Hello everybody if it's Wednesday, then that means it's Warhammer and Warhammer is a broad umbrella That means not only age of Sigmar, but but also apparently the old world That's right. I have neither of my normal co-hosts Yeah, both of them bailed both of them bailed awful. They were they were afraid Fear in their hearts. They they probably they feel they're here. Yeah felt terror felt error They failed a terror roll and boop. They were out of there. They broke and fled And so tonight we are going to be discussing the old world I have brought in two experts Brendan and Chuck in as much as anyone can be an expert at this point the three of us have are all enthusiasts of this new opportunity to play with our Warhammer toys more and Chuck let's say hi to everybody. How you doing buddy? Good good. Hi everybody. Hope you're doing well quick shout out to my gaming club I abandoned tonight after a quick thousand-point game the barn owls. Hope you guys are doing well playing Sigmar without me Very nice. Also Brendan. He's joining us his cameras frozen, but he is here. He's here. He's just thoughtful He's pensive. It's up Brendan. Hey, buddy. I'm good. How are you Vince? I am very good, my brother The three of us are gonna be talking through the old world We're gonna focus tonight on the rules this game what it's like Things that might be different from previous editions things that are the same from very old editions Things we like things we hate or don't like and things. We're not sure about and we're just gonna kind of give the whole The whole run-through We'll do more shows on in the future talking about like individual armies and stuff like that I don't I look at this is like hey great now. We have two different games. I get to cover About a game and miniatures that I love so there we go All right, but first off, of course, we're gonna do the news since I don't have my normal co-hosts I'll go ahead and do it tonight and we'll just pass it over to somebody else. So let's get into it We do have a little bit of news. I mean first off old world on pre-release. That's the big first news So Wild pre-release adventures for many people many things out of stock, but some things not That to King box still available here in the US Chuck what did you did you did you pick up anything? Yes, so I picked up All the books so core rulebook both arcane journals fan forces of fantasy Ravning hordes and the plutonium box and as well as all the carts I saw I think the dice in America was were delayed. I was gonna buy the generic set as Poor financial decision as that was I was gonna buy it sure But but the stock levels have saved me on that but I won't lie on the 20th I'm going out to my Warhammer store to enjoy the festivities and paint up a plutonium model And if they have the tomb Kings box in house, I may buy one still so We'll see see what happens But almost everything Speaking of dice, you should have seen the very fun adventure So Brendan and I got a game in on Saturday night on pre-release day We celebrated by playing a game and both of us still have square-based armies. They were ready to go and You should have seen the fun adventure that we had of me digging around my basement Trying to find the artillery dice Okay, like I had scattered ice everywhere But I could find the artillery dice and then so we I finally found one We play the game and then I look in my dice tray that I have specifically on my Warhammer table where I keep all my D6's and just a couple extra ancillary dice to mark things and there were like three artillery dice Yeah, that I had forgotten about never bothered to look in that thing because I was like why would they be there? And then normal dice because somewhere deep in my soul. I knew There you go, Brendan. What about you? Did you did you end up picking up anything? Just all the books right the the core is good bad Because I have an empire army. I've got a beastman army and then the arcane journals Just because I really like the lore that goes with Warhammer fantasy battles And I like just going through the rules of what every army does and all the different characters and sometimes it inspires me to try something else Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's like the Cool part about the arcane journals and we'll talk about it because it's gonna come up later in the show in a big way is You know that you get a lot of cool information and expansion for the army and Excitingly in a time period. We're not familiar with Right. Yeah, so for for things like Bretonia, that's like a lot of new stuff You look at the Tomb King book It's like mostly stuff you already know because those people were alive for like thousands of years before we met them and they're you know Alive for not long after we met them frankly.  All right, cool next news item Spearhead The snooze Stormcast Eternals spearhead box So this is 10. What are they called vigilors? Is that right? I don't know the dudes with swords Is that what they're called or is that the shooter guys? Vanquishers There it is.  I will never remember you even though I play this army Um So at any rate yes, vanquishers, thank you as well as the Andrasta three of the Annihilators annihilators and then the dude with the banner who's on the same sprue as the Andrasta So has to be in this box sir banner man The annihilators are also on that sprue too. So yeah, yeah that little pack is all in one sprue So it's like well, they're all going in Mm-hmm, and then the chariot But what we should really call this because we all know what this is This is combat patrol For fourth edition, right? I mean like everybody said it. I'm not breaking any news here I'm not saying anything that has been said a million times on the internet because Obviously combat patrol was very successful Obviously AOS has no good like path of entry into the game You just basically are like I don't know make a whole army. I guess Right because it there's no real way to play other than than 2k for the most part other than like if you have a very good friend who explains to you how doubles events work and So this is clearly just like okay This is going to be our combat patrol Equivalent for fourth edition wherein all the boxes are balanced against each other and you're meant to play it Like the one box level the lists are what's in the box you play the box against the box I mean like duh So, okay, cool fine good. I want this kind of on-road. I want more support for lower-point games So I'm here for it I'm curious too because with the combat patrol they actually slimmed down the rules a little bit So it's not as full feature So I wonder if if that is the case and that's what we're getting if they'll be the same or the Sigmar's Not hard to grasp as a basic core like Like type of game so I wonder how if it will slim down at all for it's just gonna like they're just balanced Yeah, I don't know it could be that they don't really need to cut much because a OS doesn't have some of the complexity that 40k has Right when it comes to these sorts of things Like you're not making a bunch of different weird choices and stuff like that on a OS units in the way you are in 40k units, right? so I mean look, maybe they'll change some simple stuff Maybe they won't I just want the game to have a functional entry point that actually is fun to play That's all I really care about. So just that's the bar guys, right? That that's the bar make it so when someone walks into their store the proprietor of that store can go Oh, are you interested in a OS? Okay. Well these Boxes these 24 boxes whatever, you know one per army whatever it amounts to right All you need to do is figure out which one of these you think looks cool Tell me about what type of stuff you like and then you buy this box And if your friend has one of these boxes you can play against anyone else using one of these boxes But this is unique you buy this you put it together you paint it there you go like yes Yes, it's not hard and put those rules online somewhere for free So a veteran can pull out those models. They probably have to play that new person who just showed up with this random box Exactly perfect perfect Okay, cool very good All right Next up the LVO preview is coming When is LVO again? like two weeks from now Next next Wednesday it starts. Yeah next Wednesday next Thursday. Yes, let's do this week So yeah, so next week. There you go. So that is to say then next week We will get our preview show That's when this is so it's about about a week from today And we're going to get some previews for as far as from from our perspective AOS, Warcry and Underworld's Death Gorge the latest in a long-running series of what seems like double entendres in the Warhammer Underworlds product line Where I at this point as I've said before I do fully believe that their goal with Underworlds is to make every single Subtitle name a double entendre like every single one of them. That's just I think it's intentional now They've done it too many times. That's where all the greatest models will live sure but they've changed the card backs and I I think the last couple the last one or two the narrative didn't really foreshadow the narrative we got in Sigmar so more Wondering what this game is about other than cool models I thought it was the place where we go to get cool replacement models for our characters and That's the only point now I think yeah, we also use it to sneak in re-sculpts of very outdated models like If you if you need a new I don't know like ogre hunter or something like that's how you'll see it into the game Right just make another dock warband, and I will buy all of it. That's all I need So that game is for me is a doc. Nope. I'm moving on I Was really surprised not to see the old world on this list like you're just releasing the game and They're not gonna talk about the roadmap or future of it like at all I mean understand the difference between specialist design studio and the normal game studio But they have the Horus heresy on here and that comes out of specialist design studio. So Why not just like say put up like one slide or something That's like and it's more arcane journals are coming like anything you gotta have some kind of plans over the year What's going on? They spent four years writing this Vince. They're tired Yeah, you know it like you've been through lots of logic launches. It just came out You got to give your team a chance to relax, you know, they haven't thought about maybe what comes next Exactly could be doors for all we know their release plan is we put it out there We see what people think and what they want about six months from now We'll start working on it. Well, that's when we'll start doing some new things So I look forward to 2026 when round two of the releases comes out for this game That's amazing So, but yeah, look forward to seeing what's a os war cry also known as a os additional model supply game number two And of course underworlds.  Why isn't the left column the sci-fi column and the right column the fantasy column? Why are they switched like this? They have to alternate because you had all 40k first. Uh-huh. You would have 30,000 people on the stream and then drop down to 15 you need to mix it So you keep it keep those numbers up keep that average high Look, you could you could do it in whatever order you want during the show Yeah on the marketing slick These two should be switched. Who is in their marketing department? Somebody made this artifact, okay? And I if this got set to me for review and I was in the product team I would say can you please switch these two so the sci-fi one is in one column and the fantasy isn't another column? Because that's how people's brains work It's a problem and they keep doing it and it bothers me so Anyways, I'm never gonna let this go listen gw marketing person. I just see you I see you You're very underappreciated you work hard producing all these silly artifacts for all these different announcements and things they have to do So fix this stop this Okay All right, that's the news Let's gentlemen, let's talk about some pick of the week before we get into the old world, but Brendan Why don't you start us off there, but where would you like to begin for some pick of the week? Yeah, so so my pick of the week was go sign up for adepticon I've been involved as an organizer in some capacity since 2018 I Have been the champs to you the last two years boo hiss One of the one of the pieces of feedback we've gotten a lot Really since 2019 was people wanted more one-day activities, so This year more than ever we have more Events on the Aegis Higmar side than we've ever had an offer. We have two sessions the jibbering dome We have another Narrative events in the Festmuir conflict. That's a new narrative event. We have dawn bringers Which is a 1,000 point event on Saturday on Thursday. I'm running 3,000 point tournaments, and then on Friday. I'm running what I'm calling a legacy format where Basically all old models are you know as long as you can get me a war scroll forward is gonna be legal and we've got some different activities Running side quests if you cap the max level on to your last side quest it out Sure I'm really excited about that one because there's some old missions. I plan on digging out and third edition of fine For its so I think that'll be fun But one of the big things we've gotten from people is We want more one day so that we can free up our con to do other things. We still have champs. We still have teams You know, it's really looking forward to that. So there's spots for everything still I believe so go sign up Adepticon.org And pick out what you like. Obviously, it's a huge convention. You know, there's there's 40k There is an old world events. I have no hand in running that it sold out immediately Which was pretty cool So I'm sure that they'll be looking to to get more space for that just because of the demand for it Was really high So, yeah, so that's that's my pick of the week Mr. Tristan Gray asked Champs is win what what days is champs in this year as the actual yeah, so champ champs is Thursday Friday Because now that we're doing the teams format for the age of Sigma side The teams format for 40k has been the big showpiece event for adepticon for a number of years They want the same thing on the age of Sigma side So that those two events are side-by-side and for the end for the display on Saturday night to just keep it all going that way Very nice, and I will be judging again paint judging for the AOS event So looking forward to seeing some awesome armies there this year And Travis Griffin says he's taking Tomb Kings to the legacy at Tristan Gray. Very nice.  