We've all heard about the Great Pyramid, the one in Giza, that's the tallest pyramid on Earth, right? You may be surprised to discover that the Great Pyramid found in Giza is not the tallest one on Earth. In fact, it's not even close. Wait till you hear this. In China, there are large pyramids that are not only lined with the stars and showing advanced mathematics and layout design and construction, they are also among the largest in the world. In fact, the true Great Pyramid, the largest that we know of, is twice the size of the Great Pyramid at Giza and is hidden in plain sight. But why are the Chinese trying to hide the biggest and most significant archaeological find of the ancient world? Despite speculation about the existence of the Great Pyramids in China, archaeologists have refused to consider even rumors about such structures, but recent aerial pictures prove that China's pyramids are indeed real, rivaling those of Egypt and Central America for their age, size, and significance. The Chinese pyramids drew popular attention just after World War II. Many early stories were focused on the existence of the Great White Pyramid. This is the tomb of Emperor Wu of Han, located in the Shangxi province. US Army Air Corps pilot James Gosman is said to have seen a white jewel-top pyramid during a flight between India and China during World War II. James Gosman told of his eyewitness encounter with the Chinese pyramid in the March 28, 1947 edition of The New York Times. A photo of a pyramid in China appeared in the New York Sunday News March 30, 1947, raising a few eyebrows across the globe. Pseudo-Historians have increased Western awareness of these pyramids. Artway Cosdorff speculated that it was built by aliens, and Philip Copens repeated this theory. The existence of these pyramids in China remained completely unknown in the Western world until the 1910s. They were documented in large numbers around Xi'an, first in 1912 by the Western traders Fred Meyerschroder and Oscar Maaman, also in 1913 by the expedition of Victor Segolin. It's located about 40 miles southwest of Xi'an, the largest of 16 pyramids located in this area designated as a no-go area, a forbidden zone by communist authorities. These restrictions make it extremely difficult and dangerous for Westerners to visit the pyramid and take photographs of it. Despite the restrictions, and with the help of the people of China, photos are emerging. It's unknown when exactly the Great Pyramid of China was built, according to some Chinese archaeologists the pyramid was built about 3,000 years before the birth of Christ. Ancient records preserved in an old monastery near the Mongolian border describe the Xi'an pyramid. The structure was said to measure 1,000 feet in height, which made it the highest pyramid in the world. The Great Pyramid of Egypt is 450 feet in height, so the Great China Pyramid is more than double the height. Imagine that for a second, two Giza pyramids on top of each other, and then some. Doesn't that blow your mind? According to the monastic documents, the pyramid was already extremely old when the records were made, so we're talking about some of the oldest structures on earth here. In the valleys around the Xi'an pyramid, there are dozens of other pyramids, almost as tall as the Great Xi'an Pyramid. These smaller ones are also larger than any of the other pyramids found scattered across the globe. When Hartwig Hausdorff and his friend Guider Krasler reached the township of Sengyang about 40 miles west of Xi'an, they saw at least 15 pyramids in the area. The two researchers were surprised to see small trees planted at the sides of these pyramids. I've been told that over the past four or five years, the Chinese have been planting fast-growing conifers, a kind of cypress tree on the slopes of these pyramids. I wondered briefly what they were trying to hide by making these ancient wonders blend so completely into the surroundings. The construction of these smaller Chinese pyramids is similar to that of the pyramids of New Mexico City. The tops of most of these Chinese structures are flattened off, similar to the rectangle of the structure of the Mayan's Hausdorff set. The estimated age of these pyramids is 6,000 years, and it's believed that they've been arranged to align with certain constellations in the night sky. Just as certain key pyramids in Egypt were constructed, an imitation of the constellation Orion. The Chinese pyramids near Xi'an are proof of the immense knowledge of geometry and mathematics by the builders five millennia ago. Who were they, and where did they go? In 1994, archaeologists discovered several pyramids near the Wei River north of Xi'an. It is thought that there may be as many as 100 pyramids in China, including the Great White Pyramid, which is the highest of them all. They're all unheard of in the western world, so spread the word, guys. Who were the mysterious Chinese pyramid builders? Were they members of an ancient Atlantean civilization, or were they perhaps giants of the past, or maybe even alien visitors or inhabitants from the stars? Maybe they positioned the pyramids under their home stars. Several villagers claimed a distant ancestor spoke of sky ships that navigated the heavens and used the pyramids. Whatever the purpose was for these pyramids, they were built with such precision that our current technology cannot replicate it. Pretty amazing, right? What do you guys think of the giant pyramids in China? Why are the Chinese trying to keep them secret? Comments below. Thanks for watching, and remember, the ways at which we arrive at knowledge are hardly less wonderful than the discovery of these things themselves.


Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering Dell Technologies World 2019. Brought to you by Dell Technologies and its ecosystem partners. Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's live coverage of Dell World Technologies here in Las Vegas. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my co-host, Stu Miniman. We have two guests for this segment. We have Anare La Bordette. She is the VP Global Market Development Telco Business Group. Welcome, V.M. Ware, thank you, sorry. Thank you, yes. Welcome, and we have Kevin Schatzkamer, Senior VP Networking and Solutions Dell EMC. Thank you both so much for coming on the show. Our pleasure. Thank you. So Kevin, I want to start with you. There was a big announcement this morning, signing with Orange of France. Tell our viewers a little bit more about this. Yeah, sure, so I think as overall Dell Technologies continues to focus on helping our service providers through what is a very complex transition, both in their business, in their operations, in their technology investments, in the operational skillset gaps, in the business models, the architectures use cases kind of cross the board of how their businesses are evolving. What we continue to do is focus on a core set of telecommunication service providers that we can partner with very deeply to help in that transformation and use the knowledge gained through that collaboration as a means to expand the Dell Technologies capabilities globally. So I think that the belief is that when we help solve problems, that not only benefits the service provider we're working with, it benefits the industry as a whole with the lessons learned so that we can then contribute back. And so far there's been some enthusiasm about this. There certainly has, I think. It's been a big day for us. Obviously the first two days at Dell Technologies World were extremely focused on new product introductions across the Dell portfolio. And today with the opportunity to expand the messaging and announce some of the great things we're doing with partners, we're doing with our customers and we're doing within the ecosystem, I think we continue to drive a very positive message. Honorary, the networking component is something that we know service providers have a need and it's ever changing. We've watched that expand greatly in the VMware portfolio over the years. I've done plenty of interviews with telcos talking about things like NFE, network functions, virtualization. But the big thing everybody's been talking about the last couple of years it feels like is 5G. So I think we'd start there but talk a little bit about what you're hearing from service fighters and how VMware and VMware plus Dell are helping to meet some of those requirements. Sure, we'll needless to say 5G is a topic of every conversation we have with our telecommunication customers. And I think that there's a number of areas around 5G that are most prevalent in those conversations. One is really how does this service provider get a return on investment for the huge amounts of monies that they're investing in this infrastructure, right? So 5G is a new infrastructure, a new technology that's going to require a refresh of the entire infrastructure. And so while they're making all of those investments and they are doing so very aggressively to have a first mover advantage in terms of the first to deliver on a 5G technology, they want to work with vendors who can in fact accelerate their time to a return on investment for that infrastructure. So many of our conversations are really focused around how can we help these service providers actually accomplish that, right? Not just build out or take advantage of a software-defined infrastructure and all of the technologies that both Dell and VMware offer to them under the umbrella of the Dell technology companies, but also how can we help them accelerate services that they want to put on top of the 5G technology? I think one of the key differentiators of 5G over its predecessors is that the industry has recognized that it's going to require partnerships in order for the service providers to really get the return on investment. And that's where the partnership with VMware and with Dell and the work that Kevin and I are doing together to focus on service providers is really anchored, right? It's bringing together those partnerships so that these telecommunication customers can take advantage of our technology and do it very quickly. So there's a real acknowledgement of the need for partnerships. So then how do you show customers that the VMware Dell partnership is the right direction? Well, needless to say, you know, it's anchored in our technology. Kevin and I have been working together for a number of years now and our partnership really started out focusing on just making sure that the components of the stack worked as promised, right? That we could deliver a high degree of confidence to our customers that when they software-defined the infrastructure on Dell technology hardware and then lay it on top of that, their virtual network functions, that it would perform or outperform their legacy bare metal vertical stack equipment. Over time, however, our partnership has progressed to where we're actually collaborating to bring new technology to market together. And one example of that is the city of Las Vegas. We recently announced a smart city IoT use case and that technology, that solution was co-developed with NTT, Dell EMC and VMware using VMware software, Dell hardware, as well as Dell storage, Dell data analytics and intelligence and NTT's infrastructure and points of presence. Yeah, I think there's both a technical reality and an operational reality to the technologies that we speak of, right? The technical reality is that the transformation that the telcos are going through around NFV in the direction toward network edge, edge computing, cloud environments is really just software-defined data center similar to what we've done the IT side for a long time. So the technologies that the telecommunications industry is adopting are the technologies that both Dell EMC and VMware have been working on for a very long time. The operational reality is that just taking what you've done in IT and applying it into a telco network is not sufficient. Understanding of the workloads, how those workloads lay on top of infrastructure, understanding that those workloads are in a transformation of their own and that virtual network functions were not designed to natively consume compute, they were designed for network appliances and that there are still requirements that they drive down to the infrastructure was I think where both Honore and I have been investing for the last several years, right? How do we complement the broad capabilities of both Dell EMC and VMware in IT virtualization and software-defined data center and bring in telco service provider, networking, expertise and domain knowledge that we can use to be able to really ramp up and accelerate the partnerships we have in the service provider industry? That's great stuff. We actually, we got to do an interview on the Smarter Cities earlier this week and fascinating discussion to see how there's, Kevin, I like what you laid out there. You know, when I look at the space, you know, scale gets talked about a lot, but you know, you talk to telcos, they have a little bit of a different scale and the management for these kind of environments is also quite a bit different than if you were talking the enterprise. Those some of the key items, where would you say you're? I also think that even further, that the challenges of scale that have been solved in the public cloud are a different set of challenges than the telco industry is really trying to wrestle with, right? In the public cloud, we're talking about a very small number of facilities and we can build a homogeneous architects or within there. We define a standard server, we replicate that server across a rack, replicate that rack across rows, replicate those rows across a data center. The reality is, is we get further and further towards the edge of the telco network, it looks more heterogeneous, right? I need GPUs for particular instances, I have cloud native applications, I have virtualized applications that sit inside of VMs, I have native Linux environments, I need to handle dense networking topologies, I have east-west traffic, north-south traffic that I need to take into account and I think that what we figured out and what we've learned in automating and orchestrating the public cloud is how to handle hundreds of thousands of things at single digit number of locations and what we're talking about here is hundreds of thousands of locations with single digit number of things. And that's another key area of the collaboration between the two groups in terms of how we deliver value to our telco customers, so rather than us working in silos and delivering yet another disparate technology for managing the edge cloud or all of these different locations, we're working together so that we can bring a cohesive technology to market for them. That's right, I think the infrastructure demands an openness and a willingness to be a productive member of a complex and consistently changing ecosystem and I think that obviously Dell EMC does that in our way, VMware does it in their way, but there's clear recognition that the better capabilities are when we work together to really drive the platform and bring the true capabilities of the broader Dell technologies together. So Telecoms is a hugely competitive industry and as you've talked about, there's a lot of challenges and it's a real transformative moment for this sector. Can you lay out some of sort of what you're thinking about for after 5G, which as you said is a hugely expensive investment for these companies, but sort of post 5G, what are we looking at? What's on their minds of your customers? So I don't know that there's going to be a distinct post 5G event, right? I think that 5G in and of itself is going to take some time to roll out and proliferate to the extent that its predecessors is now deployed across all locations all over the world. I do think that 5G, in addition to the infrastructure technology or the refresh of that technology, a lot of what is going to happen around 5G is in fact the applications and the use cases that's going to take advantage of 5G. If we think about what 5G is capable of enabling, it doesn't just address consumer applications, 5G also will address enterprise applications and that opens up a whole world of innovation and again applications, partnerships and vendors coming together who can really help the service providers put those pieces together and deliver on those applications. There's already talk about 6G, although it's very limited. So it's easy for me to say what's coming next after 5G will be 6G, but I think that there's still a lot of activity and a lot of innovation that will happen around 5G for some time to come. Yeah, we know the standards in the consortium so I always have to be working. I was looking at Terabit Ethernet on the network side. So I wanted to help kind of bring this conversation together if you have maybe a customer example. Love it if you could share who it is, but if not, give us a little bit of anonymity around what it is to help highlight this partnership. Sure, I think owner A shared the city of Las Vegas as a great example of where we're enabling a smart cities use case. We can speak to Metel in terms of the capabilities of Dell Technologies to be able to help transform their NFV offerings and really help them bring NFV to market at scale. We can speak to at least one tier one service provider in Amia that is delivering a full stack offering in which we extended the capabilities of our Ericsson partnership that both Dell EMC as well as VMware have to build a complete stack offering of Ericsson VMware as well as Dell EMC. Yeah, since it's Ericsson, there's some of the edge computing in there. I've talked to them quite a bit about what they're doing on their edge offering. Yes, I think that we have a number of examples that we also can't share as publicly, but we continue to collaborate. I think we're driving fantastic innovation. The industry is responding extremely favorably across the board and I think that the strategy that we have jointly to not just develop technology but really change the way we engage with telecommunications organizations and service providers to work with them well before they're ready to deploy technology and also help them scale their own operations and understand this transformation is really key to the success here because just having the best technology at this inflection point in the industry is not enough. We really have to partner to help them understand how to operationalize and monetize that infrastructure. And we do have a number of innovation projects with regards to the edge and far edge with some of the top tier service providers in particular in the Americas where we're working together for edge solutions. I got to hear what this far edge is in a future conversation. Because I thought I was getting my arms around edge. I know it was edge and now it's edge and far edge. That's what Dell Technologies World 2020. That's right. Honorary Kevin, thank you both so much for coming on theCUBE. My pleasure. Thank you. We're watching theCUBE's live coverage of Dell Technologies World. There's more to come after this.


