Well, it's the end of an era in Bemidji as the Volunteer Citizen Patrol comes to an end. Josh Peterson introduces us to its remaining members and shares with us how the city will continue without the loyal volunteers. It was business as usual at Monday's Bemidji City Council meeting, but then came the announcement that a long-standing tradition of a volunteer service would come to an end. The Bemidji Citizen Patrol branch of the Bemidji Police Department will close down its services to the community. Dressed in full uniform, the remaining nine volunteer members of the Citizen Patrol gave a final salute and said farewell, but not without receiving a standing ovation from the City Council. Out of the nine members of the Patrol, four of them have been part of the organization since the inception of the program back in 1997, when they saw the program become part of the law enforcement community. We've got an old police car they gave us with radars, sirens and everything on it, radios. We've got radios that used to belong to railroads, we carry them with us, they do anything. For those who are part of the program since day one, they each had their own reason why they joined. Just retired from BSU, and I thought it would be an interesting sideline. I retired 20 years ago from my job, and it was something that was coming in that was new and it was different, and I didn't want to sit at home. It is bittersweet for these devoted volunteers, they gave so much of their own time, but in return became a big part of the community. All of the people I met and the things I did for the city, I miss a lot of the case that we got with us. With the Bemidji citizens patrol coming to an end, the city of Bemidji is looking for new ways to provide that extra security through use of the police reserves. One of the things that we do as a city is we have a reserve officer program, and so that I think is going to be the emergent solution here. Bemidji police chief Mike Mastin recognized each member of the citizens patrol and thanked them for their service by presenting them each with a certificate and a challenge coin. In Bemidji, Josh Peterson, Lakeland News. The Bemidji citizens patrol will officially be disbanded on August 31st. If you've enjoyed this segment of Lakeland News, please consider making a tax-deductible contribution to Lakeland Public Television.


Yes, you pre-data at CCL, how did you learn about it? Well that's a great question, Thea. There was a showing one night of a film called Facing the Surge, which was about sunny days flooding in Newport News, Virginia, and the impacts it had on everything, on people going to church, going to school, Navy bases for the United States there. And that film was sponsored by three groups, the Natural Resources Council of Maine, and I had worked for them, and the Sierra Club, and I knew all about the Sierra Club, and then this other group I'd never heard of called Citizens Climate Lobby. And then after the film was over there were presentations by each of those three groups, and I was looking for which group had the strongest program for federal governmental action, because that's where I thought action has to take place in order to address climate change. And Sierra Club talked about their mission and hikes you can take with them and this and that, but they didn't talk about a federal program, and the Natural Resources Council of Maine talked about what we should do in Maine. And then this guy got up, who was a Republican candidate for office, and he said, I'm with the bipartisan Citizens Climate Lobby, and we are laser focused on getting Congress to do something about the climate. And I said, voila, that's my group. And they trained me, and six weeks later, I joined them six weeks later, I had a suit and tie on, and I was in Washington, D.C., and I was ready to lobby my members of Congress from here in the state of Maine, because of Citizens Climate Lobby. So I've been, and I've loved it ever since. So who did you meet in that first meeting down in D.C.? Do you remember which lobby meetings you had? Well, there were only four of us from Maine, and recently we've had as many as, what, 15, 18? More than 30. More. Yeah, yeah, close to 30 people recently, just in four years, which shows the growth of Citizens Climate Lobby right there. We met with Chely Pingrian Person and Senior Staff of Senator Collins, and I think we met with Senator King himself as well, yeah. I remember when you first started getting, you went to a meeting and came home and started talking about it, and we decided to check it out. I mean, I thought, the last thing I needed in my life is another meeting, but we went, and they were, it's such a well-run organization. We got so much done in an hour and a half, and that continues to happen first Saturday of every month, and you come away with a sense of hope and a list of things to do, regardless of your strengths and weaknesses, and it really makes you feel like you're doing something meaningful. Do you remember our meetings in D.C.? Thea, you and I were on a team. Mama was off with another group, except for one meeting. Yeah, we did King and Collins. Yep, King and Collins. We also, because they were more Mainers than they knew, you weren't on that one, fall of 2019, but that was the one that had about 30, I think. But there was a bunch of kids there, that trip, and the last time they did it in person before COVID. Who else did we do when we went to other states? We did Democrat Representative Meng. Right, from New York. And then this guy from, I don't know, I want to say Kansas or Kentucky? Yes, it was Kansas. Mama had Kentucky. And what was your experience being on Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C.? Well, I was pretty shy, because it was my first time being in Washington, D.C., and I was meeting real congressmen and congresswomen. So I felt excited and overjoyed, but when you talked to them, they felt like real people. They listened to us, and it was just a normal conversation. So I felt really good about it. I didn't expect it to be so fun, did you? Yeah, no. I thought this is, you know, a good thing to do, and it's got to be done, and doing my homework, and these are the things we want to talk to them about. And then, regardless of whether it was the senator, congressman, or staff person, it was just a fascinating conversation every time. It's true. I really liked going to the trainings were so well done, too. I felt like I was really new what to say when I got there. There's something to fall back on when you felt nervous. Like, do you remember when the door opened and they said, okay, here comes Susan Collins? I was like, oh, wow, I'm really in a meeting with a well maker I've read a lot about, and, you know, disagreed with and agreed with it sometimes. But do you remember what it was like when Susan Collins walked into a room or when Angus King first, you know, the first time you met him or Pinkery?   