Yeah, exactly Very nice. All right Okay Chuck, what do you got for everybody for pick of the week? I took the Tyler style to fulfill that role this So three picks so obviously face old world content face hammer Russ over there's doing a great job With his coverage of the old world Also, I want to shout out the square based Podcasts Rob and Val over there are doing a phenomenal job and definitely developing a nice community. I jumped into their discord It's non-stop actually had to mute it because it is truly non-stop and then the Shoot actually I sent this to you a while ago. What was the third one? Don't when I said this I've got your third pick because it's coming at you with irresistible force It is the dwellers below Coming back very well Yeah, they have one episode out now. That's just a pure nostalgia hit those those gents over there Just I I Listen to them. I want to grab a beer and I just want to sit for the four hours They're what they're gonna talk about old world. So yeah happy to have them back agreed. I love the dwellers guys They're all great guys. I'm proud to have been part of The recording of the only episode they ever did that was so bad and went off the rails so horribly that they could Never release it to the public without ruining Reputations of pretty much everybody involved and it was just it was just awful and they never released it So there you go. That's lost a time and we're all the better for it but the I Too picked up and listen to that dwellers episode. I've been listening to square based a bunch I listened a bunch of rust stuff. I'm with you as we're all you picked many of the things that I was gonna say But instead I'm gonna pick something else that I've been sure that I checked out which was our good friends Andy and Rem Mr. Remington steel good for a good old friends from the good old days Who are back and did their own old-world review show taking a look at it? So I have linked that down there as well always good to see those two gentlemen hanging out together talking Rem Getting in some old-world discussion in between his his like world touring as a musician So, you know like this guy This guy's around here touring all over the world playing in a band and he still managed to find a little time to get on and talk about toy soldiers He's like the coolest guy so There you go at any rate Check all those out. Everything is linked down in the description because tonight I actually have two co-hosts who are responsible and sent me their links early So I was able to post all of them in advance I'm like Why I'm allowed to forget about it because I sent it to you. I'm like it's an it's in Vince's hands now He can tell me what my pigs were I sent it to him exactly exactly All right, so check all of those out and yeah I've been I've been absorbing a great deal of that content So thank you to all the content producers who were working hard this weekend Let's talk about some hobby time gentlemen Well hobby time Brendan obviously not gonna be able to show anything mr. Frozen camera, but what do you know? Oh, it's all good. Yeah, so I've been working out so I play in the adeptic on teams every year and You got to start early so I have been working on my part of our teams My part this year is iron jaws. So I'm going with the more traditional kind of yellow iron suns Looks really good. Yep. And Really looking forward to what we're doing as a team this year I I won't quite spoil it right so in previous years. We did the big Red Keep we did the four seasons of Sylvaneth and This year we're going a different direction. We're still gonna go big display board We're still gonna go lots of conversions But we're gonna we're gonna take on something that I don't think anybody's done yet on the AOS side very effectively Yeah the Your team is known for the most Ridiculous display boards like if people don't know what he's mentioning when he says the red keep This is one of the most legendary Display boards that has ever been at an event ever It's actually so big I would say they need to make another category because it's bigger than a display board it is Yeah, there's like really a board size put together. Yeah, it's amazing And it was more than six feet tall so Yeah, that's that's all mr. Trunzo. That's uh, he's We break up the the labor across the teams, but he basically insists that he does the display board and We're all completely fine with that. Yeah, Trunzo is not short I say this to say when the display board was up on the tables He had this extra thing he could do like the one of the models sat at the top of the tower And he had to have a step ladder so that he'll get up on the step ladder to put the model back in its position Okay, and he's like, I don't know how tall strength of six six one six two somewhere in that range probably, right? So like his reach is pretty high and he couldn't get there. He had to get up higher That's how ridiculous this thing was if you search for for sort of the red keep display board adept con on Google I'm sure you'd find it. I wish I had a picture I could bring up. Yes, it was I'm the GW page. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep. Uh, okay So All right, let's uh, what about you there Chuck? We've been working on. Let's put in your hobby time Well, my most my hobby time the biggest part is a project I cannot talk about. Yes. Yes, right over here Vince knows that idea. Well, um If you're gonna be an LVO, I goes yeah tomorrow's gonna be a 16-hour day so I can ship it out Friday, but if you're gonna be an LVO, you may be able to see it So wait for that. I'll say that playing with my game group the barn owls We're playing a lot of old fantasy. We play 8th edition. We have never really Stopped the past couple years. We started out an AOS map campaign tonight Love the next thing So it's so fun. We're actually doing a duel. So there's our art the Ohio sister club Ren for yep who made the actual campaign and did all the printing So it's two map campaigns at once that will cross pollinate with over the next year Which is actually good because old world's gonna take a lot of us by storm So this guarantees once a month, we will get ages sigma games in so we don't lose track of that Which is a good thing nice and but once this big project that I can't talk about over with I have a whole living city's army ready and waiting primed And I just want to dive in and start painting it slowly Very nice. I love it. I love it For myself my hobby time.  I love the new Bretonian Pegasus I was always a fan of the Pegasus So and I did the sort of dark Pegasus look I saw that they this is like on the website one of the painters one of the heavy metal painters did that or whatever And I thought it looked cool. So I did that too So I did that guy and then I'm working on something else that for some reason I can't share with everyone So I'll just say it's on this base right here. That's what's working on. I can show a base This is just me holding a base What could it be a base? This is a big base. It could be anything. It could be a boat. Yeah Could be a model on that base even there could be but that's the other thing that I'm working on and It's a it's a bit of a project But I'm very very very very very very excited about what I'm doing here. So we'll we'll see how it all comes together Okay With hobby time concluded I'm gonna say to everybody. Hey, if you haven't hit like yet, please do so I imagine this will be a rather controversial episode and by that what I mean is before I logged in today We started the show. We already had some people hit and dislike because we're talking about the old world There's gonna be a lot of people who are out there wanting to yuck each other's yums on both sides That is to say like there's people who are gonna be like why are you talking about the old world? And just like the people who were like, why do you like AOS?  I like Warhammer models and although the old world is Not the most interesting setting to me. I'll be honest I do like that. We're in a new time period here, you know sort of 500 years before and 2276 So it is at least something new to explore and I do think for telling some interesting stories there But you can have two things you can like two things or you can dislike one of them. That's okay I if this isn't the game for you, there's nothing wrong with that. Don't play this game I think I think hey, whoa. Hey, whoa said it best It's not for me. I hope they get what they want. That's right Which is which is the the best thing you don't need to hate on any way shape or form if you don't like 40k Don't play it. That's fine. If you don't like Sigmar. That's fine. Don't play if you don't like fantasy That's fine. Don't play right. Just let us have our fun and for those of us who love all of it Well, we're just poor and We've just made poor financial decisions with our life That's right. So but it for for those of you who are here and are interested hit that like button It does help other people find the show and it help it helps It helps fight the haters by spreading some positivity. So hit like hit subscribe do all those things Yes, exactly. Hendricks said I play like five games. I can fit one more in there you go. That's right That's the right attitude. Okay, the champion. That's exactly as someone who consistently writes games and releases them believe me I understand Hendrick what you're going through like because oftentimes when I'm Will be like I'm writing a new game at the same time that I'm Like marketing and we're talking about the game. We just released And so I have to like get my brain in the right space and I'm also playing aos and it's just like What is going on here? Uh, so anyways Let's talk about Core rules and this whole release and this whole thing in the old world. Let's get into it All right, let me go ahead and timestamp this bad boy here Now i'm gonna start we're gonna start with a little bit of an overview Okay, before anything I want to get into just 40 50 000 foot view 40 000 foot view. We're so high above We're up in the aeroplane looking down on this vast landscape that is not europe uh and so I Despite the fact that uh as a as a just i'll give you a little quick Spoiler here. I actually quite like the game Um, but I'm still gonna make fun of the fact that it's not europe and uh, not france is in a war with uh, you know, not egypt Um, so that's you know, I'm never gonna let that joke go. So get used to it Okay, here's my overview gentlemen. I'll be looking to get your feedback after this Okay quick quick thoughts I think at cursory examination like I think a lot of people's first read on this Was that it's just like gonna end up being a reskinned eighth And I don't think that's true at all Uh, I don't like that actually feels the more I read the less that feels accurate I think this draws a lot more on some older editions specifically fifth sixth that kind of uh, slightly old to middle hammer more than anything else A little bit of middle earth strategy battle game mixed in here for fun as well Um, I there are a few larger changes. We'll talk about them But what actually happened here is you've got a lot of when I say changes I mean like over the previous edition like things people would take notice as differences So there are a few there. There are lots of small differences, but they amount to something quite Clever and tight in the way that it changes the overall experience Um, the downside here to this game is This is not a game for new players Like by that I mean like a completely new person to war games or something like that I cannot imagine the world where if somebody was getting into war games I would be like, hey, you know what you should try the old world not even a chance You better have years under your belt before you take this on this thing is 250 pages of rules 250 250 that's a lot. That is a lot of rules. Some might say too many Uh, but it's a lot and the complexity level on this is very high Very high. This is like the most complex game they've released by far and Uh, overall, I just want to say the army release and book strategy is great And I wish we'd adopt the same thing for aos by that. I mean, here's your two tomes This is all the good guys. This is all the bad guys for aos. It would be like this is the order destruction death Chaos grand alliances and then here's some expando pedias full of special characters and and Armies of renown and other stuff like that. I like I would I would I would be so ever thankful if we did that release strategy for aos Uh, because I love it. All right. That's my quick overview Uh Chuck i'm gonna go to you first And what uh any disagreement thoughts feedback additional items? Yeah, I'll just kind of go point by point. So The first point about being a risk in eighth I thought that too as the articles were coming out and then as soon as I watched my first battle report I was like, oh no Different and that was fine. Uh, and it was actually exciting. So it wasn't going to be just like kind of an A known system a lot more changes I agreed a lot of fifth and sixth pulled in a little bit of I think even a little bit of uh Warhammer ancients pulled in like they they went all the way back as they could in whatever game system That was war hammer pull for all which is good because like I said, it made a very unique and I From what it looks like a really good system Really good war hammer system. Um, I will disagree with the downside of 250 pages of rules because even though I have an app There's more 250 war scrolls More than 250 uh data slates Uh, it's just the rules are more upfront in one book as opposed to being spread out across armies downside to that is In sigmar, I can walk up and and play you vince in army. I don't know And you have the rules and I can put the onus on you to tell me those rules It's a little bit more upfront where you kind of needed to know a lot more to play the basic game Um, but at the same time I would also counter. Is it a game for new players? I wouldn't even say that because I started in eighth edition. Uh, vince, when did you start? What what what edition fourth edition? Uh, brendan, what about you? What edition of war hammer? Did you start? Uh In fantasy, I played what amounted to a month of sixth edition. I got the bulk of my play started in seventh So, I mean Where we're at it wasn't an easy onboarding process, but it was still able to onboard and just because We've seen outside of plateaus cave doesn't mean people can't look at the shadows still enjoy themselves As we get them into this. By the way, I I knew that war scroll argument was going to come up So I have a fun rebuttal for that. Okay, it's the easiest one. So I figure get it out early I know and and like again spoilers. I like this game.  It's complex, but it's good Okay, it's not like I'm not making a normative judgment just to be super clear to everybody So if that's your thing, this is you're gonna have a great time with this but Chuck, okay A unit of tomb guard Yeah, okay. Yep Depending on exactly how you choose to hit them or whatever like rules But the way I would build my tomb guard the way they're built as modeled and the way I would choose to Well, hold on before you go deeper. Are they on chariots? Are they on foot? No, no I understand that. Okay. I'm gonna talk about this positive thing. I love that. I'm so here for that Very excited. But no, just just standard old tomb guards your regular run of the mill Slightly elite dead guys Yeah These are these are not like like I got way more special things in my army This is just like my kind of special infantry dudes that aren't normal skelly bellies Right Okay They have 14 Special rules chuck 14 now, I'm not talking about understanding how strength and hit and Weapon scale and all that stuff works. I'm not talking about that.  