You must be delighted to have stolen that one light, what did you make of the match overall? A very physical match, we knew it would be tough, they've obviously got off to a very good start, a certain way of playing, very hard to break down, very committed team, so we knew the first probably half-sixty minutes was going to be like that and it was, they didn't let us down, but I told the boys it's important we play our way, I want to try and implement a way of playing, even though it's all hustle and bustle at times but we've got to be good enough to play, we've got to find ways, solutions to the problems that they cause you and I think we did, especially in the second half as that wore on, thought we wore them down and then we get a little bit of luck with the goal. You can play all the best football in the world if you want and you get a deflection and a ricochet and then you get a goal from 8 or 10 yards and sometimes you earn your own luck in football. What was your view from the dugout of Matt Simon's contribution across 60 minutes? Matt Simon in terms of just he was extremely aggressive and physical and perhaps lucky to have been at the park for as long as he was. Matt plays Matt's way, I don't think it surprised me or surprised the boys. I think we had a young back three today and I thought it was not a surprise to Ziggy but obviously a surprise possibly to Tass and Young-Natter, but I thought they handled it very well, it's all action, he's very physical but he's clever as well. The way he plays, he holds the ball up well, he manipulates the ball, he wins free kicks, he wins flick-ons, it's not an easy player to play against but I made him aware of what he was going to do this week and we just tried to cover because the likelihood is he's going to win every aerial challenge and that proved right as well but it's important if you don't win first contact, you win second contact or even third contact so he didn't surprise me the way he played and obviously he played well for that. Ziggy was obviously targeted quite a bit by not just the players but the fans also are you happy with the way he responded and handled the situation? When players move or coach, I don't think players are targeted, I actually think Ziggy probably was mates with a lot of these boys while he was here and sometimes when you play against your mate, you want to kick your mate. I've done it many, many times before and then you have a beer with them afterwards or coffee and you go for a chat and that's the way it works. So I don't think they're targeted, obviously the fans have got their own views and opinions but as I said weeks and weeks ago you've got to understand the circumstances and situations so I think it made the emotion in the game interesting but I said to Ziggy just cut out all the emotion and just play the game you've got to play what's in front of you because you can get caught up in an emotional occasion then you go away doing what you're paid to do which is to play football which is very, very calm and kept a level head in obviously a very difficult place. What did you make of Mark Natter on debut obviously? He had some physicality there with Matt Simon as well, how did you think he handled it? Great, I thought he was excellent, obviously it was a big loss, we've lost our captain so someone needed to step up, I could have played Phil Kanker who I bought in who's trained very well, another young player we've got who's injured as well and Patrick's not fit yet although he's probably returning in the next couple of days so I had no hesitation throwing him in as I've done with Thomas Aquilina this year I thought he rose to the occasion, it was a great battle and you're not sometimes going to get as many harder players as Matt Simon are in this league and it's a different type of player but I thought he handled himself very, very well it's probably a very, very mature performance by someone so young. Did you have to kind of clean up that this week and kind of word him up and let him know, prepare him for what he was going to face out there? I didn't and there's so many ways you can read all this literature books and stuff like that about the best way to approach a young player when you throw him in is arguments to give him good notice, there's arguments to give him late notice and no notice and that lot and after the game on the weekend which I thought we played very well against obviously Sydney and I found out about Dylan, I told him yesterday that he was going to play I said I got full confidence in you, believing yourself which he did he's a very level head kid, he's got all the attributes you want he's left footed which is not too common for central defenders and the way we play he brought a lovely little balance to it but he deserves all the plaudits today, I thought he was exceptional On that you must be pretty happy with your young players so far this season they've really responded well Young players, sometimes I get sick and tired of people saying young players don't get given chances and things like that the young players when they are ready and good enough and they have a coach who believes in them will get given the chances, the young players then have to take them chances it's not just throwing them in and expect them to be able to swim you have to teach them, coaching is teaching, it's learning it's dealing with the scenarios, understanding the backgrounds understanding players individually and then trying to give them the best support platform as you can to make them succeed because professional sports is very very hard sometimes it's quite horrible so you have to try and build their makeup as well as teaching tactically technically as well as the physical element as well they've all been exceptional, I thought Keanu Bakas again was exceptional I think he started the season immensely and my challenge to him is continue doing what you're doing because I think he's getting better and better each game that plays you know when you like that and you've got those traits as a midfielder player it's not easy to play against but I thought he was exceptional again can you talk a little bit? I'm sorry, I'm into Europe I'm sorry Ben, can you just talk us through what's happened with Dylan McGowan and how long do you expect him to be out for? yeah do you know what I don't know is the honest answer Vince as soon as I know again I'm pretty open as you know I'll let you know but after the game on Saturday he had a boot on and whenever I see a boot you know I'll say it's two weeks because it's not a good sign he's been scanned and obviously it's showed an initial little I think tier or a small gap so it's going to be minimum of two weeks it could be four or six I don't know is the exact answer but you're not going to see him for the next two weeks for sure and so you've got a pretty long layoff now until your next game how do you handle these next few weeks? well I get two days off I haven't told him yet I think Kenny's going to tell him and be the good guy by telling him he's managed to persuade me to give him two days off so he'll do that and then we'll get back to work on Friday it's three points on the board it's a good performance which I was pleased with because the way we played as well is what we're trying to integrate here but we just get back to work it's three points we move on oh yeah sorry the subs had a big impact what were you saying to them when they came on? yeah when when subs come on you expect them to make the impact you know and sometimes the subs are disappointed that they don't start and that's fine to be disappointed but you know you make decisions as coaches and managers for the benefit of the team you know I shuffled the pack because I wanted a little bit of energy early on in the game and I also thought that as the game wore on having the ability to bring Kwame on bring Bruce on who's obviously that was his first minutes of the season and bring Nicolai as well Nicolai has got wonderful ability he sees passes, he roams as well as Georgie and Georgie that I had on the bench as well as Philip so it was just a case of at the moment I thought we were in control of the game without actually hurting them in areas where I think they were vulnerable and I made those adjustments and obviously it worked through a deflection so it's a good finish by Nicolai you've got to be in those areas to score the goals and I keep stressing to my forward players and tens to be in those areas if you don't shoot you don't score and obviously we've got a little bit of a deflection but I think that's what we deserved


Hello and welcome to the session. Let us understand the following problem today. In an AP given A12 is equal to 37, D is equal to 3, find A and S12. Now let us write the solution. We know that A n is equal to A plus n minus 1 D, so which is calculated as A12 is equal to A plus 12 minus 1 multiplied by 3. A12 is given to us 37, so 37 is equal to A plus 11 into 3. Now here there is one unknown that is A. So A which implies A is equal to 37 minus 33 which implies A is equal to 4. Now using this value of A let us find the sum that is S12 which is equal to n by 2 multiplied by 2A plus n minus 1 D which is equal to n by 2 multiplied by 4 plus 12 minus 1 D is 3 which is equal to this gets cancelled by 6, so 6 multiplied by 8 plus 11 into 3 which is equal to 6 multiplied by 8 plus 33 which is equal to 6 multiplied by 41 which is equal to 246 hence A is equal to 4 and S12 is equal to 246 our required answer. I hope you understood the question by and have a nice day.