When people asked me where I first had a, what's the, the beyond burger, I, when I say, have you tried those, they're pretty, they're pretty good. And I was like, ask me where the first time I ever tried what it was. Where was it? Oh, it was in the cafeteria of the Senate office building. Sounds very important. I think it's important to say, though, that although citizens climate lobby is indeed laser focused on Congress, and we do indeed go to Washington, D.C. in non-pandemic years, two or three times a year, that most of our work and most of the year is spent here in the home district. So we actually go to the district offices of our members of Congress. We also write letters to the editor because media has a big and do social media because media has a big impact on what our members of Congress think their constituents would like to see them do. We also develop our own chapters of citizens climate lobby. And there are now, I think a dozen, almost a dozen, say roughly a dozen of them throughout the state of Maine. And we also do grass tops and grass roots. Right. So grass roots would be reaching out to people in general, either through broadcast, perhaps like this one, or at tabling events when in non-pandemic years. And grass tops is getting endorsements from heads of organizations or members of organizations or municipalities that for our members of Congress represent a lot of constituents because they really want to know that when they vote in favor of something like a carbon pricing bill to stabilize the climate, that people in Maine understand why they're voting for that and are in favor of their voting for that. So there are a lot of different things we can do depending on our skill sets. And in fact, now we have a procedure where if you're interested in joining Citizens Climate Lobby, your name is forwarded back to the local chapter and you get an interview usually asking you how much time you have, what your interests are, what your aptitudes are. And we try to match up aptitudes and interests with time available to for the purpose of lobbying members of Congress. That's a great point. Yeah, it's there's plenty of room for introverts to do stuff. Yeah, like the letter writing and that kind of stuff is fantastic. Yeah, CCL has a lot of you can choose what you want. And there's you don't have to get forced to do anything you do what you like and what you feel is important. I remember there were rarely any kids my age. So I thought what to do. And then our chapter leader, Sarah Bray, came up to me and said, you want to take pictures? So I got to take pictures and I felt really good about it because I'm doing something as well. Yeah, what have you done for CCL? Like in the past week or month, what are you working on? Now I'm involved in the Shelly Pingree meeting. That's led by youth, actually. I did a mini presentation of a site called En-Roads. And you told my teacher and he said I could do a presentation to my class. So I'm really excited about that too. Yeah, and when I you'll maybe find the same thing I did. When I do these presentations, I end up getting a lot of great feedback. First, when you show people En-Roads, the first thing this is like, oh dear, we're in deep trouble because it's so much work to get to where the scientists say we need to get to, right, to get from 3.6, which is business as usual, 3.6 degrees centigrade above pre-industrial levels. It's bad news to get that to two degrees or lower takes a lot of work. But the nice thing, but then when you show them carbon pricing, I'm always amazed that people, oh, wow, that does so much more than I thought it would. It's when you have to explain why and how to make it so that doesn't hurt poor people and et cetera, et cetera, but all that stuff really does make people feel empowered that they can, at least there's some hope they can, instead of being overwhelmed by the problem, they can try to grab ahold of that. And I remember I'm thinking about James Boyce, the economist just recently made a presentation at the University of Maine in Arno and he said, he gives presentations all the time. He's always gets the same questions like, why have I not heard of this before? And he says, well, it's because no one's going to get super rich off of this, but it's going to stabilize the climate and it's going to put us in the right direction where we can mitigate the problem and try to go in the right course for the future. I mean, one of the most exciting parts is that not only does it not hurt poor people, it's really good for poor and middle class people. Yes. We're talking about carbon fee and dividend, which is a bill that has been introduced in Congress twice with Republican support. And it would put a constantly rising price on carbon emissions, the things that are driving the greenhouse gases that are driving the increase in global temperatures and take all the money from the fossil fuel companies that were paid for by this price and divided into equal shares for all Americans. And it's called carbon fee and dividend. And it turns out it is, it meets the two tests that citizens climate lobby has for any bill that we support, which is on the one hand, it will be effective in driving down global temperatures and stabilizing the climate. And second, it will be helpful to poor and middle class people in terms of paying for the cost of transition. Yeah, you know the story of Marshall Saunders. Could you tell them? Because I don't think any of you have heard that story about how it was founded because it didn't start with carbon. Citizens climate lobby didn't come out of the gate with carbon fee and dividend. They settled on that after having those two prerequisites. It had to stabilize the climate and it had to help or not heard at least, and in this case, significantly benefit the poorest. But tell the story of Marshall Saunders because you know that story better. Sure. CCL was founded by Marshall Saunders, who was a real estate agent in San Diego. And he made enough money to essentially retire and go into philanthropy. His first philanthropy was making microloans to poor people around the world. So if a woman in Bangladesh just needed, you know, $50 to get a sewing machine to start a seamstress business, he would try to, he would provide the microloans. And in fact, he was so successful using International Rotary Club as one of the extenders of that effort that it is said he made a million microloans in his career. But he noticed that the storm surges and sea level rise in Bangladesh was causing people to have to move inland. So sewing machine or no sewing machine, they were homeless. So he realized the major problem was climate change. And he decided he needed to focus on that. And he had a friend in San Diego who was a, this is an old reference, but a dare to be great motivator for corporate Fortune 500 companies. A guy named Mark Reynolds had his own consulting business trying to increase the efficiency of