the type of person I am I don't like to burden my neighbors with anything that I wish to have but that's just the way I was raised you know the town should in my opinion the municipality has a limit to what it should be doing for his residents and then from that point on they should take the bull by the horns and anything additional you know to me this it's that's their bag and like Everett said I mean we've got other issues that not only are coming I mean this is the first night I've seen a lot of new faces here so I mean we've go through issues meeting after meeting about problems that we have in the town and once and when there's an occasion where there's a specific issue we see strangers come in who wish to have their issue addressed so it's a big pot of a lot of different people who don't see each other throughout the meetings over the course of the year so you know we're having to deal with everybody coming in and wanting their little slice of the pie and at some point it just becomes overwhelming when we've already got so many responsibilities so sure is there a scenario that the town could the right of ways could happen the town takes ownership of it and the Waterbury Commons takes over maintenance summer winter for at least a period of ten years or something to make sure that it can survive the weather and how it was built I think I understand I was thinking five years but I'm thinking the same I hate saying the comment of that the road that's in the Waterbury Commons which I do I think that that is the public private partnership there is important and I think that if you look at if you were to try to create 24 houses along the road that we would we would maintain and build this is again not as much burden as another project of building roads that all had curb cuts or whatever else on a single road so I think that I am and that the opportunity to get these right a ways to 24 houses I think is important but I I do understand the fiscal responsibility that we sit with every time we were up here making decisions so my question would be is is there a scenario that we can take the right away we request maintenance summer winter for a period of five years and then the town reviews whether or not they're willing to take over the maintenance from that point forward or you talking about also providing the gravel no I I I'm personally it's $1,300 I think that I do agree that the risk that we take of greenlighting that we're willing to pay for these materials I think unfortunately I would hope that Bob might be willing to make that investment I think that that's my question as we look forward to all these other the growth I think growth is important but how are we connecting these new projects to the main municipality for me if I if I had a house and I have to deal with that on my road to but you know 50 bucks that you have to throw in additionally for material per house I think that is reasonable to get the path and but I do think that the town needs to step up and say we're willing to hold the right away and make this connection that safe I end up right now on Perry Hill regularly because of the construction and I understand the speed concern coming around that corner and knowing that there's that many number of homes that are potentially putting pedestrians on Perry Hill I think is is risky and dangerous so I think having the opportunity to get those folks off of Perry Hill is important so if that's the consensus of the board and it isn't yet but if what Mark just said is the consensus that town express a willingness to accept the right away and then the construction of the path is up to the developer slash homeowners association and there could be some review of the town taking over maintenance at some point in the future if the homeowners association and the developer are willing to have that conversation I think that's something that you know staff can work with and come back I mean this was a 20 minute issue on the agenda and it's already been 40 minutes or more and you know just to I have a question just to move it along I think that would be something that I could work with I can't speak for those folks just there were 26 lots how many are actually occupied with paying customers so right now you have a 14 families on to just try to put this to summation the discussion we had on the right-of-way issue was that was it are not's attorney was willing to draw up the initial language right that's what offer was right they would pay for the easements and then we would review it we would review that that aspect of it if the right-of-way became the town's right-of-way and the homeowners association did the initial build-out with are not and their own contributions and then as Mark discussed the window of say five years for a review to ensure the the quality of the walkway as it was made because we certainly don't want to be in a position where we green light the process and then in two years we've got to reconstruct the whole thing but that window of time whether it's five years or ten years as Mark mentioned gives us the opportunity to do the catch-up on the projects that we're being overwhelmed with right now so I think that direction is certainly a direction worth exploring I just have a quick question could we still explore this option of getting the asphalt grinding because I think that would be an economical way to help get the project and that would be at no cost well there would be tracking costs perhaps we don't know the details but I think okay there needs to be some room for some opportunity to try to find some low lower cost materials well we the direction I mean if the sense of the board is what you and Mark just said I would leave the materials completely out of it right now this this assumes