This question comes from Satyendra, why does the transaction fee not show as a transaction output in the block explorer? Satyendra says, just block mastering Bitcoin, I had this question looking at a sample transaction in the block explorer. Is there a public address where the transaction fee is sent, and is that address hidden on purpose? That's a great question, Satyendra. It's something that is very confusing at first. You look in the block explorer, and it's supposedly showing you all of the information that's in the block. It seems that fees are not in there at all. The true reason for that is because fees are indeed not in there. A transaction does not include a specific output for fees. That is not part of a transaction. One of the reasons is that would require you to know where the miner wants the fees to go. You would have to put in your transaction an output that could be redeemed by a miner, but you don't know who is going to mine it yet, so that would be impossible. The second problem is that you would have an extra output in every transaction. If you have 4,000 transactions in a block, that's 4,000 outputs for fees. Yet the fees are all going to go to one miner. Why do we need 4,000 outputs? That's not how it works. The way it works is the fees are left over, meaning that you have inputs that bring in a certain value into a transaction, and then you have outputs that spend less than that. The difference, the bit that isn't spent by the outputs, but funded by the inputs, the overfund of inputs minus outputs, whatever is left over, is the fee. The way you make a fee in a Bitcoin transaction is by not spending it all in outputs, by funding the transaction with inputs and then spending less than the entire amount, and whatever is left over is the fee. It's implicit, it's not explicit. Okay, great, so it's not in the transaction. But where is it? Where is the public address that gets all the fees? Where is that payment? And here's the answer. It's in the Coinbase. It's in the Coinbase transaction of the block where the transaction is mined. So if you look at your little transaction in a block, and then you look at the Coinbase transaction of that block, right now the Coinbase reward is $12.5B, but if you look at the Coinbase transaction, which pays to a specific, it's usually a paid-to-public key hash. It might be a different type of script, but usually it's a paid-to-public key hash. So you can see which address the miner is paying to. They're not paying $12.5B, which is the reward in the Coinbase. If they're paying $12.513621, or $12.61253, where did that $0.1 come from? Where did that $0.123 come from? That's the fees. And what it is, it's the fees from all of the transactions that were included in that block added up. Do the math. Go and look at every transaction in a block, probably best to pick a block that's relatively empty, and you can find those in the early days of Bitcoin, same rules applied. You can find blocks that have two or three transactions, and within those blocks, look at the math. Or you could even run a little script if you want to. Try out your skills with the Bitcoin software and running scripts and interrogating the blockchain. So you can see for yourself, download a block, pull out all the transactions, add up the amounts of all the inputs, deduct the outputs from the inputs. You're left over with the fees, the fees for all of the transactions. If you look at the Coinbase, the amount above and beyond the reward that comes in each block, which is currently $12.5B or whatever it was at the time of the block that you look at, you'll see the Coinbase is more than that. That amount should correspond exactly to the excess input of all of the transactions, to the implicit fees. That's where the output is. That's where the public address, where the transaction fees are sent, is. It's in the Coinbase transaction. The reason it works like that is because the miner, when they mine the block, they construct the block, they put all the transactions in, they count up all of the fees, and then they construct a Coinbase transaction that gives them all of those fees plus the reward, and then they try to find proof to make that a valid block. So the miner writes the Coinbase transaction, they know where the fees should go, and they put that in there. There are no fee outputs in any of the individual transactions. There's one fee output for the block, and it's the combined amount of reward plus all of the fees from all of the transactions. I hope that answered your question, Sudinder. It's a little tricky thing, but it's very interesting how it's being designed and why it's being designed like that. I hope you enjoyed that answer.