major corporations and their leadership teams. And he went to Mark and he said, listen, I'm trying to start this thing about climate change. Would you be willing to run the organization for five or six months? And Mark Reynolds said, I think I could spare five or six months. Well, it's 13 years later and Mark is still running Citizens Climate. And and it's it's been in the early years in membership, it doubled in size almost every year, you know, from 50,000 to 100,000 and 100,000 to now it's nearly 200,000 volunteers throughout the United States and dozens of other countries. But it's it's primary focus is the United States of America. And we are still the second largest polluter of greenhouse gases driving the disruption of climate. So but and the other model was there was a guy named Sam Daly Harris who ran a group called Results, which was about providing support for poor people around the world. And he he's written about direct democracy and how we as citizens can actually empower our government to do things. And in his case, he got the United States to I'm not sure the exact numbers, but more than quadruple our aid to poor countries around the world, one of the most effective lobbying groups in Congress. And so that model has proved to be the model for citizens climate. I remember sharing him speak a couple of years ago at the up in New York at the regional. Yeah, he was he was wonderful. And it's true because I think I mean, you've preceded me in this and I've only done this. I'm going up. We're going up on three years this summer, I guess. But in that amount of time is the story has evolved already. I remember how difficult it was to try to explain to people carbon dividends that this money that was going to be going into this carbon fee was going to be redistributed as an equal monthly dividend check. And that seemed like a preposterous idea. Like there's no way we could trust the IRS to do that or the government to do that until COVID happened. And all of a sudden people have real experiences with this. And now we're talking about doing this instead of having money that's being borrowed in order to send that out. We're now talking about money that has is actually paid for with this carbon fee. So it not only mitigates the problem, but you're getting something good from from the government and people as they found in Canada appreciating that that that that policy quite a bit because that money helps them in other means of their life that has nothing to do with climate change. And it's fully fair because the polluters are the ones we're asking to pay and they've known for decades that they were causing a problem and they've continued to cause the problem. So do you think it's funny that well because now we've got like to traditionally conservative groups or business friendly groups ever want to classify them like the US Chamber of Commerce and another like the AP with the American Petroleum Institute for crying out loud is now actually coming on board. Does that give you any pause that like is that the folks who are responsible for so much pollution do you think that that that wait a second there there must be something wrong with the policy if they're coming on board. No I think it's a recognition that what all of us can see happening all around us which is the climate is being disrupted and its effects are negative. They are not positive. So they're they're even Republicans or even extreme conservatives are convinced that the government is going to do something about the climate and for the purposes of business they want a predictable plan. They don't want something to suddenly be sprung on them or to be highly variable and some approaches to climate control or climate stabilization like cap and trade produce highly variable prices and businesses can't can't plan based on that. So this is a program where the increase every year is known. It's a base price of ten dollars more per year every single year and and more if we're not reaching the targets of reducing emissions that we want and business says OK that's a model we can work with we know what the price is going to be of our supplies and our and our products in the next year the next five years the next 20 years so they're in favor that I think they see you know they see the tide moving they see how general opinion is moving and much in the same way that some conservative lawmakers a few years ago wouldn't it was dangerous for them to admit that this was a human caused problem and now they've already moved to say yes we acknowledge this that the problem is what we're going to do about it. Oh tell the story about when you were lobbying. Am I allowed to. I don't think it's I don't as long as you don't specify who it was. You were in a cool country meeting. Yeah I was in a cool country meeting. I was so meeting with a representative yeah I was also a representative member from cool country at his aid actually and we you know it was cool for me because I still think of myself new on the lobbying end because that was my first and only live lobbying session but you know prepping for the meeting with these very experienced constituents or people who live near his district saying you know just be careful what kind of language we use because they don't want to hear they don't want to hear about solar panels they don't want to hear you know anything that could be remotely negative about coal and and immediately the young staffer said okay we now acknowledge that this is a big issue and and so we've we've made that step forward. It reminds me a little bit I mean on the opposite end of the extreme is like the environmental justice folks that are concerned you know they have some concerns about carbon pricing because you just think of it from the very the the veneer of it seems that oh if you're going to increase the price on carbon that's going to hurt people who are living paycheck to paycheck and also it doesn't address some of the kind of the the injustice historical injustices that have happened to folks who are really taking climate change on the chin already and a lot of that has parallels with injustices of cars income and race and stuff but where there is a lot of overlap on this this does help us on the fact that it predominantly helps the poorest and there's an overlap between that and the other injustices. Right. Yeah and so just climate citizens climate lobby agrees that they'll have to be complementary policies this is not a one-shot deal this is not a silver bullet it'll require silver buckshot a range of programs and so for instance having to do with coal country there will be a shift away from coal very dramatic shift but we supported last year the reclaim act which will help support cold coal based communities as their their jobs are lost as they have been lost over the last 20 years but as they will increasingly be lost and I guess I'll add one other thing which is these these companies the the oil