I'm saying Special rules. I need to understand and utilize that will potentially have an impact on how this thing plays 14 chuck 14 That's a lot. If if they published an aos war scroll with 14 special rules on it Okay, we would riot But that's what you can do when you start hiding crap under universal special rules when you only have to write two words Okay, you can just make things that if you wrote them out, they would be egregious All right, but that's real Okay So at any rate, that's why I don't buy that like I don't know no a it takes five aos war scrolls to get equal to one unit Uh, listen with grand strategies battle tactics sub factions magic spells I would say it gets closer than maybe we we would say here, but also admit You're you're not wrong there and also bury battle tactics in the in the dirt and probably sub factions too Uh, yes, all right, we can the complexity of current aos third is a whole separate discussion But yeah, I'm with you. Yes, and keep in mind. We all love aegis sigmar here and we all love That's right. Yes. Yes coming from a place of love with both of these games. That's right All right, brendan hit me. I want your thoughts jump in here Overview, what did I what did I miss? What are your thoughts here at a high level? Yeah, so the problem is that you and I vince have talked so much about this before the show already So I I fear that a lot of my takes are just going to be vince, but a little bit dumber I don't so the I mean the nail on the head part of it and chuck mentioned it and and it's there in the notes is At first pass it feels like eighth edition and the And so I read my eighth edition rule book in preparation for this to launch because I went It's been it's been a while since I've played fantasy I'll just get a refresher be all that that was in my head I start watching battle reports and I go. Oh, that's that's a little different And we start seeing some other things go. Oh That's Boy, that's a that's a much older handbook the way that rule worked. Um I think one of the most critical elements that is The way you think it works is fear You have to be a fear-causing unit and have your unit strength be greater than what it is that you're opposed to And I as a beastman player remember fear being or terror like the worst thing in the world Sure, um because I was bravery like four And like yep, I got charged by a giant this unit ran my whole army ran sweet good game really appreciated that um There feels like there's more balancing mechanics in the game By intention and by design Then there used to be in in the older editions of fantasy And I watched a great battle report today. It was high house versus beastman and I'm used to you know the elf nonsense and I thought The beastman player is going to get just his face kicked in like there's There's no way but It felt like both players had a good and meaningful opportunity to win that game And the decisions that they made over the course of that game were Balanced by the rules that existed both in in their profiles and those larger special rules as a whole um I I will say though is a mountain to try and understand how much Rules there are and you know chuck. I'm a guy who In ages sigmar you can put down basically any unit Uh across the table from me I know pretty well what that war scroll looks like And that's not a normal thing to have Every player has to have when they come to that table that kind of knowledge when you're dealing with that 200 pages and You know to talk about the entry points for beginners Um, I started playing war hammer fantasy battles as as a teenager and my introduction to it was a lot of hand holding by What I would later come to learn were very competitive players in In war hammer fantasy that were bringing me along and and let me make ton of mistakes And we we basically started playing doubles because there was a couple of people my age Who wanted to start playing we didn't have armies They'd bring their second armies with them. We played double events and we'd just pair You know a veteran player and a younger player And and we go about it that way and that's a totally legitimate way to go about doing this, but If you and your body are both new to this, I mean man, I I can't imagine How big of a mountain this must feel like because When we were recording my latest episode of cubic shenanigans My co-host dan had never played war hammer fantasy Dan is you know in his mid 60s He's played every war game under the sun. It seems like There's no set of rules that he hasn't seen before and he said to me he goes Who is this for this is crazy? It's like I was like damn. This is not a game for you. I promise like Yeah, um, you know, I'll happily teach him if you wanted but the um There feels like and I was worried at first it wasn't going to seem that way But there's a lot of intention In the way that that some of this broke out in terms of the rules itself Yeah, I I can't speak to some of the other decisions that were made Around the game, but at least the rule set itself feels really intentional on how it all interacts with each other And and that was super cool to see Completely agreed completely agreed. Yeah. All right Uh, let's see. Let's let's move to a little high. Let's move from overview to some high level thoughts I know it sounds like the same thing, but it's different. Why is it different? Don't worry about it. Uh, because I needed two slides for all the summarization things and I wanted to name them different titles Uh, you you make the preso if you've got a problem. What do you what do you want? All right? Come at me now Do warhammer daily come on. Yeah, one of them. Uh, you know, I agree. That's a wonderful bridge to this to this Uh, to this next sort of the high level thoughts This game is very well designed and thought through. I like your statement of intentionality You really do feel it once you start reading in there. Like it's it is Well thought through they've handled corner cases. They've made everything clear. You can trace from a to b There's generally going to be an answer to the questions you have in the book The sort of secondary and tertiary consequences of a lot of design decisions have clearly been thought through Right and they've they've Come with what seems like a pretty Uh You know impressively balanced now. I mean over time. We'll see. I don't know if there's broken combinations Who knows at this point like I'm sure there are I'm sure we'll find them eventually Yeah, but like I don't care about that like stacked like stacked up and being played kind of within the spirit of what's written there It feels like things are definitely well aligned But they are cumbersome you are talking about stacks on stacks on stacks of rules like a will reference b b will reference c c will reference d like oftentimes you will have to go down a rules rabbit hole to actually find the answer of like How a thing works, right? um like that's just the nature of of the thing and the I think I want to talk for I want this is this is the point gentlemen where we have a quick discussion about the initial armies that are in the game Versus the supporting No, they're all in the game. They're all in the game. I don't want to hear it. That's fine We you could tell like I think you've staked out your position, right? Um, but obviously we have the situation where they've said these are the nine armies In the old world that will be supported And these are the pdf's that we're going to put out for the other armies, right? And so this is the two worlds we live in And how exactly we're all supposed to feel about that I think is a very personal thing. It's very up in the air Like if your army is one of the ones that's just one of the supported ones You're probably like, okay, whatever. No skin off my nose If you were, you know, really really here for scaven Uh, sorry about your luck, right? Um as as was the giant rat that makes all the rules in our chat right now Which is one of my favorite names not my favorite. That's clearly arrested at the waffle house I don't know if you're here arrested at the waffle house. I hope you watch this always my favorite my favorite name for a viewer there But chuck.  Yeah so Here's the it feels like with with the way everything we've seen so far with the initial release that I don't think that they would have Just passed on the legacy armies and also like legacy not legend. Um, so they're they're getting rules I have a feeling that the rule set that comes out for them is going to be As full as what we see in horses of fantasy and ravining hordes Obviously arcane journals are at additional top of that. They're not getting that. That's fine. We we knew that for months in advance um The only point of contention for me is that they're not going to be viable for Pornemates, obviously, that's gw specific But as someone who also to is for gw that's Point where i'm like i kind of disagree because i'm feeling they'll be okay And i don't know why that decision was made Um Like personally any events. I run. It's not for games workshop. I'm going to allow all of them I think it's going to be perfectly fine. Uh, and I think they'll be in and also too. Let's be honest If you look at those legacy armies You can buy most of those much more readily than you can Say hi out. Oh, yeah, or what else at the moment? So, uh, I don't know what the decision was I'm not privy to any of that nor do I try to figure out what that is. It's that's that's beyond me, but Um, I think they're going to be perfectly viable to play At any level.  You're going to be perfectly fine. Obviously if you go to an event ask your to just like anything else But I'm not concerned with them being underpowered. I just they're not going to be supported Which we all knew for a long time Sure. Brandon, where are you where are you happening on this? What's your what's your thoughts? Yeah, certainly at initial release. I I don't see a reason why non gw tournament organizers wouldn't wouldn't allow it Um, you know, maybe two or three years down the line as the game evolves I could see an argument being made for hey these maybe don't It's don't really fit but that's because the game will have ideally evolved You know, if everybody's got an arcane journal and the power level isn't quite there, but then That's right. Well the dangerous word comp Um, but that's a situation where you sit down and you say if there truly is this huge disparity and people being able to play this game And have fun How much more does it take to bring them back into the field? Is it another 200 points? Is it, you know, um Or to throw this out since brandy and I both to like It is it is the option for this to Have a community establish and a pseudo arcane journal for these armies or to just say no arcane journals No, that's that's a question If that's the deal breaker sure Because the thing that I really like about the arcane journals as far as I understand them Is it's you know, is its army composition change and its access to the special characters and And we remember from fantasy. There were some special characters that were that were back breaking um Really in the end times looking at you malik if um Yeah, I know laryl. I get that I know that yeah It right it happens if the special characters the problem right then we pull the special characters if If it's so clear and so obvious where the problem is because of development. I I don't think that some of The things that it takes to fix it wouldn't be so hard to do Um It it seems like a strange decision again to your point chuck that they would say hey, you can't play these at gw events I get that they're trying to focus in on a specific thing But I want to say that for the horse heresy they did the same thing to begin with And then those other ones got books, but obviously the the scope of it is a little bit different Um, and I'd be surprised that some of these armies never ever got anything ever in the history of Them running a an old rank and flank fantasy game like that It just seems odd to me they might move the focus over there where they become the primary armies, but I I don't know that seems it seems a little odd to me Yeah, and you know, I've seen a lot of people sort of hope him their way into saying like well eventually They'll have to support him and they'll add him and what we will get books eventually and I'm like I don't know man. Maybe like like I'm gonna take them at face value here I can't react to what the future brings sure that could happen. They could That Super success could happen and they could end up getting books or full support Yeah, it's possible that game could also fail and then they could just be like no never mind We tried it and it didn't we're just gonna let it try to slowly die after a couple years, right? Like if you're gonna consider the super rosy case, you've got to consider the consider the super negative And I don't like to to mess around with any of that because who knows what the future brings I like to talk about the here and now and what it is And I think what it is right now for my estimation is For most toos, I think they'll exist in the same position Chuck that you just said, right, which is most toos will be like, yeah, sure They're all all these armies were came out at the same time. They're all probably tested together They're all basically the the same have the same amount of support. So sure like, okay They're not allowed at official gw events, but most other toos will allow them, right? The question is just exactly what you said, Brendan, which is how long does that last? If if if they don't get touched at all as they've said right now, they don't plan to touch them forever We'll see what ever actually means But And the the sub corollary question there is How fast do the regular Rules change and get updates and have new books or supplements or yada, yada, yada, yada updates, whatever, right? because the In aos these pdfs did not last very long about six months Right before they were and and that was during a very poor awful launch of nonsense where they had no idea What they were doing for a good solid year into the game And So realistically here, I think they have hopefully a much cleaner clearer launch plan as to what they're trying to do here Uh, but it just is like what do we get? Two years six months three years how how fast does change come? That's what it's going to be determined for now. I would say hey They're going to be perfectly playable. Let's enjoy that while it lasts and If there's demand if people enough people are playing them if they hear that then perhaps they respond That's I think what we can say it and what I've said on my shows too is you know, definitely offer that feedback that you would you want to see them exist, but make sure you do it with kindness kindness in your heart Like I I think they will listen if enough of us speak up. They're like, no, we actually want these armies Please can we have them? But don't be berating. I'm like, oh, I'm gonna Now burn my dark elf army again because they don't exist in two years time like just You know offer the feedback do it with kindness But also right now I'm just play if you have an army and you want to play it just play it. You're fine I think they didn't bring back really wanted to see that Sorry, Ben's go ahead. No, I was just saying I think they didn't bring back dark elves Specifically despite death. Holy death. I know everybody's saying oh the reason These models aren't here is because of you know, like aos and it's a two different game companies It is there's two different studios basically living in the same company and they compete financially with each other and blah blah blah blah Right. Yeah, exactly. So like I don't know. I don't know the internal politics of what's going on I'm sure like somebody made a decision. I don't agree with it. But here we are I'm gonna start the conspiracy theory that the reason the dark elves didn't get brought back was simply despite death Holy death since he burned his dark elf army and they're like, oh, yeah, well, let's make sure that guy's decision stays correct I I I did call out real quick when I first saw that I was like, oh man That's stupid because I was a high elf player during that time. Sure now my dock focus I I that video will pop up and I see like witch elves burning. I'm just like, oh no. Oh no Yeah, yeah All right Okay, let's switch gears here and go back to the game itself Uh, I will say that my high level thought is the pace of the game the internal pace I mean like actually playing the game Will be much more measured and careful This is not a first turn Lots of action game. Not only are you you're the way your units are moving you need to be more careful You need to be setting up things Counter charges and stuff like that are very important. Your positioning is very very very important And units don't tend to just smash the other unit off the table unless it's like, you know Hitting some dumb chaff thing that's literally there and meant to die and it's getting hit by a hammer Of course, it's gonna die but um You know, it's I think it's gonna rely a lot more on like push and pull And back and forth a lot of like breaking and and moving and giving ground and then rallying and And or fleeing and rallying or whatever it is stuff like that Uh, I don't know Brendan. What do you think I'm gonna start with you this time?   