from UK it's battling jet lag um his slide is about a huge topic condensed into say 30 40 minutes so if you don't get anything feel free to engage him afterwards it's going to be around so Adrian thank you hi John I feel like that came with a heavy disclaimer hopefully my presentation is better than John assumes it will be he just he just seen first time at jet lag they've been for the last couple of days so he's vexed the worst but yeah I'm Adrian McShane I work for Human Made I don't know if anybody's heard of Human Made but we're an agency we're not really based anywhere we're a distributed company we've got people based all over the world reasonably high concentration in the UK but we have also a number of core WordPress contributors work within the agency as well and the type of work we have is pretty varied but we do work for quite a lot of big publishers companies who produce a lot of content they're not publishers but we do enterprise WordPress essentially and we're also a partner with Automatics VIP platform if you don't know then they do hosting and development for again quite big enterprise clients and today we're talking not so much about WordPress in a way it's more about publishing as a whole and how that's applicable to WordPress and when you get to a certain scale of people like how WordPress tends to fit into that ecosystem and potentially where WordPress may continue to evolve in the future so big brands love WordPress these are probably all people that Human Made work with I guess it's actually still this slide for one of my colleagues let's start again and they all use all of these use WordPress I think they probably all VIP clients as well they use it as part of the solution some use it as their their complete publishing solution some some of them it provides a part of it it's probably a big part of their front-end delivery for digital and from what I know they're all quite happy with what WordPress does for them and just a few examples I'm sure some of you may know the New York Times use it they don't use it for their core offering they have a bespoke CMS that covers quite a lot of it but they use it for a lot of their subsites and sort of microsites of which there are many I think they have a I'm not sure if they're multi-site based actually but I know they've got many many sites that are all based off one WordPress offering and a project that I worked on relatively recently the Sun recently we launched on WordPress they came from an enterprise solution and ported over to WordPress relatively recently and they did quite a lot of work on workflow which we'll get into a little bit later this is Ted and just an example this slide I feel like this slide probably needs a disclaimer I've shown this to a few people so far and I've tried to explain it and they've all looked at me very blankly and it's the kind of thing that like an information architect would love but for everyone else it's kind of doesn't make a huge amount of sense but I'll try I'll try to explain it so on the first column so this is information was in a large publisher kind of going from right to left or left to right and what we're standing and CMS one typically represents print systems probably not WordPress something that's probably paid for and it encompasses a lot of enterprise great things you know publishers are quite mature companies you know they've been new publishing for 120 years they've got lots of people lots of workflow they deal with lots of different sort of people with different roles and they manage media in different ways etc and a lot of these print systems actually are pretty good at that you know the their enterprise solutions they cater for all these sort of types of integrations and they also handle this sort of sort of waterfall or sort of multidirectional flow of content and this example it's actually based on a on a on a CMS it'll not be an end that I worked with in recent times but this CMS it has like a non-channel which is kind of where content starts and it's saying that it might come from a wire or or journalists submissions or something that comes from from some source and it hasn't been determined where it's going to go next it just sits in a pool of collections and it's been organized kind of at that first part of what a publisher does and but it's ready to go probably to print next some people are web first it's not I don't know how I don't know what the percentage is but I would imagine still a fair percentage of larger publishers are still print first they're still print minded they talk about digital and they want to be digital need no digital's future but print is still makes them more money because you get better returns on advertising you know they've still although it's a degrading audience they still have large audiences typically and obviously different pair of country everybody's got different growth patterns etc but yeah for quite a few print is still really important and within print you also have it's probably this system is probably going to handle print it's going to go from here to a print system and to the printers and I've had the opportunity in the past to visit the the print operation and where they actually do all this work and it's it's very impressive you kind of think that's the past and you know we worry about you know websites typically within audience like this but print you can kind of see those years of maturity kind of sitting there it's a very tight ship and they can't make a mistake they can't lose money they have to stop the presses you know they lose untold amounts restarting etc you've got big belts to go around massive buildings that run about 40 miles an hour and they splice paper in without losing they only lose about this much paper on a run like it's all these things go on and for me it's it's it was hugely impressive and within these types of cms is they some some of them use I mean I can mention maybe adobe for example I know sometimes either offer the solution or become part of it and because within print uh the content and the layout and the presentations user kind of all go together within web we tend to be a little bit more basic we have more or less one output or one article page in one section page and we just throw content at it and it comes out the same way to the consumer within print actually sometimes the layouts can be much more advanced they want things to be all different sizes across it and they've got tools to allow them to do that and magazines obviously even more so because it's very much a visual exercise and it's kind of how it looks first and then content goes on top of that etc so all those tools tend to be there um and then you'll you'll flow potentially from the top or from print uh to web to tablet mobile publication x all these different channels kind of get snapped off from here uh some content only exists in web because uh it is content that uh you know for some publications their print voice is very different to their digital voice things that they'll put in the web sphere just will never make it to print because it's kind of throw away or it'll only be relevant for that hour and it's going to instantly be discarded that type of thing um and uh yeah you just get a different editorial voice sometimes these all these three go together you know in a responsive world but quite a lot of publishers still do uh big fairly big dedicated uh operations where they have teams of 20 or 30 people um in tablet and mobile even bigger for web even bigger again for print you know you're dealing with hundreds of people um across managing and pushing all this content through this flow um and the second volume is kind of where that content goes next typically as it moves a little bit closer to us a little bit closer to what we're doing within digital itself and it ranges anywhere from like copying pasting content from this system they don't want to either the integration isn't very good or or it's just easier for them to move content to the left so you'll have your your uh digital CMS sitting over here kind of open and they'll go into their print cms and they'll just copy stuff across and then they'll start changing it within it um and then you know you'll you'll deal with actual integrations which is Paul which might be an rss feed that uh this system opens up and then your your downstream system can pull stuff out and make it ready and available for them to then take it into a into like home pages or article pages whatever uh push which has become uh more common when they try to replace some of these legacy systems i don't know if any of you've heard of pub sub hubbub pretty sure it's pub sub hubbub uh which is a a google protocol that just is a way to uh subscribe to something that wants to push content it's like a way to have instant almost instant recognition of a piece of jason or or xml and being able to push that really quickly between these two systems without any lag or anything and in my experience there's quite a lot of legacy glue in there as well there's a lot of bespoke things that have been built over time that do parts of these other responsibilities but yeah it can be quite a big piece and it all has to be managed and you get you know uh big outheed compartments doing etc and then within the the cms uh column which we're getting a little bit closer to wordpress finally um you've got uh some used uh paid for offerings obviously i mentioned it will be previously um misinic uh method uh there's a number of uh licensed uh uh uh cms is um that do they i don't know if there's that many that are that from that common or feel the same as wordpress i think they tend to be more uh although wordpress has become a cms these very much are a cms and you just get a different tool set within them um and then open source obviously where where wordpress would come in um we're seeing well i'll get into that a little bit later uh and then bespoke solutions