crushed gravel so this is kind of the highest price and as Mark said it's still yeah the culverts and this together it's you know two thousand to twenty five hundred dollars and I would leave the discussions of the materials out if we can facilitate that but if the board wants to go in the direction that you're talking about I would leave the materials out of it and just give clear direction about negotiating with the right you know just to be clear if if the homeowners Association Paul came up with a easement language would have our attorney do that make sure it's okay I would also review with our attorney all right you know how do you feel about a tunnel right away that has something built by private entities that the private entities are responsible for maintaining you know what's our liability and stuff like that but if this is the way you know that you want to go I guess it's the way you want to go well in that case the materials I guess if they could get a deal on the grindings that's up to them right you just think it's simple for what mark and mark expressed I would just leave mention of materials okay I mean I'm kind of softening up to Mark Fryer's idea here a little bit obviously we'll review the contract and its specifics when it yeah you know five years to get us out of the quagmire of infrastructure issues we have I think is a little bit aggressive maybe has tenure window yeah probably he's closer even if then because as the grand list grows then so does more complications that you haven't said boo well I share a lot of a lot of bits and pieces of what everybody said but I do you know I I'm pretty close to this one and that I feel like you know the developer built this thing with a with an idea of pedestrian access and when that when that idea didn't pan out because maybe it just wasn't thought through correctly you know this was the second ditch effort this was like okay what am I gonna do now if you know I'm selling these things and people don't want to walk down the middle of a busy road I don't blame them the fact of the matter is all these people are here all these people are paying into the tax system they're their neighbors of ours they're they're part of our town we got to do everything we can to provide them safe access to downtown that being said I've lived on a street for 18 years with half a sidewalk but I haven't complained loud enough to the right people to make that any different so I mean I would be in favor of this I mean obviously we're entering into a relationship here with somebody where we're gonna say yeah you can go ahead and build this path but you need to prove to us that it's gonna work and that's the thing so I'm I'm comfortable going in that direction as long as we can get everybody to you know get the contractual language so that everyone's happy liability wise yeah I would imagine it would have to be maintained to a certain level and if we ever make a decision that it's not then it'd be up to them to be required to remove the path or make it impassable or whatever yada yada yada but I imagine enough to formulate a motion well I think sure I got one more request here to speak speaking of paths it's just a real quick question to Steve and you all about my name is Bill Minter I live on Guptell Road this quick question is as Bill said we're here because Mr. Arnott made an offer you guys put the materials up I'll build the road is what's being discussed here going to meet his expectation or is that going to be the offer that he made here a thing we're not going to put up the materials but we want you to build the road etc and I have the impression that you think that he will think this is still the deal that he spoke of but I it's not clear to me if he's still going to be willing to build the road under these circumstances I think the expectation is that what Mark and Mark have stated is that the homeowners association will help Mr. Arnott come up with the materials that the town isn't going to do it so maybe Mr. Arnott will do it on his own maybe the homeowners association people who live there have to do it but the town has expressed concerns about the precedent being set providing materials for I got to believe that missed if Mr. Arnott has any clue at all he'll realize that this is gone you know based on the motion being made at least a little bit step closer in his direction so mr. Friar thank you I'll make a motion that the town works to enter into an agreement to hold easements for access of is it called Perry Hill Commons Waterbury Commons for a pedestrian path that they would maintain build and maintain through work with the developer yeah and details TVD is there a second second time no further discussion all those in favor say aye okay appreciate everybody coming sorry sorry couldn't do more for you at this time but that's politics it's an inch of an inch a year okay rule 100 bike lane discussion mr. Bellevue what do you got for us to a meeting I believe it was either your late March early April up in stow it was a project meeting prior to all the construction activity and one of the questions that I that I asked at that time and I've been watching this project very very careful some of you may recall I was one of the people that advocated for getting the turn signal installed at Gupt Hill Road so I'm following this project very very closely and one of the questions I asked was as part of finishing up of the 100 reclaimed project and all the work that's been done on the interchange with 89 if there were going to be bike lanes that were going to strike in on the bridge over route 100 as it crosses interstate 89 and I was asked by project engineer to follow up I followed up and I was informed oh that no we're not going to do that and the town has decided