You're gonna go, okay You win by this much roll the dice. Here's the results. What do you want to do? Right and It felt really clean And it felt like that those actions Resolving themselves as quickly as they do just kind of move the game along and it feels like something is happening Right.  We played so brendan. I played a game this last Saturday to get ready to you know both in prep for the show and because we wanted to play the game and Only one time did I roll more than 10 dice? Okay, that was pretty cool And like that actually just makes the game go a lot faster We talk a lot about what makes aos take time And one of the things that makes aos take for freaking ever often is just the dice rolling It's just making like 32 million attacks. It's one of the reasons I love playing sons of bat mod again is because like Uh, you know, I'm just basically rolling like four to six dice Right like hit hit wound good done next it's fast when you have to pick up a unit and be like, okay Each of these guys has three attacks. It's I get to attack with let's see 32 of them. Okay. That's 96 attacks And you know other weapon profiles, right? Right? Yeah, exactly like that. It just takes a long time to roll through all those find the hits Separate them out. Oh on a six. This special thing happens. Okay, blah, blah, blah, right? Yeah, whatever. All right So here's my next high level thought Uh, many of the worst sins from 8th edition if you played 8th edition are nowhere to be found here So they've like a lot of these things have been Re-removed from the game because they weren't in older editions. They were just like Secondary consequences of the way that they wrote 8th edition So this is things like railroading or six dice skilling Where meaning just you do you throw six dice to the biggest spell and hope to wreck your your enemy's entire unit and and call it a game um character loading character loading means just like the entire front rank of my Uh My unit is characters, right? So you have to split up all your attacks individually and they're all tough as nails and I never lose combat res, right?  Please. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah That's what we call some high elf bs right there. Oh, you're bringing me back. Yeah, exactly Um, yeah, no, I mean like a lot of that stuff is gone, right, which is good. It's a very good thing Uh, I don't know anything dad brendan any additional thoughts on that one? The the scaven slave Murder bus being gone Sure. Yeah Because one of the big changes is is the difference between, you know Marching formation and just your regular fighting formation And that there are things you just can't do and that's um Back to the point of it feeling really intentional And like you said earlier, I'm sure we'll find the All all game systems have weak points. I'm sure we will find the places that break them um, but some of the stuff that Was familiar in terms of being really unfun Um to play against just you just can't the rules don't let you so that that was really refreshing to see and You know, it it feels like just a rank and flank where Your stuff has some level of balance versus what you're what you're opposed to Yep. Yep, absolutely My last high level thought Is if you are a fan of old or middle hammer, this may very well be and it's something you should really look into Um, it's much heavier than those especially like fourth or fifth. As I said, I started in in fourth Um late fourth so much like your experience with sixth or like I started right at the end of fourth and then went into fifth edition Um, though many of us were still playing with fourth edition books for a long time, obviously But it feels quite clean. It's like a cleaned up expanded version of sort of middle hammer is really what it felt like to me as I said with a little bit of like, uh Sprinkles of middle earth strategy battle game put on top there just for for funsies I said, don't forget about the sprinkling of like the modern game design like the magic phase changes like it's it's It's a nice blend of all of it like As a bs high elf player from eighth edition. Do I miss the magic phase? Do I miss always strikes first? Yes But I know why they're gone and I'm not upset by it. Yeah, sure sure absolutely Yeah Okay, cool. Good. All right. Let's leave high level thoughts behind And now let's go here to things we love all right Uh All right, things we love or things to love. I don't know if it's we love. It's this is look. I wrote this list Okay, I wrote this so they can all disagree with me. Maybe this is something they love. I don't know But I in my mind this is things to love.  Here we go New magic, uh, this is a bold swing Right not having a magic phase and instead magic integrating into sort of every phase It can be kind of annoying at the at be the first to remember what casts win and under what conditions you can do it And can I do it if I'm in combat or against somebody who's in combat and something like that? But once you kind of get it under your once you get that That muscle memory established, honestly, it feels pretty great Um having magic be interwoven Throughout all of the phases of the game and being kind of present Makes the game feel more magical like it makes you feel like you're playing in a magical fantasy world Like people commented it feels like that this is a more low gritty game Ironically because of the way they've interspersed magic This feels more magical than any previous edition of war have because like mages are always ever present doing things, right? Now the flip side of that is like the spells aren't immediately impactful. There's no like oops. I killed your whole unit. Okay Oh, thank goodness.  It was like, okay That's like four wounds with no save, you know, wasn't that hard of a lift, right? um But but my point is is that for the most part they're not game-winning on their own, but they're impactful In a like a material way and proper use of them in the phases Leads to outcomes. They become part of your overall strategy Just like moving is just like, you know, where you have your your troop set up What's your counter charges? Like using the right spells the right time becomes a really interesting part of that That overall tactical play. I think it feels really good Okay Uh, so that's that's my first one. I lied instead. I was gonna tell you why it's obvious.  What do you think? What do you think about new magic? Good Yeah, the so So the the thing the the thing that you're talking about In terms of being impactful and knowing when to do stuff Our game really evolved as the game went on because you and I started to figure out the spells in our in our pockets Had different purposes Yep Then maybe what we what we thought they did at first pass And you drop the the tomb king vortex spell that dropped bravery and an aoe and as we were resolving combat we went oh Right. Oh, this is like this is a big deal like you know the like Yeah, the the placements of it the timing of it was was key and critical and and it was and it was a big deal Um, I love that we were always doing something with our wizards and it feels like if you're Playing against an army that will be magic heavy Even if you don't have a ton of wizards You're always going to be able to do something about it because nothing felt worse in in fantasy when you got over to the magic phase and You were playing against inch and they had right level four and they took their sixth dice or against elves Boom chuck it super big spell your initiative zero Pit of shades sick, you know, you're going to lift 50 of these and That like that's it The interaction back and forth was cool the limited to 2d6 plus your caster level both directions was cool It never really came up in terms of miscasting on the on the dispel But there being risk in every action you take Is is a great mechanical add to to the game It it means that sometimes you're just going to go look this wizards on one wound left I it's unlikely that I had bind this and I Cannot risk the the you know the chance That I'm I'm going to see this blow up and then you also have a tool in your pocket where you can throw the unbind Without your wizard being the risk Yep, that's really cool Absolutely agreed And we'll talk about all that you like we're going to go phase by phase Later on in this presence So don't worry we will we will do the blow by blow and talk about some of the like Things to watch out for any important elements of each phase and stuff like that But I wanted to start with the things we love things we hate things. We're not sure about stuff Okay, army building your army will generally feel like an army in most cases unless you want to go truly crazy You can build your force how you want especially when you factor in the expand OPD armies now I love this this is this is actually my preferred army building system I'm just going to go ahead and like say this outright I always I never liked the sort of what we adopted and I think it was like six seventh eighth where they he went to like The zero to this many points you do this thing and you get this many lords and so like this This is much more a kid the way it currently breaks down is by percentages and stuff like that and we'll talk about army building later in detail, but This is more like fifth edition like that was how it was Percentages you allocated different things and you had like the alternate armies in the back of the book and stuff where you Changed who fits into what category hence switching around the percentages and stuff like that That's what the expand OPD armies do as well So for example, like if you're really into tomb kings ushabti, let's say all right as I am Right. Well, then let me tell you all about the mortuary cult right where they suddenly become a core choice like that's great right because now you can have a bunch of ushabti And so stuff like that's really meaningful impactful. You can still build your your army pretty pretty Interestingly and I really like the way that you can just like swap it out and Being a percentage. I like it as a percentage with the addendum of You know one plus you got to have one or more of these or zero to one or zero to three or something like that Also being in there. That's great. I really like this method of army building Uh, I just think it actually leads to to a really interesting balance lever as you can pull Chuck where you living on this one? Oh, I love it. Um The sigmar list building and 40k list building never really did it for me with the current editions Uh, I'm not if I I get with sigmar like As a comparison point like battalions. That's where you want to go into your deep List building tool, but that doesn't feel the same void of me. I When I went to the square base gt at the end of the last year I was the person who happily sat there with a list with 50 to 100 points left Spending hours figuring out where to put those points in and I feel like that's the case For this list building in this game, but with as you Say to expand the pedia armies we get that joy of sigmar where it's just like hey Here's a thing you love we've tested this and balanced it in a way that you can actually bring what you like You can bring that all plutonium mounted for so you can bring that Chatty and it's going to work just fine.  So I I'm a fan of this list building and I will spend hours in list building Even the sigmar I still spend lots of time list building That's where I probably spend most of my hobby time and in this style of game With the granularity of it. I will spend even more time with it So I I'm a fan that we Have that granularity plus also the expandopedia to give us that sigmar feel where it's just like I like this thing I can take this thing. Let's go Yep, robert t the expandopedia armies are our little name for There it is arcane journals arcane journals. Yes in these there are Additional armies like here we go the tomb kings of kemory mortuary cult which changes your percentage Like what fits into what percentages and where like it changes who's in what category and stuff like that Um, I also just want to take a quick moment here To to to just really celebrate something else chuck. Are you ready for this? I want this to come back Brendan, I think you're going to be with me on this. So In the expandopedia armies So for example Yeah, there we go in this You'll notice here. Well, you can't read it obviously. This is very small text to you watching at home But up here in the character section It says zero to one tomb prints or arch necrotech Per a thousand points arch necrotech. That's not a thing in ravining hordes. That's not an existing unit I can't go to the store and buy an arch necrotech But when I flip forward in the book here They hear why why what do I find but the rules for an arch necrotech, right and down here at the bottom It says representing this unit in your games Painted in rich and vibrant colors or mounted upon a scenic base an arch necrotech can easily be distinguished from a humble necrotech What I love about that and this they do this throughout or you mentioned the tomb guard chariots where you can put tomb guards on chariots and they're representing it in your game is I don't know man put a couple tomb guard on a chariot go nuts, right? Like they treat you like an adult Uh and say here's some cool ideas for units No, we don't make specific models for these But we trust that you're an adult and can figure out how to take a tomb guard and go Hold on. I've got a chariot and a tomb guard a chariot And a tomb guard Hmm Oh my god Right, and it's just like Like they just trust you to be an adult and they don't limit the what the units they can create to only the models They can make they let you they they they play they it's like some jazz, right? They're just they're playing with the ideas of the thing And i'm here for that a thousand percent man, you know when I certainly when I was coming up in warhammer You don't open your book and there'd be things in the core book that they didn't that didn't exist They never made models for some of those things I say there's multiple dark elf characters one out because in the last year I spent completing my eighth edition armies which meant kit bashing heroes Especially in the dark elf line that they never made models for there was no even art pictures. It's just hey This is the this is the uh executioner hero. Here's his story Have fun. Okay. I just grab my bits and go to town. Yeah, yeah Like I love it. I really love it. I cannot explain and it honestly like I wish aos trusted us to be adults I really do but they don't want to put things in a book that doesn't have a matching kit And I just think the game's worse for it. Like I was so excited when I saw it I am gonna roll some vener blue shop tea I am gonna bring out an arch neck or tech like that mortuary cult is where I'm living Let me just tell you right now. I'm here for it. Let's go. Let's go Uh Brendan anything else that we missed on that one anything else you wanted to add in? No, I mean, I'm building a beast lord on razor gore chariot after our game. So, you know a model that doesn't exist and Um, very pleased that I happen to have the right spare this right spare bits to make it to make it feel pretty cool Nice nice Uh, I love it. Um Um Yes, uh, so universal special rules is my next item here They do a good job of making the unit feel like the unit but Dot dot dot we'll come back to that in a moment Wait until the next slide um But I mean it is true like when you know my tomb guard example from earlier in the show Where my tomb guard have 14 different special rules that they have to heed and pay attention to you know the Downside of that is it's 14 insane rules