companies and gas companies are very well managed companies and they all know how to shift it's not as though they're going to close up shop all together first of all they're 80% of the economy energy source right now and second of all a company like Stato oil which was the Norwegian offshore oil company as was which was the largest builder of offshore oil platforms is now called equinoa same company same leadership and it's now the largest producer of offshore wind turbines so you can see there's there's a lot of these companies will move they're already moving they're already pricing carbon internally so this is just adding an external price to carbon the world is getting ready for this even as we speak even if we don't understand all the mechanisms that are involved just can we do it in time yeah how fast can we do this that's then CCL's job we say we know we're going to get there we're just trying to get there faster that's what we're when you talk to friends at school go ahead sorry I was just saying about the job thing when people are losing jobs we have to tell them we just have to tell them the EICDA the carbon dividend act will not just hurt cool it will also bring other jobs there's nothing really to worry about we can do this and we can be okay yeah it's going to help people I guess I would add you made a video of your presentation isn't that right yeah because that's I've actually seen your presentation yeah well as someone said you know if Greta Thunberg had just sat outside her school in Sweden nobody would have known about it but she publicized the fact that she sat outside the school and you've publicized the fact that you've gone through this training and have this experience so that's that's a critical part of what we do what do you think your class reaction is going to be when they learn those figures and well they we we they already know that climate change is an issue issue and because and I think that King and other and other schools that they've been moving towards like green silverware and composting they know that's important I think when they hear about carbon pricing they'll sort of think what's that that's where we all start is thinking oh this is a big problem I'm gonna do what I can in my house so you like you get your compost together or you try to recycle better do a better job of you know reusing and all that stuff fish and light balls fish and light balls try to save some money on that stuff or heat pump if you can do it and getting off of heating oil but after that's done that's like you can still do all those things but it doesn't mean and you know you can convince your neighbors or like set a shining example but you can't have it be just voluntary and expect us to get there in time even the great stuff that mains doing right what the stat is 0.32 percent of the US emissions come from Maine so it's great that the governor's and the climate council is doing all this wonderful work and I hope that the causes the nation to follow suit but to ensure that the nation follows suit and that we can meet those goals we need that carbon price is like the biggest thing to do and in elementary school and I talked about climate change I didn't have that everyone's model and I was just saying climate change is important we should do all this stuff people will go home and tell their parents and say let's get garbage to garden and let's get recycling they it's it's very critical that we tell them what is the most important what we need to do first yeah and you know those the your classmates have cousins all around the world and some of them move to other states and it slowly the word spreads they'll tell other people those people will tell other people right in fact one of the most important things I've learned from my citizens climate lobby is that I can have a conversation with someone that I'm sure disagrees with me quite strenuously about climate and a lot of other things I've been in an office where every symbol of the room was for those people and we had a great conversation and I remember the state who was South Carolina but that and it turns out that conversations about climate is one of the most important things to do is to have conversations so that people become aware that I care a lot about it and it turns out they do too we may have different approaches to what we want to see done about it but the first thing we need to do is to start having conversations and citizens climate lobby deliberately because we're bipartisan we go to every member of commerce we learn how to be respectful how to show gratitude how to have a civil conversation with people who differ from us or disagree they have different underlying values and as a result they have different ideas about where we should go next doesn't matter we can have useful important conversations and civil conversations respectful conversations and we do we prove that over and over I just want to say that in the meeting that I'm going to do soon with Shelly Pingry that's you flood there's different roles and I'm the appreciator so there's many like there's the person asking her will you endorse this bill or and or will you support it and but there's also the appreciator and so we're not just only asking them we're also thanking them right and she's already in a sponsor so it's just seeing that she does it again in the next session right mm-hmm yeah and we here in Maynard so privileged to have two senators senator King who's an independent and senator Collins who's a Republican both on the small Senate climate solutions caucus discussing what what kind of legislation they can agree on to put forward and there will be a package of climate legislation in the next month or two and we're all hoping that it'll actually involve both Democrats and Republicans because as it goes through the Senate it will probably need at least 10 Republican votes to become law and yeah and since I did the Enred's presentation for that was probably part of this document or the the this show senator Romney has come out in favor of it yeah we know that Susan Collins has supported something very similar to this a dozen years ago she just needs to be brought back to that senator King has said some very great statements about climate and the climate action business friendly people he's inching closer and closer yeah yeah I think a lot of people are inching closer I think Enred's is helping a lot of people also compare which ones do what you know who else is on there's 14 people on that Senate climate solutions caucus yeah yeah six Democrats plus senator King and seven Republicans yeah including Mitt Romney right and Mike Braun is another one who's a support of it or at least it's right he's a Republican from Indiana we're always looking for the Republicans they're the yeah they're the ones that are trickier to find but it's great and we know we know too just as a political matter that Chris Coons who's the senator from Delaware