that you gotta use Stow Street instead that's the alternative and I said well who made that decision so well select work you make decisions for the town's transportation facilities and I basically started to challenge that whole supposition this idea that Stow Street was a viable and better alternative for cyclists and to go over route 100 route 100 is a far better facility it's it's it there's there's lots and lots of right away there and the condition of it is very very good certainly the condition of route 100 when it's finished will rival the maintenance condition of any road in the town of Waterbury without doubt certainly a lot better than my street I can tell you that so what I'm here tonight for is I want to advocate for the town to support my requests to get bike lanes striped across the on and the off-ramps that's really all I'm asking for there's no additional right-of-way that's necessary the quality of the facility is fine I've had discussions with various people at the trans about the improvements that are planned for route 100 in terms of you know the wide shoulders and I know talking to John Kaplan who's the bike head coordinator for the trans there are going to be some bike lanes that are going to be striped in different sections of the road I think that's all great I think this is a great project and it's going to be a wonderful facility when it's done all I want are some bike lanes to be striped across the on and off ramps and the reasons are simple it does a couple of things number one it clues the cyclist in to where they're supposed to go it also alerts the motorists that this is where the cyclist is going to go and it's going to alert them that oh yeah there's going to be a cyclist out there because you see we get this lane that's striped right there on the road so it does all of those things and you know one of the things that I'm that I'm aware of is several years ago the state legislature passed Act 34 which says that all transportation facilities have to be built to accommodate all users whenever feasible and so I'm a cyclist I use this facility I'm making the the assertion that these improvements are feasible I also think it's going to enhance the safety and usability of the roadway for cyclists and there are a lot of cyclists here in town cycling is a big thing it's a big part of our economy what the water very and for stow it's a big part of what people are doing not only to exercise but to get around and I think this would provide a very a viable aspect to that I will say and finally one last thing one of my primary objections to this idea that Stow Street becomes a viable alternative is if you say that that's what I'm supposed to do so what you're saying is for me to get from my house and what a very center to right where we are right now what I would have to do as I come down route 100 is I would have to move over from the right-hand side of the road cross an entire lane of traffic about 16,000 trips a day and get into the left-turn lane the left-turn lane that is going to take left-hand turners going into the shell station so I may be getting into a lane and facing a car head-on now my little you know 24 pound bike is going to be no match against the 3,500 to 4,500 pound motor vehicle and that's a very dangerous situation and I won't do it and I did it once I did it once with John Kaplan in a low volume situation we did it just to test it out but there's no way I would ever do it again there's no way I never advocate anybody else do it again it's it's crazy so so that's that's my that's my my pitch and I'm asking for support from the select board on this question how does it work with the roundabout for bikes or cyclists works like a dream the roundabout is designed for cyclists one of the one of the things about if you look at traffic engineering one of the biggest challenging challenges is the left-hand turn and that's one of the things that around about eliminates left-hand turns the roundabout is just one big giant left but you know it's it's all just one direction the roundabout properly designed roundabout like we have here at Waterbury the angle of deflection as you enter the roundabout forces the motorist to slow down and so I can tell you that for me and I think for a lot of cyclists I can get in the roundabout and I can travel pretty much at the same speed of a car going around that and you know once I were to yield in there nobody would experience any disruption whatsoever so the roundabout works great well there are also wider sidewalks around the roundabout that have angled angled sidewalks off the road specifically for cyclists to exit the road to get out of the roundabout and go around using the sidewalk not be with traffic correct correct so I think it supports your point about that if the roundabouts design for cyclists it supports your argument that the cyclists would prefer coming down route 100 going around the roundabout and down Main Street versus going on Stowe Street so I don't recall that we ever I have a feeling this decision was sort of made by default because I don't recall us as a select board ever preferring Stowe Street for cyclists over over route 100 I don't know it just think did this just happen sort of by default it didn't happen so I'm here just to kind of set the record straight most of what Ken said I agree with so the select board and Barbara's here she probably give you a chronology the select board did ask V-trans to strike route 100 for cycling the route 100 project is not our project it's a state project we had input into it I was at the same meeting that Ken was at in Stowe when he asked the question the select board asked the state to include the traffic light at Guptell Road that's been incorporated into the plans so the the