the upside of that is Yeah, man in the end they do feel like tomb guard like the combination of stats and all those rules Really does make them feel like the thing and when I looked through a lot of the units in a lot of the the Books I would look at their sort of combination of rules and be like, yeah, okay I see how we're getting that feel like these feel like my image of the thing There's very little ludonarrative dissonance here, which is nice Uh, chuck, where you living on this one? Any anything to disagree with? I I I see I know the pros and cons uh having listened to you Vince about universal special rules What I do like about them in general is if you're playing those tomb guard and you have to learn those 14 universal special rules Well, guess what you now know them. So whenever they come against you you understand what they are That's that's the benefit. Um, I I like universal special rules, but I also see potential downsides I'll leave it that but I'm I'm Over I'm 70% a fan of them over naught. There you go. That's fair Brendan anything else to add here? No, not really. I I think Chuck summed up, you know, this pretty well. It's It's it's a double-edged sword, but You know, it's it's not supposed to be an uncomplicated game. I don't think yeah, indeed Don't worry. We will return to this one in just a moment Uh, because I'm still not a fan of us ours Uh, but I like them here. I both like them and hate them That's part of the problem with them like most things in game design. Nothing's all bad or all good All right new movement rules very clean when combined with unit types You have to think ahead your movement really matters as it should love This I am such a big fan of the new movement rules and how they're implemented Especially when combined with the unit types of like You've got an open order unit and it's this kind of of thing and what it allows and then like you It's it's really nice. It makes the units move and act and feel Really differently it gives them really solid roles. It makes you use the pieces in particular ways I'm here for it. I love it like man. I really dig it. It's nice They put together a good set of movement rules and I can't think of anything more important in a rank and flight game like this Uh, brennan, I want to start with you here. What do you what do you think on this one? Yeah, this was one of my biggest gripes specifically as a beastman player was My army in game should not be behaving So much like most armies we were coming across you're probably the most similar with something like wood elves And they got all the fun movement shenanigans and we got none of them So much of it being tied to just a couple of universal special rules That that really let you change the way a unit behaves So easily and so quickly in such a small way But balance and offset by different benefits that you gain Felt really cool. Um, you know, it's one of the things that After we walked away from from our game that I was thinking about more and more and more was The difference being close order the difference between open order the difference between skirmishers And how that interacts with the different unit types beyond that Um, and and so that I think is really going to shape a lot of people's play experiences because there's a lot of Creativity in terms of how you go about playing your game With with those rules at your disposal. It's it's so cool Agreed agreed Okay, uh, my next one here is new combat results Um, though it is a real challenge to get your head around which is a barrier of entry like I will openly admit I had to read this like five times, but I said the same thing about the enhancement system in aos And so, you know, I like it's not no game is perfect Uh, it is a real challenge to get your head around how it works that being said it is a great system Like I actually really like that they change the outcome from binary You stay and keep fighting you break and probably die Right like those are sort of the two ways it tended to work in the old in the old way Unfortunately, yeah from that to A myriad number of different situations to you do stay and don't move depending on what happens because there's certain things That where you just won't move at all There you give ground which means you pop back a couple inches and they can choose to kind of pursue and follow up with you Right and just kind of move back into combat You Break but then rally. I don't remember the exact name of it. I don't remember in front of me. I'm sorry It's a little look at it later.  You know out of that all that good order. Yeah, fall back in good order Thank you very much. That's the right thing And uh, and then you break and flee right so if I were where it's traditional And you're just you're you're you're running right and There's a lot of complexity as to win those things sort of Can be modified like if you read the base rules they can also get changed Like it's a little complicated in base and it gets a little more complicated when you kind of Break different stuff in like unit strength things like that. But I really like the The nature of combat resolution and stuff like that. I think it's really really interesting Leadership is really important sickness maximus says what I've seen the combat rules makes me think it really hurts The low leadership armies. Is that the case? Keep in mind Most armies do not have amazing leadership This isn't like a os where like huge swaths the game or leadership 10 Like most leaderships suck or and or are being modified by the characters that are in them or within command range of them and stuff like that so You know, yes and no. I mean like most people are actually going to end up around the same ish Um leadership it means that like spells that modify leadership and stuff like that are really really really powerful Um in that they'll they'll move odds just a little bit again It's like it's just moving those odds around you're just moving those odds and creating the chance creating outs creating opportunities those kinds of things all right Brendan I'll go to you here again first. We think about the new combat result thing And I I loved him it it really I want to say unexpected is that's not the right word um but it it resolved itself in in a way that I really wasn't planning to I I kind of approached it to An older game of war hammer fantasy and we started to get into combat. It's like oh Oh, no This is this is not going the way that I thought it was And you know stuff was breaking and fleeing where it was a combat that both you and I um Basically at the point of charge we said like oh like this is this is good for you or oh, I really like being here And that combat almost Certainly when we got to the res was like oh no, this was bad Right, right Yeah It was great too because it happened back and forth like Brendan charged me and I was like, oh no, I lost I'm dead right and then it turned out like oh actually we it was okay We kind of turned even and then I had a good counter charge and he was like all right Well, you know still okay. These are very killer unit and then like the res just went way in my favor And and it was like whoa. No, this is terrible But then in chasing him down, I brought myself into Into range of like his one of his big killer units and then hit me and I was like, yeah, I'll be fine And then I was like nope not fine. Oh, no, he's crumbling to dust. Oh god. We've chosen wrong Like it was just so back and forth. It was really great um So yeah, I really I really liked it I just love the the thought put into it The fact that you're not stuck in combat. I think it's probably the biggest Benefit to me like can you still get back in combat very quickly? Yes, but just the possibility of you getting out of a combat that was going nowhere Because those were the worst part of the old fantasy games Or you're just stuck there and grinding away at nothing and hoping for your opponent to roll 12 because they have a leadership 10 And hopefully their bsb is far enough away. Yep. They have the possibility to just fall back in good order and then have some options Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah absolutely And then as I said here my last thing to love is honestly the speed of the game is nice Units don't make a lot of attacks combat results matter how you attack matters your movement matters All those kinds of things I found it to be as I said, there was one one time in the game Where I rolled more than 10 dice at a time And that was 14 by the way because brendon got into like he took What did you take like three units into a chap unit of archers because that was sort of the only choice And there's four archers Oh Yeah And that was just obviously regeneration saves because they had gotten hit by so many so many units and they're like initiative two Uh those poor guys they did their job. They died so that others could live. Um But yeah, I mean like overall, I think it's nice. Okay Cool good Uh The boom let's do things to hate You think hey vince, whoa, I thought you said you loved this game or you liked this game or you're enjoying it Or something you said something to that effect. How do you have a hate list? Look, if you don't like hate or you can make it things. I don't like like whatever. Okay We're just this is the internet. So everything's really strong. All right. It's either best movie ever worst movie ever All right, get off my back. Okay. So here we go. These are the things that I don't like very much about the game I will say on balance. I like the game. I need to keep saying this so people hear me But just like with aos. I like aos a lot and I hate battle tactics. There are things in that game.  Yes, that is the actual rules. The book is 325 pages basically 75 of those pages are lower 250 of those pages are rules Technically, it's probably more like 246 because there's a couple of full art pages in there, but whatever Uh rules are scattered everywhere not always where you would think finding and referencing things is often a challenge As a will lead to b will lead to c and so on and so forth like you look up this thing It sends you to The this place that sends you to the unit type which then references another rule. See you've got to go here It's like, okay. Got it. So my My heavy cab do this which grants them this which has this so I get this thing. It's like, all right Yeah, that kind of stuff Okay, this one I will blow through real quick and I'll let you guys react rather than hit you each time Here we go US ours there are so many they've said there are 75. This is a lie This is a straight up lie Uh, there are 77 base and there are 13 or so more for troop type special rules because each troop type has its own special rules Then there are modifications of those for each weapon So for example a weapon might grant a special rule But only under x conditions like only in the first round of combat or only when you charge or only when you are charged or Only on tuesday And then each army introduces about seven to ten more universal special rules So just to say like the high elves have their own set and tomb kings have their own set and so on and so forth So when you're done, you have about 150 quote universal Real big real real big bunny ears on that one special rules at that point You're just hiding information like this is why I don't like them I really wish they were just more concisely written out I wish they'd put in a cheat sheet that had them all but they can't because there's too many Uh, it's just a problem and like some of them probably don't need to exist is my honest answer like boy Oh boy, do some of them not need to exist Okay um army building I remember when I had that on the things I love I it's here too the same with us ours Um, get ready to fret over the details. I hope you don't suffer from choice paralysis as each unit is packed with options And bought individually and most champions can even take magic items So it's just like I have your sorry cheaty. I'm not gonna say what that is a reference to but if you know, you know um, and you know like the The the nature of this is such that like Buying each model individually. How many exact tomb guard do I want? Are they? Drilled are do they have nahekar and phalanx? Did I give them halberds all this kind of stuff and they're like honestly simpler There are some units that are way worse when you come to the options. You'll look at it. It's just a page where it's like Like okay, these guys can do everything. They have five different weapons. They could choose to buy and yada yada yada yada yada um Don't look if you if you have choice paralysis Don't look at the the I think they're called. I don't know what they're called like bandits or something But they're villains from old uh, the old fourth edition britannia book. That's what they are In in the uh, the border princes Uh, britannia the exiles. Yeah in the exile army So back in like fourth or fifth edition britannia. I think maybe it was even older than that He was third edition god. I don't remember long time ago Long ago before the dawn of man um There was a that britannians when they were much much much meaner and much more french Um had a unit called villains Okay, which was basically like that's that's where the word comes from. It's like bandits on the roadside and uh, they were just like a sort of catch all unit of like dudes who would rob you on the road and they You know had pistols and rapiers and stuff like that was a cool unit, right? And they ended up falling out of britannia when it became a little bit different and solidified It's sort of imagery, but I love that they brought it back That's somebody who has a deep love of the history of britannia. So at any rate those guys have 50 000 different options And then finally war machines, especially stone throwers still bad Still bad. I cannot explain how bad stone throwers still are now given my screaming school catapult round one misfired so then didn't enroll to two or three or something So I didn't shoot around two and then round three it got charged Yay, or no round three everybody was in ray everybody was within 12 inches of me Every unit he had that wasn't in combat Was within 12 inches of me. That's what it was and I was like great Great, I mean as it is Stone throwers only have a 27 percent ish chance to hit that can vary some depending on Kind of how big the unit is you're aiming at and whatever. That's a terrible hit percentage chance Uh, again, it depends on how big the unit is and drift and stuff like that. But but whatever Cannons though still amazing and the one thing they kept here that I am very sad about is 10 from the back 10 from the back Still a thing Uh, this should have been gone. I don't know what the right answer is go back to guess range. I guess. I don't know Um, but like I hate that 10 from the back still exists. It's awful. I hate that it's that can still do what they do No, they're really strong. They're probably the strong war machine. All right. Those are my things to hate Uh, okay gentlemen, what about you don't have to agree with my list You can respond to my list or you can say anything else you've got that might be bothering you or things that were maybe You don't have to hate it just might be that's sort of a maybe a bit of a thorn in your paw as it were Uh Chuck start with you.  So I'll start with you. I'll say I I'm looking at this list I went through it. This isn't things I hate. This is things. I love part two So many rules turn 50. I love that. I don't mind the a to b to see what I do hate is bad index That can go on things I hate Yes, and and that that that only comes up when you play a game with the book I know you two have I have not yet, but I've heard That it's not the best index. So I will put the index on things. I hate but not the rules Uh, the index rules agree pause. Let me answer a thing in the chat room because some people don't know 10 from the back Moldal people ask me what's 10 from the back. Okay. Here's 10 from the back. You ready? This is your unit. Yeah, they're in their little box Okay, I have a cannon.   