like this which might be uh kind of mingled and along with your paid and open source offerings or they might be things in their own right but some people say uh i don't know if you've heard of chorus uh that the verge use within their overall lsb nation all those guys and there's a number of other examples as well they spend a lot of time and effort creating something new they say oh you know these all these things all these tools are fine but they just don't are they're not fast enough or they don't do and everybody loves having a goal at creating another cms um and i think some use it almost as a uh a hiring vehicle as well you know if you invest time in your tooling and you're really kind of uh on the face of it passionate about creating the best experience for writers i think it does actually attract the people that you want to hire within that ecosystem um and it's kind of a secondary benefit of doing something like that but i definitely see that type of thing happening um and then our our last integration which is kind of how it gets from there to start starting to get to the actual person who's consuming that content and within that uh we might be transforming content we might be saying okay we've created something for web but it also needs to go to our mobile application and our mobile application can only read jason therefore we need to transform uh parts of what we've done into something else and it can go to those jason can go to a file system or to an api or something like that and and once it is transformed uh our application or or or microsite or something else can can read that content um poll which might be just rss for for consumers a lot of people have kind of abandoned css because not that many people use rss readers anymore um but for the last point for syndication you end up with like quite there's still quite a lot of bespoke uh rss etc that you'll never see um that's used to for publishers to interact with um other other publishers because they're syndicated in front and to a wider network or maybe for part of our marketing exercise whatever but there's kind of a technical reason to syndicate and and posh as well where you would just want to get that content as quickly as possible to a consumer and pushes kind of a technical mechanism to do that and then in the very last you've got like you know your cds and obviously amazon have an offering within that i would have to mention them here and uh and files it's become more common for uh and the clients that we work with actually and as well as into wordpress is fine you've got wordpress um but a lot of the bigger publishers or uh potency banks or or some or people who uh typically uh serve a lot of content they want to deliver to their customer as fast as they possibly can they want it to be secure and a lot of them have kind of abandoned web based web server based applications doing that it's like it's a bit slow it takes a second or two to render but if you put it if you flatten that and put it straight back into flat html and css and gs etc um and put it into uh maybe a cdn it supports like a file system and or s3 obviously is a well-known one um then there's nothing to render you don't have php rendering stuff you just have something it's ready to ship directly to a browser into a user um and more and more seem to be opting for that it's it feels a bit backwards because we were kind of creating static html etc 10 years ago it feels like it's all gone a little bit full circle and obviously the the web based solution will always exist but uh yeah it's funny at scale it kind of it becomes a little bit less uh less modern in some ways and some solutions still use like origin for want a better word but uh having probably a caching strategy in some place in place within wordpress where you're not like just rendering every time you come make a request for a page um but you are um uh probably have a relatively light touch hung on cdn maybe or something like that um the bigger publishers tend to shy away from that because they're they're nervous of security and things like that but yeah that's a i did did give a disclaimer for this slide hopefully that was kind of made halfway sense but if not you can tell me afterwards um and one thing i thought would be worth mentioning a lot it kind of comes back to the print thing i think there's still it's still a mere it's still an emerging thing up to your point but uh quite a lot of publishers like editions uh with the web it's typically or it has been uh the last one here which is the timeline you know the the latest content comes first so you you publish something just now and you want to get that out and it'll go to the top of the list and they'll say okay people really will read that and it'll just push down as new content comes in um quite a lot of publishers um still think in a print way you know they're not probably digitally mind is the wrong word but um they actually like the fact that they're editors they create content they create collections they create uh an overall reading experience and includes it specifically that okay this is our big story and our big story should be at the top like for four hours or nine hours depending on how big the story is and it should only move when i say so it doesn't it doesn't they don't want it to be free for all set because some content is never really important enough to make it that top part and it's not something that wordpress does naturally it kind of wants to be a timeline based thing but obviously it's completely possible and it's partly it comes into page builders kind of can do it and we see we've seen kind of a rise of those you've got like sort of a halfway house which is kind of collection management we're okay timelines there but you'll create widgets or rely on a third party um that takes your content and then surfaces them into sidebars and uh but blocks of content in the middle and things like that um and uh there's plugins such as like zoningator um that allows you to within wordpress to create little collections of ordered content that you can place however you like um and just spend a second on on a few workflows so and this is relevant within wordpress we would map to the equivalent of roles you know we have roles in wordpress it goes from a contributor to author to editor to admin to super admin and when you map those to people it doesn't quite match to publishing you know a lot of people need to be almost administrators it kind of jumps quite quickly because they need almost a complete tool set but they shouldn't have a complete complete tool set because they shouldn't be self-publishing right to the front because an editor will be very annoyed if they do so but the type of people you get uh within this chain is it kind of starts out and that's sort of wire reporters thing you've got some sort of uh story that's come in somehow to the top um a sub editor some of these roles kind of reverse a little bit but some a sub editor may be the one responsible for picking up that uh editor that they can in some way getting it ready for whatever uh section or uh medium that they are responsible for uh they'll push you to a section editor which actually make a choice about whether it it belongs in their section and and possibly do some more edit to it or uh push it back up the chain if it's not quite ready uh a deputy editor who will then start shouting it's probably the last two um and tell them that they've done a terrible job and it's not fit for print and possibly push it back down the chain again they do shout a lot well the further up each chain and publishing you get the more shouty and they curse a lot as well that they're kind of angry people i like them they're really good fun but yeah it's working in and publishing can be quite fraught at times um and then you'll have an overall editor which for the most part won't have a final say he'll usually get involved uh posthumously if something goes wrong or they feel a story isn't shoot isn't as prominent as should be they'll get stuck into the fray and make decisions and act as publishers do and then the the things that left is kind of a repeat of partly what was on the previous slide but uh within print you've got an edition based uh they can be more particularly about layout which you mentioned a web uh which uh sometimes starts in print but it can be unique confidence the web it's updated through the day uh mobile there's a lot of responsive sites uh but uh there are a lot of publishers that do unique layouts and and specifically create content for mobile and that might be to an app or uh there's still m dots around uh although a say responsive is kind of taken over in that year but they do exist um and within tablets kind of hanging in there a lot of a lot of publishers have kind of lost interest in tablet and not so much for subscription based services and people who offer paywalls etc and because actually tablets the closest you get to print um I previously worked for uh The Times newspaper uh in the UK um which are one of the bigger kind of paywall based uh uh publishers out there and they they love their tablet solution they very much offer a fully curated design uh they put a huge amount of investment into making tablet and and they charge accordingly for that it's it's the it's the backbone of their digital subscription model um and it's a good experience well I'm a bit biased because I helped build it but um and uh this is is this something that I can't imagine word press here but image workflow in another fairly big area uh what publishers need to do is part of an image workflow is they need to source the images lots of images come in from all sorts of different sources like getty or off-wire or more more recently like social media etc somebody needs to thin that out and get all of that content into a fit state for for a printer for a web or whatever that might be um and uh they might need