and a very close friend of Joe Biden's course being Delaware fellow Delawareans they must know each other it's like a two-stay they're just on two different train cars right we know he's actually the sort of the kingpin in the Senate for the development of new bills and he has a bill of his own but he's working with others to create bills around carbon pricing we also know that three members of Biden's cabinet or cabinet level positions John Kerry in charge of climate Janet Yellen and Treasury and Pete Buttigieg in transportation are all in favor of carbon fee and dividend so we now we now have positions in Congress on both parties and in the White House that are in favor of this as one of the policies that'll be in a climate package that will be coming up in the next month or two so there's a real sense of urgency now that anyone who's interested in having an impact on what our national climate policy might be that they enter the fray now and if you want a lot of education around how to do that I can't I can't suggest anything better than Susan climate lobby and no and we've heard a lot about carbon pricing recently yeah yeah I think it's also a couple of the things that's important is that the carbon pricing unlike other you know other laudable ideas to try to get mitigate the problem it's expedient it's quick we can put that in place in nine months whereas other thing like how long have we been working for the clean transportation sector yeah it takes years for those kind of things to be implemented and on top of that with a Supreme Court that is got a 6 3 conservative majority and maybe skeptical of overreach by the legislative branch we know that pricing you know the the purse strings are controlled by the legislature and that's very explicit in the Constitution so it's kind of resilient to any kind of attacks from the judiciary or from the from lawsuits yeah and I guess it's worth saying that we were talking very technically and very specifically about political this and that and so forth so on and believe me if you'd approached me four years ago and asked me about this I would have known nothing about it so that this is the result of a of a citizens climate lobby alleges education great and in fact the website which is either citizensclimatelobby.org or climate citizens USA climate USA always CCL USA CCL USA.org was the first one is a bearable University of Education about climate so but a more enjoyable way to find out about it is to enter your name and zip code in the on the website and you'll be directed to your local chapter and then you can actually get together with other folks yeah virtually or in reality hopefully by the time this airs maybe in reality reality right and find out what the opportunities are for service and the opportunities are for education and the opportunities are for influencing your members of Congress it's really it's it's it's it's it's I must say it's a special experience in my life to be important to be part of this before I saw that film and went to Washington I had never contacted my member of Congress about anything I had not written a letter phone call visit nothing I lived in Washington DC a couple times never did this so I would suggest that you you probably think that the federal government is really distant from but in fact it's kind of right next door and the fact that it's so close to you and you have such access to it will be made clear if you join and become active in citizen's climate yeah and you get I didn't think go ahead yeah sorry I was just going to say like the skills that you like if you're it can make you cultivate skills you never thought you were capable of like being communicator to a in a lobbying meeting those people make six figures and here I am trying to build the same skills and on top of that you know so you you make good friends you learn a lot about climate you feel like you're making as big of a difference as you can by actually moving the people who can control the most and creating a solution in the right direction and and do you sleep better at the end of the day because you've you've done that so did you mention you have fun and you have a lot of fun yeah not only is is acting on climate and CCL for congressmen and going to lobby but also just to just to get back to like talking about the other day with what will happen if this doesn't happen and we won't ever build a snowboard again or go skiing yeah it's not just about lobbying it's about so many other things yeah and everybody has their own special reason for what makes them the saddest or what motivates them and we tell the story all the time but in my family we used to get together on New Year's and by wholesale shrimp off the boat main shrimp and spend a lot of time shocking 10 pounds of shrimp and then stick them in the freezer we had shrimp for weeks months a year whatever and then and now we can't do that anymore there are no more main shrimp to be fit you know you can get them from Nova Scotia again from Newfoundland yeah that's where our lobsters will end up coming from yeah right to stabilize things pretty quickly yeah but you have to make sure that you do it balance right I get scolded for spending too much time trying to save winter then and to make sure I turn around and savor it and go for a good Nordic ski or do something you know make a snowman or you know it's a nice place to live in Maine and I just wait I don't want to imagine all the things that are going to go away from Maine you know winter outdoor recreations healthy lifestyle in the summer instead of have to worry about as many ticks and other diseases blueberry crops whatever me lobsters all that stuff is just like quint essentially Maine how weird will it be if that all goes away


We're glad to know you're still there. It's so unfortunate we couldn't bring you the papers today, but the papers are looking good. So find one, grab one, and see if you can see what the headlines are. We're moving from glory to glorious cities in some sections, while in some others we still need to grow a lot. But right now, we're going to be looking at the security situation as it concerns 2024. What are the things that need to be put in place for security to be top notch as we enter into the new year? Remember that today is 30th of October 2024. If it were one of those other months, it would have been the last day of the month, but this is October, so we're still having one more day. And then we are entering November. Before you know what is happening, then it is Christmas, and then it is the new year. We begin to make resolutions that sometimes in the middle of January, we just jettison and continue to live our lives because of the situation and the reality on ground. The other day I was passing through a street, and that was early October, and they were already doing Christmas decorations, and one of the people inside the car that we took was like, oh boy, it's December that time