conversation about Stowe Street never came before the select board and I don't know where that how that got communicated to you I had a conversation with Bill Woodruff when we heard that there was no striping on route 100 below Stowe Street and Bill Woodruff talked to me and just said well you know when we were kids we were told by our parents to stay off the ramp that was part of the interstate we shouldn't go on the ramp there was a conversation about that and I think somebody said well you know maybe they should go down Stowe Street but I want to be clear the select board that never came to the select board and I don't believe the select board ever ever said that cyclists should use Stowe Street so how that information got out I'm not sure but the select board as far as I know never rescinded the request right you have the date that the letter was written. It was October, mid of October, maybe October 16, 2016 so there were a list of items on the request dealing with the light at Guptell Road, bike lanes all the way up through Traffic Common in Waterbury Center, Loftamptown Lane at Evergreen Gardens and all of those went off to VTRANS to predecessors from you so my follower was the project manager at that time. Subsequent to that there was a decision that was made and I have no notes no written notes no written emails I believe it was at a meeting that some of those items on that list were acceptable to VTRANS and some of those items were beyond their scope or were not preferred items so we got some of what we requested but not all of them. So that was my point that October 2016 statement that the select board made asked for the bicycle striping below Stow Street. VTRANS is the the manager of this project it's their project. I understand that you rode with somebody maybe it was when you were just talking about getting into the left-hand turn lane but I also understand the recommendation from was no striping on below Stow Street so you're here so that that's where we are now we asked the town asked for striping Ken has made his point and it's VTRANS project so. So Barb before we continue here now when we asked for line striping for bicycle lanes didn't agency of transportation tell us that that was they would do that where possible wasn't that the consideration or did they in fact were they able to do it all the way. The compromise on that was because there's a lot of activity over the interstate the on ramps the off ramps Stow Street Blush Hill they there was a compromise at the meeting that we attended and I can't remember exactly who was there I don't think there were minutes for that because I don't have then they would strike the designated bike lanes from Stow Street top Stow Street took up Dill Road but not over the interstate at that time. I have a big truck okay so I know there's a quite a bottleneck in there coming across that bridge over the interstate is that why perhaps they chose okay I didn't know we had a gentleman here from the agency so I'm the project manager on this project I was at I ran the public information meeting so I was there so there are a couple pieces that I do want to clarify and I can definitely answer a bunch of questions anything that may arise the first piece that I'd like to clarify is through our review of the area and through through our expertise within the agency we realize that there are some safety concerns with striking bike lanes through the interstate or through the interchange area it is something that we are concerned with part of that would be if we add striping it looks like we're recommending that we should have bicyclists going through that area that's a that's something that I personally have not very comfortable with so so there is some constraint in that aspect the other piece is as you said you have a large truck and there is a bottleneck so there are some physical constraints heading northbound out of the roundabout up the hill where there's the two lanes before you get to the light to turn left onto southbound we're dealing with a two foot shoulder on the right two eleven foot lanes and a single one foot shoulder on the left-hand side there's guardrail on the right-hand side of the road there's a curb meeting on the left side of the road there cannot be a bike lane through that area it's just it's physically not possible to talk about northbound I'm talking about northbound from the from the roundabout heading northbound yes I'm not sure those facts are correct I wrote down with John Catlin and John took notes and John took photographs and so I have a lot sure that I think that those fact that you have your past right I have a 3d survey of the area I'm pretty confident in that survey so I would say that those lane configurations are quite possibly the true lane configurations I did not wheel it off but it's tight one way or another it is a tight area I don't believe even if we will it off that we would have enough room to place a five foot or even a four foot bike through that area and there is a difference between designating a bike lane and striking the road well has it become a liability issue then at that point once you can we hear from I'll let John come off and answer a couple other pieces to it. So I just want to touch back onto this Stow Street piece. So when we were going through the design process, as Barb had said, there were recommendations. There were a number of things that the town wanted us to include with the project that we had to evaluate. And some pieces did come in based on the scope. Some pieces couldn't come in based on the scope. Part of that list was to look at Striping Bike Lanes heading northbound or looking for an alternative. What we saw is because we weren't terribly comfortable with Striping Bike Lanes through the