Yeah So this is then actually where the cannon ball impacts if you're old and misfire then you have some misfire or whatever But otherwise it impacts here. Then you're going to roll the artillery dice again Let's say you roll an 8 that means it bounces the cannon ball bounces from here to here So from the initial roll To the second roll Okay, so it covers this 8 inches everything under that second line gets hit by the cannon all right Mathematically what that means is that the correct answer of how to fire a cannon when you're targeting this unit is say I'm going to pick the center of the unit 10 inches from the back That's it. I'm not going to pick anything else. I'm not going to look at anything else I'm not doing any measurements It's just 10 from the back because mathematically whatever 10 inches is forward That means on the average of the two dice plows the thing through this unit So that's 10 from the back continue Uh universal special rules kind of plays into the first part I don't mind even universal special rules. So I'm not going to rehash that army building. Um, as I said, I love that last 100 to 110 points in fantasy lists where I am agonizing over The magic items and I love that there's more options for it now So it doesn't bother me, but I can see where it will bother some people Um as far as war machines go all right cannons 10 from the back once again I don't know the right answer But also it's only was it d3 plus one now not d6. So my frost phoenix isn't getting turned off turn one by just exploding into ice shards Uh, and if a monster or I think monsters cavalry, correct me. I can't recall Gets hit by a cannon. It just stops bouncing. So there is not monsters. Uh, yeah monsters or behemoths. Yes I know it's monsters behemoths. Okay. So there is ways to screen Correct from cannons. So I I'm not going to say anything about stone throwers. I'm a cannon guy when I played my dwarfs But I think cannons are toned down a little bit more than it used to be is it easy to hit with them still? Yes I won't deny that but uh, no, I I don't hate anything so much on this list other than indexes That's fair enough. Yeah, you're you're what the one cannon won't kill your frost phoenix I would point out however the dwarfs can very easily bring six cannons So I don't know about your luck with the six barrage Do we want to open up cannon worms of 2000 points versus 1999? It'll be discussed later It'll be discussed later. That's for that's for a later point Uh, brendan, what's what's your what's your what's your items hit me here? I chuck nailed it on the head the index is terrible Um, this was one of the biggest problems when you and I were playing was a situation came up I I went to the index and thought to myself boy Dispel feels like a word Is is going to come up and people will have questions about And so I went to the index and I went to d and Like it goes like And then it's like whoop Okay, well, I I guess we'll we'll find something else and then you know something else came up and I went Yeah, like overrun or whatever like yeah that like I don't know what it was specifically But it was just another like yeah that like I don't know where that is I have a very common game word in a situation that's going to happen many times. Yes I've spent eight minutes with these rules. Um, let's you know, let's see what it where it is One of them if one of them like there's not even a letter Or like the word I was looking for and I went You've got to be kidding me and if there's if there's any comp that needs to happen from the community It's right the real index, please. Yeah, yeah Really what they need is a better one of these This is one of the things so they this this is like the the you get this thing But you're gonna see it in more detail in a minute because I used it for to guide our later discussion But you get this which is you know one two three Four pages. It's like your cheat sheet, right comes with the book. Okay The problem is four pages was not enough for a cheat sheet It just wasn't the cheat sheet needs to be like probably eight pages Maybe 12 something like that and they could have done that like there's no reason you couldn't have a foldable couple pages Or whatever, right? Um, but I get it like then then it couldn't be made like this which is printed out and then Folded, right? Yes, um Like it would have required a much more expensive process and so You know, that's what they really need is a better cheat sheet with more of the common things on there Like after the game brendy when you and I were like you were like, hey Did you know you get an extra plus one combat res for this and I'm like no Where's that at and it's like it's not There's a list here of things that add to combat res and we were just following it And I was like, why isn't it on the list and you're like what must be under other bonuses? helpful Right and if anyone out there in the comments, oops, sorry go ahead. No, no go for it go for it I'll say if anyone out there in the comments is talking about the Cheat sheet reference for 8th edition that we all have and I have a bunch of down here to my left where it was Two pages that's useful when we're at the end of the game and we all know most of the rules already It's more of the how does that chart work again? So so it's not it needs to be more robust at the start for sure. Sorry Yeah, yeah So the the thing about that other part in that combat res that drove me nuts is Vince. I I read that rule book Front to back I mean I I fell asleep in a chair reading it at one point The amount of other combat resolutions Uh-huh boy In the core rules is zero Yeah, yeah so um, you know, so there there was a bit of a learning curve for for us there the The other thing that I I really Didn't like as I was going through it. You know, I don't know that it classifies under hate But I I wasn't I wasn't fond of it You know, we played a game and I got the I got the chance to sit through and read these rules was How easy it is to get a small thing wrong that impacts the entire game and Thankfully in in our game that really didn't come up You know some of the interactions that we had would have been cancelled out by some other rule and we we idiot savanted our way into Largely the right answer But there's a number of things in there where it doesn't take much to resolve this in the way that It kind of clicks in your head And then you go do it and at the end of it. You're like, oh my god My unit should have done that which caused this to happen Which caused that to happen and and there's no way of resolving it at that point because you cannot Figure out what occurred and and maybe I'm thinking in Age of Sigmar that it's a little bit Easier to say well this happened And this happened and this happens But if this didn't happen then only this thing doesn't happen I I feel like that cascade isn't as present in in Age of Sigmar as as much as fantasy isn't and that's Part of how the game is supposed to work But man, there are some real tiny things that that can set off that avalanche. Yeah, I agree agreed All right, good stuff. Let's go to my things tbd So this is going to take a long time like not only is there a lot here to ingest I mean, this is a huge amount of content that's dropped right not just the Court rules but all the armies and then the to expand a pedias and you know, it's just like Then the PDFs will be coming too. Like it's just It's a deluge, right? So Some things just haven't had enough play yet. I don't I don't know could turn out to be something I love could turn out to be something I don't like could turn out to be just something that I'm like I'm neutral right? So this is kind of the list. It's things that I found interesting Like they've got my attention. I just don't know what to think about them yet Um, so the first one is unit formations closed order open order, which is which it's not very visually distinct Like it's kind of it is a very relevant thing Uh, like it it matters a lot Whether a unit is closed order or open order matters with terrain and The rank bonus you can claim and uh, like a bunch of stuff And but they look exactly identical. Um, and then skirmishers I like the formations like conceptually like when I read the rules. I really like them I like the way they've distinguished them Them being not visually distinct often is tough Like technically you could set a skirmisher unit up in open order and that would be fine Like you could just have them all next to each other And so it's it's a little weird. Um, because it's kind of hard to say I don't I'm not sure but that matters Might matter a lot might not There's some small memory board on that as well Yeah Maybe because it's it's more of a universal now than then just bring 10 models in a row Yeah, sure. I mean it could be could be absolutely um Memory traps on some things like ambushers Which I'm not sure are worth it at all anyways without special rules Like I think ambushers might be a super duper trap in the way that they work Um, but like you roll to see if they're going to come on at a different time than when you actually bring them on So it's kind of like a you just very different parts of the turn so you can kind of forget Um, so that's kind of a thing Um, everything is initiative and initiative is everything Uh, and yes, I mean that both I mean both of those are true Uh, and I I like it. I think but I also am not sure what that means Because I read the rules for sword masters and then I clenched in my seat and raised up about the bench off the off my chair Uh, so In a world where everything's initiative you're waiting. Yeah, uh, super fast elves are scary um No fighting back if the fighting rank is dead Um, and the fighting rank in general that's that's really interesting to me That's a return to the warhammer fantasy again that I knew that I came up on right, which was like you Step up people don't fight. That was actually a pretty recent thing um And so like having that if you know if the front rank gets wiped out and there's no supporting attacks or whatever then That's it the unit doesn't fight right so like you're done Next This is very step up is very no step up is very new to me as an eighth edition player That's where I cut my teeth, but did you catch on the uh potential first FAQ we need? Uh spearman Oh, okay. Go for it. Yeah, explain. Yes So if you're stepping up from the second rank into the first rank is the ones that can't fight Right, but if you're stepping up from the third rank to the second rank That's not what the rules say and if you're spears you can fight So if you still get to make your supporting attacks, yeah Yeah, so there's yeah, so it's like FAQ time already here. We're already there. Yeah, sure. Yeah, so there's um There's something where it addresses that in a very small way where like those access kills can impact your supporting attacks I don't remember the language for it specifically, but I I agree. There's a level of clarification that that is needed on that because um My first pass at it was similar to yours Chuck where I was like well But no, I I think that they also mean that this is what they want to happen here. Right, right, right Yeah, and then at the same time I like the concept of the fighting rank where like the whole rank gets to pitch in Right, um, that is to say so like to make this more real for everybody um unit Yeah Single character or something something smaller hits it right here So let's say it's not in base to base contact with any of these dudes down here, right or whatever Um, it's not really how it works because blah blah blah, but just I'm making an example Basically if there's people who are outside of base to base contact in any way They still pitch in but they never make more than one attack Which is a really interesting thing for like monstrous cavalry and sort of monstrous Monsters in general trolls, you know things like that um because those guys pack a lot of attacks and so You know suddenly reducing them to potentially one attack because you got like one character into one guy in the middle Who might be tough enough to withstand that one troll or something? Maybe an interesting tactic like there could be a role here for sort of loner things. I'm not sure So that's not bad. It's just an interesting thing Um magic items there are a lot in the books add more and they all have points Are we going to end up in that these are the five good one situation like always? I don't know yet Can't say I look through my magic items most of there. There are Many that I thought about taking but I don't know enough about the game yet to really know what's good or bad so That remains a big tbd and then army balance who even knows at this point nobody knows enough to actually know That's just a giant tbd anyone talking about You know, this army is overpowered or this army is underpowered. I mean like come on man get out of here I've spent the past days since saturday You're consuming as much content as possible and every content creator has a very different Who's going to be the best right now and even while they're saying that the even they go, I don't know This is what I feel Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, and like I'm not trusting anyone's gut at this point. There's too many rules. There's too many new things. There's too much new ones Right like brandon your whole story about the high elves versus the beast man in that matter report Right because like I read the high elf rules and I was like, oh boy But you know like But but I think there's probably built in limitations there And if I played him it would feel different because of the of the way that the game's constructed. So You know, there we go Do you guys have any tbd items like things that have caught your interest, but you're not sure how to feel about them yet? Honestly for me the big one Sorry go ahead. No, no Yeah, so my my biggest one is is the first one is is the formations The the way things move and the way all that is going to interact with each other A close order heavy infantry unit is At the core of your army is going to be a thing that's really tough to to deal with and The way that it works with getting flanked is that might actually be a unit that you might throw On the outside and that the different kinds of units have different minimal requirements for what you need for ranks and so You know, most people running five across or three across for you know, the bigger stuff But some of them require five some require four some require three And the way that that steps and changes I I think will be interesting To see how people choose and use and manipulate all of that But I don't really know what all that looks like right now. Yeah Yep, agreed Agreed That's it for me. It's it's the step up getting used to that um In the context of the rules it seems like it makes sense but getting used to that as a player is going to be very interesting. Um but I mean that that's that's probably my biggest one is the tbd It's like how to step up really function based upon my world as a high-off player because You've always strikes first. I could just I could charge or be charged and don't care I'm going to just probably win this combat if I have the right units, but now Now you're an initiative. Yeah Initiatives much more important and also charge ranges are much less You know broad so like that's my tbds, but that's You know that that's just skill expression that will have to work through Yeah, I I like it's interesting because you know, I was thinking it through and I was like, all right Well, those sword masters are basically initiative seven with their great swords, right, which is very fast But at the