to pay for that content it's coming from getty it might have a specific license applied to they it's cut into all sorts of tiers uh for web they typically a lot of publishers don't pay even though they should because there's no actual mechanism for them to track it properly because partly because they might be using something like word press and word press doesn't have support for something like that it's very hard to to monitor that usage it just gets sent out um so a lot of them will pay for a kind of almost like global licenses where they can put out any images you want but it's it's beneficial for them to able to track and invoice all those things completely apical print um but they would they would like to do it in web 2 it's just sometimes the tool set can't do it um and you've got different teams in that as well you've got like uh usually a picture desk uh who does this all all this organizing and pushing it up to copy editors and saying a copy editor will write a rant email to a uh uh a picture desk saying that you know the the image that they have on the home page isn't right and we need to get a better one and they'll go off and they'll create a set of options and uh and there's there's there's a lot of uh specific platforms uh specifically around this you know that there's cms's for images if you like um can't think of the top of my head i've used quite a few but i can't think of their name um and but some people just uh might use email you know they'll fire emails around between these pictured editors and copy editors and stuff and they'll take that attachment upload directly into your cms it might be wordpress um or a lot of people use both they'll have this thing for managing it but ultimately they'll use something a little bit more dependable in an arcade like email um to be able to push these assets around and get them into uh said platform um and uh they also do things like uh you know producing composite images uh again within wordpress you know you've you've got some editing tools in there uh like cropping and uh some basic image enhancement things uh and and they're good um but they typically won't fit uh publishers use case you know that they'll usually have adobe open somewhere uh photoshop and they'll have to actively do some work on on every image um as they come come composites being one of those um but they would love for that to be in wordpress they would love not to have to jump out because they have to pay people to do it and all all these operations want to slim down but but they can't because the nature of the businesses they want to produce as good a product as they can um and what wordpress does right now is allows you to upload images there's kind of a basic relatively basic search there i say basic is kind of unfair to it but uh again when you see what a publisher actually needs at scale um they if you've got a uh a standard wordpress gallery workflow and there's literally hundreds of images coming in possibly over the hour or over the day um trying to find it within that thumbnail gallery is quite hard and uh there's no they can't really salvage the system from that and so they come up with all sort of creative ways of managing it but but yeah you can't i say you can't but it's quite difficult to use wordpress to manage management as as they these guys do at scale um and uh yeah i say there's cropping there and they all use cropping within wordpress we've had success with that but they'll usually not use the out-of-the-box cropping they'll use set plugin to do that for them um and uh yeah and then because they didn't want to bore everyone i could kind of go into the same level of detail for all these as well but i want because it'll i'll be here all night but uh video kind of similar to to uh to images in a way but uh typically they're not most people in the right way shy away from building their own uh video workflow system uh every uh like uh uala or bright cove are some of the uh some of the third parties that do this as a business and they have their cms specifically for for managing video and again where wordpress ties in is fine you've got this management but then you need to get it into wordpress somehow um some people want to get a short code and then that short code for a given video then gets ready on the front end um some people actually import all of those videos into a custom gallery type thing so they can actually work with those uala videos directly within the cms and without having to kind of have the two systems open so it allows kind of tidy uh transitioning of data uh advertising marketing uh third party apps just that picture that i had before just gets bigger and bigger like you just all of these have the same if not bigger types of systems and workflows that are that are just as big as that kind of first slide and they all have their own workflows and everything else and it's just a wider ecosystem but the end result is it goes into wordpress one way or another you know all these different things that all happen in all different ways and but wordpress kind of models along and takes all of it and gets it together to be able to actually publish the website but it's it's just much bigger than that um and i'm just going to spend a lot of i've got some things around around the type of tools actually in wordpress that facilitate some of these things uh so there's one of the benefits obviously of wordpress is a huge ecosystem of of integrations and apps for all better word uh within within publishing it becomes a much smaller list most uh us as developer a development agency typically shy away from just an e-plug and we don't we don't typically take things just off wpr and hope that they're okay you know we over time we've collected a subset of the right tool for the right job for seo we might have three plugins that you would kind of we would rely on and turn to something we built for ourselves or for analytics you know there's there's x amount of plugins it's kind of a finite subset of that ecosystem um that we that we use um but yeah here's some some ones you probably would have heard of before we've got one for video here obviously youtube that you know for embedding uh twitter uh chartbeat for for uh for analytics and making better decisions about content etc um and uh this is kind of a a trend item but uh and it ties to the addition thing partly but we see a lot of publishers asking for layout management um and it kind of comes back to that collection thing before but they want moral control over the end result the end product they want it to look a certain way and uh they don't want to just have it in a relatively stale kind of uh uh free for all and uh having page builders and layout managers etc uh they see is the answer to that they're hard to build i don't think there's any de facto way of doing it at least not yet um and uh we recently and i was involved in this one for the sun we ended up kind of building our own uh based on specifically to their requirements and it was a wasiwag uh we actually built it kind of in customizer was in wordpress but we didn't use a lot of customizer it was just a way of uh kind of housing our our our tool um and it's uh um i think it's angler based um and uh it allows you to sort of dynamically build a preset grid and layout so they can choose different types of layouts this one is very simple it's just one big grid but you could have that followed by four more and ten more and an advert etc and you can manage all that and this is all of the content that's in wordpress available to see select and click into your sort of canvas um and it allows you to uh handle images you can take images specifically and put it in play i mean this this gift shows you actually editing the content in line it does all those type of things and it works really well and and the editor is really happy with it um and uh it was uh yeah it was it was tough i think it was times when they almost wanted to make it simpler than it was it was it was a pretty tough undertaking but what we did it but um and but the end result is uh under the hood of this is uh it actually generates jason and then within php we we render that instruction that jason gives us to to output that to the front end so it ends up going back to wordpress thing we don't have a we don't have an angular front end or anything like that it's still a very uh wordpress thing uh and these are some of the tools that we use for for some of the areas we talked about and and you would know quite a lot but uh for analytics i'd say chart baked optimizely uh which is ab testing i don't know whether i should give my opinions on these of these things but i should do ab testing i don't know it depends on which field you're in um for media get him get the images which i mentioned uh tooling for handling responsive images watermarks perhaps uh for monetization you know you'll be handling adcode manager uh tiny pass which is subscription plugin uh for performance arguably uh well apple news uh instant articles all those types of things that have come on along recently uh wordpress uh they've they started from publishing they're they're freely available um but but word publishers were there first to create the plugins that handle these formats um and some of them are built for a cell by ourselves actually but some were built for somebody by some other agencies as well to support these platforms but they came out really quick but now they're freely available for everyone to use um and they will help your uh seo etc as well because the faster page is the higher ranks within google etc um and for social you know some of those um for uh and then for user management which is pretty important uh some of these are are are feeling a little bit maybe a little bit uh dated now but they've been around for ages and they are kind of the go-to but uh co-author plus being able to specify more than one uh author of a given article