interchange, we saw Stow Street as a viable option. It's not something that we have necessarily run through the channels yet, but it's something that we would be looking to work with the town on signing, possibly Striping Stow Street as an alternative. Mr. Chair, just after John speaks, my name's Jason Van Reich. I'm with Local Motion, a statewide non-profit bike organization. Been looking closely at this. I have a few thoughts that might be helpful. You've got to jump on the mic if you talk. Because there's people, yeah. After John? Yeah. Go ahead, John. So my name's John Kaplan. And I'm an engineer with B-Trans. I oversee the bicycle and pedestrian program. And I've been doing bike and pedestrian planning design for over 25 years now. So just putting that out there. So Ken got in touch with the agency with this idea of Striping Bike Lanes over the interchange. And through the payment management program, through Matt, he got in touch with me. And so I did come out a couple weeks ago with my bike. So it was a rare occasion for me to actually ride my bike at work. It says that in my job description. I'm going to do that for you all. Although that wasn't the most pleasant ride I would say I've ever done. So Ken and I rode both directions of 100 through the interchange. And then we also rode both, Stouster in both directions just so we have, you know, so I could have a real hands on the ground experience of what that was like. And I've done that in other situations. So just sort of to address kind of some technical issues without I want to get into the weeds too much. But so as I think Bill was mentioning, so bike lane is when you have actually like pavement markings, designating a shoulder essentially as a space for bikes. So that distinguishes the bike lane from a shoulder. And so there clearly will be paved shoulders through the interchange area. And no one is proposing that we restrict bicyclist access through the interchange. But there are some kind of problematic areas. And we stopped and looked at all of those when we were out there doing our reconnaissance. We didn't take any measurements that day. So when I looked at this back in the office in more detail, I'm relying on the same survey information that Matt was talking about. So the problematic areas when you, if bike lanes were to be marked through the interchange, are where there are the right turn lanes or that are primarily people getting onto the interstate. So when you have a bike lane and you have a right turn lane, we have to follow the MUTCD if you're not familiar with that. So that's the manual that dictates pavement markings and signage standards that Vutron has to follow, and towns have to follow by state statute in Vermont. So when you have a bike lane and a right turn lane, you can't place the bike lane to the right of the right turn lane, because then that puts bicyclists into kind of a conflict with the right turning vehicles. So when you have a marked bike lane, and part of this project actually has one of these, I think, at the Shahs or Hanover Shahs at the turn lane there, so with a bike lane and a right turn lane, you place the bike lane between the through lane and the right turn lane, so that bicyclists are continuing forward, aren't in conflict with right turning vehicles. So you can kind of imagine doing that out through the interchange area. You end up with some very long stretches where bicyclists would be riding between a lane of traffic going straight and another kind of accelerating and getting on to the interstate. And that's, you know, Ken brought up the conflict of the left turn from going from 100 to turn on to Stow Street, which I agree that is left turns are difficult for bicyclists. But there are several, in my opinion, more dangerous conflicts going through that interchange area, with the various ramps that turn off, especially going south down to 100. I think there's three or four different conflict points. And so I think that's the biggest concern that I had when I got back to the office. And sorry, Ken, I haven't had a chance to talk to you since I looked at all this. But that was my biggest concern. The idea of parking bike lanes through the interchanges that having those long conflict points. And we have looked at some additional signs and pavement markings that there's one ramp where we are proposing some pavement markings to make motorists more aware of bikes, potentially processing. So I think there are some things that we can do to make it safer for bikes to get through the interchange. But it's very tight, actually, to fit in bike lanes with all the other shoulder and lanes that are necessary through there. So it looks very wide when you're out there just kind of looking at it now, and part of that is that there's almost no pavement markings out there now. So it's kind of like the Wild West out there. Can I ask a naive question? If you're from out of town and you're peddling down 100, which I see quite a few people riding 100. And they're coming into town, how do they know to take a left on Stowe Street? So why wouldn't we try to, if there are interchanges that are potentially able to be labeled as the safest way through the interchange because they don't know what we've decided is the safer route or the route that we want to say is the route they should be taking, why would we not try to put as many labels on the road to help bicyclists safely get from Shaw's to the roundabout? Are you saying like? Well, just like we're talking, it sounds like we're saying we're going to decide with the safest way for a bicyclist to go and we'll put down the markings on those roads, but we're not going to mark a potential route that a bicyclist might take and the safety concerns surrounding exactly what you're referring