already, because once we begin to see this, you know that the responsibilities that come with December or the end of the year are upon you. What have I really done? So instead of rejoicing that you're going to have Christmas, some people are afraid that the time is coming too soon, but hey, it will take 365 days for Christmas to come after the last one. But life happens, and we do hope that we are going to round off this year in style. Okay, we're going to be talking security, like I said, and we are glad to be joined by a security expert, Mr. Augustin Agwe Ega. Good morning, and welcome to the program, Mr. Agwe. Good morning. It's my pleasure. Okay, for a while now, the present administration, in fact, every administration has been trying hard to make sure that they make the arsenal of our security agencies to be richer, because sometimes we have firepower from the bandits, from the terrorists, from all the people that do unwholesome things, being superior to what we have as a country, you know. So we try to upgrade and all that. But as we have seen in the past, it doesn't seem to be making so much impact on improving the security situation in our country. So today we're concentrating on what, beyond the weapons that we buy, should the security agencies, the government, and whoever is concerned be doing to make sure that our security is better. So we're looking at 2024. The new administration has just won the case in the Supreme Court, so it's time to concentrate. What are those things that they need to concentrate to make sure that security is top notch in 2024? Let's begin there. Thank you, Nambu. I think so far the current administration has been looking at every area to better the Nigerian society. We should understand that the social welfare also has a lot of impact in the security of the nation. If you are having difficult times in the nation, it will also reflect on the security situation. So as much as they plan to buy complicated arms, they should also work hard in trying to revive the economy of Nigeria. That will go well to even bring down the security situation to a very low level. And as we said, it is not out of place for them to also buy new arms, especially when we look at security. We look at the national security and also look at the international security. These are external factors that affect the national security as well. Currently, we have the Israel, Israel and Palestinian arms conflict going on. And we know that this also has an impact in the international and national security of Nigeria. Why? Because some people who perceive Israel to be a Christian state and the Palestinian and Muslim state, especially I'm talking about the modern aspects, there will run to quick conclusions that it's a religious conflict. And what we would see in the North that you see people carrying arms by any means in the disguise of terrorism and all that to start fighting innocent souls and killing people. We have that experience when we had the Islamic state in the current Iraq. We know that that also inflames even the ice swap in Nigeria. We also have an incident that we, like what we have currently now also at Nigeria. The ministry government is in Nigeria. We know that they will not take no sense from any criminality. So it means that they will be treating all criminal issues. And if Nigeria is in heaven, they will find themselves in Nigeria. So as much as they buy arms, I also feel that it's important for the government to strengthen its border control. Immigration, the custom authority that should do a lot to control the border movement. Because this is where all the threats will come in. Okay. I don't know. Intelligence gathering has always been a problem in Nigeria. I think that's what is perceived, that it's been a problem in Nigeria. If you agree to that accession, what do you think should be done to get this intelligence gathering to where it should be? Because I don't see any security succeeding without proper intelligence. Well, you cannot deploy. You cannot deploy a security manpower without intelligence. Intelligence is something that it goes around the cycle, like especially the DSS are inside of the internal intelligence. And of course, every other law enforcement, they have intelligence units. And so they play a critical role in ensuring that strategies are built in that will be caught effective. So intelligence cannot be ruled out. As much as you break that, it should also be increased. And of course, they are doing a lot. There are so many threats, issues that even they don't bring to the public knowledge. But they just, to avoid fear, to avoid panic, they just try to kill it within their own... The attempts of intelligence gathering are considered a Nigerian intelligence that they are very strong. The DSS and all of them, immigration and the customs and the civil defense, all of them, they work very hard. They ensure they get included in the military. So they share all this information, this speech within themselves. So that is already something that they think. But it is not enough, unless it's actionable. When they receive this, they should not just receive it. They should be kept to use it. Okay, maybe we were wrong by thinking that. Because since they don't bring some of these things to public knowledge, they might be doing their work diligently. The only proof, or depends on where you're standing, is that we see situations where... Because anything that has to do with security or has to do with arrest is also a security issue. We see so many times where people get arrested on very frivolous things and then get detained for so long and then use that time when they are detained to do investigations. For a people that have a good intelligence unit and a good intelligence network, this shouldn't be the case. So we tend to feel that the intelligence gathering is not good enough. That's why things like this happen.  There is no arrest without a background information. And for the fact that a person has been arrested does not make the suspect. He's still a suspect. He has not been convicted. So it depends on the background information that the law enforcement will receive that they will commit to an arrest. And when they arrest, it is still not out of place to ensure that they do accurate due diligence because they can release such a suspect. So whether it's a suspect in their own next, it's only and I think in every guideline, they have their rules of engagement. And these are rules of engagement I think we should try to understand from the public angle. Rules of engagement is something they know within themselves just like you have in every organization. They follow their rules of engagement before they commit to any arrest. So okay, now a lot of people are saying that devolution of powers is a very, very critical thing if we need to move on. There are some things that have been concentrated in the center so much so that it is affecting the other parts