same time There's lots of spells that crack initiative down Uh, and you know if those those dudes get charged You know the enemy is going to be plus three initiative plus four if they get charged in the flank It doesn't take much to where suddenly those great swords aren't fighting first anymore right and And you know wiping out a couple of those good boys and suddenly it's no fighting back Right and and resolution tips against them real hard So yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting. Okay Cool, uh Keith Rogers also said is it uh Is the entire tomb king's book still initiative two not really Actually, there's quite a lot of of like their basic skeletons and stuff are all initiative two But there's quite a lot of initiative three and even some four and stuff in there. So it's mixed around I mean, you're not fast, but you're not just that slow Okay phase breakdown Breakdown Uh, so we're going to go through the different phases And we're going to kind of break them down And talk about the various elements of them Uh, especially what's changed and the things you should watch out for Here we go Uh, let's start with pre game. We're going to pre game it boys. All right, we're pre gaming now. Here we go uh so Say this maximus the real question can sword masters hit arrows out of the air again Um, sort of they get a six up ward against Shooting attacks because they have there because they can spin their sword real fast non magical just like it wasn't it Non magical shooting attacks. That's right eat it even though it's even they're moving it so quickly. It's magical But whatever that's right Okay, so so about tomb kings. I'm just going to use this as I'm not we're not going to go through the armies I'm just going to use this to talk about list construction. So we mentioned this earlier. This is my Truly, this is the form of list construction. I really like Where you have these percentage allocations So up to 50% can be characters at least 25% has to be core Up to 50% can be special up to 25% can be rare And then you have 20% in mercenaries and 25 in allies. My honest answer is I hate mercenaries and allies I I really don't like them. Um I kind of wish they would just get jettisoned and kicked off the roof Uh, but here we are. Um, the only thing that I do like in allies is your armies of infamy lists that I like Like if it was just you dipping into your own armies of infamy list where it's like, okay I can reach out my normal tomb kings army and get an arch necrotech or venerable Uh, ushabdi or something like that. I'd be fine. I don't really know like suspicious does have an impact. It matters Um, but like allies and mercenaries just really opens the door weirdly to like some some jank I traditionally don't like it. I like armies being armies and the armies they are But I like this form of unit construction. I like this with with the extra things on You know, you can see like one plus tomb king or tomb prince You can have any number of them up to 50 but you gotta have at least one One plus high priest or mortuary priest again same story, right? And and so on and so forth so Okay cool Uh, yeah I mean anything to say here, this is just list construction. You guys you guys a fan of this It does lead to the 1999 versus 2000 point discussion Uh, but again, I don't care is my answer like whatever man. It's probably it's probably 1999 is the right answer honestly, but here we are I like the two levers. We get the pool with the percentages and the zero Or one plus and all that. Um, I kind of agree with you I I'm I don't hate allies, but I and mercenaries, but I am concerned about them and the potential game breaking Level they pose Yep, yep I mean, I can tell you I'm never taking any of that crap. So there you go None of that stuff is showing in my tomb kings army. Get out of here orcs and goblins warriors of chaos and beast men You're not dead. You don't belong here. Okay. We're dead people only you must be this dead to write this ride. All right, that's it So there we go All right, cool. Uh, let's talk about some other pregame things Because I think this is uh, this is all worth the discussion. Um, okay Uh, there are scenarios six of them in the book Um, they change sometimes drastically your deployment The conditions for who goes first How long the game lasts and to a degree Victory conditions often through like small amounts of extra victory points not hugely, but it's there Um Did you get a chance brendon to look through the in we played obviously like the simple one We played like starter battle plan for babies, basically, right when we played our game Because we were like, which one of these is the most simple that one was what we're doing, right Line up 24 inches away kill each other sweet. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Let's go. Let's go Um, no, I I didn't I didn't spend a lot of time on them. I was I was really more focused on like How What are all of the things that are different that I need to break my brain on so I I didn't spend a lot of time on the missions I was like, oh Angle one. Oh, this is the one where stuff doesn't show up on the board and I went, I hate you We all do Yep, I said, I was pleased because my my favorite and and I'm gonna get hate for this so much my favorite 8th edition scenario was watch tower. Wow. Oh Wow Yeah, I I I that that was my favorite. Well, there had to be one in the world Right I'm I'm it but seeing the change to watch tower now where he's like, no, you can use a hill You can use this and it's not just a binary win-loss Yeah, yeah as a much more mature gamer now that's just bonus points like perfect I like the changes to watch tower I can still play watch tower if I want and I will hold that tower all day But I'm not gonna auto win from it much better. That's right Yeah, I I pretty much like the scenarios. I thought they were I like what they did I like how they kind of changed not only deployment, but a little bit of like who's going first and what's going on There's a couple things I didn't like but legitimately they were like six not too complicated But but varied scenarios pretty pretty good like I read through them I was like, yeah, this is what I was expecting six solid scenarios like at least five of them I I agree. I don't love the whole things back the force told things back in reserve one. So But you know, that's fine Um terrain.  You want hills and forests and buildings. They have rules. They matter They disrupt charges. They rob you of rank bonuses. They're difficult and dangerous terrain really matters They block line of sight. They make it so shooting armies Just can't line up and just blow you to smithereens But they do a lot of other things too um Like it's it it's actually a Pretty deep and interesting set of terrain rules who would have thought Uh, yeah, I I don't know what else to say. It's good Uh, there you go So, um cool good stuff and you know, it's you've got the old stuff like archers can be firing An extra rank and stuff on a hill. That's all present You can draw a line of sight to everybody and everybody can draw a line of sight to you But there's a lot of other stuff going on too I I do really love the way it like disrupts charges Like there should be lots of terrain around the board because making people charge over terrain if they're in closed formation disrupts their charges They don't get the initiative bonus. They don't they can lose rank bonus Um, and but but open order units don't suffer that just to a degree and so on so it's like It's really cool actual distinctions of it makes the units more interesting Uh, given Brendan your uh, your open order army there with beastmen I'm sure you're looking for a heavy terrain board which makes sense And open order and move through cover like the Like that was one of the things where as I was thinking about what ages sigmar boards looked like I was like, oh, wow What a bunch of rules. I'll never get to use and When I got to the terrain section of of the rule book, I was like, oh, yeah No, we we need to make sure that like there's there's stuff on the board like This is This is the point Yep And it was funny too because we set up a piece of terrain and we didn't we didn't remember to make things difficult or dangerous We kind of forgot that we set up all the terrain and where they were what they were like This is a hill there's a building and so on but but we forgot to like make things difficult or dangerous or whatever And so then we put I put this like I have this little particular piece of hill terrain that models will not stand on Like just refuse And Brendan had his big unit full of like metal models That was not in a tray and he can't this poor guy had to like navigate this hill because of course that's where his unit ended up for most of the game He has that giant beastman But remember, you know the beastman banner bear the dude's like looking like this with the big flag Oh, jeez. Yeah, that dude's no chance. Yeah, just no my own nickels is going to hold that guy up No, no way Okay Deployment is mostly a back and forth thing one unit at a time Then all war machines then all characters, which will be familiar to many previous editions In most scenarios, but not all you then roll off to see who goes first and the person who finished deploying first gets a Plus one bonus to the roll. So again the familiar It's not always the case by the by like some of the scenarios don't grant that bonus and so on okay Units might move or have other effects pregame very dependent on the units in the armies So like pay attention if you've got sort of vanguard moves and stuff like that Which will be again familiar to people from previous editions and from aos like this is a classic thing of sort of pregame moving And your formation matters a lot and what frontage you need to claim a rank bonus is based on the unit type Unit type and formation combined to give the unit a real roll. So what that means is like for regular infantry you have to be five across and then less than basically less than five Like at least five across and then That or less deep to be in fighting formation So in other words, if you're five across you can't be more than five deep to still be in fighting formation So you have to be wider than you are deep or equal to be in fighting formation and claim a rank bonus Or if you go longer Then you go in a marching column Which means it's like you can't charge and stuff like that But yeah, you can triple your movement though as as your march instead of doubling it, which is which is a cool thing to do And we'll certainly pair well with Units that are drilled and can take Free, you know free changes and be able to move stuff around a little more easily. Yep Yep. Yeah, signature smacks is there, right? No deeper than the frontage Yes, if you go wider then you can go deeper, right? So it's kind of like the unit's going to expand out like that Like pulling the corner of a picture Yeah, you can't just pull the little side bars. You got to pull the corners to make the thing bigger okay, uh and you know that combined with like the Like certain units Obviously, they have different unit strengths and different numbers to be to to claim that rank bonus like you mentioned earlier Brandon monstrous infantry only need to be three across What is it? Heavy infantry need to be four across four across. Yeah. Yeah Stuff like chariots is three across those kinds of things. So yeah, okay cool Uh rock and roll and then finally you will roll to generate the spells pre game, but you can swap one over You do have to say your Spell like technically you have to say your spell Uh lore When you're list building, but then you don't know what spells you actually have Until you roll a number of dice equal to your wizard level You don't get to just automatically choose off of doubles anymore that kind of thing You have to but there's a lot more Because you have the lore specific there's the a lot more signatures per se that you can swap it to But you can still only swap a max of one Right, but like you have more options because you can do like i'm a high off I can swap to the the high made or not high Lore's aphor a because me a slightly separate option to kind of offset that doubles don't let you pick Yep, yep KR says serious questions since most of us used movement trays in warhammer fantasy battles How irritating is switching formations going to be? Um, I mean if you're locking in a plastic movement tray like what gw is selling that kind of bad product Then annoying if you're using like what mini mag trays made where they actually are like can sort of be attached in different ways And just like magnet together in a really nice way Not that annoying it'll be actually pretty easy to just be like plop plop I mean can it reconnect them plus so also like I I thought about this like formations I would take Very rarely am I going to be like so far deep on that that i'm not just Basically turning a unit from this way to this way. Yeah, and if I have to do that to switch to marching I'll just put the command squad up front and everything else to leave sideways and march it and then just adjust as I need to Say like you can do it quickly without much hassle Yeah, but yeah, like there's there's tools out there that's gonna be easier. It's not super annoying Yeah, I didn't find myself like radically changing formation very often, but I mean, I don't know. Maybe I will in the future Yeah, the the biggest pain is going to be going from skirmish to open order to skirmish Right, um, if if such a situation were to ever come up In in your game typically you're going to go from skirmish to open order and chances are that's where you're going to stay Yeah, chances are you're going to go from skirmish to open order to the dead pile off the battlefield That's usually you're you're going to reform off the table um Somebody asked what the size of the table was. Um, it's 60 by 44 So it is using the new updated size. It's not a six by four table. It is a 60 by 44 um, so it's the current AOS slash 40k size Okay, another question that is not indexed in the in the box. That was very hard to find It's a beginning. Yeah, Brent and I were setting up. We were like, wait, how big is the table supposed to be? Yeah, my brain defaulted to Six by four. So I I didn't even like even content Creators I've seen out there have not even saw what you guys apparently found. So that's really interesting Yeah, it's in there. It is in there. I I will I will I can endeavor to find it again Now God knows where it is, but it is in here. I read it I know it. Um, but yeah, like, um It is uh It's using that newer size. So that's fine Okay, cool. All right, uh very good Uh God only knows where this rule is Like you think it'd be right here in the beginning, wouldn't you? Right? That's that's where you would have spent it somewhere Yeah, hey an article like hey, we're using this this table size now Uh, I think they kept this on the download because they didn't want to they didn't want to scare like, uh Old hammer players away who'd be like I refuse I refuse to change my table size. I mean the launcher watch the argument was like bigger our base sizes meant bigger table size, but Up to 1000 points is 30 by 44 1001 to 3000 points is 44 by 60 And 3001 points and above is 44 by 90 What page is that on vince page 285, sir? and what what's the points between The the the small size 1001 to 3000 is on the 44 by 60 Okay, all right. I was making sure it wasn't like 1999 And I was on the we're playing a huge game on a really tiny table. Okay. We're good Yep The average game though notably is between 2000 and 3000 points. So I think that settles the 1999 debate Oh, sure fair. Yeah. All right 2400 it is right 25 Almost like the east coast map if you want we're doing 2400 There's there's another thing that says the you can also play on a 48 by 72 But if you don't want