to, which is when you have these rights onto the highway that bicyclists hopefully know, but maybe we can help better mark that you should be over here and the car should be on your right and they'll go off and you'll be in a safer position. I guess I'm confused at understanding exactly what the ask is and then why there is in consideration to just do as much, I mean, I guess it comes down to cost, but why wouldn't we consider it is still that people are going to take that route? What can we, if the town needs to ask for it or the town needs to, or the state needs to step up and say, hey, people are going to take this route, let's put the markings down to get them through these intersections safely. I don't really understand that we're having to decide which route we're going to define as the bike route when it sounds like that left hand turn on a Stow Street is probably just as dangerous as some of these other parts of the path. So we're not going to be, there's nothing on the road that's going to say take the left on Stow Street, right? For bikes? Well, so that's kind of a side issue, I guess, but I think Stow Street in this case is a viable option that it has far fewer conflicts, lower speeds, less traffic. It is not as direct, I think it adds maybe a half a mile point to point. But we could do some things with signs to indicate that that is a route for bicyclists.  Yeah, and so, but we would have to work with the town. We can't just go out and sign that road because it's not ours from, you know, state's perspective. So we'd have to work with the town to do that if that was something that town was interested in. I don't know if that answers your question, but the other thing about that left turn at the, and the time that Ken and I wrote through there was, it was like 10 or 11 in the morning, so there wasn't a great deal of traffic going through that signal. And I understand it gets busy at times, so, but it is at a signalized, you know, as a bicyclist, you can get across lanes of traffic and get to the left turn lane and add a signal to make that left turn under a controlled condition as opposed to crossing ramps that are, you know, unsignalized and not controlled. Yeah, I think my big question was exactly that. If we're gonna say Stow Street's the route we need to be telling bicyclists that's the route, but I also have a cyclist here saying the other route to me is safer, and I feel like there's a little bit of confusion on at what point who says what route is the safer route. And so just to reiterate, so physically there's not enough room either upon the interchange to do the bike lanes and meet all the other standards that are required for lanes and offsets to the median that Matt mentioned and so forth, so. Yeah, I think the, you know, Ken's point about the signalization at Stow Street and Room 100 is great. Helps you make a safe left-hand turn. It's getting into that left-hand turn lane, which right now, as he said, is a center turn lane that you can, you know, southbound traffic is getting in it to turn left on Stow Street. Northbound traffic is getting in the same lane to turn into the service station there. So there are some really potential conflicts there, and I know this is down the road, and I'm not a cyclist who, you know, cycles on the road commuting, so to speak, but is it completely off the charts to in dangerous intersections to expect the cyclist maybe to become a pedestrian and cross the road with the light? The plan is to put a light in there that's gonna be signalized with a push button across walk, and, you know, it might not be for a few years, but that, to me, seems the safer way to get across is to become a pedestrian and just cross the road. Go ahead. So my name's Jason Van Rijsch. I work for Vocal Motion. I've been in there for about nine years. I'm actually finishing at Vocal Motion at the end of May, and so, like, well, I am sincere with me. She's training up to take over work with communities around the state. We work with all kinds of towns, as well as the trans-directly, and exactly these kinds of issues, and you're raising all the right questions. A few things that I can offer that I hope will be helpful. One, in response to your question about, you know, what do you do about the fact that there are people like Ken said, ride on route 100 over the interstate, and what's your obligation to those folks? I think you can think about safe biking kind of in two ways. The basic level is what do you need to do to ensure some basic level of safety on any road where people are going to bike, whether, you know, in some ideal picture you might want them to or not. If there are people biking there, there's sort of a basic public safety obligation that needs to be met. And then the higher level is creating truly safe places to bike, and, you know, looking for ways to separate bike traffic from car traffic in ways that makes everybody's, you know, trip to get where they're going safe and convenient. So I think in this case, on route 100 between the Roundabout and Stow Street, it's important to do everything possible to make sure that there is safe space to bike there, that there's, you know, as wide a shoulder as possible outside of the car traveling, so that folks who choose to ride there, A, can do so relatively safely, and B, aren't hanging up traffic. And that doesn't need to be a marked bike lane, it's just a matter of having a shoulder, having space. And that same logic applies north of Gupto Road, where there's not going to be marked bike lanes, but the state is going to maximize how much asphalt they can squeeze out of this project, and then bring the travel lanes down to their new standard of 11 feet, so that from most of the road north of Gupto there'll be five foot