of the center like security. There's so much that is concentrated on or in the center that it's difficult for states and local governments to do the needful when it comes to security. That's what so many people have been saying. Is that a true assertion or assessment of the situation? And if it is, what can be done differently to give more powers to the state or what kind of powers do the states need for them to be effective in tackling the security situation in their domains? Yes, I think one of our programs would be COVID and I will still emphasize that both parties from the state to the federal we should not accept that as a public. Because every state government, they really have a budget to run security. Security is a business. But some governments see it as a very trivial issue. It is a business unit just like any other thing they handle. In fact, it's the most serious business. But we go without it, nothing can try. And I said it earlier. I said in some, I know the former governor of Cardinal State have a particular commission which he dedicated to security and safety.  I don't see why this federal and the state government cannot form a commission that has to handle security and safety in their state. Because that is a sign of due diligence. When they start having this department or a unit that will handle security and bring its professionals that will help them draw out blueprints that will handle security in their state. The federal government will buy in because they are not going to work differently. But whereby they believe that the kind of system that they are creating right now is the system that existed in the military rule. The security structure is the system that existed in the military administration. We are team holding it. And we said we are practicing democracy. If truly, like you said in the other angles, if they have to make secrecy work, then that you see it that we are in a democratic government, then you begin to release some of these things that are necessary for the state government to run. And when these things are committed to the federal and to the state government, then you have a platform that they will enable security in their federal domain. It's not enough to act as to make a complaint that the federal government is not doing this. What platform do they have that they are handling security in a manner that will bring progress to their state? That is the question we should have for all of them. But you said some things should be released to the state. What are some of those things that the state needs that are still being held by federal government? Well, like you said, some state governors would say that I will use the case study of Ben Westage because I don't want to go too far. Let's use case studies of things we have seen. In Ben Westage, we saw the former governor crying out the first time, the first of the major mass murder they had in the state. He was crying for the former president, Guari, to come to his aid. While he was going out of government, there was another one that happened that was serious where almost a community was born down and it was still reliant on the government that it should declare state of emergency. So from this, there are some things that we cannot know from our own angle that it has a public who will not know the arrangement and how they interface with the federal government. The governors know this very well. And so when they are passing this blame, we should also ask the federal government if you look into it, since it's a commander in chief of the armed forces, if you look at those angles, those areas that they are complaining that they need this, they need this touch that the whole state government has to rely on federal government to send armed forces in order to combat fear with a local community issue that normally it will raise up its own firepower to save the people. They say, like what I've heard from the past, there is always a complaint that the local authority, I mean the law enforcement and the military authority will say the federal government have not given order. Even in the space of violence, they will say the federal government have not given order. So there is nothing they can do about it. So I think that is the major problem. Or see the federal government release, give an order, that look that should be a state of emergency or the military should finish their actions to help the government, the governors, there will be nothing done at that moment.   Every minute they delay, people are dying already. So that you remove that kind of bottleneck and allow things to flow. The federal government and the state government, they know what is happening so that you have up in that angle a safe life. Okay, some people, while talking about the fact that the state government should have more powers when it comes to controlling the security in their domains have been afraid that sometimes when this power is given to the state government, it will be abused. That's why some of them even say state police is not going to be a good thing because it will be just at the messy of the state governor. We have talked about this before, but we are entering into 2024 so we have to re-emphasize the things we support and the things that we think there should be a review in our hearts and the hearts of the people who make policy. So what do you think about state police as we are entering 2024 and how do you think this can be controlled? Yes, based on the crisis level we are hard. We are hard and very wasted. I will see you that. And some others say that we have issues regarding insecurity. Nigeria is a federal state and we are practicing federalism. I think this federalism was copied from another nation to Nigeria. If we are practicing federalism, we should practice federalism. We should not be partial. It should be complete federalism. If we look at the state of the U.S. where we have some of these ideas we borrow to run our government, they have levels of security structure. They have the world that works at the local level. They have the state police and they have the federal police. The FBI, the CIA and all of that even to the sheriff at the local level. They have them all working in sync in order to save Ghana's state. And when you look at that state with so much population and with the largest state they have they have been able to protect their environment. So if we are practicing federalism it should be completely should not be partial. I am in support of the state police. But when we have laws of engagement like I said we have rules and regulations that will guide them. It's not something you just implement without some guidelines. Some rules, some top rules to be followed. And when we follow laws, we follow guidelines. I'm sure they will achieve the same thing with what the foreign nations are doing for their people. What do you think should be the role of private security outfits as we enter into 