that then refer to this one below So you can use your four by six as well. So it allows for both So, okay, okay So there you go. I guess I guess the answer is both So there you go Ask your to-yo moving on So, okay, cool There you go. Uh, cool. Cool. Um Right on Uh, so pregame done. Let's start. Let's get into the phases. Let's talk strategy phase Uh, all right By the way, if you haven't hit like yet hit like Uh, just we're we're like two hours into this chugging along. Uh, maybe maybe hit that like button Thank you very much for sticking with us everybody. I hope you all find this exciting All right, let's talk strategy phase. This is the new phase kind of at the beginning And it is a cool phase. Um, this contains basically four sub phases start a turn command Conjuration rally fleeing troops Okay Um start a turn is where you just kind of do all start of turn cleanup things lots of armies will have Different start of turn things that they do Command is a new thing. We'll talk about that in just a second But most leaders now have command abilities kind of a la aos, but they don't use like command points or anything Conjuration is using the first time you use magic in the turn Um, so this is uh where you cast enchantment and hex spells And then rally fleeing troops. Um, this is where you try to rally anybody who's running away pretty classic thing here Um, so as I said new command abilities Um, there are no command points It's just if your army has units that have it and those characters meet the conditions for usage They can each use them once per turn. This is the thing brendan and I screwed up I thought you were only allowed to use one per turn So both of us just used one per turn and it was fine. We were totally balanced But but you know, we just made a choice and went about our sweet way And uh, no you all get to do your thing once each hero gets to do one of their command abilities in that phase So you can also cast hexes and diva or hexes and enchantments Most of which can't be cast into combat Nor can they be cast if you Are in combat so there's two separate things Um, but some can it really depends that say it's like 50 50 on enchantments and hexes some can some can't they will say Uh, and then magic Very simple. No more mini game Magic is just each wizard can attempt to cast all of their spells once per turn That's it So if you're a level four wizard and you have four spells you can cast four spells You will often not have valid targets for all four of your spells Especially as the game progresses But you can do it like it is within your potential To cast a spell you simply roll 2d6 and add your level If you hit the number you cast the spell That's it No dice pools no dice game Wizards have unlimited dispel attempts As far as we can tell as far as we can tell But have a limited range at which they do so and importantly they can't dispel if they're engaged in combat Um, so level one and two wizards dispel 18 inches away level three and four wizards dispel at 24 inches away And no matter what once per turn you can choose to use a faded dispel which is just straight up 2d6 roll But you don't get any bonus to it So if you're going up against the level four wizard could be a tough tough dispel Miscast can happen when casting or Dispelling like if you roll snake eyes You're going over to the miscast table, baby Uh, so that's fun. And like the old thing that happened was in our game real quick was was brendon You didn't you rolled one miscast on a dispel, right? That was the only time Yeah, I think I think with my wizard that was out on the out on the edge and it was just like That was the one that ended up charging the chariot and that wound ended up costing me big time Yes, my chariot crew killed his wizard because I got I snuck one wound through on him My my sorry my war machine crew. Yeah the catapult. Yeah the catapult Actually had one wound left and we were like got him I have to say as someone who was a big fan of the 8th edition magic for the the the sins of it aside I enjoyed that mini game because I like the interaction between your opponent and yourself um The miscast for dispelling offsets all the all the feelings of oh, I miss my Mini game because the mini game is there in a different way because now your opponent has to sit there go Oh Do I risk it or not and that's going to make for fun moments just as many times as we've had I'm throwing six dice and blowing myself up. Let's see if it goes off Yep, yep, uh, let me tell you what uh, I'm here for it every time. Let's go. Let's go. I play scaven I'm here for I'm here for outlier chances of small catastrophic things happening. That's that's basically my play style um Okay, and then also lastly this is where you roll for ambushers, but they don't come on until later So that's that's just an important thing to know to you roll to check your ambushers here in this strategy phase All right, overall brendan, what'd you think of the uh strategy phase? I really liked it the specifically the the command sub step It'd be really cool for all of our heroes to have done all the things that they could have done But the the thing that was Coolest with that was it was a way of making your heroes feel more hero-y um that Your army has a a set of you know, effectively commands that you can do that are very Tomb King oriented. Yep mine are you know, effectively things that are very beastman oriented that You know change and manipulate the game and in a really cool way and one of the things that you know I kind of have my eye towards is is that space and what they plan on doing with that because Well, I don't want to see it necessarily go the direction of Heroic actions in age of sigma where you're paralyzed by choice, right? That is a space where you can do Unusual things You know you can introduce a new character who has access to a different kind of command that shifts the way Maybe you want to construct your army or the way that you Maybe build a a chunk of it to do a specific task with the inner list and and I think that's That's really cool. That's the most exciting bit of it and it's a It's kind of like a neat like little bookkeeping phase where you kind of set yourself in order before just a bunch of stuff happens Yeah, yep. Yeah, I like a lot of the commands like I'm legitimately excited about my tomb game commands Like there's some other people obviously who I didn't who I didn't get to use other heroes and stuff That have some neat ones. Um, like I love the necrotech command. That was cool. I got to use that like one turn Again, because I thought we were only using one. So that's fine. I really love the tomb prince and tomb king one by the way, there is a command range And the way command range works is heroes broadcast a command range a number of inches equal to their leadership Unless they're the general In which case it's or the general or the bsp the army bsp in which case it's 12 inches and unless they're on a behemoth In which case it's 18 inches So there you go Um, so, you know, I mean like in general it's you know, you've got some bubbles that are going on But all your heroes have some kind of command range that they that they can pass out their their kind of presence on the battlefield for And yeah, I'm it it's cool. I like it a lot.  He came back around so you know, he was all right um I mean technically he was still alive at the end of the game. So, you know, he he he's fine. He lives to fight another day. All right So that's kind of strategy. It's it's Depending on what you're going on with it's generally pretty quick. Um, I do like this magic system a lot I will say it's probably the second best one They could create obviously the best would be if we went back to fifth edition cards just for the raw goofiness of it Uh, but but other than that, we're definitely whole set right up there vince. You want to come play? Yes, yes, oh man Okay, uh movement phase All right, let's talk movement All right So movement phase this is obviously again, you've got kind of four sub steps You've got declare charges. You charge moves your compulsory moves and then your remaining moves now There's a couple important things to note here about this phase. So obviously the first thing you do is declare charges Um, and specifically the active player, which is the person who's turn is being taken Goes through and declares all their charges And which unit is being charged like this unit is charging here This unit is charging here this unit is charging here If there's no way you can avoid charging multiple units You do have to charge multiple units and so on and account for that Um, and then once you've declared All your charges from all your people who can legally charge i.e. like they didn't flee They're not in marching column. You know other things that would stop them from charging Then the opposing player says their charge reactions Right and so which is hold stand and shoot or flee And then like in response to that if you flee there's redirects and all that kind of stuff is still there You can only redirect once If on that and so on and so forth But and then the other important thing to understand is this is also the phase where conveyance spells happen This is kind of the easiest one to remember. I think because conveyance Movement they you get it right like you get it It's very direct to this one, but importantly those get cast in the remaining moves Uh sub phase so after charges So if you and like we'll talk about how you charge in a moment because there's some spells you might read and it's like Oh, this gives the unit fly 10 and you're like, oh, that'd be awesome I can put it on the unit and then charge and it's like no, no, no, right Your unit has already we've gone past that point already, right? That's that has already that train has left the station by the time you're putting on there So things like that are actually pretty innately balanced because they end up being just for like maneuverability and stuff like that Or setting up later turns as opposed to Suddenly making a unit explode 30 inches across the table on a charge. So Okay Things here I said the all charges are declared by active player yada yada How does charging work? I'm uh charging works like this. It is your move Plus the highest 1d6 of a 2d6 roll So in other words, let's say you charge let's say your base move is five inches That means the maximum you can charge your charge range is 11 inches because you just it's six plus your move The highest roll you can get on a d6 That's the farthest out you can declare against a unit And you're going to roll two dice and you're going to select the highest dice And put that together with your move. That's how far you charge Now if you're going over difficult terrain you take the lowest dice And you put those two together If you have swift stride you get to do the highest dice and add an additional d6 All right and so on and so forth. So like there's other rules I'm just listing a couple. There's other rules that can modify this But that's basically what it is Uh Chuck what do you think about charging? I I legitimately really like this new charging I I like it because I will always think back to the one game where I played against dwarves and my dragon prince bus unit Failed an 18 inch charge And then the dwarves successfully made a 13 inch charge after I stumble forward and I'm like, how can they move faster than me? Sure, it makes it feel like Calvary are fast and infantry are slow Um, I am curious how this is going to play in like the posturing at the start of games Because like you remember you'd have those games where you're just kind of like slowly moving up and feeling each other out Obviously, I want to go much quicker because we're going to be farther away and our charges isn't As long potentially So I like it. I think it's going to get us into the combat situation quicker Or at least within range of these shorter spells these shorter, you know bow shots and all that so I am a fan of this new charge Yeah, that's right. That's right Um, yeah, charter sauce. You're correct. You are correct. It's not a requirement. They said either table works um, okay, so Yeah, brendon thoughts on charging the this feels like the nice middle ground between Exactly what chuck is talking about, you know, his his bad experience between, you know, cab versus dwarves and What seventh edition was which was your charge was just double your movements and there were situations that you could get into where You could just never charge your opponent, you know There was there was no situation that you could move into Where your opponent wasn't going to just kind of idiot their way into like, oh my god I'm in charge range now You also couldn't pre-measure in that version of the game, which, you know, was a was a different thing um This is that nice middle ground where the things that are fast feel like they have an advantage and the things that are slow You know have some kind of disadvantage, but it's somewhere in the middle where A lot of things still have a chance and you can position yourself in a place where Yeah, mine is an average charge and yours is an above average charge, but you can still fail And that is still going to put me in a place to to do okay And right, you know, you try to make the long charge with your knights You move forward and suddenly i'm in range like okay now. I have a choice to make in my next turn so um I really like the decision made here It feel it's the middle ground that feels good for the gameplay and then also for the people at the table Agreed agreed And rory that would mean you have a very very wide frontage Because at least half of the more than more than half at least half I remember of your of the fighting rank of your unit has to be made up of rank and file models So if you're trying to pack a unit with that many heroes, you have a huge frontage on that that unit Okay So You can't end your move within one inch of an enemy ever But unless you're charging obviously, but you know normal moves Um, however, you can move within one inch during your movement Hallelujah, that sounds like such a small thing, but it matters so much because units don't have these like Force fields around them, right?  I hated that so much. So dumb. I know Yep, now it's one inch of an enemy. It's great. Okay Um, if the charge fails you move the high roll on the 2d6 forward, which potentially puts you in a bad position So in other words, if you roll the charge and it fails, whatever the higher die was you move that many inches forward. So like That's it's pretty much that like you let's say they were 10 inches away You you're a move move five unit. You roll your 2d6. You get a four and a one. Whoops. It's only nine inches It's not enough.  I like that a lot rather than just sitting there Because I do I love that that's then like potentially got you out of position. You might know where you want to be So there's a risk. It's great Um, there's no swift reform It does not exist, which is great It's hard to maneuver your units or drastically change facing an act. So you need to think well ahead like Uh, it's like It's I really love that you get one thing. It's your one thing you can do It's like, you know pivot wheel reform, etc. And it's just like that's your one thing Um, and yes, as I said earlier, this is where you cast your conveyance, which are generally your movement in teleports bells Overall, I really like the new movement rules. I think they did a great job with with it. So also even just I can pivot with something that's next to the board edge and yeah off the board edge for a second Yeah, thank you. Like it was uh I don't just die because my corner clipped the edge of the board and my yeah They don't pretend like the edge of the board is like the edge of the known universe You just see see yeah, you can like pivot around that then your unit can like sweep off