shoulders, which is, you know, will really do the trick for people who are wanting to ride there. But then, you know, for the part where you expect that there's going to be more bike traffic, where you might have people riding who are maybe a little less confident riders, that's where you want the actual marked bike lanes with the stencil of the bike, and the green markings that go across the intersection, you might have seen those on the very Mount Pilly Road, or this past year they went in on Williston Road in South Burlington, Williston. That's the kind of thing that takes it to that next level of actually making a safer place for people to bike. I've taken a look at Stowe Street, and also at the intersection of Stowe and Route 100, I do agree with the transit assessment that Stowe Street can work well as a preferred route with some changes to the striping, and there's some interesting ways to do that, that really make slow speed local car traffic, and bikes work well together without into Wyden Road, which obviously is not a possibility there, either financially or just, you know, people's front yards-wise. And then with regard to the intersection with Route 100, one of you mentioned the possibility of, and he said it, of could you have the bicyclists make the turn essentially in two steps? And I think that would be very much a viable option here, that you approach in the bike lane, and you're not required to get over to the left turn lane, rather you stay on the side of the road, proceed across in a bike lane that goes to the far corner of Route 100 and Blush Hill Road, wait for the next signal, and then cross Route 100 and head down Stowe Street when the light is in the direction of Blush Hill Road and Stowe Street. I think that would be quite viable, and a workable solution that would air on the side of safety, and maybe a little less direct or a little less fast, but that's really the trick when you're planning for biking, is to think simultaneously about the people who prioritize the direct route, and giving them a basic measure of safety, while at the same time thinking about the people who prioritize safety and low stress, and figuring out how to create a route for them that might not be quite as direct, but that goes beyond wide shoulders to do the kinds of things that you're talking about here. The last thing I'll say is that local motion works with V-Trans on projects like this all over the place, and typically we just provide feedback to V-Trans, we're actually working on a markup of the plans to share with the project team. We've done that on numerous streets. The most recent was the repave of Williston Road from Tafts Corners out to North Williston Road, which is happening next year. We sat down with the project team, went through the plans piece by piece, and made a bunch of suggestions to just kind of tweak it and maximize the benefit for biking while maintaining the fundamentals of what the Highwood Project is about, and we'll do the same V-Trans on this project, but I think this one is a bit unique in the sense that achieving the goal of a safe biking connection from Watergate up to Stowe requires town and state cooperation, and I think we can also help with that, and I'll briefly just mention one example of how we're doing that in another community that I think is actually quite analogous to this, and that's in Manuski, where the city of Manuski is working on a total rebuild of Main Street, which is round two and round seven, from the circulator up to the city line. It's a little different, because it's a class one town highway rather than a state highway, so they have more control, but it's similar in that it's a boatload of traffic, lots of big vehicles, et cetera, and people who ride their bikes on Main Street, regardless, simply because they prioritize getting from A to B as directly as possible, and they have a lot of tolerance for traffic stress. At the same time, there's a lot of interest in the town in having a much safer connection for biking from the center of the city up to the school, which is at the top of Main Street. So the design that we help the city come up with is that they're putting very minimal bike facilities on Main Street, just a climbing lane, meaning a northbound bike lane, but no bike lane in the downhill direction to share the lane going downhill, because anybody who's a really good bike can pretty much keep up with the 25 mile an hour traffic there. But then on Weaver Street, which parallels Main one block to the west, we're helping the city design a protected two-way bike lane, it's almost like a bike path in the street that'll be specifically for kids getting to school and other people who simply aren't gonna bike on Main Street, and I think that kind of hybrid solution is really ending up being the best of both worlds, because it means that on Main Street, they're able to achieve other goals, like on street parking for businesses along Main Street, like wider sidewalks and tree belts so that it's a sort of more attractive environment for business development. So that combination of some improvements on the main drag and some on a separate parallel street has proven quite useful. Now, I don't know yet if that would work here, but I think it's worth experimenting with. The issues that Ken raised, particularly with regard to the intersection of Stow Street and Route 100, are really significant and important issues that would require a lot of careful thought about how to make that work. But finally, when it comes to bike lanes between Stow Street and the roundabout on Route 100, I'm forced to agree with the folks from V-Trans in that I really don't see any way to safely put a bike lane across the slip lane. It really is just murder. And I think you wanna