sounds like a super simple thing to do but even that can get kind of complex because they have uh five different authors for a given article and they want to credit them all but actually only twos and wordpress so you can't select them you have to put them in as custom fields and how the template handles all those it can get like weirdly complex and the plugin itself when he goes halfway to giving me a solution to that and sometimes actually you talk yourself out of it and end up doing it a different way or just just relying on free text perhaps uh and this is uh for my opinion of what trends are and they might not be everyone's but we we're seeing more and more uh this sort of uh increased need to manage media better within wordpress so it's a problem statement that kind of specified earlier is you've got a straight list and but at scale it becomes a little bit cumbersome and a lot more publishers uh have been asking for better tooling around this you know and from what I hear I've never got involved but uh the media manager within wordpress is a little bit difficult to work with maybe that's why it hasn't quite met me these needs but then who is who is wordpress built for I think it is still built for the community you know it's not built for these publishers so and it you know it's good for us because as agencies you know we're brought in to help with these problems and built on top of it but I think it could end up being back going back into the community to help like people at a much smaller scale as well and because some of this tooling could be beneficial uh page builders which I mentioned there's more everybody wants a page builder um and the rest api I'm some most of you might know that uh the rest api uh with a bit of uh uh sort of drama within the wordpress community the rest api went in part of the rest api went into wordpress core um uh the drama there was a lot of people felt that it should be kind of a separate plugin thing not necessarily part of core but but there's been a shift to the rest api and that'll pave the way for uh better tooling because you can kind of supplement uh wordpress with things or build things on top of it using an api not necessarily with the wordpress itself which can be a good thing and uh with the rise of front end only applications like using react and uh you know name your name your name your front end technology it allows the wordpress to act purely as a as a back end something that allows you to manage content and then separately you can build your your trendy front end um as you want it to be while not having to do anything to glue those two together your api is kind of your your um your your mechanism through that and I put in a multi-platform there it was actually because I was running out of trends to put in I stuck it in at the end but um you know I think the problem statement of being able to publish across different devices and audiences and platforms and stuff it continues to involve it's a bit of no problem now you know people are doing responsive and they know mobile is important but uh within big big publishers especially even though they're getting like maybe 60 or 70 percent mobile traffic and they're still building desktop based web applications you know the designer will come in with it with the desktop first and then the the mobile is kind of an afterthought and a lot of startups as they tend to do are a little bit more ahead on that and they're they're creating like mobile first designs and interactions and UX etc so I think that's something that'll continue to evolve as it tends to do but yeah that's that's it really um I hope that was interesting and uh there's something you could take away from something all right oh yeah sorry questions thanks so what do you think a publisher is really interested in WordPress it's kind of a it's kind of a bottom up thing it's uh that a lot of journalists like WordPress or have used WordPress um they might have it for their personal blog or you know they they they've used it so a lot of enterprise solutions are a little bit cumbersome perhaps or a little bit long-winded but selling a new CMS that happens to WordPress to that general collection of people is relatively easy um and uh yeah and we've met and it has been it's continues to be a struggle I think there's still a sort of a residing hesitation from enterprise companies to choose something that's open source you know they hear good things about it but they don't necessarily want to make that jump but over over time that keeps becoming less and less and less of a thing um anyone else for another question because I got lots so another question could you like give a quick like a scope of the typical publisher stack like you know from the post and and it's not just WordPress it's like WordPress local um company called Tech in Asia so it's got React running in front end WordPress in the back and yeah yeah you've mentioned most of them um but uh no I think yeah there is a there is a sort of an emerging trend of having a sort of decoupled solutions like that where you might have WordPress there with the API like I mentioned you might have a React front end uh that uh you know performance is hugely important so you'll see um the the CDN slotted on top of probably both of those with some caching in place um I think no matter what scale you're at um whether you're a small business or a publisher you might end up doing parts of that anyway you know it is a it is a sensible sort of decoupling of things um but it's kind of I suppose one point in that is it's it's still relatively new to WordPress I think um WordPress not in a bad way was was kind of WordPress you know you can do everything in it there's no reason to try to be more flamboyant about it like it does templating it does front end it manages content etc like there's no reason to to to separate it out in theory um but a lot of people do for for all sorts of reasons and and WordPress is a good fit for that yeah what are the most typical complaints or limitations that you hear about WordPress I'm switching from Drupal to WordPress yep publisher yeah I would love to hear the downsides of WordPress yeah of course um it's a lot of them aren't really that unique to WordPress I guess but um you know if you're if you're not careful you know it can be a little bit and unperform it I mean it's I think it personally I think it's probably more performant that it has better performance a lot of CMSs um but if you know if you're if you're not managing how many queries it's doing for metadata I mean it's actually relevant to the advanced custom fields things perhaps where if you do advanced if you're using advanced custom fields at scale and and big publishers given too much freedom they might actually create like really bad loops by accident and bring the whole site down or making super slow and and yeah you you have to be you have to be super vigilant to that and but for a publisher sales what they know about I think it probably comes back to the this wider ecosystem thing they might feel it's a little bit limited to start with this is it all the stuff I talked is a little bit insider but they they do want all of this extra tooling that WordPress doesn't come come with um and it's easier for them to pick something or try to pick something that does it all you know Doug there's there's solutions out there that does print plus workflow plus image you know why not just have that um but it's kind of cumbersome it doesn't really stack up and you know it's easy enough to to to dissuade them from that and then choose something like WordPress um and I think kind of leaning it back to positives again uh you know the it WordPress is not free you know if you're if you're if you're an enterprise consumer you know you're paying for development you're paying for hosting you know all these other things you're obviously not paying for any licenses or or getting that thing off thing but I think there's kind of this this can I think one that they almost defeat themselves by initially thinking oh we're doing something free we'll save loads of money and then you have to kind of explain them your wall like it is going to be cheaper in the long run um but it's not that it's not super cheap you know you'll you'll see the bill and there will be a bill at the end of the day questions yep yeah of course uh so publishers as in uh all the people that they were kind of in work on my workflow they'll do everything in production you know they're very yolo about things uh and uh but within digital you know within our side of actually developing things you know uh development staging uh uet you name it uh you know fairly big ua uh qa undertakings etc you know it's it's a big part of it you know you you're building a a lot of a lot of different components you know they don't always fit together as both like any like most technical projects and uh to match this type of scale you've gotten equivalently big digital undertaking that yeah all those things completely come into play um there's no like from local to production setups going on for sure but as far as content goes yeah they'll typically do it in one place what's important to them is they can respond to change you know they make a mistake or they choose the wrong layout um i think i think we tend uh as builders of these things we we try not to give them tooling where they can hang themselves you know you don't want them to come back and say you know you give us the ability for us to break it and you have to explain to them that yeah you asked us to give you that tooling to allow you to break the site like we just don't allow that to happen in the first place and they will ask for it they'll ask for tooling they'll give them all this freedom but if you give it to them you could be opening up a lot of problems so yeah we try to keep it as as contained as possible okay good thank you okay so i'm just going to do