2024? Because for a time now it seems as if private security outfits are not doing optimally. They can contribute more but we are not seeing that much. Are there bottlenecks that are preventing them or are there things that need to be done so that when we enter into 2024 we can utilize everybody that can offer some bit of security to us in our country. What role can private security outfits play as we enter into a new year? Yes, the role that the private security can play first of all I would say that normally in the Nigerian police force they would tell you that they have deployed all their men from high dignitaries or celebrities and some of these people. I can tell you that in the private security we have a lot of integrated ex-servicemen in the private security sector who are trained in the use of arms. And so we want them to begin to release that kind of executive protection or close protection or bodyguarding. Some of those kinds of protection duties that normally the police are handling and they see some of them as being carrying back for women and all of that. I think the private sector has a lot of non-executive people people who also have a background in law enforcement criminology that should handle some of those rules and release the men, especially the Nigerian police force to go back to very sensitive duties that they can have. They can have enough manpower to man those places that they are having vulnerability. That is one thing. Another thing the private security should be engaged is training and retraining. We have a lot of cute people, some are professors, some are PhD holders. It's not like in those days where it was a profession that was meant for dropouts but I think it has highly improved. We have PhD holders, we have professors all in the private security. So in terms of training and retraining they can help even at the national level and another capability that the private sector has that will help the national security is their widespread. They are widespread. They are in every street, they are in every location. There is no place that they don't have. They are not printing. Definitely they have a lot of intelligence that will help the government 40. So that you try to make them comfortable and find an enabling environment where they could share intelligence with them. This is another part. In terms of security systems and technology we are talking about, sorry I'm using that. The private security is talking about this. They are very knowledgeable in the latest technology that could help the national security to improve. Not just the hard-coded manpower thing they are doing. There is this convergence in security now is the in thing. Security convergence is the reason everywhere in the world. You cannot win the battles by just using manpower. You need to include advanced technology. The private security are knowledgeable in this advanced technology and configuration. They can help them to build this into their operations. Secondly, or luckily, the government should try that most businesses should be mandated or there should be a compulsory rule that enables them to put security on the ground. Most businesses don't have private security unless maybe they have a breach in their security system like stealing or loss of life. You see them rushing and calling on a security company to call. They are far as human life in any premises, in any premises, in any location or any business. Private security should be engaged. So the law enforcement, especially the civil defense, should help on this to implement this. This will all help in the national security development. Yeah, but the gun laws in Nigeria do not allow so many people to handle guns. How can they be of real help if they cannot handle guns? These people that you're talking about, the private security outfits and the personnel. Is it just for gathering of information? Because, for instance, if a school is being raided by bandits or kidnappers to take some people and the security personnel that are there are unarmed, there is little or nothing that they can do to protect these people. Will you also advocate that these people be armed? Yes, you see, when we are breaking from, I think we want to remain in the colonial period. When the police officers then were giving buttons, they were carrying buttons because there was no violence in the country. So today, when civil defense came on board, they were not armed. But along the line, just to watch your picture, they found out that there is need for them to be armed based on their rules. The private security is always a large business enterprise with several departments, several units. I think the unit that will handle close protection, that you did a guideline for them. From the national security, if any organization, any private security will like to buy into their idea of close protection, they should directly and secretly supervise by the national security. So this will help. We are not saying that they should give guns to every private security officer. Whoever that is capable and have gone through the training, they should be trained from their own level to handle weapons in that area. So that they can release the Nigerian police of that duty or they can release them of that duty, allowing them to carry out safety national assignment. They should not be allowed or they should not be armed without training. They should be trained. They should be documented. They should be a deep background investigation on those that will be doing that kind of duty because they are going to carry out the national law enforcement. So there should be a thorough background including biometric checks so that they will be deterrent. Those that will go into it, they know that they are closely monitored and I'm sure they will not be able to do anything because the federal government and even the state government or the national, they have their data. That is one thing they can do. Okay. So I do understand that security, this is the final one. I do understand that security has to do with the person securing and the person who is being secured. So that's the people. We've been talking to people who need to secure others and let's talk to the people that we need to secure or the security people need to secure. That's the ordinary citizen. As we go into a new year, I know that this is still October but before you say Jack Robinson, we're in 2024. So what should the people, what should the role of the people be like because we all desire this security to be better than how it is now. So what role can the people play to bring this about finally? Okay. We seem to have lost the audio from Mr. Ega but he has been sharing with us what to look out for, what we need to do as we enter into 2024 to make sure that security is better than now. Well, we'll just take a break. We thank him in absentia. We'll just take a break now and when we return, we'll be talking about NLC issues. Stay with us.