make it so that people who are gonna bike there anyway have a safe space to bike, and if they choose to cross the slip lane as their preferred route, you just wanna give them a wide shoulder on either side of the slip lane. But I don't think it's wise to put in the green bike lane markings across the slip lanes, because then, in effect, you're putting a seal of approval on that route, and I think it's basically impossible to make it safe to bike across slip lanes where people are accelerating to 50 miles an hour to get onto the highway. Okay, so real quick, Jason. We need to move forward here. Just it comes to my head here. Do you have a possible statistic on bike riders and what percentage of those ride for pleasure purposes versus what percentage of those ride for necessity, in other words, to get to work or? It's different everywhere, and it's really hard to come by those kinds of numbers. I think the more useful number that might get at what you're trying to point to here is the percentage of bike riders who are willing to ride under almost any conditions and will have what's called very high tolerance for traffic stress, basically. People who will ride on Route 100, and we'll be happy with even a bigger shoulder, but they're gonna be there regardless, versus people who prioritize riding someplace safe and will happily go out of their way if there's a safe option that'll take them there. And the, what you might call the riskier? Fearless riders are a very small percentage, probably in the range of five to 10% of people who regularly ride bikes. Much, much larger are the folks who prioritize a safer route even if it's a little more indirect. And again, you need to provide for both, but your larger constituency is definitely the folks who will take a somewhat indirect, safer route over a direct, high stress route. To just this kind of point at it, Matt here. I own a big truck, okay? And sometimes when I hook up my truck and trailer, I mean, I can be almost as long as this room. I have to drive 100% defensive all the time. And it's ridiculous the things that happened to me as a truck driver, by people in vehicles or bicycle riders. And the fact that you're narrowing route 100 by a foot to make a wider shoulder, is that? Yeah, so I know that from what I understand, the law requires me to stay three feet away from a bicycler. I just lost a foot of my lane to now do that. So now it's gonna be more pressure on me. And with the amount of people, large vehicles that are traveling 100, I have some concern about potential for increased accidents or even deaths due to the fact that we're now gonna openly allow bicycles. And I understand Ken's concern. But as concerned as he is, I'm more concerned on my end. Cause I was just even pulling out of my yard one day, looking both ways for vehicles, I started pulling out and I heard something that sounded like screaming. And before I knew it, here's a guy right next to me on a bicycle. And I never saw it. He was in the blind shoulder or blind point of my cab and never saw him coming. I was looking for vehicles cause they travel fast up the road there. They can be right on you, just like that.  And being on route 100, I had a guy say you got off of close to me one day. He lives up above me and he stopped in and said to me, you got off close to me, Chris. I said, well, it wasn't intentional. So there's huge concerns on my part with this whole bicycling issue. So just to let you know that. So I can address a couple of those pieces. I understand your concerns with driving a larger vehicle. I have a good number of days in a larger vehicle as well. So I'm familiar. I'm also familiar with not being seen as I'm a motorcyclist. So I know when you're not being seen as well. I'm not a bicyclist. So I don't have that experience necessarily. So part of this project, as was mentioned is the traveling is actually dropping down roughly a foot. What we're doing is we're making a pretty standard typical section for the length of the road. But what we're not doing is we're not moving pavement. So while the shoulder is going from roughly a four, three to four foot shoulder in many areas, now it will be a five foot shoulder. There's still going to be the same amount of pavement as you go through the project limits. It's just the striping is going to be somewhat different. So yes, you still have to follow those laws of staying three feet away from a bicyclist. And yes, there could be those concerns of a bike that was riding on a white line. I guess the hope would be they're going to have a brand new five foot wide shoulder and I gotta believe, I mean this is just my gut feeling as I'm not an epic bicyclist, I don't want to be anywhere near the car driving by me. So the hope is that with the five foot wide shoulder, that gives them the room to stay a little bit further off to the right rather than be right on top of the white line. Five feet is a magic number. And five feet is where you've actually got enough space that that's a functional lane for a bike. So I think that you'll actually find that I think the interactions between vehicles and bikes will be easier because the bicyclist will be a little farther to the right and the vehicle's perhaps a little farther to the left. And I think the reality is that there's more and more people biking regardless.  So that's why I thought the agency's determination that they would put actual marked stencil bike lanes up to Gupto made a lot of sense. And I think the fact that the marked bike lane disappears there, and including science that says recommended route, sorry about that. Recommended route goes up Gupto road, may make it easier further up, but there really is no option between Stow Street and Gupto other than coexistence because the bikes are t